a video is worth a thousand words!! lets re-examine something shall we???

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Offline badkolo

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMJsh0DWSy8[/youtube]

Watch that again, yes we all have seen this dr gupta video many times but have we really paid attention to what is happening, what is explained on how propfol works and how you can or can not overdose from it.

So first off lets exclude murder - that would intale dr murray injected michael with a huge dose of propofol and then removing the oxygen mask off of michaels face to stop him form breathing and this would only be done to make it look like a overdose, why? when all you would have to do to kill michael is remove the oxygen mask from michaels face with no need to inject any additional propofol in him because as we can clearly see from the video, YOU CAN NOT BREATHE ON YOUR OWN, YOU CAN NOT USE PROPOFOL WITHOUT A MACHINE ASSISTING YOUR BREATHING AND THATS A FACT NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.

So murder is ruled out as there would be no reason to inject michael with any more propofol, he already has been filling him up with drugs all night right?? so simply removing the oxygen mask and letting him die would be all thats needed and would come with less headache in the long run with the cops, if your going to kill him why introduce more complications and further implicating yourself, instead simply lift off the mask, let him die and call 911 and your scott free.

But thats not what happen so lets take a look and ask some questions and then ask our selves how this is possible. I do see this as a brilliant move on michaels part, using propofol was pure genius, he knew the  media would be all over it, he knew they would dissect it and run tons of stories and videos on propofol and yet after all the crap and all the stories they ran they all skipped over the points i made above and the ones im about to make.

1. As you inject yourself with propfol you fall asleep before you can OD and doing so without the oxygen mask means instant death because your not breathing on your own, there is no middle ground, you dont use a little to sleep and breathe on your own.

2. Lets say michael woke up because the propofol wore off, he would still have the oxygen mask on, leans over because he wants more sleep and starts to press the injection to force more propofol into him, ok but as hes doing so hes falling back asleep and the mask is still breathing for him.

complicating this that you dont have a propfol bottle hanging off your leg or arm , thats not how its delivered, so did he wake up, get the bottle , prep it all up and then kill himself, I doubt that.
Or are we suppose to belive the propofol was in a dripper bag and then michael injected himself from that which again is not possible becuase its a dripper bag and it doesnt allow a huge amount in at one squeeze. If we go by Tmz and had a iv his arm which again drips and he would fall asleep before a od and if it was in his leg then you have to take into account all the things he would have to do to prep and inject.

3. How did murray know michael was not breathing when he walked back into the room if the oxygen mask was still on his face and there where not any monitors, if there where monitors then they would have went off when they notice no breathing or heart function so we know that device was not used. So we know no monitors  where used. AND IF he was found with no oxygen mask around his face then its not possible  he was on propfol, again this makes no sense because then you lead down the path of suicide which we know didnt happen, because of he had no mask on when found then that means he woke, took off the mask and injected himself to kill himself because he never placed the mask back on.

So basicly he made it very simple for us to prove how its not possible yet the others simply wont look into how it works and what went on that night, if any of that stuff went on at all, the more you look at what we have to play with the more it seems the whole story is bogus.


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Offline ~Souza~

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This makes the story of the defense bogus, since Murray (as a cardiologist!) should have known he had to put on the oxygen when putting him under with Propofol, and if he had been giving Michael the propofol for 6 weeks, he must have used it, otherwise he would have found him not breathing first time around. So saying that he found him not breathing is BS, as badkolo points out, because he would be on oxygen. The only thing that could have happened, was him finding Michael in cardiac arrest, but as there was no monitor, it would not have been possible to notice that.

But it also makes the story of the prosecution bogus, since there is no way Murray could have simply neglected his patient, it would have been murder if Murray didn't have him on oxygen and left the room with the propofol dripping into his vains. No excuse of Murray not aware of needing oxygen, because we all heard that he had been giving him propofol for weeks. That would mean they should have charged him for murder, which they didn't. So either all the lawyers in this case have an IQ as low as the avarage room temperature in Celcius, or this event never occured.

Offline mjj4ever777

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Also, when given propofol, you must be "intubated", the tube that goes down your throat, to which the oxygen is then administered through. I don't recall any talk of MJ being "intubated"by Murray or any intubation equipment being found... just mention of an oxygen mask and tank...so this is another reason why this NEVER happened!

It is really sad that "society" is so brainwashed that they automatically believe the "crap" that they are "fed" by the media!...seems like we do more research then all the media, lawyers and general public, put together do!

