Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators

Latest News => The Redirects => TIAI => The Plan (Qanon, TIAI, BACK) => TIAI ~ 2011 => Topic started by: TS_comments on April 11, 2011, 06:11:12 PM

Title: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on April 11, 2011, 06:11:12 PM
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4746/fbii.jpg)

It’s now time for the third level!   :D  8-)  :)

The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital.  And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA?  MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?

Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better; #2 once you have a theory, try to debunk your own theory; #3 we are looking for a theory that has at least two different strong points, which nobody can debunk.

Let’s also review what has been established so far.  Nobody has debunked the main point established in the first level: “… the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ’s face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185)}.  As always, if you want to try and debunk something, please inform yourself first of what has already been discussed; I will usually ignore questions or objections which are just a repeat, and have already been answered.

In the second level, there have been a few strong points in support of FBI involvement; and nobody has debunked any of these strong points {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461)}.

First and foremost, as in other areas of the hoax, the numerology speaks volumes; Andrea recently had an excellent post on FBI numerology, as well as some Joe/Joseph information {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514)}. 

The Elvis connection is another strong point in support of MJ having FBI help, and explains a lot on how this hoax could be pulled off successfully with LAFD and other government entities involved {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314370&#p314370 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314370&#p314370); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313872&#p313872 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313872&#p313872); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313381&#p313381 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313381&#p313381)}.


Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial!  “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year.  Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” {http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams (http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams)}.

Last and maybe least—but still a big clue, is Marlon wearing the FBI cap on more than one occasion
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1000#p320865 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1000#p320865); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6456&start=0#p103786 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6456&start=0#p103786)}.

In spite of the fact that nobody has debunked any of the above points, there have been a couple of general questions or objections to FBI involvement—including but not limited to who oversees the FBI {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1050#p321369 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1050#p321369)}.  And there were several good replies
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321814 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321814); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321843 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321843); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321890 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321890); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321894 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321894); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1100#p322044 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1100#p322044)}.

There were also questions about why, if the FBI is involved, would there be any numerology and other clues—wouldn’t the FBI do the fake death so well, that nobody would know a thing?  This is a very good question; but there are good answers.  First of all, we know that Elvis had government help; and we also know that he used numerology and other clues.

But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment.  “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation); see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment)}.

If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment.  However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.

The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.  Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it. 

On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 11, 2011, 06:16:59 PM
I'm more than ready to get to the third level. :D  I was so excited to see your new post which starts with Marlon's picture with the FBI cap on and a huge smile on his face. :D Thank you for the post TS. Now back to reading your post.  8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: lilwendy on April 11, 2011, 06:26:28 PM
So TS... what's the 4-1-1? hahaha  For my ESL friends, 4-1-1 means information and was a number we used to call for information.  I just found it funny that you posted new information on April 11, 2011 at 4:11pm (PST).

So thanks for a new post TS and I will read it now and do my best to participate in the discussion.  :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 11, 2011, 06:43:22 PM
Awesome we leveled up...it makes me feel like I'm playing COH.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 11, 2011, 06:43:57 PM
another puzzle .. to think :geek:
(http://smilies-gifs.com/pensando/4pensando.gif)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on April 11, 2011, 06:48:00 PM
4-1-1 :lol:

Anyways, I'm in a hurry, so for now I've read through most of it, I wasn't able to click the links so I'll come back later.

But, in my opinion, I believe that there was someone/something in the ambulance, but not Michael, whether it be a double or a dummy, im not sure. The ambulance picture was definitely photoshopped but as we've stated many times before, that was taken before June 25th so it doesn't really matter with this topic. If the paramedic's aren't in on it, I think they would know it's a dummy, I mean they've all probably had plenty experience with being up close with bodies like that, so wouldn't they realize that it was a dummy, especially since they would most likely have been checking the pulse and seeing if he was breathing or not? Also, if they're not in on it and it was a double, then that probably would explain why it doesn't look like Michael, because every double that we know of looks different than Michael in a distinct way. But there might be doubles that we don't even know exist because of their extreme resemblance to Michael, for example, 'Barry Shaw', so maybe it could have been one of them. I highly doubt it was the real Michael, because wasn't he already on his way to the "--airport........i mean hospital". I'm not really sure about the FBI thing yet, I didn't read enough into the end of the post, so, I'll be back later to re-read this & I really want to hear everyone else's responses.

P.S. I find it interesting that you used a picture of Tito, Marlon & Jermaine, of course because Marlon has the FBI hat, but also there's the whole twitter thing going on with those 3. Jermaine is saying Marlon's twitter is fake, 'Marlon' is saying it's really him (on twitter), and Tito is saying it's him. Might not be done on purpose, but it's still interesting.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 11, 2011, 06:53:45 PM
No body was used.

Forensic science rules it out. Altering the temp of the room would not confuse the coroner. Body core temp is only one of many factors used to determine time of death and when it is, room temperature at the scene is automatically plugged into the formula.
http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm)
Rigor, pressure within the eye, appearance of the eye, blood pooling, and other little things like stomach contents and their condition are all used to determine time of death. Unless someone actually did die at Carrolwood on the morning of 6/25/09 (which the numerology proves is statistically unlikely), a corpse could not be used to fool anyone.

Here's a good pdf file about it:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin ... edeath.pdf (http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf)
a quote from the opening of the article:
Quote
"Repeated experience teaches the investigator to be wary of relying on any single observation
for estimating the time of death (or "duration of the post mortem interval"), and he wisely avoids
making dogmatic statements based on an isolated observation". (Ref. 12 at p. 151.)
"Considering the variables which influence the rate of body heat loss, the best one can say about
the reliability of algor mortis as a post mortem clock is that it permits a rough approximation of
the time of death. Errors in over-estimating and under-estimating the post mortem interval based
on body cooling are common, even in the face of considerable experience by those making the
estimate. Body temperature as an indicator of the post mortem interval should be correlated with
all other phenomenon and observations utilised in establishing the time of death
". (Ref. 12 at p.
164.)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 11, 2011, 07:07:37 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment.  “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment}.

If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment.  However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.
Now I'm getting nervous... :shock: I will back-up the forum not only to my harddrive from now on, but I will make a copy of the back-up to a flashdrive every night and put it under my pillow when I go to sleep and I will let my killer cat guard another copy :lol:

This explains a lot about a lot of stuff I have been wondering about. I never thought staging a death could be seen as entrapment. It's providing oppurtunity, but it's not forcing anyone to commit a crime right? But I guess safety for all.

For me this explains the numerous hack attempts on this forum and the old ones as well, it also explains the importance of TMZ's role and your posts and I now understand why we need to come to a theory that would hold up in court. It might really have to hold up in court, lol. This is also why it really should hit the media.

This sting operation is very interesting, but it fries my brain at the moment. I will think about the dummy/double/corpse/air in the ambulance first.

Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: lilwendy on April 11, 2011, 07:16:22 PM
Quote from: "paula-c"
another puzzle .. to think :geek:
(http://smilies-gifs.com/pensando/4pensando.gif)

I LOVE your thinking smiley!

@MJhasSpoken - what is COH?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 11, 2011, 07:21:01 PM
Quote
bec wrote:

No body was used.

Forensic science rules it out. Altering the temp of the room would not confuse the coroner. Body core temp is only one of many factors used to determine time of death and when it is, room temperature at the scene is automatically plugged into the formula.
http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002) ... _death.htm
Rigor, pressure within the eye, appearance of the eye, blood pooling, and other little things like stomach contents and their condition are all used to determine time of death. Unless someone actually did die at Carrolwood on the morning of 6/25/09 (which the numerology proves is statistically unlikely), a corpse could not be used to fool anyone.

Here's a good pdf file about it:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin (http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin) ... edeath.pdf
a quote from the opening of the article:


"Repeated experience teaches the investigator to be wary of relying on any single observation
for estimating the time of death (or "duration of the post mortem interval"), and he wisely avoids
making dogmatic statements based on an isolated observation". (Ref. 12 at p. 151.)
"Considering the variables which influence the rate of body heat loss, the best one can say about
the reliability of algor mortis as a post mortem clock is that it permits a rough approximation of
the time of death. Errors in over-estimating and under-estimating the post mortem interval based
on body cooling are common, even in the face of considerable experience by those making the
estimate. Body temperature as an indicator of the post mortem interval should be correlated with
all other phenomenon and observations utilised in establishing the time of death". (Ref. 12 at p.
164.)

but remember that the autopsy report is false, the person who possibly died an autopsy was made ​​law and of course that is not published, so it took so long to publish results, or maybe not if this person already had a medical history with the disease he had and there was no autopsy. ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 11, 2011, 07:30:17 PM
Quote from: "paula-c"
or maybe not if this person already had a medical history with the disease he had and there was no autopsy. ;)
Good point paula.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 11, 2011, 07:40:56 PM
Now I begin to understand the intent of TS. We will need have a complete theory of all levels. This should serve to help Michael and the people who helped him to justify legally. That's us we care about all this strange death, we knew from the beginning it was all a joke, because we investigate. Now we have to show coherent theories that suggest that was a great need and not just a blow.
If so, I guess until we have everything assembled, will be very difficult for Michael to return, so we are your soldiers of love! We have the role to help you with this, and if we want to see Michael soon have to work hard in the coming months.

Oh, TS ... I think I'm a little late with this conclusion, but I think it's clearer now.  :oops:

In relation to what came to UCLA, I get the theory of a double, which was used as prevention, if something went wrong. For me that was the same person that was seen in the garden and followed the ambulance and looks much like the spitting image of TII.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 11, 2011, 08:28:37 PM
Quote from: "lilwendy"
Quote from: "paula-c"
another puzzle .. to think :geek:
(http://smilies-gifs.com/pensando/4pensando.gif)

I LOVE your thinking smiley!

@MJhasSpoken - what is COH?

It's a MMORPG called City of Heroes...everytime you get experience points it goes towards your leveling up and you get to choose new powers. :)

Also thinking about this whole FBI thing and what info the FBI would need from MJ, maybe it has to do with the Biggie case.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 11, 2011, 08:44:00 PM
POSTED>>>>>>>

Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:11 pm

Gotta go out now, but I'll be back...thanks TS.  You're my hero. :D  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 11, 2011, 08:53:59 PM
Ok, I want to start with something that confuses me about the possible participation of the EMTs. EMTs are in on the hoax theory sounds more plausible to me too. The dummy, double of MJ or healthy MJ in the ambulance would not be a problem for them as they know all about the hoax. And we have pictures of MJ (or a double) getting into the hospital sitting on the stretcher. This shows that the EMTs has to be in on the hoax. But where does this lead the EMTs explanation about the patient (old, fragile man) and the heated room? If they were in on the hoax why would they bother to make a comment like they didn't recognize the patient and he was looking like an old, fragile man? Couldn't they need to say the opposite and say that they saw Michael? Or was this because they knew about the hoax but it was just another clue for us to understand this is a hoax? What are your opinions about this?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 11, 2011, 09:15:02 PM
TS is it possible you are the FBI member helping MJ in all of this. I only suggest this because of your inclusion of the word WE when talking about the FBI investigating fake death/empty caskets scams every year.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 11, 2011, 09:35:59 PM
Quote from: "RK"
TS is it possible you are the FBI member helping MJ in all of this. I only suggest this because of your inclusion of the word WE when talking about the FBI investigating fake death/empty caskets scams every year.

That was a quotation that TS made from the FBI article about the fake funerals.

Quote
Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial! It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year. Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.”[/b] http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/se ... eral-scams (http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams).
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 11, 2011, 09:45:07 PM
Thanks Purelove. This hoax does a good job in keeping me humble cause it shows up my many shortfalls in reasoning.  ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjssoulmate on April 11, 2011, 09:52:37 PM
Seems to me that the EMTs had to be involved.  I just don't see how else it could have been pulled off.  Same goes for the FBI.  Didn't they release 333 pages of MJ's file?  Is that a hint at the numerlology connection?  
Haven't had time to reread all the links.  I'll get on that soon.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 11, 2011, 10:51:40 PM
Hi TS. Thanks for the new thread. :D
Quote
But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment. “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation;) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment).

If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment. However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment. If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out
I do understand what entrapment means vs. sting operation. What you have said about the hoax forums does hold true because everyone who has investigated the death (official people) were NOT entrapped into doing their jobs. The police, hospital workers, coroners office, etc. did what they do naturally according to their jobs. The people who have come out of the woodworks since the death like those writing books and others who seem to be on the shady side also were NOT entrapped because they just did what their natural greedy selves do in a situation like this. The official police department could very easily find out that MJ is not dead IF they did more background work, like checking the forums. Heck even the judge is aware of the social media forums, blogs, and TMZ. lol  8-)

I find it unbelievable to an extent that almost 2 years later NOT one of them has said anything to my knowledge. Maybe that is because this type of thing has happened before when a celeb dies, hoaxes are more of a non real theory to them. We are looney people to believe such a thing right? lol  ;) They (officials) are really that blind, deaf and dumb?
:?:

Quote
The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/micha ... psy-report (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/michael-jackson-autopsy-report)
Autopsy Report pages 1-4 show who the sources were for Elissa Fleak's Investigation and how it went down. So according to the report on page 2:

Information Sources:
1. Detective W Porche, LAPD-West Los Angeles Division
2. Detective S. Smith, LAPD-Robbery Homicide Division
3. UCLA Medical Center, medical record #397-5944

The Investigation section shows how E. Fleak was assigned to the case and by whom. Lieutenant F. Corral assigned the death investigation. E. Fleak arrived at UCLA Medical Center along with Assistant Chief E. Winters and Forensic Attendant A. Perez. Upon E. Fleak's completion of the body examination at the hospital, the body was transported by the Los Angeles Sheriffs Department-Air Bureau to the Coroners Forensic Science Center. The body was escorted by Forensic Attendant Perez.

Assistant Chief E. Winter and E. Fleak left the hospital and went to Michael's home. E. Fleak performed a scene investigation. After that was done they left and went back to the Coroners Forensic Science Center.

Now so far that is 3 people investigating and looking at the body. That is not including the 2 detectives or the UCLA doctor who called Time of Death. That is Dr. Richelle Cooper. Plus the other ER personnel who helped Dr. Cooper, also the Lieutenant who assigned the case to E. Fleaks. That so far is alot of people who would need to be in on the hoax for it to work, that is IF there was no body/dummy/nothing. I won't entertain the idea of MJ being the body yet.


Official General Prelim Discussion thread
viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015)
Then you have the witness list (see thread link above) of who testified at the pre-lim in regards to Dr. Cooper and the paramedics that showed up that day and transported the body to the hospital. Now after the jury questionnaire has been released, (see link below) it shows the full potential witness list. All 3 of the paramedics are confirmed. These are the ones who showed up that day. Richard Senneff FF/PM,  Martin Blount FF/PM and Jeffrey Mills Fire Captain. That is even more people who would have to be in on the hoax. This is getting to be way to many and doesn't fall into the category of the fewer in on it the better.
  viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674)

I have also already wrote about the paramedics many times and who I believe is the 1 person from LAFD who knows about the hoax (at least in the beginning). I am sure most if not all the paramedics at Fire Station #71 know NOW especially with people like Tristan visiting them and point blank asking them if they know. ;)

viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=321015#p320976 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=321015#p320976)
Something that I had noticed but didn't comment before on it. It's the wording TMZ chose for the descriptor of the unrecognizable MJ in the ambulance. IT instead of HE. Is that a Freudian slip (on purpose clue?) to tell us IT (dummy for the fake pic/dead corpse?) was in the ambulance and not a he (MJ)?
Quote
Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man."

This is a long post of mine (see below) but I think it is the best one to show my train of thought putting all the pieces together on the who was in the ambulance, who is involved from where, etc. I was responding to mjsmyheart and her(?) theory of the #71 ambulance paramedics being FBI also.
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=321015&hilit=steve+ruda#p320994 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=321015&hilit=steve+ruda#p320994)

My post regarding my thoughts on WHO went to the hospital on 6/25/2009.
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&p=309760&#p309760 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&p=309760&#p309760)

I am re-posting a previous comment of mine. This is an article that was written and displayed on the UCLA website regarding how everyone worked together and who did what on 6/25/2009. This explains why there wouldn't really need to be anyone from UCLA in on the hoax. I am not saying that no one was involved in the hoax but IF anyone from there, it would be most likely only 1 or 2 at the most, on a need to know type basis.
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314645#p314645 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314645#p314645)
Quote
The staff at UCLA just did their jobs. Jermaine is said to have confirmed the reports that were already out there. No one was allowed into the hospital if they were suspect to the UCLA staff/police who handled the security part. That is most likely why no pictures of Michael/the hospice patient have been shown inside the hospital after the ambulance arrived.

http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/sta (http://www.today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/sta) ... 95128.aspx
Jul 01, 2009 By Alison Hewitt
Staff leap into action as Jackson creates campus' biggest media surge in memory
When Michael Jackson's ambulance arrived at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center on Thursday, June 25, the star was soon followed by hordes of paparazzi, TV reporters, fans and more. The crowd only grew from there.

News crews swarmed outside the medical center to report on Jackson's death. In what many UCLA staff described as the biggest surge of media on campus in memory, even bigger than the 1984 Olympics, dozens of Bruins from departments all over campus teamed up to respond to the unprecedented crowds. Their tasks ranged from keeping aggressive paparazzi from sneaking into the emergency room, to crowd and traffic control, to arranging a press conference with the Jackson family – not to mention medical care for Jackson.

"Staff at the UCLA Medical Center really pulled together during this unprecedented event, from the doctors and nurses to the security, the media representatives and more," said Amir Dan Rubin, the Chief Operating Officer of the hospital. "As hundreds of mourners and press appeared on our doorstep, our team successfully responded to the unexpected surge of interest in one patient without letting it ever interfere with our ability to provide exceptional care for each and every one of our other patients."

When Jackson's ambulance arrived early Thursday afternoon, it was clear that the hospital needed to react quickly before the swelling crowd got out of control. A call went out to UCLA's police department moments after Jackson's ambulance arrived, said UCPD Captain John Adams.

Hundreds of fans, mourners and media massed outside UCLA's medical center when news broke that Michael Jackson was inside. "We were on scene one minute later," Adams said. Their job was all the trickier because the throngs began arriving even faster than the police did. "We secured the perimeter to make sure that the ER was still accessible to people who needed to be treated, while keeping the paparazzi out. We were cognizant that there could be people who were faking an injury or illness just to get in and snap pictures. We also worked closely with the Jackson family to help them come in safely."

All incoming patients and patients' visitors were screened. Charles Young Drive South was closed to all but ambulance traffic, and police set up barricades of yellow tape, reinforced with UC police, hospital security, officers from the Los Angeles Police Department and elsewhere. Adams estimated there were up to 1,500 gawkers, mourners and media around the hospital.

"We contacted the LAPD for their assistance because we knew this was going to be a large-scale event," Adams said. "We used their assistance to create safe passage for patients and to keep the looky-loos back."

News crews took over the lawns at the medical center to report on Jackson's death. The hospital stopped one reporter who was caught sneaking in via an underground elevator from a parking garage directly to the emergency room, and Adams encountered another. "I'm not sure whether anyone faked an injury, but we did have one individual come in for treatment who was a paparazzi," Adams added. "We made sure they didn't have access to a secure area."

The hospital's media relations representatives worked with Jackson's family to arrange an announcement to the press in a downstairs auditorium. There were some anxious moments as crowds of journalists and fans gathered in front of the medical center's main entrance waiting to be let in. More than a dozen hospital and campus media reps joined officers in guiding reporters downstairs five at a time, checking media credentials at the door and turning away fans. Reporters and bulky video cameras soon filled the space, and even though the room seats nearly 200, not all the media could fit.

"We all did our best to accommodate an unprecedented volume of reporters on campus due to the extraordinary level of interest in Michael Jackson's death," said Phil Hampton, assistant director of UCLA's Office of Media Relations.

"King of Pop is dead at 50," read a newspaper at an impromptu memorial to Michael Jackson the day after his death. Jackson's brother Jermaine confirmed the news already being reported. "The legendary King of Pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25, 2009, at 2:26 p.m. It is believed he suffered cardiac arrest in his home," he said. "A team of [UCLA] doctors, including emergency physicians and cardiologists, attempted to resuscitate him for a period of more than one hour but were unsuccessful."

The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department sent a helicopter to lift Jackson's body from the hospital to the coroner's office, and the California Highway Patrol was on hand to create a traffic break and provide an escort in case the helicopter was unavailable. On campus, the UCLA Fire Department stepped in to make sure a candlelight vigil didn't light foliage ablaze. Media relations representatives took calls and answered questions day and night.

UCLA's Parking Services juggled the hundreds of bumper-to-bumper TV trucks from around the world seeking curbside access to the hospital, helping them park close enough to transmit live shots from their roving cameras.

Some news vans ignored UCLA's parking officers and parked on the grass, where their tires tore into the lawn. "We provided public parking [at the regular rate] in structure 8, and we allowed the TV trucks to park in the north and southbound lanes of Westwood, keeping the middle open for traffic," said Steve Rand, manager of traffic, events and adjudication for Parking Services. "Although we have never had this many media in my memory – that's 30 years on campus – we do have an emergency plan that calls for this very thing."

Two tow trucks circled the area, and public cars that parked in media slots were ticketed. E-mails were sent to UCLA staff parked in structures 6, 8 and 9, recommending alternative routes out of campus. Preventing pedestrians from crossing or blocking Westwood Plaza took as much attention as traffic control, Rand said.

"Trying to keep people out of traffic lanes was a big part of our job," he said. "There really isn't a lot of room in front of the hospital for people to gather."

A sequined glove, a tribute to Jackson's jewel-encrusted trademark, lay among the bouquets, posters and votive candles at an impromptu memorial to Jackson outside the hospital. Slowly, the press and the crowds began to let up. Many TV news crews left after a final 11 p.m. live shot, and although the satellite trucks returned as early as 2 a.m. to begin shooting for morning news shows, the street was almost bare of news vehicles by late morning. Campus and hospital media representatives continued to receive calls for days, and professors from across campus were called on for their expertise to comment on aspects of Jackson's life and legacy.

But the same day that the crowds arrived on campus, they also dissipated. Facilities Management sent clean-up crews to collect the debris left behind by the hundreds of onlookers, and an impromptu memorial to Jackson was contained within a red tape barrier. The morning after Jackson's death, the hundreds had dwindled to a half-dozen, and UCLA staff from campus police, fire, transportation, the hospital, media relations, and other units began to return to more routine duties.

"We worked really well with the hospital and media relations and parking and the LAPD and everyone else," said Adams. "I'm pretty proud of how all the different units on campus were able to work together to create that controlled chaos."

"It took a true team effort on the part of the hospital and the campus community to effectively manage a fluidly unfolding and fast-paced situation," said Roxanne Yamaguchi Moster, director of UCLA's Health Sciences Media Relations. "We are grateful for all of the support we received."


Dr. Cooper is reported to have called Time of Death.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/micha (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/micha) ... psy-report

Dr. Richelle Cooper is who testified at the pre-lim. This is an article on her. http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci (http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci) ... ck_check=1

So this is already a very long post so I will stop now. If I have come up with at least 2 strong points whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, it hasn't been acknowledge by anyone nor has anyone really posted solid proof debunking any of my theories. I have a question mark hanging over my head right now on what or IF any of what I wrote is correct or wrong. :?:  8-)
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The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.

On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 11, 2011, 10:54:41 PM
So IF the ambo's are "in" on it would it not be insane for MJ to actually go to the hospital and not use the decoy as a cover to "get to the airport'?

However, is the helicopter "moving" video legit then?

Or the MJ "jumping out of the coroners's van"?

And, IF the ambo's are in, and UCLA staff in, why chance getting caught by then "exiting" stage left?

Hypothectically, IF both are in on it, why would MJ even wait til June 25th to make his "getaway"?  Stage was set to leave whenever he wanted, "in the dead of night", when noone even knew or cared.

Seems somewhat risky for parties involved to have MJ's "cover" blown.   Dummy, Double or whatever, having these parties involved and covering there would be no need to actually go to hospital.  What if "someone" saw him alive or something, I am sure the press were probably hiding in stairwells and such just to get a shot of anything "newsworthy".

Leads me to beLIEve 1 or 3 ambo's were in on it and MJ was drinking rita's wherever.

But, "michael was already at airport" quote debunks he was "long gone".  So perhaps MJ waited til June 25th to leave.  But why risk getting caught by going to hospital?  MJ was "unrecognizable" so the ER staff and the few choosen to work on him can pass it off as DEAD.

So now ambo's,staff and FBI are in on it by this scenario so....Why would the FBI even allow MJ to go to UCLA?  Too much risk, no reward.  Even if the trouble WAS made to pull of the haox with help,  the very chance, with every media present seems illogical to have MJ at UCLA.  The hoax would of died right there.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on April 12, 2011, 12:01:45 AM
Thanks, TS.

Marlon isn't in the FBI hat for nothing, that's for sure but I'm still trying to figure out why he would wear it.  It must be a message he wanted photographed and documented.     And there's that blue track suit again!  I think it was said by Larry Geller that Elvis had one of those suits too the night before he "left"...  ;)    "Blue Gangsta's"  8-)

I'll get back to you all because I want to try and show evidence that there was no body transported to the hospital.  I'm working on it.

I like what TS says here:

Quote
Fourth, if the FBI is involved, why would TS expose this publicly on the internet? Again, look at the Elvis case. Why does Linda's website publicly expose the fact that government agents helped Elvis in the past and recently? Is Linda's website putting anyone in danger? No. Why not? Because the general public has never heard of her website; and of the few who do see it, many still don't believe it. Same for this MJ hoax website. It is not getting millions of hits a day (not yet, anyway ). Few are watching, most of which are merely forum members here; and even some of those don't believe what I am saying about the FBI.

Fifth, there is more than one way to skin a cat. So let's look at it from the other side of the coin. If the FBI did not help out, then how could the Bel Air station not know something is fishy? Would they sit by quietly, and say nothing, while MJ hired actors and rented an ambulance to look just like the LAFD #71 ambulance? And why would the LAFD Captain say {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggewNtwvHJ4}: "On June 25, 2009, LAFD responded ... our paramedic ..."--if indeed the LAFD did NOT respond, and it was merely actors in a rented ambulance?

Do you think professionals could ALL be bought out for money? And when the truth came out, wouldn't there be serious consequences for all of them? Do you think they would not be charged with abuse of public office--ESPECIALLY if they got paid for it? Can they get out of it all, by saying that it was all just for a movie--and this or that legal loophole squeaks them by? Did you know that legal loopholes do not prevent people from getting charged with a crime? Did you know that loopholes may not even prevent someone from being convicted of a crime? Different people interpret the law differently; that is why there are lawyers and judges and juries.

However, if key people in the FBI are cooperating with LAFD and MJ: then when the truth comes out, all they have to do is show success in catching some public corruption through this process--and all is well that ends well. After all, once again, that is their "top priority among criminal investigations" {http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption}.
[/b]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: voiceforthesilent on April 12, 2011, 12:05:31 AM
Quote from: "mjssoulmate"
Seems to me that the EMTs had to be involved.  I just don't see how else it could have been pulled off.  Same goes for the FBI.  Didn't they release 333 pages of MJ's file?  Is that a hint at the numerlology connection?  
Haven't had time to reread all the links.  I'll get on that soon.

Thank you for bringing this up. Didn't Charles Thomson say that he requested a copy of the FBI files? I have always wondered why those reports came out after June 25, 2009 and not before. It seems pretty significant in the timing.

I also agree - I think all of the EMT personnel would have to be involved. They would be able to spot something suspicious and yet they have all remained really quiet about that day - except what we are supposed to read (they didn't recognize him,etc).

I do think there was a body in that ambulance but I don't think it was Michael. I'm still not ruling out a real body but how did they time the death? They would have had to get someone who died at the right time. I struggle to believe this. So, maybe a cadaver.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 12, 2011, 12:15:52 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?

My opinion is that a corpse of another man was in the ambulance, not MJ, because paramedics didn't recognize him.
Now I think that LAFD is involved but not to the level of paramedics who were at the site, but only on a higher lever, to keep as low as possible the number of the people who are in.And also because there was to be a trial and the paramedics were to testify under oath so they cannot lie (at least in theory), so that means they can not be in.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 12, 2011, 12:32:03 AM
I also think that the topic of this thread must be linked with what happened to UCLA, are they in or not because let's say a dummy was in the ambulance, in that case UCLA has to be in as well, and also the coroner, lots of people involved.
But if there was a real corpse it's not absolutely necesary UCLA and the coroner to be in....IDK
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 12, 2011, 12:37:02 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "paula-c"
or maybe not if this person already had a medical history with the disease he had and there was no autopsy. ;)
Good point paula.

Not really because the coroner has to be in on it already so a real body going through ucla is more trouble and risk then its worth.

Paramedics are in on it, coroner is in on it... no one at ucla besides Dr. Cooper needs to know a thing. If they see anything its a dummy being wisked by on a stretcher surrounded by bodyguards. Who's gonna know the difference?

If they used a real body they'd also have to account for it looking nothing like MJ should anyone unauthorized happen to sneak a peak; at ucla AND at the morgue. The dummy they could wrap in the sheet and send to the coroners... who's already in on it.. and then sneak away from the scene out the back door at some later hour.

A real body remains around as a stand in for the "real" body of the allegedly dead MJ. It would really have to be secured and guarded as if it was the real body. That's a huge risk for the wrong someone to stumble upon, working still under the assumption that as few as possible in on the hoax the better.

A real body leaves a physical evidence trail.

No body allows them to control all the information and makes accurate leaks about it impossible.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: onthewingsoflove on April 12, 2011, 12:43:13 AM
Hi all,

I will say that I also believe there was a real corpse in the ambulance.

Because as TS says, “The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.”  I don’t believe that all of the paramedics were in on it because of the statement that was reported, “Paramedics didn’t realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: ‘It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man.’”  #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better!

Also because of two things that concern the coroner’s office:

First there is the initial autopsy report that stated that his “emaciated body was riddled with needle marks and scars, and his head was virtually bald… Jackson's body had wasted away to a mere 112 pounds, and his stomach was completely empty except for partially dissolved pills.” The second relates to a discussion I had with a guy on my job toward the end of 2009. I was telling him about all the things that were pointing to Michael not being dead, and he was definitely a non-believer. He said he had a friend that worked in the coroner’s office and who told him that she saw Michael’s body. And because she told him that, along with the news reports, he was totally convinced that Michael was dead. I told him “I don’t deny that she saw a body, but it wasn’t Michael’s body.” To say the least that statement didn’t go over well with him.

Having an actual dead body was a necessary key in putting this hoax over. They needed a real body for the paramedic(s) and others (such as employees in the coroner’s office) that were not in on the hoax. #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better.

Stay blessed!
OnTheWingsOfLove
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 12, 2011, 01:04:14 AM
Quote from: "onthewingsoflove"
Hi all,

I will say that I also believe there was a real corpse in the ambulance.

Because as TS says, “The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.”  I don’t believe that all of the paramedics were in on it because of the statement that was reported, “Paramedics didn’t realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: ‘It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man.’”  #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better!

Also because of two things that concern the coroner’s office:

First there is the initial autopsy report that stated that his “emaciated body was riddled with needle marks and scars, and his head was virtually bald… Jackson's body had wasted away to a mere 112 pounds, and his stomach was completely empty except for partially dissolved pills.” The second relates to a discussion I had with a guy on my job toward the end of 2009. I was telling him about all the things that were pointing to Michael not being dead, and he was definitely a non-believer. He said he had a friend that worked in the coroner’s office and who told him that she saw Michael’s body. And because she told him that, along with the news reports, he was totally convinced that Michael was dead. I told him “I don’t deny that she saw a body, but it wasn’t Michael’s body.” To say the least that statement didn’t go over well with him.

Having an actual dead body was a necessary key in putting this hoax over. They needed a real body for the paramedic(s) and others (such as employees in the coroner’s office) that were not in on the hoax. #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better.

Stay blessed!
OnTheWingsOfLove

I agree, at least for the moment
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 12, 2011, 03:08:45 AM
onthewingsoflove
Just a thought about the guy you talked to's friend who said he saw Michael's body. Would not the person inside the coroner place who is in on the hoax, be the one to possibly switch bodies right there, putting the tags that say MJJ on another body. Remember the helicopter pics where clearly a body in a bag went from UCLA into the helicopter but a flat board left it and was carried into the county coroner's office. And of course we saw the movement of the body in the heli.

My theory is one that still sticks in my mind. I believe it was Michael in the ambulance. Of course the amb pic was staged the other day, but on the 25th, MJ could have had make-up on to look like an older hospice man, but not necessary (the paramedics if in on the hoax obviously have to lie anyway at the trial, as will everyone else in on it). The EMT 3 would have to be in on it, since any of the options of "bodies" that TS has given would be noticed as suspicious to unsuspecting paramedics. Once they got to the hospital, all the lockdown and tight security, protection for this huge celeb death would be in full force. MJ fully covered with a sheet can be wheeled whereever, and at one point at the entrance sits up just for hoax purposes (prankster that he is). Strange that at that point you don't see anyone else (media/fans) around the entrance doors. The doctor that examines him at UCLA would have to be in it, making the final assessment that he is "dead". MJ is again wrapped in the sheet (remember Black or White "I ain't scared of no sheets" :lol: ). He is carried into the helicopter where he moves (another prank) but remains in the helicopter (taking off the sheet) for his trip to the airport. Flat body bag carried to coroner. The coroner (only one in on it) does the body switch and creates the bogus autopsy which many knowledgable people have said was riddled with irregularilies and obvious laughable errors and inconsistencies.

The biggest reason I say this is because of studying the kind of person MJ is. Someone else asked why MJ didn't just leave in the night if there was a cadaver or body double etc. Also why did he even need to leave in a plane for somewhere? Why not just lay low somewhere in hiding? He abviously returned to LA not long after, and after all these years knows how to evade public/media attention if he wants to. But I think he did the plane thing just to make a big production of closing the airport down. There are so many things about this hoax that are pure and simple, show-business stunts and spectacular fanfare. MJ is a showman, now why in the world would he give the leading role and the most fun part to play, a dead MJ to another double? His kind of mind wants to be in the centre of the action, the most thrilling part of all, all the while doing it right under the noses of the media, fans, some of the medical, police, fire, security and some friends.

Remember MJ always said that he was hands-on with everything he did, every stage of production, loves acting, director, creating, putting in illusion and magic into everthing he does.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ForstAMoon on April 12, 2011, 03:26:27 AM
it all reminds me now this:

[youtube:3lr49dhc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwPSEsd8ifg&playnext=1&list=PLA368116BD5F9ED8C[/youtube:3lr49dhc]

the big question is: who is who now ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 12, 2011, 03:52:54 AM
I feel like we are going in circles, but  never have any facts.

In the beginning of this rollercoaster, we all stuck with "the most obvious answers".

Maybe its not as complicated as we are led to believe.

I feel that a real body was in the ambulance, a body donated for medical research,  (perhaps a homeless man, that had a terminal illness) and a similar person in age, height etc..and a person who had lung disease....therefore would explain all the medical problems found at the autopsy, and all the needle marks..the oxygen tanks etc..  Bodies are donated every day in America and the monetary rewards are plentiful.  A rumour started that is was Michael Jackson, and the rest is history....

The only people therefore involved are the ones that helped organise the terminal patient or already dead body to get to MJ's house....and as we never saw any footage of the ambulance arriving, the body could have arrived that morning, and kept warm to simulate a recent death estimate.

You just have to look at this website and their logo......

http://www.funerals.org/become-member (http://www.funerals.org/become-member)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjfansince4 on April 12, 2011, 04:43:01 AM
the only problem i have with no one or nothing being in the ambulance is when they arrived at UCLA, they needed something on that stretcher. there were paparazzi surrounding the arrival. i know the security team held up their jackets, but michael couldn't risk a photo being taken of an empty stretcher. so this leaves me to believe it was either a dummy, michael or his "double." for me, rolling in with a dummy dressed up as michael (apparently) would cause more people to be in on the hoax, so personally i don't think it was his number one choice.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 12, 2011, 06:08:46 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Maybe its not as complicated as we are led to believe.

I agree...if you look it like this;

The paramedics could be involved but then that would mean that most of the UCLA who were involved with the MJ situation, and we know MJ wanted only a small amount of people involved in the hoax.

But then if they weren't involved and there was a real body I don't understand why the doctor wouldn't sign the death cirtificate unless the doctor is the only one who knows about the hoax...which would mean a small amount of people involved.

Also I don't think MJ himself was at UCLA because of the unpredictability (I don't even know if that's a word  :?   but anyway) of the things going around...you have the large crowd outside UCLA as a factor...of course they were trying to get into UCLA to see MJ so they if they were trying to get in a different way they might of accidentally spotted MJ leaving out the back and then you have others (doctors, patients etc.) in UCLA.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 12, 2011, 06:12:28 AM
Hello TS! Thank you for another mind blowing and driving crazy question! :mrgreen:
I'm still working on my theory, trying to connect all the dots.
I just wanted to share one video with you guys, which made me go  :shock:  :o. It's called "Realistic Dummy Body Effects", http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Real ... dy-Effects (http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Realistic-Dummy-Body-Effects). People who can't stand blood, corpse and other disturbing things related to death please DO NOT WATCH!!! Actually i'm one of those people, so now i don't know how i'm going to sleep, even though i was trying to keep in mind that these are not real people but only DOLLS.  :?  
I just thought that maybe this video could help someone develop their own theory of who/what was/wasn't in ambulance and UCLA.

I am very very very sorry if this video caused any kind of negative feelings!!!  :oops:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 12, 2011, 06:24:27 AM
OK one more thought...I think it was a corpse of somebody else in the ambulance not only for the reasons  stated above(and I don't think the paramedics would lie under oath just to protect MJ, I think more like they are not in), but also because the 911 call mentioned a 50 years old gentleman, not Michael Jackson.

This way the bodyguard who made the phone call didn't have to lie as well....
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 12, 2011, 06:28:42 AM
A real corpse reduces the number of people who had to be in to FBI and high-level LAFD.....maybe UCLA and the coroner really worked on that body ...after all it was admitted under the name Soul Shaun or soemthing like this..... but they never did a DNA test?

Anyway, I am not sure but form what I've saw after more than 8-12 hours from death the face of the deceased changes in a way that makes him/her unrecognizable for people who are not familar with that person, so if the coroner was told that body was Michael Jackson's - maybe he just believed it without questioning.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 12, 2011, 06:37:07 AM
But what if there was Michael in the ambulance, playing dead, and when they arrived at the coroner he just jumped out of the van and went to the airport?
But in this case the coroner and UCLA have to be in.

But what if the van video was real (the one who they told was faked by a german television) ? In this case there was Michael all the way, in the ambulance, at UCLA and in the helicopter and in the coroner's van.....but this means everybody is in, all those people.......even if Mj is such a good actor, I just don't think he could hold his breath that long  :shock:  :lol:

Sorry Michael...... I love you, but I don't understand anything  :roll:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 12, 2011, 06:49:18 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
But what if the van video was real (the one who they told was faked by a german television) ? In this case there was Michael all the way, in the ambulance, at UCLA and in the helicopter and in the coroner's van.....but this means everybody is in, all those people.......even if Mj is such a good actor, I just don't think he could hold his breath that long  :shock:  :lol:

Sorry Michael...... I love you, but I don't understand anything  :roll:

The video is FAKE! Here are all evidences needed to prove that this video is fake. http://artoftheprank.com/2009/09/02/mic ... sh-german/ (http://artoftheprank.com/2009/09/02/michael-jackson-not-dead-english-german/)

L.O.V.E
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 12, 2011, 06:55:19 AM
I saw the made of that video before but what if the made of is a fake ?!

ahhhhh...I'm not sure it's fake. And even if it's fake - it's still suspicious why they made it soon after his death.  I don't think it is moral or appropriate somebody's death to be used for testing people when it comes to a man's suffering and death. This is just plain sick to me.

Why they didn't make such a video when other famous people died?

Why only with Michael Jackson?

What if that video was supposed to be a clue after all?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 12, 2011, 07:01:08 AM
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
Hello TS! Thank you for another mind blowing and driving crazy question! :mrgreen:
I'm still working on my theory, trying to connect all the dots.
I just wanted to share one video with you guys, which made me go  :shock:  :o. It's called "Realistic Dummy Body Effects", http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Real ... dy-Effects (http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Realistic-Dummy-Body-Effects). People who can't stand blood, corpse and other disturbing things related to death please DO NOT WATCH!!! Actually i'm one of those people, so now i don't know how i'm going to sleep, even though i was trying to keep in mind that these are not real people but only DOLLS.  :?  
I just thought that maybe this video could help someone develop their own theory of who/what was/wasn't in ambulance and UCLA.

I am very very very sorry if this video caused any kind of negative feelings!!!  :oops:

Holy crap that's cool! It looks so real! But would EMT's be fooled with it? Would they not know it was not a real body? If it's possible to fool professional people with a dummy like this, it would be a possibility but I can't imagine that trained EMT's who handle real people numerous times a day would not notice. And if they really wanted to fool the EMT's with such an expensive dummy, why not make it look like MJ?

Is there more information about these kinds of dummies somewhere?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 12, 2011, 07:06:29 AM
umm is there any possibility that the ambulance showed up with a body already in it? :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 12, 2011, 07:18:52 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
Hello TS! Thank you for another mind blowing and driving crazy question! :mrgreen:
I'm still working on my theory, trying to connect all the dots.
I just wanted to share one video with you guys, which made me go  :shock:  :o. It's called "Realistic Dummy Body Effects", http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Real ... dy-Effects (http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Realistic-Dummy-Body-Effects). People who can't stand blood, corpse and other disturbing things related to death please DO NOT WATCH!!! Actually i'm one of those people, so now i don't know how i'm going to sleep, even though i was trying to keep in mind that these are not real people but only DOLLS.  :?  
I just thought that maybe this video could help someone develop their own theory of who/what was/wasn't in ambulance and UCLA.

I am very very very sorry if this video caused any kind of negative feelings!!!  :oops:

Holy crap that's cool! It looks so real! But would EMT's be fooled with it? Would they not know it was not a real body? If it's possible to fool professional people with a dummy like this, it would be a possibility but I can't imagine that trained EMT's who handle real people numerous times a day would not notice. And if they really wanted to fool the EMT's with such an expensive dummy, why not make it look like MJ?

Is there more information about these kinds of dummies somewhere?

I don't know. This was the only video which shows that kind of very realistic dummy. I was looking for images or websites, but found nothing interesting.  :roll:
I agree with you that trying to fool EMT is a VERY tricky business, i also think that it's not possible. It's easy to fool people with no medical background, but any kind of medical worker spends years of examining  the corpses in medical school (side note: that's why i NEVER EVER wanted to be a doctor) and of course years of practice with dead bodies when they actually start to work.
Also as you said why they didn't make it a perfect copy of MJ?

But i just also thought how cool is that? It looks 99% identical to human bodies.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: jm1lvmj on April 12, 2011, 08:07:16 AM
I'm not an investigator  :oops:   So, I thank you, TS, and all the rest of you for your skills and direction.  I'm still here.  LOVE♥


IGNORANTIA JURIS NON EXCUSAT
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 12, 2011, 08:15:18 AM
I read somewhere that Marlon has a good friend who works for the FBI He is the one who gave him the cap. I am trying to find information but I am press for time. Once I find it I will post it.
@TS are you a lawyer? Wow I am amazed with what you come out everytime. Blessings.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 12, 2011, 08:48:43 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
I feel like we are going in circles, but  never have any facts.

In the beginning of this rollercoaster, we all stuck with "the most obvious answers".

Maybe its not as complicated as we are led to believe.

I feel that a real body was in the ambulance, a body donated for medical research,  (perhaps a homeless man, that had a terminal illness) and a similar person in age, height etc..and a person who had lung disease....therefore would explain all the medical problems found at the autopsy, and all the needle marks..the oxygen tanks etc..  Bodies are donated every day in America and the monetary rewards are plentiful.  A rumour started that is was Michael Jackson, and the rest is history....

The only people therefore involved are the ones that helped organise the terminal patient or already dead body to get to MJ's house....and as we never saw any footage of the ambulance arriving, the body could have arrived that morning, and kept warm to simulate a recent death estimate.

You just have to look at this website and their logo......

http://www.funerals.org/become-member (http://www.funerals.org/become-member)

Buuutttt...how'd that dead body MOVE???
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 12, 2011, 08:58:13 AM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
I feel like we are going in circles, but  never have any facts.

In the beginning of this rollercoaster, we all stuck with "the most obvious answers".

Maybe its not as complicated as we are led to believe.

I feel that a real body was in the ambulance, a body donated for medical research,  (perhaps a homeless man, that had a terminal illness) and a similar person in age, height etc..and a person who had lung disease....therefore would explain all the medical problems found at the autopsy, and all the needle marks..the oxygen tanks etc..  Bodies are donated every day in America and the monetary rewards are plentiful.  A rumour started that is was Michael Jackson, and the rest is history....

The only people therefore involved are the ones that helped organise the terminal patient or already dead body to get to MJ's house....and as we never saw any footage of the ambulance arriving, the body could have arrived that morning, and kept warm to simulate a recent death estimate.

You just have to look at this website and their logo......

http://www.funerals.org/become-member (http://www.funerals.org/become-member)

Buuutttt...how'd that dead body MOVE???

Do you mean in the helicopter???  I still believe that was an illusion created by the the person on board, preparing for the landing, and turned the stretcher around...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 12, 2011, 08:59:03 AM
:?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 12, 2011, 09:01:17 AM
I still think the theory most likely is a double of Michael went to the hospital in his place, and for me is the double of TII. I agree, if so, all the paramedics and some people of UCLA would have to know the hoax.
But do not discount other hypotheses.
Before, I thought anyone would be very ill  in Carolwood, maybe some longtime friend ( your double) that Michael  decided to help. This explains the use of drugs like morphine, propofol and oxygen bubbles found in the room. I remember Kai Chase said no one could climb to the third floor of the house, then the reason is that no one could see what was there. The hiring of Murray would be to monitor this patient and administer the drugs in time to avoid suffering of the patient. But this story would be very grim if Michael proposed to take care of a patient when he suited up and on the exact day that he (Michael) decided to die it just asks to turn off the oxygen, or give a very high dosage of drugs to commit a euthanasia. Ok, terminal patients with cancer are sometimes sent home to die with the family, but nobody can predict the exact day of the death and for what we already know the date of June 25 was well planned, according to numerology. Would not that be a kind of crime? Michael would not engage in it.
Yet the theory of dolls, I agree with Souza, you can not fool a health professional with synthetic dolls. I've seen one of these in college and is all very different, starting with the appearance of the skin. If that doll was used, was not with the intention to deceive paramedics and doctors at UCLA.
I do not think Michael himself went to the hospital ... would be so risky! But it may be possible, after all, Michael is audacious enough. He even said in TII, "the fearless MJ.
Oh Michael, what did you do anyway?
TS, we will need of you, so much! :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 12, 2011, 09:16:47 AM
I want to ask these questions before I forget 'em :)

If a dummy or dead body went to UCLA...who sit up in the copter?
(but that don't mean a different "person" wasn't on the way to the morgue)

Of course, if Michael got "caught" getting out of that van, wouldn't it stand to reason that they made it look like it was a set up????

Maybe Michael was disguised once again as an old man, so the medics wouldn't be lying or so they could say they didn't know it was Michael?

But, honestly, to say anything besides the medics knew is crazy, because, say these medics are REAL...they would be taking stats!!  They'd KNOW it was a dummy.  Now it could be a cadaver..

Really, I'm with what MJonmind  wrote.  Mj is a performer.  Bottom line.

Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 12, 2011, 09:23:56 AM
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
I still think the theory most likely is a double of Michael went to the hospital in his place, and for me is the double of TII. I agree, if so, all the paramedics and some people of UCLA would have to know the hoax.
But do not discount other hypotheses.
Before, I thought anyone would be very ill  in Carolwood, maybe some longtime friend ( your double) that Michael  decided to help. This explains the use of drugs like morphine, propofol and oxygen bubbles found in the room. I remember Kai Chase said no one could climb to the third floor of the house, then the reason is that no one could see what was there. The hiring of Murray would be to monitor this patient and administer the drugs in time to avoid suffering of the patient. But this story would be very grim if Michael proposed to take care of a patient when he suited up and on the exact day that he (Michael) decided to die it just asks to turn off the oxygen, or give a very high dosage of drugs to commit a euthanasia. Ok, terminal patients with cancer are sometimes sent home to die with the family, but nobody can predict the exact day of the death and for what we already know the date of June 25 was well planned, according to numerology. Would not that be a kind of crime? Michael would not engage in it.

This is what I had thought originally also, knowing how Michael liked to help people.   And it would give a body and an autopsy.  BUT, then you'd have to rule out the numerology aspect.  Which I have done, but again, how can all that be a considental?

Yet the theory of dolls, I agree with Souza, you can not fool a health professional with synthetic dolls. I've seen one of these in college and is all very different, starting with the appearance of the skin. If that doll was used, was not with the intention to deceive paramedics and doctors at UCLA.

This is also true.  Also, I think this theory demands that the medics where in on it.  They couldn't do stats or life support on a dummy and not know.


I do not think Michael himself went to the hospital ... would be so risky! But it may be possible, after all, Michael is audacious enough. He even said in TII, "the fearless MJ.

I can just see the film of Michael being there laughing...
remember the rumor of a second ambulance going out of the other end of the drive?  Could've been in there?
Oh Michael, what did you do anyway?
How do we get a definitive answer to questions that are just a speculative collaboration?
TS, we will need of you, so much! :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Terror2k10 on April 12, 2011, 09:33:57 AM
Lou Ferrigno, Michael Jackson’s Personal Trainer for the O2 Concerts in London, has spoken fondly in an interview on

Michael Jackson's trainer Lou Ferrigno

 the Television show Good Day LA, about how MJ loved to play pranks quite often and how he would also disguise himself. He laughs and jokes along as he also tells how Michael used to place a Mannequin of himself in an ambulance to deter the Paparazzi. How very interesting…  :shock:  A hot room to warm the Mannequin to the right temperature.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: pepper on April 12, 2011, 09:39:44 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Maybe its not as complicated as we are led to believe.

I feel that a real body was in the ambulance, a body donated for medical research,  (perhaps a homeless man, that had a terminal illness) and a similar person in age, height etc..and a person who had lung disease....therefore would explain all the medical problems found at the autopsy, and all the needle marks..the oxygen tanks etc..  Bodies are donated every day in America and the monetary rewards are plentiful.  A rumour started that is was Michael Jackson, and the rest is history....

The only people therefore involved are the ones that helped organise the terminal patient or already dead body to get to MJ's house....and as we never saw any footage of the ambulance arriving, the body could have arrived that morning, and kept warm to simulate a recent death estimate.


Quote from: "suspicious mind"
umm is there any possibility that the ambulance showed up with a body already in it? :?

Excellent question, suspiciousmind!  This would make so much sense, to have the body already in the ambulance.  It would tie up so many loose ends and ethical questions concerning a donor body.  Of course the paramedics would have had to be in on it.  

I think the use of a donor body is a real possibility. See this link from February, 2011. Thanks to "skyways" for presenting the UCLA donor body link and idea!

posting.php?mode=quote&f=39&p=302049 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/posting.php?mode=quote&f=39&p=302049)

Quote from: "pepper"
According to this-
http://donatedbodyprogram.ucla.edu/work ... cation.pdf (http://donatedbodyprogram.ucla.edu/workfiles/2008_Full_Donor_Registration_Application.pdf)

On Page 4 - "The Program accepts donations of human bodies for use by various individuals and institutions in connection with education and research... with the general intent of improving the human condition"

"A donated body will be used by the Program and others in a manner to be determined exclusively by the Program..."

"Donations are confidential.  Once a donor's remains have been accepted into the program... the Program will not provide any further information concerning the use and/or disposition of the body."

So it seems that an individual could possibly use a donor body, in a manner determined exclusively by "the Program" at UCLA, and there would not be any information provided concerning the use and/or disposition of that body.

Page 7 - "If a donated body... (is) used by persons... not associated with the University of California campus at which the body is housed, the Program shall be entitled to recover all...related costs...from the end user."

So a person not associated with UCLA could, technically, use a donated body as long as they pay to UCLA all related costs of using the body.

Page 10 and 11 - The form for a third party (not the actual person whose body is being donated) to donate someone else's body.

Page 15 and 16 - Describes the right to control the disposition of the remains of a deceased person -
"A funeral director or cemetery authority shall not be liable to any person or persons for carrying out the instructions of the decedent or the person entitled to control the disposition."

This would absolve Forest Lawn of any legal ramifications...

This link-
http://www.ctdn.org/downloads/Californi ... de7150.pdf (http://www.ctdn.org/downloads/CaliforniaHealthandSafetyCode7150.pdf)

7154 "If a donee (someone who receives the gift of a donated body) accepts an anatomical gift of an entire body, the donee... may allow use of the body in funeral services."

Would absolve whoever orchestrated this of any liability of using someone else's body in a funeral service.

And this link-
http://law.onecle.com/california/health/7113.html (http://law.onecle.com/california/health/7113.html)

California Health and Safety Code Section 7113
"A cemetery authority or licensed funeral director or a licensed hospital or its authorized personnel may permit or assist, and a physician may perform,an autopsy of any remains in its or his custody if the decedent, prior to his death, authorizes an autopsy in his will or other written instrument, or upon the receipt of a written authorization, telegram, or a verbal authorization obtained by telephone and recorded on tape or other recording device, from a person REPRESENTING HIMSELF to be any of the following:
(a) The surviving spouse; (b) a surviving child or parent; (c) a surviving brother or sister; d)any other kin or person who has acquired the right to control the disposition of the remains; (e) a
public administrator; (f) a coroner or any other duly authorized public officer. A cemetery authority or a licensed funeral director or a licensed hospital or its authorized personnel is NOT LIABLE for permitting or assisting, and a physician is not liable for performing, an autopsy pursuant to such authorization UNLESS he or it has actual notice that such representation is untrue at the time the autopsy is performed."


Well that absolves a TON of people from liability for the autopsy!
This also makes me think of the phone call CNN got from "the coroner" and the call the L.A.Times got from the "duly authorized public officer" that MJ was indeed "dead". Could it perhaps have been someone representing himself to be "the coroner" or a "duly authorized public officer"?  [/b]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 12, 2011, 10:08:51 AM
The use of a donor body would be complicated. Here comes the issue: the paramedics and doctors soon discover that he was not  Michael and if they are not in the jest, would say this at any time for the press.
Now, if they knew the joke because so much work to get a dead body? This is so sad and would not fool anyone. The whole world knows the face of Michael. I can only believe, if this donor body is a double of Michael.
Another possibility is Michael has personally gone to UCLA. There is a medicameneto that the person appears to be dead because their heart rates become almost imperceptible and breathing decreased significantly. But I do not know if Michael would risk taking a drug like this. So he could fool the paramedics, as one of the versions is that he had a weak pulse, but various people  UCLA would be within the Hoax!
But I keep the theory of the double alive was  in ambulance. So, What happened at UCLA? I hope that it is next level discussed by TS.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: alovesmichael on April 12, 2011, 10:17:26 AM
who are you? :?:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 12, 2011, 10:43:59 AM
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
who are you? :?:

With the pattern of thought and reasonings and teaching into logical theories, I'd say this is an attorney we are dealing with.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 12, 2011, 11:00:49 AM
If someone really died on June 25 or before, why not follow any protocol? I mean the police that day was not at home?, that lead to a person who supposedly had already died at a hospital and not the coroner?, the house never was treated as a crime scene. There is no person who works at UCLA who has said what happened that day in the hospital.
 And if that ambulance was to transfer to Michael at the airport while the whole show was focused on the hospital and then to transfer to the coroner
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 12, 2011, 11:24:24 AM
Remember:
If the paramedics are real/unaware then the 911 call is real too.

If the paramedics are fake/in on it then the 911 call is most likely fake.

If Michael needs us to prove this hoax then he should have made it more linear. As it is it's very open ended. The way he did it makes the possibilities of "how" endless. Cest la vie.

I still say no body. There's a thousand reasons why. Here's another one: When all is said and done, a real dead person would have to be answered for. Not only is that body masquerading around as the KOP on 6/25 and for the 70 days afterward, just begging someone to come along and KNOW that it isn't Michael Jackson... (and how did they get it to match his drivers license pic), but when all is said and done, at some future date, when the hoax is revealed...

...it will have to be explained. And who this dead person was will have to be revealed, and how this dead person happened to be available to MJ and his team will also have to be explained, and the likelihood of that being no-big-deal is very slim. Because it's a HUGE deal. HUGE. Dead bodies aren't entertaining. Nor are they pranks. A dead person was a person with a life and a family and loved ones who need to mourn him and wish he was still on this earth. What a HUGE distraction from the message... from the point of this whole hoax. Instead of discussing the hows and whys of healing the world and making that change and removing the stain of chi-mo allegations... everyone will be talking about the poor dead guy that MJ used in the process of his giant global fraud, I mean hoax. See? Wrong tone.

Not to mention why bother, again, why take this massive risk of physical evidence just laying around waiting for the wrong person to stumble upon it? No one at UCLA needs to know squat for this hoax to work, except for Richelle Cooper... and he/she can easily be in on it, as the coroner is.

Oh and really. If this was a real body, and they really thought while working on it, that it could be revived, what if it was? What if that freshly dead body donated to the cause... woke up?

Because a long dead body is not going to fool medical professionals on the table in the ER. Sorry, it's just not, that's a fact. Warm or not, dead is dead.

Warm room was a ruse to throw us off the trail. It was a rabbit hole, but the rabbit hole had a fork in it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 12, 2011, 11:41:11 AM
You're also not going to be able to insert an endotracheal tube into a dead body. Rigor starts early in the jaw (and eye lids).

Any alleged real body would have to be freshly dead (very freshly dead as in under a hour) and the numerology rules that out.

So anyone want to take a gander at proving the statistical probability that a man died within an hour of the paramedics arriving so they could still insert the breathing tube?

First you'd have to determine the likelihood of random death at that time, then the likelihood that the person was male, that the person was a thin male, that the person was a thin male approx 50 years old, that the thin male approx 50 years old was of a light enough skin color, had no distinguishing features to make it clearly NOT mj... etc etc it goes on and on.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: lilwendy on April 12, 2011, 12:08:04 PM
I may be really out there but is there a way to embalm a body so it didn't decompose for 3 years?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Blackie

Friends and a benefactor rescued the body... cremated the body....  if it is possible to hang onto a body that long, without it showing visible signs of being that old... whose to say they didn't just get some ashes and say they cremated the guy.

Also note the tatooed on eyes and eyebrows... wasn't that mentioned in the autopsy report?

Please debunk because I haven't REALLY thought it through.  :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: hesouttamylife on April 12, 2011, 12:08:37 PM
Quote from: "Terror2k10"
Lou Ferrigno, Michael Jackson’s Personal Trainer for the O2 Concerts in London, has spoken fondly in an interview on

Michael Jackson's trainer Lou Ferrigno

 the Television show Good Day LA, about how MJ loved to play pranks quite often and how he would also disguise himself. He laughs and jokes along as he also tells how Michael used to place a Mannequin of himself in an ambulance to deter the Paparazzi. How very interesting…  :shock:  A hot room to warm the Mannequin to the right temperature.

 :shock: Does Michael have his own ambulance?  What ambulance did he use for this prank?  The same one in the photo?  Did I miss the link to this article because it’s kinda interesting?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Datroot on April 12, 2011, 12:23:56 PM
Quote from: "hesouttamylife"
Quote from: "Terror2k10"
Lou Ferrigno, Michael Jackson’s Personal Trainer for the O2 Concerts in London, has spoken fondly in an interview on

Michael Jackson's trainer Lou Ferrigno

 the Television show Good Day LA, about how MJ loved to play pranks quite often and how he would also disguise himself. He laughs and jokes along as he also tells how Michael used to place a Mannequin of himself in an ambulance to deter the Paparazzi. How very interesting…  :shock:  A hot room to warm the Mannequin to the right temperature.

 :shock: Does Michael have his own ambulance?  What ambulance did he use for this prank?  The same one in the photo?  Did I miss the link to this article because it’s kinda interesting?

The ambulance photo was probably an old one of the mannequin MJ placed there, and they just passed it off as the 25/06/09 photo.  MJ looked about 20 years younger so it must have been a mannequin.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 12, 2011, 12:29:08 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Dead bodies aren't entertaining. Nor are they pranks. A dead person was a person with a life and a family and loved ones who need to mourn him and wish he was still on this earth. What a HUGE distraction from the message... from the point of this whole hoax. Instead of discussing the hows and whys of healing the world and making that change and removing the stain of chi-mo allegations... everyone will be talking about the poor dead guy that MJ used in the process of his giant global fraud, I mean hoax. See? Wrong tone.


Totally agree with you here Bec, I just composed a long post saying much the same, but got way off topic and deleted it all!

Bottom line for me is that if this hoax is meant in any way to be entertainment then the dead body theory is a non-starter. It's gruesome, macabre and in no way family friendly. Period.

The only way I can begin to reconcile the use of a corpse with the hoax, is if exposing public corruption is the main reason for it and that demands a 'body', supposedly MJ's, in order for a possible sting operation to be successful.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Datroot on April 12, 2011, 12:38:49 PM
I doubt it's meant to be entertainment.  It must have been something drastic that there was no other way but to fake his death.  The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: lilwendy on April 12, 2011, 12:41:38 PM
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"
Dead bodies aren't entertaining. Nor are they pranks. A dead person was a person with a life and a family and loved ones who need to mourn him and wish he was still on this earth. What a HUGE distraction from the message... from the point of this whole hoax. Instead of discussing the hows and whys of healing the world and making that change and removing the stain of chi-mo allegations... everyone will be talking about the poor dead guy that MJ used in the process of his giant global fraud, I mean hoax. See? Wrong tone.


Totally agree with you here Bec, I just composed a long post saying much the same, but got way off topic and deleted it all!

Bottom line for me is that if this hoax is meant in any way to be entertainment then the dead body theory is a non-starter. It's gruesome, macabre and in no way family friendly. Period.

The only way I can begin to reconcile the use of a corpse with the hoax, is if exposing public corruption is the main reason for it and that demands a 'body', supposedly MJ's, in order for a possible sting operation to be successful.

While I agree with you Bec and Curls, this exercise has served to remind me, by putting in my face, how corrupt this world is (because I think sometimes we need reminding of what we are fighting against).

Some of the things I have found included:

UCLA getting sued for selling willed bodies
People selling body parts for profit
Kidnapping of homeless children for sale of parts
and a site that specializes in making you over and dressing you up to look pretty when you commit suicide.

I won't go any further because we don't need to FOCUS on the bad.  This world is messed up and it rips my heart and I know your heart out.  As morbid as it is... it is what is happening.

As for focusing on how this was pulled off and focusing on dead bodies... well, I don't think it's an all or nothing.  I sure hope people on here on so focussed on this hoax and investigation that it is ruling their life and nothing else exists (as that would not be healthy).

I for one am balancing work, family, church leadership, along with balancing investigation, AND impacting the world positively through charitable events, volunteering of time and money, and spreading the message of love through speaking engagements and one on one relationships.

It doesn't have to be an either/or.

So I hear what you are both saying and thank you for bringing it up.... this CAN be a distraction from the message... IF YOU ALLOW IT TO BE.  Allow people like curls and bec to remind us that we need to be ACTIVELY making a difference while investigating.

Love you Curls and Bec.... love you investigative team....
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 12, 2011, 12:55:24 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "onthewingsoflove"
Hi all,

I will say that I also believe there was a real corpse in the ambulance.

Because as TS says, “The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.”  I don’t believe that all of the paramedics were in on it because of the statement that was reported, “Paramedics didn’t realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: ‘It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man.’”  #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better!

Also because of two things that concern the coroner’s office:

First there is the initial autopsy report that stated that his “emaciated body was riddled with needle marks and scars, and his head was virtually bald… Jackson's body had wasted away to a mere 112 pounds, and his stomach was completely empty except for partially dissolved pills.” The second relates to a discussion I had with a guy on my job toward the end of 2009. I was telling him about all the things that were pointing to Michael not being dead, and he was definitely a non-believer. He said he had a friend that worked in the coroner’s office and who told him that she saw Michael’s body. And because she told him that, along with the news reports, he was totally convinced that Michael was dead. I told him “I don’t deny that she saw a body, but it wasn’t Michael’s body.” To say the least that statement didn’t go over well with him.

Having an actual dead body was a necessary key in putting this hoax over. They needed a real body for the paramedic(s) and others (such as employees in the coroner’s office) that were not in on the hoax. #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better.

Stay blessed!
OnTheWingsOfLove

I agree, at least for the moment

I also agree...
Here's one of my previous posts on the last level pg 18:


Re: TIAI March 9

Quote
Postby MsTrinity333 » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:16 pm

    wishingstar wrote:Wow MsTrinity333...I just watched that video you posted.....
    I don't know what to say. My first reaction was that of something that shook my thoughts on June25th itself. It was a double that really did pass away. The numerology points to a premeditated plan. However, this is Michael Jackson. The phrase meet the man you never knew is resonating within me....I'd like to meet him, I want to meet him, but will never have that chance. If we never knew him, would we recognize him standing in front of us?

    Alas, poor Michael, we didn't know you at all.....let's change that, shall we??


    Blessings Always


Quote
Here's all I could find from my past notes of an investigation between two posters concerning a body (not a double):

"This brings us to who was in the house. Who did they put in the ambulance and take to UCLA. If they were working with a medical forensic doctor DR. A. the colleague of Dr. Murray; then he could get a John Doe who is either critical or recently died and take to the house to the doctor's room. He was not in MJ's bed, and they made the room as hot as possible to try to keep the body warm. There are too many unexplained things that make it less likely that MJ had disappeared and was not taken to the hospital.

The fact that no one has identified or spoken to the doctor who received MJ's body and coded him at UCLA hospital or that he/she did not announce the death at the press conference is unheard of. It is not difficult for a physician to purchase an unidentified person - John Doe/Jane Doe. They are used for training physicians on procedures etc. I think in this case - a medical legal forensic doctor- Dr. M's colleague may have access to these John Doe bodies. They had the right fit. That is why no one from the house- Kai Chase or any of the housekeepers were called for help; which is unusual in a cardiac arrest where you need as many hands as possible to help with compression and passing things.

My assumption is that MJ did his disappearance between a little after midnight the night before (6/24) to the morning of 6/25. Most likely before Kai Chase got to the house. I think that explains why his computer/hard drive and stashes of money were missing. He took the computer with his songs and the money with him. The person who they reported was MJ was not him. So far we had at least 2 episodes where the people who saw his body when he was a dead man said it did not look like him and described someone who looked elderly, Asian and very, very thin. The most important characteristic of MJ is his Vitiligo and that was not described by any of them.

MJ would not take the risk of going to the hospital. There would be too much complication with going there. However for diversion you send a body there because that will take the attention away from what you are doing; similar to the scene in Smooth Criminal where he describes the fact that you create the diversion with the person coming on stage with the fire and noise while he and the dancers position themselves into the tilt. No one is watching them…"
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=425

[/color]
If there was NO Body or a wax dummy was used why the warm room? Wax melts.  No one allowed upstairs?, nobody RECOGNIZED MJ?! :roll:  elderly man?  :lol: Asian?  :lol:  :lol:  , wrong bedroom, Jermaine's slip about MJ at the airport,  8-) missing security tapes & hard drive... There has to be a body & some FBI involvement.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 12, 2011, 01:18:53 PM
Quote from: "lilwendy"
I may be really out there but is there a way to embalm a body so it didn't decompose for 3 years?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Blackie

Friends and a benefactor rescued the body... cremated the body....  if it is possible to hang onto a body that long, without it showing visible signs of being that old... whose to say they didn't just get some ashes and say they cremated the guy.

Also note the tatooed on eyes and eyebrows... wasn't that mentioned in the autopsy report?
Or lip liner...or chin implant...right?

Please debunk because I haven't REALLY thought it through.  :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 12, 2011, 01:54:56 PM
Quote
MsTrinity333 wrote:

My assumption is that MJ did his disappearance between a little after midnight the night before (6/24) to the morning of 6/25. Most likely before Kai Chase got to the house. I think that explains why his computer/hard drive and stashes of money were missing. He took the computer with his songs and the money with him. The person who they reported was MJ was not him. So far we had at least 2 episodes where the people who saw his body when he was a dead man said it did not look like him and described someone who looked elderly, Asian and very, very thin. The most important characteristic of MJ is his Vitiligo and that was not described by any of them.


Yes this makes sense
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 12, 2011, 01:58:15 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
who are you? :?:

With the pattern of thought and reasonings and teaching into logical theories, I'd say this is an attorney we are dealing with.

I am not a lawyer. I'm biomedical formed five years last and I work at a federal university hospital. So I know a few things.
Sorry, I don't no know if you're talking to me, but I answered anyway! :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 12, 2011, 02:00:37 PM
If the death certificate can be forged, so can the autopsy report, especially if the FBI is involved and these were necessary for the sting.  I don’t believe an autopsy was performed on anybody.

I prefer to believe that there was no body used on June 25th – bec’s right, it’s just morally and ethically…not on.  For me, the only way a real body could’ve been used is if someone was in a coma and just taken off life support or simply remained in a coma, there were reports that “Michael” was in a coma at the hospital before anyone knew he “died”.  But still, to use a real body – dead or alive – complicates everything unnecessarily.  And it makes me uncomfortable with the whole thing.

So I think either a dummy or nothing was taken to the hospital.  I think (?) we’ve established that the paramedics need to be in on it since the ambulance photo shows a young and alive looking Michael, whereas they said at the prelim that “it” looked like a frail sickly old man.   What if there were two dummies?  One for the ambulance photo on the other day and an old-man dummy so that what the paramedics say is not lying.  “It” very well could’ve looked like a frail old man and of course "it" wouldn't show any signs of life.  But that still doesn’t mean to me that anything was taken to the hospital.  Anybody “Michael” came into contact with at the hospital is in on it – the doctor and later the coroner.  Remember, the hospital was cleared out because of a fire alarm.  Any access to “Michael” was severely limited, just look at all the security around the stretcher on the photos going into the hospital.  Also, a dummy would've been easy to move or manipulate in the helicopter...which was flying with the door wide open like an action movie for some reason.   ;)  And a dummy (or nothing) explains why a white sheet was used to cover the surfboard-body instead of the proper blue L.A. county body bag.  And it's just another clue to the hoax, another defense against entrapment (for the FBI sting).

Whether the paramedics were undercover feds or real paramedics or actors, I’m not sure.  But the paramedics, doctor and coroner wouldn’t be at liberty to say anything involving Michael if there is an FBI sting involved, at the risk of endangering people and the whole operation.

So why the hot room?  Maybe someone was doing hot yoga.  :lol: :lol:   Don’t forget the TMZ article about the famous yogi who is entombed at the same mausoleum as MJ’s.

Quote
MJ Mausoleum -- Who's Ready for Yoga?!
8/3/2010 6:35 AM PDT by TMZ Staff  
MJ's mausoleum is about to be penetrated by a busload of hardcore Yoga enthusiasts ... and TMZ has learned Forest Lawn is welcoming them with open arms.
According to sources at the cemetery, the followers of Paramahansa Yogananda (pictured top right) -- a famous Indian guru and yogi who died almost 60 years ago -- plan to visit their master's crypt today for a prayer ritual ... and his crypt happens to be inside the same mausoleum where MJ resides.

The problem -- the Great Mausoleum has been on lockdown mode for months -- thanks to some overzealous MJ fans -- with the cemetery threatening to remove Jacko-holics by force if they're caught anywhere near the building.

But we're told since Yogananda's followers have been doing their prayer thing in the mausoleum for years -- and have never caused a problem -- they're cool to enter the area.

However, according to our sources, MJ's tomb will be covered with a screen during the spiritual visit -- and get this ... it's all because security is afraid a few crazed MJ fans could pose as yoga enthusiasts ... just to sneak into the mausoleum.

Namaste.
http://www.tmz.com/2010/08/02/forest-la ... yogananda/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/08/02/forest-lawn-michael-jackson-tomb-mausoleum-cemetery-yoga-enthusiasts-paramahanda-yogananda/)

Yogananda founded Kriya yoga and Bikram or hot yoga is an off shoot of that.  And notice that line of the TMZ article “they’re cool to enter the area.”  Hot - cool.  :?  :shock:
I know I’m reaching here… :lol:  But you never know.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 12, 2011, 02:12:09 PM
Quote from: "Datroot"
I doubt it's meant to be entertainment.  It must have been something drastic that there was no other way but to fake his death.

No, I don't agree with you here. If 'it' was that drastic and there was 'no other way', I think it would've been a totally unsuspicious natural death, and none of us would be here now believing he is still alive. MJ is an entertainer, a showman, first and foremost and I've not come across any evidence so far that has proved to me that this hoax is not the greatest production and performance of his life. I'm not saying it's all fun and laughter, of course it plainly isn't. There's a serious side too, as there always has been in all of his work, but I do think that it IS meant to be entertainment ... and it will be with hindsight!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 12, 2011, 02:15:12 PM
Just adding a bit more to my post - the death certificate and autopsy reports were necessary to make the death believable.  And the FBI's involvement in the autopsy report seems more likely since it was finalized on 9/9/9.  It's all about the number clues.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: jacilovesmichael on April 12, 2011, 02:58:35 PM
I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on April 12, 2011, 03:00:46 PM
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
But what if the van video was real (the one who they told was faked by a german television) ? In this case there was Michael all the way, in the ambulance, at UCLA and in the helicopter and in the coroner's van.....but this means everybody is in, all those people.......even if Mj is such a good actor, I just don't think he could hold his breath that long  :shock:  :lol:

Sorry Michael...... I love you, but I don't understand anything  :roll:

The video is FAKE! Here are all evidences needed to prove that this video is fake. http://artoftheprank.com/2009/09/02/mic ... sh-german/ (http://artoftheprank.com/2009/09/02/michael-jackson-not-dead-english-german/)

L.O.V.E

Yes the video you posted is FAKE the one made by the german TV crew, but the other van video I believe is genuine, always have believed that it was genuine, the second FAKE one was made to cover it up! Just my opinion, but I believe the other van video is genuine, cause it made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up the first time I saw it,  :lol:  but yep for me its genuine ;)  can provie it but its my gut feeling. :oops:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 12, 2011, 03:03:40 PM
Quote from: "lilwendy"
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"
Dead bodies aren't entertaining. Nor are they pranks. A dead person was a person with a life and a family and loved ones who need to mourn him and wish he was still on this earth. What a HUGE distraction from the message... from the point of this whole hoax. Instead of discussing the hows and whys of healing the world and making that change and removing the stain of chi-mo allegations... everyone will be talking about the poor dead guy that MJ used in the process of his giant global fraud, I mean hoax. See? Wrong tone.


Totally agree with you here Bec, I just composed a long post saying much the same, but got way off topic and deleted it all!

Bottom line for me is that if this hoax is meant in any way to be entertainment then the dead body theory is a non-starter. It's gruesome, macabre and in no way family friendly. Period.

 
The only way I can begin to reconcile the use of a corpse with the hoax, is if exposing public corruption is the main reason for it and that demands a 'body', supposedly MJ's, in order for a possible sting operation to be successful.

While I agree with you Bec and Curls, this exercise has served to remind me, by putting in my face, how corrupt this world is (because I think sometimes we need reminding of what we are fighting against).

Some of the things I have found included:

UCLA getting sued for selling willed bodies
People selling body parts for profit
Kidnapping of homeless children for sale of parts
and a site that specializes in making you over and dressing you up to look pretty when you commit suicide.

I won't go any further because we don't need to FOCUS on the bad.  This world is messed up and it rips my heart and I know your heart out.  As morbid as it is... it is what is happening.

As for focusing on how this was pulled off and focusing on dead bodies... well, I don't think it's an all or nothing.  I sure hope people on here on so focussed on this hoax and investigation that it is ruling their life and nothing else exists (as that would not be healthy).

I for one am balancing work, family, church leadership, along with balancing investigation, AND impacting the world positively through charitable events, volunteering of time and money, and spreading the message of love through speaking engagements and one on one relationships.

It doesn't have to be an either/or.

So I hear what you are both saying and thank you for bringing it up.... this CAN be a distraction from the message... IF YOU ALLOW IT TO BE.  Allow people like curls and bec to remind us that we need to be ACTIVELY making a difference while investigating.

Love you Curls and Bec.... love you investigative team....

could someone else do all this to set michael up if they wanted to get rid of him without actually killing him?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 12, 2011, 03:08:21 PM
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)
I agree, I don't see it as morbid either, I would see it as an honor if that was the last thing I could contribute to the world.

I am still trying to figure some things out, I will try to get back with a theory later. I think the real corpse is very possible, but I still have to figure out why they would need to use it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjssoulmate on April 12, 2011, 03:34:14 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
who are you? :?:

With the pattern of thought and reasonings and teaching into logical theories, I'd say this is an attorney we are dealing with.


Sorry, I have to laugh at that, because every time I hear the word laywer I think of Harvey, and he doesn't strike me as logical or even particularly smart.  In fact, Harvey says some really stupid things most of the time.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjssoulmate on April 12, 2011, 03:36:17 PM
Quote from: "hesouttamylife"
Quote from: "Terror2k10"
Lou Ferrigno, Michael Jackson’s Personal Trainer for the O2 Concerts in London, has spoken fondly in an interview on

Michael Jackson's trainer Lou Ferrigno

 the Television show Good Day LA, about how MJ loved to play pranks quite often and how he would also disguise himself. He laughs and jokes along as he also tells how Michael used to place a Mannequin of himself in an ambulance to deter the Paparazzi. How very interesting…  :shock:  A hot room to warm the Mannequin to the right temperature.

 :shock: Does Michael have his own ambulance?  What ambulance did he use for this prank?  The same one in the photo?  Did I miss the link to this article because it’s kinda interesting?[/quote

Michael had an ambulance at Neverland.  I don't know what happened to it.  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 12, 2011, 03:37:16 PM
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)

Oh well, at least you'd be able to die knowing Michael Jackson wanted your body!!  ;)  :oops:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 12, 2011, 03:43:29 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
Hello TS! Thank you for another mind blowing and driving crazy question! :mrgreen:
I'm still working on my theory, trying to connect all the dots.
I just wanted to share one video with you guys, which made me go  :shock:  :o. It's called "Realistic Dummy Body Effects", http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Real ... dy-Effects (http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Realistic-Dummy-Body-Effects). People who can't stand blood, corpse and other disturbing things related to death please DO NOT WATCH!!! Actually i'm one of those people, so now i don't know how i'm going to sleep, even though i was trying to keep in mind that these are not real people but only DOLLS.  :?  
I just thought that maybe this video could help someone develop their own theory of who/what was/wasn't in ambulance and UCLA.

I am very very very sorry if this video caused any kind of negative feelings!!!  :oops:

Holy crap that's cool! It looks so real! But would EMT's be fooled with it? Would they not know it was not a real body? If it's possible to fool professional people with a dummy like this, it would be a possibility but I can't imagine that trained EMT's who handle real people numerous times a day would not notice. And if they really wanted to fool the EMT's with such an expensive dummy, why not make it look like MJ?

Is there more information about these kinds of dummies somewhere?

Aha that's what I was referring to when I was talking about Karen Fake when she was talking about her doing the make up of MJ for the funeral. They might have used a dummy like that for the funeral that looked exactly like Michael and probably Karen made the make up on him and of course she didn't recognize it wasn't Michael. Sorry this is off-topic but when I saw the video Kristina posted, I wanted to write it. These kind of dummies are used in movies and you can not seperate them from real human bodies. BUT I do not believe that EMTs could be faked with these kind of dummies. There had to be a real dead body and this explains the bald head, needle traces etc. And of course this means that we have EMTs who do not know about the hoax. This makes clear why they didn't recognize MJ and why the room was heated. Thank you for that video Kristina.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: lilwendy on April 12, 2011, 03:44:31 PM
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)

Oh well, at least you'd be able to die knowing Michael Jackson wanted your body!!  ;)  :oops:

(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 12, 2011, 03:50:05 PM
Quote from: "pepper"

Quote from: "suspicious mind"
umm is there any possibility that the ambulance showed up with a body already in it? :?

Excellent question, suspiciousmind!  This would make so much sense, to have the body already in the ambulance.  It would tie up so many loose ends and ethical questions concerning a donor body.  Of course the paramedics would have had to be in on it.  

If the body was already inside of the ambulance, why did they heat MJ's room? And if the paramedics are in on the hoax, why did they say that they couldn't recognize MJ and the patient was looking like an old man with a bald head?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 12, 2011, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: "lilwendy"
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)

Oh well, at least you'd be able to die knowing Michael Jackson wanted your body!!  ;)  :oops:

(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/loudlaff.gif)

In fact, I think it would be an honor for a great friend who loved Michael, but for society in general that would be macabre, yes!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 12, 2011, 03:52:15 PM
Quote from: "Datroot"
 The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.

A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.

If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 12, 2011, 03:55:43 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)
I agree, I don't see it as morbid either, I would see it as an honor if that was the last thing I could contribute to the world.

I am still trying to figure some things out, I will try to get back with a theory later. I think the real corpse is very possible, but I still have to figure out why they would need to use it.

Ditto... not that morbid.
As some of us have noted; people donate bodies for various things; so why not?  As to why a REAL body...?  
Did someone need to SEE "evidence"?  Was this part of the sting? The realism? The show?  He's dead...I saw the body. Or it must be true...I saw them take a body out of the house. etc.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  I L.O.V.E. CURLS COMMENT...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 12, 2011, 03:59:50 PM
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)
I agree, I don't see it as morbid either, I would see it as an honor if that was the last thing I could contribute to the world.

I am still trying to figure some things out, I will try to get back with a theory later. I think the real corpse is very possible, but I still have to figure out why they would need to use it.

Ditto... not that morbid.
As some of us have noted; people donate bodies for various things; so why not?  As to why a REAL body...?  
Did someone need to SEE "evidence"?  Was this part of the sting? The realism? The show?  He's dead...I saw the body. Or it must be true...I saw them take a body out of the house. etc.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  I L.O.V.E. CURLS COMMENT...

Probably a real body had to be used to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. They didn't want the EMTs or coroners or hospital know about the hoax.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 12, 2011, 04:12:29 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Datroot"
 The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.

A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.

If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.

In this case, Gina, if there was even this body, it could have been frozen for several days before finally being used on June 25.
I do not agree with this theory, would be so unethical, even though the FBI involved.
Certainly there was a more practical way. I believe that.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: finfin on April 12, 2011, 04:37:34 PM
I always thought this was a strange/interesting article from TMZ
 :shock:
http://www.tmz.com/2010/10/05/judah-fri ... aked-body/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/10/05/judah-friedlander-plays-dead-with-bloodsoaked-body/)
and see this thread discussing it:
viewtopic.php?f=172&t=14630 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=14630)

Judah Friedlander -- The FDNY Bloody Body Scare
10/5/2010 2:56 PM PDT by TMZ Staff  

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2010/10/05/1005-judah-friedlander-ex-tmz-v5.jpg)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TMZ has obtained a photo of "30 Rock" star Judah Friedlander hovering over a bloody body in NY last night after FDNY rushed to the scene -- but don't freak out ... it was all a false alarm.
 


Obviously, the dead guy isn't really dead -- he was just a human prop in a publicity stunt for Judah's book -- but a passerby saw the bloody mess inside SPiN in Manhattan ... and called 911.

The paramedics -- who are real BTW -- rushed to the scene, but as soon as they figured out it was all a joke, they laughed ... and then split.

When reached for comment, Judah told us, "I'm surprised someone dialed 911. When I saw Sylvester Stallone kill someone in 'The Expendables,' I didn't dial 911."

And here's a fun fact -- "The World Champion" Judah Friedlander also tells us, "Turns out one of the FDNY guys - was one of the FDNY  guys that hugged me in the Dave Matthews Band video 'Everyday' 9 years ago."
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 12, 2011, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
who are you? :?:

With the pattern of thought and reasonings and teaching into logical theories, I'd say this is an attorney we are dealing with.

I am not a lawyer. I'm biomedical formed five years last and I work at a federal university hospital. So I know a few things.
Sorry, I don't no know if you're talking to me, but I answered anyway! :lol:

I'm not sure who alovesmichael was referring to but
I meant TS.  I think that TS is an attorney.
YOU have quite the JOB!!  Career I'd say though :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 12, 2011, 04:48:51 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "pepper"

Quote from: "suspicious mind"
umm is there any possibility that the ambulance showed up with a body already in it? :?

Excellent question, suspiciousmind!  This would make so much sense, to have the body already in the ambulance.  It would tie up so many loose ends and ethical questions concerning a donor body.  Of course the paramedics would have had to be in on it.  

If the body was already inside of the ambulance, why did they heat MJ's room? And if the paramedics are in on the hoax, why did they say that they couldn't recognize MJ and the patient was looking like an old man with a bald head?
i always thought that the heated up room was supposed to further the idea that michael was ill and was cold all the time. if a real live corpse ( ;) ) was in a heated up room wouldn't it get funky pretty quickly? does anyone else rembember that someone , perhaps the chef or maybe both chefs talked about murry carrying oxigen tanks in and out the kitchen door.?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Uranus on April 12, 2011, 04:55:46 PM
If we want the less people to know this and moreover to include the description of the old frail man, then there are a couple of standard things. Not real MJ in the ambulance and a real corpse there. As for the corpse it should be a doner. I mean there are thousands of corpses from doners. If there was an arrangement made between MJ and a morgue it could be quite easy to have a body without consequencies. I think that it could be arranged so that:

1) The body of the next nearly fifty years old doner in the period about a month before 25th June, could be biochemichally preserved to prevent rigor mortis for a short period. This means that since he would be a doner, the proccess could be done immediately after death and before rigor mortis could occur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis)

2) Then be used for a couple of hours for MJ's purpose, and finally have the required preservance in order to fulfill the doner's wish to offer his remains to science or whatever.

No moral issues with that.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 12, 2011, 05:04:20 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)
I agree, I don't see it as morbid either, I would see it as an honor if that was the last thing I could contribute to the world.

I am still trying to figure some things out, I will try to get back with a theory later. I think the real corpse is very possible, but I still have to figure out why they would need to use it.

Ditto... not that morbid.
As some of us have noted; people donate bodies for various things; so why not?  As to why a REAL body...?  
Did someone need to SEE "evidence"?  Was this part of the sting? The realism? The show?  He's dead...I saw the body. Or it must be true...I saw them take a body out of the house. etc.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  I L.O.V.E. CURLS COMMENT...

Probably a real body had to be used to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. They didn't want the EMTs or coroners or hospital know about the hoax.

And the official Autopsy report was released or finalized...09.09.09 So there is def. a connection.
[/color]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: finfin on April 12, 2011, 05:15:37 PM
I think this an interesting point that  @MJonmind made about the ambulance pic that there could be a real body in the photo and not a dummy

viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&start=300#p309647 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&start=300#p309647)

Quote
Just thinking again about the MJ person, some say is a dummy. Now if this is all a stage set, and the actual photo with overlays was taken well before, ready to be presented as breaking news fresh on June 25, and there's the possibility to me that blue-shirt pony-tail guy is MJ, then I see no reason why that could not be actually MJ on the photo stretcher. If you look at the color of the EMT's tanned skin and the creamy white of the gloves then artificial lighting could produce the light tan color of MJ's skin matching the other MJ pic. Now if you look at the bottom of his left arm (scroll up), you can see the skin gathered in a fold the way skin naturally does with pressure. I don't know if a dummy body would do that unless it was very soft latex. The EMT doesn't have to apply any real pressure to the chest since he just has to pose. The tubes don't have to go internally. I know some thought his left shoulder seemed cut off, but he has really slimmed down and the angle perhaps hides some depth. The so-called bubbles on his nose are just shadows to me. Only the 2 paps, security, and EMT (actors) need be in on the hoax.  
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12160)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 12, 2011, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)
I agree, I don't see it as morbid either, I would see it as an honor if that was the last thing I could contribute to the world.

I am still trying to figure some things out, I will try to get back with a theory later. I think the real corpse is very possible, but I still have to figure out why they would need to use it.

Ditto... not that morbid.
As some of us have noted; people donate bodies for various things; so why not?  As to why a REAL body...?  
Did someone need to SEE "evidence"?  Was this part of the sting? The realism? The show?  He's dead...I saw the body. Or it must be true...I saw them take a body out of the house. etc.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  I L.O.V.E. CURLS COMMENT...

Probably a real body had to be used to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. They didn't want the EMTs or coroners or hospital know about the hoax.

And the official Autopsy report was released or finalized...09.09.09 So there is def. a connection.
[/color]

I'd say the Coroner knew:
Quote
TS
4-16. Autopsy Report “9-9-09, Date Finalized”

From TIAI Revealed, clear back in December 2009, I wrote: “... keep watching, we will yet see more developments regarding 9-9-09 and the hoax.” {Part 6; explanation of R26, posted on 12-22-09; http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 570#p27570 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1929&p=27570#p27570)}

And then on February 7, just one day before the autopsy report was released to the public, I wrote: “... keep watching for the 9-9-09 update. It will show very strong evidence of the hoax, and against the murder theory—as well as further evidence that TIAI (STUDY) has genuine hoax information (and is not a fake informer).” {http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=5024&p=78302#p78302}

When the report was released, everyone could see that the very last thing on the whole report said: “9-9-09, Date Finalized”. Was this a coincidence? There are several dates in the report: most of them in June or July, and a few in August; the latest date (other than the “Date Finalized”) is 8-19-09.

It is theoretically possible that this 9-9-09 date is a coincidence, but not likely for two main reasons. I mentioned the date one day before the report was released. And far more significant, is the resurrection aspect. Imagine if there was a real death, and a real resurrection; you would need a dead body to do an autopsy, so you wouldn’t be doing autopsy work on someone after they were resurrected! So the MJ “resurrection” could only happen once the autopsy was finalized: 9-9-09!

It’s amazing how many were shaken or lost faith over this report—in spite of the fact that the coroner has been part of hoax theories from the beginning: moving body in the helicopter taken to the coroner; coroner van video; Craig Harvey, etc.

Aside from the 9-9-09 resurrection aspect of the coroner’s report, there are numerous other fishy things—too many for me to discuss here. But for those interested: here are links to the report, as well as forum discussion and YouTube videos, all on the autopsy subject
{http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0208101jackson1.html;
http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tm ... rt_wm.pdf; (http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0208_mj_case_report_wm.pdf;)
http://www.tmz.com/2010/02/08/michael-j ... d-murray/; (http://www.tmz.com/2010/02/08/michael-jackson-coroners-report-propofol-cause-of-death-homicide-dr-conrad-murray/;)
http://i50.tinypic.com/2937pma.jpg; (http://i50.tinypic.com/2937pma.jpg;)
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 00#p65189; (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4113&hilit=hazel&start=100#p65189;)
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 17&t=5423; (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5423;)
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 40&t=5676; (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5676;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-7BoWyeJw; (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-7BoWyeJw;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNf54sftjPM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNf54sftjPM)}.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 12, 2011, 05:56:23 PM
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)
I agree, I don't see it as morbid either, I would see it as an honor if that was the last thing I could contribute to the world.

I am still trying to figure some things out, I will try to get back with a theory later. I think the real corpse is very possible, but I still have to figure out why they would need to use it.

Ditto... not that morbid.
As some of us have noted; people donate bodies for various things; so why not?  As to why a REAL body...?  
Did someone need to SEE "evidence"?  Was this part of the sting? The realism? The show?  He's dead...I saw the body. Or it must be true...I saw them take a body out of the house. etc.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  I L.O.V.E. CURLS COMMENT...

Probably a real body had to be used to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. They didn't want the EMTs or coroners or hospital know about the hoax.

And the official Autopsy report was released or finalized...09.09.09 So there is def. a connection.
[/color]

Yes, but I do not believe everyone in the coroner know about the hoax. Only just a couple of key people were enough to give out the date clues etc. So if a real dead body was used, the ones who made the autopsy didn't know about the hoax and probably the FBI arranged the released date of the autopsy report.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 12, 2011, 06:00:34 PM
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "pepper"

Quote from: "suspicious mind"
umm is there any possibility that the ambulance showed up with a body already in it? :?

Excellent question, suspiciousmind!  This would make so much sense, to have the body already in the ambulance.  It would tie up so many loose ends and ethical questions concerning a donor body.  Of course the paramedics would have had to be in on it.  

If the body was already inside of the ambulance, why did they heat MJ's room? And if the paramedics are in on the hoax, why did they say that they couldn't recognize MJ and the patient was looking like an old man with a bald head?
i always thought that the heated up room was supposed to further the idea that michael was ill and was cold all the time. if a real live corpse ( ;) ) was in a heated up room wouldn't it get funky pretty quickly? does anyone else rembember that someone , perhaps the chef or maybe both chefs talked about murry carrying oxigen tanks in and out the kitchen door.?

Let's say the heated room was another pre-preparation for the hoax to show how sick Michael was, we still have no answer about why the paramedics said they didn't recognize Michael. ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 12, 2011, 06:08:25 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot  :)
I agree, I don't see it as morbid either, I would see it as an honor if that was the last thing I could contribute to the world.

I am still trying to figure some things out, I will try to get back with a theory later. I think the real corpse is very possible, but I still have to figure out why they would need to use it.

Ditto... not that morbid.
As some of us have noted; people donate bodies for various things; so why not?  As to why a REAL body...?  
Did someone need to SEE "evidence"?  Was this part of the sting? The realism? The show?  He's dead...I saw the body. Or it must be true...I saw them take a body out of the house. etc.

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  I L.O.V.E. CURLS COMMENT...

Probably a real body had to be used to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. They didn't want the EMTs or coroners or hospital know about the hoax.

And the official Autopsy report was released or finalized...09.09.09 So there is def. a connection.
[/color]

Yes, but I do not believe everyone in the coroner know about the hoax. Only just a couple of key people were enough to give out the date clues etc. So if a real dead body was used, the ones who made the autopsy didn't know about the hoax and probably the FBI arranged the released date of the autopsy report.

Agreed...Trauma Gershwin  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 12, 2011, 06:20:24 PM
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Yes, but I do not believe everyone in the coroner know about the hoax. Only just a couple of key people were enough to give out the date clues etc. So if a real dead body was used, the ones who made the autopsy didn't know about the hoax and probably the FBI arranged the released date of the autopsy report.

Agreed...Trauma Gershwin  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

:lol: it seems like the one who filled the toe tags know about the hoax. :lol:

For the ones who want to know more about what Trauma Gershwin is.


[youtube:bm5miiwh]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrhsHXYAkEI[/youtube:bm5miiwh]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 12, 2011, 06:49:29 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
who are you? :?:

With the pattern of thought and reasonings and teaching into logical theories, I'd say this is an attorney we are dealing with.

I am not a lawyer. I'm biomedical formed five years last and I work at a federal university hospital. So I know a few things.
Sorry, I don't no know if you're talking to me, but I answered anyway! :lol:

I'm not sure who alovesmichael was referring to but
I meant TS.  I think that TS is an attorney.
YOU have quite the JOB!!  Career I'd say though :)

Sorry!!!  :lol: :oops:  :oops:  :oops:  :oops:  :oops:  :oops:  :oops:  :oops:  :oops:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 12, 2011, 06:49:53 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "pepper"

Quote from: "suspicious mind"
umm is there any possibility that the ambulance showed up with a body already in it? :?

Excellent question, suspiciousmind!  This would make so much sense, to have the body already in the ambulance.  It would tie up so many loose ends and ethical questions concerning a donor body.  Of course the paramedics would have had to be in on it.  

If the body was already inside of the ambulance, why did they heat MJ's room? And if the paramedics are in on the hoax, why did they say that they couldn't recognize MJ and the patient was looking like an old man with a bald head?


Can it be it was Michael in the room disguised as  a old and bald man? So the emt wouldn't recognize him ? That would fool the EMT.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 12, 2011, 06:59:37 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Datroot"
 The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.

A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.

If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.

Yes he could. In the neighbour state Oregon, plus in Washington and Montana, assisted suicide is legal. There are some rules of course, but you can choose your own date of death. After going through the 'approval procedure', a doctor can prescribe the lethal medications to the terminally ill patient and then the patient has to administer it himself. I am just thinking about some articles like "Michael Jackson 6 months to live" (in order to get approval for assisted suicide, you must have a life expectation of 6 months or less), "MJ killed himself" "MJ looked like sick old frail man", add to that the painkiller addictions, which many terminally ill patients have and it's starting to look like assisted suicide. I sent an email to determine if it's possible for someone from one of those states to self-administer the drugs in a state where it's not (yet) legal. If not, it is possible that they flew the body in on the morning of June 25th, right after the person was pronounced dead by a doctor in Oregon/Washington/Montana. We still have that close-down at LAX that morning. Was it really someone leaving, or (also) someone arriving? It would also explain why the body was already cold and stiff, even though the room temp was that high. The person would have been dead for hours, and that is what the EMT's thought.

It would also mean that the EMT's in the back of the ambulance, might not even be in the know. They would certainly think something is going on, but that doesn't mean they really KNOW. We think it's all fishy, and we don't know either. They might have been told that there is a shadow investigation going on by the FBI considering MJ's death and that the ambulance picture was faked for a certain reason. That is just a thought, but point is that if their supervisor tells them to shut up because the FBI is involved, they will. I do think the driver is in the know, because he backed out that slow. There is a difference between knowing something is wrong, and really KNOW about the hoax. I think only those absolutely necessary are truly knowing what's going on, because if this is a sting, there is also something like the safety of people and the operation. Who doesn't know, can't talk.

Same goes for people in the hospital. I believe one or two people at the hospital really KNOW, the ones in the room when they brought in the body might only suspect. We haven't heard from anyone at the hospital, which shows me that they too were asked not to talk about it. And the fire alarm at the hospital made sure that only a select few would be able to see the body (damage control).

An autopsy is not required with assisted suicide, so I don't think there even was an autopsy. The cause of death on the DC will be stated as natural, with mention of the decease. No autopsy is needed. The coroner's office knows, they have to. If he didn't slice up MJ, he knows it's a hoax, so in any case the coroner is aware of the hoax. An e-mail I received today from the coroner's office confirms that for me. It was a reply to a question I sent them in October 2009, which is extremely strange. It came from the chief of public services and I am pretty sure she receives many emails, questions and requests. An email from October 2009 would definitely be buried by now, so this tells me she saved it somewhere. Why answer now after 18 months? (still mailing, I will post it if something interesting comes up).

So a real body would definitely bring the number of people in on it down.


As for a living person (MJ or double) or no one at all being in the ambulance, that would increase the people in on it. You can't perform CPR on a person that is perfectly fine or non-exsisting, which means it was all a show and anyone in the room at Carolwood, the EMT's and everyone present in the hospital are in the know. Also, MJ or the double should leave the hospital at a certain moment, and with all the fans and paparazzi present there, that would be way too risky. I don't believe that they would take such a risk.

A real body might not be 'entertaining', but if this is a sting operation, it simply might have been necessary.

On a sidenote: I think Alberto Alvarez is an FBI agent and maybe the other bodyguards as well.

So in a nutshell, here is what I think might have occured that day:

Early morning: Terminally ill patient ends his life by self-administering lethal medications. He is pronounced dead by a doctor, they made sure everything was done according to the rules, and they put him on a plane to LAX to transport him later on to Carolwood Drive. There he is placed on the bed in the heated room, the bottles of propofol, the IV and everything else was planted and Murray and Alvarez waited until 12:21 to call '911'. I think it was a fake call to make sure the right ambulance with the informed driver would be sent. Ambulance 71 goes to the mansion, EMT's see dead person, scratch themselves behind their ears but have no other choice then to try and resuscitate the body, since Murray is the higher authority. They bring the body to UCLA, where Cooper is the higher authority and can make sure death won't be called until the planned time of 2:26 pm. The body stayed at the UCLA morgue and nothing was transported to the coroner, which is why there was no need for a real body bag. It does mean the helicopter crew is in the know, plus the people present at that time at the coroner's office. The one sitting up in the helicopter could have been anyone. I think the person was buried on July 6th, since we have a video of the Jacksons at a burial at FL on that day. INFORMED about the hoax/sting on that day: Murray, bodyguards (FBI agents?), ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present), Chief of LAFD Barry (resigned on May 28th, 2009 and left office on August 1, 2009 after only 2 years: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-chief-barry-resigns,0,4528069.story)) and Chief of LAPD Bratton (who resigned in August 2009, leaving in October, with 3 years left of his 5-year term: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bratton-resigns,0,6544648.story)) Ben Evenstad and his colleague, Dr. Cooper, the helicopter crew and the Coroner's office. So except from the family those are mostly government agencies and only a few civilians.

This means less people in the know. Some might suspect things, but I don't think you can avoid that, but you can make sure the number of people informed about the hoax is as low as possible. Of all the options (MJ, double, dummy, real corpse or nothing) a real corpse will have the less people involved, because I really don't think professional medical experts would be fooled with a dummy and IF they could be fooled with a dummy, they would have made sure the dummy looked like MJ, but it didn't.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 12, 2011, 07:07:18 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Datroot"
 The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.

A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.

If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.

Yes he could. In the neighbour state Oregon, plus in Washington and Montana, assisted suicide is legal. There are some rules of course, but you can choose your own date of death. After going through the 'approval procedure', a doctor can prescribe the lethal medications to the terminally ill patient and then the patient has to administer it himself. I am just thinking about some articles like "Michael Jackson 6 months to live" (in order to get approval for assisted suicide, you must have a life expectation of 6 months or less), "MJ killed himself" "MJ looked like sick old frail man", add to that the painkiller addictions, which many terminally ill patients have and it's starting to look like assisted suicide. I sent an email to determine if it's possible for someone from one of those states to self-administer the drugs in a state where it's not (yet) legal. If not, it is possible that they flew the body in on the morning of June 25th, right after the person was pronounced dead by a doctor in Oregon/Washington/Montana. We still have that close-down at LAX that morning. Was it really someone leaving, or (also) someone arriving? It would also explain why the body was already cold and stiff, even though the room temp was that high. The person would have been dead for hours, and that is what the EMT's thought.

It would also mean that the EMT's in the back of the ambulance, might not even be in the know. They would certainly think something is going on, but that doesn't mean they really KNOW. We think it's all fishy, and we don't know either. They might have been told that there is a shadow investigation going on by the FBI considering MJ's death and that the ambulance picture was faked for a certain reason. That is just a thought, but point is that if their supervisor tells them to shut up because the FBI is involved, they will. I do think the driver is in the know, because he backed out that slow. There is a difference between knowing something is wrong, and really KNOW about the hoax. I think only those absolutely necessary are truly knowing what's going on, because if this is a sting, there is also something like the safety of people and the operation. Who doesn't know, can't talk.

Same goes for people in the hospital. I believe one or two people at the hospital really KNOW, the ones in the room when they brought in the body might only suspect. We haven't heard from anyone at the hospital, which shows me that they too were asked not to talk about it. And the fire alarm at the hospital made sure that only a select few would be able to see the body (damage control).

An autopsy is not required with assisted suicide, so I don't think there even was an autopsy. The cause of death on the DC will be stated as natural, with mention of the decease. No autopsy is needed. The coroner's office knows, they have to. If he didn't slice up MJ, he knows it's a hoax, so in any case the coroner is aware of the hoax. An e-mail I received today from the coroner's office confirms that for me. It was a reply to a question I sent them in October 2009, which is extremely strange. It came from the chief of public services and I am pretty sure she receives many emails, questions and requests. An email from October 2009 would definitely be buried by now, so this tells me she saved it somewhere. Why answer now after 18 months? (still mailing, I will post it if something interesting comes up).

So a real body would definitely bring the number of people in on it down.


As for a living person (MJ or double) or no one at all being in the ambulance, that would increase the people in on it. You can't perform CPR on a person that is perfectly fine or non-exsisting, which means it was all a show and anyone in the room at Carolwood, the EMT's and everyone present in the hospital are in the know. Also, MJ or the double should leave the hospital at a certain moment, and with all the fans and paparazzi present there, that would be way too risky. I don't believe that they would take such a risk.

A real body might not be 'entertaining', but if this is a sting operation, it simply might have been necessary.

On a sidenote: I think Alberto Alvarez is an FBI agent and maybe the other bodyguards as well.

So in a nutshell, here is what I think might have occured that day:

Early morning: Terminally ill patient ends his life by self-administering lethal medications. He is pronounced dead by a doctor, they made sure everything was done according to the rules, and they put him on a plane to LAX to transport him later on to Carolwood Drive. There he is placed on the bed in the heated room, the bottles of propofol, the IV and everything else was planted and Murray and Alvarez waited until 12:21 to call '911'. I think it was a fake call to make sure the right ambulance with the informed driver would be sent. Ambulance 71 goes to the mansion, EMT's see dead person, scratch themselves behind their ears but have no other choice then to try and resuscitate the body, since Murray is the higher authority. They bring the body to UCLA, where Cooper is the higher authority and can make sure death won't be called until the planned time of 2:26 pm. The body stayed at the UCLA morgue and nothing was transported to the coroner, which is why there was no need for a real body bag. It does mean the helicopter crew is in the know, plus the people present at that time at the coroner's office. The one sitting up in the helicopter could have been anyone. I think the person was buried on July 6th, since we have a video of the Jacksons at a burial at FL on that day. INFORMED about the hoax/sting on that day: Murray, bodyguards (FBI agents?), ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present), Chief of LAFD Barry (resigned on May 28th, 2009 and left office on August 1, 2009 after only 2 years: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-chief-barry-resigns,0,4528069.story)) and Chief of LAPD Bratton (who resigned in August 2009, leaving in October, with 3 years left of his 5-year term: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bratton-resigns,0,6544648.story)) Ben Evenstad and his colleague, Dr. Cooper, the helicopter crew and the Coroner's office. So except from the family those are mostly government agencies and only a few civilians.

This means less people in the know. Some might suspect things, but I don't think you can avoid that, but you can make sure the number of people informed about the hoax is as low as possible. Of all the options (MJ, double, dummy, real corpse or nothing) a real corpse will have the less people involved, because I really don't think prefessional medical experts would be fooled with a dummy and IF they could be fooled with a dummy, they would have made sure the dummy looked like MJ, but it didn't.


Souza once all this hoax is over, you can write a murder book. :lol: (Agatha Cristie)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 12, 2011, 07:30:08 PM
Is there any photo or video of the ambulance arriving at the house", the paparazzi took no photos or videos of the route from the ambulance to the hospital :?:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 12, 2011, 07:39:32 PM
So the paramedics said the patient looked like an old man and they didnt know it was MJ but in the ambo pic it looked like a younger person and it looked like MJ.

So maybe paramedics worked on a real patient but MJ was just photoshopped in.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 12, 2011, 08:29:44 PM
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Datroot"
 The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.

A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.

If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.

Yes he could. In the neighbour state Oregon, plus in Washington and Montana, assisted suicide is legal. There are some rules of course, but you can choose your own date of death. After going through the 'approval procedure', a doctor can prescribe the lethal medications to the terminally ill patient and then the patient has to administer it himself. I am just thinking about some articles like "Michael Jackson 6 months to live" (in order to get approval for assisted suicide, you must have a life expectation of 6 months or less), "MJ killed himself" "MJ looked like sick old frail man", add to that the painkiller addictions, which many terminally ill patients have and it's starting to look like assisted suicide. I sent an email to determine if it's possible for someone from one of those states to self-administer the drugs in a state where it's not (yet) legal. If not, it is possible that they flew the body in on the morning of June 25th, right after the person was pronounced dead by a doctor in Oregon/Washington/Montana. We still have that close-down at LAX that morning. Was it really someone leaving, or (also) someone arriving? It would also explain why the body was already cold and stiff, even though the room temp was that high. The person would have been dead for hours, and that is what the EMT's thought.

It would also mean that the EMT's in the back of the ambulance, might not even be in the know. They would certainly think something is going on, but that doesn't mean they really KNOW. We think it's all fishy, and we don't know either. They might have been told that there is a shadow investigation going on by the FBI considering MJ's death and that the ambulance picture was faked for a certain reason. That is just a thought, but point is that if their supervisor tells them to shut up because the FBI is involved, they will. I do think the driver is in the know, because he backed out that slow. There is a difference between knowing something is wrong, and really KNOW about the hoax. I think only those absolutely necessary are truly knowing what's going on, because if this is a sting, there is also something like the safety of people and the operation. Who doesn't know, can't talk.

Same goes for people in the hospital. I believe one or two people at the hospital really KNOW, the ones in the room when they brought in the body might only suspect. We haven't heard from anyone at the hospital, which shows me that they too were asked not to talk about it. And the fire alarm at the hospital made sure that only a select few would be able to see the body (damage control).

An autopsy is not required with assisted suicide, so I don't think there even was an autopsy. The cause of death on the DC will be stated as natural, with mention of the decease. No autopsy is needed. The coroner's office knows, they have to. If he didn't slice up MJ, he knows it's a hoax, so in any case the coroner is aware of the hoax. An e-mail I received today from the coroner's office confirms that for me. It was a reply to a question I sent them in October 2009, which is extremely strange. It came from the chief of public services and I am pretty sure she receives many emails, questions and requests. An email from October 2009 would definitely be buried by now, so this tells me she saved it somewhere. Why answer now after 18 months? (still mailing, I will post it if something interesting comes up).

So a real body would definitely bring the number of people in on it down.


As for a living person (MJ or double) or no one at all being in the ambulance, that would increase the people in on it. You can't perform CPR on a person that is perfectly fine or non-exsisting, which means it was all a show and anyone in the room at Carolwood, the EMT's and everyone present in the hospital are in the know. Also, MJ or the double should leave the hospital at a certain moment, and with all the fans and paparazzi present there, that would be way too risky. I don't believe that they would take such a risk.

A real body might not be 'entertaining', but if this is a sting operation, it simply might have been necessary.

On a sidenote: I think Alberto Alvarez is an FBI agent and maybe the other bodyguards as well.

So in a nutshell, here is what I think might have occured that day:

Early morning: Terminally ill patient ends his life by self-administering lethal medications. He is pronounced dead by a doctor, they made sure everything was done according to the rules, and they put him on a plane to LAX to transport him later on to Carolwood Drive. There he is placed on the bed in the heated room, the bottles of propofol, the IV and everything else was planted and Murray and Alvarez waited until 12:21 to call '911'. I think it was a fake call to make sure the right ambulance with the informed driver would be sent. Ambulance 71 goes to the mansion, EMT's see dead person, scratch themselves behind their ears but have no other choice then to try and resuscitate the body, since Murray is the higher authority. They bring the body to UCLA, where Cooper is the higher authority and can make sure death won't be called until the planned time of 2:26 pm. The body stayed at the UCLA morgue and nothing was transported to the coroner, which is why there was no need for a real body bag. It does mean the helicopter crew is in the know, plus the people present at that time at the coroner's office. The one sitting up in the helicopter could have been anyone. I think the person was buried on July 6th, since we have a video of the Jacksons at a burial at FL on that day. INFORMED about the hoax/sting on that day: Murray, bodyguards (FBI agents?), ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present), Chief of LAFD Barry (resigned on May 28th, 2009 and left office on August 1, 2009 after only 2 years: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-chief-barry-resigns,0,4528069.story)) and Chief of LAPD Bratton (who resigned in August 2009, leaving in October, with 3 years left of his 5-year term: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bratton-resigns,0,6544648.story)) Ben Evenstad and his colleague, Dr. Cooper, the helicopter crew and the Coroner's office. So except from the family those are mostly government agencies and only a few civilians.

This means less people in the know. Some might suspect things, but I don't think you can avoid that, but you can make sure the number of people informed about the hoax is as low as possible. Of all the options (MJ, double, dummy, real corpse or nothing) a real corpse will have the less people involved, because I really don't think prefessional medical experts would be fooled with a dummy and IF they could be fooled with a dummy, they would have made sure the dummy looked like MJ, but it didn't.


Souza once all this hoax is over, you can write a murder book. :lol: (Agatha Cristie)

You are saying they flew a dead person on the plane, loaded it and unloaded it and transported it to Carolwood?  How can you get a dead person on a plane?  In a coffin?  And I know dead people are transported...like TO a funeral HOME, but is it legal to just take one to a HOME?  unless you are saying cuz it's fbi??
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 12, 2011, 08:45:38 PM
I'm not a US citizen, so I have no clue what is legal or not in the US, but indeed if FBI is involved, who says it's not possible?

And how did they transport the body? No clue either. Coffin, body bag? Or the "Weekend at Bernie's way" (that last one was of course a joke).
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjaliveomg on April 12, 2011, 09:25:23 PM
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
who are you? :?:

With the pattern of thought and reasonings and teaching into logical theories, I'd say this is an attorney we are dealing with.

I am not a lawyer. I'm biomedical formed five years last and I work at a federal university hospital. So I know a few things.
Sorry, I don't no know if you're talking to me, but I answered anyway! :lol:

Pensei que so tinha eu de brasileiro aqui =P :mrgreen:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on April 12, 2011, 10:11:11 PM
(http://www.bestofsherlock.com/ref/pagetdrawing.jpg)
Sherlock Holmes in The Final Problem. Art by Sidney Paget (1893)

“I owe you many apologies, dear Watson, but it was all-important that it should be thought I was dead, and it is quite certain that you would not have written so convincing an account of my unhappy end had you not yourself thought that it was true.”  Sherlock Holmes, “The Empty House”

1. Design a persuasive death scene. The best kind—and your only option, really—is a death that leaves no recognizable body behind. Explosions or fires are good choices, provided you plant a skeleton in the wreckage that may plausibly be identified as your own. Water-related tragedies in which the corpse is unrecoverable are also ideal, as was Holmes's choice in “The Final Problem”—he made it appear as though he’d tumbled over the lofty Reichenback Falls, the treacherous bottom of which authorities didn’t even bother to search for his remains. Holmes’s footprints led up to the precipice and disappeared, leading all concerned to conclude he had fallen to his death—when in fact he merely climbed over a nearby ledge, where he hid until the scene was deserted and he could make a stealthy escape.

2. Skip town. As long as you remain near your old familiar haunts or anyone who might recognize you, you’re in danger. Get as far as possible from your home and the scene of your “death,” as quickly as you can. When Holmes miraculously returns to London in “The Empty House,” he tells Watson about the exotic places he’d lived in the intervening three years: Tibet, Persia, Mecca, and Egypt, among other distant locales. Those were extreme choices, to be sure, but extraordinarily safe ones—the chances of his meeting someone there whom he had known prior to his “death” were low indeed.

3. Assume a new identity. Though your body lives on, your former identity must die. Grow facial hair, change your walk, and develop a new accent to help bury obvious traces of your former self. While traveling far and wide, Holmes went undercover as a Norwegian explorer named Sigerson, whose exploits and discoveries were fantastic enough to make international headlines. Yet he was never recognized as Holmes himself, so convincing was this disguise.

4. Arrange access to a supply of money. Travel is expensive, and you’ll no longer have access to bank accounts or lines of credit established under your real name. You can always bring cash with you or deposit money into an anonymous offshore account, but keep in mind that making any sudden, last-minute transfers or withdrawals into that account before your death is extremely suspect behavior. If you’re able to plan your death significantly in advance, make gradual, monthly transfers over a period of several years to avoid suspicion. Less advisable was Holmes’s technique: He revealed himself to his brother Mycroft, who became Holmes’s sole confidant and source of funds. Had Mycroft been compromised in some way, Holmes’s secret would’ve been revealed, and his life put into considerable danger. Which brings us to the next point:

5. Reveal yourself to no one. The wrenching heartache endured by your loved ones is your enemies’ most convincing proof you’re really dead. Should their grief-stricken ululations seem forced or overly theatrical, someone is sure to smell a rat. This profound separation from friends and relations will undoubtedly be the most trying aspect of your ordeal, as even cold and logical Holmes admits---“Several times during the past three years I have taken up my pen to write to you,” he apologizes to Watson—but such cruel alienation is necessary. Holmes explains why: ”I feared your affectionate regard for me should tempt you to some indiscretion which would betray my secret.”

6. Wait until your enemies are at their weakest to return. With time, the fires of your enemies’ vengeance will cool, and their guard will fall. They may themselves die or be jailed (for such are dangers of the criminal life) and when they are at their most defenseless, as Holmes judged his to be shortly before his dramatic resurrection, it’s time to return home.

7. Minimize the shock to your friends and family. When Holmes finally revealed himself to Watson, he does it in such a shocking way—which Holmes himself later confesses was “unnecessarily dramatic”—that poor Watson, a veteran of war and a man of sound constitution, faints on the spot. Imagine the effect such an appearance would have on the elderly or the anxious, and do your all to introduce yourself to them gradually. Save surprising flourishes for your enemies![/b]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 12, 2011, 10:18:28 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Datroot"
 The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.

A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.

If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.

Interesting posts.......
in one of my very early postings titled, "Coincidences..." I posted the gematria match for John Doe......care to guess, lol:
71 = John Doe = Im Alive = spider
71 is the number on the ambulance.........
*gematria is a basic system of giving a numeric value to letters/words..a=1, b=2, c=3 and so on....here is a link the old post, it explains it much better if you are interested in this:
viewtopic.php?f=253&t=10681&hilit=+coincidences (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=253&t=10681&hilit=+coincidences)

Anyways.....the phrase John Doe has always peaked my curiosity...thank you very much for discussing it.  Do you think the use of a John Doe could also be symbolic?  Throughout Michael's life he may well have been a John Doe to us all.  It seems as though not many people really knew him at all........hopefully that's about to change, in a big way  :)

Blessings to you guys.....thanks again!
LOVE
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 12, 2011, 11:08:10 PM
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong. The American public is gonna squirm. I'm squirming. It's a hurdle to get over in the PR department. I'm a hoaxer who's just been putting my nose to the grind stone for almost 2 years developing tremendous respect for the man and his life's work and been in awe of what he has put together here, and I'm sitting here saying it's... sick.

I've read everything you guys have said and I'm sorry. It's dark and really gross and somehow it feels disrespectful to the alleged dead dude. People donate their bodies to science all the time, sure, but on no level can this hoax, in any of it's suspected or theorized forms, be considered science.

But I'm going to push further and try to debunk it once and for all. A real body seems to me to be an unnecessary risk. The paramedics are in on it, the coroner is in on it, if Richelle Cooper is on board, who else do they have to fool? Really, Dr. Cooper has to be in on it, you're not going to fool him/her on the table while he/she is applying lifesaving techniques. The only thing anyone at the hospital knows at the time is that the patient didn't make it. That's why they're not talking, because no one saw anything. With the reputation at UCLA (much discussed and documented), this is the only realistic way that NO ONE has told their story. Remember, only Jermaine said that the doctors worked on MJ for "hours". There were no reports of what went on at UCLA until 2010 with the whole wrongful death lawsuit that Joe seems to be perpetually filing (more below), and then they said that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA that day.
http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/)
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/29/la ... -hospital/ (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/29/lawyer-michael-jacksons-heart-beat-at-hospital/)

[theory]So back at the ER... Paramedics (in on it) and dummy on stretcher enter the ER. (I still think MJ might be dressed as a Paramedic at this point. Remember during the prelim, only 2 Paramedics testified and there  were clearly 3 at the scene) Paramedics push stretcher directly to closed off ER wing (as reports indicated was made available) where they kill some time, prepare the dummy by wrapping in a sheet... or alternatively MJ changes out of Paramedics uniform and into sheet, not body bag, so he can breathe and not get too claustrophobic. Makes sense that MJ goes for a chopper ride so he can sit up and then do the jump out of the van scene.[/theory]

So with the body theory, where does this brief heartbeat at UCLA fit into the story? Did they successfully revive this dead person, albeit briefly? If so they are miracle workers and made a break through in medical science.

Or did Dr. Cooper (medical record) lie? If so, that indicates that Dr. Cooper is in on it anyway so again, who further would they need to fool with a corpse?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 12, 2011, 11:08:56 PM
I am taking a trip back in time to the very beginning. The reports that came out regarding the L.A. Coroner’s Office, Michael/cadaver being transported in the helicopter, a press conference regarding the autopsy report, Chief Coroner Ed Winters, etc. 8-)

There's Something Fishy About Michael Jackson's Death
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUB-AEi9qeY&feature=related[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by TheYoungTurks on Jun 26, 2009

The majority of the videos that show this optical illusion are made by hoax believers. A suggestion was made. ;)
Quote
MJonmind wrote:
Remember the helicopter pics where clearly a body in a bag went from UCLA into the helicopter but a flat board left it and was carried into the county coroner's office. And of course we saw the movement of the body in the heli.
Michael Jackson's Body Arrives At L.A. Coroner's Office
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo&feature=related[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by PoliticsNewsPolitics on Jun 25, 2009
Helicopter Air Rescue 5 delivers the body of Michael Jackson to the L.A. Coroner's Office for a required autopsy.
The white sheet Michael/cadaver was wrapped in is not unusual after all. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy)
Quote
Process
The body is received at a medical examiner's office or hospital in a body bag or evidence sheet. A brand new body bag is used for each body to ensure that only evidence from that body is contained within the bag. Evidence sheets are an alternate way to transport the body. An evidence sheet is a sterile sheet that the body is covered in when it is moved.
Read this wiki page regarding Cadaver’s and the history of them. Yikes. :shock:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver)
Quote
A cadaver, corpse or lich is a dead human body. The Latin term cadaver is normally used for a body in medical training or research.
Quote
TS_comments wrote:
The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?
I believe there was a real corpse in the room when the paramedics arrived. I believe they worked on a cadaver that was already being used for science research whether it was donated or there is more than one way to skin a cat. The Coroner’s Office has unclaimed bodies and unidentified bodies in their possession. It would not be hard to find a cadaver fitting the needs of replacing Michael with similar illnesses and drugs in the system recently or put into the body after the fact. The body would need to be somewhat newly deceased but kept on ice in the Coroner’s Office storage.

The FBI could have played a role in getting the body by using a sting operation reason. There is also the possibility that Michael has an insider at the Coroner’s Office or it could be a link through his friend Dr. Arnie Klien due to his connections with UCLA. Dr. Arnie Klien also has connections to the FDA.
:ugeek:

http://coroner.lacounty.gov/htm/Coroner_Home.htm (http://coroner.lacounty.gov/htm/Coroner_Home.htm)
http://coroner.lacounty.gov/htm/ucplist.cfm (http://coroner.lacounty.gov/htm/ucplist.cfm)
http://coroner.lacounty.gov/htm/uipsearc.cfm (http://coroner.lacounty.gov/htm/uipsearc.cfm)

Assistant Chief E. Winters who is listed in the autopsy report as the one who was involved in Michael’s death investigation. He is also the one who went to Dr. Klien’s office to get Michael’s medical records.  :ugeek:

Assistant Chief Coroner Ed Winter's Speaks To The Press
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEHxfKzHLuc[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by hollywoodtv on Jul 14, 2009


Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran is being reported as the one who did the autopsy. :ugeek:
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-j ... has-begun/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jacksons-autopsy-has-begun/)
Quote
Michael Jackson's Autopsy Has Begun
6/26/2009 7:07 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/06/26/0626_mj_sathya_bn_15-copy-1.jpg)
The Los Angeles County Coroner has started the autopsy on Michael Jackson.

Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran is performing the autopsy. The Dr. was a star witness in the O.J. Simpson case.

UPDATE: We're told some members of the Jackson family are headed to the coroner's office.

Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran is listed on the Coroner’s website as the Chief Medical Examiner Coroner. :ugeek:

Craig Harvey is the spokesman for the Coroner’s Office.
L.A. Coroner's Office Michael Jackson Press Conference
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmdrNn3HZcY&feature=related[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by PoliticsNewsPolitics on Jun 27, 2009
The L.A. Coroner's Office holds a press conference a day after the death of Michael Jackson, and hours after an autopsy was performed. The coroner's office spokesman says the medical examiner has ordered additional testing, pathological and pulmonary, on the corpse of Michael Jackson to determine a cause of death, that will take about 4-6 weeks. No indication of foul play.

He also acknowledges that "he was taking some prescription medications," but will not answer any questions about drug.
Hoax perspective video. Just for fun and for an alternate theory of Craig Harvey.
Michael Jackson Is Alive (Death Hoax Minisode 5)

[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOqNPTppd5s&feature=fvsr[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by misterp21 on Dec 12, 2010
Discusses Actor Craig Harvey. His ties to this whole MJ Hoax

Jackson's Body Moved to 'Undisclosed Location'
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvSwPSEag8U&feature=fvwrel[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by AssociatedPress on Jun 27, 2009
The body of Michael Jackson, who died Thursday, has been released by the Los Angeles County coroner's office. (June 27)
You can hear Murray in the background on this version of the 911 call. 8-)
Video: The Jackson 911 Call
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FnNtcHZgTQ&feature=relmfu[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by AssociatedPress on Jun 26, 2009
The Los Angeles City Fire Department has released the 911 call from Michael Jackson's home to paramedics. Caller says the singer wasn't responding. (June 26)
Quote
MJonmind wrote:
MJ is again wrapped in the sheet (remember Black or White "I ain't scared of no sheets" ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan)
The wording in Black or White is a reference to the KKK. "I aint afraid of no sheets."-MJ  8-)  KKK members wear sheets.

I do believe that one part of the sting operation deals with the drug problems in Hollywood and the over prescribing of meds by the doctors and the pharmecy that issues them.(Mickey Fine Pharmacy) I also believe it has to do with FDA issues and the manufactors of Propofol. Big pharmaceutical manufactors do not care what goes into the drugs or the side effects as long as they make a profit. Tainted medicines are resold all the time in order to dump them and make a profit.

The epidemic outbreak of swine flu made the pharm industry come up with a vaccine and it was almost mandatory to get the vaccine. This is part of the NWO plans to depopulate the world. There are so many commercials on T.V. here in the USA talking about the bad side effects from taking a so called good drug for a medical problem. These commercials talk about if you or a loved one has suffered (whatever) please call so and so office for legal help to sue.
:ugeek:

TRUTH TV WORLD NEWS-THE NEW WORLD ORDER IS HERE! THEY ARE DUMPING CHEMICALS ON US!
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPMzDThyWXo[/youtube:3ulg4adv]

Doctors speak out about H1N1 VACCINE DANGERS
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1K74Tnrrok[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by 91177info on Oct 22, 2009
Baxter Patent H1N1-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17458061/Baxt ... pplication (http://www.scribd.com/doc/17458061/Baxter-Vaccine-Patent-Application)
Are vaccines today more dangerous, in some cases, than the diseases? Has something gone wrong with the system or the companies making them? Filmed at the 4th International Public Conference on Vaccinations (sponsored by the Nat'l Vaccine Information Center) in October, 2009, listen to what these health professionals have to say!

Bayer Exposed ( HIV Contaminated Vaccine )
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by octomedia on Nov 2, 2006
http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html (http://www.whale.to/vaccines.html)
[Video] Bayer Sells AIDS-Infected Drug Banned in U.S. in Europe, Asia - Unearthed documents show that the drug company Bayer sold millions of dollars worth of an injectable blood-clotting medicine -- Factor VIII concentrate, intended for hemophiliacs -- to Asian, Latin American, and some European countries in the mid-1980s, although they knew that it was tainted with AIDS. Bayer knew about the fact that the drug was tainted and told the FDA to keep things under wraps while they made a profit off of a drug that infected its patients. If these allegations are true, then both Bayer and the FDA are at fault for this catastrophe. FDA regulators helped to keep the continued sales hidden, asking the company that the problem be ''quietly solved without alerting the Congress, the medical community and the public,'' according to the minutes of a 1985 meeting
octomedia

Vaccine Information and Awareness sites:

http://thinktwice.com/ (http://thinktwice.com/)

http://www.vaclib.org/ (http://www.vaclib.org/)

Robert Gallo: The Man That Created AIDS
[youtube:3ulg4adv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDxZ7PX8YGI&feature=related[/youtube:3ulg4adv]
Quote
Uploaded by DrLeonardHorowitz on Sep 14, 2007
Where did AIDS come from? Some say it doesn't matter, as long as we find a cure. But what if the man and money that created it, are still spreading it along with lies and half-truths? Watch this clip from In Lies We Trust: The CIA, Hollywood & Bioterrorism, to learn where AIDS really originated.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 12, 2011, 11:12:29 PM
Going with the John Doe thought still.....
I found some interesting things......
a couple of imdb.com listings for John Doe:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033891/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033891/)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0007170/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0007170/)

here is the Wiki for John Doe.....it has some interesting facts about the origins of the phrase:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doe)

I think that's about it for tonight...I think we need a "sleepy" emoticon 3>)
Love and Blessings!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 12, 2011, 11:21:00 PM
Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA

3/30/2010 6:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff  
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2010/03/30/0329_murray_jackson_ex_getty.jpg)
TMZ has learned doctors who worked on Michael Jackson at the UCLA Medical Center ran two EKGs on the singer, and at least one doctor who interpreted the results claims there was heart rhythmic activity both times.

Michael Jackson and Dr. Conrad Murray
Furthermore, sources tell TMZ Dr. Conrad Murray insists he was able to restart Jackson's heart at the singer's home before paramedics arrived and then maintained heart activity in the ambulance.

Dr. Murray's evaluation contradicts paramedics at the scene who wanted to take Jackson to the morgue, not UCLA, because they believed he was dead.

It also contradicts Joe Jackson's lawyer, Brian Oxman, who tells TMZ he believes Jackson was dead even before paramedics arrived at the house. Oxman says the weak pulse detected at UCLA was in reaction to resuscitation efforts.

We're told the criminal case is shaping up as a legal war between medical experts, who will be interpreting medical tests and charts in various ways -- always confusing for a jury.

http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: g32 on April 12, 2011, 11:43:14 PM
the same bs as always...this TS is playin with us and we dont realize it yet? This will last 4ever! Bs! Ts u will make something new up whenever u want to cntinue with tr silly game! Stop it!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on April 13, 2011, 12:00:44 AM
Do you think the hoax is BS?  Because for me, the thing is  I'd be looking for answers to questions about the hoax, how it happened and why even if TS was not here.  In fact, we've established many times that there were Believers before TS.  This is not to minimize TS, just sayin'...

In terms of there being a body or no body;  whether MJ was alive when he got to the hospital or not; the room was very hot; the children saw MJ's body in the hospital and said goodbye to him; Soule Shaun was the alias, the paramedics didn't recognize it was MJ and the body looked like that of an old Asian man,  etc, etc. ...
Couldn't all of that be a lie?  Absolutely not one ounce of truth in it.    None of those things happened.  It just seems to me that having no body is easiest, cleanest, and involves less people.  But, I'm still working on this being an irrefutable argument.  Off to search for more clues! (http://carlynnwhitt.com/sitebuilder/images/clown_car-413x600.jpg)  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 13, 2011, 12:11:18 AM
Quote from: "bec"
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong.
I agree but what if MJ used a double who was ill but never really died...the article about Dr Murray saying he was still alive when they got to UCLA...that could mean the double...or maybe if it was a double then the double died by Euthanasia (although maybe not as it isn't legal in Cali).
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 12:24:29 AM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
Quote from: "bec"
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong.
I agree but what if MJ used a double who was ill but never really died...the article about Dr Murray saying he was still alive when they got to UCLA...that could mean the double...or maybe if it was a double then the double died by Euthanasia (although maybe not as it isn't legal in Cali).

So attending EMTs remained on scene at Carrolwood for nearly an hour and then drove nice and slow after 2 tries to get out of the driveway, then proceeded to stroll into the ER at a leisurely pace with no visible medical equipment (IV or compressions being given) so as to be so cavalier with a morbidly sick man in the name of MJ's hoax?

Not a chance.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 13, 2011, 12:27:50 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
Quote from: "bec"
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong.
I agree but what if MJ used a double who was ill but never really died...the article about Dr Murray saying he was still alive when they got to UCLA...that could mean the double...or maybe if it was a double then the double died by Euthanasia (although maybe not as it isn't legal in Cali).

So attending EMTs remained on scene at Carrolwood for nearly an hour and then drove nice and slow after 2 tries to get out of the driveway, then proceeded to stroll into the ER at a leisurely pace with no visible medical equipment (IV or compressions being given) so as to be so cavalier with a morbidly sick man in the name of MJ's hoax?

Not a chance.

Maybe a dummy was taken from Carolwood to UCLA and then during that time MJ or a double or someone who was really dead got swapped and taken inside the hospital...that way there is less people in on the hoax.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 13, 2011, 01:31:45 AM
Quote from: "wishingstar"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Datroot"
 The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.

A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.

If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.

Interesting posts.......
in one of my very early postings titled, "Coincidences..." I posted the gematria match for John Doe......care to guess, lol:
71 = John Doe = Im Alive = spider
71 is the number on the ambulance.........

*gematria is a basic system of giving a numeric value to letters/words..a=1, b=2, c=3 and so on....here is a link the old post, it explains it much better if you are interested in this:
viewtopic.php?f=253&t=10681&hilit=+coincidences (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=253&t=10681&hilit=+coincidences)

Anyways.....the phrase John Doe has always peaked my curiosity...thank you very much for discussing it.  Do you think the use of a John Doe could also be symbolic?  Throughout Michael's life he may well have been a John Doe to us all.  It seems as though not many people really knew him at all........hopefully that's about to change, in a big way  :)

Blessings to you guys.....thanks again!
LOVE

Very interesting approach, thank you.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 13, 2011, 01:46:24 AM
I stick with my version of dead person:
1. Cancer romanian patient with whom MJ had agreement to pay family when he dies as a Michael and he died at MJ's house;
2. Michael was taken to the hospital as hoax started and continued according to the plan, or
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 13, 2011, 01:50:04 AM
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Datroot"
 The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.

A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.

If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.

In this case, Gina, if there was even this body, it could have been frozen for several days before finally being used on June 25.
I do not agree with this theory, would be so unethical, even though the FBI involved.
Certainly there was a more practical way. I believe that.

We are just speculating here, how should I know if there was body or not?
I was just thinking a real body means less people involved.

no body or a dummy or the real MJ alive means they are all in, the emt, UCLA and the coroner.

The other alternative is that was the read Michael  - dead :(
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 13, 2011, 02:01:14 AM
scorpionchik, I think the intricate long-planned numerology of dates does not fit with a random death, unless it was an assisted suicide, which I'm uncomfortable with, but of course who knows.

The 911 call has to be fake because they hung up on the caller, and there are two different 911 call takes. But even if they dispatched real EMT's, and a cadaver had been brought to the house and unknowing EMT's worked on him, would they even be able to get the tracheal tube into him if he had been dead for a few hours, even if on ice and warmed by the the high room temp. Eventually at the house when they found out it was MJ, they must have thought things were highly suspicious, all those drugs everywhere, a doctor that doesn't seem to know what he's doing and didn't even call 911 right away.  When they get to the hospital "someone" clearly sits up on the stretcher right in front of them. Nope, I just can't see the 3 paramedics not in on it. Then 2 at UCLA and maybe 2 at the coroners need to be in on it.
Quote
bec
Warm room was a ruse to throw us off the trail. It was a rabbit hole, but the rabbit hole had a fork in it.
I think Lou Ferrigno’s story of MJ sending an ambulance with a manniquin to deter paps, is another ruse to throw us off the trail. There's a labyrinth of blocked paths to confuse.

Quote
PureLove
Aha that's what I was referring to when I was talking about Karen Fake when she was talking about her doing the make up of MJ for the funeral. They might have used a dummy like that for the funeral that looked exactly like Michael and probably Karen made the make up on him and of course she didn't recognize it wasn't Michael.
I think she's in on it, and her job is to spur non-believers on for justice. I've seen the videos of her emotional and she's just as convincing as LaToya or Katherine. Anyway, she could instead have been working 9 hours on MJ himself (alive of course), and as well Paris put that half necklace on him. The other Michael and LaToya were helping to dress him. If it was a dead MJ or another person, or dummy, oh come on! They can't be that clueless.

Quote
lilwendy
Also note the tatooed on eyes and eyebrows... wasn't that mentioned in the autopsy report?

Please debunk because I haven't REALLY thought it through.
In some videos and pics of MJ, he's not wearing eye-liner or lipstick and others he is, so I don't think they were tatooed. I think much of the autopsy was just parts of other autopsies and embellished with things that the gullible public would eat up about MJ.
Quote
SoldierofLOVE
4. Arrange access to a supply of money. Travel is expensive, and you’ll no longer have access to bank accounts or lines of credit established under your real name. You can always bring cash with you or deposit money into an anonymous offshore account, but keep in mind that making any sudden, last-minute transfers or withdrawals into that account before your death is extremely suspect behavior. If you’re able to plan your death significantly in advance, make gradual, monthly transfers over a period of several years to avoid suspicion. Less advisable was Holmes’s technique: He revealed himself to his brother Mycroft, who became Holmes’s sole confidant and source of funds. Had Mycroft been compromised in some way, Holmes’s secret would’ve been revealed, and his life put into considerable danger. Which brings us to the next point:

Some of the lawsuits against MJ (possibly even the 20 mill of the first chi/mol case) the money could have been actually sent to an account saved all these years for this hoax.

It seems to me that for every option of the “dead” MJ in the ambulance to the hospital, there is several details propping it up and several that rule it out. Could this have deliberately been done by MJ to keep us going in circles and make sure that the truth was not easily gotten?

Wishingstar I liked your latest Gematria find of 71= John Doe = Im Alive= spider

PureLove, thanks for the video showing that whoever was at the coroner may have been the living dead!
[youtube:3u8d1mqq]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrhsHXYAkEI&feature=player_embedded[/youtube:3u8d1mqq]
The biggest thing I see against my thinking that it is MJ himself as the "dead" MJ being taken to UCLA, is the statement by TS that there needs to be as few as possible in on the hoax, in which case it would need to be a conveniently dead person who matches MJ in age, body size, sex etc. which to me (as Bec says) kinda gives the hoax an unpleasant taste. MJ values each person, and using even a cadaver with no family says that person is of no value, and I think MJ wouldn't want to say or imply that, but I could be wrong. He always took such great care with each person no matter who they were, that's part of why I love him.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 13, 2011, 03:24:17 AM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
.......
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.

