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Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 09, 2010, 08:13:08 PM
@ hazzely  exactly thats the point , let me put it that way , for a continuse drug infusion you need to maintain an i.v line , right , now according to tmz dr murray was giving propofol for past 10 days , i suppose he did the same , inserted i.v line but once you place a cannula or haplock you cant insert  it in the same vessels it become useless you have  to puncture other vein  , now the problem is , practically there are not as many ideal  sites to maintain i.v because either the veins are not straight or are too  deep , so i assume dr murray must have left haplock in mj veins , because of the above mention reason second for the pain it cause to the patient 3rd  michael hate needles so there is no reason to bother your patient  taking in and out every night and for that matter you need a nurse ,as physicians are not as good as they are ,  and can you expect a person who was doing a cpr was first time  could do that  correctly without double pricks  ?? besides a consultant rarely  maintain i.v lines  but juniors doctors do it  but again  rare ,in any case you need an  expert assistance , now if mj had one in his vessles how can he perform ,
  by the way propofol is extreme short acting drug , if dr murray was giving him to treat insomnia it must be in infusion form , you can take a look a video  i posted sometimes back how within minutes the infusion stops , the patient regains consciousness


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 base line .... things dont add up ,i hope i m getting  my point across
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Hazzely

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 09, 2010, 09:04:34 PM
Quote from: "mjj_fan"
@ hazzely  exactly thats the point , let me put it that way , for a continuse drug infusion you need to maintain an i.v line , right , now according to tmz dr murray was giving propofol for past 10 days , i suppose he did the same , inserted i.v line but once you place a cannula or haplock you cant insert  it in the same vessels it become useless you have  to puncture other vein  , now the problem is , practically there are not as many ideal  sites to maintain i.v because either the veins are not straight or are too  deep , so i assume dr murray must have left haplock in mj veins , because of the above mention reason second for the pain it cause to the patient 3rd  michael hate needles so there is no reason to bother your patient  taking in and out every night and for that matter you need a nurse ,as physicians are not as good as they are ,  and can you expect a person who was doing a cpr was first time  could do that  correctly without double pricks  ?? besides a consultant rarely  maintain i.v lines  but juniors doctors do it  but again  rare ,in any case you need an  expert assistance , now if mj had one in his vessles how can he perform ,
  by the way propofol is extreme short acting drug , if dr murray was giving him to treat insomnia it must be in infusion form , you can take a look a video  i posted sometimes back how within minutes the infusion stops , the patient regains consciousness


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 base line .... things dont add up ,i hope i m getting  my point across

I suppose Murray had to insert the IV everytime he gave Michael propofol since you have to be crazy to keep the heplock in place and dance with it..no way, i refuse to believe it
Even though I don't think Michael was given propofol, I don't know who did they perform the autopsy on but that report can't be his..
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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May your spirit keep the freedom of a butterfly in spring and your heart be filled always with the joys of simple things. May your essence claim the freshness of the new laid morning dew. All of this...and more...
Forever, http]
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PJ4MJ

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 09, 2010, 10:37:30 PM
Quote
4- The body’s height is 69 inches = 5.75 ft = 175.26 cm ( Michael’s height according to his driver’s license & passport is 5.9 ft =179.83 cm )

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (and if I'm beating a dead horse from other posts I haven't read, I apologize), but ...

69 inches is the same as 5 feet, 9 inches (12 inches per foot).  So I see no discrepancy between what the autopsy says the decedent's height is and what MJ's driver's license shows ("5-09").

Maybe the problem lies in using the metric system instead of the standard (US) system to calculate?

I know this is a minor point in the whole argument but I've heard that mentioned a few times as a clue.  Just wanted to put it out there.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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MissG

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 10:41:12 AM
5.09 does not equal to 5.9
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 11:16:37 AM
thats what i said its not possible to perform with them in place  on one hand and  on otherhand inserting and reinserting them everyday , anyways i believe we only  know half truth , half ..still a mystery, hopefully the court trails would reveal complete
Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 12:22:39 PM by mjj_fan
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Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 11:31:40 AM
@pj4j its fine you pointed out that but height is measured in centimeters  more often  during  autopsy but you can  still expect minor errors with plus minus 1 cm than actual height of the deceased  and it  depends upon who and how  measurements have been taken , may be it was correctly done during autopsy than the data collected during court  trials ,  1-2cm  error can be can ignored but yes 10 inches or cm one cant
   sometimes the physician during the autopsy overlook cetain important  clues thats why exhumation is performed  later when you are suspicious about  missed finding during autopsy
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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MissG

