TIAI April 11

[GINAFELICIA]

I agree it sounds morbid to use a real dead body but actually the body is just an empty shell - at least this is what I think I believe after being with somebody in the moment of death. I had the feeling that the soul left that body with the last breathe, of course I can't be sure but that was the feeling at that moment. The days after, looking at that still body - that feeling became stronger.

Oh what do we really know.....

Anyway, I don't think it is so immoral or sick to use a dead body, maybe because of my personal experiences.

[GINAFELICIA]

Anyway, if the hoax was planned for years, Michael probably had the home-hospital ride all solved and with the FBI assistance I really don't think it was that difficult to get a fresh body.

But what if - as we have reasons to believe in doubles - the story that surfaced right after death - about a person with a terminal illness who agreed to die for Michael(I know sounds more than morbid) is actually true?

And please don't tell me Michael wouldn't do that. We really don't know what he would do.
After all, MJ himself was the one with a big smile on his face at James Brown funeral, I know I saw a pic with him and others in front of the coffin and they were all smiling. And I don't mean it in a bad way, what I mean is that i believe Michael is in full awareness about what life means and what death means. He's not a child who can't handle the death thought. I think he knows very well that death is just the necessary step to another existence.
After all he was the one playing with the zoombies in Thriller at 25. He was afraid of death? I don't know, but I think he gave it a lot of thinking trying to understand, and when you think alot about it - death becomes a rather familiar notion, not so scary anymore.

This is just speculation of course.

Anyway, there is one theory I don't believe in : no body in the ambulance. I don't think that was the case because the risk was too big for someone to actually see through the window that the stretcher was empty.

But what if there's another possibility: a state close to death induced to Michael himslef with some drugs (is this possible - I don't know) and then he was revived later at UCLA?

No matter how I look at this, the easiest and less risky way is to have a dead body involved.

[paula-c]

To do all this Michael not acted alone, he has to have the help of some government office, (FBI) i do not know, and of course that there are people involved ( some bodyguards,paramedics, someone in the hospital and in the coroner's office) was advised otherwise, it would be impossible.
If there was no body then to say that the paramedics lie, to declare that they thought that Michael seemed to a frail elderly and did not recognize him, could have been saved that statement.

[AnaMarcia]

There are drugs that cause even the fake death. Remember the movie Sherlock Holmes? The bandit took a drug like this and Wodson failed to realize he was still alive. I've also seen this drug being present in telenovelas from Brazil. Anybody here watched "Path of the Indies"?  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
But speaking of real life, own Propofol can do this.
If this was used, the paramedics are out of play, but dr. Cooper and the coroner has to be in!
I do not think we will have an answer on that.
TS will still say that no matter what happened at UCLA, but this to me is the key to everything.
I know the alarm shoot for some reason, and that's no lie, as has been confirmed in a program for reporting serious about Michael's death by a Brazilian doctor who works in the pediatric UCLA. She said the alarm went off and everyone was out of the hospital where he was playing songs by Michael at high volumes. She could not tell what had happened in the fact, only after they learned that the alarm was false.

[ignisaeternus]

First, thank you TS for this new thread.  Lots of great questions and lots of great theories so far. 

 

I have always been leaning against the dead body theory, but Souza made some great points, and the scenario is very plausible.  Still- after thinking about this for a while now and reading all the posts so far- I agree with Bec- and others who go with the “no dead body was used” for many of the reasons listed:

-        It seems the easiest way to have least people involved is to just use a dummy.  If we supposed the 911 call was fake, then that would mean the paramedics involvement also needed to be “fake.”- meaning they knew there was no dead body.  If there was one, and the paramedics came to the scene not knowing what was up, then how does that explain the 911 call?  So- simplest solution: fake 911 call, fake emergency call, paramedics knew what was going on and that there would be NO dead body and no emergency.  This also explain the slow drive and stupid backing out attempts.  Had they thought this was a real emergency (with a body)- they would still have pressed to get back to UCLA ASAP. 
-        This is the strongest point Bec brought up and also is my main point: NO paramedic would be fooled with a dead body.  Rigor would have set in.  Also, let’s say, hey, it was a warm room. The warm room would actually also affect faster decomposition and smells.  I don’t care if Murray was a higher authority- real paramedics would NOT have attempted to revive a smelly corpse.  Further down the line- again- why have a corpse?  NOONE (docs, coroner, etc) would be fooled and work for hours on a dead body.  So, it stands to reason that the docs and coroner were in on it- and if they were- why bother with a dead body at all(on a side note: I think there is another significance to the hot room..but that is another thread)?
-        Another strong point against dead body: Logistics.  Sure, we can say it might not be hard to find a dead body on June 25.  BUT- you’d have to transport it, have legal issues cleared with next of kin, match the dead person to MJ somewhat, etc.  If we say, assisted suicide which would cut down on all this, the issue remains that we now again have more people involved in transport etc.  So, as in science’s use of Yokam’s Razor- why not go with the simplest solution possible which might be the most likely: in this case- no body at all. 
-        Another point: the heart beat report as also addressed by Bec.  The dead body would not have had a heart beat.  And if that was a fake report- again, why bother to have a dead body.  Those same people giving the fake report would have to be in the know- so again: easier to have no dead body.
-        The PR issue about “MJ using a dead body” is certainly of concern as well.  I also think that this sticking point might be what most would remember.  Also- I am considering Michael’s religious and moral views.  I know in JW religion when you are dead that is it- you are “asleep” basically until judgment day.  BUT- I don’t think they would ok it to haul dead bodies around when it is just as easy to use a dummy on the stretcher.  I know, MJ was not a practicing JW- BUT he kept many of their views and he was raised with those views- which left a strong background.  So, this is not one of the stronger points, and is more opinion than fact- but to me it still plays in.
-        I used to think Michael was NOT in the ambulance.  Now, knowing that he was so hands on with everything and having seen that mysterious “third” person, I think he might have been.  The only thing that stomps me is that the simplest way would have been to just go to the airport straight from Carolwood while all the attention was on the ambulance.  If he went to the hospital (and it is true, attention would not have been on him had he been in disguise, or simply not in “Michael Jackson getup: no wig, no makeup…) it is possible the kids said goodbye to him there- which would account for their emotional state.  On the other hand, that again involves more people (helicopter pilots etc) to get him to the airport.  Simpler and cleaner version: to get to the airport as hinted by Jermaine.  Which is what I am going with.

