TS/T.I.A.I discussion

[fordtocarr]

I think the VERY problem IS that most people in the world DO follow the 'messengers' without thinking for themselves.  And no matter how 'awake' we are now...we, TOO, have at one point or other ALSO followed 'messengers' without verifying or researching anything on our own.  That is called being 'conditioned'...and not all conditioning is bad.  A loving parent conditioning their child to learn right from wrong is NOT a bad thing, while conditioning your child to hate is...it's all in the 'INTENT' motivating the conditioning. 

But 'society' (and it's pretty global) has become TOO conditioned...too lazy to question anything because that involves time and effort...it's MUCH easier if someone, anyone just provides the answers.  We believe what doctors tell us we should put into our bodies after a 10 minute meeting in their office (doctors who probably got more problems than you can shake a stick at and are probably self-medicating to get through the day---they are 'human' too)...we rely on 'government' to test our drugs, our water, our food, our children (BUT...the kicker is, we know that 'they don't care about us')....we rely (for the most part) on rich, white men to run countries and make laws that affect our lives every second (all the while being completely ignorant, or willfully disregarding, the history of the 'white man' and how 'they', historically, haven't given a shit about anyone but themselves)....and we allow 'them' to 'fill the minds' of our children (as if they were empty) with stuff THEY choose to teach, based on THEIR perspective...whether in a school, in a libarary, in a movie theatre, or even in our own living rooms.  And people are 'worried' about TS or Front or Back? 

TS' 'message' from the very beginning was to question everything....EVEN him and everything he says.
And that's what some of us are doing.  Perhaps TS would be glad we are if he instructed us to  question everything, even him. 
Also, to me and I think to others, the reason this keeps getting brought up, isn't boredom (it comes up when things lul because it's always on our mind, but when busy our mind is occupied), but the reason is because we never get an answer.  I think we know there probably is no answer, but it is a puzzle, just as the whole hoax, and as ts has come into the hoax proclaiming to KNOW, then it is part of the puzzle to find and question just who is claiming that.
True, he don't have many posts, but why the need if you can come in with even just ONE post and shape the way the hoax travels?  It don't take a lot of words to change an investigation.  Just make people believe you know more than they do.  Get them with simple clues to do their own research then that way, if you are not legit or if things don't pan out, it's not because of you, but because of THEM, who came to the wrong conclusion simply from your hint.
I'm not sitting on the fence with ts, wanting to be right, or just in case, that way I'm right either way.  I just don't want anyone to tell me which path to take without telling me why to do it, or where I'll end up even.  Granted I don't have to listen...BUT, as I keep saying, what ts says, does effect the entire hoax.  I can post, oh say, Michael did all this so all will become JW"S.  But, then it would go back to...NO, TS posts say...blah blah.  Or we have proof otherwise because of somethings said that ts lead to.  So, not following ts does still matter.
I think that probably, once again, these questions will not be answered, until there is some firm definitive evidence for us who question as ts did say to do.
Also, I'm not saying I will do everything Michael says to do.  But, regarding the hoax, if he said well, you need to do this or that to understand, then yes I would.  Of course, I don't think he'd say to do things to change MY life as jump in the fire or change my religion, unless he could provide why.
To me it is important where your info comes from when you represent someone people are investigating.  If there were an actual physical investigation, and someone as ts wrote this info to the cops, would they want proof, would they want to know who is giving it?  Well, to us too.  I'm not at all wanting to be right.  I'd rather be wrong really and have ts just lead me and push the directions for me.  But for me true colors have shown and facts too.  We can and will believe as our inner voice speaks, but really, perhaps we should once again let it go and just investigate it all in the background.
Love to you all♥


 He offered 'paths' that anyone was free to choose to take or completely ignore.  But based on post counts alone....he pretty much provided the 'titles' and WE filled in the chapters with OUR research, OUR thoughts, OUR findings, OUR analysis, OUR teamwork.  It's completely CRAZY for me to understand those that feel TS is 'manipulating' us for some sinister 'hidden agenda'. THAT sort of 'conditioning'/manipulation that people are insinuating works in the polar opposite direction...the 'chapter' is written FOR you in those cases and you're lucky if you even get a say in the 'title'.