This is a possibility.let's say he was sick and tired and wanted to get away.....maybe he told his people "just tell them I died"....but it doesn't match with the idea that the hoax was planned for years.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Nyuki on April 13, 2011, 03:47:35 AM
Perhaps, we think too hard.

Ambulance personnel and doctors are there to save people. Even if it is needed when someone's life can be saved by faking his death and the FBI is involved. Everything was well prepared and the people involved knew exactly what he or she had to do on the morning of June 25.

The crime scene was trimmed and the 911 call was made and Alvarez said exactly what he was commanded to tell. Ambulance arrived but knew what to do because of the script. A living MJ was well prepared in the ambulance with the mouth cap etc, because they knew there would be photographers outside the house. In the famous photograph of BE you see a hand on MJ chest. But when I'm on a photo with a burning cigarette in my mouth, it does not necessarily mean that I smoke. So who says that the EMT was really pumping his chest. I think they had al lot of fun on the way to the hospital. The doctor took over from there and they gave the family a little time to say  goodbye. I do not think Frank D and Randy P saw MJ when he was in the hospital, even if he was dead.

MJ escaped by helicopter in the direction of the coroner’s office and from there they brought him to a safe place. They prepared a fake autopsy report and ready.

Perhaps you think, this way there are too many people involved. Sometimes you have to  take a risk and in case of MJ and his status, it can hardly be otherwise. Most people involved are not allowed to talk by their profession.  
   
The stories are all scripted and the people who do not know, tell their story as they have experienced it.
I hope it’s clear what I’m trying to tell, because English is not my first language.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 13, 2011, 03:57:33 AM
I thought I posted last night but can't find it so I'll say again what I thought I'd already said!

It's hard to keep on topic, i.e. just talk about the ambulance ride from the house to the hospital. We keep jumping ahead to what happened at the hospital, helicopter, van and coroner's. I think this is because for the most part, we're assuming that whatever happened in the bedroom regarding a body/dummy/no body continued through all the other events of the day.

Have we considered that all these locations could be separate, like scenes or sets in a movie?  The situation regarding a body/no body/dummy in the bedroom may have been changed for the ambulance ride, changed for the hospital and so on and so on?

I don't think we necessarily need to find one option that fits all locations.

With this in mind, we might find it easier to focus only on the ambulance ride. It might also explain why TS, if he knows that things were different in different places, asked us to look just at this part, like he's already got them separated out in his mind, but we haven't!

Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Nyuki on April 13, 2011, 04:34:42 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
.......
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.

This is a possibility.let's say he was sick and tired and wanted to get away.....maybe he told his people "just tell them I died"....but it doesn't match with the idea that the hoax was planned for years.

Some people assume that the hoax was planned for years, but who says it's the truth! So what you are saying is in my opinion not such a crazy idea.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjfansince4 on April 13, 2011, 05:26:32 AM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Datroot"
 The body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them.  I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.

A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.

If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.

Yes he could. In the neighbour state Oregon, plus in Washington and Montana, assisted suicide is legal. There are some rules of course, but you can choose your own date of death. After going through the 'approval procedure', a doctor can prescribe the lethal medications to the terminally ill patient and then the patient has to administer it himself. I am just thinking about some articles like "Michael Jackson 6 months to live" (in order to get approval for assisted suicide, you must have a life expectation of 6 months or less), "MJ killed himself" "MJ looked like sick old frail man", add to that the painkiller addictions, which many terminally ill patients have and it's starting to look like assisted suicide. I sent an email to determine if it's possible for someone from one of those states to self-administer the drugs in a state where it's not (yet) legal. If not, it is possible that they flew the body in on the morning of June 25th, right after the person was pronounced dead by a doctor in Oregon/Washington/Montana. We still have that close-down at LAX that morning. Was it really someone leaving, or (also) someone arriving? It would also explain why the body was already cold and stiff, even though the room temp was that high. The person would have been dead for hours, and that is what the EMT's thought.

It would also mean that the EMT's in the back of the ambulance, might not even be in the know. They would certainly think something is going on, but that doesn't mean they really KNOW. We think it's all fishy, and we don't know either. They might have been told that there is a shadow investigation going on by the FBI considering MJ's death and that the ambulance picture was faked for a certain reason. That is just a thought, but point is that if their supervisor tells them to shut up because the FBI is involved, they will. I do think the driver is in the know, because he backed out that slow. There is a difference between knowing something is wrong, and really KNOW about the hoax. I think only those absolutely necessary are truly knowing what's going on, because if this is a sting, there is also something like the safety of people and the operation. Who doesn't know, can't talk.

Same goes for people in the hospital. I believe one or two people at the hospital really KNOW, the ones in the room when they brought in the body might only suspect. We haven't heard from anyone at the hospital, which shows me that they too were asked not to talk about it. And the fire alarm at the hospital made sure that only a select few would be able to see the body (damage control).

An autopsy is not required with assisted suicide, so I don't think there even was an autopsy. The cause of death on the DC will be stated as natural, with mention of the decease. No autopsy is needed. The coroner's office knows, they have to. If he didn't slice up MJ, he knows it's a hoax, so in any case the coroner is aware of the hoax. An e-mail I received today from the coroner's office confirms that for me. It was a reply to a question I sent them in October 2009, which is extremely strange. It came from the chief of public services and I am pretty sure she receives many emails, questions and requests. An email from October 2009 would definitely be buried by now, so this tells me she saved it somewhere. Why answer now after 18 months? (still mailing, I will post it if something interesting comes up).

So a real body would definitely bring the number of people in on it down.


As for a living person (MJ or double) or no one at all being in the ambulance, that would increase the people in on it. You can't perform CPR on a person that is perfectly fine or non-exsisting, which means it was all a show and anyone in the room at Carolwood, the EMT's and everyone present in the hospital are in the know. Also, MJ or the double should leave the hospital at a certain moment, and with all the fans and paparazzi present there, that would be way too risky. I don't believe that they would take such a risk.

A real body might not be 'entertaining', but if this is a sting operation, it simply might have been necessary.

On a sidenote: I think Alberto Alvarez is an FBI agent and maybe the other bodyguards as well.

So in a nutshell, here is what I think might have occured that day:

Early morning: Terminally ill patient ends his life by self-administering lethal medications. He is pronounced dead by a doctor, they made sure everything was done according to the rules, and they put him on a plane to LAX to transport him later on to Carolwood Drive. There he is placed on the bed in the heated room, the bottles of propofol, the IV and everything else was planted and Murray and Alvarez waited until 12:21 to call '911'. I think it was a fake call to make sure the right ambulance with the informed driver would be sent. Ambulance 71 goes to the mansion, EMT's see dead person, scratch themselves behind their ears but have no other choice then to try and resuscitate the body, since Murray is the higher authority. They bring the body to UCLA, where Cooper is the higher authority and can make sure death won't be called until the planned time of 2:26 pm. The body stayed at the UCLA morgue and nothing was transported to the coroner, which is why there was no need for a real body bag. It does mean the helicopter crew is in the know, plus the people present at that time at the coroner's office. The one sitting up in the helicopter could have been anyone. I think the person was buried on July 6th, since we have a video of the Jacksons at a burial at FL on that day. INFORMED about the hoax/sting on that day: Murray, bodyguards (FBI agents?), ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present), Chief of LAFD Barry (resigned on May 28th, 2009 and left office on August 1, 2009 after only 2 years: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-chief-barry-resigns,0,4528069.story)) and Chief of LAPD Bratton (who resigned in August 2009, leaving in October, with 3 years left of his 5-year term: http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bratton-resigns,0,6544648.story)) Ben Evenstad and his colleague, Dr. Cooper, the helicopter crew and the Coroner's office. So except from the family those are mostly government agencies and only a few civilians.

This means less people in the know. Some might suspect things, but I don't think you can avoid that, but you can make sure the number of people informed about the hoax is as low as possible. Of all the options (MJ, double, dummy, real corpse or nothing) a real corpse will have the less people involved, because I really don't think prefessional medical experts would be fooled with a dummy and IF they could be fooled with a dummy, they would have made sure the dummy looked like MJ, but it didn't.


Souza once all this hoax is over, you can write a murder book. :lol: (Agatha Cristie)

You are saying they flew a dead person on the plane, loaded it and unloaded it and transported it to Carolwood?  How can you get a dead person on a plane?  In a coffin?  And I know dead people are transported...like TO a funeral HOME, but is it legal to just take one to a HOME?  unless you are saying cuz it's fbi??


interesting theory souza. it definitely makes sense.

as far as flying a body, all i can offer is personal knowledge. my grandma passed away in california, but she wanted to be buried in south dakota. we flew her about a month after she died. it took a while to get the death certificate. she was flown in her coffin that was put in a cardboard box i believe (so people don't have to see a coffin being loaded onto the plane i surmise). this was of course a commercial plane. if michael had help from the FBI as well as a private plane (both seem accessible), then this transition could have been much, much smoother than the norm.

i don't think there are any legal constrictions as to where you take the body. if you are next of kin or put in the will, then technically you are responsible for the body. i am not completely sure about this though.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 13, 2011, 07:03:21 AM
Quote from: "Nyuki"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
.......
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.

This is a possibility.let's say he was sick and tired and wanted to get away.....maybe he told his people "just tell them I died"....but it doesn't match with the idea that the hoax was planned for years.

Some people assume that the hoax was planned for years, but who says it's the truth! So what you are saying is in my opinion not such a crazy idea.

But in this case all the numerology meant nothing?

All the hoax started under the impulse of the last moment?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 13, 2011, 07:37:25 AM
Quote from: "bec"
A real body is sick. It's just gross and weird and sick and twisted and just wrong. The American public is gonna squirm. I'm squirming. It's a hurdle to get over in the PR department. I'm a hoaxer who's just been putting my nose to the grind stone for almost 2 years developing tremendous respect for the man and his life's work and been in awe of what he has put together here, and I'm sitting here saying it's... sick.

I've read everything you guys have said and I'm sorry. It's dark and really gross and somehow it feels disrespectful to the alleged dead dude. People donate their bodies to science all the time, sure, but on no level can this hoax, in any of it's suspected or theorized forms, be considered science.

But I'm going to push further and try to debunk it once and for all. A real body seems to me to be an unnecessary risk. The paramedics are in on it, the coroner is in on it, if Richelle Cooper is on board, who else do they have to fool? Really, Dr. Cooper has to be in on it, you're not going to fool him/her on the table while he/she is applying lifesaving techniques. The only thing anyone at the hospital knows at the time is that the patient didn't make it. That's why they're not talking, because no one saw anything. With the reputation at UCLA (much discussed and documented), this is the only realistic way that NO ONE has told their story. Remember, only Jermaine said that the doctors worked on MJ for "hours". There were no reports of what went on at UCLA until 2010 with the whole wrongful death lawsuit that Joe seems to be perpetually filing (more below), and then they said that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA that day.
http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/)
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/29/la ... -hospital/ (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/29/lawyer-michael-jacksons-heart-beat-at-hospital/)

[theory]So back at the ER... Paramedics (in on it) and dummy on stretcher enter the ER. (I still think MJ might be dressed as a Paramedic at this point. Remember during the prelim, only 2 Paramedics testified and there  were clearly 3 at the scene) Paramedics push stretcher directly to closed off ER wing (as reports indicated was made available) where they kill some time, prepare the dummy by wrapping in a sheet... or alternatively MJ changes out of Paramedics uniform and into sheet, not body bag, so he can breathe and not get too claustrophobic. Makes sense that MJ goes for a chopper ride so he can sit up and then do the jump out of the van scene.[/theory]

So with the body theory, where does this brief heartbeat at UCLA fit into the story? Did they successfully revive this dead person, albeit briefly? If so they are miracle workers and made a break through in medical science.

Or did Dr. Cooper (medical record) lie? If so, that indicates that Dr. Cooper is in on it anyway so again, who further would they need to fool with a corpse?

Hey bec!

Yes, I totally get your uneasiness about a real body.  It creeps me out to no end.  Come to think of it...even a realistic dummy could be a John Doe.  I like this quote of yours from above:

"The only thing anyone at the hospital knows at the time is that the patient didn't make it. "

I think that's very right...also, you mentioned Jermaine had said the doctors worked for hours on MJ.  I do recall that...and come to think of it (again), how can that be?  MJ arrived at the hospital a little after 1pm (correct?) and he was pronounced dead just before 3pm (correct?) where do hours come into play?  The news conference was later on....6pm or so?  The deal with hour vs hours reminds me of the memorial with pain vs pains.  

You'll have to excuse me....I haven't had my morning tea or coffee yet..feeling more tea-like today, lol!  Anyways..great post bec.....hope you have a beautiful day!

Blessings Always!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: jacilovesmichael on April 13, 2011, 08:50:40 AM
Wasn't there a story about MJ hanging out at a funeral home or morgue asking questions about the embalming process? Wasn't it after James Brown's funeral? Or am I making things up?

Bec - I totally get and respect how you feel about a real body being used. And I would suspect that a lot of people would feel the same way. But I do think that many will feel how I do as well. Whether it's morbid or not, perhaps it was necessary to pull the hoax off. And I'm sure it wasn't a casual decision. I would bet very careful and respectful planning went into it.

I guess I just think of it differently. I mean, it's just a body. And spiritually speaking, I personally don't care what happens to my body when I leave this earth. Have any of you ever been to a cadaver lab? I was forced to spend some time there when I was in school. At first it made me want to puke, but by the end of it I felt differently. The souls the bodies belonged to obviously chose to be there. Not only are their bodies there, they are cut open and disesembled just so students can learn where things are located. I got to hold a human head for a few seconds one day, if you want to talk about morbid  :lol:

I'm just saying - I don't think it's that important how we individually feel about the morality of using a real body. People around the world are all going to react differently to MJ not really being dead, period. Some are going to throw a hissy fit regardless, and some are going to celebrate. What's sick and morbid to ME is that the world is being lied to by the media and the government about virtually everything we perceive to be true. If one dead body had to be used in order to fight back, then I think only God can judge that.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on April 13, 2011, 09:05:56 AM
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
Wasn't there a story about MJ hanging out at a funeral home or morgue asking questions about the embalming process? Wasn't it after James Brown's funeral? Or am I making things up?Bec - I totally get and respect how you feel about a real body being used. And I would suspect that a lot of people would feel the same way. But I do think that many will feel how I do as well. Whether it's morbid or not, perhaps it was necessary to pull the hoax off. And I'm sure it wasn't a casual decision. I would bet very careful and respectful planning went into it.

I guess I just think of it differently. I mean, it's just a body. And spiritually speaking, I personally don't care what happens to my body when I leave this earth. Have any of you ever been to a cadaver lab? I was forced to spend some time there when I was in school. At first it made me want to puke, but by the end of it I felt differently. The souls the bodies belonged to obviously chose to be there. Not only are their bodies there, they are cut open and disesembled just so students can learn where things are located. I got to hold a human head for a few seconds one day, if you want to talk about morbid  :lol:




I'm just saying - I don't think it's that important how we individually feel about the morality of using a real body. People around the world are all going to react differently to MJ not really being dead, period. Some are going to throw a hissy fit regardless, and some are going to celebrate. What's sick and morbid to ME is that the world is being lied to by the media and the government about virtually everything we perceive to be true. If one dead body had to be used in order to fight back, then I think only God can judge that.

at this link describes the time spehttp://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.c ... start=25nt (http://spehttp://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1382&start=25nt) by Michael with James Brown after he died, he spent a number of hours with James at the funeral home.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 13, 2011, 09:18:08 AM
Quote from: "jacilovesmichael"
Wasn't there a story about MJ hanging out at a funeral home or morgue asking questions about the embalming process? Wasn't it after James Brown's funeral? Or am I making things up?

Bec - I totally get and respect how you feel about a real body being used. And I would suspect that a lot of people would feel the same way. But I do think that many will feel how I do as well. Whether it's morbid or not, perhaps it was necessary to pull the hoax off. And I'm sure it wasn't a casual decision. I would bet very careful and respectful planning went into it.

I guess I just think of it differently. I mean, it's just a body. And spiritually speaking, I personally don't care what happens to my body when I leave this earth. Have any of you ever been to a cadaver lab? I was forced to spend some time there when I was in school. At first it made me want to puke, but by the end of it I felt differently. The souls the bodies belonged to obviously chose to be there. Not only are their bodies there, they are cut open and disesembled just so students can learn where things are located. I got to hold a human head for a few seconds one day, if you want to talk about morbid  :lol:

I'm just saying - I don't think it's that important how we individually feel about the morality of using a real body. People around the world are all going to react differently to MJ not really being dead, period. Some are going to throw a hissy fit regardless, and some are going to celebrate. What's sick and morbid to ME is that the world is being lied to by the media and the government about virtually everything we perceive to be true. If one dead body had to be used in order to fight back, then I think only God can judge that.

Hey jaci....great to see you!  
You make some really good points as well......wow, I think I am glad the cadaver lab was not on the art history list of requirements, lol!  Really interesting, however.  I think the bottom line is that of respect.  Thanks for the great post.....hope things are going well for you!  :)
Have a beautiful day....

Blessings Always!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 13, 2011, 09:25:31 AM
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 09:35:41 AM
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "pepper"

Quote from: "suspicious mind"
umm is there any possibility that the ambulance showed up with a body already in it? :?

Excellent question, suspiciousmind!  This would make so much sense, to have the body already in the ambulance.  It would tie up so many loose ends and ethical questions concerning a donor body.  Of course the paramedics would have had to be in on it.  

If the body was already inside of the ambulance, why did they heat MJ's room? And if the paramedics are in on the hoax, why did they say that they couldn't recognize MJ and the patient was looking like an old man with a bald head?


Can it be it was Michael in the room disguised as  a old and bald man? So the emt wouldn't recognize him ? That would fool the EMT.

If the EMTs are not in on the hoax, why would he bother to disguise himself? The disguise could fool them but the health condition couldn't. They would understand that he was healthy and not dead(!) after they worked on him. So no reason to disguise himself as an old man.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 09:51:07 AM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

That's really the bottom line in my opinion.

This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.

All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.

And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.

Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.

In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.

1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm) If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.

2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/) also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.

Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.

Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)

But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.

So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 09:52:05 AM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.

I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 13, 2011, 09:53:13 AM
My head will give a knot! :roll:
Whatever the theory, if there were a hoax, there is another way: the paramedics, the team of dr. Cooper and the coroner's staff has to know the hoax. A doctor does not work alone, much less a lawyer. So, at least 10 people would knowed everything.
Then:
1.Se was a synthetic doll, paramedics, doctors and coroners have to know.
2. If there was nobody in the ambulance or if it was a double alive, they also would of necessity know.
3. If there was any cadaver, somebody that not looked like Michael, they also discover that.

Just in this theory  has exemptions the knowledge of many people:

4. If it was a cadaver of the double maybe none of them would need to know, just a few FBI agents but then comes the question of ethics, legal and emotional. I do not know if Michael would do that, depending on the story, maybe.
 :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Nyuki on April 13, 2011, 09:54:56 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Nyuki"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
.......
3.Michael was really bad and taken to the hospital, but did not die there, and hoax plan kicked in.

This is a possibility.let's say he was sick and tired and wanted to get away.....maybe he told his people "just tell them I died"....but it doesn't match with the idea that the hoax was planned for years.

Some people assume that the hoax was planned for years, but who says it's the truth! So what you are saying is in my opinion not such a crazy idea.

But in this case all the numerology meant nothing?

All the hoax started under the impulse of the last moment?

First I respect everyone's opinions and I'm open to anything, but try to see things from both sides. If you believe that numerology means anything, I will be the last to say that you shouldn't.

 Your thoughts that MJ was sick and tired and wanted to leave, in this case it is quite possible that he deliberately chose that date .... born-burned-hoax.

 But the clues and numerology aren't the reasons that I do believe in the hoax. So for me it is quite possible that everything had to happen suddenly. The longer you do preparations, the greater the chance that something leaked. And if the FBI is involved here, I don't think MJ had much choice to make things fit into the numerology. And besides that, who cares about numerology if your life is at stake

 Aren't we  a bit of topic here
:oops:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 13, 2011, 09:59:19 AM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! :(
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 10:02:30 AM
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! :(

Haters will be haters always. But I do not believe fans would find him guilty after the formal explanation of the hoax. ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:10:44 AM
Quote
But the clues and numerology aren't the reasons that I do believe in the hoax.

Then you're on the wrong thread, lol. You are actually off topic but that's another topic  :lol:

Quote
A doctor does not work alone, much less a lawyer. So, at least 10 people would knowed everything.

Not necessarily, I addressed this in an earlier post. I was actually trying to debunk my own theory, that from UCLA, only Dr. Cooper would be in on it. Of course Dr. Cooper would have a real life team to be accounted for. So, let's say no one at UCLA, including Dr. Cooper's team, knew a thing other then "the patient did not make it". There were no reports of what happened at UCLA that day, and no Dr.'s name mentioned, until March 2010, when articles came out saying MJ had a heartbeat in ER. For 9 months (June-March), only Jermaine mentioned anything at all about what happened in ER, so there were no official statements, ie. nothing for those at the scene to refute, "hey wait a minute, I was there, that's not what happened", would not be risked.

For 9 months, "the patient did not make it" would certainly suffice, happens every day in ER. No one saw anything so no one talks... there's nothing to say.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:15:58 AM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! :(

Haters will be haters always. But I do not believe fans would find him guilty after the formal explanation of the hoax. ;)

I have discovered from reading the fan forum discussions, roughly about half the fans think MJ is (they think was) a junkie that is in part responsible for his own death anyway.

If the fans would condemn him based on the illusion he presented, how even they gonna feel about the use of a real person's corpse when the hoax is revealed?

It's not just haters that will be turned off.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 10:22:10 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! :(

Haters will be haters always. But I do not believe fans would find him guilty after the formal explanation of the hoax. ;)

I have discovered from reading the fan forum discussions, roughly about half the fans think MJ is (they think was) a junkie that is in part responsible for his own death anyway.

If the fans would condemn him based on the illusion he presented, how even they gonna feel about the use of a real person's corpse when the hoax is revealed?

It's not just haters that will be turned off.

When the explanation comes from the FBI and MJ, I do not think that they will be turned off. If they do so, that means they're not fans of him and they are already haters of him. So I don't think Michael would care about what they would think or feel and neither should we care about them. :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:24:12 AM
Michael is trying to save the world, yes? I think he cares a great deal just by default.

You can't say he cares enough to save the world and then also say he doesn't care what they think.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:25:30 AM
And besides, caring is beside the point. No one has refuted my 2 strong points against the body theory. PR aka caring what people think is totally irrelevant in the debate points I presented.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 13, 2011, 10:28:11 AM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"


Can it be it was Michael in the room disguised as  a old and bald man? So the emt wouldn't recognize him ? That would fool the EMT.

If the EMTs are not in on the hoax, why would he bother to disguise himself? The disguise could fool them but the health condition couldn't. They would understand that he was healthy and not dead(!) after they worked on him. So no reason to disguise himself as an old man.

I'm not being disrespectful, but maybe MJ without the make-up, wig etc actually does look like a bald, old man, at least a balding, older man - there's nothing wrong with that aged 50! Perhaps that's what he wanted them to see, to find out if they would recognise him, a bit of an experiment to find out if appearing 'au naturale' was the best disguise ever! Could be that it was/is.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 10:29:25 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Michael is trying to save the world, yes? I think he cares a great deal just by default.

You can't say he cares enough to save the world and then also say he doesn't care what they think.

It's too different things Bec. To save the world and to think for what every each of the people would feel like about the details of the hoax. He knows that he can not make everyone think and feel the same way. I'm sure that Michael already knew that he would be losing some fans as some of the fans would not even find out about the hoax. Loosing some soldiers to win the war is inevitable and I do believe that he got that risk when he decided to do the hoax.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:31:54 AM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "bec"
Michael is trying to save the world, yes? I think he cares a great deal just by default.

You can't say he cares enough to save the world and then also say he doesn't care what they think.

It's too different things Bec. To save the world and to think for what every each of the people would feel like about the details of the hoax. He knows that he can not make everyone think and feel the same way. I'm sure that Michael already knew that he would be losing some fans as some of the fans would not even find out about the hoax. Loosing some soldiers to win the war is inevitable and I do believe that he got that risk when he decided to do the hoax.

Again, it's totally beside my 2 debate points. No one has yet stepped up to debunk them. That's why we are here, so says TS. So let's debate.

Come on, hit me, lol.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:34:43 AM
Quote
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.

1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002) ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.

2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu) ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.

 
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 10:35:12 AM
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"


Can it be it was Michael in the room disguised as  a old and bald man? So the emt wouldn't recognize him ? That would fool the EMT.

If the EMTs are not in on the hoax, why would he bother to disguise himself? The disguise could fool them but the health condition couldn't. They would understand that he was healthy and not dead(!) after they worked on him. So no reason to disguise himself as an old man.

I'm not being disrespectful, but maybe MJ without the make-up, wig etc actually does look like a bald, old man, at least a balding, older man - there's nothing wrong with that aged 50! Perhaps that's what he wanted them to see, to find out if they would recognise him, a bit of an experiment to find out if appearing 'au naturale' was the best disguise ever! Could be that it was/is.

So you say the EMTS are in on the hoax, right? Why would Michael like to test the EMTs if they could recognize him or not, especially on a day like that? He uses disguises all the time and he already knew they could not recognize him in a disguise. So IMO he didn't need to use a disguise to test the EMTs that day, especially if the EMTs are in on the hoax, he didn't need to use any disguises.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 10:37:53 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "bec"
Michael is trying to save the world, yes? I think he cares a great deal just by default.

You can't say he cares enough to save the world and then also say he doesn't care what they think.

It's too different things Bec. To save the world and to think for what every each of the people would feel like about the details of the hoax. He knows that he can not make everyone think and feel the same way. I'm sure that Michael already knew that he would be losing some fans as some of the fans would not even find out about the hoax. Loosing some soldiers to win the war is inevitable and I do believe that he got that risk when he decided to do the hoax.

Again, it's totally beside my 2 debate points. No one has yet stepped up to debunk them. That's why we are here, so says TS. So let's debate.

Come on, hit me, lol.

I know hun, I was replying to AnaMarcia and your anwers about how the fans would feel like about the hoax. :D I gotta read your post once more and I need to think more about how I can write the exact thoughts of mine in english. :lol: I will be quoting your debate points when I was answering that one. ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 13, 2011, 10:38:43 AM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
PureLove can be, but still, I agree with Bec and Fordtocarr. Many would blame Michael! See what's happening in the trial, for many, even dead he's guilty! :(

Haters will be haters always. But I do not believe fans would find him guilty after the formal explanation of the hoax. ;)

Clearly as we get into the more serious issues of the hoax there's going to be some desertion in the ranks; can't be helped.  This isn't all fun & games here.  Thanks for posting the video about Trauma Gershwin; I have the whole playlist on YT and have talked to kittycat10100 for over a yr on her investigations.  We've discussed the body & FBI issue for a long time. She found so much evidence that she knows MJ is alive, but didn't want to endanger his life.  She had all her findings written in her comments on her channel but has DELETED everything; good thing I still have notes... What she's found now she wouldn't say, but she's still digging & helping with those Autopsy vids.

On the body double issue:  A LONG time ago E Casanova had a notice on his MySpace page he had a terminal illness. I saw it. He disappeared...then MAGICALLY reappeared alive & well with a new MySpace page & song 'What's Wrong With Your Mind' that starts out with heartbeats & ambulance sounds; this continues through out the song. CREEPY...? Code Blue Room #305. So what happened? Another diversion or strange part of this???  :?:

http://www.myspace.com/ecasanovafansite
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 13, 2011, 10:40:06 AM
i am not sure if this is the best place for this question but hey leave it to me to get off topic. :oops:  if grace was not with the kids as a nanny when this happened and michael was gone until morning hours for rehearsals where were the kids and who was with them?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:40:44 AM
Sorry Love, I'm just eager to do this thing and have to leave for work soon.

I'm chomping at the bit, lol. I got my hoax back on via TS.

(Ps. MisTrinity333, numerology debunks the terminal patient theory.)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Terror2k10 on April 13, 2011, 10:43:19 AM
"In December 2008 someone called in a radio show in the United States and claimed Michael Jackson had died from a drug overdose. After investigation it was all put down to a hoax, but not before many distraught fans had heard the news and a local TV station reported it."
Same exact thing! It is said a mannequin was used but the e.m.t noticed what it was not human. Was it a test run for the real attempt or a botched hoax?
One June 25,2009 it seems everything worked perfect on the part that all the media bought it hook.line and sinker,while the ambulance went to the hospital,as Mj was heading to LAX as per using Jermaine's slip up,He said that “Michael was not with us way before he arrived to the airport.” . 2 days later after the "death" "Michael’s trainer admitted that Michael loved pulling pranks, such as sending mannequins in ambulances to throw off the Paparrazzi." A clue to the masses,but no one but a few thousand begin to pick up on some inconsistencies.I am no way saying this is correct but only using clues that have been given to us,who else can shut down a airport for 2 hours,other than the F.B.I.,A mysterious private jet departed from the airport during this time. The staff on the airport had been told to ignore the plane.Who told them to ignore the plane? My money is with the F.B.I! ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 10:45:25 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.

1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002) ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.

2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu) ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.

 

1- I do not believe a long dead person was used but someone who died very close to that time was used and the room was kept hot to keep the body warm. I didn't understand what you wanted to mean with "a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology"? I do not think the numerology debunks a person who died close to 12.21 if that is what you mean with it. Why would it be so hard to find someone who died in the morning of June 25th?

2- We have had many contradicting stories about where MJ "died". One of them is, he died at the hospital. First of we do not know if this statement came from the hospital but we kind of heard it from Murray himself. Anything can come from Murray as he's the key person of the hoax. Even if it came from the hospital, as I wrote before I do believe that very few key people were used in the hoax from all of the places like the coroner, the hospital etc.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 13, 2011, 10:50:39 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Sorry Love, I'm just eager to do this thing and have to leave for work soon.

I'm chomping at the bit, lol. I got my hoax back on via TS.

(Ps. MisTrinity333, numerology debunks the terminal patient theory.)

I never said terminal patient...from my notes with kittycat10100 pg 3

Quote
"This brings us to who was in the house. Who did they put in the ambulance and take to UCLA. If they were working with a medical forensic doctor DR. A. the colleague of Dr. Murray; then he could get a John Doe who is either critical or recently died and take to the house to the doctor's room. He was not in MJ's bed, and they made the room as hot as possible to try to keep the body warm. There are too many unexplained things that make it less likely that MJ had disappeared and was not taken to the hospital.

The fact that no one has identified or spoken to the doctor who received MJ's body and coded him at UCLA hospital or that he/she did not announce the death at the press conference is unheard of. It is not difficult for a physician to purchase an unidentified person - John Doe/Jane Doe. They are used for training physicians on procedures etc. I think in this case - a medical legal forensic doctor- Dr. M's colleague may have access to these John Doe bodies. They had the right fit. That is why no one from the house- Kai Chase or any of the housekeepers were called for help; which is unusual in a cardiac arrest where you need as many hands as possible to help with compression and passing things.
[/color]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 13, 2011, 11:05:07 AM
Quote from: "bec"

That's really the bottom line in my opinion.

This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.

All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.

And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.

Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.

In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.

1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm) If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.

2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/) also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.

Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.

Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)

But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.

So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???

Brilliant post Bec!  No point faffing around acquiring, maintaining (hot or cold??), transporting and disposing of a corpse, in an attempt to fool the key people who had to be in on it anyway! No point. No body.

PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 11:06:42 AM
What's the chances ( the real, tangible, statistical chances) that a 50-ish year old, slim, average height, light skinned person close enough resembling MJ with no features (facial hair, moles, large nose, wrong hair color) immediately giving away that it isn't MJ, died in LA on the morning of 6/25/09? And after that, how'd they get this body to Carrolwood? You'd have to run the statistics but at first glance, it's a serious long shot. Too many external variables to consider (listed above) and not to mention, it's been debunked in past discussions.

Regardless, does that mean UCLA indeed did successfully regain a heartbeat in this person? Medical miracle!

Also regardless, who was this designed to fool?

We have facts and statistics of probability that debunk these things.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 13, 2011, 11:40:10 AM
Hello everybody!!!  :D
I still don't have my own theory  :oops: this is just soooo hard for me, the more i try to come up with theory the more confused i get.  :shock: Literally my head is spinning right now :lol:
Here are a couple of thoughts and objections i want to share with you guys, maybe it will help somebody with their own theories. :)
TS mentioned this FBI article a lot of times (don't know exact number). The first time i read it i didn't pay much attention to it, it was just another clue saying that FBI is involved, but when TS mentioned it again in this redirect i found a lot of interesting stuff (i'm sorry if somebody has mentioned it before in another threat :oops:)

Quote from: "TS_comments"
Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial!  “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year.  Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” {http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams}.

#1 Our favorite slogan is "The less people in on the hoax, the better for the hoax" :D
 
Quote
Each member of the fraud ring brought her own expertise to the table: Crump and Pearce, with their mortuary experience, knew all there was to know about funerals and death documents. Phlebotomist Faye Shilling knew the ins and outs of filing insurance claims, and notary Barbara Ann Lynn used her stamp to make the fake documents look legitimate.
2 people in mortuary: performed "autopsy", handled all the death related documents.
1 person: handled insurance documents (i don't know if we need him, please show me where i can read about Michael's insurance)
1 person: notary made sure that all documents look legitimate.
I still think that in Michael's hoax there are more people in on it, but remember how TS always stresses that Elvis had ONLY 6 PEOPLE IN ON IT in the beginning.
My point is that if only 4 women could pull their hoax, imagine what Michael and FBI can do?
 
#2 Theory about NO BODY has been used

Quote
How the scam unraveled. Two insurance companies began looking more closely at the claims and hired an investigator to ask questions. The con artists were so unnerved by this that they had the coffin supposedly holding the remains of Jim Davis unearthed. They filled the casket with a mannequin and cow parts to ensure the proper weight and then sent it to a crematory. Then, they filed phony paperwork stating that he had been cremated and had his ashes scattered over the Pacific Ocean.

#3 Of course only FBI could crack this hoax

Quote
The FBI’s Los Angeles office eventually became involved. Upon closer inspection of the life insurance policies, death certificates, funeral bills, and financial information of the ring members, our investigators gathered the evidence needed to charge the four women—whose scheme ultimately met its own demise.

Quote from: "TS_comments"
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.

Ok here i want to object a little bit. As you all know i have no medicine background whatsoever and i can't look at dead people, blood etc. From the things i've been reading today i felt very sick, but i had to do it. So here is what i found.
Everybody thinks that the room was heated to make corpse look as if he just recently died, not a couple of hours ago. Because body temperature drops when somebody dies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algor_mortis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algor_mortis)
Quote
Algor mortis (Latin: algor—cold(ness); mortis—of death) is the reduction in body temperature following death. This is generally a steady decline until matching ambient temperature, although external factors can have a significant influence.
A measured rectal temperature can give some indication of the time of death. Although the heat conduction which leads to body cooling follows an exponential decay curve, it can be approximated as a linear process: 2° Celsius during the first hour and 1° Celsius per hour until the body nears ambient temperature.
The Glaister equation[1][2] estimates the hours elapsed since death as a linear function of the rectal temperature:
(36.9 °C - [rectal temperature in Celsius]) ×1.2
As decomposition occurs the internal body temperature tends to rise again.

My objection is that when temperature is high, it speeds up the proses of rigor mortis, which i think is much more noticeable then body temperature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis)
Quote
Heat sources such as fire can speed up the process of rigor mortis.
http://www.sciencedirect.com (http://www.sciencedirect.com) (sorry the full link is too big)
Quote
Experimental evaluation of rigor mortis V. Effect of various temperatures on the evolution of rigor mortis
T. Krompechera
aInstitute of Forensic Medicine, University of Geneva, passage de la Radio 8, CH-1205 Geneva Switzerland
Received 3 March 1980;  accepted 6 July 1980.  Available online 21 March 2004.
Abstract
Objective measurements were carried out to study the evolution of rigor mortis on rats at various temperatures.
Our experiments showed that:
(1) at 6 °C rigor mortis reaches full development between 48 and 60 hours post mortem, and is resolved at 168 hours post mortem; (2) at 24 °C rigor mortis reaches full development at 5 hours post mortem, and is resolved at 16 hours post mortem; (3) at 37 °C rigor mortis reaches full development at 3 hours post mortem, and is resolved at 6 hours post mortem; (4) the intensity of rigor mortis grows with increase in temperature (difference between values obtained at 24 °C and 37 °C); and (5) at 6 °C a “cold rigidity” was found, in addition to and independent of rigor mortis.

So to heat up the room does not make any sense to me. If here is a doctor or a nurse who can explain it to me, please do so, as i'm very confused with all that. :| Plus i read that Blount said that the patients body temperature was low. So who is lying? And also who said that room was very warm in the first place? (this is a real question, please let me know who said it)

As you can see i don't have any solid theory yet, but i'm working on it very hard  :mrgreen:

L.O.V.E you all!  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 13, 2011, 11:51:44 AM
You can't have an autopsy w/o a body. This person didn't have to die on THE day of the hoax; remember the room was WARM.  And as Souza pointed out; it could have been someone terminal who consented to donate or assisted suicide, and was then moved.  We still have no real good explanation about the oxygen tanks... :?:
Notes from Kitty:

kittycat10100
I just spoke to Ed Winter regarding the MJ autopsy report. Here is a summary:
Was the MJ AR leaked or given with authorization? "It was legally obtained". This was said very deliberately, after a short pause. He went on to explain that once a security hold is lifted, certain documents, including ARs, are public records. I said "So you have less control over this than most of us think?" He said yes. If it were up to him, autopsy reports would remain private. Nothing he or the family could do to stop this. TMZ obtained and posted it legally, it was not given. Now, the thing that struck me after I hung up was he said the security hold was lifted after Murray was charged. But the AR came out the same day. Almost the same time I think.

So once again TMZ is ways ahead of the curve---is someone feeding them info or are they this good? I said "so we should take anything they say with a grain of salt?" He laughed and said, “Yes, probably. “  I asked about the Brittany Murphy leak and subsequent investigation. He said someone outside the Coroner's Office had gotten a hold of some related documentation, not the autopsy itself, while there was still a security hold on it. I asked him if he was aware of a Twitter page in Craig Harvey's name with cryptic, tantalizing comments on it. He laughed and said he didn't know anything about Twitter; he keeps all his thoughts to himself. (??) I pulled up the page Homeby... had sent and read some of it to him, also mentioning that the account was opened June 20. I asked if this is really Harvey or someone fooling around in his name. He said he really didn't know, that because you can't tell who he's talking to it's hard to interpret what he's saying.

Last night I had left a message at the Coroner's Office number for Public Relations.
The web page has some Information Officer named, forget who. At 9:27 a.m. I had a message from Ed Winter answering the question I had left "Is the MJ AR, so easily available on the internet, legitimate?" His message said the TMZ version is, he couldn't vouch for anything else.  Ed Winter is handling these inquiries himself? I think so. Given that both our docs find this AR to be confusing if not outright ridiculous, and the Chief Coroner has just told me it is "legit.", I think this supports my theory of Dept of Justice--Witness Protection---need to know. Only those at the top would know not every cop, coroner, sheriff, etc.
 
The name Soule Shaun, or Shaun Soule, that MJ was supposedly admitted under (& changed to Gershwin) has been nagging at me. Why not something bland and forgettable like Steve Johnson, Mark Smith? Under the pressure and stress of the moment, would Dr. Murray come up with Shaun Soule by himself? So I did what I do, I picked at it, and found----

Shaun, of Irish origin, a form of Sean, means "God is gracious"

There is a Soule Park---golf course, country club etc in Ojai Ca. Ojai is a beautiful rustic resort community inland from Santa Barbara. MJ could easily have heard of it, even been there........

I think he's still screwing with us.

Quote
mmlevyjones

You know it is strange how the media never mentioned any of these disruptions in LA. Why would the fire alarm go off as he comes in?  Where were the other patients? Did this cancer patient state whether she saw MJ or not or just the people coming in with him. I find it strange that EMS or UCLA never talked about what happened during the code. Was he in a systole or v fib, or EMD and what they did? UCLA is the leader in the new technology - to revive people from death. They actually place the patient on bypass while they work on the heart to get it beating again. They have had great success. If MJ coded, the paramedics would have been told to come to the hospital immediately. Don't stay in the field where you can't use the new technology. Plus they don't want to mess up their success data.

I read one article from the site that talk about lockdown of the facility when MJ "died" and the strain on the security.
They secured and had someone at every door, point of exit and entry because it was so uncontrollable outside the hospital. He then goes into a discussion of preparedness drill and how there are times when you do just a planned preparedness drill with lockdown and all these features. Strange, this is what I thought was going on a preparedness drill. I have seen that happen at hospitals and it looks like a real problem, but it is a drill- names are created, charts made and mannequin or people are used.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: becca26 on April 13, 2011, 12:07:18 PM
Thank you TS for the new thread. I was also thinking are the EMT's still working? Or are they retired now? :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 13, 2011, 12:42:07 PM
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
You can't have an autopsy w/o a body. This person didn't have to die on THE day of the hoax; remember the room was WARM.  And as Souza pointed out; it could have been someone terminal who consented to donate or assisted suicide, and was then moved.  We still have no real good explanation about the oxygen tanks... :?:

It's true you can't have an autopsy without a body.  BUT, you could have an autopsy report without a body, they're just pieces of paper.  Death certificates can be forged, so says the FBI themselves so one could surmise that an autopsy report could also be forged, especially with the FBI's magical powers. (that one's for bec  :lol: )

Both the DC and AR have the name "Michael Joseph Jackson".  I wrote this in the March 9 thread:
Quote from: "Andrea"
I’ve been thinking about the FBI’s involvement, the possible clues they’ve given and numerology.

As we all know, the FBI intended to release 333 pages on Michael Jackson on 12/21 but was delayed a day.

Here is the link I found when googling “Michael Jackson 333 pages”:

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/de ... son_122209 (http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/december/jackson_122209)

Here is the image with that article:

(http://www2.fbi.gov/headlines/mj260.jpg)

See how it clearly says “Michael Joe Jackson”.  When you look at the actual 333 pages that were released, the always refer to him as “Michael Joe Jackson” or just “Michael Jackson”.

From the above link, there’s another link at the bottom of that page:

http://www.fbi.gov/foia/electronic-read ... ph-jackson (http://www.fbi.gov/foia/electronic-reading-room/michael-joseph-jackson)
Quote
Michael Joseph Jackson
Michael Joseph Jackson, a celebrity pop star, was born on August 29, 1958. He died unexpectedly on June 25, 2009 at the age of 50.
Between 1993 and 1994 and separately between 2004 and 2005, Mr. Jackson was investigated by California law enforcement agencies for possible child molestation. He was acquitted of all such charges. The FBI provided technical and investigative assistance to these agencies during the cases. The Bureau also investigated threats made against Mr. Jackson and others by an individual who was later imprisoned for these crimes.

So when the FBI is referring to Michael being dead, they call him “Michael Joseph Jackson”.  Very interesting, wouldn’t you say?  A deliberate clue like the DC and a subtle reference to an Elvis parallel with the middle name?  The Elvis/FBI involvement has been discussed in this thread and many know that his full name is Elvis Aron Presley but on the grave stone it says “Elvis Aaron Presley”.
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR9WjB-Y99BuofwJItffKwOmhjcT0udv7VSdmq44ata8I4PoVJxpg)

So real alive Michael is Michael Joe and fake dead Michael is Michael Joseph.  This to me indicates the FBI's involvement in the autopsy report AND death certificate, the clues are on their own website.

Brian Oxman claims that is was because of him the 333 pages from the FBI's MJ files were released.  He said he became aware of the files in August '09 and requested their release through the Freedom of Information Act.  Yet at the same time he says that as an attorney, he knew the FBI was significantly involved in some aspects of Michael's life.   So Oxman makes his request, the 333 pages were released on 12/21 (day after really) and it was also Oxman who said he believed 99.9% that the ambulance photo was fake.  And the autopsy was finalized on 9/9/9.  Weirdness...

I agree with bec and others who say there was no body, like I said in an earlier post.  Too many complications could arise in that scenario and totally unnessecary if the key people who would come into contact with the stretcher are already in on it.  It's all fun and games until you poke an eye out or involve a dead body.  And I realize that this hoax is not just about fun and games, it's very serious.  A dead body is pretty much the only aspect of the hoax that makes me uncomfortable.

As for the oxygen tanks, I think the family put them in there when the moving van was outside the Carolwood home a day or two after June 25th because the police didn't find them until the family had come and gone.  The family planted "evidence" for the hoax to move forward and the inevitable trial of Dr. Conrad Murray.  Which of course has to happen before Michael returns.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhunny on April 13, 2011, 01:39:46 PM
But the oxygen tanks were mentioned as being there by the other cook, not Kai Chase. There's an interview here somewhere with this cook where he says he saw the tanks repeatedly being moved from upstairs to downstairs to be picked up when empty and replaced. I remember thinking at the time that it was almost as if the whole purpose of this was to make sure the tanks would be seen as there actually exists some type of device you could hook the tanks up to in the privacy of your own room to fill them with oxygen( technically this device converts something to oxygen or does something like that , i suck at all things technical its a bloody marvel i manage to join a forum let alone post stuff :lol: ) anyway point is if MJ was in such need of all these oxygen tanks it could have been handled with discretion yet they seemed to make damn sure everyone and his dog got a good look at them so they'd have a story to tell post june 25th.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 13, 2011, 01:50:09 PM
I can only speculate when the oxygen tanks were brought into the house.  What I do know is that when the cops initially showed up to the Carolwood house on June 25th, they didn't find anything suspicious or out of the ordinary and said they were done there, that there would be no further investigation.  Which is totally insane of them considering who "died".   The police only found the oxygen tanks and a mini-pharmacy when they came back a couple of days later, after the family had gone in and left with a moving truck, if my memory serves correctly.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 13, 2011, 02:00:07 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.

1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002) ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.

2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu) ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.

 

1. The body didn't fool anyone, because the EMT's actually said the body looked like it was dead for hours. We haven't heard anything from the hospital staff, so we don't know their opinion on the body. And if the person commited assisted suicide, it can be planned on a certain date, and there would also be time (if necessary) to make the patient look a little more like MJ. But not really that much, since the EMT's had NO CLUE it was him, meaning he didnt look like him.

2. We don't know if there has been a heartbeat. That was reported and also denied. But even IF there was activity, it could be because the resuscitation efforts. Even a dead heart can show activity again after endless CPR and electric shocks. It has to do with the muscles that are triggered. I am no medical expert so maybe I am explaining it wrong, so if someone knows exactly how this works, please correct me.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 13, 2011, 02:18:39 PM
I agree it sounds morbid to use a real dead body but actually the body is just an empty shell - at least this is what I think I believe after being with somebody in the moment of death. I had the feeling that the soul left that body with the last breathe, of course I can't be sure but that was the feeling at that moment. The days after, looking at that still body - that feeling became stronger.

Oh what do we really know.....

Anyway, I don't think it is so immoral or sick to use a dead body, maybe because of my personal experiences.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 13, 2011, 02:40:37 PM
Anyway, if the hoax was planned for years, Michael probably had the home-hospital ride all solved and with the FBI assistance I really don't think it was that difficult to get a fresh body.

But what if - as we have reasons to believe in doubles - the story that surfaced right after death - about a person with a terminal illness who agreed to die for Michael(I know sounds more than morbid) is actually true?

And please don't tell me Michael wouldn't do that. We really don't know what he would do.
After all, MJ himself was the one with a big smile on his face at James Brown funeral, I know I saw a pic with him and others in front of the coffin and they were all smiling. And I don't mean it in a bad way, what I mean is that i believe Michael is in full awareness about what life means and what death means. He's not a child who can't handle the death thought. I think he knows very well that death is just the necessary step to another existence.
After all he was the one playing with the zoombies in Thriller at 25. He was afraid of death? I don't know, but I think he gave it a lot of thinking trying to understand, and when you think alot about it - death becomes a rather familiar notion, not so scary anymore.

This is just speculation of course.

Anyway, there is one theory I don't believe in : no body in the ambulance. I don't think that was the case because the risk was too big for someone to actually see through the window that the stretcher was empty.

But what if there's another possibility: a state close to death induced to Michael himslef with some drugs (is this possible - I don't know) and then he was revived later at UCLA?

No matter how I look at this, the easiest and less risky way is to have a dead body involved.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 13, 2011, 03:07:08 PM
To do all this Michael not acted alone, he has to have the help of some government office, (FBI) i do not know, and of course that there are people involved ( some bodyguards,paramedics, someone in the hospital and in the coroner's office) was advised otherwise, it would be impossible.
If there was no body then to say that the paramedics lie, to declare that they thought that Michael seemed to a frail elderly and did not recognize him, could have been saved that statement.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 13, 2011, 03:51:05 PM
There are drugs that cause even the fake death. Remember the movie Sherlock Holmes? The bandit took a drug like this and Wodson failed to realize he was still alive. I've also seen this drug being present in telenovelas from Brazil. Anybody here watched "Path of the Indies"?  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
But speaking of real life, own Propofol can do this.
If this was used, the paramedics are out of play, but dr. Cooper and the coroner has to be in!
I do not think we will have an answer on that.
TS will still say that no matter what happened at UCLA, but this to me is the key to everything.
I know the alarm shoot for some reason, and that's no lie, as has been confirmed in a program for reporting serious about Michael's death by a Brazilian doctor who works in the pediatric UCLA. She said the alarm went off and everyone was out of the hospital where he was playing songs by Michael at high volumes. She could not tell what had happened in the fact, only after they learned that the alarm was false.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ignisaeternus on April 13, 2011, 04:28:11 PM
First, thank you TS for this new thread.  Lots of great questions and lots of great theories so far. 

 

I have always been leaning against the dead body theory, but Souza made some great points, and the scenario is very plausible.  Still- after thinking about this for a while now and reading all the posts so far- I agree with Bec- and others who go with the “no dead body was used” for many of the reasons listed:

-        It seems the easiest way to have least people involved is to just use a dummy.  If we supposed the 911 call was fake, then that would mean the paramedics involvement also needed to be “fake.”- meaning they knew there was no dead body.  If there was one, and the paramedics came to the scene not knowing what was up, then how does that explain the 911 call?  So- simplest solution: fake 911 call, fake emergency call, paramedics knew what was going on and that there would be NO dead body and no emergency.  This also explain the slow drive and stupid backing out attempts.  Had they thought this was a real emergency (with a body)- they would still have pressed to get back to UCLA ASAP. 
-        This is the strongest point Bec brought up and also is my main point: NO paramedic would be fooled with a dead body.  Rigor would have set in.  Also, let’s say, hey, it was a warm room. The warm room would actually also affect faster decomposition and smells.  I don’t care if Murray was a higher authority- real paramedics would NOT have attempted to revive a smelly corpse.  Further down the line- again- why have a corpse?  NOONE (docs, coroner, etc) would be fooled and work for hours on a dead body.  So, it stands to reason that the docs and coroner were in on it- and if they were- why bother with a dead body at all(on a side note: I think there is another significance to the hot room..but that is another thread)?
-        Another strong point against dead body: Logistics.  Sure, we can say it might not be hard to find a dead body on June 25.  BUT- you’d have to transport it, have legal issues cleared with next of kin, match the dead person to MJ somewhat, etc.  If we say, assisted suicide which would cut down on all this, the issue remains that we now again have more people involved in transport etc.  So, as in science’s use of Yokam’s Razor- why not go with the simplest solution possible which might be the most likely: in this case- no body at all. 
-        Another point: the heart beat report as also addressed by Bec.  The dead body would not have had a heart beat.  And if that was a fake report- again, why bother to have a dead body.  Those same people giving the fake report would have to be in the know- so again: easier to have no dead body.
-        The PR issue about “MJ using a dead body” is certainly of concern as well.  I also think that this sticking point might be what most would remember.  Also- I am considering Michael’s religious and moral views.  I know in JW religion when you are dead that is it- you are “asleep” basically until judgment day.  BUT- I don’t think they would ok it to haul dead bodies around when it is just as easy to use a dummy on the stretcher.  I know, MJ was not a practicing JW- BUT he kept many of their views and he was raised with those views- which left a strong background.  So, this is not one of the stronger points, and is more opinion than fact- but to me it still plays in.
-        I used to think Michael was NOT in the ambulance.  Now, knowing that he was so hands on with everything and having seen that mysterious “third” person, I think he might have been.  The only thing that stomps me is that the simplest way would have been to just go to the airport straight from Carolwood while all the attention was on the ambulance.  If he went to the hospital (and it is true, attention would not have been on him had he been in disguise, or simply not in “Michael Jackson getup: no wig, no makeup…) it is possible the kids said goodbye to him there- which would account for their emotional state.  On the other hand, that again involves more people (helicopter pilots etc) to get him to the airport.  Simpler and cleaner version: to get to the airport as hinted by Jermaine.  Which is what I am going with.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Victory on April 13, 2011, 05:11:34 PM
.... just a thought.
If Michael used too fool the pappz with a dummy in an ambo. He must already know how to pull that trick off, right? He have done that many times before according to Lou F. So maybe that´s just whats happend on June 25? The same people helped him this day to, they know how to act and they know how to fool the pappz since they done it before. Does anyone know, pictures etc how he pulled it off before? Who helped him then and what ambo did he used?
Maybe I´m way out of line, or maybe it´s just this simple....

L.O.V.E
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: taty_2crazy on April 13, 2011, 05:12:17 PM
Michael had just key ppl involved in this, the less the better.FBI and EMT´s are part of this list.As to the body i think it was used a dummy cause it´s easier to deal with and to transport i don´t imagine having a smelly body inside the house and also they needed a corpse (as real as possible )if somebody would look through the amgulance windows.I think it would be against his believes and moral views using somebody´s body.The autopsy report is fake and imo it was already written at the beginning at the hoax.Michael is a so hand on person with everything he does.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 13, 2011, 05:48:15 PM
* Yes autopsy paperwork can be fake vie FBI involvement.

* 911 call is in question because there's four versions and the call wasn't made from Carlwood correct?

* EMT's know the difference between a dummy and a dead body.  :lol:  They say it looked like he had been dead for hours. You can keep a body cool to slow down rig. without "freezing" it which would be, pardon the pun; a dead give a way. Then place in a warm room to bring temp up to realistic expectations... I also heard eyes were open.

* You don't intubate or do CPR on a LIVE person playing dead. Anesthesia is called frequently to the ER or on the floors for intubation because it takes a host of sedatives and muscle relaxants to anesthetize the patient prior to putting the tube down the throat. Otherwise it is a major fight with a lot of people holding all parts of the body. No way was that going to happen to MJ or anyone else for acting purposes. There is no way anyone in the awake state would be intubated and have CPR done.  :shock:

* MJ was admitted to UCLA under the name Soule Shaun. But in one of kittycat's conversations with Assist. Chief Coroner Ed Winter, he told her "Gershwin is hospital code for hi-profile cases". You all remember Gershwin, the blood work is in his name and one of the toe tags is in his name, the other being MJ. We know toe tags are not placed on live patients, even if they are comatose.  ;) He left blood work and there was a urine sample in the room.

* Body logistics not that difficult for FBI.  Let's not assume Michael had anything to do with this...it may not have been his choice, but was done because it had to be.   :oops: This may have something to do with a sting op.  In one of my last conversations with Kitty she told me doctors were going down in CA, AZ & Florida.  These are docs MJ had contact with 10-20 yrs ago.  Coincidence?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 13, 2011, 07:09:17 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

That's really the bottom line in my opinion.

This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.

All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.

And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.

Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.

In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.

1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm) If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.

2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/) also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.

Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.

Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)

But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.

So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???
Response to your #2 point bec.
Quote
TS wrote
5-8. Zone for MJ Info

Another TMZ article, just a few days before, was titled: “Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA” http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/). Here again, if you accept the whole story, then forget the hoax; because the whole story is discussing when MJ died (at home, or UCLA)—it’s not discussing if MJ died.

Or you can connect the dots, and recognize that “Michael was alive” is the main clue—and much of the rest is unnamed or unverified “sources”. Anything that is not readily verifiable, and especially anything that is unnamed “sources”, should go straight in the garbage.

This is part of what Michael is trying to teach us. We are not to blindly trust tabloid media—or even mainstream media. Yet, just like TMZ, at times there is reliable and valuable information in the media.

For example, video interviews; it is very easy to fabricate false information in writing, but it is much harder to fabricate a video interview with someone. And even if someone did create a fake video interview (using a double, or a computer-generated image, etc): the real person would probably hear about it, and deny that it was really him.

And at this point, I should mention that as far as possible: TIAI Revealed, and the Updates, have used the above mentioned and similar types of reliable sources for information. So don’t accept something just because TIAI says it; but on the other hand, don’t fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources and documentation. Rejecting reliable information isn’t much if any better (maybe worse) than accepting unreliable information. Some people believe everything (gullible), others believe nothing (stubborn); if we want the truth, we must find a balance between those extremes.
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=9891 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=9891)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 13, 2011, 07:15:18 PM
This explanation below from TS is in regards to theories about how many people would need to be involved in the know of the hoax. Theories that have way to many people involved is unrealistic IMO. 8-)
viewtopic.php?f=125&t=7194 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=7194)
Quote
TS wrote:
Besides, the entire state of California is not in on the hoax. MJ has been planning this hoax for many years; and he had the time and influence to get a few key people in the right positions to pull it off—and yes, even government agencies still have some good people in them. Look at history: many times people in high positions have stood up against the corruption in their own system (government, or church, etc).

But MJ did not involve large quantities of people. In fact, the “three-way theory” is basically correct http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 2&start=0; (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5382&start=0;) this theory states that the fewer people “in on it”, the better (although more than three are actually involved, and the “three-way theory” does allow for more than three).

Also, as far as possible, legal loopholes were used. Nevertheless, with a hoax of this magnitude and importance: whether the line was ever crossed, between being inside or outside of legal loopholes, is a question that probably doesn’t even need to be answered.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4-37. Hints on the “How’s” of the Hoax

In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 0&sr=posts (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts). That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?

I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.

For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.

I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?

Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.

This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.

Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-t ... a-mystery/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/)? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedic ... -arrived/; (http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/;) http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-j ... c-arrest/; (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/;) http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-j ... -911-call/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4-38. Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”

Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive.

All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls, thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).

The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).

Some have said that Forest Lawn (FL) would need to be in on the hoax; and maybe they are, but maybe not. If there was an actual dead body used during at least some of the process: then a dead body could’ve been at FL, even though it was not MJ. And sooner or later, the family could say: “We’ve decided to bury MJ somewhere else; but for privacy and security reasons, we want the public to think that he is buried here.”

They might even have FL sign confidentiality agreements, promising not to let anyone know that MJ was not buried at FL. Of course FL would still get paid, because the family did purchase space there http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/us/04jackson.html; (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/us/04jackson.html;) and since FL got their money, they would not care where MJ was actually buried, and that would be the end of it—FL might never imagine that MJ is still alive.
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

That's really the bottom line in my opinion.

This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.

All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.

And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.

Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.
A real body creates Realism in the way the events happen. Not everything can be seen by the public as acting. Improv is the name of the game. This hoax goes way deeper than an image repair.  8-)

Using 1 or maybe 2 different corpses at different times is a small thing in the scheme of how big this hoax is when it comes to exposing harmful things, getting those harmful things taken off the market and starting a process to get Propofol changed to a controlled drug. The way things are now Propofol is an uncontrolled drug and can be obtained very easily by a Dr. who has a liscense and also by a person with a script. The pharmacy in Nevada was distributing Propofol to Murray as if it was no big deal. That is why that pharmacy is now shut down.  8-)

The events that have happened since MJ died because of Propofol have been incredible. MJ used himself as bait for a sting operation that far out weighs a cadaver being used in the process. He also used Propofol as the drug of choice so that it would cause great attention to that drug. The Propofol from a manufacture making it was shown to have tainted lot numbers. The manufactures have stopped making it here in the USA. There is a timeline link below that shows how far back some issues started and caused faulty infusion pumps to be recalled.  8-)

Quote from my 2nd post in this thread.

Quote
I believe that one part of the sting operation deals with the drug problems in Hollywood and the over prescribing of meds by the doctors. I also believe it has to do with FDA issues and the manufactors of Propofol. Big pharmaceuticals manufactors do not care what goes into the drugs or the side effects as long as they make a profit. Tainted medicines are resold all the time in order to dump them and make a profit.
Here is part of it’s ALL for L.O.V.E.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-14/heal ... =PM:HEALTH (http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-14/health/jackson.drug.recall_1_generic-version-propofol-lot-number?_s=PM:HEALTH)
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-15/heal ... =PM:HEALTH (http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-15/health/propofol.dea.jackson_1_diprivan-propofol-drug?_s=PM:HEALTH)
http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/11/michael-j ... las-vegas/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/11/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-propofol-search-las-vegas/)
http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/13/propofol- ... -pharmacy/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/13/propofol-manufacturer-in-michael-jackson-hospira-pharmacy/)
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/Dru ... 209227.htm (http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/DrugShortages/ucm209227.htm)
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10769777 (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10769777)
http://www.anesthesiazone.com/featured- ... x?id=31878 (http://www.anesthesiazone.com/featured-news-article.aspx?id=31878)
http://www.erowid.org/pharms/propofol/p ... _law.shtml (http://www.erowid.org/pharms/propofol/propofol_law.shtml)
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_r ... fr0723.htm (http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/rules/2009/fr0723.htm)
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/MichaelJa ... id=8302959 (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/MichaelJackson/story?id=8302959)
Quote
TS_comments wrote:
However, if key people in the FBI are cooperating with LAFD and MJ: then when the truth comes out, all they have to do is show success in catching some public corruption through this process--and all is well that ends well. After all, once again, that is their "top priority among criminal investigations" http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption).
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 13, 2011, 08:18:59 PM
I am just going to throw a few pictures out there for you guys to think about..

Don't forget Craig Harvey is an actor as well..... Craig Harvey was in the Coroners Van and collected the body for transportation.....

Different angles of the same pictures paint a different story....... ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 13, 2011, 08:29:35 PM
And this picture of a close up of the arrival at UCLA, from a defferent angle...

Also a red car, similar to "that day" is parked outside carolwood dve, when doing a google search.

Different angles can change the theories.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 13, 2011, 08:48:24 PM
I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: dom425 on April 13, 2011, 09:05:47 PM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
Wow, now that's food for thought.

I think that's an excellent defense to use.........  But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.

I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and  take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.

Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake  the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense.

 Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. :oops:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 13, 2011, 09:19:12 PM
Quote from: "dom425"
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
Wow, now that's food for thought.

I think that's an excellent defense to use.........  But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.

I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and  take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.

Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake  the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense.

 Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. :oops:

Michael likes to be different and go beyond what everybody else has done. Elvis' doctor went to trial and was found not guilty...if MJ wanted to make his trial even better than that he could make that Murray's defense just that...who knows?

About the media, some might look at the clues like you said and realize MJ is alive...but the fans might not, they already think Murray is already rubbing salt in the wound by 'following' Janet, walking down the street like nothing happened etc.

Or maybe Murray's defense will be that MJ killed himself, if this is supposed to be a contrast to MJ's trial in 2005.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ignisaeternus on April 13, 2011, 09:26:27 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.

1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002) ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.

2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu) ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.

 

1. The body didn't fool anyone, because the EMT's actually said the body looked like it was dead for hours. We haven't heard anything from the hospital staff, so we don't know their opinion on the body. And if the person commited assisted suicide, it can be planned on a certain date, and there would also be time (if necessary) to make the patient look a little more like MJ. But not really that much, since the EMT's had NO CLUE it was him, meaning he didnt look like him.

2. We don't know if there has been a heartbeat. That was reported and also denied. But even IF there was activity, it could be because the resuscitation efforts. Even a dead heart can show activity again after endless CPR and electric shocks. It has to do with the muscles that are triggered. I am no medical expert so maybe I am explaining it wrong, so if someone knows exactly how this works, please correct me.

As far as point 1)- yes, but there is a difference between having been dead for one hour or so, or the hours it would require to get a corpse into the Carolwood.  Also, if we suppose there was a real dead body, do you also suppose there was a real autopsy?  So, the things that would have to fall into place: Find someone who is dead on June 25, but not for too long as being frozen would have been a give-away.  Also, again, if there had been decomposition smell, the EMTs would have REALLY smelled a rat (no pun intended)- no one has mentioned decomposition smell in the depositions.  In the hot room with a body dead for hours- there would have been that element.  
Then we have the logistics of having this person die at a certain time, on that day, and he would have been similar enough to pass for MJ in autopsy findings as to not make it too obvious.  Also, coroner (if not in on events and there was a real autopsy) would have known real cause of death as room temperature is included in the equation.  Add to that the paperwork that would have to be in place to make all this legal- as well as logistics such as transporting the body etc.
It just requires too much work and too many people to be involved.  Why not have the FBI brief the paramedics instead on their “role”- and have a dummy in the ambulance (to make it look like something was on the stretcher)?  It’s so much simpler.  In science we always go with the simplest explanation and ONLY if that doesn’t work go on.
Point 2- You can have short term muscle activity, but NO medical personnel mistakes that for actual heart beat as the effect is known.  Also, this only goes for a very short period, a beat or two- it would not count as any sustainable heartbeat.  Furthermore- paramedics brief medical staff.  If they brief them that they suspect the patient has been dead for hours, it is highly doubtful that medical staff would have continued CPR for hours (unless there was a heartbeat; which would have been impossible if we have an actual dead body).  To do that, would risk severe brain damage at this point in time.  This part has always been a weak point, btw- if we say dead body or no dead body and it was just part of the story.  The amount of time that passed makes HOURS of working on the patient without a heartbeat highly unlikely and even medically unethical.
So, it much more likely, that the “heart beat” story was just part of the overall “story of those involved.  
I still stand by “no dead body” and paramedics (2- 3rd is either FBI or MJ in my opinion) in on it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: dom425 on April 13, 2011, 09:30:32 PM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
Quote from: "dom425"
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
Wow, now that's food for thought.

I think that's an excellent defense to use.........  But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.

I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and  take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.

Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake  the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense.

 Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. :oops:

Michael likes to be different and go beyond what everybody else has done. Elvis' doctor went to trial and was found not guilty...if MJ wanted to make his trial even better than that he could make that Murray's defense just that...who knows?

About the media, some might look at the clues like you said and realize MJ is alive...but the fans might not, they already think Murray is already rubbing salt in the wound by 'following' Janet, walking down the street like nothing happened etc.

Or maybe Murray's defense will be that MJ killed himself, if this is supposed to be a contrast to MJ's trial in 2005.
You always seem to find or remind us (or at least me) of some of the key elaments of the hoax. You are a very wise person. Thank you.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:01:36 PM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

That's really the bottom line in my opinion.

This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.

All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.

And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.

Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.

In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.

1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/002 ... _death.htm (http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm) If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.

2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/) also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.

Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.

Either Docs at UCLA were:
1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)
2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)
3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary)

But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim.

So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???
Response to your #2 point bec.
Quote
TS wrote
5-8. Zone for MJ Info

Another TMZ article, just a few days before, was titled: “Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA” http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/). Here again, if you accept the whole story, then forget the hoax; because the whole story is discussing when MJ died (at home, or UCLA)—it’s not discussing if MJ died.

Or you can connect the dots, and recognize that “Michael was alive” is the main clue—and much of the rest is unnamed or unverified “sources”. Anything that is not readily verifiable, and especially anything that is unnamed “sources”, should go straight in the garbage.

This is part of what Michael is trying to teach us. We are not to blindly trust tabloid media—or even mainstream media. Yet, just like TMZ, at times there is reliable and valuable information in the media.

For example, video interviews; it is very easy to fabricate false information in writing, but it is much harder to fabricate a video interview with someone. And even if someone did create a fake video interview (using a double, or a computer-generated image, etc): the real person would probably hear about it, and deny that it was really him.

And at this point, I should mention that as far as possible: TIAI Revealed, and the Updates, have used the above mentioned and similar types of reliable sources for information. So don’t accept something just because TIAI says it; but on the other hand, don’t fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources and documentation. Rejecting reliable information isn’t much if any better (maybe worse) than accepting unreliable information. Some people believe everything (gullible), others believe nothing (stubborn); if we want the truth, we must find a balance between those extremes.
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=9891 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=9891)

Oh for god sake don't you think I know that as well as you do?

How about the reports of the warm room? What's that, gospel? How about the paramedics' statements? They are the straight dope? How about when LaToya says "Michael was murdered". Is that accurate?

With all due respect Im_convinced, save your lecture for someone who deserves it. Don't patronize me.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 10:03:54 PM
Quote from: "curls"
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?

The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax. This would put everything in danger. Using a dead body also gives more reality to the incident. I do believe that someone who died close to 12.21 was used because we know the EMTs couldn't recognize him and said that he was a bald head, old man. If they were going to find someone who died long ago, not on that day, I believe that they would have chosen someone who looked more like Michael, at least someone with hair. They picked someone who died in the morning of 25th no matter what he looked like. This is just my opinion of course and this makes sense to me.

Still what confuses me is, the pictures of Michael or someone who looks like Michael getting into the hospital sitting on the stretcher. If a dead body was used and if the EMTs were not in on the hoax, then who was that we saw the pictures of getting into hospital sitting on the stretcher? Or were those pictures taken another day? If we didn't have a heated room and EMTs' words about an old man, I would definitely go with the "no dead body was used" theory. But those make me think that a dead body was used.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:06:39 PM
Btw, Im_, you also conveniently chose to quote the one post (I have been repeating myself on this thread admittedly) where I continued point 2 to include that if the reports are false that indicates that the Dr. is lying and if he/she is lying then he/she is in on it anyway so WHO IS THE DEAD BODY DESIGNED TO FOOL.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 10:10:04 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "curls"
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?

The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax.


(The coroner is in on it)

For the rest, why?

The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 10:30:08 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "curls"
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?

The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax.


(The coroner is in on it)

For the rest, why?

The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.

IMO the ones who did the autopsy probably do not know about the hoax and a dead body would be useful again. The doctors at UCLA saw someone arrived dead with a different name. I see that a dead body would minimize the number of people who could be in on the hoax.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 13, 2011, 10:32:38 PM
At least we know a dead body wasn't used to convince the public.  Not that a "frail old man" would do the trick but a lot of people would tell themselves it's him.

Elvis provided a wax dummy for his "funeral", which like MJ's ambulance dummy, looks years younger.

I think Michael upped Elvis in that regards by just having the ambulance photo dummy that looks alive and not dead (bulging forehead vein).  A dummy that could only be viewed in the infamous "ambulance photo" as compared to Elvis' air-conditioned dummy in the casket who was actually seen by funeral-goers.  Michael creates more mystery this way.  Nobody has seen a body that supposedly is Michael's.  The dummy itself hints at him being alive.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 11:05:17 PM
Ok I'll try to debunk the no body theory.

No body means the paramedics HAVE to be in on it. They would never be fooled by a corpse or a dummy and the whole thing could have been blown right there if they called for back up in dealing with pushy Murray insisting they take a rotting corpse to UCLA. Can't risk it, too much planning has gone into this hoax to ruin it this way.

If the paramedics are in on it, the 911 call must be fake. This would mean that the call screen was manipulated somehow. This has never been discussed before but that information came from somewhere to be photographed at some point. It's an interesting side point I won't go into now, but perhaps good for a different discussion. I don't think it's ever been addressed. But we know the operator disconnected prior to emergency vehicle arrival and that is not normal. The operator also led the caller at one point in naming the person's symptoms ("ok he's not breathing, and he's not conscious either". [statement] the caller never said the person was not conscious at this point. Perhaps the gentleman who needs help was choking? Operator was quite cavalier in stating this symptom instead of questioning. Weird at minimum.)

If there is no body does the fire chief setting up cones outside have to know? No I suppose not. The "body" was loaded inside the gates and fire chief was outside. I have never heard it said that he went in, and he was videotaped outside with gates closed so I have to assume he did not go in and remained with the firetruck on the street.

If there was no body the bodyguards must also know. But that's sort of a given. Body Guards. *snicker*

No body means a dummy, nothing, or MJ himself went to UCLA.

Once in the ambulance, if anyone took a peak through the windows, a dummy would suffice, or even MJ himself. Really MJ himself is perfect, since the EMTs are in on it, because no one glancing would be any the wiser. MJ rushed to hospital, if anyone sees anything they would see... MJ being rushed to hospital. But then we can't entubulate live MJ, that's very uncomfortable and possibly dangerous with a conscious person. So perhaps the dummy IS the best solution. They can cut the tracheal tube off the mouthpiece from the inside and strap it to dummy's face. That's prob how they set up the pic anyway, this accounts for why the mouthpiece isn't sitting quite right.

So if MJ (or a dummy) is on the cot going into UCLA, and not a real body, who needs to be in on it?

One person at UCLA, high up in a position of authority, would need to be in on it so as to direct all other staff away from the scene, provide privacy and cover, so that no one not in the know (everyone) sees a thing. An esteemed Doctor, I believe, would satisfy the position, but I am not in the medical field so someone might know better then me on this. Perhaps there is a floor supervisor who would be considered highest rank, I don't know. But then, if UCLA hears that MJ is coming, of course he would be given a private wing, and this would come from highest authority, so really all we need is one person to escort them to the location, and something on that stretcher in case anyone happens to see it being wheeled by.

Once the MJ entourage is behind closed doors within UCLA, anything can be done. MJ can quick change (if this aspect is correct), a dummy could be wrapped up in a sheet as "the body", or wrapped in a carpet and sent out with someone dressed as a janitor. The possibilities are endless here. No staff need be present in this private location within UCLA, "the patient is DOA and the family is attending", and no assistance is needed on an emergency basis, no team needs jump in. There is about an hour of time that needs to be accounted for here. It is *possible* that no one knows anything because no one ever actually saw anything and Dr. Cooper is the only one aware, but I don't have much to back this up. Here's my hole in the theory... simply due to lack of information. We know the family was there because their arrivals are documented. Maybe the family provided the cover for this hour of time. All would stay away because no one wants to interfere with young children at the bedside of their newly "dead" dad.

If we have no body, what was wrapped in a sheet and strapped to a cot and sent via helicopter? If a dummy was wrapped in sheet and sent out on a stretcher do any of those helicopter guys need to know? I don't think so, I can't imagine any of them are the type to sneak peaks at corpses they transport. So long as the weight and heft of it matched, they would be none the wiser to what they were carrying. If it was live MJ, it's a little tougher, because live bodies move much different then dead ones and I would imagine even someone handling it via stretcher might be able to tell? A dummy, on the other hand, would have similar properties to a dead body when hefted. If this is the case and a dummy was sent in the helicopter, then van video was at least set up and filmed at another time, and possibly another location.

Only problem with the dummy/dead body angle at this juncture, the way the body "moved" in the helicopter... dead bodies don't bend like that and I can't imagine dummy's do either. That looks very much so like a live body bend, regardless of who or what provided the forces to move it.

Nearing the end of the scenario of 6/25, no body does also mean that the coroner has to be in on it. If we concede or accept that the DC is fake, we must logically concede and accept that the coroner is in on it. I have researched the DC to death and I accept and concede that it is fake.

I am operating on the knowledge that the coroner's office stated in late June 2009 that MJ's body was not being kept there (remember the musical body storage locations reports of summer 2009, remember it was rumored that MJ's body was going to Neverland for a memorial there on the 28th. Then it  was in Barry Gordy's crypt, then it was at Forest Lawn, then Forest Lawn said it wasn't there... My point is not that maybe the body was here there or everywhere, my point is that the coroner's office started this speculation by stating MJ's body was NOT there. I'll never in a million years find the statement in print all this time, so I can't prove it, but perhaps there's some long time hoaxers that also remember this).

The above being said, no one at the coroner's office needs to know anything at all, since the report released was that MJ's body was not there, so they didn't need a real body to fool anyone at that location either.

Feel free, anyone, to poke holes in it and we can go from there. At no point in The Scenario, do I see a requirement for a real body, which begs the question, if a real body is not necessary, what would the benefit be to using one at all?

Ps. Have we ever discussed why MJ HAD to go to UCLA that day and it was NOT ok that he go directly to the coroner (since coroner is in on it anyway)??
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mdc on April 13, 2011, 11:06:17 PM
Is there a remote possibility that the body was of someone who was being kept alive on life support until the appropriate day and time and the machine was simply turned off with consent? Then the time delay in calling 911 could have been to remove the life support machines? Would the paramedics have realized this? I think it's likely a terminal patient was living at Carolwood and had agreed to do this. They may even have legally changed their name to Michael Joseph Jackson and obtained a driver's license with the name change on it before falling too ill to do so. All this could have been done in exchange for payment of all medical and funeral expenses of the patient. That's one scenario.

But if they used the assisted suicide scenario... does anybody know if they would have had to land the plane in the state that permits assisted suicide or could it have been done on the plane while still in the air? Also, anybody know what the effects would be of the high altitude and compressed air in an airplane on a corpse? That's something everyone should know right? lol
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 13, 2011, 11:10:36 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "curls"
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?

The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax.


(The coroner is in on it)

For the rest, why?

The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.

IMO the ones who did the autopsy probably do not know about the hoax and a dead body would be useful again. The doctors at UCLA saw someone arrived dead with a different name. I see that a dead body would minimize the number of people who could be in on the hoax.

What leads you to believe that the autopsy is real? I don't believe it is real. I believe it was fabricated. The information on the multiple pages does not all match each other, a simple example, the listed height of the subject.

No doctors other then Dr. Cooper have come forward to say they saw someone dead bearing the name Michael Jackson. No staff at UCLA either. No one at the coroner's office has come forward either. Not one person.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 13, 2011, 11:22:43 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "curls"
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?

The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax.


(The coroner is in on it)

For the rest, why?

The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.

IMO the ones who did the autopsy probably do not know about the hoax and a dead body would be useful again. The doctors at UCLA saw someone arrived dead with a different name. I see that a dead body would minimize the number of people who could be in on the hoax.

What leads you to believe that the autopsy is real? I don't believe it is real. I believe it was fabricated. The information on the multiple pages does not all match each other, a simple example, the listed height of the subject.

No doctors other then Dr. Cooper have come forward to say they saw someone dead bearing the name Michael Jackson. No staff at UCLA either. No one at the coroner's office has come forward either. Not one person.

Bec, I didn't write anything regarding the autopsy report. It can be real which was prepared with an autopsy on a real dead person or it can be a fake. An autopsy might have done by doctors on a real dead body and a report might have prepared about it and then maybe the coroner changed some parts of it OR created an autopsy report by himself as he is in on the hoax. What I'm saying is once again, a dead body would be very useful to minimize the number of people who are in on the hoax.

I'll be reading your debunking the no body theory and comment it laters as soon as I wake up. Need to get some sleep now. :D xox
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 14, 2011, 12:01:50 AM
http://twitter.com/chiefcoronerla/status/4672786058 (http://twitter.com/chiefcoronerla/status/4672786058)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 14, 2011, 12:26:42 AM
Quote from: "bec"
What leads you to believe that the autopsy is real? I don't believe it is real. I believe it was fabricated. The information on the multiple pages does not all match each other, a simple example, the listed height of the subject.

No doctors other then Dr. Cooper have come forward to say they saw someone dead bearing the name Michael Jackson. No staff at UCLA either. No one at the coroner's office has come forward either. Not one person.

I also don't believe that the autopsy was real, these are just a peaces of paper, no real body required to right it down, does it? Just like in the FBI article, 4 women got ALL needed documents related to death without body at all.  ;)  I think that we are making it a little too complicated here sometimes, just like some people already pointed out that we should be looking for easiest answers. Why do we think that somebody from Hospital should be coming forward and telling us what happened on 6/25? They have no right to discuss these kind of things in public (plus if they saw nothing/nobody they have nothing to discuss). I think that if they DID tell us stories of what was going on in the UCLA that day, we would judge them  even harder, because Michael always wanted his privacy!

On the other side here is another objection. I read in the preliminary hearing transcripts that not only Dr. Cooper was testified but also Dr. Nuygen (hope the spelling is correct) She said that she was called to the room (where "MJ" was) at 1:35, she also stated that there were 5-6 people in the room, and she mentioned another doctor Dr. Cruz who operated balloon pump. So here we have at least 3 names + CM in that room.

Quote from: "bec"
Feel free, anyone, to poke holes in it and we can go from there. At no point in The Scenario, do I see a requirement for a real body, which begs the question, if a real body is not necessary, what would the benefit be to using one at all?

Absolutely agreed bec. Till now i have not seen anything that would tell me that body HAD to be there. Everyone is lying anyway, why add a dead body to it? Also about the patient who could have done a suicide, because he had very little time to live anyhow. I don't think that Michael would ask someone to do it :? remember "We've already had enough" lyrics "Only God could decide who would live and who would die". And yes Michael had to be the one who asked someone to do it, i really doubt that some guy from a different state decided to die, but before that call MJ and ask him if he needed his body? The way i said it sounds very bad, but that's how the "real dead body" theories sound to me. Plus my objections to the real dead body use. High temperature is bad for corpse: #1 speeds up the process of rigor mortis (very noticeable for EMT's, don't you think?) #2 the corpse smell will occur much sooner (thank you people who mentioned it before) The smell is really horrible (unfortunately witnessed it a couple of times  :cry:), there is nothing similar to it, not AC, nor open windows will help to vanish it. Of course some may say that the smell does not occur right after death, sure. But the dead body should have been at least from the morning of 6/25 so it gives us a 2-6 hours to get to the house in the warm room, trust me the smell will be pretty noticeable by that time, especially EMT's would feel it for sure.

TS's question was, the trip from house to the UCLA! Not what happened in UCLA and other places that day. So maybe it will be much easier for us to concentrate on that trip only?  :D.

I say they had a dummy in Ambulance, in case someone would look through the windows... no body i think is too risky for that particular situation. This is just a thought i still did not collect all needed facts for this theory or any other theory  :lol:

Believers you are doing such a great job! I love reading your posts, so much information, imagination, logic etc. etc. etc in it. LOVE it.

P.S Bec i love your argument mood in these days :D

L.O.V.E you all!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 14, 2011, 12:45:10 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Btw, Im_, you also conveniently chose to quote the one post (I have been repeating myself on this thread admittedly) where I continued point 2 to include that if the reports are false that indicates that the Dr. is lying and if he/she is lying then he/she is in on it anyway so WHO IS THE DEAD BODY DESIGNED TO FOOL.
I guess you missed this comment viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=150#p322747 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=150#p322747) when I talked about Realism. That is to say also that a real body/cadaver wasn't necessarily to fool anyone but to make the events more realistic. One other thing bec if you need to be hostile towards me with your comments, I am not amused and this will be my last comment to you.

I did not quote your post about the article because I was patronizing you. I did it to show you that the article you were using in your theory or arguement had flaws in it. The source of the info came from a tabloid gossip column although it did provide one big clue: Michael was alive.

The difference in how I present my arguments and the way you do is: I always provide more than one document to back up what I say and I don't comment based on my opinion only, unlike you.

Quote
bec wrote:
Oh for god sake don't you think I know that as well as you do?

How about the reports of the warm room? What's that, gospel? How about the paramedics' statements? They are the straight dope? How about when LaToya says "Michael was murdered". Is that accurate?

With all due respect Im_convinced, save your lecture for someone who deserves it. Don't patronize me.
So to answer your questions which I was about to post this anyways. See below.
Quote
Souza wrote:
ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present)
@ Souza: I wrote about the paramedics in my first post.
Quote
Official General Prelim Discussion thread
viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015)
Then you have the witness list (see thread link above) of who testified at the pre-lim in regards to Dr. Cooper and the paramedics that showed up that day and transported the body to the hospital. Now after the jury questionnaire has been released, (see link below) it shows the full potential witness list. All 3 of the paramedics are confirmed. These are the ones who showed up that day. Richard Senneff FF/PM,  Martin Blount FF/PM and Jeffrey Mills Fire Captain. viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674)
I forgot to add the link I talked about in my last post. See below.
Quote
There is a timeline link below that shows how far back some issues started and caused faulty infusion pumps to be recalled.

http://www.dipity.com/timeline/Propofol-Recall/ (http://www.dipity.com/timeline/Propofol-Recall/)

Here are some reports (below) that came out after the pre-lim started. Below I have quoted some things from the articles that explain how many ER docs were there, who told the paramedics to call time of death (Dr. Cooper), the reason the paramedics kept working on MJ, how long approximately they continued to work on MJ after he arrived at UCLA and the reason they continued to work on MJ after he arrived as said by Dr. Thao Nguyen. He said Murray appeared "devastated" and "asked me not to give up easily and try my best to save the patient."

I am going to say that the reason paramedics didn’t recognize MJ is because the body/cadaver wasn’t MJ and their description they gave is accurate based on what they saw.

Hypothetically lets assume the paramedics were fans of MJ’s and they were aware of MJ’s features it would seem probable they would be suspicious when they arrived. The Dr.’s at UCLA hypothetically are fans and know what MJ looks like would also be suspicious of the body/cadaver they were working on. I am going to say that just because a majority of us and other fans around the world know what MJ looks like and we know the FAKE Ambulance pic is definitely recognizable as a younger version of MJ DOES NOT mean that the Dr.‘s at UCLA and the paramedics know. This is why I believe they are real and NOT in on the hoax. They did their jobs like they would any other day except once they were told who the patient was it did influence them a little but not enough to recognize the body/cadaver wasn’t MJ. They also had been influenced by Dr. Murray pleading with them.

I have read many comments regarding that aspect of MJ being the most recognizable face and I think that is a personal assumption to think everyone knows. I have also read many comments saying that medical personnel wouldn’t be fooled by a dummy so that alone should exclude the possibility of a dummy being used. It would leave the possibility of using a real corpse more likely. I have read many comments saying the dummy would be the best because that would mean less people in on the hoax but it actually means more people in on the hoax because like many have said the paramedics would be in and the Dr.’s at UCLA would be in and so on. That theory doesn’t flow with the less the better.

I have also read that many think medical personnel would not be fooled by a dead corpse because of decomp issues but I say many amazing things can be done to prep the body to appear newly deceased. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver)  Decomp does not happen as quickly as people assume it does. There would be no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition)

Once the body/cadaver was taken to the ER many drugs were administered and also at the scene. By the time the coroner’s got the body/cadaver whatever reasoning could be said about decomp or temp or anything else goes out the door because the body/cadaver has now been tampered with and the results will be different than if the coroner’s got the body with out intervention drugs, etc. One more point about the amazing things that can be done, Craig Harvey is a technical advisor on movies and T.V. shows that need authentic looking scenes. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2004576/ (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2004576/)


Dr. Richelle Cooper was sure he was dead before he arrived at UCLA.
http://www.thegrio.com/entertainment/ja ... rrival.php (http://www.thegrio.com/entertainment/jackson-dead-before-hospital-arrival.php)
Quote
ANTHONY McCARTNEY,AP Entertainment Writer

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Before paramedics wheeled Michael Jackson into the emergency room, Dr. Richelle Cooper was sure he was dead.

More than an hour of resuscitation efforts at the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center didn't change her opinion -- the King of Pop had died in the bedroom of his rented mansion.

Based on what Jackson's personal physician told her, though, she didn't quite know why.
Murray told her he had seen Jackson stop breathing and immediately started CPR, but prosecutors say that's not what happened. Instead, over three days and a dozen witnesses at a preliminary hearing, they have put forth a timeline in which Jackson died in the bedroom of his rented mansion and Murray delayed calling 911 to conceal his actions.

Cooper testified she authorized paramedics to pronounce Jackson dead at 12:57 p.m., but they declined at Murray's request and because of the singer's celebrity. After an ambulance ride trailed by paparazzi and more than an hour of efforts in the ER, Cooper officially pronounced Jackson dead at 2:26 p.m. on June 25, 2009.

She said that Murray never told her he had given Jackson the anesthetic propofol, which Cooper said she typically uses in the ER for patients with head trauma or serious injuries.

The Houston-based cardiologist charged in Jackson's death also didn't mention several other sedatives he administered, which Cooper said could have amplified the propofol's effects and caused Jackson to stop breathing before his heart stopped beating.

With Cooper and another UCLA doctor, prosecutors have elicited testimony from five witnesses who said Murray either never mentioned the all the drugs he had given Jackson, or tried to conceal them.

Paramedic Martin Blount, who also testified Thursday, said he saw Murray scoop up three vials of the painkiller lidocaine from the floor of Jackson's bedroom during resuscitation efforts. Blount said he was surprised to see the medications because Murray had told him that he hadn't given the singer any drugs.

Murray's attorney, Joseph Low IV, did not even question Blount's description of the lidocaine, although another defense attorney pointedly questioned the UCLA doctors about whether candid disclosures from the doctor would have saved Jackson.

Cooper said while it wouldn't have changed her efforts to revive Jackson, knowing that Murray had given the singer several sedatives and propofol would have added to her understanding of why the singer had died.

"I would be concerned particularly if there were other medications given, that it would lead to a respiratory arrest, which would lead to a cardiac arrest," Cooper said.

Nicole Alvarez, a girlfriend Murray called while riding in the ambulance to UCLA, has been ordered to appear in court on Friday. The hearing will also feature detectives, coroner's officials and experts on propofol's effects in the coming days.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?secti ... id=7883145 (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/entertainment&id=7883145)
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/07 ... y-20110107 (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/07/local/la-me-conrad-murray-20110107)
Quote
Judge Michael Pastor, who will decide whether the case proceeds to trial, also heard from two physicians at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center who treated Jackson in the emergency room.

Dr. Richelle Cooper, who supervised his treatment, testified that Murray said he had "witnessed the patient arrest," which she took to mean that he had been in the room when Jackson stopped breathing. She said that when she asked him what had happened, he mentioned the singer's grueling rehearsal schedule.

"Dr. Murray reported the patient had been in his usual state of health, not ill, but had been working very hard, and he thought he may be dehydrated," she said.

Dr. Thao Nguyen said Murray appeared "devastated" and "asked me not to give up easily and try my best to save the patient." Both doctors said that when they asked about what medication he had administered to the singer, Murray mentioned the sedative lorazepam but not propofol.
What I have wrote regarding MJ and the body/cadaver, the paramedics, etc. is my opinion and theory based on research. 8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 14, 2011, 12:48:06 AM
I don't know how to fit this video in here, but it kind of fits i guess  :?
The video is about how relatives of donated body's have no idea how the bodies are being used. I think this one is pretty disturbing, "Cadavers used in crash tests" http://videosift.com/video/Crash-Test-C ... n-Cadavers (http://videosift.com/video/Crash-Test-Corpses-Using-Real-Human-Cadavers), it was aired by MBC news (action news), so everybody can watch it i guess.
I'm just throwing it out here, maybe it will be useful for somebody IDK.  :|
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 14, 2011, 01:05:31 AM
The only reason I will abondon my theory that MJ rode to the hospital is because TS clearly states he did not, and TS does not seem in that post to be in the mode of supporting a false theory to foster discussion. So I'm next going with a dummy, until I see enough reason to go to the next option. My last option with no other choice would be a real dead body, something TS seems to lean towards. Thanks to Im_convincedMJalive for putting out TS' way back post which I should have re-read. :oops:
Quote
viewtopic.php?f=125&t=7194  TS writes:
I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.

For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.

I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.

This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.

Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-t (http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-t) ... a-mystery/? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedic (http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedic) ... -arrived/; http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-j (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-j) ... c-arrest/; http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-j (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-j) ... -911-call/
But my biggest argument against it being a dummy, corpse or no body, is that we clearly see "MJ" sitting up on the stretcher going into UCLA. To me that's a HUGE factor.
Someone suggested however that how do we know for sure that that video of "MJ" arriving at UCLA was actually taken on the 25th?
(http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Jackson+Family+Arriving+UCLA+Medical+Center+gmPdC7h0Cxql.jpg)
(http://static.igossip.com/photos/bittenandbound_entertainment_tonight_59421_ambulance_arrives_at_hospital_with_michael_jackson.jpg)
These two sets of video and pics could have been taken separate days.
Also when Kristina4LOVE posted about the video on realistic dolls, it showed them being able to move them possibly with some remote control technology. Could this person sitting up on the stretcher and in the helicopter be the doll moving by remote control?
http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Real ... dy-Effects (http://www.fruzeo.com/video/486520/Realistic-Dummy-Body-Effects)

Now after reading Im_convinced articles showing several doctors and paramedics clearly seeming to react like the body had died perhaps an hour or so before coming to the hospital. They sound very convincing, and TS says as few in as possible, and so I admit this is a dilemna. But then the body sits up. Michael, Michael, why do you do this to us! :lol:
Quote
by dom425 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:05 pm
MJhasSpoken wrote:I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
:lol: In our wildest dreams! The only thing it will prove is no entrapment, but that's after the BAM.
But this whole hoax is so unpredictable, and MJ can do things anyway he wants to. We're just along for the ride!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 14, 2011, 01:28:48 AM
I'm starting to wonder if we will ever agree on this part. I'm not even sure we can agree on a debate point. Does not bode well for things to come, does it?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 14, 2011, 01:54:04 AM
It's like we're trying to shoot at many constantly moving targets. :roll:  :cry:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: onthewingsoflove on April 14, 2011, 02:58:46 AM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
I have also read that many think medical personnel would not be fooled by a dead corpse because of decomp issues but I say many amazing things can be done to prep the body to appear newly deceased. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver)  Decomp does not happen as quickly as people assume it does. There would be no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition)

This explains the reason for the excessively high temperature in the room. It was done to delay the occurrence of  algor mortis.

According to wikipedia:
Algor mortis (Latin: algor—cold(ness); mortis—of death) is the reduction in body temperature following death. This is generally a steady decline until matching ambient temperature (room temperature), although external factors can have a significant influence.

As long as the temperature in the room stays at or above 98.6 degrees the temperature of the corpse would remove up as well.

Thank you "I'm Convinced!"
Stay blessed!
OnTheWingsOfLove
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Sarahli on April 14, 2011, 03:20:36 AM
Just finished to read it's difficult to catch up on so late  :shock:  I have a question how do we know for sure who has approached, touched, seen the body (if any)? We just have what is in the press and it's not necessarily true.

Just a tought (I'm a so bad investigator that I'm not gonna try to foment a theory)... just want to say that when I think FBI I think secrecy and diversion so I believe that even the people who are in on it do not necessarily know the real truth (= Michael Jackson faked his death) but still cooperate. They can have been told a different story and they would just do what is necessary without asking questions. I can't convince myself that paramedics can be fooled to believe that a person just died with a corpse no matter how hard you heat to room, and even less a doctor. I am more inclined to believe in the no real body theory.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 14, 2011, 03:43:21 AM
Putting MJ/dummy/corpse/nothing to one side for a moment, I'd like to get clear who ('alive') was actually in the ambulance. Exactly how many EMTs were there? And how many of them had actually been attending to 'MJ' in the bedroom?

Richard Senneff
and Martin Blount are the only 2 who gave evidence in the prelim.

Quote
Souza wrote:
ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present)

Blount said he was the driver. In one account, he also said he was the 5th of 5 firefighters to enter the home. (It's in my notes, I need to check where I read it.) He also said that he saw Murray on the phone in the ambulance. (Is this possible if he was driving?)

A paramedic Mark Goodwin is mentioned in Blount's testimony:

"DDA Q: Did you count the number of sites that paramedic Goodwin tried to access to get a line in?
Blount: No."


@ Im_convinced, I'm not convinced that 3 paramedics are confirmed at all! Can I ask you where Jeffrey Mills came from, apart from the witness list?

Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"

Quote
Official General Prelim Discussion thread
viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015)
Then you have the witness list (see thread link above) of who testified at the pre-lim in regards to Dr. Cooper and the paramedics that showed up that day and transported the body to the hospital. Now after the jury questionnaire has been released, (see link below) it shows the full potential witness list. All 3 of the paramedics are confirmed. These are the ones who showed up that day. Richard Senneff FF/PM,  Martin Blount FF/PM and Jeffrey Mills Fire Captain. viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674)



One last thing, for now, just so I'm clear, can someone tell me are firefighters also paramedics in the US?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 14, 2011, 03:50:03 AM
Quote from: "Sarahli"
Just finished to read it's difficult to catch up on so late  :shock:  I have a question how do we know for sure who has approached, touched, seen the body (if any)? We just have what is in the press and it's not necessarily true.

Absolutely Sarahli! It's like we are trying to do a jigsaw puzzle, without all the necessary pieces, without the picture on the box and with some extra pieces that aren't even needed in the puzzle we're trying to do!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 14, 2011, 07:13:18 AM
Quote from: "Sarahli"
Just finished to read it's difficult to catch up on so late  :shock:  I have a question how do we know for sure who has approached, touched, seen the body (if any)? We just have what is in the press and it's not necessarily true.

Just a tought (I'm a so bad investigator that I'm not gonna try to foment a theory)... just want to say that when I think FBI I think secrecy and diversion so I believe that even the people who are in on it do not necessarily know the real truth (= Michael Jackson faked his death) but still cooperate. They can have been told a different story and they would just do what is necessary without asking questions. I can't convince myself that paramedics can be fooled to believe that a person just died with a corpse no matter how hard you heat to room, and even less a doctor. I am more inclined to believe in the no real body theory.

Sarahli thank you for mentioning that people could have been told different stories and they would do whatever is necessary without asking questions. It reminded me of TS  ;)

Quote from: "TS"
All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls, thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 14, 2011, 09:13:55 AM
We will never reach a conclusion. We have discussed all options and have tried all debunk too. We try to predict who is inside the hoax, and those outside it. Each one has their opinion, some believe in puppet, other in cadaver, another in double ...

Bec's theory for me is good. I just think that instead of a puppet, a look-alike could have been used to prevent .
Another thing, as I said, a doctor can not and should not work alone, everyone has a team, even if it is too small.
My theory is someone entered the hospital and  Cooper's team was to meet this person, who for all intents and purposes it was Michael. Alarm shoot so that people shoot out of the hospital to leave and not come near the room where he was the team of Cooper. While people were outside, they helped that person to enter the helicopter to the IML.
Then, the coroner's has to know the hoax, or from here it makes no sense to me! Perhaps the description of the autopsy to be someone who died around day 25. Maybe that same Soule Shaun!
If TS does not give the answers, I think this discussion can be closed, because no there are more alternatives. Soon will start the fights around here.
I give up ... I will not post anything else, while TS  no answer us, because I have no more arguments.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 14, 2011, 12:43:17 PM
We may never agree... until TS comes to moderate this thread... but I think it's important to remember when working on composing a theory, what is possible is not always logical. You can research to death but don't forget to always apply common sense to a situation when trying to discover the truth about what happened that day... and the other day.

 :lol:  sorry, I couldn't resist.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 14, 2011, 12:56:28 PM
True.  Ts may have to step in. I have nothing more significant to add other than;

Oh ye of little faith;
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the bedroom!   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Sorry... I'm getting a bit punchy.  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mdc on April 14, 2011, 01:31:15 PM
I might be crazy but what if it was Evan Chandler in the ambulance on June 25? That would be an interesting twist don't you think? I think if it was him in the ambulance it would explain a lot...or in my mind it would.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 14, 2011, 01:46:49 PM
Quote from: "mdc"
Is there a remote possibility that the body was of someone who was being kept alive on life support until the appropriate day and time and the machine was simply turned off with consent? Then the time delay in calling 911 could have been to remove the life support machines? Would the paramedics have realized this? I think it's likely a terminal patient was living at Carolwood and had agreed to do this. They may even have legally changed their name to Michael Joseph Jackson and obtained a driver's license with the name change on it before falling too ill to do so. All this could have been done in exchange for payment of all medical and funeral expenses of the patient. That's one scenario.

But if they used the assisted suicide scenario... does anybody know if they would have had to land the plane in the state that permits assisted suicide or could it have been done on the plane while still in the air? Also, anybody know what the effects would be of the high altitude and compressed air in an airplane on a corpse? That's something everyone should know right? lol

This is what I KEEP saying.  We all know of Michael's kindness and we know he even brings ill/dying people into his homes.  That's what Neverland was for really.  Maybe one of the doubles was dying.  They needed Murray to treat him.  It was released to the tabloid that he'd die in 6 months because the double would.  They had a rehearsal back in Dec of what would happen when he did die.  He was probably on life support and they unplugged it on June 25th to fit the numbers.  Michael was there with him in the end.  The scene was set up.  The guy looked old, because he had been ill and dying a long time.  Michael left the back way, to the ambulance and the double out the other way slowly to make sure no one was at the other drive.  Maybe the real name was Shaun..maybe not.  Couldn't someone search REAL obit there?  We know none of the AR related to Michael...but perhaps to the dying double, that Michael was lovingly helping, who'd perhaps Michael had become friend to.  That way, the medics would do the cpr, etc...maybe get a heartbeat...if they'd been called on time..and why wouldn't they call?  Why not..it looked like he was dead awhile because he has been on life support.  I've seen people on life support.  Been in the room when we had him unplugged.  The blackness creeps up from the feet, you can see it slowly move up the legs until they are black.  In about 5 min. they look very long dead.  They'd been life like just because they'd kept oxygen in them.  The room warm because it was artificial life support.
I don't know about the FBI.  I think doing this..it's much simpler.  Perhaps is having the fbi to protect himself, or the plan...maybe it wasn't a double, but a dying agent.  But, I think it was someone on life support that they pulled on that very date.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mdc on April 14, 2011, 01:52:31 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "mdc"
Is there a remote possibility that the body was of someone who was being kept alive on life support until the appropriate day and time and the machine was simply turned off with consent? Then the time delay in calling 911 could have been to remove the life support machines? Would the paramedics have realized this? I think it's likely a terminal patient was living at Carolwood and had agreed to do this. They may even have legally changed their name to Michael Joseph Jackson and obtained a driver's license with the name change on it before falling too ill to do so. All this could have been done in exchange for payment of all medical and funeral expenses of the patient. That's one scenario.

But if they used the assisted suicide scenario... does anybody know if they would have had to land the plane in the state that permits assisted suicide or could it have been done on the plane while still in the air? Also, anybody know what the effects would be of the high altitude and compressed air in an airplane on a corpse? That's something everyone should know right? lol

This is what I KEEP saying.  We all know of Michael's kindness and we know he even brings ill/dying people into his homes.  That's what Neverland was for really.  Maybe one of the doubles was dying.  They needed Murray to treat him.  It was released to the tabloid that he'd die in 6 months because the double would.  They had a rehearsal back in Dec of what would happen when he did die.  He was probably on life support and they unplugged it on June 25th to fit the numbers.  Michael was there with him in the end.  The scene was set up.  The guy looked old, because he had been ill and dying a long time.  Michael left the back way, to the ambulance and the double out the other way slowly to make sure no one was at the other drive.  Maybe the real name was Shaun..maybe not.  Couldn't someone search REAL obit there?  We know none of the AR related to Michael...but perhaps to the dying double, that Michael was lovingly helping, who'd perhaps Michael had become friend to.  That way, the medics would do the cpr, etc...maybe get a heartbeat...if they'd been called on time..and why wouldn't they call?  Why not..it looked like he was dead awhile because he has been on life support.  I've seen people on life support.  Been in the room when we had him unplugged.  The blackness creeps up from the feet, you can see it slowly move up the legs until they are black.  In about 5 min. they look very long dead.  They'd been life like just because they'd kept oxygen in them.  The room warm because it was artificial life support.
I don't know about the FBI.  I think doing this..it's much simpler.  Perhaps is having the fbi to protect himself, or the plan...maybe it wasn't a double, but a dying agent.  But, I think it was someone on life support that they pulled on that very date.

I'm going with Evan Chandler.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 14, 2011, 03:05:54 PM
I don't see any of our discussion and theorizing as going nowhere. In the process I've learned even more about the hoax situation, body processes, etc., reinforcing some things I knew somewhat. I really enjoyed reading everyone's input. I think that's what TS wanted us to do, was really get a feel of all the possibilities and focus on things that MJ may have put much energy into choreographing.

Whatever MJ did, I'm okay with, and know he wouldn't hurt anyone or commit any crimes worthy of prison. How the world reacts after BAM is hard to predict, but maybe the changes coming to our world will be so severe that no one will even care how he pulled it off, but only how he can help the world in the upcoming crisis. Several people have had dreams of him leading an army, and I think the hoax purposes are like TS has said, "BIG. This is really it."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iVRKUGv9iw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iVRKUGv9iw)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 14, 2011, 03:16:04 PM
Guys I'm going to say something different and off topic but have you ever wondered why Marlon is the ONLY brother that has been wearing the FBI cap? He didn't wear it once, there're a couple of pictures of him wearing the same cap after the 25th. I'm asking this because as we all know Jermaine wrote that Marlon's Twitter account was a fake. I still feel like it wasn't because his account was fake or it wasn't someone else who tweeted from that account but Jermaine did it to take the attention on Marlon or on his account. BUT WHY? And then TS came up with this post starting with Marlon's picture with the FBI cap on. Marlon is the one who doesn't talk much about the trial or justice issue. So, what I'm trying to say is, can Marlon be an FBI agent or does he have some relation with the FBI? Did Jermaine try to take the attention on Marlon because of this? Why didn't we see any other brothers wearing an FBI cap?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 14, 2011, 03:51:17 PM
I honestly think we need some order into this thread.
It's difficult to read and follow a theory or another.
I wish there would be somebody here who has more time to make a quick brief of all the theories presented by now.
I just can't follow all the posts.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 14, 2011, 03:53:24 PM
The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.

The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?

I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 14, 2011, 04:11:59 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.

The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?

I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.

A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 14, 2011, 04:15:17 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Guys I'm going to say something different and off topic but have you ever wondered why Marlon is the ONLY brother that has been wearing the FBI cap? He didn't wear it once, there're a couple of pictures of him wearing the same cap after the 25th. I'm asking this because as we all know Jermaine wrote that Marlon's Twitter account was a fake. I still feel like it wasn't because his account was fake or it wasn't someone else who tweeted from that account but Jermaine did it to take the attention on Marlon or on his account. BUT WHY? And then TS came up with this post starting with Marlon's picture with the FBI cap on. Marlon is the one who doesn't talk much about the trial or justice issue. So, what I'm trying to say is, can Marlon be an FBI agent or does he have some relation with the FBI? Did Jermaine try to take the attention on Marlon because of this? Why didn't we see any other brothers wearing an FBI cap?

Like I said before in this post, I have read somewhere and for the love of God I cannot find it, is that Marlon has a friend in the FBI. I guess he gave it to him, and that is why the FBI IS  involved. blessings.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 14, 2011, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Guys I'm going to say something different and off topic but have you ever wondered why Marlon is the ONLY brother that has been wearing the FBI cap? He didn't wear it once, there're a couple of pictures of him wearing the same cap after the 25th. I'm asking this because as we all know Jermaine wrote that Marlon's Twitter account was a fake. I still feel like it wasn't because his account was fake or it wasn't someone else who tweeted from that account but Jermaine did it to take the attention on Marlon or on his account. BUT WHY? And then TS came up with this post starting with Marlon's picture with the FBI cap on. Marlon is the one who doesn't talk much about the trial or justice issue. So, what I'm trying to say is, can Marlon be an FBI agent or does he have some relation with the FBI? Did Jermaine try to take the attention on Marlon because of this? Why didn't we see any other brothers wearing an FBI cap?

Like I said before in this post, I have read somewhere and for the love of God I cannot find it, is that Marlon has a friend in the FBI. I guess he gave it to him, and that is why the FBI IS  involved. blessings.

hmmm never heard of it before but still if Marlon didn't want to take the attention to that FBI cap, he wouldn't wear it more than once I think. :) Definitely Marlon looks like he has a relation with the FBI.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 14, 2011, 04:22:06 PM
But I'm sure FBI agents don't go around wearing FBI caps, or get one from work that they can give out to a friend. He must have gotten it from some novelty store for the hoax or gotten it made specially.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: katooooooo on April 14, 2011, 04:26:53 PM
Quote from: "MJonmind"
But I'm sure FBI agents don't go around wearing FBI caps, or get one from work that they can give out to a friend. He must have gotten it from some novelty store for the hoax or gotten it made specially.

http://www.uswings.com/lawcaps.asp#6055 (http://www.uswings.com/lawcaps.asp#6055) 14,95$ and you can get one if you want  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 14, 2011, 04:35:46 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.

The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?

I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.

A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.

Not one who had been ill a long time, like maybe since even when the tabloid said MJ was gonna die in 6 months.  If the double had been ill then on life support, he'd really be dead until taken off it.  He could have really deteriorated.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 14, 2011, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: "MJonmind"
But I'm sure FBI agents don't go around wearing FBI caps, or get one from work that they can give out to a friend. He must have gotten it from some novelty store for the hoax or gotten it made specially.

Yes, but the question is why the only one wearing the FBI cap is Marlon? It is definitely hoax related but other brothers never wear it but Marlon does. I still believe Marlon is related with the FBI somehow and not because of MJ only. That's my gut feeling.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 14, 2011, 05:57:20 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.

The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?

I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.

A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.

If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 14, 2011, 06:02:42 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.

The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?

I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.

A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.

If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.

No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 14, 2011, 06:08:11 PM
Why couldn't it be a double that had become terminal?  If someone is ill a very long time, they loose weight.  If it were cancer, their hair would fall out from therapies.  If they had been on life support, they'd not only have lost hair, but tremendous weight by being on iv fluids.  They'd have meds and that would make them look frail and old.  Their body and face would be sunken and the skin thinned.  Then they would be able to look like an old man.  When taken off life support, they'd look as though dead a long time because they'd look dark!  I've seen this happen twice to relatives.

It wouldn't BE an assisted death!!  Life support would've just been terminated as happens everyday to terminal patients.  They are already brain dead, organs stopped functioning.  They'd been kept alive..so could be taken off any day..like June 25th.  That happened to my friend who had cancer, and was brain dead and progressed to where he was only alive artificially.  They had to decide when to just turn it off.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 14, 2011, 06:11:23 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Why couldn't it be a double that had become terminal?  If someone is ill a very long time, they loose weight.  If it were cancer, their hair would fall out from therapies.  If they had been on life support, they'd not only have lost hair, but tremendous weight by being on iv fluids.  They'd have meds and that would make them look frail and old.  Their body and face would be sunken and the skin thinned.  Then they would be able to look like an old man.  When taken off life support, they'd look as though dead a long time because they'd look dark!  I've seen this happen twice to relatives.

It wouldn't BE an assisted death!!  Life support would've just been terminated as happens everyday to terminal patients.  They are already brain dead, organs stopped functioning.  They'd been kept alive..so could be taken off any day..like June 25th.  That happened to my friend who had cancer, and was brain dead and progressed to where he was only alive artificially.  They had to decide when to just turn it off.

If someone were living there, being doctored by murray, had just 6 months to live..then organs began to shut down..say terminal cancer (and we know how Michael helped cancer victims) they ..family or someone with medical power of attorney, has to just shut off life support one day.  That's what has to happen to those people one day.   They are really dead.  Eaten up from the disease.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 14, 2011, 06:15:29 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Why couldn't it be a double that had become terminal?  If someone is ill a very long time, they loose weight.  If it were cancer, their hair would fall out from therapies.  If they had been on life support, they'd not only have lost hair, but tremendous weight by being on iv fluids.  They'd have meds and that would make them look frail and old.  Their body and face would be sunken and the skin thinned.  Then they would be able to look like an old man.  When taken off life support, they'd look as though dead a long time because they'd look dark!  I've seen this happen twice to relatives.

It wouldn't BE an assisted death!!  Life support would've just been terminated as happens everyday to terminal patients.  They are already brain dead, organs stopped functioning.  They'd been kept alive..so could be taken off any day..like June 25th.  That happened to my friend who had cancer, and was brain dead and progressed to where he was only alive artificially.  They had to decide when to just turn it off.

If someone were living there, being doctored by murray, had just 6 months to live..then organs began to shut down..say terminal cancer (and we know how Michael helped cancer victims) they ..family or someone with medical power of attorney, has to just shut off life support one day.  That's what has to happen to those people one day.   They are really dead.  Eaten up from the disease.

And conveniently it was an MJ double? That didn't look like MJ... No, I don't buy that. This hoax was planned a long time ago, and a double dying around the planned date would be too much of a coincidence. If there was a real body, it was no double.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 14, 2011, 06:17:32 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.
The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?
I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.

A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.

If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.

No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.


You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to  inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.

Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 14, 2011, 06:27:38 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.
The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?
I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.

A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.

If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.

No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.


You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to  inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.

Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.

Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 14, 2011, 06:40:12 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
[quote="~Souza~"
A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.

If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.

No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.

You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to  inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.[/color]

Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.

Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.[/color][/quote][/quote]

 I underlined inconsistency problems.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 14, 2011, 06:54:13 PM
But then MJ would've had to suggest to him the day of June 25. And the guy would say, well I was thinking April or May. And Michael would say, please or I promise to take good care of you. Or would he say, so Michael when would you like me to die to help you out?  Hmm...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 14, 2011, 07:20:34 PM
Quote from: "curls"
Putting MJ/dummy/corpse/nothing to one side for a moment, I'd like to get clear who ('alive') was actually in the ambulance. Exactly how many EMTs were there? And how many of them had actually been attending to 'MJ' in the bedroom?

Richard Senneff
and Martin Blount are the only 2 who gave evidence in the prelim.

Quote
Souza wrote:
ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present)

Blount said he was the driver. In one account, he also said he was the 5th of 5 firefighters to enter the home. (It's in my notes, I need to check where I read it.) He also said that he saw Murray on the phone in the ambulance. (Is this possible if he was driving?)

A paramedic Mark Goodwin is mentioned in Blount's testimony:

"DDA Q: Did you count the number of sites that paramedic Goodwin tried to access to get a line in?
Blount: No."


@ Im_convinced, I'm not convinced that 3 paramedics are confirmed at all! Can I ask you where Jeffrey Mills came from, apart from the witness list?

Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"

Quote
Official General Prelim Discussion thread
viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17015)
Then you have the witness list (see thread link above) of who testified at the pre-lim in regards to Dr. Cooper and the paramedics that showed up that day and transported the body to the hospital. Now after the jury questionnaire has been released, (see link below) it shows the full potential witness list. All 3 of the paramedics are confirmed. These are the ones who showed up that day. Richard Senneff FF/PM,  Martin Blount FF/PM and Jeffrey Mills Fire Captain. viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=18674)



One last thing, for now, just so I'm clear, can someone tell me are firefighters also paramedics in the US?
Hi curls,

Where did you read that Blount said he drove? According to what I have read regarding the 2 paramedics who testified at the pre-lim; Senneff talked about the ambulance driver but was not specific about who. Blount was quoted in the same article as Senneff as being in the room with Murray working on MJ with Senneff. That is my own conclusion based on what I have read.

This was a process of input by 2good2btrue providing the pictures of the paramedics and the roster list. Then Grace mentioned Jefferey Mills. That was my first time being aware of him. I did some research and found the info I needed to come to a conclusion. After the full potential witness list came out when the questionnaire was released; Jefferey Mills Fire Captain was confirmed as being there on 6/25/2009 and it wasn't just my opinion or theory anymore. I hope the info here will help you.
;)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=850#p317061 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=850#p317061)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=850#p317143 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=850#p317143)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=875#p317232 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=875#p317232)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=875#p317239 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=875#p317239)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=900#p317378 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=900#p317378)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=900#p317570 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=900#p317570)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=925#p317625 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=925#p317625)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... spita.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/01/michael-jackson-hearing-paparazzi-fans-hampered-paramedics-from-getting-stricken-pop-star-to-hospita.html)
Quote
Senneff said that the ambulance driver had trouble navigating away from the residence because of a throng that included passengers of a tour bus and photographers with “big cameras, little cameras, video cameras, still cameras.”

At one point, a man with a video camera ran alongside the ambulance holding a camera with a large lens against the window. “It just seemed wrong,” he said. Under questioning by a defense lawyer, Senneff said Murray wanted to put a “central line” to restart Jackson’s heart, but that medics did not have equipment or training to do so.

Judge Michael Pastor also heard from a second paramedic who, like Senneff, said that Murray initially claimed he had not given his patient any medication.

Martin Blount said the denial struck him as odd because he saw a hypodermic needle and three bottles of lidocaine in the room. Murray, he said, “scooped up” the bottles and placed them in a bag before they left for the hospital. “Did you ever see those bottles again,” Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren asked. “No, sir,” Blount replied. Murray, 57, has pleaded not guilty.
[youtube:133506en]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09tRR6ppKQ[/youtube:133506en]
Quote
Uploaded by LAFD027 on Jun 25, 2009
Discover the value of every LAFD Rescue Ambulance. Every Fire Station (currently) has at least one ambulance. In most single engine stations, the ambulance is for "Basic Life Support" or BLS responses. It is staffed by EMT/Firefighters. Single engine stations often utilize an "assessment" Engine, meaning a Paramedic is on the engine. Larger stations have "Advanced Life Support" or ALS ambulances, staffed by two paramedics. When you see an LAFD ambulance on the road, you can tell which is which by their numbers. An ALS ambulance from FS9 will have RA9 on the side. A BLS ambulance from FS9 will have 809 on the side. If the ambulance is from a station in the higher numbers, such as fire station 104, the BLS ambulance will be numbered RA904.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 14, 2011, 07:22:50 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
[quote="~Souza~"
A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.

If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.

No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.

You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to  inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.[/color]

Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.

Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.[/color]
[/quote]

 I underlined inconsistency problems.[/quote]


I still don't see any problems.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 14, 2011, 08:16:52 PM
....... And if that person did not die the day 25, and if it was the night before or the dawning, remember what he said Kai Chase the cook from Michael , she was strange that prepared soup toscana of white beans to Michael and Murray the night before but when he came to work the next morning the soup was intact. :roll:  Since i do not know what to say :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 14, 2011, 08:41:02 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
[quote="~Souza~"
A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.

If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.

No, because that means the date of death was a coincidence, since assisted suicide isn't legal in California.

You think Michael or his rep. would contact doctors of those 3 states and set up agreement to  inform him wich patient got agreed to die so they would realize hoax? Besides there is a certain legal requirement they have to meet that also could make hoax date, numerology and timing wise, random.[/color]

Legal Requirements: The Oregon Death with Dignity Act, and the Washington statute modeled after it, set certain requirements and safeguards before a person may commit suicide with a doctor's assistance. The patient must be of sound mind when they request a prescription for a lethal dose of medication. Two doctors must confirm a diagnosis of terminal illness with no more than six months to live. Two witnesses, one non-doctor unrelated to the patient, must confirm the patient's request, and the patient must make a second request after 15 days.

Where is the problem? The patient can choose his own death date.[/color]

 I underlined inconsistency problems.[/quote]

I still don't see any problems.[/quote]

Come on Souza. .You don't see or you don't want to see?  (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-085.gif)   There would definitely  be inconsistences in numerology 25, timing 12.21, 911 cal l, and other timings if the ambulance patient going to be the dead patient flying from Oregon, since there is a time to comply with legal requirements and plane fly that simply could be delayed for any reason.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 14, 2011, 08:44:10 PM
This may or may not be a pretty big clue.

Anyone familiar with TS's updates will remember this:

Quote
This update 6.5 (6 + 5 = 11) was posted at 11:30 PM (CA time), on 11-30 (November 30). Also, a few days ago TIAI redirected to a clock with the hands at 11:30 {http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=16037}. What is the significance of this? As usual, the redirect had more than one meaning.

The Thriller album was released on 11-30 {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thriller_(album)}; and Eliza’s case was previously scheduled for 11-30, although it is now rescheduled for 12-14 {http://chancerydata.shelbycountytn.gov/pls/chweb/ck_public_qry_doct.cp_dktrpt_frames?backto=P&case_id=CH-09-1696}.

Speaking of Thriller, 11:30 (PM) is “close to midnight ... the midnight hour is close at hand”. So 11:30 also represents near the end (end of the day, or end of the hoax, or end of the world, etc).

And finally, we are now about half way between 2009 and 2012 (“four more years”); and 11:30 is half way between 11:00 and 12:00. The clock is ticking, and there is no time for unimportant or unkind controversy. Yes, some things are important and must be discussed—even if we don’t agree; but even then, disagreements should be done respectfully. It’s all for LOVE!

Then today on TMZ, look at this article title and time.

Shakira -- NOBODY Stole My Jewelry!

4/14/2011 11:30 AM PDT by TMZ Staff  
http://www.tmz.com/2011/04/14/shakira-r ... rt-mexico/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/04/14/shakira-ring-not-stolen-fan-video-concert-mexico/)

Posted at 11:30...NOBODY in CAPS....No Body??
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 14, 2011, 09:11:18 PM
No real dead body. It is sick, wrong and illegal. The FBI isn't above the law. There is a word for people who act as if they are above the law. We call them criminals.

Where is decency?  NOTHING makes involving a real human body, as a Law Enforcement or Hollywood prop, acceptable.  :x

It would be another matter, say, if during a robbery or something, the body became deceased in the line of weapon-fire, to use to provide escape for the remaining living or some similar scenario, in that INSTANT, but just to make a plan to go get one from the "dispensary" is as disrespectful as some of the other things which happen to unsuspectingly donated "to science" corpses.

Put this shoe on, for a moment: would you feel differently if the dead body being "used" was one of his brothers?  How about if it was YOUR brother? I am NOT being  rude or gross, please listen...using ANY one's body in some "Sting" or hoax is the rudeness. If it's ok to use some homeless person or some stranger's it's ok to use that of your loved ones, too. Do certain of us (humans) have less value? (Just asking.)

It really bothers me that people are desensitized to this. Very scary. :?

I know that the real value of the person, their spirit and soul are gone, and it's just like a coat someone discarded as they left us, but as God-made remains, in the likeness of someone's loved one, they deserve respect, not a new, post mortem adventure. :shock:

I can't IMAGINE  Mr.  :) "Love and Let's Live Forever" going along with anything remotely like this, but, I am willing to hear the explanation(s) and rationale, before I am totally repulsed. Even Michael Jackson is accountable to decency, but, to be fair, I don't know what he would have had to allow himself to get into, either...

The heated room also makes a real dead body dangerous. I won't go into why, as the last two times trying to post this, ended in vaporization of the posts. Either I am paranoid, or simply just not ALLOWED to go THERE. It has not been the practice and protocol to chill them, always wear gloves around them, and store them in a separately ventilated area, for NOTHING.

Anyway, high temps expedite decomposition, & depending upon the length of "holding" time in the hyper-heated environment, the persons playing with any real corpse would risk it requiring a WetVac to move the thing at all...Bodies dying under certain circumstances can begin to come apart the same day, despite what Wiki says.

Anyway, I already posted my other reasons for not using a real body, here:

viewtopic.php?f=145&t=17192&start=50#p301930 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=17192&start=50#p301930)

I now think that there was NOTHING in the ambulance, no dummy, especially; everything could shopped in that photo, except for the two EMTs/FBI agents acting as EMTs. If you'll notice, the covered "shape" which is moved to the helicopter is way too slight of frame and flat, under the sheet. A balled up sheet or two is explainable, a mannequin or dummy of some kind is way too complicated to make disappear, particularly in such tight quarters, on TV with the world watching. :roll:  

Likewise with MJ or a substitute. TOO much of a risk in such tight maneuvering room. It is not a parlor trick, there is way too much at risk for this to go wrong and be exposed in the first HOUR of the hoax :!:  :!:  :!:  I posted all this before, anyway, as well. ANY life sized dummy would have been impossible to get rid of, with all eyes watching that little bit of area around the ambulance. That's all, my two cents. :|
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 14, 2011, 09:27:43 PM
Quote from: "Its her"
No real dead body. It is sick, wrong and illegal. The FBI isn't above the law. There is a word for people who act as if they are above the law. We call them criminals.
Where is decency?  NOTHING makes involving a real human body, as a Law Enforcement or Hollywood prop, acceptable.  :x
I now think that there was NOTHING in the ambulance, no dummy, especially; everything could shopped in that photo, except for the two EMTs/FBI agents acting as EMTs. If you'll notice, the covered "shape" which is moved to the helicopter is way too slight of frame and flat, under the sheet. A balled up sheet or two is explainable, a mannequin or dummy of some kind is way too complicated to make disappear, particularly in such tight quarters, on TV with the world watching. :roll:
Likewise with MJ or a substitute. TOO much of a risk in such tight maneuvering room. It is not a parlor trick, there is way too much at risk for this to go wrong and be exposed in the first HOUR of the hoax :!:  :!:  :!:  I posted all this before, anyway, as well. ANY life sized dummy would have been impossible to get rid of, with all eyes watching that little bit of area around the ambulance. That's all, my two cents. :|


If you are so certain in your theory that there was no body at all, in ambulance and in helicopter. Do you have certain theory who's body was observed & autopsy out there?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 14, 2011, 09:34:13 PM
I thought those caps were odd as well Andrea, you might have a point. Yet that would mean many more would be in. I know that a dead body that looks like a sick old frail man would raise questions, but that will only let people suspect things. No body at all means that people present at the house, the EMT's, and everyone present in the room at the hospital are in on it.

Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.

Besides the plane-issue, I have not seen one solid argument against the real corpse theory, other than opinions based on emotions. Itsher, who decides what is sick and what isn't? Do you think this hoax is one big PR stunt, or can you wrap your mind around the idea that this may be a big global sting operation which has been going on for quite some time, where MJ might not have the last say on everything? Would the use of a dead body be illigal in this case? I don't know. Can you back up that claim?

Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of the dead body theory, but because I think this is bigger than anyone of us can comprehend and because I myself and some others in this discussion do not see it as sick or morbid, I still think it's very possible, until someone can show me otherwise. A real body means less people involved, no body at all means many people involved and risky since there would be an empty stretcher. A double who died seems way too coincidental, a double that would be alive or MJ himself doesn't match the description of the EMT's and the doctor that the person was long gone, plus they all have to be in on it in this case as well, since you can't perform CPR on a person that is alive and kicking, plus MJ or the double couldn't fake a cardiac arrest. I would buy the dummy story if it could fool an EMT (doctor not necessary, since Cooper called the TOD which fits into the numerology, therefore she MUST be in) and maybe some nurses present in the hospital room, but I doubt it.
Does anyone know how many people were working on the body at UCLA?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 14, 2011, 09:41:42 PM
Quote from: "Andrea"
This may or may not be a pretty big clue.

Anyone familiar with TS's updates will remember this:

Quote
This update 6.5 (6 + 5 = 11) was posted at 11:30 PM (CA time), on 11-30 (November 30). Also, a few days ago TIAI redirected to a clock with the hands at 11:30 {http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=16037}. What is the significance of this? As usual, the redirect had more than one meaning.

The Thriller album was released on 11-30 {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thriller_(album)}; and Eliza’s case was previously scheduled for 11-30, although it is now rescheduled for 12-14 {http://chancerydata.shelbycountytn.gov/pls/chweb/ck_public_qry_doct.cp_dktrpt_frames?backto=P&case_id=CH-09-1696}.

Speaking of Thriller, 11:30 (PM) is “close to midnight ... the midnight hour is close at hand”. So 11:30 also represents near the end (end of the day, or end of the hoax, or end of the world, etc).

And finally, we are now about half way between 2009 and 2012 (“four more years”); and 11:30 is half way between 11:00 and 12:00. The clock is ticking, and there is no time for unimportant or unkind controversy. Yes, some things are important and must be discussed—even if we don’t agree; but even then, disagreements should be done respectfully. It’s all for LOVE!

Then today on TMZ, look at this article title and time.

Shakira -- NOBODY Stole My Jewelry!

4/14/2011 11:30 AM PDT by TMZ Staff  
http://www.tmz.com/2011/04/14/shakira-r ... rt-mexico/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/04/14/shakira-ring-not-stolen-fan-video-concert-mexico/)

Posted at 11:30...NOBODY in CAPS....No Body??

A-fucking-men. No Body.

You guys are going to extreme, elaborate lengths to argue that there COULD have been a body. Yeah well MJ could have gotten in the space shuttle and blasted off to the moon. After all he is the MOONwalker. It's possible you know. Don't make me post a thousand links and videos about civilian space travel...

A dead body is not logical, it doesn't make sense, it's totally out of character, and it's incredibly complicated, not to mention scientifically and biologically very difficult (if not impossible, you can't entubulate a corpse) as well as illegal. I've proved all that already, I'm done, carry on with your bad selves.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 14, 2011, 09:43:37 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"

Besides the plane-issue, I have not seen one solid argument against the real corpse theory, other than opinions based on emotions.

BS. I gave plenty.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 14, 2011, 09:47:09 PM
Well isn't this great. All these days and pages later and we are all arguing and no closer to agreeing on anything.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 14, 2011, 09:53:28 PM
This is a picture of the three firemen left behind after the ambulance left the home..two wearing gloves, and the third isnt...

http://www.wat.tv/video/michael-jackson ... exyf_.html (http://www.wat.tv/video/michael-jackson-ambulance-1lnmx_2exyf_.html)


And that's after two Black SUV sped off from the property behind the ambulance...then followed by the paparazzi...

Therefore Ben Evensted has told another lie.  He was NOT the car behind the ambulance.  They were both the security guards cars..
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 14, 2011, 09:57:49 PM
Dummy - yes.  Dead body - no.  Is what I think.

Anybody in the Carolwood home that day would be in Michael's circle of trust.  He had to escape unnoticed whether there was a dummy or dead body anyways so the dummy is just easier on so many levels.  I still think there were two dummies, one in the ambulance photo and the other a frail old guy.

The ambulance photo proves to me that the paramedics were in on it.  If it was a frail old guy they transported they would've seen the photo and said, "Hey, wait a minute!!" because the guy in that photo is clearly not what they described.  They also refer to the body as "it".

Faking one's death is not an easy task and you do need certain people to be in on it initially.  Not everyone in the house had to be necessarily - I'm sure Michael's room was off-limits or whoever didn't know what was going on would've been ushered away and out of sight.  The people who transport the dummy know, the doctor at UCLA knows as does the coroner.  That's not too many people in my opinion.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: looking4truth on April 14, 2011, 10:07:12 PM
I apologize if this was mentioned. To be honest, I'm being lazy and not reading the back posts. I don't think a dead body was used for this. I don't think it is necessary. I'll try to explain this the best way I can.

I keep thinking about Ben's "slip up" of "the other day..." and I think this was deliberate to let us know that this situation happened on another day. I personally believe, like others, that the famous ambulance photo and the photos of the body going in the hospital were done prior to June 25th. This may have been part of the secretive Dome Project where they shot specific photos in a movie lot at an undisclosed location. I think a dummy or Michael or a double was used for the photos. I am not sure. I would have to look closer at these photos to figure if the person is even a real person to determine the dummy theory. Anyway, I think the photos were done prior to June 25th for a few reasons. 1) They can set up the right lighting, angle, positioning of EMTs and the possible leaf pattern (if you believe it was there and not photoshopped in). 2) In the photo of the body being pushed in the hospital, there is really no crowd around and there are a few photos. Plus, there is no video of this scene, only photos. (Unless I missed something. Please let me know if I did.) With this in mind, it would be easier to stage the photos and even use a dummy that is mechanically-controlled to make it look like MJ was sitting up on the stretcher. It may sound far-fetch but it is possible.

I think they recreated the scenario on June 25th and this time taped it and had the same people that were involved with the staged photo shoot. Again, I think a dummy was used on this day. No need to have a real body if they are involved with the photoshoot.

That's my theory. I'm sure there are tons of holes. Please feel free to poke at them. Unfortunately, I haven't had time to really investigate as of lately but I'm still reading and lurking around. I think there is a reason why TS keeps emphasizing on this other day and I'm guessing this could be the reason.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 14, 2011, 10:19:57 PM
Quote from: ~Souza~
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.

Analysis of California’s Assisted Suicide Proposal
“COMPASSIONATE CHOICES ACT” (AB 374)

Update (6/7/07): AB 374 failed to get through the Assembly. The bill is “shelved,” meaning it cannot be brought up again until January 2008.

On 2/15/07, Assemblywoman Patty Berg, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) and Speaker of the Assembly Fabian Nunez introduced the latest assisted suicide bill, the 2007 “California Compassionate Choices Act” (AB 374). The bill, patterned after Oregon’s assisted-suicide law, contains the same provisions as AB 651 that failed in 2006.

On 3/27/07, the bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee in a 7-3 vote and, on 5/31/07, it passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee 10-5. Assisted-suicide advocates scheduled it for a full Assembly vote on 6/6/07, later delaying the vote for a day when they realized they did not have sufficient support. The necessary support to pass the measure did not materialize and the bill was shelved on 6/7/07.
[/u]

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/california-analysis/

I guess I am gonna repeat DEAD BODY OF CANCER PATIENT WHO LIVED AT MJ'S HOUSE WAS TRANSPORTED TO UCLA, because....

California approves nurse-assisted suicide
Schwarzenegger signs bill authorizing dehydration, starvation of patients

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: October 02, 2008
12:30 am Eastern

© 2011 WorldNetDaily


California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger
 

SACRAMENTO – California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has officially approved an assisted suicide measure allowing nurses to sedate, dehydrate and starve depressed or confused individuals they consider to be "terminally ill."

The bill, sponsored by Assemblywoman Patty Berg, a Democrat, passed the California Assembly Aug. 28, and the state Senate Aug. 20. It was signed by the governor yesterday.

The legislation, called the "Terminal Patients' Right to Know End of Life Options Act," or AB 2747, passed by a 42 to 34 vote. An Aug. 20 Senate vote of 21 to 17 ushered the measure to the governor's desk for signing.

Randy Thomasson, chief of the Campaign for Children and Families, said the legislation is dangerous and should have been vetoed by Gov. Schwarzenegger.

"AB 2747 pushes suicide through the back door at the hands of non-physicians taking advantage of depressed patients," he said in a statement. "AB 2747 cheapens the value of human life by endorsing suicide as an option."

The measure allows physician assistants and nurses to decide whether a person is "terminally ill" and deprive them of basic life-sustaining necessities such as food and water.

"Depressed patients who succumb to this pressure will be drugged unconscious and die from dehydration, usually within five to 10 days," Thomasson said. "Nothing in the bill prohibits this horror."

Thomasson said Berg "deceptively changed" the bill to appear that "voluntarily stopping of eating and drinking" and "palliative sedation" no longer were on a list of "symptom management" options.


And your right Souza, dead body means less people in hoax, which more reasonable.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 14, 2011, 10:29:40 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.

Analysis of California’s Assisted Suicide Proposal
“COMPASSIONATE CHOICES ACT” (AB 374)

Update (6/7/07): AB 374 failed to get through the Assembly. The bill is “shelved,” meaning it cannot be brought up again until January 2008.

On 2/15/07, Assemblywoman Patty Berg, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) and Speaker of the Assembly Fabian Nunez introduced the latest assisted suicide bill, the 2007 “California Compassionate Choices Act” (AB 374). The bill, patterned after Oregon’s assisted-suicide law, contains the same provisions as AB 651 that failed in 2006.

On 3/27/07, the bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee in a 7-3 vote and, on 5/31/07, it passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee 10-5. Assisted-suicide advocates scheduled it for a full Assembly vote on 6/6/07, later delaying the vote for a day when they realized they did not have sufficient support. The necessary support to pass the measure did not materialize and the bill was shelved on 6/7/07.
[/u]

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/si ... -analysis/ (http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/california-analysis/)

Yes, that was never my point. I KNOW it's illegal in California, but I want to know if a patient from Washington for exaple, can choose WHERE he wants to self-administer the drugs, OUTside the state where it is legal, but being a Washington resident. No doctor has to be there on the day itself, so that means he can administer it wherever he wants. The doctor did everything according the law, and he doesn't have to be at his patient's side, so he can't help it if he flies to Cali. And the patient himself will be dead and can't be charged either. So my guess is that he could very well have commited assisted suicide at Carolwood Drive.

@bec, I have seen your arguments and I replied to them as well, if I haven't missed any. So far I'm not yet convinced, so the real body theory is not yet debunked for me.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 14, 2011, 10:32:50 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.

Analysis of California’s Assisted Suicide Proposal
“COMPASSIONATE CHOICES ACT” (AB 374)

Update (6/7/07): AB 374 failed to get through the Assembly. The bill is “shelved,” meaning it cannot be brought up again until January 2008.

On 2/15/07, Assemblywoman Patty Berg, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) and Speaker of the Assembly Fabian Nunez introduced the latest assisted suicide bill, the 2007 “California Compassionate Choices Act” (AB 374). The bill, patterned after Oregon’s assisted-suicide law, contains the same provisions as AB 651 that failed in 2006.

On 3/27/07, the bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee in a 7-3 vote and, on 5/31/07, it passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee 10-5. Assisted-suicide advocates scheduled it for a full Assembly vote on 6/6/07, later delaying the vote for a day when they realized they did not have sufficient support. The necessary support to pass the measure did not materialize and the bill was shelved on 6/7/07.
[/u]

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/si ... -analysis/ (http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/california-analysis/)

Yes, that was never my point. I KNOW it's illegal in California, but I want to know if a patient from Washington for exaple, can choose WHERE he wants to self-administer the drugs, OUTside the state where it is legal, but being a Washington resident. No doctor has to be there on the day itself, so that means he can administer it wherever he wants. The doctor did everything according the law, and he doesn't have to be at his patient's side, so he can't help it if he flies to Cali. And the patient himself will be dead and can't be charged either. So my guess is that he could very well have commited assisted suicide at Carolwood Drive.

@bec, I have seen your arguments and I replied to them as well, if I haven't missed any. So far I'm not yet convinced, so the real body theory is not yet debunked for me.


It is legal in CA. See  my edited post above & link  http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76713 (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76713)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 14, 2011, 10:44:04 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.

