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Datroot

Maybe he thought someone was trying to poison him.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I'M A LOVER, NOT A FIGHTER

Quote from: "Datroot"
Maybe he thought someone was trying to poison him.

But it says he "eats like a bird" which would mean that he ate but very very little and what would then be the purpose of the weight loss drugs? However, we're still basing our specualtions on the AR which is a bit worrying.
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the arabian nights

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Quote from: "Datroot"
Maybe he thought someone was trying to poison him.

then he could have got his mums cook to prepare food, he could have got another chef, he could have got a taster, he could try and cook or heat up something for himself - he was not a diva

he could have had a portion tested. he could have order deli takeouts

he could have checked in to a hotel and got room service

there are other options
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the arabian nights

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was there are trace of poisioning in the AR - i have not read it but i dont think that was mentioned

if anything mike was taking a red bull substitute
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Quote from: "the arabian nights"
was there are trace of poisioning in the AR - i have not read it but i dont think that was mentioned

if anything mike was taking a red bull substitute

No poison was mentioned..  no caffeine either.
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the arabian nights

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so who found this drug, did murray prescribe, was it over the counter, was it something that murray was taking ( he needs it) was it something his sisters left???
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the arabian nights

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Quote
Michael Jackson -- Strong Stimulant Found
Originally posted Apr 7th 2010 5:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff

There may be a clear explanation as to why Michael Jackson had trouble sleeping the night before he died -- authorities found a pill bottle in the room containing tablets that would have hyped the singer up big time.

The bottle, which had no label, contained 13 tablets. Each tablet had a combination of ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin. The commercial sale of ephedrine -- a stimulant designed for weight loss

-- is banned in the U.S. because of reports of heart attacks, strokes and even death.

Each pill contained 25 mg of ephedrine, 200 mg of caffeine and 80 mg of aspirin. The caffeine alone in each pill is equivalent to nearly a 6-pack of Coca-Cola.

One company that manufactures the drug warns against using it past mid-afternoon, because it will cause insomnia.

According to the toxicology results, ephedrine was present in Jackson's urine

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so an unnamed bottle of a banned med disclosed by TMZ and leaked by TMZ as part of the defence?
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Quote from: "the arabian nights"
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Quote
Michael Jackson -- Strong Stimulant Found
Originally posted Apr 7th 2010 5:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff

There may be a clear explanation as to why Michael Jackson had trouble sleeping the night before he died -- authorities found a pill bottle in the room containing tablets that would have hyped the singer up big time.

The bottle, which had no label, contained 13 tablets. Each tablet had a combination of ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin. The commercial sale of ephedrine -- a stimulant designed for weight loss

-- is banned in the U.S. because of reports of heart attacks, strokes and even death.

Each pill contained 25 mg of ephedrine, 200 mg of caffeine and 80 mg of aspirin. The caffeine alone in each pill is equivalent to nearly a 6-pack of Coca-Cola.

One company that manufactures the drug warns against using it past mid-afternoon, because it will cause insomnia.

According to the toxicology results, ephedrine was present in Jackson's urine

Read more: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

so an unnamed bottle of a banned med disclosed by TMZ and leaked by TMZ as part of the defence?

Cant see how it could be used in the defence.  It was Propofol that killed him, not epinephine.
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Someone on perezhilton.com (I know not the greatest source  :roll: ) that ephedrine was used to restart Michael's heart and that's why it was found in his urine... Can anyone with a medical background confirm if that's a normal procedure? Would explain why there wasn't any caffeine...
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Quote from: "alovesmichael"
Someone on perezhilton.com (I know not the greatest source  :roll: ) that ephedrine was used to restart Michael's heart and that's why it was found in his urine... Can anyone with a medical background confirm if that's a normal procedure? Would explain why there wasn't any caffeine...

Oohh.. interesting!!

But to have been in his urine, his circulation must have been working for it to pass into his urine???   If he was dead and unresponsive like they say..  how could it have passed through into his urine when his organs had packed up?