There are 373985 posts on this forum....as of this post.  Under the username TS, where he did most of his writing, there were 24 posts in total.  Under the username TS_comments, there are to-date, 166 posts.  If his 'mission' is some grand form of sinister 'manipulation', then he's really not putting a lot of emphasis on brainwashing people with anything he has to say.  WE have been writing the hoax 'chapters' all along....and EVEN when people have begged and begged and begged for TS to just give us the answers, he didn't and still hasn't and most likely won't.  Adding THAT 'trait' (refusing to fill people's minds for them)...to the 'profile' of a sociopath or some cult-like 'manipulator' would, IMO, require a complete abandonment of logic.

I think level 7 included a 'test' in this sort of thing...and I'm pretty sure I failed  :lol:.

With L.O.V.E. always.

[paula-c]

I believe that anyone here is going to change their religious beliefs by the biblical references of TS, i have very clearly in what i believe, and as well as i do there are many people.

[paula-c]

If Michael tells you to jump in the fire, would you do that?

yes bounce/


 

 :lol: :lol:

[wishingstar]

Regardless of who Front and TS are, I think we are forgetting here that both knew certain things in advance, and both are being backed up by Michael's own family. So whoever they might be should not be important, clearly the family thinks it's important enough to support both of them. That means that there is probably something in the messages we should pay attention to.

If you think any of them is controlling your mind, then you clearly do not think for yourself and you lack faith in yourself and your own beliefs. Saying that you would only believe the information if it were fed to you by Michael, is a strange statement. If Michael tells you to jump in the fire, would you do that? If he told you to convert to the JW belief, would you do that? Only because you trust the messenger? TS said to go by the evidence itself, not the messenger. He provides information and you are free to believe whatever you want. If you do not believe the information, then fine: move along to other threads. This has been discussed a hundred times and is going in circles. Are we bored or something?

You have managed to put into words exactly what I have been feeling.  TS could be Santa Claus for all we know.  By that, I mean to say he is as real as you believe him to be.  Santa to me is a figurehead for giving and sharing.  TS has come to be a figurehead for thinking outside the box and believing in yourself.  If it turns out I was wrong.  Am I going to be worse off....no.  I still have gained a significant amount of knowledge about what makes ME really think on a subject.  That alone is a very valuable lesson.  Do not put so much pressure on Michael that he feels he alone has to be the bearer of faith.  True, it's his hoax, he controls it I am sure.  However, I highly doubt he could respect someone that would blindly follow him down any path without questioning him as well.  A healthy line of questioning of TS is good.  To be so caught up in negativity towards him is unreasonable.  Look at the hard and fast information that was presented...not by whom.
   
The message is still the same......think for yourself, have faith in yourself, have faith the absolute truth shall indeed prevail.  All the evidence in the world wouldn't do a lick of good if you don't truly believe enough in yourself.  Michael is the catalyst for change, he is not a doctrine to blindly follow.  Nowhere do I see the Holy Book of Mike sitting around.

I find it very interesting that the forum as a whole has become more introverted in thoughts.  We are looking at ourselves more than ever before.  Our focus has not stayed on the ambulance, the hospital, the helicopters, the memorial, the funeral or any other situation/evidence.  We have an occasional "WTFoosball is this moment" here and there.  However, the days of digging seem lost on us.  Remember how hot the topic of Michael's art was?  How how many posts we had about a single photograph here and there?  We dug for days without bickering and looking at each other crossways.  I would think those days made TS/Front/Back/Michael/ and anyone else leap for joy.  We got off that bus a long time ago, why?  Because we began to question ourselves more than trust in what we know.  I am as guilty as the next.  Sometimes, when I write it's almost a selfish confirmation of my own beliefs.  I can't control what other others think and do, so why spend my time talking them into things?  I feel badly for saying that, but it's true.  I am sure TS probably has had glimpses of that feeling as well.  We are free to come and go, free to exchange thoughts respectfully and free to believe what we want.  I don't think any less of anyone here for questioning TS/Front/Back whoever.  I know what I believe, and that's good enough for me.  If Michael said jump in the fire, I'd say, "OK, hold on while I grab the extinguisher first!"  Never in a million years did I think I'd be here, in the world of a Michael Jackson hoax.....never.  However, I guess I did jump........and it's hot in here at times.  Yet, I still believe and have faith I did the right thing....freely. 

