TIAI April 11

[TS_comments]

It’s now time for the third level!     8-) 

The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital.  And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA?  MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?

Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better; #2 once you have a theory, try to debunk your own theory; #3 we are looking for a theory that has at least two different strong points, which nobody can debunk.

Let’s also review what has been established so far.  Nobody has debunked the main point established in the first level: “… the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ’s face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09.” {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.  As always, if you want to try and debunk something, please inform yourself first of what has already been discussed; I will usually ignore questions or objections which are just a repeat, and have already been answered.

In the second level, there have been a few strong points in support of FBI involvement; and nobody has debunked any of these strong points {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.

First and foremost, as in other areas of the hoax, the numerology speaks volumes; Andrea recently had an excellent post on FBI numerology, as well as some Joe/Joseph information {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}. 

The Elvis connection is another strong point in support of MJ having FBI help, and explains a lot on how this hoax could be pulled off successfully with LAFD and other government entities involved {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.


Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial!  “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year.  Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.

Last and maybe least—but still a big clue, is Marlon wearing the FBI cap on more than one occasion
{You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.

In spite of the fact that nobody has debunked any of the above points, there have been a couple of general questions or objections to FBI involvement—including but not limited to who oversees the FBI {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.  And there were several good replies
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There were also questions about why, if the FBI is involved, would there be any numerology and other clues—wouldn’t the FBI do the fake death so well, that nobody would know a thing?  This is a very good question; but there are good answers.  First of all, we know that Elvis had government help; and we also know that he used numerology and other clues.

But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment.  “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login; see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.

If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment.  However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.

The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.  Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it. 

On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.

[PureLove]

I'm more than ready to get to the third level.  I was so excited to see your new post which starts with Marlon's picture with the FBI cap on and a huge smile on his face. Thank you for the post TS. Now back to reading your post.  8-)

[lilwendy]

So TS... what's the 4-1-1? hahaha  For my ESL friends, 4-1-1 means information and was a number we used to call for information.  I just found it funny that you posted new information on April 11, 2011 at 4:11pm (PST).

So thanks for a new post TS and I will read it now and do my best to participate in the discussion.  

[MJhasSpoken]

Awesome we leveled up...it makes me feel like I'm playing COH.

[paula-c]

another puzzle .. to think :geek:

[katy (MJFAN7)]

4-1-1 :lol:

Anyways, I'm in a hurry, so for now I've read through most of it, I wasn't able to click the links so I'll come back later.

But, in my opinion, I believe that there was someone/something in the ambulance, but not Michael, whether it be a double or a dummy, im not sure. The ambulance picture was definitely photoshopped but as we've stated many times before, that was taken before June 25th so it doesn't really matter with this topic. If the paramedic's aren't in on it, I think they would know it's a dummy, I mean they've all probably had plenty experience with being up close with bodies like that, so wouldn't they realize that it was a dummy, especially since they would most likely have been checking the pulse and seeing if he was breathing or not? Also, if they're not in on it and it was a double, then that probably would explain why it doesn't look like Michael, because every double that we know of looks different than Michael in a distinct way. But there might be doubles that we don't even know exist because of their extreme resemblance to Michael, for example, 'Barry Shaw', so maybe it could have been one of them. I highly doubt it was the real Michael, because wasn't he already on his way to the "--airport........i mean hospital". I'm not really sure about the FBI thing yet, I didn't read enough into the end of the post, so, I'll be back later to re-read this & I really want to hear everyone else's responses.

P.S. I find it interesting that you used a picture of Tito, Marlon & Jermaine, of course because Marlon has the FBI hat, but also there's the whole twitter thing going on with those 3. Jermaine is saying Marlon's twitter is fake, 'Marlon' is saying it's really him (on twitter), and Tito is saying it's him. Might not be done on purpose, but it's still interesting.

[bec]

No body was used.

Forensic science rules it out. Altering the temp of the room would not confuse the coroner. Body core temp is only one of many factors used to determine time of death and when it is, room temperature at the scene is automatically plugged into the formula.
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Rigor, pressure within the eye, appearance of the eye, blood pooling, and other little things like stomach contents and their condition are all used to determine time of death. Unless someone actually did die at Carrolwood on the morning of 6/25/09 (which the numerology proves is statistically unlikely), a corpse could not be used to fool anyone.

Here's a good pdf file about it:
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a quote from the opening of the article:

"Repeated experience teaches the investigator to be wary of relying on any single observation
for estimating the time of death (or "duration of the post mortem interval"), and he wisely avoids
making dogmatic statements based on an isolated observation". (Ref. 12 at p. 151.)
"Considering the variables which influence the rate of body heat loss, the best one can say about
the reliability of algor mortis as a post mortem clock is that it permits a rough approximation of
the time of death. Errors in over-estimating and under-estimating the post mortem interval based
on body cooling are common, even in the face of considerable experience by those making the
estimate. Body temperature as an indicator of the post mortem interval should be correlated with
all other phenomenon and observations utilised in establishing the time of death". (Ref. 12 at p.
164.)

