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[suspicious mind]

Hmmmm, some in my family are JW's and I have never heard of those monitors. Looks to me as if they were handlers instead, but that aside.

Mike didn't want to be anyone's slave anymore, he broke free from that in the 80's. Being a dedicated JW is also slavery, if you are not even able to make your own decisions in life. Faith has nothing to do with living up to rules that some men have come up with, it comes from within yourself. All people should be able to do whatever they want in life, as long as they respect other's lives as well. We don't need men in dresses or 10 commandments to tell us what is good and what is evil, every human being is very capable of seeing that difference themselves. We should all be able to believe whatever we want, without boundaries. I believe Mike believes that as well, and that that is the reason he left the JW's and that is also why I don't believe he converted himself to the Islam. In every religion there is a part that tells you what to do or what not to do. If you don't live up exactly to those rules, they have punishments for you... I call that slavery.

maybe this will sound stupid but it won't be the first time. ;) since you a little familiar with jw. there has been some stir in the news over the last year about the treatment recieved by people who leave the scientology sect (?) is there any indication that you know of that some type of retaliation could come from jw for leaving or that maybe something could have come at him from scientology after he was involved with lisa? just something i have wondered about . if you or anyone else has any idea. :?

I am not familiar with the scientology sect, so I can't answer that. I only know that one of my nephews was abandoned by his own mother, because he didn't want to be a JW. He has had many problems in life and last time I heard he had some serious issues because of this. They waited for this to happen, he was so vulnarable and broken down that now he is a devoted JW. They broke him to convert and enslave him. I know he would have never wanted this, but he wasn't strong enough and too many people let him down. I don't have contact with them, not for years. I have never felt love at that house, and they only supported the kids that lived up to their dreams and were devoted JW's. They don't like me, I am too free and I have my own opinion and I am nothing, a nobody in their eyes. So I don't have good experiences with JW's. I am not saying they are all like that, I am saying I witnessed some devoted ones and I didn't like what I saw. Same goes for some of the Islamic beliefs that suppress women's right or christian beliefs that say I go to hell because I'm not a christian and don't idolize some guy in a dress on a balcony. Religion is slavery, and faith or believing in God, or good and evil for that matter, has nothing to do with a religion. If God loves all people equally, he doesn't give a f**k if you go to church every Sunday. I think he would rather want you to do something useful for others in that time. Men built churches, not God. If we would all realize that actually what every person on this planet desires is to live in peace and health and respecting each other, it doesn't matter what you believe and that there is no need to get people to join your gang. God didn't invent religion, religion was created out of greed and the hunger for power (religion causes war, war creates $$$) and I am sure it was never God's intention for people to fight over it.

Hate me for this if you want but if you do, ask yourself why you would hate me for this.

"In time we hate that which we often fear."
~William Shakespeare~

Sousa :i do not hate you for what you feel about things.
honestly at the moment i am too busy hating a computor that won't let me highlight what i want to highlight! :evil:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[hope]

If  Ms. Katherine is a devoted JW like we have heard, we do have to give her credit for standing behind Michael and being there for her son (and La Toya, for that matter). The must have put some pressures on her too over the years, where Michael was concerned.  :?

[~Souza~]

Hmmmm, some in my family are JW's and I have never heard of those monitors. Looks to me as if they were handlers instead, but that aside.

Mike didn't want to be anyone's slave anymore, he broke free from that in the 80's. Being a dedicated JW is also slavery, if you are not even able to make your own decisions in life. Faith has nothing to do with living up to rules that some men have come up with, it comes from within yourself. All people should be able to do whatever they want in life, as long as they respect other's lives as well. We don't need men in dresses or 10 commandments to tell us what is good and what is evil, every human being is very capable of seeing that difference themselves. We should all be able to believe whatever we want, without boundaries. I believe Mike believes that as well, and that that is the reason he left the JW's and that is also why I don't believe he converted himself to the Islam. In every religion there is a part that tells you what to do or what not to do. If you don't live up exactly to those rules, they have punishments for you... I call that slavery.

Yes, you're right. Being devoted to a religion is "slavery" because you must  obey, respect the one you worship. You have to be grateful for what, who you were blessed with in this life and then get reworded for how you've done or get punished for what you've done.. You don't believe in this, so do you believe in the after life? If you do believe in it then haven't you ever been curious of whats the purpose in this life? What's your purpose? Why has God made 2 lives? Why is there good and bad? You said God made everyone equally, meaning we are all human beings, not the equality in what ever religion u believe in.

In religion you must obey "The men in dresses", not God. Men made those rules and who the hell tells you what you should or shouldn't do and even blackmail you?
Believing in the afterlife? Has that something to do with obeying your religion? I don't think so.

