Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Welcome! => Introduce yourself => Topic started by: larry141094 on January 30, 2013, 04:53:25 AM
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So after 3 years, im back... in those 3 years, nothing at the site has changed. Im bringing this up simply because there is a big issue with how these "investigations" are being carried out.
What the investigations consist of:
- Quote mining
- Missinterpreted "clues"
- Overreaction
- Confirmation bias
- Lack of sensible debate
And probably the most important part
- Rejection of facts and common sense
What the site NEEDS:
- Objectivness in everything
- Rational discussion of pictures/quotes/evidence
- A willingness to accept new knowledge
- And SCIENTIFIC REASONING
So what do i mean by all this? And why am i bothering in the first place? Well i like to think of myself as a Philosophical Scientist, in terms of the way a view the world and the things in it, for example you cannot obtain truth without looking at the evidence and you cannot look at the evidence without logically working through it. In other words, Science, Truth, Knowledge, History and Philosophy are what matter the most and with MJ being my favourite solo artist, i of course want the truth.
Now i will be honest, i am not a believer, however that does not mean MJ did not fake his death. It just means that i haven't had the time to look at what little evidence we have... and even THAT should not be a conclusive answer...
I think i speak for most people here when i say, the truth is the most important thing here and it is our duty as fans and (hopefully) rational human beings to pierce the veil and find the truth. Of course there are those who are 100% sure they know, which is all good and well, but anyone who is rational should know that in obtaining truth has a side of uncertainty and any curious mind shouldnt assume they know they answers, they should assume they dont.
So in that spirit, i am here, i assume i dont know everything and that we must look at the evidence and rationalise our beliefs according to what we know. At the present, i believe Michael Jackson is long dead, however, it is logical and completly reasonable to assume that i am wrong and so i wouldnt be honest with myself if i wasnt here debating the issue and helping discard what is slowing any sort of truth being discovered. Because it is a universal fact that if no new information is being brought in, over time things will become more random and unpredictable...
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So after 3 years, im back... in those 3 years, nothing at the site has changed. Im bringing this up simply because there is a big issue with how these "investigations" are being carried out.
- Quote mining
- Missinterpreted "clues"
- Overreaction
- Confirmation bias
- Lack of sensible debate
And probably the most important part
- Rejection of facts and common sense
So by your post one can only assume that YOUR brand of philosophical science is based in the premis of generalising on a grand scale and pigeon holing members opinions into the categories / barriers you have graciously outlined?
Yes, there is much idle chatter chatter here, but accompanied by much valuable research. Many answers come from doubts / exploration of theories / hypothesis etc
I'm sure I don't need to tell you that your post comes off as incredibly patronizing! :icon_rolleyes:
Lack of sensible debate... Rejection of common sense!?!? Pffftt what a joke!
If everyone here is insensible and rejects common sense as you put it, why don't you enlighten us and give everyone the answers!!!!
:icon_twisted:
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You didnt read the whole thing... obviously. And no not by MY reasoning, by Academia's reasoning. I go by the rules that allow us to discover truth, the part of my post that you quoted was the issues which prevents truth from being found.
As i said, im here because logically i could easily be wrong, the standards of science and logic bind any rational search for the truth and that includes mine.
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Aside your self branded 'academic' reasoning, 'simple and basic' reasoning shows that MJ never died in 25.06.09
The laughable irony is that millions of (self inflated not mentioning names lol) 'academics' of the world believe MJ is dead in spite of SIMPLE COMMON SENSE saying otherwise.
I respect and agree to your notion of theories need conclusive proof to be substantiated. (Although you said it in other words) But where there is no evidence on the WHY and HOW, then only scenarios can be thrown around until more light / evidence is shed and there is absolutely NO SHAME in that. It's called brainstorming.
Oh, and many 'academics' unabashedly engage in such.
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So larry.....I'm curious.....what is your Null hypothesis?
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Im here to find that evidence myself.
The issue i have with your statement is your position that the view of the majority (AKA common sense) is a rediculous view to have. This kind of thinking destroys anything close to rational discussion from the get go.
The next thing is you said (i am assuming, correct me if im wrong) that there is no conclusive evidence to the why or how regarding the death of Michael Jackson... well the why is obviously unanswerable in terms of what i know. But the how has been established...
The final thing i just want to clear up is your missinterpretation of the burden of proof, in a rational argument, if one makes a claim, they must back it up with evidence, the more extraordinary the claim, the larger the amount of evidence that is required. It is claimed by the Corners office in LA that Michael Jackson died of Acute Propofol intoxication, death in this case isnt really out of the ordinary. However, the claim IS backed up by credible evidence. This is where the counter claim must start and thus far i haven't seen a claim that refutes the evidence.
In reply to Adi, firstly no hypothesis is null, that is an unfair assertion and secondly i have no hypothesis, i haven't really looked at enough counter claims to make a fair one. My position is simple, i believe that Michael Jackson is dead, according to what i know, my position remains open (as should everyones) to new evidence to the contrary.
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In reply to Adi, firstly no hypothesis is null, that is an unfair assertion and secondly i have no hypothesis, i haven't really looked at enough counter claims to make a fair one. My position is simple, i believe that Michael Jackson is dead, according to what i know, my position remains open (as should everyones) to new evidence to the contrary.
Since you raised the matter of us needing to use scientific reasoning, a Null hypothesis in science is the "default hypothesis" or the "default theory" and that default position depends on what you are trying to prove.
So then, the bolded part quoted above IS your Null hypothesis I would say......after all it was you who stated in your original post that this site needs SCIENTIFIC REASONING, rational discussion and objectiveness .....so I thought you would probably understand the simple basics of a Null hypothesis to scientific reasoning, discovery and experimentation.
Anyway......carry on larry.
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The issue i have with your statement is your position that the view of the majority (AKA common sense) is a rediculous view to have. This kind of thinking destroys anything close to rational discussion from the get go.