[~Souza~]

But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment.  “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login; see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.

If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment.  However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.

Now I'm getting nervous... :shock: I will back-up the forum not only to my harddrive from now on, but I will make a copy of the back-up to a flashdrive every night and put it under my pillow when I go to sleep and I will let my killer cat guard another copy :lol:

This explains a lot about a lot of stuff I have been wondering about. I never thought staging a death could be seen as entrapment. It's providing oppurtunity, but it's not forcing anyone to commit a crime right? But I guess safety for all.

For me this explains the numerous hack attempts on this forum and the old ones as well, it also explains the importance of TMZ's role and your posts and I now understand why we need to come to a theory that would hold up in court. It might really have to hold up in court, lol. This is also why it really should hit the media.

This sting operation is very interesting, but it fries my brain at the moment. I will think about the dummy/double/corpse/air in the ambulance first.

[lilwendy]

another puzzle .. to think :geek:

I LOVE your thinking smiley!

@MJhasSpoken - what is COH?

[paula-c]

bec wrote:

No body was used.

Forensic science rules it out. Altering the temp of the room would not confuse the coroner. Body core temp is only one of many factors used to determine time of death and when it is, room temperature at the scene is automatically plugged into the formula.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... _death.htm
Rigor, pressure within the eye, appearance of the eye, blood pooling, and other little things like stomach contents and their condition are all used to determine time of death. Unless someone actually did die at Carrolwood on the morning of 6/25/09 (which the numerology proves is statistically unlikely), a corpse could not be used to fool anyone.

Here's a good pdf file about it:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... edeath.pdf
a quote from the opening of the article:


"Repeated experience teaches the investigator to be wary of relying on any single observation
for estimating the time of death (or "duration of the post mortem interval"), and he wisely avoids
making dogmatic statements based on an isolated observation". (Ref. 12 at p. 151.)
"Considering the variables which influence the rate of body heat loss, the best one can say about
the reliability of algor mortis as a post mortem clock is that it permits a rough approximation of
the time of death. Errors in over-estimating and under-estimating the post mortem interval based
on body cooling are common, even in the face of considerable experience by those making the
estimate. Body temperature as an indicator of the post mortem interval should be correlated with
all other phenomenon and observations utilised in establishing the time of death". (Ref. 12 at p.
164.)

but remember that the autopsy report is false, the person who possibly died an autopsy was made ​​law and of course that is not published, so it took so long to publish results, or maybe not if this person already had a medical history with the disease he had and there was no autopsy.

[~Souza~]

or maybe not if this person already had a medical history with the disease he had and there was no autopsy.

Good point paula.

[AnaMarcia]

Now I begin to understand the intent of TS. We will need have a complete theory of all levels. This should serve to help Michael and the people who helped him to justify legally. That's us we care about all this strange death, we knew from the beginning it was all a joke, because we investigate. Now we have to show coherent theories that suggest that was a great need and not just a blow.
If so, I guess until we have everything assembled, will be very difficult for Michael to return, so we are your soldiers of love! We have the role to help you with this, and if we want to see Michael soon have to work hard in the coming months.

Oh, TS ... I think I'm a little late with this conclusion, but I think it's clearer now.  :oops:

In relation to what came to UCLA, I get the theory of a double, which was used as prevention, if something went wrong. For me that was the same person that was seen in the garden and followed the ambulance and looks much like the spitting image of TII.

[MJhasSpoken]

another puzzle .. to think :geek:

I LOVE your thinking smiley!

@MJhasSpoken - what is COH?

It's a MMORPG called City of Heroes...everytime you get experience points it goes towards your leveling up and you get to choose new powers.

Also thinking about this whole FBI thing and what info the FBI would need from MJ, maybe it has to do with the Biggie case.

[2good2btrue]

POSTED>>>>>>>

Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:11 pm

Gotta go out now, but I'll be back...thanks TS.  You're my hero.  

[PureLove]

Ok, I want to start with something that confuses me about the possible participation of the EMTs. EMTs are in on the hoax theory sounds more plausible to me too. The dummy, double of MJ or healthy MJ in the ambulance would not be a problem for them as they know all about the hoax. And we have pictures of MJ (or a double) getting into the hospital sitting on the stretcher. This shows that the EMTs has to be in on the hoax. But where does this lead the EMTs explanation about the patient (old, fragile man) and the heated room? If they were in on the hoax why would they bother to make a comment like they didn't recognize the patient and he was looking like an old, fragile man? Couldn't they need to say the opposite and say that they saw Michael? Or was this because they knew about the hoax but it was just another clue for us to understand this is a hoax? What are your opinions about this?