Offline everlastinglove_MJ

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Quote
3. How did murray know michael was not breathing when he walked back into the room if the oxygen mask was still on his face and there where not any monitors, 

Good question. If Murray assumed that Michael wasn't breathing and Murray did CPR without checking the breathing, it might be possible that there was a pulse and CPR can be considered as a contraindication. Michael could get a CA as a result of this contraindication i.e. failure i.e murder.
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Offline badkolo

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we never heard murray say, the mask was on when i left the room and then when i walked back in it was off, oh no, he said he walked back in and notcied him not breathing, HOW??


there was no monitor, so if he was to walk back in and michael was laying down and the oxygen mask was on his face then you wouldnt notice anything different so murray is lying or this didnt happen.


AND this was suppose to be number 4 which i forgot to add but mj4ever777 pointed out exactly what is in the video
""Also, when given propofol, you must be "intubated", the tube that goes down your throat, to which the oxygen is then administered through. I don't recall any talk of MJ being "intubated"by Murray or any intubation equipment ""


There is so many holes to this propofol story but the media just decided to grasp on to the shock of it all and how they could manipulate and drag this story on for ratings and shock value without simply looking at the plausibility of this actually happening.



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Offline suspicious mind

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this has been the thing that brought me into the idea that something wasn't right from the beginning. if it wasn't done right he would have died much sooner. but if it was done right , even when it was suppose to have been done long ago, then it seems to me his vocal chords would have been put at risk for damage also. think about the prospect of these tubes going in and coming out on a daily basis.
so what do you guys think of the part with judith in tii as compared to the video at the james brown concert. do you think it was actually him in tii?
"I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves."  




Why not just tell people I'm an alien from Mars? Tell them I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight. They'll believe anything you say, because you're a reporter. But if I, Michael Jackson, were to say, "I'm an alien from Mars and I eat live chickens and do a voodoo dance at midnight," people would say, "Oh, man, that Michael Jackson is nuts. He's cracked up. You can't believe a single word that comes out of his mouth."

Offline all4loveandbelieve

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Forget about media, how about La Toya she stated  that Michael had enough propofol to kill and elephant.. So she is also spreading false information just like the media. I am sure Michael did research about propofol before he declared this hoax death. I am sure he knew that so many people will catch on, and not listening to the media... Badkolo I agree with you  100%. I spoke to my friend doctor, and yes he vouched that this is the way propofol is used, and he thinks that Michael never had any trace of propofol in his body.. Here in Canada Montreal, there is no propofol sold in pharmacies, it is strictly  in hospital, this is why I am astonished if pharmacies sells them in USA..


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Offline everlastinglove_MJ

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 What’s also striking is the silence of other physicians in the media. I mean, no collegue physician who stood up for Murray.. Why? Way too tricky :roll: . They know Murray didn't follow the correct procedure, so they see no reason to defend him.
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Offline mjintrigue2012

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Hi guys,
Just to correct a bit, one does not have to be intubated to receive Propofol. A patient is intubated when receiving Propofol as part of general anesthesia in the OR, as a continuous Propofol infusion.  Or if sedation is required for an intubated patient who needs to be ventilated, say in an ICU-type situation, a Propofol infusion will be run so that they will not "fight" the endotracheal tube + ventilator, and will conserve much needed energy.

Propofol is also used as a single dose for more minor procedures, without intubation, but it's effects will only last about 20 minutes. This is ONLY done in a highly monitored area, with the proper safety equipment and personnel available, should the patient get into respiratory difficulties.  Another single dose would be required in about 20 minutes and so on and so forth. So, Murray would have had to be sitting there and "pushing" Propofol all night into Michael's IV to keep him asleep. He would have NOT been intubated all night, without a ventilator, on a PROPOFOL infusion at home. NO WAY!!! The story is BOGUS no matter how you slice it!

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« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 07:33:35 PM by mjintrigue2012 »

Offline MJonmind

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Does anybody know what exact amount of propofol that would typically be injected into a patient as shown in the video, where the patient would stop breathing and require intubation. They just show syringes. All4loveandbelieve, maybe you could ask your doctor friend.  And have they said what amounts of propofol Murray was supposedly injecting every 20 minutes or so without intubation. Maybe that's the whole confusion-- amounts of propofol given.  Murray said he came into the room and Michael's eyes were open, and we clearly see this patient's eyes slowly close as the propofol takes effect and stops his breathing.

