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~Souza~Topic starter

Discussion 1: Could he have done it alone?
April 19, 2011, 11:31:12 PM
AllInGoodTime suggested we'd take it one step at a time, so first discussion point: Could MJ have pulled this all off alone? And who are involved?
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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OK cool.....

Lets start with----

Reasons why MJ could of done this all by himself.

-money
-connections
-ummm  it's hard to come up with more...next.....
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Smee: Captain, the ice is melting, the sun is out, and the flowers are all in bloom...
Captain Hook: He\'s back!

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bec

I vote you repost your most recent tiai post here AIGT, and then I'll move my response over from the intro thread. It was a good one, nice jump off point. It will be buried there.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I think souza is right, the helicopter is irrelevant til you answer who/what was is in ambo.

Honestly, noone has "real" proof and we all here can justify our own reasoning to make it make sense. Tho, somewhat disappointed TS started us down this path again and is not available to "guide" us thru, we can all argue the merits to our points forever.

At some point logic must takeover and fantasy and delusional(only because we want it to be true) ideas as to the events must end and tho no concrete evidence is available, logical and critical thinking must be used in order to discover the events of the hoax.

Example of critical thinking scenarios-
-Could MJ pull this off alone?
-You know must consider the scope, scale and those involved.
-Tho we love MJ and he has done a great many things and has met, rubbed and associated with the most powerful people, we WANT to believe he could do this alone without assistance.
-Now considering what we think we know, Is this really possible? And why?
MJ had/has many influences, and could pay/persaude/reward many people to play along.
Logically without emotion the possibility is very slim. So you must weigh this versus....
-Now consider why this is not possible. And why.
-could not pay everyone
-or have the influence to do so
-amount of departments, people and resources needed
-coordination , timing and "making the signs match exactly"
-so on and so forth.
For example purposes only, this appears to be heavily favored in the fact he most probably could not do this alone. Ruling out what your heart feels and your mind wants, it is quite clear MJ needed help.

And the process continues, So if help was needed then(next question). You know have a reference and logical starting point in which to return to when other issues/questions arise.

In time, the answers will answer themselves with the questions you have already debated. And a more realistic conculsion can be made.

MY heart says I see MJ move in the copter. Tho lighting and angles says it could be just that. But in fact, that very question could be answered without all the "what if" providing critical thinking is applied from the beginning and logic is used to interpet what you find. Because if we discover the answer to the body , we discover the ambulance, we discover the pic, the phone call etc etc. Which answers if/what was in copter. But all these answers are answered if you start at the bginnning.

Not saying the way each of you research and/or deduct your ideas is wrong, just maybe giving a different thought process that can be used. Ideas pertaining to all the various issues can give multiple results and moreso if not done in a chronilogical order. By concluding the questions in the order in which the happen will rule out many of "far fetched" ideads we have. (and I have had many)

as requested....
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Smee: Captain, the ice is melting, the sun is out, and the flowers are all in bloom...
Captain Hook: He\'s back!

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bec

So in light of that, no, it's not realistically possible that he did this alone, ie without help from the authorities.

So ok, we have FBI. Which of all the govt departments, are most likely because they override everyone else. Well, except the CIA, but they're more international, working intelligence and all, so would be unlikely have an interest or stake in anything domestic like the death hoax (which is more or less, for all practical purposes, pretty isolated to the US).

So ok, so the FBI is involved. They would provide the means to keep it on the down low and prevent questions from being asked by any unaware but key players, example: helicopter guys.

So with the FBI on board, who does MJ really have to fool with the charade on 6/25? The media and the public. The media will fool the public on their own so really, all he has to fool is the media.

So if only the media need to be fooled, why bother with a real corpse? Or even a dummy for that matter.

But we saw something on 6/25 being loaded into and unloaded out of a helicopter.

So what was it? Doesn't matter really since we know it wasn't a dead MJ. And with the FBI on board, it could have been anything... it just had to look like a body from 100 yards away on camera.

That being said, if only the media needed to be fooled, and it's certainly not normal or usual to transport a body in a sheet, why did they decline the use of a body bag which would seem standard? Why draw attention this way?

Original theories were because Michael needed to breathe. I think there is a great deal of merit to our original work and this has always stuck in my mind.

Hit me.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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oh good gosh  I have a "few" more as to "no way in ...." he did this alone.  This will probably least debated question. Tho bec, lol, your already on question 23...haha
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Smee: Captain, the ice is melting, the sun is out, and the flowers are all in bloom...
Captain Hook: He\'s back!

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bec

So who's he working the hardest to fool the most?

The media.

And that excites me a great deal because that is coming full circle on our investigations. It was the initial impression once real theories started to form in summer of 2009, that he's punking the media as payback for all the lies they print and the way they manipulate our reality.

Am I going too fast or off topic already?

I am aren't I.

Sorry. I'm anxious to get rolling.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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the question who....

