Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Persons Of Interest => The Jackson Family & Kids => Other Jackson Family Members => Topic started by: son on August 08, 2012, 11:37:29 AM
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Meaning, what if no one (not even his family) is really aware of Michael Jackson's fate? I would say it would explain the ambiguity behind the Jacksons behavior (perhaps better than MJ directly orquestrating everything). Why the family is fairly lenient with us hoaxers, why Paris can apparently make light of her father's "death". Why so many people say they've never seen the body, and why the family seems to be going in different directions. Maybe they've received instructions on what to do in case Michael "disappeared" (as far as you or anyone else is concerned I'm dead). I still believe there was a "body" but they were instructed not to look at it. Though some of those close to him broke that rule, yet they just went with the flow. Many of MJ's associates might just assume that he had a "few more surgeries" prior to his projected concerts, but those closest to him knew the body wasn't real. Some members are holding out hope that he's alive while others have "accepted the reality" that he's gone. Regardless the family seems to agree with the public image of a "dead MJ". With the mysterious body and the conrad murray case too out of control to say otherwise. Though behind closed doors the matter may be different entirely.
Or is this too convoluted?
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who knows anything is possible.
so in your theory does he need something in particular to be able to come out? :icon_e_wink:
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who knows anything is possible.
so in your theory does he need something in particular to be able to come out? :icon_e_wink:
I don't know, theoretically he'd leave "more" information to his family yet they seem to be drawn to the research done by us believers. Even on seemingly non-hoax related points dealing with the will etc.
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i suppose there is also the possibility that he has been missing longer than we think. :-\
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The record of the past 3 years disproves this fairly solidly. There's a reason there are popular theories that are still standing and also a reason why others are rejected over time.
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yes. popular theories do stand for a long period of time.
:moonwalk_:
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The record of the past 3 years disproves this fairly solidly. There's a reason there are popular theories that are still standing and also a reason why others are rejected over time.
It depends on how much "faith" you have in the purveyor of some of the facts in the records we've received. Not saying a anyone is being intentionally deceptive, but they are more or less just as in the dark as we are.
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That theory too, son, has been floated and rejected due to developments over time.
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That theory too, son, has been floated and rejected due to developments over time.
A lot of things can be accepted or rejected as per the bureaucracy of the hoax community, nothing can be said for sure. In fact, beyond circumstrantial evidence and conjecture, the only "pure" hoax info we have comes from MJ himself.
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You're right. And he's dead. I guess we can all go home.
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You're right. And he's dead. I guess we can all go home.
I never said that. My whole point is that it's a "mystery" to all of us. For me, the themes that come directly from MJ is enough for me to believe.
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i think we can doubt anything in this story.
if i get son's point of view in the right way it would mean that
1/ only clues coming from MJ are "pure" : but MJ cannot speak out loud, he obviously need spokesmen and they MIGHT be his own family.
2/ the family knows nothing and all clues coming from them are purely created by them, going here and there because they have no idea : i will speak my mind on the following words : if they were not in on it, and had ANY idea that there could be a hoax, i think some of the jackson would have taken this opportunity to make money (this is what i think) In the end, they all "more or less" play their part and NOBODY publicly talked about the hoax theory (good or bad) I think if they were not part of it, they would have try to use it for their own purpose and that would have been seen. They all played a part in the hoax, with clues, pictures, interview...
3/outside knowers : i have no idea honestly because at the time he was preparing/finishing the hoax, we cannot "really" say who could be in the know. After the hoax i think many people who knew him came back with their "insider" flag :smiley-vault-misc-150: telling to anyone what they knew about MJ.
4/ Lets put as much fakers as you can image on the net, in the media, all those people seeking for money/fame/attention or just bored by their own life.
I agree you can doubt, but i think on a "general line" the family has been almost normal since everything strange that happened, happened to be stage or containing hoaxies in a very obvious way.
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Michael is capable of everything. All his life is controversial, he is the same in death. I see him capable of crazy things which even some of his fans would reject if they would know (talking about unconditional love...)