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 01:11:49 PM
Who made the AR? a student?
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

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PJ4MJ

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: "mjj_fan"
@pj4j its fine you pointed out that but height is measured in centimeters  more often  during  autopsy but you can  still expect minor errors with plus minus 1 cm than actual height of the deceased  and it  depends upon who and how  measurements have been taken , may be it was correctly done during autopsy than the data collected during court  trials ,  1-2cm  error can be can ignored but yes 10 inches or cm one cant
   sometimes the physician during the autopsy overlook cetain important  clues thats why exhumation is performed  later when you are suspicious about  missed finding during autopsy

Thanks for explaining that better, mjj_fan.  I'm not well-versed in medical procedures but I can see what you're saying about the discrepancy now, if autopsies are most likely done by centimeters.  That actually raises another question about the autopsy report (for me, anyway), because they didn't record it as cm.  It reads "measures 69 inches in length."  Wouldn't it make more sense to record the cm and avoid having to make the conversion?

Anyway, even from my layman's perspective, I agree that there is way too much that just doesn't make sense in this report, starting with the simple fact that positive ID was made simply by "visual comparison to his California Drivers License." And as someone else pointed out, he was living in Vegas at the time so it's questionable whether that was even current and suitable for comparison.

Something else that struck me funny (non-medical) was the scene description.  It says that the bedroom where the decedent had been resting was not his usual bedroom, which was down the hall.  If MJ had a doctor coming over every night, why wouldn't he be set up for treatment in his usual bedroom?  Why be in this other room?  It makes no sense to me unless, of course, this was a staged scene or a room where someone else was being treated.  And there's nothing of a personal nature in there.  I believe Michael knew photos would be published and after the Neverland nightmare, he was extremely careful to protect his privacy.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 05:59:05 PM
Quote from: "mjj_fan"
Hi mj2981958
                     He did , on Tmz live ,I.v line on  medial left leg???  i didnt know that ,Im surprised why dr Murray did that ,the usual site to place a catheter are the upper limbs ,but ofcourse you can expect anything of him...  silly person  should have known the joints are the worst sites specially for a dancer , how could someone perform  with them in place ??? , as i mention very earlier in one of my post and i m writting it down one more time , its very painful to pull out and  put the catheter everyday , so they are left for maximum of 3 days , while they are still in your vessels one cant even lift up his limb dancing is out of question   besides everytime you prick a vessel it collapse and that site is no longer feasible to draw the blood even  
    i have seen drug abusers with  multiple punctute marks on arm  . neck and legs less often but dorsum of the foot specially between the big toe and digits .... well  in my practice i have never seen them  may be  someone  else encounter a patient with wounds in that area

Ok, I got it. Thanks!
So, to answer the previous questions on why Murray  would have choose to put the I.V line in Michael’s lower limb:

-“ He complained of being dehydrated that night. Do you believe is it possible that dehydration made difficult the arm catheterization, so he had to do it in his leg? ”

Nop, If he would’ve been dehydrated at the point of having his veins collapsed, such procedure is difficult no matter what limbs you choose to catheterize.


-“ If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.”

Since every move would be absolutely painful, keep on doing your everyday activities (rehearsing in this case) with an open catheter is just IMPOSSIBLE, NO WAY (that's why I warned about the silliness of the first question!).


-“ If you can’t leave the catheter, you put the line in the leg to keep hidden not the line, but the punctures. They would’ve been a lot of punctures in different stages of healing.”

Possible, yet put-on/remove-off the catheter on a daily basis is very painful for the patient and you need to find a new place/vassel to catheterize each time (in this case, every night).

 
So after your answers I assume that  Dr. Murray wanted to keep the punctures hidden, or he had to start with the lower limbs veins because he already used the veins of his upper limbs. Any other ideas?
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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"Won't you just let me be?..."

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 06:33:04 PM
@ pj4j
           But i want to add something , i mention height  measurements in cm mostly but not always , few forensic pathologist prefer cm others inches ,but i admit  there are chances of making errors and its something not unusual  , but in this high profile case the autopsy lasted 7 hours versus normal which  take 3 hours  maximum , so i believe they did a thorough examination  here is a link of regular autopsy sheet you can view it  

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@ gema   NO  its not done by students its by forensic pathologist in criminal cases and pathologist resident and seniour doctors in in-hospital set up , students can  only observe or assist the physicians
Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 07:25:06 PM by mjj_fan
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Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 06:48:27 PM
Quote from: "mjj29081958"
-“ If you can leave the I.V in “Stand by” into the vein until the next use, it should be in a hidden place of the body, so the arms wouldn’t be a good idea. So you put the line in the leg.”

Since every move would be absolutely painful, keep on doing your everyday activities (rehearsing in this case) with an open catheter is just IMPOSSIBLE, NO WAY (that's why I warned about the silliness of the first question!).
IVs should never ever be too painful to move. If I put an IV in an AC, the patient can move their arm all they want with no pain. And if someone puts an IV in my AC, the same applies. I've had numerous IVs and given hundreds more. They should never be painful upon movement.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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loma

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 07:00:31 PM
Arthritis of the fingernails?  :?
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Michael, we\'ll never stop loving you.
We\'re all wishing you well, and wishing you home.

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 07:01:48 PM
@mj2951958
   
     To answer your last question i need to know exactly how many days mj was on propofol , and then count the puncture wounds as mention in the report, while examining the wounds, description must be accurate in every detail and situation should be noted with reference to fixed anatomical points , various terms are used to describe severity of an injury , whether a wound is due to accident , suicide or murder is determined by a synthesis of different findings including its nature , severity , site , position of body clothing and other collateral police finding

  One thing worth mentioning ,post mortem finding should never be discussed and reporters should be refered to the police press liasison officer . i remember reading a case back in 1957  when the victim of Evans and Allens who were the last 2 criminals in Uk to hang , had been battered and stabbed, at no time during the investigation was the stabbing mention until alluded to , incriminatingly by Evans in his statement to  police .
   What i know these autopsy reports become public records if some crime is involve OR once  on going investigation is done , now you can think either ways ! to me it seems when the report was released the invesigation was completed , but then trials should have  begun much earlier but why they  keep on saying its an on going investigation i dont get it

  Although its unethical to release autopsy pictures to public besides above all  not everyone bear to view them but i have been told  both autopsy  report and pictures of criminal  nature is a public record in    United states and probably that was the reason  Ms Katherine was much concerned about it

 but if some one wants to be 100% sure of that he /she can email  and get  L.A coroner s opinion on releasing the pictures
Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 07:12:10 PM by mjj_fan
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PJ4MJ

Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 07:03:33 PM
Quote from: "mjj_fan"
@ pj4j
           But i want to add something , i mention height  measurements in cm mostly but not always , few forensic pathologist prefer cm others inches ,but i admit  there are chances of making errors and its something not unusual  , but in this high profile case the autopsy lasted 7 hours versus normal which  take 3 hours  maximum , so i believe they did a thorough examination  here is a link of regular autopsy sheet you can view it  

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Thanks for the link.  I saw the standard measurements but as you said, I guess it's up to the person doing the autopsy and what they're comfortable with.  I really appreciate you and others with medical knowledge giving input here.  I feel at such a disadvantage not knowing the terminology and it takes forever to google and make sense of everything.  Even then, I can't deduce the "intangibles" that someone with experience can bring to the discussion.  Thanks again!
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Re: Debunking the Autopsy Report
July 10, 2010, 07:06:00 PM
@ loma i mention above there is nothing as arthritis of FINGER NAILS ,i think someone misguided the person who made the original post


 @ mj2981958  why did you underline those 3 paragraphs ? did someone ask you those question  just wondering but in anycase you might have read all the links i mention above , if the puncture wounds were by i.v lines i dont think dorsum of foot specially  a site between big toe and second digit make sense , like i said earlier , its a very poor decision on anyones part to have cannula at or near joint , plus the importance of venous cut down or CVP lines comes when patient is collapsed by dehydration or  whatever reason plus  with no superficial  veins  , uum  venous cut down comes first Cvp only done by physicians ,in  in- hospital settings and in complicated cases
Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 07:29:41 PM by mjj_fan
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