Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

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Offline Ninanina

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Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 06:02:07 AM
I don't feel completely comfortable posting this, because it's different to look at a still pic, than looking at an animation.
However, I have to discuss this:
There are at least three ambulance pics - not one. Some know it, others don't.
But these three pics were shot in a row, they all are shot from different angles, so the distances between 'objects' and shadows are different.

In one of the shots, it looks like he opened his eyes! But not on the others. (The one without a logo on it)
It could be, that this is only caused by motion blur and due to the different angles!
But I'd like to know, what you see - pay close attention to his eyes.

At least this is a proof, that it was not the stage pic, that was used to photoshop this.
I am sure, these are real pictures, but they still can be a fake (double, from earlier years, or it IS him on June 25th and he just didn't die).
But they are certainly not photoshopped in the way Brian Oxman said.

[attachment=0:l2637y7b]ambulance_ani.gif[/attachment:l2637y7b]
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Offline Tink.I.Am

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 06:08:17 AM
hmmm they seem to be a bit open.. but if its a reaction made volontary or unvolontary... i dont know..
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Offline Ninanina

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 06:22:00 AM
I talked to a paramedic on the other board, and she said it was common, that dead people have their eyes open,
but it's not possible, that the eyelids move. I thought, maybe it's due to the CPR or something, but she ruled that out.
Of course, it's still possible, that he was alive in the ambulance and then later died at the hospital - Some of the latest stories said so.

So, if it's not real eye movement, it's because of the angle, lighting, motion blur...
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Offline Raven

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 06:25:51 AM
I agree, as I've mentioned before it appears as if on one picture his eyes are closed and on the other they appear to be slightly opened.

As it seems from your animation: one closed, one slightly opened focussing straight ahead, one slightly opened looking to the left
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Offline spike21

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 06:30:20 AM
What is the moving thing of the left ?
A luggage ?  :shock:
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MJ said : You\'re kickin\' with the wrong leg !
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8AXyD-vdo[/youtube]

Offline msteetee34

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 06:36:37 AM
His eyes look closed to me besides these photos aren't legit anyway.  These are old photo no way they are recent.  I believe these photos were taken when he was in his 30's from a previous trip to the hospital.  That's my personal opinion.
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the arabian nights

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 06:59:57 AM
i still think that it is a fake because i dont see you can get the angle from that position

also mike is younger by 20 years and his skin is different and his colour is beautiful but darker than it is presently.
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Offline Ninanina

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 07:24:51 AM
Quote from: "the arabian nights"
i still think that it is a fake because i dont see you can get the angle from that position

also mike is younger by 20 years and his skin is different and his colour is beautiful but darker than it is presently.

Why do you think they couldn't get that angle from their position?
I agree, that he looks younger and I also want to believe this pic is fake...

That's the full picture (or at least the biggest extract we got to see):


And that's a picture taken by 'ladymedic' from MJHD.net through the tinted side window of her ambulance - just as in Michael's case.
Only difference is, that the surrounding was dark and she didn't use a flash. It was shot in a closed dark room, not at day light. But that doesn't matter for the angle question.
Pretty much the same...
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the arabian nights

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 07:40:57 AM
i have made my comments in previous threads on the ambulance pic
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Offline spike21

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 07:53:07 AM
Quote from: "Ninanina"
Quote from: "the arabian nights"
i still think that it is a fake because i dont see you can get the angle from that position

also mike is younger by 20 years and his skin is different and his colour is beautiful but darker than it is presently.

Why do you think they couldn't get that angle from their position?
I agree, that he looks younger and I also want to believe this pic is fake...

That's the full picture (or at least the biggest extract we got to see):


And that's a picture taken by 'ladymedic' from MJHD.net through the tinted side window of her ambulance - just as in Michael's case.
Only difference is, that the surrounding was dark and she didn't use a flash. It was shot in a closed dark room, not at day light. But that doesn't matter for the angle question.
Pretty much the same...