Most interesting..  hmmmm...
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Quote from: "DancingTheDream"
Quote from: "alovesmichael"
Someone on perezhilton.com (I know not the greatest source  :roll: ) that ephedrine was used to restart Michael's heart and that's why it was found in his urine... Can anyone with a medical background confirm if that's a normal procedure? Would explain why there wasn't any caffeine...

Oohh.. interesting!!

But to have been in his urine, his circulation must have been working for it to pass into his urine???   If he was dead and unresponsive like they say..  how could it have passed through into his urine when his organs had packed up?

Most interesting..  hmmmm...

Yeah, that's what I thought too. How could it be in his urine if it was used for that purpose? Strange...
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I think it's Epinephrine instead Ephedrine.
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"Won't you just let me be?..."

the arabian nights

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that is the procedure to resuscitate someone from a heart attack

thought mike had the hallelujah method for resuscitation

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hallelujah package
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Quote
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

Aired July 28, 2009 - 22:00   ET

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.

Tonight, breaking news, dramatic new developments in the Michael Jackson case and the battle for his money. We have just now learned of the toxicology and coroner reports will come out, but next week. The coroner's office all along saying they were on track to deliver them this week, but, tonight, that has changed.

Also, police today raiding the Las Vegas home and office of his personal doctor, Conrad Murray. And, as they did, CNN was uncovering new details of Jackson's final moments. Today, we learned how long paramedics worked on his apparently lifeless body before taking him to the hospital.

We're also learning about a fight now brewing over the Jackson estate, the family vs. AEG, the concert promoter, and what AEG is after.

Randi Kaye has got details of the coroner's report, the battle to keep Jackson alive, and the money battle in Los Angeles.

But we begin with the raids on Dr. Murray, and Ted Rowlands in Las Vegas -- Ted.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, two separate search warrants were served in Las Vegas, one at Murray's home in a gated community, the other one here at Murray's Las Vegas clinic.

The first one -- or the one at the house, only took three hours to serve. They went in. Murray greeted them. He was in the house at the time. They took out one computer hard drive and some cell phones.

Here, a much different story. They were here for a total of eight hours, going through medical evidence. They came out with what they called document evidence. They came out with a number of different things that were in briefcases and -- and other smaller items, not the big items that we saw in Houston, more smaller, more targeted, it seems, but it took them a while -- a long time to get them.

COOPER: So, Ted, at -- at -- where is Dr. Murray right now? Do we know? Is he in Las Vegas?

ROWLANDS: He is in Las Vegas. And, according to a neighbor, he has been in Las Vegas for much of the period of the last few weeks. His attorney has said that his life has been virtually miserable. He hasn't left his home because, every time he goes out, he is encountered by people. And he has to deal with the public on a level which he has never felt before. And that is why he has stayed at home.

But neighbors say he has been in his home and in Las Vegas for much of this period, while all this investigation has been circulating.

COOPER: All right, Ted, thanks.

On now to the new details Randi Kaye has been uncovering about the growing money battle over Jackson's estate, the coroner's report, and new information about what happened when paramedics first arrived at Jackson's home after that 911 call.

Randi, first, the breaking news.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we do have breaking news to tell you about.

As you know, sources all along telling us that the toxicology report and the coroner's report and the autopsy results would be made public by the end of this week. Well, now, tonight, I can tell you, as you heard as well, that the -- the final results and the -- and the report will be made public until some time next week.

I spoke with a source with knowledge of the autopsy. And he told me that the finishing touches are still being done, still being put on that report, and we can't expect it until some time next week -- so, Anderson, yet another delay.

COOPER: All right, Randi, you have been working your sources, have some new information tonight regarding the timeline and the scene when paramedics actually arrived at the house after that 911 call. What did they find?

KAYE: Well, this is some new information.

I spoke with Captain Steve Ruda from the L.A. Fire Department, and he told me that Michael was not breathing and had no pulse when paramedics arrived at the scene at his rented mansion. He said was in -- quote -- "dire need of help."