And again you are right. We don't need "men in dresses" ( I don't know what this has to do with your point, but I know who you are referring to) or 10 commandments to tell you whats good and evil. They don't tell you what to do they are more like a message, a guiding to help you in this life, and to teach you. They did not make it up. It's there for you, it has been sent by God you just have  believe it, of course if you have unquestionable proof that its made up by men then of course you will never have complete faith in it. If you don't have proof then thats when you will start looking more and more into it. And then when you really believe in something you have complete faith in it.

I'm just expressing my opinion to your post.. I hope you won't feel offended :)

I don't feel offended, I am just very happy I have a free mind. I could say many more things but I think it's better to go back on topic...

[Glinda]

[youtube:1tt5nhvv]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfbKrphheQk[/youtube:1tt5nhvv]

God does not live in a church with people telling you what to do.
( That's all I have to say)

[PinkTopaz]

[youtube:11v3pq84]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfbKrphheQk[/youtube:11v3pq84]

God does not live in a church with people telling you what to do.
( That's all I have to say)

Ha, good to see my favorite rock band!

Let me just say: I don't know if I'll ever come full circle on Joe or Katherine Jackson- and with her, it is because of this. I honestly think that if she had not been so deeply involved (you're right, Souza, I agree with your points about this type of religion being like slavery, and I'm sorry, but something has always seemed kind of distant about Katherine to me- not quite cold, but I think it comes from how deeply involved with all of this she was/is) MJ would have a better childhood even with Joe's.. actions and whatever other horrible crap he had to endure.. Its Her, my bud, your post was great, too, and I just can't stand the irony that one of the world's most open and free spirits had to be stifled and made to feel guilty like that- I'd better stop before my temper gets too overheated.

[Its her]

i will take the story witha grain of salt. consider the source  ect. ect.
can't help but wonder if the elders were so stricked what they had to say about that half donzen or so Christmas albums the boys put out. an don't forget the pics of the birhday parties for the babies.

@it's her: once again you have given me my giggle for the day . i love you

Christmas albums are just good business, and if there is one thing a large denomination appreciates, is "large denomination" tithes to their coffers...

THAT must have been the hardest thing of all, for the boys--to SING about something they'd been been told is wrong to be involved in.

Singing makes you so joyful. And then, you aren't even allowed  :evil:  :evil: so much as a candy cane....Talk about MIND CONTROL...Oh, and doesn't that song which goes, "Someday At Christmas..." just RIP your heart out and punch it flat a few times????????!! DANG.

The church "authorities" are like every other politician; they do what they want and have pat rationalizations for everything.  :?  :x

Say, if you want to giggle, check out some of the "outtakes"  from the Bashir video.(Depending on WHO you believe was in charge of actual production of that project... :roll:  what I mean specifically, is the scenes recognized as being shot by "MJ's people", which were not in the network aired version.)  What I found funny about this is that although I have had many employers and "bosses", and even had a crush on one, I have NEVER EVER :o lain my upper body across one of their thighs as they were seated on the floor.  :shock: :?  :lol:

It NEVER would have OCCURRED to me to be so familiar---even with a boss I had for 17 years  :o   :?  :P  :P  :P  :P  :!:

Granted, she was used to touching him all over, as his makeup gal, but IMHO, THIS display of familiarity was a bit much, unless they had something else going on... MJ didn't act like anything was out of the ordinary, either!!!!

That's

what's so  :o funny: K.Faye can lie down in his LAP, on video, but she can't hug his neck, and say "Happy Birthday" to him, privately :roll:  :?:  :?:

SHAMONE! :roll:

(the big fat kiss was my :oops:  :P  :P  idea, but, to her, I would say:

"DON'T even try it, K.F., to say you never thought of it, OR NEVER DID IT :lol:  :lol: ! :P

[suspicious mind]

ok so i guess i didn't imagine the kf thing. do you think that someone had her do it on purpose as some sort of damage control once they realized what the thing with gavin was gonna look like?if this chick was this way all of the time i can see that it would get on some peoples (wives) nerves. as for him not reacting , i just always think of the video when the fan climbs onto the cherry picker and the falling bridge incident, the show must go on.as for katherine i have felt what you mean. i only hope that is just the way she presents otherwise it would not make her behavior in all of this unusual. and if it is her normal way of being, well my heart doesn't want to go there. as for the Christmas albums you pretty much made my point ;) as for katherines involvement with the church distancing her coul be.