Blessings to you all....have faith!

 

[reveron1958]

:? I think it’s about my time to jump ship because unfortunately it seems to be sinking fast. /cook/  I didn’t come here to debate others reigious beliefs, nor to judge anyone about who they have chosen for their spiritual guidance and/or savior.  And though I am somewhat certain that spirituality plays a large part of the hoax, I don’t believe that Michael Jakson would try to pit one against the other based on how they were raised to serve their God, who ever he or she turns out to be.  It is a choice, after all.  All the bickering, and finger pointing and putting each other down on a personal level for how they choose to believe is in my opinion a waste of energy.  It’s turned into a I am wrong and you are right, I am knowledgeable and you are stupid, a me, me, me mentality that doesn’t accomplish anything.  I thought we were here to find  the truth in the lies that we were being told about June 25, 2009.  How did that get us here, fighting with each other about our own faith?  It’s not about us.  :evil:  I say who ever you choose to pray to is your choice, as well it should be.  I will never tell anyone that their belief is wrong.  And I wouldn’t appreciate anyone telling me that mine was with such defiance. That’s why I usually never talk religion and shun it altogether.  It’s dangerous.   It’s called “choice” for a reason.  No one else gets to vote.  This is getting beyond my comfort level.  I’ll come back when the discussion gets back to helping pave the way for Michael to return safely.  This debate has no resolve and is frustrating to watch it unfold.  Michael wants us to find our own truth not for anyone else to find it for us.

Completely agree. Great post.

[_Anna_]

Also, to me and I think to others, the reason this keeps getting brought up, isn't boredom (it comes up when things lul because it's always on our mind, but when busy our mind is occupied), but the reason is because we never get an answer.  I think we know there probably is no answer, but it is a puzzle, just as the whole hoax, and as ts has come into the hoax proclaiming to KNOW, then it is part of the puzzle to find and question just who is claiming that.

Exactly. This is my problem too. We never get some serious answers, just more and more questions and "maybe's".

I'm not sitting on the fence with ts, wanting to be right, or just in case, that way I'm right either way.  I just don't want anyone to tell me which path to take without telling me why to do it, or where I'll end up even.  Granted I don't have to listen...BUT, as I keep saying, what ts says, does effect the entire hoax.  I can post, oh say, Michael did all this so all will become JW"S.  But, then it would go back to...NO, TS posts say...blah blah.  Or we have proof otherwise because of somethings said that ts lead to.  So, not following ts does still matter.
I think that probably, once again, these questions will not be answered, until there is some firm definitive evidence for us who question as ts did say to do.

Again, exactly my thoughts. I will explain more.
Let's say some of us really don't believe Michael has planned all his life to hoax his death at the age of 50, so some of us don't believe he's spent 20 years planning to do this in 2009. I'm not saying this can be done in a rush, but I hardly believe he's spent 20 years thinking and planning this. If those who think he has planned this let's say  most likely around "Invincible", people jump and say "you have to be kidding me, I mean Michael has spent 20+ years planning his hoax for you to come and say [...]" and etc, and etc. You know? Who says he spent 20 years planning to hoax his death? TS. Actually there is no real proof of that. Just the movie "Moonwalker" is not a proof. It doesn't show any sign about planning to hoax his death since late 80s. And from there, the ones that don't believe he spent 20 years planning to hoax his death are somehow belittled as if we "don't know shit". So somehow yes, all the discussion spins around already pre-established doctrines.

