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Could he have commissioned some work by Gunter von Hagens/others to create a "semi-human" dummy which could fool experienced medics, more so if Murray was interfering and conveniently keeping them away? Could then the coroner have been paid off to fake the autopsy or a different corpse used at UCLA? Or is the whole event staged, including the preliminary hearings and possible trial, and done with the federal government "blessings"? But this really does not fit well with the NWO message... and could place significant restrictions on what can or cannot be done!
I say...No body was used. Dummy only. Autopsy is complete fabrication, as are all reports from UCLA.Body temp is only ONE factor used when determining time of death. ONE, not ONLY.
Quote from: "bec"I say...No body was used. Dummy only. Autopsy is complete fabrication, as are all reports from UCLA.Body temp is only ONE factor used when determining time of death. ONE, not ONLY.But they didn't need to keep the room warm for a dummy. The paramedics couldn't recognize MJ and I remember they said that he looked like an old Asian guy :lol: It's not too hard to find a dead person. So I go with the real body in the room theory.
Quote from: "PureLove"Quote from: "bec"I say...No body was used. Dummy only. Autopsy is complete fabrication, as are all reports from UCLA.Body temp is only ONE factor used when determining time of death. ONE, not ONLY.But they didn't need to keep the room warm for a dummy. The paramedics couldn't recognize MJ and I remember they said that he looked like an old Asian guy :lol: It's not too hard to find a dead person. So I go with the real body in the room theory.Classic diversion. Warming the room would have zero effect on hiding the fact that someone had died hours or days earlier. Zero.No effect. We need to understand that forensic science is not that simple nor easily manipulated. There are many physical factors that are used to determine time of death, presence and progression of rigor, pressure and consistency of the fluid in the eyeballs, presence and location of digested food in the gut, and more... and the media is trying to make you believe that room temperature throws a wrench in the coroner's work. It doesn't and wouldn't.As far as the testimony, the ambulance pic doesn't even come close to matching the description the EMTs have given. In any case, the EMTs have to be actors if the 911 call was fake, which is almost certainly the case. Real EMTs don't show up after you make a fake 911 call.We need to move past these points, we are getting tripped up on easily debunked theories.
Quote from: "bec"Quote from: "PureLove"Quote from: "bec"I say...No body was used. Dummy only. Autopsy is complete fabrication, as are all reports from UCLA.Body temp is only ONE factor used when determining time of death. ONE, not ONLY.But they didn't need to keep the room warm for a dummy. The paramedics couldn't recognize MJ and I remember they said that he looked like an old Asian guy :lol: It's not too hard to find a dead person. So I go with the real body in the room theory.Classic diversion. Warming the room would have zero effect on hiding the fact that someone had died hours or days earlier. Zero.No effect. We need to understand that forensic science is not that simple nor easily manipulated. There are many physical factors that are used to determine time of death, presence and progression of rigor, pressure and consistency of the fluid in the eyeballs, presence and location of digested food in the gut, and more... and the media is trying to make you believe that room temperature throws a wrench in the coroner's work. It doesn't and wouldn't.As far as the testimony, the ambulance pic doesn't even come close to matching the description the EMTs have given. In any case, the EMTs have to be actors if the 911 call was fake, which is almost certainly the case. Real EMTs don't show up after you make a fake 911 call.We need to move past these points, we are getting tripped up on easily debunked theories.I agree with you Bec - all the way. I feel Michael (and TS) wants us to look OUTSIDE the box - and not just outside the box with our noses pressed right up against it either In this hoax, things are never as they first appear to be. We have been witnessing a very clever display of the art of illusion - something that has never been attempted on such a large scale. That's my spin on it anyway, but of course I don't expect people to see it how I see it. We should all rejoice in our own individuality and this is exactly what has made Michael stand out from the crowd from the time he was born. Love, peace & blessings, emerald xo
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login<TMZ>Law enforcement sources tell TMZ the L.A. County Coroner cannot pinpoint the time of Michael Jackson's death ... but paramedics say when they arrived they believed he was dead for at least an hour and maybe longer.Dr. Conrad Murray's statement to LAPD detectives lays out a timeline in which Dr. Murray administered Propofol at 10:40 AM and then ten minutes later (10:50) he walked out of the room, went to the bathroom and returned two minutes later (10:52) to find Jackson was not breathing. He did not have anyone call 911 until 12:21 PM ... approximately an hour-and-a-half later.