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Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 11, 2011, 09:36:02 AM
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.

Mark Twain

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Datroot

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 11, 2011, 12:25:25 PM
If Propofol was only going to be used for 10 mins, what was the point of MJ using it to sleep?  Surely he would have wanted to sleep for longer than 10 mins.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I'M A LOVER, NOT A FIGHTER

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all4loveandbelieve

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 11, 2011, 02:49:20 PM
Quote from: "vup"
He didn't fool anyone. He had to be safe from his murderers who saw in Michael only MONEY. Stop thinking everything is about you in his life. Family first. Fans after. Deal with it.


What do you mean it is about me or us fans in his life. We have never said that. We are simply trying to figure out this propofol thingy.. Now you deal with it capisce my friend.
capisce in italian means UNDERSTAND. I am a fan since Michael started to sing, He is only 2 yrs older than I. I am concerned just like you are. I know family comes first I have one. Maybe he did not have any murderers, how about that, maybe he was fed up of everything around him. Maybe he did not want to do the 50 concerts and he desapeared. Nobody knows only He does.. Once he will come back everything will be explained.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I'm happy to be alive, I'm happy to be who I am.
Michael Jackson

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 11, 2011, 05:10:58 PM
Quote from: "vup"
He didn't fool anyone. He had to be safe from his murderers who saw in Michael only MONEY. Stop thinking everything is about you in his life. Family first. Fans after. Deal with it.

 I don't know who thought the way you are saying. I mean, some people might have thought that they deserved more attention, but I am certainly not one of them. I didn't even get to see him in concert, which I kick myself now for it. I should have.
  I have always been a good and loyal fan of his music and showmanship, but I have always known he is just a man that and his family is whole other world and of course, most certainly it comes first.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.

Mark Twain

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all4loveandbelieve

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 11, 2011, 09:49:22 PM
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "vup"
He didn't fool anyone. He had to be safe from his murderers who saw in Michael only MONEY. Stop thinking everything is about you in his life. Family first. Fans after. Deal with it.

 I don't know who thought the way you are saying. I mean, some people might have thought that they deserved more attention, but I am certainly not one of them. I didn't even get to see him in concert, which I kick myself now for it. I should have.
  I have always been a good and loyal fan of his music and showmanship, but I have always known he is just a man that and his family is whole other world and of course, most certainly it comes first.

=@reading_on dont be too hard on yourself. Tell you the truth Ihave never seen Michael's concert either. I know he came several times in Montreal to do concerts, but since I come from an Italian family, which are very stricted. In that era I did not have the liberty as my children have today. Today it is a different era. You should never regret what happened in the past you just move on. Michael is not dead, and you will have more opportunities. God Bless.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I'm happy to be alive, I'm happy to be who I am.
Michael Jackson

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 11, 2011, 10:11:52 PM
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.

And that explains the “IV bag containing a milky white substance”, though assuming it was propofol because of its colour may be a mistake. Was toxicology given for exactly what the IV bag contained? If it WAS propofol then it was used to induce a coma and this would explain the presence of the catheter.
 
And this leads to the EMT statement; the patient “looked like a hospice patient” and wasn’t recognised as Michael Jackson. And THIS leads to the theory that the patient WAS a terminally ill hospice patient and it wasn’t MJ at all. MJ didn’t need a catheter or an IV bag if he was only given a push of 25mg. Unless putting MJ into a coma was a regular procedure but just wasn’t done on this particular occasion. A ridiculous notion as I’m sure if this were the case there would be household witnesses to verify.

All this evidence totally contradicts Murray’s claim stating he gave MJ 25mg of propofol- only enough to put him out for 10 minutes max. The 150mg found in the bloodstream could be explained by the IV drip but this doesn’t fit with eyewitness accounts of a healthy entertainer who performed strongly the night before and was further required to keep up the effort. I agree with reading_on as well in that 10.30 in the morning was extremely late in the day to be implementing such a debilitating treatment.
 
The description and toxicology findings fit a palliative patient not expecting to leave their bed too often if ever again...
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but no one is entitled to their own facts" ~ Nobel Laureate, Elizabeth Blackburn

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all4loveandbelieve

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 12, 2011, 03:58:09 AM
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.

And that explains the “IV bag containing a milky white substance”, though assuming it was propofol because of its colour may be a mistake. Was toxicology given for exactly what the IV bag contained? If it WAS propofol then it was used to induce a coma and this would explain the presence of the catheter.
 