Now, let me set the scene for you at the house and put some things in perspective here and show you a little bit of the timeline of how this all occurred. We know that the 911 call came in at 12:22 in the afternoon on June 25. Apparently, it was not mentioned -- Michael Jackson was not mentioned, that he was the victim there.

The call, we now know, lasted 32 seconds. It took paramedics, four of them in all, three minutes and 17 seconds to get to his house. Captain Ruda with the fire department told me that Mr. Jackson got what he called the hallelujah package, which means he really got the works in this case.

And, at the house, Anderson, paramedics worked on Michael Jackson for 42 minutes.

COOPER: Never heard that term, the hallelujah package.

Why -- why did they work on him at the house for those 42 minutes? Why not just take him to the hospital right away? Was he not stable; he couldn't be moved?


KAYE: I wanted to know that same thing, actually. And he -- he called it scoop and run. That's when they pick up and transport right away. That did not happen in this case, for a number of reasons, Anderson.

First of all, I'm told that Dr. Conrad Murray, Michael Jackson's personal physician, who we just heard a little more about from Ted there, in Vegas, he took responsibility at the scene, this fire captain told me. He was in charge. He was calling the shots. He decided and determined that it was best to work on him there for those 42 minutes and try and get him breathing at the scene.

Captain Ruda told me that, when a patient is pulseless and not breathing, there are many things, of course, that paramedics can do to try to get the heartbeat again. They gave him oxygen. They gave medicines that he would not name. Nothing seemed to work.

But, again, this is treatment that was prescribed at the scene, and that's why he wasn't transported. And, in those 42 minutes, that's actually part of the golden hour, I'm told. That's what paramedics call it. It's all the time they have to jump-start the blood pressure and get the heart going again.

The fire captain I spoke with told me that, if a patient is just too far gone, obviously, no matter how long they work on him, nothing is going to help.

COOPER: And how much time has to pass before a patient is -- is simply too far gone?

KAYE: A patient, I'm told by this fire captain, can go without oxygen for about four to six minutes before severe brain damage sets in, followed by death.

I asked him if that's what happened in the case of Michael Jackson, and Captain Ruda told me -- quote -- "Based on what paramedics saw at the scene, they tried every technique known in the field." Still, we know, he could not be saved.

In the end, they loaded him into the ambulance at his rented mansion in Beverly Hills. It was about a two-mile drive or so from there to the UCLA emergency room. It took a little over four minutes, and, as we know now, that is where he died.

COOPER: All right, Randi, another hearing to -- to help settle Michael Jackson's estate is coming up on Monday. So, there's now reports of more infighting today between the family and the executors. What have you learned on what's going on?

KAYE: This seems never-ending.

As you mentioned, the -- the court hearing coming up. Well, in -- in advance of that, court documents filed today, Katherine Jackson, his -- Jackson's mother, demanding a pile of financial documents in advance of this August 3 hearing.

And those doctors would include contracts that her son had with his record labels, concert officials, promoters, even a contract that he had with his father, apparently.

Now, as you know, she lost temporary custody of the estate when Jackson named the executors in the will of his, and the judge granted control of the estate to these executors. Katherine Jackson apparently suggesting that she has not received the documents in advance of the hearing that she wants.

She says the executors are keeping her in the dark, her request being viewed by the estate as -- quote -- "voluminous, burdensome, and invasive."

Now, the lawyer for the executives released a statement to us tonight, and it reads: "The special administrators have and will continue to provide timely information to Mrs. Jackson's counsel regarding potential business for the estate. Any inference that we have not been forthcoming in providing information to Katherine Jackson's attorney is not accurate."

That is a quote. Now, it goes on to say that Mrs. Jackson's lawyers have refused the requested terms for a confidentiality agreement, which is between a third party and the Jackson estate, and that is why they have not received this one document, which is apparently what this is all about.

Why does all of this matter, probably, a lot of folks asking. Well, as you know, hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake here, including record royalties, and Jackson's share, of course, of the well-known Beatles catalogue -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Randi Kay covering a lot -- Randi, thanks very much.