I am going to plead ignorant to understanding what you mean. Because in my part of the world common sense almost always = rationality.
The next thing is you said (i am assuming, correct me if im wrong) that there is no conclusive evidence to the why or how regarding the death of Michael Jackson... well the why is obviously unanswerable in terms of what i know. But the how has been established...
No, there are numerous theories on how, DWD, Double, Dummy, Real MJ.
The final thing i just want to clear up is your missinterpretation of the burden of proof, in a rational argument, if one makes a claim, they must back it up with evidence, the more extraordinary the claim, the larger the amount of evidence that is required.
Naturally. Extraordinary is subjective. What is extraordinary to one, may not be to the other. I:e. DWD completely plausible to one investagator, and to another completely absurd. What is extraordinary and what is ordinary? We are afterall talkign about Michael Jackson here.
It is claimed by the Corners office in LA that Michael Jackson died of Acute Propofol intoxication, death in this case isnt really out of the ordinary. However, the claim IS backed up by credible evidence.
If you considered fake, fraudlent, doctored AR's and various statements as CREDIBLE edivdence. Lol
This is where the counter claim must start and thus far i haven't seen a claim that refutes the evidence.
With all due respect are you looking at them thoroughly? Even if you are have you sighted the originals personally? Those documents from Coroners office are as substantial as verbal claims that they are false? They are AS true as claims by hoaxers that they are false. All statements whether they be on paper from camp MJ or from hoaxers have the same weight, as both have no proof.
My position is simple, i believe that Michael Jackson is dead, according to what i know, my position remains open (as should everyones) to new evidence to the contrary.
What do you know? I am keen to know? Are you literally speaking of the laughable coverage that he is dead? Riddiculous interviews with family and press releases accompaied by ludacris documents such as those that are fraudulent / fake from the coronors office? I guess my point is how are they any more reliable / substantial than claims from believers / hoaxers saying he is alive?
DO you see what I am saying? They are both just claims (one on paper from coroner, or TV from family) the other verbal from hoaxers who push the boundaries of the garbage that is rolled out on TV.
You are an MJ fan. Just remember that just because you read it in a magazine or see it on a TV screen don't make it factual...
In addition to the information from the coroner re: propofol intoxification this is but the mere tip of the ice berg. What about clues of DH from the horses mouth himself, in TII, Lyrics, Interviews pre DOD, etc. Obvious green screen funeral. Ridiculous Memorial. etc etc etc. I could go on for eternity. How do you reconcile that? (Rhetorical, don't bother)
It is clear you see different to many here on the forum. I'm not going to go on and on flogging a dead horse because its obvious he is not dead, in fact there is NIL evidence to date he is dead and more that he is alive. I will however, wish you all the best in your endeavours to find your version of the truth. Good Luck :smiley-vault-misc-150:
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Adi, an opinion does not require ANY evidence, thats why i stated "i believe, according to what i know". Evidence is required when you make a claim or an assertion.
MJ BeLIEver, common sense is not rationality (unfortunatly, look it up)
That said my issue with the things you listed are simply that they are theories to explain away actual evidence. If you claim legal documents fake, there needs to be evidence of that claim. The way you view MJ's relatives on TV is a subjective matter and no one can really know anything based on pure speculation.
When i say extraordinary i am using a level of interpretation, if i say "The car i own is black", that is a claim and not much evidence is required, mainly because there's no reason that any person would lie about the colour of their car, but also because black cars are a common thing. However if i say "I was abducted by aliens", a verbal story just wont cut it, because it is not a common event.
You understand what i mean? Yes there are theories and many of them are logical... however i cant start theorising until the current theory is displaced. And it is on the burden of the ones making the claim to displace it
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If you claim legal documents fake, there needs to be evidence of that claim.
Michael's middle name is JOE, not Joseph. By LAW, this legal middle name, which is stated on his passport and child molestation indictment, MUST be stated exactly on the death certificate. It's not there, it says Joseph. The bull shit some have tried to throw in about it's not a problem to make a middle name shorter or longer, is crap. Let's say my middle name is Miss, my DC will not state Mississippi. Plus they claim to have identified the body by his driver's licence, which states JOE (if it even exists because to my knowledge Michael doesn't even HAVE a DL...thank the Lord), so how fuck that up and write down Joseph? A coroner's office assuming? I don't think so. Plus we have La Toya claiming she signed the damn thing! Your scientific reasoning on this?
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It is claimed by the Corners office in LA that Michael Jackson died of Acute Propofol intoxication, death in this case isnt really out of the ordinary. However, the claim IS backed up by credible evidence.
A question, your you've read the autopsy report?, and when it comes to the death of MJ is an excellent staging worthy of all those who swallow everything that look and listen for the media.
Congratulations to Michael Jackson for his latest show :th_bravo:
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Larry if you think Michael is dead what are you doing here?? I won't even bother to explain why I believe Michael is alive, for what?? I don't wanna lose my time, after all you won't never believe he is alive unless he returns.
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If you claim legal documents fake, there needs to be evidence of that claim.
Michael's middle name is JOE, not Joseph. By LAW, this legal middle name, which is stated on his passport and child molestation indictment, MUST be stated exactly on the death certificate. It's not there, it says Joseph. The bull shit some have tried to throw in about it's not a problem to make a middle name shorter or longer, is crap. Let's say my middle name is Miss, my DC will not state Mississippi. Plus they claim to have identified the body by his driver's licence, which states JOE (if it even exists because to my knowledge Michael doesn't even HAVE a DL...thank the Lord), so how fuck that up and write down Joseph? A coroner's office assuming? I don't think so. Plus we have La Toya claiming she signed the damn thing! Your scientific reasoning on this?
Amazing driving ability , only bumps idiots who park in his way and occasionally crashes over curbs or into trees.