The medical equipment is also pretty the same !   :mrgreen:
When you see the screen near the driver in some picture and see "gauge" (i don't know the exact term) near right man shoulder, we can only ask how design can be so different.
That "gauge" looks to have 15 to 20 years old... my grand mother got the same style on her balances ! haha
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

MJ said : You\'re kickin\' with the wrong leg !
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8AXyD-vdo[/youtube]

Offline Ninanina

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 08:01:05 AM
Quote from: "spike21"
Quote from: "Ninanina"
Quote from: "the arabian nights"
i still think that it is a fake because i dont see you can get the angle from that position

also mike is younger by 20 years and his skin is different and his colour is beautiful but darker than it is presently.

Why do you think they couldn't get that angle from their position?
I agree, that he looks younger and I also want to believe this pic is fake...

That's the full picture (or at least the biggest extract we got to see):


And that's a picture taken by 'ladymedic' from MJHD.net through the tinted side window of her ambulance - just as in Michael's case.
Only difference is, that the surrounding was dark and she didn't use a flash. It was shot in a closed dark room, not at day light. But that doesn't matter for the angle question.
Pretty much the same...

The medical equipment is also pretty the same !   :mrgreen:
When you see the screen near the driver in some picture and see "gauge" (i don't know the exact term) near right man shoulder, we can only ask how design can be so different.
That "gauge" looks to have 15 to 20 years old... my grand mother got the same style on her balances ! haha

Hm, to me it also looked old, but I have actually NEVER been in an ambulance in my 34 years (knock on wood...).
'ladymedic' says, the equipment isn't old. I think, she's not located in Los Angeles, btw.
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Offline spike21

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 08:19:21 AM
Got it !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

MJ said : You\'re kickin\' with the wrong leg !
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8AXyD-vdo[/youtube]

Offline Christiana

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 01:58:11 PM
Actually, this picture is a little bigger than the one posted above (it's a little wider, you see more of the paramedic on the right):



Well...poo...it's not displaying correctly...cutting off a bit on the right side. Sorry about that.

And this is the inside of ambulance 71...a screen shot of a video I made many months ago...

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Offline Ninanina

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 03:35:04 PM
It's exactly the same - not a display problem.
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Offline spike21

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 04:26:21 PM
i'll keep here what i was saying on the other topic ( viewtopic.php?f=19&p=143074#p143074 ).

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MJ said : You\'re kickin\' with the wrong leg !
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8AXyD-vdo[/youtube]

Offline DancingTheDream

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 04:41:39 PM
The ambulance window is tinted.. look at the colour of the paramedics arms.
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Offline Ninanina

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 05:02:34 PM
Quote from: "DancingTheDream"
The ambulance window is tinted.. look at the colour of the paramedics arms.
But the white on MJs mouth piece is pretty much 'white'.
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Offline DancingTheDream

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 05:07:20 PM
Quote from: "Ninanina"
Quote from: "DancingTheDream"
The ambulance window is tinted.. look at the colour of the paramedics arms.
But the white on MJs mouth piece is pretty much 'white'.


Good point.
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Offline msteetee34

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 13, 2010, 10:05:17 PM
Beside the eyes look at the difference between the equipment being used in the photo with MJ and the other photo posted with the anonymous person.  The equipment in the MJ photo look way old and outdated compared to the ambulances that are used now days.  That's another reason to believe the photo is old.
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Offline Christiana

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 14, 2010, 12:28:07 AM
Quote from: "Ninanina"
It's exactly the same - not a display problem.

It's not the same actually...the image I have on my computer shows more of the paramedic on the right hand side. But for some reason, when I post it, it cuts off the right side.
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Offline 2good2btrue

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 14, 2010, 01:00:37 AM
Some good points made.  But I always think about the fact the Chris Weiss, Ben Eventads other half , is a paramedic and could have easily "helped out" if you know what I mean.  There's no doubt this is a real picture taken inside a real ambulance, but the patient could have been anyone before the editing.  Have the ambulance paramedics from 71 ever been interviewed?????  It doesn't look like MJ's eyes have opened.  I think it's the angle.  And yes, it is common for some people or even animals to open their eyes  just after death, as they take that last breathe.  