[Victory]

.... just a thought.
If Michael used too fool the pappz with a dummy in an ambo. He must already know how to pull that trick off, right? He have done that many times before according to Lou F. So maybe that´s just whats happend on June 25? The same people helped him this day to, they know how to act and they know how to fool the pappz since they done it before. Does anyone know, pictures etc how he pulled it off before? Who helped him then and what ambo did he used?
Maybe I´m way out of line, or maybe it´s just this simple....

L.O.V.E

[taty_2crazy]

Michael had just key ppl involved in this, the less the better.FBI and EMT´s are part of this list.As to the body i think it was used a dummy cause it´s easier to deal with and to transport i don´t imagine having a smelly body inside the house and also they needed a corpse (as real as possible )if somebody would look through the amgulance windows.I think it would be against his believes and moral views using somebody´s body.The autopsy report is fake and imo it was already written at the beginning at the hoax.Michael is a so hand on person with everything he does.

[MsTrinity333]

* Yes autopsy paperwork can be fake vie FBI involvement.

* 911 call is in question because there's four versions and the call wasn't made from Carlwood correct?

* EMT's know the difference between a dummy and a dead body.  :lol:  They say it looked like he had been dead for hours. You can keep a body cool to slow down rig. without "freezing" it which would be, pardon the pun; a dead give a way. Then place in a warm room to bring temp up to realistic expectations... I also heard eyes were open.

* You don't intubate or do CPR on a LIVE person playing dead. Anesthesia is called frequently to the ER or on the floors for intubation because it takes a host of sedatives and muscle relaxants to anesthetize the patient prior to putting the tube down the throat. Otherwise it is a major fight with a lot of people holding all parts of the body. No way was that going to happen to MJ or anyone else for acting purposes. There is no way anyone in the awake state would be intubated and have CPR done.  :shock:

* MJ was admitted to UCLA under the name Soule Shaun. But in one of kittycat's conversations with Assist. Chief Coroner Ed Winter, he told her "Gershwin is hospital code for hi-profile cases". You all remember Gershwin, the blood work is in his name and one of the toe tags is in his name, the other being MJ. We know toe tags are not placed on live patients, even if they are comatose.   He left blood work and there was a urine sample in the room.

* Body logistics not that difficult for FBI.  Let's not assume Michael had anything to do with this...it may not have been his choice, but was done because it had to be.   :oops: This may have something to do with a sting op.  In one of my last conversations with Kitty she told me doctors were going down in CA, AZ & Florida.  These are docs MJ had contact with 10-20 yrs ago.  Coincidence?

[Im_convincedmjalive]

This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

That's really the bottom line in my opinion.

This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.

All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.

And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.

Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.

In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.

1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.

2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.

Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.

Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)

But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.

So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???

Response to your #2 point bec.

TS wrote
5-8. Zone for MJ Info

Another TMZ article, just a few days before, was titled: “Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA” You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. Here again, if you accept the whole story, then forget the hoax; because the whole story is discussing when MJ died (at home, or UCLA)—it’s not discussing if MJ died.

Or you can connect the dots, and recognize that “Michael was alive” is the main clue—and much of the rest is unnamed or unverified “sources”. Anything that is not readily verifiable, and especially anything that is unnamed “sources”, should go straight in the garbage.

This is part of what Michael is trying to teach us. We are not to blindly trust tabloid media—or even mainstream media. Yet, just like TMZ, at times there is reliable and valuable information in the media.

For example, video interviews; it is very easy to fabricate false information in writing, but it is much harder to fabricate a video interview with someone. And even if someone did create a fake video interview (using a double, or a computer-generated image, etc): the real person would probably hear about it, and deny that it was really him.