Analysis of California’s Assisted Suicide Proposal
“COMPASSIONATE CHOICES ACT” (AB 374)

Update (6/7/07): AB 374 failed to get through the Assembly. The bill is “shelved,” meaning it cannot be brought up again until January 2008.

On 2/15/07, Assemblywoman Patty Berg, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) and Speaker of the Assembly Fabian Nunez introduced the latest assisted suicide bill, the 2007 “California Compassionate Choices Act” (AB 374). The bill, patterned after Oregon’s assisted-suicide law, contains the same provisions as AB 651 that failed in 2006.

On 3/27/07, the bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee in a 7-3 vote and, on 5/31/07, it passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee 10-5. Assisted-suicide advocates scheduled it for a full Assembly vote on 6/6/07, later delaying the vote for a day when they realized they did not have sufficient support. The necessary support to pass the measure did not materialize and the bill was shelved on 6/7/07.
[/u]

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/si ... -analysis/ (http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/california-analysis/)

Yes, that was never my point. I KNOW it's illegal in California, but I want to know if a patient from Washington for exaple, can choose WHERE he wants to self-administer the drugs, OUTside the state where it is legal, but being a Washington resident. No doctor has to be there on the day itself, so that means he can administer it wherever he wants. The doctor did everything according the law, and he doesn't have to be at his patient's side, so he can't help it if he flies to Cali. And the patient himself will be dead and can't be charged either. So my guess is that he could very well have commited assisted suicide at Carolwood Drive.

@bec, I have seen your arguments and I replied to them as well, if I haven't missed any. So far I'm not yet convinced, so the real body theory is not yet debunked for me.


It is legal in CA. See  my edited post above & link  http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76713 (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76713)

That's a different situation. That's removing a feeding tube. Death is slow and timing is unpredictable. Can take hours, can take days.

I reread my blog from 2009 and early 2010. I'm sticking with my research and my gut in this one. There was no dead body used in the course of this hoax. If I'm wrong then I've been wrong about a lot of things along the way, but the record shows that's not been the case. If I'm wrong then all laughs on me. I don't think I'm wrong.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 14, 2011, 10:48:34 PM
Oh, I misread! Here is more info on HOW: http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=76713 (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=76713)

Doesn't look like you can really plan it like that. I think self-administering lethal drugs is not really a good option, but this is even worse. :?
And they condemn us for our euthanasia policy? Okay... :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 14, 2011, 11:11:45 PM
About the dead body involving the least people being "in on it".

TS said:
Quote
Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better;

The fewer - the better.  Not the fewest - the best.  TS could've said that if there really was a dead body because that probably would have the least amount of people in on it.  But TS said fewer and better.  That could mean the hoax operated on a less-than-ideal scenario for the body, which I would think would be the use of a dummy.  Maybe I'm twisting TS's words but TS tends to word things very carefully.

Quote
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.

I am under the impression that TS wants the dead body theory to be de-bunked as that is what the last paragraph focused on.  Otherwise he's almost telling us it was a dead body and it's not TS's style to give it away right off the bat like that.  We haven't even figured out the leaf-pattern thing yet.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 14, 2011, 11:12:55 PM
Curator Curtis Huber, left, and curator assistant Eric Valencia lift a wax figure of Michael Jackson to put in the front display at the Wax Museum at Fisherman’s Wharf in San Francisco on Thursday 25th June 2009.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 14, 2011, 11:13:28 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "Its her"
No real dead body. It is sick, wrong and illegal. The FBI isn't above the law. There is a word for people who act as if they are above the law. We call them criminals.
Where is decency?  NOTHING makes involving a real human body, as a Law Enforcement or Hollywood prop, acceptable.  :x
I now think that there was NOTHING in the ambulance, no dummy, especially; everything could shopped in that photo, except for the two EMTs/FBI agents acting as EMTs. If you'll notice, the covered "shape" which is moved to the helicopter is way too slight of frame and flat, under the sheet. A balled up sheet or two is explainable, a mannequin or dummy of some kind is way too complicated to make disappear, particularly in such tight quarters, on TV with the world watching. :roll:
Likewise with MJ or a substitute. TOO much of a risk in such tight maneuvering room. It is not a parlor trick, there is way too much at risk for this to go wrong and be exposed in the first HOUR of the hoax :!:  :!:  :!:  I posted all this before, anyway, as well. ANY life sized dummy would have been impossible to get rid of, with all eyes watching that little bit of area around the ambulance. That's all, my two cents. :|


If you are so certain in your theory that there was no body at all, in ambulance and in helicopter. Do you have certain theory who's body was observed & autopsy out there?

@ Scorpionchik:

No clue whose actual body, of if there even was any real autopsy, but the Autopsy Report we were shown has so many holes in it, probably it is portions of pages found in a dumpster, from multiple strangers' autopsies, which were supposed to be shredded. Here is MY "autopsy report" (report on the bogus autopsy), if you are interested:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5676&start=500#p238724 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5676&start=500#p238724)

Once I realized this AR was bogus, I realized it had nothing to do with the body of LIVING MJ. And...it doesn't HAVE to be any body, actually ;) . It is fiction, I'm pretty certain, from the twisted  8-) mind of Someone who pulled our legs all these years about not ;)  liking horror movies, "they're too scary!".  :lol:  :lol:

Who woulda thunk :idea: sweet, gentle, cuddly Michael Jackson would write

the most
spine-tingling,
nail-biting,
tear-jerking,
interactive

THRILLER of ALL Time
:!:  :!:

The "Autopsy Report" was just a device to drive some portion of the Hoax, and  :D make it scarier, earlier in 2010, which MJ knew wouldn't SERIOUSLY fool his fans, because of all the little things we "know" about him, which were not even mentioned in the details of this!  

I don't think it is in any way, a real autopsy of any one, really, so I am done with it. If it is discovered to be pertinent in any other way, I am open to revisit, but I do know the AR subject is NOT Michael Jackson.  :!:  :!:  :!:


:D  :D  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 14, 2011, 11:14:19 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Scorpionchik has a point with the transport of the body in the plane since it could be delayed for whatever reason. Not likely, but possible. There is still the option that the assisted suicide took place at Carolwood Drive though, but so far i have had no reply to my question if it's possible to die in another state where it's not (yet) legal.

Analysis of California’s Assisted Suicide Proposal
“COMPASSIONATE CHOICES ACT” (AB 374)

Update (6/7/07): AB 374 failed to get through the Assembly. The bill is “shelved,” meaning it cannot be brought up again until January 2008.

On 2/15/07, Assemblywoman Patty Berg, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine (D-Van Nuys) and Speaker of the Assembly Fabian Nunez introduced the latest assisted suicide bill, the 2007 “California Compassionate Choices Act” (AB 374). The bill, patterned after Oregon’s assisted-suicide law, contains the same provisions as AB 651 that failed in 2006.

On 3/27/07, the bill passed the Assembly Judiciary Committee in a 7-3 vote and, on 5/31/07, it passed the Assembly Appropriations Committee 10-5. Assisted-suicide advocates scheduled it for a full Assembly vote on 6/6/07, later delaying the vote for a day when they realized they did not have sufficient support. The necessary support to pass the measure did not materialize and the bill was shelved on 6/7/07.
[/u]

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/si ... -analysis/ (http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/california-analysis/)

Yes, that was never my point. I KNOW it's illegal in California, but I want to know if a patient from Washington for exaple, can choose WHERE he wants to self-administer the drugs, OUTside the state where it is legal, but being a Washington resident. No doctor has to be there on the day itself, so that means he can administer it wherever he wants. The doctor did everything according the law, and he doesn't have to be at his patient's side, so he can't help it if he flies to Cali. And the patient himself will be dead and can't be charged either. So my guess is that he could very well have commited assisted suicide at Carolwood Drive.

@bec, I have seen your arguments and I replied to them as well, if I haven't missed any. So far I'm not yet convinced, so the real body theory is not yet debunked for me.


It is legal in CA. See  my edited post above & link  http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76713 (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76713)

That's a different situation. That's removing a feeding tube. Death is slow and timing is unpredictable. Can take hours, can take days.

I reread my blog from 2009 and early 2010. I'm sticking with my research and my gut in this one. There was no dead body used in the course of this hoax. If I'm wrong then I've been wrong about a lot of things along the way, but the record shows that's not been the case. If I'm wrong then all laughs on me. I don't think I'm wrong.

bec, no one is SAYING you are wrong. I simply don't know, nor does anyone here. If we do not know for sure, we need to look at every option and dissect every little detail. Ever seen Twelve Angry Men?

I started with the corpse, made a theory and would like it seen debunked before I throw it in the trash can and move on with option two. But I really haven't seen strong arguments against it, at least not yet.

But why so complicated? All options are complicated. They could have chosen another time of death, like 1:11 pm or something. Fits into the numerology and in that case they wouldn't even have to bother about dummies or corpses or whatever. Simply make a fake 911 call at 12:21 pm, EMT's (in the know) arrive at the house. Pretend to work on him and Murray calls it at 1:11 pm. No one in the house has to know either, they weren't allowed upstairs so they could have the coroner pick up a bodybag filled with stuffed animals. In that case you skip the hospital, the ambulance ride and the flight to the morgue. They chose not to do that, which tells me that the ambulance ride, UCLA and helicopter flight (aka ambulance picture, time of death 2:26 and moving body under sheet) were important. Why?

TS? Can I buy a vowel? :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 14, 2011, 11:36:25 PM
You already know why, Souza. Go with your first instinct, it's right ------->because it's a movie.

We've put in the hours of research, the all-nighters. We know the answers we just don't have the confidence to stand behind them.

I have looked at over analyzations for too long. We have been talking about this for literally, years. I think the evidence for no body is solid. You disagree. Who decides who's right?

Ps. I've never seen 12 Angry Men. Am I acting like 12 angry men?  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: tylerjo608 on April 14, 2011, 11:38:36 PM
Bec.....I agree....no body.  The possibilities of something not working according to plans, I think, is too great.  And the possible backlash (after the bam) from the public, including fans, could be significant.  I don't think Micheal would risk that.

With some strategic staging, diversions and confusion, he could pull it off and PROVE to the lame investigators, the media and the public that he could create the illusion of "his death" without any death! That's challenging, creative and a lot safer.  Thriller II anyone?????
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 14, 2011, 11:45:55 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
The "no one in the ambulance" theory was too risky, there were too many people there, I don't think Michael could have fooled them all.

The dummy theory means that they were all in, EMTs, UCLA, coroners - quite a long chaine, don't you think?

I still think there was a body or a double/twin who died that day.

A double would actually look like MJ, and according to the EMT's they transported a 'sick old frail man'.

If it is not dummy, double would look like MJ, then another option to fit "old frail man" is romanian cancer patient I put some time ago article about, since cancer can made person look old, and that man was living at MJ house for some time I guess.

How on earth they thought of this so soon after his death? I mean of this theory about a romanian cancer pacient who died instead? First of all, why would they invent such a story? Second, why romanian :? Why not polish or russian or albanian?!

Stories like this one makes me wonder what if.....what if there's some truth in it?
Just like I don't understand how a person can pretend it's Michael on the net, I don't understand how a person can create such stories out of nothing.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mdc on April 14, 2011, 11:53:48 PM
The only thing I don't like about the no body scenario is the court case. If you believe the court case is real then a dummy or no body means the paramedics and others who have testified perjured themselves in a court of law.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 12:03:19 AM
Quote from: "Its her"
No real dead body. It is sick, wrong and illegal. The FBI isn't above the law. There is a word for people who act as if they are above the law. We call them criminals.

It's sick, wrong and illegal according to our human limited mind.
If we admit God has something to do with it, and I honestly believe Michael couldn't have done anything without His help, not only the hoax, but also everything in his life and career, we must aknowledge that what;s impossible or immoral for men is possible and moral for God.
See the Bible before judging what's sick or what's not, what's illegal or what's not.

I can't give the exact chapter of the Bible where I was reading a few years ago something that blew my mind and I couldn't believe it. It was about a man who was under God's protection - sorry I don't remember who he was - and who was advised by God himself how to DECEIVE his enemies, using some tricks that looked SO IMMORAL to me at that time. I know I was thinking for a long time HOW COULD GOD HAVE TOLD HIM TO USE SUCH A DIRTY TRICK?
But God's ways are not our ways, we judge by human standards but God makes His own rules, we like it or not.

Humans couldn't ever agree on what's right or wrong, from the beggining to nowadays.
Everything is possible or moral to God, even when a little child dies of cancer. Is this immoral to you? Well, looks like God is thinking the opposite.
Sorry, but I'm just tired to read how sick it is to use a dead body.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 15, 2011, 12:03:52 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
How on earth they thought of this so soon after his death? I mean of this theory about a romanian cancer pacient who died instead? First of all, why would they invent such a story? Second, why romanian :? Why not polish or russian or albanian?!

Remember Bucharest?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 12:05:40 AM
Quote from: "Grace"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
How on earth they thought of this so soon after his death? I mean of this theory about a romanian cancer pacient who died instead? First of all, why would they invent such a story? Second, why romanian :? Why not polish or russian or albanian?!

Remember Bukarest?

What do you mean  :? ?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 15, 2011, 12:23:02 AM
Here Gina source about romanian man. I forgot why was romanian, you need to read.  Just another version. Iam not saying it is100% true story. I know nothing any more. I need rest.

Dimitrie Draghicescu--the Dead Jackson
After fully 3 years of plastic surgery and training, Dimitrie could easily pass for a live Jackson, not to mention a dead one. But unlike the mighty Michael, Dimitrie did die. Dimitrie, not Jackson, was the one whisked to the hospital. Did you not wonder why the man who phoned 911 did not say "Michael Jackson" was the victim? It was not to avoid publicity but to insure that, should the 911 calls be analyzed by voice experts and electronic analyzers, no one could detect the stress from the caller's blatant falsehood.

Dimitrie agreed to die in Michael's place only because he had a terminal illness, and because Jackson had promised a generous reward to his family. And had Dimitrie refused, our Order would have revealed the Draghicescu family secret that had brought them to the attention of Illuminus Theo in the late 1700s (we too are familiar with the gold carrot-iron stick argument).

http://illuminustheo.blogspot.com/2009/ ... -died.html (http://illuminustheo.blogspot.com/2009/07/michael-jackson-is-not-dead-so-who-died.html)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 12:24:44 AM
Quote from: "mdc"
The only thing I don't like about the no body scenario is the court case. If you believe the court case is real then a dummy or no body means the paramedics and others who have testified perjured themselves in a court of law.

Isn't this so IMMORAL and SICK  :lol: ?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 15, 2011, 12:35:35 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Its her"
No real dead body. It is sick, wrong and illegal. The FBI isn't above the law. There is a word for people who act as if they are above the law. We call them criminals.

It's sick, wrong and illegal according to our human limited mind.
If we admit God has something to do with it, and I honestly believe Michael couldn't have done anything without His help, not only the hoax, but also everything in his life and career, we must aknowledge that what;s impossible or immoral for men is possible and moral for God.
See the Bible before judging what's sick or what's not, what's illegal or what's not.

I can't give the exact chapter of the Bible where I was reading a few years ago something that blew my mind and I couldn't believe it. It was about a man who was under God's protection - sorry I don't remember who he was - and who was advised by God himself how to DECEIVE his enemies, using some tricks that looked SO IMMORAL to me at that time. I know I was thinking for a long time HOW COULD GOD HAVE TOLD HIM TO USE SUCH A DIRTY TRICK?
But God's ways are not our ways, we judge by human standards but God makes His own rules, we like it or not.

Humans couldn't ever agree on what's right or wrong, from the beggining to nowadays.
Everything is possible or moral to God, even when a little child dies of cancer. Is this immoral to you? Well, looks like God is thinking the opposite.
Sorry, but I'm just tired to read how sick it is to use a dead body.

I don't believe in God. Read past the sick part Gina and you'll get to the theory.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 15, 2011, 12:36:15 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "mdc"
The only thing I don't like about the no body scenario is the court case. If you believe the court case is real then a dummy or no body means the paramedics and others who have testified perjured themselves in a court of law.

Isn't this so IMMORAL and SICK  :lol: ?

No because court is fake  :idea:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 15, 2011, 12:41:02 AM
Well, after reading everyones posts and valid points, I still am on the fence...

But I found this very interesting article, when searching about Ben Evenstad, and I couldn't believe what I saw......

Maybe the red car is the clue.....this whole time, we have been wondering has it been photoshopped into the picture to look more realistic...

Prince's has come a long way from the days when masks shrouded his face from the world's view. His father never took Prince or his siblings on typical kiddie outings. There were no trips to popular children's restaurants or other children's birthday parties.

"He left the house one time in a red Toyota Prius. And they drove around for about four hours. Michael and the kids never got out of the car once. The bodyguard would pick up the ice cream or the pizza and then put it inside the car," said Ben Evenstad, a photographer and the head of National Photo Group.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MichaelJackso ... 396&page=2 (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MichaelJackson/story?id=8215396&page=2)


So does the read car belong to Michael???
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yambo3003 on April 15, 2011, 12:43:18 AM
This is what I think. If the AR is fake, why would they need a real corpse? Just to fool the EMT's? Nah! Just because they said the "spiritless" patient looked old and frail and didn't recognize to be MJ, doesn't mean is the truth. As far as I know you can say anything scripted in a film. There are no "oaths" in films, it's a screenplay. I say there was no body at all. Of course I can't prove any of this but is what I feel. What's the difference if the EMT's are "in on it"? What? Three to four guys? Probably the EMT's are FBI agents posing as EMT's and posing as actors. Maybe Marlon was the ambulance driver.  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 01:00:04 AM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Here Gina source about romanian man. I forgot why was romanian, you need to read.  Just another version. Iam not saying it is100% true story. I know nothing any more. I need rest.

Dimitrie Draghicescu--the Dead Jackson
After fully 3 years of plastic surgery and training, Dimitrie could easily pass for a live Jackson, not to mention a dead one. But unlike the mighty Michael, Dimitrie did die. Dimitrie, not Jackson, was the one whisked to the hospital. Did you not wonder why the man who phoned 911 did not say "Michael Jackson" was the victim? It was not to avoid publicity but to insure that, should the 911 calls be analyzed by voice experts and electronic analyzers, no one could detect the stress from the caller's blatant falsehood.

Dimitrie agreed to die in Michael's place only because he had a terminal illness, and because Jackson had promised a generous reward to his family. And had Dimitrie refused, our Order would have revealed the Draghicescu family secret that had brought them to the attention of Illuminus Theo in the late 1700s (we too are familiar with the gold carrot-iron stick argument).

http://illuminustheo.blogspot.com/2009/ ... -died.html (http://illuminustheo.blogspot.com/2009/07/michael-jackson-is-not-dead-so-who-died.html)

Yes I was reading this before. Michael a vampire? Well, I may believe many crap but this one .......
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 01:01:05 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "mdc"
The only thing I don't like about the no body scenario is the court case. If you believe the court case is real then a dummy or no body means the paramedics and others who have testified perjured themselves in a court of law.

Isn't this so IMMORAL and SICK  :lol: ?

No because court is fake  :idea:

I don't think the court is fake, if the judge is a real judge.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 01:03:39 AM
Quote from: "bec"

I don't believe in God. Read past the sick part Gina and you'll get to the theory.

Well, after posting I've realised that there are atheists among us, sorry, the post in this case was not meant for them.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 01:06:16 AM
Well maybe there was no body, how should I know if there was or not?

But what was the scenario in this case?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 01:09:04 AM
Folks seriously for one minute really think about this....

IF, and the million dollar question still is, IF the FBI for whatever reason deemed that helping, cooperating and participating this hoax, was deemed necessary, IT WOULD HAPPEN.  And exactly how they wanted it to.

Dummies,doubles,corpses,photoshopped pic, testimonies, Fire, Police, UCLA, Coroners and all the endless and pointless theories or ways they are involved mean nothing.  THIS IS THE FBI GUYS.  FBI

I realize the whole point to the recent TS threads are to investigate and think about stuff we missed or reasoning behind it along the way.

However, the signs point to the FBI's involvement as it seems more unlikely each day they couldn't not be involved.  Again, THIS IS THE FBI.

They can erase,remove and manipulate ANYTHING they want.  Whenever they want.  To whoever they want.  If the FBI wanted you "removed", it would happen.  You would have never existed in any document, picture or video.  You were never born and you never died.  The only people that would claim that you were ever even born would be your parents who would be quickly either be removed themselves or put in a funny farm and never heard or seen from again.  This is the FBI.  

MJ wasn't in the pic.  He never went to UCLA. Or the helicopter, or the van.  WHY?  3 letters...FBI

Whatever showed up at UCLA was quickly moved to a pre-determined area, with pre-determined staff, with pre-determined accounts and "stories" of the events that WOULD follow.

"Mr or Mrs. So and So, you saw this, and you will say this, you will document this, and you WILL do everything we tell you to do.  If you fail to comply in anyway or endanger this plan or outcome of it, it will be deemed a threat to National Security and action WILL be taken against you.  Do you understand"?

You have no choice, no rights nor any free will when you are dealing with the FBI.  You say "Yes sir".  Period.  Or you WILL be removed.

So it does not matter if the person involved lies in court.  They own it.  It does not matter if you disagree, because they own you too.  And most likely would not have been choosen to participate if the FBI deemed or felt you would not comply.

So ASSUMING the FBI is in on this hoax, there are no boundaries or limits to what would or could be achieved.  PERIOD.

MJ died that day for whatever reason.  You will not prove otherwise unless it is according to the plan.  Which rhymes with.........

BAM!  

I have stated in previous threads my opinions concerning the timing of this hopeful event.  So if BAM is a part of the plan, then MJ's death served it's purpose and will happen.

Again, as previously stated,  the probability that MJ will have the worlds attention again with the biggest stage and everyone watching is the court date/dates.  MJ "played" along, recieved his"requests"(numerology,method and final outcome) and gave to the FBI whatever it was they were after.  Meanwhile, "justice" was served and in return MJ will have the "stage" to deliver whatever message that he wishes to convey and the alibi as to why it had to be done this way.

FBI--FBI--FBI.....IF they were invoved it WILL happen.  Given the pure size and scope of this hoax, how could they not be?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 01:31:59 AM
Oh and....

Honestly, if the FBI was not involved I do not beLIEve MJ had the resources or ability to pull this off.

And IF that IS the case, then I welcome all of you the worldest largest club of Grief/Mourning and Denial.

In 1977, this club was formed and we are now honorary members!

Rest in Peace to both Kings, you will and are missed.

But, the camera is still rolling......................
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 15, 2011, 01:51:59 AM
I am not addressing this post to anyone in particular but I am going to address the issue of a corpse/cadaver being used in this hoax. First off do any of you know the history of cadavers on science/medical research? The medical advancements made due to the use of cadavers is incredible. The things medical personnel have learned from the use of cadavers would not have been possible any other way. :ugeek:

I am very grateful to those cadavers who helped to teach my trauma surgeon how to do life saving operations when I almost died in 2005. I am sure if any of you have ever been in a life or death situation and had to go under for surgery to save your life you may feel a little different.
8-)

Medicine: Cadavers Monday, Mar. 29, 1937
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -1,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,757513-1,00.html)

Next I want to address the history of cadavers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver) and how they have been used/obtained over the years and the cadavers that were chosen. Some of them were from mental hospitals, some from the prisons, some from grave robberies, some from unclaimed, unidentified, transient, and from families who may have decided to donate. There has been a huge amount of progress to a more respectable way of getting cadavers. :ugeek:

There is also the issue of what to do with the bodies/cadavers that are at the coroner's that have not been claimed, indentified or families who can not afford to pick up their loved one. I have come across many articles that deal with that issue. I found a very interesting article in which Craig Harvey explains the increase of bodies being at the coroner's and what the end result is when they get overloaded. Below is an excerpt.

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/12 ... e-morgue12 (http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/12/local/me-morgue12)
Unclaimed Bodies Crowd the L.A. County Morgue
The lack of refrigerated storage space is forcing staffers to temporarily move corpses into halls.

Quote
May 12, 2006|Hector Becerra | By Hector Becerra Times Staff Writer
The Los Angeles County morgue is experiencing unprecedented overcrowding this year, prompting officials to stack bodies and to move them out of refrigerated crypts and into hallways for periods of time.

The morgue building is designed to hold 300 to 350 bodies, but at last count 415 bodies were being stored there, according to Craig Harvey, a spokesman for the coroner's office. At one point a few months ago, there were 447 bodies, the highest number of corpses that Harvey has seen in his 18 years with the agency.

"The coroner was never intended to be the mortuary of last resort," Harvey said. "But that's kind of what we've become.... Hallways become a parking lot where bodies are put until we get those we want out."

Population growth, illegal immigration, familial estrangement and poverty may be factors in the increase in the number of bodies, officials said.

"One of the things we've always tried to do is give families back a body," Harvey said. "But when we're looking for families, we find that today we're not always dealing with the Ozzie-and-Harriet close-knit families. Families are often estranged."
Some of the unidentified or unclaimed bodies are probably those of immigrants who came to this country but have no nearby loved ones. Others are homeless or are estranged from their families, officials said.

In some cases, family members cannot afford to pay even for cremation or refuse to pay for the funeral."We've had scenarios where a family is interested in the bank account and the estate, and that's it," Harvey said. "They don't care what happens to the body. They won't even take out of the estate to pay for the funeral expenses."

In the 1980s, it was unusual to have more than 250 bodies at the facility. In the 1990s, that number rose to about 300. In the past, coroner's officials could count on spikes in the number of stored bodies, which were then followed by quick declines, Harvey said.
"That's not happening anymore," Harvey said. "We thought this was just a temporary thing, but it's not going back down. It's staying static."

On Jan. 1, the coroner had 444 stored bodies. Harvey said he had expected that number to drop significantly after the holidays. But eight days later, the number declined by only 25. Harvey said the most obvious solution was to send bodies more quickly to the county crematorium, which is run by the County-USC Medical Center. Some bodies have been at the morgue for nine months, he said.
Then theres the issue of decomp and how the process is slowed down once the body is refrigerated. Yes this is standard for the coroner to do. They refrigerate the body. This method allows for the cadaver to be used for periods of 10 hours at a time for study/research.  http://www.sccvote.org/SCC/docs/Public% ... ent%20(DEP (http://www.sccvote.org/SCC/docs/Public%20Health%20Department%20(DEP))/attachments/APC-HSC%20Ch2%20Mass%20Fatality%20Considerations.pdf
Quote
Body decomposition slows once remains are placed in cold storage (between 37–42 degrees Fahrenheit). Bodies can be stored for up to 6 months in refrigerated storage, which may provide Medical Examiner/Coroner and funeral directors enough time to process all bodies in accordance with jurisdictional standards and traditional public expectations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20586093 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20586093)
Quote
The demand for laboratory-based teaching and training is increasing worldwide as medical training and education confront the pressures of shorter training time and rising costs. This article presents a cost-effective perfusion technique that extends the useful life of fresh tissue. Refrigerated cadavers are preserved in their natural state for up to 45 days with a daily working period of ten hours. Tissues maintain their color and natural consistency throughout this period. This new process for preservation of tissue opens the door to improved surgical training and to numerous research opportunities.
I do not see what the big issue is over a (method) of using an unclaimed/unidentified/donated body/cadaver(s) in this hoax. The alternative for one of these options of the bodies/cadavers is county cremation, and the cremation of a loved one who's family can not afford to get the body and has requested cremation. There is also a fee to get the ashes. Excerpt below.  8-)

The alternate for one of these unclaimed/unidentified/donated body/cadaver(s) is to help in a sting operation to bust bad people and the person/body gets to do a great service for humanity. I find that is more of a humane way for the bodies to go out than to be cremated because no one wants your remains. I have no clue what has happened to the bodies that were used after the fact but if you all believe Michael cares a great deal for humanity; than I am sure the person was treated with the upmost respect.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/21 ... nclaimed21 (http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/21/local/me-unclaimed21)
More bodies go unclaimed as families can't afford funeral costs
The weak economy is taking its toll, with an increasing number of bodies in Los Angeles County being cremated at taxpayers' expense.

Quote
July 21, 2009|
Molly Hennessy-Fiske
The poor economy is taking a toll even on the dead, with an increasing number of bodies in Los Angeles County going unclaimed by families who cannot afford to bury or cremate their loved ones.

At the county coroner's office -- which handles homicides and other suspicious deaths -- 36% more cremations were done at taxpayers' expense in the last fiscal year over the previous year, from 525 to 712.The county morgue, which is responsible for the indigent and others who go unclaimed, saw a 25% increase in cremations in the first half of this year over the same period a year ago, rising to 680 from 545.

The demands on the county crematorium have been so high that earlier this year, officials there stopped accepting bodies from the coroner. The coroner's office since has contracted with two private crematories for $135,000 to handle the overflow.

"It's a pretty dramatic increase," said Lt. David Smith, a coroner's investigator. "The families just tell us flat-out they don't have the money to do a funeral."

Once the county cremates an unclaimed body -- typically about a month after death -- next of kin can pay the coroner $352 to receive the ashes. The fee for claiming ashes from the morgue is $466. Christopher Agosta's ashes are among those waiting.

Last month, the coroner called his sister, Tarnya Baker, 41, of Amesbury, Mass., to notify her that Agosta, 43, of West Hollywood, had shot himself in the head. Although Baker was her brother's next of kin, they had not spoken since he left Massachusetts for California 15 years ago. Only after he died did she learn that he was in debt. He shot himself as sheriff's officials attempted to evict him. He left a note giving his possessions to the local AIDS clinic.

Baker said she wants to claim his ashes, but she and her husband have two children and a struggling glass-glazing business. During the last two years, they have had to lay off their two employees. "I know that I can't afford to handle all this," Baker said. "I can't afford to fly out there and ask questions."

Coroners and funeral directors around the country say they are seeing the same trend as cash-strapped families cope with funeral costs. Just claiming a body from the L.A. County coroner costs $200. Once a body is claimed, private cremations usually run close to $1,000, Smith said. Funeral homes charge an average of $7,300 to transport and bury a body in a simple grave, according to the National Funeral Home Directors Assn.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 15, 2011, 02:22:46 AM
@ Im_convinced, below is taken from Sinderella's summary of Day 3 of the prelim:

viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17067#p293555 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17067#p293555)

Witness #7—Paramedic Martin Blount

Firefighter 20 years. Paramedic 11 years. Working as a paramedic on June 25th, 2009. He was the driver on this call. Once on the property, he was directed in the house and up the stairs.
When he first saw the patient, he was not on the floor; he was in the bed.
Blount identifies the defendant, who identified himself as the patient’s personal physician. Dr. Murray was the one who opened the door and requested help. He noticed that Dr. Murray was sweating profusely. Blount clarifies that when he entered the room, the patient was on the floor. Testifies that he noticed an IV stand in the room. The patient was moved to a better area of the room.
Explains why he was last person in the room. As the driver, he got the gurney out of the back of the ambulance and other gear. His role, as driver, is to be available to the patient, so he positions himself at the patient’s head. He did hear Dr. Murray being asked if the patient had been given any drugs and Dr. Murray said no. Dr. Murray explained that the reason there was an IV was because the patient had been dehydrated.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 15, 2011, 02:29:00 AM
Here's one dummy that would be easy to dispose of in an ambulance/hospital setting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resusci_Anne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resusci_Anne)

Resusci Anne
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Resusci Anne

Resusci Anne, also known as Rescue Anne, Resusci Annie or CPR Annie, is a training mannequin used for teaching cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) to both emergency workers and members of the general public. Resusci Anne was developed by Norwegian toy maker Åsmund Laerdal, based on the research of Peter Safar and James Elam, and was first introduced in 1960. The mannequin is designed to accurately simulate the human respiratory system and external body landmarks in order to facilitate training.

Since its original introduction, several different versions of Resusci Anne have also been introduced, including versions with computer monitoring, and versions that simulate other emergency medical conditions, such as severe wounds and trauma.

Trainees using the original Resusci Anne were expected to approach the mannequin. After receiving no response, the trainees then proceeded to administer CPR to the mannequin. This system was intended to teach trainees that not all victims require CPR—if a victim can respond when asked if he/she is okay, the victim does not need CPR.

The distinctive face of Resusci Anne was based on L'Inconnue de la Seine, the death mask of an unidentified young woman reputedly drowned in the Seine River around the late 1880s.[1]

Annie are you ok, Annie are you ok, are you ok Annie??!!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 15, 2011, 02:36:46 AM
Gee these TS re-directs can get really full on  :lol:  :lol:

But I have had a change of heart after reading all of these fantastic posts and information, and I too now believe anything is possible when the FBI/government  are involved.

Drs, nurses, coroners, EMT etc, must do what they are told to do...no questions asked.

Seems too simple, doesn't it.  Well the government control us and everything we do !!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 15, 2011, 02:44:00 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Does anyone know how many people were working on the body at UCLA?

Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
On the other side here is another objection. I read in the preliminary hearing transcripts that not only Dr. Cooper was testified but also Dr. Nuygen (hope the spelling is correct) She said that she was called to the room (where "MJ" was) at 1:35, she also stated that there were 5-6 people in the room, and she mentioned another doctor Dr. Cruz who operated balloon pump. So here we have at least 3 names + CM in that room.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 15, 2011, 02:54:45 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Gee these TS re-directs can get really full on  :lol:  :lol:

But I have had a change of heart after reading all of these fantastic posts and information, and I too now believe anything is possible when the FBI/government  are involved.

Drs, nurses, coroners, EMT etc, must do what they are told to do...no questions asked.

Seems too simple, doesn't it.  Well the government control us and everything we do !!

Yes i think we made it way too complicated :lol:  :lol:  :lol: FBI don't have to explain to Drs, nurses, coroners, EMT's and whoever is in on it WHY they have to do WHAT FBI told them to do. FBI can use their power as long as by the end of the operation they will have prove that this was done for people of America and even better if it was done for people of the World  :D
So if by the end of this HOAX they will bring down corrupted members of government and members of public corruption then no one can say that FBI did something against the law :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 03:12:27 AM
Im not trying to prove I am right or anyone else is wrong.  But as read this and other threads that TS started, I am however finding it kinda funny now.  The point was/is to look at things different and that's ok, but let me interpet what I ahve observed in this thread in a different way.

I am MJ.  The most recognize person on the earth.  I want to pull off the greatest show ever and prove a point to the world.  I have no outside help except for my own resources and connections.  MY goal is to have as few people possible know the truth while making me "dying" look real.

So first i have set up tons of numerology previously as to let my beLIEvers know this is all a scam.  Only they will figure it out and know why I am doing this.

We will prepare a picture of me dying in a ambulance, perhaps leave some clues behind and release them to the press on the day I die.  We can shop it and make it look real and everyone will beLIEve it.

So on the day I die, I get a dead or almost dead person who looks like me to die in my house with a cardiologist present.  We will call 911 at the precise time and have a trained paramedic team come and try to revive me.  I have my doctor here so he can overide every descision the paramedic make.  The doctor will take his time before deciding to take my body to the hospital for further attempts to revive.  Now, word is getting out about my condition and press and fans will be gathering outside.  We will leave slowly so the picture we made can have an orgin that makes it look real.  But lets have the doc ride in the car behind on the way.

We will arrive at hospital where more fans and press are gathering.  News crews and helicopters will be everywhere as well as the paparatzzi.  I wont go to the hospital as  want to watch this on TV.  Next, we will bring my body into level 4 ER with dozens of most trained and knowledgable medical personel in the state and allow them to work on my dead body and attempt to revive me, which of course they wont be able to.  Because this body looks just like me the won't know the difference, even tho I having been making a movie of my tour that shows what I look like just a couple days before I die.  Then we will request my brother announces my death.

So far we have fooled paramedics, hospital staff and the world it is really me.  Then they will parade my body to a helicopter and fly it to the coroners, even tho protocol is it to be driven.  The hospital won't even put my body in the correct colored bag.  We will land at coroners and again parade my dead body to the press and world for it to be autopsied.

Now we fool the coroner that it is really me because we paid top dollar for this body.  Doesn't matter that he will have access to my dental records, fingerprints or even my footprints from my birth certificate.  This body will fool the most trained coroners.  We will plant some drugs in the body to make that the cause of death.  Wow, this plan is so great, noone will ever find out!

This where we are right now in this pretrial prep.  And OMG people are you serious!  You really think all this would happen and noone figure it out?  And with no Gov. help?  If you really can honestly sit there and say it is plausible, God bless you.  Cause it AIN"T happening.  This would be the most ridiculous plan ever created imo.  

Like I said this is my interpetation of what I have read.  Crazy.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 15, 2011, 03:19:03 AM
There ARE some absolutes on Earth, no figuring required. Just look.

Sickness, especially of children IS immoral (In ANY rational person's book).

It is not the work of God. EVER. Look again.

I have reason to believe:

On earth there is: 1) God, 2) right-standing angels, 3) fallen angels, and, 4) Man. The planet was given to Man. Everything wrong with Earth has to do with the infestation of stiff-necked, greedy, out of control, hell-bent, Man. E v e r y t h i n g.

Fallen angels were stripped of their powers; ALL they can do here is LIE to folk (according to the Bible, and personal experience, but I won't be offended if you take it or leave it--just explaining my view. :) ).

Contrary to wordly Double-Speak blame-placers, God is LOVE 8-) , not psychotic, OR, schizophrenic. Why would billions of intelligent, loving, responsible people worldwide--why would a genius like MJ-- study to be like Jesus, if God were unpredictably, dangerously, unstable, harming kids???

I thought we believed the same, G. :?   I'm sorry if something I said upset you. This is a very definitely HOAXED death. The death is FAKE. No one is dead. MJ is every bit alive.

Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 15, 2011, 03:25:15 AM
Just some comments.
Im_convincedMJalive, remember this TMZ story about the body outside the Murray's courthouse? Could be they are hinting at the same thing, the use of an unwanted corpse.
http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/25/dr-conrad ... raignment/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/25/dr-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-dead-body-homeless-person-la-county-suprior-court-house-arraignment/)

However like Andrea said, TS seems to wanting us to debunk the corpse option. Then the article she posted,
Quote
Shakira -- NOBODY Stole My Jewelry!
4/14/2011 11:30 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
http://www.tmz.com/2011/04/14/shakira-r (http://www.tmz.com/2011/04/14/shakira-r) ... rt-mexico/
could be hinting at using no body.

Quote
by looking4truth » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:07 pm
 2) In the photo of the body being pushed in the hospital, there is really no crowd around and there are a few photos. Plus, there is no video of this scene, only photos. (Unless I missed something. Please let me know if I did.) With this in mind, it would be easier to stage the photos and even use a dummy that is mechanically-controlled to make it look like MJ was sitting up on the stretcher. It may sound far-fetch but it is possible.

I think they recreated the scenario on June 25th and this time taped it and had the same people that were involved with the staged photo shoot. Again, I think a dummy was used on this day. No need to have a real body if they are involved with the photoshoot.
I said exactly that a couple of my posts back!

Its Her, I agree the AR was bogus, but I also think it was skilfully fabricated with all the tabloid myths about MJ included so people would think it was him, plus a few truths.  Things like bald, tatooed eye-liner and lips, lung disease were false and things like excellent heart and active sperm production were true.

curls, I'm thinking that if most everything is made up, then Blount, Murray and all the others involved have to be very acquainted with the particular story they are to give (even if they are involved with the professional FBI). They have to be consistent with stories the others tell, they have to remember what they already said, and they have to be ready for unexpected questions they might be asked in court or by media. It just seems to me that no body is less visual--less helpful in juggling details in their minds.

My personal favorite is still MJ himself, though TS and others have said it would be too risky, yet at the beginning of this thread he still lists this option as if it is still viable.
Quote
The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?
I have seen no real argument against the MJ himself theory, besides emotion--it's too risky. Well all the options are risky.

As for the FBI, I feel they are only helping MJ, but that MJ is the mastermind behind everything. I think he said how he wanted things to go. He is hands-on with everything. There are dots to connect everywhere with things MJ has taken an interest in and TMZ articles, his lyrics and on and on. This hoax is MJ's hoax first and foremost. Don't give the FBI the credit for his genius and hard work.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 15, 2011, 03:52:52 AM
@AllInGoodTime. You made me laugh  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  not being disrespectful dear believers, but seriously how could the dead body of some other man make things better for the hoax, why will there be less people in on it? I still can't understand, maybe i'm stupid  :? but i still don't get it!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 03:55:12 AM
---I have seen no real argument against the MJ himself theory, besides emotion--it's too risky. Well all the options are risky.

If he did ride the stretcher in, where did he go and when/how did double replace him by the theroy of as "few" people in on it?  So someone is in on it.  And even money wouldn't persuade a doctor to help do this.  And it would take more than one.  In the middle of an ER?  HMMMM

----As for the FBI, I feel they are only helping MJ, but that MJ is the mastermind behind everything. I think he said how he wanted things to go. He is hands-on with everything. There are dots to connect everywhere with things MJ has taken an interest in and TMZ articles, his lyrics and on and on. This hoax is MJ's hoax first and foremost. Don't give the FBI the credit for his genius and hard work.

NO arguement there.  MJ planned this for a long time.  Too many dots.  The FBI probably couldn't pull off the coincidences involved.   Tho considering size, scope and scale, realizing that the amount of resources and power to pull this off, a question begs to be asked.....

What did MJ know/possess/provide the FBI to allow MJ to do this his way?  Down to the last detail?

Hmmmmm....what was so vaulable MJ had that they agreed to go this extent?

Whatever it is, has to be as huge as the hoax itself.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 04:00:48 AM
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
@AllInGoodTime. You made me laugh  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  not being disrespectful dear believers, but seriously how could the dead body of some other man make things better for the hoax, why will there be less people in on it? I still can't understand, maybe i'm stupid  :? but i still don't get it!

And that is the question I ask....it doesn't.  A fake body tends to the theroy only a few people knew as to validate future testimonies.  Like the ambo crew.  To me, a fake body only opens door for error and discovery.  IF the body was fake and the ambo's didnt know it wasn't really MJ then there is 3 less people involved.  And then next UCLA fooled by it and so on.....the theroy being tossed around.  I don't buy it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 04:13:54 AM
Quote from: "Its her"
There ARE some absolutes on Earth, no figuring required. Just look.

Sickness, especially of children IS immoral (In ANY rational person's book).

It is not the work of God. EVER. Look again.


Maybe it is not the work of God but God allows it.

Like with the hoax, we are not in possesion of all the informations to know who's work it is.

I am not upset, please forgive me if I sounded upset, it's just we know so little that maybe we can't see the WHOLE picture of our existence, in fact it's not a "maybe", it's sure we can't see the whole picture so we have to stay open to everything, no matter how "sick " it seems. Remember when Avram (Abraham in english :? ) was asked by God to sacrifice his own son?
He was about to fulfill this SICK request when he was sttoped by God.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 04:18:24 AM
@scorpionchick  I think that story about the romanian man who died of cancer instead of MJ is not true because I recall the AR didn't mention the deceased suffered of cancer or other terminal illness :? If it was true, the authopsy should have revealed he had cancer.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 04:18:58 AM
The reasoning behind a fake body i believe is this..........IF the coroner WAS the only person informed of the hoax,  How do you allow a minimum of 25 people see a dead MJ, believe it was him so that these people do not commit prejury in court when they testify.

Fine, everyone bought into the fake body so they can testify in a trial for murder against a doctor who obviously was in it from the beginning?

So what exactly is Murray being tried for?  And why?  Convict him for a crime that wasn't committed?

Doesn't add up.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 04:24:28 AM
As we can't agree on anything yet, maybe we should consider the alternative that Michael really died that day and the ambulance pic was faked just to cash the money :(
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 15, 2011, 04:31:18 AM
TS, have we worked hard enough to deserve a couple of more puzzle pieces?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 15, 2011, 04:51:37 AM
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Hmmmmm....what was so vaulable MJ had that they agreed to go this extent?

Yeah, that's what I'd like to know as well. It has to be huge, no doubt about it. But what?

As funny as I thought your story was, I am still not convinced that there was 100% certain no real body. I agree that the coroner would definitely not be fooled, he is 100% in. The doctor at UCLA as well. And I agree that the rest could be silenced by the FBI, whatever the situation, but it seems safer to me if they don't KNOW for sure.If you don't know, you can's spill the beans, other than that you can say something seems fishy.

It's hard to explain, I hope someone gets what I mean.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Uranus on April 15, 2011, 05:05:51 AM
I think that people dismiss a major factor in this whole thing... The goverment and the FBI as well, are not trustworthy. They are actually puppets of those in power and they work for their sake and not for the people they are supposed to serve. MJ was a victim of police brutality and I don't think that the FBI files were meant for his protection or at least only for his protection. John Lennon had files in FBI, too... Anyway, whether he knew it about the files or not, he wouldn't be glad to cooperate with the FBI. His song "They don't care about us" is a bit of a proof about his opinion for the goverment. Someone could claim that he cooperated with people from the FBI, who propably dislike it as well, and not with the "official" FBI. Yet, this is difficult to happen in secrecy in the circles of the FBI.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 15, 2011, 05:46:53 AM
Heaven knows this type of thing is not my forte, but after reading everything posted here for the last 12 pages, vascillating between corpse/no corpse and playing each of those scenarios out in my thinking, I'm casting my lot with no body. Nada zip and zilch. FBI involvement lifts the limitations of what is possible to pull off. It does in fact change the whole playing field. In fact, they own the field. As for disecting and extracting the snippets of truth from the media stories we've been presented, our dilema lies in not being able to substantiate fact from journalistic fiction.
So in summation, ambo picture prepared ahead of 'going live on death day'
No medical emergency was transpiring on the 25th because the ambulance leisurely made it's way to UCLA, despite this hospital having an impressive track record for reviving patients who would have once been considered too long gone. No regular, on the job paramedic is going to make that decision to delay getting a human being to the necessary help needed. No matter if the patient in question was John Doe or Michael Jackson. And lets not forget that time of death at that stage had not been called. As for a dummie being used on the 25th, I don't believe trained professional EMT personel could be fooled by such no matter how life like it's appearance.  So I have come to my conclusion that the EMT people are in on the hoax and in probability are also undercover agents. But the ambulance go slow did enable the word to leak and spread like a frenzy and make for some wonderful footage. I'm sure Michael enjoyed watching it from the television in the plane he was on at the time.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 15, 2011, 05:47:28 AM
whoops. hit submit twice :oops:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 06:51:00 AM
Ahhh...why can't I just bake some cookies or go spending my husband's money instead of reading this thread :roll:

anyway.....the alarm that day at UCLA wasn't for nothing, it must have had something to do with MJ, so, UCLA is in...through his representatives, of course. The second reason for why UCLA must be in is that the death was not announced by a doctor, but by Jermain (or is this normal?)

If UCLA is in - they didn't need a body, a dummy was enough or even MJ himself.

If the paramedics were FBI agents, a dummy in the ambulance would do the trick.The real paramedics aren't allowed to speak, but they know the truth, so they are in. It's OK they lie under oath in court. (I guess it's a living hell for them to keep the secret.)

It goes without saying that the coroner can't miss the party, so he's in too.

This looks like everybody knows Michael is alive, yet HE'S STILL DEAD BY THE WAY.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mdc on April 15, 2011, 07:23:01 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Hmmmmm....what was so vaulable MJ had that they agreed to go this extent?

Yeah, that's what I'd like to know as well. It has to be huge, no doubt about it. But what?

As funny as I thought your story was, I am still not convinced that there was 100% certain no real body. I agree that the coroner would definitely not be fooled, he is 100% in. The doctor at UCLA as well. And I agree that the rest could be silenced by the FBI, whatever the situation, but it seems safer to me if they don't KNOW for sure.If you don't know, you can's spill the beans, other than that you can say something seems fishy.

It's hard to explain, I hope someone gets what I mean.

Ok, I'm probably gonna be laughed at here but here is one scenario.

What if the belief that MJ hated to tour was not necessarily the whole truth. What if he didn't tour for other reasons. Let's face it MJ concerts draw thousands of people. That many people in one spot at a concert for someone people either love or hate is a potential target for terrorists and psycho's. His last tour, the History tour, ended in 1997 but he had 2 dates in 1999 for the MJ and Friends concerts. If I'm remembering right these were his last two concerts. Coincidentally enough the Korea date for these concerts was on June 25, 1999. Exactly 10 years prior to the date of his death. The other date in Munich was on June 27. That concert is where the scaffolding fell with him on it- and I still don't think that was an accident. Could have been but I'm just not so sure. Anyway, we know the FBI was aware of threats to MJ and his concerts. Perhaps for the safety of everyone involved he made a deal with the government that he wouldn't tour for a set amount of years and then when he did announce another tour if there were more threats, which I'm sure they knew there would be, they would help him with faking his death and the hoax.

So essentially he traded 10 years of potential concert earnings?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 15, 2011, 07:29:06 AM
I just watched "Breach", this movies was listed on FBI website. This movie is based on the true story, FBI upstart Eric O'Neill enters into a power game with his boss, Robert Hanssen, an agent who was ultimately convicted of selling secrets to the Soviet Union.
I totally loved it :D It's very interesting, if you watch it i think it will help you to understand a little better how FBI is operating. We know that FBI cooperated with movie director + it's based on true story. I think that we can trust it for 95%.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: navibl on April 15, 2011, 08:20:58 AM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.

I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.


Thank you PureLove….I really HATE the word hoax because people always get a picture of a joke or deception.  This is a life saving mission for Michael and the world or the people that will listen.  I know that what Michael is going to bring to us when we hear him again will be so horrific that no one in their right mind will care about it being appropriate to use a dead body, how and who at that point.  We will be so thankfull to God and Michael and that he cared enough all these years to allow God to give him this plan.We will only care about what we can do to save our lives and the lives of those we love.  I have already seen VERY UGLY things going on in this country, and what the Gov is hiding from us that is life threatening and the means they will go to in covering up what they don’t want known. That is why we are here now, to learn what and how he did this, so that we will be beyond that when he speaks to us again.  My biggest concern right now, it that from the view points that I read here, there will be so many that will NOT BELIEVE it is Michael when he returns, they will take up close video shots and try to dissect it with various software and spend so much time trying to disprove it is Michael that they will NEVER hear his message.  This will be very sad.

So my personal opinion is that while I don’t know who or what was in the ambulance just yet, I know what was NOT.  And unless Brian Oxman had total leave of his sense on 6/25 and was completely not thinking or speaking clearly and just totally fumbling all over the place, which I doubt, I know that Michael was NOT IN the ambulance on that day. Because Brian said and I quote, “ I got a call uhh just a little bit BEFORE NOON that Michael had been taken FROM the hospital by Randy’s assistant who gave me that call”  I have included the link below with the vid.  If you look at him while he is talking , there are no signs of grief and is almost as if he is working very hard to keep from smiling, however the rest of the statement goes on as if all else is as most believe of Michael being gone.  Here again we have a play on words, done on purpose to show how deeply deception can be interwoven with just a tad of the truth to twist things totally around and make us believe what they want us to.  Just like Jermaine  Airport and Hospital.   You don’t have that many people with that many slipups on words.  


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Izi-tS5Kk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Izi-tS5Kk)

For the non believing it is a perfect scapegoat to say it was a slip and he got the time and wording confused.  As for the use of a dead body being wrong of Michael and totally out of the scope.  That is child’s play compared to what goes on in this world.  I am certain if we believe Michael has a skilled team working with him, they are to ones who devised the details of a body, fake, alive, or ill.  It is not for us to judge if it is appropriate or not.  Why Michael would have been at the hospital earlier that morning would be sheer speculation on anyone’s part and unnecessary.  He had his reasons for whatever he did, some of which we may never know.

If we are to investigate this in reality, we have to climb out of our little politically correct powder puff boxed in way of thinking and look at the reality of what takes place in this world daily. PURE UGLY is what is in front of us, deception from satan. This is what Michael is trying to get us to see.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 15, 2011, 09:19:18 AM
(http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Jackson+Family+Arriving+UCLA+Medical+Center+NBz6pIi3h-Il.jpg)




(http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Jackson+Family+Arriving+UCLA+Medical+Center+JxB28gZe13Ml.jpg)


that in these pictures Katherine and the other woman have a sticker of visitors coming to the hospital, and the car has another sticker for the disabled, who gave them :?:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 09:41:05 AM
I am apologize for my 3 hour rant this morning, I have been up 28 hours now...lol..I think I come up with a better way to explain this and possibly give those losing faith some hope as well.

The very first page of this thread and the first thing at least that gets ur attention is the FBI hat.  Subliminal Clue?  Dont know but fits.

From what I have been reading about the fake body and peoples opinions concerning is this.  The main purpose of the fake was to lessen the actually number of "outsiders" that need to be in on the hoax while giving the opprtuinity to for the people who were/are involved credibility that the body was MJ's and for truthful testimony to be given during the trial.  Fine.

Now.......In order for MJ alone to pull this hoax off, a fake body would be a must.  Alone, this body is really the only way he could attempt to fool everyone involved he was really dead.  Tho flawed, perhaps the paramedics and even the hospital and staff  might have beLIEved it really was him.  He really died.  And they saw it with there own eyes.  At a minimum 25 people would have interacted in some way with the fake body on the 25th.  That to me is 25 ways/reasons the hoax could be discovered before it even really started.  Amazingly, noone figured out it was a fake and it did make it to the coroner.  And that is where it ends.  The coroner would have figured out it was fake and MJ really does not have the power or connections to presuade him to help with his hoax no matter the reason.  So with that in mind,  we know MJ has planned for years in great detail to hoax his death.  Years of thought down the drain in the first hours of the first day.  He could not do this alone and not without help.

Enter FBI>>>Whatever MJ has gotten himself into that would warrant the FBI's help and participation remains to be seen.  As to the great depth of the hoax and the amount of coordination needed from the FBI, as well as the FBI's willingness to accept and agree to the terms/way MJ wanted it, whatever it is must be gigantic.  Thus the reason and the plan is put into action.

The FBI could of "killed" MJ off without a body.  But that is not a good show nor add to the realism or confirm that MJ died.  So the FBI provided a fake body.  3 paramedics, coroner and assistance along with a doctor and 4 staff, were "asked" to take part as a matter of "National Security".  This brings our outside people informed to the hoax to 10.  A controlled group, very possibly choosen and selected for this after careful screening.  So for the show, the wheel the fake body into UCLA, straight to a predetermined area under heavy secruity and privacy.  Each persons role defined, actions, statements planned as instructed to do so.  MJ dies.  The announcement made and to continue to embed that MJ did die, is again wheeled out the copter and off to the coroner.  A real-time drama with actual proof MJ had died broadcast to the public to absorb and accept.  MJ is dead, free and removed.  And mission is accomplished.

However at the same time MJ dies, a new and interesting element is introduced with many implications to the future.  But first,

Now, we have established that the ambo pic was staged and shopped.  This is our first real evidence and first domino.  Why evidence?  It shows us that this was staged and planned.  Now knowing MJ could not do this alone and needed help and recieved it from the FBI.  This to now validates it is fake.  Shows us it was planned and if planned needed help, if needed help the FBI did so.  And the FBI does not fail.  IF they want something to happen it does, the way the want it to.  Executed to a T, again only proving the pic is fake as it was part of a bigger picture.   Thus proof MJ lives.  Which brings us to the plan.  Seems like alot of extra fluff made-for-tv was involved in the hoax.  They were much easier ways to get same result.  MJ could of died of overdose/heart attack at home.  NO TV special, no press, taken to hospital pronounced and perhaps a "real" death photo released to prove he had died.  But that is not what happened.   A set of surreal events transpired before the worlds eyes.  Events which left no doubt that MJ had died.  BUT>>>>

That new element?  AS they loaded MJ into the copter, it was now we are introduced to a man who ran out the back door.  Conrad Murray.  First , let's analyze his role.  Honestly, much like the other fluff in the plan, Murray's part in this is really not needed.  The events the way they played out on the 25th could of happened the same way with or without him. It added some drama.  But having a doctor present throughout the events did not change anything or any way things were planned.  Again, not necessary tho.  Or was it....

Now the hoax was success. MJ dead.  World falls for it.  IF MJ wanted peace/freedom or whatever the reason, he now had it.  Except for the door that was left open for things to come.  Murray.  Basically, he was not needed for this to succeed but yet involved anyway.  And left to be tried for a crime he did not commit.  Most likely convicted.  And yet, this truly makes no sense as why he must take the fall.  But it does....The very momment he is introduced into this, he began to play what I believe was his main purpose.  Now this hoax is not just about MJ but a new focal point in Murray.  He is the distraction, decoy and element to the plan that enables new events to take place.  AS the shock wore off and MJ faded, our man Murray was now front and center.  Followed, photographed,disected his role is now exactly as it was planned.  Just about the time MJ fades from our memories, suddenly Mr. Murray becomes relevant again.  A new development or story surfaces to keep us interested.  But is that all?

If MJ ever returns remains to be seen.  If he does regardless some backlash will occur.  2 years ago he was a laughingstock and mocked, 2 months from now?  OMG Bamsday is here!  MJ reappears from his death, however the backlash is not what one might expect.  He is a hero?  huh?  Our FBI boys inform us the great courage and dedication MJ has shown by sacrificing himself in such a way in order to help our nation do whatever it the heck he got himself into in the first place.  A national alibi.  MJ our hero!

Back to ol' Murray.  The martar, the fallguy, the guy who soon will have the world at center stage.  MJ likes center stage.  Quite comfy there actually.(or not)  Murray has endured and completed what is needed for the "last curtain call".  The trial.  His main purpose.  Which is why is doesn't matter if witnesses tell the truth.  Why stories dont match, and calls seem fake or bodies or whatever else.  I believe the trial won't happen.  Wasn't ever suppose to.  MJ "got away" for good if that was the plan.  But it wasn't, and the door is open waiting.........

So to close MJ must be in some big time stink.  Alot went into this, and can only imagine what may have warranted this kind involvement.  Even if MJ has feelings/issues over the past with FBI etc.  Obviously he had no choice, or he is dead....not.  I need sleep.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 15, 2011, 10:01:44 AM
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
So to close MJ must be in some big time stink.  Alot went into this, and can only imagine what may have warranted this kind involvement.  Even if MJ has feelings/issues over the past with FBI etc.  Obviously he had no choice, or he is dead....not.  I need sleep.

I like your posts and agree with them. For me the only way it can be a hoax is with FBI's participation at all levels. They have the power to get everything and all the necessary evidence. They also can cause people to shut up sorry to become outlaws.
So, things get much easier for Michael to do and for we understand.

TS ... do you not come??

AllInGoodTime, by the way, is it your bedtime?  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 15, 2011, 10:20:49 AM
I returned later, I am now going to the dentist ... to get my dose of anesthesia 8-)  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 15, 2011, 10:28:27 AM
could this be the reason we are all looking for??

I've always believed MJ faked his death because of a terrorist attack and he had help from the Authorities to do it - they are still investigating and are keeping him safe until such time as the threat ceases.


viewtopic.php?f=253&t=4446&hilit=terroist+attack+in+london (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=253&t=4446&hilit=terroist+attack+in+london)


Michael Jackson FBI Files Released; Death Threats, Bizarre Details of Molestation Probe Exposed
December 22nd, 2009 1:40 PM by Free Britney
The FBI has released more than 300 pages of documents relating to Michael Jackson, and while they do not provide new insight into his June 2009 death, the information contained still raises eyebrows, and is just as bizarre as you'd expect.

The formerly classified material includes info regarding his 1993 and 2004 child molestation cases, as well as an extortion case where he was a victim.

Despite an application under the Freedom of Information Act, half his file remains secret. What is available, however, provides no shortage of material.

In 2004, local police in Santa Maria, Calif., requested FBI involvement believing the court proceedings against MJ made for "soft target for terrorism.

"No intelligence indicating a terrorist threat" existed, the FBI said, but the bureau did provide technical and investigative assistance into the case.


Read more celebrity gossip at: http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2009/ ... z1Jbf7cATE (http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2009/12/michael-jackson-fbi-files-released-bizarre-details-exposed/#ixzz1Jbf7cATE)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 15, 2011, 11:45:18 AM
Quote from: "navibl"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.

I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.


Thank you PureLove….I really HATE the word hoax because people always get a picture of a joke or deception.  This is a life saving mission for Michael and the world or the people that will listen.  I know that what Michael is going to bring to us when we hear him again will be so horrific that no one in their right mind will care about it being appropriate to use a dead body, how and who at that point.  We will be so thankfull to God and Michael and that he cared enough all these years to allow God to give him this plan.We will only care about what we can do to save our lives and the lives of those we love.  I have already seen VERY UGLY things going on in this country, and what the Gov is hiding from us that is life threatening and the means they will go to in covering up what they don’t want known. That is why we are here now, to learn what and how he did this, so that we will be beyond that when he speaks to us again.  My biggest concern right now, it that from the view points that I read here, there will be so many that will NOT BELIEVE it is Michael when he returns, they will take up close video shots and try to dissect it with various software and spend so much time trying to disprove it is Michael that they will NEVER hear his message.  This will be very sad.

So my personal opinion is that while I don’t know who or what was in the ambulance just yet, I know what was NOT.  And unless Brian Oxman had total leave of his sense on 6/25 and was completely not thinking or speaking clearly and just totally fumbling all over the place, which I doubt, I know that Michael was NOT IN the ambulance on that day. Because Brian said and I quote, “ I got a call uhh just a little bit BEFORE NOON that Michael had been taken FROM the hospital by Randy’s assistant who gave me that call”  I have included the link below with the vid.  If you look at him while he is talking , there are no signs of grief and is almost as if he is working very hard to keep from smiling, however the rest of the statement goes on as if all else is as most believe of Michael being gone.  Here again we have a play on words, done on purpose to show how deeply deception can be interwoven with just a tad of the truth to twist things totally around and make us believe what they want us to.  Just like Jermaine  Airport and Hospital.   You don’t have that many people with that many slipups on words.  


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Izi-tS5Kk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Izi-tS5Kk)

For the non believing it is a perfect scapegoat to say it was a slip and he got the time and wording confused.  As for the use of a dead body being wrong of Michael and totally out of the scope.  That is child’s play compared to what goes on in this world.  I am certain if we believe Michael has a skilled team working with him, they are to ones who devised the details of a body, fake, alive, or ill.  It is not for us to judge if it is appropriate or not.  Why Michael would have been at the hospital earlier that morning would be sheer speculation on anyone’s part and unnecessary.  He had his reasons for whatever he did, some of which we may never know.

If we are to investigate this in reality, we have to climb out of our little politically correct powder puff boxed in way of thinking and look at the reality of what takes place in this world daily. PURE UGLY is what is in front of us, deception from satan. This is what Michael is trying to get us to see.

Thanks Victoria... It seems those of us leaning toward the dead body theory take this FBI involvement very seriously beyond just Hoax.  This is life & death. The FBI IS involved.  

But I'm wondering if maybe the EMT's were NOT in on it during Live Action Day...
Or just one was; one undercover?  This  =  "Creditabl­e Deniabilit­y" & no Perjury. They simply did their jobs even though the body looked like it had been dead for over an hour, and they didn't recognize who they were working on. They had suspicions, they noted weird things.  :? Does it matter? Do your job; don't question the doctor, circumstances or identity of the person. That's not your business. Perhaps it took so long because someone got to them (FBI) to sign documents forbidding them to disclose what went down that day.  :?:

Quote
TS:
...so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 15, 2011, 11:56:12 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
@scorpionchick  I think that story about the romanian man who died of cancer instead of MJ is not true because I recall the AR didn't mention the deceased suffered of cancer or other terminal illness :? If it was true, the authopsy should have revealed he had cancer.


You are right. But, there is a consideration that autopsy is fake. In this case, even IF that was cancer patient dead instead and coroner is in hoax, they would not  reveal cancer part since it would constitute doubt, cause everyone knew MJ did not have cancer.  On the other hand, I am thinking, then why they need body at all, if autopsy is fake? :?
What a huge mess, right?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 15, 2011, 12:19:18 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
@scorpionchick  I think that story about the romanian man who died of cancer instead of MJ is not true because I recall the AR didn't mention the deceased suffered of cancer or other terminal illness :? If it was true, the authopsy should have revealed he had cancer.


You are right. But, there is a consideration that autopsy is fake. In this case, even IF that was cancer patient dead instead and coroner is in hoax, they would not  reveal cancer part since it would constitute doubt, cause everyone knew MJ did not have cancer.  On the other hand, I am thinking, then why they need body at all, if autopsy is fake? :?
What a huge mess, right?

if it's not Michael Jackson's body who has undergone this autopsy then whose body is it? 'WHO IS IT' :lol:
The one thing we all can agree on is that reading this autopsy report leaves us with more questions than answers.
http://xscapemj.blogspot.com/2010/06/anatomization-of-living-dead-part-5.html
 
I've come to three conclusions:

#1. This Body is NOT Michael Jackson and was NOT a drug addict or unhealthy...still a question of the lung abnormality; ei noises. WHOA... heart on the Wrong side of chest?!

#2. This Body IS MICHAEL JACKSON and he was NOT an addict or unhealthy except for the same questions/ observations as above.

#3. This Body is NOT Michael Jackson; but a BODY DOUBLE (Perhaps a mix of the two?) used to cover MJ's real condition whether he's in fact dead or alive... ei he was/is an addict & unhealthy, but they didn't want that made public.
Or...he is NOT dead OR AN ADDICT; but this was done as a cover for something bigger.

Urine:
This analysis is done on approximately 450 ml of urine found in a bottle on the scene; no analysis was done on the urine extracted from the bladder!!!!!!!
Heart (blood extracted from heart chambers) the following are detected:
Blood:
1- No alcohol was found
2- Lidocaine (0.68 µg/ml)
3- Diazepam (<0.10 µg/ml)
4- Lorazepam (162 ng/ml)
5- Midazolam (4.6 ng/ml)
6- Nordiazepam (< 0.05 µg/ml)
7- Carbon Monoxide (< 10 % saturation)
8- Propofol (3.2 µg/ml) }

Hospital (this is referring to blood drawn in the hospital on 6/25/09 @ 13:30 hrs, the tube was labeled “Trauma, Gershwin”???) 1- Lidocaine (0.51 µg/ml) 2- Propofol (4.1 µg/ml)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 15, 2011, 12:34:09 PM
I wonder if TS has legit answer on the question that bothers me and some others too I beleive:
WHY PARENTS KEEP FILING WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUITS AGAINST AEG, PHARMACY, ETC.
Don't say this is part of a hoax. It is silly. Better argument and think of consequesnces of lawsuits IF MJ comes back.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 15, 2011, 12:43:12 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
I wonder if TS has legit answer on the question that bothers me and some others too I beleive:
WHY PARENTS KEEP FILING WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUITS AGAINST AEG, PHARMACY, ETC.
Don't say this is part of a hoax. It is silly. Better argument and think of consequesnces of lawsuits IF MJ comes back.

OFF Topic...
But the Short Answer?  MONEY
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 15, 2011, 01:00:48 PM
TS, if you're reading, I have a question.  Can you tell me please, if we were to be really clever and really use our brains in a thoroughly good investigative way, could we ever find out the truth with the information we have?  In other words, do we know enough, are we in possession of sufficient solid facts (if such things exist), to ever work this out or are we just amusing you with our futile fumbling around in the dark!  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 15, 2011, 01:21:04 PM
I think we are curls. I think we've been in possession of the info for over a year. I think we just lack confidence in ourselves.

http://exploringthehoax.wordpress.com/2 ... the-media/ (http://exploringthehoax.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/even-hoaxers-believe-the-media/)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: navibl on April 15, 2011, 01:33:45 PM
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "navibl"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death".  I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then.  If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up.  
I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson?  They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.
Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out.  And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.
(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)

Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.

I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.


Thank you PureLove….I really HATE the word hoax because people always get a picture of a joke or deception.  This is a life saving mission for Michael and the world or the people that will listen.  I know that what Michael is going to bring to us when we hear him again will be so horrific that no one in their right mind will care about it being appropriate to use a dead body, how and who at that point.  We will be so thankfull to God and Michael and that he cared enough all these years to allow God to give him this plan.We will only care about what we can do to save our lives and the lives of those we love.  I have already seen VERY UGLY things going on in this country, and what the Gov is hiding from us that is life threatening and the means they will go to in covering up what they don’t want known. That is why we are here now, to learn what and how he did this, so that we will be beyond that when he speaks to us again.  My biggest concern right now, it that from the view points that I read here, there will be so many that will NOT BELIEVE it is Michael when he returns, they will take up close video shots and try to dissect it with various software and spend so much time trying to disprove it is Michael that they will NEVER hear his message.  This will be very sad.

So my personal opinion is that while I don’t know who or what was in the ambulance just yet, I know what was NOT.  And unless Brian Oxman had total leave of his sense on 6/25 and was completely not thinking or speaking clearly and just totally fumbling all over the place, which I doubt, I know that Michael was NOT IN the ambulance on that day. Because Brian said and I quote, “ I got a call uhh just a little bit BEFORE NOON that Michael had been taken FROM the hospital by Randy’s assistant who gave me that call”  I have included the link below with the vid.  If you look at him while he is talking , there are no signs of grief and is almost as if he is working very hard to keep from smiling, however the rest of the statement goes on as if all else is as most believe of Michael being gone.  Here again we have a play on words, done on purpose to show how deeply deception can be interwoven with just a tad of the truth to twist things totally around and make us believe what they want us to.  Just like Jermaine  Airport and Hospital.   You don’t have that many people with that many slipups on words.  


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Izi-tS5Kk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Izi-tS5Kk)

For the non believing it is a perfect scapegoat to say it was a slip and he got the time and wording confused.  As for the use of a dead body being wrong of Michael and totally out of the scope.  That is child’s play compared to what goes on in this world.  I am certain if we believe Michael has a skilled team working with him, they are to ones who devised the details of a body, fake, alive, or ill.  It is not for us to judge if it is appropriate or not.  Why Michael would have been at the hospital earlier that morning would be sheer speculation on anyone’s part and unnecessary.  He had his reasons for whatever he did, some of which we may never know.

If we are to investigate this in reality, we have to climb out of our little politically correct powder puff boxed in way of thinking and look at the reality of what takes place in this world daily. PURE UGLY is what is in front of us, deception from satan. This is what Michael is trying to get us to see.

Thanks Victoria... It seems those of us leaning toward the dead body theory take this FBI involvement very seriously beyond just Hoax.  This is life & death. The FBI IS involved.  

But I'm wondering if maybe the EMT's were NOT in on it during Live Action Day...
Or just one was; one undercover?  This  =  "Creditabl­e Deniabilit­y" & no Perjury. They simply did their jobs even though the body looked like it had been dead for over an hour, and they didn't recognize who they were working on. They had suspicions, they noted weird things.  :? Does it matter? Do your job; don't question the doctor, circumstances or identity of the person. That's not your business. Perhaps it took so long because someone got to them (FBI) to sign documents forbidding them to disclose what went down that day.  :?:

Quote
TS:
...so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.


I believe Michael’s involvement with the FBI, are with certain one who were of Divine connection,  meaning  God brought them together.  Nothing in this life happens randomly.  Everything has already happened, we are just living it out now, hence Michael’s always saying the music was already written, God was just giving it to him now.  Because FBI is the Federal Gov and corruption lies at the heart of it, just like CIA, KBG,NASA,NOAA and any other Gov acronym.   There has to be certain ones that have Michael’s best interest and heart, and know of the corruption with their own agency.  Like I have mentioned before, I believe some could be retired officers with knowledge of how to work the system and know who is at the stem of the deceit in the agency. Like retired NASA officers that have been trying to warn us of thing for several years not, and people laugh them off.  Not so for too much longer. Remember there are so many layers to this and the plan has been in the works for years.  There are thing this and other world Govs have been hiding from the public while busying themselves to prepare to save their own hides.  There are people in Hollywood in the know, they didn’t just make some of these movies to entertain us, they were to make us think.  Only problem is Man will not be able to save himself, we know what that is going to take.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Daniela on April 15, 2011, 02:08:26 PM
In my opinion, this is an Alternate Reality movie directed by MJ. Some of the characters are real and others are actors. We are all involved in determining the course of this movie. I think the paramedics are actors, as is Dr. Murray, and some of the other key players. Since Michael was so hands-on with everything he did, I believe he was in the ambulance to UCLA, either as the patient or dressed as a paramedic (the one with the blue shirt and pony tail). He had to be there in person to direct the greatest show on earth.

PEACE
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 15, 2011, 02:24:08 PM
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
I am apologize for my 3 hour rant this morning, I have been up 28 hours now...lol..I think I come up with a better way to explain this and possibly give those losing faith some hope as well.

The very first page of this thread and the first thing at least that gets ur attention is the FBI hat.  Subliminal Clue?  Dont know but fits.

From what I have been reading about the fake body and peoples opinions concerning is this.  The main purpose of the fake was to lessen the actually number of "outsiders" that need to be in on the hoax while giving the opprtuinity to for the people who were/are involved credibility that the body was MJ's and for truthful testimony to be given during the trial.  Fine.

Now.......In order for MJ alone to pull this hoax off, a fake body would be a must.  Alone, this body is really the only way he could attempt to fool everyone involved he was really dead.  Tho flawed, perhaps the paramedics and even the hospital and staff  might have beLIEved it really was him.  He really died.  And they saw it with there own eyes.  At a minimum 25 people would have interacted in some way with the fake body on the 25th.  That to me is 25 ways/reasons the hoax could be discovered before it even really started.  Amazingly, noone figured out it was a fake and it did make it to the coroner.  And that is where it ends.  The coroner would have figured out it was fake and MJ really does not have the power or connections to presuade him to help with his hoax no matter the reason.  So with that in mind,  we know MJ has planned for years in great detail to hoax his death.  Years of thought down the drain in the first hours of the first day.  He could not do this alone and not without help.

Enter FBI>>>Whatever MJ has gotten himself into that would warrant the FBI's help and participation remains to be seen.  As to the great depth of the hoax and the amount of coordination needed from the FBI, as well as the FBI's willingness to accept and agree to the terms/way MJ wanted it, whatever it is must be gigantic.  Thus the reason and the plan is put into action.

The FBI could of "killed" MJ off without a body.  But that is not a good show nor add to the realism or confirm that MJ died.  So the FBI provided a fake body.  3 paramedics, coroner and assistance along with a doctor and 4 staff, were "asked" to take part as a matter of "National Security".  This brings our outside people informed to the hoax to 10.  A controlled group, very possibly choosen and selected for this after careful screening.  So for the show, the wheel the fake body into UCLA, straight to a predetermined area under heavy secruity and privacy.  Each persons role defined, actions, statements planned as instructed to do so.  MJ dies.  The announcement made and to continue to embed that MJ did die, is again wheeled out the copter and off to the coroner.  A real-time drama with actual proof MJ had died broadcast to the public to absorb and accept.  MJ is dead, free and removed.  And mission is accomplished.

However at the same time MJ dies, a new and interesting element is introduced with many implications to the future.  But first,

Now, we have established that the ambo pic was staged and shopped.  This is our first real evidence and first domino.  Why evidence?  It shows us that this was staged and planned.  Now knowing MJ could not do this alone and needed help and recieved it from the FBI.  This to now validates it is fake.  Shows us it was planned and if planned needed help, if needed help the FBI did so.  And the FBI does not fail.  IF they want something to happen it does, the way the want it to.  Executed to a T, again only proving the pic is fake as it was part of a bigger picture.   Thus proof MJ lives.  Which brings us to the plan.  Seems like alot of extra fluff made-for-tv was involved in the hoax.  They were much easier ways to get same result.  MJ could of died of overdose/heart attack at home.  NO TV special, no press, taken to hospital pronounced and perhaps a "real" death photo released to prove he had died.  But that is not what happened.   A set of surreal events transpired before the worlds eyes.  Events which left no doubt that MJ had died.  BUT>>>>

That new element?  AS they loaded MJ into the copter, it was now we are introduced to a man who ran out the back door.  Conrad Murray.  First , let's analyze his role.  Honestly, much like the other fluff in the plan, Murray's part in this is really not needed.  The events the way they played out on the 25th could of happened the same way with or without him. It added some drama.  But having a doctor present throughout the events did not change anything or any way things were planned.  Again, not necessary tho.  Or was it....

Now the hoax was success. MJ dead.  World falls for it.  IF MJ wanted peace/freedom or whatever the reason, he now had it.  Except for the door that was left open for things to come.  Murray.  Basically, he was not needed for this to succeed but yet involved anyway.  And left to be tried for a crime he did not commit.  Most likely convicted.  And yet, this truly makes no sense as why he must take the fall.  But it does....The very momment he is introduced into this, he began to play what I believe was his main purpose.  Now this hoax is not just about MJ but a new focal point in Murray.  He is the distraction, decoy and element to the plan that enables new events to take place.  AS the shock wore off and MJ faded, our man Murray was now front and center.  Followed, photographed,disected his role is now exactly as it was planned.  Just about the time MJ fades from our memories, suddenly Mr. Murray becomes relevant again.  A new development or story surfaces to keep us interested.  But is that all?

If MJ ever returns remains to be seen.  If he does regardless some backlash will occur.  2 years ago he was a laughingstock and mocked, 2 months from now?  OMG Bamsday is here!  MJ reappears from his death, however the backlash is not what one might expect.  He is a hero?  huh?  Our FBI boys inform us the great courage and dedication MJ has shown by sacrificing himself in such a way in order to help our nation do whatever it the heck he got himself into in the first place.  A national alibi.  MJ our hero!

Back to ol' Murray.  The martar, the fallguy, the guy who soon will have the world at center stage.  MJ likes center stage.  Quite comfy there actually.(or not)  Murray has endured and completed what is needed for the "last curtain call".  The trial.  His main purpose.  Which is why is doesn't matter if witnesses tell the truth.  Why stories dont match, and calls seem fake or bodies or whatever else.  I believe the trial won't happen.  Wasn't ever suppose to.  MJ "got away" for good if that was the plan.  But it wasn't, and the door is open waiting.........

So to close MJ must be in some big time stink.  Alot went into this, and can only imagine what may have warranted this kind involvement.  Even if MJ has feelings/issues over the past with FBI etc.  Obviously he had no choice, or he is dead....not.  I need sleep.

Good story, sounds very plausible but I do think the trial will take place.

As for the FBI: not all are bad, like not everyone working for the government or in Hollywood is bad. There are a lot of snakes out there, but I still believe in the good of people, even in positions like that. And the enemy of your enemy is your friend.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 15, 2011, 02:31:29 PM
Quote
navibli
I believe Michael’s involvement with the FBI, are with certain one who were of Divine connection, meaning God brought them together. Nothing in this life happens randomly. Everything has already happened, we are just living it out now, hence Michael’s always saying the music was already written, God was just giving it to him now. Because FBI is the Federal Gov and corruption lies at the heart of it, just like CIA, KBG,NASA,NOAA and any other Gov acronym. There has to be certain ones that have Michael’s best interest and heart, and know of the corruption with their own agency. Like I have mentioned before, I believe some could be retired officers with knowledge of how to work the system and know who is at the stem of the deceit in the agency. Like retired NASA officers that have been trying to warn us of thing for several years not, and people laugh them off. Not so for too much longer. Remember there are so many layers to this and the plan has been in the works for years. There are thing this and other world Govs have been hiding from the public while busying themselves to prepare to save their own hides. There are people in Hollywood in the know, they didn’t just make some of these movies to entertain us, they were to make us think. Only problem is Man will not be able to save himself, we know what that is going to take.
Yes there's levels behind the scenes. Larger forces at work here.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 03:07:09 PM
scorpionchik wrote:
GINAFELICIA wrote:
@scorpionchick I think that story about the romanian man who died of cancer instead of MJ is not true because I recall the AR didn't mention the deceased suffered of cancer or other terminal illness  If it was true, the authopsy should have revealed he had cancer.


You are right. But, there is a consideration that autopsy is fake. In this case, even IF that was cancer patient dead instead and coroner is in hoax, they would not reveal cancer part since it would constitute doubt, cause everyone knew MJ did not have cancer. On the other hand, I am thinking, then why they need body at all, if autopsy is fake?  
What a huge mess, right?

Maybe a little helpful medical insight here for you.  There a several different kinds and types of cancer cell.  Each kind has its own specific test to detect them.  To my knowledge(may be wrong) but an autopsy does not do these tests unless there is a reason to know.  Most of these test are very expensive and cash-strapped LA wouldn't just do them for fun.  CBC,BMP Tox screen and UA are the normal standard lab draws.  Most autopsies are done to find an unusal or suspicious cause of death.  In this case, most likely they only looked for drugs because that was the suspected and was the ruling.  BUT of course autopsy was fake too and planned out with desired outcome/cause already choosen....LOL>>>anyways, there is no "one size fits all" test for cancer yet.  But they are however getting closer to it and I won't bore you those specifics. :ugeek:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 15, 2011, 03:10:07 PM
Well, I read all of the pages and what I see is, we are running in circles! Any of the sides could be able to debunk each others theories. I personally could start thinking about "no body was used" theory IF I could find a logical answer to why the EMTs couldn't recognize Michael and told that he was an old Asian man!!! With this statement of the EMTs and a hot room in the middle of summer makes "a dead body was used" theory more logical to me. Especially if we think about  "the less the better" issue about the hoax, again a body was used theory works for me. I didn't read anything logical that debunks a dead body was used theory. So I'll stick with my opinion. And I do not believe any of the sides are going to change their minds about what they think; a body / no body used in the hoax. We're not getting any results but we keep on writing our theories on and on again which is not necessary. No need to repeat ourselves. So, I think we'd better wait for TS' comment about the things we discussed.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 15, 2011, 03:22:03 PM
speaking of TS...not that I'm complaining but my twisted mind can't help wondering what's keeping him away ...

Oh, for those who think there was no body, what do you think they moved from the helicopter to the coroner's van? Was it a dummy under that white sheet? Couldn't be thin air...maybe some pillows like we see in the movies
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: peacock7 on April 15, 2011, 03:40:02 PM
I don't think MJ and children lived at that house.  I think this hoax is also a movie, and the EMTs were actors or FBI agents.  Aren't the police suppose to show up?  An officer showed up when my mother passed.  Or are they purporting that they weren't called because the patient was still alive when transported from house to UCLA?  I think the UCLA footage was filmed earlier also, because we never saw the ambulance pull up to UCLA on 6-25-09.

The guys directing traffic were bodyguards, and the EMTs were actors or FBI agents.  If the police had of been there, then that tour van would have been turned around in my opinion.  17 on tour van.  71 on Ambulance.  MJ had an ambulance at Neverland.

The only way I can see a dead body being transported initially is if that address was not the one MJ supposedly lived at and an elderly Asian man did live there or at an address similar in numbers and name, died and was transported to hospital.  So the paramedics did take an elderly Asian man to hosipital from said address.  Did they say he was alive or dead?  I forgot.  Or, that entire story could have been planted about the Asian man later.  

If the 911 call was placed from the Beverly Hills Hotel, then everything else can be thrown out of the window.  There are no suppositions to derive from that premise, because all things after that are false and fits an illusion of something real and true being jumpstarted from that call, so in effect all other happenings derive from that call.  And why would there be more than one 911 call?

If it is a movie, then that address given as MJ's address is a staging/prop address, just like any other houses we see in movies.  Remember the house MJ and his girl were in in the Thriller video was a prop.  He rented that house strictly as a prop.  No one should believe that chef Ms. Chase, because she came late on the scene, and she is probably an actress.  Another illusion.

I think we should revisit who owned prop house.

More later.

http://dianajeann.blogspot.com/2010_01_01_archive.html (http://dianajeann.blogspot.com/2010_01_01_archive.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xazsOkXOJVw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xazsOkXOJVw)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 15, 2011, 03:57:45 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
speaking of TS...not that I'm complaining but my twisted mind can't help wondering what's keeping him away ...

You want to know what I think?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on April 15, 2011, 03:58:12 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Well, I read all of the pages and what I see is, we are running in circles! Any of the sides could be able to debunk each others theories. I personally could start thinking about "no body was used" theory IF I could find a logical answer to why the EMTs couldn't recognize Michael and told that he was an old Asian man!!! With this statement of the EMTs and a hot room in the middle of summer makes "a dead body was used" theory more logical to me. Especially if we think about  "the less the better" issue about the hoax, again a body was used theory works for me. I didn't read anything logical that debunks a dead body was used theory. So I'll stick with my opinion. And I do not believe any of the sides are going to change their minds about what they think; a body / no body used in the hoax. We're not getting any results but we keep on writing our theories on and on again which is not necessary. No need to repeat ourselves. So, I think we'd better wait for TS' comment about the things we discussed.
You pretty much summed up how I feel in a nutshell.  8-) However, I'm actually leaning more towards the theory of there being BOTH a dead body and a dummy used at different times/places throughout that day....and the other day  :lol: MJ already has one or more dummies that look like him readily available. It count account for the difference in stories. The paramedics said he looked like an old, frail, asian man, while others at the hospital said he looked like MJ.

As far as ALL of the paramedics being "in on it" is it possible that the paramedics that arrived in the ambulance knew about the hoax, but the paramedics that arrived in the fire truck did not? or vice-versa? It could possibly explain the fake 911 AND the 911 call screen showing that the call originated from the Beverly Hills Hotel. Although I'm not exactly sure how lol Any thoughts?  :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: liegi on April 15, 2011, 04:00:11 PM
Quote from: "peacock7"
I don't think MJ and children lived at that house.  I think this hoax is also a movie, and the EMTs were actors or FBI agents.  Aren't the police suppose to show up?  An officer showed up when my mother passed. Or are they purporting that they weren't called because the patient was still alive when transported from house to UCLA?  I think the UCLA footage was filmed earlier also, because we never saw the ambulance pull up to UCLA on 6-25-09.

The guys directing traffic were bodyguards, and the EMTs were actors or FBI agents.  If the police had of been there, then that tour van would have been turned around in my opinion.  17 on tour van.  71 on Ambulance.  MJ had an ambulance at Neverland.

The only way I can see a dead body being transported initially is if that address was not the one MJ supposedly lived at and an elderly Asian man did live there or at an address similar in numbers and name, died and was transported to hospital.  So the paramedics did take an elderly Asian man to hosipital from said address.  Did they say he was alive or dead?  I forgot.  Or, that entire story could have been planted about the Asian man later.  

If the 911 call was placed from the Beverly Hills Hotel, then everything else can be thrown out of the window.  There are no suppositions to derive from that premise, because all things after that are false and fits an illusion of something real and true being jumpstarted from that call, so in effect all other happenings derive from that call.  And why would there be more than one 911 call?

If it is a movie, then that address given as MJ's address is a staging/prop address, just like any other houses we see in movies.  Remember the house MJ and his girl were in in the Thriller video was a prop.  He rented that house strictly as a prop.  No one should believe that chef Ms. Chase, because she came late on the scene, and she is probably an actress.  Another illusion.

I think we should revisit who owned prop house.

More later.

http://dianajeann.blogspot.com/2010_01_01_archive.html (http://dianajeann.blogspot.com/2010_01_01_archive.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xazsOkXOJVw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xazsOkXOJVw)


This is a very good point.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 15, 2011, 04:04:18 PM
Quote from: "peacock7"
I don't think MJ and children lived at that house.  

Totally agree, he NEVER lived there. Too close to the road to have the privacy he wants, but perfect for a show.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on April 15, 2011, 04:05:18 PM
Quote from: "peacock7"
The guys directing traffic were bodyguards, and the EMTs were actors or FBI agents.  If the police had of been there, then that tour van would have been turned around in my opinion.  17 on tour van.  71 on Ambulance.  MJ had an ambulance at Neverland.
First of all welcome!!  :D Secondly, from what I have seen the ambulance that MJ had at Neverland looked nothing like ambulance 71 and also said "Neverland" on the side. Of course its very possible that he had more than one. I can't find the picture that I saw of the ambulance, but here is a picture of the fire truck.
(http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/86%20GMC_1.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 04:11:14 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
speaking of TS...not that I'm complaining but my twisted mind can't help wondering what's keeping him away ...

Oh, for those who think there was no body, what do you think they moved from the helicopter to the coroner's van? Was it a dummy under that white sheet? Couldn't be thin air...maybe some pillows like we see in the movies

Tho we have learned alot the last few weeks and opened our minds to new possibilities, I must say the ambo pic project was more fun because TS stayed involved.  These last 2 have become more frustrating because even if we are on to something we have no way of knowing that we are.....booo

No body at all seems less likely than having a body.  Eiher a fake one or MJ himself.

The biggest issue I have with Mj really being on the stretcher is the chance of being caught alive.  The FBI has already completely abandoned normal protocol to allow MJ to do it his way.  If making MJ disappear foever was the goal a simplier way would have been done.  At this point I can not see them allowing MJ any chance of being exposed alive as there would be no defense if it was discovered.

Fake just seems to the logical and safer route.  But yet the "sitting" up vid has issues, however did we see that copter land to know what was inside before?  And what if MJ was the surfboard on the table, remember they almost dropped him putting him into van.  Too much risk.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ignisaeternus on April 15, 2011, 04:45:35 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Well, I read all of the pages and what I see is, we are running in circles! Any of the sides could be able to debunk each others theories. I personally could start thinking about "no body was used" theory IF I could find a logical answer to why the EMTs couldn't recognize Michael and told that he was an old Asian man!!! With this statement of the EMTs and a hot room in the middle of summer makes "a dead body was used" theory more logical to me. Especially if we think about  "the less the better" issue about the hoax, again a body was used theory works for me. I didn't read anything logical that debunks a dead body was used theory. So I'll stick with my opinion. And I do not believe any of the sides are going to change their minds about what they think; a body / no body used in the hoax. We're not getting any results but we keep on writing our theories on and on again which is not necessary. No need to repeat ourselves. So, I think we'd better wait for TS' comment about the things we discussed.
The logical answer is that their statement was false- as they have been briefed and prepared on what to say. Just like the autopsy report is just that - false. No body necessary if they were on the "in."
But yes, I do feel we're chasing our tails. Fun- but not utterly productive. :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 15, 2011, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: "ignisaeternus"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Well, I read all of the pages and what I see is, we are running in circles! Any of the sides could be able to debunk each others theories. I personally could start thinking about "no body was used" theory IF I could find a logical answer to why the EMTs couldn't recognize Michael and told that he was an old Asian man!!! With this statement of the EMTs and a hot room in the middle of summer makes "a dead body was used" theory more logical to me. Especially if we think about  "the less the better" issue about the hoax, again a body was used theory works for me. I didn't read anything logical that debunks a dead body was used theory. So I'll stick with my opinion. And I do not believe any of the sides are going to change their minds about what they think; a body / no body used in the hoax. We're not getting any results but we keep on writing our theories on and on again which is not necessary. No need to repeat ourselves. So, I think we'd better wait for TS' comment about the things we discussed.
The logical answer is that their statement was false- as they have been briefed and prepared on what to say. Just like the autopsy report is just that - false. No body necessary if they were on the "in."
But yes, I do feel we're chasing our tails. Fun- but not utterly productive. :)

Their statement was false how? You say they recognized Michael but lied about what the patient looked like on purpose?  Why would they do that? Why would Michael or FBI ask them to lie about it?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 15, 2011, 04:59:44 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "peacock7"
I don't think MJ and children lived at that house.  

Totally agree, he NEVER lived there. Too close to the road to have the privacy he wants, but perfect for a show.

I agree...but, then WHO was there?  Wasn't the tours saying it was Michael living there?  Was it someone ill?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 15, 2011, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: "StrangerInCalifornia"
Quote from: "peacock7"
The guys directing traffic were bodyguards, and the EMTs were actors or FBI agents.  If the police had of been there, then that tour van would have been turned around in my opinion.  17 on tour van.  71 on Ambulance.  MJ had an ambulance at Neverland.
First of all welcome!!  :D Secondly, from what I have seen the ambulance that MJ had at Neverland looked nothing like ambulance 71 and also said "Neverland" on the side. Of course its very possible that he had more than one. I can't find the picture that I saw of the ambulance, but here is a picture of the fire truck.
(http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/86%20GMC_1.jpg)

they say what seperates the men from the boys is the price of their toys. ;)
on a more serious note. i really don't know if this fits here but here goes my question. does anyone remember at the preliminary ( i think) the lawyer for the tree body guards on duty that day made a statement . he said something like these men decided they needed legal representation when they realized or discovered that what went down that day was being  relayed or portrayed differently as far as they knew that what had actually happened. does anyone else remember this or are any of you able to find a video of that statement? like i said i don't know if it fits here but i thought it was an interesting statement.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 05:38:12 PM
Quote from: "peacock7"
I don't think MJ and children lived at that house.  I think this hoax is also a movie, and the EMTs were actors or FBI agents.  Aren't the police suppose to show up?  An officer showed up when my mother passed.  Or are they purporting that they weren't called because the patient was still alive when transported from house to UCLA?  I think the UCLA footage was filmed earlier also, because we never saw the ambulance pull up to UCLA on 6-25-09.

The guys directing traffic were bodyguards, and the EMTs were actors or FBI agents.  If the police had of been there, then that tour van would have been turned around in my opinion.  17 on tour van.  71 on Ambulance.  MJ had an ambulance at Neverland.

The only way I can see a dead body being transported initially is if that address was not the one MJ supposedly lived at and an elderly Asian man did live there or at an address similar in numbers and name, died and was transported to hospital.  So the paramedics did take an elderly Asian man to hosipital from said address.  Did they say he was alive or dead?  I forgot.  Or, that entire story could have been planted about the Asian man later.  

If the 911 call was placed from the Beverly Hills Hotel, then everything else can be thrown out of the window.  There are no suppositions to derive from that premise, because all things after that are false and fits an illusion of something real and true being jumpstarted from that call, so in effect all other happenings derive from that call.  And why would there be more than one 911 call?

If it is a movie, then that address given as MJ's address is a staging/prop address, just like any other houses we see in movies.  Remember the house MJ and his girl were in in the Thriller video was a prop.  He rented that house strictly as a prop.  No one should believe that chef Ms. Chase, because she came late on the scene, and she is probably an actress.  Another illusion.

I think we should revisit who owned prop house.

More later.

http://dianajeann.blogspot.com/2010_01_01_archive.html (http://dianajeann.blogspot.com/2010_01_01_archive.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xazsOkXOJVw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xazsOkXOJVw)

This is an interesting interpetation and plausible.  I believe we are close to uncovering something in this thread.  Ideas and thoughts are becoming more alike with little variations.  Tho we have no direction at the momment and seemingly frustrated as to circles we are going in, I dont see it as we are stuck.  In fact perhaps a little more analyzing of the pros and cons in each theory will help us put these clues together.  Even with no TS, we now have the info to build on and construct a truer version of events and reasons behind it.  Perhaps that is what he is trying to make us see.  TS has/had been making us aware of the smaller details within in the hoax.  Allowing us to uncover and see the makings and workings of the way in which this was pulled off successfully.  If those details are what we are after only now and all that interests us we are disserving ourselves and our abilities.  While these "snippets" are interesting and insightful they only reaffirm that which we know and have hung on to for 2 years.  I believe the pieces of the puzzle are on table and that we can figure out where they fit.  And I think we are close.  Very close.  

  The information we have now leads in another direction than we have previously not looked.  As our ideas have change over time, so has the information.  We have researched to uncover things noone else cares about.  We have cried, we have hit our head on the walls, ordered straight jackets but through it all remain strong in our belief.  Even when it felt pointless.  

I don't think any one theory will totally be correct and there may be more than one that actually could of happened, such as this one.  The next step is to redefine those ideas and give the reason why or why not they are true or improbable or insane.  By reevaluating each, the different ideas will start to have common denominators that will link them together.  And when we prove the truth to an area or idea it will lead us to the next and next.  In last couple months I have been seeing a consisitent 4 or 5 ideas with common points that link them many of them together.  However we one point is made that validates it or disputes it often get lost and forgotten in the madness of the thread.

So I propose this my fellow insane family members.  I will look back and find some of the theories I am referring too.  Then open a thread for each one.  If your feelings get hurt easy do not apply.  As it pertains to each theory we rip/shred/validate and collabrate the points to each of them.  And after we have done this, we will update the version to reflect what we find,then try to see that what links them all  together and maybe find what we are looking for.

I hate seeing this kind of post----"But yes, I do feel we're chasing our tails. Fun- but not utterly productive".----

Because we are, we just aren't putting it together.  I will post later where to find this.  Come by if you wanna play.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhunny on April 15, 2011, 06:06:22 PM
100 N. Carolwood Dr
Los Angeles-Bel Air, CA 90077 Share  See Photos Neighborhood: Bel Air

Owner: Hubert A Guez (Co Trustee), Guez (Trust) (as of January 2007)
 There are 2 messages waiting for the owner of 100 N. Carolwood Dr. Register and claim this property to see your messages now.

Sales History (1992-present)
N/A on Feb. 21, 2008
B: Guez (Living Trust), Roxanne M Guez (Trustee)
S: Guez (Living Trust), Roxanne M Guez (Trustee)
N/A on Jan. 16, 2004
B: Mohamed Hadid, Yolanda J J Hadid
S: Yolanda J J Hadid
$18,500,000 on Jan. 16, 2004
B: Hubert A Guez (Trustee), Guez (Trustee) (Living Trust), Roxanne M Guez
S: Mohamed Hadid, Yolanda J J Hadid
N/A on July 23, 2002
B: Yolanda J J Hadid
S: Yolanda J J Hadid, Yolanda Van Den Herik Hadid
N/A on Dec. 7, 2000
B: Yolanda Van Den Herik Hadid
S: Yolanda Hadid (Trustee), Van Den Herik Holland (Family Trust)
$3,700,000 on June 13, 2000
B: Yolanda Hadid (Trustee), Herik Holland Van Den (Family Trust)
S: Tga Carson Properties Llc
N/A on Jan. 27, 2000
B: Tga Carson Properties Llc
S: Anita Lorber, Arnold Lorber
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 15, 2011, 06:12:18 PM
Quote
bec wrote:

I think we are curls. I think we've been in possession of the info for over a year. I think we just lack confidence in ourselves.

http://exploringthehoax.wordpress.com/2 (http://exploringthehoax.wordpress.com/2) ... the-media/
This is interesting





Quote
Not a paramedic.
 
Reason #1, ponytails and hair below ear lobe level are expressly against EMT and LAFD dress code protocol.
 
Reason #2, There are 3 paramedics already present in this GIF, two at the head of the stretcher and one at the foot on the left side.
 
Reason #3, there are no legs to accompany this person.
 
Reason #4, this person’s head remains level as the other walking people’s heads bob up and down with their walking stride. The only other head in this GIF that remains level is the gentleman standing motionless in the doorway.
 
Conclusion: This ponytailed person is either levitating beside the stretcher or sitting on the stretcher.
 
Conclusion jumped to: As this is the stretcher unloaded from the ambulance videotaped leaving Michael’s residence on 6-25 and arriving at UCLA, this levitating or stretcher riding person is Michael.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 15, 2011, 07:36:59 PM
Quote
AllInGoodTime wrote:
You have no choice, no rights nor any free will when you are dealing with the FBI. You say "Yes sir". Period. Or you WILL be removed. It does not matter if you disagree, because they own you too.
I strongly disagree with this. I didn’t quote your whole post but used these statements as an example of someone talking through their own fear. I am not owned by the FBI and I certainly do not think the ones involved in this hoax/sting operation are going to the extreme how you have described. That theory you have painted only exists in movies. It isn’t as bad as you say.

Quote
2good2btrue wrote:
Drs, nurses, coroners, EMT etc, must do what they are told to do...no questions asked. Well the government control us and everything we do !!
I do not agree with this statement. Everyone has a choice when it comes to going along with the program or not. If these people are not naturally shady, IF a plan was called to their attention or they were briefed on the hoax; some may have a huge problem with it. Whistleblowers do exist. I strongly disagree with the government controls us and everything we do. I do understand that there are some rules that one can not avoid but I certainly do not live my life according to what the shady NWO governments say.
Quote
TS wrote:
R38. “People Should Not Be Afraid of Their Governments. …”
(http://rlv.zcache.com/people_should_not_be_afraid_of_their_government_bumper_sticker-p128385723565042693trl0_400.jpg)

The full quote says: “People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” As most already know, this is a quote from the “V for Vendetta” film. This clue was quite obvious, and didn’t need any deep investigation. Yet this had more than one reason, as usual.

Especially after the section on the Kennedys, people were saying that TIAI was trying to create fear in order to control people. It is sad that people try to find an evil motive in everything; yet with the condition of society, there is a great deal of evil out there—so it is understandable. So this redirect was given to help people see that TIAI was not trying to create fear in the people; if anything, it is intended to create fear in the corrupt leaders committing these crimes.

Another reason for this redirect, was that it was a picture of a bumper sticker. If anyone found the source of the picture, they also found where to buy the bumper stickers http://www.zazzle.com/people_should_not ... 3565042693 (http://www.zazzle.com/people_should_not_be_afraid_of_their_government_bumper_sticker-128385723565042693). Put them on your car, and help spread the message (I have no affiliation with Zazzle, and I don’t make a single penny from these sales; I just want to promote the message).

The Bible says: “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear … He that feareth is not made perfect in love.” (1 John 4:18; see Revelation 2:10). So don’t be afraid to join Michael’s Army of L.O.V.E. (see R39, next).
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 15, 2011, 07:38:45 PM
Quote from: "bec"
I think we are curls. I think we've been in possession of the info for over a year. I think we just lack confidence in ourselves.

http://exploringthehoax.wordpress.com/2 ... the-media/ (http://exploringthehoax.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/even-hoaxers-believe-the-media/)

OK.....I am about to totally embarrass myself here...but, I am willing to endure it for the hoax........
I watched this GIF over and over and over......
I believe I have seen that backside before ......it's in TII when we see the tri-split screen with three Michaels that have their back to us at the end of the song (Human Nature, I think)
We talked about that tri-screen a long time ago......but from the standpoint of doubles.  

Blessings.....
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 15, 2011, 07:45:25 PM
Quote
curls wrote:
@ Im_convinced, below is taken from Sinderella's summary of Day 3 of the prelim:

viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17067#p293555

Witness #7—Paramedic Martin Blount

Firefighter 20 years. Paramedic 11 years. Working as a paramedic on June 25th, 2009. He was the driver on this call. Once on the property, he was directed in the house and up the stairs.
When he first saw the patient, he was not on the floor; he was in the bed.
Blount identifies the defendant, who identified himself as the patient’s personal physician. Dr. Murray was the one who opened the door and requested help. He noticed that Dr. Murray was sweating profusely. Blount clarifies that when he entered the room, the patient was on the floor. Testifies that he noticed an IV stand in the room. The patient was moved to a better area of the room.
Explains why he was last person in the room. As the driver, he got the gurney out of the back of the ambulance and other gear. His role, as driver, is to be available to the patient, so he positions himself at the patient’s head. He did hear Dr. Murray being asked if the patient had been given any drugs and Dr. Murray said no. Dr. Murray explained that the reason there was an IV was because the patient had been dehydrated.
Hi curls,

Thank you for the link. However there are a few flaws in what has been reported in the summary thread. No offense to Sinderella but how reliable was the info she got? My opinion not very and heres why.
Quote
His role, as driver, is to be available to the patient, so he positions himself at the patient’s head.

This is physically IMPOSSIBLE. Can you explain how Blount can drive the ambulance and also be available to the patient by positioning himself at the patients head? There is no way he can drive, which requires looking forward, being in the front seat and also be in the back of the ambulance facing the backdoor at the patients head. Picture of Ambulance #71 with the doors open.
(http://www.teamgoonphotos.com/Random-Happenings/Breakfast-at-Fire-Station-71/18P1040396/900256507_nqExf-O.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 15, 2011, 07:50:30 PM
Quote
MJonmind wrote:

Im_convincedMJalive, remember this TMZ story about the body outside the Murray's courthouse? Could be they are hinting at the same thing, the use of an unwanted corpse.
http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/25/dr-conrad (http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/25/dr-conrad) ... raignment/

Yes possibly. I don’t read everything that comes out from TMZ when it is first posted on the forum. I do catch it a little after the fact so I end up eventually being aware. This article did not play a factor in my theories. ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 15, 2011, 08:11:14 PM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
Quote
AllInGoodTime wrote:
You have no choice, no rights nor any free will when you are dealing with the FBI. You say "Yes sir". Period. Or you WILL be removed. It does not matter if you disagree, because they own you too.
I strongly disagree with this. I didn’t quote your whole post but used these statements as an example of someone talking through their own fear. I am not owned by the FBI and I certainly do not think the ones involved in this hoax/sting operation are going to the extreme how you have described. That theory you have painted only exists in movies. It isn’t as bad as you say.

Quote
2good2btrue wrote:
Drs, nurses, coroners, EMT etc, must do what they are told to do...no questions asked. Well the government control us and everything we do !!
I do not agree with this statement. Everyone has a choice when it comes to going along with the program or not. If these people are not naturally shady, IF a plan was called to their attention or they were briefed on the hoax; some may have a huge problem with it. Whistleblowers do exist. I strongly disagree with the government controls us and everything we do. I do understand that there are some rules that one can not avoid but I certainly do not live my life according to what the shady NWO governments say.
Quote
TS wrote:
R38. “People Should Not Be Afraid of Their Governments. …”


Well said Im_convincedmjalive. I am not affraid either or nor owned . We live & feel very well, safe and free in this country. I don't get where people here get so much wrong and misleading infomation about American government and express their opinion as a statement of fact. WTF!! WHERE DID YOU GET THOSE INFOS, PEOPLE?
From special agent of CIA? Oh no, let's see, from TABLOID, MEDIA. BUT IT IS TRASH and JUNKIE, REMEMBER? WTF is this?!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: blue moon on April 15, 2011, 08:22:47 PM
ill will start my theorie with the autopsie report.

When the autopsy report is not fake, than there have to be a body that died of some illness. But that was not the cause of death.  the propofol and the other meds were. So it has to be (assistend) suicide for psychological problems? And they took the ingerprints of the body. Wy an autopsy on a real body?  when the coronor finds out it is not MJ because of his fingerprints. When the coronor is in the know, he does not need a real body. I think that the ar is fake.

Are the paramedics real? Was a real dead body neccesary for the paramedics?

Richard Senneff: question: did you have a particular role to play as part of this emergency repsons team. answer: All of our jobs are predetermined. you were the passenger, that’s correct. does that have a meaning who does what. I as the radio man, I have control in information gathering, whehat the most imortant part.

Richard Senneff descripes himself perfectly as the paramedic at the head of MJ in the ambulance picture; question: Where were you in the ambulance? Answer: I was at he heand of the gurney at hthey ehad, between his knees, to keep an eye on his airway, That alows me to be right they near the microphone . I was in the RA, facing th windows, facing bakwards. my back  was to the drive. the other two paramedicas werw eht us.   Is the picture of the ambulance fake? Than the testimony of Richard is fake.

Q: Another idea he had (Murray), was to administer magnesium.

Senneff: Yes.

Q: They don’t give you all the equipment (medications) as a hospital?

Senneff: That’s correct. Paramedics did not have magnesium on hand. Not part of their standard medication stocking, so all that had to be obtained from the hospital.


Mark goodwin: trying to get an iv in MJ in the bedroom
Wednesday, July 16, 2003 http://www.lafd.org (http://www.lafd.org) Number 29 weekly bulletin of LA firefighters

Dear Chief Bamattre:
Re: Kenton Smith, F/F Paramedic
Mark Goodwin, F/F Paramedic
The medical staff at UCLA MC EMC would like to recognize your
outstanding skills and knowledge in assisting a man in cardiac
arrest. The call came in on May 27th. It was a difficult situation in
that he was in a rare cardiac rhythm called Torsades de Pointes.
It looks similar to ventricular tachycardia. Lidocaine and magnesium
is the treatment of choice. He has had a positive outcome, to
date, and has you to thank. We appreciate your efforts in providing
outstanding care for our community.
Sincerely,
Karen Simonet, PCC
Atilla Uner, MD, MPH



Mark Goodwin  CEO, 7G Safety Inc.

    Greater Los Angeles Area
    Public Safety

Current:         Owner at 7G Safety Inc.
 Firefighter/Paramedic at Los Angeles city Fire Department


Websites:         Company Website

Mark Goodwin's Experience
Owner 7G Safety Inc.

Public Safety industry

January 2008 – Present (3 years 4 months)

I have been teaching CPR classes for 20 years, I started my
7G Safety Inc. company last year. I have incorporated many different classes for businesses, schools, medical and dental offices, construction companies and more. Classes include: CPR/AED/First Aid Classes, OSHA Safety Classes, Disaster Preparedness Training. I am an AED (automatic external defibrillator) distributor for the Philips Corporation.
Firefighter/Paramedic Los Angeles city Fire Department

Public Safety industry

December 1980 – Present (30 years 5 months)

currently a firefighter/Paramedic for 28 years



Mark goodwin was maybe already at the prelim ?(day 2 part c) trials and tribulations

parpmedic for 27 25 with LAFD.

I heard you say earlier that as a parmedic thaty ou don’t have all the discretion that all the things a dr can do. that’s corect I’m not a doctor. to give yourslef you work in a much differne enviroment htan a doctor thati’s corect. you hae to gov oit in he ireld thats’ ture. You hae to go out and i nvieomtn in situatuoins that are directly unpredictable. In fairs to do, he you don’t get any of that. Doctors have a controleld invoronent and a lot of team, that have trined with. our engine company that I train with, we get some of that.
You now tran seasoned paramedics because you’re so good at it/ that’s corect.





Brad herron: firefighter not a paramedic, doing chestcompressions on MJ in bedroom. Maybe he is allowed to do this, but according to their bulletin you get a 3 months education, 5 days a week, before you are a licenced paramedic.


martin blount: driver of ambulance 71, securing an airway in the bedroom, the fifth one in line of the five firefighters who enters the bedroom. Blount observed Dr. Murray in the ambulance take out his cell phone and make a phone call. While working on the patient, Blount heard that it was Michael Jackson and he recognized him as Michael Jackson. At the hospital, he was at the location, restocking his equipment. So Martin Blount was the second paramedic working on MJ in the ambulance. Did we see a black paramedic working on MJ in the ambulance picture? Who drives the ambulance to the hospital. Their job is probably not so predetermined as Sennef said?


Jeffrey Mills: according to his wife he was very busy with the resusication of MJ. But he is only mentioned by Senneff as the fire chief. His wife said that he and the ambulance(crew) were at UCLa till at least 7 o clock in the evening. Why so long? Normally they deliver the patient, fill in the forms and go back to the station waiting for another emergency. I believe there was a briefing between the paramedics, Michael/Jermaine? FBI? Hospital management.


I believe they know. In cord they can give a plausible testimony. And especially Mark Goodwin is so experienced, you cannot fool him. I don't think they used a real body. They new already what was going to happen, but had their first briefing when they arrived at the house, and the second one in the hospital.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 08:29:38 PM
Im-convinced...
I strongly disagree with this. I didn’t quote your whole post but used these statements as an example of someone talking through their own fear. I am not owned by the FBI and I certainly do not think the ones involved in this hoax/sting operation are going to the extreme how you have described. That theory you have painted only exists in movies. It isn’t as bad as you say.

I appreciate your strong-willed comments and think that you make and have made many valid points and arguements in the posts I have read from you.  Tho I do not wish to belittle or discredit your opinions, as we all are intitled to them, however with all due respect  you are naive if you think this can't happen or doesn't.  

I highly doubt if you were approach and told to perform a action from FBI you would refuse.  You are 1 of 350 million americans and would not be missed if the FBI felt you were jeopardizing a National Secruity issue.  In blink of an eye you would either be in a frozen jail cell in the middle of Alaska, or having conversations with your maker.  Oh that's the movies....Where do you think that idea came from to use in the movies?  Regardless of TS's is saying about goverments, fact is it happens.  Or perhaps a threat against a love one may get you to think different.  Seriously what could you really do?  Who would you tell of this "personal violation"?  And do you think they would believe you or even care?  You are powerless to defend yourself.  And if you read all of my posts concerning the FBI, I also stated the people selected would have been carefully screened and selected to perform this.  The FBI knows what you ate for breakfast if they wanted to know.  There are satelites in orbit that can see thru roof and see what page you are reading while on the john.  What do you got?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 15, 2011, 08:33:12 PM
Quote from: "MsTrinity333"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
I wonder if TS has legit answer on the question that bothers me and some others too I beleive:
WHY PARENTS KEEP FILING WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUITS AGAINST AEG, PHARMACY, ETC.
Don't say this is part of a hoax. It is silly. Better argument and think of consequesnces of lawsuits IF MJ comes back.

OFF Topic...
But the Short Answer?  MONEY

Wow, genious answer....... :roll:  
 It is NOT OFF the topic because this topic already off, secondly if we cannot come up with 1 reasonable argument about ambulance and body existence,then maybe there will be an answer if we analyze future. So, IF MJ is alive and returns, how Jacksons will explain wrongful death lawsuit filings? Because they did not know Michael is alive? then who's body was buried? And so on .....
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 15, 2011, 08:41:08 PM
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Im-convinced...
I strongly disagree with this. I didn’t quote your whole post but used these statements as an example of someone talking through their own fear. I am not owned by the FBI and I certainly do not think the ones involved in this hoax/sting operation are going to the extreme how you have described. That theory you have painted only exists in movies. It isn’t as bad as you say.

I appreciate your strong-willed comments and think that you make and have made many valid points and arguements in the posts I have read from you.  Tho I do not wish to belittle or discredit your opinions, as we all are intitled to them, however with all due respect  you are naive if you think this can't happen or doesn't.  
I highly doubt if you were approach and told to perform a action from FBI you would refuse.  You are 1 of 350 million americans and would not be missed if the FBI felt you were jeopardizing a National Secruity issue.  In blink of an eye you would either be in a frozen jail cell in the middle of Alaska, or having conversations with your maker.  Oh that's the movies....Where do you think that idea came from to use in the movies?  Regardless of TS's is saying about goverments, fact is it happens.  Or perhaps a threat against a love one may get you to think different.  Seriously what could you really do?  Who would you tell of this "personal violation"?  And do you think they would believe you or even care?  You are powerless to defend yourself.  And if you read all of my posts concerning the FBI, I also stated the people selected would have been carefully screened and selected to perform this.  The FBI knows what you ate for breakfast if they wanted to know.  There are satelites in orbit that can see thru roof and see what page you are reading while on the john.  :shock:  :roll:  


Where are you from???   From wherever you are, you concentrate on analyzing and studying your own country. Is that clear? I mean it!  
You don't give here nonsense lessons about American authorities!
Don't forget there are satelites and they can watch your writing too.(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sauer/angry-smiley-032.gif)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 08:47:29 PM
and one last thing concerning peoples lack of knowledge concerning the FBI.  AS a vet of the marine core , I have seen and witnessed things most of you would piss in your pants from.  I have been on ops that were not military ordered but by Govt. agencies.  Instructed to do things I felt were morally wrong.  And do you think they really give a damm that you "think your not owned"?  This is not MR. Rogers Neighborhood.  The dream world you live that things , however morally wrong or injust , don't happen is just that, a dream.  I am not trying to convince you this is reality, but only to inform you that you do not live in it.  Think what you want, I know what I have seen and been made to do.  You are a number, that can be easily disposed of.  But whatever, I'm sure they will listen to you when start telling them about your "Bill of Rights" while they toss you in the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.  MY bad your right.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 09:11:57 PM
Where are you from??? From wherever you are, you concentrate on analyzing and studying your own country. Is that clear? I mean it!
You don't give here nonsense lessons about American authorities!
Don't forget there are satelites and they can watch your writing too.

Are you serious?  I am from the country I defended  and watched my friends die while you sat your back-side eating bon-bons and watching your 56inch Plasma and reruns of LOST.  You have no clue what you are saying or have no knowledge of the world in which you live.  I have taken a bullet in the leg so you can enjoy your many freedoms and comforts that you obviously take for granted.  I am an AMERICAN! I have bled for my country and for ungrateful bitches like yourself.  So when you get a clue and want open your eyes to world in which you live, please do tell.  Until then hop in BMW, head to the spa have lunch with your girlfriends and on the way home I hope you get blind-sided by an 18 wheeler and end up on vent with permanent brain damage.  And the only words you ever say again is, Thank God for the Marine Core!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 15, 2011, 09:24:32 PM
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
and one last thing concerning peoples lack of knowledge concerning the FBI.  AS a vet of the marine core , I have seen and witnessed things most of you would piss in your pants from.  I have been on ops that were not military ordered but by Govt. agencies.  Instructed to do things I felt were morally wrong.  And do you think they really give a damm that you "think your not owned"?  This is not MR. Rogers Neighborhood.  The dream world you live that things , however morally wrong or injust , don't happen is just that, a dream.  I am not trying to convince you this is reality, but only to inform you that you do not live in it.  Think what you want, I know what I have seen and been made to do.  You are a number, that can be easily disposed of.  But whatever, I'm sure they will listen to you when start telling them about your "Bill of Rights" while they toss you in the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.  MY bad your right.
I appreciate your imput and I do lean toward your ways of viewing the PTB. Don't worry about flack and  continue to post.  Here in AUZ we have federal police and they can know everything about you if they deem you of interest. Seems someone is always watching, probably monitoring this radical free thinking site for dissidents as I write.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 15, 2011, 09:39:26 PM
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Where are you from??? From wherever you are, you concentrate on analyzing and studying your own country. Is that clear? I mean it!
You don't give here nonsense lessons about American authorities!
Don't forget there are satelites and they can watch your writing too.

Are you serious?  I am from the country I defended  and watched my friends die while you sat your back-side eating bon-bons and watching your 56inch Plasma and reruns of LOST.  You have no clue what you are saying or have no knowledge of the world in which you live.  I have taken a bullet in the leg so you can enjoy your many freedoms and comforts that you obviously take for granted.  I am an AMERICAN! I have bled for my country and for ungrateful bitches like yourself.  So when you get a clue and want open your eyes to world in which you live, please do tell.  Until then hop in BMW, head to the spa have lunch with your girlfriends and on the way home I hope you get blind-sided by an 18 wheeler and end up on vent with permanent brain damage.  And the only words you ever say again is, Thank God for the Marine Core!

You are not an American. You are disrespectful, pathetic, miserable loser-son of bitch!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 15, 2011, 09:43:05 PM
Stop with the personal attacks here people. That's not what this thread is for. If you want to slap each other around, do it in PM so I don't have to read it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 15, 2011, 09:46:56 PM
That this happening here :?:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 15, 2011, 09:47:16 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Where are you from??? From wherever you are, you concentrate on analyzing and studying your own country. Is that clear? I mean it!
You don't give here nonsense lessons about American authorities!
Don't forget there are satelites and they can watch your writing too.

Are you serious?  I am from the country I defended  and watched my friends die while you sat your back-side eating bon-bons and watching your 56inch Plasma and reruns of LOST.  You have no clue what you are saying or have no knowledge of the world in which you live.  I have taken a bullet in the leg so you can enjoy your many freedoms and comforts that you obviously take for granted.  I am an AMERICAN! I have bled for my country and for ungrateful bitches like yourself.  So when you get a clue and want open your eyes to world in which you live, please do tell.  Until then hop in BMW, head to the spa have lunch with your girlfriends and on the way home I hope you get blind-sided by an 18 wheeler and end up on vent with permanent brain damage.  And the only words you ever say again is, Thank God for the Marine Core!

You are not an American. You are disrespectful, pathetic, miserable loser-son of bitch!

STOP IT RIGHT THERE!

I told you to handle this in PM, and you do this? I very much dislike this childish behavior. You ridicule people more often scorpion, and although AllInGoodTime should have counted to 10 before posting, I do understand his reaction to your comment. Take a look in the mirror first. Seriously, what were you thinking? This is not only childish, but also a stab in MY back after what I asked you in PM. Consider yourself warned.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 15, 2011, 09:48:06 PM
Discussion closed and back on topic everyone again please.

Thank you for your consideration.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 15, 2011, 10:08:59 PM
I would like to apologize if I have offended anyone.  As I only was trying to offer insight into real world. I have never once have demeaning to a person for their opinion.  I do not really care if you believe what I say.  I am only offering the knowledge I have obtained in life as it applies to this.  I have seen many things, done many, some I am not proud of, but I will not tolerate an attack of my charcter.  I am an RN now, I save lives instead of take them.  AND I served most of you here, willing to die for your very freedom without even knowing who you are.  So I will not apologize for the way I feel, only if I offended you in the process, as it wasnt my intention.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 15, 2011, 10:33:23 PM
I've always wondered why Ben Evensted, doesn't have any video footage of them taking MJ into the emergency entrance...he claims he was following the ambulance, but he was following the two SUVs, following the ambulance,,yet we have no real video of it arriving... we only have still shots..which doesn't prove that they were there....A busy hospital like UCLA, usually has alot more ambulances backing in....yet there is only that one.  Two of the pics don't match up.  Murray seems out of place there, almost as if he was photoshopped into the pic. Was Murray in the ambulance or in the black SUV with the security guards..???  

2.  How many bodyguards were supposed to be at the house that day????  Three??

Because two Black SUV's sped off behind the ambulance, and yet there were still two bodyguards at the gate.  

So who was driving the two SUV's ?????

And in the first picture, you can just see that there seems to be "NO BODY" taken into UCLA..

Does anyone  know how many security guards were working that day ???  Please.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 15, 2011, 11:29:06 PM
This is what I think;

No Body- I think that since the FBI is involved they have other ways instead of using a body

Faked Coroners report- which would be pretty easy because you can easily fake that if you have the FBI on your side (I remember in the movie The Skulls 2...they faked the Coroner report by paying the Coroner...I am not saying that is what the FBI paid the Coroner but there are ways to fake the report)

If the FBI didn't involve the paramedics but told them they have to do this no questions asked...they would know something is suspicious and figure out that MJ faked is death...so they are probably in the hoax...unless there is a real body
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 15, 2011, 11:36:17 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Im-convinced...
I strongly disagree with this. I didn’t quote your whole post but used these statements as an example of someone talking through their own fear. I am not owned by the FBI and I certainly do not think the ones involved in this hoax/sting operation are going to the extreme how you have described. That theory you have painted only exists in movies. It isn’t as bad as you say.

I appreciate your strong-willed comments and think that you make and have made many valid points and arguements in the posts I have read from you.  Tho I do not wish to belittle or discredit your opinions, as we all are intitled to them, however with all due respect  you are naive if you think this can't happen or doesn't.  
I highly doubt if you were approach and told to perform a action from FBI you would refuse.  You are 1 of 350 million americans and would not be missed if the FBI felt you were jeopardizing a National Secruity issue.  In blink of an eye you would either be in a frozen jail cell in the middle of Alaska, or having conversations with your maker.  Oh that's the movies....Where do you think that idea came from to use in the movies?  Regardless of TS's is saying about goverments, fact is it happens.  Or perhaps a threat against a love one may get you to think different.  Seriously what could you really do?  Who would you tell of this "personal violation"?  And do you think they would believe you or even care?  You are powerless to defend yourself.  And if you read all of my posts concerning the FBI, I also stated the people selected would have been carefully screened and selected to perform this.  The FBI knows what you ate for breakfast if they wanted to know.  There are satelites in orbit that can see thru roof and see what page you are reading while on the john.  :shock:  :roll:  


Where are you from???   From wherever you are, you concentrate on analyzing and studying your own country. Is that clear? I mean it!  
You don't give here nonsense lessons about American authorities!
Don't forget there are satelites and they can watch your writing too.(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sauer/angry-smiley-032.gif)


Lol, he's right btw. It's public knowledge that the military have this technology. Why do you think Bin Laden hides in a cave :?:   :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 16, 2011, 12:09:19 AM
Quote
AllInGoodTime wrote:
I appreciate your strong-willed comments and think that you make and have made many valid points and arguements in the posts I have read from you. Tho I do not wish to belittle or discredit your opinions, as we all are intitled to them, however with all due respect you are naive if you think this can't happen or doesn't.

I highly doubt if you were approach and told to perform a action from FBI you would refuse. You are 1 of 350 million americans and would not be missed if the FBI felt you were jeopardizing a National Secruity issue. In blink of an eye you would either be in a frozen jail cell in the middle of Alaska, or having conversations with your maker. Oh that's the movies....Where do you think that idea came from to use in the movies? Regardless of TS's is saying about goverments, fact is it happens. Or perhaps a threat against a love one may get you to think different. Seriously what could you really do? Who would you tell of this "personal violation"? And do you think they would believe you or even care? You are powerless to defend yourself. And if you read all of my posts concerning the FBI, I also stated the people selected would have been carefully screened and selected to perform this. The FBI knows what you ate for breakfast if they wanted to know. There are satelites in orbit that can see thru roof and see what page you are reading while on the john. What do you got?

To be more specific with you since you do not know me obviously. I was only referring to your theory that you presented about the way the hoax went down. I am saying that is in movies to that extreme. The real life and fake in movies is always over embellished for entertainment. I do know that some movies tell a mixture of reality. I don't want to turn this into a convo of what I know about the world so I will stop at that.

I am far from being naive. A good majority of my posts deal with warning people of the NWO's agenda. I also post about racism, Satan’s lie, the Ark of the Covenant, etc. The reason I say I am not one to live according to what the Government or the FBI says is because I do not live in fear nor do I live what most would consider an average life.

I won't go into to much detail but most who have been here longer than me and have read my posts know I have a shady illegal past. To answer your statement of if I was approached by the FBI I wouldn't refuse. Damn right I would and again I don't live in fear. I could care less if they know what I had for breakfast. I always am aware of what I type on here. I do so even with the knowledge of being observed. I am a nobody to the Government. I do not pose a threat to them because they have people who refuse to stand up to them like yourself. That is enough for them. As long as myself and others who do stand up to them are seen as naive or crazy I do not pose a threat. I also believe in God and I am here for a very divine reason. I am protected.
;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 16, 2011, 12:16:03 AM
The hoax as I see it and have learned from researching outside of this forum is a World Wide Wake Up Call. I have read every post TIAI has presented. Even if I come to a conclusion of agreement it doesn’t mean I took TS at his word. I do respect everyone’s thoughts, opinions, and theories but in the end I always go by the evidence and not by who presented it.  8-)

That part of the hoax is what we are doing now. That part of the hoax is the world wide lesson when it comes to Murray and his trial. The media influenced and manipulated public opinion in 2005 and many found MJ guilty in a trial by media before he even stepped into a court of law. The same thing is happening now to Murray. There is purposeful media stories leaked to manipulate the public and the media itself is being punked, payback is a bitch. 8-)

MJ’s death hoax is a lesson to the world of how easy it is to manipulate and influence your minds. I fell for it. I believed it, watched the Memorial and cried. I took it for truth. After that I was done with it. I watched no more T.V. regarding MJ and his death. For months I had no clue the hoax existed. One day while on youtube watching everything MJ I felt was necessary to reacquaint myself to the man, I ran across a hoax video of Dave Dave. Instantly that was so obvious it was MJ. I typed into the address bar MJDHI forum. That was a link given in the video. I signed up and went to investigating. ;)

My point in that is what we are doing here now in these threads is important. This is a valuable lesson in discerning truth from fiction. Regardless if we never come to an agreement here, the debate process and theories based on actual evidence and not just opinion is the main point in 2 strong points. Some evidence is actual tangible, can see with your eyes and not just imagine it. Some evidence without that comes down to beyond a reasonable doubt and common sense. This is a pdf to actual CA jury instructions.
http://www.courts.ca.gov/xbcr/partners/ ... uryins.pdf (http://www.courts.ca.gov/xbcr/partners/calcrim_juryins.pdf)
http://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/312.htm (http://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/312.htm)
http://www.courts.ca.gov/966.htm (http://www.courts.ca.gov/966.htm)

The no body theory has not been proven at all. Not even beyond a reasonable doubt or common sense. The theories with an actual body have not been debunked with 2 strong points that make sense. So I am addressing some things that are being repeated. I am providing rebuttal to the following things.  :ugeek:

1. The opinions of FBI doing anything they want to get this done goes against the whole purpose of making sure the people involved were not entrapped. No lines are crossed unnecessarily. However some lines will be crossed in a sting operation. Lies are allowed when a sting operation happens. A scenario is set and criminal minded people who would have under any other scenario, commit the crime. That is the difference in an entrapment vs. sting scene.

Quote
TS_comments wrote:
But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment. “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation;) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment).

If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment. However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment. If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.

2. The autopsy is the way it is because the death was considered a homicide once the body got to the hospital and more details came out. The Improv and somewhat of a scripted acting job Murray did was absolutely necessary to provide the catalyst for the LAPD to get involved. The other agencies that came along after the word got out it was a homicide were for example DEA, to take down the Propofol manufactures and pharmacy that was handing it out like it was Halloween candy.

The coroner did the autopsy according to guidelines set when doing a homicide investigation. There was no need to check fingerprints against real MJ prints because they were not trying to identify a unidentified body. They already knew who they were working on hypothetically. No need for dental records either for the exact same reason. Identification was obtained by the hospital saying it was MJ and then MJ’s CDL was found and looked at. Under other circumstances not involving MJ that would be one way a person would be identified. Then you have the family saying it is so. Do you think the police, the hospital, and the coroner’s office are going to be insensitive and rude by questioning the family’s word? I don’t think so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy#Forensic_autopsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy#Forensic_autopsy)
Quote
Forensic autopsy
A forensic autopsy is used to determine the cause of death. Forensic science involves the application of the sciences to answer questions of interest to the legal system. In United States law, deaths are placed in one of five manners:
Natural
Accident
Homicide
Suicide
Undetermined

In some jurisdictions, the Undetermined category may include deaths in absentia, such as deaths at sea and missing persons declared dead in a court of law; in others, such deaths are classified under "Other". But, medical examiners also attempt to determine the time of death, the exact cause of death, and what, if anything, preceded the death, such as a struggle. A forensic autopsy may include obtaining biological specimens from the deceased for toxicological testing, including stomach contents. Toxicology tests may reveal the presence of one or more chemical "poisons" (all chemicals, in sufficient quantities, can be classified as a poison) and, the quantity of those chemicals. Because post-mortem deterioration of the body, together with the gravitational pooling of bodily fluids, will necessarily alter the bodily environment, toxicology tests may overestimate, rather than underestimate, the quantity of the suspected chemical. http://www.relentlessdefense.com/autopsy.html (http://www.relentlessdefense.com/autopsy.html)

Most states require the State medical examiner to complete an autopsy report and many mandate that the autopsy be videotaped.

Following an in-depth examination of all the evidence, a medical examiner or coroner will assign a manner of death as one of the five listed above, and detail the evidence on the mechanism of the death.

3. The helicopter was offered by the LA County Sheriff’s dept. That is a gesture of kindness to make everything go more smoothly. The UCLA grounds were full of fans and paps. It would have been very hectic for the coroner to get MJ/the body to their office by ground. It also served as more distraction over here while something else was going on over there magic trick aka Illusion. This also drives the idea of MJ being dead further into your subconscious. Media is manipulating you, all the while at the same time they are being manipulated by MJ. viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688#p322159 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688#p322159)
Quote
The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department sent a helicopter to lift Jackson's body from the hospital to the coroner's office, and the California Highway Patrol was on hand to create a traffic break and provide an escort in case the helicopter was unavailable.

4. The body bag is mute because I provided the reason for the sheet in an earlier post. Here it is again.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy#Process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy#Process)
Quote
Process
 The body is received at a medical examiner's office or hospital in a body bag or evidence sheet. A brand new body bag is used for each body to ensure that only evidence from that body is contained within the bag. Evidence sheets are an alternate way to transport the body. An evidence sheet is a sterile sheet that the body is covered in when it is moved.

5. The trial is about to begin and will be televised. Nothing is going to be faked at that point by the witnesses that testify. We will actually get to see their faces and their lips moving. That is when we hear from the witnesses mouth whether what has been printed is either truth or not according to their viewpoints. No more speculating who is who. This is another reason that this thread and the others created by TS are so important. Your detective skills in shifting through the testimonies will be needed. 8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 16, 2011, 12:58:56 AM
To my way of thinking, no finger prints or dental records used to ID the body seems like the biggest clue that there was no body. Surely that is not everyday procedure at LA Coroners, to just take verification from the hospital that this is who they say it is and for fear of offending the family let all protocol slip. Especially when driver's liscenses are easily forged, but a fingerprint is unique.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 16, 2011, 01:39:23 AM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
Quote
curls wrote:
@ Im_convinced, below is taken from Sinderella's summary of Day 3 of the prelim:

viewtopic.php?f=217&t=17067#p293555

Witness #7—Paramedic Martin Blount

Firefighter 20 years. Paramedic 11 years. Working as a paramedic on June 25th, 2009. He was the driver on this call. Once on the property, he was directed in the house and up the stairs.
When he first saw the patient, he was not on the floor; he was in the bed.
Blount identifies the defendant, who identified himself as the patient’s personal physician. Dr. Murray was the one who opened the door and requested help. He noticed that Dr. Murray was sweating profusely. Blount clarifies that when he entered the room, the patient was on the floor. Testifies that he noticed an IV stand in the room. The patient was moved to a better area of the room.
Explains why he was last person in the room. As the driver, he got the gurney out of the back of the ambulance and other gear. His role, as driver, is to be available to the patient, so he positions himself at the patient’s head. He did hear Dr. Murray being asked if the patient had been given any drugs and Dr. Murray said no. Dr. Murray explained that the reason there was an IV was because the patient had been dehydrated.
Hi curls,

Thank you for the link. However there are a few flaws in what has been reported in the summary thread. No offense to Sinderella but how reliable was the info she got? My opinion not very and heres why.
Quote
His role, as driver, is to be available to the patient, so he positions himself at the patient’s head.

This is physically IMPOSSIBLE. Can you explain how Blount can drive the ambulance and also be available to the patient by positioning himself at the patients head? There is no way he can drive, which requires looking forward, being in the front seat and also be in the back of the ambulance facing the backdoor at the patients head.

Of course Blount may have been talking nonsense, this may all be a piece of fiction, but in any case I think you've taken that quote out of context. Blount is referring to his role IN THE BEDROOM not in the ambulance. I imagine each member of any EMT team has a specific role to avoid confusion about who's going to do what when they attend an emergency situation - my understanding of Blount's statement was that he was simply explaining what his role was.

Regarding the reliability of Sinderella's info, I PM'd her about it some time ago, and was satisfied with her answer. (I won't say it here, as it was in PM - of course you can ask her yourself if you're interested.)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 16, 2011, 03:37:44 AM
Quote
blue moon wrote:
Richard Senneff: question: did you have a particular role to play as part of this emergency repsons team. answer: All of our jobs are predetermined. you were the passenger, that’s correct. does that have a meaning who does what. I as the radio man, I have control in information gathering, whehat the most imortant part.

Richard Senneff descripes himself perfectly as the paramedic at the head of MJ in the ambulance picture; question: Where were you in the ambulance? Answer: I was at he heand of the gurney at hthey ehad, between his knees, to keep an eye on his airway, That alows me to be right they near the microphone . I was in the RA, facing th windows, facing bakwards. my back was to the drive. the other two paramedicas werw eht us. Is the picture of the ambulance fake? Than the testimony of Richard is fake.

Q: Another idea he had (Murray), was to administer magnesium.

Senneff: Yes.

Q: They don’t give you all the equipment (medications) as a hospital?

Senneff: That’s correct. Paramedics did not have magnesium on hand. Not part of their standard medication stocking, so all that had to be obtained from the hospital.


Mark goodwin: trying to get an iv in MJ in the bedroom
Wednesday, July 16, 2003 http://www.lafd.org (http://www.lafd.org) Number 29 weekly bulletin of LA firefighters

Dear Chief Bamattre:
Re: Kenton Smith, F/F Paramedic
Mark Goodwin, F/F Paramedic
The medical staff at UCLA MC EMC would like to recognize your
outstanding skills and knowledge in assisting a man in cardiac
arrest. The call came in on May 27th. It was a difficult situation in
that he was in a rare cardiac rhythm called Torsades de Pointes.
It looks similar to ventricular tachycardia. Lidocaine and magnesium
is the treatment of choice. He has had a positive outcome, to
date, and has you to thank. We appreciate your efforts in providing
outstanding care for our community.
Sincerely,
Karen Simonet, PCC
Atilla Uner, MD, MPHMark goodwin was maybe already at the prelim ?(day 2 part c) trials and tribulations

parpmedic for 27 25 with LAFD.

I heard you say earlier that as a parmedic thaty ou don’t have all the discretion that all the things a dr can do. that’s corect I’m not a doctor. to give yourslef you work in a much differne enviroment htan a doctor thati’s corect. you hae to gov oit in he ireld thats’ ture. You hae to go out and i nvieomtn in situatuoins that are directly unpredictable. In fairs to do, he you don’t get any of that. Doctors have a controleld invoronent and a lot of team, that have trined with. our engine company that I train with, we get some of that.
You now tran seasoned paramedics because you’re so good at it/ that’s corect.

Brad herron: firefighter not a paramedic, doing chestcompressions on MJ in bedroom. Maybe he is allowed to do this, but according to their bulletin you get a 3 months education, 5 days a week, before you are a licenced paramedic.

martin blount: driver of ambulance 71, securing an airway in the bedroom, the fifth one in line of the five firefighters who enters the bedroom. Blount observed Dr. Murray in the ambulance take out his cell phone and make a phone call. While working on the patient, Blount heard that it was Michael Jackson and he recognized him as Michael Jackson. At the hospital, he was at the location, restocking his equipment. So Martin Blount was the second paramedic working on MJ in the ambulance. Did we see a black paramedic working on MJ in the ambulance picture? Who drives the ambulance to the hospital. Their job is probably not so predetermined as Sennef said?