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You know Larry, when I think of scientific reasoning I'm thinking of the four rules of scientific reasoning of Sir Isaac Newton, which is indeed a scientific approach. I think a scientific approach is challengeable because it is almost impossible to find or collect evidence based on scientific reasoning as long as we all find data from sources like the news and internet, which are not proven facts and cannot be considered and judged as 'real' evidence. Our investigation is based on theories, built up research and belief which might be close to the truth. There will be a moment that theories become facts.
"Science can never prove that a theory is "true". But it can show that a theory is false." I'm curious about YOUR scientific reasoning on our hypotheses since you are a Philosophical Scientist :icon_e_geek:
@EverywhereASign: yes splendid driving ability.. who needs a DL :errrr:? :icon_lol:
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Why would Michael have to be identified by his driver’s license if his family and all his staff was at the hospital and he was picked up at his residence? He wasn’t dead by fire or dead so long that the body had decomposed beyond recognition, etc. So why would they have to identify him by a driver’s license? That makes absolutely no sense to me. If I am correct a family member or in the case of decomposition and other extremes, dental records are used. At the very least it would seem more reasonable to check fingerprints. The other oddity in Michael’s “alleged” case is that he wasn’t wearing street clothes nor did he have on a coat with pockets, so where did they find the license? Was he clutching it in his hand? The whole scenario reeks of hoax to me.
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Well im more of a Karl Popper myself, although the best way to find the truth IS to disprove as you could find evidence for just about anything. On Souza's comment, his name has always been Michael Joeseph Jackson, my evidence for this is his sons birth certificate http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9500000/Prince-s-birth-certificate-prince-michael-jackson-9523264-574-623.jpg
And it is common for coroners to use multiple sources to identify a deceased person, so a drivers license isn't really that strange at all
So unless you have evidence to the contrary, the death certificate IS legally viable
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(http://[IMG]http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae328/MJFan88/Michael%20Jackson/michael-jackson-ghosts.jpg)(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae328/MJFan88/Michael%20Jackson/michael-jackson-ghosts.jpg)
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Why would Michael have to be identified by his driver’s license if his family and all his staff was at the hospital and he was picked up at his residence? He wasn’t dead by fire or dead so long that the body had decomposed beyond recognition, etc. So why would they have to identify him by a driver’s license? That makes absolutely no sense to me. If I am correct a family member or in the case of decomposition and other extremes, dental records are used. At the very least it would seem more reasonable to check fingerprints. The other oddity in Michael’s “alleged” case is that he wasn’t wearing street clothes nor did he have on a coat with pockets, so where did they find the license? Was he clutching it in his hand? The whole scenario reeks of hoax to me.
Ladies and Gentlemen, skinny and stout,
I'll tell you a tale I know nothing about;
The Admission is free, so pay at the door,
Now pull up a chair and sit on the floor.
One fine day in the middle of the night,
Two dead boys got up to fight;
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew their swords and shot each other.
A blind man came to watch fair play,
A mute man came to shout "Horray!"
A deaf policeman heard the noise and
Came to stop those two dead boys.
He lived on the corner in the middle of the block,
In a two-story house on a vacant lot;
A man with no legs came walking by,
and kicked the lawman in his thigh.
He crashed through a wall without making a sound,
into a dry creek bed and suddenly drowned;
The long black hearse came to cart him away,
But he ran for his life and is still gone today.
I watched from the corner of the big round table,
The only eyewitness to facts of my fable;
But if you doubt my lies are true,
Just ask the blind man, he saw it too.
(Homedog) http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090327162855AArZFGu
Larry, I don't think you're going to find the kind of evidence you're looking for--it defeats the purpose of hoaxing one's death. It's supposed to be convincing, yet inviting suspicion by a trail of subtle clues or "whispers" as Front calls them. This is not pure Science, this is pure mind-warp by a genius. Have fun!
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Well im more of a Karl Popper myself, although the best way to find the truth IS to disprove as you could find evidence for just about anything. On Souza's comment, his name has always been Michael Joeseph Jackson, my evidence for this is his sons birth certificate http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9500000/Prince-s-birth-certificate-prince-michael-jackson-9523264-574-623.jpg
And it is common for coroners to use multiple sources to identify a deceased person, so a drivers license isn't really that strange at all
So unless you have evidence to the contrary, the death certificate IS legally viable
Your scientific reasoning sucks. Your only evidence are birth certificates pulled by TMZ while all birth certificates of the Jacksons were already sealed? And they can't even get Debbie's middle name right on both. You choose to ignore legal documents and signatures of Michael himself to try and prove me wrong. Sorry, but my evidence is much more reliable than yours, you will have to do better than that.
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Souza, if im not mistaken that would mean no pictures of legal documents found online would be of any validity in that case. That said, to the people saying i wont find evidence... i disagree, ANYTHING leaves some kind of trail and a conspiracy such as this would require a lot of perfection to get right... odds are, people would have made mistakes.
Now im not saying we should have a forensic investigation (because not only has that been done, but it would also be unrealistic) but the evidence of a conspiracy SHOULD be there... and it is... the dissapearence of security footage is one of the most damning pieces of evidence to suggest pre meditation OR at least a cover up. That's the evidence im looking into at the moment, because that is something real and isnt some false interpretation of something that isnt really there.
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About the Joe-Joseph thing, I never participated in a previous discussion about this on this board (I'm only a member for a couple of months), but I had always thought his middle name was Joseph. A few months ago, I wasn't even aware that Joe was also used. Katherine wrote in her book (in the 80ies?) that she named him Michael Joseph. So actually I do think that his real legal name (at least at birth) is Joseph. He might have changed it later though.
Nevertheless, I think there's something strange going on with this name thing. Jermaine stated in his book that Michael's middle name has always been Joe, so he counterdicts his mother there. And if Michael Joe was on Michael's driver's license, why would the coroner's office change this to Joseph?