And Ted Rowlands in Las Vegas, as well, thanks.

Let's dig deeper now on all the legal angles, most notably on the criminal side of things, CNN's own legal team, Jeffrey Toobin and Lisa Bloom, joining us now.

So, Jeff, last -- yesterday, you said didn't think -- it was too early to talk about manslaughter in connection to Dr. Murray. Now they have raided his Las Vegas office and his home. What do you think?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Well, they are obviously engaged in a very serious criminal investigation of him. He is a target.

I don't know if he is a target in the legal sense, but, certainly, in the sense you or I would use, he is a target of criminal investigation. Law enforcement officials do not behave this way unless they think they are going to charge someone.

Now, whether they ultimately do and what information, what evidence they have, we don't know. The key fact here is that the affidavit in support of the search warrant, the reasons that the investigators gave to the judge to grant the search warrant, that's still under seal. So, we don't know that, but, obviously, they -- they think they have a case on Murray.

COOPER: Yes.

Lisa, why wouldn't authorities, though, have done this sooner, if they raided his office in Texas last week? If Dr. Murray had something to hide -- and I'm not saying he does -- we have no idea -- but he certainly would have had a lot of time to hide it, if he was so inclined.

LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I can give you my educated hunch, Anderson, and that is that I would suspect that law enforcement has preliminary toxicology results.

And, remember, Dr. Murray voluntarily spoke to police twice at the beginning, about a month ago. So, you put together what he told them. You put together that they probably have preliminary toxicology results, because that's the way these things usually work. And now they're going to go back and see if they can connect the dots between the medications listed in those tox results and Dr. Murray.

Do they have, for example, shipping invoices, medical order forms, prescription records, or the actual medications themselves? Because, keep in mind, propofol, which is at the center of this investigation, is not a prescription. It's something that he may simply have had on hand. It may have been in Michael Jackson's rented home, and it may have been in one of the -- one of the locations that has been searched in connection with Dr. Murray...

COOPER: All right.

BLOOM: ... either his office or his clinic.

COOPER: Lisa, stick around, Jeff Bloom (sic) as well. We will have more shortly.

The -- the chat is under way at AC360.com. I have just logged on. Let us know what you think of all this. Also, 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta takes a look at that drug in question, Diprivan. What does it actually look like when someone is put under with Diprivan, put under properly? You will see for yourself in action literally second by second.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DR. RAPHAEL GERSHON, CHIEF OF ANESTHESIOLOGY, GRADY MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: He stopped breathing. So, this is -- watch him get (INAUDIBLE) CO2, and he is not breathing anymore. And my wonderful (INAUDIBLE) is going to help him breathe.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, take a look over here. All the breathing right now is taking place with this bag and this mask.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: A patient under Diprivan.

Later, authorities say they plotted violent jihad, a group of men in -- in rural North Carolina -- new information tonight on the arrests, another suspect still at large, and our own Peter Bergen on how much of a threat or how little homegrown violent jihad is becoming in the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: All right, so we just learned from Randi Kaye that the coroner's report on Michael Jackson's death, which we thought was going to be released at the end of this week, including all that toxicology information, is now going to be made public next week, not this week, as we had been previously led to believe.

Now, meantime, police searching the Las Vegas home and office of Jackson's doctor, Conrad Murray, investigators, including federal drug enforcement agents -- quote -- "looking for a lot of things" -- unquote.

Back with the panel, "Digging Deeper" with Lisa Bloom and Jeffrey Toobin.

So, we know from court documents filed last week that -- that, when Murray's Houston office was raided, it was -- it was possibly for a case of manslaughter. That's what -- his own attorney used the term. It was -- it was an investigation of manslaughter.

Are you any closer to saying that this could be a man -- that this is a manslaughter case?

TOOBIN: Well, it is a manslaughter investigation. Whether they will actually bring charges and whether Murray is guilty, I'm not ready to say.COOPER: It would be a hard thing to prove, given Michael Jackson's -- you know, the -- the allegations that have already been made about his drug use for years and years and years.

TOOBIN: And it seems to be a very difficult case.

Obviously, the key fact that we don't know is, what are the results of the -- the autopsy? Because, if there is a single drug in his system and a single obvious cause of death, maybe the case gets a little easier.

But, if there are other drugs in his system, if he has a history of use of other drugs, which seems clearly to be the case, if other doctors were involved in treating him, if he had independent access to drugs without Dr. Murray, it does seem like a very hard case to make.
COOPER: And -- and, Lisa, that will be a question, whether Dr. Murray knew of any other drug use for Michael Jackson.

BLOOM: Right.

The strength of the defense case, if this does turn into a trial, would be causation. Can the prosecution prove that the medication given by Dr. Murray, if any, is what caused Jackson's death? And, if there are a lot of other medications in Jackson's system, it makes it more and more difficult for the prosecution to link this to Dr. Murray.

The strength of the prosecution's case is propofol. If that is what was in Michael Jackson's system, if Dr. Murray can be proven to have given him propofol in a home, which is clearly against all reasonable medical thinking -- it's supposed to be in a hospital -- there's supposed to be artificial ventilation -- the patient should be monitored at all times -- then he really, I think, is in some legal jeopardy, because that's just beyond the pale of anything that any medical professional would recommend.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Go ahead.

TOOBIN: Manslaughter calls -- you have to prove recklessness. And it is possible that use of propofol could be considered reckless. But, remember, this is not a crime where anybody says Murray tried to kill Michael Jackson. So...

BLOOM: Of course not.

TOOBIN: ... he could say: Look, I was doing my best. I -- I was given these sets of instructions. He had this history.

So, I think intent is...

COOPER: And I'm -- and I'm just one in a line of doctors...

BLOOM: Yes, but -- but...

COOPER: ... who had given him this over the years.

TOOBIN: That's -- that's -- that's the idea.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Possibly.

BLOOM: Yes, but that's not a defense, Anderson. It's not a defense that Michael Jackson wanted it, or even begged for it. It's not a defense that other doctors may have done it over the years.

The question is, was it medically reckless to give this medication, knowing what this doctor knew or should have known, and which apparently...

COOPER: Right.

BLOOM: ... nearly all other doctors on the planet know? What's written on the directions, you know, printed on the forms for propofol is that it has to be in a hospital, and there have to be these safety precautions...

COOPER: Right.

BLOOM: ... which, clearly, were not there in Jackson's home.

COOPER: All right.

Lisa, Jeff, thanks very much, Lisa Bloom, Jeffrey Toobin.

Up next, we're actually going to show you how Diprivan works. You will see it in use in the only safe place to use it, a hospital O.R.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten, nine, eight...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deep breath.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... seven, six, five, four, three, two, one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And that's what it looks like.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: So, we have been talking about Michael Jackson's final moments and the drug Diprivan, or propofol. We have heard a lot about that over the last couple weeks. That's what Michael Jackson had apparently been using on and off for years.
It is the drug Dr. Conrad Murray allegedly administered before Jackson died, the drug that every doctor we have asked says would be incredibly dangerous to give outside of a hospital setting.

You're about to see why. We're going to show you in real time exactly how Diprivan works. And you will see for yourself all the equipment and expertise needed to make sure patients go under safely and come back up.

360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta takes us "Up Close."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: Well, Anderson, there's been a lot of discussion regarding propofol, how exactly to use it. And is it considered safe in any setting, except a hospital or a medical setting?

So, I decided pictures are worth a thousand words. I'm going to take you inside my operating room to show you firsthand what really happens.

Come on in.

So, we are here inside the operating room with Dr. Gershon. He is the chief of anesthesiology here. Propofol is a medication he uses all the time.

So, is this it right over here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

GUPTA: It looks like -- milk of amnesia, they call it.

DR. RAPHAEL GERSHON, CHIEF OF ANESTHESIOLOGY, GRADY MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: Milk of amnesia.

Vincent (ph), you OK?