<TMZ>This entire timeline changed during this prelim trial... and keeps changing... quote from court 1/4/11: "Deputy District Attorney, David Walgren said he will rely on Murray's statements to police, as well as text messages, phone records and expert testimony to show the doctor should stand trial.He said evidence will show Murray waited at least 21 minutes to call 911 and ordered a bodyguard to help him clean up evidence before summoning help. In the most favorable scenario, Walgren said, Murray waited at least nine minutes before calling paramedics." So what happened to the hour and a half, Deputy? <TMZ>Sources say cops are suspicious of Dr. Murray's account. They say when Dr. Murray was interviewed by them two days after Jackson died -- his lawyer by his side -- the doctor's account seemed "scripted."So when did Jackson really die? Rigor mortis typically doesn't set in for at least 3 hours, and often longer.<TMZ>That's not what these sources say: "Stiffening of the corpse occurs between just 30 minutes and 3 hours after death. The process is called rigor mortis." You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login "Rigor ... normally begins roughly two hours after death and can last for anything from twenty to thirty hours." You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login "Rigor starts forming between 1-2 hours after death" You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. "The body enters rigor mortis within fifteen minutes after death and continues to stiffen for up to fifteen hours." You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login <TMZ>If rigor mortis has not set in, the only way to approximate time of death is by body temperature. <TMZ>I think I proved with the four sources above, if rigor hadn't set in at all... the body hasn't been dead very long at all. And temp isn't FAR from the only way to approximate t.o.d. If you consider rigor starts with the eyelids and jaw and progressively spreads through the body, I have a very very hard time believing that a paramedic who checked pupil response and inserted the tracheal tube didn't notice rigor in the eyelids and jaw? By personal experience, I'm going to attest that rigor in the eyelids sets in FAST. If you've ever experienced a dead pet you know. A paramedic is NOT going to be fooled by a dead body. Nor will there be any question about it. Our trial paramedics refuse to even come out and say it, they just suggest that they suspected he was dead. I mean, when you consider the rigor in the eyelids... you're either dead or not. There's no suspecting anything. Even if they simply went along to appease Murray, you are not going to be able to insert a trachael tube into a corpse very easily.<TMZ> Once a person dies, their temperature eventually rises or falls to the temperature of the environment. For example, if Jackson were in a 70 degree room, his body temp would drop to 70. The body temperature typically drops a degree to a degree and a half per hour, but it's dependent on the ambient temperature.Here's the problem -- when paramedics arrived the room was sweltering. So Jackson's body temperature could register in the 90 degree range, even if he were dead for a long time. But we're told paramedics did not get a read on his body temp because they were busy performing CPR. <TMZ>I fail to see the "problem" TMZ. Considering body temp in a corpse will drop 1 to 1 and 1/2 degrees per hour until it matches the room temperature, and the rate of this temp drop can be affected by the room temp, a body in a 90* room would take longer to cool, and a body in a 30* room less time to cool.... you have still 8 hours for a 98* body to reach 90*, and no one has suggested that MJ died at 4am. In any case, there is no problem regardless of how long dead and how hot the room as forensics has a formula to deal with this. Here's an online calculator to determine time of death using variables including room temperature: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login Imagine that.<TMZ>Bottom line -- it's possible Jackson could have been dead much longer than Dr. Murray said. There's no scientific way of knowing.<TMZ> :shock: :? :lol: :roll: :| Yes of course there's many scientific ways of knowing. Here are some:QuoteThe eyes of a victim can also hold answers to the time of death, as a thin cloudy film is developed over the eye within 3 hours after death has occurred. The eyeballs become softer as a result of less fluid pressure behind the eye and the degree to which this has occurred can be used as a measure of the time since death. QuoteThe pooling of the blood can be a vital clue in determining the time of death and is known as hypostasis. This occurs when the blood ceases flowing, settling in the lowest parts of the body and in turn, causing the skin to become pink and red in colour. This process is complete in up to 6 hours after death.QuoteThe digestive system and gut contents of a victim can provide important clues to the time of death of a victim. Chewed food will firstly pass through the oesophagus and then down into the stomach within seconds of the initial swallowing. After 3 hours, the food then leaves the stomach and heads toward the small intestines. 6 hours after eating a meal, the food will have traveled half way through the small intestines and begin moving through the large intestine. Where the victim's small intestine is empty, it suggests that the victim ate his or her last meal approximately 8 hours before death. The digestive process usually takes a bit more than a day [/color]
The eyes of a victim can also hold answers to the time of death, as a thin cloudy film is developed over the eye within 3 hours after death has occurred. The eyeballs become softer as a result of less fluid pressure behind the eye and the degree to which this has occurred can be used as a measure of the time since death.
The pooling of the blood can be a vital clue in determining the time of death and is known as hypostasis. This occurs when the blood ceases flowing, settling in the lowest parts of the body and in turn, causing the skin to become pink and red in colour. This process is complete in up to 6 hours after death.