Larry, you want scientific evidence of the hoax? How about the extra star on the Californian seal at the trial? With no legal seal, no legal trial. And why would the trial not be legal if Michael was really dead? To me that is much much more than a 'whisper' or a 'clue'.
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About the Joe-Joseph thing, I never participated in a previous discussion about this on this board (I'm only a member for a couple of months), but I had always thought his middle name was Joseph. A few months ago, I wasn't even aware that Joe was also used. Katherine wrote in her book (in the 80ies?) that she named him Michael Joseph. So actually I do think that his real legal name (at least at birth) is Joseph. He might have changed it later though.
Nevertheless, I think there's something strange going on with this name thing. Jermaine stated in his book that Michael's middle name has always been Joe, so he counterdicts his mother there. And if Michael Joe was on Michael's driver's license, why would the coroner's office change this to Joseph?
Larry, you want scientific evidence of the hoax? How about the extra star on the Californian seal at the trial? With no legal seal, no legal trial. And why would the trial not be legal if Michael was really dead? To me that is much much more than a 'whisper' or a 'clue'.
Show me, dont just state it, provide evidence.
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About the Joe-Joseph thing, I never participated in a previous discussion about this on this board (I'm only a member for a couple of months), but I had always thought his middle name was Joseph. A few months ago, I wasn't even aware that Joe was also used. Katherine wrote in her book (in the 80ies?) that she named him Michael Joseph. So actually I do think that his real legal name (at least at birth) is Joseph. He might have changed it later though.
Nevertheless, I think there's something strange going on with this name thing. Jermaine stated in his book that Michael's middle name has always been Joe, so he counterdicts his mother there. And if Michael Joe was on Michael's driver's license, why would the coroner's office change this to Joseph?
Larry, you want scientific evidence of the hoax? How about the extra star on the Californian seal at the trial? With no legal seal, no legal trial. And why would the trial not be legal if Michael was really dead? To me that is much much more than a 'whisper' or a 'clue'.
Show me, dont just state it, provide evidence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdZrvXvmXTA
If you go to the End the camera goes to the seal above the judge, If you pause it and count the stars you will find the extra star.
Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDRY3YRKDmo
Behind the scenes footage, the cameraman shows the same seal above on the wall behind where the judge would sit.
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About the Joe-Joseph thing, I never participated in a previous discussion about this on this board (I'm only a member for a couple of months), but I had always thought his middle name was Joseph. A few months ago, I wasn't even aware that Joe was also used. Katherine wrote in her book (in the 80ies?) that she named him Michael Joseph. So actually I do think that his real legal name (at least at birth) is Joseph. He might have changed it later though.
Nevertheless, I think there's something strange going on with this name thing. Jermaine stated in his book that Michael's middle name has always been Joe, so he counterdicts his mother there. And if Michael Joe was on Michael's driver's license, why would the coroner's office change this to Joseph?
Larry, you want scientific evidence of the hoax? How about the extra star on the Californian seal at the trial? With no legal seal, no legal trial. And why would the trial not be legal if Michael was really dead? To me that is much much more than a 'whisper' or a 'clue'.
Show me, dont just state it, provide evidence.
if you look at the vedios of the trial footage you can count for yourself, I watched the trial this is correct.
Blessings.
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This is not scientific evidence, it is a real thing; number 1 who took this video, if we set ourselves was taken from the top and inside the house number 2 i think that these bodyguards are very happyyyyyy with the death of his boss, " what man so evil "
http://s867.beta.photobucket.com/user/Christabelle777/media/IsFearTheAppropriateResponse.mp4.html
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Larry ain't gonna see it anyway. Trying is waisting your time. It's not a newbie, he was here 3 years ago and still thinks Michael is dead. Either he is whining just because he has too much time on his hands, or he is too lazy to start investigating and reading himself. In both cases, we should not spoon feed him any further.
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Oh and BTW Larry, I know he is alive, I know he is not 5'9" like the AR states and I know his middle name is Joe, not Joseph. Sometimes you just know, you know?
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"And it is common for coroners to use multiple sources to identify a deceased person, so a drivers license isn't really that strange at all"
Not buying that at all. I have had 2 instances in my own family where identification was needed to identify a deceased family member and they never asked for nor relied on a driver’s license to do it. A reliable source, a close family member preferably, had to come into the morgue and visibly identify the deceased as hard as that was. And they never asked for their picture identification, only mine. :icon_rolleyes:
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The extra star on the CA state seal is just a mistake made in production of the seal, believe it or not. That's how the real state seal appears in all CA court rooms. Refer to live feed from the Lohan trial for example. It is not a hoax clue, nor is it proof of the trial's alleged illegitimacy.
Larry has a point though. Until we stop ignoring the facts (example: above, long ago debunked info many refuse to acknowledge), we are merely fucking around here. This is not a singular example either. Frequently where I look on the forum, people are clinging to old, debunked info as if it were factual. Drags the whole thing down to irrelevancy. It's annoying.
The verdict did however refer to MJ as the "alleged" victim on the "alleged" date, as reviewed by the judge and read aloud by the court clerk, and to date I have not seen that reconciled.
However, Larry, MJ was formally and solely referred to as "Michael JOE Jackson" in all court documents and proceedings during the 2005 chi-mo trial. These documents are public record and retrievable via simple google search, posted on secure govt sites--no funny business. Michael JOE Jackson is also the name contained in the FBI files released in 2009, also available online through the official FBI site. So I think that's as legit as it gets when it comes to proof of MJ's legal name, or as legit as we PC jockeys can uncover in lieu of the holy grail of the BC (sealed!). Michael JOSEPH Jackson may well be a stage name, as it is the name used for several copyright related court proceedings prior to 2009, and all legal documents submitted in accordance with the "death".