In this hoax ANYTHING is possible.
Because we talk about Michael Jackson, the black-white king, the child-man artist, the angel-devil character.
I truly believe he cares not for any kind of limitations, no matter we talk about his creation, his life or his death.
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Michael is the only one, for ability, humanity, and intelligence....and we that are here understand all this very well.. :michael-jackson: I agree with you Gina :bearhug:....Michael is unpredictable.... so...waiting with all your L.O.V.E. we are not alone .... :icon_e_wink:
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@ son
I don't get your point, but Michael is the one who planned this hoax long time ago. He has set the rules, and we are all playing according to these rules, his family too. It's an adventure. If Michael was really dead, the wouldn't have been this forum, Front wouldn't have existed, Paris wouldn't have tweeted the tweets that are related to the hoax, and there wouldn't have been any shout outs from the family or TMZ. This is all happening because of Michael's plans. So sit back and enjoy the hoax.
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Well I must admit that thought has crossed my mind.
We all doubt and question sometimes, right?
It´s a thicket of facts, ideas, events, backgrounds, characters involved, truths and half-truths, questions, mysteries, riddles.....
It´s not easy, and it probably was never meant to be easy to figure it all out.
But:
I´d rather concede ingenuity to Michael NOW and find out in the end that I was right, than doubt it and find out in the end that I was wrong and totally underestimated him. Not for selfish reasons and not bc I don´t like being wrong or bc thinking that way is easier. I don´t have blinders on. I still keep watching and observing critically. It´s simply bc I would never want to do wrong by him and underestimate him.
And from all that I´ve learned, heard and seen so far: there´s a good chance that he really is the genius behind all this and that it´s him who pulls the strings.
I love this thought. There´s so much beauty and brilliancy in this hoax if you decide to look at it that way. I love all the nuances and I would not want to miss that.
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I have had people say to me at times
"you know his dead right?" and I've argued against them asking them to void all what's happened to say otherwise, they can't of course but then they did say "what if in his real will he asked for a hoax to be played out?" I thought about it for a short time but dismissed it, I felt he wasn't dead the moment I saw the announcement and the only time I have doubted it was when I had my grandfather pass away and a friend from a long time ago die within a week of each other.. If i had gone on just the odd strange things happening from day 1 I probably would have believed more in the whole a possible real will stating for a hoax but my heart from the beginning said different which had nothing to do with others. I believe his a live and all these people who has given hoaxy stuff were in line with the hoax, In the end I think it's a trust yourself, trust what your instincts tell you personally.
Although it is good to look at all views, sides and possibilities, but the instincts generally never fail.
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there MAY be knowers...however, I feel that not everyone knows about MJ being alive....not everyone in his family.......maybe a few are aware or like you said, some of them are hoping he's not really gone.....the reactions they had didnt make sense, ie janet laughing 5 months later...........
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Sorry, son, you'll have to excuse me, I resolved all these doubts you speak of 2 years ago.
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I don't know....what Son says does make sense....maybe MJ told his family that he was going to disappear....he told Paris "If I die tomorrow...remember everything that I've told you"...so apparently he was redding some of them for it. I do believe the fake corpse idea...the fake cadavers look extremely realistic these days...and unless you are touching the person, it could easily be believed to be real. Plus add a bit of "magic" via Criss Angel and it could easily have been pulled off. :animal0017:
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So Dr. Cooper is a liar then? A liar who perjured herself? The EMT's as well I suppose. Don't forget Dr. Nyugen (or however you spell her name). Lots of liars. For what purpose if no one knows?
Sorry, these theories are old n tired, half baked and been long ago debunked. Do a search on the forum for more info. There are volumes for your reading pleasure.
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@ son, my sister also a major MJ fan like I except she is a non believer, thinks silimarly to you.