[fordtocarr]

Also, to me and I think to others, the reason this keeps getting brought up, isn't boredom (it comes up when things lul because it's always on our mind, but when busy our mind is occupied), but the reason is because we never get an answer.  I think we know there probably is no answer, but it is a puzzle, just as the whole hoax, and as ts has come into the hoax proclaiming to KNOW, then it is part of the puzzle to find and question just who is claiming that.

Exactly. This is my problem too. We never get some serious answers, just more and more questions and "maybe's".

I'm not sitting on the fence with ts, wanting to be right, or just in case, that way I'm right either way.  I just don't want anyone to tell me which path to take without telling me why to do it, or where I'll end up even.  Granted I don't have to listen...BUT, as I keep saying, what ts says, does effect the entire hoax.  I can post, oh say, Michael did all this so all will become JW"S.  But, then it would go back to...NO, TS posts say...blah blah.  Or we have proof otherwise because of somethings said that ts lead to.  So, not following ts does still matter.
I think that probably, once again, these questions will not be answered, until there is some firm definitive evidence for us who question as ts did say to do.

Again, exactly my thoughts. I will explain more.
Let's say some of us really don't believe Michael has planned all his life to hoax his death at the age of 50, so some of us don't believe he's spent 20 years planning to do this in 2009. I'm not saying this can be done in a rush, but I hardly believe he's spent 20 years thinking and planning this. If those who think he has planned this let's say  most likely around "Invincible", people jump and say "you have to be kidding me, I mean Michael has spent 20+ years planning his hoax for you to come and say [...]" and etc, and etc. You know? Who says he spent 20 years planning to hoax his death? TS. Actually there is no real proof of that. Just the movie "Moonwalker" is not a proof. It doesn't show any sign about planning to hoax his death since late 80s. And from there, the ones that don't believe he spent 20 years planning to hoax his death are somehow belittled as if we "don't know shit". So somehow yes, all the discussion spins around already pre-established doctrines.

AND, to me, would he have planned on this 20 years and then had 3 children to leave?  Granted we think he's with them, but really, tell me the worlds biggest story ever would be catching a living Michael Jackson.  Think he's with the kids, never leaving the house?  They are there in public now..coming and going.  He'd be seen for sure that close to the world.  But, otherwise, he'd plan on having kids, knowing he'd leave them, 20 years ago.  To much don't make sense.  I do think his songs point to "something", but I don't know if it's this.....
I just have faith in Michael's knowing what he's doing, and being safe and happy. 

[SimPattyK]

@MissG: before I start asking you some questions, I'd like to tell you that I appreciate you very much for your original points of view, very cleverly expressed and especially for your polite, civilized tone. Not only you don't offend nor patronize anyone of us who have definitely a very different opinion from yours, but you also manage to have a conversation with opposing interlocutors. That's rare! and I love this! I just wanted you to know this.
Everything I wrote in this paragraph is also available to Anna!

Now, let's continue with our contradictory discussion

[...]TS to me is NOT one who is manipulating in order to gather a congregation of supporters for some unknown agenda but Front, and not to gather a congregation but to have an audience to be entertain with, not the other way around.

1. How do you envision someone's entertainment as you mentioned above^^?
I mean if Front likes to have an audience here (even as small as 20-30 people like on this forum and a few hundred others who just watch , but by not participating you can never know if they read Front's messages in particular, so we stick to 20-30 people), ok so I repeat: if you think Front is entertained by fooling around with this audience here, I tried to put myself in the shoes of such a person and I thought: how entertaining can it be? to play pretend as an insider to some 20-30 MJ believers, by writing a post or two per week, not more, giving them cryptic messages as you say, false clues, writing jokes, making some snippets with lyrics bashing the media, and you can add anything that Front-the faker seems to be doing here. I thought and I thought from the faker's perspective, but I couldn't find the entertainment! what's so funny about it? I mean at the beginning: you can have fun receiving all the posters' attention, receiving loving messages, you can feel good about yourself knowing that some 20-30 people wait impatiently for your next post, then you can laugh at believers at first, for 2-3 days, even weeks, but then, it's gotta become extremely boring, even for a mentally disturbed person who would do such a thing.  So please tell me what do you think that Front, who in your view is a faker, who entertains himself with the 20 people audience here, what do you think he finds so entertaining about his fake game?
2. And if you think that it's not TS the one who manipulates, but only Front, then how do you explain TS validating Front? I mean in this case they either have to be both manipulators/fakers or neither of them!