We've also proven the "death" pic (ambulance photo) is fake, ie created. And not photoshop either, which would be uninteresting, and certainly not damning, but rather layered, which IS interesting, and IS, as you'll see, quite damning. IOW, it was created from 3 layers. First layer is a pic of MJ being worked on by paramedics within an ambulance interior. Second layer is the pattern or "proof" layer. Third layer is the sun glare and parked car reflection. Interesting proof to be sure, it suggests funny business going on. Funny business just to sell a pic to the tabloids? Sure. But it's more complicated then that considering how it must have been created, using a real pic of MJ really in an ambulance interior that matches actual ambulance 71 working in LA that day... how did NPG stage this pic WITHOUT the direct participation of MJ? That's the damning question, and that the damning evidence of hoax.
If this is all greek to you Larry, feel free to do a topic search here on the forum. This stuff is all so familiar to us that when conducting convo on the forum, we can refer to things without links, as everyone is expected to be up to speed on the info.
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:omg: Bec, I wasn't aware of the Californian seal always being wrong in court rooms. Unbelievable they don't make a right one... I didn't know this info had already been debunked, sorry for being annoying :icon_mrgreen:. But indeed the 'alleged' in the verdict is abnormal anyway. I didn't mention it because to me the extra star in the seal seemed so important. I feel a bit :icon_pale: knowing it didn't mean anything.
About the Joe thing, I know this is the only middle name used in court docs of 2005, FBI files, ... But how do you explain the Joseph in Katherine's book then? The stage name? She really says she named him Michael Joseph. If I have time, I will quote from her book later this evening (in my timezone it's evening).
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KJ, much like MJ, is not a reliable source. She is not under oath so her statements may or may not be factual. She has been proven to be unreliable in her statements in the past, therefore, all of her statements come under scrutiny.
Government sites are much more reliable when it comes to gleaning factual information.
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KJ, much like MJ, is not a reliable source. She is not under oath so her statements may or may not be factual. She has been proven to be unreliable in her statements in the past, therefore, all of her statements come under scrutiny.
Government sites are much more reliable when it comes to gleaning factual information.
I just happen to notice the other day that Paris asked on twitter if anyone knew her time of birth...probably for astrology reading, but anyway someone googled it and sent her the information ... Joseph is used on the kid's birth certificates.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/birth.jpg)
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KJ, much like MJ, is not a reliable source. She is not under oath so her statements may or may not be factual. She has been proven to be unreliable in her statements in the past, therefore, all of her statements come under scrutiny.
Government sites are much more reliable when it comes to gleaning factual information.
I just happen to notice the other day that Paris asked on twitter if anyone knew her time of birth...probably for astrology reading, but anyway someone googled it and sent her the information ... Joseph is used on the kid's birth certificates.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/birth.jpg)
When appeared for the first time in view at the people that certificate, before or after the 25 of June?
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And how do we know that BC is real and unaltered? It's not posted to a secure govt site so it's pretty irrelevant.
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After.
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After.
Exactly, the reason I refrained from posting it earlier. I have lots of documents with Joseph on them. But they were all released publicly after June 25th
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Larry if you think Michael is dead what are you doing here?? I won't even bother to explain why I believe Michael is alive, for what?? I don't wanna lose my time, after all you won't never believe he is alive unless he returns.
Simple , greatest words !!!! There is no more to say!! :th_bravo:
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Larry ain't gonna see it anyway. Trying is waisting your time. It's not a newbie, he was here 3 years ago and still thinks Michael is dead. Either he is whining just because he has too much time on his hands, or he is too lazy to start investigating and reading himself. In both cases, we should not spoon feed him any further.
Agreed. Some re-visiting is still interesting for us though.
Bec, the only thing about the extra star, is why was it painted into the ‘Michael’ album cover, with matching colors and everything, if not a clue? TS did explain that there was nothing hoaxy about the extra star, just as he supposedly debunked some other fav hoaxer tidbits.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/cat_girl25/courtseal_michaelcd.png)
Shrimp, looking forward to hearing your KJ quote from the 80's! My personal hunch is that MJ's birth name is Joseph, and since the planning of this hoax in the 80's, the confusion has been deliberately inserted in ALL documents. I've said this before, that I swore I saw a pic of young MJ holding a report card with middle name Joseph, but it's been removed. There's only a high-school one with no middle name.
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/406905_472830932754864_1493336588_n.jpg)
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You are right Wishing. I have been trying to find it too.
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The smoke screen was Joseph. Driver's licences, passports, indictments and FBI files are legal documents. If they say Joe, then his real name is Joe. So everywhere we see Joseph on a document, it is the image and maybe it is even a legal business name or something to be able to use it on certain documents relating to the brand and business MJ. But you don't die as an image or business, you die as a person. Katherine calls him Joseph, Michael says Joseph, Jermaine, La Toya, the court, the FBI etc call him Joe. Confusion all over, exactly according plan. Michael Joseph Jackson is the image "MJ", the King of Pop. I doubt Katherine would swear on the Bible that her son Michael, born in 1958, has Joseph as a middle name.
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Unfortunately I cannot find the quote of Katherine Jackson, although I was pretty sure it was in her book. I just find no mention of his middle name at all in there.
I found one of Joseph Jackson though, from his book "The Jacksons":
"Then Michael Joseph has come to world. The name "Michael" was chosen by Katherine, and we named him Joseph in my honour."
Also La Toya in one of her books, "Growing up in the Jackson Family" mentions his birth name is Michael Joseph:
"The four kids to come received more typical names: Marlon David, Michael Joseph (whom we usually called Mike), ..."
I know especially La Toya is not to be trusted as it comes to what she has written in her books, but I cannot see why she would lie about Michael's middle name at the time (early nineties).
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Let me make myself clear: I don't want to start a heated discussion as to his real middle name.