Have you ever watched an operation in a Hospital??  The patients are under propofol, and have always got their eyes taped down during the surgery.  Is this because their eyes open???  A question for LADYMEDIC.....just a thought.  As always with L.O.V.E  xox
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Offline spike21

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 14, 2010, 02:42:33 AM
Is it a broken light on the car ?
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MJ said : You\'re kickin\' with the wrong leg !
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8AXyD-vdo[/youtube]

Offline LadyMedic

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 14, 2010, 10:25:44 AM
Quote from: "msteetee34"
Beside the eyes look at the difference between the equipment being used in the photo with MJ and the other photo posted with the anonymous person.  The equipment in the MJ photo look way old and outdated compared to the ambulances that are used now days.  That's another reason to believe the photo is old.
The MJ photo is NOT outdated. 100% is not. All ambulances are different inside. All of the equipment in that picture is very much current. I don't understand what people see as being old. Lifepak 12s are very new, the equipment they're using in general is all current (the ET tube, tube holder, veniguard, ETCO2, BVM, patches on the medics). Some of it my company uses now.

Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Some good points made.  But I always think about the fact the Chris Weiss, Ben Eventads other half , is a paramedic and could have easily "helped out" if you know what I mean.  There's no doubt this is a real picture taken inside a real ambulance, but the patient could have been anyone before the editing.  Have the ambulance paramedics from 71 ever been interviewed?????  It doesn't look like MJ's eyes have opened.  I think it's the angle.  And yes, it is common for some people or even animals to open their eyes  just after death, as they take that last breathe.  

Have you ever watched an operation in a Hospital??  The patients are under propofol, and have always got their eyes taped down during the surgery.  Is this because their eyes open???  A question for LADYMEDIC.....just a thought.  As always with L.O.V.E  xox
Ben is definitely NOT a paramedic. And he's a pretty crappy EMT from what I've heard him say. "8-10 minutes load and go". That's a bunch of junk. Ask any medic. Overall survival chances for cardiac arrest decline substantially after the first few minutes. It's irresponsible to "load and go with 8-10 minutes" for a cardiac arrest. Especially in this sense where they were going to presume. And I've had doctors tell me that if I haven't gotten any response, the patient isn't going to make it. Sure, you can get ROSC on random patients, but ROSC doesn't signify survival that far in to a code. It's just the medications. It very rarely can be sustained.

As for taping the eyes, while I don't know much about surgery because I work prehospitally, I do know some stuff. I had to do an OR rotation when I was in medic school where I did intubations and LMAs. I asked the anesthesiologists about this, and per them, it is just total preference. Some of the will, some won't. And it depends on the patient. If their eyes won't stay closed, they'll tape them. Sometimes all you need to do is close the lids and they stay shut. Other times they'll open again. One of the main reasons for taping the eyes is so they do not get dried out. (It's also to prevent cornea damage during the surgery, but obviously MJ wasn't having surgery.) I know some hospitals can have regulations about this kind of stuff, but where I was, it was the anesthesiologists decision.

And I have to say I do like what you're saying about the picture and the point I've been trying to make all along. Sure, this whole thing could be a hoax. But that does not mean that there is going to be error in everything they did. The ambulance photo, from the standpoint of a paramedic, is legit. As is the 911 call procedure. Does that mean it's MJ in the ambulance? No. But what they have done to the person/dummy/etc. is totally normal. And the equipment they're using is current.
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the arabian nights

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 14, 2010, 10:37:18 AM
are we just repeating ourselves? :?
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Offline NYMoonwalker

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 14, 2010, 10:45:31 AM
Thank you Lady Medic. This should clear a lot of things up. We're hearing it from someone who works in this field and is a beLIEver. If you guys still think the picture is fake..then I guess nothing is going to convince you otherwise.