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Exhibit B gonna rock that trial


Besides 10 - 8,  8 - 10  Oct. 8, could the numbers be amounts of propofol?

Offline bec

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That is a syringe between 40 and 60ml and it is full.
Are you entertained?

Offline _Anna_

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we never heard murray say, the mask was on when i left the room and then when i walked back in it was off, oh no, he said he walked back in and notcied him not breathing, HOW??


there was no monitor, so if he was to walk back in and michael was laying down and the oxygen mask was on his face then you wouldnt notice anything different so murray is lying or this didnt happen.


AND this was suppose to be number 4 which i forgot to add but mj4ever777 pointed out exactly what is in the video
""Also, when given propofol, you must be "intubated", the tube that goes down your throat, to which the oxygen is then administered through. I don't recall any talk of MJ being "intubated"by Murray or any intubation equipment ""


There is so many holes to this propofol story but the media just decided to grasp on to the shock of it all and how they could manipulate and drag this story on for ratings and shock value without simply looking at the plausibility of this actually happening.




It fails me right now to remember all details if anyone can help- Do we know from a reliable source (I mean no tabloid) how was the  oxygen mask found? It was on his face or taken off/fallen?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 02:05:32 AM by _Anna_ »

Offline curls

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Fundamental questions brought up here - thank you guys. I wonder if the lawyers, on both sides, have actually addressed these issues and will bring them up in court.  Wouldn't it be something if the court decides that not only is Murray innocent, but also that MJ couldn't have even died in the way presented?

Offline GINAFELICIA

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This is the first time I hear about an oxygen mask that should have been on his face.
I don't recall any oxygen mask talk from those involved. I probably missed it.

Offline SimPattyK

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I hope someone can make an English version of this video for everybody to understand! 'cause it's very interesting investgative work of this Romanian fan-group of believers!
The 3-rd MIchael Jackson Congress Romania - http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=144622632278298

Offline SimPattyK

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I hope someone can make an English version of this video for everybody to understand! 'cause it's very interesting investgative work of this Romanian fan-group of believers!
The 3-rd MIchael Jackson Congress Romania - http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=144622632278298
This is another video that discusses the "crime scene"...the bedroom... in English!
[youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEaWNXeUfPo&feature=share[/youtube]

Offline MissG

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What I understand reading this article (very informative one, btw);
http://liambean.hubpages.com/hub/Propofol-Diprivan--what-is-it
Propofol has a very "steep" dose response curve. This means that the amount of drug required to induce sleep and the amount of drug required to cause death can be quite close to the same amount. e.g. one amount will cause the desired effect; a slightly higher dose death.
Because of this steep curve, the drug includes label warnings urging medical professionals who use the drug to have resuscitation equipment on hand at all times

[/color]I just remember Kay Chase mentioning that Murray carried oxigen tanks. There was no resuscitation equipment in the room.
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline MissG

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Murray also said that he did not know what Michael took when being "treated" with propofol.

Interactions with Propofol
http://www.iddb.org/drugs/propofol/

Some MEDICINES MAY INTERACT with Propofol . Tell your health care provider if you are taking any other medicines, especially any of the following:

    Benzodiazepines (eg, alprazolam), narcotic pain relievers (eg, morphine), or other sedatives (eg, chloral hydrate) because they may increase the risk of Propofol's side effects


Whatever the situation is, Michael could not inject himself and leave no evidence. 
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline ~Souza~

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Murray also said that he did not know what Michael took when being "treated" with propofol.

Interactions with Propofol
http://www.iddb.org/drugs/propofol/

Some MEDICINES MAY INTERACT with Propofol . Tell your health care provider if you are taking any other medicines, especially any of the following:

    Benzodiazepines (eg, alprazolam), narcotic pain relievers (eg, morphine), or other sedatives (eg, chloral hydrate) because they may increase the risk of Propofol's side effects


Whatever the situation is, Michael could not inject himself and leave no evidence.

Interesting, since Murray feeded Mike benzo's the whole night before giving him the propofol (well, in the story we're being told that is of course...)

Offline MissG

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Many versions. I wonder which one would be the one they keep for the trial.

What is clear is that propofol can´t be administered at home, without a resuscitacion equipment, with no anesthesiologist and to a person taking benzos.

Why, why whyyyy  /pull hair/ where the tapes erased? why  /scream/
("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Offline xxmjxx

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Yes
Many versions. I wonder which one would be the one they keep for the trial.