Jeffrey Mills: according to his wife he was very busy with the resusication of MJ. But he is only mentioned by Senneff as the fire chief. His wife said that he and the ambulance(crew) were at UCLa till at least 7 o clock in the evening. Why so long? Normally they deliver the patient, fill in the forms and go back to the station waiting for another emergency. I believe there was a briefing between the paramedics, Michael/Jermaine? FBI? Hospital management.
Links to where you got this info is always appreciated. I do know that you included your questions in this text. I can see them. This provides contradictory info regarding Blount's position in the ambulance. The info regarding Mark Goodwin, F/F Paramedic is from a different day and different person. He is a FF/Paramedic though. Jeffery Mills is the Fire Captain that day and I believe he was the driver.

Quote
curls wrote:
Blount is referring to his role IN THE BEDROOM not in the ambulance. I imagine each member of any EMT team has a specific role to avoid confusion about who's going to do what when they attend an emergency situation - my understanding of Blount's statement was that he was simply explaining what his role was.
I see what your saying and according to the info above Senneff is saying the roles are predetermined. How would Blount be able to observe Murray in the ambulance if he was facing forward driving?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 16, 2011, 08:15:45 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "Its her"
There ARE some absolutes on Earth, no figuring required. Just look.

Sickness, especially of children IS immoral (In ANY rational person's book).

It is not the work of God. EVER. Look again.


Maybe it is not the work of God but God allows it.

Like with the hoax, we are not in possesion of all the informations to know who's work it is.

I am not upset, please forgive me if I sounded upset, it's just we know so little that maybe we can't see the WHOLE picture of our existence, in fact it's not a "maybe", it's sure we can't see the whole picture so we have to stay open to everything, no matter how "sick " it seems. Remember when Avram (Abraham in english :? ) was asked by God to sacrifice his own son?
He was about to fulfill this SICK request when he was sttoped by God.

Hi Gina,

You are right. We don't know everything. Hence, the high anxiety, sometimes. I see what you mean.

Maybe this will make you happy: There are 2 rules that apply in Life, but particularly, here, in this Hoax.

First rule of TRUTH seeking, is, Do not believe everything you read (or hear), no matter WHO the "authority" is. There is a chance it could be FICTION, to benefit the speaker/writer. Even the bible says to TEST the spirits. God is big; He can take it.

First rule of FICTION came from MJ himself :D : "...NO THING'S   REAL, ALL IS POSSIBLE, If God is on my side..." :!: (Hoax means Fiction. No real body, but anything else is possible.)

To reply to your comment, God allows, because He must. Man is the authority on Earth, until his lease is up (This is It, maybe, 2012-13?), and God only intervenes when Man humbles himself and asks for Him to takeover. Man doesn't LIKE living under someone else's authority, even for his own good...

To comment on the last thing you said, You're right, again, it was a sick thing to ask of His friend, Abraham; he'd waited 25 years for this child! But God never intended to permit a murder. It was only a TEST of Trust. Abraham passing this test, authorized God to get Jesus (HIS son) into the earth to save the World.

We are being tested every day, in one way or another. Will we trust God or some liar man, or our self-deceiving selves? Every little thing matters, from throwing fast food wraps out of the car, to opening a big door for a little senior lady... I consider myself pretty knowledgeable, but next to God, I know nothing. I need him ;) . We are mostly in the dark, here.

Just a thought, I'm not selling anything: There used to be a GREAT :D  book called, The Purpose Driven Life (What on earth am I here for?) which explains all kinds of Mysteries 8-)  about why God does things and seems so distant, even though he is closer than your heartbeat.

For someone so openly anxious about MJ being dead, all the time, I find you to be one of the wittiest people here!  8-) I was just worried about those giant letters in your post, G. I thought you were shouting from the rooftop! :o  :lol: , so I understand. ;)  Michael Jackson's High Tension Hoax Adventure is driving us to the edge!!  :? Peace, Girl.  :)  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 16, 2011, 11:23:53 AM
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Im-convinced...
I strongly disagree with this. I didn’t quote your whole post but used these statements as an example of someone talking through their own fear. I am not owned by the FBI and I certainly do not think the ones involved in this hoax/sting operation are going to the extreme how you have described. That theory you have painted only exists in movies. It isn’t as bad as you say.

I appreciate your strong-willed comments and think that you make and have made many valid points and arguements in the posts I have read from you.  Tho I do not wish to belittle or discredit your opinions, as we all are intitled to them, however with all due respect  you are naive if you think this can't happen or doesn't.  

I highly doubt if you were approach and told to perform a action from FBI you would refuse.  You are 1 of 350 million americans and would not be missed if the FBI felt you were jeopardizing a National Secruity issue.  In blink of an eye you would either be in a frozen jail cell in the middle of Alaska, or having conversations with your maker.  Oh that's the movies....Where do you think that idea came from to use in the movies?  Regardless of TS's is saying about goverments, fact is it happens.  Or perhaps a threat against a love one may get you to think different.  Seriously what could you really do?  Who would you tell of this "personal violation"?  And do you think they would believe you or even care?  You are powerless to defend yourself.  And if you read all of my posts concerning the FBI, I also stated the people selected would have been carefully screened and selected to perform this.  The FBI knows what you ate for breakfast if they wanted to know.  There are satelites in orbit that can see thru roof and see what page you are reading while on the john.  What do you got?


Yeah Ok.. this is a funny one. FBI can see through satelites and sees what we are doing in our own homes? News for you, not true. Do you have any proofs? If so please send it to us. I am a Canadian, and I have friends in the US WHICH  they work not for the FBI but how about CIA they don't do that. Anyways before writing these types of facts get the proper facts. Blessings.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 16, 2011, 11:40:06 AM
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Im-convinced...
I strongly disagree with this. I didn’t quote your whole post but used these statements as an example of someone talking through their own fear. I am not owned by the FBI and I certainly do not think the ones involved in this hoax/sting operation are going to the extreme how you have described. That theory you have painted only exists in movies. It isn’t as bad as you say.

I appreciate your strong-willed comments and think that you make and have made many valid points and arguements in the posts I have read from you.  Tho I do not wish to belittle or discredit your opinions, as we all are intitled to them, however with all due respect  you are naive if you think this can't happen or doesn't.  

I highly doubt if you were approach and told to perform a action from FBI you would refuse.  You are 1 of 350 million americans and would not be missed if the FBI felt you were jeopardizing a National Secruity issue.  In blink of an eye you would either be in a frozen jail cell in the middle of Alaska, or having conversations with your maker.  Oh that's the movies....Where do you think that idea came from to use in the movies?  Regardless of TS's is saying about goverments, fact is it happens.  Or perhaps a threat against a love one may get you to think different.  Seriously what could you really do?  Who would you tell of this "personal violation"?  And do you think they would believe you or even care?  You are powerless to defend yourself.  And if you read all of my posts concerning the FBI, I also stated the people selected would have been carefully screened and selected to perform this.  The FBI knows what you ate for breakfast if they wanted to know.  There are satelites in orbit that can see thru roof and see what page you are reading while on the john.  What do you got?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: EarthAngel77 on April 16, 2011, 12:29:02 PM
Hello everyone  :P
I have been following this hoax for quite sometime.  And would like to help as much as possible.
First I just want to say that I am no expert on any one thing, but it seems to me that the idea of trying to put this thing together we might have to go back....I mean way back.  If we are trying to think like Mike, we have to think on a grander scale.   He has influence all over the world and has touched shoulders with Queens, Kings and even the Presidents. He has power and we should be well aware of that.  Now it seems to me that Lisa Marie touched on the subject that he knew how he was going to die.   That was like 1992-1994 when thay were married and even after they were divorced they spoke or frequent each other. Which means plenty of time to plan strategies.. and perfect. Think about those periods leading up to this moment.   He was the only person that had whole Armies running behind him so you know the FBI would not have been a problem to lend some help.   Even his children look rehearsed...go back and look at the tapes of them.  Everybody has a different story, but the only story we are missing is Michael himself.  We have to get inside his head and place the heart aside a minute.   He was brilliant well read person.  He studied endlessly and was hands on in Everything...we must remember that.  He is not a victim by any means and he is a the manipulator...but for good reasons. ;)  So does the mean that picture of Mike isn't him. It could be. Staged.  But taken around 1993 as part of the puzzle piece. He could have held on the pic for this moment for the hoax. Like it has been addressed before, timing is everything.  He had 1993-2009 to plan this.  Just sayng...I hope that this doesn't upset anyone.   I am just to help and give different perspective.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 16, 2011, 12:53:53 PM
Quote from: "EarthAngel77"
Hello everyone  :P
I have been following this hoax for quite sometime.  And would like to help as much as possible.
First I just want to say that I am no expert on any one thing, but it seems to me that the idea of trying to put this thing together we might have to go back....I mean way back.  If we are trying to think like Mike, we have to think on a grander scale.   He has influence all over the world and has touched shoulders with Queens, Kings and even the Presidents. He has power and we should be well aware of that.  Now it seems to me that Lisa Marie touched on the subject that he knew how he was going to die.   That was like 1992-1994 when thay were married and even after they were divorced they spoke or frequent each other. Which means plenty of time to plan strategies.. and perfect. Think about those periods leading up to this moment.   He was the only person that had whole Armies running behind him so you know the FBI would not have been a problem to lend some help.   Even his children look rehearsed...go back and look at the tapes of them.  Everybody has a different story, but the only story we are missing is Michael himself.  We have to get inside his head and place the heart aside a minute.   He was brilliant well read person.  He studied endlessly and was hands on in Everything...we must remember that.  He is not a victim by any means and he is a the manipulator...but for good reasons. ;)  So does the mean that picture of Mike isn't him. It could be. Staged.  But taken around 1993 as part of the puzzle piece. He could have held on the pic for this moment for the hoax. Like it has been addressed before, timing is everything.  He had 1993-2009 to plan this.  Just sayng...I hope that this doesn't upset anyone.   I am just to help and give different perspective.

Hello EarthAngel77!  :D Welcome to our family!!! I hope that you will enjoy it here :D
I have to tell you that i was blown by your theory, it's so interesting. I never even thought of that! This is getting better day by day :D
I have to think about it, but he does look on that image like he did in 90s. We were all discussing before that he looked way younger on this pic. (Michael you are still very very beautiful, I love you!) And if the photo was staged before 6/25 why would they make him look younger? I think it would be much more convincing if on the picture he looked the way he does now :?
So thank you again EarthAngel77 for your theory, i have a lot to think about :)

L.O.V.E
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: EarthAngel77 on April 16, 2011, 01:19:11 PM
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
Quote from: "EarthAngel77"
Hello everyone  :P
I have been following this hoax for quite sometime.  And would like to help as much as possible.
First I just want to say that I am no expert on any one thing, but it seems to me that the idea of trying to put this thing together we might have to go back....I mean way back.  If we are trying to think like Mike, we have to think on a grander scale.   He has influence all over the world and has touched shoulders with Queens, Kings and even the Presidents. He has power and we should be well aware of that.  Now it seems to me that Lisa Marie touched on the subject that he knew how he was going to die.   That was like 1992-1994 when thay were married and even after they were divorced they spoke or frequent each other. Which means plenty of time to plan strategies.. and perfect. Think about those periods leading up to this moment.   He was the only person that had whole Armies running behind him so you know the FBI would not have been a problem to lend some help.   Even his children look rehearsed...go back and look at the tapes of them.  Everybody has a different story, but the only story we are missing is Michael himself.  We have to get inside his head and place the heart aside a minute.   He was brilliant well read person.  He studied endlessly and was hands on in Everything...we must remember that.  He is not a victim by any means and he is a the manipulator...but for good reasons. ;)  So does the mean that picture of Mike isn't him. It could be. Staged.  But taken around 1993 as part of the puzzle piece. He could have held on the pic for this moment for the hoax. Like it has been addressed before, timing is everything.  He had 1993-2009 to plan this.  Just sayng...I hope that this doesn't upset anyone.   I am just to help and give different perspective.

Hello EarthAngel77!  :D Welcome to our family!!! I hope that you will enjoy it here :D
I have to tell you that i was blown by your theory, it's so interesting. I never even thought of that! This is getting better day by day :D
I have to think about it, but he does look on that image like he did in 90s. We were all discussing before that he looked way younger on this pic. (Michael you are still very very beautiful, I love you!) And if the photo was staged before 6/25 why would they make him look younger? I think it would be much more convincing if on the picture he looked the way he does now :?
So thank you again EarthAngel77 for your theory, i have a lot to think about :)

L.O.V.E




Thank you for the warm welcome.  I think maybe either he felt no one would question it. 2) He might wanted us to address the picture as a clue, to keep following the Hoax. 3) We haven;t seen Mike in awhile to know for sure what he looks like or 4) Just plain poor planning , which I highly doubt.  We all know that he is a perfectionist.  The man want even eat right until he knows that is done correctly.  So I just keep asking myself from what I do know about him is He is a planner, an analyzer, a scientist, an avid reader.  He knows a alot.  I think we need to get beyond the Man child image of Mike and deal with the man.  He is a force.  This took time.  Like he said They think his mind is always on music and dancing...LOL

Once again I Thank you for you warm welcome....God Bless
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 16, 2011, 01:19:32 PM
Quote from: "EarthAngel77"
Hello everyone  :P
I have been following this hoax for quite sometime.  And would like to help as much as possible.
First I just want to say that I am no expert on any one thing, but it seems to me that the idea of trying to put this thing together we might have to go back....I mean way back.  If we are trying to think like Mike, we have to think on a grander scale.   He has influence all over the world and has touched shoulders with Queens, Kings and even the Presidents. He has power and we should be well aware of that.  Now it seems to me that Lisa Marie touched on the subject that he knew how he was going to die.   That was like 1992-1994 when thay were married and even after they were divorced they spoke or frequent each other. Which means plenty of time to plan strategies.. and perfect. Think about those periods leading up to this moment.   He was the only person that had whole Armies running behind him so you know the FBI would not have been a problem to lend some help.   Even his children look rehearsed...go back and look at the tapes of them.  Everybody has a different story, but the only story we are missing is Michael himself.  We have to get inside his head and place the heart aside a minute.   He was brilliant well read person.  He studied endlessly and was hands on in Everything...we must remember that.  He is not a victim by any means and he is a the manipulator...but for good reasons. ;)  So does the mean that picture of Mike isn't him. It could be. Staged.  But taken around 1993 as part of the puzzle piece. He could have held on the pic for this moment for the hoax. Like it has been addressed before, timing is everything.  He had 1993-2009 to plan this.  Just sayng...I hope that this doesn't upset anyone.   I am just to help and give different perspective.

On the lines of having a pic and saving it...I was thinking about the hyperbaric chamber pics.  (THIS HAS PROB. BEEN COVERED, BUT I'M REIN ITERATING IT)  
I've always believed that Michael was in that chamber because of the burn.  They DO put burn victims in them to excel healing.  The media probably just used it to make him look weird.  But, research it...the pics were at that time.
Look at that pic!!  I think it is the ambulance pic and I think it's a great clue from Michael.  That time in his life...the burn, the beg. of "so called drug addiction", the oxy. chamb. and the names he was called for it.  What a great reason to use that pic for the amb. pic.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 16, 2011, 01:32:49 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "EarthAngel77"
Hello everyone  :P
I have been following this hoax for quite sometime.  And would like to help as much as possible.
First I just want to say that I am no expert on any one thing, but it seems to me that the idea of trying to put this thing together we might have to go back....I mean way back.  If we are trying to think like Mike, we have to think on a grander scale.   He has influence all over the world and has touched shoulders with Queens, Kings and even the Presidents. He has power and we should be well aware of that.  Now it seems to me that Lisa Marie touched on the subject that he knew how he was going to die.   That was like 1992-1994 when thay were married and even after they were divorced they spoke or frequent each other. Which means plenty of time to plan strategies.. and perfect. Think about those periods leading up to this moment.   He was the only person that had whole Armies running behind him so you know the FBI would not have been a problem to lend some help.   Even his children look rehearsed...go back and look at the tapes of them.  Everybody has a different story, but the only story we are missing is Michael himself.  We have to get inside his head and place the heart aside a minute.   He was brilliant well read person.  He studied endlessly and was hands on in Everything...we must remember that.  He is not a victim by any means and he is a the manipulator...but for good reasons. ;)  So does the mean that picture of Mike isn't him. It could be. Staged.  But taken around 1993 as part of the puzzle piece. He could have held on the pic for this moment for the hoax. Like it has been addressed before, timing is everything.  He had 1993-2009 to plan this.  Just sayng...I hope that this doesn't upset anyone.   I am just to help and give different perspective.

On the lines of having a pic and saving it...I was thinking about the hyperbaric chamber pics.  (THIS HAS PROB. BEEN COVERED, BUT I'M REIN ITERATING IT)  
I've always believed that Michael was in that chamber because of the burn.  They DO put burn victims in them to excel healing.  The media probably just used it to make him look weird.  But, research it...the pics were at that time.
Look at that pic!!  I think it is the ambulance pic and I think it's a great clue from Michael.  That time in his life...the burn, the beg. of "so called drug addiction", the oxy. chamb. and the names he was called for it.  What a great reason to use that pic for the amb. pic.

You are correct :)
Michael confirmed on Oprah in 1993 that the picture is real, but he was not sleeping in it for whatever stupid reasons media said. He was in the chamber to fasten the healing proses after the burn.  
I'm not sure though that he used this picture in the ambulance picture :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 16, 2011, 01:41:12 PM
Quote from: "EarthAngel77"
Thank you for the warm welcome.  I think maybe either he felt no one would question it. 2) He might wanted us to address the picture as a clue, to keep following the Hoax. 3) We haven;t seen Mike in awhile to know for sure what he looks like or 4) Just plain poor planning , which I highly doubt.  We all know that he is a perfectionist.  The man want even eat right until he knows that is done correctly.  So I just keep asking myself from what I do know about him is He is a planner, an analyzer, a scientist, an avid reader.  He knows a alot.  I think we need to get beyond the Man child image of Mike and deal with the man.  He is a force.  This took time.  Like he said They think his mind is always on music and dancing...LOL

Once again I Thank you for you warm welcome....God Bless

I don't think that believers take Michael as a "Man child", if we did, i don't think that we'll be here :D We know that Michael is a genius and a highly educated man!!! ;)
This picture was created to be a clue for everybody, but unfortunately only few thousands of his fans took it as a clue. The rest just didn't question it and fell for the trap he created for his enemies.
Do you have any facts which can prove that this picture was taken in 90s?  :)

L.O.V.E to all!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 16, 2011, 01:47:45 PM
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Im-convinced...
I strongly disagree with this. I didn’t quote your whole post but used these statements as an example of someone talking through their own fear. I am not owned by the FBI and I certainly do not think the ones involved in this hoax/sting operation are going to the extreme how you have described. That theory you have painted only exists in movies. It isn’t as bad as you say.

I appreciate your strong-willed comments and think that you make and have made many valid points and arguements in the posts I have read from you.  Tho I do not wish to belittle or discredit your opinions, as we all are intitled to them, however with all due respect  you are naive if you think this can't happen or doesn't.  

I highly doubt if you were approach and told to perform a action from FBI you would refuse.  You are 1 of 350 million americans and would not be missed if the FBI felt you were jeopardizing a National Secruity issue.  In blink of an eye you would either be in a frozen jail cell in the middle of Alaska, or having conversations with your maker.  Oh that's the movies....Where do you think that idea came from to use in the movies?  Regardless of TS's is saying about goverments, fact is it happens.  Or perhaps a threat against a love one may get you to think different.  Seriously what could you really do?  Who would you tell of this "personal violation"?  And do you think they would believe you or even care?  You are powerless to defend yourself.  And if you read all of my posts concerning the FBI, I also stated the people selected would have been carefully screened and selected to perform this.  The FBI knows what you ate for breakfast if they wanted to know.  There are satelites in orbit that can see thru roof and see what page you are reading while on the john.  What do you got?

Holy Moley! You don't know how close you ARE to the truth---or DO ;)  ;)  you? And it is not just the FBI (who mostly are the good guys), but, by satellite, TPTB can read your poker hand!! Well heeled local teams can tell which room you are in inside your house. This is not my opinion.

There is a guy, a fireman, in fact, whose house interior was destroyed with concussion and gas grenades, in the course of his divorce, while his kids were in the house, because an unbalanced sheriff just took a personal dislike to him. Of course, the media got the "official police" press release, a total fabrication, and everyone accepted  :roll: the use of a military tank in the front yard as protocol in divorce proceedings...God Bless America! :?

Even local Law Enforcement have powers to do, or request through channels, ALL the things you see in the movies, and then some. If your failure to cooperate costs them their man, you may even be charged with obstruction of justice.

What is really scary, is that some really dirty characters slip through the cracks & pass the background checks and their psychological exams, all the time, and are invested with all this power! We used to put them in prison every couple years, in my group. The power attracts criminals who feel small, who wish to have the power of carte blanche, no matter what their personal bent, and the blue code keeps stuff under wraps every day until a person of character musters some intestinal fortitude...

It is nothing to be shaking in your boots all day about, but it is TRUE. Believe whatever makes you feel safe. Just a heads up on where we live in 2011. :|
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Elsa on April 16, 2011, 02:05:01 PM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy#Forensic_autopsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy#Forensic_autopsy)

Quote
Forensic autopsy
A forensic autopsy is used to determine the cause of death. Forensic science involves the application of the sciences to answer questions of interest to the legal system. In United States law, deaths are placed in one of five manners:
Natural
Accident
Homicide
Suicide
Undetermined

Im_convincedmjalive, I don't mean to ignore the rest of your post by highlighting just this part - like many people in this thread, you've done a lot of research and its all great to read - I'm still thinking it all through.

I just noticed that the initial letters of each manner of death make the name SHAUN - maybe it explains the use of the admission name Soule Shaun at UCLA.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 16, 2011, 03:03:17 PM
Let me clarify my statements since it has been blown out porportion.  I have not nor wil not critize anyone for their opinion because i don't happen to agree.  If I don't agree or have a legitmate reason as to flaw as what someone might think I would express that but never attack anyone for thoughts.

FBI-  I did not say that is WHAT they do EVERYTIME/DAY.  I said IF, IF, IF they wanted to they would.  Since this hoax took years to plan most likely, guess what, the paramedics probably volunteered to be part and were conviently scheduled together that day.  S ame with the UCLA.  The coroner would understand why this had to be done and as govt official would of complied.  NOT every agency in US is corrupt, but there are time and needs and areas that they all can be.

"see through your roof"-  Thermal imaging folks, seen it personally and it's scary good.  They can see you on the john, reading a book and yes not YET see the page number you are on, but they are close.  Many on the miltary weaponary are equipped with technology, such as missles, drones, etc.  

Again, I am only offering insight to things I actually know about.  Just like when we have question the body in pic being dead for some time, I told you of my experiences as an RN now and what "death" looks like and transpires.  Same with CPR, meds used , autospy lab draws etc.  Most of you don't know those things but did not blast me over that.  Again most of you have not seen the things I have during my Military days and don't know that either.  ANd I don't know "jack" about Photoshopping or  sewing for that matter but if you said that something was possible or whatever cool, learn something new everyday.  Might ask for further explanation but not blast you because I didn't agree.  Because it sounds"sci-fi" doesn't means it is.  Regardless I very disheartened by the days past events and probably won't participate anymore, so good luck to all.  May what we all hope happens , happens.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on April 16, 2011, 03:05:24 PM
I maintain there was no body.  I've said this for months mainly because I don't see why you would need one.  I maintain that MJ was fooling the public, not the authorities.  Therefore a body for their purposes is not necessary.  Clean.  Simple. Everything else can be made up in terms of the temperature of his room, his children viewing the body, autopsy report, funeral arrangements, etc.   Michael loved us too much to have us see him "lying in state" in wax or otherwise and I maintain KF is lying about making up the body for 6-9 hours.  Didn't happen.  It is easy to create these stories if the proper authorities and friends are in on it.

TPTB, which includes the FBI, are capable of doing anything they want to do.  A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G.   Does that mean I have to fall victim in my small sphere of influence in this life?   NO. (I am also not in anyone's way -- at the moment  ;) )  I have power, they have power.  Both of these statements are true.  Sometimes we err by thinking that a duality is always a dichotomy.  In fact here's an example of duality that is not either/or:  Michael Jackson is alive and dead.  :lol:  



Anyway, I was thinking about the "body" being transported from the house to UCLA by ambulance and from UCLA to the coroner's office by helicopter.  I never saw the body move in the helicopter as often cited by others.   But, I was remembering that fateful day and how I felt watching the footage on the news. I was so stricken with grief I'd forgotten, until now, how angry I was when they transported the body from the heli to the ambulance.


Angry because I thought the personnel treated the body so indelicately by grabbing it at the head and almost tossing it like a rag doll :idea:  :idea:  BINGO.  
So, looking at it again, they're not pulling a corpse by the head (never mind how flat the "body" looks) they are treating the "body" that way because nothing is there (or maybe it is a covered rag doll -- loaned to them by MJ from his huge doll collection.  ;) )

See this video at 5:18 and watch how they move the body by the head while it's in the ambulance.  No dead body is wrapped in that sheet.
(p.s. love your posts peacock and allingoodtime)
[youtube:8umen5w2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo[/youtube:8umen5w2]
[/b]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 16, 2011, 03:59:26 PM
Quote
Angry because I thought the personnel treated the body so indelicately by grabbing it at the head and almost tossing it like a rag doll BINGO.
So, looking at it again, they're not pulling a corpse by the head (never mind how flat the "body" looks) they are treating the "body" that way because nothing is there (or maybe it is a covered rag doll -- loaned to them by MJ from his huge doll collection. )



you are right SoldierofLOVE, and also it is possible to be seen clearly the moment in that the man of black trousers and white shirt or brown remove something of of the ambulance
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on April 16, 2011, 05:20:25 PM
Quote from: "paula-c"
Quote
Angry because I thought the personnel treated the body so indelicately by grabbing it at the head and almost tossing it like a rag doll BINGO.
So, looking at it again, they're not pulling a corpse by the head (never mind how flat the "body" looks) they are treating the "body" that way because nothing is there (or maybe it is a covered rag doll -- loaned to them by MJ from his huge doll collection. )



you are right SoldierofLOVE, and also it is possible to be seen clearly the moment in that the man of black trousers and white shirt or brown remove something of of the ambulance

Where is that Paula?  I'm not sure I can see it.  If I'm looking at the right guy, he gets into the back and then comes out.   But, it's weird how they then get in the front of ambo to drive off and then stop and get out, go to the back of ambo again and then drive off.
Also, I said 5:18, but go to about 5:16 or 5:17 to see how they grab "MJ's head" and not just how they grab it but as if the body has absolutely no weight.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 16, 2011, 05:21:18 PM
Quote from: "blue moon"
ill will start my theorie with the autopsie report.

When the autopsy report is not fake, than there have to be a body that died of some illness. But that was not the cause of death.  the propofol and the other meds were. So it has to be (assistend) suicide for psychological problems?
you have a point here.
TS said we were going to analyse what is the ambulance to UCLA but this can't be done without linking everything together.
Maybe it's a good idea to start with the AR.

I don't think it was an assisted suicide.
If there was a body - I think there was a John Doe but in this case, like you say, a real autopsy, would find the real cause of John Doe's death and even if let's say they could filled the dead body with propofol and everything else, the autopsy should have revealed also the real cause of death of John Doe.
Of course if the coroner is in, there is less trouble...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: blue moon on April 16, 2011, 05:24:31 PM
Hi, Im_convincedmjalive


Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
Quote
blue moon wrote:
Richard Senneff: question: did you have a particular role to play as part of this emergency repsons team. answer: All of our jobs are predetermined. you were the passenger, that’s correct. does that have a meaning who does what. I as the radio man, I have control in information gathering, whehat the most imortant part.

Richard Senneff descripes himself perfectly as the paramedic at the head of MJ in the ambulance picture; question: Where were you in the ambulance? Answer: I was at he heand of the gurney at hthey ehad, between his knees, to keep an eye on his airway, That alows me to be right they near the microphone . I was in the RA, facing th windows, facing bakwards. my back was to the drive. the other two paramedicas werw eht us. Is the picture of the ambulance fake? Than the testimony of Richard is fake.



Q: Another idea he had (Murray), was to administer magnesium.

Senneff: Yes.

Q: They don’t give you all the equipment (medications) as a hospital?

Senneff: That’s correct. Paramedics did not have magnesium on hand. Not part of their standard medication stocking, so all that had to be obtained from the hospital.

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-3-part-i.html

During the prelim there was a question about the use of magnesium. "Q: Another idea he (MUrray) had was to administer magnesium". Senneff: "Yes".

Richard Sennef said it was not part of their normal equipment. But this letter shows that it is.

http://www.ci.la.ca.us/LAFD/bulletin/wb2003-29.pdf (http://www.ci.la.ca.us/LAFD/bulletin/wb2003-29.pdf)

Letter of appreciation from UCLA for Mark Goodwin
Dear Chief Bamattre:
Re: Kenton Smith, F/F Paramedic
Mark Goodwin, F/F Paramedic
The medical staff at UCLA MC EMC would like to recognize your
outstanding skills and knowledge in assisting a man in cardiac
arrest. The call came in on May 27th. It was a difficult situation in
that he was in a rare cardiac rhythm called Torsades de Pointes.
It looks similar to ventricular tachycardia. Lidocaine and magnesium
is the treatment of choice
. He has had a positive outcome, to
date, and has you to thank. We appreciate your efforts in providing
outstanding care for our community.
Sincerely,
Karen Simonet, PCC
Atilla Uner, MD, MPH
And I'm sure it is the same Mark Goodwin.


http://millsfamilyhomepage.com/firehouse.html (http://millsfamilyhomepage.com/firehouse.html)

http://[url=http][img]http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/2668/naamloosz.jpg[/img]


http://www.linkedin.com/pub/mark-goodwin/9/998/6aa (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/mark-goodwin/9/998/6aa)
And it is interesting that Mark Goodwin starts his own business in 2010

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/201 ... t-i-c.html (http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-2-part-i-c.html)
parpmedic for 27 25 with LAFD. (possible testimony of Goodwin, thougt it was interesting because it was not clear to me that he gave a testimony at the prelim)

I heard you say earlier that as a parmedic thaty ou don’t have all the discretion that all the things a dr can do. that’s corect I’m not a doctor. to give yourslef you work in a much differne enviroment htan a doctor thati’s corect. you hae to gov oit in he ireld thats’ ture. You hae to go out and i nvieomtn in situatuoins that are directly unpredictable. In fairs to do, he you don’t get any of that. Doctors have a controleld invoronent and a lot of team, that have trined with. our engine company that I train with, we get some of that.
You now tran seasoned paramedics because you’re so good at it/ that’s corect.



Brad herron: firefighter not a paramedic, doing chestcompressions on MJ in bedroom. Maybe he is allowed to do this, but according to their bulletin you get a 3 months education, 5 days a week, before you are a licenced paramedic.

Blount observed Dr. Murray in the ambulance take out his cell phone and make a phone call. While working on the patient Blount heard that it was Michael Jackson and he recognized him as Michael Jackson. At the hospital, he was at the location, restocking his equipment. So Martin Blount was the second paramedic working on MJ in the ambulance. Did we seeBlount observed Dr. Murray in the ambulance take out his cell phone and make a phone call. While working on the patient a black paramedic working on MJ in the ambulance picture? Who drives the ambulance to the hospital. Their job is probably not so predetermined as Sennef said?
according to Senneff  (senneff himself )he was the last emt going in the ambulance with Murray

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/201 ... t-i-c.html (http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-2-part-i-c.html)
 quote "once the patient MJ was placed in ambluance did you have reason to run back upstiars".

"yes I turned around went back upstairs because I dindt’ want to leave any equipment behind". dwhe you went back upstairs  did you see doctor Murray  in the room?. "He was standing on the other side of the bed on the nightstand, and a bag, white plastic trashbag. picking things up".

Senneff secured Mj in the ambulance, than  went back upstairs for equipment, sees Murray upstairs collecting stuff. Murray and Sennef in the back of the ambulance with Blount working on MJ. Sennef said he is at the head of MJ. It is possible that Blount get out of the back of the ambulance and starts driving the ambulance, but he didnt say that.


Jeffrey Mills: according to his wife he was very busy with the resusication of MJ. But he is only mentioned by Senneff as the fire chief. His wife said that he and the ambulance(crew) were at UCLa till at least 7 o clock in the evening. Why so long? Normally they deliver the patient, fill in the forms and go back to the station waiting for another emergency. I believe there was a briefing between the paramedics, Michael/Jermaine? FBI? Hospital management.
Links to where you got this info is always appreciated. I do know that you included your questions in this text. I can see them. This provides contradictory info regarding Blount's position in the ambulance. The info regarding Mark Goodwin, F/F Paramedic is from a different day and different person. He is a FF/Paramedic though. Jeffery Mills is the Fire Captain that day and I believe he was the driver.

Why do you think that Jeff Mills was the driver that day? The strange thing is that he is only mentioned as "fire chief" by Richard Sennef. Only because of his wife's blog we know that he was there.



Quote
curls wrote:
Blount is referring to his role IN THE BEDROOM not in the ambulance. I imagine each member of any EMT team has a specific role to avoid confusion about who's going to do what when they attend an emergency situation - my understanding of Blount's statement was that he was simply explaining what his role was.
I see what your saying and according to the info above Senneff is saying the roles are predetermined. How would Blount be able to observe Murray in the ambulance if he was facing forward driving?

It seems to me that he isn't driving to the hospital
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: anewfan on April 16, 2011, 05:26:16 PM
Maybe TS wants us to focus on Marlon's stache. Anybody see any clues in there?  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 16, 2011, 05:28:18 PM
I don't think assisted suicide either.  But, it could've been someone on life support couldn't it?  They just used the date to fit with the numbers to unplug?  That or try to bring around a dead person and people not knowing.  Or a dummy and no one noticing.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 16, 2011, 05:56:48 PM
If there was a real corpse, than assisted suicide is the only option. No other death can be planned like that.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: blue moon on April 16, 2011, 06:01:49 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "blue moon"
ill will start my theorie with the autopsie report.

When the autopsy report is not fake, than there have to be a body that died of some illness. But that was not the cause of death.  the propofol and the other meds were. So it has to be (assistend) suicide for psychological problems?
you have a point here.
TS said we were going to analyse what is the ambulance to UCLA but this can't be done without linking everything together.
Maybe it's a good idea to start with the AR.


I don't think it was an assisted suicide.
If there was a body - I think there was a John Doe but in this case, like you say, a real autopsy, would find the real cause of John Doe's death and even if let's say they could filled the dead body with propofol and everything else, the autopsy should have revealed also the real cause of death of John Doe.
Of course if the coroner is in, there is less trouble...

 Hi GINAFELICIA,
 
And according to the AR they took the fingerprints. So one way or the other the coronor finds out that it is not MJ.

That was one of my questions while reading the AR. Is it possible that you pump, by doing cpr,  the propofol and the other meds not only in the vains, but also in the organs and the eyes? I also have read that when you are for a long time on propofol that the urine turns green. In the AR they said that the urine in the body and in the sac behind the chair was clear.

I still think they diddnt use a dead body, at least not for the coroner. And that the AR is fake.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 16, 2011, 06:06:31 PM
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Let me clarify my statements since it has been blown out porportion.  I have not nor wil not critize anyone for their opinion because i don't happen to agree.  If I don't agree or have a legitmate reason as to flaw as what someone might think I would express that but never attack anyone for thoughts.

FBI-  I did not say that is WHAT they do EVERYTIME/DAY.  I said IF, IF, IF they wanted to they would.  Since this hoax took years to plan most likely, guess what, the paramedics probably volunteered to be part and were conviently scheduled together that day.  S ame with the UCLA.  The coroner would understand why this had to be done and as govt official would of complied.  NOT every agency in US is corrupt, but there are time and needs and areas that they all can be.

"see through your roof"-  Thermal imaging folks, seen it personally and it's scary good.  They can see you on the john, reading a book and yes not YET see the page number you are on, but they are close.  Many on the miltary weaponary are equipped with technology, such as missles, drones, etc.  

Again, I am only offering insight to things I actually know about.  Just like when we have question the body in pic being dead for some time, I told you of my experiences as an RN now and what "death" looks like and transpires.  Same with CPR, meds used , autospy lab draws etc.  Most of you don't know those things but did not blast me over that.  Again most of you have not seen the things I have during my Military days and don't know that either.  ANd I don't know "jack" about Photoshopping or  sewing for that matter but if you said that something was possible or whatever cool, learn something new everyday.  Might ask for further explanation but not blast you because I didn't agree.  Because it sounds"sci-fi" doesn't means it is.  Regardless I very disheartened by the days past events and probably won't participate anymore, so good luck to all.  May what we all hope happens , happens.

Hi AllInGoodTime,

PLEASE don't leave because someone blasted you! I really appreciate knowing the things you have spoken about. Instead of us Googling all our research, I LIKE to hear it from a live FIELD professional (ESPECIALLY one with battlescars) whom we can actually examine if we don't understand something!!

Please don't be disheartened. :(  Don't.

Things frequently  get hot in these threads. Some people are very young and some are too old to be so unpracticed in traditional social etiquette, let alone anonymous social interaction, online. :shock:

Some people are overworked, and under-rested, yet can't tear themselves away from this website!! ;)

Some people are simply Pharisees whose first instinct is to slice people up, very smugly. It's not fun when the inhospitable show their teeth. Their day is coming. Let it go, now and stay here.  :)

This WHOLE thing, drawing  :D all of us in, to dialog and interACT, and act up with one another, here, is probably mostly a "taking of temperature", of how society REALLY is, for Someone, who hasn't gotten to see warts like THIS, in his regular life, because everyone is so FAKE----too interested in impressing him with their "perfection" :P  :P  :P  :lol: .Yeah, he's seen it all over the web--but HIS fans, too?? Surprise! :lol:

If you stay, you win! It means you survived your psychological hazing, grew some of that Rhino skin MJ used to talk about. Take things personally? Consider the source and DON'T. You are welcome here.

I look at it this way, it was probably, just your turn  :roll: . Join the club.  :shock: But, NO one can discount YOUR personal experience or training. Just LAUGH. Boy, I sure do!! (ungrateful, bon bon eating Bees) :lol:  It will probably be my turn soon, again. Hide and watch.  

Sorry! if that sounds scary...I endeavor to "follow after peace", but it doesn't mean I don't enjoy it when the insulted get to actually fire off an apropos round, there, before someone (really) HAS to break it up. It must be just a reflex from your training. No harm no foul. Just please check in sometimes and keep up?  :)

I'm making certain you get this. :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: blue moon on April 16, 2011, 06:28:15 PM
Hi Souza,

Quote from: "~Souza~"
If there was a real corpse, than assisted suicide is the only option. No other death can be planned like that.

I know you are right about that. But I'm breaking my head about if it is really nececcary for the hoax  to use a dead body for the paramedics. I don't believe it is nececcary for the coronor.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 16, 2011, 07:55:43 PM
Quote from: "blue moon"
Hi, Im_convincedmjalive


Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
Quote
blue moon wrote:
Richard Senneff: question: did you have a particular role to play as part of this emergency repsons team. answer: All of our jobs are predetermined. you were the passenger, that’s correct. does that have a meaning who does what. I as the radio man, I have control in information gathering, whehat the most imortant part.

Richard Senneff descripes himself perfectly as the paramedic at the head of MJ in the ambulance picture; question: Where were you in the ambulance? Answer: I was at he heand of the gurney at hthey ehad, between his knees, to keep an eye on his airway, That alows me to be right they near the microphone . I was in the RA, facing th windows, facing bakwards. my back was to the drive. the other two paramedicas werw eht us. Is the picture of the ambulance fake? Than the testimony of Richard is fake.



Q: Another idea he had (Murray), was to administer magnesium.

Senneff: Yes.

Q: They don’t give you all the equipment (medications) as a hospital?

Senneff: That’s correct. Paramedics did not have magnesium on hand. Not part of their standard medication stocking, so all that had to be obtained from the hospital.

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-3-part-i.html

During the prelim there was a question about the use of magnesium. "Q: Another idea he (MUrray) had was to administer magnesium". Senneff: "Yes".

Richard Sennef said it was not part of their normal equipment. But this letter shows that it is.

http://www.ci.la.ca.us/LAFD/bulletin/wb2003-29.pdf (http://www.ci.la.ca.us/LAFD/bulletin/wb2003-29.pdf)

Letter of appreciation from UCLA for Mark Goodwin
Dear Chief Bamattre:
Re: Kenton Smith, F/F Paramedic
Mark Goodwin, F/F Paramedic
The medical staff at UCLA MC EMC would like to recognize your
outstanding skills and knowledge in assisting a man in cardiac
arrest. The call came in on May 27th. It was a difficult situation in
that he was in a rare cardiac rhythm called Torsades de Pointes.
It looks similar to ventricular tachycardia. Lidocaine and magnesium
is the treatment of choice
. He has had a positive outcome, to
date, and has you to thank. We appreciate your efforts in providing
outstanding care for our community.
Sincerely,
Karen Simonet, PCC
Atilla Uner, MD, MPH
And I'm sure it is the same Mark Goodwin.


http://millsfamilyhomepage.com/firehouse.html (http://millsfamilyhomepage.com/firehouse.html)

http://[url=http][img]http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/2668/naamloosz.jpg[/img]


http://www.linkedin.com/pub/mark-goodwin/9/998/6aa (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/mark-goodwin/9/998/6aa)
And it is interesting that Mark Goodwin starts his own business in 2010

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/201 ... t-i-c.html (http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-2-part-i-c.html)
parpmedic for 27 25 with LAFD. (possible testimony of Goodwin, thougt it was interesting because it was not clear to me that he gave a testimony at the prelim)

I heard you say earlier that as a parmedic thaty ou don’t have all the discretion that all the things a dr can do. that’s corect I’m not a doctor. to give yourslef you work in a much differne enviroment htan a doctor thati’s corect. you hae to gov oit in he ireld thats’ ture. You hae to go out and i nvieomtn in situatuoins that are directly unpredictable. In fairs to do, he you don’t get any of that. Doctors have a controleld invoronent and a lot of team, that have trined with. our engine company that I train with, we get some of that.
You now tran seasoned paramedics because you’re so good at it/ that’s corect.



Brad herron: firefighter not a paramedic, doing chestcompressions on MJ in bedroom. Maybe he is allowed to do this, but according to their bulletin you get a 3 months education, 5 days a week, before you are a licenced paramedic.

Blount observed Dr. Murray in the ambulance take out his cell phone and make a phone call. While working on the patient Blount heard that it was Michael Jackson and he recognized him as Michael Jackson. At the hospital, he was at the location, restocking his equipment. So Martin Blount was the second paramedic working on MJ in the ambulance. Did we seeBlount observed Dr. Murray in the ambulance take out his cell phone and make a phone call. While working on the patient a black paramedic working on MJ in the ambulance picture? Who drives the ambulance to the hospital. Their job is probably not so predetermined as Sennef said?
according to Senneff  (senneff himself )he was the last emt going in the ambulance with Murray

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/201 ... t-i-c.html (http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2011/01/dr-conrad-murray-prelim-day-2-part-i-c.html)
 quote "once the patient MJ was placed in ambluance did you have reason to run back upstiars".

"yes I turned around went back upstairs because I dindt’ want to leave any equipment behind". dwhe you went back upstairs  did you see doctor Murray  in the room?. "He was standing on the other side of the bed on the nightstand, and a bag, white plastic trashbag. picking things up".

Senneff secured Mj in the ambulance, than  went back upstairs for equipment, sees Murray upstairs collecting stuff. Murray and Sennef in the back of the ambulance with Blount working on MJ. Sennef said he is at the head of MJ. It is possible that Blount get out of the back of the ambulance and starts driving the ambulance, but he didnt say that.


Jeffrey Mills: according to his wife he was very busy with the resusication of MJ. But he is only mentioned by Senneff as the fire chief. His wife said that he and the ambulance(crew) were at UCLa till at least 7 o clock in the evening. Why so long? Normally they deliver the patient, fill in the forms and go back to the station waiting for another emergency. I believe there was a briefing between the paramedics, Michael/Jermaine? FBI? Hospital management.
Links to where you got this info is always appreciated. I do know that you included your questions in this text. I can see them. This provides contradictory info regarding Blount's position in the ambulance. The info regarding Mark Goodwin, F/F Paramedic is from a different day and different person. He is a FF/Paramedic though. Jeffery Mills is the Fire Captain that day and I believe he was the driver.

Why do you think that Jeff Mills was the driver that day? The strange thing is that he is only mentioned as "fire chief" by Richard Sennef. Only because of his wife's blog we know that he was there.



Quote
curls wrote:
Blount is referring to his role IN THE BEDROOM not in the ambulance. I imagine each member of any EMT team has a specific role to avoid confusion about who's going to do what when they attend an emergency situation - my understanding of Blount's statement was that he was simply explaining what his role was.
I see what your saying and according to the info above Senneff is saying the roles are predetermined. How would Blount be able to observe Murray in the ambulance if he was facing forward driving?

It seems to me that he isn't driving to the hospital

viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=323067#p323067 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=323067#p323067)
Quote
This was a process of input by 2good2btrue providing the pictures of the paramedics and the roster list. Then Grace mentioned Jefferey Mills. That was my first time being aware of him. I did some research and found the info I needed to come to a conclusion. After the full potential witness list came out when the questionnaire was released; Jefferey Mills Fire Captain was confirmed as being there on 6/25/2009 and it wasn't just my opinion or theory anymore. I hope the info here will help you.  
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=850#p317061
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=850#p317143
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=875#p317232
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=875#p317239
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=900#p317378
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=900#p317570
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=925#p317625

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2) ... spita.html

Senneff said that the ambulance driver had trouble navigating away from the residence because of a throng that included passengers of a tour bus and photographers with “big cameras, little cameras, video cameras, still cameras.”

At one point, a man with a video camera ran alongside the ambulance holding a camera with a large lens against the window. “It just seemed wrong,” he said. Under questioning by a defense lawyer, Senneff said Murray wanted to put a “central line” to restart Jackson’s heart, but that medics did not have equipment or training to do so.

Judge Michael Pastor also heard from a second paramedic who, like Senneff, said that Murray initially claimed he had not given his patient any medication.

Martin Blount said the denial struck him as odd because he saw a hypodermic needle and three bottles of lidocaine in the room. Murray, he said, “scooped up” the bottles and placed them in a bag before they left for the hospital. “Did you ever see those bottles again,” Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren asked. “No, sir,” Blount replied. Murray, 57, has pleaded not guilty.
blue moon,

I have read The Mills family blog before. I looked at Jeffery's face and head to try and determine if he was in the photo in front of the ER doors wheeling in the stretcher. I am not seeing him in there unless he was already inside the doors out of camera view or he has put a hair peice on. lol

I understand this is frustrating trying to pinpoint who was in the room, who drove, and who was in the back but by process of elimination and paying attention to certain things that each of them have said I have figured out at a minimum the 2 in back. Blount and Senneff. I know Jefferey Mills is Fire Captain based on the roster pics in the links I posted above. I know he was there because of his wife's blog but also because he is now on the potential witness list. If he didn't go there or have anything to possible contribute he would not be listed. I believe he didn't testify at the pre-lim because his input would not really make the difference at that point on whether there was enough evidence to take Murray to trial.

The 2 that were testifying at pre-lim gave the evidence needed to take Murray to trial based on them working on MJ/body at the scene and in the back of the ambulance.

The firemen left at the scene have been shown to have not drove the ambulance by the video evidence from Hollywood tv.

I reposted my earlier comment to links that will show you the process of how I came to my conclusion. The new names now coming out are something else to now have to consider. The problem with the pre-lim info is this is an interpretation of what happened in the court room according to those who were there. Just like some people's words are taken out of context and twisted by the media, I view these notes with a grain of salt. I have to filter them through my mind and see if what they say matches anything else I find as evidence. Thank you for your reply.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 16, 2011, 09:12:11 PM
Quote
SoldierofLOVE » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:20 pm

    paula-c wrote:

        Angry because I thought the personnel treated the body so indelicately by grabbing it at the head and almost tossing it like a rag doll BINGO.
        So, looking at it again, they're not pulling a corpse by the head (never mind how flat the "body" looks) they are treating the "body" that way because nothing is there (or maybe it is a covered rag doll -- loaned to them by MJ from his huge doll collection. )




    you are right SoldierofLOVE, and also it is possible to be seen clearly the moment in that the man of black trousers and white shirt or brown remove something of of the ambulance



Where is that Paula? I'm not sure I can see it. If I'm looking at the right guy, he gets into the back and then comes out. But, it's weird how they then get in the front of ambo to drive off and then stop and get out, go to the back of ambo again and then drive off.
Also, I said 5:18, but go to about 5:16 or 5:17 to see how they grab "MJ's head" and not just how they grab it but as if the body has absolutely no weight.

I not that happens now, cannot see the video :roll:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 16, 2011, 09:16:34 PM
Here is some information below I feel is relevant. Since this topic has some what gone way away from the original focus of how to investigate and is now based primarily on people’s opinions, assumptions, emotions and not providing evidence to back up claims. This doesn't apply to everyone. No theory against the no body used has been stated with strong evidence.

I am going to address why I feel a real body was used. The fact that the coroner’s office, LAPD, DEA, UCLA, etc. were involved doesn’t necessarily place them in the good category or even being in the know of the hoax. Given LAPD’s past history of corruption they may have been included in the sting operation to see how they would handle this investigation. In the process some other people may have also been looked at. The fact that LAPD took so long to start the investigation, let the family go in the house before considering it a homicide scene is one point to say they are still flawed.

The fact that even though Michael has influence in high places doesn’t take away the possibility that some of the people involved in this investigation of his death may not have a very good opinion of him. The Santa Barbara sheriffs raided his house more than once in the process of trying to take him down. Evidence was fabricated. They took humiliating photos of him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._ ... estigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Jackson#Santa_Barbara_County_Sheriff.27s_Department_investigation)

They coerced witnesses to lie. Michael suffered police brutality. These are facts known and I take that into consideration that during this hoax the whole system of law enforcement may have been a target for testing.

Same thing could be said of the court system. The coroner’s office may have fallen victim of the scrutiny also to see if they would do their job correctly.

Evidence in OJ Simpson’s case by Mark Fuhrman a police officer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuhrman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuhrman)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuhrm ... rder_trial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuhrman#Role_in_O.J._Simpson_murder_trial)

http://karisable.com/crime.htm (http://karisable.com/crime.htm)
http://karisable.com/crlebclapd.htm (http://karisable.com/crlebclapd.htm)
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/08/l ... dal/?urls= (http://edition.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/08/lapd.corruption.scandal/?urls=)
LAPD corruption investigation to result in few charges
Quote
November 8, 2001 Posted: 10:42 AM EST (1542 GMT)
LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- The criminal investigation into alleged widespread corruption in the Los Angeles Police Department is expected to conclude by December with no further prosecutions, Los Angeles District Attorney Steve Cooley said.

Since the corruption probe began nearly four years ago, eight officers have been charged with criminal misconduct. More than 70 officers in the LAPD's Rampart Division faced allegations of planting drugs and guns on suspects, fabricating arrest reports, beating suspects in custody and in some cases shooting unarmed, innocent people during gang sweeps.

"We are in the process of reviewing 45 cases, but we don't anticipate there will be additional charges filed," said Jane Robison, Cooley's spokeswoman.

Most of the cases involving alleged misconduct will be dismissed because of insufficient evidence or because the statute of limitations expired, sources said.

Revelations of alleged misconduct emerged after former officer Rafael Perez was caught stealing eight pounds of cocaine from a police evidence room in March 1998. Perez, who entered a plea agreement with state prosecutors, was granted state immunity in exchange for his cooperation in the corruption probe.

After more than 4,000 pages of sworn testimony, Perez described how officers in the anti-gang unit framed dozens of innocent people during gang raids west of downtown Los Angeles.

In one case that defined the magnitude of corruption, Perez described how he and his former partner, Nino Durden, shot Javier Francisco Ovando multiple times and conspired to cover up the shooting by planting a gun on him.

Ovando, paralyzed from the shooting, was convicted of assaulting the officers and sentenced to prison. He was released after investigators concluded that the shooting was unjustified. After serving three years in prison, Ovando sued the city of Los Angeles and settled the largest civil lawsuit in city history, $15 million.

In March, Durden entered a plea deal with state and federal prosecutors stemming from the Ovando shooting and other charges. Federal authorities have opened a separate investigation into the Rampart corruption scandal, including possible civil rights violations against Perez for his role in the Ovando shooting.

Durden is expected to serve at least seven years and eight months in state prison when he is sentenced. Perez was released from a five-year prison term in July.
The scandal has led to more than 100 criminal convictions being overturned. The city of Los Angeles also signed a consent decree with the U.S. Justice Department requiring federal oversight of the police department's management and training policies.

The city has paid over $30 million dollars in civil lawsuits related to the corruption scandal, but some city officials estimate the costs could exceed $125 million when the remaining cases are settled.

On Wednesday, Cooley outlined a series of written protocols to investigate allegations of corruption, including a Justice System Integrity Division to review cases involving probable cause against officers and a response team to investigate any officer involved shooting or in custody deaths on the scene.

"Never before in the 151-year history of the district attorney's office has that office issued written protocols which outline how, when and under what circumstances prosecutors will investigate allegations of criminal misconduct by law enforcement employees," Cooley said.
Had such a mechanism been in place earlier, Cooley said it "would have probably led to the early detection of disgraced former Officer Rafael Perez."
-- From CNN Producer Stanley Wilson

http://karisable.com/crlebcfbi.htm (http://karisable.com/crlebcfbi.htm)

Instead of making another post I am including another issue that is being blown out of proportion. Instead of focusing on the discussion of the purpose of this thread people are responding to comments that were made and resolved between me and AllInGoodTime through PM. It was asked by Souza not to keep going on about this issue on the open forum.

I respected that and made my peace with him the way I felt necessary. As far as I am concerned we are cool. I understand what he is saying in his last post as he wasn’t disrespecting or crtisizing me personally but disagreed with what I had said based on the fact that he did not know my real opinions because that wasn’t the topic and I felt it wasn’t necessary for me to go into depth of what I know. I am very aware of what he said is true.

My opinion though is that continuing in that direction of possibly creating fear instead of focusing on the topic, I tried to deter the topic by saying what I did. The comments after the fact by others drawing attention to him saying I was naïve is what he was referring to as him not being disrespectful or critisizing me. Like he said it was blown way out of proportion. IMO adding more fuel to a fire that was extinguished is unnecessary and not productive to the investigation it only distracts people.


Quote
AllInGoodTime wrote:
Let me clarify my statements since it has been blown out porportion. I have not nor wil not critize anyone for their opinion because i don't happen to agree. If I don't agree or have a legitmate reason as to flaw as what someone might think I would express that but never attack anyone for thoughts.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 16, 2011, 09:19:38 PM
The "body" looks like it has weight to it when he hefts it. He picks it up by the knot tied in the sheet which is at the head. Looks legit to me :?  :?:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: navibl on April 16, 2011, 09:47:13 PM
My Two Cents Worth.
First the goal is to have as few people involved as possible.  No body, would require a lot more people than having a body.

Second, someone on life support would be a very plyable option. The reason life support seems reasonable is because the first reports said Michael was in a coma, with no brain activity.  This would be the case with someone on life support. They usually are brain dead due to deep coma.  The patient could be kept alive as long as necessary on life support.

Third, it is  certainly possible that a family loved Michael so dearly as to offer to do this, being there was
a family member that was terminally ill.  Michael did have people that loved him to such extent.  Look at the Casios, it could have just as well been one of their family members staged to look simular to Michael that was dying.

God Bless Us All
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 16, 2011, 10:27:01 PM
Quote from: "navibl"
My Two Cents Worth.
First the goal is to have as few people involved as possible.  No body, would require a lot more people than having a body.

Second, someone on life support would be a very plyable option. The reason life support seems reasonable is because the first reports said Michael was in a coma, with no brain activity.  This would be the case with someone on life support. They usually are brain dead due to deep coma.  The patient could be kept alive as long as necessary on life support.

Third, it is  certainly possible that a family loved Michael so dearly as to offer to do this, being there was
a family member that was terminally ill.  Michael did have people that loved him to such extent.  Look at the Casios, it could have just as well been one of their family members staged to look simular to Michael that was dying.

God Bless Us All

That is true...I think what TS means by that is the fewer people the better...so only those who are necessary to the hoax...I think TS kinda tried to confuse us with this statement to make us think that only a few people are involved...I think MJ only tried to minimize it as best he could, if he used no body.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MissG on April 17, 2011, 09:28:14 AM
16 pages!!!!???  :shock:

*rtrl*
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 17, 2011, 09:39:35 AM
Quote from: "navibl"
My Two Cents Worth.
First the goal is to have as few people involved as possible.  No body, would require a lot more people than having a body.

Second, someone on life support would be a very plyable option. The reason life support seems reasonable is because the first reports said Michael was in a coma, with no brain activity.  This would be the case with someone on life support. They usually are brain dead due to deep coma.  The patient could be kept alive as long as necessary on life support.

Third, it is  certainly possible that a family loved Michael so dearly as to offer to do this, being there was
a family member that was terminally ill.  Michael did have people that loved him to such extent.  Look at the Casios, it could have just as well been one of their family members staged to look simular to Michael that was dying.

God Bless Us All

Thank YOU for expanding on my thoughts.  It's wonderful when someone agrees with you and can help you to develop your ideas.  Truly, I want to THANK YOU.  Great thoughts :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 17, 2011, 10:50:00 AM
The more deviation from "standard" operations for people who are not participating in planning, the more questionmarks, non-disclosure agreements and difficulties like leaks.

Remember the bee hives upon arrival at the hospital and at the coroner's.
Getting in and out, closing doors, opening them, closing half, opening again.
A hospital, a coroner's regular staff receiving "no body" will notice that this an "off standard" situation. Therefore: yes, a body.

If however regular personnel has been replaced by actors just for the sake of having folks there doing something looking like professionals, everybody is in the know that it's a movie and will not wonder if there's no body. Therefore: no, no body.

It really depends on the storybook "how".

However, we have seen a "body" getting thinner during the heli flight from UCLA to the coroner. So it could have been a pumped-up plastic doll that lost air during transport?

In the coroner's van, the white sheet was taken away as far as we could identify what they did in the van. I don't know if one needs to take away a sheet from a dead person before the body would be transferred to the autopsy room. I would consider this behaviour to not be appropriate.
Exceptions:
1) if it were a plastic doll - removing the sheet would be a maneuver to put things away (but establishing an order would not be truely necessary at that moment).
2) if it were a living person who was covered - removing the sheet would be a gesture of politeness.
3) if there were no body (but: they lifted some weight around).

So we still don't know what or who was transported.

I would stick to logic:
the less in the know the better.
Therefore: not 100 actors for a public movie production with a plastic doll or a dummy.

The less witnesses for an "off-standard" situation, the better. So go with a standard situation.
"On-standard" situation is that there is a body (or something that looks like a body) arriving at a hospital and a coroner's office.
So: a real body.
UCLA is home to a body donation program.

Btw. UCLA has a parking garage underneath the emergency level.
Come in, get replaced by a donated body, take the staff elevators and leave.
[attachment=1:38il3jsl]uclahealth_level1.jpg[/attachment:38il3jsl]

[attachment=0:38il3jsl]uclahealth_levelP.jpg[/attachment:38il3jsl]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 17, 2011, 11:35:51 AM
True Grace, what came out of UCLA via Helicopter need not be what went into UCLA via stretcher gif.

I think it was  Michael himself via stretcher gif. TMZ ran an article in early 2010 with a headline that said MJ was alive at UCLA. That goes along with Michael sitting up on the stretcher as seen in the gif. Some say that was debunked because of legs... I've looked a thousand times and my eyes don't see legs that aren't attached to a person accounted for in the pic that isn't Michael. 4 pics of the stretcher entering UCLA were released originally in fall of 2009... then a couple weeks later 3 more pics of the scene were released to fill in the gaps to create the gif... and those 3 frames showed Michael's face/ear/ponytail... 7 pics in total to create that gif... that's a hell of a coincidence... but I digress. (or do I)

I sure think it would be fun if the "body" was MJ himself all along, culminating in MJ jumping out of the coroner van at the end. Fun most definitely, perhaps not realistic, but the stuff of a movie for sure.

If this is a movie, in my opinion after 22 months of research and live time observations of it all, The above Scenario is what happened on screen. What happened after they said "cut" on each scene only our imagination can satisfy for now.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on April 17, 2011, 01:52:24 PM
Bec, it’ll be the greatest movie EVER!

Bec wrote:
Quote
I sure think it would be fun if the "body" was MJ himself all along, culminating in MJ jumping out of the coroner van at the end. Fun most definitely, perhaps not realistic, but the stuff of a movie for sure.

Yes, fun and excitement for sure and I think realistic too. Why not? The “leaked” video with MJ jumping out of the coroner van was definitely part of the whole scenario. The leaked video was intentionally leaked, a little part of the puzzle for a start.

Grace wrote:
Quote
So: a real body.
UCLA is home to a body donation program.

Btw. UCLA has a parking garage underneath the emergency level.
Come in, get replaced by a donated body, take the staff elevators and leave.

My thoughts are also leaning towards the scenario that MJ switched with a donated body. Nobody in the UCLA corridors will notice the difference. I mean the body has undoubtedly a posture similar to MJ. What about the donated body, which is missing according to records. I'm sure MJ had people who were taking care of this too. Perhaps, the “body”person, was terminally ill and had a body donation agreement with MJ. May be this doesn’t make sense at all, though indeed good stuff for a movie ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 17, 2011, 06:39:10 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
If there was a real corpse, than assisted suicide is the only option. No other death can be planned like that.

Souza,

I do agree that the assisted suicide is a very real plausable theory but not the only option to have a real body used on a planned death date. The fact that cadavers are stored for up to 6 months allows for the planned death date. Also the fact that refrigeration slows down decomp and the cadavers can be used for up to 10 hours at a time makes it possible to have enough time to stage the scene in the room before decomp set in.

They had plenty advance time to add certain features to the corpse like the wig, eyebrow, hairline, lip tattoos to make it more believable it was MJ. That wouldn't be done on the day of death but before hand. The body stayed kept on ice until needed.

They had enough time to find a suitable corpse to match almost his known illness of vitiligo. They couldn't make everything perfect because some absent things from the body were needed to provide suspicion it wasn't MJ.

The advancement of what can be done on a cadaver allows them to add what they needed [drugs] to inside of the body. They had enough time to make the body feel warm to make it seem as though it recently died. The heated room slowed down the process of the body cooling. It stayed the temp of the room providing more evidence it was fresh.

This cadaver was made up to look like a hospice patient by the room atmosphere of what was found and the paramedics statements. That also helped to fuel the already suspicion MJ was ill. It also provided credibility to the stories out there about him going to die in 6 months, being in a wheelchair, etc.

There is the issue of unclaimed/unidentified/or left there by loved ones and what to do with them. The cadavers are used for research anyways so why not for a hoax.
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=323187#p323187 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=323187#p323187)
Quote
They refrigerate the body. This method allows for the cadaver to be used for periods of 10 hours at a time for study/research. http://www.sccvote.org/SCC/docs/Public (http://www.sccvote.org/SCC/docs/Public)% ... ent%20(DEP)/attachments/APC-HSC%20Ch2%20Mass%20Fatality%20Considerations.pdf

Body decomposition slows once remains are placed in cold storage (between 37–42 degrees Fahrenheit). Bodies can be stored for up to 6 months in refrigerated storage, which may provide Medical Examiner/Coroner and funeral directors enough time to process all bodies in accordance with jurisdictional standards and traditional public expectations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20586093 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20586093)

The demand for laboratory-based teaching and training is increasing worldwide as medical training and education confront the pressures of shorter training time and rising costs. This article presents a cost-effective perfusion technique that extends the useful life of fresh tissue. Refrigerated cadavers are preserved in their natural state for up to 45 days with a daily working period of ten hours. Tissues maintain their color and natural consistency throughout this period. This new process for preservation of tissue opens the door to improved surgical training and to numerous research opportunities.
There is the theory that the oxygen tank was planted and found after the family had gone to the house. According to E. Fleak’s medical evidence report 3A of what she found that day 6/25/2009. Included was a green oxygen tank.

Now that provides me more evidence to a theory I found out can be done. Oxygen can be forced into the lungs of a cadaver. That lets me know that is why the coroner was able to perform the autopsy on the cadaver. The oxygen forced into the lungs and body made it appear that it was a fresh death. The oxygen revived tissues if the cadaver used was preserved in it’s natural state. Below is to a link that explains how a cadaver is preserved for use of teaching. http://www.morgancc.edu/faculty/Smith,L ... udents.pdf (http://www.morgancc.edu/faculty/Smith,L/A&P%20II/Cadaver/Cadaver%20Workshop%20Handout%20for%20Students.pdf)

Watch the video in the link below. I realize that the lungs are not in the cadaver’s body but this is a technique being developed by the use of a cadaver's lungs for research.
 http://www.break.com/index/cadaver-lung ... rator.html (http://www.break.com/index/cadaver-lungs-still-breathing-on-respirator.html)

This link below is to an article written in 1913 of the development of forcing oxygen into a cadaver’s lungs. The article describes how it can be done. Now if that was possible in 1913 like that, I believe that advancement on the method has come along ways since then. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 5B838DF1D3 (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F70810FB3B5F13738DDDA10994DD405B838DF1D3)

http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/con ... /1205.full (http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/content/103/5/1205.full)
It is possible to intubate a cadaver. Anesthesia students use cadavers to practice. I also have found evidence that suggests paramedics are trained to intubate on a combination of manikins and cadavers. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1746734 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1746734)

Autopsy report Anatomical summery:
5. Evidence of therapy
A. Endotracheal tube.
E. Anesthesiology.

End of that report plus H. and I. explains why there is hemmoragh in certain body parts. Diagnosis evidence 4. Evidence of resusitation.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: chappie on April 17, 2011, 06:42:28 PM
My opinion?
They used a body, dead or alive....
I think somewhere in between.... ;)
Yes there was this old frail short hair bold man....
That they didnt recognized as Michael...

What if...I say if...James Brown was at Carolwood drive..still alive but brain death.
There are more options but just keep it easy and let's say brain death.... ;)
The heart is still beating, but with mechanical ventilation they can still keep you *alive*.

They would need some bleeching cream to make him look white.
He is old, sick, bold, bad condition.....

http://www.tmz.com/2007/03/08/james-brown-still-dead-not-buried/

The hearse that according to TMZ was for Michaels funeral.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/jackson-burial-cart-before-the-horse/

The same hearse was used for James Brown.
[attachment=1:3calwpfp]hearse.jpg[/attachment:3calwpfp]

And the show must go on, but... to change clothes on a dead man is not an easy job.
I think you would have to break his legs....perhaps even cut them off..
http://www.tmz.com/2006/12/30/still-the ... n-showbiz/ (http://www.tmz.com/2006/12/30/still-the-hardest-working-man-in-showbiz/)

and again...

http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/12/james-bro ... pt-corpse/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/12/james-brown-body-not-stolon-missing-grave-crypt-corpse/)

[attachment=0:3calwpfp]heehee.jpg[/attachment:3calwpfp]

Hmmm, what about the fingerprints.....was *Michael* killed by a dead man...?

Chaps
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 17, 2011, 07:09:32 PM
I agree with chappie, as long as the real body theory hasn't been debunked, it might as well have been JB. MANY MANY MANY similarities. Casket, alleged daughter called Petit/Pettit, drama with will/DNA/Estate, golden casket, buried with 2 black gloves, private and public memorials, long ass time before burial, and after all, JB is still not in his permanent spot and still no autopsy was performed. Why not? If the family wants that, they can make that happen.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 17, 2011, 07:10:49 PM
Quote
onthewingsoflove wrote:
Quote
Im_convincedmjalive wrote:I have also read that many think medical personnel would not be fooled by a dead corpse because of decomp issues but I say many amazing things can be done to prep the body to appear newly deceased. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver) Decomp does not happen as quickly as people assume it does. There would be no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition)


This explains the reason for the excessively high temperature in the room. It was done to delay the occurrence of algor mortis.

According to wikipedia:
Algor mortis (Latin: algor—cold(ness); mortis—of death) is the reduction in body temperature following death. This is generally a steady decline until matching ambient temperature (room temperature), although external factors can have a significant influence.

As long as the temperature in the room stays at or above 98.6 degrees the temperature of the corpse would remove up as well.

Thank you "I'm Convinced!"
Stay blessed!
OnTheWingsOfLove

Yes that is one reason but also to make the body seem like it had been alive. I am glad you caught that. I don’t always post everything I see because I like to see if someone else will catch it. ;)
Quote
Elsa wrote:

Quote
Im_convincedmjalive wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy#Forensic_autopsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy#Forensic_autopsy)

Forensic autopsy
A forensic autopsy is used to determine the cause of death. Forensic science involves the application of the sciences to answer questions of interest to the legal system. In United States law, deaths are placed in one of five manners:
Natural
Accident
Homicide
Suicide
Undetermined


Im_convincedmjalive, I don't mean to ignore the rest of your post by highlighting just this part - like many people in this thread, you've done a lot of research and its all great to read - I'm still thinking it all through.

I just noticed that the initial letters of each manner of death make the name SHAUN - maybe it explains the use of the admission name Soule Shaun at UCLA.
That is really cool. Thanks for that. :)
Quote
Andrea wrote:
I am under the impression that TS wants the dead body theory to be de-bunked as that is what the last paragraph focused on. Otherwise he's almost telling us it was a dead body and it's not TS's style to give it away right off the bat like that.
I agree he wants us to try to debunk the dead body theory by using critical thinking and really investigating. The more I try to think of ways to debunk it the more I find evidence that proves it is the right theory. I started out in my first post going in the direction of trying to debunk the dead body by using the autopsy report. :ugeek: viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688#p322159 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688#p322159) I don’t believe everyone from LAFD, UCLA, coroners, LAPD is in on the hoax. I believe maybe 1 or 2 at the most from each or maybe none from UCLA.

I started by thinking about how many people at a minimum would need to be involved in the hoax to pull it off at the coroners, UCLA, LAFD, the witnesses from the pre-lim, etc. It started to appear to me like using no body would require to many people.

The timing of the autopsy report finalized on 9/9/09 could have been manipulated by the FBI’s involvement/suggestion to the coroner to get it done by that date. They were the ones who released the files according to a specific date and amount of files released. Andrea you already know that. :) The info I have read about LAPD and how there is a federal group formed to oversee their actions makes me believe that they were the ones who influenced the coroner’s report timing according to Michael’s numerology, because the federal people are doing other oversite things. ;)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=323759#p323759 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=323759#p323759)
Quote
The city of Los Angeles also signed a consent decree with the U.S. Justice Department requiring federal oversight of the police department's management and training policies.

On Wednesday, Cooley outlined a series of written protocols to investigate allegations of corruption, including a Justice System Integrity Division to review cases involving probable cause against officers and a response team to investigate any officer involved shooting or in custody deaths on the scene.

"Never before in the 151-year history of the district attorney's office has that office issued written protocols which outline how, when and under what circumstances prosecutors will investigate allegations of criminal misconduct by law enforcement employees," Cooley said.

TS has always been cryptic in his posts but does provide enough info to lead us in the right direction. His info is a combination of subliminal wrong ideas/right ideas by suggesting the wrong direction and also the right direction. He offered all possible theories as a suggestion.
Quote
The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?
I believe it has always been his style to give up some clues off the bat to tell us the right answers. Go back through his posts and see that he did that. You got to know how to interpret his words. My belief of why he did that is because instead of influencing our minds completely by only providing wrong answers or only right answers/directions to investigate; he made sure he provided both and left it up to us to decide.  8-)

Part of why I think he did that is so he wouldn’t be accused of entrapment. He only gave us enough to draw us in. We came up with our own theories after that. This provides evidence that indeed anyone could have figured out that there is a hoax.

For every true report there is a false one to provide clues for people to get the hint something aint right and also like TS said clues were provided to be able to cover the FBI’s and MJ’s ass so no one can say they were entrapped. There is a lot of missing info to hint at something aint right. Intentional hints in the ambulance picture, the Memorial, Funeral, etc. You know what though the Memorial was done so well it was convincing to me. I already explained after that I was done and over it so I didn’t even see any of the inconsistencies that are obvious to me now until after I joined here on the forum.[/b] 8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: looking4truth on April 17, 2011, 07:33:23 PM
Quote from: "MJonmind"

Quote
by looking4truth » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:07 pm
 2) In the photo of the body being pushed in the hospital, there is really no crowd around and there are a few photos. Plus, there is no video of this scene, only photos. (Unless I missed something. Please let me know if I did.) With this in mind, it would be easier to stage the photos and even use a dummy that is mechanically-controlled to make it look like MJ was sitting up on the stretcher. It may sound far-fetch but it is possible.

I think they recreated the scenario on June 25th and this time taped it and had the same people that were involved with the staged photo shoot. Again, I think a dummy was used on this day. No need to have a real body if they are involved with the photoshoot.
I said exactly that a couple of my posts back!


Oh really? Coolbeans. This is what happens you don't catch up before posting. lol Great minds think a like.  ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 17, 2011, 07:48:21 PM

I agree with Imconvinced. No dead body means too many involved. It seems too risky.

As for TS; I agree he gives us just enough, but he does NOT spoonfeed us. We come up with the theories. pieces of a puzzle, always carefully formulated. And if TS doesn't give you a plain answer to one of your questions, then probably he simply can't. TS is not going to give us the complete story on a silver plate, not going to happen. He gives us what he can, nothing more and nothing less. WE need to figure it out, as much as we can. Can we figure it all out? Most likely not, but we are the living proof that this is clearly a hoax and that everyone could have seen it, with or without TS. TS guides where he can and the rest is up to us. Without TS there would still be a hoax, no one believed in the hoax because of TS.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 17, 2011, 08:21:08 PM
yeah, now I am seeing very good theories ... but TS  please give us your opinion  


(http://i.imgur.com/W8qlg.gif)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 17, 2011, 08:23:50 PM
Quote from: "paula-c"
yeah, now I am seeing very good theories ... but TS  please give us your opinion  


(http://i.imgur.com/W8qlg.gif)

Aahhhhhhhwwww! That's adorable!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 17, 2011, 08:36:30 PM
Quote from: "paula-c"
yeah, now I am seeing very good theories ... but TS  please give us your opinion  


(http://i.imgur.com/W8qlg.gif)

OMG! I'm sorry this is off-topic but Paula OMG that is the cutest kittie I've ever seen in my life!  :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 17, 2011, 09:02:34 PM
BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!
If we had a thread for cute animal pics I would never have to leave this site to look anywhere else.
And I don't apologize for being off topic. A creature this georgous makes rules obsolete.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 17, 2011, 09:18:28 PM
I imagine that they would like :)
Now to return to the topic :mrgreen:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 17, 2011, 09:25:21 PM
Quote
Grace wrote:
In the coroner's van, the white sheet was taken away as far as we could identify what they did in the van.
I don’t see that. See evidence video below. I see the sheet remains intact in the van. Also look at the link to 2good2btrue’s pictures.
Quote
SoldierofLOVE wrote:

I never saw the body move in the helicopter as often cited by others.
Angry because I thought the personnel treated the body so indelicately by grabbing it at the head and almost tossing it like a rag doll BINGO.

So, looking at it again, they're not pulling a corpse by the head (never mind how flat the "body" looks) they are treating the "body" that way because nothing is there (or maybe it is a covered rag doll -- loaned to them by MJ from his huge doll collection. )

See this video at 5:18 and watch how they move the body by the head while it's in the ambulance. No dead body is wrapped in that sheet.
Michael Jackson's Body Arrives At L.A. Coroner's Office
[youtube:2ird29h2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo&feature=related[/youtube:2ird29h2]
Quote
Uploaded by PoliticsNewsPolitics on Jun 25, 2009
Helicopter Air Rescue 5 delivers the body of Michael Jackson to the L.A. Coroner's Office for a required autopsy.
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=322491#p322491 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=322491#p322491)
The video you used to show there is no dead body under the sheet is the exact same one I used in my post. I however see a body under the sheet. bec stated it about the weight of the body being hefted by the KNOT in the sheet. It wasn’t the bodies head.
Quote from: "bec"
The "body" looks like it has weight to it when he hefts it. He picks it up by the knot tied in the sheet which is at the head. Looks legit to me :?  :?:
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=322755#p322755 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=322755#p322755) look at the last picture on 2good2btrue's post.

Another thing about the videos I chose to post in that comment is because each one has clues in it. First one is talking about Liza’s comment “When the autopsy report comes out, All hell is gonna break loose” Hmm let’s see I do believe that the autopsy report has caused a lot of suspicion and it has been analyzed and ripped apart here on the forum. I say that qualifies for some of the hell breaking loose. There is other reasons for her comment but that is all I am saying for now.  8-)

I chose the coroner’s press conference so Craig Harvey’s actions could be analyzed. Does he appear to be acting according to a script or is he really holding a PR press conference for the public’s sake?

I chose Ed Winter’s videos to show how uncomfortable and irritated he was during the paps questions in front of Dr. Klien’s office. He doesn’t appear happy at all following a "I’m in the hoax script". The one about the undisclosed video shows why the body was assumed not there at the coroner’s office anymore.

[youtube:2ird29h2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpTnvwxRyW8[/youtube:2ird29h2]
[youtube:2ird29h2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmEKYFYP6dI&NR=1[/youtube:2ird29h2]
[youtube:2ird29h2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD_Lx23YQe4&NR=1[/youtube:2ird29h2]
This whole interview of LaToya’s has clues riddled throughout. The mentioning of Michael being controlled, the mentioning of Michael being murdered gave credibility to the death being real and also fueled and pushed investigators to look at the people around Michael at the time of his death. It helped to get investigators to look at shady Dr.’s and pharmacies providing propofol. This also pushed people to investigate prior attempts on Michael’s life. There is more.

I also posted these videos for the description of what Michael was wearing in his casket. The video I posted of the Grammy legend award shows what he was wearing based on the description.


Quote from: "~Souza~"
I agree with chappie, as long as the real body theory hasn't been debunked, it might as well have been JB. MANY MANY MANY similarities. Casket, alleged daughter called Petit/Pettit, drama with will/DNA/Estate, golden casket, buried with 2 black gloves, private and public memorials, long ass time before burial, and after all, JB is still not in his permanent spot and still no autopsy was performed. Why not? If the family wants that, they can make that happen.
I agree with the similarities but I don't believe it was James Brown. He is reported in the article as never left the building and he is said by the family’s lawyer to still be in his crypt. http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/12/james-bro ... pt-corpse/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/12/james-brown-body-not-stolon-missing-grave-crypt-corpse/)
Quote
But a lawyer who represents 5 of Brown's children tells TMZ James is right where he should be -- in his crypt
Quote from: "AllInGoodTime"
Oh and....

Honestly, if the FBI was not involved I do not beLIEve MJ had the resources or ability to pull this off.
[youtube:2ird29h2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ov9_qagdh4[/youtube:2ird29h2]

Evidence to prove otherwise. MJ always had the influence and resources deeper than many of us realize. I believe the FBI is one of the resources he already had in his circle and called upon them for this hoax sting operation.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 17, 2011, 11:16:41 PM
Quote
bec wrote:

True Grace, what came out of UCLA via Helicopter need not be what went into UCLA via stretcher gif.

I think it was Michael himself via stretcher gif. TMZ ran an article in early 2010 with a headline that said MJ was alive at UCLA. That goes along with Michael sitting up on the stretcher as seen in the gif. Some say that was debunked because of legs... I've looked a thousand times and my eyes don't see legs that aren't attached to a person accounted for in the pic that isn't Michael. 4 pics of the stretcher entering UCLA were released originally in fall of 2009... then a couple weeks later 3 more pics of the scene were released to fill in the gaps to create the gif... and those 3 frames showed Michael's face/ear/ponytail... 7 pics in total to create that gif... that's a hell of a coincidence... but I digress. (or do I)

I sure think it would be fun if the "body" was MJ himself all along, culminating in MJ jumping out of the coroner van at the end. Fun most definitely, perhaps not realistic, but the stuff of a movie for sure.

If this is a movie, in my opinion after 22 months of research and live time observations of it all, The above Scenario is what happened on screen. What happened after they said "cut" on each scene only our imagination can satisfy for now.

Quote
STUDY @ MJHD Thriller 2 (TII): The Dome Project Completed on 6-9-09



 
Now we are ready to start looking at some very strong evidence pointing to 9-9-09 as the MJ "resurrection" day. Keep in mind that at least some of the "resurrection" may have been filmed on another day—just like some of the "death" photography may not have been done on 6-25-09, and possibly some of the funeral / "burial" footage may have been recorded sometime other than 9-3-09. But according to the hoax plan, and the movie script: the "death" was 6-25-09, the funeral & "burial" was 9-3-09, and the "resurrection" was 9-9-09.

 
The following report is from the MTV website: "… Michael Jackson completed a mysterious video production known as the ‘Dome Project’ two weeks before his death … details on the project are hard to come by due to confidentiality agreements signed by those who worked on it … it was shot, from June 1-9 [ending on 6-9-09, exactly three months before 9-9-09!]. Four sets were constructed for the video, including a cemetery similar to the one from the singer’s famous 1983 ‘Thriller’ video. Other sets included … a simulated lush jungle … In addition to the ‘Dome’ project, AEG Live is reported to have filmed 100 hours of rehearsals for the London shows …"click here; also click here, and click here

 
Now that the movie trailer is out, we can see that "This Is It" will include video from the Dome Project. {click here; also click here; and see the jungle shot at 0:49, click here}

 
Why was the Dome Project a mysterious secret, unless it’s about MJ coming back from the dead? Why does it include Thriller type shots, unless the movie is indeed Thriller 2 (TII, "T" for "Thriller" and "II" for Roman numeral 2; also TII for This Is It)? And if it is Thriller 2, then wouldn’t the movie include coming back from the dead—just like the first Thriller video??

 
And why was it "coincidentally" completed, only two weeks before his "death"? Doesn’t this sound more like a plan to finish the Dome Project first, and then go into the "death" phase? And most amazing: why was it completed on 6-9-09, exactly three months before 9-9-09? Again, just turn that first "6" upside down, and you have: 9-9-09!!!

 
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 18, 2011, 12:28:29 AM
Quote from: "paula-c"
Quote
bec wrote:

True Grace, what came out of UCLA via Helicopter need not be what went into UCLA via stretcher gif.

I think it was Michael himself via stretcher gif. TMZ ran an article in early 2010 with a headline that said MJ was alive at UCLA. That goes along with Michael sitting up on the stretcher as seen in the gif. Some say that was debunked because of legs... I've looked a thousand times and my eyes don't see legs that aren't attached to a person accounted for in the pic that isn't Michael. 4 pics of the stretcher entering UCLA were released originally in fall of 2009... then a couple weeks later 3 more pics of the scene were released to fill in the gaps to create the gif... and those 3 frames showed Michael's face/ear/ponytail... 7 pics in total to create that gif... that's a hell of a coincidence... but I digress. (or do I)

I sure think it would be fun if the "body" was MJ himself all along, culminating in MJ jumping out of the coroner van at the end. Fun most definitely, perhaps not realistic, but the stuff of a movie for sure.

If this is a movie, in my opinion after 22 months of research and live time observations of it all, The above Scenario is what happened on screen. What happened after they said "cut" on each scene only our imagination can satisfy for now.

Quote
STUDY @ MJHD Thriller 2 (TII): The Dome Project Completed on 6-9-09



 
Now we are ready to start looking at some very strong evidence pointing to 9-9-09 as the MJ "resurrection" day. Keep in mind that at least some of the "resurrection" may have been filmed on another day—just like some of the "death" photography may not have been done on 6-25-09, and possibly some of the funeral / "burial" footage may have been recorded sometime other than 9-3-09. But according to the hoax plan, and the movie script: the "death" was 6-25-09, the funeral & "burial" was 9-3-09, and the "resurrection" was 9-9-09.

 
The following report is from the MTV website: "… Michael Jackson completed a mysterious video production known as the ‘Dome Project’ two weeks before his death … details on the project are hard to come by due to confidentiality agreements signed by those who worked on it … it was shot, from June 1-9 [ending on 6-9-09, exactly three months before 9-9-09!]. Four sets were constructed for the video, including a cemetery similar to the one from the singer’s famous 1983 ‘Thriller’ video. Other sets included … a simulated lush jungle … In addition to the ‘Dome’ project, AEG Live is reported to have filmed 100 hours of rehearsals for the London shows …"click here; also click here, and click here

 
Now that the movie trailer is out, we can see that "This Is It" will include video from the Dome Project. {click here; also click here; and see the jungle shot at 0:49, click here}

 
Why was the Dome Project a mysterious secret, unless it’s about MJ coming back from the dead? Why does it include Thriller type shots, unless the movie is indeed Thriller 2 (TII, "T" for "Thriller" and "II" for Roman numeral 2; also TII for This Is It)? And if it is Thriller 2, then wouldn’t the movie include coming back from the dead—just like the first Thriller video??

 
And why was it "coincidentally" completed, only two weeks before his "death"? Doesn’t this sound more like a plan to finish the Dome Project first, and then go into the "death" phase? And most amazing: why was it completed on 6-9-09, exactly three months before 9-9-09? Again, just turn that first "6" upside down, and you have: 9-9-09!!!

 
Hey paula,

That's a good thought about the scenes being staged. Maybe the scene of the guy sitting up on the stretcher came from there. lol  8-) However according to bec's timing of when the 4 original pics, the other 3 pictures showed up online, I say that the extra pictures showing the details of someone on the stretcher and pony tail, etc. could very well have been photoshopped in after the fact. Just like the Fake Ambulance picture. ;)

It's all about subliminal suggestions.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 18, 2011, 12:41:52 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
speaking of TS...not that I'm complaining but my twisted mind can't help wondering what's keeping him away ...

You want to know what I think?

Well, I'm thinking for 3 days now .....do I want to know what Souza thinks or not?(http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i394/Indiana101/thinking-idea-animated-animation-smiley-emoticon-000339-large.gif)
Of course I do, why wouldn't I ?!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MissG on April 18, 2011, 10:30:35 AM
Quote from: "chappie"
My opinion?
They used a body, dead or alive....
I think somewhere in between.... ;)
Yes there was this old frail short hair bold man....
That they didnt recognized as Michael...

What if...I say if...James Brown was at Carolwood drive..still alive but brain death.
There are more options but just keep it easy and let's say brain death.... ;)
The heart is still beating, but with mechanical ventilation they can still keep you *alive*.

They would need some bleeching cream to make him look white.
He is old, sick, bold, bad condition.....

http://www.tmz.com/2007/03/08/james-brown-still-dead-not-buried/

The hearse that according to TMZ was for Michaels funeral.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/jackson-burial-cart-before-the-horse/

The same hearse was used for James Brown.
[attachment=1:23zjcxaf]hearse.jpg[/attachment:23zjcxaf]

And the show must go on, but... to change clothes on a dead man is not an easy job.
I think you would have to break his legs....perhaps even cut them off..
http://www.tmz.com/2006/12/30/still-the ... n-showbiz/ (http://www.tmz.com/2006/12/30/still-the-hardest-working-man-in-showbiz/)

and again...

http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/12/james-bro ... pt-corpse/ (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/12/james-brown-body-not-stolon-missing-grave-crypt-corpse/)

[attachment=0:23zjcxaf]heehee.jpg[/attachment:23zjcxaf]

Hmmm, what about the fingerprints.....was *Michael* killed by a dead man...?

Chaps

Chappie, I am glad to read this post of yours. That same thought crossed my mind in 2009 and people were not very open to it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MissG on April 18, 2011, 10:32:33 AM
Quote from: "paula-c"
yeah, now I am seeing very good theories ... but TS  please give us your opinion  


(http://i.imgur.com/W8qlg.gif)

Ay que me lo comoooooo!!!!  :lol:  :lol:

what a cute kitty!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bleu eyes on April 18, 2011, 12:08:05 PM
just a question about James Brown, is it usual to dress a death person in different suits.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: chappie on April 18, 2011, 01:07:28 PM
Quote from: "bleu eyes"
just a question about James Brown, is it usual to dress a death person in different suits.

Well Blue eyes....i guess anything is possible in this situation.
Just use you imagination and dress the guy in any suit you want.
To me there are 2 James Browns, the one in the black suit and the one in the purple.
The one in the black has longer hair and a totally different face.
I know that when your are dead your hair grows on.
But in a week like the black suit James, that would be a miracle....
Or James makes miracles come true.... ;)
[YouTube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeZcJhAehRU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeZcJhAehRU)[/YouTube]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ForstAMoon on April 18, 2011, 01:14:10 PM
Quote from: "paula-c"
yeah, now I am seeing very good theories ... but TS  please give us your opinion  


(http://i.imgur.com/W8qlg.gif)


OMG - I am going to steal this one, my upfront appologies  :) it is too cute not to be shown around  :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bleu eyes on April 18, 2011, 02:08:27 PM
Quote from: "chappie"
Quote from: "bleu eyes"
just a question about James Brown, is it usual to dress a death person in different suits.

Well Blue eyes....i guess anything is possible in this situation.
Just use you imagination and dress the guy in any suit you want.
To me there are 2 James Browns, the one in the black suit and the one in the purple.
The one in the black has longer hair and a totally different face.
I know that when your are dead your hair grows on.
But in a week like the black suit James, that would be a miracle....
Or James makes miracles come true.... ;)
[YouTube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeZcJhAehRU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeZcJhAehRU)[/YouTube]

You could be right Chappie, thanks for your reply. :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 18, 2011, 04:14:36 PM
Quote
Gema wrote:



chappie wrote:My opinion?
They used a body, dead or alive....
I think somewhere in between....
Yes there was this old frail short hair bold man....
That they didnt recognized as Michael...

What if...I say if...James Brown was at Carolwood drive..still alive but brain death.
There are more options but just keep it easy and let's say brain death....
The heart is still beating, but with mechanical ventilation they can still keep you *alive*.

They would need some bleeching cream to make him look white.
He is old, sick, bold, bad condition.....

http://www.tmz.com/2007/03/08/james-bro ... ot-buried/ (http://www.tmz.com/2007/03/08/james-brown-still-dead-not-buried/)

The hearse that according to TMZ was for Michaels funeral.

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/jackson-b ... the-horse/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/jackson-burial-cart-before-the-horse/)

The same hearse was used for James Brown.

hearse.jpg


And the show must go on, but... to change clothes on a dead man is not an easy job.
I think you would have to break his legs....perhaps even cut them off..
http://www.tmz.com/2006/12/30/still-the (http://www.tmz.com/2006/12/30/still-the) ... n-showbiz/

and again...

http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/12/james-bro (http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/12/james-bro) ... pt-corpse/


heehee.jpg


Hmmm, what about the fingerprints.....was *Michael* killed by a dead man...?

Chaps

Chappie, I am glad to read this post of yours. That same thought crossed my mind in 2009 and people were not very open to it.

.....if, in the "room of Michael" bleaching creams were found ... and once said something after the "death " that Murray would return home to find a cream or something, :roll:  .. back to my padded cell :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: alovesmichael on April 18, 2011, 05:16:57 PM
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
who are you? :?:

With the pattern of thought and reasonings and teaching into logical theories, I'd say this is an attorney we are dealing with.

I am not a lawyer. I'm biomedical formed five years last and I work at a federal university hospital. So I know a few things.
Sorry, I don't no know if you're talking to me, but I answered anyway! :lol:

Sorry, was referring to OP/TS   :) . Guess it could be an attorney but a fan right? I don't understand the purpose of all this. Does this person know anything or does he/she just want to create a game? And if the person really knows something than why play games?

This is SERIOUS stuff to me. I wanna know what happened to Michael that's it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on April 18, 2011, 08:36:17 PM
A good friend of mine who's a nurse says that in the helicopter transport,  "when somebody dies they don't die with their feet totally erect. If you look at that body the feet are straight up."  :o


My question: When the most famous person in the world dies, is it likely that the family would allow his body to be transported from helicopter to coroner with no family member, bodyguard, or trusted friend traveling with the body?  We are talking about MICHAEL JACKSON and no one the family knew was with him???? Wouldn't there be concerns about unknown personnel with his body, particularly for an autopsy?  They were so concerned that there be no cameras or phones at the hospital but he travels alone with strangers on the helicopter to the coroner's office?   I can't remember, did a family member meet the body at the coroner's office for the autopsy?


Dr. Nick recounts how difficult it was for him to be there for Elvis' autopsy.  (Even if a fictional account, Dr. Nick says that it was absolutely necessary for him, as Elvis' personal physician,  to be present at the autopsy.)  

I can't imagine Michael's family letting "his body" out of their sight for one moment.

When my uncle passed away he was transported by helicopter from one hospital to another.  A family member was allowed to ride along because his wife insisted.  He was not famous.  He was just a good man whom we loved and he was not out of our sight when transported to ensure his remains were safe.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 18, 2011, 09:35:57 PM
Quote from: "SoldierofLOVE"
A good friend of mine who's a nurse says that in the helicopter transport,  "when somebody dies they don't die with their feet totally erect. If you look at that body the feet are straight up."  :o


My question: When the most famous person in the world dies, is it likely that the family would allow his body to be transported from helicopter to coroner with no family member, bodyguard, or trusted friend traveling with the body?  We are talking about MICHAEL JACKSON and no one the family knew was with him???? Wouldn't there be concerns about unknown personnel with his body, particularly for an autopsy?  They were so concerned that there be no cameras or phones at the hospital but he travels alone with strangers on the helicopter to the coroner's office?   I can't remember, did a family member meet the body at the coroner's office for the autopsy?


Dr. Nick recounts how difficult it was for him to be there for Elvis' autopsy.  (Even if a fictional account, Dr. Nick says that it was absolutely necessary for him, as Elvis' personal physician,  to be present at the autopsy.)  

I can't imagine Michael's family letting "his body" out of their sight for one moment.

When my uncle passed away he was transported by helicopter from one hospital to another.  A family member was allowed to ride along because his wife insisted.  He was not famous.  He was just a good man whom we loved and he was not out of our sight when transported to ensure his remains were safe.

Hey SoldierofLOVE....
First of all, I am sorry to hear of your loss concerning your uncle.  Your words were so sweet and it sounds as though there's much love in your family....blessings to you always.
Secondly....what great, valid points your bring up about this transport.  I have always thought the helicopter scene was very interesting.  Why the door open too?  Always wondered about that....
thanks so much.....I am off to more reading  ;)
Have a beautiful evening....many blessings to you and your family!

LOVE
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 18, 2011, 09:54:41 PM
Quote from: "SoldierofLOVE"
A good friend of mine who's a nurse says that in the helicopter transport,  "when somebody dies they don't die with their feet totally erect. If you look at that body the feet are straight up."  :o


My question: When the most famous person in the world dies, is it likely that the family would allow his body to be transported from helicopter to coroner with no family member, bodyguard, or trusted friend traveling with the body?  We are talking about MICHAEL JACKSON and no one the family knew was with him???? Wouldn't there be concerns about unknown personnel with his body, particularly for an autopsy?  They were so concerned that there be no cameras or phones at the hospital but he travels alone with strangers on the helicopter to the coroner's office?   I can't remember, did a family member meet the body at the coroner's office for the autopsy?


Dr. Nick recounts how difficult it was for him to be there for Elvis' autopsy.  (Even if a fictional account, Dr. Nick says that it was absolutely necessary for him, as Elvis' personal physician,  to be present at the autopsy.)  

I can't imagine Michael's family letting "his body" out of their sight for one moment.

When my uncle passed away he was transported by helicopter from one hospital to another.  A family member was allowed to ride along because his wife insisted.  He was not famous.  He was just a good man whom we loved and he was not out of our sight when transported to ensure his remains were safe.
One thing to remember here is the body being transported wasn't MJ. The family, or body guard, nor trusted friend would not accompany a body that they know is not him. I do not take into account MJ's celebrity when the medical personnel worked on him in any place or time. I see them as doing their job like they would any other citizen. You also must take into the account that a cadaver ( I believe) was used and therefore the feet were already in an upright position considering that the cadaver really didn't just die but had been dead and on ice in refrigeration.

Your uncle's passing would be understandable that the family would want to be present because his death was real.  :(
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 18, 2011, 10:04:55 PM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
Quote from: "SoldierofLOVE"
A good friend of mine who's a nurse says that in the helicopter transport,  "when somebody dies they don't die with their feet totally erect. If you look at that body the feet are straight up."  :o


My question: When the most famous person in the world dies, is it likely that the family would allow his body to be transported from helicopter to coroner with no family member, bodyguard, or trusted friend traveling with the body?  We are talking about MICHAEL JACKSON and no one the family knew was with him???? Wouldn't there be concerns about unknown personnel with his body, particularly for an autopsy?  They were so concerned that there be no cameras or phones at the hospital but he travels alone with strangers on the helicopter to the coroner's office?   I can't remember, did a family member meet the body at the coroner's office for the autopsy?


Dr. Nick recounts how difficult it was for him to be there for Elvis' autopsy.  (Even if a fictional account, Dr. Nick says that it was absolutely necessary for him, as Elvis' personal physician,  to be present at the autopsy.)  

I can't imagine Michael's family letting "his body" out of their sight for one moment.

When my uncle passed away he was transported by helicopter from one hospital to another.  A family member was allowed to ride along because his wife insisted.  He was not famous.  He was just a good man whom we loved and he was not out of our sight when transported to ensure his remains were safe.
One thing to remember here is the body being transported wasn't MJ. The family would not accompany a body that they know is not him. I do not take into account MJ's celebrity when the medical personnel worked on him in any place or time. I see them as doing their job like they would any other citizen. You also must take into the account that a cadaver ( I believe) was used and therefore the feet were already in an upright position considering that the cadaver really didn't just die but had been dead and on ice in refrigeration.

Your uncle's passing would be understandable that the family would want to be present because his death was real.  :(

The erect feet is actually a good original point I forgot about.

A cadaver's feet, when frozen, would assume the position they were in when freshly dead, which would not be erect  ;) .

Yes, the erect feet are a discrepancy in the, 'real body in the helicopter' theory.

Feet would be erect in a dummy... or in a live person play acting a stiff corpse  :lol:

On the original MJHD thread regarding the topic, this post was accompanied by a pic of MJ from the Thriller days, joking around, laying in an old wooden coffin (obviously a prop) pretending to be dead... as part of the act he had his arms stiff at his sides, and his feet were sticking bolt upright  :idea:

mmhmm, I tell no lies. I wish I had saved that pic *kicks self*. I never saw it after that again, not in all my online mj hoaxy travels has that pic ever again resurfaced. But unless anyone else from those days happened to snag it, that pic is long gone... that along with all our data from 8/4/09-->mid Nov 2009.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 18, 2011, 10:31:16 PM
What kind of helicopter flies with an open door for God's sake?  :lol:  It was too obvious that they were trying to show us the moving body inside the helicopter. :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 18, 2011, 10:44:25 PM
Quote
PureLove wrote:

What kind of helicopter flies with an open door for God's sake? It was too obvious that they were trying to show us the moving body inside the helicopter

if I thought well, that was part of the show :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on April 18, 2011, 10:57:22 PM
 I'm asking a rhetorical question. I KNOW the body was not Michael's.    :lol:    It is especially significant for an unbeliever or doubter to consider from the point of view I mentioned previously.   I only brought up my dear uncle (who passed away 20 years ago), to add how you would normally treat a loved one in a situation like that if it was MJ's body or anyone of significance.   There's no way the family or trusted personnel/friend would allow the body to be transported without proper oversight and it is difficult for me to believe that they did not want to give the APPEARANCE that Michael had died by accompanying "his" body.

I do not see a clear preponderance of evidence that rigor mortis set in to the lower extremities by the time the body was transported nor do I yet see clear evidence that a body was used. Those feet are stiff as boards and oddly shaped. :lol:   It takes much longer for a cold body to achieve rigor mortis.  

I'll check back after consulting my friends Ricky Mortis and the Cadavers.  8-)  :roll:  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 18, 2011, 11:59:41 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
What kind of helicopter flies with an open door for God's sake?  :lol:  It was too obvious that they were trying to show us the moving body inside the helicopter. :)

I have seen other footage of LASD Rescue 5 chopper rides when they had the door wide open, too.
My first thought in Michael's footage was also "why for heaven's sake?" but they seem to enjoy rides like that in L.A. Appears to be a local pleasure to fly door open.

[youtube:37r8btgn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSRp96Ep0K8&feature=related[/youtube:37r8btgn]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSRp96Ep0K8&feature=related

[youtube:37r8btgn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0tmWCfrjAs&feature=related[/youtube:37r8btgn]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0tmWCfrjAs&feature=related
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 19, 2011, 01:39:05 AM

"At 1811 hours, rigor mortis was not present throughout the body."

That is 6:11 p.m. That is the time E. Fleak’s looked at the body still at the hospital. The body supposedly died before going to the hospital. So hypothetically the body was dead before the 911 call at 12:21 p.m. Let’s say the death happened at 12 noon for this example. That is also in the autopsy report as the time Murray found MJ not breathing.

So the body is dead about 6 hours. Rigor can start anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours and spreads throughout the whole body in approximately 6 to 12 hours, before receding again after another 6 to 12 hours. E. Fleak’s states rigor is not present throughout the body at 6:11 p.m. That would be about 6 hours if the body had rigor start in 30 minutes.

Rigor should have been present throughout the body according to the info and I am going with the least amount of time. The feet are still moveable at this point because no rigor throughout the body and can be positioned in the upright position we see on the body being transported. Also in the video the feet appear to be tied by something which would keep them in position. By the time the coroner started the autopsy the next day at 10:00 a.m. the body had already gone through rigor mortis and then receded. Dead body 12 noon, 12 hours later midnight, 10 hours later autopsy. Meaning the body wasn’t stiff.

How do you think an autopsy is done? It is done on a body that can move and can easily be cut into. When I say ice it is slang I don’t mean frozen stiff. Cadavers are used for every possible research for surgical reasons and more. Podiatry research uses cadaver feet to know how to perform surgery correctly. They are not going to cut open a living human for this research and certainly not going to perform surgery with out knowing where things are in the feet or how certain positions affect their surgical procedures.

Therefore they perform research on cadaver feet and move them in positions to figure out which is the best when performing the surgery. :ugeek:

Now going to the cadaver theory being used from the house to UCLA to coroner. This cadaver had already died, was refrigerated to prevent/slow down decomp, can be used out of refrigeration for up to 10 hrs, won’t actually go through rigor because it has been dead long enough that it already went through that process, the heat in the room made the cooling of the body slow down and appear more fresh with a warm temp to the touch. This is not a frozen cadaver. 8-)  

By the time the paramedics got to it; it is movable. Then at UCLA (according to the info on rigor) hospital staff and E. Fleak would think the cadaver is going through the normal process as if the cadaver had just died. By the time the coroner did the autopsy he thought normal process of rigor and receded had happened. It makes sense because of when he did the autopsy that he waited for the body to be movable. I am still going with the least amount of time for rigor in my theory.
8-)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=324064#p324064 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=324064#p324064)

http://www.jfootankleres.com/content/2/1/18 (http://www.jfootankleres.com/content/2/1/18)
Methods
Quote
Two approaches to the problem of accessing and measuring the kinematics of individual anatomical structures in the foot have been taken, (i) static and dynamic cadaver models, and (ii) invasive in-vivo research. Cadaver models offer the advantage that there is complete access to all the tissues of the foot, but the cadaver must be manipulated and loaded in a manner which replicates how the foot would have performed when in-vivo. The key value of invasive in-vivo foot kinematics research is the validity of the description of foot kinematics, but the key difficulty is how generalisable this data is to the wider population.
Results
Quote
Through these techniques a great deal has been learnt. We better understand the valuable contribution mid and forefoot joints make to foot biomechanics, and how the ankle and subtalar joints can have almost comparable roles. Variation between people in foot kinematics is high and normal. This includes variation in how specific joints move and how combinations of joints move. The foot continues to demonstrate its flexibility in enabling us to get from A to B via a large number of different kinematic solutions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9462908 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9462908)
Abstract
Quote
Calcaneocuboid fusion with lengthening of the lateral column of the foot has been advocated as a method of treating flatfoot deformity. This study was designed to determine how the length of the lateral column chosen or the position of the foot selected when performing this fusion affect hindfoot kinematics in normal cadaver feet. An electromagnetic tracking system was used to monitor the positions of the talus, calcaneus, navicular, and cuboid while the intact cadaver feet were moved passively and then under reproducible loads.

Calcaneocuboid fusion was then performed on these feet first with the feet in neutral position and the lateral column of normal length, then lengthened 10 mm or shortened 5 mm, and then with the lateral column lengthened 10 mm and the feet positioned in plantar flexion and eversion or dorsiflexion and inversion. Kinematic measurements were made at each stage using the same loads. Fusing the calcaneocuboid joint with lengthening or shortening the lateral column and the feet in neutral position did not affect hindfoot joint motion compared with intact. Changing the position of the foot for fusion, however, resulted in significant decreases in motion in the talocalcaneal and talonavicular joints. Tibiotalar joint motion was unaffected. This study, therefore, demonstrates that when fusing the calcaneocuboid joint, attention should be paid to maintaining a neutral position of the foot.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 19, 2011, 03:48:02 AM
Quote from: "Grace"
Quote from: "PureLove"
What kind of helicopter flies with an open door for God's sake?  :lol:  It was too obvious that they were trying to show us the moving body inside the helicopter. :)

I have seen other footage of LASD Rescue 5 chopper rides when they had the door wide open, too.
My first thought in Michael's footage was also "why for heaven's sake?" but they seem to enjoy rides like that in L.A. Appears to be a local pleasure to fly door open.

[youtube:oz2fl9a4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSRp96Ep0K8&feature=related[/youtube:oz2fl9a4]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSRp96Ep0K8&feature=related

[youtube:oz2fl9a4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0tmWCfrjAs&feature=related[/youtube:oz2fl9a4]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0tmWCfrjAs&feature=related


Sorry but that is not security. How about if  stretcher would have  rolled out of the open door?  You might think the stretcher is secure but it could just roll out the big opening. Then what? They have a weird sense of security.blessings.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 19, 2011, 05:26:32 AM
Quote from: "SoldierofLOVE"
A good friend of mine who's a nurse says that in the helicopter transport,  "when somebody dies they don't die with their feet totally erect. If you look at that body the feet are straight up."  :o
In this case it was a dummy in the helicopter. But this means the "body" didn't move in the helicopter... - it was just an optical illusion.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 19, 2011, 06:46:34 AM
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 19, 2011, 10:12:09 AM
Quote from: "Grace"

I have seen other footage of LASD Rescue 5 chopper rides when they had the door wide open, too.
My first thought in Michael's footage was also "why for heaven's sake?" but they seem to enjoy rides like that in L.A. Appears to be a local pleasure to fly door open.

 :lol:  
I see no dead body inside the helicopter. On Michael's case, I still believe they did it on purpose for people to realize the supposed dead body move. :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 19, 2011, 10:27:46 AM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

right :?
ahhhh, I don't know what to think now.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 19, 2011, 11:00:49 AM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

Who knows, maybe the paramedic portrayers were also the helicopter people too.  Maybe like the This Is It dancers also acting as funeral ushers.  We could be dealing with a limited number of players in the hoax - and each of them has more than one role.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 19, 2011, 11:31:39 AM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

I don't follow this logic at all. It's wrapped in a sheet. They're not going to go poking around in it if they're under the impression that it's a corpse. So long as "the body" has the right weight and dimensions, no one involved in the helicopter scene would suspect a thing.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhunny on April 19, 2011, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

I don't follow this logic at all. It's wrapped in a sheet. They're not going to go poking around in it if they're under the impression that it's a corpse. So long as "the body" has the right weight and dimensions, no one involved in the helicopter scene would suspect a thing.


If they were'nt involved in the hoax, this is Michael Jackson we're talking about! And only wrapped in a sheet! Not secured in a unopenable solid cement box! Damn straight they'd take a peek!They have to be a part of it, like someone said they could be playing more than one part only.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on April 19, 2011, 11:41:26 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

I don't follow this logic at all. It's wrapped in a sheet. They're not going to go poking around in it if they're under the impression that it's a corpse. So long as "the body" has the right weight and dimensions, no one involved in the helicopter scene would suspect a thing.
Thats a strong possibility...another possibility is they could have been told it was a dummy serving as a distraction while the "real" body was being transported by van or some other method. In this case they would know it was a dummy, but would not suspect that Michael was alive. It sure would explain the disrespectful way they plopped the body onto the strecher.  :evil:

My opinion is that there was a dead body but at some point in the hospital it got switched with a dummy. OOORRR it could have gotten switched in the helicopter. I vaguely remember something about there being TWO sheet covered "bodies" in the helicopter. *skips back to my safe padded cell*
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 19, 2011, 11:56:28 AM
I think we're a step ahead here. I agree that there would be a risk that the helicopter people would take a peek, but if  they are not involved, it doesn't mean they didn't transport a dummy or even a living person (who can sit up). They might have told them that MJ would be transported in another way for safety reasons, and that they needed to take a dummy/other person with them to distract the media. They positioned the body in the wrong place anyway, on the chairs for the crew instead of the stretcher, so we already know they didn't transport a real dead body.

I think we should focus on the ambulance first. Who was in the house, who was in the ambulance and who knows?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 19, 2011, 11:57:59 AM
Quote from: "StrangerInCalifornia"
Thats a strong possibility...another possibility is they could have been told it was a dummy serving as a distraction while the "real" body was being transported by van or some other method. In this case they would know it was a dummy, but would not suspect that Michael was alive. It sure would explain the disrespectful way they plopped the body onto the strecher.  :evil:

Exactly, same thoughts.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 19, 2011, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
I think we're a step ahead here. I agree that there would be a risk that the helicopter people would take a peek, but if  they are not involved, it doesn't mean they didn't transport a dummy or even a living person (who can sit up). They might have told them that MJ would be transported in another way for safety reasons, and that they needed to take a dummy/other person with them to distract the media. They positioned the body in the wrong place anyway, on the chairs for the crew instead of the stretcher, so we already know they didn't transport a real dead body.

I think we should focus on the ambulance first. Who was in the house, who was in the ambulance and who knows?

Thanks for the reminder, that's right, we forgot that part.

We may be ahead of ourselves but only because our Thread Starter hasn't returned to weigh in on the countless theories we have presented here.

I think we have made fine progress on our own, we just don't agree on what's proof and what's debunked. We never have in 22 months been able to reach a unanimous conclusion about any step of this hoax solo so why would that change now?  ;)

I mean, I have my own ideas and theories that I am confident in at this stage, and I'm sure each of you reading this can say the same, but when it comes to a collective mindset; that continues to allude us.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 19, 2011, 12:08:24 PM
But, honestly, do we have to agree?  And what does agreeing get us?  Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get??  I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree.  That's why God made us all different.  To be ourselves.  Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them?  HUMMM  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 19, 2011, 12:23:28 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
But, honestly, do we have to agree?  And what does agreeing get us? Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get??  I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree.  That's why God made us all different.  To be ourselves.  Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them?  HUMMM  :D

Well, the straight forward answer is that it gets us further progress in the game TS initiated that we agreed to play when we started following this thread.

When I say "game" I mean figuratively.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 19, 2011, 12:35:44 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
But, honestly, do we have to agree?  And what does agreeing get us? Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get??  I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree.  That's why God made us all different.  To be ourselves.  Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them?  HUMMM  :D

Well, the straight forward answer is that it gets us further progress in the game TS initiated that we agreed to play when we started following this thread.

When I say "game" I mean figuratively.

But 'agreeing' on something doesn't make it the truth - most of the world 'agrees' that MJ is dead! I don't think TS is waiting for us to 'agree'.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 19, 2011, 12:39:21 PM
I don't think we've had a definitive answer to any step we've graduated from this whole journey have we?  If we have, I wish we'd have a thread on the steps we've conquered and what they are that we have agreed upon.
Just saying cuz I really don't know.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 19, 2011, 12:49:15 PM
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
But, honestly, do we have to agree?  And what does agreeing get us? Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get??  I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree.  That's why God made us all different.  To be ourselves.  Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them?  HUMMM  :D

Well, the straight forward answer is that it gets us further progress in the game TS initiated that we agreed to play when we started following this thread.

When I say "game" I mean figuratively.

But 'agreeing' on something doesn't make it the truth - most of the world 'agrees' that MJ is dead! I don't think TS is waiting for us to 'agree'.

Ooooo curls! Touche'!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 19, 2011, 01:09:14 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
They positioned the body in the wrong place anyway, on the chairs for the crew instead of the stretcher, so we already know they didn't transport a real dead body.

I think that the stretcher was not positioned upon the seats.
IMO this impression comes from the filming camera angle and lens.
In general, a patients' "rescue basket" is being placed on the floor underneath the seats as there is a securing rail.

[attachment=2:3bqu4cu9]LASD Rescue 5_10_700.jpg[/attachment:3bqu4cu9]

They did however not place it in the second secured area at the window (red indication on still below):
[attachment=0:3bqu4cu9]LASD Rescue 5_8_700.jpg[/attachment:3bqu4cu9]

The covered stretcher is located on the floor on June 25:
[attachment=1:3bqu4cu9]ucla_coroner_heli_01_700_.jpg[/attachment:3bqu4cu9]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 19, 2011, 01:28:16 PM
Quote
StrangerInCalifornia wrote:
Thats a strong possibility...another possibility is they could have been told it was a dummy serving as a distraction while the "real" body was being transported by van or some other method. In this case they would know it was a dummy, but would not suspect that Michael was alive. It sure would explain the disrespectful way they plopped the body onto the strecher.  :evil:  
I also remember another video where they are carrying the body with I think TT walking in front ( a longer walk) and the body is kinda flopping and bouncing. Does anyone remember that one? Would a cadaver be stiff or floppy?
Here it is at  :44.
[youtube:2anpzmpe]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OjJf02CBtk&playnext=1&list=PL432A7E3EA399319F[/youtube:2anpzmpe]

Bec, that collective mindset. Wouldn't we all agree that there were at least several takes of everything for the 25th scenario, on that day maybe just once, but then on other days were they can have MJ himself, which also allows for doubling up of roles for people in on it. Also this business of telling people not in on it that they are creating a diversion for the real body to be taken elsewhere, could allow for any number of situations such as dummies, no body etc. that would satisfy even the most saavy professionals. Circus says it all.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 19, 2011, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

I don't follow this logic at all. It's wrapped in a sheet. They're not going to go poking around in it if they're under the impression that it's a corpse. So long as "the body" has the right weight and dimensions, no one involved in the helicopter scene would suspect a thing.

Actually I think it makes sense. If it was a dummy - they would have suspected something, and a dummy can't move by itself, like we see it happening.
It must have been a living body if it was moving.
That also explains the erect feet.
I think :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 19, 2011, 01:46:25 PM
Quote from: "MJonmind"
[youtube:2ldkhvgc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OjJf02CBtk&playnext=1&list=PL432A7E3EA399319F[/youtube:2ldkhvgc]


Those moments after 0:44 are actually very difficult to watch. thinking that he might really  be dead, carried by those 4 man, is heart-breaking :(
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 19, 2011, 03:11:26 PM
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
But, honestly, do we have to agree?  And what does agreeing get us? Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get??  I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree.  That's why God made us all different.  To be ourselves.  Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them?  HUMMM  :D

Well, the straight forward answer is that it gets us further progress in the game TS initiated that we agreed to play when we started following this thread.

When I say "game" I mean figuratively.

But 'agreeing' on something doesn't make it the truth - most of the world 'agrees' that MJ is dead! I don't think TS is waiting for us to 'agree'.

I agree (LOL).

Has TS ever said something plain out about the hoax? No. Will he? Nah, don't think so. In the end, did he tell us that the picture was photoshopped? No. He said most likely, but he didn't confirm it. I think the purpose of this 'game' is to let us present different theories, without skipping a possibility.

I have another possibility that may sound strange, but could be another possibility: there was no ambulance at all. What I still think is weird as hell is that there is only ONE video that shows the ambulance coming out of the gates, and no pictures besides the famous NPG pic. There was a tour bus full of people, people on a tour bus have cameras with them. There is a guy filming the ambulance at the beginning of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU) and that close to the concerts, with Mike rehearsing daily, there should have been paparazzi and fans outside the house, but I don't see them. If you freeze the video at certain points where it captures the street, there is no one, besides some fire fighters and a car. And all we've got is that HollywoodTV video and Ben's famous picture. That house was rented weeks before TMZ published it on December 22, 2008: http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-j ... -new-crib/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-jacksons-sleeping-in-a-new-crib/) so in the weeks before no one would have bothered to be around that house. It would also explain why the Christmas stuff was on the gates and the trash was outside. All you have to do in that case is make sure that fans or paps would be removed from the area on June 25 for a few minutes, so that no one can say that they have been there all morning and afternoon and never saw an ambulance. That would mean the picture of the ambulance arriving at UCLA was staged as well, which I believe anyway. Other media outlets only began reporting after he allegedly arrived at the hospital and the timeline is fucked up anyway. According to the LATimes on June 25, he died at 3:15 pm. No one knew that day what they were reporting and who the source was. It was a mess, I remember watching The Situation Room on CNN and reports were messy as hell. They didn't have a clue.

At arriving at UCLA, you close the department, set of the fire alarm and only dr. Cooper has to know, plus one or two bobos from UCLA. In this scenario the following people need to be in the know:

Staff at the house and since I think there weren't many people at the house (we have not heard all those fired staff members after June 25, probably simply because they never exsisted). In other words: Kai Chase, Murray and the bodyguards. The guy who took the 911 call, which must have known it was a fake call and that is probably why he hang up, to be able to pick up real calls. Staff driving ambulance 71 that day and the other uhhmm day, key people from LAPD/LAFD and the FBI, Dr. Cooper and one or two people at UCLA and the coroner. And of course some media: Harvey, Ben Evenstad and probably another freelance pap/undercover FBI agent who is providing media outlets with pictures and video footage.

Think about it, it would be the best to do. Wrap everything up before it happens, just to be sure it will all go well. All that had to be done that day was make the call at the right time, clear the street for a while so no paps and fans would be near the house to notice nothing happened, let the fire alarm go off at the right time at UCLA and send a distraction heli to the coroner. All you need to make it look like it actually happened is some video footage and pictures, they don't have to be made on June 25.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 19, 2011, 03:26:26 PM
I've often times wondered why NO ONE caught the ambulance pulling in.  Seriously, sirens on..no one saw it?  Even the staff?  No one that was let go from their job got a pic??  Along with the thought that cops in USA always come, usually FIRST.  

Also, like I've mentioned, the Christmas wreaths??  In June?  A lot of trash too!!  Prob. because it had just been Christmas.  Like, about the time that article was leaked about him dying to the radio station?????   Then the article of having 6 months to live???

Weird too, that no one has interviewed the neighbors.  Usually they are being interviewed as things progress during "Breaking News".  We did see that one lady being ushered by a cop while in a robe, but no interview.  Surely, someone would say, "yep, I saw Michael Jackson come and go" or, "he'd wave to his fans out there all the time".  Something.  But, nothing says he was even there.  Could've been anyone living there.  Wonder if there is a way to figure out who had the water in their name or the utilities....

Great ideas on your post though Souza :))
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 19, 2011, 04:43:46 PM
Hey guys.....
This is an old post, but an interesting one. It has an article about UCLA that day......

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13259&hilit=+ambulance+arriving (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13259&hilit=+ambulance+arriving)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 19, 2011, 06:03:30 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
But, honestly, do we have to agree?  And what does agreeing get us? Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get??  I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree.  That's why God made us all different.  To be ourselves.  Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them?  HUMMM  :D

Well, the straight forward answer is that it gets us further progress in the game TS initiated that we agreed to play when we started following this thread.

When I say "game" I mean figuratively.

But 'agreeing' on something doesn't make it the truth - most of the world 'agrees' that MJ is dead! I don't think TS is waiting for us to 'agree'.

I agree (LOL).

Has TS ever said something plain out about the hoax? No. Will he? Nah, don't think so. In the end, did he tell us that the picture was photoshopped? No. He said most likely, but he didn't confirm it. I think the purpose of this 'game' is to let us present different theories, without skipping a possibility.


Quote
Let’s also review what has been established so far. Nobody has debunked the main point established in the first level: “… the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ’s face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09.”

First page of this thread. TS wrote that. The photo was planned and staged in advance rather than photoshopping MJ's face in. I realize he is saying MJ's face not being photoshopped but eyesite and common sense should tell us that everything else like the supposed reflections and leaf/face pattern was photoshopped. I think that is why it wasn't necessary for him to even have to confirm that by writing it.

Re-read his post again; he did say he will ignore repeated things. I take that to mean anything that is a repeat. How many times is it necessary for him or anyone to have to talk about the same thing before it becomes redundant, annoying, and wastes precious time now that we are counting down to the end?

I realize I repeat alot because it appears that alot of my posts go unnoticed or if they are noticed people rarely respond to them. Some do take the chance to speak to me, challenge my opinions and theories but on the real I have spoke about alot of stuff that is once again being repeated as if no one read the info. I have wrote about the sheet and the reason for it, I wrote about the feet and proved they can be moved in a cadaver, I wrote that the cadaver can be intubated and posted actual evidence. That's just an example.

I am getting to the point where I am annoyed as hell right now because I feel like some real things are being ignored and other things like movie style theories are being jumped upon and ran with.

I rarely go off like this but I am tired of seeing real strong hard evidence ignored and silly dummy, feet straight as a board, and everyone is in on the hoax or they are recycling people's parts as the now almost consensus way it happened.

I don't need credit for what I have wrote nor am I critisizing people's imagination or theories. I am annoyed at what catches the attention and what goes by as people sleep walk to the easiet answer, don't really use your mind critically and really investigate.

This isn't meant for anyone in particular but a general observation I see.
I do see legitimate evidence being posted by others. I don't want reply posts to my rant saying I am wrong. I don't accuse people of their feelings being wrong. I only defend myself if someone has the wrong impression of me and I correct them. I disagree with people's opinions on certain things and I do state that in a respectful way. If that (any) person and I have to debate respectfully a little until both have an understanding, fine.

I would like to see strong theories against the cadaver theory or a strong theory that a dummy was used. I don't think people's personal assumptions or just opinions posted without evidence to back up claims qualifies as strong proof.
8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 19, 2011, 07:40:13 PM
Imconvinced, you are not the only one in this thread backing up claims, others have as well. But take one advice from me: stop repeating yourself because if your theory doesn't fit people's own theories, you can back it up as much as you want, but they will never see it. Been there, done that. TS is a good example himself. He backed up his posts more than anyone on here, yet there are still people who think he's a fraud, simply because the info he presents does not fit their image of the man they thought they knew. I am also speaking generally here and not about anyone in particular. But you get me.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 19, 2011, 08:50:38 PM
Imconvinced...as pointed out before the helicopter could of been a distraction...so do you think that there were two real bodies or there still could be one dummy?

I was just thinking about Jermaine's airport slip up...so when MJ got to the hospital he was 'gone'...so I am thinking while the body was in the helicopter MJ was getting a flight out of L.A...so possibly the same body that was in the ambo was the same one on the helicopter...like Latoya said 'while your watching this hand, something is going on over here'.

So  I am guessing the people in the ambo are the FBI...and the ones only allowed near the body in the helicopter are also FBI...also the pic of the ambo arriving at the hospital...there are so many paramedics around MJ so could it be that the pic was photoshopped, thinking about what Ben said could the other day be the photo of the ambulance at the hospital, so two photos, one supposed to represent MJ in the ambo and one supposed to be MJ at the hospital...so when MJ (whoever was in the ambo) did come there was only the doctor and the two paramedics...which would make there hardly anyone involved...or the ambulance never went to the hospital at all.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 19, 2011, 09:06:30 PM
In the helicopter there was a change in body or whatever as you can see in this screen capture

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jOei79s-Dqo/TMoMD3yrGyI/AAAAAAAAAGg/BNv__0Fbfvs/s1600/Foto+8c+-+2cuerposhelicoptero.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 19, 2011, 09:48:07 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
But, honestly, do we have to agree?  And what does agreeing get us? Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get??  I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree.  That's why God made us all different.  To be ourselves.  Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them?  HUMMM  :D

Well, the straight forward answer is that it gets us further progress in the game TS initiated that we agreed to play when we started following this thread.

When I say "game" I mean figuratively.

But 'agreeing' on something doesn't make it the truth - most of the world 'agrees' that MJ is dead! I don't think TS is waiting for us to 'agree'.

I agree (LOL).

Has TS ever said something plain out about the hoax? No. Will he? Nah, don't think so. In the end, did he tell us that the picture was photoshopped? No. He said most likely, but he didn't confirm it. I think the purpose of this 'game' is to let us present different theories, without skipping a possibility.

Ok but, I'd like to gently put firmly point out that we have been doing exactly that for nearly 22 months. Why rehash where we have already been so many times before? What we haven't done yet is agree.

So we are supposed to debunk theories and if we cannot do that, and that theory is provided with strong evidence, then it is probably the truth. We know this, this is common sense, and we have been working towards that for... 22 months.

I applaud TS for trying to take an organized approach to it. I think it's a great idea. But without the Thread Starter, we are no more likely to make sense out of this then we already have on our own... for 22 months. Just being on this thread is no different then being on any of the past 1000 threads that contain pages of discussion just like these.

I'm finding myself settling more and more into watch mode. I think we need to remember that this is an illusion. You will not debunk an illusion by watching the performance, that's why it's called an illusion. We are kidding ourselves if we think we might be smart enough to figure it out. I mean, we are one up on the world because at least we figured out that it is an illusion (well, not all of us), but it's looking more and more like that's where the inside scoop starts and ends. It's fun and it's interactive to "investigate the hoax", but it's a lesson in futility to think you can prove it.

I'm wondering if maybe, just maybe, this is what TS's purpose is here. Maybe knock us down to size a little. We? We don't know so much.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 19, 2011, 10:16:52 PM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
Imconvinced...as pointed out before the helicopter could of been a distraction...so do you think that there were two real bodies or there still could be one dummy?

I was just thinking about Jermaine's airport slip up...so when MJ got to the hospital he was 'gone'...so I am thinking while the body was in the helicopter MJ was getting a flight out of L.A...so possibly the same body that was in the ambo was the same one on the helicopter...like Latoya said 'while your watching this hand, something is going on over here'.

So  I am guessing the people in the ambo are the FBI...and the ones only allowed near the body in the helicopter are also FBI...also the pic of the ambo arriving at the hospital...there are so many paramedics around MJ so could it be that the pic was photoshopped, thinking about what Ben said could the other day be the photo of the ambulance at the hospital, so two photos, one supposed to represent MJ in the ambo and one supposed to be MJ at the hospital...so when MJ (whoever was in the ambo) did come there was only the doctor and the two paramedics...which would make there hardly anyone involved...or the ambulance never went to the hospital at all.
Oh thank you for asking.  ;)

The part I enlarged I am going to respond to. First I don't think a dummy was used on 6/25/2009 at the house when the paramedics arrived and transported the cadaver to the hospital. They are unknowing IMO that it is a cadaver and they really thought they were working on MJ. I think the dummy was used only for the fake ambulance pic staged before hand. I am not sure how many cadavers were used but I think at least 1 at the house to the hospital, maybe 2 in the helicopter to save a trip  :?: They took MJ/the cadaver and another dead person at the same time.

I have always agreed the helicopter ride was for a media and public distraction. I also think it was for credibility for the media and the public to see with their eyes on T.V. a dead body being flown to the coroners.

I will add to that. The way our society has become so engrossed in reality television shows or celebrity lives (good or bad) the helicopter ride was for the shock factor and MJ gave the people what they wanted. A freak show. 8-)  :shock: [youtube:inqtlezy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXeWOeWerEw[/youtube:inqtlezy]

I do believe MJ was at the airport like Jermaine said or another possibility is that was a intentional in your face clue for people to wake up and realize MJ is alive. Jermaine could have been using a magic trick also.
8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 19, 2011, 10:29:00 PM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
I will add to that. The way our society has become so engrossed in reality television shows or celebrity lives (good or bad) the helicopter ride was for the shock factor and MJ gave the people what they wanted. A freak show. 8-)  :shock: 8-)

Oh yes I totally agree. I also think the paramedics comments (old man) and the nurse with her propofol statements (hot/cold sides of body) and etc etc etc were also part of the freak show. The whole thing on 6/25 and the aftermath including the highly delayed burial and brain in a jar stories were all one, giant, freak show.

Because a circus is nothing without the freaks.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AllInGoodTime on April 19, 2011, 10:49:33 PM
I think souza is right, the helicopter is irrelevant til you answer who/what was is in ambo.

Honestly, noone has  "real" proof and we all here can justify our own reasoning to make it make sense.  Tho, somewhat disappointed TS started us down this path again and is not available to "guide" us thru,  we can all argue the merits to our points forever.

At some point logic must takeover and fantasy and delusional(only because we want it to be true) ideas as to the events must end and tho no concrete evidence is available, logical and critical thinking must be used in order to discover the events of the hoax.

Example of critical thinking scenarios-
         -Could MJ pull this off alone?
                  -You know must consider the scope, scale and those involved.
                         -Tho we love MJ and he has done a great many things and has met, rubbed and associated with the most powerful  people, we WANT to believe he could do this alone without assistance.
                              -Now considering what we think we know, Is this really possible?  And why?
                                          MJ had/has many influences, and could pay/persaude/reward many people to play along.
                                           Logically without emotion the possibility is very slim.  So you must weigh this versus....
                               -Now consider why this is not possible.  And why.
                                           -could not pay everyone
                                           -or have the influence to do so
                                           -amount of departments, people and resources needed
                                           -coordination , timing and "making the signs match exactly"
                                           -so on and so forth.
For example purposes only, this appears to be heavily favored in the fact he most probably could not do this alone.  Ruling out what your heart feels and your mind wants, it is quite clear MJ needed help.

             And the process continues,  So if help was needed then(next question).  You know have a reference and logical starting point in which to return to when other issues/questions arise.

In time, the answers will answer themselves with the questions you have already debated.  And a more realistic conculsion can be made.

MY heart says I see MJ move in the copter.  Tho lighting and angles says it could be just that.  But in fact, that very question could be answered without all the "what if" providing critical thinking is applied from the beginning and  logic is used to interpet what you find.  Because if we discover the answer to the body , we discover the ambulance, we discover the pic, the phone call etc etc.  Which answers if/what was in copter.  But all these answers are answered if you start at the bginnning.

Not saying the way each of you research and/or deduct your ideas is wrong, just maybe giving a different thought process that can be used.  Ideas pertaining to all the various issues can give multiple results and moreso if not done in a chronilogical order.  By concluding the questions in the order in which the happen will rule out many of "far fetched" ideads we have.  (and I have had many)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 19, 2011, 11:26:58 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4746/fbii.jpg)

It’s now time for the third level!   :D  8-)  :)

The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital.  And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA?  MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?

Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better; #2 once you have a theory, try to debunk your own theory; #3 we are looking for a theory that has at least two different strong points, which nobody can debunk.

Let’s also review what has been established so far.  Nobody has debunked the main point established in the first level: “… the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ’s face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185}.  As always, if you want to try and debunk something, please inform yourself first of what has already been discussed; I will usually ignore questions or objections which are just a repeat, and have already been answered.

In the second level, there have been a few strong points in support of FBI involvement; and nobody has debunked any of these strong points {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461}.

First and foremost, as in other areas of the hoax, the numerology speaks volumes; Andrea recently had an excellent post on FBI numerology, as well as some Joe/Joseph information {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514}.  

The Elvis connection is another strong point in support of MJ having FBI help, and explains a lot on how this hoax could be pulled off successfully with LAFD and other government entities involved {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314370&#p314370; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313872&#p313872; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313381&#p313381}.


Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial!  “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year.  Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” {http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams}.

Last and maybe least—but still a big clue, is Marlon wearing the FBI cap on more than one occasion
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1000#p320865; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6456&start=0#p103786}.

In spite of the fact that nobody has debunked any of the above points, there have been a couple of general questions or objections to FBI involvement—including but not limited to who oversees the FBI {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1050#p321369}.  And there were several good replies
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321814; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321843; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321890; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321894; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1100#p322044}.

There were also questions about why, if the FBI is involved, would there be any numerology and other clues—wouldn’t the FBI do the fake death so well, that nobody would know a thing?  This is a very good question; but there are good answers.  First of all, we know that Elvis had government help; and we also know that he used numerology and other clues.

But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment.  “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment}.

If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment.  However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.

The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.  Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.  

On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.

Hey guys.....
I want to re-visit the beginning of this thread.  The question of entrapment has bothered me to no end.  I feel like this is an important piece of the hoax.  TS tell us hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  I can understand the reasoning behind that statement.  Collectively, we have produced mountains of evidence for many points of view.  I am sure law students could learn a thing or two from these forums! It also begs to question who started these forums to begin with and who is really prompting the discussions.  TS tells us that if there were no hoax clues, then the FBI/Michael could be accused of entrapment.  Entrapping who or what is an obvious question.....Dr./pharmacy Feelgoods? Concert threats? Life threats? Controlling music industry....and more I am sure.....take your pick of what would need this magnitude of hoax.  If it's a sting operation (non-entrapement variety)  it's still going on, and we must be playing some sort of role, wouldn't you think?  
As for TS's ALL or none of the paramedics being in on it:
1) If all are in on it, then the statements of "the room was warm" or "we didn't recognize MJ, looked like a frail old man" were just that.....false statements.  I need to check, but, I am thinking we heard those things in the media before any pre-trial hearing etc.  If so, they are statements recounted in the courts, they should be taken as such. They are not, therefor, to be taken as testimony under oath.  They are in fact false statements...not perjury, there is a difference.
2) If all paramedics are not in on it, a body most certainly would have been needed.  The FBI would have had to make sure that everything was precise.  This would have been done to protect the paramedics from a fight of their own in court.  If it's proved that Michael didn't die, it would open up a huge hole of trust within the emergency system in LA.  However, if the FBI did their job right, even professional paramedics would have claimed MJ died June 25th.  Trust in emergency personnel would never be brought into question if a real body was used.  Also, there would be no issue with paramedics lying in court, perjury.  In their minds, they had a patient, it was Michael Jackson.  That's all they knew.  
Keeping with the paramedics for a moment, wouldn't it be plausible to think they would start to question things?  If they watch their own ambulance backing up, would a real paramedic be proud of that response time drive?  I don't think so.  With the mountain of evidence presented on forums/videos, it shows an overall slow-response....which is (pardon the pun) the kiss of death in an emergency.  So, unless the paramedics are the bad guys (which I doubt), it was staged.  Staged, mostly likely with a mix of real paramedics (that handled either a body, Michael, or a dummy), FBI agents for the other emergency personnel (that don't know how to turn around an ambulance, or help back the ambulance out), and a sprinkle of actors as calm guards, released workers, paparazzi and on-lookers.  
So, where am I going with this...good question.  I began this with talking about entrapment.  TS  had quoted part of the Wiki about a sting operation, here's the rest:

"Ethical and legal concerns

Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment. Law-enforcement may have to be careful not to provoke the commission of a crime by someone who would not normally be inclined to do so. Additionally, in the process of such operations, the police often engage in the same crimes, such as buying or selling contraband, soliciting prostitutes, etc. In common law jurisdictions, the defendant may invoke the defense of entrapment.
Contrary to popular misconceptions, however, entrapment does not prohibit undercover police officers from posing as criminals or denying that they are police.[2] Entrapment is typically only a defense if a suspect is pressured into committing a crime they would probably not have committed otherwise, though the legal definition of this pressure varies greatly from country to country. For example, if undercover officers coerced a potential suspect into manufacturing illegal drugs to sell them, then the accused could use entrapment as a defense. However, if a suspect is already manufacturing drugs and police pose as buyers to catch him, then entrapment usually has not occurred."   ~Wikipedia

I believe their backs are covered if it's a sting....it's a matter of watch and wait for us.  I do not believe there would be any charge of entrapment for anything.  Everyone did their job that day (or maybe the other day...) I'm not sure we have the ability to decipher who or what was on the stretcher.....or if we are meant to.  Does it matter?  Here in Hoaxland, it's nice to be able and say for sure things happened a certain way.  However, if we are talking about the meaning of the hoax, why he hoaxed, a deeper meaning or whatever.....do we have to discover what was on the stretcher?  Will it change the outcome of reason?  Please, don't get me wrong......I am darn curious.  I'd like to know for sure.  I just don't know if it's possible.  I am more interested in the entrapment issue at the moment.  Please don't tell me Murray is going to invoke the defense of entrapment.  Or, maybe that's the next perfect step in an otherwise perfect hoax.  I still believe Poe is a great influence.  Here is a site that lists his hoaxes:

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/poe.html (http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/poe.html)

I believe we are still in the depths of the hoax.  Although, every once in a while, I see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.  A simmering pot needs to be refilled before running dry and burning up.  Clues, coincidences, media sightings, slip-ups, the trial........it's all part of the simmer.

Well, here's to simmering.  I couldn't think of a nicer group of folks to simmer with ;)
Blessings to you all........and you TS.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 02:14:35 AM
Duh moment, I forgot about this. The paramedics would be bound by HIPAA, so they never could have made those kinds of statements to the press in regards to a real patient they treated . "It looked like a frail old man".
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: annieareyouok on April 20, 2011, 02:16:41 AM
Souza, that is the best theory I have heard yet!!!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 20, 2011, 03:00:57 AM
Quote from: "bec"
I'm finding myself settling more and more into watch mode. I think we need to remember that this is an illusion. You will not debunk an illusion by watching the performance, that's why it's called an illusion. We are kidding ourselves if we think we might be smart enough to figure it out. I mean, we are one up on the world because at least we figured out that it is an illusion (well, not all of us), but it's looking more and more like that's where the inside scoop starts and ends. It's fun and it's interactive to "investigate the hoax", but it's a lesson in futility to think you can prove it.

Yup, me too (settling into watch mode). I have never even been able to work out how they saw a lady in half, I never guess 'whodunnit', so what chance have I here with what is possibly the most complex illusion the world has ever been shown?!