[Its her]

Karen Faye on MJ's Birthday
Preview: Re: Karen Faye on MJ's Birthday
suspicious mind wrote:
ok so i guess i didn't imagine the kf thing. do you think that someone had her do it on purpose as some sort of damage control once they realized what the thing with gavin was gonna look like?if this chick was this way all of the time i can see that it would get on some peoples (wives) nerves. as for him not reacting , i just always think of the video when the fan climbs onto the cherry picker and the falling bridge incident,

the show must go on.

as for katherine i have felt what you mean. i only hope that is just the way she presents otherwise it would not make her behavior in all of this unusual. and if it is her normal way of being, well my heart doesn't want to go there. as for the Christmas albums you pretty much made my point  as for katherines involvement with the church distancing her coul be.

Say, I did not think of that...K. Faye doing it as a strategy!! But, now that I do think about it, she would be probably the ONLY woman he would allow to hang all over him like that for fake. I just always thought there was something going on, there---she was in his very personal space. It was more of an "old lovers, comfort with each other's closeness", than an employee lounging all over her boss...Poor Mikey. The things he's had to do for the cameras---just to keep the rumors at bay. But, for a while, there, they WERE going out for dinners together, and she was always hanging on him---like someone who had already BEEN very VERY "familiar" with the man...

I also think you have hit it on the head AGAIN, with "the show must go on" mind set!!!. I LOVED the WAY MJ WAS with that boy. omg. Such calm, complete, professionalism, but iron fisted control!!! That was a moment to marvel, for sure. What a man! A hero! he protected that little goofball from certain injury. And it reminds me of the Oprah alarm incident---where he didn't bat an eyelash, even though it sounded like a fire alarm! He is SOOOOOOOOOOO unshakeable. Where does THAT come from????? I would LOVE some of that.

[angel]

Hmmmm, some in my family are JW's and I have never heard of those monitors. Looks to me as if they were handlers instead, but that aside.

Mike didn't want to be anyone's slave anymore, he broke free from that in the 80's. Being a dedicated JW is also slavery, if you are not even able to make your own decisions in life. Faith has nothing to do with living up to rules that some men have come up with, it comes from within yourself. All people should be able to do whatever they want in life, as long as they respect other's lives as well. We don't need men in dresses or 10 commandments to tell us what is good and what is evil, every human being is very capable of seeing that difference themselves. We should all be able to believe whatever we want, without boundaries. I believe Mike believes that as well, and that that is the reason he left the JW's and that is also why I don't believe he converted himself to the Islam. In every religion there is a part that tells you what to do or what not to do. If you don't live up exactly to those rules, they have punishments for you... I call that slavery.

maybe this will sound stupid but it won't be the first time. ;) since you a little familiar with jw. there has been some stir in the news over the last year about the treatment recieved by people who leave the scientology sect (?) is there any indication that you know of that some type of retaliation could come from jw for leaving or that maybe something could have come at him from scientology after he was involved with lisa? just something i have wondered about . if you or anyone else has any idea. :?

I am not familiar with the scientology sect, so I can't answer that. I only know that one of my nephews was abandoned by his own mother, because he didn't want to be a JW. He has had many problems in life and last time I heard he had some serious issues because of this. They waited for this to happen, he was so vulnarable and broken down that now he is a devoted JW. They broke him to convert and enslave him. I know he would have never wanted this, but he wasn't strong enough and too many people let him down. I don't have contact with them, not for years. I have never felt love at that house, and they only supported the kids that lived up to their dreams and were devoted JW's. They don't like me, I am too free and I have my own opinion and I am nothing, a nobody in their eyes. So I don't have good experiences with JW's. I am not saying they are all like that, I am saying I witnessed some devoted ones and I didn't like what I saw. Same goes for some of the Islamic beliefs that suppress women's right or christian beliefs that say I go to hell because I'm not a christian and don't idolize some guy in a dress on a balcony. Religion is slavery, and faith or believing in God, or good and evil for that matter, has nothing to do with a religion. If God loves all people equally, he doesn't give a f**k if you go to church every Sunday. I think he would rather want you to do something useful for others in that time. Men built churches, not God. If we would all realize that actually what every person on this planet desires is to live in peace and health and respecting each other, it doesn't matter what you believe and that there is no need to get people to join your gang. God didn't invent religion, religion was created out of greed and the hunger for power (religion causes war, war creates $$$) and I am sure it was never God's intention for people to fight over it.

Hate me for this if you want but if you do, ask yourself why you would hate me for this.

"In time we hate that which we often fear."
~William Shakespeare~

On my dad's side of the family, his mom and 6 out of 8 brothers and sisters were JW's.  My grandfather, my dad, and one of the sisters were the only exceptions.  Dad spent his entire life trying to convert them and debunking their beliefs.  Needless to say, family reunions were a pain.  Dad would always start a debate and ruin it for me. (Children are easily embarrassed at that age.) ;)   But that was just his way.  I also remember as a child looking at a copy of the JW bible and noticing all the omissions such as references to "heaven".  That always puzzled me, that kind of selective belief.  Anyway, this is just a comment....