NOW...that doesn't mean that I believe that is Michael on that stretcher. I don't. Neither does Brian Oxman  :lol:  That doesn't look like the O2 Michael, any of the This Is It Michaels, or any recent MJ for a matter of fact. He is much younger & Darker

So I say..Keep the faith  :ugeek:
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the arabian nights

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 14, 2010, 10:52:57 AM
but a photoshopped pix proves nothing

it does not prove he is alive nor that he is dead

the fact remains we did not see mike enter the ambulance or being transported in the ambulance and we have not seen him leave the ambulance, we do not seen him transported by helicopter or leaving the helicopter, we are told these things

he have not seen any body, not in the casket - we are just told things

since LAPD offer a taxi service for coffins we dont know anything
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 08:27:40 AM
I find the comments about the tinted windows interesting. It was shown in a vid a while ago that you can indeed see through the tinted windows just with your own eyes. There is footage out there of ben or chris or one of his guys following the ambulance with a vid camera. You can see in the footage on the camera that the paramedics and their badges can be seen through the same window the pic was shot through. There is also other footage where you can see the strip light in the ambulance and you can also see through the vehicle from back to front. I will try and get the links up to show you.

You have to be reasonable with the level of evidence you expect to see regarding MJ's death. Firstly you will never see his body - only family will see that. You would not see him being put into the ambulance because this happened behind the gates as expected. If the picture is real and not constructed, MJ was pictured in transit. He did leave the ambulance at the hospital, but the stretcher was surrounded by people, and ofcourse they never would have transported an uncovered body onto and off the helicopter. So what some people are expecting to see would never likely happen with a dead body anyway, least of all a very famous one. It's called protecting someone's dignity.
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 08:58:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgD4COfhrLU&feature=player_embedded

Ok at 4.53 someone gets a shot of the stretcher through the gate. That is alvarez btw directly behind the gate. The stretcher is being loaded into the ambulance by paramedics. The ambulance doors are open.

At 5.03 you will see the paramedic in the same position as shown in the ambulance pic. You can also see his badge.

In this vid - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPB2ocTHI6o - between 1.25 and 1.26 you can see the lighting inside the ambulance, top left corner. If you play it beyond 1.25 i think the front windows are visible (can see right through from back to front). At 1.31 you can also see an inside light through the side window (keep clicking pause and you will get it).
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 10:12:39 AM
Also this article by latoya http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1199092/La-Toya-Jackson-Michael-murdered--I-felt-start.html states that his eyes were open at the hospital.

We hugged and kissed him and the children lifted up his hands. He didn’t look like he was gone. His eyes were half open and he looked like he was sleeping. He wasn’t cold.

Looking back, this was the first time ever that anyone stated his eyes were slightly open. The ambulance pic came out within a day of his death. If that pic was constructed, how would they know to have his eyes slightly open?

If we assume that MJ did die, and ben evanstead knew that only his crew were there to take the picture, perhaps he realised he could construct the picture without anyone else being able to offer another pic that would prove it was false. Perhaps he did take a picture of MJ inside the ambulance, but discovered it was not good enough so decided to doctor it in some way. In this scenario the question would still stand - how did he know to have his eyes slightly open?I guess it depends on what you think was actually doctored.

Also, if he was going to construct that pic, he had to have had prior knowledge of what they did/were doing to mj in terms of what he should look like. He could not have accessed such information before the pic came out.
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 10:15:05 AM
So at face value, the pic looks accurate in terms of what the paramedics did (their report). So, if you think that the pic is completely fabricated - hoax - and designed to have everything corroborate, then you would expect it to be accurate as part of the hoax plan (yet the hoax is not proven).

A second option is that MJ did die but the pic was completely fabricated (how did ben get it so accurate though?).

Third option is MJ did die, ben got an incomplete pic and doctored it in some way to enhance the image - possible.

Fourth option is the picture is 100% genuine and undoctored.

I go with the 3rd or 4th. Is it me or is there slight lividity on the left shoulder underneath?
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the arabian nights

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 10:19:07 AM
Quote from: "QuirkyDiana"
Also this article by latoya http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1199092/La-Toya-Jackson-Michael-murdered--I-felt-start.html states that his eyes were open at the hospital.