Thinking this is an illusion makes me realise that nothing is as it seems or has been presented to us. There are no definites, only maybes. In my opinion it is an arrogant presumption to claim we have 'proved' anything.

I've sometimes wondered if this hoax will end when we've all personally decided to leave, having recognised we're not going to ever work it out! A collective 'hands up, we give in, tell us how you did it' sort of thing!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Sarahli on April 20, 2011, 05:08:27 AM
Is there an end to the rabbit hole?  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 20, 2011, 05:09:00 AM
Quote from: "paula-c"
In the helicopter there was a change in body or whatever as you can see in this screen capture

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jOei79s-Dqo/TMoMD3yrGyI/AAAAAAAAAGg/BNv__0Fbfvs/s1600/Foto+8c+-+2cuerposhelicoptero.jpg)
Thanks for the reminder of this from way back, and it sure shows they wanted us to know there was trickery going on. So if the heli paramedics were not in the know, and were told this body was for distraction, then what would they think the other body was for. It would be rather not convincing for the general public to see that. To me it proves the heli people are in on the hoax.
Quote
by bec » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:14 am
Duh moment, I forgot about this. The paramedics would be bound by HIPAA, so they never could have made those kinds of statements to the press in regards to a real patient they treated . "It looked like a frail old man".
I agree they would have kept their mouths shut like the UCLA staff did. And the 911 call where they hang up also shows wrong action too. That HIPAA would also apply to Klein. On and on.

Im_convincedmjalive, I always appreciate your detailed strong arguments. I read everyone’s posts and try to imagine how their ideas would fit with everything, keep new info on my back burner files. (Though I wished I had a better memory recall.) When something someone says seems to be a missing piece or new, it grabs my attention. I’m not a strong arguer, but I kinda go by my heart in what seems to make the most sense considering all the other info my brain has processed. Probably most all of us feel like our posts and hard work are ignored, but there’s just such a variety of opinions here as to the hows and whys. We all just have to press on like a team/army, and assume we are making a contribution over-all.

I agree about the illusion. MJ has planned the details of this hoax to cause our investitation to lead us in circles. It's hard to rest a fact on evidence that could be taken several ways with several possibilities, and round and round it goes. TS mostly avoids committing to a hoax fact. Like one said, after 22 months how much do we know for sure. It's torture disguised as fun!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 20, 2011, 07:31:56 AM
Here is a link to hipaa laws:

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/un ... index.html (http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/index.html)


blessings!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 20, 2011, 08:43:17 AM
By July, all chiefs that were in office that day, will either have resigned, or have their terms ended.

LAPD Chief William Bratton form LAFD resigned in August 2009, leaving office October 31, 2009:

Quote
Bratton, 61, announced Wednesday that he will be leaving the department on October 31, with three years left in his second five-year term.
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bratton-resigns,0,6544648.story)

Fire Chief Douglas Barry resigned on May 28, 2009, leaving office August 31, 2009:

Quote
Los Angeles Fire Department Chief Douglas Barry, who took office two years ago and vowed to reform the troubled department, will retire effective Aug. 31..
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-chief-barry-resigns,0,4528069.story)

Director of FBI Robert Mueller's term ends July 5, 2011 (FBI Director's term is now max. 10 years):

Quote
Mueller was nominated for the position of FBI Director on July 5, 2001.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mue ... ppointment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mueller#FBI_appointment)

Former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's term ended this January.

Amir Dan Rubin, the Chief Operating Officer at UCLA left UCLA in December 2010[/color]
http://www.linkedin.com/in/amirdanrubin (http://www.linkedin.com/in/amirdanrubin)

That's this guy:

[youtube:okqgtzkw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVaEaDty5_Y[/youtube:okqgtzkw]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MissG on April 20, 2011, 10:49:24 AM
Michael is alive. Whatever intervention went that day for whatever reason "killing" the MJ we used to have makes me think of 2 scenarios: -MJ alive taken to the hospital for a check-up (autopsy), -a "body" used to pull a credible scenario for MJ to leave and live in peace.

We have an emotional perception of the events even tho we try to be objective. Many similarities with Murray´s case links to MJ´s situations in 93 and 2003-4-5.

Wait and see mood is all I can do by now. I got many theories written in my pc, too long to read and ilogical at times but to me, makes sense.

I cannot prove if MJ is alive and anyway my opinion/ thesis would be just that, an opinion coming from someone who never had contact with MJ so it´s irrelevant what i have to say. IDK what happened in that room, I can only assume and assumptions are not facts nor the truth.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MsTrinity333 on April 20, 2011, 11:07:55 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
But, honestly, do we have to agree?  And what does agreeing get us? Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get??  I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree.  That's why God made us all different.  To be ourselves.  Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them?  HUMMM  :D

Well, the straight forward answer is that it gets us further progress in the game TS initiated that we agreed to play when we started following this thread.

When I say "game" I mean figuratively.

But 'agreeing' on something doesn't make it the truth - most of the world 'agrees' that MJ is dead! I don't think TS is waiting for us to 'agree'.

I agree (LOL).

Has TS ever said something plain out about the hoax? No. Will he? Nah, don't think so. In the end, did he tell us that the picture was photoshopped? No. He said most likely, but he didn't confirm it. I think the purpose of this 'game' is to let us present different theories, without skipping a possibility.

I have another possibility that may sound strange, but could be another possibility: there was no ambulance at all. What I still think is weird as hell is that there is only ONE video that shows the ambulance coming out of the gates, and no pictures besides the famous NPG pic. There was a tour bus full of people, people on a tour bus have cameras with them. There is a guy filming the ambulance at the beginning of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU) and that close to the concerts, with Mike rehearsing daily, there should have been paparazzi and fans outside the house, but I don't see them. If you freeze the video at certain points where it captures the street, there is no one, besides some fire fighters and a car. And all we've got is that HollywoodTV video and Ben's famous picture. That house was rented weeks before TMZ published it on December 22, 2008: http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-j ... -new-crib/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-jacksons-sleeping-in-a-new-crib/) so in the weeks before no one would have bothered to be around that house. It would also explain why the Christmas stuff was on the gates and the trash was outside. All you have to do in that case is make sure that fans or paps would be removed from the area on June 25 for a few minutes, so that no one can say that they have been there all morning and afternoon and never saw an ambulance. That would mean the picture of the ambulance arriving at UCLA was staged as well, which I believe anyway. Other media outlets only began reporting after he allegedly arrived at the hospital and the timeline is fucked up anyway. According to the LATimes on June 25, he died at 3:15 pm. No one knew that day what they were reporting and who the source was. It was a mess, I remember watching The Situation Room on CNN and reports were messy as hell. They didn't have a clue.

At arriving at UCLA, you close the department, set of the fire alarm and only dr. Cooper has to know, plus one or two bobos from UCLA. In this scenario the following people need to be in the know:

Staff at the house and since I think there weren't many people at the house (we have not heard all those fired staff members after June 25, probably simply because they never exsisted). In other words: Kai Chase, Murray and the bodyguards. The guy who took the 911 call, which must have known it was a fake call and that is probably why he hang up, to be able to pick up real calls. Staff driving ambulance 71 that day and the other uhhmm day, key people from LAPD/LAFD and the FBI, Dr. Cooper and one or two people at UCLA and the coroner. And of course some media: Harvey, Ben Evenstad and probably another freelance pap/undercover FBI agent who is providing media outlets with pictures and video footage.

Think about it, it would be the best to do. Wrap everything up before it happens, just to be sure it will all go well. All that had to be done that day was make the call at the right time, clear the street for a while so no paps and fans would be near the house to notice nothing happened, let the fire alarm go off at the right time at UCLA and send a distraction heli to the coroner. All you need to make it look like it actually happened is some video footage and pictures, they don't have to be made on June 25.
[/b]

Bang-A-Rang Souza!
I think you may be on to something.
:lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 11:13:05 AM
Live helicopter footage did have to happen on 6/25.

Only the paramedics, Dr. Cooper, and the coroner need be in on it. I think I said that back in defense of no body theory.

Jeff Mills wife blogging about it means ambulance had to be at Carrolwood on 6/25. Of course Jeff Mills could have lied to his wife  :?  not sure about that.

And then we have tour bus footage. Could be an elaborate plant full of actors/actresses, but then that's a lot of people in on it.

I think rather then no ambulance on 6/25, it's more like no body  ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MissG on April 20, 2011, 11:14:59 AM
Live helicopter happened but not necessarely the live helicopter we saw in videos and pics.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 11:19:11 AM
It was on live TV Gema. If it was not really live, that's a lot of people in the media in on it. That doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MissG on April 20, 2011, 11:34:24 AM
Quote from: "bec"
It was on live TV Gema. If it was not really live, that's a lot of people in the media in on it. That doesn't make sense to me.

The situation happened live, but who tells it was MJ in that helicopter?

A helicopter went out flying and the tv cameras got the image but those images are not necessarely telling us that MJ, his body, is in them. It is A helicopter flying over people creating the illusion.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 11:36:10 AM
Quote from: "Gema"
Quote from: "bec"
It was on live TV Gema. If it was not really live, that's a lot of people in the media in on it. That doesn't make sense to me.

The situation happened live, but who tells it was MJ in that helicopter?

A helicopter went out flying and the tv cameras got the image but those images are not necessarely telling us that MJ, his body, is in them. It is A helicopter flying over people creating the illusion.

Well yes of course. I was replying to your earlier comment:
Quote
Live helicopter happened but not necessarely the live helicopter we saw in videos and pics.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 20, 2011, 12:27:43 PM
Quote from: "bec"
It was on live TV Gema. If it was not really live, that's a lot of people in the media in on it. That doesn't make sense to me.

Live footage does not necessarily mean really true footage.
The "live" reportage on the heli flight was faked by several TV stations as they cut together whatever material they had in their archives about a LASD Rescue 5 chopper.

The same chopper allegedly was flying "live" over Beverly Hills and was passing by AON tower located between 6th street and Wilshire Blvd and was also "live" passing by KPMG tower, which is located between 3rd and 4th street in downtown L.A..

http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=17767&p=303395#p303395

[youtube:5e992sba]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL4BY-FL2Vs[/youtube:5e992sba]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL4BY-FL2Vs

[youtube:5e992sba]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e7w4a5kE9U[/youtube:5e992sba]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e7w4a5kE9U

 ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 20, 2011, 12:37:44 PM
I am lost. I know nothing. Everything is a huge mess.
Why couldn't it be Michael dead all the way from Carlwood to coroner?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: EarthAngel77 on April 20, 2011, 01:01:13 PM
This whole hoax could have been filmed inside the Staple center using Blue and green screen with a few live parts and props.  I think that someimes Michael is even Dr. Murray.  The We are the World green man makes me wonder.  Because if you can put yourself in a video just by using green screen, I would take advantage of that.  The bruial as we know had Green screen background. All we have are a few pictures, but no witnesses at the hospital or anything else.  NO-BODY
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 20, 2011, 01:40:41 PM
Quote from: "bec"
And then we have tour bus footage. Could be an elaborate plant full of actors/actresses, but then that's a lot of people in on it.

3 scenarios besides it being a real tour bus with real tourists on June 25 (in that case: where the F are the pictures and videos from the tourists??):

- There was no ambulance on June 25, they shot it in December 2008 so people in the bus didn't bother to make a picture because they didn't know MJ lived there. In that case one would expect though that some of the tourists might have recognized themselves yet we haven't heard from any of them saying it was not on June 25.

- It wasn't recorded on June 25, but in December and the people in the tour bus are not real tourists but FBI agents.

- It was really on June 25 but the tourists were FBI agents and that is why they never made pictures.

Too many people to be agents? Just watch Breach, where there were 50 agents working on the sting against the mole in the FBI and this movie was based on a real sting. 50 agents would also mean you have 50 potential actors for this movie.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on April 20, 2011, 01:52:32 PM
Quote from: "paula-c"
In the helicopter there was a change in body or whatever as you can see in this screen capture

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jOei79s-Dqo/TMoMD3yrGyI/AAAAAAAAAGg/BNv__0Fbfvs/s1600/Foto+8c+-+2cuerposhelicoptero.jpg)
Thanks Paula! That was the exact picture i was looking for! I think that the "body" in the back with the straps is whatever was carried out of UCLA and put in the helicopter. The "bodies" were either switched when we saw the "body" moving or before the helicopter even took off when they closed the door briefly.

Sorry the video is in french. But around 1:45-1:55 it looks like there is some activity going on in there...could be my imagination though.
[youtube:3mkxdthe]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jModUKEKww&feature=player_embedded#at=95[/youtube:3mkxdthe]

I think the flat surfboard looking thing that was unloaded from the helicopter and put into the coroners van was already on the helicopter in the first place. Not sure how this fits into our respective theories, but its something to think about. I would love to hear your opinions on this.  :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 20, 2011, 02:11:58 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "bec"
And then we have tour bus footage. Could be an elaborate plant full of actors/actresses, but then that's a lot of people in on it.

3 scenarios besides it being a real tour bus with real tourists on June 25 (in that case: where the F are the pictures and videos from the tourists??):

This is the only tourist bus video I came across and it's of remarkable quality (mp4).
Just to mention. At 0:12 there is a voice saying "look, look, look, look, look".
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a_michael-jackson-depart-ambulance-de_news

This voice reminds me of a voice outside of Ed Hardy's store in May 2009 at 2:00:
"comma, comma, comma, comma":
[youtube:5vow3khz]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZJ_fA15uh4[/youtube:5vow3khz]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZJ_fA15uh4
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 20, 2011, 02:53:50 PM
Quote from: "Grace"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "bec"
And then we have tour bus footage. Could be an elaborate plant full of actors/actresses, but then that's a lot of people in on it.

3 scenarios besides it being a real tour bus with real tourists on June 25 (in that case: where the F are the pictures and videos from the tourists??):

This is the only tourist bus video I came across and it's of remarkable quality (mp4).
Just to mention. At 0:12 there is a voice saying "look, look, look, look, look".
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a_michael-jackson-depart-ambulance-de_news

This voice reminds me of a voice outside of Ed Hardy's store in May 2009 at 2:00:
"comma, comma, comma, comma":
[youtube:mzb1v0jb]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZJ_fA15uh4[/youtube:mzb1v0jb]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZJ_fA15uh4

am I crazy or between 1:57  and 2:04 there are two Michaels in that video? I mean two men dresses the same green coat with shades and hats and surgical masks on ? Or is a mirror image?

Anyway.....those strange clothes must be a statement of disgust to the media, I see no other reason for a man in love with himself to wear that green and that red.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 20, 2011, 03:10:04 PM
Gina, it's a wall mirror.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 20, 2011, 03:20:16 PM
yes a mirror image...I must be really tired. I don't see how that mirror is positioned there cause I can't see the reflection of the guy in black....doesn't matter anyway.

Good night everyone.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 20, 2011, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: "Grace"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "bec"
And then we have tour bus footage. Could be an elaborate plant full of actors/actresses, but then that's a lot of people in on it.

3 scenarios besides it being a real tour bus with real tourists on June 25 (in that case: where the F are the pictures and videos from the tourists??):

This is the only tourist bus video I came across and it's of remarkable quality (mp4).
Just to mention. At 0:12 there is a voice saying "look, look, look, look, look".
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a_michael-jackson-depart-ambulance-de_news

This voice reminds me of a voice outside of Ed Hardy's store in May 2009 at 2:00:
"comma, comma, comma, comma":
[youtube:1ygizo6w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZJ_fA15uh4[/youtube:1ygizo6w]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZJ_fA15uh4

Oh yes of course, I forgot about that video. Gonna watch now.

Back to the ambulance picture (off topic but weird) Ben says Chris took 3 pictures at 1:44:
[youtube:1ygizo6w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI[/youtube:1ygizo6w]

How come we have 4 clear pictures?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: finfin on April 20, 2011, 06:06:06 PM
@Souza
Quote
How come we have 4 clear pictures?
Yes, how come indeed?  :shock:  I wonder if @TS_comments has the answer to this puzzle  :?:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 20, 2011, 06:17:20 PM
Quote
MJonmind wrote:
Im_convincedmjalive, I always appreciate your detailed strong arguments. I read everyone’s posts and try to imagine how their ideas would fit with everything, keep new info on my back burner files. (Though I wished I had a better memory recall.) When something someone says seems to be a missing piece or new, it grabs my attention. I’m not a strong arguer, but I kinda go by my heart in what seems to make the most sense considering all the other info my brain has processed. Probably most all of us feel like our posts and hard work are ignored, but there’s just such a variety of opinions here as to the hows and whys. We all just have to press on like a team/army, and assume we are making a contribution over-all.
Thank you for saying that. However what I enlarged is kinda the problem as I see it. I am not saying that thinking with your heart (emotions) is wrong but in this situation right now when trying to investigate whether a dummy or corpse was used; the mind needs to take over. I am not talking about you personally but in general.

When I investigate I have to seperate my heart and personal feelings. I look at it from a showmanship side of illusion and what can be done to fake some things and then what is real as far as using a corpse. I found info to tell me that alot of things can be done with a corpse to make it possible to use in the illusion of the hoax as a whole.

There were statements made by others that were not challenged. I waited to see if anyone else would take the reign in proving statements wrong before I went and researched and found out certain things are possible. My learning all that I have presented with an exception to a few things I just found out within the start of this thread. I read what people wrote and then proved the opposite with medical evidence that certain things can be done.

I was not annoyed because I worked hard and felt my posts were ignored on a personal feely type thing. I was annoyed because it appeared that some people were so against the idea of a corpse that they dismissed it from the jump. The goal of these threads from the beginning was TS trying to inspire critical thinking and how to investigate or not to investigate. He expressed how important and valuable these skills are to have in life. I agree. Therefore my feeling of being annoyed was from watching how many people weren't taking advantage of this opportunity. I am not referring to those who never posted in these threads.

I was annoyed at the level of some just taking someone's word that was an assumption and some people not challenging those false statements. I observed how easy it was for some people to agree with a false statement and go right along with it. That is very dangerous in real life to just jump off a cliff because you never question if it is the right thing to do or not. I don't mean you personally nor am I calling out anyone specifically that have done this. I am a people watcher by nature that is what I have done my whole life. I am amazed at the level of society and how dumbed down T.V. has made people and how easy it will be for some to just fold and go along with what the NWO says.

Let me make this clear I am not perfect and I have fell for lies too but every time I got my ass kicked sometimes literally I learned from that experience how to sharpen my thinking skills. I learned more and more how to aviod being in a bad situation.

I appreciate everyones input regardless if I don't agree and I respect people's opinions even if they differ from mine. I do think we are smart enough to figure out some things that are possible. I do not underestimate my abilities or my mind. I know there are going to be some details that will never be told. This isn't the issue.

I included people's posts in some of mine and I acknowledge that others will see things differently but regardless of whether your not a good arguer or not; my thing is for everyone to just try. Try and challenge what I wrote, try to debunk my theories. Don't just give up because it may seem hard. This is a general statement about what I have observed in the 1 year plus I have been on the forum and it applys to all of the things I read.

That was my annoyance about what I wrote yesterday. I am done explaining my theory and I am done saying how I feel at this point because it won't help and maybe distract. I just wanted to make what I wrote more clear.

Peace
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 20, 2011, 06:32:37 PM
Quote from: "finfin"
@Souza
Quote
How come we have 4 clear pictures?
Yes, how come indeed?  :shock:  I wonder if @TS_comments has the answer to this puzzle  :?:

Which day? :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 20, 2011, 06:35:12 PM
I got an answer from Washington State about the Death with Dignity Act. I asked if it would be possible for a Washington resident to have the drugs prescribed by a doctor from Washington, but self-administer the fatal drug in another state like California. This is the reply I received:

Quote
Hi Souza,
 
Under the terms of the act,  the participant is free to take the medication in a location of their choice.  However, the laws in other states may be different regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication.  Additionally,  if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease.  In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose.    
 
In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as ‘Natural”.
 
The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member’s participation were to be disclosed.  They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as “assisted suicide.”  The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.
 
There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State’s law.
 
Sincerely,
***

So the real body is still an option since we now know they could have planned the death date without breaking any laws.  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 06:43:23 PM
Ambulance footage can't be filmed in December, the shadows indicate the sun is high in the sky. In December north of the equator, even at noon the shadows are very long. Also the perennials are summer flowering and the trees are deciduous and leafed out. It is the growing season, it is late spring or early summer by the vegetation.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 06:52:30 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
I got an answer from Washington State about the Death with Dignity Act. I asked if it would be possible for a Washington resident to have the drugs prescribed by a doctor from Washington, but self-administer the fatal drug in another state like California. This is the reply I received:

Quote
Hi Souza,
 
Under the terms of the act,  the participant is free to take the medication in a location of their choice.  However, the laws in other states may be different regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication.  Additionally,  if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease.  In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose.    
 
In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as ‘Natural”.
 
The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member’s participation were to be disclosed.  They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as “assisted suicide.”  The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.
 
There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State’s law.
 
Sincerely,
***

So the real body is still an option since we now know they could have planned the death date without breaking any laws.  

That's not what the letter says at all. In a state where it's legal (WA in this case), the death is considered natural. In a state where assisted suicide is not legal it's considered suicide. Once it's considered suicide there are laws and protocol that apply. There are laws against standing by a suicide and not calling authorities, not reporting a suicide... layman's terms but you get the idea. You can't consider it legal.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 20, 2011, 06:55:07 PM
Yes, I noticed the flowering. Means we're back where we started and we have no clue what or who was in the ambulance. I am back at the real body. Dummy is too hard to get rid off and seems risky. Besides that, why would a dummy look like a sick old frail man?  Nothing at all is too risky as well, paps could have been around with telelenses when they arrived at UCLA. Too unpredictable. And MJ wasn't on that stretcher either, because as far as I'm aware, he doesn't look like a sick old frail man and he would have to leave the hospital unnoticed as well. I just can't see that happening.

TS, enough with the torture! Our brains are the size of peanuts. If you want us to ever post and intelligent and well thought of replies, you better come save our aching heads! :lol:  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 20, 2011, 06:59:14 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
I got an answer from Washington State about the Death with Dignity Act. I asked if it would be possible for a Washington resident to have the drugs prescribed by a doctor from Washington, but self-administer the fatal drug in another state like California. This is the reply I received:

Quote
Hi Souza,
 
Under the terms of the act,  the participant is free to take the medication in a location of their choice.  However, the laws in other states may be different regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication.  Additionally,  if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease.  In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose.    
 
In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as ‘Natural”.
 
The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member’s participation were to be disclosed.  They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as “assisted suicide.”  The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.
 
There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State’s law.
 
Sincerely,
***

So the real body is still an option since we now know they could have planned the death date without breaking any laws.  

That's not what the letter says at all. In a state where it's legal (WA in this case), the death is considered natural. In a state where assisted suicide is not legal it's considered suicide. Once it's considered suicide there are laws and protocol that apply. There are laws against standing by a suicide and not calling authorities, not reporting a suicide... layman's terms but you get the idea. You can't consider it legal.

California has his own assisted suicide protocol. It differs from the Washington one but it's allowed there. Also, Murray was not in the room, he fell asleep, went to the bathroom and got on the phone all at once, only to return and find 'MJ' not breathing.

I am going to mail Cali about this issue, to see what they say.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 07:04:55 PM
The paramedics have to be IOI, HIPAA laws prevent them from calling any patient they work on a "frail old man", or calling him anything at all. They can't say shit.

By default, end of debate, they're IOI.

They did say "it" and that to me is the most interesting word of all. Like they are hinting that the frail old man was inanimate. So it's a planted, scripted statement. Too easy, probably to throw us off the trail  :lol:

We have hints all along the way that this was an alive MJ at each stage. Ambulance pic shows young, healthy MJ. Pics released with MJ sitting up on the stretcher going into UCLA. Body of MJ moves in helicopter. MJ jumps out of coroner van. Very Hollywood, just like in the movies.

It is a movie so why not? An illusion within an illusion? The whole sequence is supposed to look like it is MJ himself who is supposed to look like he's dead. What it really is might be anyone's guess.

Sticking with no body. I still fail to see the benefit.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 07:06:55 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
I got an answer from Washington State about the Death with Dignity Act. I asked if it would be possible for a Washington resident to have the drugs prescribed by a doctor from Washington, but self-administer the fatal drug in another state like California. This is the reply I received:

Quote
Hi Souza,
 
Under the terms of the act,  the participant is free to take the medication in a location of their choice.  However, the laws in other states may be different regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication.  Additionally,  if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease.  In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose.    
 
In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as ‘Natural”.
 
The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member’s participation were to be disclosed.  They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as “assisted suicide.”  The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.
 
There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State’s law.
 
Sincerely,
***

So the real body is still an option since we now know they could have planned the death date without breaking any laws.  

That's not what the letter says at all. In a state where it's legal (WA in this case), the death is considered natural. In a state where assisted suicide is not legal it's considered suicide. Once it's considered suicide there are laws and protocol that apply. There are laws against standing by a suicide and not calling authorities, not reporting a suicide... layman's terms but you get the idea. You can't consider it legal.

California has his own assisted suicide protocol. It differs from the Washington one but it's allowed there. Also, Murray was not in the room, he fell asleep, went to the bathroom and got on the phone all at once, only to return and find 'MJ' not breathing.

I am going to mail Cali about this issue, to see what they say.

No they don't, they only have a law to allow the removal of a feeding tube. That's a completely different situation. Euthanasia, which is what the suicide pills are, is not legal in California and it is considered suicide.

But I am curious what Cali replies with.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 20, 2011, 07:21:31 PM
Quote from: "bec"
The paramedics have to be IOI, HIPAA laws prevent them from calling any patient they work on a "frail old man", or calling him anything at all. They can't say shit.

By default, end of debate, they're IOI.

They did say "it" and that to me is the most interesting word of all. Like they are hinting that the frail old man was inanimate. So it's a planted, scripted statement. Too easy, probably to throw us off the trail  :lol:

We have hints all along the way that this was an alive MJ at each stage. Ambulance pic shows young, healthy MJ. Pics released with MJ sitting up on the stretcher going into UCLA. Body of MJ moves in helicopter. MJ jumps out of coroner van. Very Hollywood, just like in the movies.

It is a movie so why not? An illusion within an illusion? The whole sequence is supposed to look like it is MJ himself who is supposed to look like he's dead. What it really is might be anyone's guess.

Sticking with no body. I still fail to see the benefit.

Mmmyes, that's what I've been thinking too.  What's the need for a real dead body in an illusion?

I am, however, open to any possibilities and I make sure to read every post here. It's just that the above is what makes most sense to me.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 20, 2011, 08:51:21 PM
No body at all would be best, I agree. It's easy, safe and holly-jolly. But in that case we should have to debunk the real corpse theory, which hasn't happened yet. Therefore it's still a possibility. Just because we can't see a reason as to why they would use a real corpse, doesn't mean there isn't one. We might have overlooked something or we might not have enough info to determine whether or not there is a significant reason to use a real body. Although I am aware of the fact that it is a movie and that a lot is very entertaining, hence it was the first theory that popped into my mind nearly 2 years ago, I also see very serious matters with pharmacies involved and a dead? Evan Chandler on November 5th. It's not ALL just for fun. So the dead person is not debunked unless someone comes up with a few very strong arguments against it. I am not saying that it is probably true, I just think we should really debunk it, not based on emotions. Anyway, I mailed California with some questions regarding assisted suicide and the legal issues involved. As soon as I have a reply, you will know. Maybe they can debunk the theory for once and for all, maybe they won't and in that case we will know nothing more. Until now this thread is a long one and still every possibility TS pointed out, is still possible.

Well thanks TS, at least you keep us out of trouble... :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 08:57:11 PM
Lol holly-jolly.

Yes, Evan Chandler 11/5 wasn't so holly-jolly was it. That one bugs me.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 20, 2011, 09:07:19 PM
OK......here's a new thought to maul over......
the body was FBI (alive) .....in disguise or not...whatever.....he's an agent, posing as Michael, goes into the ambulance, goes to hospital...explains the situation to the doctors etc....the rest is history....or something like that.

OK....back to thoughts.......

Blessings Always!

PS>  just have to say, you guys have been rockin' the theories lately.....love it when things make me think!  Thank you!   :) More Blessings........
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 20, 2011, 09:13:20 PM
Quote from: "wishingstar"
OK......here's a new thought to maul over......
the body was FBI (alive) .....in disguise or not...whatever.....he's an agent, posing as Michael, goes into the ambulance, goes to hospital...explains the situation to the doctors etc....the rest is history....or something like that.

OK....back to thoughts.......

Blessings Always!

PS>  just have to say, you guys have been rockin' the theories lately.....love it when things make me think!  Thank you!   :) More Blessings........

No, that doesn't sound like a carefully planned hoax/sting either by MJ or the FBI.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 09:32:19 PM
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 20, 2011, 10:28:47 PM
The first tabloid source (TMZ) I could find that reported that "Law enforcement sources tell us (SAID) the paramedics SAID (he) IT looked like a frail old man."
I'm para phrasing. I had used that article in one of my posts as an example of where that info came from. It was in regards to another article I used about the paramedics reasons why they drove the way they did and they stated that they knew it was MJ.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... spita.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/01/michael-jackson-hearing-paparazzi-fans-hampered-paramedics-from-getting-stricken-pop-star-to-hospita.html)
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317206#p317206 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317206#p317206)

So in using the TMZ article to show that the paramedics did realize IT was MJ after 10 mins, I also realized that the descriptor TMZ chose to use was IT. I again used TMZ’s article at the start of this thread but added the understanding I got from TMZ’s use of the word IT.  8-)

This whole time probably 99% of the fire starting and telephone game playing info has came from TMZ. I was actually lol as I googled Michael Jackson paramedics said he looked like a frail old man. I am only posting the first 4 I checked.

TMZ "Telephone game starter"…Next article took their words but didn’t credit them for the source. They added their own assumptions to the story and embellished it alot. Beware it is from the Sun so yes they say Jacko. Next article started out saying the same thing as TMZ but again with a twist to it in their own style. This is how the game of telephone works. 4th article is just a copy and paste from the 3rd one down. Neither of these credited TMZ.

This is how this became accepted truth and circulated on the web and the forum as truth. This is how half truths/lies are repeated so many times, with the next person adding to the story, that by the time it has been said enough "The lie becomes the truth". Is this really what the paramedics said? Or is this what TMZ said because MJ asked them to print that and "Let’s get this party started"? lol  8-)

Question everything. Research it no matter who it comes from. Filter it through your mind. Some things you will know in your gut is truth. Other things if they sound ridiculas most likely they are. :ugeek:

Peace

http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedic ... e-arrived/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/)
Quote
Paramedics: Jackson Dead When We Arrived
7/26/2009 9:30 PM PDT by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell us when paramedics arrived at Michael Jackson's house he was already dead ... and it took them a while to even realize the victim was the famous singer.

Our sources say when paramedics got to Jackson's home he was flatlined. There was no electrical activity in his heart and Jackson showed no sign of life.

Multiple sources say paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the scene but Dr. Conrad Murray insisted that the singer be transported to the hospital. Dr. Murray -- as a higher medical authority than the EMTs -- had the power to overrule them.

Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man."
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... d-man.html (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2556079/Medics-mistook-flatlined-Michael-Jackson-for-an-old-man.html)
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/peopl ... el_Jackson (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article_1492071.php/Frail_Michael_Jackson)
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/en ... il-old-man (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/entertainment/2682696/Michael-Jackson-a-frail-old-man)[/b]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 20, 2011, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4746/fbii.jpg)

It’s now time for the third level!   :D  8-)  :)

The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital.  And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA?  MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?

Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better; #2 once you have a theory, try to debunk your own theory; #3 we are looking for a theory that has at least two different strong points, which nobody can debunk.

Let’s also review what has been established so far.  Nobody has debunked the main point established in the first level: “… the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ’s face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185}.  As always, if you want to try and debunk something, please inform yourself first of what has already been discussed; I will usually ignore questions or objections which are just a repeat, and have already been answered.

In the second level, there have been a few strong points in support of FBI involvement; and nobody has debunked any of these strong points {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461}.

First and foremost, as in other areas of the hoax, the numerology speaks volumes; Andrea recently had an excellent post on FBI numerology, as well as some Joe/Joseph information {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514}.  

The Elvis connection is another strong point in support of MJ having FBI help, and explains a lot on how this hoax could be pulled off successfully with LAFD and other government entities involved {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314370&#p314370; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313872&#p313872; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313381&#p313381}.


Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial!  “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year.  Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” {http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams}.

Last and maybe least—but still a big clue, is Marlon wearing the FBI cap on more than one occasion
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1000#p320865; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6456&start=0#p103786}.

In spite of the fact that nobody has debunked any of the above points, there have been a couple of general questions or objections to FBI involvement—including but not limited to who oversees the FBI {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1050#p321369}.  And there were several good replies
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321814; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321843; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321890; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321894; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1100#p322044}.

There were also questions about why, if the FBI is involved, would there be any numerology and other clues—wouldn’t the FBI do the fake death so well, that nobody would know a thing?  This is a very good question; but there are good answers.  First of all, we know that Elvis had government help; and we also know that he used numerology and other clues.

But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment.  “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment}.

If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment.  However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.

The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.  Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.  

On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.

 :lol:  :lol:  :shock:

TS says "nobody" several times, 9 times if you count the "no bodies" from the FBI snippet on fake deaths... "Nobody"...no body... Could have said "no one" or another variation.  I do think TS wants the dead body theory de-bunked, at least that's the impression I get.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 20, 2011, 10:43:54 PM
@Andrea:  :shock:

 :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 20, 2011, 10:45:55 PM
Quote from: "bec"
@Andrea:  :shock:

 :lol:

Ya, that was my reaction.  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 20, 2011, 11:53:33 PM
Quote from: bec
Quote from: ~Souza~
California has his own assisted suicide protocol. It differs from the Washington one but it's allowed there. Also, Murray was not in the room, he fell asleep, went to the bathroom and got on the phone all at once, only to return and find 'MJ' not breathing.

I am going to mail Cali about this issue, to see what they say.

No they don't, they only have a law to allow the removal of a feeding tube. That's a completely different situation. Euthanasia, which is what the suicide pills are, is not legal in California and it is considered suicide.

But I am curious what Cali replies with.

Caliland (Mr. Schwarzenegger) did approve a nurse-assisted suicide bill which is not too far from euthanasia. Drug the depressed, then starve / dehydrate them to death.
Take involuntary detention and involuntary treatment in a neuro-psychiatric clinic first and connect the dots.

Quote
Involuntary commitment is the practice of placing a person to a psychiatric hospital or ward against his or her will, in compliance with mental health laws of the country.
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment)


Quote
California approves nurse-assisted suicide
Schwarzenegger signs bill authorizing dehydration, starvation of patients
Posted: October 02, 2008
12:30 am Eastern

© 2011 WorldNetDaily


California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger

SACRAMENTO – California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has officially approved an assisted suicide measure allowing nurses to sedate, dehydrate and starve depressed or confused individuals they consider to be "terminally ill."

The bill, sponsored by Assemblywoman Patty Berg, a Democrat, passed the California Assembly Aug. 28, and the state Senate Aug. 20. It was signed by the governor yesterday.

The legislation, called the "Terminal Patients' Right to Know End of Life Options Act," or AB 2747, passed by a 42 to 34 vote. An Aug. 20 Senate vote of 21 to 17 ushered the measure to the governor's desk for signing.

Randy Thomasson, chief of the Campaign for Children and Families, said the legislation is dangerous and should have been vetoed by Gov. Schwarzenegger.

"AB 2747 pushes suicide through the back door at the hands of non-physicians taking advantage of depressed patients," he said in a statement. "AB 2747 cheapens the value of human life by endorsing suicide as an option."

The measure allows physician assistants and nurses to decide whether a person is "terminally ill" and deprive them of basic life-sustaining necessities such as food and water.

"Depressed patients who succumb to this pressure will be drugged unconscious and die from dehydration, usually within five to 10 days," Thomasson said. "Nothing in the bill prohibits this horror."

Thomasson said Berg "deceptively changed" the bill to appear that "voluntarily stopping of eating and drinking" and "palliative sedation" no longer were on a list of "symptom management" options.

(Story continues below)

           

"But the final bill "is broad enough to easily include these suicide techniques," he said.

According to the CCF, Assemblyman Van Tran of Costa Mesa warned the bill has no protections for patients "who could be mistakenly diagnosed as 'terminally ill' but would have many, many full years of life ahead."

"The bill does not otherwise attempt to expressly define terminal illness that each of these health care professionals would have to diagnose to trigger the offer of counseling end of life option," Tran said. "It is not clear why nurse practitioners and physician assistants could make such a significant diagnosis. It is further not clear from the bill how making such significant diagnoses on a case-by-case basis can be done by such practitioners and assistants based on so-called 'standardized procedures and protocols' not further defined by the bill. The potential effect of AB 2747 is extremely broad and could cause irrevocable harm."

As WND reported, state Sen. Sam Aanestad, R-Grass Valley, urged Schwarzenegger to veto the bill as well.

He said the legislation was sponsored by a group called Compassion and Choices, which formerly was known as the Hemlock Society and has advocated for physician-assisted suicide legislation in the past. A founder of the group has praised Dr. Jack Kevorkian for helping more than 100 people die.

Dozens of individuals and groups representing cancer patients, minority rights groups, members of religious communities and hospitals spoke before the Senate Health Committee in opposition to the idea. Also, numerous hospitals and other organizations opposed the measure, includeing California Disability Alliance, California Family Council, California Nurses for Ethical Standards, Mercy San Juan Medical Center, Sierra Nevada Memorial Hospital and St. Mary's Medical Center in San Francisco.

Read more: California approves nurse-assisted suicide
http://http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=76713#ixzz1K83jWxpH (http://http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=76713#ixzz1K83jWxpH)

I am still convinced that the "old frail sick man" was a tactical smoke screen to irritate (and mock at the same time) Michael's foes' perception of him.
Remember 'Breaking News' lyrics "thought he was done", who gave us this description and how deep the first statements and news were burned into our minds in the first days of trauma,  mourning and doubt. Looking at this description from afar, makes it not more or less precise than anything else TMZ are currently diffusing.
Not everything that does not fit into our image of Michael must be true or a clue.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 21, 2011, 12:31:11 AM
This talk of involuntary commitment makes me nervous. ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 21, 2011, 12:34:41 AM
souza, where did you find that video of Ben talking about that day ???

At the .51 second mark he says "we looked inside the ambulance and saw the screen that said 50yo male not breathing".

Well Ben, its not an ambulance....its a firetruck...!!!

And, if all his crew were around the ambulance taking video and still photos, then who took this picture,....


And who ordered all the staff to leave the mansion ???

The staff would be witnesses and had to interviewed by police....regardless.  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 21, 2011, 02:46:18 AM
Quote
TS
Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial! “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year.
It hardly seems likely to me that an insider in the FBI would post this on this connected day and the same tombstones as in TII graveyard scene, with serious intentions. Somehow I think they are being hired in a grand entertainment scheme. Whether it's TPTB or evil or for good clean fun IDK. Whether MJ's in charge of it at the top IDK, but maybe Hollywood/Entertainment world/elite wanted to collectively put some massive injection into the scene that would wow the world, and I'm not talking about EarthEnigma's theory. Will I Am said the music industry needed a jolt that could only be put back in by the one that gave it the biggest jolt ever, Michael Jackson. Like a creme-de-la-creme extravaganza show! As MJ would call it - The Greatest Show on Earth Finale! The spin-off financial benefit would effect everyone. I don't think this is a sting operation by the FBI, this time, although they might want it to appear that way, to parallel Elvis' involvement. JMO

Andrea, you rock!  What are the chances of coincidence for “No body” mentioned 9x by TS? TS is one sneaky charmer who reminds me of another charmer we all know! :lol:  8-)

I'm just running through the scenario again in my mind. So the whole bedroom death scene is MJ telling a story only, through Murray, TMZ and others, and Michael never really lived there anyway--it was just a prop house. We see MJ’s bent over figure in a blue shirt and pony-tail in the space in the fence directing things, telling the 2 or 3 “employees” to exit on cue (supposedly TT told them to leave, but why--makes no sense).  There was no body in the ambulance going to UCLA, no need. The sitting up figure (MJ) was shot the other day as well as the ambulance MJ pic. MJ may have followed the ambulance with no body in one of the SUV’s probably disguised or went straight to the airport as Jermaine said.  The helicopter scene with MJ’s body moving could also have been shot the other day and inserted with 25th footage. Finally the coroner’s van scene with MJ jumping out was the final cut on the other day. So the 25th was the presentation of the illusion of a dead body but with none. So now I’m on your page Bec! It all seems to fit to me now, and makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 21, 2011, 02:58:24 AM
You can almost see the no body on the stretcher....just a white sheet or something.

Unless this was the white sheet they used to protect him from the media...????

In the ambulance, MJ doesn't have a white sheet on........
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 21, 2011, 03:13:04 AM
Quote
Oh yes of course, I forgot about that video. Gonna watch now.

Back to the ambulance picture (off topic but weird) Ben says Chris took 3 pictures at 1:44:

did you notice the colours of his background????? :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  The same colours as the MJDHI forum.. :o
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 21, 2011, 03:48:37 AM
Sorry for hogging this post, but I just found another abnormality with the pictures..

The real ambulance, has a printed 71 on the back, but the one at carolwood dve, seems to have a fold on the "1", like it is a sticker.

Also, the firetruck doesnt match either...  The "paramedic" sign, is in the wrong place...



And, then we have this site.......HORTON Ambulance and emergency vehicles for sale..pre-owned delivered immediately.

http://www.hortonambulance.com/ImmediateDelivery.php (http://www.hortonambulance.com/ImmediateDelivery.php)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 21, 2011, 03:49:36 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
You can almost see the no body on the stretcher....just a white sheet or something.


But Michael was very thin in TII, very very thin :(
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 21, 2011, 03:54:51 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
You can almost see the no body on the stretcher....just a white sheet or something.


But Michael was very thin in TII, very very thin :(

Gianfelicia, do you speak romanian????  There is a site I've come across, and it doesn't make that much sense when I use autotranslate....this is the site:  


http://sites.google.com/site/whereismic (http://sites.google.com/site/whereismic) ... /ambulanta
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 21, 2011, 04:19:13 AM
Of course I speak romanian but that link doesn't work for me.
Is it this one?
http://sites.google.com/site/whereismic ... /ambulanta (http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/ambulanta)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 21, 2011, 05:53:11 AM
TS is going to post today.... :? ?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 21, 2011, 06:45:31 AM
2good2btrue, I speak Romanian. If I can help you with anything, just say. I know about the site.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 21, 2011, 07:00:49 AM
Anna and Gianafelicia, thanks and yes it was about this Romanian site I came across, but obviously you both have read it...it just seemed to have some interesting ideas and clues, like the ambulances not matching....
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 21, 2011, 07:37:20 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Anna and Gianafelicia, thanks and yes it was about this Romanian site I came across, but obviously you both have read it...it just seemed to have some interesting ideas and clues, like the ambulances not matching....
A group of people from here went to LA and went to see the ambulances and firetrucks. They saw the ambulance 71 and even took photos of it. I think they are on the site.

You can see here

http://sites.google.com/site/whereismic ... atie-in-LA (http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/Investigatie-in-LA)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 21, 2011, 08:25:16 AM
Hello :D

Souza i think that TMZ's "Mr.X" can be a clue to your theory with a sick patient who self performed suicide. If the fingerprints don't match with MJ's, CM's or any other family member or house staff then it could be fingerprints of this patient who's body was used in hoax.

To me the "no body" theory sounds more plausible, but i'm just trying to connect all the dots here  :D

L.O.V.E to all!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 21, 2011, 08:49:08 AM
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
Hello :D

Souza i think that TMZ's "Mr.X" can be a clue to your theory with a sick patient who self performed suicide. If the fingerprints don't match with MJ's, CM's or any other family member or house staff then it could be fingerprints of this patient who's body was used in hoax.

To me the "no body" theory sounds more plausible, but i'm just trying to connect all the dots here  :D

L.O.V.E to all!

My problem is that all theories are still plausible. One a little more than the other, but I can't rule any of them out yet.

Maybe there is no body so that they can't be accused of entrapment. But who could have figured out that there was no body, other than theoretically? I don't know if we have enough info to really determine if there was a body/dummy/double/MJ or no body at all. So all we can do is see if the various theories would make sense or are possible. What I do know is that my brain is the size of a peanut now and TS needs to plant some more seeds to let it grow back :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 21, 2011, 08:54:23 AM
It's hard to figure out if there is a real body or not...we still have to figure out if the paramedics are in the hoax or not to know if there was a real body or not...I guess once we figure that out we can establish if there was a real body or not.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 21, 2011, 09:30:12 AM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Anna and Gianafelicia, thanks and yes it was about this Romanian site I came across, but obviously you both have read it...it just seemed to have some interesting ideas and clues, like the ambulances not matching....
A group of people from here went to LA and went to see the ambulances and firetrucks. They saw the ambulance 71 and even took photos of it. I think they are on the site.

You can see here

http://sites.google.com/site/whereismic ... atie-in-LA (http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/Investigatie-in-LA)

Very interesting. They say you can';t see anything in side the ambulance through that  window. They say it's no way someone could have taken such a clear photo as the ambulance photo.
They tried in two different days to take photos and no succes.

Another interesting thing - they say the woman who was selling maps near Carlwood residence said Ambulance 71hd daily rides on Carlwood drive with no emergency for about 2 months before June 25th :?
hmmmm... intersting they say that because they were too much around Carlwood thier car started to be followed not only to Carlwood but also at Neverland and Forest Lawn.

They had the impression they were followed by people from a guvernmental institution, not simple bodyguards.
They also say AEG made contracts for life to the dancers  :? .
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 21, 2011, 09:43:33 AM
They are convinced of the involvement of military and guvernmental institutions in the hoax.
Their investigation at the place seems quite interesting.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 21, 2011, 10:34:06 AM
Quote
TS
Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets”

Perhaps that is the answer :?:  :roll:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 21, 2011, 11:56:25 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Anna and Gianafelicia, thanks and yes it was about this Romanian site I came across, but obviously you both have read it...it just seemed to have some interesting ideas and clues, like the ambulances not matching....
A group of people from here went to LA and went to see the ambulances and firetrucks. They saw the ambulance 71 and even took photos of it. I think they are on the site.

You can see here

http://sites.google.com/site/whereismic ... atie-in-LA (http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/Investigatie-in-LA)

Very interesting. They say you can';t see anything in side the ambulance through that  window. They say it's no way someone could have taken such a clear photo as the ambulance photo.
They tried in two different days to take photos and no succes.

Another interesting thing - they say the woman who was selling maps near Carlwood residence said Ambulance 71hd daily rides on Carlwood drive with no emergency for about 2 months before June 25th :?
hmmmm... intersting they say that because they were too much around Carlwood thier car started to be followed not only to Carlwood but also at Neverland and Forest Lawn.

They had the impression they were followed by people from a guvernmental institution, not simple bodyguards.
They also say AEG made contracts for life to the dancers  :? .

Wow Gina thank you so much for this info! :)
For now i have to say only this  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :?  :?  :o  :shock:  :mrgreen:  :|

L.O.V.E
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 21, 2011, 12:48:51 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
You can almost see the no body on the stretcher....just a white sheet or something.


But Michael was very thin in TII, very very thin :(


he was always thin. I do not see any difference. Don't forget there were impersonators too.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 21, 2011, 03:13:20 PM
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... able+Doubt (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+Doubt)
Partial quote:
Quote
A standard of proof that must be surpassed to convict an accused in a criminal proceeding.

Reasonable doubt is a standard of proof used in criminal trials. When a criminal defendant is prosecuted, the prosecutor must prove the defendant's guilt Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. If the jury—or the judge in a bench trial—has a reasonable doubt as to the defendant's guilt, the jury or judge should pronounce the defendant not guilty. Conversely, if the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.

Reasonable doubt is the highest standard of proof used in court. In civil litigation the standard of proof is either proof by a preponderance of the evidence or proof by clear and convincing evidence. These are lower burdens of proof. A preponderance of the evidence simply means that one side has more evidence in its favor than the other, even by the smallest degree. Clear and convincing evidence is evidence that establishes a high probability that the fact sought to be proved is true.

The main reason that the high proof standard of reasonable doubt is used in criminal trials is that criminal trials can result in the deprivation of a defendant's liberty or in the defendant's death, outcomes far more severe than occur in civil trials where money damages are the common remedy.

Reasonable doubt is required in criminal proceedings under the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... able+Doubt (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Beyond+a+Reasonable+Doubt)
Quote
The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution: that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

If the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.

The term connotes that evidence establishes a particular point to a moral certainty and that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible. It does not mean that no doubt exists as to the accused's guilt, but only that no Reasonable Doubt is possible from the evidence presented.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is the highest standard of proof that must be met in any trial. In civil litigation, the standard of proof is either proof by a preponderance of the evidence or proof by clear and convincing evidence. These are lower burdens of proof. A preponderance of the evidence simply means that one side has more evidence in its favor than the other, even by the smallest degree. Clear and Convincing Proof is evidence that establishes a high probability that the fact sought to be proved is true.

The main reason that the high proof standard of reasonable doubt is used in criminal trials is that such proceedings can result in the deprivation of a defendant's liberty or even in his or her death. These outcomes are far more severe than in civil trials, in which money damages are the common remedy.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... cing+Proof (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Clear+and+Convincing+Proof)
Quote
A standard applied by a jury or by a judge in a nonjury trial to measure the probability of the truthfulness of particular facts alleged during a civil lawsuit.

Clear and convincing proof means that the evidence presented by a party during the trial is more highly probable to be true than not and the jury or judge has a firm belief or conviction in it. A greater degree of believability must be met than the common standard of proof in civil actions, preponderance of the evidence, which requires that the facts more likely than not prove the issue for which they are asserted.

The standard of clear and convincing proof—also known as "clear and convincing evidence"; "clear, convincing, and satisfactory"; "clear, cognizant, and convincing"; and "clear, unequivocal, satisfactory, and convincing"—is applied only in particular cases, primarily those involving an equitable remedy, such as reformation of a deed or contract for mistake.

This is a planted story to News of The World. When I say planted I am referring to the hoax as a whole. The events started because of a planted story, MJ died. This doesn’t mean that there isn’t an actual planted broken syringe that was taken from the room. The story of the death of MJ took on a life in the media the moment TMZ announced he died.  8-)

My interpretation: This story is saying that Murray’s lawyer says… The syringe with Mr. X’s prints and not Murray’s gives a reasonable doubt in the judge and jury's minds that someone else did the murder. The syringe is a fabricated piece of evidence based on the fact that we know MJ is not dead. This evidence was planted in the room so it could be used in the defense of Murray. Below is enlarged text that is important.  8-)

The story is also saying a source close to the case…This doesn’t mean that this source actually said anything. In fact the writer of this story could be using that as an excuse of where the info came from but in reality some of it is made up by the writer based on their interpretation of what they read in other articles. If you read some of the stuff that is wrote below you can see that some of it is a straight up lie. See text in red. That is not how the prints were done on the syringe. The LAPD already printed the syringe from the start and had them on file at the FBI.

Remember the story about Murray’s lawyer requesting a first generation print from the FBI regarding the print on the syringe? This was a defense strategy to start the process of planting reasonable doubt.  ;)

http://www.tmz.com/2011/03/15/dr-conrad ... -propofol/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/03/15/dr-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-manslaughter-case-trial-propofol-court-hearing-syringe-propofol/)
http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2011/ ... -cites-br/ (http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2011/03/dr-conrad-murray-implies-michael-jackson-killed-himself-cites-br/)
http://www.californiacriminaldefenseblo ... _to_p.html (http://www.californiacriminaldefenseblog.com/2011/03/dr_conrad_murray_attempts_to_p.html)  

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/notw/_n ... iller.html (http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/notw/_news/1273373/Dr-Murray-not-Jacksons-killer.html)
(http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00247/jacko_619_247661a.jpg)
Death scene... syringe and Jacko's bedroom
Quote
Exclusive by James Desborough, US Editor
April 17, 2011
Jacko killed by 'Mr X' not doc
Mystery fingerprints found on death syringe Accused's lawyer says he can't be convicted
 
THE fingerprints on the syringe that killed Michael Jackson are NOT his doctor's, we can reveal.

The bombshell new evidence means Dr Conrad Murray could walk free from his trial for involuntary manslaughter, which starts in just three weeks.
(http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00246/jacko_300_246935a.jpg)
Jacko... on stage HO/AFP/Getty Images

And it supports his theory that a "Mr X" injected Jacko with a lethal dose of Propofol - before stealing more than a million dollars of his cash and fleeing.

Police will not be able to disprove Murray easily because in another twist they have LOST 24 hours of CCTV footage from Jacko's mansion that would have shown exactly who was inside when he died.

A source close to the case told the News of the World: The mystery fingerprints are the biggest breakthrough for Murray so far. If it is handled right it would mean a jury cannot convict him.

Murray and Michael were the only ones supposedly at the house at the time. And all the syringes were vacuum-packed and sterile before use.

"The fingerprints point to someone else being there and using the fatal syringe." Murray's lawyer Ed Chernoff has now adopted the catchphrase: "If the print doesn't fit, you must acquit."

It comes from OJ Simpson's lawyer Johnnie Cochran - who said, "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit" about a glove OJ was supposedly wearing when he allegedly murdered his wife. The jury found him not guilty.

The fingerprints on Jacko's syringe do not belong to any of his family or staff - and no one knows whose they are. "I never wanted him to die - he was my friend."

They were found by Murray's legal team after they asked the Los Angeles Police Department for the coroners' "evidence box". Inside it were several syringes from Jacko's bedroom - including the one doctors said killed him - plus pills, drips, oxygen tanks and his clothes.

Murray's lawyers had them dusted for prints. Jackson, 50, overdosed on the powerful sedative Propofol in June 2009. Cardiologist Murray, who was paid £90,000 a month by the singer to be his personal doctor, is accused of negligently administering the drug.

He denies the charge, and faces up to four years in jail if found guilty. His lawyers will argue someone else gave Jacko the drug through a drip into his leg. They believe the mystery killer is the same person who swiped huge wads of cash lying around the mansion Jackson was renting in LA.
(http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00246/jacko_2_300_246938a.jpg)
Murray... May trial AP/Jason Redmond
 
The "Mr X" defence ties into our exclusive story on how the Jackson family frantically called staff to try to find a massive sum of missing money in the hours after Jacko died. His children Paris, 12, and Prince, 13, sister LaToya and mum Katherine are all expected to testify at the trial that Jacko had bundles of $100 notes which vanished.

Our source said: "The missing CCTV tape also helps the theory.
"Bodyguards say they handed over 24 hours-worth of footage from the day, which showed everyone who came and went. "Chernoff's been told it is no longer available. Somehow only a few minutes of the footage is left."

The twists could mean Murray, 56, may not even have to speak at the trial. He doesn't want to take the stand - and his team plan to submit a statement saying: "I didn't do it, and I don't know how it happened. I am deeply sorry for Michael's death. I never wanted him to die - he was my friend." His lawyers will also point out he would be mad to kill his employer, who paid him more than a million dollars a year.

But even if Murray is cleared of manslaughter, he will face a battle to clear his name.

Last week court papers showed he was making flirty texts and calls to three women while Jacko lay dying. And we previously revealed he failed to administer proper CPR, refused to tell doctors about injecting Propofol and hid details of Jacko's pill use.

Jury selection starts this week and the prosecution's opening statements begin on May 9. Yesterday the LA District Attorney's office and Murray's spokesman refused to comment. But a Jackson family spokesman said: "They are concerned about all the matters around the death. They are unsure Conrad Murray will ever go to prison."
[/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson_murder_case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson_murder_case)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simp ... case#Glove (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson_murder_case#Glove)
Quote
Cochran repeated a quip he had used several times in relation to other points in his closing arguments, "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit."
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Elsa on April 21, 2011, 03:24:33 PM
Okay I have a question about the involvement of the paramedics.  I agree with others that Dr Cooper must be part of the hoax because she called the time of death at 2:26 - which fits with the numbers.   She said at the prelim that she authorised the paramedics to call it earlier.  If the paramedics are not in on the hoax how did she know that it was safe to tell them to call the death and they wouldn’t do it?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 21, 2011, 03:45:25 PM
Quote from: "Elsa"
Okay I have a question about the involvement of the paramedics.  I agree with others that Dr Cooper must be part of the hoax because she called the time of death at 2:26 - which fits with the numbers.   She said at the prelim that she authorised the paramedics to call it earlier.  If the paramedics are not in on the hoax how did she know that it was safe to tell them to call the death and they wouldn’t do it?
Very good point Elsa.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: hesouttamylife on April 21, 2011, 04:02:15 PM
My question is how and when did a Mr. X gain entry without anyone knowing or seeing him/her?  If that is the case then something with security is very wrong.  I’m surprised they haven’t made any statement about this because it makes them look bad.

Also with all these entrances and exits, were they patroled 24-7 as with the front gates?  If not, then this is where the trip up might be.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjj4ever777 on April 21, 2011, 04:53:38 PM
Great post Imconvinced!
I have a couple of questions that have been bothering me for a while.
First, how do they KNOW that this particular syringe, is the one that "killed" Michael? We know Murray says he administered many other drugs "IM"  inter muscular, so there had to be other syringes in the room, so how do they know that this is the one that :killed him? Did they check all the syringes for fingerprints, or just this one?

Also, how do you "break" a plastic syringe?
and how could they have missed finding this one particular needle under the bed on their initial investigation of the room?

I don't buy any of this crap, not for one minute :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Tmz got the ball rolling on June 25th 2009, and then everyone and their brother in "journalism" took that ball and ran with it, and look at the mess they have created out of it!! The sad thing is that so many people are buying into all this BS...not me though, this really is the Greatest Show on Earth and in the end, when the truth  finally prevails, all hell is gonna break loose, but hopefully the world will understand just how easily they have been controlled, by believing everything they are fed, and that they will finally take a stand and take back control of their own lives and "investigate" before believing anything they read or see on TV, It is time to "think for ourselves" and say goodbye to tabloid bullshit "journalism".
Anyway, this is just my opinion. This is a lesson that the world can learn from and finally we can evolve and be  independent thinkers instead of just puppets on a string!

Sending you all Love and Blessings...It's all for L.O.V.E, never forget that!! :) <3
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 21, 2011, 05:03:07 PM
Quote from: "hesouttamylife"
My question is how and when did a Mr. X gain entry without anyone knowing or seeing him/her?  If that is the case then something with security is very wrong.  I’m surprised they haven’t made any statement about this because it makes them look bad.

Also with all these entrances and exits, were they patroled 24-7 as with the front gates?  If not, then this is where the trip up might be.
How well hidden would MJ have put the cash, and if it's an outsider why was the place not dishevelled in the process of looking for it.
Wasn't there a thread a while back about using a cadaver's fingerprints, whether or not it would work?
(Maybe it's the ghost that Jermaine mentioned that nightly walked at the Encino compound and stood by his bed. That was one scary video! :lol: )
At least now we know Murray won't go to jail, because the reasonable doubt. 8-)

Quote
Ginafelicia
Another interesting thing - they say the woman who was selling maps near Carlwood residence said Ambulance 71hd daily rides on Carlwood drive with no emergency for about 2 months before June 25th  
hmmmm... intersting they say that because they were too much around Carlwood thier car started to be followed not only to Carlwood but also at Neverland and Forest Lawn.

They had the impression they were followed by people from a guvernmental institution, not simple bodyguards.
They also say AEG made contracts for life to the dancers .
What on earth would be the purpose in a daily drive-by? If they were checking for fans and timing of tourist buses why not just send a car not a noticable ambulance? I guess they wanted to make sure the fans didn't see too much or see how often they came. Scorpionchik also said it went by when she was there. Could it be a training route for new drivers?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Amnesiac1 on April 21, 2011, 05:57:15 PM
I'd like to know how they found anything under that bed. Looking at the picture of the room the box spring is laying on the floor,that would mean there is no under the bed.  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 21, 2011, 06:18:18 PM
Quote from: "Amnesiac1"
I'd like to know how they found anything under that bed. Looking at the picture of the room the box spring is laying on the floor,that would mean there is no under the bed.  :D
OMG!!!!  Yes you are right!!  The pics (if real) had the bed on the floor with at ratty headboard, because it was suppose to be Murray's bedroom.  (other pics were released of Michael's bedroom and how elaborate it was)
I remember at the time I saw it, thinking about your very comment, and somehow just misplaced it in my head.
Thanks for the great refresh.  You need to put this on the CLUE list :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GodhaschosenMJ on April 21, 2011, 07:07:42 PM
Hello everyone! Long time no post!! I have been busy with family and things. So for about the first 10 days of April I have not been on the computer much. I got really behind in reading the posts. Just now I finished this thread which I started about three days ago! My head is spinning, it hurts to think and read anymore!! And I still have other threads to catch up on!

I really like what Souza and I'm Convinced have posted on this thread. I have leaned towards the theory of a corpse/cadaver being used for at least part of the hoax. After everyones post tho I can't say it is very solid! Looking forward to what and when ever TS has more info!!  :P
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 21, 2011, 07:48:02 PM
This article below was written back in December 2010. So the idea and process of someone else killed Michael was already a theory in progress. This is a stage in the process of adding to the defense side of reasonable doubt. I find it interesting that this writer says that the second syringe (the one found on the floor) had an unidentified fingerprint on it.

When did we find out about the fingerprint in question? When did we find out about the defense requesting that the FBI turn over the first generation print from that syringe?

This seems odd to me that the defense would have to request the prints from FBI to actually have it tested to Murray’s prints at that stage of the game. It is not odd that the defense would ask for the FBI prints to use in their defense theory. But the odd part is IF FBI is involved with handling the prints shouldn’t they have already tried to match Murray’s prints or eliminate him from the owner of the prints when they first got it?

That is why the FBI usually helps the police with prints because they have better technology available and access to every known print on file in existence. Unless the FBI did match Murray’s prints to the syringe from the IV it was connected to but the other didn’t and in that case one match was good enough to take him to trial….hmmm

http://www.parcbench.com/2010/12/30/did ... l-himself/ (http://www.parcbench.com/2010/12/30/did-michael-jackson-kill-himself/)

(http://www.parcbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Conrad1-300x236.jpg)
Quote
Written by Greg Victor in Celebrities, ParcLIVE!

Get a good look at this guy’s face (to the left) – celebrity trials being what they are in America, you’re probably going to be seeing and hearing a lot more of him. His name is Dr. Conrad Murray and he is facing an involuntary manslaughter charge in the death of pop legend Michael Jackson.

One of his attorneys indicated that the defense will focus on a second syringe found at the singer’s bedside. Like I said – prepare yourself for yet another long-term media circus that won’t let the King of Pop’s memory rest. Murray’s attorney, J. Michael Flanagan, told the judge the syringe might have been used by someone other than the doctor to administer the anesthetic that caused Jackson’s death on June 25, 2009.

The hearing this Wednesday was over a defense request for a court order that would allow the county coroner’s office to test the quantity of the drugs in two syringes and an IV bag found in Jackson’s room. One syringe was connected to the IV and used by Murray to administer drugs. The other was found on the floor, broken, with an unidentified fingerprint.

Murray’s attorney asked L. A. County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor, “Who injected the propofol? That’s the issue in this case.” It’s not unlike the police finding two guns at a crime scene and figuring out which of the guns did it.

In early statements to police, Murray said he gave the singer 25 milligrams — half the regular dose. Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren said the defense might be preparing up to argue that the second syringe was used by the singer to administer the propofol to himself.

A preliminary hearing to determine whether there is enough evidence for Murray’s trial to go forward is scheduled to begin Tuesday.

In other Michael Jackson news…
(http://www.parcbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/MJ4-239x300.jpg)
Quote
Executors of the Michael Jackson estate demanded that the European version of the Discovery Channel cancel their plans for a show re-enacting the dead superstar’s autopsy.

They called the planned show “in shockingly bad taste” and they accused the company of being motivated by “blind desire to exploit Michael’s death, while cynically attempting to dupe the public into believing this show will have serious medical value.” They were outraged by an Internet ad now circulating for the show, “Michael Jackson’s Autopsy,” saying it depicts a corpse on a steel gurney covered by a sheet with a hand sticking out wearing Michael’s signature sequined glove.

While it’s not uncommon for simulated autopsies to be performed for educational purposes on synthetic cadavers, those synthetic cadavers are never identified as representing a specific person.

Let’s hope the Discovery Channel axes the show. As for the programming genius who planned this show, and the advertising genius who came up with this poster, let’s hope heads will roll. And no autopsy.
(http://www.parcbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/MJ1.jpg)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... ringe.html (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3475813/Michael-Jacksons-fingerprints-found-on-deadly-syringe.html)
Quote
By PETE SAMSON, US Editor
Published: 18 Mar 2011
FINGERPRINTS on a broken syringe found under Michael Jackson's bed could be used by his doctor Conrad Murray to prove the star killed himself.

I found this article below that I never read before while searching for articles on the syringe. It is interesting the words Ian used back in June 2009. I know not everything is truth written. I know this man has a bad rep but look beyond that and see where the descriptions said about Michael may have originated from when all other stories came out later. One thing I do know when it comes to playing off of something already written; use it to your advantage. Use the shark’s weapon of choice to attack back. Ian has already given his weak spot years ago and his behavior is predictable. All MJ had to do was give him bait.

 Some things like MJ dressing a certain way to give people certain impressions to write these types of things is exactly what IMO MJ did. That was his subliminal clues to start these rumors. After the sharks took the bait and published their interpretation and tabloidesh stories, MJ then again used that to his advantage and fueled the fires with more tabloid stories to keep the rumor going. That is what improv is about. lol 8-)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-ago.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196009/Im-better-dead-Im-How-Michael-Jackson-predicted-death-months-ago.html)[/b]

I need to learn how to spell better. :ugeek:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 21, 2011, 08:45:37 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4746/fbii.jpg)

It’s now time for the third level!   :D  8-)  :)

The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital.  And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA?  MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?

Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better; #2 once you have a theory, try to debunk your own theory; #3 we are looking for a theory that has at least two different strong points, which nobody can debunk.

Let’s also review what has been established so far.  Nobody has debunked the main point established in the first level: “… the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ’s face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185}.  As always, if you want to try and debunk something, please inform yourself first of what has already been discussed; I will usually ignore questions or objections which are just a repeat, and have already been answered.

In the second level, there have been a few strong points in support of FBI involvement; and nobody has debunked any of these strong points {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461}.

First and foremost, as in other areas of the hoax, the numerology speaks volumes; Andrea recently had an excellent post on FBI numerology, as well as some Joe/Joseph information {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514}.  

The Elvis connection is another strong point in support of MJ having FBI help, and explains a lot on how this hoax could be pulled off successfully with LAFD and other government entities involved {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=314370&#p314370; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313872&#p313872; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313381&#p313381}.


Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial!  “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year.  Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” {http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams}.

Last and maybe least—but still a big clue, is Marlon wearing the FBI cap on more than one occasion
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1000#p320865; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6456&start=0#p103786}.

In spite of the fact that nobody has debunked any of the above points, there have been a couple of general questions or objections to FBI involvement—including but not limited to who oversees the FBI {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1050#p321369}.  And there were several good replies
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321814; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321843; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321890; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1075#p321894; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=1100#p322044}.

There were also questions about why, if the FBI is involved, would there be any numerology and other clues—wouldn’t the FBI do the fake death so well, that nobody would know a thing?  This is a very good question; but there are good answers.  First of all, we know that Elvis had government help; and we also know that he used numerology and other clues.

But there is another answer, which should be very clear once you understand it; and it has to do with making sure that a sting operation does not qualify as entrapment.  “Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment}.

If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment.  However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment.  If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.

The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.  Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.  

On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.


Because it seems some people forgot what the topic is.

Refresh, regroup, refocus... carry on.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 21, 2011, 09:35:01 PM
I don't know who you are saying that about but for myself I already presented my theory of the corpse being used in the hoax. I also said I was done presenting my theory.  8-) I never said I was done helping others to form their theories whether it's for a corpse/a dummy or no body. Ok even MJ. lol

The process of elimination means sometimes you have to take into account every part of the story to figure out how some things were done. That also helps people to figure out a theory based on knowing all of the story and how it may be used or not used when coming up with strong points. Part of refining a theory is to examine parts people may have thought was a good strong point when they know how certain things got started such as Mr. X and the frail old man theory. Once they know this and realize that the source is a tabloid, they may reconsider not using that info as part of their theory.

I am at this point presenting material/answers to posts that were suggested as a point in theories. I also answered mjj4ever777's question about the syringes. I am trying to help people as much as I can to form their theories with my thinking skills. I am not expecting anyone to believe what I wrote but if I can help them to see things in a different light, they may take notice and form better theories based on different knowledge/interpretations opposite of their own of how things are seen. That is how a real debate process works. Everyone puts their input in to the pot, we shake it around and form theories. Our own thinking may change based on a different perspective.

Peace
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 22, 2011, 12:30:06 AM
Just noticed that today is 666 days after June 25th, can we expect something scary today? :shock:  8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yambo3003 on April 22, 2011, 12:47:43 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Just noticed that today is 666 days after June 25th, can we expect something scary today? :shock:  8-)

Hope not.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 22, 2011, 01:44:19 AM
It's good friday here and that's the day that Jesus was beaten to a pulp so that his visage was marred more than any man, whipped till there was no skin left on his back. then stripped naked and crucified with thieves on the outskirts of the city. 666....completeness of what sinful man is capable of. Now that's scarey.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 22, 2011, 01:50:15 AM
Quote from: "RK"
It's good friday here and that's the day that Jesus was beaten to a pulp so that his visage was marred more than any man, whipped till there was no skin left on his back. then stripped naked and crucified with thieves on the outskirts of the city. 666....completeness of what sinful man is capable of. Now that's scarey.

Oh of course, it's good Friday. Is it a coincidence that it is 666 days after June 25?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 22, 2011, 02:13:56 AM
Well my son's friend said kids were calling it Bad Thursday because it is the day before Good Friday. 666 :shock:

Is it a coincidence TMZ reported MJ will be viewed naked (blurred privates) and "dead", just the day before the Bible says Jesus was stripped naked (only Hollywood added the loincloth) and died an agonizing death.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 22, 2011, 03:32:51 AM
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Well my son's friend said kids were calling it Bad Thursday because it is the day before Good Friday. 666 :shock:

Is it a coincidence TMZ reported MJ will be viewed naked (blurred privates) and "dead", just the day before the Bible says Jesus was stripped naked (only Hollywood added the loincloth) and died an agonizing death.

Wow I never thought of this  :o . I think you make a very interesting point.

Oh, now let me wave HI to TMZ  :D  (I like those funny guys)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 22, 2011, 04:42:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMB5gfcVChg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMB5gfcVChg)
[youtube:2c4x8gq1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMB5gfcVChg[/youtube:2c4x8gq1]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 22, 2011, 05:32:42 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"

The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital.  And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA?  MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?

To be able to figure this out don't we need to figure out if the paramedics are in the hoax?...we were supposed to figure that out in the other thread but still haven't.
So did paramedics supposedly say MJ was still alive on the way to the hospital...like had a faint pulse?
So was it MJ himself who went to UCLA - Could be if the paramedics believed the patient had a faint pulse. This could still possibly mean paramedics were not involved.
MJ Double- if MJ needed that time on 25th to get out of the L.A then a body double could be used, especially how the paramedics said the patient looked like a frail old man. This could still possibly mean paramedics were not involved but the MJ double was.
Real Corpse- Possible, but I don't see the advantage of having a real corpse over having MJ or an MJ double. But this could still possibly mean paramedics were not involved.
Dummy- I would only see this as an option if the paramedics were involved...if MJ had to get out of L.A or go into hiding or whatever on June 25th fast, then this could be an option, but MJ might as well of used a MJ double, it also is a bit risky. This would mean paramedics were involved.
Nothing- Least likely and very risky. Would mean paramedics were involved and possibly a lot more involved compared to using a double or dummy.


Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better; #2 once you have a theory, try to debunk your own theory; #3 we are looking for a theory that has at least two different strong points, which nobody can debunk.

Best choice is using MJ in the ambulance, less people involved. Next would real corpse or body double, then dummy and lastly nothing.
I now believe MJ was the one in the ambulance, that is my theory but I don't have any evidence so I can't debunk it.

Let’s also review what has been established so far.  Nobody has debunked the main point established in the first level: “… the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ’s face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185}.  As always, if you want to try and debunk something, please inform yourself first of what has already been discussed; I will usually ignore questions or objections which are just a repeat, and have already been answered.

Why was MJ's face photo-shopped, was it because MJ was not in the ambulance?


The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk.  Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.

Possibly could be both involved or none, but I don't understand how only one paramedic can be involved

On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.

But if it was MJ or a double in the ambulance I don't understand why any of the paramedics would need to be in on it

Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on April 22, 2011, 12:11:27 PM
I feel that I cannot absolutely prove that there was no body except to say that the following clues or ideas lead me to that conclusion.  Unfortunately, without information that I believe is unavailable to us there is no absolute proof.

The initial question TS asked is what if anything went to the hospital.  I realize I am looking at a different question regarding the helicopter transport.  To answer that helps me consider the other.   The  helicopter transport is so very unusual in every way and the positioning of the body on the stretcher to the coroner's van does not seem real.  It appears too flat and the feet are strangely positioned and not typical of a body that could not have completed a rigor mortis process.  The body hoisted by the knot, which is at the head,
does not apear to be procedurally appropriate.  It is indelicate at best.  There is weight to the body but the manner in which it is hoisted, does not appear to be as heavy as it would be if a real body was there.  This is speculation in some respects.  I am looking to talk with an expert who has been involved with this type of transport and I would like to see video of a very similar, if not exact same transport.

I like Andrea's observance of "nobody" mentioned 9 times in TS posts.  Is this proof?  Of course not, but it could be a clue and it's intriguing.  I realize this can be dbunked but so can everything at this point.  I don't see any theory that can't be debunked.  I also believe that if it is true that less people involved is better, why couldn't it be the case that the same few people are playing different roles.  They are the paramedics, the coroner's office, etc. etc. Maybe even the dancers have played several of these roles.  We do not see any faces for the most part.
If there had been a body, and if it had been Michael's, I believe the family or trusted personnel in MJ's entourage would have accompanied the body on the helicopter and to the coroner's office.

It is not proven that the FBI is involved and carried out a sting but we seem to be agreeing that this is the case.  We have no proof yet it is plausible.  It mirrors Elvis, as we know many aspects of the hoax have, and it seems likely that this level of assistance would be needed to carry out something so intricate and sensitive. Therefore, the FBI is capable of staging any situation with the same few people playing different roles.  They  have the resources to make anything seem real just as the CIA can make a war seem real (wag the dog).

I think it has been agreed that the ambulance photo from Carollwood is photoshopped.  Therefore, for me, it is a strong clue that every aspect of the "scene" is staged. But if something needed to look real on June 25, you would need the ambulance for others to see and you would only need there to be a simulation that there was a photo taken of an acutal dead or dying person.

I do not see strong evidence that a person was living at Carollwood who died at the exact time needed in the MJ numerology.  The 911 call did not take place at the house but a hotel.  All staged.  No body is needed for a staging.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on April 22, 2011, 01:05:06 PM
I'd like to add more, please...   We cannot debunk any of the other good theories.  I respect the comments that a cadaver was used eventhough I don't believe it based on my investigation.   It's almost as if we're looking at a piece of art or Rorschach test that will have different interpretations depending on who's looking at it.  I just don't know if we can get closer except to say that Michael is alive.  Is it possible to know more about the methodology, absolutely?  (I ask this as a very real question, not rhetoric.)

I believe a cadaver requires too many people and is too risky and messy -- messy morally and ethically more than anything but that's my value system talking.   I realize that.  I just don't see how that's easy to explain to the public and MJ's fans. And how many people need to be involved with the purchasing or permission to use the cadaver? Perhaps only one?  Maybe... but why use it if you don't have to  and still not have that many people involved.  

Additionally, if the FBI is involved and medical personnel who are required to maintain confidentiality, what difference does it make if more people are involved?  They will take much information to their grave about MJ and otherwise.

I think you can make up a story about the body being old and frail but it doesn't mean that there wasn't an old and frail person except that the numerology is too precise, absolute perfection, to have the unpredictability of real life go along with the plan.  The old and frail and unrecognizable as MJ  story was a CLUE to us that there was no body.  Another clue that there was no body is that the ambulance photo doesn't look like MJ now.  We saw TII, we saw recent pictures of him supposedly a day before 6/25/09.   We know that the ambulance photo isn't the same time period in terms of MJ's looks.  No Body.

I do see that MJ riding along from the House to the ambulance and pretending to be dead is the prankster part, the amusement park/ride aspect that he might love.  Anything's possible.    Although, I believe with all we've discussed and read and reviewed that the matter is a serious one and less time for fun and games on the first day of the hoax.  I concede this is what I believe, it is not fact.  It is the best I could do.  I did my best for now.

I also believe that MJ was a master illusionist and he studied from the best.  Therefore, why use a body when illusion is better and more fun?  Michael loved fun, magic, illusion, escapism. And he has perfected that art as he does all of his talents.  Joey Skaggs, Geller, and all those magicians he planned to work with ought to be a clue too.  A magician never cuts a real body in half...

Also, someone said that perhaps a person or body going to UCLA isn't the same as what went on helicopter to coroner's office.  Perhaps this is true.  Doubles/multiples. More illusion.  We've heard so much, directly from Michael, about illusion and magic that I'm going with that fact only.  This is a great big, awesome, unlike any other, magic trick.
[/b]

(TS, I hope you come back soon. God bless. )

ILLUSION AT IT'S BEST:

"Game of Jacks"
http://movieclips.com/5tsjP-the-sting-movie-a-game-of-jacks/

"The Sting"
http://movieclips.com/ch8j-the-sting-movie-its-close/
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 22, 2011, 01:50:46 PM
To answer a question Michael himself posed: "Am I amusing you or just confusing you?"  BOTH!  :lol:   But I think there will be "no body to be found".  So let the performance start!  Or continue rather.  The foolish trickery...SCARED YET?

PS to TS - I'm not so great at debunking speculation because I've read a lot of theories that make sense and conflict each other at the same time.  Little help?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 22, 2011, 02:21:12 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
Hello :D

Souza i think that TMZ's "Mr.X" can be a clue to your theory with a sick patient who self performed suicide. If the fingerprints don't match with MJ's, CM's or any other family member or house staff then it could be fingerprints of this patient who's body was used in hoax.

To me the "no body" theory sounds more plausible, but i'm just trying to connect all the dots here  :D

L.O.V.E to all!

My problem is that all theories are still plausible. One a little more than the other, but I can't rule any of them out yet.

Maybe there is no body so that they can't be accused of entrapment. But who could have figured out that there was no body, other than theoretically? I don't know if we have enough info to really determine if there was a body/dummy/double/MJ or no body at all. So all we can do is see if the various theories would make sense or are possible. What I do know is that my brain is the size of a peanut now and TS needs to plant some more seeds to let it grow back :lol:

I have the same problem, all theories sound plausible to me too. I can't make up my mind on which theory is more convincing and of course non of them can  stand in the court like TS wants us to.  :lol: It's like we are trying to solve a puzzle with a lot of missing pieces and without actual picture to look at. We don't even know what pieces are we missing. It's just a big mind game and it's driving me crazy.  :mrgreen: TS PLEASE HAVE MERCY!!!! :)

And i just want to give you guys a little bit support here, since i'm not very good with making my own theory, that's all i can do for now :)

YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME, AMAZING AND WONDERFUL. I LOVE READING EACH AND EVERY POST! I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH FROM IT. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH. I LOVE YOU ALL A LOT A LOT A LOT.  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 22, 2011, 02:51:18 PM
I was expecting TS to make a post today as the date is interesting. It's 666 days from the 25th of June and it is 22.04.2011 which is 4.4.4 But it seems like nothing is going to happen today. What's up with TS?  :|
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: peacock7 on April 22, 2011, 03:51:02 PM
Quote from: "SoldierofLOVE"
I feel that I cannot absolutely prove that there was no body except to say that the following clues or ideas lead me to that conclusion.  Unfortunately, without information that I believe is unavailable to us there is no absolute proof.

The initial question TS asked is what if anything went to the hospital.  I realize I am looking at a different question regarding the helicopter transport.  To answer that helps me consider the other.   The  helicopter transport is so very unusual in every way and the positioning of the body on the stretcher to the coroner's van does not seem real.  It appears too flat and the feet are strangely positioned and not typical of a body that could not have completed a rigor mortis process.  The body hoisted by the knot, which is at the head,
does not apear to be procedurally appropriate.  It is indelicate at best.  There is weight to the body but the manner in which it is hoisted, does not appear to be as heavy as it would be if a real body was there.  This is speculation in some respects.  I am looking to talk with an expert who has been involved with this type of transport and I would like to see video of a very similar, if not exact same transport.

Great analysis So

I like Andrea's observance of "nobody" mentioned 9 times in TS posts.  Is this proof?  Of course not, but it could be a clue and it's intriguing.  I realize this can be dbunked but so can everything at this point.  I don't see any theory that can't be debunked.  I also believe that if it is true that less people involved is better, why couldn't it be the case that the same few people are playing different roles.  They are the paramedics, the coroner's office, etc. etc. Maybe even the dancers have played several of these roles.  We do not see any faces for the most part.
If there had been a body, and if it had been Michael's, I believe the family or trusted personnel in MJ's entourage would have accompanied the body on the helicopter and to the coroner's office.

It is not proven that the FBI is involved and carried out a sting but we seem to be agreeing that this is the case.  We have no proof yet it is plausible.  It mirrors Elvis, as we know many aspects of the hoax have, and it seems likely that this level of assistance would be needed to carry out something so intricate and sensitive. Therefore, the FBI is capable of staging any situation with the same few people playing different roles.  They  have the resources to make anything seem real just as the CIA can make a war seem real (wag the dog).

I think it has been agreed that the ambulance photo from Carollwood is photoshopped.  Therefore, for me, it is a strong clue that every aspect of the "scene" is staged. But if something needed to look real on June 25, you would need the ambulance for others to see and you would only need there to be a simulation that there was a photo taken of an acutal dead or dying person.

I do not see strong evidence that a person was living at Carollwood who died at the exact time needed in the MJ numerology.  The 911 call did not take place at the house but a hotel.  All staged.  No body is needed for a staging.

Great Analysis, SoldierofLove.  My thing is, why would there be a body?  I don't get how a dummy would involve more people when it is a movie.  Just like one of the latest videos shows all the discrepancies in the autopsy report, where the lady had said (written in report) that they transported MJ to the wrong place - and all of it.  That is a great video by the way.  It all ties in together.

When this hoax jumped off, it was right when the 911 call was made.  Why in the world did 40 minutes go by?  LOL!  Did the paramedics ever testify as to why it took them so long to travel 3 minutes.  Lol - did they have on the sirens when they arrived?  LMBO.  

Also on one of the pictures I think 2good2btrue posted, there was a nice looking building that I think he mentioned that Ben and them worked from.  In my estimation, it looks exactly like the studio the brothers went in to see the producer Greg.  Jackie went to one to see his son, so that might be the one I'm thinking about, and Jermaine and Tito went to one to see Jam & Lewis, so I'm not sure.  One of those studios might have been near Sunset or on it and near the Beverly Hills hotel.

Anyway, of course we don't know if a body or dummy was used, but I lean toward dummy/wax/mane.  After all, why didn't we get to see the ambulance travel and arrive at the hospital upon seeing all of the other so-called action at house?  The biggest entertainer in the world in History - and we can't see the ambulance carrying him?  That is one of the main things I thought we would see.  Again, they showed what later could be called, a bungled departure w/no sirens.  Lol
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 22, 2011, 06:12:55 PM
This is a suggestion only and my opinion. This is also the side of illusion I was referring to. I took all of this type of info into consideration when thinking about how far an illusion can be taken before real becomes necessary.

If you try to use something for your theory it is usually best to find out if it can be done. Find evidence to support what you state and study the info you find to present a strong theory. Include your research for evidence that others can actually click, see and read. That way people can see where the info came from and they don’t have to just take your word for it. They can decide whether to believe it or not.

I am not trying to debunk my cadaver theory but, I am providing evidence to help people see how optical illusions happen. In saying that I am referring to the body moving at any time or place. I am referring to the appearance to some people of a flat body. However I see a body and a heavy body being lifted off the yellow backboard inside the coroners van.  

If you have ever tried to pick up a drunk passed out person it is hard as hell. My girlfriend passed out from drinking Vodka. We were 15 at the time and she was passed out in the front yard of my neighbors. I tried to lift her many times. A passed out person becomes dead body weight. Heavy to lift.  8-)

The guy in the coroners van had an advantage to help him lift the body. The knot tied in the sheet provided him a better grip, it gave him the ability to lift that part of the body up and moved it over, the rest of the body can be slid as long as you have one good heave up and over. The body was on a stretcher with no rails to get in the way so the up and over was not difficult. He had an advantage of the body being at a higher level than it would be if he was lifting it from the bottom of the van floor. That would take more strength. Imagine a dead lift power competition. It’s in the legs for the initial boost to go up with the amount of weight the person is lifting. It is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesiology)

If you are going to say that no body was used then you should also explain HOW in each scenario. WHO the people are that would need to be in on it. Name them according to their job and what we know of the names.

Michael Jackson's Body Arrives At L.A. Coroner's Office
[youtube:2lojyqaj]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo&feature=related[/youtube:2lojyqaj]
Quote
Uploaded by PoliticsNewsPolitics on Jun 25, 2009
Helicopter Air Rescue 5 delivers the body of Michael Jackson to the L.A. Coroner's Office for a required autopsy.
Anatomy Of The Human Eye
http://www.visualillusion.net/Chap02/Page01.php (http://www.visualillusion.net/Chap02/Page01.php)

Optical Illusions, Lighting Effects
http://www.visualillusion.net/Chap10/Page01.php (http://www.visualillusion.net/Chap10/Page01.php)

Mirror Trick, Magic Optical Illusion
http://www.visualillusion.net/Chap14/ (http://www.visualillusion.net/Chap14/)

Optical Illusions, Camouflage In Nature
http://www.visualillusion.net/Chap15/Page01.php (http://www.visualillusion.net/Chap15/Page01.php)
Quote
Optical illusions played many roles in the art and science of deception during the Great War, but in the later stages of the war, they served most prominently upon the sea. Inasmuch as the story of the science of camouflage is not generally available, it appears worth while to present it briefly. Besides being of interest, it will reveal to the reader the part that the science of light, color, lighting, and vision played in deception. Furthermore, the reader will sense the numberless optical illusions which are woven into camouflage as developed in nature, and in human activities. The word camouflage by origin does not include all kinds of deception; however, by extension it may and will here signify almost the entire art and science of deception as found in nature and as practiced in the World War.

Terrestrial Camouflage.
Camouflage is an art which is the natural outgrowth of our instinct for concealment and deception when pitting our wits against those of a crafty prey or enemy. It is an art older than the human race, for its beginnings may be traced back to the obscurity of the early ages of the evolution of animal life. The name was coined by the French to apply to a definite art which developed during the Great War to a high state, as many other arts developed by drawing deeply upon the resources of scientific knowledge. With the introduction of this specific word to cover a vast field of activity in scientifically concealing and deceiving, many are led to believe that this is a new art, but such is not the case. However, like many other arts, such as that of flying, the exigencies of modern warfare have provided an impetus which has resulted in a highly developed art.
On this link is a video of a guy doing a broom trick. I figured out how he did it before it becomes obvious. See if you can figure out how it was done.
http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S9719 (http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S9719)

I love to watch Criss perform and I think he is very good at what he does. This video is only for educational purposes to show how our eyes truly make our minds think we are seeing something happening.
[youtube:2lojyqaj]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuNaF9Rcn18&feature=related[/youtube:2lojyqaj]

This video is showing how illusions are done.
[youtube:2lojyqaj]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pmCVPPLqVM&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_512010[/youtube:2lojyqaj]
[/b]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 22, 2011, 06:34:14 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
I was expecting TS to make a post today as the date is interesting. It's 666 days from the 25th of June and it is 22.04.2011 which is 4.4.4 But it seems like nothing is going to happen today. What's up with TS?  :|

I was asking myself the same thing. where is TS??
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Nyuki on April 22, 2011, 08:24:26 PM
I think TS hoaxed his death... :o
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 22, 2011, 08:37:24 PM
Michael Jackson's body was flown in a Sheriff's Department helicopter from UCLA Medical Center to downtown Los Angeles for examination by the Los Angeles County coroner's office. TV news stations covered the trip live.

Police officers guarded the entrance to the coroner's building on Mission Road. News helicopters hovered overhead and county police officers and sheriff's deputies are closed access to adjacent County-USC Medical Center parking lots near the State Street entrance to the new hospital.

The lots are far from full, so this appears to be related to the arrival of Michael Jackson's body, which appears to have already occurred. A Sheriff's Department helicopter apparently landed on an older helipad near those parking lots, near the crematorium.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... ights.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/06/michael-jacksons-death-pop-stars-body-flown-from-ucla-to-boyle-heights.html)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlD ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo&feature=related)
[youtube:4s25m3zv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo&feature=related[/youtube:4s25m3zv]


I'm trying to work on who are all those people there and whether they resemble anyone else.....Bear with me,.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 22, 2011, 09:00:08 PM
Okay, I changed my mind completely. I think it was MJ on the stretcher in the ambulance and at the hospital, sitting up. The reason why I think so is because I think June 25 never happened. It was ALL an illusion. No entrapment if it never happened. All there was created, was an opportunity.

I have always found it strange that they wrapped up the rehearsals so close to the death date. That seems a tight deadline for a control freak like MJ. He wants everything perfect right? What if something was NOT recorded the way he wanted? There would have been no opportunity to reshoot. Never made sense to me. Unless of course, he fooled US as well, and TII was shot earlier with ADDITIONAL SCENES and June 25 simply never happened.

I might go slightly off topic here, but I have to to explain my point.

In the tourbus video there is something weird that chappie pointed out to me on the phone. At the end there is this lady on the corner of the street that is on the phone: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a ... ce-de_news (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a_michael-jackson-depart-ambulance-de_news). Someone on the bus mentions that she is a big MJ fan. So WHY is she there? The ambulance has been in the house for ages, with the fire truck outside. Being a big MJ fan, she must have known it was Michael's house, so why didn't she go there to check out what happened? Apparently she also didn't call other fans, because the street is empty. No fans, no paparazzi, no nothing. In the video below Ben mentions that it was very quiet that day:

[youtube:1w0zogjp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2_421PgyJw[/youtube:1w0zogjp]

2 female fans, 2 autograph collectors and '4 of us' (NPG). First of all, the ambulance had been there for 40!!! minutes, yet no other fan showed up to check out what happened. There were 2 fans there, plus the one on the corner of the street, but apparently they didn't notify other fans that something was going on. Cars must have been passing by and tour busses came on and off according to Ben. Since when can something happen UNNOTIFIED for 40 minutes at MJ's house that has ambulances and firetrucks involved? The most hunted man on the planet, yet that ambulance can stay there for 40 minutes without attracting zillions of fans and paparazzi? Okay...

Also notice that the only paps on the scene were from the NPG. That means the HollywoodTV video ALSO comes from Ben et al. On HollywoodTV's website it says: "Hollywood.TV obtained video of Michael Jackson as he was rushed to UCLA Medical Center" while they say about another video: "Hollywood.TV was able to confirm that Britney Spears had suffered a mental breakdown and was being rushed to the hospital. Hollywood.TV was on the spot and shot the only video of the pop star on a stretcher." This tells me that someone either sold or sent them the video and that they did not shoot it themselves. So this means to me that not only the ambulance picture was staged, but also the video. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I hadn't thought it through yet. It makes sense.

Possible scenario:

Spring/Summer 2008: The video of the ambulance was shot with MJ himself in it. They shoot the video at the house and at the hospital, but not in between. They followed that ambulance again right before June 25, because advertisements along the road most likely had changed within the year, or any other stuff that might show it would be recent. They follow the ambulance the whole way, yet we never see them arriving. We only have a video where the ambulance is already parked there. They make the pictures with the jackets and the MJ sitting up, and done, wrapped up for the day. Or maybe they needed more days, because I read somewhere on this thread that the ambulance was seen more often in that street.

Ben also mentioned that a lot of staff was leaving. Could be any day, because the videos below are BOTH clearly cut. No LAFD seen anywhere in these shots and Ben said they were there every day. So when were the shots of the staff taken? The other day? So that staff, or whoever they are, could have left the day before or the day after. And yes, they might have recognized themselves on one of the vids, IF they have seen these, but they must have known Ben was there EVERY day and probably thought he messed up the editing. Not important anyway and even IF they thought it was strange, they would only suspect something going on, like we do.

[youtube:1w0zogjp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2_421PgyJw[/youtube:1w0zogjp]
[youtube:1w0zogjp]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI[/youtube:1w0zogjp]

On June 25, all they had to do was block the street one way or another to make sure that there was no possibility that someone was around the house the whole day, to know nothing ever happened. There are many ways they could have accompolished that. And some people had to be in the house to call 911 at the right time and provide background noise. But actually that could have been recorded too. If LAFD is in on it, they could have simply 'created' that emergency screen. If it had to be in the records, they probably did really call 911 at 12:21, but the dispatcher must have been in on it since he hangs up after 2 minutes already, while the paramedics hadn't even arrived (probably because they never would arrive). Risky because another dispatchet could have taken the call? I don't know, they probably have ways for that, or something like a direct line or disconnecting the other phones for 3 seconds or so.

Step further, at the hospital, the fire alarm goes off. People are evacuated and therefore no one sees that nothing ever arrived. At least not the famous MJ ambulance, because ambulances arrive there multiple times a day. Department closed, Dr. Cooper has a cup of coffee and is on the phone with someone to discuss the details one more time, before she pronounces 'MJ AIR' dead at 2:26 pm. Helicopter 'decides' to make a test flight to the coroner, or bring stuff or whatever and Joe Jackson (or an 'anonymous source') tips CNN that MJ's body will be transported by helicopter to the coroner.

In on it:

LAFD firestation 71 (Chief and the paramedics involved)
NPG
UCLA Dr. Cooper and COO
Bodyguards
Murray, whoever he is
Kai Chase (only staff member present)
Coroner

Of course more are in, but this is just for those few hours.

Helicopter staff might just have been told to let the media think they followed MJ for safety reasons

As for the tour bus, Iaybe the tourbus was staged and full of FBI agents/friends involved atc. There weren't that many in that bus, so that could be possible.

Another possibility is that it is a real tour bus and that only one of the people was in on it and just took the right bus at the right time. If it would have been June 2008, it would not have been interesting enough for other people on the bus to tape it. They look, and we see no faces. They probably woul not recognize themselves, most definitely not if there is a year in between. If you weren't there, it can't be you. I know they talk about it being MJ's house, but that's just audio. I think I can at least name one person definitely 'in on it' who is quite good with audio. :lol: Again, why is the fan at the end of the street acting like nothing happened. Like: "Drive already and let me finish my phone call. I'll call you when I have time, don't be annoying."

So in summary: MJ on stretcher in abulance (so why not also MJ on ambulance pic?) and on stretcher at hospital (sitting up), but not on June 25, but the other uhhhm day. It's a hoax, it never happened. It's ALL an illusion. No one saw the ambulance that day, no one except Ben Evanstad et al. Yeah right!

You wrap up a movie before you screen it to make sure there are no mistakes that annoying hoaxers could notice. The plan needs to be perfect, waterproof. If the ambulance video was shot live on June 25, it could have been a busy paparazzi-day and Chris might not have gotten near the window to fake the picture and then the staged pic would be useless. Or another pap might have gotten lucky enough to shoot SOMETHING through the window. Not likely, but too risky. No risks at a well planned hoax like this, too much at stake.

TII must have been shot sooner too, I have always thought it was strange Timor left for LA in late 2008/early 2009 already. I think that when the auditions for the dancers were held, TII was already a wrap. But that's too far off topic.

Here is a challenge for you TS: Can you give at least 2 strong arguments that show me there was an ambulance at all on June 25, 2009?Until then, I think this could very well be the case. I don't think there is a scenario with less people involved.

It's a hoax, a magic trick, an illusion. It didn't happen on June 25, MJ AIR.

Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 22, 2011, 09:00:52 PM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
This article below was written back in December 2010. So the idea and process of someone else killed Michael was already a theory in progress. This is a stage in the process of adding to the defense side of reasonable doubt. I find it interesting that this writer says that the second syringe (the one found on the floor) had an unidentified fingerprint on it.

When did we find out about the fingerprint in question? When did we find out about the defense requesting that the FBI turn over the first generation print from that syringe?

This seems odd to me that the defense would have to request the prints from FBI to actually have it tested to Murray’s prints at that stage of the game. It is not odd that the defense would ask for the FBI prints to use in their defense theory. But the odd part is IF FBI is involved with handling the prints shouldn’t they have already tried to match Murray’s prints or eliminate him from the owner of the prints when they first got it?

That is why the FBI usually helps the police with prints because they have better technology available and access to every known print on file in existence. Unless the FBI did match Murray’s prints to the syringe from the IV it was connected to but the other didn’t and in that case one match was good enough to take him to trial….hmmm

http://www.parcbench.com/2010/12/30/did ... l-himself/ (http://www.parcbench.com/2010/12/30/did-michael-jackson-kill-himself/)

(http://www.parcbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Conrad1-300x236.jpg)
Quote
Written by Greg Victor in Celebrities, ParcLIVE!

Get a good look at this guy’s face (to the left) – celebrity trials being what they are in America, you’re probably going to be seeing and hearing a lot more of him. His name is Dr. Conrad Murray and he is facing an involuntary manslaughter charge in the death of pop legend Michael Jackson.

One of his attorneys indicated that the defense will focus on a second syringe found at the singer’s bedside. Like I said – prepare yourself for yet another long-term media circus that won’t let the King of Pop’s memory rest. Murray’s attorney, J. Michael Flanagan, told the judge the syringe might have been used by someone other than the doctor to administer the anesthetic that caused Jackson’s death on June 25, 2009.

The hearing this Wednesday was over a defense request for a court order that would allow the county coroner’s office to test the quantity of the drugs in two syringes and an IV bag found in Jackson’s room. One syringe was connected to the IV and used by Murray to administer drugs. The other was found on the floor, broken, with an unidentified fingerprint.

Murray’s attorney asked L. A. County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor, “Who injected the propofol? That’s the issue in this case.” It’s not unlike the police finding two guns at a crime scene and figuring out which of the guns did it.

In early statements to police, Murray said he gave the singer 25 milligrams — half the regular dose. Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren said the defense might be preparing up to argue that the second syringe was used by the singer to administer the propofol to himself.

A preliminary hearing to determine whether there is enough evidence for Murray’s trial to go forward is scheduled to begin Tuesday.

In other Michael Jackson news…
(http://www.parcbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/MJ4-239x300.jpg)
Quote
Executors of the Michael Jackson estate demanded that the European version of the Discovery Channel cancel their plans for a show re-enacting the dead superstar’s autopsy.

They called the planned show “in shockingly bad taste” and they accused the company of being motivated by “blind desire to exploit Michael’s death, while cynically attempting to dupe the public into believing this show will have serious medical value.” They were outraged by an Internet ad now circulating for the show, “Michael Jackson’s Autopsy,” saying it depicts a corpse on a steel gurney covered by a sheet with a hand sticking out wearing Michael’s signature sequined glove.

While it’s not uncommon for simulated autopsies to be performed for educational purposes on synthetic cadavers, those synthetic cadavers are never identified as representing a specific person.

Let’s hope the Discovery Channel axes the show. As for the programming genius who planned this show, and the advertising genius who came up with this poster, let’s hope heads will roll. And no autopsy.
(http://www.parcbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/MJ1.jpg)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... ringe.html (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3475813/Michael-Jacksons-fingerprints-found-on-deadly-syringe.html)
Quote
By PETE SAMSON, US Editor
Published: 18 Mar 2011
FINGERPRINTS on a broken syringe found under Michael Jackson's bed could be used by his doctor Conrad Murray to prove the star killed himself.

I found this article below that I never read before while searching for articles on the syringe. It is interesting the words Ian used back in June 2009. I know not everything is truth written. I know this man has a bad rep but look beyond that and see where the descriptions said about Michael may have originated from when all other stories came out later. One thing I do know when it comes to playing off of something already written; use it to your advantage. Use the shark’s weapon of choice to attack back. Ian has already given his weak spot years ago and his behavior is predictable. All MJ had to do was give him bait.

 Some things like MJ dressing a certain way to give people certain impressions to write these types of things is exactly what IMO MJ did. That was his subliminal clues to start these rumors. After the sharks took the bait and published their interpretation and tabloidesh stories, MJ then again used that to his advantage and fueled the fires with more tabloid stories to keep the rumor going. That is what improv is about. lol 8-)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-ago.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196009/Im-better-dead-Im-How-Michael-Jackson-predicted-death-months-ago.html)[/b]

I need to learn how to spell better. :ugeek:


is it just me or is murray giving someone the ole if looks could kill stare in this pic?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 22, 2011, 09:19:17 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Okay, I changed my mind completely. I think it was MJ on the stretcher in the ambulance and at the hospital, sitting up. The reason why I think so is because I think June 25 never happened. It was ALL an illusion. No entrapment if it never happened. All there was created, was an opportunity.

I have always found it strange that they wrapped up the rehearsals so close to the death date. That seems a tight deadline for a control freak like MJ. He wants everything perfect right? What if something was NOT recorded the way he wanted? There would have been no opportunity to reshoot. Never made sense to me. Unless of course, he fooled US as well, and TII was shot earlier with ADDITIONAL SCENES and June 25 simply never happened.

I might go slightly off topic here, but I have to to explain my point.

In the tourbus video there is something weird that chappie pointed out to me on the phone. At the end there is this lady on the corner of the street that is on the phone: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a ... ce-de_news (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a_michael-jackson-depart-ambulance-de_news). Someone on the bus mentions that she is a big MJ fan. So WHY is she there? The ambulance has been in the house for ages, with the fire truck outside. Being a big MJ fan, she must have known it was Michael's house, so why didn't she go there to check out what happened? Apparently she also didn't call other fans, because the street is empty. No fans, no paparazzi, no nothing. In the video below Ben mentions that it was very quiet that day:

[youtube:2lx4gimd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2_421PgyJw[/youtube:2lx4gimd]

2 female fans, 2 autograph collectors and '4 of us' (NPG). First of all, the ambulance had been there for 40!!! minutes, yet no other fan showed up to check out what happened. There were 2 fans there, plus the one on the corner of the street, but apparently they didn't notify other fans that something was going on. Cars must have been passing by and tour busses came on and off according to Ben. Since when can something happen UNNOTIFIED for 40 minutes at MJ's house that has ambulances and firetrucks involved? The most hunted man on the planet, yet that ambulance can stay there for 40 minutes without attracting zillions of fans and paparazzi? Okay...

Also notice that the only paps on the scene were from the NPG. That means the HollywoodTV video ALSO comes from Ben et al. On HollywoodTV's website it says: "Hollywood.TV obtained video of Michael Jackson as he was rushed to UCLA Medical Center" while they say about another video: "Hollywood.TV was able to confirm that Britney Spears had suffered a mental breakdown and was being rushed to the hospital. Hollywood.TV was on the spot and shot the only video of the pop star on a stretcher." This tells me that someone either sold or sent them the video and that they did not shoot it themselves. So this means to me that not only the ambulance picture was staged, but also the video. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I hadn't thought it through yet. It makes sense.

Possible scenario:

Spring/Summer 2008: The video of the ambulance was shot with MJ himself in it. They shoot the video at the house and at the hospital, but not in between. They followed that ambulance again right before June 25, because advertisements along the road most likely had changed within the year, or any other stuff that might show it would be recent. They follow the ambulance the whole way, yet we never see them arriving. We only have a video where the ambulance is already parked there. They make the pictures with the jackets and the MJ sitting up, and done, wrapped up for the day. Or maybe they needed more days, because I read somewhere on this thread that the ambulance was seen more often in that street.

Ben also mentioned that a lot of staff was leaving. Could be any day, because the videos below are BOTH clearly cut. No LAFD seen anywhere in these shots and Ben said they were there every day. So when were the shots of the staff taken? The other day? So that staff, or whoever they are, could have left the day before or the day after. And yes, they might have recognized themselves on one of the vids, IF they have seen these, but they must have known Ben was there EVERY day and probably thought he messed up the editing. Not important anyway and even IF they thought it was strange, they would only suspect something going on, like we do.

[youtube:2lx4gimd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2_421PgyJw[/youtube:2lx4gimd]
[youtube:2lx4gimd]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI[/youtube:2lx4gimd]

On June 25, all they had to do was block the street one way or another to make sure that there was no possibility that someone was around the house the whole day, to know nothing ever happened. There are many ways they could have accompolished that. And some people had to be in the house to call 911 at the right time and provide background noise. But actually that could have been recorded too. If LAFD is in on it, they could have simply 'created' that emergency screen. If it had to be in the records, they probably did really call 911 at 12:21, but the dispatcher must have been in on it since he hangs up after 2 minutes already, while the paramedics hadn't even arrived (probably because they never would arrive). Risky because another dispatchet could have taken the call? I don't know, they probably have ways for that, or something like a direct line or disconnecting the other phones for 3 seconds or so.

Step further, at the hospital, the fire alarm goes off. People are evacuated and therefore no one sees that nothing ever arrived. At least not the famous MJ ambulance, because ambulances arrive there multiple times a day. Department closed, Dr. Cooper has a cup of coffee and is on the phone with someone to discuss the details one more time, before she pronounces 'MJ AIR' dead at 2:26 pm. Helicopter 'decides' to make a test flight to the coroner, or bring stuff or whatever and Joe Jackson (or an 'anonymous source') tips CNN that MJ's body will be transported by helicopter to the coroner.

In on it:

LAFD firestation 71 (Chief and the paramedics involved)
NPG
UCLA Dr. Cooper and COO
Bodyguards
Murray, whoever he is
Kai Chase (only staff member present)
Coroner

Of course more are in, but this is just for those few hours.

Helicopter staff might just have been told to let the media think they followed MJ for safety reasons

As for the tour bus, Iaybe the tourbus was staged and full of FBI agents/friends involved atc. There weren't that many in that bus, so that could be possible.

Another possibility is that it is a real tour bus and that only one of the people was in on it and just took the right bus at the right time. If it would have been June 2008, it would not have been interesting enough for other people on the bus to tape it. They look, and we see no faces. They probably woul not recognize themselves, most definitely not if there is a year in between. If you weren't there, it can't be you. I know they talk about it being MJ's house, but that's just audio. I think I can at least name one person definitely 'in on it' who is quite good with audio. :lol: Again, why is the fan at the end of the street acting like nothing happened. Like: "Drive already and let me finish my phone call. I'll call you when I have time, don't be annoying."

So in summary: MJ on stretcher in abulance (so why not also MJ on ambulance pic?) and on stretcher at hospital (sitting up), but not on June 25, but the other uhhhm day. It's a hoax, it never happened. It's ALL an illusion. No one saw the ambulance that day, no one except Ben Evanstad et al. Yeah right!

You wrap up a movie before you screen it to make sure there are no mistakes that annoying hoaxers could notice. The plan needs to be perfect, waterproof. If the ambulance video was shot live on June 25, it could have been a busy paparazzi-day and Chris might not have gotten near the window to fake the picture and then the staged pic would be useless. Or another pap might have gotten lucky enough to shoot SOMETHING through the window. Not likely, but too risky. No risks at a well planned hoax like this, too much at stake.

TII must have been shot sooner too, I have always thought it was strange Timor left for LA in late 2008/early 2009 already. I think that when the auditions for the dancers were held, TII was already a wrap. But that's too far off topic.

Here is a challenge for you TS: Can you give at least 2 strong arguments that show me there was an ambulance at all on June 25, 2009?Until then, I think this could very well be the case. I don't think there is a scenario with less people involved.

It's a hoax, a magic trick, an illusion. It didn't happen on June 25, MJ AIR.



Souza, Wow! I commend you, that is amazing, you should be an  private investigator or a lawyer. Unless you are. This makes absolutely sense. I wonder what TS will say.. thanks Souza.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 22, 2011, 09:21:29 PM

I forgot to mention the FBI, who is of course in on it, otherwise too hard to involve all other government agencies.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 22, 2011, 09:24:49 PM
Quote
You wrap up a movie before you screen it to make sure there are no mistakes that annoying hoaxers could notice. The plan needs to be perfect, waterproof. If the ambulance video was shot live on June 25, it could have been a busy paparazzi-day and Chris might not have gotten near the window to fake the picture and then the staged pic would be useless. Or another pap might have gotten lucky enough to shoot SOMETHING through the window. Not likely, but too risky. No risks at a well planned hoax like this, too much at stake.

Thumbs up to this theory, Souza. A complete hoax start to finish is the most air tight, lowest risk way to do this. Pre-planning and pre-filming allows complete control of each phase, movie editing puts it together to create the story of "The Day Michael Jackson Died".

This means of course that I was right all along  :lol:  There was no body, MJ did sit up on the stretcher going into UCLA, and Van Video was real. The pics and video that show all of these things weren't taken on 6/25/09.

When kicked around (I triedto debunk it when Souza first shared it) it's tight and very plausible. Actually, it quickly starts to seem like the most logical answer of all.

It's a Movie. Duh.

 ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 22, 2011, 09:40:27 PM
I haven't changed my mind on the corpse being used but, I am providing evidence for those who want to go with the theory of no body used and it is all a movie theory.

I use to watch the show North Mission Road. I realize they use actors in the reinactment of the episodes but these shows are based on real cases. If you read the wiki on Los Angeles Coroner it will give you the names of who is in charge of who. That could also explain who a key person is at the coroner office when it comes to being the few in on it. This still could mean a corpse was used for the other people not in on it. Those who the sting operation was meant to catch and take down.;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Mission_Road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Mission_Road)
Quote
North Mission Road is a documentary style show on truTV that details "unique and compelling" cases of the Los Angeles County Coroner Department. The name of the show is based on the road on which the office of the Los Angeles County Coroner is located.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_County_Coroner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_County_Coroner)
Quote
The Los Angeles County Department of Coroner was created in its present form in Boyle Heights on December 7, 1990 by an ordinance approved by the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors, though it has existed in some form since the late 19th century.

All physician staff is under the control of the Chief Medical Examiner-Coroner Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran M.D. while the director Anthony Hernandez has authority to manage all non-physician operations and staff under the general direction of the Board of Supervisors. It is unique in the world in that it is the only coroner's office to have an active gift shop.
http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2004/ ... sion_r.php (http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2004/10/north_mission_r.php)
Quote
'North Mission Road'
Kevin Roderick • October 15 2004 11:25 AM
That's the title of Court TV's new show based on access to the files of the Los Angeles County Coroner's morgue, located at 1104 N. Mission Road. I haven't watched the show, but a few blog entries I've seen liked it. (Here's a post I wrote last year about a visit to the morgue "service floor," as they call it.) The Mission Road offices are also the home of Skeletons in the Closet, the gift shop with a sense of humor ("for those of us of dubious distinctive taste") that sells morgue "souvenirs" and merchandise with the Los Angeles Department of Coroner brand around the world. I wrote about the shop last year for Smithsonian.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0381788/epcast (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0381788/epcast)

[youtube:1nn6g8vy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChlKQR612n4[/youtube:1nn6g8vy]

I will be back to give an explanation of why a corpse would not cause an entrapment issue. I will explain the difference when it comes to sting operations, when it involves corruption and the need to make it as real as possible when taking down those already committing crimes. 8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 22, 2011, 11:06:51 PM
Souza, your theory fascinates me...And as I do believe that a movie is definitely a part of this hoax, it makes sense that Michael would that particularly scene to happen just right with no mistakes.  It could have been filmed in real time of course (June 25th), the ultimate reality hoax.  But still, why was there virtually nobody around the house when all this was going down?  That part bugs me.

Either way, it still seems there's no need for a dead body and it's entirely possible that Michael did make the trip to the hospital on that day or the other day.  I really see someone in the video of Ben's when he's at the window of the ambulance, it's blackened but I see a flash of a mysterious shrouded face and hat.  But I'm curious as to what the "other day" would be.  We know there was an "other day" from Ben...but were there more than one "other day"?  Since numerology is so important in this hoax I would think the "other day" date would be of significance.  So was there a lot more that happened on the "other day" than just the ambulance photo being taken?

I am currently perplexed.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 23, 2011, 12:23:00 AM
Ok.  So I've been thinking more about your theory Souza.  Had to let it sink in.  You had mentioned earlier that maybe it was filmed in December because of the Christmas wreaths on the gate.  Combine that thought with "we have 4 years to get it right".  Combine those two with this article from TMZ.

Quote
Michael Jackson -- Alpha Male?
12/21/2008 12:26 PM PST by TMZ Staff  

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2008/12/21/1221_michael_jackson_v3-1.jpg)
Michael may be in desperate need of a lung transplant, according to Ian Halperin, author of a new M.J. bio.

Halperin claims Jacko suffers from a rare genetic disorder known as Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency, which has led to emphysema and gastrointestinal bleeding.

Halperin told In Touch Michael can barely speak and is nearly blind in his left eye.

We called MJ's reps -- nothing.
 
http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-j ... lpha-male/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-jackson-alpha-male/)

Then the very next article about Michael the very next day.

Quote
Michael Jackson's New Crib
12/22/2008 8:26 AM PST by TMZ Staff  

He's been teetering on the financial brink for years, yet we've learned somehow Michael Jackson has rented a home in one of the most exclusive areas of L.A. for a whopping $100,000 a month.

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2008/12/22/1222_jacko_launch_2-1.jpg)

The $38 million Holmby Hils pad has seven bedrooms, 13 baths, 12 fireplaces, a screening room and, of course, a cellar for Jesus juice. For sleepovers, there's a guest house, swimming pool and garden.

The deal was inked several weeks ago under a heavy-duty confidentiality agreement. Michael already has stayed there.
http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-j ... -new-crib/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-jacksons-sleeping-in-a-new-crib/)

So an article written on 12/21 at 12:26 - 911 call time and ambulance arrival time!  :shock:   And the article title calls him an "alpha male" - someone dominant and in charge.  Was the footage filmed that day then?  It could explain the Christmas wreaths and the "four years to get it right" comment as exactly 4 years after 12/21/08 is 12/21/12, the supposed EOW date.  Then the next day TMZ shows us where Michael is supposed to be living...that could explain why there was no one hanging about in the video, if it happened the day before that knowledge was made public!  With it's 7 bedrooms.  

And if that's not enough, the very next article on Michael from TMZ is this:

Quote
Michael Jackson -- The New Kevin Bacon
12/23/2008 11:05 PM PST by TMZ Staff  

Michael Jackson has not just leased a $100,000 a month mansion -- by making the deal he's created a connection with Justin Timberlake, Ed Hardy, "Baywatch" and "Dancing with the Stars."
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2008/12/24/1223_mj_hardy_house_exd_04-1.jpg)

Here's the deal. As we first reported, Jackson inked the deal for the Holmby Hills mansion several weeks ago. The place is owned by the Guez living trust, managed by Hubert Guez, a textile magnate who is the newly named CEO of Ed Hardy. Now here's where the plot thickens. Jacko made a rare public appearance last May at the 50th birthday party of Christian Audigier, the famous Ed Hardy designer.

But wait, there's more. Hubert Guez has a brother, Paul, who ran a massive textile company with him. Paul has a son, Danny, who started a clothing line with Justin Timberlake, called William Rast.

But the story isn't over. Paul's other son, David, is an actor, but he doesn't use his dad's last name. Rather, David uses his mom's maiden name -- Charvet. Yes, the same David Charvet who was on "Baywatch" and is engaged to Brooke Burke.

Kevin Bacon, eat your heart out.
http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/24/michael-j ... vin-bacon/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/24/michael-jackson-the-new-kevin-bacon/)

The article was written at 11:05...remember remember the fifth of November.  V for Vendetta shows there are no coincidences and how everything is connected...so is this article written at 11:05 showing how everyone is connected to Michael a coincidence?  :lol:  :shock:

And then!

Quote
Jacko Loves Paul -- Yeah Yeah Yeah
1/4/2009 6:00 AM PST by TMZ Staff  

Those who said Paul McCartney would only regain the rights to the Beatles catalog over Michael Jackson's dead body may have been right.

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/01/04/0104_jackson_mccartney-1.jpg)
Sources close to Jackson tell the Mirror Jacko wants to end his 24-year feud with McCartney by leaving his remaining share of the Beatles library to Paul in his will. Jacko snaked McCartney back in 1985 in a bidding war for full ownership of the roughly $700 million Lennon-McCartney songbook

If the rumors about Michael's health problems are true it might not be too much longer before McCartney can sing "Hey Jude" without paying a fee.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/01/04/jacko-lov ... yeah-yeah/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/01/04/jacko-loves-paul-yeah-yeah-yeah/)

Then TMZ refers to Michael's "dead body" when he is still alive...

The rest of the stories from then until June 25th we all know - MJ being ill, his stuff going up for auction (no it's not!), the This Is It announcement, AllGood, lawsuits and so on..

Their last mention of Michael before the cardiac arrest article was on June 19th, 7 days (inclusive) before June 25th...

Basically, is this all a big fat coincidence or a big fat hoax?  I go with hoax.  And it reinforces TMZ's involvement even more since they were heavily hinting 6 months before the hoax, although nobody would've suspected a thing then.  What I want to know is when the "other day" was.  Possibly when the ambulance scene was filmed.  Was it 6 months before June 25th?  When various media outlets were reporting Michael had 6 months to live??  Is that when the "4 years" countdown started? 12/21/08? I wonder if This Is It was already filmed at that point.  Not that I think he'll wait the full 4 years to come back, I'm still thinking it will be this year.  Ok, I'm starting to go on and on so I'll stop.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 23, 2011, 12:29:05 AM
This may seem off topic, but it is not. If MJ really is trying to open our eyes to the NWO, this completely debunks the possibility of him co-operating with someone who will be an assisted suicide. "Assisted Suicide" is NWO DOUBLE-SPEAK for, "Deceive, Drug and Dispatch". It has been, and IS done in hospitals in various places for years, and only because of the few awake and aware, disrupting their plans with court action, has it evolved into legislation to permit this "legally".

[I tried to stay out of this thread, on the subject, but all that talk about the law here and there, as if "legal" means acceptable, has awakened the Mother Beast.]

Don't believe everything you read or hear from the deceived. It is neither for compassion or dignity; it is for population control, and it is done "legally AND illegally, every single day in the ICU and Hospice, somewhere in America.

Neither is there ANY FREE choice involved, once the doctors fill the already beaten down, hurting, despondent-out-of-their-mind, drugged patient, full of fear, fabricating the grimmest future possible. :twisted:  :evil:  :x  

If someone is bent on SELF-destruction, it is their choice, albeit a questionable one.  But it is never for the government to make it legal to facilitate "helping" them die.

THIS IS REALLY CREEPY.

Talk about involuntary commitment. I remember when it used to be illegal to make a contract for anything when one of the parties wasn't at full capacity...Agreeing to Death is the ultimate commitment.

Ponder this: What are you signing when you sign admission papers to a hospital? Why is it that they have to get signed permission to place a pic line or feeding tube, or certain other non ER treatments, but you don't have ANYTHING to say about them keeping your loved one under 24/7 with sedation and the drug of choice for Hospice, which slows all body systems down enough to expeditiously, prematurely ruin their organs? People die of "organ failure" every day; how convenient that no one mentions that it was caused by hospital "care"...

I can't see Michael Jackson being ANY part of this, even after the fact that the contract has been made for such a thing between patient and doctor. If anything, I believe HIS beliefs would compel him to spend the time, pray with the patient to maybe affect a healing, and leave the rest up to God, or at least, talk him OUT of prematurely ending his own life. But waiting, like a NWO vulture, for another's body for his own purposes?? NO.

I am not saying don't go to a hospital if it is necessary. If a "treatment is necessary, the EMTs and ER professionals will do it without anyone's permission. They will sedate you to pop a shoulder back in, or reset a broken nose, or saw a limb the rest of the way off, if they can't save it, etc., because it is necessary to keep you peaceful (unstressed) and alive.  

I'm just saying, don't agree to let them install a feeding tube, if you are ASKED permission, on behalf of a spouse or relative, or they'll sedate them, to discourage visiting them or keeping watch over them (or observing anything), and eventually, convince the family that the person "is not" "in" there, any longer. Of course, if they are too sedated they will be placed on a ventilator. In this case, they won't be able to survive any extubation or shut-off, after two weeks, even if they were only on the vent because of the FIRST propofol!!

Perhaps an extreme situation, but actually NOT so uncommon. In a hospital here, EVERYONE in the ICU is administered anti-psychotic drugs. It is for the convenience of the staff. It is NOT because patients are fighting their necessary treatment...WHY would a normal person of sound mind, madly claw and fight "treatment", such as involuntary sedation?????????????????????? Is THAT scary for ya?

The NWO is based in selfishness, greed and cruelty. They are not going to play fair and nice, only pretend to. MOST people cannot imagine SUCH :cry: cruelty, especially from those who have taken an oath to never cause harm, and are looking you right in your eyes... But, all the time, the NWO/PTB deceive good, innocent, unaware people, speaking to their fears and their feelings, acting like a friend who cares, and lately, in some cases, whispering, "It's perfectly legal, now".

If I have misunderstood, :oops:  and a part of MJ's message is NOT about this evil, NWO deception and Double Speak, then, I am really sorry.

It is still, hands on, true.  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yambo3003 on April 23, 2011, 12:35:54 AM
Great theory Souza! It makes perfect sense. Do you think the trial is also prerecorded? Just wondering since you mention the risks of being shot live.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 23, 2011, 12:52:51 AM
Quote
I will be back to give an explanation of why a corpse would not cause an entrapment issue. I will explain the difference when it comes to sting operations, when it involves corruption and the need to make it as real as possible when taking down those already committing crimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation)
Quote
In law enforcement, a sting operation is a deceptive operation designed to catch a person committing a crime. A typical sting will have a law-enforcement officer or cooperative member of the public play a role as criminal partner or potential victim and go along with a suspect's actions to gather evidence of the suspect's wrongdoing.

Sting operations are common in the United States, but not allowed in other countries such as Sweden and the Netherlands.

Examples
*Deploying a bait car (also called a honey trap) to catch an auto thief.
*Setting up a seemingly vulnerable honeypot computer to lure and gain information about hackers.
*Arranging someone under the legal drinking age to ask an adult to buy an alcoholic beverage or tobacco products for them.
*Posing as someone who is seeking illegal drugs, contraband or child pornography to catch a supplier; or as a supplier to catch a customer.
*Passing off explosives to a would-be terror bomber.
*Posing as a child in a chat room to lure a child molester
*An undercover officer posing as a potential customer to raid illegal prostitution.
*An undercover officer posing as a prostitute to raid illegal patronage.

Ethical and legal concerns
Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment. Law-enforcement may have to be careful not to provoke the commission of a crime by someone who would not normally be inclined to do so. Additionally, in the process of such operations, the police often engage in the same crimes, such as buying or selling contraband, soliciting prostitutes, etc. In common law jurisdictions, the defendant may invoke the defense of entrapment.

Contrary to popular misconceptions, however, entrapment does not prohibit undercover police officers from posing as criminals or denying that they are police. Entrapment is typically only a defense if a suspect is pressured into committing a crime they would probably not have committed otherwise, though the legal definition of this pressure varies greatly from country to country. For example, if undercover officers coerced a potential suspect into manufacturing illegal drugs to sell them, then the accused could use entrapment as a defense. However, if a suspect is already manufacturing drugs and police pose as buyers to catch him, then entrapment usually has not occurred.

I said I would be back.  ;) As we sometimes do when reading and thinking about certain things while investigating we have relied on our own personal experiences. My experiences in real life help me to understand the sting operation vs. entrapment aspect more than just having an understanding of it by reading alone. I have real life experiences in police stings, corruption/coercion, and police being on my side and others in my known profession.

I am giving some examples of corruption/coercion, stings, and police being on my side. I am not going to go into great detail but I will give enough for people to understand what is allowed in a sting operation. I also said before that I learned how to improve my thinking skills and learned how to avoid bad situations more and more. When you want to catch a criminal you have to think like a criminal. 8-)

Examples based on real life experiences.
Sting Operations-

Early 1980’s when I was working in Anaheim California on the streets. It used to be a common practice for working girls to assume that if we asked an undercover police officer if they were a cop and they said no that would help us to determine whether we wanted to say anything more. We also used to ask the undercover to touch our breast and expose himself so we could see and touch it. Some how we thought that was good enough. :?

I found out the hard way that isn’t the case when it comes to a sting operation. Sometimes the undercover would pose as a cab driver with a customer in the back also undercover. The cab driver would pull up and I assumed the guy was legit because he was in a cab. I got in, solicited, and was drove right to the police station. When I got inside I saw alot of other girls in that sting operation round up. That one was actually funny that I fell for it.

Sometimes the undercover would say he needed time to think it over after he touched me and I him, exchanged conversation of how much and what for. The undercover would drive off and then afterwards I was watched, was allowed to get into another car and was soon arrested by a patrol car. I was taken out of the car and I had no idea who was the cop, was it the guy I talked to earlier or this guy who’s car I was pulled from? :?

Sting operations-

Early 1990’s when I was working in Waikiki Hawaii on the streets. I solicited a white undercover police officer. He had a room rented and I went to his room. It was all set up as if he was a tourist. There were souvenirs and a plane ticket on the table. Luggage in the room and the undercover acted like he had been drinking. We had discussed what the amount would be and he even payed me. He then said he wanted to take a shower.

At this time in Hawaii a lot of Japanese men were being robbed by girls when they went to take a shower. Japanese carried lots of money with them. The undercover was testing me to see if I would steal his wad of cash, I did not. I sat on the bed and waited for him to be done with his shower. He even ran the shower, came out with a towel on and wet hair. He says "Did you hear that"? I knew right then I was busted. He went to the door to act like he heard a knock, pretended to hear it again and opened the door for back up. I was arrested and 86 from the hotel. 8-)

Still early 1990’s in Waikiki another incident was an undercover I solicited and took to my room I used. He paid me and got undressed to his underwear. He layed on the bed, I reached for my condom and was about to perform the act when he grabbed my wrist. He said "You’re under arrest" and I resisted a little because how the hell do I know he isn’t lying. "I said where is your back up"? He was even shook up at that point because they had lost sight of him and it took them awhile to find my room.

When I got to the police station there were other girls arrested by the sting operation and one girl told me the cop even did the deed. He had sex with her, finished and then arrested her. Now this is the corruption aspect. It also is the part when the cop crossed the moral aspect of the sting. This is the tricky part. Lies are allowed and so is how far each officer goes for the most proof they can have but it crosses over then to a moral decision on how far they take it.

Corruption and coercion-

Early 1980’s in Chula Vista California a murder happened to a girl I knew. I had just seen her the night before and used her room. She was also from Portland where I am from. I was out working in the day when 2 undercover’s  pulled up and I solicited them. They then told me they were cops and if I didn’t cooperate with the investigation of the murder I would be charged with prostitution. I said "Where is your back up and I am not going anywhere until I see the police in a car in uniform".

I do not trust men when it comes to them saying they are the police acting as undercover. Many girls have been tricked and killed because of that. After the police in uniform showed up I said "I will go but I am not going alone". So they were going to round up more girls anyways to question them about the girl who got killed so I said "How about her"? The girl came over and we went to the station to talk.

Early 1990’s and late 1990’s Waikiki Hawaii
Corruption-

Sometimes the uniformed police would be called to situations that went bad. In one case the police showed up because the guys me and my friend were with ended up freaking out. They tried to kill us. One held my throat and broke my friend’s elbow at the same time with a karate move. He also pulled a large kitchen knife out. He called 911 to report a robbery but wasn’t giving the info fast enough or correctly. I had to think fast and I screamed the address out so the 911 operator would send help ASAP.

They were about to lead us out the door when the guy who did all the damage to my friends elbow opened the door and the HPD was there. HPD are mostly local Hawaiians and some Samoans. These guys are huge. So we went back into the room. We were being questioned. I explained to the police what happened and why these guys weren’t happy. The HPD said "Where's the money they paid you"?  I gave up my money and she gave up hers. We all were arrested. The guys were charged with terrorist threatening because of the knife. We were charged with theft. The police kept the money. We had the charges dropped because the guys didn’t want to come back for court. They were Asian and most likely involved in gang activity. I dealt with a lot of Japanese Yakuza. The HPD took my money on more than one occasion.

Police corruption and coercion-

Early 1990’s Waikiki Hawaii. The rookies who graduate were sent to the streets in packs. They were to patrol on foot and stop working girls and card I.D. them. They had cards that they wrote physical descriptions and actual name identification. Some time passed by, one night I was out working and a guy in a car pulls over. I thought he looked familiar but I couldn’t remember where I knew him from. I said "Have we been together before"? He says "Yes". So I figured that’s how I knew his face. I got in his car. He started driving and instantly grabs my left wrist and says "Where is ……"?

He was referring to my friend I walked with a lot. I instantly recognized him after he said that. He was one of the rookie cops who I.D. me. I said "I won’t say anything to anyone just let me out". He didn’t and kept hold of my wrist and drove faster. We were heading towards ala wai blvd. When you come to that light there is only one way to turn and that is left. There is one lane turning left and so when he turned he would be closest to the curb on ala wai blvd. I grabbed his steering wheel as he turned causing the car to swerve close to the curb. I then opened the door and jumped out as he pulled off. His car was close to a light pole. The door dinged the pole. I ran to the hotel close on the corner and called 911.

Police that do the right thing-
Continuing from above

The police came. I gave them my story. They talked to me for a long time. They checked the pole. They had me pick out the rookie from a photo line up. They went to his house, found the ding on his door and arrested him for drinking and driving. They believed my story because all the evidence added up. They told me not to worry they would handle it internally. He was fired.

Police that do the right thing-
Murder

Early 1990’s. One girl I knew was murdered in Waikiki. I had just spoke to the guy she ended up going with who took her life. I believe he decided not to go with me because of my height. He was way shorter than me and he had looked me up and down when we talked. I figure he was sizing me up and wondering could he over power me. I was the last person to see her go with the guy. Later on in the night I went to a corner and one of my friends says "The police are at your hotel you use and …..has been killed".

I went to the hotel and found my roommate and her roommate there. They were the ones who found her. We were interviewed. I was interviewed more because I had to describe him being that I spoke to him and saw him go with her right before she was killed. I ended up getting pregnant with my daughter in early 1993 and flew home to have her. The police finally caught the guy in late 1993 because he tried to murder another working girl only she was stronger and fought him. She made so much noise that other people in the hotel called 911. After I had just had my daughter in October the investigators called my house and wanted me to fly there and testify. I explained I couldn’t because I had a newborn. They were still able to convict him.

So those are only a small example of what I have experienced when it comes to sting operations, corruption, and coercion. The undercovers only set up the scene in which I would have already committed the act of prostitution. They did not solicit me first.  They only acted like a potential customer. They may have said hi and what’s up but I did all the talking about money and acts involved. They only agreed with me. Entrapment didn't apply because I was already committing a crime anyways so no coercion/pressure.

I understand this is a totally different situation but in the end a sting operation follows similar rules when catching crooks. That is why the corpse can be used and no entrapment. The people involved in a sting operation can use lies/deception to catch people already committing crimes. They can stage a scene with a corpse as part of the act in the deception. Entrapment would not apply because no one coerced/pressured anyone to commit crimes they already were committing. As TS said the hoax forums avoid entrapment by the clues left because the fact is that anyone could have figured out MJ wasn't dead if they really wanted to.
8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 23, 2011, 02:54:22 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMB5gfcVChg
[youtube:2fo66d5h]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMB5gfcVChg[/youtube:2fo66d5h]


Thank you for the video. Me no paghle de France, but of course I got it. Such a melodic language, I love it.  So, the amb. is apparently not the same that was in June 25 and not the one I saw last week at 100 N. Carolwood, it has no E71 on th front; windows are not tinted. It is possible that one of the vehicles windows were tinted for June 25th.
 Conclusion, the 71 station has several ambulance and fire vehicles with 71, E 71number on all of them, in case if they have a few emergency calls at the same time, so they would have enough vehicles to serve, since the Beverly Hills/Bel Air area is pretty big.
The guy is handsome, he resembels  Alain Delon.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 23, 2011, 06:27:21 AM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMB5gfcVChg
[youtube:sz60onw6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMB5gfcVChg[/youtube:sz60onw6]


Thank you for the video. Me no paghle de France, but of course I got it. Such a melodic language, I love it.  So, the amb. is apparently not the same that was in June 25 and not the one I saw last week at 100 N. Carolwood, it has no E71 on th front; windows are not tinted. It is possible that one of the vehicles windows were tinted for June 25th.
 Conclusion, the 71 station has several ambulance and fire vehicles with 71, E 71number on all of them, in case if they have a few emergency calls at the same time, so they would have enough vehicles to serve, since the Beverly Hills/Bel Air area is pretty big.
The guy is handsome, he resembels  Alain Delon.

He works with Twiggy from MJHOAXlive.........T&T..T'S..for a while there, I thought Twiggy and Tristan were behind TS..

Anyway, very interesting theory Souza, and apparently, that lady at the corner, is Linda, from Star Maps...AND guess what.????

She is a believer as well...at least now she is.  She said there was some wierd stuff going down that day....this is the video from twiggys site:

And I found this video....interesting angle on things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTWKS87CwBg&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTWKS87CwBg&NR=1)
[youtube:sz60onw6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTWKS87CwBg&NR=1[/youtube:sz60onw6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GC2XvM6 ... dded#at=38 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GC2XvM62rk&feature=player_embedded#at=38)
[youtube:sz60onw6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GC2XvM62rk&feature=player_embedded#at=38[/youtube:sz60onw6]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 23, 2011, 07:36:09 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
In the tourbus video there is something weird that chappie pointed out to me on the phone. At the end there is this lady on the corner of the street that is on the phone: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a ... ce-de_news (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a_michael-jackson-depart-ambulance-de_news). Someone on the bus mentions that she is a big MJ fan. So WHY is she there? The ambulance has been in the house for ages, with the fire truck outside. Being a big MJ fan, she must have known it was Michael's house, so why didn't she go there to check out what happened? Apparently she also didn't call other fans, because the street is empty.

The lady in the Dailymotion tourist tour bus video may be Linda.
She's standing at the Starmaps stand - however it's not her selling the maps IMO.
She appears to be quite upset as she's wiping her tears away and is heavily gesticulating.
She's already talking to somebody else therefore not being in the position to answer any questions.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pd4a_michael-jackson-depart-ambulance-de_news

Is it the same Linda who appeared in the OVGuide video #1, so said to be connected to "Star Flight Tours"?
[attachment=2:1kmz82y2]200901_p1_Linda.jpg[/attachment:1kmz82y2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdLON-hvsHM

I didn't find any company "Star Flight Tours" in the web.
There's only "Starline Tours", the company TMZ started a cooperation with for Hollywood tours:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=173&t=18506&p=318401#p318237


Second interesting detail from the OVGuide's videos:
they were published in January, March and May 2009 on youtube.com and ovguide.com like a series of a home reality movie.

January 2009:
[youtube:1kmz82y2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdLON-hvsHM[/youtube:1kmz82y2]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdLON-hvsHM

March 2009:
[youtube:1kmz82y2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yN9eGKUkhs[/youtube:1kmz82y2]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yN9eGKUkhs

May 2009:
[youtube:1kmz82y2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM8AWX2z-Go[/youtube:1kmz82y2]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM8AWX2z-Go


Third interesting detail:
a different (real?) Starmaps lady appears in video #2, wearing a "Starmaps" branded T-Shirt.
[attachment=1:1kmz82y2]200903_p2_maingate_starmapslady2.jpg[/attachment:1kmz82y2]


Forth interesting detail:
on "another day", there are only 5 garbage bins out there,
[attachment=0:1kmz82y2]200903_p2_maingate_garbage3.jpg[/attachment:1kmz82y2]

not 13 bins as on June 25 (4 black, 2 blue, 3 green, 1 blue, 3 green).
Another fan took pictures in 2010 and 7 garbage bins were put out on the street, then (despite the house was "empty").

Different colours of garbage bins would usually mean different content and purpose of picking up the garbage - different trucks arriving, one for the blue ones, one for the black ones, one for the green ones. Does it then make sense to place the bins sorted by colour? I'd say yes. Does it make sense to put a blue one in the middle of green ones? Not really except one doesn't care.
I think we may safely assume that on that specific date someone cared about the scenery.

There was some intention putting the bins out on that day.
It was the wrong day anyway. If I recall right, collection is on Wednesday not on Thursday in that area. So either the movie was filmed on a Wednesday, June 24 e.g. and the bins were out on the right day, or the bins were out on the wrong day and we probably would have heard some neighbours complaining about this.

There was some intention putting 13 bins out.
We know that symbolism is playing a key role in this disappearance.

Quote
Symbolic Meaning of Number Thirteen

The symbolic meaning of number thirteen receives a shady interpretation in Norse myth, when an honorary banquet was held in Valhalla for Baldur (god of nobility, redemption and admirable strength) among other twelve Norse gods. Loki (the trickster) came to the banquet as the uninvited thirteenth guest. Afterwards, we learn Baldur was slain by Höðr who, to execute the god, was given a magic spear by Loki.

Similarly, the darker symbolism of thirteen continues in its Christian association with the Last Supper. Twelve disciples and the Christ, formed a group of thirteen to share the last meal. Here, thirteen is seen as a foreboding omen as we learn of Christ’s fate after the gathering.

In the same vein, Friday the thirteenth is commonly reviled as it was said the Last Supper in the upper room took place on a Friday. Further, Friday 13th in 1307 was the date on which the assembly of the Knights Templar were systematically assasinated.

In the guest company scenarios we can point to Judas or Loki as the thirteenth figures and so deem the association of the number thirteen as unlucky.

However, one may also consider the opposite, and recognize the enlightened guests, Christ and Baldur as the thirteenth entities. This brings about a heightened perception of the number and lends symbolism of:

    * Ascension
    * Resurrection
    * Enlightenment

In ancient Greece Zeus was counted as the thirteenth, and most powerful god. Here the associations of Zeus give the number thirteen symbolic meanings such as:

    * Totality
    * Completion
    * Power
    * Realization
    * Attainment

The symbolism of thirteen comes into play when we learn of Osiris (the Egyptian god of life, death and powerful solar symbol) was murdered by his brother Typhon. Isis, Osiris’ wife and sister collected his body with intent to restore Osiris back to life.

However, Typhon stole Osiris’ body and cut it into fourteen pieces and scattered them about the earth. Isis continued her quest to revive her beloved, but could only reclaim thirteen of the fourteen body parts (the fourteenth part being Osiris’ penis which interestingly fell into the Nile and was eaten by a school of fish which are also symbolic).

This tale symbolically implies that the meaning of number thirteen is the precursor to completion.

Also in Egypt, there are thirteen steps upon the ladder that leads to eternity. Upon the thirteenth step it is said the soul reaches the source of itself and attains spiritual completion.

There are thirteen moons in a calendar year. As such, the symbolic meaning of number thirteen deals with moon associations such as:

    * Femininity
    * Magic
    * Psyche
    * Emotion

From a numerological perspective, we first recognize the presence of the three. Symbolic meaning of number three is vast and powerful. At its simples, the symbolic meaning of the number three deals with:

    * Creation
    * Completion
    * Order
    * Advancement
    * Mystery

We then recognize the presence of the number one, which precedes the number three. This amplifies the preexisting symbolic meaning of the number one, which deals with:

    * Beginnings
    * Initiation
    * Solidarity
    * Unity
    * Birth

Singly, these individual number meanings put together tell a story of a path that is just beginning (number one), and will lead to greatness in the expression of the union of opposites (number three).

Adding and reducing the single numbers, is a common practice in numerology. Do this, we receive another symbolic meaning of the number thirteen. To wit: 1+3=4. Fours lend a grounding effect to the high-pitch energy of 13. The energy of number four brings the thirteen down to a level where we can begin to rationalize its meaning more clearly. The reduction to four is a message that at its core, the thirteen is a means to an end and this numeric energy will always return us to the calm root or source which is ultimately our cosmic home.

In a deeper numerological perspective, thirteen can be considered the fulfillment or manifestation of the number three.

It is also important to note the number thirteen is a prime number and is only divisibly by itself. This is symbolic of:

    * Incorruptible nature
    * Purity
    * Integrity

In the language of the Tarot, the number thirteen is represented in the Death card, which is symbolic of:

    * Transition
    * Change
    * Inevitability
http://www.whats-your-sign.com/number-thirteen.html

All of that IMO speaks for a final "move-out" of "the house" Michael was living in up to this date, a final full-stop, a major change and a new start.
Therefore, yes, why leave that major and most important change to "no body" or a dummy?
I support that it was Michael in the ambulance but I doubt he did the ride from Carolwood to UCLA on June 25.


The most clear video material of the heli rides originated from KABC and it was copied by / sold to other TV stations.
We remember Michael Jackson, the legendary radio commentator on KABC who lended his Hollywood star to "our" Michael on June 25, 2009.
Quote
Death of Michael Jackson, the recording artist
Shortly after the death of the pop star of the same name on June 25, 2009, the singer's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame was blocked off due to the premiere of the film Brüno at nearby Grauman's Chinese Theatre. Fans of the late singer started a makeshift memorial at the star belonging to Jackson the radio personality instead. In response, the commentator stated on his website: "I am willingly loan[ing] it to him and, if it would bring him back, he can have it. He was a real star. Sinatra, Presley, The Beatles and Michael Jackson."[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson_%28radio_commentator%29

Michael and Michael knew each other - see this interview:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-morrison31-2009oct31,0,1462693.column

For initiating an avalanche with prepared material, you only need one good snowball thrown out into the media wilderness. And this is those participating in preparing a snowball and the consecutive avalanche:
- a photographer (like Ben)
- a movie crew (like Ben, maybe a KABC crew, maybe a Culver City crew)
- some actors (see lifetime contracts for dancers etc.)
- some spider sitting in the middle of the media net "leaking" the prepared material through their network to the right "diffusers" like press agencies (TMZ for web, twitter and us, established news agencies like AP, AFP etc. for print and TV to get the media hooked and following and that's it).

If you want an avalanche to take the direction you wish, the snowball must be of the required size, must be round to start rolling, have the right temperature and the right ground covered with snow and the snowball must be thrown into the right direction.
All of these elements were well known by Michael.
For this scenery, you don't really need "live" material when having the right people in the right places.
For the sake of steering accuracy of the desired outcome, it is better to use prepared material than to leave the most important initiator and catalyst to coincidance. (Be it a personal or a "higher impact" project - both intentions require the same dedication when such a change dimension is mandatory.)

We were not provided a full, consecutive footage from Carolwood Dr to UCLA, but only one scene here, another there, one from Ben's perspective, one from a so-said tourist's perspective.

Like in every good movie, the gaps were filled by our own perception, imagination and interpretation (that's where illusion starts). That's where suspense is being created because we don't know what will happen next; we expect something but we are not quite clear if it will be like the scene we assume to come next. Add individual levels of emotional shock, despair and distress and voilà: a full novel story is born out of only a few elements thrown in.

Elements (Each element standing alone as a dot. Us connecting the elements in an individual way doesn't mean they were connected like that as to location, date, sequence, reality vs. fiction etc. E.g. Michael might have arrived at UCLA but not left Carolwood that day if you get me. Sunset Blvd being so empty at noon may mean it was not a business day when the video was taken or the blvd was blocked for taking the video etc.):
- (Prepared) footage of ambulance leaving Carolwood mansion (Hollywood TV, fed by Ben).

- (Prepared) ambulance pictures (E-Online, fed by Ben).

- The photos of Michael arriving at UCLA were real but calculated in the storybook.
(X17-Online reporters?)

- The footage of Michael's family arriving at UCLA were real but calculated in the storybook.

- The footage of fans gathering at UCLA was part of the avalanche, too, and didn't need to be prepared. It was calculated to happen and to be covered by several TV stations.

- Two "explaining" videos with Ben, one from a Norwegian TV station (likely to have been prepared too).

- Contradicting and confusing statements from family, friends, "close sources" - giving their perception, imagination, reality, thoughts, being part of the avalanche and being calculated / initiated as such.

- Memorial - a big show that was contradictory in itself - calculated and prepared to further the avalanche.

- Funeral - another show that was again contradictory in itself - calculated and prepared to further the avalanche.

- Following document "leakages": "contracts", "AR", "FBI files" etc. (how convenient that all of that was inconspicious except that Michael was pictured again as a druggie, incapable, weak, unresponsive character - so nothing new actually in the public / foe's eye, right?) - all of that to keep the ball running, get bigger and more trustworthy superficially.


UCLA is a new building and had its opening only 1 year ahead of Michael's disappearance.
Moving a hospital - "This Is It", Harold Levay, MD on June 29, 2008:
[youtube:1kmz82y2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKA_nQk15AY[/youtube:1kmz82y2]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKA_nQk15AY

There's plenty of video material dated from 2008 about UCLA inside out.
Even public faced an "open house" day before moving the patients in.
Thus, enough opportunity to investigate the building from head to toe without somebody getting suspicious about it and enough infrastructural details being published in 2008 to "know" about the necessary.
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/ronald-reagan-ucla-medical-center-52446.aspx

This is the LASD chopper "dry run" on UCLA's west helipad in 2008:
(http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2008-06/40216399.jpg)
Subtitle:
Quote
A Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department helicopter pilot prepares to land on the new medical center's helipad during a dry run.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=653263
Koinkidance: exactly the same chopper N95ODF which would pick up MJ on June 25, 2009.
...
Were we talking prepared material already?  ;)

IMO Michael either left UCLA via the parking garage or via the second small helicopter on the eastern helipad of UCLA which would be both a pretty easy illusion trick to play it safe.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 23, 2011, 08:26:52 AM
Quote from: "Its her"
This may seem off topic, but it is not. If MJ really is trying to open our eyes to the NWO, this completely debunks the possibility of him co-operating with someone who will be an assisted suicide. "Assisted Suicide" is NWO DOUBLE-SPEAK for, "Deceive, Drug and Dispatch". It has been, and IS done in hospitals in various places for years, and only because of the few awake and aware, disrupting their plans with court action, has it evolved into legislation to permit this "legally".

This is a complete different topic and I don't think we should discuss that in here, but I don't agree. I do not know what makes it so scary in the US, but here in Holland, someone who is terminally ill and in great pain can choose to end his or her own life before they become too sick. A doctor administers the medication and it's done in a very humane way. Those people do not have to jump in front of a train or take millions of pills with the risk of being pumped, they can die with dignity with their loved ones around them. A person should be able to have that choice. If this was a big NWO plan, it would have been legal in the US and they would even have ads on TV for it. It isn't.

Like I said, totally different discussion, but I advise you to watch a Dutch movie: "Simon" which deals with this topic.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 23, 2011, 09:12:36 AM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
I haven't changed my mind on the corpse being used but, I am providing evidence for those who want to go with the theory of no body used and it is all a movie theory.

I use to watch the show North Mission Road. I realize they use actors in the reinactment of the episodes but these shows are based on real cases. If you read the wiki on Los Angeles Coroner it will give you the names of who is in charge of who. That could also explain who a key person is at the coroner office when it comes to being the few in on it. This still could mean a corpse was used for the other people not in on it. Those who the sting operation was meant to catch and take down.;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Mission_Road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Mission_Road)
Quote
North Mission Road is a documentary style show on truTV that details "unique and compelling" cases of the Los Angeles County Coroner Department. The name of the show is based on the road on which the office of the Los Angeles County Coroner is located.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_County_Coroner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_County_Coroner)
Quote
The Los Angeles County Department of Coroner was created in its present form in Boyle Heights on December 7, 1990 by an ordinance approved by the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors, though it has existed in some form since the late 19th century.

All physician staff is under the control of the Chief Medical Examiner-Coroner Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran M.D. while the director Anthony Hernandez has authority to manage all non-physician operations and staff under the general direction of the Board of Supervisors. It is unique in the world in that it is the only coroner's office to have an active gift shop.
http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2004/ ... sion_r.php (http://www.laobserved.com/archive/2004/10/north_mission_r.php)
Quote
'North Mission Road'
Kevin Roderick • October 15 2004 11:25 AM
That's the title of Court TV's new show based on access to the files of the Los Angeles County Coroner's morgue, located at 1104 N. Mission Road. I haven't watched the show, but a few blog entries I've seen liked it. (Here's a post I wrote last year about a visit to the morgue "service floor," as they call it.) The Mission Road offices are also the home of Skeletons in the Closet, the gift shop with a sense of humor ("for those of us of dubious distinctive taste") that sells morgue "souvenirs" and merchandise with the Los Angeles Department of Coroner brand around the world. I wrote about the shop last year for Smithsonian.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0381788/epcast (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0381788/epcast)

[youtube:3qaa4kn5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChlKQR612n4[/youtube:3qaa4kn5]

I will be back to give an explanation of why a corpse would not cause an entrapment issue. I will explain the difference when it comes to sting operations, when it involves corruption and the need to make it as real as possible when taking down those already committing crimes. 8-)

I still believe a corpse was used too. And you explained it all so well Im_convinced. ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 23, 2011, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
I said I would be back.  ;) As we sometimes do when reading and thinking about certain things while investigating we have relied on our own personal experiences. My experiences in real life help me to understand the sting operation vs. entrapment aspect more than just having an understanding of it by reading alone. I have real life experiences in police stings, corruption/coercion, and police being on my side and others in my known profession.

I am giving some examples of corruption/coercion, stings, and police being on my side. I am not going to go into great detail but I will give enough for people to understand what is allowed in a sting operation. I also said before that I learned how to improve my thinking skills and learned how to avoid bad situations more and more. When you want to catch a criminal you have to think like a criminal. 8-)

Examples based on real life experiences.
Sting Operations-

Early 1980’s when I was working in Anaheim California on the streets. It used to be a common practice for working girls to assume that if we asked an undercover police officer if they were a cop and they said no that would help us to determine whether we wanted to say anything more. We also used to ask the undercover to touch our breast and expose himself so we could see and touch it. Some how we thought that was good enough. :?

I found out the hard way that isn’t the case when it comes to a sting operation. Sometimes the undercover would pose as a cab driver with a customer in the back also undercover. The cab driver would pull up and I assumed the guy was legit because he was in a cab. I got in, solicited, and was drove right to the police station. When I got inside I saw alot of other girls in that sting operation round up. That one was actually funny that I fell for it.

Sometimes the undercover would say he needed time to think it over after he touched me and I him, exchanged conversation of how much and what for. The undercover would drive off and then afterwards I was watched, was allowed to get into another car and was soon arrested by a patrol car. I was taken out of the car and I had no idea who was the cop, was it the guy I talked to earlier or this guy who’s car I was pulled from? :?

Sting operations-

Early 1990’s when I was working in Waikiki Hawaii on the streets. I solicited a white undercover police officer. He had a room rented and I went to his room. It was all set up as if he was a tourist. There were souvenirs and a plane ticket on the table. Luggage in the room and the undercover acted like he had been drinking. We had discussed what the amount would be and he even payed me. He then said he wanted to take a shower.

At this time in Hawaii a lot of Japanese men were being robbed by girls when they went to take a shower. Japanese carried lots of money with them. The undercover was testing me to see if I would steal his wad of cash, I did not. I sat on the bed and waited for him to be done with his shower. He even ran the shower, came out with a towel on and wet hair. He says "Did you hear that"? I knew right then I was busted. He went to the door to act like he heard a knock, pretended to hear it again and opened the door for back up. I was arrested and 86 from the hotel. 8-)

Still early 1990’s in Waikiki another incident was an undercover I solicited and took to my room I used. He paid me and got undressed to his underwear. He layed on the bed, I reached for my condom and was about to perform the act when he grabbed my wrist. He said "You’re under arrest" and I resisted a little because how the hell do I know he isn’t lying. "I said where is your back up"? He was even shook up at that point because they had lost sight of him and it took them awhile to find my room.

When I got to the police station there were other girls arrested by the sting operation and one girl told me the cop even did the deed. He had sex with her, finished and then arrested her. Now this is the corruption aspect. It also is the part when the cop crossed the moral aspect of the sting. This is the tricky part. Lies are allowed and so is how far each officer goes for the most proof they can have but it crosses over then to a moral decision on how far they take it.

Corruption and coercion-

Early 1980’s in Chula Vista California a murder happened to a girl I knew. I had just seen her the night before and used her room. She was also from Portland where I am from. I was out working in the day when 2 undercover’s  pulled up and I solicited them. They then told me they were cops and if I didn’t cooperate with the investigation of the murder I would be charged with prostitution. I said "Where is your back up and I am not going anywhere until I see the police in a car in uniform".

I do not trust men when it comes to them saying they are the police acting as undercover. Many girls have been tricked and killed because of that. After the police in uniform showed up I said "I will go but I am not going alone". So they were going to round up more girls anyways to question them about the girl who got killed so I said "How about her"? The girl came over and we went to the station to talk.

Early 1990’s and late 1990’s Waikiki Hawaii
Corruption-

Sometimes the uniformed police would be called to situations that went bad. In one case the police showed up because the guys me and my friend were with ended up freaking out. They tried to kill us. One held my throat and broke my friend’s elbow at the same time with a karate move. He also pulled a large kitchen knife out. He called 911 to report a robbery but wasn’t giving the info fast enough or correctly. I had to think fast and I screamed the address out so the 911 operator would send help ASAP.

They were about to lead us out the door when the guy who did all the damage to my friends elbow opened the door and the HPD was there. HPD are mostly local Hawaiians and some Samoans. These guys are huge. So we went back into the room. We were being questioned. I explained to the police what happened and why these guys weren’t happy. The HPD said "Where's the money they paid you"?  I gave up my money and she gave up hers. We all were arrested. The guys were charged with terrorist threatening because of the knife. We were charged with theft. The police kept the money. We had the charges dropped because the guys didn’t want to come back for court. They were Asian and most likely involved in gang activity. I dealt with a lot of Japanese Yakuza. The HPD took my money on more than one occasion.

Police corruption and coercion-

Early 1990’s Waikiki Hawaii. The rookies who graduate were sent to the streets in packs. They were to patrol on foot and stop working girls and card I.D. them. They had cards that they wrote physical descriptions and actual name identification. Some time passed by, one night I was out working and a guy in a car pulls over. I thought he looked familiar but I couldn’t remember where I knew him from. I said "Have we been together before"? He says "Yes". So I figured that’s how I knew his face. I got in his car. He started driving and instantly grabs my left wrist and says "Where is ……"?

He was referring to my friend I walked with a lot. I instantly recognized him after he said that. He was one of the rookie cops who I.D. me. I said "I won’t say anything to anyone just let me out". He didn’t and kept hold of my wrist and drove faster. We were heading towards ala wai blvd. When you come to that light there is only one way to turn and that is left. There is one lane turning left and so when he turned he would be closest to the curb on ala wai blvd. I grabbed his steering wheel as he turned causing the car to swerve close to the curb. I then opened the door and jumped out as he pulled off. His car was close to a light pole. The door dinged the pole. I ran to the hotel close on the corner and called 911.

Police that do the right thing-
Continuing from above

The police came. I gave them my story. They talked to me for a long time. They checked the pole. They had me pick out the rookie from a photo line up. They went to his house, found the ding on his door and arrested him for drinking and driving. They believed my story because all the evidence added up. They told me not to worry they would handle it internally. He was fired.

Police that do the right thing-
Murder

Early 1990’s. One girl I knew was murdered in Waikiki. I had just spoke to the guy she ended up going with who took her life. I believe he decided not to go with me because of my height. He was way shorter than me and he had looked me up and down when we talked. I figure he was sizing me up and wondering could he over power me. I was the last person to see her go with the guy. Later on in the night I went to a corner and one of my friends says "The police are at your hotel you use and …..has been killed".

I went to the hotel and found my roommate and her roommate there. They were the ones who found her. We were interviewed. I was interviewed more because I had to describe him being that I spoke to him and saw him go with her right before she was killed. I ended up getting pregnant with my daughter in early 1993 and flew home to have her. The police finally caught the guy in late 1993 because he tried to murder another working girl only she was stronger and fought him. She made so much noise that other people in the hotel called 911. After I had just had my daughter in October the investigators called my house and wanted me to fly there and testify. I explained I couldn’t because I had a newborn. They were still able to convict him.

So those are only a small example of what I have experienced when it comes to sting operations, corruption, and coercion. The undercovers only set up the scene in which I would have already committed the act of prostitution. They did not solicit me first.  They only acted like a potential customer. They may have said hi and what’s up but I did all the talking about money and acts involved. They only agreed with me. Entrapment didn't apply because I was already committing a crime anyways so no coercion/pressure.

I understand this is a totally different situation but in the end a sting operation follows similar rules when catching crooks. That is why the corpse can be used and no entrapment. The people involved in a sting operation can use lies/deception to catch people already committing crimes. They can stage a scene with a corpse as part of the act in the deception. Entrapment would not apply because no one coerced/pressured anyone to commit crimes they already were committing. As TS said the hoax forums avoid entrapment by the clues left because the fact is that anyone could have figured out MJ wasn't dead if they really wanted to.
8-)

Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing these with us. Great info.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: loyalfan on April 23, 2011, 03:01:05 PM
great thread...xxxx
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Lemonbread904 on April 23, 2011, 09:13:00 PM
I think that by us investigating more into this CASE, we begin to re-educate ourselves about our government and the different depts of the government and how they are ran as well as the laws in which are often enough bend to a certain extent. We all know that the entire CASE is surrounding "The Death of Michael Jackson", we the people would like to know from our government what went down on that infamous day. From the very beginning of this CASE, I know that the pieces were not falling into place.  Heard pieces of info about control substance drugs (DEA), then you have the FBI involved as well as probably the FDA and let us not forget to mention INTERPOL. So what we have heard so far are different Organizations as well as Agencies are brougt in on a Prominent Figure's Death. And this CASE just so happens to be in the state of California, where there are a  lot of cases of abusing controlled substances. I do not know if you guys are aware or not but in the last couple of years, there has been a lot of turmoil regarding the illegal drug trafficking coming from Mexico into the Uniteds States especially in the state of Arizona.  Guys, when you get the opportunity please read up on what is going on with the State-by-State fight in the trafficking of illegal presciption drugs. Guys, I got to tell you. I have been reading  the posts and threads here on this forum in regards to  sting operations and I think this is something verrrrrrry big. You can probably say that it involves National Security. There is something going on in D.C. that's very big.  Let us all look at the BIG PICTURE. We have the illegal trafficing of prescription drugs crossing the border, which of course involves money laundering, identity theft, as well as corruption in the government, but we do not know at what level. We have a state in which the budget in a big mess. And this is the state in which the people especially celebrities  are often in the spotlight for the illegal use of prescription drugs. You got people in law that are trying to pad non-existent evidence to convict an innocent man( Michael of course).  Then you had Mr. Oxman comparing Anna Nicole Smith with this case.  Again the connection is the ILLLEGAL USE OF PRESCRIPTION DRUGS as well as the ILLEGAL TRAFFICKING OF PRESCRIPTION DRUGS
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 23, 2011, 09:27:24 PM
Quote from: "Andrea"
Ok.  So I've been thinking more about your theory Souza.  Had to let it sink in.  You had mentioned earlier that maybe it was filmed in December because of the Christmas wreaths on the gate.  Combine that thought with "we have 4 years to get it right".  Combine those two with this article from TMZ.

Quote
Michael Jackson -- Alpha Male?
12/21/2008 12:26 PM PST by TMZ Staff  

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2008/12/21/1221_michael_jackson_v3-1.jpg)
Michael may be in desperate need of a lung transplant, according to Ian Halperin, author of a new M.J. bio.

Halperin claims Jacko suffers from a rare genetic disorder known as Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency, which has led to emphysema and gastrointestinal bleeding.

Halperin told In Touch Michael can barely speak and is nearly blind in his left eye.

We called MJ's reps -- nothing.
 
http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-j ... lpha-male/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-jackson-alpha-male/)

Then the very next article about Michael the very next day.

Quote
Michael Jackson's New Crib
12/22/2008 8:26 AM PST by TMZ Staff  

He's been teetering on the financial brink for years, yet we've learned somehow Michael Jackson has rented a home in one of the most exclusive areas of L.A. for a whopping $100,000 a month.

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2008/12/22/1222_jacko_launch_2-1.jpg)

The $38 million Holmby Hils pad has seven bedrooms, 13 baths, 12 fireplaces, a screening room and, of course, a cellar for Jesus juice. For sleepovers, there's a guest house, swimming pool and garden.

The deal was inked several weeks ago under a heavy-duty confidentiality agreement. Michael already has stayed there.
http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-j ... -new-crib/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-jacksons-sleeping-in-a-new-crib/)

So an article written on 12/21 at 12:26 - 911 call time and ambulance arrival time!  :shock:   And the article title calls him an "alpha male" - someone dominant and in charge.  Was the footage filmed that day then?  It could explain the Christmas wreaths and the "four years to get it right" comment as exactly 4 years after 12/21/08 is 12/21/12, the supposed EOW date.  Then the next day TMZ shows us where Michael is supposed to be living...that could explain why there was no one hanging about in the video, if it happened the day before that knowledge was made public!  With it's 7 bedrooms.  

And if that's not enough, the very next article on Michael from TMZ is this:

Quote
Michael Jackson -- The New Kevin Bacon
12/23/2008 11:05 PM PST by TMZ Staff  

Michael Jackson has not just leased a $100,000 a month mansion -- by making the deal he's created a connection with Justin Timberlake, Ed Hardy, "Baywatch" and "Dancing with the Stars."
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2008/12/24/1223_mj_hardy_house_exd_04-1.jpg)

Here's the deal. As we first reported, Jackson inked the deal for the Holmby Hills mansion several weeks ago. The place is owned by the Guez living trust, managed by Hubert Guez, a textile magnate who is the newly named CEO of Ed Hardy. Now here's where the plot thickens. Jacko made a rare public appearance last May at the 50th birthday party of Christian Audigier, the famous Ed Hardy designer.

But wait, there's more. Hubert Guez has a brother, Paul, who ran a massive textile company with him. Paul has a son, Danny, who started a clothing line with Justin Timberlake, called William Rast.

But the story isn't over. Paul's other son, David, is an actor, but he doesn't use his dad's last name. Rather, David uses his mom's maiden name -- Charvet. Yes, the same David Charvet who was on "Baywatch" and is engaged to Brooke Burke.

Kevin Bacon, eat your heart out.
http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/24/michael-j ... vin-bacon/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/24/michael-jackson-the-new-kevin-bacon/)

The article was written at 11:05...remember remember the fifth of November.  V for Vendetta shows there are no coincidences and how everything is connected...so is this article written at 11:05 showing how everyone is connected to Michael a coincidence?  :lol:  :shock:

And then!

Quote
Jacko Loves Paul -- Yeah Yeah Yeah
1/4/2009 6:00 AM PST by TMZ Staff  

Those who said Paul McCartney would only regain the rights to the Beatles catalog over Michael Jackson's dead body may have been right.

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/01/04/0104_jackson_mccartney-1.jpg)
Sources close to Jackson tell the Mirror Jacko wants to end his 24-year feud with McCartney by leaving his remaining share of the Beatles library to Paul in his will. Jacko snaked McCartney back in 1985 in a bidding war for full ownership of the roughly $700 million Lennon-McCartney songbook

If the rumors about Michael's health problems are true it might not be too much longer before McCartney can sing "Hey Jude" without paying a fee.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/01/04/jacko-lov ... yeah-yeah/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/01/04/jacko-loves-paul-yeah-yeah-yeah/)

Then TMZ refers to Michael's "dead body" when he is still alive...

The rest of the stories from then until June 25th we all know - MJ being ill, his stuff going up for auction (no it's not!), the This Is It announcement, AllGood, lawsuits and so on..

Their last mention of Michael before the cardiac arrest article was on June 19th, 7 days (inclusive) before June 25th...

Basically, is this all a big fat coincidence or a big fat hoax?  I go with hoax.  And it reinforces TMZ's involvement even more since they were heavily hinting 6 months before the hoax, although nobody would've suspected a thing then.  What I want to know is when the "other day" was.  Possibly when the ambulance scene was filmed.  Was it 6 months before June 25th?  When various media outlets were reporting Michael had 6 months to live??  Is that when the "4 years" countdown started? 12/21/08? I wonder if This Is It was already filmed at that point.  Not that I think he'll wait the full 4 years to come back, I'm still thinking it will be this year.  Ok, I'm starting to go on and on so I'll stop.  Thoughts?


WHO DIED AND MADE HIM A DOCTOR? HOW DOES HALPERING KNOW IF MICHAEL HAD LUNG PROBLEMS. UNLESS MICHEAL TOLD HIM SO HIS DEATH WOULD BE MORE BELIEVABLBE. I DON'T THINK SO... I HEARD HALPERIN IS NOT VERY NICE PERSON.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on April 23, 2011, 11:40:54 PM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011

Good eye!   :lol:

Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress.  There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other).  But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.

On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way.  Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.

And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let’s examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point).  

What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be “in on it”?  NONE!  Why?  Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be “in on”.  Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be “in on it”?  None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.

But in that case, wouldn’t people realize that it was not MJ?  Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in.  As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think.  There are several things that would tend to distract people’s attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).

We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ.  And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also?  In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it.  Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.

So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do.  But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence.  And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766}.

See also a similar but slightly different theory {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518}.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on April 23, 2011, 11:49:03 PM
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 23, 2011, 11:56:15 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:

Hopefully you don't count this as your post because then we will have to wait another week for your next post.  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 23, 2011, 11:59:29 PM
Welcome back TS. Nice to see you again. :) I would be appreciated to see the corpse theory debunked and I hope someone can also debunk why the paramedics couldn't recognize MJ and why the room was heated. If you think that these are just clues, why and what could be the reason to give these clues? And like you wrote TS, the paramedics told that they couldn't recognize Michael but noone in the hospital said something like that. But what did we hear from someone in UCLA about that day and Michael? We heard nothing. So not a surprise at all that they didn't say that it wasn't MJ. Until all of these are debunked, I still go with the corpse theory which makes perfect sense to me.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 24, 2011, 12:04:57 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:
:lol: Took some of these?

(http://www.ogunquitmaine.net/mw546.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 24, 2011, 12:17:11 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:

April 11 wasn't last week TS. That was 13 days ago. And a week has 7 days as far as I know lol.

P.S: HAPPY EASTER TO YOU and TO YOUR LOVED ONES TS. :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 24, 2011, 12:18:46 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:

Hmm. Indeed you did. Ok I stand corrected.

But I think you should answer Souza's question, what evidence do you have to back up your claim that there was an ambulance that left Carrolwood en route to UCLA on 6/25/09? Because really only Ben, his team, a couple bodyguards, and a bus full of tourists with cameras (with only one video surfacing) witnessed the alleged event. Only Ben has stated that an ambulance was there on 6/25/09, and that he followed it to UCLA. This is hearsay, and the video could be any day late spring/summer of any recent year. We have no way of knowing when the events occurred except for the word of Ben Evansted.

So I think debating the existence of a body or not is almost a bit preemptive. A complete hoax on 6/25/09, nothing to see/nothing to tell, negates the body theory, or anything (dummy/double/mj himself) completely.

Ps. HIPAA law means paramedics can't describe any patient they work on to anyone outside of a medical report. "Old frail Asian" nothing, real paramedics can't make much statements! That is enough to render this statement either a clue or just a lie, but nothing more.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yambo3003 on April 24, 2011, 12:54:13 AM
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3023/2808468566_dc22dede4b.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 24, 2011, 01:16:56 AM
But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.

So is this the last level and will this thread will keep going throughout the trial?...so I am guessing the trial will still happen.

On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way.  Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.

I am sure there is another way other then using a real corpse...and even though the FBI is involved isn't there like a law against this? (using a dead body when there is another way it could be done like using MJ, a double or nothing)

 

Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.

I also think that the paramedics would have to be in it if it was a hospice patient because there is a risk that they would know MJ faked his death if they did not recognize MJ to be the patient...and also because most people know how MJ looks like.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 24, 2011, 01:59:10 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way.  Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.

Just wondering if this statement could be the whole reason TS is getting us to do all this investigating - perhaps the hard evidence he hopes we'll come up with, actually WILL have to stand up in a court of law.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 24, 2011, 04:07:30 AM
You mean someone like Murray trying to defend himself by saying that Michael is still alive, and the court will ask where's the proof? Maybe that will be his wild card? And we will be better prepared when as Liza had said, "All hell breaks loose".

Souza! :lol:

Plus I really like your latest theory and agree about the great risks they would have taken with filming all that right on the day. (I remember them saying how MJ in recording his songs did them over and over to get it exactly.) But if true and including the great posts by Andrea of TMZ's earlier posts, this Scenario is getting more creatively deliberate all the time.
Quote
I have always found it strange that they wrapped up the rehearsals so close to the death date. That seems a tight deadline for a control freak like MJ. He wants everything perfect right? What if something was NOT recorded the way he wanted? There would have been no opportunity to reshoot. Never made sense to me. Unless of course, he fooled US as well, and TII was shot earlier with ADDITIONAL SCENES and June 25 simply never happened.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 24, 2011, 07:56:25 AM
Welcome back TS and hope you had a great Easter.......

I was googling the Coroners and the route they took, and to my surprise, found these wierd businesses surrounding the coroners office...here they are:

Michael J's :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Jack in the Box

Skeletons in the closet
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ignisaeternus on April 24, 2011, 08:52:30 AM
Glad to see you back, TS- Happy Easter to you and everyone else here!

Souza- I adore your latest theorie- What has always startled me was the limited number of papps on the scene. Wouldn't one think that if such commotion was going on at Michael Jackson's house, they would have been over there in droves?

Can you imagine them scratching their heads after the news broke: "Why weren't WE there..."

Well, if it never happened like we were shown and accepted (and really- the only basis we have is the media portrayal)-  no wonder they weren't there.

Btw: TS brought up ID the body.  If there was a body-why the whole "MJ was identified by his driver's license?"  How were correct tests (dental, DNA etc) not performed? Or if they were- they were obviously falsified.  Again- what's the point?  If we have to falsify them- that means certain key personnel is in the know- so, the real body again seems redundant.
If the  coroner etc are in the "know" there is no need for tests as there was no body.  And hence the story that the body was ID'ed by driver's license.  
What I am trying to say is the net ammount of people who are informed would be the same- so no body needed.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 24, 2011, 09:01:16 AM
Quote from: "ignisaeternus"
Or if they were- they were obviously falsified.  Again- what's the point?  If we have to falsify them- that means certain key personnel is in the know- so, the real body again seems redundant.
If the  coroner etc are in the "know" there is no need for tests as there was no body.

I am not too sure if this is right but I think only the Coroner makes a report so if the report was falsified then only the Coroner would know (TS said;  Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner). Like you said if the Coroner was involved there would be no need for the tests...so I think it would just of been made up but with things that related to MJ, like TS said to do with the recognition factor;
The power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 24, 2011, 10:40:40 AM
Unfortunately, the white bodybag is regularly used, and they tie up the ends....they can also contain black stripes and handles for easier lifting of the corpse..
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 24, 2011, 10:48:11 AM
You all will get sick of me always saying that I think Michael had a dying double.  But...I do.  If he'd been ill a long time, he would'nt look like Michael anymore.  Have YOU seen people taken off life support or on it a long time (with oxygen to keep them alive)?  I have.  Once off...they are unrecognizable.
  Plus, this theory isn't as emotionally grotesque, it actually places Michael in a role once again as caring.  
I wonder if the Michael ID, well, if someone didn't look familiar and had to be ID'd, and handed any ID, who's to say it isn't him?  They were at the home that was suppose to be his.  His family was there.  They said it was him.  So, anyone but the person to do intensive printing or the such, would just take it to be him because of all these reasons.
I also think that by doing that it allows Michael to travel as a double.  He could change himself somewhat and just let people believe he's an impersonator.  The world thinks he's dead.  What a joke on them.  We all make so much of his doubles, now he could really be one of them.
Far fetched?  Well, isn't the entire hoax?  We've sure came up with a lot worse.
Tell me TS this wouldn't be a great plot!!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 24, 2011, 10:52:17 AM
Today is resurrection Sunday, TS back .. :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 24, 2011, 10:55:49 AM
Quote from: "paula-c"
Today is resurrection Sunday, TS back .. :lol:

I've been waiting, I figured we'd get Michael or TS today :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Sarahli on April 24, 2011, 03:02:47 PM
If there was a hospice patient on life support in the room then what do we do with the statement about the room being heated? What would be the need to do that? And who turned off the medical devices?  

Also I'm thinking about the ambulance picture. Everydoby recognizes that it is Michael, so isn't it a dangerous move to release such a picture if some people saw the dead body of someone else?  It is like giving them an "opportunity" to realize that it is not the same person  :? now I don't know if this could trigger bad consequences for the hoax.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MissG on April 24, 2011, 03:36:01 PM
Quote from: "Sarahli"
If there was a hospice patient on life support in the room then what do we do with the statement about the room being heated? What would be the need to do that? And who turned off the medical devices?  

Have you read the Allegory of Merlin?

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/merlin.html (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/merlin.html)

A King intending to conquer a mighty people prepared himself against them for war, and when he would get upon a horseback, he commanded one of his soldiers to give him a cup of water which he mightily loved.

The soldier answered and said, "My lord, what is this water you ask for?"

And the King said, "The water which I long for is a water which I love, and also the water loves me above all things".

Then considering, he went and brought it, and the King getting it drunk, drank again till all his members were filled, and all his veins inflamed, and he was much discoloured.

Then the soldier spoke to him, "My lord, see the horse here and if you please get upon his back".

However the king answered, "I can not".

But the soldier said "For what reason can you not".

And he answered, "I find myself heavy, and my head aches, and I fancy all my members divide themselves from one another. Therefore I command you that you do bring me into a light chamber, which must be in a warm and dry place, then I shall sweat and the water will be dried in me, and also I will be freed from it".

And they did as he commanded them, and the time being over they opened the chamber and found him most dead. But his relations went presently to the Alexandrine and Egyptian physicians, and brought them to him and told them what had happened to the King. When they had seen him, they said that without doubt he might be delivered from it.

Then they asked "Who is the Master among you?"

And the Alexandrines answered "We if you please".

But the Egyptians said "We are Masters if you please and we will be it, for we are more ancient than you, also we seem to be younger".

To which the Alexandrines consented.

Then the said Masters did take the King and cut him in very small pieces, grinding these. Then they did mix them with their moistening medicines a little, then they put him also prepared into his chamber in a warm temperate place as before for a day and a night. When this was done, they did take him half-dead, but having yet a little life, and seeing this the King's relations said, "Ach the King is dead".

To which the physicians answered, "He is not dead, do not make a noise as he sleeps".

Now they did take him again and washed him with sweet waters so often till the least of the medicinal waters went off. Then they mixed him again with new medicine and put him again in his place as before, and when they did take him out they found him quite dead.

Then his relations did exclaim, "The King is dead".

To which the physicians did answer "We killed him for the reason that after his resurrection and the Day of Judgement he may become stronger and more powerful in this world as he was before".

When the relations did hear this, they fancied they were impostors, and then taking from them their medicines they forced them to leave the kingdom. When this was over, they deliberated together what should be done with the dead poisoned body, and they concluded that they should bury him that his stink might bring no damage.

When the Alexandrine physicians did hear this, they came and said, "Do not bury him, for if you please, we will make him better and more powerful than before".

The relations began to scorn them saying, "Will you impose on us also as the others have done? And if you do not perfect what you promise you shall not evade our hands".

To which the physicians consented, and they did take the dead king, as the others hath left him and grinding him they washed him well till nothing remained of the others medicines, then they did dry him. Then they did take of salt armoniac one part, and two parts of Alexandrine Nitre. This they did mix with the powder of the dead King. Then they did make a paste of it with linseed oil, and put it into a chamber, made like a perforated crucible, and under the hole they put another clean crucible. There they left him for one hour, then they covered it with fire blowing till all was melted into the other crucible, descending through the hole. Then the King, also brought from dead to life, cried out "Where are the enemies. Let them know that I will kill them, if they do not obey me immediately".

When they heard this they came before him saying "My Lord, we are ready to obey all your commandments", and from that hour all kings and neighbours did fear him, and when they would see his wonders, they put one ounce of washed mercury into a crucible and projected upon it as much as a grain of linseed of his hairs, nails or blood. When they blowed gently the coals, then they left him to cool, and they found a stone which I know. Of this stone they projected a little upon purified Saturn and presently its form was altered as I know of which afterwards. They put one part upon ten of Venus and it would be all of one goodness and colour. And by another way they did take the said stone powdered and mixed him with salt and Sol as before, and melted him and projected the said dissolved salts into goat's cream, and then it grows good for all things.

Brother, keep secret this treatise for it is of an importance amongst the fools, and no importance amongst wise men, and this is the Royal way of three days, for they will have but little labour and great lucre. Let us glorify the Most High Creator who has taught his faithful Servant to transmute accidences into substances, also that they may bring to action these powers which lay hidden in divers things.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Sarahli on April 24, 2011, 05:05:54 PM
Gema? In other words because I'm not sure to understand.  :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 24, 2011, 05:12:14 PM
Quote from: "Sarahli"
If there was a hospice patient on life support in the room then what do we do with the statement about the room being heated? What would be the need to do that? And who turned off the medical devices?  
Now, I speak with the opinion of someone on life support,so, in going there, people on life support are COLD.  They aren't really alive..just have machines keeping the lungs going and the blood being pushed into them.  If disconnected, they swiftly become darker, and colder.  In order to not appear long dead, you'd have to raise up the room temp.


Also I'm thinking about the ambulance picture. Everydoby recognizes that it is Michael, so isn't it a dangerous move to release such a picture if some people saw the dead body of someone else?  It is like giving them an "opportunity" to realize that it is not the same person  :? now I don't know if this could trigger bad consequences for the hoax.
I think, this is a question, no matter WHAT.  Dead person, almost dead person, dummy, double, wax figure, or even NO ONE/body at all.  Anyone seeing that ambulance pic will wonder if the FACE they seen is NOT the one in the ambulance!!!  So, they HAVE to be in the know.  FBI/Interpol, or ACTORS.....
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: JMseesMJ on April 24, 2011, 05:54:54 PM
For the ones who had to deal with that frail old man on 6/25/2009 Brian Oxman was sent out later to state that the ambulance photo was a fake.  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 24, 2011, 06:11:48 PM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"


Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.

I also think that the paramedics would have to be in it if it was a hospice patient because there is a risk that they would know MJ faked his death if they did not recognize MJ to be the patient...and also because most people know how MJ looks like.


I don't think it is that complicated. FBI INVOLVEMENT MAKES THINGS SIMPLE. PARAMEDICS, CORONER, HELICOPTER ARE ALL FBI UNDERCOVERS. THEY HAVE A POWER TO DO THINGS WITHOUT GETTING ANYONE INTO THE DETAILS. THE HOSPITAL STAFF CAN BE AVOIDED EASILY FROM THE PROCESS & NO ONE WHOULD KNOW ANYTHING TO SPREAD IT OUT.  IN THIS SCENARIO, THERE IS NO NEED OF ANY CORPS, DUMMY, DUOBLE, ETC. REAL MJ WAS TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL, THEN TO THE AIRPORT. WHY SUPPOSEDLY DYING OR NOT BREATHING MICHAEL NEEDED TO BE TAKEN TO THE HOSPITAL? PERHAPS TO MAKE IT LOOK REAL FOR THOSE WHO HAS TO BELIEVE IT WAS REAL.
MAYBE SOMEONE WAS FOLLOWING MJ AROUND HIS HOUSE, THOSE WHO WERE TRYING TO KEEP CONTROL OVER & KILL MJ, THEREFORE FBI HAD TO TAKE TO THE HOSPITAL REAL MJ TO LOOK REAL JUST IN CASE. THERE IS CAN BE SOME DETAILS WE DON'T KNOW. BUT THAT IS MY OPINION AND I WILL STICK WITH THIS. TOO MUCH ILLUSIONARY, FAIRY TALE LIKE STORIES ARE UNREASONABLE. THIS IS A HOAX FOR SERIOUS REASON, NOT THE FICTION MOVIE. BEN WAS INVITED TO TAKE INCIDENT ON THE VIDEO AND SPRPEAD TO LOOK IT REAL AND THERE WAS NO PREVIOUS DATE HOAX REHEARSAL. EVERYTHING WAS RECORDED LIVE IN JUNE 25.
BUT THIS THEORY IS ONLY IF FBI IS INVOLVED, WHICH WE THINK IS.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 24, 2011, 06:32:31 PM

Although I have no problem at all if a real corpse was being used, there just are some things bothering me about it. The people that had to be fooled would be the public and the media. Since we haven't seen a body at all, the body was not used to fool us or the media. So the reason to use a real corpse has to be to fool the paramedics and the doctors at UCLA and I have trouble believing they would be fooled enough to work on that body for 2 hours while they must have seen (as also testified by both paramedics and doctor Cooper) that it was dead already. If the doctors (I guess there were just two at the prelim to testify, Cooper and Nguyen) would not be in and you deliver a dead corpse at the hospital, the chance of them pronouncing the patient dead within 5 to 10 minutes would be big. Doctors are no morons, they know a dead person when they see one. The chance that the time of death would NOT fit into the well planned numerology would therefore be WAY bigger, than that they would call it at 2:26 pm, as planned. You could say they did call it earlier and the FBI changed the TOD on the papers, but in that case we have a doctor who is being kept out of the loop, has to testify and there is a very likely possibility that that subject would come up, since the doctor is not going to lie about that just like that. If she would, it would mean that the FBI has asked her to go along with it for whatever reason, and if they had to do that anyway, why not from the start? So no need to fool the docs.

If a real corpse was used, there are two options:

1-Person died before June 25 and was preserved (donor body)
2-Person died on June 25 in the morning, before 911 was called (Assisted suicide/pulling plug out of life support machines)

In both cases the paramedics AND the doctors at UCLA must have seen that the person was dead, as in really dead without chances of reviving. Rigor Mortis and Algor Mortis are not the only stages of death, there is more to determine whether someone is dead and for how long. Algor Mortis (cooling of the corpse) can be manipulated with the heated room, yet that same heated room will make Rigor Mortis set in quicker, even if a body was cooled first. The condition of the patient is also important for the onset of Rigor Mortis. A 'sick, old, frail' man will show rigor way sooner than a person with more body fat and muscles. So by heating the room they might have prevented Algor Mortis, but they sped up the Rigor Mortis. You can 'break' rigor, but not on the eyelids, you will damage the tissue visibly.

This is an excerpt of an article published in August 2009:

Quote
Dr Steven Hoefflin, a close friend of Jackson and speaking with the permission of his mother Katherine, confirmed details of the paperwork.

"I've spoken to a chief in the fire department who told me Michael was dead when they arrived," Dr Hoefflin, 63, told News of the World.

"He had no pulse and was not breathing. They gave him an electro-cardiogram but he was flatlined.

"They say he even had lividity, which meant the blood had sunk to the back, indicating his heart had stopped a couple of hours earlier.

"This is the most important aspect of the report as it means he must have been dead for over an hour, probably longer."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertainme ... 5762363443 (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/entertainment/paramedic-report-disputes-physicians-account-on-michael-jacksons-death/story-e6frf96f-1225762363443)

Lividity is a stage of death that is very hard to prevent, without draining the blood from the body. We know they didn't do that, because the hospital allegedly took samples. Lividity sets in 1 to 2 hours after death and that means that the patient is as dead as can be and that there is NO USE in CPR or anything else.

Seneff testified during the prelim that the patient's eyes and mouth were open, eyes-dilated and dry, his hands and feet were blue.
He was cold to touch.

And Blount testified that he observed that the patient’s eyes were “blown” (large and unresponsive to light).

Let's say that the paramedics would not be in on it, and they did find a person like this. No pulse, not breathing, cold, showed lividity, eyes dried and open (which will cause Tache Noire, a black stripe in the eyes), hands and feet were blue (Cyanosis, not enough oxygen in the blood). The above indicates that the person is not only clinically dead, but also brain dead. In other words: even IF they would be able to get the organs and heart to work again (sometimes people survive clinical death), the person would never be able to lift his own finger or open his eyes.

Quote
Brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. For the best chance of survival and neurological recovery, immediate and decisive treatment is imperative.
(Wiki)

Murray allegedly performed CPR on the bed with one hand. We can assume by the reports that immediate and decisive treatment was not given in the first 5 (most likely even more) minutes.

So if the paramedics would not be in, it is only logical that they wanted to call it and transport him to the coroner. But Murray could have overruled them and could have gotten as far as the emergency room. But over there the ER doctor is the higher authority. If a patient like that would arrive (CLEARLY dead as a doornail), there is no way a doctor keeps trying to revive that person for over an hour. Reviving a patient like that would be a medical miracle, having the patient functioning again would be simply IMPOSSIBLE). The doctor would have called it right away and not wait until 2:26 pm.

As for the bodyguards not in it: no way. They were in the room with the patient and Murray and called 911. They worked for Michael and bodyguards have extreme eye for detail. They need that to be on guard 24/7. Yet they wouldn't recognize the person they have been protecting all this time? I don't buy that at all.

So this is what is bothering me regarding the corpse. A doctor will not perform CPR on a clearly dead person. So either they are not in and called it way earlier and now lie all of a sudden about that, meaning they were read-in later, what doesn't make sense if you could do that right away, or they are in on it, which seems to make more sense.

So if the bodyguards are in, and the doctors are in when a real body is used, it would mean the same amount of people involved as when there would have been no ambulance that day, except for the two paramedics mentioned above. Using a real corpse for just two paramedics who can be easily silenced does not make sense to me.

Actually with nothing happening at all on June 25, less people would be in, since there would not be an emergency and only the two docs testifying have to be in. The emergency room could have been empty. Nothing to see, nothing to risk. The use of a real corpse would be useless, unless there would be another good reason to use a real body, but I can't think of one.

So if anyone can give me another reason for the use of a real corpse, please do so. Is what I stated above enough for a jury in a court of law? Maybe not, but it's enough for reasonable doubt. And that's all you need.

So I am back at my previous question: was there an ambulance at all on June 25?[/color]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 24, 2011, 07:13:38 PM
I don't see connections in 2 details:
1. If FBI is involved, why use somepone's corpse as they have a power.....to be paramedics, doctors, & whoever . I would think of MJ look alike body used if there is no FBI is involved.
2. If numerology is considered along with perfectly loooong time ago planned hoax, would FBI get into the details of numerology or FBI was following Michael's plan to be exact with all numbers? Excuse me, I don't think so. It sounds nonsense to me, sorry.

Can anyone clarify this?

I don't think anyone's dead body was used with FBI involvement. What for, the motive?
FBI all over the hoax from A to Z with his plan, then no numerology would be used, or no FBI at all.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 24, 2011, 07:17:07 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
FBI all over the hoax from A to Z with his plan, then no numerology would be used, or no FBI at all.

Because?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 24, 2011, 08:15:37 PM
I think it would be good to remember this now that this discarding body theory:

Quote
bec wrote:

This is Badkolo's theory. It's origin lies somewhere in late July 2009 and that's when my eyes were opened to the simple brilliance of posibility, and the very REALness of a death hoax plan. Badkolo gets 100% credit for this. This is the product of his mind, I am simply the (minion) messenger.

Sometimes, in your quest for the truth you can be turned upside down 6 ways from Sunday, travel all around the globe, and start to delve into the depths of obscurity and madness when, all along, the answers you seek are right in your own backyard.

Sometimes, when searching for the thruth, the simplest theory is the strongest one. THE 3 way theory is just that, and it has stood up, over months of searching and investigation and researching and events unfolding before out eyes... it has stood up, and has yet to be refuted. Beyond and further, it has become strengthened, and therefore it cannot be ignored. It deserves to be shared again.

THE 3 Way Theory:

Is very simple. And very clear. And very, VERY brilliant. And it is ALL Badkolo's mind at work, very early in the game, he was very, very on to something. It bears witness to recent events, and gains strength from them, and he may just be RIGHT.

THE 3 way theory states this: the fewer persons IN ON IT the better, as loose lips sink ships and certainly Michael can't have the whole world knowing what he's up to with a death hoax. All it takes is one slip, and the jig is up. Michael MUST retain BAMSday (as it's come to be known) for himself. Michael MUST retain full control over the timing of the reveal as timing will be crucial. The stage must be set, public perception must be just right, and certain pieces and events must fall into place. The less people involved the better, and the more reliably Michael retains this control solely for himself.

In order for this hoax to be pulled off, only 3 persons are necessary players: Michael, one Doctor, and the Coronor. Michael for obvious reasons but the other two are ALL that are needed to pull off a death hoax. No 50 million people involved. No massive cast of characters. No. Only 3.

One Doctor would be needed to get Michael to the hospital because he MUST be pronounced dead at a hospital. Michael may NOT be pronounced dead anywhere else as more complicated legalities are involved in death occuring outside of a medical facility. The "scene" must be sealed, police must be brought in, pictures must be taken and detectives must be involved immediatly. This is entirely too many witnesses to attempt to deal with. This scenario is unacceptable. No. Michael MUST be taken to a hospital where the situation can be controlled, and "death" becomes a simple matter of paperwork. Dr. Murray plays this role. Remember, Murray "overrules" the paramedics at the scene and accompanies Michael's "body" to UCLA. It can safely be assumed (in leu of any information at all) that Murray conceivably could have, being a medical professional and attending physician, retained specific priviliges that allowed him to control situations once at UCLA as well. It is very very conceivable that Murray could have gotten Michael into that "closed off wing" of UCLA ER and simply out the back door, then he could have easily turned it into a "he said/she said situation from there, and no one would be the wiser, simply following orders and passing along information that they have been told.

The Coronor is the third member of the 3 Way Theory, also hopefully for obvious reasons. The Coronor is needed to legalise the death and paperwork associated with such. The death certificate would need to go through the coronor, as well as the autopsey report. So long as the coronor signs off on or produces both of those documents, legal "death" is finalised and the first stage of the hoax is done.

So.

We have Murray, who handles the EMTs and UCLA staff, shepherding Michael presumably out the back door and conducting any damage control within and left behind, after which he can safely disappear and begin his role in the next stage of the hoax viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5033

And we have the coronor, who takes the batton from Murray and runs with it, signing off on a fake DC and producing a fake autopsey report to satisfy the legal paperwork aspect of death. As we have seen with the DC, legal loopholes have been exploited to the fullest (namely, no pun intended, the name, but it doesn't end there. Michael has covered himself with at least half a dozen legal loopholes, as we have discovered in relation to the DC and other crucial documents).

And voila, you have a death hoax, stage one (physical "death"), completed. Once this stage is completed, death is widely accepted as fact and the rest is comparitively easy.

Why would, and how could Murray and the coronor participate legally in this scenario? Another simple answer: Performance art. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_art) Not a movie production persay, but a production nontheless, in front of a live audience: us, the media, the world. Under script, and under contract, paid for their participation, real life people performing as actors or extras in a live production.

I trust that Michael Jackson has the best lawyers money can buy and the legality would be ensured ahead of time, with all the i's dotted and the t's crossed so I reject the notion that any illegal activities are/have taken place in the process of this hoax. And I really don't think that's unrealistic to assume.

NOTE: THE 3 way theory does NOT stipulate that ONLY 3 people (Michael, Murray, and the coronor) are involved and "in on it", it simply states that only these three people are NECESSARY to complete the physical stage of the hoax. Any persons added, or made aware of the hoax after that are simply ELECTIVE.
Simple. Perceptive. Brilliant. And holding up. In fact, it's the last original theory standing. Badkolo owns it, it is the work of his mind alone. Time will tell, and perhaps very soon, if he has been right all along. I have held onto this as one of my basic, original truths, and I'm honored to be granted permission to share it with you.

and the FBI
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 24, 2011, 09:14:25 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
FBI all over the hoax from A to Z with his plan, then no numerology would be used, or no FBI at all.

Because?

Because the numerology fits with the Michael's  longtime ago planned hoax only (in which case he realized hoax with his friends rewarding couple of doctors and paramedics, and real corpse would be used here) and FBI will NOT follow Michael's hoax plan. Michael is NOT FBI's boss. We can't downgrade authorities, they will do their job to save person, but they will not follow that person's directions and they don't care who is it. They have enough power to realize hoax without other body and numerology, they have their hoax plans in reserve. The haox purpose to fool MJ enemy, then the "fact he died" is more than enough for them to get buy the hoax. why humerelogy, I don't see the point to waste time following exact times, unnecessary stress. Look at the hoax as a very serious operation, not the  hide find seek game.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 24, 2011, 09:24:55 PM
*Gasp* Paula, I have been looking for that post!

I see that the 3 Way Theory has evolved since that posting to include one Dr. at UCLA, for obvious reasons as the hoax progressed thru 2010 and into 2011 (that is a very old post). Murray/UCLA Doc/Coroner=3 Way is further evolving now to include FBI, but the philosophy remains the same. As does the logic.

But now the events from 6/25/09 may have all been an illusion...

@Souza: your post re: No Body aka who would a corpse be trying to fool? Thank you for putting so well what I have been trying to say for 24 pages. No deadBody!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 24, 2011, 09:33:41 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
FBI all over the hoax from A to Z with his plan, then no numerology would be used, or no FBI at all.

Because?

Because the numerology fits with the Michael's  longtime ago planned hoax only (in which case he realized hoax with his friends rewarding couple of doctors and paramedics, and real corpse would be used here) and FBI will NOT follow Michael's hoax plan. Michael is NOT FBI's boss. We can't downgrade authorities, they will do their job to save person, but they will not follow that person's directions and they don't care who is it. They have enough power to realize hoax without other body and numerology, they have their hoax plans in reserve. The haox purpose to fool MJ enemy, then the "fact he died" is more than enough for them to get buy the hoax. why humerelogy, I don't see the point to waste time following exact times, unnecessary stress. Look at the hoax as a very serious operation, not the  hide find seek game.

Yes I agree with you almost completely. I just cannot explain the 333 pages of FBI files released by the FBI on 12/21 though. That's spooky, just-not-right, weird, and it's unexplainable as just a "coincidence".

Additionally, MJ could never pull off a hoax of this magnitude with a TRIAL attached to it, by himself without involving very high up assistance (the feds), and most likely from the FBI, as they would retain jurisdiction over local and state police and fire. I know this is a hoax, so he had to have help from somewhere. This is why I am receptive to the FBI involvement theory.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 24, 2011, 09:37:18 PM
Just for curiosity's sake, I Googled "what is a death hoax?"  I want to go at it from a total newbie, un-believer...whatever.  Here is the Wiki for that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_hoax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_hoax)

It certainly lists Michael, no surprise.  What else about learning the basics of a death hoax could be relevant to solving this?  In other words, if you were going to produce a hoax, what would need to be done?  Now, think about from Michael's perspective....his life has so many more aspects.  What bases would need to be covered?  These are questions I am going to ponder this week.....back to the beginning, because I feel like things are staring me in the face.  I feel there are obvious things I am missing or understanding....why, I don't know.  I am a bright person, lol!
Anyways, I hope you all had a great weekend!

Blessings
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 24, 2011, 09:48:56 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
FBI all over the hoax from A to Z with his plan, then no numerology would be used, or no FBI at all.

Because?

Because the numerology fits with the Michael's  longtime ago planned hoax only (in which case he realized hoax with his friends rewarding couple of doctors and paramedics, and real corpse would be used here) and FBI will NOT follow Michael's hoax plan. Michael is NOT FBI's boss. We can't downgrade authorities, they will do their job to save person, but they will not follow that person's directions and they don't care who is it. They have enough power to realize hoax without other body and numerology, they have their hoax plans in reserve. The haox purpose to fool MJ enemy, then the "fact he died" is more than enough for them to get buy the hoax. why humerelogy, I don't see the point to waste time following exact times, unnecessary stress. Look at the hoax as a very serious operation, not the  hide find seek game.

Yes I agree with you almost completely. I just cannot explain the 333 pages of FBI files released by the FBI on 12/21 though. That's spooky, just-not-right, weird, and it's unexplainable as just a "coincidence".

Additionally, MJ could never pull off a hoax of this magnitude with a TRIAL attached to it, by himself without involving very high up assistance (the feds), and most likely from the FBI, as they would retain jurisdiction over local and state police and fire. I know this is a hoax, so he had to have help from somewhere. This is why I am receptive to the FBI involvement theory.

All right, agree that more likely FBI is involved. Then 333 pages could be coincidence and is not that important hoaxwise.
However, I  think Michael realized HIS hoax plan, with his frieds,no FBI, and he will not be back. MJ's thoroughly planned hoax could be done without authority help, following numerology, exact timing Trial is nothing, Murray will be acquitted from charges or will serve a few months and be free based on amnesty and enjoy his BIG reward.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 24, 2011, 10:37:20 PM
I was watching the coroners press release, and  just realised he said "The only reason the coroner got involved was because no  doctor would sign the death certificate at the hospital  :o    :o

So if Murray had signed the death certificate, and autopsy wouldn't be necessary.  Why didn't the drs at UCLA, the one that called the time of death, sign the certificate??  

Hmmmmmmmmmm...maybe they didn't recognise the patient..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmdrNn3H ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmdrNn3HZcY&feature=related)
[youtube:2cvr3thm]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmdrNn3HZcY&feature=related[/youtube:2cvr3thm]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 25, 2011, 02:52:05 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"

So I am back at my previous question: was there an ambulance at all on June 25?

You know, I really don’t think there was.  I agree that there would be just be too many factors to take into account if this hoax was staged “live” on June 25th - the ambulance portion with 911 call.  So it does seem likely that this was filmed and the 911 call pre-recorded before anyone thought Michael lived there.  I’m really glad you’ve brought all this up Souza because it makes so much sense to me and it also shows why nobody can resolve the corpse/nothing/dummy/MJ/double scenarios on June 25th.  Because none of those scenarios even exist.  No wonder we can't convince each other.  And if it was all pre-recorded  on the “other day” then anyone involved would be in on it....(aaand ACTION! - cue the actors.)

Quote from: "TS_comments"
Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial! “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year. Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/se ... eral-scams (http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams)

So if anyone could successfully pull off a fake death, it would be the FBI.  They investigate this stuff and know the ins and outs of what needs to be done and the best way to do it.  Only they can get away with it because they’re the FBI.  If it’s a sting, the integrity of the whole operation must remain intact and therefore some people will have to lie in order for that to happen.  There was no ambulance ride on June 25th.  TMZ reported at 1:30 pm that Michael had suffered cardiac arrest and was at UCLA.  People start showing up at UCLA as the word spreads and it’s just taken for granted that Michael is in fact there.  But that ambulance never showed up – nobody at the hospital sees anything as there is nothing to see.  Maybe someone at UCLA had been contacted by the FBI.  The FBI say for security/safety reasons, people are to believe Michael Jackson arrived at UCLA in an ambulance and dies there.   The UCLA contact (Doc Cooper) either knows Michael is alive or thinks he is dead in another hospital but his actual location is really being kept secret, according to what the FBI is saying.  Whatever the case is, UCLA doesn't acknowledge Michael's death - it's Jermaine who announces it and that whole scene was bizarre in itself.

The helicopter ride happened on June 25th and this may be where the “paid actors” come in (from the FBI snippet above that TS posted).  Here are a couple scenarios that could explain the chopper ride.
 
-   The helicopter crew are actors (just look at the action footage!) including an actor under the white sheet on the stretcher who sits up nicely for everybody keeping a close eye.

-   The helicopter crew thinks it’s Michael when it’s a body(s) that was already on it’s way to the coroners.  The body has nothing to do with Michael but is a convenient cover to make the world think it is Michael.  It’s plausible as you would have to think that UCLA hospital would have deaths occur there daily.

I imagine the coroner would have to be clued in but that’s not a hard persuasion when it’s Michael Jackson and the FBI clueing you in.  The autopsy report was also prepared before June 25th, so that everything in the The “death” Scenario matches up to the reported events of June 25th.  Remember, they are trying to convince people that Michael is dead so the AR has to jive with what they're claiming.  The AR that was finalized on 9/9/9.  Also remember – the DC and AR name “Michael Joseph Jackson” when Michael’s legal middle name is Joe.  This was another clue from the FBI’s 333 pages we saw – they refer to him in their files as “Michael Joe” but when Michael 'died', he was mentioned on their site as “Michael Joseph”.  

Remember the FBI themselves say on their own website, exactly one year after Michael’s fake funeral: “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies”   And obviously the feds like to throw a few clues out there for anyone paying attention – entrapment successfully avoided.

The paramedics would have to be actors and/or actively participating in the sting as there needs to be their “evidence” given about what happened on “June 25th”.  It’s entirely possible that the ambulance photo was taken genuinely through the window from the video footage we see of it.  This shows that on the “other day” there was the use of a dummy or a live double.  But that is for the infamous ambulance photo, not to try and fool the paramedics (in on it from some standpoint) and it’s not trying to fool any hospital staff as there was no trip to the hospital.  And remember that Brian Oxman  said he was 99.9% sure the photo was fake and it was also he who claims his request via the Freedom of Information Act resulted in the release of the 333 FBI pages from their 7 files because he just so happened to learn the FBI was keeping tabs on Michael.  

I realize I’m getting ahead of myself here but I have all these thoughts going through my head as I type.  

And as I said in an earlier post, TMZ was laying the ground work 6 months before June 25th with numerology and hoax timings that hadn't even happened yet.

In my ever-changing opinion (thanks Souza!  :lol: ) June 25th was an elaborate illusion, in every sense, with TMZ writing the script for the world to read.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 25, 2011, 03:41:58 AM
Quote from: Andrea

You know, I really don’t think there was.  I agree that there would be just be too many factors to take into account if this hoax was staged “live” on June 25th - the ambulance portion with 911 call. So it does seem likely that this was filmed and the 911 call pre-recorded before anyone thought Michael lived there.  

Where it was "filmed" Andrea? At Staples Center?

So if anyone could successfully pull off a fake death, it would be the FBI.  They investigate this stuff and know the ins and outs of what needs to be done and the best way to do it.  Only they can get away with it because they’re the FBI.

Exactly, therefore I wrote above some important statement you should count.  
 
-   The helicopter crew are actors (just look at the action footage!) including an actor under the white sheet on the stretcher who sits up nicely for everybody keeping a close eye.

There is NO ACTORS if FBI is involved. Jeeze!

-    The  when it’s Michael Jackson and the FBI clueing you in.

Why FBI needs  cluing us? Are you people really believe that FBI is a Hollywood or some kind of cheap club of morons....? You have to be careful what you are talking about. Help Michael to hoax under Michael's direction/hoax plan to make sure all numerology is met, then make sure to give us  clues, but also make sure Michael's enemy's did not get  this is a hoax, what else....? You are controversing  theories all over. People, be serious.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: eternalflame on April 25, 2011, 04:21:45 AM
Quote from: "Gema"
Quote from: "Sarahli"
If there was a hospice patient on life support in the room then what do we do with the statement about the room being heated? What would be the need to do that? And who turned off the medical devices?  

Have you read the Allegory of Merlin?

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/merlin.html (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/merlin.html)


Wow Gema, I´m deeply impressed, I didn´t know that and I read quite a lot.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 25, 2011, 06:02:08 AM
Remember this video.......
It was filmed outside the staples centre..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB5VDU9q ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB5VDU9qudU&feature=related)
[youtube:3vzv7cbf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB5VDU9qudU&feature=related[/youtube:3vzv7cbf]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 25, 2011, 06:52:02 AM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "Andrea"

You know, I really don’t think there was.  I agree that there would be just be too many factors to take into account if this hoax was staged “live” on June 25th - the ambulance portion with 911 call. So it does seem likely that this was filmed and the 911 call pre-recorded before anyone thought Michael lived there.  

Where it was "filmed" Andrea? At Staples Center?

So if anyone could successfully pull off a fake death, it would be the FBI.  They investigate this stuff and know the ins and outs of what needs to be done and the best way to do it.  Only they can get away with it because they’re the FBI.

Exactly, therefore I wrote above some important statement you should count.  
 
-   The helicopter crew are actors (just look at the action footage!) including an actor under the white sheet on the stretcher who sits up nicely for everybody keeping a close eye.

There is NO ACTORS if FBI is involved. Jeeze!

-    The  when it’s Michael Jackson and the FBI clueing you in.

Why FBI needs  cluing us? Are you people really believe that FBI is a Hollywood or some kind of cheap club of morons....? You have to be careful what you are talking about. Help Michael to hoax under Michael's direction/hoax plan to make sure all numerology is met, then make sure to give us  clues, but also make sure Michael's enemy's did not get  this is a hoax, what else....? You are controversing  theories all over. People, be serious.

Scorpion, this is not the first time you ridicule someone else in a very rude way. If you have an opinion other than Andrea's, state it with respect and don't petronize people. And I am VERY serious about that.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 25, 2011, 07:14:02 AM
Quote from: "Andrea"

There was no ambulance ride on June 25th.  TMZ reported at 1:30 pm that Michael had suffered cardiac arrest and was at UCLA.  People start showing up at UCLA as the word spreads and it’s just taken for granted that Michael is in fact there.  But that ambulance never showed up – nobody at the hospital sees anything as there is nothing to see.  Maybe someone at UCLA had been contacted by the FBI.  The FBI say for security/safety reasons, people are to believe Michael Jackson arrived at UCLA in an ambulance and dies there.   The UCLA contact (Doc Cooper) either knows Michael is alive or thinks he is dead in another hospital but his actual location is really being kept secret, according to what the FBI is saying.
 

That explains a lot...so MJ could of done the footage before and MJ could fake his death without many people knowing...or no one at UCLA knowing...only Conrad Murray, paramedics and those who were at Carolwood know about the hoax..
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 25, 2011, 07:18:55 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"

Although I have no problem at all if a real corpse was being used, there just are some things bothering me with it. The people that had to be fooled would be the public and the media. Since we haven't seen a body at all, the body was not used to full us or the media. So the reason to use a real corpse has to be to fool the paramedics and the doctors at UCLA and I have trouble believing they would be fooled enough to work on that body for 2 hours while they must have seen (as also testified by both paramedics and doctor Cooper) that it was dead already. If the doctors (I guess there were just two at the prelim to testify, Cooper and Nguyen) would not be in and you deliver a dead corpse at the hospital, the chance of them pronouncing the patient dead within 5 to 10 minutes would be big. Doctors are no morons, they know a dead person when they see one. The chance that the time of death would NOT fit into the well planned numerology would therefore be WAY bigger, than that they would call it at 2:26 pm, as planned. You could say they did call it earlier and the FBI changed the TOD on the papers, but in that case we have a doctor who is being kept out of the loop, has to testify and there is a very likely possibility that that subject would come up, since the doctor is not going to lie about that just like that. If she would, it would mean that the FBI has asked her to go along with it for whatever reason, and if they had to do that anyway, why not from the start? So no need to fool the docs.

If a real corpse was used, there are two options:

1-Person died before June 25 and was preserved (donor body)
2-Person died on June 25 in the morning, before 911 was called (Assisted suicide/pulling plug out of life support machines)

In both cases the paramedics AND the doctors at UCLA must have seen that the person was dead, as in really dead without chances of reviving. Rigor Mortis and Algor Mortis are not the only stages of death, there is more to determine whether someone is dead and for how long. Algor Mortis (cooling of the corpse) can be manipulated with the heated room, yet that same heated room will make Rigor Mortis set in quicker, even if a body was cooled first. The condition of the patient is also important for the onset of Rigor Mortis. A 'sick, old, frail' man will show rigor way sooner than a person with more body fat and muscles. So by heating the room they might have prevented Algor Mortis, but they sped up the Rigor Mortis. You can 'break' rigor, but not on the eyelids, you will damage the tissue visibly.

Souza thank you so much for your post! That is exactly what i had in my mind this whole time, i just didn't know how to put it the right way.  :D And also thank you for mentioning Algor and Rigor Mortis, i was bringing this point in the begging of this thread, but i thought that people didn't see my post or that my point was not valid enough for them.  :oops:  
I also have no problem with using a dead body, science use cadavers in much more disrespectful way than it could've been used in this hoax. But i couldn't figure out WHO this body was supposed to fool? People who stick with the DEAD BODY theory could you please tell me WHO would be fooled by it, i would really appreciate it.  

L.O.V.E to all!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 25, 2011, 07:23:38 AM
I think you have nailed it Souza.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 25, 2011, 09:45:20 AM
Some thoughts:

1) There's always two shores to a river.
Participants might not be on the right shore but on the left one.
Who's out there might operate completely differently from what our drawer integration into myths might suggest.
That's what keeps us in a good movie, too: not knowing exactly whether one protagonist will be in the end on the right or on the left shore.


2) The sky is not blue because it's blue
but because
a) our eyes and brains are capable to distinguish different colours, because
b) the sky simply absorbs all other frequencies of visible light except for a group of frequencies that is perceived (by human eyes) as blue, because
c) these frequencies are reflected.
The sky does not allow for any other frequencies than blue (in combination with our physical form of eyes only - a spider may see "our" green grass as red grass).
Thus, efficient PR is about absorbing all details that could overshadow the perception the director wants and to distribute / reflect the details he wants to reach the public eye.


3) Expectations affect perception.
Quote
Selective perception may refer to any number of cognitive biases in psychology related to the way expectations affect perception.

For instance, several studies have shown that students who were told they were consuming alcoholic beverages (which in fact were non-alcoholic) perceived themselves as being "drunk", exhibited fewer physiological symptoms of social stress, and drove a simulated car similarly to other subjects who had actually consumed alcohol. The result is somewhat similar to the placebo effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_perception


4) One doesn't tell a story that is not understood.
Too much effort, too little result.
Given that one has to tell an important story, one has to make sure the story is understood, no matter where, when and how the word arrives. As communication is one of the hardest soils if the story's content is not easy as a tabloid, some assistant will be required which may be named structure. It is for that reason that structure finds its place in poems, lyrics, novels, paintings, operas, musicals, movies.
Giving structure is a key task of a director. The director has the vision of his outcome, he's giving the direction and the guidance towards the realization of his vision. The more differing the public, the more difficult yet important the story, the more (comprehensible, simple) structure will be required.

James Joyce's "Ullysses" was so hard to read because usual "conditioned" structure was missing. Still there was some structure but it had to be identified first by the book's readers, it was not given by the author in the form of manifested chapters as a fast food aspect.
Quote
At first glance much of the book may appear unstructured and chaotic; Joyce once said that he had "put in so many enigmas and puzzles that it will keep the professors busy for centuries arguing over what I meant", which would earn the novel "immortality".
The two schemata which Stuart Gilbert and Herbert Gorman released after publication to defend Joyce from the obscenity accusations made the links to the Odyssey clear, and also explained the work's internal structure.
Every episode of Ulysses has a theme, technique, and correspondences between its characters and those of the Odyssey. The original text did not include these episode titles and the correspondences; instead, they originate from the Linati and Gilbert schema. Joyce referred to the episodes by their Homeric titles in his letters.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_%28novel%29

An author will have to think about a framework first before starting to write.
A simple novel structure will be like this:
Quote
Conflict and Character within Story Structure
The Basic Three Act Structure

The simplest building blocks of a good story are found in the Three Act Structure. Separated by Plot Points, its Act 1 (Beginning), Act 2 (Middle), and Act 3 (End) refer not to where in time in the story they lie but instead fundamental stages along the way.

(http://www.musik-therapie.at/PederHill/images/Charac7.jpg)

    *     In the Beginning you introduce the reader to the setting, the characters and the situation (conflict) they find themselves in and their goal. Plot Point 1 is a situation that drives the main character from their "normal" life toward some different conflicting situation that the story is about.
         
            Great stories often begin at Plot Point 1, thrusting the main character right into the thick of things, but they never really leave out Act 1, instead filling it in with back story along the way.

    *      In the Middle the story develops through a series of complications and obstacles, each leading to a mini crisis. Though each of these crises are temporarily resolved, the story leads inevitably to an ultimate crisis—the Climax. As the story progresses, there is a rising and falling of tension with each crisis, but an overall rising tension as we approach the Climax. The resolution of the Climax is Plot Point 2.

    *      In the End, the Climax and the loose ends of the story are resolved during the Denouement. Tension rapidly dissipates because it's nearly impossible to sustain a reader's interest very long after the climax. Finish your story and get out.

(http://www.musik-therapie.at/PederHill/images/Struct1.gif)

Character Arc and Story Structure
    * Act 1 Character Arc
          o In the Beginning of a story the main character, being human (even if he of she isn't), will resist change (inner conflict). The character is  perfectly content as he is; there's no reason to change.
    * Plot Point 1 – Then something happens to throw everything off balance.
          o It should come as a surprise that shifts the story in a new direction and reveals that the protagonist’s life will never be the same again.
                + In Star Wars this point occurs when Luke's family is killed, freeing him to fight the Empire.
          o It puts an obstacle in the way of the character that forces him or her to deal with something they would avoid under normal circumstances.  

    * Act 2
          o The second Act is about a character’s emotional journey and is the hardest part of a story to write. Give your characters all sorts of challenges to overcome during Act 2. Make them struggle towards their goal.
          o The key to Act Two is conflict. Without it you can’t move the story forward. And conflict doesn’t mean a literal fight. Come up with obstacles (maybe five, maybe a dozen—depends on the story) leading up to your plot point at the end of Act 2.
                + Throughout the second act remember to continually raise the stakes of your character’s emotional journey.
                + Simultaneously advance both inner and outer conflicts. Have them work together—the character should alternate up and down internally between hope and disappointment as external problems begin to seem solvable then become more insurmountable than ever.  
                + Include reversals of fortune and unexpected turns of events—surprise your reader with both the actions of the main character and the events surrounding him.
    * Plot Point 2
          o Act Two ends with the second plot point, which thrusts the story in another unexpected direction.
          o Plot Point 2 occurs at the moment the hero appears beaten or lost but something happens to turn the situation around. The hero's goal becomes reachable.
                + Right before this unexpected story turn, the hero reaches the Black Moment—the point at which all is lost and the goal cannot be achieved.  
                      # In order to have a "Climax", where the tension is highest, you must have a "Black" moment, where the stakes are highest and danger at its worst.
                      # During this moment, the hero draws upon the new strengths or lessons he's learned in order to take action and bring the story to a conclusion.
                            * Dorothy’s gotta get a broom from the Wicked Witch before she can go home.
                            * Luke’s gotta blow up the Death Star before fulfilling his destiny.
                            * Professor Klump’s gotta save face with the investors of his formula and win back Jada.

    * Act 3
          o The third Act dramatically shows how the character is able to succeed or become a better person.
          o Resolution/denouement ties together the loose ends of the story (not necessarily all of them) and allows the reader to see the outcome of the main character’s decision at the climax. Here we see evidence of the change in a positive character arc.

Story Structure & the Buddha
Great novels—great stories—existed long before there were books about something called Story Structure. The pattern of an enchanting yarn has been recreated again and again through time and around the world in myths and tales. The rhythm of these stories that so captures our imaginations reflects not marketing trends but our collective struggle through life. Things that deeply resonate do so because they tug at our inner workings. Structure is not a prison—use tips and advice on it only as a map, but go down deep within yourself to find the road. Finding the road is the most pleasurable part of writing.

A Word on Plot
Don't let your focus be the Plot, which is the series of events and situations that occur along the route of your story. The Plot is a natural outcome of the seeds of your story—it emerges from your setup of the characters, their conflicts and the setting they occur in. You'll write a more powerful, believable story if you focus on seed planting long before you worry about the harvest.
http://www.musik-therapie.at/PederHill/Structure&Plot.htm
More: http://www.musik-therapie.at/PederHill/Good_Links.htm


Numerology, biblical parallels and symbolism are being used as a basic story framework and groundlaying structure. They may have additional meaning, but the overall aspect is that they tie together what could not be tied together elsewise or what otherwise could not be understood in a worldwide scope.
The fact that individuals from around the planet, of different beliefs, males, females, older or younger, being fans or not being fans were attracted to the story means that some of the framework elements DID in fact speak their language and was understood, thus being part of a universal message code not needing any translation anymore.
(This is the main advantage of images over words.) However, whereas biblical parallels and general symbolism have been accepted, numerology aspects have not been accepted as a basic structure by all spectators.

Numerology serves as a kind of "proof" scheme if one wants to check for developments backwards from the end to the beginning and then go "ahhhh, yes, right".
How does one want to proof a story to be true if one cannot use any framework that was incorporated into it from the beginning?
When watching a Hitchcock movie backwards, you will notice when preparing hints for the end were planted. The number and kind of hints and their chronology explain that the author of the hints wanted to be understood in a certain manner.

Numerology serves as a kind of "storybook" scheme if one wants to have spectators / witnesses of a "making of" during production who follow up the developments - first row cinema with some assumption of what might happen next but also cable pullers, extra staff etc. to reinforce public opinion.
In the story of the snake and the mouse: you know the terrarium offers only limited space for the mouse to escape (story framework) so you may calculate that death will happen. But you won't know when the snake will bite. However you may convince others to join watching the fight because you may explain due to the frame conditions that the snake sooner or later will bite. The more witnesses, the more "knowers", the less accusers - to prevent from negative outcome.

Numerology serves to make a story "make sense" and "connect dots" that could maybe not be connected in a coherent / desired way due to individual and deviating interpretations. The more one searches for "sense" and "reason", the more an answer that "makes sense" following a certain logic may be adapted.

Numerology may be used only because targetted enemies do believe in it.
Understanding your enemy is the basic competence to be able to beat him.
Using his techniques is wise, sometimes you must just do the contrary of the expected, however, but stick to the language the opponent understands.
Quote
Book of Five Rings by Musashi Miyamoto

(download: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:PogBk8z-Wg4J:www.guardianacademymembers.com/articlesfiverings.pdf+musashi+the+book+of+five+rings+pdf&hl=en&gl=de&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjp1CwNR7wzZVFMVqO2apzLtdXAhalThhahAm-UWk4W834791KZouUY02glOfuhmt32dipIlNtURPR20eS7B1xoFW_1723bwtRX04_4bnMrNUqQ0XDm3xoN55rK3omFQOBDipoJ&sig=AHIEtbS1tB27Wf-jsyDUD4lIOvzzPs4uOQ)


5) "Proof of" is used to increase credibility of the unexplainable
"Proof of" has played an important part to date. We saw Ben's picture "proof of the taking of the ambulance picture". We saw the tourist bus movie "proof of the ambulance backing out".
Ben did insist two more time in addition that it was him and Chris and that it did happen this ("and the other") day.

A proof is only needed when something is at stake, may be questioned or did not happen at all to back up the claim that it happened and to prevent from further questions.
However, the majority of spectators did not question the ambu photo and the ambulance video. So were the several "proof of" elements only "playing safe double floor"?
Or was it more to calm down exactly those targetted potential doubters who could be harmful to the project? Who - if not the wide public - was a potential doubter then who required to be calmed down in a pre-calculated manner?

We were hinted that we as a "witness group" might play a role in court as to "if only one wanted to look a little bit deeper into the story, one would have found out - like those unprofessional housewives on MJDHI.com - that the story was made up." So now we too will become a kind of "proof".
What is it that is at stake here or that needs to be questioned? What did not happen at all? Capacities and professionalism of any investigators? Ethical standards of medical professions? Non-corruption claims of LAPD / LASD / LAFD / FBI / CIA / CA state government / U.S. government? Drug trafficking? Insurance fraud? Death industry fraud? Entertainment business fraud? Improper and unequal treatment of a black male VIP?
Re-reading Aphrodite Jones' book may help.


6) Timing is overall critical
as the use of numerology structure gives a very tight, strict corset to which all other story elements have to stand back and obey. Therefore no use for accidental complications.
Therefore preparation of the initial day in full length to the second.

Remember the 911 call version with the female voice "less than a minute" (at 1:00):
[youtube:12rru9sk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuzVZgfExjU[/youtube:12rru9sk]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuzVZgfExjU

Therefore no double or other person who could potentially mess up the tight schedule, no dummy, no "no body", the smallest number of  people involved possible for throwing the snowball (planting the seed). The rest would develop without requiring the director's immediate presence - if prepared properly.


7) Subjects, Staffing and Affiliates
At least a dozen potential subjects could have been targetted by Michael's disappearance. After having been digging into some of the most disgraceful realities in Michael's life, California and the U.S., I would not limit the impact of Michael's disappearance to only one or a few of these realities. I think he's hitting the nail on several huge subjects at the same time.

If timing were the most critical factor to proof "it was all made up according to an underlaying timing framework", staffing and affiliates would be critical as well as they would have to be the most reliable ones in keeping the once agreed schedule.
This excludes per definition any cooperation with someone who has an agenda on his own, contradicting the main intention. This does not exclude support from official sides but there's only one masterplan and not two. Side shows may be possible but only if not causing any conflict or complication to the main goal.


8) 7/11
There is no reason to have to believe that many more than 7 must be in or that any authorities / offices / agencies must be in or that it must be a joint venture with some authority or agency. Don't forget that ALL information was initiated by either Ben, TMZ or the family who fed the media and that mainstream media ran even with cut-together inconsistant footage just to have something on air. What we learned in the first days came either from "controlled" sources or was media-fabricated from "hear-say" thus part of the avalanche.
If any authority or agency would be participating, they must control also the voices of the family which I am having a very hard time to believe in view of the many interviews, contradicting and sometimes questionable TV productions, tweets of family members etc.
IMO authorities are not on the right but on the left shore.

This is the dream team - given that Michael played the key role but time warp was being applied:
- Michael (snowball thrower)
- Doc Murray (assistant snowball thrower)
- Jermaine (assistant snowball approver and voice for the silent)
- one doc from UCLA (assistant snowball approver if Murray had not the overall say there)
- Craig Harvey (assistant snowball describer and approver)
- Ben Evenstad (assistant snowball approver and snowfield preprator)
- an informer (assistant spectators' company and snowfield-to-witness-converter)
- Katherine and
- Michael's kids.

Makes 7 key players and 11 in the basic team.

Harvey Levin (assistant snowball distributor, snowfield preparator and avalanche accelerator) may be bound by contract just like Kenny Ortega (assistant artistic snowfield preparator) and the paramedics / dancers / bodyguards / Kai Chase etc.

I am not sure about the judge but I think he will do what he has to do anyway - either following a script and being on the payroll or doing his job independently.
The number of additional staff being "in" or "just being paid" or "just doing their regular job as always" will depend on the key subject of what needed to be exposed. If court rooms needed to be exposed, they will do their job as is. If police needed to be exposed, they will do whatever they usually do. Which brings me to:


9) Authorities must do their job properly
and if they don't it's the witnesses task to raise their voice about it.

Quote
The Coroner Takes Away Michael's Medicine
[youtube:12rru9sk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VutOZnN8BBI[/youtube:12rru9sk]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VutOZnN8BBI

How come those garbage bins were still out in the street when "evidence" is being collected by authorities and police officers are on site? Is their content not "evidence"?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: peacock7 on April 25, 2011, 09:52:49 AM
I mean no harm, but I am floored that some think that MJ did this thing just to save his life or expose the NWO.  MJ seems to have been freer to do so much with film/art than he had ever been before 6-25-09.  He just loves disguises.

TS mentioned that MJ hoaxed for many reasons.  I didn't need TS to tell me that.  I knew that from over a year and a half ago.

From jump street, some of us have been calling it Thriller II, and especially after watching This Is It.  What happened to that theory?  In my estimation, that is mainly what MJ is doing.  I felt it since I read up on the Dome Project.

I also believe strongly that I've seen MJ many places since 6-25-09.  This also proves to me that he wants it documented how many places he has shown up going back to when Janet performed Scream on what was it, the VH1's?  I think he was at Grammys and clapped for his children.  I think he was at BET Awards (dancer), Planet Hollywood, Omer's WBSS video and on and on.  Maybe it is just me, but that is what I believe.  

Also, what about Halloween 2009?  These appearances, shows me that he wants to prove how Gifted he is to have the nerve to pull 'em off.  And not to forget the times, he's probably "played" Murray, even in stills.

And on the below link they talk about making the short film into a full-length movie (Thriller II).  This has always been the perspective I've had having to do with the hoax.  I'm not saying MJ doesn't have other reasons to hoax his "death", at all.  I'm just saying that to me, making Thriller II is one of the main ones.  He will not allow anyone else to do it before he does it as a Reality Film.  After this one, they can still do another horror one, but MJ wants his to hit first.

I also think MJ is working with Taj on the Code-Z Series.  I think it all ties in together.

Why would there be a need for a real corpse?  And when was it transported?  The only way I can see a corpse is if MJ really "died."  And......., I don't think that is what TS means.

http://screenrant.com/michael-jackson-t ... rad-84738/ (http://screenrant.com/michael-jackson-thriller-movie-schrad-84738/)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 25, 2011, 09:58:19 AM
Oooo! What a super-fab post Grace! I really like the diagram of storytelling as applied to the physical alleged events of 6/25/09.

I think we have cracked it. Hoax exposed MJ-- Oly Oly Oxen Free!  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 25, 2011, 10:03:12 AM
I don't think there would be a need to involve the sheriffs rescue helicopters team, or the police......

At this point of the hoax, when Mj's body was being transfered, two coroners get out of the van....THEY HAVE TO BE IN ON IT.  I think one is 'Craig Harvey and the other one Ed Winter....both need to know, because there either is NO BODY or whatever on that stretcher.......The rest of the crew there, don't have to know a thing..they just did their job.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: peacock7 on April 25, 2011, 10:13:39 AM
Great post Souza.  That is what I was getting at in my post below.  IT WAS ALL AN ILLUSION.  FICTION.  And still is.

viewtopic.php?f=127&t=18777#p323977 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=18777#p323977)

Great post Grace.  I love it.  I would re-post your and Souza's posts, but I personally don't like to quote posts that are wayyyyyyyyyy long.  Sometimes, it takes too long to load.

We have cracked the Code.  Unity Consciousness in action.

"Annie is you ok?"
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 25, 2011, 10:39:32 AM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Where it was "filmed" Andrea? At Staples Center?

I answered that in my post scorpionchik - it was filmed at Carolwood before anyone knew Michael lived there - Souza had suggested that as well earlier.  It explains why hardly anybody was hanging about outside "Michael Jackson's" house when there's emergency vehicles outside for 40 minutes, and why only the Ben Evensted crew were there with no other paps.

Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "Andrea"
So if anyone could successfully pull off a fake death, it would be the FBI.  They investigate this stuff and know the ins and outs of what needs to be done and the best way to do it.  Only they can get away with it because they’re the FBI.
 

Exactly, therefore I wrote above some important statement you should count.  
 
-   The helicopter crew are actors (just look at the action footage!) including an actor under the white sheet on the stretcher who sits up nicely for everybody keeping a close eye.

There is NO ACTORS if FBI is involved. Jeeze!

-    The  when it’s Michael Jackson and the FBI clueing you in.

Why FBI needs  cluing us? Are you people really believe that FBI is a Hollywood or some kind of cheap club of morons....? You have to be careful what you are talking about. Help Michael to hoax under Michael's direction/hoax plan to make sure all numerology is met, then make sure to give us  clues, but also make sure Michael's enemy's did not get  this is a hoax, what else....? You are controversing  theories all over. People, be serious.

I used the word "actors" because the FBI refers to paid actors on their website about the article on fake deaths which coincided with the one year anniversary of Michael's fake funeral.  The FBI know how to best pull off a fake death so if they deem paid actors necessary than maybe that's what they did.  Remember that they're the experts at death faking. And that was only one of my scenarios.  The FBI may not have used actors at all, maybe just their own agents.  And if that’s the case, the agents are “acting” in their roles.

And they leave clues to avoid entrapment.  The numerology leaves a path and shows deliberate planning. I never said Michael's enemies wouldn't figure it out but initially, they were probably fooled like the rest of the world.  And as the hoax gets more obvious, the intent of it shows it was not just to fool his enemies or prevent them from finding out.  The hoax is not just a sting and the FBI's involvement is only one aspect of the hoax.  The FBI help came in particularly useful on June 25th and the "other day" whenever that was.  The FBI helped Michael "pull it off".  We already know there was an "other day" thanks to Ben's slip-up.  I guess it's just figuring out what happened when.  If you don’t agree that’s fine but we’re all on the same team here trying to figure out what happened that day (and the other day).

And Grace – amazing post, all of it!  The 3 acts to story structure makes a lot of sense and TS even started this thread with “It’s now time for the third level!”  We’re trying to figure out how Michael succeeded and tying together all the loose ends to resolve what really happened (or didn’t happen) on June 25th. This is great, I think we're getting somewhere.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Lemonbread904 on April 25, 2011, 12:09:41 PM
Guys, this may be off the topic. But looking at the picture with Tito, Marlon, Jermaine and Jackie, I have notice that Randy is nowhere to be found. Do you guys have any insights on why the majority of the pictures that are being presented is only showing those 4 brothers. It seems like the only time we hear anything about Randy it would be in regards to his ex-wife. It seems that he just dropped off the face of the earth.  Another thing that I find interesting is this, remember it was said that Randy was staying with Michael during the time leading up to 6/25/2009. It was even stated that he was at the house when it happened.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 25, 2011, 01:03:52 PM
@Grace....very nice post, indeed.  Thank you very much for putting all that effort and hard work together....much appreciated.  One thing I consistently notice in these random YouTube videos of things afterwards....why do they all park on the street?  It's a huge driveway....wouldn't they want more privacy?  Being on the street for all to see, makes for some great, natural photo ops.  This question came up also about the moving van and the lady walking with the officer.    

@Souza.....your post was also very interesting and thought provoking.  Thank you, too, for all the effort and hard work here...again, very appreciated.

Blessings Always
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: scorpionchik on April 25, 2011, 01:36:34 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "Andrea"

Why FBI needs  cluing us? Are you people really believe that FBI is a Hollywood or some kind of cheap club of morons....? You have to be careful what you are talking about. Help Michael to hoax under Michael's direction/hoax plan to make sure all numerology is met, then make sure to give us  clues, but also make sure Michael's enemy's did not get  this is a hoax, what else....? You are controversing  theories all over. People, be serious.

Scorpion, this is not the first time you ridicule someone else in a very rude way. If you have an opinion other than Andrea's, state it with respect and don't petronize people. And I am VERY serious about that.

I am not ridiculing, I am challenging statements,just my way.  I was getting a lot  same kind of replies also and let it go, not looking for shoulder to cry on. Discussion is discussion, could be hot, cold, different every time (except for assault); we are not here to pamper each other and definitely will understand eventually.  
However, you don't have to every time jump in as a BIASSED "advocate" and remind that you are an administrator with some sort of threating intonation, I remember that and certainly not afraid of it. It is funny.
Let me seriously remind you also that many very good members left this site because OF YOU, not me, including your partner Mo. Something to think about.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 25, 2011, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "Andrea"

Why FBI needs  cluing us? Are you people really believe that FBI is a Hollywood or some kind of cheap club of morons....? You have to be careful what you are talking about. Help Michael to hoax under Michael's direction/hoax plan to make sure all numerology is met, then make sure to give us  clues, but also make sure Michael's enemy's did not get  this is a hoax, what else....? You are controversing  theories all over. People, be serious.

Scorpion, this is not the first time you ridicule someone else in a very rude way. If you have an opinion other than Andrea's, state it with respect and don't petronize people. And I am VERY serious about that.

I am not ridiculing, I am challenging statements,just my way.  I was getting a lot  same kind of replies also and let it go, not looking for shoulder to cry on. Discussion is discussion, could be hot, cold, different every time (except for assault); we are not here to pamper each other and definitely will understand eventually.  
However, you don't have to every time jump in as a BIASSED "advocate" and remind that you are an administrator with some sort of threating intonation, I remember that and certainly not afraid of it. It is funny.
Let me seriously remind you also that many very good members left this site because OF YOU, not me, including your partner Mo. Something to think about.
You just crossed a line. Time to cool down for a few days.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 25, 2011, 01:53:04 PM
It's so nice to come back to old material and review it.
Honestly, it becomes a pleasure because we find so many more aspects in it.

OK, I was asking in my previous post under 5) what were on stake to have to prove that the story was made up (or from the opponent point of view: that Murray was guilty).
Under 9) I was asking whether authorities did execute a proper job as expected.

The following quotes may give an impression of what may be/was going on behind curtains and what it is that may really be at stake (looking only at one of potential exposure areas, not all of the b.m. is proven evidence).

Quote
Michael Jackson’s family disappointed with court ruling, says Randy Jackson
Posted by News2 on June 23, 2010 in Entertainment

MJ brother Randy JacksonLondon, June 23 (ANI): Legendary singer Michael Jackson’s youngest brother Randy Jackson has said that his family is disappointed with the court ruling in favour of the King of Pop’s doctor Conrad Murray.

The court allowed Murray to keep his medical licence after being charged for the ‘Thriller’ star’s death. Randy has said that he has faith in the judicial process.

His written statement came a week after a Los Angeles Superior Court judge declared that he did not have the authority to suspend the licence of Murray, reports The Mirror.

“The recent court proceedings have been difficult for us as a family,” Jackson wrote in his statement.

“However, it is a necessary process that we are well prepared to endure in our fight for justice for Michael,” he added.

The statement said the Jackson family was disappointed in the ruling, but expressed support for the California Attorney General”s office, which sought to suspend Murray”s medical licence until his case is decided.

“Despite our strong feelings about the outcome, we have continued respect and faith in Judge Michael Pastor, the Deputy District Attorney David Walgren and our judicial system,” said the statement. (ANI)
http://news2.in/entertainment/michael-jackson%E2%80%99s-family-disappointed-with-court-ruling-says-randy-jackson/

I don't know what you felt reading the above but when somebody tells me that he's having continued respect and faith in a specific person due to his position in a system... well my alarm clocks went on immediately.
Looking up Mr. David Walgren brought me to the following interesting article.

Quote
Jackson Prosecutors' Internal War
by Gerald Posner
February 4, 2010 | 10:46pm

BS Top - Posner Chernoff Getty Images; AP Photo Will the L.A. District Attorney’s office blow yet another big case? Gerald Posner on the internal battles that helped delay the charges expected against Dr. Conrad Murray today. Plus, read Gerald Posner's report on Conrad Murray's defense attorney.

Will they blow it again?

The Los Angeles District Attorney's office, which has seen a two-decade streak of losing its highest-profile Hollywood cases, from Robert Blake to O.J. Simpson, is supposed to start its latest trial of the century today. So far, with Dr. Conrad Murray expected to turn himself in to face involuntary manslaughter charges, they're off to a rough start.

A retired senior Los Angeles police official and a Los Angeles-based defense attorney, both familiar with the specifics of the Michael Jackson death probe, describe a series of angry battles, encompassing which DA would handle the case, what charges should be brought and whether to go to a grand jury or have a preliminary hearing. This partly explains the long delay in moving forward with the case, which has puzzled so many observers. These fights, the sources said, even pitted prosecutors against their own Bureau of Investigation. Such accounts dovetail with a TMZ report yesterday that the DA's office has been feuding with the L.A. Police Department, and that today's anticipated arraignment of Dr. Murray might even be indefinitely postponed due to disagreements between the two about how he should be arrested and processed.

"They have no choice but to deliver an indictment or there would be hell to pay."

The defense attorney said that war among the prosecutors started last September, three months after the pop superstar died of a drug overdose. The first skirmish, a winner-take-all affair, featured two of the DA office's most powerful figures, Major Crimes's territorial chief, Patrick Dixon, and William Hodgman, the chief of Target Crimes. After Jackson's death, the Los Angeles police had dealt only with the Target Crimes Division, which describes itself as doing work on arson, crimes against peace officers, stalking and threat assessment, and child abductions. It is not clear why Target Crimes got the case in the first place. But Dixon was adamant that his Major Crimes unit, which handles all celebrity cases, should have jurisdiction. When Hodgman dug in his heels, the dispute escalated straight to the desk of the District Attorney, Steve Cooley.

• Gerald Posner: Conrad Murray’s Defense Attorney Is the Next Johnnie CochranCooley, the son of an FBI agent and a career prosecutor, is the first Los Angeles County District Attorney in 70 years to be re-elected to a third term. He has a no-nonsense reputation, and sided with Dixon, much to the chagrin of Target Crimes, which had by then put in more than two months of work.

Ed Chernoff, Murray’s Houston lawyer, knew around this time that there was something wrong when in late August, a Los Angeles police detective told him, “Hodgman is going to be taken off the case.”

“Why,” Chernoff asked.

“There’s something going on at the DA’s office.”

“I had a warm relationship with Hodgman,” Chernoff told me. The two exchanged information, and worked together in vain to try and stop the late August release of a sealed search warrant in Houston. Hodgman had even promised to call Chernoff and discuss the case before the DA settled on any charges.

The move to Major Crimes may have ended the fight over turf, but once it was there, more problems followed. David Walgren, a respected veteran who is also handling the Roman Polanski case, took on the assignment. He had no rapport with Chernoff as a starter.

“When I would call him and say, ‘Hi, this is Ed Chernoff. What’s going on?’ He would say, ‘No comment.’ I’m not kidding. He wouldn’t talk to me at all.”

Chernoff wasn’t the only one having trouble adjusting to Walgren. Throughout the fall, Walgren was at odds with Dominick Rivetti, Chief of the DA’s Bureau of Investigation. According to the former police official, who counts many current members of the DA's office as friends, some of Rivetti's investigators had dubbed the Jackson probe "a shit case," and thought that if it were not for public and family pressure, there might not even have been a probe.

"Eight months of a costly investigation, in a bankrupt state," one prominent defense attorney told me, "they have no choice but to deliver an indictment or there would be hell to pay."

The O.J. Simpson trial cost the state $9 million and Michael Jackson's $2.7 million child abuse trial ended in an acquittal. The Robert Blake murder trial, which ended in a "not guilty" jury verdict, cost the state an estimated $5 million between the investigation and the trial.

Walgren, according to the police official, had contentious meetings with Rivetti's investigators, sometimes irate that they were unable to draw a firm consensus on the medical evidence needed for a higher charge. He was also disappointed when he initially reviewed the police evidence, which reportedly included conflicting conversations with medical experts to determine whether Murray's behavior in his treatment of Jackson, especially on the fatal night, fell outside the bounds of reasonable medical practice. And he was disappointed, says the police official, to discover that investigators had determined that Murray's medical past did not include a large dispensing history of opiates or pain pills—the types that were prescribed in significant amounts to Jackson by other physicians.

The early debate in Major Crimes was whether to seek a murder indictment or merely involuntary manslaughter. Evidently, says the source, voluntary manslaughter was not seriously considered. "It either was going to be strong enough to go after a murder charge, or they were going to settle for the safest charge,"[/b] he says.

At one impassioned meeting last November, a member of the Bureau of Investigation is said to have told Walgren, "How are we going to convince 12 people to understand all the medical terminology and believe Propofol killed him when our experts don't even know for sure." It was a turning point in the internal debate over what charge to pursue. By December, the consensus was that involuntary manslaughter was the charge on which the office had the greatest chance of obtaining a conviction. Walgren, according to an attorney who knows him well, says he's always been an advocate that over-charging is problematic. "He'd rather get a conviction on a smaller count than have someone walk free on a headline grabbing indictment," says his friend.

As a consensus swirled around involuntary manslaughter, the next fight was over whether to proceed to a grand jury to obtain an indictment—preventing the defense from getting an advance look at the prosecution's case—or to bring the matter for a hearing before a judge, as was done in the O.J. Simpson case. According to the retired police official, Walgren urged that the case be presented to a grand jury but was overruled by Dixon.

Prosecutors often joke that they can get a grand jury—which only receives handpicked evidence—to indict a ham sandwich for a crime, but there was fear in the office that a grand jury might not find the evidence developed by the investigators to be compelling enough to issue an indictment.

"This may be one of those rare cases where a grand jury of ordinary citizens is not ready to attach criminal liability to the doctor," prominent Los Angeles defense attorney, Mark Geragos, tells me. "The DA might feel better off in front of a judge."

Also, if there are internal doubts about the strength of the case, and how best to present complicated medical testimony to a jury, the District Attorney might want to do a test run through a preliminary hearing and afterward make adjustments for the trial.

"They did that on the USC case (a 2007 infanticide case against a USC student)," Geragos adds. "I destroyed the coroner in the preliminary hearing, and they hired a new expert to repair the damage for the trial." In that case, the DA's plan didn't pay off. A trial judge dismissed the charges.

In overruling Walgren, says the former police official, Dixon and others also decided they gained a strategic advantage in a preliminary hearing. In Los Angeles court jurisdiction, a case brought by indictment goes to the downtown courts. One brought by a preliminary hearing will go before the LAX Court, which has a higher demographic of black jurors. Says the attorney who is a friend of Walgren's: "Since Michael Jackson has been totally embraced now by the black community, it's better for the prosecution to have a large black jury pool."

That preliminary hearing could be held as soon as 10 days after Murray's arraignment, but it's not expected for several weeks since the defense is likely to use that time to digest all the documents they will receive from the prosecutors after Murray is officially charged. From there, the Jackson drama will move from the private to the public domain. When asked for comment on the internal acrimony so far, Sandi Gibbons, the Los Angeles District Attorney Public Information Officer responded: "We would not comment on such unfounded drivel."


Gerald Posner is The Daily Beast's chief investigative reporter. He's the award-winning author of 10 investigative nonfiction bestsellers, on topics ranging from political assassinations, to Nazi war criminals, to 9/11, to terrorism. His latest book, Miami Babylon: Crime, Wealth and Power—A Dispatch from the Beach, was published in October. He lives in Miami Beach with his wife, the author Trisha Posner.

For inquiries, please contact The Daily Beast at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-02-04/the-jackson-prosecutions-internal-war/p/

This is what TMZ had to say:
http://www.tmz.com/2010/02/04/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-d-a-district-attorney-involuntary-manslaughter-arrest-meeting/
http://www.tmz.com/2010/02/04/dr-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-lapd-feud-district-attorney/
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 25, 2011, 01:54:12 PM
Quote from: "scorpionchick"
Let me seriously remind you also that many very good members left this site because OF YOU, not me

And a whole bunch more of us STAY because of Souza. You are inconsequential with that attitude.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yulia on April 25, 2011, 02:32:45 PM
I hope the thread will stay on topic because I am highly interested only in the FBI whole situation regarding Michael and nothing else. I suppose the rest of people are too
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 25, 2011, 04:09:20 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
FBI all over the hoax from A to Z with his plan, then no numerology would be used, or no FBI at all.

Because?

Because the numerology fits with the Michael's  longtime ago planned hoax only (in which case he realized hoax with his friends rewarding couple of doctors and paramedics, and real corpse would be used here) and FBI will NOT follow Michael's hoax plan. Michael is NOT FBI's boss. We can't downgrade authorities, they will do their job to save person, but they will not follow that person's directions and they don't care who is it. They have enough power to realize hoax without other body and numerology, they have their hoax plans in reserve. The haox purpose to fool MJ enemy, then the "fact he died" is more than enough for them to get buy the hoax. why humerelogy, I don't see the point to waste time following exact times, unnecessary stress. Look at the hoax as a very serious operation, not the  hide find seek game.

Yes I agree with you almost completely. I just cannot explain the 333 pages of FBI files released by the FBI on 12/21 though. That's spooky, just-not-right, weird, and it's unexplainable as just a "coincidence".

Additionally, MJ could never pull off a hoax of this magnitude with a TRIAL attached to it, by himself without involving very high up assistance (the feds), and most likely from the FBI, as they would retain jurisdiction over local and state police and fire. I know this is a hoax, so he had to have help from somewhere. This is why I am receptive to the FBI involvement theory.

On the previous thread of TS, I was confused about who gave us all these numerologic clues. I thought that TS was trying to say that the FBI is giving us the numerology and when I asked if it is FBI who arranged all the memorial and funeral and all of the numerology and he wrote back that Elvis also was with the feds but he used numerology too. So what I'm trying to say is, all these 333 FBI files, making 666 upside down 999 etc comes from Michael himself. The numerology was Michael's wish, not FBI's. But FBI is of course helping him with that like giving 333 pages of FBI files. That is what I understood about the numerology part of the hoax.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 25, 2011, 04:14:34 PM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
I was watching the coroners press release, and  just realised he said "The only reason the coroner got involved was because no  doctor would sign the death certificate at the hospital  :o    :o

So if Murray had signed the death certificate, and autopsy wouldn't be necessary.  Why didn't the drs at UCLA, the one that called the time of death, sign the certificate??  

Hmmmmmmmmmm...maybe they didn't recognise the patient..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmdrNn3H ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmdrNn3HZcY&feature=related)
[youtube:182lhsd4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmdrNn3HZcY&feature=related[/youtube:182lhsd4]

Yes, when I first watched this I realized the same thing too 2good. Isn't it weird that ANY doctors signed it at UCLA? Why wouldn't they sign it? The only answer can be; because there was noone dead or someone dead but not Michael of course. So, the doctors knew something was going on.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 25, 2011, 06:40:51 PM
I never said this before, but my uncle was murdered 22 yrs ago.  I never spoke about it  because it is not something I like to talk about  I was very close to my uncle. When they brought him at the hospital, he was barely alive. When he died, the doctor signed the death certificate, not my aunt or my cousins, THE DOCTOR.. My uncle was a known person, he was a commander at the police force. When they declared him dead, it was the doctor who spoke in front of the camera, not my aunt nor my cousins, nor me nor my sibling. So when I saw this on June 25/2009 I automatically said, Michael hoaxed his death. A sibling signing the death certificate, because no doctor wanted to? Why is that? Like my doctor friend said, because he is alive, a doctor will not sign a death certificate and jeopardize his career for anyone not even for Michael Jackson, with all due respect, we love Michael with all of our heart. Now if this is not clear, I do not know what can make you all see that 1) it was not him in the ambulance, 2) or he went to the hospital and he was alive and left the country, just like Jermaine said it, he was long gone way before he reached the AIRPORT. Blessings everyone.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 25, 2011, 08:14:31 PM
LaToya didn't sign the DC, she was the witness. We don't know who signed it, because that part is blacked out.

Sorry to hear about your uncle.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 25, 2011, 08:26:40 PM
must be the FBI .. then that way you can do this, bind to the paramedics, LAPD, the doctor, who is Murray?, coroner..
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 25, 2011, 09:11:32 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
LaToya didn't sign the DC, she was the witness. We don't know who signed it, because that part is blacked out.

Sorry to hear about your uncle.


Thanks Souza it is ok it is 22 yrs he passed. Please watch this video interview with Barbara Walters she admits to sign the death certificate. please watch at 4:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmEKYFYP6dI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmEKYFYP6dI)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 25, 2011, 09:18:40 PM
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
LaToya didn't sign the DC, she was the witness. We don't know who signed it, because that part is blacked out.

Sorry to hear about your uncle.


Thanks Souza it is ok it is 22 yrs he passed. Please watch this video interview with Barbara Walters she admits to sign the death certificate. please watch at 4:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmEKYFYP6dI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmEKYFYP6dI)

I never saw that video, that's BS, she is definitely not authorized to sign such a document.

Quote
Who Can Legally Sign a Death Certificate?

In the event of someone's passing, a death certificate needs to be issued as an official declaration. Because of the importance of this document, very few people are legally authorized to sign it.

Medical Professionals
In some states such as Washington, physicians, advanced registered nurse practitioners and physician assistants can sign a death certificate. They can only do this however, if they were the deceased's primary caregiver.

Medical Examiners
Medical examiners are responsible for signing the death certificates of any decedents in their jurisdiction. They will sign all death certificates in those instances when there is no primary caregiver. In some situations a medical examiner will also be responsible for investigating the cause of death as well.

Health Officers
Health officers can sign the death certificate if there is no primary care giver and the decedent died of natural causes. If an investigation into the death is required, the responsibility of the death certificate is no longer the health officer's. It is then the responsibility of the coroner, or medical examiner.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7447667_can-l ... z1Kajtv0d2 (http://www.ehow.com/facts_7447667_can-legally-sign-death-certificate_.html#ixzz1Kajtv0d2)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 25, 2011, 09:43:48 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
LaToya didn't sign the DC, she was the witness. We don't know who signed it, because that part is blacked out.

Sorry to hear about your uncle.


Thanks Souza it is ok it is 22 yrs he passed. Please watch this video interview with Barbara Walters she admits to sign the death certificate. please watch at 4:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmEKYFYP6dI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmEKYFYP6dI)

I never saw that video, that's BS, she is definitely not authorized to sign such a document.

Quote
Who Can Legally Sign a Death Certificate?

In the event of someone's passing, a death certificate needs to be issued as an official declaration. Because of the importance of this document, very few people are legally authorized to sign it.

Medical Professionals
In some states such as Washington, physicians, advanced registered nurse practitioners and physician assistants can sign a death certificate. They can only do this however, if they were the deceased's primary caregiver.

Medical Examiners
Medical examiners are responsible for signing the death certificates of any decedents in their jurisdiction. They will sign all death certificates in those instances when there is no primary caregiver. In some situations a medical examiner will also be responsible for investigating the cause of death as well.

Health Officers
Health officers can sign the death certificate if there is no primary care giver and the decedent died of natural causes. If an investigation into the death is required, the responsibility of the death certificate is no longer the health officer's. It is then the responsibility of the coroner, or medical examiner.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7447667_can-l ... z1Kajtv0d2 (http://www.ehow.com/facts_7447667_can-legally-sign-death-certificate_.html#ixzz1Kajtv0d2)


Exactly my point,  I agree with you, why did she say that? The death certificate is suppose to be signed by a doctor not by her.. So there must be something that does not add up. Usually Barbara Walters is a straight forward person, she would tell her what do you mean you signed the death certificate? Something is off.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 26, 2011, 01:53:45 AM
I've been thinking lately. You know how mostly TS doesn't entirely 100% confirm things or plays the DA, knowing we're brainstorming and just inserts details or possibilities here and there. What if, an if only, it isn't just a handful of people involved in this hoax, the fewer the better as TS hints at. What if there really are many many people in on it, and the real people not in on it are the fans, and the general public.

So in on it could conceivably be:

- everyone involved in the TII set and hieracrchy, MJ's staff including Karen Faye playing her role in riling up the fans for justice
- major players in Sony, AEG,
- all those who went to the funeral IF it really was with green screen.
- all Michael's family and even some extented members
- many media including all TMZ staff, LKL and some staff, Riviera, Oprah and some staff, and perhaps dozens of other media players that have provided many good hoax articles, pics and videos
- many other friends of MJ's, many celebrities
- many major movie producers/directors/writers etc.
- some major sponsers such as Coco cola, SNickers, Skittles
- some at FOREst Lawn
-the DA, judge, many lawyers and legal people/actors in the trial
- the ambulance and fire workers at 71
- several/many at UCLA and the Coroner's building
- doctors such as Klein, and other medical people
- many in the FBI, LAPD
- politically in the state of California including Arnold S.
-Federal level includig Obama and others

I know it seems outragious but there are still a lot of puzzling inconsistancies with the current theories. all4loveandbelieve makes a good point asking why BARbara did not ask about LaToya signing the DC.  And we all puzzled over whether Oprah was in or not but she has been involved a lot in the hoax framework with interviews. THere is also confusion amongst us as to how the FBI can be involved, yet MJ also includes much numerology, BIBLE related details and very obvious trail of clues and humor in the hoax, which would not make sense if they were only interested in solving crime cases.

Remember how TS posted about the FBI story,
Quote
TS_comments wrote:Next is the FBI “Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets” article, conveniently dated 9-3-2010 which is the one year anniversary of MJ’s fake funeral and empty casket burial! “It’s a morbid tale involving phony death certificates, staged funerals with paid actors, and coffins buried with no bodies, but in the end, it’s just a financial fraud scheme like thousands of others we investigate every year. Earlier this month in Los Angeles, the fourth and final member of an insurance fraud ring was convicted in federal court.” http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/se (http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/se) ... eral-scams

WE also puzzle over why on the 25th other media were not there, only NPG, yet at UCLA the media came out enmass. To ask if they were wondering to themselves how they missed the notification that MJ has had a medical emergency and 911 was called is I think realistic, since MJ is so high profile. Could they all be in on it, not TMZ only, but TMZ has been elected to be in lead position for this story. If as Souza suggests that the footage supposedly on the 25th was taken even a year before, also the other media would be highly suspicious if MJ just suddenly shows up at the hospital. Something’s fishy to me. How could the media all be so stupid, I just don't buy it.

Grace, I enjoyed your post on stories and their structure. I think that describes the Bible as well, and God’s masterpiece for history also as universal or galactic entertainment as well as other messages/significance leaving millions in endless debate over interpretation, paradoxes, inconsistencies, etc.  Similarly this MJ hoax is also a major story involving those elements, as TS, Michael, and "Michael" have hinted at.  117, 71, 17, 7 = the GOD element, aspects of TII, the memorial, MJ lyrics, interviews talking about being like Jesus show deliberate connection. I'm not saying the hoax is overall evil either, and not necessarily connected to TPTB, Illuminati, NWO, Anti-Christ, Bilderbergs, etc. This may be a glorious sunflower sprouting out of dark dirt, involving perhaps the resistance, Faction 1 or 2??, a beautiful GOD-thing. We only think we know who's on the good side and who's on the evil side. It all depends on who's perspective with this, and I sure don't know anymore than anyone.

I'm just throwing that out there just to think about the opposite to the 3 in on it theory or a bare minimum being the best.
Your post on the many internal legal feuds, shows the beauty of this hoax, the same GOD element that gave Gideon the victory in the BIBLE, where the enemy simply destroyed each other.

Quote
by peacock7 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:52 am
I mean no harm, but I am floored that some think that MJ did this thing just to save his life or expose the NWO. MJ seems to have been freer to do so much with film/art than he had ever been before 6-25-09. He just loves disguises.

TS mentioned that MJ hoaxed for many reasons. I didn't need TS to tell me that. I knew that from over a year and a half ago.

From jump street, some of us have been calling it Thriller II, and especially after watching This Is It. What happened to that theory? In my estimation, that is mainly what MJ is doing. I felt it since I read up on the Dome Project.

I also believe strongly that I've seen MJ many places since 6-25-09. This also proves to me that he wants it documented how many places he has shown up going back to when Janet performed Scream on what was it, the VH1's? I think he was at Grammys and clapped for his children. I think he was at BET Awards (dancer), Planet Hollywood, Omer's WBSS video and on and on. Maybe it is just me, but that is what I believe.

Also, what about Halloween 2009? These appearances, shows me that he wants to prove how Gifted he is to have the nerve to pull 'em off. And not to forget the times, he's probably "played" Murray, even in stills.

And on the below link they talk about making the short film into a full-length movie (Thriller II). This has always been the perspective I've had having to do with the hoax. I'm not saying MJ doesn't have other reasons to hoax his "death", at all. I'm just saying that to me, making Thriller II is one of the main ones. He will not allow anyone else to do it before he does it as a Reality Film. After this one, they can still do another horror one, but MJ wants his to hit first.

I also think MJ is working with Taj on the Code-Z Series. I think it all ties in together.

Why would there be a need for a real corpse? And when was it transported? The only way I can see a corpse is if MJ really "died." And......., I don't think that is what TS means.
I really like your post. I've always thought and felt that this hoax is more about MJ's heart, and mind in ultimate God-inspired creativity, than about danger and evil, although there may be that as well. But I believe God is guiding MJ in this. (Or dare I say maybe even ET involvement, what do we really know!!)

Finally I have a question in regards to Souza's theory of the 25th of June ambulance at the house scene actually filmed way back. There are plenty of people hanging around 100 Carolwood after the death news announcement hits that day and the next day as seen in videos, so when exactly would you say that fans, cars, and media would have started pouring in? Would not the first arrivers wonder that the rented house front street was empty, or did Michael make sure some of the same actors or people in on it were there to make it feel like the ambulances had just left and fans were in shock to make it seem like they were there all along?

SOrry my shift key is sticking. :(  :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 26, 2011, 03:30:03 AM
La Toya was the one to bring the murder idea up. She was really convincing in this video.
Except that the tremor of her lips as indication of her personal uproar were missing  
But the eyes - really good. ;)  
La Toya is mentioned on the DC as a witness for MJ's personal data.

In general, there's several sets of a DC and a signiture:
1) DC is correct - signiture by an authorized person.
The signiture is blacked out for confidentiality reasons.
Scenario: true, correct document.
(Leaking the document to the media means not properly handling it as to confidentiality.)

(Allowing confidentiality only for the signing part - but why let the document as such get leaked without any corrective measures? - are there any special exceptions for allowing infringement of VIP's personality rights? Would this be a so called "public interest"? Were there any corrective measures taken against the "leaking sources" or is everybody happy with the fact that those sources do exist, despite a potential illegal action?)

2) DC is correct - signiture by a non-authorized person.
The signiture is blacked out for secrecy reasons...
Scenario: false document, falsification executed by an private person - with knowledge / involvement of family / authority.
Potential fraud / corruption case from family / authority side.

3) DC is correct - signiture by nobody.
The signiture blacked out for secrecy reasons.
Scenario: false document, falsification executed by "nobody" - with knowledge of authority / potentially without involvement of family.
Potential fraud / corruption case from media / authority side.

4) DC is not correct - signiture by an authorized person.
The signiture is blacked out for secrecy reasons.
Scenario: false document, falsification executed by authority - with knowledge / involvement of authority and potential knowledge / involvement of family.
Professional misconduct / potential fraud / corruption enabling case from authority side.

5) DC is not correct - signiture by a non-authorized person.
The signiture is blacked out for secrecy reasons...
Scenario: false document, falsification executed by private person - with knowledge / involvement of authority and family.
Potential fraud / corruption case.
As everything is fabricated "as if", this could be part of a sting operation or an AIR project.
No entrapment (everybody could have known that unauthorized persons cannot sign a DC).

6) DC is not correct - signiture by nobody.
The signiture is blacked out for secrecy reasons.
Scenario: false document, falsification executed by "nobody" - with knowledge of authority / potentially without involvement of family.
Potential fraud / corruption case from media / authority side.
As everything is fabricated, this could be part of a sting operation or an AIR project (media part / public opinion steering only).

In the specific case of MJ's death certificate:
In the Certification of Vital Record, Coroner Lt. Cheryl MacWillie is mentioned again.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/superstarpaulc/misc%20pics/front.jpg)

If she'd have signed the DC, her signiture with a "y" would likely cross the bottom border line of the signiture box on the form.
(http://nonstopinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mj-death-certificate.jpg)

Same applies to La Toya's signiture with a "J":
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/devilson9991/LaToyaJackson.jpg)

I cannot identify that the black bar would cover more than the black lower line in that box (without any character of a signiture crossing the line).
Therefore I'd say, the form is filled out but not signed and corresponds from what we know so far to case scenario #6.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 26, 2011, 06:33:48 AM
This is old news, but I think could be important.......Why would a medical report, based on MJ's real state of health,  suddenly be "MISSING" ????  This proves that AEG didn't actually get a medical report on Michael, before going ahead with the concerts and signing the contract...it was resheduled for July 11th......Hmmmmmmmm.  

Michael Jackson medical report missing
Aug 5, 2009, 9:20 GMT


Michael Jackson's medical examination record has gone missing.

Insurers for the late pop icon's 'This Is It' 50-date London residency were astounded when the report they received from Dr. David Slavit declared the singer to be in perfect health, joking it appeared to have been "based on the body of an astronaut".

Officials at insurers Robertson Taylor were puzzled as to why the ear, nose and throat specialist's report made no mention of the 'Thriller' star's well-publicised health difficulties - including a severely burnt scalp, broken leg and extensive cosmetic surgery - and demanded their own tests be carried out before agreeing to insure his shows for promoters AEG Live.An AEG spokesperson said: "AEG did not hire a doctor at any time in connection with securing insurance. Dr. David Slavit performed the medical exam which was submitted to the insurers as part of their underwriting.

"AEG has never received a copy of Dr. Slavit's medical exam. A second medical examination was scheduled in the UK when the tour arrived. The policy was issued in a fictitious name."

No-one has actually seen Dr. Slavit's original records of the medical and Robertson Jackson had wanted to do a full examination on July 11, the day after seeing the 'Bad' hitmaker perform a planned full rehearsal at London's O2 arena, where the shows were scheduled to take place.

However, because the star died of a suspected cardiac arrest on June 25 - after the insurance deal had been agreed but before "subject to" details had been verified - the promoters are now in dispute with the insurers over the validity of their agreement. The singer's medical certificate had been issued in the name M. Jones but this is said to be standard practice for celebrities to prevent any embarrassing personal health details leaking out.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/peopl ... rt-missing (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article_1493755.php/Michael-Jackson-medical-report-missing)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: peacock7 on April 26, 2011, 01:30:25 PM
Quote from: 2good2btrue
This is old news, but I think could be important.......Why would a medical report, based on MJ's real state of health,  suddenly be "MISSING" ????  This proves that AEG didn't actually get a medical report on Michael, before going ahead with the concerts and signing the contract...it was resheduled for July 11th......Hmmmmmmmm.  

Michael Jackson medical report missing
Aug 5, 2009, 9:20 GMT


"Michael Jackson's medical examination record has gone missing."

I don't think this PROVES anything as it pertains to AEG.  

It reminds me again of which came first, the chicken or the egg.  In other words, did AEG/Kenny Ortega and MJ get together to work/direct the HOAX first?  Did the rehearsals come first?  Did Culver Studios come first?  When was that picture of Kenny & MJ taken where MJ is behind the camera?  Did they do all of this, then at the last minute (March 09 - LMBO) they decided to make the FAKE announcement (alien invasion - LOL), then come up with fake contracts, statement of work, medical reports, phony articles (about fake health insurance exam) et al?  LOL!  I mean, MJ was in purr-fect health.  Then he was weak and frail and had to be force fed, etc.  

I think when Kenny mentioned feeding MJ chicken; it probably meant that he worried about MJ for overworking and forgetting to eat.  He cared for MJ so much that he wanted to make sure he could keep up his health for THIS IS IT - PERIOD.  Some took it to mean that MJ was on his last leg, was at death's door and so on.  If AEG was evil (meaning Kenny - because he really is the only player from AEG that mattered, if all of the other documents and hearsay was fake) then MJ could have been SLOWLY poisoned each and every time he rehearsed or was around Kenny.

There are pictures of the Brothers hugging Kenny a little too tight.  How could they?  If they thought that he and others at that evil company brought ill will, meant him no good and hired a doctor to keep MJ mind controlled until the Smooth Criminal = Doc Murray could actually kill MJ, then Papa Joe himself would have knocked Kenny out, and not let him direct/conduct Memorial a week later.  LMBO.

I don't buy that and never will.  There is no way that Joe Jackson, his wife and children would have allowed Kenny/AEG to do a darn thing Memorial and Funeral wise for MJ if they had been behind his "death."   I mean, and they trust them from 6-25-09 thru 9-3-09 to do the HD Directed Funeral?  Lol  Even some people at the Memorial and All Around the World - were mad at Kenny and AEG.  That is why it seemed so surreal.  I knew something wasn't right then.

In my opinion, all of the documents surrounding AEG was also planted and or outright just SCRIPTED.  For the most part, a script was followed by MJ and Team.  Although, I would bet that MJ has one of those photographic memories and didn't have to write everything down or all aspects having to do with his film.  But, a story has to start somewhere.  There has to be a Background, prelude, and synopsis and so on.  

I think all of the matters leading up to 6-25-09, was scripted and all part of the Hoax.  It had to be.  There is no other way around it.  The background had to be set.  Didn't they plant the seeds on 12-25-08?  Fake MJ is dead story.  MJ or double in wheelchair, and etc.  Lol.

So, for MOVIE purposes, one shouldn't be surprised if this doctor or this insurance man was quoted.  They could be fake names and/or, they could be getting paid.  Most actors/actresses/extras do.  Plus, can't we see some of them now.  MJ ((V)irtual man behind the curtain) (or his rep), "You don't have to pay me.  I just want to be a part of it.  I know that anything Michael Jackson touches, because of his respect for excellence, turns to GOLD."  Who wouldn't wish to be a part of the Greatest Show on Earth?

I love the points brought up about the house of cards falling down in the LAPD, what with the Chief retiring early and all of that.  I've always been of the mind that many of those high level Officials already knew it, but it was reinforced with this hoax that there ARE higher powered people than themselves that wanted to help MJ with this thing.  Plus, they have always known that his very glow and heart comes from and is protected by God.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: peacock7 on April 26, 2011, 02:13:38 PM
Quote
I really like your post. I've always thought and felt that this hoax is more about MJ's heart, and mind in ultimate God-inspired creativity, than about danger and evil, although there may be that as well. But I believe God is guiding MJ in this. (Or dare I say maybe even ET involvement, what do we really know!!)

Finally I have a question in regards to Souza's theory of the 25th of June ambulance at the house scene actually filmed way back. There are plenty of people hanging around 100 Carolwood after the death news announcement hits that day and the next day as seen in videos, so when exactly would you say that fans, cars, and media would have started pouring in? Would not the first arrivers wonder that the rented house front street was empty, or did Michael make sure some of the same actors or people in on it were there to make it feel like the ambulances had just left and fans were in shock to make it seem like they were there all along?

SOrry my shift key is sticking. :(  :)

Mjonmind, I enjoy reading your posts too.

In a way, I think there are rich and powerful Arabs protecting MJ and family to a certain extent.  I think he also has the right bodyguards around him now.  

As it pertains to ET involvement, I've wondered since hoax began if MJ has ascended already?  He was primed for it.  I know some don't want to believe it or whatever, but I've always believed in Omer/O-BEE (love him) since the MSM reported on his sitting with the family in the first row at Memorial.  He has Janet's profile also.

Anyway, in his song Red Nikes, he raps, "No one is close to him.  He's on another Planet."  Now really, why wouldn't EYE take that to mean that he was rapping about MJ/his father?  I did, but I wondered, what does he mean another planet?  Why did Akon say what he did about MJ thinking planets?  Why did MJ make sure he mentioned the word STAR when describing what his father taught them as it pertained to teaching them that no Star is EVER too far to reach?  Has MJ tripped to Mars?  Read up on Eisenhower's granddaughter and what she says about Mars.

MJ made the short film Captain EO.  His book - Moonwalker.  He did the song for the ET movie (One of the first if not the first of its kind), and so on.  I think Joe Jackson taught his sons about Ancient Aliens in the early 70s.  Some say that he is a Mason.  My father is a Mason.  But what some of us are learning is that White Masons didn't share everything with Black Masons.  They were forbidden to share a lot, but the Black ones did learn some things that the general public never knew, though some of us are catching up with some of the supposed teachings and secrets.  I remember my father telling my mother that his meetings were secret.  Lol.  Plus, my father did 32 years in the Military.

I said the above to say that yes, I do believe that it is possible that the Council of Twelve is also working with and protecting MJ (or some other ET/Angel).  Whatever is going on, MJ has been learned for a long time, but I think he is not ready to leave all of his loved ones if he has been offered THE higher dimension/reality of living in the now.

Again, I wonder.  Serenity's_Dream's Religious Symbolism thread also got me to thinking about many things MJ and the Stars related.  MJ knows so much truth until it is not even funny.  He knows the truth about King David, the African's true place in HIStory and on and on.  He loves Africa.  Omer was just quoted saying that South Africa is his favorite place to visit.  I wish I could go on vacation there - "Just Once."

I believe Michael know quite a lot.  Yet again, he just loves disguises and creativity, so hopefully as he marches on and makes his ARG/Film, he is Starting Something with the help of God and His Angels for the good of man and woman kind.

Hopefully, "We're Almost There."
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 26, 2011, 03:02:15 PM
Quote
Insurers for the late pop icon's 'This Is It' 50-date London residency were astounded when the report they received from Dr. David Slavit declared the singer to be in perfect health, joking it appeared to have been "based on the body of an astronaut".
(http://i54.tinypic.com/ka5rnq.jpg)

I just want to add to my list above. ALso the more documents we find the more it hints at many people knowing way more than we think.
Why are none of these people asking the questions we are asking after 2 years. ARE they stupid, clueless? Or are they all in on something huge and going with the humongous plan. Honestly we are probably completely underestimating the amount of manpower needed to pull this off. So here's 2 more. Maybe you guys can think of others.

- Several/many Saudi/Bahrainian Shieks, princes, other wealthy connections around the world
- some at LAX, perhaps some REAl estate people

I know when I was studying up the 911 thing years ago, which was a totally evil event done by evil people, I was amazed at how the news media made it sound like a couple of arab terrorist bungled their way into pulling this all off, when in reality if it was a hoax/lie it probably took the best of the best in technology, logisics, military, political arranging the thousands of details needed to be taken care of for it not to flop. TO observe something is so much easier than actually creating and carrying out, problem shooting for all potential mistakes and misfires which would make it flop. BUt this MJ hoax is a beautiful thing, a blessing to all people IMO! :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 26, 2011, 04:51:10 PM
Hi TS. Thanks for your latest post.
I hope everyone had a good holiday weekend.
:)

Part One.
Quote
If the jury—or the judge in a bench trial—has a reasonable doubt as to the defendant's guilt, the jury or judge should pronounce the defendant not guilty. Conversely, if the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.
Quote
The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution: that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts-

If the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.

The term connotes that evidence establishes a particular point to a moral certainty and that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible. It does not mean that no doubt exists as to the accused's guilt, but only that no Reasonable Doubt is possible from the evidence presented.
More than just Ben’s statement that a LAFD ambulance was at Michael’s house on 6/25/2009.
Quote
Fifth, there is more than one way to skin a cat. So let's look at it from the other side of the coin. If the FBI did not help out, then how could the Bel Air station not know something is fishy? Would they sit by quietly, and say nothing, while MJ hired actors and rented an ambulance to look just like the LAFD #71 ambulance? And why would the LAFD Captain say: [youtube:2iulqfm1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggewNtwvHJ4[/youtube:2iulqfm1]"On June 25, 2009, LAFD responded ... our paramedic ..."--if indeed the LAFD did NOT respond, and it was merely actors in a rented ambulance?
IMO Dr. Murray wanted MJ taken to the hospital to decrease his culpability [contribution] to MJ’s death. He didn’t want to sign the Death Certificate for the same reason. Dr. Cooper didn’t want to sign the DC either to decrease her culpability to contributing to his death. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culpability
Quote
At law
From a legal perspective, culpability describes the degree of one's blameworthiness in the commission of a crime or offense. Except for strict liability crimes, the type and severity of punishment often follow the degree of culpability.
Page 3 from autopsy report. Case Report: At 1811 hours, rigor mortis was not present throughout the body and lividity blanched with light pressure. Lavidity was consistent with a supine position.

This means no rigor present throughout the body and blood pooled on his backside because he was lying face up. The skin blanched because when light pressure was applied to the skin it stopped the surrounding blood that was pooled from having access to that spot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livor_mortis
Quote
Livor mortis or postmortem lividity one of the signs of death, is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin: when the heart is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. This discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, as the capillaries are compressed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supine_position
Quote
The supine position is a position of the body: lying down with the face up, as opposed to the prone position, which is face down, sometimes with the hands behind the head or neck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanch_(medical)
Quote
When skin is blanched, it takes on a whitish appearance as blood flow to the region is prevented.
Odontology Consult Page 24 from the autopsy report.
Request please examine for dental contribution to cause of death. Review of films…There were incomplete dental records from two Las Vegas dentists who performed restorative and surgical treatment for this decedent.

Page 10 of autopsy report. Witness: Detective Scott Smith of LAPD witnessed the autopsy.

Process of elimination to figure out what would be the most likely option used for a corpse in the death scene from the house to hospital to coroners.  This is in no particular order. This would be info necessary to decide what type of situation was used before the corpse/person died on or before 6/25/2009 at the house. This does not include the theory of a corpse/cadaver already being a long time dead [at coroners] prior to use in the death house/scene.  My theory of an already [prior to 6/25/2009] dead corpse being used is still what I believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospice
Quote
Hospice is a type of care and a philosophy of care that focuses on the palliation of a terminally ill patient's symptoms. These symptoms can be physical, emotional, spiritual or social in nature. The concept of hospice has been evolving since the 11th century. Then, and for centuries thereafter, hospices were places of hospitality for the sick, wounded, or dying, as well as those for travelers and pilgrims. The modern concept of hospice includes palliative care for the incurably ill given in such institutions as hospitals or nursing homes, but also care provided to those who would rather die in their own homes. It began to emerge in the 17th century, but many of the foundational principles by which modern hospice services operate were pioneered in the 1950s by Dame Cicely Saunders. Although the movement has met with some resistance, hospice has rapidly expanded through the United Kingdom, the United States and elsewhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palliative_care#Comparison_to_hospice_in_the_United_States
Quote
There is often confusion between the terms hospice and palliative care.
In the United States, hospice services and palliative care programs share similar goals of providing symptom relief and pain management. Non-hospice palliative care is appropriate for anyone with a serious, complex illness, whether they are expected to recover fully, to live with chronic illness for an extended time, or to experience disease progression. In contrast, although hospice care is also palliative, the term hospice applies to care administered in patients with a prognosis of 6 months or less to live
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminally_ill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_s ... _Euthnasia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_sedation#Sedation_vs._Euthnasia)
Sedation vs. Euthnasia
Quote
There is no evidence that titrated sedation causes the death of the patient and sedation does not equate with euthanasia. At the end of life sedation is only used if the patient perceives their distress to be unbearable, and there are no other means of relieving that distress. In palliative care the doses of sedatives are titrated (i.e. varied) to keep the patient comfortable without compromising respiration or hastening death. Death results from the underlying medical condition. For more information on the palliative care use of sedatives and the safe use of opioids see Opioids.

Patients (or their legal representatives) only have the right to refuse treatments in living wills, they cannot demand life saving treatments, or any treatments at all. However, once unconsciousness begins, as the patient is no longer able to decide to stop the sedation or to request food or water, the clinical team can act in the patient's best interests. A Living Will, made when competent, can under UK law, give a directive that they refuse 'Palliative Care' or 'Terminal Sedation', or 'any drug likely to suppress my respiration'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-of-life_care
Quote
In medicine, end-of-life care refers to medical care not only of patients in the final hours or days of their lives, but more broadly, medical care of all those with a terminal illness or terminal condition that has become advanced, progressive and incurable.

Regarding cancer care the United States National Cancer Institute writes:

When a patient's health care team determines that the cancer can no longer be controlled, medical testing and cancer treatment often stop. But the patient's care continues. The care focuses on making the patient comfortable. The patient receives medications and treatments to control pain and other symptoms, such as constipation, nausea, and shortness of breath. Some patients remain at home during this time, while others enter a hospital or other facility. Either way, services are available to help patients and their families with the medical, psychological, and spiritual issues surrounding dying. A hospice often provides such services. The time at the end of life is different for each person. Each individual has unique needs for information and support. The patient's and family's questions and concerns about the end of life should be discussed with the health care team as they arise...

Patients and their family members often want to know how long a person is expected to live. This is a hard question to answer. Factors such as where the cancer is located and whether the patient has other illnesses can affect what will happen. Although doctors may be able to make an estimate based on what they know about the patient, they might be hesitant to do so. Doctors may be concerned about over- or under-estimating the patient's life span. They also might be fearful of instilling false hope or destroying a person's hope.