3. I've been reading a lot these days with all these contradictory discussions on who is who or who is fake or not.
And I've read a lot about :
"getting hurt", "suffering", "being manipulated", "scary hidden agendas", 'religious fanatics", "mass manipulators".... and all scary stuff like that.
I would like to ask all users who sustain[ed] these ideas ^^ to develop a bit more and if possible to give concrete examples for each and every word that I quoted above^^.
Because I really feel there's just to much "suffering", "hurting", "manipulation" existing in words and /or in some people's minds, but I don't quite see any actual, factual, provable existence of these notions in reality!! at least not here, at least not in the topics that I read so far, at least NOT anywhere around TS, Front, Back messages.

4. I also thought about the "after-math" of all this, I tried to imagine how it would be if in the end, after the BAM, Michael comes out and tells the truth, namely that TS and/or Front were fakers, I reflected about how much I would "suffer" or be "hurt" because I trusted them to be insiders or at some point even Michael himself. And frankly, I think there's no reason to suffer or to feel hurt just because of that!
Angry at them and at myself for having been punked (or mag-funked ! lmao  :lol: :lol: ), yes! For a few moments, for a few days, depending... But afterwards I would laugh so hard about everything!! and most of all I would forget about their deceit and I will will stick to the nice funny memories and wonderful people I met here during this adventure! I would remember how this TS-faker made me discover so many unknown things till then about Elvis and Michael, how I started searching , learning about things that I never knew existed before... I will remember that my faith in God increased , but that did not result in me adopting any bizarre religious doctrine, under the effect of the so-called "mass manipulation" supposedly going on here!
 So I still can't see where all this fear for "suffering" comes from ?? Really!

[...]Many points of view has been presented. Enough to decide who or what to believe. To make up the mind with "second" opinions

Exactly! We've arrived at a point when everybody should know what way to take! you either believe or not!

[SimPattyK]

P.S. @Sim...thank you SO much for your kind words.  You have taught me plenty...through your posts on and off the forum...and I am 'better' for having met you.  You've 'manipulated'/shifted my perspective on Elvis and on the connections between Elvis and MJ...and have inspired me to further learn more on my own.   
Keep up the great work!
With L.O.V.E. always.

aaawww!
 Thank you!! I feel honored... and proud by what you said!
kissss & hugs

SimPattyK

I really have a dream about all our hoax-family getting to finally meet one day...

How totally awesome that would be!  A little bit of heaven on earth!

ooh yess! definitely!  bearhug

[bec]

2. that strong evidence was always based on numerology, which is a pseudoscience.

I just wanted to bring this back up. Your sentiments re: numerology are repeated not infrequently, yet they miss the point completely and need to be addressed.

Of course numerology is a pseudoscience. No one disputes that. This is not the point.

Numerology defined:

Numerology is any study of the purported divine, mystical or other special relationship between a count or measurement and life.

and this equating pseudoscience I believe is undisputed.

But this is not how it applies to the hoax.

How does numerology apply to the hoax?

The accepted premise is: MJ used certain numbers as a template for his hoax plans. He purposely manipulated dates, quantities, and figures to include numerical elements; ie 9/9/09, 777, 1998, 111, 666, etc, that show up periodically. These numerical elements that appear with tremendous frequency in all things hoax related could either be 1) coincidences or 2) by design. Because we all agree that numerology is a pseudoscience, we accept that their appearances are not divinely inspired. This leaves few possibilities as to WHO designed their inclusion. Many accept that MJ himself designed their inclusion, NOT GOD.

If anyone were touting that god (or even fate) was responsible for these numbers showing up in this hoax, you could refute that theory by offering the fact that numerology is a pseudoscience and you'd be right.

