TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[Jos]

@ TS yes, but persons are emotional creatures, right? As is Michael.
I can't see MJ will be so cold blooded and heartless.


So, IF there was a real corpse, there must be Feds involved in the hoax. And then indeed no one can blaim MJ.
Ok, fine with me.

... Well TS you clearly are trying to confuse us here to keep us busy and working on it to try to get to discover it.. or not with the theories of a dummy and/or a corpse being used while heading to UCLA, why do I think that way?:

A) Because you have used the word "WHAT was on the stretcher" where "WHAT" means "IT" and I would never take a corpse as a "THING" but as a dead body (at least in spanish) still a person without breathing, I would always use the word "IT" for a dummy only. ...

No intentional confusion.  Someone else on this thread interpreted the word "what" to mean that it WAS a corpse; all a matter of interpretation.

I presume that I am that person, sorry.

[bec]

We can go back a step and regard the 911 call.

IF the 911 call was real THEN the paramedics were also real. Because when you call 911 it begins a process of emergency response which is obligatory by law.

However,

IF the 911 call were staged, it stands to reason that the paramedic team was also staged (scripted). You can only get real paramedics if a real distress call goes out (or if one is prearranged to be stationed at a post).

We will recall that the 911 call did not make it to police scanners. We know this because the scene was devoid of media/photographers besides Ben's team. Also, very few gawkers were at the scene. Yes a handful were present, but not the scene you could expect if the info went out over scanners, which are public record for anyone who has a CB/short wave radio. You figure, they spent ~45 min at the scene. TONS of time for anyone even across the county to show up and "check it out". There are people who make their living off monitoring these scanners and using the info to snap pics and sell them to news sources.

Since the call never made it to police scanners, I think it is a logical conclusion to draw that the 911 call was staged (ie not sent through usual dial-9-1-1 channels).

Additional supporting evidence that the call was staged were some of the anomalies in the convo on the call. The caller never states that the patient isn't conscious, the operator "offers" that info. The operator hangs up prior to emergency team arriving.

If the call was staged, another logical conclusion to draw from this is that the paramedic team was also prearranged. Prearranged paramedic team=everyone is in on it (short of perhaps the fire chief who's responsibility may be to remain with the fire truck during a medical distress call).

I agree it is not logical to conclude that MJ did not prearrange this portion of the hoax as to leave Day One up to chance is EXCEEDINGLY risky. If the immediate players are not all aware what is going on, the hoax could have been found out from the get go and then where would that leave him? 20+ years of planning down the tube?

Additionally supporting the idea that the paramedic team was prearranged, how could it be ensured that a team of paramedics not in on it ahead of time would concede to Murray that the "obviously" dead corpse go to UCLA instead of to the morgue? What if they refused as the idea was preposterous? What if there was bitter arguing? What if the leader of the paramedic team called his superiors? What if he put his foot down and said NO WAY JOSE??

And again, as someone stated earlier, we have the ambulance backing out of the driveway, which is super dooper questionable, as this is just not how it is done under any circumstances. And as no one has brought up, the doors of the ambulance needed to be SHUT before entering UCLA, and we see them wide open as the paramedics wheel the stretcher into the ER. A professional paramedic team would shut these doors this as protocol. Ambulance doors are not left wide open upon completing delivery at the ER. There is a great deal of sensitive, expensive equipment in there and standard operating procedure is that doors get SHUT once the patient is unloaded. There's 4 guys there. All 4 are not needed to push the stretcher. This is one reason there are always more then 2 paramedics attending. One person needs to be loose so they can cover tasks such as this which are necessary and normal.

So if you follow the trail of bread crumbs, I believe we can conclude that the paramedic team is prearranged. Key people in key places. One of those key people must be in a position of authority at LAFD to ensure that the prearranged team is the one who responds. It has to be someone in authority as the call was staged and in order to get a response to a staged call, a superior at LAFD has to approve the team being dispatched. A paramedic team can't just elect to go galavanting around LA in an ambulance "just because" they feel like it.

And again, IF the paramedic team is prearranged, there is no need to "fool" them with a real corpse.

[Andrea]

I must agree with your logic once again bec.  IF the 911 call wasn't real then a REAL emergency response isn't likely.  We know there was an ambulance used to stage the photo - so we can reason that the same one was used for June 25.  The photo itself (on the surface) shows the patient was not a hospice-type patient.

Obviously there is something about Blount - we are to believe he wasn't scheduled for that shift but if he was part of the plan then re-arranging his schedule makes sense. 

TS:

The hoax was planned with 3 layers of protection:
#1 Have everyone be in on the hoax, who is planned to be most directly working with the body.
#2 Have a real patient, just in case someone gets in the mix who was not originally planned to be there.
#3 If all else fails, have the FBI on standby to keep quiet anyone who might find something out that they were not intended to know.

Point #3 - theoretically with the FBI on hand to keep people quiet if need be - that argument works with a dummy too.  See a dummy?  No you didn't.  Ok, understood.

Point #1 would include the paramedics.  Also doctors and coroner.

Just a random thought - if a dummy was used and someone at UCLA saw it was a dummy who wasn't supposed to, that person could've been reasoned with that it was a decoy, for MJ's privacy he was brought somewhere else.  On that day, with all that confusion, how would an unplanned witness know what's really going on?  I realize this might sound silly.

TS, I realize that you may be playing devil's advocate in regards to the corpse theory.  If that's the case then you can see some of us are trying hard to debunk it. 

[emulik]

wow, so many sharp minded people here! I like your interpretations, although, sometimes it is hard to stay on track with so much reading  :icon_geek:
My humble personal opinion is that there were both real corpse and dummy ( due need of situation).
 I believe that real corpse was used with special agreement of involved dying person.

[InPotencyToYourAct]

Just a note:

the word alleged can be considered a hedge word (hedging on the meaning of a statement).
It can be a form of media protection against legal repercussions.
Statement analysis shows hedge words can be used to avoid responsibility and evade the truth.

sources:
grammar.about.com/od/tz/g/verbhedterm.htm
deceptionanalysis.com/hedge_words.html

[Jos]

I must agree with your logic once again bec.  IF the 911 call wasn't real then a REAL emergency response isn't likely.  We know there was an ambulance used to stage the photo - so we can reason that the same one was used for June 25.  The photo itself (on the surface) shows the patient was not a hospice-type patient.

Obviously there is something about Blount - we are to believe he wasn't scheduled for that shift but if he was part of the plan then re-arranging his schedule makes sense. 

TS:

The hoax was planned with 3 layers of protection:
#1 Have everyone be in on the hoax, who is planned to be most directly working with the body.
#2 Have a real patient, just in case someone gets in the mix who was not originally planned to be there.
#3 If all else fails, have the FBI on standby to keep quiet anyone who might find something out that they were not intended to know.

Point #3 - theoretically with the FBI on hand to keep people quiet if need be - that argument works with a dummy too.  See a dummy?  No you didn't.  Ok, understood.

Point #1 would include the paramedics.  Also doctors and coroner.

Just a random thought - if a dummy was used and someone at UCLA saw it was a dummy who wasn't supposed to, that person could've been reasoned with that it was a decoy, for MJ's privacy he was brought somewhere else.  On that day, with all that confusion, how would an unplanned witness know what's really going on?  I realize this might sound silly.
TS, I realize that you may be playing devil's advocate in regards to the corpse theory.  If that's the case then you can see some of us are trying hard to debunk it.

I would buy it Sounds logic to me

[bec]

Additionally, pulled out of the memory banks, the LAFD had some sort of Twitter/blog/equivalent online where their days schedule was posted as per normal; calls they attended, etc. In the weeks following 6/25/09, this record was accessed by a hoaxer and shared on the forum. MJ's emergency never made it onto that schedule. No LAFD response to Carrolwood or anywhere else was recorded for the early afternoon of 6/25/09. Again, this is just from memory, and I would have no idea how to re-access this info. Those were the days before I knew how to take a screenshot,  much less thought it necessary to do so. I had no idea then what I was getting into now.

So it can be disregarded as evidence, since I can't prove it, but considering I saw it and remember it, it has gone into the big mixing pot out of which has resulted in my pet theories today.

If this were a real emergency response and a real dead body, it would have been recorded like every other real call on LAFD log.

So again, who is an alleged real dead body supposed to fool? What's the motive?

Once at UCLA, if they REALLY needed a corpse, there's plenty to be had within the walls of the hospital, completely erasing the trouble and risk of getting one INTO Carrolwood in order to transport it out of there.

HOWEVER, what's the chances of finding and procuring a dead body on 6/25/09 that looks enough like MJ to masquerade as his body for personnel not in on the hoax? Even if the facial features don't match (people can be convinced that stage makeup results in MJ's public appearance), what's the chances that someone of the right age, body type/size, gender, and race died close enough to noon on 6/25/09 of some cause that doesn't reveal itself on the surface (stabbing, gunshot, other injury) to be accepted by ER staff operating under the premise that this is a patient who recently died of Propofol intoxication/heart failure?

TS, I think you, yourself laid out those statistics over a year ago. Long odds to be sure.

If we are going to dismiss all of these concerns by saying "well the FBI was in charge and they made it all work" then why even bother with all the 911 call/ambulance/paramedics/UCLA docs in the first place? Why can't the FBI just make it so that MJ "died" and that's that? No one needs to see the show that occurred on 6/25/09. Who's supposed to be fooled by all this if the FBI is in charge??

The Media, the Public, and the FANS, that's who, and a dead body isn't necessary to fool any of them.

So again, we lack motive for the trouble of a real corpse.

[Jos]

HOWEVER, what's the chances of finding and procuring a dead body on 6/25/09 that looks enough like MJ to masquerade as his body for personnel not in on the hoax? Even if the facial features don't match (people can be convinced that stage makeup results in MJ's public appearance), what's the chances that someone of the right age, body type/size, gender, and race died close enough to noon on 6/25/09 of some cause that doesn't reveal itself on the surface (stabbing, gunshot, other injury) to be accepted by ER staff operating under the premise that this is a patient who recently died of Propofol intoxication/heart failure?

And don't forget Rigor Mortis stands in within the first 2 to 6 hours after the patient deceased.

[hopi]

And again, IF the paramedic team is prearranged, there is no need to "fool" them with a real corpse.

That's right, but as TS said, only if nothing changes unexpected ( shift changing...)

[katy (MJFAN7)]

I also assumed when TS said "what went to ULCA" instead of "who went to ULCA" he was talking about a dummy. He could have even said "who/what" but because he only said "what went to ULCA" I was assuming he was talking about an inanimate, lifeless object. I would never refer to a dead body as "what". I do believe the dummy theory is very plausible. I've been to a madame tussauds wax museum, and those are spot on. With the special effects/technology we have today, I'm very sure they could make a "dead" MJ out of wax. However in this case I do believe paramedics would have to be in on it... unless the FBI or someone who was in on the hoax with authority told the paramedics that they were going to have dummy/wax version of MJ to confuse paparazzi while MJ's real body was at a different hospital (when actually MJ's real body was in Bahrain (or wherever)).  :icon_question: :Pulling_hair:

[curls]

If we are going to dismiss all of these concerns by saying "well the FBI was in charge and they made it all work" then why even bother with all the 911 call/ambulance/paramedics/UCLA docs in the first place? Why can't the FBI just make it so that MJ "died" and that's that? No one needs to see the show that occurred on 6/25/09. Who's supposed to be fooled by all this if the FBI is in charge??

The Media, the Public, and the FANS, that's who, and a dead body isn't necessary to fool any of them.

So again, we lack motive for the trouble of a real corpse.

I just went for a long walk to give this corpse thing another assessment - and I rejected it once again!

Along the lines of what bec said above, I came to the conclusion that there was no need to go through the whole 911 call, paramedics, ambulance, UCLA palaver in order to achieve a perfectly good death hoax.  All the other parts like dodgy doc Murray, drugs, trial etc could have happened with a simple 'Murray found MJ dead and the body was picked up by the coroner' scenario.

So, I'm left asking WHY did MJ decide to 'die' this way, with all the accompanying problems of corpses, dummies or whatever, when it wasn't needed - and I conclude the events of 25th June were done this way for show, spectacle, drama, attention - ILLUSION.

And look how successful this decision was, here we are, hoaxers 3 and a half years on STILL unable to work out just how he pulled it off!

Can anyone come up with a better reason for kicking off the hoax the way he did?

[Sarahli]

... continuing on my last post ...

Notice also that many things were done, to confuse the appearance of the patient.

Blount: “he had an IV attached to his leg”, a “nasal cannula … attached to his nose”, “a condom catheter attached to him”; “and all of that was in place, when” Blount “first saw Mr. Jackson”; and Blount “described Mr. Jackson as being very pale and very thin”
{~0:50, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login; see also ~12:00, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}

“[Senneff:] The patient was dressed with pajama bottoms, a pajama top; the top was open, the patient was wearing a surgical cap, or something similar, covering his hair; and he appeared to be underweight to me.” {~9:15, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}

Edit: also a strap going under the chin, and around behind the ears and head (but don't ask me to find that one, maybe someone else can find it).

“[Senneff:] … his eyes were open, they were dry, and his pupils were dilated.”
{~3:45, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}

“Richard Senneff testified when he arrived at MJ's house and saw MJ, he looked like a hospice patient – extremely frail.” {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}

Edit: also a strap going under the chin, and around behind the ears and head (but don't ask me to find that one, maybe someone else can find it).

Yes indeed TS it is time consumming to back things up with hard evidence so maybe that I can help you here a tiny bit  :icon_lol: in the following video they are talking about this^^: from 3:56 to 4:39 they are describing what a nasal cannula is:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAbck-_idoc&feature=autoplay&list=SP8B911E82F130FD13&playnext=2[/youtube]

[Sarahli]

I think the 911 call serves the numerology and therefore it was essential to have one placed at that time 12:21 which proves combined with other points that it's a hoax. So as I see it as much as things had to be as real as possible, it was necessary to leave clues pointing to this being hoax, it had to be taken into account. Therefore the whole scenario is as such because of this. So if you need a 911 call you also need what follows when you call that number in real life.

[ellyd]

To make it easier for everybody to get on the loop back and fully understand the impact, a staged 9II may be well explained through a staged 911 call and consecutive events. Numerology is a structuring ladder tool in this, not a purpose, IMO.

[curls]

@Sarahli, I thought about all the numbers/times etc while on my brainstorming walk earlier!  I decided they could have been placed in ANY scenario, not simply the one we were presented with.  Also as long as numbers/times etc were reported and documented, and therefore available to be referenced later, it really doesn't matter whether the events actually took place or not, and at those times or not.

Is that similar to what you mean @ellyd, by 'numerology is a structuring ladder tool in this'?

Increasingly today I'm thinking ILLUSION!