But you know, I have only been here for a couple of months and I have only been reading things about the hoax since then. At the time of his 'death', I was very busy with my job, baby, pregnancy, new house etc. So the whole Joe-Joseph thing is rather new to me.
When I first came across the issue, it was a post in which someone asked which name was the real one, and I immediately thought 'Joseph of course', because that was the only middle name I had seen of him in all these years of being a fan. I was genuinely surprised that the answers to the question all directed to 'Joe'.
I read some books about him, read things on line, once even did a little paper on him for school and therefore went to the library to take copies of a pop encyclopedia. In my memory, it always was Michael Joseph Jackson.
It might sound stupid, but I'm actually pretty sure of this because I really like his name (although I reckon Michael Joseph is a very common name in America) and it would have stood out to me if I would have seen 'Michael Joe' somewhere.
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Also La Toya in one of her books, "Growing up in the Jackson Family" mentions his birth name is Michael Joseph:
"The four kids to come received more typical names: Marlon David, Michael Joseph (whom we usually called Mike), ..."
Michael Joe / Mike Joseph. Michael Joseph / Mike Joe. Lol.
Thinking Michael Joseph is nicer, doesn't change his middle name, neither does the public believing it is.
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I understand the frustration Shrimp. But the entire time we have known of Michael Jackson, it has been as a star. If his name had been changed for business purposes early in his career, then all we would have ever seen is Joseph. I don’t know if that’s a valid explanation, but it seems kind of logical to me. To preserve some of his privacy since he was a small child when he started, I can truly understand giving him a slightly augmented stage name. Not so much that he would feel he was being made to appear as someone else, but using his father’s name (could be Joseph’s own ego tripping, :LolLolLolLol:) which would have been more comforting in a sense.
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BTW Shrimp, is it possible to quote that complete part about all the names? Or a link to it online or something?
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Yes of course, I forgot the links. Here from La Toya's book: http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi-04/toya/toya09.html
Joseph Jackson's: http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi-02/04joej/04joej08.html
As you can see, from jetzi. What a treasure of information is to be found there!
@Souza, it's not that I prefer the name Joseph over Joe, it's just that I only knew Joseph and that I liked it, and I have a thing for names so I reckon if I would have read another name (being Joe), I would have noticed. I don't have a year thing, so maybe (although I doubt it) I wouldn't have noticed if somewhere his birth year was stated differently.
I can tell you 100% sure that the name Michael Joseph Jackson was to be found in numerous places before June 2009. I'm not sure the name Michael Joe was though (but I'm sure you guys are).
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Sorry off topic: OMG what a good student Michael was!! Hats off (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hello/hats-off-salute-smiley-emoticon.gif)
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Michael Joseph is (as far as I see) mostly mentioned from the late 80's up until now. My mother, who is Michael's age, was surprised to see Michael Joseph, she was convinced it was Joe.
But whatever people think or remember to be true, it is a fact that Michael's middle name is Joe. Unless the chi-mo trial was fake, the FBI investigation was fake, the passports are fake etc.
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Show me, dont just state it, provide evidence.
It's up to you to prove it / provide evidence for yourself. Not for others to provide it for you. Your original post was simply a sheer cry for attention or to start contention here, because if you look and mind you, you don't even have to look too hard there is plenty of evidence.
No one here should have to investigate for you and pull out proof to make you see. Use your own initiative. Clearly you haven't, because your opening post says in 3 years its all the same old same old. What have YOU personally done in the past 3 years to find truth?
Instead of people putting answers for you on a silver platter why don't you google, read, research and find your own proof. If you are not inclined at least then try and find proof that he is dead. That'll keep you busy for a while because there is no evidence. The entire death story is all based on hearsay, conflicting verbal statements, staged events and fake documents and photos (which have been debunked)
Might as well add that if you believe the death story, that doesn't equate to 'Philosophical Science' my friend, it equates to 'Gulibility' sadly. Which clearly for some, no amount of education can protect you from, LOL
Waste of time debating with people who are not humble to learn from others or question what they think they know.
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I don’t even know that I ever even thought about his middle name until the hoax. He was Michael Jackson and that was all that mattered to me.
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The extra star on the CA state seal is just a mistake made in production of the seal, believe it or not. That's how the real state seal appears in all CA court rooms. Refer to live feed from the Lohan trial for example. It is not a hoax clue, nor is it proof of the trial's alleged illegitimacy.
Larry has a point though. Until we stop ignoring the facts (example: above, long ago debunked info many refuse to acknowledge), we are merely fucking around here. This is not a singular example either. Frequently where I look on the forum, people are clinging to old, debunked info as if it were factual. Drags the whole thing down to irrelevancy. It's annoying.
The verdict did however refer to MJ as the "alleged" victim on the "alleged" date, as reviewed by the judge and read aloud by the court clerk, and to date I have not seen that reconciled.
However, Larry, MJ was formally and solely referred to as "Michael JOE Jackson" in all court documents and proceedings during the 2005 chi-mo trial. These documents are public record and retrievable via simple google search, posted on secure govt sites--no funny business. Michael JOE Jackson is also the name contained in the FBI files released in 2009, also available online through the official FBI site. So I think that's as legit as it gets when it comes to proof of MJ's legal name, or as legit as we PC jockeys can uncover in lieu of the holy grail of the BC (sealed!). Michael JOSEPH Jackson may well be a stage name, as it is the name used for several copyright related court proceedings prior to 2009, and all legal documents submitted in accordance with the "death".
We've also proven the "death" pic (ambulance photo) is fake, ie created. And not photoshop either, which would be uninteresting, and certainly not damning, but rather layered, which IS interesting, and IS, as you'll see, quite damning. IOW, it was created from 3 layers. First layer is a pic of MJ being worked on by paramedics within an ambulance interior. Second layer is the pattern or "proof" layer. Third layer is the sun glare and parked car reflection. Interesting proof to be sure, it suggests funny business going on. Funny business just to sell a pic to the tabloids? Sure. But it's more complicated then that considering how it must have been created, using a real pic of MJ really in an ambulance interior that matches actual ambulance 71 working in LA that day... how did NPG stage this pic WITHOUT the direct participation of MJ? That's the damning question, and that the damning evidence of hoax.