She knows how amazing / crafty / imaginative he is and believes he is dead. She says MJ is the kind of person who would want to really die leaving people wondering if it's all a hoax (that's how she reconciles all the hoaxy proof I throw her way)
She can't digest it and feels embarrassed for me that I have been 'misguided' by nutcase conspiracy theorists. And yet I shake my head in amazement because she says this with such conviction with out ONCE giving one piece of evidence I show her serious and unbiased consideration.
Long story short. Rhetorically I have asked her, if you can't accept everything I am showing you that proves he is alive and simply just don't / can't believe it. That's fine. Leave it be. But set yourself a task and try to build a case and find evidence that he is dead then. And I'm not talking verbal accounts. I'm talking conclusive evidence he is dead.
There isn't any. Still to this day.
I am guessing this task will keep her busy for a while. (but knowing her she will probably form an opinion without seeking proof)
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Sorry hit 'post' prematurely.
My point is that after three years the theory that MJ is dead, is FAR LESS plausible than MJ being alive. The scales of evidence are tipped the other way. There is nothing to indicate he is dead.
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And this is why you need to read.
Aussie did it. She started late. She is living proof you can get up to speed even having missed a few years.
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Lol, and I'm still at it. Archived forums are the best. Besides our current priveledge of front and TS threads, I personally believe the best threads and discussions for quantifying theories or debunking theories, were had from sep 09 to early 2011.
Really worth fishing around those old theory boards if you have doubts or unresolved theories. A lot of the doubts have been addressed and debunked.
Good luck son!
NB. Just for a laugh now, here is one of my sisters other theories. Actually theory is too strong of a word, more of an ill thought out statement based on no research whatsoever.
My sis reconciles what family days about "conspiracy" and "hoax evidence" I throw at her, by saying "he is dead, and the people who killed him (doctor Murray and others she is vague about) are making out MJ hoaxed his death so that they are not held accountable, that it's a hoax within a hoax. MJ didn't die, he was murdered and they are covering it up with the hoax. Which is why you ..... (my real name) keep seeing hoax proof, because the hoax is a hoax itself. Which explains why family spoke of conspiracy, it's conspiracy about who killed him, not faking death" she goes on to plead, "look at Janet, Latoya, Katherine his kids! They all grieved publicly and spoke publically about his death, he wouldn't do that to them"
I just shake my head and walk away saying "when you hear the news, just remember, I told ya so!" see people forget hoax rule 101, 'just because you read it in a magazine or see it on a tv screen don't make it factual!'
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@son, are you saying the Jackson family is working it all out the same as we are? That they don't know if he's dead or alive? That he somehow orchestrated his disappearance plus a body without anyone else's involvement? That the family is questioning the validity of the will because hoaxers did?
I know it's ill-advised to say 'MJ would never do such and such' but I think I'm on fairly solid ground to say MJ would not do that to his mother, at very least, even if it were a remotely desirable or possible-to-pull-off scenario, which IMO it itsn't!
Slightly off at a tangent, I have in mind TS saying the family's actions and reactions (those may not be the exact words he used) is one of the biggest indications of the hoax, and I've often wondered if any difference is noticeable to those who have always followed them. I'm one who has never been interested in 'celebrity' news, even MJ news, had never heard of TMZ till 2010, so I really don't have anything to compare 'now' with!
So, just out of interest did anyone here follow the Jackson family pre-2009? How did they behave then? Were they forever hitting the tabloids? Are they 'different' nowadays?
@son, my advice, as others have said, is to get reading! Popular theories around here are here because indiciduals have given them much attention and satisfied themselves as to their validity - there are no thought police (you used the word bureaucracy) dictating what hoaxers should or should not believe, as evidenced by the lack of agreement on almost all aspects of the hoax!
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Before, I mentioned my sister believes MJ always had plans to have people wondering if it's really a hoax when he really does die and that there is no hoax, it's all just planted by MJ to appear that way.
After I posted I recalled bec's blog entry about proof which I read a while ago, which addresses a similar notion. Hope you don't mind bec, but just going to post the link, as it's a great read and I think it flows well along the lines of conversation happening on this thread at the mo.