What is clear is that propofol can´t be administered at home, without a resuscitacion equipment, with no anesthesiologist and to a person taking benzos.

Why, why whyyyy  /pull hair/ where the tapes erased? why  /scream/
Yes the missing tapes :? ,and what about the money and jewels that they say went missing also....... confused/

Offline Tink

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As someone who's been on Propofol 3X for life saving surgeries over the past few months, perhaps I can give an intimate eyeful here. First of all, you can give benzos, but it must be applied by the anesthesiologist. It's given first in the line, if the patient is anxious. I've been given either versed or valium.

Next, I was told I WOULD most likely stop breathing, because that's just the way it is. Out of three times, I stopped breathing last week. I still am froggy from that, and can hardly sing myself.

YOU CANNOT SING, when intubated properly with Propofol!

1 out of 3 times, you're guaranteed to stop breathing. If more than one benzo, then I say, intubate every time. Then you can't sing AT ALL!

You get my point? Propofol with intubation = NO SINGING for TWO WEEKS!

In other words, ordering that amount of Propofol, was a smoke screen - magic trick.

Michael knows damn well that you need an anesthesiologist for this stuff! I heard my heart monitor STOPPING, as I was waking up. It was bad scary, having someone yelling at me to "BREATHE! Just breathe, or we're shoving the tube back down your throat!" Yes, I breathed deeply, and curbing anxiety for half an hour, concentrating on that beeping machine, because I was beginning to go into cardiac arrest - I could feel my heart fluttering.

You think Michael would go through that each and every night!? NO!
Black & Proud! I'm like the Oracle/Batgirl, who helps Batman in the comic books. I believe in "Comic Book justice."


Offline _Anna_

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@Tink
But can you be put under propofol without intubation and equipment? Just inject it and that's all? Without monitoring the heartbeats, if you are still alive or not?

Offline Grace

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As soon as the official published version changed to Propofol only and as soon as we had calculated the dose and my veterinary confirmed that this dose was only sufficient to get a dog asleep, I knew that the story was bogus.

The trial was a brilliant extension to that initial place of performance when those slides of the blinder than stones (but attributed with worldwide influence) experts came up. I wonder how everybody in the court room could hold back their laughter because I could not. The daily weather and traffic forecast just added the dot on the i.  :lol:
Michael doesn't even have to be present - just his name is sufficient to pluck the world's heartstrings.
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Offline MJonmind

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As someone who's been on Propofol 3X for life saving surgeries over the past few months, perhaps I can give an intimate eyeful here. First of all, you can give benzos, but it must be applied by the anesthesiologist. It's given first in the line, if the patient is anxious. I've been given either versed or valium.

Next, I was told I WOULD most likely stop breathing, because that's just the way it is. Out of three times, I stopped breathing last week. I still am froggy from that, and can hardly sing myself.

YOU CANNOT SING, when intubated properly with Propofol!

1 out of 3 times, you're guaranteed to stop breathing. If more than one benzo, then I say, intubate every time. Then you can't sing AT ALL!

You get my point? Propofol with intubation = NO SINGING for TWO WEEKS!

In other words, ordering that amount of Propofol, was a smoke screen - magic trick.

Michael knows damn well that you need an anesthesiologist for this stuff! I heard my heart monitor STOPPING, as I was waking up. It was bad scary, having someone yelling at me to "BREATHE! Just breathe, or we're shoving the tube back down your throat!" Yes, I breathed deeply, and curbing anxiety for half an hour, concentrating on that beeping machine, because I was beginning to go into cardiac arrest - I could feel my heart fluttering.

You think Michael would go through that each and every night!? NO!


Tink, great confirmation to what we all, I'm sure, knew instinctively since learning about propofol.

Can you confirm the instructions you were given about not eating or drinking for 8 or so hours before, because of the risking of aspirating? Thanks!
Murray had no suctioning equipment.


Impossible that CM was giving MJ that for 6 weeks nightly without incident, let alone MJ singing and performing daily.  Haha!  But how'd MJ come up with this brilliant unique story-line?  Probably from hanging around watching those surgeries at UCLA, as has been said. And I'm sure out of the 10,000 books there was a huge medical section  /cook/ :lol: .  Simply the best of the best, to keep all kinds of professionals spouting their knowledge, and all the world believing every line!


To Michael:   /bravo/
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 06:59:30 AM by MJonmind »

 

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