We have to monitor his EKG. We have to monitor his (INAUDIBLE) CO2. We have to make sure that he is breathing. We have to see his saturation. We have to make sure he is ventilated.

GUPTA: So, these are all -- that's all typical stuff any time you use these medications?

GERSHON: That's standard of care, yes.

GUPTA: OK.

So, the propofol...

GERSHON: We're going to start infusing this.

You are going to get a little sleepy, Vincent, OK? Give me some good deep breaths.

GUPTA: Watch this go in. Take a look at his eyes, how quickly he's...

GERSHON: Deep breath, Vincent. Doing great. You may feel a little burning. OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one. GERSHON: There's a reason for his heart rate increasing.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Uh-huh.

GUPTA: So, what's...

GERSHON: See, his eyes have closed.

GUPTA: His eyes closed. And what else are you looking for?

GERSHON: Now, we look up here. He -- he stopped breathing. So, this is -- watch him get (INAUDIBLE) CO2, and he is not breathing anymore. And my wonderful (INAUDIBLE) is going to help him breathe.

GUPTA: So, take a look over here. All the breathing right now is taking place with this bag and this mask. On that medication, he wouldn't be able to breathe on his own without those things.

Well, there, you can see of the problem. Just with that much propofol there, he stopped breathing, and he's going to need a breathing tube.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Easy.

(CROSSTALK)

GUPTA: What -- what is so attractive about this medication?

GERSHON: Well (INAUDIBLE) has been in the advent in the last 10 years or so, even more, 15 years. And it's just basically a quick on, quick off.

And that people answer why people may think that this is something they could do at home, because, if it gets out of hand, it goes away quickly. The problem is, it gets out of hand, and there's nobody there to resuscitate you, then nobody could bring you back.

GUPTA: So, that was -- that was pretty quick. You just made some of the medication, and you're going to...

(CROSSTALK)

GERSHON: Five, 10 minutes.

GUPTA: Five, 10 minutes, he has gone from being completely awake to being completely asleep.

GERSHON: He's not breathing. I'm breathing for him.

GUPTA: One thing that's worth pointing out is that this is a hospital that uses this medication thousands and thousands of times a year. But they do use this medication is non-hospital settings, like outpatient clinics. The doctors here will tell you they have never heard of it being used in a home -- Anderson, back to you.
Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 02:26:45 PM by the arabian nights
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the arabian nights

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Quote from: "DancingTheDream"
Quote from: "the arabian nights"
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Quote
Michael Jackson -- Strong Stimulant Found
Originally posted Apr 7th 2010 5:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff

There may be a clear explanation as to why Michael Jackson had trouble sleeping the night before he died -- authorities found a pill bottle in the room containing tablets that would have hyped the singer up big time.

The bottle, which had no label, contained 13 tablets. Each tablet had a combination of ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin. The commercial sale of ephedrine -- a stimulant designed for weight loss

-- is banned in the U.S. because of reports of heart attacks, strokes and even death.

Each pill contained 25 mg of ephedrine, 200 mg of caffeine and 80 mg of aspirin. The caffeine alone in each pill is equivalent to nearly a 6-pack of Coca-Cola.

One company that manufactures the drug warns against using it past mid-afternoon, because it will cause insomnia.

According to the toxicology results, ephedrine was present in Jackson's urine

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so an unnamed bottle of a banned med disclosed by TMZ and leaked by TMZ as part of the defence?

Cant see how it could be used in the defence.  It was Propofol that killed him, not epinephine.

my point i think is the the defence team are using weak arguments to inject reasonable doubt - that he used a stimulant, could not sleep, eyes were open (latoya) he self injected and caused his own death
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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the arabian nights

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but on the flip side are the comments made by the family designed to get murray of the hook

1. janet - a number of interventions/he had a problem
2. latoya - his eyes where open

still think that is the most bizarre way to hoax your death, why involve the doctor in a drug related incident which would be bound to lead to autopsies , why do it in a state that does brain test [do all states do that?] why not fall down the steps have your doctor confirm death go off in private van and then off
Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 02:47:54 PM by the arabian nights
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