However, as it is, the idea is that MJ is responsible for these numbers showing up is not a pseudoscience, that's a PLAN.

And that's the point. So please, once and for all, understand that it matters not that numerology IS INDEED a pseudoscience. It matters only that the numerology is either 1) all coincidences or 2) planned by SOMEONE.

This is why TS posted the $999 reward to anyone who could prove that the numerology was all a coincidence. If you rule out coincidence, you settle on 2) it was planned.

Once you arrive at that premise, you must further delve into deciding WHO's plan it was. That brought us to the murder vs. hoax discussion. The numerology was either planned by 1) MJ or 2) the murders... and etc etc etc as TS's posts entail.

Does that help clarify?

[suspicious mind]

sorry to come in with my questions again but: do you all suppose that every thread that was started by these informers actually came to the conclusion they were perhaps looking for or that our own notions took over and led the discussion instead? again sorry so many questions 

[Sarahli]

MissG:

TS to me is NOT one who is manipulating in order to gather a congregation of supporters for some unknown agenda but Front, and not to gather a congregation but to have an audience to be entertain with, not the other way around.

That doesn't make sense at all  suspicious// because TS has validated Front many times through his redirects. Not to mention all the validation from MJ's family and official MJ Facebook page. Not just once -- not twice -- but several times.  rr/

Like Souza said:

Regardless of who Front and TS are, I think we are forgetting here that both knew certain things in advance, and both are being backed up by Michael's own family. So whoever they might be should not be important, clearly the family thinks it's important enough to support both of them. That means that there is probably something in the messages we should pay attention to.

Great post!  /bravo/

I would like to say that I am very thankful that we have been having this discussion in a peaceful manner without bashing anyone. Someone said on the back/Front thread that they feel even stronger when things like this happen and we all pull through and bond together (I think it was MJonmind?), and I totally agree. I love you ALL, my MJ Fam!

 bearhug

[_Anna_]

@Bec

My point is that the 999 numerology was never found in Michael's work as it's the case with 777. I'm not saying literally that numerology doesn't count  and that we can't base our belief on it. If Michael wants to use numerology, that's ok, you can plan to do some things considering the numbers you want, and arrange the things as you want. But 999 was brought up from nowhere. Around 999 there is the circle formed with another chain of connections. But 999 was never brought up by Michael himself. He never wore 999 on his clothes, never had a thing with 9 or 999 like it's the case with 7 or 777.

[Sarah31]

The reason why TS never posted a ton of posts and why just a handful of posts are enough: all you need to do is plant a seed ... the people do the rest of the work.

There is also a very good movie about "The Wave":

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"A high school teacher's unusual experiment to demonstrate to his students what life is like under a dictatorship spins horribly out of control when he forms a social unit with a life of its own."

[bec]

@Anna: well ok but you said... nevermind I addressed it already. I agree it's a non-debatable topic.

I agree we never saw MJ related to 999... but MJ DID write 1998 with his autograph many, many times.

You say the Dangerous autograph was decoded by TS before you had a chance to try yourself, fine. But you have to understand, by the point in time that TS decoded the Dangerous autograph, we had HUNDREDS of people working on this. HUNDREDS. Our numbers back at that point in hoax history were staggeringly large compared to today. You have to take into consideration that not one of those HUNDREDS of people were able to do what TS did, and that's crack the code.

But nothing is stopping anyone from trying their hand at it now. What if TS is wrong? What if there's another way to decipher it? I haven't seen any rebuttals to TS's explanation for the Dangerous autograph.

I have looked at it and it's pretty simple. I don't see any other way to decode it that makes any kind of sense at all. That doesn't mean there isn't one, however.

But it's all the same debate. If you want to argue that 999 is irrelevant personally to MJ, then you arrive at these two options: 1) the numerology is all a coincidence (see $999 reward post) or 2) the numerology was planted by the murderers (see Greatest Proof, Hoax vs. Murder thread).

In my opinion, both of those theories are easily refuted, and realistically, neither can be the case.