FBI, CIA are the only 2 agencies with the ability to perform, decieve and construct the hoax the way it played out.  FBI is more logical due to witness protection programs and their knowledge of how to "make one disappear".   The FBI could recruit, "force"(lol) and leaglly have the various parties comply with little risk of discovery.  To coordinate fire, police, coroner and have them provide personnel to achieve the hoax is easily within their capabilities.  And could of done this in a much less complicated way with same results.

Ya bec, we gotta start at the beginning, even if it seems like a given.  One question, one rip it apart, next...hehe...because later when other not so easy stuff comes up , the debate we have here plays a role to the answers to come later.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Smee: Captain, the ice is melting, the sun is out, and the flowers are all in bloom...
Captain Hook: He\'s back!

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bec

Coordination is key. Different agencies working together is key.

So long as they are working together.

We know LAFD is in. But what about LAPD?

ALso, remember rumors of the LAPD and the DA fighting over the Murray being arrested thing? Very early 2010 reports were hinting that the agencies weren't getting along and couldn't agree on whether Murray could turn himself in or not. Remember this? It was before Murray's arrest in Feb 2010. I suppose they were talking about it in October 2009 even.

Then some spokesperson from some agency came forward and said no one is fighting, paperwork, delay, blah blah, is the excuse etc etc yada.

Whatever. Does LAPD have to be in on it? If they are clueless that would explain the delay in their response to the scene, 2 days later. They may have been milling about going wait, what?

I don't recall any LAPD official involvement indicating their status either way.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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also, LAPD should of made the house a crime scene much sooner.  The family tampered and removed evidence or even planted some.  So I could see a "special" blind crime scene crew sent for show.  Afterall this was a show.  Chief resigns.  Why?  Perhaps he falls from the spotlight and it fades away.  I think yes PD envolved.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Smee: Captain, the ice is melting, the sun is out, and the flowers are all in bloom...
Captain Hook: He\'s back!

*

bec

You could argue that LAPD were not in on it (can we say IOI=In On It, since this comes up so often?)

LAPD not IOI, they were so late in the know on 6/25/09 so their info came directly from the media, just like everyone else, and followed up on it only because of media pressure. They didn't show up on 6/25 because there was no real 911 call so no real dispatch of emergency personnel either, which is how they would be alerted in case of a real emergency. That didn't come so they didn't come. They only showed up for crowd control because that was the only call they got. LAPD would be so busy running crowd control it perhaps delayed any latent investigation into the "death" that should have happened.

LAPD is IOI, they were working in conjunction with the LAFD under FBI mandate so were not authorized to be involved that day. They were following a script which timed their response 2 days later.

I don't know. LAPD not IOI sounds more realistic just rereading what I wrote but that could be considered a risk. The sisters showed up at Carrolwood that night and cleaned the place out (or dropped stuff off). If LAPD not IOI, there would be the risk that they would be at the house when investigators showed up... so maybe that's why they came late at night, as caught on camera by the paparazzi.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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bec

If LAPD were IOI, why not have a police car stationed with the fire truck outside Carrolwood for realism? This has been one of the odd things about that day, no police presence at the house. So if it's all staged and LAPD/LAFD are both IOI, imagine the show they should have put on, LAPD providing some good crowd control at the house, holding back some crazed fans even, paparazzi slipping through to get the pic...

So why not LAPD at the scene? Maybe they're not IOI. At least not at the time on 6/25?
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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~Souza~Topic starter

If the LAPD was NOT in, wouldn't they have found it odd that they did not get notified about the emergency that day?

We must also not forget that by July, all chiefs that were in office that day, will either have resigned, or have their terms ended.

LAPD Chief William Bratton form LAFD resigned in August 2009, leaving office October 31, 2009:

Quote
Bratton, 61, announced Wednesday that he will be leaving the department on October 31, with three years left in his second five-year term.
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Fire Chief Douglas Barry resigned on May 28, 2009, leaving office August 31, 2009:

Quote
Los Angeles Fire Department Chief Douglas Barry, who took office two years ago and vowed to reform the troubled department, will retire effective Aug. 31..
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Director of FBI Robert Mueller's term ends July 5, 2011 (FBI Director's term is now max. 10 years):

Quote
Mueller was nominated for the position of FBI Director on July 5, 2001.
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Former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's term ended this January.

So all key people of the government agencies will be gone by July 5 this year. Coincidence? I know that the term of two of them simply ended/ends this year, but Barry was only 2 years in office and Bratton had 3 years left when he quit.

The LAPD had to provide a lot of agents during the memorial and they made a little bit too many mistakes after June 25. Too many to have been mistakes if you ask me.[/color]
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~Souza~Topic starter

Another one:

Amir Dan Rubin, the Chief Operating Officer at UCLA left UCLA in December 2010

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That's this guy:

[youtube:23y2zke0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVaEaDty5_Y[/youtube:23y2zke0]
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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paula-c

To do that Michael must have had help from some people who work for the government, FBI, paramedics, someone in the hospital and the coroner.
 According to Michael paramedics was already "dead" when they arrived so why not been complied with the protocol and called the police, Murray insisted that taking him to hospital, the hospital said they worked resusitaste trying without any results, I do not think a paramedic in a apreciasion mistake like this, I think I had to remove the "corpse" without police intervention.
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