And no, she isn't paying me lol, I just really liked this blog entry :)
http://exploringthehoax.wordpress.com/2012/05/08/what-is-proof/
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Before, I mentioned my sister believes MJ always had plans to have people wondering if it's really a hoax when he really does die and that there is no hoax, it's all just planted by MJ to appear that way.
Lol Aussie, that´s great. I´ve also been there, thinking that might be what happend.
But as bec said: the more you read, the more you will find that this theory is also illogical.
I also started late and I am still reading and learning everyday.
I can only endorse what has been said: read, read and read and then read more and read again :icon_lol:
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What I don't understand is why plan an elaborate hoax when only a small portions of beLIEvers would follow it? All the people who think MJ is dead probably haven't even thought about him faking his death at all.
Can someone answer this w/o getting mad, frustrated or defensive?....It's just a question! Do know that I do not think he is dead.....I'm just wanting feedback.
Also, Bec....are you saying that you think the Dr's were telling the truth?
Yeah...this is probably all OLD news and you've probably gone over it 1,000 times, but please humor me or direct me to a place where I can find the answers. :icon_e_smile:
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What I don't understand is why plan an elaborate hoax when only a small portions of beLIEvers would follow it? All the people who think MJ is dead probably haven't even thought about him faking his death at all.
Can someone answer this w/o getting mad, frustrated or defensive?....It's just a question! Do know that I do not think he is dead.....I'm just wanting feedback.
Also, Bec....are you saying that you think the Dr's were telling the truth?
Yeah...this is probably all OLD news and you've probably gone over it 1,000 times, but please humor me or direct me to a place where I can find the answers. :icon_e_smile:
I recommend this thread:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18688.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18688.0)
The gist is:
If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment. However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment. If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.
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What I don't understand is why plan an elaborate hoax when only a small portions of beLIEvers would follow it? All the people who think MJ is dead probably haven't even thought about him faking his death at all.
Because its not just about now, it's about the aftermath of bam and what it will accomplish for MJ down the track. He is going to turn media, music industry and world upside down. This side of bam a few followers, post bam maybe a billion strong army.
Also yes the entrapment issue. MJ is free to say there were many who knew I was alive and there were many instances lyrics, TII, family, twitter, online personas where I indicate I was alive. It was the media who drew conclusions and presumed I was dead.
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@curls in answer to your question, The Jackson family had not crossed my mind in years. They were virtually invisible before 2009. What is going on now is waaaaaay out of the norm. So yes, I tend to believe that they are purposely grabbing the attention of the media, possibly to divert them from Michael's gradual re-entry, or even possibly so that when he does return they will be focused on other family issues that it will throw them completely our of synch and they won't know what hit them.
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When family and friends, fans or not of Michael, listen to my "MJ is alive" they usually answer among other things -"if he is alive, as you say, and faked his death, that would mean that he wants to be left alone, so show your love respecting his will and accept that he has died"
At times I think that they are right and from time to time I just move on assuming that he is not coming back, but honestly, I just still feel that something is not right with all of this. He may not come back but the man is not dead.
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I also wonder if he would come back or not but we must agree : everything is said and done to put some doubt in our brains. i think he still wants to "exist" and everything is done to keep us in this way. If he really wanted to be "dead with no return" why such a mess ? the memorial and funeral were enough and the total lack of anything else would have keep us away from searching him.
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What I don't understand is why plan an elaborate hoax when only a small portions of beLIEvers would follow it? All the people who think MJ is dead probably haven't even thought about him faking his death at all.
Can someone answer this w/o getting mad, frustrated or defensive?
Uff.... :icon_bounce: :smiley-vault-misc-150: :icon_geek: that´s a difficult question...
I thought that´s the intention of a hoax? The smaller the number of suspicious people, the better the hoax, isn´t it?
Michael didn´t hoax his death to face a large crowd one day who say: gotcha! It´s just a hoax anyway, so come out!
He did it to protect himself, to protect his life and healthness.