End-of-life care requires a range of decisions, including questions of palliative care, patients' right to self-determination (of treatment, life), medical experimentation, the ethics and efficacy of extraordinary or hazardous medical interventions, and the ethics and efficacy even of continued routine medical interventions. In addition, end-of-life often touches upon rationing and the allocation of resources in hospitals and national medical systems. Such decisions are informed both by technical, medical considerations, economic factors as well as bioethics. In addition, end-of-life treatments are subject to considerations of patient autonomy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician_assisted_suicide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_support
Quote
Life support, in medicine is a broad term that applies to any therapy used to sustain a patient's life while they are critically ill or injured. There are many therapies and techniques that may be used by clinicians to achieve the goal of sustaining life.
Some examples include:
Feeding tubes
Inotropes
Total parenteral nutrition
Mechanical ventilation
Heart/Lung bypass
Urinary catheterization
Dialysis
Cardiopulmonary resuscitation
Defibrillation
Artificial pacemaker

These techniques are applied most commonly in the Emergency Department, Intensive Care Unit and, Operating Rooms. As various life support technologies have improved and evolved they are used increasingly outside of the hospital environment. For example a patient who requires a ventilator for survival are commonly discharged home with these devices. Another example includes the now ubiquitous presence of Automated external defibrillator in public venues which allow lay people to deliver life support in a prehospital environment.

The ultimate goals of life support depend on the specific patient situation. Typically life support is used to sustain life while the underlying injury or illness is being treated or evaluated for prognosis. Life support techniques may also be used indefinitely if the underlying medical condition cannot be corrected but a reasonable quality of life can still be expected.
[/b]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 26, 2011, 04:54:04 PM
Part two. :ugeek:

Resource articles to connect some people of being the source of info being feed to the media to make this death hoax seem real. Also theres some names that are familiar in regards to rumors. It becomes apparent by looking at the majority of these articles and based on the subject matter [drugs & doctors] that this is part of the sting operation. That part can not be overlooked when it comes to setting up the scene on 6/25/2009.

It was necessary to have a corpse for authenticity for witnesses testimony, if they don‘t know it‘s a hoax they can‘t be nervous on the witness stand. Keeping them out of the loop from the beginning helps to protect them from any legal issues that may arise out of this sting operation. No body and no ambulance would work if that was the only thing that had to be done to fool people into thinking MJ died. When thinking it all the way through to the court with Murray going to trial, the justice system is now under scrutiny. There is probably more people who are the targets of this sting operation and since they are in a position of power they really needed to believe MJ’s death was real, the only problem is it seems as though they haven’t figured it out.  8-)
 
July 6th, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/LA-Coroner-Confirms-Michael-Jackson-Will-Be-Buried-Without-His-Brain-115936.shtml
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/
Michael Jackson WAS murdered: Death certificate amended by coroner after police investigation
Last updated at 4:27 PM on 10th January 2010
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1242049/Michael-Jackson-WAS-murdered-Death-certificate-amended-coroner-police-investigation.html
Monday, January 11, 2010
http://entertainment.oneindia.in/music/international/2010/mj-murdered-death-certificate-110110.html
July 8th, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Death-Certificate-Issued-for-Michael-Jackson-116094.shtml
Quote
As the fans and media continue to wonder about Michael Jackson’s burial place and the day when the ceremony is to take place, the death certificate has been issued and leaked on the Internet a few hours ago. The cause of death is listed as “deferred,” perhaps pending toxicology results and further tests, as TMZ can confirm.
The celebrity gossip website and paparazzi agency, that can also boast with being the first media outlet to break the news of the star’s sudden and tragic death, got a hold of the document and posted it online. As TMZ also says, it holds no information as to why Michael Jackson died or whether the drugs found during a police raid to his home played any part in him suffering cardiac arrest on June 25, which eventually led to his demise.

“We’ve obtained a copy of Michael Jackson's death certificate. On cause of death, it says ‘deferred.’ It does say Forest Lawn Cemetery was a ‘temporary’ disposition of the body. […] Jackson’s occupation is listed as ‘musician.’ The type of business is ‘entertainment.’ Years in occupation – 45. As for race, the word ‘black’ is written. The informant – the person who gave the information for the death certificate – is listed as La Toya Jackson. The place of residence is not listed as the Holmby Hills home – rather, it’s listed as his parents’ home in Encino.” TMZ writes of the recently unveiled document.
Information I found out about after the fact when I wrote this:
Quote
The coroner’s office may have fallen victim of the scrutiny also to see if they would do their job correctly.
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=323759#p323759 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&p=323759#p323759)
Craig Harvey Coroner Spokesman, etc.-
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/07/la-county-coroners-staff-improperly-viewed-michael-jacksons-death-certificate.html
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1616765/michael-jacksons-death-certificate-improperly-viewed.jhtml
Also what I wrote about in the above thread. Ignore the info below this article, that is old news.
Quote
LAPD corruption investigation to result in few charges
November 8, 2001 Posted: 10:42 AM EST (1542 GMT)
LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- The criminal investigation into alleged widespread corruption in the Los Angeles Police Department is expected to conclude by December with no further prosecutions, Los Angeles District Attorney Steve Cooley said.

Since the corruption probe began nearly four years ago, eight officers have been charged with criminal misconduct. More than 70 officers in the LAPD's Rampart Division faced allegations of planting drugs and guns on suspects, fabricating arrest reports, beating suspects in custody and in some cases shooting unarmed, innocent people during gang sweeps.

"We are in the process of reviewing 45 cases, but we don't anticipate there will be additional charges filed," said Jane Robison, Cooley's spokeswoman.

Most of the cases involving alleged misconduct will be dismissed because of insufficient evidence or because the statute of limitations expired, sources said.

Revelations of alleged misconduct emerged after former officer Rafael Perez was caught stealing eight pounds of cocaine from a police evidence room in March 1998. Perez, who entered a plea agreement with state prosecutors, was granted state immunity in exchange for his cooperation in the corruption probe.
After more than 4,000 pages of sworn testimony, Perez described how officers in the anti-gang unit framed dozens of innocent people during gang raids west of downtown Los Angeles.

In one case that defined the magnitude of corruption, Perez described how he and his former partner, Nino Durden, shot Javier Francisco Ovando multiple times and conspired to cover up the shooting by planting a gun on him.

Ovando, paralyzed from the shooting, was convicted of assaulting the officers and sentenced to prison. He was released after investigators concluded that the shooting was unjustified. After serving three years in prison, Ovando sued the city of Los Angeles and settled the largest civil lawsuit in city history, $15 million.
In March, Durden entered a plea deal with state and federal prosecutors stemming from the Ovando shooting and other charges. Federal authorities have opened a separate investigation into the Rampart corruption scandal, including possible civil rights violations against Perez for his role in the Ovando shooting.

Durden is expected to serve at least seven years and eight months in state prison when he is sentenced. Perez was released from a five-year prison term in July.
The scandal has led to more than 100 criminal convictions being overturned. The city of Los Angeles also signed a consent decree with the U.S. Justice Department requiring federal oversight of the police department's management and training policies.

The city has paid over $30 million dollars in civil lawsuits related to the corruption scandal, but some city officials estimate the costs could exceed $125 million when the remaining cases are settled.

On Wednesday, Cooley outlined a series of written protocols to investigate allegations of corruption, including a Justice System Integrity Division to review cases involving probable cause against officers and a response team to investigate any officer involved shooting or in custody deaths on the scene.

"Never before in the 151-year history of the district attorney's office has that office issued written protocols which outline how, when and under what circumstances prosecutors will investigate allegations of criminal misconduct by law enforcement employees," Cooley said.

Had such a mechanism been in place earlier, Cooley said it "would have probably led to the early detection of disgraced former Officer Rafael Perez."
-- From CNN Producer Stanley Wilson
Some Interesting News On Chief Bratton.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/los-angeles-police-chief-william-bratton.html
Bratton plans to stay at LAPD until end of October
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/bratton-plans-to-stay-at-lapd-until-end-of-october.html
August 5, 2009
Quote
Mack said Bratton will "reunite" with Michael Cherkasky. Cherkasky and Bratton have been close associates. Before becoming chief, Bratton worked as a consultant for Cherkasky, advising governments in several countries on how to reform and build modern police forces. He also worked with the team of consultants that Cherkasky had assembled to monitor the LAPD for the U.S. Department of Justice as part of a consent decree forced on the department after the Rampart corruption scandal. As LAPD's chief, Bratton worked closely with Cherkasky, who remained the lead monitor overseeing the LAPD until the decree was terminated last month.

Cherkasky currently runs Altegrity, a company with several subsidiaries, one of which focuses on law enforcement and criminal justice issues. The firm consults with local police departments in emerging nations to teach them how to build and run their own justice systems. The company says it has trained thousands of people in anti-terrorism, counterinsurgency and police techniques in more than 50 countries, including Indonesia, Pakistan and Colombia. The company has also set up training camps to teach anti-terrorism and counter-insurgency tactics in Iraq and Afghanistan and has been involved in training local police in Iraq, its website says.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal
http://www.altegrity.com/Leadership.aspx
http://www.altegrity.com/Leadership.aspx#bratton

July 9th, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Dr-Arnold-Klein-Speaks-Out-on-Michael-Jackson-Accusations-116304.shtml
July 10th, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Michael-Jackson-Investigation-Could-Include-Homicide-LAPD-Says-116415.shtml
Quote
Michael Jackson’s grieving family and the millions of fans across the world are not the only ones to wait breathlessly for the toxicology results to return. The LAPD is also interested in them, to launch an investigation into the death of the superstar if foul play is believed to have been the case, as Chief William Bratton reveals as quoted by E! Online.

Quote
Speaking of the rumored drug addiction that Michael had, one of his former bodyguards told police as early as 2004 that the singer’s doctors were over-medicating him, TMZ says. Chris Carter, who quit his job after being told to go and fetch drugs for the singer, told officers that he knew of Jackson’s addiction and even witnessed its effects on the many visits the superstar paid the doctors each week. Every time they left, Michael looked “out of it” and subdued, Carter told police officers, revealing he personally had it from one of the docs that he was addicted to Demerol.

“Carter told detectives he would drive Jackson to doctors’ offices in New York, Florida and California. The Sheriff’s documents, obtained by TMZ, say ‘[Carter] named Dr. [Arnold] Klein, Dr. [Allan] Metzger, Dr. Barney from Solvang, Dr. Saunders and Dr. Farshchian.’ The notes continue, ‘Carter described JACKSON as being sharp and “in tune” prior to the doctor visits and afterward he would be out of it and sedated." The notes also say ‘Dr. Farshchian told him that JACKSON was addicted to Demerol, but said he was giving JACKSON a placebo to wean him off’.” TMZ writes.

E!Online link no longer exists. IMO -Those who are most likely catching on are distancing themselves from the fact they fell for the hoax. Not the first time I have seen articles disappearing. Getting closer to the end and now is the time to start cleaning up loose ends and links to the fabricated [media] death hoax. Another Source for the article: http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/10/michael-jackson-seemed-high-after-leaving-docs/
Michael Jackson had more than one doctor who prescribed him drugs
July 7, 2009
http://www.hotindienews.com/2009/07/07/104831
http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2009/07/source-michael-jackson-was-self-injecting-demerol/
July 11th, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Evidence-of-Michael-Jackson-s-Drug-Addiction-Emerges-116476.shtml
Source for the article: http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/10/jackson-self-injecting-demerol-doctor-says/ http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/10/jackson-used-employees-names-to-score-drugs/ http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/11/jacksons-knack-for-picking-friendly-docs/
Quote
Michael Jackson had a way of picking doctors who became such close friends with him that the doctor-patient distinction became blurred.

Dr. Alex Farshchian from Miami was "awe-struck" by Jackson, according to former L.A. County Sheriff's Deputy Michael Laperruque, who worked security for Jackson. We obtained notes from an interview Laperruque had with detectives during the child molestation investigation in Santa Barbara. Laperruque said Dr. Farshchian was so enamored with Jackson, he invited the singer to stay at his house in Miami. Laperruque says Jackson took the doctor up on his offer and ended up staying in his converted garage. The question -- why would Jackson settle for such accommodations?

Laperruque told detectives "Farshchian may have been over prescribing medication."

July 13th, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Michael-Jackson-Was-Murdered-Sister-La-Toya-States-116495.shtml
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1199092/La-Toya-Jackson-Michael-murdered--I-felt-start.html
July 16th, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Shocking-Photos-Show-Michael-Jackson-s-True-Condition-116824.shtml
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/15/michael-jackson-homicide-death-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-propofol/
July 23rd, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Doctor-Investigated-for-Manslaughter-in-Michael-Jackson-s-Death-117394.shtml http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/22/manslaughter-mentioned-in-dr-murray-warrant/

Dr. Steven Hoefflin did some talking to the tabloids to feed the beast for the rumors to fly all over the net.  8-)
July 25th, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Time-of-Death-Questioned-in-Michael-Jackson-Case-117549.shtml
Quote
Speculation that Michael Jackson may have been dead hours before Dr. Murray called 911 to ask for an ambulance emerged as early as yesterday, when Dr. Steven Hoefflin, one of Michael’s longtime doctors and friend of the Jackson family, revealed in a shocking interview what he knew of the tragic day when the King of Pop died. According to Hoefflin, Murray administered Michael the Propofol IV and then fell asleep. He woke up two hours later to find the singer dead, at which time he summoned Michael’s son, Prince, to watch him perform CPR on the lifeless body of his father.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Prince-Jackson-Traumatized-After-Seeing-Michael-Die-117497.shtml
Published: 24 Jul 2009
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2552479/Michael-Jacksons-son-Prince-watched-him-die.html

Jackson's Doctor -- Strange Signs
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/michael-jackson-dr-conrad-murray-death-propofol-iv-ucla-medical-center/
Quote
Law enforcement sources tell us one of the theories they're exploring in Michael Jackson's death is that Dr. Conrad Murray administered Propofol to the singer and then left the room, eventually to return to a dead body.
Our sources say when paramedics arrived Michael Jackson was found with an IV in his arm, an IV stand nearby along with an empty IV bag and oxygen tank.

We're told paramedics who arrived on scene say Dr. Murray's conduct was "strange" -- he was "hard to deal with" and was "getting in the way" of emergency responders.

As we already reported, paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the house but Dr. Murray insisted they transport the singer to the hospital.

We're told at the UCLA Medical Center -- after doctors gave up on resuscitation efforts because Jackson was clearly dead -- Dr. Murray continued CPR, which some of the UCLA docs found curious.
IMO Murray managed to keep the paramedics at the house as long as he could. He stalled/distracted by acting strange to cause suspicion upon himself, he had to make sure this would turn into a homicide investigation. He also needed for the body to stay at the house longer so when it did come time for TOD to be called he could then stall/distract again (hoping it wouldn’t be a long stall) at the hospital until it was close to TOD of 2:26 p.m. I am going to adlib Murray: At the hospital he kept on doing CPR after the Dr.’s gave up. Very close to 2:26 p.m. Murray finally said “Ok doc go ahead and call TOD” Then that is when Dr. Cooper called it. Just like Murray had Alberto wait to call 911 until 12:21 p.m. to fit the numerology he also made sure the numerology for the TOD happened at 2:26 p.m. Dr. Cooper and the UCLA staff did not have to be in on it. Murray was the reason for that to work out. 8-)

July 27th, 2009
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Michael- ... 7627.shtml (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Michael-Jackson-Was-Dead-When-Ambulance-Arrived-117627.shtml)
Quote
Dr. Conrad Murray, the official target of the LAPD homicide investigation in Michael Jackson’s death, is not an anesthesiologist, yet he may have administered Propofol to the singer and then fell asleep as his patient was dying. When the paramedics arrived on the scene, Michael Jackson was dead, TMZ informs, and Murray was acting very strange.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/
Quote
Law enforcement sources tell us when paramedics arrived at Michael Jackson's house he was already dead ... and it took them a while to even realize the victim was the famous singer.

Our sources say when paramedics got to Jackson's home he was flatlined. There was no electrical activity in his heart and Jackson showed no sign of life.

Multiple sources say paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the scene but Dr. Conrad Murray insisted that the singer be transported to the hospital. Dr. Murray -- as a higher medical authority than the EMTs -- had the power to overrule them.

Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man.”
Randy and Family trying to do an Intervention.
Last updated at 9:03 AM on 28th June 2009
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196035/Doctor-I-saved-Jackson-morphine-overdose-TV-interview-US.html
Last updated at 11:07 AM on 29th June 2009
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195999/24hr-sober-coach-hired-Michael-Jackson-desperate-family-brought-controversial-Doc-Hollywood-save-star.html

Here is how some of the rumors started and circulated around the net. Some of the info came from a source(s) inside MJ’s camp. Feeding the beast.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196009/Im-better-dead-Im-How-Michael-Jackson-predicted-death-months-ago.html
Quote
I had more than a glimpse of the real Michael; as an award-winning freelance journalist and film-maker, I spent more than five years inside his ‘camp’.

Many in his entourage spoke frankly to me – and that made it possible for me to write authoritatively last December that Michael had six months to live, a claim that, at the time, his official spokesman, Dr Tohme Tohme, called a ‘complete fabrication’. The singer, he told the world, was in ‘fine health’. Six months and one day later, Jackson was dead.
Quote
To understand why a singer of Jackson’s fragility would even think about travelling to London, we need to go back to June 13, 2005, when my involvement in his story began.

As a breaking news alert flashed on CNN announcing that the jury had reached a verdict in Jackson’s trial for allegedly molesting 13-year-old Gavin Arvizo at his Neverland Ranch in California, I knew that history had been made but that Michael Jackson had been broken – irrevocably so, as it proved.

Nor was it the first time that Michael had been accused of impropriety with young boys. Little more than a decade earlier, another 13-year-old, Jordan Chandler, made similar accusations in a case that was eventually settled before trial – but not before the damage had been done to Jackson’s reputation.
Quote
Michael had not helped his case. Appearing in a documentary with British broadcaster Martin Bashir, he not only admitted that he liked to share a bed with teenagers, mainly boys, in pyjamas, but showed no sign of understanding why anyone might be legitimately concerned.

I had started my investigation convinced that Jackson was guilty. By the end, I no longer believed that.

I could not find a single shred of evidence suggesting that Jackson had molested a child. But I found significant evidence demonstrating that most, if not all, of his accusers lacked credibility and were motivated primarily by money.
Quote
The ordeal had left him physically shattered, too. One of my sources suggested that he might already have had a genetic condition I had never previously come across, called Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency – the lack of a protein that can help protect the lungs.
Although up to 100,000 Americans are severely affected by it, it is an under-recognised condition. Michael was receiving regular injections of Alpha-1 antitrypsin derived from human plasma. The treatment is said to be remarkably effective and can enable the sufferer to lead a normal life.

But the disease can cause respiratory problems and, in severe cases, emphysema. Could this be why Jackson had for years been wearing a surgical mask in public, to protect his lungs from the ravages of the disease? Or why, from time to time, he resorted to a wheelchair?

When I returned to my source inside the Jackson camp for confirmation, he said: ‘Yeah, that’s what he’s got. He’s in bad shape. They’re worried that he might need a lung transplant but he may be too weak.
‘Some days he can hardly see and he’s having a lot of trouble walking.’


http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-jackson-alpha-male/
Quote
Michael may be in desperate need of a lung transplant, according to Ian Halperin, author of a new M.J. bio.

Halperin claims Jacko suffers from a rare genetic disorder known as Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency, which has led to emphysema and gastrointestinal bleeding.

Halperin told In Touch Michael can barely speak and is nearly blind in his left eye.

We called MJ's reps -- nothing.
I do not claim that the information presented in these articles is 100% the truth nor do I claim that the information is 100% false.[/b]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 26, 2011, 05:16:16 PM
Lividity shows withing 30 minutes to 2 hours. The dead corpse would have shown lividity which would make the doctor see clearly (plus anyone medically savvy or educated present) that the person was dead as a doornail. If the person died prior to June 25, the lividity would have been fixed. We know the government agencies (at least the key people in it) are in on it, otherwise he couldn't have pulled this all off, so if a LAFD chief says there was an ambulance, it wouldn't convince me.

I believe the trial is staged, since there never was a dead Michael Jackson, so Murray could never be charged with manslaughter. It may look real for those attending, but it simply can't be real because you need a dead MICHAEL JACKSON. If this would be a real trial based on a corpse called 'John Doe', Murray would have been charged for killing 'John Doe'. So there is no need for people to be nervous, no one is going to jail.

So I still don't see a valid reason for the use of a real corpse and I also still don't have confirmation that there really was an ambulance at the house on June 25.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 26, 2011, 07:27:39 PM
I did not comment on the sources I quoted in this post
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=600#p326053.

I think the statements in the Daily Beast article are huge, to say the least.
If this is not only hear-say, it would indicate that law is being bent to a maximum in Caliland following individual strategies of involved parties and getting up to personal feud level.
I think there is NO way to discuss in advance "if" and "how" someone may be charged or processed or whether the outcome should be an indictment or not and what kind of charges were favourable for the state or not.
This would be a kindergarden of "how would you like it, your honour, today, if you don't mind" and not applied law. I remember the stuffed toy court rooms and how I bursted into laughter and even into tears of laughter when watching this. What a bazaar in the Americas claiming to know truth for all other countries around the globe. God help us.
Bravo again to the lawyers that could fight that mud for Michael and get him out.
I have to admit I am convinced that those targetted are still not aware they are in the spotlight because they are so busy in undertaking their (major) side shows.
Those horse flies are so hooked on their sweet cakes that they don't notice they are already caught in a spider's net.

I stick to "no body", no true DC signed by anybody.
Using a "replacement body" could be interpreted as a fabricated evidence and thus an entrapment. However, if those gamblers did commit their unprofessional and illegal activities already on a "no evidence" case, how deep will they fall then.
The lesson cannot be a shallow one. It must be an earthquake and a housecleaning that leaves the house clean and not "almost clean".
No body, no signiture and watch for those "helping Murray" - glad to have had a company in wishing Michael to hell. I am still waiting for the carpet crawlers.
Michael, I really hope you have good days these days and get them all where they belong.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 26, 2011, 07:37:03 PM
Quote
Law enforcement sources tell us when paramedics arrived at Michael Jackson's house he was already dead ... and it took them a while to even realize the victim was the famous singer.

Our sources say when paramedics got to Jackson's home he was flatlined. There was no electrical activity in his heart and Jackson showed no sign of life.

Multiple sources say paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the scene but Dr. Conrad Murray insisted that the singer be transported to the hospital. Dr. Murray -- as a higher medical authority than the EMTs -- had the power to overrule them.

Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man.”

Well, they could not "declare it dead in the house because that would imply to call the police and close the house, all a mess, many people. All this scene may have occurred before June 25 .. or maybe that day I was on 25 June but everybody did the opposite of what is supposed to be should have done.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 26, 2011, 07:46:26 PM
Quote from: "paula-c"
Quote
Law enforcement sources tell us when paramedics arrived at Michael Jackson's house he was already dead ... and it took them a while to even realize the victim was the famous singer.

Our sources say when paramedics got to Jackson's home he was flatlined. There was no electrical activity in his heart and Jackson showed no sign of life.

Multiple sources say paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the scene but Dr. Conrad Murray insisted that the singer be transported to the hospital. Dr. Murray -- as a higher medical authority than the EMTs -- had the power to overrule them.

Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man.”

Well, they could not "declare it dead in the house because that would imply to call the police and close the house, all a mess, many people. All this scene may have occurred before June 25 .. or maybe that day I was on 25 June but everybody did the opposite of what is supposed to be should have done.


Sources, sources and sources. Never names. I stand by my question: was there an ambulance that day? I am searching for something that could confirm that, believe me, but I can't find it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 26, 2011, 07:55:19 PM
Souza...IF there were NO ambulance, then worrying about the AR and analyzing that and most all else, really don't matter, because NO ONE died.
No need for threads on the paramedics, the ambulance being real or not, body or dummy, etc... no need to talk over the AR...the family's clues, dodo's clues...because what in itself shows it's all a hoax.  Done deal.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 26, 2011, 08:29:28 PM
Quote
~Souza~ wrote:



paula-c wrote:

Law enforcement sources tell us when paramedics arrived at Michael Jackson's house he was already dead ... and it took them a while to even realize the victim was the famous singer.

Our sources say when paramedics got to Jackson's home he was flatlined. There was no electrical activity in his heart and Jackson showed no sign of life.

Multiple sources say paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the scene but Dr. Conrad Murray insisted that the singer be transported to the hospital. Dr. Murray -- as a higher medical authority than the EMTs -- had the power to overrule them.

Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man.”


Well, they could not "declare it dead in the house because that would imply to call the police and close the house, all a mess, many people. All this scene may have occurred before June 25 .. or maybe that day I was on 25 June but everybody did the opposite of what is supposed to be should have done.


Sources, sources and sources. Never names. I stand by my question: was there an ambulance that day? I am searching for something that could confirm that, believe me, but I can't find it.


I am going to investigate more thoroughly the ambulance's mysterious "June 25" 8-)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 26, 2011, 09:56:32 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Souza...IF there were NO ambulance, then worrying about the AR and analyzing that and most all else, really don't matter, because NO ONE died.
No need for threads on the paramedics, the ambulance being real or not, body or dummy, etc... no need to talk over the AR...the family's clues, dodo's clues...because what in itself shows it's all a hoax.  Done deal.

Bingo!

It's all fake, all of it, every last little bit of it, FAKE!

It's an illusion, a magic trick, or as I like to say, a giant proper mind fuck.

@Grace,
Quote
The lesson cannot be a shallow one. It must be an earthquake
great!!

@Im_convinced, your posts are long and you put a lot of work into each one of them. I know you get frustrated that people don't comment on them but I think they don't comment because in my opinion, you're completely missing the point. Re-gear your thinking. Walk across the room and take a look at it from another angle and you will see I know you will. We all need a break from time to time to stay fresh, I know I do at least.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Daniela on April 26, 2011, 10:40:04 PM
I agree with bec. It's all FAKE, from the 911 call to the autopsy report to the trial. I can't wait to see how this will end. Michael is pure genius.

PEACE
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 26, 2011, 10:47:50 PM
Time to sit back and watch the show I mean court case.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 26, 2011, 11:06:24 PM
@Souza,
The video of the Capt. speaking about the LAFD ambulance wasn’t necessarily intended to convince you that there was an ambulance on 6/25/2009 at MJ’s house but to show that more than just Ben said it happened.

The argument of time of lividity is going to be one of those issues I will have to say it’s a possibility we won’t see eye to eye on.

Lividity may start 30 minutes after death but it takes up to 6 hours for it to become fixed. That is going with the least amount of time. In that case when E. Fleak’s observed the body at 1811 hours the lividity should have been fixed if the body died at noon. She reported the lividity still blanched so that is telling me lividity hasn’t fixed. This is my opinion based on the report and not having been there myself to test that theory.

That is where this becomes tricky for me because if I go with an end of life hospice patient being on life support until the time is needed to stop all sustaining life support; lividity would be present at the hospital and would blanch with light pressure during E. Fleaks examination of the body. If I go with the already dead cadaver that has been preserved in its natural state and kept refrigerated; I have no way of knowing whether or not fixed lividity could be blanched at that point. I am not a forensic scientist or a coroner investigator or a coroner who works with dead bodies but I did try to find material related to that with no luck. Forced oxygen would make the tissue seem fresher in a preserved natural state cadaver but I don’t know if it would revive the tissue enough to make blanching possible.

The justice system is very much under scrutiny right now. The LAPD, DA, and anyone else who is not in the know is being watched very carefully to see how they handle this case. The judge is very real and very aware of blogs, tabloid gossipers and the fact that it could bias a jury. This trial is real yet fake at the same time. Fake in the sense that Murray did not kill MJ. Real in the sense that the DA who has issues already (see Grace’s post) viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=600#p326053 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=600#p326053)  and was pressured by a whole bunch of family members and the public to prosecute Murray. The jury pool to select a final jury is very real. They come from the public and possible private sectors of Murray’s so called peers.

The way this case has been handled so far is not looking good for the LAPD and DA. There are more agencies with flaws that came to light because of this case. The fact that Michael went to trial based on lies and fabricated evidence is proof that the justice system has flaws except when it came to the jury who did the right thing and found him not guilty.

The fact that this case even made it this far besides the pressure to prosecute is also showing how flawed the system still is. We have found out this is a faked death yet the DA still is going ahead with this trial without seeming to notice all the evidence of clues left to say a big fat hello something is wrong here. This trial will eventually show light upon these clues. The jury should eventually scratch their heads and say wtf? There is already a safe guard that Murray won’t be prosecuted, he has very good lawyers set in place before he was even indicted, there is the Mr. X fingerprint on the syringe to provide reasonable doubt that someone else did it. There are a lot of other things that have been done to safe guard him but I am not going to list out everything that has been done and reported in the news.

All I can say at this time is a corpse was necessary to provide authentic testimony and make the after events of 6/25/2009 happen as they should as if this was a real death. The mistakes and obvious incompetent public figures will be shown with a bright light. I do not deny that MJ has key people in certain places to make sure this goes in the direction it should. These key figures have helped with some of the planting of false evidence aka clues to show people that something aint right. If people failed to see this then it won’t be MJ’s fault nor anyone else who helped to make very blatant in your face clues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriag ... ral_issues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage_of_justice#General_issues)
Quote
General issues
Causes of miscarriages of justice include:
Plea bargains that offer incentives for the innocent to plead guilty
Confirmation bias on the part of investigators
Withholding or destruction of evidence by police or prosecution
fabrication of evidence or outright perjury by police (see testilying), or prosecution witnesses (e.g. Charles Randal Smith)
Biased editing of evidence
Prejudice towards the class of people to which the defendant belongs
Poor identification by witnesses and/or victims
Overestimation/underestimation of the evidential value of expert testimony
Contaminated evidence
Faulty forensic tests
false confessions due to police pressure or psychological weakness
Misdirection of a jury by a judge during trial
perjured evidence by the real guilty party or their accomplices (frameup)
Perjured evidence by supposed victim or their accomplices
Conspiracy between court of appeal judges and prosecutors to uphold conviction of innocent
The general issues above for MJ and the FBI would not apply in a sting operation where lies/deception are allowed. It does apply to the other side that is investigating this case and the DA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsified_ ... f_evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsified_evidence#Types_of_evidence)
Quote
Types of evidence
forged evidence - an item or information which has been manufactured, or altered, to support some agenda, is not admissible in many courts, including U.S. criminal courts.
planted evidence - an item or information which has been moved, or planted at a scene, to seem related to the accused party, is not admissible in many courts, including U.S. criminal courts.
tainted evidence - information which has been obtained by illegal means or has been revealed (or traced) using evidence acquired by illegal search, and/or seizure, is called the "fruit of the poisonous tree" and is not admissible in many courts, including U.S. criminal courts.
suppressed evidence - an item or information which a court judge has ruled as "inadmissible" is forbidden to be presented in a court case. Suppressed evidence might be excluded because it was found hidden or locked away in areas the accused could not be proven to know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsified_ ... llegations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsified_evidence#People_vs._Michael_Jackson_2005_Child_molestation_allegations)
Quote
In the 2005 child molestation case again Michael Jackson, District Attorney of Santa Barbara County at the time, Thomas W. Sneddon Jr. has been accused of falsifying evidence during the trial before the grand jury. The accuser, Gavin Arvizo, accused Michael Jackson of showing him "girlie" magazines, leading to acts of molestation, masturbation and sexually lewd acts. However, the magazines had not even been published during his stay at Neverland, the place where the alleged crimes took place.

During the testimony in the court, Sneddon handed it to Arvizo, who held the magazine in his hands without any gloves, clearly manipulating the evidence, raising suspicion in the grand jury. After the touching had occurred, Sneddon submitted this copy of the magazine to the forensic lab to make sure whether or not Arvizo had touched the magazine previously when the malicious acts took place. However, the magazine had not been published at all during Gavin's stay at Neverland. The boy had never even been there to see the magazines, according to the accusation. It was published after the Arvizos had left Neverland. This was one of the reasons Jackson was proven "not guilty" of any malicious act of child molestation. Jackson was acquitted of all charges. No particular action has been taken against Sneddon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_prosecution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_prosecution)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement)

@bec
I am not frustrated at no one commenting on my posts and I certainly do not need to walk across the room and re-gear my thinking. The research I have done has been a breeze. It took absolutely no effort or hard core thinking on my part.  I have focused on every aspect of this scene. I wrote about illusions and that I took that into consideration. Everything I have wrote on this thread is all part of my thinking when looking at reasons why a corpse would need to used. Just because my theory or thinking differs from yours or anyone elses doesn't make me wrong or you right.

Da Troot will prevail and it will all come out eventually. The trial as TS stated is coming up soon and I take that to mean it will become clear whether or not a corpse was used.[/b] :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 26, 2011, 11:15:21 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Souza...IF there were NO ambulance, then worrying about the AR and analyzing that and most all else, really don't matter, because NO ONE died.
No need for threads on the paramedics, the ambulance being real or not, body or dummy, etc... no need to talk over the AR...the family's clues, dodo's clues...because what in itself shows it's all a hoax.  Done deal.

I think the reason for TS' threads on the ambulance photo, paramedics, ambulance ride etc is to show us that this is in fact, all a hoax.  We already know that of course but to go over the events of that day in minute detail makes us realize that even our theories up to this point don't prove anything.  We haven't reached a consensus on the ambulance photo, the paramedics, or the who/what went in the ambulance, amongst other things.  And I think that's the point.  I think we need to realize that although the events of June 25th were a hoax, June 25th itself appears to be a hoax as well.  The events of that day don't add up because none of them happened and there's no proof any of them happened, namely the ambulance ride.  If you reason the ambulance ride didn't happen that day, then you would also reason the 911 call wasn't made that day either.  The 911 call was fake anyways but we still needed that screen shot to show the "call" was made at 12:21.  From a hotel.  When nothing else makes total sense, it's time to re-think the whole thing.  I'm not saying for sure that these events were pre-recorded on the "other day" but it makes the most sense realistically for the hoax to go exactly as planned.

I mentioned this in an earlier post but will repeat it as I think it's an important clue. I can't get over that TMZ posted a story about Michael's alleged declining health on 12/21/08 at 12:26pm.  The 911 call time (date of article) and ambulance arrival time (time of article).  http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-j ... lpha-male/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-jackson-alpha-male/)   I realize that other media outlets were reporting the same story about Michael's health that day but what are the chances of the TMZ article being posted at 12:26?  Seems like a HUGE coincidence.  :?

12/21/08 is also exactly 4 years from 12/21/12 (we have 4 years to get it right).  12/21 is the shortest day of the year or the longest night/darkness of the year, the winter solstice. It was sunny in L.A. on 12/21/08, a Sunday, and also the day before TMZ told everyone that Michael was living at Carolwood.   http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-j ... -new-crib/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-jacksons-sleeping-in-a-new-crib/)  Maybe the ambulance footage was taken on 12/21/08 or before because if something was going down at Michael Jackson's place with emergency vehicles parked outside for 40 minutes, you can bet the media would've been swarming and fans gathering.  The whole scene that day was just too eerily calm.

Also, 12/21/2008...1+2+2+1+2+8=16...1+6=7     and      12:26...1+2+2+6=11
7 and 11.  "See you in July"...2011.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 26, 2011, 11:49:50 PM
I might as well join in the fun and show you this website about the LAFD..

Apparently, they do "PR"..public relations

The Los Angeles Fire Department welcomes those persons interested in collaboration with the department in a variety of areas. Some of the ways in which we collaborate with the public include:

.Motion Picture and Television Licensing
.Paramedic Certification Ride-Alongs
.VIP Ride-Alongs
.School Visits & Presentations
.Media Events
.Civic Activities
.City/Official Business


For additional information on collaboration with the Los Angeles Fire Department, please see our contact section, or reach us as follows:

Community Liaison Office
Ronnie Villanueva, Battalion Chief
200 North Main Street, 18th Floor
Los Angeles, CA 90012

213.978.3810 [ Direct ]
213.978.3712 [ Fax ]


http://lafd.org/public-relations (http://lafd.org/public-relations)

Maybe Michael hired them for that time, and they have signed an confidentialitly agreement...It could be as simple as that.  Maybe the kids wanted a joy ride ???
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 27, 2011, 12:04:44 AM
Quote
Just because my theory or thinking differs from yours or anyone elses doesn't make me wrong or you right.

Souza's theory was a complete 180 from mine. I tried to debunk it. I tried hard. I failed. Which is why I think it's right. You should try too. Dead body has been debunked. Let it go.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 27, 2011, 12:18:08 AM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:

April 11 wasn't last week TS. That was 13 days ago. And a week has 7 days as far as I know lol.

P.S: HAPPY EASTER TO YOU and TO YOUR LOVED ONES TS. :)

Now all is clear, TS is Kenny Ortega "we were right here a week ago!!"  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 27, 2011, 01:04:57 AM
What do you people mean it's all fake? You mean nothing of those happened on June 25th, not the ambulance ride, not the helicopter,  nothing?!
So the people who were there in front of the Carlwood residence were all actors?
Hollywood TV is in it in this case? They filmed the ambulance or am I am wrong maybe?


What do you mean it was all fake?!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 27, 2011, 01:07:46 AM
Quote from: "Andrea"
I mentioned this in an earlier post but will repeat it as I think it's an important clue. I can't get over that TMZ posted a story about Michael's alleged declining health on 12/21/08 at 12:26pm.  The 911 call time (date of article) and ambulance arrival time (time of article).  http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-j ... lpha-male/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-jackson-alpha-male/)   I realize that other media outlets were reporting the same story about Michael's health that day but what are the chances of the TMZ article being posted at 12:26?  Seems like a HUGE coincidence.  :?

12/21/08 is also exactly 4 years from 12/21/12 (we have 4 years to get it right).  12/21 is the shortest day of the year or the longest night/darkness of the year, the winter solstice. It was sunny in L.A. on 12/21/08, a Sunday, and also the day before TMZ told everyone that Michael was living at Carolwood.   http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-j ... -new-crib/ (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-jacksons-sleeping-in-a-new-crib/)  Maybe the ambulance footage was taken on 12/21/08 or before because if something was going down at Michael Jackson's place with emergency vehicles parked outside for 40 minutes, you can bet the media would've been swarming and fans gathering.  The whole scene that day was just too eerily calm.

Also, 12/21/2008...1+2+2+1+2+8=16...1+6=7     and      12:26...1+2+2+6=11
7 and 11.  "See you in July"...2011.

I think you hit the nail, Andrea.
Sunset Blvd. was almost empty when the tourist bus came down to the intersection.
Imagine a Thursday just after noon. Impossible.
(Sunset Blvd. was my fav ride in the mornings and the best burger - I admit - was offered at Wilshire LOL).  Back to other pleasures...

12/21/08 was not only a Sunday but Sunday before Christmas (which gives some additional sense to the wreath decoration) when folks were preparing for the holidays and staying home. I think the OVGuide videos have been planted to make believe that the wreaths were out because "Blanket loved Christmas so much - how sweet  ;) " and up goes the drama - OMG - (and the behind the curtain laughter alike).
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on April 27, 2011, 01:15:33 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:

April 11 wasn't last week TS. That was 13 days ago. And a week has 7 days as far as I know lol.

P.S: HAPPY EASTER TO YOU and TO YOUR LOVED ONES TS. :)

Now all is clear, TS is Kenny Ortega "we were right here a week ago!!"  :lol:

 :lol:  :lol:

When I said "last week", though, it was still Saturday night California time; so actually April 11 was the beginning of the previous week based on California time.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 27, 2011, 01:26:23 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:

April 11 wasn't last week TS. That was 13 days ago. And a week has 7 days as far as I know lol.

P.S: HAPPY EASTER TO YOU and TO YOUR LOVED ONES TS. :)

Now all is clear, TS is Kenny Ortega "we were right here a week ago!!"  :lol:

 :lol:  :lol:

When I said "last week", though, it was still Saturday night California time; so actually April 11 was the beginning of the previous week based on California time.

hmmmmm....off topic: how's the weather like in Cali  :lol: ?!

PS: glad you are back.......
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 27, 2011, 01:27:04 AM
No it wasn't winter. The cast of the shadows and the condition of the vegetation indicates that it was summer when the ambulance outside Carrolwood footage was shot.

TS, you're dodging this theory. It's because Souza is right, isn't it?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 27, 2011, 01:32:20 AM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
The argument of time of lividity is going to be one of those issues I will have to say it’s a possibility we won’t see eye to eye on.

Lividity may start 30 minutes after death but it takes up to 6 hours for it to become fixed. That is going with the least amount of time. In that case when E. Fleak’s observed the body at 1811 hours the lividity should have been fixed if the body died at noon. She reported the lividity still blanched so that is telling me lividity hasn’t fixed. This is my opinion based on the report and not having been there myself to test that theory.

The involvement or exposure of the LAPD or any other government agency is not important considering the use of a corpse. You don't need the ambulance scenario for that. If the LAPD would not be in, and detectives have seen a real dead body at the coroner, it doesn't mean you need the ambulance or a hospice patient at Carolwood Drive. It's a coroner, he probably has dead bodies enough to choose from.

About lividity, I tried to show you why it wouldn't make sense. The doctors would not be fooled with it and they would not work on a corpse for over an hour.

If it was an 'old' corpse that was frozen straight after death, the doctors would have received either a body that showed rigor (starts with the eye lids, doctors check pupil reflections and they wouldn't have been able to open them, and if they were open, they would have seen the blurry, dead eyes. Rapid cooling of a body can inhibit rigor mortis, but it occurs upon thawing. So rigor would set in immediately. It takes a while before the body is completely warmed up, and by that time it is probably even in full rigor and showing lividity (depending on how long it takes to warm up a corpse, probably fixed as well). If not in full rigor, then at least half way. Even if it was just the early stage, the doctors would have noticed. Point is, that the body would be in rigor, meaning dead. Now they could have waited until rigor was was disappeared, but that would mean that the body would have enough time to show fixed lividity. Meaning: no possibility to drain blood from the vains.

If it was a patient who was hospice, living at Carolwood Drive, who died on June 25, you also have a problem. You would have to make sure the patient is dead before you call 911. You can't take the risk that people at UCLA or the paramedics would revive him. And the patient probably died before noon, because the paramedics mentioned it showed lividity. They arrived at 12:26 if I recall right, so only if we would assume lividity showed up as fast as can be, the patient died at 11:56 (noon) at the latest. The paramedics were in the house for 40 more minutes, before they arrived at the hospital around 1:15PM. If the paramedics already saw lividity when they arrived, the doctors would definitely have seen it too when he was brought in. No doctor is going to work for an hour on a patient that has been dead for 45 minutes minimum. Not only would it be pretty much impossible, but it would als be unethical, when you take into account that there is a 99.9% chance that he has severe brain damage, if he will ever be able to breath on his own. According to the paramedics (because in this scenario we must assume they are not making things up), the patient had blue hands and feet, which means he had a major lack of oxygen, meaning that he did not receive enough oxygen from the beginning. In other words: dead as a doornail.

Again, what I am trying to say is that a doctor is not going to work on a patient who shows lividity, dried eyes with no pupil reflection, who is cold to the touch, at least in one of the scenarios shows rigor, is blue and totally has been unresponsive for almost an hour. I think that I could even see (and smell by the way) that that person would be dead. They even said the paramedics to call it based on what they reported to UCLA, so there were enough signs of death to call it at the house already, yet they 'give it a shot' as soon as they see such a patient? No way.

The paramedics might not be 'in on it' in that case, but they wouldn't be fooled. Nor would the doctors at UCLA be fooled, and the detective could have been fooled at the coroner, IF that would be the case.  There is no need for a show like that.

So what use would a corpse have? None in my opinion, unless there is another reason. And I agree with an earlier post which seems to make sense. A dead body might be seen as false evidence and therefore entrapment. If there is only the slightest chance that that is true, or could be seen that way in a court of law, then I don't see the FBI or MJ risking that, when it's also possible to just create a total illusion.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 27, 2011, 01:36:34 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
:lol:  :lol:

When I said "last week", though, it was still Saturday night California time; so actually April 11 was the beginning of the previous week based on California time.

And is this above your contribution for THIS week?? !!  ;)

I think you're right Bec, for whatever reason, he's dodging the issue! Why show up just to say that!  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on April 27, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
Quote from: ~Souza~
Sources, sources and sources. Never names. I stand by my question: was there an ambulance that day? I am searching for something that could confirm that, believe me, but I can't find it.

Maybe I can help you confirm that.  Your theory is very well thought out, and makes a lot of sense; however, the ambulance was there on June 25, 2009.

First, although Ben saying June 25 may be hearsay; yet, think about his slip-up.  If it was accidentally telling the truth, then we have THAT DAY (June 25, 2009), as well as the other day; and if it was an intentional slip, to give us a clue, then the clue would be the same thing (6-25-09 & the other day).

I'm not sure if your theory says that ambulance #71 never went to the hospital on June 25, 2009; but if so, there are several problems there.  But I will skip that for now, maybe someone else will tackle that aspect.

As far as filming ambulance #71 at Carolwood in advance of 6-25-09, I think you agree that anytime in 2009 before 6-25 would be far more risky than on 6-25.  This is why you put it back into 2008; but roughly one year earlier would make a noticeable difference in things growing around the entrance.  However, the pictures below (see the colored circles) show a few of many things that are not different between the ambulance day, and when fans were there just a few days after 6-25-09.  A few days would not make much if any noticeable differences in the plants; but one year difference would surely be noticeably different.

Here is the link for the videos, from which the still shots below are taken.  Some may scrutinize these videos and try to show significant differences; but many do the same thing with for example ambulance #71, when the only real difference is lighting and angles.

Ben's ambulance video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI)

Fans at Carolwood video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2NQJMm3mi4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2NQJMm3mi4)

This is from 1:22 in Ben's video.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben1-22.jpg)

This is from 0:41 in the fans video.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-41.jpg)

This is from 0:41 in Ben's video.  Notice that you have one on the left going about straight up, and then four or five to the right of that, bending over to the right.  You can see the same in the other picture.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben0-41.jpg)

This is from 0:40 in the fans video.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-40.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 27, 2011, 02:02:16 AM
:oops:  I apologise TS, for my previous hasty comment!  :oops:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 27, 2011, 04:24:55 AM
There is a picture of ambulance #71 at the emergency entrance at UCLA.  Not sure if this is the same day or not, because their are no other cars around which contradicts the original photos..

Of course there was an ambulance that day..  There's no other option.  It was supposed of been seen, otherwise they would have used the other entrance in the rear for privacy.

The whole point of an ambulance, is to make it more believable.......what happened from carolwood dve, is that maybe ???  :idea:  :idea:  another ambulance took its place with a real corpse in it....they did a swap.  That's why we have no footage of the ambulance arriving other than Ben Evenstads.

If the ambulance was inside for 40mins, then UCLA would have been already crowded with paparazzi, and so would have carolwood dve.  News travels fast in the media world.


DID YOU NOTICE THE LADY IN THE CORNER SELLING MAPS???????

SHE ALREADY KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH MJ AND WAS CRYING...HOW COULD THAT BE, IF THE AMBULANCE WAS JUST LEAVING?????????
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJhasSpoken on April 27, 2011, 04:31:22 AM
Quote from: 2good2btrue

DID YOU NOTICE THE LADY IN THE CORNER SELLING MAPS???????

SHE ALREADY KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH MJ AND WAS CRYING...HOW COULD THAT BE, IF THE AMBULANCE WAS JUST LEAVING?????????

Do you have the video of that?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 27, 2011, 04:45:28 AM
Quote from: MJhasSpoken
Quote from: 2good2btrue

DID YOU NOTICE THE LADY IN THE CORNER SELLING MAPS???????

SHE ALREADY KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH MJ AND WAS CRYING...HOW COULD THAT BE, IF THE AMBULANCE WAS JUST LEAVING?????????

Do you have the video of that?

This is the link for it: 

http://www.wat.tv/video/michael-jackson-ambulance-1lnmx_2exyf_.html
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 27, 2011, 04:49:43 AM
Quote from: TS_comments
Quote from: ~Souza~
Sources, sources and sources. Never names. I stand by my question: was there an ambulance that day? I am searching for something that could confirm that, believe me, but I can't find it.

Maybe I can help you confirm that.  Your theory is very well thought out, and makes a lot of sense; however, the ambulance was there on June 25, 2009.

First, although Ben saying June 25 may be hearsay; yet, think about his slip-up.  If it was accidentally telling the truth, then we have THAT DAY (June 25, 2009), as well as the other day; and if it was an intentional slip, to give us a clue, then the clue would be the same thing (6-25-09 & the other day).

Nah, that's not enough. That day could also mean "the day of the video" because he doesn't mention a date and the other day "the day of the picture". Could have been done on two days.

Quote from: TS_comments
I'm not sure if your theory says that ambulance #71 never went to the hospital on June 25, 2009; but if so, there are several problems there.  But I will skip that for now, maybe someone else will tackle that aspect.

I'm sure it went to UCLA that day at lest once, probably more than once. It's an ambulance. Ambulances bring people to the hospital. I do think I get what you mean. The ambulance might have transported another person during that time, right? Not if you change the number for a day. No one would notice. Or they had a flat tire and stayed at the station with closed doors. If the LAFD is in, which they must be, they probably could have solved that problem. If the problem is that arrivals of ambulances are recorded somewhere, then I don't see a porblem either, or I am being too positive. It's just a record. If you can fake a DC and an AR, than I don't see a problem with that either. Hey, if faking a corpse is a possibility! Also there was a fire alarm at the moment, things might conveniently be forgotten due to the situation. Other than that, I see no potential problems, but I am sure you will have one for me :lol:

Quote from: TS_comments
As far as filming ambulance #71 at Carolwood in advance of 6-25-09, I think you agree that anytime in 2009 before 6-25 would be far more risky than on 6-25.  This is why you put it back into 2008; but roughly one year earlier would make a noticeable difference in things growing around the entrance.  However, the pictures below (see the colored circles) show a few of many things that are not different between the ambulance day, and when fans were there just a few days after 6-25-09.  A few days would not make much if any noticeable differences in the plants; but one year difference would surely be noticeably different.

Here is the link for the videos, from which the still shots below are taken.  Some may scrutinize these videos and try to show significant differences; but many do the same thing with for example ambulance #71, when the only real difference is lighting and angles.

Ben's ambulance video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI)

Fans at Carolwood video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2NQJMm3mi4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2NQJMm3mi4)

This is from 1:22 in Ben's video.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben1-22.jpg)

This is from 0:41 in the fans video.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-41.jpg)

This is from 0:41 in Ben's video.  Notice that you have one on the left going about straight up, and then four or five to the right of that, bending over to the right.  You can see the same in the other picture.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben0-41.jpg)

This is from 0:40 in the fans video.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-40.jpg)

That is exactly why it doesn't convince me (yet) that it was really shot on June 25. As you said, lighting and angles can cause differences. Wind can also. That is so convenient about plants, they are not static and therefore never the same. I have no footage or pictures from the house from 2008, so I don't know how it looked like, but I do know that if you maintain it, you can get close enough not having people see differences. After all it's landscaped. if certain details were there a year earlier, it would not be that hard to copy. After all, we can't see any details. Also, if you will allow me to be a pain in the ass for a sec, and I do scrutinize the vids, I could say that the little bushy thing and the tree on the left side of the gate (right side for us viewers) look fuller on Ben's video. Also on the left side (again right for us) I see more of those white flowers. That could mean it was taped later in summer, like August or September. That would narrow it down to 9-10 moths. Not saying you are not telling the truth, just pointing out why it's not enough to convince me.

I also still can't see a reason for actually having that ambulance there that day, unless the problem of that ambulance at the hospital you mentioned could convince me. And if that really would be a problem, then all that I will add to my theory is that the ambulance really went from the house to the hospital with no one in it, since I also still don't see a reason (again: yet) why a real corpse would be used. And if the ambulance was really there, I don't understand why no one was there. It seems too good to be true. Any pap could have arrived, tipped by anyone who saw it, and they could have screwed up Chris' shot.

So I'm throwing the ball right back at ya, because I really can't think of anything else concerning this. Please put me out of my misery and save the tiny piece of brain I have left. :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 27, 2011, 04:52:16 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
If the ambulance was inside for 40mins, then UCLA would have been already crowded with paparazzi, and so would have carolwood dve.  News travels fast in the media world.

No, the paps would have gone to the house, not to UCLA, because they could have taken him to Cedar's. That is why this seems too surreal, no paparazzi on the scene for 40 minutes, no one other than Ben et al saw the ambulance arrive at UCLA. TMZ reported about the cardiac arrest after it had arrived at UCLA. Everyone was late.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 27, 2011, 05:09:05 AM
There is definitely lies going on here....they starline tour bus video DOES NOT match the Ben Evenstad video, so it was done at different times.................TMZ even posted a picture on their website to prompt us, but looks like nobody is listening or seeing.  

One is a practice run, and the other day was the real thing, timed well with many witnesses.

1.This is the tourist bus video, where it definitely shows both Ben and Chris at the side window as the ambulance is taking off.

2. This is Bens picture only show him at the side window taking the last shot..

Two different days and times...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 27, 2011, 06:41:20 AM
Souza maybe I ask a stupid question, as during Easter this thread went ahead 4 full pages I don't have time to read all, but could you explain how the Hollywood TV film fits into your theory? Are they in?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 27, 2011, 07:58:17 AM
Don't know if this would help....it's an old post about the two different guys (Ben/Chris...yellow shirt/red shirt) Maybe something new will pop out......Blessings.


Re: TIAI February 26
by wishingstar » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:00 pm

Good Morning Hoaxland & TS!

Great way to start the day........however, not my favorite of things...the ambulance picture. Sorry, TS.
When we were first introduced to this photo through the media, I avoided it like the plague. I eventually started to look at it, but found it to be immediately questionable. I just automatically figured it must be fake, so I didn't give it too much thought. Over the months, I have read about this and that within the picture.....commenting briefly. For personal reasons, much like the Hold My Hand video, I find it hard to really look at. (sometimes, I think I am just way too sensitive). But, enough about that.....I am interested in this thread, of course. I have always thought the ambulance holds many answers. It has bothered me from the start.
TS, you talk about the wall etc. Given the direction of the ambulance at the time the photo was supposedly taken, what wall? The wall across the street? In the full video, I see the red car briefly with a wall (I suppose). However, I fail to see how that wall could be what you are talking about. The angle of the photo inside and pointing down to the gurney area.....far away from the other side of the street. It can't be the wall from the driveway.....the ambulance window is on the other side. I guess I must be missing something. One thing that has always bothered me about the photographer (supposedly Ben)....his shirt is red in the video. But in still shots, I see a person in yellow. I have to just post links here....maybe someone would be kind enough to help this gal out (  )
1) the video...watch where the window is in relation to the wall/red car....and look at the photographer's shirt color:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU)
2) here is a still shot of a photographer....is it suppose to be the same guy, getting the famous last shot? If so....shirt color changed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36837568@N00/4310970316/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/36837568@N00/4310970316/)
3)The Ben Evenstad video interviews have always bothered me. I feel like both the red shirt guy, and the yellow shirt guy are featured:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=613h-A7RUFo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=613h-A7RUFo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VR-HSc2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VR-HSc2) ... re=related

I think I need coffee....pretty sure, actually.
Thank you TS....another brain-storming session for sure!

Blessings Always!
Wishingstar

"Everything I know, I know because of love."
Leo Tolstoy- War and Peace
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 27, 2011, 09:02:23 AM
I don't know what is up and what is down anymore.  I believe one thing, convincingly, then someone (Souza :) presents other options that are much more reasonable to me.  
This happens over and over for almost 2 years.  Today, TS comes in and once again throws a monkey wrench into my thoughts again.  
I've about had it.  It's gotten to where I get up in the morning and say a prayer to just lost interest in this.  
This is simply crazy.  TS, seriously, if you KNOW what's up...just say it.  WHY the mystery?  This really messes with peoples lives.  (I know Michael life...THAT'S WHY I'M HERE)  It messes with our day, and or dreams even.  Sometimes I don't want to leave home because I might miss something important on here or on the TV with Michael returning.  Why make us work, dig, worry and stress to get a point then shoot it down.  You obviously know what we search for.  
It's like the child's hide the button game.  You hide the button while the child is out of the room (Michael's info you know).  The child returns and you give clues to him as to how close he is to the button...warm, warmer...cold...HOT!!  (you, TS with us finding info)..Then, when the child is close to finding it, when then turn their head, YOU MOVE IT.  (us!!!)
I feel like an idiot at times.  Like I don't have a mind anymore.  Like I can't reason, I'm just a follower...I let others simply tell me what to believe..including you TS.  (thank God some are still searching).  There is TOOOOO much info anymore for me to make any sense to it.  I skim it because....overload.
So, again, I'll pray to lose interest.  I'll love Michael til I die.  I have since 1969.  But, none of this will make him return...oh geez...but..will it???
TS, be honest, give it up or tell us you are just speculating.  
 
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 27, 2011, 09:35:07 AM
Quote from: 2good2btrue
Quote from: MJhasSpoken
Quote from: 2good2btrue

DID YOU NOTICE THE LADY IN THE CORNER SELLING MAPS???????

SHE ALREADY KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH MJ AND WAS CRYING...HOW COULD THAT BE, IF THE AMBULANCE WAS JUST LEAVING?????????

Do you have the video of that?

This is the link for it: 

<!-- m -->http://www.wat.tv/video/michael-jackson ... exyf_.html (http://www.wat.tv/video/michael-jackson-ambulance-1lnmx_2exyf_.html)<!-- m -->
does anybody know how to make this any cleaner?  think i am really hearing things 'cause i could swear this woman says it is lisa's father  <!-- s:shock: -->:shock:<!-- s:shock: -->  meds anyone  <!-- s:oops: -->:oops:<!-- s:oops: -->
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 27, 2011, 10:03:20 AM
For me, everything was recorded in 25/06 in real time. So would generate less suspicion.
I still do not know who is the person behind the gates, he seems with the double of this is it. He certainly was in the garden and waiting for the ambulance, so I think he went to UCLA that day, while Michael was already far from LA.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 27, 2011, 10:37:54 AM
I have something to add in regards to the landscaping outside Carrolwood, TS's argument against it being filmed in 2008 (or earlier) is flimsy, but I need to review the videos as the pics he offers are weak and grainy. I also need to find pics of the plant species to illustrate to the viewers and take screen shots of the videos to compare in order to prove it to anyone other then myself... and frankly, I have to go to work, so it will have to wait until I have time.

I feel for you fordtocarr, I understand your frustration. I also go in and out of phases of annoyance with this. I'm more or less resolved to just keep watching. Perhaps that is the point?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 27, 2011, 10:39:40 AM
Quote from: "bec"
I have something to add in regards to the landscaping outside Carrolwood, TS's argument against it being filmed in 2008 (or earlier) is flimsy, but I need to review the videos as the pics he offers are weak and grainy. I also need to find pics of the plant species to illustrate to the viewers and take screen shots of the videos to compare in order to prove it to anyone other then myself... and frankly, I have to go to work, so it will have to wait until I have time.

I feel for you fordtocarr, I understand your frustration. I also go in and out of phases of annoyance with this. I'm more or less resolved to just keep watching. Perhaps that is the point?
Thanks bec :))  LOVE to you
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 27, 2011, 10:49:56 AM
Quote from: "bec"
I have something to add in regards to the landscaping outside Carrolwood, TS's argument against it being filmed in 2008 (or earlier) is flimsy, but I need to review the videos as the pics he offers are weak and grainy. I also need to find pics of the plant species to illustrate to the viewers and take screen shots of the videos to compare in order to prove it to anyone other then myself... and frankly, I have to go to work, so it will have to wait until I have time.

I find it interesting that TS once again has us focusing on plant leaves in pictures where you can't see them that well.   :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mdc on April 27, 2011, 11:05:28 AM
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"

DID YOU NOTICE THE LADY IN THE CORNER SELLING MAPS???????

SHE ALREADY KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH MJ AND WAS CRYING...HOW COULD THAT BE, IF THE AMBULANCE WAS JUST LEAVING?????????

Do you have the video of that?

This is the link for it:  

http://www.wat.tv/video/michael-jackson ... exyf_.html (http://www.wat.tv/video/michael-jackson-ambulance-1lnmx_2exyf_.html)
does anybody know how to make this any cleaner?  think i am really hearing things 'cause i could swear this woman says it is lisa's father  :shock:  meds anyone  :oops:

Well there you go...it was Elvis in the ambulance on June 25, 2009. IMO, That's not out of the realm of possibilities in this whole sordid mess of lies and half truths.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: chappie on April 27, 2011, 11:22:25 AM
Quote from: "mdc"
Well there you go...it was Elvis in the ambulance on June 25, 2009. IMO, That's not out of the realm of possibilities in this whole sordid mess of lies and half truths.

Elvis dead?????
Please tell me it isn't true....
Got to check CNN right away
Ow that's not possible it's old news ;)
Chaps
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mdc on April 27, 2011, 11:38:39 AM
Quote from: "chappie"
Quote from: "mdc"
Well there you go...it was Elvis in the ambulance on June 25, 2009. IMO, That's not out of the realm of possibilities in this whole sordid mess of lies and half truths.

Elvis dead?????
Please tell me it isn't true....
Got to check CNN right away
Ow that's not possible it's old news ;)
Chaps
But isn't it funny how "old" news becomes "new" news around here?

Other than the fact that he's, you know, already dead...tell me why it couldn't have been him?  ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 27, 2011, 01:40:07 PM
Quote from: "mdc"
Quote from: "chappie"
Quote from: "mdc"
Well there you go...it was Elvis in the ambulance on June 25, 2009. IMO, That's not out of the realm of possibilities in this whole sordid mess of lies and half truths.

Elvis dead?????
Please tell me it isn't true....
Got to check CNN right away
Ow that's not possible it's old news ;)
Chaps
But isn't it funny how "old" news becomes "new" news around here?

Other than the fact that he's, you know, already dead...tell me why it couldn't have been him?  ;)


For starters he does not look like MJ. If someone did die in that house it is not Elvis nor MJ someone that resembles MJ.. That's why the paramedics did not recognized the patient..
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: peacock7 on April 27, 2011, 01:51:38 PM
Ah-ha, so Marlon is back.  I mean TS.  I read up on something recently that got me to considering if Marlon and TS are the same person.  This was brought up on the old board.  Remember, the Funeral book had Marlon signing Study Peace, and the S.T.U.D.Y. from the old board signed out using the phrase also.  Matter-of-fact, the Brothers (Marlon, Tito & Jackie) all signed off with that phrase after speaking to the audience right before the first Jackson Family Dynasty show commenced.  They also sang the words in their song about war.

I think what has convinced me more than a little bit here lately is because of the TIAI Update (forgot the number) where on Marlon's supposed old Twitter, the phrase MJ's Army of Love was there and then it wasn't, and then after being discussed here with TS, the next thing that happens, it was at the bottom of his Twitter page again.  There were a couple of these type of coincidences around that time.

Did the ambulance arrive all the way from Neverland?  (I doubt it)  Remember, the below video?  WITH?  Why in the world would ABC have this title?  (Ambulance at Neverland) It is beyond bizarre.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_0lXLdtDcA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_0lXLdtDcA)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GodhaschosenMJ on April 27, 2011, 02:14:36 PM
Hello again everyone, does anyone remember something about MJ having his face mutilated during CPR? An article or ? Any help finding this info would be appreciated! Thanks!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on April 27, 2011, 02:30:35 PM
Im_convincedMJalive wrote:
Quote
All I can say at this time is a corpse was necessary to provide authentic testimony and make the after events of 6/25/2009 happen as they should as if this was a real death. The mistakes and obvious incompetent public figures will be shown with a bright light. I do not deny that MJ has key people in certain places to make sure this goes in the direction it should. These key figures have helped with some of the planting of false evidence aka clues to show people that something aint right. If people failed to see this then it won’t be MJ’s fault nor anyone else who helped to make very blatant in your face clues.

Great post, Im_convinced. This part just hit me. I totally agree. I can only say that this trial could be a project under the microscope with many references to the 2005 trial. It seems obvious that there are some striking aspects like the Q&A list on the internet, lots of attention about the jury and the possibility of media influence, evidence flaws like the useless (overdated) syringe contents, possible false evidence, constant gossip coverage prior to and during the trial etc. It will be clear a lesson of awareness to the media, to the public and last but not least to the public figures and institutes.

L.O.V.E.

Prejudice is a burden that confuses the past, threatens the future and renders the present inaccessible. - Maya Angelou
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: andy1andy2 on April 27, 2011, 02:41:58 PM
Well with all these inconsistancies and stories I just bet that this whole case will be thrown out of court due to some TECHNACALITY!!!!!!!!!!     :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 27, 2011, 03:22:13 PM
Quote from: "GodhaschosenMJ"
Hello again everyone, does anyone remember something about MJ having his face mutilated during CPR? An article or ? Any help finding this info would be appreciated! Thanks!


only thing i remember about that is that is was the supposed reason the family gave for no open casket. i think that is correct. backup anyone?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 27, 2011, 03:38:15 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
That is exactly why it doesn't convince me (yet) that it was really shot on June 25. As you said, lighting and angles can cause differences. Wind can also. That is so convenient about plants, they are not static and therefore never the same. I have no footage or pictures from the house from 2008, so I don't know how it looked like, but I do know that if you maintain it, you can get close enough not having people see differences. After all it's landscaped. if certain details were there a year earlier, it would not be that hard to copy. After all, we can't see any details. Also, if you will allow me to be a pain in the ass for a sec, and I do scrutinize the vids, I could say that the little bushy thing and the tree on the left side of the gate (right side for us viewers) look fuller on Ben's video. Also on the left side (again right for us) I see more of those white flowers. That could mean it was taped later in summer, like August or September.  

ALL of the plants, bushes and grass could have been planted.
"planted" or "planted into soil".
An art director cares for the smallest piece of shadow or he is not a master.
No way after having witnessed the funeral footage that I'd ever believe again in video material as being truely "real". A camera is just an artificial eye of somebody else and it is not mine.

Whereas I use my eyes to watch for my intentions and most of the times am in the know about my doings and not-doings, my achievements and my shortcomings, I don't dare answering who for which purpose is concentrating his camera on the most blurry, grainy somethingies of unpronounceable stuff that is being labeled some hear-say I-cannot-name-it because-it-is-so secret (or so obvious) by some close source to somebody we cannot reveal for some presentation or interpretation or misinterpretation of something unfortunately so much unclear we are unable to make our minds up about it.

Don't know if you get me, TS, but one of the results of this interminable sequencing of blurry pictures at an exhibition may be that Michael will be doubted more than ever "is it really him or just his ghost or a double or is it Michael or Janet or TS or Marlon or the universal soldier ..." and then we have complete fiction at hand:
a man who never existed (was it him or his twin) and will nevermore exist (nah, he's not coming back, come on, that's Navi) but in his songs (were they his or TR's?) and his dancemoves (did we watch them or was it greenscreened?) and then, finally, the fog may have become eternal and Michael may forever more have his peace and we will still love him and watch his children grow and sigh. Cut.

Now this has become a somewhat thin ice and was to be expected like this:
fog and smoke are both hiding. But there's a difference.

A gardener knows how to adorn a landscape, an art director knows how to get the best gardener. Only the best. Being the extension.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 27, 2011, 03:47:40 PM
Quote from: "peacock7"
Ah-ha, so Marlon is back.  I mean TS.  I read up on something recently that got me to considering if Marlon and TS are the same person.  This was brought up on the old board.  Remember, the Funeral book had Marlon signing Study Peace, and the S.T.U.D.Y. from the old board signed out using the phrase also.  Matter-of-fact, the Brothers (Marlon, Tito & Jackie) all signed off with that phrase after speaking to the audience right before the first Jackson Family Dynasty show commenced.  They also sang the words in their song about war.

I think what has convinced me more than a little bit here lately is because of the TIAI Update (forgot the number) where on Marlon's supposed old Twitter, the phrase MJ's Army of Love was there and then it wasn't, and then after being discussed here with TS, the next thing that happens, it was at the bottom of his Twitter page again.  There were a couple of these type of coincidences around that time.

Did the ambulance arrive all the way from Neverland?  (I doubt it)  Remember, the below video?  WITH?  Why in the world would ABC have this title?  (Ambulance at Neverland) It is beyond bizarre.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0)


Anything is possible, it can be any of Michael's siblings. I thought of it too. This person knows more then meets the eye. He or she is accurate, and seems to know what he or she is saying. If Michael has passed away, the family would shut us down. They would be furious with us still thinking Michael is alive. So I agree with you... blessings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_0lXLdtDcA
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 27, 2011, 04:02:33 PM
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
For me, everything was recorded in 25/06 in real time. So would generate less suspicion.

yes
I also think so.
But if MJ really did recorded it another time and fooled a whole world into believing everything was live on June 25th, I will tell him he's the master of all illusions :mrgreen:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GodhaschosenMJ on April 27, 2011, 08:02:18 PM
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
Quote from: "GodhaschosenMJ"
Hello again everyone, does anyone remember something about MJ having his face mutilated during CPR? An article or ? Any help finding this info would be appreciated! Thanks!


only thing i remember about that is that is was the supposed reason the family gave for no open casket. i think that is correct. backup anyone?

Yes, thats what I was looking for but where can we document this info? What family member said it? Was it in an interview, is there a video clip or something? Thanks! :P
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 27, 2011, 08:19:44 PM
Quote from: "GodhaschosenMJ"
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
Quote from: "GodhaschosenMJ"
Hello again everyone, does anyone remember something about MJ having his face mutilated during CPR? An article or ? Any help finding this info would be appreciated! Thanks!


only thing i remember about that is that is was the supposed reason the family gave for no open casket. i think that is correct. backup anyone?

Yes, thats what I was looking for but where can we document this info? What family member said it? Was it in an interview, is there a video clip or something? Thanks! :P

Oh God that would be so near the beginning . Do we still have archives from before the changing of the guards ( :lol: ) . that is the only way i know to even begin to look for it. it might take a small mirical to find it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 27, 2011, 08:51:26 PM
FACT

Ben says, "we have a team member at MJ's house everyday".......Then why is there no footage of an ambulance and firetrucks arriving..?????

FACT The two videos available are completely different.

You can clearly hear one of the NPG photographers saying..."Come on Linda..come on Linda.....but when the starline tour bus keeps driving off, you clearly see Linda further up on the mobile phone, crying, selling maps.

FACT

In the original video taken from a tourist, the bus is "not asked to move back" to clear the entrance"  WHY???

FACT
In bens photo, you see a tourist bus, much further back, but no evidence of which number bus or company it is...

There are also inconsistencies with when the "cones are placed around the firetruck.

FACT

There is no way Ben could have taken video of MJ being put in the ambulance UNLESS he was standing on something..like a stool or ladder.  His camera seems so high up above the bodyguards hands...how can that be.??

FACT

Final photo taken by "someone" from far back, clearly shows just Ben taking that last photo as the ambulance is taking off.

But the tourist bus video shows BOTH ben and Chriss at the window.  There was no way chris could have run to the back so fast like that.  They guy in black is...and by the way, they are all from NPG.. ;)  ;)  

FACT
If Murray and the paramedics did not have the life saving equipment to place a balloon pump in his heart, after the adreneline shots, then 40minutes is a hell of a long time to wait to get hime to hospital......

FACT

There are two main entrances to Carolwood dve, as clearly seen as the family arrive at the house the next day....

There is more evidence and facts, so feel free to add to this list...

And TS, I am getting tired of playing games too...  Its become an unhealthy obsession and I believe we have enough evidence to prove the ambulance photos were taken at two different times.  

This just proves that it is a hoax as there is no ither reason for two days of filming if MJ had died on the 25th June.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 27, 2011, 09:02:16 PM
LISTEN CAREFULLY TO WHAT BEN ALMOST SAYS at the 1.03 mark !!!!!!
This is when they already had the ???????  uhhhh , he was already in the ambulance.  "what did they already have in the ambulance Ben ???  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0)
[youtube:1605uafs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0[/youtube:1605uafs]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 27, 2011, 09:10:32 PM
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
Quote from: "GodhaschosenMJ"
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
Quote from: "GodhaschosenMJ"
Hello again everyone, does anyone remember something about MJ having his face mutilated during CPR? An article or ? Any help finding this info would be appreciated! Thanks!


only thing i remember about that is that is was the supposed reason the family gave for no open casket. i think that is correct. backup anyone?

Yes, thats what I was looking for but where can we document this info? What family member said it? Was it in an interview, is there a video clip or something? Thanks! :P

Oh God that would be so near the beginning . Do we still have archives from before the changing of the guards ( :lol: ) . that is the only way i know to even begin to look for it. it might take a small mirical to find it.

It's about halfway down this article..it says his face was damaged from the oxygen mask..etc.
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/7321/53/
I guess La Toya said it also, someplace...

Our link..
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3345&p=52195&hilit=face+during+cpr#p52195 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3345&p=52195&hilit=face+during+cpr#p52195)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 27, 2011, 09:33:15 PM
I found the following in a blog Polish, among other houses they speak of 2 ambulances and the Exif picture (I want to make clear that I do not understand any of this, only what they have read on the Internet), publish it to see if there someone on the forum that can verify if this is true.

Quote
EXIF is an abbreviation of "exchangeable image File format". In short, is a standardization of the information about the format of the image or a sound file (only we will focus on the image). The exif, which is in the same file, contains the information about the image: their structure, size, its codification, the date of creation, among many other attributes. This standardization allows different softwares and scripts can read and interpret this information for the manipulation of the image.

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Once added a certain image of Michael with a type...
At first we will see that that day was the home of Michael and saw an ambulance.
-Only had three photographers - Chris Weiss, Evenstad Ben and Alfredo Ibáñez.
The purpose was to do it at home photos of Michael. (But they were underneath the House long before Michael!) A_pesar_de_que Michael still "not dead").
All of them working for a photographic agency "npg"... (this is the agency that works with Michael about for 10 years, and its head is Ben Evenstad, a good friend of Mike)
Coincidence? There is no case in this we all know very well.!  Very important element, which has given rise to much discussion on the truck, fire (E71), which was called to put out a small fire in the supposed neighbor Michael. Hmm good, but why the car was empty and was left on the street where only live with Michael (100 Carolwood) and not to the neighbor, to which the word fire was summoned?
The answer is simple - everything was prepared to be able to demonstrate that the photos were taken the same day.
Now let's see what happened after the round before the House:
1 - E71 fire check engine - even before the ambulance call
2. At 12: 26 of the arrival of an ambulance to Alfredo Ibáñez perpetuates his camera.
So far, everything is perfectly consistent with, but let's look beyond...
3. Between 1230 and 1250, they are leaving the first ambulance.
4. Approximately 13,04 go second ambulance.
(The same models LAFD)
How is this possible? An ambulance, which was owned by Michael, was probably in the morning in the square.
We know that Michael is some 75 vehicles of all kinds, so that an ambulance should be that yours.!.

This image of the clinic immediately after the movie is the greatest test of the humbug.
We must mention here the important thing.
Planned much earlier and prove to you that Michael knows exactly how and when to increase.
It was made for the simple reason that I wanted to have a proof that the ambulance was Michael, and direct our attention from the fact that we know not what or who came to UCLA, what or who was in the helicopter, what or who departed forensic will be and what or who was in a coffin.!
The image displayed of prime factors, and, literally, see that the image has the information and evidence, both visual and technical.
We start with things that are not visible to the naked eye, or after the establishment of Exif.
EXIF = images of interchangeable file format. EXIF is a code of the picture, its hidden DNA in the file, which you can not change experiment. Pulling in particular an original show of images from the photographer of what came later:



Do you see the Red graffiti on the bottom? (Those of the upper part of 2007 to install only the date).
Yes. .. Yes... The photo was taken on 25/06/2009. 12: 08 We remember that the phone was made at 12: 21 emergency room, the arrival of the ambulance is 12: 26.
So Chris Weiss made a photo about 56 minutes earlier for an (official) ambulance moved away from the place at 13: 04. Not only that, this photo was taken prior to the arrival of ambulances, and after that the phone for an ambulance.!

I hope that will be understood.. :oops:

http://theresurrectionmj.wordpress.com/ (http://theresurrectionmj.wordpress.com/)



(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DL0ut3oz7O0/SyAgT2IJqmI/AAAAAAAAANE/e47-HLfSe0I/s400/49.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on April 27, 2011, 09:53:47 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:

April 11 wasn't last week TS. That was 13 days ago. And a week has 7 days as far as I know lol.

P.S: HAPPY EASTER TO YOU and TO YOUR LOVED ONES TS. :)

Now all is clear, TS is Kenny Ortega "we were right here a week ago!!"  :lol:

:lol: that was a good one Gina :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 27, 2011, 11:37:06 PM
Quote
Souza wrote:
I believe the trial is staged, since there never was a dead Michael Jackson, so Murray could never be charged with manslaughter. It may look real for those attending, but it simply can't be real because you need a dead MICHAEL JACKSON. If this would be a real trial based on a corpse called 'John Doe', Murray would have been charged for killing 'John Doe'. So there is no need for people to be nervous, no one is going to jail.

An Innocent Man Facing Execution in Georgia
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=17366

Innocence Project/Help End Wrongful Convictions
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=17415

Aug-05-2010 06:57
Evidence Shows Oregon Inmate Was Falsely Convicted
Tim King Salem-News.com

(http://www.salem-news.com/stimg/august022010/kimble.jpg)
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DNA clears African-American inmate serving 19-year sentence for sex abuse.
(SALEM, Ore.) - Documents in the case of an African-American man serving a 19-year sentence for sex crimes against a child, spell out what may be one of Oregon's more significant miscarriages of justice.

38-year old Terrence Kimble's story is very hard to believe, yet it is a fact that this man has had to live with for almost ten years while incarcerated in the Oregon State Penitentiary in Salem. From the beginning of his ordeal, Kimble has been denied a lie detector test. At this point the whole thing defies explanation, because the DNA didn't match.

"I will continue to fight for my freedom no matter how much time I get or no matter how long it takes. I feel like a political prisoner here in Eugene, Oregon..."
- Terrence Kimble's statement at trial

How a prosecutor in Lane County, Oregon was able to create a case with no witnesses, a denial of the crime that began with the victim and included an aunt and uncle, who is a psychologist; blood relatives of the girl, is perplexing.

Add to that an emergency room doctor's examination of the alleged 13-year old victim concluding that the girl had not engaged in any sexual activity, and the fact that she was in the presence of family members exhibiting normal behavior at the time of the alleged occurrence, and the fact that a man was sent to prison for 19 years becomes all the more unbelievable, yet it happened, and for Terrence Kimble, it continues every day of his life. The crime Kimble is incarcerated for places him under the worst imaginable conditions.

Questions now surround instructions provided by the judge in the case, as well as possible motives of the prosecutor, who was obviously very intense in his desire to convict Kimble - who never wavered from his position as that of an innocent man - of first-degree Rape.

Lorna Jackson, aunt of the alleged victim, offered this testimony at trial:

Q: Prior to that instance when you saw her on that Friday the 8th, was there anything about her demeanor or her appearance that alerted you that something wrong had happened?

A: No. No. There was nothing.

Ezekiel Jackson, an Industrial Psychologist, is the uncle of Tracy Hoffman. Hoffman is the mother of the alleged victim, Danielle McDaniel, who was 13 at the time and one of three siblings. Ezekiel Jackson and his wife Lorna Jackson were the reason Kimble and Hoffman were in Oregon with their children.

Ezekiel Jackson testified:

Q: At some point in time you learned that there was some trouble with Terrence and one of the daughters, some allegations that were made. Is that right?

A: When? What allegations?

Q: Danielle made an allegation against Mr. Kimble.

A: Such as?

Q: That he had sexually abused her.

A: It didn't happen.

Q: Mr. Jackson, I may have missed -- I may have misunderstood what you said. But are you saying that this couldn't have happened because Danielle was with you all day when it was supposed to have happened?

A: No. Couldn't have happened because Danielle, myself and Tracy talked about this incident and it was stated that it did not happen.

This discussion, according to Mr. Jackson, took place in front of Eugene Police officers there to investigate the allegation.

Kimble said in court, "I can't understand how I was found guilty of sex crimes with no physical or solid evidence. I was found guilty on hearsay."

"From just another African-American who has been railroaded by Lane County, Oregon, no matter how much time I'm sentenced to serve I'm going to continued to maintain my innocence for the crime for which I was found guilty and the crimes I was also accused of. I will continue to fight for my freedom no matter how much time I get or no matter how long it takes. I feel like a political prisoner here in Eugene, Oregon."

Judge Karsten Rasmussen, who was a personal injury lawyer prior to becoming a judge, said: "Mr. Kimble, the jury found what it found, and I confess to you that I would have found you guilty of the more serious crimes in all probability. I found the testimony of the victim in this case, a now 14-year old African-American girl, to be some of the most compelling testimony that I've ever heard in the 20 years or so I've been in this business. I found her completely and totally believable."

Yet the testimony seems simply to not exist.
Keep reading here:
<!-- m -->http://www.salem-news.com/articles/augu ... ent-tk.php (http://www.salem-news.com/articles/august052010/kimble-innocent-tk.php)<!-- m -->

DNA frees Texas man imprisoned for 27 years
<!-- m -->http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/04/ ... 6220080430 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/04/30/us-usa-exoneration-dna-idUSN2938136220080430)<!-- m -->
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DALLAS | Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:26pm EDT
DALLAS (Reuters) - A man walked out of a Dallas court on Tuesday after DNA testing overturned his conviction over 27 years ago for the murder and rape of his girlfriend, local media reported.

James Woodard, 55, spent more time in prison than any other wrongfully convicted inmate in U.S. history who was subsequently freed by DNA testing, local media reported.

He was also the eighteenth person freed in Dallas County based on a post-conviction DNA analysis, according to the Innocence Project, a New York-based legal center that specializes in righting grave miscarriages of justice.

That is more than any other U.S. county, highlighting problems in the local justice system that include what critics have said is a history of racism and racial profiling.
Woodward is a black male -- the typical profile of those wrongfully sent to prison in Dallas and elsewhere in the United States.

"We've reached a tipping point on wrongful convictions in Texas. Nobody can seriously doubt that there's a problem," the Innocence project quoted Texas State Sen. Rodney Ellis as saying on Tuesday.

Ellis said on Tuesday a summit would be held in the state capitol of Austin on May 8 to determine the causes of wrongful convictions in Texas and identify reforms that can prevent them.
The list goes on and on of wrongfully convicted men and women. So yes this part of the hoax concerning the trial and whether or not Murray gets convicted over false evidence is very important. Just because there are clues to say Murray didn’t do it and we know he didn’t do it DOES NOT guarantee that the jury will not be biased/racist/prejudice and convict him on flimsy/false evidence.

Hypothetical situation of Murray being convicted:

It would be a miscarriage of justice and IMO the jury would have convicted him based on emotional bias/racist/prejudice. Maybe they don’t like Murray because he took away The KOP and they’re secretly a fan or maybe they don’t like MJ but still want to punish Murray for whatever their biased/racist/prejudice emotional feelings think at that time.

The DA and the Defense will present their cases. This is a combination of hard evidence and theatrics with who tells the better story. Who is more believable? It is the DA’s job to convince the jury Murray did it by using evidence that can be seen, touched and then made to believe it is true. It is the Defenses job to poke holes in anything the DA says and show that there is still a more logical explanation to the facts presented. It sometimes comes down to who did the most convincing talking.

Quote
Souza wrote:
A dead body might be seen as false evidence and therefore entrapment. If there is only the slightest chance that that is true, or could be seen that way in a court of law...
The issue of falsified evidence would not apply for MJ and the FBI in a sting operation where lies/deception are allowed. It does apply to the other side that is investigating this case and the DA. They are the ones who are running with the false evidence and trying to prosecute an innocent man based on that fake evidence. That shows their flaws and corruption.

I am not saying that the corpse was a hospice patient but realistically with out the numerology; the stories presented to us about MJ being sick follow the symptoms of a end of life patient (signs that death may be near). The kind of drugs listed for symptom management are some of the drugs found at the house and also the drugs (alleged) MJ was taking at Dr. Klien’s office (morphine/demerol). What was found at the death scene (found on the autopsy report in the 3A papers by E. Fleaks) midazolam, propofol both in an injectable form. These are used in terminal sedation.

This could be explained as the hospice patient could no longer swallow pills to relieve symptoms so the injectable drug was needed. I could also say that those were in injectable form because the body was a dead/cadaver and injecting the drugs found in his system would be easier than trying to make a corpse force swallow or a force drink anything. A better option to this being a hospice patient who is unreliable to die at the exact time needed for the numorology to work is an already dead cadaver staged to look like a hospice patient.

<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_sedation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_sedation)<!-- m -->
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In medicine, specifically in end-of-life care, palliative sedation (also known as terminal sedation, continuous deep sedation, or sedation for intractable distress in the dying/of a dying patient) is the palliative practice of relieving distress in a terminally ill person in the last hours or days of a dying patient's life, usually by means of a continuous intravenous or subcutaneous infusion of a sedative drug. This is an option of last resort for patients whose symptoms cannot be controlled by any other means. This should be differentiated from euthanasia as the goal of palliative sedation is to control symptoms through sedation but not shorten the patient's life, while in euthanasia the goal is to shorten life to cease symptoms.
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_s ... Drugs_used (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_sedation#Drugs_used)<!-- m -->
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A typical drug is midazolam, a short acting benzodiazepine. Opioids such as morphine are not used as the primary medicine since they are not effective sedative medications compared to benzodiazepines. However, if a patient was already on an opioid for pain relief, this is continued for pain relief while sedation is achieved. Other medications to be considered include haloperidol, chlorpromazine, pentobarbital, propofol or phenobarbital
<!-- m -->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_lif ... rs_of_life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_life_care#Care_in_the_final_days_and_hours_of_life)<!-- m -->
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Care in the final days and hours of life
Signs that death may be near
The U.S. Government National Cancer Institute advises that the presence of some of the following signs may indicate that death is approaching:
Drowsiness, increased sleep, and/or unresponsiveness (caused by changes in the patient's metabolism).

Confusion about time, place, and/or identity of loved ones; restlessness; visions of people and places that are not present; pulling at bed linens or clothing (caused in part by changes in the patient's metabolism).

Decreased socialization and withdrawal (caused by decreased oxygen to the brain, decreased blood flow, and mental preparation for dying).

Decreased need for food and fluids, and loss of appetite (caused by the body's need to conserve energy and its decreasing ability to use food and fluids properly).

Loss of bladder or bowel control (caused by the relaxing of muscles in the pelvic area).

Darkened urine or decreased amount of urine (caused by slowing of kidney function and/or decreased fluid intake).

Skin becoming cool to the touch, particularly the hands and feet; skin may become bluish in color, especially on the underside of the body (caused by decreased circulation to the extremities).

Rattling or gurgling sounds while breathing, which may be loud; breathing that is irregular and shallow; decreased number of breaths per minute; breathing that alternates between rapid and slow (caused by congestion from decreased fluid consumption, a buildup of waste products in the body, and/or a decrease in circulation to the organs).

Turning of the head toward a light source (caused by decreasing vision).

Increased difficulty controlling pain (caused by progression of the disease).

Involuntary movements (called myoclonus), changes in heart rate, and loss of reflexes in the legs and arms are additional signs that the end of life is near.
Quote
Symptom management
The following are some of the most common potential problems which can arise in the last days and hours of a patient's life:

Pain -Suffering from uncontrolled pain is a significant fear of those at end of life.
Typically controlled using morphine or diamorphine; or other opioids.

Agitation
Delirium, terminal anguish, restlessness (e.g. thrashing, plucking, or twitching). Typically controlled using midazolam, or other benzodiazepines. Symptoms may also sometimes be alleviated by rehydration, which may reduce the effects of some toxic drug metabolites.

Respiratory Tract Secretions
Saliva and other fluids can accumulate in the oropharynx and upper airways when patients become too weak to clear their throats, leading to a characteristic gurgling or rattle-like sound ("death rattle"). Whilst apparently not painful for the patient, the association of the symptom with impending death can create fear and uncertainty for those at the bedside. The secretions may be controlled using drugs such as scopolamine (hyoscine), glycopyrronium, or atropine. Rattle may not be controllable if caused by deeper fluid accumulation in the bronchi or the lungs, such as occurs with pneumonia or some tumours.

Nausea and vomiting
Typically controlled using cyclizine; or other anti-emetics.

Dyspnoea (breathlessness)
Typically controlled using morphine or diamorphine

Typical care plans, such as those based on the Liverpool Care Pathway for dying patients, will pre-authorise staff to give subcutaneous injections to address such symptoms as soon as they are needed, without needing to take time to seek further authorisation. Such injections are usually the preferred means of delivery, as it may become difficult for patients to swallow or to take pills orally. If repeated medication is needed, a syringe driver (called an infusion pump in the US) is likely to be used, to deliver a steady low dose of medication.

Other symptoms which may occur, and may be mitigable to some extent, include cough, fatigue, fever, and in some cases haemorrhage
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 27, 2011, 11:40:04 PM
Quote from: "paula-c"
I found the following in a blog Polish, among other houses they speak of 2 ambulances and the Exif picture (I want to make clear that I do not understand any of this, only what they have read on the Internet), publish it to see if there someone on the forum that can verify if this is true.

Quote
EXIF is an abbreviation of "exchangeable image File format". In short, is a standardization of the information about the format of the image or a sound file (only we will focus on the image). The exif, which is in the same file, contains the information about the image: their structure, size, its codification, the date of creation, among many other attributes. This standardization allows different softwares and scripts can read and interpret this information for the manipulation of the image.

Quote
Once added a certain image of Michael with a type...
At first we will see that that day was the home of Michael and saw an ambulance.
-Only had three photographers - Chris Weiss, Evenstad Ben and Alfredo Ibáñez.
The purpose was to do it at home photos of Michael. (But they were underneath the House long before Michael!) A_pesar_de_que Michael still "not dead").
All of them working for a photographic agency "npg"... (this is the agency that works with Michael about for 10 years, and its head is Ben Evenstad, a good friend of Mike)
Coincidence? There is no case in this we all know very well.!  Very important element, which has given rise to much discussion on the truck, fire (E71), which was called to put out a small fire in the supposed neighbor Michael. Hmm good, but why the car was empty and was left on the street where only live with Michael (100 Carolwood) and not to the neighbor, to which the word fire was summoned?
The answer is simple - everything was prepared to be able to demonstrate that the photos were taken the same day.
Now let's see what happened after the round before the House:
1 - E71 fire check engine - even before the ambulance call
2. At 12: 26 of the arrival of an ambulance to Alfredo Ibáñez perpetuates his camera.
So far, everything is perfectly consistent with, but let's look beyond...
3. Between 1230 and 1250, they are leaving the first ambulance.
4. Approximately 13,04 go second ambulance.
(The same models LAFD)
How is this possible? An ambulance, which was owned by Michael, was probably in the morning in the square.
We know that Michael is some 75 vehicles of all kinds, so that an ambulance should be that yours.!.

This image of the clinic immediately after the movie is the greatest test of the humbug.
We must mention here the important thing.
Planned much earlier and prove to you that Michael knows exactly how and when to increase.
It was made for the simple reason that I wanted to have a proof that the ambulance was Michael, and direct our attention from the fact that we know not what or who came to UCLA, what or who was in the helicopter, what or who departed forensic will be and what or who was in a coffin.!
The image displayed of prime factors, and, literally, see that the image has the information and evidence, both visual and technical.
We start with things that are not visible to the naked eye, or after the establishment of Exif.
EXIF = images of interchangeable file format. EXIF is a code of the picture, its hidden DNA in the file, which you can not change experiment. Pulling in particular an original show of images from the photographer of what came later:



Do you see the Red graffiti on the bottom? (Those of the upper part of 2007 to install only the date).
Yes. .. Yes... The photo was taken on 25/06/2009. 12: 08 We remember that the phone was made at 12: 21 emergency room, the arrival of the ambulance is 12: 26.
So Chris Weiss made a photo about 56 minutes earlier for an (official) ambulance moved away from the place at 13: 04. Not only that, this photo was taken prior to the arrival of ambulances, and after that the phone for an ambulance.!

I hope that will be understood.. :oops:

http://theresurrectionmj.wordpress.com/ (http://theresurrectionmj.wordpress.com/)



(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_DL0ut3oz7O0/SyAgT2IJqmI/AAAAAAAAANE/e47-HLfSe0I/s400/49.jpg)

Thank you so much for this post Paula! :D  AAAAAAAAA this is so cool  :D  (sorry i'm too exited, didn't sleep last night). I'm going to check and learn everything i can about this EXIF stuff. If this is all true then we will prove that there was no "other day" and that ambulance actually did arrive at the house on 25/06/09 but much earlier than we thought and maybe something else on top of that :) .
Again thank you so much!
Off to a lot of reading :mrgreen:

L.O.V.E to all :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: onthewingsoflove on April 28, 2011, 12:05:43 AM
Quote from: "andy1andy2"
Well with all these inconsistancies and stories I just bet that this whole case will be thrown out of court due to some TECHNACALITY!!!!!!!!!!     :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:


Yes!
Just like another high profile case in Los Angeles some years ago that surprised a lot of people!  "If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit!"

And I think it is fair to say that there is a lot in this scenario no matter how you look at it that just does not fit!  ;)

Blessings!
OnTheWingsOfLove
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: onthewingsoflove on April 28, 2011, 12:27:50 AM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I don't know what is up and what is down anymore.  I believe one thing, convincingly, then someone (Souza :) presents other options that are much more reasonable to me.  
This happens over and over for almost 2 years.  Today, TS comes in and once again throws a monkey wrench into my thoughts again.  
I've about had it.  It's gotten to where I get up in the morning and say a prayer to just lost interest in this.  
This is simply crazy.  TS, seriously, if you KNOW what's up...just say it.  WHY the mystery?  This really messes with peoples lives.  (I know Michael life...THAT'S WHY I'M HERE)  It messes with our day, and or dreams even.  Sometimes I don't want to leave home because I might miss something important on here or on the TV with Michael returning.  Why make us work, dig, worry and stress to get a point then shoot it down.  You obviously know what we search for.  
It's like the child's hide the button game.  You hide the button while the child is out of the room (Michael's info you know).  The child returns and you give clues to him as to how close he is to the button...warm, warmer...cold...HOT!!  (you, TS with us finding info)..Then, when the child is close to finding it, when then turn their head, YOU MOVE IT.  (us!!!)
I feel like an idiot at times.  Like I don't have a mind anymore.  Like I can't reason, I'm just a follower...I let others simply tell me what to believe..including you TS.  (thank God some are still searching).  There is TOOOOO much info anymore for me to make any sense to it.  I skim it because....overload.
So, again, I'll pray to lose interest.  I'll love Michael til I die.  I have since 1969.  But, none of this will make him return...oh geez...but..will it???
TS, be honest, give it up or tell us you are just speculating.  
 

Sorry to say it, but your post reminds me of the "This Is It" scene after the credits!

"Let me breathe in my own time and I'll come back in. I'll button my shirt, jacket, or whatever this is. I'll look around a little bit, play with them, snap my fingers and then bam!"

Tie a knot in the end of your rope and hang in there a little longer!
Blessings to you!
OnTheWingsOfLove
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on April 28, 2011, 01:13:59 AM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I don't know what is up and what is down anymore.  I believe one thing, convincingly, then someone (Souza :) presents other options that are much more reasonable to me.  
This happens over and over for almost 2 years.  Today, TS comes in and once again throws a monkey wrench into my thoughts again.  
I've about had it.  It's gotten to where I get up in the morning and say a prayer to just lost interest in this.  
This is simply crazy.  TS, seriously, if you KNOW what's up...just say it.  WHY the mystery?  This really messes with peoples lives.  (I know Michael life...THAT'S WHY I'M HERE)  It messes with our day, and or dreams even.  Sometimes I don't want to leave home because I might miss something important on here or on the TV with Michael returning.  Why make us work, dig, worry and stress to get a point then shoot it down.  You obviously know what we search for.  
It's like the child's hide the button game.  You hide the button while the child is out of the room (Michael's info you know).  The child returns and you give clues to him as to how close he is to the button...warm, warmer...cold...HOT!!  (you, TS with us finding info)..Then, when the child is close to finding it, when then turn their head, YOU MOVE IT.  (us!!!)
I feel like an idiot at times.  Like I don't have a mind anymore.  Like I can't reason, I'm just a follower...I let others simply tell me what to believe..including you TS.  (thank God some are still searching).  There is TOOOOO much info anymore for me to make any sense to it.  I skim it because....overload.
So, again, I'll pray to lose interest.  I'll love Michael til I die.  I have since 1969.  But, none of this will make him return...oh geez...but..will it???
TS, be honest, give it up or tell us you are just speculating.  
 

Sorry for your frustration.  However, I am not changing theories around from one day to the next; maybe others have, but I have not.

If I know what is up, just say it?   I do, but people don't believe me.  So I have to back it up with evidence; and that is not as easy as you might think.

Anyway, don't give up now.  We have come too far, and are too near the end, to throw in the towel now!   :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on April 28, 2011, 01:15:48 AM
Let me first answer why there were not more people on the scene, if it was really 6-25-09.  The fact is that there were more people there than just Ben and Chris; there were a couple of other people with cameras, plus the tour bus and video.  You ask why no pictures from those in the tour bus; there were not a lot of people in the bus, and we do have one video from the bus.  Others either didn’t have a camera, or didn’t bother to use it, or took pictures but didn’t post them on the internet (since a video was already posted from the bus, who would need more pictures?).

Why no crowd showed up?  TMZ did not report the ambulance until 1:30PM, about 20 minutes after it left the house {http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-rushed-to-the-hospital/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-rushed-to-the-hospital/)}.  They were first on the death, were they 45 minutes later than other news media on the ambulance?  If not, then people did not get the news in time to travel to Carolwood before the ambulance left.  As far as people at Carolwood calling friends: paps would not do this (even if not in on the hoax), because it would just generate more competition for getting a good shot.  People in the tour bus may not have had a cell phone with them, and even if so they probably were visiting from a distance and did not have friends in the neighborhood to pop by and see what’s up with 20 or 30 minutes notice.

Speaking of the tour bus: if it was 2008, why were they even taking a tour of that house—and why bother to wait for an ambulance at the house where nobody famous lives?  Or shall we say that everyone on the whole bus was in on the hoax?  And if so, why?  If it was filmed on 6-25-09, you don’t need to have all the props (meticulous detail to plants) and a bus load of people in on it, etc.

What if another pap showed up on 6-25-09, and tried to take a picture through the window?  Not a big deal; the windows were dark, and very hard to get any shot worth publishing.  Only Chris had the “magic camera” to get the perfect shot; and that is the picture which would make big news, not the picture from some unplanned pap.  So the question again: why all the trouble to film one year in advance?  It would only increase people needed to be in on it.

Also when Ben said “that day  and the other day”, the context was June 25, 2009 being “that day”.  Furthermore, if it was filmed in 2008, there would be no need for TWO days of photography.  The same day and time they had the ambulance at Carolwood, that would be the time and place to get the staged ambulance photo.  Because no MJ living there, and nobody would be looking or suspicious.  So again, why would Ben talk about TWO DIFFERENT days of photography?  If he was lying, why?  If it was accidental truth, then there were two days: staged photo before 6-25-09, and video on 6-25-09; or if it was an intentional clue, then we still have two days involved.  Either way, there is no need for two different days if it was all filmed in 2008.

For the ambulance at UCLA, please explain your theory clearer.  Was the alarm pushed before or after #71 arrived?  And did it arrive just at the right time from a real emergency?  Or if not, then who/what arrived in the ambulance when it did arrive?

Finally, it is possible of course to fabricate identical plants one year apart.  But why?  It would take a lot of attention to detail, and a lot of work.  It would probably even require using artificial plants at least in some places, because real plants will not look exactly the same one year later—no matter how carefully you groom and work them.  And who would do the work, without wondering why?  Or would the landscaper be someone already in on the hoax?

And what would be the point of all this effort?  The mass media and general public would never notice differences in the plants, if they filmed in 2008 and just let the plants grow naturally for the next year (without trying to copy everything one year later).  We already know that there are many inconsistencies about the hoax which are far more glaring than plant differences—and yet the masses sleep through it all.  So who would they be trying to fool, with the extreme detail to plant matching?  Why not just let the plants be different, and have that be another clue, etc?

Please notice the finer details in the circled parts.  In the red circle, you have in both pictures not only the main plant—but also a few leaves on the ground at the left side of it.  In the green circle, you can almost count the number of leaves, and sometimes which way the leaves are facing, and they are the same in both pictures.  In the blue circle, you can see not only the left on straight up and the others bending right—but in the far left one you can see two protrusions about half way up, again the same in both pictures.  These are extremely fine details, almost impossible to be natural one year later; and would take the highest degree of skill to do this successfully on real plants—they would almost certainly have to be artificial plants.  All this trouble, for what purpose???

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben1-22.jpg)

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-41.jpg)

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben0-41.jpg)

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-40.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Sarahli on April 28, 2011, 02:26:31 AM
In reality what TS says makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 28, 2011, 03:18:36 AM
Hello TS! :D  Thank you for your posts and for answering our questions!
But i'm going to disagree with you on a couple of things if you don't mind  :roll:
 
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Why no crowd showed up?  TMZ did not report the ambulance until 1:30PM, about 20 minutes after it left the house {http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-rushed-to-the-hospital/}.  They were first on the death, were they 45 minutes later than other news media on the ambulance?  If not, then people did not get the news in time to travel to Carolwood before the ambulance left.  As far as people at Carolwood calling friends: paps would not do this (even if not in on the hoax), because it would just generate more competition for getting a good shot.  People in the tour bus may not have had a cell phone with them, and even if so they probably were visiting from a distance and did not have friends in the neighborhood to pop by and see what’s up with 20 or 30 minutes notice.

You forgot to mention 2 lady fans that were there, as Ben said they were and also on Tour bus video we can see the lady who is selling maps is crying and talking to somebody on the phone. So Joe said that he got a call from a fan who was there and she told him that ambulance was in Michael's house (i believe he said it at LKL show) So we know that family is in on it that's why no one rushed to Michael's house (what usually people would do) but they went straight to UCLA and they were all a little bit late. But why fans didn't call other fans, i never lived in LA, but i think that there is a pretty big community of MJ fans. So why they didn't come? Why only 2 ladies? I know that it was at noon and probably people were at work, but A LOT of people showed up at UCLA. I'm a little bit confused on that  :oops:

Quote
What if another pap showed up on 6-25-09, and tried to take a picture through the window?  Not a big deal; the windows were dark, and very hard to get any shot worth publishing.  Only Chris had the “magic camera” to get the perfect shot; and that is the picture which would make big news, not the picture from some unplanned pap.  So the question again: why all the trouble to film one year in advance?  It would only increase people needed to be in on it.

"Magic Camera"  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: it is indeed!

Quote
Also when Ben said “that day  and the other day”, the context was June 25, 2009 being “that day”.  Furthermore, if it was filmed in 2008, there would be no need for TWO days of photography.  The same day and time they had the ambulance at Carolwood, that would be the time and place to get the staged ambulance photo.  Because no MJ living there, and nobody would be looking or suspicious.  So again, why would Ben talk about TWO DIFFERENT days of photography?  If he was lying, why?  If it was accidental truth, then there were two days: staged photo before 6-25-09, and video on 6-25-09; or if it was an intentional clue, then we still have two days involved.  Either way, there is no need for two different days if it was all filmed in 2008.

Ok here is a very big thanks to Paula! :D I've searched about the Efix metadata, i saw that it has been already discussed on this forum (but hopefully i'll bring something new with my post :roll: ) So first thing i did is i downloaded the Exif viewer on my PC and checked to see if it will show the correct date of my own pictures on my computer, it showed 2 dates: 1 the original date picture was taken, 2 the date picture was transfered to my computer. Indeed but all the dates were correct, even though my pictures traveled A LOT from different computers, the original date of a picture was correct  :shock: Unfortunately i cannot show you all of that here, but i found another cool thing to show you guys.  :D
The next thing i did is i downloaded Exif viewer for Google Chrome (browser i'm using) to see Exif metadata of online pictures (WARNING: THE PICTURE MUST BE FROM ORIGINAL SOURS) so i found the original picture of Michael in Ambulance from NPG and here is what i got: http://regex.info/exif.cgi?b=3&referer= ... r.com%2F25 (http://regex.info/exif.cgi?b=3&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fmjjlmpgeneration%2F4149907024%2Fin%2Fphotostream%2F&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F25)
Quote
Basic Image Information
Headline:   Michael Jackson Rushed to Hospital in Ambulance
Description:   ©NATIONAL PHOTO GROUP
Emergency crews respond to the home of Michael Jackson where he was treated medically and then rushed to UCLA Medical Center.
Job: 062509J4
EXCLUSIVE June 25th, 2009 Los Angeles, CA
nationalphotogroup.com
Creator:   National Photo Group
Camera:   Nikon D200
Lens:   24 mm
(Max aperture f/3.5)
Exposure:   Auto exposure, Shutter priority AE, 1/250 sec, f/4.5, ISO 400
Date:   June 25, 2009   12:08:08PM (timezone is 7 hours behind GMT)
(1 year, 10 months, 2 days, 11 hours, 27 minutes, 28 seconds ago)
Location:   Los Angeles, CA, USA
File:   350 × 400 JPEG
73,305 bytes (0.070 megabytes)     Image compression: 83%
Color Encoding:   
WARNING: Color space tagged as sRGB, without an embedded color profile. Windows and Mac web browsers will treat the colors randomly.
Images for the web are most widly viewable when in the sRGB color space and with an embedded color profile. See my Introduction to Digital-Image Color Spaces for more information.
Image URL:   http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2579/414 ... d08dd6.jpg (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2579/4149907024_5b48d08dd6.jpg)
 

Here's the full data:

XMP — this group of metadata is encoded in 17,874 bytes (17.5k)
XMP Toolkit   Adobe XMP Core 4.1-c034 46.272976, Sat Jan 27 2007 22:37:37
Orientation   Horizontal (normal)
Make   NIKON CORPORATION
Camera Model Name   NIKON D200
Modify Date   2009:06:25 23:31:53Z
1 year, 10 months, 2 days, 7 hours, 3 minutes, 43 seconds ago
Creator Tool   Adobe Fireworks CS3
Create Date   2009:06:25 16:22:43-07:00
1 year, 10 months, 2 days, 7 hours, 12 minutes, 53 seconds ago
Metadata Date   2009:06:25 16:22:43-07:00
1 year, 10 months, 2 days, 7 hours, 12 minutes, 53 seconds ago
Exif Version   0221
Flashpix Version   0100
Color Space   sRGB
Compressed Bits Per Pixel   4
Date/Time Original   2009:06:25 12:08:08-07:00
1 year, 10 months, 2 days, 11 hours, 27 minutes, 28 seconds ago
Date/Time Digitized   2009:06:25 12:08:08-07:00
1 year, 10 months, 2 days, 11 hours, 27 minutes, 28 seconds ago
Exif Image Size   1,920 × 1,080
Exposure Time   1/250
F Number   4.5
Exposure Program   Shutter speed priority AE
Exposure Compensation   0
Max Aperture Value   3.5
Metering Mode   Multi-segment
Light Source   Flash
Focal Length   24.0 mm
Sensing Method   One-chip color area
Custom Rendered   Normal
Exposure Mode   Auto
White Balance   Manual
Digital Zoom Ratio   1
Focal Length In 35mm Format   36 mm
Scene Capture Type   Standard
Gain Control   Low gain up
Contrast   Normal
Saturation   Normal
Sharpness   Normal
Subject Distance Range   Unknown
GPS Version ID   2.2.0.0
Native Digest   256, 257, 258, 259, 262, 274, 277, 284, 530, 531, 282, 283, 296, 301, 318, 319, 529, 532, 306, 270, 271, 272, 305, 315, 33432;DF061294D3FD73E246D68E8FB80AA6C8
Native Digest   36864, 40960, 40961, 37121, 37122, 40962, 40963, 37510, 40964, 36867, 36868, 33434, 33437, 34850, 34852, 34855, 34856, 37377, 37378, 37379, 37380, 37381, 37382, 37383, 37384, 37385, 37386, 37396, 41483, 41484, 41486, 41487, 41488, 41492, 41493, 41495, 41728, 41729, 41730, 41985, 41986, 41987, 41988, 41989, 41990, 41991, 41992, 41993, 41994, 41995, 41996, 42016, 0, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30;DF3BD921DE547DC3D30ED2B3EE1077B8
ISO   400
Flash Fired   True
Flash Return   Return detected
Flash Mode   Unknown
Flash Function   False
Flash Red Eye Mode   False
Format   image/jpeg
Description   ©NATIONAL PHOTO GROUP Emergency crews respond to the home of Michael Jackson where he was treated medically and then rushed to UCLA Medical Center. Job: 062509J4 EXCLUSIVE June 25th, 2009 Los Angeles, CA nationalphotogroup.com
Creator   National Photo Group
Rights   National Photo Group
Headline   Michael Jackson Rushed to Hospital in Ambulance
Instructions   000
Credit   National Photo Group
City   Los Angeles
State   CA
Country   USA
Color Mode   RGB
ICC Profile Name   sRGB IEC61966-2.1
History   
Instance ID   uuid:666D4F36B462DE11969AC4C4257E6255
Document ID   uuid:656D4F36B462DE11969AC4C4257E6255
Derived From   
Resolution   72 pixels/inch
Raw XMP data   (17,874 bytes binary data)
ExifTool
Warning   Non-standard header for APP1 XMP segment
JFIF
JFIF Version   1.01
Resolution   72 pixels/inch
File — basic information derived from the file.
File Type   JPEG
MIME Type   image/jpeg
Encoding Process   Baseline DCT, Huffman coding
Bits Per Sample   8
Color Components   3
File Size   72 kB
Image Size   400 × 350
Y Cb Cr Sub Sampling   YCbCr4:4:4 (1 1)
Composite
This block of data is computed based upon other items. Some of it may be wildly incorrect, especially if the image has been resized.
Aperture   4.5
Scale Factor To 35 mm Equivalent   1.5
Shutter Speed   1/250
Circle Of Confusion   0.020 mm
Field Of View   53.1 deg
Focal Length   24.0 mm (35 mm equivalent: 36.0 mm)
Hyperfocal Distance   6.39 m
Light Value   10.3
This application uses Phil Harvey's most excellent Image::ExifTool library, version 8.50. Histograms created with ImageMagick.
Jeffrey last modifed this viewer on Mar 21, 2011.
and here is also a little bit about Extensible Metadata Platform (XMP) http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp/ (http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp/)

So picture was taken on June 25, 2009   12:08:08PM (timezone is 7 hours behind GMT)
(1 year, 10 months, 2 days, 11 hours, 27 minutes, 28 seconds ago) Here is a problem with that timing: the timing and date can be easily corrected by the holder of original picture. So Ben or Chris could easily change the time and date, but what for? They could've changed it for the better timing when it was actually supposed to be taken. Not 18 minutes before ambulance even arrived to the house. To make a clue for people? how many people actually know about Exif data, i found out about it only today  :lol: So does it mean that there was only one day? 06/25/09 but Ben and Chris came a little bit earlier?  :) It doesn't show any kind of information on photoshop when it usually always does, please do check your own pictures and will show you everything. Very weird, i'm still trying to work on that  :oops:
Here is another cool thing i found about Exif  :D If the picture is uploaded by the original holder of a picture and picture was taken on Iphone you can know the exact location of when and where the picture was taken, here is a little example  http://chrisoconnell.com/2009_04_01_archive.html (http://chrisoconnell.com/2009_04_01_archive.html) there is a picture called "Hoolyweird" and it has all the information on where and what time the picture was taken http://regex.info/exif.cgi?b=3&referer= ... 783093.jpg (http://regex.info/exif.cgi?b=3&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fchrisoconnell.com%2Fuploaded_images%2Fphoto-783093.jpg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fchrisoconnell.com%2Fuploaded_images%2Fphoto-783093.jpg) A little bit off topic, but i thought it was cool. I checked some of my pics and again the location and date was correct  :lol:. "I always feel like somebody's watching me and i have no privacy"  :shock:

Quote
Finally, it is possible of course to fabricate identical plants one year apart.  But why?  It would take a lot of attention to detail, and a lot of work.  It would probably even require using artificial plants at least in some places, because real plants will not look exactly the same one year later—no matter how carefully you groom and work them.  And who would do the work, without wondering why?  Or would the landscaper be someone already in on the hoax?

Here i'll agree with you, why go through so much trouble with plants. I love growing plants myself, i'm not a professional, but i think i'm pretty good at it. And it's impossible to control the way your plant will grow (how many leaves or flowers it will have) and even if professional people can, again why bother so much about it? ;)


I L.O.V.E you all so much! :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 28, 2011, 03:32:48 AM
It wasn't what I was thinking, but then again, I feel totally ignored on this site anyhow.. :(  :(  :(  :(  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

And what's up with one light on, and one off on the gates of the driveway..??

OH by the way, Katherine Jacksons is selling flowers for mothers day..
There already was a video released from someone on the tour bus that day  TS :?:  :?:

http://www.wat.tv/video/michael-jackson ... exyf_.html (http://www.wat.tv/video/michael-jackson-ambulance-1lnmx_2exyf_.html)

and it totally shows people with cameras......and videos and talking.  

TS, this is the video I have been comparing with Ben Evenstads video...link above
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 28, 2011, 03:42:37 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Sorry for your frustration.  However, I am not changing theories around from one day to the next; maybe others have, but I have not.

If I know what is up, just say it?   I do, but people don't believe me.  So I have to back it up with evidence; and that is not as easy as you might think.

Anyway, don't give up now.  We have come too far, and are too near the end, to throw in the towel now!   :)

THANK YOU TS for you support, so sweet of you! :D I'm new here and that's why i still have a lot of power to waist, but unfortunately not as good experienced as many other investigators who were here from the beginning. So please dear believers don't give up now, and don't be mad, i know it's only your emotions saying that, i know that non of you will give up on Michael, you L.O.V.E him way too much! :D I'm very happy to be here with you and experience the greatest adventure in the World!!! :D  

TS thank you once again for all your hard work and that you're not giving up on us! WE L.O.V.E you very much!  :D  :D  :D

MICHAEL WE LOVE YOU SO SO SO SO SO SO MUCH!!! WE WILL ALWAYS BE BY YOUR SIDE, NO MATTER WHAT! THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR EVERYTHING!
I L.O.V.E YOU! :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Sarahli on April 28, 2011, 04:31:38 AM
Kristina I did not know about Efix data but my understanding would be that it is just a planted clue for people who would actually search evidences like you. The majority of the people will not go search for that kind of detail (me included) it doesn't come to mind (at least not mine :lol: ). A you say they could have made a perfect timing to match the events but they did not so it's a planted clue?

If they can change the date I presume that they can also change the information about any alteration of the picture like photoshop.

About the people present it's a good question...I would say that there were not enough to gather the whole fan community in a just few minutes... even if they were talking on the phone. They most probably were talking to only one person and not alerting the other fans to gather there. Well in reality I don't really know what to think about that. It's just that I am not convinced that nothing happened on 25th June seems too risky.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Nyuki on April 28, 2011, 04:51:45 AM
Goodmorning :P

I have a question for those who can answer. It's hard to remember everything that TS has written, it's so much and I have no time to read it all over again. So, the question is: "Has TS specifically mentioned in any post whatsoever, that MJ is alive"?

Thank you ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjisthemuses on April 28, 2011, 05:01:36 AM
Hello all, sorry If I was wrong. But I don't really in to what TS wrote from his last comment regarding proving Souza's theory about filming in 2008 is wrong.
What my believe is: Ben's ambulance photo and video were published to be the only one from papparazi. If this was a hoax, I am sure Michael doesn't want any other pap published any other photos or video which could be opposite from ben's staged photo.
So I think there is not need to create another scene to allow other people or pap take another photo or video that would show that Ben is lying.
So there was no need the ambulance to be there. if they made it in 2008, nobody would care what it is because no famous person living there, so yes! Nobody notice that it was created a year before.
TMZ told the death of Michael when he was already at UCLA, so nobody need to come to carolwood to see the scene, people just come directly to UCLA. So actually nobody know and see what has happened in the morning at Carolwood. So no point there should be another ambulance scene on June 25, 2009.

Or maybe the ambulance scene etc on June 25, 2009 just to make the story about his death is true and nobody notice it's a hoax? If there was other lucky pap get another shot and he/she is not in on it, and published the photo. And showed that Ben's one is fake, what would happened?? Would they know that it's hoax? How if there was other pap came and just wanted to check michael house, you know like normal day to find news about michael and fortunately look this ambulance scene?? And they know something not right etc? And find it's a hoax or it's not Michael in the ambulance, or etc.
But then I confusing myself again, how if there were paps came and saw nothing while ben got the footage. So there should be ambulance scene to show that ben got the photos and footage from that day....

I think someday should help me. I ma starting contradicting myself....oh God why I am so stupid??
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 28, 2011, 06:33:19 AM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote
*pokes TS*

You said couple times a week. That was 9 days ago.
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325003}.

Actually, I said: “… probably only once or twice a week.”

And I posted once last week (April 11), and twice this week (today, April 24).   :lol:

April 11 wasn't last week TS. That was 13 days ago. And a week has 7 days as far as I know lol.

P.S: HAPPY EASTER TO YOU and TO YOUR LOVED ONES TS. :)

Now all is clear, TS is Kenny Ortega "we were right here a week ago!!"  :lol:

:lol: that was a good one Gina :lol:

yeah, they both have trouble with counting the weeks hahaha!!
I see that TS compensates now, he is so kind to be with us more lately.

Thank you thank you thank you TS  :D

Your last post makes a lot of sense, like always.
It is frustrating that opposite ideas can be backed up with reasonable arguments.
Sometimes I am at that point where I think everybody is right. Yet there has to be only one truth. How can we clean the way to that truth through so many opposite theories?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 28, 2011, 06:41:38 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
LISTEN CAREFULLY TO WHAT BEN ALMOST SAYS at the 1.03 mark !!!!!!
This is when they already had the ???????  uhhhh , he was already in the ambulance.  "what did they already have in the ambulance Ben ???  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0)
[youtube:u5croyvs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0[/youtube:u5croyvs]


nice catch  ;)  was probably it that looked like and old man  ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 28, 2011, 06:43:33 AM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
Quote from: "GodhaschosenMJ"
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
Quote from: "GodhaschosenMJ"
Hello again everyone, does anyone remember something about MJ having his face mutilated during CPR? An article or ? Any help finding this info would be appreciated! Thanks!


only thing i remember about that is that is was the supposed reason the family gave for no open casket. i think that is correct. backup anyone?

Yes, thats what I was looking for but where can we document this info? What family member said it? Was it in an interview, is there a video clip or something? Thanks! :P

Oh God that would be so near the beginning . Do we still have archives from before the changing of the guards ( :lol: ) . that is the only way i know to even begin to look for it. it might take a small mirical to find it.

It's about halfway down this article..it says his face was damaged from the oxygen mask..etc.
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/7321/53/
I guess La Toya said it also, someplace...

Our link..
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3345&p=52195&hilit=face+during+cpr#p52195 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3345&p=52195&hilit=face+during+cpr#p52195)

thanks ford ! will read later , gotta go earn my keep  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 28, 2011, 07:24:43 AM
Quote from: "Nyuki"
Goodmorning :P

I have a question for those who can answer. It's hard to remember everything that TS has written, it's so much and I have no time to read it all over again. So, the question is: "Has TS specifically mentioned in any post whatsoever, that MJ is alive"?

Thank you ;)
Nyuki, if it makes you feel better, yes he did.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Nyuki on April 28, 2011, 07:45:49 AM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Quote from: "Nyuki"
Goodmorning :P

I have a question for those who can answer. It's hard to remember everything that TS has written, it's so much and I have no time to read it all over again. So, the question is: "Has TS specifically mentioned in any post whatsoever, that MJ is alive"?

Thank you ;)
Nyuki, if it makes you feel better, yes he did.

Thank you very much Anna :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Terror2k10 on April 28, 2011, 08:41:52 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Let me first answer why there were not more people on the scene, if it was really 6-25-09.  The fact is that there were more people there than just Ben and Chris; there were a couple of other people with cameras, plus the tour bus and video.  You ask why no pictures from those in the tour bus; there were not a lot of people in the bus, and we do have one video from the bus.  Others either didn’t have a camera, or didn’t bother to use it, or took pictures but didn’t post them on the internet (since a video was already posted from the bus, who would need more pictures?).

Why no crowd showed up?  TMZ did not report the ambulance until 1:30PM, about 20 minutes after it left the house {http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-rushed-to-the-hospital/}.  They were first on the death, were they 45 minutes later than other news media on the ambulance?  If not, then people did not get the news in time to travel to Carolwood before the ambulance left.  As far as people at Carolwood calling friends: paps would not do this (even if not in on the hoax), because it would just generate more competition for getting a good shot.  People in the tour bus may not have had a cell phone with them, and even if so they probably were visiting from a distance and did not have friends in the neighborhood to pop by and see what’s up with 20 or 30 minutes notice.

Speaking of the tour bus: if it was 2008, why were they even taking a tour of that house—and why bother to wait for an ambulance at the house where nobody famous lives?  Or shall we say that everyone on the whole bus was in on the hoax?  And if so, why?  If it was filmed on 6-25-09, you don’t need to have all the props (meticulous detail to plants) and a bus load of people in on it, etc.

What if another pap showed up on 6-25-09, and tried to take a picture through the window?  Not a big deal; the windows were dark, and very hard to get any shot worth publishing.  Only Chris had the “magic camera” to get the perfect shot; and that is the picture which would make big news, not the picture from some unplanned pap.  So the question again: why all the trouble to film one year in advance?  It would only increase people needed to be in on it.

Also when Ben said “that day  and the other day”, the context was June 25, 2009 being “that day”.  Furthermore, if it was filmed in 2008, there would be no need for TWO days of photography.  The same day and time they had the ambulance at Carolwood, that would be the time and place to get the staged ambulance photo.  Because no MJ living there, and nobody would be looking or suspicious.  So again, why would Ben talk about TWO DIFFERENT days of photography?  If he was lying, why?  If it was accidental truth, then there were two days: staged photo before 6-25-09, and video on 6-25-09; or if it was an intentional clue, then we still have two days involved.  Either way, there is no need for two different days if it was all filmed in 2008.

For the ambulance at UCLA, please explain your theory clearer.  Was the alarm pushed before or after #71 arrived?  And did it arrive just at the right time from a real emergency?  Or if not, then who/what arrived in the ambulance when it did arrive?

Finally, it is possible of course to fabricate identical plants one year apart.  But why?  It would take a lot of attention to detail, and a lot of work.  It would probably even require using artificial plants at least in some places, because real plants will not look exactly the same one year later—no matter how carefully you groom and work them.  And who would do the work, without wondering why?  Or would the landscaper be someone already in on the hoax?

And what would be the point of all this effort?  The mass media and general public would never notice differences in the plants, if they filmed in 2008 and just let the plants grow naturally for the next year (without trying to copy everything one year later).  We already know that there are many inconsistencies about the hoax which are far more glaring than plant differences—and yet the masses sleep through it all.  So who would they be trying to fool, with the extreme detail to plant matching?  Why not just let the plants be different, and have that be another clue, etc?

Please notice the finer details in the circled parts.  In the red circle, you have in both pictures not only the main plant—but also a few leaves on the ground at the left side of it.  In the green circle, you can almost count the number of leaves, and sometimes which way the leaves are facing, and they are the same in both pictures.  In the blue circle, you can see not only the left on straight up and the others bending right—but in the far left one you can see two protrusions about half way up, again the same in both pictures.  These are extremely fine details, almost impossible to be natural one year later; and would take the highest degree of skill to do this successfully on real plants—they would almost certainly have to be artificial plants.  All this trouble, for what purpose???

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben1-22.jpg)

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-41.jpg)

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben0-41.jpg)

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-40.jpg)
About the artificial plants,If this was filmed in a different season like 6 months earlier. lets say around Christmas.That would explain the reefs in the driveway,there would very  much be a need to have artificial plants. It would still be 2008,the next month the article about MJ having 6 months to live comes out.  By the way I still think it was a dummy in the ambulance,or has this been debunked yet?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 28, 2011, 09:02:32 AM
The leaves and trees were moving with the wind ...I tend to believe  the ambulance picture with MJ inside, was taken the same day, but just earlier in the day, and in carolwood dve....

TS mentions "MAGIC CAMERA".  This could be a program that adds effects while filming yourself on webcam.  This is the site for it.  Interesting stuff, and a story broke by TMZ, of the leaked webcam videos of MJ's children.  Was this the clue ???

http://www.shiningmorning.com/webcam-sp ... fects.html (http://www.shiningmorning.com/webcam-special-effects.html)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on April 28, 2011, 09:28:27 AM
I want to thank you all who encourage me to keep on hoaxing, including you TS.  I didn't mean to rant or sound depressed on this thread (there is one for that), but I DID want TS to know my feelings, so I placed it in his thread.
I am still no better off in the confusion, and I see that the posts following mine are not either.  TS, you posted in the very next comment to the one to me, in your first sentence, another obscure statement.  The very thing that upsets me.  Right off, you say "Let me first answer why there were not more people on the scene, if it was really 6-25-09."  Why, if you KNOW or don't know, just SAY it??  Why lead us on goose chases where we are like the blind, perhaps thinking we've picked up the golden egg when it was only goose poo!  We go on thinking we have it and then days later, you give us another "clue" that says something again obscure and double sided so we really don't know if we're right or wrong.  When you could JUST SAY IT!!
You are a very valuable, intellectual, reasoning, investigative person to us.  But, I think you lead us to feel, in your intelligence, that all you present is correct or in the "know".  We tend to give up other theories because again of your presented persona, which may be correct, when you could be just theorizing or speculating as we are.
Forgive me, please, you know how harmful I feel toward the messing with lives with this approach.  I am so grateful to your imput, I just really believe, put up or shut up.  Prove it or it's speculation.  You lead us to varied opinion, not consensus, and if you KNOW a fact, then there COULD BE a consensus.  FINALLY.  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 28, 2011, 10:03:59 AM
Here's a video on June 25. Shows the movement in the vicinity of UCLA. I did not realize about the time of recording, but it seems the fans already knew he was dead (there is a written sign RIP Michael and some people crying), so it was after the announcement of TMZ.

http://youtu.be/tyI63_Zs9F0 (http://youtu.be/tyI63_Zs9F0)

His scene is consistent with the situation described by the medical  Brazilian who works at UCLA. She said the alarm went off and everyone  get out of the hospital. Outside of UCLA, had a large agglomeration of people and they were singing songs Michael had a lot of noise and sound playing the songs of Michael at high volumes!
My opinion is that the ambulance came through the gate 71 of funds from UCLA and minutes later the alarm shoots,  to that Dr. Cooper's team fulfilled their role in history. As people ran out of the hospital, Dr Cooper feigned a help to Michael and preparing to transfer him to the coroner. So I think there could be a double instead of Michael, to disguise any possible eventuality.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 28, 2011, 10:08:51 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
The leaves and trees were moving with the wind ...I tend to believe  the ambulance picture with MJ inside, was taken the same day, but just earlier in the day, and in carolwood dve....

TS mentions "MAGIC CAMERA".  This could be a program that adds effects while filming yourself on webcam.  This is the site for it.  Interesting stuff, and a story broke by TMZ, of the leaked webcam videos of MJ's children.  Was this the clue ???

http://www.shiningmorning.com/webcam-sp ... fects.html (http://www.shiningmorning.com/webcam-special-effects.html)

Very interesting catch 2good! :D I think i had this program on my previous lap top, it's very simple to use, so you can basically have a different background, frames, effects, and these kind of stuff. But i don't know how we could connect it to the hoax :?  Another prove of ambulance picture being photoshoped?  :roll:

L.O.V.E to all!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on April 28, 2011, 10:44:57 AM
I went looking for "magic camera" and magicians....
David Copperfield has this funny little trick with a camera.  I actually think it makes a good point of how of easy it is make the camera appear to filming something....when it's not.

[youtube:sjq2fpfs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g13HLeCy7k&feature=player_embedded[/youtube:sjq2fpfs]

I have got to learn how to embed!!!  I think that will require stronger tea or coffee, lol!

Blessings!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 28, 2011, 11:01:57 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Let me first answer why there were not more people on the scene, if it was really 6-25-09.  The fact is that there were more people there than just Ben and Chris; there were a couple of other people with cameras, plus the tour bus and video.  You ask why no pictures from those in the tour bus; there were not a lot of people in the bus, and we do have one video from the bus.  Others either didn’t have a camera, or didn’t bother to use it, or took pictures but didn’t post them on the internet (since a video was already posted from the bus, who would need more pictures?).

Hello TS, I will do my best to debunk what you've written.  ;)   If these people on the tour bus knew they were outside of “Michael’s” house, they would learn later that day what they had witnessed – there was no escaping the news the MJ “died”.  If there was one person posted a video, it stands to reason that anyone else who was taking footage/pics that day would have as well since it’s historical footage.  I think the ambulance footage was filmed before anyone knew MJ lived there and the one video from the tour bus could’ve been someone “in on” the hoax.  Why not?  This person takes the scheduled tour knowing it would pass by the Carolwood home at that time and films what is going on.  This does not have to be on June 25th.

Quote from: "TS_comments"
Why no crowd showed up?  TMZ did not report the ambulance until 1:30PM, about 20 minutes after it left the house {http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-rushed-to-the-hospital/}.  They were first on the death, were they 45 minutes later than other news media on the ambulance?  If not, then people did not get the news in time to travel to Carolwood before the ambulance left.  As far as people at Carolwood calling friends: paps would not do this (even if not in on the hoax), because it would just generate more competition for getting a good shot.  People in the tour bus may not have had a cell phone with them, and even if so they probably were visiting from a distance and did not have friends in the neighborhood to pop by and see what’s up with 20 or 30 minutes notice.

Speaking of the tour bus: if it was 2008, why were they even taking a tour of that house—and why bother to wait for an ambulance at the house where nobody famous lives?  Or shall we say that everyone on the whole bus was in on the hoax?  And if so, why?  If it was filmed on 6-25-09, you don’t need to have all the props (meticulous detail to plants) and a bus load of people in on it, etc.

There are other famous residents on Carolwood Dr, past and present.  There is no reason why a tour bus wouldn’t pass that house, and didn’t Elvis live right across the street as well?  I also read that Sean Connery lived at 100 N Carolwood Dr before Michael but I can’t find that anywhere now so it may not be true.  Anyways, as for stopping because the ambulance was there – how many times have you seen people slow right down when passing fire trucks/ambulances and craning their necks to see what’s going on?  The bus driver may have just stopped for a few seconds to see what was up, curiosity is a natural reaction to emergency vehicles.

Quote from: "TS_comments"
What if another pap showed up on 6-25-09, and tried to take a picture through the window?  Not a big deal; the windows were dark, and very hard to get any shot worth publishing.  Only Chris had the “magic camera” to get the perfect shot; and that is the picture which would make big news, not the picture from some unplanned pap.  So the question again: why all the trouble to film one year in advance?  It would only increase people needed to be in on it.

Also when Ben said “that day  and the other day”, the context was June 25, 2009 being “that day”.  Furthermore, if it was filmed in 2008, there would be no need for TWO days of photography.  The same day and time they had the ambulance at Carolwood, that would be the time and place to get the staged ambulance photo.  Because no MJ living there, and nobody would be looking or suspicious.  So again, why would Ben talk about TWO DIFFERENT days of photography?  If he was lying, why?  If it was accidental truth, then there were two days: staged photo before 6-25-09, and video on 6-25-09; or if it was an intentional clue, then we still have two days involved.  Either way, there is no need for two different days if it was all filmed in 2008.

I personally don’t think it was filmed a year in advance, I think it was December 2008.
Quote from: "Andrea"
I mentioned this in an earlier post but will repeat it as I think it's an important clue. I can't get over that TMZ posted a story about Michael's alleged declining health on 12/21/08 at 12:26pm. The 911 call time (date of article) and ambulance arrival time (time of article). http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-j (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/21/michael-j) ... lpha-male/ I realize that other media outlets were reporting the same story about Michael's health that day but what are the chances of the TMZ article being posted at 12:26? Seems like a HUGE coincidence.  

12/21/08 is also exactly 4 years from 12/21/12 (we have 4 years to get it right). 12/21 is the shortest day of the year or the longest night/darkness of the year, the winter solstice. It was sunny in L.A. on 12/21/08, a Sunday, and also the day before TMZ told everyone that Michael was living at Carolwood. http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-j (http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/22/michael-j) ... -new-crib/ Maybe the ambulance footage was taken on 12/21/08 or before because if something was going down at Michael Jackson's place with emergency vehicles parked outside for 40 minutes, you can bet the media would've been swarming and fans gathering. The whole scene that day was just too eerily calm.

Also, 12/21/2008...1+2+2+1+2+8=16...1+6=7 and 12:26...1+2+2+6=11
7 and 11. "See you in July"...2011.

TS, you say it wasn’t filmed a year in advance but you don’t say anything about 6 months.  And yes, I realize you said it wasn’t 2008 but I think it’s totally possible.  And there were an awfully lot of leaves on the ground in the footage for June, it seems like the leaves on the ground are more suited to a different time of year, like say, December.  And “that” day would still be June 25th because that’s the official story right?  The “other day” is still just one day.

Quote from: "TS_comments"
For the ambulance at UCLA, please explain your theory clearer.  Was the alarm pushed before or after #71 arrived?  And did it arrive just at the right time from a real emergency?  Or if not, then who/what arrived in the ambulance when it did arrive?

I think the alarm was pulled to create confusion and distraction.  I don’t think anybody realized that Michael Jackson had supposedly arrived at the hospital until after it was pulled, that’s my thought.  Maybe #71 got there around that time or was already there but for continuity reasons, not because it was carrying Michael/dummy/corpse/whatever.  That happened the “other day” even though a trip to the hospital would’ve been unnecessary and probably never happened.  And maybe that “other day” was 6 months before.

Quote from: "TS_comments"
Finally, it is possible of course to fabricate identical plants one year apart.  But why?  It would take a lot of attention to detail, and a lot of work.  It would probably even require using artificial plants at least in some places, because real plants will not look exactly the same one year later—no matter how carefully you groom and work them.  And who would do the work, without wondering why?  Or would the landscaper be someone already in on the hoax?

And what would be the point of all this effort?  The mass media and general public would never notice differences in the plants, if they filmed in 2008 and just let the plants grow naturally for the next year (without trying to copy everything one year later).  We already know that there are many inconsistencies about the hoax which are far more glaring than plant differences—and yet the masses sleep through it all.  So who would they be trying to fool, with the extreme detail to plant matching?  Why not just let the plants be different, and have that be another clue, etc?

Please notice the finer details in the circled parts.  In the red circle, you have in both pictures not only the main plant—but also a few leaves on the ground at the left side of it.  In the green circle, you can almost count the number of leaves, and sometimes which way the leaves are facing, and they are the same in both pictures.  In the blue circle, you can see not only the left on straight up and the others bending right—but in the far left one you can see two protrusions about half way up, again the same in both pictures.  These are extremely fine details, almost impossible to be natural one year later; and would take the highest degree of skill to do this successfully on real plants—they would almost certainly have to be artificial plants.  All this trouble, for what purpose???

Again, I don’t think it was a year, I think it was 6 months.   Like I said, there seem to be a lot of leaves on the ground for June although I could be wrong about that because I'm not a tree expert.  And it’s really not that much effort or trouble and a landscaper does not need to be “in on it” at all.  The landscaper just needs to be told to trim everything regularly and keep it looking the same.  That’s not unreasonable or suspicious at all in my opinion.   Why would it just be left to grow naturally in a posh neighbourhood where landscapers would be abundant?  

So that was my attempt at debunking you TS.   :ugeek:  :?  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 28, 2011, 11:11:01 AM
Andrea, it absolutely cannot be filmed in December. The cast of the shadows indicates it is summer in the ambulance video, there is no getting around how high the sun is in the sky. If it had been filmed in December, the shadows would be extremely long and the deciduous trees would be bare. Also the daylillies would not be up and growing, neither would the flowering vine.

Additionally, the plants are blooming and they are mature perennials. Plants do not bloom in the off season, you cannot force them to or fake that, it's impossible to do so with living plants. The entire landscape would have to be faked, along with the lighting.

The ambulance video was filmed in the summer, this is a fact that would be very difficult to get around.

Thanks to scorpionchick's recent pics at Carrolwood, I may be able to prove that it could have been filmed a year prior however. Gimme another day or two, I'm working on it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 28, 2011, 11:25:46 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Andrea, it absolutely cannot be filmed in December. The cast of the shadows indicates it is summer in the ambulance video, there is no getting around how high the sun is in the sky. If it had been filmed in December, the shadows would be extremely long and the deciduous trees would be bare. Also the daylillies would not be up and growing, neither would the flowering vine.

Additionally, the plants are blooming and they are mature perennials. Plants do not bloom in the off season, you cannot force them to or fake that, it's impossible to do so with living plants. The entire landscape would have to be faked, along with the lighting.

The ambulance video was filmed in the summer, this is a fact that would be very difficult to get around.

Thanks to scorpionchick's recent pics at Carrolwood, I may be able to prove that it could have been filmed a year prior however. Gimme another day or two, I'm working on it.

Mmmk, fair enough but it could've been filmed at the time of day when it could look like the summer.  And who knows, maybe one of those big hovering light things was overhead, like at the funeral.  If this is a movie, then the "scene" could've been set up as they want.  I'm sure they film summer scenes in the winter in L.A.

As for the plants/trees, I do not know what kind are in the video or pics but it's L.A. where it stays warm all year so maybe the vegetation that was originally planted was intended for year-round curb appeal, not just during the summer months.

Your reply doesn't convince me that it wasn't December although I'm not saying that I'm right about this.  If anyone wants to debunk and prove to me for sure it couldn't be in December then great, I can focus my thoughts away from that.  At this point, I've had so many thoughts about so many possible scenarios - it would help to trim those down.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 28, 2011, 11:52:10 AM
Andrea, you cannot force deciduous trees to leaf out in December. There is no time of day in December where the sun is directly overhead, as it is at noon in June. The shadows are consistent with being approx 1pm in June in the ambulance video.