We hugged and kissed him and the children lifted up his hands. He didn’t look like he was gone. His eyes were half open and he looked like he was sleeping. He wasn’t cold.

Looking back, this was the first time ever that anyone stated his eyes were slightly open. The ambulance pic came out within a day of his death. If that pic was constructed, how would they know to have his eyes slightly open?

If we assume that MJ did die, and ben evanstead knew that only his crew were there to take the picture, perhaps he realised he could construct the picture without anyone else being able to offer another pic that would prove it was false. Perhaps he did take a picture of MJ inside the ambulance, but discovered it was not good enough so decided to doctor it in some way. In this scenario the question would still stand - how did he know to have his eyes slightly open?I guess it depends on what you think was actually doctored.

Also, if he was going to construct that pic, he had to have had prior knowledge of what they did/were doing to mj in terms of what he should look like. He could not have accessed such information before the pic came out.
the orgins of the defence case - reports from the family?
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Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 10:28:38 AM
arabian i don't know what you mean?
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the arabian nights

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 10:50:35 AM
i think that murray has a poor case and will use what ever to get their client off the hook or present a reasonable doubt, it you look at what janet and latoya have said ,then they could use this to build a case and present a reasonabld doubt - if that is the case then he is off the hook
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline alovesmichael

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 11:02:50 AM
When somebody passes away, how long does it usually take before the body "becomes cold"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline LadyMedic

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    • http://lady-medic.blogspot.com/

Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 11:22:15 AM
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
When somebody passes away, how long does it usually take before the body "becomes cold"?
From what I've read, it takes HOURS. And the environment greatly effects this as well. Apparently, a body will decrease about 1 degree C every hour until it reaches room temperature. But again, this is effected by environment. Usually after at least 8 hours the body will become "cold". Why?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 01:23:59 PM
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
When somebody passes away, how long does it usually take before the body "becomes cold"?

As ladymedic says, those are the facts. Science is generally accurate. I believe you are asking because latoya said that mj was still warm in the following article.

She says Paris demanded to see her father ‘one last time’. After a nurse told La Toya it would help the children grasp the reality that their father was dead, she held Paris’s hand as all three children, together with Michael’s brother Randy, went into the small ante-room off the emergency room where Michael lay, still warm to the touch.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar ... start.html
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline alovesmichael

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 01:42:02 PM
Quote from: "QuirkyDiana"
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
When somebody passes away, how long does it usually take before the body "becomes cold"?

As ladymedic says, those are the facts. Science is generally accurate. I believe you are asking because latoya said that mj was still warm in the following article.

She says Paris demanded to see her father ‘one last time’. After a nurse told La Toya it would help the children grasp the reality that their father was dead, she held Paris’s hand as all three children, together with Michael’s brother Randy, went into the small ante-room off the emergency room where Michael lay, still warm to the touch.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar ... start.html
Yeah that's exactly what I thought about  :) Latoya's the only person who keeps telling detailed stories.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline QuirkyDiana

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 18, 2010, 02:31:38 PM
well latoya probably is the most comfortable with the press, perhaps that is why.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Avijackson

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 24, 2010, 03:52:54 AM
Quote from: "msteetee34"
His eyes look closed to me besides these photos aren't legit anyway.  These are old photo no way they are recent.  I believe these photos were taken when he was in his 30's from a previous trip to the hospital.  That's my personal opinion.


Also it is my personal opinion...  :|
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »


Offline Tina K.

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Re: Did he open his eyes? Look at this animation

  • on: April 24, 2010, 05:16:35 AM
Quote from: "Avijackson"
Quote from: "msteetee34"
His eyes look closed to me besides these photos aren't legit anyway.  These are old photo no way they are recent.  I believe these photos were taken when he was in his 30's from a previous trip to the hospital.  That's my personal opinion.


Also it is my personal opinion...  :|

Ditto !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Michael I love you allways.

 

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