If this is all greek to you Larry, feel free to do a topic search here on the forum. This stuff is all so familiar to us that when conducting convo on the forum, we can refer to things without links, as everyone is expected to be up to speed on the info.
First, Souza ^^^^^^ This person is doing what we ALL should do. 3 years ago i was immature and stupid, i have finished school and am now in tertiary education. The truth MATTERS and so long as the possibility of being wrong is still here, i will continue to discuss. Souza just "knowing" is not even close to valid. I mean i could just "know" that Michael Jackson is dead, but that doesn't make it correct... this line of thinking is what kept humanity from the truth for so long, lets not go backwards here... unless we are :moonwalk_:
Second, MJbeLIEver, i dont need to provide evidence of ANYTHING, i have the default position. Dont act like you know my intentions, because you dont, dont get so touchy about people having a different view.
Bec, thankyou for your post, it is very informative and intelligent, i wish more people were willing to DISCUSS like you are. That said i have looked into the photo and i agree it very well could have been faked, but the questions that remain are 1. WAS it actually faked and 2. What was the motive for faking it. We cant just apply any motive we want, we have to find the real one... or at least get a good indication.
Finally, Joe or Joeseph doesnt actually matter, if your name is Joeseph (like Michaels) you can legally use Joe. So i do beLIEve that this fact is irrelevent to the hoax
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larry141094:
Bec, thankyou for your post, it is very informative and intelligent, i wish more people were willing to DISCUSS like you are. That said i have looked into the photo and i agree it very well could have been faked, but the questions that remain are 1. WAS it actually faked and 2. What was the motive for faking it. We cant just apply any motive we want, we have to find the real one... or at least get a good indication.
Yes it was a faked pic unless Michael had died in his twenties and that's what stood up for me when I first saw that pic over the photoshop work on it or not that is secondary, IMO.
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The extra star on the CA state seal is just a mistake made in production of the seal, believe it or not. That's how the real state seal appears in all CA court rooms. Refer to live feed from the Lohan trial for example. It is not a hoax clue, nor is it proof of the trial's alleged illegitimacy.
Larry has a point though. Until we stop ignoring the facts (example: above, long ago debunked info many refuse to acknowledge), we are merely fucking around here. This is not a singular example either. Frequently where I look on the forum, people are clinging to old, debunked info as if it were factual. Drags the whole thing down to irrelevancy. It's annoying.
The verdict did however refer to MJ as the "alleged" victim on the "alleged" date, as reviewed by the judge and read aloud by the court clerk, and to date I have not seen that reconciled.
However, Larry, MJ was formally and solely referred to as "Michael JOE Jackson" in all court documents and proceedings during the 2005 chi-mo trial. These documents are public record and retrievable via simple google search, posted on secure govt sites--no funny business. Michael JOE Jackson is also the name contained in the FBI files released in 2009, also available online through the official FBI site. So I think that's as legit as it gets when it comes to proof of MJ's legal name, or as legit as we PC jockeys can uncover in lieu of the holy grail of the BC (sealed!). Michael JOSEPH Jackson may well be a stage name, as it is the name used for several copyright related court proceedings prior to 2009, and all legal documents submitted in accordance with the "death".
We've also proven the "death" pic (ambulance photo) is fake, ie created. And not photoshop either, which would be uninteresting, and certainly not damning, but rather layered, which IS interesting, and IS, as you'll see, quite damning. IOW, it was created from 3 layers. First layer is a pic of MJ being worked on by paramedics within an ambulance interior. Second layer is the pattern or "proof" layer. Third layer is the sun glare and parked car reflection. Interesting proof to be sure, it suggests funny business going on. Funny business just to sell a pic to the tabloids? Sure. But it's more complicated then that considering how it must have been created, using a real pic of MJ really in an ambulance interior that matches actual ambulance 71 working in LA that day... how did NPG stage this pic WITHOUT the direct participation of MJ? That's the damning question, and that the damning evidence of hoax.
If this is all greek to you Larry, feel free to do a topic search here on the forum. This stuff is all so familiar to us that when conducting convo on the forum, we can refer to things without links, as everyone is expected to be up to speed on the info.
First, Souza ^^^^^^ This person is doing what we ALL should do. 3 years ago i was immature and stupid, i have finished school and am now in tertiary education. The truth MATTERS and so long as the possibility of being wrong is still here, i will continue to discuss. Souza just "knowing" is not even close to valid. I mean i could just "know" that Michael Jackson is dead, but that doesn't make it correct... this line of thinking is what kept humanity from the truth for so long, lets not go backwards here... unless we are :moonwalk_:
Second, MJbeLIEver, i dont need to provide evidence of ANYTHING, i have the default position. Dont act like you know my intentions, because you dont, dont get so touchy about people having a different view.
Bec, thankyou for your post, it is very informative and intelligent, i wish more people were willing to DISCUSS like you are. That said i have looked into the photo and i agree it very well could have been faked, but the questions that remain are 1. WAS it actually faked and 2. What was the motive for faking it. We cant just apply any motive we want, we have to find the real one... or at least get a good indication.
Finally, Joe or Joeseph doesnt actually matter, if your name is Joeseph (like Michaels) you can legally use Joe. So i do beLIEve that this fact is irrelevent to the hoax
You, Larry, are a lost cause. You completely ignore the evidence I stated, yet agree with bec who says the same. Me thinks you like to irritate, because your posts sure as hell aren't well thought out and you clearly haven't investigated a damn thing.
