Selective Belief... or my big rant

[Kuki]

@XspeechtlessX:I was afraid to say those words, but you did and you are so right! It's a no go for me too!

[GirlSaturday]

One more thing to consider in the spirit of open-mindedness as we discuss fake vs real...

Recap: Many forum members reject the idea of doubles. I get it I get I get it.  :lol:

What I don't get is how easily some hoax forum members here and elsewhere can believe in the tweets and forum posts from so-called friends, insiders and occassionally "MJ" himself. People can believe in and follow a fake MJ on twitter or a forum yet not believe in a real live double perfoming in concert.  That I really don't get.

Over the past 10 months many amazing things have occurred regarding false people and their false information.  Some of you may be unaware that there  was a period several months ago when trolls invaded  the forums and created all sorts of havoc. These people are tricky and very good at what they do.They would provide cryptic messages and leave myterious comments. Many forum members became excited and created all sorts of wonderful BAM dates afterward to follow them. Then there were the twitter accounts that had "MJ" in the name so fans were quickly believing that Michael Jackson was tweeting them personally. My favorite was when a "Michael Jackson" appeared on another forum and forum members started begging this person to PM them so that they could provide phone numbers to receive private phone calls. I witnessed these reactions.  It is not made up. Then there was the scary and dangerous period when forum members received PMs from people who offered to introduce them to MJ but requested secret meetings to get to know them first. A few people got sucked into that trick  and later  regretted it. Again I'm not making this up. If it weren't so blatantly sad, it might be considered comical. These were not just one or two people being tricked and hurt but dozens...maybe more.

 Here we remain discussing, debating and hopefully at some point just agreeing to disagree about doubles. I ask the magic question once more.. How is it so easy for many forum members to believe in fake MJs and his fake insider friends on forums and in twitter yet impossible to believe that MJ used doubles in concert?  :lol:

[XspeechlessX]

@XspeechlessX  Your post was lovely.  And i agree...  

All Michael ever wanted was to be loved and accepted..  just how he was...  warts and all!!  

And the vast majority of his fans and admirers do, i believe..  accept him just how he is!

Awwh thank you  
Nice to see someone agrees with me...

@Kuki.. thank you too . (:

L.O.V.E

[paula-c]

I am a fan of Michael, but I'm not a fan 'extremist' to give it some name, in this forum I have come across views and topics with which I agree, and do not read or not to comment for me enough. If you believe that Michael planned this long, how did all this square for this?, Dates, events and more. I disagree with people who say that Michael would not do one thing or another, how do we know?,. Do you know personally?, And I think with this I am not disrespecting the theme of double think they exist, maybe too much makeup or surgery, so I do not know.

When we discover that someone else shares our values, opinions, habits or hobbies we are happy and feel close to her. However, when he says or does something that contradicts our opinion, thought, beliefs or values we can feel distant, disappointed or dissatisfied.

[Loes]

I stopt advising people to look at this forum, just because I think when they see all those topics about doubles they must think we're nuts. There's The Official Double topic, but that seems not enough. Every day new topics about doubles come up and it's getting very annoying to me.
I never believed he used doubles (only decoy's like Navi).
All the pictures I looked at, I never saw anyone else but Michael Jackson himself, also at the O2 Arena.

Just 1 question: When Michael Jackson was alive Why noone, really noone, for all those years, ever doubted it was really Michael?
Using doubles for so long is a secret that can't be kept for so long IMHO.

[Sarahli]

I feel like this hoax has opened the Pandora's box...all subjects can be discussed. To me the most important is to not hurt Michael and to not be disrespecful. As long as this line is followed it's ok for me. Regarding the double theory I follow the thread but I don't post because I really have no idea fixed on this one and I feel like the interpretations go sometimes too far. I'm really speechless on this subject.
The first time I read it, it disturbed me because, like many, I said to myself well maybe it's real I don't really know MJJ. In a way it's true. I never met him, I never talked to him. But we have enough of him through his songs, his interviews, his humanitarian activities to have an idea of who he is and deep inside I have a strong feeling of love for him. I know for sure that it cannot be wrong, I know that Michael is a very good person and this is all I need to know. Whatever happens next, whatever the reason is for this hoax I'll be with him.

Now to me the most important thing is the why of this hoax ? I don't know if the double theory will help us to discover the truth, maybe, and for that reason it has to be investigated. Maybe we will have to wait until Michael's return to know the whole truth. Because to me the answer to the why is what will close this Pandora's box forever.

God bless you.

[DancingTheDream]

Its all for LOVE!

[Minamai]

I totally agree with you mykidsmun
A.M.O.R

[themjkiss]

I actually liked what raven had to say.  I think there is truth to it.  I don't think she intended to use those terms as a clinical diagnosis but more along the lines of trying to explain what is going on here.