And at this point, I should mention that as far as possible: TIAI Revealed, and the Updates, have used the above mentioned and similar types of reliable sources for information. So don’t accept something just because TIAI says it; but on the other hand, don’t fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources and documentation. Rejecting reliable information isn’t much if any better (maybe worse) than accepting unreliable information. Some people believe everything (gullible), others believe nothing (stubborn); if we want the truth, we must find a balance between those extremes.

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[Im_convincedmjalive]

This explanation below from TS is in regards to theories about how many people would need to be involved in the know of the hoax. Theories that have way to many people involved is unrealistic IMO. 8-)
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TS wrote:
Besides, the entire state of California is not in on the hoax. MJ has been planning this hoax for many years; and he had the time and influence to get a few key people in the right positions to pull it off—and yes, even government agencies still have some good people in them. Look at history: many times people in high positions have stood up against the corruption in their own system (government, or church, etc).

But MJ did not involve large quantities of people. In fact, the “three-way theory” is basically correct You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login this theory states that the fewer people “in on it”, the better (although more than three are actually involved, and the “three-way theory” does allow for more than three).

Also, as far as possible, legal loopholes were used. Nevertheless, with a hoax of this magnitude and importance: whether the line was ever crossed, between being inside or outside of legal loopholes, is a question that probably doesn’t even need to be answered.

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4-37. Hints on the “How’s” of the Hoax

In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?

I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.

For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.

I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?

Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.

This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.

Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

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4-38. Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”

Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive.

All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls, thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).

The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).

Some have said that Forest Lawn (FL) would need to be in on the hoax; and maybe they are, but maybe not. If there was an actual dead body used during at least some of the process: then a dead body could’ve been at FL, even though it was not MJ. And sooner or later, the family could say: “We’ve decided to bury MJ somewhere else; but for privacy and security reasons, we want the public to think that he is buried here.”

They might even have FL sign confidentiality agreements, promising not to let anyone know that MJ was not buried at FL. Of course FL would still get paid, because the family did purchase space there You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login and since FL got their money, they would not care where MJ was actually buried, and that would be the end of it—FL might never imagine that MJ is still alive.

This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

That's really the bottom line in my opinion.

This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.

All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.

And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.

Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.

A real body creates Realism in the way the events happen. Not everything can be seen by the public as acting. Improv is the name of the game. This hoax goes way deeper than an image repair.  8-)

Using 1 or maybe 2 different corpses at different times is a small thing in the scheme of how big this hoax is when it comes to exposing harmful things, getting those harmful things taken off the market and starting a process to get Propofol changed to a controlled drug. The way things are now Propofol is an uncontrolled drug and can be obtained very easily by a Dr. who has a liscense and also by a person with a script. The pharmacy in Nevada was distributing Propofol to Murray as if it was no big deal. That is why that pharmacy is now shut down.  8-)

The events that have happened since MJ died because of Propofol have been incredible. MJ used himself as bait for a sting operation that far out weighs a cadaver being used in the process. He also used Propofol as the drug of choice so that it would cause great attention to that drug. The Propofol from a manufacture making it was shown to have tainted lot numbers. The manufactures have stopped making it here in the USA. There is a timeline link below that shows how far back some issues started and caused faulty infusion pumps to be recalled.  8-)

Quote from my 2nd post in this thread.

I believe that one part of the sting operation deals with the drug problems in Hollywood and the over prescribing of meds by the doctors. I also believe it has to do with FDA issues and the manufactors of Propofol. Big pharmaceuticals manufactors do not care what goes into the drugs or the side effects as long as they make a profit. Tainted medicines are resold all the time in order to dump them and make a profit.

Here is part of it’s ALL for L.O.V.E.

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TS_comments wrote:
However, if key people in the FBI are cooperating with LAFD and MJ: then when the truth comes out, all they have to do is show success in catching some public corruption through this process--and all is well that ends well. After all, once again, that is their "top priority among criminal investigations" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.

[2good2btrue]

I am just going to throw a few pictures out there for you guys to think about..

Don't forget Craig Harvey is an actor as well..... Craig Harvey was in the Coroners Van and collected the body for transportation.....

Different angles of the same pictures paint a different story.......

[2good2btrue]

And this picture of a close up of the arrival at UCLA, from a defferent angle...

Also a red car, similar to "that day" is parked outside carolwood dve, when doing a google search.

Different angles can change the theories.

[MJhasSpoken]

I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?

[dom425]

I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?

Wow, now that's food for thought.

I think that's an excellent defense to use.........  But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.

I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and  take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.

Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake  the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense.

 Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. :oops:

[MJhasSpoken]

I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?

Wow, now that's food for thought.

I think that's an excellent defense to use.........  But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.

I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and  take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.

Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake  the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense.

 Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. :oops:

Michael likes to be different and go beyond what everybody else has done. Elvis' doctor went to trial and was found not guilty...if MJ wanted to make his trial even better than that he could make that Murray's defense just that...who knows?

About the media, some might look at the clues like you said and realize MJ is alive...but the fans might not, they already think Murray is already rubbing salt in the wound by 'following' Janet, walking down the street like nothing happened etc.

Or maybe Murray's defense will be that MJ killed himself, if this is supposed to be a contrast to MJ's trial in 2005.