And this leads to the EMT statement; the patient “looked like a hospice patient” and wasn’t recognised as Michael Jackson. And THIS leads to the theory that the patient WAS a terminally ill hospice patient and it wasn’t MJ at all. MJ didn’t need a catheter or an IV bag if he was only given a push of 25mg. Unless putting MJ into a coma was a regular procedure but just wasn’t done on this particular occasion. A ridiculous notion as I’m sure if this were the case there would be household witnesses to verify.

All this evidence totally contradicts Murray’s claim stating he gave MJ 25mg of propofol- only enough to put him out for 10 minutes max. The 150mg found in the bloodstream could be explained by the IV drip but this doesn’t fit with eyewitness accounts of a healthy entertainer who performed strongly the night before and was further required to keep up the effort. I agree with reading_on as well in that 10.30 in the morning was extremely late in the day to be implementing such a debilitating treatment.
 
The description and toxicology findings fit a palliative patient not expecting to leave their bed too often if ever again...

If you are asleep for 10 mins with propofol  you do not need a catheter. I spoke to my friend doctor and he told me that a catheter is put to a patient who cannot get up , eg: a patient who got operated, they put catheter for  a while. A patient who is terminally ill who cannot get up anymore . For 10 ,mins he did not need it. He finds this so strange that no one  in court is looking at this into depth. They have so  many medical people being asked question in court not even one came close to finding out more information. He told me they are making a mokery of medicine and a mokery of the law.  Sorry but these are his words. First off he also told me, did they examine the catheter? DNA testing, you know you can find out a DNA with urine, who did it belong to? I think this would have been the first thing to do.  if they would test it at this moment, the results wouldn't be conclusive. He said this catheter and propofol was not MIchael's, He also stated that maybe there was also morphine in the IV to numb the pain of the terminally ill person. Which they probably never found out or they keeping it a secret. Blessings
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I'm happy to be alive, I'm happy to be who I am.
Michael Jackson

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 12, 2011, 07:03:48 AM
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.

And that explains the “IV bag containing a milky white substance”, though assuming it was propofol because of its colour may be a mistake. Was toxicology given for exactly what the IV bag contained? If it WAS propofol then it was used to induce a coma and this would explain the presence of the catheter.
 
And this leads to the EMT statement; the patient “looked like a hospice patient” and wasn’t recognised as Michael Jackson. And THIS leads to the theory that the patient WAS a terminally ill hospice patient and it wasn’t MJ at all. MJ didn’t need a catheter or an IV bag if he was only given a push of 25mg. Unless putting MJ into a coma was a regular procedure but just wasn’t done on this particular occasion. A ridiculous notion as I’m sure if this were the case there would be household witnesses to verify.

All this evidence totally contradicts Murray’s claim stating he gave MJ 25mg of propofol- only enough to put him out for 10 minutes max. The 150mg found in the bloodstream could be explained by the IV drip but this doesn’t fit with eyewitness accounts of a healthy entertainer who performed strongly the night before and was further required to keep up the effort. I agree with reading_on as well in that 10.30 in the morning was extremely late in the day to be implementing such a debilitating treatment.
 
The description and toxicology findings fit a palliative patient not expecting to leave their bed too often if ever again...

If you are asleep for 10 mins with propofol  you do not need a catheter. I spoke to my friend doctor and he told me that a catheter is put to a patient who cannot get up , eg: a patient who got operated, they put catheter for  a while. A patient who is terminally ill who cannot get up anymore . For 10 ,mins he did not need it. He finds this so strange that no one  in court is looking at this into depth. They have so  many medical people being asked question in court not even one came close to finding out more information. He told me they are making a mokery of medicine and a mokery of the law.  Sorry but these are his words. First off he also told me, did they examine the catheter? DNA testing, you know you can find out a DNA with urine, who did it belong to? I think this would have been the first thing to do.  if they would test it at this moment, the results wouldn't be conclusive. He said this catheter and propofol was not MIchael's, He also stated that maybe there was also morphine in the IV to numb the pain of the terminally ill person. Which they probably never found out or they keeping it a secret. Blessings


These are all good points and I myself was not looking deep enough. The catheter is in place for people on the drip, that are going to be asleep for extended periods. I would not call a few hours extended enough. But do we have any reports about the catheter being in when they reached the house? I thought this was after the fact, and if that is true they may have inserted one at the hospital to try and drain urine for testing.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.