 As for myself, I don't like being lumped under the heading of "fan." I like MJ...I like his music, I like the mystery of his life, I LOVE the drama and the fun of figuring him out.  I don't wait in lines for his music and I certainly DON'T have all his albums. (I did in highschool...well, most of them). He fascinates me like all the GREATS in history fascinate me and I actually prefer to speak of and mull over his shortcomings and flaws because I believe these types of things have a larger role in who we are and who we portray ourselves to be in the public.  So, I am not a "FAN" in the classical sense.  I don't refuse to see things because Michael (oooh ahhh) would never do that...and for the record, I'm usually the one telling everyone that the way you all think he is...how he is in public, how he has crafted his persona...this is a bunch of bull!  He was one of the biggest manipulators ever!  I've had my fair share of "fans" tell me not to use that word about him...but it's the truth!  He manipulated people for his own gain...not monetary, but for other reasons.  Say what you want and I will say it again...it's his short comings and his flaws that make him human and it's his acute awareness of these things and his ability to hide his shortcomings and portray himself to the public how he wanted to be percieved...that is genius!  It's never been done before to this extent and it will never be done again.  MJ was a master who created the role for himself as the MOST FAMOUS MAN IN THE WORLD.  Thanks everyone who had so many nice things to say.

Very well said, I agree. Michael is a imperfect human like all of us, which means he has flaws like us.  I know the public persona of Michael because it is so obvious for all of us to see, thus the purpose it for us to see what he wants us to see, and only what he wants us to see. Of course if we are being realistic about him, we know that there is the other part of his life the private part, in which is private for a reason, and I would bet that the private part of Michael is very different, it is the reality... I cannot boast that I know Michael because I do not, and I believe he had a myriad of issues, one being his facial features, at which he had the luxury of money to change it, his money affored him many things, including the drugs he chose to use. I do not believe anyone forced him to use the drugs, and do his plastic surgery, so that means he chose to do these things, and therfore is the one responsible,  for the repercussions that come with these decisions. This being said, I do not like the word fan myself, I prefer to say I admire Michael, or at least what I know of him so far, good or bad anyway.

It is said that if someone can accept the bad things about us, without judgement, and tries to help us better ourselves (if we want to be helped) is a true friend indeed.

[loveratheart4mj]

I'm at the end of my rope.  This forum has ceased it's usefulness for me in all the double theory silliness.  In reading thru all these posts and scratching my head, my first perplexing thought that comes to my mind is...why do so many people here have a hard time believing things written about MJ...I've heard many times people saying the familiar phrase..."just because its in print doesn't mean its the gospel"...or other such sentiments.  I've seen people bash so called "friends" of MJ, simply because someone posted a story or two about a revealing antidote they knew about MJ.  I've seen the all too holy "Michael could never do that" one to many times and have seen people say "I just can't believe that" but yet....I find it so surreal that everyone who is against any negative story about MJ, or any thing of a revealing nature, have absolutely no problem believing a sci fi story like doubles...It seems the stranger the story gets the more people are jumping on the band wagon, no questions asked, no research, no outreach to outside sources who have answers.

I myself have asked an old friend who works in theater and movie type makeup....LOL...everyone bypassed what I said...LOL.
I asked my father, who is an artist and photographer a few questions at the risk of looking foolish.
I have relied on my own art and Cosmetologist's background (non practicing Cosmetologist at this time...except on family and friends) and spoke with a woman who actually wears lace front wigs.
I consulted my cousin who works in a coroners office assisting in autopsies, and who before that worked in surgery rooms assisting the Doctors with surgeries (again, at the risk of looking silly).
consulted my own hubby who is a pharmacist (and doesn't like MJ) and family friends, two of which are practicing Anesthesiologists,
I emailed forest lawn myself on a few occasions (posted those responses)
and spoke to my step-uncle who is a Dentist about prosthetic teeth (I can't remember the last time I saw him in a family setting).

I can't deal with this selective belief anymore.  This isn't going anywhere...everyone wants to ooh and ahh about a few photos that look different from picture to picture even though we ALL know why MJ changed tru the years.  We toss out the fact our boy loved the body modification surgeries and had vitiligo and too easily blame his changing image on a "clone, doppelganger (what the F is that?)twin, double."  even though all the evidence you need about his changes is there... ask a photographer about perspective and how lighting changes a picture...go back and read what all MJ's surgeons say about his face, his skin...go back and look at other celebrities photo's and how they too take GOOD and BAD pictures. Read about what his friends say about his two voices he has...public and private and how he was using the deeper one more often later in life. (deffa cool moof)  The fact is, everyone wants MJ to be here, alive, so bad they are willing to throw LOGIC and truth out the window and resort to silliness...if it can explain all the bad things about MJ away and why the man they love changed so friggin much over the years and why he's not here anymore...why not?  but...at the same time, everyone is forgetting themselves and speaking so meanly about the "double" and have NO qualms about picking the "double" apart.  It's not a double and the man you are picking apart is your man, your hero, the father of his children and master of the moonwalk...THE MAN....Michael Jackson

I'll give it to you straight up.  MJ, our hero...he hated his face.  He was uncomfortable in his own skin...and just when the awkwardness of adolescence was over...vitiligo hit.  Put that together with being in the public eye and an abusive father and that is ALL the reason you need for why he changed himself so much and piled on the makeup.  But if believing in doubles to explain away his pain and the disturbed image of himself he had, makes you all feel better...than so be it.  I on the other hand like MJ the way he was.  A screwed up, loving, genius.  All geniuses in history were screwed up in some way or another, that's where the genius comes from and that is why there will never be another MJ.... You can thank his father for that.

RAH RAH REE!! I am standing up in GLEE!!! I totally agree with you. I have been so sick of all the double talk. I agree he may have used a ocassional decoy but not in doubles. I am sick to death of all the doppleganger stuff. I actually pushed myself away from MJHD site some because of those posts. I was sick of it. Thank you for this post! I loved it!! Michael i love you no matter what. No matter how no matter when. I just love you. PERIOD.

[Christiana]

To mykidsmum....

Can you hear it?

This is me.

Giving you a STANDING OVATION!

Well said.  :mrgreen:

I have never believed in the doubles theory. Never will.
I have never believed in the twins theory. Never will.
I have never believed in anything related to the Illuminati, NWO, etc. (not saying they don't exist---because I don't know if they do or not and I don't care. But IF they do, I don't think they have any involvement in whatever happened on June 25.) Never will.
I have never believed that Dave Dave is MJ on LKL. Never will.
I have never believed in a green screened funeral at FL. Never will.
I have never believed in the MJ-Jumping-Out-of-the-Coroner's Van video. Never will.
I have never believed that MJ's "body" moved in the helicopter (because if he is dead, he can't move...and if he's alive...he would NOT need to be in that helicopter!). Never will.
I have never believed in many other things that a lot of beLIEvers seem to cling to, simply because I don't need to, and I never will.

Know what I DO believe in?
Michael Jackson

I also believe that none of the other items listed above need to be true in order for this hoax to be real. I also believe that if you DO believe in those things, hey, more power to ya. I will not disrespect you. And that which irritates me will make me stronger if I just avoid those threads.    And believe me when I say, that's something I do often.

What I see as the biggest challenge for most of us, and I've said this before, is that there are simply limits to what kind of "investigation" can actually be done solely via the Internet. There is only so much information that can be found online. So as someone else has said, we've turned over pretty much all the stones. And in a lot of ways, we've hit a brick wall, in my opinion. And the result of that is re-hashing of posts we've dissected all too many times, and the exploration of topics which are shaky, at best. And it has made me want to leave the community too a time or two.

Problem for me is that even though I'm pretty sure Michael is alive, I'm not 100% convinced. I keep hoping that by staying in touch here and with my own digging online, that eventually I'll find that one bit of information that tips the scales for me...that convinces me...one way or the other. Because then, and only then, will I find any peace. The truth is that if I knew for sure, with no doubts, that Michael is alive, I wouldn't need to come here anymore. I'd be content because I know the truth. And if I knew he was dead, with no doubts, I'd feel the same, because I've really already accepted that he could be gone and made my peace with that possibility.

My best advice for everyone is what I continue to say...don't search for evidence of the hoax....SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH. It will make you more objective. Use logic. Use reason. Use discretion. Be rational. Be thoughtful. And hey, being hopeful doesn't hurt either. And remember this: if Michael is alive, we can hurt him just as much as help him by what we say in this community, and in what we do. And if he is dead, there are a lot of "theories" and "evidence" that could be considered disrespectful to Michael, his memory, and his legacy. And since his children are part of his legacy, it's important to remember that one day they WILL read this stuff (if they don't already), so IF he is dead, they should be a very important consideration in what we say here.

Respect to all.

[whatyourheartsays]

I know Michael Jackson since I'm 12...I never saw doubles or had the feeling he was using a twin...

I only saw a suffering man, trying to deal with an image he hated, so much loved coming from the outside, but no love for himself inside. This is why we saw him experience so many faces, so many make up, it was a never ending job to try to love what he saw in the mirror.
Why should we need a double theory to pictures that don't look the same ?

I don't consider Michael being a nice person that "would never do such thing". I know he could be manipulating people to get what he wanted . But hey, with the life he had, it's extremly normal to manipulate people to get what ? To get the best, the get love...Extremly demanding father, public life with no private life, LOVING fans to satisfy, Business pressure about money, about law...all the sharks swimming around... Don't you think he HAD to manipulate people ? It's all about survive.

Michael had to fight all his life. I don't think it's strange to sometime use doubles to get a bit of private time. It's not strange to have his face changed. It's not strange. It's just about a HUMAN BEING trying to deal with all this. I think he did great ! Most of men would have been destroyed sooner.

I do not believe in the double theory. We really saw him SUFFER all those years. Saw his evolution, his fight, his success, his happines with his kids. He always did all this in the "day light", giving the best of himself, always. If he had any ways to escape all this during those years, don't you think he would have done it sooner ? He always faced the reality.

[mykidsmum]

Wow guys, I just finished reading thru what everyone posted.  I wanted to quote and say something about every one's post!  Amazing stuff!  I am absolutely thrilled that I posted my little rant in that I feel we all shared something here!  It takes a lot to open yourself up like a lot of you did.  I recently saw some outates from the Bashir documentary where MJ was talking about always being judged and how that affected him.  He said he would go to spend some time at some families house and the minute he walked tru the door, people would judge him...why is Michael Jackson HERE?  Why would HE want to be HERE? and MJ says so sadly..."I have to be somewhere...why NOT here?"  I've often caught myself in this type of thinking about him...pictures of Debbie for example...I catch myself saying..why her?  She's not that hot...and I catch myself and realize I am doing the same thing!  Why can't MJ shop at the thrift store, why can't he marry an average person, why can't he go to the bathroom and shower and shave like the rest of humanity...LOL.  I can't imagine the life he lived where everything he did was scrutinized and questioned and I can only imagine how this contributed to his pain and need for extreme privacy.
Here is a little "find" I came across...I hope you all enjoy it.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

As for where we go from here...my friends...the media has done an excellent job of making Jermaine and Latoya out to be a bunch of quacks...they have worked on them for years.  Now when they say Murray is the fall guy and something big went down, we all laugh and turn away.  I think something big is here.  I think MJ was murdered and I think AEG and Sony had their hand in it.  Sony tried to get him once by supplying his financial records to the DA during his trial to help the prosecution prove financial motive behind keeping the family captive at never land.  With MJ rotting in jail (their hopes) they would have their hands on the other half of the catalog.  I think they just found a better way this time, and this time they don't need the other half of the catalog.  Keep putting down your thoughts!  You would be surprised how something that you don't think is important is very important to someone else and gets them thinking.  I may not be right about what I posted about AEG and SONY, but it's a brain storm.  What ever can get someone thinking and contributing.  Also, don't be afraid to post anything you find about MJ...you would be surprised at what leads people to research and what they too may find.

[somekindofsign]

A very good brain storm mykidsmum.
Sadly, that is one of the possible scenarios, to me.
One of the more possible and that makes easily more sense...

There are also other "simple" possibility to be alive, having xcaped from that.
Those two have been the two stronest feelings of possibilities from day one.

Very good link also. Thanks.

About this thread, I think it is being a little a silent isle.

[Nakiska]

Mykidsmum, you know what...I absolutely  agree with you!
I`ve never placed on Michael the expectation of the public image that he desired us to percieve him. Noone deserves that kind of pressure. God knows how many flaws and craziness that I have myself. Everyone is ''weird''. That is the thing that almost no one wants to accept: we are all screwed up one way or another. Ignorance is to crucify someone for simply beeing human.
Look at yourself in the mirror:  How many things you would like to change about yourself? How many secrets that you have that you want the world to NEVER know about. How many times you lied? How many situations you manipulated so that things would look good for you? Imagine now that you have the means to do all that. You have all the power and money to mold reality and yourself just like you always dreamed of doing. So there you have it...
Even a child instinctively knows how to manipulate others ( just think about a baby crying for his mother`s attention).
We are all manipulators. Some more, some less...
Bottom line...Michael is Michael with all his flaws, weirdness, genius, love, hate, lies, truths, manipulation, fears, hopes...
That is why I love Will You Be There.Its the most heartfelt song that I know. He was asking someone if he would still be loved when he showed his violence, his anguish, his fears, frustrations. Would he still be tolereted with all his burdens? Would someone still accept him if they knew that he was just a human trying his best to survive?
Or would this person prefer the fabricated character over ther real man? He was afraid of that answer I think. That's his tragedy in my opinion. He looked for love and acceptance from the outside so desperately only because he couldnt find that inside of himself.
And this is such a paradox, taking into consideration his pride and desire in depicting himself as a hero, a warrior, a king, a larger then life phenomenon. I guess pride is also a form of insecurity.
I can only love him knowing he is only human after all. Just like I am. Not a super human. Just human.