So, if only a handful of people who REALLY are interested in start to be suspicious, hoax is a success.
But back to the main question!
What if there are no knowers - hmmm... a hoax NEEDS to have knowers, at least one, the person who starts a hoax needs at least one other person to help him.
If there´s a hoax, there are knowers, but the question is whether they come out into daylight ( at least a bit ) or keep it in the closet.
BTW: what - if - questions are always difficult, at least for me, because I have to move in parallel universes with their own logic...
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What I don't understand is why plan an elaborate hoax when only a small portions of beLIEvers would follow it? All the people who think MJ is dead probably haven't even thought about him faking his death at all.
Can someone answer this w/o getting mad, frustrated or defensive?
Uff.... :icon_bounce: :smiley-vault-misc-150: :icon_geek: that´s a difficult question...
I thought that´s the intention of a hoax? The smaller the number of suspicious people, the better the hoax, isn´t it?
Michael didn´t hoax his death to face a large crowd one day who say: gotcha! It´s just a hoax anyway, so come out!
He did it to protect himself, to protect his life and healthness.
So, if only a handful of people who REALLY are interested in start to be suspicious, hoax is a success.
But back to the main question!
What if there are no knowers - hmmm... a hoax NEEDS to have knowers, at least one, the person who starts a hoax needs at least one other person to help him.
If there´s a hoax, there are knowers, but the question is whether they come out into daylight ( at least a bit ) or keep it in the closet.
BTW: what - if - questions are always difficult, at least for me, because I have to move in parallel universes with their own logic...
Excellent thinking (except I don't necessarily agree with your reason 'why' he did it)! Three points:
1. If the media and the general public had screamed 'hoax' on 25th June that would have been an epic fail! All that planning come to nothing! He didn't want everyone to know.
2. If MJ had wanted to hide away he'd have made it more watertight than it was/is. No-one would've questioned his death. He didn't want no-one to know.
3. It's important that there were clues and a few of us picked up on them. He wanted or needed some to know.
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Oh curls.... :icon_lol:
That made me laugh:
If the media and the general public had screamed 'hoax' on 25th June that would have been an epic fail! All that planning come to nothing!
Epic fail indeed. Just imagine that :LolLolLolLol:
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And here we are! A bunch of believers, or lunatics who thinks that MJ is alive and can even contact him. And if we shout out to the others that Michael sends messages to us, then of course no one will believe us. How could anyone believe a bunch of lunatics anyway?And that's the perfect plan. We were invited to the hoax. Our curiosity made us find this forum and so we started the ARG with Michael. I was trying to find a role for us believers for so long. But I guess being part of the hoax and receiving all these messages from Michael are better than any role we could play. At least we know he is alive and we know that he has a message that we support.
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"We were invited to the hoax. Our curiosity made us find this forum and so we started the ARG with Michael"
In my case, from the second I heard the news I started searching for "fake death" and the 1st forum popped up. I felt like a weirdo. I was a gut feeling and searching almost on a ocd level in one day didn´t help much. My lack of believing (or accepting) that he died left me confused. Never ever I experienced such emotions before.
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Also, Bec....are you saying that you think the Dr's were telling the truth?
What is truth?
Does Harrison Ford lie when he plays Han Solo and says he did the fastest run through Alderan in the Galaxy?
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Diggyon
And if we shout out to the others that Michael sends messages to us, then of course no one will believe us. How could anyone believe a bunch of lunatics anyway?And that's the perfect plan.
I find this the most delicious irony of all! His secret friendship with us is completely safe!
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I have to admit that being called a "lunatic" makes me feel sad :P
Every time I check the forum while some people are around, they say to me: oh..., you also believe that Michal Jackson is still alive? Hahahaha!!.. And this "hahahaha" hurts me so much. Of course I don't give any answers because I cannot convince anyone in 2 minutes that Michael is alive. So I normally keep all the hoax info to myself and try not to speak about it in public because I don't want to be called crazy, lunatic or freak as people used to call Michael. It really hurts!