Mark Twain

*

all4loveandbelieve

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 12, 2011, 11:17:01 AM
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "all4loveandbelieve"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "reading_on"
Quote from: "Heartsong"
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Thanks for giving personal experience with propofol aftereffects.

Well from the very basic script of MJ using an IV of propofol which apparantly doesn't even provide restful sleep and MJ had a fear of needles, something that includes requiring a urine pad and a penis catheter, and now this mention of throwing up after you wake up. Why not just get hit with a hammer every night, and wake up rested. Do you hear mans-laughter in all this? Also from what I've read the catheter insertion is extremely painful, and with longer use associated with a high risk for infection, skin breakdown, bladder stones and cancer. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Yes, propofol use to gain sleep is extreme overkill (no pun intended). Robin Williams likened it to using chemotherapy to achieve a close haircut...

I have personally witnessed it's use in OR and it was used secondarily, to maintain GA, not as the primary anaesthetic. It was given in increments ("push" or "bolus"), based on instructions from the anaesthetist, who was obviously basing his decisions on vital sign monitoring. I never saw it hung in an IV bag. An artificial airway was always in place.

Also, from what I have read, the catheter was a condom one, which does not involve insertion. This reduces risk of infection/complications but can cause excoriation if in place for long periods of time. Not sure why a catheter would be needed anyway if the amount of propofol given was intended to only last for 10 minutes...

Just more food for thought...

I have seen it IV drip for medically induced coma, but artificial airway was the FIRST consideration. I find it highly negligent that propofol was administered without the airway. Whether a patient dies or not, you are certainly setting him up to.

And that explains the “IV bag containing a milky white substance”, though assuming it was propofol because of its colour may be a mistake. Was toxicology given for exactly what the IV bag contained? If it WAS propofol then it was used to induce a coma and this would explain the presence of the catheter.
 
And this leads to the EMT statement; the patient “looked like a hospice patient” and wasn’t recognised as Michael Jackson. And THIS leads to the theory that the patient WAS a terminally ill hospice patient and it wasn’t MJ at all. MJ didn’t need a catheter or an IV bag if he was only given a push of 25mg. Unless putting MJ into a coma was a regular procedure but just wasn’t done on this particular occasion. A ridiculous notion as I’m sure if this were the case there would be household witnesses to verify.

All this evidence totally contradicts Murray’s claim stating he gave MJ 25mg of propofol- only enough to put him out for 10 minutes max. The 150mg found in the bloodstream could be explained by the IV drip but this doesn’t fit with eyewitness accounts of a healthy entertainer who performed strongly the night before and was further required to keep up the effort. I agree with reading_on as well in that 10.30 in the morning was extremely late in the day to be implementing such a debilitating treatment.
 
The description and toxicology findings fit a palliative patient not expecting to leave their bed too often if ever again...

If you are asleep for 10 mins with propofol  you do not need a catheter. I spoke to my friend doctor and he told me that a catheter is put to a patient who cannot get up , eg: a patient who got operated, they put catheter for  a while. A patient who is terminally ill who cannot get up anymore . For 10 ,mins he did not need it. He finds this so strange that no one  in court is looking at this into depth. They have so  many medical people being asked question in court not even one came close to finding out more information. He told me they are making a mokery of medicine and a mokery of the law.  Sorry but these are his words. First off he also told me, did they examine the catheter? DNA testing, you know you can find out a DNA with urine, who did it belong to? I think this would have been the first thing to do.  if they would test it at this moment, the results wouldn't be conclusive. He said this catheter and propofol was not MIchael's, He also stated that maybe there was also morphine in the IV to numb the pain of the terminally ill person. Which they probably never found out or they keeping it a secret. Blessings


These are all good points and I myself was not looking deep enough. The catheter is in place for people on the drip, that are going to be asleep for extended periods. I would not call a few hours extended enough. But do we have any reports about the catheter being in when they reached the house? I thought this was after the fact, and if that is true they may have inserted one at the hospital to try and drain urine for testing.