You know at this point, it takes so much work and effort to convince others of facts that I know to be true I wonder (and really have doubts about) whether it's worth it. I have a business to run and a house to keep up and loved ones that need my time. I made such little money last year due to the amount of time I devoted to the hoax it's really rather embarrassing. I do the research and satisfy my own curiosity, it takes an equal amount of time to compile it and arrange it so that others might also understand. Others are so (rightfully) skeptical that most really don't believe anything unless they go dig it up for themselves. I'm about done here and ready to just keep watching, anyone else feel similarly?

Those watersprouts coming off the boxwood as shown in the pics TS posted would absolutely grow similarly year after year, and do, and have and are. I know this. I don't have time to show the rest of you. I'm sorry.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: curls on April 28, 2011, 12:47:09 PM
Bec's right, everyone believes what they want to believe. They go with whatever 'theory' sits well with them at any given time. Some hold sure and don't/won't waver. Others change with the wind as each new seemingly plausible one comes along. That's not a criticism of anyone, just an observation of human nature.

I know we're not 'supposed' to be using emotions in this investigation, but I often think my heart, my emotions, my common sense maybe, are truer guides in this than any amount of theorising based on sometimes flimsy, imaginative 'evidence'. I've said before what I believe and am not about to repeat myself, other than to say that gut instincts did play a part in me forming those beliefs. I won't apologise for that - in a situation such as this hoax where I've learnt to be cautious about believing anything I hear or see, I really have nothing left but common sense and instinct to guide me.

I was wondering today what I actually KNOW AS A PROVEN FACT in this whole thing and all I could come up with is that the media reported that MJ died on 25th June 2009. The media reported. Honestly, does anyone know anything else for certain of that day's happenings?!

Gut feelings, instincts, emotions and common sense may not stand up in court but they are good everyday indicators about the state of things. Indeed, they are what brought most, if not all of us here in the first place. If they are not to be trusted and are useless in our investigations, it begs the question, should we be here at all?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 28, 2011, 12:53:44 PM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I want to thank you all who encourage me to keep on hoaxing, including you TS.  I didn't mean to rant or sound depressed on this thread (there is one for that), but I DID want TS to know my feelings, so I placed it in his thread.
I am still no better off in the confusion, and I see that the posts following mine are not either.  TS, you posted in the very next comment to the one to me, in your first sentence, another obscure statement.  The very thing that upsets me.  Right off, you say "Let me first answer why there were not more people on the scene, if it was really 6-25-09."  Why, if you KNOW or don't know, just SAY it??  Why lead us on goose chases where we are like the blind, perhaps thinking we've picked up the golden egg when it was only goose poo!  We go on thinking we have it and then days later, you give us another "clue" that says something again obscure and double sided so we really don't know if we're right or wrong.  When you could JUST SAY IT!!You are a very valuable, intellectual, reasoning, investigative person to us.  But, I think you lead us to feel, in your intelligence, that all you present is correct or in the "know". We tend to give up other theories because again of your presented persona, which may be correct, when you could be just theorizing or speculating as we are.
Forgive me, please, you know how harmful I feel toward the messing with lives with this approach.  I am so grateful to your imput, I just really believe, put up or shut up.  Prove it or it's speculation.  You lead us to varied opinion, not consensus, and if you KNOW a fact, then there COULD BE a consensus.  FINALLY.

There is method to the madness.

Of course, TS KNOWs, if he is in anyway on the inside of this Mystery. Either he is writing it as he goes (NO), or he and MJ (and one other, I think ;) )have already worked out the millions of little details in this complex legal case, which will make or break the case, depending on an important hurdle of unpredictability:  the thoughts (deductions) and emotions which form jury opinion, which decides the outcome of the case, barring judicial overrule.

I think "TS" stands for "The Solicitor". He is male. He is an attorney. Could be Branca. Remember how they tried hard to paint him as an enemy, to throw us off his trail as in on the Hoax Plot...

WhoEVER he is, he is not a criminal attorney, but he is quick enough to know that no matter how ironclad the evidence, and how airtight the case they have worked out, everything can go WAY south if they cannot convince a jury. :!: People are quirky.

The object of this game (figuratively speaking) here, is not to come right out and tell us what TS already mostly knows (they may be deciding about something or other, yet).

It is not to build or flesh out their case, either, which I think, barring new evidence, is wrapped up).

It ESPECIALLY is not to frustrate us!  :) One thing may be frustrating THEM to no end :lol:  :lol:  8-) : is, that you cannot MAKE people see something which they don't (or won't) see!! THEY must point it out, unmistakeably. It is the lawyer's job.

A CRAFTY lawyer can put an innocent man in prison for a lifetime, convincing people that they see something which is not EVEN there. This is where the phrase came from that "Lawyers are LIARS".

But, a man of integrity, who wishes to hone his craft and consistently win for his clients, with the TRUTH, NEEDs to be able to paint the facts, logically, inside the heads of unlimited types of people, any given day: the distracted, the disinterested, those selected for jury against their preference, the under educated (on the subject at hand), the immature (growing old doesn't mean growing up), the antagonistic or hostile, people who, from the get go, hold prejudice for your client, and on and on and on.... :shock:

It is a test,  ;) (NOT of US) to see if presenting evidence in various ways will better control the outcome of opinion. The genius is in trying to "make us see" (where have we heard THAT?); or, trying to see if they CAN make all different kinds of people, SEE how it IS and win the case. See?  :)

There is NO pressure on us. :P  Yeah, use your "noodle", but, don't worry about it! It is supposed to be fun and educational. I refuse to feel like a lab mouse intellect (squeak), next to some of the ultra intelligent, here, because photography was never my thing, professionally or recreationally. I help myself to cheese every day, whether I'm rewarded here or NOT. We all have different things to add. It is not a competition.  :D

TS simply needs to make it clearer. If he were trying this case in court, and he can't give US (the most interested and focused audience EVER) enough facts arranged to be crystal clear to US, how are the actual attorneys going to prove it to the average joe? :?  :shock:  :geek:

Just throwing that out there.... ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on April 28, 2011, 01:47:33 PM
Quote from: "Andrea"
Quote from: "bec"
Andrea, it absolutely cannot be filmed in December. The cast of the shadows indicates it is summer in the ambulance video, there is no getting around how high the sun is in the sky. If it had been filmed in December, the shadows would be extremely long and the deciduous trees would be bare. Also the daylillies would not be up and growing, neither would the flowering vine.

Additionally, the plants are blooming and they are mature perennials. Plants do not bloom in the off season, you cannot force them to or fake that, it's impossible to do so with living plants. The entire landscape would have to be faked, along with the lighting.

The ambulance video was filmed in the summer, this is a fact that would be very difficult to get around.

Thanks to scorpionchick's recent pics at Carrolwood, I may be able to prove that it could have been filmed a year prior however. Gimme another day or two, I'm working on it.

Mmmk, fair enough but it could've been filmed at the time of day when it could look like the summer.  And who knows, maybe one of those big hovering light things was overhead, like at the funeral.  If this is a movie, then the "scene" could've been set up as they want.  I'm sure they film summer scenes in the winter in L.A.

As for the plants/trees, I do not know what kind are in the video or pics but it's L.A. where it stays warm all year so maybe the vegetation that was originally planted was intended for year-round curb appeal, not just during the summer months.

Your reply doesn't convince me that it wasn't December although I'm not saying that I'm right about this.  If anyone wants to debunk and prove to me for sure it couldn't be in December then great, I can focus my thoughts away from that.  At this point, I've had so many thoughts about so many possible scenarios - it would help to trim those down.

I keep thinking about the Dome Project, green screens and 3 / 4 D technology. There's more possible than we can imagine to set up a movie or picture scene exactly according to plan.
I think it's very possible to imitate natural sunlight and artificial plants and trees are hard to distinguish from the real ones. If that is possible, besides the movie, a very interesting and innovative "making of" documentary can be produced.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: peacock7 on April 28, 2011, 02:24:35 PM
I thought the below info on link is interesting and might ring a bell or two.  How lucky for them, indeed that they had so much access to an empty house.  LOL!  MJ and children didn't live at that house.  It is not even MJ's style, IMO.

"National Photo Group, from the beginning, “wanted to be the Michael Jackson agency,” Evenstad says. “There’s always money to be made with Michael, so we started shooting him every day.” Last fall, when Jackson moved into the Bel-Air Hotel, in Los Angeles, Christopher Weiss and another photographer were assigned to be, as Weiss puts it, “soldiers of the sit.” He, too, became friendly with the singer’s core group of fans: mostly young, attractive, European women."

"Last December, National became the first photo agency to learn the address of the mansion Jackson was renting on North Carolwood Drive, in the Holmby Hills section of Los Angeles. Evenstad, who was also friendly with members of Jackson’s staff, managed to keep the location a secret for a couple of weeks."

http://www.themjifc.com/forum/michael-j ... se-up.html (http://www.themjifc.com/forum/michael-jackson/10551-michael-jackson-s-last-close-up.html)

TS, please at least reiterate your POINT for leading folks to look for what - in the tea leaves?  You ask why would Ben lie about that day and the other day.  Why not?

I agree that it all could be green screened like the HD Funeral .  And yes, the Dome Project is a huge part of the Movie Picture.  Lol, remember they used to call them "movie pictures" taken with a magic camera?  Like the 12 HD cameras Kenny was speaking about.

http://www.evidentproductions.com/other ... art18.html (http://www.evidentproductions.com/other-topics/mj-part18.html)

Sorry if a little off topic, but remember when Frank Dileo talked about how much the "magic camera", cost?  Please scroll.

http://www.igroops.com/members/httpfair ... ip-up.html (http://www.igroops.com/members/httpfairycom/comm/READ/00004793/Frank-Dileo-Interview-Slip-up.html)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TheMoonIsDancing on April 28, 2011, 02:36:39 PM
Quote from: "bec"
You know at this point, it takes so much work and effort to convince others of facts that I know to be true I wonder (and really have doubts about) whether it's worth it. I have a business to run and a house to keep up and loved ones that need my time. I made such little money last year due to the amount of time I devoted to the hoax it's really rather embarrassing. I do the research and satisfy my own curiosity, it takes an equal amount of time to compile it and arrange it so that others might also understand. Others are so (rightfully) skeptical that most really don't believe anything unless they go dig it up for themselves. I'm about done here and ready to just keep watching, anyone else feel similarly?

I know where you're coming from. And thank you for dedicated so much time to the hoax, the majority of us are grateful for it. We need people with different types of expertise to successfully find every clue. Some aren't as serious and some just don't know where to look. But thanks! MJ appreciates it and so do we :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on April 28, 2011, 05:04:39 PM
Hi guys ...

What we find here? Somebody help me or correct me if I'm wrong.
So, the picture of the ambulance was fotshopada (with patterns of leaves and the red car) and tested days prior to June 25. Ben did not get that picture because it would be impossible to get an image as sharp through glass with dark film, then as a friend he was chosen to be the guy in the picture.
At least some paramedics are in play as well as Murray and Alvarez, who are fulfilling the requirements of the FBI. TS has not confirmed whether Dr Cooper and coroners are nor what type of engagement between Michael, Murray and FBI. He just made ​​us understand that this is a control of public corruption by the FBI and is not a witness protection program.
For the past posts, TS said that there was corpse dead and that all happened in real time and was not filmed long before June 25, 2009.
I do not know if I mistake or forgot something important, I just wanted to know if we've already got some  conclusions .
Regarding UCLA, I hope its the next level of discussion. The ambulance arrived at UCLA or not? Why sounded the alarm? Who came out on tehelicopter. Dr. Cooper's is inside?

TS, can be? Please? (http://content.sweetim.com/sim/cpie/emoticons/00020166.gif)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjj4ever777 on April 28, 2011, 05:14:41 PM
Quote from: "Its her"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I want to thank you all who encourage me to keep on hoaxing, including you TS.  I didn't mean to rant or sound depressed on this thread (there is one for that), but I DID want TS to know my feelings, so I placed it in his thread.
I am still no better off in the confusion, and I see that the posts following mine are not either.  TS, you posted in the very next comment to the one to me, in your first sentence, another obscure statement.  The very thing that upsets me.  Right off, you say "Let me first answer why there were not more people on the scene, if it was really 6-25-09."  Why, if you KNOW or don't know, just SAY it??  Why lead us on goose chases where we are like the blind, perhaps thinking we've picked up the golden egg when it was only goose poo!  We go on thinking we have it and then days later, you give us another "clue" that says something again obscure and double sided so we really don't know if we're right or wrong.  When you could JUST SAY IT!!You are a very valuable, intellectual, reasoning, investigative person to us.  But, I think you lead us to feel, in your intelligence, that all you present is correct or in the "know". We tend to give up other theories because again of your presented persona, which may be correct, when you could be just theorizing or speculating as we are.
Forgive me, please, you know how harmful I feel toward the messing with lives with this approach.  I am so grateful to your imput, I just really believe, put up or shut up.  Prove it or it's speculation.  You lead us to varied opinion, not consensus, and if you KNOW a fact, then there COULD BE a consensus.  FINALLY.

There is method to the madness.

Of course, TS KNOWs, if he is in anyway on the inside of this Mystery. Either he is writing it as he goes (NO), or he and MJ (and one other, I think ;) )have already worked out the millions of little details in this complex legal case, which will make or break the case, depending on an important hurdle of unpredictability:  the thoughts (deductions) and emotions which form jury opinion, which decides the outcome of the case, barring judicial overrule.

I think "TS" stands for "The Solicitor". He is male. He is an attorney. Could be Branca. Remember how they tried hard to paint him as an enemy, to throw us off his trail as in on the Hoax Plot...

WhoEVER he is, he is not a criminal attorney, but he is quick enough to know that no matter how ironclad the evidence, and how airtight the case they have worked out, everything can go WAY south if they cannot convince a jury. :!: People are quirky.

The object of this game (figuratively speaking) here, is not to come right out and tell us what TS already mostly knows (they may be deciding about something or other, yet).

It is not to build or flesh out their case, either, which I think, barring new evidence, is wrapped up).

It ESPECIALLY is not to frustrate us!  :) One thing may be frustrating THEM to no end :lol:  :lol:  8-) : is, that you cannot MAKE people see something which they don't (or won't) see!! THEY must point it out, unmistakeably. It is the lawyer's job.

A CRAFTY lawyer can put an innocent man in prison for a lifetime, convincing people that they see something which is not EVEN there. This is where the phrase came from that "Lawyers are LIARS".

But, a man of integrity, who wishes to hone his craft and consistently win for his clients, with the TRUTH, NEEDs to be able to paint the facts, logically, inside the heads of unlimited types of people, any given day: the distracted, the disinterested, those selected for jury against their preference, the under educated (on the subject at hand), the immature (growing old doesn't mean growing up), the antagonistic or hostile, people who, from the get go, hold prejudice for your client, and on and on and on.... :shock:

It is a test,  ;) (NOT of US) to see if presenting evidence in various ways will better control the outcome of opinion. The genius is in trying to "make us see" (where have we heard THAT?); or, trying to see if they CAN make all different kinds of people, SEE how it IS and win the case. See?  :)

There is NO pressure on us. :P  Yeah, use your "noodle", but, don't worry about it! It is supposed to be fun and educational. I refuse to feel like a lab mouse intellect (squeak), next to some of the ultra intelligent, here, because photography was never my thing, professionally or recreationally. I help myself to cheese every day, whether I'm rewarded here or NOT. We all have different things to add. It is not a competition.  :D

TS simply needs to make it clearer. If he were trying this case in court, and he can't give US (the most interested and focused audience EVER) enough facts arranged to be crystal clear to US, how are the actual attorneys going to prove it to the average joe? :?  :shock:  :geek:

Just throwing that out there.... ;)


LOVE your post It's her!! I don't comment too much on this thread, but I do read and study the contents daily, and I must say that I think that your post makes absolute sense. "WE", this forum, have a special part in this hoax, we may even be more important then we think ;) I wouldn't be surprised in the least if this hoax forum is actually brought up in the court case in some way. I mean, we are the ones who believe that Michael is alive, when the rest of the world believes that Michael is dead, so if we truly believe that Michael has hoaxed his death, and that this hoax is about to be "revealed", there is a good possibility, that the defense will actually use our information here, as evidence of "reasonable doubt" for Michael being dead, therefor Murray will not be found guilty, in the upcoming trial?  Is it possible that the whole hoax will be revealed during the trial?  I definitely feel like something is going on....Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm still trying to put together a few more pieces, but It's her, I can totally relate to your post, so thanks for posting it friend!

TS...You certainly are a"mystery aren't you?
Sending everyone all the LOVE in the world!!! Keep the Faith and NEVER stop Believing!!!

Love you most Michael, Be safe, Happy and Healthy my friend, forever in my heart and always on my mind, May you always live in peace dear brother...miss you <3<3<3<3<3<3<3
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 28, 2011, 06:49:50 PM
Something for you guys to think about......

Where is the ambulance in this picture. ?????????  
Compare the first photo, to the others I have posted...bear in mind that the first picture is taken by NPG..

Remembering that MJ is still being wheeled in on the gurney..Ben evenstads pictures once again do not match.  (now I know that the ambulance will move away for other emergencies, but not that quickly)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 28, 2011, 07:13:24 PM
And just throwing more wood into the spanner, who can explain these pictures.........I have heaps stored on my computer.Lets see who can decifer these  ;)  ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 28, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
And just to keep your minds working, lets look at other entrances that could have easily hiden an ambulance arrival without anyone noticing.....the other main entrance (the staff entrance) is located on Delfern Dve Holmby Hills:D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 28, 2011, 07:24:04 PM
What's happened to the door at the back...bad photoshopping job I'd say....its lost its stripes..like a zebra !!

I'm doing this because sometimes I think we make it more complicated than what it is.  Just look at the facts...

Pictures dont lie, but in this case, they DO.  Images can be altered.  We have pictures of an emergency entrance...but, again, this could have been staged and the media release images dont add up...I'll sit and watch for a while now I think.

Its not as complicated as we think.  KEEP IT SIMPLE friends.. ;)  ;)  ;)  BACK TO BASICS
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 28, 2011, 08:01:42 PM
One more thing before I get back to painting, is the Emergency entrance at UCLA....

Spot the differences.... :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 28, 2011, 08:35:31 PM
I agree with Andrea, and I also think you make sense TS. If you are telling the truth about the ambulance really arriving at the house and UCLA, I still say no body/ dummy/ MJ/ double for the reasons explained before, the rest of my theory untouched.

But I still see how it would be possible for not having an ambulance at all, so I am still leaning towards that. Could you explain why the ambulance NOT arriving at UCLA that day would be a problem?
It's not that I only try to make it fit because I want it to, but it still makes sense to me. And because you did say you would challenge true theories, I still have my doubts.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 28, 2011, 08:41:14 PM
Is it me or is thereflection on the door at the left off? :?

(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12806)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 28, 2011, 08:51:13 PM
BTW: It's possible that the ambulance can't be seen at this pic:

(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12806)

Because if you look at this pic, the bodyguard is farther away from the ambulance:

(http://www.radaronline.com/sites/default/files/photos/image_20090625/orphea_509j3_jackson_npg_03.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 28, 2011, 08:54:52 PM
Kristina4love - do I understand it right? That Efix tells you the pic was taken at 12:08 on June 25th?

That was before the 911 call and way before the ambulance arrived.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 28, 2011, 09:03:07 PM
The only problem I have with that thought Souza, is the reflections on the entrance doors...not the same. One clearly shows the trees in the background, but the other shows the top of the ambulance...what do you think??? God bless
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 28, 2011, 09:22:12 PM
OK, as far as I am concerned, I still think everything happened on June 25th.
 My only certainty is that something was in the ambulance - a body or a dummy, maybe MJ himself, playing dead.

I don't know for sure if the paramedics were in.

It appears they were in because they contradict the photo, old frail man versus Michael Jackson. If they are not in, why don't they reveal the photo is fake?
On the other hand, maybe they are not in, but simply not interested in stepping into the spot light with this story.
Yet they will testify in court :? .

A body wood be needed to fool the paramedics first. If they are in, there's no need for a body, because the doctors at UCLA and the coroner can't be fooled anyway, or can they?!

Yet, a body or a dummy was needed to display the death show to the general public, I mean the whole live circus of transporting Michael Jackson's dead body with the helicopter from UCLA to the Coroner................freaky show if you ask me....
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 28, 2011, 09:25:39 PM
(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1203/ucla03650bodyguards.jpg)



.. and the mystery man to leave the ambulance
The bodyguard covering someone down the ambulance (?), but the sequence is cut in a timely manner.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 28, 2011, 09:31:39 PM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
The only problem I have with that thought Souza, is the reflections on the entrance doors...not the same. One clearly shows the trees in the background, but the other shows the top of the ambulance...what do you think??? God bless

No, that's not what I meant. I see Murray in the reflection, yet he's almost passed those doors. Seems strange that he is in the reflection instead of Alvarez.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 28, 2011, 09:33:34 PM
Paula you mean the mystery man was Michael?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on April 28, 2011, 09:43:12 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Is it me or is thereflection on the door at the left off? :?

(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12806)


Souza you are right, if you look at the above picture, on the left door you do not see the greenery reflection. I have noticed that greenery has been in mostly all the pictures
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on April 28, 2011, 09:58:31 PM
That reflection of Murray in the door on the left doesn't look tall enough for him. The legs look too short. And it does not explain why his reflection is in the door when he shouldn't be seen. Unless there is another shorter person who disguises himself as Murray from time to time. :?
At this stage of the hoax, I don't rule anything out. In fact I'm expecting the unexpected. This is Michael Jackson we are talking about here. Move over Chris Angel, David Blane, this is the greatest illusion ever to be pulled off.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 28, 2011, 10:09:34 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
The only problem I have with that thought Souza, is the reflections on the entrance doors...not the same. One clearly shows the trees in the background, but the other shows the top of the ambulance...what do you think??? God bless

No, that's not what I meant. I see Murray in the reflection, yet he's almost passed those doors. Seems strange that he is in the reflection instead of Alvarez.

Sorry for confusing you, but I meant if the ambulance was still in the same position, and just the camera changed angles, we would still see the reflection of the ambulance, not the trees....the only time you should see the trees is if the ambulance has backed out already...which it didn't at that stage...

And yes, I actually see the body on the stretcher on the reflection.......heres the shot...

And I too see a MYSTERY MAN jumping out of the ambulance and being covered by the bodyguard..I thought I was loosing it...thanks for confirming that. :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 28, 2011, 11:45:02 PM
Quote from: "mjj4ever777"
 LOVE your post It's her!! I don't comment too much on this thread, but I do read and study the contents daily, and I must say that I think that your post makes absolute sense. "WE", this forum, have a special part in this hoax, we may even be more important then we think ;) I wouldn't be surprised in the least if this hoax forum is actually brought up in the court case in some way. I mean, we are the ones who believe that Michael is alive, when the rest of the world believes that Michael is dead, so if we truly believe that Michael has hoaxed his death, and that this hoax is about to be "revealed", there is a good possibility, that the defense will actually use our information here, as evidence of "reasonable doubt" for Michael being dead, therefor Murray will not be found guilty, in the upcoming trial?  Is it possible that the whole hoax will be revealed during the trial?  I definitely feel like something is going on....Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud here. I'm still trying to put together a few more pieces, but It's her, I can totally relate to your post, so thanks for posting it friend!

TS...You certainly are a"mystery aren't you?
Sending everyone all the LOVE in the world!!! Keep the Faith and NEVER stop Believing!!!

Love you most Michael, Be safe, Happy and Healthy my friend, forever in my heart and always on my mind, May you always live in peace dear brother...miss you <3<3<3<3<3<3<3

Thank you, Mjj4ever777! It is so nice of you to say. :)

Reasonable doubt would be a gift, considering the jury which it appears we could end up with. :?  I just hope all this evidence cannot be used to prove collusion... MJ said, "No matter  :shock: WHAT happens..." it could get really rough, before it levels out!

MJ re-appearing alive can NOT be the resolution to this case. It must be resolved without the "Ace" no other such case would have.

Is is really important that the FACTS are presented without ambiguity. Or...IS it? Perhaps a little smoke and mirrors is just what is needed to generate reasonable doubt! We may be doing exactly this with so many theories which would "basically" work (on any jury), but conflict!! I can't wait to see what they do with this :!:   8-)  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 29, 2011, 12:31:47 AM
Now in this picture nothing fits in the reflection.

In the upper section, we see somewhat of a coroner van roof and not the ambulance - as if the vehicle was parked with the windshield directing towards the entrance (it should be the rear door at emergency entrance).

In the lower section we see a hub cap as if the reflecting vehicle was parked sidewards behind the men.

(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12808)

This means manipulated material again.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 12:33:05 AM
Quote from: "Grace"
Now in this picture nothing fits in the reflection.

In the upper section, we see somewhat of a coroner van roof and not the ambulance - as if the vehicle was parked with the windshield directing towards the entrance (it should be the rear door at emergency entrance).

In the lower section we see a hub cap as if the reflecting vehicle was parked sidewards behind the men.

(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12808)

I think it's because of the angle that glass door is oriented.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 29, 2011, 12:35:20 AM
If it were the angle, the top and the lower part should be modified the same way and not contradictory.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 12:38:04 AM
But what's that door supposed to reflect?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: mjfansince4 on April 29, 2011, 02:44:33 AM
i apologize if this has been mentioned, but it caught my eye:
[attachment=2:39wcptpk]2.jpg[/attachment:39wcptpk]
the arrow shows a reflection in the mirror part of the door. it seems that it is reflecting a white car, not the ambulance, since the back of the ambulance is red:
[attachment=1:39wcptpk]Michael-Jackson-ambulance-300x222.jpg[/attachment:39wcptpk]

now, the white car is interesting. it could be the coroner's car (where that infamous "fake" shot of michael jumping out was recorded:
[attachment=0:39wcptpk]ambulance.jpg[/attachment:39wcptpk]

another option is this car, another ambulance car:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/ih5ith.jpg)
what is interesting about this choice is it comes from a TMZ story where Michael's chauffeur ran into the ambulance causing the mirror to break. i just thought that since everything seems to be so intricately connected, why not this.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on April 29, 2011, 02:52:33 AM
Wow it is totally true that that left door reflection is wrong. It's a sliding door so the angle should be straight out from it, yet it shows Murray who is beside it and almost past. He is slightly shorter and the lettering on his back is slightly too far back. I agree it looks like we see part of the stretcher and then the white coroner van roof and wheel. So that must be photoshopped reflection in that door?

I agree the ambulance reflects red in the door frame and then in the shot missing the amb. the door reflects major green.
Here's google earth of Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Centre and a map showing the emergency entrance. I don't know if it shows that much greenery to reflect in the door.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/rrhosp_floor1-1.jpg)
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/UCLAgoogleearth.jpg)

A couple of other things I noticed are:
- the strange gray space between the legs of the navy shirt medic like the photoshoppers forgot to match that
- the security (with the striped gray tie) has got a strange large butt or there's something behind it that doesn't belong with the pic (maybe I'm see things).
- the ground beneath all their feet has a square grey shadow perhaps of the ambulance box shape but not really matching, yet the shadow fades to nothing as it goes to our left.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/ambo2.jpg)

I know there was no moving footage of this UCLA arrival scene, only sequencial still shots. With all these weird things going on, it makes you wonder if they aren't playing the game of, 'Can you spot all the things wrong with this picture', just like the famous amb pic with MJ.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 29, 2011, 06:36:30 AM
Ok...I've been researching more into it, instead of watching the Royal Wedding  :lol:  :lol: (I lied..the TV has been on the whole time..wish Dianna was there to see it.....damm paparazzi:(  :(  ) and I found the original pictures of UCLA emergency...It looks like the reflection of one of their own ambulances..)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TheMoonIsDancing on April 29, 2011, 10:00:52 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Is it me or is thereflection on the door at the left off? :?

(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12806)

Unless we are both cross eyed, I would say very much so! :thumbs up:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 11:21:13 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Please notice the finer details in the circled parts.  In the red circle, you have in both pictures not only the main plant—but also a few leaves on the ground at the left side of it.  In the green circle, you can almost count the number of leaves, and sometimes which way the leaves are facing, and they are the same in both pictures.  In the blue circle, you can see not only the left on straight up and the others bending right—but in the far left one you can see two protrusions about half way up, again the same in both pictures.  These are extremely fine details, almost impossible to be natural one year later; and would take the highest degree of skill to do this successfully on real plants—they would almost certainly have to be artificial plants.  All this trouble, for what purpose???

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben0-41.jpg)

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-40.jpg)

I just want to point out that they are not the same. The left branch is leaved all the way to the bottom of the stem in the bottom photo, and only leaved half way up in the top photo. The stems middle and right curve with significantly more bend in the bottom photo with less bend in the top photo.

Watersprouts (long, thin, straight branches that sprout from the interior of woody shrubs) absolutely grow similarly year after year. They grow towards the light source, which would be toward the street and away from the wall. The tallest watersprout would cause shading of any following watersprouts, causing shorter ones to grow more towards the street rather then straight up; that space is already taken. his is how plants grow. This is why each leaf/stem/branch seems to always be positioned slightly apart from the surrounding leaves/stems/branches and rarely overlap. Because the position of the plant and the sun remain consistent year after year, so would the growth. Watersprouts are the growth that gets trimmed annually when pruning shrubs to maintain the neat, tight appearance of the shrub/hedge.

So yes, the watersprouts would grow similarly year after year, and no, the two pics are not the same.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 11:29:26 AM
Photos can fool the eye, there are different angles of shooting so the postion of the plants can't be exactly the same in those 2 photos.
I think it's useless to analise them anymore.

Those are the same plants to me and to look for differences in plants will lead nowhere because the branches and the leaves move very easy because of the air moves around them.

I am sorry but to think they arranged the plants to look almost the same from one year to another is just too much for me to believe.

In those 2 photos not even the white pillar behind those plants doesn't look the same in the top of it because of the different angle and light, yet it is the same pillar.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 11:35:58 AM
Additionally, there's some funny business going on with TS.

Against my better judgment, I reviewed the ambulance footage on YouTube to check this out for myself. I'm hopelessly addicted, obviously. Sigh.

Anyway, here's 2 screenshots from this footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU) to show there's no goddamn watersprouts at all on this day. Not only that, there's no branch spilling over the curb as circled by TS either.

Look:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancenoplants2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancenoplants.jpg)

Answer that TS.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 11:37:28 AM
anyway, I think we developed an obsessin of looking after reflections and details in photos. We will be able to trust anything in the future? Because right now everything is fake and suspicious to us.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 11:40:13 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Please notice the finer details in the circled parts.  In the red circle, you have in both pictures not only the main plant—but also a few leaves on the ground at the left side of it.  In the green circle, you can almost count the number of leaves, and sometimes which way the leaves are facing, and they are the same in both pictures.  In the blue circle, you can see not only the left on straight up and the others bending right—but in the far left one you can see two protrusions about half way up, again the same in both pictures.  These are extremely fine details, almost impossible to be natural one year later; and would take the highest degree of skill to do this successfully on real plants—they would almost certainly have to be artificial plants.  All this trouble, for what purpose???

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben1-22.jpg)

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-41.jpg)

One more time, the plant in TS's red circle is not there:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancenoplants.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancenoplants2.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 11:41:17 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Additionally, there's some funny business going on with TS.

Against my better judgment, I reviewed the ambulance footage on YouTube to check this out for myself. I'm hopelessly addicted, obviously. Sigh.

Anyway, here's 2 screenshots from this footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU) to show there's no goddamn watersprouts at all on this day. Not only that, there's no branch spilling over the curb as circled by TS either.

Look:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancenoplants2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancenoplants.jpg)

Answer that TS.

Hmmm.....this time I can't argue.....no watersprouts (what are those?!)
Is that the same part of the gate? There must be an explanation.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 11:43:43 AM
Watersprouts are the plants in TS's blue circle. Neither blue circle plants nor red circle plants are present in the original ambulance footage.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 11:47:34 AM
Top left branch is missing on the tree too.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 11:48:40 AM
OK, now I am confused: why aren't the watersprouts there?

Is that the same side of the gate, the one with the watersprouts and the one without them?!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 29, 2011, 11:49:33 AM
Jesus, bec, it's true. They're not there. Only if the wind was blowing so strong that bent them down, but I doubt. They're deffinitely not there.

I'm curious about TS's answer to this.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 11:52:21 AM
Bec it is possible the watersprouts aren't visible in your pictures because the screenshots are unclear and the watersprouts are very thin so they don't show in the screenshots.

But what about the plant in the red circle?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: hesouttamylife on April 29, 2011, 12:01:59 PM
In that hollywood tv picture, though it is very blurry, it appears the leaves on the tree (by the lantern) are much higher up and not over the lantern as they appear in the clearer pictures.  Are  there any other pictures from them to compare?  On a lighter note, my eyes could be a little crossed.  Thank God for 20-20 vision :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 12:03:25 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "TS_comments"

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben1-22.jpg)

(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-41.jpg)



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancenoplants.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancenoplants2.jpg)

Can someone explain why the first two pictures are so clear and the last 2 ones are unclear?
Who knows how many footage of the ambulance backing out were recorded?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 29, 2011, 12:07:00 PM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Jesus, bec, it's true. They're not there. Only if the wind was blowing so strong that bent them down, but I doubt. They're deffinitely not there.

I'm curious about TS's answer to this.

I'm curious too.  Especially since TS made such a big deal about pointing out the leaves/plants and saying they were almost exactly the same.  

Great catch bec.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 29, 2011, 12:07:17 PM
I don't know either where did TS take those photos/print screens from. I wanted to point that out from the beginning.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 29, 2011, 12:09:09 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Bec it is possible the watersprouts aren't visible in your pictures because the screenshots are unclear and the watersprouts are very thin so they don't show in the screenshots.


No way. The video is not that bad to blurry those plants to become invisible.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 12:11:06 PM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Bec it is possible the watersprouts aren't visible in your pictures because the screenshots are unclear and the watersprouts are very thin so they don't show in the screenshots.


No way. The video is not that bad to blurry those plants to become invisible.

well I think this possibility exists but the plant in the red circle down there is not that thin so it must have been there in the hollywood screenshots.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 29, 2011, 12:14:37 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Kristina4love - do I understand it right? That Efix tells you the pic was taken at 12:08 on June 25th?

That was before the 911 call and way before the ambulance arrived.

I'm sorry everyone i made a mistake before it's not Efix metadata, it's Exif metadata :oops:. Sorry...
Yes Gina that is correct, according to Exif metadata the ambulance picture was taken on June 25th 2009, 12:08 pm, in LA. I've been checking a lot of my pictures and the Exif files are always correct, i don't know anything about photography details it gives, but the date and time is always correct. It's hard to believe, but ones you see it for yourself you will be shocked. Of course if you take ambulance picture from any other source then Exif won't show anything, so the picture should be directly from NPG.
So i stick to that picture was taken on 25th June, but a little bit earlier that day, before the official 911 call.

L.O.V.E to all!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 29, 2011, 12:15:57 PM
Is that video so blurry that you cannot see the plants? I don't know what to say
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 12:19:58 PM
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Kristina4love - do I understand it right? That Efix tells you the pic was taken at 12:08 on June 25th?

That was before the 911 call and way before the ambulance arrived.

I'm sorry everyone i made a mistake before it's not Efix metadata, it's Exif metadata :oops:. Sorry...
Yes Gina that is correct, according to Exif metadata the ambulance picture was taken on June 25th 2009, 12:08 pm, in LA. I've been checking a lot of my pictures and the Exif files are always correct, i don't know anything about photography details it gives, but the date and time is always correct. It's hard to believe, but ones you see it for yourself you will be shocked. Of course if you take ambulance picture from any other source then Exif won't show anything, so the picture should be directly from NPG.
So i stick to that picture was taken on 25th June, but a little bit earlier that day, before the official 911 call.

L.O.V.E to all!

well, probably Michael was posing for it like he posed years ago in the hyperbaric chamber....always trying to fool people, that lovely boy :evil:  !! So if the Efix returns the correct day and hour, what Ben meant with "the other day"?
And if Efix returns the correct day and hour, Michael is obvisouly alive and I can finally relax and go back to what's left of my life...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 12:22:02 PM
Another good question is where did TS get access to such clear video of that scene to make such a clear screenshot. I am unable to find any video other then the one on Youtube, and they are all the same quality.

Additionally, where is the video that shows such an angle as the one TS posted the screenshot of, and why didn't he link to it. If he didn't screenshot it, where did he find it on the web and why didn't he link to it. He links to everything else, why no link to his source this time?

Funny business is afoot.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 29, 2011, 12:24:10 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Another good question is where did TS get access to such clear video of that scene to make such a clear screenshot. I am unable to find any video other then the one on Youtube, and they are all the same quality.

Additionally, where is the video that shows such an angle as the one TS posted the screenshot of, and why didn't he link to it. If he didn't screenshot it, where did he find it on the web and why didn't he link to it. He links to everything else, why no link to his source this time?

Funny business is afoot.
A screen shot is taken from a hollywoodtv.com video, so it must have been public. It must be somewhere
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yulia on April 29, 2011, 12:24:11 PM
I don't understand this. TS will have to explain because he was the one who made us look too close at the leaves and plants. Why in both versions of the recording of the same minute the plants are visible in one and invisible in the other. The video with the poor quality, but also from Hollywood TV, is not in a SO poor quality as to make plants dissapear. They are not there

I don't know what to say about this whole thing.

I took the photo that TS posted, the one with the watermark, and I applied to it two kinds of Blur and the plants still are visible (even if hardly but they are visible)

Original:

(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/691/ben041.jpg) (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/ben041.jpg/)


Still blur:

(http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/6218/59124128.jpg) (http://img851.imageshack.us/i/59124128.jpg/)


Motion Blur:
(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7774/24442279.jpg) (http://img546.imageshack.us/i/24442279.jpg/)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 12:24:32 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Another good question is where did TS get access to such clear video of that scene to make such a clear screenshot. I am unable to find any video other then the one on Youtube, and they are all the same quality.

Additionally, where is the video that shows such an angle as the one TS posted the screenshot of, and why didn't he link to it. If he didn't screenshot it, where did he find it on the web and why didn't he link to it. He links to everything else, why no link to his source this time?

Funny business is afoot.

I am sure TS will clear everything for us.

I really want to know where he got those clear shots and from a different angle than the hollywood tv video.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 12:28:24 PM
Yulia you are right, they are still visible, even with the motion blur
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 29, 2011, 12:42:24 PM
Even if it was filmed in two days one after another (24 & 25) then it still doesn't explain why we apparently see no plant there. A plant doesn't grow from a day to another. Maybe only in months.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 12:44:36 PM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Even if it was filmed in two days one after another (24 & 25) then it still doesn't explain why we apparently see no plant there. A plant doesn't grow from a day to another. Maybe only in months.

No but those plants in the circles are exactly what a landscaper would remove when doing regular maintenance on the grounds.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 29, 2011, 12:48:10 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Here is the link for the videos, from which the still shots below are taken.  Some may scrutinize these videos and try to show significant differences; but many do the same thing with for example ambulance #71, when the only real difference is lighting and angles.

Ben's ambulance video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI

Fans at Carolwood video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2NQJMm3mi4

This is from 1:22 in Ben's video.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben1-22.jpg)

This is from 0:41 in the fans video.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-41.jpg)

This is from 0:41 in Ben's video.  Notice that you have one on the left going about straight up, and then four or five to the right of that, bending over to the right.  You can see the same in the other picture.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Ben0-41.jpg)

This is from 0:40 in the fans video.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/Fans0-40.jpg)

Ok here i'm going to defend TS, he did give us all the links of the videos he took the pictures from. :D  
And also on the video that Bec provided http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU) if watch it between 1:10 and 1:14 you can see all the same plants that TS showed us, the ones that are next to the wall and very thin are hard to see. The video quality is very poor, but you can still see all the plants which were pointed out by TS. :D

L.O.V.E
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 12:53:35 PM
You're right Kristina, he did link it, I apologize.

Ok, so Ben's video is different then the one sold to Hollywood TV. I thought there was only one videographer on the ground? Now it seems there were 2.

Ps. But I'm not seeing the plants in the video I linked, which is why I made the screenshots. I can't quite figure this out except that I don't see them...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 29, 2011, 12:59:29 PM
Quote from: "bec"
You're right Kristina, he did link it, I apologize.

Ok, so Ben's video is different then the one sold to Hollywood TV. I thought there was only one videographer on the ground? Now it seems there were 2.

Ps. But I'm not seeing the plants in the video I linked, which is why I made the screenshots. I can't quite figure this out except that I don't see them...

Wow i just noticed.  :shock: Look at the videos that TS linked to, THEY ARE SOOOOOOOO HOLLYWOOD. Look at the quality of the video, it's amazing. The camera that Ben has is not capable of shooting this kind of video. I think we see the ACTUALLY THRILLER II SCENES!!!! :mrgreen:  
Or i'm crazy... :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 29, 2011, 01:02:21 PM
I'm sorry, but i don't know how to do the screenshots of the video. Please look at the right part of the video between 1:10 and 1:14 or even pause the video during these seconds and you will be able to see them. :)

L.O.V.E
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 01:03:42 PM
Well I'm off to work. I'm sure someone will come along and clear this all up as surely my eyes deceive me and there is some clear explanation that I am missing.

Every investigation on this death hoax comes to a dead end and it is likely that this will be no different given time and enough eyes working on it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 29, 2011, 01:07:05 PM
I made 2 gifs. One from the good quality video and one from the other. I don't know what to say about those plants, if the video can blurr them off like that

(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/655858-1.gif)

(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/2-1.gif)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 01:34:44 PM
Well, it looks like we couldn't see them because of the blurred video.

Well I'm just going to say again that analising pictures and reflections is very tricky, as the angles and the light make a lot of difference.

The old - fashioned common sense is still useful
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 29, 2011, 02:05:00 PM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
I made 2 gifs. One from the good quality video and one from the other. I don't know what to say about those plants, if the video can blurr them off like that

(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/655858-1.gif)

(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/2-1.gif)

Anna thank you! :D  Well on the first gif there is much more light (sun in the afternoon) that's why it's so hard to see those thin plants next to the wall, plus the video quality is very bad. On the second gif it was not that sunny, kinda cloudy actually, and video is much clearer that's why it's easy to see every little leaf. But in actual video of the first gif i can see plants next to the wall a little bit clearer.

L.O.V.E to all! :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Sarahli on April 29, 2011, 02:09:38 PM
Look at the white flowers as an example to see how much difference there is between the two videos.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 29, 2011, 02:23:01 PM
Guys guys, chill out. I have the answer! They cut those plants and put them in the ambulance. Both cases solved! :lol:

I don't see the sprouts on the Hollywood TV video either, but I am keeping away from this topic, because I can let plants die in only a few hours... It's absolutely weird, that's for sure.

What is also strange is that the Hollywood TV video is so blurry, while clearly the video was shot in HD. And in Ben's version it's also clearly altered, there is a dark filter over it. Why did Hollywood TV get such a blurry copy?

What I am also wondering is why they have put those safety cones there, as if the driver of the ambulance would not see the fire truck there. You know, there is so much possible these days in movieworld, what if those pins were there as markers to mark the curve of the ambulance? Could the ambulance be added to an empty video of the scene? I think that should be possible, but I am just throwing things out here. I am about to loose my sanity, so maybe you shouldn't take everything I say too serious. As for the tour bus people being in on it or not: we had a lot of people attending the obviously staged funeral, so it's clear that more people are in than when Elvis 'died'. We already expect for 2 years that some people are being 'recycled'.

Well, that's it for today, I'm out of options. How do you like the new forum TS? I added the ambulance button especially for you :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 02:27:08 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
I am about to loose my sanity, so maybe you shouldn't take everything I say too serious.  


OK, we won't :twisted: :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Sarahli on April 29, 2011, 02:27:44 PM
LOL Souza I guess anything is possible at this point. Even what you said I see it as a possibility now  :lol:  :?  good job for the new layout you should have added leaf patterns everywhere  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 29, 2011, 02:34:38 PM
Manipulation time on LOL:
We discussed it on MJHD and later on mjkit that there were 2 takes of the videos.
The plants don't match (well, yes, they don't), the cones don't match and the shadows don't match either.
The last two points we did know since 2009.

[attachment=1:2831uzml]Carolwood plants_1.jpg[/attachment:2831uzml]

[attachment=0:2831uzml]Carolwood plants_2.jpg[/attachment:2831uzml]

Manipulation time off:
TS, why don't you give the structure for the points we need to fill in for your purpose.
It would make it a lot easier for the newbies to follow you.
 ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 29, 2011, 02:37:24 PM
Quote from: "Sarahli"
you should have added leaf patterns everywhere  :lol:

Darn, I knew I forgot something! :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on April 29, 2011, 02:42:02 PM
Grace, these are 2 different angles. The first one is a front view of the shadows, and the second is a perspective. In the first one the shadows will deffinitely appear (from this angle of the camera) smaller. And from the other- bigger. But in the first photo it looks kinda too small though. I mean the shadows cover a larger portion in the second. Way larger, even considering and calculating the angle. It's possible only if there's a different time of the day in both photos.

EDIT

I'm looking at the video. It could be just the angle that makes those shadows smaller. I don't know.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yulia on April 29, 2011, 02:51:46 PM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
I made 2 gifs. One from the good quality video and one from the other. I don't know what to say about those plants, if the video can blurr them off like that

(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/655858-1.gif)

(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/2-1.gif)


listen.. I just noticed something. Why in first video the sun seems up like vertical and giving light straight through the trees and in the second it seems like the sun is somewhere like before or way after 12 pm? Why? because although I see SUN in the second video/gif, it really looks like it is not in the same place in the sky  as in the first video/gif(as we know that at 12 pm the sun is up,vertically, in the sky and they it starts to go on one side). In the second video/gif it looks like it is filmed at another hour. And my impression is that it's before 12 pm. Were these two videos supposed to be filmed exactly at the same time?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 29, 2011, 02:55:10 PM
(http://www.saak.nl/battlefield%20tour/2008%20england/Bletchley%20Park/enigma.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Sarahli on April 29, 2011, 02:59:19 PM
Oh boy  :lol:  Souza!

Yulia it seems like it's not the same hour in the first video it's the ambulance that gets out, in the second it's a car so it shows that it has been taken at two different moments in the day.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yulia on April 29, 2011, 03:01:13 PM
Does anyone know if these are supposed to be taken during the same half hour at least?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 29, 2011, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: "Yulia"
Does anyone know if these are supposed to be taken during the same half hour at least?
The black car comes out right after the ambulance, can't be too much time in between, maybe a few minutes.
This is what I think.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Daniela on April 29, 2011, 03:11:47 PM
Hi everyone, I have a question about the time listed in Exif metadata (12:08). Isn't it possible that the time is wrong because the digital camera had the wrong time setting? Perhaps it was not adjusted for daylight savings time, which would put it 1 hour behind the actual time?

PEACE
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yulia on April 29, 2011, 03:13:16 PM
maybe I'm wrong but it really seems that in the second gif it's a different hour than in the first. I am not talking about clouds in the sky. it seems a different hour... I don't know what to think anymore, my eyes hurt like hell.

I hope TS will come up to say his point regarding the two videos: one in which we see a plant and the other where we see no plant - and I am sure of it. And also why it seems that the two videos are filmed at different hours
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 29, 2011, 03:25:33 PM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Grace, these are 2 different angles. The first one is a front view of the shadows, and the second is a perspective. In the first one the shadows will deffinitely appear (from this angle of the camera) smaller. And from the other- bigger. But in the first photo it looks kinda too small though. I mean the shadows cover a larger portion in the second. Way larger, even considering and calculating the angle. It's possible only if there's a different time of the day in both photos.

EDIT

I'm looking at the video. It could be just the angle that makes those shadows smaller. I don't know.

Anna, I would be happy if it were only the angle.

Take the gap in the middle of the road and the specific triangular crack where the ambu backs up to  -  one time in the sun, one time in the shadow. Not only leaves moving in the wind are causing this. It is definitely later this day.
(Or the other day.) LOL


Waiting for the syringe to be shown in the trial and being handed over to Doc Murray to identify it whether he knew it or not. Then watch for the fingerprint proofs again and how they're gonna fight over the fact that Doc Murray's fingerprints are to be found on that syringe. Take a step back then, remember the other trial, the adult magazines and the fingerprints on them and hello, world, our head becomes a lead-free bulb on its own.  :lol:


Oh and the house with the growing leaves "rear gate" of the OV Guide video could be the backside entry to Gregory Peck's castle on Delfern / Baroda Dr / N Carolwood - thanks for finding the gate, 2good! That would be an address, not that busy, loud N Carolwood 100.

[attachment=0:37ith7uw]rear gate Delfern_Baroda Dr_2.jpg[/attachment:37ith7uw]

Gregory is a member of the fine "Hitchcock" artist team.
Quote
He visited Michael Jackson on the set of filming the "Smooth Criminal" segment for Moonwalker (1988). He was a close friend of Michael Jackson for the last 25 years of his life, and often went horse riding with the singer at his Neverland Ranch.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000060/bio
Gregory is a very interesting artist.
He starred in "The Omen" and "On the Beach" - the latter being a movie about the subject of Fukushima, just being produced 52 years earlier.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 29, 2011, 03:48:43 PM
Hahaha, I stand corrected one more time...

The "leaves" gates belong to the property of Gary L. Wilson.
Quote
Gary L. Wilson has a history—as a principal, executive, and director—of leading major companies through strategic transitions and creating substantial economic value for both private investors and public shareholders. He is a strong advocate of improved corporate governance in public companies.
Wilson led the buyout of Northwest Airlines in 1989. In 1997, as Chairman of Northwest, he acquired control of Continental Airlines. Prior to the 9/11 disaster, Northwest’s market capitalization reached $6 billion, providing investors with handsome returns on their $300 million initial equity investment. He served as Chairman or co-Chairman of Northwest from 1991 to 2007.
http://wikimapia.org/17108843/Gary-L-Wilson-Residence

Gregory's residence was in the north at Carolwood and the "castle" was a former Disney residence.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 29, 2011, 04:04:28 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
As far as filming ambulance #71 at Carolwood in advance of 6-25-09, I think you agree that anytime in 2009 before 6-25 would be far more risky than on 6-25.  This is why you put it back into 2008; but roughly one year earlier would make a noticeable difference in things growing around the entrance.  However, the pictures below (see the colored circles) show a few of many things that are not different between the ambulance day, and when fans were there just a few days after 6-25-09.  A few days would not make much if any noticeable differences in the plants; but one year difference would surely be noticeably different.

Ylia here is the answer to your question :) Videos were taken on two different days. The first one from 6/25/09 supposedly and the fan video was taken the next day or a couple of days after June 25th.

L.O.V.E to all! :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 29, 2011, 04:33:53 PM
Quote from: "Daniela"
Hi everyone, I have a question about the time listed in Exif metadata (12:08). Isn't it possible that the time is wrong because the digital camera had the wrong time setting? Perhaps it was not adjusted for daylight savings time, which would put it 1 hour behind the actual time?

PEACE

Exif metadata lists time and date set on the photo camera and if time was not correct on the camera then the Exif data will not be correct as well, but i think that paparazzi are not that sloppy to have the wrong time set on their cameras  ;)
Here is a very interesting page of a book called "Photoshop elements 3 for dummies", i haven't read the whole book, but this page is very interesting.
http://books.google.ru/books?id=e9ykS8M ... i=7yi7TbWM (http://books.google.ru/books?id=e9ykS8ML3LYC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=Does+Exif+metadata+shows+time+set+on+camera?&source=bl&ots=EofhX2F5Zf&sig=0M6aeH6Tjm-4B2YQ8jx4Wu64270&hl=ru&ei=7yi7TbWM)

Quote
Included in Exif data are the date and time the photo was taken. This information is drawn from the date and time setting on your camera. But if your camera's date set incorrectly - maybe the battery ran down, or maybe you never set it to begin with (shame on you!) - the wrong date and time will get embedded into the photo's Exif metadata.

For professional photographers Exif data is very important, because it carries ALL the information about picture. They can then check what settings are good for photos and which are not. The sunlight plays a huge role in pictures, so a photographer should have a correct time set on camera to see how natural light effects the picture. I hope you understand what i mean :? And of course the Exif data can be modified by the holder of original picture, but not all of it. He can change time and date (i've tried it with my pictures), but if Ben did change timing to 12:08, what for? I'm sure only few crazy people like i, will go and check Exif data.

Also this was the date on Exif data
Quote
Date:   June 25, 2009 12:08:08PM (timezone is 7 hours behind GMT)

It shows the time zone as well, 7 hours behind GMT and as we know UTC time zone is 7 hours behind GMT :D http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137 (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137)

So if the time was not correct, then it would not show the correct time zone.

L.O.V.E to all!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 29, 2011, 04:55:30 PM
I forgot to add about the DST :oops:
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/t ... syear=2000 (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/timezone.html?n=137&syear=2000)
so in 2009 the DST started on Sunday, 8 March 2009 01:59:59, it changed from    02:00:00 → 03:00:00   +1h. And it ended on Sunday, 1 November 2009 01:59:59   02:00:00 → 01:00:00 -1h. So on June 25 it was UTC/GMT -7 hours. I really doubt that Ben, professional photographer, forgot to change the time settings on his camera for 4 months  :lol: And if he DID INDEED forgot to change the time, then the Exif data would show timezone is 8 hours behind GMT.

My head hurts so bad from all these numbers. Michael it's all for you!!! Please don't feel bad for my head  :lol:, i know how sad you can get if you see people are not feeling well (physically) because of you. I'm actually getting smarter, so my brain is trying to deal with it.  :mrgreen: I LOVE YOU SOOOO MUCH!  :D
    
L.O.V.E to all!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on April 29, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
Quote
Kristina4LOVE wrote:



Daniela wrote:Hi everyone, I have a question about the time listed in Exif metadata (12:08). Isn't it possible that the time is wrong because the digital camera had the wrong time setting? Perhaps it was not adjusted for daylight savings time, which would put it 1 hour behind the actual time?

PEACE


Exif metadata lists time and date set on the photo camera and if time was not correct on the camera then the Exif data will not be correct as well, but i think that paparazzi are not that sloppy to have the wrong time set on their cameras
Here is a very interesting page of a book called "Photoshop elements 3 for dummies", i haven't read the whole book, but this page is very interesting.
http://books.google.ru/books?id=e9ykS8M (http://books.google.ru/books?id=e9ykS8M) ... i=7yi7TbWM



Included in Exif data are the date and time the photo was taken. This information is drawn from the date and time setting on your camera. But if your camera's date set incorrectly - maybe the battery ran down, or maybe you never set it to begin with (shame on you!) - the wrong date and time will get embedded into the photo's Exif metadata.


For professional photographers Exif data is very important, because it carries ALL the information about picture. They can then check what settings are good for photos and which are not. The sunlight plays a huge role in pictures, so a photographer should have a correct time set on camera to see how natural light effects the picture. I hope you understand what i mean And of course the Exif data can be modified by the holder of original picture, but not all of it. He can change time and date (i've tried it with my pictures), but if Ben did change timing to 12:08, what for? I'm sure only few crazy people like i, will go and check Exif data.

Also this was the date on Exif data

Date: June 25, 2009 12:08:08PM (timezone is 7 hours behind GMT)


It shows the time zone as well, 7 hours behind GMT and as we know UTC time zone is 7 hours behind GMT http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137 (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=137)

So if the time was not correct, then it would not show the correct time zone.

(http://smilies-gifs.com/ok/19ok.gif)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 29, 2011, 08:57:19 PM
As you guys around the world sleep, I in Australia have just woken up...

I will just post some new pictures I spent all last night finding..(yes, it has become a terrible obsession  :twisted: )

Some more inconsistencies with the ambulance arriving and just when it did back out and park somewhere else.

The paramedics would have had to move the ambulance, to allow other emergencies to come through, but they themselves would have stayed at the hospital for a while to do the paperwork and hand over..  

Just how many paramedics where in that ambulance??  And Murray was in there too??  Anyhow, look a these photos and spot the differences.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 29, 2011, 09:20:01 PM
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
So picture was taken on June 25, 2009 12:08:08PM (timezone is 7 hours behind GMT)
(1 year, 10 months, 2 days, 11 hours, 27 minutes, 28 seconds ago) Here is a problem with that timing: the timing and date can be easily corrected by the holder of original picture. So Ben or Chris could easily change the time and date, but what for? They could've changed it for the better timing when it was actually supposed to be taken. Not 18 minutes before ambulance even arrived to the house. To make a clue for people?

If the information you uncovered is correct then it is very weird that they would want the ambulance photo info to show it was taken minutes before 911 was even called.  We know the ambulance photo is staged - 99.9% sure anyways  :lol: - and it would've had to be taken more in advance - the infamous "other day".  Why only not just make it for the approximate time it was allegedly to have been taken?  Why 12:08:08?  Those numbers together equal 19 and then if you add June 25, 2009 which is 24 you get 43 which could then equal 7.  Or 12:08:08 is a date - December 8, 2008.  Actually Dec 8th was the day John Lennon was shot and killed in 1980.   :cry:  

Thanks for your research Kristina, my mind continues to go in circles but I really love these threads because they makes me THINK.  Both productively and counter-productively.  Which can be exhausting.  :lol:

And good morning 2good2btrue!  My bedtime is just a few hours away.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 10:23:55 PM
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12816)

(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12817)

Question posed to those who say the watersprouts were blurred out on the HT version. There's a branch missing off the tree too. Did bad video quality blur that off as well? I doubt that.

I doubt it but I don't know what it means. The plant growth would have to be removed before the HT take (other day) and after Ben's take (that day?)... which makes no sense. That would mean Ben's video came first, with the messy foliage... then the grounds were cleaned up... (?) and then the HT version was filmed... ?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Andrea on April 29, 2011, 10:34:45 PM
Is it possible that the footage was tampered with?  Like the plant growth either edited out or uhh..planted in?  Or there was footage taken the "other day" and then re-enacted June 25th...?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 29, 2011, 10:50:49 PM
Quote from: "bec"
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12816)

(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12817)

Question posed to those who say the watersprouts were blurred out on the HT version. There's a branch missing off the tree too. Did bad video quality blur that off as well? I doubt that.

I doubt it but I don't know what it means. The plant growth would have to be removed before the HT take (other day) and after Ben's take (that day?)... which makes no sense. That would mean Ben's video came first, with the messy foliage... then the grounds were cleaned up... (?) and then the HT version was filmed... ?

I keep thinking TS is being cheeky, and really is drawing our attention to soemthing else...he wants us to look for another clue, based on the different images. Maybe its about one decorative light on, and the other not working..

I'm sticking to the theory that,
It was all taken that day....but because Ben shows us NO evidence of an ambulance arriving, then I presume it had arrived from the other entrance on Delfern Dve, and only made its exit for the SHOW.  Meanwhile a staged photo was taken inside the residence, and has been altered via photoshop effects to make it look like it was taken outside.
 He has combined his unsucessful attempt picture, and overlapped it with the staged one inside..
I still believe the other day, was simply that Ben was following the ambulance and the SUV's....maybe that was filmed the other day...maybe we could compare the shadows on the cars on the way to UCLA and prove it was taken another day.  

"Michael was always going to the hospital"... Because ben's video does not show any evidence of the ambulance he was following had #71 on it, it could have been any other time.. ;)  ;)

The arrival at Emergency could have been staged, due to the inconsistencies with the doors...both of the relections, and the ambulance doors changing colour...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 11:09:12 PM
Question posed to those who say the watersprouts were blurred out on the HT version. There's a branch missing off the tree too. Did bad video quality blur that off as well? I doubt that.

I doubt it but I don't know what it means. The plant growth would have to be removed before the HT take (other day) and after Ben's take (that day?)... which makes no sense. That would mean Ben's video came first, with the messy foliage... then the grounds were cleaned up... (?) and then the HT version was filmed... ?[/quote]

Yeah it's not possible. The plants were there on 6/27/09 in the fan video. They would have to have been added to the landscape and as they look messy, that really doesn't make any sense. If the HT version had been taken in 2008, before a routine cleanup, where did the extra branch on the tree come from in Ben's video?

I don't understand it but it doesn't really mean anything I guess. Must be angles and lighting.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 29, 2011, 11:09:56 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Question posed to those who say the watersprouts were blurred out on the HT version. There's a branch missing off the tree too. Did bad video quality blur that off as well? I doubt that.

I doubt it but I don't know what it means. The plant growth would have to be removed before the HT take (other day) and after Ben's take (that day?)... which makes no sense. That would mean Ben's video came first, with the messy foliage... then the grounds were cleaned up... (?) and then the HT version was filmed... ?

Yeah it's not possible. The plants were there on 6/27/09 in the fan video. They would have to have been added to the landscape and as they look messy, that really doesn't make any sense. If the HT version had been taken in 2008, after a routine cleanup, did they add a branch to the tree in 2009 for Ben's video? Not likely.

I don't understand it but it doesn't really mean anything I guess. Must be angles and lighting.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: melody on April 29, 2011, 11:59:52 PM
Anna, you made a .gif of the wrong video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2NQJMm3mi4
[attachment=2:ajo65cnk]jul3rd.png[/attachment:ajo65cnk]

If you scroll down to the video's description, you'll see they've written when this footage was taken (July 3rd) & when they uploaded it (July 4th).

Bec's link, which as far as I can tell is the video that most tabloids and bloggers have linked too as well, is the one you should be comparing SamProdTV's footage to. Souza seems to be the first one to have linked to this video (here: viewtopic.php?p=324934#p324934 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=324934#p324934)) like 10 days ago. Does anyone (or you Souza) know where the original footage is from?  

Oddly, "SamProdTV" also uploaded a video about Christian Audigier on the same day he uploaded the Evenstad footage (September 23, 2010), but they don't provide a source. Aside from the "SAMProd.us", there's no other watermark (like the hollywood.tv or ABCnews videos).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxSjeIMBEYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxSjeIMBEYU)
[attachment=1:ajo65cnk]sep23rd.png[/attachment:ajo65cnk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI)
[attachment=0:ajo65cnk]sep23rdEvenstad.png[/attachment:ajo65cnk]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 30, 2011, 12:45:22 AM
Quote from: "Andrea"
Quote from: "Kristina4LOVE"
So picture was taken on June 25, 2009 12:08:08PM (timezone is 7 hours behind GMT)
(1 year, 10 months, 2 days, 11 hours, 27 minutes, 28 seconds ago) Here is a problem with that timing: the timing and date can be easily corrected by the holder of original picture. So Ben or Chris could easily change the time and date, but what for? They could've changed it for the better timing when it was actually supposed to be taken. Not 18 minutes before ambulance even arrived to the house. To make a clue for people?

If the information you uncovered is correct then it is very weird that they would want the ambulance photo info to show it was taken minutes before 911 was even called.  We know the ambulance photo is staged - 99.9% sure anyways  :lol: - and it would've had to be taken more in advance - the infamous "other day".  Why only not just make it for the approximate time it was allegedly to have been taken?  Why 12:08:08?  Those numbers together equal 19 and then if you add June 25, 2009 which is 24 you get 43 which could then equal 7.  Or 12:08:08 is a date - December 8, 2008.  Actually Dec 8th was the day John Lennon was shot and killed in 1980.   :cry:  

Thanks for your research Kristina, my mind continues to go in circles but I really love these threads because they makes me THINK.  Both productively and counter-productively.  Which can be exhausting.  :lol:

And good morning 2good2btrue!  My bedtime is just a few hours away.

Now I understand why, December 8 is my birthday!! I was related to the hoax and didn't even know about it  :lol: ....

God please help me not to lose my sanity completely
But I can't explain why John Lennon was killed on my birtday...this is sad...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 30, 2011, 12:53:17 AM
Bec look at this gif, the plant down there in the curb IS THERE, just take a good look.............it's the angle that fools the eye

It's right there at the beggining, in a moment when you almost can't see the ambulance and the image moves to the right
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/655858-1.gif)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 30, 2011, 09:51:59 AM
The leave and bushes match in this video as well......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2NQJMm3 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2NQJMm3mi4&feature=related)
[youtube:3onnbewe]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2NQJMm3mi4&feature=related[/youtube:3onnbewe]
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 30, 2011, 10:50:49 AM
Here's a relevant question: How in the world did little ol' Ben have an HD camera on that day? Those things are quite expensive. Remember, there was a big to-do made over the fact that they had 2 HD cameras for filming of TII-very expensive equipment. So what gives?

And if Ben had an HD camera capturing all the action... why was a crappy, pixilated quality version sold to Hollywood Tonight?  Why was the HD version kept under wraps and not shown until many months after the event?

So many things filmed in HD during the course of this hoax that seem very strange to chose such high quality expensive film quality... the burial is one example. That still makes no sense. To film the whole thing in HD... and then never show the tape to anyone. Weirdness.

(Ps. @TS: I should know better then to research anymore, it always turns into a dead end [but I'm addicted]. I guess I just had to prove it to myself one more time. So ok, I give up now for real [but I'm a junkie]. You retain the upper hand, I concede and will keep watching [but I just can't get enough]. I have had a feeling that's the lesson we are supposed to learn. I'm a slow study.)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 30, 2011, 11:07:03 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Bec look at this gif, the plant down there in the curb IS THERE, just take a good look.............it's the angle that fools the eye

It's right there at the beggining, in a moment when you almost can't see the ambulance and the image moves to the right
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/655858-1.gif)

Yes but they don't all match, the part of the bush spilling over the curb doesn't seem to lay directly on the pavement like it does in the other videos, and the watersprouts are still inexplicably absent as is the lowest branch on the tree.

But again, it makes no logical sense at all what I see.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: finfin on April 30, 2011, 11:24:57 AM
Sorry to change the subject from bushes and plants that TS wants us to look at, but here is the link to Lou Ferrigno interview talking about stories he has heard  of Michael putting a mannequin of himself in an ambulance to fool paparazzi. This corroborates what Ben said about Michael always going to the hospital. To my mind this is another suggested evidence to the other dd- day.
http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx (http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx) ... 81ec29198f
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: EarthAngel77 on April 30, 2011, 11:44:40 AM
I know nobody is going to take this post seriously or read this

But does anybody believe that maybe Mike could have taken the Photos himself??

I mean he ahs to know about camera angles and all that.   45 plus years of being in front of one and wanting to direct
He could have posed as a paparazzi and took the pics himself .  Just a thought
 :?:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: finfin on April 30, 2011, 12:17:34 PM
Quote from: "finfin"
Sorry to change the subject from bushes and plants that TS wants us to look at, but here is the link to Lou Ferrigno interview talking about stories he has heard  of Michael putting a mannequin of himself in an ambulance to fool paparazzi. This corroborates what Ben said about Michael always going to the hospital. To my mind this is another suggested evidence to the other dd- day.
http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx (http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx) ... 81ec29198f
Sorry, here is the link again
http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx ... 81ec29198f (http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx?id=78f756b6-295c-48fb-8ef0-2681ec29198f)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: finfin on April 30, 2011, 12:24:21 PM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
As you guys around the world sleep, I in Australia have just woken up...

I will just post some new pictures I spent all last night finding..(yes, it has become a terrible obsession  :twisted: )

Some more inconsistencies with the ambulance arriving and just when it did back out and park somewhere else.

The paramedics would have had to move the ambulance, to allow other emergencies to come through, but they themselves would have stayed at the hospital for a while to do the paperwork and hand over..  

Just how many paramedics where in that ambulance??  And Murray was in there too??  Anyhow, look a these photos and spot the differences.
Thank you very much  @2good2btrue for taking the time to find these pics. Please can I ask you what you see that are the inconsistencies, I don't want to be lazy, but today I am feeling a bit numb brained and need some help?  :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 30, 2011, 12:33:45 PM
Quote from: "EarthAngel77"
I know nobody is going to take this post seriously or read this

But does anybody believe that maybe Mike could have taken the Photos himself??

I mean he ahs to know about camera angles and all that.   45 plus years of being in front of one and wanting to direct
He could have posed as a paparazzi and took the pics himself .  Just a thought
 :?:
might be something to consider . idk but you are right you probably won't get much response and i would be clueless as to where to begin to look myself  :oops:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Grace on April 30, 2011, 01:00:24 PM
Quote from: "EarthAngel77"
I know nobody is going to take this post seriously or read this

But does anybody believe that maybe Mike could have taken the Photos himself??

I mean he ahs to know about camera angles and all that.   45 plus years of being in front of one and wanting to direct
He could have posed as a paparazzi and took the pics himself .  Just a thought
 :?:

LOL
That's what I thought all the way down to today.
Last doubt melted when I watched the video on Westwood Plaza: the dark Escalade following the ambu.
Who drives dark Escalades? Was a dark Escalade parked in front of NPG headquarter? Was a dark blue SUV parked at Carolwood (remember the one I said was white in the back? was it the one that hit the ambulance mirror so they had to redo the car finish?).

And if so - Michael took the video camera on his own - I wish he had the best time of his life.
Documenting his own death parade - what a show. Puts a HUGE smile on my face.

 ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on April 30, 2011, 01:46:49 PM
Quote from: "EarthAngel77"
I know nobody is going to take this post seriously or read this

But does anybody believe that maybe Mike could have taken the Photos himself??

I mean he ahs to know about camera angles and all that.   45 plus years of being in front of one and wanting to direct
He could have posed as a paparazzi and took the pics himself .  Just a thought
 :?:
Hi EarthAngel77,

Hey, don't sell yourself short!  This is NOT just a thought, it is genius! :D  I am reading and taking this seriously. You could be right on!  

I knew it--- always thought MJ was outside somewhere, but I was thinking a "Hitchcockian walk-on"  :roll: , NOT FILMING the shot!!!  :shock:

We have been overthinking things, because we know we are dealing with GENIUS! We poo-poohed thoughts that he would be there, in the open, on the scene, because he is supposed to be in hiding. Well,  :roll:  :x he's DUPED us again, kids!  HOW does THIS man hide, hmmmm??? :?

IN PLAIN SIGHT :!:  :P  :P

It never made sense to me that pro-active, hands on MJ would be content to play the lying down dummy in the ambulance, when he could be riding the bull (in DISGUISE!!) outside it! This  :o new development  :idea: (true or not, yet) is WAAAAY cool to consider! Thanks for posting this!  :D

Wow...it IS HIS movie, after all, the Rascal. 8-)


 :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on April 30, 2011, 02:00:01 PM
Quote from: "finfin"
Quote from: "finfin"
Sorry to change the subject from bushes and plants that TS wants us to look at, but here is the link to Lou Ferrigno interview talking about stories he has heard  of Michael putting a mannequin of himself in an ambulance to fool paparazzi. This corroborates what Ben said about Michael always going to the hospital. To my mind this is another suggested evidence to the other dd- day.
http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx (http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx) ... 81ec29198f
Sorry, here is the link again
http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx ... 81ec29198f (http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx?id=78f756b6-295c-48fb-8ef0-2681ec29198f)

This is a great video, aw Lou is so nice, he says such wonderful things about Michael  :D.  :lol: Can't stop laughing though that Michael was working out in black tuxedo, just brilliant  :lol: Agent M  8-)
Lou you are right, it is indeed another prank from Michael, and you will see him soon :D
Thank you for this video finfin! :D So Michael was using mannequins, which looked like him, to get the attention of paparazzi by putting them in ambulance, very interesting. Here comes the BUT, if paparazzi's were fooled by mannequin why we never saw the pictures of the ambulance with mannequin inside. I think paparazzi would love to make this big story how Michael Jackson is being taken to the hospital. Why we never herd of that before? or am i missing something? :?

L.O.V.E to all!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on April 30, 2011, 03:46:29 PM
Ms. Katherine depresses me all the time.....
I just saw that recent interview and she says her son is gone forever and Murray should pay and she was very upset.
I don't think it is possible she doesn't know about the hoax.
Maybe Michael is dead because I can't understand how comes Ms. Katherine speakes like that
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on April 30, 2011, 03:59:18 PM
I don't understand Katherine either. She doesn't make be doubt about the hoax.  But when i hear her i always get this feeling that the plan does not include a comeback.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on April 30, 2011, 06:02:21 PM
"The noblest art is that of making others happy."
— P.T. Barnum

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2011/04/29/0429-pig-mj-bn.jpg)

"I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right."
— P.T. Barnum

(http://www.platformnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/distraction1.jpg)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on April 30, 2011, 06:10:55 PM
TMZ's picture with Michael next to a pig is disturbing.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 30, 2011, 07:31:17 PM
You're just a swine baby, all down the line daddy, you hate your kind baby, you're such a liar!

Katherine is being a good actress because her son asked her to do so for him. Duh. Stay with me people. Hoax on!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on April 30, 2011, 07:38:48 PM
Quote from: "bec"
You're just a swine baby, all down the line daddy, you hate your kind baby, you're such a liar!

Katherine is being a good actress because her son asked her to do so for him. Duh. Stay with me people. Hoax on!

Ha, good catch! Line from Morphine, how appropriate...
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on April 30, 2011, 08:45:09 PM
Quote from: "finfin"
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
As you guys around the world sleep, I in Australia have just woken up...

I will just post some new pictures I spent all last night finding..(yes, it has become a terrible obsession  :twisted: )

Some more inconsistencies with the ambulance arriving and just when it did back out and park somewhere else.

The paramedics would have had to move the ambulance, to allow other emergencies to come through, but they themselves would have stayed at the hospital for a while to do the paperwork and hand over..  

Just how many paramedics where in that ambulance??  And Murray was in there too??  Anyhow, look a these photos and spot the differences.
Thank you very much  @2good2btrue for taking the time to find these pics. Please can I ask you what you see that are the inconsistencies, I don't want to be lazy, but today I am feeling a bit numb brained and need some help?  :D

The emergency entrance door has a metal bar on the left side, but it isn't there on the "Famous Picture".

Also, the corridor is jam packed with equipement and storage stuff...but not visible on that fateful day.  And an original picture just shows the ambulance #71 at the emergency entrance, but the another one (25/6/09), shows lots of cars and other ambulances...... ;)  ;) and police cars.....different times, not angles..
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 30, 2011, 09:01:17 PM
somehow next to all these guys murry doesn't seem all that tall. i know his head it down but  :? maybe it is just an illusion :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 30, 2011, 09:15:20 PM
2good, your pics show opposite sides of the doorway. No evidence. There's no "bar" visible in the large picture either. I think that's why no one responded to your post the first time.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on April 30, 2011, 11:03:53 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Bec look at this gif, the plant down there in the curb IS THERE, just take a good look.............it's the angle that fools the eye

It's right there at the beggining, in a moment when you almost can't see the ambulance and the image moves to the right
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/655858-1.gif)

Yes but they don't all match, the part of the bush spilling over the curb doesn't seem to lay directly on the pavement like it does in the other videos, and the watersprouts are still inexplicably absent as is the lowest branch on the tree.

But again, it makes no logical sense at all what I see.

Bec, I do appreciate you and your persistence in research--even if it is trying to debunk what I say; indeed, that is what I asked for.   :)

Various people here come from a wide range of experiences and careers, each having their own areas of interest or expertise that they can contribute.

In this case, and actually with a lot of the pictures and videos being analyzed, most people here do not have very much if any experience in still photography, videography, and video editing, etc.

Those who do have experience in this field would easily recognize the very low resolution pixelization (from compression codec) in the video clip here—and specifically in the area of the missing water sprouts, etc.  You can see the squares in the video, and there is only one color inside each square; this means that there is no possibility of any detail being seen within the area of those squares.  The video just takes an average color in the area of the square, and makes the entire square that same color.  It saves a lot on data usage, and is common with low quality video.  This is not the same as blurring a high quality picture, in which case you can still see the water sprouts (as demonstrated already on this thread).
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on April 30, 2011, 11:06:25 PM
Thanks TS. That makes sense.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on April 30, 2011, 11:07:53 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Thanks TS. That makes sense.

You're welcome.   :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on April 30, 2011, 11:09:46 PM
Quote from: "Im_convincedmjalive"
"The noblest art is that of making others happy."
— P.T. Barnum

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2011/04/29/0429-pig-mj-bn.jpg)

"I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right."
— P.T. Barnum

(http://www.platformnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/distraction1.jpg)

when i see the look on michael's face here and the pig it brings to mind : if you give a pig a pancake  :lol:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on May 01, 2011, 12:13:53 AM
Quote from: "bec"
2good, your pics show opposite sides of the doorway. No evidence. There's no "bar" visible in the large picture either. I think that's why no one responded to your post the first time.


That's a very rude comment Bec.. I was replying to FinFin's question.  YOU DON"T OWN THIS TOPIC.  Infact, you seem really obsessed about being right instead of finding out the truth.  Those sort of comments are uncalled for.  I do not appreciate it.  An apology would be expected.

I'm outta here.  ................
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on May 01, 2011, 12:18:50 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Bec look at this gif, the plant down there in the curb IS THERE, just take a good look.............it's the angle that fools the eye

It's right there at the beggining, in a moment when you almost can't see the ambulance and the image moves to the right
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/655858-1.gif)

Yes but they don't all match, the part of the bush spilling over the curb doesn't seem to lay directly on the pavement like it does in the other videos, and the watersprouts are still inexplicably absent as is the lowest branch on the tree.

But again, it makes no logical sense at all what I see.

Bec, I do appreciate you and your persistence in research--even if it is trying to debunk what I say; indeed, that is what I asked for.   :)

Various people here come from a wide range of experiences and careers, each having their own areas of interest or expertise that they can contribute.

In this case, and actually with a lot of the pictures and videos being analyzed, most people here do not have very much if any experience in still photography, videography, and video editing, etc.

Those who do have experience in this field would easily recognize the very low resolution pixelization (from compression codec) in the video clip here—and specifically in the area of the missing water sprouts, etc.  You can see the squares in the video, and there is only one color inside each square; this means that there is no possibility of any detail being seen within the area of those squares.  The video just takes an average color in the area of the square, and makes the entire square that same color.  It saves a lot on data usage, and is common with low quality video.  This is not the same as blurring a high quality picture, in which case you can still see the water sprouts (as demonstrated already on this thread).

Of course! Why didn't I think about the pixels resolution?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on May 01, 2011, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Bec look at this gif, the plant down there in the curb IS THERE, just take a good look.............it's the angle that fools the eye

It's right there at the beggining, in a moment when you almost can't see the ambulance and the image moves to the right
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b453/Anna-Jackson/655858-1.gif)

Yes but they don't all match, the part of the bush spilling over the curb doesn't seem to lay directly on the pavement like it does in the other videos, and the watersprouts are still inexplicably absent as is the lowest branch on the tree.

But again, it makes no logical sense at all what I see.

Bec, I do appreciate you and your persistence in research--even if it is trying to debunk what I say; indeed, that is what I asked for.   :)

Various people here come from a wide range of experiences and careers, each having their own areas of interest or expertise that they can contribute.

In this case, and actually with a lot of the pictures and videos being analyzed, most people here do not have very much if any experience in still photography, videography, and video editing, etc.

Those who do have experience in this field would easily recognize the very low resolution pixelization (from compression codec) in the video clip here—and specifically in the area of the missing water sprouts, etc.  You can see the squares in the video, and there is only one color inside each square; this means that there is no possibility of any detail being seen within the area of those squares.  The video just takes an average color in the area of the square, and makes the entire square that same color.  It saves a lot on data usage, and is common with low quality video.  This is not the same as blurring a high quality picture, in which case you can still see the water sprouts (as demonstrated already on this thread).

Of course! Why didn't I think about the pixels resolution?

Because TS like to use "POWER OF SUGGESTION".  and that conclusion is the most obvious and has been brought up many times before.  Good luck with the mind games....
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on May 01, 2011, 12:31:41 AM
I am not sure I understand what you mean.

TS is right about the resolution. I don't see the mind games here.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on May 01, 2011, 12:40:14 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
I am not sure I understand what you mean.

TS is right about the resolution. I don't see the mind games here.

Its a long story Ginafelicia......I just find it hard to trust our "sources" anymore.  Power of suggestion is a very powerful tool.......  Espeically when we don't have the answers, we become very vulnerable.  God Bless.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on May 01, 2011, 01:04:20 AM
Hmmm... I think we prove all the time that we don't blindly trust one "source" or another.

But if what the "source" says makes sense I don't see why we wouldn't accept this.

Sometimes I think we have to step back and try to see the big picture ... like we were told in early years at school: use the analysis and synthesis skills...might be useful in this case
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: wishingstar on May 01, 2011, 01:06:12 AM
TS says:
"In this case, and actually with a lot of the pictures and videos being analyzed, most people here do not have very much if any experience in still photography, videography, and video editing, etc."

I think this is an important thing to understand about the entire hoax.  I feel like the answers are in front of us. If we learn to see/hear more than what the media has fed us.  Wouldn't Michael want to include everyone?  Push them to think outside their comfort zone, but, include them.  Our eyes have a tendency to focus on what the heart fears most.  In this case, the death of Michael.  The world was obsessed with it....for a time.  Our eyes were focused on that fear, rather than love.  Michael did say to put love back into the world.  What we didn't realize is that it came back in via a shock-treatment.  You never know what you have....till it's gone.  
I have a small photography background and can understand much of the discussions.  However, I have stepped away from the more difficult dissections of these photos.  In part because I feel they are easier to understand than we are making them out to be.  The answers don't lie within the pixelations, they lie within what can be seen by the naked eye.....I respectfully believe.  I have stared at these photos for months, seeing subtle differences and wondering indeed if, this is it?  Then my mind changes back to other parts of the hoax....reason, timing, general wonder.  I recently wrote a good friend about thoughts on This Is It.  I feel there is an obvious story structure, however, I'll save that for another thread/time.  I really just wanted to comment on this one quote from TS.  

Blessings Always
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on May 01, 2011, 01:07:00 AM
Smart and funny at the same time gains my trust......I easily get addicted to smart and funny people :mrgreen:

And I totally like it
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on May 01, 2011, 05:34:05 AM
Well, so the sprouts could be there, we just don't see them. Still leaves me with no body, ambulance ride added to what I thought before. Doesn't make much difference since in both scenarios the same amount of people would be in.

Shall we get back to that issue so we can come to a conclusion before the trial starts next week?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: 2good2btrue on May 01, 2011, 07:15:54 AM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Well, so the sprouts could be there, we just don't see them. Still leaves me with no body, ambulance ride added to what I thought before. Doesn't make much difference since in both scenarios the same amount of people would be in.

Shall we get back to that issue so we can come to a conclusion before the trial starts next week?

I agree with you souza... We are not expert photographers, or botanist.... :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:

Back to biology and the hunt for a body :D  :D  :D  ..
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on May 01, 2011, 07:33:32 AM
I look at so many pages on the topic and i don't understand the mechanism. I don't see the importance of the ambulance, fake or real, the call, fake or real, the leaves, fake or real, the paramedics, fake or real etc. I thought we already agreed Michael is alive. It looks like you are trying to find reasons/clues to believe or maybe i am missing something but how do the agreed answers change (answers we don't even know they're right or not) your belief about the hoax? It's like you know Michael is alive but it's more important for you to understand how than why and where does this head to.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on May 01, 2011, 08:24:49 AM
Quote from: "heartphantom"
I look at so many pages on the topic and i don't understand the mechanism. I don't see the importance of the ambulance, fake or real, the call, fake or real, the leaves, fake or real, the paramedics, fake or real etc. I thought we already agreed Michael is alive. It looks like you are trying to find reasons/clues to believe or maybe i am missing something but how do the agreed answers change (answers we don't even know they're right or not) your belief about the hoax? It's like you know Michael is alive but it's more important for you to understand how than why and where does this head to.
I've been asking that question for a year....will it bring him back?  What does it matter until he tells us and who's to say what is correct?  But, still, I can't stay out of it either :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on May 01, 2011, 08:28:43 AM
I think everybody is confused  but at least we can try to make a conclusion.
I don't know from where to start again now.
If people could just resume their conclusions in short posts - would be great.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: anewfan on May 01, 2011, 09:49:09 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Another good question is where did TS get access to such clear video of that scene to make such a clear screenshot. I am unable to find any video other then the one on Youtube, and they are all the same quality.

Additionally, where is the video that shows such an angle as the one TS posted the screenshot of, and why didn't he link to it. If he didn't screenshot it, where did he find it on the web and why didn't he link to it. He links to everything else, why no link to his source this time?

Funny business is afoot.


I was wondering that same thing, so I went in search of SAMProd.us (which is stamped across the video) and I found the video. (for some reason it won't let me select youtube to embed it. This video is on a user name SamProdTV on Youtube. He has a website listed on his homepage as http://www.samprod.us (http://www.samprod.us) but when you click on it, the site doesn't work. I went to whois and found out who it was registered to, but I'm not sure if we are allowed to post names of people anymore? The guy is a French reporter and is listed as owner of PanAm Press and Alligator TV. I tried to do a search for either of these companies and found nothing. Interesting to say the least......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: RK on May 01, 2011, 10:41:23 AM
Quote from: "heartphantom"
I look at so many pages on the topic and i don't understand the mechanism. I don't see the importance of the ambulance, fake or real, the call, fake or real, the leaves, fake or real, the paramedics, fake or real etc. I thought we already agreed Michael is alive. It looks like you are trying to find reasons/clues to believe or maybe i am missing something but how do the agreed answers change (answers we don't even know they're right or not) your belief about the hoax? It's like you know Michael is alive but it's more important for you to understand how than why and where does this head to.
Heartphantom, most of us started following TIAI way....  way.... back and as part of this hoax is designed as an ARG, we aren't going to stop playing now. Yes, majority of us are totally convinced MJ is fine and dandy and this is a hoax, but I guess this is like pitting oneself against the master illusionist and trying to crack how he pulled it off. [I have no chance  :oops: ] . Reminds me of a video of MJ I'm recalling where he's kind of bragging how he's never lost a water fort fight ever and usually he doesn't even get wet. It's a bit like this. We probably won't figure it all out and even if we did, TS maybe wouldn't tell us yet, but still we analyze, watch, read other theories and generally think this over and over and over until our brains seem to be reduced to the size of a walnut. Sometimes some of us winge and let off steam, but we all come back to take another crack at how MJ pulled this off.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on May 01, 2011, 12:00:42 PM
Hello all! :D
I'm reading a very interesting book "Defending the guilty" by Alex McBride and i've just came across an interesting part of the book.

Prologue. Page 16.
Quote
I remembered the pretty young woman from the wedding back when i was starting as a barrister, who had taken her disgust at my argument out on her salmon. The real target of her dismay, i realized, was not barristers so much as the adversarial justice system itself, pitting two sides against each other and turning the deliberation of the facts into a partisan battle rather than a search a search for the objective truth. She was shocked because, as she saw it, for the system to work barristers had to present as true versions of events which they knew to be false. On one side, you have the defence trying to sabotage the prosecution case: it argues for important evidence to excluded, undermines honest testimony and then uses the remnants of the facts, the helpful bits, to mislead the jury. On the other, you have the prosecution. The police have investigated what suits them in order to build a case against the defendant that will stick. Facts that point away from the defendants's guilt might be either ignored or not properly examined. Vital material exonerating the defendant might go undisclosed. Any notion of justice becomes lost beneath each side's self interest.
    Sitting on the train back to London, watching fields of sheep roll by, i wondered whether the whole system was corrupt. I started to question whether the 'us versus them', gladiators in sober suits whacking each other over the head with legal texts, was not the majestic display of justice i had assumed but a cynical licence to hoodwink the jury.
    There is a set of procedural guidelines for criminal trials racily titled the Criminal Procedure Rules. The 'overriding objective' of these rules is that criminal cases 'be dealt with justly'. The most important element of this objective is for the court process to acquit the innocent and convict the guilty. As statements of intent go, it is unimpeachable and it's what the criminal courts try to do every day. But there's a fundamental and irreconcilable tension between these two principles. I din't know whether Arthur was guilty or not. He probably was guilty but if 'probably' was what the jury thought, then it was not good enough. A jury has to be sure. I asked myself which one was more important: acquitting the innocent or convicting the guilty? I wondered where justice was to be found within these two competing aims. In the end the criminal justice system has to choose to lean one way or the other. And, in a sense, we have found a way: a defendant is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The question is whether our adversarial justice system helps the jury to a 'just' verdict, or whether it makes things harder.

Who is Alex McBride?
Quote
Every day, criminal barrister Alex McBride stands up in court and attempts to save people from conviction, prison, even a lifetime behind bars. Sometimes it's a hopeless case. Sometimes he has the chance to right a wrong. Bust mostly his clients are just plain guilty.

Who is that pretty young woman from wedding?
Prologue. page 3
Quote
Reading the trial papers, i recalled a question i had been asked by a pretty young woman whom i had been sat next to at a wedding dinner the weekend before. It's a question barristers are always asked: 'How can you defend someone who you know is guilty?'
   I gave her the perfectly valid but stock answer: someone is innocent until proven guilty. No matter what they might have done nor how formidable the case against them might be, in a democratic society based on the rule of law they are entitled to a fair and just hearing. The only way they're going to get that is if they are robustly defended by committed defence barristers. Remember you never really know whether someone is guilty because you weren't there when the alleged crime was committed. The advocate's opinion is irrelevant. It's what the jury thinks that counts. Rather than recognize me as an irresistibly attractive paladin of justice, she started mashing up the salmon on her plate with the flat of her fork. It was clear that neither criminal barristers, nor my argument, impressed her.

I think that each of us can draw our own conclusions from this.

L.O.V.E to all! :D
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: paula-c on May 01, 2011, 12:01:35 PM
Quote
~Souza~ wrote:

Well, so the sprouts could be there, we just don't see them. Still leaves me with no body, ambulance ride added to what I thought before. Doesn't make much difference since in both scenarios the same amount of people would be in.

Shall we get back to that issue so we can come to a conclusion before the trial starts next week?


If i was thinking the same thing, that is the subject of this thread, return to the photo again :?:
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Yulia on May 01, 2011, 01:53:26 PM
Quote from: "anewfan"
Quote from: "bec"
Another good question is where did TS get access to such clear video of that scene to make such a clear screenshot. I am unable to find any video other then the one on Youtube, and they are all the same quality.

Additionally, where is the video that shows such an angle as the one TS posted the screenshot of, and why didn't he link to it. If he didn't screenshot it, where did he find it on the web and why didn't he link to it. He links to everything else, why no link to his source this time?

Funny business is afoot.


I was wondering that same thing, so I went in search of SAMProd.us (which is stamped across the video) and I found the video. (for some reason it won't let me select youtube to embed it. This video is on a user name SamProdTV on Youtube. He has a website listed on his homepage as http://www.samprod.us (http://www.samprod.us) but when you click on it, the site doesn't work. I went to whois and found out who it was registered to, but I'm not sure if we are allowed to post names of people anymore? The guy is a French reporter and is listed as owner of PanAm Press and Alligator TV. I tried to do a search for either of these companies and found nothing. Interesting to say the least......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI)

those videos are on the web and someone posted them. also the HQ one
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: navibl on May 01, 2011, 03:04:59 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Ms. Katherine depresses me all the time.....
I just saw that recent interview and she says her son is gone forever and Murray should pay and she was very upset.
I don't think it is possible she doesn't know about the hoax.
Maybe Michael is dead because I can't understand how comes Ms. Katherine speakes like that

 I believe if your childs life was in danger, and you knew that the only way to convience the people that need to believe Michael is dead, in order to uncover the corruption behind the people who wanted him dead, That you would do and say what ever necessary to the public to sound as conviencing as possible and put some very conviencing tears to go with it, because I am sure she is sad about what her son has had to deal with, and that he can't be openly with his family. I cry for my children over much less things. A mother will go to any extent for her child. And Katherine being Jehova's Witness has nothing to do with what she would say.  Abramham in the bible lied to the Pharos of Eqypt on two different occations to save his own life.  I hope that you will be able to come to some solid belief one way or the other, before this trial starts, because this will not be easy unless you do or for anyone who is not solid in their belief.  It will be hard enough for the hard core believers, but we know what the enemy is capable of and we know what Michael is capable of, so I pray that you find peace and resovle soon.  My prayers are with you!
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on May 01, 2011, 03:47:18 PM
Quote from: "heartphantom"
I look at so many pages on the topic and i don't understand the mechanism. I don't see the importance of the ambulance, fake or real, the call, fake or real, the leaves, fake or real, the paramedics, fake or real etc. I thought we already agreed Michael is alive. It looks like you are trying to find reasons/clues to believe or maybe i am missing something but how do the agreed answers change (answers we don't even know they're right or not) your belief about the hoax? It's like you know Michael is alive but it's more important for you to understand how than why and where does this head to.

A while ago I posted my opinion on that. I think what TS wants is that we can assemble a complete theory and find the answers to several questions we had about the death of Michael. Maybe it would be up a defense and a good argument for Michael when he returns. He could say: "All the clues were there, who investigated found. "
But sometimes I feel disappointed because I think we have not reached any conclusion yet. We do not have complete answers to the photo of the ambulance and we do not know who and how many people know the game and no one who went to the hospital (or if there was someone or something that was there). That is, it seems that my initial view was wrong. We were unable to reach agreement on a complete theory to date, and sometimes I feel that this will not happen!
[center:l9fw6fvv][/center:l9fw6fvv](http://content.sweetim.com/sim/cpie/emoticons/000203F5.gif)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on May 01, 2011, 04:57:53 PM
Quote
I think what TS wants is that we can assemble a complete theory and find the answers to several questions we had about the death of Michael
I have to admit i didn't finish reading everything, God it's a LOT. I got dizzy and tired trying to understand the leaves already :lol: and then gave up because i've noticed everything is going round circles and ...i dont see the point. It's not like we have the correct answers at the end of the quiz to see who's the winner at least.


TS, why don't you tell us what you think. You  start topics and throw directions and then you dissapear. I mean there are so many important topics just left behind, too bad with so many brilliant minds...You choose what you think it's important and then let members argue with no final conclusions. What is this? And is your information authorized , do you know the answers or are they just opinions? If you know the answers and you are afraid you might not be believed without reasonable argument ,  why don't you try us? You are respected here by everyone so i doubt anyone would trash you, i mean we would be all understanding if you couldn't back up your info with evidence. Just tell us the info. You sure want us to find it if you invest so much work in guiding us.
But if you're just like one of us trying to find the correct answers using your intelligence, i find it appropriate to mention that loud. Because that changes everything! Because If a legit source tells me: "ok, i know more than you but i don't tell you because you wouldn't believe me anyway so here is how we do it, i will guide you where to look", i would dig and dig and dig. Sure maybe at some point ,if he doesn't just mess with my head, he tells me ok stop right there, you got it, you are right, that is correct. That is what i knew and couldn't tell you. Now you know it for sure.. But if that source is not legit, maybe i wouldn't dig and dig and dig something just because he may find it important, because the path may be false and because i wouldn't know when and if i find the correct answer anyway.


Hoping for an answer if you find the questions relevant. Thank you.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: navibl on May 01, 2011, 08:15:10 PM
Quote from: "heartphantom"
Quote
I think what TS wants is that we can assemble a complete theory and find the answers to several questions we had about the death of Michael
I have to admit i didn't finish reading everything, God it's a LOT. I got dizzy and tired trying to understand the leaves already :lol: and then gave up because i've noticed everything is going round circles and ...i dont see the point. It's not like we have the correct answers at the end of the quiz to see who's the winner at least.


TS, why don't you tell us what you think. You  start topics and throw directions and then you dissapear. I mean there are so many important topics just left behind, too bad with so many brilliant minds...You choose what you think it's important and then let members argue with no final conclusions. What is this? And is your information authorized , do you know the answers or are they just opinions? If you know the answers and you are afraid you might not be believed without reasonable argument ,  why don't you try us? You are respected here by everyone so i doubt anyone would trash you, i mean we would be all understanding if you couldn't back up your info with evidence. Just tell us the info. You sure want us to find it if you invest so much work in guiding us.
But if you're just like one of us trying to find the correct answers using your intelligence, i find it appropriate to mention that loud. Because that changes everything! Because If a legit source tells me: "ok, i know more than you but i don't tell you because you wouldn't believe me anyway so here is how we do it, i will guide you where to look", i would dig and dig and dig. Sure maybe at some point ,if he doesn't just mess with my head, he tells me ok stop right there, you got it, you are right, that is correct. That is what i knew and couldn't tell you. Now you know it for sure.. But if that source is not legit, maybe i wouldn't dig and dig and dig something just because he may find it important, because the path may be false and because i wouldn't know when and if i find the correct answer anyway.


Hoping for an answer if you find the questions relevant. Thank you.


Let’s just say that TS came in and sat down and gave us the whole scoop from start to finish.  What do you think the first thing that would happen would be?  I will tell you, there are many people that view this website that never comment that would come out of the wood work with their different ideas and viewpoints, and want TS to give some kind of proof that what he is saying is right.  THEN we would be right back at square one having to go thru this whole scenario anyway.  

Right now we are only working with the events of 6/25/09.  There are multiple layer to the events of that day.  So if we can’t think for ourselves and give our own solid ideas now, how will we do this when the opposition comes in and wants proof for what we believe?  THAT is why TS doesn’t just lay it all out there nice and neat and pretty.  And don’t think for a second when we have to analyze what our government is doing to us, that they will sit down and give us all the answers either.  They will certainly continue as they have been, to hide the truth.  The truth about NASA’s findings, the truth about the failure of the New Madrid Fault in the US.  The truth about to soon to collapse US dollar.  We have to dig to find truth, and this is our test run in a safe invironment.

Fact is, we better become very good at uncovering truth, because some very diabolical things are and will continue to happen at the hands of our governments.  Charlie Sheen and many other Hollywood celebrities are getting ready this summer to bring to us a similar “Think for yourself” presentation about the inside job in the US on 9/11.  Look how they have been trying to discredit Charlie so that no one will hear him.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on May 01, 2011, 10:48:12 PM
Quote from: "navibl"
Let’s just say that TS came in and sat down and gave us the whole scoop from start to finish.  What do you think the first thing that would happen would be?  I will tell you, there are many people that view this website that never comment that would come out of the wood work with their different ideas and viewpoints, and want TS to give some kind of proof that what he is saying is right.  THEN we would be right back at square one having to go thru this whole scenario anyway.  

Exactly!

Also, there has been progress in all of this investigation; and we will have a new level up in a couple of hours!

typing/
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on May 01, 2011, 10:54:02 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote from: "navibl"
Let’s just say that TS came in and sat down and gave us the whole scoop from start to finish.  What do you think the first thing that would happen would be?  I will tell you, there are many people that view this website that never comment that would come out of the wood work with their different ideas and viewpoints, and want TS to give some kind of proof that what he is saying is right.  THEN we would be right back at square one having to go thru this whole scenario anyway.  

Exactly!

Also, there has been progress in all of this investigation; and we will have a new level up in a couple of hours!

typing/

Oh, can't wait. I have to get to work in 6 hours, do I have enough time?

You like the new smilies, dontcha? lolol/
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on May 01, 2011, 11:03:46 PM
I have the week off.

 michael-jackson/  michael-jackson/  michael-jackson/  michael-jackson/  michael-jackson/  michael-jackson/  michael-jackson/
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: TS_comments on May 01, 2011, 11:07:31 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Oh, can't wait. I have to get to work in 6 hours, do I have enough time?

You like the new smilies, dontcha? lolol/

Yes, you have enough time.

And yes, I like the new smilies--as well as the ambulance login, etc.  Thanks for all the improvements!
 bearhug
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: ~Souza~ on May 01, 2011, 11:11:00 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote from: "~Souza~"
Oh, can't wait. I have to get to work in 6 hours, do I have enough time?

You like the new smilies, dontcha? lolol/

Yes, you have enough time.

And yes, I like the new smilies--as well as the ambulance login, etc.  Thanks for all the improvements!
 bearhug

Ha! Yeah well since this saga is becoming more and more a circus, I thought this site could use more hysteria as well  lolol/  
party/
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: GINAFELICIA on May 01, 2011, 11:53:44 PM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote from: "navibl"
Let’s just say that TS came in and sat down and gave us the whole scoop from start to finish.  What do you think the first thing that would happen would be?  I will tell you, there are many people that view this website that never comment that would come out of the wood work with their different ideas and viewpoints, and want TS to give some kind of proof that what he is saying is right.  THEN we would be right back at square one having to go thru this whole scenario anyway.  

Exactly!

Also, there has been progress in all of this investigation; and we will have a new level up in a couple of hours!

typing/

I'm not complaining but where are the conclusions for this one suspicious// ?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on May 02, 2011, 12:37:49 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote from: "navibl"
Let’s just say that TS came in and sat down and gave us the whole scoop from start to finish.  What do you think the first thing that would happen would be?  I will tell you, there are many people that view this website that never comment that would come out of the wood work with their different ideas and viewpoints, and want TS to give some kind of proof that what he is saying is right.  THEN we would be right back at square one having to go thru this whole scenario anyway.  

Exactly!

Also, there has been progress in all of this investigation; and we will have a new level up in a couple of hours!

typing/

NEW LEVEL! NEW LEVEL! NEW LEVEL! party/
Perfect timing TS, i didn't sleep whole night and my brain is most active now! I'm not kidding, it's true. bounce/
Could you please tell us what is the progress that you are referring to? What questions have been answered? Please  bow/  

L.O.V.E to all! bearhug
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Adi on May 02, 2011, 12:49:01 AM
Been reading here lots and trying to understand everything but not commenting much lately.

Looking forward to the next level TS.

Love the new board look and smilies too Souza!!!  mj_dance/
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on May 02, 2011, 05:37:11 AM
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote from: "navibl"
Let’s just say that TS came in and sat down and gave us the whole scoop from start to finish.  What do you think the first thing that would happen would be?  I will tell you, there are many people that view this website that never comment that would come out of the wood work with their different ideas and viewpoints, and want TS to give some kind of proof that what he is saying is right.  THEN we would be right back at square one having to go thru this whole scenario anyway.  

Exactly!

Also, there has been progress in all of this investigation; and we will have a new level up in a couple of hours!

typing/


Saying there has been progress does not help the investigation since we don't know where we've progressed. There are a lot of intelligent but different opinions here, people worked really hard, how do we know which one are the unequivocal conclusions. How do we know which are the wrong elements to remove them from our  further investigation, so we can evolve as you say. And where does this head to? Evolve in what?  

Probably you won't answer if your knowledge is from a legit source. It's not about identity, it's about the information. Do you know more than us from a legit source or are you just like us? This changes everything, because we have to know if your answers value more than any other members, simply because you're in the "know" and they're not. Are you in the "know" or are you simply investigating like us?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on May 02, 2011, 06:17:41 AM
Also, if you say there has been progress in all of this investigation you arrogate yourself a superior position (not in a bad way), but only a person who know the answers can tell us if we made progress. Please don't trick us and be honest: are you entitled to tell us that we have made progress or is it just a narcisistic projection of your intelligence? Sorry if you find my post unpolite, but it is really important to know that. Maybe others simply enjoy games and levels and don't care about your source of knowlegde that much, but i really have to know if making progress is a fact or an assumption. It would be a fair game for both sides.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on May 02, 2011, 07:41:09 AM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
Quote from: "TS_comments"
Quote from: "navibl"
Let’s just say that TS came in and sat down and gave us the whole scoop from start to finish.  What do you think the first thing that would happen would be?  I will tell you, there are many people that view this website that never comment that would come out of the wood work with their different ideas and viewpoints, and want TS to give some kind of proof that what he is saying is right.  THEN we would be right back at square one having to go thru this whole scenario anyway.  

Exactly!

Also, there has been progress in all of this investigation; and we will have a new level up in a couple of hours!

typing/

I'm not complaining but where are the conclusions for this one suspicious// ?
I agree!!  This happened last time we "moved up" ..whatever...I never saw a conclusion there either... Still don't know what decisions we've come to everytime we supposedly "graduated" to another level! I WANT TO KNOW TOO, that's on reason I'm here all day every day.  Can't someone tell me what we've accomplished at each "level"..?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: _Anna_ on May 02, 2011, 09:14:43 AM
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I agree!!  This happened last time we "moved up" ..whatever...I never saw a conclusion there either... Still don't know what decisions we've come to everytime we supposedly "graduated" to another level! I WANT TO KNOW TOO, that's on reason I'm here all day every day.  Can't someone tell me what we've accomplished at each "level"..?

Well, this is what TS said in the post from today about what has been accomplished.

"In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD). In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used."



So:

1. The photo is staged before 25th of June 2009 (and still he hasn't given any answer to the leaf pattern, what was that and what it meant)

2. The FBI is making this work, at least some key people in FBI and cooperating with one of more from LAFD. So the paramedics (at least few of them) are in

3. There's still no proof wether a body was used or not.


I hope I helped you, fordtocarr.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on May 02, 2011, 09:35:55 AM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I agree!!  This happened last time we "moved up" ..whatever...I never saw a conclusion there either... Still don't know what decisions we've come to everytime we supposedly "graduated" to another level! I WANT TO KNOW TOO, that's on reason I'm here all day every day.  Can't someone tell me what we've accomplished at each "level"..?

Well, this is what TS said in the post from today about what has been accomplished.

"In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD). In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used."



So:

1. The photo is staged before 25th of June 2009 (and still he hasn't given any answer to the leaf pattern, what was that and what it meant)

2. The FBI is making this work, at least some key people in FBI and cooperating with one of more from LAFD. So the paramedics (at least few of them) are in

3. There's still no proof wether a body was used or not.


I hope I helped you, fordtocarr.
YES...thank you Anna....I also now see that TS has posted that on another thread.  Thanks for the reply so quick :))  LOVE
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on May 02, 2011, 09:36:23 AM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I agree!!  This happened last time we "moved up" ..whatever...I never saw a conclusion there either... Still don't know what decisions we've come to everytime we supposedly "graduated" to another level! I WANT TO KNOW TOO, that's on reason I'm here all day every day.  Can't someone tell me what we've accomplished at each "level"..?

Well, this is what TS said in the post from today about what has been accomplished.

"In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD). In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used."



So:

1. The photo is staged before 25th of June 2009 (and still he hasn't given any answer to the leaf pattern, what was that and what it meant)

2. The FBI is making this work, at least some key people in FBI and cooperating with one of more from LAFD. So the paramedics (at least few of them) are in

3. There's still no proof wether a body was used or not.


I hope I helped you, fordtocarr.

Sorry, but I have to say that there is nothing new here, this we already knew or at least distrusted. I still dream about knowing anything truly important. I insist on knowing what happened at Hospital  UCLA, this is the key to everything! Michael remained there for over 1 hour (at least from what we were told). If it was all an illusion, why not declare him dead the more fast? If the doctors worked on it for hours, as Jermaine said, many people would have access to him. I know what I mean! Within a hospital has no way to limit entry of the profissionals.
I've tried to pull the subject of UCLA several times, but people seem not to care about it.
Perhaps TS does not know of anything that occurred there, so I'll continue to be ignored. Because we only have discussions about things that came out on TV? The ambulance was leaving the house, the photo and now the court. Everything else remains a mystery forever? Yeah, maybe.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on May 02, 2011, 09:42:49 AM
Quote
If the doctors worked on it for hours, as Jermaine said, many people would have access to him.

Yeah well to follow your logic you have to assume JJ was telling the truth. Do you?

I don't.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on May 02, 2011, 09:49:57 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote
If the doctors worked on it for hours, as Jermaine said, many people would have access to him.

Yeah well to follow your logic you have to assume JJ was telling the truth. Do you?

I don't.
I do not know if it was true, but it is news that the world was given. Just know that this could easily be denied. Michael would not take this risk, the FBI would not control all. :?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on May 02, 2011, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote
If the doctors worked on it for hours, as Jermaine said, many people would have access to him.

Yeah well to follow your logic you have to assume JJ was telling the truth. Do you?

I don't.
I do not know if it was true, but it is news that the world was given. Just know that this could easily be denied. Michael would not take this risk, the FBI would not control all. :?

By who? Someone who says they weren't there and saw nothing? Think about it.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: AnaMarcia on May 02, 2011, 10:12:04 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "AnaMarcia"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote
If the doctors worked on it for hours, as Jermaine said, many people would have access to him.

Yeah well to follow your logic you have to assume JJ was telling the truth. Do you?

I don't.
I do not know if it was true, but it is news that the world was given. Just know that this could easily be denied. Michael would not take this risk, the FBI would not control all. :?

By who? Someone who says they weren't there and saw nothing? Think about it.

Bec, thanks. It's not for lack of thinking, but I find no consistent response. Do you?
I'm really confused about UCLA. I really think somebody could say that he was not there at that time and nobody saw anything. Anyway, this would be a great risk, is not it?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on May 02, 2011, 10:13:40 AM
There's no risk if there is nothing to see and nothing to talk about. It's very difficult to refute statements made about events that no one saw.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on May 02, 2011, 11:16:08 AM
Quote from: "heartphantom"

Saying there has been progress does not help the investigation since we don't know where we've progressed. There are a lot of intelligent but different opinions here, people worked really hard, how do we know which one are the unequivocal conclusions. How do we know which are the wrong elements to remove them from our  further investigation, so we can evolve as you say. And where does this head to? Evolve in what?  

Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I agree!!  This happened last time we "moved up" ..whatever...I never saw a conclusion there either... Still don't know what decisions we've come to everytime we supposedly "graduated" to another level! I WANT TO KNOW TOO, that's on reason I'm here all day every day.  Can't someone tell me what we've accomplished at each "level"..?

I have to agree with both of you. I've been reading every single post that we have been making but I do not see any progress or conclusion. IF creating irrational theories and talking about if the bushes outside of the house changed is a progress, then yes we did lots of progress! First we had the ambulance picture thread from TS, what's the conclusion of it? Everyone states their opinion about these issues and most of them are entitled to their opinions. How do we know which one is the right one? If there is no conclusion, why do we start discussing about it? What's the purpose?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: fordtocarr on May 02, 2011, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
Quote from: "heartphantom"

Saying there has been progress does not help the investigation since we don't know where we've progressed. There are a lot of intelligent but different opinions here, people worked really hard, how do we know which one are the unequivocal conclusions. How do we know which are the wrong elements to remove them from our  further investigation, so we can evolve as you say. And where does this head to? Evolve in what?  

Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I agree!!  This happened last time we "moved up" ..whatever...I never saw a conclusion there either... Still don't know what decisions we've come to everytime we supposedly "graduated" to another level! I WANT TO KNOW TOO, that's on reason I'm here all day every day.  Can't someone tell me what we've accomplished at each "level"..?

I have to agree with both of you. I've been reading every single post that we have been making but I do not see any progress or conclusion. IF creating irrational theories and talking about if the bushes outside of the house changed is a progress, then yes we did lots of progress! First we had the ambulance picture thread from TS, what's the conclusion of it? Everyone states their opinion about these issues and most of them are entitled to their opinions. How do we know which one is the right one? If there is no conclusion, why do we start discussing about it? What's the purpose?

DITTO!!!
Like I told TS...if you know something...spill it.  Back it up.  Granted, this is ONE HELL OF A GREAT analytical mind TS has.  Granted, we appreciate his scholarly ways.  But...it's become a game.  One where we have to advance.  But, when we get to the advance area...we don't even know we are there and we don't know how we got there.  There isn't even and sign to say where we are or how we got there.
All the things he tells us to do..HE NEED TO DO.  He says to be able to back up our claims...WELL, DO IT TOO TS.  Don't goose chase us.  We'd LOVE to have your ways be correct!!  We work towards it.  We try to reaffirm your leads.  But, you need to tell us where we are.  What's right if right.  Level us up??  For what??  What did we do right?  We are still all speculating all over the place and hoping our way is correct.
You make yourself less credible when you say....you can move to the next level..  what????  What are these levels...when did you take over and enlist us in this game like "dungeons and dragons" in that you are the storyteller and we create the story around your plot!!!!
I WANT YOU TO BE RIGHT.  I WANT US TO PROVE IT.  BUT, WE DO NOT KNOW WHERE WE ARE RIGHT OR WRONG AND STILL ARE OUT WALKING IN THE DARKNESS...
I'm agreeing with you PureLove beerchug  
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on May 02, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
Quote from: "GINAFELICIA"
I'm not complaining but where are the conclusions for this one suspicious// ?

Well, they gotta be here, somewhere in all the pages. I noticed that I missed something the LAST time he upped the level. It helps me to just think:  michael-jackson/  "the hand is quicker than the eye", and keep following, hoping it will all dawn on me at some point. :)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: suspicious mind on June 01, 2011, 02:59:49 PM
Quote from: "Its her"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I want to thank you all who encourage me to keep on hoaxing, including you TS.  I didn't mean to rant or sound depressed on this thread (there is one for that), but I DID want TS to know my feelings, so I placed it in his thread.
I am still no better off in the confusion, and I see that the posts following mine are not either.  TS, you posted in the very next comment to the one to me, in your first sentence, another obscure statement.  The very thing that upsets me.  Right off, you say "Let me first answer why there were not more people on the scene, if it was really 6-25-09."  Why, if you KNOW or don't know, just SAY it??  Why lead us on goose chases where we are like the blind, perhaps thinking we've picked up the golden egg when it was only goose poo!  We go on thinking we have it and then days later, you give us another "clue" that says something again obscure and double sided so we really don't know if we're right or wrong.  When you could JUST SAY IT!!You are a very valuable, intellectual, reasoning, investigative person to us.  But, I think you lead us to feel, in your intelligence, that all you present is correct or in the "know". We tend to give up other theories because again of your presented persona, which may be correct, when you could be just theorizing or speculating as we are.
Forgive me, please, you know how harmful I feel toward the messing with lives with this approach.  I am so grateful to your imput, I just really believe, put up or shut up.  Prove it or it's speculation.  You lead us to varied opinion, not consensus, and if you KNOW a fact, then there COULD BE a consensus.  FINALLY.

There is method to the madness.

Of course, TS KNOWs, if he is in anyway on the inside of this Mystery. Either he is writing it as he goes (NO), or he and MJ (and one other, I think ;) )have already worked out the millions of little details in this complex legal case, which will make or break the case, depending on an important hurdle of unpredictability:  the thoughts (deductions) and emotions which form jury opinion, which decides the outcome of the case, barring judicial overrule.

I think "TS" stands for "The Solicitor". He is male. He is an attorney. Could be Branca. Remember how they tried hard to paint him as an enemy, to throw us off his trail as in on the Hoax Plot...

WhoEVER he is, he is not a criminal attorney, but he is quick enough to know that no matter how ironclad the evidence, and how airtight the case they have worked out, everything can go WAY south if they cannot convince a jury. :!: People are quirky.

The object of this game (figuratively speaking) here, is not to come right out and tell us what TS already mostly knows (they may be deciding about something or other, yet).

It is not to build or flesh out their case, either, which I think, barring new evidence, is wrapped up).

It ESPECIALLY is not to frustrate us!  :) One thing may be frustrating THEM to no end :lol:  :lol:  8-) : is, that you cannot MAKE people see something which they don't (or won't) see!! THEY must point it out, unmistakeably. It is the lawyer's job.

A CRAFTY lawyer can put an innocent man in prison for a lifetime, convincing people that they see something which is not EVEN there. This is where the phrase came from that "Lawyers are LIARS".

But, a man of integrity, who wishes to hone his craft and consistently win for his clients, with the TRUTH, NEEDs to be able to paint the facts, logically, inside the heads of unlimited types of people, any given day: the distracted, the disinterested, those selected for jury against their preference, the under educated (on the subject at hand), the immature (growing old doesn't mean growing up), the antagonistic or hostile, people who, from the get go, hold prejudice for your client, and on and on and on.... :shock:

It is a test,  ;) (NOT of US) to see if presenting evidence in various ways will better control the outcome of opinion. The genius is in trying to "make us see" (where have we heard THAT?); or, trying to see if they CAN make all different kinds of people, SEE how it IS and win the case. See?  :)

There is NO pressure on us. :P  Yeah, use your "noodle", but, don't worry about it! It is supposed to be fun and educational. I refuse to feel like a lab mouse intellect (squeak), next to some of the ultra intelligent, here, because photography was never my thing, professionally or recreationally. I help myself to cheese every day, whether I'm rewarded here or NOT. We all have different things to add. It is not a competition.  :D

TS simply needs to make it clearer. If he were trying this case in court, and he can't give US (the most interested and focused audience EVER) enough facts arranged to be crystal clear to US, how are the actual attorneys going to prove it to the average joe? :?  :shock:  :geek:

Just throwing that out there.... ;)



the solicitor : what about oxman? is it possible ? what do you think?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on June 01, 2011, 04:05:49 PM
Did TS ever said Michael will come back ?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on June 01, 2011, 07:04:50 PM
Quote from: "heartphantom"
Did TS ever said Michael will come back ?

Yes, he's spoken about it several times.

The first time he really spoke about it was in TIAI Revealed Part 6:

Quote from: "TS"
Then what about the MJ “Return” to public view, when will that be? Well, the sad thing is that potentially he could’ve returned at Halloween; but we were not ready. We did not understand the NWO conspiracy aspect of the hoax, or the seriousness of it; in fact, the old MJHD was forbidding discussion on this subject! And just a few days later, it went down and was out for about a week. We simply were not ready for MJ to return yet; if he had, in all the excitement, people would’ve had little or no interest in studying into the NWO aspects of the hoax.

Since people were not ready for the MJ return at Halloween: immediately after the TII movie was released, TIAI was set up. The purpose of TIAI was (and still is) to give MJ fans, and especially hoax believers, a better understanding and bigger picture of the hoax and the reasons for it; this in turn would help prepare the way for the MJ “Return”!

Quote from: "TS"
You see, they couldn’t arrest Dr. Murray in October, and then have him sit in jail for not killing MJ—and then let him out in January or beyond when MJ returns, and says it’s all a hoax. So they did not arrest him in October. But if MJ was not planning on returning until January or beyond: then why the statement about an arrest back in October? Why not just say, back in October, that it would not be completed until 2010? Could it be that in early October, MJ was still planning on the “return” at Halloween—and then he had to change his plans?

Quote from: "TS"
Here again, this clue had more than one meaning. A fairly obvious one is that Easter relates to the resurrection theme of TII, especially the Thriller part. Does this mean that MJ will return next April, during the Easter season? Not necessarily. Then when can we expect the MJ return to public view? That’s what everyone wants to know, right?

As he said at the end of the movie: I will come “in my own time”; it is up to him alone, and nobody else will be able to figure it out for sure. Some distinct possibilities include: 12-25-09 (Christmas), 12-31-09 (full moon & New Years Eve), 1-1-10 (New Years Day), 1-18-10 (MLK Day), 1-25-10 (seven months since the “death”, and same time as the DVD release), or beyond. Hopefully not beyond; but that may depend, to a certain extent, on whether MJ fans are ready for the return (understand the TIAI message, join the Army of L.O.V.E., etc).

This is from TIAI Revealed Part 7:

Quote from: "TS"
Michael is well aware of these NWO powers, their corruption, their tremendous power, and their conspiracies (see R29). And he knows that these powers control the mass media; which means that if you do a hoax to expose the mass media corruption, you are inherently going to come under the wrath of the powers that control the media—you can’t do one, without having the other. So he has to be very careful with when and how he returns to the public eye.

Quote from: "TS"
It is my belief that when Michael does return there will be a war but it will be a non violent, peaceful war. A war based on numbers, unity, wits and L.O.V.E.”

This whole post is about the beginning of the return: viewtopic.php?f=125&t=3391&p=52818#p52818 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=3391&p=52818#p52818) and this one contains a lot of info about a return: viewtopic.php?f=125&t=3965&p=61068#p61068 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=3965&p=61068#p61068)

There is many more in later posts, I would include them too, but I'm short on time. They're in his posts though, ;)
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on June 01, 2011, 09:11:07 PM
Thank you a lot! I know you did an effort and took your time for it!
So, TS's words: You see, they couldn’t arrest Dr. Murray in October, and then have him sit in jail for not killing MJ—and then let him out in January or beyond when MJ returns, and says it’s all a hoax. So they did not arrest him in October.
Here what i understand is that Murray can't be arrested if Michael plans to come back, which is a logical conclusion. Hence, the delay - maybe the return preparations need more time.
Following same line i can assume that if Murray will be sent to jail, Michael's return is off.

Then TS' words: he could’ve returned at Halloween; but we were not ready. We did not understand the NWO conspiracy aspect of the hoax, or the seriousness of it
So is the return in our hands? Hands of believers? (because of course  non-believers can't undersand the NWO conspiracy aspect of the hoax while they don't even know there is a hoax). Will Michael delay the trial until he feels we understood the NWO? Was this a plan from the beginning? How could he know what was to happen. There was a big chance that this hoax rumours wold fade away within months, that people would not spent time on forums investigating every little aspect of his death , every single clue, less or more clue...So who was he counting on when planning? Assume 20% of this Planet is Michael's book for study and fans. Then let's say 10% of them accept he is dead. there are 10% left believers. about 2% gave up this hoax or are simply tired to speculate longer. 8%. From 8& not everyone has internet or not everyone communicates throgh interent or has the time or will to study this hoax deep and so serious that eventually to lead to a NWO conclusion. And there are so many many aspects that decrease the number of people left, we can all figure. Ok, i'm optimistic and say 5% actually will understand the NWO implications and the seriousness of this hoax. Then what happens, what is the result of our (few people) knowledge for Michael?
Further more, If this is a sting court then i can't even relate how is his return in our hands.

Quote
but that may depend, to a certain extent, on whether MJ fans are ready for the return (understand the TIAI message, join the Army of L.O.V.E., etc).
So his return may depend to a certain extent on a few thousand forum members who must understand TIAI message and join the Army of Love. Then this must be Michael's work backstage because TS can't speak on his behalf. How is Jermaine encouraging us to move on and stp hoax talking when we are supposed to understand the seriousness of this hoax, the NWO implications and TIAI messages?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on June 01, 2011, 11:09:45 PM
heartphantom, these and more questions run through my head all day long.

What if he's right, and it does somehow rest in our hands. What if we drop the ball? Will he cancel his life's work? Can't be. But then... maybe we could make it easier for him by helping grease the wheels.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on June 01, 2011, 11:16:38 PM
Will he cancel his life's work?  And his life with his children? And will he be living in hiding for the rest of his life? No, if he chooses all that, i can't believe it's all because of us. I just can't, it's too much to quit life, just because we're ignorants , what is his gain? Only loss. Losing life and family. makes no sense from the start because If one loves this world so much that he is able to give up his own life and children then how can he help his world by staying forever in hiding because of our failure to see?
But for any matter, i agree and  we can at least try to make it easier for him even if this is not in our hands. But how? How?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on June 01, 2011, 11:46:17 PM
Well if you listen to TS he says we have to prove it. If we prove it, then the prosecutors will look like idiots. MJ can come back because it's not an air tight hoax. If you really wanted to know the truth you could find it----> so proves us.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on June 02, 2011, 12:00:05 AM
to prove what?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on June 02, 2011, 10:17:00 AM
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
Quote from: "Its her"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
I want to thank you all who encourage me to keep on hoaxing, including you TS.  I didn't mean to rant or sound depressed on this thread (there is one for that), but I DID want TS to know my feelings, so I placed it in his thread.
I am still no better off in the confusion, and I see that the posts following mine are not either.  TS, you posted in the very next comment to the one to me, in your first sentence, another obscure statement.  The very thing that upsets me.  Right off, you say "Let me first answer why there were not more people on the scene, if it was really 6-25-09."  Why, if you KNOW or don't know, just SAY it??  Why lead us on goose chases where we are like the blind, perhaps thinking we've picked up the golden egg when it was only goose poo!  We go on thinking we have it and then days later, you give us another "clue" that says something again obscure and double sided so we really don't know if we're right or wrong.  When you could JUST SAY IT!!You are a very valuable, intellectual, reasoning, investigative person to us.  But, I think you lead us to feel, in your intelligence, that all you present is correct or in the "know". We tend to give up other theories because again of your presented persona, which may be correct, when you could be just theorizing or speculating as we are.
Forgive me, please, you know how harmful I feel toward the messing with lives with this approach.  I am so grateful to your imput, I just really believe, put up or shut up.  Prove it or it's speculation.  You lead us to varied opinion, not consensus, and if you KNOW a fact, then there COULD BE a consensus.  FINALLY.

There is method to the madness.

Of course, TS KNOWs, if he is in anyway on the inside of this Mystery. Either he is writing it as he goes (NO), or he and MJ (and one other, I think ;) )have already worked out the millions of little details in this complex legal case, which will make or break the case, depending on an important hurdle of unpredictability:  the thoughts (deductions) and emotions which form jury opinion, which decides the outcome of the case, barring judicial overrule.

I think "TS" stands for "The Solicitor". He is male. He is an attorney. Could be Branca. Remember how they tried hard to paint him as an enemy, to throw us off his trail as in on the Hoax Plot...

WhoEVER he is, he is not a criminal attorney, but he is quick enough to know that no matter how ironclad the evidence, and how airtight the case they have worked out, everything can go WAY south if they cannot convince a jury. :!: People are quirky.

The object of this game (figuratively speaking) here, is not to come right out and tell us what TS already mostly knows (they may be deciding about something or other, yet).

It is not to build or flesh out their case, either, which I think, barring new evidence, is wrapped up).

It ESPECIALLY is not to frustrate us!  :) One thing may be frustrating THEM to no end :lol:  :lol:  8-) : is, that you cannot MAKE people see something which they don't (or won't) see!! THEY must point it out, unmistakeably. It is the lawyer's job.

A CRAFTY lawyer can put an innocent man in prison for a lifetime, convincing people that they see something which is not EVEN there. This is where the phrase came from that "Lawyers are LIARS".

But, a man of integrity, who wishes to hone his craft and consistently win for his clients, with the TRUTH, NEEDs to be able to paint the facts, logically, inside the heads of unlimited types of people, any given day: the distracted, the disinterested, those selected for jury against their preference, the under educated (on the subject at hand), the immature (growing old doesn't mean growing up), the antagonistic or hostile, people who, from the get go, hold prejudice for your client, and on and on and on.... :shock:

It is a test,  ;) (NOT of US) to see if presenting evidence in various ways will better control the outcome of opinion. The genius is in trying to "make us see" (where have we heard THAT?); or, trying to see if they CAN make all different kinds of people, SEE how it IS and win the case. See?  :)

There is NO pressure on us. :P  Yeah, use your "noodle", but, don't worry about it! It is supposed to be fun and educational. I refuse to feel like a lab mouse intellect (squeak), next to some of the ultra intelligent, here, because photography was never my thing, professionally or recreationally. I help myself to cheese every day, whether I'm rewarded here or NOT. We all have different things to add. It is not a competition.  :D

TS simply needs to make it clearer. If he were trying this case in court, and he can't give US (the most interested and focused audience EVER) enough facts arranged to be crystal clear to US, how are the actual attorneys going to prove it to the average joe? :?  :shock:  :geek:

Just throwing that out there.... ;)



the solicitor : what about oxman? is it possible ? what do you think?

I never thought of him. MJ said, "Nothing's real, ALL is possible....". Oxman may be a solicitor...for trouble!! I don't know that much about him, but he seems like the perfect show-offy goofball to involve himself in a hoax (of ANYTHING :lol:  :lol: ). Still, I think he is WAAAAAY too silly to be TS, who has demonstrated GREAT logic, self-discipline and restraint, in the planning and composing all the posts in his name....TS seems to be a very calm peaceful soul. Is Brian Oxman? :?

IDK, but has Dave Dave gotten his law degree, yet? HE could  :o be behind the curtain, here, too, for college credit, or just for fine tuning his brief-writing skills... Or, and THIS is REEEEEALLY a long shot, but TS may not be an attorney, at ALL. He COULD be a scriptwriter, writing in the persona of a solicitor!!!! I won't say which scriptwriter, yet. If it IS the person I have in mind albino/ , you all will go NUTS. (I don't feel like a  beat-down, right now...perhaps a little later... ;)  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: ) respect/  respect/
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on June 02, 2011, 10:30:25 AM
Quote from: "heartphantom"
to prove what?

Prove the hoax. Specifically, the presence of (imo) a hoax court.

If we prove it, that means it's possible, which means anyone could do the same. This may have some major importance in regards to the come back. Makes sense to me.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is this: IF MJ wants us to prove it... why is he trying SO HARD to make it nearly impossible to prove? And why send Jermaine to shake us off the trail with his "not a hoax" comments? We already have little credibility, no one listens to us as it is. Why not leave well enough alone? Why discourage us further if he needs us to prove it?

It's contradictory so I'm left with no clear direction as this juncture.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: MJonmind on June 02, 2011, 12:45:49 PM
I kinda think too, that MJ and his team need to do some more fine tuning giving clues and confidence balanced with shaking most followers off the trail--delicate. My question is if TS really wants people thinking/discussing NWO and how powerful and dangerous they are, does that not signal TPTB's bloodhounds right over to us, checking our posts. (Who are all those guests anyway?)  It's not like we all meet in a bug-free, sound-tight room like Maxwell Smart's boss and him. You have Donald Trump twice really stressing how smart Michael is, and Kathy Hilton specifically saying how powerful MJ is. Pretty loud and clear, or are they playing an intimidation game with the big boys. The FBI are supposed to be involved, and IMHO they are connected with the CIA and big US government so how could they be good guys. As for MJ staying away in hiding and only coming out if we connect all the dots and "get" what he wants us to, that's like God saying Jesus will only come back when everybody on earth has heard. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. If that's the case, since we have limited human abilities, then this beautiful fabulous hoax will simply unravel, disintigrate and be perpetuated by a few toothless grannies (gramps) 30 to 50 years into the future. Naw, ain't gonna happen. I really think TS is just saying that to pressure us to put our thinking caps on, artistic license and all that. We have to read between the TS lines a bit. I really do think TS wants us to take the time to like heartphantom and MJFAN7 have just done, rehash previous posts of his. It's so much more fun to do quick superficial interpretations of new bits we see/read.

(picture 2 little guys perched on each of my shoulders) On the other hand, there is sadly a voice saying that all the clues and even the BAM part at the end of TII is part of a program of immortality and living on forever that MJ is instituting--a promise with no intention of fulfilling it with an actual comeback but giving us empty hope, starting a myth/legend/cult, etc. "It's all just good business", he says. :cry: Could TS be kind and cruel at the same time? Afterall MJ doesn't really owe us anything, and has given all his life, has dealt with the pressures of unpleasant press and grabbing fans all his life. If that's true, that would cause me personal pain at the time I have wasted here then, but it would be my own choice. Sorry, I'm again weighing everything, and just don't know what to believe/think.  errrr  geek/
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: PureLove on June 02, 2011, 03:21:11 PM
I think we all should need to slown down and get some rest. If this is a take over, it may get longer than we expected and the BAM might have postponed. Maybe that is the reason why the clues stopped and TS stopped posting. I'm pretty sure that everything will be up again with the trial. TS will be posting again. This is not going to last forever. Let's be patient all together and keep the faith.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: Its her on June 02, 2011, 05:47:20 PM
Quote from: "MJonmind"
I kinda think too, that MJ and his team need to do some more fine tuning giving clues and confidence balanced with shaking most followers off the trail--delicate. My question is if TS really wants people thinking/discussing NWO and how powerful and dangerous they are, does that not signal TPTB's bloodhounds right over to us, checking our posts. (Who are all those guests anyway?)  It's not like we all meet in a bug-free, sound-tight room like Maxwell Smart's boss and him. You have Donald Trump twice really stressing how smart Michael is, and Kathy Hilton specifically saying how powerful MJ is. Pretty loud and clear, or are they playing an intimidation game with the big boys. The FBI are supposed to be involved, and IMHO they are connected with the CIA and big US government so how could they be good guys. As for MJ staying away in hiding and only coming out if we connect all the dots and "get" what he wants us to, that's like God saying Jesus will only come back when everybody on earth has heard. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. If that's the case, since we have limited human abilities, then this beautiful fabulous hoax will simply unravel, disintigrate and be perpetuated by a few toothless grannies (gramps) 30 to 50 years into the future. Naw, ain't gonna happen. I really think TS is just saying that to pressure us to put our thinking caps on, artistic license and all that. We have to read between the TS lines a bit. I really do think TS wants us to take the time to like heartphantom and MJFAN7 have just done, rehash previous posts of his. It's so much more fun to do quick superficial interpretations of new bits we see/read.

(picture 2 little guys perched on each of my shoulders) On the other hand, there is sadly a voice saying that all the clues and even the BAM part at the end of TII is part of a program of immortality and living on forever that MJ is instituting--a promise with no intention of fulfilling it with an actual comeback but giving us empty hope, starting a myth/legend/cult, etc. "It's all just good business", he says. :cry: Could TS be kind and cruel at the same time? Afterall MJ doesn't really owe us anything, and has given all his life, has dealt with the pressures of unpleasant press and grabbing fans all his life. If that's true, that would cause me personal pain at the time I have wasted here then, but it would be my own choice. Sorry, I'm again weighing everything, and just don't know what to believe/think.  errrr  geek/

You said a mouthful afraid/ , but I'll just reply to the 3 items I enlarged, to cheer you up.  :)

And I want to say, too, PLEASE don't get apprehensive about all the "V"s (visitors). Such a huge group showing up at once :o , it HAS to be the first wave of the Great PuppetMaster (leaving a trail of M & Ms, everywhere!!), leading  them here to become full fledged BeLIEvers!! bounce/  

This can't be The Greatest Show On Earth, besting P.T. Barnum's shenanigans, when only a few thousand  :?  people are in the seats, WATCHING ;) ...

MJ is a Global Icon, and the Greatest Entertainer Who Ever Lived 8-) . In 2011, with ALL the tools that Barnum didn't even HAVE for drawing crowds, It is UNTHINKABLE  :x  that millions won't be WATCHERS, still getting in on some of the show, way before the BAM. I cannot see "I Love You More", Michael Jackson, leaving ANYone of his fans out of this. :D  He's so sweet!
 bearhug  

MJ DOES owe us something.  suspicious// HE PROMISED us a BAM.  mj_bad/ He said to "Keep Watchin!" He said the best was yet to come! He said, to just wait till he gets through, because he's BAD--you KNOW it :!:  He is NOT going to KOP-out ( :lol: pun intended, whether he's FBI or King of Pop), and just go do his life, in a sulk :x , because not enough people understood what he was trying to do!!!!! He is excited about this, too! :mrgreen:

You know ;) , it is NOT the audience's job to gather the crowd at the circus, (well, maybe to bring a guest)---But, it is the  bow/ MADMAN behind the curtain's job to create enough commotion and colored lights to call people out of their comfy boring houses. lolol/  lolol/

This reminds me a LOT of the movie, Something Wicked This Way Comes!!! Not because MJ is wicked, in the evil sense, but because of all the  bounce/ "crackling" in the air bounce/ , like in the movie, when the eerie Carnival  afraid/ comes to town! SOMETHING  mj_dance/ is going to happen in a good way, with MJ being so wickedly mysterious and mischievous, these last two years...He's NOT trying to hurt us :) ; it is MJ MAGIC. Instead of pulling a rabbit out of a hat, MJ is pulling all of us out of a twisted rabbit hole of his  8-) creation!!! It is going to be great, I just know it!!

BAM :!:  mj_dance/

You're right, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. But a really wise person said once, "You CAN make him very, very thirsty".  geek/  mj_dance/

Reading TS again, I think, is a great idea. Then we will know exactly where to send people with questions---right to the pertinent thread. TS isn't exactly light reading... ;)  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: One really MUST read him in context. AND, now read him with new "Hoaxing for two years, eyes". :o  8-)

Btw, there are people in this community who are typing words in their posts in upper and lower case letters, indiscriminately, with no rhyme or reason that makes sense (to errrr  me), let alone with MJ's direction, with a hoax hint in mind. This is HIGHLY awkward to read, & confusing to people who are reading TS, and searching for hidden hints from MJ(??). When "TS"  does it, the caps form a word or phrase or idiom, or demonstrate intelligent hoax purpose. He wants us to get all his clues and thoughts, or why bother? :)  This may be one way (in the past) he meant for us to read between the lines... albino/  If you spot something real, you KNOW ;)  it. Kinda cool. bounce/

I lied :oops:  :P , I have to say this, too. The FBI are good guys, pretty certain. The other guys have government oversight, but I think the FBI are actually independent of everyone. Seems like I read that. I'll have to look this up... The  suspicious// other guys are used against them, to take them out, when one or a group of them stumble upon a major U.S. Government evil. Hmmm...how many agents died at Waco, from friendly fire??

Someone showed me a book once, that an FBI guy had written. It said on the cover, "If you are holding this book, I am dead."  :shock: (or something equally compelling) He explained in the book what he knew and why he would be killed.

And, he WAS dead, afraid/  by then!!! My friend said she couldn't put it down, but I was too busy then to read it. I'll ask my friend about it, again. :?  The FBI is probably the most cerebral of ALL Law Enforcement. 8-)  They are cool.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on June 02, 2011, 09:23:23 PM
Quote
If we prove it, that means it's possible, which means anyone could do the same.
agreed but to whom serves the fact that anyone could see this is a hoax?
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on June 02, 2011, 10:00:48 PM
Quote from: "heartphantom"
Quote
If we prove it, that means it's possible, which means anyone could do the same.
agreed but to whom serves the fact that anyone could see this is a hoax?

Anyone who would bring litigation in regards to it after the fact? Just a guess.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: heartphantom on June 02, 2011, 10:17:31 PM
I see what you mean, but i believe those who want to bring litigation in regards to this faked death are already legally covered in their claims with the civil status papers that prove "death", they cannot be told by the Judge " well, you didn't doubt the official papers, you didn't start an investigation by your own to see they were fake, so you can't claim anything".
the fact that these legal papers are fake are law responsability of those who officially empower that papers  and not of civils. i'm not sure my english covered what i meant to explain here but i guess yyou'll understand my point.
Title: Re: TIAI April 11
Post by: bec on June 02, 2011, 10:26:36 PM
Yeah I do and you're right heartphantom. Thanks for the good point, it's comforting actually.
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