And in my case, Larry, knowing is more than enough. And Joe or Joseph? It DOES matter. Just do your research and call some government agencies, like some of us did. Don't ask if you won't like the answers.
Good luck on your quest for the truth, with your lazy and narrow minded attitude you might find it before you turn 92.
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Someone ask us legal evidence, scientific or academic but we do not receive any legal proof, scientific or academic to prove the contrary to a hoax, too much attention to someone that doesn't prove anything.
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I am most certainly not touchy about people having a different point of view. The people I love the most in my life believe MJ to be dead.
I am touchy about people who contribute nothing but are happy to come in here create a thread demanding proof as well as to insult others. You did after all state there was no common sense here to the people that are actually doing the hard work much unlike yourself. Go back and read your first post.
Default position??? Whatever makes you sleep at night Larry.
As for your intention, perhaps I can not judge that. But you are not a believer 3.5 yrs later. You demand Believers provide you with proof. You insult the team. What other opinion did you expect is to make of your intentions?
I agree Souza. Lost cause.
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Ok i fail to see how i insulted anyone here... but if you're going to be immature then so be it.
Souza, Bec said something completly different to you, i respected what she said because she gave me a GOOD reason to take it on board. This isn't about causes, i am not here to stir trouble. I am here because i could very well be wrong in my beliefs, i just happen to believe discourse is the best way of obtaining truth.
MJ BeLIEver, understand what the default position in a scientific study is, then you will understand what i mean. I dont make the rules up, the scientific method is clear on how to deal with conflicting ideas.
To those saying im contributing nothing, i disagree.
We have established some interesting things, like for example using other Californian court cases to point out that the extra star on the seal means nothing, i have suggested looking further into the missing tape and have so far read that the POLICE destroyed the tape... is that not of any value? We established that the ambulance photo could have been faked, although i have not explored this avenue further, i do believe the explanation would be far more simple than what has been suggested. We know, looking at legal documents that Michaels middle name is JOESEPH, but Joe is a legally valid alternative (doing a quick google search i double checked this, however i need to provide a good example which i am working on.)
TRUTH is important, and fresh perspectives help challenge the status quo and allows a more accurate view to surface... onwards!
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Interesting... Larry doesn't want anyone to get "touchy." Yet he strolls onto our forum after a 3 year hiatus stating that he is not a beLIEver and practically challenges us to prove him wrong.
So let me get this straight - Larry doesn't want to upset anyone?
Sounds legit... :thjajaja121: Yeah, right!
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-_- i stated why im here, im here because I could be wrong... i cant just assume im right because that is unscientific.
My position is irrelevent, any true fan would want the truth regardless of what it is.
If you cant deal with actually LOOKING at evidence and having false evidence displaced, then you shouldn't claim to be a hoax investigator...
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This quote is taken from Larry's April 3rd, 2010 post.....
The point of me being here is not to be a nuisance, but rather to help you guys in your grieving process.
I don't think your position or point has changed much in 3 years Larry.
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Believe me it has changed quite alot... anyway. Enough about me, back to the hoax
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Believe me it has changed quite alot... anyway. Enough about me, back to the hoax
This is not the Larry show. This is not a 'I am a non-believer, proof me wrong' website and little arrogant pricks like you are not very desirable here if they do nothing else than ridiculing and insulting members who put tons more research and time in this than you did while you were finishing high school.
You ignore evidence, you clearly try to irritate me and your attitude is not welcome here. So you either change that and read and investigate/contribute yourself before you even dare insulting any of the members here, or you find another forum to spit your venom.
Also, this is a introduction thread, so if anyone wants to revisit old topics, as I have been suggesting, please post in the appropriate categories so people like Larry here can easily find it when they want to know something because people will not search the Larry show for information.
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Bec, love it when your logic gets fired up, like on that NPG scenario!
They sit outside Kleins for "hours" reportedly but they split from UCLA when for all they knew he was going to walk out and blow kisses to the crowd? One would only think they would leave if they KNEW MJ was "dead" and they KNEW they had a pic.
Shrimp, it's great that you are here more now, although your kids must take a lot of your time! I’m amazed I’ve never read that book that Joe wrote, in the Jetzi link you gave! Fascinating!
http://jetzi-mjvideo.com/books-jetzi-02/04joej/04joej08.html
It only increases the respect I have for him, the sacrificing he did for his kids, and to think he nearly died in that Gas pumps explosion! When I think of all the dead-beat dads out there today, now THOSE kids suffer much more.
Sometimes my kids have made fun of or criticized things I've said or done when they were kids, but they have no idea how I poured every ounce of my strength and love into 24/7 details for them, and of course made mistakes in retrospect.
Larry, may I suggest--first you need to catch up by reading our archives at least in key areas, and then find new info that hasn't been found yet. THEN everyone will be most happy to engage in discussion with you.
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Sometimes my kids have made fun of or criticized things I've said or done when they were kids, but they have no idea how I poured every ounce of my strength and love into 24/7 details for them, and of course made mistakes in retrospect.
So true. I laughed and made fun of my mum (in the spirit of love) but never really understood how much she poured into us til I became a parent. Comes full circle huh? Kids have no idea how much work love and sacrifice goes into raising them. And as a parent you lovingly give unbegrudgingly and wouldn't have it any other way.
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Before i goto actual topics, Souza, dont say im insulting members when i clearly am not. YOUR the one with the attitude here
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This quote is taken from Larry's April 3rd, 2010 post.....
The point of me being here is not to be a nuisance, but rather to help you guys in your grieving process.
I don't think your position or point has changed much in 3 years Larry.
:multiplespotting: :multiplespotting: :multiplespotting: :elvis-1405: :moonwalk_: :thjajaja121:
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*sigh* such childishness from so called "adults", red herrings will get you no where. Grow up
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Chao Larry here nobody needs psychological help, you are here to provoke this it all your goal