They found the catheter at home. If they had insert at the hospital that is another catheter , not the same one.. This does not add up at all. Like I said my doctor friend feels in a twilight zone, :lol:  he said how can this be possible. Someone who cannot sleep they administer propofol.He also stated administering 10 mins does not kill anyone, even if they administer it every night. YOur body will fall asleep, but when the 10 mins are up the person wakes up, he is not sleeping anymore, they feel groggy. So what benefit did this propofol do to Michael? Nothing.  There are so many other things that really works to fall asleep.  I told him if he has time ( since he is always so busy) to give me a list of medicine Michael could have taken to fall asleep. Again this propofol thing does not add up at all. Blessings
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I'm happy to be alive, I'm happy to be who I am.
Michael Jackson

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Image

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 12, 2011, 06:30:29 PM
Even my mother, who worked in the Red Cross (almost like a nurse), when she heard this story, said it does not make sense to give propofol for sleeping, there are many healthy ways to combat insomnia. I believe that Michael, who is a healthy and clever man, in any case would never have taken the propofol.
 But I do not think that anyone died in his place that day.

 Blessings
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Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 13, 2011, 06:21:12 PM
Why would Michael need to cancel rehearsals?  They were finished rehearsing.
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Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 13, 2011, 09:13:29 PM
Quote from: "Image"
Even my mother, who worked in the Red Cross (almost like a nurse), when she heard this story, said it does not make sense to give propofol for sleeping, there are many healthy ways to combat insomnia. I believe that Michael, who is a healthy and clever man, in any case would never have taken the propofol.
 But I do not think that anyone died in his place that day.

 Blessings

 Well, I am not going to say that. He may have let someone give him that drug. He was a terrible insomniac and not a doctor, so who knows. For surgeries he has had in the past he would have most definitely had some sort of anesthesia and he may have been fascinated by the effect.  Also, some crooked doctor may have told him that it was a good idea.
 But, don't get me wrong. I have nothing but hearsay to that effect, I am just speculating that even smart human beings do things they think are okay. One thing is for sure, I would not believe for one minute what the defense in the Conrad Murray case is selling. If Michael died, there is no way I could sell myself on the idea of him swallowing propofol or injecting himself with it. He is way smarter than that, because most ANYBODY is smarter that that.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.

Mark Twain

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 13, 2011, 09:14:48 PM
Quote from: "lyfelongMJfan"
Why would Michael need to cancel rehearsals?  They were finished rehearsing.

 I don't think they were done rehearsing. They were just done at the Staples Center. They still had props to work in. They surely would have rehearsed a couple of days at the 02.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.

Mark Twain

Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 13, 2011, 11:43:33 PM
Quote from: "Image"
Even my mother, who worked in the Red Cross (almost like a nurse), when she heard this story, said it does not make sense to give propofol for sleeping, there are many healthy ways to combat insomnia. I believe that Michael, who is a healthy and clever man, in any case would never have taken the propofol.
 But I do not think that anyone died in his place that day.

 Blessings

That's exactly right, propofol for sleeping makes no sense. It's not even as if they'd tried any other sleep meds before jumping to GA; just anti anxiety meds then boom, straight to knock out. There are better, safer meds that can be used for sleep. And like I said before, why go through using all the other meds first if using propofol is a typical option.We are being led to believe that nothing else worked, therefore propofol was the only option. Murray could have just put him out staight away as soon as he came home, no fuss, if this was as common (if unsafe) a scenario as Murray would have us believe. Why drag it out all night? This late attempt to put MJ out after all the other meds makes no sense unless the "pams" were all given in order to make him so out of it he wouldn't know propofol was being used. I don't think MJ gave consent for propofol at all. I think it's all an elaborate cover up to frame Michael Jackson as a drug addict and thus make his "death" his fault and inevitable. I really wish those cctv tapes would turn up...

Also,why the inconsistencies in testimonies? Alvarez says he was instructed by Murray to "clean up", to pick up all the syringes, bottles etc and yet in day 4 testimony from investigator Elissa Fleak she mentions finding a propofol bottle inside a cut open IV bag (?), plus other drugs including lidocaine, diazepam plus prescriptions- the list is extensive. Did Alvarez lie, just not get it all or was he caught and it was confiscated and replaced in it’s original position in the room? And a lot of this stuff was found and tagged on the 29th not the 25th . So four days between the "death" and the final evidence bagging. What the hell?!
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions but no one is entitled to their own facts" ~ Nobel Laureate, Elizabeth Blackburn

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Re: Timeline for Sleep
January 14, 2011, 02:18:14 PM
To reading_on.

It 's true: also a clever man can make mistakes. However, because of everything I've seen and with the faith I have in Michael, I think he is alive. Sure, I could be wrong, that's just my opinion.

Did you read what I wrote on the topic "Milkman" in "All odd things"? I'd like to have your opinion about it.

Ciao (= bye)
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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