The digestive system and gut contents of a victim can provide important clues to the time of death of a victim. Chewed food will firstly pass through the oesophagus and then down into the stomach within seconds of the initial swallowing. After 3 hours, the food then leaves the stomach and heads toward the small intestines. 6 hours after eating a meal, the food will have traveled half way through the small intestines and begin moving through the large intestine. Where the victim's small intestine is empty, it suggests that the victim ate his or her last meal approximately 8 hours before death. The digestive process usually takes a bit more than a day
Yes. So the EMTs are lying on the stand. The pic is proof of that.And we can't say oh well the ambulance ic is a fake.If the ambulance pic is fake then Ben committed fraud. He SOLD that pic to ET for est. $500K. That's federal level fraud.So ET hasn't filed fraud complaints against Ben. No one in 19 months on the forum has been able to prove that pic is fake. No One.I have to then draw the conclusion that the pic is real. (I have always thought it was real). To support the pic being real:It was sold to a major news media company. Proof it was sold: photographer's spoken videotaped statement and the photo appearing 6/26/09 on the cover of commercial magazines.Upon inspection, no photoshop lines or irregularities are present.The badges on the EMTs arms are the correct, current LAFD badge.The equipment pictured in the back round of the ambulance interior is consistent with equipment inside ambulances at current, verified by currently employed paramedics.The equipment being used on the "patient" is consistent with the situation, as verified by professionals currently employed in the field.We have 3 separate video taped footages of the scene that day, from three different angles of the exact moment when the photographer takes these ambulance photos through the side window by pressing the camera against the glass. By using both films, the entire sequence of events can be witnessed from start to finish.The reflection visible in the photo is consistant with the scene on video.To support the pic being fake:Brian Oxman said he was "95% sure it was most likely photoshopped." This means he is speculating....and that's it really. The most logical conclusion that can be reached when considering all of the information is MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ doesn't indicate that the photo is a fake, MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ only suggests that the MJ is a fake.
Quote from: "bec"Yes. So the EMTs are lying on the stand. The pic is proof of that.And we can't say oh well the ambulance ic is a fake.If the ambulance pic is fake then Ben committed fraud. He SOLD that pic to ET for est. $500K. That's federal level fraud.So ET hasn't filed fraud complaints against Ben. No one in 19 months on the forum has been able to prove that pic is fake. No One.I have to then draw the conclusion that the pic is real. (I have always thought it was real). To support the pic being real:It was sold to a major news media company. Proof it was sold: photographer's spoken videotaped statement and the photo appearing 6/26/09 on the cover of commercial magazines.Upon inspection, no photoshop lines or irregularities are present.The badges on the EMTs arms are the correct, current LAFD badge.The equipment pictured in the back round of the ambulance interior is consistent with equipment inside ambulances at current, verified by currently employed paramedics.The equipment being used on the "patient" is consistent with the situation, as verified by professionals currently employed in the field.We have 3 separate video taped footages of the scene that day, from three different angles of the exact moment when the photographer takes these ambulance photos through the side window by pressing the camera against the glass. By using both films, the entire sequence of events can be witnessed from start to finish.The reflection visible in the photo is consistant with the scene on video.To support the pic being fake:Brian Oxman said he was "95% sure it was most likely photoshopped." This means he is speculating....and that's it really. The most logical conclusion that can be reached when considering all of the information is MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ doesn't indicate that the photo is a fake, MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ only suggests that the MJ is a fake.Bec, on this I am not with you as to the scenery and the resulting video tapes and pictures. They are all contradicting each other. In one video you see pylones around the firetruck, in the next one they are gone This is a result of out-of-sequence editing. The ending of the footage is cut and pasted from the beginning of the events. Someone cut the beginning and placed it at the end. I have reviewed the tapes extensively and this is clear from the footage. At the end of the tape (beginning) we see the part of the footage where the Fireman is setting up the cones and the tour bus has just arrived., one tape has the tourist bus standing in the middle of the street aside the firetruck, one tape has them parked behind the red car This is simply caused by perspective, ie where the camera is located. The part in the footage that shows this is blurry, fast moving, and the camera is bouncing around because the man holding it is running. The view you are refering to is the result of one captured frame which is obscurred by rapid movement and is not clear. Regardless, I reviewed it as well and do not see clear evidence of this discrepancy. . The reflection of the red car is not correct since the photographer is shooting while the ambulance is not exactly parallel to the Toyota. again, this is due to perspectives and angle of the shot. Reflections have a tricky habit of "bending" over metallic objects such as car hoods.In one video the darkhaired guy is turning from the back door to run to his car (see also the "proof of the picture shooting"), in the other he's aside the blond (Chris Weiss) that presses his camera towards the side window These are two different men. If you watch the tape over and over and over and keep your eye on each man as you view, it becomes quite clear, there are absolutely 100% sure two men that cross behind the ambulance as it backs out. One runs away from the scene, one runs around the side, and thus results in taking the photograph. One man is wearing shorts, the other is wearing long pants..The shadows on the garbage bins and street were different in shape and length in the different takes. In an outdoor environment, there can and are multiple light sources that cause shadows to not always coincide with each other.The last obvious proof of the picture manipulations is the comparison of the "old" picture and the "new" picture. The turn light on the red car slips from the exact middle of the tire to the left (where it should actually be placed).Again, talking about reflections of a reflection, which are tricky to nail down, predict, and determine where they "should" be when you are dealing with rounded metallic objects, windows, and camera angles all over the place. In one shot the bag in front of the EMT's leg is open, in the other it is closed - how's that feasible in a real shooting just milliseconds apart when the EMT's position is exactly the same? (see thread on the new ambulance pic)I'm all over that thread and I haven't seen this, would you do a pic thing here and illustrate what you mean about open bag vs. closed bag? This is a very good photoshop job done. The red car is a Toyota Prius and may be belonging either to Michael or to Ben Evenstad who told a story about Michael taking his kids in it for a joyride.Yeah but there's a lot of red Toyota Prius's in the world.