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Yep Diggy, in situations like these we get a light idea how it must have been for Michael to be "different" among "normal" people.
In my family only my two girls ( 10 and 13 ) know what I´m believing, and for them it´ s very normal because I explained and they understood.
But I keep it in the closet for others. That´s MY thing here, I don´t feel the need to convince s.o.
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Yep Diggy, in situations like these we get a light idea how it must have been for Michael to be "different" among "normal" people.
In my family only my two girls ( 10 and 13 ) know what I´m believing, and for them it´ s very normal because I explained and they understood.
But I keep it in the closet for others. That´s MY thing here, I don´t feel the need to convince s.o.
I have anyone to speak about the hoax, everybody around me are sure MJ is dead, I don't talk about it, because they will think I am crazy, it's why I am glad to be a member of this forum, I can read the posts of the other believers and expresses myself.
:-X
Thémis
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Yep Diggy, in situations like these we get a light idea how it must have been for Michael to be "different"exceptional among "normal average" people.
In my family only my two girls ( 10 and 13 ) know what I´m believing, and for them it´ s very normal because I explained and they understood.
But I keep it in the closet for others. That´s MY thing here, I don´t feel the need to convince s.o.
i am quite content to have only my kids know about my veiw of the situation.
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Is not "lunatic" to believe that someone could have faked his/her death for different reasons. The "lunacy" comes up when other convos get inside the picture and extrapolations take place.
MJ could have faked his death, but surely not save the world, demask the "illuminati" or to find a woman to live with (among other theories) imo. His reasons should be more serious than those and also connected to the well being of his family and children as well as to put behind bars those who tried to kill him. I could even think about a sting operation of some sort. But economy is inside the picture.
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Is not "lunatic" to believe that someone could have faked his/her death for different reasons. The "lunacy" comes up when other convos get inside the picture and extrapolations take place.
MJ could have faked his death, but surely not save the world, demask the "illuminati" or to find a woman to live with (among other theories) imo. His reasons should be more serious than those and also connected to the well being of his family and children as well as to put behind bars those who tried to kill him. I could even think about a sting operation of some sort. But economy is inside the picture.
I sooo agree with this post. This is how I feel too!
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Yep Diggy, in situations like these we get a light idea how it must have been for Michael to be "different"exceptional among "normal average" people.
In my family only my two girls ( 10 and 13 ) know what I´m believing, and for them it´ s very normal because I explained and they understood.
But I keep it in the closet for others. That´s MY thing here, I don´t feel the need to convince s.o.
i am quite content to have only my kids know about my veiw of the situation.
Sorry, "different" and "normal" weren´t meant in a rude way. English is not my natural language. Thanks for correcting anyway! I´m improving!
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Wow, this is more popular than I thought it would be.
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Yep Diggy, in situations like these we get a light idea how it must have been for Michael to be "different"exceptional among "normal average" people.
In my family only my two girls ( 10 and 13 ) know what I´m believing, and for them it´ s very normal because I explained and they understood.
But I keep it in the closet for others. That´s MY thing here, I don´t feel the need to convince s.o.
i am quite content to have only my kids know about my veiw of the situation.
Sorry, "different" and "normal" weren´t meant in a rude way. English is not my natural language. Thanks for correcting anyway! I´m improving!
sorry i didn't mean to be hurtful. i really think part of the struggle michael had to live with came from people just not getting that concept. :bearhug:
by the way about the beginning question remember the comment on the bashir thing : the ones who know don't tell :icon_e_wink:
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@ Thémis
I have anyone to speak about the hoax, everybody around me are sure MJ is dead, I don't talk about it, because they will think I am crazy, it's why I am glad to be a member of this forum, I can read the posts of the other believers and expresses myself.
The same thing happens to me and so I do not speak about more.....the important thing is that all us gathered here...Michael gave us a huge gift...the rest does not matter :icon_razz: :moonwalk_: :bearhug: Love you all.. :bearhug: