Post by: TS_comments on November 11, 2011, 03:11:15 AM
And now (drum roll) … we are at the final level—level number 7! (7 represents completion). Now it’s time to take everything that we have learned so far (in the previous levels, etc), and put the last few pieces of the puzzle into place.
This is the final frontier for the hoax; the “when’s” and “why’s” have already been thoroughly established, especially through the numerology—and more than a year has gone by, without anyone even making a serious attempt to claim the $999 reward. Therefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
The previous levels were not a waste, because without them we would not be where we are now. Much of the research has already been done, and some of the pieces have already come together (just like the picture above); but we still have a few major areas that need completed (just like the picture above). As I have said already, the minor details on the “how’s” are not very important (and may never been fully understood); however, for more than one reason, the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved.
For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7. Another major area, that keeps popping up unresolved, is the idea that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on some day other than 6-25-09; and closely related is the fairly common idea that two or more ambulances were used (supposedly different lettering, reflector, wrong shadows, etc).
There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo). There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
The ambulance photo needed to be staged in advance, because of the great difficulty getting a good picture through the window “on the fly”; and if you missed the one chance, you would not get another. But staging that photo in advance would not raise public suspicion, if it was done indoors.
Also, some seem to think that the ambulance picture was generated from nothing, in good-old “Photoshop”; but the reality is, no matter how good you are at Photoshop, you don’t just start from nothing and end up with a high resolution photograph (like the ambulance photo). Staging the ambulance photo gives you the basic picture(s) to work from; and then you can modify it with Photoshop (such as adding the car reflection, by taking a separate photo of the car, and then layering it in Photoshop with some transparency).
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked. Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.
8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
penguin/
At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Last but not least, here is a real good statement from bec, which she posted in my recent thread about the timing of the 911 call (12:20 or 12:21?). Keep this concept in mind, because it applies to far more than just the 911 call. “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203)}.
Post by: willddoMJ on November 11, 2011, 03:25:35 AM
btw do you have 1046 words, which 1+0+4+6 = 11? lolol/ just saying
Post by: MJJSmile on November 11, 2011, 03:30:54 AM
Now I'm gonna read it, waiting for level 7b :P
Thank you TS as always with L.O.V.E.
Post by: annieareyouokannie on November 11, 2011, 03:40:36 AM
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 11, 2011, 03:43:48 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 03:52:14 AM
7a - debunking all the false theories about the ambulance - if we can do that we shall learn the truth about the ambulance story
7b - we have to solve the mystery of what/who was in the ambulance on june 25th 2009, but we discussed it before and none of the points could be fully validated as being true
I wan to be optimistic but we have too little info so I am not sure if we can complete this mission you propose to us.
We can imagine many scenarios but how can we prove any of them is the right one?
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 11, 2011, 03:53:04 AM
But didnt Brian Oxman admit the ambulance pic was fake?
We established that he was also suspicious about the picture being a fake, but he had no real proof that it was a photoshop....he just confirmed his thoughts about something not being right about the whole picture, and he was right.... But it was staged before hand and finishing touches were made by Ben Evenstead after...
Obviously Brian Oxman has been lurking around these hoax sites as well......God Bless.
Thankyou TS..I will get to work again...God Bless. Oh by the way, how perfect was the timing of your 111th post on the 11.11.11......
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 03:55:13 AM
That's the only difference we have about available information comparing to the last time the proposed subjects were discussed.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 03:58:02 AM
Do you plan to help us?
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 11, 2011, 04:12:12 AM
The ambulance photo needed to be staged in advance, because of the great difficulty getting a good picture through the window “on the fly”; and if you missed the one chance, you would not get another. But staging that photo in advance would not raise public suspicion, if it was done indoors.
So if MJ used 2 days then....
First staged day before June 25th 2009 MJ got a photo taken of himself (although MJ looked pretty young in the ambo pic) or used an old photo.
Second staged day (June 25th) Ben takes a photo of the ambo (just for the reflection reason and to show the other photog that he has got the photo of MJ...to make it seem authentic)...because there is a huge risk Ben might not get the photo of MJ AT ALL on June 25th 2009). Then the photo were further modified to look authentic...just to show it was taken on the same day such as the red car reflection etc.
This would mean Ben would have to be in on it, but not the other photog.
Or maybe the whole photo was staged before June 25th 2009...including the reflection, MJ and inside the ambo.
If this whole photo was staged before June 25th 2009 or even part of it, the medics would have to be in on it.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 04:13:41 AM
I just try to state a few things that are true to me, let's say I consider them solid facts:
1. THE AMBULANCE WAS AT CARLWOOD DRIVE 100 ON JUNE 25TH 2009. I believe this because it was recorded by an independent channel. So it had to be there.
2. The ambulance picture is fake.
Now about this I have 2 alternatives:
a. it was staged in advance ------> MJ is alive 100%
b. it was photoshoped after the ambulance left the residence ------> MJ could be alive or could be dead.
If someone could prove the ambulance picture was staged in advance I would really appreciate it.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 04:26:08 AM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 11, 2011, 04:30:29 AM
I want so much to know the truth :-\ :-\ :-\.
I just try to state a few things that are true to me, let's say I consider them solid facts:
1. THE AMBULANCE WAS AT CARLWOOD DRIVE 100 ON JUNE 25TH 2009. I believe this because it was recorded by an independent channel. So it had to be there.
2. The ambulance picture is fake.
Now about this I have 2 alternatives:
a. it was staged in advance ------> MJ is alive 100%
b. it was photoshoped after the ambulance left the residence ------> MJ could be alive or could be dead.
If someone could prove the ambulance picture was staged in advance I would really appreciate it.
Gina, we already did... Did you really pay attention in all those levels? Read the thread about the ambulance picture again.
But I'm lost TS. Didn't we already establish that there was only one ambulance and that it must have been there on June 25? It was lighting on the reflection that caused the ambulance to look 'different' and you posted all those screens of the plants outside the gates that matched the scene just a few days later. I had the theory of the ambulance being there on a different day, but only if it would have been at least 6 months to a year earlier, when it wasn't a house of significance yet. Any time after December 2008 would raise too much suspicion.
I do still think it's highly strange though that the were close to no paps and fans outside that gate.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 04:40:57 AM
I am sorry I don't remember the reasoning for this conclusion.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 11, 2011, 04:50:31 AM
We did prove the ambulance picture was staged in ADVANCE?
I am sorry I don't remember the reasoning for this conclusion.
Then go read...
Post by: annieareyouokannie on November 11, 2011, 04:52:24 AM
the pic. I think it was taken on another day, and the photographer just ran alongside the ambulance to make it
look like he was taking a photo. So I think the paramedics (or are they) are in on it.
Post by: curls on November 11, 2011, 05:00:56 AM
Post by: loyalfan on November 11, 2011, 06:12:13 AM
Post by: MJEnjoyYourself on November 11, 2011, 07:05:19 AM
Well, little anticipating a level 7b, for me it would make sense is that the June 25, 2009 was an ambulance in Carolwood, picking up a dummy size, weight and appearance as MJ, and take him to UCLA.
Due to the photo of the ambulance was made prior to 25J, Ben Evenstad only needed to "simulate" that he took the picture shown and play a role in the eyes of the people, and begin with the public spectacle.
This really does explain why it carried something (the dummy) from UCLA to the CORONER, and this also would explain the photos that were shown at trial, at UCLA and the autopsy, in which the alleged MJ's body had no belly button! (like a dummy)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 07:08:39 AM
Read what? This?We did prove the ambulance picture was staged in ADVANCE?Then go read...
I am sorry I don't remember the reasoning for this conclusion.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=18053.0
Post by: Adi on November 11, 2011, 08:24:13 AM
Actually, maybe that will help give me perspective lol
Post by: BeTheChange on November 11, 2011, 09:01:59 AM
Ok...so we begin with the most 'simplistic' scenario: No Hoax (i.e. there was a real emergency on June 25th and MJ died as a result).
So...June 25th, Murray notices MJ has stopped breathing. Alvarez rushes in and at some point calls 911. He and Murray 'try' CPR until paramedics get there. An ambulance and firetruck arrive at Carolwood a few minutes later and paramedics continue CPR efforts until it's decided that he should be transported to UCLA. They 'load' MJ up into the ambulance and drive over to UCLA, where a team of doctors (led by Dr. Cooper) 'work' on MJ until he is finally pro_ounced (lol) dead at 2:26pm.
Other scenario: Hoax (i.e. there was no real emergency)
TS has advised that we should try to keep it as 'simple' as possible...which does make absolute 'sense' in order for it to be a 'believable' scenario. This would not only be for the benefit of the 'media' but also those that were in and around the house on June 25th, that were NOT in on the hoax.
One of the first things, I believe that had to take place before the 'big day' (that would NOT have been necessary if it was a real emergency) was the staged ambulance photo. It's been proven it was staged, so I don't think we need to rehash all that. IMO, this didn't necessarily take place at Carolwood. TS said it could've been taken indoors, which of course is a possibility (i.e. maybe in the garage at Carolwood?). Given the fact that there were always fans lingering around Carolwood, though...and an ambulance on any day would raise suspicion/panic...I believe this photo was taken at another location. This also wouldn't raise any suspicions for any of MJ's staff at the house at seeing an ambulance on site prior to June 25th.
Ben is in on it...the ambu pic is too 'perfect' of a shot for him not to be. All he would've had to do on June 25th is take background/scenery shots outside the gates of Carolwood (i.e. the leaves, the red car reflection) and then layer them into the 'staged' shot they took 'the other day'.
Next, we have the issue of Alvarez and the 911 call. IF it was a real emergency, there's no doubt in my mind that 911 would've been called immediately. But we know it wasn't. I'm not sure if we're supposed to get into that whole 911 call in this thread because there's already another thread for that. But, in looking at 'factors' that would have had to change from the 'no hoax' scenario to this one....and keeping in mind the precise 'timing' of the call, I think it makes more 'sense' that there was no call to 911 (since there was no real emergency)...i.e. the call was also 'staged'/recorded in advance.
But we do know that an ambulance and firetruck did show up at Carolwood on June 25th and that would be in line with 'keeping it simple' and much more realistic than a 'phantom' ambulance. But if there was no 'real' 911 call and yet a real ambulance and firetruck showed up on June 25th....that would mean that someone in a 'key' position had to be 'in on it' and helped make that happen...my guess would probably be Ruda.
The only other thing I can think of at the moment that would've had to 'change' or be staged in advance (before getting in level 7b that is)...would be the bedroom itself. This is most likely why the light was on all night in the bedroom. If it was a real emergency, then of course there'd be no need to change anything. In order for a 'hoax' to look like a real death...AND in order for Murray to be charged with a crime...the bedroom 'scene' had to be setup prior to any 'outsiders' entering the room on June 25th.
I'm sure I'll contribute more...or even come to see some errors in what I've just written...but boy oh boy...I'm SO excited right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know what's gonna happen after level 7c...and I don't want to get ahead of myself, so I'll try to focus on each part of level 7 as it arrives.
Thanks again TS!
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 09:08:52 AM
Quote
This is most likely why the light was on all night in the bedroom
Poor MJ - there was no way he could sleep if the light was on. Conrad should have simply turn off the lights if he wanted Michael to sleep :roll: :roll: :roll:
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 11, 2011, 09:10:25 AM
I also recall there being a part at the end of the ambulance video where there was "another" ambulance inside the gate after the original ambulance had pulled away (with no sirens by the way). Going with the simplest explanation, it could be possible that the video was edited to put the beginning (when the ambulance was inside the gates) at the end of the video in order to create the illusion that there were two ambulances. If someone could assist me in finding and posting the video for reference, that would be great. Please feel free to rip my theory apart if it doesn't make sense (nicely, of course :) ).
p.s. I love you guys, you're all amazing and I'm sure we can figure this out if we stay focused, use common sense, keep an open mind, and do it with LOVE.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 09:13:22 AM
Quote
the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible
SIMPLICITY - what a wonderful word bow/
..................
Too bad I've lost the ability to think is simple terms now /pull hair/ Everything has to be huge/mysterious/complicated :shock:
And I feel so stupid because I am the only one who doesn't know why we have to believe that infamous ambulance photo was staged in advance :'(
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 11, 2011, 09:22:47 AM
Not sure how it works, but couldnt they have took photos of the wall and the leaves and photoshopped them intoThe "paramedics" we see in the ambulance picture don't necessarily have to be the paramedics that testified at the trial. We didn't see their faces in the picture. For all we know it could be Alvarez or other people who are in on it (and playing numerous roles) dressed up as paramedics for the staged picture. And just as pretty much everything else in this hoax, there could be several other possible explanations. /scream/
the pic. I think it was taken on another day, and the photographer just ran alongside the ambulance to make it
look like he was taking a photo. So I think the paramedics (or are they) are in on it.
Post by: dragonflylilies on November 11, 2011, 09:27:31 AM
Moving on to level 7b. I still believe that MJ was helping to take care of one of his impersonaters that had fallen ill and needed round the clock care from some kind of doctor. Which could explain why he insisted on Murray being his personal physician. Why would he want a cardiologist, instead of a regular physican to oversee his health? IMO, he needed Murray because he was friends with him and he knew Murray was in financial strain. He also knew that no other doctor would be willing to put their medical license and possible freedom on the line for MJ. Which is why MJ wanted to pay Murray so much money. I do believe that someone did die that day, but it wasnt MJ. It was his impersonator. The reason why I think that is because of what the EMT's said about the person they saw in the bedroom. A sick, frailed, old man, balding. He looked like a cancer patient. MJ was not sick, not frailed, not old looking and certainly not balding. MJ is skinny, but not so skinny that he looks like a cancer patient. Now lets go back to when this all went down. Murray comes down stairs and tells the cook to get Prince and get Paris! The kids new that something was happening but not to their daddy. If it was MJ dying any normal human being would call 911, but they had to wait because MJ needed to get out of the house quickly which is why they waited so long to call 911. This is when the ambulance comes in. Ben is called there to get the pic, but Ben already had a pic of MJ that he had photoshopped from Farrah. Ben is seen snapping the pic but used the photoshop pic instead because it had to be believeable.
So, to summerize. The ambulance pic was taken at an earlier date from Farrah and photoshopped with MJ. There was a person in the ambulance on 6/25, but it was not MJ, it was someone him and Murray was helping to take care of. Murray's behavior in court after reading the verdict just confirms that Michael is alive!
Sorry so long.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 09:32:31 AM
Post by: dragonflylilies on November 11, 2011, 09:43:50 AM
Excuse me Dragon but if an impersonator was sick of cancer or another terminal illness and died on June 25th in MJ's house, we would have a corpse and it would have been no need for the coroner to be in the hoax, so the autopsy report would have stated that the cause of death was cancer or another terminal illness.The coroner could be in on the hoax as well. I just find it so hard to believe that a person could have that many drugs at such a high level in their system and not be sick. The blood was sent off to toxicology to find out what kind of drugs was in the system, not to find out if there is cancer cells in the blood. The coroner is the one who made the determination as to what that person died of, not the toxicologist. They only reported the drugs in the system, as well as the levels.
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 11, 2011, 09:47:37 AM
Good Luck People !!!!!
Love
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 09:49:46 AM
Well, it is still possible the coroner to be in the hoax and report the acute propofol intoxication as teh cause of death instead of cancer, in case we have a double who died.
Post by: ilovemjforever on November 11, 2011, 10:00:25 AM
This is my take on the ambulance picture. I think Ben is in on the hoax. He would have to be to know to photoshop MJ in the ambulance. I don't know if anyone has ever asked this before, but when was Farrah Faucett taken to the hospital? She is a celebrity and lived in the same area as MJ did. Ben could have been staking out her residence and caught them on camera with her in the ambulance leaving her home. He then could have had a conversation with MJ about getting the picture of her and MJ could have asked him to play around with the picture and put him in pic instead of Farrah. Which could have explained the difference of reflections on the ambulance picture and the surroundings at Carolwood.Wow,dragon,this theory is exactly what i was thinking.The sick impersonator would explain why all those drugs were in the house.The oxygen chamber,and why no one was in a hurry to call 911.This patient was expected to die anyway,if he was terminally ill with cancer.This could also explain why no one was allowed in Michael's room.I never considered the idea about Farrah,but it makes a lot of sense.You r definitely right about Murrays behavior after the verdict was read,he did not seem to be concerned at all. I also believe that the corner was in on it.
Moving on to level 7b. I still believe that MJ was helping to take care of one of his impersonaters that had fallen ill and needed round the clock care from some kind of doctor. Which could explain why he insisted on Murray being his personal physician. Why would he want a cardiologist, instead of a regular physican to oversee his health? IMO, he needed Murray because he was friends with him and he knew Murray was in financial strain. He also knew that no other doctor would be willing to put their medical license and possible freedom on the line for MJ. Which is why MJ wanted to pay Murray so much money. I do believe that someone did die that day, but it wasnt MJ. It was his impersonator. The reason why I think that is because of what the EMT's said about the person they saw in the bedroom. A sick, frailed, old man, balding. He looked like a cancer patient. MJ was not sick, not frailed, not old looking and certainly not balding. MJ is skinny, but not so skinny that he looks like a cancer patient. Now lets go back to when this all went down. Murray comes down stairs and tells the cook to get Prince and get Paris! The kids new that something was happening but not to their daddy. If it was MJ dying any normal human being would call 911, but they had to wait because MJ needed to get out of the house quickly which is why they waited so long to call 911. This is when the ambulance comes in. Ben is called there to get the pic, but Ben already had a pic of MJ that he had photoshopped from Farrah. Ben is seen snapping the pic but used the photoshop pic instead because it had to be believeable.
So, to summerize. The ambulance pic was taken at an earlier date from Farrah and photoshopped with MJ. There was a person in the ambulance on 6/25, but it was not MJ, it was someone him and Murray was helping to take care of. Murray's behavior in court after reading the verdict just confirms that Michael is alive!
Sorry so long.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 11, 2011, 10:03:38 AM
Post by: dragonflylilies on November 11, 2011, 10:16:38 AM
I don't know. I could be grasping at straws right now. I am just trying to debunk all the theories that have been put out there. Now that the trial is over.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 11, 2011, 10:26:03 AM
If we go to the documentary that Murray put out. He was saying the MJ peed the bed all the time and that his bed smelled. If Michael had a problem with peeing the bed, don't you think that the kids that would sleep in his bed with him would mention that. Especially the one's who alleged the abuse. That would definately come out in court. Which it didn't. Also, courtesy of another poster who put out an explanation on condom cathedars. They are not normally used on those who are not circumcised, they do not fit properly. Also, if I remember correctly, the autopsy said something about prostate issues. Which could fit with the person who did die on that day. (not Michael) He could of had prostate cancer. This person could have been suffering with some kind of illness and this could have been an assisted suicide, hence the amounts of drugs in the system.
I don't know. I could be grasping at straws right now. I am just trying to debunk all the theories that have been put out there. Now that the trial is over.
I agree with this post.
Also, I'm thinking that bed certainly wouldn't be for sale if it were covered in PEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You once again take me back to thinking that maybe a "double" died there of cancer...and loving Michael took him in.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 11, 2011, 10:36:39 AM
I tend to believe that the ambulance footage is staged as a part of te Dome project http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=18187.0, a footage in the Dome Studio exactly simulated to the Carolwood scene, which would have been a big challenge and it is obvious that they succeeded ;) Ben made the infamous ambulance picture with the paramedics and the 'patient' MJ or a dummy. The final picture is photoshopped. On 06/25/09 the ambulance MJ 'slowly' drove backwards, and drove to the hospital with MJ in it. After arrival at UCLA, MJ jumped out of the ambulance and hid at the back of a car of one of the bodyguards (remember what Conrad Murray said in the trailer of the Docu that Michael used to hide in the back of the car) and went into hiding. The personnel of the UCLA who took care of the 'patient' and testified at trial are hoax involved.
Please watch this vid about the bodyguards, I haven't seen this one before. I don't know if it's real, but it is shot from another angle. Watch the hand knuckle bumps of the bodyguards :shock: and watch the ambulance and the black car at UCLA. Although I don't know for sure if it's ambulance no 71.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMpvJI33Vn8&feature=related [/youtube]
L.O.V.E.
Post by: dragonflylilies on November 11, 2011, 10:49:52 AM
If we keep it as simple as possible, with a small amount of people in the know. The employees at UCLA doesn't need to be in on the hoax. All they know is that they are trying to save Michael Jackson. The world knew how Michael changed his looks over the years and people don't look the same as they do with make-up on. Also, if you have been persummed dead for at least an hour, the color of your skin will change as well. This goes back to the double person. He may have had several plastic surgeries to look like Michael. People would think that they were working on MJ because he still looked like him in some sense. They just believed what they were told. Unless, they had Michael's DNA on file and matched it to that person's DNA, they wouldn't know the difference.
These are the people I think are in on the hoax from the beginning: Murray, the family, coroner, Ben, Frank D., and a couple of the bodyguards.
As far as the trial itself, I am still trying to figure this out.
I have always felt strongly about the double person from the very get go. I cannot explain it.
Post by: monstertooty on November 11, 2011, 10:53:33 AM
Post by: monstertooty on November 11, 2011, 11:12:17 AM
Michael's date of death reported as June 9, 2009. Yet another WTF??
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/news/article_1609657.php/Witness-Jackson-doc-ordered-removal-of-meds-before-ambulance-call
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 11, 2011, 11:36:11 AM
Note the edit after "ambulance 1" leaves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU&feature=player_embedded#! WTF??Thank you monstertooty that was the video I was referring to in my first post. This may be a bit off topic, but notice how the window on the fire truck is not open (at the end of the video). The picture of the 911 call screen looks like it was taken thru an open window, but how can that be if the window is rolled up?? Unless someone was playing with the windows during an emergency. This in conjunction with other evidence leads me to believe that the picture of the call screen was fabricated along with the ambulance photo and the 911 call.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 11, 2011, 11:56:54 AM
Post by: katooooooo on November 11, 2011, 12:00:03 PM
Not sure how it works, but couldnt they have took photos of the wall and the leaves and photoshopped them intoThe "paramedics" we see in the ambulance picture don't necessarily have to be the paramedics that testified at the trial. We didn't see their
the pic. I think it was taken on another day, and the photographer just ran alongside the ambulance to make it
look like he was taking a photo. So I think the paramedics (or are they) are in on it.
faces in the picture. For all we know it could be Alvarez or other people who are in on it (and playing numerous roles) dressed up as paramedics for the staged picture. And just as pretty much everything else in this hoax, there could be several other possible explanations. /scream/
Don't forget the paramedic on the pic who is sit near Mj Head is white...The paramedic who testified at the trial is black and he say he was the one at MJ head in the ambulance. IMO this pic was taken before june 25 (Ben Evenstad said: That day and the other day) What if this pic was taken earlier in June, when MJ was ''ill'' and KO send him home? I don't know, it's just a thought...
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 12:17:46 PM
a double not in the hoax not in the hoax in the hoax
MJ himself in an induced state of "death" not in the hoax in the hoax in the hoax
no body in the hoax in the hoax in the hoax
a dummy in the hoax in the hoax in the hoax
If I am not mistaking, the less number of people who have to be in the hoax is in case of a double.
But how can Mj have the double to die exactly that day?
ps: sorry I don't know how to insert a table here
Post by: bec on November 11, 2011, 12:23:18 PM
The chances of a double dying of a terminal disease in exact accordance with MJs multi-decade numerology hoax plan is a statistical impossibility.
77 days before 9/9/09, with autopsy released on 9/9/09.
6/25/09=2040=spaceship intro that parallels Elvis's 8/16/77=2001 intro.
Holding the "body" 70 days before burial (9/3/09) in accordance with Egyptian pharaohs to ensure resurrection, which was 7 days inclusive before 9/9/09.
The Dangerous autograph from the early 1990's which equates to 999.
This Is It vowels=999.
On this day, with the "911" call being placed at exactly 12:21, with the 333 pages in 7 files from the FBI released on 12/21.
If someone really died the autopsy would be accurate.
If someone really died the paramedics would give accurate testimony (on the bed, on the floor, half on the bed, feet on the floor, etc).
If someone really died, resuscitation attempts would not continue for 2 hours (12:21 911 call-2:26 pronounced). That's nonsense.
If someone really died, the ambulance pic would not need to be faked and would not look like MJ from 1987ish.
If someone really died, it would not appear that MJ himself sat up on the stretcher entering UCLA, in a 7 pic .gif, with the 3 photos that contain MJ's image held for days before eventual release to put the pieces together to form the .gif image... entering UCLA with an elevated stretcher.
If someone really died, the defense team would have pressed Alvarez on his conflicting reports of what happened at the scene, as well as the Coroner's assistant on her photographs which clearly illustrated moved items in the home indicating evidence tampering, as well as Walgren's handling of evidence items without gloves, as well as the doc saying the IV line couldn't fit in a pocket and then taking one out of his pocket.
If someone really died, court would have no reason to be faked. And it obviously is fake for a thousand reason I don't have time to list.
If someone really died, why is LaToya dressing the corpse? How is Karen putting makeup on it almost 70 days later? Why is the pic submitted by the Prosecution altered in photoshop and appear to be a perfectly healthy (albeit s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d) Michael Jackson (who looks really incredible btw) that everyone is trying to tell you looks like a cancer patient? With no belly button? On an elevated stretcher? In one pic with the head facing left and the other the head facing right?
No one died, ok? Can we please move on from this point collectively as a team?
Post by: underthemoon on November 11, 2011, 12:34:52 PM
First thank you TS for the level 7 ! Your post's are always a highlight of the day !
The theory that a impersonator get's finally ill and Michael helps him and cared for him sounds logical, BUT he can't know the date and the timing is importent ! Remember the 25.June 2009 , the birth and the Pepsi accident. From birth to Pepsi accident are the same number of days like from Pepsi to the 25.June....can this be coincidence ? No, my thought.
The Autopsie dosn't mention chronical terminal illness.
So in my mind, that can't be...
The version that Michael faked his death to save his life is also weird, because we often heard that he planed the hoax decades before and how could he know decades before that he has to fake his death to save his life ?
How far is the music industrie going to get what they want ? They made stars and let them fall.....they are playing dirty games with human beings....my opinion... what is when they made the story of the child abuser to get Michael down ? Nothing is impossible and money makes monster from the ppl...
Only thoughts..
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 11, 2011, 12:44:36 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 11, 2011, 01:14:15 PM
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 11, 2011, 01:28:40 PM
Why are we going backwards? It's very difficult to move forward when people insist on slavishly adhering to tired, old, long ago debunked theories./bravo/ I wanted to express how I felt about the lack of progress due to the rehashing of debunked theories, but I wasn't sure how to say it without sounding rude or condescending. The last thing I want to do is hurt someones feelings or make someone feel stupid or that their opinions don't matter. So thank you Bec for getting the point across in a logical matter.
The chances of a double dying of a terminal disease in exact accordance with MJs multi-decade numerology hoax plan is a statistical impossibility.
77 days before 9/9/09, with autopsy released on 9/9/09.
6/25/09=2040=spaceship intro that parallels Elvis's 8/16/77=2001 intro.
Holding the "body" 70 days before burial (9/3/09) in accordance with Egyptian pharaohs to ensure resurrection, which was 7 days inclusive before 9/9/09.
The Dangerous autograph from the early 1990's which equates to 999.
This Is It vowels=999.
On this day, with the "911" call being placed at exactly 12:21, with the 333 pages in 7 files from the FBI released on 12/21.
If someone really died the autopsy would be accurate.
If someone really died the paramedics would give accurate testimony (on the bed, on the floor, half on the bed, feet on the floor, etc).
If someone really died, resuscitation attempts would not continue for 2 hours (12:21 911 call-2:26 pronounced). That's nonsense.
If someone really died, the ambulance pic would not need to be faked and would not look like MJ from 1987ish.
If someone really died, it would not appear that MJ himself sat up on the stretcher entering UCLA, in a 7 pic .gif, with the 3 photos that contain MJ's image held for days before eventual release to put the pieces together to form the .gif image... entering UCLA with an elevated stretcher.
If someone really died, the defense team would have pressed Alvarez on his conflicting reports of what happened at the scene, as well as the Coroner's assistant on her photographs which clearly illustrated moved items in the home indicating evidence tampering, as well as Walgren's handling of evidence items without gloves, as well as the doc saying the IV line couldn't fit in a pocket and then taking one out of his pocket.
If someone really died, court would have no reason to be faked. And it obviously is fake for a thousand reason I don't have time to list.
If someone really died, why is LaToya dressing the corpse? How is Karen putting makeup on it almost 70 days later? Why is the pic submitted by the Prosecution altered in photoshop and appear to be a perfectly healthy (albeit s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d) Michael Jackson (who looks really incredible btw) that everyone is trying to tell you looks like a cancer patient? With no belly button? On an elevated stretcher? In one pic with the head facing left and the other the head facing right?
No one died, ok? Can we please move on from this point collectively as a team?
Post by: dragonflylilies on November 11, 2011, 01:39:35 PM
I am not saying that the person I believe died that day had cancer. I was just repeating what one of the Emt's said that person looked like. I also don't believe that MJ would ask someone to die in his place so that he could hoax his death. This is why I think the person that died, was very ill. Hence, needing the physician, the oxygen and the drugs. I think that the date is really just a coincidence.
As I have said before, this is all my opinion and I mean no disrespect towards anyone's thought, feelings or beliefs. We are doing this all for the love we have for Michael.
Post by: Sarahli on November 11, 2011, 02:12:32 PM
Quote
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc).
I always thought that the ambulance was present on June 25th both at the house and at the hospital because it would have been too risky to staged the scenes before and just release the footage for the press. Someone might have noticed the staged "performances", which is a first risky situation. And not having the ambulance present on June 25th is another big risky situation because the potential witnesses cannot be controlled. So to avoid all these risks it makes more sense for the ambulance to be present that day and both at the house and the hospital.
We also have consider that not everybody is in on it, and for this reason the ambulance had to be present on 25th June 2009.....
- people in the house = I don't think that they all are in in it, so if there was no ambulance present on that day they would have of course find something suspicious there.
-possible fans/paparazzi outside the house = it's not possible to control what was going on in the street. There can have been people/fans present at that time and hour. There is this tour bus present with several people inside, I am not sure that these people were paid actors.
-personnel of FS71/LAFD = we always said that only key people are or need to be involved, so if the ambulance was not used on that day they certainly would have thought that something was wrong. The ambulance had to be used that day for this specific "emergency" in order to not raise any suspicion.
-UCLA personnel = if the ambulance didn't show up at all I think that it would have been noticed, especially considering that it was about Michael Jackson and that this would have made a lot of noise in a real scenario. If no "sirens" went on then some people there might have find it suspicious.
Post by: paula-c on November 11, 2011, 02:14:00 PM
Post by: scorpionchik on November 11, 2011, 02:29:53 PM
I think a cancer tumor would have been discovered at the autopsy.
Well, it is still possible the coroner to be in the hoax and report the acute propofol intoxication as teh cause of death instead of cancer, in case we have a double who died.
See to me is hard to believe coroner is in hoax unless there is a very good reason for that to cover/help Michael from assassins, for example. In this scenario, coroner can be in hoax and he would definitely write AR that would describe Michael for people to believe dead patient is Michael. He would not write in AR cause of death cancer even if cancer patient really died as MJ. I hope you get my point.
Post by: luvandmissumike on November 11, 2011, 02:38:19 PM
Post by: Galina on November 11, 2011, 03:27:14 PM
Post by: Galina on November 11, 2011, 03:46:24 PM
Post by: blankie on November 11, 2011, 03:53:59 PM
moonwalk_/
Post by: Jennie on November 11, 2011, 04:24:46 PM
1. So perhaps someone died that day, and perhaps they had heart problems and that would explain the hiring of a cardiologist.
2. Why argue facts that any other time we would see no problem with, like the adress the EMT machine showed in regards to the location of the caller. I dont care if there was a cell tower near by or not, it is ridiculous that EMT's on an emergency call would have to start guessing where they have to go to reach the person in desperate need. And how perfect that the adress given is one for a motel, the call could have been made from there in absolute privacy.
3. Assuming that is what happened, MJ can make a safe escape from the motel while everyone else is rushing to his mansion in somewhat of a panic or at least concerned. While all the attention is over there MJ in disguise could have headed to the airport, LAX airport was shut down for a bit that day for an unknown flight, got on a plane and got out of town.
4. Another thing I dont care about is how professional the paramedics may be, they are still human and act according, they knew they were headed into a prestigous area to pick up their patient and I am sure they glanced at the patient even if I believe one said at the trial that he didn't. The paramedics say they did not recognize MJ so who is to say it was MJ lying there. Maybe this is the type of detail we do not need to figure out and simply need to understand it was not MJ. Really, who would dare question or doubt that it was MJ when everything else fits, it's the right people and the scene fits the wide spread rumors of MJ's weirdness. Nobody will dare voice doubts.
5. This brings us to the ambulance photo. Do you all remember the interview about taking MJ's dying pic with Ben Evansted? He said that it all started as a normal day they were going to hang out around MJ's mansion and then they intercepted a call about an ambulance headed to MJ's mansion AND he added he didn't make much of it cause it was nothing unusual for an ambulance to go there, that it would go there time to time. He then said they were not too concerned, it could have been anybody in the mansion who was sick. He continued to say that they managed to get up close to the front of the EMT vehicule and read the screen : 50 yr old male, not breathing. Ben says he then quickly realized it was something serious and that it was MJ.
6. Wich brings us to the famous pic itself, maybe when Ben had the photos developped he realized he didn't get a good pic. But probably knew he was the only one to have snapped a pic of in the ambulance so maybe he went into his archives and started photoshopping. I'm sure he's very ressourcefull and has acces to tons of pics. It dont explain the garbage though but regardless it is still a possibility.
7. As for the toxicology reports.. Has anyone been paying attention to the Bieber baby allegations? I have and the lawyer for the women bringing the baby allegations said the other day on HLN that he was broght in the case to make sure the tests are conducted properly and not tampered with. He says we all know those things happen all the time, tampering of test results. At the hospital again nobody dared to question wether it was really MJ and ID'd him using his driver's license, no DNA.
Now to me this seems quite real and simple, only minor discrepancy is that the whole time the patient was ?? and MJ was already out of the pic. Let's not forget the mafia's good old saying: "It's easy for 3 men to keep a secret when 2 are dead!" So who could MJ really trust?? My guess is family, a couple body guards and the good old doc who would be the fall guy for a big fat check I'm sure.
Yes I'm sure you will all point out some missing details in my theory, but TS said not to worry about all the little details cause we will probably never know and it is a realistic scenario and simple with not too many people involved. But go ahead and give your feedback, please... but keep it constructive please! bangbang 8)
Post by: dragonflylilies on November 11, 2011, 04:33:08 PM
Post by: PureLove on November 11, 2011, 05:25:50 PM
- Michael's heart stops when Murray goes to the bathroom and talks with his gf on the phone. Murray comes BACK and finds him lifeless and screams Alvarez and Prince to get to the room. Prince goes up to the room according to Alvarez but he doesn't go up to the room and stays with the chef and Paris downstairs and they hold each other's hands and pray according to the chef. Murray asks if someone in the room knows how to do CPR and then he starts to do CPR on the bed and he gives mouth to mouth which he never did before but he does it because Michael is his friend. He asks Alvarez to call 911. Alvarez makes the call, paramedics and also a firetruck arrives to the house. Paramedics work on the body who they can't recognize at first and tell that the victim who dies looks like an old, fragile Asian guy but then they say at the trial that they recognize Michael Jackson. The body is brought to UCLA but the doctors can not save him and bring back to life. Michael dies.
With all these contradictions and ludicrousness, I do not understand how people can still think that Michael's death is real.
Now I want to move to another level and consider the hoax with as FEW people as possible in it
-Firstly I would like to say that a sick impersonator died theory is not possible as they couldn't arrange the exact day 6/25/2009 which is so perfect for the numerology side of the hoax. I do not believe someone really died that day BUT I believe that a dead body was used to make the whole scenario look more real, for the ones who are in on it to tell the events like they really experienced it, and to deceive the ones who are not in on it.
A dead body would be useful if the paramedics are not in on the hoax. I'm not so sure if the doctors could be cheated with it but it was not possible to cheat the DA with a dead body who died long ago. BUT would it be possible to find a dead person who died that morning of 6/25 and pump propofol into his system? Would that work to deceive the DA? And is it possible to find a dead body that easy? I don't have an answer for these questions. BUT if it is possible, it would solve a lot of problems.
I still do not believe the DA would be deceived but the paramedics and the doctors could be deceived with it IF they are not in on it and according to this scenario, they are not. Because we need to keep as few people as we can. So, the paramedics, the doctors at UCLA do not need to be in on the hoax. The DA already knows about it and they arrange a fake autopsy report. And a dead body makes Michael's death more real as the doctors and paramedics give their testimony without lying in the court.
Without a dead body, whatever or whoever used for the ambulance picture and again whatever or whoever was brought to the hospital, the paramedics and the doctors have to be in on it. And as long as the FBI is involved which I believe that they are, it is not so hard for the FBI to make the doctors and paramedics or the DA cooperate with them. And especially IF the sting is against to medical field which is another possibility. <<< The possible FBI involvement brings more people into the hoax. It gives Michael the possibility of arranging fake documents, fake trials and fake witnesses which is the only possibility to pull the hoax imo.
About the ambulance picture
- First off, I do believe Ben is in on it. If we consider Ben's slip up "we were there that day and the other da... uhmm", there must be two days where they shoot the ambulance scene. The first scene was shot on probably on another location and on another place because there had to be a clear picture to show to the media as another proof that Michael was in that ambulance and dead. And to take a picture from a moving ambulance and from the tinted windows of it would be so hard and the picture could be blurry. No need to risk it and they brought an ambulance which doesn't need to be the same with the one on the 25th, maybe Michael or maybe a dummy got into the ambulance and Ben took the pictures. And then Ben added an older picture of Michael's face with Photoshop because that was going to be another clue for the hoax.
And on the 25th, there was an ambulance at the house once again. Ben was there too and he made it look like he was taking the pictures because he was going to tell later that he took the ambulance pictures. The paramedics bringing someone or something on a stretcher into the ambulance made it look real for the ones who do not know about the hoax (the fans, people outside the house etc)
Ok, for now these are what I wanted to share. I'll be adding some more as soon as I clear my mind. There're thousands of thoughts right now flirting with each other and my poor brain doesn't know on which one to concentrate. geek/
And finally, thank you so much TS. I knew you were going to make it today. bearhug
Post by: GodhaschosenMJ on November 11, 2011, 05:29:33 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 05:31:22 PM
My problem is they testified in court and they seemed real and not lying, well I can not prove they weren't acting/lying, as well as you can not prove the opposite.
How can they all be in?
Post by: PureLove on November 11, 2011, 05:34:52 PM
OK bec, nobody died, but in this case they ALL have to be in, from the paramedics to UCLA doctors and coroner.
My problem is they testified in court and they seemed real and not lying, well I can not prove they weren't acting/lying, as well as you can not prove the opposite.
How can they all be in?
Gina, did you read my post? Maybe it's better for us to read every each of the posts that is made on this thread as TS asked from us to do also.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 05:51:47 PM
OK bec, nobody died, but in this case they ALL have to be in, from the paramedics to UCLA doctors and coroner.
My problem is they testified in court and they seemed real and not lying, well I can not prove they weren't acting/lying, as well as you can not prove the opposite.
How can they all be in?
Gina, did you read my post? Maybe it's better for us to read every each of the posts that is made on this thread as TS asked from us to do also.
Yes I read your post PureLove. But I was reading bec's post before I read yours and before any of you made their posts I made a short one on the same subject.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 05:55:13 PM
What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.
Post by: PureLove on November 11, 2011, 06:00:31 PM
But Purelove you are undecided or I don't understand your point? bec is supporting one thing only, that there was no body - and asks us to collectively accept it.
What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.
I wrote about different possibilities Gina. I didn't want to go with only one of them. You can choose the one you like or two. ANY of us can be sure at this point which one is the right. And the answer to your question "How can all the doctors and paramedics be in on the hoax?" is inside the post I made. That's the reason why I asked you to read it. ;)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 11, 2011, 06:04:37 PM
But Purelove you are undecided or I don't understand your point? bec is supporting one thing only, that there was no body - and asks us to collectively accept it.
What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.
I wrote about different possibilities Gina. I didn't want to go with only one of them. You pick one of them or two. ANY of us can be sure at this point which one is the right. And the answer to your question "How can all the doctors and paramedics be in on the hoax?" is inside the post I made. That's the reason why I asked you to read it. ;)
It was more of a rhetorical question, how can they all be in it? But I really wanted to see how Bec is seeing this because she is very determined about the no body scenario.
Post by: PureLove on November 11, 2011, 06:14:03 PM
But Purelove you are undecided or I don't understand your point? bec is supporting one thing only, that there was no body - and asks us to collectively accept it.
What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.
I wrote about different possibilities Gina. I didn't want to go with only one of them. You pick one of them or two. ANY of us can be sure at this point which one is the right. And the answer to your question "How can all the doctors and paramedics be in on the hoax?" is inside the post I made. That's the reason why I asked you to read it. ;)
It was more of a rhetorical question, how can they all be in it? But I really wanted to see how Bec is seeing this because she is very determined about the no body scenario.
We are all speculating here Gina. We're writing down the theories that sounds logical and plausible to us. No one knows the answers except Michael, TS and the ones who are in on the hoax. And I'm not so sure if we are going to learn every detail of this illusion which I doubt highly that we will. But we will go as further as we can and TS is guiding us. I do believe that we should consider all theories instead of focusing only one of them.
And if we come to your question, the FBI involvement explains how all the doctors and paramedics can be in on the hoax but bec doesn't believe the sting operation. So I wonder about her reply as well but probably she will be saying that Michael has friends in high authorities who solved all these problems. I can be wrong tho and she can give another answer.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 11, 2011, 06:37:04 PM
If this is NOT a sting, who is paying for it all? Who paid for the memorial? Who paid all the city workers at it? Who has been paying for everything all these past 2.5 years? Who pays for the trial and the attorneys and judge and witnesses and court and all the "legal" papers, and coroner and doctors? Who paid for the people making that damn documentary?
I believe Michael is rich, but we are talking over 2 years of millions...MILLIONS and millions of dollars. True he's made a lot of money, but I doubt for all of that.
So to me it's backed BY the gov. The legal papers are covered by the gov. The courtroom..judges...all the LIES. Because it's a sting.
Katherine and Rebbie? Well, it will be a movie one day...so acting.
Which, leaves me with, if this isn't a sting, it's simply a movie, whatever reasons, be it to call attention to rotten doctors, pharmacies, or Michael's past trials. OR the media. Whatever. If no sting, then movie. Which means he's paying people to ACT. Yet also, for the entire MEMORIAL!!
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 11, 2011, 06:48:59 PM
Once again I'm going to ask.To answer your terrific question about the funding, could it be possible that Michael put up the money in the beginning pre-6/25/09 and all the money that has been going to the "estate" from various things could be used to fund the hoax post 6/25/09?? Or maybe Michael got the money from one of his friends. The guy's name escapes me right now, but he's some kinda prince or something and there was some kinda "secret agreement" between them or something. I really wish I could remember. Anyways, you brought up an excellent point and my possible solutions are just something to think about. :)
If this is NOT a sting, who is paying for it all? Who paid for the memorial? Who paid all the city workers at it? Who has been paying for everything all these past 2.5 years? Who pays for the trial and the attorneys and judge and witnesses and court and all the "legal" papers, and coroner and doctors? Who paid for the people making that damn documentary?
I believe Michael is rich, but we are talking over 2 years of millions...MILLIONS and millions of dollars. True he's made a lot of money, but I doubt for all of that.
So to me it's backed BY the gov. The legal papers are covered by the gov. The courtroom..judges...all the LIES. Because it's a sting.
Katherine and Rebbie? Well, it will be a movie one day...so acting.
Which, leaves me with, if this isn't a sting, it's simply a movie, whatever reasons, be it to call attention to rotten doctors, pharmacies, or Michael's past trials. OR the media. Whatever. If no sting, then movie. Which means he's paying people to ACT. Yet also, for the entire MEMORIAL!!
Post by: fordtocarr on November 11, 2011, 06:59:30 PM
Once again I'm going to ask.To answer your terrific question about the funding, could it be possible that Michael put up the money in the beginning pre-6/25/09 and all the money that has been going to the "estate" from various things could be used to fund the hoax post 6/25/09?? Or maybe Michael got the money from one of his friends. The guy's name escapes me right now, but he's some kinda prince or something and there was some kinda "secret agreement" between them or something. I really wish I could remember. Anyways, you brought up an excellent point and my possible solutions are just something to think about. :)
If this is NOT a sting, who is paying for it all? Who paid for the memorial? Who paid all the city workers at it? Who has been paying for everything all these past 2.5 years? Who pays for the trial and the attorneys and judge and witnesses and court and all the "legal" papers, and coroner and doctors? Who paid for the people making that damn documentary?
I believe Michael is rich, but we are talking over 2 years of millions...MILLIONS and millions of dollars. True he's made a lot of money, but I doubt for all of that.
So to me it's backed BY the gov. The legal papers are covered by the gov. The courtroom..judges...all the LIES. Because it's a sting.
Katherine and Rebbie? Well, it will be a movie one day...so acting.
Which, leaves me with, if this isn't a sting, it's simply a movie, whatever reasons, be it to call attention to rotten doctors, pharmacies, or Michael's past trials. OR the media. Whatever. If no sting, then movie. Which means he's paying people to ACT. Yet also, for the entire MEMORIAL!!
Well, in the beginning of the hoax, remember, Michael was like $400M in debt!! So I doubt he had the backing for it. And who'd loan HIM money being that far in the hole, esp. if he was backing out of the TII concerts.
Maybe that Prince Fayed is the one to pay for it all. He did erect that statue of Michael everyone had the crap fit over.
Post by: TheMoonIsDancing on November 11, 2011, 07:55:25 PM
I really think Michael has led the public to believe that he had no real friends so that it would be a bit more complicated to debunk a real emergency scenario (enough connections to successfully pull it off). MJ has friends, and most of his true friends snuck right under the press/media/paps radar. Michael is all about science fiction and fantasy, and I really believe he created his own sci-fi movie on the day in question. As bec stated previously, the numerology proves to me undoubtedly that this was indeed planned. There are two options for all of us in this sick world we live in: Victimizer or Victim. I believe Michael found a middle ground somewhere in his life. He is immune to hurtful rumors, he is above malicious innuendoes. He is more than capable of faking his own death. Gina made a good point, none of us were there to witness the game plan play by play, so how can we be so sure of the specifics when we have no grounds? When I need a good laugh, all I have to do is watch 'Leave Me Alone' short film and focus on the plastic MJ double.
There was a double that day, but it was not human.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 11, 2011, 08:37:37 PM
Quotethe simplicity of doing everything as real as possible
SIMPLICITY - what a wonderful word bow/
..................
Too bad I've lost the ability to think is simple terms now /pull hair/ Everything has to be huge/mysterious/complicated :shock:
And I feel so stupid because I am the only one who doesn't know why we have to believe that infamous ambulance photo was staged in advance :'(
Ginafelicia, please just keep an opened mind.. I have been reading your several post, and this is the last one that broke the camel's back.. Please stop whinning, and just put your head together and think.. I know it is hard, it is hard for me too, I am trying hard to find what happened that day, but I do not whine and be negative. I do not want to harp on you, you are an intelligent young woman you can do it girl, you can do anything you put your mind to.. MJ did it, so can we..
Post by: angel on November 11, 2011, 08:44:01 PM
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 11, 2011, 08:45:07 PM
This is my take on the ambulance picture. I think Ben is in on the hoax. He would have to be to know to photoshop MJ in the ambulance. I don't know if anyone has ever asked this before, but when was Farrah Faucett taken to the hospital? She is a celebrity and lived in the same area as MJ did. Ben could have been staking out her residence and caught them on camera with her in the ambulance leaving her home. He then could have had a conversation with MJ about getting the picture of her and MJ could have asked him to play around with the picture and put him in pic instead of Farrah. Which could have explained the difference of reflections on the ambulance picture and the surroundings at Carolwood.Wow,dragon,this theory is exactly what i was thinking.The sick impersonator would explain why all those drugs were in the house.The oxygen chamber,and why no one was in a hurry to call 911.This patient was expected to die anyway,if he was terminally ill with cancer.This could also explain why no one was allowed in Michael's room.I never considered the idea about Farrah,but it makes a lot of sense.You r definitely right about Murrays behavior after the verdict was read,he did not seem to be concerned at all. I also believe that the corner was in on it.
Moving on to level 7b. I still believe that MJ was helping to take care of one of his impersonaters that had fallen ill and needed round the clock care from some kind of doctor. Which could explain why he insisted on Murray being his personal physician. Why would he want a cardiologist, instead of a regular physican to oversee his health? IMO, he needed Murray because he was friends with him and he knew Murray was in financial strain. He also knew that no other doctor would be willing to put their medical license and possible freedom on the line for MJ. Which is why MJ wanted to pay Murray so much money. I do believe that someone did die that day, but it wasnt MJ. It was his impersonator. The reason why I think that is because of what the EMT's said about the person they saw in the bedroom. A sick, frailed, old man, balding. He looked like a cancer patient. MJ was not sick, not frailed, not old looking and certainly not balding. MJ is skinny, but not so skinny that he looks like a cancer patient. Now lets go back to when this all went down. Murray comes down stairs and tells the cook to get Prince and get Paris! The kids new that something was happening but not to their daddy. If it was MJ dying any normal human being would call 911, but they had to wait because MJ needed to get out of the house quickly which is why they waited so long to call 911. This is when the ambulance comes in. Ben is called there to get the pic, but Ben already had a pic of MJ that he had photoshopped from Farrah. Ben is seen snapping the pic but used the photoshop pic instead because it had to be believeable.
So, to summerize. The ambulance pic was taken at an earlier date from Farrah and photoshopped with MJ. There was a person in the ambulance on 6/25, but it was not MJ, it was someone him and Murray was helping to take care of. Murray's behavior in court after reading the verdict just confirms that Michael is alive!
Sorry so long.
Let's not forget that when the emt came they said they saw a frail old man.. Michael didn't look frail neither old. So who was it??
Post by: Suzy7 on November 11, 2011, 08:47:15 PM
Does that not clarify enough?
It is nearly impossible to capture that photo with the clarity it had; if it was taken on June 25. Much like the clear shot of the data info on the screen in the truck, the ambulance photo was created beforehand (and photoshopped), not only for the media; but for the hoax to serve as obvious clues. Knowing where the photo was taken, whether it was Michael or a dummy, is irrelevant in my opinion; because the fact is it was taken *before* June 25!
These facts alone prove Ben is in on it, especially given his statement that he saw the screen data info (through the window), and realized it was Michael in danger, so on spur of the moment managed to get prepared, and capture that great quality photo of Michael? Right.
As for the ambulance being there that day, it obviously was. If it wasn't, what did the media capture on camera leaving the residence and arriving to UCLA? Unless they (media) are all in on it (no), the scenario did play out that day for the media/public as to again; not raise suspicion.
Again, whether it was Michael, a dummy, a double or a corpse; the ambulance would have had to go through the actions for the public as I stated above.
Post by: Andrea on November 11, 2011, 08:58:01 PM
The ambulance photo was taken the “other day” so that they could get the desired photo as it would be near impossible to get the money shot on the fly despite how slow the ambulance backed out of the driveway.
I really like the idea of Michael being there every step of the way on June 25th. Literally right there in front of our eyes the whole time. Maybe he didn’t even leave Los Angeles – if an autopsy report, death certificate, police and ambulance reports, etc can be falsified, then a destination unknown lone flight record can also be faked, especially if there is FBI support in some form. A hoax of this magnitude needs certain people to pull it off but this hoax has it’s own cast and crew, much like a movie. Everyone has their confidentiality-contracted job to do. The ARG aspect absolves them of wrong doing and evolves with the hoax with the world's reactions. Plus it's obvious to those who are paying close attention. Which is wicked awesome for us.
Post by: dragonflylilies on November 11, 2011, 09:02:09 PM
This is my take on the ambulance picture. I think Ben is in on the hoax. He would have to be to know to photoshop MJ in the ambulance. I don't know if anyone has ever asked this before, but when was Farrah Faucett taken to the hospital? She is a celebrity and lived in the same area as MJ did. Ben could have been staking out her residence and caught them on camera with her in the ambulance leaving her home. He then could have had a conversation with MJ about getting the picture of her and MJ could have asked him to play around with the picture and put him in pic instead of Farrah. Which could have explained the difference of reflections on the ambulance picture and the surroundings at Carolwood.Wow,dragon,this theory is exactly what i was thinking.The sick impersonator would explain why all those drugs were in the house.The oxygen chamber,and why no one was in a hurry to call 911.This patient was expected to die anyway,if he was terminally ill with cancer.This could also explain why no one was allowed in Michael's room.I never considered the idea about Farrah,but it makes a lot of sense.You r definitely right about Murrays behavior after the verdict was read,he did not seem to be concerned at all. I also believe that the corner was in on it.
Moving on to level 7b. I still believe that MJ was helping to take care of one of his impersonaters that had fallen ill and needed round the clock care from some kind of doctor. Which could explain why he insisted on Murray being his personal physician. Why would he want a cardiologist, instead of a regular physican to oversee his health? IMO, he needed Murray because he was friends with him and he knew Murray was in financial strain. He also knew that no other doctor would be willing to put their medical license and possible freedom on the line for MJ. Which is why MJ wanted to pay Murray so much money. I do believe that someone did die that day, but it wasnt MJ. It was his impersonator. The reason why I think that is because of what the EMT's said about the person they saw in the bedroom. A sick, frailed, old man, balding. He looked like a cancer patient. MJ was not sick, not frailed, not old looking and certainly not balding. MJ is skinny, but not so skinny that he looks like a cancer patient. Now lets go back to when this all went down. Murray comes down stairs and tells the cook to get Prince and get Paris! The kids new that something was happening but not to their daddy. If it was MJ dying any normal human being would call 911, but they had to wait because MJ needed to get out of the house quickly which is why they waited so long to call 911. This is when the ambulance comes in. Ben is called there to get the pic, but Ben already had a pic of MJ that he had photoshopped from Farrah. Ben is seen snapping the pic but used the photoshop pic instead because it had to be believeable.
So, to summerize. The ambulance pic was taken at an earlier date from Farrah and photoshopped with MJ. There was a person in the ambulance on 6/25, but it was not MJ, it was someone him and Murray was helping to take care of. Murray's behavior in court after reading the verdict just confirms that Michael is alive!
Sorry so long.
Let's not forget that when the emt came they said they saw a frail old man.. Michael didn't look frail neither old. So who was it??
Post by: Suzy7 on November 11, 2011, 09:30:10 PM
And isn't assisted suicide illegal; especially in a home, with a cardiologist?!
The only reason I can think of that the real body would be needed; is to fool the hospital staff. But then, didn't the hospital staff's doctor, Dr. Cooper, pronounce him offically dead at 2:26? That fits in again, with the numerology.
The coroner/toxicologist wouldn't need to be fooled, as he/they would be in on it either way; considering the autopsy report isn't even real, and the toxicology results can easily be fabricated.
Im_convinced, had some good posts in the TIAI Sept. 27 thread, talking about corpses. If a corpse was used, which could be plausible and make things more realistic, it wouldn't change the people who are in the know.
I do want to add that I did find it interesting that the DA spoke of an 'experiment on people using propofol' in court, and anesthesiology students use cadaver's to practice. Thus, making the cadaver theory a possibility.
Post by: paula-c on November 11, 2011, 11:35:32 PM
And all these people where they are?
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/murray11.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3578/3662978575_642da96d10.jpg)
(http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Jackson%20Family%20Arriving%20UCLA%20Medical%20Center%20m8AvzaBwwdfl.jpg)
(http://www.jackopedia.com/wiki/images/1/17/Reporter_and_Crowd_outside_UCLA_-_MJ_Death.jpg)
Post by: bec on November 11, 2011, 11:36:15 PM
But Purelove you are undecided or I don't understand your point? bec is supporting one thing only, that there was no body - and asks us to collectively accept it.
What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.
I wrote about different possibilities Gina. I didn't want to go with only one of them. You pick one of them or two. ANY of us can be sure at this point which one is the right. And the answer to your question "How can all the doctors and paramedics be in on the hoax?" is inside the post I made. That's the reason why I asked you to read it. ;)
It was more of a rhetorical question, how can they all be in it? But I really wanted to see how Bec is seeing this because she is very determined about the no body scenario.
We are all speculating here Gina. We're writing down the theories that sounds logical and plausible to us. No one knows the answers except Michael, TS and the ones who are in on the hoax. And I'm not so sure if we are going to learn every detail of this illusion which I doubt highly that we will. But we will go as further as we can and TS is guiding us. I do believe that we should consider all theories instead of focusing only one of them.
And if we come to your question, the FBI involvement explains how all the doctors and paramedics can be in on the hoax but bec doesn't believe the sting operation. So I wonder about her reply as well but probably she will be saying that Michael has friends in high authorities who solved all these problems. I can be wrong tho and she can give another answer.
Because the no body theory lines up perfectly with the movie theory and I've been very vocal about supporting that theory all along and the last couple of months in particular. I think this entire thing is a theatrical production, it's not real, not a lick of it. What we do is the ARG that accompanies it, and much like the NiN Year Zero ARG, we have been invited to play an Alternate Reality Game. That's what ARG stands for, Alternate Reality. So is the alternate reality that MJ isn't dead? No, that's reality. So what's the alternate?
I believe those voicemail tapes about someone trying to "get him" are theatrics, planted for this exact purpose, years later, this ARG and this side aspect of the hoax. I don't believe his vendetta with Sony was part of his reasons to hoax his death. I don't believe anyone was trying to kill him for his catalog, and I do believe he is too smart to get himself in a situation where he is worth more dead then alive to some little entertainment company. In regards to this, I believe the hoaxers are being hoaxed. All the little hints point in that direction. TS says we are being tested. TS says he will support false theories. Front talks about the cube and says it's all about perspective. All the little innuendos and clues and thinly veiled hints and suggestions of an elusive, evasive, intangible, mysterious "they" out to get MJ with FBI involvement is way too much like the plot of Moonwalker to be brushed off as mere coincidence, especially considering the inclusion of Smooth Criminal in that movie, the short film snippet, and the Murray lyric within.
If this is a movie, suddenly, all of this (ambulance pic, outside Carrolwood, @UCLA, paramedics, doctors, coroner being in on it, false documents, memorial, burial, filming, documentaries) is possible without government involvement and it all makes sense. Actors frequently sign non-disclosure agreements while making a movie and getting approval from govt for filming and action sequences happens all the time. Fake documents are used in movies and it's perfectly legal; they are props. There is no reason why all of these people cannot be actors paid to perform a roll. Additionally, not everyone has to know. That coroner assistant doesn't have to know. Neither does the 911 operator who testified. Nor do minor emergency room workers/doctors/nurses. I've said it forever, the same thing, everyone is on a need to know basis. Some will just be following orders and performing everyday tasks. Same as with court. When it comes to who's paying the tab, in particular @Fordtocarr, why do you believe that MJ was "broke"??? Ask yourself that. Where did you learn that information and that will tell you exactly how accurate it is. In addition, in general, why would anyone expect a director to pay for a film entirely themselves?
I think we should all let go of our preconceived notions about what we think is possible in the course of movie making and realize that we haven't the foggiest of clues as to what is possible if you're Michael Jackson in Hollywood.
Post by: bec on November 11, 2011, 11:54:20 PM
To speak on the "real body" theory, if Michael took in a cancer-stricken patient, you are implying that he was insensitive enough to 'pull the plug' at just the right time to fit the hoax numerology. Lol, how rude. :-<
And isn't assisted suicide illegal; especially in a home, with a cardiologist?!
The only reason I can think of that the real body would be needed; is to fool the hospital staff. But then, didn't the hospital staff's doctor, Dr. Cooper, pronounce him offically dead at 2:26? That fits in again, with the numerology.
Yes, it is illegal in the state of California to assist a suicide. It is legal to remove a feeding tube in California that results in death, but death from removal of feeding tube can take anywhere from 1 to 5 or more days. Not accurate or reliable for hoax purposes. It's also ethically sketchy as you said.
You made a great point that I forgot about Dr. Cooper calling death at 2:26 for hoax purposes. I want to take that and run with it a minute,
The argument that if the FBI is helping MJ, then using a real body would be legal, is negated by virtue. If the FBI were helping MJ then the doctors wouldn't need to be fooled (by a real body), they would do as they were told to "assist homeland security" or whatever byline they were told. If the FBI were assisting MJ, why would there need to be such an elaborate explanation of ER events such as hours of resuscitation efforts including balloon pump? Why not just have the doc attest that MJ came in DOA, they tried for 15 min to restart his heart, failed, he died, done? If the doc was fooled, why did they work for 2 hours???????? That really is just ridiculous, to work on a dead man for 2 hours... he would be decomposing by then. The body would have evacuated the bowels and bladder and rigor would be starting. Think about it. 12:21-2:26=2hrs5min=7, 1+2+2+1+2+2+6=16=7 =HOAX is the purpose of reporting that they worked on him for 2 hours and 5 minutes... it certainly wasn't because it was the truth, and it certainly wasn't because it sounded realistic.
Post by: Adi on November 12, 2011, 12:24:25 AM
Judge Pastor deliberately focussed our attention to the date June 9th 2009 when he read out the Jury Forms during the verdict. Remember the Jury had written the incorrect "death" date as June 9th 2009 and crossed it out with "squiggly lines"and then written June 25th 2009. I think he did this for a VERY good reason......to make sure we remembered that significant date again.
As we know June 9th 2009 was when MJ apparently finished filming the "top secret" Dome Project at Culver studios. ...wasn't it suggested ages ago that Dome project stood for Death of Me :lol: !!!
We know that the scenes for Thriller, Smooth Criminal etc were filmed during the Dome Project. Perhaps as well as these, all the images, footage, photos etc we have seen from his "death" day were actually filmed too, using green screens and sets during this time of the Dome Project and released as needed. I am sure TS talked about this ages ago in another level.
Now how this works in with if an ambulance really went to Carolwood Drive and then to UCLA on June 25th to make the day more "real"and also WHAT/WHO exactly went in the ambulance and how that then ties in with who is in on it and who isn't......well....I have to think more about that whilst ripping up weeds.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 12, 2011, 12:31:31 AM
Post by: Aidan_81 on November 12, 2011, 12:43:24 AM
coroners know for sure.
That's all I know :lol: Oh, and that helicopter body {out of helicopter} was weird.
Maybe they changed "bodies" inside helicopter. Damn I really don't know geek/
Post by: dazv555 on November 12, 2011, 12:51:38 AM
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 01:59:34 AM
I will give it a shot, I may be totally off but I will try. We all heard La Toya saying to watch the Illusionist.. Now in the movie, the illusionist was in love with this woman and he faked her death, he gave her a drug so she seemed clinically dead. When they left to the hidding place the illusionist gave her the antidote to wake her up. Can it be that Michael was in the ambulance clinically dead, he did go to the hospital but in the ambulance they gave him the antidote to wake him up.If you all remember that day there was a fire alarm that was triggered at the hospital, probably he made his escape then and went to the LAX airport which was also closed. The only thing is that Jermaine slip up stated that he was gone way long to the airport..Coincidences NOT. By the way isn't what they did to Elvis too? Gave him a pill so he could have had a heart attack? This is what Elvis doctor stated. I will stop now it is very late and I am exhausted.. The more I think about it the more I am confused.. So I will give it a rest for tonight and I will think of more clues tomorrow. blessings.
I rejected this theory because if they had used a defibrillator on MJ he could have potentially been killed. Massively risky to "play" dead. As it is, reports were that no defibrillator was used which also supports the no body theory. If the paramedics and/or the ucla docs were fooled by a dead body, what earthly reason did they have for not defib'ing the body?
Cuz you know if that really was MJ on that table they would have shocked the crap outta that corpse before throwing in the towel.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 12, 2011, 02:00:40 AM
Quotethe simplicity of doing everything as real as possible
SIMPLICITY - what a wonderful word bow/
..................
Too bad I've lost the ability to think is simple terms now /pull hair/ Everything has to be huge/mysterious/complicated :shock:
And I feel so stupid because I am the only one who doesn't know why we have to believe that infamous ambulance photo was staged in advance :'(
Ginafelicia, please just keep an opened mind.. I have been reading your several post, and this is the last one that broke the camel's back.. Please stop whinning, and just put your head together and think.. I know it is hard, it is hard for me too, I am trying hard to find what happened that day, but I do not whine and be negative. I do not want to harp on you, you are an intelligent young woman you can do it girl, you can do anything you put your mind to.. MJ did it, so can we..
You know I really hate it when people tell me what to do.
If I want to whine I'll whine.
If I want to scream I'll scream.
If I want to be stupid I will be stupid.
Just let me be.
I can't live up to the standards OTHER try to impose me to live up at.
Like Bec said, just let me believe what I want to believe. Just let me go through this hoax in my own way.
I always try to be polite and not respond, but I just can't take it anymore.
When someone has logical arguments I like to listen and learn.
But when I'm just told things like I am a puppet who can be moved around where OTHERS want, like I can't think for myself - it's too much.
And if I want to cry, I'll cry. Officially Mike is missing, this is giving me reasons enough to cry.
End of it.
And for your information I'm keeping a VERY OPEN MIND, I'm sorry you and others can't notice that.
And I don't need OTHERS to tell me what I am or what I am not. Ask my husband :lol:
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 02:04:25 AM
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 03:08:44 AM
[...]Thanks for your great post !! From all of it, this passage ^^ stood out to me, especially the garage thing!! it gave me the idea that if they did it in the garage [the pic] "the other ddddday" :lol: then this would also explain one of the first bizarre things that we couldn't explain in the first place, namely: WHY was the ambulance backing up??? lol Now we know: because maybe it pas parked there in the garage !!! The ambulance didn't come from anywhere! it was there all the time!? Could this be? :shock:
One of the first things, I believe that had to take place before the 'big day' (that would NOT have been necessary if it was a real emergency) was the staged ambulance photo. It's been proven it was staged, so I don't think we need to rehash all that. IMO, this didn't necessarily take place at Carolwood. TS said it could've been taken indoors, which of course is a possibility (i.e. maybe in the garage at Carolwood?).
[...]
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 03:51:51 AM
[...]But WHAT IF the terminal patient didn't died naturally? WHAT IF he wanted an euthanasia and agreed to be euthanized on the date convenient to Michael for the hoax?
The chances of a double dying of a terminal disease in exact accordance with MJs multi-decade numerology hoax plan is a statistical impossibility.
[...]
Then everything else was staged accordingly...
[...]If someone really died the autopsy would be accurate.Do we have the guaranty of what the autopsy really looked like? Especially since there were made about 3 autopsies? And no doctor signed any of them? Just LaToya! :lol:
[...]If someone really died, resuscitation attempts would not continue for 2 hours (12:21 911 call-2:26 pronounced). That's nonsense.Oh no, that's acting. Not nonsense. Do we have the proof that the resuscitation attempts indeed continue for 2 hours? No. We were informed about that and communicated the exact hour. That's all. So we don't know for sure how long really they resuscitated him...
[...]If someone really died, the ambulance pic would not need to be faked and would not look like MJ from 1987ish.Why not? He faked the pic on purpose!
[...]If someone really died, it would not appear that MJ himself sat up on the stretcher entering UCLA,Why not? he could have done it only for the show! ;)
If someone really died, court would have no reason to be faked. [...]Well yes. If a double died, they needed to make it look like Murray was guilty! Because the guilty verdict is there for a purpose too. So the court & trial were faked for that reason.
[...]If someone really died, why is LaToya dressing the corpse? How is Karen putting makeup on it almost 70 days later?That is what they said they did. Do you believe them? lol
Post by: Suzy7 on November 12, 2011, 04:04:48 AM
Bec, everything you said are my thoughts exactly. If a body was used, why was it needed given the people we've mentioned would be in on it. The NEED for a real body doesn't exist in my opinion, which is what TS stated as being the only thing a reasonable theory should be based on; need.
I didn't even address the possibility that someone died that day at the correct time because as you said, it's statistically impossible.
Edit: SimPattyK, read what I wrote about assisted suicide. It's not legal in California.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 04:06:41 AM
[...]1. He just knew! He was famous and rich from the age of 5! The fortune hunters were always after him. He is intuitive! He is God-gifted. He just knows things!
The version that Michael faked his death to save his life is also weird, because we often heard that he planed the hoax decades before
and how could he know decades before that he has to fake his death to save his life ?
[...]
2. He got hints from Elvis who also faked his death! He knew what happened to Elvis all his life because of his celebrity! and that Elvis had also received death threats!
3. He saw what happened to John Lenon and other celebs! he didn't want to wait for that happening to him too!
4. He always wanted to CHANGE the world! He knew what his purpose on the Earth is! He knew he can't change the worldd just like that , with nice songs and humanitarian speeches! he knew he had to make something BIG!! to shock the world in order to get their attention on what he wants to do!
Post by: MJonmind on November 12, 2011, 04:24:10 AM
Quote
Therefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!Front and TS both are really talking about “Frontier”, remember all the pics we posted way back about the old Stardust casino with the big Frontier sign, right where the Trump tower is today?
About the funding for this hoax Back talks finances, and Donald Trump said that MJ and him talked lots about finances. Here’s part of a post of mine way back:
Quote
Just wanted to add that Trump said this and more below about MJ. Finances is just another realm where MJ desired to learn from a master at making money--Donald Trump. For the months MJ lived in Trump Tower, I'm sure he got a lot of good advice. On an aside, we had talked on another thread about Back saying he had lived at the intersection where the old Stardust was. Well I was watching the Bashir interview and when MJ went to his 7 floors in his hotel in Las Vegas, when the camera panned outside you could clearly see --Frontier,Stardust, (and the large pyramid hotel that Paris mentions seeing from the hotel rooftop).
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20204.msg350231#msg350231 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20204.msg350231#msg350231)
errrr :) I want to introduce a new crazy theory of June 25th that nobody has suggested that I know of. I'm not saying I believe it, but I'm just exploring possibilities, even if this one seems impossible. TS and Front have both made some silly hints about who MJ may be and who they are, that maybe were in fact just silly, or maybe not. Please bear with me. (Don't shoot me! bow/ .) How many dozens of pics of MJ and Murray side-by-side haven't we seen for 2+ years in TMZ. Murray in court wearing a pink tie and elsewhere on the beach with a pink shirt -- Pink Panther anyone?
This is going with the MJ = Murray theory.
With this theory I think there WERE doubles or MJ-look-alikes on June 25th who played the role of the MJ who sat up on the stretcher going in to UCLA, the MJ climbing out of the coroner’s van, the MJ climbing into a jet, and the MJ-like guy in the blue shirt inside the gate that we see briefly. These were all intentional decoys/illusion distractions to get the audiences especially hoaxer minds going in another direction (true magician tricks). MJ was in full disguise that whole day – as Dr. Murray getting into the ambulance, then stiding into UCLA, then “spinning” and nervous looking to everyone, striding down the hall as evidence B, or “Exhibit B”, finally exiting the hospital as on the footage. Perhaps ALL other live-looking footage seen on TMZ of CM has been taken even in May (“full out”) or June 9 (mistaken death day), since no fans appear upset at his freedom in public. The CM footage may have been green screened at Culver Studios as part of the Dome Project which would enable changing illusion of height.
In this scenario I’m thinking perhaps there was an MJ-like dummy used in the bedroom with the CPR drama played out (same one as in the amb pic, and autopsy pic) with MJ/Murray speaking in the background while the 911 phone call (not real) was made by Alverez, MJ/CM goes with medics and dummy to UCLA, dummy is dealt with as a real body by staff where family “grieves” and Kathy Hilton rubs its feet (in on hoax), dummy sent to coroner who makes fake AR, dummy stays wherever (?) where eventually LaToya and Karen play dress-up with it as long as they need to. When the body moves in the heli, I believe this dummy can be wired to do this even romote control (videos have been posted showing this capability). Remember early on it was said that when the children saw MJ in the bedroom they thought he was playing dead like he'd done before, so they would have really enjoyed playing this game of MJ dressed as a doctor working on a dummy MJ (which they acted out again later in a youtube video.) Also remember Murray loves Katherine like his own mother, his children as his own, and says he's "The Source" suspicious// :lol: (TS) . There was his letter to his patients which sounded just like the hoax plans, and then there was the Youtube video of Murray thanking his (fans) friends for their support. If anyone wants to add a little more details with this scenario I would be pleased, just to test it much further.
Bec
Quote
If this is a movie, suddenly, all of this (ambulance pic, outside Carrolwood, @UCLA, paramedics, doctors, coroner being in on it, false documents, memorial, burial, filming, documentaries) is possible without government involvement and it all makes sense. Actors frequently sign non-disclosure agreements while making a movie and getting approval from govt for filming and action sequences happens all the time. Fake documents are used in movies and it's perfectly legal; they are props. There is no reason why all of these people cannot be actors paid to perform a roll. Additionally, not everyone has to know. That coroner assistant doesn't have to know. Neither does the 911 operator who testified. Nor do minor emergency room workers/doctors/nurses. I've said it forever, the same thing, everyone is on a need to know basis. Some will just be following orders and performing everyday tasks. Same as with court. When it comes to who's paying the tab, in particular @Fordtocarr,whydo you believe that MJ was "broke"??? Ask yourself that. Where did you learn that information and that will tell you exactly how accurate it is. In addition, in general, why would anyone expect a director to pay for a film entirely themselves?I like this!
Bec
Quote
Cuz you know if that really was MJ on that table they would have shocked the crap outta that corpse before throwing in the towel.
:lol: :lol:
Gina, I like you just the way you are! You always make me smile, just because you’re always just so brutally honest. And I think you’re very smart, because you make some very ‘emperor’s clothes’ (do you know that story?) observations lots of times. It’s hard for hoaxers to see you forever on the fence, but in all honesty you probably represent a lot of others quietly here, but you do it in a lovable way. You’re like the strawman (pretty feminine one) that people can try to knock down/oppose.
Post by: curls on November 12, 2011, 04:26:51 AM
Bec - I agree with all you say (except for the Dr Murray lyric in Smooth Criminal!!)
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 04:41:17 AM
[...] If the FBI were assisting MJ, why would there need to be such an elaborate explanation of ER events such as hours of resuscitation efforts including balloon pump? Why not just have the doc attest that MJ came in DOA, they tried for 15 min to restart his heart, failed, he died, done? If the doc was fooled, why did they work for 2 hours???????? That really is just ridiculous, to work on a dead man for 2 hours... he would be decomposing by then.Why all that?
1. To fool/play with the media, for the show of it! Everything that is spectacular sells better!
OR
2. To make it look surreal and thus leave some questions marks into the hoaxers' minds! give them clues...hope.. that it can't be true!
Post by: curls on November 12, 2011, 04:48:54 AM
"So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009!"
"At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day."
Following that pointer, what do we need to change for the hoax? Only that MJ didn't die - ambulance still came to Carolwood and still went to UCLA on 25th June 2009.
Any 'props' needed, can have been produced anywhere, anytime, in advance, and brought out at the appropriate time.
Am I over-simplifying?
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 04:55:18 AM
[...]Well, in the beginning of the hoax, remember, Michael was like $400M in debt!! [...]You really bought this "donut"?
This a tactic! Look poor, broke, with no friends, just enemies, vulnerable and sick [wheelchair, masked, thin] so that you can achieve the surprise effect! and also make real enemies come out and attack the supposed "vulnerable" person. Many enemies show their true character only when they sense someone is in trouble!
With a "sick and broke" Michael, no one would ever suspect what he's actually up to!!!
If this is NOT a sting, who is paying for it all? Who paid for the memorial? Who paid all the city workers at it? Who has been paying for everything all these past 2.5 years? Who pays for the trial and the attorneys and judge and witnesses and court and all the "legal" papers, and coroner and doctors? Who paid for the people making that damn documentary? [...]1. Why do you think that everyone involved in the hoax waited to be paid for it by Michael?
2. He may have paid people , but not all of them.
3. He has friends, good friends, powerful, rich friends who did it because they love him and/or because they are aware of what this project is all about!! They chose to unit & fight together with Michael!
4. Even if some helped him out of material interest, maybe they were not all paid with money! But with free publicity! For ex., Michael's friend, Ben , the paparazzi who took the ambulance pic: imagine how much money he earns just because he became so popular ever since? imagine how much money he got when selling that pic!
5. Remember Michael broke again all possible selling records ever since he "died"! So here's another 'funding" source for the hoax!
6. Remember all the materials that had been released ever since, starting with the "This is it" DVD, all the memorabilia, the Michael album, etc...etc...
7. Then think abut the fact that this hoax has been planned for years! Not everything was paid for in only this short time of 2+ years! Most of it must have been already prepared and paid for in advance!
etc...
etc...
etc...
Post by: Suzy7 on November 12, 2011, 05:07:21 AM
Post by: Magic_Love_4U on November 12, 2011, 05:29:37 AM
MJ always knew something was going to happen to him, he always said it was conspiracy around him, he knew things, he might have been threatened etc. He might have been drugged while on the rehersals of This is It, when he found out what the symptoms was of propofol poisoning he asked for help from people he knew love him, his family.
Maybe, just maybe, Michael either convinced Murray to help him, or Murray actually was there to help MJ get off Propofol, and when Randy Phillips threatened MJ (to Murray) Murray might have told MJ and they decided to fake his death.
Michael is famous, he has most likely been to hospitals, maybe bribed some people to help him, hired actors, so, the whole 911 call + when the medics came was all an act. MJ might have gone to the airport during this time somehow.
Was there a real dead body... I dont believe so.
MJ might have gone to the authorities/police to get help because he had hard evidence that they would kill him if he didnt preform. Thats might be how they are able to have doctors, judge, attornies etc. And a fake trial, because, Murray aint the one on trial, they want the big guys - AEG Randy Phillips is one of them.
I do believe MJ`s life was in danger, and if he is alive this is how it somewhat went down.
La Toya keeps on sayin that she wont rest until ALL have been brought to justice.
Jermaine says sort of the same thing.
I do not believe this whole thing is a movie or a "hoax", I belive it is serious business and nothing to laugh about.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 05:42:43 AM
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/9989/mjmannequinmontaj003.jpg)
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 05:52:10 AM
[....]YESSSS!!! Totally possible! /bravo/
How many dozens of pics of MJ and Murray side-by-side haven't we seen for 2+ years in TMZ. Murray in court wearing a pink tie and elsewhere on the beach with a pink shirt -- Pink Panther anyone?[/size]
This is going with the MJ = Murray theory.
With this theory I think there WERE doubles or MJ-look-alikes on June 25th who played the role of the MJ who sat up on the stretcher going in to UCLA, the MJ climbing out of the coroner’s van, the MJ climbing into a jet, and the MJ-like guy in the blue shirt inside the gate that we see briefly. These were all intentional decoys/illusion distractions to get the audiences especially hoaxer minds going in another direction (true magician tricks). MJ was in full disguise that whole day – as Dr. Murray getting into the ambulance, then stiding into UCLA, then “spinning” and nervous looking to everyone, striding down the hall as evidence B, or “Exhibit B”, finally exiting the hospital as on the footage. Perhaps ALL other live-looking footage seen on TMZ of CM has been taken even in May (“full out”) or June 9 (mistaken death day), since no fans appear upset at his freedom in public. The CM footage may have been green screened at Culver Studios as part of the Dome Project which would enable changing illusion of height.
In this scenario I’m thinking perhaps there was an MJ-like dummy used in the bedroom with the CPR drama played out (same one as in the amb pic, and autopsy pic) with MJ/Murray speaking in the background while the 911 phone call (not real) was made by Alverez, MJ/CM goes with medics and dummy to UCLA, dummy is dealt with as a real body by staff where family “grieves” and Kathy Hilton rubs its feet (in on hoax), dummy sent to coroner who makes fake AR, dummy stays wherever (?) where eventually LaToya and Karen play dress-up with it as long as they need to. When the body moves in the heli, I believe this dummy can be wired to do this even romote control (videos have been posted showing this capability). Remember early on it was said that when the children saw MJ in the bedroom they thought he was playing dead like he'd done before, so they would have really enjoyed playing this game of MJ dressed as a doctor working on a dummy MJ (which they acted out again later in a youtube video.) Also remember Murray loves Katherine like his own mother, his children as his own, and says he's "The Source" suspicious// :lol: (TS) . There was his letter to his patients which sounded just like the hoax plans, and then there was the Youtube video of Murray thanking his (fans) friends for their support. If anyone wants to add a little more details with this scenario I would be pleased, just to test it much further.
[...]
I was going to write something similar too! Thanks for saving my time and for expressing so well this possible version of the hoax!
Murray is a much too bizarre character !!! All the oddities are well highlighted in the pics below and his voice is alsooooo.... surreal!!! I've always been intrigued by his voice!! It's in total contrast with him, with his body!. his voice much too ...how to put it...too frail, too weak....
Not to talk about those eyes!!! There's something so familiar in Murray's eyes!
[. . . . .]
This is the pic I found about his "vitiligo-hand"?? loll WTF??
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3323/2n0uio8.jpg)
The original pic:
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6214/33d666c283627acf2861df6.jpg)
(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5203/27014115857841765789100.jpg)
This one circulated a lot on facebook at one point...
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1953/39888147901272945210577.jpg)
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/659/tiesmurraymj.jpg)
Then what is also very strange is how Murray and everything that happens to him , literally MIRRORS Michael and everything that happened to him!
(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/1718/murraymjhandcuffs.jpg)
I think the handcuffing-trick ^^ with Murray being handcuffed so abruptly and in such an ostentatious manner while the judge was still speaking [such an unusual & useless "legal" procedure!!] is just another clear-connection to the 2005 trial, a subliminal message to the V for Vendetta! Michael's Vendetta for what they did to him back then! Michael was also uselessly handcuffed!! especially because he surrendered to the authorities by himself!!
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7527/murraumesereau.jpg)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-FkZXB-1yM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/youtube][/center]
ARTICLES:
http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/07/conrad-murray-sack-lunch-jail/#.TrpJJ1ZWqwc
http://www.bittenandbound.com/2011/11/08/dr-conrad-murray-has-been-placed-on-suicide-watch/
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 06:23:33 AM
[...] about assisted suicide. It's not legal in California [...]Who says they necessarily did it in California?
MJ-air must have been very busy around June 25th ... ;)
[...] I do not think Michael would do that.I think we cannot possibly know for sure what Michael would do or not, in order to achieve his greater purpose!
Post by: fordtocarr on November 12, 2011, 07:31:07 AM
It would be insensitive of Michael because of the fans to believe he's dead. He'd never do that!
Now, these past months that's what you think and it's all okay?
I've been trying to prove it must be a sting, because of all the posts on here saying it is, and changing my mind set from
it being just a movie!!
Honestly, I try to think for myself, and I get picked on for it. Now, others say what I thought for myself and it's all fine.
About Michael's finances, I was really just repeating what we've been told. As in every single thing we KNOW about Michael!
ALL we know about him is JUST want he's let us know, and that was ONE.
I never believed that, if you can go back into my 1300 posts, I said, how could he be bankrupt owning that hotel...and who knows how much more?
I always try not to pick just one single reason for this hoax, because I know someone will tear me up for it...occasionally I finally post my thoughts on a decision, and sure enough...NO it can't be right.
I'm not trying to be THE right one, because we know, things you thought were right, and others don't will one day be the very thought
that now is the one to believe.
I appreciate all your work and thoughts Bec...;)
Post by: fordtocarr on November 12, 2011, 07:39:43 AM
Quotethe simplicity of doing everything as real as possible
SIMPLICITY - what a wonderful word bow/
..................
Too bad I've lost the ability to think is simple terms now /pull hair/ Everything has to be huge/mysterious/complicated :shock:
And I feel so stupid because I am the only one who doesn't know why we have to believe that infamous ambulance photo was staged in advance :'(
Ginafelicia, please just keep an opened mind.. I have been reading your several post, and this is the last one that broke the camel's back.. Please stop whinning, and just put your head together and think.. I know it is hard, it is hard for me too, I am trying hard to find what happened that day, but I do not whine and be negative. I do not want to harp on you, you are an intelligent young woman you can do it girl, you can do anything you put your mind to.. MJ did it, so can we..
You know I really hate it when people tell me what to do.
If I want to whine I'll whine.
If I want to scream I'll scream.
If I want to be stupid I will be stupid.
Just let me be.
I can't live up to the standards OTHER try to impose me to live up at.
Like Bec said, just let me believe what I want to believe. Just let me go through this hoax in my own way.
I always try to be polite and not respond, but I just can't take it anymore.
When someone has logical arguments I like to listen and learn.
But when I'm just told things like I am a puppet who can be moved around where OTHERS want, like I can't think for myself - it's too much.
And if I want to cry, I'll cry. Officially Mike is missing, this is giving me reasons enough to cry.
End of it.
And for your information I'm keeping a VERY OPEN MIND, I'm sorry you and others can't notice that.
And I don't need OTHERS to tell me what I am or what I am not. Ask my husband :lol:
Gina....I HEAR YOU!!
I've wanted to post to you awhile... I think you should feel just how you feel. It is our feelings about Michael that brought us here to begin with.
Also, some of us just get our thoughts rejected and shoved about anyhow. You are not alone in this. Most tend to just leave. You and I stay, because of how we feel about Michael.
We are not here to JUST try to be the one to figure this out..but we want to be with others believing that Michael is alive. We want to KNOW and understand, but not necessarily be told WHAT so and so believe is what we should be believing even though it don't make sense to us.
Some of us, in the end, will just believe on pure FAITH. A faith that we have in Michael, and that he's alive.
Keep your faith. Keep believing. You are not alone.♥
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 12, 2011, 08:12:41 AM
Nex, we meet the driver of Starline tours...He also says that he was told MJ was dead already, before the ambulance left...
This is the video....can only post the link
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/showbiz/2011/09/28/michael-jackson-star-maps.cnn
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 12, 2011, 08:27:45 AM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 08:38:08 AM
Here is MY conclusion (love it or hate it I care not) :roll:
All the ambulance theories and explanations are Incomplete.
Why? because they are just theories. You can find any amount of information to "support" or "explain" the theory, but it doesn't make it factual. If it were concrete, there wouldn't be other variables to explain the same thing.
Possible is just that...."possible".
These theories in themselves are a form of mind control.
A body, no body...was it live or taped?, real picture or fake picture, who's in /who's out.....
It makes no difference, it is designed to lead you into a direction to think a certain way, but the details are still based on someone elses presentation/interpretation.
You are your only first hand experience. :geek:
So my answer is......
Post by: Magic_Love_4U on November 12, 2011, 08:39:13 AM
Post by: wishingstar on November 12, 2011, 08:41:52 AM
-Media .....including TV, Radio, Newspapers/magazines, (the traditional stuff)
-Media....including YouTube videos, "fan made" videos, Wiki info, various online magazines like LipStick Alley etc.,(non traditional)
-Props for realism (easy to obtain in Hollywood)
-actors (also easy to obtain in Hollywood)
-a good CG/special effects company (set in motion with the Dome Project as to not raise suspicion perhaps)
One thing I have tried to find out, but am having trouble with is exactly what companies are owned by Michael or a subsidiary of his or someone close to Michael that would help with this:
-Hollywood TV
-TMZ
-NPG
-HLN (CNN) etc.......after the allegations, did Michael set out to create the world's largest set-up? To do that he would need the help of media.....by owning it, literally. I know what the internet says as far as ownership for some of these examples, however, from where I sit, it's all hearsay. Who truly owns something probably takes a little more digging than I can do. So if working backwards, as TS suggests, let's take a look at things starting with who broke the story first:
I first heard about through a text of a friend.....I was not home. Did the story break through a simple series of texts...easily done really. By the time I got home a few minutes later, it was rampant all over the airways. Though I was in shock, and actually didn't watch too much. I know it was covered by every channel. The question remains....who broke the story....I believe it was TMZ (?) a reasonable guess at least. How did they know....police scanner? That brings me to no police presence at the start......another "issue" for me. All TMZ would have to do is place a call to any other media asking if they had heard....the media is now informed. Likely Michael has a hand in TMZ. Who covered the backwards ambulance video....Hollywood TV. The name alone suggests fakery...it's Hollywood, not-real TV. Likely again, Michael as part of that...they have been used extensively. Real ambulance/fire truck....it would appear so. Unless Michael purchased and funded an entire fire station for years, Station 71 really exists. So even if the ambulance wasn't real, they would have seen it on the news and would have spoken out as, "that wasn't us.......". So, real emergency vehicles, yet no police at the start, interesting. I have read you can rent vehicles for movies etc, use as props etc......I suppose that could have played into it. I can't help but think Fire Station 71 has a role in this......do they absolutely exist? From where I sit, yes...they are listed on the LA area websites. Were they paid or rented out as a whole or did Michael agree to but them all new equipment/remodel the fire house....what. If so, why didn't Michael include police vehicles from the start? Even if they didn't show up at the same time as fire truck/ambulance they would have had the time to get there and help back out the ambulance, direct traffic away from the driveway instead of the relaxed security guard....we see no police in the original ambulance video...curious to me. That alone leads me to a staged event, broadcasted by media owned my Michael. The tour bus...again, did he buy that or set up the story as such.....possible. Linda-the-map-lady could all be a fictional character put in place with her backstory. Starline tours...again, Michael could have thought to put that in place...by way of rental or purchase.
Actors could be anyone we have seen thus far....seems there a many Hollywood....go figure he'd choose Hollywood. We have seen on IMDB many folks listed as actors, including Conrad Murray. So that one is settled, actors play some part of this officially. Anyone who helped carry this out on June 25 could technically still be under contract not to say a word and just keep on the role.
Well, that's as far as I can get right now...but wanted to go ahead and post it to get any feedback on what other companies might need to be in on it...UCLA mostly likely. If he's indeed wanting to build a new children's hospital, UCLA could benefit from it and be behind that. Ok.....gotta go for now...thank you for letting me post my thoughts.
Blessings
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 12, 2011, 10:36:01 AM
(i hate those pictures of michael from the trial :cry:)
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 12, 2011, 10:43:47 AM
Just a quick thought I had whilst outside gardening which leads from bec's post above....
Judge Pastor deliberately focussed our attention to the date June 9th 2009 when he read out the Jury Forms during the verdict. Remember the Jury had written the incorrect "death" date as June 9th 2009 and crossed it out with "squiggly lines"and then written June 25th 2009. I think he did this for a VERY good reason......to make sure we remembered that significant date again.
As we know June 9th 2009 was when MJ apparently finished filming the "top secret" Dome Project at Culver studios. ...wasn't it suggested ages ago that Dome project stood for Death of Me :lol: !!!
We know that the scenes for Thriller, Smooth Criminal etc were filmed during the Dome Project. Perhaps as well as these, all the images, footage, photos etc we have seen from his "death" day were actually filmed too, using green screens and sets during this time of the Dome Project and released as needed. I am sure TS talked about this ages ago in another level.
Now how this works in with if an ambulance really went to Carolwood Drive and then to UCLA on June 25th to make the day more "real"and also WHAT/WHO exactly went in the ambulance and how that then ties in with who is in on it and who isn't......well....I have to think more about that whilst ripping up weeds.
I don't want to derail this topic but I found this video regarding June 9, 2009. This video was uploaded on June 25, 2009. Can someone explain how this person got their video up so quickly and with a lot of pictures that we've all discussed as being odd? And the video ends with "I am Justice". Hmmm...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-BZmWdJ9nY&feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]
Quote
Michael Jackson DIED 6/9/09 -Deat NoTe
b00se
I find it interesting that this person uses upper and lower case letters and this was before the "hoax" officially started to the world of beLIEvers.
A couple of thoughts about MJ going in the ambulance to UCLA. The person could have been very much alive and healthy but maybe it was one of MJ's impersonators. They would only be seen from afar. And once inside UCLA they could change into their normal look and nobody would realize?
The ambulance had to go to UCLA just like the helicopter did leave the roof of the hospital that day because other news agencies were filming it. But that doesn't mean the helicopter wasn't also a movie prop.
I have a few thoughts that I'll put down later but wanted to share this video. I think that the judge bringing up 6/9/09 is significant.
Blessings.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 10:44:48 AM
@wishingstar: Great post! Good thinking! mj_dance/
Regarding what you said about the Ambulance/Fire station 71, here's another numerology aspect that is very bizarre:
Remember Felix Bush Breazeale the man who faked his funeral back in 1938? And then a movie was made about his story, released in 2009!?
[those who don't know what I'm talking about, please look into this topic: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php/topic,20289.msg351809.html#msg351809 ]
The distance between the year when Breazeale faked his funeral and the year when Michael faked his death is exactly 71 years! Just another nice "coincidence" ;)
1938+ 1 + 9 + 3 + 8 = 21 ----------)) 21=7+7+7 -----)) 777
71
_____
=2009
And 71 = 7+1 = 8 ---)) again ELVIS number !!! elvis_/
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/7778/ambulance71.jpg)
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 10:56:41 AM
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked. Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.
8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
penguin/
At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Last but not least, here is a real good statement from bec, which she posted in my recent thread about the timing of the 911 call (12:20 or 12:21?). Keep this concept in mind, because it applies to far more than just the 911 call. “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203)}.
Just so we can remember where we are (I forgot too, I'm not above being distracted, trust me, lol).
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 11:13:16 AM
I remember pouring over those videos; the one of HTV on 6/25 and the fan video of the day after, trying to come up with proof that those videos must have been shot many days in between instead of just a day in between. I remember picking apart the vegetation in an attempt to prove this (since trees and shrubs take many days, even months to produce visible growth).
Recall the watersprouts extending up from the bush at the entrance to Carrolwood. They were present on the HTV video but not in the fan video. I was at a loss to explain this and thought this vegetative growth was a sign that we were dealing with an extended period of time between the videos (PROOF: Ambulance @Carrolwood 2 separate days) when TS piped up and pointed out that the fan's video was such quality that the pixilation could not capture such detail. Recall that he mentioned that those who do not have a background in film would be hard pressed to know this fact regarding video quality, so he gave me a break and threw me that bone: FALSE LEAD.
In the course of this exchange and investigation, much like the study of the teeth on O2 guy, I set out to prove one thing, and ended up proving the opposite.
In addition, remember from LaToya's book, the outside of Carrolwood held a constant presence of MJs stalker fans, who stayed all night to watch his window light (insert eye roll). These stalker fans had a habit of STALKING MJ, and would be aware of any ambulance entering or leaving Carrolwood on any other day before 6/25/09, making the possibility of this footage being shot previous extremely unlikely. The risk would be unnecessarily high, and we have been at a constant loss to explain the BENEFIT of filming the ambulance footage prior.
WHY would MJ need to film the ambulance footage ahead of time? I don't know. I can't come up with a purpose for this.
So in conclusion, I'm left having to concede that the ambulance footage was shot live on scene at Carrolwood on 6/25/09. IOW: the ambulance did come to Carrolwood, and did leave Carrolwood, on 6/25/09 sometime between 12:30 and 1pm.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 12, 2011, 11:18:40 AM
@Gina: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=18198.0 have at it.oh give me a break crash/
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 11:20:00 AM
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 11:20:38 AM
So the ambulance that indeed arrived at and then left Carrolwood HAD to go to UCLA, just to keep up appearances. The risk of it not doing so, and being detected by one of these stalker fans would be ridiculously high, and again, for what benefit? The hoax had to continue on location @UCLA that day (6/25/09) in order for the next phase to be completed anyway (family arrival, fan vigil outside, stretcher .gif, helicopter footage, etc).
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 11:25:21 AM
[....]All the vegetation difference that you talked about could be explained by the Dome project film! Michael could have filmed 'the ambulance-scene" in a decor set to look like it had been filmed outside Carolwood on the 25th of June!
So in conclusion, I'm left having to concede that the ambulance footage was shot live on scene at Carrolwood on 6/25/09. IOW: the ambulance did come to Carrolwood, and did leave Carrolwood, on 6/25/09 sometime between 12:30 and 1pm.
It's possible that they filmed everything "in-doors", far away from the fans-stalkers' eyes, inside the Dome?
Michael Jackson Wrapped 'Dome Project' Before He Died ----)) http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00025360.html
http://mjhoaxlive.blogspot.com/2009/10/mjs-dome-project-culver-studios.html
(http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9053/image3af.jpg)
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 11:27:43 AM
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 11:37:04 AM
Just a few people who could be very well all involved in it!
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 12, 2011, 11:40:01 AM
Two quotes from TS's original post:No I don't think you are over simplifying at all. I think a lot of people are over complicating and bringing up things that have already been debunked in the previous level.
"So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009!"
"At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day."
Following that pointer, what do we need to change for the hoax? Only that MJ didn't die - ambulance still came to Carolwood and still went to UCLA on 25th June 2009.
Any 'props' needed, can have been produced anywhere, anytime, in advance, and brought out at the appropriate time.
Am I over-simplifying?
I try to keep in mind that there is a lot of information on this forum and it can be a lot to process, but sometimes I get frustrated when it seems that we can't make any progress or move forward as a collective because there are some that are going in circles with concepts that have been agreed upon by most or stated by TS (somewhat cryptically) as being debunked. I would like to take this opportunity to request, with love of course, that those who havent read the previous levels go back and read them first. It should help diffuse some of the confusion that seems to be going on.
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 11:56:47 AM
@Bec: Strangely enough there weren't many 'fans" outside Carolwood in the Ambulance film!
Just a few people who could be very well all involved in it!
Indeed. However, that means that the stalker fans and their presence anywhere it has occurred or been documented would need to be a hoax as well. Is that possible? Sure. What's the purpose? I don't know. Does that purpose (benefit) outweigh the elaborate efforts it would require? TBD.
Again, as curls quoted:
Quote
"At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day."
What's the need (purpose/benefit)?
One purpose/benefit would be a closed set.
However we have already determined that the 911 call is fake, and the purpose/benefit of that is to keep it off the police scanners (which works as a public broadcast system for all things roused by police scanners: other cops, paps, public who like to gawk, etc), as well as satisfying the legality aspect. Many purposes for the 911 call to be staged as opposed to real, and it allows for a more or less closed set anyway.
We also have the tour bus, and the tourist's video that parallels the HT video, and shows the same events. If this was filmed on a different day, ALL those people in that bus would have to be actors in on the hoax (or at least in on the production, and when the "news" hit the airwaves, they would have to be in on it else they would be able to attest that these events DID NOT HAPPEN on 6/25/09).
So in order for the ambulance footage to be shot on a different day, the stalker fans would have to be hoaxed, the tour bus occupants would have to be in on it, and the day after fan video would have to match the "day of" video nearly exactly. That's very elaborate as compared to simply keeping the "911 call" off the police scanners by staging it, and allowing the few peeps who happened to be around, to watch the show. It was a good show, and anyone watching it would not instantly KNOW that it was fake.
If the ambulance really did arrive at and then subsequently leave Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and drive to UCLA, it allows the hoax to proceed at a minimum of people in on it, as compared to other possible scenarios.
We are at a loss to offer a possible purpose or benefit to filming on a different day, and all scenarios offered for filming on a different day point to a great deal of more people needing to be in on it, which complicates matters. So in conclusion, it seems that there is no benefit for a different day of filming, and only a great deal of difficulty. This leads me to conclude that the ambulance footage was indeed shot on location on 6/25/09, in live time.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 11:57:32 AM
Video = false (videos can be manipulated)
People = marginal ( first hand accounts can vary & subject to bias )
------------------
Possible Fact Finding:
1) Police blotters (has the LAFD/ BHPD actual activity records for that day been checked)
2) Starlight tours (has anyone spoke to the company or any verified occupants on the tour bus that day)
3) Property (grounds keepers, trash collectors, neighbors... anyone who frequented the area of the property with an unbias opinion)
....there has to be a more concrete way to get information. :?
Information that isn't subject to manipulation or hearsay. :geek:
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 12, 2011, 11:58:41 AM
You know Bec...I said from the beginning that this was all a movie and everyone jumped all over me for it!!
It would be insensitive of Michael because of the fans to believe he's dead. He'd never do that!
Now, these past months that's what you think and it's all okay?
I've been trying to prove it must be a sting, because of all the posts on here saying it is, and changing my mind set from
it being just a movie!!
Honestly, I try to think for myself, and I get picked on for it. Now, others say what I thought for myself and it's all fine.
About Michael's finances, I was really just repeating what we've been told. As in every single thing we KNOW about Michael!
ALL we know about him is JUST want he's let us know, and that was ONE.
I never believed that, if you can go back into my 1300 posts, I said, how could he be bankrupt owning that hotel...and who knows how much more?
I always try not to pick just one single reason for this hoax, because I know someone will tear me up for it...occasionally I finally post my thoughts on a decision, and sure enough...NO it can't be right.
I'm not trying to be THE right one, because we know, things you thought were right, and others don't will one day be the very thought
that now is the one to believe.
I appreciate all your work and thoughts Bec...;)
You put your opinion dear no matter what it is, your opinion maybe as valuable as the next person.. Do what you feel is right.. I know how you feel, people jump on me too. The question is are these people right?? No one is right no one knows what happened unless MJ comes out and tells us himself.. So fordtocarr go girl!!!!
Post by: RK on November 12, 2011, 12:04:39 PM
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 12, 2011, 12:05:38 PM
Ginafelicia, you are absolutely rght you can whine anytime you want and cry anytime you want, I am just trying to help you.. I am sorry if you took it bad. Know if you want to do all of that you can go the the whinning thread, there is a special thread for that. I simply said to try to open your mind in what others are saying, I did not say that your were stupid, and this was never said from me to you. I never, ever say that to another human being.. I am courteous, and kind to people. You are entitled to your own opinion, If I told you to keep an open mind it is because you are going hysterical, just reread your posts. I promise you I will never redirect anything towards you again, I do love everyone in this forum. bless you..Quotethe simplicity of doing everything as real as possible
SIMPLICITY - what a wonderful word bow/
..................
Too bad I've lost the ability to think is simple terms now /pull hair/ Everything has to be huge/mysterious/complicated :shock:
And I feel so stupid because I am the only one who doesn't know why we have to believe that infamous ambulance photo was staged in advance :'(
Ginafelicia, please just keep an opened mind.. I have been reading your several post, and this is the last one that broke the camel's back.. Please stop whinning, and just put your head together and think.. I know it is hard, it is hard for me too, I am trying hard to find what happened that day, but I do not whine and be negative. I do not want to harp on you, you are an intelligent young woman you can do it girl, you can do anything you put your mind to.. MJ did it, so can we..
You know I really hate it when people tell me what to do.
If I want to whine I'll whine.
If I want to scream I'll scream.
If I want to be stupid I will be stupid.
Just let me be.
I can't live up to the standards OTHER try to impose me to live up at.
Like Bec said, just let me believe what I want to believe. Just let me go through this hoax in my own way.
I always try to be polite and not respond, but I just can't take it anymore.
When someone has logical arguments I like to listen and learn.
But when I'm just told things like I am a puppet who can be moved around where OTHERS want, like I can't think for myself - it's too much.
And if I want to cry, I'll cry. Officially Mike is missing, this is giving me reasons enough to cry.
End of it.
And for your information I'm keeping a VERY OPEN MIND, I'm sorry you and others can't notice that.
And I don't need OTHERS to tell me what I am or what I am not. Ask my husband :lol:
Gina....I HEAR YOU!!
I've wanted to post to you awhile... I think you should feel just how you feel. It is our feelings about Michael that brought us here to begin with.
Also, some of us just get our thoughts rejected and shoved about anyhow. You are not alone in this. Most tend to just leave. You and I stay, because of how we feel about Michael.
We are not here to JUST try to be the one to figure this out..but we want to be with others believing that Michael is alive. We want to KNOW and understand, but not necessarily be told WHAT so and so believe is what we should be believing even though it don't make sense to us.
Some of us, in the end, will just believe on pure FAITH. A faith that we have in Michael, and that he's alive.
Keep your faith. Keep believing. You are not alone.♥
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 12:06:50 PM
All I know is what you post. I don't remember what you said months ago, why would you expect me to? There's a lot of information on this forum and people post thousands of things over years. I was shocked that you would support such a rumor, as it seems so transparently false, and you have to admit, that statement in your post that I reference was ambiguous. So please, don't take offence, just clarify, which you did, so back to the topic...
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 12:14:52 PM
When talking of the stalker fans, we would be mostly talking about Samantha and the 'followers' who morphed into TINI. Ever since I watched David Gest's doco, I have been entertaining the idea that these girls could also be employed for hoax purposes. Could it be possible that the followers are a great big fabrication depicting extreme intrusion created especially for the hoax? The end shot of the grieving fans outside UCLA on the 25th just happened to be the stalker/follower fans. Coincidence? TS's picture at the start of this thread shows 3 puzzle pieces out of place.....there are 3 distinct personas displayed by MJ in TII. We also have This is it , This Is Also It , and This Is Not It. I realize I am rambling here. Forgive me. It is 4 in the morning in Australia and I'm so tired. It makes sense to me that everything that could be prepared in advance would be. This would free up going 'live' with the 'death' and make things as simple as possible. I feel pretty sure that some are playing multiple roles in this production as well, and @MJonmind.....I enjoyed your theory so much and if that was the case, well that would just be the bomb. Seems Murray is not so much MJ's personal physician but more of his personal MaJician....well....he did make him disappear.I agree with you ^^ ;)
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 12:20:30 PM
When talking of the stalker fans, we would be mostly talking about Samantha and the 'followers' who morphed into TINI. Ever since I watched David Gest's doco, I have been entertaining the idea that these girls could also be employed for hoax purposes. Could it be possible that the followers are a great big fabrication depicting extreme intrusion created especially for the hoax? The end shot of the grieving fans outside UCLA on the 25th just happened to be the stalker/follower fans. Coincidence? TS's picture at the start of this thread shows 3 puzzle pieces out of place.....there are 3 distinct personas displayed by MJ in TII. We also have This is it , This Is Also It , and This Is Not It. I realize I am rambling here. Forgive me. It is 4 in the morning in Australia and I'm so tired. It makes sense to me that everything that could be prepared in advance would be. This would free up going 'live' with the 'death' and make things as simple as possible. I feel pretty sure that some are playing multiple roles in this production as well, and @MJonmind.....I enjoyed your theory so much and if that was the case, well that would just be the bomb. Seems Murray is not so much MJ's personal physician but more of his personal MaJician....well....he did make him disappear.
Yes, it is possible, but we still have the tour bus full of people who "happened" along... and if it was filmed prior, would require being in on the hoax. So you have to bring into the hoax all the stalker fans AND the tour bus full of people in order to satisfy this theory. Are you ready to do that?
The purpose would be to retain a closed set, when the staged 911 call already allows for a more or less closed set. But why do we need a closed set? The only purpose I see is so that Ben can get close enough to go through the motions of "getting the pic". Otherwise, it's perfectly ok for anyone to witness what occurred. Nothing on that footage gives away that is a hoax to the casual viewer... not even to the active viewer (as proven after 2+years of investigations, that video has been poured over and still we are at a complete loss to PROVE hoax from it). So why not let casual viewers witness those events? Keeping the 911 call and dispatch off the police scanners by staging it would significantly reduce pap presence, which is what we see on the footage, and so long as Ben doesn't have too much competition, he can muscle in there and "get the shot" ...
So we are still at a loss to provide a PURPOSE or BENEFIT to (much less any supporting physical evidence for) filming the ambulance leaving Carrolwood on a day other then 6/25/09. I am concluding that the risks outweigh the still elusive benefit.
So no purpose, no benefit, and no evidence. I think the ambulance leaving Carrolwood filmed on a different day is debunked unless anyone else wants to weigh in.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 12, 2011, 12:23:22 PM
I will give it a shot, I may be totally off but I will try. We all heard La Toya saying to watch the Illusionist.. Now in the movie, the illusionist was in love with this woman and he faked her death, he gave her a drug so she seemed clinically dead. When they left to the hidding place the illusionist gave her the antidote to wake her up. Can it be that Michael was in the ambulance clinically dead, he did go to the hospital but in the ambulance they gave him the antidote to wake him up.If you all remember that day there was a fire alarm that was triggered at the hospital, probably he made his escape then and went to the LAX airport which was also closed. The only thing is that Jermaine slip up stated that he was gone way long to the airport..Coincidences NOT. By the way isn't what they did to Elvis too? Gave him a pill so he could have had a heart attack? This is what Elvis doctor stated. I will stop now it is very late and I am exhausted.. The more I think about it the more I am confused.. So I will give it a rest for tonight and I will think of more clues tomorrow. blessings.
I rejected this theory because if they had used a defibrillator on MJ he could have potentially been killed. Massively risky to "play" dead. As it is, reports were that no defibrillator was used which also supports the no body theory. If the paramedics and/or the ucla docs were fooled by a dead body, what earthly reason did they have for not defib'ing the body?
Cuz you know if that really was MJ on that table they would have shocked the crap outta that corpse before throwing in the towel.
I understand what you are saying bec, how about if Michael's body was in the ambulance, hypothetical speaking he was dead due to death drug , he was revived with the antitode before he went to the hospital but they switched bodies with a sick frail person who looked like Michael, and he left to go to the airport. Example if you remember on june 25/2009 they said that a Shane something was admitted in the hospital. Not Michael.. Unless all the doctors in the hospital that helped Michael were actors. They seemed like it. Especially the Vietnamese doctor.They probably used a defibrillator on someone else not Michael. I will be seeing my doctor friend tonight for supper, I will talk to him about this drug and see what he can tell me about it.. I do not even know the name of this drug, hopefully he will understand me. lol.. Bec I will give you an accuracy of this drug by tomorrow. I appreciate your input. blessings.
Post by: jujubii on November 12, 2011, 01:32:00 PM
---
Okay, guys! My first official post with a major thought on this.
My Mum has never been a believer in the hoax, and probably never will be. Period.
But she DID pose an interesting question to me I brought to a friend of mine who is a sorta on-the-fence beLIEver and it seriously got his brain cranking, and now I want to bring up to all of you:
The famous footage of the ambulance -- who was filming that?
A random passerby?
Paparazzi?
Or someone rolling cameras for Michael?
I mean, how many people knew that Michael Jackson lived there?
And how did they arrive just in time to catch all this, so precisely, so professionally?
Such perfect, unshaky capturing is not that of an amateur.
Note: Bec said it was probably Ben Everstadt's people who were filming, which makes me MEGA suspicious.
You know, Mr. "That day, and the other da-- *oops*"...
Post by: fordtocarr on November 12, 2011, 01:44:07 PM
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 12, 2011, 02:32:31 PM
When talking of the stalker fans, we would be mostly talking about Samantha and the 'followers' who morphed into TINI. Ever since I watched David Gest's doco, I have been entertaining the idea that these girls could also be employed for hoax purposes. Could it be possible that the followers are a great big fabrication depicting extreme intrusion created especially for the hoax? The end shot of the grieving fans outside UCLA on the 25th just happened to be the stalker/follower fans. Coincidence? TS's picture at the start of this thread shows 3 puzzle pieces out of place.....there are 3 distinct personas displayed by MJ in TII. We also have This is it , This Is Also It , and This Is Not It. I realize I am rambling here. Forgive me. It is 4 in the morning in Australia and I'm so tired. It makes sense to me that everything that could be prepared in advance would be. This would free up going 'live' with the 'death' and make things as simple as possible. I feel pretty sure that some are playing multiple roles in this production as well, and @MJonmind.....I enjoyed your theory so much and if that was the case, well that would just be the bomb. Seems Murray is not so much MJ's personal physician but more of his personal MaJician....well....he did make him disappear.
Yes, it is possible, but we still have the tour bus full of people who "happened" along... and if it was filmed prior, would require being in on the hoax. So you have to bring into the hoax all the stalker fans AND the tour bus full of people in order to satisfy this theory. Are you ready to do that?
The purpose would be to retain a closed set, when the staged 911 call already allows for a more or less closed set. But why do we need a closed set? The only purpose I see is so that Ben can get close enough to go through the motions of "getting the pic". Otherwise, it's perfectly ok for anyone to witness what occurred. Nothing on that footage gives away that is a hoax to the casual viewer... not even to the active viewer (as proven after 2+years of investigations, that video has been poured over and still we are at a complete loss to PROVE hoax from it). So why not let casual viewers witness those events? Keeping the 911 call and dispatch off the police scanners by staging it would significantly reduce pap presence, which is what we see on the footage, and so long as Ben doesn't have too much competition, he can muscle in there and "get the shot" ...
So we are still at a loss to provide a PURPOSE or BENEFIT to (much less any supporting physical evidence for) filming the ambulance leaving Carrolwood on a day other then 6/25/09. I am concluding that the risks outweigh the still elusive benefit.
So no purpose, no benefit, and no evidence. I think the ambulance leaving Carrolwood filmed on a different day is debunked unless anyone else wants to weigh in.
If this was filmed prior june 25 /2009 isn't anyone in that tour bus say No we were there at this date, not June 25.. They would speak up.. Unless they were in on it.. I personally think it was not filmed on a different day either. Someone would have said something. Too many people were around..
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 12, 2011, 03:09:39 PM
Agreed! moonwalk_/When talking of the stalker fans, we would be mostly talking about Samantha and the 'followers' who morphed into TINI. Ever since I watched David Gest's doco, I have been entertaining the idea that these girls could also be employed for hoax purposes. Could it be possible that the followers are a great big fabrication depicting extreme intrusion created especially for the hoax? The end shot of the grieving fans outside UCLA on the 25th just happened to be the stalker/follower fans. Coincidence? TS's picture at the start of this thread shows 3 puzzle pieces out of place.....there are 3 distinct personas displayed by MJ in TII. We also have This is it , This Is Also It , and This Is Not It. I realize I am rambling here. Forgive me. It is 4 in the morning in Australia and I'm so tired. It makes sense to me that everything that could be prepared in advance would be. This would free up going 'live' with the 'death' and make things as simple as possible. I feel pretty sure that some are playing multiple roles in this production as well, and @MJonmind.....I enjoyed your theory so much and if that was the case, well that would just be the bomb. Seems Murray is not so much MJ's personal physician but more of his personal MaJician....well....he did make him disappear.
Yes, it is possible, but we still have the tour bus full of people who "happened" along... and if it was filmed prior, would require being in on the hoax. So you have to bring into the hoax all the stalker fans AND the tour bus full of people in order to satisfy this theory. Are you ready to do that?
The purpose would be to retain a closed set, when the staged 911 call already allows for a more or less closed set. But why do we need a closed set? The only purpose I see is so that Ben can get close enough to go through the motions of "getting the pic". Otherwise, it's perfectly ok for anyone to witness what occurred. Nothing on that footage gives away that is a hoax to the casual viewer... not even to the active viewer (as proven after 2+years of investigations, that video has been poured over and still we are at a complete loss to PROVE hoax from it). So why not let casual viewers witness those events? Keeping the 911 call and dispatch off the police scanners by staging it would significantly reduce pap presence, which is what we see on the footage, and so long as Ben doesn't have too much competition, he can muscle in there and "get the shot" ...
So we are still at a loss to provide a PURPOSE or BENEFIT to (much less any supporting physical evidence for) filming the ambulance leaving Carrolwood on a day other then 6/25/09. I am concluding that the risks outweigh the still elusive benefit.
So no purpose, no benefit, and no evidence. I think the ambulance leaving Carrolwood filmed on a different day is debunked unless anyone else wants to weigh in.
If this was filmed prior june 25 /2009 isn't anyone in that tour bus say No we were there at this date, not June 25.. They would speak up.. Unless they were in on it.. I personally think it was not filmed on a different day either. Someone would have said something. Too many people were around..
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 03:10:43 PM
Richard Senneff (Paramedic) - (legitimate EMS or "hired" EMS?)
Martin Blount (Paramedic) - (legitimate EMS or "hired" EMS?)
plus (*according to court testimony; 2-3 firemen who helped to carry the body from the house)
The ambulance and the 911 call go hand & hand.
Can one be real, but the other fake?...
Real 911 call--->real ambulance response
Fake 911 call--->real ambulance response
Real 911 call--->fake ambulance response
Fake 911 call--->fake ambulance response
....what is the evidence to support real or fake?
*photos can be manipulated/video can be manipulated
Post by: MissG on November 12, 2011, 03:26:12 PM
Post by: Jacaranda on November 12, 2011, 03:26:56 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 03:36:03 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/michael-jackson-ambulance-neverland-10974241
*Video/Pictures can be manipulated--->consider the source
Is the ambulance footage real or fake?
Can one be real but the other fake?
If the ambulance picture is fake, why would the ambulance video be real? or vice versa?
if one is a lie, can the other be truth?
Post by: sandythyme on November 12, 2011, 03:48:52 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 12, 2011, 03:54:52 PM
From my point of view there was a 911 call and one ambulance arriving at MJ's home the way it was reported in the media. We have the Hollywood TV video that proves this and they don't seem to be in the hoax so the video must be true.
If we want to stick to the subject of this level maybe we should keep the discussions into the "ambulance" matter.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 03:55:25 PM
This is probably a stupid thing to write, but could the tour bus be on a daily tour schedule and pass by Carolwood drive around the same thyme everyday? So they wouldn't be in on it, it would just be a normal schedule. I have a feeling that Michael planted alot of seeds and mixed the planed hoax with everyday occurances to look real and fall into place and then watched his plans grow. It kind of goes along is simplifying thing for realism. Use everyday life to fit your plot or idea. Sorry if I am way off here. Take care, Love to All
http://www.starlinetours.com/
Post by: monstertooty on November 12, 2011, 04:18:23 PM
Leave it to TS to drop the damn ambulance on us. /pull hair/ Part of me has thought that level seven is nothing more than an attempt to do two things; 1. stall us (believers) until Bamsday by making us chase our tails. That certainly seems to be happening. 2. Take believers down a notch and make us realize that we don't know it all.
What amazes me is that some of us believe some parts of the hoax are real and some are not. One example would be that a fake autopsy report was given but a real autopsy was performed. Seriously, I think it is all fake including the ambulance. Lou said Michael would put a dummy in the ambulance and have the paparazzi chase it....right? If thats the case than Michael owns an ambulance. Maybe he owns two or three. He used it to pull this off. He sure as hell didnt play with real ambulances and have the LAFD come to his house for a little fun.
To say however that "that many people" could not be in it is to underestimate the importance of the why's of the hoax. Suppose Elvis IS part of all this as our forum seems to suggest. If Michael Jackson AND Elvis want something to happen then....well you get the picture....theres the funding.
The ambulance may have already been there. That is likely if you believe it belonged to Michael. As far as I know the camera in the ambulance video didnt start rolling until it started to leave. It was not seen arriving at MJ's nor was it followed to UCLA. Thats the key i think. If everything is planned ahead all it takes to do a quick switcheroo on the appearance of the ambulance is a quick stop and change of a sticker or light or whatever. A quick pitstop changes whatever needs to be changed and gives us believers a clue. Nascar pit crews change four tires, make adjustments to performance and fill with fuel in 15 seconds.
Things have been done in the hoax to seem real but are not after further inspection. If the 911 call, documents, memorial and funeral,seal, court and verdict are all fake then so is the ambulance at carolwood and at ucla. It was there but i was Mikes.
I honestly believe that a childrens hospital has been promised to UCLA and the city of Los Angelas in return for their cooperation with the hoax which has not used any government or public resources. The money Michael referred to in the Murray recording is the proceeds generated by the hoax. I may be way off but this is my stab at it. Love you all.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 12, 2011, 04:24:01 PM
Seriously, I think it is all fake including the ambulance.How can the ambulance be fake?
You think MJ could have used a fake ambulance with the video of it reported all over the news and LAFD had nothing to say about this?
Or you believe they are in the hoax so that's why they don't say anything?
There was also a huge firetruck there, was it Michael's too?
Sometimes I just feel we are going way too far with the speculations.
@all4loveandbelieve don't you see nobody can help me at this point, only the TRUTH would help, this would reaaaaaly help, but you don't know the truth do you?
If you don't, you can not help me. /pull hair/ /pull hair/
Post by: kravie40 on November 12, 2011, 04:24:35 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 12, 2011, 04:31:30 PM
Level 7a
As per TS' post, he is asking us to look at the 'theories' floating around specifically about the ambulance. The ambulance photo is a done deal...there is enough 'reason(s)' to confidently conclude that it's a 'fake' photo. If anyone is still 'iffy' on that, a reread of that level, or TS' 'summary' of that level in his post in this thread, should help.
I think we're dealing with 3 such 'theories' that deal specifically with the ambulance that TS has asked us to debunk (if I've missed any, someone please jump in):
1) there was more than one ambulance used
2) the ambulance went to UCLA on a different day
3) no ambulance showed up at Carolwood on June 25th (and by extension, no ambulance went to UCLA on June 25th)
TS also offered the following:
Quote
There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
All 3 of the above theories, IMO, would only serve to add needless 'risks' and potentially raise suspicions. For the sake of making it look like a 'real' scene...it absolutely makes more 'sense' to have an ambulance arrive at Carolwood AND arrive at UCLA on June 25th. If we can come to some agreement over that, then the other 'theories' don't make as much 'sense' because they are NOT necessary in order to accomplish the goal...i.e. make the world believe that Michael Jackson was rushed from his home to UCLA (and died). Having an ambulance at Carolwood on June 25th that went to UCLA IS the most 'simplest' option....so why would MJ complicate it with unnecessary 'factors' that could potentially derail his 'plan'?
In the 'spirit' of trying to move things forward and based on all the comments so far in this thread, I think the general consensus is that an ambulance DID go to both Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th. IMO, there have been enough 'good' points supporting this theory....and not many backing up any of the 3 'theories' above. So, what do we do next? lol Do we need to take a poll so that there's no 'accusations' of 'groupthink' or 'mind-control'? smiley_spider
:lol:
I think the ones we need to hear more from at this point in 7a are either those that still 'support' something other than the general consensus...or TS himself.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: monstertooty on November 12, 2011, 05:16:23 PM
Who in the world, when presented with the promise of the grandest childrens hospital in the world, wouldnt agree to help Michael with the hoax?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 12, 2011, 05:36:55 PM
@Gina the firetruck IMO is part of the cooperation of LAFD that I spoke of. Mike may own a fire truck for all we know though LOL. Simply put, I think the ambulance was already at the house then the fire truck rolls in and the plan goes into motion. lights, camera, action.
Who in the world, when presented with the promise of the grandest childrens hospital in the world, wouldnt agree to help Michael with the hoax?
Well if LAFD sent a firetruck why not sending the ambulance too? If they cooperated, they did it with everything that was needed.
I don't see the sense of sending the firetruck, knowing it is a hoax, but not sending the ambulance also.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 05:42:18 PM
Believing in the hoax is to believe that "nothings real but all is possible...." -SpeechlessHere's another post I agree with 100% ! Very funny too! /bravo/
Leave it to TS to drop the damn ambulance on us. /pull hair/ Part of me has thought that level seven is nothing more than an attempt to do two things; 1. stall us (believers) until Bamsday by making us chase our tails. That certainly seems to be happening. 2. Take believers down a notch and make us realize that we don't know it all.
What amazes me is that some of us believe some parts of the hoax are real and some are not. One example would be that a fake autopsy report was given but a real autopsy was performed. Seriously, I think it is all fake including the ambulance. Lou said Michael would put a dummy in the ambulance and have the paparazzi chase it....right? If thats the case than Michael owns an ambulance. Maybe he owns two or three. He used it to pull this off. He sure as hell didnt play with real ambulances and have the LAFD come to his house for a little fun.
To say however that "that many people" could not be in it is to underestimate the importance of the why's of the hoax. Suppose Elvis IS part of all this as our forum seems to suggest. If Michael Jackson AND Elvis want something to happen then....well you get the picture....theres the funding.
The ambulance may have already been there. That is likely if you believe it belonged to Michael. As far as I know the camera in the ambulance video didnt start rolling until it started to leave. It was not seen arriving at MJ's nor was it followed to UCLA. Thats the key i think. If everything is planned ahead all it takes to do a quick switcheroo on the appearance of the ambulance is a quick stop and change of a sticker or light or whatever. A quick pitstop changes whatever needs to be changed and gives us believers a clue. Nascar pit crews change four tires, make adjustments to performance and fill with fuel in 15 seconds.
Things have been done in the hoax to seem real but are not after further inspection. If the 911 call, documents, memorial and funeral,seal, court and verdict are all fake then so is the ambulance at carolwood and at ucla. It was there but i was Mikes.
I honestly believe that a childrens hospital has been promised to UCLA and the city of Los Angelas in return for their cooperation with the hoax which has not used any government or public resources. The money Michael referred to in the Murray recording is the proceeds generated by the hoax. I may be way off but this is my stab at it. Love you all.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 12, 2011, 05:48:51 PM
I mean believing in the fact that he FAKED his DEATH is not so much of a speculation, but the fact that the man could have owned an ambulance and a fire engine in order to actually do IT is MUCH MORE of a speculation than that?Seriously, I think it is all fake including the ambulance.How can the ambulance be fake?
There was also a huge firetruck there, was it Michael's too?
Sometimes I just feel we are going way too far with the speculations.
It was hard for me too, at the beginning, but in time this hoax helped me get used to the idea that Michael always gets what he wants. Period.
@Gina the firetruck IMO is part of the cooperation of LAFD that I spoke of. Mike may own a fire truck for all we know though LOL. Simply put, I think the ambulance was already at the house then the fire truck rolls in and the plan goes into motion. lights, camera, action.^^ Exactly!! ;)
Who in the world, when presented with the promise of the grandest childrens hospital in the world, wouldnt agree to help Michael with the hoax?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 12, 2011, 06:05:09 PM
He owned the paramedics too smiley_spider :twisted:?
Post by: monstertooty on November 12, 2011, 06:18:06 PM
Post by: Jennie on November 12, 2011, 06:33:36 PM
Let's start of the beginning....for the general public, that means June 25th. Working backwards as TS suggests, what sort of people/companies would have to be involved for this to appear as a real news story? For now, put aside the reasons...concentrate on the how it was done....what did we see/when:
-Media .....including TV, Radio, Newspapers/magazines, (the traditional stuff)
-Media....including YouTube videos, "fan made" videos, Wiki info, various online magazines like LipStick Alley etc.,(non traditional)
-Props for realism (easy to obtain in Hollywood)
-actors (also easy to obtain in Hollywood)
-a good CG/special effects company (set in motion with the Dome Project as to not raise suspicion perhaps)
One thing I have tried to find out, but am having trouble with is exactly what companies are owned by Michael or a subsidiary of his or someone close to Michael that would help with this:
-Hollywood TV
-TMZ
-NPG
-HLN (CNN) etc.......after the allegations, did Michael set out to create the world's largest set-up? To do that he would need the help of media.....by owning it, literally. I know what the internet says as far as ownership for some of these examples, however, from where I sit, it's all hearsay. Who truly owns something probably takes a little more digging than I can do. So if working backwards, as TS suggests, let's take a look at things starting with who broke the story first:
I like the idea of finding out what Michael owns and has a hand in. It does kinda feel like we are speculating a lot and not much can be factually backed up because often it all depends on how different people interprete different things. Hhhmmmmmm confused/ /scream/
Post by: PureLove on November 12, 2011, 06:48:06 PM
My poor english doesn't allow me to understand what TS is asking us to do and how he is asking us to do. But I know that he would never ask it from us if he thought that we couldn't make it. I'm just lost and confused. I'm reading all of your amazing posts tho. And there're amazing theories. We should keep on digging! (I think lol)
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 06:56:20 PM
This is why I question the video footage, real or fake?:
Who got the "magic" ambulance picture? (EVENSTAD)
Who got the *W911 call info on the Firetruck monitor? (EVENSTAD)
Who got the video footage following the ambulance to UCLA? (EVENSTAD)
The point of using what he owns rather than the equipment or vehicles of LAFD is that Michael would not want to tie up public resources in the event of a genuine emergency. Using his own resources as much as possible makes the hoax more controllable.
So.....
1) 911 call was planned
2) ambulance picture was planned
3) ambulance/firetruck response was_________? :roll:
4) ambulance video to UCLA was________? :roll:
If the ambulance showed up on 6/25 @ Carolwood; was the ambulance on a "legitimate" call or "for hire" call?
Richard Senneff (Paramedic) - (legitimate EMS or "hired" EMS?)
Martin Blount (Paramedic) - (legitimate EMS or "hired" EMS?)
plus (*according to court testimony; 2-3 firemen who helped to carry the body from the house)(legitimate or "hired"?)
The ambulance and the 911 call go hand & hand.
Fake 911 call--->fake ambulance response
*W911....The purpose for having the firetruck parked infront of the house (note: California E911 calls are generally responded to by both Fire and EMS services)
Post by: titania on November 12, 2011, 06:58:44 PM
I want to go back to June 24th when Michael last attended the rehersals. According to Kenny he was really excited about the ILLUSION on the following day. For an Illusion to take place there is usually a double involved. There would have been a double to make The Dirty Diana Illusion work- one minute MJ is in the bed with DD, the next he is on the Cherry picker high above the audience. Well, this was probably a mirror image for the Illusion on a grander scale at 100 Carolwood Drive. Somebody was placed in the ambulance. We thought it was Michael, a double or a dummy. But who was driving the ambulance? Perhaps it was MJ in disguise? Have we payed any attention to the driver or in fact to the paramedics? CM points out in the documentary that MJ loved to escape hidden in a vehicle where there was a huge chance of him being discovered by the fans hanging around his house....
I also recal seeing a scene of the bodyguards shaking hands after the ambulance drove away from Carolwood Drive- almost as if to say "We pulled it off". Problem is I cannot reacll where I saw that footage. Perhaps someone else can recall where footage of this incident can be found?
Titania
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 07:19:27 PM
http://lafd.org/public-relations
The Los Angeles Fire Department welcomes those persons interested in collaboration with the department in a variety of areas. Some of the ways in which we collaborate with the public include:
Motion Picture and Television Licensing
Paramedic Certification Ride-Alongs
VIP Ride-Alongs
School Visits & Presentations
Media Events
Civic Activities
City/Official Business
http://lafd.org/charitable-partners
The Los Angeles Fire Department is supported by several non-profit public benefit and foundation organizations. These 501 (c) (3) NPOs provide specific, needed support to the Los Angeles Fire Department. The services they provide fall outside of the scope of the department and/or the City of Los Angeles' operational budget.
Both organizations have been fully vetted and operate under relevant formal Agreements, including trademark and rights Agreements. We invite you to visit these organizations to learn more about them, and if possible, to support them in their important and valuable missions.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 12, 2011, 07:24:13 PM
There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility? We keep on writing what could be done and how could be done on the 25th but where is the final destination? Can we debunk each other's theories? Do we have enough information to debunk some of the theories? Are we missing something important? There're too many questions in my mind and I'm a little bit confused about where we are going with these discussion topics.
My poor english doesn't allow me to understand what TS is asking us to do and how he is asking us to do. But I know that he would never ask it from us if he thought that we couldn't make it. I'm just lost and confused. I'm reading all of your amazing posts tho. And there're amazing theories. We should keep on digging! (I think lol)
Purelove, you say your poor english, I speak english all the time and I have a hard time understanding lol.. ( figure of speech) do not worry I have read all your posts and your english is amazing and you make alot of sense..
Post by: PureLove on November 12, 2011, 07:26:45 PM
There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility? We keep on writing what could be done and how could be done on the 25th but where is the final destination? Can we debunk each other's theories? Do we have enough information to debunk some of the theories? Are we missing something important? There're too many questions in my mind and I'm a little bit confused about where we are going with these discussion topics.
My poor english doesn't allow me to understand what TS is asking us to do and how he is asking us to do. But I know that he would never ask it from us if he thought that we couldn't make it. I'm just lost and confused. I'm reading all of your amazing posts tho. And there're amazing theories. We should keep on digging! (I think lol)
Purelove, you say your poor english, I speak english all the time and I have a hard time understanding lol.. ( figure of speech) do not worry I have read all your posts and your english is amazing and you make alot of sense..
lolol/
It's good news to hear that I'm not the only one who is having a hard time understanding TS/Front's posts. :mrgreen:
And thank you. bearhug
Post by: fordtocarr on November 12, 2011, 07:39:04 PM
Post by: Jennie on November 12, 2011, 07:40:41 PM
I also recal seeing a scene of the bodyguards shaking hands after the ambulance drove away from Carolwood Drive- almost as if to say "We pulled it off". Problem is I cannot reacll where I saw that footage. Perhaps someone else can recall where footage of this incident can be found?
Titania
We see that in Conrad's docu last night. That is suspicious.
Post by: paula-c on November 12, 2011, 07:47:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44&feature=player_embedded
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
In the video of Ben we see the white car
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zzzmnz.jpg)
SAME video the white car is gone.
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zzzmzz.jpg)
Employees leave
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zzzazzs.jpg)
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zz33zvzaz_2.jpg)
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/appdata/hp/admin/new/h3.png)
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/appdata/hp/admin/new/H1.png)
Post by: Grace on November 12, 2011, 07:49:17 PM
So we are back to 2009 again. Hamster wheel everybody? This is gonna be a long post again I'm afraid. Long two cents. :lol:
I am not saying that I firmly believe in this or that part of the road, however I am still supporter of a combination of all three major theories: hoax + sting + murder (attempt) - but not all of this happening in the same time frame. (Movie is not a theory IMO but a means of execution therefore I take this as being fundamental.)
We have to care about 2 timelines (timeline of events and timeline of event publications - unveiling of how it happened) and about whether the sceneries happened in real life or in film only (existing footage is no proof that an event happened. Footage is only proof that a filming and editing process was executed). Last but not least there's the question whether the sceneries did match with the date of June 25 or whether they happened on "another day".
Timeline of events as scripted:
In a "realistic" optical and "proof" drama, we were provided footage of an ambulance at Carolwood even from two perspectives: Hollywood TV cut and edited video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU)
and the TMZ "tour bus tourist" video:
http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_jtxt04mw (http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_jtxt04mw)
plus the "proof of" photo Ben highlighted (that was probably prepared together with the ambulance photo the other day? Ben was far too close to the ambulance to create the shown image),
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VR-HSc2aM4[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VR-HSc2aM4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VR-HSc2aM4)
an ambulance driving to UCLA (Ben's interview footage, the ride being filmed from inside a dark Cadillac Escalade, at 2:04.)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx4ew1zmIj0)
and of an ambulance allegedly "delivering Michael" to UCLA (X17 online photos)
http://www.x17online.com/celebrities/michael_jackson/michael_jackson_passes_away_at_age_50-06252009.php (http://www.x17online.com/celebrities/michael_jackson/michael_jackson_passes_away_at_age_50-06252009.php).
That was an impressive truck load of images to digest, right?
That's one reason why the information was cut into pieces and published one after another. Too much food at a time does not lead to healthy digestion.
The other reason was keeping the public hooked, repeating the story around the basic anchor of June 25 "sudden death shock" and commencing from that anchor to develop different versions, contradictions, individual perspectives, opinions, beliefs and stories, not to mention third party interviews, falsifications, blatant nonsense etc.
Timeline of publications of footage:
So the story was told in pieces, in many interruptions of the storyline and in retrospect like a good novel should do going back and forth to stay interesting and make curious (correct me pls if I got this timeline wrong):
June 25, 2009 - initial launch of story package basic elements
- ambulance at Carolwood
- crowds in front of UCLA
- statement of Jermaine
- sheriff chopper take-off (filmed by helicopter)
- sheriff chopper landing at coroner (filmed by helicopter and photographed from ground).
Later TMZ came along with the ambulance tourist bus video.
At about the same time those X17-online photos popped up.
Several weeks later, the German RTL garage video was "leaked".
Then we had the Norwegian interview with infamous Ben proving with the photo that he was the "right photo fisher".
And still later we got the ABC interview with Ben showing footage of "the ride" to UCLA.
A while later, we had then found the "bodyguards enjoying having finished their job" unveiling.
Question 1:
Did an ambulance and a firetruck arrive and take off at/from Carolwood on June 25, 2009?
We had witnesses stating that the paramedics of firetruck 71 / ambu 71 had an emergency VIP case on June 25, 2009. We listened to some testimonies in court. We listened to the testimonies of the map lady and the tour bus driver. Does that mean an ambulance was really there that day? Was everything being told true or was it just giving individual perception of something that allegedly happened?
Alternative a:
no ambulance was in an emergency case at Carolwood. Linda and the tour bus driver and all witnesses talking about an ambulance they have seen have actually seen white elephants instead and are talking paid circus. This is not very likely. You can only produce a million opinions on what happened if something happened so people can build their opinion on something. Hitchcock / Agatha Christie basic principle of drama.
But ok, let's go for "no ambulance at Carolwood", everything was staged / filmed elsewhere.
We know well how easy it is to rebuild streets - we are at Hollywood, right? - not even reconstruction of a house was needed, only a gate had to be opened and closed with a court on the inside and a street on the outside . Film studio? Yes, could be possible. Propmen can "remake" even the exact cracks in the concrete of a road. L.A. counties are proud to participate in movies. LAFD did participate in movies, courtrooms are for rent etc. No big deal. There were not many folks that day - so the staff bill would not be expensive.
But so much effort to rebuild a street for a sequence of only 2:29 minutes? Maybe it was important enough as this was the key basic and fundamental sequence to build all other construction upon. This had to be perfect.
Alternative b:
yes, a real ambulance was at Carolwood.
Carolwood was obviously blocked from the north by some white cars as could be seen in the videos (see attachment). In the south, Ben was obviously jamming the road (he took the "proof photo") before the blue car drove in from Sunset. So they could film whatever they wanted without having too many unwelcome cars or folks interfere with the takes. Linda seemed quite (really) upset being on her phone when the tour bus stopped.
There were at least two takes because the shadows differ - see attachments: Hollywood TV movie shows the firetruck in full sunshine, the starbus tourist video shows the firetruck in the shadow. We've discussed that early in 2009. It can be seen also in the "proof" photo that the shadows differ compared to the Hollywood TV video.
The argument that there was only one take of the ambulance backing out and that the ambulance photo had therefore to be prepared in advance is only partially correct IMO. We have footage with different content and a photo prepared in advance. No strict dependency but two separate production steps to be on the safe side.
I took into consideration that the impression of different shadows may be due to different perspectives and standpoints: TMZ video cameraperson being in the shadow, Hollywood TV camerapersons operating in brighter sunlight. Usually the lens will close and will make an image darker and not brighter when being in the sunlight and vice versa. IMO both videos were edited to achieve the contrary effect or both cameras were set to manual lens adjustment which would be unlikely for a tourist's camcorder or mobile cam on the bus.
Question 2:
Was an ambulance on the road and arriving at UCLA?
There is footage of this, too.
Ben's footage showed an ambulance driving down the wrong street to UCLA, filming the caravane from inside a dark Cadillac Escalade of the same type as Michael's fleet. We found a dark Escalade parking in front of the NPG headquarter once, but on June 25 and starting from Carolwood, Ben drove an older blue and white Escalade if my eyes did not trick me - see starbus tourist video. So the ride to UCLA may have been filmed "the other day".
Why would the caravane take the wrong street anyway if they were trying to save a life? They drove crowded Westwood Blvd northbound, however UCLA emergency entrance is located at Charles E Young Drive which is served by Gayley Ave. Instead of going directly to the emergency entrance, the caravane drove across Westwood Plaza and allegedly (not published) turned left into a narrow street at the crossroad of Westwood / Charles E Young where we find UCLA Brain Research Institute and UCLA Police Station (currently a construction site on Google maps).
(http://www.uclahealth.org/images/site/directions/rrucla_vicinity2_lg.jpg)
X17 online showed pictures from the arrival of the ambulance and several footage "splints" of the bodyguards and the family being present at UCLA were published as well. In addition we have Jermaine's press conference at UCLA.
We were given in addition different takes of the heli sequences afterwards at a moment when the media hectically tried to participate of the "cake" and desperately cut together what did not belong together. By then, the avalanche had already taken pace and it was all unstoppable.
Question 3:
Did all the above mentioned footage originate from June 25, 2009?
As to the chopper footage, we can clearly say that the media cut together what they liked and had in their archives no matter from which date. This was not completely one-source-only material.
Question 4:
Did all the chapters of the story actually happen on June 25, 2009 as published?
We cannot say that with absolute certainty as all material was distributed by the media and had multiple second-hand sources - even if we assume that the one and only first-hand source was Ben getting a leg up as to image and film material. It might have been filmed on "another day" and distributed on June 25.
Question 5:
If we cannot answer question 4 with certainty, would it at least make sense that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25?
Question 6:
This brings us to the question why would there be any need for an ambulance at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25. Strange question? No. We as spectators were looking from the outside and were shocked by the unexpected. Maybe it is helpful to put ourselves into director's shoes and look from the inside, soberly, being CEO and COO in personal union.
A CEO will only spend $$$ on furniture if the COO convinces him that the expenses are required to achieve the given objectives and goals, will support the envisaged strategies and provide data for the measurements of desired achievements.
Potential objectives of executing a death hoax could be (we discussed most of them):
- disappear (illusion)
- escape
- help myself
- help another
- save the world
- vendetta / justice
- clear my name
- live a John Doe's normal life
- take a sabbatical for the kids / family
- take a sabbatical for the love of my life
- take a sabbatical for myself
- death threat
- sting
- change profession
- change life
- AIR (art is resistance)
- ARG (alternate reality game)
- entertainment in the form of popular edutainment - most effective: make others edutain themselves
- any other personal / important third party / combination of the above motivations, including economical, political, religious, ethical, moral and other reasons.
.....
The overall combination of objectives will lead to a win-win-situation or else they are of no substantial value and effect.
Potential goals of executing a disappearance by "giving a death" at a given location (Carolwood / UCLA) could be (instead of chosing the transcontinental plane crash with no return):
- profit from knowledge about the specific location (and area / region / people / society details)
- draw attention to that specific location / make it a "house of death"
- profit from an attention this specific location already has
- profit from a reputation / status this specific location already has
- profit from features / infrastructure this specific location already has
- get out of the house
- get into the house
- get into the hospital
- get out of the hospital
- concentrate attention to the main entrance / sneak out of the back door
- concentrate attention to the house / take off elsewhere
- have a free chopper ride from the top of UCLA, fly over richer L.A. and do what others usually do to me
- frame them monsters of the past at exactly the same location they framed me
- pretend I am not doing well at a specific location yet I am a bundle of joy at another one - setting the stages
.....
Potential pros / cons of having an ambulance and a firetruck "live" as fundamental elements of the disappearance at Carolwood / UCLA (= strategy):
pros
- make the event believable (as much as feasible)
- make the event plausible (logically fitting / credibility)
- make the event dramatically as important as can be (creating emotional high waves)
- create so much drama that the origin is almost forgotten (make a fly an elephant)
.....
cons
- potential of questioning / leakage as additional characters need additional coordination
- issue with the body
- issue with the ambulance photo
- issue outbalancing protection (e.g. tinted windows) vs. giving enough information.
.....
Potential data for measurements of project achievements:
- percentage of believers (believing in death) after 0, 1, 7, 30 days - development over the course of time
- percentage of additional turnover / sales (of memorabilia / music / videos) after 0, 1, 7, 30 days - development over the course of time
- number of articles published by the media in 0, 1, 7, 30 days
- number of hoax videos on youtube in a week
- number of days being able to relax in a palm tree's shadow
- number of times I laughed with the kids in a day
- duration of twitter crash
- percentage of good comments vs. bad comments about my life
- number of articles supporting the not-guilty verdict of 2005
....
Question 7:
Would we need the firetruck and the ambulance to attract the media (in case we wanted to nail them)?
Not necessarily.
The paps are there no matter what and the reporters write no matter what they have seen or photographed or filmed or copied and pasted:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVlr8WIxhAE&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVlr8WIxhAE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVlr8WIxhAE&feature=related)
The firetruck and the ambulance probably have been there at Carolwood resp. UCLA "in real" but NOT for the media (first source was limited to Ben resp. TMZ anyway) but for the general public.
The appearance of the vehicles had vital importance for creating the first credibility, plausibility, belief of death and thus the emotional distress and status of shock. In addition, they are memorable symbols of danger and rescue, the colour red is the colour of life, love and blood (family). We would have missed much if they wouldn't have been integrative part of the set.
This dramatic scenery initialized the following chaos fog of confusion, disbelief, reassurance and coloured opinion sharing that was intended.
Add.:
In order to produce a death hoax, there is NO ambulance required per se.
It is sufficient to spread rumours, e.g. on Christmas 2008:
http://www.clipsyndicate.com/video/playlist/13492/789325?cpt=8&title=truveo_full_feed&wpid=2541 (http://www.clipsyndicate.com/video/playlist/13492/789325?cpt=8&title=truveo_full_feed&wpid=2541)
And these are giving some of the noticable differences of shadows at the pylons and the firetruck that indicate to me that there might have been two or more takes of the ambu video (the tour bus being too far to the left in the Hollywood video in addition):
Post by: monstertooty on November 12, 2011, 08:21:54 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 08:44:28 PM
All events took place on 6/25, all “props“- the fire truck, ambulance, it’s personnel were “leased”
and set up in advance (see my post #154 for explanation). ...although I suspect there was a “test” run before this date. :?
1) W911 call was planned (call time was “pre-arranged” with BHPD/LAFD-so were the “props“)
*chain of events triggered with call to Michael Amir @ 12:18 (the person with all of Michaels contacts)
2) Ambulance picture was planned (*Evenstad/NPG)
*I also personally believe Evenstad/NPG generated the “death” picture and “autopsy” picture.
3) W911 call info captured on the Fire truck monitor was planned (Evenstad/NPG)
*Showed “proof” of date & time of 6/25 12:21 p.m. ( sets numerology )
4) Video footage of ambulance going to UCLA was planned (Evenstad/NPG)
- added bonus, Starline tours bus cruises through the shoot for dramatic effect
as well as to give alternate picture/video coverage (planned)(Evenstad/NPG/TMZ)
which is strategically leaked to other sources.
5) Video/Picture footage of gurney going into Emergency room was planned (Evenstad/NPG)
------by this time, major media outlets are on scene.
okay, (buzz) that's my final answer! (for now) :lol:.
...I'm going to Disneyland, (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/bliss.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)...................whew, I'm tired (http://bestsmileys.com/fainting/1.gif)
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 08:48:26 PM
/bravo/ Grace!!!!! Incredible post!!!!I agree Grace....you get the grand prize for that one! (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/12962/pokal.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Post by: paula-c on November 12, 2011, 08:57:31 PM
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 09:49:33 PM
The cones appear to be placed differently but it's just perspective. You cannot see the third cone in the tourist video shot because it is right next to the curb and the firetruck is blocking the view. (Same with the car in paula-c's screenshots.)
Also, Grace, what is your theory? Would you summarize your information and draw a conclusion from it? I'm curious what you conclude from all of that.
(edited cuz I realized when i reread the italics looked snotty and that's not how I intended it to be read)
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 09:53:23 PM
The point of using what he owns rather than the equiptment or vehicles of LAFD is that Michael would not want to tie up public resources in the event of a genuine emergency. Using his own resources as much as possible makes the hoax more controllable.
It's not unusual nor against the law. Real emergency vehicles are used in the course of movie/TV filming. Not to mention real hospitals. This would not be a problem.
Quote
Jack Webb has been blazing new trails in dramatic programs for more than 20 years. He films "Emergency!" with the full cooperation and assistance of the Los Angeles County Fire Department as well as the County Department of Hospitals.http://www.emergencyfans.com/general_info/show_info.htm
Adding a decidedly realistic touch, authentic fire-fighting equipment has been loaned to the production company. Should any of it be needed in an actual crisis, a "hot line" links fire department headquarters to the sound stage. One ring on that instrument, appropriately painted fire engine red, and film production becomes secondary to the needs of the community.
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 09:58:37 PM
Two takes is HUGELY risky... and for what benefit? The control that you would gain by having 2 takes to get it right is immediately outweighed by having someone witness the 2 takes that isn't supposed to. As soon as it happens, you risk having witnesses. What element would be so necessary that it would be worth the risk of immediate failure through uncontrolled exposure?
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 10:12:48 PM
What I'm gathering from those who support this theory is that the purpose of faking the video (with 2 takes or on a closed set) is control so as to convince the world of a medical emergency at MJ's house without it being detected as being a hoax. I don't support this scenario because the risks outweigh the benefits. I think the point that everyone can agree on is the more people who know, the more risk for potential leaks or slip ups. Someone could squeal and ruin it all, even with non-disclosure agreements. Even though MJ could sue for breaking that agreement, he can never get back a chance like this. The secret is truly priceless.
Post by: jujubii on November 12, 2011, 10:20:15 PM
This is why I question the video footage, real or fake?:
Who got the "magic" ambulance picture? (EVENSTAD)
Who got the *W911 call info on the Firetruck monitor? (EVENSTAD)
Who got the video footage following the ambulance to UCLA? (EVENSTAD)The point of using what he owns rather than the equipment or vehicles of LAFD is that Michael would not want to tie up public resources in the event of a genuine emergency. Using his own resources as much as possible makes the hoax more controllable.
So.....
1) 911 call was planned
2) ambulance picture was planned
3) ambulance/firetruck response was_________? :roll:
4) ambulance video to UCLA was________? :roll:
If the ambulance showed up on 6/25 @ Carolwood; was the ambulance on a "legitimate" call or "for hire" call?
Richard Senneff (Paramedic) - (legitimate EMS or "hired" EMS?)
Martin Blount (Paramedic) - (legitimate EMS or "hired" EMS?)
plus (*according to court testimony; 2-3 firemen who helped to carry the body from the house)(legitimate or "hired"?)
The ambulance and the 911 call go hand & hand.
Fake 911 call--->fake ambulance response
*W911....The purpose for having the firetruck parked infront of the house (note: California E911 calls are generally responded to by both Fire and EMS services)
This is EXACTLY what I was questioning earlier!
OH MY GOD! afraid/
bounce/ Eeee, guys, keep the observations comin'!! This is what I'm talking about, seeing the FACT behind the media fiction!
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 12, 2011, 11:18:49 PM
I do not think this "ambulance drama" was played out more than once. It was a "one take" deal to be sure.
When I speak of "fake", I'm referring to his video edits. Evenstad's scene sequences are very "choppy" and erratic; for example when they are following the SUV's through the city streets to UCLA, then the jump to different scene cuts while sitting at Carolwood etc...It gives the impression it's not one continuous segment (which can be interpreted as being filmed on different days at different times). It appears "pieced together" like the ambulance picture.
Maybe that was the intent, I don't know :?
As for the dress "rehearsal", I'd be willing to bet someone was monitoring when those Starline tours cruised by, and when or how often the "Map Lady" was present. They probably went on a goose chase in the SUV's just to see who in the paps would give pursuit and how well they were able to follow (sans Michael of course).
No doubt a few trips were made to UCLA medical to time how long it would take and what the "lay of the land was". (Though I'm sure Michael already had intimate knowledge since his "Hideout" condo from years ago was within the same vicinity)
Wasn't there an accident with one of the SUV's in a hospital parking lot ot with a hosptial worker or something like that mentioned before the hoax?
Anywho, just wanted to clear that up if anyone wondered what I meant by "fake" :?
Post by: bec on November 12, 2011, 11:49:15 PM
It is possible that the "en-route" footage was filmed earlier or later. It's less then :10 of driving behind an ambulance on the main boulevard so this could be done anytime without rousing suspicion... although it almost certainly necessitates enlisting the services of an emergency vehicle on a second day (it had to be Ambulance 71), so there would have to be a reason why it was decided to film it this way. Those guys really did RUN off to something, presumably vehicles to follow the ambulance, so why not film while they're at it? If they did and something went wrong, and they decided not to use the tape, perhaps that necessitated the use of a second day of filming. But again there would be little risk of rousing suspicion while filming the ambulance just driving down the street. In any case, it still means there was an ambulance 71 that departed Carrolwood on 6/25/09 at ~1:00pm.
Off current topic: @Anyone who supports the 2 ambulances theory, i'm confused as to what the point is? Is Michael ambulancing out the side gate to escape while the paps and the (~10 person) "crowd" focus on the ambulance backing out the front? If so, why's he taking an ambulance? Why wouldn't he just hop in the back of one of his trusted entourage's SUV's and split? Why would you need a second ambulance? An SUV is much less conspicuous then an ambulance if you're trying to not attract attention to yourself. I don't understand what question the 2 ambulance theory is attempting to answer, so anyone who can explain further please do.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 13, 2011, 12:06:37 AM
Snoopy, totally agreed with all the above. I was focusing on the first part of The Scenario, the Ambulance @Carrolwood, which is 2 different one-camera films. The HT video (Ben's) does have an edit in it where the last :03 or so is actually the beginning of the tape for some reason edited into the end, the tourist video is one camera start to finish, no edits, and I was debunking those films being fake (staged on set) or the result of 2 takes.
It is possible that the "en-route" footage was filmed earlier or later. It's less then :10 of driving behind an ambulance on the main boulevard so this could be done anytime without rousing suspicion... although it almost certainly necessitates enlisting the services of an emergency vehicle on a second day (it had to be Ambulance 71), so there would have to be a reason why it was decided to film it this way. Those guys really did RUN off to something, presumably vehicles to follow the ambulance, so why not film while they're at it? If they did and something went wrong, and they decided not to use the tape, perhaps that necessitated the use of a second day of filming. But again there would be little risk of rousing suspicion while filming the ambulance just driving down the street. In any case, it still means there was an ambulance 71 that departed Carrolwood on 6/25/09 at ~1:00pm.
Off current topic: @Anyone who supports the 2 ambulances theory, i'm confused as to what the point is? Is Michael ambulancing out the side gate to escape while the paps and the (~10 person) "crowd" focus on the ambulance backing out the front? If so, why's he taking an ambulance? Why wouldn't he just hop in the back of one of his trusted entourage's SUV's and split? Why would you need a second ambulance? An SUV is much less conspicuous then an ambulance if you're trying to not attract attention to yourself. I don't understand what question the 2 ambulance theory is attempting to answer, so anyone who can explain further please do.
Bec it is the contrary, an SUV would be more consipicuous. Most of the public knows that celebritiy have black SUV. By having another ambulance, and taking another exit, no one on the road would suspect Michael is in that ambulance. As we all know ambulances have the free of way with the sirens on. That ambulance must have brought Michael to the airport as Jermaine stated.( as a slip up).. Very clever from Michael, no one would suspect anything. They would focus on the ambulance that backed up very slowlyyyyyyyyyyy.
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 12:13:40 AM
Or hop in the fire truck after everyone raced off after the ambulance?
Or one of those undercover police and government cars that are souped up Impalas or Mustangs with the stealth (interior) lights on it. They have right of way too and would attract much less attention then a big box ambulance. Every time the gates opened, they risk one of the "extras" witnessing 2 ambulances inside the gate, then everyone would know there were two departures to watch for. It's hard not to notice an ambulance. They are designed to attract attention for high visibility on the roadway. On the other hand, those undercover police and government cars are inconspicuous and still have emergency lights to stop traffic and move as an emergency vehicle on the road. One could easily be parked in the back garage (that has been depicted in pics on the net since the back gate was discovered in 2009), waiting for MJ to hop in and zip off, undercover of massive ambulance backing out the gate distraction.
Why do it the hardest way possible when there's such an easy alternative?
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 12:19:50 AM
Snoopy, totally agreed with all the above. I was focusing on the first part of The Scenario, the Ambulance @Carrolwood, which is 2 different one-camera films. The HT video (Ben's) does have an edit in it where the last :03 or so is actually the beginning of the tape for some reason edited into the end, the tourist video is one camera start to finish, no edits, and I was debunking those films being fake (staged on set) or the result of 2 takes.
It is possible that the "en-route" footage was filmed earlier or later. It's less then :10 of driving behind an ambulance on the main boulevard so this could be done anytime without rousing suspicion... although it almost certainly necessitates enlisting the services of an emergency vehicle on a second day (it had to be Ambulance 71), so there would have to be a reason why it was decided to film it this way. Those guys really did RUN off to something, presumably vehicles to follow the ambulance, so why not film while they're at it? If they did and something went wrong, and they decided not to use the tape, perhaps that necessitated the use of a second day of filming. But again there would be little risk of rousing suspicion while filming the ambulance just driving down the street. In any case, it still means there was an ambulance 71 that departed Carrolwood on 6/25/09 at ~1:00pm.
Off current topic: @Anyone who supports the 2 ambulances theory, i'm confused as to what the point is? Is Michael ambulancing out the side gate to escape while the paps and the (~10 person) "crowd" focus on the ambulance backing out the front? If so, why's he taking an ambulance? Why wouldn't he just hop in the back of one of his trusted entourage's SUV's and split? Why would you need a second ambulance? An SUV is much less conspicuous then an ambulance if you're trying to not attract attention to yourself. I don't understand what question the 2 ambulance theory is attempting to answer, so anyone who can explain further please do.
You know I wondered about this myself at one point. (not sure if maybe this is how others see it) :?
The 2 ambulance scenario was given serious consideration; but for me, in the end the logistics of it became too difficult. :roll:
The reason I thought this might have been possible (again, just speaking for myself here), but when the initial media reports came in, it was said that Michael was being taken to Cedars Sinai. So I thought, what about a "split" ambulance scenario.
Two ambulances in route to two different hospitals. A "shell game" of sorts.
In "theory" to fool the paps into splitting up and choosing which ambulance to follow. But then you had to have identical ambulances, coordinate departure times and then Evenstad would have to follow the one going out the "secret gate", but then how would he get "the magic picture shot" and all that other stuff, so the scenario was just too complicated to work in my mind.
Another multiple ambulance scenario was, what if more than one arrived on scene (it does happen occasionally in the real world) when you get more than one responder, and perhaps the second ambulance would be used as a decoy. But again the logistics....trying to fit a second ambulance through the gate or having it parked on the street as decoration---what would be the point?
The one ambulance theory is just the most feasible.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 13, 2011, 12:22:46 AM
Why not take a police car then?
Or hop in the fire truck after everyone raced off after the ambulance?
Or one of those undercover police and government cars that are souped up Impalas or Mustangs with the stealth (interior) lights on it. They have right of way too and would attract much less attention then a big box ambulance. Every time the gates opened, they risk one of the "extras" witnessing 2 ambulances inside the gate, then everyone would know there were two departures to watch for. It's hard not to notice an ambulance. They are designed to attract attention for high visibility on the roadway. On the other hand, those undercover police and government cars are inconspicuous and still have emergency lights to stop traffic and move as an emergency vehicle on the road. One could easily be parked in the back garage (that has been depicted in pics on the net since the back gate was discovered in 2009), waiting for MJ to hop in and zip off, undercover of massive ambulance backing out the gate distraction.
Why do it the hardest way possible when there's such an easy alternative?
I understand what you are trying to say, you make sense, but those types of police cars do not have tinted windows, anyone could see inside.. Unless they would put Michael in the trunk lol...I guess with the ambulance he is in the back and no one can see inside the ambulance.. More protection.. Is there anything easy in this hoax dear Bec? Nope.. My brains are fried lately.. lol...
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 12:30:06 AM
This question was answered by noticing that the end :03 or so is actually the beginning of the video, somehow and for some reason, edited in at the end instead. It is not 2 ambulances on Ben's video, it is a video edited out of chronological order. Why this was done, I don't think was ever answered. But it may be the reason is for what we are doing right now.
So you have to ask, what's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?
I don't think it's necessary to have 2, even for the escape theory. I also don't think we have any physical evidence to support the presence of 2 ambulances, nor any benefit to having 2.
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 12:35:28 AM
Why not take a police car then?
Or hop in the fire truck after everyone raced off after the ambulance?
Or one of those undercover police and government cars that are souped up Impalas or Mustangs with the stealth (interior) lights on it. They have right of way too and would attract much less attention then a big box ambulance. Every time the gates opened, they risk one of the "extras" witnessing 2 ambulances inside the gate, then everyone would know there were two departures to watch for. It's hard not to notice an ambulance. They are designed to attract attention for high visibility on the roadway. On the other hand, those undercover police and government cars are inconspicuous and still have emergency lights to stop traffic and move as an emergency vehicle on the road. One could easily be parked in the back garage (that has been depicted in pics on the net since the back gate was discovered in 2009), waiting for MJ to hop in and zip off, undercover of massive ambulance backing out the gate distraction.
Why do it the hardest way possible when there's such an easy alternative?
I understand what you are trying to say, you make sense, but those types of police cars do not have tinted windows, anyone could see inside.. Unless they would put Michael in the trunk lol...I guess with the ambulance he is in the back and no one can see inside the ambulance.. More protection.. Is there anything easy in this hoax dear Bec? Nope.. My brains are fried lately.. lol...
????????????????
That type has ALL the windows tinted. I'm thinking the super stealth speed trap cop cars on the freeways in the US. Plain black or blue mustangs or impalas with super window tint that sit and wait in nondescript roadside places and leap out at you when you go 110 down the interstate on your way home at night. They're not uncommon and they're perfect for the job.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 13, 2011, 12:48:19 AM
Besides, there's no need for 2 ambulances. The 2 ambulances theories were not developed to satisfy a hoax requirement, they were developed solely as an explanation for what it appears to show on the video. It appears that at the end of Ben's video, after the cameraman goes running back toward the tour bus, presumably to his parked car, that the picture suddenly smooths out, we see the Fireman placing cones, and the gate closes after we catch a glimpse of an ambulance inside just before the tape cuts. The splice gives it the illusion of 2 takes; as if someone called "cut!" and they were setting up for take 2 when the video ends.
This question was answered by noticing that the end :03 or so is actually the beginning of the video, somehow and for some reason, edited in at the end instead. It is not 2 ambulances on Ben's video, it is a video edited out of chronological order. Why this was done, I don't think was ever answered. But it may be the reason is for what we are doing right now.
So you have to ask, what's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?
I don't think it's necessary to have 2, even for the escape theory. I also don't think we have any physical evidence to support the presence of 2 ambulances, nor any benefit to having 2.
Bec I have asked this question several times. When the ambulance backs up very slowly, when it leaves, inside the gates more into the court yard there was another ambulance.. If we can see the number on that ambulance it will answer our question. I tried to zoom in but couldn't see much. If someone has an application that can see clearly that could answer our puzzled question. I honestly think there could have been 2 ambulances. Anything is possible with Michael.. You said the magic word it gives the illusion. I just resaw the video, when the ambulance left the fire truck was there, then we saw again the ambulance in the court yard, and the tour truck came by and the firetruck was still there. I will see if any of my friends have special applications so we can see the other ambulance. Bec I will rack my brains more tomorrow, right now I cannot think straight.
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 12:48:47 AM
I think this is technically off topic but I have trouble with the decoy escape theory in general. If Michael wanted to flee Carrolwood that day he should have left before 12:21 and everything started. Or, conversely, he would be smartest to wait until the Ambulance left and everyone departed, and the world thought he was at UCLA fighting for his life to leave Carrolwood. What would force him to have to leave Carrolwood simultaneously with the ambulance? Even if he was in fear for his life and running from an organized attempt to murder him, 5 minutes behind the ambulance's departure would have tremendously increased his chances of going undetected so why wouldn't he do that?
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 13, 2011, 12:50:15 AM
Why not take a police car then?
Or hop in the fire truck after everyone raced off after the ambulance?
Or one of those undercover police and government cars that are souped up Impalas or Mustangs with the stealth (interior) lights on it. They have right of way too and would attract much less attention then a big box ambulance. Every time the gates opened, they risk one of the "extras" witnessing 2 ambulances inside the gate, then everyone would know there were two departures to watch for. It's hard not to notice an ambulance. They are designed to attract attention for high visibility on the roadway. On the other hand, those undercover police and government cars are inconspicuous and still have emergency lights to stop traffic and move as an emergency vehicle on the road. One could easily be parked in the back garage (that has been depicted in pics on the net since the back gate was discovered in 2009), waiting for MJ to hop in and zip off, undercover of massive ambulance backing out the gate distraction.
Why do it the hardest way possible when there's such an easy alternative?
I understand what you are trying to say, you make sense, but those types of police cars do not have tinted windows, anyone could see inside.. Unless they would put Michael in the trunk lol...I guess with the ambulance he is in the back and no one can see inside the ambulance.. More protection.. Is there anything easy in this hoax dear Bec? Nope.. My brains are fried lately.. lol...
????????????????
That type has ALL the windows tinted. I'm thinking the super stealth speed trap cop cars on the freeways in the US. Plain black or blue mustangs or impalas with super window tint that sit and wait in nondescript roadside places and leap out at you when you go 110 down the interstate on your way home at night. They're not uncommon and they're perfect for the job.
I am not from the US. In Canada those types of cop cars do not have tinted windows.. So I am basing myself in my country
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 12:50:29 AM
Besides, there's no need for 2 ambulances. The 2 ambulances theories were not developed to satisfy a hoax requirement, they were developed solely as an explanation for what it appears to show on the video. It appears that at the end of Ben's video, after the cameraman goes running back toward the tour bus, presumably to his parked car, that the picture suddenly smooths out, we see the Fireman placing cones, and the gate closes after we catch a glimpse of an ambulance inside just before the tape cuts. The splice gives it the illusion of 2 takes; as if someone called "cut!" and they were setting up for take 2 when the video ends.
This question was answered by noticing that the end :03 or so is actually the beginning of the video, somehow and for some reason, edited in at the end instead. It is not 2 ambulances on Ben's video, it is a video edited out of chronological order. Why this was done, I don't think was ever answered. But it may be the reason is for what we are doing right now.
So you have to ask, what's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?
I don't think it's necessary to have 2, even for the escape theory. I also don't think we have any physical evidence to support the presence of 2 ambulances, nor any benefit to having 2.
Bec I have asked this question several times. When the ambulance backs up very slowly, when it leaves, inside the gates more into the court yard there was another ambulance.. If we can see the number on that ambulance it will answer our question. I tried to zoom in but couldn't see much. If someone has an application that can see clearly that could answer our puzzled question. I honestly think there could have been 2 ambulances. Anything is possible with Michael.. You said the magic word it gives the illusion. I just resaw the video, when the ambulance left the fire truck was there, then we saw again the ambulance in the court yard, and the tour truck came by and the firetruck was still there. I will see if any of my friends have special applications so we can see the other ambulance. Bec I will rack my brains more tomorrow, right now I cannot think straight.
That's the beginning of the footage edited into the end All4love.
Ps. yes, anything is possible, but the task at hand is to make sense of it. What's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?
Does the decoy escape theory itself even make sense? Why would MJ need to leave Carrolwood at the same exact time as the other ambulance left and why would he need to leave in an ambulance? A lot of things are possible in this world and in this hoax, but we are trying to figure out the truth in a very linear, organized way by rejecting parallel theories that are unnecessarily complex or risky. I believe this theory to be both of those things.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 13, 2011, 12:58:28 AM
I'm sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on these subjects and I'm just on a roll.
I think this is technically off topic but I have trouble with the decoy escape theory in general. If Michael wanted to flee Carrolwood that day he should have left before 12:21 and everything started. Or, conversely, he would be smartest to wait until the Ambulance left and everyone departed, and the world thought he was at UCLA fighting for his life to leave Carrolwood. What would force him to have to leave Carrolwood simultaneously with the ambulance? Even if he was in fear for his life and running from an organized attempt to murder him, 5 minutes behind the ambulance's departure would have tremendously increased his chances of going undetected so why wouldn't he do that?
I have thought the same as you did.. Don't forget this is Michael we are talking about, he kind of loved living on the edge too. So this could have been a challenge for him to see if he could have gotten away with it. Right now like I said it is just sheer specualtions. Why did Michael faked his death? Why did he fake his death in June 25 and not May 25.. These are all hypothetical questions that is extremely hard to get right now. We can speculate as much as we want, all our ideas combined makes sense. All the theories of other members makes sense too. Michael is an intelligent man who is making us going crazy to find out how he made this illusion.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 13, 2011, 01:00:45 AM
Besides, there's no need for 2 ambulances. The 2 ambulances theories were not developed to satisfy a hoax requirement, they were developed solely as an explanation for what it appears to show on the video. It appears that at the end of Ben's video, after the cameraman goes running back toward the tour bus, presumably to his parked car, that the picture suddenly smooths out, we see the Fireman placing cones, and the gate closes after we catch a glimpse of an ambulance inside just before the tape cuts. The splice gives it the illusion of 2 takes; as if someone called "cut!" and they were setting up for take 2 when the video ends.
This question was answered by noticing that the end :03 or so is actually the beginning of the video, somehow and for some reason, edited in at the end instead. It is not 2 ambulances on Ben's video, it is a video edited out of chronological order. Why this was done, I don't think was ever answered. But it may be the reason is for what we are doing right now.
So you have to ask, what's the purpose of 2 ambulances? Is it necessary to have 2? Is it the best way to satisfy the agenda (or would an undercover govt car a better choice)? Is it beneficial? And so therefore, does it make sense that there are 2 ambulances?
I don't think it's necessary to have 2, even for the escape theory. I also don't think we have any physical evidence to support the presence of 2 ambulances, nor any benefit to having 2.
Bec I have asked this question several times. When the ambulance backs up very slowly, when it leaves, inside the gates more into the court yard there was another ambulance.. If we can see the number on that ambulance it will answer our question. I tried to zoom in but couldn't see much. If someone has an application that can see clearly that could answer our puzzled question. I honestly think there could have been 2 ambulances. Anything is possible with Michael.. You said the magic word it gives the illusion. I just resaw the video, when the ambulance left the fire truck was there, then we saw again the ambulance in the court yard, and the tour truck came by and the firetruck was still there. I will see if any of my friends have special applications so we can see the other ambulance. Bec I will rack my brains more tomorrow, right now I cannot think straight.
That's the beginning of the footage edited into the end All4love.
I saw that. What purpose did they edited this footage into the end? There has to be a purpose. Is it to throw us off track?
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 01:04:55 AM
I'm sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on these subjects and I'm just on a roll.
I think this is technically off topic but I have trouble with the decoy escape theory in general. If Michael wanted to flee Carrolwood that day he should have left before 12:21 and everything started. Or, conversely, he would be smartest to wait until the Ambulance left and everyone departed, and the world thought he was at UCLA fighting for his life to leave Carrolwood. What would force him to have to leave Carrolwood simultaneously with the ambulance? Even if he was in fear for his life and running from an organized attempt to murder him, 5 minutes behind the ambulance's departure would have tremendously increased his chances of going undetected so why wouldn't he do that?
I have thought the same as you did.. Don't forget this is Michael we are talking about, he kind of loved living on the edge too. So this could have been a challenge for him to see if he could have gotten away with it. Right now like I said it is just sheer specualtions. Why did Michael faked his death? Why did he fake his death in June 25 and not May 25.. These are all hypothetical questions that is extremely hard to get right now. We can speculate as much as we want, all our ideas combined makes sense. All the theories of other members makes sense too. Michael is an intelligent man who is making us going crazy to find out how he made this illusion.
That is indeed a sheer speculation. Again, anything is possible, but only a few things are probable and plausible. We were given a very clear directive to complete this level and that's what I'm operating under.
We know why he chose to fake his death on 6/25/09, we covered those numerological reasons many times. TS referenced those reasons again in the OP of this thread. I disagree we are dealing with hypothetical questions. These are very real, tangible questions. All our ideas do not make sense Some clearly make little sense at all and so they are debunked.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 13, 2011, 01:13:04 AM
I'm sorry, I have a lot of thoughts on these subjects and I'm just on a roll.
I think this is technically off topic but I have trouble with the decoy escape theory in general. If Michael wanted to flee Carrolwood that day he should have left before 12:21 and everything started. Or, conversely, he would be smartest to wait until the Ambulance left and everyone departed, and the world thought he was at UCLA fighting for his life to leave Carrolwood. What would force him to have to leave Carrolwood simultaneously with the ambulance? Even if he was in fear for his life and running from an organized attempt to murder him, 5 minutes behind the ambulance's departure would have tremendously increased his chances of going undetected so why wouldn't he do that?
I have thought the same as you did.. Don't forget this is Michael we are talking about, he kind of loved living on the edge too. So this could have been a challenge for him to see if he could have gotten away with it. Right now like I said it is just sheer specualtions. Why did Michael faked his death? Why did he fake his death in June 25 and not May 25.. These are all hypothetical questions that is extremely hard to get right now. We can speculate as much as we want, all our ideas combined makes sense. All the theories of other members makes sense too. Michael is an intelligent man who is making us going crazy to find out how he made this illusion.
That is indeed a sheer speculation. Again, anything is possible, but only a few things are probable and plausible. We were given a very clear directive to complete this level and that's what I'm operating under.
We know why he chose to fake his death on 6/25/09, we covered those numerological reasons many times. TS referenced those reasons again in the OP of this thread. I disagree we are dealing with hypothetical questions. These are very real, tangible questions. All our ideas do not make sense Some clearly make little sense at all and so they are debunked.
You are a smart cookie Bec.. I will have a fresh mind tomorrow it is 2h00 in the morning so I am sleepy. I enjoyed conversing with you tonight and learned alot from you.. Talk to you again tomorrow.. blessings.
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 01:21:14 AM
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 02:07:01 AM
(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/3d-respect-prosterne-3.gif) I join you to congratulate Grace for her magnificent post!/bravo/ Grace!!!!! Incredible post!!!!I agree Grace....you get the grand prize for that one! (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/12962/pokal.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Thank you for detailing it all so perfectly!!
(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/applaudissements-185.gif)
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 02:46:22 AM
- What if Michael escaped disguised as Murray? or He was never at Carolwood on the 25th of June?? maybe he was all the time , waiting, at the airport? or why not watching his own show at a distance, from his safe-secret-place?
- What if there is a Murray-mask, created on computer with all special effects, just like the one from Ghosts-video?
- What if in order to create even more confusion, 2 people used this same mask!
ONE would be very tall and muscular, the sportive type, seen doing jogging on the beach, seen walking in and out of the court, this one could be one of the dancers, for ex. Travis Payne wearing the Murray mask!
And the other ONE , who is seen only sitting, like in giving interviews or acting in the documentary! and yeah this is MICHAEL wearing the same mask!
Could this be possible??
In these 2+ years since this whole circus started, I've got accustomed to think that Michael is really capable of anything!! The more unbelievable/extraordinary/magical/never heard-of/crazy it sounds, "the more-Michael" it is !! because he has never been afraid to explore "new territories", to create the "never before seen".
MICHAEL ~ leading Actor in DISGUISE
~ Disguise-episode no. 8 ~
Michael as . . . Conrad MURRAY ???
Could it be??? :? :shock: albino/ bounce/
(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9099/mjmurray001.jpg)
"The technological 3D secrets of James Cameron's new film Avatar"
http://forum.santabanta.com/showthread.htm?176241-The-technological-secrets-of-James-Cameron-s-new-film-Avatar
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8471/mjmurray002.jpg)
[....]YESSSS!!! Totally possible! /bravo/
How many dozens of pics of MJ and Murray side-by-side haven't we seen for 2+ years in TMZ. Murray in court wearing a pink tie and elsewhere on the beach with a pink shirt -- Pink Panther anyone?[/size]
This is going with the MJ = Murray theory.
With this theory I think there WERE doubles or MJ-look-alikes on June 25th who played the role of the MJ who sat up on the stretcher going in to UCLA, the MJ climbing out of the coroner’s van, the MJ climbing into a jet, and the MJ-like guy in the blue shirt inside the gate that we see briefly. These were all intentional decoys/illusion distractions to get the audiences especially hoaxer minds going in another direction (true magician tricks). MJ was in full disguise that whole day – as Dr. Murray getting into the ambulance, then stiding into UCLA, then “spinning” and nervous looking to everyone, striding down the hall as evidence B, or “Exhibit B”, finally exiting the hospital as on the footage. Perhaps ALL other live-looking footage seen on TMZ of CM has been taken even in May (“full out”) or June 9 (mistaken death day), since no fans appear upset at his freedom in public. The CM footage may have been green screened at Culver Studios as part of the Dome Project which would enable changing illusion of height.
In this scenario I’m thinking perhaps there was an MJ-like dummy used in the bedroom with the CPR drama played out (same one as in the amb pic, and autopsy pic) with MJ/Murray speaking in the background while the 911 phone call (not real) was made by Alverez, MJ/CM goes with medics and dummy to UCLA, dummy is dealt with as a real body by staff where family “grieves” and Kathy Hilton rubs its feet (in on hoax), dummy sent to coroner who makes fake AR, dummy stays wherever (?) where eventually LaToya and Karen play dress-up with it as long as they need to. When the body moves in the heli, I believe this dummy can be wired to do this even romote control (videos have been posted showing this capability). Remember early on it was said that when the children saw MJ in the bedroom they thought he was playing dead like he'd done before, so they would have really enjoyed playing this game of MJ dressed as a doctor working on a dummy MJ (which they acted out again later in a youtube video.) Also remember Murray loves Katherine like his own mother, his children as his own, and says he's "The Source" suspicious// :lol: (TS) . There was his letter to his patients which sounded just like the hoax plans, and then there was the Youtube video of Murray thanking his (fans) friends for their support. If anyone wants to add a little more details with this scenario I would be pleased, just to test it much further.
[...]
I was going to write something similar too! Thanks for saving my time and for expressing so well this possible version of the hoax!
Murray is a much too bizarre character !!! All the oddities are well highlighted in the pics below and his voice is alsooooo.... surreal!!! I've always been intrigued by his voice!! It's in total contrast with him, with his body!. his voice much too ...how to put it...too frail, too weak....
Not to talk about those eyes!!! There's something so familiar in Murray's eyes![. . . . .]
This is the pic I found about his "vitiligo-hand"?? loll WTF??
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3323/2n0uio8.jpg)
The original pic:
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6214/33d666c283627acf2861df6.jpg)
(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5203/27014115857841765789100.jpg)
This one circulated a lot on facebook at one point...
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1953/39888147901272945210577.jpg)
(http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/659/tiesmurraymj.jpg)
Then what is also very strange is how Murray and everything that happens to him , literally MIRRORS Michael and everything that happened to him!
(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/1718/murraymjhandcuffs.jpg)
I think the handcuffing-trick ^^ with Murray being handcuffed so abruptly and in such an ostentatious manner while the judge was still speaking [such an unusual & useless "legal" procedure!!] is just another clear-connection to the 2005 trial, a subliminal message to the V for Vendetta! Michael's Vendetta for what they did to him back then! Michael was also uselessly handcuffed!! especially because he surrendered to the authorities by himself!!
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7527/murraumesereau.jpg)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-FkZXB-1yM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/youtube][/center]
ARTICLES:
http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/07/conrad-murray-sack-lunch-jail/#.TrpJJ1ZWqwc
http://www.bittenandbound.com/2011/11/08/dr-conrad-murray-has-been-placed-on-suicide-watch/
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 04:01:32 AM
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/865/pinke.jpg)
PINK ~ a subtle connection
uniting the 2 hoaxing families ;)
(http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/5088/presleysjacksonspink001.jpg)
PINK ~ a subtle connection
uniting the 2 hoaxing families ;)
(http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/5088/presleysjacksonspink001.jpg)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 13, 2011, 04:40:29 AM
The point of using what he owns rather than the equiptment or vehicles of LAFD is that Michael would not want to tie up public resources in the event of a genuine emergency. Using his own resources as much as possible makes the hoax more controllable.
I see your point.
Yet for the realism of it all, I believe LAFD resources were used.
Another reason for what I believe this is because MJ couldn't fake his death without governmental help.
I don't think the UCLA hospital or the LAFD would decide by themselves to help Michael, without having a higher permission.
Imagine you are a doctor/manager of UCLA - would you take the risk of helping anyone fake his death?
Especially when it's someone so famous like MJ?
OK some might say they were well paid for their help but I believe the payment can't compensate serving jail time for such an illegal action.
Post by: lacta89 on November 13, 2011, 05:10:10 AM
QuoteThis is most likely why the light was on all night in the bedroom
Poor MJ - there was no way he could sleep if the light was on. Conrad should have simply turn off the lights if he wanted Michael to sleep :roll: :roll: :roll:
I've never heard that before!!Of course he wouldn't be able to sleep if the lights were on...And the security tapes were vanished..hmmm....It's crystal clear that the man is dead. YEAH, RIGHT, WHATEVER!! :D lolol/
Post by: MJonmind on November 13, 2011, 05:17:53 AM
Here's video someone way back did morphing MJ's face with Murray's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yESGptNNsJ0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yESGptNNsJ0)
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/MurrayasMJ.jpg)
Murray as doctor and actor info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXuvKWrapCs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXuvKWrapCs)
Like the Jermaine "leaving for the airport" slip-up, so also the Ben slip-up of "the other day" may have been entirely to mislead hoaxers. I think it was RK on another thread that said, “We’ve ALL been had by MJ”, in different ways. On the other hand it seems impossible to have the one and only "death" day running through the entire complex timing, positions and acting of those in on it, all co-ordinated to mesh with not-in-on the hoax people-- all go so incredibly smoothly without any glitches or problems. Potentially so very many things could have easily sabotaged it. God must have been smiling down on them all that day, and at least a legion of angels sent to manage it all. So I'm thinking June 9 could have been a run-through rehearsal of sorts. We don't know for sure exactly when fans were first aware of MJ's move from Las Vegas to this house, or the hotel that Kathy Hilton mentions that MJ was living at where she had last visited him. There was the OV Guide guy bringing the bread and salt that was saying the neighbourhood was upset that the Christmas wreaths were still up on the 100 Carolwood gates, in was it June? Does anyone remember if that was before June 9th?
I don't think the 20+ years planning of the hoax would mean MJ's life was in danger so that he needed to flee that day. I think he stayed involved and very close, as he says he does with all his projects. I also think the whole FBI involvement is a fabrication as well.
Sandythyme
Quote
This is probably a stupid thing to write, but could the tour bus be on a daily tour schedule and pass by Carolwood drive around the same thyme everyday? So they wouldn't be in on it, it would just be a normal schedule. I have a feeling that Michael planted alot of seeds and mixed the planed hoax with everyday occurances to look real and fall into place and then watched his plans grow. It kind of goes along is simplifying thing for realism. Use everyday life to fit your plot or idea. Sorry if I am way off here. Take care, Love to AllSounds like the Mission Impossible series, where they observed the usual and planned accordingly.
Thanks to some thorough step-by-step going through scenarios by Grace, Snoopy71, Bec, and more. It's helpful to once again try to see which explanations fit all known info we have, plus now from the trial. So many that we think are innocent bystanders or workers may look so genuine but in reality be VERY good actors. I realize TS is wanting us to start with 0 people in on it and MJ is dead, then add actors/those in on it, as we need them. Well after that obvious hoax courtcase it seems that that number is bigger than we first suspected when we last thoroughly discussed TS' similar questions/levels.
Monstertooty
Quote
@Gina the firetruck IMO is part of the cooperation of LAFD that I spoke of. Mike may own a fire truck for all we know though LOL. Simply put, I think the ambulance was already at the house then the fire truck rolls in and the plan goes into motion. lights, camera, action.
Who in the world, when presented with the promise of the grandest childrens hospital in the world, wouldnt agree to help Michael with the hoax?
I think this makes good sense. I scratch your back, you scratch mine! MJ always knows how to get what he wants!
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 13, 2011, 06:28:58 AM
Now remember on the ambulance video, you can hear the photographers saying "Ahhh Linda...he'll be alright".
But she claims that she was there the whole time, so when did she get time to get in a car of one of her paparazzi friends at the scene, and go to UCLA hospital....
But she also is a Believer now........she told Twiggy from MJhoaxlive, that there was some suspicious going on's that morning.........
Lets not forget the video of the remaining bodyguards making a punch fist together as if to say "Yes, we pulled it off"
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 13, 2011, 07:12:44 AM
Quote from: ~Souza~
Well TS, I gave it a day or two and I indeed stayed out of trouble hurting my eyes over this picture and the videos. You owe me a pair of glasses and a new brain :lol:
... the reflection of the car doesn't match the car on the scene when you look at the lighting of the sun. The car in the video has no sun reflection in the left (front), while the one in the picture has a lot of sun reflection there. Also the sun reflection on the car in the picture is much more than in the video, where the car is more in the shadow:
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forumpics/carsreflection.jpg)
... So whaddya got? 8-)
Here is your pair of glasses, and they come free with a new brain attached to them! :lol: :shock: :lol:
http://globaleyeglasses.com/glassesmania/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/monkey-with-funny-glasses.jpg (http://globaleyeglasses.com/glassesmania/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/monkey-with-funny-glasses.jpg)
Anyway, the different shadows is another one that is tough to debunk. I could say that the still is a high resolution camera, and the video is much lower resolution; so the spots of sunlight on the hood of the still could be blurred into the shadows on the video. But that doesn't work very well, because there are large sunlit areas on the front of the hood in the video, which have shadow (or shadow with small sunlit spots) on the front of the hood in the still.
I guess I will have to go out on a limb here as well (just like the monitor switch), and say maybe the wind was blowing the trees--and that's why the shadows were different only 5 or 10 seconds after the still photo. :lol:
Do we have a Sherlock Holmes in the house, who can prove whether or not the wind was blowing that afternoon?
Edit: Here is a closer shot of the red car from the video, and the left front wheel area is almost entirely in the shadows--while same left front wheel area in the ambulance photo above (remember it is mirrored; so it looks like the right front, but it's actually the left front) is almost entirely in the sun!
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Ambulance/CarShadow.jpg)
So that's a done deal for me, no need to discuss that any further. I also think we have established that the ambulance was there that day. The stalker fans are a risk indeed, so there had to be an ambulance there that day. That means there is no need to have an ambulance there another day. IF the footage was filmed another day, the only option would be to film it when it was not rented by MJ yet, before the media and stalker fans would be hanging around there daily. That seems like a risk as well, the house could have burned down in 6+ months and in that case they couldn't have used the footage anymore, so they would have to stage it all on June 25th anyway. There is no purpose at all to have 2 ambulances, because Michael didn't have a cardiac arrest and didn't have to be taken to the hospital. If he wanted to get the hell outta there, he could have used a car, or walk out in disguise as one of the employees for that matter, IF he was even there to begin with.
Already going on with 7b since I want to get it out while I still remember what I want to say about it. There is no purpose for a real dead body. If I think about the people that have seen it, then nothing at all or maybe a dummy would do the trick. The paramedics are clearly in on it. Senneff testified that Blount parked the ambulance at the front door, just to the left of the stairs on People's number 7:
(Around 6:20)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=PL4217B4C78F9B667F&v=_44lw6Y_FiQ#![/youtube]
Senneff clearly says that the FRONT of the ambulance was somewhere at the left of the picture. It makes no sense that the back of the ambulance would be even more to the left, since you don't want to travel around the world to finally be able to load the patient into the ambulance. Common sense tells us that the back of the ambulance would be more to the right, where the front door is located and the side door would also be facing the house and therefor easily accessable. That means that the front of the ambulance was pointed towards the gate: 100 North Carolwood Drive (http://maps.google.nl/maps?q=100+north+carolwood+drive+google+maps&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x80c2bc68560c00c3:0xc513d9fe642cb808,100+N+Carolwood+Dr,+Los+Angeles,+CA+90077,+USA&gl=nl&ei=UaO_ToX_KoufOpXcmM4B&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q8gEwAA)
So WHY would Blount back out of the property? He has a dying patient in the back and he thinks it's efficient to turn the ambulance to leave the property backwards? That makes no sense at all. If those paramedics were not in on it, and thought they had a real emergency on their hands, they would not have done that. Even if they were sure the patient was dead and there was no need to hurry, it would still make no sense that they would leave the property backwards.
We know that someone pulled the fire alarm at the hospital and as far as I know, there were only three people in the ER, who they mentioned by name. Cooper worked on a dead body for way too long, while she testified that 'Mr. Jackson was DOA'. Then why wait until 2:26 before pronounce him? Because Murray said so? It's her ER, it's her call. But instead of pronouncing him dead, she beeps Nguyen around 1:13pm (I can be off a few minutes) to assist her. Why? If he's dead, he's dead. You can call 10 other doctors, but dead is dead. I know that and I am not a doctor. IF you would be able to revive the heart, you would be looking at a vegetable. I remember Nguyen had a lot of medical bla bla and she seemed to know her profession, but the only thing that really seem to stick out was what she repeated a few times: 'Time was not on Mr. Jackson's side'. For a woman who uses so many medical words to explain herself, that seemed to be pretty random and vague. The third doctor would be Dr. Cruz, and he didn't testify at all. Not a word from Dr. Cruz. Why not? Why didn't he testify? Maybe he agreed to be involved but didn't want to lie, or maybe he simply is a lousy liar.
The coroner is in on it whatever way you look at it. He is the one person who can't be fooled. Not with a dummy, not with a real body. If you claim that the coroner is not in on it, you automatically say that the AR is not fabricated but based on a real autopsy, which means a healthy person died of acute propofol intoxication. You would also automatically have to believe the body was fresh, because a coroner can't be fooled with a corpse that was in the fridge for weeks, or in deep freeze. I posted my converstaion with a pathologist a few weeks ago. And in that case you actually believe Michael is dead, since the body was identified as being Michael Jackson, remember they also took fingerprints.
The guys in the helicopter that took the body to the coroner don't have to in on it at all, they could have been told that they needed to take a dummy with them and fly with an open door to make sure the predators (media) would stay distracted and that they would bring the real body with a van for safety reasons.
I think there are one or two cops that allegedly saw the body, someone from Forest Lawn (according to La Toya) and Jeffre Phillips, La Toya's friend, who (according to Jermaine's book) stayed at Carolwood drive for two weeks after June 25 to keep an eye and of course the family. That's it. If there is a hoax and a sting, then you need to have at least them in on it. I know less people were involved in Elvis' hoax, but Elvis simply escaped. He didn't plan to come back and he wasn't making a movie. Best scenario would be that only MJ himself would be in on it, but it's simply impossible. What about the people that attended the staged funeral? That funeral was absolutely staged in a movie setting. Did the people that attended simply think that was normal? That were quite some people there. So if you can have Chris Tucker, Elizabeth Taylor, Kenny Ortega, Randy Phillips, Macaulay Culkin, Travis Payne and the TII dancers in on it, and all the others that were there, then how would a few officials and doctors make a difference?
One option is that they used a dummy, so that the paramedics and the doctors could recall something that really happened. But I have a hard time believing that professional paramedics and doctors would really work on a dummy for hours, KNOWING that it's fake. It's really not that much they had to remember, and Senneff and Blount did have contradicting things in their testimony. It makes more sense that they used the time in the house and the ER to go through the last details and instructions. The human mind is very capable to imagine a situation, even to the point that someone starts to actually believe it, as long as it is repeated often enough. But if bec and I (for example) both would get a story we have to visualize and remember, our stories might differ in the end. One of us could have read a certain line differently and therefor our stories might not add up in the end. Could explain why Blount saw Murray hiding bottles while MJ was still in the room, and Senneff saw Murray hiding bottles after they loaded him in the ambulance, and Senneff went back to the room to pick up his stuff (which is another waste of time). If everyone was merely recalling things that they actually saw happen, there would be less contradictions. And the contradictions are no problem, since the sting requires that everyone should be able to figure out that it's a hoax.
Post by: Grace on November 13, 2011, 07:58:19 AM
We still rush into believing what we see without questioning enough.
I am aware of having been tricked many times in this - optically and in mind games. Still I am missing branches in the trees where the cars are parked but I'll put this to rest as yet another optical illusion.
I think the whole set is pretty simple if we keep it minimalistic, too.
No effect desired - no cause / cast required.
This makes it:
- one ambulance at Carolwood arriving upon (planted) emergency call
- a (living) body = Michael with Doc Murray in the ambulance
- Michael arriving with Doc Murray at UCLA
- exchange with corpse from UCLA's body donation research program - as of here illusion begins -
- family identifies corpse as Michael -> no DNA check
- body goes to coroner, Michael leaves to ???
- coroner writes report on examination of wrong corpse
- coroner report induces DA activities
- DA activities induce kangaroo court with an elephant in the room
- Doc Murray gets "guilty of man's laughter" verdict
Post by: paula-c on November 13, 2011, 09:58:39 AM
Snoopy, totally agreed with all the above. I was focusing on the first part of The Scenario, the Ambulance @Carrolwood, which is 2 different one-camera films. The HT video (Ben's) does have an edit in it where the last :03 or so is actually the beginning of the tape for some reason edited into the end, the tourist video is one camera start to finish, no edits, and I was debunking those films being fake (staged on set) or the result of 2 takes.
It is possible that the "en-route" footage was filmed earlier or later. It's less then :10 of driving behind an ambulance on the main boulevard so this could be done anytime without rousing suspicion... although it almost certainly necessitates enlisting the services of an emergency vehicle on a second day (it had to be Ambulance 71), so there would have to be a reason why it was decided to film it this way. Those guys really did RUN off to something, presumably vehicles to follow the ambulance, so why not film while they're at it? If they did and something went wrong, and they decided not to use the tape, perhaps that necessitated the use of a second day of filming. But again there would be little risk of rousing suspicion while filming the ambulance just driving down the street. In any case, it still means there was an ambulance 71 that departed Carrolwood on 6/25/09 at ~1:00pm.
Off current topic: @Anyone who supports the 2 ambulances theory, i'm confused as to what the point is? Is Michael ambulancing out the side gate to escape while the paps and the (~10 person) "crowd" focus on the ambulance backing out the front? If so, why's he taking an ambulance? Why wouldn't he just hop in the back of one of his trusted entourage's SUV's and split? Why would you need a second ambulance? An SUV is much less conspicuous then an ambulance if you're trying to not attract attention to yourself. I don't understand what question the 2 ambulance theory is attempting to answer, so anyone who can explain further please do.
Bec it is the contrary, an SUV would be more consipicuous. Most of the public knows that celebritiy have black SUV. By having another ambulance, and taking another exit, no one on the road would suspect Michael is in that ambulance. As we all know ambulances have the free of way with the sirens on. That ambulance must have brought Michael to the airport as Jermaine stated.( as a slip up).. Very clever from Michael, no one would suspect anything. They would focus on the ambulance that backed up very slowlyyyyyyyyyyy.
I do not believe that Michael leaves Carrolwood in an ambulance and then reaches the airport in the ambulance that would have called the attention of so many people at that airport.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 10:33:23 AM
In my previous post I only wanted to give some structure.
We still rush into believing what we see without questioning enough.
I am aware of having been tricked many times in this - optically and in mind games. Still I am missing branches in the trees where the cars are parked but I'll put this to rest as yet another optical illusion.
I think the whole set is pretty simple if we keep it minimalistic, too.
No effect desired - no cause / cast required.
This makes it:
I excluded the alternative of a body exchange with a non-claimed corpse at the Coroner's morgue because that would be pretty complicated and risky. Michael must have been appearing "dead" = anabiotic at UCLA. This would have been detected by modern intense care monitoring equipment. Too much effort, too many witnesses.
- one ambulance at Carolwood arriving upon (planted) emergency call
- a (living) body = Michael with Doc Murray in the ambulance
- Michael arriving with Doc Murray at UCLA
- exchange with corpse from UCLA's body donation research program - as of here illusion begins -
- family identifies corpse as Michael -> no DNA check
- body goes to coroner, Michael leaves to ???
- coroner writes report on examination of wrong corpse
- coroner report induces DA activities
- DA activities induce kangaroo court with an elephant in the room
- Doc Murray gets "guilty of man's laughter" verdict
Thank you, thank you Grace! bow/
My thought process is right in line with your post (saves me alot of typing!) :lol:
So I hope you don't mind if I use yours as a model ::P
The body:
1) Ambulance leaves Carolwood arrives at UCLA (Michael/Dr. Murray aboard)
2) Ambulance gurney enters emergency room (Michael/Murray/EMS/Security etc)
3) A corpse from UCLA's body donation research program is prepared for transport
4) Donated corpse is airlifted to Coroners via helicopter*
5) Donated corpse is shuttled to Coroners via transport van*
6) Coroner writes fake autopsy report (collaborated to Michaels specs)
7) Coroner findings reported to media--->induces DA activities (Kangaroo court)
Yup....that about covers it for me.
...(buzz) final answer....(for now) :lol:
.....time for breakfast & coffee! (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/character/smiley-vault-character-015.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/drinking-smiley-54.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 10:58:19 AM
@Grace: I don't think 28 months of investigation is "rushing" to believe at all. On the contrary, I think this is a very methodical and organized rational approach to believing.
@Souza, thanks for reposting those stills of the red car and thereby re-proving that the ambulance pic was staged, for all those who missed that.
Again, please, @anyone who wants to participate in the conversation, go back and read all the previous levels so we can move forward as a team, and not be distracted and held back by those unfamiliar with the information.
Also, please stay on topic as much as possible. SimPattyK, as fun as your montages are, the one you posted on Murray/Michael is very off topic and due to the size of the file, quite distracting to the conversation, requiring significant scrolling to get past it. Please refrain from posting your montages here unless they are on topic.
Unless anyone else wants to weigh in, I feel as though we have collectively settled on the most logical chain of events on 6/25/09 @Carrolwood is that one ambulance arrived, and then departed en-route to UCLA in live time as was depicted on the video taken by Ben's crew. All popular alternative ambulance theories offered here have been successfully and unequivocally debunked.
If you disagree with my statement, please, weigh in and be heard, so we can continuing making progress.
Post by: Sarahli on November 13, 2011, 11:08:01 AM
TS:
Quote
There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 11:11:04 AM
Post by: Sarahli on November 13, 2011, 11:29:18 AM
Well yes, Sarahli, we were supposed to prove that statement is the most likely truth; methodically and in organized fashion, by debunking the most common (or all) alternative theories that could be presented. I think we satisfied the objective. Does anyone disagree?
Yes and I agreed with most of what you have said concerning this subject. I think that it's what makes most sense when considering all the comments and thoughts so far.
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 11:30:53 AM
I'm on board with bec and those who think similarly. I've been all over the place with what I've been thinking these last 2+ years of hoaxing but in doing so, I (and others) have sometimes over-complicated the theories as to what happened that day.
What I'm unsure of is exactly how WE (the hoaxers) have been hoaxed. FBI? Maybe, but there is still the 333 pages from 7 files (with 111 pages withheld in the first file) intended for release on 12/21/09. That's what gets me when I try to reason the FBI is NOT involved. Plus their documents show his middle name is Joe and when the FBI refer to Michael as being dead, they use Joseph as the middle name. I concede there may not be a sting but there is still at least someone in the FBI who knows something, or is helping. I do not think this is unreasonable.
I don't think Ben's slip-up ("other day") was meant to trick us as we've determined (I think) that the photo must've been taken on another day to get the desired shot.
Was Michael there that day is my big question. Or did he slip off to the airport? Did he necessarily have to jet out of the country? We've "seen" him sit up in the stretcher and in the helicopter. We've seen him jump out of the back of the coroner's van, from the "de-bunked" video that was released on August 25/09. If Michael WAS NOT there in the ambulance, hospital, helicopter ride, coroner van - then a dummy would make sense but I am really thinking that Michael actively took part in his hoax and was there every step of the way. The key people already knew it was not real and his security would be assured and with all the chaos and confusion surrounding the events of that day, it would be almost easy for him to be right there, hiding in plain view.
Sorry if I was repeating anybody but I agree we need to come together on a solid theory that makes the most sense.
Post by: jujubii on November 13, 2011, 11:40:43 AM
Quote
What I'm unsure of is exactly how WE (the hoaxers) have been hoaxed. FBI? Maybe, but there is still the 333 pages from 7 files (with 111 pages withheld in the first file) intended for release on 12/21/09. That's what gets me when I try to reason the FBI is NOT involved. Plus their documents show his middle name is Joe and when the FBI refer to Michael as being dead, they use Joseph as the middle name. I concede there may not be a sting but there is still at least someone in the FBI who knows something, or is helping. I do not think this is unreasonable.
All that makes me think...
Witness Protection Program... how would this come into play?
And would the FBI be in on the hoax if Michael is in the WPP?
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 11:44:09 AM
QuoteWhat I'm unsure of is exactly how WE (the hoaxers) have been hoaxed. FBI? Maybe, but there is still the 333 pages from 7 files (with 111 pages withheld in the first file) intended for release on 12/21/09. That's what gets me when I try to reason the FBI is NOT involved. Plus their documents show his middle name is Joe and when the FBI refer to Michael as being dead, they use Joseph as the middle name. I concede there may not be a sting but there is still at least someone in the FBI who knows something, or is helping. I do not think this is unreasonable.
All that makes me think...
Witness Protection Program... how would this come into play?
And would the FBI be in on the hoax if Michael is in the WPP?
I don't believe Michael would be put so much time, effort and thought into this hoax just to go into WPP. And if he was in WPP, we wouldn't be investigating this hoax because there would not have been clues left for us to find.
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 12:27:36 PM
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 13, 2011, 01:15:03 PM
Can we now come to the consensus that there was no dead body? I think it's been proven there would be too many complications and risks involved with an actual corpse. This is a thriller, yes, but not necessarily all the way morbid.I agree that Michael was there the whole time. Like you said, we have "proof" that he was there from various photos/videos. The only proof we have of him going to the airport is a "report" that a section of LAX was closed and there was a flight to an unknown destination, which could be easily fabricated. We also have Jermaine's slip-up which could have been a genuine mistake (I accidentally called a stapler a calculator the other day) or it could have been a clue just for the purpose of 1) getting us to investigate and 2) as a distraction that fits with alternative theories (i.e. like when TS was playing devil's advocate).
I'm on board with bec and those who think similarly. I've been all over the place with what I've been thinking these last 2+ years of hoaxing but in doing so, I (and others) have sometimes over-complicated the theories as to what happened that day.
What I'm unsure of is exactly how WE (the hoaxers) have been hoaxed. FBI? Maybe, but there is still the 333 pages from 7 files (with 111 pages withheld in the first file) intended for release on 12/21/09. That's what gets me when I try to reason the FBI is NOT involved. Plus their documents show his middle name is Joe and when the FBI refer to Michael as being dead, they use Joseph as the middle name. I concede there may not be a sting but there is still at least someone in the FBI who knows something, or is helping. I do not think this is unreasonable.
I don't think Ben's slip-up ("other day") was meant to trick us as we've determined (I think) that the photo must've been taken on another day to get the desired shot.
Was Michael there that day is my big question. Or did he slip off to the airport? Did he necessarily have to jet out of the country? We've "seen" him sit up in the stretcher and in the helicopter. We've seen him jump out of the back of the coroner's van, from the "de-bunked" video that was released on August 25/09. If Michael WAS NOT there in the ambulance, hospital, helicopter ride, coroner van - then a dummy would make sense but I am really thinking that Michael actively took part in his hoax and was there every step of the way. The key people already knew it was not real and his security would be assured and with all the chaos and confusion surrounding the events of that day, it would be almost easy for him to be right there, hiding in plain view.
Sorry if I was repeating anybody but I agree we need to come together on a solid theory that makes the most sense.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 01:27:50 PM
[...]Also, please stay on topic as much as possible. SimPattyK, as fun as your montages are, the one you posted on Murray/Michael is very off topic and due to the size of the file, quite distracting to the conversation, requiring significant scrolling to get past it. Please refrain from posting your montages here unless they are on topic.?
[...]
Quote from: TS
Therefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
Even though, TS indeed, indicated to us towards the second part of his message, that we should focus on debating on the "ambulance-theories", I didn't read anywhere that this topic should be exclusively and entirely dedicated to the "ambulance discussion".
I understood from TS post that this level is generally about the "HOWs of this hoax", namely for us to figure out and discuss HOW Michael managed to pull off a hoax of such magnitude, since the WHYs and the WHENs had been discussed in the previous levels.
Therefore, I think the subject Michael/Murray is not really OFF topic. Unless, of course you decide to discuss exclusively about the ambulance here. Then I promise I won't intervene anymore...
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 01:31:55 PM
Can we now come to the consensus that there was no dead body? I think it's been proven there would be too many complications and risks involved with an actual corpse. This is a thriller, yes, but not necessarily all the way morbid.I agree that Michael was there the whole time. Like you said, we have "proof" that he was there from various photos/videos. The only proof we have of him going to the airport is a "report" that a section of LAX was closed and there was a flight to an unknown destination, which could be easily fabricated. We also have Jermaine's slip-up which could have been a genuine mistake (I accidentally called a stapler a calculator the other day) or it could have been a clue just for the purpose of 1) getting us to investigate and 2) as a distraction that fits with alternative theories (i.e. like when TS was playing devil's advocate).
I'm on board with bec and those who think similarly. I've been all over the place with what I've been thinking these last 2+ years of hoaxing but in doing so, I (and others) have sometimes over-complicated the theories as to what happened that day.
What I'm unsure of is exactly how WE (the hoaxers) have been hoaxed. FBI? Maybe, but there is still the 333 pages from 7 files (with 111 pages withheld in the first file) intended for release on 12/21/09. That's what gets me when I try to reason the FBI is NOT involved. Plus their documents show his middle name is Joe and when the FBI refer to Michael as being dead, they use Joseph as the middle name. I concede there may not be a sting but there is still at least someone in the FBI who knows something, or is helping. I do not think this is unreasonable.
I don't think Ben's slip-up ("other day") was meant to trick us as we've determined (I think) that the photo must've been taken on another day to get the desired shot.
Was Michael there that day is my big question. Or did he slip off to the airport? Did he necessarily have to jet out of the country? We've "seen" him sit up in the stretcher and in the helicopter. We've seen him jump out of the back of the coroner's van, from the "de-bunked" video that was released on August 25/09. If Michael WAS NOT there in the ambulance, hospital, helicopter ride, coroner van - then a dummy would make sense but I am really thinking that Michael actively took part in his hoax and was there every step of the way. The key people already knew it was not real and his security would be assured and with all the chaos and confusion surrounding the events of that day, it would be almost easy for him to be right there, hiding in plain view.
Sorry if I was repeating anybody but I agree we need to come together on a solid theory that makes the most sense.
Jermaine loves to drop clues that this is a hoax, whether or not what he's said is actually accurate or not, like the airport slip-up. I too think that a destination unknown flight record can be faked - for the purpose of raising the question as to whether Michael 'got out of Dodge' before he 'died' because if I remember correctly, the timing of the flight was in the morning before anything kicked off.
I think he would want to be right there in the thick of it- this is his hoax and he would want it to go as he envisioned and carefully planned for. Being on a plane and out of the loop as all of this is happening does not make sense.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 01:33:09 PM
In my previous post I only wanted to give some structure.
We still rush into believing what we see without questioning enough.
I am aware of having been tricked many times in this - optically and in mind games. Still I am missing branches in the trees where the cars are parked but I'll put this to rest as yet another optical illusion.
I think the whole set is pretty simple if we keep it minimalistic, too.
No effect desired - no cause / cast required.
This makes it:
I excluded the alternative of a body exchange with a non-claimed corpse at the Coroner's morgue because that would be pretty complicated and risky. Michael must have been appearing "dead" = anabiotic at UCLA. This would have been detected by modern intense care monitoring equipment. Too much effort, too many witnesses.
- one ambulance at Carolwood arriving upon (planted) emergency call
- a (living) body = Michael with Doc Murray in the ambulance
- Michael arriving with Doc Murray at UCLA
- exchange with corpse from UCLA's body donation research program - as of here illusion begins -
- family identifies corpse as Michael -> no DNA check
- body goes to coroner, Michael leaves to ???
- coroner writes report on examination of wrong corpse
- coroner report induces DA activities
- DA activities induce kangaroo court with an elephant in the room
- Doc Murray gets "guilty of man's laughter" verdict
Thank you, thank you Grace! bow/
My thought process is right in line with your post (saves me alot of typing!) :lol:
So I hope you don't mind if I use yours as a model ::P
The body:
1) Ambulance leaves Carolwood arrives at UCLA (Michael/Dr. Murray aboard)
2) Ambulance gurney enters emergency room (Michael/Murray/EMS/Security etc)
3) A corpse from UCLA's body donation research program is prepared for transport
4) Donated corpse is airlifted to Coroners via helicopter*
5) Donated corpse is shuttled to Coroners via transport van*
6) Coroner writes fake autopsy report (collaborated to Michaels specs)
7) Coroner findings reported to media--->induces DA activities (Kangaroo court)
Yup....that about covers it for me.
...(buzz) final answer....(for now) :lol:
.....time for breakfast & coffee! (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/character/smiley-vault-character-015.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/drinking-smiley-54.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
/bravo/ to both of you. Perfect scenario if you ask me. I agree with all you wrote. BUT we shouldn't forget about the body change inside the helicopter. A normal body shape was brought into the helicopter but a flat surfboard looking thing was brought out of the helicopter. And the security belts was not on the body no more when they were taking it out. IF that was the donated corpse inside the helicopter, why did they change it with a surfboard?
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2152/40111147712180218010577.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/40111147712180218010577.jpg/)
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 01:33:38 PM
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 01:43:10 PM
I think we can sum up our conclusions for 7a with this quote:
TS:QuoteThere would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
So we should leave Ben's major slip-up "that day and the other da... uhmm" aside? The ambulance was there just on 6-25-09? So we can simply say that the so called ambulance pic was taken when the ambulance was inside the mansion. Then what was the thing that Ben was talking about? Can it be about a meeting that Michael made with him just maybe a day or two days before the 25th? Maybe that was a real slip-up and Ben was talking about the meeting and the photo shooting of the ambulance with "that day and the other d.. uhmm".
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 01:54:17 PM
[...]Also, please stay on topic as much as possible. SimPattyK, as fun as your montages are, the one you posted on Murray/Michael is very off topic and due to the size of the file, quite distracting to the conversation, requiring significant scrolling to get past it. Please refrain from posting your montages here unless they are on topic.?
[...]Quote from: TSTherefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
Even though, TS indeed, indicated to us towards the second part of his message, that we should focus on debating on the "ambulance-theories", I didn't read anywhere that this topic should be exclusively and entirely dedicated to the "ambulance discussion".
I understood from TS post that this level is generally about the "HOWs of this hoax", namely for us to figure out and discuss HOW Michael managed to pull off a hoax of such magnitude, since the WHYs and the WHENs had been discussed in the previous levels.
Therefore, I think the subject Michael/Murray is not really OFF topic. Unless, of course you decide to discuss exclusively about the ambulance here. Then I promise I won't intervene anymore...
How about creating a new thread about Murray is MJ in disguise and the ones who want to discuss the issue, keep on discussing it there. I'm personally so fed up with this unrealistic fantasy as I tried to explain it many times regarding to my job that Michael can not be Murray in disguise. You guys can still keep on believing what you want but I have to agree with bec that this issue is so off-topic on this thread. You guys wrote that Michael was in Murray disguise and was inside the ambulance. Point taken. Let's move to other theories.
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 01:57:54 PM
Photo of Murray out of the hospital, ..the June 25?
And all these people where they are?
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/murray11.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3578/3662978575_642da96d10.jpg)
(http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Jackson%20Family%20Arriving%20UCLA%20Medical%20Center%20m8AvzaBwwdfl.jpg)
(http://www.jackopedia.com/wiki/images/1/17/Reporter_and_Crowd_outside_UCLA_-_MJ_Death.jpg)
That first image of Murray - I remember watching that video footage of him outside UCLA and it looked totally fake to me. His body was in the exact same position the whole time, he just got a bit bigger as he kept allegedly walking. I realize some security footage just captures stills and puts them together but it didn't look like Murray moved at all. The footage looked doctored (lol) with Murray's one image being moved forward over and over again. I tried finding this footage but I haven't seen it since that day in the trial.
Post by: Sarahli on November 13, 2011, 02:08:20 PM
I think we can sum up our conclusions for 7a with this quote:
TS:QuoteThere would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
So we should leave Ben's major slip-up "that day and the other da... uhmm" aside? The ambulance was there just on 6-25-09? So we can simply say that the so called ambulance pic was taken when the ambulance was inside the mansion. Then what was the thing that Ben was talking about? Can it be about a meeting that Michael made with him just maybe a day or two days before the 25th? Maybe that was a real slip-up and Ben was talking about the meeting and the photo shooting of the ambulance with "that day and the other d.. uhmm".
I do not think that this slip-up was in reference of a possible other day with the ambulance parading in front of the house. Sorry I can't remember just now what it was about but obviously this picture has not been taken on June 25th. So what is the need for 2 days??? Unless a big amount of risks I do not see why.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 02:11:01 PM
Should I think we should remember what exactly happened on 9.9.9 and 9.9.9 issue? From TS' own update.
Quote
it was 77 days from the “death” on June 25 to 9-9-09; and it was 7 days from the “burial” to 9-9-09. strongest proof of hoax, not murder; and also it very clearly shows one of the main reasons for the hoax: to turn the 666 NWO upside down, 999! It is the Biblical counting system known as “inclusive reckoning”; you must use this system to arrive at 77 days and 7 days to 9-9-09. Everyone knows that the “death” was on 6-25-09, and the “burial” was on 9-3-09. Using inclusive reckoning (shown below): it is 77 days from 6-25-09 to 9-9-09, and 7 days from 9-3-09 to 9-9-09.
But MJ chose 2009 as the year, because that year would be three 9’s. Full moon came on 7-7 in 2009, the day of the memorial; it was the first time since 1952 that there was a full moon on July 7, and it won’t happen again for decades {http://fullmooncalendar.net/}. This is another reason for the fake death being in 2009. Furthermore, full moon came also on September 4 in 2009—just one day after the burial! And if you looked at the moon with the naked eye on September 3 (night of the burial): it looked full. Do you remember seeing the full moon in Thriller? And if MJ was really dead, but for whatever reason the family wanted his burial to be on a full moon: then why didn’t they have it on Friday, September 4? There is one very clear reason for all of these things: it’s 7 days (inclusive) from 9-3-09 to 9-9-09!
MJ “1998” Autographs
1998 is an interesting number, that can be divided evenly by only these single-digit numbers: 1998 / 2 = 999; 1998 / 3 = 666; 1998 / 6 = 333; and 1998 / 9 = 222. If you add 222 (that last one) to 777 (red shirt), you have 999. The first one is 999 itself; and the other two added together equal 999 (666 + 333). Also, if you add the first digit (1) to the last three (998), you have 999 (1 + 998 = 999). And if you add all four digits, it reduces to 9 (1 + 9 + 9 + 8 = 27; 2 + 7 = 9). Even if we had nothing else to go by, just the 1998 alone should point us pretty clearly to 9-9-09; but there is far more. in this case, the arrow is down and would represent the death. But you also have the resurrection here, with the upward pointing caret (^). However, these symbols are part of the equation, as well: start with the 1998, go down (subtract) by 666 = 1332; then insert this answer (caret means insert) into the last part: 1332 / 4 = 333. Of what significance is 333? It is the exact number needed to turn the NWO 666 pyramid upside-down; 666 + 333 = 999!!! In fact, that is why the three digits on the dangerous code are vertical, not horizontal; they represent the vertical layering system of the pyramid (666), and then turned upside down (999).
Autopsy Report “9-9-09, Date Finalized”
When the report was released, everyone could see that the very last thing on the whole report said: “9-9-09, Date Finalized”. Was this a coincidence? Aside from the 9-9-09 resurrection aspect of the coroner’s report, there are numerous other fishy things.
“This Is It” Movie Poster on 9-9-09
Although the poster may have surfaced unofficially a little early: it was not posted on the official MJ website, until Wednesday 9-9-09! {http://www.michaeljackson.com/us/news/michael-jacksons-it-movie-poster}. And remember, this is the poster with about 10 different red shirt pictures—reminding us of the 777 (77 from death to 9-9-09, and 7 from burial to 9-9-09). The movie itself was originally scheduled to open on Friday, October 30; but they moved it to Wednesday, October 28. Notice that 9-9-09 was a Wednesday, and the official opening date was on Wednesday (10-28-09)—exactly 7 weeks after 9-9-09!! Also, the movie was originally scheduled to run for only 2 weeks—which would bring it up to 9 weeks from 9-9-09!!! And from the original Thriller: “… see you next Wednesday!” “The line [‘see you next Wednesday’] is also mentioned in the opening scene for Michael Jackson’s ‘Thriller’ when the police decode a message from Jackson’s werewolf character.”
Jermaine and La Toya Supported 9-9-09
Jermaine had his MJ Tribute press conference in London on 9-9-09! London??? Yes, London—exactly where “This Is It” concerts were originally scheduled; and also where the O2 press conference was held on March 5, 2009. Two days later, TMZ posted this video of La Toya Jackson Christmas shopping (although posted on the 18th, she did the actual shopping during the “99” redirect). At 0:47, the camera points to a “9.99” price tag for about 5 seconds {http://www.tmz.com/2009/12/18/la-toya-jackson-chris-brown-tiger-woods-target-christmas-holiday-shopping-video/}
IF this hoax was made just for FUN purposes like a movie and the ARG, then why is making 6 6 6 upside down and the date 9 9 9 was so important for Michael? We have his 1998 autographs, the autopsy reports with 9 9 9 date finalized, Latoya and Jermaine clues on 9 9 9 and TII poster on 9 9 9. I don't know how it could be more obvious but simply Michael was warning us about 6 6 6 which is illuminati! Even if you don't believe illuminati was a thread for Michael, you should believe that he was trying to WARN us against something! Otherwise he could make this hoax movie again and he didn't need to use this much 9 9 9 in it. He wouldn't depend on this particular date this much. There has to be a reason why this number is so important for Michael and I do not think he used it for decoration of the movie only.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 02:12:31 PM
How about letting people express themselves instead of telling them to go ?[...]Also, please stay on topic as much as possible. SimPattyK, as fun as your montages are, the one you posted on Murray/Michael is very off topic and due to the size of the file, quite distracting to the conversation, requiring significant scrolling to get past it. Please refrain from posting your montages here unless they are on topic.?
[...]Quote from: TSTherefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
Even though, TS indeed, indicated to us towards the second part of his message, that we should focus on debating on the "ambulance-theories", I didn't read anywhere that this topic should be exclusively and entirely dedicated to the "ambulance discussion".
I understood from TS post that this level is generally about the "HOWs of this hoax", namely for us to figure out and discuss HOW Michael managed to pull off a hoax of such magnitude, since the WHYs and the WHENs had been discussed in the previous levels.
Therefore, I think the subject Michael/Murray is not really OFF topic. Unless, of course you decide to discuss exclusively about the ambulance here. Then I promise I won't intervene anymore...
How about creating a new thread about Murray is MJ in disguise and the ones who want to discuss the issue, keep on discussing it there. I'm personally so fed up with this unrealistic fantasy as I tried to explain it many times regarding to my job that Michael can not be Murray in disguise. You guys can still keep on believing what you want but I have to agree with bec that this issue is so off-topic on this thread. You guys wrote that Michael was in Murray disguise and was inside the ambulance. Point taken. Let's move to other theories.
@PureLove: is it really OFF-topic? or is it because you disagree?
To me it's just another theory [like so many others discussed here] that tries to uncover HOW Michael did it.
Whether you agree or not with this theory, it's just another issue, your personal issue. Just skip it, is that so difficult?
Why block it off? why send us to another "corner" just because you are personally "fed up" with it?
And frankly, I really think that Michael/Murray discussion was over until you and bec reacted to it as being "OFF-topic" according to your subjective opinions. I really didn't want to say anything else about it, I said what I had to say about that theory that MJonMind developed so well and that was it. Until someone else comes up with other arguments to sustain it, I really have nothing else to say about it. So you can remain tranquil about that...
But I am still surprised :shock: by the way you limit the expression of others' opinions just because you disagree or because "you're personally fed up" :roll:
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 02:16:32 PM
I think we can sum up our conclusions for 7a with this quote:
TS:QuoteThere would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
So we should leave Ben's major slip-up "that day and the other da... uhmm" aside? The ambulance was there just on 6-25-09? So we can simply say that the so called ambulance pic was taken when the ambulance was inside the mansion. Then what was the thing that Ben was talking about? Can it be about a meeting that Michael made with him just maybe a day or two days before the 25th? Maybe that was a real slip-up and Ben was talking about the meeting and the photo shooting of the ambulance with "that day and the other d.. uhmm".
I do not think that this slip-up was in reference of a possible other day with the ambulance parading in front of the house. Sorry I can't remember just now what it was about but obviously this picture has not been taken on June 25th. So what is the need for 2 days??? Unless a big amount of risks I do not see why.
Ben used that "slip-up" when he was explaining how he took the ambulance picture as far as I remember. "We were there that day and the other d... uhmm" was his words again as far as I remember. lol
Post by: fordtocarr on November 13, 2011, 02:19:02 PM
Sign lady, fans, paps?
Because if they did then if we choose to believe they are not actors, but DID see it go in there that day, it would be helpful in the ambulance theories.
If no one around there saw it, then maybe it wasn't GOING INTO Carolwood, maybe it was already there, or maybe it was there another day or on a set. But, if it WAS seen!! Really, ambulances come with sirens ON, so sign lady would've heard it...prob. ran there to see what's up. There are also paps who listen to police band radios, and know Michael's address and would've followed it. NO one saw it GO in there?
What about private citizens who listen to police scanners? No one has come forward saying they heard the call into 911??
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 02:22:24 PM
How about letting people express themselves instead of telling them to go ?[...]Also, please stay on topic as much as possible. SimPattyK, as fun as your montages are, the one you posted on Murray/Michael is very off topic and due to the size of the file, quite distracting to the conversation, requiring significant scrolling to get past it. Please refrain from posting your montages here unless they are on topic.?
[...]Quote from: TSTherefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
Even though, TS indeed, indicated to us towards the second part of his message, that we should focus on debating on the "ambulance-theories", I didn't read anywhere that this topic should be exclusively and entirely dedicated to the "ambulance discussion".
I understood from TS post that this level is generally about the "HOWs of this hoax", namely for us to figure out and discuss HOW Michael managed to pull off a hoax of such magnitude, since the WHYs and the WHENs had been discussed in the previous levels.
Therefore, I think the subject Michael/Murray is not really OFF topic. Unless, of course you decide to discuss exclusively about the ambulance here. Then I promise I won't intervene anymore...
How about creating a new thread about Murray is MJ in disguise and the ones who want to discuss the issue, keep on discussing it there. I'm personally so fed up with this unrealistic fantasy as I tried to explain it many times regarding to my job that Michael can not be Murray in disguise. You guys can still keep on believing what you want but I have to agree with bec that this issue is so off-topic on this thread. You guys wrote that Michael was in Murray disguise and was inside the ambulance. Point taken. Let's move to other theories.
@PureLove: is it really OFF-topic? or is it because you disagree?
To me it's just another theory [like so many others discussed here] that tries to uncover HOW Michael did it.
Whether you agree or not with this theory, it's just another issue, your personal issue. Just skip it, is that so difficult?
Why block it off? why send us to another "corner" just because you are personally "fed up" with it?
And frankly, I really think that Michael/Murray discussion was over until you and bec reacted to it as being "OFF-topic" according to your subjective opinions. I really didn't want to say anything else about it, I had what I had to say about that theory that MJonMind developed so well and that was it. Until someone else comes up with other arguments to sustain it, I really have nothing else to say about it. So you can remain tranquil about that...
But I am still surprised :shock: by the way you limit the expression of others' opinions just because you disagree or because "you're fed up" :roll:
This thread's purpose is NOT about discussing if Murray is MJ in disguise Simm. That is the point where you take it off-topic. I talked enough about this fantasy, and not getting in it again. You can keep on talking about it but if a moderator also thinks that it is off-topic for this thread, there is something about it, don't you think? My offer was about creating a place where the ones who are interested to read it can go and discuss it WITHOUT bothering others who want to stay on topic! You can take this like 'limit the expression of others', I take it as 'respecting others who want to stay on topic and do not care about this issue'.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 02:24:43 PM
[...]This thread's purpose is NOT about discussing if Murray is MJ in disguise Simm. [...]Show me where that is written and you'll never see me on the forum again. Promise!
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 02:26:48 PM
[...]This thread's purpose is NOT about discussing if Murray is MJ in disguise Simm. [...]Show me where that is written and you'll never see me on the forum again. Promise!
Go and read TS' post again. Enough said. Back to real case.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 02:28:28 PM
See? it's a matter of subjectivity here. I can tell you the same thing: Go and read TS' post again.[...]This thread's purpose is NOT about discussing if Murray is MJ in disguise Simm. [...]Show me where that is written and you'll never see me on the forum again. Promise!
Go and read TS' post again. Enough said. Back to real case.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 02:31:40 PM
See? it's a matter of subjectivity here. I can tell you the same thing: Go and read TS' post again.[...]This thread's purpose is NOT about discussing if Murray is MJ in disguise Simm. [...]Show me where that is written and you'll never see me on the forum again. Promise!
Go and read TS' post again. Enough said. Back to real case.
Yeah, whatever Simm.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 02:32:22 PM
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 02:35:50 PM
I know Bec said to read the comments and I did but didn't see an answer to my question. Maybe I did miss it, or maybe it's not important, but I wondered if ANYONE ever said they SAW the ambulance GO into Carolwood?
Sign lady, fans, paps?
Because if they did then if we choose to believe they are not actors, but DID see it go in there that day, it would be helpful in the ambulance theories.
If no one around there saw it, then maybe it wasn't GOING INTO Carolwood, maybe it was already there, or maybe it was there another day or on a set. But, if it WAS seen!! Really, ambulances come with sirens ON, so sign lady would've heard it...prob. ran there to see what's up. There are also paps who listen to police band radios, and know Michael's address and would've followed it. NO one saw it GO in there?
What about private citizens who listen to police scanners? No one has come forward saying they heard the call into 911??
Nice question Ford. I must have missed your post. Yeah, NEVER heard of someone who saw the ambulance going into Carolwood! BUT wouldn't that create suspicion IF the ambulance was already there and didn't arrive and get into the mansion? I think Michael wanted it all to be as real as it could be. So imo the ambulance arrived on the 25th and it wasn't inside the mansion already. But still very nice thought! And it could be inside already like you said.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 02:39:55 PM
Photo of Murray out of the hospital, ..the June 25?
And all these people where they are?
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/murray11.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3578/3662978575_642da96d10.jpg)
(http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Jackson%20Family%20Arriving%20UCLA%20Medical%20Center%20m8AvzaBwwdfl.jpg)
(http://www.jackopedia.com/wiki/images/1/17/Reporter_and_Crowd_outside_UCLA_-_MJ_Death.jpg)
That first image of Murray - I remember watching that video footage of him outside UCLA and it looked totally fake to me. His body was in the exact same position the whole time, he just got a bit bigger as he kept allegedly walking. I realize some security footage just captures stills and puts them together but it didn't look like Murray moved at all. The footage looked doctored (lol) with Murray's one image being moved forward over and over again. I tried finding this footage but I haven't seen it since that day in the trial.
What if Murray used the back door of the hospital and all these people were in front of the hospital and not in the back side of it?
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 02:44:46 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 02:44:56 PM
Quote from: PureLove
but if a moderator also thinks that it is off-topic for this thread, there is something about it, don't you think?With no disrespect intended to the moderators: PureLove you asked me what I think. I'll tell you what i think: just because someone is a moderator here, it doesn't make him/her GOD. If bec thinks I was off-topic, it's her opinion, it doesn't mean she's necessarily right just because she's a moderator.
[...] I talked enough about this fantasy
But of course, she can interdict me to speak about a subject or another on a topic because she wants it to.
Still that doesn't make her right either.
The issue here is: it doesn't mater what theory I was talking about , I could have talked about the theory that Barack Obama is Murray in disguise, for instance. Fantasy or not, reality or not, we're discussing here about a huge PROJECT put together by a man who has always based his creations not only on talent and real, tangible things, but mostly on imagination, on fantasy, on magic!
If you guys intend to block off anyone who tries to touch subjects that connect to that fanstasy-magical world of Michael, just because you disagree or "you're fed up" then you're blocking us all from understanding HOW his mind works and workED when he created this! With a negative attitude like this you inhibit people's imagination and deductions abilities that could help bring forward possible theories, some of which could prove totally false in the end, but some of them could prove to be true.
Because of situations like this ^^ there are many people out there reading the forum and not daring to say a word, because they're afraid to be shut off like I just was!
Well , PureLove, I must tell you that it's my turn to be fed up!
Sorry for the outburst.
I admit NOW I was really OFF-topic!
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 02:51:16 PM
Snoopy: in your scenario, why do you need a donated body simply for the helicopter scene? Since it was simply a body shape wrapped in a sheet, couldn't this "corpse" simply be a dummy or even a live person playing dead? What's the benefit of using a real corpse for this portion? What's the detriment? A real body may leak bodily fluids. A sheet would not protect surfaces or hands from coming in contact with these fluids. It's messy. What desired benefit of using a real body would be worth risking this mess for hoax purposes? Why bother using a real body for just this portion (as you have outlined)?
I was hoping you'd ask me that. :mrgreen:
"Dummy vs Cadaver"
Dummy Scenario:
-
-
- Prop dummy was stored at Carolwood (possible; could be used as prop if Michael were not present)
Let's assume they did use a dummy(replica of Michael)
Pros:
- Michael would not need to be present for ambulance drama
- Could be used for autopsy photos
- frame of reference for Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount
- a body to transport to UCLA
- frame of reference for UCLA personnel
- a body to transport to Coroners office
Cons:
- acquisition (someone has to create it without raising suspicion)
- disposal (where does it go after the coroners office/who gets rid of it/who stores it?)
- risk factor (handling a lifesize dummy requires manpower, time and storage)
The main logistical problem with using a dummy is STORAGE. (What do you do with the dummy?)
The risk factor is higher that the plot would be revealed or raise suspicion upon discovery of a dummy. Disposal and storage methods are time intensive with regards to handling at the Coroners office and require additional personnel.
Donated body/Cadaver Scenario:
- UCLA is a teaching hospital; bodies/cadavers are routinely donated (no one needed to die that day)
- A donated body/cadaver is kept in storage on premises (UCLA personnel would have access)
- A donated body/cadaver can be transported between the coroners and the hospital without raising suspicion.
The donated body/cadaver scenario offers the least amount of risk in discovery. The body/cadaver could be moved freely throughout the hospital without raising suspicion.
A donated body/cadaver offers two things:
1) a body for the media to see being transported (helicopter/van)
2) a body that can be returned back to UCLA from the Coroners and be re-stored for use.
The reason I favor the Donated body/Cadaver scenario is the limitation of RISK.
For the purposes of 911 call/Carolwood, a body was not needed.(dummy or otherwise)
Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount could all have been using Michael himself as the "frame of reference" to enact the scene and then simply strapped him to the gurney and carried him down the stairs into the waiting ambulance (if it was required)---it wouldn't make a difference because the cameras could not see behind the gates.
Once at UCLA, the donated body/cadaver scenario went into play.
The body was already there, the sequence was carried out for the media (helicopter/van transport) to the Coroners and then the body/cadaver was returned to UCLA from the Coroners.
There are no storage issues, no risk of exposure, no raised suspicions. Even with dealing with "potential fluids" from a real body (although an untouched/frozen body could have been used) would far outweight the risks of trying to store/dispose a of dummy.
.....it's just logistically the easier scenario in my opinion.
...boy does that give new meaning to the word "recycling" :lol:
....I tried not to make this too "wordy" :roll:
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 13, 2011, 02:54:32 PM
I understand what TS is saying, like why it HAD to be staged in ADVANCE, still his/hers reasoning is not PROOF.
I still believe it could have been fabricated in those couple of hours between the ambulance leaving the residence and the moment the photo was made public. And if it was fabricated during this time, it could have been for money, not for hoax-purposes, so we can't 100% take the fake photo as evidence for the hoax unless it was staged in advance.
About the ambulance, I already stated it from the beginning of this thread that I believe it was all real, the ambulance and the fire truck. Real like they belong to LAFD and they arrived there because of the 911 call.
About the coroner, I agree there is no way he can not be in the hoax.
About the usage of a body or not, I still am not sure because I feel it is important to keep the paramedics and the UCLA docs out of the hoax. Yet, if this was all an FBI operation, there was no need for a dead body ---> paramedics and UCLA docs are in the hoax and not allowed to speak.
These are my conclusions so far.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 03:03:11 PM
Quote from: PureLovebut if a moderator also thinks that it is off-topic for this thread, there is something about it, don't you think?With no disrespect intended to the moderators: PureLove you asked me what I think. I'll tell you what i think: just because someone is a moderator here, it doesn't make him/her GOD. If bec thinks I was off-topic, it's her opinion, it doesn't mean she's necessarily right just because she's a moderator.
[...] I talked enough about this fantasy
But of course, she can interdict me to speak about a subject or another on a topic because she wants it to.
Still that doesn't make her right either.
The issue here is: it doesn't mater what theory I was talking about , I could have talked about the theory that Barack Obama is Murray in disguise, for instance. Fantasy or not, reality or not, we're discussing here about a huge PROJECT put together by a man who has always based his creations not only on talent and real, tangible things, but mostly on imagination, on fantasy, on magic!
If you guys intend to block off anyone who tries to touch subjects that connect to that fanstasy-magical world of Michael, just because you disagree or "you're fed up" then you're blocking us all from understanding HOW his mind works and workED when he created this! With a negative attitude like this you inhibit people's imagination and deductions abilities that could help bring forward possible theories, some of which could prove totally false in the end, but some of them could prove to be true.
Because of situations like this ^^ there are many people out there reading the forum and not daring to say a word, because they're afraid to be shut off like I just was!
Well , PureLove, I must tell you that it's my turn to be fed up!
Sorry for the outburst.
I admit NOW I was really OFF-topic!
NOBODY is telling you NOT to make posts Simm. NOBODY is telling NOBODY not to make posts. I just offered you to make your posts on a related thread. You are getting things personally and getting mad when there is no need to. If you write "whatever" be it and move on. Do not keep on opening the issue which is useless for this thread.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 13, 2011, 03:04:20 PM
bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang bangbang
Simpattyk, I also think it's off topic. We are discussing here if there was or wasn't an ambulance at Carolwood Drive on June 25th. If you want to discuss the possibility that Murray=MJ, open a new thread please.
PureLove, show more respect to other's belief please. Just because YOU are convinced that it's not possible, doesn't give you the right to disrespect others who do think it's a possibility. You could have just explained to Simpattyk why it is off topic, or report it to a moderator. No need to get nasty again.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 03:08:03 PM
Snoopy: in your scenario, why do you need a donated body simply for the helicopter scene? Since it was simply a body shape wrapped in a sheet, couldn't this "corpse" simply be a dummy or even a live person playing dead? What's the benefit of using a real corpse for this portion? What's the detriment? A real body may leak bodily fluids. A sheet would not protect surfaces or hands from coming in contact with these fluids. It's messy. What desired benefit of using a real body would be worth risking this mess for hoax purposes? Why bother using a real body for just this portion (as you have outlined)?
I was hoping you'd ask me that. :mrgreen:
"Dummy vs Cadaver"
Dummy Scenario:
-Prop dummy was stored at UCLA(Unlikely, where would it be stored? risk of discovery)
-Prop dummy stored offsite and brought to UCLA(risk of discovery in transport/raise suspicion)
- Prop dummy was stored at Carolwood (possible; could be used as prop if Michael were not present)
Let's assume they did use a dummy(replica of Michael)
Pros:
- Michael would not need to be present for ambulance drama
- Could be used for autopsy photos
- frame of reference for Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount
- a body to transport to UCLA
- frame of reference for UCLA personnel
- a body to transport to Coroners office
Cons:
- acquisition (someone has to create it without raising suspicion)
- disposal (where does it go after the coroners office/who gets rid of it/who stores it?)
- risk factor (handling a lifesize dummy requires manpower, time and storage)
The main logistical problem with using a dummy is STORAGE. (What do you do with the dummy?)
The risk factor is higher that the plot would be revealed or raise suspicion upon discovery of a dummy. Disposal and storage methods are time intensive with regards to handling at the Coroners office and require additional personnel.
Donated body/Cadaver Scenario:
- UCLA is a teaching hospital; bodies/cadavers are routinely donated (no one needed to die that day)
- A donated body/cadaver is kept in storage on premises (UCLA personnel would have access)
- A donated body/cadaver can be transported between the coroners and the hospital without raising suspicion.
The donated body/cadaver scenario offers the least amount of risk in discovery. The body/cadaver could be moved freely throughout the hospital without raising suspicion.
A donated body/cadaver offers two things:
1) a body for the media to see being transported (helicopter/van)
2) a body that can be returned back to UCLA from the Coroners and be re-stored
The reason I favor the Donated body/Cadaver scenario is the limitation of RISK.
For the purposes of 911 call/Carolwood, a body was not needed.
Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount could all have been using Michael himself as the "frame of reference" to enact the scene and then simply strapped him to the gurney and carried him down the stairs into the waiting ambulance.
Once at UCLA, the donated body/cadaver scenario went into play. The body was already there, the sequence was carried out for the media (helicopter/van transport) and then the body/cadaver was returned to UCLA from the Coroner at a later date.
There are no storage issues, no risk of exposure, no raised suspicions. Even with dealing with "potential fluids" from a real body (although an untouched/frozen body could have been used) would far outweight the risks of trying to store a dummy...it's just logistically the easier scenario in my opinion.
...boy does that give new meaning to the word "recycling" :lol:
....I tried not to make this too "wordy" :roll:
Snoopy, what do you think about the thing I posted about the cadaver getting inside the helicopter as a body shape and getting out different like a surfboard? Why did they change the cadaver in the helicopter?
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 03:10:33 PM
I have respect to every opinion as far as they are not delusional fantasies. What makes it a fantasy? Well, if it was debunked with proofs but if people keep on thinking it is a possibility, that's a fantasy imo. Sorry for being "nasty" but that's the way it is.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 13, 2011, 03:12:20 PM
@Souza
I have respect to every opinion as far as they are not delusional fantasies. What makes it a fantasy? Well, if it was debunked with proofs but if people keep on thinking it is a possibility, that's a fantasy imo. Sorry for being "nasty" but that's the way it is.
You didn't debunk a thing, you merely stated your opinion which some don't agree with. Stop calling people delusional.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
@Souza
I have respect to every opinion as far as they are not delusional fantasies. What makes it a fantasy? Well, if it was debunked with proofs but if people keep on thinking it is a possibility, that's a fantasy imo. Sorry for being "nasty" but that's the way it is.
You didn't debunk a thing, you merely stated your opinion which some don't agree with. Stop calling people delusional.
Unrealistic fantasies. I used the wrong word. I think I needed to bring a short dude and fake long legs and arms to debunk it but I didn't want to waste my time with that. My words look so worthless to you guys. Of course, who am I to speak on this issue!
Post by: scorpionchik on November 13, 2011, 03:14:40 PM
There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility?
Your question has a good point and gave me a brainstorm. Here is what IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND:
if Michael IS DEAD, how family is OK with INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, GROSS NEGLIGENCE up to 4 years in prison ONLY Bull Shit verdict, whereas they have been shouting since day one that MICHAEL WAS KILLED and CM IS a FALL GUY?
Is there going to be or is happening currently investigation to find REAL ASSASSINS? How / WHY family is OK with this verdict and accepts that "JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE". Because to me JASTICE HAS NOT BEEN DONE whatsoever.
This said, Michael is dead/killed is NOT possibility for me or family does not care anymore or does not love Michael enough.
Is this possible?
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 03:25:02 PM
There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility?
Your question has a good point and gave me a brainstorm. Here is what IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND:
if Michael IS DEAD, how family is OK with INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, GROSS NEGLIGENCE up to 4 years in prison ONLY Bull Shit verdict, whereas they have been shouting since day one that MICHAEL WAS KILLED and CM IS a FALL GUY?
Is there going to be or is happening currently investigation to find REAL ASSASSINS? How / WHY family is OK with this verdict and accepts that "JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE". Because to me JASTICE HAS NOT BEEN DONE whatsoever.
This said, Michael is dead/killed is NOT possibility for me or family does not care anymore or does not love Michael enough.
Is this possible?
Exactly Scorpion. They were screaming around that Murray is just a fall guy but there are people behind this. And after the guilty verdict, the family looks so relieved and they say the justice was served. What about the people behind Murray then? What about the ones who were after this "murder"? They forgot about them all. IF what the family was saying the truth, they wouldn't stop and they wouldn't say Justice was done! They would be saying "This is just the beginning, not the end" kind of things. Michael loves his family and his family loves him too. So, that is not an option. The only explanation is, this is a hoax and Michael is pulling the strings.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 13, 2011, 03:30:28 PM
It'a a waste of energy.
If you wouldn't be allowed to have sex for 6 weeks you would be entitled to SHOUT.
Until then, I want some peace and quiet /white flag/.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 13, 2011, 03:45:43 PM
[...]No thank you. I've had it on this forum.
If you want to discuss the possibility that Murray=MJ, open a new thread please.
[...]
This is the second time it happens to me here.
I won't be here for the 3rd time!
What I learned from the "moderators" of this forum:
1. Someone opens a topic about a subject that the admin/moderator doesn't agree with.
Decision: shuts it down.
2. Someone discusses about a subject that the admin/moderator doesn't agree with, but masks his/her subjectivity under the excuse: "off-topic" and suggests the user to open another topic. Why? to have the same faith as the 1st one ? ^^
3. The user is confused and disappointed.
4. The user leaves the forum.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 13, 2011, 03:48:33 PM
There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility?
Your question has a good point and gave me a brainstorm. Here is what IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND:
if Michael IS DEAD, how family is OK with INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, GROSS NEGLIGENCE up to 4 years in prison ONLY Bull Shit verdict, whereas they have been shouting since day one that MICHAEL WAS KILLED and CM IS a FALL GUY?
Is there going to be or is happening currently investigation to find REAL ASSASSINS? How / WHY family is OK with this verdict and accepts that "JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE". Because to me JASTICE HAS NOT BEEN DONE whatsoever.
This said, Michael is dead/killed is NOT possibility for me or family does not care anymore or does not love Michael enough.
Is this possible?
Exactly Scorpion. They were screaming around that Murray is just a fall guy but there are people behind this. And after the guilty verdict, the family looks so relieved and they say the justice was served. What about the people behind Murray then? What about the ones who were after this "murder"? They forgot about them all. IF what the family was saying the truth, they wouldn't stop and they wouldn't say Justice was done! They would be saying "This is just the beginning, not the end" kind of things. Michael loves his family and his family loves him too. So, that is not an option. The only explanation is, this is a hoax and Michael is pulling the strings.
In addition, Jermain said "this is it, but this is NOT really it, there is much mcuh more to come.......". To me if Michael is dead then he WAS KILLED, that is, family MUST NOT be OK with this verdict. If they are OK, then Michael IS ALIVE version only would explain this.
BUT, on the other hand, IT IS also POSSIBLE if family is OK with this BS verdict, that means Michael does not want to be back at all and family does not want to dig too much to reveal a hoax. In this scenario also the FACT remains to be that Michael SHOUDL BE ALIVE since family "looks satisfied".
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 13, 2011, 03:49:47 PM
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 03:56:52 PM
There are several theories, there are several possibilities. The question is, how are we going to eliminate the ones which are not possible? How are we going to know which one is not a possibility?
Your question has a good point and gave me a brainstorm. Here is what IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND:
if Michael IS DEAD, how family is OK with INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, GROSS NEGLIGENCE up to 4 years in prison ONLY Bull Shit verdict, whereas they have been shouting since day one that MICHAEL WAS KILLED and CM IS a FALL GUY?
Is there going to be or is happening currently investigation to find REAL ASSASSINS? How / WHY family is OK with this verdict and accepts that "JUSTICE HAS BEEN DONE". Because to me JASTICE HAS NOT BEEN DONE whatsoever.
This said, Michael is dead/killed is NOT possibility for me or family does not care anymore or does not love Michael enough.
Is this possible?
Exactly Scorpion. They were screaming around that Murray is just a fall guy but there are people behind this. And after the guilty verdict, the family looks so relieved and they say the justice was served. What about the people behind Murray then? What about the ones who were after this "murder"? They forgot about them all. IF what the family was saying the truth, they wouldn't stop and they wouldn't say Justice was done! They would be saying "This is just the beginning, not the end" kind of things. Michael loves his family and his family loves him too. So, that is not an option. The only explanation is, this is a hoax and Michael is pulling the strings.
In addition, Jermain said "this is it, but this is NOT really it, there is much mcuh more to come.......". To me if Michael is dead then he WAS KILLED, that is, family MUST NOT be OK with this verdict. If they are OK, then Michael IS ALIVE version only would explain this.
BUT, on the other hand, IT IS also POSSIBLE if family is OK with this BS verdict, that means Michael does not want to be back at all and family does not want to dig too much to reveal a hoax. In this scenario also the FACT remains to be that Michael SHOUDL BE ALIVE since family "looks satisfied".
YES, exactly! :mrgreen: I do believe he will be coming back tho. He wants to SHOCK the WORLD! With his "sudden death" he shocked the ones who love him so much. The haters are so happy with his "death". Coming BACK from death will be SHOCKING the ENTIRE world! Everyone, including the haters and evil people! He wants to do the thing that was never ever done before. Michael likes to be the one who creates things and does it for the FIRST time! A fake death with a Resurrection was never ever done before by a big celebrity. Can you imagine what the world would be like when they hear Michael is alive? That is going to be HUGE which fits perfectly with the KING! :mrgreen:
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 13, 2011, 04:03:40 PM
[...]No thank you. I've had it on this forum.
If you want to discuss the possibility that Murray=MJ, open a new thread please.
[...]
This is the second time it happens to me here.
I won't be here for the 3rd time!
What I learned from the "moderators" of this forum:
1. Someone opens a topic about a subject that the admin/moderator doesn't agree with.
Decision: shuts it down.
2. Someone discusses about a subject that the admin/moderator doesn't agree with, but masks his/her subjectivity under the excuse: "off-topic" and suggests the user to open another topic. Why? to have the same faith as the 1st one ? ^^
3. The user is confused and disappointed.
4. The user leaves the forum.
Oh of course! Now I was the only one with this opinion. Whatever, leave if you want please. Make sure you close the door please.
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 13, 2011, 04:05:28 PM
Post by: pepper on November 13, 2011, 04:15:52 PM
The Star Maps Lady says she saw the ambulance go into Carolwood at "a quarter to 12:00".
So how did she see this happen at a quarter to 12:00 IF the ambulance was not even called until 12:21?
Link to video - her comment about time of ambulance is around :38
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/showbiz/2011/09/28/michael-jackson-star-maps.cnn
I know Bec said to read the comments and I did but didn't see an answer to my question. Maybe I did miss it, or maybe it's not important, but I wondered if ANYONE ever said they SAW the ambulance GO into Carolwood?
Sign lady, fans, paps?
Because if they did then if we choose to believe they are not actors, but DID see it go in there that day, it would be helpful in the ambulance theories.
If no one around there saw it, then maybe it wasn't GOING INTO Carolwood, maybe it was already there, or maybe it was there another day or on a set. But, if it WAS seen!! Really, ambulances come with sirens ON, so sign lady would've heard it...prob. ran there to see what's up. There are also paps who listen to police band radios, and know Michael's address and would've followed it. NO one saw it GO in there?
What about private citizens who listen to police scanners? No one has come forward saying they heard the call into 911??
Nice question Ford. I must have missed your post. Yeah, NEVER heard of someone who saw the ambulance going into Carolwood! BUT wouldn't that create suspicion IF the ambulance was already there and didn't arrive and get into the mansion? I think Michael wanted it all to be as real as it could be. So imo the ambulance arrived on the 25th and it wasn't inside the mansion already. But still very nice thought! And it could be inside already like you said.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 04:18:05 PM
maybe they used a sheet in the helicopter instead of a bodybag , to know for sure nobody can take a quick peak, it takes some time to untie the knot , more time then a zipper, maybe thats the reason they choose for a a knotted sheet. So the dummy is certainly a good possibillity imo. and therefor the paramedics who brought the "body/Dummy"to the helicopter they are not in the hoax. And for the UCLA Docs, they didn't gave there statement that Michael "died"Jermaine did that instead of them, so they havent lied, and i think docs are not permitted to speak about there patients,so they can be in the hoax.
There was a sheet on the body already before they put it inside the helicopter. They never used a bodybag. The question is IF what they brought in was a real corpse, why did they change it and brought a surfboard out of the helicopter?
The only explanation comes to my mind is; There was no corpse at all. It was Michael himself or someone else who was alive and they changed and put a surfboard instead of the person. Do we know where the helicopter went after they took off the body? Maybe Michael stayed in it and flew somewhere else with it.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 04:34:08 PM
YES! In answer to the question (below)
The Star Maps Lady says she saw the ambulance go into Carolwood at "a quarter to 12:00".
So how did she see this happen at a quarter to 12:00 IF the ambulance was not even called until 12:21?
Link to video - her comment about time of ambulance is around :38
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/showbiz/2011/09/28/michael-jackson-star-maps.cnnI know Bec said to read the comments and I did but didn't see an answer to my question. Maybe I did miss it, or maybe it's not important, but I wondered if ANYONE ever said they SAW the ambulance GO into Carolwood?
Sign lady, fans, paps?
Because if they did then if we choose to believe they are not actors, but DID see it go in there that day, it would be helpful in the ambulance theories.
If no one around there saw it, then maybe it wasn't GOING INTO Carolwood, maybe it was already there, or maybe it was there another day or on a set. But, if it WAS seen!! Really, ambulances come with sirens ON, so sign lady would've heard it...prob. ran there to see what's up. There are also paps who listen to police band radios, and know Michael's address and would've followed it. NO one saw it GO in there?
What about private citizens who listen to police scanners? No one has come forward saying they heard the call into 911??
Nice question Ford. I must have missed your post. Yeah, NEVER heard of someone who saw the ambulance going into Carolwood! BUT wouldn't that create suspicion IF the ambulance was already there and didn't arrive and get into the mansion? I think Michael wanted it all to be as real as it could be. So imo the ambulance arrived on the 25th and it wasn't inside the mansion already. But still very nice thought! And it could be inside already like you said.
Thank you so so much for this video. I realized something else in the video. The reporter says:
6 months after Jackson moved in and 3 weeks before he started his concert series ..." Look at the numbers! 3 and 6 which is 3 six >>> 6 6 6 Now don't tell me this is not another numerology clue about illuminati.
And yes, she says she saw the ambulance getting in. Probably she just confused the time.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 04:46:17 PM
/bravo/ to both of you. Perfect scenario if you ask me. I agree with all you wrote. BUT we shouldn't forget about the body change inside the helicopter. A normal body shape was brought into the helicopter but a flat surfboard looking thing was brought out of the helicopter. And the security belts was not on the body no more when they were taking it out. IF that was the donated corpse inside the helicopter, why did they change it with a surfboard?
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2152/40111147712180218010577.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/40111147712180218010577.jpg/)
maybe they used a sheet in the helicopter instead of a bodybag , to know for sure nobody can take a quick peak, it takes some time to untie the knot , more time then a zipper, maybe thats the reason they choose for a a knotted sheet. So the dummy is certainly a good possibillity imo. and therefor the paramedics who brought the "body/Dummy"to the helicopter they are not in the hoax. And for the UCLA Docs, they didn't gave there statement that Michael "died"Jermaine did that instead of them, so they havent lied, and i think docs are not permitted to speak about there patients,so they can be in the hoax.
There was a sheet on the body already before they put it inside the helicopter. They never used a bodybag. The question is IF what they brought in was a real corpse, why did they change it and brought a surfboard out of the helicopter?
The only explanation comes to my mind is; There was no corpse at all. It was Michael himself or someone else who was alive and they changed and put a surfboard instead of the person. Do we know where the helicopter went after they took off the body? Maybe Michael stayed in it and flew somewhere else with it.
It's not flat
First let me start by saying what I've said in my last 3 or 4 posts....
Video / Pictures can be manipulated!
A still picture taken at various angles will yield different depth dimensions.
It's an optical illusion. :shock:
I think this is simply an instance like the ambulance video at Carolwood where in this case, the still pictures are being misconstrued as two seperate entities.
Inside the helicopter there is already an empty gurney (as seen in the still picture) (ignore this!) This is standard equipment on a rescue helicopter and is confusing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo
If you watch the video (the continuous uncut version), the body is unstrapped while still in the helicopter and then the body is transported to the waiting coroners gurney. Starts at (4:52).
The body appears to be flat because the straps are not outlining the indentation of the body anymore and the sheet has been re-adjusted over the top. You can still see the outline of the feet wrapped in the sheet.
A still photo from the side angle you see shape, but from overhead it appears flat.
The still pictures give the impression that there is no body when there is. :roll:
I think this same trick was also utilized in the autopsy photo. When a picture is shot from overhead (more vertical presentation) objects appear more inanimate/two dimensional/lifeless.
I hoped that helped...not sure if that was the conclusion on the threads debunking it. :?
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 13, 2011, 05:01:17 PM
maybe they used a sheet in the helicopter instead of a bodybag , to know for sure nobody can take a quick peak, it takes some time to untie the knot , more time then a zipper, maybe thats the reason they choose for a a knotted sheet. So the dummy is certainly a good possibillity imo. and therefor the paramedics who brought the "body/Dummy"to the helicopter they are not in the hoax. And for the UCLA Docs, they didn't gave there statement that Michael "died"Jermaine did that instead of them, so they havent lied, and i think docs are not permitted to speak about there patients,so they can be in the hoax.
Yes i know that Pure, that the sheet was there before the Helicopter already, but the dummy could be used before that tho? ( from the UCLA to the "coroner") they could have storaged the dummy at a locked or sealed closet or a room there noone permitted to go.
Love Always
There was a sheet on the body already before they put it inside the helicopter. They never used a bodybag. The question is IF what they brought in was a real corpse, why did they change it and brought a surfboard out of the helicopter?
The only explanation comes to my mind is; There was no corpse at all. It was Michael himself or someone else who was alive and they changed and put a surfboard instead of the person. Do we know where the helicopter went after they took off the body? Maybe Michael stayed in it and flew somewhere else with it.
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 05:12:27 PM
/bravo/ to both of you. Perfect scenario if you ask me. I agree with all you wrote. BUT we shouldn't forget about the body change inside the helicopter. A normal body shape was brought into the helicopter but a flat surfboard looking thing was brought out of the helicopter. And the security belts was not on the body no more when they were taking it out. IF that was the donated corpse inside the helicopter, why did they change it with a surfboard?
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2152/40111147712180218010577.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/40111147712180218010577.jpg/)maybe they used a sheet in the helicopter instead of a bodybag , to know for sure nobody can take a quick peak, it takes some time to untie the knot , more time then a zipper, maybe thats the reason they choose for a a knotted sheet. So the dummy is certainly a good possibillity imo. and therefor the paramedics who brought the "body/Dummy"to the helicopter they are not in the hoax. And for the UCLA Docs, they didn't gave there statement that Michael "died"Jermaine did that instead of them, so they havent lied, and i think docs are not permitted to speak about there patients,so they can be in the hoax.
There was a sheet on the body already before they put it inside the helicopter. They never used a bodybag. The question is IF what they brought in was a real corpse, why did they change it and brought a surfboard out of the helicopter?
The only explanation comes to my mind is; There was no corpse at all. It was Michael himself or someone else who was alive and they changed and put a surfboard instead of the person. Do we know where the helicopter went after they took off the body? Maybe Michael stayed in it and flew somewhere else with it.
It's not flat
First let me start by saying what I've said in my last 3 or 4 posts....
Video / Pictures can be manipulated!
A still picture taken at various angles will yield different depth dimensions.
It's an optical illusion. :shock:
I think this is simply an instance like the ambulance video at Carolwood where in this case, the still pictures are being misconstrued as two seperate entities.
Inside the helicopter there is already an empty gurney (as seen in the still picture) (ignore this!) This is standard equipment on a rescue helicopter and is confusing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo
If you watch the video (the continuous uncut version), the body is unstrapped while still in the helicopter and then the body is transported to the waiting coroners gurney. Starts at (4:52).
The body appears to be flat because the straps are not outlining the indentation of the body anymore and the sheet has been re-adjusted over the top. You can still see the outline of the feet wrapped in the sheet.
A still photo from the side angle you see shape, but from overhead it appears flat.
The still pictures give the impression that there is no body when there is. :roll:
I think this same trick was also utilized in the autopsy photo. When a picture is shot from overhead (more vertical presentation) objects appear more inanimate/two dimensional/lifeless.
I hoped that helped...not sure if that was the conclusion on the threads debunking it. :?
I have to disagree that the body shape looks totally different to me before it was loaded into the helicopter and after it was taken down. There was a video of them loading the body and taking it out of the helicopter, so we're not talking about still pictures here. And also remember the footage where the body moved inside the helicopter? Sorry I don't have the link to the video.
Post by: Adi on November 13, 2011, 05:39:54 PM
If an ambulance really went to Carolwood Drive on Thursday 25th June 2009...how does this fit in with ALL those garbage bins lining the street outside the house which we see in the various videos posted on this thread from Hollywood TV/Ben E./Tour Bus ?
Wasn't it discovered long ago that garbage was collected on Wednesday's in this area?
Post by: paula-c on November 13, 2011, 06:07:27 PM
Photo of Murray out of the hospital, ..the June 25?
And all these people where they are?
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/murray11.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3578/3662978575_642da96d10.jpg)
(http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Jackson%20Family%20Arriving%20UCLA%20Medical%20Center%20m8AvzaBwwdfl.jpg)
(http://www.jackopedia.com/wiki/images/1/17/Reporter_and_Crowd_outside_UCLA_-_MJ_Death.jpg)
That first image of Murray - I remember watching that video footage of him outside UCLA and it looked totally fake to me. His body was in the exact same position the whole time, he just got a bit bigger as he kept allegedly walking. I realize some security footage just captures stills and puts them together but it didn't look like Murray moved at all. The footage looked doctored (lol) with Murray's one image being moved forward over and over again. I tried finding this footage but I haven't seen it since that day in the trial.
What if Murray used the back door of the hospital and all these people were in front of the hospital and not in the back side of it?
That day there were lots of people at the hospital, any person could this video of Murray out of the hospital is another day not the day June 25
Post by: paula-c on November 13, 2011, 06:17:16 PM
Snoopy: in your scenario, why do you need a donated body simply for the helicopter scene? Since it was simply a body shape wrapped in a sheet, couldn't this "corpse" simply be a dummy or even a live person playing dead? What's the benefit of using a real corpse for this portion? What's the detriment? A real body may leak bodily fluids. A sheet would not protect surfaces or hands from coming in contact with these fluids. It's messy. What desired benefit of using a real body would be worth risking this mess for hoax purposes? Why bother using a real body for just this portion (as you have outlined)?
@Grace: I don't think 28 months of investigation is "rushing" to believe at all. On the contrary, I think this is a very methodical and organized rational approach to believing.
@Souza, thanks for reposting those stills of the red car and thereby re-proving that the ambulance pic was staged, for all those who missed that.
Again, please, @anyone who wants to participate in the conversation, go back and read all the previous levels so we can move forward as a team, and not be distracted and held back by those unfamiliar with the information.
Also, please stay on topic as much as possible. SimPattyK, as fun as your montages are, the one you posted on Murray/Michael is very off topic and due to the size of the file, quite distracting to the conversation, requiring significant scrolling to get past it. Please refrain from posting your montages here unless they are on topic.
Unless anyone else wants to weigh in, I feel as though we have collectively settled on the most logical chain of events on 6/25/09 @Carrolwood is that one ambulance arrived, and then departed en-route to UCLA in live time as was depicted on the video taken by Ben's crew. All popular alternative ambulance theories offered here have been successfully and unequivocally debunked.
If you disagree with my statement, please, weigh in and be heard, so we can continuing making progress.
In truth using a corpse was much risk, simply because human beings are curious by nature, and was not 'any dead " was MJ, ..and at the hospital, the helicopter or at the forensic at any given could occur lift the savannah to look at.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 13, 2011, 06:21:50 PM
As for what we know already, it does seem we have collectively come up with the most plausible theory that includes three basic things that were asked of us: simplicity, necessity and logic. So, I agree with Bec, Souza and Andrea aswell as other's.
As for the ambulance not being seen going in, I would find that more suspicious if it was on camera, just because it would mean a camera man was waiting for the arrival indicating advanced knowledge of the situation. Many celebs have had emergency situation's and by the time the media frenzy arrives, the ambulance etc., is already there.
I also don't think it matter's whether or not the ambulance was MJ's because it doesn't make a difference regarding the day(s) everything happened. As Gina stated, it doesn't seem necessary to use his own ambulance given the fact that LAFD was in on it, so why not use the real thing?
The "body" was most likely a dummy or MJ himself; I'm not sure why a real corpse would be needed yet. I also don't think we have enough info on what, if anything, went into the ambulance that day.
Post by: Adi on November 13, 2011, 06:53:32 PM
Adi, good point I do remember that; now I'm not so sure about our theory lol. Anyone?
As for what we know already, it does seem we have collectively come up with the most plausible theory that includes three basic things that were asked of us: simplicity, necessity and logic. So, I agree with Bec, Souza and Andrea aswell as other's.
Some people are making things way more complicated than need be, BUT with the point that Adi made, that theory would change. Unless ofcourse, for whatever reason they didn't collect the garbage can's? We need to verify that information before we can move on.
As for the ambulance not being seen going in, I would find that more suspicious if it was on camera, just because it would mean a camera man was waiting for the arrival indicating advanced knowledge of the situation. Many celebs have had emergency situation's and by the time the media frenzy arrives, the ambulance etc., is already there.
I also don't think it matter's whether or not the ambulance was MJ's because it doesn't make a difference regarding the day(s) everything happened. As Gina stated, it doesn't seem necessary to use his own ambulance given the fact that LAFD was in on it, so why not use the real thing?
The "body" was most likely a dummy or MJ himself; I'm not sure why a real corpse would be needed. I also don't think we have enough info on what, if anything, went into the ambulance that day.
Remember though, the dummy would just be a prop for media display (helicopter ride etc.), and ofcourse the autopsy isn't real nor is the "we worked on (a dummy) for 2hrs"; if in fact, it was a dummy.
Thanks. It was a point I remembered whilst reading everyone's posts here today.
It could be as simple an explanation like MJ purposely wanted the garbage bins left out on the street on 25th June to either:
1. make a subliminal message that what we were witnessing was all garbage
2. confuse us hoaxers later on lol
or
it was actually filmed another day....... I can't help but keep thinking of why was the date of the wrapping of filming the Dome Project of June 9th purposely brought to our attention by the Jury putting the wrong "death" date on their Forms which Judge Pastor read out on Verdict day?
I know 9 June 2009 is 3 months before 9/9/9 and all the relevant numerology, but was there another reason for 9 June being raised....why did they "mistakenly" put THE date when the Dome project finished?..why not 1 June or 23rd June or any other date???? ......
Sorry - I am thinking out loud here and typing as I think. I have to think about this more :)
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 07:03:33 PM
I have to disagree that the body shape looks totally different to me before it was loaded into the helicopter and after it was taken down. There was a video of them loading the body and taking it out of the helicopter, so we're not talking about still pictures here. And also remember the footage where the body moved inside the helicopter? Sorry I don't have the link to the video.
The body shifted in the helicopter because the straps were removed. A body firmly strapped to a gurney would not be able to move/roll ----> therefore the straps were being removed/adjusted (which created the "movement")
Okay, let me approach this from another angle... :?
What is it that is really weird about this whole helicopter scenario? The white sheets right?!
Also one minute there appears to be a body, then the next there doesn't (flat board).
I think we ALL agree, there is a body going into the helicopter yes? :shock:
We've discussed this numerous times, Why wasn't Michael put into a body bag if he was really dead?
Why the white sheets?....the autopsy picture!
The body in the autopsy picture is wrapped in white sheets.
The two events had to match visually to be believed it happend the same day; the helicopter transport and the autopsy picture.
.....Back to the flat coroners gurney...Can anyone answer me this...
Why go through the motions of air lifting a body, if they weren't going to follow through to completion?
(The news copters were filming live, why would they risk not putting a body onto the Coroner gurney?)
If the body was a dummy, cadaver, inflatible doll, or even Michael himself "playing dead", why wouldn't they put him(it) in the van?
Why would the body transport stop at the helicopter and not continue onto the van? :?
There is only ONE explanation I could come up with for this... Michael was "played dead" being loaded onto the helicopter and stayed hidden on the helicopter and was taken to the airport after, any other reason wouldn't make any sense.
....Personally, I don't believe this scenario, but if there is another way to explain your "flat board" theory I'm all ears. I still believe a body went on that van.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 13, 2011, 07:04:37 PM
Or as you said, the Dome Project could have been this scenario, I just find it becomes much more complicated.
@Snoopy, given the date on the autopsy photo, if Michael did make the trip "playing dead" that day, then the reference to the 'coroner van' video is that it was real. Probably filmed and released on purpose to make people question. I dont know if anyone noticed, whilst watching the coroner van driving into the garage that day, there was someone dressed in black that runs in right after; as if they were waiting to capture that moment. Basically, probably the same person who filmed it, and the date on the autopsy pic is confirming Michael did indeed take the trip that day to the coroner's office and jump out of the van.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 13, 2011, 07:15:27 PM
Adi, good point I do remember that; now I'm not so sure about our theory lol. Anyone?
As for what we know already, it does seem we have collectively come up with the most plausible theory that includes three basic things that were asked of us: simplicity, necessity and logic. So, I agree with Bec, Souza and Andrea aswell as other's.
Some people are making things way more complicated than need be, BUT with the point that Adi made, that theory would change. Unless ofcourse, for whatever reason they didn't collect the garbage can's? We need to verify that information before we can move on.
As for the ambulance not being seen going in, I would find that more suspicious if it was on camera, just because it would mean a camera man was waiting for the arrival indicating advanced knowledge of the situation. Many celebs have had emergency situation's and by the time the media frenzy arrives, the ambulance etc., is already there.
I also don't think it matter's whether or not the ambulance was MJ's because it doesn't make a difference regarding the day(s) everything happened. As Gina stated, it doesn't seem necessary to use his own ambulance given the fact that LAFD was in on it, so why not use the real thing?
The "body" was most likely a dummy or MJ himself; I'm not sure why a real corpse would be needed. I also don't think we have enough info on what, if anything, went into the ambulance that day.
Remember though, the dummy would just be a prop for media display (helicopter ride etc.), and ofcourse the autopsy isn't real nor is the "we worked on (a dummy) for 2hrs"; if in fact, it was a dummy.
But your forgetting about the Lady from Star Maps..she is camped outside of MJ's entrance everyday..She saw the ambulance arrive..........BUT, she claims it arrived at 11:45 am !!! There is a topic on this already started, and then we have all the people on the starline tour bus....These people cant all be lying about what they saw....
Linda claims she had a photographer friend there, while she was waiting to see what happenned....this is the link....
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xldcoo_jackson-s-spot-on-hollywood-s-map_lifestyle
Post by: Suzy7 on November 13, 2011, 07:21:52 PM
Either way, I think there is one coherent theory here and if not, TS can intervene lol.
Post by: paula-c on November 13, 2011, 07:27:44 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 07:32:58 PM
Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.
The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 07:33:51 PM
No street in Beverly Hills has their garbage out front, it's too hoity-toity for that. You will literally not see any garage cans out front of any Beverly Hills address, they get picked up in the back. I knew that before but it was also confirmed for me when I took the TMZ bus tour back in June.
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 07:36:29 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 07:37:38 PM
Snoopy - it looks like the guy picked up the "body" with one hand...
Okay, so I wasn't imagining it! :shock:
omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg WTF??
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 07:41:22 PM
Snoopy - it looks like the guy picked up the "body" with one hand...
Okay, so I wasn't imagining it! :shock:
He did it with relative ease too...
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 07:44:19 PM
Snoopy - it looks like the guy picked up the "body" with one hand...
Okay, so I wasn't imagining it! :shock:
He did it with relative ease too...
The round part looked like a head right?....it was so stiff...but light weight....OMG, I think we might have the body question answered. /woohoo/
Post by: Suzy7 on November 13, 2011, 07:48:32 PM
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 07:52:09 PM
@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
What could it be? It was bundled very tight....
Alrighty....
The body:
Dummy/Manneguin? :?
Or was the helicopter/van transport a diversion? :roll:
.....back to the beginning typing/
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 07:59:50 PM
@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 08:04:12 PM
@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
Not to sound funny....but it almost looks like one of those blowup dolls wrapped in sheets. I would say maybe a CPR doll, but even those have a little weight to them....
....what's really disturbing is they are handling it like a piece of meat! :shock:
Post by: sandythyme on November 13, 2011, 08:05:20 PM
Post by: ilovemjforever on November 13, 2011, 08:16:43 PM
What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 08:16:50 PM
Good eye Snoopy! Unbelieveable! Good Find!
It wasn't cause of me....pure dumb luck! :lol:
I was looking at it trying to help PureLove figure out the "flat gurney" issue.
I just happened to glance up at the exact moment and saw that.
Post by: Vietnow on November 13, 2011, 08:27:00 PM
What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
I agree with all of the above. The guy definitely lifts it very easily. What would be the purpose of lifting the body anyway? If it were a real scenario, wouldn't it strapped to the stretcher in the first place?
EDIT - Actually, if you skip to about 40 seconds into the video it looks like he lifts it with both hands and onto another stretcher.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 13, 2011, 08:28:39 PM
Which is why I think it did happen that day, rather than another. All of those random people can't be in on it. Maybe it arrived earlier, but they waited to make everything happen later to fit the numerology.
Either way, I think there is one coherent theory here and if not, TS can intervene lol.
I agree....I'm all for the general consensus...it makes more 'sense' to me that it did happen that day (i.e. that an ambu was at Carolwood on June 25th). But now I'm thinking maybe we're missing something (and I can't figure out what?). There's been a LOT of good points supporting the 'theory' in this thread alone....but TS hasn't 'chirped' in.
It could just mean that he's been busy and hasn't been able to visit the forum....it could mean that the 'timing' of level 7b is predetermined (and no matter how 'right' we are, 7b won't come any sooner)....OR maybe we're missing something and until we 'find' it, we can't proceed.
I'm hoping it's either option 1 or 2....cause if it's the 3rd, we might have to 'rethink' the whole thing (and I don't know if my brain can handle fighting what seems so 'logical' to me :?).
As for the 'body'...we know Mike 'ain't scared of no sheets'...so he might be under some :lol: (and a big part of me can totally see Mike wanting to take that copter ride!). It may be way off...but maybe not so much when it's Mike we're talking about (I'm thinking he's had a FRONT-row seat throughout this whole thing---maybe that's why the family sat in the second row for the whole trial---Mike likes his space :lol:).
@Snoopy...good catch and great posts overall! Maybe what went into the helicopter wasn't what came out afraid/ (it feels like ages since I last 'studied' that helicopter video...guess we got to go BACK) . I'm gonna go have another look (or 7 lol) at the 'debunked' coroner van video. Think we might be missing something else there as well.
@TS, if it is option 3 and the general consensus is way off....could you at least 'debunk' a couple 'points' that have been made that support an ambu at Carolwood on June 25th? It would be much appreciated.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 08:31:14 PM
What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
So what does this mean?
Clearly it was a dummy/doll/whatever fake body thingy.....
Does this mean the helicopter transport was a decoy?
Did Michael stay on the helicopter? (was that him being unstrapped mid flight?)
....sigh....more questions than answers...
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 13, 2011, 08:40:54 PM
How about this....
There would have to be an ambulance on June 25th at Carolwood to UCLA....why? because Murray was in the ambulance at Carolwood right, and how would Murray end up at UCLA...(as we see that pic of MJ being rushed into UCLA on the gurney with Conrad there with trackies on) did he get out of the ambo and find his own way there, no it seems illogical, so that means there was only one ambo that day.
Also it could prove the ambo pic was photo-shopped before because we don't see Conrad Murray in it.
Quote
Dr. Conrad Murray called his lover on the way to hospital with Michael Jackson.
Nicole Alvez - the mother of the physician's youngest son - told Los Angeles Superior Court today (04.10.11) that the doctor called her at around 1pm on 25 June 2009 and told her they were in an ambulance with the singer after he had been discovered unconscious at home.
She said: "I remember him telling me that he was on the way to the hospital in the ambulance with Mr. Jackson, and for me not to be alarmed."
Read more: http://au.askmen.com/celebs/entertainment-news/michael-jackson/conrad-murray-made-call-in-ambulance.html#ixzz1ddx6Dg2E
So this would mean Murray was in the ambo, I don't know if he was in the back with MJ, I can't remember, but the fact he was, could prove there was an ambo that DID go to UCLA that day and that it was the same ambo.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 13, 2011, 08:49:36 PM
My head is gonna explode cause now I'm second guessing what seems 'logical' to me /scream/
With L.O.V.E. always.
EDITED to add: I've been re-looking at the vid Snoopy posted. The guy in the van most definitely lifts 'something'. But to me it looks like he's using both hands...and it was a 'heave ho' lift (i.e. it looks like it could be a 'body' (either dead or alive).
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 08:53:16 PM
What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
I agree with all of the above. The guy definitely lifts it very easily. What would be the purpose of lifting the body anyway? If it were a real scenario, wouldn't it strapped to the stretcher in the first place?
EDIT - Actually, if you skip to about 40 seconds into the video it looks like he lifts it with both hands and onto another stretcher.
You're right....they keep looping the video...it happens @ :51, 4:40, 5:40, and 8:17.
Time the head back to the archives and revisit the old helicopter threads. How did this slip through?
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 08:57:10 PM
We have 'pics' of Murray walking into UCLA and we have video of him walking out of UCLA. But did we SEE Murray at Carolwood on June 25th getting into an ambulance (there may be a video clip of it...and maybe I just missed it). And I wouldn't put much 'stock' into anything Nicole Alvarez said.
My head is gonna explode cause now I'm second guessing what seems 'logical' to me /scream/
With L.O.V.E. always.
EDITED to add: I've been re-looking at the vid Snoopy posted. The guy in the van most definitely lifts 'something'. But to me it looks like he's using both hands...and it was a 'heave ho' lift (i.e. it looks like it could be a 'body' (either dead or alive).
Did you happen to notice too how many people got out of the van after the body was loaded?
How big is that van??? :shock: :?
Maybe there was someone at the feet (deeper in the van) helping to lift, but still....that body looked awfully stiff for being "freshly deceased". suspicious//
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 13, 2011, 09:13:24 PM
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 09:14:33 PM
Snoopy: in your scenario, why do you need a donated body simply for the helicopter scene? Since it was simply a body shape wrapped in a sheet, couldn't this "corpse" simply be a dummy or even a live person playing dead? What's the benefit of using a real corpse for this portion? What's the detriment? A real body may leak bodily fluids. A sheet would not protect surfaces or hands from coming in contact with these fluids. It's messy. What desired benefit of using a real body would be worth risking this mess for hoax purposes? Why bother using a real body for just this portion (as you have outlined)?
I was hoping you'd ask me that. :mrgreen:
"Dummy vs Cadaver"
Dummy Scenario:
-Prop dummy was stored at UCLA(Unlikely, where would it be stored? risk of discovery)
-Prop dummy stored offsite and brought to UCLA(risk of discovery in transport/raise suspicion)
- Prop dummy was stored at Carolwood (possible; could be used as prop if Michael were not present)
Let's assume they did use a dummy(replica of Michael)
Pros:
- Michael would not need to be present for ambulance drama
- Could be used for autopsy photos
- frame of reference for Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount
- a body to transport to UCLA
- frame of reference for UCLA personnel
- a body to transport to Coroners office
Cons:
- acquisition (someone has to create it without raising suspicion)
- disposal (where does it go after the coroners office/who gets rid of it/who stores it?)
- risk factor (handling a lifesize dummy requires manpower, time and storage)
The main logistical problem with using a dummy is STORAGE. (What do you do with the dummy?)
The risk factor is higher that the plot would be revealed or raise suspicion upon discovery of a dummy. Disposal and storage methods are time intensive with regards to handling at the Coroners office and require additional personnel.
Donated body/Cadaver Scenario:
- UCLA is a teaching hospital; bodies/cadavers are routinely donated (no one needed to die that day)
- A donated body/cadaver is kept in storage on premises (UCLA personnel would have access)
- A donated body/cadaver can be transported between the coroners and the hospital without raising suspicion.
The donated body/cadaver scenario offers the least amount of risk in discovery. The body/cadaver could be moved freely throughout the hospital without raising suspicion.
A donated body/cadaver offers two things:
1) a body for the media to see being transported (helicopter/van)
2) a body that can be returned back to UCLA from the Coroners and be re-stored for use.
The reason I favor the Donated body/Cadaver scenario is the limitation of RISK.
For the purposes of 911 call/Carolwood, a body was not needed.(dummy or otherwise)
Dr. Murray, Alvarez, Senneff, Blount could all have been using Michael himself as the "frame of reference" to enact the scene and then simply strapped him to the gurney and carried him down the stairs into the waiting ambulance (if it was required)---it wouldn't make a difference because the cameras could not see behind the gates.
Once at UCLA, the donated body/cadaver scenario went into play.
The body was already there, the sequence was carried out for the media (helicopter/van transport) to the Coroners and then the body/cadaver was returned to UCLA from the Coroners.
There are no storage issues, no risk of exposure, no raised suspicions. Even with dealing with "potential fluids" from a real body (although an untouched/frozen body could have been used) would far outweight the risks of trying to store/dispose a of dummy.
.....it's just logistically the easier scenario in my opinion.
...boy does that give new meaning to the word "recycling" :lol:
....I tried not to make this too "wordy" :roll:
Snoopy, I rather like that you arrived on the scene. You're really contributing here, I am glad to have you aboard. Great post. But you forget the third option; dummy/cadaver/Live MJ.
Live MJ solves the problem of storage and disposal (lol). Live MJ can disguise or hide and be ushered out of anywhere in a multitude of ways. He's been doing it his whole life, really. No different on 6/25/09 if he had to find someway to leave undetected by public or paps. Who better then MJ to leave a venue unnoticed?
Live MJ solves the problem of fooling the casual glance. If someone were to catch a glimpse of him on the stretcher; either through the Carrolwood gates or going into the ER at UCLA, it really is MJ on the stretcher so there's no problem. Appearances are kept up. Who's to say at quick glance if he's alive or dead?
Live MJ also solves the basic need for MJ to direct and oversee Day Zero, which is so crucial to the 2+ year long project which was to follow.
Live MJ lets us see him sitting up on the stretcher and sitting up in the helicopter.
Live MJ also completes the story with Van Video and coroner photoshoot in one seamless flow.
Using a Live MJ is the simplest scenario that satisfies all of the hoax needs. Live MJ also allows everyone to say it looked like MJ and it was MJ and they worked on MJ, MJ was laying there, etc. Maybe when they gave him the balloon pump they gave it to him and let him play around with it for awhile (ha). They had a couple of hours to kill.
I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.
I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 13, 2011, 09:26:27 PM
:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!
Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.
The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
Yes I saw it too he lifted the body, probably the feet or maybe to help Michael remove the bag over him.. you guys say it may be a dummy maybe not. Remember if Michael is alive he could have helped himself move when the deputy was moving him. I have no clue. It is too fast.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 09:28:17 PM
Snoopy, I rather like that you arrived on the scene. You're really contributing here, I am glad to have you aboard. Great post. But you forget the third option; dummy/cadaver/Live MJ.
Live MJ solves the problem of storage and disposal (lol). Live MJ can disguise or hide and be ushered out of anywhere in a multitude of ways. He's been doing it his whole life, really. No different on 6/25/09 if he had to find someway to leave undetected by public or paps. Who better then MJ to leave a venue unnoticed?
Live MJ solves the problem of fooling the casual glance. If someone were to catch a glimpse of him on the stretcher; either through the Carrolwood gates or going into the ER at UCLA, it really is MJ on the stretcher so there's no problem. Appearances are kept up. Who's to say at quick glance if he's alive or dead?
Live MJ also solves the basic need for MJ to direct and oversee Day Zero, which is so crucial to the 2+ year long project which was to follow.
Live MJ lets us see him sitting up on the stretcher and sitting up in the helicopter.
Live MJ also completes the story with Van Video and coroner photoshoot in one seamless flow.
Using a Live MJ is the simplest scenario that satisfies all of the hoax needs. Live MJ also allows everyone to say it looked like MJ and it was MJ and they worked on MJ, MJ was laying there, etc. Maybe when they gave him the balloon pump they gave it to him and let him play around with it for awhile (ha). They had a couple of hours to kill.
I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.
I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.
Bec,
I would 100% agree with you....that is until about 20 minutes ago.
Now I'm a little shaky on the "live MJ" scenario.
I was debating with PureLove about the body transport to the van. In some instances the body appears "flat", so I reviewed the video taken that day and came across some interesting revelations.
I don't want to prejudice your perspective, so take a look and see what it looks like to you.
The video is looped, but the event occurs at :51, 4:40, 5:40 and 8:17.
Look closely inside the van.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
Post by: simplyme on November 13, 2011, 09:49:39 PM
:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!
Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.
The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is?????
Hi Snoopy...the gurney that Michael was on belonged to the chopper. They removed the body from the gurney that belonged to the chopper and gave it back to the chopper crew.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 10:09:28 PM
Snoopy, I rather like that you arrived on the scene. You're really contributing here, I am glad to have you aboard. Great post. But you forget the third option; dummy/cadaver/Live MJ.
Live MJ solves the problem of storage and disposal (lol). Live MJ can disguise or hide and be ushered out of anywhere in a multitude of ways. He's been doing it his whole life, really. No different on 6/25/09 if he had to find someway to leave undetected by public or paps. Who better then MJ to leave a venue unnoticed?
Live MJ solves the problem of fooling the casual glance. If someone were to catch a glimpse of him on the stretcher; either through the Carrolwood gates or going into the ER at UCLA, it really is MJ on the stretcher so there's no problem. Appearances are kept up. Who's to say at quick glance if he's alive or dead?
Live MJ also solves the basic need for MJ to direct and oversee Day Zero, which is so crucial to the 2+ year long project which was to follow.
Live MJ lets us see him sitting up on the stretcher and sitting up in the helicopter.
Live MJ also completes the story with Van Video and coroner photoshoot in one seamless flow.
Using a Live MJ is the simplest scenario that satisfies all of the hoax needs. Live MJ also allows everyone to say it looked like MJ and it was MJ and they worked on MJ, MJ was laying there, etc. Maybe when they gave him the balloon pump they gave it to him and let him play around with it for awhile (ha). They had a couple of hours to kill.
I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.
I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.
Bec,
I would 100% agree with you....that is until about 20 minutes ago.
Now I'm a little shaky on the "live MJ" scenario.The Cadaver/Donnor bodytheory is out the window for me.
I was debating with PureLove about the body transport to the van. In some instances the body appears "flat", so I reviewed the video taken that day and came across some interesting revelations.
I don't want to prejudice your perspective, so take a look and see what it looks like to you.
The video is looped, but the event occurs at :51, 4:40, 5:40 and 8:17.
Look closely inside the van.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
I've seen it. I did rewatch it again but I have seen it a thousand times, and I'm probably not kidding. This wasn't missed, the topic of the man lifting the "body" in the coroner's van was tossed around at length in 2009 (no pun intended). Keep watching the tape. He uses both hands and he pics the "body" up with the knot of the sheet. He hefts what appears to be the right amount of weight in making the effort. Watch again, and again, and again. It's spot on.
I think it's Live MJ. How fun would that be. I have always loved that theory because it's so much incredible fun even though I didn't think it was very realistic (risk), but now that we have seen trial and know that Dr. Cooper is for sure in on the hoax (tells us she worked on a dead body for over 1 hour and called t.o.d. 2:26), I'm totally fine with this theory being The One. It all fits, start to finish, in perfect lateral progression of Day Zero events.
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 10:15:37 PM
It WAS MJ's body. MJ's LIVE body :lol:
Post by: BeTheChange on November 13, 2011, 10:32:42 PM
If the main point of this level is to 'keep it simple' (as TS advised)...then the ONLY thing that would NEED to be 'different' from the 'no hoax, MJ really died' scenario to the 'hoax, MJ is alive' scenario...is that Mike DID all those things, but he was 'alive' the whole time. Would it be 'risky'? Sure. But faking your death is pretty risky in itself. Was there a NEED to have MJ under those sheets, in the helicopter, and then in the coroner van? I'm sure that's debatable. But maybe MJ 'wanting' to do 'it' all himself, overshadowed any 'need'.
Did any of that make sense? :lol: Holy crap...he may have just done it all himself afraid/....and why not? If a movie is involved in all this...why wouldn't he play himself in it...dead or alive? ;) Of course, we may come to find out he didn't lol....but if there's anyone that could pull that off AND who is enough of a prankster to do it...it would be Mike.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 13, 2011, 10:46:20 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI1CkuuKrBc&feature=related[/youtube]
@12:08 on peoples #52 it shows a phone call made by Conrad to her residence at 1:08, and in that article it did say she got a call around 1pm, and this was when Conrad was in the ambulance....@15:42-16:24 Brazil asks Alverez, 'Was this the time he (Conrad) was in the ambulance'...she recalls that Murray was in the ambulance with Michael Jackson.
Also, I guess another way we can work it out, is to see what time the ambulance arrived at UCLA maybe.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 13, 2011, 10:57:05 PM
IF Mike had 'died' on June 25th....he would've been 'loaded' into the ambulance at Carolwood, wheeled into UCLA on a stretcher, he would've been 'loaded' into the helicopter, and he then would've been 'loaded' into the Coronor's van. At least that's the progression of things that we either saw with our own eyes or were told happened (i.e. we didn't see him being loaded into the ambulance at Carolwood...it's assumed but would be a logical assumption if he had really died on June 25th).
If the main point of this level is to 'keep it simple' (as TS advised)...then the ONLY thing that would NEED to be 'different' from the 'no hoax, MJ really died' scenario to the 'hoax, MJ is alive' scenario...is that Mike DID all those things, but he was 'alive' the whole time. Would it be 'risky'? Sure. But faking your death is pretty risky in itself. Was there a NEED to have MJ under those sheets, in the helicopter, and then in the coroner van? I'm sure that's debatable. But maybe MJ 'wanting' to do 'it' all himself, overshadowed any 'need'.
Did any of that make sense? :lol: Holy crap...he may have just done it all himself afraid/....and why not? If a movie is involved in all this...why wouldn't he play himself in it...dead or alive? ;) Of course, we may come to find out he didn't lol....but if there's anyone that could pull that off AND who is enough of a prankster to do it...it would be Mike.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Maybe some body swapping was going on between live MJ and a dummy. Places we think it was MJ and places with think were the dummy could be true, maybe this was done to confuse or because only certain people knew about it...for example MJ could of been on the gurney at UCLA, so those who were not in the hoax thought it was the real thing, because it could of been too risky to use a dummy....then in the helicopter it was a dummy, because now you have less variables (people) around, those people that carried his body in the helicopter could of been in it or not, but it would of also been to risky to use the live MJ (whether the people in the helicopter knew or not, as this was televised live)...I think that's the perfect way..."fool some of the people that time (live MJ) and when you know you can't fool someone else the same way, you fool them another way (dummy)".
Post by: BeTheChange on November 13, 2011, 11:06:35 PM
Still, I am NOT saying Murray wasn't in the ambulance. IF an ambulance left Carolwood on June 25th (which I believe it did)...then it makes absolute sense that Murray was in it because we see him at UCLA, supposedly arriving with MJ/the 'body'. But we can't 'prove' it by pointing to Alvarez's statement nor the phone records.
Hope that makes sense.
About the live MJ/dummy usage...and alternating between the two. Based on my interpretation of some of TS' posts (can't remember exactly which update but it was about THIS very topic)...I had thought this was the case. That a real-live MJ AND a dummy were used...at different times. Now I'm not so sure anymore lol. I'm sure about a 'live' MJ being used....but now I'm thinking it was for a lot more 'scenes' than I had originally thought.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Andrea on November 13, 2011, 11:14:30 PM
Snoopy, I rather like that you arrived on the scene. You're really contributing here, I am glad to have you aboard. Great post. But you forget the third option; dummy/cadaver/Live MJ.
Live MJ solves the problem of storage and disposal (lol). Live MJ can disguise or hide and be ushered out of anywhere in a multitude of ways. He's been doing it his whole life, really. No different on 6/25/09 if he had to find someway to leave undetected by public or paps. Who better then MJ to leave a venue unnoticed?
Live MJ solves the problem of fooling the casual glance. If someone were to catch a glimpse of him on the stretcher; either through the Carrolwood gates or going into the ER at UCLA, it really is MJ on the stretcher so there's no problem. Appearances are kept up. Who's to say at quick glance if he's alive or dead?
Live MJ also solves the basic need for MJ to direct and oversee Day Zero, which is so crucial to the 2+ year long project which was to follow.
Live MJ lets us see him sitting up on the stretcher and sitting up in the helicopter.
Live MJ also completes the story with Van Video and coroner photoshoot in one seamless flow.
Using a Live MJ is the simplest scenario that satisfies all of the hoax needs. Live MJ also allows everyone to say it looked like MJ and it was MJ and they worked on MJ, MJ was laying there, etc. Maybe when they gave him the balloon pump they gave it to him and let him play around with it for awhile (ha). They had a couple of hours to kill.
I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.
I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.
Bec,
I would 100% agree with you....that is until about 20 minutes ago.
Now I'm a little shaky on the "live MJ" scenario.The Cadaver/Donnor bodytheory is out the window for me.
I was debating with PureLove about the body transport to the van. In some instances the body appears "flat", so I reviewed the video taken that day and came across some interesting revelations.
I don't want to prejudice your perspective, so take a look and see what it looks like to you.
The video is looped, but the event occurs at :51, 4:40, 5:40 and 8:17.
Look closely inside the van.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
I've seen it. I did rewatch it again but I have seen it a thousand times, and I'm probably not kidding. This wasn't missed, the topic of the man lifting the "body" in the coroner's van was tossed around at length in 2009 (no pun intended). Keep watching the tape. He uses both hands and he pics the "body" up with the knot of the sheet. He hefts what appears to be the right amount of weight in making the effort. Watch again, and again, and again. It's spot on.
I think it's Live MJ. How fun would that be. I have always loved that theory because it's so much incredible fun even though I didn't think it was very realistic (risk), but now that we have seen trial and know that Dr. Cooper is for sure in on the hoax (tells us she worked on a dead body for over 1 hour and called t.o.d. 2:26), I'm totally fine with this theory being The One. It all fits, start to finish, in perfect lateral progression of Day Zero events.
Actually, now that I watch that particular scene again (and again and again and again) it looks like the body shifts itself to help the guy moving his body! Especially at the 0:53 mark, if you look lower on the sheet, you can SEE someone underneath moving as well, not just the sheet itself. OMG!!
It's Michael under that sheet, I'm sure of it now. I always liked the scenario that it was him all the way along but now I'm convinced of it. Holy cow!!! This is HUGE for me.
Thank you bec for your insight as it made me watch that part again and see as you do.
Michael was there every step of the way - Carolwood, ambulance, hospital, helicopter, coroner van - then we lost track of him after he jumped out and disappeared behind the door....although I know we've seen him since.
Bring on the next level!
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 11:22:31 PM
Did they have to be so rough....he's not a piece of meat?! :-\
I don't like how this looks at all. :(
So did he get dressed in the van?
What about the autopsy picture is that him too?
So is it really MJ or a dummy or both?
I'm more confused than ever... :P
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 13, 2011, 11:23:38 PM
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 11:27:03 PM
:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!
Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.
The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
:shock: afraid/
This is the first time I saw this! Even if the man was that strong to hold a body with one hand, that would be too disrespectful to behave a corpse like that, no matter who that was. So the body/corpse theory goes with this. The feet part of the body first made me think of a dummy and also how flat it is. Now I'm sure that it wasn't a corpse. Very nice catch Snoopy. /bravo/
Post by: bec on November 13, 2011, 11:28:00 PM
Post by: Suzy7 on November 13, 2011, 11:29:54 PM
From the beginning of the hoax I assumed it was MJ participating the whole time. Who knows, that's really the illusion of June 25. It could have been both, a dummy and MJ as stated above. When I saw the part of the vid Snoopy pointed out, MJ could have been underneath as it kind of looked like he maybe moved.
It would make everything much less complicated if it was a live MJ the whole time or again, atleast part.
So at this point we can all atleast rule out another theory? The "cadaver" and/or even just the, "cancer-stricken double who died that day" theories? Lol
Good idea to whoever thought of finding out the time Murray called the girlfriend that day, to prove the ambulance scenario did play out. If Murray spoke to her around 1 and he was in the ambulance, it took them more than 20/30 mins to arrive at UCLA? Huh? If they reached "MJ's body" in the home at 12:27, why was he still in the ambulance at 1? That's a whole lot of time.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 11:33:24 PM
:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!
Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.
The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
:shock: afraid/
This is the first time I saw this! Even if the man was that strong to hold a body with one hand, that would be too disrespectful to behave a corpse like that, no matter who that was. So the body/corpse theory goes with this. The feet part of the body first made me think of a dummy and also how flat it is. Now I'm sure that it wasn't a corpse. Very nice catch Snoopy. /bravo/
Actually, it's because of you that I saw it! :lol:
I was trying to explain your flat body on the gurney, and saw this. It's not new though. Bec said they went over this a 1,000 times.
Unfortunately it leaves me even more confused. :(
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 11:34:28 PM
What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
So what does this mean?
Clearly it was a dummy/doll/whatever fake body thingy.....
Does this mean the helicopter transport was a decoy?
Did Michael stay on the helicopter? (was that him being unstrapped mid flight?)
....sigh....more questions than answers...
I think it was Michael himself under the sheet getting into the helicopter. And they changed and put a dummy under the sheet. That's what we see in the van moved by that guy with a single hand. Probably MJ used the helicopter to go somewhere else. The van was a good distraction. people and the media were following the van so Michael flew with the helicopter to the destination he wanted.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 13, 2011, 11:40:10 PM
@bethechange, I agree, that's why this is so hard, what do we have to go on either then lies (needles) buried in a haystack (hoax truths)....lol
Or maybe we sometimes just make it 'harder' than it needs to be...or 'harder' than it really is/was. But I agree...the 'truth' has been sprinkled (like gold) among a sea of 'lies' :?
One (potential) problem I can see with a live-MJ being on the helicopter and in the coroner van (although I LOVE that theory)....is the 'factor' of keeping the # of people 'in on it' to a minimum. I think I counted 3 guys that got off the helicopter and three that were in and out of the van, plus the 'drivers' for both (I may be underestimating the #'s...but I'm pretty sure there was at least that many). Would they have to be 'in on it'?
If they're not, then that would mean that MJ would've had to 'play dead' during both 'trips' (unless, of course, the 'debunked' coroner van vid is actually 'real'...in which case, the people in the van (at least) are 'in on it'.
confused/ confused/ confused/
REALLY wish TS would give us some feedback...anything at this point lol.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 13, 2011, 11:48:10 PM
If the helicopter/van guys weren't in on it, then the body would of had to be real because surely if it was a dummy they'd be able to tell. Unless, it was a 136lbs dummy, MJ couldn't play dead that whole time.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 13, 2011, 11:49:10 PM
@bethechange, I agree, that's why this is so hard, what do we have to go on either then lies (needles) buried in a haystack (hoax truths)....lol
Or maybe we sometimes just make it 'harder' than it needs to be...or 'harder' than it really is/was. But I agree...the 'truth' has been sprinkled (like gold) among a sea of 'lies' :?
One (potential) problem I can see with a live-MJ being on the helicopter and in the coroner van (although I LOVE that theory)....is the 'factor' of keeping the # of people 'in on it' to a minimum. I think I counted 3 guys that got off the helicopter and three that were in and out of the van, plus the 'drivers' for both (I may be underestimating the #'s...but I'm pretty sure there was at least that many). Would they have to be 'in on it'?
If they're not, then that would mean that MJ would've had to 'play dead' during both 'trips' (unless, of course, the 'debunked' coroner van vid is actually 'real'...in which case, the people in the van (at least) are 'in on it'.
confused/ confused/ confused/
REALLY wish TS would give us some feedback...anything at this point lol.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Exactly. :(
Post by: PureLove on November 13, 2011, 11:51:54 PM
:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!
Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.
The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
:shock: afraid/
This is the first time I saw this! Even if the man was that strong to hold a body with one hand, that would be too disrespectful to behave a corpse like that, no matter who that was. So the body/corpse theory goes with this. The feet part of the body first made me think of a dummy and also how flat it is. Now I'm sure that it wasn't a corpse. Very nice catch Snoopy. /bravo/
Actually, it's because of you that I saw it! :lol:
I was trying to explain your flat body on the gurney, and saw this. It's not new though. Bec said they went over this a 1,000 times.
Unfortunately it leaves me even more confused. :(
This is what I was talking about. The body moves. And imo the helicopter flew with open doors to show us the moving body. This was one of the very first clues we received about the hoax.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmo7rFuA3n0&feature=related[/youtube]
And this is another video but it is closer, so we can see the dummy better. It is so flat to be a real body. So I do not think that was MJ for real under the sheet. I do not see the body moves inside the van. The guy hold it with two hands (not with a single hand) but that is something definitely flat and light.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrzRk66wbW4&feature=related[/youtube]
And this is a video where they carry the body into the helicopter. It has a body shape and 4 guys are carrying the body so carefully and the body doesn't look as light as the one that was put inside the van.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NLmHZO2XE&feature=related[/youtube]
Post by: bec on November 14, 2011, 12:18:34 AM
Once you have Live MJ going into UCLA on 6/25/09, you have Dr. Cooper in on the hoax. She confirmed that she worked on MJ's reportedly "dead" body for over an hour. Ridiculous. She called the time of death at 2:26, 2 hours and 5 minutes after the "911" call. Convenient. With Dr. Cooper in on the hoax, the sky's the limit at UCLA; there's nothing that has to be real (...and nothing is for real -Speechless). Between her and his entourage (Murray/Bodyguards/Paramedics), his safe passage through UCLA would be ensured. Recall reports of the MJ entourage being directed to a "private wing" of the ER on 6/25/09. Kill time for an hour or so with Doc Nyugen and then wrap MJ up in a sheet and send him on the chopper out of there to the coroner's guys. Who knows how many of these guys know MJ is alive in that sheet but little harm would come to him besides being a little gruff treatment, that you might drop a corpse a little quicker then a live human, but it's on a stretcher, not on the floor or anything. MJ would be fine even if they didn't know about the hoax. Once they all cleared out of the van, MJ could have unsheeted and been ready to hop out of the back. He may have even been wearing those clothes all along.
Quote
At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
It's very simple because it can be. The only thing you NEED to change is that MJ is alive in the hoax scenario. It doesn't need to be elaborate with the paramedics, Murray, Doc Cooper (possibly her team as well? if that part is true, they didn't testify, they may not exist), Doc Nyugen, Coroner van driver, and Coroner in on it. IF the government is involved it may well be to approve the process, to make LAFD, LAPD, the Coroner, and UCLA comfortable and cooperative with their involvement (all proper approvals and licencing in place), and to coordinate entities. After 9/11 in the United States, the FBI works together with local emergency response agencies in order TO coordinate the efforts of these entities. Prior to 9/11 fire and police had no universal communication system that allowed them to work as a team, an ability that is crucial in case of man made catastrophe. Remember NYPD and NYFD couldn't talk to each other on 9/11 because their radios worked on different signals (or frequencies, I forget).
Post by: BeTheChange on November 14, 2011, 12:23:54 AM
@Snoopy...why the sad face? We know Mike's alive regardless of who or what was in the helicopter and coroner van. I'm not sure we're gonna be able to 'prove' it either way...other than to speculate as to what makes more 'sense'. As for the 'additional' # of people that MAY have had to be 'in on it' IF it's really Mike in the helicopter and van...maybe they are just part of the 'crew' to this whole thing (IF there is a movie being made right in front of our eyes....I'm sure the behind-the-scenes 'crew' includes many people, just like in any movie). So the 'problem' with the # of people in the helicopter and van, on its own, may not be 'strong' enough a point to 'debunk' the entire theory.
I will have to think on it some more to see if there is any other 'problems' with the theory. But, as with any theory, no matter how much we 'like' it....we should address any potential problems as best we could.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 14, 2011, 12:35:31 AM
What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
So what does this mean?
Clearly it was a dummy/doll/whatever fake body thingy.....
Does this mean the helicopter transport was a decoy?
Did Michael stay on the helicopter? (was that him being unstrapped mid flight?)
....sigh....more questions than answers...
I think it was Michael himself under the sheet getting into the helicopter. And they changed and put a dummy under the sheet. That's what we see in the van moved by that guy with a single hand. Probably MJ used the helicopter to go somewhere else. The van was a good distraction. people and the media were following the van so Michael flew with the helicopter to the destination he wanted.
But what for?
The media followed the van until it went into the parking garage. So what if they follow? Let them follow. A gate closes in the garage and prevents them from following anyway. Besides, if MJ was so concerned about the media following the coroner van... why did he have the helicopter unload his "body" into a van to be driven anywhere? Why did he arrange for his "body" to be helicoptered directly to a location where it could be brought inside through the roof entrance, and transported later that evening when the whole world wasn't glued to their TV screens watching it all unfold? Perhaps while Jermaine was doing his press conference and we were watching that, if privacy and secrecy was desired... if MJ needed to "escape", again, he had many better, more secure, less risky ways to do it, that didn't involve a switch-a-roo done on live feed, David Coperfield style.
It serves no purpose at that point, for MJ to switch places with a dummy. The dummy would have to be on the helicopter already, necessitating the helicopter pilot and crewman to be in on it anyway. So this dummy would be used only to fool a couple guys fooling around for a min in the coroner van? It's not to fool the coroner we have already determined and collectively agreed upon. I don't see the point in bringing the helicopter guys in on it, as well as having a perfect MJ replica floating around out there (had to be loaded onto the helicopter at some point) just waiting for the wrong set of eyes to happen upon it (automatic jig's up! time), for the sole and specific purpose of fooling a couple of guys who handle it while wrapped in a sheet for :04 seconds.
I believe MJ could indeed play dead for that long. I believe I could so I believe anyone could who really wanted to. Remember being a kid and playing dead? It's not that hard for short periods of time. Who knows, those couple of guys might be in on it anyway. IF the FBI is involved, they probably have something to do with supplying the helicopter. Their guys don;t even have to know however. A helicopter pilot isn't going to monkey with a corpse in the back (he's flying the helicopter) and his crewman is hanging out the bloody door the whole ~5 min flight. These are the last guys who are likely to take a peak. But again, go ahead and peak, it's really MJ :lol:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 14, 2011, 01:57:08 AM
BeTheChange, I agree it would help to know we're on the right track *hint hint*, I can't imagine any other theory right now. It could be the next level is predetermined as you said. As for the body, it could have been live MJ or a dummy; it had to be something given we can see definition in the sheet at a certain angle. So yes, the sheet gives the illusion it's flat from right above, when in fact it's not because when the light hits it differently, we see shadow's; thus creating the body definition.
From the beginning of the hoax I assumed it was MJ participating the whole time. Who knows, that's really the illusion of June 25. It could have been both, a dummy and MJ as stated above. When I saw the part of the vid Snoopy pointed out, MJ could have been underneath as it kind of looked like he maybe moved.
It would make everything much less complicated if it was a live MJ the whole time or again, atleast part.
So at this point we can all atleast rule out another theory? The "cadaver" and/or even just the, "cancer-stricken double who died that day" theories? Lol
Good idea to whoever thought of finding out the time Murray called the girlfriend that day, to prove the ambulance scenario did play out. If Murray spoke to her around 1 and he was in the ambulance, it took them more than 20/30 mins to arrive at UCLA? Huh? If they reached "MJ's body" in the home at 12:27, why was he still in the ambulance at 1? That's a whole lot of time.
Well he called her at 1:08 so he could of been a few minutes in the ambo...which like you said would still be around 1pm...so how long does it take to get to UCLA and what time did they arrive there?
@bethechange, yes that is true about the number of people, but I guess you could think of it like this;
Would you rather;
Extra 3 or so people + LIVE MJ as the corpse = EPIC-LY AMAZING
Or;
Not have the extra 3 or so people + dummy = not so EPIC, but still great in terms of this whole hoax.
That's why a while back in one of the other threads when we were discussing how many people would be in it, TS said the less the better but then that confused us because we were thinking 'the less the better' instead of thinking 'no unnecessary baggage of people, (only the people who are NEEDED to make this hoax work or as stated above about (making this hoax more epic) then if that's needed to make this hoax more epic, then I'm sure MJ wouldn't mind using the few extra people)'
I agree, bring on 7c. We did 7a. and 7b. on accident as a result. TS, you told us from the beginning that once one part of the chain was proven, the rest would fall into place like dominoes. How right you were. We did it. How incredible! What a great day!
I think TS has this thing timed.
About the live MJ from the ambo to the Coroner's, if it was MJ I don't see how he could have taken in oxygen when those sheets were so tight...and about the guy carrying the body @4:40 in the video, it seems like he is carrying it with one hand, but to me it only seems like he is lifting the body from the top with one hand, while his other hand may have been used as a support.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 14, 2011, 02:00:38 AM
@Bec I agree with most of what you said; but if the heli/coroner guys are not in on it, they handled the body pretty rough in the van for MJ to be alive and them not know. But I suppose he could have played dead for a short time. If the coroner vid is real, then indeed, only the coroner van driver would have to know. Even if they were in on it, with government involvement and/or the movie aspect is enough to keep them quiet, yes?
@Purelove people really are that disrespectful to corpses as they think "they're dead so who cares". I watched something about a guy who was charged for being caught on hospital surveillance dragging a corpse around, including down the stairs, by the legs. Pretty horrific.
Anyway, I realized we went through all of the levels lol. Maybe we should let this most recently discussed theory stand alone, before people start getting confused and we start going in circles.
Btw, no one addressed the time discrepancy. If Murray was in the ambulance at around 1:00 (on the phone), why did it take so long to get from Carolwood at 12:27(-12:30) to UCLA after 1:00? That timeline with the Nicole phonecall could be fabricated.
*Edit: use_your_illusion It takes approx. 3 mins to get to UCLA from MJ's residence (correct me if I'm wrong). An ambulance will have right of way so it would be fast.
P.s. TS, show yourself! *throws water balloons at you*
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 14, 2011, 02:23:47 AM
:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!
Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.
The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
:shock: :shock: WOW yes I see it, something being lifted up which is "white" is it being lifted or is it sitting up??? but something is being moved in the van WTF??
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 14, 2011, 02:35:20 AM
Except for the case that video with MJ jumping out the coroner's van is true. You know the one they said it was faked by some German television.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 14, 2011, 02:44:29 AM
*Edit: use_your_illusion It takes approx. 3 mins to get to UCLA from MJ's residence (correct me if I'm wrong). An ambulance will have right of way so it would be fast.
P.s. TS, show yourself! *throws water balloons at you*
I was gonna say use garlic powder...but water balloons are good too...lol
So about the timing...what did they do during the rest of that time?...stop at In-n-Out....pffft...something has to be wrong here, either Murray made that call to Nicole Alverez from somewhere else, or the ambulance didn't go straight away to UCLA.
Wasn't someone following the ambo?...Ben's video, must be fake right?...I don't seem to understand anymore...
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 14, 2011, 02:55:53 AM
Or maybe we are not on the right track /pull hair/.
Post by: bec on November 14, 2011, 02:56:27 AM
Post by: underthemoon on November 14, 2011, 03:09:00 AM
The next video we saw shows the last minutes before landing at the coroner and they put a stretcher without belts out...i surched at google maps and found out that the heli that lands at the coroner don't come from the right side....the sun was going down in the west and this heli has to fly to the east to come to the coroner, but he always fly in the west...to the sun !
Then he was so very good filmed and never rearly high...he flow over aome streets and trees....i surched back from the landing place and found out that it is possible that he came from the USC Hospital, only a fiew streets away from the coroner. from there he flow over the Alcazar Str., left in the Eastlake Ave, right in the Biggy Str. and along the N State Str. to the coroner.
There is not one reason that he have to fly so low through this roads when he came from the UCLA !
Please take a look at the map. The USC Hospital is in the north east of the coroner:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=los+angeles+north+mission+road&hl=de&ll=34.060881,-118.206603&spn=0.006817,0.01089&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.815565,89.208984&vpsrc=6&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&t=f&z=17&ecpose=34.05931343,-118.20660272,970.27,0,11.438,0
I will put a link of the flight soon !
And for me it looks like the men from the coroner.....the older one in the lighter shirt who seams to lead the others....wraps the fingerprints away after they closed the back doors and the other touched the door without gloves he goes back and clean there gain. Same at the doors at the side....seams like they had later no chance to do this and they can't do it better because they where filmed.
I wish i could better explain, but english isn't my native language... /white flag/
Post by: underthemoon on November 14, 2011, 03:35:13 AM
The coroner buildings are getting more since 2009...they are still working on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo
Post by: Suzy7 on November 14, 2011, 03:43:11 AM
Post by: MJonmind on November 14, 2011, 04:48:54 AM
It would be awesome if it was all him! I’m sure MJ would have loved a good foot-rub in UCLA by Kathy Hilton! It may have been fun but a little traumatic still for the kids and Katherine at UCLA. However weeks later if he was still the "dead" body they worked on, 9 hours of make-up with Karen Faye and LaToya while they chatted about whatever might have been a little tedious for him. :lol:
These are some possible problems for a live MJ body:
--MJ can’t see what’s happening under the sheets; he’d like to see every part of the action himself.
--There’s the oxygen issue under the bag or sheets, but maybe it was a loose breathable cloth.
--The blue-shirt guy that looks like MJ inside the gate before the ambulance slowly backs out, would have to be quickly wrapped in the sheets and put on the gurney.
--The body does seem to be roughly handled at times, especially if any handlers were not in on the hoax, making a potential for injury. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NLmHZO2XE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NLmHZO2XE&feature=related)
I want to apologize for any trouble my earlier post led to. I just like to explore all possibilities. SimPattyK, please stay, you are needed and appreciated here! bearhug respect/
Post by: Mish1981 on November 14, 2011, 07:11:17 AM
Post by: Sarahli on November 14, 2011, 07:47:03 AM
I am not sure what you guys are saying concerning this video but at 0:28 there is a first person who enters the van, so the guy we see lifting the body/dummy isn't doing this alone, there is someone else helping him. Sorry if I misunderstood.
Post by: paula-c on November 14, 2011, 08:20:28 AM
Sounds like most are agreed then that the body was MJ alive! That was my choice when TS first asked the body question in the other levels. Bec has so ably presented all the stages, times and places during the 25th with a live MJ, and now it seems more plausable than ever, and Snoopy71 has been helpful seeing things. I'm still not 100% sure though, and am still keeping open to other scenarios, since we can't know all the aspects of the illusion methods of the master magician, and we could be making false assumption or missing things. Only TS can verify if this was indeed the correct choice, since in the earlier levels he seemed to lead us to focus on the corpse, double, no body or dummy choices. Someone said that perhaps it was a mixture of a dummy and MJ himself at different times which seems possible to me too, although I did appreciate Snoopy71’s reasoning of storage of dummy problems.
It would be awesome if it was all him! I’m sure MJ would have loved a good foot-rub in UCLA by Kathy Hilton! It may have been fun but a little traumatic still for the kids and Katherine at UCLA. However weeks later if he was still the "dead" body they worked on, 9 hours of make-up with Karen Faye and LaToya while they chatted about whatever might have been a little tedious for him. :lol:
These are some possible problems for a live MJ body:
--MJ can’t see what’s happening under the sheets; he’d like to see every part of the action himself.
--There’s the oxygen issue under the bag or sheets, but maybe it was a loose breathable cloth.
--The blue-shirt guy that looks like MJ inside the gate before the ambulance slowly backs out, would have to be quickly wrapped in the sheets and put on the gurney.
--The body does seem to be roughly handled at times, especially if any handlers were not in on the hoax, making a potential for injury. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NLmHZO2XE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NLmHZO2XE&feature=related)
I want to apologize for any trouble my earlier post led to. I just like to explore all possibilities. SimPattyK, please stay, you are needed and appreciated here! bearhug respect/
Rubbing the feet, that makes Tickles :lol:
Post by: Andrea on November 14, 2011, 08:23:08 AM
Post by: curls on November 14, 2011, 08:37:38 AM
I like the simple theory, as I said a few days ago, MJ being alive rather than dead is all that needs to be changed, but I'm conscious that this was 'an illusion' on 25th June, so really whatever I, or we, think we've agreed on, we may still be way off!!
I wonder when TS will let us know how we're doing!
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 14, 2011, 08:48:24 AM
- ambulance photo is fake
- only one ambulance @Carolwood
- ambulance footage was filmed 6/25 (albeit slightly edited)
- ambulance did arrive @ UCLA 6/25
THE BODY
We seem to be split over whether or not the body is actually MJ or a dummy.
Major issue of contention for this: Why where the white sheets used instead of a body bag?
LIVE MJ vs DUMMY
Dummy:
Pros:
- can be a replica of Michael (realism/less suspicion)
- can endure rough handling (limit the number of people in on the hoax)
- could have been placed in a real body bag (unless the chemical/materials had to have air)
- possibly used for autopsy photos
- point of reference for EMS, UCLA Doctors, Coroner
- enable Michael to not have to be physically be present
- utilized in the Memorial and Burial services
Cons:
- acquisition (creation could raise suspicion)
- storage (Carolwood, UCLA, Coroners)
- disposal* (removal from Coroners)
- discovery (close examination)
LiveMJ:
Pros:
- is actually himself (realism)
- control over events (directing capability)
- point of reference for EMS, UCLA Doctors, Coroner
- does not require storage
Cons:
- enduring rough handling
- inability to breathe under sheets (* airholes possibly added to assist - ANDREA)
- risk being seen moving
- possible discovery upon escape (from Coroners)
Also note the following key points to consider:
Use of white sheets versus of a body bag;
- so Michael can potentially breathe (LIVE MJ)
- prevent chemicals/materials from potential "breakdown" (DUMMY)
- to match with autopsy photos created (LIVE MJ AND DUMMY)
Disposal & Escape;
- body was claimed/removed by the family to Forest Lawn (disposal from Coroners)(DUMMY)
- body possibly used for Memorial, Burial, Tomb (DUMMY)
- no clues offered regarding escape method after Coroners (LIVE MJ)
- no body needed for Memorial, Burial, Tomb; closed casket (LIVE MJ)
There are obviously benefits and drawbacks to both, but which option seems most credible?
*If there are other points I forgot to mention, please feel free to add it as it may help to come to a conclusion. :mrgreen:
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 14, 2011, 09:02:59 AM
So here's MY personal take of why I'm leaning towards dummy.
I question Michael's ability to breathe while wrapped in the sheets for one. Not saying it isn't possible, it just seems extreme. The second is the footage of the body being handled in the van. To me that seems pretty rough especially in combination with being wrapped in the sheets (limited breathing). Michael is not some 20year old, big meaty football player....he's pretty frail, so the injury potential seems high in this scenario.
Now true enough he could easily be medicated with a muscle relaxant or something to get through it(cause lord knows given the right medication you could take a direct hit from an gorilla and not feel it!), but to me it just seems like an unnecessary extreme.
:-\
Post by: Andrea on November 14, 2011, 09:13:14 AM
Small little holes could've pierced the sheet for easier breathing and also be not visible. A live Michael also explains why they didn't use a body bag, plus it's a clue for people like us (hoaxers). Also, having Michael there instead of a dummy means no need for disposal (like you said) and also eliminates the risk of anyone not in on it discovering the dummy before it can be disposed of.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 14, 2011, 09:21:34 AM
Snoopy I agree that Michael is not a bulked-out guy but he's not made of crystal either. The guy who lifted Michael probably said "gonna lift/move you now" or something so Michael was ready for it. And it's not like he threw him across the room - he was shifted about a foot, maybe less?
Small little holes could've pierced the sheet for easier breathing and also be not visible. A live Michael also explains why they didn't use a body bag, plus it's a clue for people like us (hoaxers). Also, having Michael there instead of a dummy means no need for disposal (like you said) and also eliminates the risk of anyone not in on it discovering the dummy before it can be disposed of.
True, very true. :?
I added your airholes idea to the outline (I hope you don't mind)...that never occured to me ;)
Score 1 for LIVE MJ :lol:
Now if I could just wrap my mind around the roughness... :|
Post by: MsTrinity333 on November 14, 2011, 11:35:21 AM
Just a quick thought I had whilst outside gardening which leads from bec's post above....
Judge Pastor deliberately focussed our attention to the date June 9th 2009 when he read out the Jury Forms during the verdict. Remember the Jury had written the incorrect "death" date as June 9th 2009 and crossed it out with "squiggly lines"and then written June 25th 2009. I think he did this for a VERY good reason......to make sure we remembered that significant date again.
As we know June 9th 2009 was when MJ apparently finished filming the "top secret" Dome Project at Culver studios. ...wasn't it suggested ages ago that Dome project stood for Death of Me :lol: !!!
We know that the scenes for Thriller, Smooth Criminal etc were filmed during the Dome Project. Perhaps as well as these, all the images, footage, photos etc we have seen from his "death" day were actually filmed too, using green screens and sets during this time of the Dome Project and released as needed. I am sure TS talked about this ages ago in another level.
Now how this works in with if an ambulance really went to Carolwood Drive and then to UCLA on June 25th to make the day more "real"and also WHAT/WHO exactly went in the ambulance and how that then ties in with who is in on it and who isn't......well....I have to think more about that whilst ripping up weeds.
OK... I'm going to stop here with Adi before I get totally overwhelmed.
Hi TS; I knew you would post on 11-11-11 /bravo/ bearhug
BeTheChange, PureLove, Bec & ImConvinced have all had great posts. I quoted many in a draft on 11-11-11 that I was going to come back to and post on pg three... Then the weekend happened and you are all on 14! OMG! I'm exhausted mentally, physically & spiritually at this point so forgive me for not reading to the end before posting. I agree with Adi. (weed pulling is indeed good for the soul!) Whether there's a body or no body; (cancer patient), the ambulance picture, court pictures, 911 call, MJ court recording, "That day and the other d...ummm ummm" THIS IS ALL PART OF THE DOME PROJECT.
The Illusion was now set to begin 6-25-09: stage the bedroom, prepare the body etc...lights on all night.
We then had a Live Action Day with MJ directing behind the scenes; "Action" for all the realism & media frenzy needed in a celebrity death. ie Ambulance at Carlwood, hospital vigils, fans.
Hoax: YES.
Sting: YES.
FBI: YES mj_bad/
L.O.V.E. TO ALL bearhug
Post by: BeTheChange on November 14, 2011, 11:42:07 AM
As for the weeds....if you can't pull 'em, smoke 'em :lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: MsTrinity333 on November 14, 2011, 01:12:54 PM
Why not take a police car then?
Or hop in the fire truck after everyone raced off after the ambulance?
Or one of those undercover police and government cars that are souped up Impalas or Mustangs with the stealth (interior) lights on it. They have right of way too and would attract much less attention then a big box ambulance. Every time the gates opened, they risk one of the "extras" witnessing 2 ambulances inside the gate, then everyone would know there were two departures to watch for. It's hard not to notice an ambulance. They are designed to attract attention for high visibility on the roadway. On the other hand, those undercover police and government cars are inconspicuous and still have emergency lights to stop traffic and move as an emergency vehicle on the road. One could easily be parked in the back garage (that has been depicted in pics on the net since the back gate was discovered in 2009), waiting for MJ to hop in and zip off, undercover of massive ambulance backing out the gate distraction.
Why do it the hardest way possible when there's such an easy alternative?
I understand what you are trying to say, you make sense, but those types of police cars do not have tinted windows, anyone could see inside.. Unless they would put Michael in the trunk lol...I guess with the ambulance he is in the back and no one can see inside the ambulance.. More protection.. Is there anything easy in this hoax dear Bec? Nope.. My brains are fried lately.. lol...
????????????????
That type has ALL the windows tinted. I'm thinking the super stealth speed trap cop cars on the freeways in the US. Plain black or blue mustangs or impalas with super window tint that sit and wait in nondescript roadside places and leap out at you when you go 110 down the interstate on your way home at night. They're not uncommon and they're perfect for the job.
You should see the ones in Texas... CHARGERS. All blacked out windows, black ghost paint. They will nail your ass. 8) lolol/
Post by: MsTrinity333 on November 14, 2011, 01:35:30 PM
Hi MsTrinity...I've missed your gentle spirit around here the last 10 pages or so lol. Glad to see you back bearhug
As for the weeds....if you can't pull 'em, smoke 'em :lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Awww thank you for the love. bearhug
I know you meant it only as a joke; but I take smoking Mary-J very seriously because of personal family issues over the last seven yrs with my son; also named Michael. He's 18 and almost landed his ass in jail earlier this yr for possession & distribution on school grounds. The "medicinal" marijuana people hang out dealing in the park next to the High School while handing out their propaganda about how natural it all is. BS. I've been to HELL & back the last seven yrs between Texas & Colorado with this; and now I finally have my son back. :-\ I thank God every day but struggle in fear waiting for the other shoe to drop... I saw him go from a very loving, happy, sensitive kid to... angry, violent, abusive, antisocial teenager always on the run disappearing for days. No one can tell me pot ISN'T addictive or changes a person...
bearhug
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 14, 2011, 02:24:11 PM
Snoopy - it looks like the guy picked up the "body" with one hand...
Okay, so I wasn't imagining it! :shock:
He did it with relative ease too...
The round part looked like a head right?....it was so stiff...but light weight....OMG, I think we might have the body question answered. /woohoo/
Sorry if im late, im catching up on the last few pages. But woaaahhhh :shock: :shock: :shock: afraid/ /bravo/
Post by: BeTheChange on November 14, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
To everyone else...sorry for drifting off-topic.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 14, 2011, 02:28:59 PM
I think we're a majority in agreement on the ambulance sequence.
- ambulance photo is fake
- only one ambulance @Carolwood
- ambulance footage was filmed 6/25 (albeit slightly edited)
- ambulance did arrive @ UCLA 6/25
THE BODY
We seem to be split over whether or not the body is actually MJ or a dummy.
Major issue of contention for this: Why where the white sheets used instead of a body bag?
LIVE MJ vs DUMMY
Dummy:
Pros:
- can be a replica of Michael (realism/less suspicion)
- can endure rough handling (limit the number of people in on the hoax)
- could have been placed in a real body bag (unless the chemical/materials had to have air)
- possibly used for autopsy photos
- point of reference for EMS, UCLA Doctors, Coroner
- enable Michael to not have to be physically be present
- utilized in the Memorial and Burial services
Cons:
- acquisition (creation could raise suspicion)
- storage (Carolwood, UCLA, Coroners)
- disposal* (removal from Coroners)
- discovery (close examination)
LiveMJ:
Pros:
- is actually himself (realism)
- control over events (directing capability)
- point of reference for EMS, UCLA Doctors, Coroner
- does not require storage
Cons:
- enduring rough handling
- inability to breathe under sheets (* airholes possibly added to assist - ANDREA)
- risk being seen moving
- possible discovery upon escape (from Coroners)
Also note the following key points to consider:
Use of white sheets versus of a body bag;
- so Michael can potentially breathe (LIVE MJ)
- prevent chemicals/materials from potential "breakdown" (DUMMY)
- to match with autopsy photos created (LIVE MJ AND DUMMY)
Disposal & Escape;
- body was claimed/removed by the family to Forest Lawn (disposal from Coroners)(DUMMY)
- body possibly used for Memorial, Burial, Tomb (DUMMY)
- no clues offered regarding escape method after Coroners (LIVE MJ)
- no body needed for Memorial, Burial, Tomb; closed casket (LIVE MJ)
There are obviously benefits and drawbacks to both, but which option seems most credible?
*If there are other points I forgot to mention, please feel free to add it as it may help to come to a conclusion. :mrgreen:
For DUMMY to be used, Michael needed the WHOLE LA COUNTY and its authorities include in hoax so they would " revive" and move around dummy pretending it is real Michael. How much possibility this version does have??? I think- a little. Too risky to keep it look real, to keep secrecy, too expensive, etc.
IMO, ill and already dead patient who looked like Michael, could be wearing a Michael Jackson disguise, was taken to the hospital.
Real Michael taken to the hospital aslo another version , but there will be again too many people involved for MJ to successfully escpae with family help. In this case, right there hoax/sting started, but then it does not add up with long time hoax plan.
So, to figure this difficult puzzle out, we should let go one of the considered options we have had. We can't make all versions fit one another and design our own version of hoax.............because it is no possible. At last, there is only one version of hoax is happening.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 14, 2011, 02:31:17 PM
:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!
Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.
The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is?????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
Doesn't it look like the right foot wiggles at 0:27, after the stretcher hits that bump?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 14, 2011, 02:37:25 PM
I mean I don't see the necessity of being MJ himself in the helicopter.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 14, 2011, 02:41:10 PM
Not that I would be good in judging people's behavior, but that was my impression about him.
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 14, 2011, 03:25:39 PM
http://www.cwp.nhs.uk/GuidancePolicies/CWPPolicies/Infectioncontrol/Documents/IC12%20Body%20Bag%20Procedure%20Issue%202.pdf
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 14, 2011, 03:43:32 PM
I do not believe there was a need for MJ to be in the helicopter himself, wrapped in sheets, this is almost as horrid as the corpse theory. And how this would serve the hoax better? It could have been a dummy without raising suspicions.
I mean I don't see the necessity of being MJ himself in the helicopter.
i agree with you, i don't see they purpose, maybe they brought a corpse to the coroner who was at the UCLA already ( a lot of people die at a hospital), so it wasen't MJ or a Dummy. And the ones in the hoax ( maybe only the doctor?) say that it was a distraction for the papparazzi and all the fans, to not been followed because of chaotic things that could been happening. therefor the ones who brought that body to the helicopter are in but not Hoax INN! theyre only thinking that they have distracted the paps"and the fans. so no dummy or live MJ have to be brought into this event. ( maybe to far fetched but this couldn't leave my brian so i have to share this with you all, and i wanted to know what you think about that?)
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 14, 2011, 04:40:11 PM
@TS-Since the thread went up I have been reading along.
Seriously I feel like I am in Ground Hog's day movie
with a little bit of this attitude: rr/ :lol:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjB68F4i428[/youtube]
Post by: Adi on November 14, 2011, 04:52:59 PM
Post by: VeryLittleSusie on November 14, 2011, 05:07:55 PM
Or:
he jumped from this van "the other day" in order to make the "autopsy photo" :P
Or: this "jump-out-of-the-van-video" was fake.
(scratches her head)
Post by: PureLove on November 14, 2011, 05:28:20 PM
What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
So what does this mean?
Clearly it was a dummy/doll/whatever fake body thingy.....
Does this mean the helicopter transport was a decoy?
Did Michael stay on the helicopter? (was that him being unstrapped mid flight?)
....sigh....more questions than answers...
I think it was Michael himself under the sheet getting into the helicopter. And they changed and put a dummy under the sheet. That's what we see in the van moved by that guy with a single hand. Probably MJ used the helicopter to go somewhere else. The van was a good distraction. people and the media were following the van so Michael flew with the helicopter to the destination he wanted.
But what for?
The media followed the van until it went into the parking garage. So what if they follow? Let them follow. A gate closes in the garage and prevents them from following anyway. Besides, if MJ was so concerned about the media following the coroner van... why did he have the helicopter unload his "body" into a van to be driven anywhere? Why did he arrange for his "body" to be helicoptered directly to a location where it could be brought inside through the roof entrance, and transported later that evening when the whole world wasn't glued to their TV screens watching it all unfold? Perhaps while Jermaine was doing his press conference and we were watching that, if privacy and secrecy was desired... if MJ needed to "escape", again, he had many better, more secure, less risky ways to do it, that didn't involve a switch-a-roo done on live feed, David Coperfield style.
It serves no purpose at that point, for MJ to switch places with a dummy. The dummy would have to be on the helicopter already, necessitating the helicopter pilot and crewman to be in on it anyway. So this dummy would be used only to fool a couple guys fooling around for a min in the coroner van? It's not to fool the coroner we have already determined and collectively agreed upon. I don't see the point in bringing the helicopter guys in on it, as well as having a perfect MJ replica floating around out there (had to be loaded onto the helicopter at some point) just waiting for the wrong set of eyes to happen upon it (automatic jig's up! time), for the sole and specific purpose of fooling a couple of guys who handle it while wrapped in a sheet for :04 seconds.
I believe MJ could indeed play dead for that long. I believe I could so I believe anyone could who really wanted to. Remember being a kid and playing dead? It's not that hard for short periods of time. Who knows, those couple of guys might be in on it anyway. IF the FBI is involved, they probably have something to do with supplying the helicopter. Their guys don;t even have to know however. A helicopter pilot isn't going to monkey with a corpse in the back (he's flying the helicopter) and his crewman is hanging out the bloody door the whole ~5 min flight. These are the last guys who are likely to take a peak. But again, go ahead and peak, it's really MJ :lol:
I still do not believe the thing (body or dummy) that was loaded into the helicopter is the same one with the one they took off the helicopter. There is a huge difference btw the two. It wasn't necessary for Michael to be in that scene. That could be anyone who was under the sheet getting into the helicopter. It was probably to give us the clue by showing us the moving body inside the helicopter. I don't know with what other purposes would the helicopter fly with open doors.
I believe it was Michael himself under the sheet and moved inside the helicopter on purpose and then he used helicopter to fly somewhere else. He didn't need to stay in the van. As I wrote before the van was a good distraction for the media, so he could travel without people noticing him. In this case, the people inside the helicopter and the van are of course in on the hoax, as well as the DA and the doctors in the hospital. Using a dummy is not for fooling someone but it was for distraction while he was flying somewhere else.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 14, 2011, 05:47:30 PM
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 14, 2011, 06:45:27 PM
Hi MsTrinity...I've missed your gentle spirit around here the last 10 pages or so lol. Glad to see you back bearhug
As for the weeds....if you can't pull 'em, smoke 'em :lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Good one Bethechange...I agree!!!! Anything to, "open your mind"! lolol/ penguin/
bearhug for EVERYONE!!! I LOVE YOU ALL!!!!!
Post by: paula-c on November 14, 2011, 07:10:52 PM
(http://media.kcby.com/images/090627_jackson_moving_van.jpg)
Janet Jackson arrives at Michael Jackson's LA home
Story Published: Jun 27, 2009 at 10:20 AM PST
LOS ANGELES (AP) - Janet Jackson arrived at her brother Michael Jackson's Holmby Hills estate Saturday, where moving vans arrived earlier in the day.
Janet Jackson, wearing dark glasses, drove up in a Bentley and went directly to the estate. About eight movers had taken dollies and packing equipment through the gates. It wasn't immediately known what was being taken out.
Most of Michael Jackson's family members had gathered in their Encino compound, where they are contemplating funeral arrangements and caring for his three children. They are feeling confused, upset and angry by the lack of information about those who were around the pop superstar in his final days, a person close to the family told The Associated Press.
Jackson's family wants to know more specifics about what role AEG, the concert promoter that was staging his 50-date concert series at London's 02 Arena, was playing in his life, said the person, who requested anonymity because of the delicate nature of the situation. They also want to know more about the role of his advisers and representatives, who they believe were put in place by the promoter.
AEG spokeswoman Natalie Whorms in London had no comment Saturday.
Jackson never communicated to his family who he had in place to handle his business affairs, the person said, adding that they were told by the singer's phalanx of advisers that he likely had a will, but it may be many years old. The family is distrustful of what they are being told - but they are determined to find out more, the person said.
"There are decisions going down without the family being in the loop; it's becoming an issue," the person said.
Randy Phillips, AEG Live president and chief executive, said earlier Friday that it was Jackson who insisted that Dr. Conrad Murray, a financially troubled cardiologist who was with the entertainer when he collapsed Thursday, be put on the tour payroll.
"As a company, we would have preferred not having a physician on staff full-time because it would have been cheaper without the hotels and travel, but Michael was insistent that he be hired," Phillips said. "Michael said he had a rapport with him."
Jackson collapsed Thursday at his rented home in Los Angeles. Police seized Murray's car in search of evidence, but have insisted that the doctor has been cooperative and do not consider him a criminal suspect.
Records reveal years of financial troubles for Murray, who practices medicine in California, Nevada and Texas; his Nevada medical practice, Global Cardiovascular Associates, was slapped with more than $400,000 in court judgments, and he faces at least two other pending cases and several tax liens.
The person close to the family said that while there were reports that the singer was distant from his family, Jackson spoke with his mother, Katherine, quite regularly and his father, Joe, had seen his son shortly before his death. His other eight siblings, including fellow superstar Janet, may not have talked to him recently but were not estranged.
Much of the family was holed up Friday inside the Jackson family's Encino compound, including his three children, according to the person, who described them as doing "pretty good."
"I don't think it's fully set in yet," the person said.
The pop star left behind three children: Michael Joseph Jackson Jr., known as Prince Michael, 12; Paris Michael Katherine Jackson, 11; and Prince Michael II, 7. The elder children were born to ex-wife Deborah Rowe, while the youngest is his biological son, born to a surrogate mother.
Rowe and Jackson married in 1996 and divorced in 1999.
No family members were present in the mansion when Jackson died Thursday, the person close to the family said. In the 911 call released by fire officials Friday, an unidentified caller tells a dispatcher that Jackson's doctor is performing CPR.
Asked by the dispatcher whether anyone saw what happened, the caller answers: "No, just the doctor, sir. The doctor has been the only one there."
Coroner's officials said they released Jackson's body to his family late Friday night. The family is still trying to determine what kind of memorial to have for Jackson and when, and are debating between the idea of having a private ceremony or a grand celebration open to the public, the person close to the family said.
Jackson appeared to have suffered a heart attack, another person with knowledge of the situation who was not authorized to speak publicly and requested anonymity told the AP on Friday. A heart attack is a blocking of the arteries that deprives the heart of adequate blood and can cause cardiac arrest.
Jackson's brother Jermaine said Thursday that it was believed the pop singer went into cardiac arrest, an interruption of the normal heartbeat that can be caused by factors other than heart attack.
The Los Angeles County coroner's office, which completed its autopsy Friday, said there were no signs of foul play or trauma, but determining the cause of death will require further tests that will take six to eight weeks.
Phillips said AEG Live held multiple insurance policies covering cancellation of the shows, and that some time in February Jackson submitted to several hours of physicals that the insurance underwriter insisted upon, and that Jackson passed them all.
"We had pretty good coverage, but a lot of it is going to depend on the toxicology results," he said. "We need to know what the cause of death was."
---
AP Writers Beth Harris and Mike Blood and AP Global Media Services Production Manager Nico Maounis in Los Angeles and Shawn Pogatchnik in London contributed to this report.
http://www.kcby.com/news/national/49342257.html
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BQBI6z1LjRw/SpHWcR5tZfI/AAAAAAAAAfY/emT2YG5TQ_I/s400/smoking-gun-moving-)
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 14, 2011, 07:21:41 PM
What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.
@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.
Oh yeah Definitely!
I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?
I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times. Weird. Dummy? It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...
So what does this mean?
Clearly it was a dummy/doll/whatever fake body thingy.....
Does this mean the helicopter transport was a decoy?
Did Michael stay on the helicopter? (was that him being unstrapped mid flight?)
....sigh....more questions than answers...
I think it was Michael himself under the sheet getting into the helicopter. And they changed and put a dummy under the sheet. That's what we see in the van moved by that guy with a single hand. Probably MJ used the helicopter to go somewhere else. The van was a good distraction. people and the media were following the van so Michael flew with the helicopter to the destination he wanted.
But what for?
The media followed the van until it went into the parking garage. So what if they follow? Let them follow. A gate closes in the garage and prevents them from following anyway. Besides, if MJ was so concerned about the media following the coroner van... why did he have the helicopter unload his "body" into a van to be driven anywhere? Why did he arrange for his "body" to be helicoptered directly to a location where it could be brought inside through the roof entrance, and transported later that evening when the whole world wasn't glued to their TV screens watching it all unfold? Perhaps while Jermaine was doing his press conference and we were watching that, if privacy and secrecy was desired... if MJ needed to "escape", again, he had many better, more secure, less risky ways to do it, that didn't involve a switch-a-roo done on live feed, David Coperfield style.
It serves no purpose at that point, for MJ to switch places with a dummy. The dummy would have to be on the helicopter already, necessitating the helicopter pilot and crewman to be in on it anyway. So this dummy would be used only to fool a couple guys fooling around for a min in the coroner van? It's not to fool the coroner we have already determined and collectively agreed upon. I don't see the point in bringing the helicopter guys in on it, as well as having a perfect MJ replica floating around out there (had to be loaded onto the helicopter at some point) just waiting for the wrong set of eyes to happen upon it (automatic jig's up! time), for the sole and specific purpose of fooling a couple of guys who handle it while wrapped in a sheet for :04 seconds.
I believe MJ could indeed play dead for that long. I believe I could so I believe anyone could who really wanted to. Remember being a kid and playing dead? It's not that hard for short periods of time. Who knows, those couple of guys might be in on it anyway. IF the FBI is involved, they probably have something to do with supplying the helicopter. Their guys don;t even have to know however. A helicopter pilot isn't going to monkey with a corpse in the back (he's flying the helicopter) and his crewman is hanging out the bloody door the whole ~5 min flight. These are the last guys who are likely to take a peak. But again, go ahead and peak, it's really MJ :lol:
I still do not believe the thing (body or dummy) that was loaded into the helicopter is the same one with the one they took off the helicopter. There is a huge difference btw the two. It wasn't necessary for Michael to be in that scene. That could be anyone who was under the sheet getting into the helicopter. It was probably to give us the clue by showing us the moving body inside the helicopter. I don't know with what other purposes would the helicopter fly with open doors.
I believe it was Michael himself under the sheet and moved inside the helicopter on purpose and then he used helicopter to fly somewhere else. He didn't need to stay in the van. As I wrote before the van was a good distraction for the media, so he could travel without people noticing him. In this case, the people inside the helicopter and the van are of course in on the hoax, as well as the DA and the doctors in the hospital. Using a dummy is not for fooling someone but it was for distraction while he was flying somewhere else.
I agree, someone was in that bag. Now I found out that the white bag have little holes so you can breathe.. My doctor friend told me, but he did not have time to explain what is the difference between that bag and the plastic bag.. Unless I am speculating here, if someone got shot and killed they are full of blood, I guess they would use the black plastic bag, and someone that dies like normal death they probably use that white bag.. I need to ask him..
Post by: PureLove on November 14, 2011, 07:27:05 PM
I thought we did have a body theory? Mj (and maybe dummy)
TS quoted Bec's statement about realism for a reason. So I think MJ was there through it all so that the paramedic's recollection of event's and everyone else involved, would be based on a combination of both: script + alive MJ. This would allow the testimony about the event's of June 25 to be based on much more realistic sounding occurences vs. just script + imagination.
I also think the people handling the body would be in the know, for the simple fact of unavoidable risk MJ could be in. As I mentioned before, the FBI/movie aspect would be enough to keep them quiet, and who knows if they weren't FBI and/or actor's themselves.
So the just MJ theory can be added to that ambulance theory?
On a side note, MJonMind mentioned 'blue shirt guy' and I remember us discussing him in '09; I noticed his hair is the same as the autopsy photo. It's curly and in a ponytail.
TS reminded us about bec's post which was about a real 911 call was made. bec wrote: "It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination."
I do not think TS was trying to say MJ had to be in every single place himself to make it real. If a real 911 call was made, a real autopsy might have done and this requires a real corpse. A corpse where the doctors worked on for an hour and the autopsy was done on would make everything more real. It's not because these people (doctors or DA) are not in on the hoax BUT like bec says "It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened." That would make them tell the things easily instead of pretending what they could be done, and how they could be done.
Post by: Delia on November 14, 2011, 07:42:53 PM
Post by: paula-c on November 14, 2011, 07:55:04 PM
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Level%207/Puzzle1.jpg)
And now (drum roll) … we are at the final level—level number 7! (7 represents completion). Now it’s time to take everything that we have learned so far (in the previous levels, etc), and put the last few pieces of the puzzle into place.
This is the final frontier for the hoax; the “when’s” and “why’s” have already been thoroughly established, especially through the numerology—and more than a year has gone by, without anyone even making a serious attempt to claim the $999 reward. Therefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
The previous levels were not a waste, because without them we would not be where we are now. Much of the research has already been done, and some of the pieces have already come together (just like the picture above); but we still have a few major areas that need completed (just like the picture above). As I have said already, the minor details on the “how’s” are not very important (and may never been fully understood); however, for more than one reason, the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved.
For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7. Another major area, that keeps popping up unresolved, is the idea that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on some day other than 6-25-09; and closely related is the fairly common idea that two or more ambulances were used (supposedly different lettering, reflector, wrong shadows, etc).
There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo). There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
The ambulance photo needed to be staged in advance, because of the great difficulty getting a good picture through the window “on the fly”; and if you missed the one chance, you would not get another. But staging that photo in advance would not raise public suspicion, if it was done indoors.
Also, some seem to think that the ambulance picture was generated from nothing, in good-old “Photoshop”; but the reality is, no matter how good you are at Photoshop, you don’t just start from nothing and end up with a high resolution photograph (like the ambulance photo). Staging the ambulance photo gives you the basic picture(s) to work from; and then you can modify it with Photoshop (such as adding the car reflection, by taking a separate photo of the car, and then layering it in Photoshop with some transparency).
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked. Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.
8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
penguin/
At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Last but not least, here is a real good statement from bec, which she posted in my recent thread about the timing of the 911 call (12:20 or 12:21?). Keep this concept in mind, because it applies to far more than just the 911 call. “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203)}.
Post by: Mish1981 on November 14, 2011, 08:02:35 PM
Do you think those in the helicopter and coroners van had to be in on it if it were truly Michael himself? Here's my question if those people are NOT in on it, if it were Michael then he would be taking a huge risk by just breathing, let alone if he had to cough or sneeze. So does that mean if Michael was in fact in both the helicopter and coroners van that all parties were involved?
Post by: neversaynever on November 14, 2011, 10:53:57 PM
The guys in the helicopter that took the body to the coroner don't have to in on it at all, they could have been told that they needed to take a dummy with them and fly with an open door to make sure the predators (media) would stay distracted and that they would bring the real body with a van for safety reasons.
I believe that is so TRUE. The whole flight was a distraction for the media. When have we ever seen anything of this nature take place for a famous death? Correct me if I am wrong on this one. But they have never "staged" a flight for anyone like this. Has anyone seen this happen before with a famous person?
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 14, 2011, 11:01:33 PM
@TS. thank you for level 7a.
@ everyone. wow. just read 8 pages. so many theories. so many fights. so many videos. so much debunking... a lot has been written and i'm afraid i can not add anything insightful or of value to what has already been said. in addition to this, i am not decided on a few things personally, so therefore will refrain from commenting, as i dont want to make comment when i am not certain i believe what i am saying.
nevertheless. i am here. i am reading. and i applaud your diligence in quantifying what happened on 25.06.09.
@ TS. we are in need of conflict resolution. perhaps in the form of level 7b.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 15, 2011, 01:02:44 AM
Perhaps my post got lost with everyone posting at the same time. However I would like someone to read this and give their feed back.
Do you think those in the helicopter and coroners van had to be in on it if it were truly Michael himself? Here's my question if those people are NOT in on it, if it were Michael then he would be taking a huge risk by just breathing, let alone if he had to cough or sneeze. So does that mean if Michael was in fact in both the helicopter and coroners van that all parties were involved?
If ti was himself in the helicopter and van, those people there should be in the hoax. And besides, why would be himself there? He could just have left away from UCLA and let things go further without him, if the coroner was already in the hoax.
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 15, 2011, 02:59:59 AM
Have you seen my post about the Body Bag at page 14? Because i added a link there. You see that the purpose for using a body bag is for preventing that people who handled the deseased ones got infected i. I have searched for sheets also, and the sheets are also fluid protected, so no leaking through the sheet is possible.
With LOVE Always
Post by: patman on November 15, 2011, 04:41:01 AM
There is such a big difference in the size of the body and the "thing" that left the helicopter, it has to be a dummy.
I have no explanation yet abt where and how the dummy could get away without involving 2 many people.
But i do believe that after the Van left the helicopter platform, the helicopter went to LAX (is it possible to trace that ?). From where MJ took a plane to freedom.
What i also find interesting, is that only after 1,5 day, MJ's stuff is being taken away out of the Carolwood house. I mean...so soon already, with the investigation going on ...
Maybe i posted this in the wrong location, apologies for that, im not posting often ;)
Post by: PureLove on November 15, 2011, 07:01:19 AM
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8394/bodyf.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/bodyf.jpg/)
Post by: fordtocarr on November 15, 2011, 08:30:54 AM
hi all. i have been ill and therefore absent from forum for several days.
@TS. thank you for level 7a.
@ everyone. wow. just read 8 pages. so many theories. so many fights. so many videos. so much debunking... a lot has been written and i'm afraid i can not add anything insightful or of value to what has already been said. in addition to this, i am not decided on a few things personally, so therefore will refrain from commenting, as i dont want to make comment when i am not certain i believe what i am saying.
nevertheless. i am here. i am reading. and i applaud your diligence in quantifying what happened on 25.06.09.
@ TS. we are in need of conflict resolution. perhaps in the form of level 7b.
Hope you're feeling better now!! Looking forward to your comments ;)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 15, 2011, 08:56:57 AM
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h478/GINAFELICIA/bodyf1.jpg)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 15, 2011, 08:58:22 AM
Post by: patman on November 15, 2011, 09:19:18 AM
i think the two men in the Van, which have moved "him" to the other side of the Van, would have serious backpain if the body was real.... I mean, they bent over and then lifting a body ... that must he backbreaking lol
Post by: paula-c on November 15, 2011, 10:14:45 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU&feature=player_embedded
Photos of the ambulance with any difference, the reflector yellow,
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/67f55710.jpg)
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/25477c10.jpg)
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/e2849610.jpg)
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2370/ucla01detalle.jpg)
(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6346/ucla02detalle.jpg)
(http://www.radaronline.com/sites/default/files/photos/image_20090625/orphea_509j3_jackson_npg_03.jpg)
Post by: bec on November 15, 2011, 10:34:13 AM
Ps. although thank you for showing us MJ on the stretcher arriving sitting up at UCLA one more time :mrgreen:
Post by: bec on November 15, 2011, 10:42:20 AM
Post by: paula-c on November 15, 2011, 12:24:24 PM
@paula, It's either reflector tape or reflector paint. It reflects light cast on it, such as from headlights at night or flash photography. Notice the back doors of the ambulance do the same. In regular lighting they appear painted normally. Under Ben's flash they appear illuminated. Same with the reflector "spot". No mystery here.
Ps. although thank you for showing us MJ on the stretcher arriving sitting up at UCLA one more time :mrgreen:
Or retouch images "the friggin difference" :lol:
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 15, 2011, 12:27:25 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 15, 2011, 12:33:24 PM
@paula, It's either reflector tape or reflector paint. It reflects light cast on it, such as from headlights at night or flash photography. Notice the back doors of the ambulance do the same. In regular lighting they appear painted normally. Under Ben's flash they appear illuminated. Same with the reflector "spot". No mystery here.
Ps. although thank you for showing us MJ on the stretcher arriving sitting up at UCLA one more time :mrgreen:
Or retouch images "the friggin difference" :lol:
this we know......Video can be manipulated/Pictures can be manipulated.
A flat looking body, a reflector missing, shadows on the ground....yada,yada,yada...
....pull back see the bigger picture. (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/photosmile.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Hi MJ (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/action-smiley-065.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Post by: bec on November 15, 2011, 12:36:09 PM
Pun intended.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 15, 2011, 12:42:03 PM
Were these pics taken from a video? Was it live feed?
If it was, did other networks have the feed.. and same camera angle?
No one else got a pic or video?
Maybe they took so long to get outta Carolwood SO the paps and media could be there?
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 15, 2011, 12:49:22 PM
Well at least we seem to have put the dead body theory to rest.
Pun intended.
(http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/76.gif) (http://www.cool-smileys.com/tired-smiley-digging-his-grave-to-go-to-sleep)
Post by: bec on November 15, 2011, 12:50:25 PM
Considering the call didn't go out on the police scanners and there were so few people in attendance outside Carrolwood, and this drive to UCLA took approx ~5-10 minutes, and this moment of unloading and walking into ER took all of about ~25 seconds, I'm not surprised at the rarity of images. Ben's crew had the exclusive and we know why.
Post by: MissG on November 15, 2011, 01:07:01 PM
(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Violent%20Animated%20Emoticons/explode%20emoticon.gif)
Post by: fordtocarr on November 15, 2011, 01:13:12 PM
@Ford, they are photographs taken by Ben's crew who followed the ambulance. They were published accompanying an article on the "death" by ET. The only other images we have seen from that moment at UCLA is a very grainy ~:04 second video from the opposite side of the doorway that shows... nothing really at all.
Considering the call didn't go out on the police scanners and there were so few people in attendance outside Carrolwood, and this drive to UCLA took approx ~5-10 minutes, and this moment of unloading and walking into ER took all of about ~25 seconds, I'm not surprised at the rarity of images. Ben's crew had the exclusive and we know why.
Thank you for the answer Bec!! I agree about what you said (I think that we need little LIKE buttons on posts...)
Ben is obviously in on it...wonder if he's the one who filmed the murray docu...or followed him for stills...
Post by: MJonmind on November 15, 2011, 01:47:28 PM
These pics are from the vid Paula just posted. The first is the long slow part, and the second is from the supposed repeat; with the ambulance still in there but blocked by the tourbus. Is this possible for the first pic to have such an empty street--no firetruck in sight either, maybe wideangle lens? Maybe the beige shirt photog is with his butt against the firetruck? I don't see the big security in black in the second pic. I know this was discussed way back as well. I guess it was decided these were the same time, different distances from the gate?
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/ambu1.jpg)(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/ambu2.jpg)
Post by: BeTheChange on November 15, 2011, 01:48:46 PM
This pic clearly shows that what was loaded into the van was not 'flat'.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/08/article-1205277-05FEE086000005DC-897_468x286.jpg)
There is either a dummy, a dead body, or a live body under that sheet.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Grace on November 15, 2011, 02:42:06 PM
I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.
I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.
One reason why artists are wearing black on stage is that black against a black background is protecting (making it difficult for the public to notice details). That's where light and animated background get into their function for a show: to make only see what should be seen in the course of a presentation.
Same principle of "hiding" would apply to white against white background.
We discussed colours already when discussing the ambulance picture.
I guess we could reveal a lot of "how" if we would check optical image communication means like we did it then.
If we agree that optical illusion was one of the strategies to pull this off, we could look into how eyes are being tricked and then check which of these tricks have been used in the hoax --> get to know the master behind the camera.
Some areas / means of optical illusion:
- Motion & Time
- Luminance & Contrast
- Colour
- Geometric- & Angle Illusions
- Space, 3D & Size Constancy
- Cognitive- / Gestalt Effects
Some links to optical illusion phenomena:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion)
http://www.optillusions.com/ (http://www.optillusions.com/)
http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/ (http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/)
http://www.eyetricks.com/illusions.htm (http://www.eyetricks.com/illusions.htm)
http://www.moillusions.com/ (http://www.moillusions.com/)
An article on fooling the brain to reduce arthritis pain by using a mirror optical illusion:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/nov/14/mirror-therapy-reduces-pain-arthritis (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/nov/14/mirror-therapy-reduces-pain-arthritis)
Post by: Suzy7 on November 15, 2011, 04:21:01 PM
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 15, 2011, 04:24:49 PM
Scanned a bit some of the posts...hahaha i LOVE that smiley face!!
(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Violent%20Animated%20Emoticons/explode%20emoticon.gif)
@ australian mj believer: i hope u are felling better!! :) lots of love to u
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 15, 2011, 04:38:52 PM
Scanned a bit some of the posts...hahaha i LOVE that smiley face!!
(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Violent%20Animated%20Emoticons/explode%20emoticon.gif)
@ australian mj believer: i hope u are felling better!! :) lots of love to u
thank you beautiful stranger. i am much better now. catching up on lots of great info.
Love back to you.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 15, 2011, 05:02:50 PM
Scanned a bit some of the posts...hahaha i LOVE that smiley face!!
(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Violent%20Animated%20Emoticons/explode%20emoticon.gif)
@ australian mj believer: i hope u are felling better!! :) lots of love to u
LOL...me too! Good one MissG :lol:
I wonder if that's what happens to TS when he reads our comments :lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
P.S. Welcome back Australian MJ BeLIEver...glad you're feeling better ::P
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 15, 2011, 05:07:16 PM
Scanned a bit some of the posts...
(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Violent%20Animated%20Emoticons/explode%20emoticon.gif)
LOL Gema so what do you mean with this?
Don't you believe any of the theories presented here in a disorganized form?
Post by: Sarahli on November 15, 2011, 05:11:40 PM
Perhaps my post got lost with everyone posting at the same time. However I would like someone to read this and give their feed back.
Do you think those in the helicopter and coroners van had to be in on it if it were truly Michael himself? Here's my question if those people are NOT in on it, if it were Michael then he would be taking a huge risk by just breathing, let alone if he had to cough or sneeze. So does that mean if Michael was in fact in both the helicopter and coroners van that all parties were involved?
I would agree with you. If we go along with "the less people in on it, the better" concept, then I see no reason why we would include the people handling the body/dummy to be in the know. I believe the FBI is involved, so considering this, a scenario could be that they may just have done what they were asked to do without knowing the full story, (i.e that it's a Hoax). It's very possible that these people were told that they were working on a "diversion" operation. A kind of stunt for the media, and while all this show was happening for the world to see, the "real dead body" would be transported secretely to the coroner.
So whatever/whoever was on that gurney they would never question if it's a Hoax or not because they would not have been told that it was one. I honestly find it extremely risky that Michael himself was playing the dead. If there really is someone alive playing dead at some point and keeping with my thought that these people do not know about the Hoax, then it must be someone these people know because they know they're part of a diversion tactic but not that Michael Jackson faked his death.
Now, for the Hoax to work as it should, I see no specific need for Michael to absolutely be on this gurney. I also see no reason why it should be someone alive playing the dead; for the sake of safety a "high-tech" dummy would be preferable especially when the body was transported while so many eyes were watching. If the supposed alive person playing the dead had an urge to cough or sneeze, it would be disastrous. So for me I say that a dummy has been used for the transportation from UCLA to Coroner's van. Concerning the "dead body moving in helicopter" I really have no idea what happened. Maybe that the dummy came "back" to life. pale/
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 15, 2011, 05:27:08 PM
TS? You gonna wait some more days are you?? /overreacting/
Post by: Suzy7 on November 15, 2011, 05:32:39 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 15, 2011, 05:36:11 PM
This can go in circles for weeks. It's too much speculation. 7a is kinda clear, 7b can have different scenarios, all plausible. Just depends on how you look at it.
TS? You gonna wait some more days are you?? /overreacting/
Souza please not you, don't overreact, you must keep your head on your shoulders.
Let me do it for you, first you have to pull your hair, then scream and finally you overreact /pull hair/ /scream/ /overreacting/ three times it's better /overreacting/ /overreacting/ /overreacting/ so everybody can see you are really desperate :evil:.
TS come on, bring the Puzzle2.jpg and let's move on, I don't know if you heard but MJ will be back on November 29 so we must solve everything by than errrr errrr errrr
bearhug
Post by: Sarahli on November 15, 2011, 05:39:42 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 15, 2011, 05:41:13 PM
Maybe that TS enjoys reading our theories. :lol: I presume that his next comment his scheduled or maybe he'll give us a little wink soon.
No he won't because he's BAD ASS mj_bad/
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 15, 2011, 05:43:02 PM
There were two helicopters on the roof that day. I wonder does UCLA have their own rescue/transport chopper or do they always contract with local law enforcement. confused/
If BHPD/LAFD could cooperate on the W911 call, why wouldn't LAPD also cooperate on the transport?
Perhaps the "movement" inside the helicopter was to unwrap MJ so he could breathe freely before being re-wrapped again. It would also explain why GI Joe was standing in the doorway blocking news choopers view. :?
edit*
To me the only way they'd have to be "in the know" is if it was LIVE MJ.
If it were a dummy it wouldn't matter...so what if they unwrapped it and saw it wasn't MJ, they could be told it was a decoy mission if they ever questioned it. suspicious//
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 15, 2011, 05:45:26 PM
Do we know any additional information about the helicopter. What police agency is in charge of it, how many crew members, when it got to UCLA, etc...?
There were two helicopters on the roof that day. I wonder does UCLA have their own rescue/transport chopper or do they always contract with local law enforcement. confused/
If BHPD/LAFD could cooperate on the W911 call, why wouldn't LAPD also cooperate on the transport?
Perhaps the "movement" inside the helicopter was to unwrap MJ so he could breathe freely before being re-wrapped again. It would also explain why GI Joe was standing in the doorway blocking news choopers view.
I don't know but I do not think it matters that much.
In the "helicopter" stage of events things should have been already sorted out IMO.
UCLA should have their helicopters but I think I remember that helicopter was not theirs, maybe I am wrong.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 15, 2011, 06:27:13 PM
TS didn't mention anything about the helicopter or coroner van for Level 7 (not yet anyway)....even in his 'breakdown' of a, b, and c, no helicopter or van is mentioned lol. Yet, a lot of the discussion/thought has been about that (myself included) :lol:.
We want to figure it ALL out...and the crazy thing is, it drives us mental but we keep doing it, without even being asked to do it! /overreacting/
Interesting how our minds work...much like the whole hoax, I think we're making things 'harder' than they need to be or were.
But TS...you gotta admit, there's some great imagination, dedication, and 'investigative' skill on this forum ::P. Based on that, can you at least give us a 'nudge' in the right direction?
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: MissG on November 15, 2011, 06:30:58 PM
Scanned a bit some of the posts...
(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Violent%20Animated%20Emoticons/explode%20emoticon.gif)
LOL Gema so what do you mean with this?
Don't you believe any of the theories presented here in a disorganized form?
Well...this is how i feel at this point... :-[
"All I know is that to me
You look like you're havin' fun"
"You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round, round, round"
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJv5qLsLYoo[/youtube]
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 15, 2011, 06:40:46 PM
LMAO @ all of us :lol:
TS didn't mention anything about the helicopter or coroner van for Level 7 (not yet anyway)....even in his 'breakdown' of a, b, and c, no helicopter or van is mentioned lol. Yet, a lot of the discussion/thought has been about that (myself included) :lol:.
yes....throw us a bone already.
We want to figure it ALL out...and the crazy thing is, it drives us mental but we keep doing it, without even being asked to do it! /overreacting/
Interesting how our minds work...much like the whole hoax, I think we're making things 'harder' than they need to be or were.
But TS...you gotta admit, there's some great imagination, dedication, and 'investigative' skill on this forum ::P. Based on that, can you at least give us a 'nudge' in the right direction?
With L.O.V.E. always.
Yes, throw us a bone already /white flag/
Post by: curls on November 15, 2011, 06:41:34 PM
TS won't give any winks or hints or nudges until he's good and ready - we know that don't we, yet still we try to coax some response from him!! We're a funny lot! :lol:
Post by: wishingstar on November 15, 2011, 06:58:24 PM
Thanks for the shout out @MsTrinity333-Although I am not sure which comments of mine your referring to. It can't be any in this thread because this is my first comment here. ;)
@TS-Since the thread went up I have been reading along.
Seriously I feel like I am in Ground Hog's day movie
with a little bit of this attitude: rr/ :lol:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjB68F4i428[/youtube]
Great movie : ) I'll get the popcorn....again! :lol:
Blessings Always
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 15, 2011, 07:17:55 PM
also agree - cant remember who said it, but the way the body was handled with one arm. that was way too light to be a human body. also cant rememer who said it, but it wasnt handled in a respectful manner. i dunno, IMHO it makes me feel that it was a dummy.
therefore that makes me think (again, an opinion for me only not saying this is what actually happened) that if it was a dummy in the bag, there was no cadaver. which means the AR is just a piece of paper a false document. (not really fasle because of "joseph")
im not sure if i am making sence. and articulating what i am trying to say...
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 15, 2011, 07:34:48 PM
sorry to go back once more. but just quickly for those who believe MJ was 'playing dead' in body bag... isnt that too risky? dont mean to be disrespectful, but what if he fell off the gurney in transit (either in vehicle or transfering him to vehicle) or what if they dropped him. or if there was a car accident while he was in the back. or some kind of factor that would require mj to come out of his 'playing dead' act... that would be too risky... the plan would be foiled and there would be explaining to do. makes me think the body in the bag was a dummy.
also agree - cant remember who said it, but the way the body was handled with one arm. that was way too light to be a human body. also cant rememer who said it, but it wasnt handled in a respectful manner. i dunno, IMHO it makes me feel that it was a dummy.
therefore that makes me think (again, an opinion for me only not saying this is what actually happened) that if it was a dummy in the bag, there was no cadaver. which means the AR is just a piece of paper a false document. (not really fasle because of "joseph")
im not sure if i am making sence. and articulating what i am trying to say...
That was me (and Andrea I think) :lol:
When I very first saw the video footage, it appeared he picked the body up with one hand off the stretcher (and pretty roughly I might add).
But when I went back and watched it again, it appears he reached for it with one arm and then grabbed it with two. Another angle shows there was someone in the van lifting the feet. Another angle seems like he was turning the body sideways (not lifting)...
Point is, it's like the ambulance footage...depending on the vantage point it looked like the body was handled slightly different ways....a roll, a lift, a foot wiggle etc...
Even with all that said....it still looked very rough to me :-\
On the surface it would appear that this has nothing to do with the ambulance scenario---but it does...because if a dummy was used, then it would have had to start with the ambulance leaving Carolwood (I doubt a lifesize dummy would be laying around UCLA waiting for hoax day). suspicious//
....but that's just me :roll:
Post by: Suzy7 on November 15, 2011, 07:35:43 PM
No, he never said anything about what or who *left* UCLA, but isn't that apart of the scenario?
Take 2: (lol)
#1: Perhaps a live MJ took part in the trip from Carolwood to UCLA for the realism affect. (and he left from there while the rest was a diversion or participated for the *whole* body transfer.)
#2: A corpse or dummy was used at the home, then transported to UCLA. (again for realism and MJ left to his hideout from home or he wasn't even there to being with.)
#3: Live MJ went to UCLA for both escape and realism reasons / convenience; so he could get to helicopter. (and stayed in heli, as the van was the actual diversion.)
#4: Nothing went in ambulance from Carolwood to UCLA.
Yes, I still added what could have happened after UCLA.
Our option's really consist of 4 things in regards to the trip from Carolwood to UCLA: a corpse, live Michael, dummy or nothing/no one.
Why would Michael need to go to UCLA anyway? Maybe a corpse was used, again, for realism.
Post by: PureLove on November 15, 2011, 08:32:05 PM
I think the 'flat board' theory can also be laid to rest (hopefully). It is all about perception and angle.
This pic clearly shows that what was loaded into the van was not 'flat'.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/08/article-1205277-05FEE086000005DC-897_468x286.jpg)
There is either a dummy, a dead body, or a live body under that sheet.
With L.O.V.E. always.
That is flat. Definitely not the same one we saw before it was put into the helicopter. In the picture I posted, we see both of the bodies or dummies from the sky, from the same level. It's not about perception. Can you imagine how thick it would be if we see the one that was put into the helicopter from this angle of the pic you posted? It would look more thicker.
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8394/bodyf.jpg)
Post by: PureLove on November 15, 2011, 08:44:34 PM
@Purelove I'd believe a corpse could have been used, if it weren't for some inconsistencies, for example: the paramedic's statement's that don't match and if a real body was used, why wouldn't their stories correlate? Also, I don't understand wasting the coroners time doing a real autopsy, on a real body, only to create a fake AR anyway.
Then why need to waste time by making a real 911 call? I'm not saying a corpse was used definitely. I'm not sure of it. BUT if it is about making it real for people to talk what they did and not pretend later, I say why not. Maybe Michael asked them to create controversy and that is the reason why their stories do not correlate.
Post by: Andrea on November 15, 2011, 08:48:00 PM
Michael has been planning his death hoax, very intricately, for the last 20+ years and the big day to fake his death finally arrives. Don’t you think Michael would be there EVERY step of the way to make sure it goes EXACTLY as he’s planned and envisioned? Wouldn’t he want to feel the thrill of it for himself as it unfolds before the world’s eyes, with him being RIGHT THERE(!!) the whole time? He’s the director and the star of the greatest show on Earth and it’s his show. I really believe that it was just too important to Michael for him to leave everything in the hands of others - as much as he trusts them to help him - he had to be there too. And give enough clues at the right times for a very small audience (us) to pick up on and run with.
Post by: PureLove on November 15, 2011, 08:53:18 PM
Perhaps my post got lost with everyone posting at the same time. However I would like someone to read this and give their feed back.
Do you think those in the helicopter and coroners van had to be in on it if it were truly Michael himself? Here's my question if those people are NOT in on it, if it were Michael then he would be taking a huge risk by just breathing, let alone if he had to cough or sneeze. So does that mean if Michael was in fact in both the helicopter and coroners van that all parties were involved?
I would agree with you. If we go along with "the less people in on it, the better" concept, then I see no reason why we would include the people handling the body/dummy to be in the know. I believe the FBI is involved, so considering this, a scenario could be that they may just have done what they were asked to do without knowing the full story, (i.e that it's a Hoax). It's very possible that these people were told that they were working on a "diversion" operation. A kind of stunt for the media, and while all this show was happening for the world to see, the "real dead body" would be transported secretely to the coroner.
So whatever/whoever was on that gurney they would never question if it's a Hoax or not because they would not have been told that it was one. I honestly find it extremely risky that Michael himself was playing the dead. If there really is someone alive playing dead at some point and keeping with my thought that these people do not know about the Hoax, then it must be someone these people know because they know they're part of a diversion tactic but not that Michael Jackson faked his death.
Now, for the Hoax to work as it should, I see no specific need for Michael to absolutely be on this gurney. I also see no reason why it should be someone alive playing the dead; for the sake of safety a "high-tech" dummy would be preferable especially when the body was transported while so many eyes were watching. If the supposed alive person playing the dead had an urge to cough or sneeze, it would be disastrous. So for me I say that a dummy has been used for the transportation from UCLA to Coroner's van. Concerning the "dead body moving in helicopter" I really have no idea what happened. Maybe that the dummy came "back" to life. pale/
lolol/
The dummy moves and straightens up? :mrgreen: Maybe Murray did CPR to him on the bed and he came back to life! geek/
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmo7rFuA3n0&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Post by: PureLove on November 15, 2011, 08:59:22 PM
Try thinking of it this way. (to anyone in general)
Michael has been planning his death hoax, very intricately, for the last 20+ years and the big day to fake his death finally arrives. Don’t you think Michael would be there EVERY step of the way to make sure it goes EXACTLY as he’s planned and envisioned? Wouldn’t he want to feel the thrill of it for himself as it unfolds before the world’s eyes, with him being RIGHT THERE(!!) the whole time? He’s the director and the star of the greatest show on Earth and it’s his show. I really believe that it was just too important to Michael for him to leave everything in the hands of others - as much as he trusts them to help him - he had to be there too. And give enough clues at the right times for a very small audience (us) to pick up on and run with.
Well, I believe that Michael would prefer to be BEHIND the camera as he is the director of his show. The star of the show is Murray who represents Michael. So, I do not think Michael would prefer to be everywhere himself. This is a long term plan and I'm sure he arranged everything perfectly and left somethings in the hands of people he trusts, but still controlling everything. But this is just my opinion, and I can be wrong of course. :D
Post by: Andrea on November 15, 2011, 09:14:17 PM
Try thinking of it this way. (to anyone in general)
Michael has been planning his death hoax, very intricately, for the last 20+ years and the big day to fake his death finally arrives. Don’t you think Michael would be there EVERY step of the way to make sure it goes EXACTLY as he’s planned and envisioned? Wouldn’t he want to feel the thrill of it for himself as it unfolds before the world’s eyes, with him being RIGHT THERE(!!) the whole time? He’s the director and the star of the greatest show on Earth and it’s his show. I really believe that it was just too important to Michael for him to leave everything in the hands of others - as much as he trusts them to help him - he had to be there too. And give enough clues at the right times for a very small audience (us) to pick up on and run with.
Well, I believe that Michael would prefer to be BEHIND the camera as he is the director of his show. The star of the show is Murray who represents Michael. So, I do not think Michael would prefer to be everywhere himself. This is a long term plan and I'm sure he arranged everything perfectly and left somethings in the hands of people he trusts, but still controlling everything. But this is just my opinion, and I can be wrong of course. :D
Well, behind the camera or behind the sheet - he would still be there. Just my opinion. ;)
Post by: BeTheChange on November 15, 2011, 09:49:08 PM
I think the 'flat board' theory can also be laid to rest (hopefully). It is all about perception and angle.
This pic clearly shows that what was loaded into the van was not 'flat'.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/08/article-1205277-05FEE086000005DC-897_468x286.jpg)
There is either a dummy, a dead body, or a live body under that sheet.
With L.O.V.E. always.
That is flat. Definitely not the same one we saw before it was put into the helicopter. In the picture I posted, we see both of the bodies or dummies from the sky, from the same level. It's not about perception. Can you imagine how thick it would be if we see the one that was put into the helicopter from this angle of the pic you posted? It would look more thicker.
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8394/bodyf.jpg)
In the picture I posted, it is CLEAR that 'it' is not flat. How can 'it' be flat when 'it' extends from the guy's wrist to above his elbow?
The two pics you posted are both taken 'from the sky'....but the sky is a pretty vast space. The first pic is taken from more of a low(er), side angle....the second is taken from a higher (therefore further) side angle...at least at a far enough height/distance to cause loss of perception. IMO, because of that...it's difficult to get an accurate comparison....unless, you have another low, side angle shot (or better yet, an eye-level shot) of 'it', which is why I posted the pic I did.
It's just my opinion of course but it makes 'sense' to me. I realize that some don't see it the way I do and I'm not gonna argue with what you see. PureLove, you quoted my post, so I only wanted to explain how I see it because I didn't explain it 'better' in my earlier post. You could be right...but I can only go with what I see....and what I see was not flat while 'it' was being wheeled to the helicopter and 'it' wasn't flat while 'it' was being loaded into the van. That in NO way means I know what 'it' is (but I do have a theory lol).
As for the 911 call...has that been 'proven' to be real? Again, I could be wrong (nothing new there)...but based on what I have 'seen', I'm not basing any 'theories' on that call being real.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: monstertooty on November 15, 2011, 10:33:31 PM
The idea of a dead corpse being used is ridiculous assuming (i hate that word) the kids were there.
Seriously guys....a dead body for fun???? NO WAY!!
I have 6 kids...three of which are the same age as Michael's. If I came to them with the idea that Michael did they would be ALL about it. Kid's are awesome but no way in hell is a dead body rolling into this scenario.
@TS ambulance shmambulance :twisted: you are buying time, and stalling. A magician NEVER reveals the hows of the illusion......does he/she? It is counter productive for an audience to learn how a magician makes it happen. The magician loses his edge and ability to entertain if everyone knows how it is done.
I have absolutely LOVED this ride and a part of me doesnt want it to end. It will and IT will be awesome.
THANK YOU God, Michael,TS, Souza and all of the players and knowers for the AWAKENING. It has been an experiance that will never be forgotten and will always hold a special place in my heart.
L.O.V.E. all of you! - toot
Post by: BeTheChange on November 15, 2011, 10:56:37 PM
respect/ and God bless!
And I completely 'get' what you said about having a 'dead body' anywhere in this scenario. Not fun no matter what your age.
With L.O.V.E. always.
P.S. I've edited my post (an hour or two later lol) because it just 'hit' me that I completely misinterpreted tooty's comment about his kids ages. LMFAO...my brain is more fried than I thought it was....but I did 'get' what he meant eventually, so I guess there's hope :lol:. The rest of my post I left untouched because it still applies (post 'getting' it lol).
Post by: bec on November 15, 2011, 11:02:36 PM
These pics are from the vid Paula just posted. The first is the long slow part, and the second is from the supposed repeat; with the ambulance still in there but blocked by the tourbus. Is this possible for the first pic to have such an empty street--no firetruck in sight either, maybe wideangle lens? Maybe the beige shirt photog is with his butt against the firetruck? I don't see the big security in black in the second pic. I know this was discussed way back as well. I guess it was decided these were the same time, different distances from the gate?
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/ambu1.jpg)(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/ambu2.jpg)
Yes, the difference is distance and angle of perspective. You notice the large tree is not visible in the second pic either, nor the light fixture on the (viewer's) left side of the gate, but we know they are both there, as shown in other frames of the same video. If you were to go take pics of a similar scene at different angles and perspectives you could expect to see similar differences. Security guy is just walking around, he's bound to be in some shots of the scene and not in others.
Post by: bec on November 15, 2011, 11:13:27 PM
Do we know any additional information about the helicopter. What police agency is in charge of it, how many crew members, when it got to UCLA, etc...?
There were two helicopters on the roof that day. I wonder does UCLA have their own rescue/transport chopper or do they always contract with local law enforcement. confused/
If BHPD/LAFD could cooperate on the W911 call, why wouldn't LAPD also cooperate on the transport?
Perhaps the "movement" inside the helicopter was to unwrap MJ so he could breathe freely before being re-wrapped again. It would also explain why GI Joe was standing in the doorway blocking news choopers view. :?
edit*
To me the only way they'd have to be "in the know" is if it was LIVE MJ.
If it were a dummy it wouldn't matter...so what if they unwrapped it and saw it wasn't MJ, they could be told it was a decoy mission if they ever questioned it. suspicious//
We know that helicopter's serial number and that flight logs indicate that serial number has not been in service for years, and certainly did not make a recorded flight on 6/25/09. Demand that I prove it and I can't possibly, because I haven't a clue where that information went. But I saw it and I can tell you, there was no recorded flight for that serial number helicopter on 6/25/09.
"GI Joe" made me laugh out loud. For realz. He's A Real American Hero. These guys almost have to be in on it, with that much showboating, how can they not be. Besides, everyone is so sure the FBI is involved, why wouldn't the helicopter crew be in on it? I think MJ was hiding in that sheet from the media and from us the gen pub, not from the helicopter crew or the coroner's guys. It's a show for an audience, and that's you and me.
I agree with you that a dummy's use could be covered by calling it a decoy mission only because people are dumb and when their superior or someone official looking says something is the truth they believe, no questions asked. So yeah, I agree.
Post by: bec on November 15, 2011, 11:22:35 PM
Try thinking of it this way. (to anyone in general)
Michael has been planning his death hoax, very intricately, for the last 20+ years and the big day to fake his death finally arrives. Don’t you think Michael would be there EVERY step of the way to make sure it goes EXACTLY as he’s planned and envisioned? Wouldn’t he want to feel the thrill of it for himself as it unfolds before the world’s eyes, with him being RIGHT THERE(!!) the whole time? He’s the director and the star of the greatest show on Earth and it’s his show. I really believe that it was just too important to Michael for him to leave everything in the hands of others - as much as he trusts them to help him - he had to be there too. And give enough clues at the right times for a very small audience (us) to pick up on and run with.
Yeah this is where I'm at. You have to take into account your subject's (MJ) past pattern of behavior, at least a little bit, when trying to determine the truth about what happened that day, in my opinion. To ignore it is not wise, I don't think.
Post by: bec on November 15, 2011, 11:30:51 PM
I think the 'flat board' theory can also be laid to rest (hopefully). It is all about perception and angle.
This pic clearly shows that what was loaded into the van was not 'flat'.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/08/article-1205277-05FEE086000005DC-897_468x286.jpg)
There is either a dummy, a dead body, or a live body under that sheet.
With L.O.V.E. always.
That is flat. Definitely not the same one we saw before it was put into the helicopter. In the picture I posted, we see both of the bodies or dummies from the sky, from the same level. It's not about perception. Can you imagine how thick it would be if we see the one that was put into the helicopter from this angle of the pic you posted? It would look more thicker.
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8394/bodyf.jpg)
In the picture I posted, it is CLEAR that 'it' is not flat. How can 'it' be flat when 'it' extends from the guy's wrist to above his elbow?
The two pics you posted are both taken 'from the sky'....but the sky is a pretty vast space. The first pic is taken from more of a low(er), side angle....the second is taken from a higher (therefore further) side angle...at least at a far enough height/distance to cause loss of perception. IMO, because of that...it's difficult to get an accurate comparison....unless, you have another low, side angle shot (or better yet, an eye-level shot) of 'it', which is why I posted the pic I did.
It's just my opinion of course but it makes 'sense' to me. I realize that some don't see it the way I do and I'm not gonna argue with what you see. PureLove, you quoted my post, so I only wanted to explain how I see it because I didn't explain it 'better' in my earlier post. You could be right...but I can only go with what I see....and what I see was not flat while 'it' was being wheeled to the helicopter and 'it' wasn't flat while 'it' was being loaded into the van. That in NO way means I know what 'it' is (but I do have a theory lol).
As for the 911 call...has that been 'proven' to be real? Again, I could be wrong (nothing new there)...but based on what I have 'seen', I'm not basing any 'theories' on that call being real.
With L.O.V.E. always.
You are exactly right, BeTheChange.
And no, the 911 call hasn't been proved real. I'm not sure it can be proved either way. I'm not sure you can "prove" much about anything in life. I'm pretty sure you just have to look at the information- as much as you can, educate yourself- as best as you can, trust your instincts, and then make a determination.
Post by: bec on November 15, 2011, 11:34:24 PM
Having experiance as a single father has helped me decipher a few things. Michael was all up in it and saying to his kids...watch this short people. ::P Dads love to show off to their kids. He has played his favorite game of hide and seek with us. He is everywhere and nowhere. Think about it....why bother with all of this if it's not fun?
The idea of a dead corpse being used is ridiculous assuming (i hate that word) the kids were there.
Seriously guys....a dead body for fun???? NO WAY!!
I have 6 kids...three of which are the same age as Michael's. If I came to them with the idea that Michael did they would be ALL about it. Kid's are awesome but no way in hell is a dead body rolling into this scenario.
I'm with you on that too. Michael told everyone he was doing this for his kids, to show them what he does, now that they're old enough to appreciate it. He said it himself.
It is supposed to be fun, I agree.
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 15, 2011, 11:50:23 PM
Having experiance as a single father has helped me decipher a few things. Michael was all up in it and saying to his kids...watch this short people. ::P Dads love to show off to their kids. He has played his favorite game of hide and seek with us. He is everywhere and nowhere. Think about it....why bother with all of this if it's not fun?
The idea of a dead corpse being used is ridiculous assuming (i hate that word) the kids were there.
Seriously guys....a dead body for fun???? NO WAY!!
I have 6 kids...three of which are the same age as Michael's. If I came to them with the idea that Michael did they would be ALL about it. Kid's are awesome but no way in hell is a dead body rolling into this scenario.
@TS ambulance shmambulance :twisted: you are buying time, and stalling. A magician NEVER reveals the hows of the illusion......does he/she? It is counter productive for an audience to learn how a magician makes it happen. The magician loses his edge and ability to entertain if everyone knows how it is done.
I have absolutely LOVED this ride and a part of me doesnt want it to end. It will and IT will be awesome.
THANK YOU God, Michael,TS, Souza and all of the players and knowers for the AWAKENING. It has been an experiance that will never be forgotten and will always hold a special place in my heart.
L.O.V.E. all of you! - toot
Hey Tooty, between your 6 kids and my 6 kids, we could make our own sports team!! lolol/
Sorry guys, didn't mean to go off topic....I agree with what you have said Tooty...this AWAKENING is something we will never, ever forget!!! I feel Blessed to be on this journey with all of you and I LOVE You all very, very much!
bearhug
Post by: Suzy7 on November 16, 2011, 12:40:10 AM
@monstertooty I have thought that all along; a corpse seems so morbid. I didn't think Michael would use a corpse, or have a person die on that day, as a prop of sorts, for this hoax. But there is no actual proof the kids were even there, and IF they were, possibly seeing a dead body is no bueno. We can all only speculate; so a corpse could be a very real possibilty but I don't know if the kids would have seen it if it was.
As BeTheChange said, whatever did happen after UCLA was not even asked of us to figure out and we got ahead of ourselves. Maybe we should cross that bridge when we get to it, because there are many possibilities.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 01:14:28 AM
Scanned a bit some of the posts...
(http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Violent%20Animated%20Emoticons/explode%20emoticon.gif)
LOL Gema so what do you mean with this?
Don't you believe any of the theories presented here in a disorganized form?
Well...this is how i feel at this point... :-[
"All I know is that to me
You look like you're havin' fun"
"You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round, round, round"
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJv5qLsLYoo[/youtube]
hahah I loved your video!
I believe we are addicted to solving mysteries. But in this case we (or should I speak only for myself) get very frustrated because we can not prove any of the freaking scenarios our minds create /pull hair/ /scream/ /scream/!
Post by: curls on November 16, 2011, 01:32:01 AM
Having experiance as a single father has helped me decipher a few things. Michael was all up in it and saying to his kids...watch this short people. ::P Dads love to show off to their kids. He has played his favorite game of hide and seek with us. He is everywhere and nowhere. Think about it....why bother with all of this if it's not fun?
The idea of a dead corpse being used is ridiculous assuming (i hate that word) the kids were there.
Seriously guys....a dead body for fun???? NO WAY!!
I have 6 kids...three of which are the same age as Michael's. If I came to them with the idea that Michael did they would be ALL about it. Kid's are awesome but no way in hell is a dead body rolling into this scenario.
@TS ambulance shmambulance :twisted: you are buying time, and stalling. A magician NEVER reveals the hows of the illusion......does he/she? It is counter productive for an audience to learn how a magician makes it happen. The magician loses his edge and ability to entertain if everyone knows how it is done.
I have absolutely LOVED this ride and a part of me doesnt want it to end. It will and IT will be awesome.
THANK YOU God, Michael,TS, Souza and all of the players and knowers for the AWAKENING. It has been an experiance that will never be forgotten and will always hold a special place in my heart.
L.O.V.E. all of you! - toot
@Monster, I loved your post and was going to post a simliar one when I just woke up this morning after an amazing dream!
LaToya had made another of her 'watch the Illusionist and read between the lines' comments, but it'd been far more direct - something along the lines of 'he escaped but is making his way back'. I was out shopping with my daughter and she was looking at me like 'omg you were right all along', everywhere around us people were on their phones, the penny had dropped with everyone and there was this huge air of anticipation and excitement.
I digress, I'm sorry, but when I woke I just felt this huge happiness and urge to thank MJ - he even entertains me in my sleep!
As for your comments about TS stalling and the MaJician's role in this - I completely agree. He's leading us to believe we are capable of working it all out, while sniggering behind his screen all the time - he knows the illusion is unworkoutable! And another element of magic is that the audience doesn't REALLY want to know how it's done at all, not really, we WANT to be full of wonder and questions! Where's the fun in knowing it all? I know Michael is alive and I'm quite happy just watching his magic!
Also your mention of hide and seek made me realise just how often MJ managed to get that into interviews! LOL - this has to be his biggest game of hide and seek ever!
Michael told everyone he was doing this for his kids, to show them what he does, now that they're old enough to appreciate it. He said it himself.
@Bec, this is one of the quotes that really struck me as hugely meaningful when I first heard it, and has remained as 'proof' for my heart when my head has complained! Along with the one about trusting Murray 'with his life'!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 01:51:00 AM
I remember the time when I was talking to my hoax friends on michaeljackson.com of MJ's hide and seek game, of this being all a movie, that were my exact feelings at that time, 2 years ago, but when is it going to end? It's simmering for too long now.
Post by: heartwarrior on November 16, 2011, 01:51:57 AM
The true master wouldn't let the illusion become obvious because then magic is gone.
Post by: heartwarrior on November 16, 2011, 01:59:16 AM
@monstaa - DO we want to believe in Santa? YESSSS, the idea is great and if he didn't exist he should be innovated! :D
Post by: MJonmind on November 16, 2011, 02:37:22 AM
Gina, how did you know? :D
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/hideandseek.jpg)
Disappear and then appear again! I think he's doing this hoax for the children of the world, including all the young at heart!
Bec
Quote
I'm with you on that too. Michael told everyone he was doing this for his kids, to show them what he does, now that they're old enough to appreciate it. He said it himself.
And everyone thought he meant concerts. ;)
Thanks Bec, for your explanation to my question. You have an awesome memory of details!
I went to see Jack and Jill tonight with my daughter. Great movie with some good laughs! Lots of big stars in it, some with the briefest of appearances, such as Johnny Depp sitting with Al Pacino at a Laker’s Game. And of course in the few clips was number 24 playing. It was released on 11.11.11 naturally!
My point, maybe the FBI is involved in the making of this MJ death hoax. But then hey, maybe all of Hollywood’s involved too. Maybe this is the biggest piece of entertainment they’ve done to date. Remember how they turned down MJ time and time again from an acting part. Maybe that was part of the hoax, just like Andy Kaufman style. Maybe all along that was a joke on us/media. Maybe that’s why all the courtroom is another set. Gangster style (Smooth Criminal) there’s all the bad guys seeming to be after Michael and his money, with a paper trail to back it up. Fake documents everywhere! One big colossal hoax, involving a ton of people, the biggest extravaganza yet. The biggest secret ever kept, and it’s all for fun. And it's all Michael's!!
/bravo/
Curls
Quote
As for your comments about TS stalling and the MaJician's role in this - I completely agree. He's leading us to believe we are capable of working it all out, while sniggering behind his screen all the time - he knows the illusion is unworkoutable! And another element of magic is that the audience doesn't REALLY want to know how it's done at all, not really, we WANT to be full of wonder and questions! Where's the fun in knowing it all?
That's exactly what I was going to talk about but you guys said it much better. I really think TS is playing with us (in a loving way albino/ ). He is the best MaJician bar none!
He says 'Start of with 0 people involved and go from there!' :lol: :mrgreen: :lol: I agree that these ambulance and body questions, etc. are set up to be a maze of illusions of A, B, or C possibilities of the hows. /cook/
I love you TS! From the bottom of my heart! I really do!
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 16, 2011, 02:51:07 AM
Post by: nick_93 on November 16, 2011, 05:20:05 AM
L.O.V.E
Post by: MFFreedom on November 16, 2011, 06:26:08 AM
I guess we have to ask another question: Who's to say in these media videos it really WAS Michael? Who of the media can prove that they really filmed 'Michaels' corpse being transported. How did the media know that Michael will be transported by a helicopter ...? All ready with another heli? It's as if someone was inside with those guys transporting 'Michael' and then telling the helicopters that 'We're on our way with Michael'. VERY UNLIKELY-IF if is not a hoax. Which also means, (speculation) that the guys transporting a gurney with someone wrapped up in sheets on it only received an order to transfer 'that body' with the sherrifs' heli, change of plans. We have been told it was Michael, but they can tell us anything. I say, it was someone else who really died and the guys just had the order to bring the body up onto the roof to a heli for a transfer to the coroner. They did not know anyhting or who it was, ergo, they were used as a smoke screen. Without knowing it. Change of plans can always happen. But most don't ask further questions.
No. 2
is in works ... :-)
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 16, 2011, 07:30:42 AM
No.1
I guess we have to ask another question: Who's to say in these media videos it really WAS Michael? Who of the media can prove that they really filmed 'Michaels' corpse being transported. How did the media know that Michael will be transported by a helicopter ...? All ready with another heli? It's as if someone was inside with those guys transporting 'Michael' and then telling the helicopters that 'We're on our way with Michael'. VERY UNLIKELY-IF if is not a hoax. Which also means, (speculation) that the guys transporting a gurney with someone wrapped up in sheets on it only received an order to transfer 'that body' with the sherrifs' heli, change of plans. We have been told it was Michael, but they can tell us anything. I say, it was someone else who really died and the guys just had the order to bring the body up onto the roof to a heli for a transfer to the coroner. They did not know anyhting or who it was, ergo, they were used as a smoke screen. Without knowing it. Change of plans can always happen. But most don't ask further questions.
No. 2
is in works ... :-)
Very clear explanation, thank you for that ,i think the same, but can't explain it properly.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 07:39:15 AM
Gina, how did you know? :D
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/hideandseek.jpg)
Disappear and then appear again! I think he's doing this hoax for the children of the world, including all the young at heart!
I didn't know, I just felt he's playing hide and seek. Now I'm not so sure anymore.
Post by: PureLove on November 16, 2011, 07:57:13 AM
I think the 'flat board' theory can also be laid to rest (hopefully). It is all about perception and angle.
This pic clearly shows that what was loaded into the van was not 'flat'.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/08/article-1205277-05FEE086000005DC-897_468x286.jpg)
There is either a dummy, a dead body, or a live body under that sheet.
With L.O.V.E. always.
That is flat. Definitely not the same one we saw before it was put into the helicopter. In the picture I posted, we see both of the bodies or dummies from the sky, from the same level. It's not about perception. Can you imagine how thick it would be if we see the one that was put into the helicopter from this angle of the pic you posted? It would look more thicker.
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8394/bodyf.jpg)
In the picture I posted, it is CLEAR that 'it' is not flat. How can 'it' be flat when 'it' extends from the guy's wrist to above his elbow?
The two pics you posted are both taken 'from the sky'....but the sky is a pretty vast space. The first pic is taken from more of a low(er), side angle....the second is taken from a higher (therefore further) side angle...at least at a far enough height/distance to cause loss of perception. IMO, because of that...it's difficult to get an accurate comparison....unless, you have another low, side angle shot (or better yet, an eye-level shot) of 'it', which is why I posted the pic I did.
It's just my opinion of course but it makes 'sense' to me. I realize that some don't see it the way I do and I'm not gonna argue with what you see. PureLove, you quoted my post, so I only wanted to explain how I see it because I didn't explain it 'better' in my earlier post. You could be right...but I can only go with what I see....and what I see was not flat while 'it' was being wheeled to the helicopter and 'it' wasn't flat while 'it' was being loaded into the van. That in NO way means I know what 'it' is (but I do have a theory lol).
As for the 911 call...has that been 'proven' to be real? Again, I could be wrong (nothing new there)...but based on what I have 'seen', I'm not basing any 'theories' on that call being real.
With L.O.V.E. always.
I respect your opinion and point of view hon. We are all speculating here. But I see definitely two different bodies or dummies out there. We don't have a picture of the first body/dummy which was taken from the ground level like the pic you posted of the second body/dummy. That's what I'm trying to say. The first one (before the helicopter) looks so thick even from the sky shooting and it would be looking thicker if it was shot from the ground level. But we have a picture of the second one (after helicopter) from the ground level only. That is the reason why I prefer to compare both of their pictures from the sky level. Gives better info and make the perspective mistake less.
But the point is, we can not debunk ANY of the theories. So how are we going to find out which one is the right? I don't know but thank you for sharing your opinion. ;))
Post by: PureLove on November 16, 2011, 08:11:15 AM
@PureLove The 911 call as stated, was not proven to be real. So far we've had 2 911 call tape's that have been made public now, the one to BHPD and LAFD, one of which in my opinion, isn't 'real'. I agree with BeTheChange, you can't base a theory that involves a corpse on an unproven 911 call. Even if it is real, it doesn't prove a corpse was used.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say Suzy7. ANY of us know what really happened and how really happened. We are all talking about possibilities here. I didn't give the corpse example because I believe a corpse was used. To me, it CAN be possible just how the 911 call CAN be real. IF the purpose was to make things look real and help people to make them tell the things they had done for real, these are all possible imo. These are all our opinions and we can not debunk any of the theories. Therefore, my aim was and is NOT to prove anything because I can not. No one can do that and this is the big magic of the illusionist. ;)
Post by: wishingstar on November 16, 2011, 08:14:41 AM
"the minor details on the “how’s” are not very important (and may never been fully understood); however, for more than one reason, the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved."
I am wondering to what extent minor vs major are? How are we supposed to know the difference......just wondering. If there are reasons for major aspects of the "how's" to be known, then I would think it has to do with the message as a whole. If this is all a rouse to show the world it can be fooled into its own history (the death of MJ is history), the major "how factor" would have to be known. The small details of how a shadow is cast...probably not so much. I say shadow, because I brought up shadows/timing of day very early on. The major detail of how an ambulance can be seen taking the King of Pop away....pretty major detail.
-Perhaps, the entire thing was shot green-screened...ALL of it.
-Michael bought certain media outlets needed to produced the story....ex: TMZ/Hollywood TV. One or two tabloids can change the world. All that would be needed for the airways to start talking is video...shared to the world by them (TMZ/HollywoodTV). The news channels would clamor to get their hands on the video from them.
What just happened to forum???? It blanked while while writing?
Blessings
Post by: wishingstar on November 16, 2011, 08:23:39 AM
Sorry for the blip TS......my thought train has left the station, lol.
Got to run now.....I hope everyone has a great day!!! LOVE U!!!!
Blessings Always
Post by: son on November 16, 2011, 09:14:36 AM
The discrepancies in the testimonies are probably due to the double body AS WELL AS the a few of the people in the coroner's office and hospital being in the know (but not all of them). The dead body is needed for "everyone else".
I would argue that the "no body" theory is actually more diabolical than the real body theory. Michael controlling and influencing all of these people to pull off the hoax (no matter how "noble" the cause is) seems scary to me for the same reason I'm against the religion "Michael the Messiah" theories. That seem almost illuminati-esque (what better way for them to control us by planting a mole in the resistance) but I digress.
As far as the numerology goes perhaps many of those pieces of evidence were intentionally faked to pull off the hoax the Doctor at UCLA was possibly in on it but not the rest. A few people at the coroners were probably in on it but not all of them.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 09:45:31 AM
Quote
the moving body on the stretcher (which looks to me like the body was being moved rather than moving on it's own) technically happened when Michael was already "at the airport"
I was thinking if anybody knows the exact hour when LAX was closed that day.
We know the helicopters were leaving UCLA at about 6 o'clock in the afternoon, but I am not sure about the hour.
If LAX was closed at the same time there is no way Michael was in the helicopter himself, because he already had to be at the airport.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 16, 2011, 09:50:56 AM
Hi son, I liked your post.Quotethe moving body on the stretcher (which looks to me like the body was being moved rather than moving on it's own) technically happened when Michael was already "at the airport"
I was thinking if anybody knows the exact hour when LAX was closed that day.
We know the helicopters were leaving UCLA at about 6 o'clock in the afternoon, but I am not sure about the hour.
If LAX was closed at the same time there is no way Michael was in the helicopter himself, because he already had to be at the airport.
It was in the morning. Around 8 or 8:30 am if I recall correctly.
Post by: Andrea on November 16, 2011, 09:55:12 AM
A dead body brings in far too many complications, in my opinion. If it's to fool the doctor - the doc wouldn't work on a dead body for so long. If it's to fool the coroner - the body would've been properly (scientifically) identified instead of using just a driver's license. Muray is in on it - a body double wouldn't fool him and his actions and words (and staged photo ops) since June 25th very much support that he is in on the hoax. The paramedic's contradicting testimonies of that day tell me they're in on it and the infamous ambulance photo (staged) also supports this. Helicopter crew could be undercover agents. All in all, it seems like a lot of people are involved but it's really not that many if you think about it. In order for Michael to pull something of this magnitude off, he would need help - he "can't do it by myself." The famous expression "loose lips sink ships" is true in many cases but if anyone did step forward to say it was a hoax, the family would've lashed out and chances are, most sheeple wouldn't believe that person anyways. And think about - most everyone immediately dismissed the coroner van video of Michael hopping out the back of it. The video was later "de-bunked", naturally, but it had already served its purpose.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 09:59:21 AM
Hi son, I liked your post.Quotethe moving body on the stretcher (which looks to me like the body was being moved rather than moving on it's own) technically happened when Michael was already "at the airport"
I was thinking if anybody knows the exact hour when LAX was closed that day.
We know the helicopters were leaving UCLA at about 6 o'clock in the afternoon, but I am not sure about the hour.
If LAX was closed at the same time there is no way Michael was in the helicopter himself, because he already had to be at the airport.
It was in the morning. Around 8 or 8:30 am if I recall correctly.
If it was in the mornning and Michael really left during that time then it couldn't be him later, when the ambulance arrived at Carlwood and so on. What am I missing?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 10:00:52 AM
The airport evidence could've been faked (like everything else) for the purpose of an escape theory.
A dead body brings in far too many complications, in my opinion. If it's to fool the doctor - the doc wouldn't work on a dead body for so long. If it's to fool the coroner - the body would've been properly (scientifically) identified instead of using just a driver's license. Muray is in on it - a body double wouldn't fool him and his actions and words (and staged photo ops) since June 25th very much support that he is in on the hoax. The paramedic's contradicting testimonies of that day tell me they're in on it and the infamous ambulance photo (staged) also supports this. Helicopter crew could be undercover agents. All in all, it seems like a lot of people are involved but it's really not that many if you think about it. In order for Michael to pull something of this magnitude off, he would need help - he "can't do it by myself." The famous expression "loose lips sink ships" is true in many cases but if anyone did step forward to say it was a hoax, the family would've lashed out and chances are, most sheeple wouldn't believe that person anyways. And think about - most everyone immediately dismissed the coroner van video of Michael hopping out the back of it. The video was later "de-bunked", naturally, but it had already served its purpose.
The coroner must be in the hoax no matter what. But a dead body would work for the paramedics and even UCLA docs. After all, they all said the patient was dead when they arrived.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 16, 2011, 10:17:43 AM
Very good points WishingStar...especially the possibility that it may have ALL been green-screened (I was thinking about this while laying in bed last night cause God knows my bed isn't used much for sleeping :lol:). I've been leaning (quite heavily) on there actually having been an ambulance at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th....based on a lot of points already raised. And while I still think it does make 'sense' that this is what took place, the 'theory' of it ALL being an illusion plays on my mind as well (i.e. everything we THINK we've seen/know has been staged---"the eyes sometimes play tricks on us" <----a quote from Back).
TS advised that we keep it 'simple'...going as far as to tell us to start from 0 people being 'in on it'. A lot of what we've been discussing centers around us trying to keep the # of people 'in on it' to a minimum. But, as with everything TS writes, his statements/advice are open to interpretation. Most of us (myself included) have been thinking about/formulating 'theories' that would have involved only a FEW people to be aware of the hoax. But as TS once pointed out, FEW is relative:
Quote
Speaking of trying to debunk TS: one particular member kept dwelling on my statements about “few” in on the hoax—claiming that there were more than “few”, so this alone proves that TS is a fake {see Update 4d, http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=7194}. However, this is just another of many examples of critics not carefully reading what I said. The word “few” is always relative; and in comparison to all the stars in the sky, one thousand is a “few” stars. Taken in context, the “few” that I mentioned was in relation to this statement: “the entire state of California is not in on the hoax. ... only a relatively few people would need to be ‘in on it’” (in 4-36 & 4-38).
Depending on what MJ has planned....few can mean 3 people or 10 or 20...but it could also mean a lot more than that. Most of us believe that there is some sort of 'production' feel to all of this...like we're watching a movie in the making. IF that is the case, then we only SEE the 'cast' of the production (this could include Murray, the family, etc)...but, like with ANY 'production' or movie, we hardly ever see or even hear about the many people involved 'behind the scenes'.
Case in point:
The movie The Blair Witch Project is one of the lowest-budgeted movies ever made...the budget for the movie was $35,000. This sort of budget is laughable when compared to the budget of some Hollywood movies (and when compared to the budget 'the greatest show on earth' would have, IF there is a movie/production going on---think of all the 'sponsors'/product placement we've seen over the past 2+ years making 'appearances' in the hoax).
But EVEN with that low of a budget, this is the breakdown of cast and crew for The Blair Witch Project (as 'verified' by IMDB):
- 10 cast members (who we actually SEE in the movie)
- 35 crew members (specifically credited for their work in the movie)
- 39 others who are listed as 'other' crew members
- 70 people who received 'special thanks'
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0185937/fullcredits#cast (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0185937/fullcredits#cast)
Granted, some of the ones listed under 'special thanks' are previously listed in other sections of the credits (I don't have time to cross-check each name)...but not all of them are previously mentioned. Even without taking those people who've been 'thanked' into consideration...there was 84 people directly involved in making the movie (I would venture to guess the number is closer to 100/110 or more, when taking the 'special thanks' people into consideration).
The point is...we have NO clue what 'few' means in relation to the hoax because we do not know the full magnitude of it all. Based on what we've 'studied', most of us would say that whatever 'it' is, it's HUGE. Yet, we keep getting 'hung up' on the word 'few'. For all we know, there could be 200 people 'in the know' who are directly involved in this 'production'....and that could still be considered to be 'few' when compared to the magnitude of it all...or when compared to a film that had $35,000 as its budget.
In fact, TS further 'hinted' at this in the following quote:
Quote
I never gave any specific number other than “more than three”; but if you read all my posts, you will find that I myself did mention several specifically involved with the hoax: MJ, family, Conrad, Kenny Ortega, coroner, hospital, FBI, TMZ, etc. And there are many others (friends/celebrities) who may not have a direct role, and yet understand that it’s a hoax (much like us).
Based on the first sentence alone, we can make a fairly decent 'guess' that we're talking about more than 20 people (if the whole Jackson family knows, then that # would increase---likewise, it would/could increase based on the # of people involved from the hospital, FBI, TMZ, etc). The second sentence further confirms that we may be underestimating just how many the 'few' actually are. Would it be 'risky' to have 200 people 'in on it'? Of course. But having ANYONE 'in on it' other than MJ himself is 'risky' since anyone can make mistakes, miss-speak, or turn against you. No matter how many people MJ has entrusted with this whole thing...whether it's 20 or 200...I tend to think that Mike chose very wisely who to trust...as well as very wisely choosing who we SEE in front of the camera.
And finally (lol...sorry for the long post)...go back and re-read what TS wrote in the OP. He VERY directly 'supported' the theory that an ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th. He basically gave us the 'answer' to 7a. Now, was he helping us see the truth by giving us 'supporting' evidence? Or was he helping us see the truth by purposely throwing us off track?
I haven't decided yet....but I'm aware of either possibility.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: son on November 16, 2011, 10:22:12 AM
The airport evidence could've been faked (like everything else) for the purpose of an escape theory.
A dead body brings in far too many complications, in my opinion. If it's to fool the doctor - the doc wouldn't work on a dead body for so long. If it's to fool the coroner - the body would've been properly (scientifically) identified instead of using just a driver's license. Muray is in on it - a body double wouldn't fool him and his actions and words (and staged photo ops) since June 25th very much support that he is in on the hoax. The paramedic's contradicting testimonies of that day tell me they're in on it and the infamous ambulance photo (staged) also supports this. Helicopter crew could be undercover agents. All in all, it seems like a lot of people are involved but it's really not that many if you think about it. In order for Michael to pull something of this magnitude off, he would need help - he "can't do it by myself." The famous expression "loose lips sink ships" is true in many cases but if anyone did step forward to say it was a hoax, the family would've lashed out and chances are, most sheeple wouldn't believe that person anyways. And think about - most everyone immediately dismissed the coroner van video of Michael hopping out the back of it. The video was later "de-bunked", naturally, but it had already served its purpose.
I think the Airport is real mostly because I don't see any good in faking it (if he decided to stay). It's almost a nonfactor in the non-hoax community that all but forgotten (Jermaine's slip-up and the closing of LAX). I'll discuss my opinion of the body later (if you couldn't understand it from my last post). But in a nutshell a body is necessary for "keeping things simple".
Post by: Andrea on November 16, 2011, 10:39:11 AM
The airport evidence could've been faked (like everything else) for the purpose of an escape theory.
A dead body brings in far too many complications, in my opinion. If it's to fool the doctor - the doc wouldn't work on a dead body for so long. If it's to fool the coroner - the body would've been properly (scientifically) identified instead of using just a driver's license. Muray is in on it - a body double wouldn't fool him and his actions and words (and staged photo ops) since June 25th very much support that he is in on the hoax. The paramedic's contradicting testimonies of that day tell me they're in on it and the infamous ambulance photo (staged) also supports this. Helicopter crew could be undercover agents. All in all, it seems like a lot of people are involved but it's really not that many if you think about it. In order for Michael to pull something of this magnitude off, he would need help - he "can't do it by myself." The famous expression "loose lips sink ships" is true in many cases but if anyone did step forward to say it was a hoax, the family would've lashed out and chances are, most sheeple wouldn't believe that person anyways. And think about - most everyone immediately dismissed the coroner van video of Michael hopping out the back of it. The video was later "de-bunked", naturally, but it had already served its purpose.
I think the Airport is real mostly because I don't see any good in faking it (if he decided to stay). It's almost a nonfactor in the non-hoax community that all but forgotten (Jermaine's slip-up and the closing of LAX). I'll discuss my opinion of the body later (if you couldn't understand it from my last post). But in a nutshell a body is necessary for "keeping things simple".
The airport detail adds yet another element of intrigue to the events of that day. Maybe Michael did fly off but I really don't think he would. It's in my opinion that Michael was there that day and actively involved in his hoax, from an on-the-scene perspective. If I end up being wrong, I'll own that but right now, it's what I truly believe. I'm digging in my heels, lol. I think I understood what you were saying about the body making it more simple but I think a body would just add un-needed "dead weight". And going with a movie theory on top of everything, the people involved can be considered the cast and crew, non-disclosure agreements in place.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 16, 2011, 10:40:10 AM
One of the points that TS is asking discredit is the ambulance, there is the idea that it used two ambulances and one of the reasons it was this video and the explanation was that in reality the end of the video is in fact the initiation.
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
I see we're still divided on Dummy versus LIVE MJ
.....hung jury.... /judge/
TS.... /white flag/
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 10:58:27 AM
One of the points that TS is asking discredit is the ambulance, there is the idea that it used two ambulances and one of the reasons it was this video and the explanation was that in reality the end of the video is in fact the initiation.
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
This video is very puzzling. I am not sure what I see there. I know I see Murray, Alvarez, the 3 paramedics - 2 white and one black, but do I see someone on the stretcher? It's like I see something but I am not sure it's not an optical illusion.
I even tried to count how many pairs of legs are there but it's impossible for me to see /pull hair/
Post by: bec on November 16, 2011, 10:59:20 AM
But so much time... so many voices... so easy to doubt your instincts. Like all these new faces on the thread, anyone else notice how each tiai thread tends to bring unused avatars out of the woodwork? And for the most part they seemingly haven't read any of the information. Seemingly just wandered in and latched onto theories and ideas long long ago (pages and months) debunked and laid to rest. They dig these up, dust them off, prop them up and make camp under them again and again.
2 years of trying to make sense of what we have known from the start, with the prime obstacle being distraction agents, inspires one to steal their reserve. What speaks true; your instincts? Or the whispers from the peanut gallery?
He's sitting right there on the stretcher. 3 out of 7 original pics captured by Ben's crew. He's right there in front of everyone's eyes. Yet 2 years later "we" can't decide who or what went to UCLA that day. Ironic.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 16, 2011, 11:05:04 AM
One of the points that TS is asking discredit is the ambulance, there is the idea that it used two ambulances and one of the reasons it was this video and the explanation was that in reality the end of the video is in fact the initiation.
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
This video is very puzzling. I am not sure what I see there. I know I see Murray, Alvarez, the 3 paramedics - 2 white and one black, but do I see someone on the stretcher? It's like I see something but I am not sure it's not an optical illusion.
I even tried to count how many pairs of legs are there but it's impossible for me to see /pull hair/
To me this piece of evidence is critical....
The problem is pictures and video can be manipulated....
Is this actually happening or is it an illusion?
If that is Michael on the gurney, why does he wait to lie down when they are half way through the doors?
(http://serve.mysmiley.net/confused/confused0086.gif) (http://www.footballerpictures.co.uk)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 11:18:44 AM
Post by: son on November 16, 2011, 11:32:59 AM
Look! He's right there sitting up on the stretcher. The hoax was deciphered by the end of 2009.
But so much time... so many voices... so easy to doubt your instincts. Like all these new faces on the thread, anyone else notice how each tiai thread tends to bring unused avatars out of the woodwork? And for the most part they seemingly haven't read any of the information. Seemingly just wandered in and latched onto theories and ideas long long ago (pages and months) debunked and laid to rest. They dig these up, dust them off, prop them up and make camp under them again and again.
2 years of trying to make sense of what we have known from the start, with the prime obstacle being distraction agents, inspires one to steal their reserve. What speaks true; your instincts? Or the whispers from the peanut gallery?
He's sitting right there on the stretcher. 3 out of 7 original pics captured by Ben's crew. He's right there in front of everyone's eyes. Yet 2 years later "we" can't decide who or what went to UCLA that day. Ironic.
I'm not new to the hoax (or to this website), and I've seen the stretcher video/picture but I'm not convinced by it. In the helicopter we don't know if the "body" moved by itself (and it doesn't look like it did in my humble opinion). In the second video/picture series I don't think we can say for sure that the "body" was really from the stretcher. I simply think the airport escape and the double body theory is more logical. I'm not wavering in my opinion.
There are three sides to the double theory:
Version 1: Planted corpse
** Random body taken in placed in MJ's place.
Version 2: Convenient death
** Double's death is unrelated to hoax but was happened conveniently in time for the hoax.
Version 3: Murdered double
** A living double died in MJ's place. Conrad Murray (or whatever other conspirators a la murder conspiracy theory) were successful, but got the wrong guy. One issue with this theory is that MJ allowed the double to die in his place, but I simply say that it was necessary for the other factors and the double was 100% behind MJ in the mission.
** I believe version 3
Even in the movie theory it takes away from the secrecy of the hoax. If this is "all just a movie where EVERYONE is just an actor" does that mean Hollywood is basically behind the hoax? Is this basically a test limited to us as viewers? I say there are some insiders within each organization (Hospital, Hollywood, Coroners) but not everyone (very few IMO).
Post by: bec on November 16, 2011, 11:36:57 AM
Maybe so.
But did he do it to deceive people into believing a false hoax?
Or did he do it on Michael's command in order to perpetuate rumors of the truth?
Or was Michael really just there?
We already know in the past that Michael was only photographed by the paps and the media when he WANTED to be. No accidental MJ caught on camera EVER.
We know that it is Ben's crew who got these pics, and ONLY Ben's crew.
We know Ben's crew (or at least Ben) is in on the hoax.
So put 2 and 2 together and come up with the truth.
Post by: bec on November 16, 2011, 11:38:16 AM
I'm not new to the hoax (or to this website),
I didn't suggest that you were.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 11:39:34 AM
Post by: msgitm on November 16, 2011, 11:45:22 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 16, 2011, 11:50:44 AM
Post by: msgitm on November 16, 2011, 11:54:39 AM
Post by: stefy66 on November 16, 2011, 12:04:03 PM
Post by: bec on November 16, 2011, 12:06:41 PM
No question the coroner is in on it. I saved these pics off of Craig Harvey's FB account back in 09, taken at the annual coroners party. After questioning Craig he deleted the pics. He responded to several emails though, which is odd in itself, but it seemed his main goal was to make me believe MJ was dead. Of course I acted like I believed he was dead at first just to get answers. Will find the emails as well. But here are the pics. Each table honoured a celebrity that passed away that year. Take note of MJ's pic - pretty clear they knew the pic was not him. hmmm:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=21319.0;attach=2194;image)
Post by: msgitm on November 16, 2011, 12:13:24 PM
The post on Craig's FB wall with these photos was titles "LA Coroners Annual Party". They honoured all the deceased celebs of that year (2009), with photos on each table. But when it gets to MJ, there's a pic of E'Cas... NO PHOTO OF MJ. Seems pretty clear to me. They (the coroners) could have been confused with the picture IF E'CAS' NAME WASN'T WRITTEN ACROSS IT!!!
Post by: msgitm on November 16, 2011, 12:20:05 PM
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 16, 2011, 12:24:42 PM
One of the points that TS is asking discredit is the ambulance, there is the idea that it used two ambulances and one of the reasons it was this video and the explanation was that in reality the end of the video is in fact the initiation.
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
I see we're still divided on Dummy versus LIVE MJ
.....hung jury.... /judge/
TS.... /white flag/
bangbang
This is a picture which has always made me wonder, remember what La Toya said once when she was on her way into LAX Airport, something about magic, look over here and its over there! :?
Well, recently I am beginning to wonder if the "whole stretcher with all the paramedics and Dr Murray" was the distraction!!! afraid/ I know it way out there, but recently it struck me that why would that guy be holding out a coat to shield a person coming out of the ambulance as the stretcher is being wheeled into the hospital. :? The whole body shape, right down the the body language with the guy ducking down arms outstretched towards the outstretched coat, just "reminds me of the body language and posture of MJ at the 02".
OK " IM ready SHOOT ME DOWN NOW!! ;D /white flag/ :lol:
Its been on my mind for a while now, bearhug
Post by: Grace on November 16, 2011, 01:04:42 PM
Nobody's holding up a jacket and is this Doc Murray in a suit and not in a T-Shirt?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE)
Post by: jujubii on November 16, 2011, 01:09:07 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
I see we're still divided on Dummy versus LIVE MJ
.....hung jury.... /judge/
TS.... /white flag/
bangbang
This is a picture which has always made me wonder, remember what La Toya said once when she was on her way into LAX Airport, something about magic, look over here and its over there! :?
Well, recently I am beginning to wonder if the "whole stretcher with all the paramedics and Dr Murray" was the distraction!!! afraid/ I know it way out there, but recently it struck me that why would that guy be holding out a coat to shield a person coming out of the ambulance as the stretcher is being wheeled into the hospital. :? The whole body shape, right down the the body language with the guy ducking down arms outstretched towards the outstretched coat, just "reminds me of the body language and posture of MJ at the 02".
OK " IM ready SHOOT ME DOWN NOW!! ;D /white flag/ :lol:
Its been on my mind for a while now, bearhug
[/quote]
Okay, you are NOT the only one who's had... thoughts.... about that shot. o-o
Me too.
And several other people, so I've heard-
A while back, someone said that in the video footage of this scene- the 'body' being rolled into UCLA- they SWORE they saw what looked like the 'dead body' move and/or sit up.
If anyone could post a viddie of where this image here came from, that would be great.
So, if that is NOT a dummy, if it were MJ's live body trying to be dead before he makes his escape (to the airport, you see- thanks, Jermaine 8-) ), perhaps he moved- and the dude with the coat is trying to cover this from the public view.
Possible? :shock:
Post by: son on November 16, 2011, 01:35:42 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
I see we're still divided on Dummy versus LIVE MJ
.....hung jury.... /judge/
TS.... /white flag/
bangbang
This is a picture which has always made me wonder, remember what La Toya said once when she was on her way into LAX Airport, something about magic, look over here and its over there! :?
Well, recently I am beginning to wonder if the "whole stretcher with all the paramedics and Dr Murray" was the distraction!!! afraid/ I know it way out there, but recently it struck me that why would that guy be holding out a coat to shield a person coming out of the ambulance as the stretcher is being wheeled into the hospital. :? The whole body shape, right down the the body language with the guy ducking down arms outstretched towards the outstretched coat, just "reminds me of the body language and posture of MJ at the 02".
OK " IM ready SHOOT ME DOWN NOW!! ;D /white flag/ :lol:
Its been on my mind for a while now, bearhug
[/quote]
UCLA distracting from LAX, I'm all for it :)
Post by: paula-c on November 16, 2011, 01:48:47 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
I see we're still divided on Dummy versus LIVE MJ
.....hung jury.... /judge/
TS.... /white flag/
bangbang
This is a picture which has always made me wonder, remember what La Toya said once when she was on her way into LAX Airport, something about magic, look over here and its over there! :?
Well, recently I am beginning to wonder if the "whole stretcher with all the paramedics and Dr Murray" was the distraction!!! afraid/ I know it way out there, but recently it struck me that why would that guy be holding out a coat to shield a person coming out of the ambulance as the stretcher is being wheeled into the hospital. :? The whole body shape, right down the the body language with the guy ducking down arms outstretched towards the outstretched coat, just "reminds me of the body language and posture of MJ at the 02".
OK " IM ready SHOOT ME DOWN NOW!! ;D /white flag/ :lol:
Its been on my mind for a while now, bearhug
UCLA distracting from LAX, I'm all for it :)
[/quote]
And why something as complicated as leaving the house by ambulance, arriving at the hospital and after they leave the hospital in a helicopter if Michael could have come out of the house the night before or after when everything else he had calmed ..and if the entry of the hospital is in reality a scenario created? /pull hair/
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 16, 2011, 02:05:35 PM
And this version of the arrival at UCLA?
Nobody's holding up a jacket and is this Doc Murray in a suit and not in a T-Shirt?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE)
Why does this version have to be so blurred? (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-angry032.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
And why does it look like something is already wrapped in a white sheet on the gurney if MJ is laying on it? :?
Post by: paula-c on November 16, 2011, 02:15:38 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
I see we're still divided on Dummy versus LIVE MJ
.....hung jury.... /judge/
TS.... /white flag/
bangbang
This is a picture which has always made me wonder, remember what La Toya said once when she was on her way into LAX Airport, something about magic, look over here and its over there! :?
Well, recently I am beginning to wonder if the "whole stretcher with all the paramedics and Dr Murray" was the distraction!!! afraid/ I know it way out there, but recently it struck me that why would that guy be holding out a coat to shield a person coming out of the ambulance as the stretcher is being wheeled into the hospital. :? The whole body shape, right down the the body language with the guy ducking down arms outstretched towards the outstretched coat, just "reminds me of the body language and posture of MJ at the 02".
OK " IM ready SHOOT ME DOWN NOW!! ;D /white flag/ :lol:
Its been on my mind for a while now, bearhug
UCLA distracting from LAX, I'm all for it :)
And why something as complicated as leaving the house by ambulance, arriving at the hospital and after they leave the hospital in a helicopter if Michael could have come out of the house the night before or after when everything else he had calmed ..and if the entry of the hospital is in reality a scenario created? /pull hair/
[/quote]
If the photo of the ambulance was " another day", who can say that this scene to the entry in the hospital can also be 'another day " and to put more suspense to the scene of the hospital the man coming out of the ambulance and that moment is short in due course /pull hair/
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 16, 2011, 02:20:16 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
Watch the ambulance door towards the end of the frame
There also appears to be someone else stepping out of the ambulance dressed in Black and White with a hoodie.
....Who is that?..... And how many people were in that ambulance? :shock:
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 16, 2011, 02:27:29 PM
(http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/761/42706680.jpg)
As for Craig Harvey: badkolo, Mo and I had some email correspondence with him back in 2009. I will copy and paste some of it here because the info might be helpful:
About why certain stuff was blocked on the death certificate (08/27/2009):
Quote
I am not sure why some of the information is redacted. The death certificate is a State of California document, not a Coroner or County of Los Angeles document. They set the rules on what they deem as “private or confidential”. I can understand redacting surviving family names and addresses and social security numbers, but some of the other stuff escapes my logic capacity.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Chief Coroner Investigator & Chief of Operations
About the fake autopsy picture that was on the net back in 2009, the one with the brain being removed (08/28/2009):
Quote
It is not a picture taken at our office. None of the protective apparel worn matches what we wear and the water faucet is brass and everything in our office is stainless. We do a “Y” incision on the body and this is a straight line incision. There is a person in the background wearing civilian clothes with no protective apparel which we would not allow inside of an autopsy suite. The sides of the autopsy table are higher than ours and it appears to be a fixed table and all of ours are slightly slanted and on wheels.
My opinion is that the photo is not authentic and I base that on the area of the photo where the brain is being removed and there is “blood” on the lower portion (top) of the brain, but the upper (bottom) of the brain is “blood” free. The person’s hands are “blood” free and there are dark lines under the decedent’s neck area with whatever is under the neck/head area. The removal of the brain would not be quite so tidy.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Here is email correspondence between badkolo and Craig Harvey about whether the body was MJ's or not. (08/27/2009):
Quote
Dear Mr.Harvey,
My name is *** and I want to apologize before hand for taking up any of your time. I'm Writing a report for my own studies and while I am sure theorists must be bombarding you with questions pertaining to the Michael Jackson case I have one question which I hope you can assist me on. According to documents, Michael Jackson was processed by you and at your facilities. Can you without a doubt state that the body that was handled and the prints that where taken are those of the entertainer Michael Jackson. Basically I am asking if you can confirm That Michael Jackson has actually passed away and the body processed was his.
I appreciate your time and I thank you in advance, ***
Quote
I can make that statement without any doubt whatsoever.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
OK so your saying that YES in fact you can confirm he is indeed dead?
Quote
That is correct.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
About the coroner's van where 'MJ' jumped out of:
Quote
That is not our van in the video. It is obvious to me that it belongs to a production/prop company.
California “Exempt” plated vehicles no longer have an “E” enclosed in an octagon preceding the number. Due to the number of exempt vehicles in California, the exempt plate is all numerals (I believe 7 digits) and the word “exempt” appears over the numerals, below the name of the state. The one exception might be vehicles owned by the State of California that may still have an “E” inside a diamond.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Ed Winter claimed in another email:
Quote
The vehicle seen in the video is not ours. We have run the license number and it is not a valid number.
So that was sent to Craig Harvey, asking how it could be that both licence plates are the same:
Quote
On June 25th, which van are you referring to? The one that went to the helicopter?
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
Well, I also saw ONE van on June 25th... It went to the helicopter, a body was loaded into it, and off it went into the parking garage. I have attached a photo of it, and it shows the license plate with number 1236020.
Quote
That is our van and the guy in blue works for me. The license plate # of the van in the video is (from what I have been able to discern) 1276021, and does not match any vehicle in our fleet.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
I'm confused now. I already knew the van in the video showing Michael Jackson jumping out of it is not yours. But that video clearly shows the same license plate number. Are you telling me there were TWO vans on June 25th?
Quote
They are not the same.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
Hereby a picture of both licence plates. I loaded the photos into Photoshop and zoomed in om them. What appeared to be a 3 in the left plate is clearly a 7 when you soon in on the photo of the van next to the helicopter.
I know the leaked video is a fake, but your office states that the licence plate number 1276020 is not of one of your vans. How come the original van from the live CNN footage has that number also?
The licence number on the CNN-van also looks strange, because the 2's don't match, the 7 is not straight and the 6 looks written on it, it's not round at the bottom.
Now can you tell me, is the van showed on the left (from CNN footage) your van?
Quote
Do you see the bumper sticker that says “Don’t Abandon Your Baby” underneath the license plate of the van near the helicopter? Do you see it in the video? Do you see our slogan on the side of the van in the video “Law and Science Serving the Community”?
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
Yes, I see the sticker and I'm familiar with it. But...did you know that the man wearing black pants and a beige shirt removed it from the van before they pulled away from the helicopter? Please, have a look at this video, and pay attention as from 6.14 until 6.40. You can clearly see that this man removes the sticker, folds it in his hands and then gets back into the van.
Here is the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo
Quote
He took off his disposable gloves. The door opening handle is located inside the license plate frame area.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
But that leaves these questions unanswered:
I know the leaked video is a fake, but your office states that the licence plate number 1276020 is not of one of your vans. How come the original van from the live CNN footage has that number also?
The licence number on the CNN-van also looks strange, because the 2's don't match, the 7 is not straight and the 6 looks written on it, it's not round at the bottom.
Now can you tell me, is the van showed on the left (from CNN footage) your van?
I can't see an answer to that, so I think he never answered it.
About the DC and it not being signed by a doctor:
Quote
The issue as to whether a person’s death falls under the jurisdiction of the Coroner under California law depends on the immediate/suspected cause of death. In certain cases, a private physician may sign a death certificate and the Coroner need not be involved. These deaths are always due to natural causes. In other cases, by law, only the Coroner can sign the death certificate due to the immediate or suspected cause/manner of death, e.g. gunshot wound, hanging, accident, suicide, homicide, etc.
The term “under the care of a doctor” or “had a doctor in attendance” means on its’ face that a person had been seen by a physician for a minimum specific period of time and that physician had a medical opinion as to the cause of death. It does not necessarily mean that there was a physician physically standing next to the patient when they died. In most cases, ER doctors do not sign death certificates for the many patients they pronounce dead upon arrival or shortly thereafter each year at their hospitals. Either they legally cannot sign a death certificate due to the cause of death or they simply have limited information on which to base a medical opinion.
Because no physician came forward to sign a death certificate, the Coroner had to be notified. Even if a physician had come forward to sign a death certificate, the cause of death would have to be based on documented/known medical history and due to natural causes with no external factors involved. If someone had signed a death certificate with inaccurate information, other physicians who know the patient or family members could contact the Coroner and the Coroner could take jurisdiction if the information is found to have merit.
Lastly, the vast majority (99%) of physicians will not jeopardize their profession or their livelihood by signing a bogus death certificate. They have too much at stake should their fraud be detected and reported.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
After being asked why he said after MJ's death: ""I am here to announce that the coroner has concluded the autopsy for mister Michael Jackson" instead of on mister Michael Jackson?
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It is probably mostly semantics. I suspect it has to do with keeping in mind that our clients are people first not an object.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Who is it?:
Quote
Dear mister Harvey,
I have seen your statement on TV about the famous Michael Jackson autopsy.
There is something bothering me about your statement. At one point you say:
I am here to announce that the coroner has concluded the autopsy for mister Michael Jackson.
Well, shouldn't that the an autopsy on or of Michael Jackson?
Can you confirm that the LA Coroner's Office actually performed an autopsy on the body of Michael Joseph Jackson (1958) in June 2009, or do you believe the autopsy has been performed by another coroner's office?
Quote
It is probably mostly semantics. I suspect it has to do with keeping in mind that our clients are people first not an object.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
That is understandable, I know that things can be taken differently. It's good to know that you still see your clients as persons, and not objects. But can you please answer my other question? After that I promise I won't bother you again.
Can you confirm that the LA Coroner's Office actually performed an autopsy on the body of Michael Joseph Jackson (1958) in June 2009, or do you believe the autopsy has been performed by another coroner's office?
Quote
I can confirm that the Los Angeles County Department of Coroner performed the autopsy on Mr. Jackson.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
You are a smart man mister Harvey, I thought you would say that, that is why I asked specifically about mr. Michael Joseph Jackson, born on August 29, 1958, died June 25, 2009. Can you confirm that the Los Angeles County Department of Coroner performed the autopsy on that specific person?
Because rumor has it that Mr. Ed Winter said that the licence plate number on the coroner's van is not a valid one and is not a van of your office.
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I don’t understand what one has to do with the other.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
If the van at the helicopter as we have seen on the live CNN footage was not an official coroner's van, there is a big reason to look at all the other stuff too surrounding his death. I'm not saying he isn't, but a lot of things don't add up here. So I will try once again:
Can you confirm that the Los Angeles County Department of Coroner performed the autopsy on the body of Michael Joseph Jackson (born August 29, 1958, died June 35, 2009), or do you believe the autopsy has been performed by another coroner's office?
Quote
The van at the helicopter was an official Coroner van and was a 2007 Ford. The video depicts a Ford van, but there are obvious differences between that van and our vans. The van in the video is clearly a production/prop van belonging to a studio or company that provides vehicles to film productions.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
OK fair enough, but my most important question is still unanswered, let me try again:
Can you confirm that the Los Angeles County Department of Coroner performed the autopsy on the body of Michael Joseph Jackson (born August 29, 1958, died June 25, 2009), or do you believe the autopsy has been performed by another coroner's office?
Quote
Yes I can confirm that and no I do not believe that the autopsy was performed by another Coroner’s office.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Quote
Thank you, and of course I meant June 25, not 35. Can you also confirm that the body of Michael Jackson that you office performed an autopsy on was without doubt the body of Michael Joseph Jackson?
No answer after that.
With a miss Gonzalez regarding the leaked AR (April 2011):
Quote
I read some media articles concerning the autopsy result of Michael Jackson. Are these real, or again fake ones?
Also, why aren't we hearing anything about the second autopsy?
Last question. Since Michael Jackson's legal name is Michael Joe Jackson, instead of Michael Joseph Jackson, wouldn't that mean the death certificate is invalid? I found a document from the government where it says that ones TRUE NAME should be stated, with aka's if relevant.
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The official coroner report for Mr. Jackson is available to the public for $82.00. Our Department did not perform the second autopsy.
If you are interested in ordering a copy of the Coroner report, please send the abovementioned fee to:
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I don't understand. Wasn't the autopsy report already published in the media?
Quote
The media has obtained a copy from our office. I am aware that copies are floating around. You are more than welcome to look for it in that manner. However, if you would like a complete, official copy from our office, the fee for it is $82.00.
Silvia Gonzalez
Quote
Hello ms Gonzalez,
I understand, but that copy would be no different than the one I have already, right?
If I have questions about the autopsy report, who can I contact for that?
Quote
I wouldn’t be able to tell you if what you have is the same unless I took a look at it. As for who you can contact, that would depend on the nature of the question. If your questions is related to the autopsy, you may contact Dr. Rogers at (323) 343-0715. If the question is related to the field investigation, you may contact Investigator Fleak at (323) 343-0714. All other questions, please contact (323) 343-0512 and they will try and assist you.
Thank you.
Silvia Gonzalez
Quote
Do you know why the report wasn't sealed? This is a homicide case and the case is not closed yet. Is it standard procedure to release an autopsy report before a homicide investigation is completed? The report was obtained by TMZ pretty soon after it was finalized and the investigation was still on-going.
This is the copy I have of the report: http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0208_mj_case_report_wm.pdf. I would appreciate it if you could check if it is the report coming from your office.
Could you give me the email addresses of Dr. Rogers and Investigator Fleak?
Again, no answer after that.
I just thought I'd throw that in here, maybe it helps. Harvey denies there was a second autopsy, Gonzalez said they didn't perform the second auopsy. And I think Harvey's answer about the bogus DC says enough, i.e. read between the lines.
Post by: MJonmind on November 16, 2011, 02:34:40 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
Ijustcantstoploving
Quote
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/file:///C:\Users\THEFAM~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.gif)
This is a picture which has always made me wonder, remember what La Toya said once when she was on her way into LAX Airport, something about magic, look over here and its over there! (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/file:///C:\Users\THEFAM~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif)Well, recently I am beginning to wonder if the "whole stretcher with all the paramedics and Dr Murray" was the distraction!!!
E'Cas could totally be sitting up on the stretcher, since we don't get a really good look at him (nor at any of the so-called MJ sightings that day). And in fact he could have volunteered to be wrapped in breathable sheets from start to finish (healthy alive of course).
Which brings me back to say that the lower legs on Murray going into the hospital seem extra long to me... ;)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=21319.0;attach=2194;image)
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 16, 2011, 02:34:54 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
Watch the ambulance door towards the end of the frame
There also appears to be someone else stepping out of the ambulance dressed in Black and White with a hoodie.
....Who is that?..... And how many people were in that ambulance? :shock:
You mean this one?
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forumpics/whoisit.jpg)
I wonder that too. Definitely something like a fedora on his head or whatever it is he's covering his head with, but unfortunately we have no stills after this shot. But if that's Mike, that means he's not on the stretcher. If it's not him, then what's up with the fedora and the security guy protecting him with his jacket? Hmmmmmmmmmm.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 16, 2011, 03:43:19 PM
I'm probably a little late in bringing this up but doesn't the "no body" theory conflict with the LAX airport evidence (ie: the escape theory)? The moving body on the stretcher (which looks to me like the body was being moved rather than moving on it's own) technically happened when Michael was already "at the airport". I'm still a proponent of the double died theory mostly because I see how extremely dedicated MJ's fans are (especially the impersonators). In fact, I'd say the double theory is much more simplistic than the no body theory (which would involve a lot more parties that would need to keep their mouths shut.) I don't think Michael directly killed the person (being optimistic at least) they were just willing to take MJ's place in the bed while Murray (and the other forces behind the death) did what they did. Michael was probably staying somewhere else that night and would later leave for the airport the next day. Murray probably recognized that the man he killed wasn't Michael Jackson and believed that could help him win the case (more or less).
The discrepancies in the testimonies are probably due to the double body AS WELL AS the a few of the people in the coroner's office and hospital being in the know (but not all of them). The dead body is needed for "everyone else".
I would argue that the "no body" theory is actually more diabolical than the real body theory. Michael controlling and influencing all of these people to pull off the hoax (no matter how "noble" the cause is) seems scary to me for the same reason I'm against the religion "Michael the Messiah" theories. That seem almost illuminati-esque (what better way for them to control us by planting a mole in the resistance) but I digress.
As far as the numerology goes perhaps many of those pieces of evidence were intentionally faked to pull off the hoax the Doctor at UCLA was possibly in on it but not the rest. A few people at the coroners were probably in on it but not all of them.
you say a 'real body' theory is less complicated than a no body theory... really?? i mean ethical dilema is just the start of the myriad of issues that a real body theory can pose... a dummy is far less complicated than a real body. and the comment abt escape LAX still applies if there was a dummy...
you say the 'body' was for everyone elses benefit. really? did we see the body? or did we see a bunch of poorly maniplulated low grade photoshopped images... so poor they could have been a dummy, or mj posing, or a mish mash of mj pics sudperimposed to create image...
regarding the michael manipulating to be able to pull off this hoax, you have to realise that he is one of the few people on earth who would be able to do this, with resources and people in the right places, money etc that would enable him to do this.
re: illuminati - not even going there in detail. but mj spoke abt these things himself. these are no mere theories posted on MJDHI forum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lJmQFlosUw is just one example that he references.
and as for the numerogly - there have been too many incidences for it to me coincidence. its all planned down to the last digit.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 16, 2011, 03:56:51 PM
And why something as complicated as leaving the house by ambulance, arriving at the hospital and after they leave the hospital in a helicopter if Michael could have come out of the house the night before or after when everything else he had calmed ..and if the entry of the hospital is in reality a scenario created? /pull hair/
If the photo of the ambulance was " another day", who can say that this scene to the entry in the hospital can also be 'another day " and to put more suspense to the scene of the hospital the man coming out of the ambulance and that moment is short in due course /pull hair/
@paulac
i agree with you 100%. why make it so complicated. why not go from carolwood straight to LAX. why go to UCLA at all. not nessesary if all photos were staged on other days. which means has to be a dummy in bag.
but then in the heli where the bag 'sits up' indicates person inside. so that then confuses me. there had to be a switch.
NOTE to the peson who didn't understand the significance of these pictures*
The post on Craig's FB wall with these photos was titles "LA Coroners Annual Party". They honoured all the deceased celebs of that year (2009), with photos on each table. But when it gets to MJ, there's a pic of E'Cas... NO PHOTO OF MJ. Seems pretty clear to me. They (the coroners) could have been confused with the picture IF E'CAS' NAME WASN'T WRITTEN ACROSS IT!!!
@MSGITM - thank you. have never seen this before. its brilliant. love you! /bravo/
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 16, 2011, 05:17:01 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
Watch the ambulance door towards the end of the frame
There also appears to be someone else stepping out of the ambulance dressed in Black and White with a hoodie.
....Who is that?..... And how many people were in that ambulance? :shock:
You mean this one?
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forumpics/whoisit.jpg)
I wonder that too. Definitely something like a fedora on his head or whatever it is he's covering his head with, but unfortunately we have no stills after this shot. But if that's Mike, that means he's not on the stretcher. If it's not him, then what's up with the fedora and the security guy protecting him with his jacket? Hmmmmmmmmmm.
Yup, That would be the one. :shock:
Great :|.... now we have two phantom figures in the picture....one on the stretcher and one coming out of the ambulance.
Which one is MJ? suspicious//
/white flag/
Post by: paula-c on November 16, 2011, 06:17:32 PM
Quote
The van at the helicopter was an official Coroner van and was a 2007 Ford. The video depicts a Ford van, but there are obvious differences between that van and our vans. The van in the video is clearly a production/prop van belonging to a studio or company that provides vehicles to film productions.
Craig R. Harvey, F-ABMDI
Everything is a film nothing of what we saw the June 25 happened that day
Post by: jujubii on November 16, 2011, 08:12:44 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
afraid/ HOLY--!
THAT'S the scene I was talking about! Either here, or there or some other thread... I'm lost now. XD
But is that not amazing?
How can non-believers explain this? Who's that, WHY does he need to be covered with a coat?
And why, covered up in such a... MJ w/bodyguard-ish fashion?
So clever, too, because anyone can miss this...
:idea:
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 16, 2011, 09:07:42 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
afraid/ HOLY--!
THAT'S the scene I was talking about! Either here, or there or some other thread... I'm lost now. XD
But is that not amazing?
How can non-believers explain this? Who's that, WHY does he need to be covered with a coat?
And why, covered up in such a... MJ w/bodyguard-ish fashion?
So clever, too, because anyone can miss this...
:idea:
Exactly, why would anyone need to be shielded from the camera's? If Michael's life were in peril, would you care if the media is snapping pictures? :?
He also came out last...was that intentional? Or was this person sitting further up front in the ambulance.
So who is this mysterious person?
Post by: wishingstar on November 16, 2011, 09:13:50 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
afraid/ HOLY--!
THAT'S the scene I was talking about! Either here, or there or some other thread... I'm lost now. XD
But is that not amazing?
How can non-believers explain this? Who's that, WHY does he need to be covered with a coat?
And why, covered up in such a... MJ w/bodyguard-ish fashion?
So clever, too, because anyone can miss this...
:idea:
Call me crazy......but, if Michael is in this scene, I think he just might be the paramedic wheeling the gurney in....the one with darker hair and sort of slouched inward. Something about his walk, his "posterior " :oops: I wrote this once before....I can't believe I am writing it again, I am ten shades of red right now :lol: Sooo.....that's what I think on this picture.....it's too obvious otherwise for me. But, Michael wheeling himself in, that I'd buy.
Blessings Always
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 16, 2011, 09:41:56 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
afraid/ HOLY--!
THAT'S the scene I was talking about! Either here, or there or some other thread... I'm lost now. XD
But is that not amazing?
How can non-believers explain this? Who's that, WHY does he need to be covered with a coat?
And why, covered up in such a... MJ w/bodyguard-ish fashion?
So clever, too, because anyone can miss this...
:idea:
Call me crazy......but, if Michael is in this scene, I think he just might be the paramedic wheeling the gurney in....the one with darker hair and sort of slouched inward. Something about his walk, his "posterior " :oops: I wrote this once before....I can't believe I am writing it again, I am ten shades of red right now :lol: Sooo.....that's what I think on this picture.....it's too obvious otherwise for me. But, Michael wheeling himself in, that I'd buy.
Blessings Always
OMG...I was literally just writing the exact same thing as you Wishingstar!! "If" I had to pick, I'd say that MJ would be that ambulance guy also..notice how the bodyguard steps in front of him fast, to cause a distraction, making you believe that he is trying to hide the guy coming out of the ambulance! MJ "Hiding in Plain sight", would be my guess.
Although to me this is "irrelevant" in the BIG Picture...JMO though.
Blessings and LOVE to all!!
Post by: bec on November 16, 2011, 10:31:55 PM
We kicked this around like crazy 2 years ago. It never went anywhere. MJ is on the stretcher, clearly. He's right there. Why ditch this crystal clear image in favor of some obscure half a frame who-knows-who guy clearly having his view of the stretcher obstructed? Distractions.
And this is how it goes until TS floats back in to say who's right and who's missing the boat and grant us a puzzle piece... or not. The theories... they get a little out there in left field sometimes.
To me it's pretty clear, more clear then it's been in 2 years. But that's just me and it's entirely possible I'm this confident because I'm a lunatic.
Post by: Okay Annie on November 16, 2011, 10:46:50 PM
Post by: RK on November 16, 2011, 10:47:35 PM
Quote
Call me crazy......but, if Michael is in this scene, I think he just might be the paramedic wheeling the gurney in....the one with darker hair and sort of slouched inward. Something about his walk, his "posterior " I wrote this once before....I can't believe I am writing it again, I am ten shades of red right now Sooo.....that's what I think on this picture.....it's too obvious otherwise for me. But, Michael wheeling himself in, that I'd buy.Me three...I was watching the stride of the paramedic and thinking exactly along the same lines. I do remember disecting this way back last year some time and we never seemed to come to a satisfactory conclusion. Sleight of hand is always involved in a good magic trick. An attention grabbing diversion is created -> over there !! while under your nose<- :shock: he slips right in. A very plausible scenario. Thanks for bringing up this topic we had left 'behind' :lol: wishingstar.
Blessings Always
OMG...I was literally just writing the exact same thing as you Wishingstar!! "If" I had to pick, I'd say that MJ would be that ambulance guy also..notice how the bodyguard steps in front of him fast, to cause a distraction, making you believe that he is trying to hide the guy coming out of the ambulance! MJ "Hiding in Plain sight", would be my guess.
Although to me this is "irrelevant" in the BIG Picture...JMO though.
Blessings and LOVE to all!!
Have a blessed and prosperous day, you two lovelies.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 16, 2011, 11:10:58 PM
bangbang bangbang WTF?? WTF?? /woohoo/ /cook/ /cook/ lolol/ WTF?? bangbang bangbang crash/ crash/ crash/ :shock: :? :roll: /bravo/ /cook/ mj_bad/ lolol/
And while he is doing all that, he goes like this:
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110823053756/gleeusers/images/c/c9/Mj-thriller-popcorn-o.gif)
And like this:
/toldya/
Because he will torture us until the time is right-thirty. In the meanwhile, we go like this:
/overreacting/ /overreacting/ /pull hair/ /scream/ /white flag/ bangbang bangbang bangbang crash/ errrr bounce/ bounce/ argue/ argue/ suspicious// pale/ OMG! WTF??
And while doing that, we go like this:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwWuPpDQ-fKPg-7Xa4OmvBk0lAcbGQQsN88kYg8SscTekOu1nxKA)
And like this:
(http://www.cat-health-behavior.com/images/spring-crazy-cats-21243761.jpg)
BUT!
(http://th851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/_Scribble/LOL%20Funny%20cats/th_lolcatsdotcomhhm5f4skf7r69xwy.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 16, 2011, 11:35:21 PM
TS, lurking the thread is like this:
bangbang bangbang WTF?? WTF?? /woohoo/ /cook/ /cook/ lolol/ WTF?? bangbang bangbang crash/ crash/ crash/ :shock: :? :roll: /bravo/ /cook/ mj_bad/ lolol/
And while he is doing all that, he goes like this:
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110823053756/gleeusers/images/c/c9/Mj-thriller-popcorn-o.gif)
And like this:
/toldya/
Because he will torture us until the time is right-thirty. In the meanwhile, we go like this:
/overreacting/ /overreacting/ /pull hair/ /scream/ /white flag/ bangbang bangbang bangbang crash/ errrr bounce/ bounce/ argue/ argue/ suspicious// pale/ OMG! WTF??
And while doing that, we go like this:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwWuPpDQ-fKPg-7Xa4OmvBk0lAcbGQQsN88kYg8SscTekOu1nxKA)
And like this:
(http://www.cat-health-behavior.com/images/spring-crazy-cats-21243761.jpg)
BUT!
(http://th851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/_Scribble/LOL%20Funny%20cats/th_lolcatsdotcomhhm5f4skf7r69xwy.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
bwahahahahahaha... love it.
first time i have laughed whilst reading this thread. lol. thank you for the comedy relief. was greatly needed, as my brain is fried. thank you!
Post by: jujubii on November 16, 2011, 11:45:17 PM
QuoteCall me crazy......but, if Michael is in this scene, I think he just might be the paramedic wheeling the gurney in....the one with darker hair and sort of slouched inward. Something about his walk, his "posterior " I wrote this once before....I can't believe I am writing it again, I am ten shades of red right now Sooo.....that's what I think on this picture.....it's too obvious otherwise for me. But, Michael wheeling himself in, that I'd buy.Me three...I was watching the stride of the paramedic and thinking exactly along the same lines. I do remember disecting this way back last year some time and we never seemed to come to a satisfactory conclusion. Sleight of hand is always involved in a good magic trick. An attention grabbing diversion is created -> over there !! while under your nose<- :shock: he slips right in. A very plausible scenario. Thanks for bringing up this topic we had left 'behind' :lol: wishingstar.
Blessings Always
OMG...I was literally just writing the exact same thing as you Wishingstar!! "If" I had to pick, I'd say that MJ would be that ambulance guy also..notice how the bodyguard steps in front of him fast, to cause a distraction, making you believe that he is trying to hide the guy coming out of the ambulance! MJ "Hiding in Plain sight", would be my guess.
Although to me this is "irrelevant" in the BIG Picture...JMO though.
Blessings and LOVE to all!!
Have a blessed and prosperous day, you two lovelies.
A blessed and prosperous day to you three lovelies! penguin/
I remember a discussion about that a long time ago, I thought we'd forgotten that bit.
In my near-decade of being a powerfully devoted female fan of Michael's with some...well, powerful feelings for him,
I would know that there is NO shame in recognizing Michael's behind. which by the way is... really...really nice... ;)) I'MSOSORRY!)
Especially if there's a purpose involved! We're investigating, remember? ;D
No stone unturned!
LMAO at those last two replies!! Those pictures gave us a much-needed laugh!! :lol: :lol:
Post by: Grace on November 17, 2011, 12:42:24 AM
When the attention is on the patient, there are two guys staying behind - one is lifting a jacket up to protect against paparazzi (standing at the left, visible in the "left side" video) and another tall guy is stepping backwards, standing close to the jacketlifter (almost not visible in the "left side" video but in full sight in "right side" video. IMO the impression of a fedora is due to the shoulder pad of the jacket the tall guy in the "right side" video is taking on.)
Three questions still:
- who is that tall guy stepping out of the ambulance / walking backwards while putting his jacket over his shoulders ?
- why is he stepping backwards and hanging around the ambulance as if there was something / somebody important / to protect / and nothing should not be left in the ambulance? This is an unusual behaviour for regular people. I mean one would watch one's step and not walk backwards?
I think this is standard bodyguard's behaviour thinking around the key event and securing from behind.
This woiuld mean they executed standard MJ protection procedure - be it MJ, a dummy or somebody else arriving at UCLA.
- where has the person sitting up gone in the "right side" video?
In this the videos differ. There is nobody sitting up on the stretcher in the "right side" video. It is very blurry but one would see dark hair against bright background.
IMO several photos were cleverly shopped into the gifs that form the sequence of the "left side" video.
One of the shopped faces does not fit in size and colour. We had enhanced sections of these gifs in 2009 and checked them being shopped.
"Left side" video:
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
"Right side" video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE)
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 01:48:06 AM
Frankly, I'm much more inclined to believe that "right side" video is fake and always has been fake. What about that footage screams reliable source to you?
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 17, 2011, 02:05:39 AM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
Watch the ambulance door towards the end of the frame
There also appears to be someone else stepping out of the ambulance dressed in Black and White with a hoodie.
....Who is that?..... And how many people were in that ambulance? :shock:
That was exactly the point I was trying to get across :shock: "you put it better than I did" :lol: WHO IS THE GUY COMING OUT OF THE AMBULANCE! crash/
bounce/ :)
Post by: Suzy7 on November 17, 2011, 03:07:26 AM
It's assumptive to conclude that just because people have different belief's than we do, they haven't read anything on this site or they have an agenda. Some people have been here since 2009 and have different theories still, than those who have also been here since 2009.
It also isn't very welcoming to new users and/or "beLIEvers", if they are referred to as "agent's with an agenda" when they come to this site, again, because their opinion's differ. If there is supposed to be a message of "L.O.V.E." here, there is no need to be hostile when people disagree with us; especially if we want people to come here. People shouldn't be met with rudeness or negativity. Just because we believe something to be true, does not mean it's THE truth, but OUR truth. Perhaps we can all be friendly with eachother regardless of what we believe? <3 And that wasn't all directed at you Bec, but everyone in general, I do like your opinions as you know :).
@Purelove I understand you now, and yes it can be a possibility, but as I've said so many thing's can; we are here to determine the most *plausible* possibility. And no, none of us can debunk a theory regarding this scenario, even though we might think we have. The truth is we don't have proof of any one theory, therefore, we can't really 'debunk' anything except maybe for/or within our own theories. This is all speculation and we don't need to take everything so seriously.
Post by: patman on November 17, 2011, 03:30:37 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QCcqEPQzV90[/youtube]
Post by: Suzy7 on November 17, 2011, 03:39:41 AM
Post by: patman on November 17, 2011, 03:51:52 AM
In this topic we can for example point out the time of when the 911 call was made, when the ambulances arrived, when they arrived at the hospital, when the helicopter flew away to the coroners office, when the airport was closed.
Maybe that helps us ... just a thought ;)
Post by: MaryK on November 17, 2011, 04:31:17 AM
I know that he is a mastermind and a tough businessmann who would probably never endanger the success of the whole concept.
But on the other hand I think he´s a fun-loving, playful human being. Wouldn´t that kind of "game" just be irresistible for him?
Hide and seek....
:D
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 17, 2011, 07:05:43 AM
Bec, you made a post earlier referencing users who have unused avatar's, as being "agent's"; considering I am apart of that group, I can confidently say I am not an "agent" of any kind lol. Just because people don't have a pic of MJ in goldpants as their avatar (no offense to those that do ;)) doesn't mean they are here to create distractions and they must be an "agent".
It's assumptive to conclude that just because people have different belief's than we do, they haven't read anything on this site or they have an agenda. Some people have been here since 2009 and have different theories still, than those who have also been here since 2009.
It also isn't very welcoming to new users and/or "beLIEvers", if they are referred to as "agent's with an agenda" when they come to this site, again, because their opinion's differ. If there is supposed to be a message of "L.O.V.E." here, there is no need to be hostile when people disagree with us; especially if we want people to come here. People shouldn't be met with rudeness or negativity. Just because we believe something to be true, does not mean it's THE truth, but OUR truth. Perhaps we can all be friendly with eachother regardless of what we believe? <3 And that wasn't all directed at you Bec, but everyone in general, I do like your opinions as you know :).
@Purelove I understand you now, and yes it can be a possibility, but as I've said so many thing's can; we are here to determine the most *plausible* possibility. And no, none of us can debunk a theory regarding this scenario, even though we might think we have. The truth is we don't have proof of any one theory, therefore, we can't really 'debunk' anything except maybe for/or within our own theories. This is all speculation and we don't need to take everything so seriously.
:shock:
Speaking purely personally, I do not have an avatar, only reason for this is that I have absolutely know idea how to create one let alone put on the forum. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I have been here since a very long time (2009) firm beLIEver, no hidden agendas or secret agent here, just a rather aging lady bit older than MJ.
Still looking to find the real truth and that is all. bangbang crash/ typing/ :lol:
Spreading L.O.V.E. is what this is all about.
bow/ bow/ bow/
bearhug bearhug /white flag/
Post by: paula-c on November 17, 2011, 07:28:53 AM
Post by: PureLove on November 17, 2011, 08:15:11 AM
Look! He's right there sitting up on the stretcher. The hoax was deciphered by the end of 2009.
But so much time... so many voices... so easy to doubt your instincts. Like all these new faces on the thread, anyone else notice how each tiai thread tends to bring unused avatars out of the woodwork? And for the most part they seemingly haven't read any of the information. Seemingly just wandered in and latched onto theories and ideas long long ago (pages and months) debunked and laid to rest. They dig these up, dust them off, prop them up and make camp under them again and again.
2 years of trying to make sense of what we have known from the start, with the prime obstacle being distraction agents, inspires one to steal their reserve. What speaks true; your instincts? Or the whispers from the peanut gallery?
He's sitting right there on the stretcher. 3 out of 7 original pics captured by Ben's crew. He's right there in front of everyone's eyes. Yet 2 years later "we" can't decide who or what went to UCLA that day. Ironic.
I see his pony tail so clearly. But I remember that there was a doctor or an EMT of the hospital who had a ponytail too. And we talked about if that could be the EMT's ponytail and not MJ's.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 17, 2011, 09:16:42 AM
Maybe we have a freeze frame on where I can see him??
Post by: ilovemjforever on November 17, 2011, 09:33:11 AM
TS, lurking the thread is like this:
bangbang bangbang WTF?? WTF?? /woohoo/ /cook/ /cook/ lolol/ WTF?? bangbang bangbang crash/ crash/ crash/ :shock: :? :roll: /bravo/ /cook/ mj_bad/ lolol/
And while he is doing all that, he goes like this:
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110823053756/gleeusers/images/c/c9/Mj-thriller-popcorn-o.gif)
And like this:
/toldya/
Because he will torture us until the time is right-thirty. In the meanwhile, we go like this:
/overreacting/ /overreacting/ /pull hair/ /scream/ /white flag/ bangbang bangbang bangbang crash/ errrr bounce/ bounce/ argue/ argue/ suspicious// pale/ OMG! WTF??
And while doing that, we go like this:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwWuPpDQ-fKPg-7Xa4OmvBk0lAcbGQQsN88kYg8SscTekOu1nxKA)
And like this:
(http://www.cat-health-behavior.com/images/spring-crazy-cats-21243761.jpg)
BUT!
(http://th851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/_Scribble/LOL%20Funny%20cats/th_lolcatsdotcomhhm5f4skf7r69xwy.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: ilovemjforever on November 17, 2011, 09:33:54 AM
TS, lurking the thread is like this:Priceless
bangbang bangbang WTF?? WTF?? /woohoo/ /cook/ /cook/ lolol/ WTF?? bangbang bangbang crash/ crash/ crash/ :shock: :? :roll: /bravo/ /cook/ mj_bad/ lolol/
And while he is doing all that, he goes like this:
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110823053756/gleeusers/images/c/c9/Mj-thriller-popcorn-o.gif)
And like this:
/toldya/
Because he will torture us until the time is right-thirty. In the meanwhile, we go like this:
/overreacting/ /overreacting/ /pull hair/ /scream/ /white flag/ bangbang bangbang bangbang crash/ errrr bounce/ bounce/ argue/ argue/ suspicious// pale/ OMG! WTF??
And while doing that, we go like this:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwWuPpDQ-fKPg-7Xa4OmvBk0lAcbGQQsN88kYg8SscTekOu1nxKA)
And like this:
(http://www.cat-health-behavior.com/images/spring-crazy-cats-21243761.jpg)
BUT!
(http://th851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/_Scribble/LOL%20Funny%20cats/th_lolcatsdotcomhhm5f4skf7r69xwy.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: paula-c on November 17, 2011, 10:03:37 AM
4-37. Hints on the “How’s” of the Hoax
In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts}. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?
I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.
For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.
This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/}
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4-38. Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”
Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive.
All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls, thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).
The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).
Some have said that Forest Lawn (FL) would need to be in on the hoax; and maybe they are, but maybe not. If there was an actual dead body used during at least some of the process: then a dead body could’ve been at FL, even though it was not MJ. And sooner or later, the family could say: “We’ve decided to bury MJ somewhere else; but for privacy and security reasons, we want the public to think that he is buried here.”
They might even have FL sign confidentiality agreements, promising not to let anyone know that MJ was not buried at FL. Of course FL would still get paid, because the family did purchase space there {http://http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/us/04jackson.html}; and since FL got their money, they would not care where MJ was actually buried, and that would be the end of it—FL might never imagine that MJ is still alive.
Do I need to give any more hints? I think I’ve said enough already. Besides, you want some surprises left for after Bamsday, don’t you?
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 10:06:15 AM
Bec, you made a post earlier referencing users who have unused avatar's, as being "agent's"; considering I am apart of that group, I can confidently say I am not an "agent" of any kind lol. Just because people don't have a pic of MJ in goldpants as their avatar (no offense to those that do ;)) doesn't mean they are here to create distractions and they must be an "agent".
It's assumptive to conclude that just because people have different belief's than we do, they haven't read anything on this site or they have an agenda. Some people have been here since 2009 and have different theories still, than those who have also been here since 2009.
It also isn't very welcoming to new users and/or "beLIEvers", if they are referred to as "agent's with an agenda" when they come to this site, again, because their opinion's differ. If there is supposed to be a message of "L.O.V.E." here, there is no need to be hostile when people disagree with us; especially if we want people to come here. People shouldn't be met with rudeness or negativity. Just because we believe something to be true, does not mean it's THE truth, but OUR truth. Perhaps we can all be friendly with eachother regardless of what we believe? <3 And that wasn't all directed at you Bec, but everyone in general, I do like your opinions as you know :).
@Purelove I understand you now, and yes it can be a possibility, but as I've said so many thing's can; we are here to determine the most *plausible* possibility. And no, none of us can debunk a theory regarding this scenario, even though we might think we have. The truth is we don't have proof of any one theory, therefore, we can't really 'debunk' anything except maybe for/or within our own theories. This is all speculation and we don't need to take everything so seriously.
I didn't say anything of the sort and I would appreciate if you wouldn't put words in my mouth. If you would like to address one of my posts, please use the quote function.
However, I do take this pretty seriously.
Ps. What's the difference between THE truth and OUR truth? Ask yourself that.
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 10:14:32 AM
Look! He's right there sitting up on the stretcher. The hoax was deciphered by the end of 2009.
But so much time... so many voices... so easy to doubt your instincts. Like all these new faces on the thread, anyone else notice how each tiai thread tends to bring unused avatars out of the woodwork? And for the most part they seemingly haven't read any of the information. Seemingly just wandered in and latched onto theories and ideas long long ago (pages and months) debunked and laid to rest. They dig these up, dust them off, prop them up and make camp under them again and again.
2 years of trying to make sense of what we have known from the start, with the prime obstacle being distraction agents, inspires one to steal their reserve. What speaks true; your instincts? Or the whispers from the peanut gallery?
He's sitting right there on the stretcher. 3 out of 7 original pics captured by Ben's crew. He's right there in front of everyone's eyes. Yet 2 years later "we" can't decide who or what went to UCLA that day. Ironic.
I see his pony tail so clearly. But I remember that there was a doctor or an EMT of the hospital who had a ponytail too. And we talked about if that could be the EMT's ponytail and not MJ's.
EMT handbook dictates that the hair may not extend below the collar.
Additionally, there are 3 EMT's pictured already.
The 2 doctors supposedly in attendance took the stand in the trial. Dr. Cooper has long hair but it's blonde. You think it's Nyugen and she simply cut off all her hair in the last 2 years? Unlikely. Look how tall that person would have to be to be standing. Certainly not little Doc Nyugen. Additionally, where are this person's legs? Not there.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 17, 2011, 10:21:24 AM
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 10:27:13 AM
Post by: son on November 17, 2011, 11:07:42 AM
you say a 'real body' theory is less complicated than a no body theory... really?? i mean ethical dilema is just the start of the myriad of issues that a real body theory can pose... a dummy is far less complicated than a real body. and the comment abt escape LAX still applies if there was a dummy...
you say the 'body' was for everyone elses benefit. really? did we see the body? or did we see a bunch of poorly maniplulated low grade photoshopped images... so poor they could have been a dummy, or mj posing, or a mish mash of mj pics sudperimposed to create image...
regarding the michael manipulating to be able to pull off this hoax, you have to realise that he is one of the few people on earth who would be able to do this, with resources and people in the right places, money etc that would enable him to do this.
re: illuminati - not even going there in detail. but mj spoke abt these things himself. these are no mere theories posted on MJDHI forum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lJmQFlosUw is just one example that he references.
and as for the numerogly - there have been too many incidences for it to me coincidence. its all planned down to the last digit.
1. A real body makes more sense because not (I believe) everyone is in on the hoax (even though they are involved). One person dying is more practical than thousands of of people and public organizations perpetuating a lie (even if it IS a movie people can't keep their mouths shut). Of course we didn't see the body because we would scrutinize it too much, not because there is no body but because we would correctly know that it wasn't MJ. Keep in mind Katherine said she never saw the body either.
2. As I said to Pearl Jr. numerology can be manipulated if to give you what ever answer you wanted. Regardless, I believe that there were insiders within each organization (Sony, Hospital, Paramedics, Coroner's, Hollywood), just not the entire organization. Insiders within each organization performed according to MJ's /numerology.
3. Michael talks about media manipulation and the dark/racist side of hollywood and the music industry. If MJ is able to pull this off with a dummy or no body at all and complete allegiance and cooperation from the various organizations, then he's no better than the media officials he demonizes. In fact, it almost validates the haters who say Michael paid off all of the families who slept in his bedroom. That's the core of my reasoning behind the real body theory. I DON'T believe MJ has direct control.
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 11:18:20 AM
One person dying is more practical than thousands of of people and public organizations perpetuating a lie (even if it IS a movie people can't keep their mouths shut).
They do it every day. For every movie ever made. This is Standard Operating Procedure.
It has been determined conclusively that a real body wouldn't fool anyone not already in on the hoax so there is little point in using one.
Real ER docs are not going to work on a dead person for 1+hour before calling time of death.
You know, on second thought, there's little point in going over this again. It's been laid out conclusively by several great minds on this thread more then once already, for many pages and many pages ago. This is the genius of this hoax. You cannot convince someone, each person must find the truth for themselves. This is how the truth is profoundly different from the global power agenda.
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 11:35:24 AM
How can a movie heal the world? (or something along those lines) and how does the numerology fit in?
A movie can heal the world, and is really the only WAY to get the message out to the masses due to our conditioning. Entertainment transcends political, social, and religious boundaries and reaches the people on equal ground. We have been so conditioned by the system that only entertainment reaches us without these filters. TPTB control some of it, and we have seen discussions on that very topic, but not all of it, and it may be the very last fort held against the system.
The Illuminati=The Powers That Be. TPTB get their power from the General Public (GenPub)'s collective unawareness.
777 and 999 work as spiritual talismans (of sorts) for MJ that he seems to believe are crucial to be intertwined with his life and actions and that adhering to is important for success in his ventures. He seems to believe these numerical talismans allow him to proceed guided by and protected by god. The 7 is his personal spiritual number, and the 9 equals resurrection.
666 = TPTB and stands for man's callous disregard for each other due to conditioning by the system (TPTB's divide n conquer mentality, pit us against each other so they can swoop in and "save" us). Adding 333 to that concept = 999 (resurrection).
The "movie" addresses and conveys the message to drive public awareness... it will be a public service message "The Media Lies To You!" which would, in theory, destroy TPTB by erroding their pillar of support, ignorance and distraction. This destruction of the media's ivory tower of GenPub trust through awareness and exposure of the ultimate LIE, will work as a domino effect throughout the collective humanity as people's eyes are opened to the truth: MJ is NOT dead, and what you saw was a giant illusion. It was so real... so what else is a Giant Illusion? At that point, ANYTHING you see on TV packaged and delivered to you via the media is suspect. People will never look at the TV and the media the same way again.
This would be a HUGE first step towards healing the world, and would put into motion (like V's dominoes) wide spread change at a grassroots level. Awareness=evolution.
Still probably off topic, but considering what the discussion has devolved into, it's less of a concern at this point.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 17, 2011, 11:46:40 AM
maybe we can make a topic on this forum which contains only actual factual timelines. i don´t think that exists yet because i could not find it.I think ti would be very helpful.
In this topic we can for example point out the time of when the 911 call was made, when the ambulances arrived, when they arrived at the hospital, when the helicopter flew away to the coroners office, when the airport was closed.
Maybe that helps us ... just a thought ;)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 17, 2011, 11:53:47 AM
One person dying is more practical than thousands of of people and public organizations perpetuating a lie (even if it IS a movie people can't keep their mouths shut).
They do it every day. For every movie ever made. This is Standard Operating Procedure.
It has been determined conclusively that a real body wouldn't fool anyone not already in on the hoax so there is little point in using one.
Real ER docs are not going to work on a dead person for 1+hour before calling time of death.
You know, on second thought, there's little point in going over this again. It's been laid out conclusively by several great minds on this thread more then once already, for many pages and many pages ago. This is the genius of this hoax. You cannot convince someone, each person must find the truth for themselves. This is how the truth is profoundly different from the global power agenda.
I think a real body would fool the paramedics and even UCLA doctors. After all they all said the patient was dead when they arrived there or on arrival at the hospital. Of course it wouldn't fool the coroner.
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 11:59:29 AM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 17, 2011, 12:04:12 PM
This is the genius of this hoax. You cannot convince someone, each person must find the truth for themselves. This is how the truth is profoundly different from the global power agenda.
Well said...couldn't agree more.
I've been re-looking at some of Ben's 'interviews' about 'that day'...and came across this one.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2_421PgyJw[/youtube]
Towards the end of the vid (around 2:17), we see footage of the ambulance at UCLA...first from the left, then the right. Couple things...
1) we first see the cam shot from the left and we can see Alvarez 'supposedly' trying to stop them from filming. The next shot is from the right and we can see the bodyguard taking his jacket off. ASSuming that this is the same guy holding his jacket up in the picture .gif....then we could also assume that he must have taken it off while everyone was STILL in the ambulance (i.e. the jacket is already off while the stretcher is being wheeled into UCLA).
Considering it was 'supposedly' a life and death situation, isn't it 'odd' that the ambulance doors weren't flung open THE second they arrived at the hospital? The guy had time to take his jacket off and it doesn't look like he was doing it in a big hurry. What were they doing in the ambulance??
Does this mean anything? I have no clue. Maybe someone else can make sense of it.
2) We could say they stopped filming from the left because of Alvarez (although I wouldn't base too much on that)...but clearly there is no one trying to stop them from the right side. Maybe I've just missed it, but is there live footage of the stretcher being wheeled into UCLA (vid not pics)? Paps usually don't stop filming until the 'deed is done' and even then, most of them keep filming on the off-chance of 'catching' something/someone on film. If there is no vid of the stretcher, then why did they stop filming when they did? Makes no sense considering they found it 'important' to film the back of the ambulance the whole way to the hospital...but then they get there and stop filming right before the stretcher is brought out :?
Again, not sure what to make of this if anything....and these points have probably already been discussed in the past. I just haven't come across a 'logical' explanation for either...most likely cause there isn't one (unless, of course, there is a vid of the stretcher that I've missed...then at least point #2 would be settled).
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 12:08:19 PM
So Ben's crew captured it all.
Solves the problem of WHY MJ would be sitting up on the stretcher with unauthorized media members around. No problem now. Go ahead n sit up, MJ. Might as well dance on top of the ambulance while you're at it. No one will believe what they see anyway (that's obvious). The TV says MJ is dead... so none of this can possibly be real because the TV knows ALLLLLLLLLL.
Puke.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 17, 2011, 12:20:57 PM
.......just checkin' in
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e322/patisblog/knitting.gif)
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 17, 2011, 12:26:35 PM
I hate getting old..because I absolutely do not see anyone on that stretcher.
Maybe we have a freeze frame on where I can see him??
Here you go....
(http://i44.tinypic.com/ipnz3r.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/1rx3sj.jpg)
This last one is a mystery man coming out of the ambulance
(http://i39.tinypic.com/v46l9h.jpg)
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 17, 2011, 12:33:10 PM
TS, lurking the thread is like this:
bangbang bangbang WTF?? WTF?? /woohoo/ /cook/ /cook/ lolol/ WTF?? bangbang bangbang crash/ crash/ crash/ :shock: :? :roll: /bravo/ /cook/ mj_bad/ lolol/
And while he is doing all that, he goes like this:
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110823053756/gleeusers/images/c/c9/Mj-thriller-popcorn-o.gif)
And like this:
/toldya/
Because he will torture us until the time is right-thirty. In the meanwhile, we go like this:
/overreacting/ /overreacting/ /pull hair/ /scream/ /white flag/ bangbang bangbang bangbang crash/ errrr bounce/ bounce/ argue/ argue/ suspicious// pale/ OMG! WTF??
And while doing that, we go like this:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwWuPpDQ-fKPg-7Xa4OmvBk0lAcbGQQsN88kYg8SscTekOu1nxKA)
And like this:
(http://www.cat-health-behavior.com/images/spring-crazy-cats-21243761.jpg)
BUT!
(http://th851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/_Scribble/LOL%20Funny%20cats/th_lolcatsdotcomhhm5f4skf7r69xwy.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
@Souza, you crack me up!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Thanks for the Laugh, some Comic relief is always welcome in "my" world!
@TS, you are a "Wascally, Wabbit", always creating D.R.A.M.A lolol/.....But you know that I LOVE You! :mrgreen:
Post by: curls on November 17, 2011, 12:36:52 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 17, 2011, 12:37:31 PM
Oh well, isn't that interesting BeTheChange, Ben's crew was responsible for getting the video from the right side as well. I didn't know that.
So Ben's crew captured it all.
Solves the problem of WHY MJ would be sitting up on the stretcher with unauthorized media members around. No problem now. Go ahead n sit up, MJ. Might as well dance on top of the ambulance while you're at it. No one will believe what they see anyway (that's obvious). The TV says MJ is dead... so none of this can possibly be real because the TV knows ALLLLLLLLLL.
Puke.
LOL @ the bolded part.
I must have missed the 'significance' of who filmed from the right side :?...I'll have to go back and read some posts cause I'm confused (nothing new there).
I have always thought that it was Ben and his crew...and ONLY Ben and his crew...that filmed/took pics 'that day' and 'the other day' lol. THAT is what keeps throwing me off. I've searched and searched for ANY other news broadcasts that 'captured' the ambulance arriving at UCLA and I haven't found anything. In fact, I found one that reports the ambulance got there between 12:30 and 1pm....but even they said it's speculation because no one saw the ambulance arrive.
Considering the ONLY footage we do have to go on is Ben's...i.e. they are The Source, so to speak, of what we are basing 'truth' on...and KNOWING Ben was responsible for a 'staged' ambulance photo...I don't think it's a clear-cut choice as to whether or not an ambulance left Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25th. It makes 'sense' that there would've been...but we can not base it on what we've seen because we are 'trusting' a source that has proven to have 'lied' about other footage. Does that make sense? lol
Also, it may be nothing at all...but in the vid I posted, Ben talks about there only being 2 fans and 2 'autograph collectors' outside Carolwood 'that day' (he never says June 25th lol)...and he also says that there were many days where there was 20+ fans outside Carolwood. Interesting (and convenient) that on June 25th, there was only 4 people out there.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 17, 2011, 01:05:35 PM
At this point I am going to answer a question PureLove asked me many pages back, which I thought would be off topic so I declined to post at that time.
How can a movie heal the world? (or something along those lines) and how does the numerology fit in?
A movie can heal the world, and is really the only WAY to get the message out to the masses due to our conditioning. Entertainment transcends political, social, and religious boundaries and reaches the people on equal ground. We have been so conditioned by the system that only entertainment reaches us without these filters. TPTB control some of it, and we have seen discussions on that very topic, but not all of it, and it may be the very last fort held against the system.
The Illuminati=The Powers That Be. TPTB get their power from the General Public (GenPub)'s collective unawareness.
777 and 999 work as spiritual talismans (of sorts) for MJ that he seems to believe are crucial to be intertwined with his life and actions and that adhering to is important for success in his ventures. He seems to believe these numerical talismans allow him to proceed guided by and protected by god. The 7 is his personal spiritual number, and the 9 equals resurrection.
666 = TPTB and stands for man's callous disregard for each other due to conditioning by the system (TPTB's divide n conquer mentality, pit us against each other so they can swoop in and "save" us). Adding 333 to that concept = 999 (resurrection).
The "movie" addresses and conveys the message to drive public awareness... it will be a public service message "The Media Lies To You!" which would, in theory, destroy TPTB by erroding their pillar of support, ignorance and distraction. This destruction of the media's ivory tower of GenPub trust through awareness and exposure of the ultimate LIE, will work as a domino effect throughout the collective humanity as people's eyes are opened to the truth: MJ is NOT dead, and what you saw was a giant illusion. It was so real... so what else is a Giant Illusion? At that point, ANYTHING you see on TV packaged and delivered to you via the media is suspect. People will never look at the TV and the media the same way again.
This would be a HUGE first step towards healing the world, and would put into motion (like V's dominoes) wide spread change at a grassroots level. Awareness=evolution.
Still probably off topic, but considering what the discussion has devolved into, it's less of a concern at this point.
GREAT Post Bec!!!! Sadly, most still won't understand...But, in time they will. Thanks for laying it out there!
Sending you Blessings LOVE and LIGHT!!!!
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 17, 2011, 01:10:21 PM
Post by: ForstAMoon on November 17, 2011, 01:12:52 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VR-HSc2aM4[/youtube][/font]
- who made the one and only video that has been floating around
- and, what is more important to know, who made the video and photo with both Ben and Chris on it (the one I have just posted in here)
(http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af214/moonter/Slide1.jpg)
I have some sneaking suspicion who it might have been :mrgreen:
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 01:18:41 PM
Is that guy actually coming OUT of the ambulance, or is he maybe coming into view from BEHIND it, and the man with the jacket is trying to shield his view?
The white part of his coat passes directly through the window of the ambulance...he's coming from inside it.
Considering the doors are standing open, the only conclusion that you can draw from this is that the object is behind that door... which it is. You cannot derive conclusively that the object is emerging from the ambulance from this information.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 17, 2011, 01:21:31 PM
Is that guy actually coming OUT of the ambulance, or is he maybe coming into view from BEHIND it, and the man with the jacket is trying to shield his view?
The white part of his coat passes directly through the window of the ambulance...he's coming from inside it.
Considering the doors are standing open, the only conclusion that you can draw from this is that the object is behind that door... which it is. You cannot derive conclusively that the object is emerging from the ambulance from this information.
I know, after I looked at it again, it's inconclusive...that's why I edited my post.
...you grabbed it before I could delete it :lol:
Post by: BeTheChange on November 17, 2011, 01:37:30 PM
This destruction of the media's ivory tower of GenPub trust through awareness and exposure of the ultimate LIE, will work as a domino effect throughout the collective humanity as people's eyes are opened to the truth: MJ is NOT dead, and what you saw was a giant illusion. It was so real... so what else is a Giant Illusion? At that point, ANYTHING you see on TV packaged and delivered to you via the media is suspect. People will never look at the TV and the media the same way again.
Great post overall bec! I quoted this paragraph and specifically bolded the last two sentences because I believe that THIS is one of the reasons why WE are here. I'm sure there's a few reasons but it makes sense to me that Mike would want to 'test' the waters and/or the 'temperature' as the plan unfolds. What better way than to have a 'test group'?
Based on everything we have learned in the past 2+ years, who still believes everything they see on TV? But it extends even beyond that...we no longer just don't believe it, we take it a few steps further and research, investigate, and draw our OWN conclusions as to what is being presented to us.
I believe that our 'comments' on the forum are being watched and very closely....not so much to 'test' us (which no matter how you look at it, we would be 'tested' as well)...but to 'test' the plan. Is it working? Has the 'guidance' been proper/enough/appropriate to achieve the desired result (which is awareness)? The 'test' goes both ways IMO.
If beLIEvers are still falling into the trap of believing everything they see (which would be very evident in our comments to an 'observer')...and we are the 'test group'....then what effect will the message have on the masses?
I do think we've come a LONG way from where we were 2 years ago...heck, even from where we were a month ago...and it will continue that way. We can only guess at what MJ's 'expectations' are (i.e. how far along WE should be) before the next 'phase' begins and the 'message' is brought to the masses.
With L.O.V.E. always.
P.S. The first sentence of the bolded part...IMO, includes anything and everything we've seen and heard from Ben.
Post by: MsTrinity333 on November 17, 2011, 02:04:05 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
afraid/ HOLY--!
THAT'S the scene I was talking about! Either here, or there or some other thread... I'm lost now. XD
But is that not amazing?
How can non-believers explain this? Who's that, WHY does he need to be covered with a coat?
And why, covered up in such a... MJ w/bodyguard-ish fashion?
So clever, too, because anyone can miss this...
:idea:
Call me crazy......but, if Michael is in this scene, I think he just might be the paramedic wheeling the gurney in....the one with darker hair and sort of slouched inward. Something about his walk, his "posterior " :oops: I wrote this once before....I can't believe I am writing it again, I am ten shades of red right now :lol: Sooo.....that's what I think on this picture.....it's too obvious otherwise for me. But, Michael wheeling himself in, that I'd buy.
Blessings Always
OMG...I was literally just writing the exact same thing as you Wishingstar!! "If" I had to pick, I'd say that MJ would be that ambulance guy also..notice how the bodyguard steps in front of him fast, to cause a distraction, making you believe that he is trying to hide the guy coming out of the ambulance! MJ "Hiding in Plain sight", would be my guess.
Although to me this is "irrelevant" in the BIG Picture...JMO though.
Blessings and LOVE to all!!
First of all a big THANKS to Souza for the comedy relief! /bravo/
Second; I'm as crazy as you guys... Yes we have discussed all three people. Gurney Guy, Peri-medic Guy in blue & The guy jumping out of the ambo. It's truly a shell game. So I'm thinking it's just like TII; THREE MJ's, Decoys?...just for fun to really mess with us? Sitings sitings everywhere..."two places at the same time". As Paula-C posted from TS:
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.
This leaves us with three possibilities.
*There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”.
*There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy).
* Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/}
OK. So what if MJ used a combination of number three along with his decoys on Live Action Day? This would explain multiple sightings (Vans, ambo, ER), differences in body shapes while moving said "body/bodies", distractions, "moving" bodies in helicopter, ...redirection? Illusion. Just /overreacting/ thinking out loud chasing my tail again...
Post by: paula-c on November 17, 2011, 02:18:28 PM
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 17, 2011, 02:35:31 PM
This destruction of the media's ivory tower of GenPub trust through awareness and exposure of the ultimate LIE, will work as a domino effect throughout the collective humanity as people's eyes are opened to the truth: MJ is NOT dead, and what you saw was a giant illusion. It was so real... so what else is a Giant Illusion? At that point, ANYTHING you see on TV packaged and delivered to you via the media is suspect. People will never look at the TV and the media the same way again.
Great post overall bec! I quoted this paragraph and specifically bolded the last two sentences because I believe that THIS is one of the reasons why WE are here. I'm sure there's a few reasons but it makes sense to me that Mike would want to 'test' the waters and/or the 'temperature' as the plan unfolds. What better way than to have a 'test group'?
Based on everything we have learned in the past 2+ years, who still believes everything they see on TV? But it extends even beyond that...we no longer just don't believe it, we take it a few steps further and research, investigate, and draw our OWN conclusions as to what is being presented to us.
I believe that our 'comments' on the forum are being watched and very closely....not so much to 'test' us (which no matter how you look at it, we would be 'tested' as well)...but to 'test' the plan. Is it working? Has the 'guidance' been proper/enough/appropriate to achieve the desired result (which is awareness)? The 'test' goes both ways IMO.
If beLIEvers are still falling into the trap of believing everything they see (which would be very evident in our comments to an 'observer')...and we are the 'test group'....then what effect will the message have on the masses?
I do think we've come a LONG way from where we were 2 years ago...heck, even from where we were a month ago...and it will continue that way. We can only guess at what MJ's 'expectations' are (i.e. how far along WE should be) before the next 'phase' begins and the 'message' is brought to the masses.
With L.O.V.E. always.
P.S. The first sentence of the bolded part...IMO, includes anything and everything we've seen and heard from Ben.
@Bethechange...another great post! "Thank you".
There are so many "layers" to this hoax, and there are many different paths to choose from, but there is only one ultimate "TRUTH" in the end/Beginning...It's all for LOVE!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 17, 2011, 03:01:37 PM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 17, 2011, 03:22:53 PM
You know, on second thought, there's little point in going over this again. It's been laid out conclusively by several great minds on this thread more then once already, for many pages and many pages ago. This is the genius of this hoax. You cannot convince someone, each person must find the truth for themselves. This is how the truth is profoundly different from the global power agenda.
@ bec - so true. just wanted to say that i loved this post... bearhug
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 17, 2011, 03:23:12 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzlXrQcT8uo&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGdOtz6AM-Q&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-OaoU7r8KY&feature=related[/youtube]
Post by: fordtocarr on November 17, 2011, 03:26:42 PM
I hate getting old..because I absolutely do not see anyone on that stretcher.
Maybe we have a freeze frame on where I can see him??
Here you go....
(http://i44.tinypic.com/ipnz3r.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/1rx3sj.jpg)
This last one is a mystery man coming out of the ambulance
(http://i39.tinypic.com/v46l9h.jpg)
Merci ;) ♥
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 17, 2011, 03:55:09 PM
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/kimasabe/ARTWORK%20Graphics%20animations/SMILEYS%20float%20my%20boat%20MORE/chase.gif)
Bottom line....something was wrapped in that sheet!
...but does it really affect the end result?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 17, 2011, 03:58:50 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)
OK there is a head there that seems to be attached to a body sitting on the stretcher and there looks like the person who owns both that head and that body is lying down on the stretcher BUT couldn't it be that person is just walking on his own feet next to the stretcher and not being on the stretcher and MAYBE what we see as lying down is just a lean forward of that person because they were in a hurry??
Of course I've noticed that person seems to look like MJ BUT it could be an optical illusion OR an MJ double.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 17, 2011, 04:04:59 PM
He can't be both of those people....
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 17, 2011, 04:07:40 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 17, 2011, 04:13:02 PM
I wonder, if that is suppose to be Michael on the stretcher, how do we believe it's Michael coming out/around the ambulance also?
He can't be both of those people....
Maybe none of them is Michael.Maybe Michael was either at the airport. Or maybe he was on the stretcher, as dead as he could be or just siting quiet down there. Lots of options to choose from damn it.
Post by: Sarahli on November 17, 2011, 04:16:12 PM
We could be chasing butterflies all day trying to figure this out!
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/kimasabe/ARTWORK%20Graphics%20animations/SMILEYS%20float%20my%20boat%20MORE/chase.gif)
Bottom line....something was wrapped in that sheet!
...but does it really affect the end result?
I don't want to sound presumptuous but honestly my theory is the best :lol: :mrgreen: ... if we say it's all for diversion and FBI is involved then you can pretty much put anything on that stretcher and no one would question. geek/
Yes we might as well try to chase butterflies. :P
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 17, 2011, 04:35:48 PM
If we believe it's Michael on the stretcher (and not even playing dead to top it all :lol:) then we assume that there was no one at UCLA that day right?
So why were they so frantic to push an EMPTY stretcher into the hospital?
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 17, 2011, 04:40:01 PM
I wonder, if that is suppose to be Michael on the stretcher, how do we believe it's Michael coming out/around the ambulance also?
He can't be both of those people....
Or he might be Neither....could just be a diversion... :lol:
Pictures and Video can be manipulated....(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/entertainment/other/photographer.gif)
Post by: Sarahli on November 17, 2011, 04:42:18 PM
If we believe it's Michael on the stretcher (and not even playing dead to top it all :lol:) then we assume that there was no one at UCLA that day right?
So why were they so frantic to push an EMPTY stretcher into the hospital?
My point is that the person on the stretcher could easily be recognized by someone working at UCLA even if they hurry. Actually I am puzzled by this sequence I don't know what to make of it.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 17, 2011, 04:44:47 PM
TS see you in the morning OK?
(because it is the time for you to
POST
bow/ bow/ bow/ )
Post by: PureLove on November 17, 2011, 04:50:02 PM
TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof of Hoax, Not Murder
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Thank you for reminding this one Paula. This sounds very logical to me. Why would he risk to be seen alive at the hospital or inside the ambulance? Alive MJ theory doesn't sound plausible to me.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 17, 2011, 04:51:36 PM
As for the theory, Paula-c quoted TS' update 4, which pretty much gives us the answer. Any theory doesn't make a difference in the end anyway.
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 17, 2011, 04:51:52 PM
We could be chasing butterflies all day trying to figure this out!Answer: MY MaJic 8 Ball says...."NO WAY JOSE"! :mrgreen:
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/kimasabe/ARTWORK%20Graphics%20animations/SMILEYS%20float%20my%20boat%20MORE/chase.gif)
Bottom line....something was wrapped in that sheet!
...but does it really affect the end result?
Sending you lots of LOVE!
Post by: MJonmind on November 17, 2011, 04:56:24 PM
Quote
I believe that our 'comments' on the forum are being watched and very closely....not so much to 'test' us (which no matter how you look at it, we would be 'tested' as well)...but to 'test' the plan. Is it working? Has the 'guidance' been proper/enough/appropriate to achieve the desired result (which is awareness)? The 'test' goes both ways IMO.
If beLIEvers are still falling into the trap of believing everything they see (which would be very evident in our comments to an 'observer')...and we are the 'test group'....then what effect will the message have on the masses?
And TS tests us as well, so how should be take his statements? Even Front says we should only believe as we individually research and interpret facts. It's so much easier when we have an anchor, like a North Star that we can completely base everything on, that's unflinching truth.
Mjj4ever777, I know it was off topic but I rather enjoyed listening to some of the Marlon Brando videos. He's very smart, funny, a flirt, warm, modest and speaking fluently in German and French. I agree no wonder MJ loved being with him! Thanks!
I would say then that again TS was toying with us when he spoke emphatically about which theories should be tossed, and meanwhile they probably shouldn’t be. If NPG are indeed the only ones filming at Carolwood and UCLA, then it is still entirely possible that filming took place on the “other day” or even more, to get the difficult hoaxy shots. Since when do movies get shot in a day—Never! So the MJ sitting up on the stretcher could be him or a double, but filmed on another day, or even photoshopped in. Illusion, so perhaps it's hardly proving anything. We know that MJ's alive--bottom line, but after that a thousand illusions and possibilities.
Grace had mentioned a while back about the Murray-looking guy being in a white shirt with dark suit in another short clip of behind the ambulance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQx5g5lwAE&feature=player_embedded)
In the UCLA video being discussed above, I noticed right before the security guard puts up his hand to the NPG guy that this tall guy in a gray suit walks by and also looks like Murray??? So many decoys?
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/greysuit.jpg)
Post by: son on November 17, 2011, 05:04:49 PM
One person dying is more practical than thousands of of people and public organizations perpetuating a lie (even if it IS a movie people can't keep their mouths shut).
They do it every day. For every movie ever made. This is Standard Operating Procedure.
It has been determined conclusively that a real body wouldn't fool anyone not already in on the hoax so there is little point in using one.
Real ER docs are not going to work on a dead person for 1+hour before calling time of death.
You know, on second thought, there's little point in going over this again. It's been laid out conclusively by several great minds on this thread more then once already, for many pages and many pages ago. This is the genius of this hoax. You cannot convince someone, each person must find the truth for themselves. This is how the truth is profoundly different from the global power agenda.
Why am I treated like a "non-believer" because I believe a body was used? As long as I believe he faked his death what does it matter? Nothing is really conclusive in this whole experience so we need to discover what makes sense to ourselves. But in order to do that we need to take a break from "fan mode" and view thing from a realistic perspective. Michael wasn't beloved by everyone, he needed something tangible to satisfy those who he couldn't bring to his side (ie: a real corpse). Non-believers/non-fans could possibly be convinced by an impersonator's corpse or a corpse that was dressed up like to look like him. If I'm not mistaken the autopsy mentioned things like surgical scars on the ears for example, I think we can be certain that MJ wouldn't get surgery on his ears but someone trying to look like him might.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 17, 2011, 05:07:05 PM
TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof of Hoax, Not Murder
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Thank you for reminding this one Paula. This sounds very logical to me. Why would he risk to be seen alive at the hospital or inside the ambulance? Alive MJ theory doesn't sound plausible to me.
i am in agreeance. i think no body (dead or alive) dummy and mj wasnt even there.
but this is IMO for me as to what i am choosing to believe - not saying it is what happened. coz really, none of us can be sure... but for me i need to choose something to believe, even though there is lots of ambiguity. sitting with a theory is a coping strategy. even though i cant be 100% sure of my choice. i wouldnt be able to be 100% of either choice, but feel most comfortable (personally) with this one...
funny though. its only one small aspect of the whole DH and coming to a personal conlusion about one mere detail amongst lost of perfectly planned and manipulated events in the scheme of things. (which granted is a huge detail, because it could mean that mr michael jackson wasnt even at UCLA dead or alive on 25.6.09 yet the whole world is reporting / talking abt it, which would be ironic - understatement to say the least) ....
@TS... come out come out, where ever you are.....
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m607/SusameBishie/RpCs/Vampire%20knight/eye.png)
Post by: Andrea on November 17, 2011, 05:10:52 PM
TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof of Hoax, Not Murder
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Thank you for reminding this one Paula. This sounds very logical to me. Why would he risk to be seen alive at the hospital or inside the ambulance? Alive MJ theory doesn't sound plausible to me.
I agree that it sounds logical but I believe this could very well be one of the false theories that TS said he would support. Why would he basically tell us that's what happened that long ago if we're "supposed" to figure it out? Not that we will figure it all out but at least eliminate some possibilities. I'm with the Michael-was-there-that-day theory and if he risked being seen alive, I think he did it on purpose so that he could have, as an example, that sitting up on the stretcher gif. It's just another way to stick it to the media by being there and (almost) blatantly showing that he is very much alive. Hoaxing your death is a risk no matter how you look at it but Michael had the advantage of being surrounded by his people and the media running with the death story. The "TMZ said he died so it must be true" mentality is where the majority of our society is at.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 17, 2011, 05:16:38 PM
One person dying is more practical than thousands of of people and public organizations perpetuating a lie (even if it IS a movie people can't keep their mouths shut).
They do it every day. For every movie ever made. This is Standard Operating Procedure.
It has been determined conclusively that a real body wouldn't fool anyone not already in on the hoax so there is little point in using one.
Real ER docs are not going to work on a dead person for 1+hour before calling time of death.
You know, on second thought, there's little point in going over this again. It's been laid out conclusively by several great minds on this thread more then once already, for many pages and many pages ago. This is the genius of this hoax. You cannot convince someone, each person must find the truth for themselves. This is how the truth is profoundly different from the global power agenda.
Why am I treated like a "non-believer" because I believe a body was used? As long as I believe he faked his death what does it matter? Nothing is really conclusive in this whole experience so we need to discover what makes sense to ourselves. But in order to do that we need to take a break from "fan mode" and view thing from a realistic perspective. Michael wasn't beloved by everyone, he needed something tangible to satisfy those who he couldn't bring to his side (ie: a real corpse). Non-believers/non-fans could possibly be convinced by an impersonator's corpse or a corpse that was dressed up like to look like him. If I'm not mistaken the autopsy mentioned things like surgical scars on the ears for example, I think we can be certain that MJ wouldn't get surgery on his ears but someone trying to look like him might.
"I" think that we all arrive at our own conclusions and that by dismissing others is not showing love. NO one knows who is right and to struggle to be THE right one is just not love. I think you were hurt SON, and I understand as do others. You will have to harden your heart as you stay here..and just remember that YOU could be right as well as anyone else, and we won't know, til we know, if we ever know ;)
Also, Michael "could have" had those scars behind his ears, if he has plastic surgery...like in a face lift. I know Arnie sure talks a lot about restoring Michael's face from damage done by Steven Hoefflin. And we know he was in and out of Arnie's a lot in May and June, so could be...that also would account for "some" Demerol... because that'd be surgery. JMO... but anyhow...hang in there ;)
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 17, 2011, 05:18:40 PM
It's just another way to stick it to the media by being there and (almost) blatantly showing that he is very much alive. Hoaxing your death is a risk no matter how you look at it but Michael had the advantage of being surrounded by his people and the media running with the death story. The "TMZ said he died so it must be true" mentality is where the majority of our society is at.TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof of Hoax, Not Murder
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Thank you for reminding this one Paula. This sounds very logical to me. Why would he risk to be seen alive at the hospital or inside the ambulance? Alive MJ theory doesn't sound plausible to me.
damn it andrea, you had to play devlis advocate.... lolol/ true being at UCLA alive sort of pokes fun at them (media and its subjects) and in addition makes them look foolish.
but i gotta pick a theory and stick with it. so have to refrain from agreeing (for my own mental sanity) but what you say is completely possible. (providing that the visual was actually captured on the date and not prior to)
Post by: son on November 17, 2011, 05:23:05 PM
One person dying is more practical than thousands of of people and public organizations perpetuating a lie (even if it IS a movie people can't keep their mouths shut).
They do it every day. For every movie ever made. This is Standard Operating Procedure.
It has been determined conclusively that a real body wouldn't fool anyone not already in on the hoax so there is little point in using one.
Real ER docs are not going to work on a dead person for 1+hour before calling time of death.
You know, on second thought, there's little point in going over this again. It's been laid out conclusively by several great minds on this thread more then once already, for many pages and many pages ago. This is the genius of this hoax. You cannot convince someone, each person must find the truth for themselves. This is how the truth is profoundly different from the global power agenda.
Why am I treated like a "non-believer" because I believe a body was used? As long as I believe he faked his death what does it matter? Nothing is really conclusive in this whole experience so we need to discover what makes sense to ourselves. But in order to do that we need to take a break from "fan mode" and view thing from a realistic perspective. Michael wasn't beloved by everyone, he needed something tangible to satisfy those who he couldn't bring to his side (ie: a real corpse). Non-believers/non-fans could possibly be convinced by an impersonator's corpse or a corpse that was dressed up like to look like him. If I'm not mistaken the autopsy mentioned things like surgical scars on the ears for example, I think we can be certain that MJ wouldn't get surgery on his ears but someone trying to look like him might.
"I" think that we all arrive at our own conclusions and that by dismissing others is not showing love. NO one knows who is right and to struggle to be THE right one is just not love. I think you were hurt SON, and I understand as do others. You will have to harden your heart as you stay here..and just remember that YOU could be right as well as anyone else, and we won't know, til we know, if we ever know ;)
Also, Michael "could have" had those scars behind his ears, if he has plastic surgery...like in a face lift. I know Arnie sure talks a lot about restoring Michael's face from damage done by Steven Hoefflin. And we know he was in and out of Arnie's a lot in May and June, so could be...that also would account for "some" Demerol... because that'd be surgery. JMO... but anyhow...hang in there ;)
My feelings aren't hurt but I appreciate your concern :)
As far as the reconstruction goes, maybe the person who was being worked on by Klein was the impersonator. After all he did leave the place wearing the shades and surgical mask.
Post by: PureLove on November 17, 2011, 05:24:40 PM
At this point I am going to answer a question PureLove asked me many pages back, which I thought would be off topic so I declined to post at that time.
How can a movie heal the world? (or something along those lines) and how does the numerology fit in?
A movie can heal the world, and is really the only WAY to get the message out to the masses due to our conditioning. Entertainment transcends political, social, and religious boundaries and reaches the people on equal ground. We have been so conditioned by the system that only entertainment reaches us without these filters. TPTB control some of it, and we have seen discussions on that very topic, but not all of it, and it may be the very last fort held against the system.
The Illuminati=The Powers That Be. TPTB get their power from the General Public (GenPub)'s collective unawareness.
777 and 999 work as spiritual talismans (of sorts) for MJ that he seems to believe are crucial to be intertwined with his life and actions and that adhering to is important for success in his ventures. He seems to believe these numerical talismans allow him to proceed guided by and protected by god. The 7 is his personal spiritual number, and the 9 equals resurrection.
666 = TPTB and stands for man's callous disregard for each other due to conditioning by the system (TPTB's divide n conquer mentality, pit us against each other so they can swoop in and "save" us). Adding 333 to that concept = 999 (resurrection).
The "movie" addresses and conveys the message to drive public awareness... it will be a public service message "The Media Lies To You!" which would, in theory, destroy TPTB by erroding their pillar of support, ignorance and distraction. This destruction of the media's ivory tower of GenPub trust through awareness and exposure of the ultimate LIE, will work as a domino effect throughout the collective humanity as people's eyes are opened to the truth: MJ is NOT dead, and what you saw was a giant illusion. It was so real... so what else is a Giant Illusion? At that point, ANYTHING you see on TV packaged and delivered to you via the media is suspect. People will never look at the TV and the media the same way again.
This would be a HUGE first step towards healing the world, and would put into motion (like V's dominoes) wide spread change at a grassroots level. Awareness=evolution.
Still probably off topic, but considering what the discussion has devolved into, it's less of a concern at this point.
Bec, do you believe illuminati, TPTB etc? I thought that I saw you wrote you didn't believe it but I may be wrong. Sorry if I'm wrong, just wanted to learn.
So you say, Michael used the numerology just as a talisman? And using 9 9 9 was just about the resurrection and not about making 6 6 6 upside down? I see your point but then why would TS write all about making illuminati upside down, making 666 upside down and make it 999?
Quote
The "movie" addresses and conveys the message to drive public awareness...
And that's exactly what I was trying to say. This is NOT only a movie but also an Awakening message. You can say; a game, an awakening message within a movie but to me this makes there're several reasons for the hoax. Not just for entertainment purposes like a random movie.
I still believe Michael was under threat and his trials were real and this hoax is also a part of it which is also a TAKE OVER plan. TS' explanations about making 666 upside down, the numerology part of the hoax fits perfectly with the hoax scenario in my mind. It's not only because TS explained it to us like that, but I was also thinking the same before I found out about TS, and TS started to make his posts. I always thought the most important reason of the hoax is for threat issues and to awake the public about what's really going on. You become a bigger target when you become a big star, and I do not know anyone who is a bigger entertainer than Michael. So, threats to him would be inevitable. They wanted to ruin his career and destroy all his life with those child molestation allegations. And now it is HIS turn!
So, I can say that I partly agree and partly disagree with you about the WHYs and HOWs of the hoax. I love reading your posts as they're brilliant, and have a big respect to you becminion. bearhug
Post by: paula-c on November 17, 2011, 05:33:32 PM
If we believe it's Michael on the stretcher (and not even playing dead to top it all :lol:) then we assume that there was no one at UCLA that day right?We could be chasing butterflies all day trying to figure this out!
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/kimasabe/ARTWORK%20Graphics%20animations/SMILEYS%20float%20my%20boat%20MORE/chase.gif)
Bottom line....something was wrapped in that sheet!
...but does it really affect the end result?
I don't want to sound presumptuous but honestly my theory is the best :lol: :mrgreen: ... if we say it's all for diversion and FBI is involved then you can pretty much put anything on that stretcher and no one would question. geek/
Yes we might as well try to chase butterflies. :P
I think equal
Post by: PureLove on November 17, 2011, 05:36:55 PM
TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof of Hoax, Not Murder
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Thank you for reminding this one Paula. This sounds very logical to me. Why would he risk to be seen alive at the hospital or inside the ambulance? Alive MJ theory doesn't sound plausible to me.
I agree that it sounds logical but I believe this could very well be one of the false theories that TS said he would support. Why would he basically tell us that's what happened that long ago if we're "supposed" to figure it out? Not that we will figure it all out but at least eliminate some possibilities. I'm with the Michael-was-there-that-day theory and if he risked being seen alive, I think he did it on purpose so that he could have, as an example, that sitting up on the stretcher gif. It's just another way to stick it to the media by being there and (almost) blatantly showing that he is very much alive. Hoaxing your death is a risk no matter how you look at it but Michael had the advantage of being surrounded by his people and the media running with the death story. The "TMZ said he died so it must be true" mentality is where the majority of our society is at.
I get your point very well Andrea babes and I'm so so surprised to see that we disagree about something in this hoax journey. :lol:
Just wanted to remind that TS wrote this in one of his Updates. When he was making his updates, he never wrote about he would be supporting wrong theories. So, I'm not sure if we could apply his "I'll be supporting wrong theories" words here, on his update which he had made months before he wrote about supporting wrong theories.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 17, 2011, 05:38:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken the autopsy mentioned things like surgical scars on the ears for example, I think we can be certain that MJ wouldn't get surgery on his ears but someone trying to look like him might.
personally son, though you do make some interesting points about michael not having everyone on his side, you and i have to agree to disagree. i certainly dont judge you for your belief if body theory, it personally just doesnt work for me. i actually love everyone here. i really do. despite that there are so many people with opposing opinions. again, i will gladly admit that theories i am choosing to go by may potentially be wrong, and thats ok. i dont mind being wrong. being wrong is not always a bad thing. and when mj bams and details are revealed, i dont need to be able to say, "yep, thats what i was saying all along. i was right" because it really doesnt matter about the details (for me personally) as long as mj is alive. IMO, mj's vision, motive and reasons behind DH are more important to me. not the logistics of how 25.06.09 was carried out.
but anyways, one last thing just want to point out abt your quote above which i have reposted is that... really if there was no AR carried out on REAL MJ, (which we know it is not real AR for MJ, as MJ is alive) then really, are all the details, such as ear scars amongst others mentioned in the AR, completely reliable considering that the AR is not for MJ anyway? ... i guess my point is that a false document really cant be used as a source of evidence to show or prove that it was a cadaver on the table, because MJ was never really on the autopsy table anyway and therefore the AR is not applicable to him. perhaps the AR could just be a "piece of paper" if the coroner was in and in fact not a document applicable to a dead body at all.
sorry if this doesnt make sence. im not sure i am articulating myself clearly. but i know what i am trying to say and pretty certain that the way i am writing it will not make sence, lol /scream/
anyway. opposing opinions are great. its how truths are discovered as we are pushing the boundaries of what we are 'fed' to believe, whether this is by media, or by MJ....
Post by: Andrea on November 17, 2011, 06:20:42 PM
I get your point very well Andrea babes and I'm so so surprised to see that we disagree about something in this hoax journey. :lol:
I was just in the shower a few minutes ago thinking the same thing! :lol: We're usually on the same page so it felt weird disagreeing with you, lol. Love you all the same if not more!! Oh, and I was thinking about you in the shower in the non-creepiest way possible.
Post by: Andrea on November 17, 2011, 06:25:39 PM
From TMZ:
Quote
Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA
Originally posted Mar 30th 2010 6:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
TMZ has learned doctors who worked on Michael Jackson at the UCLA Medical Center ran two EKGs on the singer, and at least one doctor who interpreted the results claims there was heart rhythmic activity both times.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2010/03/30/0329_murray_jackson_ex_getty.jpg)
Furthermore, sources tell TMZ Dr. Conrad Murray insists he was able to restart Jackson's heart at the singer's home before paramedics arrived and then maintained heart activity in the ambulance.
Dr. Murray's evaluation contradicts paramedics at the scene who wanted to take Jackson to the morgue, not UCLA, because they believed he was dead.
It also contradicts Joe Jackson's lawyer, Brian Oxman, who tells TMZ he believes Jackson was dead even before paramedics arrived at the house. Oxman says the weak pulse detected at UCLA was in reaction to resuscitation efforts.
We're told the criminal case is shaping up as a legal war between medical experts, who will be interpreting medical tests and charts in various ways -- always confusing for a jury.
http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/
Typical tabloid dross or a HUGE clue?
8)
Post by: MissG on November 17, 2011, 06:28:21 PM
NOTE to the peson who didn't understand the significance of these pictures*
The post on Craig's FB wall with these photos was titles "LA Coroners Annual Party". They honoured all the deceased celebs of that year (2009), with photos on each table. But when it gets to MJ, there's a pic of E'Cas... NO PHOTO OF MJ. Seems pretty clear to me. They (the coroners) could have been confused with the picture IF E'CAS' NAME WASN'T WRITTEN ACROSS IT!!!
Hahahahahahahaha...thanks for the laughs!
Post by: MissG on November 17, 2011, 07:05:28 PM
the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved.
I understand the how´s as the "how come".
I can´t come to a conclusion of the "how come" but I can understand that the most plausible scenario here is that somehow:
-the death of MJ happened, but not in the date said (may be in the past). By this, the event has been reproduced almost as it happened and has been taken to justice in theory.
-the death of MJ could have happened (in the future)and this was just a reminder or warning.
There are different ambo pics out there as well as the images of the strecher, delivered by different medias. To be 100% sure which one could be the right one would be cocky.
We also got Murray´s version vs everybody elses.
To be able to resolve the how´s i believe it´s necessary to have listened to MJ previous that day (June 25th) and know more about key people.
The only version we got from him was in resume "It´s all for love", "we got 4 years" and his concerns about the planet. More back in time he said "this is it","this would be my final performances in London--the final courtain call", and in between Murray taped him talking about a Children´s Hospital -MJ children´s Hospital"
At this point I can only see the "how come" after listening how AEG pushed him regarding his finances and Michael´s dream of a children´s hospital all together. Also, Michael knew that he was more worth death than alive.
Michael was awared that bad news sell better than good ones and a "tragic" death labeling him as druggie + Murray´s latest documentary and trial would make the perfect scenario to make $$ using the media. I also believe he (or his advicers for the hoax) was/were aware of how his death would revive his music again and some "post MJ" love histeria would go all over the world generating more income.
I can´t reach a conclusion of the How´s to this point (how come or how was put together) but at times it feels like reading a diary, an open book of someone elses experience that has been taken to the big screen.
Post by: paula-c on November 17, 2011, 08:07:46 PM
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/video?id=6884954
The girl said clearly that there were 3 ambulances, if we take the fire truck, 2 ambulances were still there. Apparently, there were more people outside of them traditional images they showed us. She says something about vans open that circulates through the blockade and the ambulances and the images of everything that we see from that day only Ben and his people were outside.
What this witness said that did not join with images of Ben we have seen ... the other day" ..
And the amount of cars was in the house at night? 8)
Post by: MissG on November 17, 2011, 08:22:55 PM
We learned at the trial the 911 call procedures. It takes time to process the call but at the end one unit would arrive. Why 3 units?
Post by: PureLove on November 17, 2011, 09:34:34 PM
I get your point very well Andrea babes and I'm so so surprised to see that we disagree about something in this hoax journey. :lol:
I was just in the shower a few minutes ago thinking the same thing! :lol: We're usually on the same page so it felt weird disagreeing with you, lol. Love you all the same if not more!! Oh, and I was thinking about you in the shower in the non-creepiest way possible.
Girl, thinking about me in the shower is already the creepiest thing that can happen in this hoax journey, trust me. :lol:
Actually I made you think of me in the shower because I was trying to say, "Splash some water in your face, wake up and see the truth" :lol: JK :mrgreen:
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 09:44:22 PM
As for the rest, have fun. The last 15 pages have been nothing but a perpetual hamster wheel time machine.
Post by: Aidan_81 on November 17, 2011, 09:48:13 PM
The last 15 pages have been nothing but a perpetual hamster wheel time machine.
- LOL bec I feel the same :|
Post by: Andrea on November 17, 2011, 10:43:08 PM
I get your point very well Andrea babes and I'm so so surprised to see that we disagree about something in this hoax journey. :lol:
I was just in the shower a few minutes ago thinking the same thing! :lol: We're usually on the same page so it felt weird disagreeing with you, lol. Love you all the same if not more!! Oh, and I was thinking about you in the shower in the non-creepiest way possible.
Girl, thinking about me in the shower is already the creepiest thing that can happen in this hoax journey, trust me. :lol:
Actually I made you think of me in the shower because I was trying to say, "Splash some water in your face, wake up and see the truth" :lol: JK :mrgreen:
:lol: :lol: We will agree to disagree for now then. "Try to see it my way, only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong." (Beatles)
And sorry for being unintentionally creepy. :lol: Just relaying an honest moment in my life. I guess it was too much information. :lol:
Post by: Andrea on November 17, 2011, 10:48:05 PM
@Ford, do not try to stuff me into your parameters of "love".
As for the rest, have fun. The last 15 pages have been nothing but a perpetual hamster wheel time machine.
Funny you mention a rodent because these TIAI exercises sometimes make me feel like a lab rat in an experiment. I'm surprisingly ok with that though, I choose to participate.
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 10:59:31 PM
Ps. the article you posted at the top of the page? Big fat clue. Along with all the times they all caps'ed NOBODY. Just my opinion though, and remember, I'm a lunatic.
Post by: Andrea on November 17, 2011, 11:05:29 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 17, 2011, 11:08:27 PM
This one - http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=18688.0 - also talking about who/what/if anything went to UCLA. :lol:
Post by: BeTheChange on November 17, 2011, 11:14:31 PM
As for the rest, have fun. The last 15 pages have been nothing but a perpetual hamster wheel time machine.
But because it's MJ we're talking about...the 'wheel' looks like this:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRDlhqtCAlla218MBQJctK6MhLWuLtQaA_HI4951M4p4b996CMY_Txkw92c)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Bec...breathe in, breathe out...repeat until the frustrations ease. It's the only way any of us are gonna survive this lol...cause the frustrations will keep coming (possibly from several directions).
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 17, 2011, 11:27:52 PM
Alas I still have a smart mouth.
Post by: MJonmind on November 18, 2011, 12:19:01 AM
But he won't budge. Is it even possible to figure it out, with all the contradictory info we have on the table?
Hey I think there's 32 buckets on that Ferris wheel!
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 18, 2011, 12:24:59 AM
the silver lining is that more people are believing, the army of l.o.v.e is growing and mj's message is being spread. we are divided by opinion / theories, but united to the cause / reason of DH and are all here to support mj equally even if we disagree on the details. /white flag/
LOVE to all.
bearhug
So do we say to TS now, enough with the teasing? Are we allowed to say, "We give up, so tell us!"
But he won't budge. Is it even possible to figure it out, with all the contradictory info we have on the table?
Hey I think there's 32 buckets on that Ferris wheel!
LOL only someone with hoaxy eyes suspicious// would count the buckets and find a connection to fit (JK)... love it.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 12:34:49 AM
But why are you calling yourself a lunatic? Or you don't mean lunatic but "lunatic" errrr?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 12:42:44 AM
Dr. Murray -- Dead Body Found in Courthouse Sweep
1/25/2011 12:20 PM PST BY TMZ STAFF
Dr. Murray -- Dead Body Found in Courthouse Sweep
Just hours before Dr. Conrad Murray was scheduled to appear at an L.A. County courthouse today for his arraignment in the death of Michael Jackson ... officials discovered a dead body in a sweep of the grounds ... TMZ has learned.
(http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h478/GINAFELICIA/bodycourt-homeless-ex3-credit.jpg)
Several officers were doing their daily sweep of the premises to wake up the homeless and shoo them away before court opens ... when they came across a homeless person who at first appeared to be sleeping -- but turned out to be dead.
We're told the coroner has already been called to the scene.
Post by: bec on November 18, 2011, 12:47:19 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 12:56:19 AM
I said I wasn't frustrated with TIAI.oh....
I hope you don't feel frustrated for the rest. It's just suppositions bec and you know very well there's no way we can prove one theory or another, so there's no sense in getting upset or frustrated when people explore other possibilities.
Any of the theories satisfy all the criteria, not even the dead MJ theory.
Post by: curls on November 18, 2011, 02:03:50 AM
Together they gather, their lunacy shared ....
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZC0Y0U-r90[/youtube]
Post by: RK on November 18, 2011, 02:21:36 AM
Post by: Mish1981 on November 18, 2011, 02:42:08 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uX0FzYULbDI/TqhNOf-Q6RI/AAAAAAAAAE8/w-h6ASi3JMI/s1600/zombie_hamsters.jpg) Hello????? TS???? Too much time on the hamster wheel has taken it's toll. :idea: Or was that the point....zombie hamsters cause this is Thriller 2.
That's about the way I feel! HA HA
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 18, 2011, 03:11:32 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uX0FzYULbDI/TqhNOf-Q6RI/AAAAAAAAAE8/w-h6ASi3JMI/s1600/zombie_hamsters.jpg) Hello????? TS???? Too much time on the hamster wheel has taken it's toll. :idea: Or was that the point....zombie hamsters cause this is Thriller 2.
That's about the way I feel! HA HA
Lucky you.... It's the way I LOOK! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 18, 2011, 03:51:25 AM
The MJ is dead scenario means:
Real 911 call
Firetruck and ambulance to the house
Ambulance to UCLA
MJ to ER
MJ dead -> to hospital morgue
MJ body transported to heli platform
Heli to coroner
The MJ is alive scenario means you only have to change one thing: remove MJ from the scenario.I still don't see a good reason to use a corpse, no one has been able to convince me of that. Maybe they have used a dummy, but that seems not needed either. The 'body' was protected the whole time by security, and I think that if MJ doesn't want anyone near 'him', that no one will be able to get near 'him'. Everyone who handled the body must be in one way or another, so they wouldn't need a body or a dummy. If they would have used a real corpse, some might even have problems treating that as a real emergency, performing CPR while knowing that there is no use, breaking ribs and all. I could imagine people having problems with this. So for the sake of creating a scenario to make their statements more truthful, I would think they used a dummy instead of a corpse. They already know, so why a corpse? But the stories aren't adding up anyway, which makes me believe there wasn't a scenario created at all. Professionals are very capable of imagining such a scenario in my opinion.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 18, 2011, 03:55:31 AM
But the stories aren't adding up anyway, which makes me believe there wasn't a scenario created at all.[/color]
can you explain what you mean by the above line.
you mean they reported on event that didnt happen as though it did happen... doesnt that mean that if that is the case that mj didnt even have to go to UCLA at all, if all are in to coroborate a story...
by the way - thanks for bring the thread subject matter back to the spotlight. hopefully soon TS can come along and 'grade' our consensus...
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 07:25:04 AM
And also to prevent the risk of someone accidentally looking into the ambulance and see an empty gurney, in spite of all the security. Of course for this a dummy was also good, but in this case the paramedics have to be in.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 07:32:53 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uX0FzYULbDI/TqhNOf-Q6RI/AAAAAAAAAE8/w-h6ASi3JMI/s1600/zombie_hamsters.jpg) Hello????? TS???? Too much time on the hamster wheel has taken it's toll. :idea: Or was that the point....zombie hamsters cause this is Thriller 2.
That's about the way I feel! HA HA
Lucky you.... It's the way I LOOK! :lol: :lol: :lol:
If that's the way you look now I guess I'm taking back my love errrr errrr errrr :lol: :lol:
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 18, 2011, 08:01:36 AM
For me, Michael used a stunt double to do this tour for him.
The total number of people involved, would be, so: two paramedics, Dr. Cooper and his assistant coroner and of course two or three security guards Michael!
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 18, 2011, 08:06:34 AM
So do we say to TS now, enough with the teasing? Are we allowed to say, "We give up, so tell us!"
But he won't budge. Is it even possible to figure it out, with all the contradictory info we have on the table?
Hey I think there's 32 buckets on that Ferris wheel!
100% agree! /pull hair/
Post by: paula-c on November 18, 2011, 08:27:06 AM
Post by: Adi on November 18, 2011, 08:35:35 AM
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uX0FzYULbDI/TqhNOf-Q6RI/AAAAAAAAAE8/w-h6ASi3JMI/s1600/zombie_hamsters.jpg) Hello????? TS???? Too much time on the hamster wheel has taken it's toll. :idea: Or was that the point....zombie hamsters cause this is Thriller 2.
hahahaha.....hilarious.
That's what my eyes look like after reading this thread. It's been a long time on the hamster wheel since those heady days of 2009.......
I'm going to try to add something more constructive to this discussion/debate tomorrow (Oz time) respect/
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 18, 2011, 08:43:48 AM
@bec and other 'oldies' - i apologise if i have added to any of the frustration that anyone is feeling. i know it is must be frustrating for oldies reading newbies posts that are juvenile compared with people that have been here for a long time. newbies are just piecing together what have been known truths to the oldies for some time now.
the silver lining is that more people are believing, the army of l.o.v.e is growing and mj's message is being spread. we are divided by opinion / theories, but united to the cause / reason of DH and are all here to support mj equally even if we disagree on the details., /white flag/
LOVE to all.
bearhug
(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/love/peace/dove.gif)
.............Yes, please be gentle with us "newbies".
We're not trying to cause confusion, just trying to catch up to the rest of you
(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/work-school/school-studying/computing.gif)
All your hard work and efforts are truly appreciated!
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u132/beedah2/Smiley/smiley-thankyou.gif)
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 18, 2011, 09:09:37 AM
(http://participacion.elpais.com.uy/historiasdemiedo/files/2010/12/manicomio.jpg)
Paula-c why so sad?! :cry: This will cheer you up! :lol:
[embed=425,349]<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hse1btS7jR0?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hse1btS7jR0?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>[/embed]
......It's hamster time! typing/
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 09:23:54 AM
A hamster dancing doesn't fit in any scenario /pull hair/
Post by: BeTheChange on November 18, 2011, 09:32:55 AM
Hey I think there's 32 buckets on that Ferris wheel!
LOL...and 'word on the street' is that the original only has 31 :lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 18, 2011, 09:41:34 AM
A life without love & laughter....is no life at all.
...anything else you do makes no difference...
/white flag/
......back to work typing/
Post by: paula-c on November 18, 2011, 09:48:58 AM
/bravo/
A life without love & laughter....is no life at all.
...anything else you do makes no difference...
/white flag/
......back to work typing/
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 18, 2011, 10:29:02 AM
Here's what I think....the helicopter/van transport was a test.
Not a scene in a movie, not a clue to decipher etc....a simple test.
What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :?
Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?
Just because we see a body being air transported to the Coroner, that is suppose to convince us that it was MJ?....It could have been a regular John Doe for all we know.
...I think we're chasing our tail for no reason. We're still following what is being "shown"/"told" to us.
The ambulance story ended with it's arrival at UCLA...we had the pieces of the puzzle all along.
Flashback....
Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?
What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?
#epicfail
Post by: bec on November 18, 2011, 11:12:22 AM
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 18, 2011, 11:32:24 AM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
I'm on board....I vote YES!
Post by: paula-c on November 18, 2011, 12:39:58 PM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
Yes, i agree with those two points
Post by: MFFreedom on November 18, 2011, 12:58:31 PM
Okay,
Here's what I think....the helicopter/van transport was a test.
Not a scene in a movie, not a clue to decipher etc....a simple test.
What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :?
Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?
Just because we see a body being air transported to the Coroner, that is suppose to convince us that it was MJ?....It could have been a regular John Doe for all we know.
...I think we're chasing our tail for no reason. We're still following what is being "shown"/"told" to us.
The ambulance story ended with it's arrival at UCLA...we had the pieces of the puzzle all along.
Flashback....
Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?
What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?
#epicfail
Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post.
Post by: MFFreedom on November 18, 2011, 12:59:26 PM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
Yes, i agree with those two points
Me, too.
Post by: MsTrinity333 on November 18, 2011, 01:10:32 PM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
I'm on board....I vote YES!
Yes.
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 18, 2011, 01:27:23 PM
Okay,
Here's what I think....the helicopter/van transport was a test.
Not a scene in a movie, not a clue to decipher etc....a simple test.
What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :?
Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?
Just because we see a body being air transported to the Coroner, that is suppose to convince us that it was MJ?....It could have been a regular John Doe for all we know.
...I think we're chasing our tail for no reason. We're still following what is being "shown"/"told" to us.
The ambulance story ended with it's arrival at UCLA...we had the pieces of the puzzle all along.
Flashback....
Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?
What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?
#epicfail
Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post.
Don't be sad friend. Here is a hug to make you feel better!
bearhug
Sending you lots of LOVE!!!!!! :)
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 18, 2011, 01:43:55 PM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
I'm on board....I vote YES!
Yes.
yes
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 18, 2011, 01:47:45 PM
Okay,
Here's what I think....the helicopter/van transport was a test.
Not a scene in a movie, not a clue to decipher etc....a simple test.
What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :?
Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?
Just because we see a body being air transported to the Coroner, that is suppose to convince us that it was MJ?....It could have been a regular John Doe for all we know.
...I think we're chasing our tail for no reason. We're still following what is being "shown"/"told" to us.
The ambulance story ended with it's arrival at UCLA...we had the pieces of the puzzle all along.
Flashback....
Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?
What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?
#epicfail
I think you got a point by that
Post by: paula-c on November 18, 2011, 01:53:01 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 18, 2011, 02:02:32 PM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
Yes, i agree with those two points
I agree as well.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 18, 2011, 02:05:38 PM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
I'm gonna vote 'yes' based on it being my initial 'gut' feeling and based on it making 'sense' for realism/less risk sake. I've elaborated on the 'breakdown' of my support of this theory in past posts. In voting 'yes', though, I totally concede that it is very difficult to prove.
Having said that, though (and oddly enough)...the runner up 'theory' (for me) is that nothing happened at Carolwood or UCLA on June 25th, as far as any ambulance goes. My reason for that is because all we have to go on is words/interviews/'evidence' by Ben, Murray, Alvarez, other bodyguards, paramedics, Kai, and UCLA doctors. I'm sure I'm forgetting some...but the point is that they have ALL lied at some point or other...and if they haven't ALL lied, enough of them have that the 'truth' has been too muddied to shine through. Can we trust ANY of these people? If the answer is 'no'...then ALL 'events' of June 25th come into question.
That's pretty much where I'm at....at both ends of the scale.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: monstertooty on November 18, 2011, 02:11:33 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 18, 2011, 02:16:00 PM
No.1
I guess we have to ask another question: Who's to say in these media videos it really WAS Michael? Who of the media can prove that they really filmed 'Michaels' corpse being transported. How did the media know that Michael will be transported by a helicopter ...? All ready with another heli? It's as if someone was inside with those guys transporting 'Michael' and then telling the helicopters that 'We're on our way with Michael'. VERY UNLIKELY-IF if is not a hoax. Which also means, (speculation) that the guys transporting a gurney with someone wrapped up in sheets on it only received an order to transfer 'that body' with the sherrifs' heli, change of plans. We have been told it was Michael, but they can tell us anything. I say, it was someone else who really died and the guys just had the order to bring the body up onto the roof to a heli for a transfer to the coroner. They did not know anyhting or who it was, ergo, they were used as a smoke screen. Without knowing it. Change of plans can always happen. But most don't ask further questions.
No. 2
is in works ... :-)
Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post.
With many voices and many opinions, sometimes you just have to shout above the crowd ;)
...I hear you...I'm listening....Thank you. respect/
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 02:22:15 PM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
I kept saying this on the first few pages but then I became tired to repeat it. Yes I believe there was one ambulance at Carlwood and the same ambulance arrived to UCLA on June 25th 2009.
Post by: MJonmind on November 18, 2011, 02:27:02 PM
Paula, your last pic was so comforting, at least we'll all be together... :lol:
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 02:32:35 PM
So in case Michael didn't die, it was not himself in the ambulance but a dead body, a dummy or nothing. If it was indeed him, alive, in the ambulance, means that Jermaine really said airport by mistake.
Of coarse what Jermaine really meant was that Michael was already dead way before he arrived at the hospital, this way trying to justify it was a conspiracy. I just can not understand how Jermaine can be so calm while saying they were after his brother to kill him.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 18, 2011, 02:42:38 PM
Everyone remember this article?
From TMZ:QuoteConrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA
Originally posted Mar 30th 2010 6:00 AM PDT by TMZ Staff
TMZ has learned doctors who worked on Michael Jackson at the UCLA Medical Center ran two EKGs on the singer, and at least one doctor who interpreted the results claims there was heart rhythmic activity both times.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2010/03/30/0329_murray_jackson_ex_getty.jpg)
Furthermore, sources tell TMZ Dr. Conrad Murray insists he was able to restart Jackson's heart at the singer's home before paramedics arrived and then maintained heart activity in the ambulance.
Dr. Murray's evaluation contradicts paramedics at the scene who wanted to take Jackson to the morgue, not UCLA, because they believed he was dead.
It also contradicts Joe Jackson's lawyer, Brian Oxman, who tells TMZ he believes Jackson was dead even before paramedics arrived at the house. Oxman says the weak pulse detected at UCLA was in reaction to resuscitation efforts.
We're told the criminal case is shaping up as a legal war between medical experts, who will be interpreting medical tests and charts in various ways -- always confusing for a jury.
http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-heart-ekg-paramedics-ucla-medical-center-wrongful-death/
Typical tabloid dross or a HUGE clue?
8)
Both!
Post by: MFFreedom on November 18, 2011, 02:45:37 PM
Okay,
Here's what I think....the helicopter/van transport was a test.
Not a scene in a movie, not a clue to decipher etc....a simple test.
What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :?
Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?
Just because we see a body being air transported to the Coroner, that is suppose to convince us that it was MJ?....It could have been a regular John Doe for all we know.
...I think we're chasing our tail for no reason. We're still following what is being "shown"/"told" to us.
The ambulance story ended with it's arrival at UCLA...we had the pieces of the puzzle all along.
Flashback....
Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?
What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?
#epicfail
Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post.
Don't be sad friend. Here is a hug to make you feel better!
bearhug
Sending you lots of LOVE!!!!!! :)
Thank you. bearhug
Post by: MFFreedom on November 18, 2011, 02:50:08 PM
No.1
I guess we have to ask another question: Who's to say in these media videos it really WAS Michael? Who of the media can prove that they really filmed 'Michaels' corpse being transported. How did the media know that Michael will be transported by a helicopter ...? All ready with another heli? It's as if someone was inside with those guys transporting 'Michael' and then telling the helicopters that 'We're on our way with Michael'. VERY UNLIKELY-IF if is not a hoax. Which also means, (speculation) that the guys transporting a gurney with someone wrapped up in sheets on it only received an order to transfer 'that body' with the sherrifs' heli, change of plans. We have been told it was Michael, but they can tell us anything. I say, it was someone else who really died and the guys just had the order to bring the body up onto the roof to a heli for a transfer to the coroner. They did not know anyhting or who it was, ergo, they were used as a smoke screen. Without knowing it. Change of plans can always happen. But most don't ask further questions.
No. 2
is in works ... :-)
Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post.
With many voices and many opinions, sometimes you just have to shout above the crowd ;)
...I hear you...I'm listening....Thank you. respect/
Thank you, too. bearhug I know, I was just getting a bit frustrated and i know that the discussion is hothothothot /cook/. But back to topic, shall we? ;D
Post by: monstertooty on November 18, 2011, 02:54:30 PM
Post by: PureLove on November 18, 2011, 02:58:27 PM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
Yes, i agree with those two points
I agree as well.
I agree because I don't want Andrea to think of me in the shower again. :lol:
Post by: Jacaranda on November 18, 2011, 03:00:40 PM
What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :?
Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?
That would seem plausible, but Tohme came out to the roof and escorted the 'body' right to the heli door. :|
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
Yes, i agree with those two points
I agree as well.
I agree also
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 18, 2011, 03:02:19 PM
Okay,
Here's what I think....the helicopter/van transport was a test.
Not a scene in a movie, not a clue to decipher etc....a simple test.
What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :?
Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?
Just because we see a body being air transported to the Coroner, that is suppose to convince us that it was MJ?....It could have been a regular John Doe for all we know.
...I think we're chasing our tail for no reason. We're still following what is being "shown"/"told" to us.
The ambulance story ended with it's arrival at UCLA...we had the pieces of the puzzle all along.
Flashback....
Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?
What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?
#epicfail
Thank you very much. On page 17 I have said the same thing. I'm really a bit sad as it feels sometimes as if this is some exclusive club where others have no big chance to dive into. I got one post answering my post.
Quote
Remember during the trial when they claimed Dr. Murray tried to kill himself and they flashed this picture of someone being transported to the hospital by ambulance? People jumped to conclusions that it had to be Murray?
What if it's the same lesson and we still aren't getting it?
Good points both of you! :)
Nothing's what it seems, don't believe everything, stick to your own opinion and don't go with the mass opinion, because finally the mass opinion seems to be the truth, which ain't necessarily so.
L.O.V.E.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 03:07:19 PM
If i am not mistaken all we have to put Michael at LAX is Jermaine's "slip-up", the flight record, and the temporary LAX shutdown. That's not a whole lot to go on. There is far more evidence that puts Michael in the ambulance and at UCLA escaping by way of the tunnels. It is much easier for Michael to disappear from UCLA than from Carolwood because the world thinks (at the time) that he is dead, dying, or in a coma. I'm sure Michael was followed everytime he left Carolwood so a ride to the hospital make perfect sense to me as long as he can remain concealed....which he did.
So in this case Jermaine's "slip up" was not a slip up, but a simple mistake.
Could you name some evidence that Michael was in the ambulance and at UCLA? ALIVE?
Post by: PureLove on November 18, 2011, 03:16:24 PM
Quote
For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7. Another major area, that keeps popping up unresolved, is the idea that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on some day other than 6-25-09; and closely related is the fairly common idea that two or more ambulances were used (supposedly different lettering, reflector, wrong shadows, etc).
There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all— so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo).
We agree that there was an ambulance at Carrolwood and it went to UCLA on the 25th but who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance was not resolved and we couldn't debunk any of the theories. Wish I had a clue how we could resolve it and debunk the wrong theories tho. TS was expecting us to do it. I hope we are not disappointing him.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 18, 2011, 03:20:51 PM
If i am not mistaken all we have to put Michael at LAX is Jermaine's "slip-up", the flight record, and the temporary LAX shutdown. That's not a whole lot to go on. There is far more evidence that puts Michael in the ambulance and at UCLA escaping by way of the tunnels. It is much easier for Michael to disappear from UCLA than from Carolwood because the world thinks (at the time) that he is dead, dying, or in a coma. I'm sure Michael was followed everytime he left Carolwood so a ride to the hospital make perfect sense to me as long as he can remain concealed....which he did.
You know when it was even easier to escape? Before the whole circus started, at night for example. I still have that car in my head that left 5 minutes after they arrived back at Carolwood after the last rehearsal, as we can see on the security footage that was shown in court.
Post by: monstertooty on November 18, 2011, 03:23:24 PM
The media told us what they told us, therefore we wouldnt be looking for anything but what we were told with our "pre-hoax" eyes. I think the video of Michael getting out of the coroners van was filmed and presented to us so we would know he had been at UCLA...ALIVE. I'm still organizing my line of thinking on this so bear with me.
The media largely dismissed thecoroner van video making it even more likely that Michael jumped out of it.
Post by: Jacaranda on November 18, 2011, 03:40:43 PM
You know when it was even easier to escape? Before the whole circus started, at night for example. I still have that car in my head that left 5 minutes after they arrived back at Carolwood after the last rehearsal, as we can see on the security footage that was shown in court.
I've been thinking along the same lines. Could it be that he didn't go back to carolwood from staples at all? I seem to remember there was some confusion as to what time mj left the staples that night. some say 12.30am (phillips, ortega i think) and some said 1.30am (dancers and faye, i think). Could a double have gone to carolwood then left straight away, or not, just for the show of it, for awaiting fans?
Post by: monstertooty on November 18, 2011, 03:56:33 PM
If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?
Post by: Andrea on November 18, 2011, 04:06:03 PM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
Yes, i agree with those two points
I agree as well.
I agree because I don't want Andrea to think of me in the shower again. :lol:
Aha! My plan worked...
:ugeek:
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 04:11:09 PM
The coroners van video becomes pointless if Michael didn't go to UCLA on 6/25/2009. Why would it even be created if it wasn't important?
If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?
So we have to choose what's true: Jermaine's slip-up or the coroner's van video. Well I'm not really sure we have to chose.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 18, 2011, 04:12:47 PM
If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?
Based on what we know about Mike, I agree with this. They probably had to talk him out of flying the chopper himself :lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 04:15:05 PM
The video that we have along with with the TMZ article stating Michael was alive at the hospitalSorry what video is that?
Post by: Andrea on November 18, 2011, 04:19:53 PM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 18, 2011, 04:21:22 PM
TS hey hey TS
TS don’t you hear me calling TS
TS boy you know you are the one to help us out
Hey hey TS
TS don’t you miss us just a little
TS after all you're the only one who can help us out
Come on back to us TS
TS come on back to us boy
Hey hey TS
TS it’s been long so long
TS since you’ve been gone
Hey hey TS
TS don’t you need us just a little
TS ’cause honest boy you're the only one that can keep us sane
Come on back to us TS
Oh come on back to us boy
TS, we need you
TS why d’you keep a-running away
Oh baby you keep a-running away
Oh baby yeah TS
We need you honey
Oh TS you sweet little sunflower
Oh hear my plea for sympathy
We just want you here with us TS
If you’re online that lonely night
What’s this thread without you boy
We're so puzzled we look crazy
Without you darling this thread is through
Come on back
Here, I wrote a SONG for you. Ain't that something? How can you resist a plea for help like that? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: monstertooty on November 18, 2011, 04:22:29 PM
Post by: bec on November 18, 2011, 04:27:32 PM
The coroners van video becomes pointless if Michael didn't go to UCLA on 6/25/2009. Why would it even be created if it wasn't important?no it does not sound like MJ to me.
If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?
I agree the van video was made for a reason. But i concede it may have been just for fun.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 04:28:04 PM
If you’re online that lonely night
What’s this thread without you boy
We're so puzzled we look crazy
Without you darling this thread is through
:lol:
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 04:31:39 PM
Quote
If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?
Michael was 50 at that time, people change when they get older, I am not quite sure MJ would take crazy rides with the helicopter, wrapped in sheets, just to jump out of the coroner's van. He is a KING, not a clown. Of course, it is very possible that I do not understand him at all.
Post by: monstertooty on November 18, 2011, 04:32:45 PM
Post by: bec on November 18, 2011, 04:33:26 PM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 18, 2011, 04:42:48 PM
Souza is flipping because her man (Murray) is locked up and they wont let her have a conjugal visit. Imagine the frustation /scream/
Miss ma man so much... :'( :'( :'( :'( :lol:
And agreed bec, my dad is in his 60's and he's a big BABY. Men are like that til they die. We women secretly love stuff like that too, but someone has to keep some order, right?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 04:45:35 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 18, 2011, 04:49:43 PM
To prove the media twists the truth with lies and perception....what better way to do that than to not even be present during this whole media circus!
Yeah, I know he's a perfectionist and a thrill seeker what have you, but the ultimate lesson would be to have the media snapping pictures and video taping events that never even involved him.
THAT WOULD BE THE ULTIMATE SMACK DOWN!!!
The 911 call came in for a "50 year old male"...the media assumes it's Michael Jackson and runs with it. (Michael's little helpers play along)
True enough Evenstad and cohorts are there to capture the action like obedient little paps (more fuel to the fire), but ultimately it's one big joke on them (the media at large).
Sorry, but the more I think of it, Michael was no where around for all this...I'd have to go with the "he left before the events of 6/25. Keeping the media dumbfounded for 2 plus years, faking his own death, and pulling off a whole court trial would be "thrilling" enough to say the least.
Pictures and video can be manipulated!....they are not reliable.
All the "evidence" that places Michael on the stretcher, at UCLA, even the coroner van are all forms of media that can be manipulated...THEY SHOW YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE, not what is real.
Michael's helpers that day did a real good job ;)
Post by: MaryK on November 18, 2011, 04:54:04 PM
The coroners van video becomes pointless if Michael didn't go to UCLA on 6/25/2009. Why would it even be created if it wasn't important?
If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?
So we have to choose what's true: Jermaine's slip-up or the coroner's van video. Well I'm not really sure we have to chose.
Actually a "making of" video for the coroner´s van video has been published by RTL.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 04:56:32 PM
50 year old people like to have fun too ya know.
No I don't. I'll tell you in 9 years /overreacting/ /overreacting/ /overreacting/
Post by: fordtocarr on November 18, 2011, 04:59:24 PM
I'm not voting, it don't matter really how and whys of it all.
As long as he's safe, comes back (or not if it's his plan, but I don't see that)and then we'll know we were right anyhow ;)
One guess theory will work as much as another I suppose if we commit to making it happen.
I DO sooooo appreciate all your brain cells in all this work that I no longer have brain cells for and just
believe because I believe :)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 18, 2011, 05:15:35 PM
I better go to bed, she won't BAM tonight I suppose /white flag/
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 18, 2011, 05:50:13 PM
What if the person we saw being transported to the Coroners office had absolutely nothing to do with Michael Jackson.
My reason for thinking this is who told the media the body was going to be airlifted? :?
Are we just blindly assuming the helicopter transport was MJ based on "seeing" him go into the hospital and what the media said?
That would seem plausible, but Tohme came out to the roof and escorted the 'body' right to the heli door. :|
It's all for show...it's to make you believe that it's Michael.
The media see's someone on the roof "associated" with Michael (Thome Thome), so it MUST be Michael.
It's like the 911 call...."50 year old male", it MUST be Michael.
It's the same "perception" trap, assuming things based on how it's presented, not on fact.
Post by: paula-c on November 18, 2011, 05:53:24 PM
Post by: Adi on November 18, 2011, 06:02:56 PM
I agree one ambulance at Carolwood and it went to UCLA on June 25th 2009 for realism sake.
Not willing to agree though that it was Michael in the ambulance, but who or what is for us to figure out in Level 7b, after TS posts the picture with a piece of the puzzle in place.
HOWEVER, I still have that big hint from Judge Pastor ringing in my head regarding the date of the wrapping up of the Dome Project on 9th June 2009. I think some of the "news" footage/imagery we have seen from June 25th might have been filmed during the Dome Project ("that day and the other da...errr"), for example Michael jumping out of Coroners Van.
After all, if movies like Avatar and 2012 can be made with almost complete use of green screen technology then I am fairly confident it would be very simple to make some low quality grainy, jumpy "news" footage meant to be from on 25 June 2009 using green screen.
Post by: paula-c on November 18, 2011, 06:29:28 PM
Well my thoughts are (for what they are worth, I don't know).......
I agree one ambulance at Carolwood and it went to UCLA on June 25th 2009 for realism sake.
Not willing to agree though that it was Michael in the ambulance, but who or what is for us to figure out in Level 7b, after TS posts the picture with a piece of the puzzle in place.
HOWEVER, I still have that big hint from Judge Pastor ringing in my head regarding the date of the wrapping up of the Dome Project on 9th June 2009. I think some of the "news" footage/imagery we have seen from June 25th might have been filmed during the Dome Project ("that day and the other da...errr"), for example Michael jumping out of Coroners Van.
After all, if movies like Avatar and 2012 can be made with almost complete use of green screen technology then I am fairly confident it would be very simple to make some low quality grainy, jumpy "news" footage meant to be from on 25 June 2009 using green screen.
yes i think this also
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 18, 2011, 06:32:01 PM
one ambulance - no body.
i also agree with souza regarding possibility that he left before / after the show started
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 18, 2011, 07:38:09 PM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0
La Toya wrote in her book about the eve of 6/24/09 this is info gathered from when she had spoke with MJ's fans.
Quote
This next quote is rather lengthy, with excerpts from pages 326-331: “Michael’s fans have been particularly helpful in providing useful information. Because they were so loyal to Michael, they knew his habits extremely well and were struck by the deviation from the norm on the nights just prior to, and the night of, Michael’s death. … According to fans, when Michael was on his way to rehearsal on [June 24] the day of his death, as he drove through the gate at Carolwood, he did not roll his window down and talk to them. That was totally out of character for Michael. I’ve never known Michael to behave in that way to a group of fans that had been so devoted to him. … Then, when he arrived at the Staples Center, he didn’t walk over to his fans. … That night, June 24, 2009, Michael’s last night of rehearsal before he died, his usual routine was again interrupted. … A number of men involved in his business dealings, who had never before been there during rehearsals, were waiting that evening for Michael to get there. Michael and the men remained in his dressing room for several hours … I believe that Michael knew at that moment he was going to die soon. … When Michael left his final rehearsal on the night that he passed, he managed to deliver a covert message to some fans through tears. [P] ‘You’ve gotta help me,’ he whispered. ‘You’ve gotta get me out of here.’ … As usual, the fans sped to Carolwood to get there before Michael arrived. They did so, as always, but this night was different. According to the fans who stayed outside Michael’s house every night to watch him come home from rehearsal, on the night of June 24, 2009, the last night before he passed, when he arrived home from rehearsal, the security measures at the house were much different from any other night when Michael returned from rehearsal. A line of roughly ten men were lined up on both sides of his gate. Normally, he had only the two or three security guards that were with him, and the one that was in the post inside the yard. But this night was different, security was everywhere, and again Michael’s car didn’t stop on the way inside the gate. … [One fan reported:] ‘I stand outside the gate, and Michael has the same routine every night. After he comes home from rehearsal, he goes upstairs, and about twenty minutes later the light in a room goes off. The night that he died, the light stayed on all night. I got worried. The light never went off. I didn’t get it. I didn’t understand what had happened. It was very strange. … Oh, and security was acting strange,’ she said. [P] I knew I needed to speak to several other fans regarding that night, and when I did, their stories were the same.”
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lNST8BH1Dw&feature=related[/youtube]
Alberto's job title: Director of Logistics according to his testimony. His job duties include clearing hotels or other places for security measures. To me that says he was trusted enough by MJ for this job. Alberto went out first and scouted places on MJ's request. After MJ knows the place is cleared he then goes shopping. Again this tells me that Alberto is being trusted as much as MJ can trust someone. Alberto is literally making sure MJ's life is protected before MJ goes anywhere.
Knowing that about Alberto, knowing that it was Alberto who made the 911 call, helped Murray with whatever it was Alberto did the day of death, I believe MJ had Alberto in place along with Murray to carry out MJ's plan of his fake death on that day (6/25/09).
I believe MJ watched Alberto and tested him just like he did to Murray. MJ knew who he could count on to help him pull off the Greatest Illusion of his Lifetime.
I believe MJ stayed as long as he could in the room fixing it up to his liking and then he split. I can't pin point the exact timing he left but I don't think it was when the car left out the gate again 5 mins after arrival on 6/24/09.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCYJEqrpBRg&feature=related[/youtube]
Alberto's account of the eve of 6/24/09 contradicts what La Toya said in her book. La Toya's info is coming from second hand sources so I take the info with a grain of salt but Alberto isn't exactly being truthful either. Alberto does not say the word Alive in his testimony when asked if that was the last night he saw MJ alive.
Food for thought.
Hi TS.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 18, 2011, 09:03:19 PM
....were waiting for you TS to catch up.
Post by: paula-c on November 18, 2011, 09:13:22 PM
Post by: bec on November 18, 2011, 11:16:14 PM
The most realistic theory presented is that nothing was put into the ambulance, nothing was on the stretcher, nothing was at ucla, and some other random body was on that helicopter and in that coroner van. On the other hand, Van Video (it deserves a proper title with caps) WAS probably Michael but he filmed it elsewhere and at another time. The man in dark running in behind was a prop, so that the van video later had a verified "camera man".
Really the only hang up I have with this whole theory is the "body" on the helicopter. It does move. It does bend at the waist, and quite fluidly so. I'm not so sure a real corpse can bend like this, even after rigor has subsided. It's a very life-like bend.
Even so, MJ leaving the night before and 6/25/09 Day Zero was all just an illusion: is the most realistic theory, I concede.
(But there's this little voice in me that says it's so MJ to do it all himself. Now keep in mind I thought the same about him popping out of the coffin on 7/7/09, and demasking as Murray (or someone else) in court; BAM. So, for what it's worth, I'm probably wrong about this one too.
It would be so much fun though.
Post by: bec on November 18, 2011, 11:38:52 PM
Quote
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked. Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
It doesn't seem to matter what was on the helicopter or in the coroner's van upon re-read of the OP. All TS is asking is what was in the ambulance.
Post by: bec on November 18, 2011, 11:55:20 PM
From what I saw on the video of loading at Carrolwood, through the gate crack, it *could* have been nothing on the stretcher. I have seen one video version with better quality that shows the paramedic that is hoisting the feet end does *not* have a ponytail, although there is a wide spread misconception that he does, it was just a resolution blob. He is clean cut and is indeed wearing short sleeves. Even on that tape, the stretcher is just a vaguely rectangular, more or less white blob.
That's a little more evidence for nothing went to UCLA on 6/25/09.
However, could not some legality be ensured by allowing these witnesses to be not lying when they said that MJ was there that day and under their care? Does it matter? Again, no idea.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 19, 2011, 01:49:33 AM
Quote from: monstertooty
The coroners van video becomes pointless if Michael didn't go to UCLA on 6/25/2009. Why would it even be created if it wasn't important?
If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?
Well I guess from a public point of view it doesn't, but it does seem pointless from a believer point of view because we already know that this is a hoax...the public are seeing 'the movie' we are behind the curtain...observing how the 'production' is made behind the scenes, looking at in's and out's of the hoax while the movie is being made but not yet seeing the final product. Just like in a Hollywood movie, with all the actors, directors, producers etc.
When MJ does something it's always for a reason, this could, and probably did get people to look into the hoax, I don't know, or like Bec said it could be for fun #PRANKSTER
Forget about a hoax within a hoax...this is an illusion within an illusion... :lol: :?
But yes it does seem to have MJ written all over it, which is what he probably wants us to think...I don't know, MJ's unpredictability and intelligence or underestimated intelligence confuses me, never know what he'll do next.
Which brings a new meaning to; "Where is he, to here he is again"...no, it's more like; "OMG MJ did that #GENIUS, to OMG he does it again #SUPERFRICKENGENIUS"
Post by: curls on November 19, 2011, 02:22:34 AM
I wonder if TS was expecting a nicely organised thread here - with each of the ambulance theories clearly stated once and once only! He only asked us to bring up theories regarding the ambulance(s) at Carolwood and the trip to UCLA (not body, helicopter or coroner's van) and he asked very nicely that we not repeat things. We've hardly fulfilled the brief have we?
IMO we're never going to work this out, we're not meant to. WE are providing the entertainment right now, with our to-ings and fro-ings - I can well imagine someone having a good laugh at our efforts to solve the unsolveable! Any, all or none of the theories could be right. And as Bec just said, does it matter? No idea!
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 19, 2011, 02:29:06 AM
I wonder if TS was expecting a nicely organised thread here
Haha, you know he wasn't...he knew EXACTLY how this thread would end up...he gets it every single time. :x
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 19, 2011, 04:28:18 AM
Quote from: TS
Hints on the “How’s” of the Hoax
In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts}. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?
I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.
For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.
This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/}
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4-38. Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”
Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive.
All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls, thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).
The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=7194.msg116959#msg116959
Post by: MJonmind on November 19, 2011, 04:49:54 AM
Thanks use_your_illusion!
TS, is this on track? /white flag/
Post by: Grace on November 19, 2011, 05:18:13 AM
- MJ went to the airport,
- no body went to UCLA,
- a donated corpse went to the coroner,
- the AR was partially produced in advance based on MJ historical medical documents, partially based on the donated corpse and its features.
However, one does not need to shut LAX down to fly MJ out.
MJ does not need to leave by the main gate at Carolwood since there is a garage exit on Monovale Dr.
MJ does not need to leave by night if his car has tinted windows.
MJ does not need to leave by tunnel if the infrastructure and vehicle used for transport are not open to public eyes.
That's much too much creation of chaos to escape it later.
Smooth, simple and easy. Show the complicated side to the public but keep the trick easy. "Show".
I still do not rely on anybody's statements, "shows" or "asserted truths" and I still do laugh the most about myself.
The tiger will come out of the jungle when it's about his offspring's time.
Until then, I grow into one of these fabulous ladies :lol: but only after having finished doing my dishes and having loved my family and friends, first:
(http://www.traveladventures.org/continents/europe/images/romanian-people07.jpg)
Michael, what a show. I hope you're laughing your socks off.
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2011, 05:22:34 AM
A member long, long ago on the MJKIT forum (sorry I can't recall now who it was) used a Thesaurus to interpret the JCC clues and this one came out as "Carefully prepared dummy"
8-) suspicious// :lol:
hmmmmmmm
Post by: PureLove on November 19, 2011, 06:11:13 AM
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 19, 2011, 09:13:00 AM
Can we all agree that one ambulance was at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 and that one ambulance did indeed go to UCLA?
These two factors were successfully and collectively established, is that correct?
Yes, i agree with those two points
I agree as well.
Agreed!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 19, 2011, 09:14:23 AM
I just thought we should be reminded what TS has said earlier..if this has already been posted then, my bad.Quote from: TSHints on the “How’s” of the Hoax
In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts}. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?
I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.
For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.
This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/}
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4-38. Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”
Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive.
All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls, thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).
The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=7194.msg116959#msg116959
AMEN TO THAT !!
I don't know why i didn't remember that post of TS. But it makes a lot of sense to me. MJ left earlier that day and there's a high probability they used a corpse.
TS I love you bearhug
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 19, 2011, 09:16:08 AM
Honestly, if we just take TS's words at face value, assuming he's not testing us or "supporting a false theory" suspicious// . Then MJ went to the airport, perhaps in the same vehicle that brought a freshly deceased corpse to Carolwood, into the gates late 24th evening on security camera. Were the extra security the fans saw, the FBI making sure all was done properly legally. The room was kept warm to thaw the frozen corpse pale/ for the EMT's to come on time at 12:26 on the 25th, take it away to UCLA, and then the coroners (it would just stay in their vaults). The select few would have known it was all for show, at least the ones directly touching the body. The body in the heli was simply pulled by someone inside to look like it was moving. Sitting -up-MJ could have been photoshopped in, and the van video along with the ambulance pic was done another day. A real dead body is not my favorite kid-friendly choice, but maybe it was the only choice, since we really don't know the why's and if there was a sting or real danger. This would be the simplest explanation, and perhaps allow for fewer people to be in on it. Maybe we were just getting carried away with so many options geek/ .
Thanks use_your_illusion!
TS, is this on track? /white flag/
Maybe there was a dummy in the ambulance from Carlwood to UCLA and a corpse in the helicopter from UCLA to coroner. Just to avoid having a corpse in the same house with the kids, assuming they were really there. But I still believe it was a corpse all the way because I do not see the paramedics IN the hoax.
I rememebr they said MJ had good friends at UCLA so maybe they helped in providing a corpse.
But I still have no explanation to why the black paramedic who testified said he recognized MJ immediately. Maybe he was brought in the hoax later for more confusion.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 19, 2011, 09:24:08 AM
Post by: paula-c on November 19, 2011, 09:51:38 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 19, 2011, 09:57:02 AM
I have only one problem: why they say "OPEN UP 6!!" and not "OPEN UP 7!!"
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jf0QrTFlZII#![/youtube]
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 19, 2011, 05:19:01 PM
Oh, you can read this forum even if you're not registered I suppose.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 19, 2011, 05:35:52 PM
how can TS read our posts when she's never online WTF???
Oh, you can read this forum even if you're not registered I suppose.
Can I ask you why you seem to be so sure that TS is a she?
Post by: MissG on November 19, 2011, 06:11:35 PM
What if Michael went no where and just stayed at the house (in the basement, IDK) and saw all the circus happening? :D
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 19, 2011, 06:42:11 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 19, 2011, 07:16:28 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clnozSXyF4k[/youtube]
How much of what we saw from BEN at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th was real and how much was simply illusion...our 'eyes playing tricks on us'?
It looks like the sky's the limit these days when it comes to creating illusions.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 19, 2011, 07:33:20 PM
Deciding who or what went in the ambulance from Carrolwood to UCLA is going to be hard. We have visual confirmation of them seeming to load the stretcher into the ambulance at the house, but the video quality is such that the stretcher appears only as a white blob. Nothing could have been on it or there could have been a person (or a dummy) under a sheet. To be honest, we don't even have verification that the stretcher depicted in the ucla stretcher.gif came out of ambulance 71 at all, we just assume from the pics. There's no shot of them actually unloading the stretcher, just pushing it through the doors of the ER behind/beside ambulance 71 parked in the bay with it's back door open. It looks that way, as though they just unloaded, but we don't really know that. Does it matter? No idea.Not if it's all a movie....they can SAY this happened or this pic is real...or ANYTHING..and if it's not real at all it don't matter..plus the script can constantly change, or new pics appear, or new evidence as it didn't happen actually.
From what I saw on the video of loading at Carrolwood, through the gate crack, it *could* have been nothing on the stretcher. I have seen one video version with better quality that shows the paramedic that is hoisting the feet end does *not* have a ponytail, although there is a wide spread misconception that he does, it was just a resolution blob. He is clean cut and is indeed wearing short sleeves. Even on that tape, the stretcher is just a vaguely rectangular, more or less white blob.
That's a little more evidence for nothing went to UCLA on 6/25/09.
However, could not some legality be ensured by allowing these witnesses to be not lying when they said that MJ was there that day and under their care? Does it matter? Again, no idea.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 19, 2011, 08:22:26 PM
Post by: bec on November 19, 2011, 08:52:05 PM
If you accept that all of the stalker fans are actors then all the people in the tour bus were actors as well. And the map lady too. Have to throw the Fireman with the truck in there also.
And that means UCLA stretcher .gif was almost certainly green screened because if you're gonna fake one scene there's no reason for any of it to be real.
I suppose it's possible, but it seems very elaborate. Generally the more elaborate a theory becomes, the less realistic it becomes exponentially.
Why bother with all these extras when you could just play act it out for real? There's very little risk play acting this out in live time on scene. No one sees MJ, there's a perfect wall and full gate to block any views. It's very hard to see inside a moving ambulance, and a staged 911 call keeps it off the police scanners which minimizes the resulting crowd. It's the perfect set up for the perfect (crime).
So why go these lengths to green screen this scene? What's the benefit they would be after?
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 19, 2011, 10:06:47 PM
Post by: bec on November 19, 2011, 11:57:18 PM
Honestly, if we just take TS's words at face value, assuming he's not testing us or "supporting a false theory" suspicious// . Then MJ went to the airport, perhaps in the same vehicle that brought a freshly deceased corpse to Carolwood, into the gates late 24th evening on security camera. Were the extra security the fans saw, the FBI making sure all was done properly legally. The room was kept warm to thaw the frozen corpse pale/ for the EMT's to come on time at 12:26 on the 25th, take it away to UCLA, and then the coroners (it would just stay in their vaults). The select few would have known it was all for show, at least the ones directly touching the body. The body in the heli was simply pulled by someone inside to look like it was moving. Sitting -up-MJ could have been photoshopped in, and the van video along with the ambulance pic was done another day. A real dead body is not my favorite kid-friendly choice, but maybe it was the only choice, since we really don't know the why's and if there was a sting or real danger. This would be the simplest explanation, and perhaps allow for fewer people to be in on it. Maybe we were just getting carried away with so many options geek/ .
Thanks use_your_illusion!
TS, is this on track? /white flag/
But again, who exactly is it supposed to fool? Even an ER crew of nurses is going to notice it's VERY dead and probably not recognizable as Michael Jackson. The doctors are clearly in on it, they'd have to be, again, won't be fooled by long dead. The paramedics, again, unlikely to be fooled. Collectively, they "worked" on this long dead body for 2 hours and 5 minutes before Doc Cooper called the hoaxy numerological t.o.d. What is the purpose of that? Why keep a long dead thawed out body around that long? Even if you argue that the paramedics stayed at Carrolwood for 30 min to allow it to warm the rest of the way, you have a thawed out old dead corpse sitting around behind an elaborate back story of 1 hour and ~20 minutes of heroic and desperate lifesaving techniques. These are the only people I can think of wanting to fool by using a real corpse, but I don't know how they can be fooled by a stunt like that. An hour and 20 minutes of working on a corpse, someone in that situation is going to think this is SUPER odd... probably a few someones.
Besides, the 911 call is almost certainly a fake, as there were no random other responders or other media present outside by the time the ambulance left, some reported 30 minutes later, plenty of time for many to arrive if the call had gone over the scanner... as all official calls do. You don't get real (aka not in on it) paramedics from a staged 911 call. So the paramedics almost have to be in on it. The coroner=in on it no matter how you slice it. Using a dead body to fool the coroners guys? Well, it looks like any corpse could have been used... as cover "for the real body" and no one would have questioned it. That doesn't necessitate a real corpse being used starting at Carrolwood. So who, starting at the Carrolwood point, is supposed to be fooled by a real corpse, and therefore spared from having to be in on the hoax?
I agree with you when you say that MJ's face and etc could have been photoshopped into those 3 pics in stretcher .gif. except I'm starting to believe that in actuality nothing was on that stretcher.
I'm not so sure this is unprovable.
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 02:03:59 AM
I was going to let #111 stay up for 11 days after 11-11-11. /cook/
But I decided to cut in a little early. /white flag/
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 20, 2011, 02:08:41 AM
This is my post #112. typing/
I was going to let #111 stay up for 11 days after 11-11-11. /cook/
But I decided to cut in a little early. /white flag/
Oh.... Why? :?: :?: :?:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 02:10:13 AM
TS, lurking the thread is like this:
bangbang bangbang WTF?? WTF?? /woohoo/ /cook/ /cook/ lolol/ WTF?? bangbang bangbang crash/ crash/ crash/ :shock: :? :roll: /bravo/ /cook/ mj_bad/ lolol/
And while he is doing all that, he goes like this:
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110823053756/gleeusers/images/c/c9/Mj-thriller-popcorn-o.gif)
And like this:
/toldya/
Because he will torture us until the time is right-thirty. In the meanwhile, we go like this:
/overreacting/ /overreacting/ /pull hair/ /scream/ /white flag/ bangbang bangbang bangbang crash/ errrr bounce/ bounce/ argue/ argue/ suspicious// pale/ OMG! WTF??
And while doing that, we go like this:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwWuPpDQ-fKPg-7Xa4OmvBk0lAcbGQQsN88kYg8SscTekOu1nxKA)
And like this:
(http://www.cat-health-behavior.com/images/spring-crazy-cats-21243761.jpg)
BUT!
(http://th851.photobucket.com/albums/ab76/_Scribble/LOL%20Funny%20cats/th_lolcatsdotcomhhm5f4skf7r69xwy.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
This may sound a bit deja vu, however ...
You can plan all you want, just make sure that it doesn't go beyond the planning stage!
lolol/ /bravo/
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 02:15:59 AM
BTW: I also agree on the ambulance being at CD and UCLA on the 25th. TS??
TS hey hey TS
TS don’t you hear me calling TS
TS boy you know you are the one to help us out
Hey hey TS
TS don’t you miss us just a little
TS after all you're the only one who can help us out
Come on back to us TS
TS come on back to us boy
Hey hey TS
TS it’s been long so long
TS since you’ve been gone
Hey hey TS
TS don’t you need us just a little
TS ’cause honest boy you're the only one that can keep us sane
Come on back to us TS
Oh come on back to us boy
TS, we need you
TS why d’you keep a-running away
Oh baby you keep a-running away
Oh baby yeah TS
We need you honey
Oh TS you sweet little sunflower
Oh hear my plea for sympathy
We just want you here with us TS
If you’re online that lonely night
What’s this thread without you boy
We're so puzzled we look crazy
Without you darling this thread is through
Come on back
Here, I wrote a SONG for you. Ain't that something? How can you resist a plea for help like that? :lol: :lol: :lol:
A little birdy told me that you could not write a song, not even one--so where did you get this one? :?: suspicious// :?:
... and I can't hear the music. bangbang
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 20, 2011, 02:23:29 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdBCmcAsxuo[/youtube]
Just the melody here, I didn't have my text yet. But you'll get a feel of it. Think it could be a hit? ;D
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 20, 2011, 02:25:09 AM
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 02:30:01 AM
... Think it could be a hit? ;D
Absolutely!
... HIT squarely with a good solid hammer! crash/ crash/ crash/
:lol: :lol:
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 02:31:05 AM
...
At this rate, maybe we can wrap it all up by the end of the weekend :lol:...wouldn't that be great! But something tells me that no matter what we come up with, the ending to the level will occur on a date that's already been predetermined (maybe Nov 29?).
It's possible that we could finish early.
However, we will finish no later than November 29--even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 20, 2011, 02:31:59 AM
... Think it could be a hit? ;D
Absolutely!
... HIT squarely with a good solid hammer! crash/ crash/ crash/
:lol: :lol:
(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/9/5/128966322943143085.jpg)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 02:53:58 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 02:55:12 AM
Oh I am not sure at all, it is just annoying to write he/she all the time.how can TS read our posts when she's never online WTF???
Oh, you can read this forum even if you're not registered I suppose.
Can I ask you why you seem to be so sure that TS is a she?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 02:57:06 AM
And he/she will post it an 1:17? or 11:17? Or 11:07? /pull hair/
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 03:00:45 AM
...
At this rate, maybe we can wrap it all up by the end of the weekend :lol:...wouldn't that be great! But something tells me that no matter what we come up with, the ending to the level will occur on a date that's already been predetermined (maybe Nov 29?).
It's possible that we could finish early.
However, we will finish no later than November 29--even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).
Only nearly complete? Oh I am very dissapointed. I don't know what we can add to it /white flag/
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 03:07:52 AM
If you accept it's green screened then you accept that ALL the stalker fans are actors. ALL of them. Because if ANY of them are real, and they really did have a habit of camping out in front of MJs house, then they would notice that NO ambulance came OR left Carolwood on 6/25/09 and that's a massive risk.
If you accept that all of the stalker fans are actors then all the people in the tour bus were actors as well. And the map lady too. Have to throw the Fireman with the truck in there also.
And that means UCLA stretcher .gif was almost certainly green screened because if you're gonna fake one scene there's no reason for any of it to be real.
I suppose it's possible, but it seems very elaborate. Generally the more elaborate a theory becomes, the less realistic it becomes exponentially.
Why bother with all these extras when you could just play act it out for real? There's very little risk play acting this out in live time on scene. No one sees MJ, there's a perfect wall and full gate to block any views. It's very hard to see inside a moving ambulance, and a staged 911 call keeps it off the police scanners which minimizes the resulting crowd. It's the perfect set up for the perfect (crime).
So why go these lengths to green screen this scene? What's the benefit they would be after?
To piggyback on my last post, the ambulance that arrived and then subsequently left Carrolwood on 6/25/09, would almost have to go to UCLA, because the chances of SOMEONE not in on the hoax jumping in a vehicle to FOLLOW it would be extremely high. Remember all the reports of the stalker fans who would sit outside Carrolwood and then drive behind MJ's entourage to follow him to Staples center or wherever he went. Many reports of this... they would RACE to follow him all around town, wherever he went, to be there to greet him, on the chance that they would see him, have a chance to talk to him, touch his hand, give him gifts, etc.
So the ambulance that indeed arrived at and then left Carrolwood HAD to go to UCLA, just to keep up appearances. The risk of it not doing so, and being detected by one of these stalker fans would be ridiculously high, and again, for what benefit? The hoax had to continue on location @UCLA that day (6/25/09) in order for the next phase to be completed anyway (family arrival, fan vigil outside, stretcher .gif, helicopter footage, etc).
See also: {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370938#msg370938 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370938#msg370938)}
Exactly! Thank-you, bec.
This is the sound reasoning that we need to hear more of, not the fanciful imaginary ideas (although they may be more fun).
We have a general agreement now on level 7a, that things went down on 6-25-09 with only one ambulance (and one firetruck).
So if anyone still wants to support another theory, they need to supply a good solid answer to bec's points here. And if not, we should be about ready to move on.
However, there are still a few points which should be made clearer, and then we can go to 7b.
#1. Nobody responded to this: "I do not know if this had been published before perhaps yes, but anyway, Witness said that there were three ambulances at home that day." {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg372716;topicseen#msg372716 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg372716;topicseen#msg372716)}.
#2. And nobody responded to this: "Aside from all this very interesting, thorough research, Randy Phillips all but told us in his testimony that there were 2 ambulances, if we are to believe ANYTHING he said. He testified that he had a scheduled 10:30 meeting with MJ on the morning of 6/25. Upon his arrival, an ambulance was already leaving the property followed by 2 SUVS. He followed behind them. He also stated that he had received a call from Frank Delio prior to getting to 100 N Carolwood, and was advised that an ambulance had ALREADY been called. My question remains, who called Frank and when? I do believe that MJ made his getaway in that first ambulance, after posing for the picture and before the announcement was made to the world about MJ’s sudden illness giving them time to be gone before all the hoopla started." {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg373228#msg373228 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg373228#msg373228)}
#3. Although not on this thread, there has long been discussion of the shadows pointing opposite directions: shadow to the right in Ben's video of a person carrying the stretcher to the ambulance, and shadows to the left at another time. This has led to the idea that the scenes were filmed at significantly different times (maybe even different days). Can anyone debunk this? If not, I will.
#4. There's at least one YouTube video out there, which lists several reasons why there were multiple ambulances shot at different times, etc. Nobody on this thread has even posted this video, much less debunked it. Can someone help me out here?
As soon as we tackle these, it will be time for 7b! 8-)
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 20, 2011, 03:13:16 AM
#3. Although not on this thread, there has long been discussion of the shadows pointing opposite directions: shadow to the right in Ben's video of a person carrying the stretcher to the ambulance, and shadows to the left at another time. This has led to the idea that the scenes were filmed at significantly different times (maybe even different days). Can anyone debunk this? If not, I will.
I must have missed something, this is the first time I hear about that. Do you have a linky?
#4. There's at least one YouTube video out there, which lists several reasons why there were multiple ambulances shot at different times, etc. Nobody on this thread has even posted this video, much less debunked it. Can someone help me out here?
Missed this too I think. Can someone post that video?
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 20, 2011, 03:19:41 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 03:21:32 AM
Why do we have to go through those points if we already agreed over the ambulance?
Indeed I remember Randy Philips said he was told MJ wasn't breathing somewhere around 10:30 and we wondered how could this be???
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 20, 2011, 03:25:11 AM
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 20, 2011, 03:32:06 AM
JOB WELL DONE guys...at least the bodyguards think so.......
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUxX0fEQU5Q&feature=related[/youtube][youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMpvJI33Vn8[/youtube]
Post by: ForstAMoon on November 20, 2011, 03:57:30 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx8KrGIQ5mg[/youtube]
if you ask me, it looks so much different than the one that gave this photo -----> Ben and Chris a bit in different places
(http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af214/moonter/Slide1.jpg)
- so the official video floating in the media comes from hoax rehearsal, thus you may have different shadows (done during longer period, hence different shadows)
- the one I just posted - is from the one on 25th
:?
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 20, 2011, 04:01:32 AM
...
At this rate, maybe we can wrap it all up by the end of the weekend :lol:...wouldn't that be great! But something tells me that no matter what we come up with, the ending to the level will occur on a date that's already been predetermined (maybe Nov 29?).
It's possible that we could finish early.
However, we will finish no later than November 29--even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).
ahhh , november 29 .......i hope you mean this year(2011) :lol:
Post by: applehead250609 on November 20, 2011, 04:08:43 AM
If you accept it's green screened then you accept that ALL the stalker fans are actors. ALL of them. Because if ANY of them are real, and they really did have a habit of camping out in front of MJs house, then they would notice that NO ambulance came OR left Carolwood on 6/25/09 and that's a massive risk.
If you accept that all of the stalker fans are actors then all the people in the tour bus were actors as well. And the map lady too. Have to throw the Fireman with the truck in there also.
And that means UCLA stretcher .gif was almost certainly green screened because if you're gonna fake one scene there's no reason for any of it to be real.
I suppose it's possible, but it seems very elaborate. Generally the more elaborate a theory becomes, the less realistic it becomes exponentially.
Why bother with all these extras when you could just play act it out for real? There's very little risk play acting this out in live time on scene. No one sees MJ, there's a perfect wall and full gate to block any views. It's very hard to see inside a moving ambulance, and a staged 911 call keeps it off the police scanners which minimizes the resulting crowd. It's the perfect set up for the perfect (crime).
So why go these lengths to green screen this scene? What's the benefit they would be after?To piggyback on my last post, the ambulance that arrived and then subsequently left Carrolwood on 6/25/09, would almost have to go to UCLA, because the chances of SOMEONE not in on the hoax jumping in a vehicle to FOLLOW it would be extremely high. Remember all the reports of the stalker fans who would sit outside Carrolwood and then drive behind MJ's entourage to follow him to Staples center or wherever he went. Many reports of this... they would RACE to follow him all around town, wherever he went, to be there to greet him, on the chance that they would see him, have a chance to talk to him, touch his hand, give him gifts, etc.
So the ambulance that indeed arrived at and then left Carrolwood HAD to go to UCLA, just to keep up appearances. The risk of it not doing so, and being detected by one of these stalker fans would be ridiculously high, and again, for what benefit? The hoax had to continue on location @UCLA that day (6/25/09) in order for the next phase to be completed anyway (family arrival, fan vigil outside, stretcher .gif, helicopter footage, etc).
See also: {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370938#msg370938 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370938#msg370938)}
Exactly! Thank-you, bec.
This is the sound reasoning that we need to hear more of, not the fanciful imaginary ideas (although they may be more fun).
We have a general agreement now on level 7a, that things went down on 6-25-09 with only one ambulance (and one firetruck).
So if anyone still wants to support another theory, they need to supply a good solid answer to bec's points here. And if not, we should be about ready to move on.
However, there are still a few points which should be made clearer, and then we can go to 7b.
#1. Nobody responded to this: "I do not know if this had been published before perhaps yes, but anyway, Witness said that there were three ambulances at home that day." {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg372716;topicseen#msg372716 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg372716;topicseen#msg372716)}.
#2. And nobody responded to this: "Aside from all this very interesting, thorough research, Randy Phillips all but told us in his testimony that there were 2 ambulances, if we are to believe ANYTHING he said. He testified that he had a scheduled 10:30 meeting with MJ on the morning of 6/25. Upon his arrival, an ambulance was already leaving the property followed by 2 SUVS. He followed behind them. He also stated that he had received a call from Frank Delio prior to getting to 100 N Carolwood, and was advised that an ambulance had ALREADY been called. My question remains, who called Frank and when? I do believe that MJ made his getaway in that first ambulance, after posing for the picture and before the announcement was made to the world about MJ’s sudden illness giving them time to be gone before all the hoopla started." {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg373228#msg373228 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg373228#msg373228)}
#3. Although not on this thread, there has long been discussion of the shadows pointing opposite directions: shadow to the right in Ben's video of a person carrying the stretcher to the ambulance, and shadows to the left at another time. This has led to the idea that the scenes were filmed at significantly different times (maybe even different days). Can anyone debunk this? If not, I will.
#4. There's at least one YouTube video out there, which lists several reasons why there were multiple ambulances shot at different times, etc. Nobody on this thread has even posted this video, much less debunked it. Can someone help me out here?
As soon as we tackle these, it will be time for 7b! 8-)
TS,darling I had already told about the "FAKE" fans/reporters ,lol,but it seems that is you that didn't noticed.The FAKE fans are actors and to name 2 of them,here they are:
1.BJ Hickman
(http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Michael+Jackson+Case+Continues+MGuCIzpJSWVl.jpg)
Recently he was at Murray trial also ;D :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5xLYeaPma0&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL0B8FC42CFCC446F0
[/youtube]
2. Mo'Nique from movie PRECIOUS geek/ ,she played as the SELF role,lol lolol/
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Mo%27Nique_SAG_Awards.jpg/220px-)
As about THE AMBULANCEs ,there were 2 and it's CLEAR like the DAY LIGHT,lol :lol: !!!!
Thank you and LOVE you very much!!!
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 20, 2011, 04:55:47 AM
"Fans of Southern California".........as you will see, they are everywhere.......in every photo that is ever published...with Debbie Rowe at Forest Lawn, with the family, at the courts everytime, at the protests, fans that are fighting for Justice for Michael Jackson are either soooo dedicated and don't have a real life, or they are being well paid.......IMO
Post by: MJonmind on November 20, 2011, 05:23:31 AM
In comparing the various videos of the ambulance backing up I still think the shadows are the same, slightly (short) to the left from our streetview. And the positions of Chris and Ben seem to match even with the security guys behind it, because they are all moving around quickly, but somehow in each video their movements synchronize at the right times where they should be. So I see only one event at the same time of day.
As for the second ambulance earlier in the day with maybe real MJ in it, on his way to airport, here's Randy Phillips, at 1:07:25 saying he got the call from Frank Dileo at 10:30 to 11:00 and it took him 15 min. to get to the house just in time to see the ambulance leave with 2 SUV's behind, which he followed to UCLA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=vTFXmUHTrjo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=vTFXmUHTrjo)
The witness saying there were 3 ambulances maybe included the firetruck, or perhaps one left at 11:15 am. (Randy's catch), one left at 11:45 (Star Maps lady), and the third left at just after 1:00 pm. (Ben & Chris's). Don't know what the purpose for the middle one would be except for adding distraction and confusion.
It makes me happy and relieved to know we're finally getting some solid answers. Thanks TS!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 06:16:21 AM
Post by: reveron1958 on November 20, 2011, 06:46:01 AM
@applehead why you say it's clear as daylight there were 2 ambulances?
Does Applehead mean 2 ambulances on the 25th, or 2 ambulances - 1 on the 25th and 1 the 'other day'?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 06:51:57 AM
@applehead why you say it's clear as daylight there were 2 ambulances?
Does Applehead mean 2 ambulances on the 25th, or 2 ambulances - 1 on the 25th and 1 the 'other day'?
IDK, I understand 2 ambulances on June 25th.I am still not sure why Randy Phillips testified that he was told MJ wasn't breathing at 10:30 in the morning, at least this is what I think I've heard him saying in the trial.
Post by: curls on November 20, 2011, 07:56:03 AM
It would be interesting to write the events of 25th June, using everyone's testimony, just to show how full of (?intentional) discrepancies it is!
It could start something like: MJ left Staples at 12.30am and also at 1.30am, after a brilliant rehearsal in which he was excited and happy, telling fans how worried he was and begging them to help get him out, while also being unable to speak to anyone because of increased tightness of security ........
(I may continue but I'd need to put in names and links and I quite simply don't have enough spare hours/days/weeks right now to do the job properly!)
EDIT: sorry that was off topic - TS, if you want our help with these levels, as you say, does that mean YOU really don't know what happened either. IOW, we're all groping around in the dark together! I was kind of hoping you, at least, knew what was what.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 08:05:27 AM
Post by: sandythyme on November 20, 2011, 08:08:37 AM
However, we will finish no later than November 29--even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already). 11/29/2011 is the 333 day of the year. Interesting :) Take care, Love to All
Post by: BeTheChange on November 20, 2011, 09:18:07 AM
Anyhow, I then read TS' posts and I'm gonna trust that he is pointing us in the right direction (and not intentionally supporting 'false' theories lol)...so I'm not gonna persue the 'green-screen' theory and instead stick to my original 'gut' feeling that there was, in fact, an ambulance at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th.
The point TS raises about the shadows is beyond me...I'm not 'skilled' at making sense of shadows lol. If I recall correctly...WishingStar had mentioned that she had looked into the whole shadows issue long ago and posted about it on another thread. Perhaps she can jump in with what she found long ago.
The issue of more than one ambulance on June 25th covers THREE of the four points TS has asked us to look into. I did a quick search on youtube for the vid he mentions in point #4 but haven't had any luck in finding it yet (I'll keep searching). It is clear that at least one person outside Carolwood said there 3 ambulances that showed up AND it's clear that Randy Phillips said there was an ambulance leaving Carolwood at around 10:30am, followed by 2 SUVs. The ONLY video we seem to have of any ambulance at Carolwood that day does show the ambulance leaving, followed by 2 SUVs...BUT we are led to believe that THAT occured sometime around 1pm.
Things that don't make 'sense' with the 'more than one ambulance' theory:
1) Along with Ben's video of the ambulance, there is also at least one other 'fan' vid of the exact same event/timing. IF there was more than one ambulance on June 25th...and the Starline buses are constantly up and down Carolwood...why is there NO other vids (from 'fans' or tour bus people) supporting this claim? Chances are the people on those buses have cameras with them---they are on a tour afterall---so NONE of them thought to record an ambulance leaving MJ's house prior to the one that left around 1pm? I guess it's possible, but it doesn't really make much 'sense'.
2) If Randy Phillips is correct with his timeline (i.e. an ambu left Carolwood at around 10:30am) and he followed it (one would suppose to UCLA)...then the 'illusion' would've begun much sooner than the 'official' timeline of events. 'News' of MJ being rushed to the hospital would've begun circulating MUCH sooner than it actually did. In order to believe RP's recollection of events, we would have to also believe that the 'media' was kept in the dark about the whole thing until much later in the day. Again, it could be possible...but it, too, doesn't make much 'sense'.
3) Further to ^^^, RP's timeline completely contradicts Ben's timeline of events. Not only that but IF an ambulance was there at 10:30am or any other time than the 'official' timeline...how is it that the 'wolves' didn't descend until almost 3 hours (or more) later (i.e. 'media' arrived at Carolwood sometime AFTER 1pm....but probably closer to 1:30pm)? This is Hollywood we're talking about AND Michael Jackson. ANY ambulance arriving at Carolwood would cause commotion and chances are VERY high that the 'media' would get wind of it pretty soon. There is evidence of this based on the 'official' timeline....the 'news' about MJ being rushed to UCLA spread quickly and like wildfire when it WAS happening (as per the 'official' timeline). Again, it could be possible that no 'media' (including Ben) was alerted for 2+ hours or so after an ambulance left Carolwood at 10:30am...but considering WHO we're talking about, that seems pretty unlikely.
I'll keep searching for the vid TS mentions in point #4. If anyone happens to come across it, please post it.
It's really GREAT to know that no matter what, this level will be finished no later than Nov 29 ::P!
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 20, 2011, 10:00:52 AM
I don't think its ever been proven that Randy Phillips is NOT in on the hoax so he could have been told to say the ambulance left much earlier than we were told to cause confusion. It's also possible that he really could have mixed up the times and unfortunately Frank is no longer with us to confirm this unless there are some videos of him confirming the time in an interview.
Randy said that there were 2 SUVs following the ambulance which we also see in the video. Unless there were 4 or more dark colored SUVs at Carolwood then the 2 that left at 10:30 would have to return to Carolwood to follow the ambulance a second time.
I believe TS asked us to prove once and for all if there was only one ambulance at Carolwood on 6/25/09 and if it went to UCLA. I don't recall him asking us to prove what time the ambulance arrived and left. At the end of the tourist's ambulance video we see Linda from star maps crying on the phone right after the ambulance leaves. If Linda said that the ambulance left at 11:45 (can anyone provide documentation of her statement?) then the tourist's video would have to have been filmed at that time too. If this is true then the hollywood tv video would have to have been filmed at 11:45 as well since the videos match up.
Now if Frank claimed the ambulance left Carolwood around 11:15 as per MJonmind's post (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg373316#msg373316) then that gives us a 30 min window of time between 11:15 and 11:45 where one ambulance left Carolwood and went to UCLA. This time discrepancy of 30 mins could be attributed to both Frank and Linda estimating the time the ambulance left. I hope I make sense with what I am trying to say.
Post by: wishingstar on November 20, 2011, 10:26:00 AM
Shadows...one of my favorites subjects! Yes, I looked into them a very long time ago. It's a point I made in some of my very first posts.....that something seemed off about the shadows, but I didn't know what. SInce then I have researched times of year shadows are shortest/longest, when they appear strongest/lightest etc. In 2009, the summer solstice took place on June 21 (777, coincidently).....here is a link to read about that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solstice
I have asked for help on more than one occasion in understanding all this....to no avail. Shadows are easy to understand, yet difficult to explain for me. Think of the sun in the sky. When it's noon, or close to noon, shadows are smallest because the sun is more or less overhead. A simple flashlight and a water bottle can show this. Hold the flashlight above the bottle....move it slowly down/around...you will see the shadow cast change size...it gets longer the more light "sets". When the sun starts setting, shadows are longer. But, they stay constant....they will not switch/change direction. I have recently re-watched the video of the transport to the coroner van. The shadows are huge......look here, and watch the shadows from the people on the ground:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=KXklDCYVveQ
They seem un-naturally lit, rather than naturally shadowed by the sun. This time of day (wasn't it somewhere around late afternoon?), this time of year...I have to question such large shadows being produced in this video.
The video with Ben, the firetruck, the fans, the tour bus......all the shadows play a role. I felt it the moment I saw it. I will find my original posts about it....it was such a long time ago. However, I know shadows must play a role in telling the true time, whether it's green-screened, or time of year......I just know it. "Only the Shadow Knows" keeps playing in my mine, lol!
TS.......thank you for mentioning shadows, perhaps I am not crazy after all. I began a post last night where I basically said human emotions can take control of common sense. We don't see the facts, only the emotions. I believe to become truly knowledgeable, you have to know balance. Lead with your heart, but follow it with common sense and thoughtful decisions/conclusions. Most people take for granted what they see, is what they get. In this case, it's a dead Michael Jackson. If they really, truly looked with their mind's eye..they could see things do not add up. For whatever reasons, we are here doing this, with you, TS, with Front, with Back.....and whoever else might be in the shadows here.
BeTheChange....thank you so much for mentioning my love of shadows in all this....I will be looking back through things to find the information and post it again......you're awesome!
Darn life is calling at the moment, lol.....drat. Oh well....it's been a great morning : )
Blessings to each of you today!
*Kings to you Michael*
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 10:42:02 AM
Timelines from many people don't tie up, not just Randy Phillips. Could be genuine forgetfulness, of script or real life action, or intentional to deliberately cause confusion, so the likes of us question things. I remember RP got out of it in court by admitting he could have been mistaken with his times.
It would be interesting to write the events of 25th June, using everyone's testimony, just to show how full of (?intentional) discrepancies it is!
It could start something like: MJ left Staples at 12.30am and also at 1.30am, after a brilliant rehearsal in which he was excited and happy, telling fans how worried he was and begging them to help get him out, while also being unable to speak to anyone because of increased tightness of security ........
Yes, genuine forgetfulness is quite likely--both with Randy, and with Linda (maps lady). Randy even said in court: "if my memory serves me correctly" (maybe not exact quote). If Randy remembered right, then the ambulance was LEAVING around 10:45 to 11:15 (time Randy said he was notified, plus about 15 minutes for him to arrive). If Linda remembered right, then the ambulance was ARRIVING around 11:45. If they both remembered right, then we have either two different ambulances, or one ambulance coming and going--which has not been supported by any photographic evidence, or any testimony of anyone whatsoever!
Even the witness who remembered ABOUT ("like") three ambulances, indicated that the three were all there AT THE SAME TIME. But Randy and Linda only remember ONE ambulance coming and going (plus the fire truck, which probably was one of the ABOUT/"like" two or "three" ambulances); so if all remember accurately, then we have FIVE ambulances coming and going at different times!!!!! Please someone with a very vivid imagination, please explain to me WHY--WHY, OH WHY ON EARTH would there be FIVE ambulances at Carolwood on June 25, 2009????? And to top this off, the green screen theory (and similar theories) support the idea of ZERO ambulances at Carolwood in 6-25-09!
Yet another serious problem, is that Randy tesified of following the ambulance to UCLA--and then STAYING THERE THE REST OF THE DAY! All of the events he describe match perfectly with the photos and other evidences, EXCEPT the timing--that is the only difference in his story. If he was right about the timing, then all the events of people arriving at the hospital happened twice (at least, maybe three if we go with the five ambulance theory)--yet somehow Randy did not notice the rewind and replay of everything!
Or perhaps Randy is "in on it", and that solves everything. I guess we would also have Linda in on it too, and the three ambulance witness is in on it, along with the entire population of China, and 75% of the rest of the world. bounce/ crash/ :? bangbang
I think it is MUCH easier (and more sane) to realize that people FREQUENTLY forget some things--ESPECIALLY times! When an emergency happens: do you FIRST decide to check the time and write it down, or take very careful mental note of it so that you won't forget? If so, why? Because you are expecting to end up in court, and testify of the times? For most people, no. For professionals, probably (paramedics, police, etc).
In fact, anyone who has much experience in court cases knows that discrepencies in witness testimonies is NORMAL. In fact, a lack of discrepency and perfect harmony is one of the strongest evidences of conspiracy--everyone planned their testimonies so carefully, so that everything would sound real. Take a car accident for example: ten witnesses will usually give somewhere between five and ten different accounts. Some of the details will be the same from everyone (and these details are probably correct); other details will vary. Car had it's blinker on, car did not have the blinker on. Light was red, light was green, etc.
It is for this reason, that I have NEVER used witness discrepencies as any major evidence of the hoax--it is just plain normal. I did show descrepencies in the 911 call timing from BHPD and LAFD; but those were not mere human memories, they were (supposedly) accurate computer-generated and recorded time records, which (if not fabricated) should harmonize within a few seconds at most.
EDIT: This is also why I said, a long time ago, that we should always have AT LEAST TWO OR THREE strong points to support any conclusion--because only one witness is not very reliable. We do not have two or three witnesses stating that the ambulance left around 11:00, we have only Randy. We do not have two or three witnesses stating that the ambulance arrived around 11:45, we have only Linda. We do not have two or three witnesses stating that they saw three ambulances at the same time, etc.
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 10:51:13 AM
EDIT: sorry that was off topic - TS, if you want our help with these levels, as you say, does that mean YOU really don't know what happened either. IOW, we're all groping around in the dark together! I was kind of hoping you, at least, knew what was what.
I already said that I would finish this level single-handedly, if I have to.
But it is much better if others help; then I do not get accused (as much) of brain washing everyone, and this whole forum is just a bunch of people who can't think for themselves, and blindly follow TS.
Also, it takes a LOT of time to debunk everything; just that last post I made took me about an hour (and I didn't even link to any documentation, to save time). You may think that I have all the time in the world, being in jail. LOL. But maybe the Con man is not in jail (and maybe I am not Mr. Murder anyway--cause the context of my statement was pretty obviously not serious).
Post by: paula-c on November 20, 2011, 10:56:40 AM
Paparazzo and Dr. Drew: Unique insight into Michael Jackson's life
On Tuesday night, Dr. Drew spoke to the photographer who snapped the last picture of Michael Jackson inside the ambulance the day the pop star died.
While they walked outside Jackson’s former rented Holmby Hills mansion, Dr. Drew began the conversation by asking Ben Evenstad what sort of things he would look for before that tragic day.
“We were either looking for a doctor's visit because we could always get pictures there, or a shopping trip,” he said.
Evenstad also noticed that Jackson was rehearsing months before his death.
“That started about five to six months [prior],” he said.
Dr. Drew commented on how so much had been made of the few days before Jackson passed away – the notion that he had been in such good shape. “[So] he had been rehearsing for quite some time,” Drew said.
Drew also mentioned how Jackson could sometimes be heard rehearsing in the mansion at night. He was reportedly known for being a night owl.
“He would stay up late,” Evenstad said. “I had a conversation with one of the members of the security staff that indicated there were many times where they took him out where nobody was here, meaning very, very late at night – three in the morning.“
Did this mean that Jackson's sleep problem was already well established?
Dr. Drew asked Evenstad if he had seen anyone making trips pharmacies.
“We would follow security staff,” Evenstad said. “A lot of times they would do advance work – go to a store [or] movie theater. We wanted an idea of what Michael would do later. Often times they would go to pharmacies [and] pick up various things.”
Evenstad said he could never see what was picked up because “they were smart enough to not let that picture out.”
Later, the two began speaking about the day Jackson died.
“One of my photographers was here posted early in the morning,” Evenstad explained. “Shortly after noon, he saw the ambulance arrive [and a] fire truck parked outside ... He alerted me [that there was] an ambulance at the house. At that time we had no idea ... it could be anything ... I got here in like 10 minutes.”
Drew asked if Evenstad was aware that something was seriously wrong.
“At first, we thought maybe one of the kids is sick – maybe one of the staff is sick,” he recalled. “Through the fire truck outside, we could see the computer monitor and it said ‘50-year-old male not breathing’, – knowing Michael was 50 years old, we thought, ‘OK, this is probably Michael.'”
Evenstad went on to say that he noticed Dr. Conrad Murray coming to the residence for a couple of months and that Murray was with Michael Jackson in the house for a long time.
“I heard some of the fans say they would see Michael Jackson leave five or six times a day ... go to the dermatologist's office,” Dr. Drew said.
Evenstad said Jackson would “be in the building where Dr. Arnold Klein is” ... almost once a day for up to three hours.
“I am a physician,” Dr. Drew said. “I don’t know of any condition that requires a daily dermatology visit over long periods of time.”
At the end of the interview, Evenstad, a man who observed how the place operated, was asked if he had insights as to how Conrad Murray and Michael ran their day.
“All the days were pretty similar,” Evenstad said. "The guards came and went at the same time. Murray came and went at the same time. Michael, when he was going to rehearsal, would be on a fairly consistent schedule. So my guess is, from an outsider's perspective, whatever was going on in there, was something that happened every day or every night and this one time it went bad and they weren’t prepared for it.”
http://drdrew.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/02/paparazzo-and-dr-drew-unique-insight-into-michael-jacksons-life/
Credits 2good2btrue
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21454.msg373351;topicseen#lastPost
Post by: curls on November 20, 2011, 10:57:19 AM
But it is much better if others help; then I do not get accused (as much) of brain washing everyone, and this whole forum is just a bunch of people who can't think for themselves, and blindly follow TS.
I understand, thanks for that TS!
Post by: wishingstar on November 20, 2011, 11:39:27 AM
Blessings Always
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 11:50:47 AM
Post by: curls on November 20, 2011, 11:58:24 AM
I think it is MUCH easier (and more sane) to realize that people FREQUENTLY forget some things--ESPECIALLY times! When an emergency happens: do you FIRST decide to check the time and write it down, or take very careful mental note of it so that you won't forget? If so, why? Because you are expecting to end up in court, and testify of the times? For most people, no. For professionals, probably (paramedics, police, etc).
In fact, anyone who has much experience in court cases knows that discrepencies in witness testimonies is NORMAL. In fact, a lack of discrepency and perfect harmony is one of the strongest evidences of conspiracy--everyone planned their testimonies so carefully, so that everything would sound real. Take a car accident for example: ten witnesses will usually give somewhere between five and ten different accounts. Some of the details will be the same from everyone (and these details are probably correct); other details will vary. Car had it's blinker on, car did not have the blinker on. Light was red, light was green, etc.
It is for this reason, that I have NEVER used witness discrepencies as any major evidence of the hoax--it is just plain normal. I did show descrepencies in the 911 call timing from BHPD and LAFD; but those were not mere human memories, they were (supposedly) accurate computer-generated and recorded time records, which (if not fabricated) should harmonize within a few seconds at most.
EDIT: This is also why I said, a long time ago, that we should always have AT LEAST TWO OR THREE strong points to support any conclusion--because only one witness is not very reliable. We do not have two or three witnesses stating that the ambulance left around 11:00, we have only Randy. We do not have two or three witnesses stating that the ambulance arrived around 11:45, we have only Linda. We do not have two or three witnesses stating that they saw three ambulances at the same time, etc.
I found this very interesting - we've been saying all along that all the discrepancies, and no two stories seeming to match, were 'odd', and an indication of the hoax. From what you're saying here TS, it's the opposite - they're perfectly normal, although I have to say, why someone wouldn't remember EXACTLY what happened the day MJ 'died' is beyond me! Ah, but he didn't die did he so that explains that!
Should we therefore be looking for the things that match, rather than the things that don't, as more of an indication of the truth? Makes perfect sense really, and I guess that's what you mean by finding two or three things to support an idea. I'm sorry - I may have been somewhat slow in catching the importance of this!
Post by: BeTheChange on November 20, 2011, 12:07:36 PM
Of course, this in itself contradicts Murray's whole timeline and MJ wanting/desperate to get some sleep even at 10:30am. IF he knew he had a meeting scheduled with Randy, none of this makes any sense. According to Murray, Mike talked about having to cancel rehearsals but said nothing about having to cancel any meeting scheduled with Randy.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 12:11:31 PM
EDIT: sorry that was off topic - TS, if you want our help with these levels, as you say, does that mean YOU really don't know what happened either. IOW, we're all groping around in the dark together! I was kind of hoping you, at least, knew what was what.
I already said that I would finish this level single-handedly, if I have to.
But it is much better if others help; then I do not get accused (as much) of brain washing everyone, and this whole forum is just a bunch of people who can't think for themselves, and blindly follow TS.
Also, it takes a LOT of time to debunk everything; just that last post I made took me about an hour (and I didn't even link to any documentation, to save time). You may think that I have all the time in the world, being in jail. LOL. But maybe the Con man is not in jail (and maybe I am not Mr. Murder anyway--cause the context of my statement was pretty obviously not serious).
Dear TS I am sorry we can not do more. I know I didn't try everything to sort things out. I know I didn't organize the information the way it was needed to get some answers. There were too many variables in this equation and in a way I am sorry I didn't take much time to place them in order. Even if I would have done this, I am not sure I could have helped any better.
Anyway, I feel like we could have done more and we didn't. But you do realize the amount of work and documentation needed for this and we all have jobs and other obligations in our lives and not enough time.
I hope whatever answers you will be able to get - you'll be sharing with us.
bearhug
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 20, 2011, 01:26:00 PM
damn it, 7 a not over!! we need to work more at it.
i know that i struggle to uncover 'breakthroughs' and mostly 'agree' with 'ground breaking' posts rather than initiate them... but i would like to add one short comment about TS question about the shadows in pictures. I apologise if it has already been mentioned.
inconsistent shadows could indicate one of two things, perhaps even both. a) artificial and multiple sources of light, ie: such as equipment used on a movie set whether that be indoor or outdoors. the multiple sources of light create opposing shadows inconsistant with natural lighting / one light source. could indiate the photo was staged 'studio' or 'outdoor set' style, which would also allow privacy. and b) different parts of the photo were taken on various days and created numbeous shadows pointing in different directions. these photos may have then be superimposed on top of each other to create the photo released to the media.
in addition THANK YOU TS for returning with even more cans of worms for us! some here appear frustrated that there is yet 'more work' involved to work things out abt 7a... but, just as one member said, (sorry can't remember who) maybe we are missing something and looking at the differences, not similarities, in terms of the witness statements, timelines, etc.... you can be assured that although we appear frustrated, we will all continue working and our many eyes will look at everything again and agian until we get it.
LOVE to all.
bearhug
Post by: MissG on November 20, 2011, 01:43:06 PM
EDIT: sorry that was off topic - TS, if you want our help with these levels, as you say, does that mean YOU really don't know what happened either. IOW, we're all groping around in the dark together! I was kind of hoping you, at least, knew what was what.
I already said that I would finish this level single-handedly, if I have to.
But it is much better if others help; then I do not get accused (as much) of brain washing everyone, and this whole forum is just a bunch of people who can't think for themselves, and blindly follow TS.
Also, it takes a LOT of time to debunk everything; just that last post I made took me about an hour (and I didn't even link to any documentation, to save time). You may think that I have all the time in the world, being in jail. LOL. But maybe the Con man is not in jail (and maybe I am not Mr. Murder anyway--cause the context of my statement was pretty obviously not serious).
Dear TS I am sorry we can not do more. I know I didn't try everything to sort things out. I know I didn't organize the information the way it was needed to get some answers. There were too many variables in this equation and in a way I am sorry I didn't take much time to place them in order. Even if I would have done this, I am not sure I could have helped any better.
Anyway, I feel like we could have done more and we didn't. But you do realize the amount of work and documentation needed for this and we all have jobs and other obligations in our lives and not enough time.
I hope whatever answers you will be able to get - you'll be sharing with us.
bearhug
Gina, the participation in this forum, as I see it, is a TEAM WORK ;) It does not matter if some of our posts are not very dedicated, detailed or brillant (being brillant it´s also very subjective).
Every post is valuable, every one. From simple silly questions a lot of light comes through solving them to certain extent, from a mere opinion more questions come up and the people skilled to find answers in another way put their effort in it and presents a theory...a theory that without "the silly question or opinion may have ever been completed ;)
I am not happy seeing people undervaluated or thinking they don´t do good because of expectations from others.
My humble advice is to contribute in the way one can, enjoy and share...like chatting with pals about this subject. That´s the advice i gave to myself and it works 110% :P
Post by: MissG on November 20, 2011, 01:44:58 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 01:49:32 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 01:51:23 PM
why does this icon :P come as a tongue when clearly it´s a mopping icon?
now that's a mystery to solve :lol:
Post by: MissG on November 20, 2011, 01:55:06 PM
The only written time that we got it´s the one in the screen. From that point may be we could set a time line again with the versions of each witness and puzzle them together.
Time it´s important to determinate at what time Michael got the reaction, help was called and at what time the call to 911 was made and how long took for the 911 call to be received and transfered.
If many calls were done, it makes sense having more than one ambulance. If only one call was done, having 2-3 ambulances sounds non logic.
IDK if this have been debunked or discussed already, in case it has, the time line is appreciated.
Post by: MissG on November 20, 2011, 01:57:00 PM
why does this icon :P come as a tongue when clearly it´s a mopping icon?
now that's a mystery to solve :lol:
I rather focus on that mystery...dammit!
Post by: MissG on November 20, 2011, 01:59:06 PM
Gema I absolutely agree with you but let's be honest, we could've tried harder. But I had no time to document it all.Looks to me that many tried their best and their hardest ;)
Post by: Jacaranda on November 20, 2011, 02:05:02 PM
However, there are still a few points which should be made clearer, and then we can go to 7b.
#1. Nobody responded to this: "I do not know if this had been published before perhaps yes, but anyway, Witness said that there were three ambulances at home that day." {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg372716;topicseen#msg372716 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg372716;topicseen#msg372716)}.
ok, i'll address this one beacause i think i may have an explaination for it.
I think caught up in the drama of it all, the words this girl chose, those words being... 'there were 3 ambulances' are a misrepresentation of what she actually saw. What i think she saw was 3 emergency services vehicles. 1, the red and white car with the lights on roof, that from photos/videos seems to be parked on the corner at the nose end of the fire truck. (sorry i dont know what this car is as i'm not from U.S)
2, the fire truck. And 3, the ambulance. That's the best sense i can make of what that witness said.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 20, 2011, 02:29:31 PM
EDIT: sorry that was off topic - TS, if you want our help with these levels, as you say, does that mean YOU really don't know what happened either. IOW, we're all groping around in the dark together! I was kind of hoping you, at least, knew what was what.
I already said that I would finish this level single-handedly, if I have to.
But it is much better if others help; then I do not get accused (as much) of brain washing everyone, and this whole forum is just a bunch of people who can't think for themselves, and blindly follow TS.
Also, it takes a LOT of time to debunk everything; just that last post I made took me about an hour (and I didn't even link to any documentation, to save time). You may think that I have all the time in the world, being in jail. LOL. But maybe the Con man is not in jail (and maybe I am not Mr. Murder anyway--cause the context of my statement was pretty obviously not serious).
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: MJonmind on November 20, 2011, 02:41:35 PM
-
- Edison believed in hard work and determination.
- Work habits. Edison sometimes worked twenty hours a day.
- He was very good at bringing people together to make an inventing team.
- He was able to reason with many different people.
- He encouraged creativity in his employees.
- He knew a lot about what his competitors were working on.
- He almost never worked on any invention that wasn't already being worked on by several other people.
- One of his biggest strengths - Perseverance. He never gave up. This idea is captured in his famous statement, "Invention is ninety-nine percent perspiration, and one percent inspiration."
- Failure did not stop him. Edison rarely got discouraged when experiments didn't work out. A failed experiment shifted his thinking in different directions.
- He was able to solve problems and learn from failure.
- Attitude. He saw every failure as a success. The story goes that he failed 10,000 times in his storage battery experiments. But Edison said, "Why, I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
Hopefully we've found all the ways that won't work for June 25, 2009! penguin/ bearhug
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 20, 2011, 02:55:43 PM
Anyways... I think TS pretty much explained the witness statements, and indeed, if they all (Randy, Linda and the fans) would have said the same thing (for example: Ambulance arriving at eleven or something), it would be something to consider, but all stories differ, which actually makes all of them unreliable. Fac t is that we have a video and pictures (and statements) that there was an ambulance there that day, that went to UCLA. Since the times don't match, we should go by the recorded time we saw in court of the ambulance arriving at CD and UCLA. The 'no ambulance at all' theory was debunked months ago by the vegetation and also use of common sense.
I still haven't seen the shadow stuff yet, will look at that later if I have time.
Quote
Attitude. He saw every failure as a success. The story goes that he failed 10,000 times in his storage battery experiments. But Edison said, "Why, I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
Brilliant. I'm going to send that to my teacher. I have some homework assignments that I can't seem to figure out.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 04:40:14 PM
hmmmmmmmmm........ /cook/
Post by: Wednesday on November 20, 2011, 04:47:59 PM
Randy Phillips testimony was that he received a call from Frank Dileo around 10:30 -11:00 am and that Michael was having difficulty breathing, an ambulance had been called etc. Randy Phillips stated that he was in "Westwood" and closer to Michael's Carolwood home than Frank Dileo so Phillips drove, with an associate, to Michael's home. Approximately 15 minutes after receiving the call from Frank Dileo, he arrived at Michael's house and witnessed the ambulance and two SUV's leaving. Randy Phillips then states that he followed the ambulance and the two SUV's to UCLA Medical Centre.
Randy Phillips testimony about this is near the end of the video around 1:07:49
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTFXmUHTrjo[/youtube]
This is not just a lapse in memory because Randy Phillips has told this same story repeatedly in interviews.
A problem with what Randy Phillips states arises because this is the exact story that Frank Dileo gave in several interviews, except that it was Dileo who went to Michael's house and followed to the hospital. (Dileo got a call from a fan and Phillips got a call from Dileo.)
Frank Dileo statements starting at about 4:10 in the video.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie0WnX9-cBw[/youtube]
They both state the almost the exact same thing but attribute this to themselves. So which one of them went to the Carolwood house on June 25, 2009; was it Randy Phillips, Frank Dileo or both? They both report the ambulance leaving Michael's house "around 11:00 am"?
In another interview with SkyNews on June 30th, 2009, Randy Phillips, again tells a similar story as in court. But this time he also adds that he "sat there and Frank Dileo EVENTUALLY arrived".
Starting at around 1:48 in the video he states this about Dileo.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lhjmKA7bAM[/youtube]
If both Randy Phillips and Frank Dileo, arrived at the house to both see the ambulance leave, sometime just after 11:00 am then why would Frank Dileo be showing up "eventually", after a lengthy period of time has passed since Randy Phillips arrived at the hospital? They both claimed to have followed the ambulance and the two SUV's to the hospital, they should have arrived at the hospital at about the same time.
In a radio interview, that I have been unable to locate, Randy Phillips also stated that a nurse told him while he waited that Michael was breathing, that he was on life support but that he was brain dead.
Also, neither Randy Phillips or Frank Dileo ever mentioned the vehicle (another SUV?) that Ben Evanstad was in and that was following the ambulance and the two SUV's.
How can Phillips and Dileo have the exact same story except be their own first hand account? They both had a memory lapse in regards to the time being around 11:00 am? Something isn't adding up in this.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 20, 2011, 05:04:13 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 20, 2011, 05:17:54 PM
I do not see the purpose why they would lie about the hour. To say they knew 1 hour and a half before that MJ couldn't breathe and they did nothing about it is just self incrimination.
Maybe they genuinely couldn't recall the right hour.
Post by: MaryK on November 20, 2011, 05:23:36 PM
So why did the 911 call happen later (officially) and what happend during the time from let´s say 11.00 am until the official time of death....
I do have my very own theory about that but I need to do some more research.
Post by: paula-c on November 20, 2011, 05:48:09 PM
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zzz3zz3z.jpg)
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/Nimue/ambwhitecar.JPG)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zzzmnz.jpg)
The following video is very good, it is a comparison between the video of Ben and the Hollywood TV and not coincide in nothing
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqK0IV0QMtI&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
Post by: paula-c on November 20, 2011, 06:06:09 PM
However, there are still a few points which should be made clearer, and then we can go to 7b.
#1. Nobody responded to this: "I do not know if this had been published before perhaps yes, but anyway, Witness said that there were three ambulances at home that day." {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg372716;topicseen#msg372716 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg372716;topicseen#msg372716)}.
ok, i'll address this one beacause i think i may have an explaination for it.
I think caught up in the drama of it all, the words this girl chose, those words being... 'there were 3 ambulances' are a misrepresentation of what she actually saw. What i think she saw was 3 emergency services vehicles. 1, the red and white car with the lights on roof, that from photos/videos seems to be parked on the corner at the nose end of the fire truck. (sorry i dont know what this car is as i'm not from U.S)
2, the fire truck. And 3, the ambulance. That's the best sense i can make of what that witness said.
I do not know if it is something but in the video of the link the bus of tourists from star line is not numbered
Post by: Grace on November 20, 2011, 06:32:17 PM
I immediately thought that the Hollywood TV video and the tourist bus video would not show the same scenery.
I compared shadows in length and intensity, checked the garbage bins and the branches and every single thingie I could get a picture of. I even measured them with a ruler, searched for fix points to compare perspectives and took into account different directions, angles and heights of takes.
I have to add that I know some of Los Angeles, streets, vegetation and looks but only during winter season.
I tried nevertheless to put me into the shoes of summer and think of what it would look like if I were there sur-lieu in person (and not as an outside movie spectator).
I tried in addition to put a movie director's hat on - which is truly the most difficult task in this.
That's where I'm coming from.
I changed my mind about the videos and am convinced since a little while that
1) the different videos were taken the same day at exactly the location outside the mansion
2) the differences are due to different angle and height of the camera, being either under the trees or in the middle of the street in plain sunlight
3) the videos were taken around noon and the storybook was surrounding noon exactly for that purpose: to make pictures look different according to a different "standpoint", make details "invisible" due to strong light contrasts and still provide the best light supply feasible without any artificial light or technical devices.
A photographer will think twice to take pictures at noon if he wanted to capture all details because light will demand a lot of technical professionalism to balance its strength out.
Usually if one wants to get all details without hard work / rework, one will choose the morning or the afternoon / evening. But then, much light improvement will be required - sheds, spots, filters...
Light at noon has an enormous strength, is hard, very white and produces dark shadows on faces underneath eyes and nose that are not welcome (usually). Light in the morning and the afternoon / evening is much softer, accomodates the human eye as to angular perception, provides clear contours and "makes" objects threedimensional. Light at noon will provide "additional" backup time in case this should be required because shadows don't change that fast - they get additional length the more the later the day. So that provides a kind of "security window" just in case and it helps make a scenery look more "alike" in case several days were planned as shooting time.
June 25, 2009 provided calm weather, overcast to cloudy, calm wind in the morning and clear as of noon with a variable wind (into the evening). June 23 had comparable conditions, June 24 was partly cloudy in the afternoon.
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCQT/2009/6/25/DailyHistory.html? (http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCQT/2009/6/25/DailyHistory.html?)
What does this have to do with the videos, the shadows and the outcome?
The decision to take the videos at noon had a strong impact on the material.
Emotionally speaking: the take was brutal, white, cold, facts without mercy, without any details, blurry, a slap in the face.
On the contrary, the transport to the coroner was filmed in late afternoon, having the sun in the back, no issue, long shadows. Emotionally: relax, everything done without any further effort required for the time being.
Btw the long "late in the day" shadows in these videos did give away the direction of the helicopter flight which was rerouted to Beverly Hills, West Hollywood and Hollywood before getting over Downtown L.A. towards the Coroner's offices. It was even mentioned by the French commentators that the chopper did not take a direct flight route. (I pointed that out earlier: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=17767.msg303395#msg303395 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=17767.msg303395#msg303395))
After poring over those images and shadows for centenaries (appears as if), I came to the conclusion that it is all natural light, filmed sur-lieu outside of Carolwood, in that street.
I took with me that this is a lecture as to standpoint, angle, perspective, lenses, automatic vs. manual aperture, and last but not least - most important - timing.
I took this in addition as a lecture of life and about life and about jumping to conclusions and instantly judging while dwelling in different shoes. Pictures at an exhibition. We are being exposed and put on stage.
At least we tried. Not always in a straight order - the human mind wanders and is not straight - not always regarding time flying by. But at least we tried to figure all this out.
At times I feel miserable because we don't seem to get where we belong and I am personally really worn out. This citation of Edison is great, brilliant. At least we tried and we kicked the bucket filled with garbage many times already. So that's my two cents today on shadows.
Love you all guys. It's a great journey.
Quote
There Is Nothing Under The Sun Like The High Adventure Of "High Noon"!http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044706/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044706/)
afraid/ :mrgreen:
Post by: valerie68 on November 20, 2011, 06:39:29 PM
To me everything is still pointing to the film theory. We already have seen enough contradictions and stuff that just doesnt add up in this trial and this whole case what should provide enough evidence that this trial wasnt real and that MJ just has to be still alive. So I dont really care in one more or less detail beeing wrong. Same with the ambulance van. It doesnt matter how many vans were alleged to be seen. The people who are on the hoax would have lied anyway and for the fans outside (if there were any) they could have hired an ambulance van to make it look real (like they do it in films). But I think the rest was filmed an prepared to a previous time and when TMZ (the main source) aired it and spread the news, they just give us the impression that it was really happening then (that day) Of course a lot of people were outside UCLA (and even tried to get in) on 25. June bc they heard the news on the radio and the UCLA stuff was probably really busy to "control the chaos" but officially they didnt state anything, Jermaine did. And TMZ remained the main source in this whole case. The biggest clues to make me think of a film is 1. the huge pic of Michael behind a camera on his memorial 2. the fact that Michaell admitted he wants to do films and take it to another level (at Geraldo interview) and
3. LaToyas statement that this is just an illusion. I dont believe in a murder conspiracy, bc if Mj would have been dead ( for whatever reason) the family would have acted different. Remember Joes interview a few days after Michaels "passing" (The- Im fine, the familly is doing great-comment) or Janets attending at the BET Awards or the childrens attending at the Memorial, or Randys and Marlons happy grinning to the fans while sitting in a car and taking a few things out of Michaels house a fews days after his "death". I dont think those things would have happened then.
(Sorry for my bad engish)
Greetings to everybody
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 20, 2011, 07:26:02 PM
If you accept it's green screened then you accept that ALL the stalker fans are actors. ALL of them. Because if ANY of them are real, and they really did have a habit of camping out in front of MJs house, then they would notice that NO ambulance came OR left Carolwood on 6/25/09 and that's a massive risk.
This is the sound reasoning that we need to hear more of, not the fanciful imaginary ideas (although they may be more fun).
Just to clear up, I don't think the green screen was accepted as a possibility or a theory, it was just the idea of illusion and what was possible....it is absolutely ridiculous that the hoax would use a green screen instead of the real thing, it's much more safer to play out the scene of a dead MJ then have green screens, with the stalker fans been actors etc.
But theories such as MJ actually being in the ambo, coroner van or even the helicopter aren't necessarily imaginary ideas, it's just more risky and allows for more people to be in it.
Post by: Adi on November 20, 2011, 07:49:14 PM
However, I think some of the footage we have seen, such as MJ jumping out of the Coroners van might have been. The reason I think some of what we have seen as part of the "illusion" was "green screened" is because I keep going back to Judge Pastor reading out "June 9th" on the jury forms which was the completion of Michael's Dome Project.
Then again this could mean absolutely nothing.
Post by: Andrea on November 20, 2011, 07:55:12 PM
If you accept it's green screened then you accept that ALL the stalker fans are actors. ALL of them. Because if ANY of them are real, and they really did have a habit of camping out in front of MJs house, then they would notice that NO ambulance came OR left Carolwood on 6/25/09 and that's a massive risk.
This is the sound reasoning that we need to hear more of, not the fanciful imaginary ideas (although they may be more fun).
Just to clear up, I don't think the green screen was accepted as a possibility or a theory, it was just the idea of illusion and what was possible....it is absolutely ridiculous that the hoax would use a green screen instead of the real thing, it's much more safer to play out the scene of a dead MJ then have green screens, with the stalker fans been actors etc.
But theories such as MJ actually being in the ambo, coroner van or even the helicopter aren't necessarily imaginary ideas, it's just more risky and allows for more people to be in it.
At various times in these past 2+ years, I think I've supported almost every theory out there, sometimes for only a very short period. :lol: I'm just being honest here and I definitely wondered if the "fanciful imaginary ideas" was mostly aimed at the MJ-was-there-the-whole-time idea. But really, there's just so many theories out there. And apart from Jermaine's airport "slip-up" and a bit of funny business at LAX, I can't say I've ever heard anything that definitively de-bunks Michael actively participating on June 25th. It's risky but it's do-able.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 20, 2011, 08:29:31 PM
#2- "Or perhaps Randy is "in on it", and that solves everything. I guess we would also have Linda in on it too, maybe even the three ambulance witnesses in on it, along with the entire population of China, and 75% of the rest of the world." LMAO at this very sarcastic comment, but are you TS, implying Randy is NOT in on it? If so, many of his statements people take as clues are not at all and his time discrepancy could very well be due to forgetfulness. I'm still not sure why he mentioned he had a meeting with Michael that morning if he didn't? A lie or forgetting again?
He, much like the witness however, could have thought that the firetruck was yet another ambulance. I have no idea who called Frank, possibly someone in the house? Regardless, we can safely assume there was 1 ambulance that day (and 1 firetruck) and they most likely arrived around the same time, ignoring their given arrival/exit times. They both did recall the exact same scenario.
#3- The shadows can be easily debunked, like in the post by Grace and I believe Bec mentioned it aswell; that the difference in shadows is an illusion due to angles etc.
#4- I have never viewed that video mentioned, nor have I even heard of it, but do we even need to see it? We have a general consensus that there was ONE ambulance there that day and there is NO evidence that proves otherwise.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 20, 2011, 08:41:38 PM
If you accept it's green screened then you accept that ALL the stalker fans are actors. ALL of them. Because if ANY of them are real, and they really did have a habit of camping out in front of MJs house, then they would notice that NO ambulance came OR left Carolwood on 6/25/09 and that's a massive risk.
This is the sound reasoning that we need to hear more of, not the fanciful imaginary ideas (although they may be more fun).
Just to clear up, I don't think the green screen was accepted as a possibility or a theory, it was just the idea of illusion and what was possible....it is absolutely ridiculous that the hoax would use a green screen instead of the real thing, it's much more safer to play out the scene of a dead MJ then have green screens, with the stalker fans been actors etc.
But theories such as MJ actually being in the ambo, coroner van or even the helicopter aren't necessarily imaginary ideas, it's just more risky and allows for more people to be in it.
At various times in these past 2+ years, I think I've supported almost every theory out there, sometimes for only a very short period. :lol: I'm just being honest here and I definitely wondered if the "fanciful imaginary ideas" was mostly aimed at the MJ-was-there-the-whole-time idea. But really, there's just so many theories out there. And apart from Jermaine's airport "slip-up" and a bit of funny business at LAX, I can't say I've ever heard anything that definitively de-bunks Michael actively participating on June 25th. It's risky but it's do-able.
Could of been about the " MJ-was-there-the-whole-time idea"...but TS mentioned that there were theories about the green screen idea...
Quote from: TS_comments
Please someone with very vivid imagination, please explain to me WHY--WHY, OH WHY ON EARTH would the be FIVE ambulances at Carolwood on June 25, 2009????? And to top this off, the green screen theory (and similar theories) support the idea of ZERO ambulances at Carolwood in 6-25-09!
...I don't know if anyone really brought that theory or as one of the main ones, but anyway.
But I do agree Andrea, MJ being there the whole time, or even some of the time is do-able.
You may think that I have all the time in the world, being in jail. LOL. But maybe the Con man is not in jail (and maybe I am not Mr. Murder anyway--cause the context of my statement was pretty obviously not serious).
I guess he's not in jail, but they are looking to put him back in jail;
Quote
Conrad Murray is now suspected be in a hit and run accident and is now wanted by the Los Angeles Police Department.
Read more http://fallenscoop.com/77713/paris-hiltons-little-brother-involved-in-a-car-accident
So CM must be outta jail....lol...no...actually they just accidentally called Conrad Hilton, Conrad Murray...
Post by: RK on November 20, 2011, 09:05:41 PM
There is one thing [among many others] that bothers me. We have been fed the lines that on the 24th June, MJ said to Randy Philips. 'Thanks for getting me this far....I can take it from here".
Then we are told from Philips own testimony that he had a meeting with Michael the very next morning. That sounds rather contradictory, but one could argue that it is just my hoax glasses colouring my interpretation of those words. The night before, they are parting ways and saying goodbyes and then have a meeting scheduled for the next morning. But if we are to leave all the speculation behind [or keep it tucked away until we have 2 or 3 such indicators that it's reliable] then I concede that there was one ambulance at Carolwood as well as the firetruck, and that the fans who were outside, along with Linda and the tour bus customers provide verification by witnessing this took place. In keeping with the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible with the exception of Ben's pre- prepared ambo photo and the 911 call pre recorded. But I still secretly expect to be blown away at how this illusion was pulled off because it's Michael Jackson. What? You're not really Conrad Murray? suspicious// ::P
Post by: BeTheChange on November 20, 2011, 09:18:19 PM
I do support the 'one ambulance at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th' theory because I can see the logic of doing it that way. But I gotta say, from a 'critical' point of view (i.e. if we explained all this to a non-believer), they could/would question how we can believe anything we have either seen or heard from the same people we 'claim' have lied in the past in one way or another (for whatever reason). We believe that Ben 'lied' about the ambu pic, but he's telling/showing the truth in the ambu vid....we can't prove that the 911 call was real, but we're gonna use the paramedic's arrival time in the theory, etc. TS, of course, may have info that we don't have that would prove the 'one ambulance' theory concretely...but based on what we have to go with, it's difficult to determine when the lies stop and the truth begins with each 'character'.
I'm not trying to debunk the theory cause God knows I wanna close this chapter...if anything, I'm trying to strengthen the 'one ambulance' theory. I guess at some point you have to trust in something, despite previous 'lies'.
I've been looking for the vid that TS mentioned in point #4 but haven't found anything that shows what he's talking about.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 20, 2011, 09:25:37 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU&list=PLFB534EB490EB4CED&index=1&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU&list=PLFB534EB490EB4CED&index=1&feature=plpp_video[/youtube]
I have always said there were 2 ambulances, I saw one leave and then there was one in the court yard. Some of you has said that it is the way they taped it.. I never thought it was the way they taped it.. I stand for what I have said from the start.
Post by: Wednesday on November 20, 2011, 09:55:40 PM
I have split the video in the exact same place as this "splice" appears in the original video that is on youtube and have put the two clips in the proper sequence. This hasn't been uploaded to youtube because it could be blocked, removed and/or result in a copyright infringement notification but it can be viewed on photobucket.
I don't know how to embed the video from photobucket onto the forum but it is just as easy to click the link.
http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/?action=view¤t=MJAmbulanceFootage-ClipsinCorrectOrder.mp4
Post by: scorpionchik on November 20, 2011, 10:13:46 PM
There is only one ambulance. The Hollywood TV video uses two clips, placed in the wrong order. The ambulance's arrival is in the middle of the Hollywood TV video and the departure is at the beginning. There is a splice/lapse, whatever you want to call it, where the clips were put together.
I have split the video in the exact same place as this "splice" appears in the original video that is on youtube and have put the two clips in the proper sequence. This hasn't been uploaded to youtube because it would most likely be blocked, removed and/or result in a copyright infringement notification but it can be viewed on photobucket.
I don't know how to embed the video from photobucket onto the forum but it is just as easy to click the link.
http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/?action=view¤t=MJAmbulanceFootage-ClipsinCorrectOrder.mp4
I just watched the video and suddenly for the first time noticed that tour bus number is 17, opposit to ambulance 71, and the name is STAR Line. I would think those were specially prepared for hoax if I did not see both at Carolwood myself; the amb. 71 and the tour shuttle. And, I do think there was 1 amb. and 1 rescue truck from station 71. The Carolwood drive is croudy neighborhood as I posted long time ago after my trip over there, I don't think another day of staged ambulance recording would be possible without notice.
Post by: Wednesday on November 20, 2011, 10:26:38 PM
There is only one ambulance. The Hollywood TV video uses two clips, placed in the wrong order. The ambulance's arrival is in the middle of the Hollywood TV video and the departure is at the beginning. There is a splice/lapse, whatever you want to call it, where the clips were put together.
I have split the video in the exact same place as this "splice" appears in the original video that is on youtube and have put the two clips in the proper sequence. This hasn't been uploaded to youtube because it would most likely be blocked, removed and/or result in a copyright infringement notification but it can be viewed on photobucket.
I don't know how to embed the video from photobucket onto the forum but it is just as easy to click the link.
http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/?action=view¤t=MJAmbulanceFootage-ClipsinCorrectOrder.mp4
I just watched the video and suddenly for the first time noticed that tour bus number is 17, opposit to ambulance 71, and the name is STAR Line. I would think those were specially prepared for hoax if I did not see both at Carolwood myself; the amb. 71 and the tour shuttle. And, I do think there was 1 amb. and 1 rescue truck from station 71. The Carolwood drive is croudy neighborhood as I posted long time ago after my trip over there, I don't think another day of staged ambulance recording would be possible without notice.
I also noticed the tour bus number as 17 and the split in the video may be that the Hollywood TV camera person turned off the video camera between the ambulance's arrival and departure. This would mean that Ben Evanstad got his video of MJ being loaded into the ambulance, through the fence, between the time the ambulance's arrival/departure video clips were taken by Hollywood TV.
The Hollywood TV video is also not showing exactly when the ambulance or firetruck arrived as the firetruck is parked, cones are starting to be placed as the tour bus arrives on scene, and the ambulance is already entering the gates, so Hollywood TV was later to arrive on the scene. The tour bus has been moved or left (?) by the time the ambulance is leaving. Those on the tour really didn't have a view of anything to film when they arrived except the gates closing, the firetruck parked at the curb, a fireman places cones but not much else. I don't know if the tour bus left or was moved to a location further away but either way they probably didn't have much to film from their viewpoint.
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 10:30:47 PM
TS...you seem very ruffled or annoyed. I could just be imagining it......hopefully so.
...
Sorry if I seemed ruffled. I am not angry at anyone, but it is a little frustrating when the grand solution to every problem is merely "well, they are in on it".
Anyway, I do appreciate everyone here, and all the investigation work that is being done--if not, I would not be spending time here myself.
Love to you, too, wishingstar!
;D
Post by: bec on November 20, 2011, 10:33:56 PM
Also @in general: To know there was one ambulance at Carrolwood that went to UCLA on 6/25/09 you don't need witness statements or records to prove it, you only need logic and common sense. You're dealing with the most famous icon alive, who "dies" in L.A., and video of events that occurred in a very public place (Carrolwood Drive) were splashed ad naseum all over the news for days/weeks/months. IF any of this hadn't occurred at the time they said that it did... someone, somewhere out there would be able to attest to that fact, and it would be the hottest interview anywhere. Let's say Susy Creamcheese walks her dog down Carrolwood every day at 1pm. Let's say she knows this because she leaves after the Young n The Restless ends at 12:30, and her route never changes and she always hits point xyz at 1:05 and that takes her directly past Carrolwood, so she would have seen an ambulance and SUV entourage screaming by... and as it was... there was no ambulance entourage and she is sure of it... problemo. What you going to do? Threaten to break Susie Creamcheese's kneecaps if she squeals?
That's how you know there was an ambulance at Carrolwood on 6/25/09 between 12:25 and 1pm-ish that went to UCLA. Because there absolutely had to be.
@Serenity's Dream, you made a giant scene all over the internet trashing TS and TIAI for weeks over bullshit and nonsense. Why the hell are you posting on this thread.
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 10:50:13 PM
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=21319.0;attach=2242;image)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?)
The bottom picture does not look anything like Carolwood or UCLA.
We are only discussing whether there were extra ambulances / fire trucks at Carolwood and UCLA on 6-25-09.
So even IF this is a different truck (or different paint job), shouldn't FS71 be allowed to use more than one fire truck, at different times and/or locations?
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 11:14:16 PM
TS,darling I had already told about the "FAKE" fans/reporters ,lol,but it seems that is you that didn't noticed.The FAKE fans are actors and to name 2 of them,here they are:
1.BJ Hickman
(http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Michael+Jackson+Case+Continues+MGuCIzpJSWVl.jpg)
Recently he was at Murray trial also ;D :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5xLYeaPma0&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL0B8FC42CFCC446F0
[/youtube]
2. Mo'Nique from movie PRECIOUS geek/ ,she played as the SELF role,lol lolol/
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Mo%27Nique_SAG_Awards.jpg/220px-)
As about THE AMBULANCEs ,there were 2 and it's CLEAR like the DAY LIGHT,lol :lol: !!!!
Thank you and LOVE you very much!!!
Dear Applehead,
First, you have given no explanation for WHY there would need to be more than one ambulance, nor WHY Michael would NEED to hire stalker fans to be in on the hoax. There are so many "Justice for MJ" fans, why would he need to hire a few extra??
Just because someone is an actor, does not mean that they are in on the hoax--otherwise, almost all of Hollywood (plus all other actors around the world) are in on the hoax.
Furthermore, even IF some stalker fans were in on the hoax (for some strange reason), yet you would also need MANY other people in on the hoax, in order for the multiple ambulance theory to work. And again, WHY??
Finally, if it is "clear like daylight" that there were 2 ambulances (unless you mean the fire truck and ambulance), then could you please share that evidence with others here--and not keep it to yourself?
Thanks. ::P
Post by: wishingstar on November 20, 2011, 11:17:32 PM
TS...you seem very ruffled or annoyed. I could just be imagining it......hopefully so.
...
Sorry if I seemed ruffled. I am not angry at anyone, but it is a little frustrating when the grand solution to every problem is merely "well, they are in on it".
Anyway, I do appreciate everyone here, and all the investigation work that is being done--if not, I would not be spending time here myself.
Love to you, too, wishingstar!
;D
Awwww...I just got home from a 6+hour drive home and saw your note...thank you TS. I am glad you're not, "ruffled" :lol:.....I am sure it must be frustrating beyond words at times. Very true, at times we (myself included) seem to just say everyone and their grandma must be, "in on it". I do think we will be amazed at just who is, and who isn't in on it. Given the circumstances of this adventure, it's unlike anything we have ever encountered, we have all done a remarkable job. I am constantly amazed by people's perceptions, their abilities to find facts and their consistent love for a guy that most of the world thinks is dead. Never in a million years would I have believed I'd be doing this.....never. Yet, here I am well over my 1000th post........that's what I find unbelievable.
TS.....whoever you are, you're here for the long haul. I appreciate your hard work........thanks for the love.
Blessings Always
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2011, 11:32:36 PM
There are differences in the videos, for example by cars, in the video of Ben at a given time you can see a white car after it is replaced by one black, if the idea was to make room for an ambulance why replaced a car for the other?
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zzz3zz3z.jpg)
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/Nimue/ambwhitecar.JPG)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zzzmnz.jpg)
The following video is very good, it is a comparison between the video of Ben and the Hollywood TV and not coincide in nothing
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqK0IV0QMtI&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
All of the things in these pictures and videos are just angle differences, and time differences (seconds or minutes of difference, but not different days).
The shot with the white car is taken from farther right, so the black SUV's are probably there but blocked by the angle of the shot and the gate. Later, the white car is not in the shot because it was probably driven away by one of the employees leaving, as Ben mentioned.
The video with still shots inset are not lined up in time, and also are taken from different angles. That is why the gate looks more open in one shot, versus the other.
And now, "let's do it one more time": WHY, OH WHY, would there NEED to be more than one time that the ambulance was at Carolwood, with everyone and everything exactly the same (or at least 99.99% the same, and maybe one tiny difference in an elusive shadow or something somewhere)?
Post by: wishingstar on November 20, 2011, 11:58:45 PM
"let's do it one more time" (as Michael said in TII).......simply put: for rehearsal. It's all I got right now....I need a sleepy smilie.
Blessings.......
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2011, 12:01:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI)
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 21, 2011, 12:02:19 AM
There are differences in the videos, for example by cars, in the video of Ben at a given time you can see a white car after it is replaced by one black, if the idea was to make room for an ambulance why replaced a car for the other?
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zzz3zz3z.jpg)
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/Nimue/ambwhitecar.JPG)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/MaryJo/zzzmnz.jpg)
The following video is very good, it is a comparison between the video of Ben and the Hollywood TV and not coincide in nothing
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqK0IV0QMtI&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
All of the things in these pictures and videos are just angle differences, and time differences (seconds or minutes of difference, but not different days).
The shot with the white car is taken from farther right, so the black SUV's are probably there but blocked by the angle of the shot and the gate. Later, the white car is not in the shot because it was probably driven away by one of the employees leaving, as Ben mentioned.
The video with still shots inset are not lined up in time, and also are taken from different angles. That is why the gate looks more open in one shot, versus the other.
And now, "let's do it one more time": WHY, OH WHY, would there NEED to be more than one time that the ambulance was at Carolwood, with everyone and everything exactly the same (or at least 99.99% the same, and maybe one tiny difference in an elusive shadow or something somewhere)?
There was only one ambulance at one time....the rest is HIStory.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 21, 2011, 12:09:49 AM
TS, I love your logical, reasonable thinking and answers when reponding to people. Logicality is so, unfortunately rare :-|.
Thanks for the vids too.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 21, 2011, 12:25:03 AM
@in general: Someone did post about the green screening theory and it was seconded by someone else... few pages back when it was beginning to spiral into the obscure for the 7247th time.
Yes it was mentioned a few pages back, with someone posting a video about green screening...and I only agreed with this bit.;
Quote
It looks like the sky's the limit these days when it comes to creating illusions.
...and that WASN'T in relation to June 25th or the Ben video, it was to the hoax in general...so let me clarify, I didn't agree with the GS theory...if this theory is what happened on June 25th, MJ might as well not have faked his death at all.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 21, 2011, 01:50:00 AM
It is simply the angles and lighting that are different, thus, other details that couldn't be seen before at the previous angle(s) make them appear to have happened on different occasions. In the Hollywoodtv vid, the tour bus can in fact be seen around 1:36-37 in the second video.
Edit: This post is in response to the videos posted by TS.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 21, 2011, 03:20:54 AM
Quote
I changed my mind about the videos and am convinced since a little while that
1) the different videos were taken the same day at exactly the location outside the mansion
2) the differences are due to different angle and height of the camera, being either under the trees or in the middle of the street in plain sunlight
Grace I agree with you ;D.
Oh it was funny when you said you measured them with the ruler :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Adi on November 21, 2011, 03:33:26 AM
@in general: Someone did post about the green screening theory and it was seconded by someone else... few pages back when it was beginning to spiral into the obscure for the 7247th time.
"@in general" the green screen theory arose after I questioned why it was that the date of the end of filming the Dome Project (9 June) was deliberately brought to our attention on Verdict day by the Jury and/or Judge Pastor.
That's all......end of story.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 21, 2011, 03:35:07 AM
Quote
All of the things in these pictures and videos are just angle differences, and time differences (seconds or minutes of difference, but not different days).
Clear as daylight. I agree.
TS said:
Quote
And now, "let's do it one more time": WHY, OH WHY, would there NEED to be more than one time that the ambulance was at Carolwood, with everyone and everything exactly the same (or at least 99.99% the same, and maybe one tiny difference in an elusive shadow or something somewhere)?
I hate to say it again but you are right about this one too.
And I hate to say it this was my option from page 1, yet here we are, how many pages later crash/?!
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 21, 2011, 03:44:42 AM
Why can't Serenity's Dream/Wednesday post here? She isn't "trashing" anyone, but is instead posting useful info; perhaps she had a change of heart.
She is not trashing anyone NOW, you should have seen her a few months ago. I don't like it when people trash me or anyone else on here and then come back under a different username without at least saying sorry, hoping I won't otice. That is sneaky. So SD, you know where the PM button is, I suggest you use it.
Post by: MaryK on November 21, 2011, 03:46:13 AM
I have done so much reading, looked at so many videos...I am missing out on one fact and here is my question:
What is the official indication of time for the arrival of the ambulance at UCLA?
Would anyone be so kind as to give me an answer on that one....please
Thank you
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 21, 2011, 04:11:11 AM
Here are the YouTube videos that I was referring to (#4).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI)
Okay, just watched the first one and debunked it. The videomaker claims that the one filming the first part of the Hollywood TV video runs away before he can film the right side of the ambulance, but he or she is wrong. There are two guys in black shirts in the video at a certain point and the one filming disappears behind the tourbus (probably filming the side of the ambulance), while the other guy with black shirt runs back. They switch positions around 0:17 in the TMZ/Starline video.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU[/youtube]
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 21, 2011, 04:12:40 AM
Post by: MJonmind on November 21, 2011, 04:35:47 AM
Well I'm so glad the dust has settled and we can see a little more clearly THE ambulance journey on June 25, 09, and we are hopefully all on the same page, to head off to 7b. moonwalk_/ You have to admit TS, that with your purposeful timing, we had a lot of time to be throwing around 1000 theories with little intervention on your part. So you can hardly blame us for straying too far, and I don't blame you for getting frustrated that we weren't getting it. I suspect that you beforehand knew the rate we would "get" things, like a good strategist. Like the game of charades we just weren't interpreting clues fast enough. I've relied a lot on my colleages who have sharp memories, and eagle eyes. I feel proud that we work as a team.
BeTheChange
Quote
TS
I do support the 'one ambulance at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th' theory because I can see the logic of doing it that way. But I gotta say, from a 'critical' point of view (i.e. if we explained all this to a non-believer), they could/would question how we can believe anything we have either seen or heard from the same people we 'claim' have lied in the past in one way or another (for whatever reason). We believe that Ben 'lied' about the ambu pic, but he's telling/showing the truth in the ambu vid....we can't prove that the 911 call was real, but we're gonna use the paramedic's arrival time in the theory, etc. TS, of course, may have info that we don't have that would prove the 'one ambulance' theory concretely...but based on what we have to go with, it's difficult to determine when the lies stop and the truth begins with each 'character'.
I'm not trying to debunk the theory cause God knows I wanna close this chapter...if anything, I'm trying to strengthen the 'one ambulance' theory. I guess at some point you have to trust in something, despite previous 'lies'.
Quote
But it is much better if others help; then I do not get accused (as much) of brain washing everyone, and this whole forum is just a bunch of people who can't think for themselves, and blindly follow TS.
We've enjoyed thinking for ourselves in the midst of so much opposition from outside. Did you foresee the storms of doubts, confusion, emotion, euphoria, imagination, finding craploads of all kinds of internet info in the process, and/or sadness that have been swirling around in our heads on this trail? My 'helpful' husband keeps telling me you are just some guy deceiving us all. Believe me that our antennas are constantly alert for danger, and our eyes are wide open as we head to the MJ "Frontier".
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 21, 2011, 04:44:07 AM
LOL, I posted that at 11:11:11 (Dutch time) :shock:
it's just a coincidence...or you are TS suspicious// suspicious// suspicious// :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Just kidding :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 21, 2011, 04:51:45 AM
Here are the YouTube videos that I was referring to (#4).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI)
Video 2:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VR-HSc2aM4[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNbVRLsOHng[/youtube]
As for the reflectors, the video maker is comparing a clear and higher resolution picture (UCLA) to a rushed, low quality screen from a video. The red reflector is there, but blends into the red of the ambulance, simply because of pixelation. The round reflector seems oval simply because it's a picture where the ambulance is in motion, it moves to the right. I am sure that if you would try to put that ambulance on the same ambulance in a picture where it is not in motion, that this ambulance will appear longer as well.
The tire at UCLA is shot at a 45 degree angle, which is why the seem to differ. This is hard to explain, but here is a picture that shows oval parts in the middle, but we all know that when you look at it right in front, that they will be round. I hope someone gets what I am saying here:
(http://www.gvkracing.nl/img/img62.jpg)
The shadow issue is again because of a low quality image (still from Ben's picture in the video) and that picture is way lighter than any of the other images. It's shot from a distance and at a lower point.
As for the picture of the screen in the firetruck: they probably made it with the windows closed. Time enough to get a good shot, since the firetruck is not moving.
I will look at the last one later on.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2011, 05:16:35 AM
Video 2:
As for the reflectors, the video maker is comparing a clear and higher resolution picture (UCLA) to a rushed, low quality screen from a video. The red reflector is there, but blends into the red of the ambulance, simply because of pixelation.
you are right. i also agree that it blends due to pixelation, however they are seperate. it is there, you are right. reflector is just less defined in this footage.
Quote
The tire at UCLA is shot at a 45 degree angle, which is why the seem to differ. This is hard to explain, but here is a picture that shows oval parts in the middle, but we all know that when you look at it right in front, that they will be round. I hope someone gets what I am saying here:
(http://www.gvkracing.nl/img/img62.jpg)
again, you are right. and totally get what you are saying here. a good way to think of this is to get a plastic or cardboard tube (say aluminium foil cardboard tubing) and slice it at a 45 degree angle. front on, look into the tube. the opening will appear circular in shape. however look at the tube from the left side and the opening now appears to be oval in shape. two shapes depending on angle viewed at, but really the source hasnt changed. its the same cardboard tube.
you are right about the wheels. it depends what angle you look at the wheels from, as well as what angle the wheels are at when the vehicle is parked, i:e steering turned slightly, etc.
one ambulance with different appearances.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 21, 2011, 05:21:34 AM
And the tire I mentioned in my previous post, isn't different, it's just caused by the angle. Everything in those vids the poster is trying to say proves multiple ambulances etc., really are only due to angle and lighting only. The screenshot of the data info in the firetruck was obviously done beforehand aswell in my opinion.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 21, 2011, 08:16:21 AM
I feel the need to explain why I posted the 'green-screen' video, since it is being 'referred' to in a not-so-positive light. From the beginning of this thread, I have supported the 'one ambulance' theory and have written several (at times, lengthy) posts as to why I support it. The 'theory' was so clear in my mind, in fact, that I wrote (on the same day the thread was started) that we could 'wrap this up by the end of the weekend'.
Given the many 'logical' explanations from members as to why this theory makes sense...I was sure that we'd quickly be moving on to 7b. When that didn't happen (i.e. TS didn't 'chime' in)...I wrote another post stating that the reason could be that TS hasn't had time to read the thread OR the date for 7b is predetermined OR we're missing something and until we find it, we're not gonna proceed. We had absolutely NO control over the first two options/reasons...but we did have control over the third.
Because the June 9 date and the mysterious Dome Project are interesting for several reasons and because some members had brought up the use of 'green-screening' I began looking into it because my knowledge about it is very limited. In order for me to support or eliminate any theory, I need to 'study' it before making a decision about it...it's just the way my mind works. I hadn't even entertained the idea and this is evident since the first time I even 'hinted' at the possibility was on page 25 of this thread.
I came across the 'green-screen' vid as I was researching the topic and decided to share because it IS fascinating and thought others would enjoy it as well. Could the entire ambulance 'events' at Carolwood and UCLA have been green-screened? Technically, I'm sure they could have been...logically, it doesn't make as much sense as simply having a real ambulance there.
It's unfortunate that, at times, certain theories and/or members are made to look stupid and/or ridiculous...especially considering the myraid of theories that have been around from the beginning...some of which, as 'ridiculous' as they were labelled, turned out to be great contenders. I am open to any theory, until I can make a decision on it either way....but that decision will never be because TS supports or doesn't support it, or that it's the general consensus, or because I 'like' it. It will only and always be because I have remained open enough to research it (as ridiculous as it may seem) and because I think/thought for myself in reaching any conclusions.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 21, 2011, 10:51:22 AM
Here are the YouTube videos that I was referring to (#4).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI)
Okay, just watched the first one and debunked it. The videomaker claims that the one filming the first part of the Hollywood TV video runs away before he can film the right side of the ambulance, but he or she is wrong. There are two guys in black shirts in the video at a certain point and the one filming disappears behind the tourbus (probably filming the side of the ambulance), while the other guy with black shirt runs back. They switch positions around 0:17 in the TMZ/Starline video.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU[/youtube]
Agreed, he/she is wrong. I concur with what Souza wrote. We debunked this in 2009. There are 2 black shirted camera guys. They cross behind the ambulance at the furthest back up point and switch places as it begins to pull away. It's an optical illusion. One black short runs to the side to "get the shot", the other stands a moment and then runs towards the tour bus's perspective.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 21, 2011, 11:06:53 AM
As for the vids TS posted...I know that a lot of what is said in the vids was debunked a long time ago. I had mentioned one thing yesterday, though, that they also mention in the vid but I can't make sense of it. Perhaps it, too, was debunked a long time ago and I just never saw the explanation for it. Where is the Starline tour bus situated when the cam guy runs back to his car (in Ben's vid)? Based on the 'fan' vid, the bus should be aligned with the firetruck but I don't see it in Ben's.
If anyone can clear that up for me, I'd greatly appreciate it. It's sorta the final 'lingering' doubt I have as to everything having been filmed in real time on June 25th. An explanation would help remove that doubt.
Thanks.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 21, 2011, 11:28:20 AM
You know what, you took the time to discover the possibbillitys, and i'm happy you do that, even it turns out to be not a possibillity at the end.( thats ivestigating) and yes i do appreciate that you and many others do these things .For what its worth.....These posts from you and many others are really appreciated by me, thank you bearhug
Post by: bec on November 21, 2011, 11:39:30 AM
When you watch the ambulance footage in it's entirety, once the ambulance pulls away you will see that a pickup truck is the first vehicle that follows it, not the tour bus.
In the brief view we get down the street from the running cameraman and wildly swinging camera, we do see a pickup truck parked in the middle of the street.
This can be explained in one of two ways.
Either the perspective is such that the tour bus was always pulled over to the side, leaving a clear roadway, though it appeared from the camera angle that it was just beside the firetruck... or the tour bus pulled over specifically to allow the pickup (and any other vehicles that might come along in the time the bus was waiting) to pass.
Either makes sense because... the tour bus intended to allow it's tourist passengers to watch the proceedings so of course the driver would pull over. They aren't likely to park smack in the middle of the street at any point along their tour. It's inconsiderate to other drivers and incidentally against the law.
Now perhaps the initial stop was hampered by parked vehicles (red car/firetruck) and the tour bus had to monetarily park in the roadway. But as seconds turned to minutes and they were still waiting for "the show" to start, the driver decided to pull forward or back to park and allow traffic a lane to pass, necessitating backing up to a clear spot along the curb so the driver could park.
So either the bus was always on the far right side of it's lane, and it was only angle and perspective that made it appear to be right beside the firetruck... or as the moment grew longer, the driver decided to park and this event was not captured on camera.
Either way, the pickup truck DOES pass the bus at some point and in some facet, and it IS depicted in the wild running camera footage poised and ready to pass as soon as the ambulance (and the paps) get out of the street.
Remember the red car is further forward, as it is positioned beside the ambulance, which is further forward then the firetruck/tour bus), out of the way of the tour bus and not blocking it's driver's ability to park.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 21, 2011, 11:56:02 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx8KrGIQ5mg[/youtube]
@Shy...thanks for your comments. I, too, appreciate everyone's input (yours included) and the time taken to 'investigate' as much as possible, even if it turns out to be a dead end. We're gonna hit some of those along the way lol...and I'm completely ok with that. With every dead end, our horizons expand...and that is never a waste.
bearhug
Edited to add one of my fav quotes...seems fitting:
~Never let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game~ ::P
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: eternalflame on November 21, 2011, 12:15:23 PM
os...I am missing out on one fact and here is my question:Is anyone able to answer MaryK's question? I tried to find out but Time and possibilities were Limited and I would Be interested in, too. Thanks!!
What is the official indication of time for the arrival of the ambulance at UCLA?
Post by: bec on November 21, 2011, 12:19:25 PM
Post by: heartwarrior on November 21, 2011, 12:19:29 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 21, 2011, 12:27:46 PM
If I'm reading this right, the ambulance left Carolwood at 1:07 and arrived at UCLA at 1:13pm.
If that's not correct, someone please jump in.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: MsTrinity333 on November 21, 2011, 12:44:36 PM
The coroners van video becomes pointless if Michael didn't go to UCLA on 6/25/2009. Why would it even be created if it wasn't important?no it does not sound like MJ to me.
If this has been planned for nearly 20 years I can't imaagine Michael not being all up in it to supervise. Does slipping away in a car in the middle of the night soundlike michael to you guys?
I agree the van video was made for a reason. But i concede it may have been just for fun.
Forgive me guys...I'm behind so this may have been covered. But this van vid was made the same date as the second autopsy pic we all saw & Souza stretched with the upside down number looking like an 8. I stated back then it was a clue and no one responded... start at time sig. 4:01
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMqP0lSbuWQ&t=4m1s[/youtube]
Post by: wishingstar on November 21, 2011, 01:57:35 PM
I just came across this vid and find it extremely interesting...seems anything is possible these days with a green/blue screen. It becomes even more interesting when combined with them 'highlighting' the use of green screen during TII.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clnozSXyF4k[/youtube]
How much of what we saw from BEN at Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th was real and how much was simply illusion...our 'eyes playing tricks on us'?
It looks like the sky's the limit these days when it comes to creating illusions.
With L.O.V.E. always.
I had started a reply to this......now I can't find it. I thought I had posted about it....my bad BTC. I actually find this video quite amazing indeed. When I wrote about who exactly would/what kind of person would need to be involved to make this hoax happen, I totally believe green screen had to be used for some parts at least. The ambulance scene is shot from different angles, with different cameras. Still, there is an underlying suspicion of professional equipment for me. I don't think these shots could have mirrored real life and still have this quality...especially the HollywoodTV one. I have to ask again...who really owns things? Who is really producing/distributing things? HollywoodTV got this video from Ben? From someone else? Who? Were they actually there? Who is filming/photographing Ben? It's a scene we are seeing, not life....hard to distinguish when such emotions are raging inside. That's why people have believed he's dead. Once Michael got the world to believe he's dead...by making sure 2-3 videos of the ambulance were shown(part live action/part green/or a combination...) , it's off to the races with producing the rest...memorial, funeral, ForestLawn shots....part green screened, part not...is that really our job to uncover the exact how's? Unless we are all well trained technical people, I don't think we can totally prove all the how's. I think it's our job the disprove some theories and point out discrepancies. I think Michael must have left some things to pure illusion...otherwise, why bother. Green screen must have been used in part....not sure exactly, or how exactly, but I do believe it's done that way. Your video totally shows how Hollywood can manipulate a scene.....amazing. I thank you for posting it for sure!!!!
Blessings Always
Post by: paula-c on November 21, 2011, 02:09:18 PM
Quote
ladymedic wrote:
In reference to the ambulance thing, I can clear some stuff up, as well.
She is correct. We (ambulances) do not transport dead people. We DO transport working cardiac arrests (which is technically a dead person). So, if someone is past the point of attempting resuscitative efforts (significant rigor, lividity, injuries incompatible with life, etc.), we leave the patient on scene, do not transport, and call the coroner/ME. If we believe they are workable (not necessarily that they will survive), we transport.
Every system I've worked in, we try to call for another ambulance as well as the fire department. There's a lot that needs to happen when working a code, and the two people on the ambulance are not enough to take care of everything that goes on on their own. Another ambulance allows for more medics. A fire engine allows for more personnel. Each system is different, but it is rare that one single ambulance and no other apparatus goes to a working arrest.
The "not breathing at all" thing is an EMD code. It means literally that the person is not breathing at all. This is opposed to other EMD codes such as breathing uncertain, ineffective breathing, suffocation, obvious death, etc. Therefore, not breathing at all can certainly be a working arrest, and more than one ambulance is sent.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9760&start=10
Post by: wishingstar on November 21, 2011, 02:09:58 PM
(http://thedailyfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jacko_letter1_2103_100626a.jpg)
If I'm reading this right, the ambulance left Carolwood at 1:07 and arrived at UCLA at 1:13pm.
If that's not correct, someone please jump in.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Yep...that's what the report says. Again...one of my favorite areas to look at..this report has SO much information on it.....or dis-information. It's filled out incorrectly, it gives the wrong birthday, mis-pelled name, invalid license # for Murray, the list is huge.......
thanks for posting it. It was filled out supposedly by the ambulance paramedic....I say no way.
Blessings Always
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 21, 2011, 02:17:50 PM
Here are the YouTube videos that I was referring to (#4).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI)
Okay, video 3. I don't see what they mean with the first part (the PIP). It's two totally different angles and distances, and I see nothing strange, so if someone else does, please explain to me for i really can't.
The security at the back being in the shadow in the video, and in the light on the still of the video showing the picture is the same as I explained earlier. The still from the picture is of low quality and very light. Besides that, it's a photo, which means that there is a huge chance that they lighted the picture up before they printed it, it could easily have been manipulated to make it sharper/lighter/etc.
I had never seen any of these videos before, but all three of them are clearly not reliable at all.
Post by: Sarahli on November 21, 2011, 02:19:10 PM
Here are the YouTube videos that I was referring to (#4).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI)
Oh souvenir, souvenir, I remember those videos and how confusing I found them. geek/ Concerning the video 3 that's what the person is trying to show us: "What we saw was the ambulance in the WolrdNewsDaily video driving off while at the same time the cameraman for the hollywoodtv video was still filming the right side of the ambulance as it had not yet moved forward!"
I think it's all just due to angle, perspective and synchronicity of the videos compared. Especially since the HollywoodTv footage is filmed from very close to the ambulance and the other from afar and from an angle which view is at a certain point blocked. I just took 2 screenshots to give an idea:
(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8900/video3b.jpg)
(http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/5919/video3c.jpg)
Post by: Sarahli on November 21, 2011, 02:24:46 PM
That could have 2 ambulances that day in the house:Quoteladymedic wrote:http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9760&start=10
In reference to the ambulance thing, I can clear some stuff up, as well.
She is correct. We (ambulances) do not transport dead people. We DO transport working cardiac arrests (which is technically a dead person). So, if someone is past the point of attempting resuscitative efforts (significant rigor, lividity, injuries incompatible with life, etc.), we leave the patient on scene, do not transport, and call the coroner/ME. If we believe they are workable (not necessarily that they will survive), we transport.
Every system I've worked in, we try to call for another ambulance as well as the fire department. There's a lot that needs to happen when working a code, and the two people on the ambulance are not enough to take care of everything that goes on on their own. Another ambulance allows for more medics. A fire engine allows for more personnel. Each system is different, but it is rare that one single ambulance and no other apparatus goes to a working arrest.
The "not breathing at all" thing is an EMD code. It means literally that the person is not breathing at all. This is opposed to other EMD codes such as breathing uncertain, ineffective breathing, suffocation, obvious death, etc. Therefore, not breathing at all can certainly be a working arrest, and more than one ambulance is sent.
I think that following the timeline/testimonies of the main "actors" is the most important and for me the main "actors" here are the paramedics. If something doesn't follow their timeline it most probably is something that will raise suspicions. Like with these supposed 2/3 ambulances. It doesn't make any sense especially considering Senneff's testimony. It was always question of one ambulance with the necessary equipment and each paramedic having their tasks specified. So it makes more sense that this is the scenario that unfolded on June 25th, i.e. with one ambulance.
Post by: applehead250609 on November 21, 2011, 03:33:00 PM
Quote
TS_comments:
Dear Applehead,
First, you have given no explanation for WHY there would need to be more than one ambulance, nor WHY Michael would NEED to hire stalker fans to be in on the hoax. There are so many "Justice for MJ" fans, why would he need to hire a few extra??
Just because someone is an actor, does not mean that they are in on the hoax--otherwise, almost all of Hollywood (plus all other actors around the world) are in on the hoax.
Furthermore, even IF some stalker fans were in on the hoax (for some strange reason), yet you would also need MANY other people in on the hoax, in order for the multiple ambulance theory to work. And again, WHY??
Finally, if it is "clear like daylight" that there were 2 ambulances (unless you mean the fire truck and ambulance), then could you please share that evidence with others here--and not keep it to yourself?
Thanks. ::P
Dear TS number 2 geek/ I will SPILL THE BEANS with one condition: IF after that, YOU will be kind enough to RESPOND me back at SOME QUESTIONs :)!!!!! Thank you very much!!!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 21, 2011, 03:52:18 PM
Post by: bec on November 21, 2011, 03:53:25 PM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 21, 2011, 03:59:23 PM
QuoteTS_comments:
Dear Applehead,
First, you have given no explanation for WHY there would need to be more than one ambulance, nor WHY Michael would NEED to hire stalker fans to be in on the hoax. There are so many "Justice for MJ" fans, why would he need to hire a few extra??
Just because someone is an actor, does not mean that they are in on the hoax--otherwise, almost all of Hollywood (plus all other actors around the world) are in on the hoax.
Furthermore, even IF some stalker fans were in on the hoax (for some strange reason), yet you would also need MANY other people in on the hoax, in order for the multiple ambulance theory to work. And again, WHY??
Finally, if it is "clear like daylight" that there were 2 ambulances (unless you mean the fire truck and ambulance), then could you please share that evidence with others here--and not keep it to yourself?
Thanks. ::P
Dear TS number 2 geek/ I will SPILL THE BEANS with one condition: IF after that, YOU will be kind enough to RESPOND me back at SOME QUESTIONs :)!!!!! Thank you very much!!!
"Dear TS, I will only share evidence on MY conditions. If you do not exactly as I say, I will NOT share it."
I doubt TS is sensitive to that kind of blackmail. :roll:
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 21, 2011, 04:03:11 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 21, 2011, 04:28:12 PM
(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/79698/RGC002-willis.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Please share the info you have...I'm definitely interested to hear it (even if TS doesn't reply to you).
@WishingStar...I'm glad you liked the green-screen vid. Fascinating stuff huh? It makes me wonder just how much we've seen...not only in the hoax but other stuff that's been passed off as 'reality', like in the news, etc...when, in fact, it's an illusion. It makes sense that Mike would've incorporated it somehow, somewhere, sometime in the hoax...they already had the stuff rented for TII lol.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 21, 2011, 04:30:16 PM
@MsTrinity , great to see this vid you added,.. number 2 answered a question i had for a few weeks now. and i have searched for evidence but couldn't find it, after reading almost all the trial procedures and rules i could find. bangbang
I posted this ( i think its the previously threat), that there was someone called John( in the chatroom during the trial,.. who let us focus on the date changed by jury.... Here (the Netherlands) even criminals go free for so called mistakes in the past. But i couldn't find the answer ,...... if its same for the US.. Now i have the answer. Thank you. ::P
Im sorry for being offtopic, /white flag/
Post by: MaryK on November 21, 2011, 04:49:37 PM
(http://thedailyfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jacko_letter1_2103_100626a.jpg)
If I'm reading this right, the ambulance left Carolwood at 1:07 and arrived at UCLA at 1:13pm.
If that's not correct, someone please jump in.
With L.O.V.E. always.
@BeTheChange: thank you very much for this!
Now....my second question would be: are there any reports that indicate a different time than 1:13 pm for the arrival at UCLA?
Are their any discrepancies that can be found?
Like Randy and Frank reported that the ambulance was going to UCLA between 10.30 and 11.00 am, then again other time stated by Ben, other time stated by the starline tours lady, other time in the "official" statements.
Post by: applehead250609 on November 21, 2011, 04:55:37 PM
Applehead, do you think that there is an "I" in TEAM?
LOL SOuza you put the wrong LETTER,lol lolol/ !!!
It's not I, it's A, so to speak A-TEAM :roll: !!!!!
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_letykjQH1M1qa8yneo1_500.jpg)
Post by: MJonmind on November 21, 2011, 05:00:36 PM
Oh Applehead, you do like to play hard! lolol/
How many people do we know for sure that intimately know EXACTLY what went down on that day, besides TS? Would Ortega, Alverez, LaToya, Jermaine, Ben? Were all insiders totally briefed on all the synchronizing of details? Why of all those people on the tourbus, why none are taking videos or pics to post online? When you take a tour you make sure you have your camera, and all cameras/cell phones have video capability.
Bec
Quote
Either way, the pickup truck DOES pass the bus at some point and in some facet, and it IS depicted in the wild running camera footage poised and ready to pass as soon as the ambulance (and the paps) get out of the street.I agree, and when the ambulance backs up, the bus people worry the pap will be run over, there is plenty of room. Some lenses make objects appear closer than they are.
MsTrinity333
Quote
Forgive me guys...I'm behind so this may have been covered. But this van vid was made the same date as the second autopsy pic we all saw & Souza stretched with the upside down number looking like an 8. I stated back then it was a clue and no one responded... start at time sig. 4:01I think that we'll have to wait for 7b, c to delve into all the ways MJ being totally out of the picture and on the getaway plane, affects everything. It appears we have been deliberately mislead to believe he was there on scene and involved but now... These were the things that initially got the hoax community in motion. But who knows if MJ boarded the plane, circled a few times and landed again/went somewhere for a day or two, and came back to sit back with the kids to watch the chaos (with popcorn).
Post by: paula-c on November 21, 2011, 06:14:59 PM
QuoteTS_comments:
Dear Applehead,
First, you have given no explanation for WHY there would need to be more than one ambulance, nor WHY Michael would NEED to hire stalker fans to be in on the hoax. There are so many "Justice for MJ" fans, why would he need to hire a few extra??
Just because someone is an actor, does not mean that they are in on the hoax--otherwise, almost all of Hollywood (plus all other actors around the world) are in on the hoax.
Furthermore, even IF some stalker fans were in on the hoax (for some strange reason), yet you would also need MANY other people in on the hoax, in order for the multiple ambulance theory to work. And again, WHY??
Finally, if it is "clear like daylight" that there were 2 ambulances (unless you mean the fire truck and ambulance), then could you please share that evidence with others here--and not keep it to yourself?
Thanks. ::P
Dear TS number 2 geek/ I will SPILL THE BEANS with one condition: IF after that, YOU will be kind enough to RESPOND me back at SOME QUESTIONs :)!!!!! Thank you very much!!!
Recruited or used?
Post by: Elsa on November 21, 2011, 06:37:10 PM
Here are the YouTube videos that I was referring to (#4).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQETywL9Ih0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVmCy68UWkI)
I watched the first video a long time ago and couldn't find it again- so thank you TS for posting the link. I have always found that video very convincing. The person who is at the back window and then runs around the side of the ambulance past both Chris (as Chris turns to run left) and Ben, is not seen in that position on the other video. In the tour bus video Chris is still at the window as the ambulance turns to leave and the little guy in the black shirt who is the only other person who could have filmed at the side is nowhere in view. Seems a lot to happen in a short space of time.
There is a moment in the tour bus video that exactly matches the published still photo - the one paula-c posted with the reflector circled. Does everyone agree that the smaller guy in the black shirt moves in the right way around the back of the van to be the same one filming the Hollywood.TV video? Watching it again - very carefully I think - has only confirmed what I believe so I am really interested to see TS debunk it.
I'm glad that there are others in this thread whose eyes work like mine! Oh @applehead250609 thanks for posting that video!
Post by: paula-c on November 21, 2011, 08:39:45 PM
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/35250010.jpg)
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/35080010.jpg)
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 21, 2011, 10:12:39 PM
Post by: PureLove on November 21, 2011, 11:09:02 PM
That could have 2 ambulances that day in the house:Quoteladymedic wrote:
In reference to the ambulance thing, I can clear some stuff up, as well.
She is correct. We (ambulances) do not transport dead people. We DO transport working cardiac arrests (which is technically a dead person). So, if someone is past the point of attempting resuscitative efforts (significant rigor, lividity, injuries incompatible with life, etc.), we leave the patient on scene, do not transport, and call the coroner/ME. If we believe they are workable (not necessarily that they will survive), we transport.
Every system I've worked in, we try to call for another ambulance as well as the fire department. There's a lot that needs to happen when working a code, and the two people on the ambulance are not enough to take care of everything that goes on on their own. Another ambulance allows for more medics. A fire engine allows for more personnel. Each system is different, but it is rare that one single ambulance and no other apparatus goes to a working arrest.
The "not breathing at all" thing is an EMD code. It means literally that the person is not breathing at all. This is opposed to other EMD codes such as breathing uncertain, ineffective breathing, suffocation, obvious death, etc. Therefore, not breathing at all can certainly be a working arrest, and more than one ambulance is sent.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9760&start=10
Thank you for reminding this post Paula. Ladymedic explained it well under what circumstances they send more than one ambulance. So, IF they didn't know about the hoax and IF they thought that there was someone who was not breathing, they would have sent two ambulances because more than 2 EMTs would be needed in a "not breathing at all" situation. IF there were more than one ambulances, this could mean that they didn't know about the hoax. Then this brings the question; what did Michael use to deceive the EMTs and maybe doctors at UCLA? A donated corpse who died that morning? It is possible. BUT IF there were more than two ambulances at the mansion, why didn't we see any picture of it or never saw it in the videos? Because one of the ambulances was there that day and the other day? But there's no other day (?) and that would create more suspicion on people UNLESS the ambulance was sent to another place to get the best shots from it on the other day. And on THE day, maybe two ambulances were sent to Carollwood but then this means the videos and pictures we see should have taken on the other day, so why no one in those videos say that the ambulance and they were not there on the 25th and the incident happened in another day? As much as I try to reach to a conclusion, more questions occur in my mind. /pull hair/
I still tend to believe this theory where there was only one ambulance at the mansion as the paramedics are in on the hoax, and only just one time the ambulance was there. I agree with TS that it is because of the angle that makes it look like there are different cars or different looking gate etc. The ambulance could not be at the mansion more than one day as they could not create the same exact scene one more time with the same people and just like the one happened the OTHER DAY. All of those people have to be in on it which would make too many people.
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 21, 2011, 11:32:07 PM
(http://thedailyfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jacko_letter1_2103_100626a.jpg)
If I'm reading this right, the ambulance left Carolwood at 1:07 and arrived at UCLA at 1:13pm.
If that's not correct, someone please jump in.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Great job - I can't believe how much has been written in this thread. It will take me a while to catch up. I just saw this report and was reminded in the trial that the paramedic said Michael was 1/2 on the bed and 1/2 on the floor. It's not consistent with the report. I'm sorry if someone else brought this up but it takes me back to how could there have been a body in the room because there are so many conflicting stories.
Post by: wishingstar on November 22, 2011, 12:40:53 AM
(http://thedailyfix.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jacko_letter1_2103_100626a.jpg)
If I'm reading this right, the ambulance left Carolwood at 1:07 and arrived at UCLA at 1:13pm.
If that's not correct, someone please jump in.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Great job - I can't believe how much has been written in this thread. It will take me a while to catch up. I just saw this report and was reminded in the trial that the paramedic said Michael was 1/2 on the bed and 1/2 on the floor. It's not consistent with the report. I'm sorry if someone else brought this up but it takes me back to how could there have been a body in the room because there are so many conflicting stories.
I just watched again...the HollywoodTV video....in this report, surely they are referring to the time they loaded Michael into the ambulance or maybe the time they started down the stairs with him? From 1:07 - 1:13 is 6 minutes (7 if you use inclusive)..my point is, the backing out video alone is 1 minute/30 seconds to film.....I suppose UCLA could be a 5 minute run...maybe? I know it's close, but that close? When do the paramedic's write the time down..in progress, from memory, notes on the fly.....I think I read in the training manual that there is a system for who writes notes during the run. If the time of 1307 (1:07pm) is the "begin transport" time....when exactly did that begin.....if it began at the beginning of the load, or the beginning of backing out.....the actual time to UCLA would have to be different. Just backing out of the driveway took almost 2 extra minutes. How could they leave at 1:07pm, spend 1:30 minutes backing out, and still arrive 6 minutes later. Does anyone get what I am asking? 6 minutes of transport might work, if they actually were hurried out of the driveway.....
I gotta think on this more......
Here are a couple of links to the LAFD handbook talking about patient transport as well as this form. They are the links I had when I did the Hippa violations post:
http://lafdtraining.org/ists/books/bk35.pdf
http://lafdtraining.org/ists/books/bk05.pdf
Blessings Always
Post by: pepper on November 22, 2011, 01:03:26 AM
Thanks bec...I usually don't feel the need but felt it this time. And I'm with you on the MJ 'waltzing' around town that day lol...as ridiculous as it is, I can totally picture Mike doing it :lol:
As for the vids TS posted...I know that a lot of what is said in the vids was debunked a long time ago. I had mentioned one thing yesterday, though, that they also mention in the vid but I can't make sense of it. Perhaps it, too, was debunked a long time ago and I just never saw the explanation for it. Where is the Starline tour bus situated when the cam guy runs back to his car (in Ben's vid)? Based on the 'fan' vid, the bus should be aligned with the firetruck but I don't see it in Ben's.
If anyone can clear that up for me, I'd greatly appreciate it. It's sorta the final 'lingering' doubt I have as to everything having been filmed in real time on June 25th. An explanation would help remove that doubt.
Thanks.
With L.O.V.E. always.
To answer your question, if you can stop this video at 1:37 or thereabouts, you will see the Star Line bus on the other side of the road from the firetruck. It is not blocking the roadway but it is closer to the firetruck than the other cars parked in front of it on the side of the road. You will see the red sports car on the left of the screen, then some other vehicle behind that, then the white Star Lines bus. The firetruck is on the right side of the screen. (Notice that the firetruck has ORANGE CONES in front of it) It is confusing because the way this video is sequenced, the ILLUSION is that there are other vehicles that drive past after the ambulance leaves, but before the Star Lines bus drives up. It may have all been filmed in real time, but then edited in unreal time ;)
I think there were TWO different Star Line Tour buses. The FIRST one, starting at 1:41, you see there are NO ORANGE CONES behind the fire truck. And here comes the Star Line Tour bus, and at 2:01 the man in the blue uniform comes from the front of the firetruck toward the back, where the Star Line bus is, and this man removes an ORANGE CONE from the firetruck and then removes another ORANGE CONE as he talks to people on the Star Lines bus and walks over to put the orange cones on the ground behind the fire truck. The video ends here.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related
We assume that the Star Lines Tour bus in this next video is the same bus, but I don't think so. Look at what is ALREADY behind the firetruck when this Tour bus drives up. Three ORANGE CONES.
And you see that this second Star Lines bus pulls over AFTER the ambulance and the SUV's leave the house, to let other cars pass by.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUxX0fEQU5Q&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUxX0fEQU5Q&feature=related
(Here is a link to another version of this above same video, if you don't trust the TMZ-branded version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx8KrGIQ5mg&feature=related)
Looking at the first video again, at the very beginning, you see the ORANGE CONES. Why would they be there at the beginning of the video, then disappear when the Star Lines Tour bus shows up? So yes, it is obvious that for some reason they spliced the end of this sequence onto the beginning. It is also obvious that there were TWO different tour buses. But only one ambulance.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 22, 2011, 01:12:20 AM
This is a one way street...It comes from a blog post from Romania, fantastic may I add, but because of the new forum etc, this information has been forgotton and overlooked..
This is the site.....alot of great information here......http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/ambulanta
Also, the serial numbers of the emergency vehicles, dont match the ones at Carolwood that day !!
Post by: patman on November 22, 2011, 01:24:18 AM
Thanks bec...I usually don't feel the need but felt it this time. And I'm with you on the MJ 'waltzing' around town that day lol...as ridiculous as it is, I can totally picture Mike doing it :lol:
As for the vids TS posted...I know that a lot of what is said in the vids was debunked a long time ago. I had mentioned one thing yesterday, though, that they also mention in the vid but I can't make sense of it. Perhaps it, too, was debunked a long time ago and I just never saw the explanation for it. Where is the Starline tour bus situated when the cam guy runs back to his car (in Ben's vid)? Based on the 'fan' vid, the bus should be aligned with the firetruck but I don't see it in Ben's.
If anyone can clear that up for me, I'd greatly appreciate it. It's sorta the final 'lingering' doubt I have as to everything having been filmed in real time on June 25th. An explanation would help remove that doubt.
Thanks.
With L.O.V.E. always.
To answer your question, if you can stop this video at 1:37 or thereabouts, you will see the Star Line bus on the other side of the road from the firetruck. It is not blocking the roadway but it is closer to the firetruck than the other cars parked in front of it on the side of the road. You will see the red sports car on the left of the screen, then some other vehicle behind that, then the white Star Lines bus. The firetruck is on the right side of the screen. (Notice that the firetruck has ORANGE CONES in front of it) It is confusing because the way this video is sequenced, the ILLUSION is that there are other vehicles that drive past after the ambulance leaves, but before the Star Lines bus drives up. It may have all been filmed in real time, but then edited in unreal time ;)
I think there were TWO different Star Line Tour buses. The FIRST one, starting at 1:41, you see there are NO ORANGE CONES behind the fire truck. And here comes the Star Line Tour bus, and at 2:01 the man in the blue uniform comes from the front of the firetruck toward the back, where the Star Line bus is, and this man removes an ORANGE CONE from the firetruck and then removes another ORANGE CONE as he talks to people on the Star Lines bus and walks over to put the orange cones on the ground behind the fire truck. The video ends here.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related
We assume that the Star Lines Tour bus in this next video is the same bus, but I don't think so. Look at what is ALREADY behind the firetruck when this Tour bus drives up. Three ORANGE CONES.
And you see that this second Star Lines bus pulls over AFTER the ambulance and the SUV's leave the house, to let other cars pass by.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUxX0fEQU5Q&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUxX0fEQU5Q&feature=related
(Here is a link to another version of this above same video, if you don't trust the TMZ-branded version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx8KrGIQ5mg&feature=related)
Looking at the first video again, at the very beginning, you see the ORANGE CONES. Why would they be there at the beginning of the video, then disappear when the Star Lines Tour bus shows up? So yes, it is obvious that for some reason they spliced the end of this sequence onto the beginning. It is also obvious that there were TWO different tour buses. But only one ambulance.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related
I see in one vid one cone (very hard to see)....and in the other vids, i see more cones....strange....
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 22, 2011, 01:43:02 AM
To answer your question, if you can stop this video at 1:37 or thereabouts, you will see the Star Line bus on the other side of the road from the firetruck. It is not blocking the roadway but it is closer to the firetruck than the other cars parked in front of it on the side of the road. You will see the red sports car on the left of the screen, then some other vehicle behind that, then the white Star Lines bus. The firetruck is on the right side of the screen. (Notice that the firetruck has ORANGE CONES in front of it) It is confusing because the way this video is sequenced, the ILLUSION is that there are other vehicles that drive past after the ambulance leaves, but before the Star Lines bus drives up. It may have all been filmed in real time, but then edited in unreal time ;)
@PEPPER, i love this post. so let me get this right, what you are saying is that when the ambulance left there were no other cars / traffic present. however either before or after the ambulance leaves there were other vehicles. the way the video is edited created illusion that the traffic was there when the ambulance CW.
so orange cones there to protect or prevent people traffic / cars coming thru whilst recording ambulance leaving. then later removed for when tour pass drives pass, again, creating the illusion
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 22, 2011, 02:47:59 AM
You all probably all hear Linda saying "Michael better be alright..."...then Ben says..."Come on Linda, Come on Linda and then laughs at her..........
BUT, as soon as the ambulance takes off.. in the tourist video....LINDA is standing at the corner at her usually post, and is on the phone......HOW DID she get there so fast............????????
And how was she on the phone and crying when he was just being brought to the hospital ???
Post by: Blueberry on November 22, 2011, 05:51:51 AM
I guess that I haven't much to contribute to this discussion on account of that I haven't even watched the trial, apart from one time, and are a bit 'behind'. My studies are 'stealing' my leisure time, but I read as much as I can.
Currently my Internet is so terribly sluggish, and have been that for almost a week. bangbang I couldn't even watch the videos TS yesterday provided! /pull hair/ I almost managed to fall a sleep due to the slowness.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2ugz7k6.jpg)
Even a snail is more rapid! lolol/
(http://i39.tinypic.com/4v1roy.jpg)
@ TS. I haven't said this to you, but I love to read your comments! To be sincere, I have read almost every single post by you. Thank you so much, and I really appreciate your posts. Much peace, love and respect to you! respect/ bearhug
Much L.O.V.E. and many hugs to you! (http://i43.tinypic.com/jkanub.gif)
Post by: Adi on November 22, 2011, 06:11:13 AM
OK....another major slip up......
You all probably all hear Linda saying "Michael better be alright..."...then Ben says..."Come on Linda, Come on Linda and then laughs at her..........
BUT, as soon as the ambulance takes off.. in the tourist video....LINDA is standing at the corner at her usually post, and is on the phone......HOW DID she get there so fast............????????
And how was she on the phone and crying when he was just being brought to the hospital ???
:lol:!!! you know that is funny because each time the ambulance stopped and had to go forward to reposition to try again to reverse (reminded me of when I was trying to teach my son to reverse park!!) was when this was being said & each time I've watched that video over the past 2 years I have always thought it was the guy directing/helping the ambulance back out of the driveway who was saying "awww Linda..... come on Linda..... come on Linda". Like he had given the ambulance the pet name of Linda!!! I'd totally forgotten Linda the Starmaps lady.
His voice was a comedic spoof of .......well.....something :lol:
Post by: loyalfan on November 22, 2011, 06:52:53 AM
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 22, 2011, 08:17:16 AM
Apparently, earlier in the day, before the video was taken, there was an EMS 9 at the scene....and there's was no-one in the car, and the car was blocking the road....
This is a one way street...It comes from a blog post from Romania, fantastic may I add, but because of the new forum etc, this information has been forgotton and overlooked..
This is the site.....alot of great information here......http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/ambulanta
Also, the serial numbers of the emergency vehicles, dont match the ones at Carolwood that day !!
Thank you for posting this - there is a lot of great information that get's lost in the mix, for sure :)
This is great information. So, if there were emergency personnel there earlier that day why wasn't it being reported?
It's been mentioned but worth repeating - the ambulance license plate is 1261551 which equals 21 (777).
In the first video there is a reflection of a plate and the numbers look like they've been altered. Why would that be and can anyone figure out which vehicle it is?
Post by: wishingstar on November 22, 2011, 08:31:57 AM
OK....another major slip up......
You all probably all hear Linda saying "Michael better be alright..."...then Ben says..."Come on Linda, Come on Linda and then laughs at her..........
BUT, as soon as the ambulance takes off.. in the tourist video....LINDA is standing at the corner at her usually post, and is on the phone......HOW DID she get there so fast............????????
And how was she on the phone and crying when he was just being brought to the hospital ???
OMGosh 2good.....
Did you read my mind or something? I was thinking that late last night, after I went to bed, the thought of just this passed by me. LOL...great minds......crazy timing with all this for sure. I seriously doubt there were two Lindas there that day..not a common name really.
And yes, Adi...the voice that says, ".....ah come on Linda...." is comic sounding in nature......almost in a Jackie Gleason, Honeymooners way (if anyone knows what I am talking about, lol... I am not old enough to have watched, I just love older TV shows)
Great thought 2Good......thanks for posting : ) BTW......how do you know it's Ben? Did I miss something?
Blessings Always
Post by: paula-c on November 22, 2011, 08:35:50 AM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 22, 2011, 08:42:06 AM
All I know is that after reading TS' comments, I felt like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/bonniebee2003/emoticons/penguinslap.gif)<---TS being the 'slapper'
(use_your_illusion will know exactly what I mean :lol:)
I then 'regrouped' and things started to become very clear to me.
Now having read this page of comments first thing in the morning (pre-coffee), I feel like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/bonniebee2003/emoticons/puter.gif)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I might have to add some Irish Cream to the coffee today :?
On another note....7a has taken 12 days (inclusive) so far, and there's been no confirmation that it's complete. TS stated that level 7 will not go beyond November 29th...which leaves only 8 possible days (inclusive) to finish up 'a' and get through b and c. TS also stated that once we get through 7a...who or what went to UCLA that day will become clear (is it any clearer to anyone?). I'm starting to think that level 7 might be an example of a hoax within a hoax :lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: dantheman on November 22, 2011, 09:00:57 AM
Apparently, earlier in the day, before the video was taken, there was an EMS 9 at the scene....and there's was no-one in the car, and the car was blocking the road....
This is a one way street...It comes from a blog post from Romania, fantastic may I add, but because of the new forum etc, this information has been forgotton and overlooked..
This is the site.....alot of great information here......http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/ambulanta
Also, the serial numbers of the emergency vehicles, dont match the ones at Carolwood that day !!
Thank you for posting this - there is a lot of great information that get's lost in the mix, for sure :)
This is great information. So, if there were emergency personnel there earlier that day why wasn't it being reported?
It's been mentioned but worth repeating - the ambulance license plate is 1261551 which equals 21 (777).
In the first video there is a reflection of a plate and the numbers look like they've been altered. Why would that be and can anyone figure out which vehicle it is?
speaking of number plates - here is another puzzle for you. I have been thinking of highlighting this for a long time (7 months), but the powers that be would not let me...I have now gone against them, and can tell you, if you decipher this clue you will find Mr Jackson, it was left in by mistake by NPG. I cannot say any more. You will soon find out why he is where he is. Some of you already know, without realising it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aysbUMVVihw#t=336s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_California
Dan
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 22, 2011, 09:22:27 AM
Post by: fordtocarr on November 22, 2011, 09:53:16 AM
Apparently, earlier in the day, before the video was taken, there was an EMS 9 at the scene....and there's was no-one in the car, and the car was blocking the road....
This is a one way street...It comes from a blog post from Romania, fantastic may I add, but because of the new forum etc, this information has been forgotton and overlooked..
This is the site.....alot of great information here......http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/ambulanta
Also, the serial numbers of the emergency vehicles, dont match the ones at Carolwood that day !!
Thank you for posting this - there is a lot of great information that get's lost in the mix, for sure :)
This is great information. So, if there were emergency personnel there earlier that day why wasn't it being reported?
It's been mentioned but worth repeating - the ambulance license plate is 1261551 which equals 21 (777).
In the first video there is a reflection of a plate and the numbers look like they've been altered. Why would that be and can anyone figure out which vehicle it is?
speaking of number plates - here is another puzzle for you. I have been thinking of highlighting this for a long time (7 months), but the powers that be would not let me...I have now gone against them, and can tell you, if you decipher this clue you will find Mr Jackson, it was left in by mistake by NPG. I cannot say any more. You will soon find out why he is where he is. Some of you already know, without realising it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aysbUMVVihw#t=336s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_California
Dan
Dan, I don't think I'm as intrigued by what you write or what you don't.
I wonder who you are and how you know this info and why you couldn't write about it sooner.
I wonder how you get the info that this will lead us to Michael.
I wonder why you just come to us after almost 2 years.
You have puzzled me.
Welcome!!! :)
Post by: paula-c on November 22, 2011, 09:54:05 AM
However, there are still a few points which should be made clearer, and then we can go to 7b.
#1. Nobody responded to this: "I do not know if this had been published before perhaps yes, but anyway, Witness said that there were three ambulances at home that day." {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg372716;topicseen#msg372716}.
confused/
Video in the Link
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/video?id=6884954
Post by: bec on November 22, 2011, 10:34:58 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 22, 2011, 11:35:54 AM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 22, 2011, 11:42:01 AM
Please ignore messages like that guys and don't feed the trolls.
Post by: MaryK on November 22, 2011, 11:48:15 AM
Oh dear God....
Please ignore messages like that guys and don't feed the trolls.
Agree 100 %. If anybody really wants to attach any importance to this ( I WON´T...that´s for sure)...please be prepared for a malicious attempt to alienate you!
Post by: MsTrinity333 on November 22, 2011, 11:55:47 AM
Apparently, earlier in the day, before the video was taken, there was an EMS 9 at the scene....and there's was no-one in the car, and the car was blocking the road....
This is a one way street...It comes from a blog post from Romania, fantastic may I add, but because of the new forum etc, this information has been forgotton and overlooked..
This is the site.....alot of great information here......http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/ambulanta
Also, the serial numbers of the emergency vehicles, dont match the ones at Carolwood that day !!
Thank you for posting this - there is a lot of great information that get's lost in the mix, for sure :)
This is great information. So, if there were emergency personnel there earlier that day why wasn't it being reported?
It's been mentioned but worth repeating - the ambulance license plate is 1261551 which equals 21 (777).
In the first video there is a reflection of a plate and the numbers look like they've been altered. Why would that be and can anyone figure out which vehicle it is?
speaking of number plates - here is another puzzle for you. I have been thinking of highlighting this for a long time (7 months), but the powers that be would not let me...I have now gone against them, and can tell you, if you decipher this clue you will find Mr Jackson, it was left in by mistake by NPG. I cannot say any more. You will soon find out why he is where he is. Some of you already know, without realising it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aysbUMVVihw#t=336s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_California
Dan
Ok... The Romanian log is interesting but not in English so I will leave that to others. I'm not sure what you are trying to say concerning the Wiki link & plates, but I find the video interesting for two reasons.
1. Starting @ time sig 5:15 time listed is 12:27 Ambo arrived. We see the Firetruck 71 with cones on the ground, LIGHTS FLASHING as well as a Red Police Car also with LIGHTS FLASHING looking like it 's parked in front of the Fire Truck, right side, at an angle... I can't see the number on the window.
2. Then at time sig 6:38 we see the Fire Truck with NO FLASHING LIGHTS, & EMS 9 with NO FLASHING LIGHTS parked toward the BACK of the firetruck along with the Red car. Is this the same Red Police/EMS car?
If so Why was it moved???
Post by: JentleTouch on November 22, 2011, 12:05:07 PM
oh wow! :) :)Apparently, earlier in the day, before the video was taken, there was an EMS 9 at the scene....and there's was no-one in the car, and the car was blocking the road....
This is a one way street...It comes from a blog post from Romania, fantastic may I add, but because of the new forum etc, this information has been forgotton and overlooked..
This is the site.....alot of great information here......http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/ambulanta
Also, the serial numbers of the emergency vehicles, dont match the ones at Carolwood that day !!
Thank you for posting this - there is a lot of great information that get's lost in the mix, for sure :)
This is great information. So, if there were emergency personnel there earlier that day why wasn't it being reported?
It's been mentioned but worth repeating - the ambulance license plate is 1261551 which equals 21 (777).
In the first video there is a reflection of a plate and the numbers look like they've been altered. Why would that be and can anyone figure out which vehicle it is?
speaking of number plates - here is another puzzle for you. I have been thinking of highlighting this for a long time (7 months), but the powers that be would not let me...I have now gone against them, and can tell you, if you decipher this clue you will find Mr Jackson, it was left in by mistake by NPG. I cannot say any more. You will soon find out why he is where he is. Some of you already know, without realising it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aysbUMVVihw#t=336s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_California
Dan
Guys, your forum is the funniest and most exciting place I've ever been, really lol
Post by: MsTrinity333 on November 22, 2011, 12:06:40 PM
OK....another major slip up......YES. I caught this too. Why was Ben "coaching" Linda? :lol: This was set up bc they knew she would be there & how she would react. They were counting on it.
You all probably all hear Linda saying "Michael better be alright..."...then Ben says..."Come on Linda, Come on Linda and then laughs at her..........
BUT, as soon as the ambulance takes off.. in the tourist video....LINDA is standing at the corner at her usually post, and is on the phone......HOW DID she get there so fast............????????
And how was she on the phone and crying when he was just being brought to the hospital ???
Post by: dantheman on November 22, 2011, 12:53:50 PM
speaking of number plates - here is another puzzle for you. I have been thinking of highlighting this for a long time (7 months), but the powers that be would not let me...I have now gone against them, and can tell you, if you decipher this clue you will find Mr Jackson, it was left in by mistake by NPG. I cannot say any more. You will soon find out why he is where he is. Some of you already know, without realising it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aysbUMVVihw#t=336s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_California
Dan
Ok... The Romanian log is interesting but not in English so I will leave that to others. I'm not sure what you are trying to say concerning the Wiki link & plates, but I find the video interesting for two reasons.
1. Starting @ time sig 5:15 time listed is 12:27 Ambo arrived. We see the Firetruck 71 with cones on the ground, LIGHTS FLASHING as well as a Red Police Car also with LIGHTS FLASHING looking like it 's parked in front of the Fire Truck, right side, at an angle... I can't see the number on the window.
2. Then at time sig 6:38 we see the Fire Truck with NO FLASHING LIGHTS, & EMS 9 with NO FLASHING LIGHTS parked toward the BACK of the firetruck along with the Red car. Is this the same Red Police/EMS car?
If so Why was it moved???
I swore to myself I wouldn't post agaIn, but I must have been too vague - let me spell it out foR you, you arE getting very cLose, but trAce the red car (not the ems car) parked in froNt of the resiDence and you will have cracked it. I did this 7 months ago, and have been sworn not to reveal what I found, but it's just too hard. For those who want to wait, fine. For those who want to understand, just do it. For those who want to judge me, do the research then judge me. I don't mind I haven't got an agenda other than the truth, I just cannot hand it to you for legal reasons, however I can point you to clues that are in the PUBLIC domain. This has to be my last post, hope you'll understand, you can take it from here.
Dan (PS this is obviously NOT my real name - no need to worry about it, I just need to protect myself)
Post by: Blueberry on November 22, 2011, 01:33:45 PM
Much L.O.V.E. and hugs to everybody
Post by: mimi248 on November 22, 2011, 02:44:20 PM
This is the final frontier for the hoax; the “when’s” and “why’s” have already been thoroughly established, especially through the numerology—and more than a year has gone by, without anyone even making a serious attempt to claim the $999 reward. Therefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
The previous levels were not a waste, because without them we would not be where we are now. Much of the research has already been done, and some of the pieces have already come together (just like the picture above); but we still have a few major areas that need completed (just like the picture above). As I have said already, the minor details on the “how’s” are not very important (and may never been fully understood); however, for more than one reason, the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved.
For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7. Another major area, that keeps popping up unresolved, is the idea that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on some day other than 6-25-09; and closely related is the fairly common idea that two or more ambulances were used (supposedly different lettering, reflector, wrong shadows, etc).
There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo). There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
The ambulance photo needed to be staged in advance, because of the great difficulty getting a good picture through the window “on the fly”; and if you missed the one chance, you would not get another. But staging that photo in advance would not raise public suspicion, if it was done indoors.
Also, some seem to think that the ambulance picture was generated from nothing, in good-old “Photoshop”; but the reality is, no matter how good you are at Photoshop, you don’t just start from nothing and end up with a high resolution photograph (like the ambulance photo). Staging the ambulance photo gives you the basic picture(s) to work from; and then you can modify it with Photoshop (such as adding the car reflection, by taking a separate photo of the car, and then layering it in Photoshop with some transparency).
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked. Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.
8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
penguin/
At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Last but not least, here is a real good statement from bec, which she posted in my recent thread about the timing of the 911 call (12:20 or 12:21?). Keep this concept in mind, because it applies to far more than just the 911 call. “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203)}.
[/quote]
Well i do have a theorie. it might be unbelievable but it's just what i mean, and no one is obligated to agree with me of course ;)
So, i'm really embarassed to make this possibility but as we know , with michael EVERYTHING and i mean it EVERYTHING is possible.
So let's start. What, if MJ was really dead on june 25th 2009 and autopsy was
" indeed fake BUT real" BUT,( and this is what will make the big difference ) he has just ascensionned :s . this is weird i know. As we know, MJ was called the Light, Man and after a huge reflexion, i truly believe that Michael IS the Archangel Michael sent by god to help the whole world. and here we are, remember he said" i'm the light of the world this is real". and if this wasn't enough MJ also talked in signs language at the end of this is it, which means " i will show myself to the world ". I just want to remind you something .. Before jesus, there was also Horus and others. both have lived Jesus's fate. Born of a virgin, died ,3 days after resurrected. there we go, what if MJ had the SAME destiny?!! He born of a virgin ( katherine in hebrew wants to say "pure"), born of Joseph, had exactly the same life of jesus!! this is just incredible how their life are just highly identical also crucified,
and i'm sure you know what i'm talking about !!! ;)
Post by: applehead250609 on November 22, 2011, 03:33:32 PM
Apparently, earlier in the day, before the video was taken, there was an EMS 9 at the scene....and there's was no-one in the car, and the car was blocking the road....
This is a one way street...It comes from a blog post from Romania, fantastic may I add, but because of the new forum etc, this information has been forgotton and overlooked..
This is the site.....alot of great information here......http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/ambulanta
Also, the serial numbers of the emergency vehicles, dont match the ones at Carolwood that day !!
Thank you for posting this - there is a lot of great information that get's lost in the mix, for sure :)
This is great information. So, if there were emergency personnel there earlier that day why wasn't it being reported?
It's been mentioned but worth repeating - the ambulance license plate is 1261551 which equals 21 (777).
In the first video there is a reflection of a plate and the numbers look like they've been altered. Why would that be and can anyone figure out which vehicle it is?
speaking of number plates - here is another puzzle for you. I have been thinking of highlighting this for a long time (7 months), but the powers that be would not let me...I have now gone against them, and can tell you, if you decipher this clue you will find Mr Jackson, it was left in by mistake by NPG. I cannot say any more. You will soon find out why he is where he is. Some of you already know, without realising it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aysbUMVVihw#t=336s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_California
Dan
YES ,YES thank you very much DAN,God bless you :)!!!!
Hy TS :), I missed you !!!! Now it's time to put IN PRACTICE what I had learned,together with YOU and my FRIENDS here,on this forym,for more than 2 years now albino/ geek/ !!!
First of all I will show what was one of the motive because all this started ,and I have to thank GRACE,and TMZ also :):
(http://perfectmakeups.info/Smoky%20eyes%20in%20two%20versions.jpg)
Do you remember about the WHAT'S THE BIG FRIGIN'DIFFERENCE,on TMZ?!?
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2011/09/30/0930-difference-launch-credit.jpg)
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQNhjU5314zQudmFqrwtJ8IA_eOEEtQ5_l6dApxiUggCiebmyqYqw)
That's why we always have 2 SIDES OF A STORY,because"There Are Two Sides to Every Story"(Joshua 22:1-34) .
Quote
"Have you ever jumped to a conclusion before hearing both sides of a story? Have you ever failed to give someone the benefit of the doubt, even though they had never wronged you :cry: :cry: :cry:? This Sunday we will learn that “There Are Two Sides to Every Story.”
THEY were filming the SAME EVENT but......that event took place on two separate RE- ENACTMENTS!!!!
The WHITE RABBIT albino/ ,lives in WONDERLAND,where is a WEIRD SENSE OF ORDER .For people who had read or saw the MOVIE Alice in Wonderland,know very well what I'm talking here :) .Apparently, adults need rules to live by. But most people adhere to those rules blindly now, without asking themselves 'why'. This leads to the incomprehensible, and sometimes arbitrary behavior that Alice experiences in Wonderland.
THE TIMElines are off in the events of 25 june,just as time STOOD STILL in Wonderland/Neverland albino/ .
(http://jacksonaktak.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/michael-jackson-neverland-clock-bird-eye-view.jpg)
The well known different versions of the ambulance leaving Carolwood Drive have the THE ISSUEs with THE CONCEPT OF TIME.If you insert Ben Evenstad's video into "Hollywood TV" video ,you will notice 3 THINGS:
1. On "Hollywood TV" the gate door is half closed ,meantime on "Ben's video" the gatedoor is open .
2. "On Ben's" video the ambulance has left long before the ambulance in "Hollywood TV"has even finished backing out .
3. The two gentelmen assisting the ambulance are placed differently in the two videos.
How can a footage of ONE SINGLE event turn out with a different timeline and each person doing different things geek/ :?: ?
There it seems to be confusion in the timeline with the dectectives as well :lol: .For example :
Post by: Grace on November 22, 2011, 04:34:03 PM
Quote
Michael Jackson's "This Is It" Trailer Premieres at VMAs Tweet (http://twitter.com/share) By Daniel Kreps September 14, 2009 12:14 AM ET The trailer for This Is It — the documentary capturing rehearsal footage for what would have been Michael Jackson's epic return to the stage — premiered as the finale of the 2009 Video Music Awards (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/30066041/rolling_stone_at_the_video_music_awards). It was a spectacular preview of what fans can expect to see October 28th when the film hits theaters for a two week engagement (http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/21/jacksons-this-is-it-film-secures-two-week-theatrical-run/). "This is an adventure, a great adventure," Jackson says of his show in the two-in-a-half-minute trailer. "We want to take them places that they've never before. We want to show them a time that they've never seen before." In case you missed it, the trailer has been posted on the ThisIsIt-Movie.com (http://www.thisisit-movie.com/) site.http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-premieres-at-vmas-20090914 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-premieres-at-vmas-20090914)
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/CBSA/smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-018.gif)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 22, 2011, 04:41:08 PM
Post by: applehead250609 on November 22, 2011, 04:57:37 PM
QuoteMichael Jackson's "This Is It" Trailer Premieres at VMAs Tweet (http://twitter.com/share) By Daniel Kreps September 14, 2009 12:14 AM ET The trailer for This Is It — the documentary capturing rehearsal footage for what would have been Michael Jackson's epic return to the stage — premiered as the finale of the 2009 Video Music Awards (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/30066041/rolling_stone_at_the_video_music_awards). It was a spectacular preview of what fans can expect to see October 28th when the film hits theaters for a two week engagement (http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/21/jacksons-this-is-it-film-secures-two-week-theatrical-run/). "This is an adventure, a great adventure," Jackson says of his show in the two-in-a-half-minute trailer. "We want to take them places that they've never before. We want to show them a time that they've never seen before." In case you missed it, the trailer has been posted on the ThisIsIt-Movie.com (http://www.thisisit-movie.com/) site.http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-premieres-at-vmas-20090914 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-premieres-at-vmas-20090914)
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/CBSA/smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-018.gif)
Grace let me give you the HEARTs back !!! I LOVE you!!!!
Post by: scorpionchik on November 22, 2011, 05:19:07 PM
OK....another major slip up......
You all probably all hear Linda saying "Michael better be alright..."...then Ben says..."Come on Linda, Come on Linda and then laughs at her..........
BUT, as soon as the ambulance takes off.. in the tourist video....LINDA is standing at the corner at her usually post, and is on the phone......HOW DID she get there so fast............????????
And how was she on the phone and crying when he was just being brought to the hospital ???
OMGosh 2good.....
Did you read my mind or something? I was thinking that late last night, after I went to bed, the thought of just this passed by me. LOL...great minds......crazy timing with all this for sure. I seriously doubt there were two Lindas there that day..not a common name really.
And yes, Adi...the voice that says, ".....ah come on Linda...." is comic sounding in nature......almost in a Jackie Gleason, Honeymooners way (if anyone knows what I am talking about, lol... I am not old enough to have watched, I just love older TV shows)
Great thought 2Good......thanks for posting : ) BTW......how do you know it's Ben? Did I miss something?
Blessings Always
Did she ever give interview or spoke about that day? What info do we have about Linda to find her? The only Sharon who was at HLN speaking about June25 th said she was there too......
Post by: fordtocarr on November 22, 2011, 05:23:44 PM
speaking of number plates - here is another puzzle for you. I have been thinking of highlighting this for a long time (7 months), but the powers that be would not let me...I have now gone against them, and can tell you, if you decipher this clue you will find Mr Jackson, it was left in by mistake by NPG. I cannot say any more. You will soon find out why he is where he is. Some of you already know, without realising it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aysbUMVVihw#t=336s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_California
Dan
Ok... The Romanian log is interesting but not in English so I will leave that to others. I'm not sure what you are trying to say concerning the Wiki link & plates, but I find the video interesting for two reasons.
1. Starting @ time sig 5:15 time listed is 12:27 Ambo arrived. We see the Firetruck 71 with cones on the ground, LIGHTS FLASHING as well as a Red Police Car also with LIGHTS FLASHING looking like it 's parked in front of the Fire Truck, right side, at an angle... I can't see the number on the window.
2. Then at time sig 6:38 we see the Fire Truck with NO FLASHING LIGHTS, & EMS 9 with NO FLASHING LIGHTS parked toward the BACK of the firetruck along with the Red car. Is this the same Red Police/EMS car?
If so Why was it moved???
I swore to myself I wouldn't post agaIn, but I must have been too vague - let me spell it out foR you, you arE getting very cLose, but trAce the red car (not the ems car) parked in froNt of the resiDence and you will have cracked it. I did this 7 months ago, and have been sworn not to reveal what I found, but it's just too hard. For those who want to wait, fine. For those who want to understand, just do it. For those who want to judge me, do the research then judge me. I don't mind I haven't got an agenda other than the truth, I just cannot hand it to you for legal reasons, however I can point you to clues that are in the PUBLIC domain. This has to be my last post, hope you'll understand, you can take it from here.
Dan (PS this is obviously NOT my real name - no need to worry about it, I just need to protect myself)
I KNOW I'm not suppose to bite...but how do we trace that red car...registration..plate or whatever??? I get what you are saying, but not how to go about it. I KNOW we are not suppose to listen to new people coming on here with "information" but we are all new once...
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 22, 2011, 05:25:24 PM
QuoteMichael Jackson's "This Is It" Trailer Premieres at VMAs Tweet (http://twitter.com/share) By Daniel Kreps September 14, 2009 12:14 AM ET The trailer for This Is It — the documentary capturing rehearsal footage for what would have been Michael Jackson's epic return to the stage — premiered as the finale of the 2009 Video Music Awards (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/30066041/rolling_stone_at_the_video_music_awards). It was a spectacular preview of what fans can expect to see October 28th when the film hits theaters for a two week engagement (http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/08/21/jacksons-this-is-it-film-secures-two-week-theatrical-run/). "This is an adventure, a great adventure," Jackson says of his show in the two-in-a-half-minute trailer. "We want to take them places that they've never before. We want to show them a time that they've never seen before." In case you missed it, the trailer has been posted on the ThisIsIt-Movie.com (http://www.thisisit-movie.com/) site.http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-premieres-at-vmas-20090914 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-premieres-at-vmas-20090914)
(http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/CBSA/smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-018.gif)
Grace let me give you the HEARTs back !!! I LOVE you!!!!
Don't know why they say this but in the trailer it's "talent" not "time" - that's what I hear.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 22, 2011, 05:29:18 PM
The first 2 said they were told MJ had trouble breathing around 10:30, and Linda said the ambulance was there at about 11:45.
All of them have problems with the time/hours?
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 22, 2011, 05:34:36 PM
by: James Campbell June 28, 2009
TWO Australian women on a bus tour of Hollywood stars' houses have told of the chaotic scenes as they accidentally witnessed the King of Pop's final exit from his Los Angeles home.
Melbourne woman Sally Wilson of North Fitzroy and her friend Helen Battaglia of Alfred Cove, in Perth, were on a Starlight bus tour when their driver decided to show them Michael Jackson's mansion.
"We turned into where Michael Jackson's been staying and as we came round the corner we saw a fire truck."
"The driver said 'Oh there's a fire truck here, there's a bit happening'."
Ms Wilson said the bus pulled up in front of the gates of the mansion while photographers milled around the entrance.
"All of a sudden the gates open and out came the ambulance while paparazzi were all running and banging and trying to take photos in the back of the ambulance," Ms Wilson said.
They managed to capture the historic moment with photographs that show Jackson's body being taken from his home as his minders try to keep the paparazzi at bay.
Ms Battaglia said the scene became chaotic as Jackson's staff fought to block the paparazzi from grabbing final pictures of the dying star.
Ms Wilson said passengers on the bus had no idea what they were witnessing.
"It was all happening. We weren't sure who was in the car at that stage," she said.
"They were just yelling out and then the ambulance took off and two black SUVs came out of the driveway and followed it."
The women said photographers dashed to follow the ambulance.
"The paparazzi were running towards our bus saying 'go go go'," Ms Battaglia said.
"They got in a car and took off driving erratically, chasing the ambulance," she said.
"I couldn't believe what was going on. It was surreal."
As their bus then left the scene the driver paused to speak to a local woman who sells maps to the stars' houses.
"She was crying on the phone and bus driver stopped and said "Mary, what's going on? Is it him?" Ms Wilson said.
"She was wailing and crying but she couldn't talk, she just said "Yes, it's him. It's Michael."
Yesterday the two women were feeling flat after their brush with celebrity death.
"Today we're a bit sad about the whole thing," Ms Wilson said.
So the GO GO GO was said to the starline tourist bus
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/aussie-tourists-witness-michael-jacksons-final-los-angeles-moments/story-fna7dq6e-1225741660779
If you research EMS 9, you will have the answers...........it comes from UCLA
It arrived on the scene with sirens on, and blocked the traffice...........
This was earlier in the day.....so *the question is "What was so important that day and who were they transporting TO Carolwood dve ???????????????
Post by: scorpionchik on November 22, 2011, 05:41:00 PM
speaking of number plates - here is another puzzle for you. I have been thinking of highlighting this for a long time (7 months), but the powers that be would not let me...I have now gone against them, and can tell you, if you decipher this clue you will find Mr Jackson, it was left in by mistake by NPG. I cannot say any more. You will soon find out why he is where he is. Some of you already know, without realising it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aysbUMVVihw#t=336s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_California
Dan
Ok... The Romanian log is interesting but not in English so I will leave that to others. I'm not sure what you are trying to say concerning the Wiki link & plates, but I find the video interesting for two reasons.
1. Starting @ time sig 5:15 time listed is 12:27 Ambo arrived. We see the Firetruck 71 with cones on the ground, LIGHTS FLASHING as well as a Red Police Car also with LIGHTS FLASHING looking like it 's parked in front of the Fire Truck, right side, at an angle... I can't see the number on the window.
2. Then at time sig 6:38 we see the Fire Truck with NO FLASHING LIGHTS, & EMS 9 with NO FLASHING LIGHTS parked toward the BACK of the firetruck along with the Red car. Is this the same Red Police/EMS car?
If so Why was it moved???
I swore to myself I wouldn't post agaIn, but I must have been too vague - let me spell it out foR you, you arE getting very cLose, but trAce the red car (not the ems car) parked in froNt of the resiDence and you will have cracked it. I did this 7 months ago, and have been sworn not to reveal what I found, but it's just too hard. For those who want to wait, fine. For those who want to understand, just do it. For those who want to judge me, do the research then judge me. I don't mind I haven't got an agenda other than the truth, I just cannot hand it to you for legal reasons, however I can point you to clues that are in the PUBLIC domain. This has to be my last post, hope you'll understand, you can take it from here.
Dan (PS this is obviously NOT my real name - no need to worry about it, I just need to protect myself)
I have not seen red police car in LA, nor in this ambulance scene video before. Was it there always? I don't recall. Red police car caught my attention, those are usually black & white or blue & white.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 22, 2011, 05:43:26 PM
This is so depressing, may I cry :cry: :cry: :cry: ??
The more we study the ambulance videos the more depressing it is. Ben said we can see for a second the stretcher and he's right, I mean I think I see it in his video, just very very short, but to me there's definetly SOMETHING on it. I mean doesn't seem to be empty.
In all honesty, I am scared that this thread could actually prove that MJ died that day.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 22, 2011, 05:49:30 PM
Post by: scorpionchik on November 22, 2011, 05:58:34 PM
speaking of number plates - here is another puzzle for you. I have been thinking of highlighting this for a long time (7 months), but the powers that be would not let me...I have now gone against them, and can tell you, if you decipher this clue you will find Mr Jackson, it was left in by mistake by NPG. I cannot say any more. You will soon find out why he is where he is. Some of you already know, without realising it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aysbUMVVihw#t=336s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_California
Dan
Ok... The Romanian log is interesting but not in English so I will leave that to others. I'm not sure what you are trying to say concerning the Wiki link & plates, but I find the video interesting for two reasons.
1. Starting @ time sig 5:15 time listed is 12:27 Ambo arrived. We see the Firetruck 71 with cones on the ground, LIGHTS FLASHING as well as a Red Police Car also with LIGHTS FLASHING looking like it 's parked in front of the Fire Truck, right side, at an angle... I can't see the number on the window.
2. Then at time sig 6:38 we see the Fire Truck with NO FLASHING LIGHTS, & EMS 9 with NO FLASHING LIGHTS parked toward the BACK of the firetruck along with the Red car. Is this the same Red Police/EMS car?
If so Why was it moved???
I swore to myself I wouldn't post agaIn, but I must have been too vague - let me spell it out foR you, you arE getting very cLose, but trAce the red car (not the ems car) parked in froNt of the resiDence and you will have cracked it. I did this 7 months ago, and have been sworn not to reveal what I found, but it's just too hard. For those who want to wait, fine. For those who want to understand, just do it. For those who want to judge me, do the research then judge me. I don't mind I haven't got an agenda other than the truth, I just cannot hand it to you for legal reasons, however I can point you to clues that are in the PUBLIC domain. This has to be my last post, hope you'll understand, you can take it from here.
Dan (PS this is obviously NOT my real name - no need to worry about it, I just need to protect myself)
I have not seen red police car in LA, nor in this ambulance scene video before. Was it there always? I don't recall. Red police car caught my attention, those are usually black & white or blue & white.
Never mind, as I said, the red vehicle is NOT a police car, it has EMS 9 on the window, that means Emergency Mediacl Services student run EMS services part of UCPD, UCLA EMS provides 9-1-1 emergency medical response to the UCLA campus.
I am lately busy, so not following closely to all posts. Don't judge. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_EMS
Post by: Suzy7 on November 22, 2011, 06:04:46 PM
Post by: applehead250609 on November 22, 2011, 06:20:06 PM
This thread has become so confusing.
It's CONFUSING,because that's the way it should be ,lol lolol/!!!! Didn't you realised till now lolol/???
Post by: Elsa on November 22, 2011, 06:20:25 PM
I wake up to the sound of music
...
Let it be
http://artists.letssingit.com/the-beatles-lyrics-let-it-be-5dp9dj3 (http://artists.letssingit.com/the-beatles-lyrics-let-it-be-5dp9dj3)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 22, 2011, 06:24:59 PM
@applehead are you sure because I watched again and to me it looks like in both hollywood tv and Ben's video the persons assisting the ambulance while it backs out and the fat bodyguard are doing the exact same things at the same times. I have to look again but for the moment this is what I see.
Gina have you even paing attention to the video DAN gave us???? Did you even bother too look and compare,or you are just jumping like a kid,up and down,lol lolol/????
I am very serious about it applehead,I believe they both shooted the same scenes at the same time. I compared some sequences in the 2 videos and they are exactly the same.
And I don't appreciate your condescending tone.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 22, 2011, 06:29:03 PM
Of course what I do not know is if the hollywoodtv video was taken by their stuff or they bought it later from ...let's say Ben.
Post by: Wednesday on November 22, 2011, 07:11:00 PM
Apparently, earlier in the day, before the video was taken, there was an EMS 9 at the scene....and there's was no-one in the car, and the car was blocking the road....
This is a one way street...It comes from a blog post from Romania, fantastic may I add, but because of the new forum etc, this information has been forgotton and overlooked..
This is the site.....alot of great information here......http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/ambulanta
Also, the serial numbers of the emergency vehicles, dont match the ones at Carolwood that day !!
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=21319.0;attach=2263;image)
Los Angeles Fire Department Emergency Medical Services Supervisor Sedan
(http://lafd.rcomcreative.com/images/stories/fire/ems-sedan.jpg)
EMS Supervisor's SUV - in the Los Angeles Fire Department, EMS Captain's play a critical role in serious rescue or medical related situations. An example of such an incident would be a Multiple Casualty Incident, or MCI. All EMS resources within a given area report indirectly to the respective EMS Captain, although primary responsibility remains with the individual company commanders (at each Fire Station). In today's complex and challenging financial situation, EMS Captains have been given a much wider responsibility, often covering three or four Battalions. It's more work with fewer resources, but the public's safety remains the department's singular priority. Due to budget restraints, there are currently two EMS supervisors in each Division of the City of Los Angeles.
The photo above shows EMS 11 parked on a side street during a metal yard major emergency fire in South Los Angeles.
http://lafd.org/apparatus/110-ems-resources/292-ems-supervisor (http://lafd.org/apparatus/110-ems-resources/292-ems-supervisor)
Los Angeles Fire Department EMS 9
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/ems9.png)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bravo457emergencyvehiclephotos/6227979754/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bravo457emergencyvehiclephotos/6227979754/)
Ambulance Emergency Response Vehicle
An ambulance emergency response vehicle is a vehicle operated by an emergency medical service to respond to medical emergencies either in addition to, or in place of, an ambulance capable of transporting patients.
They can also be known as a fly car, echo unit, rapid response vehicle (RRV), quick response vehicle (QRV), quick response service (QRS), emergency response unit (ERU), medic-car, paramedic chase car, fast response unit (FRU), tango unit or simply an ambulance car (PRU) Paramedic Response Unit.
Emergency response vehicles can be used to reach a scene more quickly than a standard ambulance, as they may be able to move through traffic with greater ease, or travel at greater speed, to bring additional or more skilled resource to a scene, or to simply to avoid sending too much resource to medical problems that do not require it.
The vehicle may be a production car (often a station wagon or SUV as they have greater carrying capacity) which is provided and manned by an emergency medical service organization in order to provide transport to their staff. The fly-car enables the crew (often a lone responder) to bring their equipment quickly to the scene of an emergency, and may carry most of the same equipment as a full size ambulance, although it is likely to be limited in its capacity to transport patients.
Other uses for fly cars include work as a "supervisor" vehicle where an officer or supervisor responds to various calls but does not ride on the ambulance to the hospital. This principle especially applies where the fly-car is crewed by a paramedic, who can assist lower qualified staff, such as emergency medical technicians on an ambulance, meaning fewer people at the higher qualification level are required. However, dependent on the jurisdiction and needs of the individual service, any level of emergency medical provider from first responder to doctor can be found on fly-cars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-car (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-car)
Post by: applehead250609 on November 22, 2011, 07:15:27 PM
Post by: applehead250609 on November 22, 2011, 07:35:42 PM
Post by: paula-c on November 22, 2011, 07:44:03 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIP2Bpgwds&feature=player_embedded#at=13[/youtube]
Off-topic videos "white tiger" published by TS, reminds me this photo of Paris
(http://iamboigenius.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Paris-Jackson-Chris-Brown-10.jpg)
Post by: fordtocarr on November 22, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
Aussie tourists witness Michael Jackson's final Los Angeles moments
by: James Campbell June 28, 2009
TWO Australian women on a bus tour of Hollywood stars' houses have told of the chaotic scenes as they accidentally witnessed the King of Pop's final exit from his Los Angeles home.
Melbourne woman Sally Wilson of North Fitzroy and her friend Helen Battaglia of Alfred Cove, in Perth, were on a Starlight bus tour when their driver decided to show them Michael Jackson's mansion.
"We turned into where Michael Jackson's been staying and as we came round the corner we saw a fire truck."
"The driver said 'Oh there's a fire truck here, there's a bit happening'."
Ms Wilson said the bus pulled up in front of the gates of the mansion while photographers milled around the entrance.
RIGHT NOW, I'M THINKING, HOW LONG HAD THIS AMBULANCE BEEN THERE...BECAUSE THERE WERE ALREADY PAPARAZZI'S THERE...(OR WAS THERE A LEAK TO THEM...or were they MICHAEL'S PHOTOGRAPHERS because we haven't seen any pics from all these other paparazzis...)
"All of a sudden the gates open and out came the ambulance while paparazzi were all running and banging and trying to take photos in the back of the ambulance," Ms Wilson said.
They managed to capture the historic moment with photographs that show Jackson's body being taken from his home as his minders try to keep the paparazzi at bay.
Ms Battaglia said the scene became chaotic as Jackson's staff fought to block the paparazzi from grabbing final pictures of the dying star.
]NOW I'M THINKING (TYPING CAPS CUZ I DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE COLORS ON THIS QUICK REPLY...FOR MY COMMENTS)ON THIS DATE OF THE ARTICLE...HOW'D ANYONE, THESE AUSTRALIAN WOMEN OR THE WRITER OF THE ARTICLE KNOW THAT THE FINAL PICTURES OF MICHAEL DYING WERE CAPTURED??? HOW'D ANYONE KNOW THEY'D BECOME THE LAST PICS OF HIM ALIVE?
Ms Wilson said passengers on the bus had no idea what they were witnessing.
"It was all happening. We weren't sure who was in the car at that stage," she said.
"They were just yelling out and then the ambulance took off and two black SUVs came out of the driveway and followed it."
The women said photographers dashed to follow the ambulance.
"The paparazzi were running towards our bus saying 'go go go'," Ms Battaglia said.
"They got in a car and took off driving erratically, chasing the ambulance," she said.
"I couldn't believe what was going on. It was surreal."
As their bus then left the scene the driver paused to speak to a local woman who sells maps to the stars' houses.
"She was crying on the phone and bus driver stopped and said "Mary, what's going on? Is it him?" Ms Wilson said.
"She was wailing and crying but she couldn't talk, she just said "Yes, it's him. It's Michael."
OKAY, HOW'D THIS MARY KNOW IT WAS MICHAEL, AND NO ONE ELSE DID? WASN'T SHE ON THE CORNER, NOT INSIDE THE HOUSE LOADING WHOEVER INTO THE AMBULANCE?
Yesterday the two women were feeling flat after their brush with celebrity death.
"Today we're a bit sad about the whole thing," Ms Wilson said.
So the GO GO GO was said to the starline tourist bus
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/aussie-tourists-witness-michael-jacksons-final-los-angeles-moments/story-fna7dq6e-1225741660779
If you research EMS 9, you will have the answers...........it comes from UCLA
It arrived on the scene with sirens on, and blocked the traffice...........
This was earlier in the day.....so *the question is "What was so important that day and who were they transporting TO Carolwood dve ???????????????
I THINK THIS WAS THE STORY INITIALLY LEAKED TO THE MEDIA FROM TEAM MICHAEL TO COLLABORATE WHAT "HAPPENED" THERE THAT DAY.
HAVE WE SEEN THESE WOMEN? AND IF WE DID, WHO'S TO SAY THEY WERE ON THAT BUS. ALSO, IF I'M ON A TOUR BUS OF CELEBRITIES, YOU'D BETTER BELIEVE I'D BE TAKING PICS OF THE HOMES...AND IF I CAME UPON MICHAEL JACKSON'S WITH AN AMBULANCE, I'D TAKE THEM FOR SURE, EVEN ON MY CELL IF I HAD TO. I can't believe a bus full of Celeb stalkers and no one got a pic the whole time they sat there??? No one else granted an interview???
To me this is a leaked story.
Post by: MissG on November 22, 2011, 08:14:42 PM
Ambulance shop number is 11803. How many ambulances with the same shop number circulates around?
The shop number is a way to control the ambulance services i.e.
This one is number 71, the one used for Michael Jackson
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgeKdncUiym623qy7seTOeA0xnLWYAyTubD8aMKf0GqrBWCaCwRw)
And this one for Zsa Zsa Gabor. Seems to be the same as Michaels
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2010/11/12/1112-zsa-zsa-ex-tmz-01.jpg)
Then we have another ambulance from LA Fire Department. This photo is genuine since it does not come from any media site.
(http://www.emergencyrigs.net/users%5C8%5C1280_0007251.jpg)
From here on, I will start comparing pics AGAIN :lol:.
There are many pics out there that are different between themselves. I know very little about car models, but this ambo seems to be called a Ford E450 (not sure if type I,II or III or about the year)
Why I am pointing to this now is because I, for example, thought about the scenario of this situation (pics taken) happening in the past (1999 or 2005 i.e) and not necesarely in 2009.
If the ambo is a modern model ( a 2008/9 model) then we can eliminate the previous 2009 "death" circus at Carolwood.
geek/
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 22, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
http://map.ais.ucla.edu/go/Emergency-Medical-Services
UCLA Emergency Medical Services is a student operated program that provides 9-1-1 ambulance coverage for the campus and surrounding community, 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year. EMS-1, our primary campus ambulance, is a basic life support unit that responds to more than 1,200 medical aid calls each year.
History
In 1979, UCLA established its own Emergency Medical Services (EMS) as a response to the ever-growing campus and its increased demand for emergency medical care. Initially, UCLA Police Officers responded back to the police station, jumped in the ambulance and responded to medical aid calls. In the early 1980s, student employees started staffing the ambulance. Since that time, UCLA EMS has since grown into one of the most respected basic life support providing primary response programs in the country.
Special Events
UCLA EMS also staffs special events that come to the UCLA campus. Notable past events have included the 1984 Olympics, Mardi Gras and Special Olympics. Recurring events include UCLA Basketball games in Pauley Pavilion, intramural sports events, Commencements, LA Times Festival of Books and Countrywide Cup Tennis tournament.
This particular EMS 9, comes from UCLA hospital......
But the reason this is really suspicious, is if they were first to arrive and had sirens on, why aren't we hearing from whoever was in the EMS car??
The only paramedics that testified and were there on the scene, are Seneff and Blount from Amb. # 71..
Why did this EMS 9 arrive first on the scene, was seen with lights flashing, blocking the road, and had no-one in it ???
What were they doing there, and why did they leave again ?? Obviously no-body needed help that day.....so they left.....or they actually dropped of someone or something....
Post by: bec on November 22, 2011, 09:42:46 PM
This has turned into a circus of the absurd.
I'm not going to sit here and chase every retarded ambulance theory based on farts in the wind and a vivid, though skewed, sense of imagination.
TS, you said it best once in the past. If an argument or theory presented is irrelevant and by that I mean: doesn't include supportive information or evidence, it will be ignored. Can we reinstate this rules? Else, I fear, the flood gates have opened and there's no going back.
If you are truly working on a deadline, this may be a good solution to the present... challenge.
Post by: MissG on November 22, 2011, 10:24:07 PM
Oh for fucks sake.
This has turned into a circus of the absurd.
I'm not going to sit here and chase every retarded ambulance theory based on farts in the wind and a vivid, though skewed, sense of imagination.
TS, you said it best once in the past. If an argument or theory presented is irrelevant and by that I mean: doesn't include supportive information or evidence, it will be ignored. Can we reinstate this rules? Else, I fear, the flood gates have opened and there's no going back.
If you are truly working on a deadline, this may be a good solution to the present... challenge.
I would report your post, but since it´s coming to a mod and you are one, I rather ask you here to don´t be rude towards people´s theories. Your post is uncalled for and very rude.
No one is asking you to "sit here and chase every retarded ambulance theory", it´s your choice.
Too bad that your expectations are too high and "reatarded theories" are not on your IQ level.
Post by: MissG on November 22, 2011, 10:26:09 PM
Post by: MJonmind on November 22, 2011, 10:30:50 PM
Paula, good connection of TS's 3 video links (White tiger) and Paris' T-shirt of a white tiger. That can't be an accident. I still find it confusing though how important TS finds them, if all he wants them for is for us to debunk them. :?
2good2btrue
Quote
If you research EMS 9, you will have the answers...........it comes from UCLA
It arrived on the scene with sirens on, and blocked the traffice...........
This was earlier in the day.....so *the question is "What was so important that day and who were they transporting TO Carolwood dve ???????????????
A dead body? fresse/
Applehead, now how's TS going to wrap things up by the 29th if you keep on throwing in monkeywrenches? :lol: /pull hair/ Keep on doing it though, just in case we need to abandon ship. (Just kidding!)
That video that "Dan" posted, I still don't get why Ireland, why not Bahrain, or LA.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vVfW3pOxHRY/S8PdT22l03I/AAAAAAAAAZE/krNHJ8ICCy8/s1600/11+-+Jermaine+-+T-Shirt+Bahrain+et+Ireland.jpg)
In the main ambulance video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxkjpnLhQJ4&feature=related) the guy says, "Achh Linda. Comon Linda. Move on Linda. Move on Linda. Comon Linda."
In the TMZ video by Tourbus fans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUxX0fEQU5Q&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUxX0fEQU5Q&feature=related) the guide clearly asks, "Miss Brenda."
In the testimony of the 2 Australians posted by 2good2btrue, they call the star maps lady, "Mary" (likely mistake, discredits her story).
The interview is only of Linda. So who is it? Maybe there's 2 ladies that do the maps together?
I think there could be just 1 tourbus, it first stops almost fully ahead of of the firetruck where we see the orange cones put out, but then I think it may back up as security guards tells them to clear the area, where they then sit parallel to the firetruck on its left and a parked vehicle on its close right. There is still room for cars to go in between, chasing after the leaving ambulance, which they do as well, finally talking to Star Maps Brenda (or Linda?).
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/tourbus2.jpg)(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/tourbus4.jpg)
These 2 drivers look to be the same, both short black hair, white t-shirt. But it's hard to match up the other passengers.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/tourbusdriver1.jpg)(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/tourbusdriver2.jpg)
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 22, 2011, 10:41:18 PM
Oh for *bleep* sake.
This has turned into a circus of the absurd.
I'm not going to sit here and chase every retarded ambulance theory based on farts in the wind and a vivid, though skewed, sense of imagination.
TS, you said it best once in the past. If an argument or theory presented is irrelevant and by that I mean: doesn't include supportive information or evidence, it will be ignored. Can we reinstate this rules? Else, I fear, the flood gates have opened and there's no going back.
If you are truly working on a deadline, this may be a good solution to the present... challenge.
I've been reading this thread for the last three days and waiting for someone to say this. (http://www.myemoticons.com/images/emotions/happy/roll.gif)
(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/work-school/civil/ambulance.gif)
Post by: bec on November 22, 2011, 10:46:18 PM
I do not have any respect for half-brained, half-assed "theories". No one gets an A for effort in the real world and I do not agree that pure participation in any form is helpful. All things are not created equal and to suggest such is to trivialize the efforts of a lot of really good, really smart, really dedicated individuals... who have all largely abandoned this thread as of recent. They, obviously, can bite their tongue much better then I but you won't convince me for one second that they don't feel exactly as I do.
Now I'll get a thousand whiny replies about how I'm intimidating others out of posting which is utter nonsense. Those replies that I invariably get are attempts to manipulate me into smiling and nodding at every bullshit crack pot post that we have to suffer through while it reduces our real estate value. Now if this little rant causes someone to pause and THINK before hitting reply now, and going back to check that they have a legitimate theory, or real evidence before wasting everyone's time again, then great. I say go TEAM.
Post by: Andrea on November 22, 2011, 10:46:42 PM
...
That video that "Dan" posted, I still don't get why Ireland, why not Bahrain, or LA.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vVfW3pOxHRY/S8PdT22l03I/AAAAAAAAAZE/krNHJ8ICCy8/s1600/11+-+Jermaine+-+T-Shirt+Bahrain+et+Ireland.jpg)
...
DAN...DNA...Jermaine!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: MJonmind on November 22, 2011, 10:49:01 PM
While the cats away the mice will play.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 22, 2011, 11:35:48 PM
Post by: bec on November 22, 2011, 11:39:29 PM
Btw, Miss G, records can be falsified and altered so
Ambulances and their services can be tracked down. If more than one ambulance was @Carolwood that day it´s possible to know when, what time and what for.that's really not the case, but for what it's worth, ambulance to Carrolwood on 6/25/09 wasn't on the ticker for LAFD/LAPD. Can't prove it, I had access to the info too long ago, before I knew you had to archive such things- but I can attest to it, for what that's worth (nothing). There was no "official record" at all for any emergency vehicle at Carrolwood that day. I suppose it could be searched n verified, but surely by now they would have edited and created the appropriate records to legitimize everything after the fact.
You have to look at the information and make an informed and educated decision on what's the likely truth... not imagine every possible elaborate scenario to wiggle through any loophole in an attempt to satisfy beyond any doubt. Life is full of doubts and few certainties. Proof and truth are liquid terms.
If I walk into a room and see my dog laying in a pile of pillow fluff with a piece of pillow case hanging out of his mouth, I don't need to conjure up every potential explanation of what could have transpired to result in these same circumstances before me... I know he shredded my pillow. I know this because he has a tendency to like the fluff and I know this because I haven't walked him in 3 days (lazy azzzzzzss).
Post by: wishingstar on November 23, 2011, 12:11:21 AM
OK....another major slip up......
You all probably all hear Linda saying "Michael better be alright..."...then Ben says..."Come on Linda, Come on Linda and then laughs at her..........
BUT, as soon as the ambulance takes off.. in the tourist video....LINDA is standing at the corner at her usually post, and is on the phone......HOW DID she get there so fast............????????
And how was she on the phone and crying when he was just being brought to the hospital ???
OMGosh 2good.....
Did you read my mind or something? I was thinking that late last night, after I went to bed, the thought of just this passed by me. LOL...great minds......crazy timing with all this for sure. I seriously doubt there were two Lindas there that day..not a common name really.
And yes, Adi...the voice that says, ".....ah come on Linda...." is comic sounding in nature......almost in a Jackie Gleason, Honeymooners way (if anyone knows what I am talking about, lol... I am not old enough to have watched, I just love older TV shows)
Great thought 2Good......thanks for posting : ) BTW......how do you know it's Ben? Did I miss something?
Blessings Always
Did she ever give interview or spoke about that day? What info do we have about Linda to find her? The only Sharon who was at HLN speaking about June25 th said she was there too......
This is one article I know of:
http://www.tmz.com/2011/09/11/michael-jackson-death-home-goes-after-star-map-peddler-property-carolwood-house/#.TsyFemDK1Rk
I think there is another article, I will try to find it...
I would like to say....I think this thread has become interesting.......am I the only one, LOL. No offense intended........I was always the kid who colored the background, and not the main picture. I always seem to go against the grain of interest or all reasonable logic.
From the start I have stated that the ambulance video was one of the primary aspects that got me "thinking" things are not right. I have watched these videos relentlessly and my mind is truly mush. My eyes hurt, my head spins, yet I still search for the inevitable truth that lies within. To me these ambulance videos/pictures are like a gigantic picture puzzle of sorts. I once mentioned Mind's Eye pictures.....it's like those with all the other classic picture puzzle motifs. There is something there, yet I can't focus. Am I just not capable....no, just tired most times I am on here. I feel several topics are being revisited...some of which I visited in depth long ago. By far things related to the ambulance are a favorite. So.....thank you to everyone who have posted so much. Several videos have now been re-found....I couldn't find some of these for the life of me. I had seen most all...including the White Tiger ones...I just didn't save them, or couldn't do a proper search. I appreciate all the posts...TS, you too...thank you. The videos are all interesting and really get me thinking in all directions.
Blessings to you all..............
Post by: MJonmind on November 23, 2011, 12:59:33 AM
Bec, I'm not a fighter at all, and I've always appreciated your insights and strengths. But are you calling us all this? This is pretty hurtful. Are just you, Snoopy71 and Suzy7 now on the smart team? :? I mean no disrespect by saying this.
Quote
I do not have any respect for half-brained, half-assed "theories". No one gets an A for effort in the real world and I do not agree that pure participation in any form is helpful. All things are not created equal and to suggest such is to trivialize the efforts of a lot of really good, really smart, really dedicated individuals... who have all largely abandoned this thread as of recent.
TS
Quote
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked. Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.
8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
It seems to me that debunking more than one ambulance relates to other things such as more than one tourbus which I tried to debunk. These extra details are what give the whole scenario its realism. I'm sure that ALL this was discussed ages ago, but wading through thousands of pages... bangbang and with my memory geek/ .
Sorry TS. Hope your day is going great though!
Post by: Wednesday on November 23, 2011, 02:22:09 AM
Michaels voice "I want them to say Ive never seen anything like this before...GO GO...
http://map.ais.ucla.edu/go/Emergency-Medical-Services
UCLA Emergency Medical Services is a student operated program that provides 9-1-1 ambulance coverage for the campus and surrounding community, 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year. EMS-1, our primary campus ambulance, is a basic life support unit that responds to more than 1,200 medical aid calls each year.
This particular EMS 9, comes from UCLA hospital......
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=21319.0;attach=2295;image)
This is not a vehicle from UCLA's EMS. Thier ambulances are white and blue so IDK for sure but if they had a fly-car/supervisor vehicle, my guess is it might be white and/or blue or at least have the UCLA EMS logo on it. I haven't found anything about a fly-car/supervisor's vehicle for UCLA EMS though.
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/UCLAEMS.png)
http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/UCLA_EMSPhotoGallery.pdf (http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/UCLA_EMSPhotoGallery.pdf)
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/UCLAEMS2.png)
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/UCLAEMS3.png)
Organization
UCLA Emergency Medical Services is a division of the Police Community Services section of the UCLA Police Department, along with Crime Prevention and CSO Programs. UCLA EMS operates under a team management system. "Team Management" consists of the EMS Manager, Medical Director, Supervisors and Coordinators, and Team Representative - it meets monthly to discuss organizational and operational issues.
Vehicles and Equipment
UCLA EMS currently owns one Chevy type III ambulance from Wheeled Coach and two Type II Ford ambulances outfitted by Leader Industries in El Monte, CA. It also has an electric cart for special events, specially outfitted to accommodate a gurney and other medical equipment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Los_Angeles_Emergency_Medical_Services (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Los_Angeles_Emergency_Medical_Services)
EMS Captains
Each battalion is assigned a single EMS District Captain who's job it is to oversee the EMS program and procedures within his district. They coordinate and handle all inspections of EMS apparatus, equipment and supplies, handle the in-service training, evaluate personnel, act as a liaison to hospital staff, and respond to all emergencies requiring medical supervision. The program was created after it became clear that there was a deficiency in having non-paramedic trained captains in supervisory roles over the paramedics without anyone of rank who understands the procedures and protocols outlined by the county and department to act as an overseer district wide or on an incident. Typical responses will be to all incidents in which 3 or more BLS rescue ambulances are assigned, or 2 or more paramedic rescue ambulances. They will also respond to all fires, physical rescue assignments, shootings and incidents involving Law Enforcement that require EMS. Their function is as medical unit leader to the incident commander and will typically keep track of who is being transported and to where, what aid is being given, notifying the incident commander (IC) if more ambulances are needed, and acting as a staging officer for the ambulances. They will also respond to most Air Ambulance calls for documentation, evaluation and supervision. Think of them as similar to a Battalion Chief but on the EMS side. While a BC is a firefighter, he isn't going to be the one with the hose running into a building. Same with the EMS Captain treating patients, they are there to oversee an incident.
Vehicles
LAFD EMS Captains drive white over red color Ford Crown Victorias with MX7000 lightbars with two rear amber flashers and wig wag headlights. Standard siren is the fed sig touchmaster or smart siren.
There are more photos of these cars on the site: http://forum.emergency-planet.com/index.php?/topic/7398-a-guide-to-the-lafd-and-assisting-agencies/ (http://forum.emergency-planet.com/index.php?/topic/7398-a-guide-to-the-lafd-and-assisting-agencies/)
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/EMS10.png)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikesphotos_us/3369168030/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mikesphotos_us/3369168030/in/photostream/)
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/ems9o.png)
As for numbering the LAFD vehicles, would there be both a Car and an SUV with the same numbers "EMS 9"? Because we see this "EMS 9" on the car in Ben Evanstad's video and the previously posted LAFD SUV. I don't know the answer to that.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 23, 2011, 02:53:40 AM
LAFD EMS Captains drive white over red color Ford Crown Victorias with MX7000 lightbars with two rear amber flashers and wig wag headlights. Standard siren is the fed sig touchmaster or smart siren. /bravo/ /bravo/ /bravo/
Good find......So my question is "Why was there an EMS captain on the scene that day....and you can clearly see that the EMS car is empty....so whoever drove it there, would be inside the house.
But this has never been talked about, or why wasnt this person put on the stand ?????
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 23, 2011, 02:56:03 AM
Post by: Wednesday on November 23, 2011, 02:57:21 AM
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/logo2.png)
Any ideas or am I simply mistaken?
Post by: applehead250609 on November 23, 2011, 03:35:21 AM
Post by: Adi on November 23, 2011, 03:38:18 AM
Was there something I missed ages and ages ago about this vehicle?
Weird it seems only to have been brought up now (or maybe that's just how it seems to me).
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 23, 2011, 03:39:51 AM
TS, here ya go:
(http://www.chinohills.com/images/articles/105/lrg/old-computers.gif)
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 23, 2011, 03:40:15 AM
(http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=1376646&t=o) (http://gifsoup.com/view/1376646/cat-chasing-its-tail.html)
i know that i dont post amazing break throughs on this forum yet, (give me time tho :lol:) but i believe that splitting hairs over minor things including some hypertheticals is not nessesary. this thread is going around in circles. TS has said on more than one occasion:
As I have said already, the minor details on the “how’s” are not very important (and may never been fully understood); however, for more than one reason, the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved.
in addition to this, i thought that 2 days ago a general consensus was established about there only being one ambulance, (which is also all that TS asked us to review) and the reasons why / proof was posted by souza, bec and one or two others. but we continue going around and around in circles about things and the posts that are being preserved for TS as an answer (from us as a group) are getting lost amongst all the discussion on hypertheticals...
sorry if this post annoys anyone. i honeslty dont mean it to be. but its just how i feel. i am trying to follow as best as i can and its becoming more and more convoluted and i am not sure that it is entirely nessesary. (not judging here, just saying i am unsure we need to do disect it this agressively, but i dont know, as i am relatively new here.)
im confused!
(http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=39228&t=o) (http://gifsoup.com/view/39228/pug-head-tilt.html)
Looking forward to some light from TS and definitely looking forward to leaving behind 7a and moving on to 7b...
a happy reminder to us all that TS did say that once 7a is explained / known, the rest will fall into place relatively easy (not verbatim)
so something for us all to look forward to!
party/
Post by: Wednesday on November 23, 2011, 03:52:30 AM
Wednesday/SD: still no PM from you. I am waiting but I am not very patient anymore. Your choice here.
I disagreed with you going to the media as a representative of the hoax community, you banned me from the old forum for it. I feel just as wronged by you as you seem to feel by me. I was not sneaky by joining with a new screen name as my old screen name is already used on the forum. I didn't post my blog posting about the ip address on the old forum, which was obvious by the ip address of guest that did and I have no idea whom that person was.
I did not attack TS, I posted information about an ip address that a MJHDI chat room user with the screen name "TS" had. I posted the origins of TIAI as being a satirical article posted on the Huffington Post and then researched those involved with the article and the newspaper itself. I waver on what I personally think of TS as I am not sure about them as they have never revealed whom they are.
TIAI Revealed, Part 1: Who Is Behind TIAI?
TS said: Although many have taken http://www.ThisIsAlsoIt.com (TIAI) seriously—and thought that either Michael Jackson himself or someone from the MJ camp is behind the TIAI redirects—yet many others have assumed that TIAI is merely someone playing with the feelings of MJ fans.
I am not asking anyone to believe what I say based upon my claim of where it came from; rather, I am asking you to let the evidence speak for itself.
But TS never stated he/she was MJ or someone from MJ's camp.
What he/she did say was this...
TS: I am not going to say right now how I got this information; many would not believe me if I told you. But I will reveal this when the time is right.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=1924.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=1924.0)
So this does not mean that TS is Michael, Marlon, or ever a member of the MJ camp. TS could be someone who was contacted in some way by Michael or a member of the camp but they could also be Michael, Marlon, or a member of the MJ camp. Everyone is entitled to assume and speculate just as I am entitled to my own beliefs on the matter.
Before TS wrote the "TIAI Revealed" posts, I was accused of being TS and being behind TIAI. Prior to being banned, TS had redirected to 2 of my posts, linked to at least 3 of my posts in an update and mentioned me personally in another update. I was an active participant on the previous version of this forum and on the old MJHD before it was closed down. I believe Michael Jackson is alive but I don't believe some things that others do and others don't believe everything I do. We are all different people, with different life experiences, of different ages, different educational, religious, political, nationalities etc. You can not make all of us agree with one another on every subject.
A forum is a medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged but that doesn't mean that the ideas will all be in agreement. If you only allow those whom agree with one view then you are thinking only within that box; only allowing ideas that confirm your already held beliefs.
You want me to apologize but I can't because I don't believe that I did anything wrong and any apology from that perspective would be totally insincere. I am an honest person, sometimes brutally and I am aware of that; it is who I am. I will not even be dishonest to be a part of this forum, I just can't do it. I have not answered you previously because there is no point in opening up old wounds or continuing to argue after months of my absence from the forum.
You, are of course free to do whatever you choose though I would hope that it isn't a ban because I am not troll and never have been. I was devastated to be banned and cut off from the rest of the members that I had built friendships with and was left feeling alone with what I know and have discovered but I am not going to beg to be allowed to participate on the forum. I do have both an interest in Michael Jackson's hoax and the members of this forum and I also do have relevant information and ideas to share.
Peace and unity are achieved when we learn to be tolerant of those whom we don't always agree with.
Post by: TS_comments on November 23, 2011, 04:00:21 AM
I’m going to make a few closing comments regarding 7a, and then I will post 7b introduction as soon as I have it ready (it will be a new redirect, but not a new thread).
One of the alleged shadow differences (not mentioned yet in this thread) was a shadow to the right of the person in the shot through the gate, while the shadows were to the left of the person when the ambulance was backing out. This one is rather simple: in the shot through the gate, the shadow to the right is not the shadow of the person; it is the shadow of the stretcher (but it’s hard to see, because it’s white against white).
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Level%207/Shadow.jpg)
The question has been asked, why we don’t have any pictures from the tour bus—surely someone on the tour bus had a camera and took pictures, right? The fact is that we DO have VIDEO from the bus. Most likely other pictures were taken, but not everyone who takes pictures puts them on the internet—especially since there are already TWO whole VIDEOS of the situation, so why bother posting a still picture? If it were the other way around: and there were still pictures on the internet, but no video—surely someone here would ask why there is no VIDEO from the tour bus? Surely in this day and age, at least one person on that tour bus would have a video camera, right??
Another factor that I want to clear up, for those who have no experience in multi-camera live filming and post production, is a concept known as time code {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMPTE_timecode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMPTE_timecode)}. Without time code, two cameras will drift in time and not stay aligned during recording and/or playback. We can be quite sure that the tour bus video was not time code synchronized with any of NPG’s cameras; therefore, even if you align both videos at one point in time, you should EXPECT that the videos will not stay perfectly aligned.
For Applehead: I already posted the following, but I guess you missed it. The camera farther right is at an angle which makes the gate look fully opened; the camera farther left is at an angle where you can see some of the gate (and therefore it looks partly closed).
For the green screen theory: notice in the video posted that the green screen fills in the BACKGROUND, while the foreground is real life in three dimensions (although sometimes in a physical studio). So if these ambulance videos were green screened, then what is background and what is real? And what would be the purpose for that, when you can do it all in real life and not worry about anyone noticing that NOTHING happened at Carolwood on 6-25-09?
Last but not least (let’s do it one more time): why, oh why, would there NEED to be multiple takes of the video at Carolwood? That would be extremely risky, for no benefit whatsoever; not to mention the extra time and money wasted. When Ben said “… that day and the other d[ay]”—he was not referring to a full blown practice run at Carolwood; instead, he was referring to staging the still photo (which would not even need to be done at Carolwood, so nobody would ask what’s going on).
The only thing I have seen which even attempts to answer the “why”, is “rehearsal”. Rehearsal??? What is the PURPOSE for practice? So that you don’t make mistakes! Now what mistakes were they worried about, which caused them to need a practice run? Were they worried about running over one of the photographers, with the ambulance? If so, then a practice run would give them TWO chances to accidently run someone over, instead of just one chance. Nobody was singing a song by memory, and nobody was dancing to choreography; so nothing needed practicing.
In the interest of reducing the confusion on this thread, I am going to ask that we close all discussion on the topic of 7a (not immediately, but as soon as I post 7b); if anyone wants to discuss this further, please post it in the ambulance section of the forum {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?board=38.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?board=38.0)}.
The only exception would be if ALL of the following 3 conditions are met (then you can still post in this thread during 7b or 7c).
#1 Why, oh why …? If your answer is rehearsal, explain what would need to be practiced? What kind of potential mistake would be so devastating, that a highly risky practice run was necessary to ensure that the devastating mistake would not be made during the real thing?
#2 Post at least one screen shot from each of the two videos, and describe specifically what discrepancy you see.
#3 Explain why you think that the differences are not merely: difference in time, difference in angle, and/or difference in camera quality/resolution.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 23, 2011, 04:06:31 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 23, 2011, 04:08:15 AM
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 23, 2011, 04:36:59 AM
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 23, 2011, 04:47:34 AM
#3 Explain why you think that the differences are not merely: difference in time, difference in angle, and/or difference in camera quality/resolution.
Ok....1. I've believe there in a difference in shadows on the pavement at the entrance..
Bens video shows a more shadows of the trees near the entrance,
Then we have the Starline tour bus video, which shows a different shadow on the pavement...more pronounced and distinct....(Maybe the sun changed, but it was supposed to be at the same moment)
IMO..This could suggest a time difference between the two videos...
B. The second photo, again is a comparison of the positions of Ben Evenstad and Chris Weiss, the NPG photographers. This clearly show a discrepency with exactly where they were positioned at the time of the two seperate videos....Once again, could suggest a delay in time, not a camera issue....God bless.
I do have a question though....Who took the distant video of Ben taking the video...???
We do have pictures of the ambulance taking off....so could that be from one of the fans waiting outside on the opposite side of the road.?? Has this been brought up?
Post by: applehead250609 on November 23, 2011, 05:11:33 AM
Applehead, that video is CUT and EDITED into the end and that so called second ambulance is the same ambulance as the first one, when it ARRIVED! Didn't you pay attention at all? There is ZERO evidence for more than one ambulance: ZERO.
TS, here ya go:
(http://www.chinohills.com/images/articles/105/lrg/old-computers.gif)
STERS
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 23, 2011, 05:15:59 AM
#1 Why, oh why …? If your answer is rehearsal, explain what would need to be practiced? What kind of potential mistake would be so devastating, that a highly risky practice run was necessary to ensure that the devastating mistake would not be made during the real thing?
You just say things to say something, which you just confirmed yourself. If you are just posting nonsense just to 'smoke TS out' then I suggest you do that in another thread, instead of annoying and confusing people in here, who are genuinly researching.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 23, 2011, 07:34:53 AM
Souza I suggest you delete all our accounts and let us register again only after the IQ testing crash/.
ps: before you proceed...it's just a joke errrr errrr errrr /overreacting/ /overreacting/ /overreacting/
TS, Can't wait for the next update. The most interesting, as we're going to find out what or who was on that infamous stretcher /white flag/ /white flag/ /white flag/
as about 7a, I think it was very useful, as now we can be almost 100% sure that what ahppend on June 25th was in REAL time, real event (I mean the part with the ambulance).
Post by: BeTheChange on November 23, 2011, 08:17:01 AM
(http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv126/Marston72/Dancing%20Smileys/7cb7bf46.gif)
The explanation for the green-screen makes absolute sense and clearly shows that the events at Carolwood or UCLA were not green-screened. Thanks for slapping that possibility outta me :lol:...I had started to drift lol.
Looking forward to 7b ::P
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: applehead250609 on November 23, 2011, 08:44:54 AM
Applehead, maybe you missed the question TS asked a gazillion times:
#1 Why, oh why …? If your answer is rehearsal, explain what would need to be practiced? What kind of potential mistake would be so devastating, that a highly risky practice run was necessary to ensure that the devastating mistake would not be made during the real thing?
You just say things to say something, which you just confirmed yourself. If you are just posting nonsense just to 'smoke TS out' then I suggest you do that in another thread, instead of annoying and confusing people in here, who are genuinly researching.
Souza what I said YESTERDAY is HONEST, and is what I think.I will not disscuss that again,and that's it.There are difference in time, difference in angle, and/or difference in camera quality/resolution,not just on what happened on 25 june 2009.It's the same with the TRIAL,with the Murray documentary and some old EVENTS that happened .
Now you are trying to accuse me for being AMBIGUOUS and post nonsens here on this topic??? You are trying to BLAME me,and only me,and I'm not goona be THE MAME this time,I'm sorry!!!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVI0A4DTVgg[/youtube]
Have you even look up to this topic that has started for more than 2 F years ? Please look again and then ask yourself who is who,and who is trying to CONfuse people here!!! I'm not the one who INVENTED the ART OF DECEPTION,sorry :cry:.
Like most people here,I came on this forum to find out THE TRUTH,to find out WHY this had to HAPPEN on 25 june 2009!!!I did not came here to talk NONsense and be the PUPPET or the TOY for SOME/one.
It seems to me that our Major Problem nowadays is that WE THINK TOO MUCH,and FEEL to little :( .Michael didn't LOVE Charlie Chaplin for no reason :( .He knows that what Charlie Chaplin said in The Greatest Speech Ever Made is THE TRUTH.
We have lost the way of FEELING because we THINK to much, and we forgot HOW TO LOVE Souza ,that's our BIGGEST problem here,not HOW Michael pulled all this hoax,for God sake,we have to STOP.
The Greatest Speech Ever Made
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WibmcsEGLKo[/youtube]
Post by: applehead250609 on November 23, 2011, 08:55:26 AM
Wednesday/SD: still no PM from you. I am waiting but I am not very patient anymore. Your choice here.
I disagreed with you going to the media as a representative of the hoax community, you banned me from the old forum for it. I feel just as wronged by you as you seem to feel by me. I was not sneaky by joining with a new screen name as my old screen name is already used on the forum. I didn't post my blog posting about the ip address on the old forum, which was obvious by the ip address of guest that did and I have no idea whom that person was.
I did not attack TS, I posted information about an ip address that a MJHDI chat room user with the screen name "TS" had. I posted the origins of TIAI as being a satirical article posted on the Huffington Post and then researched those involved with the article and the newspaper itself. I waver on what I personally think of TS as I am not sure about them as they have never revealed whom they are.
TIAI Revealed, Part 1: Who Is Behind TIAI?
TS said: Although many have taken http://www.ThisIsAlsoIt.com (TIAI) seriously—and thought that either Michael Jackson himself or someone from the MJ camp is behind the TIAI redirects—yet many others have assumed that TIAI is merely someone playing with the feelings of MJ fans.
I am not asking anyone to believe what I say based upon my claim of where it came from; rather, I am asking you to let the evidence speak for itself.
But TS never stated he/she was MJ or someone from MJ's camp.
What he/she did say was this...
TS: I am not going to say right now how I got this information; many would not believe me if I told you. But I will reveal this when the time is right.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=1924.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=1924.0)
So this does not mean that TS is Michael, Marlon, or ever a member of the MJ camp. TS could be someone who was contacted in some way by Michael or a member of the camp but they could also be Michael, Marlon, or a member of the MJ camp. Everyone is entitled to assume and speculate just as I am entitled to my own beliefs on the matter.
Before TS wrote the "TIAI Revealed" posts, I was accused of being TS and being behind TIAI. Prior to being banned, TS had redirected to 2 of my posts, linked to at least 3 of my posts in an update and mentioned me personally in another update. I was an active participant on the previous version of this forum and on the old MJHD before it was closed down. I believe Michael Jackson is alive but I don't believe some things that others do and others don't believe everything I do. We are all different people, with different life experiences, of different ages, different educational, religious, political, nationalities etc. You can not make all of us agree with one another on every subject.
A forum is a medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged but that doesn't mean that the ideas will all be in agreement. If you only allow those whom agree with one view then you are thinking only within that box; only allowing ideas that confirm your already held beliefs.
You want me to apologize but I can't because I don't believe that I did anything wrong and any apology from that perspective would be totally insincere. I am an honest person, sometimes brutally and I am aware of that; it is who I am. I will not even be dishonest to be a part of this forum, I just can't do it. I have not answered you previously because there is no point in opening up old wounds or continuing to argue after months of my absence from the forum.
You, are of course free to do whatever you choose though I would hope that it isn't a ban because I am not troll and never have been. I was devastated to be banned and cut off from the rest of the members that I had built friendships with and was left feeling alone :(with what I know and have discovered but I am not going to beg to be allowed to participate on the forum. I do have both an interest in Michael Jackson's hoax and the members of this forum and I also do have relevant information and ideas to share.
Peace and unity are achieved when we learn to be tolerant of those whom we don't always agree with.
Thank you very much for your WISE words :) . You are NOT ALONE, I LOVE you :)!!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 23, 2011, 09:09:25 AM
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 23, 2011, 10:25:28 AM
Oh contraire, Miss G, I think it's very called for./bravo/ /bravo/ /bravo/ Thank you Bec for speaking your mind because I was becoming extremely frustrated and was strongly considering not participating in this thread any longer.
I do not have any respect for half-brained, half-assed "theories". No one gets an A for effort in the real world and I do not agree that pure participation in any form is helpful. All things are not created equal and to suggest such is to trivialize the efforts of a lot of really good, really smart, really dedicated individuals... who have all largely abandoned this thread as of recent. They, obviously, can bite their tongue much better then I but you won't convince me for one second that they don't feel exactly as I do.
Now I'll get a thousand whiny replies about how I'm intimidating others out of posting which is utter nonsense. Those replies that I invariably get are attempts to manipulate me into smiling and nodding at every bullshit crack pot post that we have to suffer through while it reduces our real estate value. Now if this little rant causes someone to pause and THINK before hitting reply now, and going back to check that they have a legitimate theory, or real evidence before wasting everyone's time again, then great. I say go TEAM.
This is really starting to become ridiculous, I read some of the theories (that have absolutely no supporting evidence by the way) and I go /overreacting/ Can we please stick to coherent theories and keep in mind two basic things: 1) Michael is NOT dead and 2) Michael is a human being. TS once asked us to come up with at least 2 or 3 things to support our theories that could be held up in a court of law; these things do not include feelings, dreams, and theories with absolutely NO evidence, as 'entertaining' as they may be. The majority has already agreed that there was only ONE ambulance at Carolwood on 6/25/09, but I am open to theories and opinions about why there were two or more AS LONG AS they are not theories that have been debunked repeatedly (i.e. you can see another ambulance inside the gates at the end of the video). I do not mean to be rude or offend anyone in anyway, but Bec and I cannot be the only ones who are frustrated and I have also noticed a number of members who have stopped participating in this thread, so I just wanted to speak up and offer my opinions in case a few of them are too nice to say so.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 23, 2011, 11:05:34 AM
This wasn't fully proven YET
Post by: applehead250609 on November 23, 2011, 11:09:02 AM
Post by: bec on November 23, 2011, 12:00:26 PM
So to speak you just contradict yourself,or maybe I'm wrong,
You are wrong.
Post by: loyalfan on November 23, 2011, 12:38:02 PM
Post by: MJonmind on November 23, 2011, 12:50:30 PM
I would like it very much if we could move forward with the task at hand, sticking to the assignment as given by the thread starter TS. But not letting emotions (whether soupy or nasty) become a distraction, sticking to cool-headedness and respect for all. Love tempered by firmness should rule the forum, as MJ exemplifies with his life.
Bec, I'm not mad at you (nor could I be), it's just you weren't saying clearly who was causing what you didn't like. And that WAS creating CONFUSION for me, since you said all the smart members had left the thread. Perhaps I shouldn't have taken it personally. I'm not the type to sulk or play games. I value openness, respect and a big helping of humor MOST of all. I realize you like to shoot from the hip. :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mnFsrmsA94&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mnFsrmsA94&feature=related) I'm the guy at 1:23 that says, "I got no gun, I got no gun!" pale/
Okay I've got that off my chest; I'm good now! bounce/ typing/
SD, thank you for your explanation of your perspective.
On with the show, This Is It!
Post by: bec on November 23, 2011, 01:06:06 PM
Also, to be specific, I said:
Quote
All things are not created equal and to suggest such is to trivialize the efforts of a lot of really good, really smart, really dedicated individuals... who have all largely abandoned this thread as of recent.
I word things very carefully and very specifically even while hip shooting. I did not say all period, I said all largely and that was accurate at the time of posting.
As far as respect, as much as I hate doing this, "respect is not given, it's earned". The quote is so incredibly accurate for moments like this. You do not get respect just by breathing and no one's posts have merit just because they can coordinate hand-mouse-post button.
But I agree with your sentiment re: on topic. I'm off to work. I'll participate in more relevant format tonight.
Post by: paula-c on November 23, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
Post by: MissG on November 23, 2011, 01:27:36 PM
Oh contraire, Miss G, I think it's very called for.It shows. You don´t have respect for anything that doesn´t lift up to your expectations. That does not mean that you are right. What you call "half-brained" theory meant a lot of time and work for the person who came up with it and that person has the right to post it here and participate with the tools the person has.
I do not have any respect for half-brained, half-assed "theories".
Your theory is not better nor more worth or "smart" than the simplest silly question or theory that can come across.
Honestly...is this a life or death task? As far as i am awared, we are here to SHARE theories and find whatever can be the truth or a slight hint of what COULD have happend.
No one gets an A for effort in the real world and I do not agree that pure participation in any form is helpful. All things are not created equal and to suggest such is to trivialize the efforts of a lot of really good, really smart, really dedicated individuals... who have all largely abandoned this thread as of recent.
In the real world people do get A for efforts. Every day.
Really good? really smart? on what terms, Bec? On the terms of collecting info in a thread created in a forum by a member called TS? That´s your definition of a smart person or dedicated individual? Apparently it is. You judge others in a negative way. Just prejudices and for such trivial issues.
Now I'll get a thousand whiny replies about how I'm intimidating others out of posting which is utter nonsense. Those replies that I invariably get are attempts to manipulate me into smiling and nodding at every bullshit crack pot post that we have to suffer through while it reduces our real estate value. Now if this little rant causes someone to pause and THINK before hitting reply now, and going back to check that they have a legitimate theory, or real evidence before wasting everyone's time again, then great. I say go TEAM.
You are awared that you are intimidating others out of posting, as written in your post. And no, nobody attempts to manipulate you into smiling and nodding at every bullshit crack pot post, YOU are the one with that mind set.
I don´t agree in the way you show your opinions and with your opinions but respect your right to tell about it. Let others work their right as well without falling in to names and calling people half brained.
It´s not that serious, Bec.
Post by: MissG on November 23, 2011, 01:34:09 PM
I can't figure out what the logo is on the door of the car but it doesn't look like either the LAFD or UCLA EMS logo to me but maybe I have just looked at the photo for too long. :shock:
(http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy67/droopinghalo/logo2.png)
Any ideas or am I simply mistaken?
From which pic comes that logo?
Post by: MissG on November 23, 2011, 01:40:02 PM
City of los Angeles Fire "coat of arms" (whatever is called in english)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSnMOqc92whwqLskaM_NSDpozAyt45S6QUfI5N4d7l8jAj_FrTs)
Post by: MissG on November 23, 2011, 01:44:11 PM
What´s up with this new info then?
Post by: MissG on November 23, 2011, 01:47:46 PM
Well, i always thought that when Ben spoke of the " that day and the other day " referred to the photo and that is if it is conducted that day, which makes me think that the person in the photo is Michael posing the day June 25 we saw the proceedings of Ben and his group to make people believe that the photo was taken that day
The thing with Ben is that he is from Norway, so even if his english sounds correct, may be he was not so clear of what he meant.
After watching some videos, I think that why people talk about more than one ambo is may be because they can´t make the distinction between different vans. What may appear as an ambo for a person could really be a support car or another type.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 23, 2011, 01:56:33 PM
no one's posts have merit just because they can coordinate hand-mouse-post button.Is there a contest between posts that I'm not aware of WTF???
What's the big award? A date with Michael /woohoo/ ?? 'Cause I wouldn't "torture" my brain for less ;D.
TS please hurry with that 7b bow/ bow/ bow/. Hope you get it ready by midnight /cook/.
Post by: paula-c on November 23, 2011, 02:00:14 PM
Well, i always thought that when Ben spoke of the " that day and the other day " referred to the photo and that is if it is conducted that day, which makes me think that the person in the photo is Michael posing the day June 25 we saw the proceedings of Ben and his group to make people believe that the photo was taken that day
The thing with Ben is that he is from Norway, so even if his english sounds correct, may be he was not so clear of what he meant.
After watching some videos, I think that why people talk about more than one ambo is may be because they can´t make the distinction between different vans. What may appear as an ambo for a person could really be a support car or another type.
And i am from Venezuela is why it is that sometimes nobody understands me :lol:
Post by: MissG on November 23, 2011, 02:01:06 PM
#2 Post at least one screen shot from each of the two videos, and describe specifically what discrepancy you see.
#3 Explain why you think that the differences are not merely: difference in time, difference in angle, and/or difference in camera quality/resolution.
Ok....1. I've believe there in a difference in shadows on the pavement at the entrance..
Bens video shows a more shadows of the trees near the entrance,
Then we have the Starline tour bus video, which shows a different shadow on the pavement...more pronounced and distinct....(Maybe the sun changed, but it was supposed to be at the same moment)
IMO..This could suggest a time difference between the two videos...
B. The second photo, again is a comparison of the positions of Ben Evenstad and Chris Weiss, the NPG photographers. This clearly show a discrepency with exactly where they were positioned at the time of the two seperate videos....Once again, could suggest a delay in time, not a camera issue....God bless.
I do have a question though....Who took the distant video of Ben taking the video...???
We do have pictures of the ambulance taking off....so could that be from one of the fans waiting outside on the opposite side of the road.?? Has this been brought up?
Imo, the shadows would only verify the time when the shots are taken. Knowing the disposition of the cars, place and orientation one could make an stimated guess of the time (i.e, the sun in summer is on top of everything at 12.00)
Ben being there at that time just suddenly makes no sense either. If he was there, was on a date so it was premeditated. If not, he shopped the pics and sold them to the media. I doubts his pics are the real deal.
Back in 2005?, again, the pic of Ben and MJ by an ambulance rings many bells.
Have no eyes today to compare pics of such bad quality and have no idea why to compare them...what for?
Post by: MissG on November 23, 2011, 02:03:20 PM
OFF TOPICno one's posts have merit just because they can coordinate hand-mouse-post button.Is there a contest between posts that I'm not aware of WTF???
What's the big award? A date with Michael penguin/?? 'Cause I wouldn't "torture" my brain for less ;D.
TS please hurry with that 7b bow/ bow/ bow/. Hope you get it ready by midnight /cook/.
Try to lick your elbow...that would give you the date with MJ :D
Post by: scorpionchik on November 23, 2011, 02:04:22 PM
Thank you Mjonmind ;), I feel the same,but don't pay attention,cause is just DISTRACTION,ok geek/???
Now there were 2 ambulances PERIOD TWO AMBULANCES OK????? Ben and Hollywood TV were FILMING THE SAME EVENT,that took place on TWO SEPARATE RE-enactments!!!! When you are doing a movie you need to TO DO IT more than once,lol,at LEAST TWICE.In this video you can CLEARLY see that there had been 2 ambulances all along,lol.After the first ambulance goes to the hospital,you clearly see another one inside the gates,PERIOD.Watch the video,cause in the END of it,you will see the second ambulance.PERIOD geek/ !!!!
TS ,TS please come out,BUNNY man albino/,TICK-TACK geek/ !!!!
(http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/44/77/alice,alice,in,wonderland,bianconiglio,bunny,dark,digital-4477cb02673be8816b5c9b50e5f30750_h.jpg)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU[/youtube]
Wasn't this theory and video debunked last year explaining that who ever recorded and placed it on youtube got the video of events in wrong sequence, backwards. Therefore you see one amb. backs up and leaves, then the "other one" inside the gate. That's what I remember.
Post by: applehead250609 on November 23, 2011, 02:05:06 PM
Oh contraire, Miss G, I think it's very called for.It shows. You don´t have respect for anything that doesn´t lift up to your expectations. That does not mean that you are right. What you call "half-brained" theory meant a lot of time and work for the person who came up with it and that person has the right to post it here and participate with the tools the person has.
I do not have any respect for half-brained, half-assed "theories".
Your theory is not better nor more worth or "smart" than the simplest silly question or theory that can come across.
Honestly...is this a life or death task? As far as i am awared, we are here to SHARE theories and find whatever can be the truth or a slight hint of what COULD have happend.No one gets an A for effort in the real world and I do not agree that pure participation in any form is helpful. All things are not created equal and to suggest such is to trivialize the efforts of a lot of really good, really smart, really dedicated individuals... who have all largely abandoned this thread as of recent.
In the real world people do get A for efforts. Every day.
Really good? really smart? on what terms, Bec? On the terms of collecting info in a thread created in a forum by a member called TS? That´s your definition of a smart person or dedicated individual? Apparently it is. You judge others in a negative way. Just prejudices and for such trivial issues.Now I'll get a thousand whiny replies about how I'm intimidating others out of posting which is utter nonsense. Those replies that I invariably get are attempts to manipulate me into smiling and nodding at every bullshit crack pot post that we have to suffer through while it reduces our real estate value. Now if this little rant causes someone to pause and THINK before hitting reply now, and going back to check that they have a legitimate theory, or real evidence before wasting everyone's time again, then great. I say go TEAM.
You are awared that you are intimidating others out of posting, as written in your post. And no, nobody attempts to manipulate you into smiling and nodding at every bullshit crack pot post, YOU are the one with that mind set.
I don´t agree in the way you show your opinions and with your opinions but respect your right to tell about it. Let others work their right as well without falling in to names and calling people half brained.
It´s not that serious, Bec.
:) :-*
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 23, 2011, 02:10:24 PM
@applehead, you confuse common sense and investigation with love. Do not tell me how to love, I know that perfectly well. My parents love me to death, but if I am wrong about something, they will tell me and if I don't listen, they can even get pretty angry and annoyed. That does not mean they don't love me, or are bad people. Stop blaming me and portraying me as such a person, or you can join SD/Wednesday, wherever she is. I have had a little too much dirt kicked in my face and if you plan on continuing that then that is fine, just not on this forum. I am through with your insults.
Furthermore, every single post underneath this one I am posting right now, is on topic. 7a is completed, unless:
Quote
The only exception would be if ALL of the following 3 conditions are met (then you can still post in this thread during 7b or 7c).
#1 Why, oh why …? If your answer is rehearsal, explain what would need to be practiced? What kind of potential mistake would be so devastating, that a highly risky practice run was necessary to ensure that the devastating mistake would not be made during the real thing?
#2 Post at least one screen shot from each of the two videos, and describe specifically what discrepancy you see.
#3 Explain why you think that the differences are not merely: difference in time, difference in angle, and/or difference in camera quality/resolution.
If not, then "please post it in the ambulance section of the forum {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?board=38.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?board=38.0)}."
Every post that is NOT on topic, will be sent to the trash bin immediately without warning.
Post by: curls on November 23, 2011, 02:21:00 PM
(Which would be exactly as it was presented to the world, before hoaxers totally over-complicated things.)
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 23, 2011, 02:24:24 PM
So in wrapping up 7a, have we come to the conclusion that it was one ambulance, filmed in real time, on 25th June 2009?
Most have, yes. There is not one bit of evidence that proves there was more than one or that it was filmed on a different day. As far as I'm aware, all the "more than one ambulance" and "video shot on different day" theories have been debunked.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 23, 2011, 02:27:53 PM
OFF TOPICno one's posts have merit just because they can coordinate hand-mouse-post button.Is there a contest between posts that I'm not aware of WTF???
What's the big award? A date with Michael penguin/?? 'Cause I wouldn't "torture" my brain for less ;D.
TS please hurry with that 7b bow/ bow/ bow/. Hope you get it ready by midnight /cook/.
Try to lick your elbow...that would give you the date with MJ :D
I was thinking more of a visit to Forest Lawn :(
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 23, 2011, 02:29:19 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 23, 2011, 02:34:16 PM
WTF?? I must be speaking an ancient language...
lolol/ sorry , I've read your post after coordinating hand-mouse-post to post mine.
Totally agree with staying on topic. But there is no topic until TS gives us the 7b.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 23, 2011, 02:46:06 PM
WTF?? I must be speaking an ancient language...
lolol/ sorry , I've read your post after coordinating hand-mouse-post to post mine.
Totally agree with staying on topic. But there is no topic until TS gives us the 7b.
There isn't?
Quote from: TS_comments
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.
Post by: luvandmissumike on November 23, 2011, 02:51:14 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 23, 2011, 02:54:41 PM
WTF?? I must be speaking an ancient language...
lolol/ sorry , I've read your post after coordinating hand-mouse-post to post mine.
Totally agree with staying on topic. But there is no topic until TS gives us the 7b.
There isn't?Quote from: TS_commentsOnce that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.
I was thinking there's nothing more to say about 7a, as you said to curls, we have sort of a consensus on 7a.
Post by: applehead250609 on November 23, 2011, 03:33:43 PM
Quote
8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
Dear TS if LEVEL 7b will be WHO or WHAT went to UCLA, can we include also THE CORONER VAN :? ???? I'm asking because I'm afaid that in that van was not only Michael,it was someone else also.Thank you :)
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 23, 2011, 03:36:03 PM
Quote8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
Dear TS if LEVEL 7b will be WHO or WHAT went to UCLA, can we include also THE CORONER VAN :? ???? I'm asking because I'm afaid that in that van was not only Michael,it was someone else also.Thank you :)
If you take the time to READ, you will find your answer without needing TS to spoon feed you. Big clue here:
Quote
who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009
Post by: fordtocarr on November 23, 2011, 03:57:41 PM
although we are progressing further into level 7...
If Ben was THE pic guy...the only one supposedly, (although, that article I read about the two Australian women who saw the whole thing, saying that a paparazzi got the last pic of dying Michael..and that was said just two days later...who's to say someone else didn't? How'd they or anyone know that would be THE pic??? I'm thinking again, that it was all set up...even the article)
so....just WHO took the pic for PROOF of Ben taking that LAST pic of dying MICHAEL????
Obviously it was needed for documentation of it all occurring!!!
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 23, 2011, 04:01:35 PM
Furthermore, every single post underneath this one I am posting right now, is on topic. 7a is completed, unless:
Quote
The only exception would be if ALL of the following 3 conditions are met (then you can still post in this thread during 7b or 7c).
#1 Why, oh why …? If your answer is rehearsal, explain what would need to be practiced? What kind of potential mistake would be so devastating, that a highly risky practice run was necessary to ensure that the devastating mistake would not be made during the real thing?
#2 Post at least one screen shot from each of the two videos, and describe specifically what discrepancy you see.
#3 Explain why you think that the differences are not merely: difference in time, difference in angle, and/or difference in camera quality/resolution.
If not, then "please post it in the ambulance section of the forum {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?board=38.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?board=38.0)}."
Every post that is NOT on topic, will be sent to the trash bin immediately without warning.
[/quote]
my view to" why they have to get a rehearsal"
i believe getting a clear and steady picture from a moving ambulance would be a risk, so i can inmagine that the still picture of Michael would be a risk. so i think Ben is just running at the right side of the ambulance for the credibillity from have taken this picture that day. ( on top of that if i remember it well,...i thought that we had reached the conclusion that it was not Michael from this era, so another reason that the picture had to be taken before the 25e, and had to be photoshopped to create suspicion for those who are interested at that time.He said that he realised that he had the picture already.... :shock:
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 23, 2011, 04:12:42 PM
I read a good question on here...(and thank you TS for answering my question about people in the tour bus taking pics we never see....)
although we are progressing further into level 7...
If Ben was THE pic guy...the only one supposedly, (although, that article I read about the two Australian women who saw the whole thing, saying that a paparazzi got the last pic of dying Michael..and that was said just two days later...who's to say someone else didn't? How'd they or anyone know that would be THE pic??? I'm thinking again, that it was all set up...even the article)
so....just WHO took the pic for PROOF of Ben taking that LAST pic of dying MICHAEL????
Obviously it was needed for documentation of it all occurring!!!
The National Photo Group did, since Ben had that picture himself, so probably one of his colleagues. Also, I think it was Chris who allegedly took the picture, not Ben. I think Ben was the one with the video camera. And as far as I'm concerned, the MJ in the pic could easily be MJ himself, there is no way to determine his age on that picture, since we don't see much of his face. If the picture was staged in advance, there would be no need to use a dummy, or photoshop an old picture in it in my opinion.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 23, 2011, 04:49:51 PM
I read a good question on here...(and thank you TS for answering my question about people in the tour bus taking pics we never see....)
although we are progressing further into level 7...
If Ben was THE pic guy...the only one supposedly, (although, that article I read about the two Australian women who saw the whole thing, saying that a paparazzi got the last pic of dying Michael..and that was said just two days later...who's to say someone else didn't? How'd they or anyone know that would be THE pic??? I'm thinking again, that it was all set up...even the article)
so....just WHO took the pic for PROOF of Ben taking that LAST pic of dying MICHAEL????
Obviously it was needed for documentation of it all occurring!!!
The National Photo Group did, since Ben had that picture himself, so probably one of his colleagues. Also, I think it was Chris who allegedly took the picture, not Ben. I think Ben was the one with the video camera. And as far as I'm concerned, the MJ in the pic could easily be MJ himself, there is no way to determine his age on that picture, since we don't see much of his face. If the picture was staged in advance, there would be no need to use a dummy, or photoshop an old picture in it in my opinion.
[/quote
THANK YOU ;)
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 23, 2011, 05:34:22 PM
Thanks to MissG I have wasted the last 15 mins of my life trying to lick my elbow! :lol: I knew it wasn't possible but I tried anyways just for fun lolol/OFF TOPICno one's posts have merit just because they can coordinate hand-mouse-post button.Is there a contest between posts that I'm not aware of WTF???
What's the big award? A date with Michael penguin/?? 'Cause I wouldn't "torture" my brain for less ;D.
TS please hurry with that 7b bow/ bow/ bow/. Hope you get it ready by midnight /cook/.
Try to lick your elbow...that would give you the date with MJ :D
Post by: paula-c on November 23, 2011, 05:43:25 PM
I read a good question on here...(and thank you TS for answering my question about people in the tour bus taking pics we never see....)
although we are progressing further into level 7...
If Ben was THE pic guy...the only one supposedly, (although, that article I read about the two Australian women who saw the whole thing, saying that a paparazzi got the last pic of dying Michael..and that was said just two days later...who's to say someone else didn't? How'd they or anyone know that would be THE pic??? I'm thinking again, that it was all set up...even the article)
so....just WHO took the pic for PROOF of Ben taking that LAST pic of dying MICHAEL????
Obviously it was needed for documentation of it all occurring!!!
The National Photo Group did, since Ben had that picture himself, so probably one of his colleagues. Also, I think it was Chris who allegedly took the picture, not Ben. I think Ben was the one with the video camera. And as far as I'm concerned, the MJ in the pic could easily be MJ himself, there is no way to determine his age on that picture, since we don't see much of his face. If the picture was staged in advance, there would be no need to use a dummy, or photoshop an old picture in it in my opinion.
Remind some of the things of the year 2009 ..... /cook/
Wednesday, December 30, 2009
What Are Friends For?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WgKQcrj6cW8/SzwSqxI24cI/AAAAAAAAALY/8CyHIIt41lk/s320/ug.jpg)
I don't really feel like I need to explain the picture above, everybody should already know what it is. Many of you even know the name of the photographer who took this photo. If not, no worries I gotcha covered. The name of the photographer who took this photo is Chris Weiss
Ben Evenstad was a pap who founded a photo agency. Ben and Michael Jackson just so happen to have more than just your average "Pap+celebrity relationship" You could even call them friends.
Ben Evenstad founded a photo agency and hired Chris Weiss as a paparazzo. The interesting thing about Chris is that, he wants to be a doctor. He has a long and impressive résumé of his experinces in the medical feild. Now just think about how handy that would be for Michael to be friends with someone like that.
Ben Evenstad's photo agency just happend to be the first photo agency to learn the location of Michael's rented mansion on Carolwood Drive. (They also just so happend to find out the location in December, which is when the first reports of Michael having 6 months to live first came out. Which in some theories is the begining of the hoax. ) I wonder who told them...
The morning of June 25th they just happend to of already have a Pap outside Michaels house. When the ambulance came they were the only Paps there.
"Weiss saw an ambulance inside the gates and a fire truck parked on the street. Ibanez had zoomed in through the window of the fire truck with his telephoto lens and snapped a picture of the call screen, which provided a few details about the situation inside. At this point, Weiss’s experience as an E.M.T. came in handy. He read from the digital image: “50-year-old male … not breathing … ”
Why haven't we seen this photo?
"The more time passed, the less serious Weiss figured Jackson’s problems must be. “We were there for 20 minutes,” he says, “and if you’ve got a full arrest”—when a patient really has stopped breathing—“the paramedics usually load and go within 8 to 10 minutes.”"
But they were there for about 40 minutes.
Notice how Chris Weiss's medical experience comes in handy.
"The morning after Jackson’s death, Weiss says, he was “happy because we got the picture. I took the last picture of Michael Jackson, ever. Because we had, as much as a photographer could for the last six months of his life, a relationship with Michael. There were days, like when he went to the doctor’s office sometimes, when we would just put our cameras down and visit with him. It’s weird to say this, as paparazzi, because the world can’t stand us, even though they can’t put our magazines down, but there was a closeness that our photographers had with Michael. If there was any fate to getting the shots, maybe that was it."
The kind of impression I'm getting from the quote above doesn't have a hint of sadness to it. I mean, Michael Jackson was their main focas and a good friend. He just passed away and their happy?
Why would they be happy about that?
Myabe it's because this whole thing was planned. Maybe during one of their "visits" with Michael they made a deal. It's a win win situation if you think about it. The paps probably made more money on that one photo than every other picture they've taken before. And Michael gets away with step one of the Hoax.
Think about it.
http://dianajeann.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2009-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2010-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=22
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 23, 2011, 05:45:06 PM
Maybe this aspect of HOW the photo was staged (dummy, photoshop, or Michael himself) is one of those "minor aspects of the 'how' that we will never know"? I sure would like to know one day tho.I read a good question on here...(and thank you TS for answering my question about people in the tour bus taking pics we never see....)
although we are progressing further into level 7...
If Ben was THE pic guy...the only one supposedly, (although, that article I read about the two Australian women who saw the whole thing, saying that a paparazzi got the last pic of dying Michael..and that was said just two days later...who's to say someone else didn't? How'd they or anyone know that would be THE pic??? I'm thinking again, that it was all set up...even the article)
so....just WHO took the pic for PROOF of Ben taking that LAST pic of dying MICHAEL????
Obviously it was needed for documentation of it all occurring!!!
The National Photo Group did, since Ben had that picture himself, so probably one of his colleagues. Also, I think it was Chris who allegedly took the picture, not Ben. I think Ben was the one with the video camera. And as far as I'm concerned, the MJ in the pic could easily be MJ himself, there is no way to determine his age on that picture, since we don't see much of his face. If the picture was staged in advance, there would be no need to use a dummy, or photoshop an old picture in it in my opinion.
THANK YOU ;)
Glad we finally came to a conclusion on 7a....bring on 7b!! I've prepared myself for all the "dead corpse" and "terminally ill double" theories lol
Post by: fordtocarr on November 23, 2011, 05:49:54 PM
I read a good question on here...(and thank you TS for answering my question about people in the tour bus taking pics we never see....)
although we are progressing further into level 7...
If Ben was THE pic guy...the only one supposedly, (although, that article I read about the two Australian women who saw the whole thing, saying that a paparazzi got the last pic of dying Michael..and that was said just two days later...who's to say someone else didn't? How'd they or anyone know that would be THE pic??? I'm thinking again, that it was all set up...even the article)
so....just WHO took the pic for PROOF of Ben taking that LAST pic of dying MICHAEL????
Obviously it was needed for documentation of it all occurring!!!
The National Photo Group did, since Ben had that picture himself, so probably one of his colleagues. Also, I think it was Chris who allegedly took the picture, not Ben. I think Ben was the one with the video camera. And as far as I'm concerned, the MJ in the pic could easily be MJ himself, there is no way to determine his age on that picture, since we don't see much of his face. If the picture was staged in advance, there would be no need to use a dummy, or photoshop an old picture in it in my opinion.
Remind some of the things of the year 2009 ..... /cook/
Wednesday, December 30, 2009
What Are Friends For?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WgKQcrj6cW8/SzwSqxI24cI/AAAAAAAAALY/8CyHIIt41lk/s320/ug.jpg)
I don't really feel like I need to explain the picture above, everybody should already know what it is. Many of you even know the name of the photographer who took this photo. If not, no worries I gotcha covered. The name of the photographer who took this photo is Chris Weiss
Ben Evenstad was a pap who founded a photo agency. Ben and Michael Jackson just so happen to have more than just your average "Pap+celebrity relationship" You could even call them friends.
Ben Evenstad founded a photo agency and hired Chris Weiss as a paparazzo. The interesting thing about Chris is that, he wants to be a doctor. He has a long and impressive résumé of his experinces in the medical feild. Now just think about how handy that would be for Michael to be friends with someone like that.
Ben Evenstad's photo agency just happend to be the first photo agency to learn the location of Michael's rented mansion on Carolwood Drive. (They also just so happend to find out the location in December, which is when the first reports of Michael having 6 months to live first came out. Which in some theories is the begining of the hoax. ) I wonder who told them...
The morning of June 25th they just happend to of already have a Pap outside Michaels house. When the ambulance came they were the only Paps there.
"Weiss saw an ambulance inside the gates and a fire truck parked on the street. Ibanez had zoomed in through the window of the fire truck with his telephoto lens and snapped a picture of the call screen, which provided a few details about the situation inside. At this point, Weiss’s experience as an E.M.T. came in handy. He read from the digital image: “50-year-old male … not breathing … ”
Why haven't we seen this photo?
"The more time passed, the less serious Weiss figured Jackson’s problems must be. “We were there for 20 minutes,” he says, “and if you’ve got a full arrest”—when a patient really has stopped breathing—“the paramedics usually load and go within 8 to 10 minutes.”"
But they were there for about 40 minutes.
Notice how Chris Weiss's medical experience comes in handy.
"The morning after Jackson’s death, Weiss says, he was “happy because we got the picture. I took the last picture of Michael Jackson, ever. Because we had, as much as a photographer could for the last six months of his life, a relationship with Michael. There were days, like when he went to the doctor’s office sometimes, when we would just put our cameras down and visit with him. It’s weird to say this, as paparazzi, because the world can’t stand us, even though they can’t put our magazines down, but there was a closeness that our photographers had with Michael. If there was any fate to getting the shots, maybe that was it."
The kind of impression I'm getting from the quote above doesn't have a hint of sadness to it. I mean, Michael Jackson was their main focas and a good friend. He just passed away and their happy?
Why would they be happy about that?
Myabe it's because this whole thing was planned. Maybe during one of their "visits" with Michael they made a deal. It's a win win situation if you think about it. The paps probably made more money on that one photo than every other picture they've taken before. And Michael gets away with step one of the Hoax.
Think about it.
http://dianajeann.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2009-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated-max=2010-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=22
THANK YOU TOO!
Really goes with what I've been trying to point out too ;)
Post by: fordtocarr on November 23, 2011, 05:53:16 PM
Maybe this aspect of HOW the photo was staged (dummy, photoshop, or Michael himself) is one of those "minor aspects of the 'how' that we will never know"? I sure would like to know one day tho.I read a good question on here...(and thank you TS for answering my question about people in the tour bus taking pics we never see....)
although we are progressing further into level 7...
If Ben was THE pic guy...the only one supposedly, (although, that article I read about the two Australian women who saw the whole thing, saying that a paparazzi got the last pic of dying Michael..and that was said just two days later...who's to say someone else didn't? How'd they or anyone know that would be THE pic??? I'm thinking again, that it was all set up...even the article)
so....just WHO took the pic for PROOF of Ben taking that LAST pic of dying MICHAEL????
Obviously it was needed for documentation of it all occurring!!!
The National Photo Group did, since Ben had that picture himself, so probably one of his colleagues. Also, I think it was Chris who allegedly took the picture, not Ben. I think Ben was the one with the video camera. And as far as I'm concerned, the MJ in the pic could easily be MJ himself, there is no way to determine his age on that picture, since we don't see much of his face. If the picture was staged in advance, there would be no need to use a dummy, or photoshop an old picture in it in my opinion.
THANK YOU ;)
Glad we finally came to a conclusion on 7a....bring on 7b!! I've prepared myself for all the "dead corpse" and "terminally ill double" theories lol
I'm sure there'll be tons of questions left unanswered and tons of books written by everyone.
In the meantime, until we get to this next level of TS's I thought I'd ask, seeing as it sorta did tie in, and TS did reply to my question
regarding the tour bus and the pics taken at that time.
I bet when Michael returns, everyone involved in any way will be claiming involvement...even quite a few on here!
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 23, 2011, 05:57:11 PM
Souza should write a book! It could be about the hoax from the believers' point of view....we definitely have complied enough information for it! :lol:Maybe this aspect of HOW the photo was staged (dummy, photoshop, or Michael himself) is one of those "minor aspects of the 'how' that we will never know"? I sure would like to know one day tho.I read a good question on here...(and thank you TS for answering my question about people in the tour bus taking pics we never see....)
although we are progressing further into level 7...
If Ben was THE pic guy...the only one supposedly, (although, that article I read about the two Australian women who saw the whole thing, saying that a paparazzi got the last pic of dying Michael..and that was said just two days later...who's to say someone else didn't? How'd they or anyone know that would be THE pic??? I'm thinking again, that it was all set up...even the article)
so....just WHO took the pic for PROOF of Ben taking that LAST pic of dying MICHAEL????
Obviously it was needed for documentation of it all occurring!!!
The National Photo Group did, since Ben had that picture himself, so probably one of his colleagues. Also, I think it was Chris who allegedly took the picture, not Ben. I think Ben was the one with the video camera. And as far as I'm concerned, the MJ in the pic could easily be MJ himself, there is no way to determine his age on that picture, since we don't see much of his face. If the picture was staged in advance, there would be no need to use a dummy, or photoshop an old picture in it in my opinion.
THANK YOU ;)
Glad we finally came to a conclusion on 7a....bring on 7b!! I've prepared myself for all the "dead corpse" and "terminally ill double" theories lol
I'm sure there'll be tons of questions left unanswered and tons of books written by everyone.
In the meantime, until we get to this next level of TS's I thought I'd ask, seeing as it sorta did tie in, and TS did reply to my question
regarding the tour bus and the pics taken at that time.
I bet when Michael returns, everyone involved in any way will be claiming involvement...even quite a few on here!
Post by: scorpionchik on November 23, 2011, 11:39:11 PM
QUESTION: WAS MURRAY IN THE SAME AMBULANCE WHERE "MICHAEL" WAS THAT TOOK HIM TO THE UCLA OR MURRAY WAS IN THE DIFFERENT CAR FOLLOWING AMB.? WHO, BESIDES PARAMEDICS AND PATIENT, WAS IN THAT AMB.?
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 23, 2011, 11:47:11 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-er-doc-conrad-murray-withheld-information/story?id=14642203&page=2
Post by: scorpionchik on November 24, 2011, 12:08:33 AM
murray allegedly rode in ambulance with mj. and was allegedly on the phone
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-er-doc-conrad-murray-withheld-information/story?id=14642203&page=2
Thanks. "Murray rode in the ambulance with the paramedics to the UCLA emergency room. Senneff testified that he observed Murray talking on his cell phone on the ambulance ride. "
I wonder if Senneff was asked on trial to confirm it and who Murray was talking to and what was the subject.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 24, 2011, 12:13:50 AM
murray allegedly rode in ambulance with mj. and was allegedly on the phone
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-er-doc-conrad-murray-withheld-information/story?id=14642203&page=2
Thanks. "Murray rode in the ambulance with the paramedics to the UCLA emergency room. Senneff testified that he observed Murray talking on his cell phone on the ambulance ride. "
I wonder if Senneff was asked on trial to confirm it and who Murray was talking to and what was the subject.
Only one way to find out...: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/trial/videoscategory/day-4/
Post by: scorpionchik on November 24, 2011, 12:56:35 AM
murray allegedly rode in ambulance with mj. and was allegedly on the phone
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-er-doc-conrad-murray-withheld-information/story?id=14642203&page=2
Thanks. "Murray rode in the ambulance with the paramedics to the UCLA emergency room. Senneff testified that he observed Murray talking on his cell phone on the ambulance ride. "
I wonder if Senneff was asked on trial to confirm it and who Murray was talking to and what was the subject.
Only one way to find out...: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/trial/videoscategory/day-4/
I knew you gonna respond with something like this. After all it's been 2,5 years, we already more or less know each other long distance. :lol: ;) I just don't have a patience to go back and review all over, but thanks. /white flag/
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 24, 2011, 05:07:57 AM
What is taking you so long? Did you forget to post 7b? LOL
Post by: paula-c on November 24, 2011, 07:37:30 AM
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0aQ8IjbLmnb77Jt2molJSJvM4wizdnW8Vl2XuUASzYu-Rc6t9-Q)
Michael Jackson RX
10/19/2009 2:18 PM PDT BY TMZ STAFF
Dr. Murray's Car at Drug Delivery Point
Dr. Conrad Murray's car was seen tooling around L.A. this weekend -- and while Murray wasn't in it, his ride stopped somewhere he knows all too well.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/10/19/1019_murray_flashcity_video-copy-1.jpg)
TMZ has learned one of his bodyguards has been driving the BMW to the Santa Monica apartment of Murray baby mama Nicole Alvarez -- the same pad the doc used to have Michael Jackson's Propofol delivered from a Las Vegas pharmacy.
As we previously reported, Murray was living at the apartment, when he was giving Jackson nocturnal Propofol infusions at the singer's home.
Conrad Murray's Car in LA -- Is The Doc Driving?
Posted Oct 12 2009 9:00PM at TMZ
(http://www.favdaddy.com/imgs/entries/10-09/1012_murray_infphoto_1086497.jpg)
TMZ obtained a photo of Dr. Conrad Murray's car -- the same one that was towed away from Michael Jackson's house the day MJ died -- speeding down the 405 Freeway in Los Angeles on Saturday. We've confirmed it's the same car -- and the agency that shot the photo insists it's the good doc behind the wheel. Dr. Murray's rep tells us Murray was NOT driving. When you look closely at the pic and compare it to Murray's most recent appearance, there are similarities and differences. What do you think?
At other times we see Murray in a black car and not the lightcolored BMW, he seemed to have parked outside Carolwood Dr that day (the one the police seized).
Conrad Murray leaving court. Maybe this Mercedes isnt his but a rental car...
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 24, 2011, 09:16:17 AM
Yoohoo, TS! bounce/ bounce/ bounce/
What is taking you so long? Did you forget to post 7b? LOL
It's sizzling... /pull hair/
...I wonder what hour is he waiting for now. Or maybe he's waiting the 25th of November..
You think we could start by ourselves ....and finish /overreacting/??
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 24, 2011, 09:55:04 AM
Happy Thanksgiving TS!! Happy Thanksgiving to my hoax family! I love each and every one of you!!
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 24, 2011, 09:59:16 AM
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSap5LqrNwer3xgsNwhR1Hl0BuTwOfRFakGFORtAl2lIl3e54Fd6g)That's definitely not Murray driving that car, but maybe it's his bodyguard that was mentioned in the other article (even tho I don't really recall ever seeing him with a bodyguard). Wasn't that car that they towed supposedly registered to Murray's "sister"??
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0aQ8IjbLmnb77Jt2molJSJvM4wizdnW8Vl2XuUASzYu-Rc6t9-Q)
Michael Jackson RX
10/19/2009 2:18 PM PDT BY TMZ STAFF
Dr. Murray's Car at Drug Delivery Point
Dr. Conrad Murray's car was seen tooling around L.A. this weekend -- and while Murray wasn't in it, his ride stopped somewhere he knows all too well.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/10/19/1019_murray_flashcity_video-copy-1.jpg)
TMZ has learned one of his bodyguards has been driving the BMW to the Santa Monica apartment of Murray baby mama Nicole Alvarez -- the same pad the doc used to have Michael Jackson's Propofol delivered from a Las Vegas pharmacy.
As we previously reported, Murray was living at the apartment, when he was giving Jackson nocturnal Propofol infusions at the singer's home.
Conrad Murray's Car in LA -- Is The Doc Driving?
Posted Oct 12 2009 9:00PM at TMZ
(http://www.favdaddy.com/imgs/entries/10-09/1012_murray_infphoto_1086497.jpg)
TMZ obtained a photo of Dr. Conrad Murray's car -- the same one that was towed away from Michael Jackson's house the day MJ died -- speeding down the 405 Freeway in Los Angeles on Saturday. We've confirmed it's the same car -- and the agency that shot the photo insists it's the good doc behind the wheel. Dr. Murray's rep tells us Murray was NOT driving. When you look closely at the pic and compare it to Murray's most recent appearance, there are similarities and differences. What do you think?
At other times we see Murray in a black car and not the lightcolored BMW, he seemed to have parked outside Carolwood Dr that day (the one the police seized).
Conrad Murray leaving court. Maybe this Mercedes isnt his but a rental car...
Post by: MJonmind on November 24, 2011, 03:08:15 PM
(http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Murray+takes+a+dip+6av_qsrLdiOl.jpg)
And it looks like they might be leaving the Antioch Missionary Church in it as well, at the end of the video.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/11/23/dr-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-work-houston/#.Ts6zZ7LNmI0 (http://www.tmz.com/2009/11/23/dr-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-work-houston/#.Ts6zZ7LNmI0)
Post by: julia142 on November 24, 2011, 03:17:48 PM
Yes, it looks like his bodyguard.
(http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/bg/Murray+takes+a+dip+6av_qsrLdiOl.jpg)
But why would Murray need a bodyguard before june 25th 2009? It does not make sense! And at the first glance I saw this picture, I thought right away the he looks like his bodyguard! But I think that it is a good thing so because I can't find any answers as of why he would have this bodyguard back then! :)
Post by: julia142 on November 24, 2011, 03:18:49 PM
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSap5LqrNwer3xgsNwhR1Hl0BuTwOfRFakGFORtAl2lIl3e54Fd6g)That's definitely not Murray driving that car, but maybe it's his bodyguard that was mentioned in the other article (even tho I don't really recall ever seeing him with a bodyguard). Wasn't that car that they towed supposedly registered to Murray's "sister"??
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0aQ8IjbLmnb77Jt2molJSJvM4wizdnW8Vl2XuUASzYu-Rc6t9-Q)
Michael Jackson RX
10/19/2009 2:18 PM PDT BY TMZ STAFF
Dr. Murray's Car at Drug Delivery Point
Dr. Conrad Murray's car was seen tooling around L.A. this weekend -- and while Murray wasn't in it, his ride stopped somewhere he knows all too well.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/10/19/1019_murray_flashcity_video-copy-1.jpg)
TMZ has learned one of his bodyguards has been driving the BMW to the Santa Monica apartment of Murray baby mama Nicole Alvarez -- the same pad the doc used to have Michael Jackson's Propofol delivered from a Las Vegas pharmacy.
As we previously reported, Murray was living at the apartment, when he was giving Jackson nocturnal Propofol infusions at the singer's home.
Conrad Murray's Car in LA -- Is The Doc Driving?
Posted Oct 12 2009 9:00PM at TMZ
(http://www.favdaddy.com/imgs/entries/10-09/1012_murray_infphoto_1086497.jpg)
TMZ obtained a photo of Dr. Conrad Murray's car -- the same one that was towed away from Michael Jackson's house the day MJ died -- speeding down the 405 Freeway in Los Angeles on Saturday. We've confirmed it's the same car -- and the agency that shot the photo insists it's the good doc behind the wheel. Dr. Murray's rep tells us Murray was NOT driving. When you look closely at the pic and compare it to Murray's most recent appearance, there are similarities and differences. What do you think?
At other times we see Murray in a black car and not the lightcolored BMW, he seemed to have parked outside Carolwood Dr that day (the one the police seized).
Conrad Murray leaving court. Maybe this Mercedes isnt his but a rental car...
I was not talking about the picture on the beach but this one with the guy in Murray's car...
Post by: MJEnjoyYourself on November 24, 2011, 03:21:02 PM
Any modern digital camera records a timecode in the last line of the frame fileds, usually a black thin line which is not visible to the eye in the screen, even though a visible time code is not stamped on the screen while recording (a feature you can choose to use or not). This last line of the field contains further information of the recording such as audio.
This time code stamp has no gap through the whole tape as far there´s no gap in the recording (and I mean gap, not stops while recording). Only if it´s a blank tape and there´s a first recording, then we stop, make a gap by forwarding the tape and the recording again, or what´s the same recording uncontinuously on a blank tape, it´s possible to create a gap in the time code.
This is the audio track in a film:
(http://pavtechnologies.com/pavwordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sound-track-on-film-1.jpg)
The same happens in a digital video tape, although on films it is printed this way and on analogic video tapes was similar but stamped in a line of one of the two fields of a frame, digital video tapes have aditional information stamped in the same way but digitaly (ceros and ones).
This is a schema on how video works in two (or more) fields (even and odds), both analogic and digital:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/2-2pulldown.svg)
Sorry I couldn´t find a digital video tape track´s schema.
But just take a look at the wiki to see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_code
The SMPTE family of timecodes are almost universally used in film, video and audio production, and can be encoded in many different formats, including:
Linear timecode (LTC)
Vertical interval timecode (VITC)
AES-EBU embedded timecode used with digital audio
Burnt-in timecode
CTL timecode (Control track)
MIDI timecode
About the impossibility to synchronize the tapes again wrong, any tape can be synchronized with any other even without time stamp, by anyone with editing skills. And if there´s no stop in the recording, once a point is synchronized with the other camera´s tape, the rest of the recording will be synchronized without any lag. If there´s a stop in any of the recordings, a new point can be synchronized and it will work until the end of the recording or until the next stop.
So, I don´t think the recordings are from two diferent days... but it would be possible.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 24, 2011, 04:20:46 PM
So here it is 0:19, on the forum it says 6:19 AM and where TS lives or seems to post from it is like 6 hours earlier than the hour displayed on the forum???
bangbang
Post by: curls on November 24, 2011, 04:47:40 PM
I have mine set to UK time (where I am) and I know (from all those weeks watching the trial!) that LA time is 8 hours behind mine.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 24, 2011, 05:09:07 PM
Now the problem is that I think TS is posting from the same hour zone as me WTF??. TIME is really making my head spin like a carousel :lol: :lol: :lol:
Can think only of South Africa .......or the North Pole errrr errrr errrr.. fresse/
Anyway, I think it's safe to go to sleep because probably TS will only post at 11:29 moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ ....or 1:17....or God knows when smiley_spider..
Post by: fordtocarr on November 24, 2011, 05:30:08 PM
Imagine THAT!!
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 24, 2011, 05:42:26 PM
I still think a double went to UCLA instead of Michael. If the FBI is in, no one could have problems with that, right?
TS... levels most interesting are to come ... I am very anxious to see your new post. afraid/
Post by: paula-c on November 24, 2011, 06:02:46 PM
Beside that I also believe there´s no reason to record the ambo scene in two days, there´s an accuracy on TS´s post that I´d like to make clear.
Any modern digital camera records a timecode in the last line of the frame fileds, usually a black thin line which is not visible to the eye in the screen, even though a visible time code is not stamped on the screen while recording (a feature you can choose to use or not). This last line of the field contains further information of the recording such as audio.
This time code stamp has no gap through the whole tape as far there´s no gap in the recording (and I mean gap, not stops while recording). Only if it´s a blank tape and there´s a first recording, then we stop, make a gap by forwarding the tape and the recording again, or what´s the same recording uncontinuously on a blank tape, it´s possible to create a gap in the time code.
This is the audio track in a film:
(http://pavtechnologies.com/pavwordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/sound-track-on-film-1.jpg)
The same happens in a digital video tape, although on films it is printed this way and on analogic video tapes was similar but stamped in a line of one of the two fields of a frame, digital video tapes have aditional information stamped in the same way but digitaly (ceros and ones).
This is a schema on how video works in two (or more) fields (even and odds), both analogic and digital:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/2-2pulldown.svg)
Sorry I couldn´t find a digital video tape track´s schema.
But just take a look at the wiki to see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_code
The SMPTE family of timecodes are almost universally used in film, video and audio production, and can be encoded in many different formats, including:
Linear timecode (LTC)
Vertical interval timecode (VITC)
AES-EBU embedded timecode used with digital audio
Burnt-in timecode
CTL timecode (Control track)
MIDI timecode
About the impossibility to synchronize the tapes again wrong, any tape can be synchronized with any other even without time stamp, by anyone with editing skills. And if there´s no stop in the recording, once a point is synchronized with the other camera´s tape, the rest of the recording will be synchronized without any lag. If there´s a stop in any of the recordings, a new point can be synchronized and it will work until the end of the recording or until the next stop.
So, I don´t think the recordings are from two diferent days... but it would be possible.
SMPTE, ..well, for what i have read and from what i understand is a code of synchrony and location used in videos, identifies each image in hours, minutes, seconds and frames (one image within other images that are in an animation ) allowing the exact location of each image through some codes.
We have learned a lot of things with TS lolol/
Post by: Adi on November 24, 2011, 06:31:04 PM
Great!! Thank you curls.
Now the problem is that I think TS is posting from the same hour zone as me WTF??. TIME is really making my head spin like a carousel :lol: :lol: :lol:
Can think only of South Africa .......or the North Pole errrr errrr errrr.. fresse/
Anyway, I think it's safe to go to sleep because probably TS will only post at 11:29 moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ ....or 1:17....or God knows when smiley_spider..
TS posts on USA Pacific Time. The forum default time is set to UTC time (London UK time) and you can change the time in your settings to what you want. Souza helped me with this ages ago.
Hope that helps you Gina. :)
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 24, 2011, 08:05:00 PM
Thank you Mjonmind ;), I feel the same,but don't pay attention,cause is just DISTRACTION,ok geek/???
Now there were 2 ambulances PERIOD TWO AMBULANCES OK????? Ben and Hollywood TV were FILMING THE SAME EVENT,that took place on TWO SEPARATE RE-enactments!!!! When you are doing a movie you need to TO DO IT more than once,lol,at LEAST TWICE.In this video you can CLEARLY see that there had been 2 ambulances all along,lol.After the first ambulance goes to the hospital,you clearly see another one inside the gates,PERIOD.Watch the video,cause in the END of it,you will see the second ambulance.PERIOD geek/ !!!!
TS ,TS please come out,BUNNY man albino/,TICK-TACK geek/ !!!!
(http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/44/77/alice,alice,in,wonderland,bianconiglio,bunny,dark,digital-4477cb02673be8816b5c9b50e5f30750_h.jpg)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU[/youtube]
Wasn't this theory and video debunked last year explaining that who ever recorded and placed it on youtube got the video of events in wrong sequence, backwards. Therefore you see one amb. backs up and leaves, then the "other one" inside the gate. That's what I remember.
scorpionchik, this is what I have been saying for the longest time, they tell me no, it is 2 seperate movies, same ambulance.. they restarted over the tape..
Post by: scorpionchik on November 24, 2011, 08:36:39 PM
Thank you Mjonmind ;), I feel the same,but don't pay attention,cause is just DISTRACTION,ok geek/???
Now there were 2 ambulances PERIOD TWO AMBULANCES OK????? Ben and Hollywood TV were FILMING THE SAME EVENT,that took place on TWO SEPARATE RE-enactments!!!! When you are doing a movie you need to TO DO IT more than once,lol,at LEAST TWICE.In this video you can CLEARLY see that there had been 2 ambulances all along,lol.After the first ambulance goes to the hospital,you clearly see another one inside the gates,PERIOD.Watch the video,cause in the END of it,you will see the second ambulance.PERIOD geek/ !!!!
TS ,TS please come out,BUNNY man albino/,TICK-TACK geek/ !!!!
(http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/44/77/alice,alice,in,wonderland,bianconiglio,bunny,dark,digital-4477cb02673be8816b5c9b50e5f30750_h.jpg)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU[/youtube]
Wasn't this theory and video debunked last year explaining that who ever recorded and placed it on youtube got the video of events in wrong sequence, backwards. Therefore you see one amb. backs up and leaves, then the "other one" inside the gate. That's what I remember.
scorpionchik, this is what I have been saying for the longest time, they tell me no, it is 2 seperate movies, same ambulance.. they restarted over the tape..
Who tells 'NO'? If am not mistaken it was bec who replied to my question about 2 ambs., I thought so at the time, that sequence of events is wrong and subject was closed with the conclusion there was 1 ambulance.
Post by: bec on November 24, 2011, 09:42:03 PM
Quote
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.
Quote
Okay, I agree that it’s time to wrap up 7a and move on to 7b.
I’m going to make a few closing comments regarding 7a, and then I will post 7b introduction as soon as I have it ready (it will be a new redirect, but not a new thread).
Just posting for reference.
@MissG, the "prize", if there is one, is our collective legitimacy.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 24, 2011, 09:53:14 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 24, 2011, 10:31:04 PM
Quote
Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.
There are 5 major theories that we started kicking around during 7a discussions:
- Live MJ
- Real Dead Body
- Live MJ Double
- Dummy
- Nothing
Live MJ:
| Pros: Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body" Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening |
| Cons: Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving |
Live MJ Double:
| Pros: Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body" Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process Allows the real MJ to "escape" undetected long before the events of Day Zero begin |
| Cons: Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving Risk of mistakes; MJ hands the reins of this project, along with the responsibility of a live performance/no do-overs to someone else Additional person required to be in on it |
Real Dead Body
| Pros: Allows UCLA docs and Paramedics and Coroner to tell the truth regarding responsiveness/clinical death Keeps up appearances to unauthorized personnel, it really IS a corpse Allows legal documents to be "less" fake-- someone really DID die |
| Cons: UCLA Docs and Coroner would still be participating in deception, bcuz the body could not be ID'ed as MJ-- accepted truth, statistical impossibility: an MJ double with vitiligo and some matching scars died on 6/25/09, nor would doctors or the coroner be fooled by a preserved (/or frozen) corpse. Would be unrecognizable as MJ prompting suspicion from unauthorized personnel who happen to see the body Possible legality issues upon reveal, desecration of a corpse, tampering with a corpse, abuse of a corpse, failure to report a death Morality issues in public relations upon reveal Legal documents are still fake, they ID the corpse as MJosephJ |
Dummy
| Pros: Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body" |
| Cons: Storage and disposal-- how do you get rid of it after the fact? A life-size MJ dummy floating around not locked down after the events of 6/25/09 would be a massive risk. It wouldn't fool medical personnel |
Nothing
| Pros: ?? |
| Cons: If anyone sees an empty ambulance that isn't supposed to see an empty ambulance (at either end), immediate strong suspicion might be raised and considering MJs typical appearances in the news, could cast doubt over the entire affair right off the bat. |
Please feel free to add to these categories as I certainly didn't compile the full list for each. I probably missed more then several points. It might help narrow things down.
I came in thinking it was probably nothing that went to UCLA on 6/25/09 but now I'm back to the Live MJ theory. There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day. The Pros of MJ doing it himself on that list are too many and too important to ignore (major benefits), especially compared with the other main options we have presented.[/list]
Post by: MJonmind on November 24, 2011, 10:58:24 PM
Quote
Besides, the entire state of California is not in on the hoax. MJ has been planning this hoax for many years; and he had the time and influence to get a few key people in the right positions to pull it off—and yes, even government agencies still have some good people in them. Look at history: many times people in high positions have stood up against the corruption in their own system (government, or church, etc).
But MJ did not involve large quantities of people. In fact, the “three-way theory” is basically correct {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5382&start=0 (http://http/michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5382&start=0)}; this theory states that the fewer people “in on it”, the better (although more than three are actually involved, and the “three-way theory” does allow for more than three).
Also, as far as possible, legal loopholes were used. Nevertheless, with a hoax of this magnitude and importance: whether the line was ever crossed, between being inside or outside of legal loopholes, is a question that probably doesn’t even need to be answered.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4-37. Hints on the “How’s” of the Hoax
In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts (http://http/michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts)}. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?
I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.
For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.
This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/ (http://http/www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/)}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/ (http://http/www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/);http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/ (http://http/www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/);http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/ (http://http/www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/)}
4-38. Only a Few Would Need to Be “In On It”
Let me also clue you in on a few tricks, so that only a relatively few people would need to be “in on it”. The endlessly discussed helicopter ride to the coroner: it could’ve had a living and/or a dead body in it, but not MJ; and yet none of the people in the copter, or working that situation, would’ve had any clue that MJ was alive.
All you would need to do is create a diversion for the media and public: the helicopter and all would be a big show for the media, while they transport the (supposedly) “real” MJ’s body in an unmarked vehicle—this would keep MJ’s body safer. And all the people “involved” in that diversion operation would play right along, and obey without question like good little boys and girls,thinking all the while that MJ’s dead body was being transported in some unmarked vehicle (and not even questioning whether or not MJ was actually dead). And even if they suspected later that MJ is alive, how would they know? They would not know, they would just suspect it (like hoax believers).
The fact that it’s a criminal case is another good alibi for secrecy and cover-up; this way, nobody thinks twice when they’re told not to talk about what they did or did not see at UCLA on June 25 (or other times and places).
Some have said that Forest Lawn (FL) would need to be in on the hoax; and maybe they are, but maybe not. If there was an actual dead body used during at least some of the process: then a dead body could’ve been at FL, even though it was not MJ. And sooner or later, the family could say: “We’ve decided to bury MJ somewhere else; but for privacy and security reasons, we want the public to think that he is buried here.”
They might even have FL sign confidentiality agreements, promising not to let anyone know that MJ was not buried at FL. Of course FL would still get paid, because the family did purchase space there {http://http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/us/04jackson.html (http://http/www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/us/04jackson.html)}; and since FL got their money, they would not care where MJ was actually buried, and that would be the end of it—FL might never imagine that MJ is still alive.
Do I need to give any more hints? I think I’ve said enough already. Besides, you want some surprises left for after Bamsday, don’t you?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=7194.msg116959#msg116959 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=7194.msg116959#msg116959)
#2.MJ Was Gone to the Airport
For this scenario, I’m going to go on the idea that TS is actually MJ. But please do not take this and run with it; I am merely showing that if MJ himself could make the same statements about the 911 call, and still not be a fake—then just as much or more could someone other than MJ make these same statements, and yet not be a fake.
What if MJ had already gone to the airport, before the 911 call was made; he was not there in person, to observe what actually happened. Someone at the house not in on it was urging that someone call 911, and by 12:20 Alvarez felt that he could not delay any longer without raising too much suspicion; so he called 911 a little early. In spite of the early call, the transfer to LAFD was not completed until 12:21; and this provided an opportunity for good old TMZ to still report the intended time, 12:21 http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/). Other media copied TMZ’s report, and so 12:21 became the time of the 911 call reported almost everywhere. Nevertheless, this scenario does not explain the discrepancies in timing given by BHPD and LAFD, etc.TS July 07, 2011, 07:00:13 PMThis next quote is rather lengthy, with excerpts from pages 326-331: “Michael’s fans have been particularly helpful in providing useful information. Because they were so loyal to Michael, they knew his habits extremely well and were struck by the deviation from the normon the nights just prior to, and the night of, Michael’s death. … According to fans, when Michael was on his way to rehearsal on [June 24] the day of his death, as he drove through the gate at Carolwood, he did not roll his window down and talk to them.That was totally out of character for Michael. I’venever known Michael to behave in that wayto a group of fans that had been so devoted to him. … Then, when he arrived at the Staples Center,he didn’t walk over to his fans. … That night, June 24, 2009, Michael’s last night of rehearsal before he died, his usual routine was again interrupted. … A number of men involved in his business dealings, who had never before been there during rehearsals, were waitingthat evening for Michael to get there. Michael and the men remained in his dressing room for several hours… I believe that Michael knewat that moment he was going to die soon. … When Michael left his final rehearsal on the night that he passed, he managed to deliver a covert message to some fans through tears. ‘You’ve gotta help me,’ he whispered. ‘You’ve gotta get me out of here.’ … As usual, the fans sped to Carolwood to get there before Michael arrived. They did so, as always, but this night was different. According to the fans who stayed outside Michael’s house every night to watch him come home from rehearsal, on the night of June 24, 2009, the last night before he passed, when he arrived home from rehearsal, the security measures at the house were much different from any other nightwhen Michael returned from rehearsal. A line of roughly ten men were lined up on both sides of his gate. Normally, he had only the two or three security guards that were with him, and the one that was in the post inside the yard. But this night was different, security was everywhere, and again Michael’s car didn’t stopon the way inside the gate. … [One fan reported:] ‘I stand outside the gate, and Michael has the same routine every night. After he comes home from rehearsal, he goes upstairs, and about twenty minutes later the light in a room goes off. The night that he died, the light stayed on all night. I got worried. The light never went off. I didn’t get it. I didn’t understand what had happened. It was very strange. … Oh, and security was acting strange,’ she said. I knew I needed to speak to several other fans regarding that night, and when I did,their stories were the same.”
We have long been told that MJ never got any sleep that night, and he was still trying to get to sleep the next morning, when Dr. Murray gave him the propofol to put him to sleep. But now we know why he couldn't get to sleep that night—because he forgot to shut the light off when he went to bed!!!
Bec, though I believe MJ himself doing all the ambulance stunt stuff is the most appealing and fun, I've changed my mind because of all TS's words. He is strongly hinting that MJ did indeed go to the airport, with something indeed dead needing a very warm temperature up in the bedroom, and producing some bizarre behaviour during the time immediately after the 24th rehearsal. I know that's where TS is headed, so I've adjusted my mental thinking. We can try to debunk all the other options but in the end, TS really knows what happened. The question is--when did MJ slip away--right after rehearsal, early morning, mid-morning? It appears to me that it may be a combo of corpse at the bedroom and coroner, and double sitting up on the stretcher and stepping out of the coroner van. IDK
(Edit: sorry about the sizing words mixed in--I swear my posting tools have become possessed since I switched to Google Chrome. They just do what they want though I fight them :evil: )
Post by: bec on November 24, 2011, 11:04:26 PM
What benefit?
Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?
So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.
Post by: MJonmind on November 24, 2011, 11:16:08 PM
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 24, 2011, 11:30:20 PM
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 24, 2011, 11:37:18 PM
Quote from: MJonmind
The question is--when did MJ slip away
What about the surveillance video at Carolwood, where a car went out sometime after 1am...could that of when MJ slipped away?
Post by: scorpionchik on November 24, 2011, 11:38:35 PM
MJonmind, the million dollar question is... for what purpose?
What benefit?
Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?
So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.
Good question bec. Maybe real corpse, dummy, or nothing intended to fool fans, prosecutors and court who bring Murray to trial, found guilty, and will convict for manslaughter.
Post by: bec on November 24, 2011, 11:57:16 PM
What about a combination of Live MJ and Dummy?
Remember, we are just talking about Carrolwood--->UCLA. Beyond that stage is irrelevant to 7b.
MJonmind, the million dollar question is... for what purpose?
What benefit?
Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?
So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.
Good question bec. Maybe real corpse intended to fool fans, prosecutors and court who bring Murray to trial, found guilty, and will convict for manslaughter.
So are you saying the gurney pic is a real dead body that looks *exactly* MJ? I thought the dead MJ double was debunked officially.
Because this is the only time the fans, the prosecutors, and the court "saw" the dead body... in that pic in court. So if you're saying a real corpse's use is designed to fool these people, that's what you're referring to. There's no other instance these people (entity) come into contact with a dead MJ body, other then the ambulance pic (proven staged prior). Even if that were the case, that the intent was to fool fans/prosecutors/court, you wouldn't need to send a corpse from Carrolwood to UCLA on 6/25/09 shortly after 1pm for the purpose of fooling people 28 months later in the form of a pic. That pic could be obtained later and entered into MJ's file as evidence for the Prosecutor pretty much at leisure in the months following 6/25/09, considering the autopsy wasn't completed (and submitted) until 9/9/09, that pic wouldn't have needed to exist until then.
What is the benefit of using a corpse on 6/25/09 to be transported from Carrolwood to UCLA? There has to be a reason if it's a viable theory. Someone has to have an answer or the theory has to be scrapped once and for all.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 25, 2011, 12:37:54 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4mpyY1jlkY[/youtube]
@3:20 MJ arriving at 12:58am
@7:10 a car leaving Carolwood at 1:06am, possibly MJ, so that could mean no Live MJ from Carolwood to UCLA and this could be the time that MJ slipped away (@MJonmind)
....So from Carolwood to UCLA, the only people who would POSSIBLY come into contact with MJ that are not in on the hoax is while the ambo is coming out of the Carolwood residence or other nurses and doctors at UCLA.
....This could possibly mean that there was a dummy used...which seems to be more logical then say, nothing in the ambo.
Because what if someone who is not in the hoax, saw them bringing MJ into UCLA or leaving Carolwood and saw nothing on the gurney...it would be risky...so by having a dummy, MJ keeps the key players in the hoax (the only ones who had contact with the gurney or ambo (Paramedics, the two UCLA doctors and the Bodyguards)) while the other UCLA staff who might of seen MJ come in on the gurney only saw from afar e.g down the corridor at UCLA etc. and they would think it's him because it looks like someone and it looks like MJ (dummy).
Also this has been brought up many times and may mean more then just the fact that MJ likes to play practical jokes...when Lou Ferrigno said that Michael Jackson used to play pranks on the paps, by sending an ambulance with a mannequin of himself in it...so it gets me thinking that MJ was possibly testing this out to see if it could possibly work, if he had to do it for real in the near future.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 25, 2011, 12:59:57 AM
What about a combination of Live MJ and Dummy?
Remember, we are just talking about Carrolwood--->UCLA. Beyond that stage is irrelevant to 7b.MJonmind, the million dollar question is... for what purpose?
What benefit?
Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?
So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.
Good question bec. Maybe real corpse intended to fool fans, prosecutors and court who bring Murray to trial, found guilty, and will convict for manslaughter.
So are you saying the gurney pic is a real dead body that looks *exactly* MJ? I thought the dead MJ double was debunked officially.
Because this is the only time the fans, the prosecutors, and the court "saw" the dead body... in that pic in court. So if you're saying a real corpse's use is designed to fool these people, that's what you're referring to. There's no other instance these people (entity) come into contact with a dead MJ body, other then the ambulance pic (proven staged prior). Even if that were the case, that the intent was to fool fans/prosecutors/court, you wouldn't need to send a corpse from Carrolwood to UCLA on 6/25/09 shortly after 1pm for the purpose of fooling people 28 months later in the form of a pic. That pic could be obtained later and entered into MJ's file as evidence for the Prosecutor pretty much at leisure in the months following 6/25/09, considering the autopsy wasn't completed (and submitted) until 9/9/09, that pic wouldn't have needed to exist until then.
What is the benefit of using a corpse on 6/25/09 to be transported from Carrolwood to UCLA? There has to be a reason if it's a viable theory. Someone has to have an answer or the theory has to be scrapped once and for all.
Here is whatt I think about Ben's ambulance picture: he could not take the picture to sell, he photoshopped the only we have got and sold it. Here is why I come up with that theory: remember Ben said:"Wherever Michael is, there is always money to make", then I recall Joe and his lawyer that said picture of amb is photoshopped. Sp, Ben is NOT in hoax.
I don't care about numerology and long time MJ plan to escape. but what I /we observe, brings to 1 reality, MICHAEL HOAXES DEATH BECAUSE OF MURDER ATTEMPT NOT TO FOOL PEOPLE, MJ wants to TAKE OVER PEOPLE WHO ANNOYED HIM AND FINALLY WANTED HIM DEAD FOR MONEY. We forgot that so far we don't even have real theory of WHY MJ did this? Hoax has to have a valid motive, again it is NOT a praknster joke of Michael because Michael would not hurt fans-non believers faking death for joke. Design theories based on serious motive behind it, then will be easy to know who got to UCLA.
Now, my theory is, real Michael was taken to UCLA and possibly was in clinical death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death at the time because I don't believe Murray is in hoax. But then I remember Jermain who said Michael was not with us, was in airport, and getting confused, maybe it was not a slip up, but clue that Michael is not dead and is out of the USA, but it does not necessarilly mean Michael was that night or morning or afternoon in the airport. That said, Michael was taken to UCLA and saved over there, brought back to life and right there family kidnapped him and Jermain announced MJ's death . In this scenario, only family, couple of bodyguards, coroner, and couple of UCLA and authority staff are in hoax. Not paramedics, not Murray, not Ben, not fake fans, not tour shuttle.....too much people cannot be in hoax, not realistic. That's all for now.
Post by: bec on November 25, 2011, 01:35:55 AM
So you're saying the numerology is a coincidence? The date is a coincidence? The time is a coincidence? I do not accept these premises and you offer no reasoning, no proof, no supporting evidence, not now and not ever in the past. You just repeat that over and over in slightly different ways. You can't just conjure it up and call it a legitimate theory. You need back up info with that theory, scorpionchick, if you want it taken seriously. Because as it stands, it's just not plausible.
BUT.
EVEN IF IT WAS.
2 UCLA doctors testified to working on a body, (you claim actually MJ? Or a dead person? Unclear in your theory) for 2 hours and 5 minutes. That's completely preposterous in the real world.
Paramedics backed out of a circular driveway, needing 2 takes to get straight through the gates, and took their sweet time pulling forward, in what you claim was, a real emergency.
No IV was present in the stretcher pics entering UCLA on what, you claim, was really MJ fighting for his life.
The stretcher was elevated at the head carrying, what you claim was, MJ fighting for his life.
Or was it a corpse?
Quote
Good question bec. Maybe real corpse intended to fool fans, prosecutors and court who bring Murray to trial, found guilty, and will convict for manslaughter.
But then you speculate:
Quote
Now, my theory is, real Michael was taken to UCLA and possibly was in clinical death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death at the time because I don't believe Murray is in hoax.
<snip>
That said, Michael was taken to UCLA and saved over there, brought back to life and right there family kidnapped him and Jermain announced MJ's death .
So which is it, scorpionchick? Do you know? Have you thought it through? You can't have a dead body and MJ fighting for his life both going to UCLA in an ambulance. There was only one ambulance @Carrolwood that day.
Quote
I don't care about numerology
I think it's that you don't understand it.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 25, 2011, 02:00:35 AM
Just go head everybody with your theories full of fantasy and I will be just watchin. TIME WILL SHOW.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 02:01:47 AM
OK, 1 hour or so left moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 25, 2011, 02:02:42 AM
QuoteLevel 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.
There are 5 major theories that we started kicking around during 7a discussions:
- Live MJ
- Real Dead Body
- Live MJ Double
- Dummy
- Nothing
Live MJ:
Pros:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"
Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process
Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening
Cons:
Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient
Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving
Live MJ Double:
Pros:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"
Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process
Allows the real MJ to "escape" undetected long before the events of Day Zero begin
Cons:
Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient
Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving
Risk of mistakes; MJ hands the reins of this project, along with the responsibility of a live performance/no do-overs to someone else
Additional person required to be in on it
Real Dead Body
Pros:
Allows UCLA docs and Paramedics and Coroner to tell the truth regarding responsiveness/clinical death
Keeps up appearances to unauthorized personnel, it really IS a corpse
Allows legal documents to be "less" fake-- someone really DID die
Cons:
UCLA Docs and Coroner would still be participating in deception, bcuz the body could not be ID'ed as MJ-- accepted truth, statistical impossibility: an MJ double with vitiligo and some matching scars died on 6/25/09, nor would doctors or the coroner be fooled by a preserved (/or frozen) corpse.
Would be unrecognizable as MJ prompting suspicion from unauthorized personnel who happen to see the body
Possible legality issues upon reveal, desecration of a corpse, tampering with a corpse, abuse of a corpse, failure to report a death
Morality issues in public relations upon reveal
Legal documents are still fake, they ID the corpse as MJosephJ
Dummy
Pros:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"
Cons:
Storage and disposal-- how do you get rid of it after the fact? A life-size MJ dummy floating around not locked down after the events of 6/25/09 would be a massive risk.
It wouldn't fool medical personnel
Nothing
Pros:
??
Cons:
If anyone sees an empty ambulance that isn't supposed to see an empty ambulance (at either end), immediate strong suspicion might be raised and considering MJs typical appearances in the news, could cast doubt over the entire affair right off the bat.
Please feel free to add to these categories as I certainly didn't compile the full list for each. I probably missed more then several points. It might help narrow things down.
I came in thinking it was probably nothing that went to UCLA on 6/25/09 but now I'm back to the Live MJ theory. There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day. The Pros of MJ doing it himself on that list are too many and too important to ignore (major benefits), especially compared with the other main options we have presented.[/list]
I think this is a great way to investigate, although besides the pros and cons, we could add "supporting evidence" and "contradicting evidence". I will use this same list.
Post by: curls on November 25, 2011, 02:06:05 AM
@Bec, I had to laugh at your post and keeness to get the ball rolling! I have a very similar post with options, pros and cons which was waiting in the wings and is now pretty much useless due to your better worded one!
Thinking about 7b really highlights the importance of knowing just who is in on it. And I'm aware that TS said we are sometimes too quick to solve problems by saying so and so must be in on it! (not a direct quote but words to that effect)
But if we have bodyguards, paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA and coroner 'in on it' (and I hope it's safe to say they are, due to their involvement in the trial) then essentially there is no need for anything to be transported, except perhaps, at most, a load of sheets crumpled up and arranged in a 'body' shape on the stretcher to satisfy any unexpected sightings - easier to dispose of when no longer needed than the other options.
If these people are part of the hoax, then there is no-one to 'fool', and therefore no need for corpses, dummies, doubles or live MJ. No NEED - and much as I like the fun idea of MJ acting it all out himself, there is no NEED, and there is great risk of blowing everything before it had barely got started.
Not only is there no need for 'anything', there is also a huge benefit which concerns other people (passers-by, hospital personel etc) who may have 'accidentally' seen or come into contact with the 'act' as it was being played out. If there was NOTHING to see, there was nothing for them to see and subsequently possibly question. The risks of a dummy, double, random corpse or live body being seen by unwanted eyes is huge.
So, as of now, in the absence of TS or someone else coming up with some new information, which of course I recognise is a huge possibility, I'm going with the 'NOTHING' option.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 02:12:28 AM
Great!! Thank you curls.
Now the problem is that I think TS is posting from the same hour zone as me WTF??. TIME is really making my head spin like a carousel :lol: :lol: :lol:
Can think only of South Africa .......or the North Pole errrr errrr errrr.. fresse/
Anyway, I think it's safe to go to sleep because probably TS will only post at 11:29 moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ ....or 1:17....or God knows when smiley_spider..
TS posts on USA Pacific Time. The forum default time is set to UTC time (London UK time) and you can change the time in your settings to what you want. Souza helped me with this ages ago.
Hope that helps you Gina. :)
That's what I thought, that TS posts on USA time. But I don't understand why now, if I already set my time here on the forum , why I see TS' original post on this thread at 11:11 AM... ahhh doesn't matter anyway.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 25, 2011, 02:15:24 AM
(http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/10/09/171209-pop-star-michael-jackson-lies-dead-on-a-gurney-in-this-photo-shown-dur.jpg)
Post by: curls on November 25, 2011, 02:21:15 AM
@Curls if you say there doesn't need to be a dummy or corpse then are you saying the whole 'body' was covered up as it was going through UCLA?...and what about the photo they took of MJ at UCLA after the docs stopped working on him, if that was the same day (June 25th 2009) then it couldn't of been 'nothing' unless that was taken another day.
I think all photos, documents etc could have been, and almost certainly were, prepared before or after the event - they are 'props', and there's no need for them to be made 'in real time' so to speak.
As for the whole body being covered, I do seem to remember someone, paramedic possibly, or even Murray, saying they covered MJ's face for privacy when transporting him. Haven't a clue where to look for that snippet now - it's just something filed away in my brain somewhere!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 02:26:07 AM
Quote
Dummy
Pros:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"
Cons:
Storage and disposal-- how do you get rid of it after the fact? A life-size MJ dummy floating around not locked down after the events of 6/25/09 would be a massive risk.
It wouldn't fool medical personnel
Bury it at Forest Lawn :shock:
from bec:
Quote
Live MJ:
Pros:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"
Allows Van Video to be recorded in real time at end of the process
Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening
Cons:
Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient
Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving
May I add at cons Jermaine's slip up about the airport?
Oh and maybe we should also consider what if the DEAD MJ went to UCLA.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 02:29:20 AM
Well I'm not sure about that. If there was a dead body they don't have to be in it, thought it looks like Blunt seems to be in, as he said he recognized MJ on the spot.
Post by: TS_comments on November 25, 2011, 02:34:11 AM
Here we are now, at level 7b. :geek:
We have only a few days left (until 11-29), but 7b and 7c should fall into place rather quickly—especially since I will be handing much of it out on a silver platter.
In 7a, we have debunked the multiple ambulance theories; and have shown that the ambulance videos were both taken at the same time on 6-25-09. Discussion on that subject is now closed on this thread, unless you have read all the previous posts on this thread and have something NEW to contribute; even then, you MUST fulfill ALL THREE of the conditions outlined already (and if you don’t know what they are, it’s because you have not read everything yet). If you go ahead and post without fulfilling these conditions, then expect that your post will be deleted. This is in the interest of keeping on topic; and to avoid cluttering this thread by going over the same ground again and again, merely for the sake of those who are too lazy to read what has already been thoroughly debunked.
One of the clearest ways to know when a theory has been irrefutably debunked, is when those who are still trying to defend the debunked theory have no EVIDENCE left to support the theory—and so they resort to any and all tactics OTHER than evidence, such as insinuating bad motives, or claims of secret evidence which can’t be shared, etc (notice that I have ALWAYS used evidence which is readily available on the internet). And these things have already showed up here in 7a, therefore anyone who REALLY wants the truth (and is not merely CLAIMING to want the truth) may know that all the video-taped ambulance events did occur at Carolwood on June 25, 2009.
It is important that we understand 7a correctly, because it’s a solid foundation upon which we can build to find the answer for the main question in 7b (what went to the hospital in the ambulance?). For example, since the video events really happened on 6-25-09, we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?
Remember this statement, which I made at the beginning of this thread: “Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax.”
For example, do you think that Kai Chase was in on it? If so, why? Would she NEED to be in on it, and what EVIDENCE is there that she is in on it? In fact, have you ever considered whether the CHILDREN were in on it initially (or just informed afterward)? And again, what EVIDENCE do you have on this?
Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.
Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6 (http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6)}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.
To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
As we go through and continue to debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly): no doubt it will cause some to fear that MJ really died, and there is no hoax (and this could be the reason for some of the resistance displayed in 7a). It is true, as Jesus said, that those who build their faith upon the sand will have their house collapse when a storm comes through (see Matthew 7:24-27).
Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).
And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after. And if people who come to this forum after the BAM can see that we have a good solid coherent theory on the how’s, then they will be much more likely to believe that we also have the correct understanding of the why’s.
Post by: curls on November 25, 2011, 02:44:42 AM
What if those 'unauthorised' people happened to catch 'the body' at a moment when it was breathing, moving, coughing, scratching or worse still laughing or 'directing'??? It's too big a risk IMO.
Ooh, now I see TS has posted but I'll post this anyway and then get reading!
Post by: curls on November 25, 2011, 02:51:43 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 03:04:13 AM
You left room for something/a new approach that none of us expected or am I dreaming smiley_spider?
I'm gonna read your post again now.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 03:21:03 AM
Quote
...and have shown that the ambulance videos were both taken at the same time on 6-25-09….. know that all the video-taped ambulance events did occur at Carolwood on June 25, 2009.
Let me have my short moment of satisfaction penguin/ …ok done ;D
Quote
we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?
GREAT IDEA. BUT WHO WERE THEY? CAN WE MAKE A LIST?
CONRAD MURRAY
KAI CHASE
PARIS
PRINCE
BLANKET
ALVAREZ
??????
another guards and some maintenance staff
Quote
The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.
I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance
penguin/ penguin/ penguin/
Quote
then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
....As we go through and continue to debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly).....
Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories.
THIS MAKES ME RAISE AN EYEBROW…NEVER BEEN SUPPORTED BY YOU TS , BUT ONE OF THEM MUST BE TRUE, OR WHAT???? I CAN NOT IMAGINE OTHER SCENARIOS /pull hair/ smiley_spider smiley_spider smiley_spider
Post by: nefertari on November 25, 2011, 03:34:32 AM
MJonmind, the million dollar question is... for what purpose?
What benefit?
Considering the Paramedics, the two UCLA Docs, the Bodyguards, the Coroner we collectively agree have to be in on it, who is a real corpse intended to fool?
So far there has been no answer to that question so to me it's not a very strong theory.
Some of you here have speculated that perhaps a real corpse was needed to hold harmless all such persons who have to be in on it (Paramedics, UCLA doctors, the coroner), in which case, all their statements and documents would be legal.
This seems like a good reason to make this theory very strong
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 25, 2011, 03:47:00 AM
I have some credible information regarding the ?paramedics? that day...but just need a little more evidence before I post it here.
Firstly, if all the staff were sent home before the ambulance left, did that include Kai Chase??
Who was left to be with the children when all the staff were sent home, and was the nanny in the care with them as the bodyguards took off ??
Why were the staff sent home, and who authorised them to be sent away, considering it could be potentially a crime scene???
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 25, 2011, 03:59:30 AM
“Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax.”
For example, do you think that Kai Chase was in on it? If so, why? Would she NEED to be in on it, and what EVIDENCE is there that she is in on it? In fact, have you ever considered whether the CHILDREN were in on it initially (or just informed afterward)? And again, what EVIDENCE do you have on this?
Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again.
So SUCCESS= Least riskiest theory ????
So the possibilities of what went in the ambo are;
-Living double (which is not really a possibility if MJ was declared dead at the house and UCLA...plus if this was a murder or accidental manslaughter there would be no point for a double...and for the hoax if you are going to use a dummy you might as well just use Live MJ, so a living double seems pointless)
-Nobody
-Dummy
-Corpse (Corpse would seem no different then having a dummy instead, if there is a corpse you are likely to have one that doesn't look like MJ and Blunt said he recognized MJ)
This could either be;
-Murder
-Hoax
-Accidental manslaughter
People who were at the house/near the house before LAPD arrived;
-Murray
-Medics
-Chase
-Alverez
-Prince
-Paris
-Blanket
-Ben
-Chris
-Fans
-Other security guards/staff
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 04:37:27 AM
CONRAD MURRAY
KAI CHASE
PARIS
PRINCE
BLANKET
ALVAREZ
NANNY (sorry I don't know her name)
security and maintenance staff
????
Faheem Muhammad the chief of security testified he arrived later and saw MJ apearred dead
Michael Amir Williams - the assistant - arrived later, only when the ambulance was ready to go to UCLA. He took the children with him .and they followed the ambulance...?!?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-trial-kids-prince-paris-cried-conrad/story?id=14623265
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 25, 2011, 04:45:47 AM
Live MJ:
No need for this. He directs this either way, he doesn't have to be on the scene for that. If all this was carefully planned with people he trusted (and/or let them sign killer contracts), he would not have to be anywhere near the mansion, he even didn't have to be in the US. It would require everyone in on it that was in the room at the 25th, the paramedics, the doctors and the coroner.
Live double:
Same story, the only pro with this would be that MJ could be long gone, but then what is the use of a live double, when everyone seeing the 'body' has to be in on it anyway. Nothing at all would have done the trick too in that case.
Nothing:
Still makes the most sense to me, unless the sting is against people who have actually seen the body. If there is nothing to see, there is nothing to risk. Someone could say that they didn't see a body, but what would that prove? That MJ is alive? No, it could mean they didn't see it very well. When someone would say that they did see someone, but that it moved or was breathing, then you could have a problem. This also means the less amount of change: simply remove MJ from the scene. A dummy or a corpse would mean an addition to the scenario.
Dummy:
Makes sense too, even if it would just be for transportation purposes. They could have transported it exactly as was reported, and even have it buried in that coffin. Would explain why the body still looked stunning after being dead for 10 weeks (see La Toya's book). This would still require the same amount of people in on it though.
Corpse:
Would only make sense in my book if the sting is against one or more people that actually saw the body: Murray, Security, Paramedics, ER doctors, Coroner and I think one or two detectives from the LAPD. If the sting would be against the DA (Cooley), then a dead body would not be necessary, because as far as we all know, Cooley never saw the corpse. Walgren and Brazil are in on it if you ask me, but even if they weren't, they haven't seen a dead body either. If it were a sting against the detectives, then I would like to know why. If they really saw a dead body, and were told that the body was MJ's by professionals (coroner), then why would they doubt that? They did mention the unidentified fingerprints for example, it's up to the DA to make the case. Now we know from the trial that the evidence was tampered with, but how would the detectives gain from that? It would mean that someone gave them orders to do so and that would probably be from someone who did NOT see a body, so again no corpse is needed, unless the detectives are part of it too to see if they would take the money. But if this were all true: let's say Cooley would be the target, then how could they have known in advance that Cooley would even do this or that the detectives would take the money? That he would go through all this trouble to have Murray on trial. If there was a murder plot that he knew of and he wanted to have Murray behind bars for that to cover up the murder plot, then why just one count in a case full of holes? There was enough reasonable doubt in my opinion, so if this was all real with a real jury, it could have easily go the other way. The success for this sort of sting seems too unlikely in my opinion and it doesn't make much sense. The coroner can't be fooled with a corpse as I have said earlier. In order to fool the coroner and have him make an AR based on truth, they would have had to kill a healthy man on the scene with propofol. That seems a little too far-fetched and unrealistic. I also don't see why there should be a sting against anyone else that saw or handled the body, and if there is a sting against some officials, a body would not be needed if they didn't see it, all that has to be done is making false documents.
The corpse could have been used to have less people in on it and have them testify truthfully though, and the one that would be 100% sure that the body wasn't MJ, is the coroner. But the deputy also testified, so that would mean he lied under oath. And if you have one lying under oath, I don't see how others couldn't. It simply shows that this was not a real case, i.e. Kangaroo Court.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 25, 2011, 04:50:09 AM
Kids could have been left in the dark to make it more realistic for the staff, seeing the kids in distress. It seems a bit cruel, but it's possible and if they would not be sure the kids could act the right way, then why not? Although I tend to think that the kids knew beforehand. Maybe not Blanket, but the oldest two.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 05:21:07 AM
And that thing with the soup that was still in the refrigerator...why so much attention to that soup at the trial? Ms. Brazil makes sure Kai testifies that the soup remained untouched. Maybe because MJ wasn't there anymore?
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 25, 2011, 05:37:39 AM
In a recent video of La Toya speaking at a presentation she was reinforcing in her speech the need to watch the Illusionist, she said we are watching the right hand (media) and something else is going on over here (left hand) I believe you La Toya I really do :shock: :lol:
La Toya said that the children told her that Randy Phillips was at the home when MJ returned from rehersals but that they went to bed before their Dad got back because it was late, so that left Randy Phillips in the house when Michael returned on the evening of the 24th ..... question is, is it here that MJ said to him "I can take it from here"? or was Randy Phillips at the home for a more sinister reason? afraid/
Why didnt we here in court that Randy Phillips was at the house that night /cook/
Post by: Suzy7 on November 25, 2011, 05:56:34 AM
You mentioned the idea that maybe the children were uninformed prior to that date; I tend to think they were because I don't exactly believe MJ would do that. If, for the sake of realistic appearance for staff and others they saw at the hospital, then maybe they were not informed until later in the day. I don't think this scenario was necessary but I don't have evidence either way.
Kai does not need to be involved at all. If a corpse or dummy was brought in the night/early morning prior, then she nor anyone else, know it was not Michael. Kai arrived on June 25 in the AM and left the premises before the stretcher was brought downstairs. (I include *other* staff in this category if they were there.)
Alvarez/Faheem were in on it because of the staged 911 call and the discrepancies in recalling the events etc.
Dr. Murray was ofcourse in the know and his role is self explanatory in my opinion. As Jermaine said "He must have been paid handsomely for "killing" MJ...". His role is much like the doctor in The Illusionist and IS needed.
I once very much supported the MJ was there throughout everything that day as I didn't think it was a "fanciful" theory at all. I did realize it IS, and as TS said there are far more risks than benefits. If MJ messed up this once in a lifetime chance just for mere fun, he could not do it again because he would be like the boy who cried wolf. Thusly, no one would believe it and the numerology HAD to happen the way it did as it was planned for far too long.
Therefore I think a corpse and/or dummy was used for sake of realism in events. A corpse wouldn't had to have "fooled" anyone other than the extra hospital staff etc., and makes more sense.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 06:08:42 AM
I'm not saying Kai is in but she looks pretty close to the children and I think it is a little risky, with her there so close, to let her out of the hoax. Let's suppose she really could have decided to see for herself what was wrong with Michael when Murray came downstairs yelling frantic. Then what? How could they have prevented her to go upstairs and see what's going on? I know they couldn't have stopped ME crash/ crash/ crash/
It's also strange that when she's asked if she saw Prince going upstairs after SHE called him, she said she DIDN'T see Prince going upstairs WTF?? WTF??? How she didn't see him when she called him there :? ?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 06:16:31 AM
Post by: Suzy7 on November 25, 2011, 06:29:18 AM
-The room was heated, and both paramedics and hospital staff said the patient was dead for a long time prior to 911 being called. A corpse (or dummy) is ofcourse very much "D.O.A." or "dead on arrival".
Some statements from people who handled the body include:
*Blount said patient was dead at house and the patient had flatlined when hooked up to monitor.
*Dr. Cooper stated on stand in court, "Mr. Jackson was dead long before he became a patient."
*Dr. Cooper pronounced patient dead twice. Once on the phone with paramedics and again at the hospital.
-Paramedic couldn't recognize the patient.
- The body would be used merely for realism and to avoid "exposure of hoax" risks.
If the hospital staff (two doctors) were not in on it, they could have been encouraged by Murray to work on it until the announced death time or were told to wait until a specfic time for an unknown reason to them.
-In court, Walgren mentioned experiments on people using propofol, and coincidently, anesthesiology students use corpses for experimentation. Michael allegedly died of "propofol intoxication" an anesthetic.
I also want to add that if just Blanket didn't know about the hoax beforehand; it could explain why Latoya said Blanket believed Michael was on "vacation". He most likely wouldn't have, and even now, really understand the hoax being so young.
Another point is if anyone on scene that day who was not "in the know" found out about the hoax, they could have been told to not say anything by government official's (FBI/Police given their involvement) because of the seriousness of Michael's circumstance and/or forced to sign a confidentiality agreement.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 25, 2011, 06:37:38 AM
Were they not supposed to see something that morning?
So only Murray, was in the room, Alverez witnessed a dead body being worked on,
Amir was there to help get the cars ready, and so was Mohammed....
So just Murray and the paramedics and the children and some bodyguards......witnessed everything..
Post by: Suzy7 on November 25, 2011, 06:41:08 AM
Remember no one was allowed upstairs, I'm sure security would have stopped her if she wasn't in the hoax and tried to go up. Maybe also, Murray really did stay with Michael for a few weeks/months and got him his juice lol, who knows.
We'll find out anyway, that's what this thread is for.
@2good2btrue Security, I believe either Faheem or Amir sent the staff home.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 06:53:19 AM
9 other staff members were sent home before MJ was transported to UCLA..I presume they were the homehelp....but who ordered them to go home, and why were they sent home ??
Were they not supposed to see something that morning?
So only Murray, was in the room, Alverez witnessed a dead body being worked on,
Amir was there to help get the cars ready, and so was Mohammed....
So just Murray and the paramedics and the children and some bodyguards......witnessed everything..
Kai says security asked them to go home, between 13:00 - 13:05
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pl7mSnxjl0&feature=autoplay&list=PLB4309E55BC773624&lf=player_embedded&playnext=2[/youtube]
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 06:57:41 AM
@Gina That is a good point about Kai and the juice. TS mentioned *need* being key and there is no need for her to be in the know, but perhaps she is.
Remember no one was allowed upstairs, I'm sure security would have stopped her if she wasn't in the hoax and tried to go up. Maybe also, Murray really did stay with Michael for a few weeks/months and got him his juice lol, who knows.
We'll find out anyway, that's what this thread is for.
@2good2btrue Security, I believe either Faheem or Amir sent the staff home.
Security wasn't there when Murray came downstairs yelling frantic, in fact he asked KAI "Get help, get security, get Prince!!!" So there wasn't any security at that moment who could have stopped her going upstairs.
Post by: paula-c on November 25, 2011, 07:37:26 AM
Why this video is so poor in quality? And it is precisely the time it enters the stretcher to the ambulance and may not be observed if someone or something is there.
(http://www.smiletheweb.com/mj/Behind-the-fence-02.gif)
Post by: _Anna_ on November 25, 2011, 07:43:30 AM
- How do we know for sure the paramedics are paramedics and not people hired in the “team” (i.e. Michael’s team) to play paramedics;
- How do we know that the doctors are the real doctors (R. Cooper, etc.) and not people hired in the team to play doctors;
- How do we know the 911 call was made to 911 and it’s not a recording; that wouldn’t need anyone in besides an “operator” and Alvarez to record a “call”;
- How do we know there was any staff at UCLA that day; what if they used another entrance in less crowded side of the hospital and no one knew what was going on there, besides the people in the team? Or if they signed non-disclosure agreements, they won’t open the mouth. Maybe they chose UCLA for a reason. Maybe this hospital is up to such things and they knew it could be done there.
- The people at the house must know; there’s no reason why they wouldn’t. The children, Alvarez, Murray, Kai, at least.
- If the court was not real and the judge in (I think about the toys, the elephant, the alarm in the court room, the verdict and the “squiggles” that the judge didn’t comment against), then the people testifying must be in the “team”; how do we know for sure that all the doctors that testified are indeed who they say they are? Walgren said when Flannagan called Murray “Doctor”, he objected and said “that’s not proven” or something like that, and Flannagan said “it’s not proven he’s a doctor?”;
- What if the ambulance and fire truck are props? The ambulance was moving extremely slowly, a person could have died if they moved that slow in an emergency, taking the ambulance out of the gates in 2-3 takes. Ambulance drivers must be very trained.
- Michael would go in the “ambulance” to UCLA in this case; because it would be what Jermaine said in his book- fooling the media on one hand. Wasn’t Michael going out in a wheel chair to be photographed by the media? I see no possible risk by going with the “team” in an “ambulance” to UCLA where people knew what they had to do there. It could be done without him, but WHO could have seen him if he went? What if they arrived, and went into a less crowded side of the hospital – to meet the family and the rest and be sure they do and say as he wants? Wouldn’t be a risk to let this all in other’s hands, be it family? Even if they know, what if the screwed up? And he had to be there to tie loose ends and make sure they do as he wants.
- Why UCLA didn’t release any statement if they are not in? What if Michael has relations in high places, including UCLA, that allowed him to do this?
This is something I thought of and I thought a lot whether to post this all or not, but a logical way for me to make this possible is if you have a team (people hired to do this, of high confidence). You cannot do it alone and base yourself they won’t notice (people at the hospital, paramedics, etc.). And if they are real doctors/paramedics you can risk they will screw up. But if they are your team, they don’t work as paramedics, doctors, they are what you would call “actors”. People Michael would trust that won’t risk their job or anything by doing it. What if Michael knows people at UCLA, high people. He could just say he needs UCLA as “studio” to film this. And they could sign an agreement, for a lot of money. And this goes for EVERYONE from then on.
I’m not sure it ties all up together perfectly, I can't know everything that Michael does, but at the moment I wanted to share my thoughts. I know I can be wrong. But I remember BACK saying that with the people Michael knows, he can do a lot of things. Michael has come to know every president, high profile people, key people in society that could help him pull this off. I remember BACK saying "Don't worry, they won't try to do something knowing he has me on his team". Implying Michael has very strong people on his side.Why couldn't some key people in police, key people at UCLA, key people at the coroners, key people in justice field be in? If Michael has relations with such powerful people, this is possible. He wouldn't need the entire police, the entire justice system, the entire FBI, but some key people that could allow him to do it. Key people in these fields that would show another side to the public, while having an agreement with Michael. And it's Hollywood, where things are more possible than in other places. The others would be powns. As in a pyramid: people at the top know, while the lower you get, they just have to know what they have to do, but not in direct contact with the plot.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 25, 2011, 09:41:01 AM
As to my opinion of whether it was a dummy or a real dead/live body taken in the ambulance, after seeing what could be done with dummies these days, I go with that theory. If this was planned then there is no reason for Michael to hae been in that ambulance and more than likely not even in that house when these things took place. It would have been more difficult for him to escape from the hospital unnoticed after he had arrived in the ambulance so to me that risk would have been unnecessary. I believe he was long gone some time before then. However, I do still believe that he staged some of the pictures beforehand. And I believe that Kai Chase was in on it. Otherwise, she would have been more alarmed and emotional and asked more questions of a screaming Conrad. The children I do not think were in on it and were distraught when they saw the state of the dummy when they came upstairs thinking it was really their father. Otherwise, I don’t think they would have trekked upstairs uninvited. But as children, if they were in ear range of Murray’s distress, they would not have heeded instruction to not venture into MJ’s room when they thought their father was in serious medical trouble. They followed their hearts. Maybe as thought out beforehand by Conrad to make it appear datroot.
My question is this, what is the relevance of Murray and Alvarez having different stories about what happened in that room? Was in intended that they be on two accords? If so, why? I’m having trouble with this piece because I do believe that also Murray Amir and Alvarez was in on it.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 25, 2011, 10:27:46 AM
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And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after.
Sometimes, when trying to solve a 'brainteaser', I tend to work backwards...i.e. come up with a 'theory' of the end result/purpose (the 'why'), then with that in mind go back and try to fill in the blanks of how the end was reached (the 'how(s)'). This has been difficult (for me) in this instance because TS separated the level into 3 parts and asked that we tackle them in order. However, out of all the 'parts' he could've come up with for Level 7...TS chose 1) was there an ambulance at Carolwood that went to UCLA on June 25th; 2) what or who was in that ambulance; and 3) was it for a sting or simply a hoax. The first two parts deal with the 'hows', the last part deals with the 'why'.
Based on the way he set-up Level 7, it's easier for me to come up with a 'theory' for the 'why', then work backwards...because depending on the 'why', certain 'hows' become irrelevant. For example, if the whole thing was simply for the purposes of a hoax (i.e. no sting, just Mike having fun and/or teaching the media or fans a lesson), then IMO a real corpse would not be necessary because neither the media nor the fans ever saw a 'dead' MJ. However, if the 'why' involves a sting, a real serious sting, then that changes things depending on WHO the target of the sting is.
I'm still wrapping my head around certain points to strengthen my 'end theory' but I do believe that the 'why' of all this is for serious reasons...I do not believe that MJ would've gone through this whole thing just for fun, or simply to make a movie (although that could be a part of it...but not the main reason), or simply to get back at the media and/or fans. I think it goes much deeper than that. So, although I may very well end up being wrong (and I'm perfectly ok with being wrong...my 'faith' in MJ being alive is rock-solid, so being wrong about anything else doesn't worry me)...I'm gonna work off my initial 'end theory' that there is a sting involved (I tackled this in the Sept 27 thread but kept reaching dead ends, or at least I didn't go as deep into the theory as I could have or maybe should have).
So...IF there was a sting (7c) and this would affect who or what was in the ambulance (7b), which we know was at Carolwood on June 25th (7a)....then WHO was the target of the sting? Again, I say IF because, at this point, I can't prove whether or not there was a sting...I'm just working on a 'theory'....but IF 7c affects 7b, then the target of the sting could have been in the house. We have been going on the assumption that the people who saw the 'body' in house were all in on it....but perhaps we've been wrong in assuming that. Either that (i.e. the target is someone who was in the house) OR the target is someone who has a 'connection' to someone in the house (i.e. a thwarted murder attempt).
I do believe Murray is in on it and therefore not the target of any sting (this wouldn't make sense anyway because he was found guilty, so where's the sting?). The kids obviously wouldn't be a target. This leaves only Amir, Faheem, and Alvarez prior to paramedics arriving (Kai never saw the body). IF these 3 can be eliminated as possible sting targets (and I tend to believe that the 911 call was fake, so I'm thinking that Alvarez would be in on it---but my 'logic' could be wrong there)...then the only other 'target' I can think of would be someone who was NOT in the house but has a 'connection' to someone who WAS in the house.
Does any of this make any sense? lol I have to think on it some more and try to strengthen or debunk the 'end theory' one way or another...but this is how I'm looking at it. IF we go with the 'sting' theory, and TS is asking us to think of WHO was in the house prior to paramedics arriving, then that may put a different spin on things.
But I concede that in working backwards, you risk screwing up the 'hows' IF the 'end theory' is wrong to begin with...which is just what I may be doing :lol:. Perhaps this is just one of the 'fanciful' theories TS referred to.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 25, 2011, 11:31:58 AM
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Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.
Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.
To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
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Live MJ:
Pros:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"
Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening
There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day.
Cons:
Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient
Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving
I await your attempts at process of elimination of the Live MJ theory and I'm hoping you address some of the points I brought up, TS, because I did not include "Because it's fun" as a Pro in support of the theory. I have thrown that out in the past, in conversation, but when it comes to the nitty gritty reality of it, I set it aside... because you have to.
So, "fun" part thrown out the window, what have you addressed? It couldn't be live MJ in the ambulance because TII was billed as "different" then what we would expect from MJ? Well clearly, nearly his entire fan base would call a hoax definitely DIFFERENT then the MJ they know, as proven by their vast numbers supporting the death scenario... so MJ is already behaving DIFFERENTLY... and I do not accept that it is logical that the byline DISCOVER THE MAN YOU NEVER KNEW was addressed only to hoaxers, especially considering the line "FOR THE FANS..." heralded the opening of the movie.
Success of the project trumps fun, agreed, which is why I didn't list FUN as a Pro in support of the Live MJ theory.
Again, change only what you need to change. MJ in that ambulance from Carrolwood--->UCLA abides by this investigation method in it's purest form. The only thing that needs to be changed is the DEAD part. Everything else stays the same.
We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).
Considering we are only dealing with the scene at the house and traveling to UCLA, and being unloaded just outside the door, and subsequently ushered through to the private ER wing; what witnesses are we concerned with seeing Live MJ move/breathe/cough necessitating something being used that would play dead better then MJ himself?
Those are brief potential views... extremely brief and extremely limited opportunities.
-Through a crack in the fence, as Ben's video illustrates---VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ANYTHING CLEARLY, you're not going to be able to stop and stare hard enough to see if the "patient"s chest is rising and falling (breathing). In order to see that you would have to have an uninterrupted view of the rib cage area for at least 4 full seconds (15-20 breaths/minute=average respiration rate).
-Through the ambulance window-- Again, unlikely from the start, just because it would be difficult for anyone to get past large security man and Ben's team to sneak a peak. Even if they did, again, you have the 4 second need to witness respiration.
-While being unloaded at UCLA-- We see the ambulance having backed almost directly up to the doorway of the ER, allowing Paramedics quick and direct access to getting inside. Anyone who might get a view of the stretcher here, again, isn't going to be able to see past security and paramedics for 4 uninterrupted seconds to see MJ breathing.
-While being rushed through the ER en-route to the private wing MJ's entourage reportedly was ushered into. Again, with bodyguards and paramedics surrounding the stretcher, no one unauthorized is going to get a 4 second uninterrupted view of MJ's rib cage to determine if he is breathing or not.
I am hard pressed to find a situation from loading at Carrolwood to unloading at UCLA ("who or what went to UCLA that day") where anyone not in on the hoax would get an uninterrupted 4 second view of the "body" and thus making "possibly seeing Live MJ breathe" a major concern and therefore RISK to this theory.
Again, just focus on this one aspect: Carrolwood--->UCLA for purposes of my post and support or finding holes in the Live MJ theory. Helicopter and Coroner van are not directly related as a switch to a corpse or dummy could be done @UCLA, and is therefore irrelevant to this post.
So, TS, I am having trouble finding the risk of this theory and consider the benefits I listed:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body" (small glimpses <4 seconds, as explained above)
Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening
strong enough to outweigh the risks in this Live MJ theory. There is risk with every scenario presented, so "risk" alone doesn't debunk anything.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 25, 2011, 11:54:15 AM
The only thing, at this point, that I can see as a 'problem' with what you've outlined is these points you made:
Quote
We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).
Do we KNOW all this to be true or are we assuming it's all true? This is sorta what I was getting at in my previous post...we've been assuming that those in the house that saw the 'body' were ALL in on it. Could we be wrong? What 'proof' do we have that they were ALL in on it, other than concluding they were because it makes 'sense'?
I'm not doubting your points...just trying to do as TS suggested and find the 'evidence' that backs how/why we 'know' they were ALL in on it. As I mentioned in my post, I tend to think the 911 call was fake. Because it was Alvarez who supposedly made the call, it follows (in my mind anyway) that he would have to be in on it. But could that 'logic' be wrong? I don't know...that's what I'm trying to piece together. Same with Murray...I'm pretty confident that he's in on it because we KNOW it's a hoax and he would have to be in on it considering he's the prime 'player' in the death scene. But how do we KNOW that Amir and Mohammad were 'in on it' though, or Kai for that matter (although I don't think she necessarily would've had to be in on it)? We need to find/come up with 3 strong points supporting them being in on it and I'm not saying there isn't any, I'm just saying that I'm having a hard time coming up with 'proof' that would stand up in a court of law as to them being 'in on it'.
Any suggestions/points that would help move the 'assumption' of them being 'in on it' to a strong theory of them being 'in on it' would greatly help at this point.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 25, 2011, 12:11:38 PM
Straight off the bat we have the Bodyguards fist bumping in the driveway outside Carrolwood that day. "Congrats/well done/we are awesome" body language caught on film. I'm sorry I don't have access to a link to this tape right now, perhaps someone else has it off hand? It's difficult to say these men are doing anything other then celebrating. They are either in on the hoax, or in on a murder attempt. Murder has been debunked several times (and in several ways) over the past 2+ years, I'll not rehash it again now.
As you noted, the 911 call. We accept this is staged, and Alvarez was the speaker and SAYS he placed the call, so he MUST be in on it. If he says he dialed 911, and clearly DID NOT, he has little reason to lie except to keep up appearances for hoax purposes.
Also, Alvarez's testimony directly contradicts the testimony of the Paramedics (on the bed/on the floor).
Also, Alvarez testifying that he completed that laundry list of events (froze/picked up bags/IV bag in bag/reached for phone/ushered kids/etc) all within a span of 2 minutes that day, BEFORE dialing 911, which most agree is an impossibility.
As far as the others/more supportive evidence? I'll ponder on it and report back with more after work today.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 25, 2011, 12:29:51 PM
Interesting. To me it was always clear that this is not an involuntary manslaughter, but no murder...? Then why Michael would realize this hoax if it is not for murder nor for fun ? Then WHY? If there was no assassination attempt, then NO STING or FBI is on it for sure as it was suggested before by the same TS. Now it is more inconsistent with previous TIAI levels.
Moreover, if no murder attempt, why put Murray on trial and what if he gets max. conviction, would that be a part of a hoax for fun or revenge to somebody else?
I still think only bodyguards are in hoax, kids possibly were informed later. If Michael was not in ambulance, then Murray and paramedics should be in or corpse was used to fool CM and paramedics if it is possible at all. But I still highly doubt that Murray is in hoax and will not support my opinion. Just like that.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 25, 2011, 12:41:18 PM
I meant to add that that doesn’t necessarily mean he wil actually “serve’ all or any of it behind prison bars.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 25, 2011, 12:55:50 PM
Quote
"Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc)."
...is that he is referring to ANY theories that involve MJ really being dead...whether through murder or accidental manslaughter. I don't think he is referring to any potential 'attempted' murder plot that was thwarted...so he is not now going against anything he's ever said in the past TIAI threads (i.e. TS has ALWAYS maintained that MJ is NOT dead).
Moreover, as bec pointed out, an actual murder was long ago debunked. However, I don't think a thwarted murder plot was ever debunked (if it was, I missed it). How realistic/possible is a theory of a murder plot that was thwarted? I'm not sure...but I'm trying to make 'sense' of this scenario...even if just to eliminate it as a possibility.
The bodyguards that 'fist pump' are difficult to 'make out' in the video...do we know who they are? It would make 'sense' that whoever they are, they are congratulating each other on a job well done. But, are they doing so because they were successful in carrying out a hoax OR are they doing so because they believe they carried out a murder? Again, the first option seems more likely to me...but I would be hard-pressed to find proof of that to back the claim.
Perhaps the thwarted murder theory is too 'out there' and if it is, I REALLY hope TS jumps in soon to set that straight (before I go off on my tangents and waste time on this where my time would be better spent looking at more likely scenarios). Or if anyone else can come up with solid reasons as to why the thwarted murder/conspiracy plot theory is not plausible...that would greatly help as well.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Andrea on November 25, 2011, 12:58:26 PM
I had suggested that Michael’s participation in the events that day would be “thrilling” for him (and I’m sure it would’ve been) but it is not the only reason I think he was there. I again agree with bec that Michael being there provides a certain credibility for all those involved, apart from the dead/resuscitation attempts bits. Those bits were added in for the hoax script. Because however you look at it, there indeed was a script to follow if we are to believe Michael is alive (which we do). And once again, a dead body is not going to fool medical professionals.
I believe Kai is in on it. There’s too much risk for her not to be as a person would not (typically) react the way she did when she heard something was wrong.
Alvarez is definitely in on it, IMO. His voice was on the staged 911 call and, while this is a personal opinion, he seemed overly nervous when testifying at the trial, like he was afraid he would slip up somehow.
As for the children, I don’t know if Michael would put them through that (them not knowing) or not. I mean, Paris had the world crying when she spoke of her dad at the Memorial but apart from that, the children appeared bored during it - which would tell me they knew at that point. So if Paris can fool a world-wide audience, she and Prince can “react” the way we’ve heard (and surrounded by people they are comfortable with) once again for other-witness credibility.
That's all for now, lunch break is almost done and people are coming back into the office...
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 01:43:39 PM
1. keeps the whole LAFD out of it - with the mentioning that paramedic Blunt said he recognized MJ on the spot - so maybe he was taken later into the hoax to create confusion in the scenario - because one paramedic said he didn't recognize MJ at all, the other said he recognized MJ on the spot- well that's confusion (I remember at first the media reported that paramedics didn't recognize Mj at all, the patient looked like an old frail Asian man, ill, so I was surprised at the trial when Blunt said he recognized MJ right away, so I was thinking maybe he was taken in the hoax later, I mean after June 25th, to make it less obvious to the public that it could be something wrong about MJ's death because the paramedics didn't recognize him)
2. would explain the overheated room;
3. would eliminate the risk of someone accidentally getting a glimpse into the ambulance and seeing nobody there;
4. would explain why the paramedics said the patient was dead when they arrived, and also the doctors at UCLA saying the same thing - dead on arrival;
5. not 100% sure but it could have fooled UCLA emergency doctors, leaving them out of the hoax, but on the other hand UCLA has to be in the hoax one way or another because they had to be the ones who provided the corpse. So I think UCLA is involved, but not through the emergency doctors. Arnold Klein is linked to UCLA - that's what I know, and I think MJ was in good relations at UCLA with people more in charge than some emergency doctors.
Remember it was said he used to watch surgeries there.
Well I can not think of anything else now but I have a problem with this corpse theory, and the problem is the CORPSE. I mean it's not that easy to find a corpse of some John Doe exactly when you need it to fake your death.
So I'm not sure of anything.
Of course my first option is the corpse of MJ. was in the ambulance :cry:. But let's say he's still alive, hopefully.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 01:47:44 PM
Oh, and it was never mentioned but maybe on the stretcher there were simply some pillows or stuffed toys :shock: (that's my son's theory LOL)
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 25, 2011, 02:00:34 PM
Think about energy waves,magnetic fields, light bodies,channeling, psychic powers, astral projection, different dimensions and frequences, quantum jumping, spirits, angels, E.T's, astrology, sacred geometry, alchemy. Or maybe it's something we don't know yet.
Get ready to learn a new "reality". I think we have to go Waaaaaaaaay outside the box and it might be something we don't know ?????? Just ideas.
Love and Light to all
Post by: paula-c on November 25, 2011, 02:03:37 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 25, 2011, 02:18:19 PM
Post by: Yambo3003 on November 25, 2011, 02:24:14 PM
;D
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 02:27:52 PM
Post by: TS_comments on November 25, 2011, 02:32:03 PM
In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher. And as I have repeatedly stated before: there should be at least two or three strong points, in favor of any conclusion. This case is no exception to that important rule.
First of all, we do NOT have two or three evidences indicating that MJ sat up; we have only the vague photos, but no eyewitnesses or any other evidence that I’ve ever seen, indicating that MJ sat up while going into UCLA. On a side note, although we do not have two or three evidences for MJ sitting up, we do have four CONTRADICTORY hoax theories about MJ going into the hospital (all four of which are wrong): #1 MJ sits up in the stretcher; #2 Murray is really MJ in disguise; #3 MJ is the dark-haired paramedic on the far right; #4 MJ is the last one getting out of the ambulance. NONE of these four theories are supported by at least two or three strong points (nor is it possible for even two of these to be correct, much less all four).
Second, there are several strong points why MJ did not go to UCLA at all on 6-25-09 (which I have already started discussing at the beginning of 7b, and will be going into much more detail shortly). Obviously, if MJ was not on that stretcher going into UCLA, then MJ did not sit up while riding on the stretcher. I will also be debunking the living double theory soon, which means that no living double sat up, either.
Third, the photos could’ve easily been edited, to make it look like MJ was sitting up in the stretcher. However, this is probably not the case, because the last three points below all indicate that the face is actually someone walking on the far side of the stretcher. His face is primarily blocked by all of the other people between him and the camera, although in some of the pictures you can see portions of his face. Likewise, his legs are blocked in almost all of the shots; but there is one shot where you can see one of his legs (see pictures at the end of this post).
Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards! That is possible, of course, especially if he was planning to sit up; therefore, I consider this only a minor point. Please carefully compare these pictures; the second picture (click the link) is a stretcher from the LAFD, just like the one that went into ULCA. You should be able to see three or four things which show that the stretcher went into UCLA feet first {http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy (http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy)}.
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2370/ucla01detalle.jpg)
http://mikesphotos.us:81/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=82810 (http://mikesphotos.us:81/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=82810)
Fifth, there is one person standing in the doorway, who does not move with the stretcher (Heron). This means that unless the mystery face is that of someone walking with the stretcher on the far side of it, then EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera (on the left side and head of it). This of course is possible, but it seems more reasonable that at least one person would be walking the stretcher on the far side (on the right side or foot of it).
Sixth, as stated above, in most of the pictures his legs are blocked by the legs of people closer to the camera; but there is one shot where you can see one of his legs (it’s the third picture in the series of eight). This leg is too wide to be any part of the structure of the stretcher; and it’s too far right to be one of Blount’s legs (see the legs colored in the picture below).
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Level%207/Legs.jpg)
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/LegsColored.jpg)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 02:40:16 PM
Quote
we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?
We know the main "actors on the scene - Murray, Kai, the kids, Alvarez, Faheem - but there were also the housekeepers so from all people there, Murray comes to Kai to scream for help. Where were the others in the house when he came downstairs?
How comes nobody else heard Murray than Kai? So even if she's the only one who heard Murray's scream for help, she's the last one who realizes MJ is in big trouble, because she said she found out from the rest of the staff who was gathered in the entrance hall.
So maybe she is just lying or hiding something.
Or maybe Murray never went downstaires and never called Kai, risking to be accidentally heard by the housekeepers who were not in the hoax.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 02:46:02 PM
Quote
all indicate that the face is actually someone walking on the far side of the stretcher.
YES!! This is what I saw too and posted in this thread penguin/.
Even though it would have been much more exciting if there was really MJ :-\.
Quote
Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards!
exactly!!
Totally agree with you TS . I also counted the legs and there were too many legs there bow/ bow/ bow/
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 02:56:20 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 25, 2011, 02:58:47 PM
I'm getting ready for a night out on the town lol....my kickboxing club's Christmas party...but will check in later tonight (or pop in and out while I'm getting ready). There's been some great posts so far and I'll be thinking about everything being discussed....and looking forward to reading more.
With L.O.V.E. always.
P.S. The Murray being MJ in disguise sure was fun while it lasted :lol: (I can hear PureLove gloating as I type :lol:)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 03:02:29 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 03:07:56 PM
Instead, he let us come up with our own conclusions, in this case (and probably many others lol) wrong...
I wasn't wrong about that and it really feels good.
I am sure I'm wrong about other things though.
About Murray being Michael, I've always thought you guys were just kidding and you never really believed Murray is Michael.
Post by: ilovemjforever on November 25, 2011, 03:15:51 PM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7286/ucla03650.gif)Interesting,thanks for your post TS,u are so awesome,i appreciate u for being our guiding light in these dark and trying times.Can u answer this question for me,who is that stepping out the back of the ambulance?Is that MJ,or is it just an illusion.
In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher. And as I have repeatedly stated before: there should be at least two or three strong points, in favor of any conclusion. This case is no exception to that important rule.
First of all, we do NOT have two or three evidences indicating that MJ sat up; we have only the vague photos, but no eyewitnesses or any other evidence that I’ve ever seen, indicating that MJ sat up while going into UCLA. On a side note, although we do not have two or three evidences for MJ sitting up, we do have four CONTRADICTORY hoax theories about MJ going into the hospital (all four of which are wrong): #1 MJ sits up in the stretcher; #2 Murray is really MJ in disguise; #3 MJ is the dark-haired paramedic on the far right; #4 MJ is the last one getting out of the ambulance. NONE of these four theories are supported by at least two or three strong points (nor is it possible for even two of these to be correct, much less all four).
Second, there are several strong points why MJ did not go to UCLA at all on 6-25-09 (which I have already started discussing at the beginning of 7b, and will be going into much more detail shortly). Obviously, if MJ was not on that stretcher going into UCLA, then MJ did not sit up while riding on the stretcher. I will also be debunking the living double theory soon, which means that no living double sat up, either.
Third, the photos could’ve easily been edited, to make it look like MJ was sitting up in the stretcher. However, this is probably not the case, because the last three points below all indicate that the face is actually someone walking on the far side of the stretcher. His face is primarily blocked by all of the other people between him and the camera, although in some of the pictures you can see portions of his face. Likewise, his legs are blocked in almost all of the shots; but there is one shot where you can see one of his legs (see pictures at the end of this post).
Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards! That is possible, of course, especially if he was planning to sit up; therefore, I consider this only a minor point. Please carefully compare these pictures; the second picture (click the link) is a stretcher from the LAFD, just like the one that went into ULCA. You should be able to see three or four things which show that the stretcher went into UCLA feet first {http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy (http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy)}.
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2370/ucla01detalle.jpg)
http://mikesphotos.us:81/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=82810 (http://mikesphotos.us:81/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=82810)
Fifth, there is one person standing in the doorway, who does not move with the stretcher (Heron). This means that unless the mystery face is that of someone walking with the stretcher on the far side of it, then EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera (on the left side and head of it). This of course is possible, but it seems more reasonable that at least one person would be walking the stretcher on the far side (on the right side or foot of it).
Sixth, as stated above, in most of the pictures his legs are blocked by the legs of people closer to the camera; but there is one shot where you can see one of his legs (it’s the third picture in the series of eight). This leg is too wide to be any part of the structure of the stretcher; and it’s too far right to be one of Blount’s legs (see the legs colored in the picture below).
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Level%207/Legs.jpg)
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/LegsColored.jpg)
Post by: Suzy7 on November 25, 2011, 03:18:21 PM
He also said he would give the answer to us on a silver platter, and MJ wasn't an option served on that platter. I also think the 'living double theory' would be exactly the same as the MJ theory, so it too doesn't seem necessary.
That leaves us with the dummy/corpse/nothing theories.
If Kai is not in on it, there was a general rule that no one was allowed upstairs; I highly doubt that she would risk her job and turn into Superman, run upstairs and see what was actually on the bed. If Murray was up there before help arrived, he would have been the one to stop her. Besides, she didn't see what exactly the emergency was nor was she told, so her going back to work isn't that unusual as it is what she was there for anyway.
Murray could have been staying with Michael. Maybe they discussed the hoax and many other things and everyday for a while, he got his juice; just for appearances for those not in the know.
Perhaps more people should support theories that might not be that of their own opinion, just so TS could have more theories to debunk. I'm also unsure why people would start believing MJ is dead based on whatever theory is what actually happened. Regardless of who/what was in the ambulance, it doesn't change the fact that he faked his death and why he faked his death. The end result is and will be the same.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 25, 2011, 03:24:21 PM
Instead, he let us come up with our own conclusions, in this case (and probably many others lol) wrong...
I wasn't wrong about that and it really feels good.
I am sure I'm wrong about other things though.
About Murray being Michael, I've always thought you guys were just kidding and you never really believed Murray is Michael.
Yes Gina...I remember you mentioning the legs in the ambulance photo at UCLA /bravo/
As for Murray being MJ, it definitely was a 'fanciful' theory....and a fun one. But one that most of us always conceded would be very difficult to pull off.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 03:24:59 PM
Quote
TS basically just debunked the MJ taken in the ambulance that day theory.
Not entirely. She/he just explained why it wasn't MJ standing up on the stretcher, but this doesn't prove MJ wasn't lied down on the stretcher.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 25, 2011, 03:29:58 PM
Are you saying MJ died? Or was alive and lying down?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 03:35:38 PM
@Gina In TS' original post on 7b he very much did, in my opinion.I don't believe it was MJ alive lying down on the stretcher.
Are you saying MJ died? Or was alive and lying down?
Post by: Andrea on November 25, 2011, 03:49:12 PM
TS:
Quote
In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher.
Going with the MJ alive and there theory (still, lol) - he remained laying down on the stretcher, which makes a lot more sense than sitting up and drawing attention to himself as he is supposed to be "dead".
Post by: PureLove on November 25, 2011, 03:53:14 PM
It is important that we understand 7a correctly, because it’s a solid foundation upon which we can build to find the answer for the main question in 7b (what went to the hospital in the ambulance?). For example, since the video events really happened on 6-25-09, we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?
I do believe that everyone in that house on the 25th is in on the hoax. It would be too risky if there were people in the house who didn't know about the hoax because they might see the paramedics get into the house and get out of the house without MJ on the stretcher. Were they going to lock people into a room for them not to see anything going on in the house? Probably they kept the number of people minimum in the house that day. The maids were not there maybe. So, the bodyguards, and the chef know about it. As long as this is a sting and the FBI is involved, no one could spill the beans because no one would like to get into trouble with laws etc. I also remember that all maids were fired just after the 25th. Probably they were all in the house on the 25th and know about the hoax. They were paid and told to keep their silence by the FBI and were sent away.
Remember this statement, which I made at the beginning of this thread: “Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax.”
For example, do you think that Kai Chase was in on it? If so, why? Would she NEED to be in on it, and what EVIDENCE is there that she is in on it? In fact, have you ever considered whether the CHILDREN were in on it initially (or just informed afterward)? And again, what EVIDENCE do you have on this?
I wrote above already why the people in the house needed to be in on it and I do believe Kai knows too as well as Alvarez. Their testimonies contradict. Alvarez said that Prince went into his dad's room when Murray called him but Kai told that Prince stayed with them downstairs and they all prayed together. I believe that these contradictions were created by Michael, even not all of them but most of them were, and for Kai and Alvarez to make these contradictions, they need to be in on it. Otherwise, I do not think that they will be remembering it wrong if Prince stayed downstairs or went into dad's room. This is not something to be confused about.
About the kids; I'm pretty sure that Michael told them about his plans before the 25th. He wouldn't let them panic and scared to death for their father.
Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.
I wrote exact the same words about the live MJ theory. He wouldn't risk himself to be seen around on the 25th. That would fail the project. This is his masterpiece and as I wrote before he is the MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN. I do not believe Michael would like to be in front of the camera coz he is the director of this project. He is also the star of it but he is the invisible star of it and we have a visible star of the movie who is Murray.
To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
Now if we move to 7b; WHAT went to UCLA. I never thought the possibility of a long term ill MJ double or healthy MJ double going to UCLA theory as it doesn't sound plausible to me. I go with a real corpse theory as it sounds plausible the most to me.
A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax. And if we're trying to keep as few people as we can in on the hoax, then we can skip the paramedics. They could be deceived by a corpse. I don't know about the doctors tho if they could be deceived or not but the DA has to be in on it. A corpse would explain why the room was heated in the middle of summer and why the paramedics told that they couldn't recognize MJ and told that the man was an old, fragile, Asian man. Probably the paramedics were told about the hoax later and that is the reason why they changed their statements at the trial about recognizing MJ. This is one of the corpse theories.
The second theory of mine about the corpse is; a corpse was used not because the paramedics didn't know about the hoax or the doctors but a corpse was used for them to tell what they really did with the corpse instead of pretending and saying things. Talking about the actual motions is easier to create things in your mind and pretend what you did with the body.
And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after. And if people who come to this forum after the BAM can see that we have a good solid coherent theory on the how’s, then they will be much more likely to believe that we also have the correct understanding of the why’s.
I do agree that the WHYs of the hoax need to become clear for all of us. I believe that people started to miss the most important WHYs of the hoax and I'm hoping everyone to understand the reasonS of it very well. We should understand it so well that we will be the guiding lights of many after the BAM.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 03:54:20 PM
Just a thought. Maybe we won't be able to figure out all of the "how's" of the hoax because it is on a whole different level. I have feelings that Michael could be connected to the spiritual world. Things that we are not too familiar with. Think about what Kenny Ortega said about him having "Bioliminessence". And Akon saying "He thinks on a whole other level".
Think about energy waves,magnetic fields, light bodies,channeling, psychic powers, astral projection, different dimensions and frequences, quantum jumping, spirits, angels, E.T's, astrology, sacred geometry, alchemy. Or maybe it's something we don't know yet.
Get ready to learn a new "reality". I think we have to go Waaaaaaaaay outside the box and it might be something we don't know ?????? Just ideas.
Love and Light to all
I was thinking about this too, but I can't make these things clear not even for me, so I can't explain to others.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 03:56:51 PM
Quote
It would be too risky if there were people in the house who didn't know about the hoax because they might see the paramedics get into the house and get out of the house without MJ on the stretcher.
They were sent home before the paramedics went downstairs with the gurney.
Quote
Probably the paramedics were told about the hoax later and that is the reason why they changed their statements at the trial about recognizing MJ.
Only Blunt testified he recognized MJ. Seneff didn't.
Post by: curls on November 25, 2011, 03:58:33 PM
Oh, and it was never mentioned but maybe on the stretcher there were simply some pillows or stuffed toys :shock: (that's my son's theory LOL)
I actually put this idea forward earlier today! Page 39, reply #968:
"But if we have bodyguards, paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA and coroner 'in on it' (and I hope it's safe to say they are, due to their involvement in the trial) then essentially there is no need for anything to be transported, except perhaps, at most, a load of sheets crumpled up and arranged in a 'body' shape on the stretcher to satisfy any unexpected sightings - easier to dispose of when no longer needed than the other options."
I've been mulling over all these other options today and still keep coming back to the 'NOTHING' theory. If we keep in mind that success on that day was the main concern, then the use of anything (whether that be
Keep things simple and don't add anything unless it's NEEDED.
Post by: PureLove on November 25, 2011, 03:59:07 PM
QuoteIt would be too risky if there were people in the house who didn't know about the hoax because they might see the paramedics get into the house and get out of the house without MJ on the stretcher.
They were sent home before the paramedics went downstairs with the gurney.
They? Who are they you are referring to? And do we KNOW for sure that they were sent home?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
Yes, Kai testified about it. See her testimony Souza posted on youtube. They are Kai and housekeepers.QuoteIt would be too risky if there were people in the house who didn't know about the hoax because they might see the paramedics get into the house and get out of the house without MJ on the stretcher.
They were sent home before the paramedics went downstairs with the gurney.
They? Who are they you are referring to? And do we KNOW for sure that they were sent home?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 04:05:57 PM
Re TS' latest post, personally I never could see MJ sitting up on that stretcher, so I'm happy if that is finally being debunked!
Oh, and it was never mentioned but maybe on the stretcher there were simply some pillows or stuffed toys :shock: (that's my son's theory LOL)
I actually put this idea forward earlier today! Page 39, reply #968:
"But if we have bodyguards, paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA and coroner 'in on it' (and I hope it's safe to say they are, due to their involvement in the trial) then essentially there is no need for anything to be transported, except perhaps, at most, a load of sheets crumpled up and arranged in a 'body' shape on the stretcher to satisfy any unexpected sightings - easier to dispose of when no longer needed than the other options."
I've been mulling over all these other options today and still keep coming back to the 'NOTHING' theory. If we keep in mind that success on that day was the main concern, then the use of anything (whether that belive MJ, live double, dead body, MJ dummy, other dummy), would, to my mind, present too many unnecessary risks, complications and difficulties without any need or benefits.
Keep things simple and don't add anything unless it's NEEDED.
Sorry I must have skipped your post. It was just that I asked my son what he thinks was in the ambulance and he said pillows and stuff like this and made me laugh.
I am not sure about the "corpse" theory but I also am not sure about the "nothing" theory.
Post by: PureLove on November 25, 2011, 04:06:53 PM
Yes, Kai testified about it. See her testimony Souza posted on youtube. They are Kai and housekeepers.QuoteIt would be too risky if there were people in the house who didn't know about the hoax because they might see the paramedics get into the house and get out of the house without MJ on the stretcher.
They were sent home before the paramedics went downstairs with the gurney.
They? Who are they you are referring to? And do we KNOW for sure that they were sent home?
I don't remember Kai said such a thing. I remember her saying that she went back to the kitchen.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 25, 2011, 04:09:35 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 04:10:03 PM
9 other staff members were sent home before MJ was transported to UCLA..I presume they were the homehelp....but who ordered them to go home, and why were they sent home ??
Were they not supposed to see something that morning?
So only Murray, was in the room, Alverez witnessed a dead body being worked on,
Amir was there to help get the cars ready, and so was Mohammed....
So just Murray and the paramedics and the children and some bodyguards......witnessed everything..
Kai says security asked them to go home, between 13:00 - 13:16
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pl7mSnxjl0&feature=autoplay&list=PLB4309E55BC773624&lf=player_embedded&playnext=2[/youtube]
Post by: Suzy7 on November 25, 2011, 04:10:07 PM
What if a pillow fell on the floor on the way into UCLA or into the ambulance? I'm thinking if a corpse or dummy were not used, then nothing at all on the stretcher is most likely.
And Gina, you know he's not dead lol ;).
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 04:13:55 PM
I don't think the 'nothing' theory is very plausible though it could be a possibility. I think realism is important, and crumpled sheets, toys and pillows would make me laugh if I was recalling the events of that day in court.
What if a pillow fell on the floor on the way into UCLA or into the ambulance? I'm thinking if a corpse or dummy were not used, then nothing at all on the stretcher is most likely.
And Gina, you know he's not dead lol ;).
No I do not know...the Big Boy doesn't let me know....I just suspect he is not dead, but he will be when I put my hands on him LOL!!
Wouldn't that be funny, pillows and sheets starting falling from the stretcher :lol: :lol: :lol:!!
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 25, 2011, 04:22:47 PM
A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax. And if we're trying to keep as few people as we can in on the hoax, then we can skip the paramedics. They could be deceived by a corpse. I don't know about the doctors tho if they could be deceived or not but the DA has to be in on it. A corpse would explain why the room was heated in the middle of summer and why the paramedics told that they couldn't recognize MJ and told that the man was an old, fragile, Asian man. Probably the paramedics were told about the hoax later and that is the reason why they changed their statements at the trial about recognizing MJ. This is one of the corpse theories.
The second theory of mine about the corpse is; a corpse was used not because the paramedics didn't know about the hoax or the doctors but a corpse was used for them to tell what they really did with the corpse instead of pretending and saying things. Talking about the actual motions is easier to create things in your mind and pretend what you did with the body. [/b]
Those are not very strong points. Senneff testified that he has been a paramedic for 27 years. These are all professionals we're dealing with, I am sure that they would be able to picture such a scenario, because they have seen it many times before. And if they all just would recollect the events that really happened, then why weren't the stories of Senneff and Blount exactly the same? And why would you use a real corpse just to fool paramedics, if you are going to tell them anyway before they have to testify? In that case they could have simply told them right at the start. And for remembering real events, a dummy would do. Using a real corpse just for that reason, seems useless, it's still a dead human being you're dealing with. So IF a corpse was used, then it must be for more important reasons than that. Using a corpse just for the staff (in case they would see nothing on the stretcher) is useless too. You could put anything or anyone on that stretcher, it's a panic situation and everything goes pretty fast. There is security around the stretcher and three paramedics, plus Murray. A clear view would be blocked. Besides that, you also need to get the body INTO the house. If you want to use something, it would be easier to get a dummy in (I don't know, but they could make a dummy with a detachable head, arms and legs, so you could bring it in with a sports bag. That would be a little hard with a real corpse, which would have to be brought in on a stretcher, this riskier with staff in and around the house.
I am definitely not against the corpse theory, but I have not seen or imagined a scenario where it was absolutely needed. So until someone can provide a plausible necessarity of using a corpse, I think it's either a dummy or nothing at all, and a dummy would make sense to create a scenario, make a picture in the hospital and at the coroner, have it transported to FL, where they would open the coffin after 10 weeks, finding the corpse in perfect state. So I think a dummy is the best scenario for me now: everything the same as when it would have been MJ, the only thing would be that the MJ wouldn't be real, like many other things in this whole saga. Very big pro for the use of a dummy is that you can have it look IDENTICAL to MJ. That means that anyone not handeling the body wouldn't have to have a clue that it was fake.
Post by: loyalfan on November 25, 2011, 04:24:31 PM
1. a donated body to cryogenics.
2. therefore the person signs over their body and the name can be changed to michael joseph jackson
3. the heat in the room was to warm the body up.
the medical intervention could have been in the name of reseqrch into cryogenics...... o.k. i am going to put my straightjacket on now xxx :-[
Post by: Suzy7 on November 25, 2011, 04:28:23 PM
Edit: Souza, the corpse, if one was used, could have been brought in the house the night before. Therefore, staff and people not in the hoax wouldn't have any chance of seeing it.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 04:31:21 PM
Quote
a dummy would make sense to create a scenario, make a picture in the hospital and at the coroner, have it transported to FL, where they would open the coffin after 10 weeks, finding the corpse in perfect state. So I think a dummy is the best scenario for me now: everything the same as when it would have been MJ, the only thing would be that the MJ wouldn't be real, like many other things in this whole saga. Very big pro for the use of a dummy is that you can have it look IDENTICAL to MJ. That means that anyone not handeling the body wouldn't have to have a clue that it was fake.
Could be a dummy. But Senneff was so real when he testified, that's what bothers me, that man looked like he was telling exactly what he saw and did.
Post by: PureLove on November 25, 2011, 04:38:38 PM
@PureLove you should read the other posts, look it's here between 13:00 - 13:16, I posted it on page 40, Kai says she and the housekeepers were asked to leave. In fact you should listen from 11 to 13:169 other staff members were sent home before MJ was transported to UCLA..I presume they were the homehelp....but who ordered them to go home, and why were they sent home ??
Were they not supposed to see something that morning?
So only Murray, was in the room, Alverez witnessed a dead body being worked on,
Amir was there to help get the cars ready, and so was Mohammed....
So just Murray and the paramedics and the children and some bodyguards......witnessed everything..
Kai says security asked them to go home, between 13:00 - 13:16
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pl7mSnxjl0&feature=autoplay&list=PLB4309E55BC773624&lf=player_embedded&playnext=2[/youtube]
Gina, you make too many posts that I missed to read some of your posts. I wish you collected everything you want to say in just one single post. It wouldn't be this much confusing. But it is your choice of course.
Do we know when exactly the ambulance left Carollwood? Kai, says she and the housekeeper were asked to leave. But she doesn't say when she left the property or IF she left the property.
They were sent home before the paramedics went downstairs with the gurney.
She doesn't say anything like she left before the paramedics came downstairs with the gurney. So we still do not know IF Kai and the housekeeper left the house or not. Kai says she went back to the kitchen. IF Kai and the housekeeper left before the ambulance left, then this means they do not know anything about the hoax which is better to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax.
Post by: PureLove on November 25, 2011, 04:46:28 PM
A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax. And if we're trying to keep as few people as we can in on the hoax, then we can skip the paramedics. They could be deceived by a corpse. I don't know about the doctors tho if they could be deceived or not but the DA has to be in on it. A corpse would explain why the room was heated in the middle of summer and why the paramedics told that they couldn't recognize MJ and told that the man was an old, fragile, Asian man. Probably the paramedics were told about the hoax later and that is the reason why they changed their statements at the trial about recognizing MJ. This is one of the corpse theories.
The second theory of mine about the corpse is; a corpse was used not because the paramedics didn't know about the hoax or the doctors but a corpse was used for them to tell what they really did with the corpse instead of pretending and saying things. Talking about the actual motions is easier to create things in your mind and pretend what you did with the body. [/b]
And for remembering real events, a dummy would do. Using a real corpse just for that reason, seems useless, it's still a dead human being you're dealing with.
Well you can not apply all the procedures on a dummy. And I do believe that a real body would be more useful for the paramedics and the doctors to apply all the procedures on it and tell about what they did instead of pretending doing all the stuff. To me this is a plausible necessarity of using a corpse.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 05:11:31 PM
Quote
Gina, you make too many posts that I missed to read some of your posts. I wish you collected everything you want to say in just one single post.
Sorry I can not do that.
Quote
Do we know when exactly the ambulance left Carollwood?
At 1:07 PM? I am not very sure.
Quote
Kai, says: she and the housekeeper were asked to leave. But she doesn't say when she left the property. If Kai and the housekeeper left before the ambulance left, then this means they do not know anything about the hoax which is better to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax.
I don't know if she testified when exactly she left, but when Ms. Brazil asks her what next after she saw the paramedics going upstairs, she says she doesn't know, because she was asked to leave by security.
In the ambulance video we can see one of the housekeepers ( a fat lady) leaving the residence and also in Ben's video he says what happened during those 40 minutes when the ambulance was in there, he says 8 to 10 employees left the house during those 40 minutes, so to me it is clear they left before the ambulance:
Just listen the first minute:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44[/youtube]
Post by: PureLove on November 25, 2011, 05:20:51 PM
QuoteGina, you make too many posts that I missed to read some of your posts. I wish you collected everything you want to say in just one single post.
Sorry I can not do that.QuoteDo we know when exactly the ambulance left Carollwood?
At 1:07 PM? I am not very sure.QuoteKai, says: she and the housekeeper were asked to leave. But she doesn't say when she left the property. If Kai and the housekeeper left before the ambulance left, then this means they do not know anything about the hoax which is better to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax.
I don't know if she testified when exactly she left, but when Ms. Brazil asks her what next after she saw the paramedics going upstairs, she says she doesn't know, because she was asked to leave by security.
In the ambulance video we can see one of the housekeepers ( a fat lady) leaving the residence and also in Ben's video he says what happened during those 40 minutes when the ambulance was in there, he says 8 to 10 employees left the house during those 40 minutes, so to me it is clear they left before the ambulance:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44[/youtube]
I watched the 5th part of her testimony and she doesn't say anything like she left the property. She says she called Prince and saw him approaching Murray, she didn't see if Prince went upstairs and then she says she went back to the kitchen. It is more plausible of course that all the maids and the chef are not in on the hoax and left the property before the ambulance left. So, they were not going to see what was on the gurney and what went to UCLA. Thank you for letting me know about this detail I missed.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 05:24:37 PM
They left before the ambulance left so I don't think they saw the stretcher.
Purelove I think you are tired and I am too...I give you the exact minute where to listen and you don't hear?
I go to bed now, see you tomorrow bearhug
Quote
I watched the 5th part of her testimony and she doesn't say anything like she left the property.
It's not the fifh part, it's the 3rd part, I posted it above, listen at 13 /scream/ /scream/ /scream/ /scream/ crash/ crash/
Post by: fordtocarr on November 25, 2011, 05:31:42 PM
Let, alone, there are unsanitary conditions to be around dead bodies...
and...really, who'd HANDLE IT? And, what'd they do...just keep one on freeze until the day before the hoax, then unthaw it?
Seriously??? Some family member in charge of the dead body would do that?? Freeze it, unthaw it, do all those procedures to it...refreeze it...blah blah..
And, they'd bring in a DEAD man into the house with the children? Come on there are health reasons not to do that! And if it was an imbalmed one..they'd not be able to put needles into it. And if it were a resent death, WHAT'D THEY DO, SAY "just give me a fresh one on the 25th"...no...that would've had to be prearranged ..an unclaimed body..or a death that was planned. They couldn't just get one on that day, and have permissions and all, to be fresh...
This just cannot be.
It had to be either Michael, which if it were, then it's ALL just not real...because they did not punch him full of holes and no one seen him dead anyplace or do an autopsy on him or bury him. It'd all be fake, movie, sting or whatever.
If it was a dummy, an identical one, then still, they'd mostly have to be in on it, because again, they can't punch holes and bury, etc, a dummy and it even act as a human.
It seems that no one was actually there. This entirely is not real. There are the same people in on it, but no need for all the above scenarios, they wouldn't work anyhow for my above reasons. Whatever the reasons for this, could still pertain no matter WHO went into the amb/hosp. As long as whoever it is FOR believes IT WAS REALLY MICHAEL DEAD. OR...the sting is sprung, or the movie done.
Post by: Adi on November 25, 2011, 05:36:40 PM
For the events to have been filmed in real time MJ needed to have ultimate control AND also have the least amount of risk. There would have been outside factors that day that nobody would have had control over. MJ could not leave anything to CHANCE – it all had to be controlled and planned.
As everything was filmed in real time they had no idea who was going to be present outside Carolwood that day, how many paparazzi, how many stalker fans etc. It was a variable that could not be controlled by MJ or anyone.
Therefore how were they to be sure that another pap, besides Ben/Chris, didn’t manage to get a shot inside the ambulance or see something they weren’t meant to see?? If it was all filmed in real-time then to control who was hanging around would have been impossible.
Therefore if events were filmed in real time on that day to make the entire thing realistic, then “something” needed to go in the ambulance.
On the live Mj in the ambo:
I have never agreed with the real live MJ being in the ambulance that day.
I agree it would have been too risky for MJ to ride in the ambulance and potentially stuff up everything if something unforeseen happened along the way. What if the ambulance had of crashed/broken down? I know it’s a remote possibility but there is still the chance it could have happened and as we know from the numerology aspect this entire hoax is meticulously planned down to the last minute! What if some outside event interfered with the transport? I think everything needed to be controlled as much as possible.
On the “nothing” in the ambo:
If another pap did get a shot inside the ambo and take a picture of nothing in it (remembering it was all filmed in real-time) then that would have been the picture splashed around the world and Ben's sweet little "money shot" would have been rendered useless & possibly ruined the decades of what MJ had been planning for the purposes of this hoax. The hoax could have been potentially over in a day if it was discovered nothing went in the ambulance.
To my mind that leaves either a dummy identical to MJ or a corpse went in the ambulance. Which one, well I have to think more about that.
The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 05:41:06 PM
from ADI
Quote
The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
makes sense.
Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:
Post by: mimi248 on November 25, 2011, 05:42:12 PM
What if Mj was really dead on june 25 th 2009 BUT hoax also exists . What if MJ wasn't only human but he really was ARCHANGEL MICHAEL. Think about it cause you have to think outside the box and expose AL theories . Is it a coincidence that MJ and Jesus Christ were both born of a father named JOSEPH and katherine equal " pure " in hebrew. Is it a coincidence that MJ is the 7th child ? is it a coincidence that he is the only one gifted of several talents ALL are PERFECTION Dance, sing, even he can draw... is it a coincidence that his name is MICHAEL JACKSON ( oth 7 letters) traducted as Who is like god the son of Jacob? is it a coincidencee that he's the only one who has VITILIGO. remember, Vitiligo touch only 2% of the whole world!!
Maybe michael kne when he was going to die, for a very long time before. because MJ is connected with god and higher source so it could be a theorie. then, maybe he decided to create a fake hoax ( a hoax within a hoax) in order to find some believers on june 25 th , and also denounce all injustice ( bad justice, bad government etc..) So, what if he really died on june 25th the same as jesus did too ? On the same day, family and knowers created the hoax at the same time , this could explain why there was 2 ambulances for exemple. i'm sorry for my bad english :s . They showed us the fake pictures and video on TV and HID all real proof that mj was really dead BUT if he really is the Archangel Michael, family KNOWS that he will resurrect very soon. this could explain " we are going to see the king". or when latoya wrote on the funeral book that she is impatient to see his brother on this earth AGAIN.
watch this please
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcJprDeyLRE&feature=related . You can CLEARLY see how paris cried!
I saw, blanket, paris, prince, katherine, jermaine, and others CRY during the memoria. pictures don't lie. these are not FAKE tears. MJ is really dead at the moment BUT will resurect. and finallly this theorie can explain " the man you've never seen before" . And Although, When JC resurected, he had a new body, he came with an other form, an younger and beautiful body. the spiritual body .
What if mj will resurrect the same as jesus did? with a YOUNGER nody, with his spiritual body !!
this could explain WHY all movies , books , cds came out since 2011 show us ONLY mj pictures of thriller era why not after? will he come back with this apparence?
I just think it's an embedeed structure.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 25, 2011, 05:46:34 PM
Quote
MJ is really dead at the moment BUT will resurect.
...and people say believers are delusional :roll: :roll: :roll:...
good night bearhug
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 25, 2011, 05:48:04 PM
A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax. And if we're trying to keep as few people as we can in on the hoax, then we can skip the paramedics. They could be deceived by a corpse. I don't know about the doctors tho if they could be deceived or not but the DA has to be in on it. A corpse would explain why the room was heated in the middle of summer and why the paramedics told that they couldn't recognize MJ and told that the man was an old, fragile, Asian man. Probably the paramedics were told about the hoax later and that is the reason why they changed their statements at the trial about recognizing MJ. This is one of the corpse theories.
The second theory of mine about the corpse is; a corpse was used not because the paramedics didn't know about the hoax or the doctors but a corpse was used for them to tell what they really did with the corpse instead of pretending and saying things. Talking about the actual motions is easier to create things in your mind and pretend what you did with the body. [/b]
And for remembering real events, a dummy would do. Using a real corpse just for that reason, seems useless, it's still a dead human being you're dealing with.
Well you can not apply all the procedures on a dummy. And I do believe that a real body would be more useful for the paramedics and the doctors to apply all the procedures on it and tell about what they did instead of pretending doing all the stuff. To me this is a plausible necessarity of using a corpse.
Oh? Do you think it's easy to intubate a long dead corpse? You can do many things with a dummy. You can intubate it, perform CPR on it, give it mouth-to-mouth etc. They even have dummies these days that can give birth to a baby dummy. Handeling a dummy is much easier than using a corpse. Plus you will damage the body: break ribs, damage tissue etc. So as long as there is no valid reason to use it, it's useless.
Post by: mimi248 on November 25, 2011, 05:52:07 PM
QuoteMJ is really dead at the moment BUT will resurect.
...and people say believers are delusional :roll: :roll: :roll:...
good night bearhug
i know but i think it's a theorie maybe crazy of course! OMG i just really think that MJ IS Archangel Michael if you just explore this theorie and make your own opinion WITHOUT using Bible and religions! you could probably be driven to the same idea .
Post by: fordtocarr on November 25, 2011, 05:58:25 PM
A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax. And if we're trying to keep as few people as we can in on the hoax, then we can skip the paramedics. They could be deceived by a corpse. I don't know about the doctors tho if they could be deceived or not but the DA has to be in on it. A corpse would explain why the room was heated in the middle of summer and why the paramedics told that they couldn't recognize MJ and told that the man was an old, fragile, Asian man. Probably the paramedics were told about the hoax later and that is the reason why they changed their statements at the trial about recognizing MJ. This is one of the corpse theories.
The second theory of mine about the corpse is; a corpse was used not because the paramedics didn't know about the hoax or the doctors but a corpse was used for them to tell what they really did with the corpse instead of pretending and saying things. Talking about the actual motions is easier to create things in your mind and pretend what you did with the body. [/b]
And for remembering real events, a dummy would do. Using a real corpse just for that reason, seems useless, it's still a dead human being you're dealing with.
Well you can not apply all the procedures on a dummy. And I do believe that a real body would be more useful for the paramedics and the doctors to apply all the procedures on it and tell about what they did instead of pretending doing all the stuff. To me this is a plausible necessarity of using a corpse.
Oh? Do you think it's easy to intubate a long dead corpse? You can do many things with a dummy. You can intubate it, perform CPR on it, give it mouth-to-mouth etc. They even have dummies these days that can give birth to a baby dummy. Handeling a dummy is much easier than using a corpse. Plus you will damage the body: break ribs, damage tissue etc. So as long as there is no valid reason to use it, it's useless.
WOW Souza girl, that's about what I'm saying in my last post, except, that why use it at all??? Who'd it be fooling?? Anyone who'd be working on it would know it wasn't real...so..I'm thinking nothing there at all. Is that what you were meaning by no valid reason to use it, it's useless? Because that is my point earlier too ;)
Also, about what you wrote ADI, I see NO reason that all you were referring to couldn't have been controlled. Who's really to say that, if it is a sting, or movie, the entire area was "settted" only those in that were pertaining to the actions necessary? Just saying, if all this leading up to the planning of and initiating of and carrying out of the hoax for all these years could happen, then just a couple of hours sure could've been.
After all, it is ONLY AN ILLUSION! It could ALL NOT BE REAL AT ALL actually.....
Post by: Andrea on November 25, 2011, 06:04:01 PM
I agree Adi that something could've happened to the ambulance en route but the chances are so slim. And people tend to be extra cautious when they see emergency vehicles nearby and will get out of the way at the sight/sound of an ambulance. Plus, traffic was light at that time of the day and the weather was ideal. The people who would receive the ambulance were expecting it so that small part of UCLA can be easily controlled, especially if a 'VIP' person was coming - access would be immediately restricted to that area.
The best way, in my eyes, for Michael to be in total control of his hoax is for him to be there. I don't believe there was nothing in the ambulance, that would seem the riskiest of all if anyone happened to see something they shouldn't have. If Michael WASN'T there, then the other possibility in my opinion would be a MJ looking-dummy simply for the shape of a body and any quick glimpses from 'outsiders'. But since it has not been proven that Michael WASN'T there, the MJ alive scenario makes the most sense to me.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 25, 2011, 06:10:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMpvJI33Vn8&feature=player_embedded
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMpvJI33Vn8&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Post by: Adi on November 25, 2011, 06:12:11 PM
A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax. And if we're trying to keep as few people as we can in on the hoax, then we can skip the paramedics. They could be deceived by a corpse. I don't know about the doctors tho if they could be deceived or not but the DA has to be in on it. A corpse would explain why the room was heated in the middle of summer and why the paramedics told that they couldn't recognize MJ and told that the man was an old, fragile, Asian man. Probably the paramedics were told about the hoax later and that is the reason why they changed their statements at the trial about recognizing MJ. This is one of the corpse theories.
The second theory of mine about the corpse is; a corpse was used not because the paramedics didn't know about the hoax or the doctors but a corpse was used for them to tell what they really did with the corpse instead of pretending and saying things. Talking about the actual motions is easier to create things in your mind and pretend what you did with the body. [/b]
And for remembering real events, a dummy would do. Using a real corpse just for that reason, seems useless, it's still a dead human being you're dealing with.
Well you can not apply all the procedures on a dummy. And I do believe that a real body would be more useful for the paramedics and the doctors to apply all the procedures on it and tell about what they did instead of pretending doing all the stuff. To me this is a plausible necessarity of using a corpse.
Oh? Do you think it's easy to intubate a long dead corpse? You can do many things with a dummy. You can intubate it, perform CPR on it, give it mouth-to-mouth etc. They even have dummies these days that can give birth to a baby dummy. Handeling a dummy is much easier than using a corpse. Plus you will damage the body: break ribs, damage tissue etc. So as long as there is no valid reason to use it, it's useless.
WOW Souza girl, from my last post, you can see, you and I are on total agreement on this one!!! ;)
Also, about what you wrote ADI, I see NO reason that all you were referring to couldn't have been controlled. Who's really to say that, if it is a sting, or movie, the entire area was "settted" only those in that were pertaining to the actions necessary? Just saying, if all this leading up to the planning of and initiating of and carrying out of the hoax for all these years could happen, then just a couple of hours sure could've been.
After all, it is ONLY AN ILLUSION! It could ALL NOT BE REAL AT ALL actually.....
From TS earlier in this thread:
Quote
It is important that we understand 7a correctly, because it’s a solid foundation upon which we can build to find the answer for the main question in 7b (what went to the hospital in the ambulance?). For example, since the video events really happened on 6-25-09, we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?
The conclusion of 7a was that events actually did happen and that it was filmed on that day - so it wasn't an illusion and/or not real. Therefore as I said in my post if it was filmed in real time on that day then anyone could have been outside Carolwood and they couldn't have controlled it. The tour bus drove by...was that controlled? any other number of fans or paparazzi or media could have been also stalking around that they couldn't have anticipated, unless they could read minds..... :lol:
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 25, 2011, 06:17:03 PM
Post by: fordtocarr on November 25, 2011, 06:20:28 PM
But, I wouldn't get defensive, I'm just saying it is possible to be controlled...even though it is realtime.
Actually, I would believe it ALL would've been controlled to have happened at all.
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 25, 2011, 06:42:10 PM
Michael also had a painting or a mural that said something about being a multi-dimensional being. During the This Is It movie, many were saying he was an angel walking the earth. Most would agree he is very spiritual and seems connected to God. Also, in the movie was the DNA spiral or strands. So think about starseeds, E.T's, light beings, indigo children, the pleidians. All of this is working together. We are coming to a new age of peace according to the Mayan Calendar, Sumerians, Nostradamus and more. Think about higher dimensions etc.
You can call me delusional if you want but I'm having like thoughts with Mimi248. I think the answer to all of this is waaaaaay outside the box. Of great importance for the world. "a new reality, spiritual revolution and awakening". I'm praying for it anyway.
Love
Post by: Adi on November 25, 2011, 06:57:26 PM
Just because it was REALLY filmed or filmed in real time don't make it REAL or controlled, not that it was.
But, I wouldn't get defensive, I'm just saying it is possible to be controlled...even though it is realtime.
Actually, I would believe it ALL would've been controlled to have happened at all.
ahhh excuse me??.....I'm not getting defensive :roll: I was responding to your comment to me....
As my earlier post states, yes I think that MJ would have wanted to control the whole thing - but could he control who turned up that day outside Carolwood if it was all filmed as it happened?? and therefore who else could have potentially got a photo besides Ben???..which may have been the wrong photo.....possibly of "nothing" in the ambulance?
I don't think he could have controlled that aspect - that 's why I think he needed the least risky option of what went in the ambulance for "reality purposes" in case something OUT OF HIS CONTROL went wrong...not only outside Carolwood but also in the transporting to UCLA.
Hence why I think it's either an identical MJ Dummy or possibly a corpse. But I am leaning more towards the dummy theory.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 25, 2011, 07:09:08 PM
Before people deem a corpse as "useless" research the subject first. They are used for many things and are as plausible as a dummy.
And smh @ the MJ is Jesus theory. No offense, but really? I'm pretty sure Michael studied Egyptology and the occult; which simply means hidden knowledge (although The Bible does speak against it) hence the symbology; I don't think he's trying to say "I'm Jesus". That would contradict his own alleged beliefs, including The Bible itself.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 25, 2011, 08:16:57 PM
Honestly, I think that it's just not safe to handle dead people for hygienic reasons, and I think that's why the practice of home funerals are pretty much not done any longer. Also, to use a corpse, as I've stated, what about rigor??? I could be wrong, and I could be wrong about what ADI said too, but WTH, it's my opinion and I have one just like everyone else, and most of our guesses will prob. be wrong.
I just will be SHOCKED if Michael used DEAD person to stage a hoax.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 25, 2011, 08:23:28 PM
@Fordtocarr your post about corpses made me LOL. It seems morbid and unnecessary at first, but it's actually not.
Before people deem a corpse as "useless" research the subject first. They are used for many things and are as plausible as a dummy.
Before telling me to do my research, maybe you should read what I wrote first. I am NOT against the corpse theory, and I am fully aware of the fact that they COULD have used one, but I have an unanswered question: WHY a corpse instead of a dummy? Why did they choose a corpse? So before telling me to do my research, come up with a coherent theory about the necessarity of a corpse first. Really, I am open to it, but I need good arguments first. Just the fact that it's possible won't do. It's also possible to have Jermaine on that stretcher, doesn't mean it happened. So tell me why and if you have good arguments, I am open to changing my mind.
Post by: PureLove on November 25, 2011, 09:02:23 PM
Pure Love didn't you listen to Ben???? He says at 0:30 that DURING THOSE 40 MINUTES THE AMBULANCE WAS INSIDE THE RESIDENCE - 8 TO 10 EMPLOYEES LEFT THE PREMISES !!!
They left before the ambulance left so I don't think they saw the stretcher.
Purelove I think you are tired and I am too...I give you the exact minute where to listen and you don't hear?
I go to bed now, see you tomorrow bearhugQuoteI watched the 5th part of her testimony and she doesn't say anything like she left the property.
It's not the fifh part, it's the 3rd part, I posted it above, listen at 13 /scream/ /scream/ /scream/ /scream/ crash/ crash/
I'm not tired gina. You are overreacting before you understand what I say. I watched the videos you posted BUT ALSO I watched the 5th part of her testimony. And she didn't say that she left the house in the 5th part too. That's what I was saying. Ben says employees left but which ones? Is Kai one of them? Maybe yes, maybe no. I'm not opposing that she left the house before the ambulance, so I don't get why you are screaming at my face. I think we should all be patient and try to understand what every each of us are trying to say. There's no need for frustration and overreacting.
Post by: PureLove on November 25, 2011, 09:10:48 PM
A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax. And if we're trying to keep as few people as we can in on the hoax, then we can skip the paramedics. They could be deceived by a corpse. I don't know about the doctors tho if they could be deceived or not but the DA has to be in on it. A corpse would explain why the room was heated in the middle of summer and why the paramedics told that they couldn't recognize MJ and told that the man was an old, fragile, Asian man. Probably the paramedics were told about the hoax later and that is the reason why they changed their statements at the trial about recognizing MJ. This is one of the corpse theories.
The second theory of mine about the corpse is; a corpse was used not because the paramedics didn't know about the hoax or the doctors but a corpse was used for them to tell what they really did with the corpse instead of pretending and saying things. Talking about the actual motions is easier to create things in your mind and pretend what you did with the body. [/b]
And for remembering real events, a dummy would do. Using a real corpse just for that reason, seems useless, it's still a dead human being you're dealing with.
Well you can not apply all the procedures on a dummy. And I do believe that a real body would be more useful for the paramedics and the doctors to apply all the procedures on it and tell about what they did instead of pretending doing all the stuff. To me this is a plausible necessarity of using a corpse.
Oh? Do you think it's easy to intubate a long dead corpse? You can do many things with a dummy. You can intubate it, perform CPR on it, give it mouth-to-mouth etc. They even have dummies these days that can give birth to a baby dummy. Handeling a dummy is much easier than using a corpse. Plus you will damage the body: break ribs, damage tissue etc. So as long as there is no valid reason to use it, it's useless.
I'm not opposing to the dummy theory. That is very plausible as well but still the corpse theory fits perfectly in my mind. I mentioned in my first post that the corpse needed to be died soon, actually on the 25th.
A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax.And that is the reason why the room was hot, and they were trying to keep the body warm. Handeling a dummy is easier but still it doesn't give the reality for the paramedics and the doctors to tell what they did on it. I think there would be no problem at all to break the ribs etc with a donated corpse. Plus we heard that the ribs were broken during the CPR.
Post by: bec on November 25, 2011, 10:07:05 PM
Poop.
But like Andrea said, I don't agree that by itself means the Live MJ theory is debunked. Each option is fraught with risk so I don't think you can use "risk" as supportive evidence against anything. If avoiding "risk" were a major concern, MJ would have given up before he began the hoax. I'm a mess this weekend but I have to say this straight away to the current topic:
Who says the room was hot? Or should I say says who? It wasn't even testified to. I don't understand why this rumor has been elevated to accepted truth?
In any case months ago I posted a thing about how the coroner determines t.o.d. and it has to do with the body core temp vs. the ambient room temp, it's a mathematical equation, you plug the numbers in and it gives you a number of hours since death. At that time no one had recorded the room temp at Carrolwood (no record of it and no statement made) and I don't think this ever changed.
Considering the Coroner would be the one to use room temp and compare it to core temp (think meat thermometer...), and the Paramedics took no "room temp" readings to include in their report, and the Coroner showed up hours later... IF the room temp actually was elevated... it's purpose was probably more likely to prevent a dummy from being too cool to the touch... then to warm up a frozen corpse.
Post by: PureLove on November 25, 2011, 10:37:48 PM
@TS, I concede I see what's probably a leg where you highlighted.
Who says the room was hot? Or should I say says who? It wasn't even testified to. I don't understand why this rumor has been elevated to accepted truth?
There was also pictures of the room with a burning fireplace. A burning fireplace in the middle of summer. What else could it be for if it wasn't on to keep the newly dead body warm?
Post by: bec on November 25, 2011, 10:59:20 PM
Maybe the fireplace was turned on to fuel the "MJ was always cold and weak and shivering" rumors that Kenny was spreading.
And so what about a pic? We have 2 pics of MJ's supposed dead body too. Look, I'm not trying to be difficult, there's problems with this theory.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 25, 2011, 11:08:58 PM
Fordtocarr, TS said we should not look at what would have happened or would not have happened based upon what we feel MJ would or wouldn't do in a general sense, but in a logical sense in order to succeed pulling off a hoax of this scale. I myself didn't like the idea of a corpse but considered it is possible, especially now. If he faked his death for serious reasons too, then it is understandable and the public would grasp the idea better.
Souza, I wasn't implying you're dumb and should therefore do research, but if you did research you would know that the word "useless" is incorrect when applied to the corpse theory. That is saying it would have been ineffective which is wrong. Maybe more so than a dummy, a corpse would be of greater effect. If you read my posts and others, I have given a coherent theory as to why a corpse or dummy, or even both, were used. I did not say it is 100% fact, but given our options it is most plausible. And yes, it is possible Jermaine could have been on the stretcher, but not probable. There is a difference. :)
Like I said, maybe both a dummy and corpse were used. In what order, I don't know, but a freshly deceased corpse would be suitable. They are able to be "experimented" on for up to 10 hrs; that is all that is needed.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 25, 2011, 11:45:07 PM
@PureLove, you have not given me one good reason why a corpse would be required. Like I said: if it is only for creating a scenario, a dummy could do the trick.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 26, 2011, 12:06:13 AM
You asked: why a corpse instead of a dummy?
I answered: It could have been both, but a corpse could have been more *effective*. Consider the fact that it's a real body and more than two personnel were present at the hospital who were most likely not in the know.
My coherent theory shows BOTH are probable. Anyway, let's not be rude, english is in fact my native language.
Post by: bec on November 26, 2011, 12:35:02 AM
Let that be a lesson to us all :twisted: argue/ bangbang
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 26, 2011, 12:36:54 AM
/bravo/
Post by: reasonables+luvs+MJ on November 26, 2011, 01:01:07 AM
Post by: RK on November 26, 2011, 01:04:59 AM
Quote
The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.This line from Adi's post makes sense to me. Coupled with the information we have that no employees, excluding Dr Murray, were allowed upstairs. So that gets rid of MJ in person on the stretcher..... so the options of a corpse or dummy remain. Or possibly a combination of the two were used in entirety. A dummy from Carolwood to UCLA and a donated body from the hospital to the coroner for autopsy.[even if chief coroner is in on it]. I still think about the story of James Brown's body disappearing, along with Murray allegedly being his doctor at one stage. :?
As for questioning if Kai is in on the hoax, I am going to say no based on the information at hand that she was sent out of the mansion with the majority of the other staff. She'll probably feel a little foolish post BAM for talking about MJ perving at her butt all over the television in the weeks after the illusion went live, along with so many others who came out of the woodwork to capitalize on their association with MJ.
TS, your own words from your last post call the hoax..... 'a production, MJ's biggest and most important, that has been in production for a long time'..... This is what trips us up and has us believing every man and his dog is in on it from time to time, allowing us to speculate and envision scenarios without limit, but limited in common sense and do-ability in the real world. So bringing it all back to the need to know basis, we are left with Murray, Alvarez , the high-fiving body guards, paramedics, Michael Amir, the two doctors at UCLA, the coroner, Ben Evanstead and the other photographer Chris.
Wow, I have come full circle from no body----to a dummy / cadaver combo. Where are you I'mconvinced?
Post by: Grace on November 26, 2011, 01:27:22 AM
Was it the same room at all?
When was it taken? In advance or at the exact time the CPR was being performed (and who would have a camera at hand at such a moment ...) or after everybody had left the house? When family was moving stuff out?
We have learned that a picture is NO proof of anything, haven't we?
We have learned that a statement of no matter who is NO proof of anything, haven't we?
The whole hoax has been a structured publishing series of sessions that made up a movie in our mind.
These sequences in our mind make it so difficult to put ourselves into a movie production scenario.
Actors only know the script but don't know what the movie will look like because they shoot sequences in production-conform timing, not in movie-conform timing. It doesn't matter how a movie is being shot as long as the director has a plan to put the pieces together afterwards.
We did not even get a script beforehand despite our important role in this play.
That's why everything is so confusing and so hard to debunk.
As to all pictures, videos, interviews, contradicting witness testimonies and each and every paper in tabloids or overheads presented in the trial: there has been a line of garbage bins on June 25, 2009 and ever since we were given additional garbage bins. I have not counted them, but there were many.
I do not consider any of those presented materials or statement as valid, truthful or giving reality in any glimpse.
I have thrown everything that got life as "evidence" into a garbage bin that has become quite full now and is about to go to the dump. Most of what was presented was a means to make it part of the illusionary building and not to give the truth. Prop on the stage that was broadened to the world.
If we take away the veil of all that has been poured over us since 2+ years, there is little that remains and it is this:
Michael disappeared (must not have been on the 25th even).
Carolwood house was used as a stage.
An ambulance was called and drove away to UCLA.
A circus broke loose where some prepared material and distribution channels were used to induce an avalanche of imagination, speculation and illusion. Ever since, Michael has bought time to do what he intended.
I cannot take the picture of the fireplace serious as evidence since there is no proof it was showing the right room at the right time.
Whether another one died that day, a corpse or a dummy was in the house, who or what was put on the stretcher before leaving to UCLA, who or what arrived there, who or what was being treated or not treated there, who or what left with the heli, who or what arrived at the Coroner and who or what left the Coroner - all of this depends on the motivations, overall goal and objectives of the play. These we do not know as we are not MJ nor do we know whether there was a sting or not against whom. Obviously we are not only speculating but also phantasizing, at least this was mentioned.
So in order to not speculate or phantasize, I am going to call the garbage collection service now.
Btw. Michael knew a sober approach would happen sooner or later.
Or else he would have had a hole in his plan.
Still I believe that we did a great job so far, taking into consideration what we had to deal with. Proud of the family here.
It's the journey not the target.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 26, 2011, 01:29:24 AM
Also using a corpse is too much harder to control, you have to actually get the corpse from somewhere and that would allow for more participants in the hoax and you have to get the corpse in the house without anyone noticing and keep it 'fresh' I guess, don't know the right word to use, so it seems to risky...and TS said something like SUCCESS is the key, which could mean, the most successful is the least riskiest...
...then you also have a corpse (if it is supposed to be seen by others who are not in the hoax) not looking like MJ...and when Blunt said he recognized MJ straight away, then it doesn't make to have a corpse because what are the chances that the corpse will look like MJ?...so it seems more fitting for there to be a dummy who looks like MJ (which would presumably fit with what Blunt said).
Post by: curls on November 26, 2011, 01:49:50 AM
(Random comment - the fire pic was supposedly in MJ's private room, not the 'death' room, if that helps anyone with their 'keeping-a-corpse-warm' theory!)
Sorry if I appear to be flogging a dead horse, so to speak, but does anyone else remember hearing someone say they covered MJ's face for privacy during transportation? I know I'm not making that up! From my memory it could have been one of the paramedics or maybe Murray who said it.
If whatever was on the stretcher was covered, no unwanted prying eyes would see anything they shouldn't - remember we're only talking Carolwood > UCLA at the moment. Logical conclusion for me is still that NOTHING was on the stretcher but that pile of ''body shaped' sheets and pillows people were laughing at a few hours ago!
Furthermore, if an event was to occur on the journey, like an accident or break-down, (which is a scenario that may well have been factored in at the planning stage) and the contents of the ambulance were revealed, 'nothing', aka a pile of sheets, is far more easily explained than a dummy, or a corpse you're trying to pretend is Michael Jackson!
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 26, 2011, 02:13:13 AM
Anybody having the EXIF data of the "fire in fireplace" room heating picture?
Was it the same room at all?
When was it taken? In advance or at the exact time the CPR was being performed (and who would have a camera at hand at such a moment ...) or after everybody had left the house? When family was moving stuff out?
We have learned that a picture is NO proof of anything, haven't we?
We have learned that a statement of no matter who is NO proof of anything, haven't we?
The whole hoax has been a structured publishing series of sessions that made up a movie in our mind.
These sequences in our mind make it so difficult to put ourselves into a movie production scenario.
Actors only know the script but don't know what the movie will look like because they shoot sequences in production-conform timing, not in movie-conform timing. It doesn't matter how a movie is being shot as long as the director has a plan to put the pieces together afterwards.
We did not even get a script beforehand despite our important role in this play.
That's why everything is so confusing and so hard to debunk.
As to all pictures, videos, interviews, contradicting witness testimonies and each and every paper in tabloids or overheads presented in the trial: there has been a line of garbage bins on June 25, 2009 and ever since we were given additional garbage bins. I have not counted them, but there were many.
I do not consider any of those presented materials or statement as valid, truthful or giving reality in any glimpse.
I have thrown everything that got life as "evidence" into a garbage bin that has become quite full now and is about to go to the dump. Most of what was presented was a means to make it part of the illusionary building and not to give the truth. Prop on the stage that was broadened to the world.
If we take away the veil of all that has been poured over us since 2+ years, there is little that remains and it is this:
Michael disappeared (must not have been on the 25th even).
Carolwood house was used as a stage.
An ambulance was called and drove away to UCLA.
A circus broke loose where some prepared material and distribution channels were used to induce an avalanche of imagination, speculation and illusion. Ever since, Michael has bought time to do what he intended.
I cannot take the picture of the fireplace serious as evidence since there is no proof it was showing the right room at the right time.
Whether another one died that day, a corpse or a dummy was in the house, who or what was put on the stretcher before leaving to UCLA, who or what arrived there, who or what was being treated or not treated there, who or what left with the heli, who or what arrived at the Coroner and who or what left the Coroner - all of this depends on the motivations, overall goal and objectives of the play. These we do not know as we are not MJ nor do we know whether there was a sting or not against whom. Obviously we are not only speculating but also phantasizing, at least this was mentioned.
So in order to not speculate or phantasize, I am going to call the garbage collection service now.
Btw. Michael knew a sober approach would happen sooner or later.
Or else he would have had a hole in his plan.
Still I believe that we did a great job so far, taking into consideration what we had to deal with. Proud of the family here.
It's the journey not the target.
/bravo/ Grace!
Blessings LOVE and LIGHT!
Post by: reveron1958 on November 26, 2011, 03:42:52 AM
This was in Michael's own room I believe? Murry said in the documentary that Michael did go off into his own room that night/morning, so it is possible Michael put the fire on if he was cold. (Are LA nights cold in June?)
BUT even if he did, if this is a real log fire the logs would have burned out long before the LAPD/Coroners got in to take photos. If it is actually on in the photo then someone came and lit it again.
If this is a FAKE log fire, then it is possible is was put on during the night and was still on when they took photos.
The fire probably has no significance at all, but it has always puzzled me. :?
Post by: reveron1958 on November 26, 2011, 03:45:25 AM
Post by: MJonmind on November 26, 2011, 04:08:04 AM
--Used already for the ambulance and autopsy pics.
--realism for all who needed to be working on a body, including “grievers” at UCLA.
--good for body shape for body bag in heli to coroner van.
--good for risky chance that random outsiders would catch a glimpse in the inside house, ambu, UCLA, heli, coroner van.
--all procedures could be done on a high-tech dummy.
--no legal, sanitation, moral, emotional problems.
--no decaying happening for events happening weeks later such as make-up by LJ and KF.
--hint by Lou Forringi about MJ using a dummy in an ambulance to mislead paps.
--someone mentioned body could be brought into the house in sections in bags, and dismantled similarly at UCLA for removal.
--best fit for MJ’s hoax needing to be on a certain day, hard to find a matching body happening to die close to the day.
Paula-c
Quote
And who is this video of the bodyguards celebrating among them? If i remember correctly that video was recorded from the top and someone who was inside the house, it is no fansGood question and for what purpose? And why even release it unless for hoax purposes. Do we know for a fact that it was even filmed on the 25th of June? I think add it to "the other day" when MJ himself could have taken it outside his window. I think they did a TON of stuff that other day. /cook/ :lol:
TS
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all indicate that the face is actually someone walking on the far side of the stretcher.But it is obvious that the releasing of just those 7 pics showing glimpses of someone looking like MJ sitting up, is a deliberate hoax distraction. How many similar things haven't been designed into the hoax, simply for the illusion factor. Those things have sent hoaxers crazy for 2+ years.
mj_bad/
BeTheChange
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P.S. The Murray being MJ in disguise sure was fun while it lasted (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/file:///C:\Users\THEFAM~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif) (I can hear PureLove gloating as I type (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/file:///C:\Users\THEFAM~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif))
That only debunks MJ being Murray on the 25th of June, not on other occasions. I’m still a strong believer that there were 2 Murrays, that MJ was “Murray” on Youtube at least. Originally I thought MJ only disguised as Murray on a few occasions, so I now fall back to that, situations where long close-ups and height is not as much a factor.
Dontwalkaway and Mimi248
I know what you’re saying. I think that God usually provides miracles when it’s the last resort after natural means aren’t feasible, or where they are not realily detectable. Often so-called miracles have a scientific basis, one that hasn’t been understood. Possibly the supernatural elements in play on that 25th “death” day, were simply that all complex facets of the hoax went smoothly with little or no glitches (that we are aware of) and that no one spilled the beans. That’s a miracle right there! Especially with no rehearsal! If some condradictions were accidentally helpful for the hoax, maybe God was smiling down and adding his little bits! As far as the lists you gave of out-side-the-box things, I don’t know which things are valid but my guess is half may be human creations of imagination—but I’m not sure of which half. Lol Jesus most likely was more human than we suspect, along with other similar figures for previous ages, not making it as difficult a task for MJ to become another “Jesus” type for this age—still all under God’s complete design and control, but this is not the thread for that.
RK
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She'll probably feel a little foolish post BAM for talking about MJ perving at her butt all over the television in the weeks after the illusion went live, along with so many others who came out of the woodwork to capitalize on their association with MJ.Kai won’t feel alone! I really think MJ’s heard just about every possible slap, desire/lust, hate, lie that could be imagined all this time. Let the man have a little fun as a “ghost”! afraid/
And I liked your list of who might be in on the hoax.
Grace
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The whole hoax has been a structured publishing series of sessions that made up a movie in our mind.Yes, like a magician’s slight-of-hand using distractions. The human mind automatically starts making assumptions, and fills in with the most logical conclusions. So on the 25th, only the most visual things happened in live time, and all the other details could be been added as needed but prepared well in advance, such as Murray’s pics and videos with his non-growing child. Many things simply didn't even need to happen such as Kathy rubbing MJ's feet, and Karen Faye doing MJ's make-up, and on and on.
These sequences in our mind make it so difficult to put ourselves into a movie production scenario.
Actors only know the script but don't know what the movie will look like because they shoot sequences in production-conform timing, not in movie-conform timing. It doesn't matter how a movie is being shot as long as the director has a plan to put the pieces together afterwards.
I think it would be a great idea for someone to make a list of all the details we've heard or read for the 25th that supposedly happened that day, that really didn't have to be done at all, since they pertained to people in on the hoax. And things visual that didn't need to be more than photoshopped such as the fire for a supposedly hot bedroom, that no one not in on it actually witnessed.
Just some additional thoughts.
About Murray getting juice for MJ every night, and any food such as the soup on the 24th. Kai doesn’t need to be in it. We read earlier that for propofol to be given the patient cannot have any food or drink for 8 (not sure) hours before, because of the risk of aspirating while unconscious. In court they said Murray had no equipment for suctioning. This proves to me that Murray for those 6 weeks was only fake-giving him propofol and other meds. They were probably flushed down the toilet or disposed of, or how much of this also should go on the didn't need to happen list.
Another thing, can anyone remember from in court or elsewhere who all remembered meeting or ever seeing Conrad Murray besides Kenny Ortega who got into that disagreement with him over sending MJ home? This whole thing with Murray is so cloudy. Was he really a doctor or an actor? Were those really patients or actors? Was his name really changed?
These things certainly affect how many were in on the hoax.
Just remembering something TS said a while back about this. He said that for Elvis' hoax, only 6 people were in on it. His own father Vernon didn't get to be told because he died before he could tell him, and he had been planning to tell him soon. Obviously MJ's hoax is much more complex and requires more in on it. So perhaps having only 30 or so in on it could be manageable-- 2-3 people in key stations, but there's a lot of stations bounce/ to man.
About the 3 kids being in, I think that Prince and Paris could have been told the day before by MJ, or they would have been hysterical. Later as the 3 were taken to Encino, Blanket could have been told about his Dad taking a trip away for a bit, until they saw signs of him questioning that. In reality an event like that is totally traumatizing for especially children, let alone his precious ones. Long ago, my younger brother at 14 had to witness my mother dying and called 911. I’m so thankful I wasn’t living at home at the time because I would have been errrr .
Post by: MJonmind on November 26, 2011, 05:13:21 AM
It's also like a tapestry to me, that in process seems messy and nonsensical many times, but will show its beauty more and more near its completion.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/tapestry.jpg)
Post by: Suzy7 on November 26, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Mjonmind, good post and you made good points.
As for everything else, I don't care if there was a corpse, a mummy, shrek or a goat on that stretcher; I think this chapter just needs to close already >:P.
Post by: emulik on November 26, 2011, 06:47:33 AM
in my opinion, there are so many things that are going with this Archangel Michael theory..one year ago I found out that 29 th August is day when Archangel Michael is celebrated...which is also Michael Jacksons birthday..maybe coincidence, but it is interesting..QuoteMJ is really dead at the moment BUT will resurect.
...and people say believers are delusional :roll: :roll: :roll:...
good night bearhug
i know but i think it's a theorie maybe crazy of course! OMG i just really think that MJ IS Archangel Michael if you just explore this theorie and make your own opinion WITHOUT using Bible and religions! you could probably be driven to the same idea .
Post by: mimi248 on November 26, 2011, 07:28:12 AM
in my opinion, there are so many things that are going with this Archangel Michael theory..one year ago I found out that 29 th August is day when Archangel Michael is celebrated...which is also Michael Jacksons birthday..maybe coincidence, but it is interesting..QuoteMJ is really dead at the moment BUT will resurect.
...and people say believers are delusional :roll: :roll: :roll:...
good night bearhug
i know but i think it's a theorie maybe crazy of course! OMG i just really think that MJ IS Archangel Michael if you just explore this theorie and make your own opinion WITHOUT using Bible and religions! you could probably be driven to the same idea .
I think you're wrong :s Archangel Michael is celebrated on September 29 th Anyway it's also VERY near 1 MONTH OMG . AND i DO agree with you I truly think that we have to think totally OUTSIIIDE the box to find the TRUE and understand the L.I.E :) And to me, there are TOO MUCH coincidences between MJ and Jesus or Archangel Michael and this can't be ignored, otherwise, we won't find who is THE MAN we never knew :) . LOVE
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 26, 2011, 07:36:09 AM
In this actual video, it does show a tourist taking a few photos from the bus...
Who was behind me taking the video?? Because Ben didn't get there until 12.40pm.
We,ve been told that Chris Weiss was already there, taking still shots, who else has footage of that fateful day and why haven't they ever been released?
Also I want to listen to this tape.......it was the paramedics that gave information to the LAPD, who then, decided to investigate further.
Look at the pictures of this double acting dead......Geez his body looks soooooo much like MJ's death photo /woohoo/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgD4COfhrLU
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgD4COfhrLU[/youtube]
Post by: Adi on November 26, 2011, 07:51:52 AM
As for everything else, I don't care if there was a corpse, a mummy, shrek or a goat on that stretcher; I think this chapter just needs to close already >:P.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Sorry - off topic I know......couldn't resist.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gjBhRn94UBo[/youtube]
Post by: Kristina4LOVE on November 26, 2011, 09:18:01 AM
TS i am not lazy (at least that's what i think :lol:) I really have no time to read all 44 pages of this thread, but today i did my best and i have a couple of things to add. If this has been already said, please feel free to delete my post. Again i'm sorry for not reading the entire thread! :oops:
As i understand right now we are on 7b, who/what if anything went to UCLA.
I saw here someone asked question do we know if Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen actually real doctors and they work in UCLA? I think that i found the answer. They both are real doctors and they work in UCLA.
Dr. Cooper http://www.emergencymedicine.ucla.edu/view_people_leadership.php?pid=3
Dr. Nguyen http://www.uclahealth.org/body.cfm?xyzpdqabc=0&id=479&action=detail&ref=122821 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/thao-nguyen/9/706/368
As far as i know they are the only doctors who testified from UCLA, which is weird, because Dr. Cooper testified that at least other 14 nurses and doctors were in the emergency room working on Michael on June 25th.
Why would they help Michael? (i think that nothing or a dummy went to UCLA) From the book written by J. Randy Taraborrelli we can see that Michael was connected with UCLA and medicine in general since 80's.
"The peculiar idea came to Michael during the time, after his burn accident, when he had become fascinated with medicine. He'd become a ravenous reader of medical books and enjoyed reading and hearing about dreadful diseases. for a while, he also became obsessed with learning about different surgeries, going so far as to witness operations at UCLA Medical Center.
'Michael's curious about surgery,' said one former associate. 'he gets off on it. he can watch for hours. He especially likes to watch plastic surgeries - tummy tucks, liposuction, he's into all of that. He has even witnessed brain surgeries."
It means that he had some VERY good ties in UCLA, because they won't just let any random person to witness surgeries and he wasn't even a medical student.
Plus UCLA can be used as a location for shooting movies, http://map.ais.ucla.edu/portal/site/UCLA/menuitem.789d0eb6c76e7ef0d66b02ddf848344a/?vgnextoid=d6663139ab0b0110VgnVCM100000dcd76180RCRD. I think only these two doctors were more than enough to let in on it at UCLA. All blood and other tests were conducted under different name (Trauma Gershwin) as well as he was registered under this name in the hospital. The rest of emergency staff could see that something is going on but security could easily not let them in the emergency room where they were supposedly trying to save Michael.
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 26, 2011, 09:33:06 AM
Of course they needed to give more reality to the facts, but what should we think about the interviews of Mrs. Katherine, Jermaine and Latoya who described every moment of farewell among the sons of Michael? I thought for some reason Michael could be at UCLA, but now I'm very confused. I still think that presence of a double can do sense. So the family had gone there to support him and to track the success of events. In addition, there is a picture of the litter coming to UCLA where we can see someone sitting.
The option: "nobody or nothing go to UCLA" would be much more risky than Michael himself! There are curious everywhere, is not?
In relation to people in house, all who testified, I think they're in the farce. Kai Chase has already been seen in the White House ... so maybe it is a federal agent? Maybe a chef FBI agent? In addition, she was hired a few weeks before Michael's death and was instrumental as an eyewitness of the facts, including on the oxygen tanks. Can everybody here believed in her testify?? /cook/
Alvarez and Amir seem very loyal to Michael ... they certainly are within the farce too!
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 26, 2011, 09:47:20 AM
You all are my heroes!!! I don't know where you get time and power to do your research and post your thoughts! Thank you so much for everything! bow/
TS i am not lazy (at least that's what i think :lol:) I really have no time to read all 44 pages of this thread, but today i did my best and i have a couple of things to add. If this has been already said, please feel free to delete my post. Again i'm sorry for not reading the entire thread! :oops:
As i understand right now we are on 7b, who/what if anything went to UCLA.
I saw here someone asked question do we know if Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen actually real doctors and they work in UCLA? I think that i found the answer. They both are real doctors and they work in UCLA.
Dr. Cooper http://www.emergencymedicine.ucla.edu/view_people_leadership.php?pid=3
Dr. Nguyen http://www.uclahealth.org/body.cfm?xyzpdqabc=0&id=479&action=detail&ref=122821 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/thao-nguyen/9/706/368
As far as i know they are the only doctors who testified from UCLA, which is weird, because Dr. Cooper testified that at least other 14 nurses and doctors were in the emergency room working on Michael on June 25th.
Why would they help Michael? (i think that nothing or a dummy went to UCLA) From the book written by J. Randy Taraborrelli we can see that Michael was connected with UCLA and medicine in general since 80's.
"The peculiar idea came to Michael during the time, after his burn accident, when he had become fascinated with medicine. He'd become a ravenous reader of medical books and enjoyed reading and hearing about dreadful diseases. for a while, he also became obsessed with learning about different surgeries, going so far as to witness operations at UCLA Medical Center.
'Michael's curious about surgery,' said one former associate. 'he gets off on it. he can watch for hours. He especially likes to watch plastic surgeries - tummy tucks, liposuction, he's into all of that. He has even witnessed brain surgeries."
It means that he had some VERY good ties in UCLA, because they won't just let any random person to witness surgeries and he wasn't even a medical student.
Plus UCLA can be used as a location for shooting movies, http://map.ais.ucla.edu/portal/site/UCLA/menuitem.789d0eb6c76e7ef0d66b02ddf848344a/?vgnextoid=d6663139ab0b0110VgnVCM100000dcd76180RCRD. I think only these two doctors were more than enough to let in on it at UCLA. All blood and other tests were conducted under different name (Trauma Gershwin) as well as he was registered under this name in the hospital. The rest of emergency staff could see that something is going on but security could easily not let them in the emergency room where they were supposedly trying to save Michael.
Interesting post! Besides all the above, we still know that Arnie Klein is a director of the UCLA ... I know that not everyone likes it, but I think Klein can be in the scam and have also helped Michael.
Even Dr. Cooper and his Assistant being in farce, they would need someone to stay in the stretcher and bed of the emergency, for added security and to ensure that nothing went wrong. My theory of a double, it still makes sense, then. But it seems I'm alone!
We also discuss about the coroner? Whatever has gone there, he has to be 100% in the hoax, there is no other way ... unless a corpse of a double .... hum .... I think not!
Post by: MaryK on November 26, 2011, 10:00:19 AM
TS told us clearly that Michael did not go to UCLA on June 25, 2009, but there are images that show that the family was there. These images were also in real time? WTF??
What if the family members had not been informed beforehand?
What do you think?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 26, 2011, 10:26:41 AM
If I can recall, Kai said that Paris and Blanket were downstairs with her, praying with the other workers. And then her story changed to all three of them were in the hallway. I'm not saying that she's a 'major' part of it because maybe she had forgotten, but ... that was probably part of the stript.
Kai is highly suspicious to me because of what you just said and because she looks to be the only one who heard Murray coming frantic downstairs and you know why? Because first couple of days after June 25th it was made PUBLIC another scenario of events surrounding the death: it was said that Michael was in the living room with Prince and they were dancing and Michael suddenly collapsed. That's what I've heard with my own ears those days. Now we have a different course of events confirmed by who else but Ms. Kai Chase.
And also the fact that the prosecuter asks her what happened next, meaning after the paramedics rushed upstairs, and she says she doesn't know because she and the other staff were (conveniently) asked to leave the residence.
Post by: Elsa on November 26, 2011, 10:38:21 AM
Post by: Grace on November 26, 2011, 10:58:01 AM
It is all hear-say.
It is so perfect to add drama.
When and where did we see them again after June 25?
Where they in Caliland at all that day?
When do summer holidays start in CA?
They were said to have had a private homeschool teacher until 2010?
So who would notice if they were not in CA?
I put everything concerning the kids into drama class and my garbage bin.
Especially the so-said connection to Kai Chase and Nanny Grace and their appearance at the memorial.
They were introduced to the world so the world would take notice and ask for them.
That's a very good protection, too.
But hoaxwise? Drama class.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 26, 2011, 12:45:16 PM
What I have against it is Senneff's testimony - which doesn't match the dummy theory from my point of view, but I don't have "logical" proof for this statement, it is just my subjective impression about the realism and sincerity of his testimony.
In a few words, he didn't tell lies or lines from a script, but the honest truth of what he saw and did that day.
But again I don't have proof, it is just my subjective analysis of his overall behavior in court.
Because of him I tried other options that could have left him out of the hoax, like the corpse theory.
Though I agree with some of the cons to the corps theory, like it is morbid and it is not hygienic to have it in the house.
Maybe I should watch Senneff's testimony again tonight.
Or better, maybe TS would be so nice to give us another option that can be eliminated.
Post by: Sarahli on November 26, 2011, 01:00:42 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 26, 2011, 01:03:28 PM
The only time I can think of the possible need of a real body is concerning the medical personnel who supposedly worked with Dr Cooper and Dr Nguyen. If it really happened how they described it, it's too many people to include in the know so they would have to be fooled somehow. I know we might just say that it didn't happen, they just "filled in the blanks" and it's an easy thing to do as they're used to these emergency situations. But I have this question in my mind: don't they work as a team? I am thinking that these doctors may usually work with specific medical staff? So if nothing happened these people would question. Not sure about all that just thinking out loud.
You have a point.
I also find hard to believe there were 14 people at UCLA who worked on the body. I think it is too many people.
Post by: VeryLittleSusie on November 26, 2011, 01:08:43 PM
So I would stick to a dummy theory as the most plausible thus making more people involved in the hoax.
If Michael promised to build a children's hospital to UCLA then why not help him in a movie production?
And as to LAPD - maybe they wanted to compensate for the false accusations in 1993 and 2004?
The staff at home and bodyguards - it's obvious. They must be involved. Having about couple of dozens of people on a payroll is not that much. Each Hollywood production has almost three times more of staff involved...
Really don't know what to think, just my 2 cents... I'm not as brilliant as you guys, so please.... albino/ /white flag/
Post by: Sarahli on November 26, 2011, 01:12:10 PM
The only time I can think of the possible need of a real body is concerning the medical personnel who supposedly worked with Dr Cooper and Dr Nguyen. If it really happened how they described it, it's too many people to include in the know so they would have to be fooled somehow. I know we might just say that it didn't happen, they just "filled in the blanks" and it's an easy thing to do as they're used to these emergency situations. But I have this question in my mind: don't they work as a team? I am thinking that these doctors may usually work with specific medical staff? So if nothing happened these people would question. Not sure about all that just thinking out loud.
You have a point.
I also find hard to believe there were 14 people at UCLA who worked on the body. I think it is too many people.
I just need to correct myself in saying that they described things like they most probaly would have happened if it was real. So even if nothing happened and if they really work as a team what do we make of these people? The problem is that I don't know it's just a thought I had.
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 26, 2011, 01:24:43 PM
The only time I can think of the possible need of a real body is concerning the medical personnel who supposedly worked with Dr Cooper and Dr Nguyen. If it really happened how they described it, it's too many people to include in the know so they would have to be fooled somehow. I know we might just say that it didn't happen, they just "filled in the blanks" and it's an easy thing to do as they're used to these emergency situations. But I have this question in my mind: don't they work as a team? I am thinking that these doctors may usually work with specific medical staff? So if nothing happened these people would question. Not sure about all that just thinking out loud.
You have a point.
I also find hard to believe there were 14 people at UCLA who worked on the body. I think it is too many people.
An emergency medical team is usually done with two doctors and two nurses (maximum). But everyone has access to the patient's vital signs (blood pressure, respiration, temperature, heartbeat and brain signals).
Perhaps don't have been a real medical care at UCLA in june 25. In fact, it is still unknown why the fire alarm sounded at the time Michael was supposedly being attended.
It could be a way to Dr. Cooper and the Asian doctor to be alone with the double?
TS, there are still many unanswered questions. /pull hair/ Are you sure that we close it in three days?
Sorry, but if you do not can release more information, we never will close a coherent theory and make clear to others who seek this forum (after the Bam) that we understand the whole situation.
Post by: reasonables+luvs+MJ on November 26, 2011, 01:35:40 PM
MJ's hoax is certainly a puzzle that we have to find and correctly place all the pieces for it to make visual sense to us.
It's also like a tapestry to me, that in process seems messy and nonsensical many times, but will show its beauty more and more near its completion.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/tapestry.jpg)
True, true but I wonder what's going to be in store after all the puzzle is completed. It seems like there's a good possible that THAT would happen, but what if it doesn't?
Post by: scorpionchik on November 26, 2011, 02:39:47 PM
The only time I can think of the possible need of a real body is concerning the medical personnel who supposedly worked with Dr Cooper and Dr Nguyen. If it really happened how they described it, it's too many people to include in the know so they would have to be fooled somehow. I know we might just say that it didn't happen, they just "filled in the blanks" and it's an easy thing to do as they're used to these emergency situations. But I have this question in my mind: don't they work as a team? I am thinking that these doctors may usually work with specific medical staff? So if nothing happened these people would question. Not sure about all that just thinking out loud.
You have a point.
I also find hard to believe there were 14 people at UCLA who worked on the body. I think it is too many people.
Finally. Little by little you will come up with my theory that real Michael Jackson was in clinical death/coma, collapse, whatever can be applicable to his condition, and taken to the UCLA and brought back to life and escaped from hospital. In this most realistic scenario, you eliminate Murray and paramedics be in hoax, which is more reasonable since Murray undergone trial and will be convicted, UNLESS MAGIC HAPPENS AND MICHAEL BAMs ON THAT DAY IN THE COURT ROOM AND SAYS 'I AM ALIVE AND MURRAY WAS ASSISTING ME YOUR HONOR'. Only one of the doctors and coroner are in hoax, as well as bodyguards and family of course. Now, regarding authorities, they logically should be in hoax, who exactly and how many of them IDK.
This may opposes numerology and long time hoax plan version, which I have stated earlier I don't see any numerology correctly used to call it numerology. Moreover, Michael 10 years ago could not precisely plan who, how, where is going to be in hoax, including judge and jury, attorneys, etc., minute by minute work that timing out is too stressful and impossible involving too many people in hoax and traffic condition of the city, etc. I can list all obstacles that could easily ruin long time hoax plan, but I don't say it did not exist in Michael's mind or dairy. In fact it is a short time hoax due to assassination attempt, otherwise I don't see any reason for Michael to just play for fun.
Post by: MJonmind on November 26, 2011, 02:44:20 PM
Quote
Good reminder, I lean then to her in the hoax, but not the other housekeepers, though we only saw the one lady actually leave. Illusions.
In relation to people in house, all who testified, I think they're in the farce. Kai Chase has already been seen in the White House ... so maybe it is a federal agent? Maybe a chef FBI agent? In addition, she was hired a few weeks before Michael's death and was instrumental as an eyewitness of the facts, including on the oxygen tanks. Can everybody here believed in her testify??
Grace
Quote
We don't know whether the children were there.Yes! They haven't had to testify, so no need for them to retell what they didn't witness. This actually gives a possibility to the corpse, but I still prefer dummy.
It is all hear-say.
It is so perfect to add drama.
2good2btrue
Thanks for posting the VH1 Crime Scene Michael Jackson Part 2. That could even be the high-tech dummy that they used for the hoax. He looks so much like MJ at least in the face.
Post by: mimi248 on November 26, 2011, 02:53:04 PM
in my opinion, there are so many things that are going with this Archangel Michael theory..one year ago I found out that 29 th August is day when Archangel Michael is celebrated...which is also Michael Jacksons birthday..maybe coincidence, but it is interesting..QuoteMJ is really dead at the moment BUT will resurect.
...and people say believers are delusional :roll: :roll: :roll:...
good night bearhug
i know but i think it's a theorie maybe crazy of course! OMG i just really think that MJ IS Archangel Michael if you just explore this theorie and make your own opinion WITHOUT using Bible and religions! you could probably be driven to the same idea .
I think you're wrong :s Archangel Michael is celebrated on September 29 th Anyway it's also VERY near 1 MONTH OMG . AND i DO agree with you I truly think that we have to think totally OUTSIIIDE the box to find the TRUE and understand the L.I.E :) And to me, there are TOO MUCH coincidences between MJ and Jesus or Archangel Michael and this can't be ignored, otherwise, we won't find who is THE MAN we never knew :) . LOVE
haha ! not really :shock:. But i LOVE it :)
Yeah, i think someone really died on june 25th and this person IS Michael Jackson himself, then he resurected 3 days after using the jesus'theorie ' and that's why TMZ said " The body of MJ was gone".
please i know it's kinda scary but remember " I'm alive and i'm here forever", all signs symbolizing resurection, butterflies etc.. then, we got family saying odd things. i remember, Katherin saying " i believe in spirituality and i now i will see my son again at his resurection ." latoya said " MJ knew who he was" . and many others things. why are we called beLIEver? why knower? why was there 2 ambulances? the painting is also very symbolical and goes on the same way " the resurection theorie" i'm sorry for my bad english :s
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 26, 2011, 03:38:10 PM
But there's one thing bugging me: why the housekeepers were sent away before the ambulance? Normally I would do that if I had something to hide from them. So what was it they had to hide from them? My imagination doesn't help me this time.
...reminds me of one of my former employers, who i was told used to send everybody home when the tax collectors came in hmmmm... suspicious//
Or maybe it's not even this, maybe they wanted to prevent the employees to take photos of the stretcher, as simple as this.
Still, there is a problem: why would the emergency doctors at UCLA cooperate with him to let him escape, because this looks like a crime to me, no doctor in his/hers right mind would involve into such a risky unplanned thing. Could you imagine he just told them "you know docs, i would like to fake my death now" and they went like "OK Michael, you can run away through the back door".
Post by: BeTheChange on November 26, 2011, 03:48:56 PM
IF there was NO sting targeting anyone in the house, then those that saw the 'body' most likely were in on it...and I have no issue with that because there wasn't many that supposedly saw the 'body' at Carolwood. There was Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez (TS asked us to think of WHO saw the body before the paramedics arrived). So, at this stage anyway, if none of the above were targets of any sting, then why the need for a dummy or a corpse?
The only NEED would arise if any of the above had to be 'fooled' into thinking Mike had really died or was in the process of dying. But even then, these are all people that spent a lot of time with MJ....whether they were presented with a dummy or a real corpse, would they not notice that something wasn't right? I mean someone you see every single day (like a parent or sibling...would you not notice if they were replaced with a dummy or some other corpse??). I guess the argument could be made that the dummy was so life-like and MJ looking that they were fooled...but I'm not sure about that.
Thinking along those lines, I tend to believe that those who saw the body were in on it because if they weren't, they would've noticed that it was not MJ laying there (regardless of whether or not it was a dummy or some other corpse). IF any of them were targets of a sting and therefore needed to be 'fooled', then the most logical solution to that IMO would be a live MJ playing the part himself (i.e. it would be the most realistic and believable scenario). BUT, then the paramedics most definitely would have to be in on it since CPR and medications given would be dangerous to a live and healthy MJ.
However, IF they were in on it (just those that saw the body at Carolwood prior to paramedics arriving), then nothing would be needed because no one needed to be fooled. No dummy, no live MJ, no corpse...no nothing would be NEEDED.
At this point, the paramedics enter the picture. IF they are NOT in on it...would a dummy fool them? I highly doubt that, no matter how sophisticated this dummy could be. A real corpse could explain the discrepancies in testimony...however, we have at least one paramedic saying he recognized MJ immediately. Was he lying or telling the truth? We can't know for sure because the testimonies vary. However, the options are 1) ALL the paramedics were in on it, 2) NONE of them were in on it, or 3) only SOME of them were in on it. Again, the problem with a dummy arises whether none or some of them were in on it. If all of them were in on it, then WHY the need for anything? A real corpse, at this point, almost seems more logical than a dummy....but that would all depend on whether or not the paramedics were in on it (or some or none).
Putting that aside for a sec...the only other reason I could think of to use either a dummy or a real corpse would be for risk of being seen during transport. But did that risk even exist? The ambu windows are tinted and we know no one got a shot of the inside of the ambu on June 25th. No one saw anything being loaded into the ambulance at Carolwood (the closest thing we have is Ben's vid through the fence, which I still find confusing given the angle and proximity to the gate when compared to the circular drive of the house and the front door)....and no one saw anything, other than a stretcher, being wheeled into UCLA.
IF we are gonna SOLELY go on 'evidence' and what we can prove....I would have to say that based on what we have, mixed in with some thought processes/what makes sense....that nothing was 'loaded' into the ambulance at Carolwood (other than a stretcher and the personnel/Murray)...and the exact same (nothing) was wheeled into UCLA.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 26, 2011, 03:54:13 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 26, 2011, 03:59:52 PM
@mimi248 - as none of the theories presented here seem to match all the needed criteria, I think you could have a point - MJ died and he will ressurect :shock: :shock: :shock:
Post by: scorpionchik on November 26, 2011, 04:14:31 PM
@scorpionchik I was thinking of your scenario too in the past. Yes maybe something really happened to him and when he was revived he just decided to remain "dead", I can imagine him telling his managers "just tell them I'm dead".
But there's one thing bugging me: why the housekeepers were sent away before the ambulance? Normally I would do that if I had something to hide from them. So what was it they had to hide from them? My imagination doesn't help me this time.
...reminds me of one of my former employers, who i was told used to send everybody home when the tax collectors came in hmmmm... suspicious//
Or maybe it's not even this, maybe they wanted to prevent the employees to take photos of the stretcher, as simple as this.
Still, there is a problem: why would the emergency doctors at UCLA cooperate with him to let him escape, because this looks like a crime to me, no doctor in his/hers right mind would involve into such a risky unplanned thing. Could you imagine he just told them "you know docs, i would like to fake my death now" and they went like "OK Michael, you can run away through the back door".
I'll try to explain: Kai was told to go home because house should be locked when real MJ taken to hospital, they are not allowed to stay in the empty house. I don't recall Kai saying she was sent home before ambulance arrived, I remember she said she did not see whether Michael was taken, was on stretcher actually. Therefore, in the past I had a version of real corpse was taken to UCLA, but now I tend to believe it was MJ, fits more to latest events.
Why would UCLA doctor cooperate? Exactly for the reason I say: BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO ASSIST KOP GET AWAY OF ASSASINS, TO SAVE HIS LIFE. It is part of their duty. If anyone's life threaten they will cooperate with authorites and victim, and coroner writing fake autopcy also perfectly explained here. Either way doctors should be in hoax, whether corpse was used or real Michael was in UCLA. Helping real Michael is more reasonable, don't you think?
Now, we are coming back to the earlier theory of MJ being in protective custody, but his own VIP house, not government provided. The only questionable now is whether there is sting going on to reveal assassins or they just end with involuntary manslaughter and Michael will reveal the rest. In this case, maybe only doctors invloved and no authorities, though I doubt so and not sure but possible. One thing is fact that Jermain announced MJ 'death" not doctors.
Post by: luvandmissumike on November 26, 2011, 04:15:17 PM
Post by: scorpionchik on November 26, 2011, 04:27:19 PM
Post by: Starchild on November 26, 2011, 04:34:54 PM
I'm still getting stuck on WHO at Carolwood would need to be 'fooled' by either a real corpse or dummy (it seems we're down to 3 possibilites, those 2 and nothing at all going to UCLA). Remember, the question before us is what or who left Carolwood and went to UCLA...nothing beyond that. I'm thinking there has got to be a logical solution to this and that we're somehow missing something or thinking too much on it (kinda like 7a lol).
IF there was NO sting targeting anyone in the house, then those that saw the 'body' most likely were in on it...and I have no issue with that because there wasn't many that supposedly saw the 'body' at Carolwood. There was Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez (TS asked us to think of WHO saw the body before the paramedics arrived). So, at this stage anyway, if none of the above were targets of any sting, then why the need for a dummy or a corpse?
The only NEED would arise if any of the above had to be 'fooled' into thinking Mike had really died or was in the process of dying. But even then, these are all people that spent a lot of time with MJ....whether they were presented with a dummy or a real corpse, would they not notice that something wasn't right? I mean someone you see every single day (like a parent or sibling...would you not notice if they were replaced with a dummy or some other corpse??). I guess the argument could be made that the dummy was so life-like and MJ looking that they were fooled...but I'm not sure about that.
Thinking along those lines, I tend to believe that those who saw the body were in on it because if they weren't, they would've noticed that it was not MJ laying there (regardless of whether or not it was a dummy or some other corpse). IF any of them were targets of a sting and therefore needed to be 'fooled', then the most logical solution to that IMO would be a live MJ playing the part himself (i.e. it would be the most realistic and believable scenario). BUT, then the paramedics most definitely would have to be in on it since CPR and medications given would be dangerous to a live and healthy MJ.
However, IF they were in on it (just those that saw the body at Carolwood prior to paramedics arriving), then nothing would be needed because no one needed to be fooled. No dummy, no live MJ, no corpse...no nothing would be NEEDED.
At this point, the paramedics enter the picture. IF they are NOT in on it...would a dummy fool them? I highly doubt that, no matter how sophisticated this dummy could be. A real corpse could explain the discrepancies in testimony...however, we have at least one paramedic saying he recognized MJ immediately. Was he lying or telling the truth? We can't know for sure because the testimonies vary. However, the options are 1) ALL the paramedics were in on it, 2) NONE of them were in on it, or 3) only SOME of them were in on it. Again, the problem with a dummy arises whether none or some of them were in on it. If all of them were in on it, then WHY the need for anything? A real corpse, at this point, almost seems more logical than a dummy....but that would all depend on whether or not the paramedics were in on it (or some or none).
Putting that aside for a sec...the only other reason I could think of to use either a dummy or a real corpse would be for risk of being seen during transport. But did that risk even exist? The ambu windows are tinted and we know no one got a shot of the inside of the ambu on June 25th. No one saw anything being loaded into the ambulance at Carolwood (the closest thing we have is Ben's vid through the fence, which I still find confusing given the angle and proximity to the gate when compared to the circular drive of the house and the front door)....and no one saw anything, other than a stretcher, being wheeled into UCLA.
IF we are gonna SOLELY go on 'evidence' and what we can prove....I would have to say that based on what we have, mixed in with some thought processes/what makes sense....that nothing was 'loaded' into the ambulance at Carolwood (other than a stretcher and the personnel/Murray)...and the exact same (nothing) was wheeled into UCLA.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Don't know if this has already been tossed in the ring as an idea, but MJ reportedly went back and forth to Klein's office in May 2009. Could have been that half the time that "MJ" was actually a hospice patient receiving plastic surgery to look like MJ. Just a thought.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 26, 2011, 04:44:26 PM
Quote
Why would UCLA doctor cooperate? Exactly for the reason I say: BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO ASSIST KOP GET AWAY OF ASSASINS, TO SAVE HIS LIFE. It is part of their duty. If anyone's life threaten they will cooperate with authorites and victim, and coroner writing fake autopcy also perfectly explained here. Either way doctors should be in hoax, whether corpse was used or real Michael was in UCLA.
Could be. But still.....let's say they revive MJ at UCLA....is it reasonable to think that a person who was just revived can realize immediately he was the victim of a murder attempt and calls the authorities?
I am not saying that you could not be right but to me it looks like it is too sudden, I mean MJ had to prove somehow to authorities in less than an hour that he is the victim of a murder attempt and the authorities have to make a quick decision to fake his death.
It's like there's not enough time to do all these in an hour and a half or less, the time between the moment he arrived at UCLA and the moment Jermaine announced MJ's death. I mean revive him, MJ realizing someone tried to murder him when under perfusion and medication, calling authorities, proving to them someone tried to kill him and convincing them to assist him in faking his death...I don't know if it is possible.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 26, 2011, 05:03:38 PM
from scorpionQuoteWhy would UCLA doctor cooperate? Exactly for the reason I say: BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO ASSIST KOP GET AWAY OF ASSASINS, TO SAVE HIS LIFE. It is part of their duty. If anyone's life threaten they will cooperate with authorites and victim, and coroner writing fake autopcy also perfectly explained here. Either way doctors should be in hoax, whether corpse was used or real Michael was in UCLA.
Could be. But still.....let's say they revive MJ at UCLA....is it reasonable to think that a person who was just revived can realize immediately he was the victim of a murder attempt and calls the authorities?
I am not saying that you could not be right but to me it looks like it is too sudden, I mean MJ had to prove somehow to authorities in less than an hour that he is the victim of a murder attempt and the authorities have to make a quick decision to fake his death.
It's like there's not enough time to do all these in an hour and a half or less, the time between the moment he arrived at UCLA and the moment Jermaine announced MJ's death. I mean revive him, MJ realizing someone tried to murder him when under perfusion and medication, calling authorities, proving to them someone tried to kill him and convincing them to assist him in faking his death...I don't know if it is possible.
Michael could be announced dead but remain in the hospital of course and other process could go on later. The murderer was already in the ambulance with him and gave enough doubtful info to paramedics. MJ did not have to prove or realize anything in the condition he was brought to UCLA, IV in the room, etc. was enough. It is even possible La Toya/family said to doctors it is a murder attempt MJ was always afraid of, it is not an accident.
What about dummy or corpse version? Would UCLA doctors, coroner, etc. participate in foolish hoax reviving dummy/corpse and testify it was Michael Jackson? That sounds total BS to me. For that to be possible, the whole Los Angeles county must be in hoax which is NOT.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 26, 2011, 05:09:45 PM
Where are you I'mconvinced?I have been here the whole time reading along. I took myself/theory out of this thread for a few reasons. I wanted to see how many people would defend the corpse theory and what they would use as evidence to back it up. For me, I am still convinced a corpse was used and I have provided alot of evidence (not opinion only) to back up my theory. I have repeated my theory in many threads and for the most part I didn't think many were backing me in my theories. I felt like I was just being a parrot so this time around I took myself and my theory out of the equation. I surely can't be the only one who is competent to write a coherent theory for the corpse being used.
My theory still stands in other threads as what I believe and maybe soon I may bring that info here if TS doesn't move on to 7c to quickly. ;)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 26, 2011, 05:10:52 PM
Going to bed now, hoping that TS will post by tomorrow morning or I'll have a revealing dream /white flag/.
bearhug to Michael, wherever you are.
the corpse theory would be good but the main problem is how to get a fresh corpse that matches
the dummy would be good but involves the paramedics
nothing is not good because involves too many people
I give up for today
Post by: PureLove on November 26, 2011, 05:16:05 PM
Suzy7, I don't think you understood a word of what I said.
@PureLove, you have not given me one good reason why a corpse would be required. Like I said: if it is only for creating a scenario, a dummy could do the trick.
I've already given a very good reason Souza. And many things that supports the theory. You can not put a chest tube into a dummy. Just an example. I believe that I explained enough, so there is no need to keep on explaining why a corpse was more useful than a dummy.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 26, 2011, 05:17:03 PM
Where are you I'mconvinced?I have been here the whole time reading along. I took myself/theory out of this thread for a few reasons. I wanted to see how many people would defend the corpse theory and what they would use as evidence to back it up. For me, I am still convinced a corpse was used and I have provided alot of evidence (not opinion only) to back up my theory. I have repeated my theory in many threads and for the most part I didn't think many were backing me in my theories. I felt like I was just being a parrot so this time around I took myself and my theory out of the equation. I surely can't be the only one who is competent to write a coherent theory for the corpse being used.
My theory still stands in other threads as what I believe and maybe soon I may bring that info here if TS doesn't move on to 7c to quickly. ;)
I can back up NO corpse thoery: doctors, paramedics, bodyguards etc. WOULD NOT testify under penalty and perjury that they were trying to revive real Michael Jackson but they actually were working on somebody else's body. Simple as that.
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 26, 2011, 05:27:19 PM
Also, remember the reports about another person in the hospital named Soule Shawn. Joe said something that it was Soule Shawn or some one in the hospital. Also, there were reports from two hospitals that are not even too close to each other. There were reports from Mt. Sinai or somewhere as well as UCLA.
Maybe we have two deaths and one resurrection ? Maybe a corpse or a dummy and a faked death ? Maybe a hospice patient that died and a resurrection from Michael ?
Sorry to throw a wrench into this, but I'm thinking like Mimi. We have to think way outside the box during this time. There is the spiritual, paranormal side to this that people aren't thinking about. I didn't understand it either until I started reading. Read about ascension, ancient egyptian pharoahs, light bodies, etc. You'll see that there are possibilities in this world that we don't know about.
Remember Latoya saying there are two hands. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Two things going on at the same time. But there was also the illusion like a magic trick.
Peace and Love to all.
Post by: mimi248 on November 26, 2011, 05:28:23 PM
Beats me. Nothing seems to fit. None of the theories . I don't know how the hell he did it crash/ crash/ crash/.
Going to bed now, hoping that TS will post by tomorrow morning or I'll have a revealing dream /white flag/.
bearhug to Michael, wherever you are.
the corpse theory would be good but the main problem is how to get a fresh corpse that matches
the dummy would be good but involves the paramedics
nothing is not good because involves too many people
I give up for today
Also, did you notice that june 25 th 2009 is the ONLY DATE able to cut the hoax time in a perfection NUMEROLOGIE.
i'll explain
the 555days of the hoax is the first daythis yearJanuary 1st ( i'm sure but i think, the album Michael came out this day )
then, the 666 day of the hoax is the 21 april wich is the 111 day of this year. ( add 666+111= 777)
then the 777 days of te hoax is the August 10th wich is also the 222 day of this year (add 777+222=999
and to finish, on november 29 th, it wil be the 888 day of this hoax (symbolizing RESURECTION ) and also the 333 day of this year (symbolizing trinity) and then add you will be shocked. 888+333= 1221 !!!! THIS JUST BLOW MY MIND .
so, try with with any other dates, you will NEVER find a so perfect numerologie
only june 25th is able to pulling that of .
and don't forget that pepsy incident is exactly the middle of mj life day for day !!
So, is there a coincidence again ?i don't think so.
i try hard to find others theorie but the real resurection seem to fit perfectly , and i tell you, i'm scared . good night all. with love
Post by: fordtocarr on November 26, 2011, 05:28:46 PM
It's not real and it didn't happen. If it's for those who saw him...it's not real. He wasn't laying there dead, so they
already KNOW!!
Post by: PureLove on November 26, 2011, 05:33:38 PM
If I can recall, Kai said that Paris and Blanket were downstairs with her, praying with the other workers. And then her story changed to all three of them were in the hallway. I'm not saying that she's a 'major' part of it because maybe she had forgotten, but ... that was probably part of the stript.
What makes me think about Kai is, she says that she saw Murray in a panic, she called the security and Prince and then she went back to the kitchen to prepare lunch. In a panic moment like that, while it is so obvious that something's going on with Michael, how could you go back to the kitchen like nothing is happening and nothing is wrong? Isn't that weird? Yes, she has a job to do but that was a very unordinary situation but she just went back into the kitchen even before learning what's going on? Sounds very weird to me.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 26, 2011, 05:37:57 PM
If I can recall, Kai said that Paris and Blanket were downstairs with her, praying with the other workers. And then her story changed to all three of them were in the hallway. I'm not saying that she's a 'major' part of it because maybe she had forgotten, but ... that was probably part of the stript.
What makes me think about Kai is, she says that she saw Murray in a panic, she called the security and Prince and then she went back to the kitchen to prepare lunch. In a panic moment like that, while it is so obvious that something's going on with Michael, how could you go back to the kitchen like nothing is happening and nothing is wrong? Isn't that weird? Yes, she has a job to do but that was a very unordinary situation but she just went back into the kitchen even before learning what's going on? Sounds very weird to me.
IF you believe that even happened. IF you believe Murray did that, and ran for help, and Kai saw him...blah blah...yeah weird. Cuz, for whatever reasons, we can see those pieces of the puzzle don't fit. Every way we turn the puzzle pieces, they do not fit. The only thing that works is to say, that none of it was real. With that piece, ANYTHING will fit. The only piece left is to find out the WHY.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 26, 2011, 05:41:14 PM
Quote
IF you believe that even happened. IF you believe Murray did that, and ran for help,
Exactly. I said a few posts earlier why I start to believe it didn't even happen that Murray came downstairs screaming, risking to alert the housekeepers who didn't have to know a thing, risking them to react in the wrong way for the hoax? Of course am not sure but I think it is a possibility.
Post by: PureLove on November 26, 2011, 05:49:12 PM
QuoteIF you believe that even happened. IF you believe Murray did that, and ran for help,
Exactly. I said a few posts earlier why I start to believe it didn't even happen that Murray came downstairs screaming, risking to alert the housekeepers who didn't have to know a thing, risking them to react in the wrong way for the hoax? Of course am not sure but I think it is a possibility.
Actually I believe that Murray came downstairs to call for help. There were maids, probably nanny and the chef in the house and if they are not in on the hoax, the act had to be as real as it could be. It would be risky not to let them see and hear anything and then hear them speaking on the news, there was nothing wrong in the house that morning. Real witnesses who think the "death" is real was needed the most to give the whole act reality.
Post by: monstertooty on November 26, 2011, 06:47:39 PM
"I'm the light of the world, I feel grand." -This Is It
"I just want you to recognize me in the temple." -JAM
"You can change the world".... "I can't do it by myself." -Cry
"You rock my world ya know ya did, and everything I own I give."- You Rock My Word
"Things will go betta if you just..." - Hold My Hand
I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. All this time we have been asked to BELIEVE and told that it's all for LOVE(without the dots). I think "Michael" has been trying to tell us who his is for very long time.
TS quoted Jesus we he/she started 7b and I don't believe it was by accident. For me one song stands out among all others when i contemplate who "Michael" really is.
Pop stars don't write songs like this.....I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE......how bout you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUaMzwNPgro&NR=1
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 26, 2011, 07:09:41 PM
The paramedics report........now this is really weird. This has lots of strange information on it..
1. The rectangle from the start of the line is a sign of heart rate, pulse. ...still very high.
But suddenly, vital signs are lost and we get a straight line, suggesting ? last breath of the patient. Even so, the diagram shows that the patient was alive in the hands of paramedics.
- HR is heart rate. So the patient had pulse <70, which is normal.
- Michael was born in 29, not 28. And he called Michael, not Michael.
- At 11.51 (time on ECG), the ambulance did not even know that there was an emergency to attend 100N Carolwood Dr. and had made no call to confirm this, so it can not be the MJ's ECG at this address.
- A patient with 26 concentration in CO 2 is not in danger, for the simple reason that "The normal range is 20-29 mEq / L". www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003469.htm . So these figures presented are of a person still alive.
- Baking soda which is to increase the alkalinity is taken with utmost caution. Why? To that effect can be reversed, ie, to kill the patient, bicarbonate decomposes and releases just CO 2 . Fighting blood acidosis is only after patient recovery. "It has been shown that administration of sodium bicarbonate during RCR can be dangerous because tissue acidosis is caused mainly by decreased blood flow and the accumulation of CO 2 in tissues. The administration of sodium bicarbonate lead to a "paradoxical" worsening intracellular acidosis and brain by the cerebral accumulation and intracellular.. So why did paramedics administer it twice to the patient if stats suggest a normal cardiac rhythym.
- The patient came to UCLA in 13.07. Then, it is impossible for paramedics to do ECG to 13.13, when the patient was already admitted.
- I understand that paramedics are alowed to administer substances in IV infusions, do CPR and connect monitor devices. But why wasn't the patient defibrillated on scene or in transit???
BECAUSE THE PATIENT WAS EITHER NOT MJ.......or an ALIVE MJ !!
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 26, 2011, 07:24:51 PM
Beats me. Nothing seems to fit. None of the theories . I don't know how the hell he did it crash/ crash/ crash/.
Going to bed now, hoping that TS will post by tomorrow morning or I'll have a revealing dream /white flag/.
bearhug to Michael, wherever you are.
the corpse theory would be good but the main problem is how to get a fresh corpse that matches
the dummy would be good but involves the paramedics
nothing is not good because involves too many people
I give up for today
Also, did you notice that june 25 th 2009 is the ONLY DATE able to cut the hoax time in a perfection NUMEROLOGIE.
i'll explain
the 555days of the hoax is the first daythis yearJanuary 1st ( i'm sure but i think, the album Michael came out this day )
then, the 666 day of the hoax is the 21 april wich is the 111 day of this year. ( add 666+111= 777)
then the 777 days of te hoax is the August 10th wich is also the 222 day of this year (add 777+222=999
and to finish, on november 29 th, it wil be the 888 day of this hoax (symbolizing RESURECTION ) and also the 333 day of this year (symbolizing trinity) and then add you will be shocked. 888+333= 1221 !!!! THIS JUST BLOW MY MIND .
so, try with with any other dates, you will NEVER find a so perfect numerologie
only june 25th is able to pulling that of .
and don't forget that pepsy incident is exactly the middle of mj life day for day !!
So, is there a coincidence again ?i don't think so.
i try hard to find others theorie but the real resurection seem to fit perfectly , and i tell you, i'm scared . good night all. with love
@mimi, @applehead, @dontwalkaway and @Gina...I'm with you guys also! I Believe that in order to be thorough in our "investigating", we must look at ALL possible theories, even ones that may seem "Impossible", like 'Resurrection" and "Ascension", and when researching these subjects, it is impossible NOT to see the connections, to Michael! (in my opinion)
This whole "hoax" is all about "Perception". There are many ways to "perceive" the clues, but until you look WAY outside of the box, and study all the options, you will not be able to put all of the pieces to this "Puzzle" together.
The human Mind is a very powerful tool, as is the Heart, and Michael is a master of both. His Life and messages parallel that of Jesus. The "Signs" are everywhere in his Life's work, but for some reason, people just brush that off, as if it means nothing. It has been 2011 years since Jesus walked the Earth, and although people Believe that he is coming back one day to save the world, do they REALLY Believe that?? If they do, then what do people perceive the "second coming" to be? Is it really impossible to fathom that this is about to happen in OUR lifetime? Is it really impossible to Believe that Michael Jackson, a man who lived a life that was as close to "Jesus',then any other human being on this planet, could be the "man" who is coming back to save humanity before we destroy ourselves and our planet any further?? With 2012 fast approaching, can we just ignore all of the "prophecies" of the past or is it time to take a look back at Michael's Life and Messages, through "new" eyes,... with a totally different "perception"?
I in no way have ALL of the answers, but I do know what I am feeling and I know that my "perception" about EVERYTHING has changed since the beginning of this "adventure",and I can not and will not ever go back to my old way of thinking. I still strongly Believe that if you are still searching for "HOW" Michael pulled off this hoax, instead of "WHY" Michael did this, then I am afraid that you will be forever "chasing your tails", because no matter how hard you try to come up with the answers to "How", you will never know the "True Story", until Michael himself tells you? Everything is just an "assumption" until then. BUT, if you ask yourself "WHY" did Michael do this, you will find ALL of the answers you are looking for, and it will lead you on a path of LOVE and "Enlightenment" and HOPE for a better future for all of us!
No one can tell you what to BELIEVE, and I know that everyone has to follow their own path in life, but I just ask you all to PLEASE, just research the possibility of Michael being someone much more important to humanity, then just the "entertainer" of this Hoax, because there is so much more to "HIS- (s)tory".
It's all for L.O.V.E.
Thank you for listening, and please forgive me for being off topic.
I LOVE YOU all so very much! LIVE LOVE, BE LOVE...We are ONE!!
bearhug
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 26, 2011, 07:28:36 PM
"Nothing's real, but all is possible, if God is on my side."- Speechless
"I'm the light of the world, I feel grand." -This Is It
"I just want you to recognize me in the temple." -JAM
"You can change the world".... "I can't do it by myself." -Cry
"You rock my world ya know ya did, and everything I own I give."- You Rock My Word
"Things will go betta if you just..." - Hold My Hand
I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. All this time we have been asked to BELIEVE and told that it's all for LOVE(without the dots). I think "Michael" has been trying to tell us who his is for very long time.
TS quoted Jesus we he/she started 7b and I don't believe it was by accident. For me one song stands out among all others when i contemplate who "Michael" really is.
Pop stars don't write songs like this.....I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE......how bout you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUaMzwNPgro&NR=1
AMEN Tooty!! Sending you Blessings LOVE and LIGHT always!!!!
bearhug
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 26, 2011, 07:30:40 PM
The section of the report that puzzles me is the right column. This is where the paramedics write the case codes. Here are the sections and codes:
- Medical: CA.......Cancer
- Trauma: -
- Mechanism: -
- LOS (Level Of Severity): It (severe, life-threatening HAD The Patient Signs and Symptoms or I)
- GCS (Glasgow Coma Scale): 3
- RTS (Revised Trauma Score) -
- EYE: FD (Fixed & Dilated) (does not specify color)
- Resp: AP (Apnea: The absence of spontaneous respirations or When documenting the dead body)
- Skins: PA (abnormally pale, Ashen, or gray)
- Air / Arrest / place (Altered Level of Consciousness) / Other: GO, GM, EK (electrocardiogram), IV (intravenous), ME, CP ( Chest Pain ).
I'm not sure the GO and GM, however, there are letters, not on the list of these abbreviations.
But I wonder since when did Michael have cancer?
There's chest pain (heart simprome), if the patient is unconscious how would they know that?
Cardiac Arrest, but paramedics manual is code for cancer and cardiac arrest just not there, but there is a wide range of attacks, more specifically called for in the cardio-pulmonary or cerebral infarctionat .
To cut off the leading zero in the report (the pulse), we have the following translation: unchanged. This should be a " forced pulse."
: NUPU, which does not appear anywhere in the report.
I can not understand, how this was completed by the paramedic.
These are the results: emergency....a patient suffering from cancer, with fixed pupils, no breathing, unconscious, but complaining of chest pain.
And the report still has puzzles!
Murray's medical license number is the G7 in 1169, and the report is G0 1168.
I found some names of paramedics. One of them is known.
Here is a database of California paramedics. www.centralregistry.ca.gov . Let's see who are the three musketeers.
EMT32907: Randall A. Johnson . Renewed license for the New Year in 2009. There are 22 people with that name in California. None in LA. Probably living in satellite towns. In Long Beach, where he received the license, do not stay any RAJ today, but once formed an R Allen J, who is now 59 years. I say we cut it from the list, it can not be our paramedic. So, E032907 took license in Long Beach, lives in city X and works in LA. A commuter hell!
EMT33663: Erik. A. Lee . It has the oldest license from 9/18/2008. The name is so common that it's difficult to appreciate our man.
EMT51210: Chad B Brazee , only one in California. Stay in Irvine, has licensed from Ventura and working in LA. Is 27 years old, graduated from Santa Margarita Catholic High School in 2001. The odd thing is that this boy has got license in April 2010. But I guess he renewed it. EMT51210 true whether he finished with ambulances and Brazee has inherited ID. After resonance name is only likely to be black girls posing in LA
Post by: luvandmissumike on November 26, 2011, 07:31:50 PM
Post by: scorpionchik on November 26, 2011, 07:53:45 PM
@ SCORPIONCHIK- u said, "MJ production could include in role everybody but court, attorneys and authorities. Enough." there have been doubts about the seal in the court that was shown during breaks. is it the actual seal, there were 1 to many or 1 less (can't remember) stars. if the seal is not real then i would assume the court room and the proceedings are also fake, including judge, attorney, authorities & witnesses. and why do we have to answer these same verification questions every time ??
The seal is real, it's just a mistake/omission. You can't say Michael Pastor is not real or was playing one of the leading roles of MJ Production "Hoax" movie, and juries were in secondary roles, attornyes are in back up roles, etc. Jacksons were in Michael protective role, I can understand that.
Enough of fairy tale or making joke of American legal system. It is NOT perfect, nowhere it is perfect, but it is not a part of a comedy/thriller of MJ .No matter how much I love and adore Michael, I can't beilieve in that crap. Michael's hoax does not include court. Michael escaped for serious reason and Murray is charged for what he has done, not accurately because he was trying to kill Michael, but the trial is real; incomplete, but real. I WISH I AM 100% WRONG! Will see.
Post by: mikeyslittlehoaxer on November 26, 2011, 08:00:16 PM
Post by: fordtocarr on November 26, 2011, 08:06:24 PM
Beats me. Nothing seems to fit. None of the theories . I don't know how the hell he did it crash/ crash/ crash/.
Going to bed now, hoping that TS will post by tomorrow morning or I'll have a revealing dream /white flag/.
bearhug to Michael, wherever you are.
the corpse theory would be good but the main problem is how to get a fresh corpse that matches
the dummy would be good but involves the paramedics
nothing is not good because involves too many people
I give up for today
Also, did you notice that june 25 th 2009 is the ONLY DATE able to cut the hoax time in a perfection NUMEROLOGIE.
i'll explain
the 555days of the hoax is the first daythis yearJanuary 1st ( i'm sure but i think, the album Michael came out this day )
then, the 666 day of the hoax is the 21 april wich is the 111 day of this year. ( add 666+111= 777)
then the 777 days of te hoax is the August 10th wich is also the 222 day of this year (add 777+222=999
and to finish, on november 29 th, it wil be the 888 day of this hoax (symbolizing RESURECTION ) and also the 333 day of this year (symbolizing trinity) and then add you will be shocked. 888+333= 1221 !!!! THIS JUST BLOW MY MIND .
so, try with with any other dates, you will NEVER find a so perfect numerologie
only june 25th is able to pulling that of .
and don't forget that pepsy incident is exactly the middle of mj life day for day !!
So, is there a coincidence again ?i don't think so.
i try hard to find others theorie but the real resurection seem to fit perfectly , and i tell you, i'm scared . good night all. with love
Just wondering, WHY does the number 888 MEAN resurrection???? Who says it does??? If I search the meaning of numbers, the number 888 will say resurrection????
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 26, 2011, 08:15:05 PM
Beats me. Nothing seems to fit. None of the theories . I don't know how the hell he did it crash/ crash/ crash/.
Going to bed now, hoping that TS will post by tomorrow morning or I'll have a revealing dream /white flag/.
bearhug to Michael, wherever you are.
the corpse theory would be good but the main problem is how to get a fresh corpse that matches
the dummy would be good but involves the paramedics
nothing is not good because involves too many people
I give up for today
Also, did you notice that june 25 th 2009 is the ONLY DATE able to cut the hoax time in a perfection NUMEROLOGIE.
i'll explain
the 555days of the hoax is the first daythis yearJanuary 1st ( i'm sure but i think, the album Michael came out this day )
then, the 666 day of the hoax is the 21 april wich is the 111 day of this year. ( add 666+111= 777)
then the 777 days of te hoax is the August 10th wich is also the 222 day of this year (add 777+222=999
and to finish, on november 29 th, it wil be the 888 day of this hoax (symbolizing RESURECTION ) and also the 333 day of this year (symbolizing trinity) and then add you will be shocked. 888+333= 1221 !!!! THIS JUST BLOW MY MIND .
so, try with with any other dates, you will NEVER find a so perfect numerologie
only june 25th is able to pulling that of .
and don't forget that pepsy incident is exactly the middle of mj life day for day !!
So, is there a coincidence again ?i don't think so.
i try hard to find others theorie but the real resurection seem to fit perfectly , and i tell you, i'm scared . good night all. with love
Just wondering, WHY does the number 888 MEAN resurrection???? Who says it does??? If I search the meaning of numbers, the number 888 will say resurrection????
Hopefully this website will help you: http://www.taratarot.com/id42.html
"Number 8 turned horizontally on it’s side symbolizes Infinity ∞, Endless Life. It means all time,past,present and future, centred in the present moment of NOW. On the Highest Spiritual level all time is NOW. Everything that ever happened is occurring NOW and everything that ever will happen is happening NOW. We create our present from our past and our future from our present. It is Karma. So 888 is a Triply Karmic Day. Karmic to the third Power. This is a very powerful occurance......888, the number of the Holy Spirit , an endless cord, the ourobouros serpent eating it’s tail. The Infinity symbol appears in a number of traditional Tarot Trumps, the Magician # 1, and # 8 Strength/Justice." (theres a lot more on the website)
Post by: mikeyslittlehoaxer on November 26, 2011, 08:18:25 PM
Post by: bec on November 26, 2011, 08:20:34 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 26, 2011, 08:39:31 PM
MJFAN7 you believe this stuff too?! (MJ being a archangel)
Many people on this forum believe that there is MUCH more to Mike than 'meets the eye'. Even prior to June 25th, many felt that Mike was special and those who never looked deep enough prior to his 'death', for whatever reason, soon came to 'feel' it as they kept learning more about 'the man' and who he always was all along (right before our eyes).
There are many threads on this very board that delve into theories that many would say extend way outta the box (i.e. Souza had started a whole thread and called it something like 'thinking wayyyyy outta the box' lol....I can't remember the exact title of it and I couldn't find it just now). Unfortunately, not many people participated or shared their thoughts in that thread or others dealing with possible 'religious' and/or spiritual connections between Mike and the reasons (the WHY) of the hoax. For those interested in those theories, there are plenty of great posts by members who felt comfortable enough to share their thoughts.
While I definitely think it's extremely important to understand the WHY of the hoax (and many of us have attempted just that in other threads/other topics)...IF you believe that TS is here with us on Mike's behalf, then HE feels it important enough for us to understand the HOW's as well. I don't think engaging in the 'hows' detracts from the message or the 'why' of the hoax...but rather, as TS pointed out, understanding the hows will make the 'why' that much more solid within our own minds. Not everyone 'works' this way and for some maybe the 'hows' aren't important to them and that's ok too...to each their own.
TS started this thread for those that DO want to pursue/understand the hows and that's all we're trying to do here.
With L.O.V.E. always.
P.S. Sorry for being off-topic about an off-topic topic :?
Post by: paula-c on November 26, 2011, 08:43:39 PM
The autopsy report of the dental work in the body differs from that MJ was found to dental records and the autopsy showed that the patient has no signs of fracture althiugh know MJ's leg was injured years ago. In the body of the autopsy no signs of any type of surgical work in the nose of the body, or scarring of the incident of Pepsi, which is what I think the body in the ambulance? Really could be anyone or no one, not to mislead anyone that the two doctors of the hospital and the coroner know everything. I do not even have to look like MJ. A patient who died in a hospice or someone who died in the hospital.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 26, 2011, 08:44:30 PM
Now to the task at hand.??
We need to stick to the factual, which is not easy....The paramedics reports is fake, and stands no legal ground in the court of law...wrong date of birth, wrong spelling of name.....they also claim Murray was in total control of the situation and they had to follow his instructions and thats why no debribrillation was performed at the home or in the ambulance.........
MY THEORY IS " what is the common bond that ties all these professional people involved in the hoax"
WHY WOULD THEY ALL AGREE TO HELP MJ?? What would be so important to all of them that they would agree to go along with it???
What has affected Americans so badly, that these credible professional people would go along with it?? How would it benefit them too when bam day comes?????
Who has ordered them to go along with it?? Which higher authorites could have that amount of power???
Well, first answer........9/11 terrorist attacks affected all of these people.
MJ should have been dead that day too.
Can you think of anything else...London bombings in England....Hmmmm on the 7.7
Government and secret services would have enough power over these people, as they are all helping to expose something..
OR Michael is really dead, or
Needed a lung transplant, and a donor lung became available that day, and he was taken into UCLA for the transplant........
I love you all and God bless bearhug
ONLY Michael knows.......... /judge/ /judge/ /judge/ /judge/
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 26, 2011, 08:47:42 PM
MJFAN7 you believe this stuff too?! (MJ being a archangel)
I don't know how I feel about that. I think it's quite obvious that God plays a big part in Michael's life. Why do you think Michael didn't feel like going to the meeting at the top of the world trade center on 9/11?
Post by: mikeyslittlehoaxer on November 26, 2011, 08:56:14 PM
Post by: bec on November 26, 2011, 09:02:22 PM
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 26, 2011, 09:02:54 PM
In a interview Michael said that he was at a hotel or something and heard the news aboout 911 and got everyone (the kids and stuff) and they went away to I guess another part of NY, he didn't say. He didn't go to a meeting or anything. I'm not sure what interview he said though.
Jermaine's book said Michael had appointments at the top of the world trade center on 9/11, and he overslept or didn't feel like it, one of those.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 26, 2011, 09:03:29 PM
Geez, what's happening here? Hasn't all this stuff all been brought up before?? We went sooo deep into this before, and now the possiblility is again surfacing?? "Visions from Michael thread" was a very long one, with many people seeing visions from MJ that suggested he could be on the other side, and will ressurect"
Seems like whenever we get stuck or bored we tend to either rehash topics or come up with outrageous ones.. (not saying these ARE now)
Now to the task at hand.??
We need to stick to the factual, which is not easy....The paramedics reports is fake, and stands no legal ground in the court of law...wrong date of birth, wrong spelling of name.....they also claim Murray was in total control of the situation and they had to follow his instructions and thats why no debribrillation was performed at the home or in the ambulance.........
MY THEORY IS " what is the common bond that ties all these professional people involved in the hoax"
WHY WOULD THEY ALL AGREE TO HELP MJ?? What would be so important to all of them that they would agree to go along with it???
What has affected Americans so badly, that these credible professional people would go along with it?? How would it benefit them too when bam day comes?????
Who has ordered them to go along with it?? Which higher authorites could have that amount of power???
Well, first answer........9/11 terrorist attacks affected all of these people.
MJ should have been dead that day too.
Can you think of anything else...London bombings in England....Hmmmm on the 7.7
Government and secret services would have enough power over these people, as they are all helping to expose something..
OR Michael is really dead, or
Needed a lung transplant, and a donor lung became available that day, and he was taken into UCLA for the transplant........
I love you all and God bless bearhug
ONLY Michael knows.......... /judge/ /judge/ /judge/ /judge/
Great questions to ponder!!!
To tell you the truth, if it's simply a movie, which it's probably not, then wondering about all these things all these years wouldn't matter anyhow, or the court or anything. But, if Michael has a message, a reason, or a sting is going on for a reason, then we'll know one day. I've wondered lately if all these celebs jumping on the media and paparazzi's (especially in England) is a reason this is going on. With the things Arnie talks about, nothing being private, and personal info getting stolen and released, just like the other celebs are saying now, I wonder if this is about what the media did to Michael.
Anyhow, maybe at this point of the game, we are just to know the details of how, as is who went to the hosp...(to me if we would believe in a resurrection, we'd have to believe he's dead)and wait for the why's when it's the right time for that!
Post by: fordtocarr on November 26, 2011, 09:05:50 PM
Because... it's a movie? All these entities are available for assistance in Hollywood Productions; LAPD, LAFD, Paramedics, UCLA... shoot, the Coroner said a movie prop company has a van that looks just like theirs. The FBI even has an entertainment division. And they do movies in real court rooms and hospitals all the time.Dang Bec...I didn't know THAT!!! My heart has always believed this is simply a movie and I try to convince it otherwise. Then you write that and it makes it easier for me to follow my heart ;)
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 26, 2011, 09:10:07 PM
Was Michael Jackson the Archangel?
Written by Dr. Firpo W. Carr, (Columnist), on 11-19-2009 00:00
To millions of fans spanning the globe Michael Joseph Jackson was angelic. The biblical word "angel" simply means "messenger of God." And if ever God sent a messenger in recent times, loyal fans believe Michael Jackson to be that man. Some feel that among other caring, angelic persons in our lifetime (like Mother Theresa, or lesser known persons from other cultures), Michael stands out as an archangel. This is partly attributable to the sheer magnitude of his influence. Indeed, fans insist he was the principle one or chief (hence "arch-") among those considered to be angelic. In fact, it has been stated that a man's greatness can be measured by that which he has left others to contemplate. By this dictum, Michael Jackson was indeed a great man; an incredibly wonderful human being who reflected the godly qualities of love and generosity on a grand scale. In fact, his very name, "Michael," means, "Who is like God?" But, there is another historical "Michael" who is far more famous than Michael Jackson. Some have even confused the two. Who might this other Michael be?
You can read more here....very interesting if I say so myself...
http://www.lasentinel.net/Was-Michael-Jackson-the-Archangel.html
Post by: bec on November 26, 2011, 09:21:40 PM
I know I know I'm sorry. If I was feeling smarter tonight I'd put up a better argument. But then I'm not sure it would make a difference anyway.
When you're watching a good movie it seems very real. That's usually one of the criteria of a good movie actually.
Post by: mikeyslittlehoaxer on November 26, 2011, 09:32:34 PM
Post by: monstertooty on November 26, 2011, 09:47:37 PM
Wanna be startin somethin was the beginning. Michael seemed to become more pissed off with each new album. What is so amazing is the he managed to hold true to his message of LOVE the entire time.
Consider the lyrics of BAD...Threatened.... etc etc.
TS made us aware that we may want to think of Michael in a new light in order to find answers. I can see where he/she is coming from for sure. Haters hate because they think they know him and fans love him for the same reason.....ironic isn't it. He didn't say "and the whole world has to answer right now cuz I tell you once again...who's BAD." for nothing, he meant it.
Anyway, I am going with the dummy theory and backing it with "Annie are you okay" and TS suggesting we reconsider who we are dealing with.......... /cook/
Post by: bec on November 26, 2011, 10:05:48 PM
Anyone who wants to discuss the theory that MJ really did die and was resurrected because he is the second coming of christ or an angel, there's a thread for that... but you're off topic here. From now on those posts will be deleted off this thread. Ok? Fair warning.
Post by: Grace on November 26, 2011, 10:10:08 PM
Don't know if this has already been tossed in the ring as an idea, but MJ reportedly went back and forth to Klein's office in May 2009. Could have been that half the time that "MJ" was actually a hospice patient receiving plastic surgery to look like MJ. Just a thought.
Did anybody else check the building?
MJ was filmed at a backdoor in the neighbourhood which does NOT belong to Klein's address.
It is a red brick building, right? If I recall right, it is the same narrow back street where a mirror was broken off an ambulance by MJ's SUV in May 2009. Check it out.
There are several docs in the house that Klein has his suite in, e.g. a dentist.
There's an agency for unknown stars, too.
So whom did MJ see in that building?
If we can't boil it down to facts, we have to take it as speculation and distraction attempt.
MJ coming out of a backdoor and a press agency (or spokesperson) making it a visit at Dr. Klein does NOT mean he visited him. MJ would never tell where he was, wouldn't he? Except, except what he wanted the public to believe...
Post by: mikeyslittlehoaxer on November 26, 2011, 10:12:35 PM
By popular demand:
Anyone who wants to discuss the theory that MJ really did die and was resurrected because he is the second coming of christ or an angel, there's a thread for that... but you're off topic here. From now on those posts will be deleted off this thread. Ok? Fair warning.
Thank you bec! They were depressing and confusing me
Post by: BeTheChange on November 26, 2011, 10:32:48 PM
For those interested, I did find and bump the thread that I mentioned in my previous post (the one Souza started EOW/Biblical theories).
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 26, 2011, 10:38:33 PM
Don't know if this has already been tossed in the ring as an idea, but MJ reportedly went back and forth to Klein's office in May 2009. Could have been that half the time that "MJ" was actually a hospice patient receiving plastic surgery to look like MJ. Just a thought.
Did anybody else check the building?
MJ was filmed at a backdoor in the neighbourhood which does NOT belong to Klein's address.
It is a red brick building, right? If I recall right, it is the same narrow back street where a mirror was broken off an ambulance by MJ's SUV in May 2009. Check it out.
There are several docs in the house that Klein has his suite in, e.g. a dentist.
There's an agency for unknown stars, too.
So whom did MJ see in that building?
If we can't boil it down to facts, we have to take it as speculation and distraction attempt.
MJ coming out of a backdoor and a press agency (or spokesperson) making it a visit at Dr. Klein does NOT mean he visited him. MJ would never tell where he was, wouldn't he? Except, except what he wanted the public to believe...
Oh yeah that's a good tie in. In that photo series (by TMZ of course) there's a pic of that ambulance parked next to a garbage dumpster. I laughed when I randomly scrolled through it.
Post by: Starchild on November 26, 2011, 11:53:35 PM
Don't know if this has already been tossed in the ring as an idea, but MJ reportedly went back and forth to Klein's office in May 2009. Could have been that half the time that "MJ" was actually a hospice patient receiving plastic surgery to look like MJ. Just a thought.
Did anybody else check the building?
MJ was filmed at a backdoor in the neighbourhood which does NOT belong to Klein's address.
It is a red brick building, right? If I recall right, it is the same narrow back street where a mirror was broken off an ambulance by MJ's SUV in May 2009. Check it out.
There are several docs in the house that Klein has his suite in, e.g. a dentist.
There's an agency for unknown stars, too.
So whom did MJ see in that building?
If we can't boil it down to facts, we have to take it as speculation and distraction attempt.
MJ coming out of a backdoor and a press agency (or spokesperson) making it a visit at Dr. Klein does NOT mean he visited him. MJ would never tell where he was, wouldn't he? Except, except what he wanted the public to believe...
Excellent points, Grace. However, the primary area of speculation that I was getting at in quotation of BeTheChange’s post (see the relevant portion below) regards the possibility of a hospice patient, perhaps an MJ look-alike, receiving plastic surgery in the spring of 2009 (and/or before) to look more like MJ in the event there was a necessity for anyone to be “fooled into thinking Mike had really died”:
The only NEED would arise if any of the above had to be 'fooled' into thinking Mike had really died or was in the process of dying. But even then, these are all people that spent a lot of time with MJ....whether they were presented with a dummy or a real corpse, would they not notice that something wasn't right? I mean someone you see every single day (like a parent or sibling...would you not notice if they were replaced with a dummy or some other corpse??). I guess the argument could be made that the dummy was so life-like and MJ looking that they were fooled...but I'm not sure about that.
Thinking along those lines, I tend to believe that those who saw the body were in on it because if they weren't, they would've noticed that it was not MJ laying there (regardless of whether or not it was a dummy or some other corpse). IF any of them were targets of a sting and therefore needed to be 'fooled', then the most logical solution to that IMO would be a live MJ playing the part himself (i.e. it would be the most realistic and believable scenario). BUT, then the paramedics most definitely would have to be in on it since CPR and medications given would be dangerous to a live and healthy MJ.
Just another possible scenario among many to think about.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 27, 2011, 12:47:23 AM
Found this video with Ed Winter leaving Dr Kleins building...watch the reaction we get when he is asked "What's your favourite MJ song ?? He starts to laugh and says "All of them "" We have ourselves another huge MJ fan....
http://www.zimbio.com/watch/E9kcvuy0p8L/HTV+Ed+Winter+Leaves+Dr+Arnold+Klein+Beverly/Michael+Jackson
Post by: julia142 on November 27, 2011, 01:38:52 AM
Beats me. Nothing seems to fit. None of the theories . I don't know how the hell he did it crash/ crash/ crash/.
Going to bed now, hoping that TS will post by tomorrow morning or I'll have a revealing dream /white flag/.
bearhug to Michael, wherever you are.
the corpse theory would be good but the main problem is how to get a fresh corpse that matches
the dummy would be good but involves the paramedics
nothing is not good because involves too many people
I give up for today
Also, did you notice that june 25 th 2009 is the ONLY DATE able to cut the hoax time in a perfection NUMEROLOGIE.
i'll explain
the 555days of the hoax is the first daythis yearJanuary 1st ( i'm sure but i think, the album Michael came out this day )
then, the 666 day of the hoax is the 21 april wich is the 111 day of this year. ( add 666+111= 777)
then the 777 days of te hoax is the August 10th wich is also the 222 day of this year (add 777+222=999
and to finish, on november 29 th, it wil be the 888 day of this hoax (symbolizing RESURECTION ) and also the 333 day of this year (symbolizing trinity) and then add you will be shocked. 888+333= 1221 !!!! THIS JUST BLOW MY MIND .
so, try with with any other dates, you will NEVER find a so perfect numerologie
only june 25th is able to pulling that of .
and don't forget that pepsy incident is exactly the middle of mj life day for day !!
So, is there a coincidence again ?i don't think so.
i try hard to find others theorie but the real resurection seem to fit perfectly , and i tell you, i'm scared . good night all. with love
OH MY GOD! I think you are up to something quite interresting!!!! Cause if we add up the 888 + 333=1221 days of june 25th 2009 and if we add 1221 days to june 25th, do you know which date we com up with???
October 28th 2012! 3 years or 4 years reckoning the movie This is it!!!! (And 1221 relating also to the famous call of 911) ! That would be a great birthday gift for me, my birthday is on oct 27th! :)
Here is the proof: http://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadded.html?d1=25&m1=06&y1=2009&type=add&ay=&am=&ad=1221&aw=
It can't be a coincidence!!!!! :)))
Post by: applehead250609 on November 27, 2011, 03:52:39 AM
In a interview Michael said that he was at a hotel or something and heard the news aboout 911 and got everyone (the kids and stuff) and they went away to I guess another part of NY, he didn't say. He didn't go to a meeting or anything. I'm not sure what interview he said though.
Jermaine's book said Michael had appointments at the top of the world trade center on 9/11, and he overslept or didn't feel like it, one of those.
Yes MJFAN7 and how about the Nasdaq Press Release :? ???? If I'm not mistaken this Presss release was with 11 days before the 9/11 attacks. Then Michael had 43 years old and on the CNN screen is written HE'S BACK,HE'S BAD :shock: !!!!
Latoya and Frank Cascio also wrote about 9/11 in their books :shock: !!! WHY do they brings this horrible attacks in their books ,related to Mj,this is what I don't understand and it really disturbs me :? .
Michael Jackson Opens NASDAQ 2001
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FMzTw0C94M[/youtube]
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 03:53:18 AM
"Nothing's real, but all is possible, if God is on my side."- SpeechlessI'm not saying it is not possible.
"I'm the light of the world, I feel grand." -This Is It
"I just want you to recognize me in the temple." -JAM
"You can change the world".... "I can't do it by myself." -Cry
"You rock my world ya know ya did, and everything I own I give."- You Rock My Word
"Things will go betta if you just..." - Hold My Hand
I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. All this time we have been asked to BELIEVE and told that it's all for LOVE(without the dots). I think "Michael" has been trying to tell us who his is for very long time.
TS quoted Jesus we he/she started 7b and I don't believe it was by accident. For me one song stands out among all others when i contemplate who "Michael" really is.
Pop stars don't write songs like this.....I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE......how bout you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUaMzwNPgro&NR=1
Why not now??
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 04:04:49 AM
Quote
WHY WOULD THEY ALL AGREE TO HELP MJ?? What would be so important to all of them that they would agree to go along with it???
Is it possible that they were all victims of some mass hypnosis, making them believe they saw MJ dead on June 25th :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:???
errrr errrr errrr errrr moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 27, 2011, 04:38:15 AM
QuoteWHY WOULD THEY ALL AGREE TO HELP MJ?? What would be so important to all of them that they would agree to go along with it???
Is it possible that they were all victims of some mass hypnosis, making them believe they saw MJ dead on June 25th :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:???
errrr errrr errrr errrr moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/ moonwalk_/
That's a thought.....or maybe they were all given a glass of MILK that day, with a shot of demerol in it, and what they think they saw, was just an illusion or their imagination.....lol.. Love ya.
Post by: MJonmind on November 27, 2011, 05:10:37 AM
monstertooty, good points in favor of a dummy, of "Annie are you okay" in Smooth Criminal coupled with the "Dr, Murray-sessitation",
Ginafelicia
Is it possible that they were all victims of some mass hypnosis, making them believe they saw MJ dead on June 25th ???
Quote
You think you’re by yourself, but it’s my touch you feltI’m not a ghost from Hell, but I’ve got a SPELL on youYour worst nightmare, it's me, I'm everywhereIn one blink I’ll disappear, and then I’ll come back to haunt youI’m telling you, when you lie under a tombI’m the one watching youThat’s why you got to be threatened by me
I can say I personally am happily under his spell since June 25/09.
/cook/ geek/ :) :-*
Just some more TS posts that indicate Michael is doing this hoax by remote control. One problem I have is that he wanted and totally planned on having children of his own WHEN he had them, his children brought him immense joy. So why would he plan the hoax in advance, knowing that Blanket especially was still a child who really needed his Daddy. MJ moving to hide in another country for up to 3 years is almost abondonment, even if he is talking on the phone occasionally, or sending emails, skype, etc. We don't know how much risk he is able to take to communicate with them. Yet we know they are seeming to be happy. Therefore I'm thinking that he was led by God to do this for the planet. Hopefully with the Bam before Jan 1, 2013, he will be reunited with his kids before they forget him as a big part of their lives.
TS puts such a strong emphasis on very FEW people in on the hoax below, even some of the Jackson family, which I think reflects on who or what went in the ambulance on the 25th.
Remember the dummies can be so very realistic nowadays, perhaps cost millions, but that's okay. Watch at :30.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74HR-Za7z4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74HR-Za7z4)
I think the medic who intubated it would have to be in on the hoax, but perhaps not the others. I think only Alverez needs to be in from the body guards. Perhaps only Jermaine and LaToya are in for the family, not Katherine or Joe or the rest. I've said before that Prince and Paris were probably told the day before or so, and much later they told Blanket.
Quote
6. Katherine and RandySpeaking of the murder theory: many people have had their faith shaken lately—especially with Katherine crying in the Oprah interview, as well as some tweets from Randy. But again, if people would take the Elvis connection seriously: they would understand a lot more, and it would be much easier to “keep the faith”.If you read the book by Elvis/Jesse (and Dr. Hinton), The Truth About Elvis Aron Presley In His Own Words (which I will abbreviate as TTAEAP): you will find repeated similar statements, such as this one—which is right up front in the introduction. “So many people have written or spoke about my death as a hoax. It was not a hoax! ... Elvis Presley did die that day.” The physical body lived on, yes; but the performer, the King of Rock, ceased to exist on 8-16-1977.With MJ: his enemies really did kill the reputation, the image, the performer, the King of Pop—Michael Joseph Jackson. Therefore, the statements and emotions of the family are real—even though it is metaphorical murder, and not literal. Even the Bible uses death and murder in a metaphorical sense: “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer ...” (1 John 3:15; see Luke 9:60; etc).Katherine was crying on the Oprah interview; and it was real emotions and real tears, not just acting. She also said on that same interview, in the context of molestation charges and not the context of 6-25-2009: “I can’t talk about anything without crying ...” {4:31, http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o)}.Also her biggest grief on June 25 was not when Murray told her that MJ was “gone” (to the airport). Instead, her major grief was when she had to take the children home with her; because at that point, MJ really was “gone”—and the children would not then be living with him or seeing him regularly {10:21, http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o)}.But if any still have difficulty with the emotions and statements of Katherine and/or Randy, you might want to consider that maybe some of the family members are not in on the hoax. I’m not saying that this is the actual case; but if it’s easier for you, this is yet another example where the Elvis connection could help.“One fact that most people would think is that my Daddy [Vernon] must have known, well he didn’t. We were planning on telling him when he passed away without ever knowing.” (TTAEAP 28). “My own Daddy bless his soul never knew the truth. Little Lisa was told months later and explained to her she would not see me much. ... I feel bad my Daddy wasn’t allowed to know but it just couldn’t be done.” (TTAEAP 32,33). “Also let me tell you that my Daddy did not know of this hoax if they want to call it that. If he had not died suddenly, we would have told him. ... To this day I feel terrible about this. But he had to be eliminated from the beginning. He was to be told after 3 years but as you know he passed 6 months too early.” (TTAEAP 56).- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7. Bahrain And MichaelOne of the redirects included this statement: “It’s quite reasonable to think that one of the places MJ’s been hiding out in is Bahrain.” {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15880#p268640 (http://http//michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15880#p268640)}. Several questioned why I would redirect to this, and put MJ at risk.First, let me repeat what I have said before: just because I redirect to something, it does not mean that I agree with every single word on the comment or webpage that is redirected; instead, look for the main points being said, not necessarily every detail. In this case, however, I did make sure to redirect to a post which had a very important detail in it: “ONE of the places MJ’s been hiding”.Second, Bahrain could be a decoy. Third, whether or not it’s a decoy: TS is certainly not the only one who has given the Bahrain clue. It was also on the Jackson Reality Show, on the recent Oprah interview, and on TMZ. “Bahrain Company Didn’t Get Memo On MJ’s Death” {http://http://www.tmz.com/2010/11/19/michael-jackson-estate-creditors-claim-estate-bahrain-company-loan/ (http://http//www.tmz.com/2010/11/19/michael-jackson-estate-creditors-claim-estate-bahrain-company-loan/)}. As many noticed, this title had nothing to do with the article; the title was a clue that Bahrain didn’t know about MJ’s death, because they did know that he is not dead!Elvis/Jesse has also listed several of his past hiding places—including Apopka, Florida; Tenino, Washington; and Hawaii, which is a paradise island (TTAEAP 28,38,40,48). Many rumors have circulated for years about Elvis living on some “paradise island”; well, he actually did! And of course, Bahrain is also a paradise island.
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 27, 2011, 05:27:26 AM
"Nothing's real, but all is possible, if God is on my side."- Speechless
"I'm the light of the world, I feel grand." -This Is It
"I just want you to recognize me in the temple." -JAM
"You can change the world".... "I can't do it by myself." -Cry
"You rock my world ya know ya did, and everything I own I give."- You Rock My Word
"Things will go betta if you just..." - Hold My Hand
I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. All this time we have been asked to BELIEVE and told that it's all for LOVE(without the dots). I think "Michael" has been trying to tell us who his is for very long time.
TS quoted Jesus we he/she started 7b and I don't believe it was by accident. For me one song stands out among all others when i contemplate who "Michael" really is.
Pop stars don't write songs like this.....I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE......how bout you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUaMzwNPgro&NR=1
:shock:
I thought it was just me thinking like that, especially the song "Will you be there" it gives me chills (in a good way) each time I listen to it.
With patience, I guess we will find out one way or the other, but I know what I BELIEVE too.
LOVE and blessings
bearhug
Post by: diggyon on November 27, 2011, 06:32:06 AM
Remember when the Mind Control program was discussed here in this forum? We learned that the visctims who are under this kind of program are also under a certain madication that makes them see things that are not real or imagine things that didn't happen. So what if the paramedics were also under such program, or were given some sort of medication to imagine that the body they are seeing is MJ's body while in fact it is a body of someone else. So either they were mind controlled or they were given some medicine for that day especially... hmmm... what do you think guys???????????????
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 07:25:16 AM
Okay guys, I have a theory here, but I am not sure about it!!! Anyway....
Remember when the Mind Control program was discussed here in this forum? We learned that the visctims who are under this kind of program are also under a certain madication that makes them see things that are not real or imagine things that didn't happen. So what if the paramedics were also under such program, or were given some sort of medication to imagine that the body they are seeing is MJ's body while in fact it is a body of someone else. So either they were mind controlled or they were given some medicine for that day especially... hmmm... what do you think guys???????????????
I was kindda joking but who knows...thinking of the illusionists he had as friends all his life....why not :shock: :shock:?
OK, As I felt highly frustrated for not being able to figure out how MJ did it, I convoked a brainstorming in my living room with my husband and my son, I told them the events of 25th as I now them, asking them under the hypothesis Michael is alive, what is their opinion about our theories.
My husband said MJ paid them all (paramedics to coroner) and it's all a movie, without me suggesting him this version. So he thinks it was either a dummy or nothing. But how can I trust his opinion, he also believes Michael puts on his nose every morning and sends out his doubles to play crippled and fool people.
He also raised some concerns about what authority has the security chief to send the employees home. He asked me "Is it written in his contract with Michael that he can do this by himself? "
I obviously couldn't answer his question but he got me thinking with who's authority were the employees sent home. Who's call is this?
He also asked me why there was a need for the body to be transported with the helicopter at the coroner, he suspects it is just part of the show and not real. He also asked where was the body during the time between the announced death and the helicopter moment and why they couldn't perform the autopsy at UCLA, UCLA doesn't have a morgue and can't perform autopsy?
Anyway, he told me now that after he heard some events from June 25th that he didn't know before he believes Michael could have had his death faked. But I told him what about the family reactions?...and he said they act.
I told him also about the messages Michael supposedly wants to convey but he said how is he going to convey it when there are only a few people here who know these things?
Oh he also believes paramedic Blount lied he recognized MJ because he says it would be more possible MJ to not be recognized without the makeup, wig and the stuff he puts on when he goes in public.
Post by: diggyon on November 27, 2011, 07:37:26 AM
I know it's really hard to figure out how MJ faked his death. We are all coming up with theories, but not all of the are correct. Untill now we didn't get any clue yet. So TS.......Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllppppppppppppp
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 27, 2011, 08:14:39 AM
So until someone can provide a plausible necessarity of using a corpse, I think it's either a dummy or nothing at all, and a dummy would make sense to create a scenario, make a picture in the hospital and at the coroner, have it transported to FL, where they would open the coffin after 10 weeks, finding the corpse in perfect state. So I think a dummy is the best scenario for me now: everything the same as when it would have been MJ, the only thing would be that the MJ wouldn't be real, like many other things in this whole saga. Very big pro for the use of a dummy is that you can have it look IDENTICAL to MJ. That means that anyone not handeling the body wouldn't have to have a clue that it was fake.
dont believe the dead body theory. i dont feel it is nessecary and a dummy can 'fool' as many people as a corpse, so why use a corpse, complicate things further and delve into unethical territory when a latex dummy can do the same thing.... my personal view is that a dummy has been used. also just wanted to note that souza's post above especially the text in red. when i read it instantly reminded me of latoyas statements. if a dummy was used as souza described, perfect replica of MJ, then it actually validates her statements making them not 'mere' stories. she described lifting and bending the MJ corpse, dressing him, and that he looked beautiful - weeks after date of death. what she says actually all applies if she was talking of a MJ identical dummy, which would (in her eyes and in her defence to the media / post bam) make her statements true and therefore eligable to put into her book.
anyways, just wanted to say that i am reading it all. loving it all and though i need to still gather 3 reasons why dummy would be used if i present this theory to TS - feel that this is the theory i am sticking with. i have all along. (check my previous posts ::P)
in addition to this comment and my point of view or theory abt what went into the ambo. i also just want to highlight the amazing work that maddame tussauds has done of michael over the years...
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k594/Australianbeliever/mjwax.jpg)
the possibilities are endless....
rubber, latex, wax, polysubstances, etc, etc
wont post the following picture as some might find it creepy, but will post the link. http://www.momlogic.com/images/fake-baby-gallery-2.jpg its a pic of life like baby - except is just a latex dummy. however you would never know the difference had this picture not been connected to a website that makes 'replica' babies (still creepy, i know) dummys these days are amazing.
here is a link to a 16 second video of a military training dummy. it breathes. it blinks. its damn amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB0XP07yxmc
imagine the possibilities with mj? the money he has. the contacts he has. the surgeons he knows. the hollywood prop designers he would be able to use. 25 years exp with make up, prosthetics, costume.
a dummy is 'very' MJ, and agian, i dont have my three reasons why yet, i am working on an additonal post with more pointed reasons for choosing dummy theory - but lets all face it, it is very MJ.
EDIT: Link for military training dummy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB0XP07yxmc
Post by: mimi248 on November 27, 2011, 08:17:42 AM
@Ginafelicia =:so if all theories fail and none are correct then, it IS the time to ask us " did MJ really fake his death?"
I know it's really hard to figure out how MJ faked his death. We are all coming up with theories, but not all of the are correct. Untill now we didn't get any clue yet. So TS.......Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllppppppppppppp
Post by: applehead250609 on November 27, 2011, 08:56:41 AM
@Ginafelicia =:so if all theories fail and none are correct then, it IS the time to ask us " did MJ really fake his death?"
I know it's really hard to figure out how MJ faked his death. We are all coming up with theories, but not all of the are correct. Untill now we didn't get any clue yet. So TS.......Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllppppppppppppp
You know Mimi,I had thought that many times also.What if Michael didn't fake his death,and all was a BIG BIG ILLUSION???
Sometimes I ask myself:Why Michael had to do this,when he was happy with is children and family?? He finally had peace,and 2005 trial was already forgotten.He was already a father and had everything a human wants,money,fame and success.
Why COME BACK to TOUR again,when himself already admitted that it doesen't LIKE to tour.Why come back to REEASERT his KING OF POP "title",and then just simply "DIE" :shock: ??? Why Michael had to EVEN return in the first place,then to practically KILL the " KING OF POP" ,this is a good question :shock:????
Post by: Grace on November 27, 2011, 09:06:33 AM
@Ginafelicia =:so if all theories fail and none are correct then, it IS the time to ask us " did MJ really fake his death?"
I know it's really hard to figure out how MJ faked his death. We are all coming up with theories, but not all of the are correct. Untill now we didn't get any clue yet. So TS.......Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllppppppppppppp
Nope.
We know he did it because nobody is capable to weave such a net of recognizable koinkidances but Michael.
Everybody not coming from his homebase did fail to date and will fail in the future.
Wannabees never succeed no matter how big their database, search engine or manipulative attempts.
The aura is missing. Wannabees don't taste like Michael. They taste like ordinary people trying too hard.
That's where heart and gut knowing do gain territory rightfully.
If our theories fail - so what?
Honestly, so what?
Is it important that we are right or some of us are right or that a specific poster is right?
Nope.
It does not matter if we are right and found the "gral" of enlightenment how and why it was done and understand absolutely exactly to the detail what was the specific trick this or that day.
Except - well, except if somebody else is expecting us for some reason to be "right" and know and understand this. Well, we don't have to live up to anybody's expectations, not here, not anywhere.
As to me, I don't care about all the tricks in detail. It would be nice to know but I don't need to know the tricks to think they were great. They were magic, brilliant, keeping us hooked and on the rollercoaster, making us more than once laugh so hard and cry so deep. They were the best trigger to educate ourselves, grow, learn and find love.
Coming back to the topic of this chapter, I now don't think anything important went to UCLA except an empty stretcher with some fill-up material under the sheets (covering the face for privacy reasons on arrival). There's always an excuse for keeping a VIP's privacy. UCLA did have some legal issues on keeping privacy in the past, so telling them with a "hint" would certainly erase questions.
On the provided photo material, there was no IV bag and no life support material visible and the stretcher was not in direct sight. Nothing must have been on the stretcher except something filling up the sheets - could have been an inflatable doll as well which does not give any heartburn for disposal either. If you have the important emergency people in the ambu and at UCLA on your payroll and get into the right room closed for public eyes immediately (awaited) - who needs a body.
The "something in sheets" going from UCLA to Coroner is a different story since they had to lift it in the van and some weight was needed. There was something to lift - I remember we talked about the manoeuvre like they would lift a potato sack and let it drop.
For the transport to UCLA I don't really see that. Loading the stretcher into the ambu in hiding, in hiding unloading it from ambu - nothing important needed to be on the stretcher, especially if you create enough chaos on arrival with 10 guys entering the emergency section at once and piddling around.
Michael's entertainer's principle is to make it work "as if" to "make.believe" with the least effort required and the best precision to be achieved. He did that before in his concerts so why assume he would not profit from and expand this feature to unknown minimalism and perfection. Perfection is not adding. Perfection is reducing to the absolute minimum.
If the movie is being created in our mind and not in real life (or only partly in real life - the trial was a reality show not reality) - and we go ahh and ohh on our own like in every good show - only the cornerstones for a story need to be placed. Everybody enjoying his own mind and own culturally conditioned script.
Cornerstones are:
- a transport from Carolwood to UCLA (getting the public into fever),
- a finale at UCLA (point of no return, worst fear is proclaimed to have come true),
- a transport of a so-thought deceased corpse from UCLA to the Coroner (maybe it was a potato sack?)
- the story will then develop itself.
Nothing on the stretcher to UCLA.
Something - but not necessarily a corpse - on the stretcher to the Coroner.
Post by: mimi248 on November 27, 2011, 09:45:44 AM
@Ginafelicia =:so if all theories fail and none are correct then, it IS the time to ask us " did MJ really fake his death?"
I know it's really hard to figure out how MJ faked his death. We are all coming up with theories, but not all of the are correct. Untill now we didn't get any clue yet. So TS.......Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllppppppppppppp
You know Mimi,I had thought that many times also.What if Michael didn't fake his death,and all was a BIG BIG ILLUSION???
Sometimes I ask myself:Why Michael had to do this,when he was happy with is children and family?? He finally had peace,and 2005 trial was already forgotten.He was already a father and had everything a human wants,money,fame and success.
Why COME BACK to TOUR again,when himself already admitted that it doesen't LIKE to tour.Why come back to REEASERT his KING OF POP "title",and then just simply "DIE" :shock: ??? Why Michael had to COME BACK to practically KILL the " KING OF POP" ,this is a good question :shock:????
Because MJ is NOT just " the king of pop" or a great ( ok best ) enterteiner in the world) he is MUCH MORE than that . and if you refuse or are afraid to accept "evidence", i'm sorry cuz maybe it's time to really understand who mj really is. when he come back how do you think he would return? i'm sure , he won't return as Michael Jackson the king of pop. he won't do concert again, neither films of stuff like that.
remember the trailer of this is it . because the WHY of this, is explained and is in it !
" the event of a life". what the hell they are talking about? do you really think it is just all about a movie, or reeasert his " title" and after that? ok, he will change the world and will proove that medias justice etc.. are corrupted by prejudice . ok, on that point we HAVE the why is there still a hoax . but after that? when he returns showing himself to the world and prooving he is not dead, what will he do ? ya know?so, it is not. if it was just about that, i'm SURE michael wouldn't come back because he wants to keep his "LEGEND " alive . and I'm sorry but thinking about a michael jackson being 70 years old and made his fan sad and stuff doesn't match at all!! So trust me if he was really alive in a physical body and blood he would NOT come back (and remember he is peter pan in all minds you see?) . So you have to start thinking WAYYYYYY outside the box, because i feel the truth is here, not there . but this is just what i mean :)
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 27, 2011, 09:51:36 AM
You are actually saying that Michael is Jesus, thus divine. If you think so, please show me with supporting scriptures that God intended to send his Son back to earth a second time in a human form. Not here, but in the thread I linked to above please.
Post by: diggyon on November 27, 2011, 09:57:14 AM
Post by: Starchild on November 27, 2011, 10:01:25 AM
TS puts such a strong emphasis on very FEW people in on the hoax below, even some of the Jackson family, which I think reflects on who or what went in the ambulance on the 25th.The dummy theory is a very reasonable possibility (yes, am speculating on both sides of the fence here). Thanks for the informative video, MJonmind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74HR-Za7z4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74HR-Za7z4) (at 00:30-03:50 in particular, and there is also an interesting shot from 10:30-10:35).
Remember the dummies can be so very realistic nowadays, perhaps cost millions, but that's okay. Watch at :30.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74HR-Za7z4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74HR-Za7z4)
I think the medic who intubated it would have to be in on the hoax, but perhaps not the others. I think only Alverez needs to be in from the body guards. Perhaps only Jermaine and LaToya are in for the family, not Katherine or Joe or the rest. I've said before that Prince and Paris were probably told the day before or so, and much later they told Blanket.Quote6. Katherine and RandySpeaking of the murder theory: many people have had their faith shaken lately—especially with Katherine crying in the Oprah interview, as well as some tweets from Randy. But again, if people would take the Elvis connection seriously: they would understand a lot more, and it would be much easier to “keep the faith”.If you read the book by Elvis/Jesse (and Dr. Hinton), The Truth About Elvis Aron Presley In His Own Words (which I will abbreviate as TTAEAP): you will find repeated similar statements, such as this one—which is right up front in the introduction. “So many people have written or spoke about my death as a hoax. It was not a hoax! ... Elvis Presley did die that day.” The physical body lived on, yes; but the performer, the King of Rock, ceased to exist on 8-16-1977.With MJ: his enemies really did kill the reputation, the image, the performer, the King of Pop—Michael Joseph Jackson. Therefore, the statements and emotions of the family are real—even though it is metaphorical murder, and not literal. Even the Bible uses death and murder in a metaphorical sense: “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer ...” (1 John 3:15; see Luke 9:60; etc).Katherine was crying on the Oprah interview; and it was real emotions and real tears, not just acting. She also said on that same interview, in the context of molestation charges and not the context of 6-25-2009: “I can’t talk about anything without crying ...” {4:31, http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o)}.Also her biggest grief on June 25 was not when Murray told her that MJ was “gone” (to the airport). Instead, her major grief was when she had to take the children home with her; because at that point, MJ really was “gone”—and the children would not then be living with him or seeing him regularly {10:21, http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o (http://http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLy_-sCG76o)}.But if any still have difficulty with the emotions and statements of Katherine and/or Randy, you might want to consider that maybe some of the family members are not in on the hoax. I’m not saying that this is the actual case; but if it’s easier for you, this is yet another example where the Elvis connection could help.“One fact that most people would think is that my Daddy [Vernon] must have known, well he didn’t. We were planning on telling him when he passed away without ever knowing.” (TTAEAP 28). “My own Daddy bless his soul never knew the truth. Little Lisa was told months later and explained to her she would not see me much. ... I feel bad my Daddy wasn’t allowed to know but it just couldn’t be done.” (TTAEAP 32,33). “Also let me tell you that my Daddy did not know of this hoax if they want to call it that. If he had not died suddenly, we would have told him. ... To this day I feel terrible about this. But he had to be eliminated from the beginning. He was to be told after 3 years but as you know he passed 6 months too early.” (TTAEAP 56).- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
7. Bahrain And MichaelOne of the redirects included this statement: “It’s quite reasonable to think that one of the places MJ’s been hiding out in is Bahrain.” {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15880#p268640 (http://http//michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15880#p268640)}. Several questioned why I would redirect to this, and put MJ at risk.First, let me repeat what I have said before: just because I redirect to something, it does not mean that I agree with every single word on the comment or webpage that is redirected; instead, look for the main points being said, not necessarily every detail. In this case, however, I did make sure to redirect to a post which had a very important detail in it: “ONE of the places MJ’s been hiding”.Second, Bahrain could be a decoy. Third, whether or not it’s a decoy: TS is certainly not the only one who has given the Bahrain clue. It was also on the Jackson Reality Show, on the recent Oprah interview, and on TMZ. “Bahrain Company Didn’t Get Memo On MJ’s Death” {http://http://www.tmz.com/2010/11/19/michael-jackson-estate-creditors-claim-estate-bahrain-company-loan/ (http://http//www.tmz.com/2010/11/19/michael-jackson-estate-creditors-claim-estate-bahrain-company-loan/)}. As many noticed, this title had nothing to do with the article; the title was a clue that Bahrain didn’t know about MJ’s death, because they did know that he is not dead!Elvis/Jesse has also listed several of his past hiding places—including Apopka, Florida; Tenino, Washington; and Hawaii, which is a paradise island (TTAEAP 28,38,40,48). Many rumors have circulated for years about Elvis living on some “paradise island”; well, he actually did! And of course, Bahrain is also a paradise island.
(On another note, also agree with the idea in No. 6 above that not all of the family has been or is in on the hoax and, along with others, posted about it here: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=5167.msg347372#msg347372 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=5167.msg347372#msg347372). The only question is, regarding Katherine and Joe not being in the know, how effective would Prince and Paris be at keeping a tidbit like that from their grandparents indefinitely? Still inclined to believe that Katherine and Joe may have found out about the hoax in the interim period between June 25, 2009, and the Memorial the following July.)
Post by: paula-c on November 27, 2011, 10:48:05 AM
A dummy would have had good results in a Memorial to the open coffin,..... as well as Elvis :lol:
Post by: fordtocarr on November 27, 2011, 11:25:01 AM
But, if I'm left with choices of dummy or corpse I'll pick dummy, but I think nothing was there. Illusion.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 27, 2011, 12:42:36 PM
IF the WHY did NOT involve fooling anyone who supposedly saw the 'body' at either Carolwood or UCLA...then there is no NEED for anything to be used at all because they were 'in on it' (i.e. a dummy or corpse wasn't needed to fool them...so why go through the trouble?).
IF the WHY involved having to 'fool' someone or certain people either at Carolwood or at UCLA or both...people that actually had to SEE a 'body' or something in order to be fooled into thinking it was really MJ...then that would necessitate a NEED to have 'something' as a stand-in (or lay-down lol) in Mike's place (if Mike didn't actually play the part himself).
TS said he would rule out a living MJ playing the part (and gave his reasons for it), as well as a living double playing the part (still waiting for TS to post about that). So, the only possible options left IF, in fact, anyone NEEDED to be fooled are: 1) a dummy that looks like MJ, or 2) a corpse (but not just any corpse, it would HAVE to be one that looked like MJ because that would be the whole purpose...to fool whoever into thinking it's really MJ).
But the question remains: WHO, at Carolwood or UCLA who supposedly saw the 'body', needed to be fooled and WHY? AND, if that's the case, would a dummy or a corpse have fooled them?
I'm having a hard time believing that real paramedics and real doctors and real coroners would or could be fooled into thinking they were working on a real person when, in actuality, they were working on a dummy. So, again, IF a dummy was used, it was because it was NEEDED in order to fool someone at Carolwood, not UCLA. But WHO and why? The only possible 'WHO's are Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez since they are the ONLY ones who supposedly saw a 'body'.
IF a real body was used, it (again) would've been because there was a NEED to fool people into thinking it was really MJ. A hospice patient may have fooled everyone at Carolwood and perhaps even UCLA...I can agree with that. I guess I'm somewhere between this theory and the theory of nothing at all being used....but leaning more towards 'nothing' at all because I can't figure out WHO would need to be fooled AND who would be fooled...and why there was a need to fool them. A real body, IMO, would ONLY be needed in order to fool real paramedics and real doctors. With the exception of Murray and Alvarez, the only ones who may have needed to be fooled at Carolwood would be Amir or Mohommad...and I can't see the NEED to have a real corpse just to fool either of them since neither testified to 'handling' the body or being around long enough to 'study' it---in that case, a dummy would make more sense to me. I believe that Murray and Alvarez HAD to be in on it and I can't see how MJ could've pulled this all off without the help of at least some doctors at UCLA (Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen).
So with the 'real corpse' theory, I'm still stuck with WHO was it meant to fool and why? Just by process of elimination, we can get down to only a very 'few' of the ones that supposedly saw the 'body' who could've possibly had to be fooled by it. IMO, it would be SO much easier and simpler to bring those very 'few' (like Senneff and Blount) into the 'hoax' and eliminate the need to fool anyone...rather than having to go to the trouble of having a real corpse that looks like MJ (enough so to fool people) die on June 25th.
But maybe there was a scenario going on that meant having a real MJ-looking-corpse on June 25th wasn't a lot of trouble (i.e. a hospice patient who had plastic surgery to look like MJ and who was sick and being cared for by Mike/Murray and who agreed to have his 'dead body' used on June 25th in order to make MJ's hoax plans more realistic to whoever needed to be fooled). In order to 'prove' that, though, IMO a LOT more dots need to be connected than have been so far. Nor am I sure there are enough 'dots' currently available to prove this scenario.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 12:50:43 PM
remind me again why we're trying to figure this out without any definitive proof for either theory?
(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/work-school/school-studying/studying.gif)
Post by: fordtocarr on November 27, 2011, 12:56:57 PM
This is why knowing the WHY of the hoax (7c) is important in order to understand the hows (7a and 7b) because depending on the WHY, the hows would be different (i.e. the 'hows' are/were put into place to fulfill the 'why').
IF the WHY did NOT involve fooling anyone who supposedly saw the 'body' at either Carolwood or UCLA...then there is no NEED for anything to be used at all because they were 'in on it' (i.e. a dummy or corpse wasn't needed to fool them...so why go through the trouble?).
IF the WHY involved having to 'fool' someone or certain people either at Carolwood or at UCLA or both...people that actually had to SEE a 'body' or something in order to be fooled into thinking it was really MJ...then that would necessitate a NEED to have 'something' as a stand-in (or lay-down lol) in Mike's place (if Mike didn't actually play the part himself).
TS said he would rule out a living MJ playing the part (and gave his reasons for it), as well as a living double playing the part (still waiting for TS to post about that). So, the only possible options left IF, in fact, anyone NEEDED to be fooled are: 1) a dummy that looks like MJ, or 2) a corpse (but not just any corpse, it would HAVE to be one that looked like MJ because that would be the whole purpose...to fool whoever into thinking it's really MJ).
But the question remains: WHO, at Carolwood or UCLA who supposedly saw the 'body', needed to be fooled and WHY? AND, if that's the case, would a dummy or a corpse have fooled them?
I'm having a hard time believing that real paramedics and real doctors and real coroners would or could be fooled into thinking they were working on a real person when, in actuality, they were working on a dummy. So, again, IF a dummy was used, it was because it was NEEDED in order to fool someone at Carolwood, not UCLA. But WHO and why? The only possible 'WHO's are Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez since they are the ONLY ones who supposedly saw a 'body'.
IF a real body was used, it (again) would've been because there was a NEED to fool people into thinking it was really MJ. A hospice patient may have fooled everyone at Carolwood and perhaps even UCLA...I can agree with that. I guess I'm somewhere between this theory and the theory of nothing at all being used....but leaning more towards 'nothing' at all because I can't figure out WHO would need to be fooled AND who would be fooled...and why there was a need to fool them. A real body, IMO, would ONLY be needed in order to fool real paramedics and real doctors. With the exception of Murray and Alvarez, the only ones who may have needed to be fooled at Carolwood would be Amir or Mohommad...and I can't see the NEED to have a real corpse just to fool either of them since neither testified to 'handling' the body or being around long enough to 'study' it---in that case, a dummy would make more sense to me. I believe that Murray and Alvarez HAD to be in on it and I can't see how MJ could've pulled this all off without the help of at least some doctors at UCLA (Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen).
So with the 'real corpse' theory, I'm still stuck with WHO was it meant to fool and why? Just by process of elimination, we can get down to only a very 'few' of the ones that supposedly saw the 'body' who could've possibly had to be fooled by it. IMO, it would be SO much easier and simpler to bring those very 'few' (like Senneff and Blount) into the 'hoax' and eliminate the need to fool anyone...rather than having to go to the trouble of having a real corpse that looks like MJ (enough so to fool people) die on June 25th.
But maybe there was a scenario going on that meant having a real MJ-looking-corpse on June 25th wasn't a lot of trouble (i.e. a hospice patient who had plastic surgery to look like MJ and who was sick and being cared for by Mike/Murray and who agreed to have his 'dead body' used on June 25th in order to make MJ's hoax plans more realistic to whoever needed to be fooled). In order to 'prove' that, though, IMO a LOT more dots need to be connected than have been so far. Nor am I sure there are enough 'dots' currently available to prove this scenario.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Great summation! I totally get all you are saying and agree on each point. It's what I've been trying to say for a few pages. I like your last paragraph also, about the hospice patient...which could've been a double, as I've said quite often...a sickly one dying that they didn't recognize right away...but, that's just a theory.
My betting is it wasn't that, but Michael was known to help dying people so I wouldn't put it past him to help someone who's life was to imitate him. But, it goes to, how'd he happen to die on the very day that made the pepsi accident work out?
I stick with nothing used and prob. a movie/sting.
Great post.
Post by: Andrea on November 27, 2011, 12:59:13 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 01:08:13 PM
This sentence from TS - "In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher" - makes me think that live MJ is on the stretcher, he just didn't sit up. In that sentence from TS, it almost implies that MJ was on the stretcher. And no need for a dummy or corpse and all the complications that would come with. The person's ear and hair that many assumed was MJ sitting up seems to be a happy coincidence for us hoaxers.
Or TS could simply be referring to Evenstad's video as having been "altered" and how it was done. If the ambo pic is fake, why would this video clip be real? The eyes see what they want to see, not necessarily what's there.
Doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher in my opinion. :?
Security could have just as easily held up their jackets to make people think something is on the stretcher when there wasn't. :|
Post by: Andrea on November 27, 2011, 01:19:29 PM
This sentence from TS - "In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher" - makes me think that live MJ is on the stretcher, he just didn't sit up. In that sentence from TS, it almost implies that MJ was on the stretcher. And no need for a dummy or corpse and all the complications that would come with. The person's ear and hair that many assumed was MJ sitting up seems to be a happy coincidence for us hoaxers.
Or TS could simply be referring to Evenstad's video as having been "altered" and how it was done. If the ambo pic is fake, why would this video clip be real? The eyes see what they want to see, not necessarily what's there.
Doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher in my opinion. :?
Security could have just as easily held up their jackets to make people think something is on the stretcher when there wasn't. :|
No it doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher but TS is always careful with wording and it doesn't take him off the stretcher either.
Post by: diggyon on November 27, 2011, 01:44:38 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 01:50:07 PM
This sentence from TS - "In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher" - makes me think that live MJ is on the stretcher, he just didn't sit up. In that sentence from TS, it almost implies that MJ was on the stretcher. And no need for a dummy or corpse and all the complications that would come with. The person's ear and hair that many assumed was MJ sitting up seems to be a happy coincidence for us hoaxers.
Or TS could simply be referring to Evenstad's video as having been "altered" and how it was done. If the ambo pic is fake, why would this video clip be real? The eyes see what they want to see, not necessarily what's there.
Doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher in my opinion. :?
Security could have just as easily held up their jackets to make people think something is on the stretcher when there wasn't. :|
No it doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher but TS is always careful with wording and it doesn't take him off the stretcher either.
Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.
Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6 (http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6)}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.
To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
As we go through and continue to debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly): no doubt it will cause some to fear that MJ really died, and there is no hoax (and this could be the reason for some of the resistance displayed in 7a). It is true, as Jesus said, that those who build their faith upon the sand will have their house collapse when a storm comes through (see Matthew 7:24-27).
Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. [/u] Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).
And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after. And if people who come to this forum after the BAM can see that we have a good solid coherent theory on the how’s, then they will be much more likely to believe that we also have the correct understanding of the why’s.
Am I reading it wrong???? suspicious//
Post by: wishingstar on November 27, 2011, 02:21:13 PM
"Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards! That is possible, of course, especially if he was planning to sit up; therefore, I consider this only a minor point. Please carefully compare these pictures; the second picture (click the link) is a stretcher from the LAFD, just like the one that went into ULCA. You should be able to see three or four things which show that the stretcher went into UCLA feet first {http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy}."
It is very easy to see that the feet went first into UCLA. LAFD loads patients with the wheels first...the head is on the end with the wheels. You can see the wheels on the end of the stretcher...they came out last from the ambulance. Hence the feet went first, because they are not at the wheel end of the stretcher.
TS said:
"Fifth, there is one person standing in the doorway, who does not move with the stretcher (Heron). This means that unless the mystery face is that of someone walking with the stretcher on the far side of it, then EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera (on the left side and head of it). This of course is possible, but it seems more reasonable that at least one person would be walking the stretcher on the far side (on the right side or foot of it)."
I see mustache dude staring out at the camera. However, TS, I don't quite understand your comment of "EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera". How does mustache dude prove that? We can plainly see the dark-haired paramedic walking with the stretcher on the back far corner......like you said it would be more reasonable to see. I guess I don't understand why you made this comment.....why bother? I thought mustache dude was hospital security anyways...just there to stand guard so nobody but the correct people got in. Is he more significant than that? The mystery face seems like a backwards walking paramedic, though I don't know if that's the way they do things.....seems rather odd. But, then again so is a backing out ambulance.
I am still not 100% convinced that MJ did not go to UCLA in some vehicle....ambulance or otherwise. However, all this speculation on who or what went to UCLA makes me wonder what the true purpose of it all is. I will say, Ben's video is making it more clear to me that staging was highly intricate. The timing had to be perfect.......remember "time dots". This is a picture puzzle of huge proportions. It's all in front of our eyes, that I am sure of.
Alfred Hitchcock's photocrime essay in Look magazine June 15, 1943, reminds me of this hoax:
Hitchcock also wrote a mystery story for Look magazine in 1943, "The Murder of Monty Woolley". This was a sequence of captioned photographs inviting the reader to inspect the pictures for clues to the murderer's identity; Hitchcock cast the performers as themselves; such as Woolley, Doris Merrick and make up man Guy Pearce, whom Hitchcock identified, in the last photo, as the murderer. The article was reprinted in Games Magazine in November/December 1980.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Hitchcock
A long time ago I did a thread comparing this hoax to great works of fiction...Poe, Shakespeare etc....I still think that's a valid thought. However, if ever there was a new vein in the Hollywood crime drama....a nod to Hitchcock would have to be in place. This all screams Hitchcock to me......I can't believe I didn't see it earlier. I love Hitchcock and know him fairly well.......I need a smilely for hitting my head against the wall! I think there is much we do not know.....surely there were threats against Michael and his family....probably for a long time, sad to say. Perhaps, those threats became too much. Or Hollywood Doctors became too much for Michael to take...seeing his dear friends die. The why's are many...we will know soon enough. The how's are being lifted and reveled slowly....I wish I could contribute more on that side.
@BeTheChange........you are absolutely rockin' the posts lately...you all are, however, BTC......amazing : ) Love to you!!!!
Love to all......and many blessings always
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 27, 2011, 02:22:41 PM
Who would need to be fooled would be onlookers that could arise in the course. If despite all the care, if these people saw an empty stretcher would be very complicated. Don't let's forget the videos the helicopter. All remember someone visibly raising , so why that video was recorded from the helicopter?
If anyone was there, alive ... could be MJ or a double instead.
The theory of a dummy also makes sense. Let's see ....
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 02:34:20 PM
Hi all. been away for a few days attending to family situation. just read last 5 pages. brilliant reading - (except the resurrection / assention stuff - glad that has been shown the door, IMO only)So until someone can provide a plausible necessarity of using a corpse, I think it's either a dummy or nothing at all, and a dummy would make sense to create a scenario, make a picture in the hospital and at the coroner, have it transported to FL, where they would open the coffin after 10 weeks, finding the corpse in perfect state. So I think a dummy is the best scenario for me now: everything the same as when it would have been MJ, the only thing would be that the MJ wouldn't be real, like many other things in this whole saga. Very big pro for the use of a dummy is that you can have it look IDENTICAL to MJ. That means that anyone not handeling the body wouldn't have to have a clue that it was fake.
dont believe the dead body theory. i dont feel it is nessecary and a dummy can 'fool' as many people as a corpse, so why use a corpse, complicate things further and delve into unethical territory when a latex dummy can do the same thing.... my personal view is that a dummy has been used. also just wanted to note that souza's post above especially the text in red. when i read it instantly reminded me of latoyas statements. if a dummy was used as souza described, perfect replica of MJ, then it actually validates her statements making them not 'mere' stories. she described lifting and bending the MJ corpse, dressing him, and that he looked beautiful - weeks after date of death. what she says actually all applies if she was talking of a MJ identical dummy, which would (in her eyes and in her defence to the media / post bam) make her statements true and therefore eligable to put into her book.
anyways, just wanted to say that i am reading it all. loving it all and though i need to still gather 3 reasons why dummy would be used if i present this theory to TS - feel that this is the theory i am sticking with. i have all along. (check my previous posts ::P)
in addition to this comment and my point of view or theory abt what went into the ambo. i also just want to highlight the amazing work that maddame tussauds has done of michael over the years...
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k594/Australianbeliever/mjwax.jpg)
the possibilities are endless....
rubber, latex, wax, polysubstances, etc, etc
wont post the following picture as some might find it creepy, but will post the link. http://www.momlogic.com/images/fake-baby-gallery-2.jpg its a pic of life like baby - except is just a latex dummy. however you would never know the difference had this picture not been connected to a website that makes 'replica' babies (still creepy, i know) dummys these days are amazing.
here is a link to a 16 second video of a military training dummy. it breathes. it blinks. its damn amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB0XP07yxmc
imagine the possibilities with mj? the money he has. the contacts he has. the surgeons he knows. the hollywood prop designers he would be able to use. 25 years exp with make up, prosthetics, costume.
a dummy is 'very' MJ, and agian, i dont have my three reasons why yet, i am working on an additonal post with more pointed reasons for choosing dummy theory - but lets all face it, it is very MJ.
EDIT: Link for military training dummy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB0XP07yxmc
The use of a dummy could also account for the "weight" discrepancy on the AR ....136lbs (Actual dummy weight from the Coroner), which is all fake anyway, but loosely based on MJ's specs.
While a dummy could be designed to look like MJ, the weight factor may not have been controllable factor to a certain degree given the materials used to create it.
The "live double" or corpse theory has to many uncontrollable variables in my opinion.
I agree, this seems the most plausible in my opinion, although I don't know how this would change the perception of the hoax. :?
*Side note, Kai Chase having seen a glimpse of this dummy might have questioned it (therefore told after the fact of the hoax). She smiles like she has a secret--->perhaps mentally recalling the image of the "dummy" carried out on the stretcher that day. ::P
Also, it could explain the difference in testimony of Senneff and Blount (someone "glancing" at it might recognize Michael's resemblance immediately, whereas someone else might not)
Post by: Andrea on November 27, 2011, 02:35:49 PM
This sentence from TS - "In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher" - makes me think that live MJ is on the stretcher, he just didn't sit up. In that sentence from TS, it almost implies that MJ was on the stretcher. And no need for a dummy or corpse and all the complications that would come with. The person's ear and hair that many assumed was MJ sitting up seems to be a happy coincidence for us hoaxers.
Or TS could simply be referring to Evenstad's video as having been "altered" and how it was done. If the ambo pic is fake, why would this video clip be real? The eyes see what they want to see, not necessarily what's there.
Doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher in my opinion. :?
Security could have just as easily held up their jackets to make people think something is on the stretcher when there wasn't. :|
No it doesn't automatically put Michael on the stretcher but TS is always careful with wording and it doesn't take him off the stretcher either.
Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.
Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6 (http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6)}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.
To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
As we go through and continue to debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly): no doubt it will cause some to fear that MJ really died, and there is no hoax (and this could be the reason for some of the resistance displayed in 7a). It is true, as Jesus said, that those who build their faith upon the sand will have their house collapse when a storm comes through (see Matthew 7:24-27).
Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. [/u] Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).
And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after. And if people who come to this forum after the BAM can see that we have a good solid coherent theory on the how’s, then they will be much more likely to believe that we also have the correct understanding of the why’s.
Am I reading it wrong???? suspicious//
No Snoopy you're not reading TS's post wrong, lol.
"For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax."
By including the "sitting up in the stretcher" part, TS can accurately say that "it is not correct" (since he de-bunked that bit) while also saying it "is correct in a general sense", whether he's referring to the other sequence of events or MJ's love to be in the middle of the action is up to interpretation. The thing is, the success of the events that day could have been bungled no matter what was in the ambulance - a dummy/corpse/ or LIVE MJ could've been exposed - everything is a risk no matter how you look at it. And the t.o.d. still technically places Michael as alive when he arrived at the hospital, in the event he was seen moving or something. He can still "die" a little later on, and not be considered DOA.
Also, - "The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van." - he didn't do it merely so that he could have some fun...which could mean live MJ was there but not JUST for fun. I have not seen 2-3 solid facts showing live MJ wasn't there that day - the reasons that have been presented are more based on opinion than something that would solidly de-bunk that scenario. And I myself have not seen evidence showing Michael somewhere else that day, the airport thing is a possibility but not enough for me to be clearly convinced of it. If I'm taking this all the wrong way then I apologize in advance.
Post by: applehead250609 on November 27, 2011, 02:40:04 PM
Dummy....Corpse...Live MJ.....
remind me again why we're trying to figure this out without any definitive proof for either theory?
(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/work-school/school-studying/studying.gif)
Snoopy71 I still don't understand either WHAT'S UP with all these dummies and Corpses :? afraid/ ,lol. Is this Hoax a REAL THRILLER or what :? ??? I don't know much about medicine and AUTOPSY ,but how can you make a real autopsy on a dummy ,lol geek/ !!! OMG and they even took out THE BRAIN out afraid/ ,and then put it back in the dummy head,OMG only thinking at that it makes me sick :?!!!! So even if they used a DEAD CORPSE I can't IMAGINE either them doing that,sorry,because it would be very disperectful for the CORPSE :? !!!
Wait !!!! I have a question!!! Why they even needed Michael's BRAIN in the first place????? ODD,very odd :?!!! Look what some news wrote about Michael's brain:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/ (http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/)
Michael Jackson will be buried this week– without his brain. As his family tries to finalise details for the King of Pop’s funeral on Tuesday they have been told it will be held back for tests.
They faced the grim choice of waiting up to three weeks for Jackson’s brain to be returned to them or go ahead and bury him without it – which they have decided to do.
Los Angeles Coroner’s spokesman Craig Harvey confirmed that neuropathology tests will be carried out to see if it holds any clues to the exact cause of his death.
But the examination cannot begin until at least two weeks after the death when the brain has hardened sufficiently to slice it open.
Jackson died from a cardiac arrest at his Beverly Hills mansion on June 25 after a suspected overdose of painkillers.
Sources at the coroner’s office revealed that his brain was removed before his body was released to relatives the next day.
A forensic neuropathologist will test Jackson’s brain for, among other things, past drug use and whether he has suffered overdoses in the past.
The brain can also show any past abuse of alcohol or if the deceased had suffered from any one of a number of diseases. The source said that removing the brain is the “only way to carry out the tests”.
“The tissue has to be examined,” he said. “I can’t tell you how long that is going to take.”
One expert explained that the Jackson family could decide to wait and bury the brain with the rest of the body. But it is far more common for the lab to burn the remains once they’ve been examined or for them to be placed into the grave at a later date.
“It’s up to the family. They can bury him and then bury the brain later on,” said Dr Cyril Wecht, a former coroner and one of America’s foremost forensic pathologists.
Advertisement - article continues below »
Click here to find out more!
But he added: “It’s rare for the body to be held back for two weeks or more.”
Jackson’s body was handed over to his family soon after the three-hour autopsy was completed and the Jacksons went on to order a second forensic examination.
But Dr Wecht said: “The brain cannot be properly examined at the time of the autopsy. You cannot test it while it is in the body. So it is cut off at the spinal cord and removed.”
The brain would usually be placed in a plastic bucket, suspended in formaldehyde fluid, and put in a refridgerator at 4C to preserve it.
Dr Wecht went on: “People don’t realise how soft the brain is. To do the type of detailed examination required you need to have the brain much harder – and for that you have to wait for at least 10 days to two weeks.”
Dr Wecht, who was not involved in the Jackson autopsies, has reviewed and been consulted on many high-profile deaths, including John F. Kennedy, Elvis Presley and Anna Nicole Smith. afraid/ geek/
“In Los Angeles they have a neuropathologist they work with, and he will be looking at the brain,” he said.
It is cut into sections afraid/ afraid/ :? of less than half-an-inch thick and reviewed first by the naked eye and then through a microscopic. “That all takes 17 to 18 days,” Dr Wecht added in an exclusive interview.
Dr Wecht, who chronicles his career dissecting more than 16,000 bodies afraid/ afraid/ :? in his best- selling memoir A Question Of Murder, added: “In the 47 years I have been doing this I reckon only about one per cent of families say they want the brain back so they can bury it. In most cases it is incinerated.”
The autopsy is expected to show that the 50-year-old singer had drugs in his system when he died :roll: .
At various times, he is said to have been taking Demerol and Oxycontin for pain from old back and leg injuries and Diprivan, a hospital anaesthetic, to help him sleep.
- MICHAEL Jackson starred as the Scarecrow in The Wiz, the 1978 musical version of The Wizard of Oz – playing the character without a brain opposite Diana Ross as Dorothy geek/ .
Post by: MJonmind on November 27, 2011, 02:48:30 PM
Quote
I thought from the beginning it was Tohme.
I obviously couldn't answer his question but he got me thinking with who's authority were the employees sent home. Who's call is this?
Australian MJ BeLIEver
Quote
dont believe the dead body theory. i dont feel it is nessecary and a dummy can 'fool' as many people as a corpse, so why use a corpse, complicate things further and delve into unethical territory when a latex dummy can do the same thing.... my personal view is that a dummy has been used. also just wanted to note that souza's post above especially the text in red. when i read it instantly reminded me of latoyas statements. if a dummy was used as souza described, perfect replica of MJ, then it actually validates her statements making them not 'mere' stories. she described lifting and bending the MJ corpse, dressing him, and that he looked beautiful - weeks after date of death. what she says actually all applies if she was talking of a MJ identical dummy, which would (in her eyes and in her defence to the media / post bam) make her statements true and therefore eligable to put into her book.
Yes, it seems LaToya was charged with guarding/keeping the body, and only letting people see a tiny bit of him/it at a time, lifting a corner of the sheet, to take a sample or whatever. Since when do family members do that? Lol Even on the 25th when it was brought to UCLA, if it was nearly always covered with a sheet, it could fool a lot more people, as they were supposedly trying to protect him from prying people even UCLA staff. So only a couple of doctors needed to be in on it, and the rest believe the illusion. The human mind seems so very weak, and so vulnerable to the powers of suggestion, and not wanting to look like a fool. Thus 99% of the world thinks MJ’s dead.
I also personally believe that if MJ really didn’t want us hoaxers delving into things, he could have made that day completely convincing. He intentional put in flaws for our benefit to question, or we wouldn’t be here. MJ only lets us see what he wants us to see, no more no less.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 27, 2011, 02:49:53 PM
Post by: scorpionchik on November 27, 2011, 02:56:27 PM
This is why knowing the WHY of the hoax (7c) is important in order to understand the hows (7a and 7b) because depending on the WHY, the hows would be different (i.e. the 'hows' are/were put into place to fulfill the 'why').
IF the WHY did NOT involve fooling anyone who supposedly saw the 'body' at either Carolwood or UCLA...then there is no NEED for anything to be used at all because they were 'in on it' (i.e. a dummy or corpse wasn't needed to fool them...so why go through the trouble?).
IF the WHY involved having to 'fool' someone or certain people either at Carolwood or at UCLA or both...people that actually had to SEE a 'body' or something in order to be fooled into thinking it was really MJ...then that would necessitate a NEED to have 'something' as a stand-in (or lay-down lol) in Mike's place (if Mike didn't actually play the part himself).
TS said he would rule out a living MJ playing the part (and gave his reasons for it), as well as a living double playing the part (still waiting for TS to post about that). So, the only possible options left IF, in fact, anyone NEEDED to be fooled are: 1) a dummy that looks like MJ, or 2) a corpse (but not just any corpse, it would HAVE to be one that looked like MJ because that would be the whole purpose...to fool whoever into thinking it's really MJ).
But the question remains: WHO, at Carolwood or UCLA who supposedly saw the 'body', needed to be fooled and WHY? AND, if that's the case, would a dummy or a corpse have fooled them?
I'm having a hard time believing that real paramedics and real doctors and real coroners would or could be fooled into thinking they were working on a real person when, in actuality, they were working on a dummy. So, again, IF a dummy was used, it was because it was NEEDED in order to fool someone at Carolwood, not UCLA. But WHO and why? The only possible 'WHO's are Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez since they are the ONLY ones who supposedly saw a 'body'.
IF a real body was used, it (again) would've been because there was a NEED to fool people into thinking it was really MJ. A hospice patient may have fooled everyone at Carolwood and perhaps even UCLA...I can agree with that. I guess I'm somewhere between this theory and the theory of nothing at all being used....but leaning more towards 'nothing' at all because I can't figure out WHO would need to be fooled AND who would be fooled...and why there was a need to fool them. A real body, IMO, would ONLY be needed in order to fool real paramedics and real doctors. With the exception of Murray and Alvarez, the only ones who may have needed to be fooled at Carolwood would be Amir or Mohommad...and I can't see the NEED to have a real corpse just to fool either of them since neither testified to 'handling' the body or being around long enough to 'study' it---in that case, a dummy would make more sense to me. I believe that Murray and Alvarez HAD to be in on it and I can't see how MJ could've pulled this all off without the help of at least some doctors at UCLA (Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen).
So with the 'real corpse' theory, I'm still stuck with WHO was it meant to fool and why? Just by process of elimination, we can get down to only a very 'few' of the ones that supposedly saw the 'body' who could've possibly had to be fooled by it. IMO, it would be SO much easier and simpler to bring those very 'few' (like Senneff and Blount) into the 'hoax' and eliminate the need to fool anyone...rather than having to go to the trouble of having a real corpse that looks like MJ (enough so to fool people) die on June 25th.
But maybe there was a scenario going on that meant having a real MJ-looking-corpse on June 25th wasn't a lot of trouble (i.e. a hospice patient who had plastic surgery to look like MJ and who was sick and being cared for by Mike/Murray and who agreed to have his 'dead body' used on June 25th in order to make MJ's hoax plans more realistic to whoever needed to be fooled). In order to 'prove' that, though, IMO a LOT more dots need to be connected than have been so far. Nor am I sure there are enough 'dots' currently available to prove this scenario.
With L.O.V.E. always.
EXACTLY! IF MURRAY, PARAMEDICS, BODYGUARDS ARE ALL IN HOAX, WHY USE DUMMY OR CORPSE AT ALL IF KAI SAID SHE DID NOT SEE HOW MJ GOT ON AMBULANCE? SO, FOOL WHO WITH DUMMY/CORPSE at Carolwood? DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.
WHEN DUMMY OR CORPSE GOT TO UCLA, NO WAY DOCTORS/CORONER, EVEN IF IN HOAX FOR MICHAEL PROTECTION, WOULD LIE UNDER PENALTY THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO REVIVE MICHAEL, BUT IT WAS ACTUALLY DUMMY/CORPSE. THE SAME IS APPLICABLE TO NOTHING WENT TO UCLA VERSION.
DOCTORS AND CORONER CAN BE IN HOAX ONLY IF THERE IS A LEGAL GROUND FOR THAT FOR MICHAEL SAFETY.
SO, THE 'WHY' IS CLEAR IN MY VERSION (MURDER ATTEMPT) & I STICK WITH IT THAT MICHAEL WAS TAKEN TO UCLA...and whatever I already wrote earlier.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 03:04:00 PM
But I don't believe it was MJ himself alive because I think he already left ...the big question for me is where he was on June 25th.
Ans why only Kai from all staff testified? Why they didn't ask the housekeepers what they saw or heard that day? Wasn't this important? I guess those people are not blind or deaf.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 03:05:44 PM
Here's how my twisted brain works.... :mrgreen:
TS said.....
"Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards! That is possible, of course, especially if he was planning to sit up; therefore, I consider this only a minor point. Please carefully compare these pictures; the second picture (click the link) is a stretcher from the LAFD, just like the one that went into ULCA. You should be able to see three or four things which show that the stretcher went into UCLA feet first {http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy}."
It is very easy to see that the feet went first into UCLA. LAFD loads patients with the wheels first...the head is on the end with the wheels. You can see the wheels on the end of the stretcher...they came out last from the ambulance. Hence the feet went first, because they are not at the wheel end of the stretcher.
To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. [/u] Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).
Hence, the "stretcher" (notice not "Michael") went into the ER feet first, so the video clip of Michael "sitting up" is fake and was manipulated by (Evenstad?), plus TS states Micheal DID NOT go to the hospital in the ambulance....
So, that leaves me to understand that Michael was neither on the stretcher nor in the ambulance, correct?
So either;
1) He was no where near UCLA that day
or
2) He was already there/went there disguised as someone else
TS said:
"Fifth, there is one person standing in the doorway, who does not move with the stretcher (Heron). This means that unless the mystery face is that of someone walking with the stretcher on the far side of it, then EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera (on the left side and head of it). This of course is possible, but it seems more reasonable that at least one person would be walking the stretcher on the far side (on the right side or foot of it)."
It possibly puts Michael in the vicinity (in disguise) or not there at all....which means there is either a corpse or dummy or nothing on that stretcher.
That's my deduction. :|
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 03:16:45 PM
Dummy....Corpse...Live MJ.....
remind me again why we're trying to figure this out without any definitive proof for either theory?
(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/work-school/school-studying/studying.gif)
Snoopy71 I still don't understand either WHAT'S UP with all these dummies and Corpses :? afraid/ ,lol. Is this Hoax a REAL THRILLER or what :? ??? I don't know much about medicine and AUTOPSY ,but how can you make a real autopsy on a dummy ,lol geek/ !!! OMG and they even took out THE BRAIN out afraid/ ,and then put it back in the dummy head,OMG only thinking at that it makes me sick :?!!!! So even if they used a DEAD CORPSE I can't IMAGINE either them doing that,sorry,because it would be very disperectful for the CORPSE :? !!!
Wait !!!! I have a question!!! Why they even needed Michael's BRAIN in the first place????? ODD,very odd :?!!! Look what some news wrote about Michael's brain:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/ (http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/07/05/michael-jackson-to-be-buried-without-his-brain-115875-21495043/)
Michael Jackson will be buried this week– without his brain. As his family tries to finalise details for the King of Pop’s funeral on Tuesday they have been told it will be held back for tests.
They faced the grim choice of waiting up to three weeks for Jackson’s brain to be returned to them or go ahead and bury him without it – which they have decided to do.
Los Angeles Coroner’s spokesman Craig Harvey confirmed that neuropathology tests will be carried out to see if it holds any clues to the exact cause of his death.
But the examination cannot begin until at least two weeks after the death when the brain has hardened sufficiently to slice it open.
Jackson died from a cardiac arrest at his Beverly Hills mansion on June 25 after a suspected overdose of painkillers.
Sources at the coroner’s office revealed that his brain was removed before his body was released to relatives the next day.
A forensic neuropathologist will test Jackson’s brain for, among other things, past drug use and whether he has suffered overdoses in the past.
The brain can also show any past abuse of alcohol or if the deceased had suffered from any one of a number of diseases. The source said that removing the brain is the “only way to carry out the tests”.
“The tissue has to be examined,” he said. “I can’t tell you how long that is going to take.”
One expert explained that the Jackson family could decide to wait and bury the brain with the rest of the body. But it is far more common for the lab to burn the remains once they’ve been examined or for them to be placed into the grave at a later date.
“It’s up to the family. They can bury him and then bury the brain later on,” said Dr Cyril Wecht, a former coroner and one of America’s foremost forensic pathologists.
Advertisement - article continues below »
Click here to find out more!
But he added: “It’s rare for the body to be held back for two weeks or more.”
Jackson’s body was handed over to his family soon after the three-hour autopsy was completed and the Jacksons went on to order a second forensic examination.
But Dr Wecht said: “The brain cannot be properly examined at the time of the autopsy. You cannot test it while it is in the body. So it is cut off at the spinal cord and removed.”
The brain would usually be placed in a plastic bucket, suspended in formaldehyde fluid, and put in a refridgerator at 4C to preserve it.
Dr Wecht went on: “People don’t realise how soft the brain is. To do the type of detailed examination required you need to have the brain much harder – and for that you have to wait for at least 10 days to two weeks.”
Dr Wecht, who was not involved in the Jackson autopsies, has reviewed and been consulted on many high-profile deaths, including John F. Kennedy, Elvis Presley and Anna Nicole Smith. afraid/ geek/
“In Los Angeles they have a neuropathologist they work with, and he will be looking at the brain,” he said.
It is cut into sections afraid/ afraid/ :? of less than half-an-inch thick and reviewed first by the naked eye and then through a microscopic. “That all takes 17 to 18 days,” Dr Wecht added in an exclusive interview.
Dr Wecht, who chronicles his career dissecting more than 16,000 bodies afraid/ afraid/ :? in his best- selling memoir A Question Of Murder, added: “In the 47 years I have been doing this I reckon only about one per cent of families say they want the brain back so they can bury it. In most cases it is incinerated.”
The autopsy is expected to show that the 50-year-old singer had drugs in his system when he died :roll: .
At various times, he is said to have been taking Demerol and Oxycontin for pain from old back and leg injuries and Diprivan, a hospital anaesthetic, to help him sleep.
- MICHAEL Jackson starred as the Scarecrow in The Wiz, the 1978 musical version of The Wizard of Oz – playing the character without a brain opposite Diana Ross as Dorothy geek/ .
Well, let me say first, I don't think an actual autopsy was ever done...on a dummy, corpse or otherwise.
I was just referring to the use of the "dummys" weight on the AR only as a guide (hence the 136 lbs discrepancy issue), but the rest of the report specs were based on Michael's actual anatomy & physiology.
But even with that said, I still don't understand the impact of using a "dummy" would have on the hoax, unless it is to simply mock the media.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 27, 2011, 03:20:12 PM
If paramedics and UCLA doctors are in, it doesn't really matter what or who was in the ambulance. Could have been Michael himself, a dummy or a corpse or nothing, if they are all in what does it matter, they won't tell anyway.
But I don't believe it was MJ himself alive because I think he already left ...the big question for me is where he was on June 25th.
Ans why only Kai from all staff testified? Why they didn't ask the housekeepers what they saw or heard that day? Wasn't this important? I guess those people are not blind or deaf.
You are missing the important point Gina, the court is real and whatever was described/said over there, matters. Thus, it does matter whether MJ was in UCLA if doctors in hoax. Because hoax changes here from fooling people to having serious ground being temporarily absent for safety reasons.
IF it is a hoax for literally HOAXING, then NO ONE is in hoax and corpse was used that PERFECTLY looked like Michael to fool paramedics, doctors, coroner, authorities, even maybe some bodyguards and Murray.....
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 03:31:32 PM
I would still like to know where he was that day. Stalker fans saw him going into the house after midnight, nobody saw him leaving the house though, maybe he just vanished into thin air.
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 27, 2011, 03:35:11 PM
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 27, 2011, 03:38:25 PM
No, I was just trying to say that if we consider them all in the hoax - the paramedics and UCLA docs - it could have been anything in the ambulance, from MJ to nothing.
I would still like to know where he was that day. Stalker fans saw him going into the house after midnight, nobody saw him leaving the house though, maybe he just vanished into thin air.
Hi Gina. Do you remember of aircraft from the airport of Los Angeles who left in the morning?
We should consider it, TS.
If so, Michael was already far from LA.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 03:40:42 PM
No, I was just trying to say that if we consider them all in the hoax - the paramedics and UCLA docs - it could have been anything in the ambulance, from MJ to nothing.
I would still like to know where he was that day. Stalker fans saw him going into the house after midnight, nobody saw him leaving the house though, maybe he just vanished into thin air.
Hi Gina. Do you remember of aircraft from the airport of Los Angeles who left in the morning?
We should consider it, TS.
If so, Michael was already far from LA.
Of course I remember. And Jermaine said "airport" instead of hospital.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 03:41:21 PM
I still think that "nothing" in the ambulance or UCLA would be very, very risky. When the ambulance left Carolwood, the world was watching the events.
agree
Post by: scorpionchik on November 27, 2011, 03:42:21 PM
No, I was just trying to say that if we consider them all in the hoax - the paramedics and UCLA docs - it could have been anything in the ambulance, from MJ to nothing.
I would still like to know where he was that day. Stalker fans saw him going into the house after midnight, nobody saw him leaving the house though, maybe he just vanished into thin air.
Once again, IF DOCTORS, PARM. CORONER are IN hoax, it started from the moment Michael was revived in hospital. Then hoax changes here from play game to serious grounds of temporarily absence for safety reasons. Therefore, real Michael should have been in UCLA.
Or, they are not in hoax and corpse perfectly resembling MJ was used to fool all of them.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 03:45:41 PM
Stories from the faithful "gatekeeper" fans state that Michael had a ritual of stopping at the gates, and rolling down the window to greet the fans. Also at night, his "bedroom" window light would go off at a specified time each night, and on 6/24 it stayed on all night.
Reports have said that he did not do his usual routine of greeting the fans going from the Carolwood property to Staples Center nor upon returning to the Carolwood property that night 6/24.
So was he really even in the car that night upon return? and why the change in habit?
It was also expressed that there was increased security outside the gates that night (Also unusual)
I know there was a security tape played during the trial (I missed that day), but did they actually clearly show Michael on the property that night?
While I doubt Michael would leave his kids alone in the house...it does make me wonder who or what was brought in that night.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 03:46:40 PM
No, I was just trying to say that if we consider them all in the hoax - the paramedics and UCLA docs - it could have been anything in the ambulance, from MJ to nothing.
I would still like to know where he was that day. Stalker fans saw him going into the house after midnight, nobody saw him leaving the house though, maybe he just vanished into thin air.
Once again, IF DOCTORS, PARM. CORONER are IN hoax, it started from the moment Michael was revived in hospital. Then hoax changes here from play game to serious grounds of temporarily absence for safety reasons. Therefore, real Michael should have been in UCLA.
Or, they are not in hoax and corpse perfectly resembling MJ was used to fool all of them.
OK but I still consider the possibility that numbers do have a meaning because TMZ posted that article about Michael and nb. 7 out of the blue. Did they just figure it out by themselves or they were told about it? Anyway...that makes me still consider the numbers are important, so it had to be planned, but I'm not sure of anything.
Post by: MJEnjoyYourself on November 27, 2011, 03:50:45 PM
Due to the photo of the ambulance was made prior to 25J, Ben Evenstad only needed to "simulate" that he took the picture shown and play a role in the eyes of the people, and begin with the public spectacle.
This really does explain why it carried something (the dummy) from UCLA to the CORONER, and this also would explain the photos that were shown at trial, at UCLA and the autopsy, in which the alleged MJ's body had no belly button! (like a dummy)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 03:54:26 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 04:05:32 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 04:10:46 PM
Ok so I watched and Faheem says he was asked to stop the car for Michael to talk to the fans there, he says Michael spoke to his fans for maybe 60 seconds.
Ah, okay, Thank you Gina...(I missed both testimonies---the surveillance video and Faheem's, I need to watch those). The accounts I had heard of came mostly from LaToya's book (again more inconsistancies).
I wouldn't imagine Michael would leave his kids alone in the house and not return to Carolwood after the Staples center rehearsal. So it makes me wonder about why some fans are saying "one thing" and others saying something else as far as "seeing" Michael that night.
(http://serve.mysmiley.net/confused/confused0024.gif) (http://www.footballerpictures.co.uk)
I just thought maybe it would help figure out what left out of the house the next day.
Post by: Sarahli on November 27, 2011, 04:11:10 PM
Quote
Last but not least, here is a real good statement from bec, which she posted in my recent thread about the timing of the 911 call (12:20 or 12:21?). Keep this concept in mind, because it applies to far more than just the 911 call. “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.”
So I am thinking that they may have staged a scene, and with a "body", rather than with just nothing or them just reciting lines during the trial.
Anyway I can't wait for TS' next post! bounce/
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 27, 2011, 04:28:15 PM
So for me, the only option that makes sense is a corpse of a double. Thus, almost no one lied or was involved, only the family of Michael, Murray, two bodyguards and a few people. All others. paramedics, doctors' UCLA, coroner, really served the double dead and confused with Michael.
This theory is very mad and morbid. As Michael could explain it? It would be a big problem, would not it? pale/
But still, is the theory that makes sense. Michael helped a double, terminally ill. Murray hired (if this is a doctor) to care for him and Michael offered his house for him to spend his last days ... Aff!
But I can not believe that Michael lived in that house on Carolwood! /pull hair/
Post by: Jacaranda on November 27, 2011, 04:40:35 PM
snoopy are you sure, because I recall they said the stalker fans were there, like usual, and they saw MJ arriving home after midnight.
Did they though. Or did all they see were the cars returning to the residence, as expected, and assumed that he was in one of them.
tinted windows. They drove right in and MJ failed to have the car stop to say hi to the fans or whatever, as expected. according to the fans. Do i have that right or not? cant remember now.
They sure wern't expecting him NOT to return that night, coz they knew his routine. If the cars just drove in, they would have assumed he was in one, but doesn't mean he actually was.
Same goes for there not being many people outside his house the following morning.. could have been that the suv or whatever he usually travelled in left the house and went off somewhere, luring the stalker fans away. Or could be that he diliberately made his routine so that he would leave for rehearsals few hours after the time that this 'death scenario' would take place. So the stalker fans would know that he always would leave at say, 2 o'clock and wouldn't need to be hanging around outside a few hours previous to that.
If they had been there, there would have been hysteria. And that would have buggered up the whole scenario. The security would have had to have their attention on them instead of the task at hand.
If this was a real situation, in reality, that ambulance should have sped out those gates all the way to UCLA. But it didn't. The slowly backing out allowed the illusion of the 'money shot'.. but i believe it also allowed time for the security accompanying the ambulance to get in the cars ready to follow right behind. Ben and co too. If the ambulance had sped off, the gap between them would have been big allowing any other random vehicles to get in between. So when they arrive at UCLA the security are right there at the time the unloading takes place.
In reality, the ambulance should have sped away from them, and unloaded at UCLA immediately with no regard to whether or not security were there.
So security did need to be there to sheild/keep any random people away from the stretcher. So my opinon at this time would be it was a dummy. To have nothing on the stretcher seems far too risky, because only a slight gap inbetween security surrounding the stretcher would have shown that, and they were only gonna get one shot at this.
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 04:42:09 PM
Ok .. TS has not completely debunked the theory of double, but considering that this theory does not exist ...
So for me, the only option that makes sense is a corpse of a double. Thus, almost no one lied or was involved, only the family of Michael, Murray, two bodyguards and a few people. All others. paramedics, doctors' UCLA, coroner, really served the double dead and confused with Michael.
This theory is very mad and morbid. As Michael could explain it? It would be a big problem, would not it? pale/
But still, is the theory that makes sense. Michael helped a double, terminally ill. Murray hired (if this is a doctor) to care for him and Michael offered his house for him to spend his last days ... Aff!
But I can not believe that Michael lived in that house on Carolwood! /pull hair/
When/How did the double get on the Carolwood property? Or was it already at UCLA? Why?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 04:44:05 PM
Faheem testifies that MJ asked him to stop the car and that MJ spoke to the fans for a minute.snoopy are you sure, because I recall they said the stalker fans were there, like usual, and they saw MJ arriving home after midnight.
Did they though. Or did all they see were the cars returning to the residence, as expected, and assumed that he was in one of them.
tinted windows. They drove right in and MJ failed to have the car stop to say hi to the fans or whatever, as expected. according to the fans. Do i have that right or not? cant remember now.
Well now I don't know who's lying - Faheem or the fans who say MJ didn't stop??
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 27, 2011, 04:46:14 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 04:58:46 PM
Maybe the car didn't stop for the fans, because Michael was not in it?
Faheem testifies that MJ asked him to stop the car and that MJ spoke to the fans for a minute.snoopy are you sure, because I recall they said the stalker fans were there, like usual, and they saw MJ arriving home after midnight.
Did they though. Or did all they see were the cars returning to the residence, as expected, and assumed that he was in one of them.
tinted windows. They drove right in and MJ failed to have the car stop to say hi to the fans or whatever, as expected. according to the fans. Do i have that right or not? cant remember now.
Well now I don't know who's lying - Faheem or the fans who say MJ didn't stop??
Were the same girls from the Staples center there at Carolwood that night? :?
If Michael didn't go home who did? Was there someone with him they needed to keep secret? If he was in disguise at UCLA how did he leave Carolwood unnoticed?
...hmmmm, time to go digging through the old threads... bangbang
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 27, 2011, 05:06:19 PM
Maybe the car didn't stop for the fans, because Michael was not in it?
But why Faheem says MJ asked him to stop and he actually stopped and Michael spoke to the fans for a minute? He says that starting from 1:15 first and he says it again at 1:50
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdoKFfOsmAY&feature=related[/youtube]
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 27, 2011, 05:35:23 PM
God bless
And by the way, all of this would have been caught on security camera above the emergency doors..
I wonder whether the FBI made UCLA hand over the video so that it could not be sold to the media !!!! Or, should we be wondering why it has not been shown by now.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 27, 2011, 05:43:06 PM
Post by: paula-c on November 27, 2011, 05:50:42 PM
Where'd that pic come from??? Who took a pic at that angle?? I'm confused by that one. It seems that is inside the hospital, and yet the others are outside, so there was another photographer??? I am really confused by this!! And who are the people beside it, and who says it's "Michael's" stretcher?? I haven't seen this before ever....
Screenshot of a video very short,... and to vary you cannot see much
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 27, 2011, 06:04:39 PM
This is the one photo that shows the stretcher entering UCLA emergency....not that clear, but might help us decide what went to UCLA that day...The body does look alot bigger than MJ's....
God bless
And by the way, all of this would have been caught on security camera above the emergency doors..
I wonder whether the FBI made UCLA hand over the video so that it could not be sold to the media !!!! Or, should we be wondering why it has not been shown by now.
Well, looks like the "nothing went to UCLA" can be thrown in the trash bin. There is clearly something/someone on the stretcher.
Post by: Elsa on November 27, 2011, 06:36:11 PM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 27, 2011, 06:38:08 PM
So the reflection above the doors (and in the glass door) in the UCLA pictures don't bother anyone? Just me then - okay.
Do you think you could share what you mean instead of just asking why we are not bothered with it?
Post by: fordtocarr on November 27, 2011, 06:42:42 PM
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 27, 2011, 07:05:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4eJtRCVaaM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4eJtRCVaaM[/youtube]
Post by: bec on November 27, 2011, 07:11:12 PM
It solves the problem of the Paramedics and the 2 UCLA docs lying and how they can act so well. They're ONLY lying about the dead part. But do they ever say dead? Genuine question, I don't remember.
Risk is an ever present factor through out the events of 6/25/09. I do not accept that risk was a limiting factor that renders something impossible else MJ wouldn't have even attempted this hoax in the first place.
Everything everyone says becomes the truth when Live MJ does it all himself; there's just a lot of assumptions being made and spread as truth by the media and believed by his fans... "MJ was unresponsive" DOES NOT mean MJ was dead. It also can equally mean that MJ was ignoring the doctor. "MJ wanted his milk", self explanatory. "A gentleman not breathing", at the time was holding his breath. "The most loving thing you can do is share your bed", need I say more??? Think about it.
It's a movie with Live MJ. However, just like in TII and Smooth Criminal, there's a stunt double for a couple of scenes...Helicopter??.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 27, 2011, 07:22:11 PM
TS we need you, please.No, I was just trying to say that if we consider them all in the hoax - the paramedics and UCLA docs - it could have been anything in the ambulance, from MJ to nothing.
I would still like to know where he was that day. Stalker fans saw him going into the house after midnight, nobody saw him leaving the house though, maybe he just vanished into thin air.
Once again, IF DOCTORS, PARM. CORONER are IN hoax, it started from the moment Michael was revived in hospital. Then hoax changes here from play game to serious grounds of temporarily absence for safety reasons. Therefore, real Michael should have been in UCLA.
Or, they are not in hoax and corpse perfectly resembling MJ was used to fool all of them.
OK but I still consider the possibility that numbers do have a meaning because TMZ posted that article about Michael and nb. 7 out of the blue. Did they just figure it out by themselves or they were told about it? Anyway...that makes me still consider the numbers are important, so it had to be planned, but I'm not sure of anything.
What numbers honey? Where do you see 7? Using the correct principle of numerology, the day Michael "died" is 06/25/2009=6+25+29=60=6; Numerology of time- 12.21=1+2+2+1=6; death announcement time 2.26=2+2+6=10=1. Ambulance left Carolwood (if I am not mistaken) 12.26=1+2+2+6=11=1+1=2. This is the correct principle of numerology, adding up all numbers, not half of them.
I am not saying MJ did not plan or dreamed of escape, sure he did.
But I don't see this hoax follows his plan or numerology with that matter.
Post by: bec on November 27, 2011, 07:23:31 PM
...well that's just perfect isn't it. Isn't it???
By the time Jermaine said the King of Pop was dead... everyone in the world KNEW IT WAS TRUE (lol) because that's what the media had been reporting for the last 3 hours already.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 27, 2011, 07:24:53 PM
I'm sticking with Live MJ on the stretcher. TS failed to present any reasons as to why this could not be, he just said he was going to... and then proceeded to not.
Good job girl, that's what I am sayin.
Post by: bec on November 27, 2011, 07:26:20 PM
I'm sure MJ would like to hear your correct principle of numerology.
Post by: Andrea on November 27, 2011, 07:28:20 PM
Okay Andrea let me try it this way....
Here's how my twisted brain works.... :mrgreen:TS said.....
"Fourth, the stretcher went into UCLA feet first. If MJ sat up on the stretcher, he would have to be riding it backwards! That is possible, of course, especially if he was planning to sit up; therefore, I consider this only a minor point. Please carefully compare these pictures; the second picture (click the link) is a stretcher from the LAFD, just like the one that went into ULCA. You should be able to see three or four things which show that the stretcher went into UCLA feet first {http://tinyurl.com/7h7l9zy}."
It is very easy to see that the feet went first into UCLA. LAFD loads patients with the wheels first...the head is on the end with the wheels. You can see the wheels on the end of the stretcher...they came out last from the ambulance. Hence the feet went first, because they are not at the wheel end of the stretcher.
To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. [/u] Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).
Hence, the "stretcher" (notice not "Michael") went into the ER feet first, so the video clip of Michael "sitting up" is fake and was manipulated by (Evenstad?), plus TS states Micheal DID NOT go to the hospital in the ambulance....
So, that leaves me to understand that Michael was neither on the stretcher nor in the ambulance, correct?
So either;
1) He was no where near UCLA that day
or
2) He was already there/went there disguised as someone elseTS said:
"Fifth, there is one person standing in the doorway, who does not move with the stretcher (Heron). This means that unless the mystery face is that of someone walking with the stretcher on the far side of it, then EVERYONE walking with the stretcher is towards the camera (on the left side and head of it). This of course is possible, but it seems more reasonable that at least one person would be walking the stretcher on the far side (on the right side or foot of it)."
It possibly puts Michael in the vicinity (in disguise) or not there at all....which means there is either a corpse or dummy or nothing on that stretcher.
That's my deduction. :|
From the picture of the link TS provided when saying the stretcher was facing feet first was to show us just that - that the stretcher was facing feet first going into the hospital.
The only thing for me that TS has debunked (so far, in relation to this) is that MJ didn't sit up in the stretcher. That is not 2 or 3 strong points. I think the other theories will be debunked with 2-3 strong points (and there have already been good points made) and then what will be left? The theory that wasn't solidly debunked and in fact the first one to be "eliminated"...?
What doesn't sell me on the dummy or corpse theories (although if I had to think another way, it would be dummy and not a corpse) is that either of those options have the too many arguments against them - the main one being - who is it fooling - because of falsified reports from the paramedics, doctors and coroner. These documents show mistakes and a healthy main dying of accute propofol intoxication and no doctor signing the death certificate that day. If they had already agreed to do that (or sign off on falisified reports that had already been written) then you can see right away why no corpse is needed.
I agree with Souza that the "nothing" argument should be done now, going with what is seen in that photo still.
So that lives a dummy or live MJ. Somebody spotting either involves risk. Michael being there allows him first-hand control of his hoax, the one he's been planning for over 20 years.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 27, 2011, 07:28:59 PM
You are actually saying that Michael is Jesus, thus divine. If you think so, please show me with supporting scriptures that God intended to send his Son back to earth a second time in a human form. Not here, but in the thread I linked to above please.
i am quite keen to see such a scripture. as in my 25 years of studying the bible, i have never come across such a scripture.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 27, 2011, 07:30:35 PM
@scorpionchick, that's why I say you don't understand the numerology... because you don't understand it.
I'm sure MJ would like to hear your correct principle of numerology.
Instead of be sure that I "don't understand" IT , can you explain what is the principle of numerology then. I demonstrated it, what is your understandiing of numerology? Maybe there are different types of usage I am not aware of?
Indeed MJ would.
Post by: bec on November 27, 2011, 07:37:40 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 27, 2011, 07:39:38 PM
Fordtocarr it comes from this video...I had the still picture from it for over a year, but thought it had been discussed already.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4eJtRCVaaM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4eJtRCVaaM[/youtube]
I guess my x-ray vision isn't working today....I don't see it. :?
I can't tell if it's MJ, a dummy, a corpse or the invisible man! :roll:
How are we suppose to come to a conclusion with only these crumbs to work with? bangbang
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 27, 2011, 07:47:28 PM
@scorpionchick, that's why I say you don't understand the numerology... because you don't understand it.
I'm sure MJ would like to hear your correct principle of numerology.
Instead of be sure that I "don't understand" IT , can you explain what is the principle of numerology then. I demonstrated it, what is your understandiing of numerology? Maybe there are different types of usage I am not aware of?
Indeed MJ would.
a. The 911 call was in the first few seconds of 12:21
b. 12:21 to 2:26 is 2 hours and 5 minutes on June 25; 2 + 5 = 7
c. 1,221 + 226 = 1447; 1 + 4 + 4 + 7 = 16; 1 + 6 = 7
d. Memorial 7th day of 7th month, 7 years after will (and full moon)
e. 77 days from “death” to 9-9-09
f. 7 days from “burial” to 9-9-09 (and almost full moon)
g. THIS IS IT vowels = 999
h. HIS (HIStory and THIS IS IT) backwards = 1998
i. 1998 autograph; 1998 - 666 = 1332 / 4 = 333 + 666 = 999
j. 777 + 999 = 1776
k. All of these numbers (333, 666, 777, 999, 1221, 1776, 1998) are divisible by 111
l. 8 + 16 + 1977 = 2001; 6 + 25 + 2009 = 2040 (space intros for Elvis and MJ)
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/tiai_update_6_5.php
Post by: bec on November 27, 2011, 07:50:41 PM
@scorpionchick, that's why I say you don't understand the numerology... because you don't understand it.
I'm sure MJ would like to hear your correct principle of numerology.
Instead of be sure that I "don't understand" IT , can you explain what is the principle of numerology then. I demonstrated it, what is your understandiing of numerology? Maybe there are different types of usage I am not aware of?
Indeed MJ would.
Yes different usage you could call it: MJ's numerology; as explained by TS and as seen in MJ's work for the last 20-25 years. This is what you would understand if you bothered to read what TS wrote about it. But this too is off topic. You were asked that you read the whole thread and reviewed any TIAI threads or levels if you didn't understand something before commenting. You don't understand the numerology so you have no business commenting on it either way. The reason I know this for a fact because if you understood it, you would understand that it's only important because it matters to MJ and it indicates that HE planned all of these events. It proves he planned the whole thing. Ok? Numerology isn't important, recognizing that a crop circle isn't just dead corn stalks is half the battle, you follow?
You can have the last word with one final post on our off topic argument and then we both need to drop it. Deal, scorpionchick?
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 27, 2011, 08:17:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZyiUaQbOs&NR=1
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZyiUaQbOs&NR=1[/youtube]
Post by: PureLove on November 27, 2011, 08:49:46 PM
I agree with Souza that the "nothing" argument should be done now, going with what is seen in that photo still.
Agree with you guys. At least we could debunk the "nothing went to UCLA" theory.
Post by: TS_comments on November 27, 2011, 10:55:43 PM
Here is the main question from level 5: “… what if I say that the Illuminati found out about his hoax plans, and killed him according to the exact timing that he had planned? … Did the Illuminati outthink him, or did he outthink the Illuminati?” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19647.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19647.0)}.
All of the 7 levels have been about the “how’s” of the hoax. Did anyone realize that this question in level 5 was a BIG HINT? What if the Illuminati found out about his hoax plans in advance, and arranged to kill him at the very time and place when the world already thought he was dead (or on the brink of death)? That would be the perfect time and place to bump him off. How could you convince the world that he had been murdered AFTER he was already dead—that someone had indeed killed a dead man???
You can see how HARD it is to convince the public of his hoax plans now, even with all the ADDITIONAL evidence that we’ve had since 6-25-09 (which we would NOT have, if he had actually died on 6-25-09). Furthermore, even IF you could convince the public that he was killed on 6-25-09, while planning to fake his death, it may never end up in court—the Illuminati may well be powerful enough to keep it out of court. And to top it all off: even if it went to court, and one or more were convicted for killing MJ while he was trying to fake his death, EVEN THEN you would still have a dead MJ. This also shows why it would not be a living double: MJ would not intentionally put someone else in a target position like that.
So did the Illuminati outthink him? Or did he outthink them, AND FLY OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOURS BEFORE THE KICKOFF TIME? Just in case the answer to that question is not self-evident, Jermaine made it crystal clear in his “airport” slip/clue. But I’ll save the details on that for another post.
Post by: TS_comments on November 27, 2011, 11:03:31 PM
But like Andrea said, I don't agree that by itself means the Live MJ theory is debunked.
Agreed; I am just taking it one step at a time; the first step was to debunk the sitting up theory, that’s all.
Each option is fraught with risk so I don't think you can use "risk" as supportive evidence against anything."
Yes, each option has some degree of risk. But which one has the LEAST risk?
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 27, 2011, 11:11:46 PM
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Level%207/Puzzle2.jpg)
Here we are now, at level 7b. :geek:
We have only a few days left (until 11-29), but 7b and 7c should fall into place rather quickly—especially since I will be handing much of it out on a silver platter.
In 7a, we have debunked the multiple ambulance theories; and have shown that the ambulance videos were both taken at the same time on 6-25-09. Discussion on that subject is now closed on this thread, unless you have read all the previous posts on this thread and have something NEW to contribute; even then, you MUST fulfill ALL THREE of the conditions outlined already (and if you don’t know what they are, it’s because you have not read everything yet). If you go ahead and post without fulfilling these conditions, then expect that your post will be deleted. This is in the interest of keeping on topic; and to avoid cluttering this thread by going over the same ground again and again, merely for the sake of those who are too lazy to read what has already been thoroughly debunked.
One of the clearest ways to know when a theory has been irrefutably debunked, is when those who are still trying to defend the debunked theory have no EVIDENCE left to support the theory—and so they resort to any and all tactics OTHER than evidence, such as insinuating bad motives, or claims of secret evidence which can’t be shared, etc (notice that I have ALWAYS used evidence which is readily available on the internet). And these things have already showed up here in 7a, therefore anyone who REALLY wants the truth (and is not merely CLAIMING to want the truth) may know that all the video-taped ambulance events did occur at Carolwood on June 25, 2009.
It is important that we understand 7a correctly, because it’s a solid foundation upon which we can build to find the answer for the main question in 7b (what went to the hospital in the ambulance?). For example, since the video events really happened on 6-25-09, we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?
Remember this statement, which I made at the beginning of this thread: “Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax.”
For example, do you think that Kai Chase was in on it? If so, why? Would she NEED to be in on it, and what EVIDENCE is there that she is in on it? In fact, have you ever considered whether the CHILDREN were in on it initially (or just informed afterward)? And again, what EVIDENCE do you have on this?
Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.
Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6 (http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6)}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.
To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.
As we go through and continue to debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly): no doubt it will cause some to fear that MJ really died, and there is no hoax (and this could be the reason for some of the resistance displayed in 7a). It is true, as Jesus said, that those who build their faith upon the sand will have their house collapse when a storm comes through (see Matthew 7:24-27).
Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).
And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after. And if people who come to this forum after the BAM can see that we have a good solid coherent theory on the how’s, then they will be much more likely to believe that we also have the correct understanding of the why’s.
Hello TS-
I am working on 1 part of your suggestions. The bolded and enlarged part is what I will be focusing on for right now. I am starting with the least people in on it (0) and MJ dead, only changing what needs to be in order to pull off the hoax. In my theory the only 2 people who needed to be in on it (at the house) for this to work (in this phase) would be Murray and Alvarez. I wrote about Alberto here: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg373008#msg373008
Every other person at the house before the LAFD showed up didn't need to have a direct role (at that time) for the Illusion to be successful. I will talk about that in another comment.
I am adding videos of LAFD/Paramedic Senneff. He is stating what happened that day when he worked on Mr. Jackson. He is describing what he did and his fellow co-workers did that day. There is alot of info in the videos that will answer many questions that are being brought up in the last few pages. Heron that you spoke about in your other comment is a LAFD/Paramedic. He is described as the one who did the CPR on Mr. Jackson while in the room at the house. Everyone who arrived at the house from LAFD did their job as they would for any other patient. The only thing I am changing now is substituting a corpse/cadaver for alive MJ.
Blount intubated the corpse/cadaver and Senneff says it is difficult to intubate (he doesn't say if it is difficult on a dead or alive person) just that it is difficult. Maybe for him it is but, for Blount it was a breeze and Senneff was surprised. Some people have natural talent in areas that others do not.
Senneff says there was no heart activity on his machine that he hooked up to Mr. Jackson. That makes sense since the patient is already dead. No surprise there. There was no pulse on the patient and Murray just said that in order to move to the next phase of the hoax--the hospital.
IMO the 2 DR's who testified are not in on it. Cooper wanted to pronounce MJ dead based off of what Senneff told the nurse and the nurse relayed the info to her. Cooper never even saw MJ before she decided to call time of death. At Murray's urging the Paramedics decided to keep going in their efforts to save MJ. At the hospital it was Murray who urged the DR.'s to keep going and it is my belief that he finally said at the correct hoax time of death (2:26) ok you can call it. I have wrote about my theory regarding Murray being the influence on Cooper to call time of death in another thread. I have limited what I have wrote before to save time. I will post those at another time. typing/
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX5K0t-V8A8&feature=related
[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hid6kAA9s-g&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq0-Otk8zy0&feature=related[/youtube]
Post by: scorpionchik on November 27, 2011, 11:14:42 PM
@scorpionchick, that's why I say you don't understand the numerology... because you don't understand it.
I'm sure MJ would like to hear your correct principle of numerology.
Instead of be sure that I "don't understand" IT , can you explain what is the principle of numerology then. I demonstrated it, what is your understandiing of numerology? Maybe there are different types of usage I am not aware of?
Indeed MJ would.
a. The 911 call was in the first few seconds of 12:21
b. 12:21 to 2:26 is 2 hours and 5 minutes on June 25; 2 + 5 = 7
c. 1,221 + 226 = 1447; 1 + 4 + 4 + 7 = 16; 1 + 6 = 7
d. Memorial 7th day of 7th month, 7 years after will (and full moon)
e. 77 days from “death” to 9-9-09
f. 7 days from “burial” to 9-9-09 (and almost full moon)
g. THIS IS IT vowels = 999
h. HIS (HIStory and THIS IS IT) backwards = 1998
i. 1998 autograph; 1998 - 666 = 1332 / 4 = 333 + 666 = 999
j. 777 + 999 = 1776
k. All of these numbers (333, 666, 777, 999, 1221, 1776, 1998) are divisible by 111
l. 8 + 16 + 1977 = 2001; 6 + 25 + 2009 = 2040 (space intros for Elvis and MJ)
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/tiai_update_6_5.php
Certainly different type of numerology from what I know. Thank you Souza.
@Bec, I won't bother reading TS as detailed as you do. Sooner or later everything will be clear anyway.
BTW, as much as I read TS posts, I found many incosistencies.
Post by: TS_comments on November 27, 2011, 11:19:36 PM
BTW, as much as I read TS posts, I found many incosistencies.
Could you give one or two examples?
MANY people have tried to debunk what I have said, and so far EVERYONE who has attempted has failed. So if you can do it, you would be the very first one in more than two years of failed attempts!
Post by: Grace on November 27, 2011, 11:24:17 PM
I agree with Souza that the "nothing" argument should be done now, going with what is seen in that photo still.
Agree with you guys. At least we could debunk the "nothing went to UCLA" theory.
I said "nothing" in comparison with a corpse or a dummy.
I said "inflatable doll" could have done it as well (since it is strapped on the stretcher) under the right preconditions that we don't know.
In the light of "murder attempt" it does not make any sense at all that Michael himself went into lion's hell, does it?
It does also not make any sense that any other person alive would go into lion's hell.
A dummy does not fool any emergency staff at UCLA (except they are in), a corpse would do for some seconds - but then again: not a heated, unthawed or else treated one.
Narrowing the time window and adding pressure ("they have found out") does not make it more plausible that a corpse would be used either.
And if they would have found out a secret plan - why would they not find out the many publicly distributed clues of MJ still being alive and would not be chasing him around the globe - the more as his kids are a very prominent target now?
Would the kids be so happy if MJ would still be chased?
Post by: TS_comments on November 27, 2011, 11:28:32 PM
... At the hospital it was Murray who urged the DR.'s to keep going and it is my belief that he finally said at the correct hoax time of death (2:26) ok you can call it. I have wrote about my theory regarding Murray being the influence on Cooper to call time of death in another thread.
I might also point out that the 2:26 death time is the least important of all the numerology. So even IF the death had been called earlier, it would not change the major times/dates (12:21, 9-9-09, etc).
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 27, 2011, 11:46:44 PM
Quotea. The 911 call was in the first few seconds of 12:21
b. 12:21 to 2:26 is 2 hours and 5 minutes on June 25; 2 + 5 = 7
c. 1,221 + 226 = 1447; 1 + 4 + 4 + 7 = 16; 1 + 6 = 7
d. Memorial 7th day of 7th month, 7 years after will (and full moon)
e. 77 days from “death” to 9-9-09
f. 7 days from “burial” to 9-9-09 (and almost full moon)
g. THIS IS IT vowels = 999
h. HIS (HIStory and THIS IS IT) backwards = 1998
i. 1998 autograph; 1998 - 666 = 1332 / 4 = 333 + 666 = 999
j. 777 + 999 = 1776
k. All of these numbers (333, 666, 777, 999, 1221, 1776, 1998) are divisible by 111
l. 8 + 16 + 1977 = 2001; 6 + 25 + 2009 = 2040 (space intros for Elvis and MJ)
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/tiai_update_6_5.phpCertainly different type of numerology from what I know. Thank you Souza.
@Bec, I won't bother reading TS as detailed as you do. Sooner or later everything will be clear anyway.
BTW, as much as I read TS posts, I found many incosistencies.
@ scorpion, are you talking of TS inconsistencies in this thread or the numerology thread? either way if you see inconsistencies you should share them with other members. more eyes on a subject often bring clarity. perhaps some of the percieved inconsistencies could be debunked or on the flip side supported (with evidence and reasons why for the argument) by others.
if it is within the TIAI threads that you see inconsistancies with TS posts, definitely point it out. So that we can investigate your theory or doubt. (@ others - not saying investigate the authenticity of TS rather aspecific percieved inconsistancy) this is part of the investigation. you might have your question or doubt answered if you share the info.
@others - btw, for anyone who hasnt read it, the numerology thread is really worth reading. i didnt understand the concept (not a numbers person by any stretch of the imagination!) until i read that entire thread. a must read for a true hoaxer. if you then disagree with it after reading it, then at least you are making an informed decision. but to disagree with it without looking at it is IMO foolish, as with everything abt this hoax, things need to be looked at from all angles. not just our favourite angles. but that is just my personal opinion.
Post by: TS_comments on November 27, 2011, 11:59:48 PM
Also might check other hospitals, for comparison.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 28, 2011, 12:07:30 AM
BTW, as much as I read TS posts, I found many incosistencies.
Could you give one or two examples?
MANY people have tried to debunk what I have said, and so far EVERYONE who has attempted has failed. So if you can do it, you would be the very first one in more than two years of failed attempts!
I won't fail trust me and I have written about them in my previous posts. The problem is it will take time to recall or find my posts. I'll try to do that. There were inconsistencies otherwise I would never say so; I don't blame people in vain. Don't be scared be wrong, you are human, right?
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 28, 2011, 12:08:11 AM
but will look at some cardiology / hoispital links applicable to australia in my research.
naturally i know what flatline is. but just thought i would put the wiki description here as it contained additional info that i was not aware of that may be useful - considering chest compressions were being done at carolwood
A flatline is an electrical time sequence measurement that shows no activity and therefore when represented, shows a flat line instead of a moving one. It almost always refers to either a flatlined electrocardiogram, where the heart shows no electrical activity (asystole), or to a flat electroencephalogram, in which the brain shows no electrical activity (brain death). Both of these specific cases are involved in various definitions of death. Some consider one who has flatlined to be clinically dead, regardless of eventual resuscitation or lack thereof, whereas others insist that one is alive until the moment of brain death. This is mostly used in the medical industry when a person's pulse has stopped, indicating a flat line on the heart monitor.
When a patient displays a cardiac flatline, the treatment of choice is an injection of vasopressin (epinephrine and atropine are also possibilities) [1] and chest compressions. Successful resuscitation is generally unlikely and is inversely related to the length of time spent attempting resuscitation. Despite defibrillation commonly appearing on medical dramas as a remedy for asystole, it is usually not done when there is a total absence of electrical activity, as it could actually make it more difficult to restart the heart.
A flatline will also be generated if all leads are disconnected from the patient. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatline
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2011, 12:27:33 AM
Can anyone come up with the longest time that UCLA has worked a flat-lined patient, before calling the death?
Also might check other hospitals, for comparison.
I just found this......EDIT: although this is about people who lived!
http://www.cpr-etc.com/michael-jackson-cpr.html
UCLA Med Center Pioneers Lifesaving Technology - Could it Have Saved Michael Jackson?
When Michael Jackson went into cardiac arrest, rescuers took him to a place known for bringing the dead back to life. A world-renowned surgeon at the UCLA Medical Center has pioneered a way to revive people that most doctors would have long written off, including a woman whose heart had stopped for 2 1/2 hours.
Tested on a few dozen cardiac arrest patients, 80 percent survived. Usually, more than 80 percent perish.
"They took people who were basically dead, not all that different than Michael Jackson, and saved most of them," said Dr. Lance Becker, anemergency medicine specialist at the University of Pennsylvania and an American Heart Association spokesman.
Could Jackson, too, have been saved?
It's impossible to know. Doctors at the hospital worked on him for an hour. The UCLA expert, cardiothoracic surgeon Dr. Gerald Buckberg, said he was not personally involved in Jackson's treatment, and that too little is known about what preceded it.
"We have no idea when he died versus when he was found," Buckberg said in a telephone interview.
However, the results in other patients show that "the window is wide open to new thinking" about how long people can be successfully resuscitated after their hearts quit beating, Buckberg said. "We can salvage them way beyond the current time frames that are used. We've changed the concept of when the heart is dead permanently."
They call it "the Lazarus syndrome" for the man the Bible says Jesus raised from the dead.
Let's be clear: No one is saying that people long dead without medical attention can be revived. The lucky ones in Buckberg's study received quick help, and the reason they suffered cardiac arrest was known and could be fixed: blocked arteries causing a heart attack, in most cases.
Buckberg's method requires:
_Prompt CPR — rhythmic chest compressions — to maintain blood pressure until the patient gets to a hospital.
_Use of a heart-lung machine to keep blood and oxygen moving through the body while doctors remedy what caused the heart to quiver or stop in the first place, such as a drug overdose or a clogged artery.
_Special procedures and medicines to gradually restore blood and oxygen flow, so a sudden gush does not cause fresh damage.
Without all three elements, patients might suffer brain damage if they survive at all.
"You can save the heart and lose the brain," Buckberg explained.
UCLA and hospitals in Birmingham, Ala.; Ann Arbor, Mich.; and in Germany tested Buckberg's method on 34 patients who had been in cardiac arrest for an average of 72 minutes. All had failed resuscitation methods with standard CPR and defibrillation to try to shock their hearts back to beating.
Only seven died. Only two survivors were left with permanent neurological damage. Results were published in 2006 in the journal Resuscitation.
Dr. Constantine Athanasuleas (pronounced uh-than-uh-SOO'-lee-us), a surgeon at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, treated one man in the study who had been in cardiac arrest for about an hour and a half. The man's wife, a nurse, did CPR until a helicopter brought him to the hospital.
"He was flatlined," with a heart "as still as your dining room table," Athanasuleas said.
Doctors put him on a heart-lung machine, whisked him to the catheterization lab to see if he had artery blockages, then did bypass surgery to detour around them.
"The guy went home and was neurologically perfect" at least two years later, the doctor said.
Buckberg treated a woman who had been in cardiac arrest for 2 1/2 hours.
He would not send her to the operating room until her CPR and blood pressure could be maintained so further treatment could be attempted, he said.
Sadly, the woman survived all this but died several weeks later from an infection.
Buckberg has taken his work further in experiments with pigs in cardiac arrest. He deliberately deprived their brains of blood flow for half an hour, then used his resuscitation techniques to bring them back, with normal or near-normal function. Results presented at a heart association conference last fall stunned many, including Dr. Myron Weisfeldt, a cardiologist and chairman of medicine at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.
"He's doing extraordinary things. You almost don't believe the results that he got," Weisfeldt said of Buckberg. "Most of us carry around in our head that if somebody's brain is deprived of blood flow for 10 to 15 minutes that we're just not going to get them back to any useful function. His data suggest it's possible."
Doctors in Japan, Taiwan and elsewhere in Asia have tried approaches similar to Buckberg's with excellent results, said Becker, who is about to try it in Philadelphia.
"It takes training. It takes rethinking" to get doctors to adopt something this new, and funding for bigger studies to prove it works, Buckberg said
Post by: BeTheChange on November 28, 2011, 12:32:23 AM
-Oconee Medical Center: Worked on a 52-year-old male for 45 minutes and had called the death before a nurse felt a faint pulse.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/28871606/ns/today-today_people/t/call-him-officer-lazarus-cop-survives-flatlining-twice/ (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/28871606/ns/today-today_people/t/call-him-officer-lazarus-cop-survives-flatlining-twice/)
-On 24th October 2008, Dr Sean George, a consultant physician in a West Australian hospital, returned from the dead to amaze colleagues who had battled for almost 55 minutes to revive his lifeless heart.
http://www.seangeorge.com.au/ (http://www.seangeorge.com.au/)
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 28, 2011, 12:37:02 AM
also with compressions or defibing, if they cant start it in a certian amount of time brain damage is likely to occur. brain damage can set in anywhere between 6 and 15 minutes.
my friend actually works in triage nurse in the ER dept. Royal Melb hospital - so i do believe this information is credible.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 28, 2011, 12:41:02 AM
anyways, i am just posting the info i have been told. i am sure in freak instances death defies the odds and people do come back after flat lining for more than 15 mins..
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 12:41:27 AM
2 and 1/2 hours for one woman. Sadly she died 2 weeks later from complications.
Quote
They call it "the Lazarus syndrome" for the man the Bible says Jesus raised from the dead.http://www.cpr-etc.com/michael-jackson-cpr.html
Let's be clear: No one is saying that people long dead without medical attention can be revived. The lucky ones in Buckberg's study received quick help, and the reason they suffered cardiac arrest was known and could be fixed: blocked arteries causing a heart attack, in most cases.
Buckberg's method requires:
_Prompt CPR — rhythmic chest compressions — to maintain blood pressure until the patient gets to a hospital.
_Use of a heart-lung machine to keep blood and oxygen moving through the body while doctors remedy what caused the heart to quiver or stop in the first place, such as a drug overdose or a clogged artery.
_Special procedures and medicines to gradually restore blood and oxygen flow, so a sudden gush does not cause fresh damage.
Without all three elements, patients might suffer brain damage if they survive at all.
"You can save the heart and lose the brain," Buckberg explained.
UCLA and hospitals in Birmingham, Ala.; Ann Arbor, Mich.; and in Germany tested Buckberg's method on 34 patients who had been in cardiac arrest for an average of 72 minutes. All had failed resuscitation methods with standard CPR and defibrillation to try to shock their hearts back to beating.
Only seven died. Only two survivors were left with permanent neurological damage. Results were published in 2006 in the journal Resuscitation.
And etc etc.
But those are different circumstances. They weren't patients left at the scene for ~45 minutes prior to receiving ER care. They had known conditions and the causation of the cardiac arrest was correctable. They also received correct (ahem) CPR. This article seems to indicate that makes a difference. The patient would also have to be receiving this specialized rescessitation care as described.
By contrast, we supposedly have MJ at Carrolwood waiting for Murray to argue with Paramedics that he's not dead yet while he picks up Propofol bottles, before he's transported to the ER where they believe he is a healthy 50 year old male with unknown cause cardiac arrest.
We knew about this article in 2009 and it didn't seem relavent to the circumstances around MJ's death. It seems even less relevant now.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 28, 2011, 12:44:35 AM
Oh ok now you say it. This whole time I was under the impression that 2:26 was important because it made it into the list that Souza posted on the other page. It was actually the 2nd thing you wrote for the numerology aspect. This has been a long held belief and it was important enough for others as they have used that as a reason for Cooper to be in on it. fresse/... At the hospital it was Murray who urged the DR.'s to keep going and it is my belief that he finally said at the correct hoax time of death (2:26) ok you can call it. I have wrote about my theory regarding Murray being the influence on Cooper to call time of death in another thread.
I might also point out that the 2:26 death time is the least important of all the numerology. So even IF the death had been called earlier, it would not change the major times/dates (12:21, 9-9-09, etc).
Adi-right on! I found the same thing, you beat me in posting. ;)
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2011, 12:58:44 AM
Oh ok now you say it. This whole time I was under the impression that 2:26 was important because it made it into the list that Souza posted on the other page. It was actually the 2nd thing you wrote for the numerology aspect. This has been a long held belief and it was important enough for others as they have used that as a reason for Cooper to be in on it. fresse/... At the hospital it was Murray who urged the DR.'s to keep going and it is my belief that he finally said at the correct hoax time of death (2:26) ok you can call it. I have wrote about my theory regarding Murray being the influence on Cooper to call time of death in another thread.
I might also point out that the 2:26 death time is the least important of all the numerology. So even IF the death had been called earlier, it would not change the major times/dates (12:21, 9-9-09, etc).
Adi-right on! I found the same thing, you beat me in posting. ;)
;)
I think you, Bec and I were on the same wavelength at that moment (and webpage)! :)
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 01:27:27 AM
The non-believers think that this was just a random mistake (not a clue, not an accidental slip). However, notice that shortly before saying “airport”, he paused a bit; so there was ample time for him to collect his thoughts, and get the wording right.
Furthermore, if it really was just a mistake, how many words are there in the dictionary? What are the odds that a random mistake would produce the word “airport”? And what are the odds that the mistake happened precisely where the word “hospital” was supposed to be, and not during any one of the many other words during his interview?
I heard one non-believer try to explain it, by saying that Jermaine had recently arrived by plane; therefore, he had the “airport” on his mind when he was speaking. I think we can buy that excuse, as soon as we find examples of people in interviews accidentally using the word “restroom”—merely because they had used the restroom, shortly before their interview started.
So if the word “airport” from Jermaine was not a random mistake: it was either an accidental slip-up, or an intentional clue. Either way, it would be the truth. You don’t accidentally let a lie slip out, no, when you accidentally spill the beans—it is the truth. And if it was an intentional clue, then I think we should also accept it as truth (unless we have two or three very strong reasons which show that it is not the truth). If Jermaine was merely trying to indicate the hoax, but not trying to indicate that MJ went to the airport: then he could’ve easily said many other things, such as: “… way before he got out of the van, I mean way before he was taken out of the ambulance.”
If we can’t trust the hoax clues from the family, then we really don’t have much left. Yes, we would still have plenty of evidence that MJ himself planned and knew the exact day in advance; but the most reliable source of evidence that he succeeded in his plan, is the family. And if we can’t trust the “airport” clue from Jermaine, then how can we trust the “Illusionist” clue from La Toya—or any other hoax clues from the family? We should either join the non-believers (and dismiss the hoax clues from the family, they are ALL merely coincidence, etc), or else we should accept that the family is leading us to the truth.
When Jermaine said “way before”, this indicates that MJ left for the airport long before the ambulance went to the hospital. And for those who have been following the hoax from the beginning: you know that almost from the very first day, it was reported that MJ flew out of LAX on a private jet. So this “airport” belief did not get started from Jermaine’s statement; instead, Jermaine VERIFIED the truthfulness of MJ flying out of LAX.
So now I have given two strong points for MJ not going to the hospital. #1 It would be an unnecessary risk of MJ being bumped off, when the world thinks he’s already dead (even if this was a low risk, it was still a risk—and an unnecessary risk, at that). #2 Jermaine’s “airport” clue, plus the very early hoax reports, point to MJ going to the airport instead of the hospital. And I still have three more strong points on this, yet to come (total of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital).
Post by: simalves on November 28, 2011, 01:35:44 AM
Since the beginning I've been screaming about UCLA being the hospital that brings people back from the dead.
Thanks Adi for posting that article. When I first read that article two years ago, (I actually googled UCLA as soon as I heard MJ was taken to hospital) and thought that good he has gone to the best hospital in the world.
About revivals, I have an uncle and another distant uncle who were revived after 10 and 15 mins and both had no medical help inbetween or brain damage at all. Actually it has been proved that if you do chest compressions till you get the defib then the brain does not die, as it helps the blood circulation and the brain gets enough oxygen.
Quote
In 1960 the three investigators reported their findings on 20 cases of in-hospital cardiac arrest in JAMA.[7] Fourteen of the 20 patients (70%) survived and were discharged from the hospital. Many of the patients were in cardiac arrest as a result of anaesthesia. Three patients were documented to be in ventricular fibrillation. The duration of chest compression varied from less than 1 minute to 65 minutes. The JAMA article was very straightforward: chest compression buys time until the external defibrillator arrives on the scene. As the authors write in the article, "Anyone, anywhere, can now initiate cardiac resuscitative procedures. All that is needed is two hands". However, respiration received relatively little attention in the 1960 JAMA article. Many of the patients had been intubated and thus the need for mouth-to-mouth ventilation was not necessary. It was not long however, before this newly discovered technique was used in conjunction with the longer held techniques of artificial respiration.
Quote
Beck realized that ventricular fibrillation often occurred in hearts that were basically sound and he coined the phrase "Hearts too good to die." In 1947, Beck accomplished his first successful resuscitation of a 14-year-old boy using open chest massage and internal defibrillation with alternating current. The boy was being operated on for a severe congenital funnel chest. In all other respects the boy was normal. During the closure of the large incision in the chest, the pulse suddenly stopped and the blood pressure fell to zero. The boy was in cardiac arrest. Dr. Beck immediately reopened the chest and began manual heart massage. As he looked at and felt the heart, he realized that ventricular fibrillation was present. Massage was continued for 35 minutes at which time an electrocardiogram was taken that confirmed the presence of ventricular fibrillation. Another 10 minutes passed before the defibrillator was brought to the operating room. The first shock using electrode paddles placed directly on the sides of the heart was unsuccessful. Beck administered procaine amide, a medicine to stabilize the heart’s rhythm. Beck gave a second shock that wiped out the fibrillation. In a very few seconds a feeble, regular, and fast contraction of the heart occurred. The blood pressure rose from zero to 50 millimeters of mercury. Beck noted that the heartbeat remained regular and saw that the pressure slowly began to rise. Twenty minutes after the successful defibrillation, the chest wound was closed. By three hours, the blood pressure rose to a normal level, and the child awoke and was able to answer questions. The boy made a full recovery, with no neurological damage.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cardiopulmonary_resuscitation
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 01:41:56 AM
Oh ok now you say it. This whole time I was under the impression that 2:26 was important because it made it into the list that Souza posted on the other page. It was actually the 2nd thing you wrote for the numerology aspect. This has been a long held belief and it was important enough for others as they have used that as a reason for Cooper to be in on it. fresse/ ;)
Nobody would be in on it, MERELY to fulfill the numerology. However, those who were already in on it, were used to implement the numerology and timing. For example, coroner was needed to be in on it, so coroner was used to finalize autopsy on 9-9-09; but if coroner was not already in the hoax for other reasons, they would not be brought into the hoax just to put 9-9-09 on the report.
The numerology list (see below) was not given in order of importance, rather it was given in chronological order (sequence events happened) and/or logical order (similar concepts together, such as 1998). But 2:26 is least important because it is not divisible by 111; it does not point directly to end of the world (1221), it does not point to NWO upside down (999), it does not point to death date (2040), etc. However, it does help validate that 12:21 was planned (see b and c, below).
a. The 911 call was in the first few seconds of 12:21
b. 12:21 to 2:26 is 2 hours and 5 minutes on June 25; 2 + 5 = 7
c. 1,221 + 226 = 1447; 1 + 4 + 4 + 7 = 16; 1 + 6 = 7
d. Memorial 7th day of 7th month, 7 years after will (and full moon)
e. 77 days from “death” to 9-9-09
f. 7 days from “burial” to 9-9-09 (and almost full moon)
g. THIS IS IT vowels = 999
h. HIS (HIStory and THIS IS IT) backwards = 1998
i. 1998 autograph; 1998 - 666 = 1332 / 4 = 333 + 666 = 999
j. 777 + 999 = 1776
k. All of these numbers (333, 666, 777, 999, 1221, 1776, 1998) are divisible by 111
l. 8 + 16 + 1977 = 2001; 6 + 25 + 2009 = 2040 (space intros for Elvis and MJ)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 01:45:16 AM
I agreed about the airport thing all along this thread.
Now when it comes from you it's more convincing.
Waiting for more.
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 01:47:33 AM
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 01:52:30 AM
TS, no matter who the source is, their information is subject to individual examination, no? In other words, you have to take everything at face value regardless of who's spouting it. Whether it's the President or your next door neighbor... does what they are saying make sense and fit with the information we already have?
Agreed. That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.
Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 01:56:19 AM
I am already aware he said that he immediately recognized MJ.
Post by: wishingstar on November 28, 2011, 02:00:11 AM
Seven-hour battle to revive frozen boy
By Nick Britten
London
July 16, 2004
A two-year-old boy was brought back to life by doctors more than seven hours after he was discovered face down in a garden pond.
Joe Towey's heart stopped beating when he fell into the freezing water and the temperature was so cold his body "froze" - protecting his brain and giving doctors crucial time to get his heart pumping.
Giving him constant heart massage, they warmed him up slowly and after five hours detected a heartbeat. Two hours later he reached normal body temperature and has now made a full recovery.
Dr Nick Makwana, who led the resuscitation team, said: "It was remarkable, the sort of thing that reminds me why I do this job. I understand it is the longest time ever spent successfully resuscitating someone in this country."
Joe's apparently lifeless body was found in his garden pond in Birmingham by his mother, Jennifer Nock. She and Joe's father, Michael Towey, began heart massage and mouth-to-mouth before the paramedics arrived.
Joe was taken to hospital, where the long process of resuscitation began. On arrival, his body temperature had fallen from the normal 37.5 degrees to 26 degrees.
Doctors are obliged to continue working on a patient until the core temperature reaches 32 degrees. They then begin to assess brain damage.
For hours they slowly warmed Joe up by flushing warm water through organs such as his bladder and wrapping him in blankets, all the while taking turns to massage his heart.
Dr Makwana, a specialist registrar in pediatrics, said: "Joe wasn't breathing, he had no heartbeat and his pupils were not responding to light.
"We didn't give him a great chance of living. At the very least we thought he would have some degree of brain damage. For the whole seven hours we had to take it in turn to massage his heart.
"After around six hours his eyes started reacting to light, which came as a great surprise as it meant he might not have suffered severe brain damage. To hear he is completely recovered is fantastic."
Details of Joe's case emerged yesterday when his parents agreed to talk about it now that he had made a full recovery.
Mr Towey, 42, said Joe was "effectively dead" when they pulled him from the water on Boxing Day.
He was placed on a life-support machine for two weeks for further tests to assess any damage, and was kept in hospital for three more weeks.
Ms Nock, 28, said: "One morning he opened his eyes and looked up at Michael. You could tell he recognised him and from that moment we knew he would be fine."
- Telegraph
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/15/1089694486512.html?from=storylhs
*funny coincidence he looked up and saw Michael.........
Blessings Always
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 28, 2011, 02:05:26 AM
Quote
When Jermaine said “way before”, this indicates that MJ left for the airport long before the ambulance went to the hospital. And for those who have been following the hoax from the beginning: you know that almost from the very first day, it was reported that MJ flew out of LAX on a private jet. So this “airport” belief did not get started from Jermaine’s statement; instead, Jermaine VERIFIED the truthfulness of MJ flying out of LAX.
So now I have given two strong points for MJ not going to the hospital. #1 It would be an unnecessary risk of MJ being bumped off, when the world thinks he’s already dead (even if this was a low risk, it was still a risk—and an unnecessary risk, at that). #2 Jermaine’s “airport” clue, plus the very early hoax reports, point to MJ going to the airport instead of the hospital. And I still have two more strong points on this, yet to come (total of four reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital).
It would be an unnecessary risk of MJ being bumped off, when the world thinks he’s already dead....
TS....Do you mean that he could of been "bumped off" in the hospital/ambulance or at this home ???
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 02:08:28 AM
Quote
So did the Illuminati outthink him? Or did he outthink them, AND FLY OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOURS BEFORE THE KICKOFF TIME?
So these Illuminati - who are they? Or should I ask in this particular case of Michael Jackson - who are they?
I imagine they must be some people who could get close to Michael one way or another, like people from AEG maybe?? Or guards? Could they be the subject of a sting operation? Because I've seen no real actions to indicate at least partially the success of a sting operation. Or maybe it's another kind of sting than we think of? A sting without legal effects?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 02:11:36 AM
Does anyone have evidence/reasons supporting Blount being in on the hoax?
I am already aware he said that he immediately recognized MJ.
The fact that he seems to be a big liar in court doesn't count I suppose crash/.
I don't know, I'll have to watch his testimony again.
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 02:20:40 AM
The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
EXACTLY! It is coming together now, as I said it would. As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.
Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:
BINGO!
Someone suggested that the staff were sent away, so they would not take pictures. Really? In a life-and-death emergency, you are going to WAIT until the staff leaves, before taking MJ to the hospital, JUST SO NOBODY GETS A PICTURE????? In other words, it's okay if MJ dies before we get him to the hospital, just so long as nobody gets a picture in the process!!!???!!!
Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did. So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax. If MJ really died, this makes no sense.
So that gets rid of MJ in person on the stretcher.....
Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.
Post by: chappie on November 28, 2011, 02:22:08 AM
So did the Illuminati outthink him? Or did he outthink them, AND FLY OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOURS BEFORE THE KICKOFF TIME? Just in case the answer to that question is not self-evident, Jermaine made it crystal clear in his “airport” slip/clue. But I’ll save the details on that for another post.
Why ask the question if you gave the answer..... mj_bad/
I have a question for you TS....after all this time...
After all you are starting to give some answers so why not this one.... ;D
Is it correct that Dave Dave on LK was not the real Dave Dave....
But a guy that was supposed to be in a coffin at that time?
You dont have to send a making of vid or pic....
Just a simple YES or No would do it after 2 years....
lolol/
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 02:34:41 AM
So did the Illuminati outthink him? Or did he outthink them, AND FLY OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOURS BEFORE THE KICKOFF TIME? Just in case the answer to that question is not self-evident, Jermaine made it crystal clear in his “airport” slip/clue. But I’ll save the details on that for another post.
Why ask the question if you gave the answer.....
A thought question, rhetorical question.
I have a question for you TS....after all this time...
After all you are starting to give some answers so why not this one.... ;D
Is it correct that Dave Dave on LK was not the real Dave Dave....
But a guy that was supposed to be in a coffin at that time?
You dont have to send a making of vid or pic....
Just a simple YES or No would do it after 2 years....
I haven't touched this because I don't want people to accept what I say merely because I say it. I would have to get into a long debate over the evidence, which I do not think is worth the time.
I do agree, however, that it does not look like the real Dave Dave on LKL. Nevertheless, it could've been an MJ double. And I don't want to spend the time arguing over whether it was a double or the real MJ.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 28, 2011, 02:35:55 AM
abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline… says Alberto's fingerprints not on saline bags-have 2 wait 4 confirmation-knew something was wrong with his testimony
Carolwood june 25th 2009 was never roped off as crime scene for weeks/months following the apparent incident
OK...TS you got me thinking.....was it Alberto Alverez that was working for the illuminati, and maybe that's why he didn't do anything to help...????
Notice that he is the only one of the bodyguards on the witness stand. Then we have Murray saying he was just standing there, doing nothing.....waiting for him to die or something.???
Alvarez and Murrays girlfriend have the same surname....
Am I way off track here ??
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 02:37:08 AM
After rewatching Blounts testimony, tieing it together with Mr Jackson beeing far away by the time of ambuarrival, he must be in on it. The testimony says that he recognized Mr. Jackson, lying on the bed, not breathing with his unseeing eyes wide open = BIG LIE.
Post by: MJonmind on November 28, 2011, 02:37:46 AM
Quote
Does anyone have evidence/reasons supporting Blount being in on the hoax?
I am already aware he said that he immediately recognized MJ.
TS, you once said Star maps lady was simply not remembering, so maybe in Blounts case he just thinks he recognized MJ in hindsight—human pride and suggestibility.
And are you asking about how long UCLA has worked on a flatliner because rather than MJ, a real corpse was brought there that they really worked hard on?
And you said it could not be a living double, because MJ knew the Illuminati were planning on killing "him" that night/morning.
Quote
You can see how HARD it is to convince the public of his hoax plans now, even with all the ADDITIONAL evidence that we’ve had since 6-25-09 (which we would NOT have, if he had actually died on 6-25-09). Furthermore, even IF you could convince the public that he was killed on 6-25-09, while planning to fake his death, it may never end up in court—the Illuminati may well be powerful enough to keep it out of court. And to top it all off: even if it went to court, and one or more were convicted for killing MJ while he was trying to fake his death, EVEN THEN you would still have a dead MJ. This also shows why it would not be a living double: MJ would not intentionally put someone else in a target position like that.
I like how you're saying that all the hoax clues we've been getting are directly from MJ - via TMZ, family, friends, I'm hoping TS and Front.(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/file:///C:\Users\THEFAM~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif)
But I'm really confused about this beating MJ at his hoax plan by killing him there. Would they not know about LAX being closed and the jet with MJ in it taking off? Can they not get info on everything? They could have agents track him down anywhere around the globe if they wanted to. They could take the kids and threaten to harm them if MJ did turn himself over to them, but the children seem safe unless that is green screen shots we've been getting. Was it Tohme Tohme or Randy Phillips who entered the house on 25th morning, sent the staff away and then was it them who tried to kill MJ off then and there thinking he was carrying out his hoax with Murray and Alverez? This is so hard to wrap my puny brain around. Were the extra guards seen on that night sent by the FBI, MJ or the Illuminati?
If this is a chess game, the Illuminati forsaw MJ's next move, did MJ forsee their next move and act accordingly? Were both sides seeing their opponents several moves a head?
TS, in your TIAI redirects in 2009:
Nov. 28 (tomorrow lol!) you sent us to Acts 14:20, talking about Paul being stoned and left for dead (his enemies thought he was dead) but he got up and walked.
Dec. 8 you sent us to Daniel 6:22, where Daniel's enemies had thrown him in a lion's den, but God sent an angel to shut their mouths and he was not harmed, because he was INNOCENT.
http://lilwendy.wordpress.com/ (http://lilwendy.wordpress.com/)
Post by: lilwendy on November 28, 2011, 02:38:17 AM
143
Do you know what that means?
I love you!
Thank you for all you do, the time you take, and your commitment to this hoax, our understand and making an impact in our lives.
God bless you my friend.
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2011, 02:38:52 AM
Does anyone have evidence/reasons supporting Blount being in on the hoax?
I am already aware he said that he immediately recognized MJ.
Not sure this is of use but here is an interesting part from Blount's testimony. He talks about how he thought Michael was dead at the time and how the heart-monitor that Senneff put on MJ had flat-lined.
[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1QhGh726NkU [/youtube]
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 02:46:07 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 02:48:51 AM
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 02:54:10 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 02:55:24 AM
The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
EXACTLY! It is coming together now, as I said it would. As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:
BINGO!
So this means that the paramedics are in, or at least some of them, because if it was a real emergency they wouldn't have agreed to waste 42 minutes with no good reason.
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 02:57:19 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 03:00:12 AM
If he was in charge as an ambulance driver and frontpersonel in case of emergency he sure didn't do his job unless he was TOLD to back out slowly = SETUP
He was the driver, I've heard it on his testimony now, starting from 6:40
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=PL8B911E82F130FD13&v=QQXU2KE1j_k#![/youtube]
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 03:02:23 AM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 03:04:37 AM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 03:08:33 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 03:14:13 AM
Which by the way still doesn´t require a corpse. Best oppurtunity to kill him is after pronounciation. And since it´s a hoax, MJ would not be lying helpless anywhere on a stretcher, the best oppurtunity would be at his first hiding place, wherever that is.
And if Michael knew or suspected they found out about the hoax and numerology so they tried to kill him when he was "already" dead, he wouldn't go himself in the ambulance to risk to be murdered.
Sorry, I have a difficult time to "process" this murder within a murder thing crash/.
Post by: MJonmind on November 28, 2011, 03:16:51 AM
If the Illuminati knew MJ's whole plan they would know that real MJ was headed for the airport, then the killer was waiting at LAX to do it.
Or any one of the people in on the hoax that MJ trusted to do their part, could have been a "Judas" who was going to betray him, being paid money by the Illuminati. Did MJ know ahead of time (like Jesus) that there was a betrayer in his camp? So it would all depend on how complete was the hoax knowledge that the Illuminati had access to in foiling his plans. It seems to me though that MJ outsmarted them, and not the other way around, because TS verifies that MJ is alive and behind this hoax, unless TS is from Illuminati (which I don't believe errrr :? :lol: .)
If they were waiting for the staff to leave before bringing down the body, then they body must not have looked like MJ (corpse or nothing theory), because if a sheet covered him totally, then it tells everyone that he's already dead, but EMT's were supposedly working on him.
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 03:17:35 AM
Do you mean the HOAX, carefully planned, leaked out, then got real and turned into HOAX again because of MJ's foreseeing?
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 03:23:21 AM
If they were waiting for the staff to leave before bringing down the body, then they body must not have looked like MJ (corpse or nothing theory), because if a sheet covered him totally, then it tells everyone that he's already dead, but EMT's were supposedly working on him.
Could have been nothing. Dummy could have been used for the staged picture, and left at LAFD firestation. The dummy could have been already in the ambulance. One thing that I found odd is that we see them loading in a stretcher through the gate (shadow picture) because the ambulance was in front of the house, right in front of the steps, and I have a hard time believing you could have seen that through the gates if I look at the house on Google maps.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 28, 2011, 03:27:35 AM
I think the theory that involves the LEAST risk at this point is still, the corpse. Blount said he recognized MJ but that does not mean it was MJ. If he was told who the patient was, his brain would make that connection automatically believing who he saw, was who he was told it was. It's the way the mind works, he wouldn't have even questioned because why would he? Why would UCLA staff? If the doc's were also not in the hoax, they too would not question what they were being told; especially given the family confirmed who the "patient" was. 99.9999% of the world believes MJ's dead, so even if medical personnel didn't think the patient was Michael, it wouldn't make much of a difference. All the corpse had to have was fair skin, dark hair, and be thin. In fact, it could have resembled Fat Albert but no one would question would they? LOL
I do think that once the how's become clear, the why's are even clearer and vice versa. Michael faked his death for serious, life threatening reasons combined with the ARG entertainment aspects ofcourse; given those reasons a corpse being used is also serious thus, people would be able to grasp the idea much better in my opinion.
Maybe a dummy could fit into this but, i don't think so. And "nothing" would require more in on it.
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 03:38:30 AM
He was the driver when they arrived at Carlwood but I only assume he was also the driver when they left Carlwood.
Yes, but that is an incorrect assumption. He was riding in the back, on the way to UCLA.
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 03:39:43 AM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 03:44:49 AM
He was the driver when they arrived at Carlwood but I only assume he was also the driver when they left Carlwood.
Yes, but that is an incorrect assumption. He was riding in the back, on the way to UCLA.
Well if that's true, Blount doesn't have to be in, if a corpse was used, Senneff could have been driving. But in that case, why would Blount recognize the person as being MJ?
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 03:48:13 AM
Of course we could write this off by saying that she is in on the hoax, but why? Or if she is not in the hoax, why would she lie? This is not my only evidence; but it is one of them. And the testimony of people is usually considered acceptable evidence for court cases.
A casual fan might not be able to determine whether or not it was MJ on the stretcher; but she was no casual fan. Her purpose in following the ambulance to UCLA was to see what was or wasn’t in the stretcher; so it would be very hard to say that she merely FORGOT whether or not she saw MJ on the stretcher—this would NOT be something that you might forget (such as the time of day).
“She says, there were strange cars at Michael Jackson's mansion on the night of June 24th. She felt that something covert was taking place. ... She tells of how, at the hospital, she spoke with paramedic Blount, and how they both agreed that the person that was wheeled into the hospital was not Michael Jackson. Sharon is adamant that the patient wheeled into the emergency room was much shorter than Michael. She was very upset that paramedic Blount told a completely different story when he testified for the prosecution and detailed how he and his partner handled Michael's resuscitation efforts at Carolwood.”
{http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20842.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20842.0)}.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 03:52:24 AM
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 03:54:04 AM
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 03:56:54 AM
Okay, but why leave Blount in the dark if you are going to let him in before his testimony anyway? Or was it not MJ camp who ordered him to lie?
He could have been informed after the 'emergency' and got instructions for the testimony.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 28, 2011, 04:02:07 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 28, 2011, 04:05:33 AM
He was the driver when they arrived at Carlwood but I only assume he was also the driver when they left Carlwood.
Yes, but that is an incorrect assumption. He was riding in the back, on the way to UCLA.
Well if that's true, Blount doesn't have to be in, if a corpse was used, Senneff could have been driving. But in that case, why would Blount recognize the person as being MJ?
then whatever it was on the stretcher had to have looked like mj if blount says he recognised mj.... yet mj alive is debunked. doesnt make sense.... i am confused, is it just me?
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 04:06:57 AM
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 04:07:30 AM
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 04:17:45 AM
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 04:18:49 AM
I don't believe they would kill him according to this numerology, but I have never thought about the option of them trying after the world would already think he's dead. But that would mean AFTER he was pronounced dead.
No, they probably would not follow the 12:21 and 2:26; but we are NOT discussing here if the ACTUALLY got him (and since we have these numbers, then they did not get him). Instead, we are discussing how MJ would PLAN for things to go. They could take him out any time after the (supposedly) "not breathing" point in time, and the world would think that MJ was already dead (or very nearly so). The risk therefore did not start at 2:26, the risk started a couple of hours before that.
Also, I am not saying that MJ found out that they were planning to get him that day. Rather, I'm saying he knew that there was a general threat out there (and had been there for a long time); and IF someone in the hoax leaked his plans, it would be an unnecessary risk to go to the hospital (and also escape from the hospital, with a lot of people around--not all of whom you can trust).
Yes, there was also risk while getting away in a plane, and afterwards; but much less people needed to know about the specifics of the getaway, than the people in on the hoax. You can't eliminate all risks, but you can minimize them.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 04:24:38 AM
I don't believe they would kill him according to this numerology, but I have never thought about the option of them trying after the world would already think he's dead. But that would mean AFTER he was pronounced dead.
No, they probably would not follow the 12:21 and 2:26; but we are NOT discussing here if the ACTUALLY got him (and since we have these numbers, then they did not get him). Instead, we are discussing how MJ would PLAN for things to go. They could take him out any time after the (supposedly) "not breathing" point in time, and the world would think that MJ was already dead (or very nearly so). The risk therefore did not start at 2:26, the risk started a couple of hours before that.
Also, I am not saying that MJ found out that they were planning to get him that day. Rather, I'm saying he knew that there was a general threat out there (and had been there for a long time); and IF someone in the hoax leaked his plans, it would be an unnecessary risk to go to the hospital (and also escape from the hospital, with a lot of people around--not all of whom you can trust).
Yes, there was also risk while getting away in a plane, and afterwards; but much less people needed to know about the specifics of the getaway, than the people in on the hoax. You can't eliminate all risks, but you can minimize them.
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Post by: chappie on November 28, 2011, 04:31:38 AM
So did the Illuminati outthink him? Or did he outthink them, AND FLY OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOURS BEFORE THE KICKOFF TIME? Just in case the answer to that question is not self-evident, Jermaine made it crystal clear in his “airport” slip/clue. But I’ll save the details on that for another post.
Why ask the question if you gave the answer.....
A thought question, rhetorical question.I have a question for you TS....after all this time...
After all you are starting to give some answers so why not this one.... ;D
Is it correct that Dave Dave on LK was not the real Dave Dave....
But a guy that was supposed to be in a coffin at that time?
You dont have to send a making of vid or pic....
Just a simple YES or No would do it after 2 years....
I haven't touched this because I don't want people to accept what I say merely because I say it. I would have to get into a long debate over the evidence, which I do not think is worth the time.
I do agree, however, that it does not look like the real Dave Dave on LKL. Nevertheless, it could've been an MJ double. And I don't want to spend the time arguing over whether it was a double or the real MJ.
Hi TS
Thanks anyway.
It does not look....we dont have to debate about it...i totally agree on this one..... lolol/
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 04:46:25 AM
This is the one photo that shows the stretcher entering UCLA emergency....not that clear, but might help us decide what went to UCLA that day...The body does look alot bigger than MJ's....
God bless
And by the way, all of this would have been caught on security camera above the emergency doors..
I wonder whether the FBI made UCLA hand over the video so that it could not be sold to the media !!!! Or, should we be wondering why it has not been shown by now.
Well, looks like the "nothing went to UCLA" can be thrown in the trash bin. There is clearly something/someone on the stretcher.
Yes, that is one strong point against the nothing theory. And we also have the testimony of Sharon Sidney, so that is two strong points.
A third strong point is the nothing theory would require ALL of the paramedics in on the hoax (which nobody has offered even ONE strong point, that I know of, much less two or three). And it would also require ALL of the UCLA staff who worked the situation, to be in on it. Again, why have so many in on it?
Some have said that the area was restricted, so they could control who came into the room. While that is true, regarding the public and certain hospital staff; it is hard to know in advance every staff person who might be there that day, with authority to enter a restricted area (or at least thinks that they have authority, and decides to go in and "help out"). Randy said that there was a "... flurry of activity going on behind this curtain in the E -- um, emergency room ..." {33:49, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU)}.
Post by: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 04:54:39 AM
...
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
Post by: heartwarrior on November 28, 2011, 05:00:02 AM
Post by: VeryLittleSusie on November 28, 2011, 05:05:48 AM
I haven't touched this because I don't want people to accept what I say merely because I say it. I would have to get into a long debate over the evidence, which I do not think is worth the time.
I do agree, however, that it does not look like the real Dave Dave on LKL. Nevertheless, it could've been an MJ double. And I don't want to spend the time arguing over whether it was a double or the real MJ.
Well, that's a pity that you dont want to debate on this one. To be able to establish if DD was MJ or not on Larry King's Live, could have been crucial in our investigation. It could be the most exciting part of our adventure...
I also do not see a point in using an MJ double in this one... I would rather believe DD to be a dummy than a double... :)
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 28, 2011, 05:12:41 AM
According to the report, we have a patient dying of cancer with chest pains.....and the case is not considered an emergency. The patient had normal pulse rate, and oxygen levels, but flatlined shortly after the paramedics attended to him...
Why did we have an extra EMS 9 car on scene, only to be sent away later?? If it was an emergency at Carolwood, then they would have stayed...
Carolwood has another two entrances, which an ambulance could have easily snuck in through while no-one was looking......We do not have any photos at all of an ambulance arriving....even though 3 fans were outside and so was Chris Weiss....Strange ???
We have real or fake documentation proving the patient was still breathing until it got to UCLA....
these are the documents, once again.
Post by: loyalfan on November 28, 2011, 05:24:16 AM
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 28, 2011, 05:29:35 AM
The only problem that I have with the theory that someone else died in place of MJ, is getting someone to do it..
Who would die for him?? I mean is it even a possibility that he would even accept such an offer from someone...??? I don't think that's an option....Someone died, that looked like an asian man,
who resembled MJ....
So the ambulance transported the hospice patient earlier that day through a back entrance to Carolwood..???
/pull hair/ /pull hair/ /scream/ /scream/ /scream/ /scream/
I got it..........It was a clone made of him.... lol /white flag/ /white flag/
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdSTg9rMrfI&feature=related[/youtube]
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 28, 2011, 05:33:29 AM
here is a thought that is completely insane.....................but what the heck !!!!!!!!!!!!!! could the person trying to kill michael have been in the house...and was murdered......................no no now i see i am insane lol...................well never mind.......cant say we have not tried all ideas ha ha xxxx
Hmmmmmmmm....that's one avenue we haven't explored yet....but then again, anything is possible at this point... You know, I kinda think Alvarez has something fishy about him.....I think he was the one that betrayed MJ, and that's why he was terminated...the other bodyguards don't respect him anymore..
Post by: MJonmind on November 28, 2011, 05:39:17 AM
Okay so Sharon’s story convinces those who think Michael was murdered of some kind of covert sinister action. She is deliberately left for a few still seconds in Ben’s video so her testimony must be important for the hoax. She suggests on the live show that MJ is alive, feeding that idea. She confirms to us that the ambulance did arrive at the house, because we don’t see that part. The question is were the kidnappers working for MJ’s good or evil? Are they FBI agents taking him to the airport?
She certainly seems to know the family, even having Joe’s number, and saying she’s chatted with MJ numerous times. Could she be in on the hoax, carrying out this role of suggesting these things? But she does seem to be genuinely emotional and passionate as if she’s not acting.
TS, what about a bomb or sabotage of the plane?
Souza
Quote
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.Maybe that’s why we’ve had such a gamut of leads that seemed contradictory all these months—so much disinformation, false leads, so they won’t know what was the truth. I expect they would also read here, since this is the first hoax site.
2good2btrue, a clone? Like Dolly the sheep? :lol:
Lindsay Lohan still thought Alverez was a trustworthy bodyguard.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 28, 2011, 05:47:07 AM
here is a thought that is completely insane.....................but what the heck !!!!!!!!!!!!!! could the person trying to kill michael have been in the house...and was murdered......................no no now i see i am insane lol...................well never mind.......cant say we have not tried all ideas ha ha xxxx
Hmmmmmmmm....that's one avenue we haven't explored yet....but then again, anything is possible at this point... You know, I kinda think Alvarez has something fishy about him.....I think he was the one that betrayed MJ, and that's why he was terminated...the other bodyguards don't respect him anymore..
But MJ had this hoax planned for a long time and with all the numerology and set up etc, that just wouldn't work out.
Can anyone explain the photo of MJ on the gurney after he was pronounced dead, was that really done on the same day?
Post by: chappie on November 28, 2011, 05:50:38 AM
here is a thought that is completely insane.....................but what the heck !!!!!!!!!!!!!! could the person trying to kill michael have been in the house...and was murdered......................no no now i see i am insane lol...................well never mind.......cant say we have not tried all ideas ha ha xxxx
Well nothing suprises me anymore..... /scream/
But with a little help of a bottle propofol anything is possible....:)..
Post by: MJonmind on November 28, 2011, 06:04:45 AM
What is this body, had a prosthetic mask on....I mean one which really looks real ???..
The only problem that I have with the theory that someone else died in place of MJ, is getting someone to do it..
Who would die for him?? I mean is it even a possibility that he would even accept such an offer from someone...??? I don't think that's an option....Someone died, that looked like an asian man,
who resembled MJ....
So the ambulance transported the hospice patient earlier that day through a back entrance to Carolwood..???
/pull hair/ /pull hair/ /scream/ /scream/ /scream/
I got it..........It was a clone made of him....like "Frankenstein" lol /white flag/ /white flag/
Could this substitute have been someone on life support, a vegetable, with "no brain". If the family gives consent to UCLA for medical purposes, or they sign saying which day they want life support stopped--June 25, 2009. The propofol was injected along with Lorazapam, he stopped breathing. Ambulance was called and on and on right up to pronou_ced dead. If Sharon has already said the patient didn't look like MJ, then he doesn't have to. Sounds like nobdy wants to listen to her complaints--calling her crazy. Group think--everyone finally just follows orders because they don't want to be called an idiot or delusional.
Vegetable takes on new meaning!
And MJ certainly HAS been "starting something"! :lol:
Quote
[1st Verse]
I Took My Baby To The Doctor
With A Fever, But Nothing He Found
By The Time This Hit The Street
They Said She Had A Breakdown
Someone's Always Tryin' To Start My Baby Cryin'
Talkin', Squealin', Lyin'
Sayin' You Just Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
I Said You Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Startin' Somethin'
I Said You Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Startin' Somethin'
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck In The Middle (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Pain Is Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck In The Middle (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Pain Is Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
You're A Vegetable, You're A Vegetable
Still They Hate You, You're A Vegetable
You're Just A Buffet, You're A Vegetable
They Eat Off Of You, You're A Vegetable
Post by: wishingstar on November 28, 2011, 07:37:01 AM
Can I just add again, the paramedics report.....and what is really wrong with it...
According to the report, we have a patient dying of cancer with chest pains.....and the case is not considered an emergency. The patient had normal pulse rate, and oxygen levels, but flatlined shortly after the paramedics attended to him...
Why did we have an extra EMS 9 car on scene, only to be sent away later?? If it was an emergency at Carolwood, then they would have stayed...
Carolwood has another two entrances, which an ambulance could have easily snuck in through while no-one was looking......We do not have any photos at all of an ambulance arriving....even though 3 fans were outside and so was Chris Weiss....Strange ???
We have real or fake documentation proving the patient was still breathing until it got to UCLA....
these are the documents, once again.
hey 2good......
I found this site just last night. I am not sure if it's from our Lady Medic that posted here...but there is some really good stuff as far as explanations of what is what...perhaps something will stand out to you:
http://lady-medic.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html
Blessings
PS> here is some information I posted a long time ago about the paramedic's report too....it's not filled out correctly per the LAFD handbook:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19392.msg335730#msg335730
Post by: BeTheChange on November 28, 2011, 08:18:23 AM
@WishingStar...good reminder of the incorrectly filled out paramedic report. If I remember correctly, it was Senneff that filled it out? Could that 'hint' towards him being in on it?
I had thought that Blount WAS in on it because he was the one actually working the patient...but it looks like some of TS' recent posts change some things around, at least in my brain. By my count, even without TS' filling in ALL the blanks (yet) in debunking the possibilities...we can eliminate the following: 1) Live MJ, 2) living double, 3) nothing, and 4) dummy. All we're left with is a real corpse errrr...my least favorable scenario. Perhaps there are at least 3 things that point to ALL the paramedics being in on it, although I can't seem to come up with 3...but if they were NOT in on it, then the dummy theory and the 'nothing' theory fly out the window....so, that would mean someone died that day :cry:
There's no way that MJ would agree to have someone killed just so he has a body for his hoax lol...and I highly doubt that MJ would agree to have a healthy male give up his life for his hoax, even if all they wanted was their family taken care of after their 'sacrifice'. So, that leads me to believe it was someone who was terminally ill (hospice patient theory) and who agreed, or his family agreed, to have his 'body' used in the hoax. Thinking back to some of TS' posts, he DID kinda hint towards this possibility and I recall some members not 'liking' the theory because of ethical reasons. Knowing what we do know about MJ and IF this is what actually took place, I'm just about positive that he wasn't jumping for joy at the 'opportunity' and that all ethical dilemmas were sorted out beforehand.
Unless, as has been discussed many times in the past, it was simply a donated 'body' that had been kept frozen (the heated room might support that)...but I remember there being a few things 'wrong' with this theory (who the heck knows at this point :?).
Alright...where do we go from here? November 29 is fast approaching and we haven't wrapped up 'b' in any 'solid-type' fashion and we still have 'c' to get through smiley_spider. Time's a ticking TS...perhaps your presence today and tonight will help us reach the destination before the whistle blows.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 28, 2011, 08:25:42 AM
Well, if the FBI is in, everything can be ...
There is only one question ... If Michael's life was in danger so he would have left their children?
If people who wanted to kill him discovered their plans, which is easy if they enter this forum, could not they threaten his children and his family, making Michael return sooner than expected?
Post by: simalves on November 28, 2011, 08:27:25 AM
This is the one photo that shows the stretcher entering UCLA emergency....not that clear, but might help us decide what went to UCLA that day...The body does look alot bigger than MJ's....
God bless
And by the way, all of this would have been caught on security camera above the emergency doors..
I wonder whether the FBI made UCLA hand over the video so that it could not be sold to the media !!!! Or, should we be wondering why it has not been shown by now.
Well, looks like the "nothing went to UCLA" can be thrown in the trash bin. There is clearly something/someone on the stretcher.
Yes, that is one strong point against the nothing theory. And we also have the testimony of Sharon Sidney, so that is two strong points.
A third strong point is the nothing theory would require ALL of the paramedics in on the hoax (which nobody has offered even ONE strong point, that I know of, much less two or three). And it would also require ALL of the UCLA staff who worked the situation, to be in on it. Again, why have so many in on it?
Some have said that the area was restricted, so they could control who came into the room. While that is true, regarding the public and certain hospital staff; it is hard to know in advance every staff person who might be there that day, with authority to enter a restricted area (or at least thinks that they have authority, and decides to go in and "help out"). Randy said that there was a "... flurry of activity going on behind this curtain in the E -- um, emergency room ..." {33:49, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU)}.
But since this whole thing asks us to look at the movie "The Illusionist" then was it just a graphic image that went to the hospital. The thing about TI(The Illusionist) or TII (This is Illusion) is that the magician was actually not present that day of his show, it was just a projection of him. So did the projection move from the bed to the floor, to the bed, and Murray could not do CPR because there was nothing to do CPR on. But then a few people would have to be in on it. The projection could also give the wrong body size at some moments.
So was wondering about TII - I have often thought that the doubles people talk about are actually Michael projections that sometimes get skewed and so the face/body is bigger/smaller. Remember that one pic of him looking at himself on stage? And on the days he was present he made sure that people knew he was around, by actually hugging each and every one of the dancers.
So Timor Steffens commenting that they could never hear Michael approach them, he just appeared at times but then later he started smelling Michael before he could have seen him, could easily be achieved by just spraying the area before the illusion appeared. That would have been perfect practice for whatever Michael planned.
Post by: simalves on November 28, 2011, 08:30:30 AM
It seems that the correct choice will be a corpse?
Well, if the FBI is in, everything can be ...
There is only one question ... If Michael's life was in danger so he would have left their children?
If people who wanted to kill him discovered their plans, which is easy if they enter this forum, could not they threaten his children and his family, making Michael return sooner than expected?
Anna at times I did wonder if this hoax discussion is to keep the Illuminati occupied, as in trying to find him and so the children are safe and can live their normal lives. It would be the perfect sacrifice, but it would also be difficult for Michael to return.
Post by: simalves on November 28, 2011, 08:34:29 AM
Post by: fordtocarr on November 28, 2011, 09:05:12 AM
Wow...the things you miss when you finally get some sleep!p
@WishingStar...good reminder of the incorrectly filled out paramedic report. If I remember correctly, it was Senneff that filled it out? Could that 'hint' towards him being in on it?
I had thought that Blount WAS in on it because he was the one actually working the patient...but it looks like some of TS' recent posts change some things around, at least in my brain. By my count, even without TS' filling in ALL the blanks (yet) in debunking the possibilities...we can eliminate the following: 1) Live MJ, 2) living double, 3) nothing, and 4) dummy.
I just cannot believe that Michael used a corpse...unless it was NOT in his hands and the FBI ushered Michael out of the scene whenever, and took over and THEY used a corpse... but, I am wondering as it seems so much of this speculating is simply a play on words, if it wasn't a LIVING DOUBLE, but one that was dead....as, they killed the double. There seems to be SOMETHING OR SOMEONE that went to the hospital, so to offer proof is just not feasible as we were not there, and we have not seem WHAT when in there. But, by eliminating the options, we can just offer a guess. That is what I'm doing, as there are not much left we KNOW of to try to make the piece fit. By saying this it does mean that there was a crime and not just a movie though. And that much more involvement by authorities was used. Also, I'd say that as none of that element has been brought to view or trials, that Michael would still have to remain hidden. :(
I'm seriously racking my brain to figure WHAT could've gone in there if it was nothing, or Michael, or a dummy, or a LIVING double, because we KNOW it wasn't a dead Michael.
All we're left with is a real corpse errrr...my least favorable scenario. Perhaps there are at least 3 things that point to ALL the paramedics being in on it, although I can't seem to come up with 3...but if they were NOT in on it, then the dummy theory and the 'nothing' theory fly out the window....so, that would mean someone died that day :cry:
There's no way that MJ would agree to have someone killed just so he has a body for his hoax lol...and I highly doubt that MJ would agree to have a healthy male give up his life for his hoax, even if all they wanted was their family taken care of after their 'sacrifice'. So, that leads me to believe it was someone who was terminally ill (hospice patient theory) and who agreed, or his family agreed, to have his 'body' used in the hoax. Thinking back to some of TS' posts, he DID kinda hint towards this possibility and I recall some members not 'liking' the theory because of ethical reasons. Knowing what we do know about MJ and IF this is what actually took place, I'm just about positive that he wasn't jumping for joy at the 'opportunity' and that all ethical dilemmas were sorted out beforehand.
Unless, as has been discussed many times in the past, it was simply a donated 'body' that had been kept frozen (the heated room might support that)...but I remember there being a few things 'wrong' with this theory (who the heck knows at this point :?).
Alright...where do we go from here? November 29 is fast approaching and we haven't wrapped up 'b' in any 'solid-type' fashion and we still have 'c' to get through smiley_spider. Time's a ticking TS...perhaps your presence today and tonight will help us reach the destination before the whistle blows.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: paula-c on November 28, 2011, 09:10:54 AM
Jermaine said: “He was very, very healthy but Michael was not with us, WAY BEFORE he arrived to the airport. ... I mean way before he arrived to the hospital. ... they were always after him, and he felt that his life was going to be taken.” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OOwLcE_6Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OOwLcE_6Q)}.
The non-believers think that this was just a random mistake (not a clue, not an accidental slip). However, notice that shortly before saying “airport”, he paused a bit; so there was ample time for him to collect his thoughts, and get the wording right.
Furthermore, if it really was just a mistake, how many words are there in the dictionary? What are the odds that a random mistake would produce the word “airport”? And what are the odds that the mistake happened precisely where the word “hospital” was supposed to be, and not during any one of the many other words during his interview?
I heard one non-believer try to explain it, by saying that Jermaine had recently arrived by plane; therefore, he had the “airport” on his mind when he was speaking. I think we can buy that excuse, as soon as we find examples of people in interviews accidentally using the word “restroom”—merely because they had used the restroom, shortly before their interview started.
So if the word “airport” from Jermaine was not a random mistake: it was either an accidental slip-up, or an intentional clue. Either way, it would be the truth. You don’t accidentally let a lie slip out, no, when you accidentally spill the beans—it is the truth. And if it was an intentional clue, then I think we should also accept it as truth (unless we have two or three very strong reasons which show that it is not the truth). If Jermaine was merely trying to indicate the hoax, but not trying to indicate that MJ went to the airport: then he could’ve easily said many other things, such as: “… way before he got out of the van, I mean way before he was taken out of the ambulance.”
If we can’t trust the hoax clues from the family, then we really don’t have much left. Yes, we would still have plenty of evidence that MJ himself planned and knew the exact day in advance; but the most reliable source of evidence that he succeeded in his plan, is the family. And if we can’t trust the “airport” clue from Jermaine, then how can we trust the “Illusionist” clue from La Toya—or any other hoax clues from the family? We should either join the non-believers (and dismiss the hoax clues from the family, they are ALL merely coincidence, etc), or else we should accept that the family is leading us to the truth.
When Jermaine said “way before”, this indicates that MJ left for the airport long before the ambulance went to the hospital. And for those who have been following the hoax from the beginning: you know that almost from the very first day, it was reported that MJ flew out of LAX on a private jet. So this “airport” belief did not get started from Jermaine’s statement; instead, Jermaine VERIFIED the truthfulness of MJ flying out of LAX.
So now I have given two strong points for MJ not going to the hospital. #1 It would be an unnecessary risk of MJ being bumped off, when the world thinks he’s already dead (even if this was a low risk, it was still a risk—and an unnecessary risk, at that). #2 Jermaine’s “airport” clue, plus the very early hoax reports, point to MJ going to the airport instead of the hospital. And I still have three more strong points on this, yet to come (total of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital).
Nobody had yet i agreed to that Michael go to the hospital. And what TS says is true, then we must stop listening to what they say Jermaine and La Toya, stop looking at the accounts of twitter in Paris and see if the spelling mistakes are like those of Front, but in general do not look any account of Twitter of the family and begin thinking as a no believer.
Post by: Sarahli on November 28, 2011, 09:17:33 AM
Quote
She tells of how, at the hospital, she spoke with paramedic Blount, and how they both agreed that the person that was wheeled into the hospital was not Michael Jackson.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html
So Blount agreed with her that it wasn't Michael Jackson at the hospital, but we know he testified the contrary during the trial.
Why?? Why would he tell her that it wasn't Michael??? suspicious//
I do not think that the paramedics who worked on the "body" can be fooled by a corpse. They are real professionals and would notice that quite quickly in my opinion.
Post by: Grace on November 28, 2011, 09:25:25 AM
This may be or become an issue once in a while ...
Post by: Sarahli on November 28, 2011, 09:34:40 AM
"A liar will not be believed, even when he speaks the truth."
This may be or become an issue once in a while ...
Yes probably!! lolol/
When I think more about it and if we consider the court to be a kangaroo court I will say that Blount told da troot to Sharon Sydney and lied during the trial! geek/
About the Illuminati they could have also seen this "emergency" as an opportunity to make sure that Michael would not get away from it, as he was seen as a threat to them. So even if they didn't figure out about the plan, another possible risk is that they can act on the moment. So it's safer again for Michael to not be at UCLA.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 28, 2011, 09:40:37 AM
Can anyone come up with the longest time that UCLA has worked a flat-lined patient, before calling the death?
Also might check other hospitals, for comparison.
From the way you have formed your question, I'm lead to wonder a few things, especially since you are now talking about all the various things that could've gone into ucla.
I am wondering if perhaps, this all was really done. If there Michael was really "dead" when he went to ucla, thus none of the other options. BUT, as you mention flatlining for a long time, say that is all these efforts, Michael was brought back...and taken into hiding..or another hospital for protection. Who knows what his health would've been after all that.
Just a thought....
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 09:43:16 AM
If Blout was not driving then he must be in on the hoax because otherwise would he not pipe up and say the pic is fake? Those are clearly 2 white guys in the back.
Post by: Sarahli on November 28, 2011, 10:04:58 AM
TS says Blout was not driving?
If Blout was not driving then he must be in on the hoax because otherwise would he not pipe up and say the pic is fake? Those are clearly 2 white guys in the back.
Yes indeed Blount was not driving, in his testimony he said he was placed towards the head and I remember he talked about what Murray was saying on the phone. Good point with the picture, it's clear he would notice it's not one of his arms.
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 10:16:00 AM
So we can rule out "nothing", TS wants us to rule out live MJ in favour of him going to the airport based on the unexplained flight out of LAX and Jermaine's comments. I remember I had done a post (that then turned into a re-direct) about the possibility of Michael jetting out, perhaps to Bahrain, as one of the places MJ was hiding out. Whether that re-direct was implying MJ flew out that morning (or before) or that Bahrain was a hide out for a while was not determined.
The against live MJ arguments make sense but still seem based mostly on assumption in my opinion (but keep in mind that my mind is overloaded right now from so much reading). While I have lately favored this theory, it's hard to "prove" that the Illuminati had foreknowledge of the hoax and managed to infiltrate somehow. If Michael's ORIGINAL plan was NOT to go to the hospital, maybe he changed it to going to the hospital and sent off the jet anyways (assuming it was a jet for him).
I have to admit that I just plain don't like the corpse theory and it seems unnecessary if it was used to say, fool one person (if Blount was NOT in on it). Delaying the ambulance from leaving Carolwood so some employees can leave first also suggests that ALL the paramedics were in on it and no need for a dead body becoming deader by the second. Using a dummy or live MJ could cause a delay either way, to make sure any household employees who are not in on it don't see something.
I have to think some more...
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 28, 2011, 10:18:27 AM
If anyone was inside the helicopter was someone that came out of UCLA, right? Considering that the scene was recorded in real time, of course.
A double posing like Michael dead confirms the testimony of Sharon too! errrr
Post by: loyalfan on November 28, 2011, 11:18:28 AM
Post by: curls on November 28, 2011, 11:27:33 AM
Post by: Shining light on November 28, 2011, 11:42:25 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 12:11:20 PM
Now I'm not so sure about it anymore.The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
EXACTLY! It is coming together now, as I said it would. As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:
BINGO!
So this means that the paramedics are in, or at least some of them, because if it was a real emergency they wouldn't have agreed to waste 42 minutes with no good reason.
I think that at least for me there is enough proof that Blount is in.
1. He recognized MJ.
2. Thanks to TS who linked us to Sharon's statements, now we know Blount changed his initial story to her, testifying different in court.
3. Like bec said, he would have spoken about the ambulance photo being fake if he was not in.
But I am not sure all the paramedics are in because I think that maybe there was another reason for why they delayed the leaving from Carlwood, this reason being if the patient was already dead, why hurry anyway? But in this case it means that security and Murray somehow managed to delay them until all staff was gone, but it seems risky to me though, I mean what if security and Murray couldn't have had the paramedics delayed only because they wanted to delay them?
And if there was something to hide from the staff, wasn't the same thing needed to be hidden from paramedics? So they must be in.
But I am not sure if the paramedics or some of them were in from the beginning or there was an attempt to fool them with a corpse and because with Blount it didn't work they had to take them in.
Yet, as none of them denied the ambulance photo, maybe they are all in from the beginning.
But if there was something to hide from the staff, paramedics must be in.
It's confusing if they are all in or not. According to the answer of this question we can have a corpse or a dummy.
Post by: chappie on November 28, 2011, 12:15:41 PM
FRONT seats and BACK seats and perhaps even a TS seat.
Looks more like a movie drive-in(g) ambulance to me.....
Popcorn and a milkshake Propofol guys?
Sit back and enjoy the illusionist ride......
/cook/
Post by: BeTheChange on November 28, 2011, 12:21:05 PM
But it does fulfill the keeping it 'realistic' point. IF there was a corpse that was somehow in the vicinity of looking kinda MJ-like (i.e. you couldn't have a corpse that weighed 200 lbs, etc)...then all recollections (testimonies) wouldn't need to be fully scripted and the amount of people in on it kept to a minimum. The paramedics not in on it would have really worked on a body, same with any UCLA docs that weren't in on it....as well as covering the risk of anyone not in on it catching a glimpse of anything. I don't know how far they took 'realistic'...but if the 'patient's' name had been legally changed to 'Michael Jackson' beforehand...then a lot of the testimony given is the 'truth' of what actually occurred on June 25th (except for the instances where the 'patient' is specifically referred to as 'Michael Jackson, the entertainer', etc).
Hmmm...I've been putting the corpse theory on the backburner because it is the least favorable. But now that I am looking at it more closely...IF it is what took place (and hopefully TS can confirm this at some point today, so we can tackle 7c), I can see/understand why MJ would agree or decide to go this route. The success of the mission....especially one of this scale....would've been first and foremost. IF they felt that a real corpse was NEEDED, for whatever reason, then it was done. And knowing that it's Mike running the show, I'm fully confident that IF this was done, then it was done respectfully and with permission from all relevant parties.
On another note...I was just going over Blount's testimony again and I know this was definitely mentioned elsewhere but maybe it will help us now with something :?:. He said that when he walked into the bedroom there was Goodwin, Mills, and Heron (all 3 rode the firetruck...why didn't they testify???), Senneff and Murray. He said the 'patient' was fully on the bed and he observed Goodwin and Heron assisting Murray getting the 'patient' onto the floor. He was then asked if there was anyone else in the room at that time and he said 'no'.
IF Blount is NOT in on the hoax...he's either telling the truth or he's mistaken (why would he lie?). But I'm thinking that's not a 'minor' detail that he'd be mistaken about...I'd think a trained professional would most definitely recall seeing his colleagues assist in putting the 'patient' on the floor. If he's telling the truth, then this completely contradicts other testimony saying Alvarez and Murray were the ones to put the 'patient' on the floor and also the 911 call....not to mention testimony that placed Alvarez in the room when paramedics entered. It also contradicts the paramedic report (done by Senneff) because that report says the 'patient' was found on the floor. So...IF Alvarez is in on the hoax, then I would guess that Senneff is as well because his report matches Alvarez's statement/testimony and supports the 911 call. And Blount maybe isn't in on it and was telling the truth :? :?:
But then what about bec's great point about Blount and the ambu pic????
(http://stayontargetcoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/bangingheadagainstwall.gif)
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 12:31:02 PM
It's so difficult to put all these together.
TS said it would be easy but it's not :cry:
I still am hesitating between the corpse and the dummy theory and the reason is the paramedics 'cause I can't decide if they are all in or not.
But they must be in...I think WTF?? WTF?? WTF?? ...
Post by: diggyon on November 28, 2011, 12:52:08 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 28, 2011, 01:31:48 PM
I'm sure someone or something was sent to the hospital. May be there has been a set up for the guy who tried to kill MJ because Michael new it before and those who tried to kill MJ just killed the wrong guy and he is the one who was sent to the hospital. And because the Illuminati is not going to make it public that they killed the wrong guy this was never published.... Does this make any sense????
Best theory ever! :lol: suspicious//
Maybe a live double went to Carolwood that night in place of Michael (perhaps MJ was tipped off the illuminati were going to make their move---->would explain the secret "dressing room" meeting at Staples Center and Alvarez watching the entrance/exit to the stage)
Maybe even Murray was contracted to do the "hit", but couldn't and told Michael...or maybe his medications had been tampered with to make it look like an accident and they both figured it out before hand. Michael told Murray "I tested you and you passed", maybe MJ knew that's how the illuminati would try to get to him...who knows?! (Although AEG was quick to distance themselves from saying they had anything to do with hiring Murray....things that make you go hmmm....)
A really good double could fool someone at a glance...at the very least a few seconds here or there and even more so if they do not have to speak or move. If illuminati did get the wrong guy, they aren't exactly going to shout it to the rooftops....they are just going to let things play out (i.e. MJ's hoax).
If the FBI stepped in, I could see people "doing as they are told", and "saying what they need to say".
Remember Chernoff said in court...."Dr. Murray (Michael) IS FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE!" ;)
Sounds just as incredible as any other theory at this point....(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/emotions/thinking/lightbulb-idea.gif)
Post by: paula-c on November 28, 2011, 01:45:13 PM
Pffff must have been a hell of a ride with all that people in the ambulance...
FRONT seats and BACK seats and perhaps even a TS seat.
Looks more like a movie drive-in(g) ambulance to me.....
Popcorn and a milkshake Propofol guys?
Sit back and enjoy the illusionist ride......
/cook/
Bec and Souza i do not scold me, from time to time there are to laugh :lol:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_s-wc-ggsAFk/SyfWwO_jPvI/AAAAAAAALFM/TmEbWCB3MEs/s400/CARRO+LLENO+DE+GENTE.jpg)
Post by: fordtocarr on November 28, 2011, 02:02:51 PM
And also, so we're saying in the scenario that Michael really was using all those drugs, and propofol nightly to sleep while his kids were in the house??
And, it the illuminati did kill someone they had gone to get Michael to kill instead, that means Michael wouldn't ever be safe to return, because you can't KILL the illuminati or stop them ever.
And, if it is possible to catch them, there's always another.
And, what are the continuing clues for if he's not coming back?
Just asking ;)
I'm sure someone or something was sent to the hospital. May be there has been a set up for the guy who tried to kill MJ because Michael new it before and those who tried to kill MJ just killed the wrong guy and he is the one who was sent to the hospital. And because the Illuminati is not going to make it public that they killed the wrong guy this was never published.... Does this make any sense????
Best theory ever! :lol: suspicious//
Maybe a live double went to Carolwood that night in place of Michael (perhaps MJ was tipped off the illuminati were going to make their move---->would explain the secret "dressing room" meeting at Staples Center and Alvarez watching the entrance/exit to the stage)
Maybe even Murray was contracted to do the "hit", but couldn't and told Michael...or maybe his medications had been tampered with to make it look like an accident and they both figured it out before hand. Michael told Murray "I tested you and you passed", maybe MJ knew that's how the illuminati would try to get to him...who knows?! (Although AEG was quick to distance themselves from saying they had anything to do with hiring Murray....things that make you go hmmm....)
A really good double could fool someone at a glance...at the very least a few seconds here or there and even more so if they do not have to speak or move. If illuminati did get the wrong guy, they aren't exactly going to shout it to the rooftops....they are just going to let things play out (i.e. MJ's hoax).
If the FBI stepped in, I could see people "doing as they are told", and "saying what they need to say".
Remember Chernoff said in court...."Dr. Murray (Michael) IS FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE!" ;)
Sounds just as incredible as any other theory at this point....(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/emotions/thinking/lightbulb-idea.gif)
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 28, 2011, 02:18:14 PM
Yeah, it sounds good, but I ask, the illuminati picked the very day that added up to all the right numbers to do that???
And also, so we're saying in the scenario that Michael really was using all those drugs, and propofol nightly to sleep while his kids were in the house??
And, it the illuminati did kill someone they had gone to get Michael to kill instead, that means Michael wouldn't ever be safe to return, because you can't KILL the illuminati or stop them ever.
And, if it is possible to catch them, there's always another.
And, what are the continuing clues for if he's not coming back?
Just asking ;)I'm sure someone or something was sent to the hospital. May be there has been a set up for the guy who tried to kill MJ because Michael new it before and those who tried to kill MJ just killed the wrong guy and he is the one who was sent to the hospital. And because the Illuminati is not going to make it public that they killed the wrong guy this was never published.... Does this make any sense????
Best theory ever! :lol: suspicious//
Maybe a live double went to Carolwood that night in place of Michael (perhaps MJ was tipped off the illuminati were going to make their move---->would explain the secret "dressing room" meeting at Staples Center and Alvarez watching the entrance/exit to the stage)
Maybe even Murray was contracted to do the "hit", but couldn't and told Michael...or maybe his medications had been tampered with to make it look like an accident and they both figured it out before hand. Michael told Murray "I tested you and you passed", maybe MJ knew that's how the illuminati would try to get to him...who knows?! (Although AEG was quick to distance themselves from saying they had anything to do with hiring Murray....things that make you go hmmm....)
A really good double could fool someone at a glance...at the very least a few seconds here or there and even more so if they do not have to speak or move. If illuminati did get the wrong guy, they aren't exactly going to shout it to the rooftops....they are just going to let things play out (i.e. MJ's hoax).
If the FBI stepped in, I could see people "doing as they are told", and "saying what they need to say".
Remember Chernoff said in court...."Dr. Murray (Michael) IS FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE!" ;)
Sounds just as incredible as any other theory at this point....(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/emotions/thinking/lightbulb-idea.gif)
@Ford....to be honest, I don't believe in any grand conspiracy....I just don't think this is all that complicated.
.....Bottom line, nothing is definitive....if we can imagine slinging a corpse around or entertain the thought of a dummy replica, or MJ in disguise....why not involve illuminati? FBI? LAPD?
(http://serve.mysmiley.net/confused/confused0067.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net)
Post by: diggyon on November 28, 2011, 02:33:14 PM
Yeah, it sounds good, but I ask, the illuminati picked the very day that added up to all the right numbers to do that???May be there has been someone who was leaking the information about the hoax and Michael knew it, didn't stop him in order to complete the set up and turn it against them. So according to Michael's plan the numerology is perfect and that's what they have been using, but didn't know about the other plan or the set up......
And also, so we're saying in the scenario that Michael really was using all those drugs, and propofol nightly to sleep while his kids were in the house??
And, it the illuminati did kill someone they had gone to get Michael to kill instead, that means Michael wouldn't ever be safe to return, because you can't KILL the illuminati or stop them ever.
And, if it is possible to catch them, there's always another.
And, what are the continuing clues for if he's not coming back?
Just asking ;)I'm sure someone or something was sent to the hospital. May be there has been a set up for the guy who tried to kill MJ because Michael new it before and those who tried to kill MJ just killed the wrong guy and he is the one who was sent to the hospital. And because the Illuminati is not going to make it public that they killed the wrong guy this was never published.... Does this make any sense????
Best theory ever! :lol: suspicious//
Maybe a live double went to Carolwood that night in place of Michael (perhaps MJ was tipped off the illuminati were going to make their move---->would explain the secret "dressing room" meeting at Staples Center and Alvarez watching the entrance/exit to the stage)
Maybe even Murray was contracted to do the "hit", but couldn't and told Michael...or maybe his medications had been tampered with to make it look like an accident and they both figured it out before hand. Michael told Murray "I tested you and you passed", maybe MJ knew that's how the illuminati would try to get to him...who knows?! (Although AEG was quick to distance themselves from saying they had anything to do with hiring Murray....things that make you go hmmm....)
A really good double could fool someone at a glance...at the very least a few seconds here or there and even more so if they do not have to speak or move. If illuminati did get the wrong guy, they aren't exactly going to shout it to the rooftops....they are just going to let things play out (i.e. MJ's hoax).
If the FBI stepped in, I could see people "doing as they are told", and "saying what they need to say".
Remember Chernoff said in court...."Dr. Murray (Michael) IS FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE!" ;)
Sounds just as incredible as any other theory at this point....(http://www.myemoticons.com/images/emotions/thinking/lightbulb-idea.gif)
Post by: Sarahli on November 28, 2011, 02:35:07 PM
I'm sure someone or something was sent to the hospital. May be there has been a set up for the guy who tried to kill MJ because Michael new it before and those who tried to kill MJ just killed the wrong guy and he is the one who was sent to the hospital. And because the Illuminati is not going to make it public that they killed the wrong guy this was never published.... Does this make any sense????
Michael wouldn't want someone to be killed. It's like a sacrifice you're describing. Seriously Diggyon do you really think that Michael would be okay to send a double to death? And we ruled out the living double because too risky when considering the potential Illuminati threat...
TS
Quote
This also shows why it would not be a living double: MJ would not intentionally put someone else in a target position like that.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 02:36:41 PM
I'm sure someone or something was sent to the hospital. May be there has been a set up for the guy who tried to kill MJ because Michael new it before and those who tried to kill MJ just killed the wrong guy and he is the one who was sent to the hospital. And because the Illuminati is not going to make it public that they killed the wrong guy this was never published.... Does this make any sense????
Michael wouldn't want someone to be killed. It's like a sacrifice you're describing. Seriously Diggyon do you really think that Michael would be okay to send a double to death? And we ruled out the living double because too risky when considering the potential Illuminati threat...
TSQuoteThis also shows why it would not be a living double: MJ would not intentionally put someone else in a target position like that.
I agree.
Post by: diggyon on November 28, 2011, 02:44:27 PM
I'm sure someone or something was sent to the hospital. May be there has been a set up for the guy who tried to kill MJ because Michael new it before and those who tried to kill MJ just killed the wrong guy and he is the one who was sent to the hospital. And because the Illuminati is not going to make it public that they killed the wrong guy this was never published.... Does this make any sense????
Michael wouldn't want someone to be killed. It's like a sacrifice you're describing. Seriously Diggyon do you really think that Michael would be okay to send a double to death? And we ruled out the living double because too risky when considering the potential Illuminati threat...
TSQuoteThis also shows why it would not be a living double: MJ would not intentionally put someone else in a target position like that.
NOOOOOOOOO Sarahli, I would never say something like that about Michael. Never ever!!!!!!!
I am also not sure about that theory of mine. I mean that there was really someone betraying Michael somehow and trying to kill him. Then there has been a set up planned by Michael and when the Illuminati were there they just killed this guy....... and it was his body that was sent to the hospital.... well it's just a theory..... :?: :?: :?:
Post by: mimi248 on November 28, 2011, 02:44:40 PM
Post by: suspicious mind on November 28, 2011, 02:51:03 PM
the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth . amen!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 02:56:28 PM
...
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
So it wasn't MJ in the ambulance.
This is the one photo that shows the stretcher entering UCLA emergency....not that clear, but might help us decide what went to UCLA that day...The body does look alot bigger than MJ's....
God bless
And by the way, all of this would have been caught on security camera above the emergency doors..
I wonder whether the FBI made UCLA hand over the video so that it could not be sold to the media !!!! Or, should we be wondering why it has not been shown by now.
Well, looks like the "nothing went to UCLA" can be thrown in the trash bin. There is clearly something/someone on the stretcher.
Yes, that is one strong point against the nothing theory. And we also have the testimony of Sharon Sidney, so that is two strong points.
A third strong point is the nothing theory would require ALL of the paramedics in on the hoax (which nobody has offered even ONE strong point, that I know of, much less two or three). And it would also require ALL of the UCLA staff who worked the situation, to be in on it. Again, why have so many in on it?
Some have said that the area was restricted, so they could control who came into the room. While that is true, regarding the public and certain hospital staff; it is hard to know in advance every staff person who might be there that day, with authority to enter a restricted area (or at least thinks that they have authority, and decides to go in and "help out"). Randy said that there was a "... flurry of activity going on behind this curtain in the E -- um, emergency room ..." {33:49, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU)}.
So the "nothing" in the ambulance theory is excluded.
Looks to me like you know not all the paramedics are in the hoax. And also not ALL UCLA staff who "worked the situation" (you mean who worked on the body/saw the body?)
TS looks like we are left with the corpse theory and dummy theory...but you said in the original post that you never supported any of the theories WTF??
TS ..please!! Please come here and give us a little more, we're not progressing and it's almost 29 :-\
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 03:04:42 PM
I'm sorry i don't understand why talking about " mj died/resurection", is OFF TOPIC. Because, as i notice, it COUD be a possibility, in no way i say it IS true, but why it is off topic? you want to resolve the puzzle no? :(. ( sorry for my english!!)
There is another thread for that mimi, not this one.
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2011, 03:05:35 PM
As for Blount - my thoughts are initially he was not in on it and that Senneff was in.
I am also changing my thinking from a dummy to the corpse theory because of Blount's testimony and the way TS seems to be heading with some posts - plus I went back and re-read some of the earlier levels from TS and looking back on them now...well there are a few interesting hints in them regarding using a corpse (I'll see if I can find the parts a bit later and post them here)
Anyway - Blount testified that he thought the patient was already dead and that he had flatlined on the heart monitor which Senneff had put on the patient. Which sounds pretty much corpse-like to me.
In Blount's conversation with Sharon Sidney at UCLA he apparently said to her that he did not think the patient was Michael Jackson and then she got upset when he changed his testimony during the trial.
So perhaps a corpse was used, Blount wasn't in on it initially, however being an experienced paramedic maybe he asked questions that were getting too tricky and then he had to be brought in to keep him quiet?? Maybe that's why he looked so uncomfortable on the witness stand.
IDK.....with all of the above and the fact the house staff were told to leave before the stretcher came out I am now heading towards a corpse being used as well. If the FBI are involved then I guess anything is "do-able". I don't have a big problem with it because I am sure it would have been done very respectfully. If there was another option they would have used it - but if a corpse was the most realistic for Michael's safety, then so be it.
Also - wasn't there some private funeral or something like it at Forest Lawn the morning of the burial outside on the lawn for MJ???? I recall footage of this and people standing around under a marqee......maybe this was the burial for the corpse they used?
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 03:07:19 PM
Post by: Snoopy71 on November 28, 2011, 03:07:57 PM
I'm sure someone or something was sent to the hospital. May be there has been a set up for the guy who tried to kill MJ because Michael new it before and those who tried to kill MJ just killed the wrong guy and he is the one who was sent to the hospital. And because the Illuminati is not going to make it public that they killed the wrong guy this was never published.... Does this make any sense????
Michael wouldn't want someone to be killed. It's like a sacrifice you're describing. Seriously Diggyon do you really think that Michael would be okay to send a double to death? And we ruled out the living double because too risky when considering the potential Illuminati threat...
TSQuoteThis also shows why it would not be a living double: MJ would not intentionally put someone else in a target position like that.
NOOOOOOOOO Sarahli, I would never say something like that about Michael. Never ever!!!!!!!
I am also not sure about that theory of mine. I mean that there was really someone betraying Michael somehow and trying to kill him. Then there has been a set up planned by Michael and when the Illuminati were there they just killed this guy....... and it was his body that was sent to the hospital.... well it's just a theory..... :?: :?: :?:
People around Michael did say he was "afraid for his life"....that someone is trying to kill him. Whether this was legitimate or perhaps another hoax angle is uncertain.
I don't think the use of a "human shield" (live double) was even seriously considered (which is why I doubt the corpse scenario either).
Honestly, I wondered about the "secret meetings" that night, or the change in routine, and the whole "covert" happenings that night by witness'....someone definitely wants us to pause and think there was something sinister or extremely dangerous going on.
*Edit...what I can't seem to wrap my mind around is how anyone can support the corpse theory, yet think that Michael would never use a human shield?
So, MJ would never put someone in harms way, but if he has a corpse in his home, or uses one at the hospital, then that's okay?! :?
....someone explain that to me like I'm a four year old....'cause I don't get the logic. :|
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 03:10:13 PM
@Adi I tend to agree with you, but can you please explain why you think Senneff is in ?
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 28, 2011, 03:20:39 PM
Oh ok now you say it. This whole time I was under the impression that 2:26 was important because it made it into the list that Souza posted on the other page. It was actually the 2nd thing you wrote for the numerology aspect. This has been a long held belief and it was important enough for others as they have used that as a reason for Cooper to be in on it. fresse/ ;)
Nobody would be in on it, MERELY to fulfill the numerology. However, those who were already in on it, were used to implement the numerology and timing. For example, coroner was needed to be in on it, so coroner was used to finalize autopsy on 9-9-09; but if coroner was not already in the hoax for other reasons, they would not be brought into the hoax just to put 9-9-09 on the report.
The numerology list (see below) was not given in order of importance, rather it was given in chronological order (sequence events happened) and/or logical order (similar concepts together, such as 1998). But 2:26 is least important because it is not divisible by 111; it does not point directly to end of the world (1221), it does not point to NWO upside down (999), it does not point to death date (2040), etc. However, it does help validate that 12:21 was planned (see b and c, below).
a. The 911 call was in the first few seconds of 12:21
b. 12:21 to 2:26 is 2 hours and 5 minutes on June 25; 2 + 5 = 7
c. 1,221 + 226 = 1447; 1 + 4 + 4 + 7 = 16; 1 + 6 = 7
d. Memorial 7th day of 7th month, 7 years after will (and full moon)
e. 77 days from “death” to 9-9-09
f. 7 days from “burial” to 9-9-09 (and almost full moon)
g. THIS IS IT vowels = 999
h. HIS (HIStory and THIS IS IT) backwards = 1998
i. 1998 autograph; 1998 - 666 = 1332 / 4 = 333 + 666 = 999
j. 777 + 999 = 1776
k. All of these numbers (333, 666, 777, 999, 1221, 1776, 1998) are divisible by 111
l. 8 + 16 + 1977 = 2001; 6 + 25 + 2009 = 2040 (space intros for Elvis and MJ)
Thank you for these extra details. For me I can understand MJ's thought process more clearly regarding the numerology. The bolded and enlarged texts are great clues when it comes to deciding whether or not someone is in the hoax or not. The example for the coroner can be applied to Blount. Blount would not be brought in after the fact just for his testimony. For me regarding Blount's testimony during the trial he is speaking as a professional and he is trying to remember as best as possible an incident that had happened over 2 years before. Blount has gone on many 911 calls and helped many patients so for him he is recalling to the best of his ability.
Regarding his conversation with the fan at the hospital it is my belief he said he agreed as a lay person and not as a professional. Blount IMO was talking to the fan during a casual convo. His testimony would change during the trial because now he is back in professional mode.
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2011, 03:25:55 PM
Sorry Sou, I'll try. You delete 2 of them please.
@Adi I tend to agree with you, but can you please explain why you think Senneff is in ?
The main reason is because Senneff wrote the paramedics report with all the inconsistencies - wrong DOB, incorrect spelling of Michael's name etc, and his version of events regarding what was happening in the room when they arrived matched up with Alvarez's testimony (who I think is definitely in on the hoax)
Post by: mimi248 on November 28, 2011, 03:29:56 PM
hope i helped :s
Post by: Sarahli on November 28, 2011, 03:36:58 PM
NOOOOOOOOO Sarahli, I would never say something like that about Michael. Never ever!!!!!!!
I am also not sure about that theory of mine. I mean that there was really someone betraying Michael somehow and trying to kill him. Then there has been a set up planned by Michael and when the Illuminati were there they just killed this guy....... and it was his body that was sent to the hospital.... well it's just a theory..... :?: :?: :?:
Yes I know, that's why I was surprised. bearhug
I think I don't understand your theory. I am not sure what you mean by "set up" and what it includes.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 28, 2011, 03:43:15 PM
Post by: MJonmind on November 28, 2011, 03:45:19 PM
-This person does not have to have come from UCLA.
-It could have come from a private wealthy home, military hospital, or foreign private care that had all the equipment.
-MJ has connections world-wide and the patient was said to look Asian.
-Then his name and situation would be more under the documented radar.
-What is the longest that some of these people are kept alive--years?
- Head inuries from car accidents--or drug overuse.
-I don't think there is a moral problems with this, as this gives the man the release he needs and perhaps saves MJ's life much as would an organ donation.
-Facial surgeries could even have been done to help him look more like MJ.
-His name could have been changed legally to MJ's.
- They could have given him the scars, etc. needed for the autopsy report.
-He could have been brought in by all the extra security on the 24th, or by the FBI, making sure all complies by their laws and permission.
-MJ could have arranged with several potential candidates long ago just in case of one dying prematurely.
-Murray did all propofol and drug procedures as the hoax script required.
-A real 911 call was placed, the paramedics do not need to be in on it. They could have done all the intubating, injections, and CPR they thought necessary. The moniters and readings would have all been accurately putting out the heart/brain activity until flatlining.
-Them lying could be them trying to cover their asses. I think everyone not in on it is doing that.
-UCLA could have not known anything either.
-The only ones needing to be in on it then would be MJ's security guards, MJ's closest family (only a few including Paris and Prince) who would have wanted to be up close enough to touch him to see it was not him.
-Possibly the coroner is in because the AR is a partial match only to MJ.
-The ones delaying the ambulance at the house to fit hoax times, would have been the security, not EMT, as TS said Bingo to the concept.
-The only reason requiring a closed casket would be some people recognizing it was not MJ.
-His body would go through all the normal times and stages of rigormortis and breakdown.
-This gives the absolute fewest people in on the hoax as required, and still a live body that would fool ALL but the closest to MJ.
-I'm not including other hoax helpers such as Ben, Harvey Levin, a couple in court (putting in animals props etc), Kenny Ortega? (so hard to guess the list).
Could somebody medically knowledgeable comment as to the weaknesses or any added info to this possibility?
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 28, 2011, 03:53:37 PM
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2011, 03:58:50 PM
i saw TS said " Ps. It seems very in character for MJ to be on site for this entire production. Throughout the years he seems the type to be directly involved in all aspects of his work, and not one to direct remotely. For that reason, I lean towards MJ being on scene at Carolwood, and I still favor him being "the body" that went to UCLA that day. The kid in me wants to think he took the helicopter ride, and performed the grand finale of jumping out of the back of the coroner van too "
hope i helped :s
You want to check that.......because I am pretty sure it wasn't TS who wrote that.
TS has debunked the theory that MJ was in the ambulance to UCLA.
Post by: MaryK on November 28, 2011, 04:01:06 PM
I'm feeling really strongly about the hospice patient on life support as the most likely option.
MJonmind I have a few questions regarding your theory:
How had the hospice patient been brought to the house and when?
Was he still on life support IN the house and someone switched it off? If so: where did the life support equipment go before the paramedics arrived?
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 04:01:32 PM
i saw TS said " Ps. It seems very in character for MJ to be on site for this entire production. Throughout the years he seems the type to be directly involved in all aspects of his work, and not one to direct remotely. For that reason, I lean towards MJ being on scene at Carolwood, and I still favor him being "the body" that went to UCLA that day. The kid in me wants to think he took the helicopter ride, and performed the grand finale of jumping out of the back of the coroner van too "
hope i helped :s
You want to check that.......because I am pretty sure it wasn't TS who wrote that.
TS has debunked the theory that MJ was in the ambulance to UCLA.
bec said that, not TS.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2011, 04:04:30 PM
...
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
Oh duh... that's of course the most logic explanation... That's what you get when you have too much other stuff on your mind that is EATING UP your brain cells. I am going to grow some new once and think of a scenario.
lolol/
Post by: iamamjbeliever on November 28, 2011, 04:06:33 PM
Gina, can you please stop posting a dozen posts? It's pretty annoying and the thread gets extremely long and confusing because of it. Please collect your theories and questions in one post, instead of posting a new one for every word.
LOL, This!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 04:11:14 PM
Sorry Sou, I'll try. You delete 2 of them please.
@Adi I tend to agree with you, but can you please explain why you think Senneff is in ?
The main reason is because Senneff wrote the paramedics report with all the inconsistencies - wrong DOB, incorrect spelling of Michael's name etc, and his version of events regarding what was happening in the room when they arrived matched up with Alvarez's testimony (who I think is definitely in on the hoax)
I have to watch his testimony again but I don't know when, it's not much time left.
Anyway, what about Mark Goodwin? He saw the body, worked on the body with Blount and Senneff. Also Brad Harris or whatever his name is - saw the body. There are already too many people in this rescue team that should be in.
Anyway, I understand there were 5 people who arrived in ambulance and fire truck, 2 in the ambulance (Senneff and Blount) and 3 in the fire truck (Jeff Mills, Mark Goodwin and Brad H.)
4 of them were in the bedroom and saw the body and 3 of them worked on the body.
Here I go again to the corpse theory...but I am not sure.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 28, 2011, 04:13:55 PM
Post by: PureLove on November 28, 2011, 04:21:59 PM
I think the theory that involves the LEAST risk at this point is still, the corpse. Blount said he recognized MJ but that does not mean it was MJ. If he was told who the patient was, his brain would make that connection automatically believing who he saw, was who he was told it was. It's the way the mind works, he wouldn't have even questioned because why would he? Why would UCLA staff? If the doc's were also not in the hoax, they too would not question what they were being told; especially given the family confirmed who the "patient" was. 99.9999% of the world believes MJ's dead, so even if medical personnel didn't think the patient was Michael, it wouldn't make much of a difference. All the corpse had to have was fair skin, dark hair, and be thin. In fact, it could have resembled Fat Albert but no one would question would they? LOL
which sounds possible to me. Another possibility is, Blount was not in on the hoax at first but according to circumstances they involved him into the hoax and that is the reason why he said he recognized MJ at the trial. Maybe any of the paramedics were going to testify at the trial but then the plan changed and one of them had to give testimony and they included Blount into the plan. Possible.
MJonmind wrote that they could have changed the corpse's face and made him look like MJ but that would take lots of time and the corpse needed to die on the 25th to deceive the paramedics and the doctors, so I think we can skip that one. Plus a dead person could not heal, so the if they made changes on his face, the scars would be too obvious and I'm not even sure if a dead person's face can be changed.
MJ's plan could never be being in the event area that day as it would be too risky for him not only because of the threats he got but also he wouldn't risk himself to be seen by the public while they believed that he was dead. This would ruin the plan.
I think we're also getting an idea about the reasonS of the hoax ONCE AGAIN. TS wrote it long long ago about the reasons but some people missed the most important reason of the hoax. THE THREAT issue. I hope everyone will be understanding that this is not only an entertainment plan like a movie or an ARG but also there's a very serious part of the hoax which is about the threats Michael received in his life.
Post by: wishingstar on November 28, 2011, 04:28:50 PM
As much as some of us don't 'like' the corpse theory...if you reread TS' 'advice' in the OP of this thread, he said to change only what would need to be changed in order to keep it both as simple and realistic as possible. I don't know anything about obtaining a dead body or making agreements with terminally ill people to use their bodies after death...so I don't know how 'simple' those procedures would be. However, IF the FBI is involved, along with other 'key' people in key places (i.e. the coroner, some UCLA staff), perhaps this wasn't as difficult as we may think it was.
But it does fulfill the keeping it 'realistic' point. IF there was a corpse that was somehow in the vicinity of looking kinda MJ-like (i.e. you couldn't have a corpse that weighed 200 lbs, etc)...then all recollections (testimonies) wouldn't need to be fully scripted and the amount of people in on it kept to a minimum. The paramedics not in on it would have really worked on a body, same with any UCLA docs that weren't in on it....as well as covering the risk of anyone not in on it catching a glimpse of anything. I don't know how far they took 'realistic'...but if the 'patient's' name had been legally changed to 'Michael Jackson' beforehand...then a lot of the testimony given is the 'truth' of what actually occurred on June 25th (except for the instances where the 'patient' is specifically referred to as 'Michael Jackson, the entertainer', etc).
Hmmm...I've been putting the corpse theory on the backburner because it is the least favorable. But now that I am looking at it more closely...IF it is what took place (and hopefully TS can confirm this at some point today, so we can tackle 7c), I can see/understand why MJ would agree or decide to go this route. The success of the mission....especially one of this scale....would've been first and foremost. IF they felt that a real corpse was NEEDED, for whatever reason, then it was done. And knowing that it's Mike running the show, I'm fully confident that IF this was done, then it was done respectfully and with permission from all relevant parties.
On another note...I was just going over Blount's testimony again and I know this was definitely mentioned elsewhere but maybe it will help us now with something :?:. He said that when he walked into the bedroom there was Goodwin, Mills, and Heron (all 3 rode the firetruck...why didn't they testify???), Senneff and Murray. He said the 'patient' was fully on the bed and he observed Goodwin and Heron assisting Murray getting the 'patient' onto the floor. He was then asked if there was anyone else in the room at that time and he said 'no'.
IF Blount is NOT in on the hoax...he's either telling the truth or he's mistaken (why would he lie?). But I'm thinking that's not a 'minor' detail that he'd be mistaken about...I'd think a trained professional would most definitely recall seeing his colleagues assist in putting the 'patient' on the floor. If he's telling the truth, then this completely contradicts other testimony saying Alvarez and Murray were the ones to put the 'patient' on the floor and also the 911 call....not to mention testimony that placed Alvarez in the room when paramedics entered. It also contradicts the paramedic report (done by Senneff) because that report says the 'patient' was found on the floor. So...IF Alvarez is in on the hoax, then I would guess that Senneff is as well because his report matches Alvarez's statement/testimony and supports the 911 call. And Blount maybe isn't in on it and was telling the truth :? :?:
But then what about bec's great point about Blount and the ambu pic????
(http://stayontargetcoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/bangingheadagainstwall.gif)
With L.O.V.E. always.
Great post BTC......I especially love the stick figure animation....that is SO me right now!
Something occurred to me while reading your post, however. The order of who gave their testimony in court....was Blount first, second...what? I am thinking about the power of suggestion. If Blount is in on it, perhaps he helped lead the other paramedics through using the power of suggestion when they were on the scene...such as, "....wow, this is Michael Jackson we have here...." in the moment of emergency, would the others stop and really think about it, or would they just take his suggestive word as truth. From that moment on, in their minds, it's Michael Jackson they are working on...all because of one person suggesting it. Do you follow?
The stick figure should be my signature, lol. geek/
Thanks again for the post BTC.......and for the animation : )
Blessings Always
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 04:29:56 PM
...
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
Oh duh... that's of course the most logic explanation... That's what you get when you have too much other stuff on your mind that is EATING UP your brain cells. I am going to grow some new once and think of a scenario.
lolol/
For argument's sake...what if...MJ's 'ORIGINAL' plan included him jetting off on a plane beforehand, therefore not going to the hospital.
The key players for the events of June 25th are prepared for handling, let's say, a dummy. Because TS said MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital.
What if it was his secret plan though? And he doesn't tell certain people who MIGHT leak the hoax, like the paramedics or something.
So the paramedics show up expecting MJ to be long gone to the airport and to take a dummy (or corpse..but no, I just can't with that) to the hospital, but instead of a dummy, it's Michael! Plan proceeds as normal.
Except if anyone did happen to leak anything to say, the "Illuminati", they would already think Michael wasn't going to be there, when he actually was.
Ok, so I'll be quiet about the Live MJ thing for now, since most (not all) have dismissed it.
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 04:30:28 PM
In fact, we can rule out that the O2 concerts were ever intended to happen, by MJ anyway.
I think we can also safely rule out that MJ allowed himself to be put under anesthetic every night or even one night in the days and weeks leading up to 6/25/09.
@TS, if MJ was concerned about the Illuminati making a hit on him, we can rule out the death hoax completely for the exact reason you stated, once he is "dead" to the world, the Illuminati could make a hit on him with 100% assurance that NO ONE would be suspicious. He's already "dead", so he could be effectively removed in very clean, very organized, orderly fashion. MJ would know this, being the genius he is, and would have stayed SOLIDLY in the public eye FOREVER to make sure it didn't happen. To drop out of sight would be very dangerous.
So is that exactly what happened then? MJ hoaxed his death and the Illuminati moved in and rubbed him out behind the scenes? Yeah right, tell me another one, TS.
We know that this didn't happen because of the family's reaction: "justice was served". So were they talking about Murray being the sole suspect found guilty and now case closed? Well, yes, incidentally they were... but not because MJ is actually dead. Because he's not dead and this is a movie that will precipitate changing the world by shattering the public's blind trust of the media.
Post by: MJonmind on November 28, 2011, 04:35:59 PM
I agree, Bec.
PureLove, I'm not saying corpse at all, but a LIVE person on life support, just brain dead.
MaryK
Quote
I mentioned possibly the extra unfamiliar security guards seen on the 24th by fans. I think he would have been on life support until the exact time period when Murray said he went to the bathroom. Then Murray switched off the life support, unhooked everything, removed all that equipment leaving only the simple propofol IV pole etc. needed for the hoax scenario. That’s when Murray said he saw that “MJ” wasn’t breathing. There was plenty of time for the hoax life support stuff to be snuck out before the house was cordoned off by LAPD.
MJonmind I have a few questions regarding your theory:
How had the hospice patient been brought to the house and when?
Was he still on life support IN the house and someone switched it off? If so: where did the life support equipment go before the paramedics arrived?
I think all this is helped by the fact that this medic person claims ALL is authentic on the medical side of things:
Wishingstar
Quote
I found this site just last night. I am not sure if it's from our Lady Medic that posted here...but there is some really good stuff as far as explanations of what is what...perhaps something will stand out to you:
http://lady-medic.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html (http://lady-medic.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html)
Blessings
PS> here is some information I posted a long time ago about the paramedic's report too....it's not filled out correctly per the LAFD handbook:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19392.msg335730#msg335730 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19392.msg335730#msg335730)
Was it Souza or Snoopy71 talking about TS giving out disinformation about MJ to the airport?
Maybe TS is using this site to put out false information for the Illuminati who he knows are reading here as guests. Just like Lou said MJ used a dummy in an ambulance as a decoy to distract paps, just so the Illuminati maybe also watched Jermaine and his slipup, and thought MJ skipped town, allowing him to remain here with his kids. That lone airplane might have been a decoy.
I remember them saying that right after the kids moved to Encino, that someone was driving past the house and said it was being guarded like Fort Knox. That made me think MJ was there. What about the time they were coming out of their marshal arts class and all the hiding someone with jackets?
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 04:37:25 PM
If we REALLY were supposed to figure this all out as a team with no outside influence to prevent entrapment, it wouldn't be quite so obscure. He has ways of making things *crystal* clear to us and only us... yet as it is... 56 pages later we still haven't any clue. So this is either doomed to fail that entrapment prevention requirement or... or this is the ARG aspect. This is our story.
(http://stayontargetcoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/bangingheadagainstwall.gif)
The stick figure should be my signature, lol. geek/
The stick figure should be our new forum banner.
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 04:42:55 PM
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 04:44:01 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 04:47:15 PM
suspicious// suspicious// suspicious//
I agree, Bec.
PureLove, I'm not saying corpse at all, but a LIVE person on life support, just brain dead.
MaryKQuoteI mentioned possibly the extra unfamiliar security guards seen on the 24th by fans. I think he would have been on life support until the exact time period when Murray said he went to the bathroom. Then Murray switched off the life support, unhooked everything, removed all that equipment leaving only the simple propofol IV pole etc. needed for the hoax scenario. That’s when Murray said he saw that “MJ” wasn’t breathing. There was plenty of time for the hoax life support stuff to be snuck out before the house was cordoned off by LAPD.
MJonmind I have a few questions regarding your theory:
How had the hospice patient been brought to the house and when?
Was he still on life support IN the house and someone switched it off? If so: where did the life support equipment go before the paramedics arrived?
I think all this is helped by the fact that this medic person claims ALL is authentic on the medical side of things:
WishingstarQuoteI found this site just last night. I am not sure if it's from our Lady Medic that posted here...but there is some really good stuff as far as explanations of what is what...perhaps something will stand out to you:
http://lady-medic.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html (http://lady-medic.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html)
Blessings
PS> here is some information I posted a long time ago about the paramedic's report too....it's not filled out correctly per the LAFD handbook:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19392.msg335730#msg335730 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19392.msg335730#msg335730)
Was it Souza or Snoopy71 talking about TS giving out disinformation about MJ to the airport?
Maybe TS is using this site to put out false information for the Illuminati who he knows are reading here as guests. Just like Lou said MJ used a dummy in an ambulance as a decoy to distract paps, just so the Illuminati maybe also watched Jermaine and his slipup, and thought MJ skipped town, allowing him to remain here with his kids. That lone airplane might have been a decoy.
I remember them saying that right after the kids moved to Encino, that someone was driving past the house and said it was being guarded like Fort Knox. That made me think MJ was there. What about the time they were coming out of their marshal arts class and all the hiding someone with jackets?
You know I'm so tired of not being able to trust anyone.
That scenario you describe above crossed my mind a few times in the last couple of days.If someone tried to kill MJ, wouldn't they be suspicious now that his death is a hoax? Wouldn't they "investigate", just like we think we do here? Wouldn't they try to find him and kill him now??
crash/ crash/ crash/
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2011, 04:49:45 PM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=18688.msg325716#msg325716
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011)
Good eye! <!-- s:lol: -->:lol:<!-- s:lol: -->
Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress. There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other). But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.
On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way. Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.
And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let’s examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point).
What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be “in on it”? NONE! Why? Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be “in on”. Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be “in on it”? None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.
But in that case, wouldn’t people realize that it was not MJ? Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in. As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think. There are several things that would tend to distract people’s attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).
We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do. But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence. And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766)}.
See also a similar but slightly different theory {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518)}.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 04:59:20 PM
Because this post from above SEEMS to support the corpse theory....yet TS said he never supported ANY of the theories.
Yet I can't wait for him/her to come and post again WTF??
Post by: PureLove on November 28, 2011, 05:01:56 PM
PureLove, I'm not saying corpse at all, but a LIVE person on life support, just brain dead.
Ahhh, I'm sorry hun. It's my mistake. Got you. And yeah, that is possible too. But if they used a person on a life support, how did they arrange the date perfectly and pull out the plug on the 25th? But maybe that person was homeless and they got all the permission etc. That would be a long procedure imo and I think they used a corpse no matter what his face looked like. Maybe they used a wig and a little make-up or so. That would be easier and still could be enough to deceive the ones who were working on him.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 28, 2011, 05:15:58 PM
Post by: AnaMarcia on November 28, 2011, 05:23:15 PM
What about Latoya saying he was all pierced with needles?
Who is he, TS? The doll? A double? A corpse? Michael himself? Or just an illusion or lie of Latoya and Jermaine? /pull hair/
BTW, the theory of look-alike has not been fully unmasked, for me. If it's for security reasons .... there were 10 security guards around that ambulance!
Post by: PureLove on November 28, 2011, 05:23:57 PM
Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either. I was thinking of you when I said (not all).
Ladies, TS wrote:
That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.
Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?
I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2011, 05:27:28 PM
Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either. I was thinking of you when I said (not all).
Ladies, TS wrote:That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.
Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?
I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.
Actually I was wondering the same.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 05:32:33 PM
Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either. I was thinking of you when I said (not all).
Ladies, TS wrote:That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.
Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?
I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.
Actually I was wondering the same.
Because of that confusing post about the original plan..I think...
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 05:57:14 PM
QuoteSome have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.
Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.
To make it as easy as possible, I’m going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b. I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse). And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.QuoteLive MJ:
Pros:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"
Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening
There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day.
Cons:
Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient
Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving
I await your attempts at process of elimination of the Live MJ theory and I'm hoping you address some of the points I brought up, TS, because I did not include "Because it's fun" as a Pro in support of the theory. I have thrown that out in the past, in conversation, but when it comes to the nitty gritty reality of it, I set it aside... because you have to.
So, "fun" part thrown out the window, what have you addressed? It couldn't be live MJ in the ambulance because TII was billed as "different" then what we would expect from MJ? Well clearly, nearly his entire fan base would call a hoax definitely DIFFERENT then the MJ they know, as proven by their vast numbers supporting the death scenario... so MJ is already behaving DIFFERENTLY... and I do not accept that it is logical that the byline DISCOVER THE MAN YOU NEVER KNEW was addressed only to hoaxers, especially considering the line "FOR THE FANS..." heralded the opening of the movie.
Success of the project trumps fun, agreed, which is why I didn't list FUN as a Pro in support of the Live MJ theory.
Again, change only what you need to change. MJ in that ambulance from Carrolwood--->UCLA abides by this investigation method in it's purest form. The only thing that needs to be changed is the DEAD part. Everything else stays the same.
We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).
Considering we are only dealing with the scene at the house and traveling to UCLA, and being unloaded just outside the door, and subsequently ushered through to the private ER wing; what witnesses are we concerned with seeing Live MJ move/breathe/cough necessitating something being used that would play dead better then MJ himself?
Those are brief potential views... extremely brief and extremely limited opportunities.
-Through a crack in the fence, as Ben's video illustrates---VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ANYTHING CLEARLY, you're not going to be able to stop and stare hard enough to see if the "patient"s chest is rising and falling (breathing). In order to see that you would have to have an uninterrupted view of the rib cage area for at least 4 full seconds (15-20 breaths/minute=average respiration rate).
-Through the ambulance window-- Again, unlikely from the start, just because it would be difficult for anyone to get past large security man and Ben's team to sneak a peak. Even if they did, again, you have the 4 second need to witness respiration.
-While being unloaded at UCLA-- We see the ambulance having backed almost directly up to the doorway of the ER, allowing Paramedics quick and direct access to getting inside. Anyone who might get a view of the stretcher here, again, isn't going to be able to see past security and paramedics for 4 uninterrupted seconds to see MJ breathing.
-While being rushed through the ER en-route to the private wing MJ's entourage reportedly was ushered into. Again, with bodyguards and paramedics surrounding the stretcher, no one unauthorized is going to get a 4 second uninterrupted view of MJ's rib cage to determine if he is breathing or not.
I am hard pressed to find a situation from loading at Carrolwood to unloading at UCLA ("who or what went to UCLA that day") where anyone not in on the hoax would get an uninterrupted 4 second view of the "body" and thus making "possibly seeing Live MJ breathe" a major concern and therefore RISK to this theory.
Again, just focus on this one aspect: Carrolwood--->UCLA for purposes of my post and support or finding holes in the Live MJ theory. Helicopter and Coroner van are not directly related as a switch to a corpse or dummy could be done @UCLA, and is therefore irrelevant to this post.
So, TS, I am having trouble finding the risk of this theory and consider the benefits I listed:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body" (small glimpses <4 seconds, as explained above)
Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening
strong enough to outweigh the risks in this Live MJ theory. There is risk with every scenario presented, so "risk" alone doesn't debunk anything.
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 06:05:34 PM
Another strong point, MJ always starred in his own productions.
The movie theory really does run parallel to this Illuminati-escape theory and to me, it explains this aspect that TS talks about.
I guess I'm not convinced of the life and death aspect of a hoax that puts toys in the court room, releases videos of MJ jumping out of coroner van, has Poppa Joe selling perfume, the kids Twittering zombie videos, and LaToya Facebooking 52 times a day.
Ps. I've also never had it addressed as to why this FBI sting/vague and cryptic references to "Bad Guys" that TS always talks about seems to exactly mirror the Moonwalker film-->Smooth Criminal, which contains the lyrics that coincidentally SOUND JUST LIKE "Dr. Murray rescessitation..."
Post by: paula-c on November 28, 2011, 06:10:07 PM
Post by: fordtocarr on November 28, 2011, 06:16:21 PM
...
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
Oh duh... that's of course the most logic explanation... That's what you get when you have too much other stuff on your mind that is EATING UP your brain cells. I am going to grow some new once and think of a scenario.
lolol/
For argument's sake...what if...MJ's 'ORIGINAL' plan included him jetting off on a plane beforehand, therefore not going to the hospital.
The key players for the events of June 25th are prepared for handling, let's say, a dummy. Because TS said MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital.
What if it was his secret plan though? And he doesn't tell certain people who MIGHT leak the hoax, like the paramedics or something.
So the paramedics show up expecting MJ to be long gone to the airport and to take a dummy (or corpse..but no, I just can't with that) to the hospital, but instead of a dummy, it's Michael! Plan proceeds as normal.
Except if anyone did happen to leak anything to say, the "Illuminati", they would already think Michael wasn't going to be there, when he actually was.
Ok, so I'll be quiet about the Live MJ thing for now, since most (not all) have dismissed it.
I was wondering sorta along these lines too.
So, TS says Michael didn't go to ucla alive.
And his ORIGINAL plan was not to go to the hosp because someone could've leaked his plan.
Now, say it WAS leaked, and they did get to Michael.
He went to the hospital, as NOT his original plan,
but ... just as they've said. Not alive.
But, in the hospital, they actually resuscitated him.
Now, I know that don't fit with Jermaine's slip up so I don't actually believe this plan either.
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 06:19:46 PM
Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either. I was thinking of you when I said (not all).
Ladies, TS wrote:That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.
Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?
I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.
Actually I was wondering the same.
Because of that confusing post about the original plan..I think...
I'll add to what bec said in her post (I might end up repeating stuff too).
1 - We see the body (MJ) sit up in the helicopter.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Is4JfiGoZPI[/youtube]
2 - You can see the body (again, presumably MJ) kick/move his legs after the guy hoists him in the coroner van. This video is not as good as the one Snoopy posted but that vid is no longer available, oddly enough. Around the minute mark.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrzRk66wbW4&feature=related[/youtube]
3 - The video of Michael jumping out of the coroner van. Yes, this was "debunked" (for the masses who already think he's dead) by a German television station that has had connections to Michael in the past. This video was released on 8-25-09, the same day the autopsy photo was taken, even though the photo date was said to be a "mistake".
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUobkuq_1cU&feature=related[/youtube]
4 - Gives Michael hands on direction of his hoax. TS said that MJ wouldn't make a double take his spot as he wouldn't put someone else in a target position like that. And yet by believing MJ flew off on an unscheduled private jet, we are led to believe that Michael would put EVERYONE ELSE actively involved in the events of the hoax that day AT RISK??!? While he's safely tucked away on a plane or at his destination? I don't think so.
5 - It's a movie. Agree with bec that MJ stars in his own films.
6 - TS said one of the seven reasons for the hoax was a 'prank'. What better way to prank the world than play dead in front of everyone's eyes?
In my opinion, the above points along with bec's, are no less strong than the points TS gave to debunk the live MJ theory.
Post by: PureLove on November 28, 2011, 06:27:10 PM
We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).
We KNOW paramedics, the doctors and Kai are in on it? How do we know that? The staff left the house before the ambulance left, so Kai and other staff are not in on the hoax except the bodyguards.
strong enough to outweigh the risks in this Live MJ theory. There is risk with every scenario presented, so "risk" alone doesn't debunk anything.
I believe that the only risk of this all was not the threat issue but also the risk of the plan get ruined if MJ was seen alive by anyone who is not in on the hoax. Anyone in the hospital, in the ER might have got into the room and saw that he was alive. He wouldn't risk his master plan destroyed because of him.
Yes, Michael likes to starred in his productions but this is not an ordinary production of him and he is the director of this plan and therefore he doesn't need to be in the location personally. Giving directions to the people at the location would be enough and would be less risky.
TPTB is not consist of a couple of people. They are strong and smart enough and I do not believe that they would be dismissing to control the first or the last place they expect him to be.
Your points did not convince me to believe in the MJ Live theory but TS' points are really strong and sounds more logical to me. But this is my opinion. I'm wondering what TS will be saying to your points tho. Thank you for sharing them once again bec.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 28, 2011, 06:35:39 PM
I really like the Live MJ theory...it suits him best and maybe TS is just trying to throw us off (I haven't lost sight of that possibility). BUT, given that we are down to the wire and this level is supposed to end tomorrow...and TS, all of a sudden, is handing out silver cutlery on silver trays...I'm giving what he's got to say a fighting chance lol. He's either playing with us or he's trying to get us to SEE what really happened. I'm not sure either way...but would like to see where he's going with this.
The problem with the Live MJ theory is that the ONLY piece of 'evidence' we had was the sitting up in the stretcher pics...those have been debunked. There's no way to know whether or not it's MJ the other times we see the 'body' (helicopter, coroner van, etc). So all other points are conjecture...what we think MJ would do. And that may be right, unless there really WAS something serious going on. We know MJ LOVES being on stage (even though he doesn't like touring lol)...he's said he's most comfortable when performing...BUT, if there was ever a threat or some other serious issue, I'm sure he'd cancel. That's just being smart. The tricky part here is trying to figure out IF there was something serious going on and whether or not it was 'smarter' for him to be gone.
Because we don't yet know for sure...I'm running parallel theories lol...hence the 'banging the head' gif :lol:
@WishingStar...glad you liked the 'animation'....I think a few of us are feeling like that right about now :lol: And great point about the power of suggestion...something TS mentioned in the post ADI posted. It's pretty powerful on its own, but when combined with not wanting to look like the idiot for being the only one who doesn't SEE what everyone else seems to see...it can become extremely powerful.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 06:38:43 PM
As it is, the "missing" footage arouses curiosity, which can quickly turn into suspicion, and not just by hoaxers. It's a rabbit trail that to anyone SUSPECTING that MJ might try to fake his death to escape them (Illuminati) would latch onto and investigate to death before being satisfied of actual death.
But whatever. What is a strong point? Because I think this theory is full of them. Others think TS's Illuminati theory has strong points and I'm off my tree. This whole thing is turning into my opinion against your opinion (collective).
PureLove, you posted while I was finishing this post:
We don't KNOW that the staff left the house before the ambulance did, that's just what we were told.
Does any part of this death hoax sound logical? Frankly, the only thing that sounds logical to me is that MJ hoaxed his death as a giant piece of performance art as a major comeback, because he can, and to show off for his kids. His art is his life so there is no "just" or trivial aspect to what I envision at all.
What is logical? Something with precedent. There is no precedent for this.
Post by: PureLove on November 28, 2011, 06:39:09 PM
I'll add to what bec said in her post (I might end up repeating stuff too).
1 - We see the body (MJ) sit up in the helicopter.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Is4JfiGoZPI[/youtube]
How do we know that it is MJ in the helicopter? I agree with the moving body but it could be anyone.
3 - The video of Michael jumping out of the coroner van. Yes, this was "debunked" (for the masses who already think he's dead) by a German television station that has had connections to Michael in the past. This video was released on 8-25-09, the same day the autopsy photo was taken, even though the photo date was said to be a "mistake".
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUobkuq_1cU&feature=related[/youtube]
We again do not know if that is MJ or not. Just assuming. Maybe it was really a game of the German tv channel.
4 - Gives Michael hands on direction of his hoax. TS said that MJ wouldn't make a double take his spot as he wouldn't put someone else in a target position like that. And yet by believing MJ flew off on an unscheduled private jet, we are led to believe that Michael would put EVERYONE ELSE actively involved in the events of the hoax that day AT RISK??!? While he's safely tucked away on a plane or at his destination? I don't think so.
While everyone was thinking that he was dead, I do not think that he would be risking someone's life at risk to fly with a private jet. Especially with a fake name and a disguise.
5 - It's a movie. Agree with bec that MJ stars in his own films.
This time he is not the actor of his film but the director of his film. Giving direction to people at the locations would be enough. Why would he need to pop in front of the camera where there was no need to? He is the invisible star and the visible star of the movie is Murray. And this is definitely not only a movie.
6 - TS said one of the seven reasons for the hoax was a 'prank'. What better way to prank the world than play dead in front of everyone's eyes?
He doesn't need to be in front of people's eyes to make it a prank.
P.S: I'll be going to bed right now and I'll be thinking about these because these are the last things I read and will be thinking of you Andrea. :shock: geek/ Scared yet? :lol:
bearhug
Post by: fordtocarr on November 28, 2011, 06:52:13 PM
If this is a movie or hoax or sting, and NOT about the illuminati and there is SO much about their involvement, isn't this actually accusing them..and a very dangerous THEM???
AND if they ARE involved in this, how could Michael EVER return??? They do not go away!
I just DO NOT think this is about the illuminati.
BUT, who the heck am I????
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 06:54:50 PM
But to reply to what you said, - "How do we know that it is MJ in the helicopter? I agree with the moving body but it could be anyone." - we don't KNOW it was MJ but if we take TS's word for it that a double wasn't involved, then who else could it be? Would Michael risk someone else's life over his own?
Another thing you said PureLove - "While everyone was thinking that he was dead, I do not think that he would be risking someone's life at risk to fly with a private jet. Especially with a fake name and a disguise." - The people who were involved that day KNOW Michael's not dead. If there was some nefarious plan to "get Michael" that day, Michael would be risking everyone's lives who were involved in pulling off the hoax, risk of being in the cross fire. If there were no wicked murder plans that day, the hoax and everyone involved still risks exposure and once again, would Michael do that to people he trusts and are loyal to him? To anyone? I just don't see it, despite what we haven't discovered about the man we never knew.
To the rest of what you said, read my comment above what you said, lol. Have a good night girl.
bearhug
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 07:00:12 PM
I have to say, that IF this is NOT about the illuminati, and it is US/TS that have brought up their involvement, wouldn't "they" be on here or someplace jumping on us about NOT being involved in KILLING Michael Jackson????
If this is a movie or hoax or sting, and NOT about the illuminati and there is SO much about their involvement, isn't this actually accusing them..and a very dangerous THEM???
AND if they ARE involved in this, how could Michael EVER return??? They do not go away!
I just DO NOT think this is about the illuminati.
BUT, who the heck am I????
If the Illuminati (I don't trust that word, I'm gonna say TPTB) didn't try to kill Michael that day, they are still not good people. They still control mostly everything in the world. How can Michael expose them if no one knows who they are? How much have so many people learned here about TPTB since Michael faked his death? I first started learning about them when I was 19, right after 9/11 happened but my knowledge has greatly increased since belonging to this forum. The lesson may be more important than the active application.
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 07:25:54 PM
Snoopy, I rather like that you arrived on the scene. You're really contributing here, I am glad to have you aboard. Great post. But you forget the third option; dummy/cadaver/Live MJ.
Live MJ solves the problem of storage and disposal (lol). Live MJ can disguise or hide and be ushered out of anywhere in a multitude of ways. He's been doing it his whole life, really. No different on 6/25/09 if he had to find someway to leave undetected by public or paps. Who better then MJ to leave a venue unnoticed?
Live MJ solves the problem of fooling the casual glance. If someone were to catch a glimpse of him on the stretcher; either through the Carrolwood gates or going into the ER at UCLA, it really is MJ on the stretcher so there's no problem. Appearances are kept up. Who's to say at quick glance if he's alive or dead?
Live MJ also solves the basic need for MJ to direct and oversee Day Zero, which is so crucial to the 2+ year long project which was to follow.
Live MJ lets us see him sitting up on the stretcher and sitting up in the helicopter.
Live MJ also completes the story with Van Video and coroner photoshoot in one seamless flow.
Using a Live MJ is the simplest scenario that satisfies all of the hoax needs. Live MJ also allows everyone to say it looked like MJ and it was MJ and they worked on MJ, MJ was laying there, etc. Maybe when they gave him the balloon pump they gave it to him and let him play around with it for awhile (ha). They had a couple of hours to kill.
I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.
I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.
Bec,
I would 100% agree with you....that is until about 20 minutes ago.
Now I'm a little shaky on the "live MJ" scenario.The Cadaver/Donnor bodytheory is out the window for me.
I was debating with PureLove about the body transport to the van. In some instances the body appears "flat", so I reviewed the video taken that day and came across some interesting revelations.
I don't want to prejudice your perspective, so take a look and see what it looks like to you.
The video is looped, but the event occurs at :51, 4:40, 5:40 and 8:17.
Look closely inside the van.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]
I've seen it. I did rewatch it again but I have seen it a thousand times, and I'm probably not kidding. This wasn't missed, the topic of the man lifting the "body" in the coroner's van was tossed around at length in 2009 (no pun intended). Keep watching the tape. He uses both hands and he pics the "body" up with the knot of the sheet. He hefts what appears to be the right amount of weight in making the effort. Watch again, and again, and again. It's spot on.
I think it's Live MJ. How fun would that be. I have always loved that theory because it's so much incredible fun even though I didn't think it was very realistic (risk), but now that we have seen trial and know that Dr. Cooper is for sure in on the hoax (tells us she worked on a dead body for over 1 hour and called t.o.d. 2:26), I'm totally fine with this theory being The One. It all fits, start to finish, in perfect lateral progression of Day Zero events.
Actually, now that I watch that particular scene again (and again and again and again) it looks like the body shifts itself to help the guy moving his body! Especially at the 0:53 mark, if you look lower on the sheet, you can SEE someone underneath moving as well, not just the sheet itself. OMG!!
It's Michael under that sheet, I'm sure of it now. I always liked the scenario that it was him all the way along but now I'm convinced of it. Holy cow!!! This is HUGE for me.
Thank you bec for your insight as it made me watch that part again and see as you do.
Michael was there every step of the way - Carolwood, ambulance, hospital, helicopter, coroner van - then we lost track of him after he jumped out and disappeared behind the door....although I know we've seen him since.
Bring on the next level!
This was my "eureka!" moment. Just over 2 weeks ago I saw that video footage. Now you can't see that video anymore. How long do you think that particular video has been around for, 2+ years would be a reasonable guess. Coincidence?
I like the Live MJ best, it seems to fit all the parameters in my eyes. If it must be debunked, then please explain why, for all of the points suggesting that it was actually Michael that day.
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 07:38:49 PM
So all the information suggests it is Live MJ and the sole reason this cannot be is conjecture??? Not debunked.
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 07:41:57 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 07:47:16 PM
That's the point, isn't it Andrea, all the points suggesting that it WAS MJ himself. At face value, this is exactly what happened, you look at each stage of the game and all signs point to Live MJ. Then you add fear and doubt and risk and worry and suddenly you need a 54 page elaborate discussion of "what really happened".
So all the information suggests it is Live MJ and the sole reason this cannot be is conjecture??? Not debunked.
The lions and tigers and bears oh my! aspect of following the yellow brick road.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 28, 2011, 07:52:36 PM
This was my "eureka!" moment. Just over 2 weeks ago I saw that video footage. Now you can't see that video anymore. How long do you think that particular video has been around for, 2+ years would be a reasonable guess. Coincidence?I like the Live MJ best, it seems to fit all the parameters in my eyes. If it must be debunked, then please explain why, for all of the points suggesting that it was actually Michael that day.
Here is the vid...it's still there just prob not under that account anymore:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo[/youtube]
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2011, 07:55:36 PM
This was my "eureka!" moment. Just over 2 weeks ago I saw that video footage. Now you can't see that video anymore. How long do you think that particular video has been around for, 2+ years would be a reasonable guess. Coincidence?I like the Live MJ best, it seems to fit all the parameters in my eyes. If it must be debunked, then please explain why, for all of the points suggesting that it was actually Michael that day.
Here is the vid...it's still there just prob not under that account anymore:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo[/youtube]
With L.O.V.E. always.
Lol, ok. But still, that particular video that was on THIS THREAD is the one that stopped working.
Oh, and it's not the same video although it has some of the same footage.
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 28, 2011, 08:18:32 PM
I'm gonna go one further. The "missing" security footage. If there's a dead body laying there, or a life like dummy, and all the events proceeded just as they tell it why no security footage? Where'd it go? It being "missing" indicates there was something on that footage that no one was allowed to see, necessitating it's destruction. Would this footage existing not enhance the illusion of a death hoax? Dramatic footage released of Michael's last minutes attended by Murray in the bed, cut to scene of Paramedics rushing in, cut to scene of stretcher being carried out... wonderful stuff to convince the world AND The Illuminati that MJ was deader then a doornail. Surely at least they would have footage of MJ coming home the night before. But no. Nothing.
As it is, the "missing" footage arouses curiosity, which can quickly turn into suspicion, and not just by hoaxers. It's a rabbit trail that to anyone SUSPECTING that MJ might try to fake his death to escape them (Illuminati) would latch onto and investigate to death before being satisfied of actual death.
But whatever. What is a strong point? Because I think this theory is full of them. Others think TS's Illuminati theory has strong points and I'm off my tree. This whole thing is turning into my opinion against your opinion (collective).
PureLove, you posted while I was finishing this post:
We don't KNOW that the staff left the house before the ambulance did, that's just what we were told.
Does any part of this death hoax sound logical? Frankly, the only thing that sounds logical to me is that MJ hoaxed his death as a giant piece of performance art as a major comeback, because he can, and to show off for his kids. His art is his life so there is no "just" or trivial aspect to what I envision at all.
What is logical? Something with precedent. There is no precedent for this.
If Michael faked his death due to the Illuminati, don't you think they could read everything we are posting in this forum? I am just wondering what would happen if they would..
Post by: paula-c on November 28, 2011, 08:22:05 PM
Michael Jackson's Body -- Hold the Plastic
While it may seem like the kind of thing Michael Jackson would do, reports that the late singer made plans to have himself "plastinated" and put on display are exaggerated.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/06/27/0627_michael_jackson_body_worlds_getty_80028891_88656575.jpg)
The director of publicity for Dr. Gunther von Hagens tells TMZ someone claiming to be from Jackson's management team did contact BODY WORLDS several months ago about Jackson's interest in being preserved in plastic.
But, she says, "We can further confirm that Mr. Jackson is not now a registered body donor in the Institute for Plastination's Body Donation Program."
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/27/michael-jacksons-body-hold-the-plastic/#.TtQ-UWVCgnI
(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/albums2/ATgAAAA7IzWRsMGoaszivugwL8ZKYm3pkvQ84hZ-0Tsa1BIXXDjPEz4_yVtyO-A4qaUH-qsgTOyaIkFCX4VGRdC9kQZJAJtU9VBLAL9nHzqjSZRm96Iuju97IA-Opg.jpg)
Post by: Grace on November 28, 2011, 08:39:54 PM
Quote
Body Worlds 2 & The Brain – Our Three Pound Gem (concerning the brain and nervous system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system)) opened in 2005 at the California Science Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Science_Center) in Los Angeles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles).
Quote
Body Worlds 3 & The Story of the Heart (concerning the cardiovascular system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiovascular_system)) opened on February 25, 2006, at the Houston Museum of Natural Science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Museum_of_Natural_Science).
Quote
The exhibit states that its purpose and mission is the education of laymen about the human body, leading to better health awareness.All the human plastinates are from people who donated their bodies for plastination via a body donation program (http://www.bodyworlds.com/en/bodydonation/body_donation_program.html).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Worlds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Worlds)
This could be another source for the "corpse theory".
As to the "threat theory": the world is ruled by fear.
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 28, 2011, 09:33:20 PM
That's the point, isn't it Andrea, all the points suggesting that it WAS MJ himself. At face value, this is exactly what happened, you look at each stage of the game and all signs point to Live MJ. Then you add fear and doubt and risk and worry and suddenly you need a 54 page elaborate discussion of "what really happened".
So all the information suggests it is Live MJ and the sole reason this cannot be is conjecture??? Not debunked.
I LOVE the way you "think" BEC!
I know I haven't been contributing to this thread much, but I LOVE sitting back watching. Keep up the great work family! I have a "feeling" that Michael is going to need us to put our "investigative" skills to use again, in the very near future.
I know that many of you are confused and frustrated, but please know that everything will make sense when all is revealed. There is so much more to come. The "hoax" is just one of the many "Life Lessons" to be learned on this "adventure". The "Hoax" will be a Global wake up call, and from there, the "lessons" will keep coming. People's "perception" of what they have Believed in all of their lives ,is about to be ROCKED to it's core! In the end it will be up to "US", to look at the world and our own Lives, with a whole new perspective. This is all about discovering who "we" really are, and about "Making a change" and living our lives with LOVE, Freedom and Unity! LOVE is Important...LOVE is the answer!
Remember..."This Is It, but it isn't IT" and "This isn't the End...It's just the Beginning"!
Keep the Faith my Beautiful Family! Michael LOVES each and every one of us, enough so, that he "Died" to save our Lives!
I LOVE You guys and I appreciate all of your hard work!
Blessings LOVE and LIGHT!
TS...I LOVE YOU!!, Thank You for all that you do for us!
bearhug
Post by: Suzy7 on November 28, 2011, 10:09:06 PM
We are at a crucial point in this hoax and to mislead seems like a huge waste of time, TS' time and ours, nor is it teaching anyone anything.
It also appears that people are holding on to their theories for dear life; whilst ignoring TS' posts which include evidence to back up the information. The "Live MJ" theory is exciting sure, but there is no EVIDENCE showing he was there or why. Wanting to believe it is not enough.
Also, the reason the Illuminat/NWO threat to MJ matches with his work, (i.e. Smooth Criminal/Black or White/TDRCAU) is because he was trying to get this true message across. There really is no reason this threat should be debated considering we have MJ and his family telling us over a course of years, about this conspiracy against him and artist's in general. Therefore, it is not "if" but "is", because it did and does exist. That is really what TS was trying to say, in my opinion.
Smooth Criminal was about the Illuminati/NWO etc, blinding the public's eye from the truth, hence MJ blowing dust into the camera, saying they've been "got" by a smooth criminal. Also, it shows them against him, and he blinds them the same way (blows dust into their eyes) and tells them they've been "got" by him. Like this hoax. And I could go on but you get the point.
TS redirected to a post by Serenitys_Dream on Jan. 10, for a reason. It spoke about the corpse theory and she had posted great examples of why it would be used in that thread. He always redirected to something for a reason even if it was just something small. I have been reading his posts for 2+ yrs., and have yet to see him "mislead" people.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 28, 2011, 10:24:26 PM
The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
EXACTLY! It is coming together now, as I said it would. As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:
BINGO!
Someone suggested that the staff were sent away, so they would not take pictures. Really? In a life-and-death emergency, you are going to WAIT until the staff leaves, before taking MJ to the hospital, JUST SO NOBODY GETS A PICTURE????? In other words, it's okay if MJ dies before we get him to the hospital, just so long as nobody gets a picture in the process!!!???!!!
Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did. So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax. If MJ really died, this makes no sense.So that gets rid of MJ in person on the stretcher.....
Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.
TS, you were telling that NOTHING went to UCLA and Michael was NOT with us WAY BEFORE he arrived to the airport (by Jermain), meaning Michael left Carolwood way before staged 911 call, then he went to airport to fly somewhere.
Then WHY and what is the meaning to tell house staff to leave house NOT TO SEE WHAT WAS ON STRETCHER if you are suggesting NOTHING went to UCLA.
SEE, I FOUND INCONSISTENCY in your theory because now u say staff was let go so they could not take a picture of BODY on stretcher bringing down. I am confused; was there body or no?
Post by: Suzy7 on November 28, 2011, 10:37:37 PM
That theory involves the highest risk of all theories.
On the ambulance pic and Blount; if Blount is not in the know, and he wanted to say something there are many people in high/key places that is enough to keep him silent. If he was "let in" after that day then it still wouldn't change anything. Ben was there on June. 25., to reinforce the power of suggestion. Paramedics and the public can see a photographer run along side the ambulance that later claimed to take the "last pic" of MJ, thus, people believe that the photo was indeed shot in real time from that day/event. Blount for example, could have also been effected by this "power of suggestion" because he could have seen Ben himself that day and therefore, not question the photo etc.
The idea that MJ stars in all of his productions, is hardly evidence that he would ride in the ambulance that day and risk everything. He is the star of this production regardless. He is the "performer who died tragically" and became the victim with all eyes on him. He didn't need to go to in the ambulance to UCLA because this whole scenario revolves around him anyway.
And finally, the threat of the 'Illuminati' against him NOW doesn't hold much weight, only because he is I'm sure, safe and protected. The worlds eyes are on his family and if anything was to happen, huge questions would arise. Much like if he came back, everyone would be watching him AND the culprits. If he died mysteriously after the BAM, ofcourse it would raise suspicion because people would be aware of the threat. Thusly, after the BAM he is safest and protected, not just by people close to him, but the public. So even if they were to read info here or anywhere, what can they do really? Hunt him down or his family? If we believe Michael is in control, then he and his family are fine.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 28, 2011, 10:53:48 PM
TS did say in the past that he may support false theories from time to time. I'm not sure if he ever gave an exact reason for this but if I had to guess...it was to see if we'd just gobble up what he was telling us or actually research it for ourselves. I don't think for one second he ever did it for malicious reasons...if anything, as more of a test (if he did it at all).
I am not doubting the REAL threats that were against MJ one bit...they are/were evident to anyone who looked deep enough. What I am unsure of (and what I meant in my previous post---not sure if you were questioning something I wrote)...is whether or not a specific threat existed on June 25th. IMO, it would make a big difference in how things were carried out depending on whether or not there was.
I tend to think that given this level was supposed to be completed by the 29th and TS went as far as saying he would complete it himself if necessary to meet this 'deadline'...that he is not misleading us now. That's my gut feeling...but, at the same time...I'm a bit 'thrown off' because TS has never spoonfed us anything and yet all of a sudden he is kinda sorta lol.
In support of him NOT misleading us now...IMO, everything he's said so far makes sense.
At the end of the day...the scenario that would cause the LEAST amount of risk to MJ and his hoax, is the one that makes the most sense to me...the whole purpose of all this was to 'fake' his death. Intentionally putting himself in a position that could screw things up, or worse yet make his death a reality, would defeat the purpose.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: monstertooty on November 28, 2011, 11:09:59 PM
Annie are you okay? michael-jackson/
Post by: Suzy7 on November 28, 2011, 11:26:00 PM
I think TS is a bit fed up lol, so he's trying his best to point us in the right direction, but people here have done a great job in investigating every theory and have made much progress.
I also do not think there was a threat on June 25 specifically but everyday in general-if that makes sense. Considering everything happened that day according to plan and TS made reference to MJ leaving to his secret location on a plane, PRIOR to the events unfolding, than they did not "get" him or ruin his *initial* plan in my opinion.
@monstertooty I agree the van video was not debunked at all. What I don't know, is if it happened that day in real time. If it did, it could have been a double; if not, it could have been filmed prior. Either way, it was important to the hoax considering it's release date and it's possible purpose of making people question his "death". Just like the autopsy, gurney and ambulance picture's, it could have been done again, in advance, and everything released according to plan.
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2011, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: MJhasSpokenI know TS said this hoax is because of many things but TS didn't say it was also because MJ was in danger? So is MJ not in danger or was never in danger?
This is not an important question but TS said that it was also a prank, who is it a prank to? I know MJ liked doing pranks but why is that one of the reasons? I am not trying to single out that reason or take it out of context but it just interests me.
I have always said that MJ was in danger, but it was not imminent danger on June 25. Did he realize on the morning of June 25, that someone was hot on his tracks--and then he suddenly decided to make a dash for the airport, while planning and orchestrating the hoax by cell phone on the run? No, he had this planned for a long time; the numerology, the "illusion", and even his statement to Randy the night before--all these show us clearly that MJ already had it planned to the exact day. Therefore, it was not a last-minute idea to escape imminent danger.
Also just another interesting section from TS - TIAI April 11 (Level 3) about what may have or may not have gone in the ambulance which I was reading last night:
Quote
so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
and then this from TIAI March 9th (Level 2)
Quote
just like last time, I may play “DA” (devil's advocate)—and try to debunk things that are true, just to keep you on your toes! Enjoy the ride!!
But I agree.....would TS be doing this now to us again so late in the goings-on??? maybe......maybe not.... no-one really knows except TS.....
I'm going to have to use one of those bloody hair pulling smilies (which I have refused to use so far)
/pull hair/
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Suzy7 on November 28, 2011, 11:34:42 PM
Post by: bec on November 28, 2011, 11:58:35 PM
Quote
Agreed. That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital. Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.Jermaine's words can only be taken for what they're worth. Just because Jermaine (or LaToya or Joe or Paris) says something, doesn't make it true. He could well have been just dropping a rabbit hole. It's a popular theory, why not a false lead? It got attention, a lot of it. And who says the diagram of the hoax is out there in the media? Sounds like theatrics designed to draw attention, but false attention. You won't be spoon fed anything and Jermaine's fake slip up proves that. First of all, even if the escape theory were the truth, MJ would have left at least the night before if not day(s) before, not the day of 6/25/09 as the context of Jermaine's slip up suggests.
Exactly, lol.The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
EXACTLY! It is coming together now, as I said it would. As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.
Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:
BINGO!
Someone suggested that the staff were sent away, so they would not take pictures. Really? In a life-and-death emergency, you are going to WAIT until the staff leaves, before taking MJ to the hospital, JUST SO NOBODY GETS A PICTURE????? In other words, it's okay if MJ dies before we get him to the hospital, just so long as nobody gets a picture in the process!!!???!!!
Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did. So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax. If MJ really died, this makes no sense.So that gets rid of MJ in person on the stretcher.....
Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.
Pardon me but, huh?? What is reason 3? Because the staff was sent home before the stretcher was brought down? #1 we only have a random media report that the staff was sent home. Kai did not confirm that she was sent home before the stretcher came down. #2 however, even if this report is true, it does not mean that MJ wasn't there and didn't go to UCLA in the ambulance, it just means that the priority at the house was minimal witnesses.
My fourth point, on MJ not going to the hospital, is the testimony of Sharon Sidney. She is one of the “stalker” fans, who was at Carolwood day and night; and she was there when the ambulance went to UCLA. Ben talks about her, and you can even see a still shot of her face {see 1:15, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44); compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBwcjfRkht0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBwcjfRkht0)}.
Of course we could write this off by saying that she is in on the hoax, but why? Or if she is not in the hoax, why would she lie? This is not my only evidence; but it is one of them. And the testimony of people is usually considered acceptable evidence for court cases.
A casual fan might not be able to determine whether or not it was MJ on the stretcher; but she was no casual fan. Her purpose in following the ambulance to UCLA was to see what was or wasn’t in the stretcher; so it would be very hard to say that she merely FORGOT whether or not she saw MJ on the stretcher—this would NOT be something that you might forget (such as the time of day).
“She says, there were strange cars at Michael Jackson's mansion on the night of June 24th. She felt that something covert was taking place. ... She tells of how, at the hospital, she spoke with paramedic Blount, and how they both agreed that the person that was wheeled into the hospital was not Michael Jackson. Sharon is adamant that the patient wheeled into the emergency room was much shorter than Michael. She was very upset that paramedic Blount told a completely different story when he testified for the prosecution and detailed how he and his partner handled Michael's resuscitation efforts at Carolwood.”
{http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20842.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20842.0)}.
The stalker fans make poor witnesses for detail because of their level of emotional trauma that day. She was looking at a body shape covered by a sheet being wisked past her... she may think she knows a lot about what she saw, but how much realistically could she have seen? Most likely she was just mistaken. Perhaps her perception was off. Perhaps she was just hysterical. Perhaps it was a combination of all 3. Who knows. A single witness isn't really credible considering her observation goes unsubstantiated. Not only unsubstantiated by Blout who never publically confirmed this story, but also by all the images we have from 6/25/09. The "body" has been described as a lot of things by us over the years, but never as being "too short". I don't really have to add that maybe she is just lying.
I don't believe they would kill him according to this numerology, but I have never thought about the option of them trying after the world would already think he's dead. But that would mean AFTER he was pronounced dead.
No, they probably would not follow the 12:21 and 2:26; but we are NOT discussing here if the ACTUALLY got him (and since we have these numbers, then they did not get him). Instead, we are discussing how MJ would PLAN for things to go. They could take him out any time after the (supposedly) "not breathing" point in time, and the world would think that MJ was already dead (or very nearly so). The risk therefore did not start at 2:26, the risk started a couple of hours before that.
Also, I am not saying that MJ found out that they were planning to get him that day. Rather, I'm saying he knew that there was a general threat out there (and had been there for a long time); and IF someone in the hoax leaked his plans, it would be an unnecessary risk to go to the hospital (and also escape from the hospital, with a lot of people around--not all of whom you can trust).
Yes, there was also risk while getting away in a plane, and afterwards; but much less people needed to know about the specifics of the getaway, than the people in on the hoax. You can't eliminate all risks, but you can minimize them.
You say it would be an unnecessary risk to go the hospital, yet... the ambulance and something did go to the hospital, and then something did leave UCLA that day and it was written into the script for a reason. Considering this was a KEY action scene, again, something had to make that trip. You say it would be difficult for MJ to escape. A body "escaped" wrapped in a sheet from the room via helicopter. Even if this is NOT MJ, MJ has been making it his business to "escape" from buildings and venues and events undetected his entire life. Avoiding the paps and the crowd is nothing new for MJ. Why would 6/25/09 be any different?
If we accept that the UCLA docs are in on it, the Paramedics are in on it, the Bodyguards are in on it, and the Coroner guys are in on it, MJ had all the cover and protection he needed to do this stunt wrapped in a sheet, it now seems, Carrolwood-->Coroner. Additionally, if you accept that the FBI is involved in some facet, you accept that those Helicopter guys are under orders to look the other way.
Some have said that the area was restricted, so they could control who came into the room. While that is true, regarding the public and certain hospital staff; it is hard to know in advance every staff person who might be there that day, with authority to enter a restricted area (or at least thinks that they have authority, and decides to go in and "help out"). Randy said that there was a "... flurry of activity going on behind this curtain in the E -- um, emergency room ..." {33:49, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU)}.
I do not know what lengths you would need to go to to ensure, in advance, that an ER scenario was 100% secure before attempting this hoax but that's one of those things that a movie production layperson and non-celebrity would never know. Like the legality questions, there's certain technical aspects to the hoax that I just have to trust the proper precautions have been taken. If you like, TS, you can count this as one strong piece of evidence that supports your theory simply because I do not have the expertise to say if it's possible or not. I do know that UCLA has wings of their ER that are available for shooting movies and TV in, and the LAFD and LAPD offer assistance in the form of props and vehicles for filming Hollywood productions, but that is all I can offer.
I might go back to the stretcher .gif again. I'll concede TS successfully showed an object which is probably legs on the far side of the stretcher but I don't agree this means MJ wasn't on the stretcher and I also don't agree that it means that is not MJ's ear-face-ear/ponytail that we see for 3 frames. I don't know if it's worth arguing anymore though, the hour is late.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 29, 2011, 12:20:32 AM
The credibility of any information does not start and end with its source. Just because TS said it doesn't make it true.
Agree. But IF he/she would have been an INSIDER/KNOWER, it suppose to be true and only true, right? Since there is only one truth and if TS source is Michael himself or family memb., then there should be NO doubts. IMO.
Post by: bec on November 29, 2011, 12:32:14 AM
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 29, 2011, 12:33:39 AM
People around Michael did say he was "afraid for his life"....that someone is trying to kill him. Whether this was legitimate or perhaps another hoax angle is uncertain.
I don't think the use of a "human shield" (live double) was even seriously considered (which is why I doubt the corpse scenario either).
Honestly, I wondered about the "secret meetings" that night, or the change in routine, and the whole "covert" happenings that night by witness'....someone definitely wants us to pause and think there was something sinister or extremely dangerous going on.
*Edit...what I can't seem to wrap my mind around is how anyone can support the corpse theory, yet think that Michael would never use a human shield?
So, MJ would never put someone in harms way, but if he has a corpse in his home, or uses one at the hospital, then that's okay?! :?
....someone explain that to me like I'm a four year old....'cause I don't get the logic. :|
Snoopy71- I wrote this in the TIAI April 11 thread. I hope this helps you to understand more clearly. If you can't click certain links maybe if you go to the original post it will work. http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=18688.msg323187#msg323187
I am not addressing this post to anyone in particular but I am going to address the issue of a corpse/cadaver being used in this hoax. First off do any of you know the history of cadavers on science/medical research? The medical advancements made due to the use of cadavers is incredible. The things medical personnel have learned from the use of cadavers would not have been possible any other way.
I am very grateful to those cadavers who helped to teach my trauma surgeon how to do life saving operations when I almost died in 2005. I am sure if any of you have ever been in a life or death situation and had to go under for surgery to save your life you may feel a little different. 8-)
Medicine: Cadavers Monday, Mar. 29, 1937
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,757513-1,00.html
Next I want to address the history of cadavers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver and how they have been used/obtained over the years and the cadavers that were chosen. Some of them were from mental hospitals, some from the prisons, some from grave robberies, some from unclaimed, unidentified, transient, and from families who may have decided to donate. There has been a huge amount of progress to a more respectable way of getting cadavers.
There is also the issue of what to do with the bodies/cadavers that are at the coroner's that have not been claimed, indentified or families who can not afford to pick up their loved one. I have come across many articles that deal with that issue. I found a very interesting article in which Craig Harvey explains the increase of bodies being at the coroner's and what the end result is when they get overloaded. Below is an excerpt.
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/12/local/me-morgue12
Unclaimed Bodies Crowd the L.A. County Morgue
The lack of refrigerated storage space is forcing staffers to temporarily move corpses into halls.QuoteMay 12, 2006|Hector Becerra | By Hector Becerra Times Staff Writer
The Los Angeles County morgue is experiencing unprecedented overcrowding this year, prompting officials to stack bodies and to move them out of refrigerated crypts and into hallways for periods of time.
The morgue building is designed to hold 300 to 350 bodies, but at last count 415 bodies were being stored there, according to Craig Harvey, a spokesman for the coroner's office. At one point a few months ago, there were 447 bodies, the highest number of corpses that Harvey has seen in his 18 years with the agency.
"The coroner was never intended to be the mortuary of last resort," Harvey said. "But that's kind of what we've become.... Hallways become a parking lot where bodies are put until we get those we want out."
Population growth, illegal immigration, familial estrangement and poverty may be factors in the increase in the number of bodies, officials said.
"One of the things we've always tried to do is give families back a body," Harvey said. "But when we're looking for families, we find that today we're not always dealing with the Ozzie-and-Harriet close-knit families. Families are often estranged."
Some of the unidentified or unclaimed bodies are probably those of immigrants who came to this country but have no nearby loved ones. Others are homeless or are estranged from their families, officials said.
In some cases, family members cannot afford to pay even for cremation or refuse to pay for the funeral."We've had scenarios where a family is interested in the bank account and the estate, and that's it," Harvey said. "They don't care what happens to the body. They won't even take out of the estate to pay for the funeral expenses."
In the 1980s, it was unusual to have more than 250 bodies at the facility. In the 1990s, that number rose to about 300. In the past, coroner's officials could count on spikes in the number of stored bodies, which were then followed by quick declines, Harvey said.
"That's not happening anymore," Harvey said. "We thought this was just a temporary thing, but it's not going back down. It's staying static."
On Jan. 1, the coroner had 444 stored bodies. Harvey said he had expected that number to drop significantly after the holidays. But eight days later, the number declined by only 25. Harvey said the most obvious solution was to send bodies more quickly to the county crematorium, which is run by the County-USC Medical Center. Some bodies have been at the morgue for nine months, he said.
Then theres the issue of decomp and how the process is slowed down once the body is refrigerated. Yes this is standard for the coroner to do. They refrigerate the body. This method allows for the cadaver to be used for periods of 10 hours at a time for study/research. http://www.sccvote.org/SCC/docs/Public% ... ent%20(DEP/attachments/APC-HSC%20Ch2%20Mass%20Fatality%20Considerations.pdfQuoteBody decomposition slows once remains are placed in cold storage (between 37–42 degrees Fahrenheit). Bodies can be stored for up to 6 months in refrigerated storage, which may provide Medical Examiner/Coroner and funeral directors enough time to process all bodies in accordance with jurisdictional standards and traditional public expectations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20586093QuoteThe demand for laboratory-based teaching and training is increasing worldwide as medical training and education confront the pressures of shorter training time and rising costs. This article presents a cost-effective perfusion technique that extends the useful life of fresh tissue. Refrigerated cadavers are preserved in their natural state for up to 45 days with a daily working period of ten hours. Tissues maintain their color and natural consistency throughout this period. This new process for preservation of tissue opens the door to improved surgical training and to numerous research opportunities.
I do not see what the big issue is over a (method) of using an unclaimed/unidentified/donated body/cadaver(s) in this hoax. The alternative for one of these options of the bodies/cadavers is county cremation, and the cremation of a loved one who's family can not afford to get the body and has requested cremation. There is also a fee to get the ashes. Excerpt below. 8-)
The alternate for one of these unclaimed/unidentified/donated body/cadaver(s) is to help in a sting operation to bust bad people and the person/body gets to do a great service for humanity. I find that is more of a humane way for the bodies to go out than to be cremated because no one wants your remains. I have no clue what has happened to the bodies that were used after the fact but if you all believe Michael cares a great deal for humanity; than I am sure the person was treated with the upmost respect.
More bodies go unclaimed as families can't afford funeral costs.The weak economy is taking its toll, with an increasing number of bodies in Los Angeles County being cremated at taxpayers' expense. http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/21/local/me-unclaimed21QuoteJuly 21, 2009|
Molly Hennessy-Fiske
The poor economy is taking a toll even on the dead, with an increasing number of bodies in Los Angeles County going unclaimed by families who cannot afford to bury or cremate their loved ones.
At the county coroner's office -- which handles homicides and other suspicious deaths -- 36% more cremations were done at taxpayers' expense in the last fiscal year over the previous year, from 525 to 712.The county morgue, which is responsible for the indigent and others who go unclaimed, saw a 25% increase in cremations in the first half of this year over the same period a year ago, rising to 680 from 545.
The demands on the county crematorium have been so high that earlier this year, officials there stopped accepting bodies from the coroner. The coroner's office since has contracted with two private crematories for $135,000 to handle the overflow.
"It's a pretty dramatic increase," said Lt. David Smith, a coroner's investigator. "The families just tell us flat-out they don't have the money to do a funeral."
Once the county cremates an unclaimed body -- typically about a month after death -- next of kin can pay the coroner $352 to receive the ashes. The fee for claiming ashes from the morgue is $466. Christopher Agosta's ashes are among those waiting.
Last month, the coroner called his sister, Tarnya Baker, 41, of Amesbury, Mass., to notify her that Agosta, 43, of West Hollywood, had shot himself in the head. Although Baker was her brother's next of kin, they had not spoken since he left Massachusetts for California 15 years ago. Only after he died did she learn that he was in debt. He shot himself as sheriff's officials attempted to evict him. He left a note giving his possessions to the local AIDS clinic.
Baker said she wants to claim his ashes, but she and her husband have two children and a struggling glass-glazing business. During the last two years, they have had to lay off their two employees. "I know that I can't afford to handle all this," Baker said. "I can't afford to fly out there and ask questions."
Coroners and funeral directors around the country say they are seeing the same trend as cash-strapped families cope with funeral costs. Just claiming a body from the L.A. County coroner costs $200. Once a body is claimed, private cremations usually run close to $1,000, Smith said. Funeral homes charge an average of $7,300 to transport and bury a body in a simple grave, according to the National Funeral Home Directors Assn.
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 12:35:50 AM
The question here is whether MJ has been facing a real murder danger (at any time, not just 6-25-09), and therefore was his artwork was designed to portray this real danger through entertainment? Or was the danger just an artistic creation, designed merely for the sake of entertainment? Once we understand the “how’s” of the hoax, the answer to this question should be very clear. However, even before completing 7b, I want to show many reasons why this danger is very real; then the rest of 7b should be relatively easy to understand.
First and foremost are MJ’s beliefs about the Bible, the NWO, and the end of the world. I have already documented this significantly, so I won’t repeat it here (see Update #1, for example). For MJ, these beliefs are not just entertainment; they are very real. There is a real battle between good and evil in this world; it has existed for thousands of years, but it gets much more intense near the end of the world. And anyone who does not take sides with the evil powers, especially if they are rich and/or famous, will become prime targets of these evil powers (often referred to as the Illuminati).
On the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
For those who have been following the tweets from Paris, you know that she has tweeted several things about “secret societies”, the Illuminati, the eye-pyramid (with the Army of Love cutting the strings), the warning about the New World Order, etc. And MJ himself did the music video, while standing beside the NWO all-seeing eye {at 1:05, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q)}. And he has also talked about a “conspiracy”, more than once.
Are all these things just for art and entertainment, with no real threat? And even IF there was no real threat before such warnings were given: would not the warnings themselves generate a real danger? Would MJ put himself and his children in the cross-hairs of real danger, just for the sake of creating entertainment about a threat that was not real—that is, not real until the entertainment was created?
Can anyone read La Toya’s book (Starting Over), and come to the conclusion that Jack Gordon was not a real threat in her life—that she fabricated the stories, pictures of bruises, etc, just for entertainment? And if this was real, and not made up by La Toya, then it should be clear that the threats against MJ were just as real; she talks about the threats against both of them (herself and MJ) in the same context, and sometimes the same people behind the threats. In fact, it went beyond mere threats; when it came to the molestation charges, it was these same people who “got him [MJ]” (according to Jack Gordon).
“Latoya and Frank Cascio also wrote about 9/11 in their books!!! WHY do they brings this horrible attacks in their books, related to Mj, this is what I don't understand and it really disturbs me” {applehead250609, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959)}.
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
Speaking of entertainment: The Illusionist (which La Toya pleaded with us to watch, and “read between the lines”) is a good example of entertainment WHICH PORTRAYS A REAL DANGER! There was a real enemy, with a real intent to kill the person who “died”; and the plan of the illusionist included not only saving the life of the potential victim, but also exposing the criminal.
Probably everyone knows this by now, but let me remind you anyway: “Michael Jackson's FBI Files Reveal Death Threats” {http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml)}. Surely the FBI did not make this up, just to go along with MJ’s artistic creation of some imaginary enemy. The FBI was also involved with investigating La Toya’s situation (Jack Gordon, etc); during level 5, I already quoted important excerpts from her book {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0)}. So I think we have every valid reason to believe that the FBI is helping MJ in the death hoax, for more than just movie and entertainment purposes; they are helping to create the illusion, in order to expose the criminal.
“1. He just knew! He was famous and rich from the age of 5! The fortune hunters were always after him. He is intuitive! He is God-gifted. He just knows things! 2. He got hints from Elvis who also faked his death! He knew what happened to Elvis all his life because of his celebrity! and that Elvis had also received death threats! 3. He saw what happened to John Lenon and other celebs [MLK, JFK, Lady Di, etc]! he didn't want to wait for that happening to him too!” {SimPattyK, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869)}.
Let me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30).
Nevertheless, even though I have received great opposition from many: I have never received any opposition from the hoax insiders (family, TMZ, etc); quite the opposite, both the family and TMZ have supported TS/TIAI on several occasions {including the recent Too Short article, http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0)}. And this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
I’ve said the following before, but it is worth repeating. This is the only hoax forum that I have ever posted on, and it is also the only hoax forum or website that TMZ ever linked to in their blogroll; this blogroll is no longer on their home page, but it is still on their website and still has a link to our forum on it {http://www.tmz.com/blogroll (http://www.tmz.com/blogroll)}. For a long time, many have thought that TMZ was just another unreliable tabloid media source—that they have merely been playing with hoax believers, and don’t really have any inside information about the hoax. Well, TS has always supported TMZ; and recently, La Toya also supported TMZ: “But there’s more to the story guys, and Harvey knows that; Harvey Levin knows that (don’t you Harvey).” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM)}.
I could cite many more examples, both from TMZ and the family; however, I have already done that many times in the past, so I only added a couple of newer examples here. But I will close with the following, which sums it up in short. The whole world, INCLUDING HOAX BELIEVERS, need to wake up to the reality of the seriousness of the danger—not for the sake of fear and mind-control, as some people have claimed; but rather for the sake of awareness and preparation: forewarned is forearmed!
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 12:42:25 AM
TS says Blout was not driving?
If Blout was not driving then he must be in on the hoax because otherwise would he not pipe up and say the pic is fake? Those are clearly 2 white guys in the back.
Blount was riding in the long seat beside Murray, to the right of Murray (towards the front, Murray being towards the back). This would be out of the shot through the window (if the shot had really been taken on the fly).
Senneff said that he was at the head (airway), and Goodwin was doing the compressions. This fits what we see in the ambulance photo.
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 12:46:38 AM
I'm gonna go one further. The "missing" security footage. If there's a dead body laying there, or a life like dummy, and all the events proceeded just as they tell it why no security footage? Where'd it go? It being "missing" indicates there was something on that footage that no one was allowed to see, necessitating it's destruction. Would this footage existing not enhance the illusion of a death hoax? Dramatic footage released of Michael's last minutes attended by Murray in the bed, cut to scene of Paramedics rushing in, cut to scene of stretcher being carried out... wonderful stuff to convince the world AND The Illuminati that MJ was deader then a doornail.
FYI: no security cameras indoors, only outdoor cameras. I think you can find that in La Toya's book, Starting Over; although I don't have time now to find the page.
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 12:51:18 AM
@TS, if MJ was concerned about the Illuminati making a hit on him, we can rule out the death hoax completely for the exact reason you stated, once he is "dead" to the world, the Illuminati could make a hit on him with 100% assurance that NO ONE would be suspicious. He's already "dead", so he could be effectively removed in very clean, very organized, orderly fashion. MJ would know this, being the genius he is, and would have stayed SOLIDLY in the public eye FOREVER to make sure it didn't happen. To drop out of sight would be very dangerous.
You might have a good point here, IF the ONLY reason for the hoax was his own safety. But it is not; there are several very important reasons. So the question is which is safer: going to the hospital, or getting out of town?
Post by: Grace on November 29, 2011, 12:52:22 AM
1) Can you give as two or three nails to make us understand why we should believe the family now when they lied to us for 2+ years?
2) What is it that is different now from your statement two years ago to not believe a message to be true because of the messenger's name?
3) What makes you believe that the time is right now - and was not then?
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 01:01:10 AM
The German TV station did NOT debunk the coroner van video. I believe Jonell Star pointed out that the "Making of..." video was BS and had several differences from the original.
Although this is not part of the trip from Carolwood to the hospital, I am going to address it because it keeps popping up.
The supposed differences in these videos are no better than the supposed differences in the ambulance videos. They are angle and lighting, etc. For example the green door: some thought that one video the door was dull, and therefore old paint (at the LA coroner's garage); but the other video was a shiny green door, indicating a new paint job (RTL trying to copy the LA coroner garage). The reality is merely a different angle, one angle the light is reflecting off of the door, and the other angle it is not reflecting.
Also, very early after that video came out, it was shown that the license plate had the wrong font--did not match the real LA coroner van. I really don't plan to spend much time on this, but again thought I would reply since it keeps popping up. Maybe someone in the LA area can take a tour of the coroner's facility, and see the differences and report it back here. But it is not MJ, and not LA coroner's garage; if so, I am Tom Sneddon!
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 29, 2011, 01:03:18 AM
MJ's choice of backdrops for TII NEW YORK CITY...minus the twin towers...The 911 call = 9/11.
The bankers are the root of all evil...."Follow the money trial" has a new meaning now....
I did post a whole blog about this....he is kinda playing "A saviour"...and will save the world from doom.........but how can he take all of them on, on his own?? Is he depending on the ARMY of LOVE ???
Is he behind the collapse of News of the World and the Media Mogul....Rupert Murdoch??
If all these people decide to help, or are ordered to help, are they doing it voluntarily or are they being ordered by higher authorities ????
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 01:14:19 AM
@Adi thank you for posting this from above. Reading it again I think TS is an eccentric person who has all the time in the world at his disposal
Don't I wish! bounce/
Because this post from above SEEMS to support the corpse theory....yet TS said he never supported ANY of the theories.
The false theories that I was referring to were one such as these: multiple ambulances, green screen everything in the ambulance videos, the two videos were taken on different days, MJ sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, jumping out of the coroner van, etc.
Post by: bec on November 29, 2011, 01:27:27 AM
Quote
humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy.well of course I want to think that way. Who wants to believe anything else??
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 29, 2011, 01:29:59 AM
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2011, 01:31:04 AM
“Latoya and Frank Cascio also wrote about 9/11 in their books!!! WHY do they brings this horrible attacks in their books, related to Mj, this is what I don't understand and it really disturbs me” {applehead250609, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959)}.
There was a real enemy, with a real intent to kill the person who “died”; and the plan of the illusionist included not only saving the life of the potential victim, but also exposing the criminal.
...the FBI is helping MJ in the death hoax, for more than just movie and entertainment purposes; they are helping to create the illusion, in order to expose the criminal.
I could cite many more examples, both from TMZ and the family; however, I have already done that many times in the past, so I only added a couple of newer examples here. But I will close with the following, which sums it up in short. The whole world, INCLUDING HOAX BELIEVERS, need to wake up to the reality of the seriousness of the danger—not for the sake of fear and mind-control, as some people have claimed; but rather for the sake of awareness and preparation: forewarned is forearmed!
So MJ is getting help by the FBI right...but how do you know that they are really helping him...I know not everyone in these organisations are corrupt (e.g. CIA, Secret Service, FBI) but how do you separate the evil ones from the good ones?...did MJ just randomly pick good FBI agents, did they approach him or does the Jackson family have a family friend that is in the FBI?...I mean look at JFK and RFK they had people they could trust in the CIA and Secret Service, but look what happened to them.
What is MJ's agenda when it comes to the Illumanati/EOW is MJ just warning people now (through this hoax), when he comes back or is he just going to say this is what's happening in the world or is he actually going to expose things like 9/11 etc.?
You say the FBI are helping MJ expose the criminal, but what exactly is that...when MJ comes back are we still going to have unanswered questions about 9/11, the JFK, John Jr, RFK, MLK Jr assassinations, or is this something that MJ and FBI are exposing?
I might be misguided by the look of the questions I asked, but this is just something I am thinking, in relation to the criminal aspect.
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 01:32:04 AM
4 - Gives Michael hands on direction of his hoax.
Why would he need hands on direction, if it's all planned in advance? What is there to direct? Also, the Liberian Girl theme at the memorial and funeral indicate MJ directing, yes; but from BEHIND THE SCENES!
TS said that MJ wouldn't make a double take his spot as he wouldn't put someone else in a target position like that. And yet by believing MJ flew off on an unscheduled private jet, we are led to believe that Michael would put EVERYONE ELSE actively involved in the events of the hoax that day AT RISK??!? While he's safely tucked away on a plane or at his destination? I don't think so.
Why would anyone else be put at any extra risk? Would they kill for example one or more of the paramedics, just because they were mad that MJ hoaxed his death and got away? I don't think so.
Post by: ibelieveinmj on November 29, 2011, 01:40:08 AM
TS said.......The whole world, INCLUDING HOAX BELIEVERS, need to wake up to the reality of the seriousness of the danger—not for the sake of fear and mind-control, as some people have claimed; but rather for the sake of awareness and preparation: forewarned is forearmed!
I suppose I may be totally off target here and stones may be thrown but sooner or later the Bible (not religions) will be discussed and from what TS has said, is this where he is heading? What on earth could TS be talking about when he says the whole world needs to wake up to the reality? Why does he say that we are also in danger? Not just Michael and his family.
The signs of end times are becoming clearer and clearer and if we do not listen to the warnings how will we know it's coming? how will we survive? who will help us survive? do we really put our faith in God and his word or the word of our governments?
Now about the hoax, I believe this to be the purpose of it so it doesn't matter to me when, where, what or how "that day" happened but I certainly owe it to MJ for helping me see the light.
bearhug bearhug bearhug bearhug bearhug bearhug bearhug
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 01:44:32 AM
Maybe I'm just not getting it, and maybe I just need to wake up, but you're the one that taught me to ask these kinds of questions, TS, and doubt these kinds of sources and types of evidence.
Yes, we should question everything. But we should not only question if what we are told (or shown) is false, we should also question if it may in fact be true! I know that it can be very difficult to sort between the two; but that is the difficult process we have all been going through here. Nothing worthwhile comes easily.
But I really appreciate your help here bec, I really do--you know that. bearhug
Quotehumanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy.well of course I want to think that way. Who wants to believe anything else??
Right, nobody WANTS to believe anything else. But if the ship is sinking, it is better to realize it while there is still time to get into the lifeboat, than to go back to your quarters and fall asleep.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 29, 2011, 01:47:23 AM
http://gracethrufaith.com/ikvot-hamashiach/seven-major-prophetic-signs-of-the-second-coming/
Post by: lilwendy on November 29, 2011, 01:49:36 AM
This is why it is so imperative that we study our Bibles DAILY (like we’ve been told MJ has done for years).
When working at a bank, you don’t study all the fake money for fear of being passed a counterfeit. To arm yourself against false money, you study the REAL THING so when the false comes across your path, it is painfully obvious.
There will be dangers, toils, and snares. As our lives progress and we on this board go forward and impact the world, influence others, become leaders in our own rights, we too may find ourselves in the same life and death situations that MJ is in. That comes with the territory when you hold positions of power. However, a faith in God, and a belief that He has already won the battle, despite what happens in our earthly lives, will ready US for the battles we will face.
I have said this before, and I’ll say it again and again until my dying day: I am so proud to be a part of this army of LOVE that is to me really not an army but a troop or squadron that is part of the army of God fighting the battle between good and evil.
Lastly, I just want to say that movies, media, video games, etc. have made this spiritual battle so “Hollywood” that it enters the realm of FAKE. When we talk about spiritual matters, people pass it off as “you’ve been watching too much TV”. Don’t be fooled. Be wise. Understand what is REALLY going on. This world has a lot of evil in it but it also has a lot of goodness. We must be aware of both and in the end, TIME WILL TELL.
P.S. @2good2btrue thanks for the link!
Post by: bec on November 29, 2011, 01:53:46 AM
Quote
And this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
You make comments like this TS... and it makes me want to read between the lines. It is a movie, and it is a sting on the fans and the media... isn't it?
Post by: iamamjbeliever on November 29, 2011, 01:59:28 AM
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 02:00:38 AM
@TS
1) Can you give as two or three nails to make us understand why we should believe the family now when they lied to us for 2+ years?
How could they say MJ is alive, and still have any hoax? If they are lying when supporting the hoax with clues, then I guess you would have to believe that MJ was murdered, and they are being forced into giving hoax clues by the murderers (and yet they speak of murder far more directly than the hoax??). I don't know that I can give two or three reasons, just that you would think the family loves MJ enough not to be hiding a murder with false hoax clues.
2) What is it that is different now from your statement two years ago to not believe a message to be true because of the messenger's name?
I still supported most of that long post (about the real danger) with evidence outside of my username; but I finished by including that, because a few things have changed over the years--such as La Toya recently verifying TMZ. Nevertheless, I still do not ask anyone to accept anything, unless I back it up with evidence.
3) What makes you believe that the time is right now - and was not then?
Not sure what you are referring to, time is right for what?
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 29, 2011, 02:01:41 AM
The German TV station did NOT debunk the coroner van video. I believe Jonell Star pointed out that the "Making of..." video was BS and had several differences from the original.
Annie are you okay? michael-jackson/
with further reading of TS post now changed my perspective.
;)
Blessings
bearhug
Post by: PureLove on November 29, 2011, 02:09:26 AM
In this post, I’m going to be giving further evidence about one of the reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital (risk of being murdered). However, the information in this post will go beyond just that; it will also help us to wrap up 7b, and even help us a lot in 7c.
The question here is whether MJ has been facing a real murder danger (at any time, not just 6-25-09), and therefore was his artwork was designed to portray this real danger through entertainment? Or was the danger just an artistic creation, designed merely for the sake of entertainment? Once we understand the “how’s” of the hoax, the answer to this question should be very clear. However, even before completing 7b, I want to show many reasons why this danger is very real; then the rest of 7b should be relatively easy to understand.
First and foremost are MJ’s beliefs about the Bible, the NWO, and the end of the world. I have already documented this significantly, so I won’t repeat it here (see Update #1, for example). For MJ, these beliefs are not just entertainment; they are very real. There is a real battle between good and evil in this world; it has existed for thousands of years, but it gets much more intense near the end of the world. And anyone who does not take sides with the evil powers, especially if they are rich and/or famous, will become prime targets of these evil powers (often referred to as the Illuminati).
On the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
For those who have been following the tweets from Paris, you know that she has tweeted several things about “secret societies”, the Illuminati, the eye-pyramid (with the Army of Love cutting the strings), the warning about the New World Order, etc. And MJ himself did the music video, while standing beside the NWO all-seeing eye {at 1:05, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q)}. And he has also talked about a “conspiracy”, more than once.
Are all these things just for art and entertainment, with no real threat? And even IF there was no real threat before such warnings were given: would not the warnings themselves generate a real danger? Would MJ put himself and his children in the cross-hairs of real danger, just for the sake of creating entertainment about a threat that was not real—that is, not real until the entertainment was created?
Can anyone read La Toya’s book (Starting Over), and come to the conclusion that Jack Gordon was not a real threat in her life—that she fabricated the stories, pictures of bruises, etc, just for entertainment? And if this was real, and not made up by La Toya, then it should be clear that the threats against MJ were just as real; she talks about the threats against both of them (herself and MJ) in the same context, and sometimes the same people behind the threats. In fact, it went beyond mere threats; when it came to the molestation charges, it was these same people who “got him [MJ]” (according to Jack Gordon).
“Latoya and Frank Cascio also wrote about 9/11 in their books!!! WHY do they brings this horrible attacks in their books, related to Mj, this is what I don't understand and it really disturbs me” {applehead250609, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959)}.
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
Speaking of entertainment: The Illusionist (which La Toya pleaded with us to watch, and “read between the lines”) is a good example of entertainment WHICH PORTRAYS A REAL DANGER! There was a real enemy, with a real intent to kill the person who “died”; and the plan of the illusionist included not only saving the life of the potential victim, but also exposing the criminal.
Probably everyone knows this by now, but let me remind you anyway: “Michael Jackson's FBI Files Reveal Death Threats” {http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml)}. Surely the FBI did not make this up, just to go along with MJ’s artistic creation of some imaginary enemy. The FBI was also involved with investigating La Toya’s situation (Jack Gordon, etc); during level 5, I already quoted important excerpts from her book {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0)}. So I think we have every valid reason to believe that the FBI is helping MJ in the death hoax, for more than just movie and entertainment purposes; they are helping to create the illusion, in order to expose the criminal.
“1. He just knew! He was famous and rich from the age of 5! The fortune hunters were always after him. He is intuitive! He is God-gifted. He just knows things! 2. He got hints from Elvis who also faked his death! He knew what happened to Elvis all his life because of his celebrity! and that Elvis had also received death threats! 3. He saw what happened to John Lenon and other celebs [MLK, JFK, Lady Di, etc]! he didn't want to wait for that happening to him too!” {SimPattyK, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869)}.
Let me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30).
Nevertheless, even though I have received great opposition from many: I have never received any opposition from the hoax insiders (family, TMZ, etc); quite the opposite, both the family and TMZ have supported TS/TIAI on several occasions {including the recent Too Short article, http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0)}. And this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
I’ve said the following before, but it is worth repeating. This is the only hoax forum that I have ever posted on, and it is also the only hoax forum or website that TMZ ever linked to in their blogroll; this blogroll is no longer on their home page, but it is still on their website and still has a link to our forum on it {http://www.tmz.com/blogroll (http://www.tmz.com/blogroll)}. For a long time, many have thought that TMZ was just another unreliable tabloid media source—that they have merely been playing with hoax believers, and don’t really have any inside information about the hoax. Well, TS has always supported TMZ; and recently, La Toya also supported TMZ: “But there’s more to the story guys, and Harvey knows that; Harvey Levin knows that (don’t you Harvey).” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM)}.
I could cite many more examples, both from TMZ and the family; however, I have already done that many times in the past, so I only added a couple of newer examples here. But I will close with the following, which sums it up in short. The whole world, INCLUDING HOAX BELIEVERS, need to wake up to the reality of the seriousness of the danger—not for the sake of fear and mind-control, as some people have claimed; but rather for the sake of awareness and preparation: forewarned is forearmed!
/bravo/
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 02:10:48 AM
QuoteAnd this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
You make comments like this TS... and it makes me want to read between the lines. It is a movie, and it is a sting on the fans and the media... isn't it?
If you will accept a straight answer: yes, but not ONLY these things! And if you don't accept a straight answer, then what else can I say? Well, maybe 7c will also make it clearer.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 29, 2011, 02:15:06 AM
In this post, I’m going to be giving further evidence about one of the reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital (risk of being murdered). However, the information in this post will go beyond just that; it will also help us to wrap up 7b, and even help us a lot in 7c.
The question here is whether MJ has been facing a real murder danger (at any time, not just 6-25-09)
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
Speaking of entertainment: The Illusionist (which La Toya pleaded with us to watch, and “read between the lines”) is a good example of entertainment WHICH PORTRAYS A REAL DANGER! There was a real enemy, with a real intent to kill the person who “died”; and the plan of the illusionist included not only saving the life of the potential victim, but also exposing the criminal.
THANK YOU! I LIKE THIS PART AND TOTALLY AGREE NOW.
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 02:16:02 AM
The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
EXACTLY! It is coming together now, as I said it would. As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:
BINGO!
Someone suggested that the staff were sent away, so they would not take pictures. Really? In a life-and-death emergency, you are going to WAIT until the staff leaves, before taking MJ to the hospital, JUST SO NOBODY GETS A PICTURE????? In other words, it's okay if MJ dies before we get him to the hospital, just so long as nobody gets a picture in the process!!!???!!!
Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did. So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax. If MJ really died, this makes no sense.So that gets rid of MJ in person on the stretcher.....
Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.
TS, you were telling that NOTHING went to UCLA and Michael was NOT with us WAY BEFORE he arrived to the airport (by Jermain), meaning Michael left Carolwood way before staged 911 call, then he went to airport to fly somewhere.
Then WHY and what is the meaning to tell house staff to leave house NOT TO SEE WHAT WAS ON STRETCHER if you are suggesting NOTHING went to UCLA.
SEE, I FOUND INCONSISTENCY in your theory because now u say staff was let go so they could not take a picture of BODY on stretcher bringing down. I am confused; was there body or no?
Could you please quote or highlight where I said that nothing went to UCLA? I don't think I ever said that, if so it was a typo--or you are misunderstanding something. That is why it is good to bring up what you think are inconsistencies; it may in fact not be an inconsistency, but rather a misunderstanding of what I meant.
Post by: PureLove on November 29, 2011, 02:16:36 AM
QuoteAnd this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
You make comments like this TS... and it makes me want to read between the lines. It is a movie, and it is a sting on the fans and the media... isn't it?
If you will accept a straight answer: yes, but not ONLY these things! And if you don't accept a straight answer, then what else can I say? Well, maybe 7c will also make it clearer.
... which means the movie and the sting are the two reasons of the hoax but there are MORE reasons than just the two of them and there is also a very important and serious side of the hoax which is about illuminati, and the end of the world.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 02:17:15 AM
@Adi thank you for posting this from above. Reading it again I think TS is an eccentric person who has all the time in the world at his disposal
Don't I wish! bounce/Because this post from above SEEMS to support the corpse theory....yet TS said he never supported ANY of the theories.
The false theories that I was referring to were one such as these: multiple ambulances, green screen everything in the ambulance videos, the two videos were taken on different days, MJ sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, jumping out of the coroner van, etc.
I hate to repeat myself but I want 7b to come to a conclusion.
Now it is obvious to me what's happening in the world is against the natural way it would happen IF there wouldn't be "occult" interventions in the course of events. I am living with this "feeling" for many years, just by watching the governments generally avoiding the common sense measures that we know would work, but taking absurd measures instead.
Probably my training as an economist makes me pay more attention to these things.
I am 100% convinced of this "illuminati" thing, the secret societies existence, the strings attached to key people in high positions.
I can see Michael's struggle to hint to these things and more in his art. I am sure he did it because he felt he needed to do it to take sides with the ones who have no voice, because he loves people and justice. Michael is such a special human being, able to feel the sufferings of others.
Now I thought from the beginning there was a corpse and that FBI must be involved. I've always had troubles believing all the paramedics are in, also that all UCLA staff that saw the body is in.
The reasons why a corpse was needed were stated before many times, by many people. I won't repeat them again.
Of course I might be very wrong, so I'm still open to anything else that could be proved logical by other people.
Post by: heartwarrior on November 29, 2011, 02:20:30 AM
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2011, 02:21:28 AM
I remember you writing some months back.....earlier this year:
"was this hoax a prank, or a Thriller II reality movie, or an ARG, or a sting operation, or a Vendetta, or an NWO/EOW warning, or a wake-up call to the gullible public (don't believe everything in the media), etc--which is it? And the answer is: all of the above! It is something that people have never seen before, at least not the combination of these things and on this scale."
...
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 02:22:07 AM
If all this were true- someone who was after him, wanting to kill him, etc., then:
1. Would he reveal his children's faces to the world? The one who are after him wanting to murder him could attempt on his children.
2. Would he put his children up on an open stage in Cardiff in front of 50.000 people if he was afraid of death threats? The evils could make his children a target. A bomb could explode, the stage could crush, a shot from anywhere could fire, and murder the children. If this was that serious.
3. If Michael was afraid of being murdered, and the family would know, then would the family act so calm? They don't do or say anything besides doing concerts, writing books, doing interviews, reality shows, etc. You know what I'm saying? Would LaToya dance on the streets happy cause Murray has been charged? I know that if my brother was murdered I would never jump and scream of happiness that the foul guy was charged. All this would be a very serious moment.
4. If Michael was chased and wanted dead, would his children be so serene and happy and all smiles? Paris on twitter writes about all kinds of silly things like all adolescents, like we were also at her age. She doesn't seem afraid or consumed by anything. If my father was being chased and if there were murder attempts on him, I would not have any mood to be all over twitter all the time, writing about anything, because I would be concerned about what happens with my dad. I would have nightmares that he would be murdered, with all the family screaming "murder!".
Yes, Paris tweeted about Illuminati, NWO, but at the same time she doesn't seem concerned by anything. Sometimes she is on twitter all day, retweeting, quoting, talking teen things with others for hours, laughing, making jokes, she even retweeted a tweet that said "Songs u don't want to sing in jail: "It's raining men", and all that kind of things.
If Michael was in danger of being murdered, would all the above happen?
The children go freely everywhere without any concern, the are laughing an smiling, going to school, to StarBucks, going to movies, playing football, going up on stage in Cardiff in front of 50.000- wasn't there an attempt to murder in 1992 at one of Michael's concerts that FBI wrote about?
All these. Do they show there is a SERIOUS murder attempt?
Post by: scorpionchik on November 29, 2011, 02:23:04 AM
@TS
1) Can you give as two or three nails to make us understand why we should believe the family now when they lied to us for 2+ years?
How could they say MJ is alive, and still have any hoax? If they are lying when supporting the hoax with clues, then I guess you would have to believe that MJ was murdered, and they are being forced into giving hoax clues by the murderers (and yet they speak of murder far more directly than the hoax??). I don't know that I can give two or three reasons, just that you would think the family loves MJ enough not to be hiding a murder with false hoax clues.
CAN U ANSWER TO THIS TS ?
tHE FAMILY INDEED HAS TO SUPPORT HOAX, BUT WHY FILING LAWSUITS FOR WRONGFUL DEATH AND WHAT IS GOING TO BE THEIR ANSWER TO THAT WHEN MJ COMES BACK, AND HOW KATHERINE IS GONNA GET AWAY WITH IT?
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 02:25:15 AM
Well then TS - why not come up with 7c so we can deal with the real important stuff? Thank you for your guidance so far!
Okay, I was already thinking that. However, I will not put the puzzle piece up for 7b, because there are still things that I want to address (and maybe others as well). But we can now start discussing 7c. Aspects of the court: all real, partly real and partly hoax, all hoax.
Post by: heartwarrior on November 29, 2011, 02:27:24 AM
MUCH OBLIGED!! bearhug
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2011, 02:30:31 AM
Anyway - onto the start of discussions of 7C
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 02:32:30 AM
(http://www.iseesmileys.com/smileys/Upset/On_Fire.gif)
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
THANK YOU - i have been waiting for you to say this very thing!!!!
it IS serious. for MJ to turn his world upside down and change everything in his life, not to mention turn the fans upside down by designing his DH - there would have had to have been a serious resaon. its not for nothing. not for fun.
the entertainment of the DH is a by product which we enjoy but not the reason for it. again, just my personal opinion.
Post by: PureLove on November 29, 2011, 02:32:48 AM
Well then TS - why not come up with 7c so we can deal with the real important stuff? Thank you for your guidance so far!
Okay, I was already thinking that. However, I will not put the puzzle piece up for 7b, because there are still things that I want to address (and maybe others as well). But we can now start discussing 7c. Aspects of the court: all real, partly real and partly hoax, all hoax.
I will say it was partly real and partly hoax. Will be writing my reasons why I believe this when I get a couple of hours sleep.
Post by: diggyon on November 29, 2011, 02:34:25 AM
Yes, this is exactly it. The whole hoax is about waking us up, about saving the people when there is still time. I learned that from day 1. I have been here for 2 years now but actually I don't really post much as I prefer to read what the others think about rather than to say what I really think about. Right here I learned that Michael hoaxed his death to let the world know that there is a real danger we are facing, that there is a hidden agenda aiming to destroy our world..... most of my few posts are always about that issue....... I am really grateful to you and to Michael because you are raising this awareness, because you are warning the people..... it's not about entertainment like some have said. NOOOOO. There is a huge danger and we have to face it and even fight it if we can!!!!!!!!!
The message couldn't get any clearer!!!!!!!!!
Thank you TS.... and God bless you and I hope we all succeed in this mission
Blessings
diggyon
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 02:41:24 AM
...
All these. Do they show there is a SERIOUS murder attempt?
I think that you missed a couple of points.
First, MJ believes in God, and his faith keeps him from becoming paranoid--even though he understands the real danger. It may be the same for the children, although faith is an individual matter.
But I have ALWAYS said that MJ was not in an extremely high risk of being murdered; it is just a realistic danger, and one that should be treated with reasonable caution.
The bigger danger out there is not a murder ATTEMPT on MJ, no; rather it is SUCCESSFUL murder of thousands on 9-11, as well as many others in various cases (MLK, JFK, etc). I went over that way back in 2009, TIAI Revealed; and I don't need to repeat it all here.
Post by: heartwarrior on November 29, 2011, 02:49:07 AM
@TS - you are on fire today with all these posts!
(http://www.iseesmileys.com/smileys/Upset/On_Fire.gif)
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
THANK YOU - i have been waiting for you to say this very thing!!!!
it IS serious. for MJ to turn his world upside down and change everything in his life, not to mention turn the fans upside down by designing his DH - there would have had to have been a serious resaon. its not for nothing. not for fun.
the entertainment of the DH is a by product which we enjoy but not the reason for it. again, just my personal opinion.
Though it is undenyable that the entertainment factor is needed just to call peoples interest. Without entertainment unfortunable NOBODY would turn off their TV, smartphones, computergames or whatever menkind is dealing with in order not to face reality.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 02:52:37 AM
First, MJ believes in God, and his faith keeps him from becoming paranoid--even though he understands the real danger.
take refuge in the name of .... zephaniah.3:12 NWT
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 02:55:07 AM
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 03:00:24 AM
Yes, but believing in God is not putting your own children up on a stage where they can be a target for aything, believing God will protect them....
All these. Do they show there is a SERIOUS murder attempt?
I think that you missed a couple of points.
First, MJ believes in God, and his faith keeps him from becoming paranoid--even though he understands the real danger. It may be the same for the children, although faith is an individual matter.
But I have ALWAYS said that MJ was not in an extremely high risk of being murdered; it is just a realistic danger, and one that should be treated with reasonable caution.
The bigger danger out there is not a murder ATTEMPT on MJ, no; rather it is SUCCESSFUL murder of thousands on 9-11, as well as many others in various cases (MLK, JFK, etc). I went over that way back in 2009, TIAI Revealed; and I don't need to repeat it all here.
I never thought and never will, that all this is for entertainment. No way. But then again, an attempt on his life doesn't seem plausible with all I've wrote above, and I insist with the murder attempt because this is what LaToya especially supports till today.
If we should believe their words (Jermaine's airport slip, LaToya's book or Jermaine's book, LaToya's Illusionist), or what they say in interviews, why wouldn't we also believe what they say when they scream MURDER? Like on twitter when LaToya said weeks ago "He was MURDERED!!!"? If murder or attempt against his life wasn't the issue? You say to listen to the family. Well, the family also screams MURDER. Which one to believe? I said why I don't believe his life was at such stake because this doesn't hold water for me. Not at such extent. You say it wasn't either. But then again WHY do they scream MURDER ? This is my problem.
But do we choose to believe only what we want from their words?
Post by: bec on November 29, 2011, 03:00:56 AM
Yes, I accept.QuoteAnd this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
You make comments like this TS... and it makes me want to read between the lines. It is a movie, and it is a sting on the fans and the media... isn't it?
If you will accept a straight answer: yes, but not ONLY these things! And if you don't accept a straight answer, then what else can I say? Well, maybe 7c will also make it clearer.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 29, 2011, 03:02:36 AM
Quote
But I have ALWAYS said that MJ was not in an extremely high risk of being murdered; it is just a realistic danger, and one that should be treated with reasonable caution.
The bigger danger out there is not a murder ATTEMPT on MJ, no; rather it is SUCCESSFUL murder of thousands on 9-11, as well as many others in various cases (MLK, JFK, etc). I went over that way back in 2009, TIAI Revealed; and I don't need to repeat it all here.
But weren't we just told that he was in danger ??? But then again, if he has planned this for a long time, after the pepsi accident, then why go through all the trial, instead of just dying of a heart attack on the floor like Elvis Presley ??? Why involve Dr Murray if he was just a fallguy??
If you are insinuating that there was a serious threat to the audiences of the TII concerts and an attack was planned at one of the concerts ..?????
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2011, 03:07:43 AM
1. An investigation
2. Someone charged if it is a anything other than a suicide
3. Trial for the person who is charged
So even though MJ isn't dead, all these events have to happen such as a trial, in order for it to appear that MJ really did die...you can't just have everything else and no trial, it just doesn't make sense in the real world.
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 03:11:07 AM
DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL
Jury Goes Down the Toilet
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0)}
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
This was posted on TMZ after the jury made its decision, and before the verdict was announced. Since La Toya has confirmed that Harvey Levin knows what is going on (and we have seen that for a long time, anyway): they probably knew at the time that the verdict was guilty.
TMZ took the article down, shortly after it was posted on the hoax forum (which means that they were probably watching to see when we posted it here, and then they deleted it on TMZ). They did not go to all the trouble to create the picture, and post the article, for nothing (only to delete it shortly after). Therefore, what is the message that we are supposed to get from this article, in relation to the jury and therefore the court?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 03:15:22 AM
QuoteBut I have ALWAYS said that MJ was not in an extremely high risk of being murdered; it is just a realistic danger, and one that should be treated with reasonable caution.
The bigger danger out there is not a murder ATTEMPT on MJ, no; rather it is SUCCESSFUL murder of thousands on 9-11, as well as many others in various cases (MLK, JFK, etc). I went over that way back in 2009, TIAI Revealed; and I don't need to repeat it all here.
But weren't we just told that he was in danger ??? But then again, if he has planned this for a long time, after the pepsi accident, then why go through all the trial, instead of just dying of a heart attack on the floor like Elvis Presley ??? Why involve Dr Murray if he was just a fallguy??
If you are insinuating that there was a serious threat to the audiences of the TII concerts and an attack was planned at one of the concerts ..?????
One of my old beliefs is that Michael had to convince FBI he was in danger so they would help him.
Relating to 7c, I want to bring up the following TMZ article:
DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL
Jury Goes Down the Toilet
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0)}
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
This was posted on TMZ after the jury made its decision, and before the verdict was announced. Since La Toya has confirmed that Harvey Levin knows what is going on (and we have seen that for a long time, anyway): they probably knew at the time that the verdict was guilty.
TMZ took the article down, shortly after it was posted on the hoax forum (which means that they were probably watching to see when we posted it here, and then they deleted it on TMZ). They did not go to all the trouble to create the picture, and post the article, for nothing (only to delete it shortly after). Therefore, what is the message that we are supposed to get from this article, in relation to the jury and therefore the court?
Hoax court?
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2011, 03:16:30 AM
(pardon my "french")
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2011, 03:19:17 AM
Relating to 7c, I want to bring up the following TMZ article:
DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL
Jury Goes Down the Toilet
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0)}
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
This was posted on TMZ after the jury made its decision, and before the verdict was announced. Since La Toya has confirmed that Harvey Levin knows what is going on (and we have seen that for a long time, anyway): they probably knew at the time that the verdict was guilty.
TMZ took the article down, shortly after it was posted on the hoax forum (which means that they were probably watching to see when we posted it here, and then they deleted it on TMZ). They did not go to all the trouble to create the picture, and post the article, for nothing (only to delete it shortly after). Therefore, what is the message that we are supposed to get from this article, in relation to the jury and therefore the court?
They run out of toilet paper a lot...jks...what Adi said.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 03:21:45 AM
DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL
Jury Goes Down the Toilet
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0)}
Therefore, what is the message that we are supposed to get from this article, in relation to the jury and therefore the court?
either a) do not read what the media reports re: trial as it is misleading, just like the title of this article is or b) or that some of the testimonies are crap or c) the whole trial is fake = crap
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 03:26:07 AM
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
I need to point this out, and if anyone else saw it, then tell, to not say I made it up or saw things.
On the day of the verdict, with almost 30 minutes BEFORE the verdict was read (the verdict was read at 1:17), it was around 12:45- 12:50 when TMZ were streaming live from their studio and Harvey appeared for a few seconds on live stream, and he was wearing the white shirt with horizontal black stripes. 30 minutes BEFORE the verdict was read. I cought exactly that frame and I was already stressed waiting for the verdict, waiting for a not guilty verdict at that time, and when I saw Harvey's t-shirt I turned to my sister and I told her "oh god...the verdict will be guilty. Look at Harvey's t-shirt..", and she was "oh my god...".
Harvey either KNEW the verdict or if he didn't, then he suspected it?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 03:26:38 AM
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
I need to point this out, and if anyone else saw it, then tell, to not say I made it up or saw things.
On the day of the verdict, with almost 30 minutes BEFORE the verdict was read (the verdict was read at 1:17), it was around 12:45- 12:50 when TMZ were streaming live from their studio and Harvey appeared for a few seconds on live stream, and he was wearing the white shirt with horizontal black stripes. 30 minutes BEFORE the verdict was read. I cought exactly that frame and I was already stressed waiting for the verdict, waiting for a not guilty verdict at that time, and when I saw Harvey's t-shirt I turned to my sister and I told he "oh god...the verdict will be guilty. Look at Harvey's t-shirt.."
Harvey either KNEW the verdict or if he didn't, then he suspected it?
That's a good point.
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 03:27:38 AM
When I was supporting the murder theory, I did make a joke about the extra star would protect the court from getting into trouble for helping out with the murder of MJ; but that's all it was, a joke.
It's true, as bec pointed out in level 6, that the seals are mass produced. However, there are two sizes of seals in the court. All the smaller ones have 31 stars (like someone showed a picture of from Li-Lo's court); but all of the larger ones have 32 seals, it was just a mistake in design production--and yes, people are frequently that careless, and don't notice things like that.
If anyone is in the area, they could go check out in person what I am saying. But in level 6 pictures were already shown of the 32 star seal in the room that was NOT the Murray trial.
Post by: bec on November 29, 2011, 03:29:30 AM
Though it is undenyable that the entertainment factor is needed just to call peoples interest. Without entertainment unfortunable NOBODY would turn off their TV, smartphones, computergames or whatever menkind is dealing with in order not to face reality.
This is what I'm saying. Entertainment is the means why which you can change the world. MJ has direct access to communicating his message to the people without going through government or media filters by using entertainment, and what better manner then film.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 03:31:01 AM
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 03:32:36 AM
@TS you didn't only joke, you also pointed to the fact that the extra star on Michael album near his shirt with the same stripe pattern was not coincidence. Now you turn around that was a joke...But only after people found photos from 2004 with the 32 stars.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2011, 03:36:03 AM
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 03:40:34 AM
If the jury is fake (goes down the toilet) means the whole trial is fake......
Oh really? Then why does it say the JURY goes down the toilet, and not the COURT goes down? And what if jury decided innocent, would they still go down the toilet--just because the whole court is (supposedly) fake? Would it not make much more sense that the jury is NOT in on it, and whether or not they go down the toilet depends upon whether or not they were able to see the truth? If they decide innocent, then they do not go down the toilet; but if they decided guilty, then they go down the toilet? This would also explain why TMZ put the article up AFTER they made the decision (not at the beginning of the trial, nor even at the beginning of the deliberations).
... but I think not all people that testified are aware that the trial is fake or are in the hoax.
If the trial was all fake, just for a movie, don't you think the people testifying would have a right to KNOW IT???
Post by: simalves on November 29, 2011, 03:41:59 AM
Relating to 7c, I want to bring up the following TMZ article:
DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL
Jury Goes Down the Toilet
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0)}
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
This was posted on TMZ after the jury made its decision, and before the verdict was announced. Since La Toya has confirmed that Harvey Levin knows what is going on (and we have seen that for a long time, anyway): they probably knew at the time that the verdict was guilty.
TMZ took the article down, shortly after it was posted on the hoax forum (which means that they were probably watching to see when we posted it here, and then they deleted it on TMZ). They did not go to all the trouble to create the picture, and post the article, for nothing (only to delete it shortly after). Therefore, what is the message that we are supposed to get from this article, in relation to the jury and therefore the court?
So that means the illuminati will be flushed down the toilet right?
But my humble question, TS, is are we closer to turning the pyramid upside down than we were 2.5 years ago. I know our time is running out, but do the Anonymous movements, Occupy Wall Street, etc help MJ's plan?
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 03:43:56 AM
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 29, 2011, 03:44:13 AM
Where are we? 7c? What was in the ambulance?
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 03:44:28 AM
@TS you didn't only joke, you also pointed to the fact that the extra star on Michael album near his shirt with the same stripe pattern was not coincidence. Now you turn around that was a joke...But only after people found photos from 2004 with the 32 stars.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
smiley_spider smiley_spider
suspicious// suspicious// suspicious// suspicious// suspicious//
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 29, 2011, 03:45:47 AM
... but I think not all people that testified are aware that the trial is fake or are in the hoax.
If the trial was all fake, just for a movie, don't you think the people testifying would have a right to KNOW IT???
But if it's part of a sting it could be that some of the witnesses would NOT know it, right?
Post by: diggyon on November 29, 2011, 03:46:53 AM
Again, this could be wrong, and it could be right!!!!
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 03:48:10 AM
@TS you didn't only joke, you also pointed to the fact that the extra star on Michael album near his shirt with the same stripe pattern was not coincidence. Now you turn around that was a joke...But only after people found photos from 2004 with the 32 stars.
Same stripe pattern not a coincidence isn't the same thing as 32 seals means fake court; I also pointed out that the gavel represents the court, and that also was not a coincidence. But the gavel on the album doesn't make it fake court, anymore than the stripe pattern makes it fake court.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 29, 2011, 03:48:30 AM
I have talked in great length about this being a hoax with many facets in the TIAI Sept 27 thread. Just like the sting aspect being on the media, government, public etc. The definition of a sting operation is "a complicated confidence game planned and executed with great care etc.," which defines the hoax itself; so I do think the court is both hoax/sting by this definition and exposing what I have mentioned above.
I also understand that The Bible and MJ's belief in it is a huge part of his message (the coming end of the world, love etc.), as they (the Illuminati/NWO) are trying to turn people away from the existence of a GOD and the validity of The Bible. Your post about us living in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah before the flood is what my mother, who is a Jehovah's Witness, says to me all the time. That we must wake up before it's too late and people want to live believing everything is as you said; "hunky-dory".
As for the TMZ article, what Adi said :). Adding to what I said above about the court being both hoax and real (sting), it could be to expose the judicial system and the failure that leaving justice in the hands of a jury can go so wrong. If they took all of the evidence into consideration, Murray could have been found innocent, thus not going down the toilet. Yes?
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 03:49:50 AM
... but I think not all people that testified are aware that the trial is fake or are in the hoax.
If the trial was all fake, just for a movie, don't you think the people testifying would have a right to KNOW IT???
But if it's part of a sting it could be that some of the witnesses would NOT know it, right?
Right!
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 29, 2011, 03:52:38 AM
... but I think not all people that testified are aware that the trial is fake or are in the hoax.
If the trial was all fake, just for a movie, don't you think the people testifying would have a right to KNOW IT???
But if it's part of a sting it could be that some of the witnesses would NOT know it, right?
Right!
Well, then I will stick to my first thought: fake court with some witnesses as targets of the sting.
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 03:54:05 AM
But if the court was real, then who's hand is the one that put/did:@TS you didn't only joke, you also pointed to the fact that the extra star on Michael album near his shirt with the same stripe pattern was not coincidence. Now you turn around that was a joke...But only after people found photos from 2004 with the 32 stars.
Same stripe pattern not a coincidence isn't the same thing as 32 seals means fake court; I also pointed out that the gavel represents the court, and that also was not a coincidence. But the gavel on the album doesn't make it fake court, anymore than the stripe pattern makes it fake court.
-a pumpkin in plain sight
-an elephant in the room
-the verdict being read at 1:17 on 11/7 2011.
If all this was a serious sting would anyone put these there? who would need a pumpkin? you can celebrate Halloween anywhere, but that's a fucking court. Who would time the verdict being read at 1:17 on 11/7, who would make the jury say they decided upon the verdict at 11:00? TMZ posted that the jury has the verdict at 11:00.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 29, 2011, 03:55:23 AM
If the court was real, would the Judge, for example, act that way? Read the verdict and say "oh, there was a typo. It's written June 9th, and then Judge number 3 corrected it, you put June 25th right? and some squiggles after that? Ok". Or the toys. The alarm going on at 2:26 pm. The pumpkin in the room. The elephant in the room. Chernoff's "MICHEAL". Chernoff's "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".
You must have missed the post where TS explained the issue of entrapment...
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2011, 03:55:50 AM
If the court was real, would the Judge, for example, act that way? Read the verdict and say "oh, there was a typo. It's written June 9th, and then Judge number 3 corrected it, you put June 25th right? and some squiggles after that? Ok". Or the toys. The alarm going on at 2:26 pm. The pumpkin in the room. The elephant in the room. Chernoff's "MICHEAL". Chernoff's "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".
Just because the court is abnormal, does not mean it is totally fake. Can you show any law, which would make any of these things illegal in a real court?
Also, I have already pointed out long ago, that these things help avoid entrapment. But there is only a need to avoid entrapment, when there is a real sting.
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2011, 03:59:14 AM
I think the title meant to convey that the jury did not pick up on all the inconsistencies in the witnesses testimonies and if they had of it would have meant Murray was found innocent.
The blatant contradictions in testimonies was not picked up by the jury and perhaps they were influenced by the media and perhaps they were reading those forums, Facebook, blogs, Myspace, Twitter, (reading minds) etc etc which Judge Pastor told them not to at the end of every single day.
Hence they were skewed in their deliberations due to the media influence and found Murray guilty.
Instead of going on the evidence they went with the media?
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 29, 2011, 03:59:54 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 04:00:12 AM
I also understand that The Bible and MJ's belief in it is a huge part of his message (the coming end of the world, love etc.), as they (the Illuminati/NWO) are trying to turn people away from the existence of a GOD and the validity of The Bible. Your post about us living in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah before the flood is what my mother, who is a Jehovah's Witness, says to me all the time. That we must wake up before it's too late and people want to live believing everything is as you said; "honky dory".
im just going to say it. i really dont mean to be preachy, i really dont. i try and keep bible / EOW discussion in appropriate threads. also i may get shot down for this, nevertheless so be it. but i really think mj's purpose of DH is to do a mass preaching work to get ppl to wake up and turn around and look to GOD to attain salvation in the face of armageddon. i really do. i think DH and BAM will cause millions to give MJ attention and then he will send his message in an attempt to direct people to GOD in in turn salvation.
we are in the time of the end. look at the mess of the world.... god promises peace. but not til after armageddon. (end of the wicked - not the earth) MJ is reaching out to as many ppl as possible via the medium of DH / BAM as his form of preaching / warning work
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 04:02:01 AM
I don't know the laws, I can only say what I've seen in many other cases, not only high profile, but other cases too, on youtube. This is honestly what I've seen. And I've never seen such a joyful judge, jokes, toys, pumpkins.You know?
Post by: simalves on November 29, 2011, 04:03:17 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4x0xVMtimI[/youtube]
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2011, 04:05:32 AM
Wow, I had a good night sleep, trying to recollect my brain cells and look what happened! I'm afraid I lost them again :lol:
Where are we? 7c? What was in the ambulance?
7b hasn't been finished yet, there are still ends to tie....
So it's a fake case, real jury, key witnesses in on it or are at least aware the case is fake and other witnesses know nothing...but do we still have a sting?...is the sting on one of the witnesses because it doesn't seem to be on the Judge or lawyers, they seem to be in the know...
....I don't know what to think, I can't see there is a sting going on, I thought it was on AK but I doubt a sting very much.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 29, 2011, 04:08:19 AM
Would FBI play with this then, even if to avoid entrapment? Like toys, pumpkin, jokes? I don't know if FBI would play, neither satisfy anyone's jokes, be it Michael Jackson. You know what I'm saying?
I don't know the laws, I can only say what I've seen in many other cases, not only high profile, but other cases too, on youtube. This is honestly what I've seen. And I've never seen such a joyful judge, jokes, toys, pumpkins.You know?
It clearly offends you, that is why you don't believe it. The FBI is the one who has set up the sting, and therefore also have to avoid entrapment. That means that if they would make it all look real, and no one would be able to figure out it's a hoax, then they would have the problem that they could be sued for entrapment.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 29, 2011, 04:15:11 AM
Anna, it isn't a difficult concept to grasp. Its a hoax court to avoid entrapment but also entertainment for us ofcourse; and a sting to expose corruption.
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2011, 04:18:58 AM
Would FBI play with this then, even if to avoid entrapment? Like toys, pumpkin, jokes? I don't know if FBI would play, neither satisfy anyone's jokes, be it Michael Jackson. You know what I'm saying?
I don't know the laws, I can only say what I've seen in many other cases, not only high profile, but other cases too, on youtube. This is honestly what I've seen. And I've never seen such a joyful judge, jokes, toys, pumpkins.You know?
It clearly offends you, that is why you don't believe it. The FBI is the one who has set up the sting, and therefore also have to avoid entrapment. That means that if they would make it all look real, and no one would be able to figure out it's a hoax, then they would have the problem that they could be sued for entrapment.
Also Anna - perhaps those other high profile cases you watched were real cases and there really was a crime committed and there was not a sting element to the court? So you really can't compare them to this court ....it's like comparing apples to oranges.....or pumpkins to tomatoes.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 04:44:54 AM
So the trial is not fake. But the jury "goes down the toilet". This means because their verdict is wrong?
help /white flag/ /white flag/ /white flag/
If the jury is fake (goes down the toilet) means the whole trial is fake......
Oh really? Then why does it say the JURY goes down the toilet, and not the COURT goes down? And what if jury decided innocent, would they still go down the toilet--just because the whole court is (supposedly) fake? Would it not make much more sense that the jury is NOT in on it, and whether or not they go down the toilet depends upon whether or not they were able to see the truth? If they decide innocent, then they do not go down the toilet; but if they decided guilty, then they go down the toilet? This would also explain why TMZ put the article up AFTER they made the decision (not at the beginning of the trial, nor even at the beginning of the deliberations).
OK yes, I think that makes sense. The jury "goes down the toilet" because they weren't able to see the truth.
But how TMZ knew from before they published the verdict that it was going to be "guilty" WTF???? Maybe on of the jurors is in?
Please bear with me as I have troubles understanding English sometimes.
But now that I think about what you wrote, the jury was FREE to choose any verdict, I mean it was not planned that they will reach the "guilty" verdict :shock:
Yet the defense did such a lousy job that it was not so difficult for the jury to say "guilty". Maybe they did it on purpose suspicious//??
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 29, 2011, 05:33:47 AM
The most interesting witnesses during the Conrad Murray trial
1. Randy Phillips
2. Alberto Alvarez
3. Dr. Paul White, propofol expert
4. Dr. Robert Waldman, addiction expert
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 29, 2011, 05:42:44 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 05:47:03 AM
Tom Joyner (Tom Joyner Morning Show) is today making fun of the hoaxers. Obviously they are on the forum because they have quoted a lot of what we have revealed. They say we are delusional if we think that MJ is gonna moonwalk out the back room during the sentencing today.
maybe they are right to make fun...who knows...
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 29, 2011, 06:13:33 AM
Tom Joyner (Tom Joyner Morning Show) is today making fun of the hoaxers. Obviously they are on the forum because they have quoted a lot of what we have revealed. They say we are delusional if we think that MJ is gonna moonwalk out the back room during the sentencing today.
maybe they are right to make fun...who knows...
But doesn't that fact that the hoax generates more exposure, help with the entrapment issues ???
OMG! TMZ just added a link that I just posted earlier on in this discussion....the article was "The 7 signs of the second coming of christ"....Another new member mentioned it.......
I have had that link saved to my computer for nearly 20 mths...and just posted it because of the discussion of the eow and nwo..,.....I feel we are being really watched now. There were at least 18 guests, and 2 hiddent guests when TS was posting......
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 29, 2011, 06:53:53 AM
Post by: loyalfan on November 29, 2011, 07:18:21 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 07:27:56 AM
Tom Joyner (Tom Joyner Morning Show) is today making fun of the hoaxers. Obviously they are on the forum because they have quoted a lot of what we have revealed. They say we are delusional if we think that MJ is gonna moonwalk out the back room during the sentencing today.
maybe they are right to make fun...who knows...
But doesn't that fact that the hoax generates more exposure, help with the entrapment issues ???
OMG! TMZ just added a link that I just posted earlier on in this discussion....the article was "The 7 signs of the second coming of christ"....Another new member mentioned it.......
I have had that link saved to my computer for nearly 20 mths...and just posted it because of the discussion of the eow and nwo..,.....I feel we are being really watched now. There were at least 18 guests, and 2 hiddent guests when TS was posting......
Where they posted that link please?
Post by: luvandmissumike on November 29, 2011, 08:08:01 AM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 29, 2011, 08:30:21 AM
7a is most definitely a done deal ---> there was an ambulance that went from Carolwood to UCLA on June 25th
7b - although not fully complete yet, I'm leaning heavily on a corpse (that started out as a terminally ill patient). It is the option that poses the least amount of risk for MJ and for the hoax and it keeps those that need to be 'in on it' to a minimum.
7c - fake court or sting:
From very early on, I believed there was some sort of sting going on primarily because of the FBI's involvement/help in the hoax. If the FBI is involved, there is a sting. If there is a sting, there is also the need to eliminate the risk of entrapment---hence, the oddities in the courtroom (although this on its own is probably not a strong defence against entrapment) and this forum (if WE have been able to figure out it's a hoax---and therefore, Murray is NOT guilty---then anyone else could've/should've as well).
So who is the sting against? Because there was a trial and the FBI is involved, I tend to think that the sting 'targets' have to be limited to the people/entities that had something to do with THIS trial (i.e. it wouldn't make sense if it was against Coca-Cola cause they had nothing to do with this trial). The people involved are Murray (defendant), the DA's, the defense attorneys, the judge, the jury, and the witnesses called to testify. The entities involved are the court/legal system, the office of the DA, the medical field (doctors, pharmacies, etc), big business/entertainment industry (AEG), and the media. And to a lesser extent (probably much lesser, the fans).
I believe Murray, the DA's (Walgren at least), the defense attorneys and the judge were in on it (maybe even HAD to be), so they can be eliminated...as well as some witnesses (like Ortega, the paramedics, the UCLA staff, the phone company people, etc). As for the rest, I'm not sure.
TS made mention of the jury a few times in the Sept 27 thread and now here again in this thread by bringing up the TMZ article. IF we believe that the DA's, the defense attorneys and the court were in on it...then there could've been someone on that jury that was planted (since the jury is picked by them). What this possible 'planted' jury member's role was...I'm not sure, could've been for a few reasons. But I think the 'jury' is important in all of this.
I had mentioned in the Sept 27 thread about my being 'unsure' about AEG and their role in everything. Randy Phillips either knew about the hoax or he didn't. He's very difficult to 'read'...so I'm not sure what, if anything, he knew (but I've never got a good 'vibe' from him---but that could just be because I don't trust 'big business' lol). LaToya recently being vocal about Randy Phillips (specifically) as having something to do with MJ's 'death' is interesting. If she's telling the truth, then Randy was at Carolwood on June 24th, without MJ's knowledge. Considering it was just hours before the 'illusion' was set to begin...what was he doing there and WHO did he go see if MJ wasn't home?
There were a lot of great points brought up by different members in support of a sting in the Sept 27 thread. The problem I had was that all the possible stings that made 'sense'...didn't end up going anywhere (i.e. we saw 'hints' at possible stings but nothing really came of them). But maybe that's how a sting works...it's meant to be subtle before the sting. Kind of like the calm before the storm.
Hopefully the sting aspect will become more clear today. I'm thinking that once it is clear, a lot of the other pieces will make much more sense as well.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Grace on November 29, 2011, 08:38:00 AM
@TS
1) Can you give as two or three nails to make us understand why we should believe the family now when they lied to us for 2+ years?
How could they say MJ is alive, and still have any hoax? If they are lying when supporting the hoax with clues, then I guess you would have to believe that MJ was murdered, and they are being forced into giving hoax clues by the murderers (and yet they speak of murder far more directly than the hoax??). I don't know that I can give two or three reasons, just that you would think the family loves MJ enough not to be hiding a murder with false hoax clues.2) What is it that is different now from your statement two years ago to not believe a message to be true because of the messenger's name?
I still supported most of that long post (about the real danger) with evidence outside of my username; but I finished by including that, because a few things have changed over the years--such as La Toya recently verifying TMZ. Nevertheless, I still do not ask anyone to accept anything, unless I back it up with evidence.3) What makes you believe that the time is right now - and was not then?
Not sure what you are referring to, time is right for what?
Thank you TS.
I think you missed that I do not believe in "murder" nor "murder attempt" in the sense of "ending a life" but in a "metaphorical murder" if that makes sense.
I think you missed also that I did not read La Toya's book - and did such on purpose.
Same applies to all kind of twitter accounts or other means of publishing that I did not follow on purpose.
Any statement from any family member is not more valid than any other statement.
The more lies came up in the course of time, the more the family was actively involved, the less credibility their statements had.
Nothing strange or astounding - Michael most likely knew this and thought it through.
Michael probably also knew that when returning, many would even question his appearance to be his true self and would think of doubles or imposters instead.
We can only conclude that the reasons for the hoax were important enough to outweigh these embedded results.
Or else Michael does not care about what others think of him - which I do not believe, especially not after all this tremendous work. Still he must live with the fact that he hurt many folks out there to the bones - for all good reasons. But he will have to justify this - if not here then there.
About the court we had many many ideas already.
I say it was made a show that some did not even wonder about and that some witnesses did not recognize as such. Some did not realize it was about themselves and not about Doc Murray. The trial was a means to nail some folks down and document their statements under oath and in the public eye. In addition, the trial was a means to nail public attention on a cross.
This goes out to Michael, where ever he is turning the pages. Thank you Michael, you did an impressive good job.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rQJ6KQjDG0[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rQJ6KQjDG0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rQJ6KQjDG0&video=unblocked)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 09:05:27 AM
So the court is real but some of the court participants are in the hoax. Jurors are not in and they fail to see the truth, with a little help from the defence attorneys. The jurors should have questioned some things, at least judge's reaction at the objection that Murray is not a doctor, if not the other contradictions.
At the same time some think FBI is involved with a sting operation going on in parallel with Murray's trial. I wonder if the sting has something to do with the trial or they are completely separate things.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 29, 2011, 09:15:49 AM
This sting thing gives me headaches.
So the court is real but some of the court participants are in the hoax. Jurors are not in and they fail to see the truth, with a little help from the defence attorneys. The jurors should have questioned some things, at least judge's reaction at the objection that Murray is not a doctor, if not the other contradictions.
At the same time some think FBI is involved with a sting operation going on in parallel with Murray's trial. I wonder if the sting has something to do with the trial or they are completely separate things.
I think you and I are in the same boat Gina. We like things simplified...just list it for us and we'd get it. LOL
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 09:19:09 AM
This sting thing gives me headaches.
So the court is real but some of the court participants are in the hoax. Jurors are not in and they fail to see the truth, with a little help from the defence attorneys. The jurors should have questioned some things, at least judge's reaction at the objection that Murray is not a doctor, if not the other contradictions.
At the same time some think FBI is involved with a sting operation going on in parallel with Murray's trial. I wonder if the sting has something to do with the trial or they are completely separate things.
I think you and I are in the same boat Gina. We like things simplified...just list it for us and we'd get it. LOL
makes three of us ::D
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2011, 09:23:07 AM
Post by: Love4Michael on November 29, 2011, 09:50:00 AM
I had mentioned in the Sept 27 thread about my being 'unsure' about AEG and their role in everything. Randy Phillips either knew about the hoax or he didn't. He's very difficult to 'read'...so I'm not sure what, if anything, he knew (but I've never got a good 'vibe' from him---but that could just be because I don't trust 'big business' lol). LaToya recently being vocal about Randy Phillips (specifically) as having something to do with MJ's 'death' is interesting. If she's telling the truth, then Randy was at Carolwood on June 24th, without MJ's knowledge. Considering it was just hours before the 'illusion' was set to begin...what was he doing there and WHO did he go see if MJ wasn't home?
This is something that has been puzzling me too since she said it. That coupled with that brief glimpse of him walking into UCLA with what appears to be Thome Thome. How (and more importantly why) did they hook up if Randy "turned his car immediately around to follow the ambulance" as it was leaving when he arrived at the house. Makes you wonder if they were already together...hmmm. I could be wrong and I'd be the first to say so...but TT gives me the big time bad vibe!
Post by: monstertooty on November 29, 2011, 09:51:07 AM
I have discovered how corrupt the worlds governments are, how 9/11 was an inside job,, how the United States is a corporation rather than a country etc. etc...
I have also rediscovered my soul and learned how to truly love again despite several tragedies in my life. The message has been loud and clear and for me the hoax has been educational, uplifting and inspirational.
Finding clues and blogging has been wonderful escapism and has taught me to look beyond the surface to find truth. Believe it or not I truly believe I know what is coming with BAM and I am excited. There has been a measure of fear with all that I have learned but if I am right about BAM the I know in my heart that "there is nothing to nervous about." Thank you to all of you for making this all such a wonderful life changing experiance.
Post by: ilovemjforever on November 29, 2011, 09:56:25 AM
I have the same suspicions about AEG,i have believed since day 1,if there is a sting Randy Phillips and AEG are one of the targets.I dont trust him at all.He seemed to be nervous to me during his testimony,and we all know who he works for.Pure evil,imo.
I had mentioned in the Sept 27 thread about my being 'unsure' about AEG and their role in everything. Randy Phillips either knew about the hoax or he didn't. He's very difficult to 'read'...so I'm not sure what, if anything, he knew (but I've never got a good 'vibe' from him---but that could just be because I don't trust 'big business' lol). LaToya recently being vocal about Randy Phillips (specifically) as having something to do with MJ's 'death' is interesting. If she's telling the truth, then Randy was at Carolwood on June 24th, without MJ's knowledge. Considering it was just hours before the 'illusion' was set to begin...what was he doing there and WHO did he go see if MJ wasn't home?
This is something that has been puzzling me too since she said it. That coupled with that brief glimpse of him walking into UCLA with what appears to be Thome Thome. How (and more importantly why) did they hook up if Randy "turned his car immediately around to follow the ambulance" as it was leaving when he arrived at the house. Makes you wonder if they were already together...hmmm. I could be wrong and I'd be the first to say so...but TT gives me the big time bad vibe!
Post by: MissG on November 29, 2011, 09:57:31 AM
Imaginative Resume:
MJ alive -- went from LA to Bahrein (or somewhere else) -- Body belongs to a real person, may be the own thief or murderer wanna be --Why on earth would 911 have anything to do with MJ? WTF?? --
Illuminati only if with tomati, please...
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 09:59:39 AM
It's been amazing isn't it? All the illusions... /white flag/
Post by: Love4Michael on November 29, 2011, 10:26:28 AM
Post by: RK on November 29, 2011, 10:58:46 AM
It seems we were rather close to the truth of the hows of the hoax in it's early days, and for me, I began to complicate things throughout the the course of the next two+ years.
Thankyou for blowing out the cobwebs TS. As for the Biblical reasons for the hoax, this reminded me of a comment I posted way back in June 2010
Quote
Updates & Posts by TS / Re: TIai update #6: Michael & Elvis, DOuble-bam This Summer?It has been obvious to me since June 2010 that this has always been at the heart of the hoax. Thankyou for your patience with us.
« on: June 22, 2010, 09:40:01 PM »
Lately we've been looking at connecting the dots and when I was watching the movie 2012 again with some friends tonight, I heard this for the first time. In the movie, Dr Helmsley talks of the scientist from India who perished and that He was the man who connected all the dots. Then he went on to say open the doors so others can get on board the ark and be saved.
Was Mike the man who connected all the dots and realized that the only way to wake humanity up enmass was to hoax His death to get their attention. So they could be saved? I'm sorry to get preachy, but I'm thinking of a scripture in Mathew chapter 24 verse 14
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."
Mike said it's all of LOVE. Is this the reason for the hoax. He loves and cares so much that He wants everyone to have that chance?
ReplyQuoteNotify
Now...on to 7C...I will refrain from posting till I think more on the subject.
Post by: Andrea on November 29, 2011, 11:08:17 AM
4 - Gives Michael hands on direction of his hoax.
Why would he need hands on direction, if it's all planned in advance? What is there to direct? Also, the Liberian Girl theme at the memorial and funeral indicate MJ directing, yes; but from BEHIND THE SCENES!TS said that MJ wouldn't make a double take his spot as he wouldn't put someone else in a target position like that. And yet by believing MJ flew off on an unscheduled private jet, we are led to believe that Michael would put EVERYONE ELSE actively involved in the events of the hoax that day AT RISK??!? While he's safely tucked away on a plane or at his destination? I don't think so.
Why would anyone else be put at any extra risk? Would they kill for example one or more of the paramedics, just because they were mad that MJ hoaxed his death and got away? I don't think so.
I believe you said before that Michael wasn't in imminent danger that day (correct me if I'm wrong). But IF he was and a hitman was sent that day, that person's presence would be a threat to anyone there that day. Not that a hitman would be angered into killing someone else but still, I don't believe Michael would put anyone in harm's way, not if he knew there was a threat like that.
I don't think that was the case though (someone sent by TPTB that day to kill MJ). I guess what my point was (which I stated in a post afterwards to PureLove) was that the whole hoax is a risk and if Michael flew off, leaving everyone else to carry off the pre-planned events, the risk of the hoax being exposed was still present. Which means everyone but Michael has to take one for the team if there were any repercussions because he has deniability of not being there. What sort of repercussions, if any, I don't know.
I'm not desperately trying to hold onto the Live MJ theory for dear life, I just don't see other certain points that I had made in the post that you quoted from being debunked. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to make sense of everything and all the signs still indicate a live MJ to me. And for all of the WHY's of the hoax, Michael's presence makes sense, especially considering the prank, movie, ARG reasons on top of everything else.
TS, you mentioned the Liberian Girl theme and the thing with that is Michael was still in the room, just hidden above and behind the camera. He could've been easily hidden on June 25th by those surrounding him, by a sheet - WE'RE the audience and the majority of the world was fooled.
I guess what I don't understand (about the escape theory) is how he can be behind the scenes if he's not anywhere near the scene, no matter how pre-planned it was.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 11:42:08 AM
TS left us alone and Murray got 4 years :cry:
But he will be in jail only 2 years
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 11:58:47 AM
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 29, 2011, 12:10:45 PM
lots of song titles mentioned during the court case, Childhood, Privacy, Another Day
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 12:14:16 PM
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 29, 2011, 12:20:55 PM
what next court date?
23 January 2012
Post by: iamamjbeliever on November 29, 2011, 12:22:29 PM
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 12:23:49 PM
what next court date?
23 January 2012
I saw you said that. He goes to jail, so next date for what and what's the reason?
Post by: BeTheChange on November 29, 2011, 12:26:09 PM
But...
...
At this rate, maybe we can wrap it all up by the end of the weekend :lol:...wouldn't that be great! But something tells me that no matter what we come up with, the ending to the level will occur on a date that's already been predetermined (maybe Nov 29?).
It's possible that we could finish early.
However, we will finish no later than November 29--even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).
....I'm very intrigued as to WHY Level 7 was to finish no later than November 29. The level is obviously not finished....but then again, neither is the day.
But I would love to hear from TS as to the 'link' between finishing Level 7 and November 29.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: trublu on November 29, 2011, 12:27:22 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 12:30:27 PM
to discuss the details of exibit B - how they determined the amount for restitution 100.000.000 $what next court date?
23 January 2012
I saw you said that. He goes to jail, so next date for what and what's the reason?
I've just saw Jermaine pointing to the 'AEG needs to be investigated' sign....could they be the subjects of the sting?
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 12:30:45 PM
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 29, 2011, 12:36:28 PM
what next court date?
23 January 2012
I saw you said that. He goes to jail, so next date for what and what's the reason?
for financial restitution money he will pay to the estate for loss of earnings for the tour etc to the family and children.
Post by: applehead250609 on November 29, 2011, 12:48:44 PM
I'm just hoping the '4 years to get it right' aren't starting from now....
geek/
Post by: mjselfsweet on November 29, 2011, 12:52:58 PM
next court date 23 January .... Thriller released on 23 January 1984, deducted 43 days from court time 4 + 3 = 7,
lots of song titles mentioned during the court case, Childhood, Privacy, Another Day
It was 46 days credit given, not 43
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 12:54:15 PM
No, I can't believe. Michael is gone... Jesus I'm trembling...I can't even react, I'm petrified
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2011/11/29/1129-conrad-mug2.jpg)
Post by: Sarahli on November 29, 2011, 01:02:13 PM
Murray's MUG SHOT is on TMZ.
No, I can't believe. Michael is gone. Jesus... I'm trembling
How does this prove that Michael is gone??? This sentencing we all saw it coming and we knew already what Murray was facing. It's 100% part of the Plan. What's happened to everything that we have learned? all the clues? all our investigations? We already know that so much of what is happening is staged for the purpose of the Illusion. And we do not have to wait for Murray to complete his time in jail, TS told us already that it should end before 2013.
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 29, 2011, 01:10:20 PM
next court date 23 January .... Thriller released on 23 January 1984, deducted 43 days from court time 4 + 3 = 7,
lots of song titles mentioned during the court case, Childhood, Privacy, Another Day
It was 46 days credit given, not 43
Thank you, I had realised that, but not had chance to correct it as my computer feed keeps freezing till now.
Thank you for correction for the sake of accuracy.
;D bearhug
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 01:15:46 PM
Murray's MUG SHOT is on TMZ.
No, I can't believe. Michael is gone. Jesus... I'm trembling
How does this prove that Michael is gone??? This sentencing we all saw it coming and we knew already what Murray was facing. It's 100% part of the Plan.
What was still somehow weird was no mugshot. 2 years from now on means somewhere within 2013-2014 when every calculation and 4 years to "get it right" will be long gone. This has no logical explanation for me now.
How long can we say it's all still part of the plan...?
Post by: Grace on November 29, 2011, 01:19:22 PM
And that ad flying in?
MAKE.BELIEVE !
Post by: _Anna_ on November 29, 2011, 01:20:49 PM
Post by: Grace on November 29, 2011, 01:29:49 PM
Nobody should lose faith due to today's movie.
In fact, today was a much brighter day as to getting to the points than those weeks when we were almost falling asleep in the courtroom.
Today, some Harissa was in the room. Tension, emotions, pressure, loudness, judgement day.
I wonder what that orange shampoo bottle was about. LOL
Faith to everybody!
Post by: Sarahli on November 29, 2011, 01:32:43 PM
Murray's MUG SHOT is on TMZ.
No, I can't believe. Michael is gone. Jesus... I'm trembling
How does this prove that Michael is gone??? This sentencing we all saw it coming and we knew already what Murray was facing. It's 100% part of the Plan.
What was still somehow weird was no mugshot. 2 years from now on means somewhere within 2013-2014 when every calculation and 4 years to "get it right" will be long gone. This has no logical explanation for me now.
How long can we say it's all still part of the plan...?
Well maybe that we should see things from the right perspective. It's a hoax so what is going on in front of our eyes is part of this illusion. There is a plot here, and there is a beginning, a middle and an end to this Hoax story, the Movie has not ended yet. Considering all this, and the MILLIONS of clues, hints, whispers, nudges, winks, etc., from TS, Front, the Family, TMZ etc; there is absolutely no reason to doubt. The sentence doesn't mean anything in itself, what's important is the time needed by Michael to achieve the many goals he has to. Everything comes down to the Hoax and its purposes. No need to worry, we know the truth and this is what will prevail in the end.
Post by: bec on November 29, 2011, 01:35:03 PM
Post by: curls on November 29, 2011, 01:38:38 PM
Post by: trublu on November 29, 2011, 01:40:12 PM
Post by: bec on November 29, 2011, 01:41:09 PM
Post by: Grace on November 29, 2011, 01:41:22 PM
Well we failed to complete Level 7 before today... we got no puzzle piece. Perhaps this is our punishment.
What for???
Post by: Sarahli on November 29, 2011, 01:42:45 PM
The campaign got attention after the disappearance and is a steady companion ever since.
Nobody should lose faith due to today's movie.
In fact, today was a much brighter day as to getting to the points than those weeks when we were almost falling asleep in the courtroom.
Today, some Harissa was in the room. Tension, emotions, pressure, loudness, judgement day.
I wonder what that orange shampoo bottle was about. LOL
Faith to everybody!
LOL @ Harissa ... and I noticed this orange bottle/spray as well!! Faith to you Grace!!! bearhug
Didn't TS say level 7 would be done today, even if he had to do it by himself?
Yes he did. suspicious// Maybe that today is supposed to help us for 7c so he had to wait for the sentence?
Post by: bec on November 29, 2011, 01:43:41 PM
Post by: curls on November 29, 2011, 01:44:16 PM
Post by: mimi248 on November 29, 2011, 01:45:12 PM
Post by: paula-c on November 29, 2011, 01:48:17 PM
Post by: curls on November 29, 2011, 01:49:10 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 01:54:08 PM
What's happened to everything that we have learned? all the clues? all our investigations?
They went down the toilet :cry:
TS ?? /white flag/ BlackJack ?? /white flag/ Anybody home?
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 29, 2011, 02:13:01 PM
Post by: Sarahli on November 29, 2011, 02:13:52 PM
What's happened to everything that we have learned? all the clues? all our investigations?
They went down the toilet :cry:
TS ?? /white flag/ BlackJack ?? /white flag/ Anybody home?
Please Gina, keep the clues and all our investigations out of the bathroom, thank you! Their place is in a better and safer place.
Edit: sorry Souza didn't see your post.
Post by: Grace on November 29, 2011, 02:14:37 PM
Fedex would be used if the document is of essential importance, must be distributed by secured transport / with insurance or must arrive at a certain destination at a certain point of time (express).
Fedex is not being used for standard letters or is my brain fried already?
There was a Fedex van driving by after the family left, too.
Is it usual to write letters during sentence?
Today was a very interesting court day.
In fact, Judge Pastor emphasized several aspects in detail - which in this length and depth would seem unusual to me for elaborating the reasons for judgement. Judge Pastor said at least 3 times that the court does not have the legal authority to send Doc Murray into a state prison...
When listening, I tried to imagine other crimes and other defendants.
The subjects brought up against Doc Murray would indeed very well fit other cases (that did not see any court to date) and the points made were primarily moral and ethic reasons. Even if we agree to the importance of these topics as such, usually in court we will not talk moral and ethic but criminal evidence.
My impression was that Judge Pastor was not reading his specific reasoning but was holding a speech in claiming moral order to return. He got quite emotional today as everybody (but Mr. Walgren).
In addition, everybody had the words stuck in their throat today and made many mistakes while talking.
This was much jumping to the ears today.
I do not know too much about Cali law, but in our justice system, there are two separate lawsuits: a criminal one and a so called "private law" one. The first will get you the sentence for breaking the law and get you into prison or fines, the second is for compensation for the victims - if the family decides to go for this option.
But it's separate trials in separate courts. That made exhibit B absolutely suspicious to me.
I never heard of a compensation being filed and then discussed in a criminal court.
Therefore again I stick to: hoax court with some sting and documentation and public witness reasons where some did not realize that their contributions would have further consequences. White's and Shafer's demonstrations of knowledge were a priceless cartoon. Very entertaining and certainly not only this if one looks further.
Keep the faith, family. No reason to give up. bearhug
Post by: msgitm on November 29, 2011, 02:15:18 PM
So TS is in LA? Hmmmmmm
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 29, 2011, 02:49:20 PM
Any one else see this? Could we be witnessing part of the sting the "Law in California"???
afraid/ bangbang
Post by: mjselfsweet on November 29, 2011, 02:53:59 PM
1. the orange bottle shown, is a scent spray, just happen to be Hawaiian scent "aloha" : ) howdy!
2. Restitution date Jan. 23, same as "THRILLER" album release for Michael
3. Murray is "taken up on the roof" to stargaze??? WTH,, so does Tito, he used to always be "going up to the rooftop" and Paris her fondest memory of daddy,,"on the roof, looking at stars and lights of Vegas"
4. Finally a mug shot,, and the Sony ad flying in make.believe,,
a few observations I and others noted.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 02:58:40 PM
OK, now the judge...his little speech was odd. I have to consider that he might be in the hoax. I can't find good reasons for why a judge would become passionate while serving the law. He should do his job in an objective manner. He failed to do it today. What was that crap about the book of life for Murray and Michael? Or is justice in U.S. so much different than in the rest of the world?
And about the restitution money....are the prosecutors that dumb that they don't know the letter from the estate is not enough??? Of course there was a need for detailed calculations, why they didn't ask the estate to present them from the very beginning??
Ok, as TS probably won't be here earlier than 5-6 hours, I better go cry in bed now, hoping this is just a bad dream :(
Post by: fordtocarr on November 29, 2011, 03:08:47 PM
Who posts always around the same hours? I can't believe I've never noticed it before, stupid me crash/ crash/ crash/!! Just wanna say hello to my old "friend" >:(.
Are you talking about the person I was talking about on chat that posts in the morn or at night and not during the day???
OK, now the judge...his little speech was odd. I have to consider that he might be in the hoax. I can't find good reasons for why a judge would become passionate while serving the law. He should do his job in an objective manner. He failed to do it today. What was that crap about the book of life for Murray and Michael? Or is justice in U.S. so much different than in the rest of the world?
And about the restitution money....are the prosecutors that dumb that they don't know the letter from the estate in not enough??? Of course there was a need for detailed calculations, why they didn't ask the estate to present them from the very beginning??
I always have seen the money portion in a separate hearing!! Anyone ever see otherwise???
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 29, 2011, 03:14:14 PM
Quote from: TS_Comments
On the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
/bravo/
P.S. Anna! We've gone this far, and you want to believe Michael's dead because of Murray's mugshot??? That?! Over everything we've been through...?
Quote from: TS_Comments
On August 30 (2011), I wrote the following: “Anna, I don't mean to be disrespectful; but some people continue to be doubting and fearful, no matter how much evidence they get—and you seem to fall in that category. Most if not all of your questions have been answered already, if you have read all of my posts. Nevertheless, I would be happy to go over it again, and add a few more points, as long as you promise to start being more positive and ‘keep the faith!’ Otherwise, there is little point for me to answer these BAM questions; because you would just find something else to doubt and fret about.”:roll:
Post by: MJonmind on November 29, 2011, 03:22:01 PM
Quote
On the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
I was thinking from this, that perhaps all of us should realize TPTB (Illuminati) are out to "kill" us as well, so we are all actually at risk.
"Book of life for Murray and Michael"? And the restitution amount (Exhibit B) is impossible for Murray to repay. Sort of like the book of life in Revelation. We humans owe a debt to God that's impossible to repay. And Marlon says it's God who will judge Murray.
Grace, I noticed what the judge said too. "This court does not have the legal authority to actually send and imprison Conrad Murray in state prison. I do not have the authority..." Is this to let the court off the hook legally as well for hoax court. Sort of negating judgment?
Just one comment on all the convo with TS in the night, that was hard to keep up with, but fun.
It puzzles me that TS knew the seating positions of Murray and two EMT’s in the ambulance. Was he in there too? Senneff mentioned seating but did Blount?
TS
Quote
Blount was riding in the long seat beside Murray, to the right of Murray (towards the front, Murray being towards the back). This would be out of the shot through the window (if the shot had really been taken on the fly).
Senneff said that he was at the head (airway), and Goodwin was doing the compressions. This fits what we see in the ambulance photo.
Post by: beLIEving101 on November 29, 2011, 03:36:08 PM
Whether Murray spends legitimate time in jail, I highly doubt it, Im sure he’ll be locked down somewhere secret and likely spend very limited time actually behind bars, just can’t see it.
More and more Ive looked deeper into this hoax over the past year, learning in much more detail about the Illuminati-NWO-financial elite, people break down the gov. media, D.A, pharmaceuticals as problematic areas but everything essentially goes back to the same top order, the top of the pyramid, the people controlling ‘everything’ and Im confident by now MJ is trying to spead awareness of the World powers controlling us, the Illuminati-NWO whatever name you like. I am scared for MJ, the threat is real when you look at the real track record of some of these people. From assassinations of multiple presidents and political figures to White flag operations like 9/11 killing masses. These people funded and orchestrated both Wold Wars, the history is deep and lengthy.
The financial elite are the ultimate problem and I am intrigued what MJ’s plans are to reveal them, how can he spread the message and keep his family safe? Quite frankly, Im not sure he can ultimately help stop them, many have tried in the past, its not plausible unless everyone becomes aware of the situation. Occupy Wall Street is a start towards the awareness movement.
The Rothschild family, Rockefeller family are at the center of the financial elite. Look them up, they need to be stopped.
I looked at the family timeline of Rothschilds not too long ago and its interesting to see the role they’ve played in the last century and beyond. Take a look if you have time. Begins with the intro of Illuminati in 1770
http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm (http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm)
Post by: fordtocarr on November 29, 2011, 03:59:22 PM
TS(as I'm watching most of Michael's videos on the Visions collection ;) )QuoteOn the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
I was thinking from this, that perhaps all of us should realize TPTB (Illuminati) are out to "kill" us as well, so we are all actually at risk.
"Book of life for Murray and Michael"? And the restitution amount (Exhibit B) is impossible for Murray to repay. Sort of like the book of life in Revelation. We humans owe a debt to God that's impossible to repay. And Marlon says it's God who will judge Murray.
That's my take on it too. When they said..it don't just matter what was done in one chapter, HE ..the JUDGE looks at the whole book!! (life) AS in God will look at each person's book of life..one good act don't mean you will go free...(live forever). And Marlon is right too. They really did emphasize the repayment, which sorta became a joke actually, because there is unlimited amounts that Michael could be worth in the future..esp. since we DID find out he's worth more dead!! It would be impossible for prob. almost anyone to repay it.
Grace, I noticed what the judge said too. "This court does not have the legal authority to actually send and imprison Conrad Murray in state prison. I do not have the authority..." Is this to let the court off the hook legally as well for hoax court. Sort of negating judgment?
I thought I'd heard on HLN that this is a NEW law...just two months old, and it is prob. going to backfire in this case. So, two months ago we began the trial!!! Correct me, but didn't SNEDDON have some law/rule changed during Michael's trial also???
Just one comment on all the convo with TS in the night, that was hard to keep up with, but fun.
It puzzles me that TS knew the seating positions of Murray and two EMT’s in the ambulance. Was he in there too? Senneff mentioned seating but did Blount?
AH HA!! You caught that too!!! ;) I thought I'd just read something into it. It def sounded like he was in there!!
TSQuoteBlount was riding in the long seat beside Murray, to the right of Murray (towards the front, Murray being towards the back). This would be out of the shot through the window (if the shot had really been taken on the fly).
Senneff said that he was at the head (airway), and Goodwin was doing the compressions. This fits what we see in the ambulance photo.
Post by: ilovemjforever on November 29, 2011, 04:12:00 PM
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 29, 2011, 04:26:43 PM
By using a matrix system of numbers based on certain criteria I was released after 1 day of jail even though I was sentenced to 1 year. My matrix number was low enough to release me and allow my bed to be put to use by a criminal who was more of a risk to the public than I was. This was about 20 something years ago. The program is working for Oregon and it is saving money by reducing the amount of prisons having to be built and how many prisoners are actually needing to be cared for. Prison is a big business. Every prisoner costs a certain amount to be cared for and it is this revenue that influences some peoples attitude towards more prisoners more money.
My opinion is DA Cooley is thinking about that money aspect increasing and not to happy with the revenue loss by releasing prisoners because of the new law.
http://www.oregon.gov/CJC/overview.shtml
The Development of Oregon's
Sentencing and Corrections Policy
Quote
The Parole Matrix. The 1977 legislature mandated the use of a parole matrix to achieve equity among inmates so that similar prisoners would serve a similar length of time.4 The release decisions were to be based on severity of the crime committed and the offender´s "risk factor" that was based on criminal history and adjusted for aggravating and mitigating circumstances. The legislature also made it clear that it wanted the Parole Board to increase the length of stay as much as possible for the more serious offenders .
Increasing prison terms for serious offenders was accomplished by decreasing prison terms for the less serious offenders. These actions signaled the move from a rehabilitative model of "corrections" to a "just deserts" model of sanctions. Judges began to sentence less serious offenders more frequently to county jails. Although the maximum jail term is one year, under ORS 137.520, this was often longer than a less serious offender would have spent in state prison.
Post by: applehead250609 on November 29, 2011, 04:37:23 PM
Quote
Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
« Reply #1426 on: November 29, 2011, 02:35:50 PM »
“1. He just knew! He was famous and rich from the age of 5! The fortune hunters were always after him. He is intuitive! He is God-gifted. He just knows things! 2. He got hints from Elvis who also faked his death! He knew what happened to Elvis all his life because of his celebrity! and that Elvis had also received death threats! 3. He saw what happened to John Lenon and other celebs [MLK, JFK, Lady Di, etc]! he didn't want to wait for that happening to him too!” {SimPattyK, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869}.
TS what did you mean with FORTUNE HUNTERS :shock: ??? Are the same people who Evi and Randy Quaid talked about :idea:??? They also said about Michael and the real owners of his Neverland ,the justice sistem in Santa Barbara which is corrupt,and some RIVAL Companies who are trying to sabotage the stars,like for example Tiger Woods .Who is trying to take the fortune of rich people and why Arnie Klein also talked about IDENTITY TEFT?????It is true that Murray sold Evi Quaid Demerol ? Alot of celebrities were/are involved in big scandals and strange murders lately.Who is really profiting from all this madness,who????
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/09/exclusive-pi-says-evi-quaid-michael-jackson-had-drug-connection (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/09/exclusive-pi-says-evi-quaid-michael-jackson-had-drug-connection)
Randy and Evi Quaid interview exposing corruption
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDoXiKugwAw&feature=related[/youtube]
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 29, 2011, 04:44:37 PM
We have lost, forever, the continued musical genius and humanity of Michael Jackson. He was not only an icon; he was an industry in himself. We grew up with Michael and loved him as a brother. He was loved by millions around the world that kind of understood what he been through, and the torture, perils, troubles and tribulations that he survived with some sense of love and commitment to Humanity, Fairness, Peace, Justice and TRUTH.
Remember, Michael Jackson wasn’t afraid to call them by their NAMES-DEVILS. Behind the ILLUSIONS and SMOKED MIRRORS of the case against Dr. Conrad Murray, Michael’s enemies are busy dismantling all that he represented to World. They were not only after his valuable Beatles-Music Catalogue. They wanted his soul. They wanted to control his spirit, musical genius and capture his MESSAGE.
In a way, Michael Jackson was like Donny Hathaway. They wanted to take his soul. They wanted to control his spirit, musical genius and capture the MESSAGE of his music. Donnie told us in no uncertain terms that they were trying to get inside his head to steal and capture the chemistry of his musical genius. Donnie RESISTED. On January 22, 1979, Donnie was thrown to his death from his 15th-floor room window at the Essex House Hotel in New York City.
The battle wages on with the forces that slew Michael Jackson and his genius. Michael told us in no uncertain terms that they were going to kill him. Their quest is to enslave the soul, spirit and chemistry of people through music. We battle a more evil, violent and ruthless then ever before Luciferian New Babylonian Pseudo Kingship over the World
This is taken from a blog about the illuminati and AEG.........it is such a relevant bit of information, as it totally outlines "Who" is responsible for MJs (fake) death...or more so, how the illuminati wanted him dead, as he was to expose them on his TII tours......
Pieces of the puzzle are coming together now...
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 29, 2011, 04:48:22 PM
TSQuoteOn the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
I was thinking from this, that perhaps all of us should realize TPTB (Illuminati) are out to "kill" us as well, so we are all actually at risk.
"Book of life for Murray and Michael"? And the restitution amount (Exhibit B) is impossible for Murray to repay. Sort of like the book of life in Revelation. We humans owe a debt to God that's impossible to repay. And Marlon says it's God who will judge Murray.
Grace, I noticed what the judge said too. "This court does not have the legal authority to actually send and imprison Conrad Murray in state prison. I do not have the authority..." Is this to let the court off the hook legally as well for hoax court. Sort of negating judgment?
Just one comment on all the convo with TS in the night, that was hard to keep up with, but fun.
It puzzles me that TS knew the seating positions of Murray and two EMT’s in the ambulance. Was he in there too? Senneff mentioned seating but did Blount?
TSQuoteBlount was riding in the long seat beside Murray, to the right of Murray (towards the front, Murray being towards the back). This would be out of the shot through the window (if the shot had really been taken on the fly).
Senneff said that he was at the head (airway), and Goodwin was doing the compressions. This fits what we see in the ambulance photo.
So who was driving?
Post by: fordtocarr on November 29, 2011, 04:52:39 PM
TS.....phone home.....
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 29, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Good point Souza girl!!!!! Who was driving????
TS.....phone home.....
Michael was driving....that's why he couldn't back out of the driveway ....
Could you please read this...please.!!
Dr. Murray must have truly believed that once in a lifetime contact with MJ and the lucrative $150,000 a month exclusive contract with “This is It” AEG Live concert tour to care for Michael Jackson was one his Luciferian perks. Whoever drew Dr. Murray into a ring of secrecy deliberately bounded him to it with a Luciferian blood oath. They knew of his background and his tendency to be easily distracted and fascinated by young beautiful women with a sugar daddy life style, and blinded by ambition and money. They knew that their perfect “Patsy” and fall guy smoke screen for MJ’s assassination had to be a hapless Black man.
Lloyds of London insured AEG Live’s MJ concerts at London’s O2 arena. It is seeking to nullify the policy through the Los Angeles courts. AEG Live took out the policy two months before Jackson’s death in 2009 under an alias name. The insurance policy covered the promoters up to the value of $17.5million “if MJ failed to perform”. Lloyds claim that the promoter failed to supply vital medical details, including the ‘apparent prescription drug use and/or addiction’. They state that AEG Live should have provided full information on Jackson’s medical history. Lloyds had also sought information about Conrad Murray as MJ’s personal doctor. They claim that the information on Dr. Murray had been withheld from them since December 2009.[76]
In February 2009, Anschutz Entertainment Group (AEG) and Lloyds allegedly had MJ examined under an alias “Mark Jones” by Dr. David Slavitt, an ear-nose-and-throat specialist based in New York City, under that pseudonym insurance policy. Supposedly, Dr. Slavitt examined MJ and gave him a clean bill of health on the policy, but nobody appears to have a copy of that medical exam. AEG said that they don’t have it, and Dr. Slavitt isn’t talking.[77]
By June 25, 2009, it seems as if time was of the essence. It was only a matter of time before the real MJ had to be examined under the insurance policy, and his true medical condition had to be revealed to the insurer and investors.
Kenny Ortega, the renowned choreographer and director, director of MJ’s “This Is It” comeback concerts already had grave concerns about MJ’s health and his ability to perform. The week before MJ’s death, he observed that MJ showed up at rehearsals too ill to dance. Alarmed by what he saw, Ortega wrote to an e-mail to AEG raising questions about whether the shows should be canceled due to MJ’s health and mental condition. “Everything in me says he should be psychologically evaluated”.[78]
It was also only a matter of time before AEG had to release background information on Dr. Murray; and hire another Doctor and set of eyes to help Dr. Murray with MJ and a CRP machine as they had committed to do.
The secret hierarchy put Dr. Murray on a mission not unlike a Lee Harvey Oswald to save the day by secretly infiltrating MJ’s camp on a undertaking to save MJ from his enemies for the multi-million-billion dollar investment and potential from spin-off movies, television, books, magazines-merchandising opportunities in AEG’s Live This Is It London concert tour.
AEG Live‘s Co-CEO Paul Gongaware sweetened Dr. Murray’s deal to become MJ’s personal physician with $150,000 a month and the dream of opportunities, fortune and fame that awaited him in London. He told Dr. Murray even after selling out 50 shows, there were still 250,000 people waiting for tickets.[86]
On the evening of June 24, 2009, the good most faithful Dr. Murray had been lured to the Carolwood Drive in the afternoon by Michael Amir Williams. Williams told him that rehearsals had been cut short, allegedly, because of MJ’s business meetings. Dr. Murray took the bait and met MJ at the mansion at about 1:00 p.m. MJ couldn’t sleep. Dr. Murray and MJ were up all night. At approximately 10:40 a.m. June 25, Dr. Murray finally succumbed and had to administer Propofol to try to put MJ asleep.[87]
Dr. Murray was on high alert as he had been all night when he heard MJ coming through Propofol anesthesia heaving for breath at approximately 11:54 a.m. Speculation: He ran to aid MJ with oxygen. The oxygen tank was empty. He found the other two in the room rendered inoperative. Between 12:05-12:10 p.m., he screamed for the chef for help. “Get security”, he shouted.[88] At least 21 fresh oxygen tanks were locked in the security stack outside.[89] Security never arrived. She didn’t call security. There was no CPR machine to help MJ. Dr. Murray had requested one from AEG. It never arrived. Chief of Security, Faheem Muhammad had fortuitously left the premises.
At 12:13 p.m., Dr. Murray called MJ’s personal assistant on the phone, Michael Amir Williams. In a panic, he demanded. “Get here right away. Mr. Jackson had a bad reaction Get somebody here immediately”, Dr. Murray pleaded with Williams. Speculation: Williams knew exactly who that somebody was that he was talking about, Dr. Arnold Klein or Dr. Steven Adams, who drugged MJ with DEMEROL or other secret MK-ULTRA drug during the day of June 24.[90]
Williams called Faheem than Alberto Alvarez in the security trailer at approximately 12:17 p.m. At approximately 12:18 p.m., Alvarez rushed to house and upstairs finding Dr. Murray fanatic applying manual CPR to bring MJ back to life. Alvarez called 9-11 at 12:20 p.m.[91] Faheem Muhammad rushed into the room and began helping with chest compressions while Murray attempted mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.[92]
At approximately 12:27 p.m., paramedics arrive at the Carolwood Mansion. At 12:29 p.m., MJ had no pulse.[93] At 1:07 p.m., the singer was taken to Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center with Dr. Murray rode by MJ’s side in the ambulance, where doctors attempted a range of resuscitation techniques. Jackson was pronounced dead at 2:26 p.m.[94]
At sometime thereafter at the hospital after MJ had been pronounced dead, Dr. Murray had been up all night with MJ and should have been frantically exhausted from ordeal of MJ’s life and death struggle. He approached Muhammad, Chief of Security, for a ride to get something to eat. He refused. Dr. Murray soon thereafter approached Muhammad and Williams for a ride back to the Carolwood Mansion to get his car, they lied and refused to help him.
He looked around. MJ had died right in front of him which from his medical opinion had been a bad reaction to a drug that he didn’t administer. He had being isolated without help. He must have understood at that point that he had been setup from the beginning to be the “fall guy” for the death of the MJ.
Post by: applehead250609 on November 29, 2011, 05:10:27 PM
Good point Souza girl!!!!! Who was driving????
TS.....phone home.....
Michael was driving....that's why he couldn't back out of the driveway ....
Could you please read this...please.!!
Dr. Murray must have truly believed that once in a lifetime contact with MJ and the lucrative $150,000 a month exclusive contract with “This is It” AEG Live concert tour to care for Michael Jackson was one his Luciferian perks. Whoever drew Dr. Murray into a ring of secrecy deliberately bounded him to it with a Luciferian blood oath. They knew of his background and his tendency to be easily distracted and fascinated by young beautiful women with a sugar daddy life style, and blinded by ambition and money. They knew that their perfect “Patsy” and fall guy smoke screen for MJ’s assassination had to be a hapless Black man.
Lloyds of London insured AEG Live’s MJ concerts at London’s O2 arena. It is seeking to nullify the policy through the Los Angeles courts. AEG Live took out the policy two months before Jackson’s death in 2009 under an alias name. The insurance policy covered the promoters up to the value of $17.5million “if MJ failed to perform”. Lloyds claim that the promoter failed to supply vital medical details, including the ‘apparent prescription drug use and/or addiction’. They state that AEG Live should have provided full information on Jackson’s medical history. Lloyds had also sought information about Conrad Murray as MJ’s personal doctor. They claim that the information on Dr. Murray had been withheld from them since December 2009.[76]
In February 2009, Anschutz Entertainment Group (AEG) and Lloyds allegedly had MJ examined under an alias “Mark Jones” by Dr. David Slavitt, an ear-nose-and-throat specialist based in New York City, under that pseudonym insurance policy. Supposedly, Dr. Slavitt examined MJ and gave him a clean bill of health on the policy, but nobody appears to have a copy of that medical exam. AEG said that they don’t have it, and Dr. Slavitt isn’t talking.[77]
By June 25, 2009, it seems as if time was of the essence. It was only a matter of time before the real MJ had to be examined under the insurance policy, and his true medical condition had to be revealed to the insurer and investors.
Kenny Ortega, the renowned choreographer and director, director of MJ’s “This Is It” comeback concerts already had grave concerns about MJ’s health and his ability to perform. The week before MJ’s death, he observed that MJ showed up at rehearsals too ill to dance. Alarmed by what he saw, Ortega wrote to an e-mail to AEG raising questions about whether the shows should be canceled due to MJ’s health and mental condition. “Everything in me says he should be psychologically evaluated”.[78]
It was also only a matter of time before AEG had to release background information on Dr. Murray; and hire another Doctor and set of eyes to help Dr. Murray with MJ and a CRP machine as they had committed to do.
The secret hierarchy put Dr. Murray on a mission not unlike a Lee Harvey Oswald to save the day by secretly infiltrating MJ’s camp on a undertaking to save MJ from his enemies for the multi-million-billion dollar investment and potential from spin-off movies, television, books, magazines-merchandising opportunities in AEG’s Live This Is It London concert tour.
AEG Live‘s Co-CEO Paul Gongaware sweetened Dr. Murray’s deal to become MJ’s personal physician with $150,000 a month and the dream of opportunities, fortune and fame that awaited him in London. He told Dr. Murray even after selling out 50 shows, there were still 250,000 people waiting for tickets.[86]
On the evening of June 24, 2009, the good most faithful Dr. Murray had been lured to the Carolwood Drive in the afternoon by Michael Amir Williams. Williams told him that rehearsals had been cut short, allegedly, because of MJ’s business meetings. Dr. Murray took the bait and met MJ at the mansion at about 1:00 p.m. MJ couldn’t sleep. Dr. Murray and MJ were up all night. At approximately 10:40 a.m. June 25, Dr. Murray finally succumbed and had to administer Propofol to try to put MJ asleep.[87]
Dr. Murray was on high alert as he had been all night when he heard MJ coming through Propofol anesthesia heaving for breath at approximately 11:54 a.m. Speculation: He ran to aid MJ with oxygen. The oxygen tank was empty. He found the other two in the room rendered inoperative. Between 12:05-12:10 p.m., he screamed for the chef for help. “Get security”, he shouted.[88] At least 21 fresh oxygen tanks were locked in the security stack outside.[89] Security never arrived. She didn’t call security. There was no CPR machine to help MJ. Dr. Murray had requested one from AEG. It never arrived. Chief of Security, Faheem Muhammad had fortuitously left the premises.
At 12:13 p.m., Dr. Murray called MJ’s personal assistant on the phone, Michael Amir Williams. In a panic, he demanded. “Get here right away. Mr. Jackson had a bad reaction Get somebody here immediately”, Dr. Murray pleaded with Williams. Speculation: Williams knew exactly who that somebody was that he was talking about, Dr. Arnold Klein or Dr. Steven Adams, who drugged MJ with DEMEROL or other secret MK-ULTRA drug during the day of June 24.[90]
Williams called Faheem than Alberto Alvarez in the security trailer at approximately 12:17 p.m. At approximately 12:18 p.m., Alvarez rushed to house and upstairs finding Dr. Murray fanatic applying manual CPR to bring MJ back to life. Alvarez called 9-11 at 12:20 p.m.[91] Faheem Muhammad rushed into the room and began helping with chest compressions while Murray attempted mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.[92]
At approximately 12:27 p.m., paramedics arrive at the Carolwood Mansion. At 12:29 p.m., MJ had no pulse.[93] At 1:07 p.m., the singer was taken to Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center with Dr. Murray rode by MJ’s side in the ambulance, where doctors attempted a range of resuscitation techniques. Jackson was pronounced dead at 2:26 p.m.[94]
At sometime thereafter at the hospital after MJ had been pronounced dead, Dr. Murray had been up all night with MJ and should have been frantically exhausted from ordeal of MJ’s life and death struggle. He approached Muhammad, Chief of Security, for a ride to get something to eat. He refused. Dr. Murray soon thereafter approached Muhammad and Williams for a ride back to the Carolwood Mansion to get his car, they lied and refused to help him.
He looked around. MJ had died right in front of him which from his medical opinion had been a bad reaction to a drug that he didn’t administer. He had being isolated without help. He must have understood at that point that he had been setup from the beginning to be the “fall guy” for the death of the MJ.
I'm sorry to ask you this,but what are you doing here if you believe Michael is dead???? This is a hoax forum not a DEAD FORUM,or am I mistaken :? ????
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 29, 2011, 05:18:13 PM
TSQuoteOn the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
I was thinking from this, that perhaps all of us should realize TPTB (Illuminati) are out to "kill" us as well, so we are all actually at risk.
"Book of life for Murray and Michael"? And the restitution amount (Exhibit B) is impossible for Murray to repay. Sort of like the book of life in Revelation. We humans owe a debt to God that's impossible to repay. And Marlon says it's God who will judge Murray.
Grace, I noticed what the judge said too. "This court does not have the legal authority to actually send and imprison Conrad Murray in state prison. I do not have the authority..." Is this to let the court off the hook legally as well for hoax court. Sort of negating judgment?
Just one comment on all the convo with TS in the night, that was hard to keep up with, but fun.
It puzzles me that TS knew the seating positions of Murray and two EMT’s in the ambulance. Was he in there too? Senneff mentioned seating but did Blount?
TSQuoteBlount was riding in the long seat beside Murray, to the right of Murray (towards the front, Murray being towards the back). This would be out of the shot through the window (if the shot had really been taken on the fly).
Senneff said that he was at the head (airway), and Goodwin was doing the compressions. This fits what we see in the ambulance photo.
So who was driving?
There were 5, including the ones in the firetruck. Senneff, Goodwin, Blount inside, Brad or Jeff must have been driving the ambulance.
The point is how TS knows how were they sitting in the ambulance? Good question MJonmind.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 29, 2011, 05:20:31 PM
Where'd you get it?
Post by: suspicious mind on November 29, 2011, 05:35:46 PM
thank you so much
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 29, 2011, 05:41:32 PM
could someone kindly point me in the direction of the place where latoya confirms harvey or tmz ( :-[whichever) as ts has pointed out? i seem to have a vaugue memory of it and would like to check it out again.
thank you so much
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
at 0:25 ;)
"There's more to the story and Harvey knows that.. Harvey Levin knows that, don't you Harvey?"
Post by: MJonmind on November 29, 2011, 05:44:35 PM
Quote
In 1965, at the age of 24, he started The Anschutz Corporation and by 1984, Forbes magazine named Philip the country’s seventh richest man. His estimated net worth was $1 billion, tying him with banker David Rockefeller and computer giant William Hewlett. His courage in taking business risks and vision for each of his ventures earned him an even greater fortune. By the late 1990’s he was reported to be worth over $10 billion dollars.
Philip Anschutz is an extraordinarily wealthy man, however, in a September 6, 1999, profile entitled “Billionaire Next Door”, Brian O’Reilly remarks. “…one of the most interesting things about him is not that he’s worth well over $10 billion. It’s that he’s a genuinely nice guy worth more than $10 billion. He didn’t make his money by being a nasty, grasping, miserly bastard. Once he got rich, he didn’t turn into a twisted, weirdo billionaire like Howard Hughes or spawn a dysfunctional feuding family like the Koch brothers. As billionaires go, Anschutz is abnormally normal.” Indeed, according to a Denver reporter, Anschutz once “grumbled good-naturedly, ‘Why do you keep calling me ‘Billionaire Philip Anschutz’? My mother never called me ‘Billionaire.’”
If anything could top his business expertise, though, it might possibly be his commitment to Jesus. Philip is a devout Christian. He is active in his local Evangelical Presbyterian church as well as a wide variety of philanthropic causes. His wife, Nancy Park Anschutz, is the vice president of the Anschutz Foundation of Denver, aimed primarily at helping underprivileged children and their families. With nine-figure assets, this foundation sponsors everything from Christian sports camps, to hospital construction, college scholarships for needy students, and the preservation of the nation’s historic and artistic treasures.
At age 65, this Christian billionaire—the 33rd richest American and the 80th richest person in the world—brought his considerable courage and determination to bear on Hollywood. He has been quoted as saying that he entered the movie business because he wanted to stop "cursing the darkness" (Hollywood's violent and vulgar R-rated films) and start making family fare. In 2001, Walden Media was created and produces primarily G and PG rated family films. “Philip would never back an R rated movie,” said a spokesman.
Philip is a very private person and does not grant interviews. He is the chairman and owner of Anschutz Co., a firm that owns or has investments in companies in energy, pipelines, railroads, agriculture, real estate, film production, movie theaters,http://www.businessheroes.org/philip_anschutz.htm (http://www.businessheroes.org/philip_anschutz.htm)
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Anschutz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Anschutz)
Post by: ilovemjforever on November 29, 2011, 05:53:46 PM
I believe there is a strong connection of TPTB with the right-wing of Christianity, and connecting to Revelation scenario of one world religion. The "evil" of TPTB and the Illuminati go back further than this century, to the time of Jesus, and further back to Babylonian times, and back to the garden of Eden. "And Michael faught with the Dragon and won." Michael is surrounded by the enemy and may in fact be working WITHIN the enemy camp--the ultimate game of the gods--faking each other out. But God is on his side and he will win--it's already pre-determined. God's grand stage.QuoteIn 1965, at the age of 24, he started The Anschutz Corporation and by 1984, Forbes magazine named Philip the country’s seventh richest man. His estimated net worth was $1 billion, tying him with banker David Rockefeller and computer giant William Hewlett. His courage in taking business risks and vision for each of his ventures earned him an even greater fortune. By the late 1990’s he was reported to be worth over $10 billion dollars.I am confused,so does this mean Philip Anschutz is a christian and is on the good side and helped M.J fake his death,or is this article all bs.I never heard of any billionaire christian.
Philip Anschutz is an extraordinarily wealthy man, however, in a September 6, 1999, profile entitled “Billionaire Next Door”, Brian O’Reilly remarks. “…one of the most interesting things about him is not that he’s worth well over $10 billion. It’s that he’s a genuinely nice guy worth more than $10 billion. He didn’t make his money by being a nasty, grasping, miserly bastard. Once he got rich, he didn’t turn into a twisted, weirdo billionaire like Howard Hughes or spawn a dysfunctional feuding family like the Koch brothers. As billionaires go, Anschutz is abnormally normal.” Indeed, according to a Denver reporter, Anschutz once “grumbled good-naturedly, ‘Why do you keep calling me ‘Billionaire Philip Anschutz’? My mother never called me ‘Billionaire.’”
If anything could top his business expertise, though, it might possibly be his commitment to Jesus. Philip is a devout Christian. He is active in his local Evangelical Presbyterian church as well as a wide variety of philanthropic causes. His wife, Nancy Park Anschutz, is the vice president of the Anschutz Foundation of Denver, aimed primarily at helping underprivileged children and their families. With nine-figure assets, this foundation sponsors everything from Christian sports camps, to hospital construction, college scholarships for needy students, and the preservation of the nation’s historic and artistic treasures.
At age 65, this Christian billionaire—the 33rd richest American and the 80th richest person in the world—brought his considerable courage and determination to bear on Hollywood. He has been quoted as saying that he entered the movie business because he wanted to stop "cursing the darkness" (Hollywood's violent and vulgar R-rated films) and start making family fare. In 2001, Walden Media was created and produces primarily G and PG rated family films. “Philip would never back an R rated movie,” said a spokesman.
Philip is a very private person and does not grant interviews. He is the chairman and owner of Anschutz Co., a firm that owns or has investments in companies in energy, pipelines, railroads, agriculture, real estate, film production, movie theaters,http://www.businessheroes.org/philip_anschutz.htm (http://www.businessheroes.org/philip_anschutz.htm)
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Anschutz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Anschutz)
Post by: MJonmind on November 29, 2011, 06:03:08 PM
Post by: suspicious mind on November 29, 2011, 06:11:55 PM
thank you sweetheart.could someone kindly point me in the direction of the place where latoya confirms harvey or tmz ( :-[whichever) as ts has pointed out? i seem to have a vaugue memory of it and would like to check it out again.
thank you so much
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
at 0:25 ;)
"There's more to the story and Harvey knows that.. Harvey Levin knows that, don't you Harvey?"
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 29, 2011, 06:15:30 PM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20587.msg368781#msg368781Well then TS - why not come up with 7c so we can deal with the real important stuff? Thank you for your guidance so far!
Okay, I was already thinking that. However, I will not put the puzzle piece up for 7b, because there are still things that I want to address (and maybe others as well). But we can now start discussing 7c. Aspects of the court: all real, partly real and partly hoax, all hoax.
This is very IMPORTANT info. I am now stating that these dudes Shafer and White that are quoted in the wiki article are the very same who were on the witness stand. This wiki page is stating that this guy Reuben did the biggest case of fraud in the history of anesthesiology. This guy influenced how doctors treated patients and pharm companies who made the medicine. He influenced the FDA. The impact of what this guy did is now being seen in patients who took the drugs mentioned. This guy invented patients and never even performed the studies.There was a fair amount of discussion concerning the papers submitted for peer review, the process etc; it made me think of something I had read earlier. It's about the case of Scott Reuben who fooled the community of anesthesia during several years. His fraudulent work had apparently a great influence, which is quite worrying imo. I think the subject of pharmaceutical industries and how they process so that they influence the studies is underlying. Anyway I thought the information was interesting...
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Scott S. Reuben
Scott S. Reuben (born 1958) was Professor of Anesthesiology and Pain Medicine at Tufts University in Boston, Massachusetts and chief of acute pain at Baystate Medical Center in Springfield, Massachusetts before being sentenced to prison for health care fraud. Reuben was considered a prolific and influential researcher in pain management, and his purported findings altered the way millions of patients are treated for pain during and after orthopedic surgeries.[1] Reuben has now admitted that he never conducted any of the clinical trials on which his conclusions were based "in what may be considered the longest-running and widest-ranging cases of academic fraud."[2] Scientific American has called Reuben the medical equivalent of Bernie Madoff, the former NASDAQ chairman who was convicted of orchestrating a $65-billion Ponzi scheme.[1]
Reuben fell under suspicion when Baystate conducted a routine audit in May 2008 which revealed Reuben hadn't gotten approval for two studies he'd intended to present during the hospital's research week. On March 10, 2009 a Baystate spokeswoman announced that Reuben admitted to fabricating much of the data underlying his research. Reuben never conducted the clinical trials that he wrote about in 21 journal articles dating from at least 1996.[1][2] In some cases, he even invented the patients.[4] Although Reuben often co-wrote papers with other researchers, Baystate found that the other researchers did not know about or participate in Reuben's studies,[4] and their names were forged on documents.[1][3] The hospital asked the journals to retract the studies, which reported favorable results from painkillers including Pfizer Inc.'s Bextra, Celebrex and Lyrica and Merck & Co. Inc.'s Vioxx. His studies also claimed Wyeth's antidepressant Effexor could be used as a painkiller. Pfizer gave Reuben five research grants between 2002 and 2007. He was a paid member of the company's speakers bureau, giving talks about Pfizer drugs to colleagues.[5][6] Reuben also wrote to the Food and Drug Administration, urging the agency not to restrict the use of many of the painkillers he studied, citing his own data on their safety and effectiveness.[6]
"Doctors have been using (his) findings very widely," said Dr. Steven Shafer, editor of Anesthesia and Analgesia, a scientific journal that published ten articles identified as containing fraudulent data. [7] "His findings had a huge impact on the field."[5] He also described Reuben's actions as the biggest case of fraud in the history of anesthesiology.[4] Paul White, another editor at the journal, estimates that Reuben's studies led to the sale of billions of dollars worth of drugs which may have actually slowed down recovery times for patients.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Reuben
ps: maybe that the subject of level 7 will be about the verdict. Guilty or Not guilty? smiley_spider
Sarahli-This is very good info you have come across. I had no idea of this but look at the names. This is big. IF these are the very same dudes testifying now, then this info you found could be why these two have been called as expert witnesses. Exposure of corruption? smiley_spiderQuote"Doctors have been using (his) findings very widely," said Dr. Steven Shafer, editor of Anesthesia and Analgesia, a scientific journal that published ten articles identified as containing fraudulent data. "His findings had a huge impact on the field." He also described Reuben's actions as the biggest case of fraud in the history of anesthesiology. Paul White, another editor at the journal, estimates that Reuben's studies led to the sale of billions of dollars worth of drugs which may have actually slowed down recovery times for patients.
Shafer and White both published Rueben's work in their journals. Now if they did that and thought is was real how good are these guys when it comes to being experts?
They did prove that is was impossible for MJ to have kept injecting himself to stay asleep or overdose. They proved that in order for MJ to stay asleep there would have to have been a continuous infusion of Propofol because the amount Murray said he gave would not have kept him asleep for long.
Something to think about when deciding if there is a sting or not. Some of the sting will not be known to us but if this info makes the public aware of what the people [who we are putting our trust into] are REALLY about then that is surely worth it even IF we don't get confirmation. I wrote about this possibility beforeMy list could never get specific and name names because there is most likely never going to be full disclosure of who the targets are/were and who they caught with the sting.and recently TS spoke on the subject. Even though he was answering Anna about the 911 call timing he did addQuoteThe reality is that some things are complex, and most likely you will NEVER get answers to any and all possible questions on all of the fine details of how everything happened—not now, or even after BAM.Trublu wrote: “A simple explanation about the time being shown an reported as 12:21 would have been a lot simpler.”{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php/topic,20587.msg365855.html#msg365855}.
What if the explanation is NOT simple (which is the case with the 911 call)? The reality is that some things are complex, and most likely you will NEVER get answers to any and all possible questions on all of the fine details of how everything happened—not now, or even after BAM.
There is alot of info being over looked that does provide reasonable doubt to find Murray Not Guilty. The jury is real and they are deciding on Murray's Guilt or Innocence based on fake planted evidence. They are taking their job serious and that is why there was not a quick decision. Some of you have not taken the defenses case into consideration where they proved and Fleak admitted to tampering with evidence. She also did a shitty job collecting evidence.I am adding videos from E. Fleak's testimony because there is alot of info in her statements made during her testimony that show incompetence regardless of the fact that the death wasn't ruled a homicide until later. Even IF it was just a death scene when she went in I would think that it would be common sense to treat the scene as IF there may be foul play just in case it turns out that way. The evidence she could have documented on that day could be scrutinized later and would be helpful now during the trial.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFNPLfnNom8&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]QuoteUploaded by JustMeSTKK on Oct 6, 2011
Conrad Murray Trial - Day 8 - 06.10.2011
I am glad this is not me on trial and some of you deciding my fate because some of you are jumping to conclusions to fast and are not taking into consideration the doubts the defense provided. The DA did not prove his theory beyond a reasonable doubt. The IMPACT will be great if this jury finds him Guilty. It will be a travesty that the jury failed at taking it all in. If they find him Not Guilty then the system worked. This part of the hoax in my opinion is not scripted for the jury. This is a test of all tests and depending on how it turns out there will be lessons taught regardless of which verdict.
Here are the closing arguements [below] and pay attention to the first video when the baliff is talking without the camera showing the court. What would be the purpose of him saying that when the camera was not showing the court room?
If this is a hoax court and not real than that part of what he said should never have been caught. It would not be necessary for a fake court. The conclusion for me is the court and case are real with a sting and obviously fake because of MJ being alive, the false story and evidence planted.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmTE-Q1hdfg&feature=relmfu[/youtube]QuoteUploaded by JustMeSTKK on Nov 3, 2011The part where the judge is explaining the jury instructions and telling the jury about closing arguements is important. The DA and Defense are only providing their theory and over view of the case and should not be taken into consideration of evidence. Based on that, if the DA's case is reviewed based on evidence he submitted to prove the case of Murray's criminal Guilt- he failed. There is to much reasonable doubt to contradict his theories and the evidence.
Conrad Murray Trial - Day 23 - 03.11.2011
Judge Michael Pastor reading jurors instructions
Jurors instructions in written:
http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/jury-instructions.pdf
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBd_KUsGj0I&feature=relmfu[/youtube]QuoteUploaded by JustMeSTKK on Nov 4, 2011
Conrad Murray Trial - Day 23 - 03.11.2011
Prosecution's closing arguments
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApcNg3qNppM[/youtube]QuoteUploaded by JustMeSTKK on Nov 3, 2011
Conrad Murray Trial - Day 23 - 03.11.2011
Defense's closing arguments.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGlzfEPfhSg&feature=relmfu[/youtube]QuoteUploaded by JustMeSTKK on Nov 3, 2011
Conrad Murray Trial - Day 23 - 03.11.2011
Prosecution's rebuttal.
Judge Michael Pastor reading final instructions
Post by: ilovemjforever on November 29, 2011, 06:26:58 PM
I'm finding it extremely difficult to determine who's on the good or bad side with this, as if the dividing line is blurred nearer the top. All the world's a stage. What will be will be.I feel the same as you MJonmind.I am certain that M.J was a threat to the evil forces,and i am sure they wanted him dead for many reasons.My faith tells me that M.J is the one that GOD chose to be a messenger,and he is alive and well.These evil forces have taken many of our great leaders out,but GOD has the last say,and i truly feel that M.J was protected.I would love to hear from TS,right about now,it is needed.
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2011, 06:38:13 PM
I'm finding it extremely difficult to determine who's on the good or bad side with this, as if the dividing line is blurred nearer the top. All the world's a stage. What will be will be.I feel the same as you MJonmind.I am certain that M.J was a threat to the evil forces,and i am sure they wanted him dead for many reasons.My faith tells me that M.J is the one that GOD chose to be a messenger,and he is alive and well.These evil forces have taken many of our great leaders out,but GOD has the last say,and i truly feel that M.J was protected.I would love to hear from TS,right about now,it is needed.
I have to agree with you. After all this time I am still conflicted over who is on the good and the bad side in this.
There has been so much information the past 2+ years and alot of it contradictory so that it is hard to know who is helping MJ and who is trying to bring him down (perhaps many others along with him?).
I guess if it is a sting operation then the confusion is good in a way as it means who the sting is against is well hidden from them?
Post by: PureLove on November 29, 2011, 06:41:32 PM
Relating to 7c, I want to bring up the following TMZ article:
DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL
Jury Goes Down the Toilet
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0)}
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
The title says that the jury is going down the toilet but in fact what is going down the toilet is the illuminati 666 which the toilet papers represents here. Or the toilet papers represent what the jurors were going to use to clean the straight poop which is illuminati.
The toilet papers are going to clean the shit which is illuminati and the jurors wanted paper towels to clean the poop deeply. (defeating illuminati) So the jurors need something bigger to clean the poop and maybe that is US. Or maybe the jurors in this article represents us who is going to defeat the illuminati. I'm having different thoughts about it.
I'm still thinking how I can apply this "cleaning the mess" theory to Murray's 4 years in prison verdict tho. Or maybe I shouldn't apply it to Murray's verdict because maybe the article has nothing to do with it. suspicious//
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on November 29, 2011, 06:59:11 PM
Closing arguments began today in the ILLUMINATI v. Dr. Conrad Murray. In a matter of days, the window will close on Dr. Conrad Murray, the Most Worshipful Secret Servant of the Scottish Rite. If he is convicted, he is subject at most 4 (four) years of imprisonment. For the most part, Dr. Murray has honored his vow of Fidelity and Secrecy to the Brotherhood. For the masses, we have no Dog in the Hunt in the Fate of Dr. Conrad Murray. The Masters behind Michael’s Assassination weren’t called to answer. Philip Anschutz and AEG weren’t called to answer. We weren’t told the true cause of Michael’s death. Propofol! The ILLUMINATI’s Propofol expert, Dr. Steven Shafer, was drinking Propofol for breakfast. That’s how much of a danger that was. Dr. Murray doesn’t belong to us. He sold his soul to the Luciferian Brotherhood.
We have lost, forever, the continued musical genius and humanity of Michael Jackson. He was not only an icon; he was an industry in himself. We grew up with Michael and loved him as a brother. He was loved by millions around the world that kind of understood what he been through, and the torture, perils, troubles and tribulations that he survived with some sense of love and commitment to Humanity, Fairness, Peace, Justice and TRUTH.
Remember, Michael Jackson wasn’t afraid to call them by their NAMES-DEVILS. Behind the ILLUSIONS and SMOKED MIRRORS of the case against Dr. Conrad Murray, Michael’s enemies are busy dismantling all that he represented to World. They were not only after his valuable Beatles-Music Catalogue. They wanted his soul. They wanted to control his spirit, musical genius and capture his MESSAGE.
In a way, Michael Jackson was like Donny Hathaway. They wanted to take his soul. They wanted to control his spirit, musical genius and capture the MESSAGE of his music. Donnie told us in no uncertain terms that they were trying to get inside his head to steal and capture the chemistry of his musical genius. Donnie RESISTED. On January 22, 1979, Donnie was thrown to his death from his 15th-floor room window at the Essex House Hotel in New York City.
The battle wages on with the forces that slew Michael Jackson and his genius. Michael told us in no uncertain terms that they were going to kill him. Their quest is to enslave the soul, spirit and chemistry of people through music. We battle a more evil, violent and ruthless then ever before Luciferian New Babylonian Pseudo Kingship over the World
This is taken from a blog about the illuminati and AEG.........it is such a relevant bit of information, as it totally outlines "Who" is responsible for MJs (fake) death...or more so, how the illuminati wanted him dead, as he was to expose them on his TII tours......
Pieces of the puzzle are coming together now...
May I ask why you are speaking in the past tense, as if Michael is dead??
Post by: Suzy7 on November 29, 2011, 07:55:24 PM
Every reporter is discussing how this sentence could change the judicial system, given it is wrong that a person can kill someone and yet a sheriff in any County Jail can release them after only hours, days or weeks.
So basically the sheriff has more authority over a case in many states, than the judges.
The law isn't exactly new, only the addition of other crimes considered "less dangerous" as Im_convinced posted, such as manslaughter. This addition happened in the beginning of October (the 1st or 2nd).
Also, there again has been much emphasis by Cooley, on the "Dr. Feelgood's" of Hollywood and the whole of North America really.
So even though we don't have all of the finer details as to the "how's" of the hoax, we do have a general understanding in this thread IMO; along with the "why's" which we know are for much greater reasons than just a movie or revenge etc. I do think alot of good info has been added in this thread about the aspects in 7c, so hopefully TS will be here later to sum everything up :-<. I would also like to know the connection with wanting to end Level 7, today Nov. 29.
And btw, good post beLIEving101. And 2good2btrue that info is compelling, and it would make alot of sense, if he were actually dead lol. But I do think it sheds light on who the shady people in AEG could be, it also might explain the civil suits against them by the Jackson family. Which I think is what you were referring to Grace, when you mentioned the cases where families get compensation.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 29, 2011, 08:09:51 PM
Random, but if you google info on Cooley, theres quite a bit of info on him being a corrupt DA. How many corrupt people are lurking around? Jeez lol, don't know if there is any connection though.
And I'm confused about one thing on the Murray sentence, considering the LA Sheriff confirmed he isn't eligible for the "early release law" I posted about above. Therefore he says he will have to spend 2 yrs in jail? I thought previously he could get released any day. This btw, was mentioned on HLN tonight.
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2011, 09:06:32 PM
next court date 23 January .... Thriller released on 23 January 1984,
Just a small aside:
Yep - on 23rd January 1984 the song "Thriller" was released as the 7th single from the Thriller album...interesting because the number 23 is on the cover of the "Michael" album.
Maybe another "coincidence" lol
Post by: Jennie on November 29, 2011, 09:07:14 PM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 09:10:25 PM
I thought TS was going to finish the last levels if he had to by 29-11-11? Did I miss something? I know I havent been posting but I have been reading, I find this thread long enough as it is so I didn't want to post uselessly and I didn't have anything of value to bring to the table IMO. /pull hair/ /scream/no you havent missed anything... TS is missing... at large. just like a mr m jackson, lol.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 29, 2011, 09:33:55 PM
Post by: onthewingsoflove on November 29, 2011, 09:36:50 PM
I do not know too much about Cali law, but in our justice system, there are two separate lawsuits: a criminal one and a so called "private law" one. The first will get you the sentence for breaking the law and get you into prison or fines, the second is for compensation for the victims - if the family decides to go for this option.
But it's separate trials in separate courts. That made exhibit B absolutely suspicious to me.
I never heard of a compensation being filed and then discussed in a criminal court.
Therefore again I stick to: hoax court with some sting and documentation and public witness reasons where some did not realize that their contributions would have further consequences. White's and Shafer's demonstrations of knowledge were a priceless cartoon. Very entertaining and certainly not only this if one looks further.
Keep the faith, family. No reason to give up. bearhug
I'm in agreement with you here! Your lawsuit called "private law" is called "wrongful death" here in the US. A wrongful death lawsuit claims that the victim was killed as a result of negligence (or other type of unjust action) on the part of the person or entity being sued, and that the victim’s survivors are entitled to monetary damages as a result of the improper conduct. And again you are right it is separate trials in separate courts. That is exactly what happened in the OJ Simpson Murder trial, there was a criminal trial and after that the family filed a wrongful death lawsuit. As I listened to the proceedings today a red flag went up. Compensation to the family is not part of a criminal trial! More evidence that contributes to the fact that this is a tremendous hoax. Again I agree, great entertainment!
Stay blessed!
OnTheWings Of Love
Post by: onthewingsoflove on November 29, 2011, 09:57:50 PM
Did anyone watch the press conference on TMZ following the sentencing? with Walgen and the lady atourney, and another gentleman (dont know his name) they were saying that Dr Murray could only serve a very sort part of the sentence as it was up to the Sherrif how long he stays in jail!!!! gave an example of Lindsay Lohan who served a very short time, Dr Murray could be out in days!!! it is all a the disgression of the county Sherrif it is a problem of the "law in California" the Sherrif could release him when he see fit irrespective of the Judgement passed today.
Any one else see this? Could we be witnessing part of the sting the "Law in California"???
afraid/ bangbang
Yes I saw it. As I listened I heard that the 4 years would most surely be cut to 2 years, minus the 46 days already served. So now we are down to 1 year and 10 1/2 months! This fits this headline:L.A. Sheriff's Department spokesman Steve Whitmore says Murray will likely serve "a little less than two years." And I still say that he will get house arrest!
I still say this hoax has something to do with why Police Chief William Bratton resigned his position in August 2009.
Stay Blessed!
OnTheWingsOfLove
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 29, 2011, 10:14:05 PM
2good2btrue...what is this article from??? There are, even from a unbelievers point of view...a lot of holes in that story. It's quite an amazing theory/story though, although NOT what we know is true.
Where'd you get it?
http://mindcontrolblackassassins.wordpress.com/
I have been researching the people TS is talking about....the Illuminati...and this is what I found.. So amazing , that I almost understand what the evil forces are.....
Post by: Love4Michael on November 29, 2011, 10:30:29 PM
I'm in agreement with you here! Your lawsuit called "private law" is called "wrongful death" here in the US. A wrongful death lawsuit claims that the victim was killed as a result of negligence (or other type of unjust action) on the part of the person or entity being sued, and that the victim’s survivors are entitled to monetary damages as a result of the improper conduct. And again you are right it is separate trials in separate courts. That is exactly what happened in the OJ Simpson Murder trial, there was a criminal trial and after that the family filed a wrongful death lawsuit. As I listened to the proceedings today a red flag went up. Compensation to the family is not part of a criminal trial! More evidence that contributes to the fact that this is a tremendous hoax. Again I agree, great entertainment!
Stay blessed!
OnTheWings Of Love
If I'm not mistaken...the Civil Suit was filed by attorneys for Ms. Katherine and the children against AEG and not Murray...therefore an imposition of compensation from Murray would not even be available during that case. Restitution is often part of the sentencing for criminals having been found guilty of crimes committed...though not often are they in the staggering amount that was stated in this case. Financial responsibility of a guilty person is part and parcel of their imposed punishment at sentencing...not just their period and location of incarceration. You heard for example the $800+$30+$40 fines/costs/assessments that Judge Pastor DID impose today. He deferred the matter of victim/survivor compensation due only to lack of specific details regarding how the calculations were made by the Estate that resulted in the $1.2M figure for actual expenses and future revenue. He's just requesting a more detailed itemization than what they provided for today's hearing.
Post by: bec on November 29, 2011, 11:08:32 PM
Quote
1-7. Why Would the “Return” Depend on Hoaxers?
Several have asked: why would the timing of the MJ return be dependent (at least partly) upon few thousand hoax believers, and their understanding/accepting the TIAI information? A simple answer is that the reaction of the few before the return, can be a pretty good indicator of the reaction of the many after the return
{http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1991}.
But think about it. After returning, MJ can speak publicly about the environment and other issues related to healing the world; but with some aspects, well I think you can figure things out. As soon as MJ returns, there will be a stampede on all the hoax forums; there will be tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands, suddenly interested in what we have been investigating and saying all along. So if we hoax believers now are united on the reasons for the hoax: it will be much more effective when others come asking questions, than if we are all confused and disagreeing on the reasons for the hoax.
Here is how Mo put it: “It's a process to make people AWARE of what is going on. If you don't research, read, learn and understand, you won't become aware. If S.T.U.D.Y., TS or any Anonymous poster would have told you plain out who he/she is and where all the info he/she has came from, you would not have read the full explanation and wouldn't have learned anything. TIAI pointed out to conspiracies and NWO, and those issues were rejected by a lot of people until TIAI pointed out to them. Me? Guilty as charged... I skipped the ‘Illuminati’ threads as well until TIAI forced me to look into this whole issue. After researching it, and not reading up on the conspiracies and NWO only, a lot of things became clear to me.” {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1936&start=75}
So if there are any questions or objections that I have not addressed in this thread, please post them in the replies below; and I will answer them directly right here in the replies (I will watch this thread pretty closely, for the next week or two, and respond to things as needed—so as to help clear the way as far as possible for a speedy “Return”).
:? look I may have screwed this up for everyone with my pushing the Live MJ theory yesterday into the late night. I was just reviewing some information and happened upon TS's first update. This quote was 1-7 posted on 1/12/2010, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=3391.msg52818#msg52818
That's sort of freaky. What would you guys do if it was all my fault? /overreacting/
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 11:25:30 PM
:? look I may have screwed this up for everyone with my pushing the Live MJ theory yesterday into the late night. I was just reviewing some information and happened upon TS's first update. This quote was 1-7 posted on 1/12/2010, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=3391.msg52818#msg52818
That's sort of freaky. What would you guys do if it was all my fault? /overreacting/
@ BEC - i have also previously posted in the "1 million hits for thriller on YT" thread the following comment abt a month ago, i was also referring to 1-7 (yes i did go back and read them all ;) )...
this is brilliant. so happy the goal was reached. if only these 1000000 people joined the army of L.O.V.E
mj's bam could be dependant on how much support he has and people are gathered around him. perhaps bam date not yet set, and he will decide once he has enough support and people who are ready to stand by his side. dunno overthinking perhaps.
been reading some really old TS posts back from 2010.
perhaps we are being tested... courtcase was interactive - Jackolantern, rubbish bin, etc.... perhaps bam is too... we may be the guinea pigs..
if it was your fault bec - you better do an "MJ" and dissapear! lol jk. ;)
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2011, 11:26:43 PM
Post by: Heartsong on November 29, 2011, 11:29:42 PM
Here are my thoughts. Please feel free to add to, take from or totally trash. I know I may be off the track but would appreciate any feedback.
Many say MJ would not have allowed an innocent Murray go to jail yet we now have Murray in jail. To me that says he was indeed guilty. This is how.
Murray was bribed by (?AEG?) to do away with Michael as Murray was in a trusted position with means at his disposal. The reasons Michael was wanted dead have been discussed here so I will not go over that again. AEG agreed to surreptitously cover all Murray's murder plot expenses up until such time as Michael signed the contract. This would explain how Murray afforded to pay for all the meds delivered to him since it was clear he had had no income since starting full time with MJ in April. Of course it was imperative Michael did not find out.
CM then commenced to anaesthetise Michael nightly for 2 months (and I'm not even sold on the fact that MJ asked to be given propofol. Jermaine: "Someone was poisoning him") while pretending to be someone with Michael's best interests at heart. MJ loses weight and becomes increasingly disorientated, tired and confused. Michael becomes alarmed and I think at this stage he secretly talks to Jermaine about his suspicions that CM is attempting to kill him and make it look like an overdose (CM's tape recording "insurance policy" plus all the empty medication bottles CM leaves laying around). MJ refuses to sign the contract and confronts Murray who, consumed with guilt and the fear of being arrested for attempted murder, discloses the whole sordid deal. But now both their lives are in danger. Murray must continue the murder plot or risk being killed himself for what he knows and MJ knows that no matter what he does eventually "they" will get him, so together they plan the hoax death.
Murray agrees to take the rap knowing that in custody he will be safe and hoping that while in custody AEG will come under the microscope via the family. Murray also wishes to redeem himself. A chance the real Judas never got.
Murray's story had to be carefully scripted and this would explain why he refused to stand in court, for fear he would be asked a question that would cause him to waver from the script (documentary) or perjure himself.
The plan had to involve the least number of people, one of the bodyguards (Alvarez? To orchestrate calls and staff), a terminally ill patient who has agreed to help Michael and Murray (because too many people would need to know with the other options, especially the "nothing" and cadaver ones), Jermaine (because of his "airport" comment) and the coroner (because the report would have to be falsified).
The night of the murder MJ returns to Carolwood with his bodyguard and the patient (Latoya: "There was someone else in the room that night"), Murray proceeds to put the patient "asleep" while Michael sits with him. Michael is then taken away in disguise to the airport shortly after the patient dies. Previous to this Murray and Michael have met with the coroner and carefully explained the life threatening circumstances they have found themselves in. The coroner does a physical examination of MJ, carefully taking down his physical features, scars, tattoos, vitiligo and arthritis. Murray gives the coroner a list of the drugs he plans to use on the hospice patient. This is what the coroner uses to complete his report later when the patient is wheeled in to him and actually many of these drugs are indeed later found in the hospice patients system.
With the hospice patient everything can happen as it would in any emergency. EMT's arrive and believe it is MJ because they are told it is (while Murray is careful to make sure "Joseph" is placed on all the paperwork), even though one EMT says he didn't recognize MJ. The patient is taken to UCLA where he is briefly glimpsed by the "stalker fan" who says it is not MJ (and agreeing with Blount) but both are not listened to. Med staff at UCLA work on the body at Murray's encouragement. The patient is then taken to the coroner who does the autopsy but falsifies the report. The report would have to be falsified since an actual autopsy report on the actual patient would reveal the cause of the terminal illness he was suffering and MJ had no terminal illness. Ditto for a cadaver ("healthy 50 year old male").
Murray sits through the court hearing implacably with never a whimper of outrage or indignation, he simply accepts the findings like he expected as much, as he had scripted it, and refuses to defend himself, even as the evidence piles up against him. It HAD to be planned. No one could possibly be as inept as Murray was portrayed unless it was deliberate.
So, Murray can be guilty of attempted murder, did actually murder, copped the rap to save himself and Michael. A 4 year sentence reduced to 22 months. 22 months where he will be safe in jail while the battle continues to catch the "right hand".
And Michael is alive!
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2011, 11:31:29 PM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 11:37:17 PM
if TS and / or MJ / whoever is waiting for us to all be in agreeance about what happened to move on to the next level of the DH, its never going to happen. we are all too unique to be completely harmoneous.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2011, 11:59:35 PM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21545.0
Post by: BeTheChange on November 30, 2011, 12:17:25 AM
That's sort of freaky. What would you guys do if it was all my fault? /overreacting/
(http://www.punjabigraphics.com/images/2/psycho.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Seriously...don't think twice about it. I'm sure everything is going according to plan...no matter how many times we were wrong, are wrong, or will be wrong.
It's already written.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 30, 2011, 12:32:46 AM
Post by: Grace on November 30, 2011, 12:36:35 AM
some "pieces" of the puzzle from court today
1. the orange bottle shown, is a scent spray, just happen to be Hawaiian scent "aloha" : ) howdy!
2. Restitution date Jan. 23, same as "THRILLER" album release for Michael
3. Murray is "taken up on the roof" to stargaze??? WTH,, so does Tito, he used to always be "going up to the rooftop" and Paris her fondest memory of daddy,,"on the roof, looking at stars and lights of Vegas"
4. Finally a mug shot,, and the Sony ad flying in make.believe,,
a few observations I and others noted.
It is indeed this:
(http://image.rakuten.co.jp/clour/cabinet/airfreshner/img56231030.jpg)
an air refresher with an open window, a lot of five-armed stars on the artwork and being a brand of P&G.
Aloha from Hawaii:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/27/ElvisPresleyAlohafromHawaii.jpg/220px-ElvisPresleyAlohafromHawaii.jpg)
Post by: bec on November 30, 2011, 12:43:47 AM
Incidentally, 12/2/11 will be the 28th anniversary of the release of the Thriller video.
Post by: Suzy7 on November 30, 2011, 12:52:04 AM
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 30, 2011, 01:26:23 AM
I can only speak for myself when I say the investigative part of the hoax has gone way beyond figuring out the hows and whys of Michael's plans. In the past 2+ years, a night of "Michaeling" always seemed to lead me to other areas of learning.
I have discovered how corrupt the worlds governments are, how 9/11 was an inside job,, how the United States is a corporation rather than a country etc. etc...
I have also rediscovered my soul and learned how to truly love again despite several tragedies in my life. The message has been loud and clear and for me the hoax has been educational, uplifting and inspirational.
Finding clues and blogging has been wonderful escapism and has taught me to look beyond the surface to find truth. Believe it or not I truly believe I know what is coming with BAM and I am excited. There has been a measure of fear with all that I have learned but if I am right about BAM the I know in my heart that "there is nothing to nervous about." Thank you to all of you for making this all such a wonderful life changing experiance.
Tooty, looks like you and I took the same path on our "Michaeling" journey! I'm glad that I took the path of LOVE and "awakening", it was the only thing that I could relate to,and the only path that made sense to me at the time, as LOVE has always been a HUGE part of my Life. I also suffered deeply from tragedy after tragedy in my life. For me to be where I am today, is a true testament to the Power of "LOVE" ,of GOD our Creator, and to the power of our "consciousness' ".
IN the last 29 months I have had a better, and a more "TRUTHFUL", Education then I have had in the other 47 years of my life! I also Believe I "KNOW" what is to come with the "Bam", although my husband and I often joke and say that Michael has already "Bammed" us in a big way, when he led us to the "TRUTH". of who we are, and what our true purpose here is! Michael's Genius, Patience and compassion for "teaching", never ceases to amaze us. Michael helped me to conquer all of my "Fears", and helped me to feel comfortable in my own skin, knowing that I wasn't a "freak" for Believing in LOVE, and for the "strange occurrences" that have been happening to me. He helped me to understand that the "King of Pop" was just his "persona"(ego) and that beneath that persona, lived a man who desperately wanted his message to be heard, therefore, he had to kill his "ego" so that "Man" could LIVE. This is what we all have to do in order to truly live from our hearts, instead of through our "ego's".
Before all of this hoax stuff happened, I would have said it's "craziness" to believe what I now truly Believe, but because I am LIVING these "changes", I can't deny that "change" is already happening to me. Dave and I are calmly and happily looking forward to the "future", and until all is revealed, we do our best to live each day with LOVE, and helping others to become aware of what is to come, and teaching others the importance of LOVE, and what they can do to "Make that Change". It has been a true Blessing to be here on this journey with all of these beautiful, funny, talented, and yes, even the "tortured" souls, here on this forum. I LOVE every member here with all of my Heart,and I hope that everyone soon finds Peace and Harmony within their Lives.
It is nice to know Tooty, that you and Meri are also on this same journey, so a "Big thanks", you know that we LOVE you both!!
bearhug
As for court today, I am not surprised with the outcome. The end result is a world wide wake up call for humanity, Corruption will be exposed in many different areas, most of which have already been mentioned, so I won't elaborate. All I know is that everything is happening the way Michael has planned it, and in the end, "The Truth Will Prevail", and the world will have to re- educate themselves on virtually everything they thought they "Knew" as truth, including themselves!
Thank you TS for your guidance...You Know that I LOVE YOU! bearhug
Blessings LOVE and LIGHT to ALL...You guys amaze me! Keep the Faith my beautiful Family!
LIVE LOVE... BE LOVE...for we are ONE!!!!!
bearhug
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 30, 2011, 01:45:00 AM
Nothing has been put together as one coherent theory for everyone to understand; yet we have a new re-direct?
Change of plans, but why?
Post by: curls on November 30, 2011, 01:55:32 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 30, 2011, 01:59:15 AM
45 seconds now
Post by: Suzy7 on November 30, 2011, 02:08:10 AM
GINA I am not quite sure but I have some ideas; most likely wrong but who knows.
If it's because not everyone is on the same page, someone said before they never will be anyway. So I think he would post regardless. I also think there is enough info in this thread that point to one theory.
But it's most likely difficult for TS to go through each theory/comment and debunk them with 3 or more strong points each, which is why I think he'd post anyway. Debunking every theory, especially in this thread with so much info, takes alot of time.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 30, 2011, 02:14:32 AM
But where to start from?
Yesterday I saw Jermaine pointing to that placard saying "AEG has to be investigated" or something like that.
That man Randy Phillips - I feel like I can't trust him.
Post by: MJonmind on November 30, 2011, 02:28:55 AM
Adi
Quote
Quote from: Ijustcantstoplovingu on Today at 11:10:45 AMThat's so cool and amazing!
next court date 23 January .... Thriller released on 23 January 1984,
Just a small aside:
Yep - on 23rd January 1984 the song "Thriller" was released as the 7th single from the Thriller album...interesting because the number 23 is on the cover of the "Michael" album.
Maybe another "coincidence" lol
Someone posted this link, some goes overboard in my opinion but IDK really. This caught my eye:
Quote
The late Capt.Gunther Russbacher, a highly substantiated CIA/Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) operative known for his role as a whistleblower in the October Surprise intrigue that facilitatedRonald ReaganandGeorge Bushascending to office, had told his wife Rayelan thatMJ’sfather had done something awful toMichaelin his childhood and that Michael [/size]was later recruited as an adult to assist in a covert sting operation to nab a ring of international pedophiles.http://mindcontrolblackassassins.wordpress.com/ (http://mindcontrolblackassassins.wordpress.com/) Could this be connected to the 2 other allegations, trial, and this death hoax sting?
Bec, all your fault? :lol: Are you volunteering to be the scapegoat?
Heartsong, I like your theory and agree with everything except for the part of AEG hiring Murray initially for murder. I think this was ALL planned from day 1 by MJ, not a hasty fixing of a murder plot.
Australian MJ BeLIEver- at least I think we all agree we love Michael, and most of us love TS and Front too (except for the suspicious ones)!
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 30, 2011, 02:31:36 AM
Australian MJ BeLIEver- at least I think we all agree we love Michael, and most of us love TS and Front too (except for the suspicious ones)!
true, i had it in my mind when i was writing the post to also include that the one thing we do agree on is that MJ is alive and that we love him :) but accidentally overlooked it.
thanks for the add.
x
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 30, 2011, 03:43:45 AM
Bec, all your fault? :lol: Are you volunteering to be the scapegoat?
She can be our sacrifice...just kidding.
Ok so does anyone have any ideas for what we should do or where to look for info so we can attach 7b and 7c to the puzzle?
Post by: applehead250609 on November 30, 2011, 03:53:11 AM
I can only speak for myself when I say the investigative part of the hoax has gone way beyond figuring out the hows and whys of Michael's plans. In the past 2+ years, a night of "Michaeling" always seemed to lead me to other areas of learning.
I have discovered how corrupt the worlds governments are, how 9/11 was an inside job,, how the United States is a corporation rather than a country etc. etc...
I have also rediscovered my soul and learned how to truly love again despite several tragedies in my life. The message has been loud and clear and for me the hoax has been educational, uplifting and inspirational.
Finding clues and blogging has been wonderful escapism and has taught me to look beyond the surface to find truth. Believe it or not I truly believe I know what is coming with BAM and I am excited. There has been a measure of fear with all that I have learned but if I am right about BAM the I know in my heart that "there is nothing to nervous about." Thank you to all of you for making this all such a wonderful life changing experiance.
Tooty, looks like you and I took the same path on our "Michaeling" journey! I'm glad that I took the path of LOVE and "awakening", it was the only thing that I could relate to,and the only path that made sense to me at the time, as LOVE has always been a HUGE part of my Life. I also suffered deeply from tragedy after tragedy in my life. For me to be where I am today, is a true testament to the Power of "LOVE" ,of GOD our Creator, and to the power of our "consciousness' ".
IN the last 29 months I have had a better, and a more "TRUTHFUL", Education then I have had in the other 47 years of my life! I also Believe I "KNOW" what is to come with the "Bam", although my husband and I often joke and say that Michael has already "Bammed" us in a big way, when he led us to the "TRUTH". of who we are, and what our true purpose here is! Michael's Genius, Patience and compassion for "teaching", never ceases to amaze us. Michael helped me to conquer all of my "Fears", and helped me to feel comfortable in my own skin, knowing that I wasn't a "freak" for Believing in LOVE, and for the "strange occurrences" that have been happening to me. He helped me to understand that the "King of Pop" was just his "persona"(ego) and that beneath that persona, lived a man who desperately wanted his message to be heard, therefore, he had to kill his "ego" so that "Man" could LIVE. This is what we all have to do in order to truly live from our hearts, instead of through our "ego's".
Before all of this hoax stuff happened, I would have said it's "craziness" to believe what I now truly Believe, but because I am LIVING these "changes", I can't deny that "change" is already happening to me. Dave and I are calmly and happily looking forward to the "future", and until all is revealed, we do our best to live each day with LOVE, and helping others to become aware of what is to come, and teaching others the importance of LOVE, and what they can do to "Make that Change". It has been a true Blessing to be here on this journey with all of these beautiful, funny, talented, and yes, even the "tortured" souls, here on this forum. I LOVE every member here with all of my Heart,and I hope that everyone soon finds Peace and Harmony within their Lives.
It is nice to know Tooty, that you and Meri are also on this same journey, so a "Big thanks", you know that we LOVE you both!!
bearhug
As for court today, I am not surprised with the outcome. The end result is a world wide wake up call for humanity, Corruption will be exposed in many different areas, most of which have already been mentioned, so I won't elaborate. All I know is that everything is happening the way Michael has planned it, and in the end, "The Truth Will Prevail", and the world will have to re- educate themselves on virtually everything they thought they "Knew" as truth, including themselves!
Thank you TS for your guidance...You Know that I LOVE YOU! bearhug
Blessings LOVE and LIGHT to ALL...You guys amaze me! Keep the Faith my beautiful Family!
LIVE LOVE... BE LOVE...for we are ONE!!!!!
bearhug
Hy mjj4ever777 :) !!!! Thank you for all your guidance and passion ,but I have to contradict about a thing you wrote,nobody is really wakeing up,because nobody cares,I'm sorry.The corruption was an always be on planet earth,Michael is not god or jesus,he is a gifted artist,and nothing more.It's nice to dream and make up stories about human super powers,but this are just in fairy tales,I'm sorry.Life is hard,just like Misha told in the begining of THIS IS IT movie,and also Michael told us in the end of the same movie that is up to us,IT'S START WITH US.The government and the RICH PEOPLE doesen't care about you,me,and the people from Wall Street who are protesting :? .Life goes on,with or whithout Michael,with or whithout you and me,that's a fact,and is REALITY.
Post by: VeryLittleSusie on November 30, 2011, 03:54:57 AM
The patient is taken to UCLA where he is briefly glimpsed by the "stalker fan" who says it is not MJ (and agreeing with Blount) but both are not listened to. Med staff at UCLA work on the body at Murray's encouragement. The patient is then taken to the coroner who does the autopsy but falsifies the report. The report would have to be falsified since an actual autopsy report on the actual patient would reveal the cause of the terminal illness he was suffering and MJ had no terminal illness. Ditto for a cadaver ("healthy 50 year old male").
Is the patient alive or not as a result of this operation? If not - then who murdered him with propofol?
Is it possible to "buy a hospice patient in the supermarket" whenever you want?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 30, 2011, 08:01:31 AM
The patient is taken to UCLA where he is briefly glimpsed by the "stalker fan" who says it is not MJ (and agreeing with Blount) but both are not listened to. Med staff at UCLA work on the body at Murray's encouragement. The patient is then taken to the coroner who does the autopsy but falsifies the report. The report would have to be falsified since an actual autopsy report on the actual patient would reveal the cause of the terminal illness he was suffering and MJ had no terminal illness. Ditto for a cadaver ("healthy 50 year old male").
Is the patient alive or not as a result of this operation? If not - then who murdered him with propofol?
Is it possible to "buy a hospice patient in the supermarket" whenever you want?
Propofol was "discovered" later at the "autopsy".
That's why Murray never mentioned propofol to paramedics and UCLA doctors, because the corpse used for the hoax didn't have any propofol inside, because it died of something else.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 30, 2011, 10:29:28 AM
There's absolutely no confusion over Mike being alive (at least for me)....and I have no problem continuing on with the 'digging' if that's what we're to do. But it sure would help to know what changed...if it was something within our control or something completely outside it.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 30, 2011, 10:56:13 AM
I don't believe that, but it is ironic.
Now, really, TS, keep up our faith is you and finish what you started. Stay true to your word and at least end level 7, which we thought was the end.
This is very mentally taxing, and then wears one out emotionally and physically. We LOVE this, but when we count on/believe...YOU, we give you our faith...just saying.
Post by: Sarahli on November 30, 2011, 12:03:16 PM
Perhaps TS needs a little support and encouragement too sometimes. ;) We are ALL in this together.
Post by: paula-c on November 30, 2011, 01:50:25 PM
(http://sp1.fotolog.com/photo/33/18/3/heald_the_world/1266423395914_f.jpg)
Post by: Heartsong on November 30, 2011, 03:01:39 PM
Yes, I agree, I considered this possibility (we all have at length), yet I cannot ignore statements from Kenny regarding Michael's apparent sudden decline in health, Michael going home early from rehearsals, Michael's own words of being "hot on one side and cold on the other", fan reports of Michael not appearing well during the last couple weeks of rehearsals and Jermaine's claims that Michael did not know his left from his right. All signs for me that Murray was doing something shady which Michael was unaware of.
The patient is taken to UCLA where he is briefly glimpsed by the "stalker fan" who says it is not MJ (and agreeing with Blount) but both are not listened to. Med staff at UCLA work on the body at Murray's encouragement. The patient is then taken to the coroner who does the autopsy but falsifies the report. The report would have to be falsified since an actual autopsy report on the actual patient would reveal the cause of the terminal illness he was suffering and MJ had no terminal illness. Ditto for a cadaver ("healthy 50 year old male").
Is the patient alive or not as a result of this operation? If not - then who murdered him with propofol?
Is it possible to "buy a hospice patient in the supermarket" whenever you want?
Propofol was "discovered" later at the "autopsy".
That's why Murray never mentioned propofol to paramedics and UCLA doctors, because the corpse used for the hoax didn't have any propofol inside, because it died of something else.
During this whole 2 years I have endeavoured to maintain two principles in my mind when going over evidence: the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) and the parsimony principle (the simplest explanation is often the best explanation). I feel if we allow too much convolution we cannot see the forest for the trees, let alone the effect it has on our sanity! Even then it is still difficult...
I think the patient was alive when brought to Carolwood ("there was someone else in the room", reported deviance from routine) then Murray administered all the drugs found in the AR including the propofol which killed him. That way all the urine found at the scene, plus the toxicology samples would not have to be falsified by the coroner, neither would any of the evidence found at the scene. All the coroner would have to falsify would be the physical features while overlooking the patients true illness (& name).
Plus, Murray would not have to address the issues of the stages a dead body goes thru in death (rigor, lividity). Had the person already been dead for a long time it would have been apparent to medical officers (as it was they already suspected time of death was earlier than Murray said. I think it was too, as Murray would have had to make sure the patient had truly passed before making calls. Wouldn't want him being revived!), in which case they would have had to have been brought into the hoax, an undesirable option for many reasons. Plus a live person would have been much easier to get into the house at 1am in the morning (less people involved). I don't think a hospice patient was "bought". Don't forget Michael's affinity to sick people and the love they have for him because of it...
I think as much as possible had to be "authentic" in the scenario. If it is was possible to introduce the propofol to the system of the patient to ensure it showed up in the report, that is one less thing that needed to be falsified- one less person who needed to know. And a peaceful way for a terminally ill patient to end their suffering.
Love to you all.
Post by: alsmom380 on November 30, 2011, 03:35:32 PM
Post by: Sarahli on November 30, 2011, 04:37:09 PM
Hi, Gals and Guys. I've not read a definitive answer for who was in the ambulance. I may have a pic of "Michael" (or whoever) in the ambo, not the one that Chris supposedly took. Problem is, I can't figure out how to post it by inserting it. I'd like to get others' insite on it. Help? :) Also, is there any proof of EVERYONE in the ambo? I mean besides Michael, dummy or corpse. Thanks!
It depends on where is this picture? If you have it saved in your computer you can add it as an attachment when you post. If it's on the internet just post the link. Hope it helps. :)
Post by: alsmom380 on November 30, 2011, 05:05:21 PM
Post by: Sarahli on November 30, 2011, 05:12:44 PM
Thanks, @Sarahli! It was saved to my computer that I screenshot from the Hollywood.TV video so I posted it on photobuket. Fingers crossed:) If I see what I think I see, this is the reason that something or someone had to be on the gurney. You know, just in case photos or videos were taken. I'm sorry, can't remember who but several pages back someone posted the VH1 re-enactment of 6-25. It does indeed look like "MJ" in that video. As well as this screenshot. Electrode on the chest and all. I tried attaching but it was too large http://tinyurl.com/74g3swm I may just be crazy /pull hair/
You're welcome. Trying to look as hard as I can to see something now...
(http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n618/alsmom380/mjambo14.png)
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 30, 2011, 05:15:42 PM
Post by: bec on November 30, 2011, 05:16:42 PM
Post by: alsmom380 on November 30, 2011, 05:36:59 PM
Oh come on.I see what I see. Like I said, maybe I'm going crazy. But one thing is true TO ME; other than "something" on the gurney the only person I actually see inside is who I believe is Senneff. I don't even see anyone doing chest compressions. And I think the RA is too small for 4 grown men and a gurney. Especially when a rescue is supposedly going on. And CM is like 2 men.
Post by: ~Souza~ on November 30, 2011, 05:41:35 PM
And I still don't see anything in that picture.
Post by: fordtocarr on November 30, 2011, 05:46:46 PM
"I think"..."to me".."this possibility"...could be, maybe...on and on.
Which mean GUESS!
I'm tired of guessing. I know you all are too. Yes, we've come a long way. Yes, I'll believe even if shown PROOF I'm wrong.
BUT....I have no clue what we are suppose to be GUESSING at now.
I feel like we are all stumbling in the dark. Feeble posting because we genuinely WANT to keep walking toward a resolution.
Are we even SUPPOSE to be finding a resolution. Are we ever going to be content if we do not?
I feel like I'm a huge balloon drifting round and round the earth, waiting to settle to the ground, wanting to settle to the ground,
but don't know how to do it without breaking myself.
:(
I'm really just wanting to know, what are we suppose to be doing/figuring out now that TS's last theory didn't work out.
Post by: alsmom380 on November 30, 2011, 06:06:30 PM
I don't mean this to be negative, and if it is, delete it, but as I catch up from a few hours, I'm seeing words, as I always write."I think" we're all guessing. If I had all the answers I wouldn't be here. And I've said it before, they only way we'll ever know the whole truth is through MJ himself. Until then, theories are all we have. No matter how many people supposedly know the answers. So, I'll continue to guess while I do my part in making the world a better place. With Love.
"I think"..."to me".."this possibility"...could be, maybe...on and on.
Which mean GUESS!
I'm tired of guessing. I know you all are too. Yes, we've come a long way. Yes, I'll believe even if shown PROOF I'm wrong.
BUT....I have no clue what we are suppose to be GUESSING at now.
I feel like we are all stumbling in the dark. Feeble posting because we genuinely WANT to keep walking toward a resolution.
Are we even SUPPOSE to be finding a resolution. Are we ever going to be content if we do not?
I feel like I'm a huge balloon drifting round and round the earth, waiting to settle to the ground, wanting to settle to the ground,
but don't know how to do it without breaking myself.
:(
I'm really just wanting to know, what are we suppose to be doing/figuring out now that TS's last theory didn't work out.
Post by: MissG on November 30, 2011, 06:30:01 PM
I am also of the opinion that TS, as another member, has his own theories which are well written and schematic, making exiting the follow up but still TS has not the answers and I can see that many people are putting their hopes on TS and waiting for his guidance or acceptance on diverse theories.
Don´t get me wrong, I enjoy this threads a lot since million theories come across and the possibilities and scenarios that can be created on one same event are immense and at times one theory can fit in to what another person already thought but never told about.
Thanks Australian B. for the link :) It´s easier that way!
Post by: alsmom380 on November 30, 2011, 06:39:30 PM
Post by: MissG on November 30, 2011, 06:48:38 PM
Post by: curls on December 01, 2011, 02:18:11 AM
I don't mean this to be negative, and if it is, delete it, but as I catch up from a few hours, I'm seeing words, as I always write.
"I think"..."to me".."this possibility"...could be, maybe...on and on.
Which mean GUESS!
I'm tired of guessing. I know you all are too. Yes, we've come a long way. Yes, I'll believe even if shown PROOF I'm wrong.
BUT....I have no clue what we are suppose to be GUESSING at now.
I feel like we are all stumbling in the dark. Feeble posting because we genuinely WANT to keep walking toward a resolution.
Are we even SUPPOSE to be finding a resolution. Are we ever going to be content if we do not?
I feel like I'm a huge balloon drifting round and round the earth, waiting to settle to the ground, wanting to settle to the ground,
but don't know how to do it without breaking myself.
:(
I'm really just wanting to know, what are we suppose to be doing/figuring out now that TS's last theory didn't work out.
I sense a weariness about you (and others) that I too have this week. I've hardly posted anything because there's nothing to say. I'm tired of reading desperate attempts to find 'clues' - no offense meant to those that do but I don't want or need clues anymore. I don't think we'll ever work out, as a group, team or individually, the details of the hoax - TS has said as much - and they're not even that important to me any more. I'm tired of reading BAM dates that get people's hopes up and never come to anything. I'm pretty sure I know where it's all heading. I know MJ is alive and I'm pretty certain I know what makes him tick. I hope things are going the way he wants. I hope the world wakes up, with or without MJ.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 01, 2011, 02:48:45 AM
"Heartsong, I like your theory and agree with everything except for the part of AEG hiring Murray initially for murder. I think this was ALL planned from day 1 by MJ, not a hasty fixing of a murder plot."
Yes, I agree, I considered this possibility (we all have at length), yet I cannot ignore statements from Kenny regarding Michael's apparent sudden decline in health, Michael going home early from rehearsals, Michael's own words of being "hot on one side and cold on the other", fan reports of Michael not appearing well during the last couple weeks of rehearsals and Jermaine's claims that Michael did not know his left from his right. All signs for me that Murray was doing something shady which Michael was unaware of.The patient is taken to UCLA where he is briefly glimpsed by the "stalker fan" who says it is not MJ (and agreeing with Blount) but both are not listened to. Med staff at UCLA work on the body at Murray's encouragement. The patient is then taken to the coroner who does the autopsy but falsifies the report. The report would have to be falsified since an actual autopsy report on the actual patient would reveal the cause of the terminal illness he was suffering and MJ had no terminal illness. Ditto for a cadaver ("healthy 50 year old male").
Is the patient alive or not as a result of this operation? If not - then who murdered him with propofol?
Is it possible to "buy a hospice patient in the supermarket" whenever you want?
Propofol was "discovered" later at the "autopsy".
That's why Murray never mentioned propofol to paramedics and UCLA doctors, because the corpse used for the hoax didn't have any propofol inside, because it died of something else.
During this whole 2 years I have endeavoured to maintain two principles in my mind when going over evidence: the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) and the parsimony principle (the simplest explanation is often the best explanation). I feel if we allow too much convolution we cannot see the forest for the trees, let alone the effect it has on our sanity! Even then it is still difficult...
I think the patient was alive when brought to Carolwood ("there was someone else in the room", reported deviance from routine) then Murray administered all the drugs found in the AR including the propofol which killed him. That way all the urine found at the scene, plus the toxicology samples would not have to be falsified by the coroner, neither would any of the evidence found at the scene. All the coroner would have to falsify would be the physical features while overlooking the patients true illness (& name).
Plus, Murray would not have to address the issues of the stages a dead body goes thru in death (rigor, lividity). Had the person already been dead for a long time it would have been apparent to medical officers (as it was they already suspected time of death was earlier than Murray said. I think it was too, as Murray would have had to make sure the patient had truly passed before making calls. Wouldn't want him being revived!), in which case they would have had to have been brought into the hoax, an undesirable option for many reasons. Plus a live person would have been much easier to get into the house at 1am in the morning (less people involved). I don't think a hospice patient was "bought". Don't forget Michael's affinity to sick people and the love they have for him because of it...
I think as much as possible had to be "authentic" in the scenario. If it is was possible to introduce the propofol to the system of the patient to ensure it showed up in the report, that is one less thing that needed to be falsified- one less person who needed to know. And a peaceful way for a terminally ill patient to end their suffering.
Love to you all.
I understand your principles but if the above scenario is true - then there was no reason for Murray not to mention to the paramedics giving him propofol.
To those who believe MJ is alive but not coming back- I truly believe you should have much hope, because IF he's alive - he will be back. That is one thing I've never doubted or feared.
Post by: _Anna_ on December 01, 2011, 03:29:06 AM
Relating to 7c, I want to bring up the following TMZ article:
DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL
Jury Goes Down the Toilet
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0)}
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
This was posted on TMZ after the jury made its decision, and before the verdict was announced. Since La Toya has confirmed that Harvey Levin knows what is going on (and we have seen that for a long time, anyway): they probably knew at the time that the verdict was guilty.
TMZ took the article down, shortly after it was posted on the hoax forum (which means that they were probably watching to see when we posted it here, and then they deleted it on TMZ). They did not go to all the trouble to create the picture, and post the article, for nothing (only to delete it shortly after). Therefore, what is the message that we are supposed to get from this article, in relation to the jury and therefore the court?
I went and looked again.
TMZ didn't post the toilet paper article after the jury made its decision. It was in the middle of the deliberation, not after.
I took a print-screen when they updated, and few moments later (few minutes, I was on TMZ) they put the article up. So it was before the verdict was reached with almost an hour.
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4365/tmzupdatenov72011toilet.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/tmzupdatenov72011toilet.jpg/)
An hour later they updated that the verdict was reached
(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6713/82891320.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/82891320.jpg/)
Post by: 2good2btrue on December 01, 2011, 06:53:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPCiPXcoxdw
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPCiPXcoxdw[/youtube]
Post by: BeTheChange on December 01, 2011, 08:00:07 AM
Relating to 7c, I want to bring up the following TMZ article:
DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL
Jury Goes Down the Toilet
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0)}
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
This was posted on TMZ after the jury made its decision, and before the verdict was announced. Since La Toya has confirmed that Harvey Levin knows what is going on (and we have seen that for a long time, anyway): they probably knew at the time that the verdict was guilty.
TMZ took the article down, shortly after it was posted on the hoax forum (which means that they were probably watching to see when we posted it here, and then they deleted it on TMZ). They did not go to all the trouble to create the picture, and post the article, for nothing (only to delete it shortly after). Therefore, what is the message that we are supposed to get from this article, in relation to the jury and therefore the court?
I went and looked again.
TMZ didn't post the toilet paper article after the jury made its decision. It was in the middle of the deliberation, not after.
I took a print-screen when they updated, and few moments later (few minutes, I was on TMZ) they put the article up. So it was before the verdict was reached with almost an hour.
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4365/tmzupdatenov72011toilet.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/tmzupdatenov72011toilet.jpg/)
An hour later they updated that the verdict was reached
(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6713/82891320.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/82891320.jpg/)
@Anna...I'm not sure if you are questioning what TS wrote but what you're saying is what he wrote in the part I bolded. The point is that TMZ KNEW the verdict before it was officially announced (in court).
Once again, TMZ had the 'inside scoop' before anyone else did. I think there's only a couple possible reasons as to how they would've known beforehand. One reason could be if a deputy somehow spilled the beans. But, I'm not sure if a deputy is even in the room with the jurors...or if one is just posted outside the deliberation room. I guess that's a possibility.
But IMO, the more likely reason is because someone on that jury was 'planted'....he/she was the source of the info. Assuming the whole jury wasn't 'in on it'....I think a 'planted' jury member is highly likely cause MJ would want someone on the 'inside' listening in and reporting back. This would've been very easy to do IF both the DA and defense attorneys were 'in on it'...and I believe they were.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: paula-c on December 01, 2011, 10:20:28 AM
Post by: MsTrinity333 on December 01, 2011, 12:17:43 PM
TS:
In the second level, there have been a few strong points in support of FBI involvement; and nobody has debunked any of these strong points {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461} (http://{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=313461&#p313461}).
The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.
Re: TIAI May 1
Postby MsTrinity333 » Mon May 02, 2011 9:11 am
After going back through my posts on the Third Level on pages 3, 4, 7, 9, & 11 I have read nothing that has changed my mind concerning FBI involvement and a real body... Then again perhaps the Three Way Theory means a combination of all three possibilities. suspicious//
Others have posted lots of great investigative information about the whole corpse thing.
I applaud all their hard work. beerchug I have stated my opinions; but I do not have the time or the energy to do all the background research to flesh them out as I am dealing with my own family issues...
We all know there have been death threats, dirty prosecutions, & business dealings against MJ. I find it hard to beLIEve only a dummy would be used in a sting. This is not ALL a movie. Something big is going on or else doctors who had contact with MJ over the yrs would not be going down. mj_dance/
No one allowed upstairs?, nobody RECOGNIZED MJ? elderly man? Asian? wrong bedroom, urine sample in bottle found in the bedroom, oxygen tanks, location & timing of 911 call...that day and the other dd, Jermaine's slip about MJ at the airport, missing security tapes, money & hard drive... official Autopsy report was released or finalized 09.09.09, Trauma Gershwin blood sample & second toe tag with same name. (Trauma Gershwin = hospital code for hi-profile cases) Soule Shaun, or Shaun Soule that MJ was supposedly admitted under meaning God is Gracious, fire alarm & lock-down of the facility, syringe with mysterious fingerprint? Sting.
Some of us had a whole conversation on this subject: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=75 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=75)
Re: TIAI April 11
Postby MsTrinity333 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:55 pm
jacilovesmichael wrote:
I just have to say that I really don't find the concept of a real body being used quite as morbid as some, and I'm pretty sensitive. I think we have to remember that if a real body was used, we have no idea who the individual was or how/why they were chosen. People donate their bodies to science all the time. In a way, this would be the same type of thing. Plus, if I knew I was going to die and Michael Jackson asked me if I'd be willing to donate my body in order for him to pull off the greatest media hoax of all time that would not only serve for entertainment purposes but also wake up the entire world to the abundant corruption going on......... why WOULDN'T I want to do that? I don't really see anything morbid there. In fact it sounds like a pretty cool opportunity, unless I'm romanticizing...I do that alot :)
~Souza~ wrote:
I agree, I don't see it as morbid either, I would see it as an honor if that was the last thing I could contribute to the world.
I am still trying to figure some things out, I will try to get back with a theory later. I think the real corpse is very possible, but I still have to figure out why they would need to use it.
Trinity:
Ditto... not that morbid.
As some of us have noted; people donate bodies for various things; so why not? As to why a REAL body...?
Did someone need to SEE "evidence"? Was this part of the sting? The realism? The show? He's dead...I saw the body. Or it must be true...I saw them take a body out of the house. etc.
Re: TIAI April 11
Post by PureLove » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:59 pm
Probably a real body had to be used to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. They didn't want the EMTs or coroners or hospital know about the hoax.
Re: TIAI April 11
Postby MsTrinity333 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:38 am
Clearly as we get into the more serious issues of the hoax there's going to be some desertion in the ranks; can't be helped. This isn't all fun & games here.
Re: TIAI April 11
Postby MsTrinity333 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:48 pm
* Body logistics not that difficult for FBI. Let's not assume Michael had anything to do with this...it may not have been his choice, but was done because it had to be. :oops: This may have something to do with a sting op. In one of my last conversations with Kitty she told me doctors were going down in CA, AZ & Florida. These are docs MJ had contact with 10-20 yrs ago. Coincidence?
Re: TIAI April 11
Postby MsTrinity333 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:45 am
fordtocarr wrote:
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up. I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it. Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him. (I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
PureLove wrote:
Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.
navibl wrote:
Thank you PureLove….I really HATE the word hoax because people always get a picture of a joke or deception. This is a life saving mission for Michael and the world or the people that will listen. I know that what Michael is going to bring to us when we hear him again will be so horrific that no one in their right mind will care about it being appropriate to use a dead body, how and who at that point. We will be so thankfull to God and Michael and that he cared enough all these years to allow God to give him this plan.We will only care about what we can do to save our lives and the lives of those we love. I have already seen VERY UGLY things going on in this country, and what the Gov is hiding from us that is life threatening and the means they will go to in covering up what they don’t want known. That is why we are here now, to learn what and how he did this, so that we will be beyond that when he speaks to us again. My biggest concern right now, it that from the view points that I read here, there will be so many that will NOT BELIEVE it is Michael when he returns, they will take up close video shots and try to dissect it with various software and spend so much time trying to disprove it is Michael that they will NEVER hear his message. This will be very sad.
So my personal opinion is that while I don’t know who or what was in the ambulance just yet, I know what was NOT. And unless Brian Oxman had total leave of his sense on 6/25 and was completely not thinking or speaking clearly and just totally fumbling all over the place, which I doubt, I know that Michael was NOT IN the ambulance on that day. Because Brian said and I quote, “ I got a call uhh just a little bit BEFORE NOON that Michael had been taken FROM the hospital by Randy’s assistant who gave me that call” I have included the link below with the vid. If you look at him while he is talking , there are no signs of grief and is almost as if he is working very hard to keep from smiling, however the rest of the statement goes on as if all else is as most believe of Michael being gone. Here again we have a play on words, done on purpose to show how deeply deception can be interwoven with just a tad of the truth to twist things totally around and make us believe what they want us to. Just like Jermaine Airport and Hospital. You don’t have that many people with that many slip ups on words.
[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3Izi-tS5Kk[/youtube]
For the non believing it is a perfect scapegoat to say it was a slip and he got the time and wording confused. As for the use of a dead body being wrong of Michael and totally out of the scope. That is child’s play compared to what goes on in this world. I am certain if we believe Michael has a skilled team working with him, they are to ones who devised the details of a body, fake, alive, or ill. It is not for us to judge if it is appropriate or not. Why Michael would have been at the hospital earlier that morning would be sheer speculation on anyone’s part and unnecessary. He had his reasons for whatever he did, some of which we may never know.
If we are to investigate this in reality, we have to climb out of our little politically correct powder puff boxed in way of thinking and look at the reality of what takes place in this world daily. PURE UGLY is what is in front of us, deception from satan. This is what Michael is trying to get us to see.
Trinity:
Thanks Victoria... It seems those of us leaning toward the dead body theory take this FBI involvement very seriously beyond just Hoax. This is life & death. The FBI IS involved.
But I'm wondering if maybe the EMT's were NOT in on it during Live Action Day...
Or just one was; one undercover? This = "Creditable Deniability" & no Perjury. They simply did their jobs even though the body looked like it had been dead for over an hour, and they didn't recognize who they were working on. They had suspicions, they noted weird things. :? Does it matter? Do your job; don't question the doctor, circumstances or identity of the person. That's not your business. Perhaps it took so long because someone got to them (FBI) to sign documents forbidding them to disclose what went down that day.
Re: TIAI April 11
Postby navibl » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:33 am
I believe Michael’s involvement with the FBI, are with certain one who were of Divine connection, meaning God brought them together. Nothing in this life happens randomly. Everything has already happened, we are just living it out now, hence Michael’s always saying the music was already written, God was just giving it to him now. Because FBI is the Federal Gov and corruption lies at the heart of it, just like CIA, KBG,NASA,NOAA and any other Gov acronym. There has to be certain ones that have Michael’s best interest and heart, and know of the corruption with their own agency. Like I have mentioned before, I believe some could be retired officers with knowledge of how to work the system and know who is at the stem of the deceit in the agency. Like retired NASA officers that have been trying to warn us of thing for several years not, and people laugh them off. Not so for too much longer. Remember there are so many layers to this and the plan has been in the works for years. There are thing this and other world Govs have been hiding from the public while busying themselves to prepare to save their own hides. There are people in Hollywood in the know, they didn’t just make some of these movies to entertain us, they were to make us think. Only problem is Man will not be able to save himself, we know what that is going to take.
TS:
...so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
« Reply #998 on: November 25, 2011, 04:27:46 PM »
BeTheChange
So...IF there was a sting (7c) and this would affect who or what was in the ambulance (7b), which we know was at Carolwood on June 25th (7a)....then WHO was the target of the sting? Again, I say IF because, at this point, I can't prove whether or not there was a sting...I'm just working on a 'theory'....but IF 7c affects 7b, then the target of the sting could have been in the house. Either that (i.e. the target is someone who was in the house) OR the target is someone who has a 'connection' to someone in the house (i.e. a thwarted murder attempt).We have been going on the assumption that the people who saw the 'body' in house were all in on it....but perhaps we've been wrong in assuming that.
THIS COULD BE A REAL POSSIBILITY...
« Reply #1006 on: November 25, 2011, 07:43:39 PM »
GINAFELICIA
No matter how I try to think of the events on 25th , I keep coming back to the corpse theory because:
1. keeps the whole LAFD out of it - with the mentioning that paramedic Blunt said he recognized MJ on the spot - so maybe he was taken later into the hoax to create confusion in the scenario - because one paramedic said he didn't recognize MJ at all, the other said he recognized MJ on the spot- well that's confusion (I remember at first the media reported that paramedics didn't recognize Mj at all, the patient looked like an old frail Asian man, ill, so I was surprised at the trial when Blunt said he recognized MJ right away, so I was thinking maybe he was taken in the hoax later, I mean after June 25th, to make it less obvious to the public that it could be something wrong about MJ's death because the paramedics didn't recognize him)
2. would explain the overheated room;
3. would eliminate the risk of someone accidentally getting a glimpse into the ambulance and seeing nobody there;
4. would explain why the paramedics said the patient was dead when they arrived, and also the doctors at UCLA saying the same thing - dead on arrival;
5. not 100% sure but it could have fooled UCLA emergency doctors, leaving them out of the hoax, but on the other hand UCLA has to be in the hoax one way or another because they had to be the ones who provided the corpse. So I think UCLA is involved, but not through the emergency doctors. Arnold Klein is linked to UCLA - that's what I know, and I think MJ was in good relations at UCLA with people more in charge than some emergency doctors.
Remember it was said he used to watch surgeries there...
EXACTLY
« Reply #1065 on: November 26, 2011, 02:23:28 AM »
~Souza~
I am NOT against the corpse theory, and I am fully aware of the fact that they COULD have used one, but I have an unanswered question: WHY a corpse instead of a dummy?
THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION; IT'S GOT TO BE STING RELATED.
« Reply #1118 on: November 26, 2011, 11:09:45 PM »
Im_convincedmjalive
I have been here the whole time reading along. I took myself/theory out of this thread for a few reasons. I wanted to see how many people would defend the corpse theory and what they would use as evidence to back it up. For me, I am still convinced a corpse was used and I have provided alot of evidence (not opinion only) to back up my theory. I have repeated my theory in many threads and for the most part I didn't think many were backing me in my theories. I felt like I was just being a parrot so this time around I took myself and my theory out of the equation. I surely can't be the only one who is competent to write a coherent theory for the corpse being used.
MANY OF US HAVE OR ARE STILL LEANING THIS WAY; ESP SINCE THAT VIDEO SHOWING SOMETHING DEF WENT INTO UCLA & IT TOOK SO LONG FOR THEM TO BRING THE BODY DOWN FROM CARLWOOD; WAITING FOR THE STAFF TO LEAVE FIRST, HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS. THIS HAS GOT TO BE STING RELATED.
Jermaine said: “He was very, very healthy but Michael was not with us, WAY BEFORE he arrived to the airport. ... I mean way before he arrived to the hospital. ... they were always after him, and he felt that his life was going to be taken.” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OOwLcE_6Q}.
SORRY THIS WAS SO LONG... bearhug
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on December 01, 2011, 01:45:06 PM
The issue in this thread and why I believe it stalled is because before you posted the comments it appears not many want to accept that a corpse was used or the court has a sting side to it. I believe many are having a hard time with the idea and therefore totally dismissing it.
Sooner or later a general consensus must be made to move forward. I don't believe that people who have wrote theories and strong points towards a corpse or sting were just guessing. I believe that after they took everything into consideration the corpse and sting op was the only logical conclusion and therefore when writing about it they believed in it not just guessing.
Thanks for adding those comments.
Post by: Heartsong on December 01, 2011, 02:08:31 PM
"I understand your principles but if the above scenario is true - then there was no reason for Murray not to mention to the paramedics giving him propofol."
True, but Murray HAD to go to jail (for his own safety). He would have known propofol would be found at autopsy, an autopsy he was even reported request. His stuff ups were deliberate cause no one could stuff up that much by accident imo.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 01, 2011, 03:12:16 PM
Gina:yes but if we agree this is a hoax there had to be no autopsy. Is it possible that a corpse of somebody else than MJ, even stuffed with propofol, would have fooled the coroner?
"I understand your principles but if the above scenario is true - then there was no reason for Murray not to mention to the paramedics giving him propofol."
True, but Murray HAD to go to jail (for his own safety). He would have known propofol would be found at autopsy, an autopsy he was even reported request. His stuff ups were deliberate cause no one could stuff up that much by accident imo.
@Misstrinity....looks like the corpse theory has some support here. If we take TS' last posts at face value, what is left is corpse or dummy theory anyway. One of them has to be true.
Post by: MJonmind on December 01, 2011, 03:36:42 PM
Gina
Quote
To those who believe MJ is alive but not coming back- I truly believe you should have much hope, because IF he's alive - he will be back. That is one thing I've never doubted or feared./bravo/
Be TheChange
Quote
Once again, TMZ had the 'inside scoop' before anyone else did. I think there's only a couple possible reasons as to how they would've known beforehand. One reason could be if a deputy somehow spilled the beans. But, I'm not sure if a deputy is even in the room with the jurors...or if one is just posted outside the deliberation room. I guess that's a possibility.So much toilet talk. Murray went to the bathroom when MJ died. Now TMZ saying the jury went down the toilet. Remember when the Judge said #1 jurist needed to go to the bathroom? In a courtroom session? Wow. Maybe he’s the plant that leaked the verdict to TMZ. He may have influenced the jury to make the guilty verdict as required by the script-writer. Does anyone know who #1 was again?
But IMO, the more likely reason is because someone on that jury was 'planted'....he/she was the source of the info. Assuming the whole jury wasn't 'in on it'....I think a 'planted' jury member is highly likely cause MJ would want someone on the 'inside' listening in and reporting back. This would've been very easy to do IF both the DA and defense attorneys were 'in on it'...and I believe they were.
Gina, you can't say only corpse or dummy theory, when TS has definately supported the person on life support in the past? That is the one that makes the most sense to have the fewest, next to MJ himself. Or as Trinity took us back to the April thread, Souza suggested an assisted suicide person. But I say LIVING up till when Murray goes to the bathroom, returns to find him not breathing.
Heartsong
Quote
I think the patient was alive when brought to Carolwood ("there was someone else in the room", reported deviance from routine) then Murray administered all the drugs found in the AR including the propofol which killed him. That way all the urine found at the scene, plus the toxicology samples would not have to be falsified by the coroner, neither would any of the evidence found at the scene. All the coroner would have to falsify would be the physical features while overlooking the patients true illness (& name).Again, well said for life support patient.
Plus, Murray would not have to address the issues of the stages a dead body goes thru in death (rigor, lividity). Had the person already been dead for a long time it would have been apparent to medical officers (as it was they already suspected time of death was earlier than Murray said. I think it was too, as Murray would have had to make sure the patient had truly passed before making calls. Wouldn't want him being revived!), in which case they would have had to have been brought into the hoax, an undesirable option for many reasons. Plus a live person would have been much easier to get into the house at 1am in the morning (less people involved). I don't think a hospice patient was "bought". Don't forget Michael's affinity to sick people and the love they have for him because of it...
I think as much as possible had to be "authentic" in the scenario. If it is was possible to introduce the propofol to the system of the patient to ensure it showed up in the report, that is one less thing that needed to be falsified- one less person who needed to know. And a peaceful way for a terminally ill patient to end their suffering.
Love to you all.
Curls
Quote
I sense a weariness about you (and others) that I too have this week. I've hardly posted anything because there's nothing to say. I'm tired of reading desperate attempts to find 'clues' - no offense meant to those that do but I don't want or need clues anymore. I don't think we'll ever work out, as a group, team or individually, the details of the hoax - TS has said as much - and they're not even that important to me any more. I'm tired of reading BAM dates that get people's hopes up and never come to anything. I'm pretty sure I know where it's all heading. I know MJ is alive and I'm pretty certain I know what makes him tick. I hope things are going the way he wants. I hope the world wakes up, with or without MJ.We’ve thought this way many times, but it gets in your blood. Why would MJ pull us all into this, if he didn’t want us to stay. TS is reading what we say, and appreciates us putting our heart and soul into our posts. He hasn't given up on us, so why would we give up on him and MJ's hoax. See his posts below:
TS on November 28, 2011, 11:35:50 PM
Quote
Let me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30).TS on November 25, 2011, 01:34:11 AM
Nevertheless, even though I have received great opposition from many: I have never received any opposition from the hoax insiders (family, TMZ, etc); quite the opposite, both the family and TMZ have supported TS/TIAI on several occasions {including the recent Too Short article, http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/);http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0)}. And this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
I’ve said the following before, but it is worth repeating. This is the only hoax forum that I have ever posted on, and it is also the only hoax forum or website that TMZ ever linked to in their blogroll; this blogroll is no longer on their home page, but it is still on their website and still has a link to our forum on it {http://www.tmz.com/blogroll (http://www.tmz.com/blogroll)}. For a long time, many have thought that TMZ was just another unreliable tabloid media source—that they have merely been playing with hoax believers, and don’t really have any inside information about the hoax. Well, TS has always supported TMZ; and recently, La Toya also supported TMZ: “But there’s more to the story guys, and Harvey knows that; Harvey Levin knows that (don’t you Harvey).” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM)}.
I could cite many more examples, both from TMZ and the family; however, I have already done that many times in the past, so I only added a couple of newer examples here. But I will close with the following, which sums it up in short. The whole world, INCLUDING HOAX BELIEVERS, need to wake up to the reality of the seriousness of the danger—not for the sake of fear and mind-control, as some people have claimed; but rather for the sake of awareness and preparation: forewarned is forearmed!
Quote
Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality. For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.
Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax. Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): “LIKE YOU’VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE”! This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ. The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.
Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project. If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again. The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his “death” on a second attempt. And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: “… the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented.” {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6 (http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6)}. So let’s be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.
Im_convincedMJalive, I appreciate all that you write. We're all in this together!
Post by: MsTrinity333 on December 01, 2011, 03:38:58 PM
MsTrinity333- The comment you posted of mine did not say nobody supported the idea of using a corpse or that this was a sting op. My comment said I didn't feel like many were supporting ME or MY theory. I was referring to level 6 when I was defending the sting theory and corpse theory. I have participated in every level and I have seen/read all the comments made towards the corpse and sting theory but again I was stating I didn't feel that many were supporting me. Just because others have a convo amongst themselves doesn't mean they are supporting me and my theories. To know if someone is supporting your ideas it usually helps if the person writes I agree and has a convo with you directly or if they are against it they ask questions and you know for sure someone is at least reading and taking in the info for consideration.
The issue in this thread and why I believe it stalled is because before you posted the comments it appears not many want to accept that a corpse was used or the court has a sting side to it. I believe many are having a hard time with the idea and therefore totally dismissing it.
Sooner or later a general consensus must be made to move forward. I don't believe that people who have wrote theories and strong points towards a corpse or sting were just guessing. I believe that after they took everything into consideration the corpse and sting op was the only logical conclusion and therefore when writing about it they believed in it not just guessing.
Thanks for adding those comments.
Don't feel bad; lots of people's comments & ideas have been ignored or dismissed. I was just trying to support what you & others have said in the past.
bearhug
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 01, 2011, 03:52:45 PM
Quote
Gina, you can't say only corpse or dummy theory, when TS has definately supported the person on life support in the past? That is the one that makes the most sense to have the fewest, next to MJ himself. Or as Trinity took us back to the April thread, Souza suggested an assisted suicide person. But I say LIVING up till when Murray goes to the bathroom, returns to find him not breathing.
When I say "corpse" I understand any form of getting that corpse, like person on life support disconnected that day, or any other form of getting a corpse...I don't know, you name it.
Post by: curls on December 01, 2011, 03:58:18 PM
CurlsQuoteI sense a weariness about you (and others) that I too have this week. I've hardly posted anything because there's nothing to say. I'm tired of reading desperate attempts to find 'clues' - no offense meant to those that do but I don't want or need clues anymore. I don't think we'll ever work out, as a group, team or individually, the details of the hoax - TS has said as much - and they're not even that important to me any more. I'm tired of reading BAM dates that get people's hopes up and never come to anything. I'm pretty sure I know where it's all heading. I know MJ is alive and I'm pretty certain I know what makes him tick. I hope things are going the way he wants. I hope the world wakes up, with or without MJ.We’ve thought this way many times, but it gets in your blood. Why would MJ pull us all into this, if he didn’t want us to stay. TS is reading what we say, and appreciates us putting our heart and soul into our posts. He hasn't given up on us, so why would we give up on him and MJ's hoax.
Just to be clear MJonmind, I'm not going anywhere, or giving up on anyone or anything. I just expressed a weariness and maybe a recent personal change in what my 'heart and soul' want/need from this hoax.
Post by: Heartsong on December 01, 2011, 04:23:45 PM
Gina:yes but if we agree this is a hoax there had to be no autopsy. Is it possible that a corpse of somebody else than MJ, even stuffed with propofol, would have fooled the coroner?
"I understand your principles but if the above scenario is true - then there was no reason for Murray not to mention to the paramedics giving him propofol."
True, but Murray HAD to go to jail (for his own safety). He would have known propofol would be found at autopsy, an autopsy he was even reported request. His stuff ups were deliberate cause no one could stuff up that much by accident imo.
@Misstrinity....looks like the corpse theory has some support here. If we take TS' last posts at face value, what is left is corpse or dummy theory anyway. One of them has to be true.
No, I don't think a corpse would have fooled the coroner therefore I think the coroner had to be brought in on it BUT it had to convince everyone else involved in the process, since there were so many others involved in the report. To me the scenario needed to be kept as close to actuality as possible. IE: An actual dead body with actual toxicology in line with the evidence from the scene and Murrays report to police.
Then only small parts would need to be tweaked, only a few people in on it. There is no dummy in this world that could fool all the hands that dummy would have had to go through. If a dummy was used, too many people would have had to be in the know, allowing way too much room for error/discovery.
The coroner would only have needed to falsify the physical attributes of the corpse to align them with Michael's physical attributes (vitiligo patterns, scars, tattoos, name etc) and disregard the patients real illness (terminal disease). Everything else was ACTUAL. Actual dead body, actual toxicology.
But you need to understand my personal take. I think Murray was put in place to murder MJ. Had Murray's plan run to fruition before he was discovered, we would have had an actual dead MJ. So, run the whole planned scenario through in your head, from Murray's nightly poisoning of MJ to MJ's eventual actual death. That is how it was supposed to go. Then Murray was discovered. But Murray and MJ knew they had to continue with the plot. The world (and the evil ones involved) had to believe MJ was dead. What needed to be put in place to protect MJ yet still achieve the same outcome (the world believing MJ was dead)?
Most importantly, they had to replace MJ's body with someone elses. Once that is decided upon what then has to be put in place? Who else needs to be brought in? What appearances need to be upheld, not only to protect Michael but now to protect Murray as well? Carefully step through the scenario. Carefully step through the process of a death investigation. It had to be scripted, with evidence STEERING and FEINTING the outcome in the right direction, like a fencing duel or a flow chart.
Murray had to go to jail. To take the rap, to convince the public that MJ was really dead, to be the scapegoat, to take the attention off "others", to redeem himself, to keep himself safe.
I used to not like Murray until I heard him say: "I was helping Michael". At first I scoffed then I thought, wait a minute? Parsimony. HE WAS HELPING MICHAEL.
bearhug
Post by: MsTrinity333 on December 01, 2011, 05:52:13 PM
Gina:yes but if we agree this is a hoax there had to be no autopsy. Is it possible that a corpse of somebody else than MJ, even stuffed with propofol, would have fooled the coroner?
"I understand your principles but if the above scenario is true - then there was no reason for Murray not to mention to the paramedics giving him propofol."
True, but Murray HAD to go to jail (for his own safety). He would have known propofol would be found at autopsy, an autopsy he was even reported request. His stuff ups were deliberate cause no one could stuff up that much by accident imo.
@Misstrinity....looks like the corpse theory has some support here. If we take TS' last posts at face value, what is left is corpse or dummy theory anyway. One of them has to be true.
No, I don't think a corpse would have fooled the coroner therefore I think the coroner had to be brought in on it BUT it had to convince everyone else involved in the process, since there were so many others involved in the report. To me the scenario needed to be kept as close to actuality as possible. IE: An actual dead body with actual toxicology in line with the evidence from the scene and Murrays report to police.
Then only small parts would need to be tweaked, only a few people in on it. There is no dummy in this world that could fool all the hands that dummy would have had to go through. If a dummy was used, too many people would have had to be in the know, allowing way too much room for error/discovery.
The coroner would only have needed to falsify the physical attributes of the corpse to align them with Michael's physical attributes (vitiligo patterns, scars, tattoos, name etc) and disregard the patients real illness (terminal disease). Everything else was ACTUAL. Actual dead body, actual toxicology.
But you need to understand my personal take. I think Murray was put in place to murder MJ. Had Murray's plan run to fruition before he was discovered, we would have had an actual dead MJ. So, run the whole planned scenario through in your head, from Murray's nightly poisoning of MJ to MJ's eventual actual death. That is how it was supposed to go. Then Murray was discovered. But Murray and MJ knew they had to continue with the plot. The world (and the evil ones involved) had to believe MJ was dead. What needed to be put in place to protect MJ yet still achieve the same outcome (the world believing MJ was dead)?
Most importantly, they had to replace MJ's body with someone elses. Once that is decided upon what then has to be put in place? Who else needs to be brought in? What appearances need to be upheld, not only to protect Michael but now to protect Murray as well? Carefully step through the scenario. Carefully step through the process of a death investigation. It had to be scripted, with evidence STEERING and FEINTING the outcome in the right direction, like a fencing duel or a flow chart.
Murray had to go to jail. To take the rap, to convince the public that MJ was really dead, to be the scapegoat, to take the attention off "others", to redeem himself, to keep himself safe.
I used to not like Murray until I heard him say: "I was helping Michael". At first I scoffed then I thought, wait a minute? Parsimony. HE WAS HELPING MICHAEL.
bearhug
The coroner is in on it; the report was finalized 09-09-09 TS brought that up a while back.
Post by: paula-c on December 01, 2011, 07:38:26 PM
It is good remember the identification of MJ in the hospital. If a John Doe is found and not claimed I believe the body will be identified by dental records if possible. The body supposed to be MJ was ID by Latoya.
The autopsy report does talk about his dental work. But only to list it in the autopsy. Not to compare it to MJs dental records.
So they didnt use dental work of the body to ID it as MJ. We seem to remember that it was said it was difficult to find a complete record of dental work on MJ, in one page they say the body presents all natural teeth and in another from some record from MJ dental work it says there has been some dental work. Two different things for the same body.
The autopsy report specifically says that the body was ID through his driver´s license. On protocol from emergency room patient ID in California it says they use picture ID to identify a patient. The question to ask here is why this was used to ID the body as MJ.
Post by: Andrea on December 01, 2011, 08:24:50 PM
Post by: bec on December 01, 2011, 09:04:20 PM
For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7.
Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court.
who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009<----that's it. Forget helicopter, forget van, forget ER team of doctors, forget coroner, forget autopsy. Everything else is irrelevant, or so it seems based on how TS structured his levels.
So if we were to keep in mind the original objective we might not have such an impossible task clearly still ahead of us.
Post by: Heartsong on December 01, 2011, 09:25:49 PM
All we were supposed to determine was who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance on 6/25/09. Not who or what was in the helicopter or the coroner van or had the autopsy done to it or even who or what did Dr. Cooper and her alleged "team" work on.For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7.Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court.
who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009<----that's it. Forget helicopter, forget van, forget ER team of doctors, forget coroner, forget autopsy. Everything else is irrelevant, or so it seems based on how TS structured his levels.
So if we were to keep in mind the original objective we might not have such an impossible task clearly still ahead of us.
Very true bec, but what went to UCLA has to FIT into the picture otherwise it would be impossible to figure out what went there. What went to UCLA is one part of the whole puzzle. I feel we must consider this when making up our minds.
I just found this interesting comment from a (lengthy) interview conducted by Harvey Levin with Arnold Klein. I thought about putting it in the "doctors" thread but decided it would be more relevant here:
Quote
Levin I want to ask you something. You had told me a story of Sunday that was almost chilling, almost premonition-like, about the last time he visited your office.
Klein Yeah. He said goodbye to everyone and I really felt very weird about that.
Levin When was this?
Klein This was the last time I saw him. I don’t even remember what the date was, because I mean, he was…
Levin Roughly.
Klein When did he die?
Levin The 25th of June.
Klein It was about five before that, the last time he came to the office. He went around to everyone in my office and said goodbye.
Levin Was that unusual?
Klein Yeah, he never does that. He went round, even to the file clerk and, you know, the file clerk, Luis, who’s from Jamaica, almost fainted because he never talked to Michael before. Michael went around to every single person you know. And I have a brother who’s learning-disabled, who’s schizophrenic, you probably don’t know that, and I take care of him and Michael always would come to my house and ask me how my brother was and want to see my brother.
The whole interview can be found here: http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/?blogsub=confirming#subscribe-blog (http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/?blogsub=confirming#subscribe-blog)
Also this cryptic video Jafaar tweeted illustrating sleight of hand:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxbJTsjUQR8[/youtube]
and a link to some art work he put up:
http://jaafarjacksonphotography.tumblr.com/ (http://jaafarjacksonphotography.tumblr.com/)
I'm sure there is hidden meaning here but you guys are better at this than me lolol/
L.O.V.E
Post by: bec on December 01, 2011, 09:50:15 PM
Very true bec, but what went to UCLA has to FIT into the picture otherwise it would be impossible to figure out what went there. What went to UCLA is one part of the whole puzzle. I feel we must consider this when making up our minds.
But one does not equate the other. What went into the ground floor entrance of the ER need not be what came out on the roof. Any connection of these two events is based solely on what the media led the viewer to believe and nothing more. Anything that happened inside that hospital is all hearsay and conjecture. I mean if you really want to get to the cut n dry of the matter... this is TS's level and he defined it as such:
Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.
Because if you're going to say you can use the visual information of the body in the helicopter and van loading as a way to determine the prior events (reasoning: what came out is what went in UCLA), then logically the same reasoning applies to Van Video and say MJ himself (or a double) was under that sheet the whole time.
Because really, what's the difference?
So really, just throw all that stuff past UCLA out and focus only on what went there (presumably from Carrolwood since we determined the ambulance that was there on 6/25/09 went to UCLA).
Don't be concerned with what happened once there. Don't be concerned with how to a) hide a dummy b) fool a team of docs c)satisfy features of the autopsy. At least for purposes of the level. TS doesn't even say these things will be addressed anyway. We go straight from this (who or what went to UCLA) to:
7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court.
which your guess is as good as mine about what that indicates.
Post by: Andrea on December 01, 2011, 10:00:08 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1HGko9uiAE[/youtube]
Post by: PureLove on December 01, 2011, 10:19:45 PM
Post by PureLove » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:59 pm
Probably a real body had to be used to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. They didn't want the EMTs or coroners or hospital know about the hoax.
PureLove wrote:
Well if we all believe the FBI cooperation with Michael, we shouldn't worry about the explanation part of the hoax when it ends because I do not believe that Michael will pop up and try to explain everything by himself. I do believe that it will be a formal one and the FBI is definitely going to be there and instead of Michael, they will be the ones who is going to explain the details of the hoax. And if a dead body was used, I do believe that it was FBI's idea to keep as few people as possible in on the hoax. So I do not believe it would be a problem for Michael after he comes back when they explain the details of the hoax like a dead body was used etc.
I still go with a dead body was used theory. It doesn't sound sick or impossible to me. And no need to be a magic that FBI did. It's not too hard to find someone died close to that hour and they might have used it to keep as few people as possible on the hoax. Michael didn't need to plan every each of the details, FBI was helping him out about it too. So it could be FBI's choice to use a dead body. And as I wrote before, just a couple of key people in everywhere like the coroner, the hospital etc would be enough to pull the hoax.
Ahhh thank you for posting these posts Trinity. I don't even remember when exactly I wrote these but they're cool. lol And it is good to see myself that I'm still behind the same theory that I wrote at the beginning. I'm just flattering myself a little. Try to bare with me people. geek/
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 02, 2011, 12:51:37 AM
If a corpse was used to "fool" the doctors and coroner......I think it is more logical to have a corpse but it is clear and I've said it before and others also said it that it was not needed to fool the coroner.
Just paramedics and UCLA.
Anyway, lets' say there was a real autopsy on real MJ. We had a few people testifying MJ was in a bad condition days before death/'death", one part of the body cold, the other one warm (!!!), not being able to walk on stairs and so on. But the autopsy says a healthy man died of acute propofol intoxication. Now how could that man be found healthy at the autopsy when people testifyed they had emergency meetting concerning MJ's health days before death?
Post by: heartwarrior on December 02, 2011, 12:59:09 AM
Post by: MJonmind on December 02, 2011, 02:10:32 AM
Quote
I just found this interesting comment from a (lengthy) interview conducted by Harvey Levin with Arnold Klein. I thought about putting it in the "doctors" thread but decided it would be more relevant here:
The whole interview can be found here: http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/?blogsub=confirming#subscribe-blog (http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/?blogsub=confirming#subscribe-blog)
Thanks for posting this! I spent about an hour wading/skimming through it. I might have read a shortened version back in 09. Klein is supersmart, a rambler, quite strange, and I'm not sure if he's in or not. He clearly says that Michael was not the same the last weeks before his death, eyes glassy, and needle marks all over his body that he didn't have before. He seems convinced that Murray must have had to have a nurse to find the veins each night because he was a cardiologist not a surgeon. He said he had never met Murray even though he Klein had been over at MJ's for Christmas. He said propofol exhaled would make the doctor sleepy. Klein is a speed talker--could fill tabloids with stuff about people. So is he lying, or was there a double that came to his office the last 6 weeks. I know this was discussed way back. But there's no way someone that knew Michael for 20+ years so well even his physical body, would suddenly be fooled by someone impersonating him. If MJ had a twin, why would he allow himself to be riddled with needles and die by injection of propofol, as that scenario would be. I lean towards Klein being in on the hoax, as is Harvey who is interviewing him here. He's smart enough to keep his story together without contradicting himself or slipping up, no small feat. Easiest match is that MJ really was addicted and died, but we know that didn't happen, so...
/judge/ /scream/
Post by: Sarahli on December 02, 2011, 08:38:28 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 02, 2011, 09:02:25 AM
The only "thing" you would have to change is the person who "died" finally (considering that a soulless body is a dead person already).
I tend to agree with this.
Post by: Snoopy71 on December 02, 2011, 09:05:25 AM
Photographic Evidence (yipes!) :?
If we accept that the "body" wrapped in the sheets of the autopsy photo is the same "body" that went to UCLA that day---it solves a myriad of loose ends (i.e what was transported from Carolwood, used in the helicopter and the van etc...etc...)
It is the most simplistic answer...and I don't think the purpose of this picture is arbitrary, it was given for a reason. suspicious//
So what is this?
A replica dummy or a real cadaver made to look like MJ.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2qamrec.jpg)
Post by: fordtocarr on December 02, 2011, 09:23:01 AM
We have not proven that ALL the paramedics are in on it. We do not know if medical staff at UCLA was fiction, it can have happened as well. We are supposed to take things as they would have happened for real, therefore considering this perspective these people cannot all be involved in the hoax and the only way to "fool" them is with a terminally ill patient who would have died that day. That's the only "option" that requires the LEAST people in the know and it doesn't change much of what would have happened if it was all real. The only "thing" you would have to change is the person who "died" finally (considering that a soulless body is a dead person already).
I don't know anymore about the terminally ill patient. I posted that a MY guess years ago and was shot down big time!!!!!!!!!! They said how'd that patient happen to die on the very date that made the numbers fit? And also, if it wasn't dead, what'd they do pull his plug that day?! From the beginning that made sense to me, in a CRUDE way.... but hey...I've been shot down for 2.5 years. Glad you speculated as I have on the same thing ;)
Post by: paula-c on December 02, 2011, 10:06:55 AM
Phillip Anscutz is an evil man who I and many know is responsible for the events that led to the death of Michael Jackson . Even though Mr Anschutz is anti-gay, anti-lesbian and anti–black he is very very rich, so rich that people do not care that he is an extremely bigoted and greedy man. In the City of Los Angeles AEG controls not only the professional teams, The Staples Center, the Media but additionally the Judicial System,Homeland Security, The US Attorney and all of Law Enforcement. As Michael told me he had to do 30 shows or he would lose Neverland , his entire music catalogue and possibly his children. While I assured Michael this was impossible look at what has happened. The promoter JackWishna first brought Michael to Las Vegas from Ireland to do Rock City. Michael had become insolvent because he had he essentially mortgaged his music catalogue to promote the CD Invincible and also borrowed against this catalogue from the Prince of Bahrain. Even if Michael never wanted to tour again his financial difficulties made it necessary. Michael arrived in Las Vegas from Ireland sober but after a short time he became so physically and mentally disabled he,according to Wishna, could not do 2 shows a month. This was the result of two issues that plaqued Michael. One was the drug Propofol. Steven Hoefflin was Dr Propofol, the white wizard, who sedated Michael every night while he was on tour. No wonder Hoefflin toured with him! Michael paid him a lot. He bought Hoefflin cars and aesthesia machines, but what Hoefflin never ever knew was that Michael had never trusted him. For years in Santa Monica, Hoefflin had pretended to operate on Michael and then sent him a huge bill for work he had never done. In addition to forcing him to sign stacks of records and asking him to sign drawings Michael never made, by the early 90’s, Hoefflin had begun to fake surgery on Michael . How would the money-hungry Hoefflin do this? He would give Michael Propofol and Versed and turn the operating room clocks ahead ahead by hours. Michael would then be awakened, gaze at the clocks, then settle back to sleep. Again and again Michael thought he had hours of nasal surgery when in fact he was only unconscious for several minutes. Hoefflin was deceiving Michael so frequently that eventually the other doctors there tried to intervene, arguing that administering the anaesthetic constantly was dangerous. Michael began going over Hoefflin’s office to nap on Propofol and soon he could not sleep without the drug. It was his greatest fear but by the mid 90’s Michael was a drug addict, .,. The Elvis Presley of Propofol. The other problem Michael had was his family who always were in need of funds. Once Rock City fell through Michael had to find a way out . Jermaine introduced Michael to Tohme Tohme, a Lebanese-American and he became Jackson’s business manager. He contacted fellow Lebanese-American Tom Barack.Barrack had a relationship with the Neverland's loan holder, Fortress, and was able to get an extension to give his Colony team time to crunch the numbers. He bought the loan on Neverland and said to Michael "Where you are is an insolvable puzzle unless you’re willing to go back to work ..it’s just presiding over a funeral."Colony agreed to bail out Michael in return, the firm would take ownership of Neverland and arrange for AEG, the concert promoter owned by Barrack’s friend Phil Anschutz, to stage a comeback.Incidentally Barrack also held the mortgage on the home of an almost bankrupt physician Conrad Murray. An unforeseen complication arose when Barrack received a call from the King of Bahrain, whom he knew from Sardinia, where Barrack owns much of the Costa Smeralda; astonishingly, Jackson had apparently forgotten that while being hosted in Bahrain, he had signed over the rights to his catalogue to the king’s son. Colony had to buy out that interest. Jackson moved into a gated $100,000-a-month mansion in Bel-Air and began to prepare for a run of 50 concerts in London he could never do! He was struggling physically and heavily medicated by a live-in doctor. He died, from a sedative overdose, eighteen days before the first concert. But in the frenzy of posthumous adulation of Jackson, it was hard to find an FM radio station that wasn’t playing Billie Jean or Beat It. Barrack watched as Jackson’s value was suddenly and spectacularly realized. "This Is It," a documentary about Jackson’s preparation for the comeback concerts, grossed $261 million worldwide during its theatrical run, a record for a concert film, and the Jackson estate signed a series of lucrative deals, including a video game and a Cirque du Soleil show. What’s amazing, Barrack says, is he attained in death what he could never attain in life. It may be an obvious observation, but it’s one with huge financial implications for a long-term investor. Anyone who had seen past the momentary distractions of controversy and scandal could have identified the intrinsic preciousness of Jackson’s talent and fan base. Colony hadn’t predicted Jackson would die, of course, but it had wagered correctly that, over time, Michael Jackson the asset would outshine its liabilities (and even Michael Jackson the person).Clearly Philip Anschutz /AEG hired Murray because an incompetent physcian would serve their needs much more so than a competent one.During the last week of his life Michael resigned with his most hated Lawyer Branca. Why? Because Murray was unable to start IV’s and was giving Michael Propofol right into his muscles! Michael became stoned 24 hours a day and essentially did not know what he was doing. The nurses up at Carolwood knew this but the public missed it. Why do you think There were marks all over his body? So Judge Partridge you used my medical records when I was not even in the USA so let me speak.I will tell you and the world why Barrack ,Tohme Tohme,Randy Phillips, Howard Weitzman and John Branca all participated in this terrible conspiracy and were responsible for people believing I had anything to do with Michael’s death. Why have you allowed my records to be illegally released and finally,why have you nor anyone else reacted against the two individuals who attempted to kill me during this mess.
A note from AG in Italy:
Where are the tapes of surveillance cameras in June 25, 2009? They were extinguished? Were deleted? Stolen? I didn't understand well it, but in my opinion Tomhe Tomhe is involved. And Murray...Murray had debts to Colony Capital for a loan of money which he had been unable to return due to costs for the maintenance of children and due to two causes for negligence which cost disbarement by Medical Board California. Furthermore, Murray may have been threatened by Colony Capital...choose between 'performance of works' and his own life.Still it is no excuse for what he did Considering the fact that Tohme Tohme had already threatened to death the representatives of Julien's Auction, to prevent the sale of Neverland's objects (objects that Tohme Tohme had personally chosen, among the many present in the House). This was the reason why Michael fired him. Tohme Tohme is an intermediary by Colony Capital, a muscleman and is a member of the Nation of Island
********** END **********
I could pull this apart piece by piece but I’m not going to. Only want to touch on a few glaring issues with his post.
Aside from the fact that the man does not believe in paragraphs (or the truth), this whole thing in general is the rantings of a man who quite frankly leaves me with a visual of a someone frantically clawing at the sides of a pit he is falling into. And with every movement he is increasing the rate of his fall.
It was Klein’s medical records and the subpoena of them in court that highlighted Klein’s crimes against Michael. Klein never got called in to testify (he wasn’t on trial, why would they call him?) Klein first wrote a blathering letter to the Justice Department complaining that his records were stolen and that AEG was behind it, then he claims that his records were leaked when he submitted them for payment from Michael’s estate.
Then Klein claims that those records were not his and he didn’t treat Michael in all of May and part of June, then he complains that he ‘deserves that money’ that he submitted to the estate because he did all this treatment and Michael could afford it. He charges for 170+ procedures and 51 Demoral injections in three months, then tries to claim he never gave them. And that’s just the beginning. (There is TONS of information in Klein’s continued and panicked rantings).
Arnold Klein has become the mouthpiece of those that did this to Michael. In his very first sentence, Klein attacks Philip Anshutz. Klein has never met the man. Neither have I, but I know Klein is lying. Why such animosity against a person Klein has never met? Where are the accusations of “anti-gay”, “anti-lesbian” and “anti-black” coming from and what does any of that have to do with Michael? Michael wasn’t gay or a lesbian. Michael is black, but the only slurs against blacks I have ever heard being uttered in regard to Michael is from those that accused him of wanting to be white. And we know who financed THAT bunch . . . Sony and the establishment.
How many blacks are consultants for the FDA? How many blacks work as professors in David Geffen’s school of medicine? How many blacks did Klein ever have working in his office either as assistants or medical professionals? (and are THEY still alive?)
We will get to more of that later. Right now I just want to concentrate on the post he put on Facebook.
Klein said – “In the City of Los Angeles AEG controls not only the professional teams, The Staples Center, the Media but additionally the Judicial System,Homeland Security, The US Attorney and all of Law Enforcement.”
Ummm, if this was the case and Murray worked for AEG – Then what is Murray doing in jail? Why was Murray even arrested? Why isn’t Klein in jail since AEG hates Gays and Lesbians (not sure which Klein is yet, maybe he’ll clarify). He didn’t even have to testify. He treated Michael but was never called in. Metzger was, Lee was, Murray was accused and convicted. How did Klein escape questioning?
AEG controls Homeland Security? Really? Not the Rothschilds and Rockefellers? Did this happen yesterday? If AEG controlled all the law enforcement, judicial system and the media, then tell me why AEG’s name was all over the news as culpable and Sony has been all but ignored?
Klein is a raving maniac, that much is clear. But why? I mean, he’s a free man, Murray is in jail and he has no reprisals for all the Demoral he pumped into Michael. So what is his problem?
Just who is he working for?
Oh yes . . . The David Geffen School of Medicine and the FDA. I wonder what it is they are responsible for that Klein has to completely deplete any integrity he has by propagandizing against a company that as far as my research has revealed, quietly and without publicity funds organizations that improve lives for families. I found the “Foundation for a Better Life” which pays for positive messages aimed at young people on billboards, magazines and on T.V., and “The Discovery Institute” which has fought to stop the raping of rights of people of faith.
While I do not consider the Anschutz Corporation perfect by any stretch of the imagination, I don’t consider every one with money evil either (Michael is a prime example). They are far more family and faith friendly then most of the corporations out there lobbying for control of us. I don’t know Philip Anschutz personally, I have never met him, but given an opportunity, I would much rather run into HIM on a lonely street then the rabid Dr. Klein. But If I had a choice, I’d rather run into Michael than Anschutz . . . fair enough?
What else about Klein’s block of text, hmmmm . . . Oh, he quotes the likes of Jack Wishna, a “promoter” . . . Now, how is THIS promoter any different than any of the others who have used and abused Michael personally and financially in his years of service to the human race?
Jack Wishna is a thug who described Michael’s house as a pig sty in one article I had the misfortune of reading back in 2010. This is Jack Wishna’s information –
“He has also partnered with Tony Orlando who was the youngest VP at Columbia Records, now Sony Music, and headed April Blackwood Music Publishing arm under the legendary Clive Davis[4] .” - Source
Well there you go . . . Wishna must be believable because he worked with Sony and Clive Davis. Yep. We know how good Sony was to Michael right? This is who Klein is foaming at the mouth to protect?
Here is Jack Wishna’s real interest in Michael as apparently under the radar he is still using Michael’s name to try and launch a fan-funded Music endeavor.
“Wishna then brought aboard Don Kirshner, the legendary rock promoter and producer, and friend to Michael Jackson, to further help shape rockcityclub.com . . . He was excited to come back to America, and I am very proud and honored to have had Michael as part of our early company history. We will honor his memory and the legacy he left behind for millions of fans around the world.”
Source
So now we know why Klein is injecting Wishna’s name . . . helping a pal promote his fledgling endeavor pathetically claiming Michael had anything to do with it. I guess Wishna thought Klein’s name-dropping would somehow add credibility to him when fans believed nothing he had to say two years ago when he first popped up out of the mire.
Now in all fairness to Wishna, he could very well be unconnected to all this and Klein is just throwing names out there, but coupled with the press releases – Source – You can see that Wishna is taking to capitalizing on Michael rather recently and just in time for the verdict and sentencing.
And in this article – Source – he is effectively aligning himself with the estate, which I guess is why they are letting him get away with using Michael’s name to launch his business. In this article Wishna is quoted as having been a friend of Michael’s for over a decade (hmmm, don’t recall hearing his name in 2005 during the trial either). He is also concerned about the feelings of the family in airing the Murray documentary. However his ‘friend” Klein is busy slamming the family all over facebook.
I think brain matter begins to break down with each lie that a person tells because these people are just not even keeping track of them anymore.
So Jack Wishna is in bed with the estate and Klein, but Klein is not in bed with the estate but is in bed with Wishna – confused yet? (it gets better).
My response to Mimi yesterday about the taping of Michael that Murray did:
Mimi said - "Yesterday Judge pastor assumed the same thing I was assuming all along about Murray tape recording Michael in slurred state."
........... I never assumed that. I assumed that since propofol doesn't DO THAT, that Murray taped Michael because SOMEONE ELSE DRUGGED MICHAEL and Murray wanted to get it on tape. Since it was a Sunday on the date of the recording, it had to be someone else in the house. Why would Murray tape Michael and possible incriminate himself?
The Murray tape date and time stamp was May 5, 2009 at 9:05 am. That was on a Sunday. Let me show you something from Dr. Klein’s interview with Harvey Levin in November of 2009:
“ . . . Michael’s not here anymore and I think I have a right to that money and I’ll donate to a charity in his name. But I have a right to the money for the work I did because I would take my whole weekends off. Do you know how many weekends I spent with him doing this, and just working on his face, trying to rebuild a face? It’s not easy.” Source
From my own notes on the trial where they went over Klein’s records of the days Michael was treated, Klein's notes revealed visits to Michael on May 4th, 5th and the 6th, each with $300mg’s of Demoral intramuscularly administered. My notes copied from that day in the Murray trial are below the screen shot of the May 4th visit:
Screen shot of Klein’s Records
May 4th is the bottom visit showing
<!--[if !supportLists]-->1- <!--[endif]-->200mg dose of Demoral and 1 – 100mg of Demoral
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gaQLBlYsuj0/TtiF62uPA5I/AAAAAAAADGQ/IwdUFPov-dg/s640/MJ+2011+Trial+Klein+Records+4th+of+May+300.JPG)
“-Chernoff asks if Waldman formed an opinion that based on the records Michael was not only taking Demoral but dependent on it. This is based on 6 weeks of frequent, high dose use and would make anyone dependent on opiods.
May 5th (no more pictures)
300mgs of Demoral 2mgs of Midazolam
- Chernoff does not see any signatures or initials from a doctor on the records. May 6th 300mgs of Demoral and May 5th another 300mgs. May 4th 300mgs were provided so in three days 900 mgs of Demoral.
-Chernoff goes to May 19th and May 20th
Michael recieved 200mmg each day of Demoral plus 2mg of Versed and on one of those days 300mmg's 200 at one time and 100 about 90 minutes later on May 21 and May 22nd.” Source
So the May 5th recording that Conrad Murray made was NOT because he felt compelled to sell Michael’s recording for money as the Judge so erroneously ASSUMED, but because within THREE DAYS of Klein’s visits (over the weekend and a Monday!) Klein pumped Michael full of 900 milligrams of Demoral . . . in THREE DAYS! I’m surprised he’s not dead! (Sorry).
Klein is full of crap, trying to tell us he wasn’t in the country all of May and didn’t treat Michael. He apparently was sure enough about it to fight for that money he feels he “DESERVES”!
900 MILLIGRAMS IN THREE DAYS! WTF??? (language, I’m sorry)
This is Ghazarian’s Answer to Klein’s Records
Note at 0:32 He uses the term “Saudi Defense”
Is that a term Zionists use?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtu9BuokaN0
This one, Ghazarian claims Dr. Murray is an Internist . . . not he’s not
At least Dr. Drew admitted that after three days of these dosages they would have had to airlift his patient to the hospital.
Again . . . there is NO SUCH THING AS ADDICTION TO PROPOFOL! It does not stay in the body long enough for the body to develop a dependency.
Let’s look at some symptoms of Demoral withdrawls:
“Obviously, the severity of withdrawal symptoms experienced is directly related to the amount of Demerol taken and the length of time over which it has been taken. Generally speaking, "cold turkey" quitting of this medication is not recommended. If you use Demerol regularly and wish to stop taking this medication, consult first with your physician.
"Cold turkey" withdrawal symptoms can occur four to five hours after the last dose and usually lasts 7 to 10 days. Demerol withdrawal symptoms include but are not limited to: severe anxiety, insomnia, profuse sweating, muscle spasms, chills, shivering and tremors.” Source
Wow. You know what that sounds like? That sounds a LOT like what Kenny Ortega, Karen Faye and the Vampire gang was describing!
Symptoms of dependency!
· A strong desire or need to continue taking the medicine.
· A need to increase the dose to maintain the effects of the medicine.
· Withdrawal syndrome occurring after the medicine is stopped. Source
Symptoms of Demoral Overdose:
Demerol overdose presents with bluish colored skin; cold and clammy skin; coma or extreme sleepiness; limp, weak muscles; low blood pressure; slow heartbeat; troubled or slowed breathing. In the case of overdose, immediate medical attention is required. Source
Here’s something that scared me:
“The major hazard of Demerol is respiratory depression. To a lesser degree, other risks are circulatory depression; respiratory arrest, shock, and cardiac arrest. ” Source
Propfol while propfol/Diprivan does have similar cautionary notes, Propofol does NOT have addiction or withdrawl symptoms. Here is what I found from Propofol:
“- rapid onset of and emergence from sedation,
- short pharmacologic serum half-life,
- absence of pharmacologically active metabolites,
- and rapid metabolic clearance. ” Source
Withdrawl symptoms? Since Propofol is quickly metabolized and cleared by the body, this study I found said withdrawl symptoms were inconclusive due to the patient also being administered benzodiazapines:
“Although these data further implicate the association between prolonged propofol infusions and withdrawal syndrome, the investigators were unable to identify a risk for prolonged propofol infusions exceeding a specific number of days as the definitive cause for precipitous withdrawal symptoms. More intense symptoms may reflect prolonged administration of high dosages of opioids and benzodiazepines rather than the withdrawal of propofol infusions exclusively. The limited and inconclusive information concerning propofol withdrawal syndrome provides little direct guidance to the administration of propofol and the risk of sudden and profound drug withdrawal.” Source and here Source Scroll down to “Warnings and Precautions” – No Withdrawls or addiction risks listed.
Perhaps Dr. Murray taped Michael because he KNEW Michael was being OVER MEDICATED!!! Way over! And he wanted to get it on tape to both show Michael and show the show producers what Klein was doing!
This does not excuse Murray using Propofol in the home. But I would sure like to know why the coroners’s did not find any Demoral in Michael’s system after such a long period (three months) of frequent and high dosages (51 shots in 3 months for a total of 7,600 mgs (25 shots at 200mgs each and 26 shots at 100mgs each).
The symptoms for both Demoral dependency, overdose and withdrawls match EXACTLY what Ortega and Karen Faye described (even though I believed Karen Faye was full of it).
Propofol? No. Propofol would have been out of the system.
My problem with Murray remains with this: He taped Michael on May 5th, knowing or at least suspecting that someone was doping him up and he STILL gave him Propofol by his own admission. He suspected something!
Secondly, it was given in the home and he should have just said no. But if Michael could not sleep, Demoral is a DEFINITE cause of Insomnia, shivering and chills amongst other symptoms he exhibited.
Now the question is, why wasn’t Klein called in and investigated? Why did the judge make such disparaging remarks to Murray, calling him a liar when the prosecution’s witnesses couldn’t even collaborate their own testimonies, and why did Qbees and the MJJCommunity Website, a Sony funded and estate sanctioned MARKETING website take a collection from fans to send GIFTS to the PROSECUTION TEAM AND JUDGE?
Why is Klein all over his facebook page trying to cover up his own crimes by trying to implicate people who has NOTHING TO DO WITH MICHAEL’S TORMENT most of his life!
Why is Klein protecting Sony and Sony affiliated promoters? Where was Klein in 2005? Why didn’t Klein go to the press if he knew Michael was taking Propofol in 1996? Hoefflin didn’t TOUR with Michael . . . METZGER DID!
I’m not done . . . More tomorrow. MUCH more.
People, I need your help. I need you to dig up some information on Dr. Hoefflin, Dr. Metzger, Dr. and any affiliations Klein has with ANYONE who was Michael’s handlers . . . Weitzner, Geller, Boteach, Malnik, The Clintons, Bush, Music Industry suits like Mottola, Clive Davis, Koppleman, Weitzman (also Klein’s attorney even though he’s badmouthing him right now), Branca, Watenmaker and any other of Michael’s affiliates.
Remember what Randy Phillips said in his testimony during Murray’s trial? He asked Michael Amir if Michael was okay, and Amir replied, “he just came back from Kleins”.
http://michaelsguardian.blogspot.com/
Post by: MsTrinity333 on December 02, 2011, 02:03:43 PM
I don't like the leg I'm standing on, but I have to at least mention it.
Photographic Evidence (yipes!) :?
If we accept that the "body" wrapped in the sheets of the autopsy photo is the same "body" that went to UCLA that day---it solves a myriad of loose ends (i.e what was transported from Carolwood, used in the helicopter and the van etc...etc...)
It is the most simplistic answer...and I don't think the purpose of this picture is arbitrary, it was given for a reason. suspicious//
So what is this?
A replica dummy or a real cadaver made to look like MJ.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2qamrec.jpg)
I brought up the weird dates when Souza did her resizing of the pic... no body responded to that post. We know it's fake; but is it a real pic of MJ manipulated for this hoax or the MJ corpse look a like?
« Reply #1294 on: October 12, 2011, 09:37:16 AM »
Souza:
Okay, this is a little awkward, but I played with Michael's body a little... in Photoshop that is. And I put some more volume to the arms and I put the black box a little higher, because that is also an illusion to make his body look off. They still did something with the legs as well, parts are covered with the sheets (weird, since when are the in sheets on an autopsy table? I guess that would get too messy). I also pointed out where the nipples are in my opinion, since there seems to be a 'fake nipple' on his right that is too high. Either for the illusion or a dark spot, but not a nipple I think. And I pointed out where his belly button should be. I also made the legs a little longer without stretching the rest of the picture. Keep in mind that I spent only 5 minutes and I'm not a Photoshop expert.
Trinity:
Thanks for setting this up in better proportion Souza. This looks like MJ to me. Here are my thoughts on this pic:
#1. I think the date thing was MADE to draw attention. YES the 6 is actually a 9 turned upside down... I see 3 9's = 999 in the photo
#2. With the 6 looking like an 8 we have MJ telling us he posed for this shot on 8-25-2009. Two mos AFTER 'DEATH'. (?) This is a Set up & photo shopped = ALIVE
( I still question this whole date thing)
#3. The "truth" has been "stretched" and here we are literally naval gazing!...This is PRE-Autopsy as there is no Y cut & the date of supposed autopsy is wrong; it should be the 26th right?
Post by: Sarahli on December 02, 2011, 02:13:57 PM
We have not proven that ALL the paramedics are in on it. We do not know if medical staff at UCLA was fiction, it can have happened as well. We are supposed to take things as they would have happened for real, therefore considering this perspective these people cannot all be involved in the hoax and the only way to "fool" them is with a terminally ill patient who would have died that day. That's the only "option" that requires the LEAST people in the know and it doesn't change much of what would have happened if it was all real. The only "thing" you would have to change is the person who "died" finally (considering that a soulless body is a dead person already).
I don't know anymore about the terminally ill patient. I posted that a MY guess years ago and was shot down big time!!!!!!!!!! They said how'd that patient happen to die on the very date that made the numbers fit? And also, if it wasn't dead, what'd they do pull his plug that day?! From the beginning that made sense to me, in a CRUDE way.... but hey...I've been shot down for 2.5 years. Glad you speculated as I have on the same thing ;)
I wasn't much in favor of this theory at the beginning as well but they may really have "pulled the plug" (I strangely have Kenny Ortega's voice in my head saying that as I type :?), if it happens to be true then you would have been right from the start! respect/
Post by: MichaelsAngel on December 02, 2011, 02:25:44 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on December 02, 2011, 03:35:21 PM
I wish TS would come back :'(
Maybe if we all cry at the same time tonight?
(http://www.thebaglounge.com/images/smilies/neutral.gif)
With L.O.V.E. always.
Edited to add: Just realized this is my 777th post! C'mon TS....it's a special occasion ::P
/white flag/
Post by: paula-c on December 02, 2011, 07:41:54 PM
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/appear11.jpg)
Quote
Legal QuestionAttorneys Only: Answer this Question
Why in the Conrad Murray case, during the verdict Michael Jackson was still stated as alleged victim?and waht does alleged date means?
Verdict:
Superior court of California Los Angeles County. The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Conrad Robert Murray defendant. Case number SA-073164. Title of court and cause. We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. In violation of penal code section 192 subsection B alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009 as charged in count I of the information
Quote
When the verdict form was drafted, Jackson was still an "alleged" victim, because Dr. Murray was then presumed innocent. Obviously, that's no longer true./judge/ errrr suspicious// :?:
http://www.lawguru.com/legal-questions/-/conrad-murray-case-verdict-michael-119617113/a
Lieutenant David Smith showed reporters the basement where the singer's body was registered, weighed, photographed and fingerprinted.
He said the corpse was brought in through the same loading bay as all the other victims of trauma or those who have died of unnatural causes.
"This is great equaliser, if you will," he explained.
"I was here when it happened, so I watched the weighing in he was treated basically the same as everybody else, but a little more prestige was granted.
"If anything, just for his own privacy and protection. He was kept very much under lock and key."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GhKh9NXEdk&feature=player_embedded#!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GhKh9NXEdk&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
This is possibly the place where they left the "body" to take that photo
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3153/llegadacoro.png)
http://believerland.foroactivo.com/forum
Post by: Snoopy71 on December 02, 2011, 08:51:44 PM
I don't like the leg I'm standing on, but I have to at least mention it.
Photographic Evidence (yipes!) :?
If we accept that the "body" wrapped in the sheets of the autopsy photo is the same "body" that went to UCLA that day---it solves a myriad of loose ends (i.e what was transported from Carolwood, used in the helicopter and the van etc...etc...)
It is the most simplistic answer...and I don't think the purpose of this picture is arbitrary, it was given for a reason. suspicious//
So what is this?
A replica dummy or a real cadaver made to look like MJ.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2qamrec.jpg)
I brought up the weird dates when Souza did her resizing of the pic... no body responded to that post. We know it's fake; but is it a real pic of MJ manipulated for this hoax or the MJ corpse look a like?
« Reply #1294 on: October 12, 2011, 09:37:16 AM »
Souza:
Okay, this is a little awkward, but I played with Michael's body a little... in Photoshop that is. And I put some more volume to the arms and I put the black box a little higher, because that is also an illusion to make his body look off. They still did something with the legs as well, parts are covered with the sheets (weird, since when are the in sheets on an autopsy table? I guess that would get too messy). I also pointed out where the nipples are in my opinion, since there seems to be a 'fake nipple' on his right that is too high. Either for the illusion or a dark spot, but not a nipple I think. And I pointed out where his belly button should be. I also made the legs a little longer without stretching the rest of the picture. Keep in mind that I spent only 5 minutes and I'm not a Photoshop expert.
Trinity:
Thanks for setting this up in better proportion Souza. This looks like MJ to me. Here are my thoughts on this pic:
#1. I think the date thing was MADE to draw attention. YES the 6 is actually a 9 turned upside down... I see 3 9's = 999 in the photo
#2. With the 6 looking like an 8 we have MJ telling us he posed for this shot on 8-25-2009. Two mos AFTER 'DEATH'. (?) This is a Set up & photo shopped = ALIVE
( I still question this whole date thing)
#3. The "truth" has been "stretched" and here we are literally naval gazing!...This is PRE-Autopsy as there is no Y cut & the date of supposed autopsy is wrong; it should be the 26th right?
Exactly, this photograph is the ONLY piece of evidence that can be cross examined to detemine what went to UCLA that day.
We can go around and around in circles on what we THINK went into that ambulance that day (the picture is fake after all), but no HARD EVIDENCE to support anything.
I don't think this picture is arbitrary like I said. There was no reason to show it in court other than to connect the dots in terms of WHAT went to UCLA that day.
The white sheets and the date are a marker
We see it in the ambulance, we see it in the ER video, we see it in the helicopter and being transported in the van.
SO WHAT THE HECK IS THIS "BODY"?
Perhaps we aren't getting a response from TS because the evidence is right in front of us. :?
Post by: PureLove on December 02, 2011, 09:02:59 PM
I wish TS would come back :'(
Maybe if we all cry at the same time tonight?
(http://www.thebaglounge.com/images/smilies/neutral.gif)
With L.O.V.E. always.
Edited to add: Just realized this is my 777th post! C'mon TS....it's a special occasion ::P
/white flag/
Congrats to your 777th post BTC. :mrgreen: I bet you do not want to make another post. :lol:
Post by: bec on December 02, 2011, 10:30:39 PM
So Snoopy what are you trying to say with your post and this pic? Are you saying I can go back to Live MJ theory again? Maybe if I do it will piss off TS so bad he will come back to bitch slap me upside the head.
TS: "Girl?!? a'mattah with you. You simple or somthin? Damn."
bec: "I dunno. I'm asleep with my head stuck up where the Sunflowers don't grow. I like it here, no one calls me crazy."
Post by: Snoopy71 on December 02, 2011, 11:08:09 PM
@Snoopy: look at the color in him. That's Michael and he's so very much alive in that pic. Or that's an incredible dummy. Or rather I should say it's an altered pic of either. But that's not a corpse. Not a chance in hell is that a dead thing.
So Snoopy what are you trying to say with your post and this pic? Are you saying I can go back to Live MJ theory again? Maybe if I do it will piss off TS so bad he will come back to bitch slap me upside the head.
TS: "Girl?!? a'mattah with you. You simple or somthin? Damn."
bec: "I dunno. I'm asleep with my head stuck up where the Sunflowers don't grow. I like it here, no one calls me crazy."
Could be....could very well be (LIVE MJ that is, not TS smacking you in the head) :lol:
I'm just trying to look at this "body" issue from an angle we might have skipped over.
I think it's safe to say the "body" is either a replica dummy, a cadaver altered to look like MJ or LIVE MJ.
There was alot of effort put into the "body" in this picture. The details, presentation, lighting etc....when you compare it to the "death" picture, this one has MUCH MORE detailing. The bruising, coloration, etc...just for it to be a "fake picture" shown in court for dramatic effect?....I don't think so.
I think the fact that the body is wrapped in the white sheets is no accident--->I think we're suppose to connect the events ambo/helicopter/van etc...with this body and study it to solve 7c.
So maybe if we work the equation backwards...from the Coroner to the hospital to Carolwood, we might can figure out the answer, rather than continue going in circles.
The video Paula-C posted was about the coroners process and everything "they did" for Michael's "corpse".
It's a good start...
He said the corpse was brought in through the same loading bay as all the other victims of trauma or those who have died of unnatural causes.
HOW WOULD THEY KNOW IT'S UNNATURAL, THEY HADN'T TESTED OR EXAMINED THE BODY YET, IS THIS A SPECIAL PROCESS THAT MOST OF THE EMPLOYEES WOULDN'T HAVE ACCESS TO?
"I was here when it happened, so I watched the weighing in he was treated basically the same as everybody else, but a little more prestige was granted.
THE WEIGHT (136LBS) WAS A HUGE DISCREPANCY ISSUE
"If anything, just for his own privacy and protection. He was kept very much under lock and key".
ARE THEY REFERRING TO THE BODY, OR THE FAKE AR REPORT, PICTURES WHAT?
I don't think figuring out what was in the ambulance will be found studying the UCLA footage...I think everything we have related to the coroners is where we will find the answer on the what went to UCLA. :?
*EDIT* ALSO THE DATE.....TS said something about those seeing Michaels "dead body" testing their resolve with faith in the numerology will be okay....I'll find the exact quote and include it.
TS wrote:
As we go through and continue to debunk some of these long-cherished hoax theories (NONE of which have EVER been supported by yours truly): no doubt it will cause some to fear that MJ really died, and there is no hoax (and this could be the reason for some of the resistance displayed in 7a). It is true, as Jesus said, that those who build their faith upon the sand will have their house collapse when a storm comes through (see Matthew 7:24-27).
Nevertheless, those who have built their faith on solid theories (such as the numerology, with a $999 reward that nobody has even attempted to collect after more than a year) will not be troubled over the collapse of the long-cherished but faulty hoax theories. Quite the contrary, the true how’s of the hoax will become quite clear; and then it will be even more obvious that it’s a hoax (not murder, or accidental manslaughter, etc).
Post by: MichaelsAngel on December 02, 2011, 11:33:36 PM
@Snoopy: look at the color in him. That's Michael and he's so very much alive in that pic. Or that's an incredible dummy. Or rather I should say it's an altered pic of either. But that's not a corpse. Not a chance in hell is that a dead thing.
So Snoopy what are you trying to say with your post and this pic? Are you saying I can go back to Live MJ theory again? Maybe if I do it will piss off TS so bad he will come back to bitch slap me upside the head.
TS: "Girl?!? a'mattah with you. You simple or somthin? Damn."
bec: "I dunno. I'm asleep with my head stuck up where the Sunflowers don't grow. I like it here, no one calls me crazy."
lolol/
Post by: BeTheChange on December 02, 2011, 11:42:05 PM
I'm not going anywhere...so my post count will greatly increase by the time this is through lol.
I'm sticking like glue....for Mike.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 03, 2011, 12:31:59 AM
So score one more notch in LiveMJ's theory Pro-column. Because we have a delightful snapshot of LiveMJ laying on sheets dated 8/25/09, Van Video day.
Sheets-->Stretcher-->Ambulance @Carrolwood-->UCLA-->Helicopter-->Coroner Van-->MJ jumps out-->Van Video posted online 8/25/09--date on "Autopsy" pic-->sheets from Helicopter body-->sheets balled up on UCLA gurney pic-->vague white blob on stretcher being loaded @Carrolwood.
I'm really not retarded, I promise. That's just the pattern and process of events and scenes documenting the travels of one mysteriously sheeted body starting on 6/25/09. If you think this pic is the key (which is a fine theory btw I'm not trying to discredit it), then you can go all the way to the end of the process and deduce that Live MJ (or that which represents he) jumps out of the back of the coroner van means that LiveMJ was on the stretcher going into the ambulance @Carrolwood.
If MJ died that's exactly how it happened, right? Well up until the Van Video part it is of course.
To make it a hoax you change one thing: the dead part (and then Van Video becomes the natural end). You add people in on it but again, key people in key places, as TS said.
TS went through some motions of discrediting the van video and it's almost certainly true that it was filmed at another time. But that doesn't prove it isn't MJ. And it also doesn't prove it wasn't an MJ authorized "leak". Remember from the live feed, the black dressed guy darts in the garage after the van. He's playing a part, I'm certain. His role is to set the scene for the later and separately filmed Van Video. Or perhaps earlier filmed...(?) it doesn't matter. The black clothed man's cameo appearance on the live feed is entirely too coincidental to be believed is just that. If he is simple paparazzi where is his footage? He was close enough to film something, the van driving in the garage, pulling away, something. He could have ran to follow it inside as well. He could have filmed something to show for the biggest celebrity death event of the decade, perhaps since Elvis... as it is, none of his footage has surfaced. That tells me he had a specific purpose and it wasn't filming. It was to be filmed.
So if it wasn't LiveMJ throughout, at least that is what it is supposed to LOOK like. That's what the visual facts all support; from the stretcher .gif to the body moving in the helicopter, to the Van Video. Someone tried very hard to develop this little side story to the "official story", something that if you read between the lines you could connect the dots and discover the hoax. Why is this being ignored? Too obvious? Well considering my premise (movie), I disagree.
The common hurdle with any [what or who was on the stretcher?] theory is this: how you gonna make it work at UCLA? I dunno. How you gonna make it work @Coroner's? Everyone just accepts that part is, what? Worked out somehow? What's the difference with UCLA? They let Jermaine make the death announcement for goodness sake. UCLA said nothing at all. UCLA PR dept kept referring only to JJ's statement and declined to say ANYTHING regarding the matter. They wouldn't even confirm that MJ was there. If two of their esteemed doctors worked on "MJ" as reported, why did they not even admit he was there?
All the visual information points to it being MJ himself on that stretcher and that means either he's dead or LiveMJ theory is right. I know he's not dead so it's LiveMJ theory for me. All of this is only in my opinion of course, and after 11/29-11/30 I'm reflecting on my judgement anyway so keep that in mind.
Post by: bec on December 03, 2011, 12:45:47 AM
Post by: Andrea on December 03, 2011, 01:09:52 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 03, 2011, 01:15:34 AM
Post by: Suzy7 on December 03, 2011, 06:29:04 AM
Bec, I think that "your eyes don't lie, the media does" tweet can be interpreted many ways, for example: Our eyes see something is wrong with his death, even though the media is telling us the alleged 'truth' vs. Our eyes are seeing MJ alive in front of us possibly this whole time, even though the media is saying he's dead. If, that is the way you interpreted the tweet.
I personally saw Level 7 as being finished, just not wrapped up by TS.
Level 7a- The ambulance arrived at Carolwood and went to UCLA in real time on June 25, 2009.
Level 7b- A person did in fact die, whether on June 25, or a day or two previous. Either way a corpse was used for transport-could be a person on life support or again, died previously. Both are applicable.
Level 7c- The court is real for a sting, but a hoax to prevent entrapment and possibly entertainment purposes for hoaxers (I mean a pumpkin is entertaining ;)). Paula posted a great blog that could indeed show who in the medical industry the sting is against. One of the doctors possibly being Klein, and Murray acting just as he is supposed to in order to help MJ as the "fall guy". A sting on the judicial system/media/fans is bound to happen as a result of this hoax/court, regardless of whether or not those are the intended sting target(s).
And ofcourse, you can add the why's to 7c being the Illuminati (sting/exposé on them etc.).
Pretty simple to me, unless ofcourse I'm wrong.
Post by: bec on December 03, 2011, 10:40:10 AM
Why are we working backwards folks?
Bec, I think that "your eyes don't lie, the media does" tweet can be interpreted many ways, for example: Our eyes see something is wrong with his death, even though the media is telling us the alleged 'truth' vs. Our eyes are seeing MJ alive in front of us possibly this whole time, even though the media is saying he's dead. If, that is the way you interpreted the tweet.
I personally saw Level 7 as being finished, just not wrapped up by TS.
Level 7a- The ambulance arrived at Carolwood and went to UCLA in real time on June 25, 2009.
Level 7b- A person did in fact die, whether on June 25, or a day or two previous. Either way a corpse was used for transport-could be a person on life support or again, died previously. Both are applicable.
Level 7c- The court is real for a sting, but a hoax to prevent entrapment and possibly entertainment purposes for hoaxers (I mean a pumpkin is entertaining ;)). Paula posted a great blog that could indeed show who in the medical industry the sting is against. One of the doctors possibly being Klein, and Murray acting just as he is supposed to in order to help MJ as the "fall guy". A sting on the judicial system/media/fans is bound to happen as a result of this hoax/court, regardless of whether or not those are the intended sting target(s).
And ofcourse, you can add the why's to 7c being the Illuminati (sting/exposé on them etc.).
Pretty simple to me, unless ofcourse I'm wrong.
How and why does entertainment fit in with any of that? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying it doesn't make much sense to me for all that serious stuff... and then a random Jack-o-lantern.
Post by: paula-c on December 03, 2011, 10:44:07 AM
Post by: Suzy7 on December 03, 2011, 01:03:08 PM
However, the court was serious. I'm not saying the Jack-O-lantern was the ONLY aspect of the *entire* hoax that is entertainment, no, only what went on in court. There was a sting that took place in my opinion and the pumpkin, misspellings etc., were there to prevent entrapment when MJ returns whilst also giving US a source of entertainment as we were the only ones aware of these things because of the hoax.
So, the court was sting (real) and hoax. My post was fulfilling the outline; 7a, 7b and 7c, that's it.
We can either move forward or stand in the same place. I'm not saying to believe what I say, but why is everyone upset when TS doesn't post anything, but when he does no one takes what he says as being valid info to guide us all in the right direction?
Yes be cautious of information presented to you regardless of the source, but that's why we are all here; to decipher between what is true and what is not. I think we can trust TS was pointing us in the right direction, no? Thusly, the Live MJ theory is one of those things I file under not applicable, given all of what we know so far. Like I said I could be very wrong, but...
Post by: PureLove on December 03, 2011, 02:48:53 PM
Bec, you do know that my post was pertaining to only what was asked of us and NOT every other aspect of the hoax; like entertainment. I've said a million times, this hoax is for many reasons i.e., movie, ARG, Illluminati/NWO/EOW wake up call etc.
However, the court was serious. I'm not saying the Jack-O-lantern was the ONLY aspect of the *entire* hoax that is entertainment, no, only what went on in court. There was a sting that took place in my opinion and the pumpkin, misspellings etc., were there to prevent entrapment when MJ returns whilst also giving US a source of entertainment as we were the only ones aware of these things because of the hoax.
So, the court was sting (real) and hoax. My post was fulfilling the outline; 7a, 7b and 7c, that's it.
We can either move forward or stand in the same place. I'm not saying to believe what I say, but why is everyone upset when TS doesn't post anything, but when he does no one takes what he says as being valid info to guide us all in the right direction?
Yes be cautious of information presented to you regardless of the source, but that's why we are all here; to decipher between what is true and what is not. I think we can trust TS was pointing us in the right direction, no? Thusly, the Live MJ theory is one of those things I file under not applicable, given all of what we know so far. Like I said I could be very wrong, but...
If I had better english, this would be what I was going to write. Perfectly said Suzy and very well explained. /bravo/
Post by: ~Souza~ on December 03, 2011, 05:52:32 PM
Post by: paula-c on December 03, 2011, 06:21:51 PM
I haven't seen level 7 wrapped up at all. Something was on the stretcher, but why a corpse? I still don't see why it would be a corpse. So for me level 7 has not been finished yet.
A dummy for purposes of illusion does for the purposes of deceive a doctor, then the report of the forensic was something that was written following a indent , there was no autopsy.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 03, 2011, 07:15:10 PM
And thanks Purelove, your english is actually quite perfect ;).
Post by: bec on December 03, 2011, 09:42:02 PM
Post by: Suzy7 on December 05, 2011, 05:36:25 AM
That speculation being that MJ went to the airport way before etc.
What you also call "visual information" is what exactly? We saw on June 25 what appeared to be a huge distraction and things that made us question his death, but nothing that said "MJ is alive in front of us!".
We do afterall, need a foundation to build off of and the only supporting evidence of the MJ Live theory was debunked (MJ sitting up, MJ was there because he was the star etc.). TS asked for evidence or supporting strong points to show MJ WAS there that day taken in the ambulance. So far I haven't seen or heard evidence to support it but quite the contrary. Along with that theory, the 'nothing, dummy and live double' theories have been debunked with logical backing evidence too. Until any theory can be supported with evidence it should be considered debunked. Just like if someone doesn't like a theory, they should state reasons that hold weight in a court of law versus mere opinions. This is the principle that we were told to use because it works, and people still don't utilize it enough.
I don't want my opinion as to what I feel happened that day to thwart your investigations, so if that's what you believe than by all means keep on posting your theories. You are not a "roadblock", but I considered us going backwards for the simple reason that the Live MJ theory had no supporting evidence thus, it was debunked. Also, the coroner van and everything else was being brought up again that was not asked of us to figure out.
The court proceeding was real and serious because it involved a sting operation to catch the real criminals, which is what a sting is for. And in this case, the serious matter of using a corpse makes sense for many reasons.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 05, 2011, 08:53:44 AM
I don't want my opinion as to what I feel happened that day to thwart your investigations, so if that's what you believe than by all means keep on posting your theories. You are not a "roadblock", but I considered us going backwards for the simple reason that the Live MJ theory had no supporting evidence thus, it was debunked. Also, the coroner van and everything else was being brought up again that was not asked of us to figure out.
@ bec... just remeber what you proved when you set out to prove that O2 MJ was an imposter.... (yes i have read all the old threads ;) )
dont stop. you might be looking at the very thing others are overlooking.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on December 05, 2011, 10:54:52 AM
Post by: Snoopy71 on December 05, 2011, 11:29:32 AM
Maybe we should try to focus on whether or not all of the paramedics are 'in on it' or not (particularly Blount). I think that was one of the last things TS asked us to do. I don't have time to find his post about it right now because I have a final exam in a few hours errrr but if someone could find it and quote it here I would appreciate it.
The question is WHY would Blount talk to a fan expressing "doubts".
He was the one who "recognized" Michael at Carolwood, yet he contradicts himself by saying "that wasn't Michael" on the stretcher. :shock:
I smell a "smokescreen"... suspicious//
If you want to spread gossip fast, who do you tell?...."the town cryer" (in this case a "faithful fan")
You pair together the "sitting up on the stretcher" video clip, Blounts expressed "doubts", the "mystery man" exiting the ambulance last, and you have the solid foundation of a "conspiracy".
The 911 call stated "50 year old man"....until they arrived at UCLA it was not confirmed it was Michael (no one saw who came out of the house), Who or What went into UCLA....it was ASSUMED to be Michael.
Blount "spilled the beans" to this fan of "who" it was....or did he? :?
Blount 100% in....IMO bounce/
Post by: MsTrinity333 on December 05, 2011, 11:49:05 AM
Maybe we should try to focus on whether or not all of the paramedics are 'in on it' or not (particularly Blount). I think that was one of the last things TS asked us to do. I don't have time to find his post about it right now because I have a final exam in a few hours errrr but if someone could find it and quote it here I would appreciate it.
The question is WHY would Blount talk to a fan expressing "doubts".
He was the one who "recognized" Michael at Carolwood, yet he contradicts himself by saying "that wasn't Michael" on the stretcher. :shock:
I smell a "smokescreen"... suspicious//
If you want to spread gossip fast, who do you tell?...."the town cryer" (in this case a "faithful fan")
You pair together the "sitting up on the stretcher" video clip, Blounts expressed "doubts", the "mystery man" exiting the ambulance last, and you have the solid foundation of a "conspiracy".
The 911 call stated "50 year old man"....until they arrived at UCLA it was not confirmed it was Michael (no one saw who came out of the house), Who or What went into UCLA....it was ASSUMED to be Michael.
Blount "spilled the beans" to this fan of "who" it was....or did he? :?
Blount 100% in....IMO bounce/
Agreed. He's in; so is the Coroner... again the date was 09-09-09 of the autopsy & that weird van vid. AND the three 9's in THIS WEIRD PHOTO we've been discussing again with the messed up date; NO COINCIDENCE. So WHY is that date messed up? What is MJ trying to tell us? It's got to be something important because of the 3 9's.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 05, 2011, 12:37:01 PM
Post by: Heartsong on December 05, 2011, 08:13:54 PM
I am hoping that those who watch them will feel more grounded and guided in their quest for answers, as I for one often feel overwhelmed by the amount of information and clues we have to deal with on a daily basis. I think we will only progress by continuing to use logic and reasoning combined with a great deal of critical thinking.
These videos describe the process used to detect hokum and the pitfalls we as humans fall into when we succumb to emotional wishful thinking.
Please do not think that I am in anyway implying that by believing Michael is alive I am accusing people of being "wishful thinkers". I am not, as I believe the evidence to date points 100% to Michael living, and I think the "wishful thinking" tag could as easily be applied to those that believe he is passed.
I only ask that we go back with the information we have abundantly available to us now and apply further critical thinking methodology to it, from the persons who provide it, to it's content.
I must also do this bow/ to every single person here. I feel deeply honoured to be a part of this journey.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUB4j0n2UDU[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9BMyaftZ1A&feature=related[/youtube]
I have also made a montage of the quotes most pertinent to me from TS, with help from Bec (my bolding):
Quote
TS: Could you please quote or highlight where I said that nothing went to UCLA? I don't think I ever said that, if so it was a typo--or you are misunderstanding something.
Quote
TS:The false theories that I was referring to were one such as these: multiple ambulances, green screen everything in the ambulance videos, the two videos were taken on different days, MJ sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, jumping out of the coroner van, etc.
The supposed differences in these videos are no better than the supposed differences in the ambulance videos. They are angle and lighting, etc. For example the green door: some thought that one video the door was dull, and therefore old paint (at the LA coroner's garage); but the other video was a shiny green door, indicating a new paint job (RTL trying to copy the LA coroner garage). The reality is merely a different angle, one angle the light is reflecting off of the door, and the other angle it is not reflecting.
Also, very early after that video came out, it was shown that the license plate had the wrong font--did not match the real LA coroner van. I really don't plan to spend much time on this, but again thought I would reply since it keeps popping up. Maybe someone in the LA area can take a tour of the coroner's facility, and see the differences and report it back here. But it is not MJ, and not LA coroner's garage; if so, I am Tom Sneddon!
Quote
Quote from: bec on November 29, 2011, 04:30:28 PM@TS,
if MJ was concerned about the Illuminati making a hit on him, we can rule out the death hoax completely for the exact reason you stated, once he is "dead" to the world, the Illuminati could make a hit on him with 100% assurance that NO ONE would be suspicious. He's already "dead", so he could be effectively removed in very clean, very organized, orderly fashion. MJ would know this, being the genius he is, and would have stayed SOLIDLY in the public eye FOREVER to make sure it didn't happen. To drop out of sight would be very dangerous.
TS:
You might have a good point here, IF the ONLY reason for the hoax was his own safety. But it is not; there are several very important reasons. So the question is which is safer: going to the hospital, or getting out of town?
Quote
TS:.... I’m going to be giving further evidence about one of the reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital
There was a real enemy, with a real intent to kill the person who “died”; and the plan of the illusionist included not only saving the life of the potential victim, but also exposing the criminal.
Quote
TS: Remember this statement, which I made at the beginning of this thread: “Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax.I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together”
Quote
TS: It is important that we understand 7a correctly, because it’s a solid foundation upon which we can build to find the answer for the main question in 7b (what went to the hospital in the ambulance?). For example, since the video events really happened on 6-25-09, we need to start thinking about all the people who were already at the residence (before any LAFD arrived)—were they ALL in on it? If so, why? And if not, what would keep them from finding out (and spilling the beans)?
Quote
TS: MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
Does this mean MJ had to change his plan?
Quote
TS: Well, looks like the "nothing went to UCLA" can be thrown in the trash bin. There is clearly something/someone on the stretcher. Yes, that is one strong point against the nothing theory. And we also have the testimony of Sharon Sidney, so that is two strong points. A third strong point is the nothing theory would require ALL of the paramedics in on the hoax (which nobody has offered even ONE strong point, that I know of, much less two or three). And it would also require ALL of the UCLA staff who worked the situation, to be in on it. Again, why have so many in on it?
Quote
TS: Also, I am not saying that MJ found out that they were planning to get him that day. Rather, I'm saying he knew that there was a general threat out there (and had been there for a long time); and IF someone in the hoax leaked his plans, it would be an unnecessary risk to go to the hospital (and also escape from the hospital, with a lot of people around--not all of whom you can trust).Yes, there was also risk while getting away in a plane, and afterwards; but much less people needed to know about the specifics of the getaway, than the people in on the hoax. You can't eliminate all risks, but you can minimize them.
Quote
TS: The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
Quote
TS: EXACTLY! It is coming together now, as I said it would. As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.
Quote
TS: Second, there are several strong points why MJ did not go to UCLA at all on 6-25-09 (which I have already started discussing at the beginning of 7b, and will be going into much more detail shortly). Obviously, if MJ was not on that stretcher going into UCLA, then MJ did not sit up while riding on the stretcher.I will also be debunking the living double theory soon, which means that no living double sat up, either.
Quote
TS: Sorry if I seemed ruffled. I am not angry at anyone, but it is a little frustrating when the grand solution to every problem is merely "well, they are in on it".
Quote
TS: There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo).
We are first and foremost an investigators site. With or without TS, lets keep up the good work people! michael-jackson/
L.O.V.E to all
Post by: bec on December 05, 2011, 08:38:09 PM
Excellent quote selection, Heartsong.
Post by: Andrea on December 05, 2011, 10:19:15 PM
I've been thinking more about the Live MJ theory, the biggest objection seems to be risk/safety.
Posing a couple relevant questions here - was there more or less risk appearing on Larry King as Dave Dave? Michael showing up at his own Memorial and funeral as hatman? And this latest hatman appearance on X Factor?
While Michael was in the ambulance en route to UCLA, how many people were watching?
And yet how many people watched the Memorial, have seen the funeral footage, saw DD on LK and watched the latest X Factor?
There seems to be a theme of hiding in plain sight.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 05, 2011, 10:29:42 PM
This is why I am still stuck on the LiveMJ theory. TS is full of (seemingly on the surface) double talk. You have to read what he says very carefully.
Excellent quote selection, Heartsong.
Didn't TS suggest you to take his words at face value? Or something like that?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 05, 2011, 10:33:00 PM
This is the only post of TS that could suggest a words game. Could be interpreted both ways.
Post by: bec on December 05, 2011, 11:19:18 PM
QuoteAnd this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
You make comments like this TS... and it makes me want to read between the lines. It is a movie, and it is a sting on the fans and the media... isn't it?
If you will accept a straight answer: yes, but not ONLY these things! And if you don't accept a straight answer, then what else can I say? Well, maybe 7c will also make it clearer.
TS went on and on and on about how some of us are asleep and not paying attention and how he's been talking about the Illuminati and the NWO and the conspiracy to commit murder for many months and etc etc... and buried in that long rant is this quote I plucked out and confronted him with. See the above convo.
TS has NEVER said it was a fan sting. The Fan sting was a hypothesis I used to link Back's rants on MJJC in 2009 to the "fake" lyrics controversy fallout in 2010.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 05, 2011, 11:26:33 PM
QuoteAnd this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
You make comments like this TS... and it makes me want to read between the lines. It is a movie, and it is a sting on the fans and the media... isn't it?
If you will accept a straight answer: yes, but not ONLY these things! And if you don't accept a straight answer, then what else can I say? Well, maybe 7c will also make it clearer.
TS went on and on and on about how some of us are asleep and not paying attention and how he's been talking about the Illuminati and the NWO and the conspiracy to commit murder for many months and etc etc... and buried in that long rant is this quote I plucked out and confronted him with. See the above convo.
TS has NEVER said it was a fan sting. The Fan sting was a hypothesis I used to link Back's rants on MJJC in 2009 to the "fake" lyrics controversy fallout in 2010.
outing the conspiracy the main reason behind DH. in the meantime, by products include, sting, movie, revealing juducual system, medical system, media lies, etc etc...
Post by: bec on December 05, 2011, 11:40:28 PM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 05, 2011, 11:43:54 PM
As per wiki: An enigma is a type of riddle generally expressed in radical or allegorical language that requires ingenuity and careful thought for its solution.
suits him to a T !! respect/
Post by: MJonmind on December 06, 2011, 02:02:23 AM
Speaking of enigmatic answers.
Quote
Quote from: chappie on November 28, 2011, 01:22:08 AM (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg375191#msg375191)
Quote from: TS_comments on November 27, 2011, 09:55:43 PM (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg375155#msg375155)
So did the Illuminati outthink him? Or did he outthink them, AND FLY OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOURS BEFORE THE KICKOFF TIME? Just in case the answer to that question is not self-evident, Jermaine made it crystal clear in his “airport” slip/clue. But I’ll save the details on that for another post.
Why ask the question if you gave the answer.....
A thought question, rhetorical question.
Quote from: chappie on November 28, 2011, 01:22:08 AM (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg375191#msg375191)I have a question for you TS....after all this time...
After all you are starting to give some answers so why not this one....
Is it correct that Dave Dave on LK was not the real Dave Dave....
But a guy that was supposed to be in a coffin at that time?
You dont have to send a making of vid or pic....
Just a simple YES or No would do it after 2 years....
I haven't touched this because I don't want people to accept what I say merely because I say it. I would have to get into a long debate over the evidence, which I do not think is worth the time.
I do agree, however, that it does not look like the real Dave Dave on LKL. Nevertheless, it could've been an MJ double. And I don't want to spend the time arguing over whether it was a double or the real MJ.
Reminds me of an interview when MJ was much younger, the question was about dealing with the crush of fans, paps and invasions into his privacy. His response seemed loaded with secrets, "Oh, I've learned how to handle that." Like he developed a plan to be fully in control at all times. He's learned how to deal with situations and answer questions with riddles, mystery and giving out drops of precious info at a time (making each drop worth a fortune).
I do think that his several reasons to support MJ going to the airport are weak. There seems as much risk being knocked off in-flight or distant hiding places--since someone could have leaked that sensitive info. He said the info that MJ had gone to the airport and Jermaine's airport slip-up were known early on, and I think that could easily have been for a tactic to throw would-be assassins off his trail, who would then be scouting out the airport leads, places he could be hiding around the world. Meanwhile he could be hiding in plain sight somewhat safer, close to home and kids. There is also huge safety in TS insisting that he went to the airport, since if we are discussing it here, there could be enemies also reading this as well.
The problem I see with not taking TS's answer at face value, is it means there is no bedrock truth for understanding the hows and whys of the hoax.
Bec, if you did maneuver him into saying it was a sting on the fans, I would be surprised. It seems he's extremely careful about covering his tracks to make sure he doesn't accidentally say too much.
mj_bad/
I can't figure out if TS is saying DD is MJ or not. I keep re-reading it but maybe someone else can read which way he's leading us to. :? bangbang
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 06, 2011, 03:48:17 AM
Post by: MJonmind on December 06, 2011, 05:03:00 AM
Earlier at Carolwood, the guy that looks like MJ in the yard also has his hair in a pony. Could this also be MJ, who then left in another vehicle from a different Carolwood exit, beating the slow ambulance to the hospital? That way MJ could be there with the corpse, directing up till the ambulance left? TS made a note of the staff needing to be gone before the stretcher was brought downstairs in the house. Andrea noted how few people were at the Emergency bay, and we’ve also noted that it seems impossible for all those guys wheeling in the stretcher to have come from that ambulance. Could some have been dropped off just before (including MJ)? LaToya emphasizes illusions, what the left hand is doing and the right. TS has really tried to get us to focus on who/what was in that ambulance, and if there were 2 days or 2 ambulances.
Thoughts?
Post by: pepper on December 06, 2011, 09:33:32 AM
Could some have been dropped off just before (including MJ)?
Keeping in mind that this video was edited so that what actually happens "first" is in the middle of this video...
at 1:45 you will see a pony-tailed man in an all dark blue uniform walk past firetruck 71. A small white truck passes this man, and then the man continues to walk into the Carolwood driveway area towards the open gates (where you can see a glimpse of the back of the ambulance inside the gates) then at 1:53 the Star Tours van drives into the picture and blocks our view of the gates.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU
In this next video, around :48, is this the same pony-tailed man we see in Ben's "through the gate" video?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44
Was this pony-tailed man at UCLA?
Post by: bec on December 06, 2011, 10:53:18 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 06, 2011, 11:25:19 AM
Could some have been dropped off just before (including MJ)?
Keeping in mind that this video was edited so that what actually happens "first" is in the middle of this video...
at 1:45 you will see a pony-tailed man in an all dark blue uniform walk past firetruck 71. A small white truck passes this man, and then the man continues to walk into the Carolwood driveway area towards the open gates (where you can see a glimpse of the back of the ambulance inside the gates) then at 1:53 the Star Tours van drives into the picture and blocks our view of the gates.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU
In this next video, around :48, is this the same pony-tailed man we see in Ben's "through the gate" video?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44
Was this pony-tailed man at UCLA?
To me yes.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 06, 2011, 11:47:22 AM
Post by: Sarahli on December 06, 2011, 03:42:59 PM
I know it's not investigative but I wanted to post this here. TS (or Front geek/) is the dove in this picture, our dear messenger, bringing light through the veils.
All the pieces of the puzzle will come together in the end family. Peace to all of you.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 06, 2011, 05:02:09 PM
maybe tomorrow morning I find a post from TS here bounce/ bounce/ bounce/
Or from Michael :shock: How cool would that be bounce/
Post by: Heartsong on December 06, 2011, 06:04:53 PM
I don't think that the reasons for WHY or HOW Michael appears to be MIA will help us figure out WHAT happened. For instance, claims of a fan sting simply confuses us and does nothing to help us progress (red herring). This is a puzzle piece I would prefer to put to the side for the time being. The same goes for the various disguises (hatman, DD) and fuzzy videos, even though I realise this would indeed be an extremely convenient shortcut! It would at least prove MJ is alive.
Sticking to principles of critical thinking we cannot use the evidence to support the premise (premises being MJ planned the hoax years ago, MJ died of accidental propofol, MJ was murdered, MJ escaped murder attempt but had to stage his death) . We must allow the evidence to lead us to the premise (conclusion) and we must consider ALL the evidence not just what supports our own particular theory. As an analogy, a crime scene investigator cannot go onto a scene with the premise that a murder took place and then gather evidence which supports his stance. He must gather ALL the evidence before reaching a conclusion and he must be prepared to vary his opinion according to the evidence.
In this regard we have a tough task, as much of the evidence we are using has been proven to be questionable or deliberately placed to mislead, but not all of it, not all of it by a long shot.
So, lets go back, right to the beginning, right to the O2 announcements and bring forward what we know, what we have debunked and what has been neither confirmed nor unconfirmed (grey areas). No conjecture or interpretation, just what we saw and heard. We need to create a timeline and include all the characters in place at each particular moment. We need to check and cross check the alibis of people, the testimonies of the bodyguards because if Michael escaped at Carolwood someone had to take him. We need to find alibis for Randy, Kenny, Arnold, Miko, Lou F, Frank D, Jermaine and any staff not previously spotlighted. It may be more important to know who WASN'T there than who was. We know so much now and I think by using a little hindsight and fresh eyes the answers we are searching for are right in front of us.
So to start the timeline:
March 5th '09: Michael went to London to announce his 10 "This Is It" concerts at the O2 Arena for July. He was 90 minutes late. Conjecture we need to add later- was it really Michael, why was he late, why did he go all the way to London to make the announcement (an announcement that took all of 2 minutes), why did he not complete his sentence "this is really it, because, uhmmmmm..."?
March 8-11th '09: This Is It tickets go on presale. 350,000 are snapped up. 10 concerts sold out.
March 12th '09: Concert dates are increased to 50.
March 13th '09: Further tickets go on sale.
There is so much more we can add later, but we need to have an outline before we can add the details and there will be pages of details. What stands out for me, even here, is the short timespan between the presale and the increase in dates (hopefully my dates are correct). Was Michael even consulted?
If we continue this way much will stand out and I think it is the only methodical method we can use to reach any kind of determination. It will also serve to have all the solid information in one place where we can help each other rather than having it scattered around like chicken feed to be easily overlooked.
Much L.O.V.E as always
Post by: paula-c on December 07, 2011, 05:22:51 PM
Quote
It was a really sunny day in LA and we were riding to Malibu Beach when our friend called and told us Michael Jackson died 5 minutes ago! We happened to be right next to UCLA medical center where he was taken right after his cardiac arrest. We snuck into the UCLA Medical Center building. We went in the back door, up the elevator, back down, and out the front door, where the UCLA Medical staff, fire men, and security guards were creating a decoy scene of his body being taken away to distract the media. We walked through the chaos and saw two choppers leave and realized that they may have taken him out the back door. We were totally shocked and saddened to loose not one but two legends of our generation in the same day! We left and went to Malibu, listening to Michael Jackson songs on every radio station the whole way, celebrating Michael and Farrah’s lives and appreciating ours!
MJHDI.com
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 08, 2011, 01:36:25 AM
Paula - that proves there was a decoy scene to distract the media, but I don't really understand how it was: they wanted to make it appear that the body was taken away by the front door at UCLA, while in fact it was in the chopper?
I don't know who wrote what you quoted but they had a good spirit of observation if they noticed there was a decoy going on in order to distract the media and also they notice who arranged the decoy - UCLA Medical staff, fire men, and security guards. This means some of those people saw the body? And what was used for the decoy, pillows under a sheet?
Post by: ForstAMoon on December 08, 2011, 03:56:16 AM
We (the public) saw only what we were supposed to see, what we were given to see.
Scene 1 - ambulance at home
Scene 2 - ambulance at UCLA
Scene 3 - Jermaine saying MJ was dead
Scene 4 - body transferred by helicopter
Scene 5 - funeral
There are not many films or even photos available from these scenes, what in light of MJ scale and media firepower and in the era of mobile phones is pretty puzzling.
For example: the film with the helicopter view of body being transferred (the "moving" body) - how come this film happened? Who gave a tip to the filming crew? Since all was kept secret and there is no one from UCLA or any other public service engaged ever speaking about this day - how did they know, when and how the body was to be transferred? Who told them? Was the filming helicopter hanging around just in case?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 08, 2011, 06:24:46 AM
Quote
For example: the film with the helicopter view of body being transferred (the "moving" body) - how come this film happened? Who gave a tip to the filming crew? Since all was kept secret and there is no one from UCLA or any other public service engaged ever speaking about this day - how did they know, when and how the body was to be transferred? Who told them? Was the filming helicopter hanging around just in case?
This is a good question but we don't know the answer. What channels aired it live?
Post by: paula-c on December 08, 2011, 08:34:04 AM
@heartsong I agree with the methodical approach but the problem is we don't have access to all information, we have to work with what we have and it is not enough. At least it doesn't seem to be enough.
Paula - that proves there was a decoy scene to distract the media, but I don't really understand how it was: they wanted to make it appear that the body was taken away by the front door at UCLA, while in fact it was in the chopper?
I don't know who wrote what you quoted but they had a good spirit of observation if they noticed there was a decoy going on in order to distract the media and also they notice who arranged the decoy - UCLA Medical staff, fire men, and security guards. This means some of those people saw the body? And what was used for the decoy, pillows under a sheet?
In 2009 it was said to be woman known in the USA, i do not know if model or an actress, say that Playboy model ... his name is Heather Chadwell and pop artist Sham Ibrahim and were in the UCLA this June 25.
I do believe that something" to get to the UCLA this June 25, and those who do know of this were those that had been in contact with the "body" one or two paramedics, the doctor at the hospital and the medical examiner
Post by: VeryLittleSusie on December 08, 2011, 08:36:25 AM
(...)
So, lets go back, right to the beginning, right to the O2 announcements and bring forward what we know, what we have debunked and what has been neither confirmed nor unconfirmed (grey areas). No conjecture or interpretation, just what we saw and heard. We need to create a timeline and include all the characters in place at each particular moment. (...)
Maybe this would help:
http://hoaxtimeline.wordpress.com/page/2/
www.hoaxtimeline.wordpress.com
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 08, 2011, 08:57:35 AM
Quote
I do believe that something" to get to the UCLA this June 25, and those who do know of this were those that had been in contact with the "body" one or two paramedics, the doctor at the hospital and the medical examiner
I agree. The difficult part is to define that "something".
Post by: Heartsong on December 08, 2011, 10:36:37 PM
paula-c this is the type of information that we can slot in to the suitable places in the timeline. There will be much info at each point with much of it contradicting other info we already have, unfortunately. I'm not saying this info contradicts, it may just add to what we already know. But to confirm this particular info we do have CC / media footage taken at the front door (I think). I don't recall attention ever being brought to the front door of UCLA. Still, it fits with the often heard statements of Michael's pap evasion techniques, namely "we'll pretend to go this way but we'll really go that way..." The main point is that we need to consider ALL the information.
gina, I hear your frustration. Believe me I am too. But please, look at what we DO have not at what we don't. I think we have much, much more than we realise and I think the answers we seek are right in front of us. Think wheat and chaff not needle and haystack...
Post by: bec on December 08, 2011, 10:43:17 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 09, 2011, 12:33:07 AM
Post by: Heartsong on December 09, 2011, 01:02:56 AM
If you say there's no way we can learn what happened without Michael, then why TS opened this thread??
I think bec is saying it will be difficult due to the illusion factor, not that we can't figure it out. We already know that if clues make us look left we should really look right. That is why the evidence needs to be matched up, as every single piece seems to vary in one way or another .
That is your blog Susie?! I knew we had stuff here we were overlooking. Such great work!
So... what's with the report on August 27 2009 about the search warrant reults- we now know that is outright rubbish...
And this...August 30, 2009 – News of the World report: "Jackson RESET THE MACHINE CONTROLLING THE DRIP, increasing the dosage which led to the heart attack that killed him." The defense claimed at trial there was no infusion pump even though prosecution eventually proved there must have been. So, does this mean someone let on to the media way back in 2009?
See, we can match previous stuff up to what we now know and therein lays da troot!
L.O.V.E. and keep the faith
...
Post by: bec on December 09, 2011, 01:19:16 AM
If you say there's no way we can learn what happened without Michael, then why TS opened this thread??
I don't know. I don't know why he did any of the levels. There must be some purpose I am not understanding right now.
Post by: curls on December 09, 2011, 01:51:46 AM
If you say there's no way we can learn what happened without Michael, then why TS opened this thread??
I don't know. I don't know why he did any of the levels. There must be some purpose I am not understanding right now.
To train our brains?
To keep us here and occupied?
To 'test' us?
To prove to himself that the hoax can't be proved (with what has been presented to the world), and therefore the great illusion was totally successful?
Post by: _Anna_ on December 09, 2011, 01:59:10 AM
If you say there's no way we can learn what happened without Michael, then why TS opened this thread??
I don't know. I don't know why he did any of the levels. There must be some purpose I am not understanding right now.
This is what I think too, but since too long already. Without Michael nothing can be explained. Without having Michael back here with us, I'll never understand what happened. I can only suppose. Nothing is clear
Post by: applehead250609 on December 09, 2011, 02:02:00 AM
If you say there's no way we can learn what happened without Michael, then why TS opened this thread??
I don't know. I don't know why he did any of the levels. There must be some purpose I am not understanding right now.
To train our brains?
To keep us here and occupied?
To 'test' us?
To prove to himself that the hoax can't be proved (with what has been presented to the world), and therefore the great illusion was totally successful?
Good point Curls albino/ !!! To keep us occupied with what the RIGHT HAND ,meantime the LEFT HAND did everything.The Illusion was perfect and we still don't know a DAM THING,lol lolol/ .We are BACK from where we came from: 25 june 2009,NADA,ZERO.The Illusionist wins and we the audience are like WTF WTF?? had just happened :? ???? Was THIS even REAL geek/ :lol: ???
Post by: sigh on December 09, 2011, 02:52:57 AM
To train our brains?
To keep us here and occupied?
To 'test' us?
To prove to himself that the hoax can't be proved (with what has been presented to the world), and therefore the great illusion was totally successful?
Because he himself doesn't know what happened, therefore the reason he hasn't concluded the level 7, no matter how much you guys have tried to help ?
Post by: MJonmind on December 09, 2011, 05:48:58 AM
Quote
To prove to himself that the hoax can't be proved (with what has been presented to the world), and therefore the great illusion was totally successful?
Good guess! :lol:
Post by: reveron1958 on December 09, 2011, 06:23:10 AM
If you say there's no way we can learn what happened without Michael, then why TS opened this thread??
I don't know. I don't know why he did any of the levels. There must be some purpose I am not understanding right now.
I am currently feeling a bit sick that I have been 'wasting' my time reading long confusing posts and trying to understand everything, when I should really have been improving my website, designing more products, spending more time with Mother, helping my sons with their problems, keeping my house cleaner and making nicer meals for my family. pale/
Hope to feel more positive tomorrow. :?
Post by: voiceforthesilent on December 09, 2011, 07:20:33 AM
Anyone remember this old post:QuoteIt was a really sunny day in LA and we were riding to Malibu Beach when our friend called and told us Michael Jackson died 5 minutes ago! We happened to be right next to UCLA medical center where he was taken right after his cardiac arrest. We snuck into the UCLA Medical Center building. We went in the back door, up the elevator, back down, and out the front door, where the UCLA Medical staff, fire men, and security guards were creating a decoy scene of his body being taken away to distract the media. We walked through the chaos and saw two choppers leave and realized that they may have taken him out the back door. We were totally shocked and saddened to loose not one but two legends of our generation in the same day! We left and went to Malibu, listening to Michael Jackson songs on every radio station the whole way, celebrating Michael and Farrah’s lives and appreciating ours!
MJHDI.com
Heartsong - thank you for your efforts.
I do remember reading this story - very interesting that they were allowed to go through the back, up and down elevators and through the front without someone redirecting them. I say this because if there was so much effort from security, etc., to cause a distraction wouldn't they be aware of who was wandering the halls?
I found this and thought I'd post it because the timeline is off. This is from someone else who was there for an appointment that day.
Quote
Postby ILuvUMoreMJ » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:51 am
I remember reading that before, probably on the old board. These people below say that they didn't evacuate the building MJ was in...they direct the post at us hoaxers and ask us not to post the link to their blog, so I'll just copy what they said...
Thursday, June 25, 2009
A very interesting follow up at UCLA today...
PLEASE READ: If you have made your way to this website via "Michael Jackson Death Hoax" dot com, please know that the administrator at that website has used this post to support incorrect information. The fire alarm that is discussed below was for the 200 Medical Center Building in the Peter Morton Center. This building is next door to the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center Hospital where Michael Jackson did in fact die on June 25, 2009. The hospital did not have a fire drill, nor was it ever evacuated during the time that the Jackson family was there. It was later determined that the fire alarm at the 200 building was pulled by a paparazzi to create a distraction so he/she could sneak into the hospital. I have tried to find a contact or an e-mail for the administrator at the Michael Jackson Death Hoax website but conveniently for him or her, one cannot be found. If the administrator reads this, please correct your post and remove your link to this website. If you don't, I will make a formal complaint to Wordpress about your site.
Today I had another follow up appointment with my oncologist at UCLA, and while there, Brett and I got caught in the middle of the Michael Jackson media frenzy regarding his death in the building next to the one we were in. What a sad loss at only age 50.
The day started routine, I arrived a little late for my 12:30 blood draw. Because the results take an hour, Brett and I walked into Westwood to Chili's for lunch. This was a good 3 block walk for me and I'm getting stronger. Apparently, while eating at Chili's, Michael Jackson, the King of Pop, was brought to UCLA Medical Center by ambulance in Cardiac Arrest around 1:00. As we walked back to my 1:30 appointment, Brett and I noticed a helicopter that was hovering the hospital and seemed out of of place since it wasn't landing. Once we got in and into our waiting room for my doctor, we jumped onto WiFi to read in the news what was going on. We couldn't believe we were right there. As we waited, we heard the news of Michael Jackson's death via Twitter. The helicopter sounds grew, and we were curious what was building outside. The nurses weren't really confirming anything, but it was obvious some were in the know.
After waiting almost two hours (my oncologist was fitting me in) we finally got to the exam with my doctor. My rash is healing, and the pain I am feeling and describing is my entire body growing a new layer of skin. She said two more weeks and I should be through the worst of it. She was very pleased with how I was healing, and my White Blood Cell counts, Hemoglobin and Platelets couldn't be more normal - I could donate platelets now if they'd let me! And then as we were about to get to some bigger questions, a fire alarm went off. We had to evacuate the building with the doctors and nurses and stand outside as the media frenzy was growing regarding Michael Jackson. I think a Paparazzi probably pulled the alarm as a distraction. Still, we had to wait for the fire truck and the all clear, within yards of the entrance to the hospital where Michael Jackson was.
In fact, after the little fire alarm, we found out that one of the nurses (the one who takes my vitals) was approached by a young black man as we were waiting for the all clear. He told her his name was Jermaine Jackson, Jr. and he needed help finding the entrance to the hospital, so she escorted him. She was just a few feet away, and we missed it! Once we got the "all clear", we went back in to finish my appointment. At that point, a lot of the nursing staff was confirming that Michael Jackson had indeed passed away. Not sure if we knew ahead of everyone else, but it was still shocking news to say the least. The good news about the rest of my appointment: I am still cancer free, and I no longer need to have blood draws at home! Yay!
Once our appointment was done, it was around 4:30, and Brett and I started to leave, hearing that streets had been closed and we may run into problems. When we got outside, we couldn't believe the change. Seven satellite TV trucks lined up and thousands of people with flowers, signs, etc. We decided that since we were thrust into the middle of it, we may as well get a couple of cell phone photos. It was amazing, it was almost like within an hour, thousands of people were there at the hospital. Here are the two photos I managed to take on my cell phone:
And of course, we had some more drama. As we tried to cross the street to take photos, I tripped over my flip flop and skinned up my arm and leg. It happened right in front of two paramedics and they did nothing. They must have thought I was some Michael Jackson fanatic. Brett was hoping to get interviewed so he could say, "Michael who?" He has such a sense of humor! We went back to oncology where they patched me up, and then we were finally on the way home.
We made it out of the parking the "back way" on Gayley very easily and hit some traffic on the way home. It was a long, strange day. But lots of good news amongst the sad news in Hollywood with Farrah and Michael. I hope they rest in peace.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=3844&start=25
So, this person had an appointment there that day and this is the timeframe according to them:
12:30 - blood draw
after 12:30 - walked to a nearby restaurant
1:00 - While eating they heard Michael was taken to UCLA
1:30 - walked back (3 blocks) to UCLA for the appointment
after 1:30 - helicopter was hovering overhead and seemed out of place since it wasn't landing
after 1:30 - Once inside got onto WiFi and read that Michael had died via Twitter
Helicopter sounds grew. Some nurses were obviously "in the know"
waited two hours for their appointment....(would put it around 3:30 PM)
after 3:30 - fire alarm went off. Had to evacuate building (they were in building next to hospital). They think Paps pulled fire alarm as a distraction. Had to wait for all clear.
Jermaine Jr shows up at hospital (around 3:30 pm???)
Once allowed back in after fire alarm - nurses were confirming that MJ had died.
They notice "7" satellite TV trucks line up.
Post by: AnaMarcia on December 09, 2011, 07:27:12 AM
To train our brains?
To keep us here and occupied?
To 'test' us?
To prove to himself that the hoax can't be proved (with what has been presented to the world), and therefore the great illusion was totally successful?
Because he himself doesn't know what happened, therefore the reason he hasn't concluded the level 7, no matter how much you guys have tried to help ?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
This is very... very possible, for me now! /bravo/
Post by: PureLove on December 09, 2011, 07:27:31 AM
To train our brains?
To keep us here and occupied?
To 'test' us?
To prove to himself that the hoax can't be proved (with what has been presented to the world), and therefore the great illusion was totally successful?
Because he himself doesn't know what happened, therefore the reason he hasn't concluded the level 7, no matter how much you guys have tried to help ?
I'm 100% sure that TS knows what happened, how happened and why happened. And there is a good reason why he hasn't concluded level 7 yet. Probably level 7 is going to be concluded after the BAM. I have full trust in him. And we will be learning soon. This is the final silence before the big storm which is BAM in our case. That's how I feel.
Post by: simalves on December 09, 2011, 07:40:38 AM
To train our brains?
To keep us here and occupied?
To 'test' us?
To prove to himself that the hoax can't be proved (with what has been presented to the world), and therefore the great illusion was totally successful?
Because he himself doesn't know what happened, therefore the reason he hasn't concluded the level 7, no matter how much you guys have tried to help ?
I'm 100% sure that TS knows what happened, how happened and why happened. And there is a good reason why he hasn't concluded level 7 yet. Probably level 7 is going to be concluded after the BAM. I have full trust in him. And we will be learning soon. This is the final silence before the big storm which is BAM in our case. That's how I feel.
Me too! I think all will be revealed soon enough - post BAM. As to expecting the BAM date, I am sure that there have been many days that Michael wished he could have bammed, but since this whole scheme is so elaborate and the pie is not done yet (Especially if it is a sting and that is not complete) it might be taking longer than originally envisioned. When you realise that this is just not a movie or an entertainment product - you will understand that no one can decide just when everything will fall into place and it will be safe for Michael to return. I think more than us, his family and close friends must be eagerly waiting for BAM day too and most importantly MJ too.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 09, 2011, 08:37:23 AM
you let it rumble,
let it stay open,
let it close in silence."
Silence often does speak louder than words. Here's to hoping that we're in the 'closing' stretch (http://www.myemoticons.com/images/hobbies-leisure/eating-drinking/cheers.gif)
My bottle's been chillin' on faith...and it's ice cold.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on December 09, 2011, 09:44:33 AM
"The value would be greater,Ha! I like that quote :)
you let it rumble,
let it stay open,
let it close in silence."
Silence often does speak louder than words. Here's to hoping that we're in the 'closing' stretch (http://www.myemoticons.com/images/hobbies-leisure/eating-drinking/cheers.gif)
My bottle's been chillin' on faith...and it's ice cold.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 09, 2011, 10:18:42 AM
I think TS proved he/she is a very intelligent person, I would dare to say the best of us in analyzing this hoax and reaching conclusions.
I find it hard to believe TS (TIAI - STUDY BTW) would be so careless to make a promise like the one in this thread knowing from the beginning he/she wouldn't be able to complete, unless TS wanted to make his/her exit this way and had no intention to ever come back here.
Post by: Shining light on December 09, 2011, 10:47:07 AM
Hard times just don't go away
You gotta take that chip off your shoulder
It's time you open up
Have some faith
Nothing good ever comes easy
All good things come in due time
Yes it does
You gotta have something to believe in
I'm telling you to open your mind
Gotta put your heart on the line
If you wanna make it right
You've got to reach out and try
Gotta put your heart on the line
If you wanna make it right
Gotta put it all on the line
You see yourself in the mirror
And you don't like what you see
And things aren't getting much clearer
Don't you think it's time you go for a change, oh
Don't waste your time on the past, no, no
It's time you look to the future, oh
It's all right there if you ask
This time if you try much harder
You'll be the best that you can be
Gotta put your heart on the line
If you wanna make it right
You've got to reach out and try
Gotta put your heart on the line
If you wanna get it right Gotta put it all on the line
If you wanna make it right If you're gonna do it now
You gotta learn to try
You can make it work somehow
Let love come free
And that's just so easy now
You gotta go for what you want
You gotta do what you got to do
Gotta put your heart on the line
If you wanna make it right
You've got to reach out and try
Gotta put your heart on the line
If you wanna make it right Gotta put it all on the line
"Sometimes just reading everyone's post in here i wonder how strong peoples faith really is!" We just may be being tested to see how strong our belief really is,it is easy to say you believe something but how easy it is to change your mind even though we are given hope with new clues all the time every time someone expects this to end and it does not,anger,doubt and disappointment take the forefront. How strong is faith really, I have enough already to ride me till the end and I hope everyone will be there as well.Even though i know many are disappointed right now I have faith they will be there in the end as well,no matter how long it takes god bless everyone. peace and love to all.
Post by: bec on December 09, 2011, 11:03:39 AM
Look you guys, we've been reading TS for 2 years now.I would agree except for this that everyone needs to remember; TS has said 2012 is the year [for Bam] on multiple occasions. Paris reiterated this statement on Twitter with her 2012 dinosaur post if you'll recall.
I think TS proved he/she is a very intelligent person, I would dare to say the best of us in analyzing this hoax and reaching conclusions.
I find it hard to believe TS (TIAI - STUDY BTW) would be so careless to make a promise like the one in this thread knowing from the beginning he/she wouldn't be able to complete, unless TS wanted to make his/her exit this way and had no intention to ever come back here.
I am at a complete loss as to why TS did what you mentioned, trapped himself in a promise like that---> 11/29 finish of Level 7---> a promise he apparently broke. THAT'S the part that I must be misunderstanding, a little help would be appreciated, otherwise I am left having to come to my own conclusions on it.
So it's not at all that I expected Bamsday... well perhaps revealing just to us on 11/30, but not the world (we have no credibility, we are the death hoax nuts, so revealing to us only would be *perfectly* safe). But I did, and I think reasonably so, expect that TS was going to share some truth with us regarding the "whys" of the hoax [sting/court/FBI involvement], as he suggested strongly in his Level 7 posts.
Post by: fordtocarr on December 09, 2011, 11:07:12 AM
Just because we read it...don't make it factual....maybe it's a reminder in some way...
Post by: bec on December 09, 2011, 11:19:40 AM
Do you still think TS wants us to doubt him and his word? Possibly. But if so, the test runs very deep indeed.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 09, 2011, 11:30:53 AM
Quote
I am at a complete loss as to why TS did what you mentioned, trapped himself in a promise like that
Instead of finishing that level he/she gave us a new redirect on the next day, with quotes from family promising the truth will come out, followed by 3 shocked smilies.
Is the answer in those smilies? Was TS shocked we still don't have enough faith? Maybe TS considered not all of us deserve to know the how-s?
I usually doubt everything and everyone, but now that TS is missing I realize I trust him more than I thought.
TIAI was an ARG made by TS, let's not forget this. We have to become aware of this. We lived it, were part of it.
Surprisingly, I find myself having more faith in TS now than before. Maybe I make a big mistake, IDK.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 09, 2011, 11:35:09 AM
Post by: bec on December 09, 2011, 11:50:36 AM
I more-then-half expected the Family to finish level 7 where TS left off after that post. Think about it... we were promised to receive an end of Level 7, with truth about the Hows of the hoax; the FBI, the Sting, Court,,, by 11/29, sentencing day---> then we are reminded that the Family said Justice first then Truth, it'll all come out, etc, posted 11/30... then... complete radio silence...?
It's confusing and a little distressing, TS. I have to assume you're reading which is why I address you.
Post by: bec on December 09, 2011, 11:56:40 AM
TS said 2012. Yes, I know. But he didn't say it WOULD happen, he just said if it didn't happen then we know he's a fake. He (TS), Paris, and LaToya--->all fakes if MJ doesn't Bam by the end of 2012. Perhaps that is the legacy. LaToya, Paris, and TS can all be fakes, I'm sure it's no skin off their noses. We may care more then they do. They know the truth. What do they care if we do or not?
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on December 09, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
TS has always said that everyone should think for themselfs, not taken everything for face value but investigate if what someone says is true.
TS would not stay away because you or anyone investigate and think opposite or something whatsoever.
Don't take this personally, please......He comes back, i think this(silent) has other purposes, it's something we don't know but we will discover later on or in the near future.
TS warned us that it would be difficult times for us, and that our believe had to build on solid rocks.
And Now is the time to show that our houses are build on solid rocks, and not on sand.
So Bec. when you look at this from this perspective you said you believe in TS more than ever now, for me it means your house is build on solid rocks, it was a very hectic time these past several months. and now we have the silent, and because of that silent we have the time to let it really settle down and look back and think things over again, and it's really refreshing. We have to use this time wisely..... because it's going to change believe the facts......
LOVE to you all
Post by: fordtocarr on December 09, 2011, 12:28:41 PM
@Ford, agreed... except I was doubting TS's word like crazy for months/weeks/days leading up to the 11/29 "disappearance", doubting with logic and back up facts and evidence, in the end going back n forth with him post after post, and ended up getting scolded (for lack of a better word) by TS for my efforts. I think many would agree he was visibly displeased with me by the end... to the point that I pondered for a moment if I was the reason that nothing happened on 11/29-11/30.I really don't think you should take TS vanishing act personally. I don't know how much any of us play into the hoax. If we became an obstacle to deal with once it took flight, or if we were a key factored in from the initial game plays.
Do you still think TS wants us to doubt him and his word? Possibly. But if so, the test runs very deep indeed.
I seriously do not believe that anything we do or feel on here will factor into the scheme of the hoax/return. We have seen that Michael obviously has this all worked out numerically.
It could be us making excuses for TS disappearance will actually be giving him the excuses to not live up to his word. I'd just carry on with our waiting period and if TS graces us, we'll see what his reasons are. I understand what you say about TS entirely!!! ....and we really will NOT know if he's real or not, until the end of all the hoax, or if he just stays gone! ;) I've not based my feelings on Michael's hoax upon anyone...they are just other members, until this is over and can be shown that they are more than that.
Keep your head up and your faith...you are not alone...the circles we walk around this hoax road we walk together in one belief...Michael is ALIVE.
LOVE to you.
Post by: bec on December 09, 2011, 12:37:28 PM
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on December 09, 2011, 12:53:17 PM
Maybe you think i'm naive, than so be it, but this is what i believe! and i stick to this till.....ever!
Post by: Sarahli on December 09, 2011, 01:11:03 PM
I have to strongly reiterate that I have no loss of faith that MJ is alive and this IS a hoax. I do, however, have a weakening of faith in Bamsday and am wondering if MJ just pulled an Elvis. Literally.
TS said 2012. Yes, I know. But he didn't say it WOULD happen, he just said if it didn't happen then we know he's a fake. He (TS), Paris, and LaToya--->all fakes if MJ doesn't Bam by the end of 2012. Perhaps that is the legacy. LaToya, Paris, and TS can all be fakes, I'm sure it's no skin off their noses. We may care more then they do. They know the truth. What do they care if we do or not?
I think that TS is clearly telling us for certain that Michael will bam, there is no ambiguity. After all his efforts here despite the animosity he encountered it doesn't make any sense at all that he would just not care, so the same for the family. I have no doubt whatsoever about the bam.
TS:
"Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!"
Post by: paula-c on December 09, 2011, 01:13:45 PM
Post by: fordtocarr on December 09, 2011, 01:28:46 PM
Because how can what WE do, fit in with Michael's numerology scheme?
Unless someone on here knows what to post on a certain date, how can whatever we discover coincide with
the VERY dates to fit with Michael's hoax?
Just wondering...trying to fit pieces too...I'm NOT saying TS isn't in the know, somehow...just can't imagine how WE fit into the
numerology, we speak at random and Michael's numerology CANNOT be random at our posts, or they wouldn't fit.
;)
Post by: suspicious mind on December 09, 2011, 01:29:48 PM
course that would have to mean that people have been being hoaxed by a different hoaxter than they thought they were all along. /overreacting/
penguin/ wouldn't it be something? lolol/ mj_bad/
Post by: suspicious mind on December 09, 2011, 01:44:03 PM
@ Bec....I'm sorry I don't remember TS saying that..and to me it's THOSE sort of things that make me go HUMM???Because how can what WE do, fit in with Michael's numerology scheme?@ford seems like there was something from ts that had that flavor about it . ages ago , it seems i remember he backtracked on it to some degree when people did indeed go humm. seems like it was around the time of the the elvis and mj twitter / elisa presley thing . i could be off on the timing.
Unless someone on here knows what to post on a certain date, how can whatever we discover coincide with
the VERY dates to fit with Michael's hoax?
Just wondering...trying to fit pieces too...I'm NOT saying TS isn't in the know, somehow...just can't imagine how WE fit into the
numerology, we speak at random and Michael's numerology CANNOT be random at our posts, or they wouldn't fit.
;)
Post by: bec on December 09, 2011, 09:54:23 PM
I have to strongly reiterate that I have no loss of faith that MJ is alive and this IS a hoax. I do, however, have a weakening of faith in Bamsday and am wondering if MJ just pulled an Elvis. Literally.
TS said 2012. Yes, I know. But he didn't say it WOULD happen, he just said if it didn't happen then we know he's a fake. He (TS), Paris, and LaToya--->all fakes if MJ doesn't Bam by the end of 2012. Perhaps that is the legacy. LaToya, Paris, and TS can all be fakes, I'm sure it's no skin off their noses. We may care more then they do. They know the truth. What do they care if we do or not?
I think that TS is clearly telling us for certain that Michael will bam, there is no ambiguity. After all his efforts here despite the animosity he encountered it doesn't make any sense at all that he would just not care, so the same for the family. I have no doubt whatsoever about the bam.
TS:
"Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!"
Thank you, Sarahli, for the reminder. I can't believe I forgot that. You're right, he did say that MJ will Bam, and gave the deadline of the end of 2012.
But, I hate to point out, he also said we would be finished with Level 7 no later then 11/29, even if he had to finish it himself... and that didn't happen (?). Which is sincerely weird. Why didn't he just finish it? He promised something that was easy for him to fulfill, so why seemingly not just do what he said he was going to do? Maybe it's simply because he really is just human and he got annoyed. Maybe he got so sick of me not believing what he was saying he figured he'd just quit wasting his breath and I ruined it for everyone. Like me being a pain in the ass was the last straw. He talked about the animosity and attack-based opposition that he received on the boards and in the community over 2 years and told me sometimes I need to wonder if what I'm being told is the truth, not always wonder if it's not. Maybe he just had enough of trying to convince people he is a true informer.
So I dunno. Who said TS is a little like the Bible? Like how religious people pick and chose what lines and verses to take literally and which are only metaphorical and open to interpretation. Atheists say you have to take it all literally or not of it literally, otherwise you are just picking and choosing to satisfy your own biases and prejudices; "creating" your own truth if you will. Is the same fair to say about TS?
I don't think so, because TIAI and TS are a direct source of written information--->From TS himself. It is not masses of scripture compiled over the ages written by multiple sources; the second hand rendition (based on memory) of someone else's words (Bible). Apples and oranges, but food for contemplation.
Post by: RK on December 09, 2011, 10:20:08 PM
Great post Sarahli. I agree. Not everything has to be over analyzed. I choose to take this post from TS as a straight forward promise. I feel he has the track record of two+ years of integrity and stickability to deserve such trust.I have to strongly reiterate that I have no loss of faith that MJ is alive and this IS a hoax. I do, however, have a weakening of faith in Bamsday and am wondering if MJ just pulled an Elvis. Literally.
TS said 2012. Yes, I know. But he didn't say it WOULD happen, he just said if it didn't happen then we know he's a fake. He (TS), Paris, and LaToya--->all fakes if MJ doesn't Bam by the end of 2012. Perhaps that is the legacy. LaToya, Paris, and TS can all be fakes, I'm sure it's no skin off their noses. We may care more then they do. They know the truth. What do they care if we do or not?
I think that TS is clearly telling us for certain that Michael will bam, there is no ambiguity. After all his efforts here despite the animosity he encountered it doesn't make any sense at all that he would just not care, so the same for the family. I have no doubt whatsoever about the bam.
TS:
"Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!"
Post by: scorpionchik on December 09, 2011, 10:43:29 PM
To train our brains?
To keep us here and occupied?
To 'test' us?
To prove to himself that the hoax can't be proved (with what has been presented to the world), and therefore the great illusion was totally successful?
Because he himself doesn't know what happened, therefore the reason he hasn't concluded the level 7, no matter how much you guys have tried to help ?
I'm 100% sure that TS knows what happened, how happened and why happened. And there is a good reason why he hasn't concluded level 7 yet. Probably level 7 is going to be concluded after the BAM. I have full trust in him. And we will be learning soon. This is the final silence before the big storm which is BAM in our case. That's how I feel.
Come on PureLove, I think otherwise and I am not surprised at all. But I still believe Michael is alive and it has nothing to do, never have, with TS/Front identity and 'levels'.
Post by: Snoopy71 on December 09, 2011, 10:48:11 PM
Are we any closer to figuring this out? (http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/12190/lookout.gif) (http://www.smileyvault.com/)
Post by: Sarahli on December 10, 2011, 12:32:53 AM
I have to strongly reiterate that I have no loss of faith that MJ is alive and this IS a hoax. I do, however, have a weakening of faith in Bamsday and am wondering if MJ just pulled an Elvis. Literally.
TS said 2012. Yes, I know. But he didn't say it WOULD happen, he just said if it didn't happen then we know he's a fake. He (TS), Paris, and LaToya--->all fakes if MJ doesn't Bam by the end of 2012. Perhaps that is the legacy. LaToya, Paris, and TS can all be fakes, I'm sure it's no skin off their noses. We may care more then they do. They know the truth. What do they care if we do or not?
I think that TS is clearly telling us for certain that Michael will bam, there is no ambiguity. After all his efforts here despite the animosity he encountered it doesn't make any sense at all that he would just not care, so the same for the family. I have no doubt whatsoever about the bam.
TS:
"Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!"
Thank you, Sarahli, for the reminder. I can't believe I forgot that. You're right, he did say that MJ will Bam, and gave the deadline of the end of 2012.
But, I hate to point out, he also said we would be finished with Level 7 no later then 11/29, even if he had to finish it himself... and that didn't happen (?). Which is sincerely weird. Why didn't he just finish it? He promised something that was easy for him to fulfill, so why seemingly not just do what he said he was going to do? Maybe it's simply because he really is just human and he got annoyed. Maybe he got so sick of me not believing what he was saying he figured he'd just quit wasting his breath and I ruined it for everyone. Like me being a pain in the ass was the last straw. He talked about the animosity and attack-based opposition that he received on the boards and in the community over 2 years and told me sometimes I need to wonder if what I'm being told is the truth, not always wonder if it's not. Maybe he just had enough of trying to convince people he is a true informer.
So I dunno. Who said TS is a little like the Bible? Like how religious people pick and chose what lines and verses to take literally and which are only metaphorical and open to interpretation. Atheists say you have to take it all literally or not of it literally, otherwise you are just picking and choosing to satisfy your own biases and prejudices; "creating" your own truth if you will. Is the same fair to say about TS?
I don't think so, because TIAI and TS are a direct source of written information--->From TS himself. It is not masses of scripture compiled over the ages written by multiple sources; the second hand rendition (based on memory) of someone else's words (Bible). Apples and oranges, but food for contemplation.
Come on bec this is not your fault, I don't know what makes you think that. I don't see TS not posting just because one of us wouldn't supposedly understand or agree with him, it has happened quite often during the course of this journey and he always stayed with us. If TS wanted to finish this level like he said (single handedly), he would just have finished it, period. We have NO idea about his reasons as of now, and there definititely must be good reasons for him not posting, as always with TS, so I think it's just best to wait for that and not speculate too much. I feel you are taking it all on yourself like a big burden on your shoulders, please just don't because that's not true. We are a team, if we "fail" or "win" it's all together. Anyway I don't think it's about that.
Lest you forget:
TS:
"But I really appreciate your help here bec, I really do--you know that. bearhug"
I am sure it's not changed.
Post by: bec on December 10, 2011, 12:42:04 AM
For the most part, I am just sitting back and watching people discover some of my secrets, before I get around to spilling them! But actually, that is the way I want it. :)QuoteLast of all, I am the one who started this thread: maybe I should give a little more of an overview, so people will have a little better idea of the bigger picture that we are working on piecing together here. The ambulance picture is a major key to unlocking the entire hoax--how and who, etc. It's not only important to understand IF the photo is fake, but HOW it was faked. Once we understand how (staged in the same amublance, but another day; or staged in another ambulance on another day; or not staged at all, but Photoshop fabricated; or not fake at all, but 100% real; etc)--then the rest of the events should fall into place relatively easily.
For example if the paramedics were involved with staging the photo before 6-25-2009, then they were most likely also in on the hoax itself. But if the ambulance photo was 100% real, or perhaps real but slightly edited in Photoshop, then maybe the paramedics are not in on the hoax at all. Once we understand whether or not the paramedics are in on the hoax, then many of the other pieces should fall into place--such as who or what was in the ambulance on 6-25-2009 (MJ, or dummy, or nothing, etc). There is also the question of whether the entire court and courtroom is staged, with the judge and jury and lawyers all being confidential agreement actors--or is there perhaps just a few key people who know what's really going on.Why would they spend the time and money staging an ambulance shot—not knowing where he might be on his final day, or what kind of ambulance might pick him up?
The next level means that we are now going to shift the focus from the ambulance picture (whether it was real or fake, etc) to whether or not some or all of the paramedics are in on the hoax. Did the actual paramedics pose for a staged ambulance shot before 6-25-09? Or did MJ use actors dressed like paramedics? Was the ambulance photo staged with the actual #71 LAFD ambulance, or another one that looks about the same inside? Would the real paramedics publicly deny the ambulance photo, if it was not them in the picture (and they were not in on the hoax)?
<snip>
This is why I started our investigation process with the ambulance photo; now we know that it was planned and staged in advance, so we have a good platform upon which we can build our next level of investigation.Finally: is this hoax a prank, or a Thriller II reality movie, or an ARG, or a sting operation, or a Vendetta, or an NWO/EOW warning, or a wake-up call to the gullible public (don't believe everything in the media), etc--which is it? And the answer is: all of the above! It is something that people have never seen before, at least not the combination of these things and on this scale.I agree, that this was not "JUST" for a joke, or fun. And I included several reasons other than just a prank. However, even though there are several other reasons, you know MJ is a prankster--and he is certainly capable of throwing some things in for a laugh here and there. I'm sure that you have read many people refer to the trial as the man's-laughter (manslaughter) case.
It’s now time for the third level! :D 8-) :)
The focus now is going to be the trip from the house to the hospital. And most specifically: who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA? MJ himself, an MJ double (still alive), a real corpse, a dummy, or nothing?
Please do not jump to any quick conclusions on this, and be very careful to remember the following principles of investigation: #1 the fewer people in on the hoax, the better; #2 once you have a theory, try to debunk your own theory; #3 we are looking for a theory that has at least two different strong points, which nobody can debunk.
<snip>
The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
Post by: bec on December 10, 2011, 12:55:10 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 10, 2011, 02:18:14 AM
TS has specifically stated more then once in the past that the return is dependent, at least in part, on us few hoaxers, and how much we understand the reasons for the hoax. Just sayin'.
@BEC
you have mentioned this twice. i have mentioned this twice. i am sure others have too. we really need to look at TIAI 1-7 again...
this may be interactive, just as was the courtcase.... could it be us, the very believers of this DH that are holding up a BAM?
i make reference to previous quote....
:? look I may have screwed this up for everyone with my pushing the Live MJ theory yesterday into the late night. I was just reviewing some information and happened upon TS's first update. This quote was 1-7 posted on 1/12/2010, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=3391.msg52818#msg52818
That's sort of freaky. What would you guys do if it was all my fault? /overreacting/
@ BEC - i have also previously posted in the "1 million hits for thriller on YT" thread the following comment abt a month ago, i was also referring to 1-7 (yes i did go back and read them all ;) )...this is brilliant. so happy the goal was reached. if only these 1000000 people joined the army of L.O.V.E
mj's bam could be dependant on how much support he has and people are gathered around him. perhaps bam date not yet set, and he will decide once he has enough support and people who are ready to stand by his side. dunno overthinking perhaps.
been reading some really old TS posts back from 2010.
Post by: MJonmind on December 10, 2011, 02:31:40 AM
Quote
this is brilliant. so happy the goal was reached. if only these 1000000 people joined the army of L.O.V.E
mj's bam could be dependant on how much support he has and people are gathered around him. perhaps bam date not yet set, and he will decide once he has enough support and people who are ready to stand by his side. dunno overthinking perhaps.
Well that might relate to TS' last post talking about LaToya thanking the fans for their support, followed by the shocked smilies. I initially posted that it seemed he was sad or disappointed in our support somehow.
Quote
November 21, 2011: “Thanking all the FANS for their support last night! Thank you so very much!!! Keep the faith!!!” {http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/138764680981262336 (http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/138764680981262336)}.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
Just putting together some of the key parts from TS on 7c, to try to help piece some sense of what he wants us to look for. :? bangbang
TS
Quote
However, we will finish no later than November 29--even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).
Quote
So did the Illuminati outthink him? Or did he outthink them, AND FLY OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOURS BEFORE THE KICKOFF TIME? Just in case the answer to that question is not self-evident, Jermaine made it crystal clear in his “airport” slip/clue. But I’ll save the details on that for another post.
(TS's longer but important post regarding the danger MJ was in, that the hoax was very serious, with some fun aspects.)
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg375503#msg375503 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg375503#msg375503)
Quote
However, I will not put the puzzle piece up for 7b, because there are still things that I want to address (and maybe others as well). But we can now start discussing 7c. Aspects of the court: all real, partly real and partly hoax, all hoax.
Quote
Relating to 7c, I want to bring up the following TMZ article:(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2011/11/07/1107-jury-toilet-paper-ex.jpg)
DR. MURRAY MANSLAUGHTER TRIAL
Jury Goes Down the Toilet
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21243.0)}
The article itself is merely about the jury asking for toilet paper, and paper towels--definitely NOT a newsworthy item. But the TITLE of the article tells a different story than the article itself. Also, the picture has three sets of 6 rolls of toilet paper (666).
This was posted on TMZ after the jury made its decision, and before the verdict was announced. Since La Toya has confirmed that Harvey Levin knows what is going on (and we have seen that for a long time, anyway): they probably knew at the time that the verdict was guilty.
TMZ took the article down, shortly after it was posted on the hoax forum (which means that they were probably watching to see when we posted it here, and then they deleted it on TMZ). They did not go to all the trouble to create the picture, and post the article, for nothing (only to delete it shortly after). Therefore, what is the message that we are supposed to get from this article, in relation to the jury and therefore the court?
I have enough confidence in TS, that there is a good reason that he left us hanging, so to speak, without completing 7c as he had said. There's another twist in the road, a hidden clue somewhere, a mystery to be solved from clues elsewhere. I'm sure he's reading and waiting. :mrgreen:
TS sure mentions Jermaine’s airport slip-up a lot (perhaps about 5 times), like it is key for 7a, b, c.
Is the family somehow finishing level 7c? Do we have to look for their words for the answer?
Does anyone know what the 2 brothers that spoke on x-factor said on stage? (MJ being there incognito might be saying something for 7c.)
What about Pearl Jr.’s trip to the fan fest, and seeing the video games with the FBI visible in the Moonwalker game at 1:55?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2YkJuwVY3M&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2YkJuwVY3M&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL)
In another video at 1:50 she says Joe’s father was in communication with the FBI. Then she says J. Edgar Hoover, head of the FBI, 37+ years, is the theme of a movie out on 11.11.11. She guesses the sting is on doctors, the new drug dealers in prescription drugs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjRaK7adOsA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjRaK7adOsA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL)
Does the 666 in the rolls number involve the anti-christ and the mark of the beast? :?
Post by: MJonmind on December 10, 2011, 03:18:59 AM
Something I just noticed that TS said absolutely floored me! :shock: afraid/ ;)
TS on:November 28, 2011, 11:35:50 PM
Quote
First and foremost are MJ’s beliefs about the Bible, the NWO, and the end of the world. I have already documented this significantly, so I won’t repeat it here (see Update #1, for example). For MJ, these beliefs are not just entertainment; they are very real. There is a real battle between good and evil in this world; it has existed for thousands of years, but it gets much more intense near the end of the world. And anyone who does not take sides with the evil powers, especially if they are rich and/or famous, will become prime targets of these evil powers (often referred to as the Illuminati).
On the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
For those who have been following the tweets from Paris, you know that she has tweeted several things about “secret societies”, the Illuminati, the eye-pyramid (with the Army of Love cutting the strings), the warning about the New World Order, etc. And MJ himself did the music video, while standing beside the NWO all-seeing eye {at 1:05,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q)}. And he has also talked about a “conspiracy”, more than once.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Why would TS choose this passage about Jesus being temped by the devil? Was MJ being tempted by the devil? Even the threat of MJ having the meeting on the top of the trade centre on the morning of 9/11, could be compared to Jesus being taken to the pinnacle of the temple.
If TS is Michael, is he saying he is the same as, or the Christ or what??
Can someone else explain this away? Maybe I'm seeing too much in this.
Here is the whole temptation story. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=4&v=1&t=KJV#1 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=4&v=1&t=KJV#1)
Could MJ have been so very thin at the rehearsals because he had been fasting 40 days on water, like Dick Gregory had said http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529131,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529131,00.html) . Had Satan temped Michael to give him all the kingdoms of the world if he would bow down and worship the devil, but MJ refused, resulting in the 2 allegations and trial of 05? Farrakhan called it a crucifixion. But perhaps BAM will be God giving MJ true victory because he fought the devil and won, and he will receive ALL the kingdoms of the world. BAM! The End Of the World, followed by Someone ruling the earth with a rod of iron. Front posted the verse, "Michael faught against the dragon and prevailed."
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=5167.msg335650#msg335650 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=5167.msg335650#msg335650)
Is this 7c?
Post by: MJonmind on December 10, 2011, 04:10:39 AM
"As God has shown us by turning stone to bread", was removed and replaced because apparently it was too controversial. I tried to give my explanation for why I believe it was really changed, to draw attention to it by Michael. It also relates to the same story of the temptation of Christ, and it is the two verses before the Matthew 4:5-7 that TS posted above (vs. 3 - 4).
Here are my rather long posts (sorry) from long ago, for anyone who might be interested.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=9654.msg161568#msg161568 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=9654.msg161568#msg161568)
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=12256.msg216467#msg216467 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=12256.msg216467#msg216467)
(http://i56.tinypic.com/33coxet.png)
Post by: 2good2btrue on December 10, 2011, 04:16:57 AM
It's a secret that is being revealed daily, dot by dot... The drawing will take a few twists and turns along the way so check back often.
Behind each dot you see in the portrait below, there is a real person – a fan – somewhere in the world who came here, like you,
to be part of Michael's legacy.
To complete Michael's Tribute Portrait, it will take at least 1,000,000 fans to get a dot! Tell your friends – and watch it grow.
The drawing represents multiple moments in Michael's life, from his younger years to more recent times. There will be more than one image of Michael in this drawing. Since fans have different opinions on what Michael should look like in the drawing, I came up with a concept that will make everyone happy. How will the different images of Michael work together in the drawing? It's a secret that is being revealed daily, dot by dot... The drawing will take a few twists and turns along the way so check back often.
http://www.michaeljacksontributeportrait.com/portraitupdate.php
Listen to the HOAX music theme...and hear what Jermaine has to say..."We are asking MJ fans all around the world to get involved because it's really important"
I remember reading about one million being the hoax theme, which has been brought up many times...
We need to be at least one million people strong, to make a difference....
Nation of Islam leader, Louis Farrakhan even told MJ, about a million man march that he was supposed to attend...............hmmmmmmmmm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z6b-o870SA&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Michael Jackson was more than The King of Pop – the Guinness Book of World Records recognized him as the number one recording artist who supported the most charities.
Inspired by the power of music to bring people together and make the world a better place, The Michael Jackson Tribute Portrait unites music lovers from more than 180 countries.
Make your mark in the largest and most respected tribute in the world. (It's free.)
A drawing made from only dots. One dot = one person.
Connecting dots makes a difference!
Post by: PureLove on December 10, 2011, 07:35:13 AM
To train our brains?
To keep us here and occupied?
To 'test' us?
To prove to himself that the hoax can't be proved (with what has been presented to the world), and therefore the great illusion was totally successful?
Because he himself doesn't know what happened, therefore the reason he hasn't concluded the level 7, no matter how much you guys have tried to help ?
I'm 100% sure that TS knows what happened, how happened and why happened. And there is a good reason why he hasn't concluded level 7 yet. Probably level 7 is going to be concluded after the BAM. I have full trust in him. And we will be learning soon. This is the final silence before the big storm which is BAM in our case. That's how I feel.
Come on PureLove, I think otherwise and I am not surprised at all. But I still believe Michael is alive and it has nothing to do, never have, with TS/Front identity and 'levels'.
You always wrote that you found many inconsistencies in TS' updates and posts but yet you couldn't post any of them. TS asked you to write them too. I personally think that you are underestimating TS but also I respect your decision which you prefer to deny TS' credibility and I'm expecting to have the same respect from you as well. So I would be appreciated if you don't 'come on' me for what I believe.
TS proved that he has inside info long long ago and it is just in front of our eyes. People can not debunk what he wrote but still they keep on criticizing him without any solid proof. I was a believer before TS started to make his posts but I can not refuse to see the info he has given us which was never ever found by any of other believers before. He helped many of us to make a huge progress in this hoax and I have full respect, trust and belief in him. I do not care who TS is, never interested in his identity but interested in the message he gave. And the levels and his updates are so explanatory about the whys, hows, whos, whens of the hoax for the ones who are not in a denial to see it.
Post by: PureLove on December 10, 2011, 07:49:08 AM
Great post Sarahli. I agree. Not everything has to be over analyzed. I choose to take this post from TS as a straight forward promise. I feel he has the track record of two+ years of integrity and stickability to deserve such trust.I have to strongly reiterate that I have no loss of faith that MJ is alive and this IS a hoax. I do, however, have a weakening of faith in Bamsday and am wondering if MJ just pulled an Elvis. Literally.
TS said 2012. Yes, I know. But he didn't say it WOULD happen, he just said if it didn't happen then we know he's a fake. He (TS), Paris, and LaToya--->all fakes if MJ doesn't Bam by the end of 2012. Perhaps that is the legacy. LaToya, Paris, and TS can all be fakes, I'm sure it's no skin off their noses. We may care more then they do. They know the truth. What do they care if we do or not?
I think that TS is clearly telling us for certain that Michael will bam, there is no ambiguity. After all his efforts here despite the animosity he encountered it doesn't make any sense at all that he would just not care, so the same for the family. I have no doubt whatsoever about the bam.
TS:
"Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!"
Totally totally agree with you both Sarahli and RK. And I would like to add a couple of things to this issue. I don't believe that the reason why TS hasn't finished the level yet is a member or members of the forum or it is not about we disappointed him. He was bashed, humiliated, ignored, underestimated since he started to make his posts. Still many people underestimate the info he gave to us. If he was going to give up, he would have given up long long ago. It has to be about something else. It can be related with the BAM or something else that is going to happen. TS never left us on the half of the road and he won't. I have full trust in him. And I think it is useless to focus on one single thing. We should focus on the bigger picture and keep on believing and trusting.
Post by: suspicious mind on December 10, 2011, 08:15:54 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 10, 2011, 10:04:09 AM
Something I just noticed that TS said absolutely floored me! :shock: afraid/ ;)
TS on:November 28, 2011, 11:35:50 PM
[/font][/size]On the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Could MJ have been so very thin at the rehearsals because he had been fasting 40 days on water, like Dick Gregory had said http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529131,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,529131,00.html) . Had Satan temped Michael to give him all the kingdoms of the world if he would bow down and worship the devil, but MJ refused, resulting in the 2 allegations and trial of 05? Farrakhan called it a crucifixion.
This was a very interesting post. I don't know if TS' intention was to identify Michael with Jesus once again but for sure it is very interesting.
From what i read some believe Archangel Michael is Jesus, some believe he is a leader of the angels army or something like that.
Now it is understandable, in the light of MJ's creation, that he gave huge importance to these things. It's amazing, really.
Post by: VeryLittleSusie on December 10, 2011, 01:19:40 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 10, 2011, 04:55:48 PM
TS says Blout was not driving?
If Blout was not driving then he must be in on the hoax because otherwise would he not pipe up and say the pic is fake? Those are clearly 2 white guys in the back.
Blount was riding in the long seat beside Murray, to the right of Murray (towards the front, Murray being towards the back). This would be out of the shot through the window (if the shot had really been taken on the fly).
Senneff said that he was at the head (airway), and Goodwin was doing the compressions. This fits what we see in the ambulance photo.
I see 2 possibilities:
- Senneff and Goodwin are in because they appear in the photo in case it was staged in advance
or
- Chris really got a photo on June 25th through the tinted windows somehow, and all they had to do was to replace the patient's face with MJ's face, in this case none of the paramedics should be in, except Blount who said he recognized MJ. But this doesn't explain the delay of leaving Carlwood with a patient in a life and death condition, while the staff was leaving the residence so they could not see what/who was on the stretcher.
Also, TS seems pretty sure it was staged in advance. In this case I don't think they used actors for the paramedics because they couldn't know in advance what the paramedics will do ( one on the head providing air and the other one doing chest compressions). If they couldn't used actors - it means they used the real paramedics Senneff and Goodwin who in this case have to be in the hoax.
With only Senneff and Goodwin and possibly Blount in the hoax- I think we need a corpse.
Post by: bec on December 10, 2011, 07:28:58 PM
There were actually 4 points that proved it was staged in advance, the shadow on the red car in the video is just the most undeniable of the 4 points. Review the Levels for yourselves if you like but we can safely tuck that one away as PROVEN.
Post by: bec on December 10, 2011, 07:33:08 PM
Post by: paula-c on December 10, 2011, 07:37:53 PM
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Level%207/Puzzle1.jpg)
And now (drum roll) … we are at the final level—level number 7! (7 represents completion). Now it’s time to take everything that we have learned so far (in the previous levels, etc), and put the last few pieces of the puzzle into place.
This is the final frontier for the hoax; the “when’s” and “why’s” have already been thoroughly established, especially through the numerology—and more than a year has gone by, without anyone even making a serious attempt to claim the $999 reward. Therefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
The previous levels were not a waste, because without them we would not be where we are now. Much of the research has already been done, and some of the pieces have already come together (just like the picture above); but we still have a few major areas that need completed (just like the picture above). As I have said already, the minor details on the “how’s” are not very important (and may never been fully understood); however, for more than one reason, the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved.
For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7. Another major area, that keeps popping up unresolved, is the idea that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on some day other than 6-25-09; and closely related is the fairly common idea that two or more ambulances were used (supposedly different lettering, reflector, wrong shadows, etc).
There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo). There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
The ambulance photo needed to be staged in advance, because of the great difficulty getting a good picture through the window “on the fly”; and if you missed the one chance, you would not get another. But staging that photo in advance would not raise public suspicion, if it was done indoors.
Also, some seem to think that the ambulance picture was generated from nothing, in good-old “Photoshop”; but the reality is, no matter how good you are at Photoshop, you don’t just start from nothing and end up with a high resolution photograph (like the ambulance photo). Staging the ambulance photo gives you the basic picture(s) to work from; and then you can modify it with Photoshop (such as adding the car reflection, by taking a separate photo of the car, and then layering it in Photoshop with some transparency).
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked. Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.
8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
penguin/
At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Last but not least, here is a real good statement from bec, which she posted in my recent thread about the timing of the 911 call (12:20 or 12:21?). Keep this concept in mind, because it applies to far more than just the 911 call. “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203)}.
As it is possible to have a photo as good, the mabulancia in movement and with Polarized glass
Post by: paula-c on December 10, 2011, 07:45:56 PM
Ps. @Gina again, Senneff, Goodwin and possibly Blount... and Cooper and Nygun (I can't ever remember how to spell her name) and the Coroner... now come again how we need a corpse? Not following that logic at all.
Those who had contact with the body, two paramedics, Cooper, Nygun and the coroner,...5 Persons,... /pull hair/
Post by: bec on December 10, 2011, 08:27:05 PM
Ps. @Gina again, Senneff, Goodwin and possibly Blount... and Cooper and Nygun (I can't ever remember how to spell her name) and the Coroner... now come again how we need a corpse? Not following that logic at all.
Those who had contact with the body, two paramedics, Cooper, Nygun and the coroner,...5 Persons,... /pull hair/
Yes, so why do we need a corpse? All these people are already defined as in on it by necessity (staged pic, t.o.d. 2:26, autopsy finalized 9/9/9). This is what we always come down to on this debate.
Post by: paula-c on December 10, 2011, 09:03:45 PM
Ps. @Gina again, Senneff, Goodwin and possibly Blount... and Cooper and Nygun (I can't ever remember how to spell her name) and the Coroner... now come again how we need a corpse? Not following that logic at all.
Those who had contact with the body, two paramedics, Cooper, Nygun and the coroner,...5 Persons,... /pull hair/
Yes, so why do we need a corpse? All these people are already defined as in on it by necessity (staged pic, t.o.d. 2:26, autopsy finalized 9/9/9). This is what we always come down to on this debate.
I have always thought of these two options, or a body or nothing
Perhaps that is why the bodyguards in the hospital treat both hide to someone? In the stretcher and in any way that video at the entrance of the hospital we can not conclude anything
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 11, 2011, 01:10:33 AM
Ps. @Gina again, Senneff, Goodwin and possibly Blount... and Cooper and Nygun (I can't ever remember how to spell her name) and the Coroner... now come again how we need a corpse? Not following that logic at all.
For the rest of them who saw the body ...what am I missing? There were 5 paramedics (Senneff and Blount arrived with the ambulance and 3 arrived in the firetruck - Goodwin, Brad and I don't remember the name of the last one) and all of them saw the body, or not? If you know different please tell me.
And also at UCLA more people saw the body than just the 2 doctors you mentioned. Doctors always have nurses around to assist, so it's not possible to have no body.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 11, 2011, 01:14:11 AM
Post by: bec on December 11, 2011, 01:31:18 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 11, 2011, 01:36:26 AM
So this Brad was there too and saw and touched the body.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=PL8B911E82F130FD13&v=QQXU2KE1j_k#![/youtube]
Post by: bec on December 11, 2011, 01:45:10 AM
Post by: Suzy7 on December 11, 2011, 03:35:51 AM
The two paramedics, Senneff and Goodwin are most likely to be considered "in on it", because of the ambulance photo and Senneff's report etc. Blount however, is the one who didn't recognize the corpse as MJ and has no real need to be involved directly in the hoax.
The coroner as stated a million times, would be in the know regardless of whatever if anything, was used.
So I see it as: 2 paramedics and the coroner. So, a corpse was used for the least amount of people involved in the hoax on June 25. There is already enough proof in this thread and others, that show a corpse being used is most likely in comparision to other options. If anyone disagrees with this theory, debunk it with evidence.
TS has said several times, "MJ was not in the ambulance..." and "MJ did not go to UCLA..." oh, and to paraphrase "He flew out of the state!" Where is the double talk?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 11, 2011, 07:31:28 AM
So says a guy we suspect of being in on it. Brad didn't testify. Scripted.
Indeed Brad didn't testify but also Blount couldn't risk to lie about Brad being in the bedroom, because Brad could have denied it if it wasn't true (making an interview or public statement ).
@Suzy7
Quote
Blount however, is the one who didn't recognize the corpse as MJ and has no real need to be involved directly in the hoax.
Suzy Blount testified he recognized MJ instantly, just watch his testimony. But I was reading that at first he denied he recognized MJ, so why he changed his opinion for the trial?
Post by: Sarahli on December 11, 2011, 08:41:13 AM
Something that I don't understand is why the other paramedics have not testified. Is there an explanation for that? Coincidentally or not only the ones we suspect to be in the know testified.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 11, 2011, 09:37:28 AM
Post by: paula-c on December 11, 2011, 09:53:21 AM
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ivcomp10.jpg)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 11, 2011, 12:53:48 PM
Post by: Suzy7 on December 11, 2011, 08:58:28 PM
The whole court was based on the premise of Michael Jackson having been the victim who died on June 25; with not only the world believing he is dead, but the family and paramedics who all saw the victim *confirmed* the patient was indeed MJ. Remember, atleast two of the paramedics are in the know so they would have played a huge part in suggesting the victim was Michael. The power of suggestion is just that, powerful. So even if again, Blount didn't think the victim looked like MJ and he wasn't in on the hoax, he would have went along with the consensus anyway.
If he is in, that would only be 3 paramedics but still, one less is better.
Post by: bec on December 11, 2011, 10:17:48 PM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011)
Good eye! <!-- s:lol: -->:lol:<!-- s:lol: -->
Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress. There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other). But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.
On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way. Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.
And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let’s examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point).
What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be “in on it”? NONE! Why? Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be “in on”. Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be “in on it”? None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.
But in that case, wouldn’t people realize that it was not MJ? Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in. As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think. There are several things that would tend to distract people’s attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).
We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do. But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence. And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766)}.
See also a similar but slightly different theory {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518)}.
I added the bold.
Post by: bec on December 12, 2011, 12:58:38 AM
Quote from: MJhasSpokenQuote from: TS_commentsQuote from: PureLoveQuote from: TS_commentsQuote from: mdcJust wondering...
Do you think the cabinet from the pictures match the cabinet from the video? Wouldn't that white border show up in the pictures?
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12209)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=12208)
Good catch! I'm glad somebody noticed this--it is one of the "secrets" that I have been planning on pointing out, if nobody found it. But I'm always glad when someone else finds it first. There is one more thing about this that I will include later, if nobody else gets it first.
TS, I was wondering what the other one more thing you were going to include. Did you write it to us already or someone else has found it or are you waiting for the ambulance research/discussion to end?
So far, I haven't seen anyone find the other thing on this. I'll give it a few more days for someone else to find it.
Can you at least give us help in the right direction...it's hard to know what were looking for when we have nothing to go on. <!-- s:) -->:)<!-- s:) -->
Back on topic ...
I am now going to say that the staged photo was done in the same LAFD #71 ambulance--there were not two different ambulances. In fact, why would they need a different ambulance (rented or otherwise), if the FBI was working directly with LAFD station #71?
The answer to the above pictures can be found in this video {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09tRR6ppKQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09tRR6ppKQ)}.
That's the key, isn't it?
Answers everything. Why would they need a body [to fool medical staff @UCLA] if the FBI is working directly with MJ?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 12, 2011, 01:45:18 AM
Anyway, thank you for posting those comments from TS.
But for me TS sounds like supporting the corpse theory, and for you TS obviously sounds like supporting the nobody theory.
TS insisted many times on the paramedics, asking us to figure out if ALL of them were in. Right from the beginning. I have this feeling that not ALL the paramedics are in, but that's just my feeling. I can't prove it though.
FBI working with LAFD could also mean FBI was able to provide a corpse (I think they have power and resources to do this) and only Senneff and Goodwin had to be in as they appear in the fake ambulance photo. The less in the know the better, even if FBI is involved.
I also agree with those who say those who are not in the know are under the influence of the power of suggestion. But for an observing man the power of suggestion is not convincing enough though. Like you can tell me it's black when I see it with my own eyes it is white. There has to be confusion for the power of suggestion to work.
Post by: curls on December 12, 2011, 02:05:16 AM
TS once warned that we can't solve problems in our theories by simply saying such and such must be 'in on it' (or words to that effect). I wonder if the FBI might comes under that category - a bit like the cavalry riding in and sorting everything out at a stroke! It may be too simple to say their involvement makes anything possible - on the other hand, that may be the simplicity that does indeed explain it all!
Could the FBI have instructed paramedics, doctors, coroner (all the people we've suspected as in on it), to tell the stories we've heard under the guise of covering up how MJ really 'died', without them ever having to be told that MJ is alive? Could all these people be 'in on' something top secret, without knowing what exactly?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 12, 2011, 02:33:04 AM
Could the FBI have instructed paramedics, doctors, coroner (all the people we've suspected as in on it), to tell the stories we've heard under the guise of covering up how MJ really 'died', without them ever having to be told that MJ is alive? Could all these people be 'in on' something top secret, without knowing what exactly?
But in this case and with no body they would figure it out it can be a hoax. FBI can't stop them from thinking for themselves.
Post by: curls on December 12, 2011, 02:37:10 AM
THEY presumably have far more information than us, and yes, would quite probably have worked it out, even if they hadn't actually been told - but they can't/won't say because of the handy FBI involvement!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 12, 2011, 02:38:57 AM
Post by: curls on December 12, 2011, 02:44:49 AM
Hmm - who's to say they actually saw ANYTHING happening? They could've just been told what to say they saw. Maybe?
Post by: curls on December 12, 2011, 02:51:43 AM
He is there, on hand to 'explain' as much as needs to be explained and give orders to those that need to know as June 25th unfolds???
Has my weekend away revitalised my brain or made it total mush?!
Post by: Suzy7 on December 12, 2011, 02:58:34 AM
Just because the F.B.I. is involved, doesn't mean having everyone "in on it" is safe. This is still a hoax at the end of the day, and it needs to be done with a theory that involves the LEAST amount of people. TS stated his frustration earlier in this thread by stating how everyones solution seems to be, "well they must be in on it". Thank you for posting those posts by TS though; because they do seem to indirectly point to one theory. A corpse. The 'nothing' theory was tossed out long ago.
You don't think TS asked everyone to find information on the longest lengths of time resuscitation efforts have been performed at UCLA, AFTER a person has flatlined, for no reason at all? Do you?
I think the old english proverb "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" applies here...
Post by: Suzy7 on December 12, 2011, 03:04:30 AM
Post by: Adi on December 12, 2011, 03:15:58 AM
You don't think TS asked everyone to find information on the longest lengths of time resuscitation efforts have been performed at UCLA, AFTER a person has flatlined, for no reason at all? Do you?
Good point Suzy7.
TS threw that question out to us and a few people picked up on it.....
Post by: bec on December 12, 2011, 03:19:34 AM
People get all bent out of shape about fooling people that came into contact with the body on a speculative level. Alleged "people". None of them have ever come forward. They exist only in speculation and imagination. Whispers and insinuations. Assumptive persons that may OR MAY NOT EXIST.
Suzy, maybe the horse doesn't drink because the bucket is fouled and the handler is too inattentive to notice.
Post by: bec on December 12, 2011, 03:23:57 AM
You don't think TS asked everyone to find information on the longest lengths of time resuscitation efforts have been performed at UCLA, AFTER a person has flatlined, for no reason at all? Do you?
Good point Suzy7.
TS threw that question out to us and a few people picked up on it.....
Yeah to go research and find out that those circumstances were under very controlled conditions with completely different circumstances then the "official story" of what happened to MJ on 6/25/09.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 12, 2011, 03:55:43 AM
The doctors and paramedics who testified about working on a body, don't exist? Hmmm...
No one is getting bent out of shape, but it seems you are for no reason at all. I'm not sure what part of TS' posts you interpret as 'nothing or MJ went to UCLA'. Again, you nor anyone else have provided evidence against the corpse theory.
The person I referred to as "leading the horse to water", was TS. He did say "I would be handing much of it out on a silver platter", so why complicate things?
Post by: MJonmind on December 12, 2011, 04:50:02 AM
Quote
The person I referred to as "leading the horse to water", was TS. He did say "I would be handing much of it out on a silver platter", so why complicate things?Yes, that would be 1 ambulance in real time, person on life support went to UCLA, only ambulance photo done another day, and a few good FBI agents helped with the operation because they've been carrying out a sting. They probably continued giving this then deceased patient resuscitation efforts long past normal times because they were told it was Michael Jackson. And MJ was flying.
Gina
Quote
I also agree with those who say those who are not in the know are under the influence of the power of suggestion. But for an observing man the power of suggestion is not convincing enough though. Like you can tell me it's black when I see it with my own eyes it is white. There has to be confusion for the power of suggestion to work.Also if people are super busy working full time, family etc. They simply don’t have time to investigate more than just hear the main news stories. Even 10 years after 911, tons still believe the official story because they don’t look too deeply into things.
Curls
Quote
Could the FBI have instructed paramedics, doctors, coroner (all the people we've suspected as in on it), to tell the stories we've heard under the guise of covering up how MJ really 'died', without them ever having to be told that MJ is alive? Could all these people be 'in on' something top secret, without knowing what exactly?I remember early on in 2009, I saw a re-inactment of MJ being murdered in the bed, by the same ones (CIA, etc. IDK) following the so-called pattern of other “take-outs” they had done, and the video mentioned a few names, possibly Tu-pac. But if these people are the creators of the elaborate hoax stories, why would they go so incredibly far. It would mean that TS works for them as a mis-information agent, and is evil. It’s a theory I thought way back, but just can’t see happening.
Post by: curls on December 12, 2011, 06:24:51 AM
CurlsQuoteCould the FBI have instructed paramedics, doctors, coroner (all the people we've suspected as in on it), to tell the stories we've heard under the guise of covering up how MJ really 'died', without them ever having to be told that MJ is alive? Could all these people be 'in on' something top secret, without knowing what exactly?I remember early on in 2009, I saw a re-inactment of MJ being murdered in the bed, by the same ones (CIA, etc. IDK) following the so-called pattern of other “take-outs” they had done, and the video mentioned a few names, possibly Tu-pac. But if these people are the creators of the elaborate hoax stories, why would they go so incredibly far. It would mean that TS works for them as a mis-information agent, and is evil. It’s a theory I thought way back, but just can’t see happening.
I think you misunderstood me, or I didn't explain very well - probably the latter! Reading it again my post sounds way out there - paramedics etc, in on covering up what they were led to believe was a successful murder with a plausible death scenario. Hmm, seems like just telling them about MJ's hoax would be simpler! Ignore me - I'll go back to my corner and just watch!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 12, 2011, 08:04:41 AM
For how long are we going to "rehears" this investigation about what/who was in the ambulance?!
What are we missing?
IMO all 5 paramedics saw the body. Also Faheen and Amir. And a few people at UCLA. I don't get it how they can all be in.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 12, 2011, 09:32:43 AM
Quote
The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
IMO, the 'key' to figuring out who or what was in the ambulance greatly depends on whether or not ALL, none, or some of the paramedics were in on it. ANYTHING other than a real corpse would require that ALL the paramedics and ALL UCLA staff (that were in contact with the body) were 'in on it' (dummy, nothing, live MJ, living double). If it had been a 'real' emergency (and everything so far points to The Scenario being 'played out' as real as possible...i.e. as if it really was MJ 'dying' or already dead)....then there had to be more people involved at UCLA then just Cooper and Nguyen. The only way, IMO, to avoid having all these unnecessary people in on it would be to have a real body/corpse. Nguyen was supposedly called only AFTER resuscitation efforts had begun in the ER. So IF Cooper was the ONLY one at UCLA that was 'in on it'...and anything other than a real corpse was used...then that would mean that the 'body' was quickly ushered into a private room and the ONLY staff member present would've been Cooper. Not only is this highly unlikely (given the desire to keep it looking 'real')...but it would also raise ALOT of questions with all other staff that weren't in on it (i.e. they'd know that something was definitely 'up' because there's no way only ONE doctor would be working a 'body' in a real emergency). In ANY real emergency, a team of doctors, nurses, etc are present. It's difficult (for me anyway) to think that for the 2+ hours that this 'body' was being 'worked' at UCLA, that the ONLY staff members who saw the 'body' were Cooper and Nguyen. Sure, it's not impossible but IMO it's not plausible IF the goal was to keep it looking like a 'real' emergency.
Back to the paramedics:
TS:
Quote
A third strong point is the nothing theory would require ALL of the paramedics in on the hoax (which nobody has offered even ONE strong point, that I know of, much less two or three). And it would also require ALL of the UCLA staff who worked the situation, to be in on it. Again, why have so many in on it?
Although TS was specifically talking about the 'nothing' theory...the same applies to ANY other theory other than a real corpse. Sure, they could ALL be 'in on it' but we still have yet to come up with any strong points that suggest they all were.
I tend to think that Senneff was 'in on it'...but I'm not sure of the others. IMO, two strong points suggesting that Senneff could be 'in on it' are:
1) he is the one who filled out the (incorrect) paramedic report (that just so happens to 'fit' Alvarez's story)
2) he is the one who went back into the house and back upstairs to the bedroom AFTER the 'body' was loaded into the ambulance (it just seems strange that, in a real emergency, a professionally trained paramedic would need to return to the 'scene' because he 'forgot' some supplies...in a 'real' emergency seconds matter)
The problem I have with excluding the other paramedics as being 'in on it' is that none of them testified (other than Senneff and Blount)...so we don't have any 'evidence' to analyze coming directly from them. Blount is 'tricky' to figure out because (if we believe Sharon Sydney's story---which I would take with a gallon of salt considering she believes MJ was kidnapped and is being used as a 'music slave' :?), he didn't recognize the 'body' as being MJ. He then changed his 'story' on the witness stand to say he did recognize MJ right away. Not sure if we can logically deduce anything conclusively with that (i.e. there are several possibilities, including that Sydney's story is hogwash).
The other things that trip me up with the other paramedics NOT being 'in on it' is that they supposedly sat there and waited while Senneff returned into the house. Would they not have found it odd and/or told him to leave the stuff behind cause they have to go? The other thing is the ambulance backing out at a snail's pace. In a real emergency, wouldn't this also be 'odd' behavior/actions of professionally trained EMT's? It could suggest that the driver was also 'in on it'...but wouldn't it raise questions with the paramedics that weren't 'in on it' (i.e. wouldn't they find the backing out slowly as 'odd' given it was supposedly a real emergency)?
So...I'm still stuck on how many paramedics were actually 'in on it'. I tend to believe that the answer to that is NOT that they were ALL 'in on it'...nor that NONE were 'in on it'...it makes more sense (to me) that at least one, but possibly more, were in on it (with Senneff being the top contender of being 'in on it'). But either way, unless they were ALL in on it, then none of the other theories make sense (i.e. there would have to have been a real corpse).
IF we can somehow conclude (with two or three strong points) that ALL the paramedics AND several UCLA staff (other than Cooper and Nguyen) were 'in on it', then any of the other theories are valid (i.e. dummy, nothing, live MJ, living double). The problem is that, to date, we have been unable to 'prove' this. That could mean that we're missing something OR that we just don't have/know all the 'pieces' yet (possibly intentionally) OR it could mean that there isn't two or three strong points because they weren't ALL 'in on it'.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: paula-c on December 12, 2011, 10:19:49 AM
Anyone who has been the person who arrive at the UCLA arrived dead, there is no IV of serum or medication
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ivcomp10.jpg)
My question, why a person who is between life and death has no IV?, Or there was nothing in that stretcher or the person was dead arrive at the hospital
Post by: bec on December 12, 2011, 01:29:11 PM
How is a person receiving resuscitation efforts for over 2 hours on the day of June 25, 2009, different from the other circumstances? All of the other situations sound much like the events that unfolded at UCLA on June 25, 2009.
The doctors and paramedics who testified about working on a body, don't exist? Hmmm...
No one is getting bent out of shape, but it seems you are for no reason at all. I'm not sure what part of TS' posts you interpret as 'nothing or MJ went to UCLA'. Again, you nor anyone else have provided evidence against the corpse theory.
The person I referred to as "leading the horse to water", was TS. He did say "I would be handing much of it out on a silver platter", so why complicate things?
I have pages and weeks and months and years of reasons, I'm sorry you can't remember them all but I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum. Do a search on my posts before you disrespect me and say I have no reasons.
Beyond the paramedics and the 2 UCLA doc's, people have a problem with any theory other then the real corpse because of mystical, metaphorical, presumed "people" who worked on the body. Not the paramedics and the two Dr's, no they are not the problem, the other people, invariably is brought up. What people? Well people at the ER; the nurses, the assistants, anyone who would have come into contact with "the body", you know, those people. Assumed people. None of these "people" testified or gave a statement or came forward or talked to media or did an interview. Where are they? And since they don't really exist except in the imagination or presumptions, why are they the deciding factor? I call it hearsay, gossip, and the ever-to-be-abhorred ASSumption, and I don't think it's wise to let the entire thing rest upon their metaphorical existance.
The illusion doesn't have to be that complicated. Only the media and US (general public) need to be fooled in order for this to work.
I think we over think a great deal when it comes to this part. I think in reality it was 100% more simple then this. But whatever. I'm just a death hoax lunatic.
Ps. Suzy, if you got the impression those circumstances with resuscitation efforts were the same as the alleged circumstances on 6/25, then please go back and research again, because I found none that were surrounding a situation with a perfectly healthy man suffering cardiac arrest for unknown reasons, being initially attended to for ~1 hour outside of a hospital environment. All of them were patients suffering cardiac arrest for known reasons with known contributing factors within a hospital environment, under very controlled circumstances. (pps. or in the case of one, a child who fell into ice water and was therefore cooled so rapidly that degeneration had no chance to occur prior to medical attention being applied)
Post by: scorpionchik on December 12, 2011, 02:09:35 PM
In order for a hoax or ANY secret, guarded mission to be accomplished without fail is for AS FEW AS POSSIBLE to be in on it. Some people are going to be involved without even knowing it, but sworn to keep quiet and follow orders less they face consequences. Things that might appear out of the norm is a possibility, however, why is not revealed to them and they are mandated not to ask questions or discuss it. The superiors are the only ones with a need to know agenda. Their staff simply go in, do what is required of them, and get the heck out. No questions asked. That’s the only way something this sensitive will work. The ONLY way.
"In order for a hoax or ANY secret, guarded mission to be accomplished without fail is for AS FEW AS POSSIBLE to be in on it." AGREE (have said 10 times myself), THEREFORE THERE SHOULD BE A BODY, ANYONES who looked like MJ (surgery, disguise, unknown impersonator, etc.) IF NOT MICHAEL himself. Otherwise, this is NOT a hoax per se with serious reasons behind, but A BIG PRANKSTER JOKE WITH NO REASON BUT TO FOOL PEOPLE AND PIONEER NEW TYPE OF LIVE FILM........I DON'T THINK SO. MJ IS NOT A JOKE.
Post by: bec on December 12, 2011, 02:21:29 PM
Post by: scorpionchik on December 12, 2011, 02:27:54 PM
How is a person receiving resuscitation efforts for over 2 hours on the day of June 25, 2009, different from the other circumstances? All of the other situations sound much like the events that unfolded at UCLA on June 25, 2009.
The doctors and paramedics who testified about working on a body, don't exist? Hmmm...
No one is getting bent out of shape, but it seems you are for no reason at all. I'm not sure what part of TS' posts you interpret as 'nothing or MJ went to UCLA'. Again, you nor anyone else have provided evidence against the corpse theory.
The person I referred to as "leading the horse to water", was TS. He did say "I would be handing much of it out on a silver platter", so why complicate things?
I have pages and weeks and months and years of reasons, I'm sorry you can't remember them all but I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum. Do a search on my posts before you disrespect me and say I have no reasons.
Beyond the paramedics and the 2 UCLA doc's, people have a problem with any theory other then the real corpse because of mystical, metaphorical, presumed "people" who worked on the body. Not the paramedics and the two Dr's, no they are not the problem, the other people, invariably is brought up. What people? Well people at the ER; the nurses, the assistants, anyone who would have come into contact with "the body", you know, those people. Assumed people. None of these "people" testified or gave a statement or came forward or talked to media or did an interview. Where are they? And since they don't really exist except in the imagination or presumptions, why are they the deciding factor? I call it hearsay, gossip, and the ever-to-be-abhorred ASSumption, and I don't think it's wise to let the entire thing rest upon their metaphorical existance.
The illusion doesn't have to be that complicated. Only the media and US (general public) need to be fooled in order for this to work.
"The illusion doesn't have to be that complicated. Only the media and US (general public) need to be fooled in order for this to work."
I think you misunderstood La Toya and took her words directly as if it is an illusion. She meant watching Illusion to get the movie content, not illusion word itself. What people, general public of the US do you tink Michael would FOOL? His fans and not fans? I see you are completely lost in your fantastic imaginations hon. Are we talking about a hoax or illusion. I thought it was hoax with serious problems beyond curtain. That's what we have considered. But you are saying magic, illusion, David Copperfield tricks to fool the world. It's too much.
Post by: bec on December 12, 2011, 02:45:09 PM
I see you are completely lost in your fantastic imaginations hon.That may be. I will find out sooner or later.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 12, 2011, 03:23:30 PM
For example that Brad paramedic, or Goodwin - they don't exist?
Post by: Grace on December 12, 2011, 04:11:24 PM
In a different meaning, cardiac arrest is a very safe way to disappear from life - and be it "only" for a near-death-experience. (We discussed the atropine theory quite a while ago.)
Some medical statements:
A 15 minute interruption from blood supply will cause a brain to die.
So if we discuss how long a flatline / asystole could be existing and still bear the possibility of a "dead man walking again", we have to count minutes if not seconds and not hours.
Some statistics about cardiac arrest:
California is#3 in ranking of states as to numbers of cardiac arrest deaths (after New York and Florida).
According to a study executed in Los Angeles in 2005, survival rate for an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest without any bystander CPR is 1%. Neurologically intact survival is 1.4%
The rate of bystander cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) for our population was 28%, for which the overall
survival rate was 2.1%. The survival rate for patients with witnessed arrests and bystander CPR was
3.2%. Among patients with no bystander CPR, the survival rate was 1.0%.
www.paramedicduquebec.org/documents/care-la.pdf (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/www.paramedicduquebec.org/documents/care-la.pdf)
It is not a matter of how long CPR is being applied to make a patient survive.
It is a matter that CPR is applied immediately and ideally an automated electric defibrillator is being used when the patient is not flatlined.
It is a fact that brain damage will start just minutes after blood and oxygen supply have stopped.
The chances of survival of a cardiac arrest are down to 10% after 10 minutes.
Quote
- More than 295,000 Americans die each year of SCA.
- That's a life every 2 minutes, or nearly 1000 SCA related deaths each day.
- This number is greater than the number of deaths each year from breast cancer, lung cancer, stroke, or AIDS. [/l][/l]
- http://www.stopcardiacarrest.org/make-a-difference/how-sca-impacts-you (http://www.stopcardiacarrest.org/make-a-difference/how-sca-impacts-you)Quote
The odds of surviving cardiac arrest after getting CPR in a hospital are slim and have not improved in more than a decade, a big Medicare study concludes. Only about 18 percent of such patients live long enough to leave the hospital, researchers found. Blacks fared worse than whites — a disparity only partly explained by more of them being treated in hospitals that did a poorer job of CPR.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31686155/ns/health-heart_health/t/few-survive-cardiac-arrest-even-cpr/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31686155/ns/health-heart_health/t/few-survive-cardiac-arrest-even-cpr/)Quote• The life you save with CPR is mostly likely to be a loved one.
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/WhatisCPR/CPRFactsandStats/CPR-%20Statistics_UCM_307542_Article.jsp (http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAndECC/WhatisCPR/CPRFactsandStats/CPR-%20Statistics_UCM_307542_Article.jsp)
• Four out of five cardiac arrests happen at home.
• Statistically speaking, if called on to administer CPR in an emergency, the life you save is likely to be someone at home: a child, a spouse, a parent or a friend.
• African-Americans are almost twice as likely to experience cardiac arrest at home, work or in another public location than Caucasians, and their survival rates are twice as poor as for Caucasians.Quote"Over the course of three days, out-of-hospital cardiac arrest claims as many lives in the U.S. as the September 11 attacks," Dr. Ewy said.
http://www.physorg.com/pdf177599075.pdf (http://www.physorg.com/pdf177599075.pdf)
"[...] If we can get more people to act, more patients who were on the brink of death will be walking out of the hospital neurologically intact."QuoteAccording to the American Heart Association (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4481), only about 5% of people experiencing cardiac arrest with no immediate intervention survive the trip to the hospital.
http://www.bookofodds.com/Accidents-Death/Articles/A0393-The-Odds-a-Defibrillator-will-Bring-a-Heart-Victim-Back-to-Life (http://www.bookofodds.com/Accidents-Death/Articles/A0393-The-Odds-a-Defibrillator-will-Bring-a-Heart-Victim-Back-to-Life)QuoteWhile the heart is asystolic, there is no blood flow to the brain unless CPR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation) or internal cardiac massage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_cardiac_massage) (when the chest is opened and the heart is manually compressed) is performed, and even then it is a small amount. After many emergency treatments have been applied but the heart is still unresponsive, it is time to consider pronouncing the patient dead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead). Even in the rare case that a rhythm reappears, if asystole has persisted for fifteen minutes or more the brain will have been deprived of oxygen long enough to cause brain death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asystole)
This is what needs to be done when a CA occurs:
(flatline / asystole: no defibrillator / not shockable)
(http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/112/24_suppl/IV-58/F1.large.jpg)
Some stories about bringing SCA patients back to life:QuoteAmy Moore went into cardiac arrest on September 14 and was pronounced dead, but was later brought back to life by doctors. The 38-year-old mother says she has since slowed down a bit to enjoy the simple things in life -- like coloring with her children, Lexi and Chase, and going to her son's little league game with her husband.
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=7779566 (http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=7779566)
"We were always on the go," Moore said. "It's crazy; I can't believe that I almost lost that, that quick, with no warning."
Moore says she doesn't remember the day she, without warning, collapsed at work after suffering sudden cardiac death.
Her heart stopped beating for at least 15 minutes before she was revived and eventually flown to UNC Hospitals.
"Everything that I know is hearsay from everybody I know," Moore said. "The pictures of me with the tubes and everything, it's hard for me to believe."
A quick response from paramedics gave her a chance to live and UNC doctors induced hypothermia, hoping to minimize the damage to her brain. "When they tell me I was frozen and how long I was frozen, and then they had to thaw me out, I didn't even know that that kind of stuff was possible," Moore said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=ICODRFoWZkw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=ICODRFoWZkw)
We were told, UCLA would be a hospital "raising the dead" - thanks to Dr. Buckberg.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-07-01-ucla-hospital_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-07-01-ucla-hospital_N.htm)
However, Dr. Buckberg was not involved in Michael's "case".
Still I find the "tick tock tick tock" time theme quite interesting in Michael's new album "Immortal".
Timing was and is essential in this disappearance and as indicated in the articles above, it is important to count seconds and minutes and not hours when it comes to a cardiac arrest.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 12, 2011, 04:47:25 PM
I don't think you are completely understanding much of the information we have been given. I don't need to re-read a theory you endlessly reiterate without any supporting evidence again. Everything supporting what you want to believe has been debunked, so where is the supporting evidence? You are also avoiding the attempt at trying to debunk the corpse theory, with EVIDENCE. So, can I suggest you read this thread again, and take into consideration the SERIOUS reasons for this "Illusion"? Or is that a hoax to you? You seem to ignore evidence and facts behind this hoax that don't fit in to what you want to believe.
And how are the doctors not a "problem"? There is no proof they know anything about the hoax, so the body would have fooled them too, along with what TS said would be "ALL of the UCLA staff". Where is the proof the hospital was empty and staff were not around? People in the hospital that day who have proof they were there, can testify to the fact that there were many people inside the hospital that day close to where MJ would have been taken.
Again, you are over complicating things. The details of those other events with flatlined patients don't matter (how they developed cardiac arrest or when CPR was applied etc.); only the part where a person who has flatlined (or considered D.O.A.) and received hours of resuscitation efforts performed on them is the important part. That is what is said to have happened on June 25, and that is what you keep brushing off as "what they wouldn't do" because they wouldn't work on dead person for that long. Clearly, they would and they have depending on what "dead" means to you; in this case *after they have flatlined* is the point.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 12, 2011, 04:50:55 PM
Post by: bec on December 12, 2011, 05:05:42 PM
@bec you believe people who didn't testify don't exist?
For example that Brad paramedic, or Goodwin - they don't exist?
The point is there are direct witness statements, second hand information, and contrived assumptions. This debate is hung up on the concern that metaphorical people (people who exist only in the land of logical assumptions) would have contact with a body, IF things went as those who made statements attest, and SOMETHING must exist to satisfy THOSE PEOPLE.
If we throw out what we are told and only go with what we know, there is no need for a body, dead or otherwise. It doesn't have to be that complicated. Everyone is jumping to conclusions or taking people's word for things. We almost have to assume Dr. Cooper and Nyugen are in on it, yes? The paramedics too? At least two of them certainly. Then why do we assume that their statements are accurate and why wouldn't they just be scripted? Who says anything at all got worked on in the ER that day? We are assuming something got worked on in the ER that day simply because the ambulance went from Carrolwood to UCLA and that's what "they" say. And after we assume that, then we say that there HAD to be a corpse just to satisfy that ASSUMED ASPECT of the story. You follow me?
The photo is fake, it was staged within ambulance 71 prior to 6/25/09. That means the paramedics are in on it. Once the paramedics are in on it that means that Ambulance 71 and the LAFD are in on it, at least a higher up who's handing down the authority (MJ had access to their ambulance in order to stage a "death" photograph in advance). Once you have LAFD cooperating, why is it so difficult to accept that the same is true at UCLA? It is a domino effect and this is where the FBI comes in. The LAFD and firehouse 71 aren't going to just agree to help out MJ on some secret hoax mission. No way, right? They had to receive clearance from a higher authority. That higher authority IS the FBI. Once you have the FBI handing down orders and clearance, there's really nothing that can't be accomplished.
The only people who NEEDED to be fooled (who wouldn't be satisfied with an aspect of "just following orders") is the media and through them, the general public. That's the goal, fool the media who will in turn fool the public. They (we) are the subjects of the hoax. The SHOW on 6/25/09 was designed to fool US, and us alone.
All Cooper and Nyugen have to tell their regular staff (and really just Cooper, Nyugen said she was called in to consult n assist, that doesn't require her full staff to attend, Cooper's staff would presumably be already in attendance, perfectly acceptable situation for Nyugen's staff to accept) is that they were called in to attend a high profile VIP that required a decoy or equivalent and they are not authorized to divulge details. Period. No explanation as to why her regulars weren't called in, nothing else required an explanation.
Everyone at any job is familiar with the Need To Know basis and when they aren't in the Need category they butt out. It's a professional environment. You don't ask questions because it isn't your job to know or care unless your supervisor assigns you to know or care.
I think the assumptions of the details are getting, and have been getting carried away into a string of assumptions built one on top of the other into an assumptive chain that is now standing in the way of that which was our assigned task of determining who or what went to UCLA from Carrolwood in the ambulance on 6/25/09.
What happened inside UCLA is completely irrelevant to who or what arrived there in the ambulance from Carrolwood on 6/25/09 because it is all based on witness testimony (notoriously unreliable) and contrived assumptions based on such. The only FACTS are 1) that an ambulance traveled from Carrolwood and arrived at UCLA, and 2) a sheet covered body shape on a stretcher emerged from the roof that afternoon and was loaded into a helicopter.
Post by: bec on December 12, 2011, 05:07:31 PM
Bec, would you like to point me to what I have said that is "disrespectful"? Because I don't think I said anything of the sort, but I'm sorry you took it that way.
I don't think you are completely understanding much of the information we have been given. I don't need to re-read a theory you endlessly reiterate without any supporting evidence again. Everything supporting what you want to believe has been debunked, so where is the supporting evidence? You are also avoiding the attempt at trying to debunk the corpse theory, with EVIDENCE. So, can I suggest you read this thread again, and take into consideration the SERIOUS reasons for this "Illusion"? Or is that a hoax to you? You seem to ignore evidence and facts behind this hoax that don't fit in to what you want to believe.
And how are the doctors not a "problem"? There is no proof they know anything about the hoax, so the body would have fooled them too, along with what TS said would be "ALL of the UCLA staff". Where is the proof the hospital was empty and staff were not around? People in the hospital that day who have proof they were there, can testify to the fact that there were many people inside the hospital that day close to where MJ would have been taken.
Again, you are over complicating things. The details of those other events with flatlined patients don't matter (how they developed cardiac arrest or when CPR was applied etc.); only the part where a person who has flatlined (or considered D.O.A.) and received hours of resuscitation efforts performed on them is the important part. That is what is said to have happened on June 25, and that is what you keep brushing off as "what they wouldn't do" because they wouldn't work on dead person for that long. Clearly, they would and they have depending on what "dead" means to you; in this case *after they have flatlined* is the point.
Yup, you're right. I'm a delusional idiot. Sorry to junk up your cyberspace. I'll concede the debate to your superior intellect and investigative skills, Suzy7.
Post by: Adi on December 12, 2011, 05:36:21 PM
Quote
Can anyone come up with the longest time that UCLA has worked a flat-lined patient, before calling the death?
I'm pretty sure that IF a corpse was used in this, they wouldn't want to have brought back to life a dead person they are trying to pass off as Michael Jackson......not a good look. The corpse would have needed to be dead long enough not to be resuscitated.
The question is: was this question a hint from TS to a corpse being used? or a hint that a corpse was not used?
smiley_spider
Post by: MaryK on December 12, 2011, 06:00:43 PM
So why did TS ask this question ?QuoteCan anyone come up with the longest time that UCLA has worked a flat-lined patient, before calling the death?
I'm pretty sure that IF a corpse was used in this, they wouldn't want to have brought back to life a dead person they are trying to pass off as Michael Jackson......not a good look. The corpse would have needed to be dead long enough not be resuscitated.
The question is: was this question a hint from TS to a corpse being used? or a hint that a corpse was not used?
smiley_spider
Doctors would probably start working on a patient with an ECG flatline, but probably not on a patient with a EEG flatline (braindead person). So a corpse or a person who had been on life support would not fool the doctors I guess....so I don´t really believe that a braindead human being was "used".
Of course I don´t know if my assumption is correct against the background of medical science.
Maybe somebody working in the medical field can comment on that?
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 12, 2011, 06:17:48 PM
@ scoprion. i get what you are saying abt the movie title v's content that latoya made reference to. but prior to that she also actually said "its all illusions"
Post by: Suzy7 on December 12, 2011, 06:19:01 PM
Adi, exactly my point. If we take all of the evidence into consideration, the corpse theory would answer that question as to what direction the hint was pointing in. The general consensus in this thread also points to the same theory.
But I guess everyone could be in on it, and nothing was used at all because this is just a hoax for entertainment. So perhaps that's the answer. *eye roll*
Post by: Suzy7 on December 12, 2011, 06:34:33 PM
Post by: scorpionchik on December 12, 2011, 06:57:52 PM
"The photo is fake, it was staged within ambulance 71 prior to 6/25/09. That means the paramedics are in on it".
NO, BEC, YOU ARE MISTAKEN THAT FAKE PHOTO MEANS PARAMEDICS/AMB. 71 FIRE DEPT. CERTAINLY ARE ON IT.
FAKE PHOTO CLEARLY AND SIMPLY CAN ALSO MEAN BEN EVASTAD WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL IN TAKING A PICTURE AND HE MADE UP ONE THROUGH PHOTOSHOP TO SELL IT. REMEMBER HE SAID" WHEREVER MICHAEL IS, THERE IS A MONEY TO MAKE". OF COURSE HE WILL NEVER ADMIT THAT HE FOOLED MEDIA AND SOLD PHOTOSHOPPED FOOTAGE.
Post by: bec on December 12, 2011, 07:26:19 PM
@Scorpionchick: how do you figure Ben got access to the interior of ambulance 71 and some paramedics to stage such a pic on his own within hours after the actual event took place? It is the same interior as the real ambulance 71 yet the monitor is not on in the pic when it is clearly on in the video. So not even the background was captured live by Ben. He had to have created the entire pic in Photoshop, that means he needed a pic of the interior of ambulance 71, 2 men dressed as Paramedics with authentic badges, and a pic of MJ from the exact perfect angle, and a layer of the exact background outside Carrolwood including the red car that was present to put it all together and he had only hours to do it all in. The pic was sold to the magazine on 6/25/09 so how did he work so fast?
Post by: paula-c on December 12, 2011, 08:32:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GYgN5--T2A&feature=player_embedded
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21650.msg378849#msg378849
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GYgN5--T2A&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Post by: TS_comments on December 12, 2011, 09:26:34 PM
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
Post by: Snoopy71 on December 12, 2011, 09:30:40 PM
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
bow/ Hallelujah!
This place was coming apart at the seams.
Glad to see you are well TS :mrgreen:
We'll keep the light on for ya' ;)
Post by: MichaelsAngel on December 12, 2011, 09:50:02 PM
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
Glad you're back! bearhug
Post by: RK on December 12, 2011, 09:52:51 PM
Post by: Adi on December 12, 2011, 10:28:06 PM
bounce/ bounce/ bounce/
Post by: BeTheChange on December 12, 2011, 10:46:45 PM
Hmmm...in the middle of an important project huh? Any chance we can get a snippet of it?
Looking forward to next week bounce/
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: scorpionchik on December 12, 2011, 11:13:48 PM
@Suzy, I'm not accusing you of anything. I am saying those things seriously. I feel quite like a lunatic these days.
@Scorpionchick: how do you figure Ben got access to the interior of ambulance 71 and some paramedics to stage such a pic on his own within hours after the actual event took place? It is the same interior as the real ambulance 71 yet the monitor is not on in the pic when it is clearly on in the video. So not even the background was captured live by Ben. He had to have created the entire pic in Photoshop, that means he needed a pic of the interior of ambulance 71, 2 men dressed as Paramedics with authentic badges, and a pic of MJ from the exact perfect angle, and a layer of the exact background outside Carrolwood including the red car that was present to put it all together and he had only hours to do it all in. The pic was sold to the magazine on 6/25/09 so how did he work so fast?
Ok then, in that case, Michael Jackson was taken to UCLA or Michael look like hospice patient. That's all we needed to prove- SOME BODY WAS TAKEN TO UCLA. In this case, paramedics need not to be in hoax nor even doctors. Simple and exactly what I have been telling.
Sounds more reasonable when a few people involved in hoax rather than as you say half of LA city authority and residents are in hoax.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 13, 2011, 01:05:35 AM
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
What a nice surprise!! bearhug
Post by: heartwarrior on December 13, 2011, 01:10:02 AM
Post by: curls on December 13, 2011, 01:43:41 AM
Post by: Blueberry on December 13, 2011, 01:58:25 AM
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
Hi TS and welcome back! :mrgreen:
Hope your project is getting tremendous! penguin/ I anticipate that level 7 may be finished on December 21 (12/21). Wouldn't that be awesome? Yes, that day is on a Wednesday - "See you next Wednesday"
I hope I will see you next Wednesday.....
Much L.O.V.E. and many hugs to you TS and everybody else bearhug
Post by: applehead250609 on December 13, 2011, 02:29:12 AM
Quote
bec
Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
« Reply #1825 on: Today at 03:29:11 AM »
I have pages and weeks and months and years of reasons, I'm sorry you can't remember them all but I'm not going to repeat myself ad infinitum. Do a search on my posts before you disrespect me and say I have no reasons.
Beyond the paramedics and the 2 UCLA doc's, people have a problem with any theory other then the real corpse because of mystical, metaphorical, presumed "people" who worked on the body. Not the paramedics and the two Dr's, no they are not the problem, the other people, invariably is brought up. What people? Well people at the ER; the nurses, the assistants, anyone who would have come into contact with "the body", you know, those people. Assumed people. None of these "people" testified or gave a statement or came forward or talked to media or did an interview. Where are they? And since they don't really exist except in the imagination or presumptions, why are they the deciding factor? I call it hearsay, gossip, and the ever-to-be-abhorred ASSumption, and I don't think it's wise to let the entire thing rest upon their metaphorical existance.
The illusion doesn't have to be that complicated. Only the media and US (general public) need to be fooled in order for this to work.
I think we over think a great deal when it comes to this part. I think in reality it was 100% more simple then this. But whatever. I'm just a death hoax lunatic.
Ps. Suzy, if you got the impression those circumstances with resuscitation efforts were the same as the alleged circumstances on 6/25, then please go back and research again, because I found none that were surrounding a situation with a perfectly healthy man suffering cardiac arrest for unknown reasons, being initially attended to for ~1 hour outside of a hospital environment. All of them were patients suffering cardiac arrest for known reasons with known contributing factors within a hospital environment, under very controlled circumstances. (pps. or in the case of one, a child who fell into ice water and was therefore cooled so rapidly that degeneration had no chance to occur prior to medical attention being applied)
Bec I'm totally with you :) !!! And if you think that you are the only death hoax lunatic you are wrong, lolol/ lcause I'm also :) !!!!
Post by: applehead250609 on December 13, 2011, 02:33:06 AM
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
Just a shot note from my part also then: OH BOY,not again :? :mrgreen: !!!! Take you time TS :roll: ,we are doing just fine here,thank you :) !!!!
Post by: applehead250609 on December 13, 2011, 02:54:39 AM
As we have spoken about federal agents, i think it is good to see this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GYgN5--T2A&feature=player_embedded
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21650.msg378849#msg378849
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GYgN5--T2A&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Thank you Paula :) I saw that video also,and I was like WOW :shock: !!!
Post by: emulik on December 13, 2011, 03:13:47 AM
Post by: simalves on December 13, 2011, 03:44:01 AM
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
Thank you TS. My prayers and thoughts are with you :)
@Front waiting to hear from you too.......
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 13, 2011, 06:15:47 AM
We look forward to your return.
Post by: Billie J on December 13, 2011, 06:45:20 AM
Post by: Sarahli on December 13, 2011, 08:58:48 AM
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
(http://www.emoticons.free.fr/smileys/Emotion-Happy/cool3.gif)
Quote
I'm in the middle of an important project.
Another Hoax project maybe?? lolol/
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 13, 2011, 02:20:59 PM
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
See? This is why some of you guys shouldn't ASSume things, and start calling him a coward and a liar. :?
Thanks for keeping us updated, TS bearhug
Post by: Sarahli on December 13, 2011, 02:22:56 PM
165 = 1+6+5 = 12
12+12+12 = 9 = completion
TS, is it a coincidence??? suspicious//
Post by: SpeedDemon1987 on December 13, 2011, 03:06:46 PM
So TS posted his 165th post on 12/12?
165 = 1+6+5 = 12
12+12+12 = 9 = completion
TS, is it a coincidence??? suspicious//
Hmmm...
May I add that in Australia it says TS posted at 02:26:34 PM?
suspicious//
Post by: MJonmind on December 13, 2011, 03:38:18 PM
So TS posted his 165th post on 12/12?
165 = 1+6+5 = 12
12+12+12 = 9 = completion
TS, is it a coincidence??? suspicious//
Good spot Sarahli, but 9 could indicate many other things as well!
http://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu9.php (http://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu9.php)
He's in the MIDDLE of an important project. But the entire hoax is made up of many projects/pieces. If MJ Bams near the end of 2012, that's a lot of empty canvas to fill for a guy like him who says he loves to create and never stops working. I find this exciting, because it means there's much more coming! And I can hardly wait! It gets better all the time! Thank you Michael!
Quote
TS Quote from: GINAFELICIA on November 28, 2011, 03:59:20 PMmoonwalk_/Quote@Adi thank you for posting this from above. Reading it again I think TS is an eccentric person who has all the time in the world at his disposal
Don't I wish! bounce/
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on December 13, 2011, 03:38:58 PM
Is the important project you mentioned , related to film?
Post by: PureLove on December 13, 2011, 06:44:48 PM
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
I bet you are going to be surprised when you read some of the posts. And you will probably feel like doing this (http://eddiedeguzman.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/cartoon-bang-head-jpg.gif?w=500) :lol: geek/
Important project? suspicious// Are we going to hear more snippets or are you working on Lundon's Bridge or is it something else? :mrgreen:
Missed you and I love you TS. bearhug
Post by: MissG on December 13, 2011, 07:46:04 PM
Is "part 2" of the Murray documentary is out. Check from 12:17. I am waiting as well for that "part 2" I think it would be interesting to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1GvgSLxiUc&feature=related
Post by: Suzy7 on December 13, 2011, 07:57:28 PM
Paula those videos by MsFlyingFairy are great in addressing some of the connections and the "why's" of the hoax. Hopefully some will watch those and better understand the "why's and how's".
Scorpionchik, you do realize if the LAFD are in on the hoax, than the paramedics seen in the ambulance photo would be too? Bec explained it well, as it's really impossible for 0 paramedics to not be in the know.
Speaking of bec, you aren't a lunatic we all just understand things differently; clearly.
Post by: Dontwalkaway on December 13, 2011, 08:17:51 PM
LOVE
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 14, 2011, 12:13:38 AM
TS, has your project something to do with a comic? :D
Is "part 2" of the Murray documentary is out. Check from 12:17. I am waiting as well for that "part 2" I think it would be interesting to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1GvgSLxiUc&feature=related
There was a part 2? Thank you for the link.
Post by: use_your_illusion on December 14, 2011, 03:43:31 AM
TS has specifically stated more then once in the past that the return is dependent, at least in part, on us few hoaxers, and how much we understand the reasons for the hoax. Just sayin'.
@BEC
you have mentioned this twice. i have mentioned this twice. i am sure others have too. we really need to look at TIAI 1-7 again...
this may be interactive, just as was the courtcase.... could it be us, the very believers of this DH that are holding up a BAM?
i make reference to previous quote....
But how much is dependent on us?...do you think the actual time of the BAM is dependent on the hoaxers or MJ having a BAM take place at all is dependent on the hoaxers?...I just don't know if it really is dependent on the believers like TS said, I mean if MJ wants to do something he'll do it, or find another way to do it if it doesn't quite work out to plan..what does he want from the believers?
(Off Topic) By the way Aussie, do you think that photo of Carl Williams is real or fake?
Post by: Adi on December 14, 2011, 05:05:57 AM
Because of all that has happened this past 2.5 years I have re-read them with a different perspective, mindset and knowledge.
They have really given my faith in Michael, what he hopes to achieve and his message a HUGE jolt again :)
respect/
Post by: applehead250609 on December 16, 2011, 03:20:11 PM
Quote
TS_comments
Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
« Reply #1844 on: December 13, 2011, 11:26:34 AM »
Just a short note ...
Haven't been here on the forum much since 11-30; and I have not had time to read the threads. I'm in the middle of an important project. But I will be back next week sometime to catch up on the threads, and work on finishing level 7.
typing/
Today during my work I suddenly thought at you TS.I was just thinking about this hoax and what kind of project are you doing,cause I mean what could be more important than the level 7 :idea: !!!! I thought also at what is happening to us and that something is not right.The time is too long and the CONTRADICTION WAY TOO BIG :?!!!!!
After I finished to watch Michael's daughter interview,suddenly the tears started to flow on my face.To see this wonderful and humble girl,standing right there,and talking the way she did,it was almost a shock for me.I know she is humble,I know she is normal but when I think at what was told to us by the media all this years,I still can't believe it.Don't get me wrong,cause I'm not talking about what you all think,no way.One thing is clear to me,that if Michael were here today,the situation would be totally different .Michael would be still "the freak" and his kids still the freak's kids, and nothing more.I usually look at comments done by people who wach the videos on youtube,and I was very happy to see that all the comments were SUPER Positive :),they all like Paris.
During this 2.5 years of hoax,we learned alot about all kind of things:about Michael's family and friends,about his suppose enemies, about history,about politics,about math,about music business,about movies,abour religion ,about nature,about charities ,any many,many more.In the end I and maybe you all realised that in fact we don't know anything concrete.Michael "died" and we all wait for him to come back,aka to ressurect :? .Some people believe he died and some believe he didn't,still the life goes on as if nothing happened.Each side believes that they are right.At this point I ask myself,what if it doesen't matter at all if he died or not???? I feel we are missing something here and to BELIEVE or NOT to BELIEVE is in fact about something else.That the hoax we are all experience is just a substitution for something BIGGER :idea: .
I know that maybe what I just wrote above makes no sense but I had to wrote down what I felt,cause otherwise
my head would explode :oops: !!!!
TS if you have time give me a sign,please :mrgreen: :) !!!!!!
Post by: bec on December 16, 2011, 10:03:34 PM
So yes, I still think it's all for entertainment, but please don't patronize me by saying JUST for entertainment (, TS). Entertainment is a powerful venue. Those in it's industry have a entirely unique position of power due to their influence over the demographic. How they chose to use that power (or even use it at all) is up to each individual. Michael is extremely powerful because he understands the influence he has AND he is willing to use it. There will be some big fat lessons learned by the end of this entertainment production... by the media with an inevitable domino effect hitting the general public square between the eyes. If you have been listening to Michael's message for decades this makes crystal clear sense. It's all the same message year in and year out... but people never really GOT it.
Discover the man you never knew... he's been play acting for years. His entire public life was and IS scripted. This ruse; the death hoax for some, TS and TIAI for others, is just a natural extension of the world's greatest entertainer's Standard Operating Procedure. I suppose some might feel fooled when it's said and done, but it's all for love. He loves us, we have to know that... he really really does.
I think Michael plays both sides of the fence, but it's all part of the illusion, part of the showmanship, part of the character that is Michael Jackson. He courts the media and then complains about being hounded and harassed. He professes his adherence to clean, drug free living... and then "dies" of the weirdest drug you ever heard of abusing. His life is and always has been scripted and choreographed by himself, the artist, Michael Jackson, for your entertainment pleasure.
I don't need anyone to agree with me, I just wanted to go back on the record and say no, I haven't changed my mind, moreover, after a couple weeks of reflection and review, my beliefs have been strengthened yet again.
Post by: bec on December 16, 2011, 10:06:23 PM
Post by: MichaelsAngel on December 16, 2011, 11:51:29 PM
He loves us, we have to know that... he really really does.
I agree. Michael has and will always love us. People need to remember that.
Post by: sigh on December 17, 2011, 03:41:00 AM
[...]
I don't need anyone to agree with me, I just wanted to go back on the record and say no, I haven't changed my mind, moreover, after a couple weeks of reflection and review, my beliefs have been strengthened yet again.
I know you don't need it, but I agree with everything you wrote !
Post by: sigh on December 17, 2011, 03:43:46 AM
Ps. You really think he's up there at the podium at the O2 GIGGLING because there's a bunch of bad guys hell bent out to get him? Come on.
He** NO ! :)
Post by: MJonmind on December 17, 2011, 06:02:26 AM
Quote
TS on: November 25, 2011, 01:34:11 AM
And finally, once the how’s of the hoax become clear, then the why’s of the hoax will become even clearer than before. Understanding the why’s is very important—not only before BAM, but especially after. And if people who come to this forum after the BAM can see that we have a good solid coherent theory on the how’s, then they will be much more likely to believe that we also have the correct understanding of the why’s.
Applehead, TS and Front both talk about Bam as if it is very real, not metaphorical. We still have a whole year of Action Jackson, to experience and thoroughly examine, connect dots, and go down many more side rabbit holes.
/woohoo/
Post by: sandythyme on December 17, 2011, 06:37:25 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 17, 2011, 12:17:19 PM
Or is it possible that MJ "faked" the threats to his life and fooled FBI? Played the potential victim and FBI believed it?
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 17, 2011, 01:56:44 PM
@bec it could be all for entertainment, maybe, but in this case how he convinced FBI to get involved?
Or is it possible that MJ "faked" the threats to his life and fooled FBI? Played the potential victim and FBI believed it?
She didn't say it was all for entertainment.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 17, 2011, 02:06:02 PM
So yes, I still think it's all for entertainment.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 17, 2011, 02:41:36 PM
So yes, I still think it's all for entertainment.
But she said it wasn't just for entertainment, which it isn't. That is why FBI would be involved.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on December 17, 2011, 04:35:40 PM
In this post, I’m going to be giving further evidence about one of the reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital (risk of being murdered). However, the information in this post will go beyond just that; it will also help us to wrap up 7b, and even help us a lot in 7c.
The question here is whether MJ has been facing a real murder danger (at any time, not just 6-25-09), and therefore was his artwork was designed to portray this real danger through entertainment? Or was the danger just an artistic creation, designed merely for the sake of entertainment? Once we understand the “how’s” of the hoax, the answer to this question should be very clear. However, even before completing 7b, I want to show many reasons why this danger is very real; then the rest of 7b should be relatively easy to understand.
First and foremost are MJ’s beliefs about the Bible, the NWO, and the end of the world. I have already documented this significantly, so I won’t repeat it here (see Update #1, for example). For MJ, these beliefs are not just entertainment; they are very real. There is a real battle between good and evil in this world; it has existed for thousands of years, but it gets much more intense near the end of the world. And anyone who does not take sides with the evil powers, especially if they are rich and/or famous, will become prime targets of these evil powers (often referred to as the Illuminati).
On the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
For those who have been following the tweets from Paris, you know that she has tweeted several things about “secret societies”, the Illuminati, the eye-pyramid (with the Army of Love cutting the strings), the warning about the New World Order, etc. And MJ himself did the music video, while standing beside the NWO all-seeing eye {at 1:05, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q)}. And he has also talked about a “conspiracy”, more than once.
Are all these things just for art and entertainment, with no real threat? And even IF there was no real threat before such warnings were given: would not the warnings themselves generate a real danger? Would MJ put himself and his children in the cross-hairs of real danger, just for the sake of creating entertainment about a threat that was not real—that is, not real until the entertainment was created?
Can anyone read La Toya’s book (Starting Over), and come to the conclusion that Jack Gordon was not a real threat in her life—that she fabricated the stories, pictures of bruises, etc, just for entertainment? And if this was real, and not made up by La Toya, then it should be clear that the threats against MJ were just as real; she talks about the threats against both of them (herself and MJ) in the same context, and sometimes the same people behind the threats. In fact, it went beyond mere threats; when it came to the molestation charges, it was these same people who “got him [MJ]” (according to Jack Gordon).
“Latoya and Frank Cascio also wrote about 9/11 in their books!!! WHY do they brings this horrible attacks in their books, related to Mj, this is what I don't understand and it really disturbs me” {applehead250609, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959)}.
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
Speaking of entertainment: The Illusionist (which La Toya pleaded with us to watch, and “read between the lines”) is a good example of entertainment WHICH PORTRAYS A REAL DANGER! There was a real enemy, with a real intent to kill the person who “died”; and the plan of the illusionist included not only saving the life of the potential victim, but also exposing the criminal.
Probably everyone knows this by now, but let me remind you anyway: “Michael Jackson's FBI Files Reveal Death Threats” {http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml)}. Surely the FBI did not make this up, just to go along with MJ’s artistic creation of some imaginary enemy. The FBI was also involved with investigating La Toya’s situation (Jack Gordon, etc); during level 5, I already quoted important excerpts from her book {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0)}. So I think we have every valid reason to believe that the FBI is helping MJ in the death hoax, for more than just movie and entertainment purposes; they are helping to create the illusion, in order to expose the criminal.
“1. He just knew! He was famous and rich from the age of 5! The fortune hunters were always after him. He is intuitive! He is God-gifted. He just knows things! 2. He got hints from Elvis who also faked his death! He knew what happened to Elvis all his life because of his celebrity! and that Elvis had also received death threats! 3. He saw what happened to John Lenon and other celebs [MLK, JFK, Lady Di, etc]! he didn't want to wait for that happening to him too!” {SimPattyK, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869)}.
Let me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30).
Nevertheless, even though I have received great opposition from many: I have never received any opposition from the hoax insiders (family, TMZ, etc); quite the opposite, both the family and TMZ have supported TS/TIAI on several occasions {including the recent Too Short article, http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0)}. And this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
I’ve said the following before, but it is worth repeating. This is the only hoax forum that I have ever posted on, and it is also the only hoax forum or website that TMZ ever linked to in their blogroll; this blogroll is no longer on their home page, but it is still on their website and still has a link to our forum on it {http://www.tmz.com/blogroll (http://www.tmz.com/blogroll)}. For a long time, many have thought that TMZ was just another unreliable tabloid media source—that they have merely been playing with hoax believers, and don’t really have any inside information about the hoax. Well, TS has always supported TMZ; and recently, La Toya also supported TMZ: “But there’s more to the story guys, and Harvey knows that; Harvey Levin knows that (don’t you Harvey).” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM)}.
I could cite many more examples, both from TMZ and the family; however, I have already done that many times in the past, so I only added a couple of newer examples here. But I will close with the following, which sums it up in short. The whole world, INCLUDING HOAX BELIEVERS, need to wake up to the reality of the seriousness of the danger—not for the sake of fear and mind-control, as some people have claimed; but rather for the sake of awareness and preparation: forewarned is forearmed!
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on December 17, 2011, 04:40:56 PM
I think the drug theme in Moonwalker could be in reference to mind control programs and how they use drugs to induce the ability to program people. It is my belief that MJ has told a very real story through Moonwalker and the continuation is This Is It in which he is telling us of the dangers again. The below info about the movie helps to tie it all together like a nice christmas package. It is my belief and has been for a while that the reason for the Bad theme is because this was the last time MJ was truly happy. Not long after this era was the first round of allegations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonwalker
Quote
Moonwalker, also known as Michael Jackson: Moonwalker, is an American anthology film released in 1988 by singer Michael Jackson. Rather than featuring one continuous narrative, the film is a collection of short films about Jackson, several of which are long-form music videos from Jackson's Bad album.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_(album)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonwalker#Segments
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095655/synopsis
If the threat (NWO) and warning of EOW was only a figment of TS' imagination and a piece of the ARG to make it more exciting for hoaxers than WHY are there thousands of other people talking about the NWO/EOW? There are thousands of websites, youtube channels/videos dedicated to exposing the NWO agenda. NWO is a blanket term and there are subcategories about the secret societies like Illuminati, Freemasons, Skull and Bones, etc.
The below info is only a miniscule amount of info on the net regarding this subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)#Conspiracy_theories
http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO24XmP1c5E[/youtube]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati
http://www.illuminati-news.com/2007/1010.html
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_illuminati.htm#menu
http://vigilantcitizen.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/theindustryexposed
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iDq0Tdja4A[/youtube]
Post by: Andrea on December 17, 2011, 04:54:46 PM
Awakening the masses to what's really going on in the world is another HUGE aspect.
People need something massive to happen in order to be shaken from their slumber or they'll wake up one day with a chip in their neck and wonder where their "freedom" went but by then it could be too late.
When Michael BAMs, people WILL sit up and take notice and be jolted from their fake reality. It has to happen because if it doesn't, sh*t's gonna get real and nobody will be prepared for it, or even see it coming. And worse, they'll believe what they're told and go along with it.
Post by: SEHF on December 17, 2011, 05:09:35 PM
Post by: paula-c on December 17, 2011, 06:26:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2do-szIHyo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2do-szIHyo[/youtube]
Post by: paula-c on December 17, 2011, 08:54:13 PM
Kai said someone security dismissed. But, who?, no one asked me that in the trial,..None of the employees see Michael when he was being transported only the paramedics as they saw him, on the other hand, upon arrival at UCLA,.. i believe that the said that Murray asked the paramedics cover the face of the patient with a towel, strange concern Murray at a time like thisIn the 0.40 seconds employees leave the house
(http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/_/rsrc/1323860122922/last-news2/2011/decembrie-2011/kaichasemarturie.JPG?height=136&width=200)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZXiLROMZaqI[/youtube]
Post by: bec on December 17, 2011, 11:17:52 PM
Ps. @TS, re: much earlier debate, I don't think things are alright. I'm not in the stern of the ship counting sheep either. I am hyper aware of the slow, progressive erosion of freedom in this country. I believe spreading awareness of this truth will be possible in a domino effect of this hoax and this is part of Michael's agenda. By revealing that he is alive, he will prove media outlets unreliable. He will shock people's sense of reality. It will be the first time that many people discover that what they saw on TV wasn't the truth (a mOment suspends tIme). In a chain reaction of emotions, thousands, if not millions of people will begin to question everything. A seed of doubt with a super fertilizer shot gets planted in the collective consciousness and a major chink in TPTB's armor is removed... the public's trust in the media will be brought to its knees.
@Gina, I believe there is a "key" person at the FBI as TS said, certainly, there has to be. The 333 pages in 7 files released on 12/21 (22nd, real life physical location weather delay) is not a coincidence, so there is at least one key person at the FBI cooperating with Michael. It makes sense anyway, someone had to give approval to LAFD firehouse 71 for their role (and others, see earlier debate). There is a branch of the FBI that handles entertainment productions, you'll recall. FBI involvement past this key person might be as simple as MJ alerted the agency to his project so they don't get involved unnecessarily in the "investigation" into his "death". Sort of like how schools alert the local FD when they do routine fire drills so that time and funds are not wasted with false alarm calls. Just a thought.
Post by: wishingstar on December 18, 2011, 12:59:54 AM
Ben arrive in time to confirm what Kai Chase confirm in his statement, that all the employees were fired before anyone was being transported in the of the ambulance.
Kai said someone security dismissed. But, who?, no one asked me that in the trial,..None of the employees see Michael when he was being transported only the paramedics as they saw him, on the other hand, upon arrival at UCLA,.. i believe that the said that Murray asked the paramedics cover the face of the patient with a towel, strange concern Murray at a time like thisIn the 0.40 seconds employees leave the house
(http://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson/_/rsrc/1323860122922/last-news2/2011/decembrie-2011/kaichasemarturie.JPG?height=136&width=200)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZXiLROMZaqI[/youtube]
Thank you so much for posting this particular video paula....I have looked and looked for it. I had seen just once before and knew of it.....drove me nuts not to find it. I think it shows a lot of interesting things.......perhaps from "the other day"? It's a totally different view from the original ambulance video. Even the see-through-the-crack-in-the-gate portion is much clearer. One thing I noticed too....when Ben shows the cover of the OK rag, they show the birth and death date....they also show 10.26pm........why do they show this? Am I seeing things?
Anyways....I am going to re-watch it and re-watch now that I have it here.....thank you again!!!! You made my night!
Hope everyone is doing well and you are all having a great weekend......
Blessings Always
PS> a couple of things I forgot to ask....
1) the back of LAFD shirts.....do they really read "Los Angeles City" or exactly what is there on the back?
2) you don't suppose......Michael actually walked out, as a "released" staff member...in front of everyone....now that would be bold for sure...but nobody would question it because of the uproar already.
Post by: skyways on December 18, 2011, 01:05:42 AM
Post by: bec on December 18, 2011, 02:00:44 AM
To clarify my last post, perhaps FBI was contacted for approval, alerted to stand by, and so they could stand down; false alarm, pseudo scenario, play-act-ment, by any other name; illusion, ruse, hoax.
One could reason that bringing the FBI in on this would be necessary not only to enlist official departments cooperation but also to insure legality. Considering what we have learned about how the FBI functions internally (little communication between departments), one or two key people being solely responsible for providing MJHD approval and clearance may well be all it takes. Further, this truth legitimizes TS's role(play) here; FBI cooperation sounds so... gansta, doesn't it?
Post by: curls on December 18, 2011, 02:47:01 AM
Ps. @TS, re: much earlier debate, I don't think things are alright. I'm not in the stern of the ship counting sheep either. I am hyper aware of the slow, progressive erosion of freedom in this country. I believe spreading awareness of this truth will be possible in a domino effect of this hoax and this is part of Michael's agenda. By revealing that he is alive, he will prove media outlets unreliable. He will shock people's sense of reality. It will be the first time that many people discover that what they saw on TV wasn't the truth (a mOment suspends tIme). In a chain reaction of emotions, thousands, if not millions of people will begin to question everything. A seed of doubt with a super fertilizer shot gets planted in the collective consciousness and a major chink in TPTB's armor is removed... the public's trust in the media will be brought to its knees.
@bec, I just love what you said here and I think it's even better than this. Many, many people are already aware - from groups like Anonymous to normal, everyday people chatting in staff rooms, street corners and living rooms all over the world. They know things are not right. MJ already has many 'on his side', even though they don't know it yet! Or to put it another way, they have no idea (yet) that Michael Jackson is on their side!
Post by: MJonmind on December 18, 2011, 03:42:21 AM
Sorry, I wrote so much, but I was just musing... smiley_spider
Yes, that video Paula posted (thanks!) shows that the guy through the fence in the blue shirt is clearly not MJ afterall. This reminds me that everything that we have been shown since day 1, is only what MJ, the master designer, has desired/wanted us to see. No more--no less. I believe it was intended for that tiny clip initially to look like MJ standing, there--just as it was intended for the 7-gif at UCLA to look like MJ sitting up on the stretcher. Now 2+ years later we are finding out that MJ was not on that stretcher. Now we see this guy in the yard is not MJ. Isn't it amazing how releasing crucial bits of information at precise points along the hoax way, or throughout history, changes everything. Progressive revelation. It might even look like leaked info, and still be intentional. Information can be intentionally misleading, by whoever has the power--could be good or evil intentions. TS has listed an ARG as one of the purposes of the hoax, perhaps as one of the more fun aspects of it, in which new clues or helps to figure things out, help you go further in the game. Therefore there is likely/obviously MUCH more that TS or MJ can/will reveal to us, and each tidbit has potential to be shocking. It might verify some suspicions we had, elliminate long-held beliefs or add a whole new dimension requiring us to rethink much of the hoax scenario.
We know that TPTB like to create order out of chaos-- as in create a problem which they come in to solve. The problem might be terrorism (they supply) solved with tighter security, dictators (they set up) solved with wars to rid them, and wars solved with creating an overall "benevolent" power--namely The New World Order. The stated intentions of some of the leaders of this push for the NWO, seem to be for unity and security/peace. One Bible verse says that when people are saying peace and safety, then destruction will come (1 Thessalonians 5:3). But isn't that what MJ wants for the world--love, peace, caring for the planet. They are not both on the same team, so we must assume that MJ is on the good side, and that they are lying--intending really to bring slavery and massive death. MJ's track record has been pure true love, and their track record has been misery for the masses. So wouldn't they be aware that MJ is interferring with their plans, and try to block or remove him. I think it was Front likened it to chess and that he was always one move ahead.
Okay, now I'm thinking in terms of what good the common man or public can do by being aware of "evil" intentions of TPTB setting in place the NWO. Simply becoming aware of their tactics can't possibly stop them, for they surely could simply turn off the internet or cripple our power systems (blackouts) or drop bombs, or they bring their tanks into our cities. No, it must be the right time for this info to be revealed to us, or we wouldn't know about it. I believe deep important secrets are only revealed when it's God's timing, coming closer to "end times". Daniel spoke of "knowledge increasing in the last days". This "awareness" will likely lead us to WW3. If there are huge demonstrations in the streets or "revolutions", then comes the crack-down with force, just like other revolutions. And that's just what "they" planned to happen. I believe this IS God's timing, His drama unfolding! We each play our part, acting as we feel led or "want" to. MJ is submitting to what he feels God is leading him to do. God is moving and working behind the scenes--shaking the earth's powerful people and their plans. TS speaks of real danger, but he and/or MJ are trusting God all throughout.
What role the one or more friends in the FBI have in this hoax is still unclear to me. And they may not even know MJ's full purpose-- EOW, and perhaps they have been told MJ would assist them in catching someone, in trade for clearance in creating a Thriller 2 movie, using (a body), ambulance, UCLA, and a courtroom. All I know, is that we only know a speck of what's really going on. In the Bible again, in the days when the Israelites were in captivity, God led those ruling kings, Cyrus and Artaxerxes to help them rebuild their temple. God can make anybody he wants do what he wants when he wants. Just some thoughts.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 18, 2011, 07:56:42 AM
MJ stated in TII that he's doing this to bring 'awareness' and 'awakening' to people. This aspect of the hoax (ARG or whatever) has done just that....we've all become more aware and awake since his 'death', but we are a very small number compared to those out there. But even so, we still are only aware and awake of a 'system' that we cannot break completely free from on our own (kinda like knowing you are dreaming while in a dream). That is why I strongly believe that there will be a BAM because without one the 'goal' for all this would not be reached...and I think we know enough about Mike to know that he usually accomplishes everything he sets as a 'goal'. The entire world needs to wake up...and while the ripples that are and have been created by those of us who are more aware and awake, have and will continue to have a far-reaching impact...the entire world needs a huge 'jolt' in order to wake up from the dream (matrix) that 'they' (TPTB) have created.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOYWsKRONbs&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: PureLove on December 18, 2011, 09:35:17 AM
First and foremost are MJ’s beliefs about the Bible, the NWO, and the end of the world. I have already documented this significantly, so I won’t repeat it here (see Update #1, for example). For MJ, these beliefs are not just entertainment; they are very real. There is a real battle between good and evil in this world; it has existed for thousands of years, but it gets much more intense near the end of the world. And anyone who does not take sides with the evil powers, especially if they are rich and/or famous, will become prime targets of these evil powers (often referred to as the Illuminati).
On the other hand, this does not mean that MJ is paranoid, and always looking at who is behind him, etc. No, his faith in God saves him from paranoia; but true faith in God does not make people careless, or cause you to take unnecessary risks (see Matthew 4:5-7).
TS explained it so well. When you become an important artist, they want you to become a strong pawn for them in their game. If you deny to become one of them, you become a target for them. Michael has always been aware of that. He knew that he was in danger. Yet he went on stage because he has faith in God just like TS wrote. So, denying that Michael was in danger would be denying the fact that we are all in danger. When you become an important person, the danger and threat gets bigger for you. It's just simple like that. I do not believe the FBI or DA would be cooperating with Michael if this was just for a movie. There must be something so much more serious than that. And the threats Michael received and the danger he was in, was the reason why the FBI is involved. And plus there is a sting operation which is against to medical field in my humble opinion. So, I definitely do not believe it is all for F.U.N
Post by: RK on December 18, 2011, 11:11:22 AM
Quote
Then don’t you think they are capable of taking MJ out? So why didn’t they succeed in killing MJ before 2009? In fact, why didn’t they succeed in the child molestation charges? There is a very simple answer: as with Daniel, God shut the mouths of the lions, and thwarted the conspiracies of the government officials.
Why did God protect MJ, and not JFK, MLK, etc? Perhaps only God understands that fully; but it could well be that God has a special plan for MJ, in the final battle against the NWO. Maybe God has a mission for MJ, and has protected him from his enemies “for such a time as this” (Esther 4:14).
This is the moment...This is it......
For such a time as this...the final curtain call.....
A battle of David and Goliath proportions, where a sweet singing psalmist was able to bring down a nephilim giant with a stone from his sling shot right into it's forehead..... or in this case...it's all seeing eye.
Post by: Do on December 18, 2011, 01:28:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VozD1cQwDOc
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VozD1cQwDOc[/youtube]
This fits my feelings very well right now!
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 18, 2011, 02:02:52 PM
The album came out in 1997... 4 years before 9/11.
In TII Michael said "We have 4 years to get it right", which was in 2009. 4 years later is 2012, Don't you think he's warning us, again? :? errrr
Post by: Andrea on December 18, 2011, 02:04:17 PM
Sometimes I'm the social pariah, sometimes the voice of the underrepresented. Pigeon/statue either/or. We need a digging-own-grave smiley.
To clarify my last post, perhaps FBI was contacted for approval, alerted to stand by, and so they could stand down; false alarm, pseudo scenario, play-act-ment, by any other name; illusion, ruse, hoax.
One could reason that bringing the FBI in on this would be necessary not only to enlist official departments cooperation but also to insure legality. Considering what we have learned about how the FBI functions internally (little communication between departments), one or two key people being solely responsible for providing MJHD approval and clearance may well be all it takes. Further, this truth legitimizes TS's role(play) here; FBI cooperation sounds so... gansta, doesn't it?
I agree that FBI involvement can ensure legality, at least a couple of agents, perhaps a Mulder and Scully type-team. Major government departments can be corrupt but it doesn't mean that every individual within these agencies are.
I believe some FBI help stemmed from the years of investigating Michael for the child abuse allegations and finding NOTHING to support those accusations. It would've become clear to any Feds involved that Michael was targeted and make them more than willing to help him out later on, with the hoax. The FBI's involvement can absolve any insiders of the hoax from getting in trouble - like the UCLA docs, coroner, paramedics, etc.
A potential sting(s) could bring corruption to the forefront, expose it when the time is right and when Michael is ready to BAM. I'm sure the FBI involved has kept close tabs on those who surrounded Michael (or tried to) and their actions before and since June 25th. The big question with a sting is WHO are the targets? The pharmaceutical companies? Music industry? The media? Organized crime syndicates? The families that make up TPTB and their nefarious plans for the future of humanity? If there is any sting going on, it can give Michael evidence to expose the evils in the world when he comes back, when everyone in the world is shaken to their core and perhaps ready to face some real truths.
Post by: emulik on December 18, 2011, 02:12:18 PM
Has anyone seen how Blood On The Dancefloor's album cover is like Michael telling you about 9/11?Hi MJFAN7, it was mentioned some time ago, it can mean something...we will see
The album came out in 1997... 4 years before 9/11.
In TII Michael said "We have 4 years to get it right", which was in 2009. 4 years later is 2012, Don't you think he's warning us, again? :? errrr
Post by: MJonmind on December 18, 2011, 02:28:23 PM
Quote from TS...TIAI Revealed...December 22nd, 2009Yes, and that may be one reason why MJ disguised as Dave Dave and Akon called him Dave.QuoteThen don’t you think they are capable of taking MJ out? So why didn’t they succeed in killing MJ before 2009? In fact, why didn’t they succeed in the child molestation charges? There is a very simple answer: as with Daniel, God shut the mouths of the lions, and thwarted the conspiracies of the government officials.
Why did God protect MJ, and not JFK, MLK, etc? Perhaps only God understands that fully; but it could well be that God has a special plan for MJ, in the final battle against the NWO. Maybe God has a mission for MJ, and has protected him from his enemies “for such a time as this” (Esther 4:14).
This is the moment...This is it......
For such a time as this...the final curtain call.....
A battle of David and Goliath proportions, where a sweet singing psalmist was able to bring down a nephilim giant with a stone from his sling shot right into it's forehead..... or in this case...it's all seeing eye.
This role TS speaks of is the key role, IMO.
Has anyone seen how Blood On The Dancefloor's album cover is like Michael telling you about 9/11?I suspect that as well. Only it will be a 9/11 disaster scenario everywhere. Daniel 12:1-2.
The album came out in 1997... 4 years before 9/11.
In TII Michael said "We have 4 years to get it right", which was in 2009. 4 years later is 2012, Don't you think he's warning us, again? :? errrr
Quote
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 18, 2011, 03:47:31 PM
Quote from TS...TIAI Revealed...December 22nd, 2009QuoteThen don’t you think they are capable of taking MJ out? So why didn’t they succeed in killing MJ before 2009? In fact, why didn’t they succeed in the child molestation charges? There is a very simple answer: as with Daniel, God shut the mouths of the lions, and thwarted the conspiracies of the government officials.
Why did God protect MJ, and not JFK, MLK, etc? Perhaps only God understands that fully; but it could well be that God has a special plan for MJ, in the final battle against the NWO. Maybe God has a mission for MJ, and has protected him from his enemies “for such a time as this” (Esther 4:14).
This is the moment...This is it......
For such a time as this...the final curtain call.....
A battle of David and Goliath proportions, where a sweet singing psalmist was able to bring down a nephilim giant with a stone from his sling shot right into it's forehead..... or in this case...it's all seeing eye.
Thank you for quoting that part of TS' post. I certainly believe God had/has a precise plan for MJ, that's why he was born and was given so much fame. It's almost impossible to not see it.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 18, 2011, 03:53:09 PM
Quote
@Gina, I believe there is a "key" person at the FBI as TS said, certainly, there has to be. The 333 pages in 7 files released on 12/21 (22nd, real life physical location weather delay) is not a coincidence, so there is at least one key person at the FBI cooperating with Michael. It makes sense anyway, someone had to give approval to LAFD firehouse 71 for their role (and others, see earlier debate). There is a branch of the FBI that handles entertainment productions, you'll recall. FBI involvement past this key person might be as simple as MJ alerted the agency to his project so they don't get involved unnecessarily in the "investigation" into his "death". Sort of like how schools alert the local FD when they do routine fire drills so that time and funds are not wasted with false alarm calls. Just a thought.
@bec - it can not be that simple. Even if the most important person in FBI cooperates with MJ, I do not believe it is enough. There had to be some life threats (real or fabricated) in order for the FBI to cooperate. About the entertainment division - I have doubts they are allowed to involve in faking someone's death.
Post by: bec on December 18, 2011, 09:33:41 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 19, 2011, 12:17:25 AM
Post by: bec on December 19, 2011, 01:06:10 AM
If what MJ is doing is not against the law (which it isn't, verified), then to not notify the FBI of his plans is at least irresponsible. If they were not at least made aware of advance plans of some sort of simulation, they or contributing agencies might waste money investigating or at least following up on said simulation (MJHD). In addition, since the FBI offers it's assistance to other movie or TV productions, as their website says they do, shouldn't MJHD be extended the same service?
Post by: scorpionchik on December 19, 2011, 02:14:44 AM
@Gina, think less involved and think more aware.
If what MJ is doing is not against the law (which it isn't, verified), then to not notify the FBI of his plans is at least irresponsible. If they were not at least made aware of advance plans of some sort of simulation, they or contributing agencies might waste money investigating or at least following up on said simulation (MJHD). In addition, since the FBI offers it's assistance to other movie or TV productions, as their website says they do, shouldn't MJHD be extended the same service?
Come again.............
Post by: WhiteNight on December 19, 2011, 03:29:00 AM
I agree that this is about raising awareness....but IMO, that is just one step because awareness on its own will not exact the change this world needs at this point in history. As others have mentioned, people have always been 'aware' to some degree...yet, we carry that awareness with us while we go sell ourselves (labor) daily in order to have enough $ to pay 'them' for our spot on the planet. Despite our 'awareness'...we can't escape 'them' because they've infiltrated every aspect of our waking lives....from our schools to our governments to our places of worship to our 'entertainment'....and everything in between.
MJ stated in TII that he's doing this to bring 'awareness' and 'awakening' to people. This aspect of the hoax (ARG or whatever) has done just that....we've all become more aware and awake since his 'death', but we are a very small number compared to those out there. But even so, we still are only aware and awake of a 'system' that we cannot break completely free from on our own (kinda like knowing you are dreaming while in a dream). That is why I strongly believe that there will be a BAM because without one the 'goal' for all this would not be reached...and I think we know enough about Mike to know that he usually accomplishes everything he sets as a 'goal'. The entire world needs to wake up...and while the ripples that are and have been created by those of us who are more aware and awake, have and will continue to have a far-reaching impact...the entire world needs a huge 'jolt' in order to wake up from the dream (matrix) that 'they' (TPTB) have created.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOYWsKRONbs&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
With L.O.V.E. always.
That was very nicely said and I agree completely! People need to realize how deep the ‘system’ has infiltrated our lives.
Everyone’s posts have been great! I enjoyed reading them very much!
Well anyway since people are posting videos (which I watched and enjoyed) I figured I would post this video sequence that I made recently. I actually posted this on the other redirect thread as well. Enjoy!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KP7WAYIG_7s[/youtube]
Post by: MJonmind on December 19, 2011, 04:08:14 AM
Quote
That was very nicely said and I agree completely! People need to realize how deep the ‘system’ has infiltrated our lives.
You referred to this "system" as female. It makes me think that the system is the harlot in Revelation. Perhaps Dirty Diana is the same harlot, seducing the world. And of course MJ "escapes" the bed of Diana on stage in TII--again showing escaping the System. There's hints to the harlot aspect in Billy Jean, Blood on the Dance Floor, and the Pepsi Dream commercial. MJ's songs all have deeper levels.
Quote
"I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality." and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." Revelation 17:1,2,5.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 19, 2011, 08:13:43 AM
@MJonmind...interesting connection with MJ's lyrics (instances where a 'female' is present) and the harlot in Revelations. One thing I'm positive about is that MJ's lyrics go way beyond the surface...and I tend to believe that (at least) some instances of a 'female', in his songs, do not refer to a 'woman'...but something much deeper than that.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: PureLove on December 19, 2011, 09:43:40 AM
TV shows are fake and anytime someone dies on a TV show it's "faking a death". Same with movies. There's no difference.
You're confusing fiction and reality. Someone who dies in a movie and someone who fakes his death in reality is not the same. One is fiction, the other one is real. What you say is something to say like this; the table has 4 legs, a dog has 4 legs too, so the table is a dog. I don't understand how you compare the two.
Yes, this is also a REAL life movie but it is not only a movie and most of all it is not a random movie. The script might have written by Michael himself but he is not pulling the strings alone. FBI is helping him out and it is not just because this is a tv show.
Post by: bec on December 19, 2011, 11:26:00 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 19, 2011, 01:32:28 PM
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 19, 2011, 01:52:40 PM
When Michael said there were people who wanted him dead he was just playing a role?
No :cry:
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 19, 2011, 02:15:51 PM
The checkered floor is one of the Illuminati/masons main symbols. And Michael looks pretty angry in that picture. And blood on the dance floor could have a different meaning than what seems the song to be about?
I also remember the photo of Murray seemingly being a freemason.
The eye in "They don't care about us" and there is more to prove Mj had a problem with Illuminati/masons. To me it's very clear it's not a joke.
Post by: bec on December 19, 2011, 03:45:21 PM
Because to me that's just further evidence that the entire thing is a set up for the illusion.
Ps. I never said MJ's hoax is a joke.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 19, 2011, 04:04:54 PM
Post by: scorpionchik on December 19, 2011, 04:18:09 PM
revealed assassination plan to Michael and helped him to escape. But still the bottom line remains to be the fact that Murray was ordered/going to
harm Michael therefore MJ had to "die". That said, Michael may/it is possible to stay "dead" forever because the danger will never go away.
Post by: bec on December 19, 2011, 04:21:39 PM
But we know better. We have every reason to believe Murray is in on it, so therefore... in my opinion, MJ orchestrated the whole thing, including those recorded messages he made about being in fear for his life and people out to get him, and that album cover, and all the 58706487608 other little clues we have discovered, tracing back many, many, many years.
Post by: Magic_Love_4U on December 19, 2011, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from TS...TIAI Revealed...December 22nd, 2009QuoteWhy did God protect MJ, and not JFK, MLK, etc? Perhaps only God understands that fully; but it could well be that God has a special plan for MJ, in the final battle against the NWO. Maybe God has a mission for MJ, and has protected him from his enemies “for such a time as this” (Esther 4:14).
In his song They Don't Care About Us, he sang:
"I look to heaven to fulfill its prophecy... Set me free"
That verse is just stuck in my head, including:
"Beat me, hate me You can never break me Will me, thrill me You can never kill me"
Michael also said in an interview waaay back, by Barbara Walters, that he believed himself to be psychic.
Another thing, William Cooper said (this in the early 90`s maybe earlier) that there are many members of these secret socities that have turned on the agenda and many have also infiltrated the socities. Most of us know Michael is/was a Mason, and he did not like their Agenda. Not many masons actually know what the agenda really is and what they really do, but when you come to a surtain level in success more doors open.
Can Michael have joined those who want to bring these bad people down?
Infiltration have been made by fbi, police, media and artists and business men.
We see now more and more in the celebrity world that artists are starting to speak out, giving out hints on what is really going on. People who have been in the Game now choose to exit.
Something big is going on.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 19, 2011, 07:14:52 PM
Just as some on this site don't believe in GOD or The Bible, does not change the validity of either nor does it change the fact that MJ believes in both GOD and The Bible. Moreover, his belief in both are huge reasons for this hoax (EOW etc.). So, just like some don't believe in or understand the conspiracy does not change the fact that one exists, nor the fact that it plays a huge part in why he is faking his death.
Let's not forget that Michael's art imitated his life; not vice versa. Which is most likely the reason Paris mentioned "Moonwalker", being there were/are people after MJ and his assets, so he had to disappear only to return later.
I have realized that many now refuse to accept the reasons for the hoax and most likely never will. Just as people don't get the "why's" and some of the "how's" for the hoax now, I'm pretty sure many still won't even after BAM. How unfortunate, but true.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 19, 2011, 07:26:33 PM
And yes Magic_Love_4U , many police, F.B.I. Agents etc., are masons but not to infiltrate, but instead to help push the agenda. There also are good people within these organizations I'm sure, some who are helping MJ; unfortunately they are the minority.
Post by: Adi on December 19, 2011, 07:32:00 PM
Well ofcourse there had to be clues; how else would we know he's alive and how else would entrapment be avoided? Just because there are clues for those reasons, does not mean that everything else is to also add to the "illusion" or storyline. If there is no conspiracy nor ever was; was there also than no conspiracy against JKF, Princess Diana, MLK, John Lennon etc., which lead to their deaths? Or are all of those things just coincidences? Michael himself was in as much danger as those people and if the album covers and song meanings are for mere entertainment, than I supppose we can add his meeting in the WTC on 9/11 to that list? Tupac once said, "DON'T just bop your head to the beat, but listen to the lyrics and what artist's are saying and hold them accountable for it." He was not just speaking about his own songs, but others too. The conspiracy he spoke of, did it not exist? He too was almost killed by five gunshot wounds two years prior to his death.
Just as some on this site don't believe in GOD or The Bible, does not change the validity of either nor does it change the fact that MJ believes in both GOD and The Bible. Moreover, his belief in both are huge reasons for this hoax (EOW etc.). So, just like some don't believe in or understand the conspiracy does not change the fact that one exists, nor the fact that it plays a huge part in why he is faking his death.
Let's not forget that Michael's art imitated his life; not vise versa. Which is most likely the reason Paris mentioned "Moonwalker", being there were/are people after MJ and his assets, so he had to disappear only to return later.
I have realized that many now refuse to accept the reasons for the hoax and most likely never will. Just as people don't get the "why's" and some of the "how's" for the hoax now, I'm pretty sure many still won't even after BAM. How unfortunate, but true.
I agree Suzy7
This is of the reasons why at this time I have been re-reading the posts and updates by TS, especially the early ones from back in December 2009 and also the original posts by STUDY. I have found it really useful for my own reasons to go back over them.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 19, 2011, 07:48:14 PM
Post by: PureLove on December 20, 2011, 04:29:21 AM
Well ofcourse there had to be clues; how else would we know he's alive and how else would entrapment be avoided? Just because there are clues for those reasons, does not mean that everything else is to also add to the "illusion" or storyline. If there is no conspiracy nor ever was; was there also than no conspiracy against JKF, Princess Diana, MLK, John Lennon etc., which lead to their deaths? Or are all of those things just coincidences? Michael himself was in as much danger as those people and if the album covers and song meanings are for mere entertainment, than I supppose we can add his meeting in the WTC on 9/11 to that list? Tupac once said, "DON'T just bop your head to the beat, but listen to the lyrics and what artist's are saying and hold them accountable for it." He was not just speaking about his own songs, but others too. The conspiracy he spoke of, did it not exist? He too was almost killed by five gunshot wounds two years prior to his death.
Just as some on this site don't believe in GOD or The Bible, does not change the validity of either nor does it change the fact that MJ believes in both GOD and The Bible. Moreover, his belief in both are huge reasons for this hoax (EOW etc.). So, just like some don't believe in or understand the conspiracy does not change the fact that one exists, nor the fact that it plays a huge part in why he is faking his death.
Let's not forget that Michael's art imitated his life; not vice versa. Which is most likely the reason Paris mentioned "Moonwalker", being there were/are people after MJ and his assets, so he had to disappear only to return later.
I have realized that many now refuse to accept the reasons for the hoax and most likely never will. Just as people don't get the "why's" and some of the "how's" for the hoax now, I'm pretty sure many still won't even after BAM. How unfortunate, but true.
Agreed Suzy.
TS wrote:
Quote
Are all these things just for art and entertainment, with no real threat? And even IF there was no real threat before such warnings were given: would not the warnings themselves generate a real danger? Would MJ put himself and his children in the cross-hairs of real danger, just for the sake of creating entertainment about a threat that was not real—that is, not real until the entertainment was created?
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
To me TS was clear enough when he explained how in a big danger Michael was in and I'm having a hard time why some do not want to get it. I also don't get how some can think that Michael faked his entire life, such as his 2005 trials, the Pepsi commercial burn etc. This is not only about falling into a fantasy hoax world like TS says but also it is such a huge disrespectfulness to Michael. This issue is boiling my blood, so I'd better stop here. :evil:
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 20, 2011, 05:33:37 AM
To me TS was clear enough when he explained how in a big danger Michael was in and I'm having a hard time why some do not want to get it. I also don't get how some can think that Michael faked his entire life, such as his 2005 trials, the Pepsi commercial burn etc. This is not only about falling into a fantasy hoax world like TS says but also it is such a huge disrespectfulness to Michael. This issue is boiling my blood, so I'd better stop here. :evil:
but purelove, we do know that he deliberately manipulated the media and everyone about who MJ is for years. so in some ways he did fake his life to a degree. dont let your blod boil hun. be happy ::P
i dont agree that this is all just for a movie. i think a movie will be a major by product. but not the main reason. and although i 'think' i know what theory i have decided to go with, i still however really respect the views of others such as bec, gina, etc as they raise very interesting and valid points. i really value the differing opinions and actually want to see them... to the degree that i must confess, (@ bec ;) ) i sometimes (though, very rarely) slightly am swayed towards movie theory at times... (damn, hate admitting that :lol:)
i guess when you spend extended time in any of the theories and review their backing 'evidences' and become engrossed in it, then numerous theories can be plausible.
only time will tell i guess. but til then at least all our conflicting opinions and theories are making us all look at this DH in the most thorough way possible from every angle...
but please dont let your blood boil
bearhug
P.s - just wanted to say that i am still reading and love you all!
Post by: _Anna_ on December 20, 2011, 05:50:02 AM
If Michael was in such a danger, life-threatening danger, would he really:
- Let his children freely go everywhere, like we've seen them since 2009 without masks, exposing them to such risks? Anything can happen to them.
- Let his children on stage in Cardiff in front of 50.000 people if he received death threats? A shot can fire and kill the children, a bomb could explode, the stage could "accidentally" crush.
- Let his children (Paris especially, as well as the other teenagers in the family like Donte, Randy Jr., Jaafar) to openly talk precisely about the ones that give the death threats, which are The Illuminati? They constantly speak about it, openly, they share photos, etc. Would he be that irresponsible to let them talk about it when everyone now knows it's her account? When he would know THEY can and have the possibility to harm her? being, after all, just a child who can be harmed anywhere on the street, kidnapped, even killed. How many were shot on the street so far?
Post by: MJonmind on December 20, 2011, 06:35:33 AM
Jesus grew up studying the Old Testament Scriptures and knew them well, and many times would say certain things were happening to fulfill certain words in them, or to make them come true. He also told Judas, "What you must do, do quickly." etc. He and God were putting plans and reality together into one.
MJ knows Scripture very well also, and does much other reading. For all we know Michael had/has a deep sense of awareness of what would/will happen to him. Michael's 20+ year hoax plans just happen to dovetail what God is planning and will do in his life. It could be that in the beginning MJ was not as aware as later, how much God was guiding his creativity and protecting him. Now he has utmost confidence that he and his children will be protected. So he and God are "creating" his reality, be it entertainment and actual danger. They say the safest place you can be, is in the centre of God's will.
I remember in one video of Seth Riggs, he said one time he left the room for a bit, and came back to find MJ standing there in a moment of earnest communication with God. He was saying something like, "God I thank you for giving me my talent. Whatever you want me to do, I will do it." He said that really struck him how humble a servant MJ was for God.
Post by: Magic_Love_4U on December 20, 2011, 06:40:34 AM
------------------------------------------------------
Regarding his children, for one let say Michael is alive, I bet that his children are well protected by family and security, plus that Paris is 13 and Prince is 14, they have a mind of their own. They are old enough to spread the message, now more than ever. We don't see Blanket tweeting, and he show up sometimes with his siblings and cousins, with the whole entourage.
And if Michael is dead, well, the kids most likely want the truth to be known.
If someone killed my dad I would do the same.
The children is old enough to KNOW!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I said about FBI, police, business men etc being in the socities, I meant there ARE and some of them have infiltrated as the GOOD guys, and people on the inside are changing their paths to the good. It is shown right infront of our eyes, it is up to us to see it.
I believe the majority is against their agenda, but the majority of the majority is to afraid to do anything about it.
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Post by: Suzy7 on December 20, 2011, 01:45:57 PM
It seems many dismiss the idea of a real threat, merely because MJ laughed at the O2 press conference or his children are just living their lives. Really? Are they supposed to quiver in fear and hide under their beds? What kind of life is that? Should Michael have walked out on stage crying and sucking his thumb, looking over his shoulder? As if they didn't try to discredit him enough. I've mentioned other targets of the same conspiracy before, I don't recall them acting this way. Wouldn't you also laugh if you were outsmarting your enemies? His kids, just as any, deserve to be happy and live their lives as children.
I also agree Purelove, making every event a joke, or hoax, or just dismissing serious things all the time is over doing it. Yes we should be open-minded and view things from all perspectives, but we should also remain logical. Imagination and reason can be used simultaneously. There is a saying: "Be open-minded; but not so open-minded your brain falls on the floor... ".
Post by: MsTrinity333 on December 20, 2011, 01:50:17 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5Ke7Tn3uOU[/youtube]
Here's Pt 1 of an updated video covering this: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw815qLp3YY[/youtube]
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 20, 2011, 01:50:58 PM
this is a good one ::)
Post by: Suzy7 on December 20, 2011, 01:54:58 PM
Post by: MsTrinity333 on December 20, 2011, 02:17:46 PM
It is indeed Gina lol. And I agree MsTrinity333, it is a strange "coincidence". I also think people interpret the "beast" as being literal, when it appears to be describing the system as you said.
Thank you Suzy7 bearhug
Here's Pt 1/5 of another great discussion on it: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pz3GaawzWI[/youtube]
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on December 20, 2011, 03:43:24 PM
I agree Magic_Love_4U, his children and the rest of his family are protected. I've said this before, but the fact that we've seen them *after* his "death" helps ensure their safety. With the worlds eyes on them, surely no *smart* criminals would try to harm them in any way; that would do nothing more than raise a huge amount of suspicion and questions. Furthermore, if the world and the criminals believe MJ is dead, why would they want to target his family? When has this ever happened before with any of the people who were also targets of a conspiracy (JKF is an exception)? MJ was their target, his children and any other family member were not; nor did they present themselves as being a great threat. And again, even if they were, harming them wouldn't be beneficial. Let's also give God some credit, whether you believe in his existence or not. Michael, myself and many here do and I'd like to think he is working to protect MJ and his family.
It seems many dismiss the idea of a real threat, merely because MJ laughed at the O2 press conference or his children are just living their lives. Really? Are they supposed to quiver in fear and hide under their beds? What kind of life is that? Should Michael have walked out on stage crying and sucking his thumb, looking over his shoulder? As if they didn't try to discredit him enough. I've mentioned other targets of the same conspiracy before, I don't recall them acting this way. Wouldn't you also laugh if you were outsmarting your enemies? His kids, just as any, deserve to be happy and live their lives as children.
I also agree Purelove, making every event a joke, or hoax, or just dismissing serious things all the time is over doing it. Yes we should be open-minded and view things from all perspectives, but we should also remain logical. Imagination and reason can be used simultaneously. There is a saying: "Be open-minded; but not so open-minded your brain falls on the floor... ".
/bravo/
Love it! Thank you Suzy7 for speaking up. I also think that the best thing to do is show your enemy that they are not winning. Show them they have no power over you. By doing that it takes all the energy that would be there from negativity totally away. The family is no different speaking out against TPTB than any one of us here. If the family would be in danger by speaking out than so are we. TPTB are not discriminating here, we ALL are in DANGER.
Many are frustrated and think there is nothing that can be done because they think TPTB are so powerful we have no strength against them. We are VERY POWERFUL in numbers. We are very powerful in knowledge. The mere fact that we know about their agenda takes away their power. We can live in the world but not be of the world. I do not let TPTB dictate my life and whether or not I will be happy and free.
The way one lives their life is a matter of perspective and mindset. I see change happening all around me every day. I see resistance to TPTB. One example is Occupy Portland where I live. Those people have not layed down and cried and allowed TPTB to dictate to them. Those people are brave and they are letting their voices be heard.
Power to the people.
Post by: VeryLittleSusie on December 20, 2011, 05:23:19 PM
Post by: paula-c on December 20, 2011, 05:48:14 PM
I agree Magic_Love_4U, his children and the rest of his family are protected. I've said this before, but the fact that we've seen them *after* his "death" helps ensure their safety. With the worlds eyes on them, surely no *smart* criminals would try to harm them in any way; that would do nothing more than raise a huge amount of suspicion and questions. Furthermore, if the world and the criminals believe MJ is dead, why would they want to target his family? When has this ever happened before with any of the people who were also targets of a conspiracy (JKF is an exception)? MJ was their target, his children and any other family member were not; nor did they present themselves as being a great threat. And again, even if they were, harming them wouldn't be beneficial. Let's also give God some credit, whether you believe in his existence or not. Michael, myself and many here do and I'd like to think he is working to protect MJ and his family.
It seems many dismiss the idea of a real threat, merely because MJ laughed at the O2 press conference or his children are just living their lives. Really? Are they supposed to quiver in fear and hide under their beds? What kind of life is that? Should Michael have walked out on stage crying and sucking his thumb, looking over his shoulder? As if they didn't try to discredit him enough. I've mentioned other targets of the same conspiracy before, I don't recall them acting this way. Wouldn't you also laugh if you were outsmarting your enemies? His kids, just as any, deserve to be happy and live their lives as children.
I also agree Purelove, making every event a joke, or hoax, or just dismissing serious things all the time is over doing it. Yes we should be open-minded and view things from all perspectives, but we should also remain logical. Imagination and reason can be used simultaneously. There is a saying: "Be open-minded; but not so open-minded your brain falls on the floor... ".
/bravo/
Love it! Thank you Suzy7 for speaking up. I also think that the best thing to do is show your enemy that they are not winning. Show them they have no power over you. By doing that it takes all the energy that would be there from negativity totally away. The family is no different speaking out against TPTB than any one of us here. If the family would be in danger by speaking out than so are we. TPTB are not discriminating here, we ALL are in DANGER.
Many are frustrated and think there is nothing that can be done because they think TPTB are so powerful we have no strength against them. We are VERY POWERFUL in numbers. We are very powerful in knowledge. The mere fact that we know about their agenda takes away their power. We can live in the world but not be of the world. I do not let TPTB dictate my life and whether or not I will be happy and free.
The way one lives their life is a matter of perspective and mindset. I see change happening all around me every day. I see resistance to TPTB. One example is Occupy Portland where I live. Those people have not layed down and cried and allowed TPTB to dictate to them. Those people are brave and they are letting their voices be heard.
Power to the people.
/bravo/
Post by: MissG on December 20, 2011, 08:26:07 PM
Why on earth are you, TS, connecting that event with wanting to get MJ out??? The reasons for that event to happen were much more complicated than that.
Michael has nothing to do with that event. That is the least he needs in his resume, being responsible for the death of those in the towers that day.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 20, 2011, 09:26:58 PM
MsTrinity333, those videos were good and I recommend people watch the first one you posted titled: God TV and The United Nations. He spoke perfectly about the NWO agenda being implemented by the U.N. Jehovah's Witnesses have the same take on the "beast" mentioned in Revelation; they also have a DVD I've watched that connects the ancient religions of Babylon to modern day world governments and religions. It is very much about the system rather than an actual beast interpreted by many.
When he spoke about the U.N.'s agenda being Occult Theocracy and global order, it reminded me of the occultic phrase "as above, so below". This man-made, earthly agenda obviously opposes The Bibles wishes as the King James Version reads "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Given they (our world leaders) do everything in opposition of God, our one world religion--Occult Theocracy-- will be just that. So, the agenda will be a "kingdom on earth" but under a Luciferian religion with the belief that "All is One, All is Divine; everything and everyone is God". The Bible shows us Lucifer promised Adam and Eve the similar lie by saying "Ye shall be as gods". To summarize, this lie told by Lucifer and taught by our leaders represents the Great Apostasy, the falling away which was prophesied in The Book of Revelation.
I forgot to add bearhug to you too MsTrinity <3
Post by: Suzy7 on December 20, 2011, 09:34:53 PM
Post by: MissG on December 20, 2011, 09:39:51 PM
MissG, MJ is not at all "responsible" for 9/11. The point being is that it was a planned event, and they had planned on "killing two birds with one stone" by attempting to kill Michael that day too. He is connected to that event as he had a meeting in the WTC the morning of 9/11.
Yes, it was a planned event but with another aim. I don´t believe the "killing 2 birds" theory/ conspiracy.
Post by: Heartsong on December 20, 2011, 09:48:28 PM
MissG, MJ is not at all "responsible" for 9/11. The point being is that it was a planned event, and they had planned on "killing two birds with one stone" by attempting to kill Michael that day too. He is connected to that event as he had a meeting in the WTC the morning of 9/11.
Yes, it was a planned event but with another aim. I don´t believe the "killing 2 birds" theory/ conspiracy.
I have it in my head that I read something saying one of Michael's people were supposed to be at that meeting, not Michael himself.
I will now go try to find where I read it. Jerm's book perhaps, idk...
Post by: Suzy7 on December 20, 2011, 09:56:33 PM
@Heartsong It was allegedly supposed to be with Frank Cascio...I have no time to find the exact quote right now but I'll be back later unless you find it first.
Post by: bec on December 20, 2011, 10:25:17 PM
Re: the current topic, the '9/11 was designed to [also] take out MJ' theory contains a pretty tall accusation. I'd like to see substantiation that MJ was indeed scheduled to be there before accepting the theory as plausible.
Post by: mjselfsweet on December 21, 2011, 12:22:21 AM
Post by: MichaelsAngel on December 21, 2011, 12:25:36 AM
I think I'm pretty grounded in reality and my brain is intact inside my cranium, thank you. But no matter. I am teflon. Shit shall not stick.
Re: the current topic, the '9/11 was designed to [also] take out MJ' theory contains a pretty tall accusation. I'd like to see substantiation that MJ was indeed scheduled to be there before accepting the theory as plausible.
I don't know how factual this is but when I read Frank Cascio's book, he said that he [Frank] was the one who had to go to to the towers on 9/11 to return the jewelry (the watch and the necklace that Michael gave to Elizabeth Taylor) that Michael had borrowed to the Bank of America offices located in the towers. Frank never mentioned Michael going with him.
Post by: MichaelsAngel on December 21, 2011, 12:26:02 AM
I'm with you on that Bec, 9/11 did not happen to take MJ out.. pffffft not believing that baloney. Frank Cascio says in his book that it was a 2 million dollar watch that was borrowed for MJ, from a jeweler, to wear at the 30th anniversary gig in madison square garden and the HE (Frank) was supposed to take it back, to Bank of America offices, the morning of 9/11,, not Michael. He woke up late to one of the security guys callin him tellin him one of the buildings had been hit, and they got the hell outta dodge.
oops we posted at the same time lolol/
Post by: curls on December 21, 2011, 01:03:58 AM
Post by: mjselfsweet on December 21, 2011, 01:12:32 AM
I'm with you on that Bec, 9/11 did not happen to take MJ out.. pffffft not believing that baloney. Frank Cascio says in his book that it was a 2 million dollar watch that was borrowed for MJ, from a jeweler, to wear at the 30th anniversary gig in madison square garden and the HE (Frank) was supposed to take it back, to Bank of America offices, the morning of 9/11,, not Michael. He woke up late to one of the security guys callin him tellin him one of the buildings had been hit, and they got the hell outta dodge.
oops we posted at the same time lolol/
: ) : ) great minds.............. ;D ;D
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 21, 2011, 01:40:24 AM
Well said Im_convinced and Susie, and I like the empowerment lol. The point is to be educated because education is awareness, thus it does not have to equate fear. We should and can all live our lives happily and having fun, pursuing our goals etc., but take with us our knowledge. Knowledge is a powerful tool as they say and the best weapon to have is our mind.
MsTrinity333, those videos were good and I recommend people watch the first one you posted titled: God TV and The United Nations. He spoke perfectly about the NWO agenda being implemented by the U.N. Jehovah's Witnesses have the same take on the "beast" mentioned in Revelation; they also have a DVD I've watched that connects the ancient religions of Babylon to modern day world governments and religions. It is very much about the system rather than an actual beast interpreted by many.
When he spoke about the U.N.'s agenda being Occult Theocracy and global order, it reminded me of the occultic phrase "as above, so below". This obviously opposes The Bible as the King James Version reads, "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
Given they (our world leaders) do everything in opposition of God, our one world religion--Occult Theocracy-- will be just that. So, the agenda will be a "kingdom on earth" but under a Luciferian religion with the belief that "All is One, All is Divine; everything and everyone is God". The Bible shows us Lucifer promised Adam and Eve that "Ye shall be as gods". To summarize, this lie told by Lucifer and taught by our leaders represents the Great Apostasy, the falling away which was prophesied in The Book of Revelation.
I forgot to add bearhug to you too MsTrinity <3
@ suzy - love your post x
Post by: MJonmind on December 21, 2011, 02:35:42 AM
Quote
TS
the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed).
MichaelsAngel
Quote
I don't know how factual this is but when I read Frank Cascio's book, he said that he [Frank] was the one who had to go to to the towers on 9/11 to return the jewelry (the watch and the necklace that Michael gave to Elizabeth Taylor) that Michael had borrowed to the Bank of America offices located in the towers. Frank never mentioned Michael going with him.So who really knows, and who's telling the truth in this? Is TS only saying this on hearsay? :?
Bec
Quote
Re: the current topic, the '9/11 was designed to [also] take out MJ' theory contains a pretty tall accusation. I'd like to see substantiation that MJ was indeed scheduled to be there before accepting the theory as plausible.Yes, I agree. This doesn't look good.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 21, 2011, 04:04:35 AM
Bec, it is not at all a tall accusation if you understand the complexity of the conspiracy (Illuminati), and what they have done in the past. In fact, many things done by them have been much more "complicated" in my opinion. Why would MJ have his siblings write about what you believe to be a "tall accusation" if it was not a true story and an actual attempt? Is this really just a lie to throw hoax believers off, even though their books have the potential to be read by millions containing this lie? IF there was no real threat that day, giving the possibility that he could have died on 9-11 is a serious thing to allege, given all of the people who did die that day.
In an interview, Jermaine stated "My mother had stayed up with him all the way until four in the morning and he just slept; he missed *his appointments*, which was great."
La Toya and Frank BOTH stated something similar so I won't repeat their quotes. Why would Jermaine state "he missed his appointments, which was great", if he didn't have any appointment to miss thus, saving his life? We have 4 reliable people stating the same thing: MJ had an appointment in the World Trade Center on 9-11. Jermaine, La Toya, Frank and TS (an inside source!), have ALL confirmed this story. Of course you could say "we can't believe everything they say", but why do we take some things they say as "clues" and not others? Just because we don't WANT to believe in something, does not make it false. There is more that shows this "theory" was real versus not, and if you think different, perhaps give a logical explanation as to why the family, Frank and TS would lie. I think this is enough evidence to substantiate the claim as his itinerary from that day isn't available.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 21, 2011, 04:12:22 AM
Bec, I noticed you had to say your brain is indeed inside your cranium, good to know; but who said it wasn't? There is no need to be made of "teflon" as no one here is personally attacking anyone. Your name nor anyone elses was mentioned, maybe some things really are just meant to address everyone in general.
Post by: Heartsong on December 21, 2011, 05:49:55 AM
I see MissG.
@Heartsong It was allegedly supposed to be with Frank Cascio...I have no time to find the exact quote right now but I'll be back later unless you find it first.
Thanks Suzy, I knew I heard it somewhere. I remember it swayed me back to the middle again as far as an opinion was concerned...I googled for ages only finding tons of reports on Jermaine saying Michael was meant to be there (I knew Jerm's said something about it, just opposite of what I thought, lol).
I really couldn't find anything about Michael and the WTC appt that didn't have Jermaine's name attached to it, so no info earlier than Jermaine's claims, tho a couple articles did say MJ was in New York at the time (I'm pretty sure we all agree on that). Found nothing on Frank's counter claim but I see that mjselfsweet and MichaelsAngel *hugs* have both read Frank's book and confirm what Frank said about going there himself (or having to but didn't?).
I wonder how Frank avoided being there then? Sleep in too or just a later appt? Hmmm, I wonder if that jewelry was part of the recent Liz's jewelry auction? If it was we could pretty much trace it by spotting what Michael was wearing at the Madison Square Gardens gig. Or it may have just been the expensive watch...
So, what a surprise, we have further contradictions.
I did find another couple interesting articles, one saying Michael, Liz and Marlon Brando hired a car to drive home after the attacks but that Liz decided to stay and wait for the airport to reopen. No further details were there regarding the ensuing trip or even if it ensued at all except a comment that it would have been an "interesting" journey. The other was a list of 10 famous people who missed appointments in the WTC that day. Some I haven't heard of (a celebrity cook), and one I have (Gywnth Paltrow) but Michael wasn't listed...
Post by: mjselfsweet on December 21, 2011, 09:26:37 AM
one of the "stalkers" oops i mean "followers", writes on her blog that mj or company, arranged for her and some other fans, to have his bus and stay in it after this all went on, i'll have to review her writings about it again for more specific details about it. but there is a picture of her on a bus.
and i still wont buy the "they were going to take him out also", "get two birds w/one stone" And sorry, but I only take HALF of what latoya and jermaine say and believe it. MJ wasnt close to them for years and years, that was obvious, and after his "death" i think they all scrambled trying to look informed and involved. What family wouldnt? now, he may have involved them in the hoax now, because he needed them,,but before all of this,,his interaction w/them was very limited. maybe the only ones he stayed close w/ janet n katherine. JMO,, no reply needed, its my belief and I'm stickin to it.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 21, 2011, 10:24:59 AM
Here's a quote from an interview he did with Vibe magazine where he talks about 9/11:
Jackson on September 11:
"I was in New York [after performing at Madison Square Garden on September
7 and 10], and I got a call from friends in Saudi Arabia that America was
being attacked. I screamed down the hotel hallway to all our people,
'Everybody get out, let's leave now!' Marlon Brando was on one end, our
security was on the other end. We were all up there, but Elizabeth Taylor was
at another hotel. We jumped in the car, but there were these girls who had
been at the show the night before, and they were banging on the windows,
running down the street screaming. Fans are so loyal. We hid in New Jersey."
Of course, him not mentioning having any meeting that day does NOT prove anything (i.e. it doesn't prove that he didn't). But I do find it odd that IF true, that when speaking about his recollection of that fateful day, he would not mention having escaped death. To me, THAT fact would be much, much more important than the 'girls' who'd been at the show the night before.
Again, it doesn't mean he didn't have a meeting....but it makes me wonder why he would've kept silent about it all this time (I think we first learned about this meeting in La Toya's book). There may very well be a good reason as to why he didn't mention it in the Vibe interview and why it remained a 'secret' all this time....perhaps that's just another 'piece' that has yet to be revealed, who knows. OR...there was no meeting and there's a good reason (motive) as why TS and the family are saying there was. Again, perhaps a reason that is yet to be revealed and/or understood.
The point is none of us know what really happened that day re: this 'supposed' meeting and even if we 'study' the 'evidence' out there, there isn't enough IMO to conclude we KNOW what took place and what didn't....so it's pointless to get frazzled over it.
On another note...and I've posted about this before...I still find it extremely interesting that Mike was notified of the attacks by 'friends' IN Saudi Arabia.
Hopefully this will all make sense some day.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 21, 2011, 05:20:13 PM
Post by: Suzy7 on December 21, 2011, 05:25:03 PM
I do agree with you BeTheChange, and I also wondered the same thing as to why he didn't mention it before. Since it was a planned attack thus his death possibly being planned in the same attack, it could have been too risky to say anything. Any answer that maybe would have hinted at it being a planned event would most definitely be a risk. I don't believe the "he slept in" part of the story, because I think he knew ahead of time. I also read it was the Prince who called him and told him not to go to his meeting; so who knows, but my opinion that it was a real meeting hasn't changed.
Edit: Agreed hesouttamylife, him being in N.Y. at the time is a huge "coincidence."
Post by: Coco on December 21, 2011, 06:33:52 PM
I think I'm pretty grounded in reality and my brain is intact inside my cranium, thank you. But no matter. I am teflon. Shit shall not stick.
Re: the current topic, the '9/11 was designed to [also] take out MJ' theory contains a pretty tall accusation. I'd like to see substantiation that MJ was indeed scheduled to be there before accepting the theory as plausible.
I agree with this. And I thought La Toya mentioned it in her book about he was scheduled to be there. Unless my memory fails me. Though, I'm pretty sure it was discussed on this forum.
Post by: paula-c on December 21, 2011, 06:49:43 PM
Quote
Quote from: TS_comments on November 30, 2011, 01:13:17 PM
February 2010: “[Jermaine] He was very, very healthy but Michael was not with us, way before he arrived to the airport. ... But it’s all going to come out; it’s all going to unfold. [Interviewer] Do you know what it is, and you’re waiting for it to come out? [Jermaine] Yes, yes, I do. ... I know ...” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OOwLcE_6Q}.
June 2010: “[Larry] Do you think we’ll ever find out the whole story? [Jermaine] Yes! Yes! You know why, because his [MJ’s] family is not going to let it not happen. We love you, we miss him; the world needs to know the truth, we need to know the truth, you need to know the truth. And, uh, absolutely; we’re going to do everything in our power as a family to make sure the world knows WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.” {1:32, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi3OiJMjilg}.
February 20, 2011: “There is a due legal process we must honor. Justice first. And then it will be time for truth.” {http://twitter.com/jermjackson5/status/39409940007354368}.
November 16, 2011: “@latoyajackson why don’t you talk more about the real MJ’s killer..?”
{http://twitter.com/#!/_MariamFenty/status/136670562297724929}.
November 16, 2011: “@_MariamFenty you will DEFINITELY hear more in the near future!!!”
{http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/136671664577576960}.
November 21, 2011: “Thanking all the FANS for their support last night! Thank you so very much!!! Keep the faith!!!” {http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/138764680981262336}.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
TS wrote of the signals that have given the family, Jermaine in his book he wrote of the meeting of Michael 9/11 at the WTC, obviously, that meeting was scheduled by someone very powerful he knew what would happen that day, ..who was that person?, Difficult answer.
Post by: PureLove on December 22, 2011, 06:25:51 AM
To me TS was clear enough when he explained how in a big danger Michael was in and I'm having a hard time why some do not want to get it. I also don't get how some can think that Michael faked his entire life, such as his 2005 trials, the Pepsi commercial burn etc. This is not only about falling into a fantasy hoax world like TS says but also it is such a huge disrespectfulness to Michael. This issue is boiling my blood, so I'd better stop here. :evil:
but purelove, we do know that he deliberately manipulated the media and everyone about who MJ is for years. so in some ways he did fake his life to a degree. dont let your blod boil hun. be happy ::P
Yes, Michael did somethings to manipulate the media. He showed himself like a very sick person on wheelchairs etc. It was all preparation to this hoax. But I do not believe that Michael's entire life was a lie, like the 2005 trials and the Pepsi burn. Those issues are proofs that Michael was a threat to the evil side and they wanted him dead. All theories are good to read but theories shouldn't turn into fantasies and we should be sane enough to realize the difference between reality and fiction/fantasy. I get pissed when some of the "theories" pass the level of respect line and get disrespectful to Michael. So, I can not say that it's all ok for all theories. I'm also thinking what Michael would feel like when he reads some of his believers think his entire life is based on lies. This would terribly hurt him.
Post by: curls on December 22, 2011, 09:35:32 AM
Post by: Suzy7 on December 22, 2011, 02:47:22 PM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 22, 2011, 03:13:32 PM
Post by: bec on December 22, 2011, 10:07:34 PM
The story of the boy who cried wolf has come into my mind more than once during the past two years.
Agreed. He faked his death and so speculating that he faked the Pepsi accident is disrespectful? I think not.
He faked his death... therefore every move this man has made his entire life is up for speculation. It's all fair game. You want to call it disrespectful? Fine. But then I call anyone who takes anything he did/happened to him at face value gullible.
This is a much deeper and more complex person then his persona implicates and it's a SHAME after all this time there are people who call themselves hoaxers who still can't see past the public image. There are many more levels to MJ then that. Some of them are dark and some are more then a little twisted.
Yes. I am almost certain he faked the Pepsi accident. Gasp in shock and horror! Just don't choke.
Ps. If only LaToya and Jermaine have confirmed TS's allegation that MJ was scheduled to be @WTC on 9/11 I call that useless. Neither of them are credible sources. PERIOD.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 22, 2011, 10:50:48 PM
The story of the boy who cried wolf has come into my mind more than once during the past two years.
Agreed. He faked his death and so speculating that he faked the Pepsi accident is disrespectful? I think not.
He faked his death... therefore every move this man has made his entire life is up for speculation. It's all fair game. You want to call it disrespectful? Fine. But then I call anyone who takes anything he did/happened to him at face value gullible. AGREE
This is a much deeper and more complex person then his persona implicates and it's a SHAME after all this time there are people who call themselves hoaxers who still can't see past the public image. There are many more levels to MJ then that. Some of them are dark and some are more then a little twisted. YES - AGREE!!!!
Yes. I am almost certain he faked the Pepsi accident. Gasp in shock and horror! Just don't choke. DOUBLE AGREE
Ps. If only LaToya and Jermaine have confirmed TS's allegation that MJ was scheduled to be @WTC on 9/11 I call that useless. Neither of them are credible sources. PERIOD. AGREEE.
@ bec - have to say that though, i acknowledge pureloves point of view, and respect that she might be offended that people are implying that MJ faked most iof his life - I agree with your post 100%
as you know, i am not a 'movie only' believer. (well at least not yet lol) but i agree with you completely that MJ has many sides / layers to him. some perhaps dark and even evil. in fact that statement shouldnt shock people, as it is simple human nature to have good and bad elements to us. its what makes us human. we are all imperfect...
i think he played many, not just media. also his fans. his family. everyone. he is an island unto his own who plays by his own rules. i love him dearly. but he is manipulative. deliberately. and for those who are offended. dont be. it isnt nessecarily negative... its a strategy. a marketing strategy if you will. to make the name MJ current over 4 decades and probably for many many decades to come.
come on.... a spider bite before court???
hyperbaric?
elephant man?
wheelchairs?
moustaches?
disguises?
create lies / also known as illusions. generates hype. creates attention. generates income. income = power (thats marketing 101)
remember what Jermaine said abt wonka...
in jest: damn it, i am starting to sound like a 'movie' beLIEver, lol... i sure as heck dont believe in 'next jesus / messiah' theory.....
Post by: bec on December 22, 2011, 11:23:00 PM
Manipulative is the perfect word. We are being manipulated as well. The hoaxers are being hoaxed right along with the rest of the world. We think we are sooooo smart. We understand him sooooo well. Sound familiar? Just like his non-believer fans. We've all been set up to go down a certain road in order to maximize the BAM effect in the end. Why do you think we can't PROVE the hoax? If we could prove it or solve some integral puzzle and learn the truth unequivocally before the end, we might be so smart, and we wouldn't be properly shocked and amazed come bamsday. How do you shock and amaze people with your fake death when you already allowed them to KNOW you're not dead? Tall order, seemingly counterproductive to have Believers at all, especially considering the effort that has been made to embed clues everywhere you look. But I don't necessarily believe those clues are always leading us in the direction of the Truth, unless you want to call it the truth in the movie that this is. Yes the truth in the movie is that MJ is the target of a conspiracy, etc etc I won't get into, it's been debated in the pages prior. The long and the short of it is that the deck (of Truth) has been stacked against us. We are allowed to know that he is not dead, encouraged periodically even to believe this, but we are not allowed to have tangible proof (example: TS's connection to J5 Twitter posting, also Front's connection to Paris/LaToya twitter and MJ Official Facebook page=triangulated proof, indirect, no direct, public link ie: J5 posting link to TIAI will never happen). In addition to the ever elusive holy grail (ha) of PROOF, we are given a hoax of our very own. Yes MJ is really alive, but THIS (insert false theory of your choice) is WHAT REALLY HAPPENED. Mwahahaha. Evil genius at work. The hoaxers get hoaxed as well. It's extremely clever if it's true. I'm really rather in awe of it.
But maybe that's not how it is at all. Maybe it's something else entirely. I have long had difficulty contemplating the deeper meaning of life as a hoaxer (cue cheesy violin music)... why are we here? what is our purpose? what destiny are we to achieve? and have most often come up with more questions then answers. One conclusion that does satisfy many of the Whys and Hows is the entertainment aspect. He wants to shock the world. The whole world. If we were supposed to get a heads up on the truth it would have happened by now. 2.5 years in, we have proven our worth and loyalty. We have also proven to be outspoken enough about the hoax to be rendered lunatics not to be taken seriously by the rest of the populous. I can think of no reason he has NOT to reveal to us; considering the journey he has taken us on, at this juncture... UNLESS, we are slated for some sort of [big] surprise in regards to what we THINK has been our purpose and roll here all along.
Post by: Grace on December 23, 2011, 01:20:39 AM
One of the reasons we don't get this complete scenario is our birthplace of mindset that is so hard to leave and got so well impregnated with lots of rubber coat, thanks to Mom, Dad, sisters, brothers, teachers, friends, colleagues, the media, (and of course MJ igniting the initial spark as to his personal relationship with us) LOL.
We are still and always coming from the auditorium consumer perspective.
Even in case we got over the "I am a listener to MJ songs only" while having been invited into the production backstage at recent times, even in case we got over the "I am a concert-goer only" while having been put on stage ourselves as the crazy "fan" minority since 2+ years.
This is (the / one of the) answer(s):
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=VKPiBeZOkxg[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=VKPiBeZOkxg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=VKPiBeZOkxg)
It is reciprocal. Only dimensions have changed.
We have our own scale of importance and success for the one behind the curtain.
Doesn't mean he doesn't love us dearly through the fog his machinery is constantly throwing out.
So do we.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 23, 2011, 01:42:40 AM
http://evolutionflashback.blogspot.com/2011/03/creatives-explained.html
MJ is a walking contradiction...
pure and virginal - displays of explosive sexual energy when on stage
shy and quiet - frank and direct and in fact a pioneer about his message
at times frail and ill - fraskishly fit and an amazing dancer who defies physical limits
softly spoken - yet screams and has been known to have a deeper voice at times
humble and meek - yet errects statues of himself
wants to be private - yet deliberately creates hype and puts himself in the spotlight
(by the way, none of these are negatives)
what is real what is fake?.... who knows. they are all the complexities (amongst many others) of a genius who has engineered himself into an empire, a product, a name, a mysterious character. we do not know the real mj. pepsi and 2005 trial may have been real. but you do have to admit, amongst a 30 year career of crazy antics, staged PR moments, bluffs, illusions, it is possible that other incidents such as pepsi and 2005 are fake also. if he can perfectly execute a death hoax, he can too a trial or an accident.
in fact the more MJ fakes his life the more privacy he actually has... because it means that less people know the real MJ. they know the character he plays, not the real person within - which creates for him a degree of anonimity about who he really is...
Bon Jovi -
You think you know me just because you know my name
You think you see me 'cause you've seen every line on my face
You want to want me just because I say that I want you
But does it matter if anything I'm saying is the truth
Post by: applehead250609 on December 23, 2011, 02:50:57 AM
here is a link to an interesting article in a blog. talks abt contradictions.
http://evolutionflashback.blogspot.com/2011/03/creatives-explained.html
MJ is a walking contradiction...
pure and virginal - displays of explosive sexual energy when on stage
shy and quiet - frank and direct and in fact a pioneer about his message
at times frail and ill - fraskishly fit and an amazing dancer who defies physical limits
softly spoken - yet screams and has been known to have a deeper voice at times
humble and meek - yet errects statues of himself
wants to be private - yet deliberately creates hype and puts himself in the spotlight
(by the way, none of these are negatives)
what is real what is fake?.... who knows. they are all the complexities (amongst many others) of a genius who has engineered himself into an empire, a product, a name, a mysterious character. we do not know the real mj. pepsi and 2005 trial may have been real. but you do have to admit, amongst a 30 year career of crazy antics, staged PR moments, bluffs, illusions, it is possible that other incidents such as pepsi and 2005 are fake also. if he can perfectly execute a death hoax, he can too a trial or an accident.
in fact the more MJ fakes his life the more privacy he actually has... because it means that less people know the real MJ. they know the character he plays, not the real person within - which creates for him a degree of anonimity about who he really is...
Bon Jovi -
You think you know me just because you know my name
You think you see me 'cause you've seen every line on my face
You want to want me just because I say that I want you
But does it matter if anything I'm saying is the truth
OMG I'm si happy,thank you,tahnk you from the bottom of my heart :) penguin/ !!!! You just put into words what I think also 8-) .I'm saying THE EXACYLY SAME THING for almost 1 years now albino/ !!! Talking about bashing lol lolol/ ,when I said "some things" that were not in the same TUNE,with what others THINK :mrgreen: .NObody knows the REAL Michael and ,that's for fact,lol :lol: :shock: .Michael is a MAN OF CONTRADICTION ,or better say an UNPREDICTABLE MAN albino/ 8-) .What you put into words MyWhoisit had put into her/his last 3 videos .I don't know who this person is,but to my opinion IS THE BEST on making hoax videos 8-) !!!Just 2 sentences to make an ideea of what I'm talking here :mrgreen: :
"Everything I wished I WAS MY CREATION WILL BE .Where I was SHY ,he would be AGRESSIVE,where I was COLD and WITHDRAWN ,he would be WARM and OUTGOING.Loneliness will be unknown to him......."
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRg2DxWHk5c&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlL12cs0Lu4&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube] :shock: albino/
"We had to put it all,on the FRONT PAGE,which we did THANK GOD" :shock: :shock: :lol:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjyM7yFPLMQ[/youtube]
THIS IS IT , but THIS IS NOT IT !!!!! lol lolol/ :lol: :lol: what a coincidence CONTRADITION ,isn't it :?: :mrgreen: !!!!!
Post by: MJonmind on December 23, 2011, 03:26:48 AM
And Applehead, as usual these videos give food for thought.
The comment earlier about crying wolf too often is very pertinent. This hoax is like passing through a worm-hole. None can say, MJ wouldn't do this or that. He very well could.
Quote
TS on: November 29, 2011, 10:13:17 PM »Is TS wanting us to question his siblings/parents knowing the truth? Is he calling their bluff? If Elvis only told 6 people of his faked death, not even his own father, perhaps MJ may not have told any of them anything beyond, that he hoaxed his death, and simply gave some cash incentives to go with the flow. Many people have said how it seemed MJ spent almost no time with his family in years. Is it possible that his siblings are just making up stuff as they go along. MJ may have been feeding the family bits of hoax info, on a need to know basis, similarly to how we as hoaxers have been fed certain morsels. For instance, one of the very few helping MJ, may have asked Jermaine to make the initial announcement, and so on. I'm sure that Prince and Paris (Blanket later) knew right from the start. All the family's big talk, about knowing everything and who MJ' s enemies, etc. are is fluff. Perhaps TS is chuckling a little here, with the 3 shocked smilies, knowing that they hardly know anymore than we do, except they know inside family stuff and history. They've been an entertainment family for so long, they just knew how to keep the ball rolling. And MJ has always known that they totally love getting the extra attention and fame, while now he's the one keeping a low profile. Perhaps MJ is juggling with JFMJ fans, hoaxers, family (not his kids), friends and enemies. Each smugly think they have inside information. Perhaps they don't really know who TS is either, and that's why they have not acknowledged him, aside from the J5 tweet, and maybe TS manipulated them to do it somehow. I still believe TS is MJ, and is in control/master of hoax info.
February 2010: “[Jermaine] He was very, very healthy but Michael was not with us, way before he arrived to the airport. ... But it’s all going to come out; it’s all going to unfold. [Interviewer] Do you know what it is, and you’re waiting for it to come out? [Jermaine] Yes, yes, I do. ... I know ...” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OOwLcE_6Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OOwLcE_6Q)}.
June 2010: “[Larry] Do you think we’ll ever find out the whole story? [Jermaine] Yes! Yes! You know why, because his [MJ’s] family is not going to let it not happen. We love you, we miss him; the world needs to know the truth, we need to know the truth, you need to know the truth. And, uh, absolutely; we’re going to do everything in our power as a family to make sure the world knows WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.” {1:32, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi3OiJMjilg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi3OiJMjilg)}.
February 20, 2011: “There is a due legal process we must honor. Justice first. And then it will be time for truth.” {http://twitter.com/jermjackson5/status/39409940007354368 (http://twitter.com/jermjackson5/status/39409940007354368)}.
November 16, 2011: “@latoyajackson why don’t you talk more about the real MJ’s killer..?”
{http://twitter.com/#!/_MariamFenty/status/136670562297724929 (http://twitter.com/#!/_MariamFenty/status/136670562297724929)}.
November 16, 2011: “@_MariamFenty you will DEFINITELY hear more in the near future!!!”
{http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/136671664577576960 (http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/136671664577576960)}.
November 21, 2011: “Thanking all the FANS for their support last night! Thank you so very much!!! Keep the faith!!!” {http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/138764680981262336 (http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/138764680981262336)}.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
Post by: MaryK on December 23, 2011, 03:32:28 AM
Australian MJ BeLIEver, that is a good observation of MJ the walking contradiction.
And Applehead, as usual these videos give food for thought.
The comment earlier about crying wolf too often is very pertinent. This hoax is like passing through a worm-hole. None can say, MJ wouldn't do this or that. He very well could.QuoteTS on: November 29, 2011, 10:13:17 PM »
February 2010: “[Jermaine] He was very, very healthy but Michael was not with us, way before he arrived to the airport. ... But it’s all going to come out; it’s all going to unfold. [Interviewer] Do you know what it is, and you’re waiting for it to come out? [Jermaine] Yes, yes, I do. ... I know ...” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OOwLcE_6Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OOwLcE_6Q)}.
June 2010: “[Larry] Do you think we’ll ever find out the whole story? [Jermaine] Yes! Yes! You know why, because his [MJ’s] family is not going to let it not happen. We love you, we miss him; the world needs to know the truth, we need to know the truth, you need to know the truth. And, uh, absolutely; we’re going to do everything in our power as a family to make sure the world knows WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.” {1:32, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi3OiJMjilg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi3OiJMjilg)}.
February 20, 2011: “There is a due legal process we must honor. Justice first. And then it will be time for truth.” {http://twitter.com/jermjackson5/status/39409940007354368 (http://twitter.com/jermjackson5/status/39409940007354368)}.
November 16, 2011: “@latoyajackson why don’t you talk more about the real MJ’s killer..?”
{http://twitter.com/#!/_MariamFenty/status/136670562297724929 (http://twitter.com/#!/_MariamFenty/status/136670562297724929)}.
November 16, 2011: “@_MariamFenty you will DEFINITELY hear more in the near future!!!”
{http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/136671664577576960 (http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/136671664577576960)}.
November 21, 2011: “Thanking all the FANS for their support last night! Thank you so very much!!! Keep the faith!!!” {http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/138764680981262336 (http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/138764680981262336)}.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
Is TS wanting us to question their ability to know the truth? Is he calling their bluff? If Elvis only told 6 people of his faked death, not even his own father, perhaps MJ may not have told any of his family anything beyond, that he hoaxed his death, and simply gave some cash incentives to go with the flow. Many people have said how it seemed MJ spent almost no time with his family in years. Is it possible that his siblings are just making up stuff as they go along. MJ may have been feeding the family bits of hoax info, on a need to know basis, similarly to how we as hoaxers have been fed certain morsels. I'm sure that Prince and Paris (Blanket later) knew right from the start. All the family's big talk, about knowing everything and who MJ' s enemies, etc. are is fluff. Perhaps TS is chuckling a little here, with the 3 shocked smilies, knowing that they hardly know anymore than we do, except they know inside family stuff and history. They've been an entertainment family for so long, they just knew how to keep the ball rolling.
Perhaps MJ is juggling with JFMJ fans, hoaxers, family (not his kids), friends and enemies. Each smugly think they have inside information.
MJonmind this thought has crossed my mind, too. Many times.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 23, 2011, 03:37:53 AM
Is TS wanting us to question his siblings/parents knowing the truth? Is he calling their bluff? If Elvis only told 6 people of his faked death, not even his own father, perhaps MJ may not have told any of them anything beyond, that he hoaxed his death, and simply gave some cash incentives to go with the flow. Many people have said how it seemed MJ spent almost no time with his family in years. Is it possible that his siblings are just making up stuff as they go along. MJ may have been feeding the family bits of hoax info, on a need to know basis, similarly to how we as hoaxers have been fed certain morsels. For instance, one of the very few helping MJ, may have asked Jermaine to make the initial announcement, and so on. I'm sure that Prince and Paris (Blanket later) knew right from the start. All the family's big talk, about knowing everything and who MJ' s enemies, etc. are is fluff. Perhaps TS is chuckling a little here, with the 3 shocked smilies, knowing that they hardly know anymore than we do, except they know inside family stuff and history. They've been an entertainment family for so long, they just knew how to keep the ball rolling. And MJ has always known that they totally love getting the extra attention and fame, while now he's the one keeping a low profile.
Perhaps MJ is juggling with JFMJ fans, hoaxers, family (not his kids), friends and enemies. Each smugly think they have inside information.
i have mentioned this before in the rebbie thread... i dont believe that she knows abt the hoax. again, My personal opinion for now, until i can prove to myself otherwise. you are so right MJONMIND - many people can be working for MJ. giving clues and instructions from people in the know without actually knowing themselves. (well they might know, or think they know, by putting one and one together, but perhaps not previously informed of DH by MJ himself prior to June 09)
Post by: MJonmind on December 23, 2011, 03:45:03 AM
It would be good to get the actual quote from Frank's book where he says both he and MJ had a meeting in the WTC on 9/11. Otherwise, is TS just going with LaToya and Jermaine's story, waiting to see if we can dissect for the truth. TS has always said we should not just accept what he says but search it out. :? smiley_spider
Post by: mjselfsweet on December 23, 2011, 06:39:17 AM
I've puzzled over the fact that MJ seems to have been estranged from his siblings for so many years. He loves them, of course, but holds them at arms length. But they on the other hand, are eager to show their close relationship to MJ. True friends can often be much closer than family, in sharing deeply personal dreams and aspirations. So if this is true, how does this affect how many are in on the hoax, for who went in the ambulance?
It would be good to get the actual quote from Frank's book where he says both he and MJ had a meeting in the WTC on 9/11. Otherwise, is TS just going with LaToya and Jermaine's story, waiting to see if we can dissect for the truth. TS has always said we should not just accept what he says but search it out. :? smiley_spider
i wrote a page or two back,, before all the "all of MJ's life was fake" bullshit,,, I wrote exactly what frank says in his book,, he never said him and mj had an appt at WTC, he says only he was supposed to return the items,,after the tragedy, MJ ended up w/the watch in cali, and was supposed to return it to the jeweler in cali, along w/the necklace that he only "borrowed" to give to Elizabeth, the jeweler was going to sue him over both pieces, MJ eventually returned them, and according to Frank, about a yr long riff was also created between mj and elizabeth over the way the necklace was asked to be given back, MJ didnt explain the circumstance to Elizabeth himself,, someone in mj's camp contacted her and told her she had to return it.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 23, 2011, 10:35:18 AM
Post by: Suzy7 on December 23, 2011, 08:00:17 PM
I think people are misunderstanding those who believe he did this for serious reasons along with entertainment purposes. I agree with you both bec and Aussie in regards to his "Willy Wonka" act and publicity stunts. Yes, he was and is very capable of pulling the wool over peoples eyes, faking illnesses and such much like this hoax, either to get out of something or just to prank people; but why does his whole life have to be a prank? I think that is where, unfortunately for Michael, he becomes like the boy who cried wolf because when he does want to be taken seriously and real things happen in his life; no one believes it. Just because he created an image for the media and fans does not mean he went as far as making every event a hoax. He understood in order to creat the myth he wanted and to keep the public at bay, he had to create this image that was far removed from his real self; and it is well known that his manipulated image got out of his control to the point that it ruined his reputation and career.
I would and can believe he did all of this for mere entertainment if there was proof of it being just that, but there isn't. I could also accept the Pepsi accident was a hoax without problem, IF there was evidence it was a hoax and why it would be a hoax, but of course there is none. In order to believe in something there should be some evidence pointing in that direction for a theory to have a stable foundation; and though there is none saying his whole life is a hoax, there is some saying there is a real conspiracy.
Post by: bec on December 23, 2011, 10:02:26 PM
IF he did fake it THEN he pulled it off masterfully with no one ever being the wiser. Knowing he could do something like that, visible, in front of a live audience, he must have considered the plan for 6/25/09 a walk in the park.
Knowing he faked his death makes you look closer at his other large media attention stories over his adult life. You have to consider a possible pattern of behavior. No one was more visible then MJ and so no one would know how to work the system better then him either. When other things start looking fishy, the seed of doubt begins to sprout.
We are gonna be shocked by something at the end of this, make no mistake.
Post by: Heartsong on December 23, 2011, 10:15:12 PM
Suzy, just because you refuse to acknowledge it, doesn't mean I'm not posting it. You guys can pull up the Pepsi accident thread I posted. There's a lot of excellent hard evidence that he faked it. Why did he? I don't know but maybe because it was a huge story with his name in it. Everyone loves to gawk at an accident and that one he and Miko actually could fake pretty easily. Besides, why not? Does this not fit with the MJ persona he shows us in home movies and outtakes? It's a joke, what's not to like. It's also a delightful experiment. Can he get away with it? What a rush if he did. Sometimes people just do things to have fun. Doing massive public hoaxes like this might just be fun for him. If you had the money and the means and you were a practical joker at heart, wouldn't you try something? The media are just whores for a story. It would be like sport to play with them. And who would suspect MJ? Look at him. Pure and innocent as new fallen snow, he is.
IF he did fake it THEN he pulled it off masterfully with no one ever being the wiser. Knowing he could do something like that, visible, in front of a live audience, he must have considered the plan for 6/25/09 a walk in the park.
Lol, he probably did fake it. He never like Pepsi anyway and never wanted to do the commercial. One sure way to get out of it!
Post by: bec on December 23, 2011, 10:33:43 PM
At this point, MJ had to know exactly what he was doing and exactly how bad that looked. He gave Bashir the perfect long dramatic pause in his sentence "yes of course he sleeps in my bed...(long drawn out -->edit me right here news crew!<-- pause) I sleep on the floor." This is 2002. MJ has been on FBI surveillance for some time at this point. Of course he would know that. He knows the DA is foaming at the mouth to get him some how some way, so it seems to me as sort of a taunt by MJ. It's like he waved a red flag in front of the bull. No matter how that scene was edited in the end, it was bad for MJ. I can't believe he made that kind of mistake nor that he was that naive about people.
I also don't believe that his sleepovers weren't 100% on surveillance film, logged and filed and archived forever after that 1993 scam. For someone who's whole house is wired, I don't believe MJ would be foolish enough to leave himself wide open for another allegation like that when prevention would be directly at his fingertips. Again, allegations notoriously difficult to disprove... CCTV would disprove them in just the amount of time needed to review the tape.
So maybe he was sick of the FBI following him around. Maybe he was sick of living under the stigma. Maybe he was sick of the jokes and innuendos and the fact that his career in his home country was being destroyed by this crap and maybe he decided to do something about it. Maybe he thought that a big public trial where he was CLEARLY innocent would FIX everything. If so, he was wrong.
If you live your life by playing the media like marionettes, there has to be some element of win some/lose some. The spin doesn't always work out and the reverse psychology sometimes reverses again. You figure the media manipulates the public which feed the media by buying the best story, driving the manipulation. When you try to manipulate the media to get a desired response from the public, you are attempting to set into motion a domino effect of sorts. Sometimes everything goes smoothly according to plan, and the chips fall as they were intended, the people are caused to feel a certain way by the story you create. But if you misjudge the public tide, and don't give them what they want, the media will go rogue and make up what they want (need) to sell.
Again, I don't know. But perhaps MJ was so into the idea of "proving" his innocence publicly that he forgot the first rule of his own game, good news doesn't sell. You figure it would be very easy to get too personal with that project. I'm not sure how he could keep a professional distance between the project and his agenda enough to succeed. It would be very tricky to pull off.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 24, 2011, 12:29:21 AM
I did read that thread quite a while ago and didn't see enough strong evidence to convince me of a hoax; unlike his death which has much evidence proving it didn't occur, which is why I believe it to be a hoax. My opinion.
I agree on other points, but I don't think he would have gone through all of that just to prove his innocence, given this hoax was planned long before that to essentially do the same thing. Change perceptions.
Post by: bec on December 24, 2011, 12:56:53 AM
Post by: Grace on December 24, 2011, 01:10:17 AM
If you live your life by playing the media like marionettes, there has to be some element of win some/lose some. The spin doesn't always work out and the reverse psychology sometimes reverses again. You figure the media manipulates the public which feed the media by buying the best story, driving the manipulation. When you try to manipulate the media to get a desired response from the public, you are attempting to set into motion a domino effect of sorts. Sometimes everything goes smoothly according to plan, and the chips fall as they were intended, the people are caused to feel a certain way by the story you create. But if you misjudge the public tide, and don't give them what they want, the media will go rogue and make up what they want (need) to sell.
If we look at the consequences of 06/25/2009, same applies.
He must have thought the whole domino panorama in advance.
Potential (and real) media reaction would vary from "hot, hotter, the hottest - get some pics and commentators" to "what's in the archive" hectic to "damn, now we have to shut up about him" to "another dollar bill printer gone - time to build up new cash cows" to "OMG I have to write about MJ and know nothing about him because I'm only 21" to ...
Potential (and real) public reactions would vary from "fan suicide" to sobbing to screaming to "I don't believe this" to "how could he do this to me?" to "poor victim" to "J4M" to etc. ...
Some said "thank God he's finally gone", some spew after Michael, some continued to mock him.
We've seen all that (except that I don't believe in the alleged fan suicides).
Anything new in the above compared to when he was a "living dead"? Not really.
Did he care? I guess so, but it's certainly also a matter of priorities when it comes to take an existential decision to disappear from the visual stage.
I am convinced that Michael thought of every domino trail in advance, including the suckers and leeches, the carpet crawlers, flag wavers, fainters, yellers, haters, mockers, the wrongdoers, the "hide my a**ers", the "I want your money" law (suit) producers, the "angelmakers", the greedy and the needy, his colleagues, friends, loved one, the media, the fans and the hoaxers and who else would turn out to want to share a past, present and/or future relationship on which ever level with MJJ.
I still think MJHD was part of executing the plan as an initial observation hot spot to find out how the living would think and treat the "dead". Fan barometer. Clinical thermometer to check the fever and heat. (We're still in that think tank LOL - hi Michael! still enjoy? Some other smart cooks showed a ressembling mindset btw. :mrgreen: )
Maybe Michael got surprised by the small and ever shrinking number of questioning and diving folks.
Maybe he was not surprised and thought more in terms of "quality" than of "quantity" as to the depth of involvement. In all cases, I think he thought it through but certainly could not predict all the twists the story did actually take.
One cannot rehearse a death - well most of the times one cannot - so there will be effects and issues that will need to be handled on a day-by-day basis when occurring. Elizabeth's death was not predictable and a very sad momentum to be dealt with. I still miss her despite I never met her.
"To die will be an awfully big adventure".
Remember this?
Quote
Artwork “To die will be an awfully big adventure” created by Högni Valur Högnason (http://www.hognivalur.com/) is final project from the Icelandic Academy of the Arts. It discovers theme of deaths in our life. As you could notice it consist of three pieces. The first one is about childish innocence, second one is about love and third one is about death itself.http://www.beautifullife.info/art-works/to-die-will-be-an-awfully-big-adventure/ (http://www.beautifullife.info/art-works/to-die-will-be-an-awfully-big-adventure/)
(http://www.beautifullife.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/01/general.jpg)
(http://www.beautifullife.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/01/02.jpg)
(http://www.beautifullife.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/01/03.jpg)
(http://www.beautifullife.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/01/04.jpg)
I still think this artwork fits well.
Thought provoking:
did the public manipulate Michael into dying for getting the kind of story they wanted the media to produce for them?
Is tabloid trash / a fan-star relationship a matter of hen & egg?
How dependent is an artist on the public's attention and response?
We should ask Michael what he's thinking about cause and effect in this. I guess he'd show a huge smile.
Blessings to all.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 24, 2011, 02:01:14 AM
Post by: MJonmind on December 24, 2011, 02:13:57 AM
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MjselfsweetOk this seems odd to mention about jewelry that MJ "gave"/borrowed to Liz, in Frank's book.
I wrote exactly what frank says in his book,, he never said him and mj had an appt at WTC, he says only he was supposed to return the items,,after the tragedy, MJ ended up w/the watch in cali, and was supposed to return it to the jeweler in cali, along w/the necklace that he only "borrowed" to give to Elizabeth, the jeweler was going to sue him over both pieces, MJ eventually returned them, and according to Frank, about a yr long riff was also created between mj and elizabeth over the way the necklace was asked to be given back, MJ didnt explain the circumstance to Elizabeth himself,, someone in mj's camp contacted her and told her she had to return it.
In the Life of an Icon, by David Gest, at the premiere he also makes a point of talking about this same jewelry. There must be some significance if it is mentioned twice. Anyone have any idea? After watching his docu on Nov.3, I made this comment.
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It really upset me that he told the story of the 2001 performance in New York, and that the only way MJ could get Liz Taylor to come was when he bought her some very expensive jewelry. Would MJ have ever said something like that?I know there was also an auction for LT's jewelry. http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21688.msg379260#msg379260 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21688.msg379260#msg379260)
On the topic of MJ planning more than just the DH, the Pepsi fire was in the middle of his life to the day. Even the chances of randomly getting a certain number of days like 9282 which add to 21 and end up being 777 are difficult. What are the odds mathematically? Why hasn't TS touched on this?
On the 2005 case, Back has said MJ has been planning this death hoax for over 20 years. Love and hate are very close. Would MJ have understood the need of extreme hatred for him, to be a more shocking backdrop for a death hoax, and a comeback against ALL odds, that would literally be bigger than anything ever done in earth’s history. The further down you fall the harder to climb back up and soar, which he has and will do. Someone a while back mentioned how MJ's case drew attention to sexually abused children around the world, even by high ranking people. MJ's powerful love for children, and the pain in his own childhood, would see this as a means to stop this cruelty. Perhaps laws have changed for the good behind the scenes because of MJ's 2005 court case.
Post by: bec on December 24, 2011, 02:24:35 AM
On the topic of MJ planning more than just the DH, the Pepsi fire was in the middle of his life to the day. Even the chances of randomly getting a certain number of days like 9282 which add to 21 and end up being 777 are difficult. What are the odds mathematically? Why hasn't TS touched on this?
A great point I forgot to mention.
Deeming him innocent because there are people out to get him and the media is corrupt, are apart of the domino effect. So because of that, I dont believe he would have staged the trial.
Could you rephrase this, I don't understand.
Post by: PureLove on December 24, 2011, 02:28:42 AM
And during those trials Michael went through hell! You are also saying that he was lying in all those interviews he made about what he had to go through. You guys are definitely confusing fact and fiction. And yesterday Michael gave the answer to you guys on his official page. This is just an 'IN YO FACE' moment but of course the ones living in an exaggerated hoax fantasy world wouldn't get this as a clue.
(http://www.michaeljackson.com/sites/mjackson/files/12-22-Right-On.jpg)
Michael Jackson: We Separate Fact from Fiction.
Post by: bec on December 24, 2011, 02:30:57 AM
Separate fact (real) from fiction (movie) :lol:
Post by: Suzy7 on December 24, 2011, 02:53:12 AM
The Pepsi accident happening in the exact mid-point of his life, does not prove it to be a hoax; but a possible conspiracy. So it only proves his death was planned and the "accident" was most likely done on purpose.
Purelove who are we referring to?
Post by: MichaelsAngel on December 24, 2011, 02:59:03 AM
Post by: bec on December 24, 2011, 03:08:38 AM
If one is to argue that the 9282 days is explainable as a conspiracy using MJ's own numerology against him, you might as well apply the same logic to the DH numerology and conclude that MJ is dead and we are all chasing our tails here.
Post by: Suzy7 on December 24, 2011, 03:23:10 AM
If some want to believe no one was ever after the biggest star in the world, you can believe that.
Post by: Magic_Love_4U on December 24, 2011, 04:36:05 AM
Just to make it even clearer lol, he did not fake his death to prove his innocence as the planning for this hoax began before any allegations. Instead, his BAM will help further prove the conspiracy that exists in the media/government, and he will be deemed innocent as a by-product of this hoax. Understand? Which is why there was no point for the trial to be fake to clear his name, as this hoax will do that anyway.
The Pepsi accident happening in the exact mid-point of his life, does not prove it to be a hoax; but a possible conspiracy. So it only proves his death was planned and the "accident" was most likely done on purpose.
Agreed.
Michael Jackson said in a Geraldo interview 2005 - The bigger the star the bigger the target -
Dave Chapelle said in an interview, not exact words - The more money you are worth the more controlled you are -
Michael Jackson has said so many times that conspiracy have been going around surronding him, he has said people was after his cataloge, he has said he's been afraid to say to much.
Omar sang in his song - The bigger the star the bigger the target -
Michael has said to his family that he was afraid They woould kill him.
Michael Jackson said that since Thriller all of this started to happen, how they started to attack him etc.
When are people going to take this serious, it is serious even if Michael Jackson isn't alive. The people in control must be stopped. Michael is not a deciver, a liar, a manipulator nor a hoaxer. This is not a movie and it is not a game. This is reality!
Post by: Coco on December 24, 2011, 08:10:48 AM
We are gonna be shocked by something at the end of this, make no mistake.
THIS. I have a feeling, he could turn out to be different from what many make him out to be or believe him to be...
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 24, 2011, 09:05:55 AM
Post by: RK on December 24, 2011, 10:28:02 AM
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To believe that would make him an imposter by design. It would mean questioning everything he stood for and accomplished. Were his charitable donations a farce? Was his compassion and love for children a lie?There is a saying. Put your money where your mouth is. That Michael did. Well over 300 million [and that is the money we know of] that he gave. Actions speak louder than words. No farce there. We are like small fish staring at the big boys of the ocean and thinking we can rightly decipher what it is like to swim the sharks. We can only imagine how that level of greed, corruption and the love of money can muddy the waters. The people MJ associated with would automatically bring him within danger zones. From the time he spent on the phone with Diana , to rubbing shoulders with rulers and presidents of nations all over the world. I remember stories of MJ visiting orphanages that were so putrid with the smell of urine, he would contact those in authority and demand clean linen and food for the children or there would be no performance. I can imagine those leaders were fearful that their shame would be plastered all over the news and papers and so they complied. But with much resentment I'm sure. Where big money is concerned, there is organized crime wanting a slice of the pie, from lowly thugs who do the dirty work through to some royalty who have no qualms about murdering people who they can no longer control [coughdianacough] I believe the 2005 trial was very real and was designed to threaten and intimidate Michael by showing him what 'they' were capable of doing to him.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 24, 2011, 03:10:52 PM
Sometimes I wish Michael and his brothers had continued as a group. Him doing his own thing, but still a part of the group. I know that’s not a popular opinion here, but many days I have often wished that they had.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 24, 2011, 04:36:09 PM
here is a link to an interesting article in a blog. talks abt contradictions.
http://evolutionflashback.blogspot.com/2011/03/creatives-explained.html
MJ is a walking contradiction...
pure and virginal - displays of explosive sexual energy when on stage
shy and quiet - frank and direct and in fact a pioneer about his message
at times frail and ill - fraskishly fit and an amazing dancer who defies physical limits
softly spoken - yet screams and has been known to have a deeper voice at times
humble and meek - yet errects statues of himself
wants to be private - yet deliberately creates hype and puts himself in the spotlight
(by the way, none of these are negatives)
what is real what is fake?.... who knows. they are all the complexities (amongst many others) of a genius who has engineered himself into an empire, a product, a name, a mysterious character. we do not know the real mj. pepsi and 2005 trial may have been real. but you do have to admit, amongst a 30 year career of crazy antics, staged PR moments, bluffs, illusions, it is possible that other incidents such as pepsi and 2005 are fake also. if he can perfectly execute a death hoax, he can too a trial or an accident.
in fact the more MJ fakes his life the more privacy he actually has... because it means that less people know the real MJ. they know the character he plays, not the real person within - which creates for him a degree of anonimity about who he really is...
Bon Jovi -
You think you know me just because you know my name
You think you see me 'cause you've seen every line on my face
You want to want me just because I say that I want you
But does it matter if anything I'm saying is the truth
Yes it is obvious MJ is a walking contradiction. 100%.
Yet I believe now things are a little different. I think only now we see his real self and concerns. that's why we were asked to discover the man we never knew.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 25, 2011, 01:04:59 AM
We are gonna be shocked by something at the end of this, make no mistake.
THIS. I have a feeling, he could turn out to be different from what many make him out to be or believe him to be...
same completely agree. i think that when he bams he will reveal the real MJ. all of the negative stuff ever said abt him will be instantly reconciled because the world will realise that what he put out there was a figment a character that he designed for us. not the real mj..
also just want to say, in my prev posts, though i supported the idea the MJ has faked some of his life to the media, i didnt actually say that he definitely faked pepsi burn and 2005 trial. just saying it is a possibility when it comes to mike. i personally am not sure what i believe regards that. but learning more and more about him, his antics and his familiy verifying he played us and media, then it makes me think anything is possible....
Post by: MJonmind on December 25, 2011, 05:09:46 AM
It’s impossible for me to believe that everything that was reported to have happened to Michael throughout his 40 + years of entertaining us was faked. To believe that would make him an imposter by design. It would mean questioning everything he stood for and accomplished. Were his charitable donations a farce? Was his compassion and love for children a lie? Did he really mean that he loved us more or was the joke on us? Was anything about him real? I can’t go there. I have followed Michael for years and years and many of those milestones, the good, the bad, and the ugly, I remember as if it was yesterday and suffered with him. No. I don’t insinuate that I know him better than anyone else, maybe not as well even as many. But I know what I saw and if it was all for show then I’ve lived a lie for all these years and have wasted much of my energy loving and hurting for someone who succeeded in taking the kindness and real human emotions of billions for a joke. I do not believe it. I don’t feel it. And so for me, it just isn’t so. If we are to believe as he wanted us to that he was only human, then we accept that bad things oftentimes happen to good people. No one is immune to it. The trials and that burn in my opinion did happen and Michael was changed by both of them. My truth is that I have always felt that these things didn’t “just happen” and thus Michael came to realize that he could not innocently trust anyone and he could never take at face value that people had his best interest at heart. Trust died and the new Michael was born.
I understand your point and concern. However, we know for a fact (at least most of us) that he faked his death even though millions mourn him terribly. Some lies told may have a greater purpose done out of love. MJ very early on said he tried to put some magic/illusions in everything he did; he distributed the book by P.T. Barnum to every one of his employees shortly after Thriller, saying it was how he wanted to base his life on. MJ said he wanted to give them (us all) escapism, the greatest show on earth, to tell stories that would grip our hearts. NONE of the things MJ has done have been out of hate, selfishness, desire for greed, but on the contrary, even if these events were staged, it is certain that he still suffered greatly going through it all. Jesus knew in advance what was his assigned role and suffered through it all.
MJ may or may not have staged the Pepsi fire, and the 2005 trial, but that does not take anything away from this most selfless, giving, creative, beautiful man. We have absolutely NO idea what he has gone through in his life, at the elite level he lived. Someone mentioned him visiting orphanages that reeked of urine and unsanitary conditions. This man is complex to the extreme and simply cannot be put into a box. Pure love is what he is; it's just that we don't quite understand some of his methodology, since it's so different than regular people, celebs, and uses such long term strategizing with its delayed gratification. That, I believe, takes great strength, courage, annointed calling, genius, selflessness, tremendous love and caring. Every day as I learn things, I fall in love with him more!!
Post by: bec on December 25, 2011, 08:59:05 AM
Post by: PureLove on December 25, 2011, 09:01:20 AM
That statement can go both ways, PureLove, you realize that, right?
Separate fact (real) from fiction (movie) :lol:
This picture was posted on the 22nd just after I made those posts to you and to others on the 19th and on the 22nd where I wrote about separating fact from fiction. And we all know what fiction I was talking about. As I wrote before, I do not believe in coincidences in this hoax and I do not get this one as a coincidence either. We got many clues from Michael's official page and this is just one of them. So to me no, it's not the way you realize and interpret it.
Post by: PureLove on December 25, 2011, 09:07:39 AM
It’s impossible for me to believe that everything that was reported to have happened to Michael throughout his 40 + years of entertaining us was faked. To believe that would make him an imposter by design. It would mean questioning everything he stood for and accomplished. Were his charitable donations a farce? Was his compassion and love for children a lie? Did he really mean that he loved us more or was the joke on us? Was anything about him real? I can’t go there. I have followed Michael for years and years and many of those milestones, the good, the bad, and the ugly, I remember as if it was yesterday and suffered with him. No. I don’t insinuate that I know him better than anyone else, maybe not as well even as many. But I know what I saw and if it was all for show then I’ve lived a lie for all these years and have wasted much of my energy loving and hurting for someone who succeeded in taking the kindness and real human emotions of billions for a joke. I do not believe it. I don’t feel it. And so for me, it just isn’t so. If we are to believe as he wanted us to that he was only human, then we accept that bad things oftentimes happen to good people. No one is immune to it. The trials and that burn in my opinion did happen and Michael was changed by both of them. My truth is that I have always felt that these things didn’t “just happen” and thus Michael came to realize that he could not innocently trust anyone and he could never take at face value that people had his best interest at heart. Trust died and the new Michael was born.
/bravo/ Perfectly said hesouttamylife.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 25, 2011, 11:30:15 AM
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We were told by I think Frank Dileo that MJ wanted the stories of the hyperbaric chamber and elephant man bones sent to the media. However MJ told Oprah and others that the stories were ridiculous and that the press just makes up stuff to sell newspapers :shock: . Separating fact from fiction--now there's the rub /pull hair/
Michael Jackson is not to be trusted mj_bad/.
Randy Taraborelli wrote the same thing - that Michael planted the stories into the media. But Michael himself denies it to Oprah. I love the way he created confusions/contradictions all the time. :mrgreen: ::) ::)
"I don't wanna talk about it/Let's talk about it!"
Post by: MJonmind on December 25, 2011, 10:00:13 PM
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Michael Jackson is not to be trusted mj_bad/
No, only loved and admired :-* !
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 26, 2011, 12:06:04 AM
And he mangages to keep all the MJ forums argue/ bow/ /judge/ OMG! /scream/ WTF?? bangbang crash/ :lol: !LOL!QuoteMichael Jackson is not to be trusted mj_bad/
No, only loved and admired :-* !
I keep telling my husband Michael's life is such a great lesson! We study it for so long and yet we don't know his little tricks as good as we think. Some of them are dirty :twisted: but I'm loving it ::)!!
Post by: Tink on December 30, 2011, 12:01:48 AM
I do believe that you'll find a match.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 30, 2011, 12:01:08 PM
Post by: suesuzzfaithkeeper on December 30, 2011, 12:19:36 PM
huggs n love n faith to all bearhug
suzz
Post by: voiceforthesilent on December 30, 2011, 09:51:24 PM
Level 3 answer: They were updating the wax dummies at Madam Tussauds, and other wax museums. ONE of them contained an older Michael Jackson, laying down. rr/
I do believe that you'll find a match.
Thank you for sharing with us your insight into the entertainment industry, Michael, his circle of friends, etc., etc., You bring new ideas to consider as well and I appreciate this. Thank you. Is your thought on the dummy being from Madam Tussaud's a theory or is it for fact?
Blessings
Post by: Tink on December 31, 2011, 04:03:30 PM
They first sold off the Hollywood Wax museum figures in 2005. Some were left.
The MJ one sold definitely, is from the Bad era.
The second sale was in April 2009 - this gets confusing, because the Madam Tussaurd sale and the original Julien sale times were about the same time frame.
The laying down one, I guess they just replaced it, it wasn't sold? Thus far, haven't found it again.
Also, the one MJ statue sold was from the Bad era that you can find that was definitely sold then, for just under $40K. You can take any statue, and put it on its back. The facial sculpt is important, the body of it is not.
The one that's in Michael's collection is this one: http://www.mjjcollectors.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=9803&category_id=258&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=136
Many of the SFX people here in Hollywood are artists, so they can alter just about anything. That arm is on a figure, the head is separate. I've seen some...amazing things done, lol. Like, in 2 hours, if someone wanted a copy of an original from a film set. Just a bucket of silicon casting solution, and the mold was made, as I just watched in bemused silence. It was handed back to the studio dude, no one the wiser. Yeah, THAT FAST something can be made.
All I could find at the different locations, is a slide show. I found the latest MJ figure at Hong Kong, but not the oldest one, sorry: http://www.examiner.com/celebrity-travel-in-national/michael-jackson-wax-figures-around-the-worldpicture#slide=7513266
Post by: Sandal8259 on January 01, 2012, 08:02:59 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on January 02, 2012, 01:01:30 AM
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I am a fan of Michael Jackson. But I would never invade his privacy like that, mainly because I do not want someone to do that to me.
I wouldn't either but not for the reason you stated above.
Post by: MJonmind on January 02, 2012, 02:01:32 AM
Welcome to the forum! Sandal8259
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I have a question that I was pondering for a while. It is in regards to "The Body" that was taken to the hospital and the infamous ambulance photo. Did Michael not have a 3D scanning done in 1996 and adding to that Mr. Von Hagens and the plastination. So who is to say that Michael with a help of some special was able to pull off the impossible.
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Michael Jackson had 3D scans made of his body in what may have been a plan to build a virtual reality double of himself, the Daily Star (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/posts/view/107958/Jacko-is-brought-back-from-the-dead-in-3D-/)[size=78%] reports.[/size]
The 3D scan data of the "King Of Pop" was taken in 1997, when the star was 37 years-old, and was put on sale for over $1 million by an anonymous seller.
According to the Daily Star, the seller note (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/posts/view/107958/Jacko-is-brought-back-from-the-dead-in-3D-/)d. The thing about this data is it immortalised him at the age of 37, before his nose was disfigured and when he was in the prime of life.
The Daily Star reports that the imaging could be uses for a 'reincarnation' of Jacko, such as a "robot twin":Now scientists say following his death on June 25, the eerie images could be used to bring him back in music videos, computer games and even movies.
3D scan data of Michael Jackson was posted (http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/ebay-watch-1-5-million-michael-jackson-3d-scan-data-from-1996?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techeblog+%28TechEBlog+-+Latest+Tech+and+Gadget+News%29&utm_content=Google+Reader) for sale on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/Michael-Jackson-3D-scan-data-from-1996_W0QQitemZ120491805243QQihZ002QQcategoryZ435QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m444QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DCRX%26its%3DC%252BS%26itu%3DSI%252BUA%252BLM%252BLA%26otn%3D1%26ps%3D63), although this was not confirmed to be the same data referenced in the Daily Star article.
The seller auctioning (http://cgi.ebay.com/Michael-Jackson-3D-scan-data-from-1996_W0QQitemZ120491805243QQihZ002QQcategoryZ435QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m444QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DCRX%26its%3DC%252BS%26itu%3DSI%252BUA%252BLM%252BLA%26otn%3D1%26ps%3D63) the item -- titled "Michael Jackson 3D Scan Data From 1996" and selling for $1.5 million -- included pictures of the scans, as well as this description: The original 3D scan data of Michael Jackson. This scan data was collected when he was 37 years old in 1996 and Michael was in the prime of his career. It also includes the color map from this scan in either CPV or UV maps.
This data was collected using the same equipment that creates the data used to create video games and or CGI avatars to make him speak, laugh, sing or dance. To make him dance just add a body double avatar. It can also be used for the most accurate collectable memorabilia which can be manipulated to any expression or pose.
The seller also noted that "the sale of this scan data is subject to the purchaser agreeing to clear the proper rights with the MJ Estate before it is publicly used in a promotional or commercial manner."
The eBay item included these pictures with the listing, as well as a link to a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZADLzgbxhM&feature=channel) that is reportedly an animation made from the scans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZADLzgbxhM&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZADLzgbxhM&feature=player_embedded)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/13/michael-jackson-planned-r_n_356674.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/13/michael-jackson-planned-r_n_356674.html)
Since MJ's alive and this 3D scan doesn't look very true-to-life, I would bet that MJ has the real scan in his safekeeping.
Sandal8259, how are you suggesting MJ used this scan to provide a 'body' for the hoax ambulance ride?
Post by: Sandal8259 on January 02, 2012, 11:40:44 AM
I know that there is a connection some where with the plastination and the 3D Scan and throwing in FX. I just thought of something. Didn't Mr. Winston died in 2008. He is the infamous Special FX gentleman that work with Michael on his video Ghost. Let's just say that Michael and Mr. Winston was working on a project before Mr. Winston died in 2008. The questions that I think needs to be addressed is how long was Michael working on the Dome Project.
Post by: Tink on January 02, 2012, 02:19:35 PM
About the Pepsi burn issue and how it happened in the middle of Michael's life, Michael arranged this hoax into the very little details and he arranged the date which we say numerology part of the hoax too. So, why would it be too hard for him to consider the Pepsi burn also when he was arranging the date of this hoax?That statement can go both ways, PureLove, you realize that, right?
Separate fact (real) from fiction (movie) :lol:
The burn was for REAL, it hurt him horribly. Thank goodness someone noticed! Unless you've ever had a Fro, understand this: it takes gels, and other chemicals, that become FUEL, when exposed to flame, so it was burning DOWN and OUTward. Grabbing a coat to put it out was a brilliant idea! The pirotechnician made a horrible miscalculation. We're not talking about an "owie" from burning your finger in the oven. It was significant! I think this is when his empathy for children really kicked in, and the thoughtful, quiet Michael began to emerge.
Post by: bec on January 02, 2012, 02:29:32 PM
Oh and ps. no one here knows if that burn was for real or not. All we can do is look at the facts in the case and speculate from there.
Post by: suesuzzfaithkeeper on January 02, 2012, 03:10:09 PM
huggs n love n faith to all
suzz
Post by: Tink on January 08, 2012, 03:19:26 AM
First of all sorry for my English because it is not my native language.
Well, little anticipating a level 7b, for me it would make sense is that the June 25, 2009 was an ambulance in Carolwood, picking up a dummy size, weight and appearance as MJ, and take him to UCLA.
Due to the photo of the ambulance was made prior to 25J, Ben Evenstad only needed to "simulate" that he took the picture shown and play a role in the eyes of the people, and begin with the public spectacle.
This really does explain why it carried something (the dummy) from UCLA to the CORONER, and this also would explain the photos that were shown at trial, at UCLA and the autopsy, in which the alleged MJ's body had no belly button! (like a dummy)
I took the washed out photo into photoshop. I darkened it globally, and guess what? There's the outy belly button. It was intentionally stretched, and then lightened for effect. I made mine more realistic - I just don't know how to upload it.
Post by: TS_comments on January 11, 2012, 03:11:25 PM
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
Post by: GINAFELICIA on January 11, 2012, 03:15:06 PM
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.Sign 7 ?? This is new.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
At least to me. What is it?
Post by: _Anna_ on January 11, 2012, 03:21:50 PM
We were also promised level 7 will be done before November 29th 2011, even if he had to finish it alone.
Post by: Sarahli on January 11, 2012, 03:22:50 PM
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
Hi TS, funny that I was just on MJ's facebook page and today it's about puzzles and I thought to myself TS will post today!!! Coincidence? :shock:
Michael Jackson
Collectible flashback: Who has one of these vintage MJ Puzzle Forms?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/392614_10150533887011473_19691681472_8643043_546118498_n.jpg)
party/
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on January 11, 2012, 03:23:39 PM
Post by: Sarahli on January 11, 2012, 03:32:45 PM
I remember he said that Update 7 will be only after the BAM. Now there is something else after the Update 7. Sign 7. The word "sign" doesn't sound like something that happens after the BAM... It sounds more like another level, other clue. I thought we won't need clues and signs after Michael comes back. I thought everything would be clear when he comes back, so we can act firmly on a base, on some reality and facts. What sign is there after the BAM?
We were also promised level 7 will be done before November 29th 2011, even if he had to finish it alone.
Maybe that Sign 7 has to do with the project TS and Front were talking about.
Post by: BeTheChange on January 11, 2012, 03:46:15 PM
party/
Hurry back TS! bearhug
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on January 11, 2012, 03:53:47 PM
Or maybe the 'Sign' will be like the Star of Bethlehem...illuminating the location of the BAM party :lol:
party/
Still dreaming of that party :lol:?
There will be no party if the end is coming.
Post by: BeTheChange on January 11, 2012, 03:59:50 PM
penguin/
I'm ready to party...anytime, anywhere /woohoo/
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on January 11, 2012, 04:06:18 PM
Post by: bec on January 12, 2012, 01:07:16 AM
:?
that's it?
suspicious//
Post by: curls on January 12, 2012, 01:54:04 AM
And when I read this:
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
I can't help but be reminded of this:
However, we will finish no later than November 29--even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).
Just saying! I don't pin any hopes on any dates any more.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on January 12, 2012, 02:14:41 AM
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
there we go doubters, TS has promised (yet again!!!) that it will be completed in due time.
i think we can respectfull put to rest any TS doubts.
this time of the year, ppl are still on vacation, doing things with family, busy, etc etc. it will happen.
its not all just about us hoaxers. there are others to be considered in all this to and a plethora of reasons of why updates, levels, signs and bam have been delayed.
all things will happen in due time. not at any time. at the appointed time. NOT our preferred time.
take comfort in knowing, that we will know everything that we need to know. but only at the right time.
meanwhile TS, if you have taken the effort to log in and write us a message... can't you throw us a little more than that???
throw us a bone. we have your back. no need to worry about that. its just that we are tired of fending off the haters and trolls /pull hair/
Post by: _Anna_ on January 12, 2012, 03:39:21 AM
If he wanted he would have found time, even to post one post and wrap the level 7. He said he would finish it alone without any help if it was the case. He clearly doesn't want to. Where there is will there is time.
I agree with curls, once a promise is not kept, then any other promise doesn't hold weight anymore.
I will just post this very true quote:
"Don't say you don't have enough time. You have exactly the same number of hours per day that were given to Helen Keller, Pasteur, Michelangelo, Mother Teresa, Leonardo Da Vinci, Thomas Jefferson, and Albert Einstein"
Post by: MJonmind on January 12, 2012, 03:48:45 AM
(http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0905/patience-life-time-day-game-dice-gambler-choice-death-demotivational-poster-1243694273.jpg)
Wouldn’t there be 7 signs, starting first with Sign #1? Then perhaps the Update 7, Level 7, and Sign 7 will all coincide at the BAM-- just like Revelation’s 7 seals, 7 bowls, and 7 trumpets culminate with the return of Christ.
Quote
11. Eleven Thirty
I have titled this post update #6.5 (not update #7), because this is primarily a continuation of update #6. And yes, it’s also because I said that update #7 will probably be after BAM. Does this mean that there will still be more updates and/or posts, before update #7 (6.6, 6.7, 6.8, 6.9, 6.95, 6.96, 6.999, etc)? I won’t say absolutely no, but most likely not.
Repeatedly, I’ve said that I would not do much if any more (posts or redirects); but I kept watching, and I saw a need and wanted to help. But now, it has come to the point where I would rather say and do no more, than continue causing endless controversy that is not going anywhere.
I will be watching, and if anyone wants to make a serious attempt at the $999 reward: I will certainly either respond to it or else send the money; but they must be serious calculations. Other than that, I am not obligated to do any redirects or posts; it is my own choice, and no amount of complaints or anything else is going to force me to post again. If I have been wrong on anything, time will tell. And if I’ve been right, time will also tell—the truth will prevail.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=16148.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=16148.0)
Post by: MJonmind on January 12, 2012, 03:59:49 AM
Hi TS, funny that I was just on MJ's facebook page and today it's about puzzles and I thought to myself TS will post today!!! Coincidence? :shock:
Michael Jackson
Collectible flashback: Who has one of these vintage MJ Puzzle Forms?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/392614_10150533887011473_19691681472_8643043_546118498_n.jpg)
party/
(http://991.com/newGallery/Michael-Jackson-Puzzleforms-92483.jpg)
30 pieces to put together? Are things going to get harder? Previously we had 4 pieces. ;)
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Level%207/Puzzle2.jpg)
Post by: curls on January 12, 2012, 06:52:02 AM
I agree with curls, once a promise is not kept, then any other promise doesn't hold weight anymore.
That's not really what I meant Anna. I was looking at it more from the perspective of: if 'things' got in the way of TS completing level 7 in the timeframe he indicated, then who's to say 'things' won't also prevent 2012 from panning out as we have been led to believe it will?
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on January 12, 2012, 06:59:05 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on January 12, 2012, 11:38:13 AM
"Don't say you don't have enough time. You have exactly the same number of hours per day that were given to Helen Keller, Pasteur, Michelangelo, Mother Teresa, Leonardo Da Vinci, Thomas Jefferson, and Albert Einstein"
I like this quote.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on January 12, 2012, 02:41:25 PM
Quote from: Front
They were promised a place of "milk & honey" (Exodus 3). This was certainly not a case of "instant gratification"--not by a LONG stretch. There was no milk and honey served to them on a silver platter. And where was this land that was spoken of, "flowing with milk and honey"? They could not see it…but they believed. They pressed on, continuing to Trust in God. They bolstered their faith --- and they never lost hope. It took many years before they finally reached their destination. BUT--- they had enough to survive the journey.
Bottom line: They didn't get what they wanted, when they wanted it…..but they got what they needed, when they needed it.
:?
Post by: bec on January 12, 2012, 02:47:16 PM
Quote from: FrontThey were promised a place of "milk & honey" (Exodus 3). This was certainly not a case of "instant gratification"--not by a LONG stretch. There was no milk and honey served to them on a silver platter. And where was this land that was spoken of, "flowing with milk and honey"? They could not see it…but they believed. They pressed on, continuing to Trust in God. They bolstered their faith --- and they never lost hope. It took many years before they finally reached their destination. BUT--- they had enough to survive the journey.
Bottom line: They didn't get what they wanted, when they wanted it…..but they got what they needed, when they needed it.
:?
Yes we got our explanation for what happened with Level 7 from Front. It's a good explanation, and I accept it, doesn't mean we have to be particularly thrilled with it, but it's part of the ride so giddy up.
Post by: paula-c on January 12, 2012, 06:31:38 PM
Quote
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
what is that? ....Sign 7
Post by: bec on January 12, 2012, 06:42:50 PM
2011 was the year of the Levels.
2010 was the year of the Updates.
Post by: BeTheChange on January 12, 2012, 06:57:44 PM
If that's the case, was the TS/Front/Back 'validation' the 1st Sign?
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: MJonmind on January 15, 2012, 05:59:50 AM
Quote
Matthew 24:31
30Andthen shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
In technological splendor!
Post by: Grace on January 16, 2012, 01:06:14 AM
Post by: Tink on January 16, 2012, 02:22:24 AM
Post by: use_your_illusion on January 25, 2012, 04:27:14 AM
Also Purelove didn't you say TS said to you that T.S stands for The Sign?
Post by: paula-c on February 09, 2012, 02:02:40 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBWikirnvO0&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=22125.0
Post by: paula-c on March 04, 2012, 05:37:23 PM
According to paramedic Blount he was at the back of the ambulance doing CPR:
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/Nimue/trying/amb2012.JPG)
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/Nimue/trying/blount.jpg)
Unless Blount has a "white"arm or he is lying and he was not at the back of the patient head, there is no way for this pic to be real.
credit: Nimue http://www.igroops.com/members/httpfairycom/comm/READ/00009053/Ambulance-Parking-in-fornt-of-Carolwood-Dr-and-leaving.html
Post by: Tink on March 04, 2012, 07:11:54 PM
I do not know if someone published this detail before, After the Murray's trial I think the ultimate proof that this picture is fake came from the paramedics.
According to paramedic Blount he was at the back of the ambulance doing CPR:
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/Nimue/trying/amb2012.JPG)
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/Nimue/trying/blount.jpg)
Unless Blount has a "white"arm or he is lying and he was not at the back of the patient head, there is no way for this pic to be real.
credit: Nimue http://www.igroops.com/members/httpfairycom/comm/READ/00009053/Ambulance-Parking-in-fornt-of-Carolwood-Dr-and-leaving.html
I wasn't able to watch the broadcast, and never researched the ambulance. The devil's in the details.
Kudos to you!
See how this is quite literally falling into place finally!?
Post by: bec on March 04, 2012, 10:24:41 PM
Post by: curls on March 05, 2012, 01:57:24 AM
And how would TS know who was sitting where .... unless he was there!!! Or unless no-one sat anywhere because it's all an illusion!
Post by: paula-c on March 05, 2012, 10:03:11 AM
(http://fotosdecosas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Fotos-de-autos-sobreccargados-3.jpg)
of all this, i think that two paramedics are in the hoaxes
Post by: bec on March 05, 2012, 01:01:31 PM
Also, I never found out who drove the ambulance from Carolwood. Blount said he was the driver to get there but to my knowledge no-one's owned up to the job of driving to UCLA.
And how would TS know who was sitting where .... unless he was there!!! Or unless no-one sat anywhere because it's all an illusion!
Agreed. Unless someone can prove that Blount stated where he sat en-route to UCLA.
Post by: hesouttamylife on March 05, 2012, 01:09:39 PM
Post by: MJonmind on March 05, 2012, 01:55:37 PM
Quote
Quote from: bec on November 28, 2011, 08:43:16 AM (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg375285#msg375285)QuoteTS says Blout was not driving?
If Blout was not driving then he must be in on the hoax because otherwise would he not pipe up and say the pic is fake? Those are clearly 2 white guys in the back.
Blount was riding in the long seat beside Murray, to the right of Murray (towards the front, Murray being towards the back). This would be out of the shot through the window (if the shot had really been taken on the fly).
Senneff said that he was at the head (airway), and Goodwin was doing the compressions. This fits what we see in the ambulance photo.
TS, Nov 29,11
Quote
The false theories that I was referring to were one such as these: multiple ambulances, green screen everything in the ambulance videos, the two videos were taken on different days, MJ sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, jumping out of the coroner van, etc….
Quote
Quote from: monstertooty on November 28, 2011, 10:09:59 PMQuoteThe German TV station did NOT debunk the coroner van video. I believe Jonell Star pointed out that the "Making of..." video was BS and had several differences from the original.
Although this is not part of the trip from Carolwood to the hospital, I am going to address it because it keeps popping up.
The supposed differences in these videos are no better than the supposed differences in the ambulance videos. They are angle and lighting, etc. For example the green door: some thought that one video the door was dull, and therefore old paint (at the LA coroner's garage); but the other video was a shiny green door, indicating a new paint job (RTL trying to copy the LA coroner garage). The reality is merely a different angle, one angle the light is reflecting off of the door, and the other angle it is not reflecting.
Also, very early after that video came out, it was shown that the license plate had the wrong font--did not match the real LA coroner van. I really don't plan to spend much time on this, but again thought I would reply since it keeps popping up. Maybe someone in the LA area can take a tour of the coroner's facility, and see the differences and report it back here. But it is not MJ, and not LA coroner's garage; if so, I am Tom Sneddon!
Here’s TS trying to convince us that he’s being serious in the info he’s giving us, and the real danger he faces. I’m thinkin just giving us the real deal then might endanger him because anyone can read here. So-o-o could he be pulling our leg? http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg375503#msg375503 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg375503#msg375503)
Post by: BeTheChange on March 05, 2012, 02:07:51 PM
Also, I never found out who drove the ambulance from Carolwood. Blount said he was the driver to get there but to my knowledge no-one's owned up to the job of driving to UCLA.
And how would TS know who was sitting where .... unless he was there!!! Or unless no-one sat anywhere because it's all an illusion!
Agreed. Unless someone can prove that Blount stated where he sat en-route to UCLA.
@9:45, Blount states that he was situated "towards the head" in the ambulance while enroute to UCLA:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ03Oo_ppjg&feature=related[/youtube]
Blount testified on Sept 30th....TS responded to Gina in this exchange on Nov 28th. I can't recall if TS made mention of Blount's location in the ambu prior to Nov 28th...but if this is the only time he commented on it, it was well after Blount's testimony.
He was the driver when they arrived at Carlwood but I only assume he was also the driver when they left Carlwood.Yes, but that is an incorrect assumption. He was riding in the back, on the way to UCLA.
Interestingly enough, Senneff testified to being seated "in the jumpseat, closest to the head" (begins @8:05 of vid)...and stated that there were 4 people in the back of the ambulance: himself, Blount, Goodwin and Murray.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My4vQZvnaNo&feature=related[/youtube]
I just read MJonmind's post before posting this....so I guess they could both have been 'at the head'? One on either side?
This feels like a rendition of 'who's on 1st?' lol....but in this case, who's 'at the head'? :lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: wishingstar on March 05, 2012, 02:09:14 PM
..I think this video should be here,To complement a little research
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBWikirnvO0&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Thanks for posting this video......
ever noticed how many times the word "watch" has been used throughout this hoax? I am sure you all have........
at 12:21 the prosecutor begins an important question...."What is the significance of......" it's the response from the
paramedic (Senoff) that I am interested in.....he says he doesn't wear a watch. I can sort of understand that, yet really can't.
He says he relies on the monitor for time.....what about all the times a paramedic is not next to a monitor? They need a watch to
time beats, pulse, etc.
Every fireman and paramedic I have seen wears a watch......no time to pull out the cell phone in an emergency.
The word, "watch" is everywhere......we have seen and heard it. Cirque's CD track "Immortal Intro -Immortal Version" has Michael's voice saying the word, "watch"............I just keep running into that word, lol.
It's probably nothing...but I thought I'd mention it anyways.......
Blessings!
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=22125.0
Post by: bec on March 05, 2012, 02:33:16 PM
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forumpics/insideamb2.jpg)
Post by: SimPattyK on March 05, 2012, 02:58:47 PM
[...]
ever noticed how many times the word "watch" has been used throughout this hoax? I am sure you all have........
at 12:21 the prosecutor begins an important question...."What is the significance of......" it's the response from the paramedic (Senoff) that I am interested in.....he says he doesn't wear a watch. I can sort of understand that, yet really can't.
He says he relies on the monitor for time.....what about all the times a paramedic is not next to a monitor? They need a watch to time beats, pulse, etc.
Every fireman and paramedic I have seen wears a watch......no time to pull out the cell phone in an emergency.
The word, "watch" is everywhere......we have seen and heard it. Cirque's CD track "Immortal Intro -Immortal Version" has Michael's voice saying the word, "watch"............I just keep running into that word, lol.
It's probably nothing...but I thought I'd mention it anyways.......
Blessings!
Back's signature was also : "Keep watching!"
Post by: hesouttamylife on March 05, 2012, 03:04:37 PM
This is another photo supposedly showing the inside of a UCLA ambulance
http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/UCLA_EMSPhotoGallery.pdf (http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/UCLA_EMSPhotoGallery.pdf)
and these are some photos of another ambulance fleet at UCLA that is utilized in emergencies.
Just sayin…
Post by: bec on March 05, 2012, 03:25:36 PM
Post by: hesouttamylife on March 05, 2012, 03:29:42 PM
Post by: paula-c on March 05, 2012, 06:25:54 PM
Quote
MB led the rescue ambulance. RS was sitting beside her. He came to Carolwood and stationed the ambulance and went into the House. The fire truck accompanied them and was stationed with the street. Mills fire captain, the paramedics Goodwin and Herron were in the fire truck.
MB went with MJ to UCLA. He was sitting in the head. Other drugs of boot to MJ in the way they administered. There was no change in the situation of Michael Jackson on the road. MB saw and heard CM on the phone. MB heard cm "is Michael and that is not well" on the phone. MB does not know with whom CM was talking on the phone.
The declaration of Blount demonstrates that the photo is false and that knowledge of the hoax. Don't know in reality who or what was in the ambulance that came out of Carolwood and arrived at the UCLA.
Post by: wishingstar on March 05, 2012, 09:36:01 PM
[...]
ever noticed how many times the word "watch" has been used throughout this hoax? I am sure you all have........
at 12:21 the prosecutor begins an important question...."What is the significance of......" it's the response from the paramedic (Senoff) that I am interested in.....he says he doesn't wear a watch. I can sort of understand that, yet really can't.
He says he relies on the monitor for time.....what about all the times a paramedic is not next to a monitor? They need a watch to time beats, pulse, etc.
Every fireman and paramedic I have seen wears a watch......no time to pull out the cell phone in an emergency.
The word, "watch" is everywhere......we have seen and heard it. Cirque's CD track "Immortal Intro -Immortal Version" has Michael's voice saying the word, "watch"............I just keep running into that word, lol.
It's probably nothing...but I thought I'd mention it anyways.......
Blessings!
Back's signature was also : "Keep watching!"
Exactly! And those wonderful pictures you posted, the one of MJ in a tux, showing us a watch (sort of magician looking)...one of my favs!
Just a whole lot of watchin' going on, LOL.....
Blessings!
Post by: paula-c on March 06, 2012, 09:26:10 AM
(http://messenger.itematika.com/imagenes/contenido/animoticones/emoticon_0495.gif)
(http://www.igroops.com/g1/httpfairycom/localimages/Nimue/trying/blount.jpg) (http://messenger.itematika.com/imagenes/contenido/animoticones/emoticon_0616.gif)
Post by: PureLove on March 06, 2012, 10:04:48 AM
I remember he said that Update 7 will be only after the BAM. Now there is something else after the Update 7. Sign 7. The word "sign" doesn't sound like something that happens after the BAM... It sounds more like another level, other clue. I thought we won't need clues and signs after Michael comes back. I thought everything would be clear when he comes back, so we can act firmly on a base, on some reality and facts. What sign is there after the BAM?
We were also promised level 7 will be done before November 29th 2011, even if he had to finish it alone.
Maybe that Sign 7 has to do with the project TS and Front were talking about.
I think Sign 7 is Michael himself and the BAM. TS wrote that the BAM is going to be before 2012 ends. First we will finish level 7 and then TS will make an Update and then the BAM will happen. mj_bad/
Post by: Grace on March 06, 2012, 10:04:52 AM
(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb108/highlandparkfas/website/vehicles/Ambulance79Inside.jpg)
This is another photo supposedly showing the inside of a UCLA ambulance
http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/UCLA_EMSPhotoGallery.pdf (http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/UCLA_EMSPhotoGallery.pdf)
and these are some photos of another ambulance fleet at UCLA that is utilized in emergencies.
Just sayin…
Given no emergency case, there is enough space to put 7 persons into the van.
1 driver
1 on front seat besides driver
1 on grey seat at head of stretcher
3 on bench at right
1 on stretcher.
Adds up to almost a baseball team.
In fact, we do not know who was sitting on the bench just like we don't know who was on the stretcher's place in the helicopter. Well hidden behind a wall.
Post by: hesouttamylife on March 06, 2012, 11:15:11 AM
Post by: bec on March 06, 2012, 03:19:33 PM
Why would he lie?
Did he forget?
That's fairly unprofessional of him.
Even hoaxers deny proof of the hoax. We hardly get anything solid, but when we do, there's scores of people who identify as hoaxers clamoring to be the first to deny it. This has always been an interesting sociological phenomenon to me.
Post by: MJhunny on March 06, 2012, 03:53:18 PM
seat?s
Post by: Sarahli on May 09, 2012, 02:54:05 PM
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
Hi TS, funny that I was just on MJ's facebook page and today it's about puzzles and I thought to myself TS will post today!!! Coincidence? :shock:
Michael Jackson
Collectible flashback: Who has one of these vintage MJ Puzzle Forms?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/392614_10150533887011473_19691681472_8643043_546118498_n.jpg)
party/
When I saw this posted on the facebook page I thought about this ^^^ .... I'm sure it doesn't mean anything, just wanted to post! ;D
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/35519_10150885715756473_19691681472_9504285_1363613404_n.jpg)
Post by: Andrea on May 09, 2012, 04:23:09 PM
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
Hi TS, funny that I was just on MJ's facebook page and today it's about puzzles and I thought to myself TS will post today!!! Coincidence? :shock:
Michael Jackson
Collectible flashback: Who has one of these vintage MJ Puzzle Forms?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/392614_10150533887011473_19691681472_8643043_546118498_n.jpg)
party/
When I saw this posted on the facebook page I thought about this ^^^ .... I'm sure it doesn't mean anything, just wanted to post! ;D
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/35519_10150885715756473_19691681472_9504285_1363613404_n.jpg)
Hmmm...reminds me of...
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/Themes/Astonished_201/images/custom/logo.png)
Post by: TS_comments on October 22, 2012, 01:59:30 AM
Perhaps 2012 is the year of the Signs.
2011 was the year of the Levels.
2010 was the year of the Updates.
:th_bravo:
Post by: TS_comments on October 22, 2012, 02:07:34 AM
We are gonna be shocked by something at the end of this, make no mistake.
:th_bravo:
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on October 22, 2012, 02:13:52 AM
Post by: TS_comments on October 22, 2012, 02:15:02 AM
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
:TongueOutSmiley:
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
Post by: Do on October 22, 2012, 02:19:49 AM
We are gonna be shocked by something at the end of this, make no mistake.
:th_bravo:
Hi TS!
I hope it will be a 'good' shock!!
Looking forward to the completion of level 7 and even more to the return of our hero!
Post by: curls on October 22, 2012, 02:23:07 AM
Very happy to see you're back, TS!
Post by: TS_comments on October 22, 2012, 02:34:37 AM
Time to finish level 7!! YAY!!!!! :woohoo2:
Very happy to see you're back, TS!
Thanks Curls!
Now for the first thing to research: can anyone find a movie, where the verdict read in court included the word "alleged" (it must be an entertainment movie, NOT video of real court case)?
:icon_question: :icon_question:
Post by: MJonmind on October 22, 2012, 03:07:05 AM
TS, I think your question on use of "alleged" is going to be like your earlier coincidence test for $999 reward. Impossible.
But you said then,
"As stated in Update #6, Update #7 probably will not be before bamsday", so this 7abcd... is going to be interesting!
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,14058.msg234443.html#msg234443
Post by: emulik on October 22, 2012, 03:10:52 AM
Post by: Adi on October 22, 2012, 03:13:45 AM
Well, after about a year I’m “back”—no, that does NOT have a double meaning, lol.
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
:TongueOutSmiley:
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
bec is correct - TS is slippery! :icon_mrgreen:
Anyway TS it's wonderful for you to be back here!
I have kind of forgotten where we got to in this Level so I will have to go back and do a quick revision.......off the top of my head I can't think of any entertainment movie where the word "alleged" is used whilst reading a verdict in court, but I haven't seen many movies which involve court cases, I can only think of a few which I have seen and I don't remember if they used "alleged".
Looking forward to this :icon_geek:
btw - TS you have a very familiar way of mixing of capital letters and non capitals in this post :icon_cool:
Post by: 2good2btrue on October 22, 2012, 04:09:39 AM
Post by: Adi on October 22, 2012, 04:24:13 AM
The 25 Greatest Legal Movies:
http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_25_greatest_legal_movies/
Out of these 25 I have watched about 12......more than I had thought. I certainly can't remember if they ever used the word "alleged" in reading the verdict.
Edit: I suspect none of them used "alleged" - when people go to watch these type of movies they know it is for entertainment and mostly fiction (although some are based on true events) so why would the Director/Script Writer bother putting "alleged" in the reading of the verdict scene when they want it to be as realistic as possible and they also know the people watching are doing so with full knowledge it's a movie for entertainment? However, in the "Trial of Conrad Murray", the majority of people watching thought it was really happening, that it was real life beamed into their living rooms via their TV sets...............so therefore "alleged victim" was used......
Post by: marumjj on October 22, 2012, 04:56:30 AM
Time to finish level 7!! YAY!!!!! :woohoo2:
Very happy to see you're back, TS!
Thanks Curls!
Now for the first thing to research: can anyone find a movie, where the verdict read in court included the word "alleged" (it must be an entertainment movie, NOT video of real court case)?
:icon_question: :icon_question:
Hello TS! Glad you're here again. OK looking "alleged", here we go. Receive my love
Post by: marumjj on October 22, 2012, 05:15:12 AM
Here is an interesting starting point which I found:I agree with you. and another point is that it should be from 2009? TS not specific, but from 2009 narrows the search :judge-smiley:
The 25 Greatest Legal Movies:
http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_25_greatest_legal_movies/
Out of these 25 I have watched about 12......more than I had thought. I certainly can't remember if they ever used the word "alleged" in reading the verdict.
Edit: I suspect none of them used "alleged" - when people go to watch these type of movies they know it is for entertainment and mostly fiction (although some are based on true events) so why would the Director/Script Writer bother putting "alleged" in the reading of the verdict scene when they want it to be as realistic as possible and they also know the people watching are doing so with full knowledge it's a movie for entertainment? However, in the "Trial of Conrad Murray", the majority of people watching thought it was really happening, that it was real life beamed into their living rooms via their TV sets...............so therefore "alleged victim" was used......
Post by: emulik on October 22, 2012, 06:53:04 AM
"Some lies just have to be told"
"Sometimes the "real" story is not the real story"
"A plan to change everything"
(http://i48.tinypic.com/lz6gp.jpg)
Storyline
Alleged is a romantic drama based on events occurring behind the scenes and outside the courtroom of the famous Scopes "Monkey Trial" of 1925. Charles Anderson, a talented young reporter, feels trapped working for his deceased father's weekly newspaper and living in a tiny town (Dayton, TN) in steep decline. Seeing the "Monkey Trial" as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to break into the journalistic big leagues, Charles manages to insert himself into the middle of the "Trial of the Century." Once in the midst of this staged event, however, he is torn between his love for the more principled Rose, his fiancée, and the escalating moral compromises that he is asked to make as the eager protégé of H.L. Mencken, America's most colorful and influential columnist. Written by Dean River Productions
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1b8g8rUA6k[/youtube]
Please can any of you check at 1:12? I think I can hear there word "alleged" but I am not sure, because judge is speaking little bit unclear for my non-native english ears :icon_e_wink: Thank you in advance!!
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 22, 2012, 07:02:40 AM
...investigators? like Sherlock Holmes, my dear
Post by: Adi on October 22, 2012, 07:13:02 AM
http://www.abajournal.com/gallery/top25movies/101
That movie "Alleged" looks interesting. I'd like to watch it. I don't hear the judge say alleged.
Something twigged in my memory about the monkey bit (Front's "monkey needs more kiwi") - so I searched on the monkey trial and found the wiki on the original trial: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Trial:
I found this part in bold interesting:
Quote
The Scopes Trial, formally known as The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes and commonly referred to as the Scopes Monkey Trial, was a famous American legal case in 1925 in which a high school teacher, John Scopes, was accused of violating Tennessee's Butler Act, which made it unlawful to teach evolution in any state-funded school.[1] The trial was deliberately staged in order to attract publicity to the small town of Dayton, Tennessee, where it was held. Scopes was unsure whether he had ever actually taught evolution, but he purposefully incriminated himself so that the case could have a defendant.
A staged trial which is used to bring attention/publicity to an important issue.
@marrumjj - I think it would be any year - not just 2009 - but I am just assuming that :icon_e_wink:
Post by: Andrea on October 22, 2012, 07:37:16 AM
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on October 22, 2012, 07:46:53 AM
Post by: wishingstar on October 22, 2012, 08:15:26 AM
Emulik....great find on the that movie...amazing! Thank you : )
I'd like to throw another one out there....just because we have lived it for 3.5 years.......This Is It
A couple of my favorite videos...I know you said NOT video of a real court case:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ikE0RJ4aGo&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtRmJ9iTWj4&feature=related[/youtube]
Have a great day TS......I'll be thinking of you and your levels to come.......
Blessings to all....
LOVE
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 22, 2012, 08:18:05 AM
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on October 22, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
WOW TS & Front returned today. :th_bravo: This could only mean something good is on the horizon. Welcome back TS!
Yes my dear hesouttamylife!
Hi TS!! I am sooooooo happy you are back that later in my aerobic class I will celebrate it making the whole class in HIGH IMPACT!!, lol and after the class I will make my homework that's to say to find a movie where the verdict read in court included the word "alleged" :compute:.
Post by: SimPattyK on October 22, 2012, 09:52:24 AM
TS, I think your question on use of "alleged" is going to be like your earlier coincidence test for $999 reward. Impossible.Exactly ! :icon_e_wink:
The terms "verdict" & "alleged" cannot be heard in the same sentence in a normal Court, during a TRUE trial!
@TS: I am so happy to hear that the level 7 will eventually be completed!! I am THRILLED ! :)
Post by: bec on October 22, 2012, 10:27:46 AM
Time to finish level 7!! YAY!!!!! :woohoo2:
Very happy to see you're back, TS!
Thanks Curls!
Now for the first thing to research: can anyone find a movie, where the verdict read in court included the word "alleged" (it must be an entertainment movie, NOT video of real court case)?
:icon_question: :icon_question:
TS, that's easy. During MJ's movie, the word "alleged" was included in the reading of the verdict at the Conrad Murray mans.laughter trial in 2011.
Post by: paula-c on October 22, 2012, 10:50:41 AM
Well, after about a year I’m “back”—no, that does NOT have a double meaning, lol.
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
:TongueOutSmiley:
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
Hi TS greeting reciprocal :TongueOutSmiley:
:abouttime:
Post by: paula-c on October 22, 2012, 10:58:47 AM
Quote
"NOT video of real court case"
Post by: wishingstar on October 22, 2012, 11:03:24 AM
TS....I darn near choked on my breakfast when I saw you posted....good to see you around as well.
Emulik....great find on the that movie...amazing! Thank you : )
I'd like to throw another one out there....just because we have lived it for 3.5 years.......This Is It
A couple of my favorite videos...I know you said NOT video of a real court case:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ikE0RJ4aGo&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtRmJ9iTWj4&feature=related[/youtube]
Have a great day TS......I'll be thinking of you and your levels to come.......
Blessings to all....
LOVE
It would seem great minds think alike, bec........it's the first thing I thought of and posted as well.....good thinking!
Blessings
Post by: Elsa on October 22, 2012, 12:45:42 PM
Post by: susieMJ on October 22, 2012, 01:12:33 PM
As for our sweet homework, maybe to start with we should see all the verdicts in these movies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_film
Ps... A bit off-topic - i'm listening to Adele's Skyfall right now... The "this is the end" part has always sounded sooo hoaxy to me XD
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on October 22, 2012, 01:48:02 PM
Well, after about a year I’m “back”—no, that does NOT have a double meaning, lol.
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
:TongueOutSmiley:
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
:abouttime: :LolLolLolLol:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VpAgP4Uz4E[/youtube]
:omg: I'm So excited! I'm Watchin' 4 sure! I just wanna know IF a real body was used? :affraid:
Post by: GINAFELICIA on October 22, 2012, 01:49:41 PM
To all: I wish you good luck in finding that movie, because I can think of no one.
And I think it's pretty clear that the court case was real. TS wouldn't joke about this...
Now for the first thing to research: can anyone find a movie, where the verdict read in court included the word "alleged" (it must be an entertainment movie, NOT video of real court case)?
:icon_question: :icon_question:
Well, that's how I take your words TS. If I am wrong...so be it. They can't all lie under oath and they are not actors. They saw events happening under their very eyes and they testified about what they saw.
yeah I know I should back up these words with at least 2 solid reasons...but I can't think right now. This is my opinion.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on October 22, 2012, 02:38:19 PM
Glad to see you "back" TS XD You've been missed :bearhug:
As for our sweet homework, maybe to start with we should see all the verdicts in these movies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_film
Ps... A bit off-topic - i'm listening to Adele's Skyfall right now... The "this is the end" part has always sounded sooo hoaxy to me XD
:beerchug: Thanx 4 ur help susie. Cool Song. :icon_cool:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeumyOzKqgI[/youtube]
Post by: rachel1018 on October 22, 2012, 03:09:38 PM
Post by: MJonmind on October 22, 2012, 03:20:33 PM
Emulik, great find, “Alleged”! Very pertinent! I don’t hear ‘alleged’ at 1:12.
Sounds like the same monkey laugh at the end, as in the beginning of MJ’s ‘Monkey business’ song.
Adi, thanks for adding about the monkey trial, “Inherit the wind”, a staged trial! Like CM’s… This is getting interesting!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp6C51sYp0A[/youtube]
ImConvinced
Quote
I'm So excited! I'm Watchin' 4 sure! I just wanna know IF a real body was used?I'd love to hear your response to my post here about a comparison of death hoaxes, since 'Elvis' talks about the use of a terminal patient that may have had the plug pulled early to accommodate hoax timing. http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,23442.msg426869/topicseen.html#new
SusieMJ, Adele’s Skyfall sure does sound hoaxy. “Put your hand in my hand, and we’ll stand, Let the skyfall, when it crumbles we will stand tall, face it all together." Sounds like EOW to me!
Post by: curls on October 22, 2012, 03:46:08 PM
Bec and Wish, lol, I guess the answer was WAY too easy, and I missed it! :woohoo2:
Nah, this is TS we're dealing with here - NOTHING is that easy where he's concerned! Without having researched ALL verdict readings in ALL movies, of course I cannot say for certain, but I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. We'll be back talking entrapment and sting operations and all fake or part fake and who's in on it and who's not and getting in a right old pickle before we know where we are!
Post by: Andrea on October 22, 2012, 03:59:07 PM
Post by: Sarahli on October 22, 2012, 04:02:19 PM
Quote from: TS_comments
Now for the first thing to research: can anyone find a movie, where the verdict read in court included the word "alleged" (it must be an entertainment movie, NOT video of real court case)?
I also thought it could just be CM's trial or Thriller II, but how can we know with 100% certainty that absolutely no other movie on the planet has a court verdict with the word "alleged" used in it? We would have to scan them all to be sure. Are we talking just US movies? Sorry maybe it's a dumb question. Now like someone said earlier (sorry I forgot who it was) it is very unlikely that a "normal" movie with a "normal" scenario would use this word in a verdict, the probability must be low.
Now TS doesn't say with what the word alleged has to be associated with maybe there's a little twist here. :icon_lol:
Quote from: curls
Nah, this is TS we're dealing with here - NOTHING is that easy where he's concerned! Without having researched ALL verdict readings in ALL movies
Yes thought the same.
Post by: curls on October 22, 2012, 04:07:38 PM
Sounds like you're looking forward to it curls. :icon_lol:
I am! I just wish I had more TIME - I'm having to be busy on other things for the next week or so. :icon_cry:
Post by: mjselfsweet on October 22, 2012, 05:09:01 PM
hi TS, long time no see, WB.
Post by: Dontwalkaway on October 22, 2012, 05:22:53 PM
Love You All :Michael_Jackson_smiley_by_red
Post by: bec on October 22, 2012, 06:04:24 PM
Bec and Wish, lol, I guess the answer was WAY too easy, and I missed it! :woohoo2:
Nah, this is TS we're dealing with here - NOTHING is that easy where he's concerned! Without having researched ALL verdict readings in ALL movies, of course I cannot say for certain, but I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. We'll be back talking entrapment and sting operations and all fake or part fake and who's in on it and who's not and getting in a right old pickle before we know where we are!
Yes, I'm sure you're right. He may proceed to argue that... although that's not what he said, exactly.
Quote
Now for the first thing to research: can anyone find a movie, where the verdict read in court included the word "alleged" (it must be an entertainment movie, NOT video of real court case)?
I think he is going to attempt to debunk the use of the word "alleged" in the verdict as proof that court was not real.
Post by: Adi on October 22, 2012, 07:01:46 PM
Alleged victim: Michael Joseph Jackson
Alleged date of June 25th 2009
Just thinking out loud here.......if the Dr M trial/court was real and was being used for a sting operation then does the use of "alleged victim" and "alleged date" cover them? IDK......
I haven't had time to look for an entertainment movie about a court case where the word "alleged" is used in the verdict.......my thinking is still that there probably isn't one.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on October 22, 2012, 07:04:00 PM
what was the movie that was found on the movie database, that had a character or actor named conrad murray? was it a tv series? wasnt it about a trial? I've searched but cant find it on the database or forum.
hi TS, long time no see, WB.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGRc-58Gwj8[/youtube]
:michael-jackson:
:judge-smiley:
Disregard the promo in the beg. regardin' money... lol!
Post by: wishingstar on October 22, 2012, 07:16:29 PM
Bec and Wish, lol, I guess the answer was WAY too easy, and I missed it! :woohoo2:
Nah, this is TS we're dealing with here - NOTHING is that easy where he's concerned! Without having researched ALL verdict readings in ALL movies, of course I cannot say for certain, but I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. We'll be back talking entrapment and sting operations and all fake or part fake and who's in on it and who's not and getting in a right old pickle before we know where we are!
I totally agree that nothing, absolutely nothing about this hoax is easy, lol. Half the time I spend reading, half the time writing and half the time wondering....see....nothing adds up :icon_geek:
I just had to post This Is It...for nothing else it shows that we do pay attention, and remember words and single instances. Perhaps, it's a movie with a story line that mimics our adventure? I have looked, and will keep on looking....that's for sure....I noticed The Court of Last Resort was posted....good one : ) Have we had other movie references in the last 3.5 years....surely we have. Perhaps the movie has already been mentioned?
:suspect:
Such a dream, such and adventure.....and such blessing!
LOVE
Post by: RK on October 22, 2012, 07:40:56 PM
Curls said.....
Quote
I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. We'll be back talking entrapment and sting operations and all fake or part fake and who's in on it and who's not and getting in a right old pickle before we know where we are!
I agree Curls....I'm expecting it. And lets throw FBI involvement into the mix as well. Heaven help my poor brain. It's already over hoaxed.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on October 22, 2012, 07:42:38 PM
Glad to see you "back" TS XD You've been missed :bearhug:
As for our sweet homework, maybe to start with we should see all the verdicts in these movies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_film
Ps... A bit off-topic - i'm listening to Adele's Skyfall right now... The "this is the end" part has always sounded sooo hoaxy to me XD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M_(1931_film) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M_(1931_film))
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/M_poster.jpg)
:Michael_Jackson_smiley_by_red
Some very interesting movie titles listed in that link susie. This one I posted is really intriging. I think peeps should take a gander at the plot. :icon_albino: :suspect:
Post by: marumjj on October 22, 2012, 07:52:18 PM
Bec and Wish, lol, I guess the answer was WAY too easy, and I missed it! :woohoo2:
Nah, this is TS we're dealing with here - NOTHING is that easy where he's concerned! Without having researched ALL verdict readings in ALL movies, of course I cannot say for certain, but I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. We'll be back talking entrapment and sting operations and all fake or part fake and who's in on it and who's not and getting in a right old pickle before we know where we are!
I totally agree that nothing, absolutely nothing about this hoax is easy, lol. Half the time I spend reading, half the time writing and half the time wondering....see....nothing adds up :icon_geek:
I just had to post This Is It...for nothing else it shows that we do pay attention, and remember words and single instances. Perhaps, it's a movie with a story line that mimics our adventure? I have looked, and will keep on looking....that's for sure....I noticed The Court of Last Resort was posted....good one : ) Have we had other movie references in the last 3.5 years....surely we have. Perhaps the movie has already been mentioned?
:suspect:
Such a dream, such and adventure.....and such blessing!
LOVE
That's what I asked in my previous post: The movie must be from 2009? TS does not specify :judge-smiley:
Post by: BeTheChange on October 22, 2012, 08:01:31 PM
As for the movie trivia question lol...I don't think we'll find any movie court room scenes that use the word 'alleged' in the verdict, nor do I think we'd find any real life court room scenes either.
The fact that it was used in Murray's verdict puts 'it' in a class of its own...not a movie, not 'real-life'...maybe somewhere inbetween those very blurry lines lol.
Hoping that you'll be around more often now...the 'atmosphere' is brighter when you (and/or Front) drop by :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: mjselfsweet on October 22, 2012, 08:02:21 PM
what was the movie that was found on the movie database, that had a character or actor named conrad murray? was it a tv series? wasnt it about a trial? I've searched but cant find it on the database or forum.
hi TS, long time no see, WB.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGRc-58Gwj8[/youtube]
:michael-jackson:
:judge-smiley:
Disregard the promo in the beg. regardin' money... lol!
thanks I'mconvinced!! lol didnt have anything but it was a thought!
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on October 22, 2012, 08:52:15 PM
Post by: bec on October 22, 2012, 09:09:19 PM
Post by: paula-c on October 22, 2012, 09:22:12 PM
Bec and Wish, lol, I guess the answer was WAY too easy, and I missed it! :woohoo2:
Nah, this is TS we're dealing with here - NOTHING is that easy where he's concerned! Without having researched ALL verdict readings in ALL movies, of course I cannot say for certain, but I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. We'll be back talking entrapment and sting operations and all fake or part fake and who's in on it and who's not and getting in a right old pickle before we know where we are!
Yes, I'm sure you're right. He may proceed to argue that... although that's not what he said, exactly.QuoteNow for the first thing to research: can anyone find a movie, where the verdict read in court included the word "alleged" (it must be an entertainment movie, NOT video of real court case)?
I think he is going to attempt to debunk the use of the word "La ley tiene dos partes el supuesto de hecho y la consecuencia de derecho " in the verdict as proof that court was not real.
the Devils lawyer, ....may be that they call the legal alleged is that every action has a legal consequence. For example that killer will have a consequence, the legal consequence be the sentence to be imposed :confused:
The law has two parts the "alleged" and in fact the consequence :-[
Post by: scorpionchik on October 22, 2012, 09:25:03 PM
Well, after about a year I’m “back”—no, that does NOT have a double meaning, lol.
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
It is exciting when anyone is back to forum, but it is disappointing to read that year of end is still unknown. Who knows how many levels after 7 we are going to investigate and keep waiting for Michael to come back.
Post by: Andrea on October 22, 2012, 09:48:57 PM
I had to go back and double check the wording of the verdict being read in the Conrad Murray trial for reference:
Alleged victim: Michael Joseph Jackson
Alleged date of June 25th 2009
Just thinking out loud here.......if the Dr M trial/court was real and was being used for a sting operation then does the use of "alleged victim" and "alleged date" cover them? IDK......
I haven't had time to look for an entertainment movie about a court case where the word "alleged" is used in the verdict.......my thinking is still that there probably isn't one.
I've been googling and youtubing, trying to find something but have come up with nothing so far. An exercise in futility maybe?
The use of the word "alleged" when referring to the victim and the date nullifies the charge. So whether this trial was real or not, Murray was sentenced without charge with only a semblance of legality.
Post by: bec on October 23, 2012, 12:18:31 AM
Post by: TS_comments on October 23, 2012, 12:44:20 AM
That's what I asked in my previous post: The movie must be from 2009? TS does not specify :judge-smiley:
If it needed to be from 2009, I would have specified that it needs to be from 2009. :icon_geek:
;)
Post by: TS_comments on October 23, 2012, 12:49:27 AM
Does it have to be a movie ? What about TV shows ?
TV shows is okay; the point is entertainment court, versus real legal court.
:icon_albino:
Post by: TS_comments on October 23, 2012, 12:52:57 AM
I had to go back and double check the wording of the verdict being read in the Conrad Murray trial for reference:
Alleged victim: Michael Joseph Jackson
Alleged date of June 25th 2009
Just thinking out loud here.......if the Dr M trial/court was real and was being used for a sting operation then does the use of "alleged victim" and "alleged date" cover them? IDK......
Good question. :icon_idea:
Now you have something else to research ...
:icon_bounce:
Post by: wishingstar on October 23, 2012, 12:59:45 AM
because I love the movie A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court ....very entertaining "court"
Blessings!
Post by: TS_comments on October 23, 2012, 01:02:40 AM
Would it be legal to bring in witnesses to the Murray trial, if it was merely a movie--and the "actors" (witnesses) were not informed that it was merely a movie?
:icon_neutral:
Post by: bec on October 23, 2012, 01:06:46 AM
Candid Camera the TV show did it and it aired in 1999:
Quote
Episode Detail: Candid Camera - Candid Camerahttp://www.tvguide.com/detail/tv-show.aspx?tvobjectid=362569&more=ucepisodelist&episodeid=1075710
New Orleans Saints QB Danny Wuerffel signs illegible autographs; courtroom witnesses respond to absurd questions. Also: escalator riders head nowhere; a woman asks to borrow shoes from passersby. Suzanne Somers co-hosts.
Post by: bec on October 23, 2012, 01:12:54 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xMg3gT9dFU[/youtube]
Post by: Adi on October 23, 2012, 01:19:59 AM
Turning an Expert Witness into a Great Witness
http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2012/05/turning-an-expert-witness-into-a-great-witness/
Post by: curls on October 23, 2012, 01:43:02 AM
Would it be legal to bring in witnesses to the Murray trial, if it was merely a movie--and the "actors" (witnesses) were not informed that it was merely a movie?
:icon_neutral:
Any reason why you only mention 'witnesses' here? That's implying 'everyone else' would know it was merely a movie. And why call them 'actors'? That's implying they were actors called in to play the part of genuine witnesses in a supposedly real trial!
:LolLolLolLol: You taught us well TS - can't take a simple sentence from anyone nowadays without pulling it apart!! :bearhug:
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on October 23, 2012, 01:53:35 AM
Post by: Adi on October 23, 2012, 01:58:48 AM
Post by: diggyon on October 23, 2012, 02:00:50 AM
Would it be legal to bring in witnesses to the Murray trial, if it was merely a movie--and the "actors" (witnesses) were not informed that it was merely a movie?
:icon_neutral:
Any reason why you only mention 'witnesses' here? That's implying 'everyone else' would know it was merely a movie. And why call them 'actors'? That's implying they were actors called in to play the part of genuine witnesses in a supposedly real trial!
:LolLolLolLol: You taught us well TS - can't take a simple sentence from anyone nowadays without pulling it apart!! :bearhug:
curls, I guess you're right on that one!
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on October 23, 2012, 02:24:05 AM
Post by: 2good2btrue on October 23, 2012, 03:14:10 AM
They knew there where camaras, and that it was aired.
Just like the private funeral...Michael likes to keep private archives of everything he does.. ;)
The guests at the funeral had to sign some sort of paperwork/agreement regarding the filming of the funeral too...
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 23, 2012, 03:23:47 AM
Bec and Wish, lol, I guess the answer was WAY too easy, and I missed it! :woohoo2:
Nah, this is TS we're dealing with here - NOTHING is that easy where he's concerned! Without having researched ALL verdict readings in ALL movies, of course I cannot say for certain, but I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. We'll be back talking entrapment and sting operations and all fake or part fake and who's in on it and who's not and getting in a right old pickle before we know where we are!
True, but maybe he wants us to think that. He wants us to think nothing is easy when it comes from him so then we will automatically think it was too simple and we will go on our own little rabbit hole looking for the hard answers. Unless he knew we would think that so he is purposely going to make it harder just for the sake of it. :icon_e_surprised: :icon_eek: :icon_lol: JKS
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 23, 2012, 03:40:36 AM
... and one more thing to research, just in case you have too much time on your hands--and can't find anything to do. :Pulling_hair: :errrr: :icon_e_biggrin:
Would it be legal to bring in witnesses to the Murray trial, if it was merely a movie--and the "actors" (witnesses) were not informed that it was merely a movie?
:icon_neutral:
Yes only if it was a sting, if it was merely a movie with no basis except for entertainment, then that would be illegal. I mean I don't know how you can actually research 'Is it legal to bring witnesses to a trial on the basis of making a movie', so we would have to use logic, right? I don't know what you want. But I mean it's like any crime/'crime', if you make a false report to the police, that's illegal and you can go to jail, pay a fine etc. whatever, same with making a false statement under oath. Now with a whole trial, accusing someone of a person's death (particularly someone of MJ's prominence) then that is so illegal, and this would be the case still whether or not 'alleged date' and 'alleged victim' was used or not.
About the alleged thing, you can't convict someone on something that allegedly happened because once a person's proven guilty it isn't an assumption, it's 'proven'. Out of all the movies and TV Shows I looked at, not one said allegedly, only before the verdict, they use allegedly to describe the crime, like 'alleged crime that took place' or 'alleged assailant' etc.
Edit: But what if it's found that the case had somehow been a mistrial after all this time because of a piece of evidence or incorrect procedure, then it can get thrown out right?
So say this was a fake trial the whole time (known only to those in the hoax, not to real persons of the law (i.e judge, some witnesses etc.) To them and everyone else it will be looked at as a real case, but then later it is found that there has been evidence tampering or something like that, then the case would get thrown out right? But that wouldn't matter to MJ because he would of already had his movie done with the fake trial.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on October 23, 2012, 04:55:17 AM
... and one more thing to research, just in case you have too much time on your hands--and can't find anything to do. :Pulling_hair: :errrr: :icon_e_biggrin:We should know the US laws to answer this question.
Would it be legal to bring in witnesses to the Murray trial, if it was merely a movie--and the "actors" (witnesses) were not informed that it was merely a movie?
:icon_neutral:
Since I don't know the US laws - I can only appeal to common sense and say that IMO it should be illegal to make the witnesses play roles in a movie without their consent.
In Romania it is legal to take pictures/films of any person in a public space though. I don't know if a court of law can be considered a public space.
But even if it is, to make the witnesses testify is different from taking pictures/films of them. This means to make them part of a movie without their consent.
This should not be legal IMO.
EDIT: TS, are you a lawyer :icon_cool:?
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 23, 2012, 05:09:20 AM
This person, as well as others are claiming that The Real Housewives of Atlanta storyline of Sheree Whitfield in court is fake. The article goes onto explain why it is fake.
So if this is true, well then I guess it isn't illegal to have a fake case in a real courthouse, whether the judge is a real judge of the court (in the case of CM V The People) and if you count RHOA, where a real judge presided over it (Judge Arrington is not only a real judge but a very well-known and well-respected judge in Fulton County), then it's safe to say that it is legal.
Why the show had a fake case, is probably for a good storyline but I guess the only reason for allowing this fake case in a real courthouse would be just for the purpose of a show. But who do you have to go to anyway to allow for a fake court case to preside in front of a real judge?
Post by: emulik on October 23, 2012, 06:01:14 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on October 23, 2012, 06:43:19 AM
some parts for sure felt so out of place, like MJ's dead photo.
and the pumpkin
and the elephant
but do you guys remember the cangaroo court?
It was planned to finish with the guilty verdict for an innocent man. This must be it.
Post by: Adi on October 23, 2012, 07:23:05 AM
Post by: BeTheChange on October 23, 2012, 08:15:25 AM
... and one more thing to research, just in case you have too much time on your hands--and can't find anything to do. :Pulling_hair: :errrr: :icon_e_biggrin:
Would it be legal to bring in witnesses to the Murray trial, if it was merely a movie--and the "actors" (witnesses) were not informed that it was merely a movie?
:icon_neutral:
I've spent the better part of my morning looking up 'precedents'...what they are, what they mean, and what happens in cases where there is no 'precedent' (I figured this was a better angle to research than sitting here youtubing a gazillion movies with court scenes where ONE specific word was used lol). Based on what I've read so far, I'm wondering if "Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali" ("No crime, no punishment without a previous penal law") would/could be applied here.
Quote
The maxim states that there can be no crime committed, and no punishment meted out, without a violation of penal law as it existed at the time. Another consequence of this principle is that only those penalties that had already been established for the offence in the time when it was committed can be imposed. Thus, not only the existence of the crime depends on there being a previous legal provision declaring it to be a penal offense (nullum crimen sine praevia lege), but also, for a specific penalty to be imposed in a certain case, it is also necessary that the penal legislation in force at the time when the crime was committed ranked the penalty to be imposed as one of the possible sanctions to that crime (nulla poena sine praevia lege).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullum_crimen,_nulla_poena_sine_praevia_lege_poenali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullum_crimen,_nulla_poena_sine_praevia_lege_poenali)
A "crime" is only defined as such, from my understanding, if there is law(s) already stating it is (already 'in the books', so to speak). Trying to find reference (precedents) would get us nowhere here because there is no law, that I can find, that speaks to what played out in front of our eyes lol. I can't find reference to ANY court case that was played out, not only to the 'public' but also to the world, as REAL when it was, in fact, FAKE....let alone one that was based on fake charges, based on a fake death lol....whether for a sting or for a movie. If there is no law/precedent specifically set out for this 'action'....then I would think that any actions following the main one would be legally ambiguous (i.e. open to interpretation).
My 'legal' knowledge is limited, so this may be WAY off in being applicable lol. Based on Mike's character profile, I would think that Mike did NOT break any laws in the course of this thing. So whatever we did see play out (and is still playing out), I would bet, was/is fully within the 'bounds' of the law, as it is stated. Based on Mike's level of genius, I wouldn't be surprised if he found a way outside the same legal system that tried to crucify him...by out-thinking 'them' and SETTING precedent....in essence, changing future history books/re-writing history.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: paula-c on October 23, 2012, 09:41:54 AM
Quote
California | Medical Malpractice
11/11/11, 5:27 pmLegal QuestionAttorneys Only: Answer this Question
Why in the Conrad Murray case, during the verdict Michael Jackson was still stated as alleged victim?and waht does alleged date means?
Verdict:
Superior court of California Los Angeles County. The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Conrad Robert Murray defendant. Case number SA-073164. Title of court and cause. We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. In violation of penal code section 192 subsection B alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009 as charged in count I of the information
Legal Answer When the verdict form was drafted, Jackson was still an "alleged" victim, because Dr. Murray was then presumed innocent. Obviously, that's no longer true.
Michael Stone
Law Offices of Michael B. Stone Toll Free 1-855-USE-MIKE
3020 Old Ranch Parkway, Suite 300
Seal Beach, CA 90740
http://www.lawguru.com/legal-questions/-/conrad-murray-case-verdict-michael-119617113/a
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20594.400.html
Post by: curls on October 23, 2012, 09:51:14 AM
That use of the word 'alleged' in Murray's verdict is surely there as a safeguard and it should've rung alarm bells in the minds of all lawyers and dare I say journalists - maybe it did, but they kept silent.
Oh just seen this from Paula:
Legal Answer When the verdict form was drafted, Jackson was still an "alleged" victim, because Dr. Murray was then presumed innocent. Obviously, that's no longer true.
Obviously!!
Post by: paula-c on October 23, 2012, 10:10:01 AM
Quote
The Latin word vĭctim refers to the living person or animal for slaughter. This use, anyway, was relegated and currently the notion of victim often mention the person damaged by another subject or by a force majeure
The judgment does not say alleged died, but the alleged victim, a different thing, because what is alleged is the victimization not death.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on October 23, 2012, 10:24:48 AM
Good Luck family. Those of you who have been there by my side from the start- I love you all. Some of the players who have appeared to jump out of the shadows recently really give me Heartburn. lmao!
I gotta Go now.
:bearhug:
Post by: bec on October 23, 2012, 10:25:24 AM
If the victim were merely alleged and not proven, what is the verdict being ruled against? It is a tricky little play on words designed to confuse and spark debate.
Post by: paula-c on October 23, 2012, 10:35:58 AM
Post by: Andrea on October 23, 2012, 10:42:31 AM
Don't know what to do with "alleged" date
"That day and the oth..." (other day)
Post by: bec on October 23, 2012, 11:09:56 AM
However, I'd say that last year we effectively PROVED that SOMETHING occurred on 6/25/09 at Carrolwood house and at UCLA and at LA coroner (ambulance footage was shot on 6/25/09, same ambulance did embark to and arrive at UCLA ER, and helicopter did fly from UCLA-->LA coroner), so I believe we can safely state that the date is not alleged.
WHAT occurred on 6/25/09 is indeed alleged, but the date of something occurring is NOT alleged. The date of something occurring is substantiated as 6/25/09, so we can officially state "the date" as opposed to "the alleged date".
Post by: ellyd on October 23, 2012, 11:58:07 AM
Under Penal Code § 632(c), "confidential communication" includes any communication carried on in circumstances as may reasonably indicate that any party to the communication desires it to be confined to the parties, but excludes a communication made in a public gathering or in any legislative, judicial, executive or administrative proceeding open to the public, or in any other circumstance in which the parties to the communication may reasonably expect that the communication may be overheard or recorded.
http://www.bc-llp.com/Legal-Guides/Illegally-Recording-a-Conversation.shtml (http://www.bc-llp.com/Legal-Guides/Illegally-Recording-a-Conversation.shtml)
A movie needs signatures from "actors".
A true trial doesn't.
A fake trial means entrapment / avoidance of signatures except if entrapment can safely be excluded by other obvious indicators.
Add. Fake trial = avoidance of signatures of consent to recordings but:
The Production of Illegal Recordings During Discovery
Although generally not admissible at trial, illegal recordings are discoverable as they could lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. As such, if a recording is responsive to discovery requests, it should be timely produced. Otherwise, if it is later discovered that the recording was not produced and was intentionally withheld, severe discovery sanctions may be imposed. Counsel should carefully analyze whether production is appropriate. If a recording is responsive and is produced, counsel should advise their clients to seek advice of criminal counsel as there may be criminal implications and the potential need to assert the 5 th Amendment right against self-incrimination.
Generally, under California Penal Code § 632(d), an illegally recorded conversation is inadmissible in any court proceeding. However, California courts have carved out exceptions to this blanket exclusion in both civil and criminal actions.
http://www.bc-llp.com/Legal-Guides/Illegally-Recording-a-Conversation.shtml (http://www.bc-llp.com/Legal-Guides/Illegally-Recording-a-Conversation.shtml)
-> Reads to me like:
If a criminal counsel analyzes that an illegal recording production is appropriate, witness "actors" may be recorded without any consent.
If authorities request a recording for collecting evidence that could not be collected otherwise (FBI etc.), witness "actors" may be recorded without any consent - even in a fake trial.
Post by: bec on October 23, 2012, 12:24:46 PM
You can record anyone you want for any reason at any time... you just can't use it as evidence in court.
No restriction on using it for entertainment purposes.
Again, refer to the long running TV show Candid Camera. Filmed frequently in California, also in other two party states.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on October 23, 2012, 01:57:29 PM
Post by: paula-c on October 23, 2012, 02:10:15 PM
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx230/Clueless101/trial/federal_agents_001.png)
(http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Conrad+Murray+Jury+Reaches+Verdict+Dr+Conrad+xIvOybnMNRUl.jpg)
Post by: diggyon on October 23, 2012, 02:16:02 PM
FBI?
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx230/Clueless101/trial/federal_agents_001.png)
This photo seems photoshopped to me. The FBI guys are blurred and the sitting guys in the last row as well. It's optically impossible!!
Post by: MJonmind on October 23, 2012, 02:26:41 PM
Either a ton of professionals were involved in the (at least partly hoax) CM trial fully knowing that MJ was leading this earth-shattering show-stopper, or it all reeks of systemic cover-up, fear of telling truth, political correctness, like in the story of the Emperor’s new clothes—no one but a child or hoaxers like us, was willing to say what everyone could clearly see, that 'alleged' cancels out the guilty verdict. If this trial was real, it really shows what a joke then is the whole legal system. If Tom Snedden could get away with fabricating evidence against MJ back in 05, how many other millions of citizens are being toyed with in small ways to their detriment, by those with power to do so.
Bec
Quote
It is a tricky little play on words designed to confuse and spark debate.Yes, the verdict was as ‘slippery’ as TS has shown himself! Hmmm…connections. Again it is MJ's scale of doing his art incorporating multiple mediums, on a world-wide canvas--art that reveals truth to bring about a real change to heal the world.
Quote
alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009Again it takes us back to ‘who’ or ‘what’ really did or did not die, and did it happen on one day or two separate occasions.
TS
Quote
Would it be legal to bring in witnesses to the Murray trial, if it was merely a movie--and the "actors" (witnesses) were not informed that it was merely a movie?So according to BTC's post, if there is no law written about doing this, then it is legal. I mean how many judges and lawyers are charged with crimes, if they are basically at the top of the food chain. Who polices the police, who judges the judges? Who really examines the government or military, and lives to tell about it?
Maybe FBI! :icon_lol: Or FBI actors? Who knows...
Post by: paula-c on October 23, 2012, 02:58:21 PM
FBI?
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx230/Clueless101/trial/federal_agents_001.png)
This photo seems photoshopped to me. The FBI guys are blurred and the sitting guys in the last row as well. It's optically impossible!!
that I remember this is the only picture where you can see more people in that room, apart from Murray, the lawyers, the judge and prosecutors and the police, or I am mistaken?
Post by: Andrea on October 23, 2012, 08:50:00 PM
FBI?
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx230/Clueless101/trial/federal_agents_001.png)
This photo seems photoshopped to me. The FBI guys are blurred and the sitting guys in the last row as well. It's optically impossible!!
that I remember this is the only picture where you can see more people in that room, apart from Murray, the lawyers, the judge and prosecutors and the police, or I am mistaken?
It's so hard to tell what those lapel pins are. But those guys do seem to be a part of the same team or organization whoever they are. They do kinda have the drab air of seriousness that the feds are known for.
Post by: bec on October 23, 2012, 10:20:31 PM
Which, in itself, might mean something come to think of it.
If you used this exposure in a forest you would only see A tree clearly.
Post by: MJonmind on October 24, 2012, 12:15:44 AM
Post by: paula-c on October 24, 2012, 10:29:46 AM
Wasn't there also one unidentified man in a black suit in the driveway at the Carolwood house on 'death' day, that we figured could have been FBI, making sure all was going according to plan, and legally or whatever? Does anyone have a pic of that/him?
These men?, bodyguards and other
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/cw610.jpg)
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/cw510.jpg)
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/cw411.jpg)
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/cw310.jpg)
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/cw210.jpg)
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/cw110.jpg)
In the UCLA
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ucla110.jpg)
Post by: diggyon on October 24, 2012, 10:41:26 AM
It's not photoshopped. I forget what they call that in photography but I think it's a short exposure. Basically it's a short focus, focusing on only one subject (or line of subjects) in a 3D plane. Excellent for showing depth and catching sharp detail. It's usually used with subject or portrait photography, not typically used in journalistic settings.
Which, in itself, might mean something come to think of it.
If you used this exposure in a forest you would only see A tree clearly.
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx230/Clueless101/trial/federal_agents_001.png)
With "photoshopped" I mean that some effects were added to it. Only the middle part is sharp, while all the other parts of the photo are completely blurred. Blurring is an effect you can add to a picture to emphasize a special part in it. Just look at the chair on the right and the head behind it. You can draw a fine line between the two parts of the picture. If this was an optical blur, then you'll find a part that goes smoothly from blurred to sharp. This part is missing in the photo. If we assume that this blurring is supposed to draw our attention to the guys in the middle, then those guys should be of some kind of importance. They are "actors" in my opinion.
Post by: bec on October 24, 2012, 11:36:04 AM
I have titled this post update #6.5 (not update #7), because this is primarily a continuation of update #6. And yes, it’s also because I said that update #7 will probably be after BAM.
We are now coming up on the third time, when there is a good opportunity for a bam (Halloween and January in the past, now maybe June or July). Like the other times, one main factor (though not the only factor) is how prepared we are for the stampede after bamsday. There are still many hoax believers on MJDHI and other forums, who don’t read the updates and/or don’t think that NWO & EOW is MJ’s message. If we keep waiting for them to inform themselves, they probably never will. But those who do read these updates can help, if you want to: will you be there? If so, read on.
Since MJ is in control: he could have several pieces revealed all in one day; or he could slow the process down, and do it over a longer period of time (until people start getting it)—in either case, the return would end with the bam (the final and ultimate revelation that MJ is alive).
As stated in Update #6, Update #7 probably will not be before bamsday.
Looking at TS_comments comments now.
Post by: Sarahli on October 24, 2012, 11:51:11 AM
By the way -- have you guys noticed our dear TS’ typing style?
“assUME”
“timE”
Now compare this to Front’s typing style of the same words :suspect: :
“ASSume”
“tIME”
TS’s writing is “Back to Front” :thjajaja121:
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 24, 2012, 11:57:01 AM
California is known as a "two-party" state, which means that recordings are not allowed unless all parties to the conversation consent to the recording.
Under Penal Code § 632(c), "confidential communication" includes any communication carried on in circumstances as may reasonably indicate that any party to the communication desires it to be confined to the parties, but excludes a communication made in a public gathering or in any legislative, judicial, executive or administrative proceeding open to the public, or in any other circumstance in which the parties to the communication may reasonably expect that the communication may be overheard or recorded.
http://www.bc-llp.com/Legal-Guides/Illegally-Recording-a-Conversation.shtml (http://www.bc-llp.com/Legal-Guides/Illegally-Recording-a-Conversation.shtml)
A movie needs signatures from "actors".
A true trial doesn't.A fake trial means entrapment / avoidance of signatures except if entrapment can safely be excluded by other obvious indicators.
Add. Fake trial = avoidance of signatures of consent to recordings but:
The Production of Illegal Recordings During Discovery
Although generally not admissible at trial, illegal recordings are discoverable as they could lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. As such, if a recording is responsive to discovery requests, it should be timely produced. Otherwise, if it is later discovered that the recording was not produced and was intentionally withheld, severe discovery sanctions may be imposed. Counsel should carefully analyze whether production is appropriate. If a recording is responsive and is produced, counsel should advise their clients to seek advice of criminal counsel as there may be criminal implications and the potential need to assert the 5 th Amendment right against self-incrimination.
Generally, under California Penal Code § 632(d), an illegally recorded conversation is inadmissible in any court proceeding. However, California courts have carved out exceptions to this blanket exclusion in both civil and criminal actions.
http://www.bc-llp.com/Legal-Guides/Illegally-Recording-a-Conversation.shtml (http://www.bc-llp.com/Legal-Guides/Illegally-Recording-a-Conversation.shtml)
-> Reads to me like:
If a criminal counsel analyzes that an illegal recording production is appropriate, witness "actors" may be recorded without any consent.
If authorities request a recording for collecting evidence that could not be collected otherwise (FBI etc.), witness "actors" may be recorded without any consent - even in a fake trial.
Perhaps the "oaths of silence" everyone was said to have signed were actually agreements to appear as witnesses at this trial and keep their mouths shut about it.
Post by: bec on October 24, 2012, 12:00:59 PM
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Level%207/Puzzle1.jpg)
And now (drum roll) … we are at the final level—level number 7! (7 represents completion). Now it’s time to take everything that we have learned so far (in the previous levels, etc), and put the last few pieces of the puzzle into place.
This is the final frontier for the hoax; the “when’s” and “why’s” have already been thoroughly established, especially through the numerology—and more than a year has gone by, without anyone even making a serious attempt to claim the $999 reward. Therefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
The previous levels were not a waste, because without them we would not be where we are now. Much of the research has already been done, and some of the pieces have already come together (just like the picture above); but we still have a few major areas that need completed (just like the picture above). As I have said already, the minor details on the “how’s” are not very important (and may never been fully understood); however, for more than one reason, the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved.
For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7. Another major area, that keeps popping up unresolved, is the idea that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on some day other than 6-25-09; and closely related is the fairly common idea that two or more ambulances were used (supposedly different lettering, reflector, wrong shadows, etc).
There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo). There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
The ambulance photo needed to be staged in advance, because of the great difficulty getting a good picture through the window “on the fly”; and if you missed the one chance, you would not get another. But staging that photo in advance would not raise public suspicion, if it was done indoors.
Also, some seem to think that the ambulance picture was generated from nothing, in good-old “Photoshop”; but the reality is, no matter how good you are at Photoshop, you don’t just start from nothing and end up with a high resolution photograph (like the ambulance photo). Staging the ambulance photo gives you the basic picture(s) to work from; and then you can modify it with Photoshop (such as adding the car reflection, by taking a separate photo of the car, and then layering it in Photoshop with some transparency).
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked. Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.
8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
penguin/
At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Last but not least, here is a real good statement from bec, which she posted in my recent thread about the timing of the 911 call (12:20 or 12:21?). Keep this concept in mind, because it applies to far more than just the 911 call. “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203)}.
Btw, we only got one puzzle piece, for 7a. We apparently never settled on who or what went to UCLA on June 25,2009, and we never even scratched the surface of 7c.
Post by: Andrea on October 24, 2012, 12:02:21 PM
Quote
Since MJ is in control: he could have several pieces revealed all in one day; or he could slow the process down, and do it over a longer period of time (until people start getting it)—in either case, the return would end with the bam (the final and ultimate revelation that MJ is alive).
So does this possibly mean the bamsday was NOT pre-determined going into the hoax? Or that HOW he bams is based (to a certain degree) on people's understanding of the hoax? Or am I reading that wrong? Considering the hoax is also an ARG, maybe the return will be based on the interactions of the players and can explain TS's role as well.
Post by: bec on October 24, 2012, 12:06:32 PM
Post by: Andrea on October 24, 2012, 12:31:29 PM
Quote
There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo). There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
This is one of the reasons that I cling to the Live MJ theory. Coupled with bec's comments - “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.” - it DOES create realism by actually going through the motions - the witnesses/actors aren't lying about what they "witnessed", whether they ever thought it was real or not.
I still think that having MJ there gave him an almost total control over the situation, whereas if he jetted off, something may have come up that wasn't anticipated and MJ would've been helpless to do anything if he was on a plane. Yes, he would have had someone he trusted to take care of things but still. And anybody who NEEDED to be in on it, would've had to be in on it whether MJ was there or not. If someone who wasn't privy to it saw something (like MJ's leg move,etc) then there was the report that MJ was still alive at UCLA to cover that.
I just think the arguments to debunk that theory are weak and not in any way conclusive. I don't mind if I'm totally wrong about this because I honestly just want to know how it went down, like everyone else here.
Post by: bec on October 24, 2012, 01:05:50 PM
TS's attempts to debunk this scenario ARE weak, by his own words, he rejects the theory that MJ was there that day by saying "it was too risky", as in "MJ wouldn't DO that" because it doesn't fit into a preconceived notion held by the theorize-r.
And then there's the things he SAYS.
...
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
which indicates to me that there was a change of plans because why else refer to "ORIGINAL" plan if there ended up being subsequent plans.
TS is probably :Pulling_hair: right now at us, Andrea, (& curls too) because we just won't get with the damn program!
This is ARG, TS, therefore there is a fictional aspect. I seek to find that because in finding that, what's left is, by default, the TRUTH. I have a feeling the keys to deciphering one from the other is buried in your words, because you, sir, are NOT a liar.
Post by: jam4truth on October 24, 2012, 01:16:06 PM
I wasn’t sure where to post this, so I am posting in both threads -- this one and the Back and Front thread:
By the way -- have you guys noticed our dear TS’ typing style?
“assUME”
“timE”
Now compare this to Front’s typing style of the same words :suspect: :
“ASSume”
“tIME”
TS’s writing is “Back to Front” :thjajaja121:
Indeed! :abouttime: <-- I just wanted to insert the "thinker-smiley" but this also appropiate and just in TIME ;-)
Post by: ashprak247 on October 24, 2012, 01:35:02 PM
I believe TS and the BAM has gotta be this year 2012.
Both front and TS coming back surely isn't a coincidence.
Here's TS quote on the August 17th update.
It will also be in the year 2012, which we all know by now is a major year in MJ’s hoax (“four years” from 2009, and 911 call at 12:21, FBI files, etc). Of course even if there is an Elvis BAM: he would not be performing again, or even seen in public (other than maybe at Graceland next year). Now I am not saying with any certainty that Elvis will BAM on 8-16-2012; but I am saying that if he ever does, that would be a very likely time. Anyone who has read his book knows that Jesse himself would like the general public to know the truth {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php/topic,16148.0.html}; but he has pressure from family, and especially EPE.
Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!
Post by: ashprak247 on October 24, 2012, 01:43:24 PM
"If you check the closed caption on the TII DVD, you should find the spelling of "four" and NOT "fore". There is, of course, an interesting four year connection from 2005 to 2009; but four years forward (inclusive) is primarily what is being referred to: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012. Also, Paris just verified the year 2012 on her Twitter--which my next redirect will be about, stay tuned. bounce/"
Post by: ashprak247 on October 24, 2012, 01:47:21 PM
My last post was 12 days ago; and in that post I stated: “for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012”, {TIAI August 17, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20134.0}. In that post I also mentioned, for the very first time, the Twitter account for Paris. A few days after my post, La Toya verified her account once again {http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/100693639176523776; http://twitter.com/#!/latoyajackson/status/105425901583466497;
http://twitter.com/#!/pariisjaxn/status/105417423037018112}.
And then, one week later, we had yet another colossal coincidence! :lol: The very same person that TS referred to (Paris), retweeted on the very same subject of that last post (2012 and BAM): “Everyone thinks dinosuars are extinct I bet they are just playing an epic game of hide & seek & then..when 2012 hits BAM! DINOSAUR INVASION” {http://twitter.com/#!/GlRLTHINGS/status/107944495320023040; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php/topic,18330.msg351117.html#msg351117}.
Would real dinosaurs actually play a “game”, and intentionally “hide” (and we should “seek” them)? Are we supposed to conclude that Paris really believes there will be an invasion of literal dinosaurs in 2012? :? :?: :roll: And if not, then what could this possibly mean—other than the obvious!?!
Everyone thinks dinosaurs (giants in music, MJ and Elvis) are extinct (dead); but I bet they are just playing an epic (look this word up) game (ARG) of hide (fake death) & seek (hoax investigation) & then … when 2012 hits BAM (everyone who thinks that these giants are dead, will find out that they are NOT dead)! Could it be any clearer???
This means that we should not expect any BAM before the trail—and yes, there will be a trial. I can’t guarantee that there won’t be any more delays; but at this point, any further delays will most likely be short compared to the previous delays.
Instead of MJ receiving a birthday present, this year he gave a present to his hoax family (a "giant" BAM clue, through Paris). “It is more blessed to give than to receive.” (Acts 20:35).
I finished my last post with this statement, “I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!” And now I will finish this post with the following statement, “If MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that Paris is a fake informer—and even La Toya, since she verified the pariisjaxn Twitter account more than once.”
Post by: Sarahli on October 24, 2012, 01:48:05 PM
I'm with you Andrea, still, on this subject.
TS's attempts to debunk this scenario ARE weak, by his own words, he rejects the theory that MJ was there that day by saying "it was too risky", as in "MJ wouldn't DO that" because it doesn't fit into a preconceived notion held by the theorize-r.
And then there's the things he SAYS....
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
which indicates to me that there was a change of plans because why else refer to "ORIGINAL" plan if there ended up being subsequent plans.
This is not what I understand. Here TS is answering Souza and this is Souza who is first talking about Michael’s "original plan" and it seems to me that in his answer TS talks about the original plan in order to reinforce the notion that it was not Michael’s intent to be present at the hospital even from the preparation stages. He ends by saying that it wasn't his plan: "therefore, that was not his plan".
Post by: Andrea on October 24, 2012, 01:54:17 PM
I'm with you Andrea, still, on this subject.
TS's attempts to debunk this scenario ARE weak, by his own words, he rejects the theory that MJ was there that day by saying "it was too risky", as in "MJ wouldn't DO that" because it doesn't fit into a preconceived notion held by the theorize-r.
And then there's the things he SAYS....
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
which indicates to me that there was a change of plans because why else refer to "ORIGINAL" plan if there ended up being subsequent plans.
TS is probably :Pulling_hair: right now at us, Andrea, (& curls too) because we just won't get with the damn program!
This is ARG, TS, therefore there is a fictional aspect. I seek to find that because in finding that, what's left is, by default, the TRUTH. I have a feeling the keys to deciphering one from the other is buried in your words, because you, sir, are NOT a liar.
Yep, agreed. Hope you're not really losing hair over this TS but you do word things in a way that can sometimes say one thing and mean another.
Like this:
TS
Quote
In this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher. ... First of all, we do NOT have two or three evidences indicating that MJ sat up ...http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg374621.html#msg374621
Could be read as MJ was indeed on stretcher, he just never sat up. I know I've mentioned this before but it's still relevant. I didn't quote the whole post but click above, it's a good refresher.
Post by: paula-c on October 24, 2012, 02:12:50 PM
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 24, 2012, 07:48:22 PM
I'm with you Andrea, still, on this subject.
TS's attempts to debunk this scenario ARE weak, by his own words, he rejects the theory that MJ was there that day by saying "it was too risky", as in "MJ wouldn't DO that" because it doesn't fit into a preconceived notion held by the theorize-r.
And then there's the things he SAYS....
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
which indicates to me that there was a change of plans because why else refer to "ORIGINAL" plan if there ended up being subsequent plans.
TS is probably :Pulling_hair: right now at us, Andrea, (& curls too) because we just won't get with the damn program!
This is ARG, TS, therefore there is a fictional aspect. I seek to find that because in finding that, what's left is, by default, the TRUTH. I have a feeling the keys to deciphering one from the other is buried in your words, because you, sir, are NOT a liar.
Yep, agreed. Hope you're not really losing hair over this TS but you do word things in a way that can sometimes say one thing and mean another.
Like this:
TSQuoteIn this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher. ... First of all, we do NOT have two or three evidences indicating that MJ sat up ...http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg374621.html#msg374621
Could be read as MJ was indeed on stretcher, he just never sat up. I know I've mentioned this before but it's still relevant. I didn't quote the whole post but click above, it's a good refresher.
What I keep asking myself is if wanted he's plan to go right with no hitch, then why couldn't he 'die' at the house, there was no need to go to UCLA, was there? The only significance was the time (2:26).
I do still think however MJ was on the stretcher in the helicopter and the ambo, what's to say he wasn't. Doesn't it outweigh the risks to have MJ himself play dead?
Post by: paula-c on October 24, 2012, 08:14:17 PM
Post by: Andrea on October 24, 2012, 08:24:50 PM
I'm with you Andrea, still, on this subject.
TS's attempts to debunk this scenario ARE weak, by his own words, he rejects the theory that MJ was there that day by saying "it was too risky", as in "MJ wouldn't DO that" because it doesn't fit into a preconceived notion held by the theorize-r.
And then there's the things he SAYS....
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
which indicates to me that there was a change of plans because why else refer to "ORIGINAL" plan if there ended up being subsequent plans.
TS is probably :Pulling_hair: right now at us, Andrea, (& curls too) because we just won't get with the damn program!
This is ARG, TS, therefore there is a fictional aspect. I seek to find that because in finding that, what's left is, by default, the TRUTH. I have a feeling the keys to deciphering one from the other is buried in your words, because you, sir, are NOT a liar.
Yep, agreed. Hope you're not really losing hair over this TS but you do word things in a way that can sometimes say one thing and mean another.
Like this:
TSQuoteIn this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher. ... First of all, we do NOT have two or three evidences indicating that MJ sat up ...http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg374621.html#msg374621
Could be read as MJ was indeed on stretcher, he just never sat up. I know I've mentioned this before but it's still relevant. I didn't quote the whole post but click above, it's a good refresher.
What I keep asking myself is if wanted he's plan to go right with no hitch, then why couldn't he 'die' at the house, there was no need to go to UCLA, was there? The only significance was the time (2:26).
I do still think however MJ was on the stretcher in the helicopter and the ambo, what's to say he wasn't. Doesn't it outweigh the risks to have MJ himself play dead?
According to some reports, MJ DID 'die' at Carolwood but Murray refused to call it. Why go to UCLA? Probably to create 'realism' for public perception and really, it's a much more interesting storyline. Going to UCLA created - the staged ambulance photo, emotional family scenes at the hospital (allegedly), the bizarre 'death' announcement by Jermaine and Tohme Tohme instead of a UCLA/public official, crowds in the streets, action-movie shots of the helicopter ride...the list goes on.
Post by: bec on October 24, 2012, 10:17:29 PM
...well ok TS, how 'bout that? Having Murray refusing to pronounce MJ dead and insisting on going to UCLA via ambulance is probably THE RISKIEST SCENARIO in which to fake your death short of an actual public death (run over by car outside greeting fans or something), that's about as public as it gets, so we could use your "supportive evidence" right back against you and say, ok fine it's too risky to have MJ himself go to UCLA, so why would That exact Scenario get written into MJ's script at all? It's a huge rats nest of potential problems (risk!) and invites scores more people in (more risk!) who have to be either A) directly fooled in the first person or B) brought in on the hoax, so really, you just debunked the whole hoax right there. MJ must be dead because MJ the cautious yet daring genius that he is, would never paint himself into a corner like this. He is limited only by his imagination when choosing how he will die and he chooses this?? Seems unbelievable if he's concerned about someone "spilling the beans".
Ps. TS, can you tell that I've missed you? :icon_bounce:
Post by: MJonmind on October 24, 2012, 11:36:38 PM
Bec
Quote
Hey yeah, good point, UYI, thanks. TS keeps saying how MJ didn't go to UCLA that day because it would be too risky, and yes everything has risk but that would be the RISKIEST scenario of all...At the time he said it, I remember thinking what a lame excuse that was... :icon_bounce: :icon_lol:
And do you think this is also a game of Bluff, between TS and us, as well as an ARG, like a poker game?
TS
Quote
Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.I still think it was a hospice patient on life support, though MJ was close at hand (in there like a dirty shirt) disguised as some other key person. Elvis’ hoax scenario could give clues, since Elvis says the doctor might have had to pull the plug early on the hospice patient to accommodate the hoax timing, but Elvis stayed hidden in the house while the drama outside with the public went on. Also just a note, that one of the charities for Michael Bush's book on MJ's clothes is a Hospice Center.
At 2:01:35, https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rYu-P92ILDE
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,23442.msg426869/topicseen.html#new
Post by: ellyd on October 25, 2012, 12:46:45 AM
Quote
According to some reports, MJ DID 'die' at Carolwood but Murray refused to call it. Why go to UCLA? Probably to create 'realism' for public perception and really, it's a much more interesting storyline. Going to UCLA created - the staged ambulance photo, emotional family scenes at the hospital (allegedly), the bizarre 'death' announcement by Jermaine and Tohme Tohme instead of a UCLA/public official, crowds in the streets, action-movie shots of the helicopter ride...the list goes on.
A public location supports a hoax for several reasons. UCLA is an ideal locations to provide better view for the media chaos, more space to greet spectators, a favorable infrastructure, a closeup to create barrier and taboo / mystery at the same moment, all just fine to bring up all kinds of questions. A hospital adds drama and emotional involvement, too. Edutainment needs some education about the unknown or else it is a home reality show soon to be forgotten.
Conversion factor needs hospital. Death is the ultimate taboo. Being left alone is the ultimate existential question.
Early news said MJ was brought to Cedars Sinai - early coma news chaos phase.
"Police in Los Angeles have blockaded streets around Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/music/story/2009/06/25/michael-jackson.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/music/story/2009/06/25/michael-jackson.html)
This article was updated later, mentioning UCLA.
UCLA has a body donation program. UCLA executed a hospital move into new buildings in June 2008, providing free access to the public (and an opportunity to check location details) before opening the new facilities for operation.
UCLA was in the news repeatedly for breaching confidentiality and leaking patient information to the media.
There were more corruption allegations in the house. Just one:
Jackson's hospital known for 'raising the dead'
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31686168/ns/health-heart_health/t/jacksons-hospital-known-raising-dead/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31686168/ns/health-heart_health/t/jacksons-hospital-known-raising-dead/)
The same Dr. Gerald Buckberg:
UCLA surgeon sued for benefiting from his own charity
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/10/local/me-ucla-professor10 (http://articles.latimes.com/2009/sep/10/local/me-ucla-professor10)
The fire drill happened at the cancer hospital near Ronald Reagan MC.
Dying at home would have been more than boring and would not have served the purpose at all.
Looking back, it all fits very well.
Post by: curls on October 25, 2012, 01:09:34 AM
Hey yeah, good point, UYI, thanks. TS keeps saying how MJ didn't go to UCLA that day because it would be too risky, and yes everything has risk but that would be the RISKIEST scenario of all...
...well ok TS, how 'bout that? Having Murray refusing to pronounce MJ dead and insisting on going to UCLA via ambulance is probably THE RISKIEST SCENARIO in which to fake your death short of an actual public death (run over by car outside greeting fans or something), that's about as public as it gets, so we could use your "supportive evidence" right back against you and say, ok fine it's too risky to have MJ himself go to UCLA, so why would That exact Scenario get written into MJ's script at all? It's a huge rats nest of potential problems (risk!) and invites scores more people in (more risk!) who have to be either A) directly fooled in the first person or B) brought in on the hoax, so really, you just debunked the whole hoax right there. MJ must be dead because MJ the cautious yet daring genius that he is, would never paint himself into a corner like this. He is limited only by his imagination when choosing how he will die and he chooses this?? Seems unbelievable if he's concerned about someone "spilling the beans".
Ps. TS, can you tell that I've missed you? :icon_bounce:
Bec, :th_bravo: this is an amazingly brilliant genius post! :bearhug: And UYI thanks for putting the idea forward - indeed, why the heck was UCLA included at all, if we're talking risk v dramatic storyline? Even the 2:26 time you bring up, is the least important bit of the numbers game, according to TS himself! (Sorry I don't have time right now to find the quote but I read it only yesterday.)
Post by: bec on October 25, 2012, 01:26:38 AM
and thanks!
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 25, 2012, 01:58:50 AM
I'm with you Andrea, still, on this subject.
TS's attempts to debunk this scenario ARE weak, by his own words, he rejects the theory that MJ was there that day by saying "it was too risky", as in "MJ wouldn't DO that" because it doesn't fit into a preconceived notion held by the theorize-r.
And then there's the things he SAYS....
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
which indicates to me that there was a change of plans because why else refer to "ORIGINAL" plan if there ended up being subsequent plans.
TS is probably :Pulling_hair: right now at us, Andrea, (& curls too) because we just won't get with the damn program!
This is ARG, TS, therefore there is a fictional aspect. I seek to find that because in finding that, what's left is, by default, the TRUTH. I have a feeling the keys to deciphering one from the other is buried in your words, because you, sir, are NOT a liar.
Yep, agreed. Hope you're not really losing hair over this TS but you do word things in a way that can sometimes say one thing and mean another.
Like this:
TSQuoteIn this post, I’m going to be debunking the theory that MJ sat up in the stretcher. ... First of all, we do NOT have two or three evidences indicating that MJ sat up ...http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg374621.html#msg374621
Could be read as MJ was indeed on stretcher, he just never sat up. I know I've mentioned this before but it's still relevant. I didn't quote the whole post but click above, it's a good refresher.
What I keep asking myself is if wanted he's plan to go right with no hitch, then why couldn't he 'die' at the house, there was no need to go to UCLA, was there? The only significance was the time (2:26).
I do still think however MJ was on the stretcher in the helicopter and the ambo, what's to say he wasn't. Doesn't it outweigh the risks to have MJ himself play dead?
According to some reports, MJ DID 'die' at Carolwood but Murray refused to call it. Why go to UCLA? Probably to create 'realism' for public perception and really, it's a much more interesting storyline. Going to UCLA created - the staged ambulance photo, emotional family scenes at the hospital (allegedly), the bizarre 'death' announcement by Jermaine and Tohme Tohme instead of a UCLA/public official, crowds in the streets, action-movie shots of the helicopter ride...the list goes on.
Well if you look at the scene;
MJ going to UCLA = risky, more hoax players, more realism and Michaelish (interesting storyline)
MJ dying at Carolwood = less risky, less hoax players, less interesting
But...there is still a way for MJ to 'die' at Carolwood with the storyline being just as interesting and realistic. You can still keep the rest of the storyline but change the story before/during when MJ 'died' into something more mysterious/interesting. Jermaine could have still made the announcement, crowds will still be able to show, family emotion would still be able to be seen (maybe at the Morgue). So instead of MJ going to UCLA, he could just go to the Morgue, it's still probably a lot safer then going to a public hospital with so many risky factors and of course he'd have to go somewhere after he 'died' then to just leave a dead body in the house, I think we can establish that. So regardless if MJ died at Carolwood he would still have to be taken away.
Hey yeah, good point, UYI, thanks. TS keeps saying how MJ didn't go to UCLA that day because it would be too risky, and yes everything has risk but that would be the RISKIEST scenario of all...
...well ok TS, how 'bout that? Having Murray refusing to pronounce MJ dead and insisting on going to UCLA via ambulance is probably THE RISKIEST SCENARIO in which to fake your death short of an actual public death (run over by car outside greeting fans or something), that's about as public as it gets, so we could use your "supportive evidence" right back against you and say, ok fine it's too risky to have MJ himself go to UCLA, so why would That exact Scenario get written into MJ's script at all? It's a huge rats nest of potential problems (risk!) and invites scores more people in (more risk!) who have to be either A) directly fooled in the first person or B) brought in on the hoax, so really, you just debunked the whole hoax right there. MJ must be dead because MJ the cautious yet daring genius that he is, would never paint himself into a corner like this. He is limited only by his imagination when choosing how he will die and he chooses this?? Seems unbelievable if he's concerned about someone "spilling the beans".
Ps. TS, can you tell that I've missed you? :icon_bounce:
Exactly.
Also this hoax is full of numerology, the date of death, Elvis connections etc. But MJ going to UCLA and Murray insisting that he be taken there has no real significance in my opinion. MJ was driven to UCLA and pronounced dead then, but any other place, hospital, morgue etc. would be just as efficient. What is so important about UCLA, why was Murray so adamant about UCLA? Is it just part of the storyline or does it mean something else? In my opinion I do not see how MJ going to UCLA fits in, it makes no sense to me that MJ would do this, when there is NO reason to.
Thanks Paula for posting thoseFBIbodyguards pics. :icon_e_biggrin:
BecQuoteHey yeah, good point, UYI, thanks. TS keeps saying how MJ didn't go to UCLA that day because it would be too risky, and yes everything has risk but that would be the RISKIEST scenario of all...At the time he said it, I remember thinking what a lame excuse that was... :icon_bounce: :icon_lol:
And do you think this is also a game of Bluff, between TS and us, as well as an ARG, like a poker game?
LOL, yep lame-O :icon_geek: Well MJ was reported as going to UCLA, everyone was there, the ambo arrived there etc. I don't think this is a game between TS and us. First and foremost the whole point of this hoax are the points TS gave us, EOW, NWO etc. It will be too risky to factor us in to the death hoax story with the UCLA issue. TS has played his little ARG and games with us in so many other ways i.e making us think for ourselves etc. so I don't think so, it would be too risky and anyway 25-6-2009 was a bluff, meant to fool all of us, or indeed like it has, most of us.
Hey yeah, good point, UYI, thanks. TS keeps saying how MJ didn't go to UCLA that day because it would be too risky, and yes everything has risk but that would be the RISKIEST scenario of all...
...well ok TS, how 'bout that? Having Murray refusing to pronounce MJ dead and insisting on going to UCLA via ambulance is probably THE RISKIEST SCENARIO in which to fake your death short of an actual public death (run over by car outside greeting fans or something), that's about as public as it gets, so we could use your "supportive evidence" right back against you and say, ok fine it's too risky to have MJ himself go to UCLA, so why would That exact Scenario get written into MJ's script at all? It's a huge rats nest of potential problems (risk!) and invites scores more people in (more risk!) who have to be either A) directly fooled in the first person or B) brought in on the hoax, so really, you just debunked the whole hoax right there. MJ must be dead because MJ the cautious yet daring genius that he is, would never paint himself into a corner like this. He is limited only by his imagination when choosing how he will die and he chooses this?? Seems unbelievable if he's concerned about someone "spilling the beans".
Ps. TS, can you tell that I've missed you? :icon_bounce:
Bec, :th_bravo: this is an amazingly brilliant genius post! :bearhug: And UYI thanks for putting the idea forward - indeed, why the heck was UCLA included at all, if we're talking risk v dramatic storyline? Even the 2:26 time you bring up, is the least important bit of the numbers game, according to TS himself! (Sorry I don't have time right now to find the quote but I read it only yesterday.)
Yes it is, just realized it when you said that and when Bec mentioned it wasn't divisible by 111, so it is the least important.
Also I can't get my head around the scenario. So TS asked us, who went to UCLA, if anything. But regardless of who went, what went or if MJ went, you would still come up with the same thing...it is damn risky, the more I look at it, the more it looks really sloppy and not required and MJ is anything but sloppy.
Post by: flory24 on October 25, 2012, 03:09:05 AM
Also I can't get my head around the scenario. So TS asked us, who went to UCLA, if anything. But regardless of who went, what went or if MJ went, you would still come up with the same thing...it is damn risky, the more I look at it, the more it looks really sloppy and not required and MJ is anything but sloppy.
Are we sure, that on 25 june 2009 went someone to UCLA? Are we sure that the picture with those people on UCLA are from 25 June 2009? I remember reading (dont know where) on exif that that picture was taken earlier.
Why there is nobody to tell us that he or she saw Michael at the hospital that day?
According wikipedia Ed McMahon died on June 23, 2009, shortly after midnight at the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles, California. He was 86 years old. His nurse, Julie Koehne, RN, stated he went peacefully. No formal cause of death was given, but McMahon's publicist attributed his death to the many health problems he had suffered over his final months. McMahon had said that he still suffered from the injury to his neck in March 2007. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_McMahon#Death
What if that picture we all saw was from june 23 not from june 25?
Just my opinions...dont shoot me :icon_redface:
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 25, 2012, 04:22:26 AM
Also I can't get my head around the scenario. So TS asked us, who went to UCLA, if anything. But regardless of who went, what went or if MJ went, you would still come up with the same thing...it is damn risky, the more I look at it, the more it looks really sloppy and not required and MJ is anything but sloppy.
Are we sure, that on 25 june 2009 went someone to UCLA? Are we sure that the picture with those people on UCLA are from 25 June 2009? I remember reading (dont know where) on exif that that picture was taken earlier.
Why there is nobody to tell us that he or she saw Michael at the hospital that day?
According wikipedia Ed McMahon died on June 23, 2009, shortly after midnight at the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles, California. He was 86 years old. His nurse, Julie Koehne, RN, stated he went peacefully. No formal cause of death was given, but McMahon's publicist attributed his death to the many health problems he had suffered over his final months. McMahon had said that he still suffered from the injury to his neck in March 2007. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_McMahon#Death
What if that picture we all saw was from june 23 not from june 25?
Just my opinions...dont shoot me :icon_redface:
Do you remember the investigation threads that TS started? Well TS asked us to figure out what went to UCLA (a dead body, double, MJ or nothing) I'm pretty sure 'nothing' got debunked and 'MJ going to UCLA' was debunked. But on June 25th 2009 something DID go to UCLA, but the photo that was taken of MJ in the ambo wasn't taken on the fly (not all of it anyway), but some photo was staged before June 25th by the photog Ben (that day and the other da... guy).
Do you mean the fans waiting outside UCLA? Well yes they were really there that day.
Sorry what picture from June 23rd do you mean?
Post by: 2good2btrue on October 25, 2012, 07:04:10 AM
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/ambo.jpg)
Post by: GINAFELICIA on October 25, 2012, 09:26:26 AM
Post by: paula-c on October 25, 2012, 10:55:33 AM
This is a picture taken by Ben Evensted on the 25th June 2009...from a different angle...It clearly shows "something" on the stretcher, and someone shirtless...So I beleive we concluded that "something was transported that day, with Paramedics from #71, and MJ's bodyguards...
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/ambo.jpg)
Someone who died, or someone who was alive and did not need any medication for what in the photo there is no IV
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ivcomp10.jpg)
Post by: paula-c on October 25, 2012, 11:03:20 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X3NLmHZO2XE[/youtube]
Post by: bec on October 25, 2012, 11:14:12 AM
I mean it's been a long time but it's all on this thread right here so let's not muddy the waters too much.
The only reason I can think of MJ having to go to UCLA is so they could court a large crowd of people. You couldn't fit a large crowd of people on the street in front of Carrolwood.
BUT.
A. They could have selected a hoax house which was in a location that could accommodate a large crowd of people.
B. The 2 hours and 5 minutes that MJ was reportedly being worked on was the factor that allowed a large crowd of people to collect at the scene. As noted the 2:26pm calling of death was the least important number in the numerology so this wasn't really necessary, or at least the least necessary factor. So I am left thinking that the large crowd of people being drawn to a vigil was important. Perhaps just the media factor, a large crowd of people holding vigil for MJ outside the facility was important for the hoax story, the resurrection of MJ's image began right then. So how could we have a large crowd of people gather to hold vigil WITHOUT MJ going to UCLA?
C. I'm led back to A. They could have selected a hoax house which could have accommodated a large crowd of people outside. However, Carrolwood is located kitty-corner from a house owned by Elvis. Carrolwood is surrounded by a solid exterior wall with a gated entrance. That can't be too unusual in LA., even though the location proxy to the Elvis house could be hard to come by. So was the location near the Elvis house so important that it necessitated the UCLA mess? With all the other hints, clues, and connections embedded within this hoax, it's difficult to believe a location near an Elvis house would be the link in the chain that required such an extreme risk as sending "MJ" to UCLA that day.
D. Just occurred to me, MJ could have "died" at Staples Center during a rehearsal. Word could be "leaked" that MJ had a heart attack while rehearsing, paramedics could have attended, a large crowd could easily be accommodated outside, and after a time, the body could go directly to the corner's office (who is already, clearly, in on it).
Seems to me that would work without the giant mess that would be/was UCLA involvement. Of course we would have missed out on the helicopter ride. I dunno, The Scenario is/was perfect drama for Live TV, so it is/was genius, but the UCLA factor is/was, no matter how you look at it, a GIANT risk, perhaps one not even crucial to the success of the project?
It's tough to dance around without conceding that MJ must be dead based on TS's argument of risk avoidance.
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 25, 2012, 11:26:17 AM
Post by: paula-c on October 25, 2012, 02:02:36 PM
My logic says to me that a “body” had to be taken from Carolwood to UCLA to distract attention of the goings on and clean up efforts, staging, etc. at the home long enough for loose ends to be tied together before attention was reverted back to the residence.
The medical staff of the UCLA, the paramedics and bodyguards were creating a scene lure of his body being transferred to distract the media, that makes sense
Post by: MJonmind on October 25, 2012, 04:43:16 PM
Quote
The only reason I can think of MJ having to go to UCLA is so they could court a large crowd of people. You couldn't fit a large crowd of people on the street in front of Carrolwood.That’s why a parade—it accommodates larger amounts of people for a longer period of time. MJ’s hoax literally paraded along a considerable stretch for maximum complexity as well. Route –Staples, Carolwood (including Elvis’ former house), UCLA, coroner’s garage & office, Forest Lawn—City of Angels generally. As far as risk though, busy-ness and a flurry of events helps to cover/hide deliberate or accidental inconsistencies/hoax clues. That’s how magicians do their tricking. The biggest puzzle to me is who knew and who didn’t as it was happening. So TS-- "risk" shmisk. :icon_lol:
Post by: Adi on October 25, 2012, 04:55:45 PM
It doesn't necessarily mean MJ was there....just the illusion he was there would have been enough to implement the scenes that day outside UCLA which were beamed all over the world.
Post by: Andrea on October 25, 2012, 06:57:28 PM
I had to go back and double check the wording of the verdict being read in the Conrad Murray trial for reference:
Alleged victim: Michael Joseph Jackson
Alleged date of June 25th 2009
Just thinking out loud here.......if the Dr M trial/court was real and was being used for a sting operation then does the use of "alleged victim" and "alleged date" cover them? IDK......
Good question. :icon_idea:
Now you have something else to research ...
:icon_bounce:
Bear with me but I'm going slightly off topic here. (Apologies my friends!)
About the FBI...
Maybe...the sting is against the FBI, or an internal sting - going on the assumption, for the purpose of this post, that there IS a sting.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJTN1AIKgXk[/youtube]
Remember this video? MJ was HEAVILY scrutinized by the FBI for years, quite intrusively. It started with death threats against MJ then continued with the molestation allegations. Brian Oxman claims it was he who requested the files on MJ be released (back in Aug '09) and the 333 pages were released on 12/22/09 (intended for 12/21). He says he knew, as an attorney, that the FBI were significantly involved in Michael's life.
One of the FBI's top priorities is public corruption in government agencies so I imagine theoretically that this could include the FBI themselves. The X Files is a perfect example of corruption within the upper echelons of the organization. If TPTB wanted to nail MJ to the cross with the allegations, they could muscle their way in via the FBI in an effort to intimidate Michael and make his life hell. However, in the process, they found no evidence against Michael. Did they stop keeping an eye on MJ? Probably not. Is it possible that during this, some honest agents saw what was really happening and teamed up with Michael for his hoax and a sting against their own agency? Ya it's possible.
The FBI numerology (333, 12/21) therefore could've been a wink from MJ's team OR it could've been from the "other" side letting Michael know they were onto him.
Once again sorry for off-topic'ing here. I just had these thoughts come to me about an hour ago and wanted to put them out there, right or wrong.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on October 25, 2012, 07:25:28 PM
Well for risk avoidance all that was done was that the masses were led to believe that MJ went to UCLA via what was reported by the absolute media frenzy (who must have been fed that information via "someone else").
It doesn't necessarily mean MJ was there....just the illusion he was there would have been enough to implement the scenes that day outside UCLA which were beamed all over the world.
Good point.
To attain the highest media attention as possible on a public place like the UCLA. If the UCLA, helicopter, ambulance, paramedics a.o. were not be a part on this hoax it would have been less sensational, dramatic and complicated. The more a detailed, well thought out and complex scenario, the more credible and convincing the hoax, which I think is risk avoidance too.
@TS, thank you for the leads, much appreciated :) I allegedly failed to find the words "alleged murderer" and/or "alleged victim" in a verdict during a trial movie, so it is possible that MJ's alleged movie about this hoax might be the first movie EVER who uses these words during a verdict, which makes it phenomenal :icon_e_wink:.
Post by: bugsy on October 25, 2012, 07:54:44 PM
what testimonies were useful in the trial? was any of the testimonies from those in UCLA helpful towards to clues? I haven't watched all testimonies as yet
Post by: Adi on October 25, 2012, 07:56:01 PM
Anyway thinking about this principle - the hoax and how it was pulled off immediately sprung into my mind. It reminded me of what TS talked about at the very beginning of this Level:
Quote
At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Post by: Andrea on October 25, 2012, 08:16:28 PM
Last night I was watching the Jodie Foster movie "Contact" and in it was mentioned something called "Occam's razor" which is a principle stating that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected. The razor states that one should proceed to simpler theories until simplicity can be traded for greater explanatory power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
Anyway thinking about this principle - the hoax and how it was pulled off immediately sprung into my mind. It reminded me of what TS talked about at the very beginning of this Level:QuoteAt this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
This does make me wonder which June 25 scenario makes the fewest assumptions. Pretty much all of them require the same key people to be in on it.
Post by: Andrea on October 25, 2012, 08:27:09 PM
Post by: paula-c on October 25, 2012, 08:30:49 PM
Anyone know if that day had any ban on flights over the area where is the house.?
Post by: Adi on October 25, 2012, 09:49:23 PM
Actually, the fewest assumptions principle could eliminate MJ leaving on a jet plane because that theory would be adding an airport and its officials - in addition to a hospital.
If we follow that Occam's razor principle then yes it does......in fact following that principle then the simplest explanation is that MJ is dead...... :errrr:
I think I'll forget I read about that principle and carry on as usual :icon_e_biggrin:
Post by: bec on October 25, 2012, 11:29:54 PM
Actually, the fewest assumptions principle could eliminate MJ leaving on a jet plane because that theory would be adding an airport and its officials - in addition to a hospital.
If we follow that Occam's razor principle then yes it does......in fact following that principle then the simplest explanation is that MJ is dead...... :errrr:
I think I'll forget I read about that principle and carry on as usual :icon_e_biggrin:
See but that's not at all the simplest explanation which is why we are all here. That explanation forces you to believe all these inconsistencies and discrepancies are just how things are in real life and all the numbers are just coincidences and MJ's entire family are callous and completely uncaring AND sociopathic enough to perpetuate a false hoax for years... including his 15 year old daughter. So really, that explanation asks us to make quite a few assumptions to arrive at it.
I agree completely with Andrea. Sending MJ off to the airport as "risk avoidance" necessitates an entire second location and entire second set of people to either fool or let in on things. If it's so risky to send MJ to the hospital when everyone in the world KNOWS he's there anyway, then how is it comparably safe to send him to an airport to get on a plane outa dodge when he's supposed to be dead at UCLA?
One could argue, well MJ escaped the night before, no one was looking for him at the time nor was anyone even probably thinking about MJ. True, however, this is the most famous man in the world. If you see MJ, it isn't something you're likely to forget, no matter how you feel about him, and you ESPECIALLY don't forget it when 24hrs later he's suddenly dead, with his body being flown around on live TV and the internet crashes. You remember and you go, wait, I saw him at LAX last night... wtf??
So then you have the same series of problems. How did they get MJ into and out of LAX with no one being the wiser?
You use a disguise. Someone else on the stretcher, and all eyes are there. No one is looking at anyone or anything else. He could be his own bodyguard or paramedic, the stretcher draws everyone's attention. MJ could have walked into UCLA in disguise easily, and could have walked right out as well.
Surely MJ didn't just figure out how to disguise himself so effectively right before LKL?
Ps.
Regarding the "Body" going to UCLA...
what testimonies were useful in the trial? was any of the testimonies from those in UCLA helpful towards to clues? I haven't watched all testimonies as yet
Please review the thread from page 1, it will answer all your questions. We can't slow down for those who are new, but thankfully you can catch up by reading from the beginning.
Post by: Adi on October 25, 2012, 11:38:46 PM
Post by: bugsy on October 26, 2012, 12:33:10 AM
Ps.Regarding the "Body" going to UCLA...
what testimonies were useful in the trial? was any of the testimonies from those in UCLA helpful towards to clues? I haven't watched all testimonies as yet
Please review the thread from page 1, it will answer all your questions. We can't slow down for those who are new, but thankfully you can catch up by reading from the beginning.
it was a rhetorical question more so that actual questions.
I don't buy into the UCLA trip was merely to gain a larger crowd, it seems rather thin layered and superficial. The testimonies that happened in the trial of conrad murray would not have existed which would have made it less complicated, less timely and the Dr Murray Character looses some depth on top of that the strange times of the surveilance camera's at the hospital also doesn't exist... less holes in the whole hoax for people to pick out.. How much of the trial was about Doctor Murray, Paramedics and the people from the hospital? and again that's a rhetorical question.
Post by: MJonmind on October 26, 2012, 02:15:18 AM
In the new ‘Elvis is Alive’ CD rap song, Elvis sings that he was a Federal agent, so maybe he did have a hand in MJ’s case and hoax, who knows.
And unfortunately, there is the dreadful possibility that the incredible numerology and whole entire hoax is not from MJ at all, but from TPTB, Sony, Branca, big companies like Coke, media and all (including FBI), that they have paid off the entire family or threatened them, and MJ is dead. And TS is on payroll as well. The hoax within the hoax in a bad way. But I reject this notion. :errrr: :icon_mrgreen:
Leilani81
Quote
Regarding the "Body" going to UCLA...
what testimonies were useful in the trial? was any of the testimonies from those in UCLA helpful towards to clues? I haven't watched all testimonies as yet
Well this was preliminary to the trial:
http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0622_michael_jackson_Preliminary.pdf
Quote
B. Defendant’s Misrepresentations to and Concealment from UCLA Doctors.
1. Defendant’s false statements to Dr. Cooper.
14. On June 25, 2009, at 13:15 hours or 1:15 p.m., the paramedics brought Michael Jackson into
the UCLA emergency room. Defendant Murray was present, and in his presence Michael Jackson was
identified to UCLA personnel under the false name Soule Shaun.
What also comes to my mind is Kathy Hilton. She tells Pierce Morgan that she went to UCLA that day, that Latoya and Randy let her in the room where MJ supposedly was, and she said he was dead. However this is where it gets bizarre. At 2:20 she rubbed his head, feet and whispered funny things in his ear. :affraid: So was this a dead hospice patient or MJ in bed pretending to be dead? :icon_lol:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJQZPhtU7Ho[/youtube]
I agree that this working back from MJ is dead scenario, and including only the fewest people needed for a hoax, is really simplest if MJ is there in disguise, with everyone's focus on the stretcher.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on October 26, 2012, 03:16:45 AM
:icon_e_sad:
There were some movies relevant for this hoax, starting with The court of Last resort, then Gilda and The Illusionist and V for Vendetta and 2012. TS can't you please narrow the research area and give us some hints?
Post by: suspicious mind on October 26, 2012, 06:57:40 AM
Actually, the fewest assumptions principle could eliminate MJ leaving on a jet plane because that theory would be adding an airport and its officials - in addition to a hospital.
perhaps at some point ( i am guessing long ago ) he found a way to come and go as he pleased unnoticed and without all the hoopla.
we saw murray running round all over with just one person . come to think of it why did he need that person anyway? body guard ? why was that dude the one who was forking over the money for the balloon that was bought for the kid that one time? personal assistant? and where and when did this person become involved? just wondering.
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 26, 2012, 07:39:00 AM
Post by: BeTheChange on October 26, 2012, 08:05:09 AM
At this point, even 3+ years later...there's no way to prove conclusively where he was/went that day. He could have gone to UCLA or he could just as easily (even more so actually) hopped on a plane. Because of that...the lack of 'concrete' proof of anything and these circles that seem to lead us nowhere other than to more assumptions and speculations....I'm kinda confused as to why TS is having us revisit this once again. I'm actually finding it very difficult to go BACK to where we were a year ago and try to now make sense of things that we couldn't/didn't prove then, with no new/additional 'evidence' to take into account. I guess, on some level, it can help 'occupy' us....but based on what TS presented to us in The Signs, I've been pretty 'occupied' lol...as I'm sure others have as well. It's like 'he' gave us the keys to the world....and is now asking us to scurry back into a crawl space. Not impossible to do...and if it will now lead us to concrete answers, then I'm all for it. But, for me, it will take some mental maneuvering to scale back the expansion that 'HE' helped create.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Adi on October 26, 2012, 08:18:36 AM
Post by: Adi on October 26, 2012, 08:23:07 AM
I'm sure TS didn't ask about that movie for nothing....there must be something very interesting about it and it's very frustrating that I can't find or guess what movie is that.
:icon_e_sad:
There were some movies relevant for this hoax, starting with The court of Last resort, then Gilda and The Illusionist and V for Vendetta and 2012. TS can't you please narrow the research area and give us some hints?
I don't think anyone has been able to locate a trial/court movie Gina where the word "alleged" is used in the verdict reading. Perhaps as Andrea suggested - an exercise in fultility? to keep us occupied? idk......
Post by: Loveunited on October 26, 2012, 08:53:36 AM
So I think it is important to look at who showed up and is documented at UCLA?
Tohme Tohme showed up. and acted as if he were still involved in MJs business... (where in the shadows is this man now?)
Post by: Andrea on October 26, 2012, 09:22:01 AM
I can't envision Mike waiting in a line to check in bags at any airport (past or present)...and then sitting and waiting for some commercial plane to arrive to take him wherever he needs/wants to go. People at Mike's level of means usually don't...he, most likely, has visited many airports where only a very few number of people even knew he was there. (I have a relative who hasn't seen the inside of an airport in over 10 years, after he bought a private jet, yet travels very extensively). This, of course, doesn't mean that he boarded a plane on June 25th....but the point is that IF he did, the 'risk' factor would be very minimal, not the other way around. If there was fear/risk of exposure, he could just as easily have donned one of his many disguises as he could have IF he went to UCLA....a disguise for the trip from Carolwood (or wherever) to the tarmac, to the short walk from his vehicle, to the steps of a private plane (if this took place at night, then lack of natural light would have provided additional cover). We're talking Mike here....not a 'regular' traveler/passenger...and there was that plane that did take off 'undercover' from LAX that day to places unknown.
At this point, even 3+ years later...there's no way to prove conclusively where he was/went that day. He could have gone to UCLA or he could just as easily (even more so actually) hopped on a plane. Because of that...the lack of 'concrete' proof of anything and these circles that seem to lead us nowhere other than to more assumptions and speculations....I'm kinda confused as to why TS is having us revisit this once again. I'm actually finding it very difficult to go BACK to where we were a year ago and try to now make sense of things that we couldn't/didn't prove then, with no new/additional 'evidence' to take into account. I guess, on some level, it can help 'occupy' us....but based on what TS presented to us in The Signs, I've been pretty 'occupied' lol...as I'm sure others have as well. It's like 'he' gave us the keys to the world....and is now asking us to scurry back into a crawl space. Not impossible to do...and if it will now lead us to concrete answers, then I'm all for it. But, for me, it will take some mental maneuvering to scale back the expansion that 'HE' helped create.
With L.O.V.E. always.
I agree there's no way that MJ would go to the airport like a 'regular' person, he would've always been driven directly to his plane - no customs/check-in/luggage drop-off and retrieval that the general population has to suffer through, lol. But still going on TS's "the fewer the better" scenario, there would still be the 2nd location needed (airport), a pilot and a tarmac official (?) - not to mention the 3rd location on the plane's destination - whether MJ was in a disguise or not.
I like to think that MJ pulled off this hoax in plain sight that day, whether in disguise around the stretcher or on the stretcher itself. Remember that guy who jumped out of the ambulance last who had his head covered? I always thought that maybe that person was concealing a camera, recording how it all went down, to be finally viewed post bamsday. Ah, wishful thinking. :icon_geek:
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 26, 2012, 09:38:29 AM
Post by: Andrea on October 26, 2012, 09:54:53 AM
Was there a date on the coroner van jump video?
There was no date/time stamp on the video itself but it came out on August 25, 2009 - same date the autopsy photo had on it although it's been argued that the '8' was a '6' (for June) but the 'autopsy' didn't take place on the 25th anyways, it was the next day.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on October 26, 2012, 10:16:55 AM
1- UCLA ranks among the top 5 hospitals in the US and is reasonably near Carolwood house.
2- IMHO, because one of the most irrefutable and first clues we had was coming from Jermaine and Thomé Thomé reporting that Michael had died when was supposed to have been reported by an UCLA doctor and this fact couldn't have happened if Michael had died in Carolwood.
@TS...I have been watching some movies where there was a verdict during a trial and I never found any alleged word on them, so I have arrived to the conclusion that the trial was fake and just to serve a hoax purpose.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on October 26, 2012, 10:39:11 AM
I can't envision Mike waiting in a line to check in bags at any airport (past or present)...and then sitting and waiting for some commercial plane to arrive to take him wherever he needs/wants to go. People at Mike's level of means usually don't...he, most likely, has visited many airports where only a very few number of people even knew he was there. (I have a relative who hasn't seen the inside of an airport in over 10 years, after he bought a private jet, yet travels very extensively). This, of course, doesn't mean that he boarded a plane on June 25th....but the point is that IF he did, the 'risk' factor would be very minimal, not the other way around. If there was fear/risk of exposure, he could just as easily have donned one of his many disguises as he could have IF he went to UCLA....a disguise for the trip from Carolwood (or wherever) to the tarmac, to the short walk from his vehicle, to the steps of a private plane (if this took place at night, then lack of natural light would have provided additional cover). We're talking Mike here....not a 'regular' traveler/passenger...and there was that plane that did take off 'undercover' from LAX that day to places unknown.
At this point, even 3+ years later...there's no way to prove conclusively where he was/went that day. He could have gone to UCLA or he could just as easily (even more so actually) hopped on a plane. Because of that...the lack of 'concrete' proof of anything and these circles that seem to lead us nowhere other than to more assumptions and speculations....I'm kinda confused as to why TS is having us revisit this once again. I'm actually finding it very difficult to go BACK to where we were a year ago and try to now make sense of things that we couldn't/didn't prove then, with no new/additional 'evidence' to take into account. I guess, on some level, it can help 'occupy' us....but based on what TS presented to us in The Signs, I've been pretty 'occupied' lol...as I'm sure others have as well. It's like 'he' gave us the keys to the world....and is now asking us to scurry back into a crawl space. Not impossible to do...and if it will now lead us to concrete answers, then I'm all for it. But, for me, it will take some mental maneuvering to scale back the expansion that 'HE' helped create.
With L.O.V.E. always.
I agree there's no way that MJ would go to the airport like a 'regular' person, he would've always been driven directly to his plane - no customs/check-in/luggage drop-off and retrieval that the general population has to suffer through, lol. But still going on TS's "the fewer the better" scenario, there would still be the 2nd location needed (airport), a pilot and a tarmac official (?) - not to mention the 3rd location on the plane's destination - whether MJ was in a disguise or not.
I like to think that MJ pulled off this hoax in plain sight that day, whether in disguise around the stretcher or on the stretcher itself. Remember that guy who jumped out of the ambulance last who had his head covered? I always thought that maybe that person was concealing a camera, recording how it all went down, to be finally viewed post bamsday. Ah, wishful thinking. :icon_geek:
I always had that in my mind too. During this hoax many scenes have been shot, directed by MJ. The public are the actors, unwittingly acting so that the movie is even more convincing. Everything has a purpose in this hoax, which we can only guess or assUME, but I'm sure we are being taught with L.O.V.E. by MJ. I think that the biggest purpose or goal is to expose and that we should learn to be aware of:
1. the media and how easily we can be fooled by them, or how LAZY some people are to believe that garbage without checking the source
2. the inconsistencies and wrong doings in healths care, like privacy leaks (autopsy report, patient privacy rules), wrong MONEY driven doctors, drug prescriptions and pharmacies etc.
3. the legal justice system and its inconsistencies/failures, injustice, bias and its power.
4. Hollywood and entertainment business: injustice and power driven by MONEY.
and I believe there are much more purposes.
This hoax has been so well prepared and thought out that the subjects/chapters/scenes like Carolwood, bodytransport, UCLA, the trial, Murray and drug prescriptions, funeral, reports and lawsuits about AEG, Klein etc are all serving these purposes; inconsistencies are being exposed. They all are being microscoped, investigated and definitely got media attention. I'm still wondering about TS's "alleged" question. Could it be that it is a huge legal failure that "alleged murderer" and "alleged victim" is read in a verdict during a 'real' trial? A good example of injustice? Maybe it is about to be exposed in this hoax movie. Probably I made some assumptions here..
Post by: wishingstar on October 26, 2012, 11:01:04 AM
I can't envision Mike waiting in a line to check in bags at any airport (past or present)...and then sitting and waiting for some commercial plane to arrive to take him wherever he needs/wants to go. People at Mike's level of means usually don't...he, most likely, has visited many airports where only a very few number of people even knew he was there. (I have a relative who hasn't seen the inside of an airport in over 10 years, after he bought a private jet, yet travels very extensively). This, of course, doesn't mean that he boarded a plane on June 25th....but the point is that IF he did, the 'risk' factor would be very minimal, not the other way around. If there was fear/risk of exposure, he could just as easily have donned one of his many disguises as he could have IF he went to UCLA....a disguise for the trip from Carolwood (or wherever) to the tarmac, to the short walk from his vehicle, to the steps of a private plane (if this took place at night, then lack of natural light would have provided additional cover). We're talking Mike here....not a 'regular' traveler/passenger...and there was that plane that did take off 'undercover' from LAX that day to places unknown.
At this point, even 3+ years later...there's no way to prove conclusively where he was/went that day. He could have gone to UCLA or he could just as easily (even more so actually) hopped on a plane. Because of that...the lack of 'concrete' proof of anything and these circles that seem to lead us nowhere other than to more assumptions and speculations....I'm kinda confused as to why TS is having us revisit this once again. I'm actually finding it very difficult to go BACK to where we were a year ago and try to now make sense of things that we couldn't/didn't prove then, with no new/additional 'evidence' to take into account. I guess, on some level, it can help 'occupy' us....but based on what TS presented to us in The Signs, I've been pretty 'occupied' lol...as I'm sure others have as well. It's like 'he' gave us the keys to the world....and is now asking us to scurry back into a crawl space. Not impossible to do...and if it will now lead us to concrete answers, then I'm all for it. But, for me, it will take some mental maneuvering to scale back the expansion that 'HE' helped create.
With L.O.V.E. always.
I agree there's no way that MJ would go to the airport like a 'regular' person, he would've always been driven directly to his plane - no customs/check-in/luggage drop-off and retrieval that the general population has to suffer through, lol. But still going on TS's "the fewer the better" scenario, there would still be the 2nd location needed (airport), a pilot and a tarmac official (?) - not to mention the 3rd location on the plane's destination - whether MJ was in a disguise or not.
I like to think that MJ pulled off this hoax in plain sight that day, whether in disguise around the stretcher or on the stretcher itself. Remember that guy who jumped out of the ambulance last who had his head covered? I always thought that maybe that person was concealing a camera, recording how it all went down, to be finally viewed post bamsday. Ah, wishful thinking. :icon_geek:
I always had that in my mind too. During this hoax many scenes have been shot, directed by MJ. The public are the actors, unwittingly acting so that the movie is even more convincing. Everything has a purpose in this hoax, which we can only guess or assUME, but I'm sure we are being taught with L.O.V.E. by MJ. I think that the biggest purpose or goal is to expose and that we should learn to be aware of:
1. the media and how easily we can be fooled by them, or how LAZY some people are to believe that garbage without checking the source
2. the inconsistencies and wrong doings in healths care, like privacy leaks (autopsy report, patient privacy rules), wrong MONEY driven doctors, drug prescriptions and pharmacies etc.
3. the legal justice system and its inconsistencies/failures, injustice, bias and its power.
4. Hollywood and entertainment business: injustice and power driven by MONEY.
and I believe there are much more purposes.
This hoax has been so well prepared and thought out that the subjects/chapters/scenes like Carolwood, bodytransport, UCLA, the trial, Murray and drug prescriptions, funeral, reports and lawsuits about AEG, Klein etc are all serving these purposes; inconsistencies are being exposed. They all are being microscoped, investigated and definitely got media attention. I'm still wondering about TS's "alleged" question. Could it be that it is a huge legal failure that "alleged murderer" and "alleged victim" is read in a verdict during a 'real' trial? A good example of injustice? Maybe it is about to be exposed in this hoax movie. Probably I made some assumptions here..
:th_bravo: :th_bravo: :th_bravo:
I love how your minds think.....so many times I have run things in my head, only to get stuck......I love you guys!!!
I always find inspiration with your words......my mind is going a million miles per hour, lol
Hug and blessings......gotta run : )
Love Ya~
Post by: bec on October 26, 2012, 11:06:13 AM
Agreed that bringing a second location and set of players into the hoax is an unnecessary risk. Not to mention a third; the destination.
Why would MJ need to FLY away anyway? Although he does include a song by that title in Bad25... but then in those lyrics he sings "Fly Away, gonna stay".
Isn't it safer to simply squirrel away where ever he is headed to ride out the hoax by car? The fewest additional people are needed to execute this mode of escape vehicle, and they can be people already involved.
It would probably be safest, when trying to stay under the radar, to leave/get away many days later when the hub bub died down... or so many days earlier that no one would find it odd if they saw him when he was supposed to be somewhere else.
So we already have one vehicle carrying something that has a legitimate reason to hide it's contents; the ambulance that went Carrolwood-->UCLA. Then we have another; the helicopter that went UCLA-->morgue. And a third; the coroner van that went top of one parking garage-->bottom of another. All 3 vehicles were carrying something that was supposed to be shielded from view for "legitimate" reasons (privacy).
Why do we need to add an additional vehicle embarking on an additional route shielding something from view for suspicious reasons?
It complicates things which, to me, is a red flag in pondering hypotheticals.
Again, MJ could easily hide in plain sight using a disguise without adding additional locations, sets of persons, or vehicles into the mix, and slip away in any one of those vehicles already being utilized and expected to be seen for legitimate reasons without blowing the whole thing wide open or rousing any suspicion.
Yes, he could use a disguise at an airport as well, but again, why are we bringing an additional location (two of them!) and set of players into the hoax scenario? This is an assumption on top of another assumption (disguise + airport) and an additional complication. We are getting too elaborate here in my opinion, and straying from the concrete facts in order to conjure this hypothesis.
You could add one assumption (disguise) to the accepted chain of events and it provides a perfect solution, without adding anything else.
The staff was asked to leave, so it is deduced that there was something they specifically were not to see coming downstairs on that stretcher... or accompanying it. If it were really MJ on the stretcher (or an MJ dummy or look-a-like), it shouldn't matter so much that they see, it would simply reinforce the hoax. Anyone can pretend to be dead for a few seconds in passing. "Stalker" fan that followed the ambulance says she saw someone on that stretcher, but they were "too short" to be MJ. If it were really MJ on that stretcher (or an MJ dummy or look-a-like), it would reinforce in her mind that which she is already being told.
In going with the theme that actual recalled events are easier to relay later when questioned then fabricated ones, I have to stick with MJ being at UCLA (and Carrolwood) that day. Too many players who are not professional actors are required to speak about it (ER docs, EMTs) later and stick to a story for that story to stray too far from actual events... even if they were brought in on things. Asking these people to "lie" in front of the camera (real OR fake court, no matter) is asking too much... too risky that someone would make a mistake. But if they recall real events, they are more likely to play their parts correctly and without a hitch.
It seems least complicated to me that MJ WAS there and they DID touch/examine him and go through the motions so they could accurately recall these events later, though he was almost certainly NOT on the stretcher when it was transported Carrolwood-->UCLA. That's the "risky" part that TS gets so hot n bothered by. All that "risk" he frets about is surrounding someone thinking he is really dead/dying and discovering that he is not.
If that discovery were that the patient is not MJ, it would be less risky for MJ then discovering that it IS MJ, but he is just fine/not dying. Discovering that it were not MJ would immediately lead the discover-er to deduce that this stretcher/patient were simply a decoy being used for security reasons. Discovering that the patient WAS MJ but he was FINE would blow the whole hoax wide open and kill it from ground zero.
So MJ could be standing right there, in disguise, with a few key people in the know standing by with him, with everyone's attention focused on the stretcher, and be hiding in plain sight, AND be participating for realism in recalled events later, with minimal risk of unauthorized discovery, and no need to include a second or even third location and subsequent set of players, into the hoax.
So, we could add a disguise (one assumption) or we could add a disguise AND an additional location/set of players (two assumptions) or we could add a disguise and TWO additional locations/sets of players (three assumptions) to the facts/chain of events already witnessed to have occurred. The answer seems simple to me.
Post by: BeTheChange on October 26, 2012, 12:23:28 PM
Unless we believe that Mike has not left LA in the last 3+ years (which would be another assumption at this point)...then other locations are involved. I don't see that as a problem in the least, considering Mike was able to visit MANY locations before 'death' where he could 'hide out' and/or only be seen if he wanted to be. None of this, IMO, would require adding a whole bunch more people into the mix....he would just have to have included/used people already working for/with him, who were under confidentiality agreements any way.
Again, not saying he boarded a plane or that he didn't...or that he went to UCLA or that he didn't....it would just be more assumptions and speculation. But, IMO, out of all the possible scenarios, having a live and healthy-looking MJ anywhere near UCLA on June 25th would be THE riskiest move of all to pull after a 20 year long hoax plan. But, that too, is 'technically' an opinion based on several assumptions and is not 'proof' enough to state, as fact, that he wasn't there.
This is tail chasing at its finest.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Andrea on October 26, 2012, 12:42:40 PM
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 26, 2012, 01:09:59 PM
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/378/368/ (http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/378/368/)
Jackson v. Denno - 378 U.S. 368 (1964)
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Syllabus
Case
U.S. Supreme Court
Jackson v. Denno, 378 U.S. 368 (1964)
Jackson v. Denno
No. 62
Argued December 9-10, 1963
Decided June 22, 1964
378 U.S. 368
Syllabus
Petitioner, after robbing a hotel, fatally wounded a policeman and himself received two bullet wounds. Questioned shortly after arrival at a hospital, he admitted the shooting and the robbery. Some time later, after considerable loss of blood and soon after he had been given drugs, he was interrogated and admitted firing the first shot at the policeman. Petitioner was indicted for murder, and both statements were admitted at the trial, at which petitioner's testimony differed in some important respects from the confessions. In accord with New York practice where the voluntariness of a confession is attacked, the trial court submitted that issue, with the others, to the jury. The jury was told to disregard the confession entirely if it was found involuntary, and to determine the guilt or innocence solely from other evidence; or, if it found the confession voluntary, it was to determine its truth or reliability and weigh it accordingly. The jury found petitioner guilty of first-degree murder, the New York Court of Appeals affirmed, and this Court denied certiorari. Petitioner filed a petition for a writ of habeas corpus asserting that the New York procedure for determining voluntariness of a confession was unconstitutional and that his confession was involuntary. The District Court denied the petition and the Court of Appeals affirmed.
Held:
1. Under the New York procedure, the trial judge must make a preliminary determination of the voluntariness of a confession and exclude it if in no circumstances could the confession be deemed voluntary. If the evidence presents a fair question as to its voluntariness, as where certain facts bearing on the issue are in dispute or where reasonable men could differ over the inferences to be drawn from the undisputed facts, the judge must admit the confession and leave to the jury, under proper instructions, the determination of its voluntary character and also of its truthfulness. This procedure does not provide an adequate and reliable determination of the voluntariness of the confession, and does not adequately protect the petitioner's right not to be convicted through the use of a coerced confession, and is therefore violative of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Stein v. New York, 346 U. S. 156, overruled. Pp. 378 U. S. 376-391.
Page 378 U. S. 369
(a) It is a deprivation of due process of law to base a conviction in whole or in part on a coerced confession, regardless of its truth, and even though there may be sufficient other evidence to support the conviction. P. 378 U. S. 376.
(b) A defendant has a constitutional right to a fair hearing and reliable determination of the voluntariness of a confession, not influenced by its truth or falsity. Pp. 378 U. S. 376-377.
(c) It is impossible to tell whether the trial jury found the confession voluntary and relied on it, or involuntary and supposedly ignored it, but for the Court to accept these alternatives is to fail to protect the rights of the accused. Pp. 378 U. S. 379-391.
(d) Under the New York procedure, the evidence given the jury inevitably injects irrelevant and impermissible considerations of truthfulness of the confession into the assessment of voluntariness. Alternatively there is the danger that a confession found to be coerced plays some part in the jury's deliberations on guilt or innocence. Pp. 378 U. S. 386-389.
2. Petitioner is entitled to a state court hearing on the issue of the voluntariness of the confession by a body other than the one trying his guilt or innocence, but that does not necessarily entitle him to a new trial. Pp. 378 U. S. 391-396.
(a) If, at an evidentiary hearing on the coercion issue, it is determined that the confession was voluntary and admissible in evidence, a new trial is unnecessary. P. 378 U. S. 394.
(b) If it is determined at the hearing that the confession was involuntary, a new trial, at which the confession is excluded, is required. P. 378 U. S. 394.
309 F. 2d 573, reversed and remanded.
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Post by: MJonmind on October 26, 2012, 02:34:37 PM
Bec
Quote
Why would MJ need to FLY away anyway? Although he does include a song by that title in Bad25... but then in those lyrics he sings "Fly Away, gonna stay".Funniest things in this hoax, probably deliberate, so good catch.
allegation
n.
1. Something alleged; an assertion: allegations of disloyalty.
2. The act of alleging.
And here’s The 25 Greatest Legal Movies: http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_25_greatest_legal_movies/
None of course have 'alleged' in the verdict (that I could see).
Post by: ellyd on October 26, 2012, 03:15:25 PM
http://www.slideshare.net/jamarch/the-prestige-presentation (http://www.slideshare.net/jamarch/the-prestige-presentation)
Quote
"A magic trick consists of three stages: the pledge, the turn and the prestige.
A "prestige" is the magician's definite punch-line - it is the final part of a trick in which the "magic" has already been performed, and the magician works backwards to restore whatever it is that he has altered (no magic trick is complete without reconnecting a woman who has been sawed in half, for example. )
A good magic trick is secondary to the prestige, because in this final section, the magician reveals his ability to spin a tale beyond his simple performance. Every good magician creates a trick that ends with an impressive prestige.
First, there is the setup, or the "pledge", where the magician shows the audience something that appears ordinary but is probably not, making use of misdirection. Next is the performance, or the "turn", where the magician makes the ordinary act extraordinary. Lastly, there is the "prestige", where the effect of the illusion is produced. There are "twists and turns, where lives hang in the balance and you see something shocking you've never seen before."
[...]
"The Prestige" is told through a fragmented timeline. It is constructed like a post-modern puzzle, framing stories within stories, flashbacks within flashbacks , and presenting us with at least two unreliable narrators - one of whom is the victim in the murder trial that opens the film.
The audience routinely sees the same tricks performed at least twice. [...] To pull off his most famous trick, The New Transported Man, Angier [...] requires his own double. [...] There are other sets of pairs as well. [...] In the character of Tesla the film implies that "magic" is simply science we haven't figured out yet.
Every single scene in the film has a meaning above and beyond the telling of the mainline. Each scene also gives clues to secrets of the film, and the main theme. Who is the protagonist? [...] Who is the Antagonist?
At one point in the film an astute child points out that for the disappearing bird trick to work, something has to be killed."
If we consider an illusion to be part of the hoax, the performer has to be present during performance until final moment of prestige being completely executed (which we seem to be heading at through narrators' guidance and making ends meet again).
This eliminates the "airport take-off before during or after death" since the death was only the starter and not the final part of the illusion.
This does however not mean that the performer himself must be present in the trick if a bird disappears in the public eye on stage only to reappear - with the help of a double bird - all of a sudden in the rear of the room. A performer who disappears in person will not leave this once in a lifetime trick (and triumph) to others and just walk away.
One can only die once. Irreproducible.
Coming back from the dead? Feasible only once. Irreproducible.
Who died? A double, going to UCLA, being "the new transported man" - by ambulance, Sheriff's helicopter and Coroner van (making the transport a crescendo of mystery and taboo with mixed feelings of curiosity and disliking), making believe it was MJ.
Who disappeared? MJ.
Who will be back? The master of surprise and "never seen before".
Not to forget that illusion is only one of the many layers in this masterpiece.
"Two unreliable narrators".
Alleged = pretended = assumed
("Alleged victim" plays a more important role in child abuse trials than in regular criminal trials. We just had the Sandusky case (not) closed.)
Post by: paula-c on October 26, 2012, 03:23:35 PM
The fire alarm was pulled upon the ambulance's arrival at UCLA. Perfect diversion tactic because immediately there were people gathering outside and not knowing what's going on inside. Definitely decreases the chances of the hoax being caught out as it happened.
yes and there is no evidence of what happened in the interior of the house by that !surprise ¡ ¡ videos disappeared
Post by: bec on October 26, 2012, 10:41:11 PM
If we're gonna get 'technical' about assumptions vs. fact(s)...then there's a whole bunch we can 'cut out' from the picture because most of what we've pieced together IS based on assumptions/speculations and/or taking things as 'truth' without concrete evidence. If we're solely going on 'fact'...then the only 'events' that we can be 150% sure happened 'that day' IMO were what we saw played out live...via several different cameras/media (i.e. a variety of non-hoax related sources), like the helicopter scene. But even then, all we can be sure about is that something was loaded into a helicopter and then something was taken out and loaded into a van and brought to the coroners. Anything beyond that is based on assumptions and speculations.
Unless we believe that Mike has not left LA in the last 3+ years (which would be another assumption at this point)...then other locations are involved. I don't see that as a problem in the least, considering Mike was able to visit MANY locations before 'death' where he could 'hide out' and/or only be seen if he wanted to be. None of this, IMO, would require adding a whole bunch more people into the mix....he would just have to have included/used people already working for/with him, who were under confidentiality agreements any way.
Again, not saying he boarded a plane or that he didn't...or that he went to UCLA or that he didn't....it would just be more assumptions and speculation. But, IMO, out of all the possible scenarios, having a live and healthy-looking MJ anywhere near UCLA on June 25th would be THE riskiest move of all to pull after a 20 year long hoax plan. But, that too, is 'technically' an opinion based on several assumptions and is not 'proof' enough to state, as fact, that he wasn't there.
This is tail chasing at its finest.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Yes, those are the extent of our facts: what we saw via multiple media sources. Additional facts are events collaborated by multiple witness statements and/or supported by video/audio from that day. That's why I am stuck on those things. I don't want to stray too far from them when hypothesizing. I'm also keeping in mind TS's advice on good investigation, changing as few things as possible, and also resourcing logic theories such as the Razor theory someone posted about, change as little as possible from what you know and make as few assumptions as possible.
BTC, do you think it was risky for MJ to appear on LKL in disguise a couple months after he was supposed to be dead? You want to talk about unnecessary risks, appearing on Larry King Live as Dave Dave the burn victim helped as a child by MJ seems to be completely unnecessary and a massive risk. I can't think of any reason he needed to do that TV interview in order for the hoax to succeed. The real Dave Dave could have done the interview and said everything MJ needed him to say and extended the same message that MJ did to the public. The only thing missing would have been our private little show and the huge moral boost eventually/firestorm initially it sent through the hoax community.
So my question is, what risk would MJ be taking on unnecessarily by being at UCLA on 6/25/09 in disguise that he didn't take on then? Would he not need to be in disguise no matter where he went on 6/25/09 (or the night before, if you support that theory)? No matter where he went he would risk discovery en route. Not to mention any day since then...
Aircraft is federally controlled. You can't just take off and land somewhere and not record the intentions with the proper agencies. Seems complicated. Not to mention it's an assumption. Jermaine's "slip" hasn't been collaborated at all so it's unsubstantiated. I think Jermaine's "airport" slip was a red herring. Besides, MJ Air comes at the end of TII, not the beginning :icon_geek:.
The director doesn't give orders about what he wants to see and then goes and plays golf. No, he sticks around and makes sure it's done properly. Of course he does. Lead actors are sometimes also directors, and very successful ones at that.
I do not see a good argument explaining why MJ was not in the ambulance on 6/25/09. He was seen arriving at Carrolwood the night of 6/24/09. He left Carrolwood and went somewhere else. Several reports indicate he went to UCLA via the ambulance that was at Carrolwood, left, and arrived at UCLA on 6/25/09. Short of any evidence to the contrary, because this is where you would have to make your first assumption, I pretty much have to stick with this description of events in order to move forward.
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 27, 2012, 12:58:30 AM
Anyway MJ would definitely need to be back in L.A in September to disguise himself as Dave Dave on LKL. But this could be thought of as another risk. Not really a high risk because MJ would of worn a disguise, but there is still a little room for error to make the trip out of L.A, then back again and I'm assuming MJ wouldn't even want a little room for error for anything if he could help it.
But also on the subject of Dave Dave; MJ disguising himself as DD in my opinion is very high risk, so...
Post by: ellyd on October 27, 2012, 02:38:29 AM
Post by: MJonmind on October 27, 2012, 05:33:09 AM
I still think Jermaine's slip-up of the airplane was a decoy to takes us away from solving the mystery. ARG manipulations! :affraid: Or like I suggested when we were doing the levels, that MJ hopped on the plane, did a circle over the airport and came back down--just kidding!
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 27, 2012, 07:00:47 AM
I'm sure we could make a lo-o-ng list of all the things that happened on 'death' day and afterwards that held high risk, probably in the hundreds. (Maybe an interesting excercise!) Yet the 'Director' chose them to be part of the scenario. A movie Thriller 2, was one of the list of purposes of the hoax wasn't it? MJ is weaving a complex story, with twists and turns, and hints or clues to fool the audience to thinking things are going to go one way, and then - surprise - it goes a totally unexpected way. That's what makes an exciting story for our imaginations to be stimulated. The truly great masters in history, have never cared about risk, but forged ahead, blazing trails. MJ is all about magic, and thrill, and love!
I still think Jermaine's slip-up of the airplane was a decoy to takes us away from solving the mystery. ARG manipulations! :affraid: Or like I suggested when we were doing the levels, that MJ hopped on the plane, did a circle over the airport and came back down--just kidding!
Me too. JJ's slip up was there as a decoy, he put it in our minds and we assumed MJ went to the airport.
I agree (in bold), but if we look at it like this;
MJ wanted June 25th to be perfect, he wanted the world to think that he really died. You cannot continue with a hoax when everyone knows your alive, it would be like a bad kept secret. So in my opinion MJ made sure June 25th 2009 went perfectly without any slip ups (so nothing high risk), maybe we just assumed he went to UCLA because of the media and large crowd. Then after everyone thought he died then he could have some fun with everyone and direct it into Thriller 2.
June 25th 2009 was just supposed to be something tame then after that he could make it WILD. If you convince/fool someone so well, like in this case MJ convinced people he died, then people would have NO REASON to question his death. There was nothing really suspicious about June 25th 2009 off the bat or on the surface. So people are likely to stick with that and not realize anything else, they are lost in a cloud of emotion and shock (blinded).
Like TS said, MJ only got one chance at this...one slip up and his hoax might have been over.
Post by: BeTheChange on October 27, 2012, 07:28:55 AM
But after being here for 3+ years...and after all the rigorous training exercises lol...it's difficult for me to say that I'm 100% sure of much that happened 'that day' because 'in a court of law' a lot of the 'evidence' we have would be considered circumstantial and/or be torn to shreds. We are basing some 'pieces' on video footage we saw that was presented to us as having been shot 'that day'. Yet, we know (or at least have a REAL good inkling) that the person who presented the footage has provided 'fake'/photoshopped/doctored material in the past. We are basing some 'pieces' on witness testimony...some of which we heard stated under oath. Yet, we know that the trial wasn't real and/or couldn't have been real if Mike is alive. Even if our starting point is that some of it was real (i.e. some witnesses didn't know it was 'fake' and were, therefore, telling the truth under oath)...we STILL don't know which testimony to take as 'fact' because we don't know who's who in this whole thing. Not to mention that there were many discrepancies in the testimonies....of those in trial and also of those who were supposedly bystanders at Carolwood that didn't get called as witnesses.
It is human nature to 'fill in' the gaps of any story with our own ideas...our brains need to do that to make sense of things and to allow the story to move along in our own minds. And we have done just that throughout this whole thing....filled in as best we could with what we were given to play with. Mike may very well have been at Carolwood 'that day', like we all pretty much thought a year ago during Level 7, and he may very well have gone to UCLA in an ambulance. But, we are basing that on footage from a known 'faker', footage that was neither date or time stamped, conflicting eyewitness accounts, testimony that was chalk full of discrepancies and testimony from people who we can't be sure were telling the truth or following script...because we still don't know how much of that trial was 'real' and how much was 'fake'.
As for level of 'risk' involved for Mike showing up anywhere either on June 25th or after....it is relative to the circumstances surrounding the 'appearance'. If he was wearing a disguise, the level of risk would be lower obviously than if he appeared as himself. If the location where he appeared was somehow contained and/or controlled...i.e. few, if any, people not 'in the know' were allowed access or close proximity, then the level of risk is also lower than if he appeared in a throng of people or in a situation where he (or those working for/helping him) were not in control or not able to contain. Do I think the LKL appearance was risky? Well, going on the assumption that it was Mike (and I do believe it was)...of course it was risky. Any and ALL possible 'appearances' on June 25th or after would carry a level of risk. When compared to appearing at a major hospital on 'death' day, though....I would say that it carried much less risk relative to the circumstances surrounding it (i.e. appearing in full disguise as a known individual, on a closed/contained set, being interviewed by someone who's possibly 'in the know'---although that is an assumption lol---months after the world believes him to be dead, IMO lowers the level of risk significantly).
Quote
Aircraft is federally controlled. You can't just take off and land somewhere and not record the intentions with the proper agencies.
That's a given. But try to find out who took off on June 25th from LAX on that documented 'mysterious' flight and where they traveled to...and see what you come up with. Just because something is recorded with the proper agencies (maybe FBI?), doesn't mean it can't remain hidden/undercover...in fact, it may not be difficult/complicated at all if you have 'friends' in all the right places.
All I'm saying in this whole ramble lol...is that even with ALL the piecing together that we've done over the years...even with ALL the 'evidence' we had/found to 'fill in' the gaps and come up with a 'reasonable' picture of what happened 'that day' (or any day really lol)...the ONLY thing I would bet the farm on (at this point), is that Mike did not die on June 25th. Anything beyond that, IMO, is a gamble.
I'm not even sure that the levels (especially Level 7) were ever meant to lead us to answers....perhaps they were meant to fine-tune our questions/methods.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on October 27, 2012, 11:00:43 AM
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 27, 2012, 11:42:41 AM
Post by: bec on October 27, 2012, 11:49:37 AM
In a good disguise, MJ would look like any other random face in the crowd. There is no way you can argue that a disguise would bring more attention then MJ's regular self out n about. Just no way unless you're imagining him dressing as the Pink Panther. Even then.
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 27, 2012, 11:54:32 AM
Post by: bec on October 27, 2012, 12:16:47 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on October 27, 2012, 12:19:57 PM
But after being here for 3+ years...and after all the rigorous training exercises lol...it's difficult for me to say that I'm 100% sure of much that happened 'that day'[...]^^ Which is EXACTLY why I quit a long time ago to try and figure it out...
I dedicated all my attention and my research to the proof and clues of the hoax in general, of the reasons and purpose of the hoax, of the return, of the family confirmations, and of all the similarities and parallels that came to light in the mean time (be them to connected to Elvis, 2PAC, and/or other artists ..).
But I quit trying to figure out "that DAY". I'm just waiting impatiently for Michael's movie and/or explanations.
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 27, 2012, 12:27:03 PM
Well then back it up!
Let me clear something here. I have my own mind and though you moderate this board, you do not moderate my way of thinking. There’s nothing to “back up”. I just wish you would back off of me. I don’t know the origin of your discern for my posts, but it is becoming a nuisance, so to speak.
Post by: bec on October 27, 2012, 08:41:59 PM
I have no idea what you mean by:
Quote
I don’t know the origin of your discern for my posts
what have I said to you in the past that would make you say this here? PM me if you would prefer but please explain because I'm very confused.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on October 27, 2012, 08:53:26 PM
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 27, 2012, 09:11:33 PM
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 27, 2012, 09:15:20 PM
Post by: paula-c on October 27, 2012, 09:36:18 PM
This is a picture taken by Ben Evensted on the 25th June 2009...from a different angle...It clearly shows "something" on the stretcher, and someone shirtless...So I beleive we concluded that "something was transported that day, with Paramedics from #71, and MJ's bodyguards...
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/ambo.jpg)
Someone who died, or someone who was alive and did not need any medication for what in the photo there is no IV
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ivcomp10.jpg)
Someone was moved in that ambulance ... as someone said a time ago, to save appearances, but who or what?
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on October 27, 2012, 11:14:28 PM
Explain what you mean by I always post “plausible” theories. @katy
I just meant that when I read your opinion or belief about something, it's always something that makes sense and something I would agree with. It's a complement.. :icon_razz:
Post by: voiceforthesilent on October 27, 2012, 11:57:48 PM
As far as there being someone on the stretcher, I believe that someone had to go to UCLA that day in order for it to be believable. If MJ was not shown it probably wouldn't have gotten the huge attention that it did because many would have thought he had faked his death to get out of going on tour. This way it more or less proved to the world's unsuspecting that MJ had d**d. An illusion isn't believable unless you see (or not) the object of illusion with your own eyes.
Think about the scene at UCLA - there were news helicopters and ground crews and tons of "eyewitnesses" and then there is the family and friends rushing in. There was the drama of the ambulance backing out very slowly and driving away without rushing. There was the crazy interview by Brian Oxman. None of that would have happened if we weren't given the hospital scene. Was it MJ? I believe it was - just like it's Copperfield and Angel in their acts of illusion. How did he escape? I believe he left by ground when everyone was watching the helicopter take his "supposed" corpse to the morgue. I remember someone finding an article where a person at the hospital saw MJ leave by car - does anyone remember that story? I don't remember at what point they said he left but I thought it was interesting all the same.
Blessings
Post by: MJonmind on October 28, 2012, 04:19:56 AM
Quote
Think about the scene at UCLA - there were news helicopters and ground crews and tons of "eyewitnesses" and then there is the family and friends rushing in. There was the drama of the ambulance backing out very slowly and driving away without rushing. There was the crazy interview by Brian Oxman. None of that would have happened if we weren't given the hospital scene. Was it MJ? I believe it was - just like it's Copperfield and Angel in their acts of illusion. How did he escape? I believe he left by ground when everyone was watching the helicopter take his "supposed" corpse to the morgue. I remember someone finding an article where a person at the hospital saw MJ leave by car - does anyone remember that story? I don't remember at what point they said he left but I thought it was interesting all the same.I've looked hard but can't find those series of pics of several vehicles in a back lot off of UCLA, with what appears to be possibly MJ changing clothes and climbing into a vehicle.
Paula, you're so good at finding pics from the early days. :bowdown: Do you remember those ones?
Post by: Adi on October 28, 2012, 04:35:37 AM
VoiceQuoteThink about the scene at UCLA - there were news helicopters and ground crews and tons of "eyewitnesses" and then there is the family and friends rushing in. There was the drama of the ambulance backing out very slowly and driving away without rushing. There was the crazy interview by Brian Oxman. None of that would have happened if we weren't given the hospital scene. Was it MJ? I believe it was - just like it's Copperfield and Angel in their acts of illusion. How did he escape? I believe he left by ground when everyone was watching the helicopter take his "supposed" corpse to the morgue. I remember someone finding an article where a person at the hospital saw MJ leave by car - does anyone remember that story? I don't remember at what point they said he left but I thought it was interesting all the same.I've looked hard but can't find those series of pics of several vehicles in a back lot off of UCLA, with what appears to be possibly MJ changing clothes and climbing into a vehicle.
Paula, you're so good at finding pics from the early days. :bowdown: Do you remember those ones?
I remember something about these pics too......but I wouldn't have a clue where to find them.
Post by: diggyon on October 28, 2012, 06:28:18 AM
Post by: ellyd on October 28, 2012, 06:53:04 AM
I've looked hard but can't find those series of pics of several vehicles in a back lot off of UCLA, with what appears to be possibly MJ changing clothes and climbing into a vehicle.
Paula, you're so good at finding pics from the early days. :bowdown: Do you remember those ones?
I remember something about these pics too......but I wouldn't have a clue where to find them.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=BWAUnjTt8D8[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=BWAUnjTt8D8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=BWAUnjTt8D8)
Post by: suspicious mind on October 28, 2012, 11:17:02 AM
just thinking about it how did miko get permission to do his interview there and what was going on at the time? remember all the activity in the kitchen / dining area. :-[ or did i just make that up ? :-\
Post by: hesouttamylife on October 28, 2012, 11:20:57 AM
Explain what you mean by I always post “plausible” theories. @katy
I just meant that when I read your opinion or belief about something, it's always something that makes sense and something I would agree with. It's a complement.. :icon_razz:
Thanks Katy. :bearhug:
I really try hard not to step on anyone’s toes & if I’m not in agreement with something, I at least try to see it from that standpoint & not dismiss it as irrelevant or wrong. Not all minds think alike. If they did there would be no need for this forum to have continued beyond day one. I was of the belief that one of the lessons we were set to learn here was to live your own truth. That’s what I will always do.
Post by: mindseye on October 28, 2012, 01:01:14 PM
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/m.jpg)
Not sure which movie TS is suggesting with the 'alleged', but I just remembered that Murray's verdict was read at 1:17 ... on 11/7/11.
... adds up to nine. :suspect:
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on October 28, 2012, 09:32:37 PM
Post by: voiceforthesilent on October 28, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
Mindseye - I thought the same as you for a long time but there is another angle where it looks different, like he's just grabbing his coat or something. I wasn't so sure after that.
I guess that's the thing - are all of the pictures we're seeing from the same day or from multiple days? That may explain why some of these pictures and events don't add up. Also a great suggestion that some of these "witnesses" may be actors planted there to get the ball rolling.
Blessings
Post by: voiceforthesilent on October 28, 2012, 09:42:49 PM
I always thought this was Michael getting out of the ambulance.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/m.jpg)
Not sure which movie TS is suggesting with the 'alleged', but I just remembered that Murray's verdict was read at 1:17 ... on 11/7/11.
... adds up to nine. :suspect:
Michael Jackson’s This Is It Makes Its World Broadcast Premiere On Monday, November 7
http://www.artistdirect.com/entertainment-news/article/michael-jackson-s-this-is-it-makes-its-world-broadcast-premiere-on-monday-november-7/02XsbXP7HPgLv
:affraid:
Post by: Andrea on October 28, 2012, 10:10:53 PM
I always thought this was Michael getting out of the ambulance.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/m.jpg)
Not sure which movie TS is suggesting with the 'alleged', but I just remembered that Murray's verdict was read at 1:17 ... on 11/7/11.
... adds up to nine. :suspect:
Michael Jackson’s This Is It Makes Its World Broadcast Premiere On Monday, November 7
http://www.artistdirect.com/entertainment-news/article/michael-jackson-s-this-is-it-makes-its-world-broadcast-premiere-on-monday-november-7/02XsbXP7HPgLv
:affraid:
:affraid: is right! That article was published 4 days before the "verdict" was read...before anyone knew how long the jury would be in "deliberation". Yep, This Is It alright.
Post by: use_your_illusion on October 28, 2012, 10:53:19 PM
@BeTheChange No no no.. it's just a random date with no significance (http://www.abandonia.com/vbullet/images/smilies/generic/whistling) :icon_lol:
:icon_lol: :icon_lol: Yeah sure it is :icon_e_wink: :icon_geek: Nothing to see here Michael.
Post by: MJonmind on October 28, 2012, 11:42:49 PM
Ellyd, thanks for finding the video with the pics. I do remember though that there were some particular shots with a mysterious person behind the SUV’s, that is not shown in that video. So when the following scene happened we don't know exactly, but it was all on June 25.I've looked hard but can't find those series of pics of several vehicles in a back lot off of UCLA, with what appears to be possibly MJ changing clothes and climbing into a vehicle.
Paula, you're so good at finding pics from the early days. :bowdown: Do you remember those ones?
I remember something about these pics too......but I wouldn't have a clue where to find them.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=BWAUnjTt8D8[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=BWAUnjTt8D8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=BWAUnjTt8D8)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMpvJI33Vn8[/youtube]
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on October 29, 2012, 12:09:08 AM
:suspect: :animal0017: :judge-smiley: :over-react-smiley: :computer-losy-smiley: :icon_albino:
grumble...lol///i'mlosingmymindlmfaoffffff....
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCfQRLWo6vA[/youtube]
Post by: emulik on October 29, 2012, 01:40:23 AM
Post by: ellyd on October 29, 2012, 03:25:54 AM
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/BG2b.jpg)
I think the shots are all shown in the video. I don't remember anymore where we discussed the video.
There's a thread at .net if you want to review. It is called "Possible photo evidence? UPDATED 10/31/10"
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7143&start=220 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7143&start=220)
Credits go to Christabelle.
Post by: ashprak247 on October 29, 2012, 04:09:15 AM
“@MichaelBearden: Opened 3 years ago today! M~ #restinpradise #miss #friend #icon #kingofpop #greatest #legend #legacy #love # http://t.co/r1VQulFj”
Rest in paradise!!! OMG that's a massive clue surely.
Post by: MJonmind on October 29, 2012, 05:08:26 AM
MJonmind, You mean this one and others, right?:th_bravo: Yep that whole set of pics are them!! Thanks! There did seem to be something 'else' going on hoax-wise, and that 'guy' walking away in front.
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/BG2b.jpg)
I think the shots are all shown in the video. I don't remember anymore where we discussed the video.
There's a thread at .net if you want to review. It is called "Possible photo evidence? UPDATED 10/31/10"
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7143&start=220 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7143&start=220)
Credits go to Christabelle.
Post by: MJonmind on October 29, 2012, 04:06:03 PM
Well, after about a year I’m “back”—no, that does NOT have a double meaning, lol.I'm getting pumped for Nov 30!
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
:TongueOutSmiley:
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
Post by: paula-c on October 30, 2012, 02:28:11 PM
MJonmind, You mean this one and others, right?:th_bravo: Yep that whole set of pics are them!! Thanks! There did seem to be something 'else' going on hoax-wise, and that 'guy' walking away in front.
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/BG2b.jpg)
I think the shots are all shown in the video. I don't remember anymore where we discussed the video.
There's a thread at .net if you want to review. It is called "Possible photo evidence? UPDATED 10/31/10"
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7143&start=220 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7143&start=220)
Credits go to Christabelle.
Interesting photos of those days
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/Coatlength1.jpg)
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/Coatlength2.jpg)
Post by: MJonmind on October 31, 2012, 03:36:35 AM
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on October 31, 2012, 10:21:21 AM
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/Coatlength2.jpg)
Post by: bec on October 31, 2012, 10:36:00 AM
Are we speculating that's MJ in the parking lot?
If I am going to face tough opposition saying it's too risky for him to hitch a ride from Carrolwood in an ambulance and go INTO UCLA on 6/25/09, how can we then turn around with a straight face and speculate that he's walking around OUTSIDE UCLA that day in the parking lot?
And why would this be necessary?
This doesn't seem very plausible to me.
Post by: MJonmind on October 31, 2012, 02:58:57 PM
Wait.Only from TS though...
Are we speculating that's MJ in the parking lot?
If I am going to face tough opposition saying it's too risky for him to hitch a ride from Carrolwood in an ambulance and go INTO UCLA on 6/25/09, how can we then turn around with a straight face and speculate that he's walking around OUTSIDE UCLA that day in the parking lot?
And why would this be necessary?
This doesn't seem very plausible to me.
Post by: paula-c on October 31, 2012, 03:15:16 PM
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/Coatlength1.jpg)
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on October 31, 2012, 04:51:20 PM
Post by: bec on October 31, 2012, 11:31:16 PM
Wait.Only from TS though...
Are we speculating that's MJ in the parking lot?
If I am going to face tough opposition saying it's too risky for him to hitch a ride from Carrolwood in an ambulance and go INTO UCLA on 6/25/09, how can we then turn around with a straight face and speculate that he's walking around OUTSIDE UCLA that day in the parking lot?
And why would this be necessary?
This doesn't seem very plausible to me.
Nah, there's others that support his theory.
Besides, there's the question of; for what gain? What's the motive driving MJ to theoretically change clothes in the public parking lot of UCLA? Why couldn't he change clothes somewhere more private considering he's supposed to be inside the ER @the time dead or dying. Once he's in the hospital, he could leave via the helicopter, via under cover vehicle pick up, through the tunnels, shoot-- even in the bottom of a laundry basket like the old movies... or walk out the back door and change clothes in the parking lot with a bunch of his body guards?
Post by: MJonmind on November 01, 2012, 05:00:39 AM
Quote
Just thinking out loud here.......if the Dr M trial/court was real and was being used for a sting operation then does the use of "alleged victim" and "alleged date" cover them? IDK......So I would say in answer to TS question, that yes “alleged” covers them, or cancels out what was said in the verdict of 'guilty'.
So would that mean that if there really exists a Dr. Murray, that he really wasn’t in jail because his conviction was cancelled/nullified? And the jury was flushed down the toilet for calling him guilty. Jury on trial.
So after Bam, those in the know, say Murray didn’t actually spend any time behind bars. Have you guys noticed the many reality shows lately of young celebrity stars being punked? Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus and others. Some of the scenarios are getting pretty elaborate.
TS on Nov 28,11
Quote
So now I have given two strong points for MJ not going to the hospital. #1 It would be an unnecessary risk of MJ being bumped off, when the world thinks he’s already dead (even if this was a low risk, it was still a risk—and an unnecessary risk, at that). #2 Jermaine’s “airport” clue, plus the very early hoax reports, point to MJ going to the airport instead of the hospital. And I still have three more strong points on this, yet to come (total of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital)…So there’s a reason #5 to find apparently. I have no clue, but I’m just giving a kind of crazy possibility. I’m sure it’s not the one TS has in mind. Here's 'Elvis' again, explaining how his 'death' details took place at 2:09:09.
Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did. So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax. If MJ really died, this makes no sense… Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.
My fourth point, on MJ not going to the hospital, is the testimony of Sharon Sidney. She is one of the “stalker” fans, who was at Carolwood day and night; and she was there when the ambulance went to UCLA. Ben talks about her, and you can even see a still shot of her face {see 1:15,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44; compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBwcjfRkht0}... “She says, there were strange cars at Michael Jackson's mansion on the night of June 24th. She felt that something covert was taking place. ... She tells of how, at the hospital, she spoke with paramedic Blount, and how they both agreed that the person that was wheeled into the hospital was not Michael Jackson. Sharon is adamant that the patient wheeled into the emergency room was much shorter than Michael. She was very upset that paramedic Blount told a completely different story when he testified for the prosecution and detailed how he and his partner handled Michael's resuscitation efforts at Carolwood.”
Quote
The plan was for a DEA helicopter to pick me up. I was going to fly to Argentina, until things blew over. Then on to Kalamazo, Michigan. But the helicopter saw a television crew outside the gate and left. So I shimmied down the side of the house and walked into the pool house…Okay so maybe Elvis’ original plan was to fly out of there, but they went with plan B—waiting it out in the house till things blew over. Did MJ similarly have the at least stated plans to fly out (like Jermaine said) but actually stayed hidden either in that house or an insider’s place. Or did MJ perfect what went wrong for Elvis and actually fly outta town. Although, I remember from early days someone had possibly taken a pic of someone looking like MJ at Tito’s house in the window (anyone remember?), and reports said shortly after the “death” that the Encino property was being guarded all around like Fort Knox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rYu-P92ILDE
Just before ‘Elvis’ says the above he says his ‘death’ would be like:
Quote
Master comics #110, 'Captain Marvel Jr. and the Hidden Death', where Captain Marvel Jr. faked his own death to deceive his own enemies. Then he defeated them and came back as a hero. That was my way out.http://www.comics.org/issue/7949/cover/4/ I can't seem to find details on the comic story to see if CMJ flew out of his 'death' scene, if someone can find that, thanks. But I did find this interesting:
Captain Marvel Jr. from Wiki:
Quote
Captain Marvel Jr.'s alter-ego is Freddy Freeman, a crippled newsboy saved by Captain Marvel from the villainous Captain Nazi. Junior derives his powers from Captain Marvel himself, while the other Marvels derive their powers from the wizard Shazam. And lots more interesting details…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Marvel_Jr.
'Power of Shazam!' Remember Front’s post?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,5167.msg352400.html#msg352400
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1176/souzam.png)
And of course MJ loved Marvel comics and wanted to buy it…
I know much of this has been discussed before, but maybe it can help for brainstorming...
Post by: ellyd on November 01, 2012, 09:15:35 AM
TS on Nov 28,11
Quote
So now I have given two strong points for MJ not going to the hospital. #1 It would be an unnecessary risk of MJ being bumped off, when the world thinks he’s already dead (even if this was a low risk, it was still a risk—and an unnecessary risk, at that). #2 Jermaine’s “airport” clue, plus the very early hoax reports, point to MJ going to the airport instead of the hospital. And I still have three more strong points on this, yet to come (total of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital)…
Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did. So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax. If MJ really died, this makes no sense… Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.
My fourth point, on MJ not going to the hospital, is the testimony of Sharon Sidney. She is one of the “stalker” fans, who was at Carolwood day and night; and she was there when the ambulance went to UCLA. Ben talks about her, and you can even see a still shot of her face {see 1:15,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44; compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBwcjfRkht0}... “She says, there were strange cars at Michael Jackson's mansion on the night of June 24th. She felt that something covert was taking place. ... She tells of how, at the hospital, she spoke with paramedic Blount, and how they both agreed that the person that was wheeled into the hospital was not Michael Jackson. Sharon is adamant that the patient wheeled into the emergency room was much shorter than Michael. She was very upset that paramedic Blount told a completely different story when he testified for the prosecution and detailed how he and his partner handled Michael's resuscitation efforts at Carolwood.”
#1
Unnecessary risk.
"Risk is the potential that a chosen action or activity (including the choice of inaction) will lead to a loss (an undesirable outcome)."
Undesirable outcomes could be:
a) MJ discovered as not being dead.
b) MJ discovered as not being the body on the stretcher.
Risk a) is much less important than b) since the media were jumping on subject a) anyway (AP press note about "UCLA raising the dead".
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31686168/ns/health-heart_health/t/jacksons-hospital-known-raising-dead/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31686168/ns/health-heart_health/t/jacksons-hospital-known-raising-dead/)
What would have happened if the "undead" would have been found? Plans would not have worked out as prepared.
b) The discrepancy between "as if" and "is" could be detected at every second with or without MJ being at the hospital - simply by looking closely and checking for teeth, DNA etc. Providing hair samples etc from the living for the dead could have even helped the case become more realistic - except when responsible doctors were on a payroll anyway and samples were already in the hospital (from another day).
#2
Jermaine's "airport" thought spoken out.
Usually people go more often to an airport than to a hospital. It is not uncommon to think of what a person usually does when leaving a place.
Red herring to produce more smokescreen.
Why would MJ have had a need to leave via airlift?
Because it's getting out fast? What for?
Question is whether there was a need to get away.
Second question: why get away FAST.
It is much safer to go by car - if needed at all.
The "dead body on stretcher" photo was taken on a stretcher model which was out of operation at UCLA since 2003.
If all major footprints were prepared since years - why would there be a need to produce a "beam-me-up-and-outta-here-as-fast-as-possible"? Don't think so. No underestimating MJ in this detail.
#3
Staff having to leave the house before the body was brought down.
This is only an indication that they were not supposed to see the body but not an indicator that MJ did not go to the hospital.
"Stairs down" and "go to UCLA" = two different matters.
#4
So
1) Blount was in and talked to a stalker fan at the hospital
2) Blount was not in and talked to a stalker fan at the hospital.
I don't buy either one.
HIPAA.
In addition, the EMTs were under surveillance and training on what to do and what not to do - especially that day they were reportedly not even authorized to place calls to their families from their cellphones.
#5
MJ could have been at the hospital - in disguise - this wouldn't have been any risk at all.
The director does not have to be present at scene if
- tasks are 100% assigned to a vice-director
- tasks don't need any supervision
- tasks will be executed as foreseen anyway
- he has no live influence on what happens in case the script is not being followed.
Given MJ had everything planned since a long time, given he knew well what usually (and in special terms at UCLA) happens in hospitals, emergency rooms and with dying patients, he could have prevented the need of his presence as MJ in the hospital.
But could he have been present at the hospital giving a different persona, protected by the agencies involved?
Post by: mjselfsweet on November 01, 2012, 12:37:59 PM
Wait.Only from TS though...
Are we speculating that's MJ in the parking lot?
If I am going to face tough opposition saying it's too risky for him to hitch a ride from Carrolwood in an ambulance and go INTO UCLA on 6/25/09, how can we then turn around with a straight face and speculate that he's walking around OUTSIDE UCLA that day in the parking lot?
And why would this be necessary?
This doesn't seem very plausible to me.
Nah, there's others that support his theory.
Besides, there's the question of; for what gain? What's the motive driving MJ to theoretically change clothes in the public parking lot of UCLA? Why couldn't he change clothes somewhere more private considering he's supposed to be inside the ER @the time dead or dying. Once he's in the hospital, he could leave via the helicopter, via under cover vehicle pick up, through the tunnels, shoot-- even in the bottom of a laundry basket like the old movies... or walk out the back door and change clothes in the parking lot with a bunch of his body guards?
I have to agree, he would not go through all the scenes of a hoax, and then go out publicly and changes clothes behind the SUVs ESPECIALLY, knowing, that tons of fans, paparazzi and cameras were there..no reason for that.
Post by: paula-c on November 01, 2012, 08:46:57 PM
MJonmind, You mean this one and others, right?:th_bravo: Yep that whole set of pics are them!! Thanks! There did seem to be something 'else' going on hoax-wise, and that 'guy' walking away in front.
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/BG2b.jpg)
I think the shots are all shown in the video. I don't remember anymore where we discussed the video.
There's a thread at .net if you want to review. It is called "Possible photo evidence? UPDATED 10/31/10"
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7143&start=220 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7143&start=220)
Credits go to Christabelle.
Interesting photos of those days
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/Coatlength1.jpg)
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/Coatlength2.jpg)
These photos were leaked to create controversy, who took it had a good angle and the photo will short opportunely to not see who is the person with the white coat, as we know if those photos specifically are of day JUNE 25?
Post by: paula-c on November 01, 2012, 08:51:58 PM
Post by: MJonmind on November 01, 2012, 10:51:11 PM
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/uclamjmayb.jpg)
:screaming-7365:
Paula, so you think these photos were taken another day and given to fans for decoys for June 25? Do you then think MJ went to the airport on the 25th?
Post by: diggyon on November 02, 2012, 03:59:41 AM
Paula, so it's not settled? :icon_lol:
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/uclamjmayb.jpg)
:screaming-7365:
Paula, so you think these photos were taken another day and given to fans for decoys for June 25? Do you then think MJ went to the airport on the 25th?
Somehow I think that some photos were taken prior June 25th.
Post by: suspicious mind on November 02, 2012, 08:14:04 AM
Post by: paula-c on November 02, 2012, 10:19:20 AM
Paula, so it's not settled? :icon_lol:
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/uclamjmayb.jpg)
:screaming-7365:
Paula, so you think these photos were taken another day and given to fans for decoys for June 25? Do you then think MJ went to the airport on the 25th?
… ..I don't know! :Pulling_hair: :icon_lol:
Post by: paula-c on November 02, 2012, 10:29:07 AM
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/Coatlength2.jpg)
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/whoare10.jpg)
Post by: MJonmind on November 03, 2012, 01:25:36 AM
Post by: bec on November 03, 2012, 01:32:14 AM
And the autopsy photo actually says 6/25 the glare just blurred the lines.
Post by: ellyd on November 03, 2012, 04:08:26 AM
Garage in the "making of" and "leaked video" is the same.
However the video was made up for a purpose and leaked that day for a reason.
Maybe it was one of the many sting rays we have seen to prove how gullible folks are. Even hoaxers.
Post by: MJonmind on November 03, 2012, 05:21:25 AM
Meanwhile....
(http://mob276.photobucket.com/albums/kk34/stingrays01/Misc%20Picks%20and%20Avatars/MichaelJacksonEatingPopcorn.gif)
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 03, 2012, 11:11:08 AM
MJonmind, the RTL video was made up.How can you be so sure that the vid was made up? BTW I don't think that man was Michael he looked shorter.
Garage in the "making of" and "leaked video" is the same.
However the video was made up for a purpose and leaked that day for a reason.
Maybe it was one of the many sting rays we have seen to prove how gullible folks are. Even hoaxers.
Post by: ellyd on November 03, 2012, 01:30:18 PM
A "made believe" Mercure hotel garage in Germany.
They manipulated some details in the garage, not only on the van, though.
Everything else added (or blurred) in their studios.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 03, 2012, 02:26:51 PM
MJonmind, the RTL video was made up.
Garage in the "making of" and "leaked video" is the same.
However the video was made up for a purpose and leaked that day for a reason.
Maybe it was one of the many sting rays we have seen to prove how gullible folks are. Even hoaxers.
Good point. Although the 'van video' seemed to be an experiment, according to this article http://pulse2.com/2009/09/02/german-tv-company-rtl-created-michael-jackson-hoax-video/, it resulted in confusion, suspicion and above all media/web attention, which could fit the hoax time line and purpose to get more beLIEvers, or simply to create curiosity and interest in the hoax. It could have been MJ, I am not sure about that, but may be all will be explained in the hoax movie..who knows :icon_e_wink:
Post by: Jos on November 03, 2012, 05:21:02 PM
Post by: shorty on November 04, 2012, 04:23:29 AM
In the Article from everlastinglove_MJ they say, that was a Hoax Video to show how easy it is
to manipulate people, it must be a reason for that. For me, this Day was the Day to wake up.
This was the time, to stop my tears from day one, to go into me and hear of my heart.
Hoax Video = Hoax Death= thank you MJ
I`m awake
love
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 04, 2012, 07:48:06 AM
Re: van footage: Considering RTL is shopped onto the back of bad25, I think its MJ. Although I have always believed this to be MJ and IN FACT this footage was my initial bait into my personal hoax rabbit hole journey. I think it was filmed prior to 25/6 but I think def MJ and that Bad 25 was a confirmation of the theory.
Re this other photo. I need to keep looking at this...
Pic where he is walking out of the frame to the left, the jacket seems trenchcoat-ish... a) not typical MJ coat, but b) more of a woman's coat / figure (sinched at the waste). Also is that black fleck above the coat a part of his (supposed) hair, or is that a tree shaddow on the guard behind him.
Those shoes.... only one person I know who wears those shoes..... (no wait, thats untrue too.... decoys wear those shoes)
Thinking out loud and obviously still don't know what it 'is' that I think...
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 04, 2012, 12:50:14 PM
Post by: Loveunited on November 04, 2012, 03:53:29 PM
That man with the white or gray suit is not the same as it was with Mrs. Katherine? :confused:
(http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/Christabelle777/Bodyguards%206-25-09/Coatlength2.jpg)
I see the man with Mrs Katherine as much bulkier than the person in white in the other photo...... particularly in the legs
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/whoare10.jpg)
Post by: MissG on November 04, 2012, 04:05:36 PM
The same images once more.
I just would like to finally know who was in Mj´s house before he died. Who entered that night? who was the guy showing his face in the camera that night? who? Still no answer.
Murray is in jail, but what about that person? Nobody have idea about his identity?
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 04, 2012, 04:31:41 PM
Maybe it was a Wake Up call. Why took RTL so much money in a Video?
In the Article from everlastinglove_MJ they say, that was a Hoax Video to show how easy it is
to manipulate people, it must be a reason for that. For me, this Day was the Day to wake up.
This was the time, to stop my tears from day one, to go into me and hear of my heart.
Hoax Video = Hoax Death= thank you MJ
I`m awake
love
I’m with you shorty. Just because someone alleged it to be an “experiment” doesn’t convince me one bit. My question is why an “experiment” during a time of mass mourning for many? Distasteful at the least. Disrepectful also to the family had it been truth that they believed Michael was dead. I don’t buy it. Who said it was an experiment anyway? What are their credentials that we are to believe it and take it at face value?
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 04:39:21 PM
... I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. ...
:th_bravo:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 04:41:42 PM
... Candid Camera the TV show did it and it aired in 1999: ...
Good point. However, did Candid Camera ever broadcast any of their pranks live? Or did they have to have permission from the unknowing “actors”, before being able to legally broadcast it? :icon_question: :icon_question:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 04:43:47 PM
The judgment does not say alleged died, but the alleged victim, a different thing, because what is alleged is the victimization not death.
:th_bravo:
And think again about what is NOT alleged.
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 04:50:58 PM
QuoteCalifornia | Medical Malpractice
11/11/11, 5:27 pmLegal QuestionAttorneys Only: Answer this Question
Why in the Conrad Murray case, during the verdict Michael Jackson was still stated as alleged victim?and waht does alleged date means?
...
Legal Answer When the verdict form was drafted, Jackson was still an "alleged" victim, because Dr. Murray was then presumed innocent. Obviously, that's no longer true.
Michael Stone
Law Offices of Michael B. Stone Toll Free 1-855-USE-MIKE
3020 Old Ranch Parkway, Suite 300
Seal Beach, CA 90740
http://www.lawguru.com/legal-questions/-/conrad-murray-case-verdict-michael-119617113/a
Is this guy a real lawyer, or a clown? :icon_geek:
In how many other court cases was the word "alleged" included, merely because the form was drafted before the decision of the jury? :animal0017: :icon_e_confused: :icon_rolleyes: :Pulling_hair: :icon_lol:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 04:53:31 PM
... If this trial was real, it really shows what a joke then is the whole legal system. ...
:th_bravo:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 04:55:14 PM
I'm with you Andrea, still, on this subject.
TS's attempts to debunk this scenario ARE weak, by his own words, he rejects the theory that MJ was there that day by saying "it was too risky", as in "MJ wouldn't DO that" because it doesn't fit into a preconceived notion held by the theorize-r.
And then there's the things he SAYS....
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.
Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.
MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).
which indicates to me that there was a change of plans because why else refer to "ORIGINAL" plan if there ended up being subsequent plans.
This is not what I understand. Here TS is answering Souza and this is Souza who is first talking about Michael’s "original plan" and it seems to me that in his answer TS talks about the original plan in order to reinforce the notion that it was not Michael’s intent to be present at the hospital even from the preparation stages. He ends by saying that it wasn't his plan: "therefore, that was not his plan".
:th_bravo:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:00:14 PM
Hey yeah, good point, UYI, thanks. TS keeps saying how MJ didn't go to UCLA that day because it would be too risky, and yes everything has risk but that would be the RISKIEST scenario of all...
...well ok TS, how 'bout that? Having Murray refusing to pronounce MJ dead and insisting on going to UCLA via ambulance is probably THE RISKIEST SCENARIO in which to fake your death short of an actual public death (run over by car outside greeting fans or something), that's about as public as it gets, so we could use your "supportive evidence" right back against you and say, ok fine it's too risky to have MJ himself go to UCLA, so why would That exact Scenario get written into MJ's script at all? It's a huge rats nest of potential problems (risk!) and invites scores more people in (more risk!) who have to be either A) directly fooled in the first person or B) brought in on the hoax, so really, you just debunked the whole hoax right there. MJ must be dead because MJ the cautious yet daring genius that he is, would never paint himself into a corner like this. He is limited only by his imagination when choosing how he will die and he chooses this?? Seems unbelievable if he's concerned about someone "spilling the beans".
Ps. TS, can you tell that I've missed you? :icon_bounce:
I love you, too, bec! :bearhug:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:03:54 PM
...
Someone who died, or someone who was alive and did not need any medication for what in the photo there is no IV
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ivcomp10.jpg)
:th_bravo:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:07:58 PM
...
It's tough to dance around without conceding that MJ must be dead based on TS's argument of risk avoidance.
Ok, so I guess we have Level 7b finished: the real Michael Joe Jackson went to UCLA in the ambulance, and he was really dead. What does that leave for 7c? Hoax court, sting court, both, or neither? :computer-losy-smiley: :errrr: :Crash: :icon_bounce: :icon_e_surprised: :suspect: :judge-smiley: :Pulling_hair: :over-react-smiley:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:11:57 PM
My logic says to me that a “body” had to be taken from Carolwood to UCLA to distract attention of the goings on and clean up efforts, staging, etc. at the home long enough for loose ends to be tied together before attention was reverted back to the residence.
I think that this was already discussed years ago, early in the hoax; and the discussion was that a death in the house would’ve made the house a potential crime scene, and/or the focus of investigation, etc. Maybe someone who has time can pull up some things from that thread, if you can find it.
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:20:50 PM
I'm sure TS didn't ask about that movie for nothing....there must be something very interesting about it and it's very frustrating that I can't find or guess what movie is that.
:icon_e_sad:
There were some movies relevant for this hoax, starting with The court of Last resort, then Gilda and The Illusionist and V for Vendetta and 2012. TS can't you please narrow the research area and give us some hints?
Unfortunately, I am not able to narrow the search. Personally, I have not seen every movie that has ever been made; but I tend to doubt that anyone will find "alleged" in a verdict in ANY movie (or any other real court case, for that matter). So far, nobody on this thread has reported finding even one such case. Therefore, we must now ask WHY was the word "alleged" used--if indeed it is strictly hoax court, entertainment movie only, and not a real sting in a real court case (with some hoax elements and clues, to avoid entrapment, etc)?
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:24:06 PM
... So I would say in answer to TS question, that yes “alleged” covers them, or cancels out what was said in the verdict of 'guilty'.
So would that mean that if there really exists a Dr. Murray, that he really wasn’t in jail because his conviction was cancelled/nullified? And the jury was flushed down the toilet for calling him guilty. Jury on trial. ...
:th_bravo:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:28:52 PM
... JJ's slip up was there as a decoy, he put it in our minds and we assumed MJ went to the airport. ...
If the family is giving misleading hoax clues, then we might as well believe that they are just playing games with us and MJ is dead. Also, many hoaxers already believed that MJ flew out of LAX, months before Jermaine gave this clue. So that belief was not based on Jermaine’s “airport” slip of the lip; instead, Jermaine's statement was confirmation.
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:30:38 PM
... Unless we believe that Mike has not left LA in the last 3+ years (which would be another assumption at this point)...then other locations are involved. I don't see that as a problem in the least, considering Mike was able to visit MANY locations before 'death' where he could 'hide out' and/or only be seen if he wanted to be. None of this, IMO, would require adding a whole bunch more people into the mix....he would just have to have included/used people already working for/with him, who were under confidentiality agreements any way. ...
:th_bravo:
Post by: suspicious mind on November 04, 2012, 05:34:14 PM
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:39:17 PM
... Isn't it safer to simply squirrel away where ever he is headed to ride out the hoax by car? ...
It’s tough getting from LA to Bahrain in a car! :LolLolLolLol:
Quote
... In going with the theme that actual recalled events are easier to relay later when questioned then fabricated ones ... Too many players who are not professional actors are required to speak about it (ER docs, EMTs) later and stick to a story for that story to stray too far from actual events... even if they were brought in on things. Asking these people to "lie" in front of the camera (real OR fake court, no matter) is asking too much... too risky that someone would make a mistake. But if they recall real events, they are more likely to play their parts correctly and without a hitch.
:th_bravo:
Quote
... Discovering that the patient WAS MJ but he was FINE would blow the whole hoax wide open and kill it from ground zero. ...
:th_bravo:
Post by: SimPattyK on November 04, 2012, 05:40:11 PM
oh for goodness sake ! it's time to tell the truth! will the real michael jackson please stand up?! :thjajaja121::thjajaja121: :thjajaja121:
Watch this: ABC 20-20 -- Michael Jackson 'After Life' Pt 3 of 11 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYN_Z45tf50&feature=relmfu
And also that "stand up"!! remember that Murray didn't stand up during the reading if his verdict! as the law stipulates!
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/harveyther.jpg)
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 05:43:37 PM
... I'm not even sure that the levels (especially Level 7) were ever meant to lead us to answers....perhaps they were meant to fine-tune our questions/methods.
Some of both.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 04, 2012, 05:52:24 PM
Quote
CURLS: " ... I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. ..."
---> TS: bravo
MJonMind: " ... If this trial was real, it really shows what a joke then is the whole legal system. ..."
---> TS: bravo
MJonMind: " ... So I would say in answer to TS question, that yes “alleged” covers them, or cancels out what was said in the verdict of 'guilty'.
So would that mean that if there really exists a Dr. Murray, that he really wasn’t in jail because his conviction was cancelled/nullified?
And the jury was flushed down the toilet for calling him guilty. Jury on trial. ...
---> TS: bravo
If "bravo" means "yes, it's true", then in conclusion: the trial was a sting operation, most probably pulled out with the help of the police/FBI ! Therefore, everything we saw, was part real , part fake (HOAX)! And the characters were part actors (performing their role), part unaware people (being supervised by the mastermind behind the curtain)!
What we need to find out now is who EXACTLY were the actors and who were the people being stung! loll :icon_lol:
Post by: Andrea on November 04, 2012, 05:57:11 PM
The judgment does not say alleged died, but the alleged victim, a different thing, because what is alleged is the victimization not death.
:th_bravo:
And think again about what is NOT alleged.
But the date was alleged too so if there were "real" people recalling "real" events, why make the date alleged in the verdict, as well as the victim?
Post by: Adi on November 04, 2012, 06:55:21 PM
The judgment does not say alleged died, but the alleged victim, a different thing, because what is alleged is the victimization not death.
:th_bravo:
And think again about what is NOT alleged.
But the date was alleged too so if there were "real" people recalling "real" events, why make the date alleged in the verdict, as well as the victim?
Perhaps because if they did use a cadaver (as is suggested in one of the theories of who went to UCLA) then "whoever" died might have died on another day (maybe June 24th ?) and NOT June 25th 2009. So June 25th 2009 becomes "alleged"......remember they waited to bring MJ down to the ambulance until after the house staff had left.
Post by: bec on November 04, 2012, 07:00:49 PM
... Isn't it safer to simply squirrel away where ever he is headed to ride out the hoax by car? ...
It’s tough getting from LA to Bahrain in a car! :LolLolLolLol:Quote... In going with the theme that actual recalled events are easier to relay later when questioned then fabricated ones ... Too many players who are not professional actors are required to speak about it (ER docs, EMTs) later and stick to a story for that story to stray too far from actual events... even if they were brought in on things. Asking these people to "lie" in front of the camera (real OR fake court, no matter) is asking too much... too risky that someone would make a mistake. But if they recall real events, they are more likely to play their parts correctly and without a hitch.
:th_bravo:Quote... Discovering that the patient WAS MJ but he was FINE would blow the whole hoax wide open and kill it from ground zero. ...
:th_bravo:
Who says he's in Bahrain? :suspect:
So live MJ can't be on the stretcher. If it's anyone other then MJ on that stretcher the EMTs and ER docs that testified in court have to be in on it. If they're in on it, it could be anything on that stretcher other then live MJ because anyone seeing it who's not in on it would just assume they were seeing a decoy, so appearances don't matter much. Anything that allowed them to go through the motions to recall under oath later would do.
Post by: Adi on November 04, 2012, 07:10:33 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 04, 2012, 07:17:35 PM
... Unless we believe that Mike has not left LA in the last 3+ years (which would be another assumption at this point)...then other locations are involved. I don't see that as a problem in the least, considering Mike was able to visit MANY locations before 'death' where he could 'hide out' and/or only be seen if he wanted to be. None of this, IMO, would require adding a whole bunch more people into the mix....he would just have to have included/used people already working for/with him, who were under confidentiality agreements any way. ...
:th_bravo:
That makes total sense and is absolutely true. But we're talking about the specific date of June 25th here and I don't see what would make it NECESSARY for MJ to fly half way around the world. Speaking of Bahrain, you hinted a while ago TS, that it was one of the places MJ was hiding out in. So MJ flew for hours and hours right after everything went down? That doesn't ring true for me.
Post by: paula-c on November 04, 2012, 07:21:13 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 04, 2012, 07:22:20 PM
Actually - yeah......a life like dummy could have sufficed for an "alleged" victim dying on an "alleged" date.
Well we do know there may have been a dummy used at some point in the preparation of this hoax...
(http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/218923/80678247.jpg)
Post by: santiago on November 04, 2012, 07:23:58 PM
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 04, 2012, 07:34:29 PM
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 04, 2012, 07:42:39 PM
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 04, 2012, 07:50:42 PM
Post by: bec on November 04, 2012, 08:39:42 PM
And good point about Candid Camera not being live. Hmm.
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
Watch from 5:39 - Blount says when he stepped into the bedroom there were already there Goodwin and Brad who were assisting Murray to move the patient from the bed to the floor.
So this Brad was there too and saw and touched the body.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&list=PL8B911E82F130FD13&v=QQXU2KE1j_k#![/youtube]
Several comments on this thread have referred to him as "Brad"; but his name is Bret (Heron).
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 04, 2012, 09:18:54 PM
He would need to be available immediately in case anything went wrong or anything unforeseen necessitated changes along the way. Cell service is questionable in flight and so would be communication. I imagine the director stays on the scene while filming. You protest, TS, that MJ is behind the camera in the famous Liberian Girl pics (also in the TII promo shot) but I argue those pics show he is on the set.
And good point about Candid Camera not being live. Hmm.
Maybe sometimes he is directing and sometimes he is filming ? In different disguises of course. Maybe acting different parts and of course writing/planning the whole thing. The whole thing is mind blowing really. It will send shock waves across the world. :bowdown:
Post by: Andrea on November 04, 2012, 09:27:44 PM
He would need to be available immediately in case anything went wrong or anything unforeseen necessitated changes along the way. Cell service is questionable in flight and so would be communication. I imagine the director stays on the scene while filming. You protest, TS, that MJ is behind the camera in the famous Liberian Girl pics (also in the TII promo shot) but I argue those pics show he is on the set.
And good point about Candid Camera not being live. Hmm.
Maybe sometimes he is directing and sometimes he is filming ? In different disguises of course. Maybe acting different parts and of course writing/planning the whole thing. The whole thing is mind blowing really. It will send shock waves across the world. :bowdown:
The events of June 25th sent shock waves around the world too. Michael is a self-admitted perfectionist and I agree that he wouldn't want to be on a plane, at least partially cut off from knowing exactly what is going on, not to mention missing seeing the world's reactions in real time. That whole scenario seems too arm's length away from his own hoax.
Post by: Adi on November 04, 2012, 10:11:45 PM
As far as the "alleged" date goes, did we ever figure out if there was any significance to the date of June 9th 2009? I believe that was the date that was on the verdict form before it got crossed out and corrected with some squigglies by jury member #3 (which IMO should make the verdict null and void anyway).
June 9th 2009 was when the filming of the Dome Project was completed.
Post by: Andrea on November 04, 2012, 10:24:04 PM
I'm sure TS didn't ask about that movie for nothing....there must be something very interesting about it and it's very frustrating that I can't find or guess what movie is that.
:icon_e_sad:
There were some movies relevant for this hoax, starting with The court of Last resort, then Gilda and The Illusionist and V for Vendetta and 2012. TS can't you please narrow the research area and give us some hints?
Unfortunately, I am not able to narrow the search. Personally, I have not seen every movie that has ever been made; but I tend to doubt that anyone will find "alleged" in a verdict in ANY movie (or any other real court case, for that matter). So far, nobody on this thread has reported finding even one such case. Therefore, we must now ask WHY was the word "alleged" used--if indeed it is strictly hoax court, entertainment movie only, and not a real sting in a real court case (with some hoax elements and clues, to avoid entrapment, etc)?
... So I would say in answer to TS question, that yes “alleged” covers them, or cancels out what was said in the verdict of 'guilty'.
So would that mean that if there really exists a Dr. Murray, that he really wasn’t in jail because his conviction was cancelled/nullified? And the jury was flushed down the toilet for calling him guilty. Jury on trial. ...
:th_bravo:
The "alleged" was used right in the jury's verdict, read by the court clerk. That covers both the verdict and the jury, imo. Maybe this was some sort of secret, elaborate mock trial or moot court with not necessarily everyone there having to know. The verdict itself doesn't exist (thanks to "alleged") which could make the argument that the whole trial was just an imitation of a real court case and NOT real itself.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 04, 2012, 10:27:06 PM
... JJ's slip up was there as a decoy, he put it in our minds and we assumed MJ went to the airport. ...
If the family is giving misleading hoax clues, then we might as well believe that they are just playing games with us and MJ is dead. Also, many hoaxers already believed that MJ flew out of LAX, months before Jermaine gave this clue. So that belief was not based on Jermaine’s “airport” slip of the lip; instead, Jermaine's statement was confirmation.
Good to have you back TS, missed ya!
Umm yeah, I guess
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 04, 2012, 10:32:24 PM
I don't think MJ would be in Bahrain either for the same reasons stated above. I also don't think he'd leave his children so far away from him unless his life was in danger and he wanted to protect them. Somehow I don't see them in immediate danger. I tend to wonder if he's living in Encino where the "supposed" remodeling is going on. Either that or he's at Neverland OR he could be at one of his many friends's homes as we heard an interview last week where he stayed with (can't remember the name) his friend during his Pepsi accident and nobody knew. I thought it was interesting timing for that story to come out.
Blessings
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 10:53:32 PM
... The verdict itself doesn't exist (thanks to "alleged") which could make the argument that the whole trial was just an imitation of a real court case and NOT real itself.
But if it was not a real court, not operating under real judicial laws (and was merely an entertainment movie), then WHY the need for the word "alleged"? NO OTHER MOVIE (or TV show) has been found, using the world "alleged"--so why would it be needed in this case, if there was no need to in other court movies?
We could perhaps write it off as merely a hoax "clue"; but that seems like a rather shallow explanation, especially since it came at the END of the whole trial--where many clues had already been given, and what was the need to slip in one more clue at the end? Just for fun? And even if one more last minute clue was needed: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:judge-smiley:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 04, 2012, 10:56:59 PM
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 11:00:31 PM
Was it a hoax clue for unbelievers?
... And even if one more last minute clue was needed [for unbelievers]: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:icon_bounce:
Post by: TS_comments on November 04, 2012, 11:09:27 PM
... But we're talking about the specific date of June 25th here and I don't see what would make it NECESSARY for MJ to fly half way around the world. Speaking of Bahrain, you hinted a while ago TS, that it was one of the places MJ was hiding out in. So MJ flew for hours and hours right after everything went down? That doesn't ring true for me.
My statement about driving to Bahrain in a car was a joke. Nevertheless, like Elvis, MJ has probably been in hiding at multiple locations during his dead life (:icon_lol:). The jet left LAX in the morning, hours before kick-off time. So by noon, MJ could've been back on the ground in some other city, state, or even country--whether or not he was enroute to Bahrain. Then he could watch, and direct remotely if needed, while being far from higher risks that would exist at Carolwood or UCLA.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 04, 2012, 11:11:31 PM
Was it a hoax clue for unbelievers?
... And even if one more last minute clue was needed [for unbelievers]: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:icon_bounce:
Legal terms are just more believable...Whhhaaattt!!
Fuukkk I don't get it, why would MJ need to leave L.A on June 25th?
Post by: ellyd on November 05, 2012, 12:20:36 AM
Then he could watch, and direct remotely if needed, while being far from higher risks that would exist at Carolwood or UCLA.
Which Michael did, not only at Memorial.
Post by: wishingstar on November 05, 2012, 12:23:05 AM
part of Michael's complicated and pained life. So perhaps, "alleged" was used as a nod or reference to the 2005 trial. Instead of the legal
ramification we are trying to make it out to be.
With regards of Michael leaving on June 25th....somehow I don't think so. Unless he was already gone when it all went down. I can't help
but think airport was more than a slip however. I also can't get the Santa Monica Airport out of my head. The hanger there, full of his art
always intrigued me to no end. Could it be that has been home base? Who knows..........
Good to see you around posting TS......better watch it though, this hoax is addicting stuff :icon_lol:
Blessings Always
Post by: bec on November 05, 2012, 12:25:34 AM
Because it was live and included people who were not aware that it wasn't real so it was used for legality but also was used to indicate to anyone who was paying attention that it wasn't a real verdict (prevent entrapment).... The verdict itself doesn't exist (thanks to "alleged") which could make the argument that the whole trial was just an imitation of a real court case and NOT real itself.
But if it was not a real court, not operating under real judicial laws (and was merely an entertainment movie), then WHY the need for the word "alleged"? NO OTHER MOVIE (or TV show) has been found, using the world "alleged"--so why would it be needed in this case, if there was no need to in other court movies?
We could perhaps write it off as merely a hoax "clue"; but that seems like a rather shallow explanation, especially since it came at the END of the whole trial--where many clues had already been given, and what was the need to slip in one more clue at the end? Just for fun? And even if one more last minute clue was needed: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:judge-smiley:
?
Also, like UYI said, why would MJ need to leave LA on 6/25/09? The only place anyone would be looking for him was on a stretcher inside UCLA and later in a locker at the morgue.
Post by: TS_comments on November 05, 2012, 12:32:38 AM
... Because it was live and included people who were not aware that it wasn't real so it was used for legality but also was used to indicate to anyone who was paying attention that it wasn't a real verdict (prevent entrapment).
Exactly!
The key word is "also"--it served TWO purposes: a clue, and ALSO legalities. Which means that the court was BOTH hoax court, and sting court! (Ooops, did I spill the beans?)
:th_bravo: :th_bravo:
Post by: TS_comments on November 05, 2012, 12:37:46 AM
... The word, "alleged" is close to the word, "allegations". We all know that particular word points to one
part of Michael's complicated and pained life. So perhaps, "alleged" was used as a nod or reference to the 2005 trial. Instead of the legal
ramification we are trying to make it out to be. ...
Was the word "alleged" or "allegations" used in the 2005 VERDICT? If not, then that is hardly a parallel or nod or reference to 2005 (at least not the only reason). Instead, alleged could be used throughout the Murray trial, before the verdict, if it was merely a reference to 2005.
Post by: TS_comments on November 05, 2012, 12:41:58 AM
... Which means that the court was BOTH hoax court, and sting court! (Ooops, did I spill the beans?)
Of course that concept is not entirely new; several have already mentioned it. But I'm wanting to put this conclusion on a more solid basis, than has been done before, in order to complete Level 7 solidly.
:compute:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 05, 2012, 12:53:24 AM
Nice TS...21 posts in a day, well done. The word, "alleged" is close to the word, "allegations". We all know that particular word points to one
part of Michael's complicated and pained life. So perhaps, "alleged" was used as a nod or reference to the 2005 trial. Instead of the legal
ramification we are trying to make it out to be.
With regards of Michael leaving on June 25th....somehow I don't think so. Unless he was already gone when it all went down. I can't help
but think airport was more than a slip however. I also can't get the Santa Monica Airport out of my head. The hanger there, full of his art
always intrigued me to no end. Could it be that has been home base? Who knows..........
Good to see you around posting TS......better watch it though, this hoax is addicting stuff :icon_lol:
Blessings Always
If this hoax is so addicting Wishing then where is Its Her...lol...she can't hack it can she, she isn't really up for anything that is above her intelligence huh? :affraid: did I just call her out?
Post by: MJonmind on November 05, 2012, 01:03:24 AM
Quote
But I'm wanting to put this conclusion on a more solid basis, than has been done before, in order to complete Level 7 solidly.
So it’s etched in stone then (it'd be nice finally :fresse:), MJ left in the jet hours before Murray ‘went to the bathroom’. Wherever he went, Bahrain or countless options, he was in communication with the ‘team members’. Guessing it had to have been a hospice patient who stayed at the house perhaps weeks before already, and Murray or someone other qualified, perhaps even had him all hooked up for propofol to convince bodyguards, who were NEVER allowed upstairs. In Elvis’ case they did facial surgeries to help the patient look like Elvis. Remember the MJ autopsy said the guy had tattooed eye-liners, lips, hair-line, etc. EMT and everyone at UCLA was so concerned to just cover their own ass, they didn’t wonder about odd things, same as at the trial. I would think real lawyers would have jumped right up and cried ‘foul’ after hearing ‘alleged’ read, but perhaps it shows the utter respect for authority they all have, and not thinking for themselves. How long MJ would need to stay away from LA, is the next question, depending on if he was there in person at the memorial, etc.
So I’m guessing from the TMZ naked men story, that the naked truth was that there were 18 ‘dreamteamers’ that pulled this hoax all off, including MJ. :icon_e_smile:
Post by: ellyd on November 05, 2012, 01:08:27 AM
1
: asserted to be true or to exist <an alleged miracle>
2
: questionably true or of a specified kind : supposed, so-called <bought an alleged antique vase>
3
: accused but not proven or convicted <an alleged burglar>
— al·leg·ed·ly adverb
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alleged (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alleged)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Y2f7x0V6Y&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Y2f7x0V6Y&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Y2f7x0V6Y&feature=related)
Start at 2:00:
Not alleged thus real / proven:
Time verdict was read (Nov 7, 2011, 1:17 pm PDT)
Superior Court of California, Los Angeles County
The people of the State of California - plaintiff
CRM - defendent
case #
jury involved in the interaction
jury finds guilty
CM found guilty of the crash / crush ? of involuntary manslaughter
penal code section 192 subsection B
alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson
alleged date of June 25, 2009
as charged in count one of the information
date of verdict
juror ID #
individual and personal verdicts
Post by: MaryK on November 05, 2012, 01:17:31 AM
If so: who was taking care of them during the drama?
Would he really leave them alone with only the bodyguards (well and Kai Chase and Dr. Murray and other staff)?
Post by: curls on November 05, 2012, 02:54:03 AM
So ..... if there was a sting element - who or what was it against? The whole system maybe? (It 'sucks' according to MJ)
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 05, 2012, 03:10:21 AM
Mike was able to visit MANY locations before 'death' where he could 'hide out' and/or only be seen if he wanted to be.
Again, not saying he boarded a plane or that he didn't...or that he went to UCLA or that he didn't....it would just be more assumptions and speculation. But, IMO, out of all the possible scenarios, having a live and healthy-looking MJ anywhere near UCLA on June 25th would be THE riskiest move of all to pull after a 20 year long hoax plan. But, that too, is 'technically' an opinion based on several assumptions and is not 'proof' enough to state, as fact, that he wasn't there.
This is tail chasing at its finest.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Haha yeah something like that.
Ok so MJ going to UCLA or MJ going to the airport...yes indeed either opinion is just an assumption but...
Reason to go to UCLA (even though I still don't agree with this (risky) but on the basis of comparing, I'll use it).
-Hoax of course, MJ is 'dying' and needs medical attention
Reasons to go to the airport
-None, unless he had something to do on the side like maybe he wanted to explore the world, backpack in England, climb Machu Picchu, play 'Where's Wally' or 'Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego'...lol, ah so there is no reason for him to leave.
Like you said if he needed to hideout he could, London, even right in hoax/death city; L.A, anywhere.
@TS you haven't backed up the reason why MJ would need to leave L.A, only stating:
Quote
Then he could watch, and direct remotely if needed, while being far from higher risks that would exist at Carolwood or UCLA.
That's funny that you mention that, because you call Carolwood as well as UCLA a risk for MJ to be there, but like it was discussed before by other members, to go to UCLA (MJ or no MJ) would be risky. So is it or isn't it?
Ok, he can also be far away from Carolwood without leaving the city, leaving on a plane would be risky too, for obvious reasons.
Hmm, so MJ had to get away from a risky place (Carolwood or UCLA) just so he could go do something equally as risky (to the airport)...yeah I'll believe that when I can moonwalk (and believe me I've tried, tried really hard (to Moonwalk I mean).
That can't be your only reason why MJ needed to leave Carolwood and you haven't given us a substantial reason why he needed to leave. Which, in your assumption you state that MJ had to get away from a risky place. I'm assuming MJ wouldn't jeopardise his hoax program for something he didn't need to do.
Not only that, wouldn't it be a double risk if MJ left L.A and then came back. Because my naive belief is that MJ needed to comeback to L.A for Dave Dave (unless you don't think that was MJ) then I'm just :Pulling_hair: and might need a couple of :beerchug: to suppress the pain.
But then again, I'd probably get taken to :judge-smiley: after being charged with SUI (Sleeping under the Influence) :over-react-smiley: and would think of :smiley-vault-misc-150: myself to jail. But oh wait what's this :omg: :WTF: ... :elvis-1405: will :moonwalk_: in ( :woohoo2:) and represent me, and :ghsdf: up some some exceptional defence. I would be forever indented to him :bowdown: and tell him :abouttime: that he got himself down to the :judge-smiley: . After I get let off I'd slowly back away :Michael_Jackson_smiley_by_red do a little dance :michael-jackson: while telling the :judge-smiley: how :michael_jackson-1135: I am :images:. I'd :argue: with :elvis-1405: about coming in late :icon_evil: then I'd :icon_redface:, apologise and show him some :smiley_abuv: :th_bravo: . We would have a huge homecoming :multiplespotting: a few :beerchug: (while awake of course), sing a few karaoke songs :screaming-7365: and do a few moves :penguin: (top notch, inspired of course by my pet :icon_albino: and his bestie :animal0017: bait). And that was all just a couple of minutes ago, and now I'm :compute: and telling you all...(damn where is the post button :computer-losy-smiley: :Crash: oh found it :icon_rr:).
And that my friends was a UYI original...'The Emoticon Story'.
Nar I was only kidding :TongueOutSmiley: can't believe you all believed me, I'm just that good am I :icon_cool: :icon_lol: :icon_geek: (heck MJ should let me run the operations of his hoax, easy, like a walk in Echo Park (probably a bad analogy since people get mugged around there a lot) if you really didn't want all this to happen TS may-bay you'd fill us in on the blanks, like this:
1. MJ did/didn't go to UCLA because _______
2. MJ did/didn't go to the airport because ______
Sorry about this, been a long day, exams will do that to you.
Post by: MJonmind on November 05, 2012, 05:02:45 AM
I’m thinking it’s better to drop anchor at least somewhere, by accepting TS’—MJ flew outta there June 25. I vote for starting to rethink the basic key scenes. Part of our torture and exasperation up to now, was thinking TS was tricking us, and that MJ was there somehow. :icon_lol: Sorry TS! I’m kinda relieved to read:
Quote
If the family is giving misleading hoax clues, then we might as well believe that they are just playing games with us and MJ is dead. Also, many hoaxers already believed that MJ flew out of LAX, months before Jermaine gave this clue. So that belief was not based on Jermaine’s “airport” slip of the lip; instead, Jermaine's statement was confirmation.So then we must take this one seriously then too?
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/lifeisamovie1/MJ%20family%202/11-Jermaine-T-ShirtBahrainetIreland.jpg)
Quote
My statement about driving to Bahrain in a car was a joke. Nevertheless, like Elvis, MJ has probably been in hiding at multiple locations during his dead life ( ). The jet left LAX in the morning, hours before kick-off time. So by noon, MJ could've been back on the ground in some other city, state, or even country--whether or not he was enroute to Bahrain.So another city could even be an airstrip close to Neverland where he could have a command center bunker.
Voice, I liked your thoughts on the story Emmanuel Lewis told only days ago, that MJ hid at his place after the Pepsi fire, and nobody knew. There’s the Cascio’s in New Jersey (that’s another city, TS!), and the story someone told of seeing what appeared to be MJ and his 3 kids on a beach on the eastern coast, at the former Pepsi CEO’s beach-house, and apparently he and MJ had been friends. So Mary, if true it might not necessarily be true that his kids were separated from him as much as it would seem.
Post by: shorty on November 05, 2012, 06:02:23 AM
My believe is, he`s at Neverland, in the near of his Kid`s and Family, and the property is guarded,for what reason? That none pick up
some Flowers?
He can watch from this point and have all under controll.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 05, 2012, 06:20:15 AM
UYI, your posts are becoming almost as colorful and lively as Its Her—where is that girl… MIA!
So your saying I was bland before? :icon_e_surprised: Haha, yeah I'm making up for ItsNotHer's lack of presence, warming up her seat until she gets here.
Nar I have split personalities, just ask UYI :icon_eek:
But seriously where is she? She hasn't been on here for ages.
Ok so this is partly a hoax court as well as a sting. But then who is the sting on? Is it a sting on more than one group or person?
@shorty it reminds me of Threatened....
Never Neverland, that’s the place
This particular monster can read minds
Be in two places at the same time
Post by: shorty on November 05, 2012, 06:49:02 AM
You are right use_your_illusion. But I know ONE person who can be at two places
at the same time.
You know too???
:thjajaja121:
Post by: bugsy on November 05, 2012, 06:53:12 AM
Maybe he had a central place set up already set so he could sit and watch all the new reports, as well as be able to guide it from a viewers perspective, so he could see what we saw, just as we only heard and saw what the Jurors saw and heard in the court? He use to sit at the back of the staples so he could watch the performances with Travis in his place so he could see it the way his fans would see it so he could change it as needed, would being in L.A give him the best "view"? with fans all over the place after they heard the news, it was a risk that someone would spot him around L.A... maybe even someone following those who was helping to see if they went to him?.. I would think if he stayed in L.A he would be trapped in a box with very little space to move so to speak, there is many different theories i could come up with for why it was necessary for him to leave L.A at that time..
Post by: MaryK on November 05, 2012, 06:58:32 AM
Regards to Michael Leaving his kids with just the Nanny, Kai Chase Bodyguards... when Prince was born, didn't he leave Prince in the care of a nanny while he went out of country for business? and in 2001 when he went to the UK? or did he take them along with him?
Yes of course you are right. I was just thinking that the whole situation on June 25 must have been very stressful and confusing for the children (even though I think they knew what was going to happen). So it was just a thought, a feeling...you know...a mother's heart :icon_e_wink:
Post by: bugsy on November 05, 2012, 07:38:43 AM
Quote
Posted by: MaryK
Quote from: leilani81 on Today at 01:53:12 PM
Regards to Michael Leaving his kids with just the Nanny, Kai Chase Bodyguards... when Prince was born, didn't he leave Prince in the care of a nanny while he went out of country for business? and in 2001 when he went to the UK? or did he take them along with him?
Yes of course you are right. I was just thinking that the whole situation on June 25 must have been very stressful and confusing for the children (even though I think they knew what was going to happen). So it was just a thought, a feeling...you know...a mother's heart :icon_e_wink:
Ahhh, I understand what you mean now
Post by: MissG on November 05, 2012, 07:42:21 AM
I remember when Murray got handcuffed (as Michael did get handcuffed being an innocent man...) when the jury decided that Murray was guilty.
Please refresh my mind: why did Michael get handcuffed back then? He never got a "guilty" veredict as far as we know.
And again, what about the man who that night came or left in a car and looked right to the surveilance camera? :icon_e_confused:
Post by: Andrea on November 05, 2012, 07:54:49 AM
... The verdict itself doesn't exist (thanks to "alleged") which could make the argument that the whole trial was just an imitation of a real court case and NOT real itself.
But if it was not a real court, not operating under real judicial laws (and was merely an entertainment movie), then WHY the need for the word "alleged"? NO OTHER MOVIE (or TV show) has been found, using the world "alleged"--so why would it be needed in this case, if there was no need to in other court movies?
We could perhaps write it off as merely a hoax "clue"; but that seems like a rather shallow explanation, especially since it came at the END of the whole trial--where many clues had already been given, and what was the need to slip in one more clue at the end? Just for fun? And even if one more last minute clue was needed: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:judge-smiley:
The mock trial was a suggestion, one that I'm not sure if it had been mentioned before. So we've determined that the word "alleged" has not been used in film/tv during a verdict reading (from what we didn't find). If the trial was a combination of hoax AND sting court, the word alleged covers entrapment issues while basically stating out in the open that it's a hoax court as well because it means Murray was sentenced without being charged. So it wasn't just for fun, I think it was a vital hoax clue and it makes sense that the "final" clue during the trial was dropped during the verdict reading.
"NO OTHER MOVIE...other court movies" ...interesting wording there TS.
Post by: Andrea on November 05, 2012, 08:17:41 AM
... But we're talking about the specific date of June 25th here and I don't see what would make it NECESSARY for MJ to fly half way around the world. Speaking of Bahrain, you hinted a while ago TS, that it was one of the places MJ was hiding out in. So MJ flew for hours and hours right after everything went down? That doesn't ring true for me.
My statement about driving to Bahrain in a car was a joke. Nevertheless, like Elvis, MJ has probably been in hiding at multiple locations during his dead life (:icon_lol:). The jet left LAX in the morning, hours before kick-off time. So by noon, MJ could've been back on the ground in some other city, state, or even country--whether or not he was enroute to Bahrain. Then he could watch, and direct remotely if needed, while being far from higher risks that would exist at Carolwood or UCLA.
Very true, I think the mysterious LAX flight left at around 9:00 that morning. So I agree, plenty of time to get settled somewhere else. But that's not necessarily what MJ did.
The post you bumped from December 2011, the video of Martin Blount - he claims he recognized MJ immediately. There was no question or confusion as to who the patient was, according to his account. So for the "realism" argument, it places MJ at Carolwood that day (assuming it wasn't a double or dummy). And it does seem that every precaution was taken to ensure MJ wouldn't be spotted at UCLA - people blocking direct shots of the stretcher, the fire alarm was pulled, etc. The fire alarm was also pulled the 1st (?) day of the trial, right at 2:26 p.m. now that I think about it.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 05, 2012, 08:37:07 AM
Post by: paula-c on November 05, 2012, 09:25:07 AM
Quote
Route: From (LAX) Los Angeles, CA, US to (GDL) Guadalajara, MX
Duration: 3h 05m
Equipment: Airbus Industrie A318 (Scheduled)
On-time Rating: 4,8 of 5 What is this?
Codeshares: This flight is marketed as a codeshare flight by the following carrier(s):
(QF) Qantas Airways 3863
(NZ) Air New Zealand 4207
(AA) American Airlines 8323
------------------------------------
Departure Status Details
Airport: (LAX) Los Angeles International Airport
City: Los Angeles, CA, US
Scheduled: 8:30 AM - Thu Jun 25, 2009
Actual: 8:44 AM - Thu Jun 25, 2009 (runway)
Took off runway 3 min later than scheduled runway departure
Terminal: B
Local Time: 6:50 PM - Sat Apr 24, 2010
------------------------------------------
Arrival Information Arrival Status Details
Airport: (GDL) Miguel Hidal Airport
City: Guadalajara, MX
Scheduled: 1:35 PM - Thu Jun 25, 2009
Estimated: 1:39 PM - Thu Jun 25, 2009 (runway)
Terminal: 1
Local Time: 8:50 PM - Sat Apr 24, 2010
(http://i69.servimg.com/u/f69/16/09/46/48/lax01a10.jpg)
(http://i69.servimg.com/u/f69/16/09/46/48/lax01b10.jpg)
(http://i69.servimg.com/u/f69/16/09/46/48/lax0210.jpg)
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 05, 2012, 09:46:00 AM
Post by: curls on November 05, 2012, 09:55:09 AM
I remember finding those LAX charts early on in my hoax life and thinking it was just too convenient ( aka too good to be true!) to find this suspicious flight and it's possible implications!
TS is trying really hard to take us along the route of MJ leaving by plane early on the morning of 25th June, while still having the day's events 'acted out' in some way, for the sake of realism, for witnesses to recall later. He's mentioned this on more than one occasion. This necessitates that 'something/someone', ideally similar to MJ, was on the bed, on the stretcher, in the ambulance, at UCLA, in the helicopter, at the coroners, for those witnesses to recall later ..... but I don't think we ever reached a conclusion on the 'who/what/if anything went to UCLA' level did we?
That 'something/someone' would have to be realistic enough for any 'accidental' witnesses to think it was a dead or dying MJ, (this also brings into question yet again just HOW MANY people were actually in on it that day) - OR .... it could be so unremarkable that if spotted, or uncovered, wouldn't be connected in the viewer's mind with MJ events unfolding. How about a 'resuscitation Annie' perhaps?! :michael-jackson: There must be some of these kicking around ambulances/hospitals for training purposes!
Honestly, there are so many ways this day could have been played out - do we really stand a chance of discovering the truth?! :icon_redface: All I know is my preferred method is the one TS tries the hardest to refute - i.e. MJ himself playing dead or dying for most, if not all of the day! :icon_eek:
Also, what's the point of him flying elsewhere that day? He'd have to be in disguise to avoid the risk of ruining the whole thing, and if he's going to be disguised, he may as well stay at home with the kids!
As I said, :Pulling_hair: But loving that you're spending time here TS, wrapping this up!
ADDED (a few minutes later!): All the court talk reminds me of something that's often run through my mind - people here have often expressed the belief that MJ is in full control of everything, but I sometimes wonder if he just set the ball rolling with his 'death', and he's been watching events pan out the same as the rest of us with regard to the trial etc? Sort of like - I'll pretend to die, leave lots of clues that it's a hoax and just sit back and see how far the system will take this thing without any real concrete evidence that I'm even dead. Just a thought!
Post by: RK on November 05, 2012, 10:22:20 AM
TSQuoteBut I'm wanting to put this conclusion on a more solid basis, than has been done before, in order to complete Level 7 solidly.
So it’s etched in stone then (it'd be nice finally :fresse:), MJ left in the jet hours before Murray ‘went to the bathroom’. Wherever he went, Bahrain or countless options, he was in communication with the ‘team members’. Guessing it had to have been a hospice patient who stayed at the house perhaps weeks before already, and Murray or someone other qualified, perhaps even had him all hooked up for propofol to convince bodyguards, who were NEVER allowed upstairs. In Elvis’ case they did facial surgeries to help the patient look like Elvis. Remember the MJ autopsy said the guy had tattooed eye-liners, lips, hair-line, etc. EMT and everyone at UCLA was so concerned to just cover their own ass, they didn’t wonder about odd things, same as at the trial. I would think real lawyers would have jumped right up and cried ‘foul’ after hearing ‘alleged’ read, but perhaps it shows the utter respect for authority they all have, and not thinking for themselves. How long MJ would need to stay away from LA, is the next question, depending on if he was there in person at the memorial, etc.
So I’m guessing from the TMZ naked men story, that the naked truth was that there were 18 ‘dreamteamers’ that pulled this hoax all off, including MJ. :icon_e_smile:
I'm hearing ya MJonmind. But not too sure what to think about the latest TMZ story tho. What would you make of the fart at the end? maybe something smelled off in that whole death house scenario?
I've been waiting and watching for this sting to happen in front of our eyes for a long time TS. Perhaps it already has behind the scenes where we can't see into yet? We've looked at so many of the people who were around about MJ's life and business and I'm still none the wiser as to who is the target of this sting. Not exactly sure who will be exposed, but I have always liked to imagine sneddon getting that much deserved butt kicking, but probably he is only a pawn, no more than a hired goon. I can't help but think of the killer thriller speech and MJ....You certainly did out think them. MJ emerging from the inside of a spider residing in a graveyard during Thriller in TII. A perfectly spun web that would have caught quite a few greedy hands in it's sticky hoax strands.
Post by: bec on November 05, 2012, 10:57:56 AM
There has not been a suggested motive that satisfies why MJ had to leave LA. As curls said, he would need a disguise to ensure no one who wasn't in on it would recognize him and "spill the beans" (as TS has been fond of saying) if he sought to escape via a public facility (airport). As she said, if he has to be disguised, he might as well disguise himself and go to UCLA.
All eyes would be focused on that stretcher whenever it was visible (like a magic trick, attract your attention here, while the key object is being hidden right before your eyes there). MJ could be dressed as a paramedic, his own body guard, even CM (ha, on stilts) and accompanying the stretcher could be argued as the SAFEST position in which for him to hide.
Envision: disguised MJ EMT pushes stretcher into UCLA. Not in on it Dr. meets them at the door, being nosy and "helpful", spies dummy on stretcher and looks at entourage for explanation... "we are just the decoy, man, the paparazzi are thick out there ya know". Not-in-on-it Dr, disappointed, shuffles off to search for "real" dying MJ stretcher... just to be, you know, helpful ;) .
Repeat as needed and he's in like Flynn.
Once "the body" is transported all the way to the coroner's office, he can chill til dark and then make his way home (Neverland) at his leisure.
We are speculating about the most famous man in the world who has made it his regular operating procedure to only be in the public eye when he WANTS to be for the past 30+ years. WHY, suddenly, do we accept that it would be SO difficult for MJ to say on the DL (down low thank you-back).
It's one thing for MJ to stay under cover when being transported by vehicle, something he did routinely in his "live" life for decades... and a whole other ball o' wax for him to do it at an airport post 9/11 when security is TIGHT, including body imaging etc.
Considering security at airports in the US:
Quote
Prior to the 1970s American airports had minimal security arrangements to prevent aircraft hijackings. Measures were introduced starting in the late 1960s after several high-profile hijackings.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_security
Sky marshals were introduced in 1970, but there were insufficient numbers to protect every flight and hijackings continued to take place. Consequently in late 1972, the Federal Aviation Administration required that all airlines begin screening passengers and their carry-on baggage by January 5, 1973. This screening was generally contracted to private security companies. Private companies would bid on these contracts. The airline that had operational control of the departure concourse controlled by a given checkpoint would hold that contract. Although an airline would control the operation of a checkpoint, oversight authority was held by the FAA. C.F.R. Title 14 restrictions did not permit a relevant airport authority to exercise any oversight over checkpoint operations.
The September 11 attacks prompted even tougher regulations, such as limiting the number of and types of items passengers could carry[35] on board aircraft and requiring increased screening for passengers who fail to present a government issued photo ID.
The Aviation and Transportation Security Act generally required that by November 19, 2002 all passenger screening must be conducted by Federal employees. As a result, passenger and baggage screening is now provided by the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), part of the Department of Homeland Security. Provisions to improve the technology for detecting explosives were included in the Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004. Often, security at category X airports, the U.S. largest and busiest as measured by volume of passenger traffic, are provided by private contractors.[36][37] Because of the high volume of passenger traffic, category X airports are considered vulnerable targets for terrorism.
Noticing the demand for new technology in airport security, General Electric (GE) started to develop the Secure Registered Traveler System. The new system would use newly developed technology such as automated carry-on scanning, automatic biological pathogen detection, millimeter-wave full body scanning and a quadrupole resonance carpet that would detect threats in shoes without having to take them off. The SRT program also works with smartcard technology along with fingerprint technology to help verify passengers. The fingerprint scanner also detects for explosive material traces on the person's fingers.
With the increase in security screening, some airports saw long queues for security checks. To alleviate this, airports created Premium lines for passengers traveling in First or Business Class, or those who were elite members of a particular airline's Frequent Flyer program.
The "screening passengers by observation techniques" (SPOT) program is operating at some U.S. airports.[38][39][40]
Body scanning, shoe detection mats, fingerprint scanners? And MJ is supposed to get through all this with minimal risk? I don't think so.
He could skip all that, for sure, but he'd have to identify himself as MJ and there goes the whole hoax.
So, out of the two offered possible scenarios offered, WHERE is MJ wearing a disguise in order to slip away LESS risky: UCLA or (any) airport?
I'd say UCLA, where they don't body scan you or take your fingerprints, nor do you have to pass through security checks.
So we have no motive, and we have a rat's nest of trouble with invasive government security. He'd need a disguise anywhere, as already stated, but a disguise would be MORE risky at a place set up to discover if you're wearing a disguise, with the technology in place to expose it, and potential criminal charges for doing so.
To board a plane you need to produce a photo ID, which needs to match your appearance. If you do not have a photo ID, you can still board, but before you are allowed on, you become subject to even more intense security including the potential of an "interview" (questioning) and a physical body search/pat down. If one wants to argue that MJ had an ID created that looked like him in his disguise, complete with fake name and identity, now we are talking federal crime: fake ID.
Yes, this is true of even private planes. Post 9/11 the airports do not screw around with security. You have to prove you are not on some terrorist watch list or other no-fly list. You have to. Everyone. No exceptions.
The airport theory just isn't realistic considering the consequences. So we have no stated motive AND an intense level of risk of ID being discovered with the airport scenario.
So why are we supposed to accept JJ's "slip up" as a legitimate clue when it doesn't pass the smell test? Reliable sources are not reliable if their offered information doesn't make sense. If Katherine Jackson tells me the sky is purple, am I to believe her? NO, because this statement is not reconcilable with information that is already established as fact.
Even reliable sources are sometimes unreliable. This is why we ought to think for ourselves as investigators, and DO!
Post by: santiago on November 05, 2012, 11:33:54 AM
in my head the events that took place on June 25th did not require for Michael to actually stay in L.A. and that whole mysterious flight combined with JJ's slip-up, to me, is the first and biggest clue, when thinking about the events that took place on THAT day cronologically. To me the slip-up and the flight were the concrete whispers (or shouts) to our direction, to get the attention of people, of the future hoaxers.. THAT to me is what got the ball rolling.. it had to be obvious... I admit that during these 3 years with the clues becoming more subtle and almost unnoticable at times, it feels like too big of a deal (or yes, too good to be true) to actually be taken for a serious hint, if you know what i mean.. at times I've been like naaaaah, that can't be it... it's too LOUD.. but I've come to think of it as something with a full-on purpose to start us wondering, a kick-start for the hoax.. it was no mistake. then after that, no wonder the clues have been subtler..
And I don't know about you guys, but I havent seen one picture of that day with MJ or anything even remotely like MJ on the way from Carolwood to UCLA... on a stretcher, on the bed, under the bed, on the floor, inside the house, outside the house, inside the hospital, outside the hospital, in the ambulance, while being moved from place to place....I've seen 'something' there, but it could be anything or anybody or no-body. I personally don't think Michael went to the hospital. It is crazy with the lack of decent pictures, of any proof, actually, when considering the fact that it was the biggest star of the universe that just passed away, and with supposedly all the paparazzis of the world there trying to snap a shot.. We do have the photoshopped pics, true.. but that's exactly what it is.
We've had the strange funeral and the Memorial.. wont go into detail of how i feel about that.. but those as well got people wondering is this for real..
With the court and the whole CM part of this thing I have to say i believe in illusion. Certain events took place for real, but some obviously didn't. The trial was real to a certain extent as in it did happen and it was broadcasted live for all the world to see.. but what was said and done in that court room starting with certain witnesses and in my opinion many other players in that house of justice was scripted, wasn't real.. A sting court, yes probably, to right some wrongs and get to the bottom of this rotten system (that sucks) and expose the wrongdoers for good.. I think we're still waiting on the whole thing to unfold to what really is/was the goal behind it.. who exactly of the participants, the characters that played along in the trial were in on it and who maybe weren't, i dont think we'll ever find out with this amount of knowledge we've got. some were probably lead on to believe certain things, so they could testify with confidence in ther words, some were plain actors.. maybe we don't need to know who exactly was and who was not. We need to know CM didn't kill MJ, CM is probably not a real person but a fictional character, he is not in jail, nobody is. I have a feeling there was/is something going on behind the curtains that in order to play out right in the name of Justice needed MJ to appear dead. Times are a changing, but sadly the systems hasn't. So even if he started to plan this 20 years ago, the objects of the sting are still there.. Some players may have changed but principles haven't. He's cunning, he's been planning this for all we know for a long time.. Sting and the involvement of higher bureaus ables so many things in this hoax and anserws so many unanswered questions. (for example how he was able to leave L.A) actually I'm confident the FBI and maybe other bureaus are involved in this and while MJ agreed to play along (or maybe even suggested the whole sting and brought forward the evidence he unmistakably has of the foul play and disgusting scenarios behind the industry and the whole system (starting from Sneddon to Mottola etc the forces behind that) he being the GENIUS he is, saw the opportunity here to truly become larger than life and give the world the greatest show on earth.
He's a master of disguise and when the world already thinks he's dead, imo it's not so difficult for him to travel around and change places. I hope these past years he's been living a life he maybe hasn't been able to before, maybe he got the chance with this hoax to, at least for a little while, experience something different from his life in a fishbowl..
I don't even know if this is what i believe. and i can't say i'm sure or even almost sure about anything i wrote above.. but i am sure that the alleged death of MJ on the alleged date of 25th of June did not take place. that's all i know.
:icon_e_confused: :moonwalk_:
Post by: BeTheChange on November 05, 2012, 11:43:10 AM
Here is an article published in 2010 in The New York Times that addresses this very topic: "The Private Way Around the Checkpoints" http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/business/09road.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/09/business/09road.html?_r=0)
Quote
There is a way to pretty much avoid the security hassle at the nation’s 450 or so commercial airports: Fly instead on a business jet or any other private aircraft. (O.K., most of us don’t have that option.)
But it is not generally known that, as the Transportation Security Administration said in a proposed set of rules in late 2008, “with few exceptions, T.S.A. does not currently require security programs” for general aviation aircraft operators.
.....
Most general aviation operations, including business aircraft flights, operate from thousands of secondary airports, most without commercial airline service and T.S.A. checkpoints. In general, private aircraft operators ensure their own security, usually under the aegis of the pilot and the company flying the plane.
In most cases, a passenger for a business jet simply walks, or is driven, to the door of the plane and boards without going through a metal detector or a pat-down. The industry points out that its record in security has been excellent.
Again, this in NO way means that MJ flew out on June 25th....just that IF he did, IMO, the risk would be minimal to non-existent. I'm sure that passenger info must have been recorded somewhere with some govt agency....but then again, IF the FBI is/was helping him out, then this wouldn't be a problem....any 'alias' would have sufficed and we know he's had a few.
Although I'm still unsure about whether or not he left on a plane 'that day'....I can see the logic of it being too risky for him to remain at Carolwood, since that location would be considered a 'hot spot' once the show got on the road (i.e. there would've been no telling when/if police/investigators were going to show up to begin investigations, take any witness testimony, etc). Remaining anywhere in or around Carolwood, IMO, would've been pretty risky.
Maybe his destination 'that day' was neither the airport nor UCLA?
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 05, 2012, 11:47:21 AM
Post by: wishingstar on November 05, 2012, 11:59:47 AM
... The word, "alleged" is close to the word, "allegations". We all know that particular word points to one
part of Michael's complicated and pained life. So perhaps, "alleged" was used as a nod or reference to the 2005 trial. Instead of the legal
ramification we are trying to make it out to be. ...
Was the word "alleged" or "allegations" used in the 2005 VERDICT? If not, then that is hardly a parallel or nod or reference to 2005 (at least not the only reason). Instead, alleged could be used throughout the Murray trial, before the verdict, if it was merely a reference to 2005.
So let's have another go at listening to the verdict:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqpGtrtKCPE[/youtube]
Judge Michael E. Pastor (I love that name for some reason).......he goes on to tell the jury that there is indeed a typo involving the
"alleged incident"......the original date of June 9, 2009 was corrected by juror #3 and June 25, 2009 written in with some "squiggles after that" (should be initials, but who's paying attention anyways). My point is that even before the verdict was read, the word "alleged" was used by the judge himself. The fact that the date was written incorrectly is a mystery....9 and 25 are not easy numbers to mess up. But, that's for another discussion. The word, "alleged" was not used in the 2005 verdict. Nor can we find it used in any, "other movie (or TV show)"......however, I suspect somewhere, in some movie or show it has been used in a verdict reading. Otherwise, why bother asking....to prove your point, TS? You prove your points quite well without the use of others. The moment the verdict was read in 2009 (Nov. 7th, btw)....we all picked up on the word, "allege". Being guilty of a crime against an alleged victim of an alleged incident....sounds like the US courts at times.
The only reason I brought up 2005 was that the two words are related. 2005 is talked about endlessly with the word,
"allegation". Yet, in 2009, nobody caught on that the word, "allege" was used in the verdict.....well, not the general public anyways. I just find it interesting, that's all. I think throughout this hoax, not just the trial, there have been many word games. Mostly put into place so when BAM does happen, they can be pointed to as an obvious give-a-way of not being a real death for Michael. I believe bases have been fully covered. Even if we hoaxers managed to sort things out a little too soon, we have been thrown off track more than once, or shall I say fell down many a rabbit hole. I still condone the notion of some sort of ARG...however, not all. In some way, there must have been some serious stuff to expose/correct/rectify .... whatever you want to call it. Jermaine's slip-up about the airport did seem more like a confirmation of sorts....but what airport? We assume LAX....I don't think so. We assume that just because he went to an airport, he left town. Again, I don't think so.....at least not right away (if at all). I think it was our old friend Blackjack that once said; Michael has everyone so convinced he's dead, he could walk out in public and nobody would believe it's him. Michael told us his disguises are so good he could fool his mother. He could have been in the scene the entire time....the dude hanging out the helicopter even....we'd never know. We won't know until Michael wants us to. If an illusion was place on June 25th, the turn would have been made in public view. When all is said and done, the court papers/records/recordings (whether real, sting or hoax) all show the word, "allege" or "alleged". Sometimes, I think history will show we here were alleged to have happened, lol. Is it real, or is it Memorex? I don't know......I'll leave that to the experts.
Blessings Always
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 05, 2012, 12:25:35 PM
Post by: bec on November 05, 2012, 12:27:38 PM
Maybe he hitched a ride in the cement truck that went into Neverland shortly after 6/25/09? That'd be easy enough to accomplish. Who would suspect the cement truck to contain KOP?
As reminded a few times, he had to be back in LA in time for the burial to do Dave Dave on LKL. So we have, allegedly, MJ flying once on or slightly before 6/25/09, and then another time between 6/25/09 and 9/3/09. By accepting one as truth, if you're going to stick with the established truths we have so far, you almost have to accept both, unless he flew somewhere that was within reasonable driving distance, in which case why fly in the first place?
The hoax was so well done that NO ONE was looking for MJ anywhere other then on a stretcher or in the morgue on and shortly following 6/25/09... so the purported "risk" is not easily apparent to me in the "MJ went to UCLA" scenario.
It changes the least amount of things from the original story. It allows first responders accuracy in reporting events. It allows first responders to be reasonably truthful when answering questions regarding MJ at the scene that day. It allows a first person perspective for MJ acting as director, it allows seamless and reliably private communication (see below) between him and his on site team to respond to live time, real world challenges and road blocks they may encounter along the way. It also allows the "official story" to be somewhat truthful and allows for some natural blurring of the illusion with reality, making it all the more difficult to unravel. If MJ could EVER be located in any place OTHER then UCLA or the morgue that day, the whole thing would have been ruined, immediately. That's the biggest risk of all. No one can be in two places at once, and this is one universally accepted truth in our universe, so MJ being with the team on site that day removes ALL potential risk of him being identified any where else, and therefore his hoax being undeniably exposed on day 1.
Regarding ensuring privacy, communications can be intercepted. Anything other then live, private communication risks being overheard or intercepted by an unintended third party. If ANYONE unintended heard communication between MJ and his on site team that day, the whole thing would be ruined.
If TS wants to argue TPTB were looking for MJ, then it is natural to accept there is some risk of them listening in on or intercepting his communications. One would even think his house and vehicles would be bugged. If they want to keep tabs on him and his movements, they can and will. How could he risk electronic communication with his team that day? If he were to leave for a remote location, he would have to utilize electronic methods to communicate, all of which carry the risk of eavesdropping.
The way I see it, taking all of these things into consideration, it would be the LEAST risky for him to remain with the team, communicate live and in person, and be exactly where it was being reported at the time.
Do we believe it reasonable to expect the possibility of someone rushing up and ripping his mask off? Same thing could have happened at LKL with Dave Dave yet they did that anyway... a stunt for seemingly much less important reasons then the kick off of the hoax.
We always said, watch the kids. Wherever they go, that's where he is. We expected them to be shipped off to "boarding school" over seas in the days and weeks following 6/25/09. Never happened. Reportedly, the kids have pretty much stayed in the LA area this whole time. But who knows?
Post by: ellyd on November 05, 2012, 12:36:57 PM
It's a matter of checking in with the right people and VIP line.
There's more people flying across the continent or beyond that have not been checked on a regular level.
Na, the question is WHY would MJ have to leave.
Potential reasons:
1) to avoid any risk / to not endanger the foreseen outcome e.g.
2) there's no need for him to be present
e.g. if
- tasks are 100% assigned to a co- / vice-director
- tasks don't need any of HIS supervision
- tasks will be executed as foreseen anyway
- he has no live influence on what happens in case the script is not being followed.
I`d think that somebody "fit for the job" of executive supervision engaged in taking the key position of the team, making it feasible for MJ to get out of any focal point of present tense the moment the world concentrated their apperception of MJ becoming "all of a sudden" and then being - accepted or not - past.
Time warp of the finest.
FBI taking over from the moment the ambulance left, steering the complete UCLA chapter up to coroner garage entry would explain that MJ could be elsewhere and did not need to be present.
TS said that court was a little bit of everything: hoax, sting, entertainment.
Hoax court is manifested many times in videos, boards, blogs. Entertainment was produced during live broadcasting. Sting IMHO was directed against those parts in the hoax that were not "alleged".
There's a reason for each and every participant that he/she could be target of a sting.
Court system , the Superior Court as well as the Californian Judges on a separate privileged payroll have seen scandals.
The Sheriff could be a target. The coroner. The media. The media. The witnesses - medical research specialists faking their studies for $$$ but influencing drug production and consumption on a worldwide scale.
We discussed that Mr. Walgren, Ms. Brazil, the defense and Judge Pastor must be in due to their performances.
We did not see the jury though. The jury as a court element as such might be a sting target - how justice is being served in the U.S. Prison conditions might be a target. Political influences behind the curtains. $$$ influences behind the curtains. Media influence behind the curtains. I think the list could go on and we still would find reasons why the CRM trial was a potential sting.
TMZ's article about the jury going down the toilet could be an indication that the jury was a target.
However, we noticed that we were missing witnesses who we thought being important but who were not heard.
There were obvious mistakes in admitting evidence to be discussed at the trial. So the basis for a decision was not sound. One could argue that of course limitations do not allow to hear everybody and take every detail into account when deciding on a verdict (or on an " individual and personal" judgement).
And this is taking the trial to an educational level IMHO, making US the sting target (on the artistic sting level, aside from the criminal sting level).
Point is that whatever we as human beings do or don't do, acknowledge, approve or dismiss - it will always be imperfect.
Only God will judge us on a perfect level.
That's why we heard Judge Pastor's ethical speech in the end.
That's why Lady Katherine stated that "justice was served".
It was proven in all transparency that the human nature "justice" system that is - is imperfect and not to be trusted.
Still, I remember the yellers and screamers and whoopla partythrowers express that exactly this verdict was the only one that was the right one. Boom.
Add. as I just read bec's last post.
Michael's SUVs did not carry regular number plates but state agency number plates.
If that is an indication that he was considered being a VIP VIP, then I'd consider his phones and cars to be well protected against wiretapping - especially since the Pellicano experiences.
This was in the making for 20 years.
Someone who is falsely accused and undergoes such a horror trip as in the two allegation cases will not leave nothing to coincidence. Michael might even have studied law himself to find a better and clearer view of where to go with this project.
In the beginning I asked myself why for heaven's sake he would ever return to California.
Answer: it's there where injustice was brought to his life and it's there where he knew best how to get them initiators and nail them down.
I cannot see any reason to have to leave the state of California for the hoax, except personal, individual reasons for breathing different air.
Post by: Andrea on November 05, 2012, 12:48:31 PM
Maybe he did just go to Neverland (after UCLA Live MJ scenario). Does anyone remember how shortly after June 25th, the family was supposedly trying to decide what to do about some sort of public memorial and for a day or two there, it was reported that MJ's body would be going to Neverland and would be displayed for fans? Obviously that never happened and I remember thinking that would be really weird if it did. But maybe it was a tease - MJ is at Neverland!
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 05, 2012, 12:50:29 PM
Post by: bec on November 05, 2012, 01:25:05 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 05, 2012, 01:42:14 PM
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/30/concrete-evidence-found-at-neverland/
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/30/neverland-reps-watch-out-santa-barbara/
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/30/jacksons-body-to-return-to-neverland/
Post by: ellyd on November 05, 2012, 01:42:44 PM
6/30/2009 6:39 PM PDT BY TMZ STAFF
Concrete Evidence Found at Neverland
A shipment of concrete was just delivered to the Neverland Ranch.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/06/30/0630_neverland_cement_ex-1.jpg)
We saw the concrete truck drive onto the property. A rep from the construction company told us they got a call today for 32,000 pounds of the hard stuff -- for what, we're not sure ... but it's certainly interesting ...
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/30/concrete-evidence-found-at-neverland/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/30/concrete-evidence-found-at-neverland/)
Post by: paula-c on November 05, 2012, 01:58:08 PM
If FBI is in, things can be arranged also at an airport.
It's a matter of checking in with the right people and VIP line.
There's more people flying across the continent or beyond that have not been checked on a regular level.
Na, the question is WHY would MJ have to leave.
Potential reasons:
1) to avoid any risk / to not endanger the foreseen outcome e.g.
2) there's no need for him to be present
e.g. if
- tasks are 100% assigned to a co- / vice-director
- tasks don't need any of HIS supervision
- tasks will be executed as foreseen anyway
- he has no live influence on what happens in case the script is not being followed.
I`d think that somebody "fit for the job" of executive supervision engaged in taking the key position of the team, making it feasible for MJ to get out of any focal point of present tense the moment the world concentrated their apperception of MJ becoming "all of a sudden" and then being - accepted or not - past.
Time warp of the finest.
FBI taking over from the moment the ambulance left, steering the complete UCLA chapter up to coroner garage entry would explain that MJ could be elsewhere and did not need to be present.
TS said that court was a little bit of everything: hoax, sting, entertainment.
Hoax court is manifested many times in videos, boards, blogs. Entertainment was produced during live broadcasting. Sting IMHO was directed against those parts in the hoax that were not "alleged".
There's a reason for each and every participant that he/she could be target of a sting.
Court system , the Superior Court as well as the Californian Judges on a separate privileged payroll have seen scandals.
The Sheriff could be a target. The coroner. The media. The media. The witnesses - medical research specialists faking their studies for $$$ but influencing drug production and consumption on a worldwide scale.
We discussed that Mr. Walgren, Ms. Brazil, the defense and Judge Pastor must be in due to their performances.
We did not see the jury though. The jury as a court element as such might be a sting target - how justice is being served in the U.S. Prison conditions might be a target. Political influences behind the curtains. $$$ influences behind the curtains. Media influence behind the curtains. I think the list could go on and we still would find reasons why the CRM trial was a potential sting.
TMZ's article about the jury going down the toilet could be an indication that the jury was a target.
However, we noticed that we were missing witnesses who we thought being important but who were not heard.
There were obvious mistakes in admitting evidence to be discussed at the trial. So the basis for a decision was not sound. One could argue that of course limitations do not allow to hear everybody and take every detail into account when deciding on a verdict (or on an " individual and personal" judgement).
And this is taking the trial to an educational level IMHO, making US the sting target (on the artistic sting level, aside from the criminal sting level).
Point is that whatever we as human beings do or don't do, acknowledge, approve or dismiss - it will always be imperfect.
Only God will judge us on a perfect level.
That's why we heard Judge Pastor's ethical speech in the end.
That's why Lady Katherine stated that "justice was served".
It was proven in all transparency that the human nature "justice" system that is - is imperfect and not to be trusted.
Still, I remember the yellers and screamers and whoopla partythrowers express that exactly this verdict was the only one that was the right one. Boom.
Add. as I just read bec's last post.
Michael's SUVs did not carry regular number plates but state agency number plates.
If that is an indication that he was considered being a VIP VIP, then I'd consider his phones and cars to be well protected against wiretapping - especially since the Pellicano experiences.
This was in the making for 20 years.
Someone who is falsely accused and undergoes such a horror trip as in the two allegation cases will not leave nothing to coincidence. Michael might even have studied law himself to find a better and clearer view of where to go with this project.
In the beginning I asked myself why for heaven's sake he would ever return to California.
Answer: it's there where injustice was brought to his life and it's there where he knew best how to get them initiators and nail them down.
I cannot see any reason to have to leave the state of California for the hoax, except personal, individual reasons for breathing different air.
But if the FBI, the CIA or the NASA are involved in this is not possible that all those controls that there in the airport they can be ignored?....If i really thought, come one the man simulate his death, if it is true that he left for the airport I don't see anything strange in that. :icon_geek:
Post by: SimPattyK on November 05, 2012, 02:06:22 PM
Regarding @It'sHer, I saw you keep asking about her... I think you should write her a pm :icon_e_wink: she had been busy, she had some personal problems lately... I'm sure she's around here and she'll come back when she's ready.
WoW! TS put FIRE on this thread! OMG! I missed some action lately!! LOVE it!! :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce:
TS love youuuuuuu :bearhug:
I need to catch up with what you guys wrote here :woohoo2:
Nice TS...21 posts in a day, well done.Youpiii (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/yahoo-supercontent.gif) Yeepeedeeeeee (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/U_JUMP%7E1.GIF) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/saute-et-tourne.gif) :icon_bounce: :woohoo2: (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/yaisse1.gif)
Post by: SimPattyK on November 05, 2012, 02:15:18 PM
QuoteCURLS: " ... I'll hazard a guess that the purpose of TS's little exercise is to show that Murray's trial was NOT entertainment. ..."
---> TS: bravo
MJonMind: " ... If this trial was real, it really shows what a joke then is the whole legal system. ..."
---> TS: bravo
MJonMind: " ... So I would say in answer to TS question, that yes “alleged” covers them, or cancels out what was said in the verdict of 'guilty'.
So would that mean that if there really exists a Dr. Murray, that ]he really wasn’t in jail because his conviction was cancelled/nullified?
And the jury was flushed down the toilet for calling him guilty.Jury on trial. ...
---> TS: bravo
If "bravo" means "yes, it's true", then in conclusion: the trial was a sting operation, most probably pulled out with the help of the police/FBI ! Therefore, everything we saw, was part real , part fake (HOAX)! And the characters were part actors (performing their role), part unaware people (being supervised by the mastermind behind the curtain)!
What we need to find out now is who EXACTLY were the actors and who were the people being stung! loll :icon_lol:
[...] Which means that the court was BOTH hoax court, and sting court! (Ooops, did I spill the beans?)
:icon_bounce: :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce:
Post by: bec on November 05, 2012, 02:20:02 PM
But yeah, concrete evidence they say?
Post by: wishingstar on November 05, 2012, 02:26:22 PM
how could it be delayed from bad weather at LAX though? It was a bright sunny day.....or at least the day we "saw" was, lol......
I remember bringing up the weather on June 25th....I'll go looking for it. I think we are getting close to knowing something
more definite.
@Sim....Guadalajara, Guadalajara ......... reminds me of Elvis : )
:bearhug:
Blessings!
Post by: suspicious mind on November 05, 2012, 02:32:36 PM
Hmmm, interesting.
I remember when Murray got handcuffed (as Michael did get handcuffed being an innocent man...) when the jury decided that Murray was guilty.
Please refresh my mind: why did Michael get handcuffed back then? He never got a "guilty" veredict as far as we know.
And again, what about the man who that night came or left in a car and looked right to the surveilance camera? :icon_e_confused:
i take it there is no place where this tape can be found for keeping to examine it or we would have it already.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 05, 2012, 03:29:12 PM
@paula-c....thanks for posting the flights stuff again....it's apparent something took off for Guadalajara, Mexico........OMG! Today all I can comment is this :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce: jump for joy and the music helps me too lmao :icon_lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp5CCJxCenw
how could it be delayed from bad weather at LAX though? It was a bright sunny day.....or at least the day we "saw" was, lol......
I remember bringing up the weather on June 25th....I'll go looking for it. I think we are getting close to knowing something
more definite.
@Sim....Guadalajara, Guadalajara ......... reminds me of Elvis : )
:bearhug:
Blessings!
Post by: MJonmind on November 05, 2012, 04:48:12 PM
Cool Elvis connection! Did MJ have a romanic rendezvous down there or something! :animal0017: :icon_lol:
Quote
Guadalajara (In English!!!)
Guadalajara, Guadalajara... Guadalajara, Guadalajara
You have the provincial soul You smell of clean early rose
Bird of fresh rockrose of rio to Is thousand palomos marries rio
Guadalajara, Guadalajara Sabes to pure wet earth
Aye aye aye aye aye aye, aye aye aye, aye aye aye!
Aye distant colomitos....aye!!!..ojitos of water brothers
Aye unforgettable, unforgettable colomitos like the afternoons In which rain, DES of the hill, to go us towards, until Zapopam
AYE! misermano..Aye-aye-aye... Mexican...
Aye unforgettable, unforgettable colomitos like the afternoons In which rain, DES of the hill, to go us towards, until Zapopam
Guadalajara, Guadalajara...Guadalajara..Guadalajara
http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23649
Thanks Paula for the LAX charts, they look vaguely familiar from way back in 09!
UYI, oh of course I love your posts, I was just hinting that maybe you two, were 2 peas in a pod in style, ya know what I mean! :icon_lol:
MissG
Quote
Please refresh my mind: why did Michael get handcuffed back then? He never got a "guilty" veredict as far as we know.It's sickening to note that he was always treated like a convicted criminal from day 1, when it was only "allegations", which directly led to his not being innocent in the minds of the public, even after the official "not guilty". Many movies on this theme.
Curls
Quote
All the court talk reminds me of something that's often run through my mind - people here have often expressed the belief that MJ is in full control of everything, but I sometimes wonder if he just set the ball rolling with his 'death', and he's been watching events pan out the same as the rest of us with regard to the trial etc? Sort of like - I'll pretend to die, leave lots of clues that it's a hoax and just sit back and see how far the system will take this thing without any real concrete evidence that I'm even dead. Just a thought!Interesting!
Andrea
Quote
And IF TPTB were after him/suspected what he was doing, what would stop them from intercepting his flight or waiting for him when he landed? What if something happened to the plane?Yep...
Bec, loved your reasoning. And it seems to me that the whole Airport risk was done simply to add yet another element of complexity and ‘risk’ to the hoax, all part of the many reasons why this is “an adventure”, “talent like you‘ve never seen before”.
Ellyd, loved your post on the grand level and inclusiveness of what all the sting covers. This is huge, historical, and like TS said, "in fact it doesn't get any bigger"!
You guys have amazing memories, and reasoning abilities!!
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 05, 2012, 05:02:01 PM
... JJ's slip up was there as a decoy, he put it in our minds and we assumed MJ went to the airport. ...
If the family is giving misleading hoax clues, then we might as well believe that they are just playing games with us and MJ is dead. Also, many hoaxers already believed that MJ flew out of LAX, months before Jermaine gave this clue. So that belief was not based on Jermaine’s “airport” slip of the lip; instead, Jermaine's statement was confirmation.
Quotes from TS in 'TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder « on: March 14, 2010, 12:44:16 PM »
TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof of Hoax, Not Murder: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,7194.msg116959.html#msg116959
Quote
4-37: I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Quote
4-43
In the interview with the “airport” slip-up, Jermaine said: “... it’s all gonna come out. It’s all gonna unfold.” {http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd0SoaOe-cs}. So this is what we need to be waiting for; and giving up before that time is premature. “And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31).
Quote
Do I need to give any more hints? I think I’ve said enough already. Besides, you want some surprises left for after Bamsday, don’t you?http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,7194.0.html
Of course we do :icon_e_biggrin: otherwise there wouldn't be a Bamsday! :bearhug: @ TS
Post by: ashprak247 on November 05, 2012, 05:17:42 PM
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
4-39. Piece by Piece Return, Versus Bamsday
If you search through TIAI Revealed, Parts 1-9; and also TIAI Updates, #1 - #3, you will find that I repeatedly used the word “return”, but only used the word “bam” about six times—and when I did use “bam”, I was merely referring generally to the statement at the end of TII (but not discussing the meaning of “bam”, when or what it is about, etc). Also, I never once use the term “bamsday” (not until this update).
Since this update is about timing, the time has come for me to discuss the “bam”; and also the differences between the “return” and the “bam”. The “return” is a process, which can be short or long, depending on several factors; regardless of whether or not the return is short, the “bam” is very abrupt—and marks the end of the return process. The fact that “bam” is abrupt should be obvious—based on the word itself, based on MJ’s usage of the word in context, and based on the audio and visual imagery that is very abrupt on Jack5ons “coming soon” website {http://http://www.5brothersenterprises.com/}.
The return, on the other hand, is not necessarily abrupt. There are a few things in TII which indicate that the return might not be abrupt. During Light Man, it says: “... and piece by piece by piece by piece [return process], MJ is revealed, until he jumps out [bam!], and on Michael’s command, we begin.” {TII DVD, Main Movie, text from subtitle; at 3:43}
In Staging the Return (as well as in the main movie), you can see a little of MJ before he comes out of the spider. “Then Michael was gonna come out and be revealed underneath the black widow.” {TII DVD, Staging the Return, The Adventure Begins, text from subtitle; at 19:50}.
And the bam statement itself is very clear: “Let me bathe in my own time when I come back in. I’m gonna button my shirt or jacket or whatever it is. I’m gonna look around a little bit, play with them. Snap my fingers maybe, then bam!” {TII DVD, Main Movie, text from subtitle; at 1:49:45}
Do you feel like MJ has been “playing with them” recently? If so, it means we are in the return process. You see, the return is when things go beyond just clues for hoax believers; it is when the public sees things that just don’t add up with the official story. Since MJ is in control: he could have several pieces revealed all in one day; or he could slow the process down, and do it over a longer period of time (until people start getting it)—in either case, the return would end with the bam (the final and ultimate revelation that MJ is alive).
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 05, 2012, 06:05:53 PM
TMZ made it very clear:I'm not sure why but the guy in this picture kind of reminds me of Kenny directing something. Now where did I leave that straight jacket??
6/30/2009 6:39 PM PDT BY TMZ STAFF
Concrete Evidence Found at Neverland
A shipment of concrete was just delivered to the Neverland Ranch.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/06/30/0630_neverland_cement_ex-1.jpg)
We saw the concrete truck drive onto the property. A rep from the construction company told us they got a call today for 32,000 pounds of the hard stuff -- for what, we're not sure ... but it's certainly interesting ...
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/30/concrete-evidence-found-at-neverland/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/30/concrete-evidence-found-at-neverland/)
Post by: Adi on November 05, 2012, 06:27:04 PM
If MJ stayed then I doubt he remained at Carolwood. I think that would have been way too risky if there really was a sting operation underway. Some of the police officers etc investigating would not have been in the know, so if they turned up at Carolwood looking for evidence and found MJ hiding.......well ya' know it just looks a bit dodgy in terms of hoax/sting success! :icon_lol:
All I know is that I really can't come to any firm conclusion as to how June 25th 2009 went down because I wasn't there with the "insiders" running the whole day....whether he left LA, whether he went to UCLA disguised etc. I think we saw only what MJ wanted us to see. I have some strong opinions about what took place based on what we have been shown, told and clues from the family, but those opinions could be way off what actually occurred. I have been given bits and pieces of info and then filled in the gaps in my head.
Anyway - this thread is great......can't tell if we are getting anywhere with it or not, but still enjoying it!
PS - also that TMZ concrete evidence story...wasn't there also a story around the same time about porta-loos being delivered there too? (or am I imagining that too?)
Post by: Andrea on November 05, 2012, 06:33:48 PM
Seems the potty humor began very early in the hoax.
Post by: Adi on November 05, 2012, 06:46:21 PM
Adi - yep about the port-a-potty story from TMZ. http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/neverland-ranch-porta-potty/
Seems the potty humor began very early in the hoax.
hahaha :LolLolLolLol:
that's the one...thanks Andrea for finding it...I was just trying to search for it and it was taking me ages (I was finding some very odd pages in the meantime)
Concrete evidence versus a load of crap evidence :icon_cool:
Post by: Andrea on November 05, 2012, 07:02:19 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIg9mkBfk98&feature=fvwrel[/youtube]
Is it me or does action-hero stunt-man seem to be filming the crowds below? Is that black thing a camera or something else? If it's a camera, I can't wait to see the movie! Perhaps we'll even get to see a close-up of the 'body' sitting up.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 05, 2012, 07:41:13 PM
I'm sure TS didn't ask about that movie for nothing....there must be something very interesting about it and it's very frustrating that I can't find or guess what movie is that.
:icon_e_sad:
There were some movies relevant for this hoax, starting with The court of Last resort, then Gilda and The Illusionist and V for Vendetta and 2012. TS can't you please narrow the research area and give us some hints?
Unfortunately, I am not able to narrow the search. Personally, I have not seen every movie that has ever been made; but I tend to doubt that anyone will find "alleged" in a verdict in ANY movie (or any other real court case, for that matter). So far, nobody on this thread has reported finding even one such case. Therefore, we must now ask WHY was the word "alleged" used--if indeed it is strictly hoax court, entertainment movie only, and not a real sting in a real court case (with some hoax elements and clues, to avoid entrapment, etc)?
@Gina-
Don't be sad girl. You gave it a good try. I do hope all is well for you and your family. :bearhug:
@TS... I was just alerted to your finishing up the level. lmao. I had no clue. I haven't even looked in on the hoax in a long time. I was over at the hoax book side sayin' Hi to some friends and was told this was going Down! It's not nice to gloat! So I won't! Sting! haha. Yes avoidin' entrapment. I just wanna know about the body used...ETA: I mean at the house (the one the EMT's actually handled)...(real or not)! :fresse:
:smiley_abuv: :th_bravo: :icon_rr:
Post by: paula-c on November 05, 2012, 07:44:14 PM
I just saw something I'd never noticed before. This is footage of the helicopter leaving UCLA on June 25th.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIg9mkBfk98&feature=fvwrel[/youtube]
Is it me or does action-hero stunt-man seem to be filming the crowds below? Is that black thing a camera or something else? If it's a camera, I can't wait to see the movie! Perhaps we'll even get to see a close-up of the 'body' sitting up.
In the helicopter?
(http://www.channelnewsasia.com/imagegallery/gallery/phpAu6qF0.jpg)
(http://media.nowpublic.net/images//fb/1/fb1cd3dcfca0e25d92669e81e1a8c3c1.jpg)
Post by: mindseye on November 05, 2012, 07:48:07 PM
Actually - yeah......a life like dummy could have sufficed for an "alleged" victim dying on an "alleged" date.
Well we do know there may have been a dummy used at some point in the preparation of this hoax...
(http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/218923/80678247.jpg)
I agree, it was a dummy. Just remembering in Front's thread, "Who you callin' a dummy?" :icon_lol:
He could have left the night before to another local location... I thought maybe he disguised himself as one of the bodyguards at the ambulance, but after reading TS today and posts, I don't think he was at the hospital.
And I agree with Bec - I don't believe he was on a plane or at an airport, with security etc. that wouldn't make sense. JJ's slip up was confirmation that he got away, escaped under the radar. Remembering one of his first interviews - mentions the song he and Michael were singing at the last family gathering... 'baby don't make me fly away, gonna stay, love today'.
Maybe TS is pointing how MJ thought out every possibility to pull off the illusion. So we're left wondering what was planned vs not planned and expected vs not expected?
Post by: Andrea on November 05, 2012, 08:06:27 PM
I just saw something I'd never noticed before. This is footage of the helicopter leaving UCLA on June 25th.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIg9mkBfk98&feature=fvwrel[/youtube]
Is it me or does action-hero stunt-man seem to be filming the crowds below? Is that black thing a camera or something else? If it's a camera, I can't wait to see the movie! Perhaps we'll even get to see a close-up of the 'body' sitting up.
In the helicopter?
(http://www.channelnewsasia.com/imagegallery/gallery/phpAu6qF0.jpg)
(http://media.nowpublic.net/images//fb/1/fb1cd3dcfca0e25d92669e81e1a8c3c1.jpg)
What is that black attachment that's over the helicopter door? Is it a camera? Does anyone know or has this already been determined?
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 05, 2012, 08:11:56 PM
TSQuoteBut I'm wanting to put this conclusion on a more solid basis, than has been done before, in order to complete Level 7 solidly.
So it’s etched in stone then (it'd be nice finally :fresse:), MJ left in the jet hours before Murray ‘went to the bathroom’. Wherever he went, Bahrain or countless options, he was in communication with the ‘team members’. Guessing it had to have been a hospice patient who stayed at the house perhaps weeks before already, and Murray or someone other qualified, perhaps even had him all hooked up for propofol to convince bodyguards, who were NEVER allowed upstairs. In Elvis’ case they did facial surgeries to help the patient look like Elvis. Remember the MJ autopsy said the guy had tattooed eye-liners, lips, hair-line, etc. EMT and everyone at UCLA was so concerned to just cover their own ass, they didn’t wonder about odd things, same as at the trial. I would think real lawyers would have jumped right up and cried ‘foul’ after hearing ‘alleged’ read, but perhaps it shows the utter respect for authority they all have, and not thinking for themselves. How long MJ would need to stay away from LA, is the next question, depending on if he was there in person at the memorial, etc.
So I’m guessing from the TMZ naked men story, that the naked truth was that there were 18 ‘dreamteamers’ that pulled this hoax all off, including MJ. :icon_e_smile:
:LolLolLolLol:
@MJonline/MJonmind-
( I 4got some peeps might not know about ur nick name girl, lol )
Happy Birthday woman!
:multiplespotting: :bearhug:
Post by: angelbabe1 on November 05, 2012, 08:32:44 PM
Post by: mindseye on November 05, 2012, 08:49:52 PM
What is that black attachment that's over the helicopter door? Is it a camera? Does anyone know or has this already been determined?
Looks like something that lifts attachments from below.
This is a video of the helicopter used to transfer mj.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuKB0hRiE5g[/youtube]
Post by: Andrea on November 05, 2012, 08:55:26 PM
What is that black attachment that's over the helicopter door? Is it a camera? Does anyone know or has this already been determined?
Looks like something that lifts attachments from below.
This is a video of the helicopter used to transfer mj.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuKB0hRiE5g[/youtube]
Attachments like a camera? :icon_lol:
It's hard to tell what it is exactly.
Post by: Adi on November 05, 2012, 09:21:47 PM
What is that black attachment that's over the helicopter door? Is it a camera? Does anyone know or has this already been determined?
Looks like something that lifts attachments from below.
This is a video of the helicopter used to transfer mj.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuKB0hRiE5g[/youtube]
Attachments like a camera? :icon_lol:
It's hard to tell what it is exactly.
Not sure you are talking about the black thingy attached above the side door? If so, my guess is that it is a spotlight for searching.....it is a rescue helicopter so I guess they use it for searching for people at night perhaps lost in the ocean or forests and other similar things.
EDIT: yeah - actually it could also be a winch to lift things.....
Post by: ellyd on November 06, 2012, 01:01:26 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpsauI7kX78&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpsauI7kX78&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpsauI7kX78&feature=related)
I just died laughing about the cosy brown porta-potties, delivered to us via AP ...
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/neverland-ranch-porta-potty/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/neverland-ranch-porta-potty/)
These early indications almost make SOTT a plausible alias for sneaking in.
Post by: MJonmind on November 06, 2012, 01:49:31 AM
TS
Quote
Besides, you want some surprises left for after Bamsday, don’t you?I love the sound of that! Sometimes I get afraid for all the bad things possibly coming down the pike, warnings from the Bible and EOW talk. Especially since TS even said we 'wouldn't grow old unless we were already'. :errrr: :icon_e_confused:
Im_convinced, thank you! And I love my nickname because it awesome confirmation! :Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile
Blessings!
Post by: curls on November 06, 2012, 02:18:01 AM
... Which means that the court was BOTH hoax court, and sting court! (Ooops, did I spill the beans?)
Of course that concept is not entirely new; several have already mentioned it. But I'm wanting to put this conclusion on a more solid basis, than has been done before, in order to complete Level 7 solidly.
:compute:
Ok, so in order to work out who or what is the subject of this possible sting, I think we should be looking more closely, as TS suggested in another post from his marathon session, at 'what is not alleged' in court - the parts that didn't relate directly to MJ's 'manslaughter' and June 25th and could therefore be 'real'.
For starters, what about the ease with which Murray was apparently able to obtain excessive quantities of drugs, even having them delivered to a private home, not even a medical address?
Have to go to work now, but maybe others would like to expand the list of 'what is not alleged' and help TS get this level wrapped up!
Post by: nick_93 on November 06, 2012, 05:28:42 AM
I agree with Bec. To me, I don't see any need for MJ to be anywhere else on that day apart from UCLA. If he were to travel interstate or internationally it'd be too risky in case something went wrong. With him being at UCLA, MJ could have complete control over everything and watch his plan work to perfection. The number of risks star to multiply the more you complicate things and by MJ not being on the scene, I feel things would become more complicated. If he's to be the director e.g. Liberian Girl video then it makes perfect sense for him to be running the show and in control right from what is in front of him, not via other forms of communication, adding risk for exposure from an unwanted party. And we all know what prankster MJ is, so I'm sure he would've loved nothing more to than to have everyone in the palm of his hand, pulling off such a thrilling (pun I know) hoax.
I'm probably not adding anything new to the discussion but you've all helped me to be able to think about all the different avenues in this so thanks!
:th_bravo:
Post by: Jos on November 06, 2012, 05:52:48 AM
Also I think you can use someone's / an twitter account to send cryptic signs to the people who are in.
For example, last week there was a report on Dutch television, about a composer (don't know who it was) who's used twitter to send songs to an orchestra.
He send a tweet with (for example): AAAaGGg and so on. The reciever knew what it was and made it to a real song.
I can see Michael using Paris' twitter for example, to write stuff that for "normal people" is just some strange writing, but is infact an direction for the people who are in on this hoax.
I also find it to risky to take an airplane at June 25.
If he did fly with the Mexicana A318 plane, which is an commercial airplane, he must have had an fake ID and indeed that would be an Federal Crime.
Maybe, we can look at the video material again which was aired on June 25th?
I think, Michael as a prankster, must be - in some sort of disquise- on one of the video's, just for the fun of it.
I don't think he wasn't on television at all at that day. For what I've learned about him, that isn't Michael-ish.
Post by: curls on November 06, 2012, 06:25:27 AM
Post by: curls on November 06, 2012, 07:12:40 AM
........ At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Following on from the ambulance example, and not changing anything unless it was needed to accomplish the hoax - here I am still, coming to the conclusion that MJ went in that ambulance to UCLA - only thing changed from the no-hoax scenario is that he wasn't dead! And that didn't matter because paramedics and key hospital staff must have been in on it anyway, and an alive MJ who can play dead if needs be is far less risky than dummies, corpses etc and all the problems of getting hold of and disposing of that they bring.
I'm sorry TS, convince me otherwise!
Post by: wishingstar on November 06, 2012, 07:49:38 AM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,14929.msg249490.html#msg249490
One more thing.....
this video that has been posted a lot here.....if you watch really closely, at :18 and :21 the video feed/angle changes slightly....like an edit. It's from HollywoodTV (which I have always held suspect)...how many cameras did they have there, and why the need for an edit splice? Did the helicopters change?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIg9mkBfk98&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Hope you are all off to a great Tuesday!
Blessings & LOVE
Post by: BeTheChange on November 06, 2012, 07:51:49 AM
Indeed, remember how everyone who ever worked with him remarks about how 'hands-on' MJ is with all his work.
True...but it seems there are exceptions. If we are to believe what was said in the Bad25 docu, and funny enough about Liberian Girl....Mike didn't even want to be there. He had to be convinced to even make an appearance (i.e. he was NOT on the set directing nor behind the 'actual' camera while they were filming). He agreed to show up to shoot that one scene with him behind a camera....and did so while the car engine was still running lol....he was in and out as fast as he could be. From what I've read, he was involved in the editing of the footage afterwards.
Yet, Liberian Girl HAS been a background theme throughout this whole thing....and the 'illusion' of it, is that he WAS there shooting the whole thing but really wasn't. Maybe, with the hoax, it's been the reverse?
... I'm not even sure that the levels (especially Level 7) were ever meant to lead us to answers....perhaps they were meant to fine-tune our questions/methods.
Some of both.
I think we've done a great job of the latter...hopefully the former will soon come through.
(http://www.wpclipart.com/time/calendar/11_November/calendar_November_29.png)
Time's a tickin' :icon_albino:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Andrea on November 06, 2012, 08:32:43 AM
........ At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Following on from the ambulance example, and not changing anything unless it was needed to accomplish the hoax - here I am still, coming to the conclusion that MJ went in that ambulance to UCLA - only thing changed from the no-hoax scenario is that he wasn't dead! And that didn't matter because paramedics and key hospital staff must have been in on it anyway, and an alive MJ who can play dead if needs be is far less risky than dummies, corpses etc and all the problems of getting hold of and disposing of that they bring.
I'm sorry TS, convince me otherwise!
Yep, I agree! MJ was there. The same people had to be in on it anyways and the key hospital people would've been expecting him and had the area he arrived at cleared of anybody who didn't need to be there. The fire alarm was pulled and reports that MJ had gone into cardiac arrest had been published which created the crowds and chaos in the streets outside the hospital. There was so much going on that it would be relatively easy for MJ to carry out his plan. There are too many factors involved with MJ flying away that morning and I don't think he would want to miss the action - it's his hoax afterall and what better way to trick everyone then to do it right in front of their eyes. The only thing I'm not sure of is if he was on the stretcher or around it.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 06, 2012, 10:17:45 AM
Speaking of Kai, there was an interview she did with the Today Show where she said that Murray ran into the kitchen screaming to go get Prince and security. However, in her court testimony to Brazil, I believe, she first said that Murray did enter the kitchen, screaming, etc. Then she later changes that testimony & says that he never came all the way down the stairs but leaned over the rails demanding she get Prince and Security. So did he come into the kitchen or did he stop & lean over the rail? Just an observation that might not amount to a hill of beans, but I remember it vividly. Would it make any difference where Murray was when he called out or not? I don’t know. It’s just a discrepancy that stays in my mind.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 06, 2012, 11:24:49 AM
I guess I’m not that convincible :icon_e_confused: that MJ was there then or even that he ever came back to Carolwood at all after that last rehearsal. If he had eaten his prepared soup from the night before, which Kai admitted had not been touched I might be a little swayed. Neither did he drink his breakfast juices with the children. But I’m still listening with an open mind. :smiley_abuv:
Speaking of Kai, there was an interview she did with the Today Show where she said that Murray ran into the kitchen screaming to go get Prince and security. However, in her court testimony to Brazil, I believe, she first said that Murray did enter the kitchen, screaming, etc. Then she later changes that testimony & says that he never came all the way down the stairs but leaned over the rails demanding she get Prince and Security. So did he come into the kitchen or did he stop & lean over the rail? Just an observation that might not amount to a hill of beans, but I remember it vividly. Would it make any difference where Murray was when he called out or not? I don’t know. It’s just a discrepancy that stays in my mind.
Me neither! I "ran with" the sting court N real cadaver theory... lmao, I even have CONVINCED in my username. :icon_e_wink:
:judge-smiley: :icon_geek:
Post by: bec on November 06, 2012, 11:46:52 AM
... Which means that the court was BOTH hoax court, and sting court! (Ooops, did I spill the beans?)
Of course that concept is not entirely new; several have already mentioned it. But I'm wanting to put this conclusion on a more solid basis, than has been done before, in order to complete Level 7 solidly.
:compute:
Ok, so in order to work out who or what is the subject of this possible sting, I think we should be looking more closely, as TS suggested in another post from his marathon session, at 'what is not alleged' in court - the parts that didn't relate directly to MJ's 'manslaughter' and June 25th and could therefore be 'real'.
For starters, what about the ease with which Murray was apparently able to obtain excessive quantities of drugs, even having them delivered to a private home, not even a medical address?
Have to go to work now, but maybe others would like to expand the list of 'what is not alleged' and help TS get this level wrapped up!
Remember, Propofol isn't a drug; it isn't controlled, it isn't a narcotic, and it isn't illegal to obtain, have, use, or distribute. It's an anesthetic, and it is considered medical supply, just like gloves, needles, syringes, catheters, saline, sutures, etc.
Murray was charged with one count of involuntary mans.laughter because there was simply nothing else to charge him with. That includes his use and possession of Propofol, which was not disputed.
TS has already admitted this is a sting on the media and the fans. I see no evidence as of yet to conclude there are other subjects or persons being targeted as an additional sting. And the hour grows late.
I'm pretty sure WE prevent entrapment being claimed by both the media and the fans upon bamsday. Just us being here, laying out our theories and evidence supporting those theories are proof that anyone could figure out the truth in this case if properly motivated.
I think it is that simple because the evidence available thus far suggests as such.
Post by: bec on November 06, 2012, 11:49:55 AM
Quote
Michael Jackson
Quote of the Day: "I love experienced people. I love people who are phenomenally talented. I love people who’ve worked so hard and been so courageous and are the leaders in their fields. For me to meet somebody like that and learn from them and share words with them—to me that’s magic. To work together." (Interview Magazine, August 1982)
Like · · Share · 4,885249343 · 9 minutes ago ·
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 06, 2012, 12:00:49 PM
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 06, 2012, 12:23:32 PM
I remember the initial news reports saying Michael died from an overdose of Demerol and after a few days it was changed to propofol. I vaguely remember some discussion about the change being because Demerol is a controlled substance while propofol isn't. If Murray was giving Michael Demerol in a home setting that would have opened up a can of worms of legalities regarding where and how he obtained the Demerol among other things. I also remember listening to the song Morphine before the change where he sings about Demerol and a heart attack. I was like :o ???... Which means that the court was BOTH hoax court, and sting court! (Ooops, did I spill the beans?)
Of course that concept is not entirely new; several have already mentioned it. But I'm wanting to put this conclusion on a more solid basis, than has been done before, in order to complete Level 7 solidly.
:compute:
Ok, so in order to work out who or what is the subject of this possible sting, I think we should be looking more closely, as TS suggested in another post from his marathon session, at 'what is not alleged' in court - the parts that didn't relate directly to MJ's 'manslaughter' and June 25th and could therefore be 'real'.
For starters, what about the ease with which Murray was apparently able to obtain excessive quantities of drugs, even having them delivered to a private home, not even a medical address?
Have to go to work now, but maybe others would like to expand the list of 'what is not alleged' and help TS get this level wrapped up!
Remember, Propofol isn't a drug; it isn't controlled, it isn't a narcotic, and it isn't illegal to obtain, have, use, or distribute. It's an anesthetic, and it is considered medical supply, just like gloves, needles, syringes, catheters, saline, sutures, etc.
Murray was charged with one count of involuntary mans.laughter because there was simply nothing else to charge him with. That includes his use and possession of Propofol, which was not disputed.
TS has already admitted this is a sting on the media and the fans. I see no evidence as of yet to conclude there are other subjects or persons being targeted as an additional sting. And the hour grows late.
I'm pretty sure WE prevent entrapment being claimed by both the media and the fans upon bamsday. Just us being here, laying out our theories and evidence supporting those theories are proof that anyone could figure out the truth in this case if properly motivated.
I think it is that simple because the evidence available thus far suggests as such.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 06, 2012, 12:31:39 PM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=14260&start=25 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=14260&start=25)
Post by: paula-c on November 06, 2012, 01:18:11 PM
Regarding the plane that departed that morning, here’s a link to where it was discussed here briefly last year.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=14260&start=25 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=14260&start=25)
Quote
by hesouttamylife » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:44 pm
I thought I was losing it. Thanks for the vote of confidence. When you look back at things concerning Neverland it kindof adds up. The place went unkept for years. When Michael “died” for lack of a better word, there was a lot of disdain surrounding Neverland and Michael and the fans and the community where it’s located. It was in disrepair long enough for people to kind of lose hope that it would ever be what it once was. The neighborhood association was gung ho against anything Michael being there and fans put the possibility on a back burner. It was used for this and that over short spurts. Then we hear of all this concrete being delivered there. But for what? That story died for many. but never for me. Then there were these lavish affairs held and the gates by big shots. The gates had been stripped and the rides, gone. Michael had been erased. Now recently, the gates are back. There is talk of a Michael like venue becoming operational. WTF happened to those neighbors who had all bt sworn off anyting Michael? Did they ove or get bought out? Well low and behold, It is looking quite beautiful and ‘“ALIVE” again And most fans are of the opinion that Neverland is the absolute LAST PLACE Michael Jackson would ever want to be. It’s perfect. No one would look for him there because he said he never wanted to go there again. But isn’t that just the way. Michael always had an end to the means. He said it wasn’t home anymore. Possibly until all the bullshit was eradicated, it couldn’t be. I feel that is all about to come to a screeching halt. And guess what, It’s looking more and more like home to me.
Well, maybe Michael said that they would never return to Neverland with some "purpose"....In the future :icon_geek: :confused:
Post by: curls on November 06, 2012, 01:57:53 PM
Re: propofol - in light of the catastrophic events apparently resulting from it's uncontrolled, legal acquisition and use - maybe that should be re-assessed.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 06, 2012, 04:02:45 PM
@bec, so you are convinced the sting is ONLY against the media and fans? Could be - but did we need a full blown court case to achieve that? I'm trying to consider other subjects, you understand, in light of TS's recent posts! What did he mean by asking us to consider 'what is not alleged'?
Re: propofol - in light of the catastrophic events apparently resulting from it's uncontrolled, legal acquisition and use - maybe that should be re-assessed.
:th_bravo:
Woot woot! Keep goin' curls! :icon_bounce:
Post by: Andrea on November 06, 2012, 04:14:49 PM
@bec, so you are convinced the sting is ONLY against the media and fans? Could be - but did we need a full blown court case to achieve that? I'm trying to consider other subjects, you understand, in light of TS's recent posts! What did he mean by asking us to consider 'what is not alleged'?
Re: propofol - in light of the catastrophic events apparently resulting from it's uncontrolled, legal acquisition and use - maybe that should be re-assessed.
I've been wracking my brain too but apart from watching the entire trial again, I wouldn't know where to begin. We never really got past TS' sting level because we never came to a consensus as to who the sting would be against. There were many suggestions that would make sense but it never went beyond that. If the court case was both a sting and hoax court, then the court people (judge, attorneys) appeared to be in on it. The judge is a certainty imo, the prosecution too - example - they had the missing "N" in the "pronouced" slide. The defense - their proximity to Murray would make them in on it... So based on those few observations I would think that if there is a sting, the target is an outside agency/person(s).
Propofol is now a controlled substance, in at least some states, I just did a quick google search. So something did come of that.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 06, 2012, 04:29:59 PM
Rescue is what the LASD chopper serves for.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpsauI7kX78&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpsauI7kX78&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpsauI7kX78&feature=related)
I just died laughing about the cosy brown porta-potties, delivered to us via AP ...
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/neverland-ranch-porta-potty/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/neverland-ranch-porta-potty/)
These early indications almost make SOTT a plausible alias for sneaking in.
:thjajaja121: :elvis-1405:
lmao! Elvis "died" on the Loo! :compute:
:Michael_Jackson_smiley_by_red :moonwalk_:
Post by: wishingstar on November 06, 2012, 04:57:48 PM
Oh my foosballs....we can see only 7 of these things :thjajaja121:
really? I don't know which is worse, the fact that there are porta-potties in the
picture, or the fact that I just counted them. I digress.......vino please....BTC, ready the nuts, I mean filberts!
I'm on a roll...jeeze....I can't stop the potty humor...ugh....I am flush out of things to say.....
Blessings...... :fresse:
Post by: SimPattyK on November 06, 2012, 06:00:00 PM
______________________________________
IN on the hoax:
- the judge
- prosecution
- defense (& Murray , of course!! :icon_lol: )
- jury (maybe not in its entirety)
- Murray's girl friends :icon_lol:
- MJ's bodyguards,
- Kai Chase,
- Kenny Ortega
Parties being stung:
- all the witnesses for AEG
- other witnesses involved in music industry
- witnesses involved in pharmaceutical industry
- doctors
- the media (except TMZ :icon_lol: )
- the general public
- the fans
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 06, 2012, 06:09:40 PM
Post by: paula-c on November 06, 2012, 06:31:51 PM
Quote
Quote from: TS_comments on November 05, 2012, 03:32:38 PM
[...] Which means that the court was BOTH hoax court, and sting court! (Ooops, did I spill the beans?)
Here I go again
allegedly, that assumes or is suspected but not this demonstrated
Condemn a man for allegedly to kill Michael, allegedly a day, then the verdict is not secure is a allegedly, Murray was accused of a crime alleged :fresse:
Post by: Adi on November 06, 2012, 06:32:48 PM
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/07/01/0701_porta_potty_ap090630028729_ap-1.jpg)
Oh my foosballs....we can see only 7 of these things :thjajaja121:
really? I don't know which is worse, the fact that there are porta-potties in the
picture, or the fact that I just counted them. I digress.......vino please....BTC, ready the nuts, I mean filberts!
I'm on a roll...jeeze....I can't stop the potty humor...ugh....I am flush out of things to say.....
Blessings...... :fresse:
:LolLolLolLol: @ Wish...don't worry you aren't the only one who counted them.....so did I lol & I had a little chuckle when there were 7 of them :icon_lol:
Quote
Some of those remarks are crude. But getting to the pottys, were these for the Memorial Service? Seems to be a few of the fan mementos back there with them That’s not nice.
They were apparently delivered to Neverland (if you believe the story on TMZ that is) here is the story from July 1st 2009: http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/01/neverland-ranch-porta-potty/
There have been alot of toilet references throughout this hoax...... :icon_lol:
Post by: SimPattyK on November 06, 2012, 06:35:44 PM
[...]You are just BRILLIANT @MjonMIND! :th_bravo:
TS on Nov 28,11QuoteSo now I have given two strong points for MJ not going to the hospital. #1 It would be an unnecessary risk of MJ being bumped off, when the world thinks he’s already dead (even if this was a low risk, it was still a risk—and an unnecessary risk, at that). #2 Jermaine’s “airport” clue, plus the very early hoax reports, point to MJ going to the airport instead of the hospital. And I still have three more strong points on this, yet to come (total of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital)…So there’s a reason #5 to find apparently. I have no clue, but I’m just giving a kind of crazy possibility. I’m sure it’s not the one TS has in mind. Here's 'Elvis' again, explaining how his 'death' details took place at 2:09:09.
Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did. So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax. If MJ really died, this makes no sense… Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.
My fourth point, on MJ not going to the hospital, is the testimony of Sharon Sidney. She is one of the “stalker” fans, who was at Carolwood day and night; and she was there when the ambulance went to UCLA. Ben talks about her, and you can even see a still shot of her face {see 1:15,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44; compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBwcjfRkht0}... “She says, there were strange cars at Michael Jackson's mansion on the night of June 24th. She felt that something covert was taking place. ... She tells of how, at the hospital, she spoke with paramedic Blount, and how they both agreed that the person that was wheeled into the hospital was not Michael Jackson. Sharon is adamant that the patient wheeled into the emergency room was much shorter than Michael. She was very upset that paramedic Blount told a completely different story when he testified for the prosecution and detailed how he and his partner handled Michael's resuscitation efforts at Carolwood.”QuoteThe plan was for a DEA helicopter to pick me up. I was going to fly to Argentina, until things blew over. Then on to Kalamazo, Michigan. But the helicopter saw a television crew outside the gate and left. So I shimmied down the side of the house and walked into the pool house…Okay so maybe Elvis’ original plan was to fly out of there, but they went with plan B—waiting it out in the house till things blew over. Did MJ similarly have the at least stated plans to fly out (like Jermaine said) but actually stayed hidden either in that house or an insider’s place. Or did MJ perfect what went wrong for Elvis and actually fly outta town. Although, I remember from early days someone had possibly taken a pic of someone looking like MJ at Tito’s house in the window (anyone remember?), and reports said shortly after the “death” that the Encino property was being guarded all around like Fort Knox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rYu-P92ILDE
Just before ‘Elvis’ says the above he says his ‘death’ would be like:QuoteMaster comics #110, 'Captain Marvel Jr. and the Hidden Death', where Captain Marvel Jr. faked his own death to deceive his own enemies. Then he defeated them and came back as a hero. That was my way out.http://www.comics.org/issue/7949/cover/4/ I can't seem to find details on the comic story to see if CMJ flew out of his 'death' scene, if someone can find that, thanks. But I did find this interesting:
Captain Marvel Jr. from Wiki:QuoteCaptain Marvel Jr.'s alter-ego is Freddy Freeman, a crippled newsboy saved by Captain Marvel from the villainous Captain Nazi. Junior derives his powers from Captain Marvel himself, while the other Marvels derive their powers from the wizard Shazam. And lots more interesting details…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Marvel_Jr.
'Power of Shazam!' Remember Front’s post?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,5167.msg352400.html#msg352400
And of course MJ loved Marvel comics and wanted to buy it…
I know much of this has been discussed before, but maybe it can help for brainstorming...
Speaking of comics and Elvis & Michael's love for comics .... this is a montage I did not long ago ...
---> CLICK on it to see it in large format ---> (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/thumbs/mjelvinzn.jpg) (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/?v=mjelvinzn.jpg)
LINKS:
http://scheme9.blogspot.ro/2012/06/elvis-presley-other-king-of-comics.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2204438/Paris-Jackson-shares-dads-geek-hobby-spending-day-comic-book-convention.html#ixzz27IQVfewP
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/05/13/michael-jackson-talking-about-buying-marvel/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdN9vRKUf0Y
Post by: BeTheChange on November 06, 2012, 06:40:01 PM
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/07/01/0701_porta_potty_ap090630028729_ap-1.jpg)
Oh my foosballs....we can see only 7 of these things :thjajaja121:
really? I don't know which is worse, the fact that there are porta-potties in the
picture, or the fact that I just counted them. I digress.......vino please....BTC, ready the nuts, I mean filberts!
I'm on a roll...jeeze....I can't stop the potty humor...ugh....I am flush out of things to say.....
Blessings...... :fresse:
Lmao Wish :icon_lol:...we've been reduced to counting pottys LOL
No worries...I've got the wine and nuts on standby :icon_e_wink:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 06, 2012, 06:41:54 PM
@bec, so you are convinced the sting is ONLY against the media and fans? Could be - but did we need a full blown court case to achieve that? I'm trying to consider other subjects, you understand, in light of TS's recent posts! What did he mean by asking us to consider 'what is not alleged'?
Well I'm just taking into account the available information. I have seen nothing to indicate a sting other then on the media and the fans. MJ is pretty good at feeding us the hints n whispers, why would he be so mum about this part of his agenda? Why would he leave it only up to TS to spread the word? Even the Jackson family quit talking about conspiracy and the "real" murderer over a year ago. TS is really the only source for anything "sting" related, again, other then on the media or on the fans.
Forget a whole court case, did he need to full blown fake his death to run a sting operation on the media and the fans? So, I dunno, I think sure, MJ does everything big. The bigger the better, right? Seems to be the track record of the man in question.
I think speculation on an additional sting is just that, speculation. We have nothing else to go on and that makes me doubt that there is anything more to it then what we have already discovered. Anything other then fiction n a good story.
We have discussed this for... a year and a half? Probably longer. That's a long time to coast on just assumption and hypotheticals.
Of course there can be all sorts of stuff going on that we are not privy to. MJ lets us see and know only which he wants us to see and know. My mind is open about it, should more information come in, but it feels as though the hour grows late.
At this juncture, yes, I believe the sting is only on the fans and the media. Well, and the general public too.
I do think that we are being hoaxed as well, so I am always mindful of this potential. Not all of which we believe is true. Not all of which we are being led to believe is true either.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 06, 2012, 06:46:24 PM
Quote
Last March I was watching a TV program about Spanish people living in different countries, the country was Dubai and here is the video to show you what it could be a "clue" or not, what do you guys think?
#Invalid YouTube Link#
In the min 2.40 the lady says: MJ was here last week, this program was released last June 2009, and one of the Spanish people talking in the program said : I was married last October 6 months ago now, so I understand that she was married October 2008 and the program was recorded in April 2009 (6 months later) so now we know Michael was in Dubai in April 2009 so I don't think Michael was so sick and rehearsing for TII, it looks like he was looking for a place to hide, right?? IDK, Michael please if you are reading this don't be mad at me I might probably be wrong.
Sorry the video is blocked, if I find a new one I'll post it.
So going back to if Michael took a plane or not last June 25' 2012, I do believe he flew in disguise and maybe the above trip to Dubai last April 2009 I am quoting was made to look for a place to hide if not for the whole hoax but at least for certain periods of time, BTW I couldn't find that vid again.
... JJ's slip up was there as a decoy, he put it in our minds and we assumed MJ went to the airport. ...
If the family is giving misleading hoax clues, then we might as well believe that they are just playing games with us and MJ is dead. Also, many hoaxers already believed that MJ flew out of LAX, months before Jermaine gave this clue. So that belief was not based on Jermaine’s “airport” slip of the lip; instead, Jermaine's statement was confirmation.
TS is confirming that Michael flew if I am not wrong.
Post by: Adi on November 06, 2012, 06:51:50 PM
Except in this case it would be MJ's alive body which returned there, not his "dead" body......
This story was posted on June 30th 2009:
Jackson's Body to Return to Neverland
We've just learned Michael Jackson's body is set to be driven to
Neverland Ranch late Thursday morning.
Law enforcement sources tell TMZ upwards of a 30 car motorcade -- including Jackson's body --
will be traveling from Los Angeles to Neverland at 10 AM on Thursday.
We're told law enforcement is currently meeting to discuss security and traffic control.
Our sources say plans are in the works for a public viewing to take place on either Friday or Saturday.
Story developing ...
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/30/jacksons-body-to-return-to-neverland/#ixzz2BUe6Bn9f
Post by: wishingstar on November 06, 2012, 06:55:59 PM
Remember we were shown Michael's art at the airport in Santa Monica. Here's an article about it:
http://blogs.laweekly.com/arts/2011/08/michael_jacksons_art_revealed.php
Here's Jermaine...he never says which airport.......
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9S1WFfcnSE[/youtube]
Just thinking out loud here.....
Blessings
Post by: bec on November 06, 2012, 06:56:33 PM
Well for all external purposes anyway. IF what we saw was real.
At least the Court of LA County does not define the involuntary mans.laughter as alleged.
Ps. JJ's statement was "confirmation"? Why, because TS says so? Pardon, TS, but like others have said prior to me, you raised us better then that.
Post by: bec on November 06, 2012, 07:01:00 PM
JJ said MJ went to the "airport", not MJ "flew away in an airplane".
And like you said wishingstar, MJ reportedly had an art studio in an airplane hanger, presumably at an airport. Not sure where else you would find an airplane hanger other then at an airport so it's probably a pretty safe presumption.
I still think it's false confirmation. I don't know how or why he would risk electronic methods of communication that day. He didn't even want his "911" call to hit the police scanners.
Post by: Andrea on November 06, 2012, 07:06:16 PM
@sweetsunset......in my mind, TS seemed to confirm that Michael went to the airport, but did he actually fly anywhere? And what airport?
Remember we were shown Michael's art at the airport in Santa Monica. Here's an article about it:
http://blogs.laweekly.com/arts/2011/08/michael_jacksons_art_revealed.php
Here's Jermaine...he never says which airport.......
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9S1WFfcnSE[/youtube]
Just thinking out loud here.....
Blessings
Thanks for posting that video, I'd been meaning to watch it again. He pauses a couple times before the "slip up", like there was deliberate thought put into what he was going to say. So NOT a slip-up. If it's not a slip-up then Jermaine didn't "out" MJ's actions that day. Rather, Jermaine confirmed that MJ is alive. The airport theory was already known in the hoax community before Jermaine said that - Jermaine was giving the hoax community a subtle shout-out.
Post by: wishingstar on November 06, 2012, 08:14:36 PM
good one.....I guess only time will tell. It's an adventure for sure : )
btw...you are most welcome for the post...I always enjoy a look back at these types of early-on videos, as I call them.
Those were some crazy days for sure......
Have a beautiful evening....
LOVE
Post by: curls on November 07, 2012, 01:55:17 AM
@bec, so you are convinced the sting is ONLY against the media and fans? Could be - but did we need a full blown court case to achieve that? I'm trying to consider other subjects, you understand, in light of TS's recent posts! What did he mean by asking us to consider 'what is not alleged'?
Well I'm just taking into account the available information. I have seen nothing to indicate a sting other then on the media and the fans. MJ is pretty good at feeding us the hints n whispers, why would he be so mum about this part of his agenda? Why would he leave it only up to TS to spread the word? Even the Jackson family quit talking about conspiracy and the "real" murderer over a year ago. TS is really the only source for anything "sting" related, again, other then on the media or on the fans.
Forget a whole court case, did he need to full blown fake his death to run a sting operation on the media and the fans? So, I dunno, I think sure, MJ does everything big. The bigger the better, right? Seems to be the track record of the man in question.
I think speculation on an additional sting is just that, speculation. We have nothing else to go on and that makes me doubt that there is anything more to it then what we have already discovered. Anything other then fiction n a good story.
We have discussed this for... a year and a half? Probably longer. That's a long time to coast on just assumption and hypotheticals.
Of course there can be all sorts of stuff going on that we are not privy to. MJ lets us see and know only which he wants us to see and know. My mind is open about it, should more information come in, but it feels as though the hour grows late.
At this juncture, yes, I believe the sting is only on the fans and the media. Well, and the general public too.
I do think that we are being hoaxed as well, so I am always mindful of this potential. Not all of which we believe is true. Not all of which we are being led to believe is true either.
Well, ain't that the truth! Probably. Maybe.
Oh, and in regards to what is NOT alleged; the involuntary mans.laughter. That is asserted. The case was closed and delivered to the jury which settled on a Guilty verdict and delivered it to the court. Therefore the mans.laughter is NOT alleged any longer.
Well for all external purposes anyway. IF what we saw was real.
At least the Court of LA County does not define the involuntary mans.laughter as alleged.
Ps. JJ's statement was "confirmation"? Why, because TS says so? Pardon, TS, but like others have said prior to me, you raised us better then that.
So, in essence the trial highlighted real, as in not alleged, involuntary manslaughter by incompetant 'doctors', on addicts with more money than sense, using 'substances' they can easily get their hands on. MJ used himself, an alleged victim on an alleged date, to show what is happening to many others especially in the entertainment world/Hollywood. Is this just a 'spotlight' on a situation or a sting operation?
Maybe MJ did escape LA before kick off day of June 25th 2009 and then return shortly after to Neverland to hide out as this TMZ story kind of hints? I'm reading between the lines here.
Except in this case it would be MJ's alive body which returned there, not his "dead" body......
This story was posted on June 30th 2009:
Jackson's Body to Return to Neverland
We've just learned Michael Jackson's body is set to be driven to
Neverland Ranch late Thursday morning.
Law enforcement sources tell TMZ upwards of a 30 car motorcade -- including Jackson's body --
will be traveling from Los Angeles to Neverland at 10 AM on Thursday.
We're told law enforcement is currently meeting to discuss security and traffic control.
Our sources say plans are in the works for a public viewing to take place on either Friday or Saturday.
Story developing ...
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/30/jacksons-body-to-return-to-neverland/#ixzz2BUe6Bn9f
Wouldn't this just be the best thing ever? If MJ basically told the world he was returning to Neverland 5 days after he 'died' - and he did just that! I love love love the pure brazen, self-confident, :images: nature of that little scenario! :icon_lol:
Post by: MJonmind on November 07, 2012, 03:00:03 AM
Quote
Maybe MJ did escape LA before kick off day of June 25th 2009 and then return shortly after to Neverland to hide out as this TMZ story kind of hints?Not only does his flight outta there if only for a few days, add layers to the story, but they may confuse anyone still out to get him as well, enemies as TS hinted at.
Bec
Quote
Forget a whole court case, did he need to full blown fake his death to run a sting operation on the media and the fans? So, I dunno, I think sure, MJ does everything big. The bigger the better, right?You know where MJ is talking about Sony, his finances, business dealings, he would say, “It’s a very delicate situation.” And when he sings, TDRCAU, he is talking about TPTB, the NWO gang, bankers, all those in ruling positions who rob, cheat, lie, step on people to get what they want. I don’t think TS or MJ would openly say ‘they’ are a sting target—perhaps too dangerous. I think the evil people behind MJ’s false allegations and part of the ultimate target of the big STING, could be shown like a pyramid. At the bottom were Sneddon, Dimond, Grace, Even Chandler, the Arvizos. Next level could be Sony, Catholic Church, Racist powerful people. Next level possibly bankers, Bilderbergers, Illuminati. Next level IDK, alien/demonic powers. I say this because of 2 of Front’s early posts: (TS’ Sign #1 on the coming EOW and Michael Archangel=Jesus verifies this)
Quote
June 03, 2011, 09:27:50 AM »
The beginning always gives way to an end.
The end always gives way to a beginning.
Scientists tell us that dark matter exists, but they cannot SEE it. They have admitted that they can't find 90 percent of the Universe! We cannot see or touch it; its existence is IMPLIED ---through findings/"evidence".
Throughout the History of time, there has been an ongoing battle between GOOD and EVIL. Prophets have walked among us pre-June 25 and continue to walk among us --- physically in the flesh OR implied through Faith. They walk the face of the Earth with a message --- Love for all human-kind….. and deLIVErance; the common denominator of Prophetic messages.
The world listened when Michael fought his battles with UNdying determination ---and JUSTICE prevailed. And they listened to his message. BUt they did NOT listen close enough! SOME people only "heard" (half truths)…… while others truly "listened" (Truth!) ---- they got the whole enchilada.
That battle is still being fought……just on a different layer of the "enchilada".
Believing and knowing are two different things. Don't take my word as conclusive evidence. The proof will be provided in future HIStory……….
Quote
June 02, 2011, 06:07:38 PM »
FACTS vs. ILLusion…….
By listening, one will learn truths.
By hearing, one will only learn half truths.
By watching, one will learn to decipher between the two.
TRUTH.......
".....But first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth.
No one supports me against them....
except Michael, your Prince"----(King).
---- Daniel 10:21
A VISION.........
"At that time Michael shall stand up…...the great prince (King) who stands watch(ing)……
And there shall be a time of trouble…..
And at that time……" ---Daniel 12:1
…deLIVEerance!
"Michael in contending with the dEVIL…..
dared not bring against him a reviling accusation……" -Jude 9
REVELATION...... <<<justice prevails.
"War broke out in heaven….Michael and his angels fought with the dragons and his angels ---but they did NOT prevail…" ---Revelation 12:7-8
They say History repeats itself; it's already written.
"We're takin' over, we have the TRUTH
This IS the Mission." ----- The Greatest (on Hiatus)
Sim! Elvis/MJ connections! :icon_albino:
Post by: emulik on November 07, 2012, 07:33:37 AM
Post by: Andrea on November 07, 2012, 08:57:30 AM
Quote
You know where MJ is talking about Sony, his finances, business dealings, he would say, “It’s a very delicate situation.” And when he sings, TDRCAU, he is talking about TPTB, the NWO gang, bankers, all those in ruling positions who rob, cheat, lie, step on people to get what they want. I don’t think TS or MJ would openly say ‘they’ are a sting target—perhaps too dangerous. I think the evil people behind MJ’s false allegations and part of the ultimate target of the big STING, could be shown like a pyramid. At the bottom were Sneddon, Dimond, Grace, Even Chandler, the Arvizos. Next level could be Sony, Catholic Church, Racist powerful people. Next level possibly bankers, Bilderbergers, Illuminati. Next level IDK, alien/demonic powers. I say this because of 2 of Front’s early posts: (TS’ Sign #1 on the coming EOW and Michael Archangel=Jesus verifies this)
Interesting concept - a pyramid sting. I was thinking about potential sting targets last night and I remembered back's neocon sh*t list, it might make sense if there is a sting against some of those people, which includes members of the media. The common denominator of that list was GREED.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21879.0.html
Post by: ellyd on November 07, 2012, 12:25:06 PM
"Today in TMZ History".
Only this article under this headline, not the other articles about CRM published the same day:
Quote
Today in TMZ Historyhttp://www.tmz.com/2011/11/07/conrad-murray-verdict-guilty/?adid=center_tmz_history (http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/07/conrad-murray-verdict-guilty/?adid=center_tmz_history)
11/7/2011 1:15 PM PST BY TMZ STAFF
Dr. Conrad Murray Verdict
GUILTY
Dr. Conrad Murray has been found GUILTY of involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson.
After the verdict was read, you can hear La Toya Jackson and Kathy Hilton cry.
Jurors came back with the verdict moments ago after a grueling 6-week trial, finding prosecutors proved beyond a reasonable doubt ... Dr. Murray is responsible for MJ's death.
Murray faces up to 4 years behind bars, but the reality is ... he will not go to state prison because of a new law, and will likely serve his time in L.A. County Jail.
Murray is scheduled for sentencing on November 29th.
Reactions To Murray Verdict
Dr. Conrad Murray Found Guilty -- Stars React on Twitter!
Conrad Murray's Lawyer: I'm 'Very Disappointed'
Conrad Murray Trial -- LAPD Rejoices Over Guilty Verdict
Quote
11/7/2011 3:31 PM PST BY TMZ STAFFhttp://www.tmz.com/2011/11/07/conrad-murray-trial-lapd-guilty/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/07/conrad-murray-trial-lapd-guilty/)
Conrad Murray Trial
LAPD Rejoices
Over Guilty Verdict
1107_murray_lapd_ex
The LAPD couldn't be happier with today's guilty verdict in the Conrad Murray manslaughter trial -- telling TMZ, the verdict represents a "victory " in the eyes of law enforcement.
A rep for the LAPD issued the statement -- claiming, the department "applauded" the jury's verdict.
According to the rep, "Today's verdict of guilty is confirmation that the combined efforts of our investigators, criminalists, Coroner investigators and the District Attorney's Office were sound."
The rep adds, "The investigators have worked diligently on this case and were confident throughout the process that the investigation supported the allegation of involuntary manslaughter."
LAPD In The Murray Trial
Dr. Conrad Murray -- The Interview that Sunk Him
TMZ Live -- How Dr. Murray Dug His Own Grave ...
People vs. Dr. Conrad Murray -- LAPD Detective Testifies
Post by: Sarahli on November 07, 2012, 03:06:20 PM
But mind you, TS never confirmed that he would finish by 29 November 2012. We again are assuming. :LolLolLolLol:
Post by: Loveunited on November 08, 2012, 12:01:54 AM
I still think he went to an airport. MJ AIR notwithstanding, I don't think he got on an airplane. Pay as you go cell phones seem to provide some measure of security against survellience...Pay, use, discard........
I also still think it is a sting and hoax. I believe the sting has multiple layers;the trial was necessary and gave opportunity to show not only how irresponsible the media is (really? all the legal anomolies in the trial and the likes of COURT TV "journalists" don't question anything because the coverage is worth so much money?--not really surprised anymore). Then we have all the investigation taking a look at the state of courts and the shoddy state of activities and misuse of power-- harkening back to 2005 trial and Sneddon (bearing in mind that Michael was only one of his victims)-- and all the institutionalized cover ups to support the continuation of such corruption. We have had our eyes open to a range of organized crime and corruption, from the Interfor Report re embezzlement, the FBI being given documents regarding organized efforts to litigate Michael into bankruptcy in 2006,
to Chancery Club and Bet Tzedek Rico suits http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/groups/topic/view/group_id/20/topic_id/50
to acts of commission in Santa Barbara County and Los Angles County
The corruption in the State Bar of California http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/groups/topic/view/group_id/20/topic_id/49
and the US Supreme court looking at the corruption in the California Supreme Court.
Then there is all the business corruption surrounding Michael... which really needed Michael dead to fully expose since TPTB couldn't blame him any longer for things THEY did (really, all close people to Michael changed over the month before he died?--well good to keep enemies closer to give them rope to hang themselves with).........So MUCH business corruption its really unbeLIEvable----and even tho there have been attempts to expose this corruption, it is allowed to continue...And frankly, the activity is just indicative of what is happening to ALOT of us-- using information to use identities to invest in bogus deals to launder money etc....Same thing that brought down Keith Corbain's estate is happening everywhere.
Then there are all the evidence of and hints at further real physical threats of harm to the family. Now then, this is a family that had to FIGHT to get charges pressed against the man (Bohana) that murdered Dee Dee, Tito's ex-wife in 1994, despite clear evidence that pointed to foul play. And from what I read,it needed persistance to have the DA office take another look at the case. But I digress
I could go on and on, but my very tired brain needs to stop-- I know I have only mentioned little bits of so many things that have been swirling around. I feel the sting is multi-faceted and has many targets. Some may have been direct and more personal, others indirect (heck look at so many things that have developed-- Murdock exposed, Goldman Sacs exposed etc etc etc) but no less personal and relevant to lots of people.
I just cant see the reason for the whole hoax to not have a serious sting component to it, as well as being intriguing.
ok, I have blathered on too much and not even touched on so many other aspects of things, but my eyes are trying to close, so I will stop now!
Thanks for you patience :icon_redface:
Post by: bec on November 08, 2012, 12:22:52 AM
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 08, 2012, 01:14:28 AM
So tired... have been wanting to jump in so many places with no timE.
I still think he went to an airport. MJ AIR notwithstanding, I don't think he got on an airplane. Pay as you go cell phones seem to provide some measure of security against survellience...Pay, use, discard........ :suspect: :icon_lol:
I also still think it is a sting and hoax. I believe the sting has multiple layers;the trial was necessary and gave opportunity to show not only how irresponsible the media is (really? all the legal anomolies in the trial and the likes of COURT TV "journalists" don't question anything because the coverage is worth so much money?--not really surprised anymore). Then we have all the investigation taking a look at the state of courts and the shoddy state of activities and misuse of power-- harkening back to 2005 trial and Sneddon (bearing in mind that Michael was only one of his victims)-- and all the institutionalized cover ups to support the continuation of such corruption. We have had our eyes open to a range of organized crime and corruption, from the Interfor Report re embezzlement, the FBI being given documents regarding organized efforts to litigate Michael into bankruptcy in 2006,
to Chancery Club and Bet Tzedek Rico suits http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/groups/topic/view/group_id/20/topic_id/50
to acts of commission in Santa Barbara County and Los Angles County
The corruption in the State Bar of California http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/groups/topic/view/group_id/20/topic_id/49
and the US Supreme court looking at the corruption in the California Supreme Court.
Then there is all the business corruption surrounding Michael... which really needed Michael dead to fully expose since TPTB couldn't blame him any longer for things THEY did (really, all close people to Michael changed over the month before he died?--well good to keep enemies closer to give them rope to hang themselves with).........So MUCH business corruption its really unbeLIEvable----and even tho there have been attempts to expose this corruption, it is allowed to continue...And frankly, the activity is just indicative of what is happening to ALOT of us-- using information to use identities to invest in bogus deals to launder money etc....Same thing that brought down Keith Corbain's estate is happening everywhere.
Then there are all the evidence of and hints at further real physical threats of harm to the family. Now then, this is a family that had to FIGHT to get charges pressed against the man (Bohana) that murdered Dee Dee, Tito's ex-wife in 1994, despite clear evidence that pointed to foul play. And from what I read,it needed persistance to have the DA office take another look at the case. But I digress
I could go on and on, but my very tired brain needs to stop-- I know I have only mentioned little bits of so many things that have been swirling around. I feel the sting is multi-faceted and has many targets. Some may have been direct and more personal, others indirect (heck look at so many things that have developed-- Murdock exposed, Goldman Sacs exposed etc etc etc) but no less personal and relevant to lots of people.
I just cant see the reason for the whole hoax to not have a serious sting component to it, as well as being intriguing.
ok, I have blathered on too much and not even touched on so many other aspects of things, but my eyes are trying to close, so I will stop now!
Thanks for you patience :icon_redface:
That was a good synopsis. I especially agree with the extra bolded stuff. lmao... only a crook can catch a crook or someone who is a Smooth Criminal! lmao. Watching and learning from others tends to give you some lessons but the best lessons for me always were Real Life. :icon_e_wink:
Ya know I kinda feel bad in a way because I think some peeps are missing out on the actual Bam. I also think they are missing some very magical stuff happening all over the interweb. What a shame that they are so focused on bullshit.
Man after waiting for 3.5 years like some have, I'd be mad IF I missed out on the ending! Isn't that the whole point in watchin' The Greatest Show on Earth?
:over-react-smiley:
Post by: curls on November 08, 2012, 01:46:00 AM
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 08, 2012, 02:20:50 AM
^^ what 'peeps' are you referring to here, Im_convinced? I read it like you mean others on the forum, who aren't on the same page as you, who are somehow missing out. Please tell me if I interpreted that wrongly.
curls-
Interpret it anyway you want. Jus sayin'. I don't call out names. IF someone wants to miss it by not lookin' in other places... it's their choice. My bad. I can't hold their hands, lead them to the info, show them the info, and force them to see it! :Pulling_hair:
Post by: Loveunited on November 08, 2012, 07:23:45 AM
It's Moonwalker 2012.
:th_bravo: :thjajaja121:
Post by: suspicious mind on November 08, 2012, 07:31:44 AM
^^ what 'peeps' are you referring to here, Im_convinced? I read it like you mean others on the forum, who aren't on the same page as you, who are somehow missing out. Please tell me if I interpreted that wrongly.
curls-
Interpret it anyway you want. Jus sayin'. I don't call out names. IF someone wants to miss it by not lookin' in other places... it's their choice. My bad. I can't hold their hands, lead them to the info, show them the info, and force them to see it! :Pulling_hair:
well actually the highlighted part you can. ( or are you saying you already have and just can't force them to see it?) :icon_e_confused:
Post by: RK on November 08, 2012, 07:49:01 AM
So tired... have been wanting to jump in so many places with no timE.
I still think he went to an airport. MJ AIR notwithstanding, I don't think he got on an airplane. Pay as you go cell phones seem to provide some measure of security against survellience...Pay, use, discard........
I also still think it is a sting and hoax. I believe the sting has multiple layers;the trial was necessary and gave opportunity to show not only how irresponsible the media is (really? all the legal anomolies in the trial and the likes of COURT TV "journalists" don't question anything because the coverage is worth so much money?--not really surprised anymore). Then we have all the investigation taking a look at the state of courts and the shoddy state of activities and misuse of power-- harkening back to 2005 trial and Sneddon (bearing in mind that Michael was only one of his victims)-- and all the institutionalized cover ups to support the continuation of such corruption. We have had our eyes open to a range of organized crime and corruption, from the Interfor Report re embezzlement, the FBI being given documents regarding organized efforts to litigate Michael into bankruptcy in 2006,
to Chancery Club and Bet Tzedek Rico suits http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/groups/topic/view/group_id/20/topic_id/50
to acts of commission in Santa Barbara County and Los Angles County
The corruption in the State Bar of California http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/groups/topic/view/group_id/20/topic_id/49
and the US Supreme court looking at the corruption in the California Supreme Court.
Then there is all the business corruption surrounding Michael... which really needed Michael dead to fully expose since TPTB couldn't blame him any longer for things THEY did (really, all close people to Michael changed over the month before he died?--well good to keep enemies closer to give them rope to hang themselves with).........So MUCH business corruption its really unbeLIEvable----and even tho there have been attempts to expose this corruption, it is allowed to continue...And frankly, the activity is just indicative of what is happening to ALOT of us-- using information to use identities to invest in bogus deals to launder money etc....Same thing that brought down Keith Corbain's estate is happening everywhere.
Then there are all the evidence of and hints at further real physical threats of harm to the family. Now then, this is a family that had to FIGHT to get charges pressed against the man (Bohana) that murdered Dee Dee, Tito's ex-wife in 1994, despite clear evidence that pointed to foul play. And from what I read,it needed persistance to have the DA office take another look at the case. But I digress
I could go on and on, but my very tired brain needs to stop-- I know I have only mentioned little bits of so many things that have been swirling around. I feel the sting is multi-faceted and has many targets. Some may have been direct and more personal, others indirect (heck look at so many things that have developed-- Murdock exposed, Goldman Sacs exposed etc etc etc) but no less personal and relevant to lots of people.
I just cant see the reason for the whole hoax to not have a serious sting component to it, as well as being intriguing.
ok, I have blathered on too much and not even touched on so many other aspects of things, but my eyes are trying to close, so I will stop now!
Thanks for you patience :icon_redface:
Great post. Thank you for such a broad summary. Just wanted to say I lean this way in my thinking also. (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-F2wn90d7Rk/TLvrwhHeYEI/AAAAAAAABCg/ihwIqyZayBg/s200/two+thumbs+up.jpg)
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 08, 2012, 09:41:19 AM
Post by: curls on November 08, 2012, 09:58:27 AM
^^ what 'peeps' are you referring to here, Im_convinced? I read it like you mean others on the forum, who aren't on the same page as you, who are somehow missing out. Please tell me if I interpreted that wrongly.
curls-
Interpret it anyway you want. Jus sayin'. I don't call out names. IF someone wants to miss it by not lookin' in other places... it's their choice. My bad. I can't hold their hands, lead them to the info, show them the info, and force them to see it! :Pulling_hair:
Exactly! Everyone can be responsible only for themself - and no-one else: what they look at, or don't, leads they follow, or don't, conclusions they reach, or don't. No point pulling your hair out over it!
Post by: suspicious mind on November 08, 2012, 10:07:16 AM
Post by: wishingstar on November 08, 2012, 01:37:35 PM
so the defendant was not alleged was he? :icon_e_confused:
Good question suspicious mind......if the incident was alleged, wouldn't that automatically make anyone
involved alleged....at least legally? We hear Michael being called the "alleged victim" and June 25th as the "alleged date"
but Murray is not referred to as alleged anything. Once again, in all its glory, lol....the verdict reading:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqpGtrtKCPE&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
Blessings
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 08, 2012, 01:41:09 PM
^^ what 'peeps' are you referring to here, Im_convinced? I read it like you mean others on the forum, who aren't on the same page as you, who are somehow missing out. Please tell me if I interpreted that wrongly.
curls-
Interpret it anyway you want. Jus sayin'. I don't call out names. IF someone wants to miss it by not lookin' in other places... it's their choice. My bad. I can't hold their hands, lead them to the info, show them the info, and force them to see it! :Pulling_hair:
Exactly! Everyone can be responsible only for themself - and no-one else: what they look at, or don't, leads they follow, or don't, conclusions they reach, or don't. No point pulling your hair out over it!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHMaWj6RBE[/youtube]
No worries! Not pullin' my hair out- jus want 2 share the joy with my fellow hoaxers who have been patient and loyal!
:multiplespotting: :smiley_abuv: :beerchug:
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 08, 2012, 01:49:04 PM
Post by: Sarahli on November 08, 2012, 04:58:22 PM
so the defendant was not alleged was he? :icon_e_confused:
Good question suspicious mind......if the incident was alleged, wouldn't that automatically make anyone
involved alleged....at least legally? We hear Michael being called the "alleged victim" and June 25th as the "alleged date"
but Murray is not referred to as alleged anything. Once again, in all its glory, lol....the verdict reading:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqpGtrtKCPE&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
Blessings
It's a nice coincidence that this video lasts 21 minutes and 12 seconds. It translates into 21 December for me, lol.
Post by: Jos on November 08, 2012, 05:15:34 PM
^^ what 'peeps' are you referring to here, Im_convinced? I read it like you mean others on the forum, who aren't on the same page as you, who are somehow missing out. Please tell me if I interpreted that wrongly.
curls-
Interpret it anyway you want. Jus sayin'. I don't call out names. IF someone wants to miss it by not lookin' in other places... it's their choice. My bad. I can't hold their hands, lead them to the info, show them the info, and force them to see it! :Pulling_hair:
Exactly! Everyone can be responsible only for themself - and no-one else: what they look at, or don't, leads they follow, or don't, conclusions they reach, or don't. No point pulling your hair out over it!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHMaWj6RBE[/youtube]
No worries! Not pullin' my hair out- jus want 2 share the joy with my fellow hoaxers who have been patient and loyal!
:multiplespotting: :smiley_abuv: :beerchug:
Oh my! Thay guy has the moves! Wow! :smiley_abuv: :smiley_abuv:
Post by: suspicious mind on November 08, 2012, 06:33:23 PM
so the defendant was not alleged was he? :icon_e_confused:
Good question suspicious mind......if the incident was alleged, wouldn't that automatically make anyone
involved alleged....at least legally? We hear Michael being called the "alleged victim" and June 25th as the "alleged date"
but Murray is not referred to as alleged anything. Once again, in all its glory, lol....the verdict reading:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqpGtrtKCPE&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
Blessings
humm so when he is going over the part about the date error he says alleged incident.
Post by: ashprak247 on November 08, 2012, 07:03:36 PM
See you in December http://t.co/UEL5HcWa”
Post by: MJonmind on November 08, 2012, 09:53:21 PM
If you have no victim on no date, then where does that leave the perpetrator/defendant? It would be redundant to say 'alleged' the third time. :Dso the defendant was not alleged was he? :icon_e_confused:
Good question suspicious mind......if the incident was alleged, wouldn't that automatically make anyone
involved alleged....at least legally? We hear Michael being called the "alleged victim" and June 25th as the "alleged date"
but Murray is not referred to as alleged anything. Once again, in all its glory, lol....the verdict reading:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqpGtrtKCPE&feature=player_embedded#![/youtube]
Blessings
Loveunited
Quote
So tired... have been wanting to jump in so many places with no timE.
I really hope you post more. You have some very good info/observations!
Bec
Quote
It's Moonwalker 2012.Yeah, TPTB that want to take over the world by addicting everyone to their drugs and lies. But MJ has his lucky star!
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 08, 2012, 10:40:59 PM
“@EcasanovaEvans: We are ready to CMBCK
See you in December http://t.co/UEL5HcWa”
Hi - is this twitter account real? I thought that Ecasanova didn't have a Twitter account?
...and yes, I'm ready for the finale. I know we should be patient, and I have for most of this 3+years, but life's demands are stretching me really thin and I just cannot devote the time any more. But even if I can't be here every day my mind isn't too far removed. Would just love to see a happy ending with so much heartache that hoax members are experiencing right now.
Blessings
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 08, 2012, 10:42:59 PM
Your missin' the Best part. I found some cool online games in youtube land. 4 real girl this shit is awesome.
I'm not a gamer but I do like Batman N Robin comic shows from my childhood. The older ones R classics N funny.
This updated stuff is very cool.
:multiplespotting: :smiley_abuv:
Post by: bec on November 09, 2012, 12:58:32 AM
Y'all have gone off the deep end that's all I have to say. This is the TIAI thread, not a chat free for all thread. You're killing me.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 09, 2012, 10:42:14 AM
... Because it was live and included people who were not aware that it wasn't real so it was used for legality but also was used to indicate to anyone who was paying attention that it wasn't a real verdict (prevent entrapment).
Exactly!
The key word is "also"--it served TWO purposes: a clue, and ALSO legalities. Which means that the court was BOTH hoax court, and sting court! (Ooops, did I spill the beans?)
:th_bravo: :th_bravo:
So if its a real court (sting) with some people playing a role (hoax)
So does this mean that Connie IS or ISNT sitting in a cell?
I maintain, no.
@ SIM
IN on the hoax:
- the judge
- prosecution
- defense (& Murray , of course!! :icon_lol: )
- jury (maybe not in its entirety)
- Murray's girl friends :icon_lol:
- MJ's bodyguards,
- Kai Chase,
- Kenny Ortega
What about the Prison system? Esp if there is no Murray there. (What i believe) At least one person from there needs to be in on it. Also explains solitary confinement, no one needs to see him... But at least the top dog must be in.
Also @ Bec - interesting point you made a few pages back about MJ needing to be back to be Dave Dave on LKL - I don't think he left, but even more so since you pointed that out. It's quite obvious he had to be grounded. Esp t be there on an ad-hoc basis, should something go wrong. I think parts of the hoax are fluid and open to variables. Control from a remote location doesn't sound like the least risky option when the most famous person on the planet is trying to pull off a death hoax.
@ others, I think WE are here to help and guide each other. Not to force people to see what we see, no. But to assist each other yes. People who think in such a way show unselfishness and kindness of heart. We are a team. MJ's army of L.O.V.E. We should be united and helpful. It's what he would want.
Post by: bec on November 09, 2012, 11:35:20 AM
If there's no established and legally proven victim, could the crime of manslaughter have been committed? I'm not sure how it could...
In order to charge someone with the death of another you have to have a body. In lieu of a body (missing persons), a person must be declared legally dead by the court and in order to do that, the family must petition for it, and typically the petition is only accepted has been missing and presumed dead for many years. See the Helen Brach case from the 80's as an example.
As an aside, Judge Pastor referred to the "alleged incident" just prior to the verdict reading, which COULD explain that solitary use of the word alleged. If he didn't include the word alleged it would indicate to the court that a Guilty verdict was about to be handed down momentarily and I'm not sure he's allowed to do that.
Ooo! Maybe perhaps this is a hidden little nugget confirming there was No Body??
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on November 09, 2012, 12:26:44 PM
Why do I feel like I woke up in a parallel hoax universe? Something feels off. Who cares about e'cas? Since when does anyone think that MJ twitter account everyone's going on about missing n's on is real? And what games @Im_con, huh where when how what?
Y'all have gone off the deep end that's all I have to say. This is the TIAI thread, not a chat free for all thread. You're killing me.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=349eEvhh2d8[/youtube]
:thjajaja121: :thjajaja121: :thjajaja121:
PayBACK is A BITCH! Yea Boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:images: :th_bravo: :smiley_abuv: :icon_geek:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 09, 2012, 10:56:17 PM
"Alleged victim" indicates that victimization wasn't proven in a court of law.
If there's no established and legally proven victim, could the crime of manslaughter have been committed? I'm not sure how it could...
In order to charge someone with the death of another you have to have a body. In lieu of a body (missing persons), a person must be declared legally dead by the court and in order to do that, the family must petition for it, and typically the petition is only accepted has been missing and presumed dead for many years. See the Helen Brach case from the 80's as an example.
As an aside, Judge Pastor referred to the "alleged incident" just prior to the verdict reading, which COULD explain that solitary use of the word alleged. If he didn't include the word alleged it would indicate to the court that a Guilty verdict was about to be handed down momentarily and I'm not sure he's allowed to do that.
Ooo! Maybe perhaps this is a hidden little nugget confirming there was No Body??
Didn't someone find a hidden message in a TS post, where he kept on saying NO BODY? So there was no body right? But then later TS says there needed to be something to go to UCLA or else it wouldn't work.
I thought it would get easier, but the more I look at it the more I feel TS is reading from diff books.
Which one are you opening now TS...'The book Nobody Read', 'The Somebodies' or 'Hoax for Dummies'?
I also found it weird that Rihanna's new album contains a song with Breezy called 'Nobodies Business' which samples MJ's 'The Way You Make Me Feel'.
The fact that it's 'Nobodies Business' and not 'Nobody's Business' caught my eye, but it's probably nothing.
Post by: diggyon on November 10, 2012, 03:56:31 AM
Post by: MJonmind on November 10, 2012, 04:04:44 AM
Just wondering.... aren't TPTB aware of all this?? They must have known by now that MJ didn't die, which means that he is still on their black list.Front
Quote
The "substance" shall be revealed when each layer has been completed, for it is simmering to perfection and cannot be disturbed until the final product is executed in its entirety.I think that's why we can't have all the answers we would dearly love. We just have to trust Michael, and I do.
p.s. we are watchin'…..but so are they. :?
Post by: MissG on November 10, 2012, 03:32:22 PM
Me got lost :-[
Post by: paula-c on November 14, 2012, 09:05:05 AM
...
Someone who died, or someone who was alive and did not need any medication for what in the photo there is no IV
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ivcomp10.jpg)
I think that the answer is in that picture, this Stretcher was someone that maybe he died and did not need medication.QuoteQuote from: scorpionchik on November 29, 2011, 01:24:26 PM
Quote from: TS_comments on November 28, 2011, 05:20:40 PM
Quote from: Adi on November 26, 2011, 08:36:40 AM
The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.
EXACTLY! It is coming together now, as I said it would. As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.
Quote from: GINAFELICIA on November 26, 2011, 08:41:06 AM
Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:
BINGO!
Someone suggested that the staff were sent away, so they would not take pictures. Really? In a life-and-death emergency, you are going to WAIT until the staff leaves, before taking MJ to the hospital, JUST SO NOBODY GETS A PICTURE?? In other words, it's okay if MJ dies before we get him to the hospital, just so long as nobody gets a picture in the process!!!???!!!
Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did. So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax. If MJ really died, this makes no sense.
Quote from: RK on November 26, 2011, 04:04:59 PM
So that gets rid of MJ in person on the stretcher.....
Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.
TS, you were telling that NOTHING went to UCLA and Michael was NOT with us WAY BEFORE he arrived to the airport (by Jermain), meaning Michael left Carolwood way before staged 911 call, then he went to airport to fly somewhere.
Then WHY and what is the meaning to tell house staff to leave house NOT TO SEE WHAT WAS ON STRETCHER if you are suggesting NOTHING went to UCLA.
SEE, I FOUND INCONSISTENCY in your theory because now u say staff was let go so they could not take a picture of BODY on stretcher bringing down. I am confused; was there body or no?
Could you please quote or highlight where I said that nothing went to UCLA? I don't think I ever said that, if so it was a typo--or you are misunderstanding something. That is why it is good to bring up what you think are inconsistencies; it may in fact not be an inconsistency, but rather a misunderstanding of what I meant.
:th_bravo:
If it was Michael who was on the stretcher ( becoming the dead) their employees what could have seen that would have given him more realism to that whole situation on 25 June, but no they were fired before to prevent that to see who was on the stretcher
Post by: SimPattyK on November 14, 2012, 11:17:19 AM
@ SIMyes, the Prison System too :icon_e_wink:What about the Prison system? Esp if there is no Murray there. (What i believe) At least one person from there needs to be in on it. Also explains solitary confinement, no one needs to see him... But at least the top dog must be in. [....]
IN on the hoax:
- the judge
- prosecution
- defense (& Murray , of course!! :icon_lol: )
- jury (maybe not in its entirety)
- Murray's girl friends :icon_lol:
- MJ's bodyguards,
- Kai Chase,
- Kenny Ortega
[....]
Post by: curls on November 16, 2012, 05:49:02 AM
Post by: suspicious mind on November 16, 2012, 08:10:37 AM
Can anyone please point me in the right direction for info about the staff being dismissed before the stretcher was brought downstairs? How have I missed this gem thus far! Where and when did this story first surface? Who did the 'dismissing'?
only from memory that it came out early on and it was supposed to have been thome who did the dismissing. i could be wrong though. :-[
Post by: Sarahli on November 16, 2012, 02:24:26 PM
Can anyone please point me in the right direction for info about the staff being dismissed before the stretcher was brought downstairs? How have I missed this gem thus far! Where and when did this story first surface? Who did the 'dismissing'?
I just remember Kai Chase said she was asked to leave as well as the housekeepers by security; around minute 13:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0Pl7mSnxjl0[/youtube]
Post by: curls on November 16, 2012, 04:09:04 PM
Post by: curls on November 17, 2012, 02:51:20 AM
Did we ever hear from any of these other staff? Which member of 'security' told them to leave - suspicious suggested Tohme, but he wasn't at the scene was he?! Did anyone confirm Kai Chase's storyline - other than TS!!
(Not that I think any of this really matters at this stage - just keeping my brain occupied and filling in a few gaps while I wait patiently in this quiet time......! Reading and watching 'old' stuff is interesting and strangely comforting all these months later - many things that I didn't understand or had me worried back then, seem so OBVIOUS now! Surely MJ has planted enough (subliminal) seeds of doubt, that few will be genuinely surprised when he comes back!)
Post by: bec on November 17, 2012, 11:36:07 AM
If the hoax community already suspected Michael to have fled the country via airplane then Jermaine's deliberate "slip-up" sounds like a confirmation. Why would he throw anyone off after the fact? There was no danger anymore when the "slip-up" was done. But anyway, I was just re-reading some of TS' posts and he already gave us his perspective with 5 points backing up his theory (aka MJ went at the airport and not UCLA) so it's like or we believe him or not. Not sure if TS will address this once more. Waiting-- I smell a long post is on the way. :suspect:
But mind you, TS never confirmed that he would finish by 29 November 2012. We again are assuming. :LolLolLolLol:
I was reviewing some archives and I just wanted to comment on this. I don't define this as an assumption, based on this post:
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
predating this more recent post:
Well, after about a year I’m “back”—no, that does NOT have a double meaning, lol.
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
:TongueOutSmiley:
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
TS says the levels will be done by the end of 2012. I think we can safely determine that the 11/29 deadline is this year.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 17, 2012, 02:41:20 PM
If the hoax community already suspected Michael to have fled the country via airplane then Jermaine's deliberate "slip-up" sounds like a confirmation. Why would he throw anyone off after the fact? There was no danger anymore when the "slip-up" was done. But anyway, I was just re-reading some of TS' posts and he already gave us his perspective with 5 points backing up his theory (aka MJ went at the airport and not UCLA) so it's like or we believe him or not. Not sure if TS will address this once more. Waiting-- I smell a long post is on the way. :suspect:
But mind you, TS never confirmed that he would finish by 29 November 2012. We again are assuming. :LolLolLolLol:
I was reviewing some archives and I just wanted to comment on this. I don't define this as an assumption, based on this post:I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
predating this more recent post:Well, after about a year I’m “back”—no, that does NOT have a double meaning, lol.
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
:TongueOutSmiley:
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
TS says the levels will be done by the end of 2012. I think we can safely determine that the 11/29 deadline is this year.
but is it a fact that when all levels will be done by the end of 2012 that the hoax will be finished as well? I mean did TS make a statement that when all levels will be completed by the end of 2012 that there will be a bam? Perhaps there will be a sequel with level #9 of resurrection in 2013 ?
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 17, 2012, 05:19:17 PM
I was thinking about the BAM the other night. Does one believe that his lawyer who died a few months after him will BAM with him? Over the last 3 years there has been several deaths of people in Michael's inner circle - some by natural means and some not. If Michael comes back and Peter's death ends up being real, will this make for an odd and bitter situation for Peter's family? Just thinking out loud.
I was also reading on the Front thread and there were comments about the BAM party. I wouldn't be surprised if Michael already knows who we all are and where we live and he'll take that into consideration. He has the means to make sure that if everyone can get to a certain area closer to home that he could provide funding for airfare to Neverland. To me, that would be the most appropriate homecoming for him. JMO.
Also - Bec, saw your comment on Front's page about calling Elivs's hoax death and raising him a resurrection. Great comment.
Blessings
Post by: Adi on November 17, 2012, 06:07:51 PM
If the hoax community already suspected Michael to have fled the country via airplane then Jermaine's deliberate "slip-up" sounds like a confirmation. Why would he throw anyone off after the fact? There was no danger anymore when the "slip-up" was done. But anyway, I was just re-reading some of TS' posts and he already gave us his perspective with 5 points backing up his theory (aka MJ went at the airport and not UCLA) so it's like or we believe him or not. Not sure if TS will address this once more. Waiting-- I smell a long post is on the way. :suspect:
But mind you, TS never confirmed that he would finish by 29 November 2012. We again are assuming. :LolLolLolLol:
I was reviewing some archives and I just wanted to comment on this. I don't define this as an assumption, based on this post:I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
predating this more recent post:Well, after about a year I’m “back”—no, that does NOT have a double meaning, lol.
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
:TongueOutSmiley:
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
TS says the levels will be done by the end of 2012. I think we can safely determine that the 11/29 deadline is this year.
Yes I agree 2012....also I have to double check this, but didn't TS say somewhere that UPDATE #7 would be AFTER the BAM?
At the moment we are still only up to Update #6.5: TIai update #6.5: Michael & Elvis, DOUBle-scam from TS?? (TIME DOUBTS) which was started on November 30th 2010 (almost 2 years ago! ...wow)
If so, then TS saying that all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777) pretty much indicates the BAM is this year.....
:Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile
Post by: ashprak247 on November 17, 2012, 07:09:23 PM
I finished my last post with this statement, “I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!” And now I will finish this post with the following statement, “If MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that Paris is a fake informer—and even La Toya, since she verified the pariisjaxn Twitter account more than once.”
If you check the closed caption on the TII DVD, you should find the spelling of "four" and NOT "fore". There is, of course, an interesting four year connection from 2005 to 2009; but four years forward (inclusive) is primarily what is being referred to: 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012. Also, Paris just verified the year 2012 on her Twitter--which my next redirect will be about, stay tuned. bounce/
Post by: ashprak247 on November 17, 2012, 07:10:57 PM
Post by: ashprak247 on November 17, 2012, 07:36:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZFld_CrKi8&sns=em
Post by: Adi on November 17, 2012, 07:56:59 PM
Quote
6-15 Running Out of Ideas?
{http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=8077&p=132300&hilit=running%20out%20of%20ideas#p132300}
This actually goes back to a thread from April 2; several on that thread thought that TS was “running out of ideas”. What do you think—looking back over the redirects and updates from April, May, and June—were they right?
Even now, I am not running out of ideas; actually, everything covered so far has just been an introductory course. But most people think that what I’ve written already is far too much; so how is even more going to help them?
Yes, this redirect also had the “BAM” in the signature. Especially in view of that last paragraph: Update #7 most likely will not be before bamsday—whether that is in June, July, or later. There may be more redirects, but probably not on a regular or daily basis.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,11061.msg183996.html#msg183996
Post by: Andrea on November 17, 2012, 08:49:49 PM
Yes, I think 2012 as well. TS has been hinting at 2012 since late 2009 with the early re-directs. Didn't want to think that then but here we are now. It's go time.
Post by: Adi on November 17, 2012, 09:42:46 PM
Yes, I think 2012 as well. TS has been hinting at 2012 since late 2009 with the early re-directs. Didn't want to think that then but here we are now. It's go time.
Yes, the 2012 year was hinted at from the very start by TS. I didn't want to consider that either.....back in 2009, 2012 seemed like a lifetime away. I can't help but feel a little tingle of excitement at the prospect now we are almost at the end of 2012, but am trying not to get too excited because I have let myself down too many times in the past at all the BAM dates I've had in my head which have come and gone.
Post by: Andrea on November 17, 2012, 09:51:44 PM
Yes, I think 2012 as well. TS has been hinting at 2012 since late 2009 with the early re-directs. Didn't want to think that then but here we are now. It's go time.
Yes, the 2012 year was hinted at from the very start by TS. I didn't want to consider that either.....back in 2009, 2012 seemed like a lifetime away. I can't help but feel a little tingle of excitement at the prospect now we are almost at the end of 2012, but am trying not to get too excited because I have let myself down too many times in the past at all the BAM dates I've had in my head which have come and gone.
I feel the same but I think I'm more excited than anything. Late 2012 was a clue from minute number one of the hoax - 12:21 for the "911" call. Those numbers immediately conjure up thoughts of the infamous date of 12/21/12, for many. Not that the BAM has to be that date, but minute number one of the hoax let us know the timeframe.
Post by: bec on November 17, 2012, 11:52:30 PM
Yes, I think 2012 as well. TS has been hinting at 2012 since late 2009 with the early re-directs. Didn't want to think that then but here we are now. It's go time.
Yes, the 2012 year was hinted at from the very start by TS. I didn't want to consider that either.....back in 2009, 2012 seemed like a lifetime away. I can't help but feel a little tingle of excitement at the prospect now we are almost at the end of 2012, but am trying not to get too excited because I have let myself down too many times in the past at all the BAM dates I've had in my head which have come and gone.
I feel the same but I think I'm more excited than anything. Late 2012 was a clue from minute number one of the hoax - 12:21 for the "911" call. Those numbers immediately conjure up thoughts of the infamous date of 12/21/12, for many. Not that the BAM has to be that date, but minute number one of the hoax let us know the timeframe.
Same here. I never wanted to think 2012 either, I always thought that would be too long. But like you said, Andrea, here we are. Everyone is right, TS has said 2012 for a long time but I never wanted to believe him.
So maybe it'll go: Level 7 finished on 11/29, Sign 7 is MJ himself (12/6? 12/12?, 12/?), and then Update 7 on 12-21-12.
Man, tick-tock it's coming fast. It's like a 2 ton boulder hurtling toward the Earth, back was right. It's a little scary to be honest.
Post by: Andrea on November 18, 2012, 12:24:57 AM
Ya it is a bit scary because that one moment we've been waiting for, for all this time, is upon us - it's why we're still here. I feel as ready as I can be and at the same time, not. It's hard to describe, I'm sure some of you know what I mean. I hope in that moment I savor it. Life will again forever change once Michael is back and I truly hope it brings a positive change to a world that desperately needs it. Whatever happens, I'll be there.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 18, 2012, 12:58:20 AM
Ya it is a bit scary because that one moment we've been waiting for, for all this time, is upon us - it's why we're still here. I feel as ready as I can be and at the same time, not. It's hard to describe, I'm sure some of you know what I mean. I hope in that moment I savor it. Life will again forever change once Michael is back and I truly hope it brings a positive change to a world that desperately needs it. Whatever happens, I'll be there.
You've said everything I felt and I totally get what you mean. I was also just thinking about it, the scenario of everyone finally knowing MJ is alive, it just felt extremely weird. I don't know how to describe how it was, I guess anything in this hoax is hard to describe because everything is so unconventional to us, even though it's so normal. I feel like this is all I know, probably conditioning but I'm just so stuck in 'this world' that I don't really know the other one. When MJ comes back I don't know how the real feeling will be, kinda excited to find out as well as a little hesitant but I know that from now to whenever it is, I'll keep watching.
Post by: Adi on November 18, 2012, 01:10:09 AM
Interesting thoughts about the timing bec and the upcoming significant dates :icon_cool:
Also - I just wanted to correct my above post too: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429207.html#msg429207
The Update #6.5 was actually on November 30th 2010 at 11:30 - I had my forum time settings incorrect, so for me it was showing at Dec 1st - I have corrected now in my original post
So the last Update we have from TS is from 11/30 at 11:30........11/30/2012 Thriller 30th anniversary......I feel in my bones something significant might happen on that day...maybe?
Post by: curls on November 18, 2012, 02:30:37 AM
If I'm honest, I'm kinda putting my feelings on hold, till something big happens, or 1st Jan 2013, whichever is first, and trying not to allow any specific dates before that to have any more importance than others. Trying, you understand!
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 18, 2012, 03:56:23 AM
Only 6 weeks left in 2012 and I don't know how to feel! Expectant, excited, apprehensive ...... having been met with nothing but a blank wall or ridicule from those I shared my thoughts with early on, I've kept my hoax life pretty much to myself - I have no idea how these people will react to the bam, or to me, when it happens!
If I'm honest, I'm kinda putting my feelings on hold, till something big happens, or 1st Jan 2013, whichever is first, and trying not to allow any specific dates before that to have any more importance than others. Trying, you understand!
i can exactly understand how you feel....in my first few months as a believer, sometime back in maybe 2010, i was exposed to a lot of ridicule because i kept explaining to my friends that Michael's alive and also about all the exploitations he had to face...now i just keep silent
as the days go on, i feel more desperate and helpless and can't wait to have the truth out...people still don't have any idea about Michael's life...they say these hurtful things, and are never really ready to know what the truth is...
Michael's comeback will surely act as a big blow to them...I don't want to sound revengeful, but i really hope they realize how cruel, indifferent, ignorant they've been!
patience is all it takes... :screaming-7365:
Post by: MJonmind on November 18, 2012, 05:38:35 AM
Yes, I get these shivers up my spine too. The suspense is incredible! The worry that nothing will happen, or that Something happens, and I can't get on the site because it's so overloaded with hundreds/thousands trying to log in and post. But excitement that MJ's face will be all over the head-line news again, with people mostly praising, questioning, ( or finding something to mock about :icon_evil:). Hopefully we get to hear him speaking to fans, public, the world! :bowdown: It's probably going to be different and even better than anyone suspects. :affraid: And I would love to hear from his mouth if he was Front --and whoever else he was disguised as...
Yes, I think 2012 as well. TS has been hinting at 2012 since late 2009 with the early re-directs. Didn't want to think that then but here we are now. It's go time.
Yes, the 2012 year was hinted at from the very start by TS. I didn't want to consider that either.....back in 2009, 2012 seemed like a lifetime away. I can't help but feel a little tingle of excitement at the prospect now we are almost at the end of 2012, but am trying not to get too excited because I have let myself down too many times in the past at all the BAM dates I've had in my head which have come and gone.
:michael_jackson-1135:
Post by: curls on November 18, 2012, 06:35:04 AM
@MJonmind - I guess we've all had thoughts like yours! How on earth is it going to happen - what is it going to be like??!! :affraid: :icon_e_surprised: :woohoo2: :icon_lol:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 18, 2012, 06:41:33 AM
Don't get me wrong Thriller4ever, I'm not desperate or helpless and I don't want revenge! I may not be sure of a lot in this hoax but I know I'm right about MJ being alive and I can put up with everyone in my life thinking I'm crazy until it's proved that I'm not!
oh no curls...i didn't mean u were revengeful...LOL! i was just talking about my own personal feelings, that's it... :icon_e_biggrin:
Post by: mattie on November 18, 2012, 06:55:13 AM
Only 6 weeks left in 2012 and I don't know how to feel! Expectant, excited, apprehensive ...... having been met with nothing but a blank wall or ridicule from those I shared my thoughts with early on, I've kept my hoax life pretty much to myself - I have no idea how these people will react to the bam, or to me, when it happens!
If I'm honest, I'm kinda putting my feelings on hold, till something big happens, or 1st Jan 2013, whichever is first, and trying not to allow any specific dates before that to have any more importance than others. Trying, you understand!
i can exactly understand how you feel....in my first few months as a believer, sometime back in maybe 2010, i was exposed to a lot of ridicule because i kept explaining to my friends that Michael's alive and also about all the exploitations he had to face...now i just keep silent
as the days go on, i feel more desperate and helpless and can't wait to have the truth out...people still don't have any idea about Michael's life...they say these hurtful things, and are never really ready to know what the truth is...
Michael's comeback will surely act as a big blow to them...I don't want to sound revengeful, but i really hope they realize how cruel, indifferent, ignorant they've been!
patience is all it takes... :screaming-7365:
This is how i feel to..and my experience is the same.
Sometimes i wunder how many there are like me following everything..and reading but dont post much because of the difficulty with writing English?
I think there is a whole Army of us out there.
I hope Michael knows that we also wil be there.
Speaking for myself..i am waiting for the day he needs me..and than i know what to do.
Mattie
Post by: Sarahli on November 18, 2012, 07:05:14 AM
Post by: bec on November 18, 2012, 08:46:24 AM
Yes indeed, my bad, TS said 2012. Forgot that post. Thank you for reminding Bec.
My pleasure, we are a team, that's what we are all here together for :icon_e_biggrin:
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 18, 2012, 08:56:09 AM
but is it a fact that when all levels will be done by the end of 2012 that the hoax will be finished as well? I mean did TS make a statement that when all levels will be completed by the end of 2012 that there will be a bam? Perhaps there will be a sequel with level #9 of resurrection in 2013 ?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20134.msg348767.html
I apologize if I may have given a negative impression of lack of faith or doubt. My questions were merely based on my search for certainty and facts about the BAM, because I wish for it so wholeheartedly, though I realize that at this moment it is not possible to have certainty and facts. It is just a matter of having faith in Michael, TS and Front. This faith is a fact and that is all what is needed for the BAM. In the meantime whatever happens, I'll wait and watch with FAITH and LOVE. :bearhug: :bearhug: :bearhug:
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 18, 2012, 10:12:43 AM
Same here. I never wanted to think 2012 either, I always thought that would be too long. But like you said, Andrea, here we are. Everyone is right, TS has said 2012 for a long time but I never wanted to believe him.
So maybe it'll go: Level 7 finished on 11/29, Sign 7 is MJ himself (12/6? 12/12?, 12/?), and then Update 7 on 12-21-12.
Man, tick-tock it's coming fast. It's like a 2 ton boulder hurtling toward the Earth, back was right. It's a little scary to be honest
Wow Bec it would be a very good idea if TS' Sing 7 were Michael himself, lol, that makes so much sense to me, imagine: first Michael appears in his own BAM and after his speech TS pops up behind him saying: "Hello everyone, here you have Mr. Michael Jackson aka Sign 7", wow that would be amazing!!.
voiceforthesilent:
Quote
I was also reading on the Front thread and there were comments about the BAM party. I wouldn't be surprised if Michael already knows who we all are and where we live and he'll take that into consideration. He has the means to make sure that if everyone can get to a certain area closer to home that he could provide funding for airfare to Neverland. To me, that would be the most appropriate homecoming for him. JMO.
You are so right, the best Michael's homecoming would be surrounded by those who have been supporting and taking time for his hoax from the beginning, those who have always believed in him, those who have understood why he pulled all this out and those who really love him and care about him and I think he is enough clever to know that.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 18, 2012, 10:14:25 AM
but is it a fact that when all levels will be done by the end of 2012 that the hoax will be finished as well? I mean did TS make a statement that when all levels will be completed by the end of 2012 that there will be a bam? Perhaps there will be a sequel with level #9 of resurrection in 2013 ?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20134.msg348767.html
I apologize if I may have given a negative impression of lack of faith or doubt. My questions were merely based on my search for certainty and facts about the BAM, because I wish for it so wholeheartedly, though I realize that at this moment is not possible to have certainty and facts. It is just a matter of having faith in Michael, TS and Front. This faith is a fact and that is all what is needed for the BAM. In the meantime whatever happens, I'll wait and watch with FAITH and LOVE. :bearhug: :bearhug: :bearhug:
TS did say that if Michael doesn't return by January 1 , 2013 then he can be considered a fake informer, but i strongly believe that come back will be before (or at least on) December 21, 2012...
I've read in few websites that the period after December 21 will bring a remarkable positive change in the world and that the world will be filled with love, so I'm actually linking Michael's comeback with it :) I'm thinking of Michael's words in "This is it" before Man In The Mirror about putting "Love back into the world" and "Love is important"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDmTPtjz34
Post by: scorpionchik on November 18, 2012, 03:07:28 PM
I've read in few websites that the period after December 21 will bring a remarkable positive change in the world and that the world will be filled with love, so I'm actually linking Michael's comeback with it :) I'm thinking of Michael's words in "This is it" before Man In The Mirror about putting "Love back into the world" and "Love is important"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDmTPtjz34
[/quote]
When did TS say that? I missed that, can you paste link. thanks
I do consider TS fake informant though.
Considering 7 is Michael's number, he should come back on 12/25 (7)/12 and TS will be a genuine informant.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 18, 2012, 03:52:52 PM
but is it a fact that when all levels will be done by the end of 2012 that the hoax will be finished as well? I mean did TS make a statement that when all levels will be completed by the end of 2012 that there will be a bam? Perhaps there will be a sequel with level #9 of resurrection in 2013 ?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20134.msg348767.html
I apologize if I may have given a negative impression of lack of faith or doubt. My questions were merely based on my search for certainty and facts about the BAM, because I wish for it so wholeheartedly, though I realize that at this moment is not possible to have certainty and facts. It is just a matter of having faith in Michael, TS and Front. This faith is a fact and that is all what is needed for the BAM. In the meantime whatever happens, I'll wait and watch with FAITH and LOVE. :bearhug: :bearhug: :bearhug:
TS did say that if Michael doesn't return by January 1 , 2013 then he can be considered a fake informer, but i strongly believe that come back will be before (or at least on) December 21, 2012...
I've read in few websites that the period after December 21 will bring a remarkable positive change in the world and that the world will be filled with love, so I'm actually linking Michael's comeback with it :) I'm thinking of Michael's words in "This is it" before Man In The Mirror about putting "Love back into the world" and "Love is important"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDmTPtjz34
I remember those words too more than EVER! and it's always good to hear/read them and we never can hear this important message too often from Michael, which should be spread as much as possible, so thanks for posting the link :icon_e_smile:
Quote
Everybody's doing a great job.http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/a1/this-is-it-script-transcript.html
Let's continue
and believe and have faith.
Give me your all, your endurance,
your patience, and your understanding.
But it's an adventure,
it's a great adventure.
It's nothing to be nervous about.
They just want wonderful
experiences, they want escapism.
We wanna take them places
that they've never been before.
We wanna show them talent
like they've never seen before.
So give your all.
And I love you all.
And we're a family.
Just know that.
We're a family.
That's right.
Amen.
We're putting love back into the world to
remind the world that love is important.
Love is important. To love each other.
We're all one. That's the message.
And take care of the planet.
We have four years to get it right or else
it's irreversible, the damage we've done.
So we have an important
message to give.
Okay? It's important.
But I thank you for your cooperation
so far. Thank you. Big thank you.
Blessings! Blessings to all~Michael Jackson
LOVE
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 18, 2012, 04:01:45 PM
When did TS say that? I missed that, can you paste link. thanks
I do consider TS fake informant though.
Considering 7 is Michael's number, he should come back on 12/25 (7)/12 and TS will be a genuine informant.
Hi, here's TS' quote:
Quote
Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!
and the link: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20134.msg348767.html
LOVE
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 18, 2012, 06:00:02 PM
Quote
Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!
The more I read TS quote the more I notice there is an inconsistency here because if he is not giving an exact year but he is saying that Michael will BAM before Jan 1st 2013 that means he is giving an exact year, or am I crazy? :icon_geek:
Post by: paula-c on November 18, 2012, 06:13:28 PM
Quote
Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!!
I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!
contradictory
Post by: Andrea on November 18, 2012, 06:15:53 PM
Hi, here's TS' quote:QuoteLast but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!
The more I read TS quote the more I notice there is an inconsistency here because if he is not giving an exact year but he is saying that Michael will BAM before Jan 1st 2013 that means he is giving an exact year, or am I crazy? :icon_geek:
TS wrote that in 2011 so that's why he didn't specify 2012, just that MJ would BAM before 1/1/13. The thought that Michael could come back at anytime has been prevalent throughout the hoax. TS left the possibility of it happening in 2011 open with that statement. Very clever.
Post by: ashprak247 on November 18, 2012, 06:33:04 PM
TS said that quote in August 2011, saying thta Michael could bam anytime, but the hoax cannot go on beyond the end of 2012.
This leads me to think that the BAM will happen in the next few weeks leading up to the end of 2012
I can't help but think the 21st of Dec has so much significance like end of world, sun, Mayans, new fresh start etc.
Michael could bam then or even before as I think the end of novemeber on the Thriller 30th anniversary is a possible bam date = Michaels Thriller 2???
All in all like michael said its been a great adventure with all these clues.
Michael always planned to come back I feel otherwise all these clues by the family and friends wouldn't be here.
Michael were ready when you are to come back in and BAM!!!!
:moonwalk_:
Post by: bec on November 18, 2012, 06:54:17 PM
QuoteLast but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!!
I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!
contradictory
Do you read it contradictory? It reads as the same thing to me.
Before the end of 2012: any time/day prior to but not including 1/1/2013.
By January 1, 2013: indicates the deadline is 1/1/13. As soon as the clock ticks one second past 11:59:59 on 12/31/12, it's 1/1/13 at 12:00 am and times up.
The end of 2012 is on December 31st, 2012 at 11:59:59 pm. The very next second it instantly becomes January 1st, 2013. I read TS's words to indicate bamsday could be any day up to and including 12/31/12, down to the last minute/second, considering the second statement, "I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!" was written as emphasis to the other, earlier prediction, "I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!!".
However, I do have to say when I get a bill it usually states somewhere on the invoice "payment due by xx/xx/xx" and if I pay on that day it is considered on time and not late so, hmm. But if my bill said "payable before 1/1/13, I'd have it there by 12/31/12 or I'd expect to receive a late charge.
I hope it becomes an irrelevant question in time, if you know what I mean.
Post by: paula-c on November 18, 2012, 07:34:15 PM
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 18, 2012, 07:59:01 PM
Yep - it will be a day of celebration for most and for others....they will have egg all over their faces. Can't wait.
Blessings to you all and God bless Michael and his family.
Post by: TS_comments on November 18, 2012, 08:51:22 PM
... And good point about Candid Camera not being live. Hmm.
And here is a statement from Allen Font, on the need for a legal release to be signed before putting someone on the air.
"I told him what we had done, I let him hear the record back, I paid him for his time, I had him sign a release, which permits us to use that sequence on the air …" {~5:30, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpj9j37zSfw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpj9j37zSfw)}
Post by: bec on November 18, 2012, 09:06:14 PM
... And good point about Candid Camera not being live. Hmm.
And here is a statement from Allen Font, on the need for a legal release to be signed before putting someone on the air.
"I told him what we had done, I let him hear the record back, I paid him for his time, I had him sign a release, which permits us to use that sequence on the air …" {~5:30, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpj9j37zSfw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpj9j37zSfw)}
I concede the point. Nice investigatory skills, TS.
Post by: TS_comments on November 18, 2012, 09:10:19 PM
But if it was not a real court, not operating under real judicial laws (and was merely an entertainment movie), then WHY the need for the word "alleged"? NO OTHER MOVIE (or TV show) has been found, using the world "alleged"--so why would it be needed in this case, if there was no need to in other court movies?... "NO OTHER MOVIE...other court movies" ...interesting wording there TS.
We could perhaps write it off as merely a hoax "clue"; but that seems like a rather shallow explanation, especially since it came at the END of the whole trial--where many clues had already been given, and what was the need to slip in one more clue at the end? Just for fun? And even if one more last minute clue was needed: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:judge-smiley:
Yes; and interesting also that these words came under the hypothetical situation, which was mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph: "But if it was not a real court ..."
So IF it was only a movie, then (and only then) no OTHER movies or court movies use "alleged" in the verdict. There seems to be no valid reason for this anomaly. However, if it was NOT only a movie, then there is a simple explanation for the "alleged"--to keep things legal, since Michael Joseph Jackson was not legally and actually a victim (he was merely an alleged victim).
Post by: Adi on November 18, 2012, 09:16:27 PM
Interesting Candid Camera video.
Not only was Michael Joseph Jackson an "alleged victim" but what ever occurred to the alleged victim took place on an alleged date too.
I still haven't been able to find an entertainment movie about a trial/court case where this term is used.
I can't help but think that the use of "alleged" will lead to who or what went to UCLA that day if it wasn't MJ.
Post by: TS_comments on November 18, 2012, 09:23:50 PM
... Even the Jackson family quit talking about conspiracy and the "real" murderer over a year ago.
Yes, and TS was also silent for nearly a year. But as I said, it's time for things to start rumbling again ...
And in response to your question about this seeming inconsistency--only TS threads discussing serious things (sting, etc)--the man himself agreed that there is indeed "seriousness".
I think MJonmind put it pretty well:
Quote
You know where MJ is talking about Sony, his finances, business dealings, he would say, “It’s a very delicate situation.” And when he sings, TDRCAU, he is talking about TPTB, the NWO gang, bankers, all those in ruling positions who rob, cheat, lie, step on people to get what they want. I don’t think TS or MJ would openly say ‘they’ are a sting target—perhaps too dangerous. I think the evil people behind MJ’s false allegations and part of the ultimate target of the big STING, could be shown like a pyramid. At the bottom were Sneddon, Dimond, Grace, Even Chandler, the Arvizos. Next level could be Sony, Catholic Church, Racist powerful people. Next level possibly bankers, Bilderbergers, Illuminati. Next level IDK, alien/demonic powers. I say this because of 2 of Front’s early posts: (TS’ Sign #1 on the coming EOW and Michael Archangel=Jesus verifies this){http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg428291.html#msg428291 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg428291.html#msg428291)}
Post by: Andrea on November 18, 2012, 09:40:57 PM
Judge Pastor announced months before the trial began that it would be televised, live. Witnesses were not caught unaware on camera and there were a couple witnesses who seemed very aware of being on camera. I would think that if a witness didn't agree to be on camera, they could've been blurred out, or something like that.
Post by: Andrea on November 18, 2012, 10:07:11 PM
But if it was not a real court, not operating under real judicial laws (and was merely an entertainment movie), then WHY the need for the word "alleged"? NO OTHER MOVIE (or TV show) has been found, using the world "alleged"--so why would it be needed in this case, if there was no need to in other court movies?... "NO OTHER MOVIE...other court movies" ...interesting wording there TS.
We could perhaps write it off as merely a hoax "clue"; but that seems like a rather shallow explanation, especially since it came at the END of the whole trial--where many clues had already been given, and what was the need to slip in one more clue at the end? Just for fun? And even if one more last minute clue was needed: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:judge-smiley:
Yes; and interesting also that these words came under the hypothetical situation, which was mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph: "But if it was not a real court ..."
So IF it was only a movie, then (and only then) no OTHER movies or court movies use "alleged" in the verdict. There seems to be no valid reason for this anomaly. However, if it was NOT only a movie, then there is a simple explanation for the "alleged"--to keep things legal, since Michael Joseph Jackson was not legally and actually a victim (he was merely an alleged victim).
You're right, and I think the movie is one aspect of the trial. Can't footage from a televised trial be used in a movie, without having permission from those who participated in the trial - like witnesses, court people, etc? Because it's already public record. Like in movies where they show televised footage of real world events - like Presidential speeches, interviews, famous people doing stuff, car chases, other court footage from famous trials. There are a number of movies that use actual footage, for whatever reasons.
A valid reason for using the word "alleged" in the verdict when referring to victim and date is a hoax court aspect. It sort of annuls the whole trial, imo.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 18, 2012, 11:37:35 PM
But if it was not a real court, not operating under real judicial laws (and was merely an entertainment movie), then WHY the need for the word "alleged"? NO OTHER MOVIE (or TV show) has been found, using the world "alleged"--so why would it be needed in this case, if there was no need to in other court movies?... "NO OTHER MOVIE...other court movies" ...interesting wording there TS.
We could perhaps write it off as merely a hoax "clue"; but that seems like a rather shallow explanation, especially since it came at the END of the whole trial--where many clues had already been given, and what was the need to slip in one more clue at the end? Just for fun? And even if one more last minute clue was needed: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:judge-smiley:
Yes; and interesting also that these words came under the hypothetical situation, which was mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph: "But if it was not a real court ..."
So IF it was only a movie, then (and only then) no OTHER movies or court movies use "alleged" in the verdict. There seems to be no valid reason for this anomaly. However, if it was NOT only a movie, then there is a simple explanation for the "alleged"--to keep things legal, since Michael Joseph Jackson was not legally and actually a victim (he was merely an alleged victim).
You're right, and I think the movie is one aspect of the trial. Can't footage from a televised trial be used in a movie, without having permission from those who participated in the trial - like witnesses, court people, etc? Because it's already public record. Like in movies where they show televised footage of real world events - like Presidential speeches, interviews, famous people doing stuff, car chases, other court footage from famous trials. There are a number of movies that use actual footage, for whatever reasons.
A valid reason for using the word "alleged" in the verdict when referring to victim and date is a hoax court aspect. It sort of annuls the whole trial, imo.
i agree with Andrea...
A trial ending up with the judgement "alleged victim" and "alleged date" seems paradoxical to me.
Michael has been legal throughout the trial...especially using the name "Michael Joseph Jackson" instead of "Michael Joe Jackson" (which is his legal name). And as "Michael Joseph Jackson" is not the real victim, the word "Alleged" has been used. sounds pretty legal to me! Hoax Court...
Post by: bec on November 18, 2012, 11:42:14 PM
Quote
A trial ending up with the judgement "alleged victim" and "alleged date" seems paradoxical to me.,
that's difficult to argue against. You're right, how does a real trial get held over an alleged incident involving an alleged victim? These are the court's own words, not our's. That's a good argument.
Post by: ellyd on November 18, 2012, 11:48:37 PM
Pretrial and throughout court, "alleged" would not raise any eyebrows.
"Alleged" has to be clarified into "yes" or "no" during trial.
If this is not achieved in a verdict, the trial has not seen a true finish.
Post by: bec on November 18, 2012, 11:55:32 PM
It's the timing that makes the difference.
Pretrial and throughout court, "alleged" would not raise any eyebrows.
"Alleged" has to be clarified into "yes" or "no" during trial.
If this is not achieved in a verdict, the trial has not seen a true finish.
Oh you're right. All trials are essentially held over alleged incidents involving alleged victims. Duh, nevermind.
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2012, 12:03:07 AM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 19, 2012, 02:13:55 AM
I'm certainly no Lawyer, and I presume MJ has had a very astute legal team assisting him in this, but wouldn't "alleged victim" and "alleged date" being read during the verdict also go towards covering them in a legal sense if it was a sting court?
i want to quote this:
So tired... have been wanting to jump in so many places with no timE.
I still think he went to an airport. MJ AIR notwithstanding, I don't think he got on an airplane. Pay as you go cell phones seem to provide some measure of security against survellience...Pay, use, discard........
I also still think it is a sting and hoax. I believe the sting has multiple layers;the trial was necessary and gave opportunity to show not only how irresponsible the media is (really? all the legal anomolies in the trial and the likes of COURT TV "journalists" don't question anything because the coverage is worth so much money?--not really surprised anymore). Then we have all the investigation taking a look at the state of courts and the shoddy state of activities and misuse of power-- harkening back to 2005 trial and Sneddon (bearing in mind that Michael was only one of his victims)-- and all the institutionalized cover ups to support the continuation of such corruption. We have had our eyes open to a range of organized crime and corruption, from the Interfor Report re embezzlement, the FBI being given documents regarding organized efforts to litigate Michael into bankruptcy in 2006,
to Chancery Club and Bet Tzedek Rico suits http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/groups/topic/view/group_id/20/topic_id/50
to acts of commission in Santa Barbara County and Los Angles County
The corruption in the State Bar of California http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/groups/topic/view/group_id/20/topic_id/49
and the US Supreme court looking at the corruption in the California Supreme Court.
Then there is all the business corruption surrounding Michael... which really needed Michael dead to fully expose since TPTB couldn't blame him any longer for things THEY did (really, all close people to Michael changed over the month before he died?--well good to keep enemies closer to give them rope to hang themselves with).........So MUCH business corruption its really unbeLIEvable----and even tho there have been attempts to expose this corruption, it is allowed to continue...And frankly, the activity is just indicative of what is happening to ALOT of us-- using information to use identities to invest in bogus deals to launder money etc....Same thing that brought down Keith Corbain's estate is happening everywhere.
Then there are all the evidence of and hints at further real physical threats of harm to the family. Now then, this is a family that had to FIGHT to get charges pressed against the man (Bohana) that murdered Dee Dee, Tito's ex-wife in 1994, despite clear evidence that pointed to foul play. And from what I read,it needed persistance to have the DA office take another look at the case. But I digress
I could go on and on, but my very tired brain needs to stop-- I know I have only mentioned little bits of so many things that have been swirling around. I feel the sting is multi-faceted and has many targets. Some may have been direct and more personal, others indirect (heck look at so many things that have developed-- Murdock exposed, Goldman Sacs exposed etc etc etc) but no less personal and relevant to lots of people.
I just cant see the reason for the whole hoax to not have a serious sting component to it, as well as being intriguing.
ok, I have blathered on too much and not even touched on so many other aspects of things, but my eyes are trying to close, so I will stop now!
Thanks for you patience :icon_redface:
so maybe, a sting in a hoax... :michael_jackson-1135:
Post by: MJonmind on November 19, 2012, 04:21:33 AM
Quote
I'm probably late to this party but the printed info on the MJ FB page is:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6NHsTbJcRM&playnext=1&list=PL85938E18C2E9D03D&feature=results_mainQuoteDescription
This is the official Michael Jackson Facebook page monitored and managed by the Estate of Michael Jackson with support of Sony Music Entertainment. Fans are encouraged to express the memories, join the conversation and express their thoughts and opinions in good taste and in accordance with respect for Michael Jackson and other fans alike. We strive to maintain a friendly atmosphere that is welcoming to all community members. That means keeping conversation on topic and within the scope of Michael Jackson as an entertainer and philanthropist. Profanity, degrading comments, off topic conversations will be removed and users subject to being banned.
Monitored n managed by the Estate. So Front=The Estate.
The Estate=Branca n McLain.
So there's no question, really, that Branca n McLain are in on the hoax.
Again, I'm sure this is only news to me because I tend to be slow on stuff like this. I just haven't seen it spelled out as of recent.
However, one would think Branca n McLain would have better things to do, being high powered lawyers n all, then to babysit a FB page on a nearly daily basis. Not that it would have to be one of them, per say. Just interesting.
Ps. FB has recorded that the page was launched on 12/19/2007.
Thanks TS for picking out my post, but I’m curious that though I’ve listed Sony as among the harmful forces towards MJ, it was surely Sony that introduced the sequel to TII, of TIAI where it was discovered the redirect site, and our introduction to you, our guide and friend. In fact Sony could be supporting and involved with the whole hoax, (see Bec's post above) IDK. The issue MJ had in 2002 was over Tommy Mattola, not Sony, as he even said at his 45 birthday party. At 7:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6NHsTbJcRM&playnext=1&list=PL85938E18C2E9D03D&feature=results_main So I’m still not clear on that.
Adi
Quote
Quote
Interesting Candid Camera video.People (kids) can be so naturally funny and witty—as opposed to a planned script—and fast forward to today’s crazy number of reality shows. There, ordinary people can become overnight celebrities, for example the Kardashians, if their performance is enjoyed by the viewers. MJ talked about taking film to the next level, pioneering it. This hoax is a combination of candid camera, written script, audience participation (us), and so much more! The Murray trial perhaps contained all three.
Does anyone remember a TMZ story, of this guy walking on the street, pictured accidentally in the background behind Conrad Murray, and he complained that he hadn't given his consent?
Post by: curls on November 19, 2012, 04:38:42 AM
Playing DA here (that's Devil's Advocate, not District Atorney!) and running with the idea that this was a real trial, this begs the question why they let it go unchallenged:
1. From the defense point of view this would have been the ideal get-out-of-jail-free card - you cannot convict my client if the victim and date are mere allegations i.e. not proven. So why did Chernoff not kick up a fuss??
2. From the prosecution's side, was it a case of ignore it, so what if we're going to put a man in prison on the basis of mere allegations, as long as we win the case? (Didn't Walgren get some huge promotion in the wake of his 'success' in this case? :suspect:)
Kind of makes a mockery of the whole trial doesn't it? I suspect this is the point.
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2012, 05:14:14 AM
Quote
From the defense point of view this would have been the ideal get-out-of-jail-free card - you cannot convict my client if the victim and date are mere allegations i.e. not proven. So why did Chernoff not kick up a fuss??
Actually that is a really good point curls...why indeed did they not pick up on that? As you say, semantics is a big part of practising Law and you would expect at least one of the Defence team would have made a fuss about the use of "alleged" & perhaps used it to try to get Dr M off on this.......but as I said earlier - I'm not a lawyer so I really don't know.
As for the Prosecution.....hmmm not sure as to why they said nothing. If they were in on "it" then that would explain why. However, if they weren't in the know, then perhaps what you say is on the right track?!
Post by: TS_comments on November 19, 2012, 07:38:25 AM
But if it was not a real court, not operating under real judicial laws (and was merely an entertainment movie), then WHY the need for the word "alleged"? NO OTHER MOVIE (or TV show) has been found, using the world "alleged"--so why would it be needed in this case, if there was no need to in other court movies?... "NO OTHER MOVIE...other court movies" ...interesting wording there TS.
We could perhaps write it off as merely a hoax "clue"; but that seems like a rather shallow explanation, especially since it came at the END of the whole trial--where many clues had already been given, and what was the need to slip in one more clue at the end? Just for fun? And even if one more last minute clue was needed: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:judge-smiley:
Yes; and interesting also that these words came under the hypothetical situation, which was mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph: "But if it was not a real court ..."
So IF it was only a movie, then (and only then) no OTHER movies or court movies use "alleged" in the verdict. There seems to be no valid reason for this anomaly. However, if it was NOT only a movie, then there is a simple explanation for the "alleged"--to keep things legal, since Michael Joseph Jackson was not legally and actually a victim (he was merely an alleged victim).
You're right, and I think the movie is one aspect of the trial. Can't footage from a televised trial be used in a movie, without having permission from those who participated in the trial - like witnesses, court people, etc? Because it's already public record. Like in movies where they show televised footage of real world events - like Presidential speeches, interviews, famous people doing stuff, car chases, other court footage from famous trials. There are a number of movies that use actual footage, for whatever reasons.
Not sure if you remember the beginning of this discussion. The original question was whether witnesses, jury, etc, could be used as "actors" in a mere movie (not a sting), if the people themselves did not know that it was fake (like Candid Camera). They may know in advance that it would be televised, but this does not mean that they would know in advance that it was merely entertainment (if indeed that's all it was). Legally, it's almost certain that the "actors" would need to know and agree in advance, not merely know that it would be televised, but also know that it was fake--UNLESS there is a serious sting involved, then that would change everything.
P.S. If the sting was only on the media and fans (and public), and not dealing with one or more areas of illegal corruption, then a simple movie would do the job (no need for an FBI sting, no need for "alleged", no need for jury to go down the toilet, etc. Unfortunately, the media telling lies and the fans and public believing the lies is NOT illegal (and therefore a sting on them would not need to have a real legal court involved, etc).
Post by: TS_comments on November 19, 2012, 07:46:09 AM
... Thanks TS for picking out my post, but I’m curious that though I’ve listed Sony as among the harmful forces towards MJ, it was surely Sony that introduced the sequel to TII, of TIAI where it was discovered the redirect site, and our introduction to you, our guide and friend. In fact Sony could be supporting and involved with the whole hoax, (see Bec's post above) IDK. The issue MJ had in 2002 was over Tommy Mattola, not Sony, as he even said at his 45 birthday party. At 7:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6NHsTbJcRM&playnext=1&list=PL85938E18C2E9D03D&feature=results_main So I’m still not clear on that.
If you have read all my previous posts, and remembered them all (a lot to remember, lol): I have said that MJ has a few key people in on the hoax, including at Sony. Also, as I have said before, just because I redirect to or quote some post, does not mean that I agree with every word in the post--only the main ideas.
Post by: TS_comments on November 19, 2012, 08:06:08 AM
... A valid reason for using the word "alleged" in the verdict when referring to victim and date is a hoax court aspect. It sort of annuls the whole trial, imo.
More than 100 pages into this thread, it seems that I need to clarify the definitions of hoax court and sting court.
Hoax court = entertainment, punk the media and public, etc.
Sting court = FBI doing serious investigation into illegal criminal activities, etc.
The question on this level is whether the Murray trial was hoax court, or sting court, or both. I have recently stated that it is both (and have indicated the same, all along). However, don't believe it just because I say so; go by the evidence that we have access to. And that evidence includes the usage of the word "alleged" in the verdict. So if it was MERELY a hoax court (not a real court involved, only a rented courtroom and actors for a movie): then there would be no need for the word "alleged" in the verdict (and no need for jury to go down the toilet, and there WOULD be a need for the witnesses and jury to know in advance that they were merely acting in a movie). I hope that this is getting clearer, so that we can get back to the question of what went to UCLA.
Post by: TS_comments on November 19, 2012, 08:09:57 AM
Fire Station 71, Shift C: Jeff Mills (Captain), Richard Senneff, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron, Sean Mills.
Did anyone know that Martin Blount was not from the same shift (he was from the A Shift)?
:icon_e_confused:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 19, 2012, 08:12:37 AM
But if it was not a real court, not operating under real judicial laws (and was merely an entertainment movie), then WHY the need for the word "alleged"? NO OTHER MOVIE (or TV show) has been found, using the world "alleged"--so why would it be needed in this case, if there was no need to in other court movies?... "NO OTHER MOVIE...other court movies" ...interesting wording there TS.
We could perhaps write it off as merely a hoax "clue"; but that seems like a rather shallow explanation, especially since it came at the END of the whole trial--where many clues had already been given, and what was the need to slip in one more clue at the end? Just for fun? And even if one more last minute clue was needed: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:judge-smiley:
Yes; and interesting also that these words came under the hypothetical situation, which was mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph: "But if it was not a real court ..."
So IF it was only a movie, then (and only then) no OTHER movies or court movies use "alleged" in the verdict. There seems to be no valid reason for this anomaly. However, if it was NOT only a movie, then there is a simple explanation for the "alleged"--to keep things legal, since Michael Joseph Jackson was not legally and actually a victim (he was merely an alleged victim).
You're right, and I think the movie is one aspect of the trial. Can't footage from a televised trial be used in a movie, without having permission from those who participated in the trial - like witnesses, court people, etc? Because it's already public record. Like in movies where they show televised footage of real world events - like Presidential speeches, interviews, famous people doing stuff, car chases, other court footage from famous trials. There are a number of movies that use actual footage, for whatever reasons.
Not sure if you remember the beginning of this discussion. The original question was whether witnesses, jury, etc, could be used as "actors" in a mere movie (not a sting), if the people themselves did not know that it was fake (like Candid Camera). They may know in advance that it would be televised, but this does not mean that they would know in advance that it was merely entertainment (if indeed that's all it was). Legally, it's almost certain that the "actors" would need to know and agree in advance, not merely know that it would be televised, but also know that it was fake--UNLESS there is a serious sting involved, then that would change everything.
P.S. If the sting was only on the media and fans (and public), and not dealing with one or more areas of illegal corruption, then a simple movie would do the job (no need for an FBI sting, no need for "alleged", no need for jury to go down the toilet, etc. Unfortunately, the media telling lies and the fans and public believing the lies is NOT illegal (and therefore a sting on them would not need to have a real legal court involved, etc).
there have been many movies in that past talk about the general public becoming aware of the injustices done by the those in power, revolting against them, and finally succeeding. But somewhere in people's minds it has been established that "It only happens in the movies".
Even if, now any person addresses a large audience and says that a revolution is necessary, very few people come forward to actually support.
Being just and fair has only been limited to a person's imagination, but when it comes to real life, most of the them want to save their own skin and believe what the majority believes, and be on the "track".
So, coming back to the point, I feel that mere movies (which are for mere entertainment) will not (and never) have the required affect on the public. And as Michael says, the movies needed to be taken into the next level. And that's what maybe Michael did...there are some who know and co-operate, whereas on the other hand, there are others who are just watching and are really confused.
With the deliberate 'loop-hole' in the verdict of the trial, this hoax( in my opinion) is telling the audience to think and not just see and believe. The public needs to have their ground shaken to come back to reality and know what's happening with them and also what they've been doing...
P.S.. Sorry if I misunderstood your post. any which ways, this is part of my understanding of the whole situation...
Post by: BeTheChange on November 19, 2012, 08:48:07 AM
I hope that this is getting clearer, so that we can get back to the question of what went to UCLA.
Was that a 'hint' or did you just forget to add "/who"...or were both implied? lol
I've never believed that all 'this' was merely for a fan and/or media sting...that never made sense given, as TS said, ignorance isn't illegal. A 'sting' court made sense all along; however, any potential 'targets' fizzled out over the course of the trial (i.e. nothing really came of those we thought could be 'targets')...but, then again, we are only privy to a fraction of what's going on behind the scenes, especially IF the FBI is involved (and there's been several 'leads' pointing to their involvement).
I'm still unsure of the jury's role in all of this...TS has mentioned them a few times. Given the verdict 'leak' to TMZ...I had thought that perhaps the jury had been infiltrated by a 'plant'...which would further shed light on the inadequacy of the court system. IF there is a sting going on, then having a 'plant' in the jury makes sense (assuming the entire jury wasn't in on it)...and that would've been relatively easy to do IF the DA, defense, and judge were in on it. The use of the word 'alleged' in the verdict, IMO, gives further credence to all 3 (DA, defense and judge) being in on it....or, as mentioned by others, it would've been contested (if any of them are not in on it and didn't notice it lol, then we can add another huge bullet point to the incompetency of the court system).
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: paula-c on November 19, 2012, 09:34:15 AM
Post by: Andrea on November 19, 2012, 09:37:04 AM
But if it was not a real court, not operating under real judicial laws (and was merely an entertainment movie), then WHY the need for the word "alleged"? NO OTHER MOVIE (or TV show) has been found, using the world "alleged"--so why would it be needed in this case, if there was no need to in other court movies?... "NO OTHER MOVIE...other court movies" ...interesting wording there TS.
We could perhaps write it off as merely a hoax "clue"; but that seems like a rather shallow explanation, especially since it came at the END of the whole trial--where many clues had already been given, and what was the need to slip in one more clue at the end? Just for fun? And even if one more last minute clue was needed: why would "alleged" be a prime candidate for the final clue? Why not something, anything--other than a LEGAL term, that covers LEGAL situations??
:judge-smiley:
Yes; and interesting also that these words came under the hypothetical situation, which was mentioned at the beginning of the paragraph: "But if it was not a real court ..."
So IF it was only a movie, then (and only then) no OTHER movies or court movies use "alleged" in the verdict. There seems to be no valid reason for this anomaly. However, if it was NOT only a movie, then there is a simple explanation for the "alleged"--to keep things legal, since Michael Joseph Jackson was not legally and actually a victim (he was merely an alleged victim).
You're right, and I think the movie is one aspect of the trial. Can't footage from a televised trial be used in a movie, without having permission from those who participated in the trial - like witnesses, court people, etc? Because it's already public record. Like in movies where they show televised footage of real world events - like Presidential speeches, interviews, famous people doing stuff, car chases, other court footage from famous trials. There are a number of movies that use actual footage, for whatever reasons.
Not sure if you remember the beginning of this discussion. The original question was whether witnesses, jury, etc, could be used as "actors" in a mere movie (not a sting), if the people themselves did not know that it was fake (like Candid Camera). They may know in advance that it would be televised, but this does not mean that they would know in advance that it was merely entertainment (if indeed that's all it was). Legally, it's almost certain that the "actors" would need to know and agree in advance, not merely know that it would be televised, but also know that it was fake--UNLESS there is a serious sting involved, then that would change everything.
P.S. If the sting was only on the media and fans (and public), and not dealing with one or more areas of illegal corruption, then a simple movie would do the job (no need for an FBI sting, no need for "alleged", no need for jury to go down the toilet, etc. Unfortunately, the media telling lies and the fans and public believing the lies is NOT illegal (and therefore a sting on them would not need to have a real legal court involved, etc).
I remembered the beginning of your discussion TS, sorry if I went away from that. I just had the above thought pop into my head last night and wasn't sure if it had been covered. Thank you for addressing my question.
I honestly don't know if a mere movie could use "actors" without their knowledge. I believe some of the witnesses already knew the truth, like Kenny Ortega for example. He knows (imo) so he was acting, willingly. But were ALL the witnesses privy to MJ being alive? The jury? Probably not. The addition of a sting court allows the "actors" to be deliberately left in the dark since a sting, by definition, is a deceptive operation. Is that closer to the mark or am I missing the point again? :icon_neutral:
Post by: Andrea on November 19, 2012, 09:45:05 AM
... A valid reason for using the word "alleged" in the verdict when referring to victim and date is a hoax court aspect. It sort of annuls the whole trial, imo.
More than 100 pages into this thread, it seems that I need to clarify the definitions of hoax court and sting court.
Hoax court = entertainment, punk the media and public, etc.
Sting court = FBI doing serious investigation into illegal criminal activities, etc.
The question on this level is whether the Murray trial was hoax court, or sting court, or both. I have recently stated that it is both (and have indicated the same, all along). However, don't believe it just because I say so; go by the evidence that we have access to. And that evidence includes the usage of the word "alleged" in the verdict. So if it was MERELY a hoax court (not a real court involved, only a rented courtroom and actors for a movie): then there would be no need for the word "alleged" in the verdict (and no need for jury to go down the toilet, and there WOULD be a need for the witnesses and jury to know in advance that they were merely acting in a movie). I hope that this is getting clearer, so that we can get back to the question of what went to UCLA.
You're right, poor wording on my part, thanks again for clarifying.
I had suggested last year in the thread that was debating hoax court vs sting court that it was both and I still think that's quite likely. It's been a year now since the trial ended so I wonder if the sting is still ongoing, if the trial was only part of it. I believe this whole hoax, trial included, has so many different aspects that MJ is covered legally no matter what and will be free to return with no legal ramifications. But you are correct TS, if the trial was merely a hoax court or a movie with a rented set and players, there would be no need for the word "alleged" because it wouldn't be real anyways.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 19, 2012, 09:48:41 AM
1- The trial was a HOAX court + STING court because it's clear that FBI was involved investigating criminal activities.
2- That there was not a real body most probably a dummy on the stretcher heading to UCLA.
3- TS doesn't want to talk about BAM, why? is it still far away? does he want to distract us from BAM in order to get us get shocked by Michael? :icon_mrgreen: :smiley_abuv: :affraid:
Post by: paula-c on November 19, 2012, 10:13:42 AM
Well after reading all these TS_comments posts I have learned something for sure:
1- The trial was a HOAX court + STING court because it's clear that FBI was involved investigating criminal activities.
2- That there was not a real body most probably a dummy on the stretcher heading to UCLA.
3- TS doesn't want to talk about BAM, why? is it still far away? does he want to distract us from BAM in order to get shocked by Michael? :icon_mrgreen: :smiley_abuv: :affraid:
I'm inclined to think that there was no real body, the June 25 be doctors involved waiting for the time indicated in that arrives "the body" to the hospital.
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ivcomp10.jpg)
Post by: bec on November 19, 2012, 10:17:46 AM
I'm still confused as to what the alleged sting would be on. If the FBI sets up a sting, I'm thinking the typical, drug sales. An agent poses as a buyer and solicits a dealer to make an exchange. The dealer is set up by the agent, who completes the transaction n then the dealer is nabbed.
In the case of this court case being an alleged sting, who's playing the part of the buyer and who is the dealer?
Is the defense team the buyer and the DA is the dealer?
If so, why is MJ involved in setting up LA County in a sting when it was Santa Barbara County DA that dogged him all those years and prosecuted him in 2005? That doesn't jive with me/ I don't see a motive for MJ's involvement or for MJ to participate and surround the situation with his life's work project to go after a county he isn't personally passionate about teaching a lesson to. Not that I am privy to MJ's personal passions, but after 3.5 years of research, I am at a loss as to envision MJ's being passionate about setting up LA County for anything.
(Not to mention, the LA County DA's office is responsible for the missing N on the gurney pic slide powerpoint, which indicates they have been infiltrated anyway--in on it on some level, so the whole office certainly isn't the target.)
LA County vs Santa Barbara County is where this whole Murray court doesn't connect to the false allegations, in my opinion, and it leads me to a sting court dead end. I can't come up with a motive for MJ's involvement in such a project.
And for whatever reason, I just can't wrap my head around the concept of another target as yet unidentified. With all the clues, hints, and whispers over 3.5 years, you'd think it would be a little more obvious to us who the target might be. If we have to dig this hard and reach this far to come up with hypotheses they are probably unfounded.
Because as it is, we are all at a loss, it seems, and TS is going to have to just spell it out for us (silver platter anyone?), and are we just going to accept him at his word? We know TS don't play that way.
So maybe he just set up the jury. A jury is made up of normal, every day people, a cross section of the population, supposed to represent average Americans (a jury of our "peers"). We will all recall there were several MJ fans on that jury (at least latent "fans"--those who appreciated MJ and his music, you'll recall TMZ's article briefly describing some select jurors). This jury encompasses in cross section the fans and the general public. So sting still = on the fans/general public (and always the media).
These fans and members of the general public scrutinized the information presented, in detail, and STILL found Murray guilty. We suspect that the ARG we are playing is designed to capture the attention of the curious and test our ability to decipher truth from BS and largely the entire MJ fan base has failed. That's why I have long defined the sting as being on the fans(/general public/media by proxy), so if TS wants to call it a sting court because it satisfied the same agenda in a very public way (in televised court proceedings), once and for all, mission accomplished. After nearly 2.5 years (as of 2011 by verdict time), the fans/general public (as represented in cross section) failed the test/got caught by the sting operation-- they found Murray guilty.
If the FBI is involved, I continue to believe, based on the available information so far, that it is only to provide clearance (legality) to MJ to proceed with his life's work.
Post by: bec on November 19, 2012, 10:22:52 AM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 19, 2012, 10:44:05 AM
The jury wouldn't need to be gotten consent from (to appear in the movie) as they were never on camera nor identified by name.
I'm still confused as to what the alleged sting would be on. If the FBI sets up a sting, I'm thinking the typical, drug sales. An agent poses as a buyer and solicits a dealer to make an exchange. The dealer is set up by the agent, who completes the transaction n then the dealer is nabbed.
In the case of this court case being an alleged sting, who's playing the part of the buyer and who is the dealer?
Is the defense team the buyer and the DA is the dealer?
If so, why is MJ involved in setting up LA County in a sting when it was Santa Barbara County DA that dogged him all those years and prosecuted him in 2005? That doesn't jive with me/ I don't see a motive for MJ's involvement or for MJ to participate and surround the situation with his life's work project to go after a county he isn't personally passionate about teaching a lesson to. Not that I am privy to MJ's personal passions, but after 3.5 years of research, I am at a loss as to envision MJ's being passionate about setting up LA County for anything.
(Not to mention, the LA County DA's office is responsible for the missing N on the gurney pic slide powerpoint, which indicates they have been infiltrated anyway--in on it on some level, so the whole office certainly isn't the target.)
LA County vs Santa Barbara County is where this whole Murray court doesn't connect to the false allegations, in my opinion, and it leads me to a sting court dead end. I can't come up with a motive for MJ's involvement in such a project.
And for whatever reason, I just can't wrap my head around the concept of another target as yet unidentified. With all the clues, hints, and whispers over 3.5 years, you'd think it would be a little more obvious to us who the target might be. If we have to dig this hard and reach this far to come up with hypotheses they are probably unfounded.
Because as it is, we are all at a loss, it seems, and TS is going to have to just spell it out for us (silver platter anyone?), and are we just going to accept him at his word? We know TS don't play that way.
So maybe he just set up the jury. A jury is made up of normal, every day people, a cross section of the population, supposed to represent average Americans (a jury of our "peers"). We will all recall there were several MJ fans on that jury (at least latent "fans"--those who appreciated MJ and his music, you'll recall TMZ's article briefly describing some select jurors). This jury encompasses in cross section the fans and the general public. So sting still = on the fans/general public (and always the media).
These fans and members of the general public scrutinized the information presented, in detail, and STILL found Murray guilty. We suspect that the ARG we are playing is designed to capture the attention of the curious and test our ability to decipher truth from BS and largely the entire MJ fan base has failed. That's why I have long defined the sting as being on the fans(/general public/media by proxy), so if TS wants to call it a sting court because it satisfied the same agenda in a very public way (in televised court proceedings), once and for all, mission accomplished. After nearly 2.5 years (as of 2011 by verdict time), the fans/general public (as represented in cross section) failed the test/got caught by the sting operation-- they found Murray guilty.
If the FBI is involved, I continue to believe, based on the available information so far, that it is only to provide clearance (legality) to MJ to proceed with his life's work.
we're definitely having a missing puzzle piece here...a sting on fans/public/media maybe a part of a bigger sting operation...
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 19, 2012, 11:21:58 AM
Post by: suspicious mind on November 19, 2012, 11:33:10 AM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 19, 2012, 11:37:09 AM
http://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/courtnews/Uploads/1420129281042RulesRegardingFilming.htm
There was filming of the audience in the trial tho? and in the document i have add , says: It is not permissible to film the audience, or anyone sitting beyond the ‘rail’ (the barrier between the public seating area and the area where counsel tables are located in) in the courtroom. Tight shots must be used to avoid capturing these images.
Would it be admitted when it was a real Court?
I am short in time and havent searched for more info on this site, and maybe you have seen it before but i will add this website aswell who knows there is more to find on this.
http://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/courtnews/ui/main.aspx
as far as i remember, the audience was not shown...only the view where the lawyers are sitting...anyways, it's definitely not a real court, because of the "alleged" reference.
i think most of us are agreeing upon sting+hoax...
can't shake the feeling that somehow bam will not be so much about michael showing back up as much as someone will be arrested. just a gut feeling i have had .
don't worry suspicious, everything will carry out smoothly ;)
Post by: Andrea on November 19, 2012, 11:44:24 AM
MJ apparently had several aliases for the purposes of getting a bunch of prescription drugs. There are so many prescription drugs that are simply not needed but doctors prescribe anyways, pharmacists package and sell them after getting them from suppliers - all for the profit, from big pharm. companies. There was the pharmacist Tim Lopez from Applied Pharmacy, who TMZ called a "Key Witness" - ( http://www.tmz.com/2011/09/15/conrad-murray-trial-key-witness-has-vanished-michael-jackson-propofol-pharmacist-tim-lopez-thailand/ http://www.tmz.com/2011/10/04/people-vs-dr-conrad-murray-pharmacist-testifiespropofol-key-witness-resurfaces-tim-lopez/ ) - who provided the vast amounts of propofol to Murray, who Murray apparently contacted initially to get a skin cream from, for Vitiligo. During the trial, Tim spoke of his suppliers and different circumstances of getting stuff from his suppliers - like whether he had to pay up front or not. I don't know, it seemed kinda shady to me. During Lopez's testimony, he says that Murray asked him very specific questions about what he needed with the cream and then later the propofol. A set up? Applied Pharmacy was shut down ( http://www.tmz.com/2011/03/24/dr-murray-propofol-applied-pharmacy-michael-jackson-shut-down-las-vegas-bankruptcy/ ) but that was before the trial started. Here's Lopez's testimony, part 1 from William Wagener.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuVqXxXA4ec[/youtube]
Link for part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUVBz-ajeoU&feature=relmfu
If big pharm. companies/pharmacies/pharmacists are a potential sting target, there's still a question of WHY Michael would go along with this. Perhaps he's seen the effects of prescription drugs on people close to him and he did enter rehab in 1993 for a dependency on prescription drugs - at least that's the story that was reported. If the FBI is involved, they could've had a hand in the nature of Michael's "death" for the purpose of their sting. It's definitely gotten out of control with the amount of legal drugs that are out there and the doctor's who are more than willing to prescribe them for any reason. Many of the drugs have more potential damaging side effects than the condition itself but it's all about $$ and dependency.
Post by: paula-c on November 19, 2012, 12:04:34 PM
http://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/courtnews/Uploads/1420129281042RulesRegardingFilming.htm
There was filming of the audience in the trial tho? and in the document i have add , says: It is not permissible to film the audience, or anyone sitting beyond the ‘rail’ (the barrier between the public seating area and the area where counsel tables are located in) in the courtroom. Tight shots must be used to avoid capturing these images.
Would it be admitted when it was a real Court?
I am short in time and havent searched for more info on this site, and maybe you have seen it before but i will add this website aswell who knows there is more to find on this.
http://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/courtnews/ui/main.aspx
Somewhere I read that the images, such as for example 'the corpse " of the victim should not be transmitted by television, and all saw it, ..at the global level.
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2012, 12:10:30 PM
... and speaking of getting back to what went to UCLA ...
Fire Station 71, Shift C: Jeff Mills (Captain), Richard Senneff, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron, Sean Mills.
Did anyone know that Martin Blount was not from the same shift (he was from the A Shift)?
:icon_e_confused:
TS dropped this nugget and I had to pick up on it.
I hadn't heard that....maybe others had?
I interpret this as Martin Blount was bought in specifically from a different shift .....but for what reason? An undercover agent perhaps (if the FBI is involved?) or is it a simple explanation - like he was covering for another paramedic who was off work sick that day? :icon_e_confused:
Wasn't Martin Blount the one who told the fan outside UCLA on June 25th that he didn't recognise MJ and then in his testimony during the trial he changed that story?
I agree it's a hoax and a sting together (not only a sting against the media/fans/public).....but like others I am unsure who the BIG fish of the sting are. Perhaps it was never going to be obvious to us and hints/whispers/clues as to the target needed to be zero so as not to give it away.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 19, 2012, 12:17:47 PM
... and speaking of getting back to what went to UCLA ...
Fire Station 71, Shift C: Jeff Mills (Captain), Richard Senneff, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron, Sean Mills.
Did anyone know that Martin Blount was not from the same shift (he was from the A Shift)?
:icon_e_confused:
TS dropped this nugget and I had to pick up on it.
I hadn't heard that....maybe others had?
I interpret this as Martin Blount was bought in specifically from a different shift .....but for what reason? An undercover agent perhaps (if the FBI is involved?) or is it a simple explanation - like he was covering for another paramedic who was off work sick that day? :icon_e_confused:
Wasn't Martin Blount the one who told the fan outside UCLA on June 25th that he didn't recognise MJ and then in his testimony during the trial he changed that story?
I agree it's a hoax and a sting together (not only a sting against the media/fans/public).....but like others I am unsure who the BIG fish of the sting are. Perhaps it was never going to be obvious to us and hints/whispers/clues as to the target needed to be zero so as not to give it away.
So maybe he just set up the jury. A jury is made up of normal, every day people, a cross section of the population, supposed to represent average Americans (a jury of our "peers"). We will all recall there were several MJ fans on that jury (at least latent "fans"--those who appreciated MJ and his music, you'll recall TMZ's article briefly describing some select jurors). This jury encompasses in cross section the fans and the general public. So sting still = on the fans/general public (and always the media).
These fans and members of the general public scrutinized the information presented, in detail, and STILL found Murray guilty. We suspect that the ARG we are playing is designed to capture the attention of the curious and test our ability to decipher truth from BS and largely the entire MJ fan base has failed. That's why I have long defined the sting as being on the fans(/general public/media by proxy), so if TS wants to call it a sting court because it satisfied the same agenda in a very public way (in televised court proceedings), once and for all, mission accomplished. After nearly 2.5 years (as of 2011 by verdict time), the fans/general public (as represented in cross section) failed the test/got caught by the sting operation-- they found Murray guilty.
If the FBI is involved, I continue to believe, based on the available information so far, that it is only to provide clearance (legality) to MJ to proceed with his life's work.
If big pharm. companies/pharmacies/pharmacists are a potential sting target, there's still a question of WHY Michael would go along with this. Perhaps he's seen the effects of prescription drugs on people close to him and he did enter rehab in 1993 for a dependency on prescription drugs - at least that's the story that was reported. If the FBI is involved, they could've had a hand in the nature of Michael's "death" for the purpose of their sting. It's definitely gotten out of control with the amount of legal drugs that are out there and the doctor's who are more than willing to prescribe them for any reason. Many of the drugs have more potential damaging side effects than the condition itself but it's all about $$ and dependency.
I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
Post by: Andrea on November 19, 2012, 12:19:24 PM
... and speaking of getting back to what went to UCLA ...
Fire Station 71, Shift C: Jeff Mills (Captain), Richard Senneff, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron, Sean Mills.
Did anyone know that Martin Blount was not from the same shift (he was from the A Shift)?
:icon_e_confused:
TS dropped this nugget and I had to pick up on it.
I hadn't heard that....maybe others had?
I interpret this as Martin Blount was bought in specifically from a different shift .....but for what reason? An undercover agent perhaps (if the FBI is involved?) or is it a simple explanation - like he was covering for another paramedic who was off work sick that day? :icon_e_confused:
Wasn't Martin Blount the one who told the fan outside UCLA on June 25th that he didn't recognise MJ and then in his testimony during the trial he changed that story?
I agree it's a hoax and a sting together (not only a sting against the media/fans/public).....but like others I am unsure who the BIG fish of the sting is. Perhaps it was never going to be obvious to us and hints/whispers/clues as to the target needed to be zero so as not to give it away.
So Martin Blount replaced Sean Mills that day? I wasn't aware that Blount was supposed to be on another shift. Sean's name is the only one that I don't recognize. Martin named all the paramedics who were there that day and he didn't name Sean. Unless Sean was there but went on the stretcher as the body.... It's possible Blount is undercover somehow, he mentioned that his training was at UCLA - which could be an indication showing these agencies have worked together in the past. And Blount definitely stated that he immediately recognized MJ as the patient during his testimony. But I don't see how it's possible for only one paramedic to be in on it (not that that is the suggestion) but Blount's presence there that day when he wasn't supposed to be on shift indicates to me that he specifically needed to be there.
Post by: paula-c on November 19, 2012, 01:49:00 PM
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 19, 2012, 01:55:55 PM
TS - how does one know that? Is there somewhere online to confirm this information?
Blessings
Post by: bec on November 19, 2012, 02:26:28 PM
If Martin Blount is also an undercover agent we will probably never know that for sure. He will need to keep his identity a secret but that would explain his presence. Does anyone remember the wife who posted comments on a blog and then removed them? Who's wife was she?
TS - how does one know that? Is there somewhere online to confirm this information?
Blessings
That was Sean Mills wife.
@TS, I remember some time early in the hoax, in 2009, someone posted the shift schedule for the paramedics and yes, I recall that Blount was listed on a different shift then the one that was supposed to be on duty at the time of the 911 call and subsequent LAFD response. That never went anywhere namely because we couldn't prove that the schedule posted was the schedule in place on 6/25/09.
Perhaps there is some secrecy necessary regarding the subject of the sting, however, we are privy to the fact that MJ is alive and you'd think that if it's too risky for us to know the target of the sting it would certainly be too risky for us to know that MJ isn't dead in the first place. Besides, TS is bringing it up and encouraging discussion about it so clearly it isn't THAT covert.
Post by: curls on November 19, 2012, 04:32:34 PM
So, you still want us to work out what went to UCLA? Has anyone put forward anything close to the truth yet? Please, I hate to call for the spoon, or the silver platter for you to feed us from, but really we (at least I) need some help here!
I wouldn't be concerned, at this stage I'd be happy to wait and see, but it seems important to you that we understand certain things (hoax/sting court and UCLA in particular), and reach a concensus ..... with time running out.
Are we helping, are we doing ok, or are you tearing your hair out at our inabilty to grasp what you're trying to convey? Is there anything else we should/could be doing with the information we have? Or is this an exercise in proving the futility of trying to find the truth when one isn't in possession of all of the facts? :icon_redface:
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2012, 04:43:20 PM
So Martin Blount replaced Sean Mills that day? I wasn't aware that Blount was supposed to be on another shift. Sean's name is the only one that I don't recognize. Martin named all the paramedics who were there that day and he didn't name Sean. Unless Sean was there but went on the stretcher as the body.... It's possible Blount is undercover somehow, he mentioned that his training was at UCLA - which could be an indication showing these agencies have worked together in the past. And Blount definitely stated that he immediately recognized MJ as the patient during his testimony. But I don't see how it's possible for only one paramedic to be in on it (not that that is the suggestion) but Blount's presence there that day when he wasn't supposed to be on shift indicates to me that he specifically needed to be there.
Agree Andrea - they needed him there for some reason otherwise why bring him in from another shift?
If Martin Blount is also an undercover agent we will probably never know that for sure. He will need to keep his identity a secret but that would explain his presence.
Yes - true voice.
1/1/13 is approaching so only time will tell exactly how covert the sting element is and I hope we and the world do find out what the sting was. We aren't privy to all the inside machinations. What we've been shown, told, thought we've figured out, led to believe, might only be the tip of the iceberg and only what MJ + team allows/needs us to see/know.........
I agree curls......TS is probably tearing his hair out at us. Maybe that silver platter will be warranted soon because I feel we are at a loss too when we don't have all the inside facts and knowledge.
Post by: MJonmind on November 19, 2012, 05:08:17 PM
Quote
Wasn't Martin Blount the one who told the fan outside UCLA on June 25th that he didn't recognise MJ and then in his testimony during the trial he changed that story?Yep, strategic.
Voice
Quote
If Martin Blount is also an undercover agent we will probably never know that for sure. He will need to keep his identity a secret but that would explain his presence. Does anyone remember the wife who posted comments on a blog and then removed them? Who's wife was she?
Do you remember you posted this a while back?
Quote
Something else I noticed is that the badge on Martin Blount is one that a long time ago I found was sold at a badge store and not the official one that they wear. I no longer have the link to the site but will keep looking but I did keep pictures.http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20594.msg359787.html#msg359787
From these older posts, it seems Blount is strategically placed to head up the EMT for hoax purposes. (And I do remember some private EMT discussions about MJ's 'death' that they were concerned about their public image, not getting into trouble, and having done everything to standards, as if they weren't aware of the hoax. Perhaps it was the wife of Sean Mills I'm thinking of, like Bec said.)
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20755.msg360679.html#msg360679
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18688.msg323739.html#msg323739
So if this Sean Mills wasn't in on the hoax, then he must have gotten called away somehow so that he would be forced to need a replacement that day.
Post by: MJonmind on November 19, 2012, 05:26:12 PM
Thriller4ever
Quote
I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
About the target of the sting—here is my link to videos of MJ’s words, that definitely could NOT be talked of openly (dangerous). But first read the Back post on the top of this page to get the background. This is a higher up layer to the pyramid that I suggested of MJ's target/enemies, that TS said was true in a general sense.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forumpics/back/Back07.jpg
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21879.msg428344.html#msg428344
What I wrote about Joshua at the bottom of this post, is what I think is happening on a planetary scale--a big picture or spiritual image. (Michael and the dragon waging war) http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,5167.msg429072.html#msg429072
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2012, 05:32:36 PM
Do you remember you posted this a while back?QuoteSomething else I noticed is that the badge on Martin Blount is one that a long time ago I found was sold at a badge store and not the official one that they wear. I no longer have the link to the site but will keep looking but I did keep pictures.http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20594.msg359787.html#msg359787
So if this Sean Mills wasn't in on the hoax, then he must have gotten called away somehow so that he would be forced to need a replacement that day.
Interesting about the badge. (The pictures on that thread don't seem to be displaying - for me anyway)
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 19, 2012, 06:02:31 PM
#2- he seems to clear his throat a lot, which could indicate that he is using a different voice from his own and he is "conscious" of it!
#3 In the video below, at 2:27, Brazil asks him what Lidocaine is used for and he answers "an anti arythmic drug, it's a Heart drug !! " :thjajaja121: Lidocaine is a topical numbing agent!! I mean come on, he is suppose to be a Paramedic, with lots of training!! This sealed the deal for me, that Blount isn't who he claims to be!!!
EDIT**** Ok, I just found where they do use Lidocaine for an "irregular heartbeat" so I guess I jumped on this too fast, BUT...we are led to believe that Conrad used a lot of Lidocaine if there were 3 bottles on the floor...question s why??...I still find Mr. Blount to be highly suspect though... :suspect:
EDIT EDIT*** oops, forgot to add, that Marty Blount was the driver of the ambulance right??? Ya...I still think this is MJ as Blount though, because there is no way an "experienced" ambulance driver would take that long to back out of the driveway...we all know the rumors of MJ not being the best of drivers and maybe we were told that he wasn't the best driver, so that we would "reflect" back on this tidbit of info and "connect the dots" with the ambulance driver??? Everyone was keeping their attention on who was in the back of the ambulance, not who was driving!! It is possible! Something about Blount is "off"...jmo
oh, and lets not forget that it was during Blounts testimony that the fire alarm went off!!! Michael...you can't fool me you wascally wabbit you!! :LolLolLolLol:
I can't wait to find out just how many "characters" Michael has portrayed in this ARG/Hoax/Mission/Education...etc
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=jZ03Oo_ppjg&feature=endscreen[/youtube]
This is just my opinion of course!
LOVE to all of you...TS that includes you!!! :bearhug: :smiley_abuv:
Post by: bec on November 19, 2012, 06:27:53 PM
Upon reviewing Blount's testimony, I don't think he is MJ in disguise but I do think the dummy theory is starting to fall into place. His statements can easily indicate a dummy. The skin was warm to the touch in the bed (fire in the room), cool once it was placed on the floor, eyes were fixed n dilated (haha) and there was no heart activity, lifeless condition. All of that would be TRUE and easy for him to recollect accurately.
We have rejected a different dead person, a dead double, live MJ himself, and nothing at all, so we are left with a dummy. In that way alone it falls into place.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 19, 2012, 06:42:00 PM
... and speaking of getting back to what went to UCLA ...
Fire Station 71, Shift C: Jeff Mills (Captain), Richard Senneff, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron, Sean Mills.
Did anyone know that Martin Blount was not from the same shift (he was from the A Shift)?
:icon_e_confused:
TS dropped this nugget and I had to pick up on it.
I hadn't heard that....maybe others had?
I interpret this as Martin Blount was bought in specifically from a different shift .....but for what reason? An undercover agent perhaps (if the FBI is involved?) or is it a simple explanation - like he was covering for another paramedic who was off work sick that day? :icon_e_confused:
Wasn't Martin Blount the one who told the fan outside UCLA on June 25th that he didn't recognise MJ and then in his testimony during the trial he changed that story?
I agree it's a hoax and a sting together (not only a sting against the media/fans/public).....but like others I am unsure who the BIG fish of the sting is. Perhaps it was never going to be obvious to us and hints/whispers/clues as to the target needed to be zero so as not to give it away.
So Martin Blount replaced Sean Mills that day? I wasn't aware that Blount was supposed to be on another shift. Sean's name is the only one that I don't recognize. Martin named all the paramedics who were there that day and he didn't name Sean. Unless Sean was there but went on the stretcher as the body.... It's possible Blount is undercover somehow, he mentioned that his training was at UCLA - which could be an indication showing these agencies have worked together in the past. And Blount definitely stated that he immediately recognized MJ as the patient during his testimony. But I don't see how it's possible for only one paramedic to be in on it (not that that is the suggestion) but Blount's presence there that day when he wasn't supposed to be on shift indicates to me that he specifically needed to be there.
Quote
Unless Sean was there but went on the stretcher as the body...
I thought about that too.
I agree Andrea, Sean Mills wasn't mentioned by Martin Blount, at about 4:20 Martin Blount mentions the other rescue personnel.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXU2KE1j_k&feature=related [/youtube]
Blount was the driver of the ambulance, the other passenger was paramedic Richard Sennef. He was the one who called UCLA by cell phone (shouldn't this be a radio?) to report to nurse ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ&list=SP4217B4C78F9B667F&index=4&feature=plpp_video Strange that there hasn't been mentioned a name of the nurse :icon_e_confused: while every detail and name has been mentioned during the trial. They call her 'radio nurse' while she has been called by cell phone?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrccoOTZt7Y&feature=BFa&list=SP4217B4C78F9B667F [/youtube]
5:30: At some point, subsequently, Richard Sennef recognized the patient as Michael Jackson while Martin Blount immediately recognized Michael Jackson :icon_e_confused: Striking contradiction imo. As Sennef reported frequently updates of the patient's condition to the UCLA nurse, I suppose he would have reported the patient's name/address etc, because I'd think that's essential for UCLA to collect available medical records of the patient before it arrives at the UCLA. They didn't recognize the patient as Michael Jackson at UCLA, even though they must have had the patient's medical records ready by then. Was Michael using a pseudonym as a patient? Sean Mills perhaps, or Sean JackSUN? or what was Michael's pseudo name on Arnold Klein's med records? (I'm thinking of the recent news reports about name change of Jermaine, which could be a hint) and was this pseudonym reported to UCLA? I'd think that someBODY/thing else on the stretcher with a pseudonym would not get as much attention as Michael Jackson on a stretcher. That's probably why the ER physician didn't recognize the patient as Michael Jackson. Michael was distracting the media and was a few steps ahead of them and this gave him time and opportunity to get away.
Need some sleep, have to get up early. Have a nice day/night!
LOVE
Post by: paula-c on November 19, 2012, 06:49:51 PM
If Martin Blount is also an undercover agent we will probably never know that for sure. He will need to keep his identity a secret but that would explain his presence. Does anyone remember the wife who posted comments on a blog and then removed them? Who's wife was she?
TS - how does one know that? Is there somewhere online to confirm this information?
Blessings
That was Sean Mills wife.
@TS, I remember some time early in the hoax, in 2009, someone posted the shift schedule for the paramedics and yes, I recall that Blount was listed on a different shift then the one that was supposed to be on duty at the time of the 911 call and subsequent LAFD response. That never went anywhere namely because we couldn't prove that the schedule posted was the schedule in place on 6/25/09.
Perhaps there is some secrecy necessary regarding the subject of the sting, however, we are privy to the fact that MJ is alive and you'd think that if it's too risky for us to know the target of the sting it would certainly be too risky for us to know that MJ isn't dead in the first place. Besides, TS is bringing it up and encouraging discussion about it so clearly it isn't THAT covert.
Is Sean Mills or Jeff Mills, well copied and pasted from another forum what he wrote in those days
Quote
CPR VIP
Published by Darylynn at 12:01 am under Friends, Things and Stuff
CPR VIP: that’s the text message I received from Jeff at 2:38 PM yesterday. I am not going to write the name here because I don’t want search engines to turn it up but I think you know who I mean. As you know, Jeff’s fire station is in Bel Air and they got the emergency call. Jeff said they used everything in their paramedic kits and worked on him for 45 minutes taking turns doing chest compressions. He’s pretty sure he was gone before they got there. They went to UCLA medical center with him and had to stay quite a long time. I could see Jeff’s rescue ambulance- 71’s- on the news at the ER entrance for hours. He finally called me around 7 PM and still couldn’t say much. He was warned that the paparazzi can intercept cellphone calls. Back at his fire station, he was fielding phone calls from TMZ and other celebrity websites looking for information. Of course, he is saying, “No comment.” All of the guys on Jeff’s crew had cellphones with cameras but not one took a photo. That would be a million dollar photo. I asked him what I could write today and he said that he would only be comfortable with this… so that’s all for now. We also lost Farrah Fawcett yesterday and that was a long, hard brave struggle that she fought. I had the Farrah Flip back in the 1970’s… we all did.
[...]
And later
Quote
There are some online rumors that a photograph of MJ was taken by a fireman and sold for $100,000. The photograph in question (which I won’t link to because it’s despicable) shows him in the back of the ambulance with a tube down his throat. You can see the hands of the paramedics still giving him CPR. You can also see a reflection on the glass where the photo was taken from outside the ambulance… not from inside. Also online are videos showing the ambulance being swarmed by paparazzi as they back out of the residence. What an insult to Jeff and his crew who worked so hard to try and bring him back. It made me angry but Jeff and the guys just laughed off the accusation. They said the first one of them that shows up with a new boat will be the prime suspect. It makes you realize how frustrating it must be for celebrities to read all the lies printed about them in tabloids. Anyway, that’s all I have to say about the whole thing today besides what I wrote on Friday. *Added later: some people are misunderstanding this post… I am saying the photo WAS taken by paparazzi and not the firemen. But someone made up a ridiculous rumor that it was taken by a fireman and he sold it for money. Jeff even had news people calling him at the station asking if it was true. He also had reporters come into the station when the door was left open asking for “off the record” comments. Ridiculous like anything you said would be confidential.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/o8z475.jpg)
(http://i45.tinypic.com/2jfi9y.jpg)
(http://i69.servimg.com/u/f69/16/09/46/48/lafd10.jpg)
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2012, 06:54:31 PM
... and speaking of getting back to what went to UCLA ...
Fire Station 71, Shift C: Jeff Mills (Captain), Richard Senneff, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron, Sean Mills.
Did anyone know that Martin Blount was not from the same shift (he was from the A Shift)?
:icon_e_confused:
So there must be a significant connection between Blount being brought in from a different shift and what went to UCLA that day, otherwise why would TS draw our attention to it in the above way..... ie linking change in Blount's shift with "what" went to UCLA?
Post by: bec on November 19, 2012, 07:00:24 PM
Not sure where the name Sean came from but we can clear that up now.
paula, I just saw you posted the same while I was writing this.
Post by: Andrea on November 19, 2012, 07:01:18 PM
Sean Mills wife stated on her blog that he was on the call that went to Carrolwood. Since he was never accounted for in the group that worked on the patient and there was a fireman outside Carrolwood (setting traffic cones near the firetruck) I always presumed Sean Mills was that man, since no one else has come forward as being there.
Upon reviewing Blount's testimony, I don't think he is MJ in disguise but I do think the dummy theory is starting to fall into place. His statements can easily indicate a dummy. The skin was warm to the touch in the bed (fire in the room), cool once it was placed on the floor, eyes were fixed n dilated (haha) and there was no heart activity, lifeless condition. All of that would be TRUE and easy for him to recollect accurately.
We have rejected a different dead person, a dead double, live MJ himself, and nothing at all, so we are left with a dummy. In that way alone it falls into place.
The ambulance photo supports the dummy theory as well. A dummy that looks like MJ, making him "immediately" recognizable and to be able to say he was working on "Michael Jackson", it's what he actually saw (in dummy form).
Post by: bec on November 19, 2012, 07:07:32 PM
But yes, a dummy would make him immediately recognizable, more or less, if you remember MJ's appearance from 1987. Maybe Blount does by Senneff was never much of a fan back then (ha) so it took him a minute.
I swear that's the Leave Me Alone dummy in the ambulance pic. Maybe they did use the same one on 6/25/09. I suppose they would IF they did use a dummy that day as well. Why use 2 different MJ dummies for two different scenes requiring a dummy?
Did they use a dummy that day or the other day? Haha.
Post by: Andrea on November 19, 2012, 07:22:35 PM
So that tells me that there WAS a dummy used during the planning of the hoax, because like you said bec, the photo was staged beforehand on "the other d--". So IF a dummy was used ON June 25th, for all the stretcher action shots, why not use the one people think they saw anyways, especially when it gives factual statements to what Blount said.
So where does this leave MJ-actual in that scenario?
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2012, 07:34:00 PM
I didn't think that the use of a cadaver had actually had been decided upon either way.
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 19, 2012, 07:53:12 PM
Yeah but the photo was taken earlier so it doesn't really have any bearing on what was in the ambulance that day.
But yes, a dummy would make him immediately recognizable, more or less, if you remember MJ's appearance from 1987. Maybe Blount does by Senneff was never much of a fan back then (ha) so it took him a minute.
I swear that's the Leave Me Alone dummy in the ambulance pic. Maybe they did use the same one on 6/25/09. I suppose they would IF they did use a dummy that day as well. Why use 2 different MJ dummies for two different scenes requiring a dummy?
Did they use a dummy that day or the other day? Haha.
If they used the Leave Me Alone dummy then that explains why we were getting redirects of the picture early on in the hoax. I too believe it was a dummy or wax figure of some kind - but I guess not wax or the heat would make him melt.
Regarding the badges - I do remember that now. Thanks. I had searched the Internet looking at badges and I happened upon a store where you could buy badges. One of the badges looked identical to the one that Blount wore. I think that the link to the store was actually through the fire station website or city website. Unfortunately I recently deleted those photos from my computer too because of memory issues.
Post by: bec on November 19, 2012, 08:00:13 PM
So if there's no NEED for a real body to fool anyone why go through the trouble?
To me, that's why it is rejected. There lacks motive for the trouble of a real body.
I don't know where that leaves live MJ in all of this except that all reports were that he was at UCLA that day and no other theory seems supported by the evidence. He had to have his pic taken at some point for the gurney pic and the autopsy photo, and the crew needed him to be there so they could truthfully say as much in their statements, also, that which we have already discussed regarding on site direction and communication.
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 19, 2012, 08:07:04 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGX3TlPcZZ4[/youtube]
Forgive me if it has already been posted.
LOVE you guys!
Post by: Andrea on November 19, 2012, 08:09:41 PM
So when was the cadaver idea rejected (and I don't mean a body double conveniently dying the same day)?
I didn't think that the use of a cadaver had actually had been decided upon either way.
The only reason to use a cadaver would be to fool the people who would have to see and handle the body - the docs at UCLA and the coroner. But they would have to be in on it, because of the invasiveness of their roles - a professional coroner performing a real autopsy is probably going to realize he's not actually working on the body of Michael Jackson. So instead of getting and using a real cadaver and the complications that can arise with that scenario (considering the people it wants to fool would have to be in on it anyways), it's easier to not have a dead body. If the autopsy is going to be tailored to the needs of the hoax, why does any of it have to be actually real? The autopsy was finalized on 9/9/09. Brian Oxman said the ambulance photo was 99.9% fake.
ps. just saw your reply bec, our reasoning is often similar, lol.
Post by: paula-c on November 19, 2012, 08:16:05 PM
(http://elcomercio.e3.pe/66/ima/0/0/3/9/9/399188.jpg)
and this
(http://img1.noticias24.com/1110/michaej4-630.jpg)
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2012, 08:25:33 PM
Also I thought 2 of the doctors at UCLA (I think Richelle Cooper was one of them) that when MJ arrived at UCLA he was DOA.
I'd have to go back and check the vids of their testimonies.
I haven't discounted the use of a corpse yet, but I also agree that it may have been a life-like dummy...
Was just reading this too from back in April 2011 from TS.......might shed some light (then again, maybe not lol)
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18688.msg325716.html#msg325716
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011)
Good eye! <!-- s:lol: -->:lol:<!-- s:lol: -->
Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress. There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other). But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.
On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way. Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.
And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let’s examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point).
What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be “in on it”? NONE! Why? Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be “in on”. Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be “in on it”? None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.
But in that case, wouldn’t people realize that it was not MJ? Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in. As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think. There are several things that would tend to distract people’s attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).
We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do. But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence. And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766)}.
See also a similar but slightly different theory {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518)}.
Post by: bec on November 19, 2012, 08:31:07 PM
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/ambulancef.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/ambulaoco.png)
Post by: Adi on November 19, 2012, 09:15:18 PM
TS
Quote
Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
This is working on the premise of a corpse being used (and I don't know 100% if one was used or not) but perhaps this is why Martin Blount was brought into this shift.... out of all the paramedics there, maybe he really was the only one "in on it". Martin changed his account of the patient description from UCLA to his trial testimony (from not recognising MJ to immediately recognising MJ). Maybe on June 25th outside UCLA talking to the fan he went along with what the the other paramedics were saying just for unity purposes (that it didn't look like MJ etc) when maybe he really did know that it wasn't MJ who went to UCLA but the corpse of someone else (eg hospice patient).
Anyway - this is just speculation on my part, but Blount must have been brought in for a reason.
I can't think anymore - my brain is fried...... :smiley-vault-misc-150:
I think I'll just read for a while.......see what happens.
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 19, 2012, 09:19:05 PM
Post by: bec on November 19, 2012, 09:22:29 PM
Quote
Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
That's not entirely accurate come to think of it, TS. The guy who waited with the firetruck (traffic cone man), presumably Jeff Mills, doesn't have to be in on it if he waited with the truck the whole time.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 20, 2012, 12:38:50 AM
watched this video again.
So there were four paramedics in the room: Martin Blount, Richard Sennef, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron.
Jeff Mills was not there who's the captain.
QuoteAny of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
That's not entirely accurate come to think of it, TS. The guy who waited with the firetruck (traffic cone man), presumably Jeff Mills, doesn't have to be in on it if he waited with the truck the whole time.
as Bec said, Jeff Mills might not be knowing of the dummy...is there a reason why the "dummy" fact has been hidden from the captain, does he even know? if not, why?
If there is a specific reason behind appointing Blount in the Shift C, there probably has to be a link between Michael and blount in some or the other way. Blount would be able to understand the whole hoax situation accurately and therefore would lead the team (and in some way influence the captain, Jeff Mills) so that the pre-meditated plan by Michael would carry out properly...
this is just a thought...
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 20, 2012, 02:05:36 AM
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 20, 2012, 02:14:56 AM
Post by: MJonmind on November 20, 2012, 06:12:57 AM
I watched the 4 Blount videos again, and again it’s so hard to tell from that if dummy or hospice patient/corpse fits better, or even if he is in on the hoax. I'm probably repeating old thoughts somewhere, but if it was a dummy used that looked like MJ, then why were all the house staff sent home before they came downstairs with the body—they would have believed it was him if they were not in on the hoax. If it was a hospice patient, the EMT would have been fooled possibly, but the staff not. Blount said the body had been dead much longer than the 1 minute Murray claimed. The biggest problem I see with the hospice patient possibly looking like the ‘frail Asian bald man’, is that the autopsy body/pics wouldn’t be matching, and then EMT’s and hospital staff might speak out on this difference. He said Sennef tried to get a vein but couldn’t , but then tried in the neck, but then Brazil was interrupted and we didn’t get if he was successful then—no vein would work for both options. Kathy Hilton rubbing ‘MJ’s’ head and feet at UCLA, and Latoya and Karen Faye dressing him so many days later work better with a dummy, less gross. Whether it was a corpse or dummy, why was the back board looking like it carried a body to the helicopter, but flat when going from the heli to coroner van? If it was not MJ flying outta there in the heli, what was the point except only to draw our attention to what was on there? BTW, did anyone ever figure out why the ambu pic has a white arm doing the airway, and Blount is black?
This is an interesting read from way back, and one post from Mjsmyheart.
Quote
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18185.msg320915.html#msg320915
what I believe is that the paramedics are actually FBI agents that really work as paramedics. What I mean by that, is that when the FBI is working on a mission I would assume they would have their own trained paramedics because of the nature of their cases; I don't think a regular paramedic would have the same advanced training that I assume the FBI paramedics would because the FBI are trained for some of the worst type of situations. ..
Unfortunately, I don’t believe the evidence that you have provided proves that they are not FBI agents, it only proves that they are potentially real paramedics vs. being actors. Just because there are pictures taken of them at a pancake breakfast fundraiser doesn’t disqualify them being FBI agents that work as paramedics either. The picture could just be another tactic for those of us that are investigating to try to deter us so that we think that-since they are at a function with other paramedics they must really work for LAFD. With that theory, I would also have to assume that Murray’s trail is 100% real because it takes place in a real court.
Thanks to TMZ we at least know that SWAT is involved; now with these higher government agencies like the FBI and SWAT every detail is carefully planned out down to the tiniest of details just like how Michael planned everything down to the minute. In order to make sure their mission is completed successfully you have to assume (unless you work for one of these agencies and know otherwise) that it takes a great deal of time to work out any bumps in the road possibly years just like many assume MJ has been working on this hoax for over decade. Who’s to say that the FBI didn’t plant their men in the LAFD years ago to work undercover? I also believe that this theory would still make it so that they would continue working there months after the alleged death; that way when the hoax did come into play people wouldn’t question the paramedics that just came and went involved in MJ's death... that would be very suspicious!
Quote
http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedic ... -arrived/3
Paramedics: Jackson Dead When We Arrived
7/26/2009 9:30 PM PDT by TMZ Staff
Law enforcement sources tell us when paramedics arrived at Michael Jackson's house he was already dead ... and it took them a while to even realize the victim was the famous singer.
Our sources say when paramedics got to Jackson's home he was flatlined. There was no electrical activity in his heart and Jackson showed no sign of life.
Multiple sources say paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the scene but Dr. Conrad Murray insisted that the singer be transported to the hospital. Dr. Murray -- as a higher medical authority than the EMTs -- had the power to overrule them.
Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man."
So if the medics are in, I vote dummy.
Post by: shorty on November 20, 2012, 06:33:48 AM
And I think, that Blount is in the know
maybe ( FBI ) Agent.
love
Post by: curls on November 20, 2012, 07:03:56 AM
......... if it was a dummy used that looked like MJ, then why were all the house staff sent home before they came downstairs with the body—they would have believed it was him if they were not in on the hoax. .........
........ BTW, did anyone ever figure out why the ambu pic has a white arm doing the airway, and Blount is black?
Re the first point above - a silly thought maybe, but what if MJ, out of a sort of concern or kindness perhaps, simply didn't want those of his staff who weren't in the know about the hoax, to witness anything at all, so it was written into the day's plans that they be told to leave at that point. It would surely have been upsetting for them, and as it wasn't true anyway (that he'd died or was dying) he wanted to spare them that. From then on, they were with the rest of us, with access to all his clues, without the added 'complication' of having (thought they'd) seen him dead. Just a thought!
Re Blount and the ambu-arm, purposely to add another inconsistency for the eagle eyed maybe? ..... and also did we ever find out who actually drove the ambulance to UCLA?
Post by: paula-c on November 20, 2012, 08:30:54 AM
Four paramedics at a life threatening scene, is very rare....
http://www.emsworld.com/article/10323573/how-many-paramedics-does-it-take-to
Quote
So there were four paramedics in the room: Martin Blount, Richard Sennef, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron.Jeff Mills was not there who's the captain.
And how many people were in the ambulance including Murray and the corpse or dummy? :confused:
(http://fotosdecosas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Fotos-de-autos-sobreccargados-3.jpg)
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 20, 2012, 08:37:20 AM
Martin Blount is, maybe, an FBI Agent/Parmendic and that explains Ts's post below
... and speaking of getting back to what went to UCLA ...
Fire Station 71, Shift C: Jeff Mills (Captain), Richard Senneff, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron, Sean Mills.
Did anyone know that Martin Blount was not from the same shift (he was from the A Shift)?
:icon_e_confused:
and the staff, maybe it wasn't really necessary for all of the house staff to know.
(as less number of people as possible? :icon_e_confused:)
I feel that all those who appeared in the court as witnesses are the ones who might definitely be in the hoax....
When TS says “what” instead of “who” went to UCLA, he could also be referring to a corpse, even if recently deceased, which becomes an “it”. So he doesn’t have to be inferring a dummy.
BTW, did anyone ever figure out why the ambu pic has a white arm doing the airway, and Blount is black?
...
So if the medics are in, I vote dummy.
...
Even i thought of that, "what" might not necessarily be a dummy it could be a corpse too.
But for me the 'no body' theory fits well into the hoax.
And that would mean most of the people (not all) are involved.
I am cocluding my thoughts:
-Whoever was in the room on 6/25/2009 is in the hoax
-Jeff Mills did not come up to the room, therefore not involved
- I don't know who the driver is, and probably he's also not involved.
- There's a dummy, that was used as "a patient" on 6/25/2009 and was also used for the 'autopsy picture' and 'gurney picture'
(http://grabilla.com/02b14-d7517060-29e4-4c54-a517-a1021c340b62.png) (http://grabilla.com/02b14-d7517060-29e4-4c54-a517-a1021c340b62.html)
(http://grabilla.com/02b14-a253204a-156c-4837-acd6-2df40138f0a3.png) (http://grabilla.com/02b14-a253204a-156c-4837-acd6-2df40138f0a3.html)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WGX3TlPcZZ4)
- Blount has to be FBI
...that's it....
QuoteSo there were four paramedics in the room: Martin Blount, Richard Sennef, Mark Goodwin, Bret Heron.Jeff Mills was not there who's the captain.
And how many people were in the ambulance including Murray and the corpse or dummy? :confused:
(http://fotosdecosas.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Fotos-de-autos-sobreccargados-3.jpg)
;D
Post by: Sarahli on November 20, 2012, 09:15:25 AM
The biggest problem I see with the hospice patient possibly looking like the ‘frail Asian bald man’, is that the autopsy body/pics wouldn’t be matching, and then EMT’s and hospital staff might speak out on this difference.
I think that even if they realized that he didn't really look like the MJ they saw, they couldn't really do much about it as everybody else says it's MJ and it's all over the news. They can just go with the flow and wait it out. After all that would just be about appearance.
And as they worked the situation maybe that they don't want to put themselves in the light of an embarassing and somewhat strange situation. What can they really do? They can't prove anything and it's just based on their recollection of the events. Recollection that must have been altered we can assume by the intensity of the situation and I think the time difference between the events of 25 June 2009 and the broadcast of the autopsy and gurney pictures later in 2011 allows for doubt to creep in. So in my view it's not such a big problem. Now have things been planned and played out this way I cannot tell. It's not a sure science here, lol.
I also think that the information about Blount having been brought in from another shift (TS' post) indicates that he was needed specifically, maybe in order to make things flow. Therefore it seems to me that only Blount is in the know so the hospice patient theory seems plausible as it would be required to fool all those that are not in the know. A dummy might have been used for the autopsy and gurney picture. So I'm thinking right now hospice patient and dummy used.
Post by: Andrea on November 20, 2012, 09:21:07 AM
......... if it was a dummy used that looked like MJ, then why were all the house staff sent home before they came downstairs with the body—they would have believed it was him if they were not in on the hoax. .........
........ BTW, did anyone ever figure out why the ambu pic has a white arm doing the airway, and Blount is black?
Re the first point above - a silly thought maybe, but what if MJ, out of a sort of concern or kindness perhaps, simply didn't want those of his staff who weren't in the know about the hoax, to witness anything at all, so it was written into the day's plans that they be told to leave at that point. It would surely have been upsetting for them, and as it wasn't true anyway (that he'd died or was dying) he wanted to spare them that. From then on, they were with the rest of us, with access to all his clues, without the added 'complication' of having (thought they'd) seen him dead. Just a thought!
Re Blount and the ambu-arm, purposely to add another inconsistency for the eagle eyed maybe? ..... and also did we ever find out who actually drove the ambulance to UCLA?
I agree, if the household staff were not aware of what was going on, it's best to have them out of way, for their sake and for the hoax's sake. If they had seen an MJ-looking dummy, the one from the ambulance photo, they would know there was trickery afoot. MJ is known for having dummies around his houses so there really wouldn't be any questions asked if he had one of himself, at a younger age.
Another argument against the cadaver would be getting it. Even if UCLA provided a body, it would still need to be arranged and brought to the house and then carried upstairs to the bedroom. To make it easier, let's say that Murray and a bodyguard went to pick up the body and bring it to the house. They would need to clear the house of staff so they wouldn't see a dead body coming in...that can't be easily explained away if someone saw it...and then clear the house of staff AGAIN once the ambulance arrived.
Curls, I was wondering about that as well last night - did we ever determine who drove back to UCLA if Blount said he was at MJ's head in the back of the ambulance? I'm drawing a blank. Reversing in a driveway was clearly not that driver's specialty.
Post by: bec on November 20, 2012, 09:50:32 AM
3 firemen arrived in the firetruck, 2 in the ambulance. 1 man would need to drive the firetruck away (Mills, presumably), the other 4 went in the ambulance; 3 in the back and 1 driver. All makes sense.
Blount was "at the head" in the jump seat on the passenger side of the ambulance, he was not the man working the ambu-bag as shown in the pic. TS cleared this up last year in so far as interior ambulance seat positions (well at least, it makes sense based on pic/testimony in addition to TS's statement). His seated position would not be visible in the famous ambulance shot as he would be to the left of the black bag (with yellow stripe) pictured in the lower right of the frame.
So we have the two white men working on the patient, Blount in the jump seat "at the head", and one man to drive. That makes sense with what we saw and the reported # of men on the scene. We will have to presume Murray was seated next to Blount, as the passenger side jump seat has room for 2 as I recall from ambulance interior pics.
Unfortunately that count also makes sense with TS's UCLA stretcher gif # of legs study. There would be 4 EMTs accompanying the stretcher into UCLA in those shots.
I don't see any reason to speculate that Blount is an FBI agent except in an attempt to satisfy TS's hints re: FBI involvement.
Blount can't be the only one in on it if he's testifying that the other paramedics worked on the patient. EMTs are going to notice they are attempting to resuscitate an inanimate object and therefore must be in on it.
Besides, why send only ONE agent if this is an FBI infiltration set up? And send that one agent to try n convince 4 other paramedics to work on a dummy and accept that it is a "real" person?
Are we speculating that the paramedics/LAFD are the focus of the sting? (If Blount is the only agent, it suggests that he is infiltrating LAFD for some unknown reason) That doesn't make sense to me.
The "frail, old man" comments were never substantiated and may well be tabloid fabrications. No paramedic sat on the stand and reiterated these comments.
I have been at the scene of 911 calls when paramedics responded and more then 2 attending is quite normal. I have seen 4 and 5 paramedics attend as routine, never less then 3. Unfortunately EMTs need to respond occasionally at my job so I have some personal experience with this.
I just have to add, along with the sole reason we are speculating that Blount might be an FBI agent is because TS is pushing this theory and we are trying to resolve it somehow... the sole reason we accept that Blount was not scheduled to work that shift is because TS says so. The pic that was posted in 2009 of the LAFD shift schedule was never substantiated to be current on 6/25/09 (as it was posted at a later date--schedules can/do get changed), which is why the topic long ago got ditched. We are only running with this story line now because "TS says so"... unless I'm missing some information.
Post by: bec on November 20, 2012, 09:57:19 AM
Post by: Andrea on November 20, 2012, 10:01:41 AM
Ps. How many paramedics testified at the trial? Anyone remember?
I think it was just the two, Senneff and Blount. I just typed all their names, individually, into youtube and those are the only two I found trial footage on.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 20, 2012, 10:10:59 AM
Post by: paula-c on November 20, 2012, 10:13:40 AM
Quote
Part of the declaration of Blount
MB led the rescue ambulance. RS was sitting beside her. He came to Carolwood and stationed the ambulance and went into the House. The fire truck accompanied them and was stationed with the street. Mills fire captain, the paramedics Goodwin and Herron were in the fire truck.
MB went with MJ to UCLA. He was sitting in the head. Other drugs of boot to MJ in the way they administered. There was no change in the situation of Michael Jackson on the road. MB saw and heard CM on the phone. MB heard cm "is Michael and that is not well" on the phone. MB does not know with whom CM was talking on the phone.
Post by: bec on November 20, 2012, 10:31:59 AM
Additionally these other 2 men would be able to testify as to the condition n lay out of the room at Carrolwood, Murray's actions, the condition and location of the patient when they arrived, etc.
Since these other 2 paramedics never testified as to their actions/locations that day, MJ could easily be in one of their places traveling to UCLA in Live MJ scenario. We don't have statements under oath from either of them to refute that theory, in any case.
4 men in paramedic-type uniforms walked into UCLA along side that stretcher. 2 are accounted for by trial testimony. The other 2 are unknowns. We can put a name to them but it cannot be substantiated that they were actually there, leaving the possibility that MJ was standing in for one of them an open-ended possibility.
The two that are unknowns are the hidden man who's leg TS pointed out and the dark haired man pushing the stretcher to the right of Senneff's position in the stretcher gif. Presumably this is the same man who lifted the foot of the stretcher to place in the ambulance in Ben's video from over the fence at Carrolwood that day. Dark, short cropped hair, slight build. The same man who some believed had a ponytail, but turned out to be just poor video resolution shadows.
Speaking of resolution, I believe that also accounts for the "flat" appearance of the body that came out of the helicopter that day. If you'll refer to the tape, the resolution is poor during that scene, it washes the van out to a solid white color, removing the appearance of minor detail from the surface of the van, and would do the same thing to a cloth covered "body" as well. If all detail is washed out, it leaves the appearance of a flat object, as opposed to one that has depth/texture.
TS taught me this during the study of the Carrolwood gates video (when we were trying to prove one day of filming or two) which removed the watersprouts from the shrubs along side the entrance of the house. Low resolution has large pixels which pick up the major background color and enlarge it to create a square of that single color, effectively erasing all subtle detail within that square of space, resulting in the appearance of a flat surface as opposed to one that has minor detail; too minor for the resolution to pick up on film.
Post by: Andrea on November 20, 2012, 11:03:00 AM
It is quite odd that only 2 of 4 had to testify, especially when Murray's actions that day were a major focus of the trial. I would think the prosecution would want all 4 paramedics to testify, I mean, they called a witness from a cell phone company about Murray's texts/calls that day so why not get the full picture from 4 key witnesses who were actually there with Murray? Maybe there was an agreement in place that the other 2 would participate in the events that day but wouldn't have to testify. And their lack of testimony definitely leaves a space available for MJ. And if MJ wasn't on the stretcher then he would most assuredly be in disguise.
Post by: ellyd on November 20, 2012, 11:40:13 AM
A so to say hint in the public eye to prevent from entrapment.
"Four years" referring to advanced age or else s/he would be deceased.
Post by: Andrea on November 20, 2012, 11:51:25 AM
The "frail old sickly man" IMHO is not a reference to MJ but to the sting target.
A so to say hint in the public eye to prevent from entrapment.
"Four years" referring to advanced age or else s/he would be deceased.
Interesting thought. Do you have someone in mind? Actually, wasn't it the Sun (Murdoch's paper) that made all the inaccurate claims as to the condition of MJ's "body" during the autopsy? Skeletal, bald, needle marks, etc. The coroner dismissed those claims...but someone could've fed the Sun that false info and they ran with it. I don't know why but Murdoch first came to mind when I read your post.
Post by: curls on November 20, 2012, 12:17:18 PM
Post by: bec on November 20, 2012, 12:32:14 PM
Maybe the staff wasn't supposed to see that bent upright knee like the Leave Me Alone dummy has (haha). Face or no face, that's kind of a dead (ha) giveaway.
Is anyone really going to cover the face of a patient having trouble (or not) breathing unless they're dead? And privacy reasons? They're inside a private home/within a fully fenced/gated courtyard. Is that face covering report substantiated or just another rumor?
Remember other rumors that they put MJ's wig on before transporting him (hahahahahahahaaaa ugh).
Post by: paula-c on November 20, 2012, 12:39:20 PM
Quote
Only 2 of 4 testified?
Well, that is one of the things that are not understood in the trial, two witnesses direct of what happened inside the house that were not called to testify.
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 20, 2012, 01:47:36 PM
Post by: flory24 on November 20, 2012, 01:54:08 PM
(http://imageshack.us/a/img822/2595/raportparamedicsjackson.jpg)
Here is a database of Califonia paramedics. www.centralregistry.ca.gov.
EMT32907: Randall A. Johnson. License renewed Year in 2009. There are 22 people with that name in the state of California. None in LA. Probably living in satellite towns. In Long Beach, where he received the license, do not stand any RAJ today, but once a state R Allen J, who is now 59 years old. I say cut him on the list, it can not be our paramedic. So E032907 took a degree in Long Beach, lives in city X and works in LA
EMT33663: Erik. A. Lee. It has the oldest license from 9/18/2008. The name is so common that it's hard to appreciate our man.
EMT51210: Chad B Brazee, only in California. Stay in Irvine, has licensed from Ventura and working in LA. Is 27 years old, graduated from Santa Margarita Catholic High School in 2001. The weird part is that this guy took license in April 2010. But I guess it has renewed it. Unless the real EMT51210 done with ambulances and Brazee has inherited ID.
All three have taken out LA's licenses. All three are qualified as EMT, ambulance technicians, but do not know how high the rank is, because there are four levels of EMT paramedic is highest (2 years training). It seems that Randall was head of the team, because he is the one who completed the paperwork and led rescue operation. Ambulance type ALS (Advanced Life Support), as was 71, had to be at least two paramedics, according to the protocol. Can be all three paramedics (but I doubt, or all three basic EMT). To become a paramedic you just need to have 18 and $ 70. The problem is that Johnson's paramedic-firefighter (graduate of Long Beach City FD). So the head of the rescue operation of MJ's firefighter. It is clear that just as the ambulance was equipped (though the pictures do not see that either), paramedics were some guys emerging, in any case paramedics
Sorry, out of names, you can not learn anything from these people, they have done nothing astounding in their lives, they dont have blogs, ,dont have pictures, do not sit on the net and, especially, did not do in their lifes interviews about MJ.
(http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5315/51210v.jpg) (http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/1046/33663.jpg) (http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8199/32907.jpg)
Firefighter paramedic we talked, Jeff Mills, there he is even paramedic, licensed P25527.
I looked out of curiosity and after Steve Ruda, press officer of the LAFD. .His License is valid for only one year,he is fireman and, from what I found on the net, he didn`t covered another case than ours. Basically, LAFD has another spokesman.
The paramedics....
What do we know about them?
● Nothing. Just as there are good guys, anonymous heroes that saves lives
● They tried to revive Michael Jackson but without success
● appeared as witnesses in the trial
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2415/capturepnz.png)
Paramedics to check licenses
Senneff and Blount
● UPS! Not match those in the report
● Martin Blount - P16415
● Richard Senneff - P01230
(http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/1421/capture2gr.png)
Who are these people?
● Some have taken Michael on a stretcher
● Others have signed the report
● But who were in the process?
Martin Blount (http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/7184/capture3ig.png)
● A bald guy withblack skin
● It was in ambulance
● It was"Towards the head "
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3679/capture4no.png)
Who's Blount?
● The one in the left?
● But no black skin
● And no air pump, as said in the trial
Richard Senneff (http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7523/capture5mc.png)
● A blond, light-skinned
● "The patient's head was between my knees"
● Is the one in the right?
● But that's dark and fatter
inadvertence
● Appearance changed
● Other licenses than in port
● None appears in the picture
● Plus 100 discrepancies in statements
Paramedics from the process are false witnesses
● Do not participated in the events of June 25, 2009
● But what are the real paramedics?
● appeared at the hearings, but we have not been allowed to see them
● However, the cameras have captured some paramedics who were on the witness list
You know these witnesses in uniform paramedics?
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1359/capture6rb.png)
They are paramedics who answered the call to 911!
● Senneff and Blount are just extras!
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4682/capture7hb.png)
credits goes here https://sites.google.com/site/whereismichaeljackson
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 20, 2012, 01:58:05 PM
Post by: Sarahli on November 20, 2012, 02:14:37 PM
Here's the silver platter.... now dish out the facts dude! ::)
(http://www.alpersonpartyrentals.com/CATALOG/platters,%20trays%20&%20chargers/square%20&%20rectangular/Silver%20Tray%20with%20Handles%2013x20%20-%20$9.00.jpg)
Post by: curls on November 20, 2012, 03:28:10 PM
Yes but the "stalker" fan saw something on the stretcher so that refutes the nothing theory.
Maybe the staff wasn't supposed to see that bent upright knee like the Leave Me Alone dummy has (haha). Face or no face, that's kind of a dead (ha) giveaway.
Is anyone really going to cover the face of a patient having trouble (or not) breathing unless they're dead? And privacy reasons? They're inside a private home/within a fully fenced/gated courtyard. Is that face covering report substantiated or just another rumor?
Remember other rumors that they put MJ's wig on before transporting him (hahahahahahahaaaa ugh).
Was that fan at the house or UCLA? And would that also be one of the stalker fans who set up TINI?? If so, I think you know what I think about them. :icon_e_wink:
As for the other stuff, could be a rumour, though I do vaguely remember the face covering bit from someone's testimony in the trial. But even if they said it, it still doesn't mean they actually did it.
(And of course, if they HAD covered his face there'd be no ambulance pic, except of course that was done the other day!)
..... and didn't they also find and take MJ's driving licence for identification purposes - or maybe he needed it himself to drive the ambulance! :LolLolLolLol:
Bring on Sarahli's silver platter .....! :icon_lol:
Post by: Andrea on November 20, 2012, 03:58:23 PM
..... and didn't they also find and take MJ's driving licence for identification purposes - or maybe he needed it himself to drive the ambulance! :LolLolLolLol:
Nice one! :icon_lol: THAT could be a clue for sure.
@flory24 - thanks for posting that info. I tried the database with Senneff's and Blount's names, they only come up under the paramedic license category, not EMT or Advanced EMT. Those first 3 names you listed are EMT licenses, not paramedic licenses. But you're right, the license numbers don't match (not even close) to what's on the ambulance report. But they also misspelled Michael's name and got his birthday wrong so the whole document is rife with errors. Could be dismissed as sloppy paperwork but it's probably to provide a loophole of some sort.
Unrelated note - I saw my phone's little light flashing just now, meaning I have an email. It was from michaeljackson.com and the subject line is "Get Ready for Michael Jackson" LOL, that's all I could see as the subject on my phone's screen but when I opened it, it was for the BAD 25 special this Thursday. :icon_lol:
Post by: paula-c on November 20, 2012, 06:27:01 PM
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1359/capture6rb.png) (http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5013/ucla03detalle.jpg)
Post by: MJonmind on November 20, 2012, 09:44:41 PM
Quote
TS taught me this during the study of the Carrolwood gates video (when we were trying to prove one day of filming or two) which removed the watersprouts from the shrubs along side the entrance of the house. Low resolution has large pixels which pick up the major background color and enlarge it to create a square of that single color, effectively erasing all subtle detail within that square of space, resulting in the appearance of a flat surface as opposed to one that has minor detail; too minor for the resolution to pick up on film.What a great teacher he’s been! Giving us teaser bits and forcing us to discover the rest.
Bec
Quote
Yes but the "stalker" fan saw something on the stretcher so that refutes the nothing theory.Yes she thought the body was too short to be MJ. The MJ casket was described as too short. The autopsy pic with the rumpled sheets didn’t show MJ’s feet.
I like how the dummy shown on the previous page was just the torso, and then when put with the legs, the cloth covering the privates maybe covers the joining line also.
Andrea
Quote
It is quite odd that only 2 of 4 had to testify, especially when Murray's actions that day were a major focus of the trial. I would think the prosecution would want all 4 paramedics to testify, I mean, they called a witness from a cell phone company about Murray's texts/calls that day so why not get the full picture from 4 key witnesses who were actually there with Murray? Maybe there was an agreement in place that the other 2 would participate in the events that day but wouldn't have to testify. And their lack of testimony definitely leaves a space available for MJ. And if MJ wasn't on the stretcher then he would most assuredly be in disguise.It’s true that what WASN’T mentioned or focused on throughout the hoax and trial, speaks volumes as well. MJ's been cleverly selective to weave the story-line which the fans and public bought wholesale. If we hoaxers were organizing the trial, we would have blown the whole hoax wide open :icon_twisted: :icon_lol: and spoiled everything.
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2012, 10:07:52 PM
... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
:th_bravo:
This answer is close enough, for our purposes. In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2012, 10:19:20 PM
... I just have to add, along with the sole reason we are speculating that Blount might be an FBI agent is because TS is pushing this theory and we are trying to resolve it somehow... the sole reason we accept that Blount was not scheduled to work that shift is because TS says so. The pic that was posted in 2009 of the LAFD shift schedule was never substantiated to be current on 6/25/09 (as it was posted at a later date--schedules can/do get changed), which is why the topic long ago got ditched. We are only running with this story line now because "TS says so"... unless I'm missing some information.
Agreed, it is speculation that Blount is FBI, merely because I mentioned him--especially since that is NOT why I mentioned Blount.
Also agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.
Post by: ellyd on November 20, 2012, 10:20:16 PM
... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
:th_bravo:
This answer is close enough, for our purposes. In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).
Broad perspective is close.
Makes the sting an artistic one and not a criminal one.
Post by: Andrea on November 20, 2012, 10:24:49 PM
It does make sense that the sting targets would be "them", those who think they run the world behind the scenes. Truth will only prevail once those who have been lying to everyone have been exposed. It's been a central theme of TIAI in the past 3 years. They have always been my favorite choice for sting targets, it'll be a wake-up call. Best to get them post-BAM when Michael has the world's attention.
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2012, 10:36:25 PM
... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
:th_bravo:
This answer is close enough, for our purposes. In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).
Broad perspective is close.
Makes the sting an artistic one ...
:icon_exclaim: :icon_exclaim: :icon_exclaim:
Quote
... and not a criminal one.
:computer-losy-smiley: :computer-losy-smiley: :computer-losy-smiley:
Post by: Adi on November 20, 2012, 10:52:58 PM
Agreed, it is speculation that Blount is FBI, merely because I mentioned him--especially since that is NOT why I mentioned Blount.
Also agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.
Ok - so schedules change - yep indeedy.
We have no idea who changed it or why, or even if in fact it really was changed...and yes it is all speculation that Blount is FBI...so what was the reason for him having his shift changed and bring him into that shift on that day?
If he's not FBI then maybe it just was a simple having to cover someone else off sick. I seriously have no idea why his shift was changed when I don't have all the facts....until then it IS all speculation.
...why was it important to mention his change in shift anyway - if indeed that is what occurred?
Post by: ellyd on November 20, 2012, 10:53:08 PM
We are wracking our brains away and are spending trillions of hours to support this case and find the truth.
If you state that broad perspective is ok for your (plural = several persons) purposes for now, you imply that the individual criminal sting (multiple choice following)
a) cannot be mentioned for some reasons,
b) is not important for us to know
c) is not important for us to know for now
d) is not focus to be discussed (now)
e) is not what we should be thinking of
f) is not what you want us to look at
g) is not an opportune subject to discuss for third party reasons
h) is something to remain behind the curtain
.
.
.
.
or whatever other reason one may find for not getting into a precise "this is it".
Mercy, ok?
We are still going big circles, still buying more time and at least speaking for myself: I am really tired of that.
I might be too blind, too, like the rest of this world, but this doesn't mean we need to shake desktops.
;-)
Post by: RK on November 20, 2012, 11:14:32 PM
TS pointing out that Blount had a shift change and was brought in indicates to me that there were less than we think involved in the initial hoax death scene. This sort of variable makes it hard to control such an operation.
This is why I'm going with there was a body there that day, and that not all the paramedics would have been in on it. Simply doing their job. Remembering the warm room temperature, the staff being sent out before the removal among a few things seem to be indicating the most likely scenario.
Post by: TS_comments on November 20, 2012, 11:21:29 PM
... If he's not FBI then maybe it just was a simple having to cover someone else off sick. ...
:icon_idea:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 20, 2012, 11:30:11 PM
... If he's not FBI then maybe it just was a simple having to cover someone else off sick. ...
:icon_idea:
or could it be possible that Blount was shifted as a part of the sting...I mean to say that Blount is not any FBI agent, but he's been brought into this whole hoax situation to reveal something... ???
thank u for quoting BTW! :)
edit: I sort of feel that Blount was nervous during the trial...
he might have been, without his notice, used as a tool....
Post by: Adi on November 20, 2012, 11:30:11 PM
... If he's not FBI then maybe it just was a simple having to cover someone else off sick. ...
:icon_idea:
lol .... TS ...don't do that to me......now I am just going to wander off on all sorts of speculating tangents.
Post by: bec on November 20, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
... I just have to add, along with the sole reason we are speculating that Blount might be an FBI agent is because TS is pushing this theory and we are trying to resolve it somehow... the sole reason we accept that Blount was not scheduled to work that shift is because TS says so. The pic that was posted in 2009 of the LAFD shift schedule was never substantiated to be current on 6/25/09 (as it was posted at a later date--schedules can/do get changed), which is why the topic long ago got ditched. We are only running with this story line now because "TS says so"... unless I'm missing some information.
Agreed, it is speculation that Blount is FBI, merely because I mentioned him--especially since that is NOT why I mentioned Blount.
Also agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.
Again, unless I'm missing or overlooking some information, there is no evidence that there WAS a paramedic shift shift change on 6/25/09. For all we know it could have been the regularly scheduled shift, a day like any other, on 6/25/09. We're only speculating there was a shift change because, TS, you are suggesting as such in your posts. What makes you say there was a shift change? Maybe the schedule changes weekly in rotating fashion. Maybe it had just changed quarterly or whathaveyou right before the pic was taken in 2009. Maybe it had been that way for years until some time in July 2009, maybe someone retired/transferred/got fired/quit. Blount didn't mention anything about a shift change or working with an unfamiliar team in his testimony, and neither did Senneff, I haven't even heard media rumors to this account. I'm curious about your supportive evidence for this theory.
But if it doesn't really matter, and your point is only that schedules change, I hope the Big Picture that we are supposed to get is not that Schedules (ahem) Change (cough) Unexpectedly.
Post by: Adi on November 21, 2012, 12:27:29 AM
At about 5:32 he talks about not recognising the patient and then at a "point later" he learned that the patient was Michael Jackson.
At around 8:20 he talks about the EKG monitor being hooked up to the patient and that the patient had flat lined.
At around 10:30 he talks about how he asked Dr M what was the patients underlying condition and when Dr M didn't answer satisfactorily he went on to explain to Dr M the "the reason I am asking is because I see an underweight patient, I see an IV and I see medication vials on the night stand.."
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrccoOTZt7Y[/youtube]
This part below is also very interesting - Senneffs testimony from about 3:00 he talks about how his observations of the patient and the condition of the patient did not line up that the episode had happened not too long before they arrived at the house (according to what Dr M told them).
He talks about how the patients skin was very cool to the touch, eyes open dry and pupils dilated and when he hooked up the EKG machine it showed he was flat lined & the capnography reading was low
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
Post by: diggyon on November 21, 2012, 12:45:40 AM
Blount was Michael in disguise! Shift change was necessary for Michael to enter the scene and cover up things.
We can come out with sooooo many theories. It is not easy to know what really happened during that day. We just don't have enough clues and hints. :icon_rolleyes:
Did TS confirm that Michael has left the country a couple of days before June 25th?? I guess I missed that part!
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 01:49:49 AM
Here is part of Senneff's testimony. Quite an interesting portion of it I think.
At about 5:32 he talks about not recognising the patient and then at a "point later" he learned that the patient was Michael Jackson.
At around 8:20 he talks about the EKG monitor being hooked up to the patient and that the patient had flat lined.
At around 10:30 he talks about how he asked Dr M what was the patients underlying condition and when Dr M didn't answer satisfactorily he went on to explain to Dr M the "the reason I am asking is because I see an underweight patient, I see an IV and I see medication vials on the night stand.."
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrccoOTZt7Y[/youtube]
This part below is also very interesting - Senneffs testimony from about 3:00 he talks about how his observations of the patient and the condition of the patient did not line up that the episode had happened not too long before they arrived at the house (according to what Dr M told them).
He talks about how the patients skin was very cool to the touch, eyes open dry and pupils dilated and when he hooked up the EKG machine it showed he was flat lined & the capnography reading was low
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
so do you mean to say that there was no dummy, but a corpse?
Okay, here is my theory:
Blount was Michael in disguise! Shift change was necessary for Michael to enter the scene and cover up things.
We can come out with sooooo many theories. It is not easy to know what really happened during that day. We just don't have enough clues and hints. :icon_rolleyes:
Did TS confirm that Michael has left the country a couple of days before June 25th?? I guess I missed that part!
if we go by your theory, it would mean ALL the paramedics are in the hoax...
----------------------------
http://www.firehouse.com/search/:70336/martin-blount:70324/vv
I found this link. It says: "One thing is for sure in EMS – whenever you start your shift, you do..."
I clicked on the link to read more, but it says one needs to login, and register...
so I definitely can't, cause i'm not a fireman...
I thought that i might get some information about the shift of Martin Blount from A to C.
Anyways quoting this:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317143#p317161 from im_convincedmjalive
Quote
Debunking the theory of the paramedics who arrived at Michael's house on 6/25/2009 being FBI. Only 1 key person is needed at Fire station 71. That is the fire captain.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggewNtwvHJ4[/youtube]
Paramedic Blount A shift. Paramedic Senneff C shift BOTH REAL. NOT FBI.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2 ... spita.html
Michael Jackson hearing: Paparazzi, fans hampered paramedics from getting stricken pop star to hospital
January 6, 2011 | 10:58 am
A paramedic who tried in vain to save Michael Jackson’s life testified Thursday that an unruly crowd of paparazzi and tourists outside the pop star’s home hampered efforts to get to the hospital recalled Los Angeles City Fire Department paramedic Richard “It’s a circus out there. It’s unbelievable,” Richard Senneff of the scene outside Jackson’s Holmby Hills mansion June 25, 2009.
The witness testified on the second day of testimony at a hearing to determine whether there is enough evidence to try Dr. Conrad Murray for involuntary manslaughter.
has this Martin Blount shift thing been discussed before in this forum?
Post by: curls on November 21, 2012, 02:16:33 AM
:LolLolLolLol: Actually this doesn't make sense, given that he was the one working at 'MJ's head - out of all of them, he must've been aware of whatever 'the body' was.
So, I'll change my original sentence to: the fact schedules can change unexpectedly could mean that Blount was not meant to be on duty that day (but was called in 'unexpectedly' to suit MJ's planning), and therefore he was definitely in on the hoax (while all the others may not have been).
But, as has been pointed out we're only talking about this because TS mentioned it. We don't normally take his word for anything - which doesn't bode well @TS, for when/if you reveal yourself!! :icon_lol: :icon_e_surprised:
Post by: Adi on November 21, 2012, 04:35:49 AM
Quote
so do you mean to say that there was no dummy, but a corpse?
I don't know "what" there was that day.....none of us do, except perhaps for possibly 2 members here *cough cough*. However my opinion is that it was either a real body or a life like dummy. But I am leaning more towards a real body.
If it was a real body, I am thinking of the use of "alleged victim" and "alleged date" in the reading of the verdict. A real body being used most likely would have died on a different date and also certainly wasn't Michael Jackson.
I think the 2 videos I posted above of Senneff's testimony under oath goes a bit towards supporting the theory of a real body being used - he indicates he didn't know the patient was Michael Jackson straight away until a "point later" (I wonder how much later that "point" was?), the patient was underweight, was hooked up to an IV drip and there were medication vials on the night stand, the patient was basically already dead because he had flat lined and the timing of the episode did not match up with what he observed of the physical signs of the patient. I mean for all we know the body may have been a terminally ill hopsice patient who had been on life support at Carolwood.
I have been looking at the testimony of the Emergency Doctor too - Dr Richelle Cooper - it is long and I will have to go back and find the exact section - but at one point she is asked does she know the time of the death of Michael Jackson and replies she didn't know and that he was clinically dead when he arrived at the ER at UCLA.
There was also the testimony of the UCLA Cardiologist Dr. Thao Nguyen who also testified that she thought he was dead on arrival at UCLA ( again I have to go back and rewatch her testimony) and find the section.
Having said all that - it's speculation on my part stemming from how I am interpreting the information I have watched and listened to.
Post by: MJonmind on November 21, 2012, 05:58:34 AM
Quote
Also agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.The fact he was put on shift C that day randomly shows the hoax would work even if unforeseen changes happen, as they do in a fast-paced world. So where does that leave us if perhaps the EMT’s were not in on the hoax? They were all just doing their job that day. To prepare for executing this hoax, like the old series Mission Impossible, MJ had to know perfectly the regular daily routine and possible variation of every one of the groups of people involved in the hoax, so that even if there were some slight changes, it wouldn't be drastic enough to derail the main event.
Adi
Quote
I mean for all we know the body may have been a terminally ill hopsice patient who had been on life support at Carolwood.No one was allowed upstairs in that room besides MJ, the kids and Murray, for we don't know how long--pehaps months. The Michael Bush 'Dressing the King of Pop' book was going to give some proceeds to a Hospice, can't remember location. Also Elvis used a patient on life-support, pulling the plug on 'death' day, and we know the many hoax parallels were planned on purpose. But instead of the problematic melting wax 'Elvis' in the coffin, MJ's dummy is state of the art. Back to 100 Carolwood, perhaps this patient was given by close family members of a friend of MJ (or arranged by FBI). Kai Chase said she saw Murray dragging oxygen tanks out every day, which is what life-support requires plenty of. But Murray only came to the house in the evening to get ready for MJ staying the night. So who would look after the patient, and Murray may not even be a real doctor. Tohme said he wasn't a practising doctor. There must have been another full-time live-in doctor doing the necessary care, which would likely involve a lot of equipment, meds, etc. EMT's didn't see any when they arrived, but they could have been hidden in another room immediately after the 'doctor' pulled the plug. Remember all that nonsense about Randy J. not having the key and Front said he went in the front door and slipped out the back door. http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,5167.msg356018.html#msg356018 Did someone slip out the back door that was involved? Wasn't there talk about some mysterious other person in the house that day by Latoya or someone, that they suspected helped murder MJ? Okay, so then the day after MJ died, Janet and Latoya were in the house doing whatever, with the big U-haul van who knows if they were setting the next scene for the next 'act'.
My list for who's in could then be:
Yes: Bodygaurd Alberto Alverez, his sister Nicole, Murray, Coroner, head Doctor or nurse at UCLA that dealt with the body on the gurney pic, Kenny Ortega, Randy Phillips, John Branca, MJ's kids and immediate family, Travis Paine, Karen Faye, Harvey Levin, Judge, DA, Defense and clerk in trial, and certain other trusted close friends and sponsors.
No: Other bodyguards, all EMT's, UCLA staff, house employees, dancers, etc.
TS, is this minimal enough?
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 06:22:51 AM
are you sure the dancers are not involved? well, they were present at the burial which is (definitely) fake...
I've been thinking about this for quite some time: Can't the people who are subject to a sting operation (or under the sting) by Michael check out this forum(or any other website) to know whatever's going on ? if they can, it's giving them a chance to be pro-active...TS, what do you think?
Post by: Adi on November 21, 2012, 07:00:56 AM
It was on the lawns of Forest Lawn under a kind of marquee. Someone found photos of it, and there might have been a video as well which made it onto the internet. There were people kissing a coffin from memory. The pics were not very clear and it didn't seem like anyone was from the Jackson family. There was a dude who was wearing a cap which I seem to vaguely recall had something on it which was significant to the hoax - but I can't remember what it was (either, 9282 - days from Pepsi burn to death, or an LA Fire Dept logo?)
Does anyone else remember this? A while back I tried to find the pics again but couldn't.
IF this was real perhaps it was a burial for the "alleged victim" ?
Post by: diggyon on November 21, 2012, 07:05:48 AM
Just thinking of your post @MJonmind....I recall from a VERY early in hoax time a "private burial service" in the days after the Memorial service (or maybe even the same day) of what was meant to be allegedly MJ and was only for family and very close friends. There weren't many people there - it was very intimate.
It was on the lawns of Forrest lawn under a kind of marquee. Someone found photos of it, and there might have been a video as well which made it onto the internet. There were people kissing a coffin from memory. The pics were not very clear and it didn't seem like anyone was from the Jackson family. There was a dude who was wearing a cap which I seem to vaguely recall had something on it which was significant to the hoax - but I can't remember what it was (either, 9282 - days from Pepsi burn to death, or an LA Fire Dept logo?)
Does anyone else remember this? A while back I tried to find the pics again but couldn't.
IF this was real perhaps it was a burial for the "alleged victim" ?
So you support the corpse theory them!
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 07:09:46 AM
Want to post in detail but am feeling unwell, so will keep it to a few words. I still vote 'nay' on corpse theory.
And also 'Nay' to sting. But I could be wrong. Can't wait to see what eventuates post bam re: Unsolved mysteries :)
@ thriller4ever. Dancers are definitely in. They are actors as well as dancers :icon_e_wink:
And of course my post is only JMO
Post by: curls on November 21, 2012, 07:13:16 AM
TSQuoteAlso agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.The fact he was put on shift C that day randomly shows the hoax would work even if unforeseen changes happen, as they do in a fast-paced world. So where does that leave us if perhaps the EMT’s were not in on the hoax? They were all just doing their job that day. To prepare for executing this hoax, like the old series Mission Impossible, MJ had to know perfectly the regular daily routine and possible variation of every one of the groups of people involved in the hoax, so that even if there were some slight changes, it wouldn't be drastic enough to derail the main event.
I find this a very interesting observation, MJonmind. It takes me back to TS's advice to change nothing except what was needed to execute the hoax, starting from no-one in it, no hoax, MJ died.
I've been very, very against the idea of someone dying in his place,from the start - it always seemed to me a theory that brought more problems than it solved, not least that it's just a totally macabre idea especially with children in the house - but ..... I find myself toying with the idea of what if the only thing changed was that it wasn't MJ who died?
Can't believe I'm even considering it again! :Pulling_hair:
Post by: Adi on November 21, 2012, 07:14:34 AM
Quote
So you support the corpse theory them!
Not sure how you came to that conclusion from my last post......I did say IF this was real i.e if my memory of the private burial, which I posted about, really did occur.
As per my earlier post ( http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429516.html#msg429516 ) yes I did say I was leaning more toward it. But everyone can make up their own minds.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 21, 2012, 07:16:59 AM
Number of Emergency Medical Service Killed or Injured on September 11, 2001, at the World Trade Center: TOO MANY.
I can think of one reason why many officials would get involved if it meant exposing the culprits who staged 911.
So many authorities would help to expose the corruption that caused so much grief and deaths and still continues to cause deaths.........
MJ just escaped with his life that day too......
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 07:30:21 AM
diggyonQuoteSo you support the corpse theory them!
Not sure how you came to that conclusion from my last post......I did say IF this was real i.e if my memory of the private burial, which I posted about, really did occur.
As per my earlier post ( http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429516.html#msg429516 ) yes I did say I was leaning more toward it. But everyone can make up their own minds.
the corpse theory is making more sense to me now...and i actually forgot why i believed the dummy theory...haha! got to sit and think about it...
BTW, a private burial? never heard of it before...
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 07:43:13 AM
Not sure if you remember the beginning of this discussion. The original question was whether witnesses, jury, etc, could be used as "actors" in a mere movie (not a sting), if the people themselves did not know that it was fake (like Candid Camera). They may know in advance that it would be televised, but this does not mean that they would know in advance that it was merely entertainment (if indeed that's all it was). Legally, it's almost certain that the "actors" would need to know and agree in advance, not merely know that it would be televised, but also know that it was fake--UNLESS there is a serious sting involved, then that would change everything.
P.S. If the sting was only on the media and fans (and public), and not dealing with one or more areas of illegal corruption, then a simple movie would do the job (no need for an FBI sting, no need for "alleged", no need for jury to go down the toilet, etc. Unfortunately, the media telling lies and the fans and public believing the lies is NOT illegal (and therefore a sting on them would not need to have a real legal court involved, etc).
Oops forgot to add to my last post.
No sting. Real 'physical' court with real people who are giving real testimonies unbeknownst to them that they are participating in hoax. That way it still limits the number of people who need to be in.
Re: stretcher...
The major ones (who are very few) who come into direct contact with 'the body' are in, on the basis that a) this will still constitute minimum personnel being in and b) that I don't believe a corpse was used, therefore needing the fact it was a dummy kept to minimum people as possible.
Also, Should a real corpse have been used, the risk of it 'not being MJ' possibly witnessed by paramedics, UCLA staff / coroner / autopsy personnel would have been high considering MJs distinguished looks.
Jmo. Happy to be wrong / corrected.
Love you MJ x
Post by: Adi on November 21, 2012, 07:49:10 AM
Could be nothing at all - I just recalled it after the discussion surrounding the theory of a dead body.
http://x17video.com/celebrity_video/michael_jackson/x17_xclusive_aerial_video_of_j.php
Post by: Andrea on November 21, 2012, 07:50:54 AM
Quote
Also agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.
...did you mean by saying "schedules can change" that Michael's schedule changed that day?? Recalling an earlier post of yours where you said his ORIGINAL plan didn't include going to UCLA.
I admit I don't like the corpse theory but it's not something I've ever dismissed, even though it's not the theory I support. I wonder, even when MJ comes back, will he reveal how it went down that day? Maybe the dead body theory will become part of urban legend when people talk about Michael's death hoax, for years and years to come.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 07:55:02 AM
- Corpse theory, would have a few paramedics involved. The UCLA doctors would be involved also the coroner,toxicologist etc. (House staff, not involved.)
-Dummy Theory, most of the paramedics would have to be involved (maybe not all), UCLA doctors and others...(House staff, no need to be involved)
in both the cases, those in the medical field are in on it... [ my question: if there is a sting operation for pharmaceuticals, who is under it?]
So the only question is, was it a dummy/corpse that was taken to UCLA, and how many paramedics are in...
Another question, if there was a corpse used, what was the necessity to use it? How will the use of corpse affect the hoax? Does this have anything to do with a sting on pharmas?
Post by: BeTheChange on November 21, 2012, 08:02:09 AM
I took a stroll down memory lane yesterday...revisiting older posts in this thread and some others...and that just proved the point. So, I'm not quite sure what TS' goal is right now in reopening these discussions. Perhaps we missed some pieces along the way and he's trying to get us to hone in on them...but again, there's been no 'new' pieces that I've seen since his reappearance. Maybe he's gauging how far along we've come in our investigative skills and our ability to piece together 'evidence' that we couldn't/didn't a year ago...but again, we aren't any further along than we were. Or maybe his 'goal' is something completely different.
Based on many of the posts I came across while on my stroll....and no matter what, if anything, TS' goal is right now...hopefully Level 7 has taught us that NO ONE should be ridiculed for having a different perspective and NO ONE should be riding a 'high horse' while trying to solve any puzzle while holding only a fraction of the pieces.
Much like 'schedules', ideas/opinions are bound to change. It's good to see that now, unlike a year ago, people aren't putting others down while trying to raise themselves up. Maybe that was one of the lessons to be learned all along.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 08:07:10 AM
TSQuoteAlso agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.The fact he was put on shift C that day randomly shows the hoax would work even if unforeseen changes happen, as they do in a fast-paced world. So where does that leave us if perhaps the EMT’s were not in on the hoax? They were all just doing their job that day. To prepare for executing this hoax, like the old series Mission Impossible, MJ had to know perfectly the regular daily routine and possible variation of every one of the groups of people involved in the hoax, so that even if there were some slight changes, it wouldn't be drastic enough to derail the main event.
I find this a very interesting observation, MJonmind. It takes me back to TS's advice to change nothing except what was needed to execute the hoax, starting from no-one in it, no hoax, MJ died.
... I find myself toying with the idea of what if the only thing changed was that it wasn't MJ who died?
:th_bravo:
And yes, MJonmind, doing things in real time (Level 7a, remember) opens the possibility, even if small, that a paramedic might show up that was not originally planned to be there; and the same goes for UCLA staff.
This was my main purpose of mentioning Blount from another shift--whether he was actually from another shift, whether he was there unplanned, or whether he was from the same shift and in on the hoax, the point remains the same: plan the hoax around the realistic possibility that someone shows up unexpectedly.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 08:10:37 AM
No corpse!! :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 08:14:44 AM
In all honesty and when I consider how long this has been going, how can we ever know what really happened? We go round and round in circles with the mental gymnatics (http://mail.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo48.gif).... so TS ....
Here's the silver platter.... now dish out the facts dude! ::)
(http://www.alpersonpartyrentals.com/CATALOG/platters,%20trays%20&%20chargers/square%20&%20rectangular/Silver%20Tray%20with%20Handles%2013x20%20-%20$9.00.jpg)
:LolLolLolLol:
Yes, it may be about time for the platter.
:abouttime:
However, just because I say that things were done a certain way, does not mean that everyone will believe me--and in fact, it is good if people don't just take my word merely because I say so. Nevertheless, it is hard and time consuming to back up what I say with strong evidence.
:Pulling_hair: :LolLolLolLol:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 08:18:44 AM
TSQuoteAlso agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.The fact he was put on shift C that day randomly shows the hoax would work even if unforeseen changes happen, as they do in a fast-paced world. So where does that leave us if perhaps the EMT’s were not in on the hoax? They were all just doing their job that day. To prepare for executing this hoax, like the old series Mission Impossible, MJ had to know perfectly the regular daily routine and possible variation of every one of the groups of people involved in the hoax, so that even if there were some slight changes, it wouldn't be drastic enough to derail the main event.
I find this a very interesting observation, MJonmind. It takes me back to TS's advice to change nothing except what was needed to execute the hoax, starting from no-one in it, no hoax, MJ died.
... I find myself toying with the idea of what if the only thing changed was that it wasn't MJ who died?
:th_bravo:
And yes, MJonmind, doing things in real time (Level 7a, remember) opens the possibility, even if small, that a paramedic might show up that was not originally planned to be there; and the same goes for UCLA staff.
This was my main purpose of mentioning Blount from another shift--whether he was actually from another shift, whether he was there unplanned, or whether he was from the same shift and in on the hoax, the point remains the same: plan the hoax around the realistic possibility that someone shows up unexpectedly.
you are just saying or any of such changes occured?
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 08:25:15 AM
Quote
This was my main purpose of mentioning Blount from another shift--whether he was actually from another shift, whether he was there unplanned, or whether he was from the same shift and in on the hoax, the point remains the same: plan the hoax around the realistic possibility that someone shows up unexpectedly.
so it must've been a corpse that went to UCLA! because if Blount came there unexpectedly there would be no reason for him to suspect that the body was not real or any kind of suspicion...a dummy would've raised suspicion...
a corpse went to UCLA...
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 08:26:17 AM
I vote No corpse!! :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
LOL
Love this hoax, best invention ever!
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 08:28:11 AM
(unsure if I'm 100% on this) but considering hoax started in bad era, reference to 'Annie' in Smth Crim. hints to a dummy, considering resuscitation dummy is referred to as an Annie.... But I may be off with that one...
I vote No corpse!! :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
LOL
Love this hoax, best invention ever!
But the plans for hoax may change...that's what we learned just now...the hoax must go on...
Post by: Andrea on November 21, 2012, 08:33:06 AM
Blount was the one who said he "immediately" recognized the patient as Michael Jackson. I agree it makes sense to plan the hoax in a way that allows for something unexpected happening but that doesn't mean the paramedics weren't in on it. Once again, remember the ambulance backing so slowly out of the driveway. If there was a real body and Murray refused to call his death at the house, there would be an urgency to get this dead/dying body to the hospital.
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 08:34:14 AM
... Also, Should a real corpse have been used, the risk of it 'not being MJ' possibly witnessed by paramedics, UCLA staff / coroner / autopsy personnel would have been high considering MJs distinguished looks. ..."
Actually, the risk of someone who didn't look too much like MJ is much less of a risk than a dummy being discovered by someone not in the hoax.
Consider the fact that it has actually been reported, both on TMZ and in court, that the patient looked like a frail hospice patient, and not MJ, etc. But does the public think twice about these reports, or do they just continue believing the official story?
Now what if it came out on TMZ and in court that a dummy had been discovered, do you really think that the public would not think twice about it??
Also, over the years--and especially leading into June 25,2009--many things were done (or at least reported), to create confusion about MJ's appearance--so much so that even some stalker fans apparently could not tell the real from a double. Was perhaps there a reason for this, or just a random koinkidink?
Doubles used ...
Plastic surgery ...
Baldness and wigs ...
Masks ...
Not out in public much ...
And more ...
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 08:35:57 AM
No corpse!! :icon_razz:
Just having fun now. Corpse / dummy, it really is inconsequential really. But our inquisitive minds must know!!!!
I guess too that knowing / working out all the fine details makes one appreciate the complexity of every part of the hoax.
How's that platter going TS? Time to dish up yet???
Love you MJ :bearhug:
Post by: mindseye on November 21, 2012, 08:37:59 AM
TS...QuoteThis was my main purpose of mentioning Blount from another shift--whether he was actually from another shift, whether he was there unplanned, or whether he was from the same shift and in on the hoax, the point remains the same: plan the hoax around the realistic possibility that someone shows up unexpectedly.
so it must've been a corpse that went to UCLA! because if Blount came there unexpectedly there would be no reason for him to suspect that the body was not real or any kind of suspicion...a dummy would've raised suspicion...
a corpse went to UCLA...
Even if it was a dummy, there were enough ppl involved to go ahead as planned, so I think if Blount or someone showed up unexpectedly, he/they would probably just follow along ... maybe there were questions - we don't know what dialogue went on at that time. Then soon after he was informed and unexpectedly taking part in the hoax. :icon_e_confused: :icon_question:
(unsure if I'm 100% on this) but considering hoax started in bad era, reference to 'Annie' in Smth Crim. hints to a dummy, considering resuscitation dummy is referred to as an Annie.... But I may be off with that one...
I vote No corpse!! :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
LOL
Love this hoax, best invention ever!
I agree, I believe it was a dummy - no corpse. :icon_e_biggrin: I've mentioned before, this sticks with me... 'who you calling a dummy?' Front :icon_lol:
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 08:47:46 AM
... continuing on my last post ...
Notice also that many things were done, to confuse the appearance of the patient.
Blount: “he had an IV attached to his leg”, a “nasal cannula … attached to his nose”, “a condom catheter attached to him”; “and all of that was in place, when” Blount “first saw Mr. Jackson”; and Blount “described Mr. Jackson as being very pale and very thin”
{~0:50, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wh0omtmt-E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wh0omtmt-E); see also ~12:00, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ03Oo_ppjg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ03Oo_ppjg)}
“[Senneff:] The patient was dressed with pajama bottoms, a pajama top; the top was open, the patient was wearing a surgical cap, or something similar, covering his hair; and he appeared to be underweight to me.” {~9:15, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44lw6Y_FiQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44lw6Y_FiQ)}
“[Senneff:] … his eyes were open, they were dry, and his pupils were dilated.”
{~3:45, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ)}
“Richard Senneff testified when he arrived at MJ's house and saw MJ, he looked like a hospice patient – extremely frail.” {http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/michael-jackson-doctor-conrad-murray-preliminary-hearing-trial-witness-propofol-death-week1/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/michael-jackson-doctor-conrad-murray-preliminary-hearing-trial-witness-propofol-death-week1/)}
Edit: also a strap going under the chin, and around behind the ears and head (but don't ask me to find that one, maybe someone else can find it).
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 08:51:55 AM
“[Brazil:] At, at this point in time, have you recognized the patient as anyone that you’re familiar with? [Senneff:] No, I haven’t even looked. [Brazil:] You haven’t looked at the patient at all? [Senneff:] No I’ve, I’ve looked at the patient; but I didn’t really look at the whole face, I, — I was busy. [Brazil:] At some point, did you learn that the patient that was on the floor that you were treating was in fact Michael Jackson? [Senneff:] I did.” {~5:30, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrccoOTZt7Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrccoOTZt7Y)}
“[Brazil:] When you entered the room, and you saw the patient, did you recognize who the patient was? [Blount:] Yes, ma’am. [Brazil:] Did you immediately recognize him? [Blount:] Yes, ma’am. [Brazil:] And you recognized him to be, Mr. Michael Jackson—correct? [Blount:] Yes, ma’am.” {~7:30, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXU2KE1j_k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXU2KE1j_k)}
Post by: paula-c on November 21, 2012, 08:52:15 AM
In all honesty and when I consider how long this has been going, how can we ever know what really happened? We go round and round in circles with the mental gymnatics (http://mail.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo48.gif).... so TS ....
Here's the silver platter.... now dish out the facts dude! ::)
(http://www.alpersonpartyrentals.com/CATALOG/platters,%20trays%20&%20chargers/square%20&%20rectangular/Silver%20Tray%20with%20Handles%2013x20%20-%20$9.00.jpg)
:LolLolLolLol:
Yes, it may be about time for the platter.
:abouttime:
However, just because I say that things were done a certain way, does not mean that everyone will believe me--and in fact, it is good if people don't just take my word merely because I say so. Nevertheless, it is hard and time consuming to back up what I say with strong evidence.
:Pulling_hair: :LolLolLolLol:
We can actually test what or who was in the ambulance, where is the evidence to prove this thesis or theory. The only reality is that the only thing we have are a lot of contradictions.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 08:52:41 AM
I'm also factoring into my 'no corpse' decision, the ethical ramifications post BAM if / when it comes out that MJ used a corpse to hoax his death vs MJ used a dummy to fake his death.
Re: MJs looks, yes you have a point about questions around MJs looks and why the illusion is being put out. But this could also be argued as standard 'business as usual' when it comes to decoys / body doubles / privacy etc...
Quote
TS:
Now what if it came out on TMZ and in court that a dummy had been discovered, do you really think that the public would not think twice about it??
True. But with respect, anything about any 'classified' part of the hoax could have come out via TMZ or in court over the past few years, and make the public scratch their heads.
I think the select individuals in charge of the body aka dummy (who i believe were 'in') had to operate very carefully knowing the risk that it carried ensuring transportation etc went off without a hitch as it was an integral if not THE most integral part of the day. Having said that MJ certainly wouldn't leave such tasks to a paramedic / health worker rookie. In fact they might not be health staff at all rather actors like the dancers or security staff trained in first aid and medical procedure (Playing a role) George Clooney did it well also many other medical drama actors :icon_e_wink:
Ok spit balling here....
I'm happy to be wrong. I'm just grateful to be here.
Luv ya TS thanks for giving so much of yourself to this thread :bearhug:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 09:07:24 AM
Having a dummy play as MJ would be highly risky, because of it high chances of recognition.
[ and i feel that the paramedics would be able to tell whether it's a dummy. ]
So, as the hoax had to be done (at any cost), a real hospice patient was present in the room on 6/25/2009. The involvement of paramedics in the hoax is not clear to me at this point.
Notice also the difference in the reports of Senneff and Blount, regarding the recognition of the patient.
“[Brazil:] At, at this point in time, have you recognized the patient as anyone that you’re familiar with? [Senneff:] No, I haven’t even looked. [Brazil:] You haven’t looked at the patient at all? [Senneff:] No I’ve, I’ve looked at the patient; but I didn’t really look at the whole face, I, — I was busy. [Brazil:] At some point, did you learn that the patient that was on the floor that you were treating was in fact Michael Jackson? [Senneff:] I did.” {~5:30, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrccoOTZt7Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrccoOTZt7Y)}
“[Brazil:] When you entered the room, and you saw the patient, did you recognize who the patient was? [Blount:] Yes, ma’am. [Brazil:] Did you immediately recognize him? [Blount:] Yes, ma’am. [Brazil:] And you recognized him to be, Mr. Michael Jackson—correct? [Blount:] Yes, ma’am.” {~7:30, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXU2KE1j_k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXU2KE1j_k)}
could this contradiction between Blount and senneff be a clue regarding who's in the hoax and who's not?
Senneff maybe wasn't in the hoax and Blount was...which is what this contradiction says. Because one knowing it's MJ and the other not knowing, is ridiculous. These both guys are working on a patient and there has to be communication between them.
Its not possible that one guy thinks it's MJ and not expresses it to the other guy that it is, in fact, MJ
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 09:10:48 AM
... continuing on my last post ...
Notice also that many things were done, to confuse the appearance of the patient.
Blount: “he had an IV attached to his leg”, a “nasal cannula … attached to his nose”, “a condom catheter attached to him”; “and all of that was in place, when” Blount “first saw Mr. Jackson”; and Blount “described Mr. Jackson as being very pale and very thin”
{~0:50, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wh0omtmt-E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wh0omtmt-E); see also ~12:00, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ03Oo_ppjg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ03Oo_ppjg)}
“[Senneff:] The patient was dressed with pajama bottoms, a pajama top; the top was open, the patient was wearing a surgical cap, or something similar, covering his hair; and he appeared to be underweight to me.” {~9:15, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44lw6Y_FiQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44lw6Y_FiQ)}
Edit: also a strap going under the chin, and around behind the ears and head (but don't ask me to find that one, maybe someone else can find it).
“[Senneff:] … his eyes were open, they were dry, and his pupils were dilated.”
{~3:45, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ)}
“Richard Senneff testified when he arrived at MJ's house and saw MJ, he looked like a hospice patient – extremely frail.” {http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/michael-jackson-doctor-conrad-murray-preliminary-hearing-trial-witness-propofol-death-week1/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/michael-jackson-doctor-conrad-murray-preliminary-hearing-trial-witness-propofol-death-week1/)}
Edit: also a strap going under the chin, and around behind the ears and head (but don't ask me to find that one, maybe someone else can find it).
Oh, and one more thing ...
Does this description fit exactly what we see in the ambo pic???
:icon_e_confused: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_bounce: :icon_e_surprised: :icon_geek: :suspect: :animal0017:
Post by: paula-c on November 21, 2012, 09:22:08 AM
... continuing on my last post ...
Notice also that many things were done, to confuse the appearance of the patient.
Blount: “he had an IV attached to his leg”, a “nasal cannula … attached to his nose”, “a condom catheter attached to him”; “and all of that was in place, when” Blount “first saw Mr. Jackson”; and Blount “described Mr. Jackson as being very pale and very thin”
{~0:50, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wh0omtmt-E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wh0omtmt-E); see also ~12:00, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ03Oo_ppjg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ03Oo_ppjg)}
“[Senneff:] The patient was dressed with pajama bottoms, a pajama top; the top was open, the patient was wearing a surgical cap, or something similar, covering his hair; and he appeared to be underweight to me.” {~9:15, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44lw6Y_FiQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44lw6Y_FiQ)}
Edit: also a strap going under the chin, and around behind the ears and head (but don't ask me to find that one, maybe someone else can find it).
“[Senneff:] … his eyes were open, they were dry, and his pupils were dilated.”
{~3:45, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ)}
“Richard Senneff testified when he arrived at MJ's house and saw MJ, he looked like a hospice patient – extremely frail.” {http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/michael-jackson-doctor-conrad-murray-preliminary-hearing-trial-witness-propofol-death-week1/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/michael-jackson-doctor-conrad-murray-preliminary-hearing-trial-witness-propofol-death-week1/)}
Edit: also a strap going under the chin, and around behind the ears and head (but don't ask me to find that one, maybe someone else can find it).
Oh, and one more thing ...
Does this description fit exactly what we see in the ambo pic???
:icon_e_confused: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_bounce: :icon_e_surprised: :icon_geek: :suspect: :animal0017:
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/ambulancef.jpg)
Post by: Jos on November 21, 2012, 09:23:09 AM
What about the family of the patient, or the (possible) pain and drama,this person was going through (the end of) his life?
You can't just "use" such a real person for this, that's rude.
And seriously, what would the world think, when this comes out?
"MJ used a hospice patient for his death hoax". Don't you think the people will think that MJ is crazier than they allready thought?
I'm sorry but I can't see how a used corpse can help him to build up a better image for him as a person.
If there wasn't a dummy involved, there must be another possibilty.
But hey, that's just me :)
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 09:24:34 AM
... could this contradiction between Blount and senneff be a clue regarding who's in the hoax and who's not?
Senneff maybe wasn't in the hoax and Blount was...which is what this contradiction says. ...
Yes, but maybe you have it backwards. What if Senneff was in the hoax--since it is apparently him in the pre-staged ambo pic? Senneff knew that the patient was not Michael JOE Jackson, and he also knew (or learned) that the patient was Michael JOSEPH Jackson.
But how did Blount "immediately" recognize MJ, with all the paraphernalia? Simple: Blount knew this was the KOP's house, and the master bedroom, and someone was on the bed which was not a child, not female, not a horse, etc; so Blount assumed it was MJ, by the normal process of context, and the normal way that our brains work. After a while, though, while working more closely with the patient, Blount began to realize that it did not appear to be MJ after all (which is what the stalker fan reported, at UCLA, which was long after Blount walked in the room and "immediately" recognized MJ).
Post by: paula-c on November 21, 2012, 09:28:48 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 09:29:43 AM
Even so this may avoid legal ramifications post bam but not ethical ramifications....
Not that I judge what is done with a dead body. From dust you are and to the dust you shall return right? (gen.3:19, Ecc.12:7) I'm sure you remember those ones.... :icon_e_wink:
But many others won't see it that way post bam or if 'project corpse' was leaked.
Considering some of the goals are vindication, wrongs righted (although for other reasons) wouldn't you agree that MJ wouldn't want anything that can be interpreted as negative esp the sensitive issue of using circumstances of someone else's death to validate and advance his own personal agenda.
Again, I don't care. But wouldn't you agree that would be the general perception?
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 09:34:36 AM
Who said Blount lied to the fan? That could have easily been the truth and he instead, lied on the stand.
Or maybe Blount did not lie to the fan OR on the stand. Maybe it was just as I portrayed it, in my last post.
Although it's true that we should not gullibly believe everything we hear; on the other hand, it is also true that we should not reject everything we hear--merely because we can’t gullibly believe everything. We should seriously consider taking things at face value, unless there is solid evidence otherwise.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 09:39:08 AM
Having a dummy play as MJ would be highly risky, because of it high chances of recognition.
So, as the hoax had to be done (at any cost), a real hospice patient was present in the room.
Not if the paramedics were in on it. Remember these people had the most important job on the day. Transporting the body. Yes, a paramedic would tell the difference between a body and a dummy. You are right. My bet is that these weren't regular paramedics.... Just like the 911 operator wasn't real operator (jmo)
The were 'in' and they were not only transporting the body but protecting the body, including and most importantly ensuring that no one would see or feel that the body was indeed a dummy.
Again JMO
Post by: paula-c on November 21, 2012, 09:44:39 AM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 21, 2012, 09:45:27 AM
... could this contradiction between Blount and senneff be a clue regarding who's in the hoax and who's not?
Senneff maybe wasn't in the hoax and Blount was...which is what this contradiction says. ...
Yes, but maybe you have it backwards. What if Senneff was in the hoax--since it is apparently him in the pre-staged ambo pic? Senneff knew that the patient was not Michael JOE Jackson, and he also knew (or learned) that the patient was Michael JOSEPH Jackson.
But how did Blount "immediately" recognize MJ, with all the paraphernalia? Simple: Blount knew this was the KOP's house, and the master bedroom, and someone was on the bed which was not a child, not female, not a horse, etc; so Blount assumed it was MJ, by the normal process of context, and the normal way that our brains work. After a while, though, while working more closely with the patient, Blount began to realize that it did not appear to be MJ after all (which is what the stalker fan reported, at UCLA, which was long after Blount walked in the room and "immediately" recognized MJ).
That's a possible scenario...and when mixed in with the power of suggestion (as TS mentioned in the past)...(i.e. all the above factors re: Blount's thought process, as well as those in the know---perhaps Senneff---suggesting and/or 'confirming' that it IS MJ they are working on...would make Blount think it's Mike even more, despite having doubts. Even if doubts remained with Blount after 'that day'....the 'official' story plastered all over the news that it WAS Mike who died, followed by a supposedly 'real' trial (i.e. it 'seemed' pretty real to any who weren't in on the hoax, which may have included Blount), him being called in to testify, etc....would have further 'suggested' to Blount that it was Mike who died.
Given the fact that 'it' all had to work without a hitch...there would've been no 'do-overs' on June 25th...and the possibility of something/someone showing up who hadn't been planned on (other than planning for the unexpected), the corpse theory makes sense IF Blount is not in on it, since he was the one working the 'patient' the whole time. Not sure a dummy would have fooled a trained EMT actively working the 'body'.
I vaguely recall thinking/posting about Senneff being in on it because his testimony was closest in supporting Alvarez's account of events (and I believe Alvarez was in on it). Also, it was Senneff who went back into the house after the 'body' was loaded into the ambulance...perhaps to have a tete-a-tete with Murray about how things were going so far lol.
P.S. Wishing TS and everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 09:49:47 AM
Having a dummy play as MJ would be highly risky, because of it high chances of recognition.
So, as the hoax had to be done (at any cost), a real hospice patient was present in the room.
Not if the paramedics were in on it. Remember these people had the most important job on the day. Transporting the body. Yes, a paramedic would tell the difference between a body and a dummy. You are right. My bet is that these weren't regular paramedics.... Just like the 911 operator wasn't real operator (jmo)
The were 'in' and they were not only transporting the body but protecting the body, including and most importantly ensuring that no one would see or feel that the body was indeed a dummy.
Again JMO
But the hoax had to go on under any circumstance. Even if some other paramedic appeared opposed to what was planned, it needed to be made sure that the other paramedic wouldn't really notice that a "hoax" was going on.
If a dummy was placed, it would allow the other paramedic to notice that it's a dummy, and therefore hoax would be busted...
Michael needed to make sure that the plan was going on, so that makes me think that it had to be a corpse...
Post by: mindseye on November 21, 2012, 09:53:23 AM
Oh, and one more thing ...
Does this description fit exactly what we see in the ambo pic???
:icon_e_confused: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_bounce: :icon_e_surprised: :icon_geek: :suspect: :animal0017:
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/ambulancef.jpg)
Nope, looks different, and like a dummy.
With all respect, but you can't just pick a ((almost)death) patient out of an hospice to "act" as a dying MJ.
What about the family of the patient, or the (possible) pain and drama,this person was going through (the end of) his life?
You can't just "use" such a real person for this, that's rude.
And seriously, what would the world think, when this comes out?
My thoughts too... must be a dummy.
But how did Blount "immediately" recognize MJ, with all the paraphernalia? Simple: Blount knew this was the KOP's house, and the master bedroom, and someone was on the bed which was not a child, not female, not a horse, etc; so Blount assumed it was MJ, by the normal process of context, and the normal way that our brains work. After a while, though, while working more closely with the patient, Blount began to realize that it did not appear to be MJ after all (which is what the stalker fan reported, at UCLA, which was long after Blount walked in the room and "immediately" recognized MJ).
This makes sense to me... he assumed it was him, it was like a movie set everyone acting their part - at the time it probably looked convincing.
The were 'in' and they were not only transporting the body but protecting the body, including and most importantly ensuring that no one would see or feel that the body was indeed a dummy.
Again JMO
I agree, I also remember a comment made that they couldn't find a vein because of the amount of time? hmmm... on 'alleged' victim :icon_geek:
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 10:02:37 AM
Having a dummy play as MJ would be highly risky, because of it high chances of recognition.
So, as the hoax had to be done (at any cost), a real hospice patient was present in the room.
Not if the paramedics were in on it. Remember these people had the most important job on the day. Transporting the body. Yes, a paramedic would tell the difference between a body and a dummy. You are right. My bet is that these weren't regular paramedics.... Just like the 911 operator wasn't real operator (jmo)
The were 'in' and they were not only transporting the body but protecting the body, including and most importantly ensuring that no one would see or feel that the body was indeed a dummy.
Again JMO
But the hoax had to go on under any circumstance. Even if some other paramedic appeared opposed to what was planned, it needed to be made sure that the other paramedic wouldn't really notice that a "hoax" was going on.
If a dummy was placed, it would allow the other paramedic to notice that it's a dummy, and therefore hoax would be busted...
Michael needed to make sure that the plan was going on, so that makes me think that it had to be a corpse...
Lol, when its knock off time. You don't leave your shift when ur working on resuscitating Michael Jackson.
(That's regarding the shift change)
And MJ planning the hoax to a T and not arranging a specific paramedic and ambulance crew? Leaving that to chance?
Nah don't buy it, the paramedics and co were playing a role and were all over that dummy making sure the fact it was a dummy was kept secret.
Again JMO. Happy to eat my hat if I'm wrong.
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 10:14:20 AM
With all respect, but you can't just pick a ((almost)death) patient out of an hospice to "act" as a dying MJ.
What about the family of the patient, or the (possible) pain and drama,this person was going through (the end of) his life?
You can't just "use" such a real person for this, that's rude.
And seriously, what would the world think, when this comes out?
"MJ used a hospice patient for his death hoax". Don't you think the people will think that MJ is crazier than they allready thought?
I'm sorry but I can't see how a used corpse can help him to build up a better image for him as a person. ...
Unfortunately, this kind of reasoning (which is not evidence, and would not hold up in a court of law) is what many people are using, as their MAIN reason to dismiss the corpse theory--and prevent them from candidly assessing some very obvious facts. What if this was court, and these reasons were thrown out of court as emotional reasons and not admissible evidence, what would you have left?
Furthermore, there are answers to these objections. First of all, who says that the whole world is going to learn all the steps in how the hoax was accomplished? Unless it is announced on major news, by the FBI or someone that the public would believe, then the public would be left merely to investigate the methods--if they wanted to (and most would not bother to investigate).
Next, if there is a real criminal sting involved, then the FBI would have the final say in at least some phases of the hoax--including what went to UCLA on the stretcher. So it would not be MJ's decision, and nobody could blame MJ even if they learned how it was accomplished.
Third, and I think Souza and/or others found this in one of the previous levels: Death with Dignity answers a lot of questions about timing, and much more.
{http://www.deathwithdignity.org/ (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/)}
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 21, 2012, 10:16:54 AM
... Also, Should a real corpse have been used, the risk of it 'not being MJ' possibly witnessed by paramedics, UCLA staff / coroner / autopsy personnel would have been high considering MJs distinguished looks. ..."
Actually, the risk of someone who didn't look too much like MJ is much less of a risk than a dummy being discovered by someone not in the hoax.
Consider the fact that it has actually been reported, both on TMZ and in court, that the patient looked like a frail hospice patient, and not MJ, etc. But does the public think twice about these reports, or do they just continue believing the official story?
Now what if it came out on TMZ and in court that a dummy had been discovered, do you really think that the public would not think twice about it??
Also, over the years--and especially leading into June 25,2009--many things were done (or at least reported), to create confusion about MJ's appearance--so much so that even some stalker fans apparently could not tell the real from a double. Was perhaps there a reason for this, or just a random koinkidink?
Doubles used ...
Plastic surgery ...
Baldness and wigs ...
Masks ...
Not out in public much ...
And more ...
Well TS you clearly are trying to confuse us here to keep us busy and working on it to try to get to discover it.. or not with the theories of a dummy and/or a corpse being used while heading to UCLA, why do I think that way?:
A) Because you have used the word "WHAT was on the stretcher" where "WHAT" means "IT" and I would never take a corpse as a "THING" but as a dead body (at least in spanish) still a person without breathing, I would always use the word "IT" for a dummy only.
B) Because you are hinting that to use a dummy would have been very risky in case they would have discovered it.
So which theory is the correct one? I don't really know but the use of a dummy would have more sense to me, why? because if they were using a real corpse or an hospice patient would have complicated the scene due to they had someone to take care of on their hands although this person were really dead and I think that this hoax would have to avoid any complication to seem real.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 21, 2012, 10:24:38 AM
The act of trying to confuse someone.
(http://www.upsidetrader.com/wp-content/uploads/baby1.bmp)
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 10:28:39 AM
... Lol, when its knock off time. You don't leave your shift when ur working on resuscitating Michael Jackson.
(That's regarding the shift change)
And MJ planning the hoax to a T and not arranging a specific paramedic and ambulance crew? Leaving that to chance? ...
This is not about leaving a shift, during the middle of a call--nor is it about failing to arrange specific people in advance. Instead, it is about the possibility that someone would show up (at the house, or at UCLA), who was not planned to be there and was not in the hoax. This happens in real life; and it was a realistic possibility on 6-25-09, even if it was not highly probable.
The hoax was planned with 3 layers of protection:
#1 Have everyone be in on the hoax, who is planned to be most directly working with the body.
#2 Have a real patient, just in case someone gets in the mix who was not originally planned to be there.
#3 If all else fails, have the FBI on standby to keep quiet anyone who might find something out that they were not intended to know.
Post by: mindseye on November 21, 2012, 10:30:33 AM
Next, if there is a real criminal sting involved, then the FBI would have the final say in at least some phases of the hoax--including what went to UCLA on the stretcher. So it would not be MJ's decision, and nobody could blame MJ even if they learned how it was accomplished.
Third, and I think Souza and/or others found this in one of the previous levels: Death with Dignity answers a lot of questions about timing, and much more.
{http://www.deathwithdignity.org/ (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/)}
FBI involvement and final say, definitely FBI involvement or the hoax could never be possible imo and does relieve MJ of blame, and I get the death with dignity. But this was a very public display... so wouldn't a dummy also be used? btw wasn't there a meeting or involvement of the TMZ photographer prior to the 25th for the ambulance photo?
So there was a real death, cancer patient? and out of respect... and to make it more convincing for the public there was also a dummy?
Just saw your answer thanks TS!
The hoax was planned with 3 layers of protection:
#1 Have everyone be in on the hoax, who is planned to be most directly working with the body.
#2 Have a real patient, just in case someone gets in the mix who was not originally planned to be there.
#3 If all else fails, have the FBI on standby to keep quiet anyone who might find something out that they were not intended to know.
Post by: TS_comments on November 21, 2012, 10:33:55 AM
... Well TS you clearly are trying to confuse us here to keep us busy and working on it to try to get to discover it.. or not with the theories of a dummy and/or a corpse being used while heading to UCLA, why do I think that way?:
A) Because you have used the word "WHAT was on the stretcher" where "WHAT" means "IT" and I would never take a corpse as a "THING" but as a dead body (at least in spanish) still a person without breathing, I would always use the word "IT" for a dummy only. ...
No intentional confusion. Someone else on this thread interpreted the word "what" to mean that it WAS a corpse; all a matter of interpretation.
Post by: Jos on November 21, 2012, 10:41:41 AM
I can't see MJ will be so cold blooded and heartless.
So, IF there was a real corpse, there must be Feds involved in the hoax. And then indeed no one can blaim MJ.
Ok, fine with me.
... Well TS you clearly are trying to confuse us here to keep us busy and working on it to try to get to discover it.. or not with the theories of a dummy and/or a corpse being used while heading to UCLA, why do I think that way?:
A) Because you have used the word "WHAT was on the stretcher" where "WHAT" means "IT" and I would never take a corpse as a "THING" but as a dead body (at least in spanish) still a person without breathing, I would always use the word "IT" for a dummy only. ...
No intentional confusion. Someone else on this thread interpreted the word "what" to mean that it WAS a corpse; all a matter of interpretation.
I presume that I am that person, sorry.
Post by: bec on November 21, 2012, 11:06:18 AM
IF the 911 call was real THEN the paramedics were also real. Because when you call 911 it begins a process of emergency response which is obligatory by law.
However,
IF the 911 call were staged, it stands to reason that the paramedic team was also staged (scripted). You can only get real paramedics if a real distress call goes out (or if one is prearranged to be stationed at a post).
We will recall that the 911 call did not make it to police scanners. We know this because the scene was devoid of media/photographers besides Ben's team. Also, very few gawkers were at the scene. Yes a handful were present, but not the scene you could expect if the info went out over scanners, which are public record for anyone who has a CB/short wave radio. You figure, they spent ~45 min at the scene. TONS of time for anyone even across the county to show up and "check it out". There are people who make their living off monitoring these scanners and using the info to snap pics and sell them to news sources.
Since the call never made it to police scanners, I think it is a logical conclusion to draw that the 911 call was staged (ie not sent through usual dial-9-1-1 channels).
Additional supporting evidence that the call was staged were some of the anomalies in the convo on the call. The caller never states that the patient isn't conscious, the operator "offers" that info. The operator hangs up prior to emergency team arriving.
If the call was staged, another logical conclusion to draw from this is that the paramedic team was also prearranged. Prearranged paramedic team=everyone is in on it (short of perhaps the fire chief who's responsibility may be to remain with the fire truck during a medical distress call).
I agree it is not logical to conclude that MJ did not prearrange this portion of the hoax as to leave Day One up to chance is EXCEEDINGLY risky. If the immediate players are not all aware what is going on, the hoax could have been found out from the get go and then where would that leave him? 20+ years of planning down the tube?
Additionally supporting the idea that the paramedic team was prearranged, how could it be ensured that a team of paramedics not in on it ahead of time would concede to Murray that the "obviously" dead corpse go to UCLA instead of to the morgue? What if they refused as the idea was preposterous? What if there was bitter arguing? What if the leader of the paramedic team called his superiors? What if he put his foot down and said NO WAY JOSE??
And again, as someone stated earlier, we have the ambulance backing out of the driveway, which is super dooper questionable, as this is just not how it is done under any circumstances. And as no one has brought up, the doors of the ambulance needed to be SHUT before entering UCLA, and we see them wide open as the paramedics wheel the stretcher into the ER. A professional paramedic team would shut these doors this as protocol. Ambulance doors are not left wide open upon completing delivery at the ER. There is a great deal of sensitive, expensive equipment in there and standard operating procedure is that doors get SHUT once the patient is unloaded. There's 4 guys there. All 4 are not needed to push the stretcher. This is one reason there are always more then 2 paramedics attending. One person needs to be loose so they can cover tasks such as this which are necessary and normal.
So if you follow the trail of bread crumbs, I believe we can conclude that the paramedic team is prearranged. Key people in key places. One of those key people must be in a position of authority at LAFD to ensure that the prearranged team is the one who responds. It has to be someone in authority as the call was staged and in order to get a response to a staged call, a superior at LAFD has to approve the team being dispatched. A paramedic team can't just elect to go galavanting around LA in an ambulance "just because" they feel like it.
And again, IF the paramedic team is prearranged, there is no need to "fool" them with a real corpse.
Post by: Andrea on November 21, 2012, 11:43:39 AM
Obviously there is something about Blount - we are to believe he wasn't scheduled for that shift but if he was part of the plan then re-arranging his schedule makes sense.
TS:
Quote
The hoax was planned with 3 layers of protection:
#1 Have everyone be in on the hoax, who is planned to be most directly working with the body.
#2 Have a real patient, just in case someone gets in the mix who was not originally planned to be there.
#3 If all else fails, have the FBI on standby to keep quiet anyone who might find something out that they were not intended to know.
Point #3 - theoretically with the FBI on hand to keep people quiet if need be - that argument works with a dummy too. See a dummy? No you didn't. Ok, understood.
Point #1 would include the paramedics. Also doctors and coroner.
Just a random thought - if a dummy was used and someone at UCLA saw it was a dummy who wasn't supposed to, that person could've been reasoned with that it was a decoy, for MJ's privacy he was brought somewhere else. On that day, with all that confusion, how would an unplanned witness know what's really going on? I realize this might sound silly.
TS, I realize that you may be playing devil's advocate in regards to the corpse theory. If that's the case then you can see some of us are trying hard to debunk it.
Post by: emulik on November 21, 2012, 12:07:34 PM
wow, so many sharp minded people here! I like your interpretations, although, sometimes it is hard to stay on track with so much reading :icon_geek:
My humble personal opinion is that there were both real corpse and dummy ( due need of situation).
I believe that real corpse was used with special agreement of involved dying person.
Post by: InPotencyToYourAct on November 21, 2012, 12:10:41 PM
the word alleged can be considered a hedge word (hedging on the meaning of a statement).
It can be a form of media protection against legal repercussions.
Statement analysis shows hedge words can be used to avoid responsibility and evade the truth.
sources:
grammar.about.com/od/tz/g/verbhedterm.htm
deceptionanalysis.com/hedge_words.html
Post by: Jos on November 21, 2012, 12:17:31 PM
I must agree with your logic once again bec. IF the 911 call wasn't real then a REAL emergency response isn't likely. We know there was an ambulance used to stage the photo - so we can reason that the same one was used for June 25. The photo itself (on the surface) shows the patient was not a hospice-type patient.
Obviously there is something about Blount - we are to believe he wasn't scheduled for that shift but if he was part of the plan then re-arranging his schedule makes sense.
TS:QuoteThe hoax was planned with 3 layers of protection:
#1 Have everyone be in on the hoax, who is planned to be most directly working with the body.
#2 Have a real patient, just in case someone gets in the mix who was not originally planned to be there.
#3 If all else fails, have the FBI on standby to keep quiet anyone who might find something out that they were not intended to know.
Point #3 - theoretically with the FBI on hand to keep people quiet if need be - that argument works with a dummy too. See a dummy? No you didn't. Ok, understood.
Point #1 would include the paramedics. Also doctors and coroner.
Just a random thought - if a dummy was used and someone at UCLA saw it was a dummy who wasn't supposed to, that person could've been reasoned with that it was a decoy, for MJ's privacy he was brought somewhere else. On that day, with all that confusion, how would an unplanned witness know what's really going on? I realize this might sound silly.
TS, I realize that you may be playing devil's advocate in regards to the corpse theory. If that's the case then you can see some of us are trying hard to debunk it.
I would buy it :) Sounds logic to me
Post by: bec on November 21, 2012, 12:21:35 PM
So it can be disregarded as evidence, since I can't prove it, but considering I saw it and remember it, it has gone into the big mixing pot out of which has resulted in my pet theories today.
If this were a real emergency response and a real dead body, it would have been recorded like every other real call on LAFD log.
So again, who is an alleged real dead body supposed to fool? What's the motive?
Once at UCLA, if they REALLY needed a corpse, there's plenty to be had within the walls of the hospital, completely erasing the trouble and risk of getting one INTO Carrolwood in order to transport it out of there.
HOWEVER, what's the chances of finding and procuring a dead body on 6/25/09 that looks enough like MJ to masquerade as his body for personnel not in on the hoax? Even if the facial features don't match (people can be convinced that stage makeup results in MJ's public appearance), what's the chances that someone of the right age, body type/size, gender, and race died close enough to noon on 6/25/09 of some cause that doesn't reveal itself on the surface (stabbing, gunshot, other injury) to be accepted by ER staff operating under the premise that this is a patient who recently died of Propofol intoxication/heart failure?
TS, I think you, yourself laid out those statistics over a year ago. Long odds to be sure.
If we are going to dismiss all of these concerns by saying "well the FBI was in charge and they made it all work" then why even bother with all the 911 call/ambulance/paramedics/UCLA docs in the first place? Why can't the FBI just make it so that MJ "died" and that's that? No one needs to see the show that occurred on 6/25/09. Who's supposed to be fooled by all this if the FBI is in charge??
The Media, the Public, and the FANS, that's who, and a dead body isn't necessary to fool any of them.
So again, we lack motive for the trouble of a real corpse.
Post by: Jos on November 21, 2012, 12:39:42 PM
HOWEVER, what's the chances of finding and procuring a dead body on 6/25/09 that looks enough like MJ to masquerade as his body for personnel not in on the hoax? Even if the facial features don't match (people can be convinced that stage makeup results in MJ's public appearance), what's the chances that someone of the right age, body type/size, gender, and race died close enough to noon on 6/25/09 of some cause that doesn't reveal itself on the surface (stabbing, gunshot, other injury) to be accepted by ER staff operating under the premise that this is a patient who recently died of Propofol intoxication/heart failure?
And don't forget Rigor Mortis stands in within the first 2 to 6 hours after the patient deceased.
Post by: hopi on November 21, 2012, 01:01:00 PM
And again, IF the paramedic team is prearranged, there is no need to "fool" them with a real corpse.
That's right, but as TS said, only if nothing changes unexpected ( shift changing...)
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 21, 2012, 01:27:50 PM
Post by: curls on November 21, 2012, 02:01:17 PM
If we are going to dismiss all of these concerns by saying "well the FBI was in charge and they made it all work" then why even bother with all the 911 call/ambulance/paramedics/UCLA docs in the first place? Why can't the FBI just make it so that MJ "died" and that's that? No one needs to see the show that occurred on 6/25/09. Who's supposed to be fooled by all this if the FBI is in charge??
The Media, the Public, and the FANS, that's who, and a dead body isn't necessary to fool any of them.
So again, we lack motive for the trouble of a real corpse.
I just went for a long walk to give this corpse thing another assessment - and I rejected it once again!
Along the lines of what bec said above, I came to the conclusion that there was no need to go through the whole 911 call, paramedics, ambulance, UCLA palaver in order to achieve a perfectly good death hoax. All the other parts like dodgy doc Murray, drugs, trial etc could have happened with a simple 'Murray found MJ dead and the body was picked up by the coroner' scenario.
So, I'm left asking WHY did MJ decide to 'die' this way, with all the accompanying problems of corpses, dummies or whatever, when it wasn't needed - and I conclude the events of 25th June were done this way for show, spectacle, drama, attention - ILLUSION.
And look how successful this decision was, here we are, hoaxers 3 and a half years on STILL unable to work out just how he pulled it off!
Can anyone come up with a better reason for kicking off the hoax the way he did?
Post by: Sarahli on November 21, 2012, 02:14:41 PM
... continuing on my last post ...
Notice also that many things were done, to confuse the appearance of the patient.
Blount: “he had an IV attached to his leg”, a “nasal cannula … attached to his nose”, “a condom catheter attached to him”; “and all of that was in place, when” Blount “first saw Mr. Jackson”; and Blount “described Mr. Jackson as being very pale and very thin”
{~0:50, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wh0omtmt-E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wh0omtmt-E); see also ~12:00, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ03Oo_ppjg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ03Oo_ppjg)}
“[Senneff:] The patient was dressed with pajama bottoms, a pajama top; the top was open, the patient was wearing a surgical cap, or something similar, covering his hair; and he appeared to be underweight to me.” {~9:15, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44lw6Y_FiQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_44lw6Y_FiQ)}
Edit: also a strap going under the chin, and around behind the ears and head (but don't ask me to find that one, maybe someone else can find it).
“[Senneff:] … his eyes were open, they were dry, and his pupils were dilated.”
{~3:45, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mbf1uQikbQ)}
“Richard Senneff testified when he arrived at MJ's house and saw MJ, he looked like a hospice patient – extremely frail.” {http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/michael-jackson-doctor-conrad-murray-preliminary-hearing-trial-witness-propofol-death-week1/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/michael-jackson-doctor-conrad-murray-preliminary-hearing-trial-witness-propofol-death-week1/)}
Edit: also a strap going under the chin, and around behind the ears and head (but don't ask me to find that one, maybe someone else can find it).
Yes indeed TS it is time consumming to back things up with hard evidence so maybe that I can help you here a tiny bit :icon_lol: in the following video they are talking about this^^: from 3:56 to 4:39 they are describing what a nasal cannula is:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAbck-_idoc&feature=autoplay&list=SP8B911E82F130FD13&playnext=2[/youtube]
Post by: Sarahli on November 21, 2012, 02:33:23 PM
Post by: ellyd on November 21, 2012, 03:11:06 PM
Post by: curls on November 21, 2012, 03:16:53 PM
Is that similar to what you mean @ellyd, by 'numerology is a structuring ladder tool in this'?
Increasingly today I'm thinking ILLUSION!
Post by: ellyd on November 21, 2012, 03:30:27 PM
What would it take to expose a lie of such a caliber without being called a liar yourself?
You need to knit a story from A to Z alike but this time leave traces to find your way back from Z to A to make it understood how it worked. Then send out the scouts to experience it themselves. Words don't teach that dimension.
Nothing different we are doing here but going from Z to A with the help of our friends and pieces of rope and experience it ourselves.
Add.: numbers do work - so IMO some key events HAD to take place on certain days / hours / minutes.
Post by: Adi on November 21, 2012, 04:22:10 PM
But as Andrea mentioned - I guess if the FBI are involved then they could tell him to keep his mouth shut if it was a dummy.
Post by: MJonmind on November 21, 2012, 04:42:01 PM
Quote
Senneff knew that the patient was not Michael JOE Jackson, and he also knew (or learned) that the patient was Michael JOSEPH Jackson...Now we’re getting somewhere!
The hoax was planned with 3 layers of protection:
#1 Have everyone be in on the hoax, who is planned to be most directly working with the body.
#2 Have a real patient, just in case someone gets in the mix who was not originally planned to be there.
#3 If all else fails, have the FBI on standby to keep quiet anyone who might find something out that they were not intended to know.
If all the paramedics were not in on it and Blount did come in on the day unexpectantly and was not aware of the hoax, I doubt that a dummy would fool an experienced paramedic like him, especially since he was the person inserting the endotracheal tube into the patient and the other procedures he had to perform that day.
But as Andrea mentioned - I guess if the FBI are involved then they could tell him to keep his mouth shut if it was a dummy.
It all had to be as real as possible, to avoid unexpected exposure like Blount or public. So hospice patient on life-support, plug pulled minutes before fake 911 call going to real 71 station, so 911 dispatcher at fake call location had to be in on it (TS's long dissertation on that). Since only Blount and Sennef were the main ones working on the body, then perhaps only Sennef and chief who gives orders, would need to be in on it, as well as head doctor and head nurse at UCLA. TS always said, "well placed key people". Sennef was in the ambu pic, which was staged the previous day with the MJ dummy. Perhaps even the autopsy pics were taken "the other d..." as well. There were reports from fans who waited regularly outside the house, that that night things were different, with different and more bodygaurds that usual, and the lights stayed on longer than usual. The security tapes of vehicles coming and going, could have been FBI bringing in the life-support patient even then, but he would still be alive at that point.
Adi, nice finding the other ‘MJ’ funeral, possible replacement body.
Quote
The twin developments — the killing of Heriberto Lazcano Lazcano, one of the most wanted men in Mexico and the United States, followed by the theft of his corpse before authorities had even publicly identified it — left Mexican officials struggling on Tuesday to explain how a major blow against the nation’s criminal organizations could suddenly turn into an illustration of their persistent strength.
Quote
If it is not possible to bury a dead body in the ground, it may be kept in a vault or a coffin, instead.it = what
Post by: Adi on November 21, 2012, 04:52:50 PM
Wasn't Senneff the one who wrote the Paramedics Report with all the inconsistencies - wrong DOB, incorrect spelling of Michael's name etc, and from my trial memory his version of events regarding what was happening in the room when they arrived matched up with Alvarez's testimony (who I think is definitely in on the hoax) ?
Not sure this proves either way, but thought it interesting.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 21, 2012, 05:01:37 PM
If we are going to dismiss all of these concerns by saying "well the FBI was in charge and they made it all work" then why even bother with all the 911 call/ambulance/paramedics/UCLA docs in the first place? Why can't the FBI just make it so that MJ "died" and that's that? No one needs to see the show that occurred on 6/25/09. Who's supposed to be fooled by all this if the FBI is in charge??
The Media, the Public, and the FANS, that's who, and a dead body isn't necessary to fool any of them.
So again, we lack motive for the trouble of a real corpse.
I just went for a long walk to give this corpse thing another assessment - and I rejected it once again!
Along the lines of what bec said above, I came to the conclusion that there was no need to go through the whole 911 call, paramedics, ambulance, UCLA palaver in order to achieve a perfectly good death hoax. All the other parts like dodgy doc Murray, drugs, trial etc could have happened with a simple 'Murray found MJ dead and the body was picked up by the coroner' scenario.
So, I'm left asking WHY did MJ decide to 'die' this way, with all the accompanying problems of corpses, dummies or whatever, when it wasn't needed - and I conclude the events of 25th June were done this way for show, spectacle, drama, attention - ILLUSION.
And look how successful this decision was, here we are, hoaxers 3 and a half years on STILL unable to work out just how he pulled it off!
Can anyone come up with a better reason for kicking off the hoax the way he did?
The clear intention for Michael Jackson to pull the hoax the way he did is just to fool the media to play THEM the same way THEY did to him, he is trying to ridicule media the way THEY did to him, Michael in this case is like a teacher teaching the lesson once and for all, it's like saying to the whole world: don't believe what is written and don't believe what you see, it's well known that in this hoax illusion has played and is playing a major role so every scene of the ambulance / stretcher / paramedics / UCLA / helicopter etc is just an illusion and a major TRICK to show the world that everything can be manipulated to get to be seen the way some people wants us to see it.
I am pretty sure that after this hoax the whole world is gonna respect Michael the way he deserves once and for all thanks to his big effort to expose the devilish behaviours.
Post by: Andrea on November 21, 2012, 06:56:32 PM
Also - was just pondering which paramedics are in or not in (all or just some):
Wasn't Senneff the one who wrote the Paramedics Report with all the inconsistencies - wrong DOB, incorrect spelling of Michael's name etc, and from my trial memory his version of events regarding what was happening in the room when they arrived matched up with Alvarez's testimony (who I think is definitely in on the hoax) ?
Not sure this proves either way, but thought it interesting.
The signature does look like it says Richard Senneff. I would say this is a pretty good sign that he's in on it since he conveniently messed up the identity of his patient, "officially".
(http://thedailyfix.nfb.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jacko_letter1_2103_100626a.jpg)
Post by: paula-c on November 21, 2012, 07:04:18 PM
With all respect, but you can't just pick a ((almost)death) patient out of an hospice to "act" as a dying MJ.
What about the family of the patient, or the (possible) pain and drama,this person was going through (the end of) his life?
You can't just "use" such a real person for this, that's rude.
And seriously, what would the world think, when this comes out?
"MJ used a hospice patient for his death hoax". Don't you think the people will think that MJ is crazier than they allready thought?
I'm sorry but I can't see how a used corpse can help him to build up a better image for him as a person. ...
Unfortunately, this kind of reasoning (which is not evidence, and would not hold up in a court of law) is what many people are using, as their MAIN reason to dismiss the corpse theory--and prevent them from candidly assessing some very obvious facts. What if this was court, and these reasons were thrown out of court as emotional reasons and not admissible evidence, what would you have left?
Furthermore, there are answers to these objections. First of all, who says that the whole world is going to learn all the steps in how the hoax was accomplished? Unless it is announced on major news, by the FBI or someone that the public would believe, then the public would be left merely to investigate the methods--if they wanted to (and most would not bother to investigate).
Next, if there is a real criminal sting involved, then the FBI would have the final say in at least some phases of the hoax--including what went to UCLA on the stretcher. So it would not be MJ's decision, and nobody could blame MJ even if they learned how it was accomplished.
Third, and I think Souza and/or others found this in one of the previous levels: Death with Dignity answers a lot of questions about timing, and much more.
{http://www.deathwithdignity.org/ (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/)}
Quote
The mission of the Death with Dignity National Center is to provide information, education, research and support for the preservation, implementation and promotion of Death with Dignity laws which allow a terminally ill, mentally competent adult the right to request and receive a prescription to hasten death under certain specific safeguards. We promote Death with Dignity laws based on our model legislation, the Oregon Death with Dignity Act, as a stimulus to nationwide improvements in end-of-life care and as an option for dying individuals. We accomplish our mission by working to defend and promote Death with Dignity laws in court and in the court of public opinion through our nonprofit Death with Dignity National Center [501(c)(3)], and by working directly with public policymakers through our affiliated Political Action Fund [501(c)(4)].
http://www.deathwithdignity.org/aboutus
You just want to say that a patient with a terminal illness may choose the day and the hour of his death', but as I am reading this applies to the states of Oregon and Washington and the events of June 25 occurred in California
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 21, 2012, 07:40:28 PM
From this point on, we will ALL look at our lives very differently, we will then realize that this is truly a mission of LOVE first and foremost! Change is what is important, Michael's life long mission, is about bringing Peace, Unity and LOVE back to humanity, because it is TIME...Time for the old "materialistic and Greedy" ways of man, to end, as we usher in the new Beginning...The Hoax is just Michaels way of saying "I LOVE and care about each and every one of you enough to "die" for you, in order to bring about real change, and I will entertain you like no other while we get ready for the next Phase.
TS, I tend to Believe that there are a lot more people involved in this hoax/ARG, then you "lead" people to beLIEve! In fact, I think half of Hollywood and the Music and entertainment industry are now taking part in this!!! I see and connect "dots" everywhere now!! TV , music movies...Michaelisms are everywhere!!! All Michael had to do is get people to sign contracts not to "reveal" the TRUTH!! This is a MASSIVE undertaking, and Michael knows all the right people in the right places, that would just LOVE to help him on a mission of this Scale!!!
Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to have all the answers, and I could be wrong, but if I am wrong, then that would mean that all of Hollywood is EVIL and that they had to have murdered MJ and that means that they are running this hoax...that would mean we are all doomed!...well, I for one don't Believe that for one second...NO WAY JOSE!! :LolLolLolLol: No siree Bob, this is the Creation of a Genius, with a Heart of Gold, and the ULTIMATE GOAL IS FOR LOVE!!!
Michael is going to change the world, with help from friends in high places (and all over places :LolLolLolLol:), but we as individuals still need to do the "Internal" work ourselves!
I could be totally wrong about the 2 Michaels, as I still Believe that it is possible that Michael just played both characters himself...but I do believe that we have seen an awful lot of "Decoy" Michael's over the years...like strategically placed Michaels for "Media" purposes, to "USE" them in the long run!!
All I know for 100% certainty is that the MOST important factor in all of this is Bringing LOVE and Peace back to humanity, even if it is one Soul at a time...It's all for LOVE, and L.O.V.E.
Many "paths", but ONE Destination in the end/beginning! :bearhug:
You know that I LOVE each and every one of you...with all my Heart and Soul, for we are ONE, we were never separate, and soon we will come to remember this...some of us already have!! Anyway Family...Keep the Faith and spread a little LOVE and Kindness to someone in need...that is how we change the world! Blessings!!
Michael...LOVE you Brother...you probably know the rest by now!! Don't shoot me down if I am wrong in my observations...I don't claim to know what you look like as I have never met you face to face, but I do feel I know your Heart, as it is my own, and that is all that truly matters to me in the Big Picture!! I will always treasure the fact that I carry you with me wherever I go...You are a part of me!! Thank you...LOVE you More!!
:bearhug:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 08:57:00 PM
And if the 911 call was staged, and suppose, Blount was not "in it" then Blount would know that there wasn't any call, he would know right then and there that this was all fake.
as Bec said:
I agree it is not logical to conclude that MJ did not prearrange this portion of the hoax as to leave Day One up to chance is EXCEEDINGLY risky. If the immediate players are not all aware what is going on, the hoax could have been found out from the get go and then where would that leave him? 20+ years of planning down the tube?
this leaves us with the only possibility that EVERYTHING was arranged before-hand.
But if these guys, that is senneff, Blount, Goodwin, herron, and mills were all involved wouldn't the other paramedics know that whatever was going on at MJ's house was not true?
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 21, 2012, 09:37:26 PM
if the 911 call is staged, is it possible that they make the call appear on the screen this way? or, this is also staged/pre-arranged.
and, if the paramedics are in the hoax, UCLA, coroner and others are all in the hoax, then who is the target of sting?
One department for sure is the media. But i definitely don't think that sting is 'limited' to the media...
Post by: bec on November 21, 2012, 10:01:36 PM
It all had to be as real as possible, to avoid unexpected exposure like Blount or public. So hospice patient on life-support, plug pulled minutes before fake 911 call going to real 71 station, so 911 dispatcher at fake call location had to be in on it (TS's long dissertation on that). Since only Blount and Sennef were the main ones working on the body, then perhaps only Sennef and chief who gives orders, would need to be in on it, as well as head doctor and head nurse at UCLA. TS always said, "well placed key people". Sennef was in the ambu pic, which was staged the previous day with the MJ dummy. Perhaps even the autopsy pics were taken "the other d..." as well. There were reports from fans who waited regularly outside the house, that that night things were different, with different and more bodygaurds that usual, and the lights stayed on longer than usual. The security tapes of vehicles coming and going, could have been FBI bringing in the life-support patient even then, but he would still be alive at that point.
This is murder. It is against the law to "pull the plug" on a person on life support in the United States unless a doctor and the family agree and the person does not have prearranged alternative wishes on file with their lawyer. Washington and Oregon are the only two states that allow assisted suicide and then there are a thousand legalities involved with lawyers n doctors n etc. And really? To time that with MJ's numerology for his fake death stunt? There's no way on Earth that can be explained as being in the best interest of the patient. There's no chance in a billion that 12:15pm-ish on 6/25/09 is exactly and precisely when this person's quality of life diminished to the precise point when death was preferable to life and "pulling the plug" became in the patient's best interest to do.
Referring to evidence that would stand up to lawyers in court, if this were brought into a trial I would expect it would be argued that MJ put his wishes and his project's best interests before the best interests of a sick and dying man. By insisting on a fairly rigid time schedule for his project requiring death, MJ would either cause undo suffering by forcing the patient to stay alive and potentially suffering when death would be kinder; Or it would be argued that MJ caused undo suffering by ending the life (murder) of a person who's body wasn't quite ready to pass on. Depending on the circumstances, the argument would be difficult to the point of improbability to assert that MJ's numerologically timed hoax project would be found to be more important than, and take precedence over the hospice care and end of life decisions for another human being.
If we go with the FBI explanation, we have to accept that the FBI is doing some massive sting operation and enlisting MJ's help. As part of his help he has to "die" and they have to stage his death with a real body. The FBI authorizes a person to be taken off life support on a prearranged day and pose as dead MJ to fool everyone including emergency personnel. The FBI further authorizes that this is to occur at precisely MJ's directed numerology time table, down to the exact minute, on his orders only? Why would the FBI authorize what is considered murder in the State of California on a time schedule that satisfies MJ's numerology equations for a sting operation?
And again, speaking of RISK, as in, it's too risky for MJ to go to UCLA that day (even though he needed to get out of Carrolwood somehow sooner or later), it's got to be a million times riskier for the "MJ body" to possibly come into personal contact with anyone not in on it from start to finish that day. MJ is clearly not dead but the story needs to be that he is, so they need to go through all the motions of this prearranged public display (Illusion, exactly, curls!), from start to finish exactly as planned with NO obstructions, NO do-overs, and NO one saying no.
What if someone said NO? As in "NO I'm not working on an obviously dead corpse and btw, are we SURE this is Michael Jackson?" What if when pressed this someone got angry and said "forget it, this is crazy, i'll not be a part of it", and walked OUT? And what if they had a big mouth and told everyone what a cluster fuq the whole thing was and how obviously this guy wasn't MJ and how obviously it was a long dead body out of the morgue or something, and blah blah blah...?? Then what?
Then it's over, or at least it super ruined, or you need serious damage control STAT.
Seems to me everyone who's hands on and first person needs to be in on it. He needs total control in this department. The 911 call is almost certainly staged and that means a prearranged paramedic team. If someone got sick or whatever, they'd just leave that person out, not throw some new, unprepared, unknowing person in the mix, that's a recipe for disaster. As it is, they had 3 alternates, lol. They didn't NEED 5 guys. 4 would have worked in the scenario we saw.
If everyone's in on it, they don't need a corpse at all. They just need something to toss around and make it feel real for retelling, and also to fool the casual glance. An MJ dummy is perfect. It also solves the helicopter scene problem of seemingly weightlessness of the "body" and rigid feet. Also explains descriptions such as; can't find a vein, dry eyes that don't dilate, eyes open, fixed stare, no pulse, "someone who has been down (not "dead", "deceased", or "unresponsive", but down) a long time", lifelessness: all describe a dummy very well.
Post by: bec on November 21, 2012, 10:11:45 PM
(http://grabilla.com/02b15-9f6fd695-d199-414e-ad4c-d5c060d5e3a7.png) (http://grabilla.com/02b15-9f6fd695-d199-414e-ad4c-d5c060d5e3a7.html)
if the 911 call is staged, is it possible that they make the call appear on the screen this way? or, this is also staged/pre-arranged.
and, if the paramedics are in the hoax, UCLA, coroner and others are all in the hoax, then who is the target of sting?
One department for sure is the media. But i definitely don't think that sting is 'limited' to the media...
I say "staged" as in, didn't go through a real 911 operator. It was a call to LAFD dispatch for sure. The 911 call is what would hit police scanners, but if a private call was placed to a private number at LAFD dispatch, dispatch would plug all that information into the system and it would hit the call screen just like normal, but it would bypass the public channels (AS WELL AS make it legal. If the call were actually dialed 9-1-1 it would be a crime, since they would be making a false report to a 911 operator).
Post by: wishingstar on November 21, 2012, 10:23:02 PM
Also - was just pondering which paramedics are in or not in (all or just some):
Wasn't Senneff the one who wrote the Paramedics Report with all the inconsistencies - wrong DOB, incorrect spelling of Michael's name etc, and from my trial memory his version of events regarding what was happening in the room when they arrived matched up with Alvarez's testimony (who I think is definitely in on the hoax) ?
Not sure this proves either way, but thought it interesting.
Hey Adi....Yes, there were SO many inconsistencies and inaccurate things on the paramedic report...Hippa laws scream too:
I did post a long time ago.....if it helps, here it is:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,19392.msg335730.html#msg335730
*some of the links are not there any more : ( :over-react-smiley:....like News of the World (shucks, they went out of business...too bad, so sad....NOT) LOL.....
Blessings
Post by: ellyd on November 21, 2012, 11:31:09 PM
Quote
California approves nurse-assisted suicidehttp://www.wnd.com/2008/10/76713/#ixzz1K83jWxpH (http://www.wnd.com/2008/10/76713/#ixzz1K83jWxpH)
Schwarzenegger signs bill authorizing dehydration, starvation of patients
Posted: October 02, 2008
12:30 am Eastern
© 2011 WorldNetDaily
California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger
SACRAMENTO – California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has officially approved an assisted suicide measure allowing nurses to sedate, dehydrate and starve depressed or confused individuals they consider to be "terminally ill."
The bill, sponsored by Assemblywoman Patty Berg, a Democrat, passed the California Assembly Aug. 28, and the state Senate Aug. 20. It was signed by the governor yesterday.
The legislation, called the "Terminal Patients' Right to Know End of Life Options Act," or AB 2747, passed by a 42 to 34 vote. An Aug. 20 Senate vote of 21 to 17 ushered the measure to the governor's desk for signing.
Randy Thomasson, chief of the Campaign for Children and Families, said the legislation is dangerous and should have been vetoed by Gov. Schwarzenegger.
"AB 2747 pushes suicide through the back door at the hands of non-physicians taking advantage of depressed patients," he said in a statement. "AB 2747 cheapens the value of human life by endorsing suicide as an option."
The measure allows physician assistants and nurses to decide whether a person is "terminally ill" and deprive them of basic life-sustaining necessities such as food and water.
"Depressed patients who succumb to this pressure will be drugged unconscious and die from dehydration, usually within five to 10 days," Thomasson said. "Nothing in the bill prohibits this horror."
Thomasson said Berg "deceptively changed" the bill to appear that "voluntarily stopping of eating and drinking" and "palliative sedation" no longer were on a list of "symptom management" options.
(Story continues below)
"But the final bill "is broad enough to easily include these suicide techniques," he said.
According to the CCF, Assemblyman Van Tran of Costa Mesa warned the bill has no protections for patients "who could be mistakenly diagnosed as 'terminally ill' but would have many, many full years of life ahead."
"The bill does not otherwise attempt to expressly define terminal illness that each of these health care professionals would have to diagnose to trigger the offer of counseling end of life option," Tran said. "It is not clear why nurse practitioners and physician assistants could make such a significant diagnosis. It is further not clear from the bill how making such significant diagnoses on a case-by-case basis can be done by such practitioners and assistants based on so-called 'standardized procedures and protocols' not further defined by the bill. The potential effect of AB 2747 is extremely broad and could cause irrevocable harm."
As WND reported, state Sen. Sam Aanestad, R-Grass Valley, urged Schwarzenegger to veto the bill as well.
He said the legislation was sponsored by a group called Compassion and Choices, which formerly was known as the Hemlock Society and has advocated for physician-assisted suicide legislation in the past. A founder of the group has praised Dr. Jack Kevorkian for helping more than 100 people die.
Dozens of individuals and groups representing cancer patients, minority rights groups, members of religious communities and hospitals spoke before the Senate Health Committee in opposition to the idea. Also, numerous hospitals and other organizations opposed the measure, includeing California Disability Alliance, California Family Council, California Nurses for Ethical Standards, Mercy San Juan Medical Center, Sierra Nevada Memorial Hospital and St. Mary's Medical Center in San Francisco.
Read more: California approves nurse-assisted suicide
Positive: get closer to self-determined death keeping dignity in mind.
Negative: this could be a first step towards euthanasia.
Drug the depressed, then starve / dehydrate them to death. Take involuntary detention and involuntary treatment in a neuro-psychiatric clinic first and connect the dots.
Post by: flory24 on November 21, 2012, 11:41:09 PM
But now we all know that the address that appeared on the screen is the hotel where Alvarez was : 9641 Sunset Blvd.Idea that was floated that would have appeared that address to monitor because there was placed a phone tower, but according to www. cellreception.com / towers / towers.php? city = Los% 20angeles & state_abr = that did not exist at the Beverly Hills Hotel, otherwise it would be easily noticed in the pictures. But if Alvarez was on site, as explained following dialog with the 911 operator:
Operator: OK so the doctor's seen what happened?
Caller: (aside) Doctor, did you see what happened, sir?
If he was at the hotel, how could he discuss with doctor? Or how could he know that only the doctor was with Michael and makes CPR on the bed?
Then if Michael and Dr.M. were at Beverly Hills Hotel, who is the patient who was raised from the Carolwood Drive?
And in fact, if Alvarez was at the hotel, where exactly was he? He was in a room? Whose voices were then heard in the background is? Or was it just in the lobby and voices were just normal background noise in a hotel? Maybe that's why he spoke so calmly and avoid to pronounce the name of Michael Jackson because he was in a public place? "
Why just in MJ case everybody (doctor, operator and Appel) has put feet and broke the rules, risking to lose the chance to save lives? Or it was provided in the script? Or some things have escaped director?
And it even work in fog, there is a second version circulating on the net.
Dialogue appeared in the press immediately. Records of emergency calls be made public in the U.S. so easily?
- Why caller stutter when to give details useful later in the investigation? For example. answer to the question: "The doctor saw what happened?".
- Why Daily Mail says that the caller is named Tippy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FnNtcHZgTQ&feature=player_embedded
Who made this second record?Do you hear and what I hear in 1:01: "Just a minute"? Whose is that voice and what the hell to hang for a minute?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuzVZgfExjU&feature=player_embedded
There is also a third recording of the call.If we could separate voices, can we deduct if it's a recording overlap, so a bluff, or even no replies: 0:22 to 0:30 - "It's blank" and "We want to start playing it now." or 0:47: "What do you want guys playing?".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGGdPyCCJq4&feature=player_embedded
Post by: Adi on November 21, 2012, 11:51:10 PM
Reading that info made me recall Nurse Practitioner Cherilyn Lee.
Her testimony is here - I must rewatch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XzmxvAJRok&list=SP3030229D3AB58B29&feature=plcp
@wishy - thanks for the link to your post...very comprehensive and interesting!
Post by: curls on November 22, 2012, 01:10:54 AM
TSQuoteAlso agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.The fact he was put on shift C that day randomly shows the hoax would work even if unforeseen changes happen, as they do in a fast-paced world. So where does that leave us if perhaps the EMT’s were not in on the hoax? They were all just doing their job that day. To prepare for executing this hoax, like the old series Mission Impossible, MJ had to know perfectly the regular daily routine and possible variation of every one of the groups of people involved in the hoax, so that even if there were some slight changes, it wouldn't be drastic enough to derail the main event.
I find this a very interesting observation, MJonmind. It takes me back to TS's advice to change nothing except what was needed to execute the hoax, starting from no-one in it, no hoax, MJ died.
... I find myself toying with the idea of what if the only thing changed was that it wasn't MJ who died?
:th_bravo:
And yes, MJonmind, doing things in real time (Level 7a, remember) opens the possibility, even if small, that a paramedic might show up that was not originally planned to be there; and the same goes for UCLA staff.
This was my main purpose of mentioning Blount from another shift--whether he was actually from another shift, whether he was there unplanned, or whether he was from the same shift and in on the hoax, the point remains the same: plan the hoax around the realistic possibility that someone shows up unexpectedly.
@TS, I meant to question this post yesterday. Although you went on to address MJonmind, it was my post you quoted and apparently applauded. I'm unsure if you were approving of stubborn old curls reassessing her long held ideas - or that she'd hit the nail on the head with her observation that it simply wasn't MJ who died. Care to clarify for me?
Post by: curls on November 22, 2012, 01:44:14 AM
He could have included his important numbers/times etc in a far more straightforward/less 'risky' scenario with Murray finding him already dead and getting his body straight to the coroner. The police would still have investigated the unexpected death and followed up in the same way. We'd still have had an autopsy, manslaughter charge, trial etc etc.
With the apparent need, that TS is pushing, for FBI involvement to cover unforseen circumstances with the 911/paramedic/ambulance/UCLA choice, I have to ask: whose hoax is it anyway - Michael Jackson's or the FBI's?
Post by: Adi on November 22, 2012, 01:49:32 AM
Post by: curls on November 22, 2012, 01:58:22 AM
I know MJ pushes boundaries, never chooses the easy option etc etc .... but we're also lead to believe he wanted as few as possible to be in the know. 'Lead to be believe' might be the critical part of this sentence!!
Post by: emulik on November 22, 2012, 02:41:13 AM
100% agree with you Sweetsunset! :th_bravo: I hope after the Bam all bad things related to Michael will be righted and general public will stop buying tabloids and stop believing news..and finally people will have respect for this wonderful man.
The clear intention for Michael Jackson to pull the hoax the way he did is just to fool the media to play THEM the same way THEY did to him, he is trying to ridicule media the way THEY did to him, Michael in this case is like a teacher teaching the lesson once and for all, it's like saying to the whole world: don't believe what is written and don't believe what you see, it's well known that in this hoax illusion has played and is playing a major role so every scene of the ambulance / stretcher / paramedics / UCLA / helicopter etc is just an illusion and a major TRICK to show the world that everything can be manipulated to get to be seen the way some people wants us to see it.
I am pretty sure that after this hoax the whole world is gonna respect Michael the way he deserves once and for all thanks to his big effort to expose the devilish behaviours.
Post by: MJonmind on November 22, 2012, 03:28:09 AM
Bec
Quote
I say "staged" as in, didn't go through a real 911 operator. It was a call to LAFD dispatch for sure. The 911 call is what would hit police scanners, but if a private call was placed to a private number at LAFD dispatch, dispatch would plug all that information into the system and it would hit the call screen just like normal, but it would bypass the public channels (AS WELL AS make it legal. If the call were actually dialed 9-1-1 it would be a crime, since they would be making a false report to a 911 operator).This was one option (#6) TS gave on his masterpiece 911 call post.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21289.msg369974.html#msg369974
And I don't know where his ending words leave us... I guess it means we won't know until the third part of the magical illusion is complete, "you make the bird come back alive"! BAM!
:Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile
Quote
Also, a magician does not give away all of his secrets...
Mjj4ever777, I agree with much of your post; these theories have been floated around in various bits and pieces, and I have toyed with them as well since the beginning. I have come to the conclusion there is one Michael Jackson, but with other 'identities' for his own creative reasons, and hoax and possible spiritual purposes.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 22, 2012, 03:59:18 AM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on November 22, 2012, 04:05:21 AM
Who said Blount lied to the fan? That could have easily been the truth and he instead, lied on the stand.
Or maybe Blount did not lie to the fan OR on the stand. Maybe it was just as I portrayed it, in my last post.
Although it's true that we should not gullibly believe everything we hear; on the other hand, it is also true that we should not reject everything we hear--merely because we can’t gullibly believe everything. We should seriously consider taking things at face value, unless there is solid evidence otherwise.
wow, how much I missed these days!
TS, you don't know how much I love it when you are here.
OK, quick: again, I think it was a corpse used. Don't really know how, but I think it was. I hope to have time to read more later.
OK, totally agree with taking some things at face value.
Post by: marumjj on November 22, 2012, 05:45:14 AM
IMO, the FBI is in this from the start, MJ could not do it alone, there must be a strong authority for all to keep his mouth shut.
The theory of a doll does not seem feasible, I guess to get to UCLA with MJ doll pretending to be dead.
The existence of a real body is necessary in the scene, provided by the medical examiner, we all know that there are people in the morgue that nobody calls when entering Carolwood? may be the night before, we know that the surveillance tapes of the house disappeared, then there is evidence of income from the body in the house. With the body at the scene the night before have time to prepare everything turned out, propofol dose, vias connected and everything we already know. Having a real body there explains the high temperature in the bedroom, rigor mortis is delayed.
Paramedics "assume" that it's MJ, so does UCLA, in fact identified by his driver's license (lol).
And to give the final touch to the judgment sentencing Murray guilty of involuntary manslaughter of an "alleged victim"
Post by: Billie J on November 22, 2012, 06:02:15 AM
100% agree with you Sweetsunset! :th_bravo: I hope after the Bam all bad things related to Michael will be righted and general public will stop buying tabloids and stop believing news..and finally people will have respect for this wonderful man.
The clear intention for Michael Jackson to pull the hoax the way he did is just to fool the media to play THEM the same way THEY did to him, he is trying to ridicule media the way THEY did to him, Michael in this case is like a teacher teaching the lesson once and for all, it's like saying to the whole world: don't believe what is written and don't believe what you see, it's well known that in this hoax illusion has played and is playing a major role so every scene of the ambulance / stretcher / paramedics / UCLA / helicopter etc is just an illusion and a major TRICK to show the world that everything can be manipulated to get to be seen the way some people wants us to see it.
I am pretty sure that after this hoax the whole world is gonna respect Michael the way he deserves once and for all thanks to his big effort to expose the devilish behaviours.
@Sweetsunset You just read my mind. My dream was that the 2 boys that accused Mj for "you know what" would come forward and tell the media it was all a LIE. I'm still hoping and will always hope that Michael Jackson will be respected as he deserves as a Music genius, caring and wonderful Man.
Just a Thought what if it's was a real alive person that went to the hospital,before the paramedics come to the house they gave that person some medicine that it appear he was not breathing and Dead.(Like they did in the movie Romeo and Julia with Claire Danes character .CRAZY huh.) Hope u all get what I mean
Post by: Adi on November 22, 2012, 06:12:04 AM
Thanks TS, for your presence here.
IMO, the FBI is in this from the start, MJ could not do it alone, there must be a strong authority for all to keep his mouth shut.
The theory of a doll does not seem feasible, I guess to get to UCLA with MJ doll pretending to be dead.
The existence of a real body is necessary in the scene, provided by the medical examiner, we all know that there are people in the morgue that nobody calls when entering Carolwood? may be the night before, we know that the surveillance tapes of the house disappeared, then there is evidence of income from the body in the house. With the body at the scene the night before have time to prepare everything turned out, propofol dose, vias connected and everything we already know. Having a real body there explains the high temperature in the bedroom, rigor mortis is delayed.
Paramedics "assume" that it's MJ, so does UCLA, in fact identified by his driver's license (lol).
And to give the final touch to the judgment sentencing Murray guilty of involuntary manslaughter of an "alleged victim"
marumjj - You raise an interesting perspective there about the surveillance tapes from Carolwood. In fact they were deleted/erased (perhaps "conveniently" ?) and not missing as was 1st reported.
http://www.tmz.com/2011/10/24/people-vs-dr-conrad-murray-alex-supall-testifies/
PEOPLE VS. DR. CONRAD MURRAY
Big Problem
With MJ Surveillance Tape
Lawyers for Dr. Conrad Murray are insinuating ... the LAPD did a sloppy job retrieving evidence from Michael Jackson's surveillance cameras the day the singer died -- failing to make copies of crucial footage before it was erased.
The defense's second witness -- a surveillance specialist for the LAPD named Alex Supall -- just testified, he only handed over a few minutes of surveillance footage to investigators, showing MJ arriving home for the last time at around 12:45AM on June 25th, 2009.
As TMZ first reported, Murray's lawyers have had a big problem with how investigators only recorded a small fraction of surveillance footage from that day -- and demanded to see the entire 24-hour tape.
Specifically, Murray's lawyers want to see who entered MJ's house during that period -- footage that could prove their theory that evidence in the house was tampered with.
Problem is ... the cameras run on a 24-hour loop -- so, Supall testified, if the footage hasn't been transferred ... it's replaced with new footage and cannot be retrieved.
Supall said he only copied those few minutes to establish a timeline of when the singer returned home after his last rehearsal on June 24 -- everything else is gone forever.
Post by: curls on November 22, 2012, 06:43:15 AM
so where do we stand? there must be atleast a consolidated review to what we've been discussing...whether it's right or wrong... :icon_neutral:
Nope! There are almost as many views as there are members! That's actually far healthier than all following someone's lead, don't you think?
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 22, 2012, 08:18:51 AM
so where do we stand? there must be atleast a consolidated review to what we've been discussing...whether it's right or wrong... :icon_neutral:
Nope! There are almost as many views as there are members! That's actually far healthier than all following someone's lead, don't you think?
well, having opinions is really good, but we're only going in circles... :icon_bounce:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 22, 2012, 08:21:27 AM
Thanks TS, for your presence here.
IMO, the FBI is in this from the start, MJ could not do it alone, there must be a strong authority for all to keep his mouth shut.
The theory of a doll does not seem feasible, I guess to get to UCLA with MJ doll pretending to be dead.
The existence of a real body is necessary in the scene, provided by the medical examiner, we all know that there are people in the morgue that nobody calls when entering Carolwood? may be the night before, we know that the surveillance tapes of the house disappeared, then there is evidence of income from the body in the house. With the body at the scene the night before have time to prepare everything turned out, propofol dose, vias connected and everything we already know. Having a real body there explains the high temperature in the bedroom, rigor mortis is delayed.
Paramedics "assume" that it's MJ, so does UCLA, in fact identified by his driver's license (lol).
And to give the final touch to the judgment sentencing Murray guilty of involuntary manslaughter of an "alleged victim"
that was really nice maru, i had forgotten about the high temperatures...
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 22, 2012, 09:06:19 AM
Notice also the difference in the reports of Senneff and Blount, regarding the recognition of the patient.
and I've also noticed that there's a difference in the reports of Senneff and Blount regarding the time when Murray was scooping up the Lidocaine bottles
Quote
Senneff, the other paramedic, testified he saw Murray clearing out vials after MJ was loaded onto the ambulance.http://www.tmz.com/2011/09/30/people-vs-dr-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial-firefighter-paramedic-martin-blount/#ixzz2CxdCNVM5
What's interesting -- Blount says he saw Murray scooping up Lidocaine bottles into a black bag even before the singer was taken out of the room.
Blount Senneff
-DID recognize MJ immediately -DIDN'T recognize MJ immediately
-saw Murray scoop up the bottles BEFORE MJ was out of the room -saw Murray scoop up the bottles AFTER MJ left
- ..? - ..?
Maybe there are more contradicting reports made by them, if we gather them we might draw a conclusion then..JMO
Post by: Jos on November 22, 2012, 09:31:20 AM
IF the FBI is involved, would they let MJ / Front / TS give away clues?
I don't know, but I don't think they would.
Just because if the FBI is involved, I think the FBI want's the scenario to run as silent as they can.
Without any change that the public, or the people they are after, will notice that it's all a set-up.
For example: If a SWAT-team wants to arrest someone, the whole plan is a complete secret for everybody, especially the person that they are after.
So that the arrest is a complete surprise and the suspect cannot react.
In my opinion the FBI would have to work on the same way, so that the suspect can't react.
With all the hoax-clues we are given and Ts & Front on this website, it doesn't sounds like an FBI-programm.
Again I don't know ofcourse :)
Post by: bec on November 22, 2012, 09:55:12 AM
I forgot, the eyes of the patient in the ambulance pic are closed, so the statements about "fixed and dilated" pupils and "blank stare" would not apply if the ambulance pic was staged with a dummy that was also being described at the scene.
I still have a very difficult time accepting that the FBI authorized a person to be killed to satisfy MJ's numerology timeline for a hoax. That's murder. We have seen extraordinary lengths taken to NOT break the law throughout this hoax, it doesn't fit that the whole thing began with the murder of one of the participants.
Post by: Jos on November 22, 2012, 10:00:01 AM
I still have a very difficult time accepting that the FBI authorized a person to be killed to satisfy MJ's numerology timeline for a hoax. That's murder. We have seen extraordinary lengths taken to NOT break the law throughout this hoax, it doesn't fit that the whole thing began with the murder of one of the participants.
indeed
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 22, 2012, 10:20:55 AM
As I took Curls advice and walked a bit today, I was thinking about the FBI-theory.
IF the FBI is involved, would they let MJ / Front / TS give away clues?
I don't know, but I don't think they would.
Just because if the FBI is involved, I think the FBI want's the scenario to run as silent as they can.
Without any change that the public, or the people they are after, will notice that it's all a set-up.
For example: If a SWAT-team wants to arrest someone, the whole plan is a complete secret for everybody, especially the person that they are after.
So that the arrest is a complete surprise and the suspect cannot react.
In my opinion the FBI would have to work on the same way, so that the suspect can't react.
With all the hoax-clues we are given and Ts & Front on this website, it doesn't sounds like an FBI-programm.
Again I don't know ofcourse :)
i think the clues might be permitted to be given if we are a part of the sting...to check who catches the message and who doesn't.
Heating the ambient air temperature around a corpse does not and will not delay rigor mortis. Rigor is triggered by metabolic death, not room temperature. Rigor also begins to set in as fast as 30 minutes from TOD. This is why you cannot close the eyes of a corpse unless you close them immediately following cellular death. Even 5-10 minutes later is too late. They will not close.
I forgot, the eyes of the patient in the ambulance pic are closed, so the statements about "fixed and dilated" pupils and "blank stare" would not apply if the ambulance pic was staged with a dummy that was also being described at the scene.
I still have a very difficult time accepting that the FBI authorized a person to be killed to satisfy MJ's numerology timeline for a hoax. That's murder. We have seen extraordinary lengths taken to NOT break the law throughout this hoax, it doesn't fit that the whole thing began with the murder of one of the participants.
thank u Bec about the info of the temperature... I've been thinking the other way..
If the sting is to bring out the truth and expose the frauds, isn't it possible that FBI itself gives permission to let a corpse take place ?and if the justice system is also a part of the sting, does it really matter to be accurately according to the "law" ?
Post by: paula-c on November 22, 2012, 10:22:20 AM
Heating the ambient air temperature around a corpse does not and will not delay rigor mortis. Rigor is triggered by metabolic death, not room temperature. Rigor also begins to set in as fast as 30 minutes from TOD. This is why you cannot close the eyes of a corpse unless you close them immediately following cellular death. Even 5-10 minutes later is too late. They will not close.
I forgot, the eyes of the patient in the ambulance pic are closed, so the statements about "fixed and dilated" pupils and "blank stare" would not apply if the ambulance pic was staged with a dummy that was also being described at the scene.
I still have a very difficult time accepting that the FBI authorized a person to be killed to satisfy MJ's numerology timeline for a hoax. That's murder. We have seen extraordinary lengths taken to NOT break the law throughout this hoax, it doesn't fit that the whole thing began with the murder of one of the participants.
This discredits the theory of the corpse
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 22, 2012, 10:43:42 AM
Quote
Medic: Info from Jackson doctor didn't add uphttp://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-09-30/michael-jackson-murray-trial/50619006/1
I think that all the contradicting testimonies by different witnesses and by Dr. Murray are all based on truth vs conflicts of interest. Though those are merely assumptions.
Quote
Asked to describe Jackson's condition when she first saw him, Cooper said: "He was clinically dead" with no pulse and monitored "signs of a dying heart."
Nevertheless, she said, a big ER team started all-out attempts to revive Jackson.
I still wonder why the ER team started to revive MJ, even after Dr. Cooper had authorized the paramedics to declare MJ dead and even when she described MJ clinically dead at the hospital. Is this conform protocol? Or is a certain place and time of death declaration also relevant and convenient to particular parties of interest :suspect:
Post by: bec on November 22, 2012, 10:58:04 AM
Also, if the FBI is in charge, why conflicting testimony? Wouldn't the characters be well prepared with scripted testimony? Why a stiff, rigid frame posing as MJ's body in helicopter scene? A real body's feet would flop to the side and remain that way due to rigor as mentioned. If it's a sting operation, and a real body is being used to fool emergency personnel as part of the sting, does that mean it is a sting on paramedics and UCLA ER doctors? Or do they need to be fooled in order to fool someone else, fooled by proxy? So the nurses then, is it a sting on nurses? Maybe a sting on the coroner's assistant(s)? Why else would they need to be fooled? Who's coming in contact with the body that the use of a real corpse is designed to fool thus producing the sting? And why does Michael Jackson have to die to reveal corruption in the nursing/paramedic/coroner/ER doctor industry in the first place? How does an actual, physical MJ corpse out the pharmaceutical and medical supply companies? I think the Real Body Authorized By The FBI is a disconnected theory. Is there anyone who supports the real body theory that wants to connect the dots? I cannot, which is why I reject it.
Post by: bec on November 22, 2012, 11:09:41 AM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 22, 2012, 11:18:30 AM
Post by: bec on November 22, 2012, 11:42:02 AM
Post by: Jos on November 22, 2012, 11:44:52 AM
No, I'm saying FBI and real corpse theories don't gel. There may be FBI involved (providing clearance?) but with or without their involvement I support the no corpse theory. I'm saying in fact, IF the FBI is involved, this is actually evidence against the corpse theory for multiple reasons.
+1
Post by: Jos on November 22, 2012, 01:37:12 PM
Michael Jackson@michaeljackson
“I'm really very self-confident when it comes to my work. When I take on a project, I believe in it 100%t. I really put my soul into it.”
Post by: MJonmind on November 22, 2012, 02:04:25 PM
Post by: iamamjbeliever on November 22, 2012, 02:27:29 PM
but is it a fact that when all levels will be done by the end of 2012 that the hoax will be finished as well? I mean did TS make a statement that when all levels will be completed by the end of 2012 that there will be a bam? Perhaps there will be a sequel with level #9 of resurrection in 2013 ?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20134.msg348767.html
I apologize if I may have given a negative impression of lack of faith or doubt. My questions were merely based on my search for certainty and facts about the BAM, because I wish for it so wholeheartedly, though I realize that at this moment is not possible to have certainty and facts. It is just a matter of having faith in Michael, TS and Front. This faith is a fact and that is all what is needed for the BAM. In the meantime whatever happens, I'll wait and watch with FAITH and LOVE. :bearhug: :bearhug: :bearhug:
TS did say that if Michael doesn't return by January 1 , 2013 then he can be considered a fake informer, but i strongly believe that come back will be before (or at least on) December 21, 2012...
I've read in few websites that the period after December 21 will bring a remarkable positive change in the world and that the world will be filled with love, so I'm actually linking Michael's comeback with it :) I'm thinking of Michael's words in "This is it" before Man In The Mirror about putting "Love back into the world" and "Love is important"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDmTPtjz34
Good! I mark this in my book
Post by: Andrea on November 22, 2012, 02:28:08 PM
Let's say the same group of people who masterminded JFK's death also masterminded 9/11 (and whatever else you can realistically add to the list, which is quite a lot). This sort of thing is nothing new to TIAI.
MJ was supposed to have a meeting near the top of one of the 9/11 buildings that day, La Toya said that in her book, but he slept in.
I don't think it's far-fetched to think the FBI would look into conspiracy theory claims, especially when there is supporting and damning evidence. It's likely the FBI has evidence as to who really killed JFK and who was really behind 9/11. The FBI states that Public Corruption is there #1 criminal priority.
I don't know how you'd go about "catching" that group of people (TPTB, etc) but they would need to be exposed suddenly, loudly, and undeniably (best case scenario - too many people as witnesses). Or privately but unexpectedly. I can't say with certainty there is a sting but if there are agents in the FBI who are wanting the truth to be exposed and MJ has the same goal, working together would be an obvious solution.
Edit: a new member Sunnie actually bumped an old TS thread that talks about 9/11, while I was typing the above. It's a good reminder.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,1927.0/topicseen.html
Post by: Sarahli on November 22, 2012, 02:46:57 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 22, 2012, 03:21:41 PM
Concerning the FBI’s involvement I thought that we agreed that the 333 files released on 12/21/2009 were taken as a convincing clue that they were in on it? At least some key people.
Yes, that and the 333 pages always referred to MJ as either Michael Jackson or Michael Joe Jackson. When the FBI wrote a blurb on his "death", they named him Michael Joseph Jackson. I also played around with numbers and found a lot of "coincidences".
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514
Post by: Sarahli on November 22, 2012, 03:35:05 PM
Concerning the FBI’s involvement I thought that we agreed that the 333 files released on 12/21/2009 were taken as a convincing clue that they were in on it? At least some key people.
Yes, that and the 333 pages always referred to MJ as either Michael Jackson or Michael Joe Jackson. When the FBI wrote a blurb on his "death", they named him Michael Joseph Jackson. I also played around with numbers and found a lot of "coincidences".
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514
Yes indeed, it was a great post with a lot of numbers "coincidences". :icon_e_wink:
Post by: Andrea on November 22, 2012, 03:37:08 PM
I wonder if I'll ever be able to say or type the word "coincidence" without the quotes, or in conversation without air quotes. :icon_lol:
Post by: wishingstar on November 22, 2012, 03:45:02 PM
I wonder if I'll ever be able to say or type the word "coincidence" without the quotes, or in conversation without air quotes. :icon_lol:
:thjajaja121: :thjajaja121: :thjajaja121:
Too funny...thanks for the smile Andrea : )
Blessings!
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 22, 2012, 04:26:35 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/02/24/michael.jackson.tape/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/02/24/michael.jackson.tape/index.html)
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/02/24/michael.jackson.tape/t1larg.jpg)
Paramedic: Alleged Michael Jackson ambulance tape is a hoax
By Alan Duke, CNN
February 24, 2010 8:11 p.m. EST
A recording released by a London tabloid that purports to be a call about Michael Jackson's death has been deemed a fake.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Paramedic says the voice on the recording is not his, said Los Angeles Fire Department
Speakers on recording did not use "standard protocol" used by paramedics
Tabloid posted the recording online, saying it proved Jackson had no pulse
Dr. Conrad Murray charged with involuntary manslaughter in singer's death
RELATED TOPICS
Michael Jackson
Music
Celebrity News
Los Angeles, California (CNN) -- A paramedic who rushed Michael Jackson to a hospital the day he died said a recording purported to be him calling the emergency room is a fake, according to the Los Angeles Fire Department.
A British tabloid posted the recording online, suggesting it was evidence that Jackson had no pulse at the time, contrary to what his personal doctor said.
The audio "has been determined NOT to be the voice of any member of the Los Angeles Fire Department," fire spokesman Brian Humphrey said in a written statement Wednesday.
"The Firefighter/Paramedic who handled communications for that incident has confirmed to LAFD Administration that the voice is not his," Humphrey said.
One initial cause of skepticism about the recording was that the speakers did not use "standard protocol or established practice" followed by professional paramedics when they communicate with hospital staff, Humphrey said.
Dr. Conrad Murray has been charged with involuntary manslaughter in Jackson's June 25 death, which the coroner ruled was caused by a combination of drugs given to him that morning.
The Sun newspaper did not reveal the source of the recording, but characterized it as a "911 tape."
The disputed recording features a male, who says he is a paramedic in an ambulance, speaking to a female, who is supposedly at the emergency room of UCLA Medical Center.
"We have a male, 50. Pop star Michael Jackson. Unresponsive, no pulse. Tried to resuscitate him. Unsuccessful. We are en route," the male voice said.
"OK. We'll have doctors standing by," the female voice replied.
"We've done everything we can here in the ambulance. Hopefully, when we get there -- we should be there in five minutes," the male said. "It doesn't look good."
Humphrey said it is routine for paramedics to use a cell phone or a two-way radio to talk to an emergency room as they rush to a hospital, but they "don't normally speak like this in a medical response."
Specifically, the paramedic would not be likely to use a patient's name in the conversation, even if it is a celebrity, Humphrey said.
It would be routine for the hospital to record the conversations for legal reasons, he said.
UCLA Medical Center spokesman Dale Triber Tate said, "There is no way we could authenticate it even if we had patient/estate authorization, which we do not have."
An authenticated recording of the 911 call for help from Jackson's Holmby Hills, California, home was released by the fire department the day after the pop icon's death. - Who determined which one was correct? I never knew there were 2 different scenario calls.
A Jackson bodyguard, who was in the room as Murray tried to revive him, spoke to the 911 operator:
"He's not breathing, and we're trying to pump him, but he's not breathing," the bodyguard said. "He's not responding to CPR or anything,"
"We're less than a mile away and we'll be there shortly," the operator said.
Hoax recordings have emerged since Jackson's death, including a video produced by a German TV show that purported to show a living Jackson stepping out of a coroner's van.
A spokeswoman for RTL, the leading private broadcaster in Germany, later said it was an experiment to show how easy it is to spread rumors online. So who’s lying and who’s telling the truth. Makes you wonder :icon_e_confused:
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 22, 2012, 04:41:57 PM
I wonder if I'll ever be able to say or type the word "coincidence" without the quotes, or in conversation without air quotes. :icon_lol:
:thjajaja121: :thjajaja121: :thjajaja121:
Too funny...thanks for the smile Andrea : )
Blessings!
I happen the same but with the word "dead" :icon_lol: :thjajaja121:
Post by: marumjj on November 22, 2012, 06:28:56 PM
is supposed to be the smallest number of people known to
Post by: paula-c on November 22, 2012, 07:48:26 PM
I thought of a real body at the scene is that in this way does not involve as many people in the deception, if a doll come to UCLA, by God no one noticed?
is supposed to be the smallest number of people known to
This photo deception to the whole world
(http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/16/09/46/48/80678210.jpg)
And all these men surrounding the stretcher not to allow very little to look at, I suppose that inside of the hospital is equal
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5013/ucla03detalle.jpg)
Something like this gave result
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2nth6wy.jpg)
Post by: bec on November 22, 2012, 10:36:31 PM
I am one who believes that the body in the ambulance was fake. Also @bec, I believe this is the info from the paramedic who says the 911 call was a hoax and not official.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/02/24/michael.jackson.tape/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/02/24/michael.jackson.tape/index.html)
(http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/SHOWBIZ/Music/02/24/michael.jackson.tape/t1larg.jpg)
Paramedic: Alleged Michael Jackson ambulance tape is a hoax
By Alan Duke, CNN
February 24, 2010 8:11 p.m. EST
A recording released by a London tabloid that purports to be a call about Michael Jackson's death has been deemed a fake.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Paramedic says the voice on the recording is not his, said Los Angeles Fire Department
Speakers on recording did not use "standard protocol" used by paramedics
Tabloid posted the recording online, saying it proved Jackson had no pulse
Dr. Conrad Murray charged with involuntary manslaughter in singer's death
RELATED TOPICS
Michael Jackson
Music
Celebrity News
Los Angeles, California (CNN) -- A paramedic who rushed Michael Jackson to a hospital the day he died said a recording purported to be him calling the emergency room is a fake, according to the Los Angeles Fire Department.
A British tabloid posted the recording online, suggesting it was evidence that Jackson had no pulse at the time, contrary to what his personal doctor said.
The audio "has been determined NOT to be the voice of any member of the Los Angeles Fire Department," fire spokesman Brian Humphrey said in a written statement Wednesday.
"The Firefighter/Paramedic who handled communications for that incident has confirmed to LAFD Administration that the voice is not his," Humphrey said.
One initial cause of skepticism about the recording was that the speakers did not use "standard protocol or established practice" followed by professional paramedics when they communicate with hospital staff, Humphrey said.
Dr. Conrad Murray has been charged with involuntary manslaughter in Jackson's June 25 death, which the coroner ruled was caused by a combination of drugs given to him that morning.
The Sun newspaper did not reveal the source of the recording, but characterized it as a "911 tape."
The disputed recording features a male, who says he is a paramedic in an ambulance, speaking to a female, who is supposedly at the emergency room of UCLA Medical Center.
"We have a male, 50. Pop star Michael Jackson. Unresponsive, no pulse. Tried to resuscitate him. Unsuccessful. We are en route," the male voice said.
"OK. We'll have doctors standing by," the female voice replied.
"We've done everything we can here in the ambulance. Hopefully, when we get there -- we should be there in five minutes," the male said. "It doesn't look good."
Humphrey said it is routine for paramedics to use a cell phone or a two-way radio to talk to an emergency room as they rush to a hospital, but they "don't normally speak like this in a medical response."
Specifically, the paramedic would not be likely to use a patient's name in the conversation, even if it is a celebrity, Humphrey said.
It would be routine for the hospital to record the conversations for legal reasons, he said.
UCLA Medical Center spokesman Dale Triber Tate said, "There is no way we could authenticate it even if we had patient/estate authorization, which we do not have."
An authenticated recording of the 911 call for help from Jackson's Holmby Hills, California, home was released by the fire department the day after the pop icon's death. - Who determined which one was correct? I never knew there were 2 different scenario calls.
A Jackson bodyguard, who was in the room as Murray tried to revive him, spoke to the 911 operator:
"He's not breathing, and we're trying to pump him, but he's not breathing," the bodyguard said. "He's not responding to CPR or anything,"
"We're less than a mile away and we'll be there shortly," the operator said.
Hoax recordings have emerged since Jackson's death, including a video produced by a German TV show that purported to show a living Jackson stepping out of a coroner's van.
Yes but they're referring to a different recording, not the now famous 911 call recording but rather a video that popped up on YouTube many months after 6/25/09 (might have been even a year later). The video showed an ambulance interior, vaguely (it was filmed from the front seat through the windshield as someone else was driving) and supposedly captured the call by a paramedic while on the MJ emergency call en route to UCLA. You might remember it, hes, it was never considered seriously (as real) by the hoax community and it was determined to be fake within approx 24hrs. The paramedic's official statement you quoted in your post helped to denounce it once and for all but again, it was a suspected fake from the get-go.
@marumjj
I thought of a real body at the scene is that in this way does not involve as many people in the deception, if a doll come to UCLA, by God no one noticed?
is supposed to be the smallest number of people known to
Well TS says as few as possible, and we long speculated as few as possible, but TS says a lot of things, and new information sometimes comes up, or we look at old information in a new way. I think the more info comes out, and the further we consider the Big Picture, the more the signs are pointing in the direction of a much bigger cast and crew in on the hoax then we ever thought prior.
For example, a dead body that isn't MJ isn't going to fool many people at all; a sticky fact that would necessitate several people in on it, or at least all the first hand individuals; anyone who would come into first hand contact with the corpse. At least anyone who testified that they came into contact with it. The others we are merely assuming were actually there. We assume nurses and physician's assistants were involved but were they? We don't know for certain because we didn't see it nor did we hear them give a statement as to what they witnessed, or what they did or did not do. So we have 4 paramedics, 3 bodyguards, 1 Murray, and 2 ER docs having either testified to handling the body or having been witnessed (stretcher gif) directly participating.
So if all those people have to be in on it anyway, why bring MORE people in on it by procuring a corpse or victim slated to be murdered and all the personnel and individuals involved with that task (and approval and clearance)? The listed 10 people are already in on it, why not just use a life-like dummy that will look exactly like MJ on the stretcher for anyone not listed above who happens to sneak a peak or a glimpse, not potentially traumatizing any of the participants, not potentially inspiring ethical conflicts for any participant, and above all, not having to bring anyone else in on it by involving the complication of FBI authorized premeditated murder as well?
As far as the possibility of someone walking into the room where they are reportedly "working" on MJ, how about they just lock the door? There may have been NO nurses or technitions or assistants directly involved at all. All of them who would normally be on duty and required to jump in may have been told it's a high profile case and there's a "special team", go do xyz somewhere else instead, shoo, and they would likely accept that. These 10 people could chill for the hour n something they were reportedly trying to save MJ's life behind locked doors in that "private wing" of the ER, talk about the next step, prepare the dummy (wrapped in shroud) and begin coordinating the transfer to helicopter team (who doesn't have to know anything, they will accept that they are transporting the "decoy" to draw the media away from the "real" body, and move a dummy without a second thought).
A real body is more complicated and either involves more people in on it or compounds the risk factor exponentially. Either everyone directly in contact with the body has to be in on it or else MJ is trying to fool them. Trying is the key word. To "try" to to attempt. There's a chance of failure when you "try". What happens in this scenario if someone isn't fooled? The hoax is toast, or put severely at risk. Therefore I believe everyone who came into direct contact with the body on 6/25/09 must be in on it, because I don't believe this would be left to chance, and I do believe considered the scope and magnitude of this project, everything would be pre-authorized, prearranged, and pre-approved before Go so that everything would run exactly according to plan like a well-oiled machine.
If everyone who is coming in direct contact with the body is in on it ahead of time and the entire thing is choreographed from start to finish as I suspect, why add the additional complication, not mention the legal and ethical snare trap, of a real dead human being? I cannot theorize a motive for a real corpse in this hoax with the information I have so far.
Post by: mindseye on November 22, 2012, 10:42:29 PM
Something like this gave result
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2nth6wy.jpg)
yeah I'm still thinking a dummy was used. btw Just watched Spike Lee's BAD movie. He showed the making of Leave me alone video, studio scenes, then cut to Jermaine's announcement at the hospital. Made me think of this photo posted here.
There was also mention of a case with a cpr doll 'little annie' and ppl asking why does he have this, learning cpr? whose life is he trying to save? And MJ kept saying Annie are you okay? over and over... something like that. :icon_lol:
Post by: bec on November 22, 2012, 10:51:26 PM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 23, 2012, 01:15:19 AM
Something like this gave result
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2nth6wy.jpg)
yeah I'm still thinking a dummy was used. btw Just watched Spike Lee's BAD movie. He showed the making of Leave me alone video, studio scenes, then cut to Jermaine's announcement at the hospital. Made me think of this photo posted here.
There was also mention of a case with a cpr doll 'little annie' and ppl asking why does he have this, learning cpr? whose life is he trying to save? And MJ kept saying Annie are you okay? over and over... something like that. :icon_lol:
wow! cut to Jermaine's announcement? looks like Bad 25 had some clues...i wasn't able to watch it BTW :(
Post by: pepper on November 23, 2012, 01:20:51 AM
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5013/ucla03detalle.jpg)
Has anyone been able to figure out what it says on the back of "Dr. Murray's" shirt (the guy on the left of the photo) ??
Post by: curls on November 23, 2012, 01:56:37 AM
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 23, 2012, 02:07:01 AM
Did they show the dummy, mindseye?They actually showed two dummies while talking about CPR being done on them.
Post by: curls on November 23, 2012, 02:45:19 AM
Did they show the dummy, mindseye?They actually showed two dummies while talking about CPR being done on them.
Nice one!
In reality though, have we any reason to think Spike Lee is in on the hoax (and therefore sending clues in this docu)? I was thinking this was just a genuine tribute to MJ.
I'd like to see the context in which those dummies/CPR were shown.
(This could lead things off topic for this thread, so mods, please move it to Bad 25 if you think it preferable)
Post by: MJonmind on November 23, 2012, 02:46:04 AM
I missed watching it on TV, but I did find some clips in German. Here's the part of Smooth Criminal where they talk about Annie at 5:30.Did they show the dummy, mindseye?They actually showed two dummies while talking about CPR being done on them.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv_4GROFz8g&feature=related[/youtube]
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/anniedummy.jpg)
Curls, only as it possibly relates to the big question, "Who or what went in the ambulance."
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 23, 2012, 03:39:07 AM
Post by: marumjj on November 23, 2012, 03:53:55 AM
there are more arguments FOR a dummy...than for a corpse...Maybe, it was a dummy after all.
Yes, you're right, I should change the focus now, my thoughts turn to the legal, then the statements in the trial are false, false autopsy, doctors at UCLA too, forensic ...
False judgment too? and if you was real trial but with a cause "false and armed" is a crime of perjury, I do not know, I can define now.
Post by: MJonmind on November 23, 2012, 04:12:53 AM
Quote
Martin Blount (THE FIREFIGHTER / PARAMEDIC).http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21454.msg425645.html#msg425645
Dr. Conrad Murray Prelim: Day 3 Part I
Quote of the declaration:
"Now at UCLA. The crowd was all over the place. Dr. Murray made a request to put a towel over to cover his face. I thought it was a reasonable request.
When They left the house, a man with a camera started running down the street and put the camera right up against the window and was running with the ambulance, filming. Because of that event, it Seemed a reasonable request by Dr. Murray to cover Michael Jackson's face ".
I think this statement by land strip photo of Ben in the ambulance.
Though if the dummy looked like MJ, why cover up-- only if it did NOT look like him, as a real body would not.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 23, 2012, 04:34:23 AM
I thought of a real body at the scene is that in this way does not involve as many people in the deception, if a doll come to UCLA, by God no one noticed?
is supposed to be the smallest number of people known to
And all these men surrounding the stretcher not to allow very little to look at, I suppose that inside of the hospital is equal
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5013/ucla03detalle.jpg)
I support the dummy theory, because the body is still surrounded by the same group of men when it enters the emergency entrance, and it seems that they continue to do so. Isn't it the normal procedure that a medical crew of the UCLA emergency unit is waiting at the entrance to take over the patient/body from the ambu crew? In this picture I don't see this take over... So it seems that the group of people involved remains limited.
Post by: paula-c on November 23, 2012, 08:05:53 AM
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5013/ucla03detalle.jpg)
Has anyone been able to figure out what it says on the back of "Dr. Murray's" shirt (the guy on the left of the photo) ??
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ucla_010.jpg)(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/edhard10.jpg)
Post by: Loveunited on November 23, 2012, 08:10:26 AM
Something like this gave result
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2nth6wy.jpg)
yeah I'm still thinking a dummy was used. btw Just watched Spike Lee's BAD movie. He showed the making of Leave me alone video, studio scenes, then cut to Jermaine's announcement at the hospital. Made me think of this photo posted here.
There was also mention of a case with a cpr doll 'little annie' and ppl asking why does he have this, learning cpr? whose life is he trying to save? And MJ kept saying Annie are you okay? over and over... something like that. :icon_lol:
YES, there were several minutes about Annie being a CARDIAC RESUCCITATION doll......Let's also not forget the clue of the doll so carefully staged on the bed in the room at Carolwood!
Post by: Jos on November 23, 2012, 08:21:29 AM
Nice one! :th_bravo:
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 23, 2012, 09:40:26 AM
Something like this gave result
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2nth6wy.jpg)
yeah I'm still thinking a dummy was used. btw Just watched Spike Lee's BAD movie. He showed the making of Leave me alone video, studio scenes, then cut to Jermaine's announcement at the hospital. Made me think of this photo posted here.
There was also mention of a case with a cpr doll 'little annie' and ppl asking why does he have this, learning cpr? whose life is he trying to save? And MJ kept saying Annie are you okay? over and over... something like that. :icon_lol:
YES, there were several minutes about Annie being a CARDIAC RESUCCITATION doll......Let's also not forget the clue of the doll so carefully staged on the bed in the room at Carolwood!
Which one is the real Michael Jackson?
Post by: paula-c on November 23, 2012, 09:45:57 AM
Something like this gave result
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2nth6wy.jpg)
yeah I'm still thinking a dummy was used. btw Just watched Spike Lee's BAD movie. He showed the making of Leave me alone video, studio scenes, then cut to Jermaine's announcement at the hospital. Made me think of this photo posted here.
There was also mention of a case with a cpr doll 'little annie' and ppl asking why does he have this, learning cpr? whose life is he trying to save? And MJ kept saying Annie are you okay? over and over... something like that. :icon_lol:
YES, there were several minutes about Annie being a CARDIAC RESUCCITATION doll......Let's also not forget the clue of the doll so carefully staged on the bed in the room at Carolwood!
Which one is the real Michael Jackson?
Good observation!!! :icon_lol:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 23, 2012, 09:49:28 AM
Something like this gave result
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2nth6wy.jpg)
yeah I'm still thinking a dummy was used. btw Just watched Spike Lee's BAD movie. He showed the making of Leave me alone video, studio scenes, then cut to Jermaine's announcement at the hospital. Made me think of this photo posted here.
There was also mention of a case with a cpr doll 'little annie' and ppl asking why does he have this, learning cpr? whose life is he trying to save? And MJ kept saying Annie are you okay? over and over... something like that. :icon_lol:
YES, there were several minutes about Annie being a CARDIAC RESUCCITATION doll......Let's also not forget the clue of the doll so carefully staged on the bed in the room at Carolwood!
Which one is the real Michael Jackson?
Good observation!!! :icon_lol:
the one on the right is Michael and left the dummy...
Post by: bec on November 23, 2012, 09:51:58 AM
there are more arguments FOR a dummy...than for a corpse...Maybe, it was a dummy after all.
Yes, you're right, I should change the focus now, my thoughts turn to the legal, then the statements in the trial are false, false autopsy, doctors at UCLA too, forensic ...
False judgment too? and if you was real trial but with a cause "false and armed" is a crime of perjury, I do not know, I can define now.
You bring up a good point, but I'd argue that all of those statements would be false anyway if they were talking about a real body that isn't MJ. That's still perjury because it is NOT Michael Jackson and they are professing that it is. Regarding perjury, again, legitimate concern, but do we have a REAL court or do we have a HOAX court? I have been arguing hoax court, therefore no perjury, but TS brought up a good point. If it's 100% a hoax court, why bother with the word "alleged" when referring to the victim (and incident and date) if it's just a movie, those words are not needed. Their inclusion nullifies the verdict, and ensures legality in what APPEARS to the observer to be real court.
I don't think court is real, but I think it looks real enough, or seems real enough to necessitate the use of the words "alleged" to nullify it, as well as to prevent entrapment (someone believing it is real because it looks so very much like a real deal, ie, not enough obvious clues present to attest to it's hoax status), so they threw "alleged" in there at the end to CYA lol.
Personally, I think we need to change our thinking away from the original 3-way theory (only 3 people needed to pull it off) towards many more people being in on it then originally thought, and see the forest for the trees. MJ needed all his ducks in a row to pull this off, and it would necessitate a great deal of cooperation from entities along the way. I think this is a massive project which many hands/minds/and bodies were needed to coordinate launching and pulling off the Greatest Public Live Illusion of our lifetime, perhaps ever done in history. He didn't leave the success of his hoax up to chance and luck (fooling first responders) I firmly believe.
TS said things would start to fall into place. Perhaps It's just wishful thinking taking over at this 11th hour but I think I'm starting to see that now.
Post by: bec on November 23, 2012, 10:03:45 AM
MarumjjjQuoteMartin Blount (THE FIREFIGHTER / PARAMEDIC).http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21454.msg425645.html#msg425645
Dr. Conrad Murray Prelim: Day 3 Part I
Quote of the declaration:
"Now at UCLA. The crowd was all over the place. Dr. Murray made a request to put a towel over to cover his face. I thought it was a reasonable request.
When They left the house, a man with a camera started running down the street and put the camera right up against the window and was running with the ambulance, filming. Because of that event, it Seemed a reasonable request by Dr. Murray to cover Michael Jackson's face ".
I think this statement by land strip photo of Ben in the ambulance.
Though if the dummy looked like MJ, why cover up-- only if it did NOT look like him, as a real body would not.
But again, you have to ask, is this an accurate statement of events? Is there any way to back it up? Is there any supportive evidence to this claim? Or is all we have to go on with this lead is this one statement from the Pre-lim trial?
Because we have no way of collaborating this, in my mind, it is a rumor, much like the temperature of the bedroom at Carrolwood, MJ looking like an old Asian man, MJ collapsing in front of Prince, paramedics and Murray stopped to put MJ's wig on before leaving the house, etc etc etc. The statement has never been collaborated, substantiated, or backed up, it just sits out there, alone, with no support. Stuff like this I think we shouldn't put much stock into, we can't really, considering the amount of rumors flying in all directions, you have to sift out the BS somehow.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 23, 2012, 10:07:39 AM
there are more arguments FOR a dummy...than for a corpse...Maybe, it was a dummy after all.
Yes, you're right, I should change the focus now, my thoughts turn to the legal, then the statements in the trial are false, false autopsy, doctors at UCLA too, forensic ...
False judgment too? and if you was real trial but with a cause "false and armed" is a crime of perjury, I do not know, I can define now.
You bring up a good point, but I'd argue that all of those statements would be false anyway if they were talking about a real body that isn't MJ. That's still perjury because it is NOT Michael Jackson and they are professing that it is. Regarding perjury, again, legitimate concern, but do we have a REAL court or do we have a HOAX court? I have been arguing hoax court, therefore no perjury, but TS brought up a good point. If it's 100% a hoax court, why bother with the word "alleged" when referring to the victim (and incident and date) if it's just a movie, those words are not needed. Their inclusion nullifies the verdict, and ensures legality in what APPEARS to the observer to be real court.
I don't think court is real, but I think it looks real enough, or seems real enough to necessitate the use of the words "alleged" to nullify it, as well as to prevent entrapment (someone believing it is real because it looks so very much like a real deal, ie, not enough obvious clues present to attest to it's hoax status), so they threw "alleged" in there at the end to CYA lol.
Personally, I think we need to change our thinking away from the original 3-way theory (only 3 people needed to pull it off) towards many more people being in on it then originally thought, and see the forest for the trees. MJ needed all his ducks in a row to pull this off, and it would necessitate a great deal of cooperation from entities along the way. I think this is a massive project which many hands/minds/and bodies were needed to coordinate launching and pulling off the Greatest Public Live Illusion of our lifetime, perhaps ever done in history. He didn't leave the success of his hoax up to chance and luck (fooling first responders) I firmly believe.
TS said things would start to fall into place. Perhaps It's just wishful thinking taking over at this 11th hour but I think I'm starting to see that now.
This hoax is definitely impossible with only a few working/involved. Though TS said to start off by taking in people 'as few as possible', this hoax is simply vast! it's not limited to any particular person, or an incident to involve 'as few as possible'. And if the hoax needs to be successful, there has to a massive team behind Michael and several people co-operating.
If several people are co-operating with Michael in the hoax, I can't refuse the FBI theory. FBI needs to be there at all times to put things on track and maybe FBI is the one to convince (or even force) individuals in co-operating with the hoax. Otherwise, it is quite impossible. And without FBI, there exists the risk of 'leaking' secrets or information about the hoax to third parties.
The use of alleged was needed. If the FBI is involved, it is mandatory to include "alleged" in the verdict. The court is half hoax and half sting. It is definitely not true, but not that fake. I believe it's a 'sting in the hoax'. If sting operation is really present, it would be necessary to include 'alleged' to again bring the hoax on the path of legality.
But this again brings me back to the question, is there any chance that the individuals [ on whom the sting is being operated] check this forum to know what really is going on in Michael's hoax and know that there's a sting on them?
Post by: paula-c on November 23, 2012, 10:17:52 AM
Quote
But this again brings me back to the question, is there any chance that the individuals [ on whom the sting is being operated] check this forum to know what really is going on in Michael's hoax and know that there's a sting on them?
good question, Yes, just go to the internet can be read everything says here.
Post by: bec on November 23, 2012, 10:39:57 AM
... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
:th_bravo:
This answer is close enough, for our purposes. In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).
I think we are looking more at a "lessons learned"-sting as opposed to a, charges-brought-in-direct-connection-with-evidence-collected-in-the-process-of--sting. A metaphorical sting, if you will consider, a figurative "sting", and operation that masquerades as a "sting" for purposes of teaching a lesson as opposed to bringing criminal charges.
For example, charges are NOT going to be brought against the public for believing the BS. Simply the goal is for lessons to be learned, public service message, and all.
Add to that this post by TS:
Broad perspective is close.
Makes the sting an artistic one ...
:icon_exclaim: :icon_exclaim: :icon_exclaim:Quote... and not a criminal one.
:computer-losy-smiley: :computer-losy-smiley: :computer-losy-smiley:
The sting IS artistic...
...yet the actions of these entities ARE criminal; in what they do to the people, to society, make no mistake, they ARE criminals... but perhaps even criminals can turn over a new leaf upon lessons learned. Perhaps even criminals can change their ways if given an opportunity to do so, and precipitated with a shocking situation that they never saw coming. Lessons will be learned. Perhaps that is the goal of this "artistic" sting operation, rather then arrests/criminal charges.
If so, there is no harm in these people/entities reading this information. They can either learn their lesson the easy way (by piecing together the information as we are) or the hard way (by disregarding everything we write as lunacy and then witnessing the Bam in live time and undergoing Total Recall at that moment). No matter, either way the goal will be achieved.
Much as the general public and the fans have the same opportunities we do; to pick up on the clues, hints and whispers, and become hoaxers as we have; the OTHER subjects of the artistic sting have an opportunity to follow our dialogue, to see the light, and to make that change.
Post by: bec on November 23, 2012, 10:50:25 AM
Quote
If several people are co-operating with Michael in the hoax, I can't refuse the FBI theory. FBI needs to be there at all times to put things on track and maybe FBI is the one to convince (or even force) individuals in co-operating with the hoax. Otherwise, it is quite impossible. And without FBI, there exists the risk of 'leaking' secrets or information about the hoax to third parties.
I agree. Getting clearance and assistance from the FBI would explain several things. If MJ has the FBI on board, that explains HOW it has been kept so perfectly secret, as well rectifying the 333 pages of files being released (however-- I still believe confidentiality contracts exist and are standard for any entertainment production currently pending-- but FBI backing would add that certain level of serious legality to everyone's adherence to their contract; an insurance policy/second layer of protection, if you will). But MJ procuring FBI approval and clearance does not in itself equate their direct involvement in the hoax.
Post by: pepper on November 23, 2012, 12:05:07 PM
(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/ucla_010.jpg)(http://i49.servimg.com/u/f49/16/09/46/48/edhard10.jpg)
Thanks, Paula-c!
I never could figure out the writing on that shirt!
For some reason, I always imagined Dr. Murray would be in a suit, like the security guys. Similar to the "Dr. Murray" in this re-enactment from VH1 Crime Scenes -
http://www.vh1.com/video/misc/487256/michael-jackson-what-really-happened.jhtml#id=1632635
But I guess this was the "reality" --
"Dr. Murray pacing in UCLA Waiting Room"
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/29/article-2042887-0E24B60000000578-780_634x383.jpg
"Dr. Murray leaving UCLA"
http://www.contactmusic.com/pics/le/conrad_murray_trial_2_071011/ucla_5735277.jpg
Post by: ellyd on November 23, 2012, 01:02:40 PM
I don't know if everybody is familiar with reading such a map - one starts on top and reads down and round clock-wise.
It is a draft only.
I think that the illusion part (and part of the sting) was the exchange of 4 alternative bodies during all those transports of which 1 was not present (MJ not dead but made believe to be dead and be the "what" that was transported) and the coffin (red transports) was empty. There was a dummy coming to UCLA and a corpse leaving to the Coroner. This is a speculation of my part due to what I read so far.
I think from boiling this down to the key elements, it is clear that if "MJ body" would have been "MJ real dead corpse", each of the elements / persons marked in blue wouldn't have been necessary to be "in" - yet we know from whispers that they were "in". The hoax got existence only due to the fact that MJ's body was not the "what" that was transported to UCLA.
The genius part in this case is that in each and every important part that needed to be covered, there is a blue spot thus a person that directs on behalf of / with the directives of MJ.
All those persons who remain white may be targets of the sting / artistic edutainment.
All elements with a frame may potentially play a role in the case, yet I was unsure if that was true.
Open for all your suggestions.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjbodyzvz.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjbodyzqz.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjsuppcgc.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjsupport2.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjexteviv.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjexteziz.jpg)
Add - I gave it a try - hopefully Souza won't kill me for the size:
This is the complete map - read it clock-wise.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjdeadall.jpg)
Post by: bec on November 23, 2012, 01:08:06 PM
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 23, 2012, 01:12:09 PM
Did they show the dummy, mindseye?They actually showed two dummies while talking about CPR being done on them.
I'm leaning toward a dummy being used at certain points. I haven't been saying too much but I've been watchin ! Good observations and great chart ellyd. It shows how mind blowing and complicated this is.
Post by: Sarahli on November 23, 2012, 01:19:22 PM
That’s why I still think hospice patient (and dummy for the pictures). With a real body you have less people in the know which means no risk of information leakage at all which cannot be 100% fulfilled just with contract signing or FBI control alone. If people believe it’s all true that’s the best scenario, you don’t have people to monitor all along in order to be sure they don’t speak.
Also it maintains the needed realism for events recollection which leaves less room for errors at a later date for a crucial event broadcasted live on TV i.e. the testimonies in court. Also as stated by TS someone could have showed up in an unexpected manner, this is a risk to be taken into account, so again only a real body could cover this possibility. The ambulance did the travel from Carolwood to UCLA and something could have happened along the way, again a real body is safer than a dummy…
I really think that the reports that were in the news about Michael’s health and looks (had 6 months to live, lost a lot of weight, surgery, wigs, etc.) served an express purpose which is to confuse people on Michael’s real appearance. Even some fans didn’t recognize Michael. So it would be easy to fool people with someone looking a tiny bit like him. It paved the way for that.
Only a few key people would be needed to make sure things go in the required direction.
Post by: wishingstar on November 23, 2012, 01:23:19 PM
great thoughts, thank you!
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,22506.msg398937.html#msg398937
Blessings Always
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 23, 2012, 01:28:17 PM
In regards to the subject of a [legal, organized] sting operation [with the intent of procuring charges brought against someone in a court of law directly as a result of], I don't think so. TS's statement backs up this theory I have been leaning towards for some time:... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
:th_bravo:
This answer is close enough, for our purposes. In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).
I think we are looking more at a "lessons learned"-sting as opposed to a, charges-brought-in-direct-connection-with-evidence-collected-in-the-process-of--sting. A metaphorical sting, if you will consider, a figurative "sting", and operation that masquerades as a "sting" for purposes of teaching a lesson as opposed to bringing criminal charges.
For example, charges are NOT going to be brought against the public for believing the BS. Simply the goal is for lessons to be learned, public service message, and all.
The sting IS artistic...
...yet the actions of these entities ARE criminal; in what they do to the people, to society, make no mistake, they ARE criminals... but perhaps even criminals can turn over a new leaf upon lessons learned. Perhaps even criminals can change their ways if given an opportunity to do so, and precipitated with a shocking situation that they never saw coming. Lessons will be learned. Perhaps that is the goal of this "artistic" sting operation, rather then arrests/criminal charges.
If so, there is no harm in these people/entities reading this information. They can either learn their lesson the easy way (by piecing together the information as we are) or the hard way (by disregarding everything we write as lunacy and then witnessing the Bam in live time and undergoing Total Recall at that moment). No matter, either way the goal will be achieved.
Much as the general public and the fans have the same opportunities we do; to pick up on the clues, hints and whispers, and become hoaxers as we have; the OTHER subjects of the artistic sting have an opportunity to follow our dialogue, to see the light, and to make that change.
As long as the general public believes the media, is blinded by it and is completely ignorant,the criminals are free to commit their crimes. But if the public is completely aware of situations, those criminals are forced to be just. This hoax, if it involves sting, is for sure to make the public aware. That awareness might lead to a better world as the established institutions will, at any cost, have to be good in their conduct and dealings. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they have learned their lesson.
Criminals must be given an opportunity to change. But these criminals are not petty thieves who started stealing out of poverty, hunger or lack of education and literacy. These criminals are 'the people in power'. They, in the conscious minds have resolved mislead the public, benefit out of them, and carry out any agenda through the means of media, entertainment and others. So a sting is necessary to make the public aware. And I'm also sure that it targets all departments that, at this present moment, rule and influence the world. But I'm not sure how this is all going to unfold. Many people are going to be revealed who are deliberately guilty of their crimes. I don't know what's going to happen to them...
But there definitely will be a revolt by the public.
----------------------
@ellyd ...u did a great job on this !!!
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 23, 2012, 01:41:09 PM
If he "really put his soul into it", that would be if MJ himself actually died, and was brought back to life somehow later at UCLA, but we were not told about that. Miracle resurrection...
I have similar types of thoughts MJonMind ! It also led me to think about things like resurrection and reincarnation. I think there is a spiritual side to this that we have to put together with all the facts and events. Both of these things have been going on at the same time. That's just what it seems like or feels like to me.
Post by: TS_comments on November 23, 2012, 01:47:22 PM
... P.S. Wishing TS and everyone a very Happy Thanksgiving :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Thank you! :icon_razz:
And I hope that everyone had a very nice Thanksgiving, with family and/or friends.
Post by: mindseye on November 23, 2012, 01:58:50 PM
In reality though, have we any reason to think Spike Lee is in on the hoax (and therefore sending clues in this docu)? I was thinking this was just a genuine tribute to MJ.
I'd like to see the context in which those dummies/CPR were shown.
Again about the BAD25 film, imo it was as if it were a reintroduction to MJ the person versus the tabloid media BS. Reminding the public what a genius the man is, showing different sides of Michael. There were a few things I thought might be hoaxy. OR maybe it was to get fans and ppl thinking about it again or questioning things?
The two things mentioned before the cpr dummy was:
- The movie Third Man was the inspiration for the look of smooth criminal.
- The photo of MJ/mirrors is shown while his voice trainer talks about different tones of his voice, received a phone call from MJ where he spoke in low tone, which said he preferred not to use.
Followed by the cpr image...
Leave me alone, saying it was ahead of its time, collage of images meticulously cut and arranged, about tabloid media… he says ppl don’t know me and believe the media.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/335.jpg)
@ellyd That's an awesome map you have! Taking a look at it now.
The sting IS artistic...
...yet the actions of these entities ARE criminal; in what they do to the people, to society, make no mistake, they ARE criminals... but perhaps even criminals can turn over a new leaf upon lessons learned. Perhaps even criminals can change their ways if given an opportunity to do so, and precipitated with a shocking situation that they never saw coming. Lessons will be learned. Perhaps that is the goal of this "artistic" sting operation, rather then arrests/criminal charges.
If so, there is no harm in these people/entities reading this information. They can either learn their lesson the easy way (by piecing together the information as we are) or the hard way (by disregarding everything we write as lunacy and then witnessing the Bam in live time and undergoing Total Recall at that moment). No matter, either way the goal will be achieved.
Much as the general public and the fans have the same opportunities we do; to pick up on the clues, hints and whispers, and become hoaxers as we have; the OTHER subjects of the artistic sting have an opportunity to follow our dialogue, to see the light, and to make that change.
I agree! ... but I also think there is more to the story, perhaps someone planned to harm him and he was a step ahead. Double sting. Maybe TS can say more about it? :icon_geek:
thanks TS, same to you :icon_e_biggrin:
Post by: TS_comments on November 23, 2012, 02:03:05 PM
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
This means that DWD is not murder. There are some who call it suicide, and there are some who argue against it being suicide; but there is no basis to argue that it is murder, or anything similar to murder. It is a matter of historical fact that the majority of voters in Oregon (OR) and Washington (WA) do not even think that it’s suicide, much less murder. And for those who do think it is suicide: “Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon or Washington law.” {http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions); see http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide); http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide); http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf (http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf)}
So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program: it would be someone who had already voluntarily enlisted in the program, who did not think that it was suicide, and who would be dying anyway within a limited time window—the only question would be where, and exactly when. No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours—especially if it was someone who had no close relatives or friends, to be with them at the close of their life. If we wanted to use emotional arguments: we could easily claim that it would be very cruel and coldhearted, to deny someone this privilege and opportunity.
Nevertheless, good investigators should leave feelings out of the formula, and stick with facts as far as possible. And it is a simple fact that DWD is not illegal. In fact, both OR and WA have laws against calling DWD suicide, or homicide, etc. “Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law.” {http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx)} “Actions taken in accordance with this chapter do not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, or homicide, under the law. State reports shall not refer to practice under this chapter as ‘suicide’ or ‘assisted suicide.’” {https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf (https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf)}
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf); http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf (http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf)}.
Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California. Since the DWD program is entirely voluntary, and the patient is free to back out at any time for any reason: having a second patient readily available would still allow everything to go as planned, even if one of the two changed his mind. And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
On the other hand, any unexpected discovery of a dummy at Carolwood or UCLA would’ve most likely raised huge suspicions, at the very least. To claim that a dummy could be explained away, by saying it was merely a distraction, can only be sustained by attempting to support a preconceived idea against common sense. Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn’t the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
And now for yet another amazing hoax koinkidink: “The Washington Death with Dignity Act, Initiative 1000, codified as RCW 70.245, passed on November 4, 2008 and went into effect on March 5, 2009.” {http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx (http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx)} The OR DWD law had already been around for about ten years; so even if the law in WA had not passed, OR patients could’ve been available. Once the WA law passed in November, however, it was only a matter of waiting the 120 day period for it to go into effect. It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Finally, WA is the state which not only went into effect on 3-5-09, but is also the state that had the two DWD patients which died in an “unknown” location in 2009; and yet no other “unknown” death locations before or since with WA patients, and zero “unknown” death locations with OR patients from 1998 to 2010 (3 in 2011). How many koinkidinks must line up, before we remember that koinkidink is the same excuse which people use to claim that there is no hoax at all?
Post by: marumjj on November 23, 2012, 02:13:12 PM
I thought of a real body at the scene is that in this way does not involve as many people in the deception, if a doll come to UCLA, by God no one noticed?
is supposed to be the smallest number of people known to
And all these men surrounding the stretcher not to allow very little to look at, I suppose that inside of the hospital is equal
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5013/ucla03detalle.jpg)
I support the dummy theory, because the body is still surrounded by the same group of men when it enters the emergency entrance, and it seems that they continue to do so. Isn't it the normal procedure that a medical crew of the UCLA emergency unit is waiting at the entrance to take over the patient/body from the ambu crew? In this picture I don't see this take over... So it seems that the group of people involved remains limited.
But also something not right here, this photo, there is also a video, which you can see the person that is on the table, which rises and looks part of the side of his face, specifically the ear and the hair held in a queue. Then it's a doll or what?
Post by: Sarahli on November 23, 2012, 02:26:02 PM
Over the years, there has been and still is a great deal of excellent investigation in this forum—not only in these seven levels, but in all other areas as well. With only one week to go for Level 7, though, it’s time for me to bring out the Thanksgiving leftovers on a silver platter. :LolLolLolLol:
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
This means that DWD is not murder. There are some who call it suicide, and there are some who argue against it being suicide; but there is no basis to argue that it is murder, or anything similar to murder. It is a matter of historical fact that the majority of voters in Oregon (OR) and Washington (WA) do not even think that it’s suicide, much less murder. And for those who do think it is suicide: “Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon or Washington law.” {http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions); see http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide); http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide); http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf (http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf)}
So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program: it would be someone who had already voluntarily enlisted in the program, who did not think that it was suicide, and who would be dying anyway within a limited time window—the only question would be where, and exactly when. No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours—especially if it was someone who had no close relatives or friends, to be with them at the close of their life. If we wanted to use emotional arguments: we could easily claim that it would be very cruel and coldhearted, to deny someone this privilege and opportunity.
Nevertheless, good investigators should leave feelings out of the formula, and stick with facts as far as possible. And it is a simple fact that DWD is not illegal. In fact, both OR and WA have laws against calling DWD suicide, or homicide, etc. “Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law.” {http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx)} “Actions taken in accordance with this chapter do not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, or homicide, under the law. State reports shall not refer to practice under this chapter as ‘suicide’ or ‘assisted suicide.’” {https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf (https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf)}
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf); http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf (http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf)}.
Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California. Since the DWD program is entirely voluntary, and the patient is free to back out at any time for any reason: having a second patient readily available would still allow everything to go as planned, even if one of the two changed his mind. And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
On the other hand, any unexpected discovery of a dummy at Carolwood or UCLA would’ve most likely raised huge suspicions, at the very least. To claim that a dummy could be explained away, by saying it was merely a distraction, can only be sustained by attempting to support a preconceived idea against common sense. Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn’t the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
And now for yet another amazing hoax koinkidink: “The Washington Death with Dignity Act, Initiative 1000, codified as RCW 70.245, passed on November 4, 2008 and went into effect on March 5, 2009.” {http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx (http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx)} The OR DWD law had already been around for about ten years; so even if the law in WA had not passed, OR patients could’ve been available. Once the WA law passed in November, however, it was only a matter of waiting the 120 day period for it to go into effect. It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Finally, WA is the state which not only went into effect on 3-5-09, but is also the state that had the two DWD patients which died in an “unknown” location in 2009; and yet no other “unknown” death locations before or since with WA patients, and zero “unknown” death locations with OR patients from 1998 to 2010 (3 in 2011). How many koinkidinks must line up, before we remember that koinkidink is the same excuse which people use to claim that there is no hoax at all?
:th_bravo:
Just a funny koinkidank La Toya just tweeted this a few minutes ago. :icon_lol:
La Toya Jackson @latoyajackson
What is everyone doing with the left overs?
Post by: MJonmind on November 23, 2012, 02:31:43 PM
In regards to the subject of a [legal, organized] sting operation [with the intent of procuring charges brought against someone in a court of law directly as a result of], I don't think so. TS's statement backs up this theory I have been leaning towards for some time:... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
:th_bravo:
This answer is close enough, for our purposes. In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).
I think we are looking more at a "lessons learned"-sting as opposed to a, charges-brought-in-direct-connection-with-evidence-collected-in-the-process-of--sting. A metaphorical sting, if you will consider, a figurative "sting", and operation that masquerades as a "sting" for purposes of teaching a lesson as opposed to bringing criminal charges.
For example, charges are NOT going to be brought against the public for believing the BS. Simply the goal is for lessons to be learned, public service message, and all.
Add to that this post by TS:
Broad perspective is close.
Makes the sting an artistic one ...
:icon_exclaim: :icon_exclaim: :icon_exclaim:Quote... and not a criminal one.
:computer-losy-smiley: :computer-losy-smiley: :computer-losy-smiley:
The sting IS artistic...
...yet the actions of these entities ARE criminal; in what they do to the people, to society, make no mistake, they ARE criminals... but perhaps even criminals can turn over a new leaf upon lessons learned. Perhaps even criminals can change their ways if given an opportunity to do so, and precipitated with a shocking situation that they never saw coming. Lessons will be learned. Perhaps that is the goal of this "artistic" sting operation, rather then arrests/criminal charges.
If so, there is no harm in these people/entities reading this information. They can either learn their lesson the easy way (by piecing together the information as we are) or the hard way (by disregarding everything we write as lunacy and then witnessing the Bam in live time and undergoing Total Recall at that moment). No matter, either way the goal will be achieved.
Much as the general public and the fans have the same opportunities we do; to pick up on the clues, hints and whispers, and become hoaxers as we have; the OTHER subjects of the artistic sting have an opportunity to follow our dialogue, to see the light, and to make that change.
Bec, this was profound!
:th_bravo:
Yes, MJ is creating a catalyst for the world to change, not through force but by becoming a Way, and a grassroots movement to swell and cover the earth. “The whole world has to answer right now, as I tell you once again—I’m bad. (in an awesomely good way)”. This is simply breathtaking; remember MJ’s statements about Hitler, and how he could have changed him (not damned him)? Like Alicia Keys (I think) said in the Bad 25 docu, "MJ changes the molecules in the room" (in the world).
I also agree about the many rumors that either MJ included or they sprung up on their own. No work would have to be invested in these details but words on the screen, yet they were highly effective in creating confusion and mystique around the story.
Thriller4ever
Quote
This hoax is definitely impossible with only a few working/involved. Though TS said to start off by taking in people 'as few as possible', this hoax is simply vast! it's not limited to any particular person, or an incident to involve 'as few as possible'. And if the hoax needs to be successful, there has to a massive team behind Michael and several people co-operating.That’s always what I’ve thought from day one (massively huge involving many), but TS has been the SOLE instigator for me/us trying to severely limit insiders. And what was his purpose, leading us down false paths, and this is not the only aspect—what about MJ leaving on a plane, FBI involvement, and more. Thus we end up going round in circles. Perhaps even in this he is teaching lessons about discerning truth from falsehood, such an extremely trick/layered thing. And TS, you know I love you dearly and thank you for all you've done here!
Post by: marumjj on November 23, 2012, 02:34:42 PM
Over the years, there has been and still is a great deal of excellent investigation in this forum—not only in these seven levels, but in all other areas as well. With only one week to go for Level 7, though, it’s time for me to bring out the Thanksgiving leftovers on a silver platter. :LolLolLolLol:
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
This means that DWD is not murder. There are some who call it suicide, and there are some who argue against it being suicide; but there is no basis to argue that it is murder, or anything similar to murder. It is a matter of historical fact that the majority of voters in Oregon (OR) and Washington (WA) do not even think that it’s suicide, much less murder. And for those who do think it is suicide: “Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon or Washington law.” {http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions); see http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide); http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide); http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf (http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf)}
So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program: it would be someone who had already voluntarily enlisted in the program, who did not think that it was suicide, and who would be dying anyway within a limited time window—the only question would be where, and exactly when. No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours—especially if it was someone who had no close relatives or friends, to be with them at the close of their life. If we wanted to use emotional arguments: we could easily claim that it would be very cruel and coldhearted, to deny someone this privilege and opportunity.
Nevertheless, good investigators should leave feelings out of the formula, and stick with facts as far as possible. And it is a simple fact that DWD is not illegal. In fact, both OR and WA have laws against calling DWD suicide, or homicide, etc. “Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law.” {http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx)} “Actions taken in accordance with this chapter do not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, or homicide, under the law. State reports shall not refer to practice under this chapter as ‘suicide’ or ‘assisted suicide.’” {https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf (https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf)}
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf); http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf (http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf)}.
Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California. Since the DWD program is entirely voluntary, and the patient is free to back out at any time for any reason: having a second patient readily available would still allow everything to go as planned, even if one of the two changed his mind. And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
On the other hand, any unexpected discovery of a dummy at Carolwood or UCLA would’ve most likely raised huge suspicions, at the very least. To claim that a dummy could be explained away, by saying it was merely a distraction, can only be sustained by attempting to support a preconceived idea against common sense. Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn’t the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
And now for yet another amazing hoax koinkidink: “The Washington Death with Dignity Act, Initiative 1000, codified as RCW 70.245, passed on November 4, 2008 and went into effect on March 5, 2009.” {http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx (http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx)} The OR DWD law had already been around for about ten years; so even if the law in WA had not passed, OR patients could’ve been available. Once the WA law passed in November, however, it was only a matter of waiting the 120 day period for it to go into effect. It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Finally, WA is the state which not only went into effect on 3-5-09, but is also the state that had the two DWD patients which died in an “unknown” location in 2009; and yet no other “unknown” death locations before or since with WA patients, and zero “unknown” death locations with OR patients from 1998 to 2010 (3 in 2011). How many koinkidinks must line up, before we remember that koinkidink is the same excuse which people use to claim that there is no hoax at all?
Thanks TS, the dummy theory really did not convince me that great information of only two people killed "unknown", there were also rumors quoting E, Casanova with a terminal illness and that took the place of MJ.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 23, 2012, 02:35:41 PM
Given TS had said that knowing who or what went to UCLA 'that day' would shed light on hoax vs. sting court...I'm not sure if this 'confirmation' provides any answers or just more questions. I'll have to think on it some more...but need to go for a walk first to fully digest what just happened.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: marumjj on November 23, 2012, 02:50:15 PM
That's some pretty sound logic there TS. I think that for many of us that remained open to the corpse theory...the last 'hurdle' (if any) was the emotional factor...and you've cleared that hurdle in your explanation. Still, if this is what did take place (and as mentioned, that's sound logic)....getting confirmation of it has left me more emotional. Someone choosing to use their last 'act' on Earth to assist Mike is very touching and very special.
Given TS had said that knowing who or what went to UCLA 'that day' would shed light on hoax vs. sting court...I'm not sure if this 'confirmation' provides any answers or just more questions. I'll have to think on it some more...but need to go for a walk first to fully digest what just happened.
With L.O.V.E. always.
I agree with you that using a real body, should not have been an easy subject for MJ, but maybe it was not his decision and just accept the help you provided. I imagine that this plan was not entirely easy or so cheerful thought for MJ, I am inclined to think that with all the pain just got around to it, period. :bearhug:
Post by: mindseye on November 23, 2012, 03:03:29 PM
Quote
And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?:icon_lol: Definitely not a dummy.
I didn't read further into the law or know "DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. "
Very very interesting all the koinkidinks. Now waiting for bamsies. :Michael_Jackson_smiley_by_red
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 23, 2012, 03:07:47 PM
Post by: ellyd on November 23, 2012, 03:22:40 PM
DWD falling into the category of nurse-assisted suicide or DWD can be applied no matter where?
A corpse went into UCLA and another corpse went to the coroner or how do we explain how the corpse on the stretcher changed?
Camera perspective only?
Btw, everybody got his/her t-shirt if only 1 week is left, lol...
Post by: Andrea on November 23, 2012, 03:27:51 PM
I will entertain the hospice patient/corpse theory for this post. The part where you wrote and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” immediately made me think of the defense's claim that "MJ" drank propofol minutes before he died. ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2038988/Michael-Jackson-drank-Propofol-died-Conrad-Murray-trial-turned-upside-down.html ) which was their explanation for why propofol was found in the stomach. So the patient willingly drank the propofol before the paramedics showed up, died, and attempts were made to bring him back. The defense abandoned that theory, but it was still in the news for at least a month before they did. There was also that TMZ article from earlier this year where they said propofol was now being used on purpose to kill inmates on death row. http://www.tmz.com/2012/05/24/propofol-conrad-murray-missouri-michael-jackson/ Not that I think a body would be a deathrow inmate, it was the title of the article "PROPOFOL Now Used to Kill People... On Purpose" that caught my attention.
Still, if it was meant to fool the paramedics who would believe it's MJ because that's what they're told - WHAT ABOUT THE AMBULANCE PHOTO? We only see part of MJ's face and it's so recognizable as Michael, no question, maybe not currently but it definitely looks like him. I realize the photo was staged but there are paramedics in the photo - why did they not say anything about it? How can there be a photo, staged in an ambulance no less, without the responding paramedics going along with it - therefore, being in on it? I suppose the only explanation that I could consider would be if the FBI approached the paramedics afterwards and told them a photo was quickly staged afterwards and that they couldn't say why. Their reason being they needed photographic proof for Michael's enemies (sting targets) that it was him in the ambulance and the one who died. But still, even that explanation is dodgy.
If the corpse was used to fool the 2 doctors at UCLA and the coroner - they would not have only ID'd the body with a driver's license, they would've done fingerprints or DNA or dental records ESPECIALLY if the body was not recognizable as Michael. Additionally the autopsy would've revealed the terminal illness the patient had, instead of a fairly healthy guy. But I guess those last couple points would only involve the coroner, not the doctors. Did the hospice patient agree to have his lifeless body worked on for over two hours after he died? What if he had been revived somehow? What then?
It makes more sense to me to have everyone who comes into contact with the "body" to be in on it, since pulling off the hoax would depend on it. There were enough measures taken to clear out the hospital when the ambulance arrived - fire alarm pulled, stretcher surrounded, etc. But I won't dismiss the corpse theory just because I don't understand it.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 23, 2012, 03:30:43 PM
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
That brings to mind all the discussion pre-, post- and during the trial of the 'fatal dose' and who administered it (i.e. Murray, the 'patient', someone else in the house, etc). So, if DWD is what took place...then it would have been a self-administered 'fatal dose' in accordance with the law.
Thinking more on the jury...IF they were not in on it, how the heck were they supposed have figured this out with the info they had at their disposal? It wouldn't really be a fair 'sting' on them (IF they were a 'target') since in 100% of cases, the jury is only given a fraction of the 'evidence' in court and aren't allowed to do any research on their own. IF they were part of a 'sting', I don't think it was to highlight any 'ignorance' on their part (as a reflection of the general public, them being our 'peers')...but rather to highlight the limitations of a jury and the inadequacy of the system.
Sarahli:
Quote
Just a funny koinkidank La Toya just tweeted this a few minutes ago.
La Toya Jackson @latoyajackson
What is everyone doing with the left overs?
Nice catch!
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 23, 2012, 03:35:48 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 23, 2012, 03:41:57 PM
TS, just noticed that was post 226 for you.
Post by: Sarahli on November 23, 2012, 03:51:54 PM
Thanks TS - however, what about WA patients under California law?
DWD falling into the category of nurse-assisted suicide or DWD can be applied no matter where?
A corpse went into UCLA and another corpse went to the coroner or how do we explain how the corpse on the stretcher changed?
Camera perspective only?
Btw, everybody got his/her t-shirt if only 1 week is left, lol...
It seems to me that this part explains that it doesn't matter where the patient dies as long as they are residents from the 2 states allowing DWD:
Quote from: TS_comments
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf; http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf}.
Post by: curls on November 23, 2012, 04:01:51 PM
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 23, 2012, 04:17:16 PM
Over the years, there has been and still is a great deal of excellent investigation in this forum—not only in these seven levels, but in all other areas as well. With only one week to go for Level 7, though, it’s time for me to bring out the Thanksgiving leftovers on a silver platter. :LolLolLolLol:
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
This means that DWD is not murder. There are some who call it suicide, and there are some who argue against it being suicide; but there is no basis to argue that it is murder, or anything similar to murder. It is a matter of historical fact that the majority of voters in Oregon (OR) and Washington (WA) do not even think that it’s suicide, much less murder. And for those who do think it is suicide: “Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon or Washington law.” {http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions); see http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide); http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide); http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf (http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf)}
So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program: it would be someone who had already voluntarily enlisted in the program, who did not think that it was suicide, and who would be dying anyway within a limited time window—the only question would be where, and exactly when. No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours—especially if it was someone who had no close relatives or friends, to be with them at the close of their life. If we wanted to use emotional arguments: we could easily claim that it would be very cruel and coldhearted, to deny someone this privilege and opportunity.
Nevertheless, good investigators should leave feelings out of the formula, and stick with facts as far as possible. And it is a simple fact that DWD is not illegal. In fact, both OR and WA have laws against calling DWD suicide, or homicide, etc. “Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law.” {http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx)} “Actions taken in accordance with this chapter do not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, or homicide, under the law. State reports shall not refer to practice under this chapter as ‘suicide’ or ‘assisted suicide.’” {https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf (https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf)}
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf); http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf (http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf)}.
Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California. Since the DWD program is entirely voluntary, and the patient is free to back out at any time for any reason: having a second patient readily available would still allow everything to go as planned, even if one of the two changed his mind. And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
On the other hand, any unexpected discovery of a dummy at Carolwood or UCLA would’ve most likely raised huge suspicions, at the very least. To claim that a dummy could be explained away, by saying it was merely a distraction, can only be sustained by attempting to support a preconceived idea against common sense. Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn’t the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
And now for yet another amazing hoax koinkidink: “The Washington Death with Dignity Act, Initiative 1000, codified as RCW 70.245, passed on November 4, 2008 and went into effect on March 5, 2009.” {http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx (http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx)} The OR DWD law had already been around for about ten years; so even if the law in WA had not passed, OR patients could’ve been available. Once the WA law passed in November, however, it was only a matter of waiting the 120 day period for it to go into effect. It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Finally, WA is the state which not only went into effect on 3-5-09, but is also the state that had the two DWD patients which died in an “unknown” location in 2009; and yet no other “unknown” death locations before or since with WA patients, and zero “unknown” death locations with OR patients from 1998 to 2010 (3 in 2011). How many koinkidinks must line up, before we remember that koinkidink is the same excuse which people use to claim that there is no hoax at all?
@TS... thanks for those leftovers but I am really freaking out, so what I gather from your big explanation paragraph is that a dummy was not used but a DWD or terminally ill person so then I have a big question: WHO was the person that decided to give the medicine to help to die to this unknown person? was it Michael or the unknown person himself? because I am quite sure that the date June 25 2009 was chosen to be "the day" if I recall correctly there was a book released one day before on June 24 2009 talking in advance about MJ's death hoax.
Since I saw several pics with a death MJ dummy, dummy has been ever used in this hoax ?
Post by: Sarahli on November 23, 2012, 04:22:59 PM
Post by: ellyd on November 23, 2012, 04:46:54 PM
Thanks TS - however, what about WA patients under California law?
DWD falling into the category of nurse-assisted suicide or DWD can be applied no matter where?
A corpse went into UCLA and another corpse went to the coroner or how do we explain how the corpse on the stretcher changed?
Camera perspective only?
Btw, everybody got his/her t-shirt if only 1 week is left, lol...
It seems to me that this part explains that it doesn't matter where the patient dies as long as they are residents from the 2 states allowing DWD:Quote from: TS_commentsIt’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf; http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf}.
We were discussing the matter of assisted suicide that is practiced in Europe, e.g. Souza explained this long time ago.
Having a cross-state-border law application would complicate the legal situation to a degree that the jury cannot be condemned for their verdict. They find their decision on presented facts and not taking into account any other law than their own local and national law. So do we take into account what we can access - and for sure we did not consider any law made in Spitzbergen that could be applied to California as well.
Takes weight from the false judgements of the public as well.
Takes the DA out of scope as well as he considered Californian law and not any other potentially existing possibility.
This takes CM out of scope as well - he always insisted that Michael Joseph Jackson applied the drugs himself.
This indicates in addition that the situation of having someone else die that day is utterly delicate to have to be covered by such a legal bracket.
Open question: an Asian old frail man from WA who happens to have (almost) the same name as MJ? Adoption? By Joe?
Why was it required to show a dead body to so many "dead body" specialists and insiders (the public saw only prepared text and photo material)?
MJ could have died in an airplane crash, too, and vanished into the sea. This did not happen though. There was a need for a corpse. IMO the dead body was so important to play a role - despite all complications deriving from having to handle a corpse - because it was a prerequisite for the criminal sting. One could also argue that the corpse was a consequence of having a person die that day so that consecutively the corpse had to be dealt with. But still an exchange of bodies took place behind closed doors at Carolwood.
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 23, 2012, 05:04:42 PM
There is no "Who" to worry about as in "Who gave the medication". He said the law requires that the patient ingest the medicine unassisted. The patient must take the medication him or herself.
Post by: Jos on November 23, 2012, 05:13:25 PM
I must admit I didn't read the DWD information before, so obviously I couldn't have made a good statement.
My apologies :-\
But, now I did and I have read your WA document which you posted.
This and your information is indeed very logic and good.
My statement earlier (the "cold blooded and heartless" part from my FBI post earlier on this thread) wasn't nice, especially looking to it from your point of view.
It would have been an honour to die this was for a person.
So, let me get my flag :smiley-vault-misc-150: and say to you that I cannot apologize enough for that and I hope you can forgive me for that.
On the WA document there are also 2 reports of EMT involvements with "Calls for other reason (including to pronounce death)".
I suggest that these involvements are also for the 2 persons, and in fact was the EMT we have seen on video?
Also I recall that someone here noticed that she thought that there are two different ambulance videos, because she noticed different shadows (if I recall correctly).
Is it correct that there was indeed two ambulance videos made, considering 2 death patients?
Please TS, this time I don't make statements, just suggestions and questions.
And I hope you can help me find anwers for it.
Thanks :bearhug:
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 23, 2012, 05:16:03 PM
SweetSunset,
There is no "Who" to worry about as in "Who gave the medication". He said the law requires that the patient ingest the medicine unassisted. The patient must take the medication him or herself.
Thanks sweetie!! :)
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 23, 2012, 05:56:42 PM
... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
:th_bravo:
This answer is close enough, for our purposes. In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).
For our purposes, yes, I do believe so.:suspect: :icon_e_wink:
It seems Bec and TS work for the same "Team".."For OUR PURPOSES" and just what might OUR PURPOSE be?? :icon_geek:
"TS"...I LOVE you, but I ain't "BUYI_G what YE are "SELLI_G", cause I've been doing a lot of "Thinking for myself!" :LolLolLolLol:
I do however totally appreciate the wonderful "Life Lessons and skills" you have taught me on this Journey...it took me falling down a few of those "rabbit Holes" before I finally started piecing things together, but there is always a lesson to be learned on every path you take, right or wrong, doesn't matter, but the "Lesson" does!
Anyway...just sayin hello, as I won't be posting much on the "hoaxy" side of things anymore, but I want you to know that I do "Thank you" from the bottom of my Heart! You are a great teacher, and I have gained so much knowledge and Wisdom along the way...This journey changed me forever, it gave my life purpose again, cause I know now that LOVE has always been the answer, and I feel I have now come "full circle" on my own "personal" journey, my life makes sense, and I will always do my best to live and act, with LOVE, always! So, again, I sincerely thank you for taking me places that I have never thought possible...You helped me to know that it is ok to just be ME, and now I must be the Best Me I can be! Bless you TS, whoever you may be! LOVE you!
:bearhug:
and of course...I LOVE you Family!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bearhug:
Post by: Adi on November 23, 2012, 06:01:50 PM
If this is what happened, then to be able to die with dignity within Michael Jackson's house must have been very comforting for the person. Having watched my mother die from untreatable secondary liver cancer I know how agonisingly painful a terminal illness is and where I live we did not have the option of anything like the DWD laws that OR & WA have in the USA. If we did I know my mum and my family would have accessed them to save her from the terrible suffering she endured.....anyway I am getting all emotional and teary now thinking about it so I will stop there as it's not relevant to the discussion.
Interesting thought too @BTC about "who delivered the fatal dose" in the trial.
Andrea - nice catch about TS post number for this last one - 2:26 - the time of death of "Michael Jackson"
Post by: RK on November 23, 2012, 06:33:01 PM
Seems that the most logical explanation is often the right explanation as in this case.
Post by: paula-c on November 23, 2012, 06:41:58 PM
Thankyou TS. I wish we had a DWD option here is Aus. My poor Dad had to stop eating to hasten his cancer related death. Took him 6 weeks. It could have been easier for him and us.
Seems that the most logical explanation is often the right explanation as in this case.
This should be very hard for your dad and for the whole family :P
Post by: Love4Michael on November 23, 2012, 06:50:52 PM
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 23, 2012, 07:04:31 PM
Over the years, there has been and still is a great deal of excellent investigation in this forum—not only in these seven levels, but in all other areas as well. With only one week to go for Level 7, though, it’s time for me to bring out the Thanksgiving leftovers on a silver platter. :LolLolLolLol:
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
This means that DWD is not murder. There are some who call it suicide, and there are some who argue against it being suicide; but there is no basis to argue that it is murder, or anything similar to murder. It is a matter of historical fact that the majority of voters in Oregon (OR) and Washington (WA) do not even think that it’s suicide, much less murder. And for those who do think it is suicide: “Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon or Washington law.” {http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions); see http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide); http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide); http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf (http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf)}
So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program: it would be someone who had already voluntarily enlisted in the program, who did not think that it was suicide, and who would be dying anyway within a limited time window—the only question would be where, and exactly when. No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours—especially if it was someone who had no close relatives or friends, to be with them at the close of their life. If we wanted to use emotional arguments: we could easily claim that it would be very cruel and coldhearted, to deny someone this privilege and opportunity.
Nevertheless, good investigators should leave feelings out of the formula, and stick with facts as far as possible. And it is a simple fact that DWD is not illegal. In fact, both OR and WA have laws against calling DWD suicide, or homicide, etc. “Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law.” {http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx)} “Actions taken in accordance with this chapter do not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, or homicide, under the law. State reports shall not refer to practice under this chapter as ‘suicide’ or ‘assisted suicide.’” {https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf (https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf)}
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf); http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf (http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf)}.
Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California. Since the DWD program is entirely voluntary, and the patient is free to back out at any time for any reason: having a second patient readily available would still allow everything to go as planned, even if one of the two changed his mind. And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
On the other hand, any unexpected discovery of a dummy at Carolwood or UCLA would’ve most likely raised huge suspicions, at the very least. To claim that a dummy could be explained away, by saying it was merely a distraction, can only be sustained by attempting to support a preconceived idea against common sense. Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn’t the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
And now for yet another amazing hoax koinkidink: “The Washington Death with Dignity Act, Initiative 1000, codified as RCW 70.245, passed on November 4, 2008 and went into effect on March 5, 2009.” {http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx (http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx)} The OR DWD law had already been around for about ten years; so even if the law in WA had not passed, OR patients could’ve been available. Once the WA law passed in November, however, it was only a matter of waiting the 120 day period for it to go into effect. It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Finally, WA is the state which not only went into effect on 3-5-09, but is also the state that had the two DWD patients which died in an “unknown” location in 2009; and yet no other “unknown” death locations before or since with WA patients, and zero “unknown” death locations with OR patients from 1998 to 2010 (3 in 2011). How many koinkidinks must line up, before we remember that koinkidink is the same excuse which people use to claim that there is no hoax at all?
OK, I just need to clarify that when I said to TS I'm not buying what he is selling, I was referring to the way TS words his posts, to "Lead" us now to believe that someone "died" in MJ's place. I was in no way trying to make light of the DWD law!!
My point in all of this is that we will NEVER know exactly HOW Michael pulled this off, until Michael himself tells us!! TS is just giving us information that "could" be valid, but it also might not be...TS says not to take his word as truth...Notice how carefully his posts are worded, it is all about how we "perceive" his words, he covers his butt, especially when he says if MJ hasn't Bammed by January1st, we can know him to be a "fake" informer!! If he knew Michael was going to Bam for sure by that date, why would he need to give us this option, that he "May" be a fake informer??
The above information from TS, still doesn't tell us what really went on that day...TS just gives us some "valid" information about the DWD law, but then he uses words like I have bolded above, "most likely" and "Maybe"...he isn't saying this is what actually happened!!
Anyway, just wanted to clarify this.
Blessings and LOVE!
Post by: paula-c on November 23, 2012, 07:39:38 PM
Initiative 1000
Specific provisions in the initiative
Provisions in the law include:
The patient must be an adult (18 or over) resident of the state of Washington
The patient must be mentally competent, verified by two physicians (or referred to a mental health evaluation)
The patient must be terminally ill with less than 6 months to live, verified by two physicians.
The patient must make voluntary requests, without coercion, verified by two physicians
The patient must be informed of all other options including palliative and hospice care
There is a 15 day waiting period between the first oral request and a written request
There is a 48 hour waiting period between the written request and the writing of the prescription
The written request must be signed by two independent witnesses, at least one of whom is not related to the patient or employed by the health care facility
The patient is encouraged to discuss with family (not required because of confidentiality laws)
The patient may change their mind at any time and rescind the request
The attending physician may sign the patient's death certificate which must list the underlying terminal disease as the cause of death
(http://www.janetcharltonshollywood.com/images/2011/01/necover-2009-1cut.jpg)
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 23, 2012, 07:53:32 PM
I am truly confused now by TS's post. Maybe my judgment is being clouded because I do not believe in the DWD law or maybe it's because I can't picture MJ letting someone go through with this just to satisfy a body for his hoax (whether the person was ill or not or volunteered or not). I have personal reasons why we shouldn't play God with our own lives but I'll leave it alone because it is a fact that it is a law in two states.
Why does the unknown persons from WA have to be in California? There are plenty of other states the person could have gone to. To me this is just speculation without any true proof.
If the WA patient DWD theory is correct then Michael didn't have the ending figured out until the last few months and I don't believe that to be true (because the laws went into effect in 2009). Now this makes me start believing in coincidence. Crumb.
This theory makes the least amount of sense to me but then I am only one person. I'll keep watchin' to see where the pieces fall in the next few weeks.
Blessings
PS - and then why choose a cardiologist to care for this patient instead of one more qualified? Just to satisfy the hoax appearance seems really cruel and I think that if this is true then Michael will receive more backlash then using a dummy.
Post by: paula-c on November 23, 2012, 08:11:32 PM
yes, the puzzle begins to make sense
Initiative 1000
Specific provisions in the initiative
Provisions in the law include:
The patient must be an adult (18 or over) resident of the state of Washington
The patient must be mentally competent, verified by two physicians (or referred to a mental health evaluation)
The patient must be terminally ill with less than 6 months to live, verified by two physicians.
The patient must make voluntary requests, without coercion, verified by two physicians
The patient must be informed of all other options including palliative and hospice care
There is a 15 day waiting period between the first oral request and a written request
There is a 48 hour waiting period between the written request and the writing of the prescription
The written request must be signed by two independent witnesses, at least one of whom is not related to the patient or employed by the health care facility
The patient is encouraged to discuss with family (not required because of confidentiality laws)
The patient may change their mind at any time and rescind the request
The attending physician may sign the patient's death certificate which must list the underlying terminal disease as the cause of death
(http://www.janetcharltonshollywood.com/images/2011/01/necover-2009-1cut.jpg)
Quote
All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax[/quote]
Although I have a problem with this and the numerology, the time spent to plan the hoax and the date of the death of this person that coincides with the day and the precise time, or was made to match that fits with the numbers of the hoax
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 23, 2012, 08:33:44 PM
Post by: scorpionchik on November 23, 2012, 08:46:27 PM
Over the years, there has been and still is a great deal of excellent investigation in this forum—not only in these seven levels, but in all other areas as well. With only one week to go for Level 7, though, it’s time for me to bring out the Thanksgiving leftovers on a silver platter. :LolLolLolLol:
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
This means that DWD is not murder. There are some who call it suicide, and there are some who argue against it being suicide; but there is no basis to argue that it is murder, or anything similar to murder. It is a matter of historical fact that the majority of voters in Oregon (OR) and Washington (WA) do not even think that it’s suicide, much less murder. And for those who do think it is suicide: “Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon or Washington law.” {http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions); see http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide); http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide); http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf (http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf)}
So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program: it would be someone who had already voluntarily enlisted in the program, who did not think that it was suicide, and who would be dying anyway within a limited time window—the only question would be where, and exactly when. No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours—especially if it was someone who had no close relatives or friends, to be with them at the close of their life. If we wanted to use emotional arguments: we could easily claim that it would be very cruel and coldhearted, to deny someone this privilege and opportunity.
Nevertheless, good investigators should leave feelings out of the formula, and stick with facts as far as possible. And it is a simple fact that DWD is not illegal. In fact, both OR and WA have laws against calling DWD suicide, or homicide, etc. “Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law.” {http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx)} “Actions taken in accordance with this chapter do not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, or homicide, under the law. State reports shall not refer to practice under this chapter as ‘suicide’ or ‘assisted suicide.’” {https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf (https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf)}
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf); http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf (http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf)}.
Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California. Since the DWD program is entirely voluntary, and the patient is free to back out at any time for any reason: having a second patient readily available would still allow everything to go as planned, even if one of the two changed his mind. And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
On the other hand, any unexpected discovery of a dummy at Carolwood or UCLA would’ve most likely raised huge suspicions, at the very least. To claim that a dummy could be explained away, by saying it was merely a distraction, can only be sustained by attempting to support a preconceived idea against common sense. Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn’t the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
And now for yet another amazing hoax koinkidink: “The Washington Death with Dignity Act, Initiative 1000, codified as RCW 70.245, passed on November 4, 2008 and went into effect on March 5, 2009.” {http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx (http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx)} The OR DWD law had already been around for about ten years; so even if the law in WA had not passed, OR patients could’ve been available. Once the WA law passed in November, however, it was only a matter of waiting the 120 day period for it to go into effect. It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Finally, WA is the state which not only went into effect on 3-5-09, but is also the state that had the two DWD patients which died in an “unknown” location in 2009; and yet no other “unknown” death locations before or since with WA patients, and zero “unknown” death locations with OR patients from 1998 to 2010 (3 in 2011). How many koinkidinks must line up, before we remember that koinkidink is the same excuse which people use to claim that there is no hoax at all?
I don't get what Death With Dignity (=actual death) law that passed in WA and OR has to do with CA death hoax= no death we are talking about here. Where is the connection? :suspect:
All I read is rethorical questions and vague answers on them pointing on DWD by dummy or not dummy. I don't buy this. :icon_e_confused:
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 23, 2012, 09:06:10 PM
Over the years, there has been and still is a great deal of excellent investigation in this forum—not only in these seven levels, but in all other areas as well. With only one week to go for Level 7, though, it’s time for me to bring out the Thanksgiving leftovers on a silver platter. :LolLolLolLol:
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
This means that DWD is not murder. There are some who call it suicide, and there are some who argue against it being suicide; but there is no basis to argue that it is murder, or anything similar to murder. It is a matter of historical fact that the majority of voters in Oregon (OR) and Washington (WA) do not even think that it’s suicide, much less murder. And for those who do think it is suicide: “Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon or Washington law.” {http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions); see http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide); http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide); http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf (http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf)}
So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program: it would be someone who had already voluntarily enlisted in the program, who did not think that it was suicide, and who would be dying anyway within a limited time window—the only question would be where, and exactly when. No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours—especially if it was someone who had no close relatives or friends, to be with them at the close of their life. If we wanted to use emotional arguments: we could easily claim that it would be very cruel and coldhearted, to deny someone this privilege and opportunity.
Nevertheless, good investigators should leave feelings out of the formula, and stick with facts as far as possible. And it is a simple fact that DWD is not illegal. In fact, both OR and WA have laws against calling DWD suicide, or homicide, etc. “Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law.” {http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx)} “Actions taken in accordance with this chapter do not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, or homicide, under the law. State reports shall not refer to practice under this chapter as ‘suicide’ or ‘assisted suicide.’” {https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf (https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf)}
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf); http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf (http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf)}.
Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California. Since the DWD program is entirely voluntary, and the patient is free to back out at any time for any reason: having a second patient readily available would still allow everything to go as planned, even if one of the two changed his mind. And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
On the other hand, any unexpected discovery of a dummy at Carolwood or UCLA would’ve most likely raised huge suspicions, at the very least. To claim that a dummy could be explained away, by saying it was merely a distraction, can only be sustained by attempting to support a preconceived idea against common sense. Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn’t the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
And now for yet another amazing hoax koinkidink: “The Washington Death with Dignity Act, Initiative 1000, codified as RCW 70.245, passed on November 4, 2008 and went into effect on March 5, 2009.” {http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx (http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx)} The OR DWD law had already been around for about ten years; so even if the law in WA had not passed, OR patients could’ve been available. Once the WA law passed in November, however, it was only a matter of waiting the 120 day period for it to go into effect. It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Finally, WA is the state which not only went into effect on 3-5-09, but is also the state that had the two DWD patients which died in an “unknown” location in 2009; and yet no other “unknown” death locations before or since with WA patients, and zero “unknown” death locations with OR patients from 1998 to 2010 (3 in 2011). How many koinkidinks must line up, before we remember that koinkidink is the same excuse which people use to claim that there is no hoax at all?
I don't get what Death With Dignity (=actual death) law that passed in WA and OR has to do with CA death hoax= no death we are talking about here. Where is the connection? :suspect:
All I read is rethorical questions and vague answers on them pointing on DWD by dummy or not dummy. I don't buy this. :icon_e_confused:
Sooooo :animal0017: there is no DWD law in California?
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 23, 2012, 09:27:58 PM
Over the years, there has been and still is a great deal of excellent investigation in this forum—not only in these seven levels, but in all other areas as well. With only one week to go for Level 7, though, it’s time for me to bring out the Thanksgiving leftovers on a silver platter. :LolLolLolLol:
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
This means that DWD is not murder. There are some who call it suicide, and there are some who argue against it being suicide; but there is no basis to argue that it is murder, or anything similar to murder. It is a matter of historical fact that the majority of voters in Oregon (OR) and Washington (WA) do not even think that it’s suicide, much less murder. And for those who do think it is suicide: “Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon or Washington law.” {http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions); see http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide); http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide); http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf (http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf)}
So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program: it would be someone who had already voluntarily enlisted in the program, who did not think that it was suicide, and who would be dying anyway within a limited time window—the only question would be where, and exactly when. No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours—especially if it was someone who had no close relatives or friends, to be with them at the close of their life. If we wanted to use emotional arguments: we could easily claim that it would be very cruel and coldhearted, to deny someone this privilege and opportunity.
Nevertheless, good investigators should leave feelings out of the formula, and stick with facts as far as possible. And it is a simple fact that DWD is not illegal. In fact, both OR and WA have laws against calling DWD suicide, or homicide, etc. “Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law.” {http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx)} “Actions taken in accordance with this chapter do not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, or homicide, under the law. State reports shall not refer to practice under this chapter as ‘suicide’ or ‘assisted suicide.’” {https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf (https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf)}
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf); http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf (http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf)}.
Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California. Since the DWD program is entirely voluntary, and the patient is free to back out at any time for any reason: having a second patient readily available would still allow everything to go as planned, even if one of the two changed his mind. And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
On the other hand, any unexpected discovery of a dummy at Carolwood or UCLA would’ve most likely raised huge suspicions, at the very least. To claim that a dummy could be explained away, by saying it was merely a distraction, can only be sustained by attempting to support a preconceived idea against common sense. Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn’t the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
And now for yet another amazing hoax koinkidink: “The Washington Death with Dignity Act, Initiative 1000, codified as RCW 70.245, passed on November 4, 2008 and went into effect on March 5, 2009.” {http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx (http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx)} The OR DWD law had already been around for about ten years; so even if the law in WA had not passed, OR patients could’ve been available. Once the WA law passed in November, however, it was only a matter of waiting the 120 day period for it to go into effect. It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Finally, WA is the state which not only went into effect on 3-5-09, but is also the state that had the two DWD patients which died in an “unknown” location in 2009; and yet no other “unknown” death locations before or since with WA patients, and zero “unknown” death locations with OR patients from 1998 to 2010 (3 in 2011). How many koinkidinks must line up, before we remember that koinkidink is the same excuse which people use to claim that there is no hoax at all?
I don't get what Death With Dignity (=actual death) law that passed in WA and OR has to do with CA death hoax= no death we are talking about here. Where is the connection? :suspect:
All I read is rethorical questions and vague answers on them pointing on DWD by dummy or not dummy. I don't buy this. :icon_e_confused:
Sooooo :animal0017: there is no DWD law in California?
I guess not, even though Schwarzenegge signed off on it in 2008 it must have never been made law.
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/california-gov-signs-assisted-suicide-information-bill-law (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/california-gov-signs-assisted-suicide-information-bill-law)
Also this quote is from a list of state laws on assisted suicide:
"5. California Cal. Penal Code Sec. 401(24 KB) "Every person who deliberately aids, or advises, or encourages another to commit suicide, is guilty of a felony.””
http://euthanasia.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000132 (http://euthanasia.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000132)
So I guess I’m back to the dummy theory. :Pulling_hair: I don’t see Michael allowing the law to be broken in his home with his a-foreknowledge.
Post by: mindseye on November 23, 2012, 10:16:25 PM
http://www.wnd.com/2008/10/76713/
Post by: bec on November 23, 2012, 11:05:33 PM
And why would they have to? Why couldn't MJ have rented a home in Seattle and died there? Why did it HAVE to take place in LA, California where assisted suicide is, by law, considered murder? Public exposure and proximity to an Elvis house trumps the law?
Besides, look at that list of qualifications paula posted. All those people the patient is required to consult and notify and counsel with and we are to accept that this is fewer people in on it then the ~10 we listed and their corresponding supervisors? No way.
Besides, as someone wisely already pointed out, so ok, this person took the suicide pills and they sent him to UCLA as MJ. At UCLA, they worked on that body (reportedly) for nearly an hour and a half. What if they revived the person? Perhaps you will say that the risk of that is so slight it's almost nothing (statistics) but I'll remind you that they reportedly DID. If Cooper isn't in on it then what she says is true, they did restart this person's heart and they did have a pulse for some time, inserted a balloon pump, had ventricle movement and heart activity. Then supposedly, ultimately, the patient's heart just couldn't sustain a regular rhythm and crashed again, and they called clinical death.
Also, if there was a terminally ill patient that died in MJs place, why is there no mention of these suicide drugs in the autopsy? Not to mention the underlying condition like Andrea said, no mention of any terminal illness.
Everything Andrea said should be considered, for that matter.
I just don't believe the FBI is going to arrange a public circus death for MJ, and therefore requiring a person to really die, in order to create a media scene to satisfy MJ's artistic vision. As it was also stated, MJ could have died privately with a pic or two posted and the memorial/funeral/news articles all could have conveyed to MJ's "enemies" that he was dead just as well as that ambulance/helicopter/coroner van parade of nothing but implied images did. What did that show us (and the "enemies")? Nothing, really, nothing at all. As we have proven after 3 years, it could have been anything or nothing on that stretcher for all the media consuming public could tell. So why was it done? Seems obvious, for show, as a display, an illusion, performance art for the media and the public and the fans.
Because someone brought it up, there was only 1 ambulance at Carrolwood.
@mjj4ever777, if I were working on the same team as TS I'd agree with him more often, don't you think?
Post by: bec on November 23, 2012, 11:13:33 PM
I found the article about California approving nurse-assisted suicide. Remember, Dr.Murray was there to assist. But he's also doing time. :icon_e_confused:
http://www.wnd.com/2008/10/76713/
That's turning off a feeding tube which is not applicable to the terminally ill patient theory, due to it being a death that can take hours or weeks, with no way of knowing when the person will die. It's also an option only considered for mentally ill patients or vegetative/confused state patients, not someone who seeks out the treatment, rather patients who are not mentally "there" at all.
TS is speculating that the alleged patient took a suicide pill which results in a rather more punctual and predictable time of death.
Post by: ellyd on November 24, 2012, 01:07:58 AM
A hospice patient resident from WA would be covered by WA law. In addition, if he travels to CA to die there, he (and assisting medical staff) would be legally covered since 2008. Opponents to the Californian Act argue that rather doctors are required to assist than nurses. There was a doctor available at Carolwood.
What was not mentioned by TS is that 2 of the participants in the DWD Act in WA in 2009 did NOT die, that none had a heart disease and that those who died died from intake of barbiturates and not Propofol.
There are two medications in use for DWD: Secobarbital and Pentobarbital.
Secobarbital (marketed under Seconal) is used for treatment of epilepsy, temporary treatment of insomnia and as a preoperative medication in short surgical, diagnostic, or therapeutic procedures which are minimally painful.
Seconal is available in the U.S. only in 100 mg. capsules, as a sodium salt. The salt is a white hygroscopic powder that is soluble in water and ethanol.
Quote
Secobarbital was widely misused in the 1960s and 1970s, and accidental overdose was associated with the drug. Consequently, prescription of Seconal decreased greatly beginning in the early 1980s, by which time benzodiazepines had become increasingly common.
Pentobarbital is used in animal euthanasia and in human euthanasia and is applied either (assisted by a physician) intravenously or (non-assisted) in a concentrated oral solution. Pentobarbital is FDA approved for sedation e.g.
Quote
The US state of Texas executed its first death row inmate with a single lethal injection of the sedative pentobarbital on July 18, 2012. [...] The Danish manufacturer of pentobarbital, Lundbeck, expressed displeasure at this use of their product, and on July 1, 2011, announced they would block sales of the drug to U.S. prisons that carry out the death penalty.
Barbiturates will lead to respiratory depressant effects: "he's not breathing". The symptoms of barbiturate intoxication include respiratory depression, lowered blood pressure, fatigue, fever, unusual excitement, irritability, dizziness, poor concentration, sedation, confusion, impaired coordination, impaired judgment, addiction, and respiratory arrest, which may lead to death.
Marilyn Monroe, Judy Garland, Jean Seberg, and Kenneth Williams died from barbiturate overdose.
All of the above may be deepened on http://en.wikipedia.org.
A hospice patient is a realistic picture and would explain why many elements we were told would not fit to an MJ death but to another person's death (e.g. identification via driver's license by the family - how would they know the person if they never met before).
Still, there are quite a lot of questions remaining open.
CM being hired by AEG for a hospice patient who would die in MJ's place to enable a hoax? Not very plausible.
So CM had to be hired by MJ (or an agency) and not by AEG.
A corpse requires a lot of additional care, time, transport, security etc.
The second the bodyguards showed up at UCLA, it was clear that the corpse belonged to a celebrity and was not a John Doe. Questions for identification. An emergency team will for sure not be pleased to welcome a football team aside a stretcher when the patient alone would do. This means trouble and is hindering regular procedures.
So why were the bodyguards with a corpse that was not MJ's, if it was not for make.believe and the paps and only an additional burden to the situation?
There are many more questions but I'll leave it at that for the time being.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 02:27:34 AM
Though it's true that the Wikipedia article has not stated anywhere that a patient needs to be present in WA, but it's matter of common sense. Beyond my country's borders I cannot do things which are only acceptable in my country. TS, if what you are saying is true, can you send the link so that we can all refer? But the death certificate DOES NOT mention any terminal illness which makes this DWD theory false.
If the hoax is happening in California, it has to be according to the Californian laws. It won't make sense if some other state's laws are brought in between. And, what are the chances that the patient happens to admire (if not a fan) Michael Jackson and is willing to assist him in death hoax by dying.
A fan, if given an opportunity, will definitely give his/her all to be of any help to Michael. But what is the guarantee that the particular patient is willing to help Michael. It's an assumption. And it's highly hypothetical if it's said that the other patient ALSO is willing to help Michael, if the first patient retracts his DWD decision. What if these both patients believe the media lies of Michael just as the general public does? What's the proof that the death of the patient took place in California in the first place...it was only written 'unknown', wasn't it?
That again makes us question, so what really went into UCLA.
I am still not sure whether it was a corpse or dummy. Because as far as 'realism' is concerned, a corpse would be apt, and as far as 'success of the hoax' is concerned, it would be better if all the paramedics are involved. And if all the paramedics are involved, why need a corpse? to meet unforeseen circumstances?
Another point I want to put forth is that what is the reason that FBI would team up with Michael. Do they have their own purposes, that somewhere matches with Michael's purposes?
makes me think of this:
... I feel that all the major segments of this world are under the sting...which might include, the justice system, the media, pharmaceuticals, finances, politics (?)
and then finally the public (including fans, the non-believers, who think murray is guilty)
:th_bravo:
This answer is close enough, for our purposes. In fact, the focus of the sting is not even the subject of Level 7 (that was Level 4--which had a lot of good investigation and discussion, but the fullest answer on this will not come until after BAM).
So, I really wonder what reason FBI would be helping Michael for...
Post by: RK on November 24, 2012, 02:27:52 AM
Quote
A hospice patient resident from WA would be covered by WA law. In addition, if he travels to CA to die there, he (and assisting medical staff) would be legally covered since 2008. Opponents to the Californian Act argue that rather doctors are required to assist than nurses. There was a doctor available at Carolwood.
Thankyou Grace for explaining this so clearly...this is how I understood it from TS' post when reading it also.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 02:36:53 AM
Post by: curls on November 24, 2012, 02:39:40 AM
From TS's post:
"It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. "
So could it be argued that this is a test case, using this loophole in OR and WA law, challenging CA law? Or, as ellyd has just posted, it is not an issue anyway, as the patient would still be covered by WA law.
Then you said:
"Besides, look at that list of qualifications paula posted. All those people the patient is required to consult and notify and counsel with and we are to accept that this is fewer people in on it then the ~10 we listed and their corresponding supervisors? No way."
As I understand it all those people are only required to set up a patient in the DWD program - not necessarily to follow them through to the end (hence the many listed 'unknowns', not only for 'place of death'). They would not have to be in on the hoax.
There are several bits of TS's post that don't have his usual trademark precision e.g. "Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California." ( That's a tad presumptive don't you think?); "So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program...." ('cooperated' - strange word to use IMO); "All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?" (So did the ambulance pic look like 2009 MJ?)
But ultimately he is asking us to believe that a whole bunch of professionals were in contact with a dead body that they simply assumed, or were told, was Michael Jackson - and not one of them took a really good look at the most scrutinised face of the last 30 odd years, and questioned the identity of their patient. And if they did they were either silenced by the FBI or told it was a decoy. Is that it?
I'm left asking WHY? IF this IS what happened I don't see how it can have been just about the procurement of a 'body' for 25th June realism purposes - the reasons why this wasn't necessary hoax-wise have been gone over many times by those of us who think this way, so IF it really did happen as TS is now implying, why?
Does this by TS give me my answer:
"Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy."
And I ask again, whose hoax is it anyway? Michael Jackson's or FBI's?
Post by: Adore on November 24, 2012, 02:47:30 AM
I say IF regarding the FBI's involvement because I'm not totally sure how come is FBI helping Michael achieving his artistic goals. I understand their help in the life-threatening situations, but is it legal for them to assist people in their career endeavors, so to speak ? That said, I'm aware that no matter of Michael's motifs, the hoax cannot be done without the help of some high authority - not sure which one could be, though.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 02:58:19 AM
TS hasn't convinced me either but there are a couple of things in your post Bec, that he'll pull you up for, so allow me to do it first!
From TS's post:
"It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. "
So could it be argued that this is a test case, using this loophole in OR and WA law, challenging CA law? Or, as ellyd has just posted, it is not an issue anyway, as the patient would still be covered by WA law.
Then you said:
"Besides, look at that list of qualifications paula posted. All those people the patient is required to consult and notify and counsel with and we are to accept that this is fewer people in on it then the ~10 we listed and their corresponding supervisors? No way."
As I understand it all those people are only required to set up a patient in the DWD program - not necessarily to follow them through to the end (hence the many listed 'unknowns', not only for 'place of death'). They would not have to be in on the hoax.
There are several bits of TS's post that don't have his usual trademark precision e.g. "Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California." ( That's a tad presumptive don't you think?); "So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program...." ('cooperated' - strange word to use IMO); "All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?" (So did the ambulance pic look like 2009 MJ?)
But ultimately he is asking us to believe that a whole bunch of professionals were in contact with a dead body that they simply assumed, or were told, was Michael Jackson - and not one of them took a really good look at the most scrutinised face of the last 30 odd years, and questioned the identity of their patient. And if they did they were either silenced by the FBI or told it was a decoy. Is that it?
I'm left asking WHY? IF this IS what happened I don't see how it can have been just about the procurement of a 'body' for 25th June realism purposes - the reasons why this wasn't necessary hoax-wise have been gone over many times by those of us who think this way, so IF it really did happen as TS is now implying, why?
Does this by TS give me my answer:
"Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy."
And I ask again, whose hoax is it anyway? Michael Jackson's or FBI's?
I'm not really sure about the answer for your question curls, but i think we got a hint of what our next step would/should be.
TS wants us to find 'evidence'... 'evidence' that would clearly tell us what went to UCLA
how are we supposed to find the evidence and from where?
Post by: MJonmind on November 24, 2012, 03:13:24 AM
The only thing is-- I felt a certain level of dismay as I read it. I'm thinking that if we here in hoaxland, who love MJ, you TS and those involved in helping this project, are feeling sickened by the thought of using the very unfortunate person dying and likely in pain to end his life on hoax-death-day-- then what horrible thoughts will the rest of the fans or general public think of this usage. They will most certainly call MJ a murderer and monster, and speculate that if he could do that to a poor dying man, then could he have done other things questionable as well. Given the 2 accusations and trial, it makes it doubly tricky.
I know you're saying it's not illegal, and that emotions shouldn't be involved, but we know about human history and even today throughout the world, where it has often been the case that the weak were taken advantage of, whether children, or blacks, or natives, or women, or the poor, or differing ethnic groups. I just don't know what to do with this. If it is really true, I'm sure that everything was done as humanely as possible, but it's weird now that details are brought forward by Andrea, Bec, Ellyd, Everlastinglove that it doesn't feel right.
Are you actually wanting us to contend against this, and were you really just testing us? I know you said in the 911 post that a magician never completely reveals his secrets how he created the illusion. Have you simply put this DWD story as another distraction just before Level 7, to send our DH roller-coaster into another plunge and spin?
Post by: scorpionchik on November 24, 2012, 03:24:46 AM
I found the article about California approving nurse-assisted suicide. Remember, Dr.Murray was there to assist. But he's also doing time. :icon_e_confused:
http://www.wnd.com/2008/10/76713/
TS is speculating that the alleged patient took a suicide pill which results in a rather more punctual and predictable time of death.
Meaning, TS points out that real hospice patient died as MJ which is backed up by DWD law that somewhat explains/justifies hoax?
Not sure even what I say makes any sense. :icon_rolleyes:
Post by: ellyd on November 24, 2012, 03:26:42 AM
QuoteA hospice patient resident from WA would be covered by WA law. In addition, if he travels to CA to die there, he (and assisting medical staff) would be legally covered since 2008. Opponents to the Californian Act argue that rather doctors are required to assist than nurses. There was a doctor available at Carolwood.
Thankyou Grace for explaining this so clearly...this is how I understood it from TS' post when reading it also.
Don't take my words as truth. I am not a lawyer, I am not in the Americas. I just give my understanding on this delicate matter from a distance. There are many questions left to answer.
Assisted suicide in California would - according to my understanding - include information and counseling, first, and it would apply to health care facilities only, not to a private home (except a "congregate living health facility" which requires a license).
Assisted suicide in California would primarily refer to stop current disease targeted treatments for a patient but not refer to order barbiturates for a patient who wants to die from them. That's a different category IMO.
In the proposed combination of DWD covered by WA law, a WA doctor could prescribe the required barbiturates and the hospice patient may take them in in California with no consequences for the Californian physicians if they only gave appropriate and required information and counseling and did not partake in getting the drugs and administering them.
That's my take on it. It's as always the details that make the balance go down on the right or left side.
The amended text reads as follows:
Quote
This bill would provide that when a health care provider, ashttp://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_2701-2750/ab_2747_bill_20080813_amended_sen_v93.html (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_2701-2750/ab_2747_bill_20080813_amended_sen_v93.html)
defined, makes a diagnosis that a patient has a terminal illness, the
health care provider shall, upon the patient's request, provide the
patient with comprehensive information and counseling
regarding legal end-of-life options, as specified, and provide for
the referral or transfer of a patient , as provided, if
the patient's health care provider does not wish to comply with the
patient's request for information on end-of-life options.
"Health care provider" including a "nurse practitioner" in the defintion, too.
"Health care facility"
Quote
means anyhttp://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=01001-02000&file=1250-1264 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=01001-02000&file=1250-1264)
facility, place, or building that is organized, maintained, and
operated for the diagnosis, care, prevention, and treatment of human
illness, physical or mental, including convalescence and
rehabilitation [...] to which the persons are admitted for a 24-hour
stay or longer [...]
Quote
When a health care provider makes a diagnosis that ahttp://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_2701-2750/ab_2747_bill_20080813_amended_sen_v93.html (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_2701-2750/ab_2747_bill_20080813_amended_sen_v93.html)
patient has a terminal illness, the health care provider shall ,
upon the patient's request, provide the patient with
comprehensive information and counseling regarding legal end-of-life
care options , upon the patient's request and
pursuant to this section. When a terminally ill patient is in a
health facility, as defined in Section 1250, the health care
provider, or medical director of the health facility, if the patient'
s health care provider is not available, may refer the patient to a
hospice provider or private or public agencies and community-based
organizations that specialize in end-of-life care case management and
consultation to receive comprehensive
information and counseling regarding legal end-of-life care options.
[...]
Information that is helpful to patients and
their families includes, but is not limited to, the availability of
hospice care, the efficacy and potential side effects of continued
disease-targeted treatment,
and withholding or withdrawal of life-sustaining treatments.
[...]
(f) "Refusal or withdrawal of life-sustaining treatment" means
forgoing treatment or medical procedures that replace or support an
essential bodily function, including, but not limited to,
cardiopulmonary resuscitation, mechanical ventilation, artificial
nutrition and hydration, dialysis, and any other treatment or
discontinuing any or all of those treatments after they have been
used for a reasonable time.
So a health care facility is not a private home but (and now it gets tricky) also a
Quote
(i) (1) "Congregate living health facility" means a residentialhttp://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=01001-02000&file=1250-1264 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=hsc&group=01001-02000&file=1250-1264)
home with a capacity, except as provided in paragraph (4), of no more
than 12 beds, that provides inpatient care, including the following
basic services: medical supervision, 24-hour skilled nursing and
supportive care, pharmacy, dietary, social, recreational, and at
least one type of service specified in paragraph (2). The primary
need of congregate living health facility residents shall be for
availability of skilled nursing care on a recurring, intermittent,
extended, or continuous basis. This care is generally less intense
than that provided in general acute care hospitals but more intense
than that provided in skilled nursing facilities.
(2) Congregate living health facilities shall provide one of the
following services:
(A) Services for persons who are mentally alert, persons with
physical disabilities, who may be ventilator dependent.
(B) Services for persons who have a diagnosis of terminal illness,
a diagnosis of a life-threatening illness, or both. Terminal illness
means the individual has a life expectancy of six months or less as
stated in writing by his or her attending physician and surgeon. A
"life-threatening illness" means the individual has an illness that
can lead to a possibility of a termination of life within five years
or less as stated in writing by his or her attending physician and
surgeon.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 24, 2012, 03:39:24 AM
you don't say that hospice patient was "delivered" from WA to CA to die "with dignity" as Michael Jackson, do you? Would MJ allow that happen? I highly doubt it. As for FBI, true one memb. said, they have power to do make things simple, not bothering ill people.
Just stop right there...
Post by: ellyd on November 24, 2012, 03:44:59 AM
I think main interest was to legally get a patient to enter UCLA and to monitor what happened then.
Why this patient officially had to be Michael Joseph Jackson does not enter my brains though.
There is a link back to MJ's accusations and illegally sedating people for third party interests is what got stuck in my head.
The FBI was said to have found evidence about third party's crimes when checking MJ's case.
IMO we are dealing with a multiple criminal sting situation - on the medical / agency side and on MJ's side.
Joint interests, win-win situation.
This gives an idea on criminal activities in the medical field: http://www.havocscope.com/tag/organ-trafficking/ (http://www.havocscope.com/tag/organ-trafficking/)
UCLA being a teaching hospital, needing many corpses for teaching purposes, may have other difficulties.
The Coroner facing severe financial issues since quite a while could have seen some creative ideas. I really don't know and may be waaaaaayyyyyy off.
There was a reason why it was not Cedars but UCLA.
Post by: MJonmind on November 24, 2012, 04:03:52 AM
Curls
Quote
Does this by TS give me my answer:Good question.
"Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy."
And I ask again, whose hoax is it anyway? Michael Jackson's or FBI's?
Just thinking about Elvis, who supposedly said that a hospice patient was used for his fake death, and Elvis was afraid the doctor may have had to pull the plug a few days earlier, or something like that. They had brought it in the night before and it was brought down to the bathroom where Elvis spent the night. Then just before his girlfriend (was it Ginger?) came down, he hid in the closet the whole time of discovery and medics coming. I think he was already involved with the FBI or Secret Service.
Post by: Adi on November 24, 2012, 04:10:30 AM
This terminally ill patient is the one who ultimately decides to administer it to themselves. A doctor or other health practitioner does not hold them down and force it down their throats.
After satifying the laws pertaining to DWD in either Oregon or Washington, once the patient has the medication in their possession, in theory could they travel wherever they want within the borders of he USA with the medication in their checked luggage or even just by road transport? could they go to a hotel in Las Vegas/California/any other state within the USA and administer it to themselves with no other person knowing or being present? or DOES a doctor have to be present when the patient decides to take the medication?
Does any one else need to be there?
I presume, just as in Australia, people in the USA are able to transport medication for personal use which has been legitimately prescribed in a different state - such as sleeping pills/anti-depressants/pain killers/insulin - over state borders to another state ? Once a DWD patient is in possession of the medication to end their life - what would stop them going to another state (if they were able and had the means) and doing this all alone if they are solely responsible for the administration of the "fatal dose"? They are not travelling to a different country nor are they transporting illegal drugs such as cocaine or heroine.
Just a thought anyway.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 04:18:46 AM
It is the terminally ill patient who is prescribed the medication.
This terminally ill patient is the one who ultimately decides to administer it to themselves. A doctor or other health practitioner does not hold them down and force it down their throats.
After satifying the laws pertaining to DWD in either Oregon or Washington, once the patient has the medication in their possession, in theory could they travel wherever they want within the borders of he USA with the medication in their checked luggage or even just by road transport? could they go to a hotel in Las Vegas/California/any other state within the USA and administer it to themselves with no other person knowing or being present? or DOES a doctor have to be present when the patient decides to take the medication?
Does any one else need to be there?
I presume, just as in Australia, people in the USA are able to transport medication for personal use which has been legitimately prescribed in a different state - such as sleeping pills/anti-depressants/pain killers/insulin - over state borders to another state (if they were able and had the means)? Once a DWD patient is in possession of the medication to end their life - what would stop them going to another state and doing this all alone if they are solely responsible for the administration of the "fatal dose"? They are not travelling to a different country nor are they transporting illegal drugs like cocaine or heroine.
Just a thought anyway.
it's stated in the Wikipedia article that the patient can ingest drug/medication without any assistance.
Quote
In 1991, the similar initiative 119 was rejected by Washington voters by a margin of 54 percent to 46 percent. I-119 would have allowed doctors to prescribe a lethal dosage of medication, and also to administer it if the terminally ill patient could not self-administer.[4] Unlike that initiative, I-1000 requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.[5]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act]
and if the DWD theory is correct, the patient need not even carry any drug to kill himself. He could've consumed it at Carolwood...Michael's home.
Post by: ellyd on November 24, 2012, 04:24:26 AM
It may not feel right if you look only at hospice. But what if this hospice scenario is actually not only touching the biggest taboo of a potentially unpleasant death that could become reality for each of us but is only intermediate storey required to go after and stop yet another dimension of "unpleasant cruel and unethical"?
Of course, discussions and wildest accusations of "unethical" and whatever may be heard for MJ like we heard them already for CM.
However, I am absolutely convinced that the cause that made Michael "want to die for it" in this project is the right one.
Post by: Adi on November 24, 2012, 04:31:45 AM
If a doctor, or in fact any other person, legally does NOT need to be present, then I do not see why they could not travel to another state if they were able and ingest the medication wherever and whenever they feel the time has come.
Do we know for a fact that there was even anyone present in the house that day/night of June 24th 2009? or more precisely in the bedroom where "Michael" "died" ? what time did Dr M arrive at the house that night of June 24th - wasn't it after MJ returned home from the rehearsals at the Staples Centre? how do we know the kids were really even staying there overnight that night? why was the security footage "coincidentally" erased?
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 04:43:21 AM
Yes- I know the DWD law requires that the patient must take the medication unassisted, but I am wondering does a doctor HAVE to be present when they do so - or can they do it whenever they decide without anyone else having to be there?
If a doctor, or in fact any other person, legally does NOT need to be present, then I do not see why they could not travel to another state if they were able and ingest the medication wherever and whenever they feel the time has come.
Do we know for a fact that there was even anyone present in the house that day/night of June 24th 2009? or more precisely in the bedroom where "Michael" "died" ? what time did Dr M arrive at the house that night of June 24th - wasn't it after MJ returned home from the rehearsals at the Staples Centre? how do we know the kids were really even staying there overnight that night? why was the security footage "coincidentally" be erased?
Adi, you brought up some good points, I'll have to search a bit to know the presence of any medical personnel during the patient's death, and also to know at what time Dr Murray drove into Carolwood.
But the point Bec had brought up was, one state's laws may not be applicable to the other states. DWD is only accepted in oregon and washington. And on the other hand, California law states it is illegal to assist or abet any suicide. I've been searching for information on patient's location at the time of death, but didn't find anything at the moment.
And another thing, if TS is right about DWD, then the CCTV footage of the patient consuming drug to die might have been erased/destroyed...
Post by: curls on November 24, 2012, 05:22:14 AM
Regarding this quote from TS, I guess we DO have to bear in mind that what WE consider the most likely, least risky, 'best' option may not be the one that MJ/FBI/whoever decided upon, no matter how complete and clear it may be to US.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 05:52:04 AM
"Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy."
Regarding this quote from TS, I guess we DO have to bear in mind that what WE consider the most likely, least risky, 'best' option may not be the one that MJ/FBI/whoever decided upon, no matter how complete and clear it may be to US.
that's true curls, the least risky may not be the best option. If the hoax has to be completed in the most successful way possible, then risk is something that should not be considered as a hurdle. The FBI and MJ might have come up with several alternatives to overcome the risk but removing/eliminating risk altogether is impossible.
All major undertakings involves risk. I think in this hoax, the last of all the risks would be the public acceptance. I still am unsure of how the public is going to perceive everything that has happened. Because I think most of them would be half-knowledged. And half-knowledge is dangerous. We believers have been investigating, searching and knowing for a REALLY long time. But how many of the non-fans would really look into this very information? And how many of them would believe the explanations being given, by Michael and his associates?
A person will believe something truly when the institution he's been believing proves to be false. And that's what the purpose of the hoax, IMO, is. Michael, with the help of FBI, will have to prove the present institutions as 'false' and 'misleading' to gain public's belief.
TS's post does make a LOT of sense, if we ignore certain factors (which we can't). The reason why the death certificate did not have the mention of the terminal illness is quite questionable. But i thought of something.
Isn't it possible that there was another death certificate (the truly original) published with all the necessary requirements mentioned in the Law of Death With Dignity? Whatever death certificate we are exposed to might be the fake... (wasn't the death certificate signed by LaToya ? and not by any doctor?)
And this pretty much explains the private burial/ceremony that was held on July 6th, 2009 [ link: http://x17video.com/celebrity_video/michael_jackson/x17_xclusive_aerial_video_of_j.php (http://x17video.com/celebrity_video/michael_jackson/x17_xclusive_aerial_video_of_j.php) ]
and then the fake burial was held on September 3, 2009 with the Liberian Girl Theme... and this might also explain the 'alleged victim' in the verdict
But i'm STILL not sure that whether a person is allowed to die in California despite the legal approval of DWD act by Washington...
Post by: Adi on November 24, 2012, 06:16:31 AM
Yes- I know the DWD law requires that the patient must take the medication unassisted, but I am wondering does a doctor HAVE to be present when they do so[/u] - or can they do it whenever they decide without anyone else having to be there?
If a doctor, or in fact any other person, legally does NOT need to be present, then I do not see why they could not travel to another state if they were able and ingest the medication wherever and whenever they feel the time has come.
I think I just found an answer to my own question:
2009 Death with Dignity ACT Report http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2009.pdf on page 9:
Circumstances when medication ingested
Health-care provider present: Number %
Prescribing physician 3 8
Other provider, prescribing physician not present 17 47
No provider 12 34
Unknown 4 11
Once a DWD patient is prescribed the medication - according to these statistics from 2009 - there were quite a few cases when there was no provider present (also an unknown number) when the medication was ingested. I take from this it is not a legal requirement for anyone to be present, including the prescribing physician. So in theory a person could leave the state of Washington or Oregon (if they were able) without the doctor being aware once they have been provided the medication.
Also this from the wiki page on DWD:
Quote
The attending physician may sign the patient's death certificate which must list the underlying terminal disease as the cause of death
May sign the death certificate .... not must.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 06:26:09 AM
which makes me think of the possibility of another authentic death certificate, for the patient...
Post by: ellyd on November 24, 2012, 07:00:56 AM
And this pretty much explains the private burial/ceremony that was held on June 6th, 2009 [ link: http://x17video.com/celebrity_video/michael_jackson/x17_xclusive_aerial_video_of_j.php (http://x17video.com/celebrity_video/michael_jackson/x17_xclusive_aerial_video_of_j.php) ]
Thanks for bringing this up again.
The title to the video says:
Quote
X17 XCLUSIVE!!! Aerial Video Of Jackson Family Arriving At Private Ceremony
Which Jackson family was it? MJ's?
1990 census revealed that 666,125 persons with the surname Jackson were living in the U.S., making "Jackson" #18 in a ranking of the most popular surnames.
http://names.mongabay.com/data/1000.html (http://names.mongabay.com/data/1000.html)
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 07:03:51 AM
And this pretty much explains the private burial/ceremony that was held on June 6th, 2009 [ link: http://x17video.com/celebrity_video/michael_jackson/x17_xclusive_aerial_video_of_j.php (http://x17video.com/celebrity_video/michael_jackson/x17_xclusive_aerial_video_of_j.php) ]
Thanks for bringing this up again.
The title to the video says:QuoteX17 XCLUSIVE!!! Aerial Video Of Jackson Family Arriving At Private Ceremony
Which Jackson family was it? MJ's?
1990 census revealed that 666,125 persons with the surname Jackson were living in the U.S., making "Jackson" #18 in a ranking of the most popular surnames.
http://names.mongabay.com/data/1000.html (http://names.mongabay.com/data/1000.html)
if you look at the tags of the video, you'll know it is Michael Jackson's family :
(http://grabilla.com/02b18-8ce522b7-fb60-4032-a2e2-c00ef106bdc4.png) (http://grabilla.com/02b18-8ce522b7-fb60-4032-a2e2-c00ef106bdc4.html)
Post by: Adi on November 24, 2012, 07:20:43 AM
@Adi - the wiki page did say 'may" but the certificate "must" have a mention of terminal disease..
which makes me think of the possibility of another authentic death certificate, for the patient...
I agree that there must be a legitimate DC listing the terminal illness as the cause of death for a patient who died a DWD patient. However, my point is that in the documents I have been reading relating to DWD, nowhere does it state that the prescribing doctor MUST be present during ingestion (the statistics in the link I provided above support this) and that the use of "may sign the Death Certificate" indicates that it is not a legal requirement that they do sign it or in fact need to be present whilst the patient ingests. So once the patient has the medication physically in their hands what is to stop them from crossing a state border to ingest it elsewhere if they themselves are the sole person responsible for the administration of it?
About that funeral on the same day as the Memorial - I raised that video a few days ago - http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429532.html#msg429532 about half way through to the end of it might be Michael Jackson's family I think - hard to tell from that height - but the beginning around the green marquee looks like someone else's completely.....but again it's hard to tell from the height it was being filmed.
Peace out - I can't discuss terminally ill patients and dying anymore for today. I know what I believe and I am comfortable with it. However it's raised some pretty raw emotions for me and I am drained so I have to stop for while now.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 07:38:12 AM
i understand your point Adi, you are saying that if death is in their hands, they must also have the right to take at any place they want to.@Adi - the wiki page did say 'may" but the certificate "must" have a mention of terminal disease..
which makes me think of the possibility of another authentic death certificate, for the patient...
I agree that there must be a legitimate DC listing the terminal illness as the cause of death for a patient who died a DWD patient. However, my point is that in the documents I have been reading relating to DWD, nowhere does it state that the prescribing doctor MUST be present during ingestion (the statistics in the link I provided above support this) and that the use of "may sign the Death Certificate" indicates that it is not a legal requirement that they do sign it or in fact need to be present whilst the patient ingests. So once the patient has the medication physically in their hands what is to stop them from crossing a state border to ingest it elsewhere if they themselves are the sole person responsible for the administration of it?
About that funeral on the same day as the Memorial - I raised that video a few days ago - http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429532.html#msg429532 about half way through to the end of it might be Michael Jackson's family I think - hard to tell from that height - but the beginning around the green marquee looks like someone else's completely.....but again it's hard to tell from the height it was being filmed.
Peace out - I can't discuss terminally ill patients and dying anymore for today. I know what I believe and I am comfortable with it. However it's raised some pretty raw emotions for me and I am drained so I have to stop for while now.
But what I am saying is that the California Laws does not accept suicides, and as DWD is not present in CA, this particular act might be considered as some form of suicide.
Anyways, we still do need confirmation whether the DWD Act of Washington covers this aspect, that whether a patient can administer drugs even though he is not present in the state.
I searched for that info but didn't find it anywhere...Maybe TS could give us the confirmation...
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 24, 2012, 07:46:53 AM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 24, 2012, 08:33:45 AM
Sometimes it is really a pity that links are not clicked and read when they are provided. We found that hospice subject so early.
I completely agree that it is a pity and unfortunately happens quite often. And yes, the hospice/corpse theory is not 'new'...many researched this possibility long ago and could not write it off (i.e. there's never been solid proof showing it's NOT what happened).
Also, I'm not sure why/how people are now using the autopsy report and/or death certificate as 'proof' against the hospice theory. Among the many things we've learned throughout this whole thing, one has been that documents can, and have been, altered/manipulated/doctored/falsified/etc....including legal documents. It should be obvious that if Mike is alive...both the autopsy report and the death certificate are 'fake', regardless of whether a dummy or corpse was used. If either of these documents is now gonna used to try to 'discredit' the corpse/hospice theory (and I don't understand the logic behind that)....I don't see how either document can be used to support the dummy theory, as some are claiming now.
I do believe there is a real death certificate out there if a DWD patient died 'that day' (there are guidelines/laws in the DWD Act that address that)...and maybe an autopsy report (however, this may not have even been necessary, requested, or required if it was a DWD patient that died).
@Adi...based on what I've also read, the prescribing doctor does not need to be there at the time of ingestion, nor is any doctor required to be there (although it is recommended). There are some 'Death with Dignity' forms at this link which address this https://public.health.oregon.gov/PROVIDERPARTNERRESOURCES/EVALUATIONRESEARCH/DEATHWITHDIGNITYACT/Pages/pasforms.aspx (https://public.health.oregon.gov/PROVIDERPARTNERRESOURCES/EVALUATIONRESEARCH/DEATHWITHDIGNITYACT/Pages/pasforms.aspx). See 'Reporting Physician Interview Form' which also lists several options as to where the patient ingested the 'lethal dose' and one of the options is 'private residence'.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: ellyd on November 24, 2012, 10:04:31 AM
Does not mean this is right.
The video does not give any evidence but blurry pictures only. Those "I'll write anything for $$$" and paps were high on adrenaline in those days, trying to catch whatever they could and making something out of anything. Not to forget that they were fed and directed in addition, however without realizing this fact.
Post by: bec on November 24, 2012, 10:35:21 AM
i understand your point Adi, you are saying that if death is in their hands, they must also have the right to take at any place they want to.@Adi - the wiki page did say 'may" but the certificate "must" have a mention of terminal disease..
which makes me think of the possibility of another authentic death certificate, for the patient...
I agree that there must be a legitimate DC listing the terminal illness as the cause of death for a patient who died a DWD patient. However, my point is that in the documents I have been reading relating to DWD, nowhere does it state that the prescribing doctor MUST be present during ingestion (the statistics in the link I provided above support this) and that the use of "may sign the Death Certificate" indicates that it is not a legal requirement that they do sign it or in fact need to be present whilst the patient ingests. So once the patient has the medication physically in their hands what is to stop them from crossing a state border to ingest it elsewhere if they themselves are the sole person responsible for the administration of it?
About that funeral on the same day as the Memorial - I raised that video a few days ago - http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429532.html#msg429532 about half way through to the end of it might be Michael Jackson's family I think - hard to tell from that height - but the beginning around the green marquee looks like someone else's completely.....but again it's hard to tell from the height it was being filmed.
Peace out - I can't discuss terminally ill patients and dying anymore for today. I know what I believe and I am comfortable with it. However it's raised some pretty raw emotions for me and I am drained so I have to stop for while now.
But what I am saying is that the California Laws does not accept suicides, and as DWD is not present in CA, this particular act might be considered as some form of suicide.
Anyways, we still do need confirmation whether the DWD Act of Washington covers this aspect, that whether a patient can administer drugs even though he is not present in the state.
I searched for that info but didn't find it anywhere...Maybe TS could give us the confirmation...
No we don't really because under California law, anyone who was with the patient at the time the patient took the medication would be subject to arrest and prosecution for murder.
Speaking of clicking links, that CA law regarding nurse assisted suicide is completely non-applicable to this topic. It covers removal of feeding tubes/cessation of life saving procedures, NOT ingestion of euthanasia drugs. These are 2 completely different species, one doesn't even come close to describing the other.
Side note: people are bringing up the autopsy and DC as proof against the corpse theory because if a person really died, then it was to FOOL someone, that must be the motive, and it becomes a linear theory. If someone is being fooled, that means they accept that the patient was MJ and forms would be filled out, in their mind anyway, accurately. You can't have it both ways. If a real person died, it was to fool emergency workers and therefore their statements/documents they signed off on must be real. If emergency workers are NOT in on it, and therefore statements/documents are fake, a real body is NOT needed.
Like Dr. Cooper for example. If she actually believed this person was MJ, and therefore isn't in on it, then her testimony/statements ought to be considered accurate. Therefore, they DID restart this person's heart for a time. After taking a suicide pill? Really?? I don't think so...
Besides, we have an alleged victim... not a victim who was allegedly Michael Jackson. What TS is describing is not an alleged victim, it is a confirmed victim. Someone REALLY died in his scenario.
Post by: bec on November 24, 2012, 10:49:27 AM
The only thing is-- I felt a certain level of dismay as I read it. I'm thinking that if we here in hoaxland, who love MJ, you TS and those involved in helping this project, are feeling sickened by the thought of using the very unfortunate person dying and likely in pain to end his life on hoax-death-day-- then what horrible thoughts will the rest of the fans or general public think of this usage. They will most certainly call MJ a murderer and monster, and speculate that if he could do that to a poor dying man, then could he have done other things questionable as well. Given the 2 accusations and trial, it makes it doubly tricky.
And then there's this. This cannot be discounted, evidence that stands up in a court of law or not... if you're talking about public perception... MJ was found NOT GUILTY in a court of law. Whole lot of good that did him in the court of public opinion, YOU KNOW?
Besides, one has to consider the country in which the hoax is occurring, and the culture within that country. Americans are NOT ok with the whole euthanasia scenario. We Americans, as a demographic, get super weirded out about the whole thing, spurring heated controversy and strong feelings on both sides of the debate. It's a huge disaster of public opinion, to go down this road, it would be a massive PR hurdle to negotiate. And again... why? To satisfy what purpose? To fool WHO?
I call BS on the whole thing.
Abortion Papers (aka Song Groove)
Those abortion papers,
Signing your name against the word of God,
Those abortion papers,
Think about LIFE,
I'd like to have a child.
TS, you want us to believe that MJ went along with an assisted suicide in order to launch his creative vision? This man who is God fearing and concerned with all life on Earth? Really? Isn't suicide explicitly against God's will?
Maybe TS is just shocking us into the next level of investigation. Last year he wanted 3 good reasons that would stand up in court against the body theory. I think we have offered about a dozen. Either that or maybe TS really IS just guessing himself and he's wrong. In which case, I guess we can kiss the bamsday deadline goodbye. See you all in 2013... :Crash:
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 24, 2012, 10:54:17 AM
TS hasn't convinced me either but there are a couple of things in your post Bec, that he'll pull you up for, so allow me to do it first!
From TS's post:
"It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. "
So could it be argued that this is a test case, using this loophole in OR and WA law, challenging CA law? Or, as ellyd has just posted, it is not an issue anyway, as the patient would still be covered by WA law.
Then you said:
"Besides, look at that list of qualifications paula posted. All those people the patient is required to consult and notify and counsel with and we are to accept that this is fewer people in on it then the ~10 we listed and their corresponding supervisors? No way."
As I understand it all those people are only required to set up a patient in the DWD program - not necessarily to follow them through to the end (hence the many listed 'unknowns', not only for 'place of death'). They would not have to be in on the hoax.
There are several bits of TS's post that don't have his usual trademark precision e.g. "Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California." ( That's a tad presumptive don't you think?); "So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program...." ('cooperated' - strange word to use IMO); "All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?" (So did the ambulance pic look like 2009 MJ?)
But ultimately he is asking us to believe that a whole bunch of professionals were in contact with a dead body that they simply assumed, or were told, was Michael Jackson - and not one of them took a really good look at the most scrutinised face of the last 30 odd years, and questioned the identity of their patient. And if they did they were either silenced by the FBI or told it was a decoy. Is that it?
I'm left asking WHY? IF this IS what happened I don't see how it can have been just about the procurement of a 'body' for 25th June realism purposes - the reasons why this wasn't necessary hoax-wise have been gone over many times by those of us who think this way, so IF it really did happen as TS is now implying, why?
Does this by TS give me my answer:
"Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy."
And I ask again, whose hoax is it anyway? Michael Jackson's or FBI's?
I'm not really sure about the answer for your question curls, but i think we got a hint of what our next step would/should be.
TS wants us to find 'evidence'... 'evidence' that would clearly tell us what went to UCLA
how are we supposed to find the evidence and from where?
Thriller4Ever, maybe you have the right idea. We could go around in circles for a while with no real evidence. We need actual evidence and records from ambulance,hospital,emergency room etc. I don't know how to get it either ? I remember something about a patient at the hospital named Soul Sean or something to that effect ? There were also stories at two hospitals (Sinai, and UCLA) on the news that day on June 25,2009. I think we should look back at that. I remember Joe Jackson talking about Seoul Sean years ago. MJ said on BAD25, "my father doesn't lie". Just ideas.
Post by: Andrea on November 24, 2012, 10:57:38 AM
Very true. And if someone really died, in TS' scenario, why would the date also be "alleged"?
Post by: bec on November 24, 2012, 10:58:17 AM
Thriller4Ever, maybe you have the right idea. We could go around in circles for a while with no real evidence. We need actual evidence and records from ambulance,hospital,emergency room etc. I don't know how to get it either ? I remember something about a patient at the hospital named Soul Sean or something to that effect ? There were also stories at two hospitals (Sinai, and UCLA) on the news that day on June 25,2009. I think we should look back at that. I remember Joe Jackson talking about Seoul Sean years ago. MJ said on BAD25, "my father doesn't lie". Just ideas.
Thanks to HIPAA laws, that information is unattainable to us.
Post by: bec on November 24, 2012, 10:59:20 AM
bec: Besides, we have an alleged victim... not a victim who was allegedly Michael Jackson. What TS is describing is not an alleged victim, it is a confirmed victim. Someone REALLY died in his scenario.
Very true. And if someone really died, in TS' scenario, why would the date also be "alleged"?
It would not be. The date would be confirmed. Someone REALLY died on that date.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 11:07:58 AM
We all are well aware of the fact that Michael is God Fearing, would never support the idea of suicide and, as per the song, also abortions. But aren't we limiting the capacity of the man with our assumptions. If Michael is taking the pains to do all this planning, set-up this hoax, decide to go against the institutions, all for the public (which also includes his haters), wouldn't there be a point of sacrifice...and Michael isn't telling someone to die, rather he's only making a person go down in 'history', a part of the greatest demonstration of freedom. He's only appointed a person, who 'really' wants to die, into the hoax...not for his purpose, but 'our purposes'.
I think when need really arises, a person has to set aside the emotional factor to some extent and think practically what will be better...Michael always and always emphasized on healing the world...this is all a part towards the betterment.
I firmly believe that this hoax is not for Michael's personal gains...maybe in the process, he might gain public confidence, but there's just more to the story...
Post by: BeTheChange on November 24, 2012, 11:13:04 AM
I'm still not understanding the logic of using the autopsy or DC as proof of anything. By this reasoning...in support of a dummy having been used, then anyone who filled out the forms would've had to be in on it obviously, since there would've been no body. Conclusion: the documents would be fake. Likewise, anyone who came in contact with the dummy, including Dr. Cooper, would also have to be in on it...therefore, any and all testimony and documents would've had to be 'fake', since there would've been no real body that was worked on.
We are just assuming 'who', if anyone, that saw and/or worked the 'body' had to be fooled...we don't know that this is, in fact, true (i.e. that someone had to be fooled that actually saw the 'body'). For all we know, those that saw the body were in on it....and the purpose of using it was to cover any possible unexpected people seeing the body. As TS pointed out...but it seems to not be taken into account by some...IF a dummy was used and someone who was NOT in on it showed up and saw the dummy...how would it be explained away as it being just a distraction? That would mean that MJ just happened to have a dummy on hand in case he died on June 25th? I don't think that would fly...not at UCLA and most definitely NOT at Carolwood. In a supposed emergency situation...when seconds matter and when MJ is supposedly near death...how would a dummy be explained away if someone not in the know saw it? Instead of looking after Mike, they moved his real body to another room in the house, went and found a dummy that just so happened to be there, put the dummy in Mike's bed and actually pretended to work on it? That makes no sense in trying to keep it as real as possible nor does it fulfill covering all bases in case something/someone unexpected happened to show up.
As for the 'legalities' of a DWD patient choosing to take the 'lethal dose' somewhere other than OR or WA, I can't find anything in the DWD Act that explicitly states that this is NOT legal (I think it was Adi who suggested this may be a loophole in the law itself)...so the argument about it being murder and/or illegal if it occurred in CA may very well be a non-issue.
I still have some questions/things I'm unsure of as far as the hospice theory goes...but I have been and remain open to it, perhaps because I, personally, don't see a terminally ill person choosing how, where and when they are going to die, as 'murder' or 'assisted suicide' or 'suicide' or any other negative connotation. I'm actually surprised that a country that has elected a 'pro-choice' government back-to-back doesn't have more states with DWD, considering the beliefs underlying both are very similar.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on November 24, 2012, 11:25:34 AM
@BTC, under California law, in TS's scenario, the patient committing suicide IS a victim... of murder.
Also, our personal feelings are irrelevant, right? California law is what's relevant and it states that assisted suicide (legal wording, not mine) occurring within the state is considered murder. That's the law. And the FBI has to work within the law, even while catching bad guys. They HAVE to. If they don't, the prosecution of said bad guy goes up in smoke, bad guy is off the hook, mistrial.
Also, realistically, who's going to come into contact with the body who isn't supposed to? The stretcher is surrounded by body guards and doors have LOCKS.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 11:43:49 AM
and according to my thinking, this cancels the DWD theory...
:Pulling_hair:
Post by: BeTheChange on November 24, 2012, 11:49:20 AM
And the FBI has to work within the law, even while catching bad guys. They HAVE to. If they don't, the prosecution of said bad guy goes up in smoke, bad guy is off the hook, mistrial.
This is simply not true.
From Wiki:
Quote
Sting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment. Law-enforcement may have to be careful not to provoke the commission of a crime by someone who would not otherwise have done so. Additionally, in the process of such operations, the police often engage in the same crimes, such as buying or selling contraband, soliciting prostitutes, etc. In common law jurisdictions, the defendant may invoke the defense of entrapment.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation)
Yes, sting operations are 'tricky' because of the entrapment issue potentially used as a defense...but I'd think that the FBI has been around the block a few times in these situations.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 24, 2012, 11:51:44 AM
The court case was obviously not about the “death", but about the "circumstances surrounding the death” by doctor assisted drug overdose in an unauthorized/unequipped setting. The testimony given in court appeared more about proving or disproving how ethically the procedure was handled. It was never asserted that no one died, but why and by what means.
Seems to me that Murray was relying on testimony to show that he was following the patient’s wishes when he kept insisting that the patient injected and/or ingested himself while he was out of the room. I also believe that Murray believed he would be exonerated at trial - the reason he wasn’t interested in a plea bargain had he been able to testify on his own behalf and expound on the premise that he did not do anything the patient didn’t want him to do . So bit by bit the DWD piece is looking more plausible. Still watching though. But this is very interesting and apparently an important piece of the puzzle. However, I am still a little reluctant to accept this theory entirely based on the info I posted earlier where it states explicitly that to carry this out in California is against the law, a felony. I’ll keep researching that one.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 24, 2012, 12:02:55 PM
2. FBI does not stage hoax abusing DWD law.
3. Hospice patient from WA died at Carolwood CA according to DWD law has NO logical connection to death hoax that will clear MJ's name.
4. Murray was tried for negligently killing patient aka involuntary manslaughter, has no dots to DWD.
5.Michael took lethal dose of propofol statement by defense has nothing to do with DWD.
Post by: bec on November 24, 2012, 12:13:25 PM
And the FBI has to work within the law, even while catching bad guys. They HAVE to. If they don't, the prosecution of said bad guy goes up in smoke, bad guy is off the hook, mistrial.
This is simply not true.
From Wiki:QuoteSting operations are fraught with ethical concerns over whether they constitute entrapment. Law-enforcement may have to be careful not to provoke the commission of a crime by someone who would not otherwise have done so. Additionally, in the process of such operations, the police often engage in the same crimes, such as buying or selling contraband, soliciting prostitutes, etc. In common law jurisdictions, the defendant may invoke the defense of entrapment.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_operation)
Yes, sting operations are 'tricky' because of the entrapment issue potentially used as a defense...but I'd think that the FBI has been around the block a few times in these situations.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Read it again.
"the police often engage in the same crimes,"
So you believe the FBI was trying to catch a murderer by murdering someone else? I respectfully believe that makes no sense at all.
The FBI can't go around murdering people in the United States of America. In any case it is considered murder in and by the state of California. State of California says this person would be a victim very clearly, not at all an alleged victim.
What does murder have to do with MJ? A major goal of this hoax, says Front and says back, is to remove the stain caused by the false allegations of 1993 and 2005. How is MJ being involved in someone's murder going to vindicate him of child molestation allegations?
Post by: bec on November 24, 2012, 12:19:39 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 24, 2012, 12:28:50 PM
If a real body was being used to fool paramedics then a genuine 911 call would be needed, to get a response from paramedics who have no idea what they’re about to encounter. So then Alberto would dial 911, from an entirely different location mind you, precisely at 12:21. He doesn’t name the patient – that argument could go either way with the dummy or corpse scenario. The 911 call doesn’t follow normal 911 protocol and didn’t hit the scanners so it seems very likely that the call wasn’t real, that it was staged and recorded for the purpose of the hoax. Again, if you have a real body to fool paramedics, they’re not going to know to go to Carolwood if a fake call is placed. You can’t have only one paramedic in on it, let’s say Senneff, in this scenario because the rest of the team would still need to think they’re responding to a genuine emergency via a real 911 call.
The paramedics then work on MJ unsuccessfully for 42 minutes (wiki), there’s THAT number again, Murray refuses to call the death so they bring the body down to the ambulance where it backs out of the drive way in super slow motion to allow for the infamous ambulance photo to be taken. Even the though the photo was fake, there had to be an opportunity for it to apparently be taken. If there was a real body and a real 911 call placed to get the clueless paramedics there and the call hit the scanners and more paps/lookie loos showed up to see what was going on, the ambulance could’ve turned around on the Carolwood property (as per the roundabout behind the gates) and left the property much quicker. There wouldn’t be a need for the ambulance to stop (camera snap snap) when going from reverse to drive, it would just drive straight out, sirens wailing and lights flashing so people would get out of the way quickly. But the need for the ambulance photo opportunity had to be there – which shows the ambulance driver’s compliance for that.
The ambulance gets to UCLA at about 1:14 pm and the stretcher is wheeled in, completely surrounded and the fire alarm is pulled and people start streaming outside. TMZ is now reporting that MJ has gone into cardiac arrest, saying “it’s looking bad" and a family member tells them MJ is “in really bad shape”. The doctors then work on the body for over an hour, possibly reviving the body, then death is pronounced at 2:26 pm. Meanwhile, it’s absolute chaos on the hospital grounds with crowds of people screaming for Michael to be saved. UCLA has no part whatsoever in announcing the death. Normally the attending physician would make the announcement but UCLA’s silence hints at their compliance as well their not signing a death certificate. A second death certificate and autopsy report for a real patient is pure speculation with absolutely no evidence to support that. And we all know the body wasn’t properly identified and autopsy report reflected that the person who died was MJ himself and not someone else, then it was finalized on a hoaxy date, 9/9/09, coincidentally enough. Not to mention the 'dead' body photos used in the trial show someone who definitely looks like Michael.
I do understand the DWD info and reasons but every step of the way shows, to me, that the people who came into contact with what was on the stretcher, (from outside agencies – paramedics, doctors, coroner) were in on it. If the FBI HAD to use a real dead body, then we are missing a huge part of the story as to WHY it was necessary. Going with the evidence we DO have, a corpse still doesn't make sense to me.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 24, 2012, 12:55:27 PM
Post by: Sarahli on November 24, 2012, 01:30:17 PM
Here is a description of what it is not about, it can help better understand and maybe make it less alarming:
Quote
What it's not:http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/05/just-what-are-death-dignity-laws-anyway
Assisted Suicide is a term used by opponents to scare people. Assisted suicide more accurately refers to criminals like this guy. "Suicide" is also inaccurate. A terminally ill patient making a request under the Oregon or Washington law is doing so to hasten an already inevitable and imminent death; therefore, the act cannot properly be equated with "suicide". None of the moral, existential, or religious connotations of "suicide" apply when the patient's primary objective is not to end an otherwise open-ended span of life but to find dignity in an already impending exit from this world. Individuals who use the law may be offended by the use of "assisted suicide," because they are participating in an act to shorten the agony of their final hours, not killing themselves. It's cancer (or other underlying condition) which is killing them.
Euthanasia often refers to the act of painlessly but deliberately causing the death of another who is suffering from an incurable, painful disease or condition. It's commonly thought of as lethal injection.
TS also stated that it would be the FBI’s requirement, so I understand that probably there wasn’t a wide room for choices for Michael if he wanted the FBI to help him. They maybe could have refused to go along with the hoax if this wasn’t included.
Again as said before the OR and WA law doesn’t specifically say where the patient must be located while ingesting the drugs. The only requirement that is specifically mentioned is that the patient must be a resident from one of these 2 states. The rest remains open to possibilities as we cannot disprove the possibility that this law covers the patient wherever he is located at the moment he decides to ingest the medication. The CA law doesn’t specifically say that a DWD patient from OR or WA cannot ingest his medication in CA. Maybe someone from the USA should give a call to one of these organizations and see what they have to say about this?
Quote from: BeTheChange
The 'alleged' victim statement followed the charge of manslaughter...so it would be accurate IF a DWD patient was involved because 1) they were not a victim of manslaughter, and 2) they weren't a victim of anything under DWD since that is a self-made choice.
I agree there is no victim.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 24, 2012, 01:31:25 PM
Andrea:
Quote
If the FBI HAD to use a real dead body, then we are missing a huge part of the story as to WHY it was necessary.
I agree...there are still several pieces missing in order for the hospice theory to make complete sense. Perhaps, and hopefully, 7c will shed light on that.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 24, 2012, 01:43:55 PM
And again, the million $$ question, who is this alleged real dead person supposed to be fooling? Because this theory needs a linear progression so let's go there.
Bec, you said "alleged real dead person". There's also the "alleged victim". So maybe there's no victim because there is no murder,manslaughter or suicide at the house or in the ambulance. If a DWD patient was used, maybe it wasn't at the house or the ambulance ? Maybe the DWD patient was at the hospital ? IDK. Just thoughts.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 24, 2012, 02:37:53 PM
I was floored while reading the long post by TS!
It's the first time I feel the mystery of "that day" starts getting unveiled...slowly... but surely!
I agree with @mj4ever777: we will never know what/how/where/when the "magic trick" was done "that day" , until TS and/or Michael explain everything step by step! Can't wait!! :icon_bounce:
Post by: mindseye on November 24, 2012, 03:59:23 PM
@Bec, I really don't believe that this hoax is just a "creative vision"... I don't think the purpose of the hoax is ONLY to better his image in the public...there is more to the story. I think it's a question of justice, not for his own personal benefits but for OUR benefits.
I agree Thriller, and I believe it's much more complicated than for an artistic purpose and to clear his image. So many pieces of the puzzle are missing.
TS
Quote
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Whatever they decided it was a successful illusion and legal...in order to carry out a sting operation.
All for - Justice.
So TS is pointing to DWD not dummy, I agree Bec... it wouldn't make sense at all.
Quote
So you believe the FBI was trying to catch a murderer by murdering someone else? I respectfully believe that makes no sense at all.
The FBI can't go around murdering people in the United States of America. In any case it is considered murder in and by the state of California. State of California says this person would be a victim very clearly, not at all an alleged victim.
In the article about the nurse assisted suicide “palliative sedation” was another option. So maybe that's why the use of propofol with a doctor present.
This reminded me of BACK's last post about Conrad Murray to Avoid Murder Charge?
Quote
Etch it to stone.......They will face accountability!
Perhaps the FEDs will feel so inclined to lend the LAPD another one of its "hands" in a matter that actually warrants it.
perhaps.......
Post by: Sarahli on November 24, 2012, 04:04:27 PM
To be more specific: if it’s hoax court, then there would be little if any need to use a corpse; but if it is sting court, then the corpse theory has a strong case. This would not only reduce the people who would need to be in on it, but it would also allow witnesses to testify truthfully in real court under oath (both witnesses who are in on it, and those who are not).http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18964.0.html
So maybe that's the point? And in trying to keep things as real as possible, because if the whole court was involved then the word would have spread easily lol, so only a few key people needed to know. Most probably the trial served different purposes. It could be there as a way to show Michael's enemies that he really died (at least some of them) and certain things could be investigated behind the scenes. Of course we can't dismiss the high probabilty that they figured out it was a hoax that's why I think this trial must have served several purposes in regards to the sting. It's difficult to really know as we don't have information about the sting real targets, we can only speculate, therefore it shouldn't be a reason to dismiss the real body theory because of lack of information.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 24, 2012, 04:34:15 PM
It is the terminally ill patient who is prescribed the medication.
This terminally ill patient is the one who ultimately decides to administer it to themselves. A doctor or other health practitioner does not hold them down and force it down their throats.
After satifying the laws pertaining to DWD in either Oregon or Washington, once the patient has the medication in their possession, in theory could they travel wherever they want within the borders of he USA with the medication in their checked luggage or even just by road transport? could they go to a hotel in Las Vegas/California/any other state within the USA and administer it to themselves with no other person knowing or being present? or DOES a doctor have to be present when the patient decides to take the medication?
Does any one else need to be there?
I presume, just as in Australia, people in the USA are able to transport medication for personal use which has been legitimately prescribed in a different state - such as sleeping pills/anti-depressants/pain killers/insulin - over state borders to another state ? Once a DWD patient is in possession of the medication to end their life - what would stop them going to another state (if they were able and had the means) and doing this all alone if they are solely responsible for the administration of the "fatal dose"? They are not travelling to a different country nor are they transporting illegal drugs such as cocaine or heroine.
Just a thought anyway.
Adi you just said what I wanted to post.
My theory is that if a terminally ill person was used for real then according to the DWD law that person could have gotten the lethal medication in Oregon or Washington bring it in his pocket (as Adi has said) and take it by himself in L.A that would be totally legal, check out the document below:
Death with Dignity in Oregon, Washington & (soon to be) Montana
The US has a spotted history of law reform on voluntary euthanasia and physician-assisted dying. Since the 2008 Presidential election, there are now two states with Death with Dignity laws - Oregon and Washington.
Oregon was the first state to pass a Death With Dignity (DWD) Act which it did in 1994 after a Citizen Initiated Referendum. However, this law was not finally implemented until 27 October 1997. (In the intervening period, the Act was subject to legal challenge which prevented it being used; this is why the Northern Territory was the first place in the world to experience VE legislation.)
These Death With Dignity Acts allow people who are terminally and/or hopelessly ill to ask their doctors for lethal medication. Patients must make two verbal requests and one written request that is fully witnessed. Two doctors must agree on the patient’s ‘diagnosis, prognosis and the patient's capability’. The patient must administer the lethal medication themselves.
The Oregon and Washington laws explicitly prohibit euthanasia, which is defined as involving someone other than the patient administering the medication. The DWD legislation is reported on annually; in Oregon by the Department of Human Services.
The sixth Oregon review was released in early 2004, revealing that forty-two people used the DWD law in 2003. The law is reported as having had no effect on the overall death rate in that state.
‘Loss of autonomy’, ‘a diminished ability to participate in activities that make life enjoyable’, and ‘loss of dignity’ were the three most frequently cited end-of-life concerns by those who used the law. It is ironic that the Oregon Act passed into law in the same year that the ROTI Act was overturned.
The Washington law can be found HERE.
Breaking News - Dec '09
On 31 December 2009, the New York Times reported that the Montana Supreme Court has said that nothing in state law prevents patients from seeking physician-assisted suicide. This will make Montana the third state that will allow the procedure as soon as the legislature acts.
http://www.exitinternational.net/page/USA
Nevertheless we have to distinguish between DWD or PAD and EUTHANASIA what entails the physician or another third party administering the medication so I think in this case the administered medication by a physician has to be in Oregon or Washington so the terminally ill person wouldn't be able to receive his meds outside his place of resident .
To be honest I would like to say that I don't buy that a DWD or PAD was used in this hoax either but a dummy, Annie are you ok are you ok Annie? :icon_lol:, check out wikipedia below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_the_United_States
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 24, 2012, 05:01:34 PM
Quote
No we don't really because under California law, anyone who was with the patient at the time the patient took the medication would be subject to arrest and prosecution for murder.No Bec because nobody administered him the lethal med, remember CM was hanging with a telephone call so in that very moment the terminally ill person could have taken the pill, that's why CM during the trial was insinuating that Michael self administered the propofol lethal dose.
Post by: Jos on November 24, 2012, 05:06:51 PM
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 24, 2012, 05:20:01 PM
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 24, 2012, 05:33:09 PM
Post by: Sarahli on November 24, 2012, 05:37:33 PM
I think I said this about 2 or 3 pages ago :icon_e_confused:
Don't worry Hesouttamylife, nothing in this thread that hasn't been repeated over and over again! :icon_lol:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_E2GBHKCV--o/SbBNbL5LHRI/AAAAAAAAAKY/7saGxx1a3Gg/s320/ist2_5483484-lost-in-labyrinth-xxl.jpg)
This is us^^! :thjajaja121:
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 24, 2012, 06:10:08 PM
Bec:I agree, especially because of all the emphasis put on Murray being out of the room when Michael died (in the bathroom, on the phone with his girlfriends). The official story is that Michael was still alive when Murray left the room, Michael self-administered the drug to himself (according to Murray, who is probably the only one there that day who we can all agree is 'in on it'), and then Murray came back and found him not breathing. This would fit with the DWD theory in that the patient self-administered the fatal dose alone. Therefore this would not qualify as assisted suicide because there was nobody in the room to assist.QuoteNo we don't really because under California law, anyone who was with the patient at the time the patient took the medication would be subject to arrest and prosecution for murder.No Bec because nobody administered him the lethal med, remember CM was hanging with a telephone call so in that very moment the terminally ill person could have taken the pill, that's why CM during the trial was insinuating that Michael self administered the propofol lethal dose.
Post by: paula-c on November 24, 2012, 07:14:00 PM
Quote
Anatomization of the Living Dead: Part 4
This part contains yet the most shocking & inconsistent information & is strong proof that Mr. Michael Joe Jackson did not participate in this clinical study!!!
Case Report: Page 16
Cardiovascular System:
1- The arteries are normal; there are no abnormalities or blockage along the aorta.
2- The heart is normal & weighs 290 grams [this is a perfect weight for heart & means that it was in great shape]
3- All the heart chambers & its connecting blood vessels are in perfect shape
Respiratory System:
1.- Minimal secretions are found in the upper respiratory passages (i.e. nose, oral cavity, chamber below the throat & the voice box)[this means that at the time of death the deceased was not suffering from any infections in his upper respiratory passages]
2- The lining of the area known as the voice box has suffered some bruising & undersurface bleeding. [This might have been cause by the ETT being pushed down the throat.]
3- An abnormal respiratory noise can be heard from the lungs. [the coroner tries inflating & deflating the lungs to see if the deceased was suffering any lung conditions. In this case it seems that the deceased was suffering from a long condition due to the abnormal noise made by the lungs, further analysis is done which will be discussed later]
4- There is congestion is the lungs
5- It is mentioned that the left lung weighs 1060 grams & the right lung weighs 940 grams.
[This is one of the most bizarre statements made in this autopsy report. In all humans the right lung weighs more than the left lung, simply due to the position of human heart, which is in most humans on the left side. In few cases which are very rare, some people have their heart on their right side as opposed to the left side & hence their left lung weighs more than the right one. But there’s no mention of it on the cardiovascular analysis of the report nor anywhere else on the autopsy report that his heart was on his right side. So I don’t know really how to justify this outrageous statement by the coroner]
6- The thin tissue that covers the lungs looks normal & smooth & its veins are without clotting.
Case Report: Page 17
Gastrointestinal System:
1- The gullet (food tube) is intact throughout.
2- There is no swelling in the stomach [this is sign that there was no drug abuse, as people who abuse drugs usually suffer from distended stomach syndrome]
3- It is mentioned that the stomach contains 70 grams of dark fluid [alright why this fluid hasn’t been analyzed? What good is an autopsy if they’re going to live substances unknown & unanalyzed?!]
5- No tablet or capsule portions are seen in the stomach contents [very interesting comment, this can help to establish a timeline, considering the average time each medication’s metabolism takes, why wasn't further analysis done! If the timeline given by Murray is correct there must be some trace of medications in the stomach content especially considering the rumors that have been floating around about Michael being an addict. Considering the timeline given by Murray & the time of death there must be some trace in the stomach content, unless the body has been metabolizing after death!!! ]
6- Both the small intestine & the colon look good & normal inside & out.
7- After cutting open both the small intestine & colon a 2mm polyp (the kind that is attached to the tissue like a skin tag) is seen close to the rectum area. The polyp is pink in color, which means it’s not of a dangerous type.
8- The appendix is present.
9- Everything about the pancreas looks normal
Urinary System:
1- Left kidney weighs 120 grams & right kidney weighs 140 grams. [Although the numbers are well within the normal range, the issue is that in humans the left kidney is slightly bigger & heavier than the right kidney, here again we see a different pattern. Seems like the person who wrote this report had their left & right confused!]
Genital System:
1- The prostate is moderately enlarged but aside from that there are no abnormalities. This moderate enlargement is not dangerous.
Case Report: Page 18
Hemolymphatic System:
1- The lymph nodes in body are all small & normal [being small is a very good sign; it means that the body didn’t have any autoimmune problem. This is another bizarre statement by the coroner. It is a well known fact that Michael was suffering from Lupus. Lupus is an autoimmune disease. In Lupus the lymph nodes are enlarged because they have become over active.Therefore we can conclude that this body belongs to someone who wasn't suffering from any autoimmune disease. Stay tuned for my post on Lupus & Michael Jackson.]
Endocrine System:
1.- The Thymus is not identified. [this report gets bizarre page by page, apparently the coroner was not able to find the thymus, so the dead body is missing his thymus. The thymus is a specialized organ of the immune system. In lupus patients the whole immune system becomes over active attacking the body’s tissues & organs. However in HIV AIDS patients the thymus will be damaged to the point that it cannot be identified in the body. Another cause for missing the thymus is a very rare birth defect called the Digeorge Syndrome, however people suffering from this syndrome have certain facial features that make them stand out, very much similar to Down Syndrome. We know Michael didn’t have Digeorge Syndrome, there’s no mention of the deceased body having HIV, so why is the thymus missing? I can’t find a medical explanation for it!!!!
It is worth mentioning that removal of Thymus is highly unconventional & dangerous, the only time that a surgeon might decide to remove a thymus is in infants with sever heart defects that require heart surgery, the thymus in these cases sometimes have to be removed in order for the surgeon to have an unobstructed access to the heart. however this is not the case in older children or adults. Another very rare case that requires removal of thymus, which again I insist is very rare & it's a tough choice for a surgeon to make, is if a patient is suffering from Myasthenia gravis. Myasthenia gravis is a neuro-muscular disease leading to severe fluctuation of muscles & weakness & fatiguability. Again not all the cases of Myasthenia gravis require removal of thymus. Removal of thymus bears sever neurological side effects & it is a contributing factor in death of HIV patients. So why is the body missing the Thymus?]
Head and Central Nervous System:
1- There is no hemorrhage on the surface or below the surface of the scalp
2- All the tissues covering the brain are intact & without hemorrhage [the deceased suffered from cardiac arrest, which means his brain was left without oxygen for a good while, so there must be some hemorrhage on the interior tissue, the tissue closest to the brain, but the coroner indicates that all tissues are spotless!!!!!]
Neuropathology:
1- The brain was placed in formalin at the time of autopsy to be fixed, in order to undergo further examination.
2- Selected areas of the brain is preserved by the neuro-pathologist on 7/8/09
3- The rest of the brain was released to the mortuary on 7/8/09 [Therefore the whole thing about the delayed burial because theydidn’t have his brain is untrue, the mortuary had the brain on July 8, one day after the memorial]
Case Report: Page 20
Not going to post everything, just some examples
1- 1 photograph taken at the Forensic Science center on 6/25/09 [Why would they take any picture at the Forensic lab? Did they take a picture of the specimen sent to be examined?]
2.- 61 photographs taken before & during autopsy on 6/26/09 documenting resuscitative injury & prostate enlargement whiting the urinary bladder [does this mean that they only photographed the mentioned parts & procedures & not the entire course of autopsy?!]
3.- 3 photographs of a silver BMW 645 Ci taken on 6/29/09 [what does this photo do at the coroners?! This has nothing to do with the autopsy]
4.- 13 photographs taken at the scene on 6/29/09 showing the dressing room with closets where additional medical evidence was collected. [I want to pay close attention to this detail. Many of you thought that the news published by TMZ regarding the hidden closet that contained a plastic bag full of medications (i.e. Propofol) was a new discovery. This is not true. As you can see by the time they wrote this report those evidences had been recovered. Bear in mind that many of the information released/published later in the media was recycled news. Any body who would have taken the time to read the 51 pages of the autopsy report & the 43 pages of the released affidavit would see that all the things that have been mentioned recently in the media already exist in those reports. meaning that there are not new discoveries. What amazes me is the role of media in unfolding this whole case. They're completely relying on the fact that general masses haven't taken the time to read through the pages & chose to publish little sound bites of the released information. But if we all take it upon ourselves to read through these supposed official documents, we'll be able to see through the many inconsistencies surrounding this case & the fact that the District Attorney's office doesn't have a lot to go with for a conviction. The rest is all media hype & how they chose to feed the information to the public. I hope you manage to see through their schemes. Just like Michael said: "Just because you read it in a magazine or see it on the TV screen don't make it factual!"]
5.- 4 photographs of the stokes litter (it’s the kind of stretcher they use in rescue missions) from Sherriff’s Air 5 helicopter used in transporting decedent. [you have all seen the infamous body transfer footage, no body bags used, just wrapped in white sheet,no wonder they had to go back & photograph that…you just don’t transfer a dead body without a body bag! It’s a high risk, you might lose body fluids that could be crucial to the case.]
***NOTE: the witness to the autopsy is LAPD detective Smith.
Case Report: Page 21
Coroner’s Final Opinion:
Although we don’t have the actual toxicology report attached with this autopsy report, but the coroners have made their final opinion about the cause of death based on mostly the toxicology report. The coroner states, based on the toxicology results, high levels of Propofol & benzodiazepines were found in the victim’s blood. Please read my previous post on the Propofol calculation & the amount needed to achieve full anesthesia for a grown male of Michael's size & age. In that post I have explained that the amount of Propofol found in Michael's body couldn't have been fetal, even the anesthesiologist's consult proves my conclusion. Therefore the proper cause of death must have been diagnosed as Central Nervous System failure which causes respiratory & cardiac system failure.
It is mentioned that the autopsy did not show any trauma or natural diseases which could contributed to the death.
It is decided the manner of death is “HOMICIDE” which means death by the hands of other, based on the following:
a) The propofol & benzodiazepines found in victims system was administered by another & there’s no evidence for self-administration of Propofol.
[There's no way they can prove that the victim has self administered. There are many medical & scientific facts that oppose this idea. ]
b) The propofol was administered outside of a hospital setting & without appropriate medical & monitoring equipment & does not meet the standard of administering the Propofol.
***********************************************************************************************************************************
Source: http://xscapemj.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11440
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 24, 2012, 07:59:53 PM
I think I said this about 2 or 3 pages ago :icon_e_confused:
Don't worry Hesouttamylife, nothing in this thread that hasn't been repeated over and over again! :icon_lol:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_E2GBHKCV--o/SbBNbL5LHRI/AAAAAAAAAKY/7saGxx1a3Gg/s320/ist2_5483484-lost-in-labyrinth-xxl.jpg)
This is us^^! :thjajaja121:
:smiley_abuv: :icon_lol:
Post by: bec on November 24, 2012, 10:53:39 PM
Quote
4. California Penal Code § 401 – Every person who deliberately aids, or advises, or encourages another to commit suicide, is guilty of a felony.;http://www.finalexit.org/assisted_suicide_laws_united_states.html
Quote
5. California Cal. Penal Code Sec. 401(24 KB) "Every person who deliberately aids, or advises, or encourages another to commit suicide, is guilty of a felony."http://euthanasia.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000132
Quote
Legal Status of Assisted Suicide/Euthanasia in the United Stateshttp://www.nightingalealliance.org/pdf/state_grid.pdf
State
CaliforniaCurrent State Statutes
California has a law which specifically prohibits assisted
suicide. Cal. Penal Code §401. Euthanasia is prohibited in
California under the general homicide laws.Past Legislation & Ballot Initiatives
In 1992, the citizens of California defeated Proposition
161, a ballot measure to legalize euthanasia and
physician-assisted suicide by a 54%-46% margin.
This scenario of a hospice patient committing suicide by ingesting prescribed pills from a doctor in Oregon or Washington would be against the law in California. Not for the patient (suicide itself is not against the law in CA anymore), but any of the following is against the law in California: knowing someone is about to commit suicide and not reporting it (failure to report), facilitating someone to commit suicide by making it easier for them to do so, or encouraging it ("yes we NEED someone to DIE so MJ can hoax his death", that's pretty encouraging for an MJ fan). MJ and AEG at least would be guilty of encouraging it, all would be guilty of failure to report, and MJ and Murray could both be found guilty of facilitating it (here, lie in this nice bed with this nice fire with this nice, convenient end table and this nice juice, or water if you prefer, within easy reach, while you take those pills right on time for my numbers to all fit in the numerology, ok? Enjoy!).
How was the body ID'ed as MJ from MJ's driver's license?
How did real paramedics know to go to Carrolwood? Did they just go on an emergency call not coming through dispatch but just because one guy on the team said they needed to go? Including the fire chief? Really?
Was the driver the only one in on it? If not then why did he back out? Why did they all forget to close the ambulance doors at UCLA? Two guys are just walking along, not pushing the stretcher, not rushing ahead. Everyone forgot to close the doors? Where's the IV drip for this real body they already worked on for 42 minutes? Why no IV? Is he not in need of fluids? There's already a port in place (supposedly from paramedic testimony), you've done everything to try n save his life for 42 minutes yet no IV fluid drip?
Could Dr. Cooper restart the heart of a patient that had been dead for at minimum 42 minutes after ingesting a suicide drug? (And hasn't gotten any fluids since). Because if she's not in on it, then she's telling the truth.
The FBI may be involved in snuffing out enemies of the state for the (perceived) public good (which I too said 2 or 3 pages ago, along with mentioning it's the CIA's job overseas, and they do most of the snuffing as well..., FBI is internal mainly), but the FBI arranging the death of a terminally ill patient to pose as a pop singer?
It's ok to be unfamiliar with the law, I don't think any of us are lawyers here, you just look up the statute, like I did above. California law is very clear on the matter of assisted suicide, the state considers it a felony to aid and/or abet a suicide.
For the record, I don't have a problem with assisted suicide at all. If it ever came up on a ballot in my state I would vote for it. That is not my problem with this theory. My problem is that it doesn't make sense, and any loose ends invariably get tied up with the universal FBI involvement explanation.
Post by: bec on November 25, 2012, 12:53:25 AM
The 'alleged' victim statement followed the charge of manslaughter...so it would be accurate IF a DWD patient was involved because 1) they were not a victim of manslaughter, and 2) they weren't a victim of anything under DWD since that is a self-made choice.
The jury found Murray guilty of manslaughtering this man, so legally, yes, they were a(n) [alleged] victim of manslaughter. As if that makes any sense.If this were FBI authorized assisted suicide in CA, why was Murray charged and tried for Involuntary Manslaughter?
I'm still not understanding the logic of using the autopsy or DC as proof of anything. By this reasoning...in support of a dummy having been used, then anyone who filled out the forms would've had to be in on it obviously, since there would've been no body. Conclusion: the documents would be fake. Likewise, anyone who came in contact with the dummy, including Dr. Cooper, would also have to be in on it...therefore, any and all testimony and documents would've had to be 'fake', since there would've been no real body that was worked on.
Exactly. That's the point. If a dummy is used, then the documents are fake, which we know them to be. Conversely, IF a real body is used, THEN the documents ought to be real. A real body with fake documents doesn't make sense, considering they don't match MJ either. So why fake documents if you have a real body to autopsy? I have laid out in several posts how ~10 people have to be in on it if they used a dummy. Out of the ambulance and into the ER, it's surrounded by 3 bodyguards and 4 paramedics (3+4, nice), 1 Murray, and (eventually arriving) 2 ER docs. Add a regular old lock on the door of a room to wheel the stretcher into and who's going to come into contact with the body unauthorized?
We are just assuming 'who', if anyone, that saw and/or worked the 'body' had to be fooled...we don't know that this is, in fact, true (i.e. that someone had to be fooled that actually saw the 'body'). For all we know, those that saw the body were in on it....and the purpose of using it was to cover any possible unexpected people seeing the body. As TS pointed out...but it seems to not be taken into account by some...IF a dummy was used and someone who was NOT in on it showed up and saw the dummy...how would it be explained away as it being just a distraction? That would mean that MJ just happened to have a dummy on hand in case he died on June 25th? I don't think that would fly...not at UCLA and most definitely NOT at Carolwood. In a supposed emergency situation...when seconds matter and when MJ is supposedly near death...how would a dummy be explained away if someone not in the know saw it? Instead of looking after Mike, they moved his real body to another room in the house, went and found a dummy that just so happened to be there, put the dummy in Mike's bed and actually pretended to work on it? That makes no sense in trying to keep it as real as possible nor does it fulfill covering all bases in case something/someone unexpected happened to show up.
If those ~10 people are in on it, or most of them, or even some of them, the million dollar question: why use a real body in the first place? Also, the emergency responders could go through all the motions on a dummy (without actually following through, in case of injections, specific procedures, etc), pretend to give an injection, pretend to insert a balloon pump, pretend to give cpr), and this would serve for realism in recollections later, because they did actually draw the injection, they did actually prepare the balloon pump, they did actually get tired from giving cpr, etc.
As for the 'legalities' of a DWD patient choosing to take the 'lethal dose' somewhere other than OR or WA, I can't find anything in the DWD Act that explicitly states that this is NOT legal (I think it was Adi who suggested this may be a loophole in the law itself)...so the argument about it being murder and/or illegal if it occurred in CA may very well be a non-issue.
You won't find it because it is implied; that's how the laws work in the United States. Each state has a penal code that applies to persons and entities within their boarders. A state's laws do not apply across the boarder in another state unless the second state's penal code contains a similar statute to the first. One state's laws do not apply in another state and no state may not profess that it's residents receive carte blanche across jurisdictions, ie, Washington cannot state in it's penal code that it is legal for it's residents to act in a way that is illegal in California, Washington has no jurisdiction in California. US citizens do not abide by the laws of their residency, they abide the laws of their location.
Which doesn't really mater anyway considering the charges for participating in the suicide of another person would be brought against MJ, AEG, and possibly Murray depending on the circumstances, for aiding and abetting a suicide. If the death was found to be euthanasia, it would be a murder charge. They don't have to be standing in the room to be found guilty of these charges in California because simply aiding and abetting a suicide is a felony in the state, CA penal code 401.
I still have some questions/things I'm unsure of as far as the hospice theory goes...but I have been and remain open to it, perhaps because I, personally, don't see a terminally ill person choosing how, where and when they are going to die, as 'murder' or 'assisted suicide' or 'suicide' or any other negative connotation. I'm actually surprised that a country that has elected a 'pro-choice' government back-to-back doesn't have more states with DWD, considering the beliefs underlying both are very similar.
I don't see it negatively either. That's not my problem with the theory. My problem is that it doesn't make sense with the information we have.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 25, 2012, 12:58:39 AM
Post by: bec on November 25, 2012, 01:01:48 AM
A hospice patient or equivalent takes a fatal dose of something anytime starting around noon on June 25th, while Murray steps out of the room to go pee, according to the doc’s story. He comes back to find this person with his eyes open and not breathing but there is a faint pulse so he administers CPR, on the bed. This claim could show that he did NOT want to revive the body, if the person was supposed to die, hence why he didn’t administer CPR properly, on a hard flat surface as opposed to the bed, and with one hand instead of two. The use of a dummy could also explain Murray’s improper CPR, for the official story and recollection. The immediate cause of death was reported to be cardiac arrest which would make it impossible for Murray to have felt a faint pulse as the heart would not be beating. The propofol bottle the patient allegedly used to self-administer is laying on the floor.
If a real body was being used to fool paramedics then a genuine 911 call would be needed, to get a response from paramedics who have no idea what they’re about to encounter. So then Alberto would dial 911, from an entirely different location mind you, precisely at 12:21. He doesn’t name the patient – that argument could go either way with the dummy or corpse scenario. The 911 call doesn’t follow normal 911 protocol and didn’t hit the scanners so it seems very likely that the call wasn’t real, that it was staged and recorded for the purpose of the hoax. Again, if you have a real body to fool paramedics, they’re not going to know to go to Carolwood if a fake call is placed. You can’t have only one paramedic in on it, let’s say Senneff, in this scenario because the rest of the team would still need to think they’re responding to a genuine emergency via a real 911 call.
The paramedics then work on MJ unsuccessfully for 42 minutes (wiki), there’s THAT number again, Murray refuses to call the death so they bring the body down to the ambulance where it backs out of the drive way in super slow motion to allow for the infamous ambulance photo to be taken. Even the though the photo was fake, there had to be an opportunity for it to apparently be taken. If there was a real body and a real 911 call placed to get the clueless paramedics there and the call hit the scanners and more paps/lookie loos showed up to see what was going on, the ambulance could’ve turned around on the Carolwood property (as per the roundabout behind the gates) and left the property much quicker. There wouldn’t be a need for the ambulance to stop (camera snap snap) when going from reverse to drive, it would just drive straight out, sirens wailing and lights flashing so people would get out of the way quickly. But the need for the ambulance photo opportunity had to be there – which shows the ambulance driver’s compliance for that.
The ambulance gets to UCLA at about 1:14 pm and the stretcher is wheeled in, completely surrounded and the fire alarm is pulled and people start streaming outside. TMZ is now reporting that MJ has gone into cardiac arrest, saying “it’s looking bad" and a family member tells them MJ is “in really bad shape”. The doctors then work on the body for over an hour, possibly reviving the body, then death is pronounced at 2:26 pm. Meanwhile, it’s absolute chaos on the hospital grounds with crowds of people screaming for Michael to be saved. UCLA has no part whatsoever in announcing the death. Normally the attending physician would make the announcement but UCLA’s silence hints at their compliance as well their not signing a death certificate. A second death certificate and autopsy report for a real patient is pure speculation with absolutely no evidence to support that. And we all know the body wasn’t properly identified and autopsy report reflected that the person who died was MJ himself and not someone else, then it was finalized on a hoaxy date, 9/9/09, coincidentally enough. Not to mention the 'dead' body photos used in the trial show someone who definitely looks like Michael.
I do understand the DWD info and reasons but every step of the way shows, to me, that the people who came into contact with what was on the stretcher, (from outside agencies – paramedics, doctors, coroner) were in on it. If the FBI HAD to use a real dead body, then we are missing a huge part of the story as to WHY it was necessary. Going with the evidence we DO have, a corpse still doesn't make sense to me.
Andrea brought up a lot of hard challenges to the dead body theory that proponents have largely ignored.
Ps. Andrea:
Quote
saying “it’s looking bad" and a family member tells them MJ is “in really bad shape”.
nice!
Post by: diggyon on November 25, 2012, 01:14:04 AM
Blessings
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 25, 2012, 01:21:11 AM
As for the autopsy report, death certificate, etc., why would the documents have to be real if there was a real corpse? If there really was a DWD patient there might not be a need for an autopsy. Even so, who's to say there aren't real documents somewhere filed with the proper institutions? For example, the will we saw was clearly fake, but that doesn't mean that Michael doesn't have a real will somewhere. I believe TS stated long ago that the coroner was definitely in on it, so either way (dummy or corpse) there would be fake documents for hoax purposes.
Post by: Adi on November 25, 2012, 01:45:36 AM
What if the patient self-administered the drug in Oregon that morning and the body was frozen to delay rigor mortis/decomposition? Then the body could have been flown via private jet to LA (about a 2:30 hour flight) and that's why Michael went to the airport? Maybe the room was especially warm that day to speed up the thawing process? I'm just trying to think of every possibility regarding the corpse issue. :Pulling_hair:
I was thinking of this same scenario earlier today SIC. What if a DWD patient had ingested the medication in WA or OR and had died there, but had left in their last wishes to be buried in California (perhaps they had family there or were originally from California?) After all the necessary paperwork was completed satisfying the DWD Laws in which ever state they were in, their body could have been released and then transported to California and kept at low temperatures until burial day in the meantime making a detour via the home of Michael Jackson.
I presume it is not illegal to die in a different state than California and then be buried in Cali as long as all the required legal procedures & paperwork etc are met?
Post by: Andrea on November 25, 2012, 01:46:33 AM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 25, 2012, 02:23:35 AM
There are too many contradictions in the reported events of June 25th for a real body to have been used. The DWD scenario is just too hypothetical and doesn't fit with the events/actions/documents of those who handled the 'body', especially when considering they're the ones this body is meant to fool. All we have to go with is what they've said and recorded on paper. The DWD theory is also fraught with ethical and legal concerns, not to mention public backlash no matter how good the intentions were. If we are to accept the DWD patient theory, we need more than 'maybe' or 'could'. I do think it's totally possible there is an FBI sting involved with the hoax but using a vague FBI-involvement excuse for using a DWD patient isn't enough to debunk the dummy theory, it's not a strong enough point. We are lacking details to support the need for a real dead body - what is it's purpose?
inarguably, the California law will be a barrier to the DWD theory...
At this point after a LOT of 'thinking' I finally decided that DWD theory is not possible, solely because of Ca Law...
If the patient died in OR/WA and was brought to Carolwood, maybe the day before (Probably on 24th June), it would be too risky ( as far as success of the hoax is concerned). So he might have been brought DAYS earlier into the state of California...and if that is the case, the patients under the 'unknown' category are the ones who have NOT been used for this hoax...and the rest of them would have been.
As mj's public image is one of the main concerns in the hoax, then this DWD theory would help the public to create yet another negative image of MJ...as a murderer.
We know that the ambulance backed out on June 25Th( for the ambo pic) so the driver was definitely in the hoax, and the other paramedics would have to be in on it (success of the hoax) because they're in direct contact with the body. If they anyways are in direct contact with the body, a corpse is in now way necessary ( I mean, why take the pains to have a dead DWD patient transported from one state to another, and make sure the body is in good condition)...
A dummy would've been way easier to get the things done.
It's very important for the hoax to be legal all the way..MJ has no chance of leaving any kind of loopholes and if this is really the case...
I'm now voting for dummy.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 25, 2012, 03:19:05 AM
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/27/michael-jacksons-body-hold-the-plastic/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/27/michael-jacksons-body-hold-the-plastic/)
I'm not sure how the Institute for Plastination's Body Donation Program works or if a body can be plastinated with the skin intact (I don't have the time to look it up right now), but if a body was donated and then plastinated, would it then be both a corpse and a dummy, since some dummies are made out of plastic? Would this be considered a very life-like dummy? Sorry for all my random rambling ideas tonight, I'm just trying to make sense out of this.
Post by: MJonmind on November 25, 2012, 04:07:04 AM
Bec
Quote
Besides, we have an alleged victim... not a victim who was allegedly Michael Jackson. What TS is describing is not an alleged victim, it is a confirmed victim. Someone REALLY died in his scenario…
Either that or maybe TS really IS just guessing himself and he's wrong. In which case, I guess we can kiss the bamsday deadline goodbye. See you all in 2013...
:screaming-7365:
Bec
Quote
This scenario of a hospice patient committing suicide by ingesting prescribed pills from a doctor in Oregon or Washington would be against the law in California. Not for the patient (suicide itself is not against the law in CA anymore), but any of the following is against the law in California: knowing someone is about to commit suicide and not reporting it (failure to report), facilitating someone to commit suicide by making it easier for them to do so, or encouraging it ("yes we NEED someone to DIE so MJ can hoax his death", that's pretty encouraging for an MJ fan). MJ and AEG at least would be guilty of encouraging it, all would be guilty of failure to report, and MJ and Murray could both be found guilty of facilitating it (here, lie in this nice bed with this nice fire with this nice, convenient end table and this nice juice, or water if you prefer, within easy reach, while you take those pills right on time for my numbers to all fit in the numerology, ok? Enjoy!).Yikes!
Paula, what comes to mind with the autopsy report and seeing MJ's larger left lung and left kidney, is 'man in the mirror'. It's like an autopsy of MJ's reflected image, reflecting MJ's healthy body, but certainly not a terminally ill patient. And did he really die of cardiac arrest if there was no brain hemorrhage?
Quote
5- No tablet or capsule portions are seen in the stomach contents [very interesting comment, this can help to establish a timeline, considering the average time each medication’s metabolism takes, why wasn't further analysis done! If the timeline given by Murray is correct there must be some trace of medications in the stomach content especially considering the rumors that have been floating around about Michael being an addict. Considering the timeline given by Murray & the time of death there must be some trace in the stomach content, unless the body has been metabolizing after death!!! ]
Well, it seems TS claims that this thing happened, in spite of us saying it is illegal in California, and whether or not we have emotional qualms about it. Whether we think it makes sense or fits with the story-line of going to UCLA that day with 'in' or 'not-in' participants, doesn't seem worrying to TS.
BUT, perhaps using a DWD patient is a clue to something else coming that is very very serious on a planetary scale. And meanwhile, "Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die", is happening here for us hoaxers. Front said we should loosen up a little and laugh. Perhaps there is a sense in which we as humans all have less than 6 months to live (MJ was said by the tabloids to have 6 months to live), and need to prepare for this EVENT coming our way. There was The Sign (TS)'s statement that 'none of us will grow old unless we're already old', enters in to this. Jermaine changing his name to Jack SUN. The Eggbury crop circle formation of 2008 includes the 12/21/12 prediction, the coming of planet X or the second SUN which will wreak havoc on earth, and the lining up of the planets as MJ sang about -- literally Revelation fulfillment. It is related to the return of the Annunaki who were involved with the Old Testament stories, the winged sumerian symbol which Michael (Archangel) wore on many occasions. Maybe this Ark of the Covenant of RW and the one in the heavens (atmosphere) is connected to a form of escape from earth's coming cataclysm. And TS/ Michael knows a way of escape just as Noah was commanded to build a boat for any who believed his warning that a flood was coming. Someone linked this video a week or so ago, and it is excellent!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d70HG9V3yxs[/youtube]
I thought it was interesting how TS offered his sympathies when some members here talked of recent deaths in their families:
TS on Nov 4
Quote
Quote from: angel on November 03, 2012, 10:17:21 AMQuote@Souza, MaryK, reveron1958, and applehead123, I'm so sorry for your loss. May God send His Comforter to you and your families. Love
My sympathies also, to those who are going through a time of grief and loss.
Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."
See what verses follow this verse he picked out. It's the coming of the Messiah, I think in a UFO (cloud), followed by major death and destruction on earth. Could this be soon coming scenario TS is telling us about? There's so many other verses he could have picked out. The Daniel 12:1-4 verses say the same thing--"Michael stands on the earth" and then major destruction of life on earth follows. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%2012:1-4&version=KJV
Revelation 14:13-20
Quote
King James Version (KJV)
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
So this DWD person is giving us a message, and in the big picture, it is good (I think...). Remember Bec, how TS said the horses that drowned in the Red Sea were not dying in vain but giving a message for us today.
Post by: ellyd on November 25, 2012, 06:29:30 AM
QuoteAnatomization of the Living Dead: Part 4
[...]
you just don’t transfer a dead body without a body bag! It’s a high risk, you might lose body fluids that could be crucial to the case
[...]
Source: http://xscapemj.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html
“What” was transported to where? Again the transport question is coming up. I’m trying to answer it backwards, starting with the transport from UCLA to the coroner and revising my idea on my “project map”.
The mentioned sheets are not the answer for “no corpse” being transported from UCLA to the coroner.
There are several videos about the coroner’s facility, e.g. this one:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MqVBM7AUsSE[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MqVBM7AUsSE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MqVBM7AUsSE)
They use white sheets for covering dead persons on scene and the coroner’s staff seems to double wrap corpses into these sheets that need to be unwrapped upon arrival / examination (0:52). These sheets are knotted during transport / storage as can be seen in this video (0:40):
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74HN0V8KUYc&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74HN0V8KUYc&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74HN0V8KUYc&feature=relmfu)
In comparing the above videos to the video of “MJ” arriving with the helicopter
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lC90CfHBeA[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lC90CfHBeA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lC90CfHBeA)
however one can notice that the “what” that was transported has no arms. The body on the stretcher is entirely flat. It was neatly wrapped and much care was applied – the feet were stretched out and explicitly fixed by a band to make identifiable where was top and where was end of the body inside.
However, this is not usual in the coroner’s world – at least this “dress-up” is not visible in the video material in the web.
Arms are usually crossed over the chest and the upper knot is executed between head and arms to prevent them from falling down when rigor mortis loosens up. Feet are standing up and not stretching flat. We cannot see anything of the “real life” coroner videos in the video about the stretcher with “MJ” coming out of the helicopter.
No arms means: the “what” on the transport from UCLA to the coroner was a dummy.
This would also explain why the coroner’s staff met in the van to hold a mini conference for the “how to proceed further”.
If a dummy arrived at the coroner, the coroner is at some point and with some person “in”. We assumed earlier from Craig Harvey’s public statements on Twitter and Facebook and his record as a technical advisor for movies that he was “in”. However, Craig Harvey is not the Chief Examining Coroner but only one employee at the office.
(Add: the coroner put together / published an AR that is clearly describing a different person than MJ (from what we know about MJ’s health records). The coroner could pull any existing AR about a male corpse out of his archive drawer, modify it here and there and declare it to be the AR of MJ – given he’s “in” and covered by the sting. He could have used an AR of an unidentified male e.g. of which the morgue knows many, irrespective of what or who entered the office.)
Given that no corpse but a dummy was transported to the coroner, any sting requiring a corpse took place at UCLA.
That indicates to me in a linear concept that the transport from Carolwood Dr. to UCLA could not have taken place with a dummy and continue with a dummy to the coroner. There is no real and sound reason I could see to create a transport sequence of that scale for a dummy only. Using an ambulance and switching to a helicopter as a means of transport is a dramatic crescendo of triggering emotions. Filming all of that from several perspectives with “proof of” pictures and several camera crews may serve a “Dr. James’ Beverly Hills Clinic” reality show but is neither necessary for a real transport of a corpse nor for a hoax transport of an Annie. It may be required, though, to pull attention off the actual real focus of interest and is once more a basic element of illusion for spectators and a potential key element of the make.believe to quietly execute a sting. I think they exchanged the arriving corpse by a leaving dummy which would not have been a great deal since resuscitation dummies are usual for training purposes at a teaching clinic.
We have the “proof of” picture from Carolwood Dr. / NPG. We have the “proof of” second video from the tourist bus. We were given a third “proof of” video of Ben Evenstad when they followed the ambulance to UCLA (in an Escalade SUV). Now why do we need so much “proof of” elements if the person in the ambulance would really be MJ? They wouldn’t be required except if there was a question in the room or feared whether the dead person would truly be MJ. In providing those “proof of” elements when needed, early and recurring doubts were silenced. Actually those three proofs didn’t prove anything but were only more of the same material from a different camera angle - this however was not noticed then.
Why use a helicopter from UCLA to the coroner if it was only about a dummy?
A helicopter transport could be justified if there is a kind of a risk for the transport or if time is critical. Neither argument applies from my perspective. I could agree on “a helicopter is faster in getting away from paps and unwelcome witnesses”. But was it then necessary to fly westwards and provide a tour over L.A.’s hills when the coroner’s office is located in the east of L.A. (not too far from where “Thriller” was produced btw)?
So who was to be fooled by this corpse to UCLA with multiple “proof of” that it was really MJ’s body who came into UCLA? Only the media?
There are indications from the past to think about a potential sting at UCLA.
In 2003, suspicion arose around UCLA for criminal activities.
In 2004, the director of the body donation program at UCLA was arrested.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/US/West/03/07/ucla.cadaver/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/US/West/03/07/ucla.cadaver/index.html)
In 2007, the full scandal was revealed at UCLA about selling body parts of donated corpses.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2007/03/08/the-body-parts-bandits.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2007/03/08/the-body-parts-bandits.html)
I found this video in which Lieutenant David Smith presents the coroner’s office to Sky News. It is cut together material where sound and image don’t always fit. Interesting part: Ltn. Smith talks about the standard procedure when a corpse enters the coroner’s office: taking finger prints and handing information over to the FBI.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GhKh9NXEdk&feature=related[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GhKh9NXEdk&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GhKh9NXEdk&feature=related)
The FBI would have been informed at that moment at the latest.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 25, 2012, 06:46:25 AM
Here's an excerpt from a lecture given showing how different courts interpreted someone's 'right to die':
Quote
...In the first of these two cases, Compassion in Dying v. Washington, the Ninth Circuit held that any statute which prohibits aiding another to commit suicide is contrary to the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. In deciding whether there was a constitutional right to physician-assisted suicide, the Ninth Circuit found that a liberty right existed to determine the time and manner of one's death. The existence of such a liberty interest, however, did not mean that the State of Washington could not regulate that liberty. The court balanced the competing interests of the State of Washington's power to regulate with the liberty of the terminally ill plaintiffs' right to die. The court determined that while the State of Washington had legitimate interests in protecting life, preventing suicide, and in regulating doctors, those interests were substantially reduced in the case of a terminally ill adult who wished to end his life in the final stages of an incurable and painful degenerative disease.http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1334&context=jcred&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dis%2520there%2520a%2520constitutional%2520right%2520to%2520die%2520st.%2520john%27s%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CC0QFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fscholarship.law.stjohns.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1334%2526context%253Djcred%26ei%3DuQayUIiSDua20AGIw4GgAQ%26usg%3DAFQjCNE7vgzocrm0lAWNbq5YHEl7Mw5plA#search=%22there%20constitutional%20right%20die%20st.%20johns%22 (http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1334&context=jcred&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.ca%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dis%2520there%2520a%2520constitutional%2520right%2520to%2520die%2520st.%2520john%27s%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D1%26ved%3D0CC0QFjAA%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fscholarship.law.stjohns.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1334%2526context%253Djcred%26ei%3DuQayUIiSDua20AGIw4GgAQ%26usg%3DAFQjCNE7vgzocrm0lAWNbq5YHEl7Mw5plA#search=%22there%20constitutional%20right%20die%20st.%20johns%22)
...The other case argued before the Supreme Court was Quill v. Vacco. Dr. Quill and two colleagues brought this action to challenge the constitutionality of New York statutes that were very similar to those in Washington. The district court ruled against both a due process argument and an equal protection argument. The Second Circuit agreed with the district court, finding there was no liberty interest, unlike the Ninth Circuit had found. They also determined that there was no fundamental right and no suspect classification involved.
....Earlier this year a state judge in Florida ruled that a terminally ill patient had the constitutional right to terminate his suffering and to determine the time and manner of his death. The state judge recognized, for the first time in any state court, a
constitutional right to die.
Of course, the hospice/DWD theory may NOT be what happened on June 25th....and perhaps TS is just throwing us for a loop. However, I believe a case can be made for it just as much (if not more) as a dummy having been used. As for the 'legalities' of it...which seems to be one of the main reasons many are rejecting the theory....laws are not always black or white, and the 'right to die' is a VERY 'murky' issue....as shown in the excerpt above.
On another note...since no one here can YET prove with 100% certainty that a DWD patient did NOT die on June 25th, I think we should be more mindful of the 'wording' used in posts when trying to describe what may or may not have happened. Making light of ANY DWD patient and/or the circumstances surrounding their death, hypothetical or real, takes the 'dignity' right out of the equation.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: ellyd on November 25, 2012, 06:51:23 AM
What would be an alternative to a DWD scenario?
Put an ad in the newspaper like "Casting: would you donate your body? we want to know you", make a contract and wait until one of these person really dies - meanwhile having alerted the targets and risking the sting?
Post by: marumjj on November 25, 2012, 07:05:15 AM
Over the years, there has been and still is a great deal of excellent investigation in this forum—not only in these seven levels, but in all other areas as well. With only one week to go for Level 7, though, it’s time for me to bring out the Thanksgiving leftovers on a silver platter. :LolLolLolLol:
It seems that at least some here have not looked very much into Death with Dignity (DWD). It is only for those who have already been diagnosed with less than six months to live, and who personally initiate the request for the process; and the law “requires the patient to ingest the medication unassisted.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Death_with_Dignity_Act)}
This means that DWD is not murder. There are some who call it suicide, and there are some who argue against it being suicide; but there is no basis to argue that it is murder, or anything similar to murder. It is a matter of historical fact that the majority of voters in Oregon (OR) and Washington (WA) do not even think that it’s suicide, much less murder. And for those who do think it is suicide: “Those whose spiritual beliefs include opposition to physician-assisted dying are free to not use the Oregon or Washington law.” {http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/historyfacts/questions); see http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2012/02/23/myth-4-its-suicide); http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide (http://www.deathwithdignity.org/2011/04/25/death-dignity-isnt-suicide); http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf (http://tinyurl.com/ck2nnuf)}
So if the FBI cooperated with someone in the DWD program: it would be someone who had already voluntarily enlisted in the program, who did not think that it was suicide, and who would be dying anyway within a limited time window—the only question would be where, and exactly when. No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours—especially if it was someone who had no close relatives or friends, to be with them at the close of their life. If we wanted to use emotional arguments: we could easily claim that it would be very cruel and coldhearted, to deny someone this privilege and opportunity.
Nevertheless, good investigators should leave feelings out of the formula, and stick with facts as far as possible. And it is a simple fact that DWD is not illegal. In fact, both OR and WA have laws against calling DWD suicide, or homicide, etc. “Actions taken in accordance with ORS 127.800 to 127.897 shall not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing or homicide, under the law.” {http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Pages/ors.aspx)} “Actions taken in accordance with this chapter do not, for any purpose, constitute suicide, assisted suicide, mercy killing, or homicide, under the law. State reports shall not refer to practice under this chapter as ‘suicide’ or ‘assisted suicide.’” {https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf (https://wei.sos.wa.gov/agency/osos/en/Documents/I1000-Text%20for%20web.pdf)}
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
It’s true that under the OR and WA laws, the DWD patients must be residents of those states; however, there is nothing in the laws that specifically require the patients to physically be in OR or WA, when they ingest the medication. It is also an interesting fact that during the first 13 years of the OR law (1998 to 2010), not even 1 case listed the location of death as “unknown”; but during the first 3 years of the WA law, 2 listed the location as “unknown”—both of which were in 2009.{http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf (http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/year14-tbl-1.pdf); http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf (http://www.doh.wa.gov/portals/1/Documents/5300/DWDA2011.pdf)}.
Most likely at least one of these 2009 “unknown” location deaths, and maybe both of them, were in California. Since the DWD program is entirely voluntary, and the patient is free to back out at any time for any reason: having a second patient readily available would still allow everything to go as planned, even if one of the two changed his mind. And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Speaking of risk: it would be the FBI four years ago, and not members of this forum now, who would decide the risks of using a dummy versus a DWD patient. Our investigation job here is not to decide the risk factors for the FBI, but rather to investigate the evidence pointing to whether they decided in favor of DWD or a dummy.
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
On the other hand, any unexpected discovery of a dummy at Carolwood or UCLA would’ve most likely raised huge suspicions, at the very least. To claim that a dummy could be explained away, by saying it was merely a distraction, can only be sustained by attempting to support a preconceived idea against common sense. Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn’t the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
And now for yet another amazing hoax koinkidink: “The Washington Death with Dignity Act, Initiative 1000, codified as RCW 70.245, passed on November 4, 2008 and went into effect on March 5, 2009.” {http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx (http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/DeathwithDignityAct.aspx)} The OR DWD law had already been around for about ten years; so even if the law in WA had not passed, OR patients could’ve been available. Once the WA law passed in November, however, it was only a matter of waiting the 120 day period for it to go into effect. It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Finally, WA is the state which not only went into effect on 3-5-09, but is also the state that had the two DWD patients which died in an “unknown” location in 2009; and yet no other “unknown” death locations before or since with WA patients, and zero “unknown” death locations with OR patients from 1998 to 2010 (3 in 2011). How many koinkidinks must line up, before we remember that koinkidink is the same excuse which people use to claim that there is no hoax at all?
http://public.health.oregon.gov/ProviderPartnerResources/EvaluationResearch/DeathwithDignityAct/Documents/yr13-tbl-1.pdf
Post by: marumjj on November 25, 2012, 07:46:35 AM
TS
Quote
It is essentially certain that the FBI was aware of DWD laws both in OR and in WA, and so they would’ve known when the WA law would go into effect. What is the likelihood, then, that the FBI said nothing to MJ about this—either before or after MJ planned, by koinkidink, to have the London press conference on 3-5-09?
Maybe MJ was notified of the rule of law that day. So perhaps showed an uncommon attitude and his message sounded like goodbye?
Not if the ad was already scheduled for that date or was another koinkidink. :icon_question:
Post by: RK on November 25, 2012, 09:10:25 AM
The reason I'm bringing this up is that we are looking at the events that transpired on the 25th June, when if we take Sharon's tale into account, clearly something was going down at Carolwood the night before.
Anyone interested can read Sharon's story here
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html)
A body can also fit with MJ's metaphorical hoax journey we've been experiencing these last 3+ years. Patterned not only after Elvis' hoax death, but after many biblical types (thinking of Front and the Red Sea crossing also Jermaine in an interview saying Michael was like Moses and he was his mouthpiece as Aaron was...just to name a few examples] Just as Yeshua also had a real body that died and was buried, I think there was a real body, but that tomb at Forest Lawn is empty as well.
Post by: Love4Michael on November 25, 2012, 09:33:26 AM
1. If a terminally ill patient has met all of the requirements as set forth in the OR/WA directives...and has been prescribed the necessary medication by the appropriate Doctor...then it follows that he would also have the right to determine where and when he self administers. If that happened to be on 6/25 at Carolwood Drive then that's his right. Since this chain of events originated in a state that views the process as legal I think it would relieve the legal burden that the CA law implies on anyone in the proximity at the time. The process wasn't initiated in CA...it was initiated elsewhere where it was a perfectly legal choice. It could be viewed in the same light as anyone having a directive against life support or heroic measures. It's unethical and illegal for medical personnel to intervene to attempt to save a patient who has such a directive in place. This patient would have already been granted the permission and right to die at the place and time of his own choosing...that's the whole purpose of the OR/WA laws.
2. In reading from the data in the links provided it makes a bit more plausible CM's lengthy absence from the bedside. There is data showing length of time from ingestion to unconsciousness and ingestion to death. It just struck me that on average it took roughly the same amount of time as Murray's "abandonment" of his patient.
3. The people who would twist this against Michael as some monstrous or selfish act are the same people who's negative opinions of him we've beat ourselves to death trying to convince of his overall innocence and purity. There was much evidence and testimony that seems to support the possibility that "someone" in very ill health was being taken care of at Carolwood for some time and it's clearly always been his intention to care for those in need. Michael may have had an original plan using other means for 6/25 (for timing sake) but this mystery DWD patient may have given a more realistic option. I'm sure if he needed to get this person into the house in advance he could make it so...without risk. It seems anyone on staff takes/took their "orders" seriously (where they could be and where they couldn't...when to be there and when not to) so a simple directive from the top dog would make it happen. One hitch in this thought process though is that Murray was there in the evening/night...who was there during the day to care for this person? :icon_e_sad:
4. Using the AR report to try and support or debunk this particular possibility is pointless. Bottom line is that we have all logically determined that the report is fake or we wouldn't all be here. We believe Michael to be alive and therefore the AR is a lie. Since it's a lie it was manipulated to say what needed to be said and it makes no difference in that regard if there was a person or a dummy...either is irrelevant.
5. I've wondered as well if this possibility has any bearing on the KF/MLB story of the extensive stay that the mortuary. What was it...like 9 hours??? Sounds like an all day shoot to me :icon_e_confused: I'm thinking this is the point where the dummy was involved. I'm not certain WHY at this point because there wasn't really anyone left to be convinced...or was there?. I think I remember hearing conflicting statements whether or not there was any time that the casket was open for viewing in the private services the night before or that morning. It's obvious that nobody could "work" on someone so long deceased at that point but you could sure work on a replica for hours and hours to get it just right for viewing. The DWD patient could have been buried in July (as rumors/reports suggest) and the dummy got all the attention in September. Who would still need to be fooled at this point though? Maybe a review of the "guest list" for the private services would shed some light. It would have been far simpler to just have a closed casket but if all this work really happened...it must have been needed to suit a purpose.
Enough thoughts for the moment...I have more but have to get a birthday dinner organized. Just thought I'd throw some "thought spaghetti" on the wall and see if any of it sticks...LOL.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 25, 2012, 09:40:12 AM
Post by: wishingstar on November 25, 2012, 10:48:42 AM
Some of this brings to mind the little stories floating here and there over the years, one in particular, whereby Janet supposedly delayed the funeral for reimbursement of 40K. First off, if Michael Jackson died one would think he certainly carried more than enough life insurance to bury him where ever he was being buried, even on the moon. So if Janet was reimbursed any money for a deposit made, (as the story goes that the Estate repaid her partially) it most certainly would not have not been money she paid for “Michael’s” burial. I can see her accepting a repayment & causing a stink for not being expediently reimbursed for anyone else in lieu of Michael however.
I remember reading where the life insurance was actually never collected. If it was, it would make everything illegal. It becomes insurance fraud at that point. Does anyone else know if it was collected? I am not sure how to find out. There was that lawsuit with AEG about Michael not performing etc. But, I never paid that too much belief, because if AEG is part of this, that could all be misinformation or so.
Anyways.....there is so much information and so many stories we have dissected. Sometimes I think we should be wearing lab coats, not detective hats, lol.
Have a beautiful day hoax family.....
Blessings Always
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 25, 2012, 11:03:53 AM
Post by: bec on November 25, 2012, 11:24:56 AM
Besides, the FBI is involved. They could make it legal to collect the insurance money. They can make everything legal with a snap of their fingers.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 25, 2012, 11:42:28 AM
Funny enough, when I looked back at some older posts...you (bec) had some really strong points against the dummy theory while trying to support the live MJ theory. Those points are still valid against the dummy theory...yet DO support the hospice theory.
I don't remember exactly what pages the posts were on that I'm thinking of...but I got as far as page 60 when I began rereading...so probably somewhere between page 50-60 of this thread.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Love4Michael on November 25, 2012, 12:09:26 PM
Post by: bec on November 25, 2012, 12:20:13 PM
Quote
California Penal Code Section 401http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/401.html
Every person who deliberately aids, or advises, or encourages
another to commit suicide, is guilty of a felony.
Keep in mind that the US Supreme Court does not have the power to force individual states to comply. State sovereignty rules in the US. For example, the US Supreme Court has ruled that abortion is legal in the US, yet each state has the right to decide whether or not abortion services are legal within their state. There are several states in the union which do not allow abortion. If a resident of one of those states wants to have an abortion, they must travel to a state where it is legal and have the procedure performed, even though the US Supreme Court has ruled in favor of legal abortion. Make sense?
I still support Live MJ theory. But if it is more or less agreed upon that he couldn't be on the stretcher, then something else was, and dummy makes more sense with the info that we have then any other scenario, as illustrated by information collected and presented by several members.
Post by: Andrea on November 25, 2012, 12:33:37 PM
The live MJ theory still works, it hasn't been properly debunked in my opinion. The biggest hurdle I believe, was risk and determining whether or not MJ went to the hospital or to an aiport. I agree with bec that he probably wasn't on the stretcher, possible but not probable...but not totally ruled out.
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_michael_jackson_nude_dead_dm_111011_wg.jpg)
(http://laist.com/attachments/laist_lauren/Michael_Jackson_autopsy_02.jpg)
The date is incorrect, mistakes happen, but no big deal, right? Or is it? Is it 8/25/09 - van video leak date, or 6/25/09 - the day MJ went to the hospital and posed for the photos? Because the autopsy took place the next day on 6/26/09... does trial evidence count for nothing because we are being led to believe a real body was used? Is every single agency who dealt with the body so inept that they can't fill out a single form related to the death properly? Or photo date in this instance?
Post by: Andrea on November 25, 2012, 12:41:52 PM
La Toya also mentions seeing and handling the body 10 weeks after death in her book and said he looked amazing and just like he was sleeping.
Post by: bec on November 25, 2012, 01:14:31 PM
Agreed, Live MJ has not been ruled out.
I thought the biggest hurdle to Live MJ was that the staff was dismissed before bringing the stretcher down. If it was Live MJ, they could have seen that because that's exactly what they would expect to see. A dummy with Live MJ in accompaniment in disguise, on the other hand, they might notice, considering they worked in close proximity with this man every day. A different dead person, again, they might notice.
However, how would they notice anything that emergency personnel wouldn't notice either? All staff would see was a stretcher surrounded by 3 bodyguards, 4 paramedics, and 1 Murray being hurried down the stairs, out the door, and into the waiting ambulance. It's not as if they would be allowed to "say goodbye". I've been in situations where I have been at the scene where someone is being taken away on stretcher into an ambulance, and with all the paramedics around and med equipment, I haven't been able to get a good long look at what's on the stretcher, even when I KNOW what's on the stretcher.
Regardless, staff being dismissed is alleged via rumor and supported by brief clip of a person walking out of Carrolwood gates on Hollywood TV video @the scene. So rumor suggests it and brief clip of a woman walking out of gates leads us to believe that what TS says is true, and therefore we accept that this is a giant hurdle that negates entire theories?
Hmm.
Post by: wishingstar on November 25, 2012, 01:30:41 PM
If laws are all interpretive, why not just go ahead and collect all the insurance money? MJ could use it to fund the hoax. After all, it could be argued that it would have been paid out eventually (everyone dies sooner or later), and MJ/the estate just wouldn't be allowed to collect it twice (the second time being after his real death).
Besides, the FBI is involved. They could make it legal to collect the insurance money. They can make everything legal with a snap of their fingers.
Perhaps MJ had a loan against the life insurance money...that is legal, many do that. Yes, of course, everyone dies and if there is life insurance, it will be paid out....eventually. Supposedly, Michael's life insurance was/is with Lloyd's of London (a UK company)....the FBI is a domestic bureau, with jurisdictions within the US borders. The CIA has international jurisdiction. If anyone were going to "snap their fingers" with Lloyd's, it would have to be the CIA. However, I really don't think the CIA is involved. So barring any pay-out from Lloyd's, the insurance policy is still in place. AEG tried to sue, but ended up dropping......we all remember that just back in September. What interests me is what insurance policy are we talking about? MJ had the one with Lloyd's.....the one mentioned here. It was put into place for TII and the concerts etc. What personal insurance did/does he have? Surely he had private life insurance. It's that policy which I am not too sure about....if there was one, was it paid out. I haven't heard. Lloyd's probably operates as a non-admitted policy and therefore subject to different laws anyways. Typically, in the US, if a policy goes uncollected it eventually goes to the state.....like a bank account with uncollected funds. But, with Lloyd's it is most likely different. I am wondering if there was another policy....does anyone know? Did/does Michael have personal life insurance? He could have made a loan against that to "fund" this hoax, we'd never know. I don't think those are public records. The initial funding would have been the first few months, probably till TII came out. All in all, I believe Michael to have been and still very much, financially fit. He probably didn't need to find funding in the first place. We have mentioned some big company names with potential involvement. The risk of being accused of insurance fraud would be the last thing he needed. Wouldn't it be ironic if the research we have done here, finding out exactly "what went to UCLA" actually caused any life insurance policy to be voided completely? Therefore negating the entire "death" publicly once and for all......ah, the stuff of dreams.
I guess only time will tell....there are so many avenues of thought to explore....I find myself going in all directions....sorry for the meandering post.
Blessings Always
Post by: Andrea on November 25, 2012, 02:02:34 PM
MJ looking pretty alive in that pic. Good color in those cheeks.
Agreed, Live MJ has not been ruled out.
I thought the biggest hurdle to Live MJ was that the staff was dismissed before bringing the stretcher down. If it was Live MJ, they could have seen that because that's exactly what they would expect to see. A dummy with Live MJ in accompaniment in disguise, on the other hand, they might notice, considering they worked in close proximity with this man every day. A different dead person, again, they might notice.
However, how would they notice anything that emergency personnel wouldn't notice either? All staff would see was a stretcher surrounded by 3 bodyguards, 4 paramedics, and 1 Murray being hurried down the stairs, out the door, and into the waiting ambulance. It's not as if they would be allowed to "say goodbye". I've been in situations where I have been at the scene where someone is being taken away on stretcher into an ambulance, and with all the paramedics around and med equipment, I haven't been able to get a good long look at what's on the stretcher, even when I KNOW what's on the stretcher.
Regardless, staff being dismissed is alleged via rumor and supported by brief clip of a person walking out of Carrolwood gates on Hollywood TV video @the scene. So rumor suggests it and brief clip of a woman walking out of gates leads us to believe that what TS says is true, and therefore we accept that this is a giant hurdle that negates entire theories?
Hmm.
Just a quick thought before I head out for a while.... the staff being dismissed from the house works for any of the theories. Assuming that not all household staff is in on it, the fewer witnesses the better, no matter what was on the stretcher. The more people who see the activity, the more statements needed, police interviews, etc. Best just to get them out of the way before it's go time.
Post by: flory24 on November 25, 2012, 02:05:24 PM
I found those links about Michael Jackson life insurance policy.
http://www.godirect.co.uk/insurance-news/michael-jacksons-insurance-policy-settled.php
Michael Jackson's life insurance policy was taken out in 2002.
Life insurance is recommended for people with dependants as an ideal way of ensuring their financial futures are protected in the event of their death.
http://www.hollyscoop.com/michael-jackson/michael-jacksons-life-insurance-to-pay-out-3-million.html
Michael Jackson's life insurance company has agreed to pay his estate $3 million dollars.
John Branca and John McClain, who are the temporary administrators of Jackson's will, are said to have cashed in the contract, winning $3 million for the Michael's estate.
Initial reports indicated Jackson's policy was worth up to $20 million, but according to TMZ, Branca and McClain were in a rush to finalize the deal, so they settled for just $3 million.
They were in a rush to settle because they were reportedly worried that the insurance company would refuse to pay anything if an autopsy report determined drugs were the cause of death.
And it sounds like they settled just in time. On Friday new toxicology reports surfaced and according to multiple law enforcement sources, Propofol wasn’t the only drug found in Michael Jackson’s system at the time of his death.
The report indicted that alprazolam, which is better known as Xanax, was also found. This drug is commonly used to treat patients with anxiety.
But it’s still believed that Propofol, according to a source, the "front and center in terms of why [Jackson] died."
In related news, if it is eventually concluded that drugs were in fact the cause of Michael’s death, it may mean bad news for AEG as drugs were not covered in the life insurance policy.
They took out a $17.5 million life insurance policy with Lloyd’s of London on Michael Jackson for his London comeback. His estate would only get a payout if his death was deemed "accidental." So it sounds like Branca and McClain settled his personal life insurance policy just in the nick of time!
http://www.metrolyrics.com/2009-michael-jacksonaposs-life-insurance-policy-paid-out-news.html
Michael Jackson's life insurance policy paid out
Added July 13, 2009
Taken July 13, 2009
Copyright Splash News
Michael Jackson's life insurance policy has already been paid out, court documents show.
Court filings state the administrators of the pop king's estate have received his life insurance proceeds. The filings were made on Friday in Los Angeles but are redacted and do not indicate how much the policy paid out. The filings state that Jackson's three children have received funds earmarked for them by way of a trust being handled by special administrators of the estate.
The filings concern funds for the children on top of a petition for a monthly stipend for them. Another filing indicates Katherine Jackson is also eligible for benefits from the life insurance policy. The estate's administrators are also seeking an allowance for Katherine, who was granted custody of the children by a Los Angeles court on Monday.
http://www.probatelawyerblog.com/2011/06/michael-jackson-estate-faces-175-million-insurance-fight.html
http://backseatlawyer.blogspot.ro/2009/06/michael-jacksons-death-what-about-life.html
Post by: scorpionchik on November 25, 2012, 02:17:55 PM
It's just "awesome" to read how many "experts" are here of criminal, civil, insurance, etc. laws that build theories and make statements based on those laws yet they have no clue about.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 25, 2012, 02:29:22 PM
I found those links about Michael Jackson life insurance policy.
http://www.godirect.co.uk/insurance-news/michael-jacksons-insurance-policy-settled.php
Michael Jackson's life insurance policy was taken out in 2002.
Life insurance is recommended for people with dependants as an ideal way of ensuring their financial futures are protected in the event of their death.
http://www.hollyscoop.com/michael-jackson/michael-jacksons-life-insurance-to-pay-out-3-million.html
Michael Jackson's life insurance company has agreed to pay his estate $3 million dollars.
John Branca and John McClain, who are the temporary administrators of Jackson's will, are said to have cashed in the contract, winning $3 million for the Michael's estate.
Initial reports indicated Jackson's policy was worth up to $20 million, but according to TMZ, Branca and McClain were in a rush to finalize the deal, so they settled for just $3 million.
They were in a rush to settle because they were reportedly worried that the insurance company would refuse to pay anything if an autopsy report determined drugs were the cause of death.
And it sounds like they settled just in time. On Friday new toxicology reports surfaced and according to multiple law enforcement sources, Propofol wasn’t the only drug found in Michael Jackson’s system at the time of his death.
The report indicted that alprazolam, which is better known as Xanax, was also found. This drug is commonly used to treat patients with anxiety.
But it’s still believed that Propofol, according to a source, the "front and center in terms of why [Jackson] died."
In related news, if it is eventually concluded that drugs were in fact the cause of Michael’s death, it may mean bad news for AEG as drugs were not covered in the life insurance policy.
They took out a $17.5 million life insurance policy with Lloyd’s of London on Michael Jackson for his London comeback. His estate would only get a payout if his death was deemed "accidental." So it sounds like Branca and McClain settled his personal life insurance policy just in the nick of time!
http://www.metrolyrics.com/2009-michael-jacksonaposs-life-insurance-policy-paid-out-news.html
Michael Jackson's life insurance policy paid out
Added July 13, 2009
Taken July 13, 2009
Copyright Splash News
Michael Jackson's life insurance policy has already been paid out, court documents show.
Court filings state the administrators of the pop king's estate have received his life insurance proceeds. The filings were made on Friday in Los Angeles but are redacted and do not indicate how much the policy paid out. The filings state that Jackson's three children have received funds earmarked for them by way of a trust being handled by special administrators of the estate.
The filings concern funds for the children on top of a petition for a monthly stipend for them. Another filing indicates Katherine Jackson is also eligible for benefits from the life insurance policy. The estate's administrators are also seeking an allowance for Katherine, who was granted custody of the children by a Los Angeles court on Monday.
http://www.probatelawyerblog.com/2011/06/michael-jackson-estate-faces-175-million-insurance-fight.html
http://backseatlawyer.blogspot.ro/2009/06/michael-jacksons-death-what-about-life.html
when people read pieces of info from here and there, it is confusing and not always correct. People need to understand what "life" insurance policy is being talked about.
Life insurance policy has not been paid by Lloyds rather is in a lawsuit agaist AEG and Michael's Estate for drug related condition, not signed by MJ, etc. reasons. This is a "key" person life insurance we are talking about that is different from "personal" type of life insurance. To distingush those two, the question is WHO IS THE BENEFICIARY on the policy.....
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 25, 2012, 03:09:15 PM
Mr. Schwarzenegger is one of the key figures we tend to forget.QuoteCalifornia approves nurse-assisted suicidehttp://www.wnd.com/2008/10/76713/#ixzz1K83jWxpH (http://www.wnd.com/2008/10/76713/#ixzz1K83jWxpH)
Schwarzenegger signs bill authorizing dehydration, starvation of patients
Posted: October 02, 2008
12:30 am Eastern
© 2011 WorldNetDaily
California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger
SACRAMENTO – California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has officially approved an assisted suicide measure allowing nurses to sedate, dehydrate and starve depressed or confused individuals they consider to be "terminally ill."
The bill, sponsored by Assemblywoman Patty Berg, a Democrat, passed the California Assembly Aug. 28, and the state Senate Aug. 20. It was signed by the governor yesterday.
The legislation, called the "Terminal Patients' Right to Know End of Life Options Act," or AB 2747, passed by a 42 to 34 vote. An Aug. 20 Senate vote of 21 to 17 ushered the measure to the governor's desk for signing.
Randy Thomasson, chief of the Campaign for Children and Families, said the legislation is dangerous and should have been vetoed by Gov. Schwarzenegger.
"AB 2747 pushes suicide through the back door at the hands of non-physicians taking advantage of depressed patients," he said in a statement. "AB 2747 cheapens the value of human life by endorsing suicide as an option."
The measure allows physician assistants and nurses to decide whether a person is "terminally ill" and deprive them of basic life-sustaining necessities such as food and water.
"Depressed patients who succumb to this pressure will be drugged unconscious and die from dehydration, usually within five to 10 days," Thomasson said. "Nothing in the bill prohibits this horror."
Thomasson said Berg "deceptively changed" the bill to appear that "voluntarily stopping of eating and drinking" and "palliative sedation" no longer were on a list of "symptom management" options.
(Story continues below)
"But the final bill "is broad enough to easily include these suicide techniques," he said.
According to the CCF, Assemblyman Van Tran of Costa Mesa warned the bill has no protections for patients "who could be mistakenly diagnosed as 'terminally ill' but would have many, many full years of life ahead."
"The bill does not otherwise attempt to expressly define terminal illness that each of these health care professionals would have to diagnose to trigger the offer of counseling end of life option," Tran said. "It is not clear why nurse practitioners and physician assistants could make such a significant diagnosis. It is further not clear from the bill how making such significant diagnoses on a case-by-case basis can be done by such practitioners and assistants based on so-called 'standardized procedures and protocols' not further defined by the bill. The potential effect of AB 2747 is extremely broad and could cause irrevocable harm."
As WND reported, state Sen. Sam Aanestad, R-Grass Valley, urged Schwarzenegger to veto the bill as well.
He said the legislation was sponsored by a group called Compassion and Choices, which formerly was known as the Hemlock Society and has advocated for physician-assisted suicide legislation in the past. A founder of the group has praised Dr. Jack Kevorkian for helping more than 100 people die.
Dozens of individuals and groups representing cancer patients, minority rights groups, members of religious communities and hospitals spoke before the Senate Health Committee in opposition to the idea. Also, numerous hospitals and other organizations opposed the measure, includeing California Disability Alliance, California Family Council, California Nurses for Ethical Standards, Mercy San Juan Medical Center, Sierra Nevada Memorial Hospital and St. Mary's Medical Center in San Francisco.
Read more: California approves nurse-assisted suicide
Positive: get closer to self-determined death keeping dignity in mind.
Negative: this could be a first step towards euthanasia.
Drug the depressed, then starve / dehydrate them to death. Take involuntary detention and involuntary treatment in a neuro-psychiatric clinic first and connect the dots.
I remember this news report about dr. Jack Kevorkian on dr. Conrad Murray :
Quote
Dr. Kevorkian: Michael Jackson "Got What He Wanted"http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/03/dr-kevorkian-michael-jack_n_276285.html
First Posted: 10/19/09 06:12 AM ET Updated: 05/25/11 03:00 PM ET
Dr. Jack Kevorkian defended Michael Jackson's doctor Conrad Murray, who is the sole target of the investigation into the late pop star's death by injection.
On Wednesday the now-paroled Kevorkian, 81, told Neil Cavuto, "I don't think he was malicious. Murder is defined as malice aforethought... Did the doctor have forethought? I doubt it."
Murray says he injected Jackson with heavy sedatives including the anesthetic propofol at the singer's request.
"Maybe Jackson craved these things so much he pestered the doctor until he got it." Kevorkian added, "The patient got what he wanted. He is the one who said yes or no to take a drug."
As for his own life, Kevorkian says he has "no regrets." The Jackson part begins at the 9:30-remaining mark in the second video below, which is his entire interview over two segments.
Dr. Jack Kevorkian: http://truth-out.org/news/item/1428:dr-jack-kevorkian-dies-at-83-backed-assisted-suicide
http://news.yahoo.com/conrad-murray-unintentional-dr-kevorkian-190700267.html
The dummy/corpse/dwd discussion surely brought attention on the Death With Dignity issue and also awareness about the consequences of legalization of physician-assisted suicide: an improvement of the human/patient rights but vs abuse/misuse of this right: the patient's and physician's right may easily be 'confused'.
Quote
Ethicist: Mass. should legalize physician-assisted suicidehttp://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/01/14837180-ethicist-mass-should-legalize-physician-assisted-suicide?lite
By Art Caplan, Ph.D.
Of the numerous ballot initiatives that will be decided at the state level on Tuesday, none is more hotly contested than the Massachusetts bill to decide whether to legalize physician-assisted suicide. The citizens of Massachusetts, my home state, should vote to legalize.
The proposed measure allows terminally ill patients to be given access to lethal drugs. A terminally ill patient is defined as someone with six months or less to live. The patient’s terminal diagnosis and mental competency must be attested to by two doctors. Patients would have to make a request to their doctor twice orally and once in writing. The written request would have to be witnessed.
Yet even with such restrictive conditions, opponents of the proposal say doctors should never, as a matter of professional ethics, intentionally hasten the death of one of their patients, even one who is terminally ill. The codes of medicine and nursing ethics reject helping patients die.
Many professional organizations, including the American Medical Association, agree. The AMA "strongly opposes any bill to legalize physician-assisted suicide" because the practice is "fundamentally inconsistent with the physician's role as healer." The Massachusetts Medical Society also opposes the bill. “Allowing physicians to participate in assisted suicide would cause more harm than good,” Dr. Lynda M. Young, the society’s past president told Massachusetts legislators earlier this year. “Physician-assisted suicide is fundamentally incompatible with the physician’s role as healer."
Some disability groups and religious organizations are fighting hard to get a "no" on the “Question 2,” initiative as well. They believe that the terminally ill who are disabled deserve better palliative care and emotional support rather than a prescription of deadly medicine. They also worry that people may feel compelled or coerced into choosing death because their care is expensive, they see themselves as a burden to others or because relatives are thinking that they do not want to spend the grandchildren's college tuition to keep grandpop going in a nursing home or ICU. Given the current push to contain medical costs, the biggest fear is that the vulnerable will get the bum’s rush to the hereafter.
These objections are concerning, but not convincing. Two states have already enacted legislation very similar to that proposed in Massachusetts. The disturbing scenarios against legalizing physician-assisted suicide for the terminally ill are not supported by what has happened in Oregon and Washington.
Although there are requests from the dying for lethal pills, few ask and almost no one takes them. In Washington in 2010, 68 physicians wrote lethal prescriptions for 87 patients, 51 of whom took the pills and died. The rest never took the pills. That is an incredibly tiny number relative to all those who are terminally ill in Washington. The Oregon experience is the same.
The critics are worrying about a shift to mass suicide inspired by heartless doctors and families pressuring dying patients to end it. That has simply not happened in Oregon or Washington. There is no persuasive evidence that the dying are being rushed, duped or bullied to die by anyone.
The interesting thing is that many people find it more empowering to have the ability to end their lives if they want to do so. Many say the ability to choose gives them the strength not to do so.
The question about a doctor’s involvement can be overcome by giving each physician the right of conscience to be involved or not. Some doctors will want nothing to do with assisted suicide. Others will. Given the polarizing nature of physician-assisted suicide, the decision ought to be each physician’s to make. Medicine does not have to be all in or all out.
The proposed Massachusetts law is very restricted and contains important safeguards. Experience in other states shows little reason for worry about abuse or misuse. Instead the more people who are going to die know they can end their lives sooner if they choose, the more many of them fight harder to live. Making assisted suicide possible in Massachusetts rightly puts a choice in the hands of a very few who may not use it, but value having it
LOVE
Post by: Adi on November 25, 2012, 04:15:24 PM
Post by: Adi on November 25, 2012, 06:19:25 PM
About it being a rumour that the house staff were told to leave that day of June 25th....I thought it was Kai Chase who testified at the trial that they were told to leave? However I will have to go back and rewatch her testimony to check.
Ok - I found the part of the testimony of Kai Chase and it is NOT a rumour that the house staff and her were asked to leave.
Security asked her and the house keepers to leave. Here is the part where she is talking about it from around 12:47 to about 13:13 in the video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pl7mSnxjl0&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
Post by: paula-c on November 25, 2012, 06:23:54 PM
Did TS mention Sharon Sydney in one of his posts? I seem to remember her name coming up at one time. From the followers, we know that things were different on the night before June 25th. Sharon was camped out front of the Carolwood mansion all night and she said there were a lot of cars there and something covert looked to be going on. Other follower fans have reported that MJ's security was increased and seemed to be calling the shots of when and where he could stop and chat with the followers in the day(s) before 'that' day. Sharon seems to have beat the ambulance to the hospital and she happened to see the body on the stretcher, and realized it was too short to be Michael. She had a conversation with Blount about it and he agreed with her then changed his story on the witness stand to her dismay. She states she was threatened with arrest by the security detail accompanying the stretcher. That is if we can believe her testimony. But what would she gain from going public with this? Besides ridicule, and most of us know what that feels like.
The reason I'm bringing this up is that we are looking at the events that transpired on the 25th June, when if we take Sharon's tale into account, clearly something was going down at Carolwood the night before.
Anyone interested can read Sharon's story here
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html)
A body can also fit with MJ's metaphorical hoax journey we've been experiencing these last 3+ years. Patterned not only after Elvis' hoax death, but after many biblical types (thinking of Front and the Red Sea crossing also Jermaine in an interview saying Michael was like Moses and he was his mouthpiece as Aaron was...just to name a few examples] Just as Yeshua also had a real body that died and was buried, I think there was a real body, but that tomb at Forest Lawn is empty as well.
I don't know what to think, but I drew the attention this part of the autopsy report, the thymus gland and the sick with AIDS
Quote
Endocrine System:
1.- The Thymus is not identified. [this report gets bizarre page by page, apparently the coroner was not able to find the thymus, so the dead body is missing his thymus. The thymus is a specialized organ of the immune system. In lupus patients the whole immune system becomes over active attacking the body’s tissues & organs. However in HIV AIDS patients the thymus will be damaged to the point that it cannot be identified in the body. Another cause for missing the thymus is a very rare birth defect called the Digeorge Syndrome, however people suffering from this syndrome have certain facial features that make them stand out, very much similar to Down Syndrome. We know Michael didn’t have Digeorge Syndrome, there’s no mention of the deceased body having HIV, so why is the thymus missing? I can’t find a medical explanation for it!!!!
It is worth mentioning that removal of Thymus is highly unconventional & dangerous, the only time that a surgeon might decide to remove a thymus is in infants with sever heart defects that require heart surgery, the thymus in these cases sometimes have to be removed in order for the surgeon to have an unobstructed access to the heart. however this is not the case in older children or adults. Another very rare case that requires removal of thymus, which again I insist is very rare & it's a tough choice for a surgeon to make, is if a patient is suffering from Myasthenia gravis. Myasthenia gravis is a neuro-muscular disease leading to severe fluctuation of muscles & weakness & fatiguability. Again not all the cases of Myasthenia gravis require removal of thymus. Removal of thymus bears sever neurological side effects & it is a contributing factor in death of HIV patients. So why is the body missing the Thymus?]
Post by: marumjj on November 25, 2012, 06:57:33 PM
IMO using a dummy could not be sustainable. TS we said, you use a real body, this fits the verdict of "alleged victim" as they "assumed" that the person is MJ.
The UCLA has on staff Dr. Lance Becker specialist in emergency medicine, A world-renowned surgeon at the UCLA Medical Center has pioneered a way to revive people That Would Have MOST doctors long written off, Including a woman Whose heart had stopped for 2 1/2 hours.
If UCLA has this professional because MJ did not address?
in an interview asked Dr: Michael Jackson could have been saved?
to which the doctor responds: It is impossible to know. Doctors at the hospital worked on him for an hour. The UCLA expert, cardiothoracic surgeon Dr. Gerald Buckberg, said he was not personally involved in the treatment of Jackson, and little is known about what preceded it.
"We have no idea when he died versus when he was found," Buckberg said in a telephone interview.
or just was not in the plan to save it.
Post by: bec on November 25, 2012, 08:04:03 PM
CA law is complicated, not always interpreted the way people read because there is always opposite meaning backed up by different case.
It's just "awesome" to read how many "experts" are here of criminal, civil, insurance, etc. laws that build theories and make statements based on those laws yet they have no clue about.
Yes, you are right, of course, when it really comes down to it. We ought to just give up n throw in the towel on this because none of us are qualified to accurately speculate on the information we have at hand. But we have been asked to do this, so we try our best.
If TS gave specifics and facts perhaps we could take his word for it a little better. All he offers us is speculation and conjecture that seems contradictory to the available information. It doesn't seem right... but what do we know? We are just lay people who happen to (still) give a shit.
All I know for sure is if TS is guessing, we can kiss closure happening on this anytime soon goodbye.
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 25, 2012, 10:09:36 PM
I cannot get out of my mind that UCLA is a multifaceted Organization. On their website ucla.edu their tab selection is as follows:
Quote
ABOUT
ACADEMICS
ADMISSIONS
UCLA IN THE COMMUNITY
THE ARTS
CAMPUS LIFE
HEALTH SYSTEM
RESEARCH
ATHLETICS
There was an interview in February 2011 where the kids said they had private film classes by a UCLA Professor.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/exclusive-michael-jacksons-kids-future-showbiz/story?id=12988367#.ULLdMGcpOec
Quote
Jackson's mother, Katherine, told Roberts that her son took film-making classes with Prince. "We had a teacher from UCLA come to our house and we would do film classes there," Prince said. And when we were in Ireland, we would film a couple of movies with him, too."
Further back is Peter Guber. Mr Guber wrote the book Tell to Win". It was released March 1, 2011.
The following is an excerpt from the book, ‘Tell to Win’ by Peter Guber:
Quote
Once you’ve got your hero, what gets the emotion moving? What holds us spellbound, begging for more? Michael Jackson taught me in no uncertain terms, the answer is drama.
http://www.legendarymichaeljackson.nl/?p=4343
In another article called "Power of Stories, Persuasive Storytelling" Mr Guber says it a little differently:
Quote
Michael Jackson story
in the 90s he was phenomenally successful, and he wanted to produce a movie. Everybody knew he was a great musician, but he wanted to produce a movie. But the question they asked Michael Jackson was: Well, we know you are the best in the world when it comes to music, but what do you know about drama? Michael Jackson replied: “Well, come over to my house.”
Guber went to his house. And MJ showed him large snake in a terrarium. And there was a little white mouse trembling in the corner. And MJ said: “The snake only eats alive food. You can’t feed it dead food.” And Guber asked: “Well, why doesn’t it strike?” and MJ replied: “Well, it likes the game, it likes the process, it likes the drama.”
That whole article on the snake was fascinating even though I've read it before. What caught my attention this time was that the meeting between Jackson and Guber was in 1991 which is around the time some of us believe MJ started his hoax project. Mr Guber first worked at Columbia pictures and successfully released several films. He also worked at Casablanca Record and Filmworks. In addition to film he also produced several television shows. He became Chairman of the Board and CEO of Sony Pictures Entertainment until he was asked to resign in 1994 after what seemed like a successful and profitable stint with Sony. It was during this time that he went to MJ's house and had the conversation about Michael wanting to produce films. Mr Guber is also a long time teacher at UCLA:
Quote
“It’s like a Seurat painting. Lots of dots,” said Mr. Guber, who talked of his wildly eclectic life in the sports and movie industries, as well as a decades-long commitment to teaching at the University of California, Los Angeles, and the dawning realization that something more than nervous energy held it all together.
“But the logic of it is clear to me now,” he said. That logic has to do with story, and how we are wired to organize our lives around it.
Quote
Like a Hollywood movie, he figured out, the stories that drive professional life — the narrative that is part of pitches, résumés, introductions and every conversation about business goals and achievements — work best when they are grounded in emotion. By and large, they require a hero. Dramatic tension and even a few props help.
One of the most effective pitches he ever fielded, he reports, came from Michael Jackson, who sought to prove he had the chops for movie-making with an exercise that involved feeding a live mouse to a snake.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/business/27steal.html?_r=0
By the way, several of the movies he's produced we have felt some connection to Michael.
Okay - so in that article about the snake Guber says he asked Dan Siegel at UCLA to help him understand from a neuroscientist perspective:
Quote
Back at UCLA, I asked Dan Siegel to help me understand from his perspective as a neuroscientist why people are so enthralled by drama. Siegel pointed out that emotions don’t occur spontaneously. Nor, as any actor knows, can they be summoned at will. Emotions have to be aroused. “And arousal gets heightened,” Siegel said, “when you realize, I don’t know if the mountain lion’s still there; I don’t know if the spaceship is going to get back; I’m not sure he’s going to win the race. You have to have tension between expectation and uncertainty. Emotional tension drives you to think it might go this way, but it might go that way, and that makes you wonder, what will happen next?”
Dr Dan Siegel is a hero in his own right and has authored some books on developing the mind. He also has online courses and a section on children:
https://www.mindsightinstitute.com/search&field_tags_tid=12
http://www.drdansiegel.com/
I will just say about this that we all know Michael is a well read and extremely intelligent man. It's not hard for me to imagine that he's crossed paths with this Dr Dan Siegel if only to read his books.
Lastly, Dr Richelle Cooper does not have a picture posted on the UCLA Medical website. Why is that? How do we know for sure that she is the real Dr Cooper? Perhaps who we saw on the stand was a fill in. Just thinking out loud.
So, in my mind it's highly possible that living in Hollywood some of these participants are also actors on the side. And, it's highly possible that just like movies are made about people and actors are used in their place the same thing happened here. Of course confidentiality contracts would have had to be signed but the UCLA connection goes back a long way and it's possible that the person on the gurney is just a dummy. UCLA knew in advance that this "production" would be taking place which is why they set off the fire alarm to clear the area. They didn't sign any death certificate, didn't stand to confirm MJ's d**th in the interview with Jermaine, and they posted the following - which is not a statement where they confirm MJ's d**th.
Quote
Statement on the death of Michael Jackson at UCLA Medical Center
By UCLA Newsroom June 25, 2009
The family of Michael Jackson made this brief statement available on June 25 at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center:
The legendary King of Pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25, 2009, at 2:26 p.m. It is believed he suffered cardiac arrest in his home. However, the cause of his death is unknown until results of the autopsy are known.
His personal physician, who was with him at the time, attempted to resuscitate Jackson, as did paramedics who transported him to Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center. Upon arriving at the hospital at approximately 1:14 p.m., a team of doctors, including emergency physicians and cardiologists, attempted to resuscitate him for a period of more than one hour but were unsuccessful.
Jackson’s family requests that the media respect their privacy during this tragic period of time.
Video: Jermaine Jackson reading statement and Michael Jackson's personal physician.
For more news, visit the UCLA Newsroom.
Well, that's all my brain has and it makes more sense to me than the DWD theory. Oh, and we already know that Harvey Levin has had acting parts in films playing a journalist and the coroner has also been linked to acting.
Blessings
Post by: bec on November 25, 2012, 11:04:50 PM
Great point about UCLA being more then a hospital. I never connected all those other UCLA programs with the hoax location of UCLA ER. My brain has been programmed to associate UCLA with hospital exclusively. You really thought outside the box!
Great story about the snake! That's certainly an interesting way of looking at the world, to say the least.
Quote
You have to have tension between expectation and uncertainty. Emotional tension drives you to think it might go this way, but it might go that way, and that makes you wonder, what will happen next?”
Great great great line! We're there, are we not?
You also have an excellent point about Dr. Richelle Cooper's appearance. When she took the witness stand in Murray's trial it was the first time we got to see what she looks like. Which could be very convenient.
Quote
UCLA knew in advance that this "production" would be taking place which is why they set off the fire alarm to clear the area. They didn't sign any death certificate, didn't stand to confirm MJ's d**th in the interview with Jermaine, and they posted the following - which is not a statement where they confirm MJ's d**th.
Another great point you made. Jermaine made the statement likely because no doctor wanted to "lie" to the world, or maybe MJ didn't want them to. Maybe he wanted Jermaine to do it because it was more emotional that way. Either way, you made me recall the answer the coroner gave Souza re: no doctor signing the DC, no real doctor would risk their reputation/career over signing a fake document.
Quote
And as skeptical as I've been with TS maybe he's just putting that out there in order to get conversation flowing again.
Or push us to do a better job. You're right.
Post by: ellyd on November 25, 2012, 11:25:01 PM
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 25, 2012, 11:25:30 PM
I have some other connections with UCLA, Michael, and Peter Guber that I'll post tomorrow after work. Right now I must be off to bed.
By the way, what hospital did the children donate MJ's art to? And, I remember in the very beginning stumbling upon a myspace account where one of MJ's musicians was friends with the coroner. I found that to be odd. After a while the link was removed.
You're right - great answer the coroner gave Souza. He may not have performed any autopsy at all. All we have is a fake photo and fake AR and that doesn't mean a real body was needed for it.
Going back real quick to the movie theory. The helicopter on the roof could easily be part of production (explains the open door while in flight) since UCLA is not only a medical facility.
After reading about the mouse and snake story as well as Mr Guber consulting with a physician on staff at UCLA pertaining to film and acting I think I will sleep better. Hugs.
Post by: bec on November 25, 2012, 11:59:26 PM
And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Interesting wording, TS.
So then, in your theory, what is the motive for using a real dead person? If in the event both dying men backed out, a dummy could be used no problem, then why not just use a dummy in the first place?
Such an explanation would only raise far more suspicions, regarding who knew in advance that MJ would die on this very day—and had a 2009 MJ dummy already made, and handy, just for a distraction tactic??? Also, for those who think that an old MJ dummy would’ve been used on 6-25-09, why? All the years and money spent preparing for this hoax, and then not bother to make and use a new dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009?
For that exact reason, and because it's hilarious, and because in 3 years of hoax, everything points to the bad era, why not the dummy too? They used a late 1980's dummy for the ambulance pic so why not use the same one? It already exists and is already on scene. Why bother with 2 dummies? No one is going to really see it anyway, maybe just a passing glimpse. Besides that, we've already seen one late 80's dummy, unless one wants to assume there were two, it's best not to deviate too far from what we are able to witness directly. It's irrelevant anyway whether the dummy was of late 80's MJ or present day MJ.
Both OR and WA statistics show that about 80% to 90% of DWD patients were also hospice patients {see links above, for “unknown” statistics}. Didn't the paramedics say that it looked like a hospice patient? If these paramedics were not in the hoax, then we can be certain that it was a real patient (a dummy would not look like a hospice patient, nor would a dummy fool many if any paramedics). And if they were in the hoax, what would be the motive for lying? To give a clue that it was NOT a dummy, when it really WAS a dummy? If that were actually the case, it would seem reasonable to ask who is dumber: the dummy itself, or the dummy giving so-called clues?
They're not lying. They're acting. I don't follow why it is dumb to hand out false leads. This is a game. Part of the game play is to determine lies from BS. We have been tested many times, by yourself as well, so I don't understand why you would use this line of logic to attempt to debunk a theory.
But speaking of motive... the one for using a dead body :icon_question:
Ps. @voice; everything about me is far from brilliant but I appreciate the thought behind your compliment. Thanks.
Post by: Andrea on November 26, 2012, 12:40:17 AM
The dead body theory was never thoroughly debunked, I think TS is helping with that in a roundabout way. Do we think for ourselves or what TS tells us to think, no matter how many holes it pokes in the story?
Post by: ellyd on November 26, 2012, 12:55:38 AM
Quote
You have to have tension between expectation and uncertainty. Emotional tension drives you to think it might go this way, but it might go that way, and that makes you wonder, what will happen next?”
Looking backwards, we try to determine which way the whole story went, trying to fill the gaps with potentially fitting pieces.
Just in addition, we have to find out what the overall title of the story is. LOL
Could be looking like this:
(http://bluebook.state.or.us/images/kids/games/puzzle.gif)
or like this
(http://www.mgcpuzzles.com/mgcpuzzles/pro-pictures-images-of/irregular-edge-puzzles/butterfly-jigsaw-puzzle-1T.jpg)
or like this
(http://www.mgcpuzzles.com/mgcpuzzles/images/Corporate-Jigsaw-Puzzle/Corporate-Party-puzzle-T.jpg)
This time the master is enjoying the show.
So do I. It wouldn't be as much fun as it is if we wouldn't have many paths through the forest to choose from.
Who knows whether we already got pretty close and are chased away from the bounty box for some (our) purposes.
Post by: Adi on November 26, 2012, 02:38:13 AM
.................... Do we think for ourselves or what TS tells us to think...........
I_deed..........so we should ignore the BAM by 1/1/2013......or perhaps we could just be selective in the "bits" we like to hear or that TS tells us to think.
Post by: MJonmind on November 26, 2012, 03:16:33 AM
Ah, there's the rub, when do we believe him and when not...?.................... Do we think for ourselves or what TS tells us to think...........I_deed..........so we should ignore the BAM by 1/1/2013......or perhaps we could just be selective in the "bits" we like to hear or that TS tells us to think?
Voice, interesting bunny trail, and …strange thing MJ said to Peter Guber.
Also, is Muscles/Michael going after his prey who is/are shaking in their boots; is he too enjoying the game? I mean just look at him. :affraid:
(http://www.legendarymichaeljackson.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Michael-6.jpg)
I have long thought MJ is behind this hoax as a story-teller, knowing how to keep us craving to know more. That is also TS, hmm... :Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile
Bec, yes that part of what TS said seems to be very open for his slippery excuses later. But he wants us to know that 2 DWD patients were totally ready and available to be part of the hoax death for MJ, even if they ultimately were not used in the end. So there again story-teller is making sure we know the story could surely go in either direction, which heightens our desire to know what will happen. But what would have been the clincher for the FBI to make the decision--only if both DWD's backed out? MJ was known to have helped heal many people even incurable cancer; could he not have brought healing to the intended replacement, and the man started feeling stronger. Aww shucks, both patients got better and didn't want to take their meds, so the FBI went with plan B-- dummy! Well, you never know! Wouldn't that be a twist to the story!
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 26, 2012, 04:02:14 AM
.................... Do we think for ourselves or what TS tells us to think...........
I_deed..........so we should ignore the BAM by 1/1/2013......or perhaps we could just be selective in the "bits" we like to hear or that TS tells us to think.
So which bit do we believe, the bit about MJ BAMMING by 1/1/2013 or do we believe the fact that he won't. Or, do we not believe TS when he says if MJ doesn't BAM by 1/1/2013 then he is a fake informer....AHAHAHA...but nar, looking forward to the next few weeks, I believe in a BAM, but I don't expect it to be the BAM we are all hoping for.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 26, 2012, 06:05:39 AM
Ok new take. I’m going to go back to the day of June 25th 2009, just that day without taking into account the days before June 25th or the days after, besides testimony. I have let go of all perceptions as to not make way for assumptions. For example, like how it was said MJ used a dummy for his ambo prank, where a dummy would ride in the back of an ambulance. Usually I’d assume that a dummy was used as if MJ was giving us a clue or something but I’m not going to base my theory on things such as that. In saying that though, I don’t discount a dummy either, maybe MJ did all these things, like using a dummy to set up clues or he is experimenting with different possibilities to make the hoax airtight, so he could see what would work and what wouldn’t. I mean it’s better to play out the possibilities then to just theorise.
Anyway so in my NO MJ approach I believe the Illusion took effect on June 25th 2009 (meaning Live MJ left that day and whatever was on the stretcher was taken in the ambo). To me it would seem easier for MJ to leave on June 25th then to go before or after, because as we know MJ would probably eventually have to leave Carolwood as his children moved out and he couldn’t really leave before because I don’t think MJ would trust a double to stay at the house, let alone trust that no one would know the double wasn’t MJ.
But also another possibility is the tunnel. I remember a discussion a long time ago about a tunnel going from Carolwood to Elvis’ L.A home, is that true? I mean it is possible, MJ had secret compartments inside Neverland. This also begs the question why did he decide to stay at Carolwood. I don’t know why he chose Carolwood, was it because Elvis’ house was across from it and he wanted to make a correlation between the two of them (in terms of the death hoax)? Or because there was a secret tunnel that he could use to get out without having to actually walk out of the house.
CORPSE THEORY
Now in my theory I think a corpse would be the way to go, it has less risk whether the medics were in on it or not. The only two problems I could think of from that is.
-Rigamortis and
-Paramedics or others not recognizing MJ.
A corpse theory is basically the same scenario as MJ ACTUALLY DYING. Also I think I remember the medics saying that MJ was DOA, even though Murray said he felt a faint pulse. So MJ did kind of die (or someone died), instead it was a patient that maybe died from similar circumstances, that were brought out in the trial.
Now if you can somehow combat Rigamortis and the corpse appearance to look like MJ (maybe through Prosthetics), then medics, UCLA staff and Coroner wouldn’t need to be in on it, maybe just the Coroner at the most.
Now that I think of it maybe Murray was not late in calling 911, maybe he had to time it right so it would appear that the time of death was accurate (Rigamortis of the corpse). I mean Ambulance 71 station is close to MJ’s Carolwood house and not too far from UCLA so MJ would need a house that would be quick in getting to Carolwood and quick in getting to UCLA so the corpse would still be somewhat ‘fresh’.
But what I don’t get is, how did they get the corpse in without anyone knowing, before June 25th or on the day? Maybe paramedics are in on it and brought it to Carolwood. They left the corpse in the ambo, went up to get MJ, then they took MJ him down on the stretcher (as the corpse), then he could get away to his destination or disguise himself as one of the medics, then the paramedics could take the corpse on the stretcher to UCLA. Or maybe Live MJ went to UCLA, but they did a switch of a real corpse to go to the Coroner and helicopter.
Ok let’s look at the corpse theory a little bit more in terms of potential risks such as Rigamortis and appearance. Can you somehow delay or manipulate the time of death? In relation to the appearance, MJ staff and fans would be able to tell if the person in the stretcher was MJ or not. But again who knows what MJ looked like, I mean in the media MJ is renowned for changing his face all the time, from black to white, his nose etc. as they say…so why would it be a surprise if he was skinny, pale or looked different (without the supposed wig, makeup and tattooed eyebrows the media has claimed MJ had). Even in the life of another celebrity, one day you seem them all glammed up with makeup then the next without any makeup they are barely recognizable. Even with the Marilyn Monroe autopsy photo, you couldn’t even recognize her, it didn’t look like her, even though this was obviously maybe a few days to weeks after she died.
Why I wouldn’t use a dummy
If this was my hoax and I used a dummy on the way to the hospital, I’d be very very worried; you don’t know what could happen on the way. If MJ had contingency plans then why would he use a dummy? What if something happened, like some car crashing into the ambo, it would be GAME OVER.
But with a dummy you don’t need to worry about the risk when using a corpse. As you can make a dummy appear however you want it to and Rigamortis will obviously not be a downside to using a dummy. But this will allow more hoax players, which is fine, it TAKES OUT MOST OF THE RISK WHICH WOULD BE MORE IMPORTANT TO MINIMIZE THEN MINIMIZING THE HOAX PLAYERS. But if MJ wants a contingency plan at EVERY HAZARD a dummy wouldn’t make that possible. He only gets ONE day, ONE chance, ONE opportunity and NO ROOM for error.
WHAT I DO BELIEVE
Using more than one ‘MJ’ (Dummy, corpse or MJ) would be extremely risky if used on the same day, one could only be used at a time especially going in the ambo, like how would you get rid of the other bodies if you continuingly swapping? But having said that, I do believe a dummy was used ‘the other da…’ and Live MJ and corpse was used on June 25th 2009.
But who has to be in on the hoax if a dummy or corpse was used? Anyone who saw or came into contact with ‘MJ’?
LOOKING AT THE DIFFERENT SCENES
If we look at the different scenes;
House - Using anyone (Dummy, Live MJ, Corpse etc would be fine, even though it would require 0-ALL paramedics to be in on it).
Ambo trip to UCLA - No body would definitely not work
Coroner and helicopter ride – No body and Live MJ would not work
STING COURT
Why does it need to be a sting? I mean the only thing that seems like the sting could be about, is the pharmaceuticals/drugs sector. I know that these issues are a big deal, but why is it MJ’s ‘Vendetta’? Did MJ make a deal with the FBI? Like a trade of something, e.g. FBI wanted to use MJ for a big sting that only MJ could make happen since he is this big famous celebrity and in turn he gets resources and legal coverage from the FBI for his hoax.
Anyway when a sting happens isn’t it usually something that involves getting the perpetrator/offender in the process of the incident? I mean this trial started and finished without any sting, without the arrest of a perpetrator/offender.
I mean why did MJ fake his death? It couldn’t have been for a sting or for reasons other than he was in danger. The sting seems to me like a roadblock for MJ in order to get what he wanted and in order to carry out this hoax. I mean anyone is allowed to fake their death (I don’t mean disappear) but MJ made it look like he died, the only reason he could ‘die’ is if he was in danger, I mean why the sting? He could easily go to the FBI and say he’s in danger, fake his death, do Thriller II in the middle and then make a comeback without having a sting. MJ faked his death for multiple reasons, TPTB being I guess one of the most important, so I don’t see how a sting is appropriate/fitting/warranted?
What is the target, I can’t seem to even slightly put my finger on it, maybe the target has nothing to do with the sting court maybe this sting is a fake sting, like a diversion? Is it a sting hoax? I mean if anything you’d think MJ would carry out a sting on corruption, something to expose TPTB (in relation to when he was put on trial, including the police brutality he experienced). I also do agree that clearing his name is one of the focal points of the hoax, of course TPTB, EOW, NOW is the most important, globally, but clearing his name is personal for MJ and the most important in his mind.
Maybe the hoax court/sting is intertwined together on the same people media and fans, but I mean a sting is used in criminal activity so it seems unlikely, not so much for the media though, but targeting the media or fans in a sting wouldn’t work, you would need to target certain individuals. Or maybe this is somewhat a sting where no one will get charged criminally but it is more of a eye opener?
THE PARAMEDICS
If they waited 40 min before they left Carolwood that would mean the EMT’s would have to be in on it. Their job is to provide medical assistance and get to the hospital as fast as they can, waiting 40 minites doesn’t seem right.
Ok so Sean Mills roster got swapped on June 25th 2009 only? I mean If Blount had to be on that shift (because he is in on it) then wouldn’t Sean Mills need to be in on it too, what was the excuse of taking him off the shift, which just so happens to be the day MJ died?
Why did 2 other paramedics arrive in the room before Blount? So if he is on it, they would be too. The only purpose I would see for Blount to be in on it would be to kind of guide the scenario/script for the house/ambo bit. But I still don’t clearly see the reason for Blount to be in it at all.
I also don’t understand how Senneff went back into the room to get the equipment and Murray was still up there (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18688.msg323739.html#msg323739) I mean think about it, Senneff has to go get the equipment which he could of done when they took MJ down, or the other personnel could of done it, but then he goes up, sees Murray picking things up.
Was it the plan for Murray to go to the hospital? Because paramedics could have left him there, he was still in the room packing things up, why would they wait for him when there is a patient to attend to. And why didn’t Murray just go downstairs with the stretcher, why was he still up there, he could of packed things up before the paramedics came or when the paramedics were there (which wouldn’t of mattered because the storyline had to be that Murray would take the fall, plus Blount already said Murray was acting strange and erratic). If all this happened or not either way the medics would still need to be in on it.
Also I find it strange when Blount was talking about the tongue compressor he didn’t spell the word when asked and the he kept stumbling on his words, like all the technical things, unlike Senneff who seemed relaxed and professional, I don’t know if this is just nerves but it just seems to me that he isn’t a paramedic.
TS was saying that making it happen in real time would help with recall, nice flow without sounding scripted, but maybe this real time was to help someone like Blount with a 101 course on the basic routine of what a paramedic does when they have to save a life.
Why the need for 5 paramedics in the room? It seems a little bit risky to have them all there without one of them being in on it, I mean having 5 medics at a workplace seems normal but having 5 paramedics at a house does sound a bit excessive.
Senneff said he only recognised the patient later but surely he would have known when he was pressing Murray for answers on the patient.
The dummy theory would need all paramedics in the room to be in on it, and if that was the case, having 5 medics is a little unnecessary, I’d say have 2-3 in on it at the most (in the hoax and only ones in that room). Why are there so many people in each shift, is it usually two people who answer a call and go to a residence?
I think the reasons for Blount recognizing MJ and Senneff not recognizing MJ was because, like TS said, Blount assumed it was him because of the house, it’s automatically implied. Also Senneff probably didn’t recognize him because that is not how he thought MJ looked like.
I don’t think it’s a really big deal in the hoax about the fake ambo pic, people fake things all the time, the paramedics probably said nothing because it was not their place to say, they are just doing their job, they probably don’t get into that sort of ‘politics’. I mean the photo won’t raise suspicion if it was proved fake (like it already has) it’s just something that happens unfortunately. Also Blount was in the back of the ambo on the way back right? But we don’t see him in the photo. And who drove the ambo?
Just to clarify Jeff Mills who is the Cap. was in the room I think remember Senneff testified that he was there to provide assistance where need be, so I assume he was up there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zrccoOTZt7Y) Starting at 5:05, Also Seneff mentioned all the names of the paramedics and what they did like Blount, the Captain and Heron, but he doesn’t mention Goodwin, all he says is the paramedics is hooking up the EKG, he didn’t mention Goodwin’s name.
Maybe the reason why all the paramedics were not on the stand was because perhaps the DA office interviewed all paramedics but only needed the two because the other paramedics had pretty much the same story as Blount or Senneff, or what they said wasn’t as important or even the fact that they cannot be shown since they are FBI agents or one of them was MJ.
Maybe that’s why staff had to leave, MJ was in that room getting ready, to come down into the ambo, if the staff saw this extra man then they would be suspicious (because we don’t know for certain how many paramedics CAME to the house, all we know is who was AT the house).
Ok so just say Blount is definitely not FBI, now he happened to change shifts to that day, as could anyone of the other paramedics, which would mean if the paramedics or at least some were in on the hoax then we wouldn’t have a SHIFT CHANGE, MJ would make sure ALL paramedics where ready and available for June 25th 2009, but since Blount just happened to change shifts, is it ok to assume none of the paramedics are in on it?
Ok my post is all over the place, because these ins and outs of the hoax are so complicated I don’t know whether I’m coming or going...LOL
@TS will we know by November 29th, what happened on June 25th 2009, or at least the basics or will we know all of that and more after the BAM?
Post by: Adi on November 26, 2012, 06:55:19 AM
Ah, there's the rub, when do we believe him and when not...?.................... Do we think for ourselves or what TS tells us to think...........I_deed..........so we should ignore the BAM by 1/1/2013......or perhaps we could just be selective in the "bits" we like to hear or that TS tells us to think?
That is the million, kazillion, gazillion dollar question MJonline, especially since many (including myself) have asked for the silver platter recently, and this thread has been ongoing for over a year now, and we believed TS last year when he said it would be finished no later than November 29th even if he had to finish it himself (ahhhh....but I didn't say what year).... :icon_cool: I mean TS could have just as easily supported a dummy theory and the whole "game" would be completely different.
...
UYI...awesome post....have to re-read tomorrow - it's late here......I gather your uni exams have finished now as that must have taken you a while to compose? :icon_e_wink: :icon_albino: :icon_e_biggrin:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 26, 2012, 07:20:51 AM
Ah, there's the rub, when do we believe him and when not...?.................... Do we think for ourselves or what TS tells us to think...........I_deed..........so we should ignore the BAM by 1/1/2013......or perhaps we could just be selective in the "bits" we like to hear or that TS tells us to think?
That is the million, kazillion, gazillion dollar question MJonline, especially since many (including myself) have asked for the silver platter recently, and this thread has been ongoing for over a year now, and we believed TS last year when he said it would be finished no later than November 29th even if he had to finish it himself (ahhhh....but I didn't say what year).... :icon_cool: I mean TS could have just as easily supported a dummy theory and the whole "game" would be completely different.
...
UYI...awesome post....have to re-read tomorrow - it's late here......I gather your uni exams have finished now as that must have taken you a while to compose? :icon_e_wink: :icon_albino: :icon_e_biggrin:
Thanks Adi :icon_razz:, yeah finished a week and a half ago, I'm so happy, finally get to celebrate, I've FINISHED my course :multiplespotting: feels so surreal. I'll probably celebrate after I get my results to make it more official, BAM would be a pretty good celebratory intro though :icon_e_wink:
Post by: wishingstar on November 26, 2012, 07:34:08 AM
Have a fantastic day!!!!
LOVE
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 26, 2012, 07:47:40 AM
Yes, awesome post UYI.....definitely time for :multiplespotting: congrats on the exams!
Have a fantastic day!!!!
LOVE
Thank you so much Wishing, I appreciate it...hope your day is as radiant as your posts :icon_e_smile:
Post by: curls on November 26, 2012, 08:48:27 AM
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 26, 2012, 09:03:58 AM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 26, 2012, 09:04:19 AM
Or the other alternative is that MJ takes some sleeping pills, and then lays on the stretcher, now for me it's highly impossible cause Michael will have to escape to some place else once he reaches the hospital (or any place)..he can't be sleeping all the way!
Talking about corpse theory...the appearance of the corpse wouldn't really be an issue (as long as the corpse doesn't look ENTIRELY different) as discussed by many here.
What I'm thinking right now is how they could've brought in the corpse. If they had brought it inside the home the previous day (after it was thawed by the UCLA) how could they manage to keep it in a good condition? that would pose a challenge!
Now the dummy theory... it's very well known there were reports of 'e-Casanova' dying because probably the some news channel mistook e cas as being MJ...but can it be pointing out to the dummy theory? E-Casanova is an impersonator, I mean not intending to sound rude, he is a living 'dummy' and his news of 'dying' might even represent that a dummy was taken to UCLA
I don't remember which channel it was, I even don't have the screen-shot right now but this pic was used in the inset, while they were reporting MJ's 'death'
(http://grabilla.com/02b1a-19b96ff8-f9ab-434f-a076-3738b86618af.png) (http://grabilla.com/02b1a-19b96ff8-f9ab-434f-a076-3738b86618af.html)
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 26, 2012, 09:17:29 AM
Post by: bec on November 26, 2012, 09:19:01 AM
"Leftovers" indeed.
I eagerly await TS's reappearance on this thread.
To get silly for a minute,
"Are you ready for a real good time now,
are you ready for a real good treat,
they're'll be so much dancing/singing..."
Not sure where a dying hospice patient fits in there...
Post by: Andrea on November 26, 2012, 09:28:22 AM
I'm wondering if someone other than the TS we're used to actually wrote that DWD post. The more I read it the more it seems that he let his guard down or wrote it quickly, allowing in assumptions and un-thought-through arguments (these have been brought up already so I won't go into them all again), or it's someone else's style. I don't know, something just doesn't feel right.
That may have been done deliberately. TS' logic is usually pretty sound but not in this case. I think the DWD theory was put in place to finally debunk the corpse theory.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 26, 2012, 09:29:34 AM
@Thriller4ever......sorry off topic....... but your signature picture is not Michael but E' Casanova one of his impersonators.
i'm talking about e-casanova in my post so i posted his picture...i know he's E cas and that's not my signature...
Post by: bec on November 26, 2012, 09:31:40 AM
You figure, one problem with a dummy is if someone not in on it discovers that it's not real.
One problem with the corpse theory is if someone not in on it discovers that it's not MJ.
One problem with both theories is how does MJ escape Carrolwood when he's supposed to be dead/dying at UCLA?
Live MJ would be exactly where he was supposed to be/reported to be at all moments in time on 6/25/09 in a condition that can't be confirmed as not dead/dying unless someone got down to business of examining him (and surrounded by 8 people who really HAVE to be in on it-- how could someone unauthorized do that? Does anyone accept that all these people are going to stand down and allow that just because a DOCTOR shows up and says "ok let me at the patient!" Come on... at LEAST you have 3 bodyguards who's daily profession it is to keep unauthorized people away from their employer...)
Live MJ erases the need for any body or dummy or double, and all the risks associated with each option.
Live MJ erases the need for MJ to escape the scene under cover.
All this talk/discussion/debate almost strengthens the Live MJ theory come to think of it...
The biggest problem TS had with Live MJ is the "risk". Then he comes on here a year later and chastises us for evaluating risk and explains that isn't our job to determine.
Hmmmmmm.
Post by: Love4Michael on November 26, 2012, 09:33:50 AM
I am still confused about which policy paid out the - one from 2002 or the Lloyd’s policy? If Michael had a policy from 2002 no matter how he died it would pay face value. There is usually a 2 year rider on suicide, drug overdose, etc. So if the 2002 policy is what we’re talking about, Branca would have no need to accept a lesser figure than the policy was written up for no matter what the autopsy showed. If it was Lloyd’s policy, I don’t see them paying out at all since it was supposed to be a performance policy for Michael going into effect once the tour started, which it never did. So if the Estate got 3 million dollars from a life insurance policy, something stinks.
It must have been the 2002 policy because the Lloyd's policy is still under litigation with the estate if I have my "facts" straight. You're right about the 2 years rider regarding suicide, OD, etc. contained in most policies so it does seem much more like a cashing in of accumulated cash value rather than paying out an actual death claim. Unless there were additional waivers/riders...there seems no legal reason to accept anything less than the full face value of the policy. As I said before...filing a death claim for the full face value of the policy on an insured who is still living is what constitutes fraud...cashing in a "cash value" does not. I've just never heard of a representative ONLY requesting the cash value equivalent on a 7 year old policy when it's been the lead story all over the international media that the insured has supposedly died...LMAO. Then again...I'm sure they were thrilled and/or relieved to only have to cover the FAR lesser amount...after all that was Michael's own money anyway...paid in with premiums paid over time...and nothing extra from their precious coffers...SMH. I'd imagine the insurance company did a "happy dance" after that transaction.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 26, 2012, 09:36:11 AM
Live MJ theory actually still works for me.
You figure, one problem with a dummy is if someone not in on it discovers that it's not real.
One problem with the corpse theory is if someone not in on it discovers that it's not MJ.
One problem with both theories is how does MJ escape Carrolwood when he's supposed to be dead/dying at UCLA?
Live MJ would be exactly where he was supposed to be/reported to be at all moments in time on 6/25/09 in a condition that can't be confirmed as not dead/dying unless someone got down to business of examining him (and surrounded by 8 people who really HAVE to be in on it-- how could someone unauthorized do that?)
Live MJ erases the need for any body or dummy or double, and all the risks associated with each option.
Live MJ erases the need for MJ to escape the scene under cover.
All this talk/discussion/debate almost strengthens the Live MJ theory come to think of it...
The biggest problem TS had with Live MJ is the "risk". Then he comes on here a year later and chastises us for evaluating risk and explains that isn't our job to determine.
Hmmmmmm.
i strongly disagree when TS said that risk factor shouldn't be decided by us...Risk is ONE important factor that will lead us to decide what actually went to UCLA...how are we supposed to speculate when we remove that whole risk issue..
Anyways, how would you explain Live MJ being able to lay on that stretcher without being noticed? the paramedics will have be in on it, but still anything unexpected could've had happened...
Post by: paula-c on November 26, 2012, 09:43:35 AM
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 26, 2012, 09:59:03 AM
I am still confused about which policy paid out the - one from 2002 or the Lloyd’s policy? If Michael had a policy from 2002 no matter how he died it would pay face value. There is usually a 2 year rider on suicide, drug overdose, etc. So if the 2002 policy is what we’re talking about, Branca would have no need to accept a lesser figure than the policy was written up for no matter what the autopsy showed. If it was Lloyd’s policy, I don’t see them paying out at all since it was supposed to be a performance policy for Michael going into effect once the tour started, which it never did. So if the Estate got 3 million dollars from a life insurance policy, something stinks.
It must have been the 2002 policy because the Lloyd's policy is still under litigation with the estate if I have my "facts" straight. You're right about the 2 years rider regarding suicide, OD, etc. contained in most policies so it does seem much more like a cashing in of accumulated cash value rather than paying out an actual death claim. Unless there were additional waivers/riders...there seems no legal reason to accept anything less than the full face value of the policy. As I said before...filing a death claim for the full face value of the policy on an insured who is still living is what constitutes fraud...cashing in a "cash value" does not. I've just never heard of a representative ONLY requesting the cash value equivalent on a 7 year old policy when it's been the lead story all over the international media that the insured has supposedly died...LMAO. Then again...I'm sure they were thrilled and/or relieved to only have to cover the FAR lesser amount...after all that was Michael's own money anyway...paid in with premiums paid over time...and nothing extra from their precious coffers...SMH. I'd imagine the insurance company did a "happy dance" after that transaction.
Exactly my assertion of what happened also. This is probably a return of premium policy that goes up in premium after a certain age, usually 50. Michael only had the policy for 7 years (the magic number :icon_cool: - HOAX EXPENSE POLICY :thjajaja121:) and probably had paid in premiums about the amount the estate got back. Heaven knows they were probably charging him more than they would anybody else for his policy so it seems feasible that he could have paid 3 million for that coverage.
Return of Premium Life Insurance is a newly introduced term life insurance policy that provides both death benefit protection and a return of premium insurance feature. It?s simple to understand: If you keep your policy for the term period, at the end of that time whether 15, 20 or 30 years, the life insurance company that issued the insurance with the return of premium policy returns all of the premium that you paid for the life insurance. There also is some partial return of premium for policies canceled before the end of the term (depending on the year it?s canceled ? the longer it?s kept , the higher the amount of the return.)
Return of Premium Insurance is aimed right at one of the greatest objections to traditional term life insurance: I am probably not going to die, and my money will have been wasted." When you buy insurance with a return of premium option, you do not have to waste your money. Unlike regular term life insurance, Return of Premium term life insurance rewards you for living by offering a guaranteed return of your total cumulative premium paid on the policy during the level term period.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 26, 2012, 10:00:54 AM
@Thriller4ever......sorry off topic....... but your signature picture is not Michael but E' Casanova one of his impersonators.
i'm talking about e-casanova in my post so i posted his picture...i know he's E cas and that's not my signature...
Ups... sorry you are right!!
Post by: Love4Michael on November 26, 2012, 10:09:55 AM
With a corpse or without he, I still do not understand why that was not declared dead in the house, the trip to the hospital means more people involved, go of once to the morgue significantly reduces the involved.
Not allowing the pronouncement at the house likely would have kept many from being able to show up and possibly set up camp for many hours. It's possible that if coroners reps had come (which they would if death occurred in the bedroom) and relayed any suspect activity to local law enforcement they would have swarmed the place and kept the "victim" on scene for hours. Not to mention the hordes of gawkers outside. It would have meant a loss of control of the situation. I'm sure that's not what one wants to happen if he's trying to pull off a hoax...lol. Refusal to "declare" at the house effectively removed any immediate investigation/suspicion/lockdown of the premises and may have allowed someone time to set things up as they needed to be before prying eyes arrived. Just a thought :icon_e_wink:
Post by: bec on November 26, 2012, 10:13:55 AM
Anyways, how would you explain Live MJ being able to lay on that stretcher without being noticed? the paramedics will have be in on it, but still anything unexpected could've had happened...
The paramedics have to be in on it in any of these theories for several reasons.
Again, the driver backed out of Carrolwood. The driver was NOT Blount or Senneff, but a third paramedic we cannot determine. He must be in on it. Blount and Senneff must be in on it, as both testified to being in direct contact with the patient.
The 911 call never hit the scanners so it was placed privately (not real), necessitating them all to be in on it, as unless their supervisor simply authorized them to go, they aren't going to go to Carrolwood otherwise, and their supervisor is the only one who *might* not be in on it, as he stayed with the firetruck and was seen on the video placing road cones outside the residence. So we know the paramedic team had to be pre-arranged-- just from the 911 call not being real.
A dead body isn't going to fool the paramedics. A dummy isn't going to fool them. With either theory they have to play along.
If the ambulance breaks down or gets into an accident (minor risk during a 5 mile trip, but a risk present nonetheless, it's true), the same protocol as used in a real situation would be followed. The paramedics would send out the call for another ambulance to arrive. The patient would be transferred to the other ambulance, the same team would be attending the patient, just a different driver would be at the wheel. That driver need not be aware of who the patient is/what his condition is, that driver would simply arrive, wait for transfer, and then drive to UCLA, with no reason to believe they were transporting anything other then a real dying patient. That driver would have NO reason to attend the patient, that job is already covered. So where's the problem?
With Live MJ on the stretcher it doesn't matter if he is "noticed". It's supposed to be MJ lying there, so if he is "noticed", the notice-r is going to see exactly what they are expecting and supposed to see. In order to see Live MJ blink or eye movement or breathing, the notice-r would have to have several uninterrupted clear viewing seconds in order to evaluate visually that MJ isn't dead, and how is any unauthorized person going to gain several seconds of uninterrupted viewing time in an "emergency" situation with a patient surrounded by bodyguards? Even IF somehow, unauthorized notice-r gains several uninterrupted seconds of unauthorized viewing time and sees MJ breath/blink/cough, MJ reportedly "had a pulse" and "was alive at UCLA", so what's the problem if notice-r sees he isn't dead... yet? The official story would explain this event anyway. No reason for unauthorized viewer to get suspicious. Nothing they see would deviate from the official story. No risk there.
Again, with bodyguards hovering nearby, no unauthorized person is going to get their hands on Live MJ. This is what the bodyguards do every day for MJ. 6/25/09 at a hospital is no different then any other day. Bodyguards guard a body, it's their job. Hands off the client, period.
I've said it several times but there are locks on hospital doors, locks that get engaged from the inside (deadbolts). Everyone has been in a doctor's office exam room and seen these locks on the door while waiting to be seen by doctor. No one unauthorized is going to come into a room if the door is locked. Turning that lock cancels that risk, as within the exam room would be the most risky time for Live MJ at UCLA, not traversing the halls (emergency emergency, hurry hurry, get out of the way, patient coming through!). Once the body is wrapped up in the sheet, however, the risk is again reduced to *zero* as it will not be untied (standard operating procedure) until it arrives at the coroner.
Post by: Love4Michael on November 26, 2012, 10:27:28 AM
I am still confused about which policy paid out the - one from 2002 or the Lloyd’s policy? If Michael had a policy from 2002 no matter how he died it would pay face value. There is usually a 2 year rider on suicide, drug overdose, etc. So if the 2002 policy is what we’re talking about, Branca would have no need to accept a lesser figure than the policy was written up for no matter what the autopsy showed. If it was Lloyd’s policy, I don’t see them paying out at all since it was supposed to be a performance policy for Michael going into effect once the tour started, which it never did. So if the Estate got 3 million dollars from a life insurance policy, something stinks.
It must have been the 2002 policy because the Lloyd's policy is still under litigation with the estate if I have my "facts" straight. You're right about the 2 years rider regarding suicide, OD, etc. contained in most policies so it does seem much more like a cashing in of accumulated cash value rather than paying out an actual death claim. Unless there were additional waivers/riders...there seems no legal reason to accept anything less than the full face value of the policy. As I said before...filing a death claim for the full face value of the policy on an insured who is still living is what constitutes fraud...cashing in a "cash value" does not. I've just never heard of a representative ONLY requesting the cash value equivalent on a 7 year old policy when it's been the lead story all over the international media that the insured has supposedly died...LMAO. Then again...I'm sure they were thrilled and/or relieved to only have to cover the FAR lesser amount...after all that was Michael's own money anyway...paid in with premiums paid over time...and nothing extra from their precious coffers...SMH. I'd imagine the insurance company did a "happy dance" after that transaction.
Exactly my assertion of what happened also. This is probably a return of premium policy that goes up in premium after a certain age, usually 50. Michael only had the policy for 7 years (the magic number :icon_cool: - HOAX EXPENSE POLICY :thjajaja121:) and probably had paid in premiums about the amount the estate got back. Heaven knows they were probably charging him more than they would anybody else for his policy so it seems feasible that he could have paid 3 million for that coverage.
Return of Premium Life Insurance is a newly introduced term life insurance policy that provides both death benefit protection and a return of premium insurance feature. It?s simple to understand: If you keep your policy for the term period, at the end of that time whether 15, 20 or 30 years, the life insurance company that issued the insurance with the return of premium policy returns all of the premium that you paid for the life insurance. There also is some partial return of premium for policies canceled before the end of the term (depending on the year it?s canceled ? the longer it?s kept , the higher the amount of the return.)
Return of Premium Insurance is aimed right at one of the greatest objections to traditional term life insurance: I am probably not going to die, and my money will have been wasted." When you buy insurance with a return of premium option, you do not have to waste your money. Unlike regular term life insurance, Return of Premium term life insurance rewards you for living by offering a guaranteed return of your total cumulative premium paid on the policy during the level term period.
Big business always finds a way to use the little guy...all the while making him think they are doing him a great service LOL...SMH. What interest rate (if any) is guaranteed to the policyholder for the insurance company's use of HIS funds over those years to fatten their portfolio? Unfortunately the bottom line with life insurance is that you only really "gain" if you die and the proceeds prevent your heirs from having to suffer.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 26, 2012, 10:31:05 AM
I've been working on putting my thoughts down too and some of what I'll write will probably mirror some of what UYI and others have already said. (This is gonna be a bit long lol).
It is true that TS has 'tested' us in the past to see if we think for ourselves...and he could very well be 'testing' us even now by giving us 'false' leads. However, much like any jury...we can only 'think' about the information we either have at our disposal or information that is available to be found with some research. In this case, and still much like the jury (if they weren't in on it)...we are limited because we do not have all the pieces, nor are all the missing pieces out there to be found even with research (I'm sure there's probably some out there that we've missed along the way...but chances are that some 'key' pieces have been held back). Still, there have been enough pieces IMO to at least be able to 'think' about each theory...and determine which sounds more plausible and which can be supported with at least 3 strong points, and/or which are 'weaker' theories because they have 3 strong points against them....while acknowledging that risk would've been involved in ANYTHING that happened on 'that day'.
I've always wondered about the breakdown of Level 7 and why TS chose the 3 areas of investigation that he gave us...as we know, not much that TS has done has been without meaning. Out of all possible areas or factors that Level 7 could've been about...he narrowed it down to a) was there an ambulance used from Carolwood to UCLA on June 25th, b) what or who was in the ambulance (on the stretcher), and c) was it a hoax or sting court. TS has commented a few times in roundabout ways that ALL 3 are interconnected...i.e. not only are all 3 important 'pieces', but also that 'a' affects 'b' affects 'c'...or better yet, 'c' affects 'b' affects 'a').
It's always easier for me, personally, (if at all possible) to work backwards when trying to figure out a 'brainteaser'. In this case, that would mean starting with 'c'...hoax vs. sting court. TS has told us it's both hoax and sting....but are there any 'pieces' that can support that so we're not just 'taking his word for it'? Well, we know that Mike is alive...so there HAS to be a hoax element (i.e. the trial was based on a 'hoax' death). The 'sting' aspect is a bit trickier; however, we have some 'pieces' pointing to FBI involvement. Apart from the 333 pages released on an 'interesting' day...the fact that there was a real courtroom with a real judge and real lawyers (and possibly real jury), also points to the fact that Mike got help from some high-ranking govt office in order to get clearance to use these resources for a 'fake'/hoax court. The involvement of the FBI points to some sort of 'sting' (even if we can't figure out 'who' the targets are, which isn't/wasn't required for Level 7 anyway...as what happened once inside UCLA wasn't required either). Since there is some sort of 'sting' going on...we know that there is at least one 'serious' aspect involved.
Regardless of 'who' the targets are....ANY FBI 'sting operation's' goal is success in the mission, first and foremost. Irrespective of the FBI's goals, though, we also have Mike's goals....which, no matter what they were/are...would also involve a desire for a 'successful mission'. We are limited in knowing all the goals of either the FBI or Mike....however, there's been several pieces pointing to Mike having been working on his side of things for many, many years. Even without knowing the goals of the FBI in all this....NO sting operation is launched 'off the cuff'....a lot of planning, time, money, and resources go into these operations. June 25th was the 'kick-off' day for the PUBLIC being brought in....there would've been NO do-overs and no room for errors...that day WAS it. If anything went wrong...all the planning, time, money, and resources put in over many years by BOTH the FBI and Mike, would've gone down the toilet. Even if we take the FBI out of the equation (for those not convinced they are involved)...ONE error that day could've meant failure for Mike's goals...whether those goals were simply a movie, to teach a lesson, to play a prank, an ARG, or something much deeper...the hoax would've ended before it even began.
With that in mind...the dire importance of success 'that day'...the success of the mission IMO would include: covering ALL known variables and minimizing ANY unknown variables to make it as real and believable as possible, while minimizing/avoiding entrapment.
From 'c'...now we jump to 'a'. Most of us agreed that there was a real ambulance used that arrived at Carolwood and went to UCLA.
Known variables:
- real paramedics
- real staff in the house
- 'scene' outside the gates
Covering known variables:
- have paramedics in on it
- send staff home
- limit the scene outside (i.e. block off street, secure gates, minimize paps/onlooker access)
Unknown variables:
Much like 'life', it is VERY difficult to plan for something unexpected to happen...things/people/situations are always changing (I can plan my day out in perfect detail and it never goes as planned lol). The events at Carolwood on June 25th, no matter how pre-planned...could've been affected by unexpected happenings, DESPITE a controlled environment. What if one of the paramedics that was supposed to be there (was part of the hoax) and had a 'key' role to play got held up somewhere else and couldn't make it on time or not make it at all? What if the ambulance carrying all the paramedics that were in on it crashed on the way to Carolwood and another ambulance had to be called in/used with other paramedics in order to fulfill hoax 'timing'? Staff wasn't asked to leave until around 1pm (as per Kai's testimony)...what if one of them somehow got upstairs unnoticed by security...in all that flurry of activity...and saw something they weren't supposed to see? What if a police cruiser driving by saw all the commotion and radioed in to the station about it (thereby potentially having all kinds of paps showing up since they monitor scanners)? I could go on and on with 'unknown' variables, unexpected shit happens ALL the time...that's just a fact of life. Doesn't mean ANY of them happened...but the fact remains that ANYTHING could've gone 'wrong' with the scene at Carolwood. I would think that both the FBI and Mike thought out every possible scenario and tried to plan for the worst to ensure success.
We know that Blount wasn't on the same shift as the others. That could mean he WAS in on it and was brought in from another shift...or it could mean he was NOT in on it and showed up due to an 'unknown' variable. The point being (as TS mentioned)....the very fact that someone/something could've happened that wasn't supposed to would be a risk, with even the smallest 'unknown' compromising the entire mission. Leaving it all up to chance...and just hoping that everything worked out according to plan 'that day'...is not something I can envision Mike OR the FBI doing. I'm sure ALL bases were covered.
Which brings us to 'b'...who or what was in the ambulance....and we had the following options: nothing, living double, live MJ, dummy, corpse.
The whole point of having/needing 'something' on that stretcher would be to make it look as real as possible...not for those who are in the hoax, but for those who aren't...or WHY have anything at all? There didn't even NEED to be ANY events at Carolwood 'that day'...the 'bringing the public in' phase could've started at UCLA, with us just learning through the media (leaked by Mike and his team) that Mike was brought to the hospital from rehearsals or wherever, and is close to death or already dead. The fact that Carolwood WAS used...REGARDLESS of the reasons, means that IF all bases were covered, then 'something' HAD to be on that stretcher. The 'nothing' theory, therefore, would be highly risky when considering possible 'unknown' variables (an unplanned EMT showing up, someone getting a glimpse and seeing 'nothing' where a 'body' should be, a crash on the way to UCLA and having to explain why there's no patient in the ambulance, etc).
A living double and live MJ theory carries a lot of risk too IMO....both being 'healthy' males...and when considering what was supposedly done to whatever was on the stretcher. Of course, everything we were told was done to the 'body' could be fake, along with all the EMT reports....BUT, either option still doesn't cover the 'unknown' variable of an unplanned EMT showing up. IF there really was work done on a 'body' at Carolwood or if they HAD to work a 'body' to make it look real...it would've been a VERY dangerous thing to do to either a living double OR a live MJ. Not to mention the fact that the 'script' called for Mike (the 'body') to be already DOA or as close to death as possible. ANY 'unknown' variable at Carolwood or enroute to UCLA...something as major as a crash or as small as a sneeze, laugh, or other bodily function lol....could've compromised YEARS of planning. Also...IF there was a live MJ, WHY send the staff home? It would've actually been more REAL to have them SEE Mike laying there and have them tell others that may question the 'official' story what they saw. WHY the need for a 'fake' ambulance' pic of MJ looking 20 years younger IF Mike was really on the stretcher? Wouldn't a real picture of him laying on it looking like Mike in 2009 have been both better and easier to do IF he was there? Why spend all that money, time and resources the 'other da...' IF he was really there 'that day'?
Likewise, a dummy carries some risk (as do all the options). There would be the risk of 'it' being seen by someone who wasn't in the know...it definitely wouldn't fool a trained EMT who wasn't in the know...and it would be very difficult to explain away IF the need arose due to 'unknown' variables taking place, like WHY there is a dummy not only laying there but also being worked on while Mike is supposedly dying or dead somewhere else in the house? Or who had the 'forethought'...in an emergency situation...to go find the 'dummy' to replace Mike for a distraction? Why would there be a need for a distraction at Carolwood, his home, IF he was really dying? Same issue with the transport....ANYTHING going wrong enroute to UCLA could potentially lead to those NOT in the know discovering a 'dummy' in the ambulance. Would Mike or the FBI leave all that to 'chance'? Also, would REAL resources (EMT's, ambulance, doctors, hospital space) have been used for a 'dummy'...while they could've been used for what they are meant to...REAL emergencies?
As much as it's difficult, for a few reasons, to consider the corpse theory....if we take the 'emotion' out of it, which includes our personal views on death...IMO, it is the ONLY option that carries the least amount of risk when planning for 'unknown' variables. ANYTHING going 'wrong' would still result in a 'body' that is really dead or close to death...even IF it doesn't look exactly like Mike. We know this to be true because Blount said it didn't look like Mike and no one even paused over it nor cared. They just believed the 'official' story. And speaking of the 'official' story...a real corpse WOULD satisfy keeping the events as real as possible, it would satisfy minimizing those needing to be in on it, it would satisfy playing out the entire scenario in real-time, REGARDLESS of who showed up and/or saw anything, and it would satisfy keeping the testimonies as real as possible, since a real body WAS worked on...thereby, making recollection easier (less scripted) and avoiding a ton of perjury. IMO, no option, other than a real corpse, would cover the most potential 'unknown' variables.
That's about where I'm at lol....while FULLY acknowledging that what I/we consider to be 'risky' might actually not have been...or that I'm WAY off on my thinking lol. But taking everything we do have into consideration....EVEN with the ton of questions I still have with the corpse theory...I just don't see something of this magnitude being planned around 'amateurish' scenarios that could compromise the mission. And the success of any mission...does NOT rely on chance, luck, and/or 'known'/planned variables...but rather, success is dependent on designing the mission so that it will work even IF 'unknown' variables present themselves.
P.S. There's been like 20 posts since I began writing this...and I haven't read any of them yet, so my thinking may change after I do LOL
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 26, 2012, 10:39:43 AM
If the ambulance breaks down or gets into an accident (minor risk during a 5 mile trip, but a risk present nonetheless, it's true), the same protocol as used in a real situation would be followed. The paramedics would send out the call for another ambulance to arrive. The patient would be transferred to the other ambulance, the same team would be attending the patient, just a different driver would be at the wheel. That driver need not be aware of who the patient is/what his condition is, that driver would simply arrive, wait for transfer, and then drive to UCLA, with no reason to believe they were transporting anything other then a real dying patient. That driver would have NO reason to attend the patient, that job is already covered. So where's the problem?
With Live MJ on the stretcher it doesn't matter if he is "noticed". It's supposed to be MJ lying there, so if he is "noticed", the notice-r is going to see exactly what they are expecting and supposed to see. In order to see Live MJ blink or eye movement or breathing, the notice-r would have to have several uninterrupted clear viewing seconds in order to evaluate visually that MJ isn't dead, and how is any unauthorized person going to gain several seconds of uninterrupted viewing time in an "emergency" situation with a patient surrounded by bodyguards? Even IF somehow, unauthorized notice-r gains several uninterrupted seconds of unauthorized viewing time and sees MJ breath/blink/cough, MJ reportedly "had a pulse" and "was alive at UCLA", so what's the problem if notice-r sees he isn't dead... yet? The official story would explain this event anyway. No reason for unauthorized viewer to get suspicious. Nothing they see would deviate from the official story. No risk there.
I can see your point Bec, but I'm still somewhere unsure about MJ himself being there all the time. I understand that with MJ being present in the scenario all the time, it gives him a way to 'listen' to whatever is happening around him, till he reaches the coroner...or maybe UCLA.
But no-one really knows what's exactly going to happen on June 25th, even after years of planning...Let's assume that it was indeed MJ who went to UCLA playing 'dead'...we know today, that no one really 'noticed' MJ being alive...but MJ and his team wouldn't know of that on June 25th, that whether or not someone might notice. Maybe blinking, or some movements are all fine, because according to the scenario, this person needs assistance and doesn't necessarily mean that he's dead. That's all fine. But what I wanted to say was that, the news about his death was being spread rapidly like wild fire, some of the stories were true while some weren't. What if the guy (the one who's NOT in it) revealed to the press (for $$$ or whatever reason) that the stories about paramedics not finding the pulse in the Carolwood home itself was not true, he was very much alive while heading towards Carolwood, there's something fishy and all. Not that this guy's suspicions about the whole scenario would matter, but it would still mean that someone who's not supposed to know has/had 'smelt the rat' ...
IMO, all of this Live MJ theory is possible if they have another guy/driver set aside (who's involved in the hoax) in case of unexpected events like the breaking down of ambulance...or any accidents. And of-course bodyguards will protect the body...
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 26, 2012, 10:59:19 AM
Quote
Likewise, a dummy carries some risk (as do all the options). There would be the risk of 'it' being seen by someone who wasn't in the know...it definitely wouldn't fool a trained EMT who wasn't in the know...and it would be very difficult to explain away IF the need arose due to 'unknown' variables taking place, like WHY there is a dummy not only laying there but also being worked on while Mike is supposedly dying or dead somewhere else in the house? Or who had the 'forethought'...in an emergency situation...to go find the 'dummy' to replace Mike for a distraction? Why would there be a need for a distraction at Carolwood, his home, IF he was really dying? Same issue with the transport....ANYTHING going wrong enroute to UCLA could potentially lead to those NOT in the know discovering a 'dummy' in the ambulance. Would Mike or the FBI leave all that to 'chance'? Also, would REAL resources (EMT's, ambulance, doctors, hospital space) have been used for a 'dummy'...while they could've been used for what they are meant to...REAL emergencies?
this is what i exactly wanted to convey...small errors might lead to big failures, especially in a plan as vast as this hoax.
If there is a corpse it has to be provided by the UCLA (imo) because DWD doesn't make sense when it comes to California Law.
i'm still shifting from dummy to corpse and corpse to dummy...but at this point corpse is convincing me...
Post by: bec on November 26, 2012, 11:11:55 AM
What if the guy (the one who's NOT in it) revealed to the press (for $$$ or whatever reason) that the stories about paramedics not finding the pulse in the Carolwood home itself was not true, he was very much alive while heading towards Carolwood, there's something fishy and all. Not that this guy's suspicions about the whole scenario would matter, but it would still mean that someone who's not supposed to know has/had 'smelt the rat' ...
You're right, of course, but this would be an ever present risk with any of the available scenarios. What if the Not-In-On-It-Guy noticed that the body didn't look like MJ and smelled a rat? What if the NIOIG noticed the body wasn't real and smelled a rat? What if the NIOIG noticed there wasn't anything on the stretcher and smelled a rat? I think this would be an unavoidable risk regardless of which scenario they went with and the multiple conflicting stories planted and "leaked" were in part to address this potential problem. With so many stories flying around (as well as the preposterous notion of a death hoax implanted in the collective mind of the world thanks to the precedent set in pop culture history by Elvis 30 years prior- but that's another topic), they seemed prepared to meet this particular risk head-on in a full out strategic propaganda campaign defensive-offense.
Who's going to listen to Joe-Blow-Nobody when Cherilyn Lee, Jermaine Jackson, Shifty-Eyed-Klein, Incredible Lou Ferigno, Lisa Marie Presley, Miko Best Friend Brando, and Bumbling Old Joe Jackson (and more!) are ready, willing, and champing at the bit to blab their heads off about MJ and the death to who ever will put a microphone in front of them. MJ flooded the media with information, making their job alluringly easy. The Press didn't have to go looking for the stories, the stories FLOCKED to the Press.
Hearing stories of drugs and desperation and possible scandals at EAG and possible Murray having phone sex while MJ is dying incompetence and condom catheters and who's the real father of MJ's kids is VASTLY more "interesting" to the corporate media looking to $ell a $tory then "MJ coughed on the stretcher" --especially when the media is being bombarded with stories from MJ "insiders".
In fact, considering this valid risk, Real MJ coughing (or doing something else that obviously indicates life) would be the least sexy story to attempt to go to the media with when compared to any of the other options. So this guy saw that Real MJ wasn't dead yet? So? He's dead (by the time of the story telling) now. Considering the alternative: "what was supposed to be Real MJ wasn't... a "it looked like someone else/a decomposing body/a dummy/there was nothing on the stretcher" story might actually attract the wrong kind of attention, even when experiencing a full-on media blitz of info from the MJ camp.
Speaking of Real MJ being the least risky option, I think Real MJ would also be the least risky option to use in case of ambulance accident. It's supposed to be Real MJ in the ambulance, in unknown condition (at that time)... and it IS Real MJ in unknown condition (just fine-but you can't tell that just by looking). The stretcher gets transferred once the relief ambulance shows up and they continue on the UCLA. A little late maybe but they are leaving an hour+ for "working" on him in the ER so they have time to be flexible here before slated TOD @2:26pm (DEADline haha).
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 26, 2012, 11:29:03 AM
Post by: bec on November 26, 2012, 11:32:03 AM
Post by: Andrea on November 26, 2012, 11:41:21 AM
MJ faking his death is risky, no matter how it was done. I'm sure many of the "what ifs" were considered in the planning of the hoax and maybe it didn't go exactly as planned but he pulled it off. The media reported he died and the world believed it and still does. Over-speculating on all the things that could have gone wrong is not going to change the outcome that has already happened. There was no way to plan this hoax that was risk free. Failure was not an option for MJ or anyone on his team. MJ being there allows him to make the split-second decisions that may have been required for any unknown variables. He can play dead for the short stints that he has to. And you're right bec, anyone who may have thought they saw something suspicious would be drowned out by the roar of "death" confirmations by the people who "matter".
Post by: wishingstar on November 26, 2012, 11:46:24 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuXRaJFdmKU&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulb4lHp6luk&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
The thought of green screening has come to mind as well. If green screen was used on one of these videos (I am thinking the TMZ one), would it matter if there was anything or anyone on the stretcher?
we also have been shown this video from Ben....it shows the stretcher apparently being loaded. However, I can't figured how in the world that particular view would be obtainable. How would a fan be covering up the "peep hole" anyways? He also talks about the employees leaving. (Lol.....the lady that clearly walks out of the gate, in front of the camera and the world......Michael, that you? :icon_geek:) This video also shows that paramedic again, closer up near the ambulance.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=613h-A7RUFo[/youtube]
I am such a visual person, seeing these videos again, while talking about this stuff helps me sort it out......
Brilliant posts....I need to go back a re-read them. BTC....fascinating thoughts as usual!
Great info too on the life insurance stuff......it's SO confusing.....really not my forte.
OK...back to coffee and reading.....thanks guys...you all are quite amazing!
TS.....I am beginning to think you were the one on the stretcher.......just kidding love.
The thought of all this being "started" by a single tweet has also crossed my mind. Perhaps...nothing we saw on June 25th happened
on June 25th. Perhaps it's ALL green screened or shot "the other day".....and the videos (all of them) were just released
to the media. The crowds would have still gathered, the helicopter could have still taken off...but flew to nowhere. The video
of the coroner's office arrival, along with the "in flight" video....all released to the media. It was set off by a tweet only......
the tweet heard around the world. Okkkkkkkk......I've gone around the bend, as Alice said in Alice in Wonderland.
I'll go back to Christmas decorating now.........
Blessings and thanks again for all these great posts!!!
LOVE
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 26, 2012, 12:12:40 PM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 26, 2012, 12:16:10 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 26, 2012, 12:32:43 PM
Clearly that ambulance was in a rush. :icon_e_confused:
Not doing the ambulance run that day would be way too suspicious. There had to be actual witnesses, and there were. The maps lady Linda (who seems genuinely distressed in the video) is there everyday, I met her outside of Carolwood last year and the very first question she asked me was if I thought Michael was still alive, much to my delight. Different camera angles are going to give different perspectives. The two things that we've established with certainty is the ambulance photo was staged and the ambulance did go to Carolwood and UCLA on June 25th.
Post by: ellyd on November 26, 2012, 12:49:02 PM
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/traumagers.jpg)
http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0208_mj_case_report_wm.pdf (http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/0208_mj_case_report_wm.pdf)
Page 41 of the AR.
I don't know if one can draw blood from a dead body, but as sphincters relax, the bladder would be empty and Ms. Fleak is in.
Which means either
- the samples are wrong (corpse & dummy theory) or
- the AR is wrong also in this aspect (all theories) or
- MJ peed into a cup (MJ alive theory).
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 26, 2012, 12:56:12 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 26, 2012, 12:59:26 PM
(I'm going to add some off topic stuff here...Arnie Klein is a skin doctor and urine therapy is a known remedy for skin diseases and acne. Older urine that has been sitting for 3 or 4 days will have a higher ammonia count which makes it more effective when applied to the skin. It's been used in some cases to treat vitiligo because the ammonia helps even out the skin tone, making dark patches lighter. There are numerous other uses for urine therapy, it can cure a variety of ailments "ranging from Arthritis, Cancer, Hepatitis, Multiple Sclerosis, Eczema, Psoriasis, Diabetes, Herpes and adrenal failure." Remember that TMZ article claiming MJ had the "herpes cure, acne cures and arthritis cures". http://www.tmz.com/2009/09/18/jackson-estate-sued-over-herpes-cures/ Sorry for bringing this up again, I know it's irrevelant to the conversation and pure speculation.)
Post by: bec on November 26, 2012, 02:22:49 PM
However, don't believe it just because I say so; go by the evidence that we have access to. And that evidence includes the usage of the word "alleged" in the verdict.
However, if it was NOT only a movie, then there is a simple explanation for the "alleged"--to keep things legal, since Michael Joseph Jackson was not legally and actually a victim (he was merely an alleged victim).
So this is the reason for "alleged" in the verdict. Now it is this?:
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
Seems a contradiction.
I still do not ask anyone to accept anything, unless I back it up with evidence.
However, just because I say that things were done a certain way, does not mean that everyone will believe me--and in fact, it is good if people don't just take my word merely because I say so. Nevertheless, it is hard and time consuming to back up what I say with strong evidence.
Although it's true that we should not gullibly believe everything we hear; on the other hand, it is also true that we should not reject everything we hear--merely because we can’t gullibly believe everything. We should seriously consider taking things at face value, unless there is solid evidence otherwise.
Regarding the Live MJ theory and possible motive for:
4 - Gives Michael hands on direction of his hoax.Why would he need hands on direction, if it's all planned in advance? What is there to direct?
Also agreed that the schedule picture may not have been current on 6-25-09, and schedules can change. For the purpose at hand, though, it doesn't really matter; in fact, the point that schedules can change (even unexpectedly) is my main reason for bringing up Blount.
Instead, it is about the possibility that someone would show up (at the house, or at UCLA), who was not planned to be there and was not in the hoax. This happens in real life; and it was a realistic possibility on 6-25-09, even if it was not highly probable.
The hoax was planned with 3 layers of protection:
#1 Have everyone be in on the hoax, who is planned to be most directly working with the body.
#2 Have a real patient, just in case someone gets in the mix who was not originally planned to be there.
#3 If all else fails, have the FBI on standby to keep quiet anyone who might find something out that they were not intended to know.
In between the lines it could all pertain to Real MJ.
Taking everything at face value is accepting that MJ really did travel in ambulance 71 to UCLA ,and left there wrapped in a sheet via helicopter, ultimately being loaded into corner van and disappearing into a parking garage. That's the official story. That's where MJ was supposed to be at each point on 6/25/09. Each point containing a risk of discovery that it isn't MJ and he's not dead.
Those are two different risks, though, at second thought.
The first risk is pre-UCLA and within UCLA. Unauthorized people wandering in risk finding out that the patient isn't MJ. Finding out MJ isn't dead (yet) before 2:26pm wasn't much of a risk. As earlier discussed, people take a turn for the worse and end up dead all the time. Finding out the patient isn't MJ would be more risky because if this person subsequently dies (which they do) and it's though to not be MJ, then instantly it suggests hoax.
The second risk is post UCLA when MJ is supposed to be dead. Post 2:26 pm, the risk of unauthorized discovery becomes that MJ isn't dead. If he moves or coughs in the helicopter and those guys are in on it, that's a problem. If someone sneaks a peak and he's clearly not dead inside that sheet, that's a problem. Meanwhile a decoy dead body (morgue has plenty available) is substituted it would be accepted as a decoy while the real thing (real dead MJ) is somewhere else.
So maybe live MJ went in (to UCLA ER), but John Doe dead guy came out.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 26, 2012, 02:25:54 PM
Post by: curls on November 26, 2012, 04:56:59 PM
If any unforseen events had cropped up on 25th June, like ambulance accidents or unexpected people seeing 'something', couldn't there simply have been another 'script' to switch to - it didn't HAVE to be the way it was told to the world. A planned series of explanations, testimonies, stories etc to cover all eventualities. Could be the story the world was given (at the time and after, as in the trial) is quite simply the one that best fits what actually happened, whether that includes unforseen events or not.
What I mean is, there could've been Plan A, then if such and such happened, let's switch to Plan B, e.g. MJ coughs or is spotted alive so let's change the story to have him alive at that point, only to die later.
We really don't need to concern ourselves about things that may have gone wrong in any of the theories out there - if anything had 'gone wrong' (and maybe it did), then we would have been given a story that took that into account (and maybe we were).
We've been trying to work out what happened based on the story we have been told, but how about looking at it slightly differently - we have the story that fits what actually happened on 25th June.
That doesn't mean MJ is dead - it means he was where he was reported to be, only alive. I think we have collectively made things a lot more complicated than they need to be.
The best illusions are usually simple - when you know how they were done!
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 26, 2012, 05:00:47 PM
So I still definitely think MJ had to leave the house on that day and that there need to be a switch at some point.
TS was saying that a contingency would need to be in place in case a paramedic changed shifts, BUT if all paramedics were in on it then it would be made sure that all required paramedics were available that day including Sean Mills. Which gets me to think one of two things, either the shift change was made up or the shift change was a deliberate attempt to throw people off.
It still either could be any of the scenarios except for nothing going to UCLA. It's pretty obvious on the board here that with all the theories a lot of scenarios have been thought of, a lot of good points for and against a theory has been thought of and all of the potential risks. No matter how hard we try we won't know what really happened and TS KNOWS THAT. If we want to even come close to figuring it out we're going to need some TRUTHFUL information. MJ created the biggest most complex illusion on June 25th as we know from obviously not getting any closer to the answers. He's masked what really happened with like 10 layers of smoke its so hard to know what to think, take what is true and disregard what is false when MJ mixed a batch of ingredients where you can't make sense of what's what anymore. And at the end of it TS 'so kindly' wants to serve the left overs (he was definitely not kidding) on a silver platter for us. Hmm what I'm tasting is just a little too processed for me.
Post by: paula-c on November 26, 2012, 05:32:57 PM
Quote
If he moves or coughs in the helicopter and those guys are in on it, that's a problem. If someone sneaks a peak and he's clearly not dead inside that sheet, that's a problem. Meanwhile a decoy dead body (morgue has plenty available) is substituted it would be accepted as a decoy while the real thing (real dead MJ) is somewhere else.
Human beings are curious, there was a possibility that the people in the helicopter be discover the corpse of the most famous artist of the world.
Post by: Adi on November 26, 2012, 05:48:19 PM
It seems the only theory we agree that is discounted is that "nothing" went to UCLA that day and the dummy/corpse/Live MJ theories are still in the mix.
I'm not sure we are ever going to come to a consensus because we all have such strong opinions about 1 theory or another and we have been trying to nut this out now for more than a week...actually a year. I have the feeling TS won't pop back in until Nov 29th 2012 ( :icon_e_wink: ) but happy to be wrong about that if it's before then :icon_mrgreen:
btw - great post @BTC and @UYI - congrats on finishing your Uni course! hoooorrrayyy!!
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 26, 2012, 06:20:16 PM
Congratulations UseYourIllusion. You did it :icon_e_smile:
Post by: Love4Michael on November 26, 2012, 07:20:02 PM
Great Brainstorming going on. I know I haven't been too much help with this. My mind keeps going to the "why" and not to the "how". I thought I read that the driver is an unknown ? Did anyone find out who the ambulance driver was ? What if MJ was disguised as a driver or paramedic ? Then anything could have been put on the stretcher when they got to the hospital (empty,live MJ,dummy,hospice patient). IDK :Pulling_hair:
Congratulations UseYourIllusion. You did it :icon_e_smile:
That's a funny idea but doubtful...lol. I remember reading a story quite a while ago (a couple actually) that indicated that Michael wasn't necessarily the best wheel man out there...sorry Michael :icon_e_confused: ...so I doubt that he'd pick that day of all days to jump behind a wheel and dust off his driving skills. Of course on second thought...maybe that's why there were multiple attempts made to back the rig out of the driveway. :icon_e_wink:
Post by: suspicious mind on November 26, 2012, 08:21:22 PM
back into my little corner now. :icon_pale:
Post by: BeTheChange on November 26, 2012, 08:54:33 PM
Still, as I said a few pages back....and what may end up being our 'error' (one of many lol)....we're taking certain events of June 25th as 'fact' that were either given to us by Ben (i.e. video with no date or time stamp), testimony from people we don't know whether they were telling the truth or following script, and statements from 'witnesses' that are full of discrepancies. What's true, what 'fake'...who's in, who's not...what happened, what didn't...and on and on we go lol.
I do think we've tried our best to make sense of things...all throughout Level 7 and even still now. But as Adi said...I don't think we're all going to agree, nor will we be able to figure it all out...since there are still pieces missing. Because there are pieces missing, anything could've happened 'that day'.
I am interested to see how TS is gonna finish Level 7, though...and by Thursday lol. Will we finally be 'sure' of a, b and c....or will we still be left, once again, scratching our heads by pulling our hair? :icon_e_confused:
Just a few days to go...
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 26, 2012, 09:22:17 PM
Here are the 2 places Michael is buried according to Find A Grave: :LolLolLolLol:
Jackson, Michael [cenotaph] b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009
Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)
Woodlawn Cemetery, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
Plot: Near front entrance at first drive to right, in Section 6
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=59849915 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=59849915)
Jackson, Michael b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009
Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)
Cause of death: Acute Propofol intoxication compounded by the effects of benzodiazapines or a benzodiazapine.
Forest Lawn Memorial Park (Glendale), Glendale, Los Angeles County, California, USA
Plot: Great Mausoleum, Holly Terrace, Sanctuary of Ascension. This mausoleum is private and locked to the general public.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=38746353 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=38746353)
Post by: mindseye on November 26, 2012, 09:50:37 PM
OT - Does anyone have a copy of the L A newspaper with Michael’s publicly placed obituary in it? Usually placed the next day. I’ve seen many mentions in different newspapers from all over the world. I’ve seen like an autobiography written in the L.A. Times, but never the original notice that was placed by the family. I’m sure I probably overlooked it in my grief stricken days. I just wondered if anyone has a copy of the newspaper and can scan it here.
I found two links online with the guestbook
http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-jackson-obit26-2009jun26,0,3365554,full.story
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?pid=128911426#fbLoggedOut
http://www.legacy.com/guestbooks/latimes/guestbook.aspx?n=michael-jackson&pid=128911426&view=1
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 26, 2012, 09:54:13 PM
OT - Does anyone have a copy of the L A newspaper with Michael’s publicly placed obituary in it? Usually placed the next day. I’ve seen many mentions in different newspapers from all over the world. I’ve seen like an autobiography written in the L.A. Times, but never the original notice that was placed by the family. I’m sure I probably overlooked it in my grief stricken days. I just wondered if anyone has a copy of the newspaper and can scan it here.
I found two links online with the guestbook
http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-jackson-obit26-2009jun26,0,3365554,full.story
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?pid=128911426#fbLoggedOut
http://www.legacy.com/guestbooks/latimes/guestbook.aspx?n=michael-jackson&pid=128911426&view=1
But are those family placed? They sound more like commentaries the media wrote up. The family one would be kind of general without listing all his accomplishments & referencing his trials and tribulations.
Post by: Andrea on November 26, 2012, 09:59:53 PM
QuoteIf he moves or coughs in the helicopter and those guys are in on it, that's a problem. If someone sneaks a peak and he's clearly not dead inside that sheet, that's a problem. Meanwhile a decoy dead body (morgue has plenty available) is substituted it would be accepted as a decoy while the real thing (real dead MJ) is somewhere else.
Human beings are curious, there was a possibility that the people in the helicopter be discover the corpse of the most famous artist of the world.
That's true. The Carolwood-UCLA transportation was pre-planned as the evidence we have shows. Why wouldn't the UCLA-coroner transportation be as well? Did MJ only make plans to get to the hospital but not the coroner (who is also in on it?) A year ago, I had convinced myself that I saw the body move once it was placed in the back of the coroner van, it looked like the body shifted itself when the guy moved it. It's so hard to tell though. I still see it but I also realize my eyes could be playing a trick on me. It's at about 5:21 in the video below. The "sitting-up" is at about 1:36. It's also noteworthy to mention that while Geraldo is talking - about MJ's financial woes, tour worries, auctions - footage of the helicopter flying is playing out, with the Bad short film playing beside it. Starting just before the first minute of the video and lasts for 14 seconds.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp95YX7OEPo[/youtube]
Once the body is placed in the back of the van with watchful people surrounding it, the van is police escorted to the garage. What/whoever was on that stretcher had very few opportunities for discovery by an unplanned witness. Full transportation details for the body had to be pre-planned for that day which includes the helicopter ride. The movie aspect of the hoax goes well with this considering the helicopter footage is very "Hollywood" - guy leaning out of the open door for no apparent reason and why does the door have to be open like that. Again, the FBI blanket can be used to cover any interfering details. I know it's very convenient to say the helicopter/van people were in on it but at least one person in the helicopter and one in the van would need to be - whatever or whoever is on the stretcher.
Post by: mindseye on November 26, 2012, 10:15:57 PM
OT - Does anyone have a copy of the L A newspaper with Michael’s publicly placed obituary in it? Usually placed the next day. I’ve seen many mentions in different newspapers from all over the world. I’ve seen like an autobiography written in the L.A. Times, but never the original notice that was placed by the family. I’m sure I probably overlooked it in my grief stricken days. I just wondered if anyone has a copy of the newspaper and can scan it here.
I found two links online with the guestbook
http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-jackson-obit26-2009jun26,0,3365554,full.story
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?pid=128911426#fbLoggedOut
http://www.legacy.com/guestbooks/latimes/guestbook.aspx?n=michael-jackson&pid=128911426&view=1
But are those family placed? They sound more like commentaries the media wrote up. The family one would be kind of general without listing all his accomplishments & referencing his trials and tribulations.
The family placed one doesn't show on LA paper site, maybe there isn't one :icon_question: :icon_e_confused: this is all I could find - bottom of page only shows links from other papers... http://www.legacy.com/NS/Obituary.aspx?pid=128911426
Post by: bec on November 26, 2012, 11:03:56 PM
The Carolwood-UCLA transportation was pre-planned as the evidence we have shows. Why wouldn't the UCLA-coroner transportation be as well? Did MJ only make plans to get to the hospital but not the coroner (who is also in on it?)
Once the body is placed in the back of the van with watchful people surrounding it, the van is police escorted to the garage. What/whoever was on that stretcher had very few opportunities for discovery by an unplanned witness. Full transportation details for the body had to be pre-planned for that day which includes the helicopter ride. The movie aspect of the hoax goes well with this considering the helicopter footage is very "Hollywood" - guy leaning out of the open door for no apparent reason and why does the door have to be open like that. Again, the FBI blanket can be used to cover any interfering details. I know it's very convenient to say the helicopter/van people were in on it but at least one person in the helicopter and one in the van would need to be - whatever or whoever is on the stretcher.
That's a good point, Andrea. Once at UCLA, MJ has to leave somehow eventually.
To go back to the "stalker" fan's statement that who/what was on the stretcher didn't look like MJ because it was "too short" (makes me feel like she saw the feet end of the stretcher), how familiar would she be with recognizing MJ in a lying down position? People's judgments of size aren't always accurate especially when making determinations from unfamiliar perspectives. How could she accurately judge how "long" MJ's body ought to be when lying on a stretcher? She would have no prior experience to compare to so I'm not sure she should be considered a reliable witness, and certainly not an expert witness on the dimensions of MJ's body in different positions.
Post by: ellyd on November 27, 2012, 12:45:27 AM
We tend to assign our individual perception onto others and new situations. Now starting with "OMG the KoP arrived at a hospital" translates into "I am aware that this is a very special person to me who is said to be in a situation of distress". As the person means much to me, I am put into distress myself. It hurts me to see someone beloved in difficulties. Almost automatically I will assume that everybody else must think and feel alike and will put emotional glasses on - which is just not true.
A hospital first of all is a hospital and then it's meant for everybody and there are many, many patients entering an emergency entrance during the course of a day. There is always a lot of stress and hectic at emergency so there is little attention to each and every detail. Some staff might not even be aware that the Michael Jackson entering is "the" Michael Jackson, KoP. There are hundreds Michael Jacksons in California. If staff acknowledge the KoP (due to bodyguards and VIP whispers), there are procedures in place how to manage emergencies with VIPs. This is daily business for a hospital, not an emotional exception. It is an emotional exception for me to get into a hospital. People working there see hospital situation all the time. Same applies to a cemetery. For me it is (emotionally burdened) exception, for staff there it is regular duty. (A cemetery is a great place to go to refresh the soul btw. for it is the most quiet, calm place in our daily hectic routines.)
MJ in the hospital: getting out of any situation is easier when the place is crowded or the attention is elsewhere. Fire alarm in hospital and trial, e.g., staff only corridors, technical supply corridors, hidden (to the public) doors, elevators, exits. Where is the laundry, where the food supply - we've seen movies with folks hiding in boxes and laundry often enough. Why leave with a coroner van that draws attention - why not leave with a bakery van? (There might be leftovers of pie in it in addition ;-))
We have seen CCTV cameras (video of CM entering the hall) were sending out coloured light flashes. That's not standard operation for surveillance cameras, thus the main camera system might have had technical issues that day.
If no corpse went from Carolwood to UCLA, it was MJ alive in the ambulance, getting out of spotlight from a 2 exit location to a crowded area with many unknown exits - what more did he need. I stick to the dummy from UCLA to the coroner for the time being as long as we don't have new insights into why the stretcher was completely flat when unloaded from the chopper, lol. Best hideout of "what" as the sheets remain knotted until the coroner's stretcher gets into the coroner's office. The person "in" can take care of the dummy getting out of the house again - if the dummy is not required for young folks' education at the coroner anyway.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 27, 2012, 02:00:32 AM
If MJ went into UCLA alive in person (which would be the easiest way to leave Carolwood unnoticed), UCLA is a good location to get out of focus. The elevators are close to the emergency area and they go down to the parking garage. There are special elevators for staff and hospital transports only that aren't accessible to the public. There are two aspects as to what to hide from: 1) the public - MJ being discovered would end in a drama; 2) uninformed staff - locks and insider knowledge where to go and where not to go in the corridors and how to place covering sheets would absolutely do. There are many stretchers pushed around from A to B and nobody knows why and needs to read the patient information carried with the patient to understand why that stretcher is at that specific location. So nobody would care about somebody pushing a stretcher somewhere.
To me this is a very good point of why Live MJ was used, plus it would get rid of two major hurdles; Getting MJ out of Carolwood and it will take care of the events that happened on June 25th 2009 (such as MJ dying).
BTC;
Quote
I also remember TS coming along and figuratively smacking us on the back of the head for entertaining the idea
Haha oh yeah who could forget that...now I guess we know how Dinozzo feels when Agent Gibbs does that to him :icon_lol:
Anyway here is the links you were looking for where it talks about debunking the green screen theory
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg374089.html#msg374089
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg373354.html#msg373354
@Adi, thanks again :icon_e_biggrin:
@DWA thank you for your support :icon_e_smile:
Haha someone probably mentioned this but TS_comments number of post so far stands at 226 (as in time of death 2:26)...hmmm clue or coincidence? :icon_lol:
Oh and he has a percentage of (0.340 per day which by my calculations :icon_e_geek: add up to 3+4=7) :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 27, 2012, 02:48:52 AM
@Bec ... TS talking both about Michael Joseph Jackson being the alleged victim and the DWD patient is definitely contradicting. TS is guiding us and at the same time is telling us not to believe him completely.
I don't really think that there would be any need for the helicopter guys to be in on it. It would have been safer for Michael to escape from UCLA, rather than from UCLA to the coroner via the helicopter. The REAL ACTION on June 25th was when Michael travelled from Carolwood to UCLA. This starting point was very crucial. Once it started off well, Michael could've escaped from UCLA and then a real dead body travelled to the coroner's. And the coroner would be in on it. or there could also have been a dummy that travelled to coroner, I mean would the heli guys really check whether this person is real or dummy?
BTW- great post ellyd!! Live MJ fron Carolwood to UCLA and dummy/body from UCLA to coroner...
anything against this theory?
Post by: Ijustcantstoplovingu on November 27, 2012, 02:53:18 AM
OT - Does anyone have a copy of the L A newspaper with Michael’s publicly placed obituary in it? Usually placed the next day. I’ve seen many mentions in different newspapers from all over the world. I’ve seen like an autobiography written in the L.A. Times, but never the original notice that was placed by the family. I’m sure I probably overlooked it in my grief stricken days. I just wondered if anyone has a copy of the newspaper and can scan it here.
Here are the 2 places Michael is buried according to Find A Grave: :LolLolLolLol:
Jackson, Michael [cenotaph] b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009
Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)
Woodlawn Cemetery, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
Plot: Near front entrance at first drive to right, in Section 6
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=59849915 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=59849915)
Jackson, Michael b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009
Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)
Cause of death: Acute Propofol intoxication compounded by the effects of benzodiazapines or a benzodiazapine.
Forest Lawn Memorial Park (Glendale), Glendale, Los Angeles County, California, USA
Plot: Great Mausoleum, Holly Terrace, Sanctuary of Ascension. This mausoleum is private and locked to the general public.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=38746353 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=38746353)
If my memory serves me correctly wasnt the grave listed in Detroit the one where all the toys and momentos were burried that the fans had left for MJ. Im sure thats what happened. :animal0017: Someone correct me if Im wrong of course. :)
Post by: MJonmind on November 27, 2012, 03:53:59 AM
TS disproved that MJ sat up on the stretcher by showing there were legs of another person walking behind the stretcher. But what if MJ got off the stretcher and was walking behind just to drive us crazy. How on earth did some medic look so much like MJ with a ponytail? Are medics allowed to have ponytails. I don't know if this LAFD hair rule is still in place in 2009, or if it doesn't apply to paramedics working in the LAFD only firefighters. According to here he/she would have to wear it up.
http://www.lafdtraining.org/ists/volume2v0805.pdf
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/lafdfemale.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/lafdfeeze.jpg)
You know when they transported the body from UCLA to the heli, the body was flopping slightly (or is it my imagination), and wouldn’t rigor mortis keep the body stiff?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NLmHZO2XE[/youtube]
We know Blount drove the ambulance to the house, but do we know who drove to UCLA? We have never identified the dark-haired medic that looked like MJ in disguise. And whoever it was didn’t have to testify so can stay hidden. Of course all the team would have to be in.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/uclamjdisg.jpg)
Bec, thanks for finding those many places of TS’s telling us to not necessarily take what he says at face value.
About TS’s wording, aren’t ‘leftovers’ unwanted or used for some other dish or usage like scraps for the dog? Was using a DWD patient a left-over unwanted portion of the hoax planning of options?
TS said Jermaine HAD to be telling the truth about MJ going to the airport, because if their clues weren’t correct it meant MJ really was dead as they publicly were saying. I don’t see the logic in that, because they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain. Can anyone remember other instances of family giving out a hoax clue that wasn't necessarily correct but still hoaxy?
I remember in the Bad docu, Slash telling about being asked to play guitar. He told Quincy only if Michael was going to be there IN PERSON. And Quincy laughed and said 'Of course he’s going to there—it’s his record'. Well isn’t this MJ’s death hoax? :icon_lol:
Kenny Ortega told the court that MJ said on the 24th that he was going to disappear from a bed to perform an illusion the next day. So what exactly IS that illusion? Did he disappear from the bed to the airport early in the morning on the 25th and be replaced by a body or dummy? Or is ‘disappear’ really a metaphor for ‘die’? He will supposedly ‘die’ on the bed and disappear into the land of the dead? In which case the absolute best illusion would be appearing dead and fooling everyone. It would be the most convincing of all the choices, but the hardest for MJ to do physically—keeping so still and deathlike. But knowing his perfectionist skills of all kinds, could he achieve this through practice, mind over matter/body?
For a short while before the EMT came, Elvis said from extensive training, he had learned how to slow his breathing and heart rate right down, so that Ginger and initial people examining him thought he was dead and called for emergency help. Then just before they came somehow the switchero was done and he climbed in the closet in exchange for the hospice patient, something like that. Could MJ with help of meditation (Deepra Chopak or Paramahansa Yogananda) have had similar training to pull off something similar?
I found this interesting given earlier on an emphasis on this man was given. Maybe a hint! :Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile
Quote
Claims of bodily incorruptibility
As reported in Time Magazine on August 4, 1952, Harry T. Rowe, Los Angeles Mortuary Director of the Forest Lawn Memorial Park Cemetery in Glendale, California, where Yogananda's body was embalmed,[29] wrote in a notarized letter[3][30]
The absence of any visual signs of decay in the dead body of Paramhansa Yogananda offers the most extraordinary case in our experience... No physical disintegration was visible in his body even twenty days after death... No indication of mold was visible on his skin, and no visible drying up took place in the bodily tissues. This state of perfect preservation of a body is, so far as we know from mortuary annals, an unparalleled one... No odor of decay emanated from his body at any time...
Rowe also noted the appearance of a brown spot on Yogananda's nose after twenty days. Some have pointed out that this degree of preservation of an embalmed body is common.[31] Rowe also said in the same sentence that there was no visible mold even on March 26. Rowe continues, "on March 27th there was no reason to say that his body had suffered any visible physical disintegration at all. For these reasons we state again that the case of Paramhansa Yogananda is unique in our experience."
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 27, 2012, 07:16:57 AM
Quote
About TS’s wording, aren’t ‘leftovers’ unwanted or used for some other dish or usage like scraps for the dog? Was using a DWD patient a left-over unwanted portion of the hoax planning of options?
TS said Jermaine HAD to be telling the truth about MJ going to the airport, because if their clues weren’t correct it meant MJ really was dead as they publicly were saying. I don’t see the logic in that, because they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain. Can anyone remember other instances of family giving out a hoax clue that wasn't necessarily correct but still hoaxy?
I just want to quote this about the ARG, just to remind that it's true we can all be going in another direction just to know what the right direction is...
Quote
Puppetmaster – A puppetmaster or "PM" is an individual involved in designing and/or running an ARG. Puppetmasters are simultaneously allies and adversaries to the player base, creating obstacles and providing resources for overcoming them in the course of telling the game's story. Puppetmasters generally remain behind the curtain while a game is running.[3] The real identity of puppet masters may or may not be known ahead of time.so, irrespective of this hoax being an ARG, some of it's elements can be adopted by Michael (who is our PM)
And talking about airport... If Michael had escaped to some land from UCLA or the coroner, wouldn't there be any kind of problem in the airport? While the world was talking about MJ's death, he would have definitely faced issues because by then some or the other guy would have known about the news of his death...He can't be in a disguise. Of course Michael would have travelled in a private jet, but some customs would have to fulfilled in order to live in whichever country Michael landed in, and also the problems with the passport...he can't be in a disguise!
So that would mean Michael escaped before the hoax even started ... Ur right MJonMind, he would have gone from bed to his desired destination...or maybe the previous day itself...just after the rehearsals
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 27, 2012, 07:42:40 AM
OT - Does anyone have a copy of the L A newspaper with Michael’s publicly placed obituary in it? Usually placed the next day. I’ve seen many mentions in different newspapers from all over the world. I’ve seen like an autobiography written in the L.A. Times, but never the original notice that was placed by the family. I’m sure I probably overlooked it in my grief stricken days. I just wondered if anyone has a copy of the newspaper and can scan it here.
Here are the 2 places Michael is buried according to Find A Grave: :LolLolLolLol:
Jackson, Michael [cenotaph] b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009
Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)
Woodlawn Cemetery, Detroit, Wayne County, Michigan, USA
Plot: Near front entrance at first drive to right, in Section 6
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=59849915 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=59849915)
Jackson, Michael b. August 29, 1958 d. June 25, 2009
Musician, Entertainer. He was called the "King of Pop," and is best remembered for his revolutionary videos such as "Thriller" (1982), and "Dangerous" (1991), as well as two Guinness World Records: Most successful entertainer of all time (with 13 Grammy Awards, 13 Number One single hits in a solo career, and sales of over 750 million in albums worldwide), and for having the greatest selling album of all time ("Thriller"). He is also remembered for his trademark single sequined white glove, and...[Read More] (Bio by: Kit and Morgan Benson)
Cause of death: Acute Propofol intoxication compounded by the effects of benzodiazapines or a benzodiazapine.
Forest Lawn Memorial Park (Glendale), Glendale, Los Angeles County, California, USA
Plot: Great Mausoleum, Holly Terrace, Sanctuary of Ascension. This mausoleum is private and locked to the general public.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=38746353 (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=38746353)
If my memory serves me correctly wasnt the grave listed in Detroit the one where all the toys and momentos were burried that the fans had left for MJ. Im sure thats what happened. :animal0017: Someone correct me if Im wrong of course. :)
:icon_e_confused: :icon_e_confused: :icon_e_confused: Fans actually purchased a grave site to bury toys and momentos? I wonder if they had a service for them...
Post by: paula-c on November 27, 2012, 08:43:36 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ww_AdH7hdik#![/youtube]
Post by: BeTheChange on November 27, 2012, 08:48:13 AM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011)
Good eye! <!-- s:lol: -->:lol:<!-- s:lol: -->
Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress. There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other). But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.
On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way. Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.
And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let’s examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point).
What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be “in on it”? NONE! Why? Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be “in on”. Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be “in on it”? None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.
[Did he mean that MJ dying on June 25th was NOT the actual case (which we already knew to be true)...or did his statement about this example NOT being the actual case also include the hospice patient dying on June 25th? Once again, TS' wording is 'tricky' lol]
But in that case, wouldn’t people realize that it was not MJ? Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in. As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think. There are several things that would tend to distract people’s attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).
We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do. But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence. And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766)}.
See also a similar but slightly different theory {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518)}.
In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD). In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.
Even though level three is still unresolved, yet we can and should start investigating level four (The Sting). Actually, level three and four are closely related—so much so that if we get a clear answer to level four, then level three will probably be easy to resolve (and vice versa).
To be more specific: if it’s hoax court, then there would be little if any need to use a corpse; but if it is sting court, then the corpse theory has a strong case. This would not only reduce the people who would need to be in on it, but it would also allow witnesses to testify truthfully in real court under oath (both witnesses who are in on it, and those who are not).
The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
I looked back to see if TS ever supported any theory of 'what' or 'who' was in the ambulance...and I may have missed some posts, but all I can find (so far) is that he's always supported, or at least 'hinted' at, the hospice theory...and has repeatedly asked us to investigate it (which many have done). Of course, it could be because he wanted us to debunk it once and for all (although that hasn't been done...not for this theory or a few others)....and it could be because he wanted to 'throw us off track'. Or, maybe, he's been telling us what happened all along?
Sorry for your frustration. However, I am not changing theories around from one day to the next; maybe others have, but I have not.
If I know what is up, just say it? I do, but people don't believe me. So I have to back it up with evidence; and that is not as easy as you might think.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 27, 2012, 08:53:43 AM
(http://grabilla.com/02b1b-6a847d34-12b2-4cb0-b8a8-b667aadd81a5.png) (http://grabilla.com/02b1b-6a847d34-12b2-4cb0-b8a8-b667aadd81a5.html)
{http://globalgrind.com/entertainment/paris-jackson-family-feud-michael-jackson-money-details (http://globalgrind.com/entertainment/paris-jackson-family-feud-michael-jackson-money-details) }
this tweet also stated in http://www.entertainmentwise.com/news/82087/Paris-Jackson-Defends-Grandmother-Katherine- (http://www.entertainmentwise.com/news/82087/Paris-Jackson-Defends-Grandmother-Katherine-)
This tweet by Paris is really suspicious because how in the world did Paris not see her father after that! if the story all straight, she would have seen Michael come back home from the rehearsals...
and this statement by Latoya proves the dummy/corpse theory:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvdzPRpPX_Q&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
at around 6:50 - latoya never saw the kids crying again...
very hoaxy...
Post by: bec on November 27, 2012, 09:20:36 AM
Can anyone remember other instances of family giving out a hoax clue that wasn't necessarily correct but still hoaxy?
"(TII) is full of body doubles" --Joe Jackson October 2009
Wholly unsubstantiated.
You guys have done great work since I went to bed! I am still reading the posts, just wanted to get that ^^ comment out of the way first.
Post by: TS_comments on November 27, 2012, 09:52:04 AM
... So, let me get my flag :smiley-vault-misc-150: and say to you that I cannot apologize enough for that and I hope you can forgive me for that.
Absolutely!
:bearhug:
Post by: TS_comments on November 27, 2012, 10:01:00 AM
... they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain.
Often things that appear contradictory are actually just misinterpretations of what is said. :icon_bounce:
In this case, I was joking about MJ leaving from LA on June 25, 2009, and driving directly to Bahrain in a car--that, of course, was a joke. But just because MJ did not go direct from LA to Bahrain on 6-25-09 (via car--or even airplane or boat), does not mean that he has never once been in Bahrain since the day he "died". Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.
Post by: MJonmind on November 27, 2012, 10:09:29 AM
In the other posts you gave, if anything TS sounds more like a sports play-by-play announcer, or like on Survivor host Jeff Probst gives the rules and then tells how each team is doing while they compete in the physical games. Then at the voting time he likes to draw out how players are feeling/thinking and how the strategy of winning is going.
Thriller4ever, good video of Latoya--she is such a good actress. Strange how she says MJ ‘was to go directly to the hospital but he didn’t make it’. I know she’s talking about Lloyds of London Insurance needing to have a doctor verify his health, but still why a hospital and not a doctor's office… And as for the kids never crying a tear again after seeing MJ dead in the hospital, NEVER could I believe that unless that was truly MJ alive they saw. And if it was a dead DWD patient that was a stranger to them, I can't hardly imagine them kissing it, touching it and, crying and saying thanks and other things.
Yes Bec, Joe's words before I went to see it, totally influenced me picking MJ apart while watching it. Now I can laugh about it. So he was misleading to get the hoaxers theorizing, and it wasn't the truth, although there may have been brief appearances of a double in a few spots like the stunt with the bullets, and there was the pic showing 2 MJ's dressed the same.
Post by: paula-c on November 27, 2012, 10:09:54 AM
... they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain.
Often things that appear contradictory are actually just misinterpretations of what is said. :icon_bounce:
In this case, I was joking about MJ leaving from LA on June 25, 2009, and driving directly to Bahrain in a car--that, of course, was a joke. But just because MJ did not go direct from LA to Bahrain on 6-25-09 (via car--or even airplane or boat), does not mean that he has never once been in Bahrain since the day he "died". Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.
that's all? :icon_bounce:
Post by: TS_comments on November 27, 2012, 10:17:05 AM
So in the interest of finishing in the next couple of days: I would request bec, in the next day or so, to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include). You may use new reasons, and/or review previous reasons posted by yourself and/or others. Please number each point, so that I can reply to each point directly by number.
:argue:
After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM.
:affraid:
Post by: paula-c on November 27, 2012, 10:21:45 AM
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 27, 2012, 11:04:29 AM
Post by: Jos on November 27, 2012, 11:06:10 AM
I have read all of the posts up to this point, and unfortunately I don't have enough time make a reply to every post.
So in the interest of finishing in the next couple of days: I would request bec, in the next day or so, to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include). You may use new reasons, and/or review previous reasons posted by yourself and/or others. Please number each point, so that I can reply to each point directly by number.
:argue:
After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM.
:affraid:
And after BAM you will explain some things, so we understand it all better?
... So, let me get my flag :smiley-vault-misc-150: and say to you that I cannot apologize enough for that and I hope you can forgive me for that.
Absolutely!
:bearhug:
:bearhug: thank you!
Post by: bec on November 27, 2012, 11:10:16 AM
We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ. And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also? In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it. Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.
In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD). In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.
The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.
TS is very clear here about what kind of evidence is required to support Live MJ theory (and debunk corpse theory), ALL the paramedics must be in on it, and we need two strong points to prove it.
Let me see if I can stay organized this time around.
We could use process of elimination technique.
We have 4 paramedics in the room. We know this because Blount testified that 3 paramedics arrived at the scene on the firetruck, and 2 arrived in the ambulance. One man remained on the street with the firetruck; he is witnessed on the tourist video setting road cones. This leaves 4 paramedics to go into the house. We also witness 4 paramedics entering UCLA in stretcher gif. Blount testifies also to being seated in the jump seat en route to UCLA "at the head". He is not witnessed in the ambulance photo, but we know there to be additional seating on the passenger side of the cabin, rearward of the side window, which would be outside of the photo frame when shit through the perspective of that window, so we know that 3 paramedics were in the back of the ambulance en route to UCLA. That leaves one driver, so all the info makes sense thus far.
We know the driver is in on it. He backed out of the driveway allowing the famous photo to be snapped. If he wasn't in on it, he would have followed protocol, as well as responded to the pressures at the scene, with paparazzi and gawkers milling about on the street, and a roundabout driveway at his disposal, and driven forward out of the driveway.
Check one paramedic off the list and put this guy aside.
The reason we can use the ambulance pic (known to be staged) as evidence of these seating positions is because the pic went public shortly after the event and IF it depicted anything inaccurately, it would be obvious to those who were there that it was staged. If anyone unauthorized realizes that the pic is fake, this risks the hoax. Why? Because it rouses serious suspicion. Why is there a need for a fake death photo if MJ is really dead? If the pic can be proven fake, it exposes Ben to some pretty serious potential liability, namely fraud. He sold the photo to a media company for some pretty serious money. If the pic turns out to be fake he could be (and probably would be) sued. But a bigger concern that comes up should the pic be found to be fake, is it opens up the question of HOW it was staged, considering MJ is clearly laying there, and he's supposed to be (by then) dead. DID MJ know ahead of time that he would suffer a medical emergency requiring ambulance transport and have this pic staged for that event? Fishy.
If the paramedics are all in on it, that is irrelevant, as they are not going to protest what's seen in the pic as being inaccurate and blow the very hoax they are involved with.
But if they are not in on it, the pic must (or ought to) match exactly what happens. How could that be ensured?
The pic had to be staged ahead of time, as it is layered, doesn't match the sunlight cast at the scene. It was sold to Entertainment Tonight within hours of the event, and it required a subject to appear in it that matched the physical description of at least Senneff. If the paramedics weren't all in on it, and you were prepared with a fake pic to sell after the fact, what happens if, say, Blount mans the patient's airway? Or performs compressions? Then you have a $$ photo that's supposed to hit magazine covers the next morning that doesn't match the scene!
One could argue that is all irrelevant, as the pic does match what occurred, so perhaps they got lucky (unlikely to leave this up to luck, but it's what DID happen so it's a non-issue for debate purposes).
Even if luck played a hand, and not all paramedics are in on it, and the staged pic thankfully matched what ended up occurring, and depicting all the players in their proper locations (and not depicting those who it ought not), we still have a subject on that stretcher that is recognizable as the King of Pop.
So at least the three paramedics riding in the back of the ambulance, in clear view of the patient (and all three that are back there having put their hands on the patient at some point, Blount having testified to that fact, and the other 2 being witnessed working on the patient), must be aware that the patient is MJ. If not immediately (as testified) then eventually, once the news hit the airwaves, everyone knew MJ was dead following an emergency call at his residence.
Publicly, we have an ambulance pic clearly depicting MJ on the stretcher.
If a hospice patient were used for this portion of the hoax, then we have already agreed that the chances of that patient looking like MJ are statistically approaching the impossibility factor. No matter says TS and others? The public may accept that stage makeup accounts for the appearance we, the general public associate with MJ. The paramedics may simply not "notice" the patient's facial features closely enough to say it wasn't him, after all they are in the midst of lifesaving actions here, not studying his face for glimmers of recognition. That's fair.
HOWEVER...
The ambulance pic is a dead ringer for KoP and the paramedic crew get just as much time as the rest of us to study it after the fact and refer to their memory banks and decide if what they see in that pic matches what they remember from the scene.
Perhaps they just can't remember. It was a flurry of activity, after all, so much happening at once in an emergency situation, and again, they weren't studying his face. They were working on his BODY.
You know the whole problem with the patient in the ambulance pic not matching reality and only the paramedics knowing this for certain could be explained away by saying professional paramedics simply aren't going to get involved in some media scandal of fake celebrity photos sold to tabloid rags. Fine. For argument sake let's go along with this and forget his face in the ambulance pic.
Both Senneff and Blount testified that the patient looked like a hospice patient, very thin, emaciated, etc. Appeared to be "down" for sometime before they arrived. Apparently the appearance of the patient's body made quite the impression on these men, to remember so vividly the man's condition.
This photo was provided to the court as autopsy pic:
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_michael_jackson_nude_dead_dm_111011_wg.jpg)
Does that look like an emaciated hospice patient to anyone? Not to mention, it's clearly MJ.
How do we explain two pieces of court submitted evidence (witness testimony and autopsy pic) that completely contradict each other?
How do we explain Senneff and Blount sitting there on the stand and testifying to something that directly contradicts submitted evidence?
We also have clearly MJ depicted still at the hospital (in case someone wants to argue that we have already established that the coroner is in on it, so what ended up in the autopsy room need not be what was worked on at UCLA).
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/1005mjdead.jpg)
So we have 3 images of what's clearly MJ on the stretcher/gurney in all 3 locations in question on 6/25/09 (ambulance, UCLA, coroner) and if not all the players are in on it, why is not one single person piping up to say, "hey, that's not the patient I worked on"? What are the chances?
Driver is in on it, established effectively and unprotested.
The paramedic team needed to be prearranged, as the 911 call did not come in through the usual channels and so therefore someone at LAFD needed to be in on it to enter that info into the computer (yet not enter it into official call logs for that day). Someone had to send these guys out on call.
We have a good argument for Senneff and Blount being in on it, as their testimony does not match the evidence photos, and never once has they/did they protest this fact.
The only thing I have on the 4th guy is all of the above. If the patient he put his hands on didn't match the evidence photos you'd think that would be a problem for the success of the hoax. That's merely a connection of reason, however, so if anyone wants to jump in and help out here, now's the time, lol.
Post by: jono on November 27, 2012, 11:20:05 AM
... they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain.
Often things that appear contradictory are actually just misinterpretations of what is said. :icon_bounce:
In this case, I was joking about MJ leaving from LA on June 25, 2009, and driving directly to Bahrain in a car--that, of course, was a joke. But just because MJ did not go direct from LA to Bahrain on 6-25-09 (via car--or even airplane or boat), does not mean that he has never once been in Bahrain since the day he "died". Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.
Makes me wonder... How do you know that with such certainty? :D
Good to have you back TS! Although, I have to to agree with a lot of you wonderful investigators in here.. I smell BS from the DWD silver plate leftovers :LolLolLolLol:
...But who knows? :smiley-vault-misc-150:
Post by: bec on November 27, 2012, 11:20:35 AM
I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.
Anyone wanna help? :smiley-vault-misc-150:
Post by: jono on November 27, 2012, 11:27:08 AM
Wait, I have homework? Why just me?
I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.
Anyone wanna help? :smiley-vault-misc-150:
:over-react-smiley: :LolLolLolLol:
Post by: diggyon on November 27, 2012, 11:48:05 AM
Wait, I have homework? Why just me?
I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.
Anyone wanna help? :smiley-vault-misc-150:
Hahahaha :thjajaja121: :thjajaja121:
bec has a homework!!!!
Post by: BeTheChange on November 27, 2012, 12:09:10 PM
Using the ambulance photo to figure it out is tough to do as well. Sure, we can assume that IF Blount, or some other paramedic, wasn't in on it...they would've spoken up. But that would just be an assumption....maybe they would've, maybe not (especially if they were told after the fact that they shouldn't speak up). We do know that Blount supposedly told the stalker fan that it didn't look like MJ. If we take that as 'fact' (that he actually did say that)...then there's two possibilities:
1) he wasn't in on it
- if he wasn't in on it, why would he lie? He would've been telling the 'fan' what he thought/saw...and that was that it didn't look like Mike....which does tie in with his description of a hospice, frail, old man looking patient (i.e. NOT MJ looking). If this is the case (that Blount's NOT in on it)...then the Live MJ, dummy, nothing and living double theories are out.
2) he was in on it
- if he was in on it, why would he lie? If Blount was in the know...and therefore was following script...which called for the public to believe that it WAS Mike who was laying on the stretcher and dying...why would he AGREE with the stalker fan that it didn't look like Mike? You'd think he'd want to reassure the 'fan' or anyone else questioning the 'official' story that they were incorrect and that it WAS MJ.
Blount then changed his story on the stand to say he recognized it WAS MJ. This could suggest that on June 25th, he wasn't in on it...but at some point later HAD to be brought in (hence the change in his 'recollection'). Of course, it's not 'foolproof'....like with everything else, very difficult to prove.
Edited to add: Just trying to 'disprove' my own thinking...IF Blount wasn't in on it and for whatever 'unknown' reason showed up that day, why wouldn't 'they' have given him a less 'hands-on' role, than the one he did get? I do recall this line of questioning during the trial...him being asked about how their 'duties' and/or 'roles' are determined/assigned...but I'd have to go back and re-listen to what he said. IF he wasn't in on it, maybe it was beyond their control as to which 'role' he had? Or maybe him having a hands-on role didn't even matter (i.e. if it was a corpse)?
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Andrea on November 27, 2012, 12:18:29 PM
Wait, I have homework? Why just me?
I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.
Anyone wanna help? :smiley-vault-misc-150:
I'm at work so my time isn't my own, otherwise I'd help but you might be able to get at least a couple of points off some earlier posts of mine in this thread. If you haven't posted the list when I get home from work, I'll see what I can do!
Post by: paula-c on November 27, 2012, 01:30:20 PM
Quote
but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM.
that happened with this date?,...11/29/2012
Post by: ashprak247 on November 27, 2012, 01:44:27 PM
" After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM."
Could bam be this Friday 30th November?
TS - You mentioned you will go through update 7 could Michael bam straight after since we will know hows and whys of michaels hoax?
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 27, 2012, 01:51:58 PM
I have read all of the posts up to this point, and unfortunately I don't have enough time make a reply to every post.
So in the interest of finishing in the next couple of days: I would request bec, in the next day or so, to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include). You may use new reasons, and/or review previous reasons posted by yourself and/or others. Please number each point, so that I can reply to each point directly by number.
:argue:
After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM.
:affraid:
against the DWD/corpse and FOR live MJ...very interesting TS, why FOR live MJ? so, is it that what happened...and also by what TS posts, the BAM seems to be closer than we expect...
Post by: curls on November 27, 2012, 02:06:02 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on November 27, 2012, 02:25:34 PM
Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/D_SMIL%7E1.GIF)
Do you happen to know this from your own research/investigation like we all know, as hoaxers OR you have this piece of info from some SURE source ? :affraid: :icon_bounce: PLS answer ! I'm dying to know! :bowdown:
After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish;I can't wait for those replies :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce:
but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM. :affraid:
:moonwalk_: B A M in December 2012 !
(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/smileygol.gif) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/K_JUMP%7E1.GIF) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/a_plain.gif) :icon_bounce: :affraid: :bowdown: (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/youpi-12.gif) :woohoo2: (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/saute-et-tourne.gif) :icon_bounce: :Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/yahoo-supercontent.gif) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/0058.gif) :michael-jackson: (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/content-saute.gif) :multiplespotting: :beerchug: :penguin: (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/pom-pom-girl.gif)(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/cligne-oui-491.gif) :abouttime: (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/yaisse1.gif) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Content/U_JUMP%7E1.GIF)
Post by: Jos on November 27, 2012, 02:32:17 PM
Post by: Love4Michael on November 27, 2012, 02:37:41 PM
Wait, I have homework? Why just me?
I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.
Anyone wanna help? :smiley-vault-misc-150:
Poor bec :icon_lol: I'm guessing that this is one of the "perks" for being the most vocal. I'm sure many are willing to help though. God knows there have been lots of arguments and implications pro and con posted in the last few days already.
Post by: Sarahli on November 27, 2012, 03:16:56 PM
:icon_question:
Post by: Andrea on November 27, 2012, 04:31:33 PM
What I suggest is that Bec makes a 1st list with the major points she can think of for each theory, then after she posts this 1st list anyone can add something and if it is deemed okay it can be added in the 2nd and final list by bec. It will also give time for TS to start working on some points from the 1st list.
:icon_question:
It's probably easier to PM bec so she can compile a master list. Anyone can send her anything they can think of that would debunk the DWD/corpse theory and support live MJ (and/or dummy) theory. It's ok if it's already been said on the thread, the argument needs to be put together properly so TS can make his counterpoints for things some of us have been saying for a long time now.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 27, 2012, 04:45:45 PM
Post by: Sarahli on November 27, 2012, 05:01:58 PM
What I suggest is that Bec makes a 1st list with the major points she can think of for each theory, then after she posts this 1st list anyone can add something and if it is deemed okay it can be added in the 2nd and final list by bec. It will also give time for TS to start working on some points from the 1st list.
:icon_question:
It's probably easier to PM bec so she can compile a master list. Anyone can send her anything they can think of that would debunk the DWD/corpse theory and support live MJ (and/or dummy) theory. It's ok if it's already been said on the thread, the argument needs to be put together properly so TS can make his counterpoints for things some of us have been saying for a long time now.
Okay. :icon_e_smile:
Post by: MJonmind on November 27, 2012, 05:03:18 PM
You can do it, Bec! I'm looking forward to it! You and TS! :compute: :argue: :smiley_abuv:
Bec
Quote
So we have 3 images of what's clearly MJ on the stretcher/gurney in all 3 locations in question on 6/25/09 (ambulance, UCLA, coroner) and if not all the players are in on it, why is not one single person piping up to say, "hey, that's not the patient I worked on"? What are the chances?...This is clearly the crux of the matter. Either MJ’s dead or the DWD patient miraculously looked similar to MJ—perhaps make-up and surgery to help. And we've basically known this from day one. I am shocked/amazed at the good job of acting on the part of Blount and Sennef in their testimony--it's almost hard to believe they and the others could be lying--that genuine. :suspect:
The paramedic team needed to be prearranged, as the 911 call did not come in through the usual channels and so therefore someone at LAFD needed to be in on it to enter that info into the computer (yet not enter it into official call logs for that day). Someone had to send these guys out on call.
Paula
Quote
And by that escape in an ambulance if it could have done at any other time, the night before the June 25 or the sunrise of that day there was much activity in Carolwood as you can see in the videos from the security cameras ( of very poor quality ), that's rare, a safety video should have better sharpness.But to have a control comparison, we should have a security footage of a normal night. Ben Evenstad said that MJ would go out in the middle of the night often a couple of times, since he had trouble sleeping.
Sim, yeah!! Double Bam! :woohoo2:
:elvis-1405: :moonwalk_:
This kinda reminds me of Revelation 11:1-13 with it's 2 heroes, and hoaxy numbers 1260 days and 3 1/2 years.
Quote
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth....
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 27, 2012, 05:18:34 PM
Post by: Jos on November 27, 2012, 05:27:15 PM
Post by: Andrea on November 27, 2012, 05:29:05 PM
@TS do we have a deadline, or can we calmly think of our points and let Bec collect it all to make one big list for you, at our own time?
TS said within the next day or so...I would imagine before the 29th.
Post by: Adi on November 27, 2012, 05:40:58 PM
I have read all of the posts up to this point, and unfortunately I don't have enough time make a reply to every post.
So in the interest of finishing in the next couple of days: I would request bec, in the next day or so, to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include). You may use new reasons, and/or review previous reasons posted by yourself and/or others. Please number each point, so that I can reply to each point directly by number.
:argue:
Yes - interesting that the lists are to be against the DWD/corpse theory and for the live MJ and/or dummy theory. I will be waiting with great anticipation to see TS responses to both lists.
@bec - if I think of anything I will PM you , however considering I am one of the members in support of the DWD theory that might be hard for me to think of anything :icon_lol: - but I will definitely give both lists some thought. Good luck!
Quote
After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM.
:affraid:
Update #7 is meant to be after the BAM - at least most likely after the BAM is what TS said - so I will be interested how Update #7 goes if TS said he won't be here much, if at all, after his reply to the lists. :icon_e_ugeek:
EDIT: also I just remembered too that TS said all three 7's would be finished by the end of 2012 - Update 7, level 7 and Sign 7 :icon_albino:
I'm trying not to get too excited...... which is difficult!
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 27, 2012, 05:46:19 PM
Post by: Adi on November 27, 2012, 06:08:44 PM
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/enjoyyznz.jpg)
Enjoy yourself everybody!!!! the BIG one from the Jacksons is coming! :icon_lol: :beerchug: :fresse: :icon_cool:
Post by: mindseye on November 27, 2012, 06:22:51 PM
I decided to post a short list of my thoughts here -may help or not and I'll pm Bec if I think of anything else. :icon_geek:
DWD/Corpse
- If someone was not in the hoax...a dummy would've raised more suspicion, but with a body chances are they'd ASSUME it’s MJ even if there’s hardly a resemblance because everyone else involved is not taking notice of this.
- LAPD weren’t called, instead they have a doctor on site along with the FBI to carry out transporting the corpse to the hospital.
Dummy
-Enough ppl and FBI were involved in the hoax to protect the dummy from being discovered.
-BAD25 reference to annie the resuscitation dummy as a clue that MJ was not there.
-Assisted suicide against the law in California.
-A photograph for the media.
-The helicopter scene – I can’t see a real body being used for this kind of public display, not ethical for the purpose of a hoax.
-If it was a dummy on the stretcher they’d probably use it all the way through to the coroner or they’d need a plan to hide it afterwards.
-Would give MJ the chance to leave the house before sunrise.
Live MJ
-All paramedics were in on hoax, and a few hospital staff so that he could be in the ambulance on the stretcher, then prepared for the helicopter display, left from the coroner’s van.
-FBI presence and alarm going off to divert attention.
Post by: paula-c on November 27, 2012, 06:28:50 PM
Quote
And now (drum roll) … we are at the final level—level number 7! (7 represents completion). Now it’s time to take everything that we have learned so far (in the previous levels, etc), and put the last few pieces of the puzzle into place.
This is the final frontier for the hoax; the “when’s” and “why’s” have already been thoroughly established, especially through the numerology—and more than a year has gone by, without anyone even making a serious attempt to claim the $999 reward. Therefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!
The previous levels were not a waste, because without them we would not be where we are now. Much of the research has already been done, and some of the pieces have already come together (just like the picture above); but we still have a few major areas that need completed (just like the picture above). As I have said already, the minor details on the “how’s” are not very important (and may never been fully understood); however, for more than one reason, the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved.
For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?). I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7. Another major area, that keeps popping up unresolved, is the idea that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on some day other than 6-25-09; and closely related is the fairly common idea that two or more ambulances were used (supposedly different lettering, reflector, wrong shadows, etc).
There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo). There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys. It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least. Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.
The ambulance photo needed to be staged in advance, because of the great difficulty getting a good picture through the window “on the fly”; and if you missed the one chance, you would not get another. But staging that photo in advance would not raise public suspicion, if it was done indoors.
Also, some seem to think that the ambulance picture was generated from nothing, in good-old “Photoshop”; but the reality is, no matter how good you are at Photoshop, you don’t just start from nothing and end up with a high resolution photograph (like the ambulance photo). Staging the ambulance photo gives you the basic picture(s) to work from; and then you can modify it with Photoshop (such as adding the car reflection, by taking a separate photo of the car, and then layering it in Photoshop with some transparency).
So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc). There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked. Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.
8-)
Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place. Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court. When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.
penguin/
At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level. Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax. I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009. Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day. And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.
Last but not least, here is a real good statement from bec, which she posted in my recent thread about the timing of the 911 call (12:20 or 12:21?). Keep this concept in mind, because it applies to far more than just the 911 call. “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21289.msg370203#msg370203}.
It is true if in reality someone died there is no need to be recalling things to say and reduces the number of people in the deception by which all the events happened in reality.
Post by: Adi on November 27, 2012, 06:36:59 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoVmSuzBwAc[/youtube]
Post by: Andrea on November 27, 2012, 06:39:02 PM
...
Live MJ
-All paramedics were in on hoax, and a few hospital staff so that he could be in the ambulance on the stretcher, then prepared for the helicopter display, left from the coroner’s van.
-FBI presence and alarm going off to divert attention.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fINr7vUNirw[/youtube]
If this video was faked then I still think it was MJ's idea. He shows everybody exactly what he did (truth) but most continued to believe the lie.
Start to finish, MJ saw the whole day's events through.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 27, 2012, 07:28:22 PM
1. DWD: dr must be present during ingestion medication, Murray wasn't, because MJ self administered
2. ethical and legal concerns, LA law doesn't support this
3. public might consider DWD as "murder" which creates negative image of MJ
4. unauthorized persons might notice it is not MJ
5. rigor mortis in case of the corpse
6. how to bring the corpse unnoticed inside the house?
7. TS talking both about MJ being the alleged victim and the DWD patient is definitely contradicting
FOR live MJ
1. makes escape easier when in UCLA
2. erases the need for any body or dummy or double& all risks
3. Live MJ erases the need for MJ to escape the scene under cover.
4. easiest way to leave Carolwood unnoticed
5. most convincing appearance because it IS MJ
FOR dummy
1. erases risk of movement/coughing
2. erases ethical and legal concerns
3. fits to TS' "what" went to UCLA
4. use dummy/corpse while MJ went to the airport
I just read back to some great posts and tried to collect some points, maybe I haven't interpreted them well or some are already debunked, IDK, just a try. It's late, gonna get some sleep now. Be back tomorrow :icon_e_smile:
Post by: paula-c on November 27, 2012, 07:47:16 PM
In the trial Tim Lopez stated that send to Murray 25 vials of 30 ml of lidocaine. 40 Bottles of 100 ml of propofol. 50 Vials of 20 ml of propofol. Hydroquinone 60 gr 20 tubes. Benoquin 60 gr 20 tubes.
Bearing in mind that Michael already had a uniform color in your skin, why order such amount of cream (a requirement of Murray was that the cream had less fat) and why Murray wanted to go back to the house to retrieve the cream.
Someone can answer :confused:
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2jfzvbq.jpg)
Post by: Adi on November 27, 2012, 07:47:38 PM
See my post from a few pages back: http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429915.html#msg429915 and also from Be The Change http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429924.html#msg429924
@Adi...based on what I've also read, the prescribing doctor does not need to be there at the time of ingestion, nor is any doctor required to be there (although it is recommended). There are some 'Death with Dignity' forms at this link which address this https://public.health.oregon.gov/PROVIDERPARTNERRESOURCES/EVALUATIONRESEARCH/DEATHWITHDIGNITYACT/Pages/pasforms.aspx (https://public.health.oregon.gov/PROVIDERPARTNERRESOURCES/EVALUATIONRESEARCH/DEATHWITHDIGNITYACT/Pages/pasforms.aspx). See 'Reporting Physician Interview Form' which also lists several options as to where the patient ingested the 'lethal dose' and one of the options is 'private residence'.
I know there has been alot of info on this thread coming so fast the last week so it was easily overlooked :icon_albino:
Post by: Andrea on November 27, 2012, 08:09:12 PM
@paula - I've wondered about that too. It was almost like Murray was testing this guy to see if he could get a very large amount of exactly what he wanted. And the irony is there has been so much attention brought to something that Murray was allegedly trying to cover up.
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 27, 2012, 08:24:25 PM
That's it I'm not going to even think about potential hidden clues in TS' post, well played TS, well played.
Post by: bec on November 27, 2012, 08:59:39 PM
@paula - I've wondered about that too. It was almost like Murray was testing this guy to see if he could get a very large amount of exactly what he wanted. And the irony is there has been so much attention brought to something that Murray was allegedly trying to cover up.
paula n Andrea, this is a gem of a thought process you just sparked out of no where :icon_eek: so let's shelf that because it's way off topic but I think it's brand new outa the blue brilliance and we should discuss it.
I'm going to cross reference everyone's stuff to my stuff and try to get these lists up tonight. But I gotta go walk the dogs n such so I'll brb a bit later. Thanks for all the pm's!
Ps. I hope I'm not walking into a trap. This feels a little like... "please... proceed." :suspect:
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 27, 2012, 09:12:48 PM
If it's a DWD patient then they could take the prescription "after" they arrived at the house. He could take it while Dr. Murray went to the restroom for example. Then there is no problem with "getting the corpse in the house". The only problem is that Dr. Murray would have to "be in on it". He would watch this DWD patient die.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 27, 2012, 10:58:09 PM
AGAINST corpse/DWD
1. DWD: dr must be present during ingestion medication, Murray wasn't, because MJ self administered
2. ethical and legal concerns, LA law doesn't support this
3. public might consider DWD as "murder" which creates negative image of MJ
4. unauthorized persons might notice it is not MJ
5. rigor mortis in case of the corpse
6. how to bring the corpse unnoticed inside the house?
7. TS talking both about MJ being the alleged victim and the DWD patient is definitely contradicting
FOR live MJ
1. makes escape easier when in UCLA
2. erases the need for any body or dummy or double& all risks
3. Live MJ erases the need for MJ to escape the scene under cover.
4. easiest way to leave Carolwood unnoticed
5. most convincing appearance because it IS MJ
FOR dummy
1. erases risk of movement/coughing
2. erases ethical and legal concerns
3. fits to TS' "what" went to UCLA
4. use dummy/corpse while MJ went to the airport
I just read back to some great posts and tried to collect some points, maybe I didn't interpreted them well or some are already debunked, IDK, just a try. It's late, gonna get some sleep now. Be back tomorrow :icon_e_smile:
I sent these following points to Bec...posting here too for everyone to see: this is in support of Live MJ Theory...
point #6 : Gives MJ a chance to monitor situations..he is present at all times can 'hear' whatever's going on (I'm talking about hearing because MJ can't open his eyes, he's playing dead)
point #7: Live MJ explains why the alarm went off in UCLA, which could give Michael a chance to escape.
point #8: It would also support LaToya's story that the kids stopped crying after they came out of the room where Michael's 'body' was kept. So they would've seen his dad alive and would know that everything's a hoax...
point #9: Jermaine's slip up of before he arrived to the airport (error) hospital.... He would mean Michael...so wouldn't that mean Michael was travelling from Carolwood to UCLA...?
point #10: The disappearance of CCTV tapes might mean that MJ was not playing dead inside the bedroom. All the paramedics were in the hoax, so he wouldn't even have to play dead in front of them.
point #11 : Before the paramedics just entered the room, MJ might be 'acting' dead. Blount or Senneff or anyone who's in on it might signal Michael that someone 'unexpected; came or did NOT come...so it depends:
a) If no one unexpected arrived with the paramedics, MJ would tell them about the next part of the hoax, just as a revision.
b) If someone unexpected DID COME, then no worries... Blount/senneff/or anyone would signal that to MJ in some way and MJ would continue playing dead
Post by: bec on November 28, 2012, 12:03:37 AM
Thank you to everyone who pm'ed me with good info. I hope I have done us all justice with these lists. Here goes...
12 reasons against dead body theory
- The chances of someone other then MJ that looks enough like MJ to fool everyone ( double) dying of natural means (or Propofol) in accordance with the numerology, perfectly on time, who also happened to be residing at Carrolwood that day is a statistical impossibility.
- Assisted suicide or DWD is against the law in California. California penal code section 401: Every person who deliberately aids, or advises, or encourages a person to commit suicide, is guilty of a felony. MJ, Murray, and AEG would all be guilty in accordance with the wording of the law.
- A real body would need to get into Carrolwood somehow and at some point. On 6/25/09, the staff was sent out of the house before the stretcher came down indicating that they were not in on, so therefore would need to be shielded from the body’s arrival as well.
- A real body would need to be stored until go time. Dead bodies are messy n ought not be stored in private residences and few private residences would be set up to properly house a corpse. This is a public health risk that would necessitate specific accommodations. This is also a zoning violation (at best), and potentially a small string of misdemeanors and minor felonies resulting from abuse of a corpse, tampering with a corpse, others.
- If a real body were frozen to facilitate storage, it would be at the wrong temperature to fool emergency workers, and by the time the core was thawed, the outer tissues would be mush. Additionally, once-frozen-now-thawed tissue is distinctive and shows up clearly upon autopsy.
- A fresh dead corpse would be subject to rigor mortis within minutes and lasting for hours, making entubulation of the airway/locating and tapping a vein impossible.
- It was reported that the body was ID’ed from MJ’s driver’s license at the hospital. Neither a DWD patient nor a random corpse could be ID’ed as MJ from a pic of MJ.
- UCLA spokesperson did not make a statement in the death of MJ, counter to what is typical with a high profile death at a hospital. Instead, Jermaine Jackson made the statement. UCLA specifically dodged making any kind of statement regarding MJ at all, rather printing the family’s prewritten words instead.
- No doctor came forward initially to sign the death certificate. If there were a real body entering UCLA that day, there should be no problem getting a DC for it signed.
- The body wouldn’t look like MJ and ambulance/gurney/autopsy pics clearly depict MJ, and not an apparent hospice patient as was testified by paramedics.
- Makes the entire story, start to finish, a lie. MJ was not attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ didn’t go to UCLA, MJ didn’t get transported via helicopter, MJ did not go to the coroner’s office.
- Both paramedics that testified attested that the patient looked like MJ. A DWD patient or random corpse are not going to resemble MJ enough for both paramedics to testify that they recognized him.
- No IV drip was witnessed suspended above the patient in the stretcher gif and if a real person was being attended in a medical emergency, and was reportedly already ported with an IV when paramedics arrived, after 42 minutes of attendance during which they are treating him as not dead and administering IV injections, it is extremely unlikely that the patient would not be started on fluids within that amount of time.
- The official story is that Dr. Cooper was able to rouse some heart activity in the patient at UCLA for several minutes. This would be impossible if she were working on a stored corpse, and nearing impossible on a DWD patient who had consumed suicide medication 1 hour (or more) prior.
- If the patient were a DWD patient, then rescue efforts such as those described having been administered to MJ violates ethics on the part of MJ, Murray, and AEG (and any other potential producers/financial backers of DH), for knowingly allowing a person who’s will it was to end their life peacefully under their own control, be subjected to extreme methods of resuscitation for an extended duration of time. Successful or not, this action is a direct violation of this patient’s end of life wishes.
- Because of points 4, 5, 6, and 7, the paramedics and ER emergency Dr.’s are required to be in on it, so we lack motive of who the real body is designed to fool.
12 reasons supporting Live MJ theory
- MJ was reported to be “Alive at UCLA”.
- Allows for on-the-scene direction/consultation in case anything unforeseen ocurred which required on-the-spot changes or alterations in the plan.
- Completely eliminates the risk that the hoax will be ruined by MJ being discovered safe and hiding somewhere else, or sneaking away shortly before 6/25/09, when he is supposed to be suddenly dead/dying at UCLA that day.
- MJ had to leave Carrolwood somehow, at some point, same as above, allows MJ to not be discovered/seen leaving Carrolwood anytime sooner or later then reported.
- Eliminates the need for MJ to hide, be disguised, travel to, and arrange for insiders at a 2nd or 3rd location as would be necessary to coordinate if escaping via another means.
- Allows MJ to have photos taken as reported for gurney and autopsy, ensuring that those photos cannot be discovered too early (them being discovered to be in existence pre 6/25/09 would be a big problem), nor will those photos show up too late to potentially rouse suspicion of someone in a paperwork position not in on the hoax (autopsy was performed 6/26 so those pics needed to exist by then).
- Allows emergency workers to be able to accurately recall events because MJ is really there on the stretcher (probably really wearing that gown). Live simulations could be run through, in the time allowed at each location, to allow workers to have real memories, rather then fabricated alibis. MJ is not dealing with seasoned actors here, and they’re playing the role of their lives, so it is best if people are given an opportunity to have something real to remember.
- Allows validation of the official story should anyone not in on the hoax happen to catch a quick glimpse of the stretcher going by at any point along the way, they would really see MJ.
- Allows for unforeseen occurrences to be encountered (ambulance break down, unauthorized peaks through windows in locked doors, etc) because, just as reported, MJ is indeed just where he is supposed to be.
- Shortly after the ambulance arrives, the fire alarm was pulled in the portion of UCLA that MJ was reportedly in on 6/25/09, effectively minimizing the unauthorized opportunities outlined in points 8 & 9.
- Gives MJ a perfect escape out of UCLA, because again, he could do exactly as is reported and take the helicopter to the waiting coroner van. If he chose to go a different direction, even last minute, there would be dozens of other escape plans A-Z to explore out of the highly trafficked UCLA campus.
- Gives the official story a consistently interwoven element of truth; MJ really was attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ really did go to UCLA, MJ really did get transported via helicopter, MJ really did go to the coroner’s office.
- Explains why MJ’s kids stopped crying when they were done seeing their dad’s body, the scene as described by LaToya. They stopped crying because they saw Dad’s not dead.
- Explains Jermaine’s “slip up” airport comment. Jermaine said MJ wasn’t “with us long before he went to the airport… I mean hospital.” … which is 100% accurate. Just like Jermaine said. He said he meant hospital, and if we can’t trust Jermaine’s word as a true clue, what CAN we trust? :icon_geek:
- Changes the least amount of variables from the official story. The only thing that isn’t true is MJ being dead.
:compute:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 28, 2012, 12:52:32 AM
:th_bravo: GREAT list Bec....very powerful consolidation of all that we've discussed... now waiting for TS... :woohoo2:
Post by: curls on November 28, 2012, 02:18:40 AM
Ps. I hope I'm not walking into a trap. This feels a little like... "please... proceed." :suspect:
@Bec, if you are, then there's plenty of us walking right in there with you! :bearhug:
I can't help but feel a little :suspect: too! Especially when TS apparently thinks there's still going to be stuff for us to discuss after he replies!
"After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish;...."
@TS, are we going to get that completed puzzle at last? Pleeeeeease! :bowdown: :icon_bounce: :icon_lol:
Post by: ashprak247 on November 28, 2012, 02:25:13 AM
Over to you TS :bearhug:
BAM must be near as TS said update 7 is before bam or was it after bam?
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 28, 2012, 02:30:53 AM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 28, 2012, 02:53:52 AM
Your list is brilliant bec - well done! :smiley_abuv:
Ps. I hope I'm not walking into a trap. This feels a little like... "please... proceed." :suspect:
@Bec, if you are, then there's plenty of us walking right in there with you! :bearhug:
I can't help but feel a little :suspect: too! Especially when TS apparently thinks there's still going to be stuff for us to discuss after he replies!
"After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish;...."
@TS, are we going to get that completed puzzle at last? Pleeeeeease! :bowdown: :icon_bounce: :icon_lol:
what I understood by TS's post is that after he replies each and every point posted by Bec, we'll know what the whole story is...and it may NOT convince us completely and maybe that's what he meant by saying we can continue to discuss as long as we wish to. and we may not even have the whole puzzle solved, some of it's pieces can only be put into place after Michael bams... and certain things will be clear to us...
Post by: Jos on November 28, 2012, 03:52:14 AM
:th_bravo:
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 28, 2012, 04:04:44 AM
Post by: marumjj on November 28, 2012, 04:15:26 AM
I will not define my opinion now (I leave for my job now) Good job guys, see you then. :th_bravo:
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2012, 05:21:05 AM
Will be interested to read the responses from TS......(I have a few in mind already)
The dummy theory has not been discounted ........TS asked the following:
.............. to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include).
bec chose to go with the Live MJ theory - that does not equate to the dummy theory being discarded in my opinion.
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2012, 05:35:08 AM
Your list is brilliant bec - well done! :smiley_abuv:
Ps. I hope I'm not walking into a trap. This feels a little like... "please... proceed." :suspect:
@Bec, if you are, then there's plenty of us walking right in there with you! :bearhug:
I can't help but feel a little :suspect: too! Especially when TS apparently thinks there's still going to be stuff for us to discuss after he replies!
"After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish;...."
@TS, are we going to get that completed puzzle at last? Pleeeeeease! :bowdown: :icon_bounce: :icon_lol:
Perhaps TS is indicating that he will give honest answers to the list but if people aren't going to believe him then so be it (when do we believe TS and when don't we?).......TS has probably done all he can to let people know what took place on 6/25/09, particularly in respect to who or what went to UCLA. Members can take it or leave it I suppose. The one's that don't believe the answers can keep on researching for as long as they want, but perhaps TS won't be engaging with this convo any more......
That is how I read that line anyway.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 28, 2012, 05:45:15 AM
Ok TS, now it's your turn :icon_geek:
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 28, 2012, 05:52:06 AM
Fast work bec!
Will be interested to read the responses from TS......(I have a few in mind already)
The dummy theory has not been discounted ........TS asked the following:.............. to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include).
bec chose to go with the Live MJ theory - that does not equate to the dummy theory being discarded in my opinion.
Okay, thanks Adi.
Post by: MJonmind on November 28, 2012, 06:00:25 AM
For me personally this is all bringing clarity to so much confusion I was struggling with, or my brain was short-circuiting with so many thousands of bits of info.
Now, in back reading TS’s posts, it seems to me the main reasons for MJ not going to UCLA himself was the danger of the hoax plans being leaked to enemies of his, and that they might murder him—I’m guessing in the ambulance (seems he is saying not all medics are in ) or at the hospital (again only key people are in, same with at the coroner). And that the over-arching reasons for the hoax were most importantly the NWO and EOW scenarios, along with the message God had given MJ. The style of the hoax was MJ directing it from "behind the scenes", not on location. He has hired/relies on the best/most trusted he can find to carry out the staging--including the FBI bringing in the DWD patient. He has consistantly given this message but we were getting hit with so much contradictory info that confused us.
On killing him:
TS November 28, 2011, 04:18:49 AM
Quote
No, they probably would not follow the 12:21 and 2:26; but we are NOT discussing here if the ACTUALLY got him (and since we have these numbers, then they did not get him). Instead, we are discussing how MJ would PLAN for things to go. They could take him out any time after the (supposedly) "not breathing" point in time, and the world would think that MJ was already dead (or very nearly so). The risk therefore did not start at 2:26, the risk started a couple of hours before that.
Also, I am not saying that MJ found out that they were planning to get him that day. Rather, I'm saying he knew that there was a general threat out there (and had been there for a long time); and IF someone in the hoax leaked his plans, it would be an unnecessary risk to go to the hospital (and also escape from the hospital, with a lot of people around--not all of whom you can trust).
Yes, there was also risk while getting away in a plane, and afterwards; but much less people needed to know about the specifics of the getaway, than the people in on the hoax. You can't eliminate all risks, but you can minimize them.
TS_comments on November 27, 2011, 10:55:43 PM
So did the Illuminati outthink him? Or did he outthink them, AND FLY OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOURS BEFORE THE KICKOFF TIME? Just in case the answer to that question is not self-evident, Jermaine made it crystal clear in his “airport” slip/clue. But I’ll save the details on that for another post.
On the spiritual purpose being the main one for MJ's hoax:
And the teamwork of TS, TMZ and this forum:
TS on: November 29, 2011, 12:35:50 AM
Quote
Let me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30)….
I’ve said the following before, but it is worth repeating. This is the only hoax forum that I have ever posted on, and it is also the only hoax forum or website that TMZ ever linked to in their blogroll; this blogroll is no longer on their home page, but it is still on their website and still has a link to our forum on it {http://www.tmz.com/blogroll}. For a long time, many have thought that TMZ was just another unreliable tabloid media source—that they have merely been playing with hoax believers, and don’t really have any inside information about the hoax. Well, TS has always supported TMZ; and recently, La Toya also supported TMZ: “But there’s more to the story guys, and Harvey knows that; Harvey Levin knows that (don’t you Harvey).” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM}.
Post by: jono on November 28, 2012, 06:04:07 AM
A+
:bearhug:
Post by: BeTheChange on November 28, 2012, 06:11:23 AM
Will be interested to read the responses from TS......(I have a few in mind already)
Same here...on both counts lol. But kudos to bec for compiling the lists!
Adi:
Quote
Perhaps TS is indicating that he will give honest answers to the list but if people aren't going to believe him then so be it (when do we believe TS and when don't we?).......TS has probably done all he can to let people know what took place on 6/25/09, particularly in respect to who or what went to UCLA. Members can take it or leave it I suppose. The one's that don't believe the answers can keep on researching for as long as they want, but perhaps TS won't be engaging with this convo any more......
That is how I read that line anyway.
That's how I read it too.
All I know is that I can't wait for this to be wrapped up lol.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 28, 2012, 06:13:11 AM
This feels really good and right, and exciting! Thanks so much Bec!
For me personally this is all bringing clarity to so much confusion I was struggling with, or my brain was short-circuiting with so many thousands of bits of info.
Now, in back reading TS’s posts, it seems to me the main reasons for MJ not going to UCLA himself was the danger of the hoax plans being leaked to enemies of his, and that they might murder him—I’m guessing in the ambulance (seems he is saying not all medics are in ) or at the hospital (again only key people are in, same with at the coroner). And that the over-arching reasons for the hoax were most importantly the NWO and EOW scenarios, along with the message God had given MJ. The style of the hoax was MJ directing it from "behind the scenes", not on location. He has hired/relies on the best/most trusted he can find to carry out the staging--including the FBI bringing in the DWD patient. He has consistantly given this message but we were getting hit with so much contradictory info that confused us.
On killing him:
TS November 28, 2011, 04:18:49 AMQuoteNo, they probably would not follow the 12:21 and 2:26; but we are NOT discussing here if the ACTUALLY got him (and since we have these numbers, then they did not get him). Instead, we are discussing how MJ would PLAN for things to go. They could take him out any time after the (supposedly) "not breathing" point in time, and the world would think that MJ was already dead (or very nearly so). The risk therefore did not start at 2:26, the risk started a couple of hours before that.
Also, I am not saying that MJ found out that they were planning to get him that day. Rather, I'm saying he knew that there was a general threat out there (and had been there for a long time); and IF someone in the hoax leaked his plans, it would be an unnecessary risk to go to the hospital (and also escape from the hospital, with a lot of people around--not all of whom you can trust).
Yes, there was also risk while getting away in a plane, and afterwards; but much less people needed to know about the specifics of the getaway, than the people in on the hoax. You can't eliminate all risks, but you can minimize them.
TS_comments on November 27, 2011, 10:55:43 PM
So did the Illuminati outthink him? Or did he outthink them, AND FLY OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOURS BEFORE THE KICKOFF TIME? Just in case the answer to that question is not self-evident, Jermaine made it crystal clear in his “airport” slip/clue. But I’ll save the details on that for another post.
On the spiritual purpose being the main one for MJ's hoax:
And the teamwork of TS, TMZ and this forum:
TS on: November 29, 2011, 12:35:50 AMQuoteLet me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30)….[/quot
I’ve said the following before, but it is worth repeating. This is the only hoax forum that I have ever posted on, and it is also the only hoax forum or website that TMZ ever linked to in their blogroll; this blogroll is no longer on their home page, but it is still on their website and still has a link to our forum on it {http://www.tmz.com/blogroll}. For a long time, many have thought that TMZ was just another unreliable tabloid media source—that they have merely been playing with hoax believers, and don’t really have any inside information about the hoax. Well, TS has always supported TMZ; and recently, La Toya also supported TMZ: “But there’s more to the story guys, and Harvey knows that; Harvey Levin knows that (don’t you Harvey).” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM}.
@mjonmind - This is also along my lines of thinking regarding this hoax and Michael not risking putting himself in immediate danger should things not go as planned.
Post by: suspicious mind on November 28, 2012, 06:48:56 AM
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2012, 07:33:38 AM
Great job bec! It's good to finally have all of our reasons listed together on one big list.
You're up TS! :argue: :icon_lol: :icon_e_smile:
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 28, 2012, 07:38:57 AM
Post by: curls on November 28, 2012, 10:02:02 AM
I can't help but feel a little :suspect: too! Especially when TS apparently thinks there's still going to be stuff for us to discuss after he replies!
"After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish;...."
@TS, are we going to get that completed puzzle at last? Pleeeeeease! :bowdown: :icon_bounce: :icon_lol:
Perhaps TS is indicating that he will give honest answers to the list but if people aren't going to believe him then so be it (when do we believe TS and when don't we?).......TS has probably done all he can to let people know what took place on 6/25/09, particularly in respect to who or what went to UCLA. Members can take it or leave it I suppose. The one's that don't believe the answers can keep on researching for as long as they want, but perhaps TS won't be engaging with this convo any more......
That is how I read that line anyway.
Yes, that makes sense Adi.
Post by: curls on November 28, 2012, 10:05:51 AM
I can't help but feel a little :suspect: too! Especially when TS apparently thinks there's still going to be stuff for us to discuss after he replies!
"After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish;...."
@TS, are we going to get that completed puzzle at last? Pleeeeeease! :bowdown: :icon_bounce: :icon_lol:
what I understood by TS's post is that after he replies each and every point posted by Bec, we'll know what the whole story is...and it may NOT convince us completely and maybe that's what he meant by saying we can continue to discuss as long as we wish to. and we may not even have the whole puzzle solved, some of it's pieces can only be put into place after Michael bams... and certain things will be clear to us...
@Thriller, the 'puzzle' I was referring to was the one TS posted on Page 1 of this thread! Like you, I'm sure the bigger puzzle will not be solved just yet.
Post by: mindseye on November 28, 2012, 10:15:59 AM
@Bec
:th_bravo: GREAT list Bec....very powerful consolidation of all that we've discussed... now waiting for TS... :woohoo2:
I agree! Looking forward to TS reply and finally Level 7 :icon_e_biggrin:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 28, 2012, 10:30:56 AM
@Bec
:th_bravo: GREAT list Bec....very powerful consolidation of all that we've discussed... now waiting for TS... :woohoo2:
I agree! Looking forward to TS reply and finally Level 7 :icon_e_biggrin:
:abouttime: i'm afraid TS might come when i'd be sleeping...
Post by: bec on November 28, 2012, 10:49:01 AM
So is the dummy option now off the table?
Well it doesn't have to be, there's a few points under the Live MJ reasons that could work for a dummy as well (#s 8, 9, n 10, n to some extent #7), but it began to emerge that there were many more reasons supporting LiveMJ theory instead of dummy theory. Additionally, it occurred to me that the loudest and most vehement protest from TS last year regarding the LiveMJ theory is actually the theory's greatest strength... and I've heard that somewhere before:
Quote
You see, evil always goes for the jugular by attacking a person's greatest strength--back, Of a tHeOrY or Vision, MJJC 11/18/09
not that TS is evil, not at all, but it is a brilliant diversion tactic nonetheless.
TS protested that to have LiveMJ there would be too risky, because, what if he is discovered?!? Well exactly... let's go down that road: what IF he is discovered? Several points in the LiveMJ reasons list address this (1, 8, 9, 10, 12). Now flip it around, what if, during all the commotion on 6/25/09, MJ is discovered ELSEWHERE? Hoax over in one fell swoop. No amount of damage control or propaganda campaign can iron that out, it's game over: MJ is not dead, he's not in distress, and he's not at UCLA in the ER being worked on by emergency personnel. Problemo de grande.
So as unlikely as it might seem that MJ might be discovered elsewhere (where ever else he may have "escaped" to on 6/25/09), by MJ being any where other then on that stretcher, this risk exists and would be ever-present with any alternative method.
Ironically... if LiveMJ is there every step of the way, this vulnerability is completely negated-- MJ is never in two places at once, rather, he is always precisely where he is reported to be. In fact, what we have with this LiveMJ option, is complete and 100% elimination of this risk of hoax discovery, and how often did MJ have access to that kind of "insurance policy" on that day?
After 3+ years, and all that we have been able to assert regarding the events of that day, it seems to me that LiveMJ is actually the least risky option on the table.
(besides all that, no one offered any strong points for the dummy theory that didn't also work for LiveMJ-- during the events which TS asked us to focus on way back at the start of Level 7-- who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance-- I did not include the helicopter or coroner van transport, in fact in LiveMJ point 11, I leave that portion of the illusion open ended.)
Ps. On the topic of TS_comments being more or less done after completing Level 7... TS_comments may well be done participating here but recall... it is TS who posts the Updates, not TS_comments. Once Level 7 is completed, I'd actually expect TS_comments to be done, as the Levels of 2011 is where he took over from TS in the first place. We ought not assume they are the same person as they are not the same username.
Post by: Sarahli on November 28, 2012, 11:59:19 AM
So is the dummy option now off the table?
Well it doesn't have to be, there's a few points under the Live MJ reasons that could work for a dummy as well (#s 8, 9, n 10, n to some extent #7), but it began to emerge that there were many more reasons supporting LiveMJ theory instead of dummy theory. Additionally, it occurred to me that the loudest and most vehement protest from TS last year regarding the LiveMJ theory is actually the theory's greatest strength... and I've heard that somewhere before:QuoteYou see, evil always goes for the jugular by attacking a person's greatest strength--back, Of a tHeOrY or Vision, MJJC 11/18/09
not that TS is evil, not at all, but it is a brilliant diversion tactic nonetheless.
TS protested that to have LiveMJ there would be too risky, because, what if he is discovered?!? Well exactly... let's go down that road: what IF he is discovered? Several points in the LiveMJ reasons list address this (1, 8, 9, 10, 12). Now flip it around, what if, during all the commotion on 6/25/09, MJ is discovered ELSEWHERE? Hoax over in one fell swoop. No amount of damage control or propaganda campaign can iron that out, it's game over: MJ is not dead, he's not in distress, and he's not at UCLA in the ER being worked on by emergency personnel. Problemo de grande.
So as unlikely as it might seem that MJ might be discovered elsewhere (where ever else he may have "escaped" to on 6/25/09), by MJ being any where other then on that stretcher, this risk exists and would be ever-present with any alternative method.
Ironically... if LiveMJ is there every step of the way, this vulnerability is completely negated-- MJ is never in two places at once, rather, he is always precisely where he is reported to be. In fact, what we have with this LiveMJ option, is complete and 100% elimination of this risk of hoax discovery, and how often did MJ have access to that kind of "insurance policy" on that day?
After 3+ years, and all that we have been able to assert regarding the events of that day, it seems to me that LiveMJ is actually the least risky option on the table.
(besides all that, no one offered any strong points for the dummy theory that didn't also work for LiveMJ-- during the events which TS asked us to focus on way back at the start of Level 7-- who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance-- I did not include the helicopter or coroner van transport, in fact in LiveMJ point 11, I leave that portion of the illusion open ended.)
Ps. On the topic of TS_comments being more or less done after completing Level 7... TS_comments may well be done participating here but recall... it is TS who posts the Updates, not TS_comments. Once Level 7 is completed, I'd actually expect TS_comments to be done, as the Levels of 2011 is where he took over from TS in the first place. We ought not assume they are the same person as they are not the same username.
So what I understand according to this point is that Michael would always have to be where he is supposed to be in order to not expose the Hoax. Which doesn't make sense because of course at some point he is going to move/travel anyway and the risk to be discovered isn't going to change as far as I can see. The FBI would escort him with the same amount of safety on June 25th or any other day. Actually wouldn't it be best to escape/leave that day while everybody thinks he is in L.A./UCLA? Maybe.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 28, 2012, 01:13:15 PM
It always stuck in my mind . Maybe Michael being shown laying on a stretcher that is no longer used in the hospital is supposed to convey something, possibly the clue lies in the name: renaissance, which in lower case means a renewal of life, vigor, interest, etc.; rebirth; revival: a moral renaissance. It’s described as a Stryker “frame”: frame can be informally defined as either (a.) To make up evidence or contrive events so as to incriminate a person falsely; or (b.) to prearrange so as to ensure a desired fraudulent outcome; fix.
At any rate, the information contained in this video virtually convinced me that the photo was faked.
Or…it could have been staged to show us that this ladies and gentlemen is my clue to you that this is the beginning of the hoax :thjajaja121:
Post by: emulik on November 28, 2012, 01:16:19 PM
tomorrow is 11/29... who knows what that day will bring..good news, hopefully :icon_bounce:
Post by: paula-c on November 28, 2012, 02:02:28 PM
Quote
Hi folks,
I remarked on this video several months ago and it just came to me to find it again and re-view it. It is the video of the Congressional Black Caucus Tribute to Michael Jackson and features beautifully eloquent speakers.
I would encourage people who haven't seen it to watch both parts.
However, what I want to draw particular attention to are the comments of Congresswoman Watson, who, in part I, @ 35:30 says the following( bold are my emphasis):
"I want you to know that the Los Angeles community, the state of California, and the nation, we're all concerned about Michael Jackson's death.
And uh, I'm in contact with the family, and the people who handle his career involvement, and I assured them that come out into the open becaanything untoward about Michael will use, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is involved in this lengthly investigation. So just know, you might be sitting there and saying why is it taking so long, that they are studying every intricate detail of his life, and his death, and what happened afterwards. So just know, that within a short while, justice will out, and justice will be done. Have faith."
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,23480.0.html
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=banoDxROih4[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D5EOMomQsw4[/youtube]
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 28, 2012, 03:08:30 PM
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 28, 2012, 03:35:59 PM
:icon_e_wink:
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2012, 03:59:09 PM
So is the dummy option now off the table?
Well it doesn't have to be, there's a few points under the Live MJ reasons that could work for a dummy as well (#s 8, 9, n 10, n to some extent #7), but it began to emerge that there were many more reasons supporting LiveMJ theory instead of dummy theory. Additionally, it occurred to me that the loudest and most vehement protest from TS last year regarding the LiveMJ theory is actually the theory's greatest strength... and I've heard that somewhere before:QuoteYou see, evil always goes for the jugular by attacking a person's greatest strength--back, Of a tHeOrY or Vision, MJJC 11/18/09
not that TS is evil, not at all, but it is a brilliant diversion tactic nonetheless.
TS protested that to have LiveMJ there would be too risky, because, what if he is discovered?!? Well exactly... let's go down that road: what IF he is discovered? Several points in the LiveMJ reasons list address this (1, 8, 9, 10, 12). Now flip it around, what if, during all the commotion on 6/25/09, MJ is discovered ELSEWHERE? Hoax over in one fell swoop. No amount of damage control or propaganda campaign can iron that out, it's game over: MJ is not dead, he's not in distress, and he's not at UCLA in the ER being worked on by emergency personnel. Problemo de grande.
So as unlikely as it might seem that MJ might be discovered elsewhere (where ever else he may have "escaped" to on 6/25/09), by MJ being any where other then on that stretcher, this risk exists and would be ever-present with any alternative method.
Ironically... if LiveMJ is there every step of the way, this vulnerability is completely negated-- MJ is never in two places at once, rather, he is always precisely where he is reported to be. In fact, what we have with this LiveMJ option, is complete and 100% elimination of this risk of hoax discovery, and how often did MJ have access to that kind of "insurance policy" on that day?
After 3+ years, and all that we have been able to assert regarding the events of that day, it seems to me that LiveMJ is actually the least risky option on the table.
(besides all that, no one offered any strong points for the dummy theory that didn't also work for LiveMJ-- during the events which TS asked us to focus on way back at the start of Level 7-- who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance-- I did not include the helicopter or coroner van transport, in fact in LiveMJ point 11, I leave that portion of the illusion open ended.)
Ps. On the topic of TS_comments being more or less done after completing Level 7... TS_comments may well be done participating here but recall... it is TS who posts the Updates, not TS_comments. Once Level 7 is completed, I'd actually expect TS_comments to be done, as the Levels of 2011 is where he took over from TS in the first place. We ought not assume they are the same person as they are not the same username.
So what I understand according to this point is that Michael would always have to be where he is supposed to be in order to not expose the Hoax. Which doesn't make sense because of course at some point he is going to move/travel anyway and the risk to be discovered isn't going to change as far as I can see. The FBI would escort him with the same amount of safety on June 25th or any other day. Actually wouldn't it be best to escape/leave that day while everybody thinks he is in L.A./UCLA? Maybe.
If Michael was discovered anywhere but UCLA that day the hoax could’ve been over as soon as it had begun. If he didn’t go to UCLA there is the risk, however minimal, of being caught. Actually being where he was reported to have been means there is zero chance of someone seeing him in a different location at the same time. The trail goes cold after the coroner van gets to the coroner’s so Michael can then get to where he needs to go, in cloak-and-dagger style, having successfully convinced everyone he’s died that day. And bec makes a great argument that had something happened to the ambulance or at UCLA and someone saw the person on the stretcher, it would be a visual confirmation that it was Michael and not anything/anyone else. Live MJ playing dead MJ also works best with the movie aspect of the hoax.
Post by: angelbabe1 on November 28, 2012, 04:13:50 PM
Thanks for all your hard work Bec !I ditto that Bec, Thanks so much for your time and great work... :bearhug:
:icon_e_wink:
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 28, 2012, 04:29:12 PM
Respect!
Shy
Post by: MJonmind on November 28, 2012, 05:12:41 PM
Bec, just a thought, I feel that IF there is any truth to 'live MJ on death scene' scenario, TS will NOT admit to it perhaps for safety or other reasons, but who knows. We will have to wait for 1/1/2013 to see if he is a 'fake informer', which I very much doubt, but what do I know. MJ may want some things to ALWAYS remain in the realms of mystery. TS said, "A magician never reveals how he does a trick". I completely trust MJ, thus TS and Front, but the complexity and layers to the Man and the Message are what make me want to trust what he tells us happened, with an open mind to future revelations.
TS, just a question, how did our investigation do in regards to the planned projection of how you thought it would do before kick-off day? Did we uncover most of the 'easter eggs', get informed on side issues that affect our world negatively, spend too much time with clutter, enjoy your 'adventure' as much as you thought we would? Did we bring you a measure of joy and satisfaction? We literally poured our lives into this for 3 1/2 years, and I'd loved to know your thoughts on that. Thank you so much for the gift you gave us. We've been blessed off the scale.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 28, 2012, 05:17:39 PM
ps: good job Bec!.
Post by: Sarahli on November 28, 2012, 05:28:04 PM
Quote
Hello:
Thank you for contacting our office about the Washington State Death with Dignity Act.
Under the terms of the act, the participant is not restricted to a location where they must ingest the medication. However, the laws in states in which there is not a similar comparable DWDA law differ regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication. For example, if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease. In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose. In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as ‘Natural”.
The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member’s participation were to be disclosed. They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as “assisted suicide.” The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.
There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State’s law.
http://www.doh.wa.gov/Home.aspx
Post by: ashprak247 on November 28, 2012, 06:38:38 PM
" If there were no clues about the hoax, then the FBI and/or MJ could be accused of entrapment. However, and I’m going to let another cat out of the bag here: the hoax forums are a very strong defense against entrapment. If the FBI or MJ were ever charged of entrapment, all they would need to do is point to the hoax forums as proof that anybody could’ve figured out MJ did not die, if they really wanted to figure it out.
The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it.
On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse. Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital). If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine. And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about. "
Post by: blankie on November 28, 2012, 06:43:57 PM
Post by: ashprak247 on November 28, 2012, 06:44:43 PM
" MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan). "
" For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777)."
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 28, 2012, 07:01:57 PM
Post by: Adi on November 28, 2012, 07:14:31 PM
In regards to the DWD act allowing (or not) a patient to ingest the drugs in another state: I had sent an email asking that specific question to the Washington State Department of Health and I received the following answer; they confirm that it is possible:QuoteHello:
Thank you for contacting our office about the Washington State Death with Dignity Act.
Under the terms of the act, the participant is not restricted to a location where they must ingest the medication. However, the laws in states in which there is not a similar comparable DWDA law differ regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication. For example, if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease. In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose. In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as ‘Natural”.
The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member’s participation were to be disclosed. They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as “assisted suicide.” The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.
There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State’s law.
http://www.doh.wa.gov/Home.aspx
Good thinking Sarahli!
Interesting response from them.
Post by: paula-c on November 28, 2012, 07:28:37 PM
Quote
if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease. In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose. In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as ‘Natural”
Quote
There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State’s law
I suppose that the issues to consider would be legal. :icon_question:
Post by: Andrea on November 28, 2012, 08:41:09 PM
So there is a way for a DWD patient to end their life in a non-DWD state.
Is that concrete evidence that a real dead body was used in the hoax? I realize that a DWD patient would be the best option to get a corpse for the hoax but the ability to attain one isn't proof that it was done. I still don't see the NEED for a real dead body, based on the evidence we have of the actions of those who had contact with the body.
There has been more support for the corpse theory in the last month than ever, I think. What am I not understanding? :computer-losy-smiley:
:icon_neutral:
Post by: bec on November 28, 2012, 09:49:48 PM
So there is a way for a DWD patient to end their life in a non-DWD state.
Is that concrete evidence that a real dead body was used in the hoax? I realize that a DWD patient would be the best option to get a corpse for the hoax but the ability to attain one isn't proof that it was done. I still don't see the NEED for a real dead body, based on the evidence we have of the actions of those who had contact with the body.
There has been more support for the corpse theory in the last month than ever, I think. What am I not understanding? :computer-losy-smiley:
:icon_neutral:
I think she was just making a comment more then anything.
When I was writing all those posts about debunking DWD patient, I kept tripping over how to explain it because it's difficult.
See, suicide isn't against the law in very many states (and it's not in California)... for obvious reasons. I mean, how do you hold someone accountable for suicide? If they successfully commit the act, they die. If they do not successfully commit the act then they are only guilty of attempted suicide... and that's not a crime either.
So you can call it whatever you want; DWD, suicide, choosing to control the time and manner of which one's own death; regardless, someone kills them selves you have to define it somehow. Suicide is technically correct.
That's not the issue. You can kill yourself and not worry about suffering legal consequences. (well other then life insurance payouts n other death benefits possibly being withheld, but that's Off Topic for our purposes of debate)
Ironically, with suicide, in legalities as much as with emotions, it's the one's who get left behind that will suffer.
(Again, I'm not a lawyer, not even close, this is just how the law reads, and how it's been applied by the courts in CA.)
Because DWD is not legal in CA, and the CA penal code specifically lays out how the state law considers a second party's knowledge of or encouragement for suicide, it would be illegal for MJ and AEG (or equivalent--whoever is the production company working with MJ) to use a DWD patient to help MJ fake his death. They would already be guilty of failure to report, encouraging suicide, facilitating a suicide: essentially aiding and abetting a suicide. These are felony crimes.
It's not a crime because someone died, the dead person and their estate will not be charged, nor will the out of state doctor who prescribed the Rx be charged either. That's not the crime. The crime is the idle bystanders who are anticipating the death and are keeping it a secret, worse, (as it could be easy alleged) with intention to profit from it. It's a crime because in this scenario, they (MJ, Murray, and AEG) encouraged and aided someone to die and kept secret from law enforcement that someone was planning to die, and that person did subsequently end their own life. In California, basically, if you know someone is sincerely planning to commit suicide, you have a duty to at least report it to emergency services. Further, you have an additional duty to NOT do or say anything that might encourage a suicidal person to act. If you do somehow encourage, facilitate, or aid the suicidal person, and the person succeeds (dies), you can and will be charged with a felony in the state.
It wouldn't matter if MJ and Murray left the room while the person actually ingested the meds. Their actions up until that point, and the subsequent death of the patient are what makes them guilty of aiding and abetting a suicide in the eyes of CA law. It doesn't matter how the patient himself sees it, or how we see it, the law in CA sees it as a felony for anyone to aid or abet a suicide.
Conversely, in WA or OR, people can openly attend the last moments of a DWD's life, know about it ahead of time (no duty to report), and help make it a positive experience for a person seeking end of life council and support without being subject to prosecution by law enforcement. It happens in other states (suicide by hospice patients), certainly, but it's done very hush hush and people have to hide and lie. Laws regarding suicide similar to the one in California are why. The California statute is specific in how it views witnesses (friends and family usually) involved with DWD-type decisions, and it is particularly rigid.
This is what makes Point #1 against dead body point #1, but it's also the hardest thing to explain, for me, somehow. I always end up with a novel.
Ps. You guys are all so sweet with your nice posts to me about the lists. My reply is it was my pleasure entirely, I am at your service. Everyone who pm'ed me and contributed, thank you again.
Post by: scorpionchik on November 28, 2012, 10:13:56 PM
I am not putting all my hopes on TS' replies because I am almost sure that the real hoax story will be written in a book or filmed in a movie and I am even thinking that the whole world will be able to be aware of Michael being alive but Michael himself will not be exposed to the public eye anymore for safety reasons so BAM party is being just a chimera right now for me.
ps: good job Bec!.
good point,but I think if MJ does not appear personally, non believers will not believe announcement that MJ is alive esp. after death announcement by Jermain, unless Obama annouces himself. So, no point to spread 'alive' news without Michael actual BAM.
Plus, remember MJ hint 'BAM' himslef in TII. /b]
Post by: ellyd on November 28, 2012, 10:22:09 PM
Given the fact that MJ decided to die on a certain date and planned this, we are talking about his (allegorical, artistic and assisted) suicide - he used the concept of DWD. Before handing power over his life to others, he decided himself when it would be time to leave.
MJ was however not - as to my knowledge - a terminally ill person trying to speed inevitable things up. Not to mix up.
MJ's role in the script turned out to be that of willing suicide hidden by "death by negligent prescription of controlled and uncontrolled drugs" and not that of a DWD participant - but not ending and only beginning anew from that turning point.
This will be one of the outcomes of a BAM: revelation of an assisted suicide on purpose (in order to bring to daylight other crimes). No matter what legal situations are, the discussions about DWD will start as soon as MJ returns and truth is revealed.
We can calmly anticipate the heated discussions - TS brought it up in time because he's clear about the consequences and the uproar.
DWD is a controversial matter but from European perspective, we are more used to this kind of self-determined shortening of suffering. Who works in hospices will know what death looks like and it is not always very pleasant - if the people get into this supportive environment at all. We need many more hospices to keep dignity alive for dying persons.
It is the same kind of controversial discussion that was raised (and still is causing war among fundamentalists in the U.S.) about abortion. Just that fundamentalists usually do not help in a specific case, unfortunately.
It will be interesting to see the responses to MJ's "assisted suicide" and I guess we will be in duty pretty much to help explain the why's. Blessings to all.
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 28, 2012, 11:04:35 PM
I still stand by my belief that it cannot be a DWD patient but we'll see as the truth will prevail in the end.
Very interesting.
Blessings to each of you.
Post by: bec on November 28, 2012, 11:25:38 PM
In my understanding, DWD do stress that their approach is not comparable to suicide but only speeding up a natural death that would occur anyway.
[philosophical mode] Ah, but isn't that what all untimely deaths are? Time is a one way street with no loitering. [/philosophical mode]
Post by: Love4Michael on November 28, 2012, 11:55:45 PM
We’ve peeked in every corner
Dug deep under each new rock
Wrestled with all the hints and whispers
Whether shadows or a clock
We’ve googled ‘til our minds were numb
And eyes seemed permanently crossed
We’ve kept a brave front to all who say
Our minds we surely had lost
We were promised a great adventure
And willingly accepted the ride
For the highest highs and lowest lows
And sometimes our patience was tried
But as I sit and write this little piece
My mind is pretty well certain
That all still here would never trade
One moment behind the curtain
As we near this rides conclusion
At least that’s what most believe
Seems we’re on the cusp of finding out
What The Man had up his sleeve
I pray everything’s as it needs to be
As we slowly draw back the veil
May our hearts be happy and smiles abound
As we finally, collectively exhale
At least we'll hopefully have an AH HAA moment or two and some deeper knowledge and better preparation for the finale. I have to say that I'm excited but apprehensive all at the same time. Oh well...I just want things to go however Michael wants them to and I want him to be happy at the outcome.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2012, 12:10:37 AM
@TS, I have several more reasons then a dozen. I tried to whittle the list down to the meatiest parts, but, well, it's all main course and not a single leftover. But on the plus side I gave you a whole extra day to deal with the extra work before your dead(ha)line!
Thank you to everyone who pm'ed me with good info. I hope I have done us all justice with these lists. Here goes...
12 reasons against dead body theory
- The chances of someone other then MJ that looks enough like MJ to fool everyone ( double) dying of natural means (or Propofol) in accordance with the numerology, perfectly on time, who also happened to be residing at Carrolwood that day is a statistical impossibility.
- Assisted suicide or DWD is against the law in California. California penal code section 401: Every person who deliberately aids, or advises, or encourages a person to commit suicide, is guilty of a felony. MJ, Murray, and AEG would all be guilty in accordance with the wording of the law.
- A real body would need to get into Carrolwood somehow and at some point. On 6/25/09, the staff was sent out of the house before the stretcher came down indicating that they were not in on, so therefore would need to be shielded from the body’s arrival as well.
- A real body would need to be stored until go time. Dead bodies are messy n ought not be stored in private residences and few private residences would be set up to properly house a corpse. This is a public health risk that would necessitate specific accommodations. This is also a zoning violation (at best), and potentially a small string of misdemeanors and minor felonies resulting from abuse of a corpse, tampering with a corpse, others.
- If a real body were frozen to facilitate storage, it would be at the wrong temperature to fool emergency workers, and by the time the core was thawed, the outer tissues would be mush. Additionally, once-frozen-now-thawed tissue is distinctive and shows up clearly upon autopsy.
- A fresh dead corpse would be subject to rigor mortis within minutes and lasting for hours, making entubulation of the airway/locating and tapping a vein impossible.
- It was reported that the body was ID’ed from MJ’s driver’s license at the hospital. Neither a DWD patient nor a random corpse could be ID’ed as MJ from a pic of MJ.
- UCLA spokesperson did not make a statement in the death of MJ, counter to what is typical with a high profile death at a hospital. Instead, Jermaine Jackson made the statement. UCLA specifically dodged making any kind of statement regarding MJ at all, rather printing the family’s prewritten words instead.
- No doctor came forward initially to sign the death certificate. If there were a real body entering UCLA that day, there should be no problem getting a DC for it signed.
- The body wouldn’t look like MJ and ambulance/gurney/autopsy pics clearly depict MJ, and not an apparent hospice patient as was testified by paramedics.
- Makes the entire story, start to finish, a lie. MJ was not attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ didn’t go to UCLA, MJ didn’t get transported via helicopter, MJ did not go to the coroner’s office.
- Both paramedics that testified attested that the patient looked like MJ. A DWD patient or random corpse are not going to resemble MJ enough for both paramedics to testify that they recognized him.
- No IV drip was witnessed suspended above the patient in the stretcher gif and if a real person was being attended in a medical emergency, and was reportedly already ported with an IV when paramedics arrived, after 42 minutes of attendance during which they are treating him as not dead and administering IV injections, it is extremely unlikely that the patient would not be started on fluids within that amount of time.
- The official story is that Dr. Cooper was able to rouse some heart activity in the patient at UCLA for several minutes. This would be impossible if she were working on a stored corpse, and nearing impossible on a DWD patient who had consumed suicide medication 1 hour (or more) prior.
- If the patient were a DWD patient, then rescue efforts such as those described having been administered to MJ violates ethics on the part of MJ, Murray, and AEG (and any other potential producers/financial backers of DH), for knowingly allowing a person who’s will it was to end their life peacefully under their own control, be subjected to extreme methods of resuscitation for an extended duration of time. Successful or not, this action is a direct violation of this patient’s end of life wishes.
- Because of points 4, 5, 6, and 7, the paramedics and ER emergency Dr.’s are required to be in on it, so we lack motive of who the real body is designed to fool.
12 reasons supporting Live MJ theory
- MJ was reported to be “Alive at UCLA”.
- Allows for on-the-scene direction/consultation in case anything unforeseen ocurred which required on-the-spot changes or alterations in the plan.
- Completely eliminates the risk that the hoax will be ruined by MJ being discovered safe and hiding somewhere else, or sneaking away shortly before 6/25/09, when he is supposed to be suddenly dead/dying at UCLA that day.
- MJ had to leave Carrolwood somehow, at some point, same as above, allows MJ to not be discovered/seen leaving Carrolwood anytime sooner or later then reported.
- Eliminates the need for MJ to hide, be disguised, travel to, and arrange for insiders at a 2nd or 3rd location as would be necessary to coordinate if escaping via another means.
- Allows MJ to have photos taken as reported for gurney and autopsy, ensuring that those photos cannot be discovered too early (them being discovered to be in existence pre 6/25/09 would be a big problem), nor will those photos show up too late to potentially rouse suspicion of someone in a paperwork position not in on the hoax (autopsy was performed 6/26 so those pics needed to exist by then).
- Allows emergency workers to be able to accurately recall events because MJ is really there on the stretcher (probably really wearing that gown). Live simulations could be run through, in the time allowed at each location, to allow workers to have real memories, rather then fabricated alibis. MJ is not dealing with seasoned actors here, and they’re playing the role of their lives, so it is best if people are given an opportunity to have something real to remember.
- Allows validation of the official story should anyone not in on the hoax happen to catch a quick glimpse of the stretcher going by at any point along the way, they would really see MJ.
- Allows for unforeseen occurrences to be encountered (ambulance break down, unauthorized peaks through windows in locked doors, etc) because, just as reported, MJ is indeed just where he is supposed to be.
- Shortly after the ambulance arrives, the fire alarm was pulled in the portion of UCLA that MJ was reportedly in on 6/25/09, effectively minimizing the unauthorized opportunities outlined in points 8 & 9.
- Gives MJ a perfect escape out of UCLA, because again, he could do exactly as is reported and take the helicopter to the waiting coroner van. If he chose to go a different direction, even last minute, there would be dozens of other escape plans A-Z to explore out of the highly trafficked UCLA campus.
- Gives the official story a consistently interwoven element of truth; MJ really was attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ really did go to UCLA, MJ really did get transported via helicopter, MJ really did go to the coroner’s office.
- Explains why MJ’s kids stopped crying when they were done seeing their dad’s body, the scene as described by LaToya. They stopped crying because they saw Dad’s not dead.
- Explains Jermaine’s “slip up” airport comment. Jermaine said MJ wasn’t “with us long before he went to the airport… I mean hospital.” … which is 100% accurate. Just like Jermaine said. He said he meant hospital, and if we can’t trust Jermaine’s word as a true clue, what CAN we trust? :icon_geek:
- Changes the least amount of variables from the official story. The only thing that isn’t true is MJ being dead.
:compute:
great post. logical indeed. just sharing it now with a few fence sitting friends :icon_razz:
thanks bec and to those who contributed
awesome stuff! :smiley_abuv:
Post by: RedPennylocks on November 29, 2012, 12:14:55 AM
I know this isn't the usual place for such things but this came to me and seemed appropriate to post here while we await a response from TS. Bec gave him LOTS of homework right back...LOL. Anyway...much thanks to our "whisperers" along the way and to Souza for not giving up. I know it HAD to be tempting from time to time. So in honor of everyone...our determination and of course our brilliant minds...
We’ve peeked in every corner
Dug deep under each new rock
Wrestled with all the hints and whispers
Whether shadows or a clock
We’ve googled ‘til our minds were numb
And eyes seemed permanently crossed
We’ve kept a brave front to all who say
Our minds we surely had lost
We were promised a great adventure
And willingly accepted the ride
For the highest highs and lowest lows
And sometimes our patience was tried
But as I sit and write this little piece
My mind is pretty well certain
That all still here would never trade
One moment behind the curtain
As we near this rides conclusion
At least that’s what most believe
Seems we’re on the cusp of finding out
What The Man had up his sleeve
I pray everything’s as it needs to be
As we slowly draw back the veil
May our hearts be happy and smiles abound
As we finally, collectively exhale
At least we'll hopefully have an AH HAA moment or two and some deeper knowledge and better preparation for the finale. I have to say that I'm excited but apprehensive all at the same time. Oh well...I just want things to go however Michael wants them to and I want him to be happy at the outcome.
:th_bravo: :bearhug:
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2012, 12:20:35 AM
Great job, Bec! :beerchug: I can hardly wait to read the replies from TS.
true.
mr. Ihaveananswerforeverything LOL
with :smiley_abuv: TS .... and hearts
Post by: mjselfsweet on November 29, 2012, 12:49:19 AM
Bec your lists were great!
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 29, 2012, 01:14:31 AM
In regards to the DWD act allowing (or not) a patient to ingest the drugs in another state: I had sent an email asking that specific question to the Washington State Department of Health and I received the following answer; they confirm that it is possible:QuoteHello:
Thank you for contacting our office about the Washington State Death with Dignity Act.
Under the terms of the act, the participant is not restricted to a location where they must ingest the medication. However, the laws in states in which there is not a similar comparable DWDA law differ regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication. For example, if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease. In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose. In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as ‘Natural”.
The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member’s participation were to be disclosed. They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as “assisted suicide.” The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.
There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State’s law.
http://www.doh.wa.gov/Home.aspx
That's it !
...DWDA is not covered in other states other than OR/WA and it's a CRIME in California...
And that only brings us to Live MJ theory.
this is so clear, in no way Michael would have used DWDA, even if the FBI's with him (because it's not gonna go against the law)
Post by: MJonmind on November 29, 2012, 01:23:48 AM
Ellyd
Quote
MJ's role in the script turned out to be that of willing suicide hidden by "death by negligent prescription of controlled and uncontrolled drugs" and not that of a DWD participant - but not ending and only beginning anew from that turning point.It's going to be interesting then. Teddy Riley said MJ lives for controversy.
This will be one of the outcomes of a BAM: revelation of an assisted suicide on purpose (in order to bring to daylight other crimes). No matter what legal situations are, the discussions about DWD will start as soon as MJ returns and truth is revealed.
We can calmly anticipate the heated discussions - TS brought it up in time because he's clear about the consequences and the uproar.
I found this moving Canadian story of a woman who travelled to Switzerland to die. Apparently the police leave these families alone/look the other way when they come back home. However MJ, Murray and AEG are not the DWD patient's loved ones.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/fyi/death-with-dignity-and-deceit-84838012.html
Quote
In Britain, which has anti-assisted suicide laws similar to Canada, researcher Ogden said prosecutors have consistently chosen to practise "judicial discretion" and not charge any of the loved ones who might have supported the 134 citizens who ended their days at Dignitas, including those whose cases hit the news. Ogden believes Canadian prosecutors would likely follow the same course of inaction in regards to Kay.So maybe MJ is trying to raise awareness of this. I think abortion is more detrimental that DWD (yet perfectly legal), because it's ending a life that didn't get a chance to experience anything, and that child didn't get to choose, whereas the DWD patient chooses.
For her part, Lee said her mother hoped that Canadians would learn the story of her death. "She wants people in Canada to talk about it. She believes it's a choice Canadians should have."
Post by: bec on November 29, 2012, 01:47:54 AM
mr. Ihaveananswerforeverything LOL
Cheers to that. I await tomorrow not having any idea what to expect.
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4558/mousesnake01jn5.jpg)
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2012, 02:19:19 AM
No-one here knows for sure what went down that day........it is all personal interpretation, conjecture, perception and speculation based on what we have been shown, told and read.....an iceberg has the the greatest percentage of it unseen and lurking under water.
Post by: jono on November 29, 2012, 02:28:25 AM
Because DWD is not legal in CA, and the CA penal code specifically lays out how the state law considers a second party's knowledge of or encouragement for suicide, it would be illegal for MJ and AEG (or equivalent--whoever is the production company working with MJ) to use a DWD patient to help MJ fake his death. They would already be guilty of failure to report, encouraging suicide, facilitating a suicide: essentially aiding and abetting a suicide. These are felony crimes.
I am looking forward to your answer on this one TS! :D
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2012, 03:15:21 AM
Yes - I don't think anyone here should be getting too smug about the outcome of the replies which TS will give.
not being smug. more comical. coz we never get it 100% right. no matter how much hoaxers deduce, imagine, fill in the gaps, think, etc etc always so close / so far. :icon_razz:
you are right, only one person knows it all. :bowdown:
frikken genius i must say!
Post by: finfin on November 29, 2012, 03:31:12 AM
Quote from bec
"Ps. On the topic of TS_comments being more or less done after completing Level 7... TS_comments may well be done participating here but recall... it is TS who posts the Updates, not TS_comments. Once Level 7 is completed, I'd actually expect TS_comments to be done, as the Levels of 2011 is where he took over from TS in the first place. We ought not assume they are the same person as they are not the same username."
A couple of hints and whispers regarding the dummy theory - please watch LunaJo67 video and a timeline inconsistency mentioned that I hadn't realised. Plus odd TMZ report in 2009 - sorry I don't know how to post TMZ vids. Going to work now - love to all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNXckVRi4zo
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNXckVRi4zo[/youtube]
http://www.tmz.com/2009/04/28/jacko-ahead-of-curve-on-swine-flu/
Post by: marumjj on November 29, 2012, 03:51:42 AM
6. A fresh corpse would be subject to rigor mortis in minutes and lasts for hours, so the airway entubulation / locate and tap a vein impossible.
Blount finds that one of the paramedics tried at least three times to find a vein in the hand or arm. DDA Q: Do you have any reason why they could not find a vein? Is it in his experience, people who are so skinny they are, that the drug that is difficult to find a vein? Blount gives an example of a known drug addict with tattoos and is still able to find a vein. DDA Q: Even so, at the same time can be difficult. The witness agrees. They did their normal protocol.
DDA Q: If someone has no viable heart rhythm, then the blood can not circulate through the body one of the things that happens is the veins collapse and can be difficult to access. Blount: Right.
7. It was reported that the body was ID'ed driver's license of Michael Jackson at the hospital. Neither the patient nor a corpse Random DWD could ID'ed as a photo of MJ MJ.
Dr. Cooper:
She lists the "starter drugs" That Were Given to Michael Jackson additionally. They Were not effective. Time spent on the patient, 1 hour, 26 minutes. She made the decision at 2:26 pm to call the patient deceased (stop treatment).
Blood was drawn from the patient for medical testing later. When Jackson arrived at UCLA, I was Given a medical record number / name to track everything Until the patient is formally registered. Gershwin was the name Given to Michael Jackson, That things can be so recorded and labeled so They Can Immediately perform care.
If MJ admitted to UCLA as MJ because Dr. Cooper registration Gershwin?
It is common to give people false names until they are registered "formally"?
12. The two certified paramedics who testified that the patient appeared MJ. A corpse or randomly DWD patient will not look like MJ enough for two paramedics to testify that they recognized.
Blount said Dr Murray in the ambulance taking the phone and make a phone call. While working on the patient, Blount heard was Michael Jackson and he recognized him as Michael Jackson.
Having read many publications on DWD Act and its application in CA, I would say that both theories may have been used, but the MJ theory alive, is more likely to "everyone" and are aware that if a crime if we think that the trial was real.
:bearhug:s
Post by: diggyon on November 29, 2012, 04:05:30 AM
TS, please save our brains, please!!!
Post by: MJonmind on November 29, 2012, 05:06:38 AM
Poor mouse... MJ, the master story-teller! :affraid:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430048.html#msg430048
Post by: marumjj on November 29, 2012, 05:09:03 AM
Waiting mode....
TS, please save our brains, please!!!
diggy you mean mental health? I think you can consider me out :LolLolLolLol: :abouttime:
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 29, 2012, 05:44:16 AM
Post by: diggyon on November 29, 2012, 06:13:45 AM
Waiting mode....
TS, please save our brains, please!!!
diggy you mean mental health? I think you can consider me out :LolLolLolLol: :abouttime:
Lucky you !!! :LolLolLolLol:
Post by: bugsy on November 29, 2012, 07:19:58 AM
Bec, good pic choice!
Poor mouse... MJ, the master story-teller! :affraid:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430048.html#msg430048
i always feel so sad for those mouses who have no chance of survive in anyway, i always find it so cruel... :(
But maybe i'm to sensitive about these things,for excample: i have rescued ants from drowning in the water, my stephdad always laughed at me for that.
You're not alone in your sensitivity :P I have saved so many different insects, reptiles, rodents, birds... I can't bare seeing any living thing suffering even if half of them are pests in and around the home, just can't harm them or watch them suffer.. my parents look at me like I grew a couple of extra heads because they just kill them without a second thought
Post by: BeTheChange on November 29, 2012, 07:40:22 AM
I know this isn't the usual place for such things but this came to me and seemed appropriate to post here while we await a response from TS. Bec gave him LOTS of homework right back...LOL. Anyway...much thanks to our "whisperers" along the way and to Souza for not giving up. I know it HAD to be tempting from time to time. So in honor of everyone...our determination and of course our brilliant minds...
We’ve peeked in every corner
Dug deep under each new rock
Wrestled with all the hints and whispers
Whether shadows or a clock
We’ve googled ‘til our minds were numb
And eyes seemed permanently crossed
We’ve kept a brave front to all who say
Our minds we surely had lost
We were promised a great adventure
And willingly accepted the ride
For the highest highs and lowest lows
And sometimes our patience was tried
But as I sit and write this little piece
My mind is pretty well certain
That all still here would never trade
One moment behind the curtain
As we near this rides conclusion
At least that’s what most believe
Seems we’re on the cusp of finding out
What The Man had up his sleeve
I pray everything’s as it needs to be
As we slowly draw back the veil
May our hearts be happy and smiles abound
As we finally, collectively exhale
At least we'll hopefully have an AH HAA moment or two and some deeper knowledge and better preparation for the finale. I have to say that I'm excited but apprehensive all at the same time. Oh well...I just want things to go however Michael wants them to and I want him to be happy at the outcome.
@L4M...I LOVED that! Thanks so much for sharing that with us :icon_razz:
God bless!
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: wishingstar on November 29, 2012, 08:31:47 AM
Still no TS? He did say "on or before Nov 29"...so, we're left with 'on' lolI know this isn't the usual place for such things but this came to me and seemed appropriate to post here while we await a response from TS. Bec gave him LOTS of homework right back...LOL. Anyway...much thanks to our "whisperers" along the way and to Souza for not giving up. I know it HAD to be tempting from time to time. So in honor of everyone...our determination and of course our brilliant minds...
We’ve peeked in every corner
Dug deep under each new rock
Wrestled with all the hints and whispers
Whether shadows or a clock
We’ve googled ‘til our minds were numb
And eyes seemed permanently crossed
We’ve kept a brave front to all who say
Our minds we surely had lost
We were promised a great adventure
And willingly accepted the ride
For the highest highs and lowest lows
And sometimes our patience was tried
But as I sit and write this little piece
My mind is pretty well certain
That all still here would never trade
One moment behind the curtain
As we near this rides conclusion
At least that’s what most believe
Seems we’re on the cusp of finding out
What The Man had up his sleeve
I pray everything’s as it needs to be
As we slowly draw back the veil
May our hearts be happy and smiles abound
As we finally, collectively exhale
At least we'll hopefully have an AH HAA moment or two and some deeper knowledge and better preparation for the finale. I have to say that I'm excited but apprehensive all at the same time. Oh well...I just want things to go however Michael wants them to and I want him to be happy at the outcome.
@L4M...I LOVED that! Thanks so much for sharing that with us :icon_razz:
God bless!
With L.O.V.E. always.
"on"......... :icon_lol:
You're so funny, BTC. Bring it on TS........we got this. :icon_razz:
@Love4Michael......wow, that is a great piece of poetry you wrote! Thank you so much for putting into words, so much of
what I feel. It's just perfect!!!
@bec....you really poured your heart into this, thank you. That list is amazing to read....as are all the thoughts and questions here.
Thank you for all your hard work.....much appreciated.
Blessings Always
Post by: Loveunited on November 29, 2012, 08:34:18 AM
Still no TS? He did say "on or before Nov 29"...so, we're left with 'on' lolI know this isn't the usual place for such things but this came to me and seemed appropriate to post here while we await a response from TS. Bec gave him LOTS of homework right back...LOL. Anyway...much thanks to our "whisperers" along the way and to Souza for not giving up. I know it HAD to be tempting from time to time. So in honor of everyone...our determination and of course our brilliant minds...
We’ve peeked in every corner
Dug deep under each new rock
Wrestled with all the hints and whispers
Whether shadows or a clock
We’ve googled ‘til our minds were numb
And eyes seemed permanently crossed
We’ve kept a brave front to all who say
Our minds we surely had lost
We were promised a great adventure
And willingly accepted the ride
For the highest highs and lowest lows
And sometimes our patience was tried
But as I sit and write this little piece
My mind is pretty well certain
That all still here would never trade
One moment behind the curtain
As we near this rides conclusion
At least that’s what most believe
Seems we’re on the cusp of finding out
What The Man had up his sleeve
I pray everything’s as it needs to be
As we slowly draw back the veil
May our hearts be happy and smiles abound
As we finally, collectively exhale
At least we'll hopefully have an AH HAA moment or two and some deeper knowledge and better preparation for the finale. I have to say that I'm excited but apprehensive all at the same time. Oh well...I just want things to go however Michael wants them to and I want him to be happy at the outcome.
@L4M...I LOVED that! Thanks so much for sharing that with us :icon_razz:
God bless!
With L.O.V.E. always.
+1
I especially love:
I pray everything’s as it needs to be
As we slowly draw back the veil
May our hearts be happy and smiles abound
As we finally, collectively exhale
Post by: RK on November 29, 2012, 09:59:14 AM
Bec, good pic choice!
Poor mouse... MJ, the master story-teller! :affraid:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430048.html#msg430048
i always feel so sad for those mouses who have no chance of survive in anyway, i always find it so cruel... :(
But maybe i'm to sensitive about these things,for excample: i have rescued ants from drowning in the water, my stephdad always laughed at me for that.
I'm hearing ya...Me too. I hate those kinds of images. I hate the whole carnivorous food chain. Just breaks my heart. I am the weirdo who rescues mice from my cat and nurse them back to health to release them into the bushland down the road. However, I must be a hypocrite because I let my dogs and cat eat chicken meat. But not my pet chickens.
I don't picture our Bec like a mouse though...more like a mongoose.
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 29, 2012, 10:30:36 AM
Post by: bec on November 29, 2012, 10:46:04 AM
Bec, good pic choice!
Poor mouse... MJ, the master story-teller! :affraid:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430048.html#msg430048
i always feel so sad for those mouses who have no chance of survive in anyway, i always find it so cruel... :(
But maybe i'm to sensitive about these things,for excample: i have rescued ants from drowning in the water, my stephdad always laughed at me for that.
I'm hearing ya...Me too. I hate those kinds of images. I hate the whole carnivorous food chain. Just breaks my heart. I am the weirdo who rescues mice from my cat and nurse them back to health to release them into the bushland down the road. However, I must be a hypocrite because I let my dogs and cat eat chicken meat. But not my pet chickens.
I don't picture our Bec like a mouse though...more like a mongoose.
Don't be so quick to write off our sweet little mouse friend so easily.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_kw8MZmqkl1U/TZqfOFs48AI/AAAAAAAAHIo/r8ZFC169zIc/Tiny%20Mouse%20Kills%20Deadly%20Snake1%5B2%5D.jpg)
:animal0017:
Post by: Love4Michael on November 29, 2012, 12:03:01 PM
Tick Tock TS...your public is waiting :LolLolLolLol:
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 29, 2012, 12:22:20 PM
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 29, 2012, 12:32:43 PM
:icon_e_surprised: surprising picture Bec, poor snake :errrr: :icon_lol:
I think I'm gonna practice some yoga to relax
(http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2012/2/22/277fde4e-f61c-4fbb-946b-fbc3665ff205.jpg)
LOVE always
Post by: SimPattyK on November 29, 2012, 12:43:12 PM
Still no TS? He did say "on or before Nov 29"...so, we're left with 'on' lolIn less than 4 hours it's gonna be November 30th, in Romania :icon_geek:
I think I'm not gonna go to sleep tonight... I'll wait for TS to post ! :icon_albino: :icon_e_biggrin:
Post by: wishingstar on November 29, 2012, 01:02:37 PM
bec.....your snake pics are a perfect metaphor really.......
the moment I saw the first one, I saw Michael as the poor innocent mouse, about to be eaten by the ever present nasty
world. When all of a sudden, that sweet little mouse is shown to be able and conquer his foes........victory is his!
BAM.......dang snake! I hope the tabloids are reading this :icon_lol: Take a number boys....you're about to get bit!
Hissssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssstory
LOVE
Post by: bec on November 29, 2012, 01:08:24 PM
I'm about to embark to the land of no internet access for the next 9 hours.
Gahhhh :screaming-7365:
The suspense is killing me softly.
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 29, 2012, 01:39:08 PM
It seems that nervous energy helps create beauty. Love your poem Love4Michael.
:icon_e_surprised: surprising picture Bec, poor snake :errrr: :icon_lol:
I think I'm gonna practice some yoga to relax
(http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2012/2/22/277fde4e-f61c-4fbb-946b-fbc3665ff205.jpg)
LOVE always
I think I will join you!!
(http://kellynguyen67.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/dog-meditation.jpg)
:LolLolLolLol:... LOVE to you EVER!!! :bearhug:
@LOVE4Michael....God Bless you for that wonderful poem!! :bearhug: LOVE you!!!
My LOVE to you all!! :bearhug:
Post by: emulik on November 29, 2012, 01:44:55 PM
(http://i50.tinypic.com/346xs3k.jpg) :icon_lol:
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 29, 2012, 02:24:53 PM
Post by: MJonmind on November 29, 2012, 02:42:26 PM
I see that everyone is in the waiting mode (me too, of course). But did TS write exact year of 11/29? :icon_lol:That's exactly what I was thinking... :over-react-smiley: Who'll still be here next year? :icon_lol:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/346xs3k.jpg) :icon_lol:
About the unexpected mouse pic, yes it's perfect because MJ is turning the tables. "We're taking over." The hunted has become the hunter. The world just doesn't know it--yet!
Hi guys. I’m here signed in and patiently waiting for TS to start today's classroom discussion. The answers are on the board, and so are the questions ;D:compute: :computer-losy-smiley: :compute: :computer-losy-smiley: :compute: :computer-losy-smiley: :compute: :computer-losy-smiley: And you could hear a pin drop. We have virtual notebooks and pens in hand. When will we hear those virtual heart-racing footsteps!
Professor/Dr. TS!
Post by: G0THTH1NG on November 29, 2012, 03:02:08 PM
Seems like you're busy a lot!!!
(http://feinx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/theworkingmanpose.jpg)
GO TS GO!!
Post by: Loveunited on November 29, 2012, 03:05:26 PM
Damn.
I'm about to embark to the land of no internet access for the next 9 hours.
Gahhhh :screaming-7365:
The suspense is killing me softly.
Yep darn work...confined to lunch 1/2 hr.......
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on November 29, 2012, 03:11:24 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on November 29, 2012, 03:15:21 PM
@Wishy: I LOVE you toooooooooo :bearhug: :bearhug:
Post by: Andrea on November 29, 2012, 03:53:43 PM
It's 11/29 and TMZ wrote an article (http://www.tmz.com/2012/11/28/lindsay-lohan-arrested-new-york-city-assault-nightclub/) on Lindsay Lohan today.... with this pic.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2012/11/29/1130-lindsay-victim-04-splash-3.jpg)
Interesting caption, lol.
Post by: Sarahli on November 29, 2012, 04:30:27 PM
It's 11/29 and TMZ wrote an article (http://www.tmz.com/2012/11/28/lindsay-lohan-arrested-new-york-city-assault-nightclub/) on Lindsay Lohan today.... with this pic.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2012/11/29/1130-lindsay-victim-04-splash-3.jpg)
Interesting caption, lol.
Interesting indeed. :suspect: And not that it isn't a "coincidence" lol, but I noticed that TMZ posting time is 2:30 am and the next post from TS_comments will be the 230th one!
That is if TS ever posts. :icon_lol:
Post by: mjselfsweet on November 29, 2012, 04:44:31 PM
Damn.
I'm about to embark to the land of no internet access for the next 9 hours.
Gahhhh :screaming-7365:
The suspense is killing me softly.
:Pulling_hair: oh no Bec!!! where u live??? you can use my wireless : ) :icon_mrgreen: :bearhug:
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 29, 2012, 04:57:16 PM
Post by: Jos on November 29, 2012, 05:13:54 PM
I hope Joe is okay! :bearhug:
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2012, 05:14:49 PM
Damn.
I'm about to embark to the land of no internet access for the next 9 hours.
Gahhhh :screaming-7365:
The suspense is killing me softly.
Lol, its only 9 hours :icon_lol:
P.s Shock horror! You used a smiley :affraid:
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2012, 05:26:43 PM
Maybe he is waiting for the right time to post...like 11:29 ? :icon_cool:
Post by: TS_comments on November 29, 2012, 05:57:21 PM
Still no TS?
Maybe he is waiting for the right time to post...like 11:29 ? :icon_cool:
Remember, the hoax is based on CA time; so I still have about eight hours left of 11-29-12.
Meanwhile: :icon_bounce: :icon_rolleyes: :compute: :computer-losy-smiley: :Pulling_hair: :screaming-7365: :LolLolLolLol:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2012, 05:59:53 PM
Still no TS?
Maybe he is waiting for the right time to post...like 11:29 ? :icon_cool:
Remember, the hoax is based on CA time; so I still have about eight hours left of 11-29-12.
Meanwhile: :icon_bounce: :icon_rolleyes: :compute: :computer-losy-smiley: :Pulling_hair: :screaming-7365: :LolLolLolLol:
Ohhh TS is in a little bit of a fizzle...need some help buddy?
Post by: Front on November 29, 2012, 06:11:18 PM
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2012, 06:13:27 PM
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
Well look who decided to grace us with his presence...you got a snippet for us or are you just passing through?
Post by: MaryK on November 29, 2012, 06:14:12 PM
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
lol....mischievous YOU :icon_lol:
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2012, 06:14:37 PM
Don't choke on ur popcorn.
Love you! I'll also take this as confirmation that Mr Joe Jackson is F.I.N.E
> see new joe jackson thread
Love your work! Meanwhile, hows about a nickname?
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2012, 06:16:07 PM
Still no TS?
Maybe he is waiting for the right time to post...like 11:29 ? :icon_cool:
Remember, the hoax is based on CA time; so I still have about eight hours left of 11-29-12.
Meanwhile: :icon_bounce: :icon_rolleyes: :compute: :computer-losy-smiley: :Pulling_hair: :screaming-7365: :LolLolLolLol:
I_deed....that is what I thought too...so you still have a few more hours remaining to compile your responses...I can't wait to read them! :icon_geek: :icon_e_wink:
Ohhh......hello Mr Fro_t ! Nice of you to pop into this thread......got any good jokes?
:bearhug:
Post by: MJonmind on November 29, 2012, 06:16:17 PM
Hey TS... Is that you for real???
Seems like you're busy a lot!!!
(http://feinx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/theworkingmanpose.jpg)
GO TS GO!!
now Thats what i call a very clean nice white undie, lol
Front and TS -- are you ready and fully dressed? :icon_lol: We're fully ready!! :penguin:
Post by: SimPattyK on November 29, 2012, 06:16:44 PM
Need a refreshing juice? :)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/orange.jpg)
It's 2:16 a.m. here in Romania, but I have no sleep and I think I'm gonna steal some popcorn from Fro_t and keep watching until TS posts!! :icon_geek: :icon_lol: :Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2012, 06:17:34 PM
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/Joksutin/Michael%20Jackson/2qkjwpt.gif)
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2012, 06:21:23 PM
Hey TS... Is that you for real???
Seems like you're busy a lot!!!
(http://feinx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/theworkingmanpose.jpg)
GO TS GO!!
There are some images you see, that once you see them, you just can't unsee ..... this is one of them :LolLolLolLol:
Post by: Jos on November 29, 2012, 06:23:48 PM
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/Joksutin/Michael%20Jackson/2i8ajh4.gif)
:multiplespotting: :LolLolLolLol:
Post by: ashprak247 on November 29, 2012, 06:33:31 PM
Next t the main story there is a pic of Conrad Murray and says the below:
Today in TMZ history
November 29 2011
Dr. Conrad Murray
Sentenced to the maximum
http://www.tmz.com/
Post by: SimPattyK on November 29, 2012, 06:41:47 PM
Ooooooh what's this is see on the homepage of tmz?:)
Next t the main story there is a pic of Conrad Murray and says the below:
Today in TMZ history
November 29 2011
Dr. Conrad Murray
Sentenced to the maximum
http://www.tmz.com/
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/tmzmurray.jpg)
Post by: paula-c on November 29, 2012, 06:46:23 PM
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
I suppose that means that all is well :icon_razz:
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 29, 2012, 06:47:44 PM
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
Hi Front, is this you the one eating popcorns? :icon_lol:
I knew it was just about time to see you posting on TS_comments thread :icon_mrgreen:
You see what you have done I can't go to sleep now I am so excited, dreaming with Michael's BAM and be able to party, sing, dance and whatever with him, lol :icon_redface:
Post by: Andrea on November 29, 2012, 06:47:59 PM
Post by: paula-c on November 29, 2012, 06:48:50 PM
Hey TS... Is that you for real???
Seems like you're busy a lot!!!
(http://feinx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/theworkingmanpose.jpg)
GO TS GO!!
There are some images you see, that once you see them, you just can't unsee ..... this is one of them :LolLolLolLol:
:icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Post by: marumjj on November 29, 2012, 06:51:16 PM
Still no TS?
Maybe he is waiting for the right time to post...like 11:29 ? :icon_cool:
Remember, the hoax is based on CA time; so I still have about eight hours left of 11-29-12.
Meanwhile: :icon_bounce: :icon_rolleyes: :compute: :computer-losy-smiley: :Pulling_hair: :screaming-7365: :LolLolLolLol:
:abouttime: ok, maybe a little
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/7783/peanutbuttersnickersbro.jpg)
boys, there for all!!
Post by: BeTheChange on November 29, 2012, 06:56:13 PM
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
That's what I've looked like for the last day and a half...well, really on and off for the last 3+ years but who's counting lol. My a$$ can't take much more :icon_geek:
Nice to see you both, TS and Front. It's like a multiple personality convention tonite :icon_lol:
@TS...we know you already have your reply typed out...what ya waiting for???
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 29, 2012, 06:58:19 PM
:computer-losy-smiley:
OMG the suspense!! :woohoo2:
Post by: marumjj on November 29, 2012, 06:58:49 PM
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
Front Hello! I like that you're here too. I see that you enjoy your popcorn, that's a good sign, thanks :woohoo2:
Post by: Jos on November 29, 2012, 07:01:22 PM
Still no TS?
Maybe he is waiting for the right time to post...like 11:29 ? :icon_cool:
Remember, the hoax is based on CA time; so I still have about eight hours left of 11-29-12.
Meanwhile: :icon_bounce: :icon_rolleyes: :compute: :computer-losy-smiley: :Pulling_hair: :screaming-7365: :LolLolLolLol:
This is gonna be a loooooooong night then..... :(
It is 2.00am now in Holland... grrrr
Post by: marumjj on November 29, 2012, 07:12:09 PM
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9264/keepcalmandticktockitsa.png)
:bearhug:
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 29, 2012, 07:18:10 PM
Love You :compute:
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 29, 2012, 07:19:06 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on November 29, 2012, 07:24:48 PM
The anticipation is maddening! :over-react-smiley:Imagine how we're gonna boil in our own juices the night of 31st Dec to 1st Jan 2013, unless he BAMs earlier in December!! :bowdown: :affraid:
I think I'm gonna count every single second that day/night!! :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
This is so awesome. I literally said 'Ho-ly sh*t' and leaned forward when I saw your post, Front.:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Nice to see you both, TS and Front. It's like a multiple personality convention tonite :icon_lol::icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Post by: mindseye on November 29, 2012, 08:15:29 PM
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
:LolLolLolLol:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/Joksutin/Michael%20Jackson/2i8ajh4.gif)
:thjajaja121:
:michael_jackson-1135:
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 29, 2012, 08:32:07 PM
Post by: bugsy on November 29, 2012, 08:36:14 PM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 29, 2012, 09:48:38 PM
(http://s17.postimage.org/jr1gxbk8b/tumblr_maqgld1f_E81qdnlzlo2_r1_250.gif) (http://postimage.org/image/jr1gxbk8b/)
(http://s17.postimage.org/guefx1eej/tumblr_lwjarrduy11qcvsbo.gif) (http://postimage.org/)
Post by: Loveunited on November 29, 2012, 09:50:33 PM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 29, 2012, 09:58:02 PM
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
predating this more recent post:Well, after about a year I’m “back”—no, that does NOT have a double meaning, lol.
It’s been quiet for quite a long timE; but things should start rumbling again …
TS: “However, we will finish no later than November 29—even if I have to do 7b and 7c without any help (7a is nearly complete already).”
I said we would finish level 7 by November 29, but did I say what year?
:TongueOutSmiley:
If we are going to be top-notch investigators, we have to learn not to assUME anything!
Anyway, back to business, timE to finish up Level 7.
:compute:
TS says the levels will be done by the end of 2012. I think we can safely determine that the 11/29 deadline is this year.
I'm counting on these two posts...
Post by: bec on November 29, 2012, 10:05:04 PM
This is so awesome. I literally said 'Ho-ly sh*t' and leaned forward when I saw your post, Front.
I choked on my own spit so hard the dogs came running. You know it's that smart ass look on his face in that gif that gets me every time. Grr!
But yay I didn't miss anything. Today was like being an 8 year old and having to go to school on Christmas Eve.
I knew you'd push it to the wire, TS(_comments). You're so predictable.
(haha, burn)
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 29, 2012, 10:12:17 PM
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2012, 10:15:58 PM
Very cool that Front posted here.....loving reading everyone's reactions :icon_e_biggrin:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2012, 10:18:29 PM
I was in line at the grocery store on my phone scrolling through the forum and I saw front posted in the TIAI thread and I was like "whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat oh my gosh!" smiling like an idiot and people looked at me like I was crazy. :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
HAHAHA...you should have just been like 'Nothing to see here folks, nothing you can't see in a circus'...lol
3 hrs and 43 min left...TS_comments is probably going to post at the last possible moment, which is so predictable. Imagine BAM day, I think I'll be pulling my hair out.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 29, 2012, 10:20:41 PM
I was in line at the grocery store on my phone scrolling through the forum and I saw front posted in the TIAI thread and I was like "whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat oh my gosh!" smiling like an idiot and people looked at me like I was crazy. :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
HAHAHA...you should have just been like 'Nothing to see here folks, nothing you can't see in a circus'...lol
3 hrs and 43 min left...TS_comments is probably going to post at the last possible moment, which is so predictable. Imagine BAM day, I think I'll be pulling my hair out.
is he gonna post at 11:59? ... 8)
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 29, 2012, 10:23:00 PM
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 29, 2012, 10:24:34 PM
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 29, 2012, 10:27:56 PM
I was in line at the grocery store on my phone scrolling through the forum and I saw front posted in the TIAI thread and I was like "whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat oh my gosh!" smiling like an idiot and people looked at me like I was crazy. :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
HAHAHA...you should have just been like 'Nothing to see here folks, nothing you can't see in a circus'...lol
3 hrs and 43 min left...TS_comments is probably going to post at the last possible moment, which is so predictable. Imagine BAM day, I think I'll be pulling my hair out.
is he gonna post at 11:59? ... 8)
Who knows, he just likes to see us sweat doesn't he? LOL
But nar that's the time until he has left to post (L.A time)
Arrhhh the wait is killing me, I wonder what he'll come up with...or maybe TS_comments went to the hospital, I mean maybe he went to the airport for a quick getaway, he probably knows if he doesn't post he's replies within the time, we'll come get him with our pitchforks (so medieval) and such...we know where you live TS
Post by: Adi on November 29, 2012, 10:31:23 PM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 29, 2012, 10:56:10 PM
Yeah it's pretty funny.
Nope nothing happened over night. But you know what from now til bam I'm too scared to sleep. I want to see it live. Not wake up and miss it. I'm going camping for a few days mid dec. So scared it will happen then when I'm 'out bush'
I'll be like :screaming-7365:
Post by: ellyd on November 29, 2012, 11:06:43 PM
And we are strongly hinted to enjoy the show LOL.
Hang in there. I expect the amusement factor to burst through the ceiling.
Post by: MJonmind on November 29, 2012, 11:10:40 PM
LOL. Ahh... getting late... eyes getting.. sleepy... i must stay awake... zZZzZzZzzZ :icon_redface:I know eh! Remember Front's wake-up love message? Maybe that'll help. It still cracks me up.
It's like a mini-bam! :icon_pale: :icon_lol:
on Oct 15,11
Quote
Front would like to share this amazing, sweet & romantic song with lyrics with you all. Enjoy!
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/sayit
Post by: Loveunited on November 29, 2012, 11:27:00 PM
I know eh! Remember Front's wake-up love message? Maybe that'll help. It still cracks me up.
It's like a mini-bam! :icon_pale: :icon_lol:
on Oct 15,11
Quote
Front would like to share this amazing, sweet & romantic song with lyrics with you all. Enjoy![/quote]
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/sayit
DAMN, fell for it AGAIN! :-[ :icon_pale:
Post by: bugsy on November 30, 2012, 12:13:16 AM
I know eh! Remember Front's wake-up love message? Maybe that'll help. It still cracks me up.
It's like a mini-bam! :icon_pale: :icon_lol:
on Oct 15,11QuoteFront would like to share this amazing, sweet & romantic song with lyrics with you all. Enjoy!
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/sayit
DAMN, fell for it AGAIN! :-[ :icon_pale:
i'm glad i missed that the first time, and i wish i missed it this time too lol! I was like
(http://www.giveawayscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/tumblr_m3tsckAvTm1rno0d4.gif)
Post by: Adi on November 30, 2012, 12:28:53 AM
yep - I'm bored :icon_lol:
Post by: curls on November 30, 2012, 12:34:32 AM
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 12:37:48 AM
Post by: MJonmind on November 30, 2012, 12:47:10 AM
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 30, 2012, 12:48:03 AM
Just got up early like a kid on Christmas Day! Great to see Front here! TS sure knows how to create drama and suspense!Just like someone else we know :icon_e_wink:
Post by: curls on November 30, 2012, 01:05:58 AM
Just got up early like a kid on Christmas Day! Great to see Front here! TS sure knows how to create drama and suspense!Just like someone else we know :icon_e_wink:
Yup! :icon_e_wink:
Post by: mjselfsweet on November 30, 2012, 01:18:08 AM
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 30, 2012, 01:21:13 AM
Post by: TS_comments on November 30, 2012, 01:30:26 AM
I'm expecting a post at 11:30....just like the clock that was posted so long ago. "It's close to midnight...."
:th_bravo:
... I knew you'd push it to the wire, TS(_comments). You're so predictable.
:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
@MJ: nice to see you post in this thread!
:icon_e_surprised: :icon_e_surprised:
:penguin:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 30, 2012, 01:31:16 AM
I'm expecting a post at 11:30....just like the clock that was posted so long ago. "It's close to midnight...."
:th_bravo:
... I knew you'd push it to the wire, TS(_comments). You're so predictable.
:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
@MJ: nice to see you post in this thread!
:icon_e_surprised: :icon_e_surprised:
:penguin:
Who's MJ, front?
C'mon TS you're killing us here.
Post by: Adi on November 30, 2012, 01:32:01 AM
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@MJ: nice to see you post in this thread!
:thjajaja121: schweeeeet
I think TS is gonna keep us hangin' for a little while longer...maybe closer to midnight :icon_cool: .....that's OK - it's Friday afternoon here and I've just poured myself a nice glass of chilled white 'cause the suspense is killing me! lol
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 30, 2012, 01:33:51 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 30, 2012, 01:36:20 AM
Love you TS!
Post by: mjselfsweet on November 30, 2012, 01:37:08 AM
@MJ: nice to see you post in this thread!
:icon_e_surprised: :icon_e_surprised:
:penguin:
[/quote]
wow!! makes me grin ear to ear,, and warm all over!!!!! :icon_razz:
Post by: curls on November 30, 2012, 01:38:07 AM
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 30, 2012, 01:40:17 AM
@uyi boom! Front validation right there. :icon_razz:
Love you TS!
Isn't that just a joke though, I mean what does that make TS then?
And is TS throwing out random posts without posting his theory? Or is that coming at 11:59pm I suspect?
Post by: scorpionchik on November 30, 2012, 01:41:31 AM
Post by: Loveunited on November 30, 2012, 01:42:09 AM
uh, oh, talking to yourself again, sometimes a strange sign.......
Post by: bec on November 30, 2012, 01:43:06 AM
Oh right he meant the popcorn gif right.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 30, 2012, 01:43:59 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 30, 2012, 01:44:16 AM
(http://chicagonannyagency.com/wp-content/uploads/images/GirlScreaming.jpg)
Post by: mjselfsweet on November 30, 2012, 01:44:39 AM
wait, did...
Oh right he meant the popcorn gif right.
:thjajaja121:
Post by: Adi on November 30, 2012, 01:46:23 AM
@uyi boom! Front validation right there. :icon_razz:
Love you TS!
Isn't that just a joke though, I mean what does that make TS then?
And is TS throwing out random posts without posting his theory? Or is that coming at 11:59pm I suspect?
Perhaps
Elvis?
or
Lisa?...which would be awkward because I have always referred to TS as a he/him...so my apologies if this is the case......
ok I think I am losing the plot now.....either that or this wine has gone straight to my head lol
:LolLolLolLol: at that pic Aussie! That is how I feel.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on November 30, 2012, 01:48:25 AM
Ur very cheeky MR TS
And nope I didn't call you Mr ivegotananswerforeverything yesterday...
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-n9Q-WheHAJY/T5cLMy-NU3I/AAAAAAAAArY/eT6rs92ObpA/s1600/Pinocchio_nose_grows-thumb-350x259-52448.jpg)
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 01:51:28 AM
Post by: TS_comments on November 30, 2012, 01:52:01 AM
bec: “For the record, I don't have a problem with assisted suicide at all. If it ever came up on a ballot in my state I would vote for it. That is not my problem with this theory.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=21319.msg429985#msg429985 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=21319.msg429985#msg429985)}
bec: “This [alleged legal problems] is what makes Point #1 [DWD] against dead body point #1, but it's also the hardest thing to explain, for me, somehow. I always end up with a novel.” {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430279.html#msg430279 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430279.html#msg430279)}
First, I’m going to answer this legal aspect, in a separate post, because it is somewhat lengthy; then I will reply to the rest. The strongest argument so far against the DWD theory, is the legalities; aside from that, many were ready to accept DWD—and a few still accepted DWD, in spite of the legalities.
I am glad that people are not accepting what I say, merely because I say it; I have never complained about anyone questioning what I say. On the other hand, though, when challenged: I have often replied with undebunkable evidence that what I said is true (such as the timing of the 911 call, etc).
It is unlikely that MJ and/or the FBI would plan to break the law intentionally; however, as I’ve already said, a good investigator should keep feelings out of the formula, as far as possible, and examine the evidence. Likewise, a good investigator should not entirely dismiss the possibility that something illegal was done, merely because you think that a certain person or agency would not break the law; instead, you should examine the evidence of what was done, and whether or not the evidence points to a legal or illegal situation.
In this case, the evidence points to the fact that a DWD patient in CA would not be illegal, at least not in an FBI sting. And I will present three categories of evidence to support this conclusion: California Law, Answers From a DWD Specialist, and State Law Versus Federal Law.
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California Law
California law says: “Every person who deliberately aids, or advises, or encourages another to commit suicide, is guilty of a felony.” {http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/401.html (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/401.html)}. It is true that laws are subject to interpretation—which is why we have attorneys, and courts, and judges, and juries, etc.
Say for example a teenager was depressed, because her boyfriend just broke up with her. Then a man came along, handed her a gun, and said: “Well, just shoot yourself, and get it all over with.” Even then, the girl was hesitant; so he continued: “If I was in your shoes, that’s what I would do; so go ahead, don’t be afraid, just pull the trigger!” In this case, surely the man would be guilty of a “felony” (even in this case, though, it doesn’t say “murder”). He provided the “aid” for suicide (gun), he “advised” in favor of suicide (shoot yourself), and he even “encouraged” suicide (I would do it, don’t be afraid, etc).
Now notice that the CA law does not say: “Every person who ALLOWS suicide is guilty of a felony.” For example, let’s say that the girl already had a gun in her hand, and when the man found her she was already planning to pull the trigger. But the man convinced her to get into his car, go to his house, and talk with his wife; after that, if she still wanted to kill herself, they would not make any efforts to stop her (they would ALLOW it). In this case: the man and his wife did not “aid” suicide (they did not provide the gun), they did not “advise” suicide (she was already planning to commit suicide), and they did not “encourage” suicide (at no time did they say anything in favor of her pulling the trigger).
And there is yet one more HUGE difference between both of the above examples, and a DWD patient. With the DWD patient, unlike the teenage girl, the person is terminally ill and already on the brink of death. Also, the phrase “assisted suicide” usually refers to prescribing and/or supplying the end of life medication (this would be the “aid” part, in the CA law).
So FBI agents bringing a DWD patient to CA would not be giving suicide “aid” (they did not prescribe or supply the medication); and they would not be giving suicide “advice” (the patient had already counseled on the matter with qualified personnel in WA, and had already decided in favor of DWD). But if they tell the DWD patient that they need him to take his medication, at a certain time, in order to help an FBI sting and/or an MJ hoax—that would “encourage” suicide, right?
Not so fast. Read again my previous DWD post, and pay attention to what I said and what I did not say: “No doubt many would consider it an honor and privilege to be allowed in MJ’s home for their final hours …” Is there anything here about telling the DWD patient that they needed him dead, at a certain time, for a sting and/or a hoax? If the patient was already planning to take the medication, days or weeks earlier—and the FBI convinced him to wait until arriving at Carolwood—it is likely that he would voluntarily choose to take his medication, shortly after arriving (and the exact time of death is unknown, remember?). In this case, they would not be encouraging suicide; if anything, they would be encouraging him to delay suicide (and therefore they helped him to extend his life).
Some have noticed that my wording is at times merely suggestions, and possibilities. In some cases, I am suggesting different options for others to research. In some cases, I am not stating something with any certainty, because there is not much if any strong enough evidence to prove things one way or another (such as one or two DWD patients in CA). However, in some case, it’s true that I actually do not know for sure what happened; I said very early, that I don’t know everything about the hoax. And in this case, I do not know exactly what the FBI agents told the DWD patient—nor does MJ himself know, for that matter. And most likely, the FBI is not going to disclose those kind of details to anyone.
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Answers From a DWD Specialist
The following answers come from a specialist in the field of DWD situations. The answers here are in harmony with the conclusions in the above section (California Law).
Situation: What if I have a relative in Washington (WA), who goes through all the legal DWD procedures there, and obtains end of life medication from a qualified WA doctor, etc. But then before taking the medication, he comes to visit family living in California (CA). While in CA, his case gets worse and he does not want to travel back to WA before taking his end of life medication.
Question #1: Is he in violation of WA law, merely because he is not located in WA State when ingesting the medication?
Answer #1: The answer is once meds are obtained it does not matter where they are taken.
Question #2: And more importantly, would the relatives in CA be required by law to physically stop him, and/or call 911, merely because there are no DWD laws in CA? And if the relatives did not try to stop him or call the cops, would they be guilty of a crime?
Answer #2: One is not required to stop or call authorities, but family or friends should be on the “same page” as the person taking the meds. …
See also the following e-mail, from the Washington State Department of Health. {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430263.html#msg430263 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430263.html#msg430263)}
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State Law Versus Federal Law
In spite of the previous information, no doubt some would argue that merely allowing DWD in CA is a “gray area”, at best. And it’s possible that someone who allowed DWD in CA could be charged with a crime, and if charged there is also a possibility that the court would find them guilty.
However, last but not least: in some cases, federal agents are not subject to state laws. A most striking and terrible abuse of this fact can be found in the case of FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi—who shot and killed an unarmed female, Vicki Weaver. “FBI HRT sniper Lon Horiuchi was indicted for manslaughter in 1997 by the Boundary County, Idaho, prosecutor just before the statute of limitations for the crime of manslaughter expired, but the trial was removed to federal court and quickly dismissed on grounds of sovereign immunity.” {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge)}
Certainly FBI agents would be required to obey state laws, whenever they are off duty; and it is very likely that any court would also find them subject to state laws, if they were merely helping out with something artistic (like a movie). However, if they were performing a serious sting operation for real criminal investigation, then CA courts would have little if any power to enforce CA state law on them. Therefore, understanding Level 7 makes it very clear that there is real criminal sting, and not merely the FBI helping MJ to produce an artistic sting. Does anyone remember me saying something like this before?
Post by: hopi on November 30, 2012, 01:52:22 AM
Yeeeessss!! Hysteria is setting in on this end of the screen!! Calm down girl, calm down!
hihihi ...yessssss H Y S T E R I A .....LOL :screaming-7365: :Pulling_hair: :thjajaja121: :bearhug:
...sitting over here --> grinning from ear to ear :) :icon_lol:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 30, 2012, 01:52:39 AM
Post by: mjselfsweet on November 30, 2012, 01:52:59 AM
isn't it 11:50 in california? anyone to confirm it?
yes it is
Post by: bec on November 30, 2012, 01:53:12 AM
He didn't say eat in this thread he said post.
So alright then. I agree, it's nice to see MJ post in this thread. What do you think of my lists, MJ?
Post by: TS_comments on November 30, 2012, 01:53:48 AM
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430204.html#msg430204 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430204.html#msg430204)}
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#1. The chances of someone other then MJ that looks enough like MJ to fool everyone ( double) dying of natural means (or Propofol) in accordance with the numerology, perfectly on time, who also happened to be residing at Carrolwood that day is a statistical impossibility.
#1. Agree.
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#2. Assisted suicide or DWD is against the law in California. California penal code section 401: Every person who deliberately aids, or advises, or encourages a person to commit suicide, is guilty of a felony. MJ, Murray, and AEG would all be guilty in accordance with the wording of the law.
#2. Disagree (see my previous post, on DWD legalities).
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#3. A real body would need to get into Carrolwood somehow and at some point. On 6/25/09, the staff was sent out of the house before the stretcher came down indicating that they were not in on, so therefore would need to be shielded from the body’s arrival as well.
#3. Agree. And actually, this is a point in favor of DWD (see #8 in my next post, 12 evidences for DWD).
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#4. A real body would need to be stored until go time. Dead bodies are messy n ought not be stored in private residences and few private residences would be set up to properly house a corpse. This is a public health risk that would necessitate specific accommodations. This is also a zoning violation (at best), and potentially a small string of misdemeanors and minor felonies resulting from abuse of a corpse, tampering with a corpse, others.
#4. With a DWD patient, you don’t need to store a corpse until go time (see also answer to #15, below).
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#5. If a real body were frozen to facilitate storage, it would be at the wrong temperature to fool emergency workers, and by the time the core was thawed, the outer tissues would be mush. Additionally, once-frozen-now-thawed tissue is distinctive and shows up clearly upon autopsy.
#5. Again, this is not a problem with a DWD patient.
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#6. A fresh dead corpse would be subject to rigor mortis within minutes and lasting for hours, making entubulation of the airway/locating and tapping a vein impossible.
#6. Rigor mortis could also occur if the real MJ died that day—so whether a DWD patient, or the real MJ, this poses no problem even if none of the paramedics were in on the hoax.
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#7. It was reported that the body was ID’ed from MJ’s driver’s license at the hospital. Neither a DWD patient nor a random corpse could be ID’ed as MJ from a pic of MJ.
#7. Agree. However, this same problem exists with either a dummy or live MJ. Somebody in the hoax is the only solution, then, for body identification.
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#8. UCLA spokesperson did not make a statement in the death of MJ, counter to what is typical with a high profile death at a hospital. Instead, Jermaine Jackson made the statement. UCLA specifically dodged making any kind of statement regarding MJ at all, rather printing the family’s prewritten words instead.
#8. There were two different deaths: the DWD patient (real death), and real MJ (fake death). The DWD patient was not a celebrity, so his real death would not be a “high profile” death—and therefore no need for UCLA to make any public statement about it. The real MJ would be “high profile”; but UCLA did not announce it, because it was not a real death.
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#9. No doctor came forward initially to sign the death certificate. If there were a real body entering UCLA that day, there should be no problem getting a DC for it signed.
#9. This is about the same as the last one. Two deaths means two death certificates: one real DC (which we never saw), and one fake DC (not signed by the doctors in the hoax, because it was not a real death).
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#10. The body wouldn’t look like MJ and ambulance/gurney/autopsy pics clearly depict MJ, and not an apparent hospice patient as was testified by paramedics.
#10. Agree. Yet your own statement here admits that there was an actual discrepancy between the pictures, and the testimonies—yet nobody even blinked their eyes, except for us “crazy” people in hoaxland who bother to notice things that the “sane” world ignores. :icon_lol:
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#11. Makes the entire story, start to finish, a lie. MJ was not attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ didn’t go to UCLA, MJ didn’t get transported via helicopter, MJ did not go to the coroner’s office.
#11. As already discussed in previous levels, a sting incorporates deceptive elements (along with factors to avoid entrapment). Furthermore, the dummy theory would also have deceptive elements, as well as the live MJ theory. However, the DWD patient provides the least deception, and the most realism and honesty—at least for the paramedics and doctors who testified. Some of those in on it, even knowing that it was a sting, may have been reluctant or even refused to testify lies at the trial. Providing a real patient, going through all the real steps in the process, and even giving the real name of Michael JOSEPH Jackson—these things would allow honest testimonies, with a straight face. See the following article on name changes, notice especially CA law. {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_change (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_change)}
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#12. Both paramedics that testified attested that the patient looked like MJ. A DWD patient or random corpse are not going to resemble MJ enough for both paramedics to testify that they recognized him.
#12. Notice that Senneff, who most of us agree is in the hoax, did not say that he “recognized” the patient as being “familiar” (the real Michael JOE Jackson). However, he did admit that “at some point” he "learned" that the patient was “Michael Jackson” (in other words, Michael JOSEPH Jackson). Quite the opposite, Blount testified that he “recognized” the patient “immediately” when he “entered the room”—which would be almost impossible, considering all the appearance confusing factors with both the real MJ, and with the patient on the bed (I have already documented all these things in previous posts, and won’t repeat them here). So if Blount is in the hoax, then he gave a scripted line. Or if Blount is not in the hoax, then he just made an assumption about the patient being MJ—considering the location, and general appearance of the patient. Also, if we accept Sharon’s testimony as accurate, then later Blount had concluded (after working closely with the patient for a while) that the patient did not look like MJ after all. Again, if Blount is in, then Blount was following script, and there is no problem with the DWD patient not looking like MJ; and if Blount is not in, then the testimony of Sharon fits perfectly with a DWD patient.
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#13. No IV drip was witnessed suspended above the patient in the stretcher gif and if a real person was being attended in a medical emergency, and was reportedly already ported with an IV when paramedics arrived, after 42 minutes of attendance during which they are treating him as not dead and administering IV injections, it is extremely unlikely that the patient would not be started on fluids within that amount of time.
#13. If all paramedics were in, this also poses no problem. If some were not in, the lack of IV drip could be explained that the patient was already dead quite a while before the paramedics arrived, and they were taking the patient to the hospital because a higher authority required it.
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#14. The official story is that Dr. Cooper was able to rouse some heart activity in the patient at UCLA for several minutes. This would be impossible if she were working on a stored corpse, and nearing impossible on a DWD patient who had consumed suicide medication 1 hour (or more) prior.
#14. Agree. However, most of us here already believe that Cooper was in on the hoax, calling the hoaxy 2:26 death time, etc.
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#15. If the patient were a DWD patient, then rescue efforts such as those described having been administered to MJ violates ethics on the part of MJ, Murray, and AEG (and any other potential producers/financial backers of DH), for knowingly allowing a person who’s will it was to end their life peacefully under their own control, be subjected to extreme methods of resuscitation for an extended duration of time. Successful or not, this action is a direct violation of this patient’s end of life wishes.
#15. People often agree to be organ donors. While still alive, a DWD patient can give consent for his body to be used for artistic, medical, scientific, and/or other purposes, etc.
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#16. Because of points 4, 5, 6, and 7, the paramedics and ER emergency Dr.’s are required to be in on it, so we lack motive of who the real body is designed to fool.
#16. There can be other reasons for using a real body, than just fooling someone. For example, more realism and honesty in testimonies (see #11, above). Another reason could be related to the sting. In addition to these reasons, though, we still have the possibility of an unexpected person getting into the mix. Even if we could prove that all paramedics who showed up at Carolwood were in the hoax, and all UCLA staff that dealt with the body were in the hoax (and this would be tough to prove at best, if not impossible): yet that would only be dealing with what actually happened, and not with what could’ve happened unexpectedly. What if one of the paramedics, who was planned to be dealing directly with the body, got very sick and could not make it to work on June 25, 2009? More likely even than unplanned paramedics getting in the mix, would be unplanned UCLA staff. Sure, you can lock doors; but some of the staff have top security clearances, and keys to all the doors. There would probably be at least three shifts of people in this category—and what if one of them happened to be at the hospital during their unscheduled hours (perhaps they forgot something from the previous shift, and came by to get it, or whatever). If they learned about MJ arriving, they would probably want to dive in and “help out”. If that person discovered a dummy, or a perfectly healthy live MJ, they could blow the whistle and spoil everything.
Post by: TS_comments on November 30, 2012, 01:55:00 AM
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430204.html#msg430204 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430204.html#msg430204)}
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#1. MJ was reported to be “Alive at UCLA”.
#1. He was also reported as dying at UCLA. If the reports are true, then MJ is dead and there is no hoax. If the reports are partly true, then which is true and which is false? Perhaps the “alive” part is true, and the “at UCLA” part is false (along with the dying part). At best, this “alive” (at UCLA) report could be considered a clue—but a clue of what: the live MJ theory, or merely a clue that he is still alive? Also, if we went looking for clues: we could find corpse clues (in addition to dummy clues), such as the TMZ article about finding a corpse one morning at the Murray court. For the record, I’m not saying that a dummy was never used during the hoax; for example, La Toya perfectly described a dummy in the casket, that continued for weeks just as good as new! :suspect: :animal0017: :suspect: :icon_lol: So we have to be careful not to apply clues to the wrong time or event.
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#2. Allows for on-the-scene direction/consultation in case anything unforeseen ocurred which required on-the-spot changes or alterations in the plan.
#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (9-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com (http://www.hushmail.com)}.
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#3. Completely eliminates the risk that the hoax will be ruined by MJ being discovered safe and hiding somewhere else, or sneaking away shortly before 6/25/09, when he is supposed to be suddenly dead/dying at UCLA that day.
#3. Everyone here already knows how good MJ is at disguising himself. Back when he went door to door as a Jehovah’s Witness: even when he was not wearing a disguise, people would tell him that he looked a lot like MJ (and yet some never realized that it WAS indeed MJ himself). So if anyone happened to see him on or after 6-25-09, even if he was not wearing a disguise, they would most likely conclude that it was a look-alike or a double—especially if he had already left town, and was seen somewhere other than LA. And with a disguise, which he would almost certainly wear on 6-25-09, there would be almost no chance of the hoax getting ruined because someone saw him. The live MJ to UCLA theory also poses the same basic problem, once he shifted from patient mode to escape mode.
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#4. MJ had to leave Carrolwood somehow, at some point, same as above, allows MJ to not be discovered/seen leaving Carrolwood anytime sooner or later then reported.
#4. But he could leave Carolwood, in the middle of the night, with disguises and the extra security, and nobody would know who came or went (that is, if he ever even came home from that last rehearsal).
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#5. Eliminates the need for MJ to hide, be disguised, travel to, and arrange for insiders at a 2nd or 3rd location as would be necessary to coordinate if escaping via another means.
#5. I don’t see how live MJ to UCLA would “eliminate” the need for disguise or escape, etc, it would only delay this need for a few hours.
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#6. Allows MJ to have photos taken as reported for gurney and autopsy, ensuring that those photos cannot be discovered too early (them being discovered to be in existence pre 6/25/09 would be a big problem), nor will those photos show up too late to potentially rouse suspicion of someone in a paperwork position not in on the hoax (autopsy was performed 6/26 so those pics needed to exist by then).
#6. Most of us have already agreed that the ambo pic was staged in advance, and edited with a little Photoshop help; so gurney and autopsy pics could also be staged in advance, and edited, without much if any more risk than the staged ambo pic.
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#7. Allows emergency workers to be able to accurately recall events because MJ is really there on the stretcher (probably really wearing that gown). Live simulations could be run through, in the time allowed at each location, to allow workers to have real memories, rather then fabricated alibis. MJ is not dealing with seasoned actors here, and they’re playing the role of their lives, so it is best if people are given an opportunity to have something real to remember.
#7. This is a good point. However, it fits even better—even more realism—with a DWD patient.
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#8. Allows validation of the official story should anyone not in on the hoax happen to catch a quick glimpse of the stretcher going by at any point along the way, they would really see MJ.
#8. Someone did catch a quick glimpse of the stretcher (Sharon), and she reported that it did NOT look like MJ, yet the hoax was not ruined.
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#9. Allows for unforeseen occurrences to be encountered (ambulance break down, unauthorized peaks through windows in locked doors, etc) because, just as reported, MJ is indeed just where he is supposed to be.
#9. Yes, but which unforeseen circumstances carry the most risk? A live and healthy MJ, who can’t play dead for too long? A dummy, that would certainly look like MJ, and do a great job of playing dead (but would be disastrous if discovered by any unforeseen paramedics, doctors, or nurses)? Or a real dead patient, who fit all the criteria of the official story (other than facial features—which were thoroughly covered and disguised, with various medical paraphernalia, etc)? And worst case, this last option could be dismissed as a distraction or decoy if needed; but live MJ or dummy would be very difficult to explain as a decoy or distraction.
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#10. Shortly after the ambulance arrives, the fire alarm was pulled in the portion of UCLA that MJ was reportedly in on 6/25/09, effectively minimizing the unauthorized opportunities outlined in points 8 & 9.
#10. Perhaps someone could verify the timing of the fire alarm at UCLA. Whenever it was pulled, it could be used for distraction purposes whether there was live MJ, dummy, or DWD patient.
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#11. Gives MJ a perfect escape out of UCLA, because again, he could do exactly as is reported and take the helicopter to the waiting coroner van. If he chose to go a different direction, even last minute, there would be dozens of other escape plans A-Z to explore out of the highly trafficked UCLA campus.
#11. If MJ did not go to UCLA, he would not need any perfect plan to escape from UCLA via helicopter or any other method. The DWD patient, or any other corpse for that matter, could be sent via the helicopter; and if anyone working close to the body saw that it didn’t look like MJ (which is not likely, being completely covered), the ones in charge would tell them it was a distraction.
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#12. Gives the official story a consistently interwoven element of truth; MJ really was attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ really did go to UCLA, MJ really did get transported via helicopter, MJ really did go to the coroner’s office.
#12. The same could be said if the DWD patient was named “Michael JOSEPH Jackson” (see #11 in the previous post, 12 Reasons Against Dead Body Theory). In fact, this would give the story even more elements of truth: such as MJ really died, etc.
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#13. Explains why MJ’s kids stopped crying when they were done seeing their dad’s body, the scene as described by LaToya. They stopped crying because they saw Dad’s not dead.
#13. This is a very interesting point. It indicates that the children were not initially in on the hoax, and therefore would react with real emotions—which would be very convincing for anyone at the house, and at UCLA, etc. This also explains why La Toya said MJ told Paris, on 6-24-09, what to do if he died; there would be no point in MJ saying this, if Paris already knew about the hoax for the next day. Both La Toya and Katherine said that the children never cried again, after seeing MJ in the hospital (so much for Paris crying on stage at the memorial); so this would be when they were informed of the hoax. And seeing MJ alive at UCLA would certainly stop their tears; but there is another possibility which would also stop their tears: seeing that it was a different MJ who died (as well as family members explaining the hoax to them, at that point). Oh, and one last thing here: if live MJ was on the bed at Carolwood (playing sick), or even a dummy, why did Alvarez rush the children back out of the bedroom almost before they finished entering it—what were they NOT supposed to see up close?
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#14. Explains Jermaine’s “slip up” airport comment. Jermaine said MJ wasn’t “with us long before he went to the airport… I mean hospital.” … which is 100% accurate. Just like Jermaine said. He said he meant hospital, and if we can’t trust Jermaine’s word as a true clue, what CAN we trust?
#14. As I’ve said already: we should take things at face value, unless there are strong reasons to believe otherwise. Even the media reports of MJ’s death—we only reject these things because of overwhelming evidence of the hoax. As far as Jermaine’s comment: for the public, taking it at face value means that MJ went to UCLA and not the airport (and the word “airport” was merely a blundering goof); and we should also accept this conclusion, if there were no strong evidences of the hoax. For us, however, since we already knew about the hoax long before this statement: taking it at face value means that MJ went to the airport, and not UCLA (and the word “hospital” was used, because the interviewer asked what he meant, and he could not say the truth, that MJ flew away into hiding, without ruining the hoax). Speaking of flying away, some even suggested that MJ went to the airport, but did not get on a plane, merely because Jermaine only said “airport”. However, people don’t usually go to the airport to buy shoestrings. And Jermaine could not get away with saying: “… long before he went to the airport, and hopped on a plane, and flew to --- oooppss, I mean hospital!” That just would not “fly”, as an accidental goof. So Jermaine could only insert one clue word, and then he went back to the official version. And if that word was a clue, then we should asses the purpose and meaning of the clue. How many misleading clues have we received, from the Jackson family? Are there any, other than Joe’s allegedly false clue about doubles (and in fact doubles is a topic of wide disagreement, even among hoax believers)?
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#15. Changes the least amount of variables from the official story. The only thing that isn’t true is MJ being dead.
#15. It seems that a DWD patient named Michael JOSEPH Jackson would change even less from the official story, than the live MJ theory—including it would be true that MJ is dead. In fact, it would even be true that MJ killed himself (self-administered the lethal medication).
Post by: TS_comments on November 30, 2012, 01:56:01 AM
Now for a dozen evidences in support of the DWD theory. This is merely a review, so I won’t be repeating much of the details (they can be found in previous posts by me and/or others). And please pay attention to the difference between the reasons for the FBI choosing to use a DWD patient (which we may not fully understand), and the evidences that a real DWD patient was actually used (which we should all be able to understand).
#1 Confusion of appearance (both with the real MJ, and also with the DWD patient); there would be no need for confusion of appearance, if a good MJ look-alike dummy was used, or live MJ.
#2 The 3-5-09 WA DWD. If we dismiss this as merely a koinkidink, then why not dismiss all the other hoax koinkidinks? Besides, this is not “stand alone” evidence—it is evidence which fits perfectly into all the other points listed here.
#3 Two “unknown” WA DWD death locations in 2009 (never any other “unknown” in WA, and no “unknown” in OR for the first 13 years).
#4 TIAI redirected to the TMZ home page, shortly before the TMZ article that MJ killed himself (on 4-4 at 4am, 2010); and DWD patients must “ingest the medication unassisted”—they must kill themselves.
#5 Paramedics said that it looked like a hospice patient (about 80% to 90% of DWD deaths were also hospice patients). Whether they are all in on the hoax, or not, there has been no good explanation for why they would lie about this.
#6 The warm room on a summer day in California seems unnecessary, if it was a dummy or live MJ.
#7 Nobody was allowed upstairs in the Carolwood home. A dummy could be kept in a locked case, until the “emergency” began; aside from a few seconds to take the dummy out of the case, and place it on the bed, there would never be any problem if someone not in the hoax went upstairs. The live MJ theory would also need little if any secrecy upstairs.
#8 Reports from MJ fans that there was a lot of extra security at Carolwood on the night of June 24/25, 2009. This would be when the DWD patient was brought into the home (and also explains a reason for the missing CCTV). Like #7 above, a locked up dummy or live MJ would not need all that extra security.
#9 The staff was dismissed, before bringing the body down to the ambulance (stated by Kai and Ben); this would not be needed, if there was a dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009 or live MJ.
#10 The towel on the face (another precaution, in addition to dismissing the staff); again, this would not be needed, if there was a dummy or live MJ. This also provides another reason for staging the ambo pic in advance; if it was a dummy or live MJ, they could’ve arranged things to “accidentally” let Ben or Chris get a shot of loading MJ into the ambulance, or something. But if it was a DWD patient, a picture taken in real time would not work.
#11 Sharon said that the body on the stretcher was too short for MJ. A dummy would be made to match the size of MJ, and would not be too short; and live MJ certainly would not be too short. We can try to minimize this evidence, by saying that Sharon did not have a good perspective of the patient on the stretcher, or Sharon is not a reliable witness, or whatever. However, with the DWD theory, you don’t have to come up with any such explanations—you can simply take it at face value, the patient looked shorter than Michael because the patient WAS shorter than Michael. Simple.
#12 The verdict: “Superior court of California Los Angeles County. The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Conrad Robert Murray defendant. Case number SA-073164. Title of court and cause. We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. In violation of penal code section 192 subsection B alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009 as charged in count I of the information.” The charge stated in context is “involuntary manslaughter”—not suicide, or assisted suicide; so even if the DWD patient method was illegal in CA, yet the patient would not be an actual victim of manslaughter (he would be an “alleged victim”). And especially with the FBI sting making the DWD method legal in CA, there is certainly no legal basis for the patient being an actual victim of manslaughter.
We may not be able to positively verify all 12 of these points (such as the towel on the face); however, as I said already, we should take things at “face” value—unless there is good evidence that someone is lying. And in this case, all 12 evidences support the same simple conclusion; no need for any fancy back-flips, or complicated explanations. {see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor)}
I am not listing the following as one of the twelve evidences, but La Toya did give a very clear clue less than ten minutes after TS first posted the DWD evidence: “What is everyone doing with the left overs?” {https://twitter.com/latoyajackson/status/272069763553964033 (https://twitter.com/latoyajackson/status/272069763553964033)}
And clear back in March of 2010 (Update #4), TS said: “… Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died.” Notice that I did not mention a corpse in cold storage for a long time; and DWD fits exactly with a patient who had “recently died.”
If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.
Oh, and one last very important point: almost all of these 12 evidences support the hoax theory, and do not support the literal murder theory.
I rest my case.
:judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley:
Post by: TS_comments on November 30, 2012, 01:59:26 AM
“Finally, just like last time, I may play “DA” (devil's advocate)—and try to debunk things that are true, just to keep you on your toes!”
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18185.msg311334.html#msg311334 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18185.msg311334.html#msg311334)}
Love to bec, and everyone else!
:bearhug: :bearhug: :bearhug:
P.S. @Front: what grade do I get? An “A”, an “F”, or an “N”??
:icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 30, 2012, 02:05:44 AM
You get a T, TS, as in Time to fess up to everything you know about the hoax...lol
P.S T.S you should really stop talking to yourself, it's kinda creepy, you'll scare the children...lol, jks
Post by: bec on November 30, 2012, 02:14:33 AM
Post by: Loveunited on November 30, 2012, 02:44:02 AM
DWD patient would also explain why Mr Jackson lost weight the last few months between Joe and Katherine's anniversary and June ?
I just want to say that I feel we all owe the biggest honor to the DWD person who assisted the FBI and Mr Jackson in this endeavor. As the criminal element of the sting becomes revealed, I am sure that the part this person played in donating their death to this cause. I believe BAM celebration should be an honorarium to this individual. God Bless.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 30, 2012, 02:56:01 AM
Graduation day!! :multiplespotting: :abouttime: :elvis-1405:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 03:08:40 AM
So the essence of your post is...
- a dwd patient used.
- FBI actively involved in the sting.
- A sting not just an artistic one, involves serious criminal investigation.
- FBI and MJ shared their responsibilities in setting up this hoax.
---------
TS:
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However, in some case, it’s true that I actually do not know for sure what happened; I said very early, that I don’t know everything about the hoax. And in this case, I do not know exactly what the FBI agents told the DWD patient—nor does MJ himself know, for that matter. And most likely, the FBI is not going to disclose those kind of details to anyone.
If the FBI did 'say' anything to the DWD patient (which would probably relate to the hoax/sting, i guess), wouldn't that again violate CA law? Because the FBI is actually talking with this patient regarding the hoax/sting.
Another point which i have raised earlier, some pages ago.
It's not guaranteed (at this point) that these DWD patients are Michael fans or admirers who would 'willingly' want to assist in the hoax, and be of a great help/significance in helping MJ and FBI in accomplishing their mission.
This DWD patient might also be any other guy, believing the media lies on Michael. ok If not Michael, why would the patient want to assist the FBI in carrying out their mission.
As it is not stated anywhere that the patient willingly agreed to be a part of the hoax, it gives room for the speculation that FBI might have convinced this patient to co-operate with them...This can violate the CA Law, as they would be providing 'advice'.
Post by: marumjj on November 30, 2012, 03:31:48 AM
Post by: marumjj on November 30, 2012, 03:37:35 AM
Post by: jono on November 30, 2012, 04:28:02 AM
Well... As long as I don't miss the BAM party I'll be alright!
:multiplespotting:
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
Haha! Good one Front! :LolLolLolLol: The suspense...
Post by: MJonmind on November 30, 2012, 04:37:45 AM
TS, amazing, amazing, amazing!! Everything totally makes sense! Wow, just to have everything laid out so organized. And to think of the blood, sweat and tears we went through sifting through all the possible scenarios. Like doing a 5000 piece puzzle, we were having trouble with where certain pieces fit, but those pieces affect everything else. We did have fun doing it together with your 'tricky' 'careful' guidance. My hat is totally off to you!!! Thanks a huge lot!
You and Front surely have a strange relationship; you sound like twins or... :icon_e_confused: :Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile
Or "The exact Scenario". http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Lisa-Marie-Presleys-Blog-Post-About-Michael-Jackson
Front=Michael, these 3 1/2 years have been the experience of a lifetime, bar none. Though no one in my life really believes me that the real you has been here--oh well... :icon_rolleyes: But thank you and my sincere love to you! May you live to at least 110 (like Joseph) so you don't have to go through this again! :icon_lol:
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#6. Most of us have already agreed that the ambo pic was staged in advance, and edited with a little Photoshop help; so gurney and autopsy pics could also be staged in advance, and edited, without much if any more risk than the staged ambo pic.So I’m thinking that those pics were all really MJ, with lots of body make-up--very banged up and bruised... :icon_cry: but very alive! :icon_e_biggrin:
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However, people don’t usually go to the airport to buy shoestrings. And Jermaine could not get away with saying: “… long before he went to the airport, and hopped on a plane, and flew to --- oooppss, I mean hospital!” That just would not “fly”, as an accidental goof.You crack me up!!
Loveunited
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DWD patient would also explain why Mr Jackson lost weight the last few months between Joe and Katherine's anniversary and June ?Yep, Elvis gained weight to look more like his replacement hospice patient.
Thriller4ever, you made good points. I'm thinking the DWD patient would legally have to be fully clear thinking when they made the decision, and if the FBI explained to him that MJ had been framed in the earlier accusations and that these people were hurting many others as well, and need to be stopped, I think the person would have been happy to end suffering for many innocent people. That's why I always put that I will donate any organs needed on my license, so that I can possibly help even in death.
P.s. I also want to give my utmost respect to the family of this man who was willing to die in this manner, which also accommodated MJ's cause for healing the world.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 30, 2012, 05:46:34 AM
@TS, thanks for throwing some 'meat' into the leftovers , which were pretty 'meaty' already lol. And thanks for all your guidance throughout ALL the levels...the levels sure provided us with many opportunities to sharpen our investigative skills. The skills learned along the way greatly helped in investigating/researching Level 7 and in piecing together what took place. Even with some details missing, some of which we may never know, the picture is, essentially, complete.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: BeTheChange on November 30, 2012, 05:49:36 AM
I just want to say that I feel we all owe the biggest honor to the DWD person who assisted the FBI and Mr Jackson in this endeavor. As the criminal element of the sting becomes revealed, I am sure that the part this person played in donating their death to this cause. I believe BAM celebration should be an honorarium to this individual. God Bless.
+ 1
May he rest in peace.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: RedPennylocks on November 30, 2012, 05:58:02 AM
I just want to say that I feel we all owe the biggest honor to the DWD person who assisted the FBI and Mr Jackson in this endeavor. As the criminal element of the sting becomes revealed, I am sure that the part this person played in donating their death to this cause. I believe BAM celebration should be an honorarium to this individual. God Bless.
I feel the same as you do and agree. God bless him and may he rest in peace.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 30, 2012, 05:59:13 AM
+2 :smiley_abuv: :smiley_abuv: :bearhug: :bearhug:I just want to say that I feel we all owe the biggest honor to the DWD person who assisted the FBI and Mr Jackson in this endeavor. As the criminal element of the sting becomes revealed, I am sure that the part this person played in donating their death to this cause. I believe BAM celebration should be an honorarium to this individual. God Bless.
+ 1
May he rest in peace.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Adi on November 30, 2012, 06:11:00 AM
WOW TS! thank you so much.
I just want to say that I feel we all owe the biggest honor to the DWD person who assisted the FBI and Mr Jackson in this endeavor. As the criminal element of the sting becomes revealed, I am sure that the part this person played in donating their death to this cause. I believe BAM celebration should be an honorarium to this individual. God Bless.
Yes indeed. It's very humbling to think about this persons involvement and how they were willing to help others (potentially the entire world - depending on what the sting is) in their own time of need. Pretty mind blowing actually.
One date I noticed TS is the date you have for the burial in the quote below. I presume this is not a mistake or a typo and you have intentionally given us the date the burial was really filmed and then later beamed to the world on 9-3-09?:
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#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
This is all pretty full-on so I have to take some time to digest it all....
..and yay...we finally have that last piece of the puzzle in place in the picture :icon_cool:
Post by: Sarahli on November 30, 2012, 06:18:33 AM
Thank you TS and bravo. Finally the puzzle picture is complete. :woohoo2: :smiley_abuv:
I bet Front will give you an “N” for Neat or should I write _eat , we’ve been given food on a silver platter after all so I guess that fits perfectly. :icon_lol:
(http://www2.parmacityschools.org/staff/f/fratoem/images/image-of-A-paper.jpg)
Post by: Jos on November 30, 2012, 06:21:02 AM
I just want to say that I feel we all owe the biggest honor to the DWD person who assisted the FBI and Mr Jackson in this endeavor. As the criminal element of the sting becomes revealed, I am sure that the part this person played in donating their death to this cause. I believe BAM celebration should be an honorarium to this individual. God Bless.
:th_bravo: Indeed, may he Rest In Peace!
@ TS (indeed an A+ for you!)
Thank you very much for your explanations! I feel so sorry for the wrong outings I made earlier.
Thankfully you you accepted my apologies.
:bearhug:
Now, let's build a BAM- party :multiplespotting:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 06:25:05 AM
Yes may God bless this person’s soul.
Thank you TS and bravo. Finally the puzzle picture is complete. :woohoo2: :smiley_abuv:
I bet Front will give you an “N” for Neat or should I write _eat , we’ve been given food on a silver platter after all so I guess that fits perfectly. :icon_lol:
(http://www2.parmacityschools.org/staff/f/fratoem/images/image-of-A-paper.jpg)
:thjajaja121: nice one sarahli !!!
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 30, 2012, 06:46:39 AM
Post by: emulik on November 30, 2012, 06:52:06 AM
:affraid: (http://i49.tinypic.com/2wptjdu.jpg) :icon_lol:
@MJ: nice to see you post in this thread!
:icon_e_surprised: :icon_e_surprised:
:penguin:
@TS...(http://i50.tinypic.com/2w35dg7.png)
Post by: jono on November 30, 2012, 07:07:52 AM
“Finally, just like last time, I may play “DA” (devil's advocate)—and try to debunk things that are true, just to keep you on your toes!”
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18185.msg311334.html#msg311334 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18185.msg311334.html#msg311334)}
Love to bec, and everyone else!
:bearhug: :bearhug: :bearhug:
P.S. @Front: what grade do I get? An “A”, an “F”, or an “N”??
:icon_lol: :icon_lol:
I'm thinking "hmmmm" here... :animal0017:
TS, you're a sneaky one!
:bearhug:
PS. Am I the only one still thinking "dummy"? :icon_lol:
Post by: sandythyme on November 30, 2012, 07:29:14 AM
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 30, 2012, 07:47:03 AM
...I mean some points for Live MJ and some points for the DWD can be used for the opposite theory. But what I still do not see is how the patient would get into the house undetected, I mean Live MJ guarantees that there is no need for a risk in bringing this patient in. What if the patient chose to back out at the VERY LAST MINUTE while he was in the house? Yeah maybe a second person would do it, but then you'd still need to get the first patient out of the house without arousing suspicion.
Post by: SimPattyK on November 30, 2012, 08:00:21 AM
at 10 a.m. in the morning (Romanian time)...if that was 12 a.m. in California...
So there's a 10 hours difference!! :icon_eek: IDK why I thought it was only a 7 or 8 hours!!
I was amazed and confused at the same time while reading TS posts! there are things that I can finally and completely understand now , but still many things that I don't understand or that still get me scratching my head :Pulling_hair:
If the patient was already planning to take the medication, days or weeks earlier—and the FBI convinced him to wait until arriving at Carolwood—it is likely that he would voluntarily choose to take his medication, shortly after arriving (and the exact time of death is unknown, remember?).Brilliant!! just freakin' genius!!
In this case, they would not be encouraging suicide; if anything, they would be encouraging him to delay suicide (and therefore they helped him to extend his life).
However, in some case, it’s true that I actually do not know for sure what happened; I said very early, that I don’t know everything about the hoax. And in this case, I do not know exactly what the FBI agents told the DWD patient—nor does MJ himself know, for that matter. And most likely, the FBI is not going to disclose those kind of details to anyone.WoW! Perfect cover up! I've never thought before of this possibility of Michael not knowing entirely everything about how the sting (hoax) was done!! very interesting perspective of FBI being the only part involved that knows everything! and that probably will remain that way forever! We might probably die and still won't find out how they pulled off this giant hoax!
Question #1: Is he in violation of WA law, merely because he is not located in WA State when ingesting the medication?Just perfect!
Answer #1: The answer is once meds are obtained it does not matter where they are taken.
However, if they were performing a serious sting operation for real criminal investigation, then CA courts would have little if any power to enforce CA state law on them.Amazing plan! :icon_albino: Yes I remember!
Therefore, understanding Level 7 makes it very clear that there is real criminal sting, and not merely the FBI helping MJ to produce an artistic sting. Does anyone remember me saying something like this before?
12 Reasons Against Dead Body Theory
#4. With a DWD patient, you don’t need to store a corpse until go time (see also answer to #15, below).
#6. Rigor mortis could also occur if the real MJ died that day—so whether a DWD patient, or the real MJ, this poses no problem even if none of the paramedics were in on the hoax.Quote#7. It was reported that the body was ID’ed from MJ’s driver’s license at the hospital. Neither a DWD patient nor a random corpse could be ID’ed as MJ from a pic of MJ.#7. Agree. However, this same problem exists with either a dummy or live MJ. Somebody in the hoax is the only solution, then, for body identification.
---> I didn't quite get that!?
#8. There were two different deaths: the DWD patient (real death), and real MJ (fake death). The DWD patient was not a celebrity, so his real death would not be a “high profile” death—and therefore no need for UCLA to make any public statement about it. The real MJ would be “high profile”; but UCLA did not announce it, because it was not a real death.
#9. This is about the same as the last one. Two deaths means two death certificates: one real DC (which we never saw), and one fake DC (not signed by the doctors in the hoax, because it was not a real death).
#11. As already discussed in previous levels, a sting incorporates deceptive elements (along with factors to avoid entrapment). Furthermore, the dummy theory would also have deceptive elements, as well as the live MJ theory. However, the DWD patient provides the least deception, and the most realism and honesty—at least for the paramedics and doctors who testified. Some of those in on it, even knowing that it was a sting, may have been reluctant or even refused to testify lies at the trial. Providing a real patient, going through all the real steps in the process, and even giving the real name of Michael JOSEPH Jackson—these things would allow honest testimonies, with a straight face. See the following article on name changes, notice especially CA law. {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_change (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_change)}
#15. People often agree to be organ donors. While still alive, a DWD patient can give consent for his body to be used for artistic, medical, scientific, and/or other purposes, etc.
12 Reasons Supporting Live MJ Theory:suspect: :animal0017:
#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI.
The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com (http://www.hushmail.com)}.
---> OK, so that's clear now: FBI conducted mainly what happened on June 25th, with MJ only having certain part in it. And the rest of the major hoax-events were directed by MJ mainly. FBI being majorly involved in the events of June 25th, finally explains to me why it's still so difficult to understand everything that happened "that day" !! I am 90% sure now that we will never know all the answers! part of that info will remain classified!
#6. Most of us have already agreed that the ambo pic was staged in advance, and edited with a little Photoshop help; so gurney and autopsy pics could also be staged in advance, and edited, without much if any more risk than the staged ambo pic.Quote#8. Allows validation of the official story should anyone not in on the hoax happen to catch a quick glimpse of the stretcher going by at any point along the way, they would really see MJ.#8. Someone did catch a quick glimpse of the stretcher (Sharon), and she reported that it did NOT look like MJ, yet the hoax was not ruined.
---> ROFL :thjajaja121:
#9. Yes, but which unforeseen circumstances carry the most risk? A live and healthy MJ, who can’t play dead for too long? A dummy, that would certainly look like MJ, and do a great job of playing dead (but would be disastrous if discovered by any unforeseen paramedics, doctors, or nurses)? Or a real dead patient, who fit all the criteria of the official story (other than facial features—which were thoroughly covered and disguised, with various medical paraphernalia, etc)? And worst case, this last option could be dismissed as a distraction or decoy if needed; but live MJ or dummy would be very difficult to explain as a decoy or distraction.
---> Perfect! PURRRFECT!! Genius!! freakin' GENIUS!! :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce:Quote#12. Gives the official story a consistently interwoven element of truth; MJ really was attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ really did go to UCLA, MJ really did get transported via helicopter, MJ really did go to the coroner’s office.#12. The same could be said if the DWD patient was named “Michael JOSEPH Jackson” (see #11 in the previous post, 12 Reasons Against Dead Body Theory). In fact, this would give the story even more elements of truth: such as MJ really died, etc.
----> I LOVE this hoax! :woohoo2:Quote#13. Explains why MJ’s kids stopped crying when they were done seeing their dad’s body, the scene as described by LaToya. They stopped crying because they saw Dad’s not dead.#13. This is a very interesting point. It indicates that the children were not initially in on the hoax, and therefore would react with real emotions—which would be very convincing for anyone at the house, and at UCLA, etc. This also explains why La Toya said MJ told Paris, on 6-24-09, what to do if he died; there would be no point in MJ saying this, if Paris already knew about the hoax for the next day. Both La Toya and Katherine said that the children never cried again, after seeing MJ in the hospital (so much for Paris crying on stage at the memorial); so this would be when they were informed of the hoax. And seeing MJ alive at UCLA would certainly stop their tears; but there is another possibility which would also stop their tears: seeing that it was a different MJ who died (as well as family members explaining the hoax to them, at that point). Oh, and one last thing here: if live MJ was on the bed at Carolwood (playing sick), or even a dummy, why did Alvarez rush the children back out of the bedroom almost before they finished entering it—what were they NOT supposed to see up close?
---> This is the answer that I most expected!! great explanation! OMG!!Quote#14. Explains Jermaine’s “slip up” airport comment. Jermaine said MJ wasn’t “with us long before he went to the airport… I mean hospital.” … which is 100% accurate. Just like Jermaine said. He said he meant hospital, and if we can’t trust Jermaine’s word as a true clue, what CAN we trust?
#14. As I’ve said already: we should take things at face value, unless there are strong reasons to believe otherwise. Even the media reports of MJ’s death—we only reject these things because of overwhelming evidence of the hoax. As far as Jermaine’s comment: for the public, taking it at face value means that MJ went to UCLA and not the airport (and the word “airport” was merely a blundering goof); and we should also accept this conclusion, if there were no strong evidences of the hoax. For us, however, since we already knew about the hoax long before this statement: taking it at face value means that MJ went to the airport, and not UCLA (and the word “hospital” was used, because the interviewer asked what he meant, and he could not say the truth, that MJ flew away into hiding, without ruining the hoax). Speaking of flying away, some even suggested that MJ went to the airport, but did not get on a plane, merely because Jermaine only said “airport”. However, people don’t usually go to the airport to buy shoestrings. And Jermaine could not get away with saying: “… long before he went to the airport, and hopped on a plane, and flew to --- oooppss, I mean hospital!” That just would not “fly”, as an accidental goof. So Jermaine could only insert one clue word, and then he went back to the official version. And if that word was a clue, then we should asses the purpose and meaning of the clue. How many misleading clues have we received, from the Jackson family? Are there any, other than Joe’s allegedly false clue about doubles (and in fact doubles is a topic of wide disagreement, even among hoax believers)?
----> hummm... I don't quite get this paragraph in its entirety... I'll have to think more about this...
12 Evidences for DWDApart from what I quoted here above^^.... (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Confus/3d-yeux-zarbi.gif) I didn't understand anything of this 3rd set of answers
Now for a dozen evidences in support of the DWD theory. This is merely a review, so I won’t be repeating much of the details (they can be found in previous posts by me and/or others). And please pay attention to the difference between the reasons for the FBI choosing to use a DWD patient (which we may not fully understand), and the evidences that a real DWD patient was actually used (which we should all be able to understand).
#11 Sharon said that the body on the stretcher was too short for MJ. A dummy would be made to match the size of MJ, and would not be too short; and live MJ certainly would not be too short. We can try to minimize this evidence, by saying that Sharon did not have a good perspective of the patient on the stretcher, or Sharon is not a reliable witness, or whatever. However, with the DWD theory, you don’t have to come up with any such explanations—you can simply take it at face value, the patient looked shorter than Michael because the patient WAS shorter than Michael. Simple.
We may not be able to positively verify all 12 of these points (such as the towel on the face); however, as I said already, we should take things at “face” value—unless there is good evidence that someone is lying. And in this case, all 12 evidences support the same simple conclusion; no need for any fancy back-flips, or complicated explanations. {see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor)}Even if I don't understand most of this whole "June 25th"-thing :suspect: :animal0017: , I believe in the hoax and the "holy BAM" more than ever! :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
I am not listing the following as one of the twelve evidences, but La Toya did give a very clear clue less than ten minutes after TS first posted the DWD evidence: “What is everyone doing with the left overs?” {https://twitter.com/latoyajackson/status/272069763553964033 (https://twitter.com/latoyajackson/status/272069763553964033)}
And clear back in March of 2010 (Update #4), TS said: “… Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died.” Notice that I did not mention a corpse in cold storage for a long time; and DWD fits exactly with a patient who had “recently died.”I can't find any logical nor "imaginary" reasons of why would TS/Front/MJ try to fool us into believing in a DWD illusion. From what I could grasp of this whole stuff , I think/believe that the DWD-version is much more plausible and logical than the other ones: dummy or live MJ - theories.
If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt.
Post by: Andrea on November 30, 2012, 08:04:39 AM
Thanks TS for your well-thought out posts. I need more time to reflect on them and read again. I did notice that some of your points were, for lack of a better word, assumptions that we have no way of verifying. Like, the DWD patient changing his name to Michael Joseph Jackson (which I've considered before) and a 2nd DC and autopsy report for a real patient. There were also some objections that I had before that I don't feel were addressed but I won't bother you with them again because you would've replied before if you'd felt a need to.
But there is a lot in your posts that do make a lot of sense and explains things in ways I hadn't considered before. It's only right that I give your reasons some serious consideration and I definitely will.
Post by: paula-c on November 30, 2012, 08:17:29 AM
Thanks TS for your well-thought out posts. I need more time to reflect on them and read again. I did notice that some of your points were, for lack of a better word, assumptions that we have no way of verifying. Like, the DWD patient changing his name to Michael Joseph Jackson (which I've considered before) and a 2nd DC and autopsy report for a real patient. There were also some objections that I had before that I don't feel were addressed but I won't bother you with them again because you would've replied before if you'd felt a need to.
But there is a lot in your posts that do make a lot of sense and explains things in ways I hadn't considered before. It's only right that I give your reasons some serious consideration and I definitely will.
Why in the last few days i read again the autopsy report, purpose of the autopsy is to answer questions about the person's illness or the cause of death and its identity, this report was shouting to all that the person who died was not MJ, many fans did not listen
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 08:28:19 AM
Quote#14. Explains Jermaine’s “slip up” airport comment. Jermaine said MJ wasn’t “with us long before he went to the airport… I mean hospital.” … which is 100% accurate. Just like Jermaine said. He said he meant hospital, and if we can’t trust Jermaine’s word as a true clue, what CAN we trust?
#14. As I’ve said already: we should take things at face value, unless there are strong reasons to believe otherwise. Even the media reports of MJ’s death—we only reject these things because of overwhelming evidence of the hoax. As far as Jermaine’s comment: for the public, taking it at face value means that MJ went to UCLA and not the airport (and the word “airport” was merely a blundering goof); and we should also accept this conclusion, if there were no strong evidences of the hoax. For us, however, since we already knew about the hoax long before this statement: taking it at face value means that MJ went to the airport, and not UCLA (and the word “hospital” was used, because the interviewer asked what he meant, and he could not say the truth, that MJ flew away into hiding, without ruining the hoax). Speaking of flying away, some even suggested that MJ went to the airport, but did not get on a plane, merely because Jermaine only said “airport”. However, people don’t usually go to the airport to buy shoestrings. And Jermaine could not get away with saying: “… long before he went to the airport, and hopped on a plane, and flew to --- oooppss, I mean hospital!” That just would not “fly”, as an accidental goof. So Jermaine could only insert one clue word, and then he went back to the official version. And if that word was a clue, then we should asses the purpose and meaning of the clue. How many misleading clues have we received, from the Jackson family? Are there any, other than Joe’s allegedly false clue about doubles (and in fact doubles is a topic of wide disagreement, even among hoax believers)?
----> hummm... I don't quite get this paragraph in its entirety... I'll have to think more about this...
TS is talking about taking things at face value, unless we have solid evidence to prove against it. The world believes Michael is dead because the media said so. They took it at 'face value'. While we have a LOT of evidence to say he is alive. we know that for sure.
When Jermaine says 'airport, I mean...hospital', the public( which thinks MJ is dead) believes that MJ went to the hospital (that's face value for them)
But for us believers (since we know he is alive!) face value for us would mean 'MJ went to the airport' because this statement by Jermaine would be a clue for us...
I hope I was clear in my explanation...LOL, and correct me if I've misunderstood TS's post...
Post by: iamamjbeliever on November 30, 2012, 08:40:45 AM
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 30, 2012, 08:45:03 AM
(http://coverville.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cov9181.jpg)
Got to catch up on what I missed after midnight :icon_e_biggrin: From the little I’ve read thus far, TS - great job!
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 08:53:21 AM
What does DWD mean?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429827.html#msg429827
please make sure u are on the same page... L.O.V.E.!
Post by: Jos on November 30, 2012, 08:54:11 AM
Post by: SimPattyK on November 30, 2012, 08:56:24 AM
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
@MJ: nice to see you post in this thread!(http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Surpris/3d-surpris-non.gif) say WHAAAT!?? 1st Front post in TS-thread! :affraid: and 1st reference by TS to Front as MJ !?? :affraid:
Lord have mercy!! :bowdown:
Now THAT ^^ definitely makes it a mini-BAM !!! WHOOOOOOAAAOOOW (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Surpris/surpris-yeux-crie.gif)
P.S. @Front: what grade do I get? An “A”, an “F”, or an “N”?? :icon_lol: :icon_lol:TS do you really enjoy talking to yourself?
Or is this the moMment when we are supposed to have the confirmation that you guys are indeed 2 distinct persons? :affraid:
I don't believe this! :icon_geek: I need more proof than just that!
Until then .... Front & TS = MJ :michael-jackson: at least in MY opinion! :icon_lol:
For you, @TS :icon_geek: :icon_lol:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m7dcbIKvlw[/youtube]
Post by: curls on November 30, 2012, 08:57:48 AM
I have to go back and re-read several times but a general overview is as if we have 2 totally separate things going on here: a real person dying, going to UCLA, being pronounced dead, given a death certificate and autopsy (happens all the time, every day, doesn't make the news) and Jermaine announcing MJ had died, and somehow the two stories end up getting merged together.
Without wishing to sound flippant this really reminds me of the Thriller video where the action morphs from real-life, to horror, to movie, back to supposed real-life, more horror and ending with a final shock!
Also as I have at times suspected, it would now appear TS doesn't know everything and therefore maybe we really have been helping him to work it out! And emphasis on significant involvement of the FBI, and consequent lack of disclosure of ALL the info, conveniently leaves the main question I have unanswered, i.e. WHY?
And then...... TS has to go and end by saying he may play DA - thereby covering his ass yet again!!
Back to reading .... and digesting.
Post by: iamamjbeliever on November 30, 2012, 09:11:59 AM
What does DWD mean?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429827.html#msg429827
please make sure u are on the same page... L.O.V.E.!
thnx
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 30, 2012, 09:23:03 AM
Wait but.
He didn't say eat in this thread he said post.
So alright then. I agree, it's nice to see MJ post in this thread. What do you think of my lists, MJ?
Yes Bec yes if TS said to @MJ nice to see POST in this tread that means that FRONT = MJ I knew it from the start :woohoo2: :icon_bounce: :michael-jackson: :moonwalk_: :michael_jackson-1135:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 09:26:43 AM
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
.....MJ :suspect: :animal0017: :icon_e_geek:
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 30, 2012, 09:36:08 AM
Or…it could have been staged to show us that this ladies and gentlemen is my clue to you that this is the beginning of the hoax
WOW DWD fits for me. All the pieces fall into place using that theory, including the reason for the hoax being a criminal sting with FBI involvement, making it an issue concerning Michael’s safety as I’ve always asserted. This answers a lot of questions and fills in a lot of the gaps; Michael’s apparent weight loss (illusion); consistent lengthy visits to Dr. Klein’s Office (illusion/speculation); the coroner van video (pre-recorded - possibly to get the needed shots for 6/25/09 should any questions arise re: identity); the autopsy photo - no one allowed upstairs & everyone dismissed before body removed (hidden identity of patient); prayer circle in This Is It; Oxygen tanks, etc. to keep patient comfortable but no resuscitation equipment because it was not needed per patient’s desires; and of course the old, outdated & no longer used Stryker Renaissance stretcher photo - [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob5sbMmzcfQ[/youtube] just wow :th_bravo:
I will have to read over all of this again, but it is fascinating to say the least.
So, TS, how is Michael now? Is he safe? Is he happy?
Post by: diggyon on November 30, 2012, 10:05:24 AM
at the moment I have mixed feelings! I am sad, sort of disappointed from the FBI, and also happy because finally we have all puzzle pieces put together.
I am sad because according to my religious beliefs the guy who died in Michael's house committed suicide. I am sure many would disagree with me, of course. That's why I will not discuss in details why I see it this way. I'm disappointed from the FBI because they chose someone who volunteered for this DWD program. There must have been so many other ways to get a dead body. What about people who are sentenced to death? What about people who already died in accidents, or in hospitals! Getting any corpse form UCLA could have been easier in my opinion and the whole act could have been completely different.
I am not a genius, like Michael to put such a plan. But I'm sure that this DWD thing could have been prevented somehow.
Anyway, the guys is dead. I guess we should all pray for him, as many of you have posted! I just wonder how did his family feel while he was all alone determined to leave our world for good? I wonder how every body in Michael's house felt after seeing this guy dead, after he was talking to them maybe an hour before he died! It must have been a sad scene! Did this guy suffer while dying? Did anyone know how he was feeling while dying? I am sure it was not the case because he had to be left alone! In all the cases I know people prefer to die among their families because they will never see them again.
But again, who cares! His death is legal, no doubt!
Once again, thank you TS for the information given to us. Now we can move on ...........
Blessings
Post by: SimPattyK on November 30, 2012, 10:51:34 AM
Post by: ellyd on November 30, 2012, 10:56:49 AM
I just want to say that I feel we all owe the biggest honor to the DWD person who assisted the FBI and Mr Jackson in this endeavor. As the criminal element of the sting becomes revealed, I am sure that the part this person played in donating their death to this cause. I believe BAM celebration should be an honorarium to this individual. God Bless.
+ 1
May he rest in peace.
With L.O.V.E. always.
+ 1
Absolutely.
I guess he was the corpse at the private funeral we've seen.
I hadn't set up a list of reasons but an evaluation chart (facilitating decisions on a project) which I sent to bec and DWD was #1 by far. http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/evaluation.jpg (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/evaluation.jpg)
I am glad my thinking - though different - led to the same result after all - at least this time.
I was wrong so many times in this journey LOL.
Hope everything turned out for MJ and FBI as planned - wishing all the best to all participants and thanking them for their great contributions and dedication, here, there and everywhere. Phantasticoboombastical!
:smiley_abuv: :bearhug:
Hope I will be able to talk to my grandchildren about this incredible journey one day. ;-)
Nutcase closed for the time being. Finally. God am I glad hahaha.
Add.:
Special thanks to bec who has done an incredible job, to Souza for the gift of keeping the forum up and alive and to all mods for helping out and taking over responsibility. Everybody here has contributed greatly. The Jackson family deserve a family dedication award, TS - though not knowing all - has been an exceptional teacher. CM deserves a public recognition for his exceptional endurance. The list could go on and on. There have been so many supporters.
One thing remains left for the public BOOM: the target and the crime behind. I am really curious about it.
Post by: sandythyme on November 30, 2012, 11:05:02 AM
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 30, 2012, 11:14:04 AM
Sorry to say this, but........
at the moment I have mixed feelings! I am sad, sort of disappointed from the FBI, and also happy because finally we have all puzzle pieces put together.
I am sad because according to my religious beliefs the guy who died in Michael's house committed suicide. I am sure many would disagree with me, of course. That's why I will not discuss in details why I see it this way. I'm disappointed from the FBI because they chose someone who volunteered for this DWD program. There must have been so many other ways to get a dead body. What about people who are sentenced to death? What about people who already died in accidents, or in hospitals! Getting any corpse form UCLA could have been easier in my opinion and the whole act could have been completely different.
I am not a genius, like Michael to put such a plan. But I'm sure that this DWD thing could have been prevented somehow.
Anyway, the guys is dead. I guess we should all pray for him, as many of you have posted! I just wonder how did his family feel while he was all alone determined to leave our world for good? I wonder how every body in Michael's house felt after seeing this guy dead, after he was talking to them maybe an hour before he died! It must have been a sad scene! Did this guy suffer while dying? Did anyone know how he was feeling while dying? I am sure it was not the case because he had to be left alone! In all the cases I know people prefer to die among their families because they will never see them again.
But again, who cares! His death is legal, no doubt!
Once again, thank you TS for the information given to us. Now we can move on ...........
Blessings
Diggy my love I well understand what you are trying to say but you may take it this way: not being used as a DWD patient to serve this hoax purpose wouldn't stopped this person from killing himself however having done it this way FBI has lengthened his life a little bit more due to the need of moving his body from WA to LA, he has been assisted and pampered until his last minute of life furthermore he has played "The Good Samaritan" role if with his death is gonna clear MJ's name and reputation once and for all, so may he rest in peace and I am pretty pretty sure that Michael is gonna pay him a BIG TRIBUTE if he haven't done it yet.
Post by: Jos on November 30, 2012, 11:15:21 AM
Post by: bec on November 30, 2012, 11:22:02 AM
Without TS_comments we never would have figured this out so I'm not sure how this serves as preventing an entrapment defense. He just handed us all the answers on a silver platter and all that training and guidance regarding how to conduct a proper investigation and evaluate a reliable source from an unreliable one, and legitimate information from hearsay/gossip was all for naught.
My brain must work incorrectly. I apologize for trying to make others believe my bullshit.
Post by: StrangerInCalifornia on November 30, 2012, 11:30:32 AM
Well if we are supposed to in any way serve as prevention for entrapment by being able to discern the truth from the deception, I at least personally failed MJ in this mission and I'm sorry.Noooo don't feel like that! I think you've done an excellent job with the limited information that we had to work with. It took Michael (and FBI) 20 plus years to plan this, so we can't be too hard on ourselves if we couldn't place together all the pieces in ~4 years. Honestly, I'm not sure if we would have gotten as far as we did without you and I happen to admire the way your brain works. :) All your time and effort is greatly appreciated! Love u :bearhug:
Without TS_comments we never would have figured this out so I'm not sure how this serves as preventing an entrapment defense. He just handed us all the answers on a silver platter and all that training and guidance regarding how to conduct a proper investigation and evaluate a reliable source from an unreliable one, and legitimate information from hearsay/gossip was all for naught.
My brain must work incorrectly. I apologize for trying to make others believe my bullshit.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 30, 2012, 11:32:56 AM
1st ps. TS you a re a smart ass man! :icon_lol:
2nd ps. Bec you have made a very good job and I am sure TS appreciate it.
Post by: MissG on November 30, 2012, 11:39:48 AM
However, all your hard work comes back to parts of a theory that was there since 2009. Does anyone remember "Illuminus Theo"?
Michael Jackson is not Dead; so WHO died?
http://illuminustheo.blogspot.se/2009/07/michael-jackson-is-not-dead-so-who-died.html
"Michael Jackson did not die--but someone else did. Who died in Jackson's place, and why did Michael Jackson stage his own death in one of the greatest ruses in history? For that matter, why did my own highly reclusive order help Jackson pull this off?"
Theories, even if plausible, mean nothing unless Michael comes back alive and tells the world that he is not dead.
Post by: ellyd on November 30, 2012, 11:39:49 AM
There's no reason to feel sorry. We did not know everything and yet found out so much.
bec, especially you should not have any withdrawing feelings because you are not afraid to give your reasoning - even if it may not be the perfect answer. We would not have grown this far without your thoughts.
It is so easy to stop talking just because one could step on another person's toes with what one says.
It is what most people prefer because it prevents from any conflict.
You are not that kind of person. You stick out and you are not afraid of it.
All my :smiley_abuv:
Thank you, bec, for being a light.
:bearhug:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 11:40:59 AM
Well if we are supposed to in any way serve as prevention for entrapment by being able to discern the truth from the deception, I at least personally failed MJ in this mission and I'm sorry.
Without TS_comments we never would have figured this out so I'm not sure how this serves as preventing an entrapment defense. He just handed us all the answers on a silver platter and all that training and guidance regarding how to conduct a proper investigation and evaluate a reliable source from an unreliable one, and legitimate information from hearsay/gossip was all for naught.
My brain must work incorrectly. I apologize for trying to make others believe my bullshit.
Aw Come on Bec...no one is a born investigator...we learn as we grow, that's how it should be...TS was gracious enough to help us out through this whole investigation, he was out teacher, a guide...No one is a loser here. We know more about Michael than before...we know more about him each day. And we were blessed enough to be a part of his mission and that itself makes us winners...We won! And Michael will DEFINITELY WIN!
We did prevent Michael from entrapment because even if we never did all this extensive research, we would know by the basic preliminary clues that Michael was alive, and i think that's enough...isn't it?
(u did a harder job than anyone else here, so a big thank u for that <3 )
Post by: Sarahli on November 30, 2012, 11:46:41 AM
Sorry to say this, but........
at the moment I have mixed feelings! I am sad, sort of disappointed from the FBI, and also happy because finally we have all puzzle pieces put together.
I am sad because according to my religious beliefs the guy who died in Michael's house committed suicide. I am sure many would disagree with me, of course. That's why I will not discuss in details why I see it this way. I'm disappointed from the FBI because they chose someone who volunteered for this DWD program. There must have been so many other ways to get a dead body. What about people who are sentenced to death? What about people who already died in accidents, or in hospitals! Getting any corpse form UCLA could have been easier in my opinion and the whole act could have been completely different.
I am not a genius, like Michael to put such a plan. But I'm sure that this DWD thing could have been prevented somehow.
Anyway, the guys is dead. I guess we should all pray for him, as many of you have posted! I just wonder how did his family feel while he was all alone determined to leave our world for good? I wonder how every body in Michael's house felt after seeing this guy dead, after he was talking to them maybe an hour before he died! It must have been a sad scene! Did this guy suffer while dying? Did anyone know how he was feeling while dying? I am sure it was not the case because he had to be left alone! In all the cases I know people prefer to die among their families because they will never see them again.
But again, who cares! His death is legal, no doubt!
Once again, thank you TS for the information given to us. Now we can move on ...........
Blessings
Well Diggy, first I want to say that I understand you and your feelings. You have the right to be upset with the FBI’s decision. What I understand is that it couldn’t have been done with a corpse, it had to be someone who just died and they decided it was the best way to achieve the goals.
Also, this in no way is done to support or condemn this practice. I do not think that this is part of Michael’s message. It was just the FBI who decided it would be done this way (for this part of the hoax). That’s how I see it.
Concerning your belief I share the same but even though I think it maybe wasn’t a good way to leave this planet I cannot judge the person who chose this way of departure. I have seen my grand-father die in front of my eyes, he was in a terrible condition and suffering for several months, so much so that I prayed God to take him back because that was the best thing that could happen (apart from a miracle but it really wasn’t likely to happen). All this to tell you that I would understand that someone chooses such an extreme way to end their sufferings. I prefer to not judge their choice, only God can do that and for all that we know He can have forgiven this person, God is the Most Merciful.
:bearhug:
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 11:50:12 AM
Post by: bec on November 30, 2012, 11:52:50 AM
But here's the problem.
In regards to what we know: I think I know a lot of things. I use the same logic and same common sense methods to evaluate a lot of information, and the same brain that thought it knew what was up with Level 7 is the same brain that I use when I say I (think) I know that MJ is not dead. Same methods, same investigation skills, same access to same information.
You follow?
Doesn't bode well for my ability to discern truth in anything.
Evidence for DWD patient is same evidence for Dead MJ.
Post by: MissG on November 30, 2012, 11:53:08 AM
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 30, 2012, 11:54:07 AM
Post by: Andrea on November 30, 2012, 11:58:15 AM
Well if we are supposed to in any way serve as prevention for entrapment by being able to discern the truth from the deception, I at least personally failed MJ in this mission and I'm sorry.
Without TS_comments we never would have figured this out so I'm not sure how this serves as preventing an entrapment defense. He just handed us all the answers on a silver platter and all that training and guidance regarding how to conduct a proper investigation and evaluate a reliable source from an unreliable one, and legitimate information from hearsay/gossip was all for naught.
My brain must work incorrectly. I apologize for trying to make others believe my bullshit.
I know how you feel! I'm questioning my reasoning skills as well... :errrr: I hope no one felt I was trying to force my opinion on them, I just needed help getting past my objections but I'm working on that.
Despite the completed puzzle there are still missing pieces. I'm going to re-read what TS wrote. Truth will prevail in time. Hopefully the magician will reveal his secrets from that day. I'm going to keep watchin' until that time.
Post by: wishingstar on November 30, 2012, 12:03:45 PM
I don't know why, but something is not sitting right with me. I don't know what it is, but I feel like there's more to the "story".
Sorry TS, you know I have nothing but high regard for you and thank you very much for all you have written...but what's the real deal here? I have a hard time thinking Michael would have plainly "used" a DWD person for his hoax, his adventure, his mind-blowing experience from beyond the grave. I know I shouldn't impose my thoughts about what another may or may not do. However, I see Michael more the smoke-and-mirrors type of guy....pure illusion. If a DWD person was used, there must have been a reason....a really good reason. I just don't see it with all this. I know all the information is here, it's all on that silver platter. Perhaps, I have become too jaded to believe any truth in writing.
Well, it's going to be a long day............my daughter is home sick and life takes over. I am patiently waiting to read/hear/see more. I have
a feeling we will be amazed with what's to come. Michael......you're brilliant, amazing, nerve-racking and fiendishly sly.....I love it : ) Whatever
happens....I'll be here.
Blessings Always
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 12:08:33 PM
There's definitely more to the story. What we know right is , imo, the blue print of the hoax. We needed to know whether he was alive and if he was, how he did the hoax. And whether its convincing or not, TS has said that's how it is done...and as he said we may continue to discuss, but this is what the story is...
Post by: MissG on November 30, 2012, 12:16:40 PM
Quote
#12 The verdict: “Superior court of California Los Angeles County. The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Conrad Robert Murray defendant. Case number SA-073164. Title of court and cause. We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. In violation of penal code section 192 subsection B alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009 as charged in count I of the information.” The charge stated in context is “involuntary manslaughter”—not suicide, or assisted suicide; so even if the DWD patient method was illegal in CA, yet the patient would not be an actual victim of manslaughter (he would be an “alleged victim”). And especially with the FBI sting making the DWD method legal in CA, there is certainly no legal basis for the patient being an actual victim of manslaughter.
Well, I am not familiar with the law in USA and I am translating my opinions from my own mother tounge in to English, so may be I am not translating the terms 100% accurate, but I know that in other countries, "manslaughter"and the consequences of it may be different depending of how it was executed, as well as why.
Let´s say I shoot you and kill you, but before that event took place, you signed a note, a suicide/ will note, explaining "why" I should shoot you and why you are ok with it. That fact would make you (the person I shoot) an "alleged victim" because you are not a victim, you decided when and how to terminate your life.
Post by: marumjj on November 30, 2012, 12:17:05 PM
Well if we are supposed to in any way serve as prevention for entrapment by being able to discern the truth from the deception, I at least personally failed MJ in this mission and I'm sorry.
Without TS_comments we never would have figured this out so I'm not sure how this serves as preventing an entrapment defense. He just handed us all the answers on a silver platter and all that training and guidance regarding how to conduct a proper investigation and evaluate a reliable source from an unreliable one, and legitimate information from hearsay/gossip was all for naught.
My brain must work incorrectly. I apologize for trying to make others believe my bullshit.
Bec, do not feel bad, just defended your opinion with what you had on hand, TS gave us the answers. You did a good job, enjoy it, we now have a more certain of the facts, the horizon is clearer now. We are not here to judge, we just want to know what really happened, gets all my love.
:bearhug:
Post by: Love4Michael on November 30, 2012, 12:21:15 PM
I'm just like everyone else in that my brain feels like it's done a few somersaults in the last couple of days...but I think it's important not to let the fact that this particular milestone has been reached (finally) by us being "given" answers seem like some kind of failure. The only "failure" would have been to remain sleeping like so many others and to not have bothered to TRY. Besides...some here seem to think it unwise to satisfy the appetite from this latest silver platter offering...and I think even TS said continued discussion would likely result.
PS...on preview I just saw your subsequent post and it sounds like you're worried that we've all been wrong all of this time...is that what's going on? If it is I think it's a huge leap to think that we could have been wrong about him still being earthbound just because we couldn't figure out the details of how the illusion was accomplished without being blown. To me that's like saying you're not sure the water in a glass actually exists simply because you couldn't personally witness or replicate the actual chemical combination of the H and the O. Stop being so hard on yourself woman!
Post by: bec on November 30, 2012, 12:23:43 PM
3 years and 5 months of discussion resulted in us knowing nothing at all. The FBI involvement means we do not have access to the truth.
I seriously wonder if he is really dead after all and this has all been just fantasy land because every little bit of "evidence" we have is based on half-truths and partial knowledge. Like we are so much smarter then the rest of the world. Please.
Post by: Thriller4ever on November 30, 2012, 12:27:06 PM
Good night guys... L.O.V.E. ! ;)
Post by: marumjj on November 30, 2012, 12:42:40 PM
Sorry to say this, but........
at the moment I have mixed feelings! I am sad, sort of disappointed from the FBI, and also happy because finally we have all puzzle pieces put together.
I am sad because according to my religious beliefs the guy who died in Michael's house committed suicide. I am sure many would disagree with me, of course. That's why I will not discuss in details why I see it this way. I'm disappointed from the FBI because they chose someone who volunteered for this DWD program. There must have been so many other ways to get a dead body. What about people who are sentenced to death? What about people who already died in accidents, or in hospitals! Getting any corpse form UCLA could have been easier in my opinion and the whole act could have been completely different.
I am not a genius, like Michael to put such a plan. But I'm sure that this DWD thing could have been prevented somehow.
Anyway, the guys is dead. I guess we should all pray for him, as many of you have posted! I just wonder how did his family feel while he was all alone determined to leave our world for good? I wonder how every body in Michael's house felt after seeing this guy dead, after he was talking to them maybe an hour before he died! It must have been a sad scene! Did this guy suffer while dying? Did anyone know how he was feeling while dying? I am sure it was not the case because he had to be left alone! In all the cases I know people prefer to die among their families because they will never see them again.
But again, who cares! His death is legal, no doubt!
Once again, thank you TS for the information given to us. Now we can move on ...........
Blessings
Diggy, as I said in another post, I think this plan must have been very painful for MJ. I think that MJ only take the solution that the FBI offered him up I would say that MJ did not even make contact with the patient DWD. With repect to the patient DWD mean that was his decision, seriously sick person, he just wants to end it, and must have been a time before a desicion, not risk the person repents, sounds bad to say this, and if the patient feels he can help another before leaving, why not do it?. It is an act of love, which in turn shortens their suffering (I say this with real knowledge) often only sick people undergo painful treatments, just for the family, but at some point you just want to end the pain. I understand your questions and I can say that I lived this very closely, and nobody wants to see you love suffer, do not believe you have suffered, the drug probably just put him to sleep. with all my love
Post by: MissG on November 30, 2012, 12:42:54 PM
Remember what LaToya said "watch the movie the illusionist if you want to know the truth". Was she honest or was she just pulling the legs of us"weirdoes"?.
However, to assume, think or play with the idea that an international artist like MJ could have faked his dead - knowing how his life turned during the last 20 years - is not unusual.
He said "they" were after him, he said the word conspiracy. More proof? yeah, he said so and if I would be in his situation, I would contact the authorities and beg for help to save mine and my family´s lives.
About his drug use or capricious ways - as asking for propfol - we got the version of Murray vs Michaels, but one could guess. Most of the people think that he had his private drug dealer, Murray. Others think that Michael was healthy and did not take drugs. What do we really know? Our "investigations" are just speculations and will stay that way for ever and ever.
And to end. Many ended up here because of a gut feeling, not because of investigative skills. We also have our little personal reasons of "why" is easier the feeling that "idol Michael" is still here than in the other hood.
Look at the Elvis is Alive forum! For how many years are people trying to find out what happened to him? or Tupac? or Jim Morrison?
It is "normal" that people would think that Michael "did it", it is attached to being famous.
Post by: marumjj on November 30, 2012, 12:53:10 PM
Not sure what else there is to discuss?
3 years and 5 months of discussion resulted in us knowing nothing at all. The FBI involvement means we do not have access to the truth.
I seriously wonder if he is really dead after all and this has all been just fantasy land because every little bit of "evidence" we have is based on half-truths and partial knowledge. Like we are so much smarter then the rest of the world. Please.
Bec, I am surprised you say this, you imagine a woman brave in thought and with an open mind. Really think we know "everything"? but even when it comes to FBI, Secret Service or any other elite institution. stop beating yourself up.
Post by: mjptd on November 30, 2012, 12:58:50 PM
Post by: Love4Michael on November 30, 2012, 01:11:45 PM
Not sure what else there is to discuss?
3 years and 5 months of discussion resulted in us knowing nothing at all. The FBI involvement means we do not have access to the truth.
I seriously wonder if he is really dead after all and this has all been just fantasy land because every little bit of "evidence" we have is based on half-truths and partial knowledge. Like we are so much smarter then the rest of the world. Please.
Just revisit the emotional state of the family and the children (or rather the lack thereof) over the same 3 1/2 years...especially in the hours/days/weeks immediately following 6/25. If you're right that we've been living in Fantasyland...then they'd have to be the most cold-hearted and ruthless bunch on the planet. I'm pretty sure that nobody here believes that to be the case. The only real, visible sign of emotion has come from Ms. Katherine and I can totally understand. I think she genuinely grieves for Michael...not because he's "gone" but because of the separation and stress...and the safety of those she loves. There's nothing that hurts a Mothers heart more than one of your children being in pain (or in a dangerous situation) and you can't do anything to make it better. :icon_e_sad:
Post by: susieMJ on November 30, 2012, 01:25:29 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on November 30, 2012, 01:32:25 PM
Does everyone on here believe in the DWD theory? I think it STILL can go either way...
...I mean some points for Live MJ and some points for the DWD can be used for the opposite theory. But what I still do not see is how the patient would get into the house undetected, I mean Live MJ guarantees that there is no need for a risk in bringing this patient in. What if the patient chose to back out at the VERY LAST MINUTE while he was in the house? Yeah maybe a second person would do it, but then you'd still need to get the first patient out of the house without arousing suspicion.
Funny enough, I know exactly what you mean UYI. Until I hear it from the 'horse's' mouth, whether that be Mike himself or someone from the FBI, I will not be convinced of any theory 100% (perhaps even after hearing it from the horse's mouth lol). However, once all the dots started connecting for me...the picture became very clear, in my mind, that 'someone' DID die that day. Regardless of whether or not this is, in fact, what happened....ALL signs point to it being true, everything 'fits' when you consider someone actually dying that day...so much so, that I just couldn't see the logic of those that couldn't see it. But, even having said that...perhaps due to my hoax brain...I will still hold open the possibility that something else took place that day. Based on what we do know, though, 'logically' it makes perfect sense...and has so for some time now.
For those suggesting/insinuating that TS gave us all the answers....my response would be that perhaps MANY posts by MANY members were missed along the way. When Level 3 began (and btw, the corpse theory was discussed well before Level 3 AND before TS even mentioned it)....TS didn't support ANY of the options, and the 'corpse' theory was only ONE of 5 possibilities given. Many members researched ALL the options and came up with theories based on the all the info we had (sure, some info from TS but MANY other pieces from MANY other sources)....many of which pointed to/supported the 'corpse' theory. It's ALL there....anyone is free to take a look back to see just how much people thought for themselves and didn't just rely on TS for answers....this should be evident since TS only 'confirmed' the corpse theory very recently. To suggest otherwise, not only undermines the countless hours and energy put in by MANY to try to figure out what happened that day....but it is also something that is highly inaccurate and presumptuous.
Anyone feeling sorry about being 'wrong' or, worse yet, feeling like everything else is now up in the air (which, IMO, makes no sense AT ALL if you can see the logic in the corpse theory...i.e. it proves Mike didn't die)....I'll just say that every contribution was/is valuable, even if not accurate...it drove others to search for the 'truth' and dig a little deeper, even if only to find the evidence to 'debunk' inaccuracies. Not to mention the fact that ALL of this was never about any one person or any one of 'us'....it's primarily been about Mike and whatever/whoever the FBI is investigating. Our role has been as 'observers' invited to observe...and the goal was to become greater than when we began the journey. No matter what our reasoning along the way....right or wrong (and we've all been wrong at different junctures along the way)....we have ALL become greater for the experience.
Still....I'll be waiting for that press conference...or whatever BAM entails lol
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: MJhunny on November 30, 2012, 01:46:04 PM
Someone , think it was wishing star said about not believing mj would "use" a DWD patient like that but TS said even MJ did not know everything about how it would go down so possibly FBI made this decision?
If FBI is truely involved than this surely must rule out any "artistic" reasons for hoax such as outdoing Elvis, or greatest show on earth etc
If FBI is truely involved would we seriously have clues or at least what we categorized as clues?
Lost as always...
Post by: Jos on November 30, 2012, 01:48:48 PM
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 30, 2012, 01:56:31 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on November 30, 2012, 01:57:31 PM
I guess I am the only one happy here, as I said in my long reply here to TS posts, to me there are many things that I understand better now, yet there are still some unclear things! mostly due to the FBI involvement and to the fact that as TS himself said it: not even MJ knows everything that happened "that day"!
So what more do you want? It's very clear! We won't have ALL the answers regarding what exactly happened on June 25th!
So what!??
That doesn't change the fact that Michael is alive and he's gonna BAM sooner or later by January 2013!
Come on guys cheer up!!
We've even had Front & TS acknowledging themselves on this same thread!! With TS blatantly telling us that Front = MJ!!
Isn't that reason enough to PARTY!!?? :penguin: :multiplespotting: :beerchug:
Post by: paula-c on November 30, 2012, 02:02:07 PM
Well if we are supposed to in any way serve as prevention for entrapment by being able to discern the truth from the deception, I at least personally failed MJ in this mission and I'm sorry.
Without TS_comments we never would have figured this out so I'm not sure how this serves as preventing an entrapment defense. He just handed us all the answers on a silver platter and all that training and guidance regarding how to conduct a proper investigation and evaluate a reliable source from an unreliable one, and legitimate information from hearsay/gossip was all for naught.
My brain must work incorrectly. I apologize for trying to make others believe my bullshit.
Do not believe that there is to apologize, no one was in the house of MJ to know exactly what happened, all here we had our theories, hypotheses nothing in reality we could prove.
Post by: paula-c on November 30, 2012, 02:06:32 PM
Post by: Jos on November 30, 2012, 02:08:17 PM
I just simply can't believe you guys are actually depressed and confused :icon_eek: :suspect: :animal0017: WTF!? :animal0017:
[\quote]
+1
Post by: paula-c on November 30, 2012, 02:10:56 PM
Sometimes I think that lately TS play with us ... i am going to lunch ::)
I must apologize to TS by this post :icon_redface:
Post by: SimPattyK on November 30, 2012, 02:20:36 PM
I have a hard time thinking Michael would have plainly "used" a DWD person for his hoax, [...] I see Michael more the smoke-and-mirrors type of guy....pure illusion. If a DWD person was used, there must have been a reason....a really good reason. I just don't see it with all this.The really good reason is that probably it was FBI decision and Michael had NO say in it!
It was either THEIR way or NO way! So he complied! JMO!
And it was also FBI decision to protect Michael by not allowing him to know ALL the details about the "technicality" of "that day"! JMO again!
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 30, 2012, 02:24:32 PM
Also I 100% agree with this post:
Quote from: Loveunited
I just want to say that I feel we all owe the biggest honor to the DWD person who assisted the FBI and Mr Jackson in this endeavor. As the criminal element of the sting becomes revealed, I am sure that the part this person played in donating their death to this cause. I believe BAM celebration should be an honorarium to this individual. God Bless.
God Bless him.
Post by: mjptd on November 30, 2012, 02:29:14 PM
many people through their way of life and its usual conduct parameters reflect its belief that this life is all there is. If the disease brings to the life of a human being pain unbearable, if living becomes unbearable and miserable, if appears old age with a costly weight and meaningless, and this life is all there is, you need to escape. Many say that they have the right to leave through the medium they create more lawful. They are based on the principle that is well what humans choose freely, explain its decision on unrestricted autonomy. The goodness of the acts is the result of the free choice of every human being.
[
quote] I'm not saying that I'a against the death sweet, anything. I do not see Michael to use the suicide of anoyher human being as a way out or for artistic purposes or for any other purpose. I think it's immoral.
Post by: emulik on November 30, 2012, 02:34:43 PM
I just simply can't believe you guys are actually depressed and confused :icon_eek: :suspect: :animal0017: WTF!? :animal0017:you said/wrote it right Sim, there is no reason to be sad, confused or in depression. It is not over yet! we are not in the end of hoax tunnel, some time still lefts..please be patient and we will see the result of Michael`s master plan.
I guess I am the only one happy here, as I said in my long reply here to TS posts, to me there are many things that I understand better now, yet there are still some unclear things! mostly due to the FBI involvement and to the fact that as TS himself said it: not even MJ knows everything that happened "that day"!
So what more do you want? It's very clear! We won't have ALL the answers regarding what exactly happened on June 25th!
So what!??
That doesn't change the fact that Michael is alive and he's gonna BAM sooner or later by January 2013!
Come on guys cheer up!!
We've even had Front & TS acknowledging themselves on this same thread!! With TS blatantly telling us that Front = MJ!!
Isn't that reason enough to PARTY!!?? :penguin: :multiplespotting: :beerchug:
Post by: SimPattyK on November 30, 2012, 02:41:05 PM
Whether we like or not that reality!
And IMO, the reality is this:
- A DWD patient was indeed involved (GOD bless his soul!)
- FBI had the major say in this!
- The whole thing is perfectly covered up with a lot of info that will remain classified long time after!
- Michael had little to say in the sting operation, but he was left full authority regarding most part of the hoax (memorial, funeral, TII, Murray trial & all the the adjacent hoaxy artistic activities)
- we can't possibly ever have the answers to all our questions about this elaborated PLAN that started years ago and involved Government officials!
- those who expected to know everything and those who are disappointed in the use of a DWD patient, have 2 options: deal with it and accept the situation OR continue to whine about it.
Post by: jono on November 30, 2012, 02:55:21 PM
You guys are all very sweet, as always, supportive, I thank you.
But here's the problem.
In regards to what we know: I think I know a lot of things. I use the same logic and same common sense methods to evaluate a lot of information, and the same brain that thought it knew what was up with Level 7 is the same brain that I use when I say I (think) I know that MJ is not dead. Same methods, same investigation skills, same access to same information.
You follow?
Doesn't bode well for my ability to discern truth in anything.
Evidence for DWD patient is same evidence for Dead MJ.
Hey bec, don’t be so quick now! Remember.. MJ is a prankster! He is not going to give away all the answers just like that…
I am sure he wants to play us a little bit as well!
Some surprises saved for BAMsday (and after) I am sure… :D
Post by: mindseye on November 30, 2012, 03:35:08 PM
Come on guys cheer up!!
We've even had Front & TS acknowledging themselves on this same thread!! With TS blatantly telling us that Front = MJ!!
Isn't that reason enough to PARTY!!?? :penguin: :multiplespotting: :beerchug:
Exactly!
... Not to mention the fact that ALL of this was never about any one person or any one of 'us'....it's primarily been about Mike and whatever/whoever the FBI is investigating. Our role has been as 'observers' invited to observe...and the goal was to become greater than when we began the journey. No matter what our reasoning along the way....right or wrong (and we've all been wrong at different junctures along the way)....we have ALL become greater for the experience.
Yes! I believe there is so much more to the story, perhaps we'll never know some things, especially with FBI involvement...or if they're trying to catch a whole string of 'gangsters'. Whatever the case - it's about money, injustice, media manipulation... 'they' are all in it together.
And as he stated in TII 'It's an adventure, it's a great adventure' :Michael_Jackson_dancing_smile
It's been an amazing journey. I've had doubts along the way, but something in me says... hang in there. :icon_e_biggrin:
Hey bec, don’t be so quick now! Remember.. MJ is a prankster! He is not going to give away all the answers just like that…
I am sure he wants to play us a little bit as well!
Some surprises saved for BAMsday (and after) I am sure… :D
It's all for LOVE he said. And for justice.
I agree, a Thriller is full of suspense, twists and turns. Expect the unexpected... all can do now is wait and watch.
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 30, 2012, 03:36:38 PM
:icon_albino:
Post by: SimPattyK on November 30, 2012, 03:45:50 PM
IMO, nothings changed just because we are still waiting for TS to respond.We shouldn't wait for TS to respond anymore. He clearly said that he would rarely if never write here until the BAM!
And I think he has already given us everything that he COULD give us in terms of explanations and clues!
We should rather wait/focus on the BAM now and hopefully, we'll have some more "after-BAM" explanations! if there will be any! Because there's definitely MORE to find out, but who knows if we'll ever find out more than we were allowed so far!
I also hope...that TS & Front will continue to post now and then...even if it's ONLY to "drop" some more "mini-BAMs", like TS did today :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Just be patient and we'll see what happens. "Keep the Faith", "Keep Your Head Up".:bearhug:
Post by: curls on November 30, 2012, 03:53:53 PM
Having said that, he's always said for us not to blindly believe him, because he doesn't know, MJ doesn't know, FBI are the only ones who know - so what chance have we got then - seriously?
I feel for you bec, but TS has always shown great respect for you and your analytical thinking - I'm sure he wasn't tricking you or trying to show you up. :bearhug:
Post by: finfin on November 30, 2012, 04:22:24 PM
Sorry to say this, but........
at the moment I have mixed feelings! I am sad, sort of disappointed from the FBI, and also happy because finally we have all puzzle pieces put together.
I am sad because according to my religious beliefs the guy who died in Michael's house committed suicide. I am sure many would disagree with me, of course. That's why I will not discuss in details why I see it this way. I'm disappointed from the FBI because they chose someone who volunteered for this DWD program. There must have been so many other ways to get a dead body. What about people who are sentenced to death? What about people who already died in accidents, or in hospitals! Getting any corpse form UCLA could have been easier in my opinion and the whole act could have been completely different.
I am not a genius, like Michael to put such a plan. But I'm sure that this DWD thing could have been prevented somehow.
Anyway, the guys is dead. I guess we should all pray for him, as many of you have posted! I just wonder how did his family feel while he was all alone determined to leave our world for good? I wonder how every body in Michael's house felt after seeing this guy dead, after he was talking to them maybe an hour before he died! It must have been a sad scene! Did this guy suffer while dying? Did anyone know how he was feeling while dying? I am sure it was not the case because he had to be left alone! In all the cases I know people prefer to die among their families because they will never see them again.
But again, who cares! His death is legal, no doubt!
Once again, thank you TS for the information given to us. Now we can move on ...........
Blessings
I can empathise with you @diggyon and tbh I don't feel good about this - it doesn't feel right. Also where are the children in this situation? I can't see Michael involving them in this scenario - very sorry
Post by: JesusLover05 on November 30, 2012, 04:47:02 PM
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on November 30, 2012, 04:57:13 PM
Yes may God bless this person’s soul.
Thank you TS and bravo. Finally the puzzle picture is complete. :woohoo2: :smiley_abuv:
I bet Front will give you an “N” for Neat or should I write _eat , we’ve been given food on a silver platter after all so I guess that fits perfectly. :icon_lol:
(http://www2.parmacityschools.org/staff/f/fratoem/images/image-of-A-paper.jpg)
:thjajaja121: nice one sarahli !!!
+1
May this person rest in peace, respect.
Thank you TS, for explaining and showing us the completed puzzle. Indeed _eat food for thoughts.
LOVE & faith
Post by: hesouttamylife on November 30, 2012, 05:04:30 PM
(http://letsrollforums.com/images/smilies/gamblers.gif)
Post by: RK on November 30, 2012, 05:43:17 PM
Love and Blessings to you and yours my brother.
Post by: ashprak247 on November 30, 2012, 05:56:07 PM
Like TS said he won't post now but will AFTER bam.
Thank you TS for the journey and adventure. What a great adventure as Michael said.
Now is the time for patience for Michael to return before the 1st January 2013.
Patience is a virtue.
Post by: paula-c on November 30, 2012, 05:58:48 PM
many people through their way of life and its usual conduct parameters reflect its belief that this life is all there is. If the disease brings to the life of a human being pain unbearable, if living becomes unbearable and miserable, if appears old age with a costly weight and meaningless, and this life is all there is, you need to escape. Many say that they have the right to leave through the medium they create more lawful. They are based on the principle that is well what humans choose freely, explain its decision on unrestricted autonomy. The goodness of the acts is the result of the free choice of every human being.
[
quote] I'm not saying that I'a against the death sweet, anything. I do not see Michael to use the suicide of anoyher human being as a way out or for artistic purposes or for any other purpose. I think it's immoral.
In these cases the decision to die is the person who is sick, I do not believe that all this was done with artistic purposes , and I do not know what MJ is capable of doing or not why I dont know him personally.
Post by: bec on November 30, 2012, 06:10:21 PM
But let it be a lesson to me that negative thoughts do not serve the self well as I went to work today like any other but feeling very down in the dumps and had a horse fall on me and now my foot is terribly injured. I have no health insurance and so cannot afford to see a doctor so I better change my attitude and hope it heals naturally. God Bless America.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 30, 2012, 06:39:37 PM
When TS starts out by saying he'' debunk " stuff proved just to keep us on our toes , then we can't end up depressed can we? He's basically telling us again not to believe everything he says right?
Someone , think it was wishing star said about not believing mj would "use" a DWD patient like that but TS said even MJ did not know everything about how it would go down so possibly FBI made this decision?
If FBI is truely involved than this surely must rule out any "artistic" reasons for hoax such as outdoing Elvis, or greatest show on earth etc
If FBI is truely involved would we seriously have clues or at least what we categorized as clues?
Lost as always...
That's what I think too, you are right TS said (if my memory serves me right) that Michael only decided the date and the time the rest was just FBI's issues so we can't blame it on Michael.
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 30, 2012, 06:46:59 PM
The family has told us more than once that MJ was afraid for his life..
So what has changed in the last 3+ years???
Have the FBI apprehended any one yet??
Is there a pending investigation still ongoing?? Is it the estate that are fraudsters or is there something more going on that we do not know about??
All these cases must be closed before a safe BAM could happen...and as far as I can read and see, nothing has been achieved yet...
So I don't think a BAM is in the making this year.. Just my honest opinion. God bless to all.
PS. The house may have been rented for the DWD patient and MJ just used it as a decoy. CM could have ordered the drug that killed the patient as many alias were used.....
I will refer to the DWD patient as Soule Shaun
Post by: Dontwalkaway on November 30, 2012, 06:50:02 PM
Thanks TS for explaining. Thank you for all your hard work during these years.
Love You :moonwalk_:
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on November 30, 2012, 06:53:49 PM
I just simply can't believe you guys are actually depressed and confused :icon_eek: :suspect: :animal0017: WTF!? :animal0017:
I guess I am the only one happy here, as I said in my long reply here to TS posts, to me there are many things that I understand better now, yet there are still some unclear things! mostly due to the FBI involvement and to the fact that as TS himself said it: not even MJ knows everything that happened "that day"!
So what more do you want? It's very clear! We won't have ALL the answers regarding what exactly happened on June 25th!
So what!??
That doesn't change the fact that Michael is alive and he's gonna BAM sooner or later by January 2013!
Come on guys cheer up!!
We've even had Front & TS acknowledging themselves on this same thread!! With TS blatantly telling us that Front = MJ!!
Isn't that reason enough to PARTY!!?? :penguin: :multiplespotting: :beerchug:
You have just put my thoughts on your post :th_bravo: today is being one of the happiest days in my life and I don't have the feeling for a second that Bec or any of us have failed in our investigations you know why? it's very easy because the most important thing is that Michael is alive and well and how he pulled this hoax off is another story that sooner or later we will get to know although not with all details because I really want Michael to clear his name and I am very happy for him furthermore I am freaking out after knowing he has been posting here in between us and have been one more member of this forum although a VIP member :icon_lol:
Post by: Andrea on November 30, 2012, 06:55:51 PM
Sorry to hear about your foot bec, that really sucks. Do what you can, a positive attitude will definitely help. Don't forget what happened before TS started posting his counter-arguments that resulted in me swearing and you choking.
There has been a lot of dualism within this hoax and so dueling theories of that day seems appropriate. Or a hoax within a hoax-type scenario. The argument could go back and forth almost endlessly with the information we have now.
TS:
Quote
If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.
Oooh I've got far-fetched explanations. :icon_lol:
Post by: paula-c on November 30, 2012, 06:59:06 PM
Well I guess it couldn't have gone any other way, really, what other response from TS could I realistically expect?
But let it be a lesson to me that negative thoughts do not serve the self well as I went to work today like any other but feeling very down in the dumps and had a horse fall on me and now my foot is terribly injured. I have no health insurance and so cannot afford to see a doctor so I better change my attitude and hope it heals naturally. God Bless America.
I'm sorry bec, take care i hope you feel better soon
Post by: mjj4ever777 on November 30, 2012, 07:21:52 PM
Well I guess it couldn't have gone any other way, really, what other response from TS could I realistically expect?
But let it be a lesson to me that negative thoughts do not serve the self well as I went to work today like any other but feeling very down in the dumps and had a horse fall on me and now my foot is terribly injured. I have no health insurance and so cannot afford to see a doctor so I better change my attitude and hope it heals naturally. God Bless America.
Here is a great big Hug for you Bec!~! :bearhug: Try not to dwell on any negativity as it will only "grow" if you continue to "feed" it. I am sending you some Healing energy and Prayers Bec. I know we haven't really gotten to know each other here much, but I want you to know that you are LOVED and appreciated!
Keep The Faith sister!! I LOVE you...Better times are coming, don't give up now!!! That goes for everyone!! Hugs and LOVE for all!
:bearhug:
There is sooooooooo much more to be revealed...the TRUTH WILL set us ALL free, but it will be up to "US" to do the "Internal" work needed to really "free" ourselves from our "Historical enslavement." We need to open our eyes, and our Hearts to each other and help each other to see the "TRUTH" that Michael has been trying to reveal to us. The "dots" are all there waiting to be found, and once you find them, it's like BAM, everything just starts to fall into place!
I will never stop Believing that LOVE and L.O.V.E (Law Of Vibrational Energy, or Look Observe, Verify, Evolve) are what we need to be focusing on now, but that is just my opinion. I came here 3,5 yrs ago, knowing that my only connection to Michael was the fact that we BOTH are extremely strong Believers in the power of LOVE, and that we are born 1 day apart, so "astrologically" we have very similar "traits"...Coincidence...well I use to think so, but after this journey, I now know that somehow, someway, Michael called me to this site many moons ago, because he knew I would take a different approach to this "hoax/mission etc" then most, and well, he was right!! I am not sad, mad, or anything negative at this point in the mission and I don't need Michael to Bam physically for me to Believe anything that he has already taught me. On the contrary...I have never felt more, at peace within and I have never been this sure of who I am and what my "purpose" here on earth is and when I look in the mirror now, I see the "real" me smiling back!!
I spent many, many, many years caught up in all the BS and negativity, Believing whatever was spoon fed to me, but not anymore!! Michael and this Hoax/mission, has given me so much HOPE for a future that will bring Humanity, LOVE and Compassion back to the human race, but we will all need to work on ourselves in order for this to happen!
To me, this journey isn't about HOW Michael pulled this off, but WHY???!!! I think that there will be many many of our very own MJ Family here that will be totally shocked, when they finally realize just how massive of an undertaking this has been. This is truly going to effect the whole world...an AWAKENING of the masses on a Global scale!! this is when the "Army of LOVE" will truly be put to the "test", and when all is revealed, EVERYTHING will change, because there will be no going back to the "old" ways of thinking!!
I could be totally wrong and this is of course is just my opinion, and I am in no way downplaying any of our investigations of the last 3.5 yrs...Michael has helped us to "hone" our skills for further use, when ALL is revealed!! I still Believe that the BIGGEST Bombshell is yet to come, but if for some reason I am wrong, well hey, I am still a much better human, and a much Happier and Positive human today, then I was 3.5 yrs ago! So I have already reaped my reward. so to speak!
Sorry family, I had actually only planned on giving Bec a hug, but I got a little carried away...please forgive me for that!! :LolLolLolLol:
Anyway...I LOVE you all so very much, and I hope that everyone stays positive!! It's not over yet...the best is yet to come!! :bearhug:
Happy 30th Anniversary Michael...this certainly has been a "real life Thriller", and I am honored to have been a part of this journey! I will be forever grateful for your LOVE and Guidance, my Beautiful Brother in LOVE!! My LOVE to the family too!!! "Thank you" BIG HUG for you!!
:bearhug:
The answers are written in The Sun and The Stars, and The Signs, are everywhere!!! It's all for L.O.V.E!
Blessings!
Post by: mindseye on November 30, 2012, 07:33:34 PM
Quote
For the record, I’m not saying that a dummy was never used during the hoax; for example, La Toya perfectly described a dummy in the casket, that continued for weeks just as good as new! :suspect: :animal0017: :suspect: :icon_lol: So we have to be careful not to apply clues to the wrong time or event.
I thought a dummy could have been used as well, but makes sense only after or different time/place. :icon_albino:
TS
Quote
#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com (http://www.hushmail.com)}.
burial date typo TS :icon_geek:
And also Dave Dave on Larry King.
Probably been discussed many times elsewhere, but I always wondered about the guy sitting behind mr. hat man at the (9-3-09) burial.... thought the guy behind him looked familiar. FBI? or actor idk but he's watching him. :suspect:
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/watchaia.jpg)
2:32
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A-h8EVzbzs[/youtube]
Bec take care of yourself, I wish you a quick recovery. sending positive energy your way! :icon_e_biggrin:
Post by: Love4Michael on November 30, 2012, 07:50:15 PM
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 30, 2012, 07:59:46 PM
Post by: 2good2btrue on November 30, 2012, 08:02:36 PM
In Australia, we can seek medical treatment immediately without paying a cent. We have Bulk Billing and Medicare system, which we just pay a levy for at tax time..and this depends on your income.
What's up with USA?? How many injured people die due to untreated injuries?? That makes me sad :icon_e_sad:
God Bless America and Bec... :icon_e_sad: :icon_e_sad: :icon_e_sad: :icon_e_sad: :icon_e_wink:
This is for you Bec....MJ ...An Officer and a gentlemen...
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/public/album_photo/be/28/2896_4ffb.jpg?c=f5a2)
Post by: use_your_illusion on November 30, 2012, 08:05:47 PM
I'm going to add to what Sim said and say that I find it naive that it was ever thought we would get the answers to what really happened that day. Even if what TS says was true, do you really think he would hand us all the information and evidence? Think about it, if the FBI is involved and 'if' there is some kind of investigation going on, why would we be the ones to get all the info? Also it isn't only us reading here, if we got the info of what happened that day you can guarantee that those who are on the other side of the fence know it to and wont just sit on info. This board isn't just exclusive to us you know, anyone can be reading here.
Having said all that, some of us were expecting more and we didn't get what we wanted and there is nothing wrong with that unless we let disappointments get to us and allow negativity to seep in. I'm not telling anyone to be all positive and to keep up your morale, because that stuff about thinking positive all the time, doesn't help in the slightest, sometimes its false sense of security, and doesn't allow you to think realistically.
Now I hate to be a downer, but if we can have our expectations this high and get all down because we didn't get what we expected, then the BAM to me would just be a curse. I'm not saying I know what the BAM will entail but I am not going to expect anything. I mean look at the reaction to the end of Lvl 7, or the fact that the FBI might be involved, who's to say they don't have control over how MJ comes back? Who's to say the FBI won't announce it themselves and we will never see MJ again? I know TS said something about a physical BAM but people can just give you what you want to hear because that's what they think you need. Not saying for sure that TS is misleading us in that respect, because I think TS' intentions are good, ARG aside.
BAM could go either way, the way we expect it or the way we don't, so we shouldn't have a definite set of expectations, although again nothing wrong with that, but if we expect that we will be disappointed if the outcome is not our own then we might not want to write our expectations in stone, but the sand.
I mean if you expect everything, you'll get disappointed by anything.
Post by: Adi on November 30, 2012, 08:28:17 PM
...............
For those suggesting/insinuating that TS gave us all the answers....my response would be that perhaps MANY posts by MANY members were missed along the way. When Level 3 began (and btw, the corpse theory was discussed well before Level 3 AND before TS even mentioned it)....TS didn't support ANY of the options, and the 'corpse' theory was only ONE of 5 possibilities given. Many members researched ALL the options and came up with theories based on the all the info we had (sure, some info from TS but MANY other pieces from MANY other sources)....many of which pointed to/supported the 'corpse' theory. It's ALL there....anyone is free to take a look back to see just how much people thought for themselves and didn't just rely on TS for answers....this should be evident since TS only 'confirmed' the corpse theory very recently. To suggest otherwise, not only undermines the countless hours and energy put in by MANY to try to figure out what happened that day....but it is also something that is highly inaccurate and presumptuous.
Anyone feeling sorry about being 'wrong' or, worse yet, feeling like everything else is now up in the air (which, IMO, makes no sense AT ALL if you can see the logic in the corpse theory...i.e. it proves Mike didn't die)....I'll just say that every contribution was/is valuable, even if not accurate...it drove others to search for the 'truth' and dig a little deeper, even if only to find the evidence to 'debunk' inaccuracies. Not to mention the fact that ALL of this was never about any one person or any one of 'us'....it's primarily been about Mike and whatever/whoever the FBI is investigating. Our role has been as 'observers' invited to observe...and the goal was to become greater than when we began the journey. No matter what our reasoning along the way....right or wrong (and we've all been wrong at different junctures along the way)....we have ALL become greater for the experience.
Still....I'll be waiting for that press conference...or whatever BAM entails lol
With L.O.V.E. always.
:smiley_abuv: I agree BTC.
Personally I feel relieved we have some firm information. Plus I feel really excited about what is to come. Still, I guess not everyone here is going to accept it or believe it and that is their choice. TS only said he may (not will) play Devils' Advocate....
I also wonder how the BAM will go down..as in how it will happen. I have no idea what to expect. We still have quite a few weeks remaining of this year with still significant dates to come...like I out lined in my post below...so I'm gonna keep watchin':
So there are definitely some interesting dates approaching that I thought would be fun to note here, starting with this week:11/22/12 - Thanksgiving and Spike Lee's BAD documentary being aired on prime time TV in the USdone11/30/12 - 30th Anniversary of release of Thriller albumdone (almost lol)
12/6/12 - 1260 days from 6/25/09 (as per Sign #6 discussion)
12/12/12 - 7 days from 12/6 and also just because it's a cool date and the last time we will have such a date for a very long time (TS also referred to this date in a post a while back - I need to locate it)
12/21/12 - we are all pretty familiar with this date and it's relevance to the hoax
12/25/12 - Christmas (wreaths on Carolwood gates)
12/31/12 - New Years Eve and according to TS, MJ will BAM by this date (up to & including the date).
So starting from this week these dates fall pretty much within a week of each other (give or take a few days here and there) which I think is pretty neat....and I've just realised it's 7 weeks starting with this week. So for the next 7 weeks there is an interesting date each week. :icon_mrgreen:
Not sure TS will answer - but I am still wondering why he listed the date of the burial as August 3rd 2009 (8-3-09) not September 3rd 2009 (9-3-09) which is when we were led to believe it occurred and was beamed around the world :suspect:
Quote
#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
ohhh....and as for the sting element - I hope we find out what it is. I have a few ideas but will keep them to myself.
Post by: bec on November 30, 2012, 08:40:50 PM
For those suggesting/insinuating that TS gave us all the answers....my response would be that perhaps MANY posts by MANY members were missed along the way.
Yes you are right, BTC. I am glad you brought this up. Please forgive me for being short sighted.
Now I hate to be a downer, but if we can have our expectations this high and get all down because we didn't get what we expected, then the BAM to me would just be a curse. I'm not saying I know what the BAM will entail but I am not going to expect anything. I mean look at the reaction to the end of Lvl 7, or the fact that the FBI might be involved, who's to say they don't have control over how MJ comes back? Who's to say the FBI won't announce it themselves and we will never see MJ again? I know TS said something about a physical BAM but people can just give you what you want to hear because that's what they think you need. Not saying for sure that TS is misleading us in that respect, because I think TS' intentions are good, ARG aside.
BAM could go either way, the way we expect it or the way we don't, so we shouldn't have a definite set of expectations, although again nothing wrong with that, but if we expect that we will be disappointed if the outcome is not our own then we might not want to write our expectations in stone, but the sand.
I mean if you expect everything, you'll get disappointed by anything.
Yes, UYI, you are right as well. I am telling myself I need to be prepared for nothing at all to happen and for our questions to remain forever unanswered, because this is a very real possibility.
Post by: Andrea on November 30, 2012, 08:49:05 PM
Not sure TS will answer - but I am still wondering why he listed the date of the burial as August 3rd 2009 (8-3-09) not September 3rd 2009 (9-3-09) which is when we were led to believe it occurred and was beamed around the world :suspect:Quote#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
Typo or intentional typo of the date? A TMZ article from that date 8-3-09 says Katherine spoke out for the first time about her son's 'death' to Geraldo saying "My son is dead and I don't think he just died of natural causes. He's too young. Something happened."
http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/katherine-jackson-michael-jackson-geraldo-natural-causes/
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4DkzqyeV9Q[/youtube]
Post by: GodhaschosenMJ on November 30, 2012, 08:51:29 PM
Front posting here is WOW!! Great! :th_bravo:
TS gave us alot to consider and I think it makes sense!
@Bec when I was reading this morning your post of gloom, I got tears in my eyes feeling for you so! And now I read you got hurt by a horse also! Ouch! :screaming-7365: Hang in there, prayers and blessings to you in Jesus's name.
So only three weeks to go, I'm so excited! :abouttime: :multiplespotting:
I have a very special wish for Christmas time, and that is that I could be with TS when BAM happens!! :icon_e_wink:
Post by: bec on November 30, 2012, 09:27:15 PM
@GodhaschosenMJ, glad you were able to get back online.
You know, Ps. TS_comments said at the beginning of the week or so that if both DWD patients backed out at the last minute they could just use a dummy as a back up plan. I asked him if that's so, why wouldn't they just use a dummy in the first place? That post probably got lost in all the pages since then so I don't blame him for missing it.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on November 30, 2012, 10:12:00 PM
Post by: Adi on November 30, 2012, 10:38:24 PM
Post by: voiceforthesilent on November 30, 2012, 10:59:15 PM
TS - thanks for showing up :) unfortunately I will still need to "keep watchin' " because I just don't believe the DWD theory. But I'm used to being on the other end of the spectrum so obviously if you are MJ,you and I think totally different. But that's what makes this all interesting, right? I have several pages to read yet but it looks like I'm in the minority.
By the way, what has happened to Souza? No comment at all about all of this?
Blessings
Post by: pepper on November 30, 2012, 11:00:02 PM
Not sure TS will answer - but I am still wondering why he listed the date of the burial as August 3rd 2009 (8-3-09) not September 3rd 2009 (9-3-09) which is when we were led to believe it occurred and was beamed around the world :suspect:Quote#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
Typo or intentional typo of the date? A TMZ article from that date 8-3-09 says Katherine spoke out for the first time about her son's 'death' to Geraldo saying "My son is dead and I don't think he just died of natural causes. He's too young. Something happened."
http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/katherine-jackson-michael-jackson-geraldo-natural-causes/
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4DkzqyeV9Q[/youtube]
Does anyone remember? Wasn't it shortly after this "phone call from Katherine" that Geraldo removed almost everything concerning "Michael Jackson" from his website and and didn't even talk about "Michael Jackson" for quite a while?
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,9416.25.html
Post by: SimPattyK on November 30, 2012, 11:22:35 PM
@BTC hahaha its nice to read your posts they are very intellectually written and funny and the same time, so thanks.
I'm going to add to what Sim said and say that I find it naive that it was ever thought we would get the answers to what really happened that day. Even if what TS says was true, do you really think he would hand us all the information and evidence? Think about it, if the FBI is involved and 'if' there is some kind of investigation going on, why would we be the ones to get all the info? Also it isn't only us reading here, if we got the info of what happened that day you can guarantee that those who are on the other side of the fence know it to and wont just sit on info. This board isn't just exclusive to us you know, anyone can be reading here.
Having said all that, some of us were expecting more and we didn't get what we wanted and there is nothing wrong with that unless we let disappointments get to us and allow negativity to seep in. I'm not telling anyone to be all positive and to keep up your morale, because that stuff about thinking positive all the time, doesn't help in the slightest, sometimes its false sense of security, and doesn't allow you to think realistically.
Now I hate to be a downer, but if we can have our expectations this high and get all down because we didn't get what we expected, then the BAM to me would just be a curse. I'm not saying I know what the BAM will entail but I am not going to expect anything. I mean look at the reaction to the end of Lvl 7, or the fact that the FBI might be involved, who's to say they don't have control over how MJ comes back? Who's to say the FBI won't announce it themselves and we will never see MJ again? I know TS said something about a physical BAM but people can just give you what you want to hear because that's what they think you need. Not saying for sure that TS is misleading us in that respect, because I think TS' intentions are good, ARG aside.
BAM could go either way, the way we expect it or the way we don't, so we shouldn't have a definite set of expectations, although again nothing wrong with that, but if we expect that we will be disappointed if the outcome is not our own then we might not want to write our expectations in stone, but the sand.
I mean if you expect everything, you'll get disappointed by anything.
E_X_C_E_L_L_E_N_T !!!!!!!!!
@UYI: stop reading my mind!! :icon_geek:
Post by: Loveunited on November 30, 2012, 11:30:21 PM
Paris Jacksoη@ParisJackson
december—a month of lights , snow & feasts;; time to make amends & tie loose ends;; finish off what you started & hope your wishes come true
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Okay, get ready. amends and loose ends! :bearhug:
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Post by: use_your_illusion on December 01, 2012, 12:17:40 AM
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 12:19:04 AM
@Sim, yeah I stole it from you...I intercepted it before you could post it, then just added my name to it....lolMischievous thief you! :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Post by: ellyd on December 01, 2012, 12:36:09 AM
Not sure TS will answer - but I am still wondering why he listed the date of the burial as August 3rd 2009 (8-3-09) not September 3rd 2009 (9-3-09) which is when we were led to believe it occurred and was beamed around the world :suspect:Quote#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
Typo or intentional typo of the date? A TMZ article from that date 8-3-09 says Katherine spoke out for the first time about her son's 'death' to Geraldo saying "My son is dead and I don't think he just died of natural causes. He's too young. Something happened."
http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/03/katherine-jackson-michael-jackson-geraldo-natural-causes/
Yes, we don't know everything. It may go waaaaaay deeper than we think right now.
If the DWD participant was adopted, Katherine may be his mom and he may be her son legally and she is absolutely right talking about her son.
If the DWD participant changed his name to MJosephJ, he might have been a target as a placeholder for MJ.
I am not looking at emotions here or whether anybody would agree or be fine with that scenario on an emotional level.
We still don't know the target and the initial reason for setting this undertaking up.
Criminals are not emotional - in our understanding - either.
For all those being sad and down because there was a corpse involved, let me try to comfort you with my thoughts.
The corpse was certainly not MJ's idea.
If you go for a financial crime e.g., a corpse is not needed. You could declare MJ dead after a plane crash over the Pacific Ocean - nobody knowing about any corpse - and go chase the criminals then. Case closed.
The need for a corpse and physical appearance of a human body indicates that there was a reason and direction of the sting that required a corpse. That makes physical safety for MJ a primary focus and explains why a DWD participant HAD to step in. Furthermore, it was required to have a "freshly" died corpse at hand. Otherwise an undeclared, unclaimed corpse from the coroner could have served the agencies purposes as well.
I still do not exclude organ trafficking, skin transplant supply or other unregulated and uncontrolled "medical" industry supply from hospitals to pharma companies in general could be a target of the sting. There were enough scandals about this profitable "sell what was donated" business. The choice of propofol as an "uncontrolled" substance could point into this direction.
Where the link to MJ in person in this is, is out of reach for my brains, still.
The only link I can think of is that of drugging people up / sedating them for third party purposes like in the Chandler case.
That's why I am curious about the target and criminal background - both need to be brought somehow to the world via news or else MJ's reputation cannot be cleared after Bam.
So I am patiently waiting for the news.
Add:
the fact that we have been given the information TS did provide indicates to me that the criminal case investigations "out there" have been finished and that the essential knowledge the investigation was executed for, is "in the house".
This means there is no risk anymore in giving the use of a corpse and MJ being alive to the world (the latter again confirmed).
So I am joining the positive and relieved team knowing most of what was in the sizzeling was accomplished and get myself walking over to a peaceful
:multiplespotting:
We know ahead of the majority of the planet and that's a miracle in itself, isn't it?
Blessings to all.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 12:45:16 AM
Yes, we don't know everything. It may go waaaaaay deeper than we think right now.
If the DWD participant was adopted, Katherine may be his mom and he may be her son legally and she is absolutely right talking about her son.
If the DWD participant changed his name to MJosephJ, he might have been a target as a placeholder for MJ.
I am not looking at emotions here or whether anybody would agree or be fine with that scenario on an emotional level.
We still don't know the target and the initial reason for setting this undertaking up.
Criminals are not emotional - in our understanding - either.
For all those being sad and down because there was a corpse involved, let me try to comfort you with my thoughts.
The corpse was certainly not MJ's idea.
If you go for a financial crime e.g., a corpse is not needed.
You could declare MJ dead after a plane crash over the Pacific Ocean - nobody knowing about any corpse - and go chase the criminals then. Case closed.
The need for a corpse and physical appearance of a human body indicates that there was a reason and direction of the sting that required a corpse. That makes physical safety for MJ a primary focus and explains why a DWD participant HAD to step in. Furthermore, it was required to have a "freshly" died corpse at hand. Otherwise an undeclared, unclaimed corpse from the coroner could have served the agencies purposes as well.
I still do not exclude organ trafficking, skin transplant supply or other unregulated and uncontrolled "medical" industry supply from hospitals to pharma companies in general could be a target of the sting. There were enough scandals about this profitable "sell what was donated" business. The choice of propofol as an "uncontrolled" substance could point into this direction.
Where the link to MJ in person in this is, is out of reach for my brains, still.
The only link I can think of is that of drugging people up / sedating them for third party purposes like in the Chandler case.
That's why I am curious about the target and criminal background - both need to be brought somehow to the world via news or else MJ's reputation cannot be cleared after Bam.
So I am patiently waiting for the news.
AMAZING post @ellyd !! :th_bravo: GOOD points you've made!!! (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/respect-chapeau.gif)
I agree 100% !!
I only need to say this regarding this statement you made: "The corpse was certainly not MJ's idea."
We cannot know with CERTAINTY if it was Michael's idea or not!
I can only suspect the fact that it was an FBI decision! because TS said it clear: FBI had the PRIMARY say in what happened on June 25th!
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 12:55:15 AM
Add:
the fact that we have been given the information TS did provide indicates to me that the criminal case investigations "out there" have been finished and that the essential knowledge the investigation was executed for, is "in the house".
This means there is no risk anymore in giving the use of a corpse and MJ being alive to the world (the latter again confirmed).
So I am joining the positive and relieved team knowing most of what was in the sizzeling was accomplished and get myself walking over to a peaceful :multiplespotting:
We know ahead of the majority of the planet and that's a miracle in itself, isn't it?
Blessings to all.
You're GREAT!!!
Love you Grace!! :bearhug:
Post by: emulik on December 01, 2012, 02:47:35 AM
in my country doctors give treatment and care for everyone, for homeless people also. People pay small amount of money every month for insurance and system is quite working..I hope things will change in US and everyone who needs medical care, gets it!
bec, be strong, please, everything will be o.k.! like someone before mentioned, think positive, it really works! :icon_razz:
Post by: Adi on December 01, 2012, 03:00:22 AM
@ellyd - that interview with KJ you posted is interesting too. There must have been so much she couldn't or wasn't allowed to speak about.
I still have that footage of the private burial in my head.
Post by: hopi on December 01, 2012, 03:08:00 AM
So sorry to hear about your foot, I know what your talking about, it happened to me too some years ago (horse jumped on my foot and a vein was bursting... the foot was blue and green all over and more than twice as much :icon_e_confused:)
Healthcare in America seems to be a BIG problem and I'm so sorry you have to go through this. Take all the positive energy you get from the members here and take your time for healing!
Oh and btw, my deepest :smiley_abuv: for all the work you've done here and hopefully will continue to do. I always look forward to your posts, although I sometimes don't go along with your opinion. So don't bother with the "result" of TS post and be proud of what you're able to do. Love to you and healing light... :icon_exclaim:
@TS Thank you for explaning...
Post by: Adore on December 01, 2012, 03:08:27 AM
TS - thanks for showing up :) unfortunately I will still need to "keep watchin' " because I just don't believe the DWD theory. But I'm used to being on the other end of the spectrum so obviously if you are MJ,you and I think totally different. But that's what makes this all interesting, right? I have several pages to read yet but it looks like I'm in the minority.
Count me in, too.
I don't have any ethical issues with someone dying with dignity "for" MJ, my problem is with FBI's supposed criminal sting. In these almost 4 years after 06/25/2009 I don't remember seeing or reading anything that could relate to an FBI involvement/help in MJ's hoax. All I saw was circus and it had Michael's name and his genius humor writing all over. In my opinion, all those clues and ridiculous events that followed that day couldn't have taken place if FBI had a sting going on, and if Michael was in danger. The way I see it, as far as FBI is concerned, things are either serious are they aren't at all. I mean, in a hypothetical BAM, I cannot imagine FBI's explanation being something like: "see, we protected MJ's life and we allowed him having his "artistic" way in the meantime" (lol).
By the way, in regards with what TS said about the BAM (01.01.2013, at the latest) and the sting, now it's almost the end of 2012, and have we heard anything about a criminal investigation/revelation going on in relation with Michael ? The only "criminal" was Murray and he's "behind bars".
Post by: RedPennylocks on December 01, 2012, 03:10:35 AM
Post by: MJonmind on December 01, 2012, 03:23:18 AM
:bearhug:
UYI
Quote
BAM could go either way, the way we expect it or the way we don't, so we shouldn't have a definite set of expectations, although again nothing wrong with that, but if we expect that we will be disappointed if the outcome is not our own then we might not want to write our expectations in stone, but the sand.You know I just don't have a foggy clue what it will look like, anywhere from a TMZ posting of Harvey doing a live interview with the real MJ with his shades on, (Wouldn't that be awesome!) to a giant MJ hologram in the sky in 14 key cities around the world like the huge statues MJ had made for History, to MJ appearing atop the Mayan temple on 12/21/12 with cameras beaming the occasion live to TV, to another press conference in London with the same MJ, to a Youtube message like Dr. Murray's thanking his fans :icon_lol: or a Christmas message to the world, to Jordie and Gavin giving a Youtube message that they lied and then introducing MJ, to IDK--I've run out of ideas... :icon_e_sad: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_razz: Hey how about all the cast of the hoax lining up on stage at the Mayan event including Murray, KO, TP, the Jacksons, and the hundred others, and then MJ comes on stage!! Maybe you guys can think of other possibilities--I just draw a blank, and of course NOTHING might happen :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry:
I mean if you expect everything, you'll get disappointed by anything.
Mjjj4ever777
Quote
To me, this journey isn't about HOW Michael pulled this off, but WHY???!!! I think that there will be many many of our very own MJ Family here that will be totally shocked, when they finally realize just how massive of an undertaking this has been. This is truly going to effect the whole world...an AWAKENING of the masses on a Global scale!! this is when the "Army of LOVE" will truly be put to the "test", and when all is revealed, EVERYTHING will change, because there will be no going back to the "old" ways of thinking!!Nicely written! I agree!
I could be totally wrong and this is of course is just my opinion, and I am in no way downplaying any of our investigations of the last 3.5 yrs...Michael has helped us to "hone" our skills for further use, when ALL is revealed!! I still Believe that the BIGGEST Bombshell is yet to come, but if for some reason I am wrong, well hey, I am still a much better human, and a much Happier and Positive human today, then I was 3.5 yrs ago! So I have already reaped my reward. so to speak!
Andrea
Quote
TS:QuoteIf all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.Oooh I've got far-fetched explanations.
Well, why don’t we go there? Go ahead Andrea! :icon_lol:
Sim
Quote
To all those who base their judgments on religious/spiritual/emotional beliefs, remember what TS said more than once: leave emotions aside! use logic and existent evidence to reach to a correct conclusion, closer to reality !I was acting like a happy fool all day today (of course I told my immediate family everything but no one else) like this (almost) :icon_redface: :icon_e_sad:!
Whether we like or not that reality!
And IMO, the reality is this:
- A DWD patient was indeed involved (GOD bless his soul!)
- FBI had the major say in this!
- The whole thing is perfectly covered up with a lot of info that will remain classified long time after!
- Michael had little to say in the sting operation, but he was left full authority regarding most part of the hoax (memorial, funeral, TII, Murray trial & all the the adjacent hoaxy artistic activities)
- we can't possibly ever have the answers to all our questions about this elaborated PLAN that started years ago and involved Government officials!
- those who expected to know everything and those who are disappointed in the use of a DWD patient, have 2 options: deal with it and accept the situation OR continue to whine about it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx0Lt1zrv_U&playnext=1&list=PLA3E89B5D80E347B3&feature=results_main[/youtube]
For any of the greatest people who have ever lived and contributed the most, there have likely been some uncomfortable/controversial facts that were part of the story. But these things are good when they stir up passions to change things for the better, and foster dialogue to get to the bottom of taboo topics. Controversy always followed MJ, and will likely follow him in the future, and I'm sure he's okay with that! He will always have lovers and haters, just human nature.
MissG, yes I remember Dimitrie Draghicescu, and it was signed, Father Lingyu Fu, or Father Fooling You! Lol
Post by: onthewingsoflove on December 01, 2012, 04:12:04 AM
My vote that a corpse was used wasn't off in left field after all! How 'bout that! Thank you TS!
Now I'm I waiting to see who the sting is for! Let's see if my guess on that one pans out!
Stay blessed!
OnTheWingsOfLove
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 05:22:11 AM
In these almost 4 years after 06/25/2009 I don't remember seeing or reading anything that could relate to an FBI involvement/help in MJ's hoax.You missed it. Search through TS posts back in 2010 - 2011 ...about sting operation (FBI)!
And even if you hadn't read TS, you surely must have heard of all the FBI files (333 pages !) on Michael released in the media!
And what about all those autopsy, death certificate and other official documents being released? Who do you think had the authority to do that , other than FBI /police/government officials?
All I saw was circus and it had Michael's name and his genius humor writing all over.That's the scratch of the surface. That's the cloth in which the whole hoax is 'dressed' up!
The way I see it, as far as FBI is concerned, things are either serious are they aren't at all.Things ARE! part of them ARE FBI, part of them are MJ! they couldn't have done it one without the other!
Think of it as a tandem!
- FBI did the serious, legal, "dirty" stuff
- MJ did the artistic part of it all
I mean, in a hypothetical BAM, I cannot imagine FBI's explanation being something like: "see, we protected MJ's life and we allowed him having his "artistic" way in the meantime" (lol).WHY NOT?
You have to remember the PURPOSES of this hoax!
This hoax was NOT done exclusively to catch the mafia in the music/pharmaceutic industry!
You need to go back to the level where the WHYs of the hoax were discussed!
and have we heard anything about a criminal investigation/revelation going on in relation with Michael ? The only "criminal" was Murray and he's "behind bars".Patience.
Let's see the BAM first and then let's hope they will be able to give us more details about that!
Even though I highly doubt now that we will ever get to know everything!
When have you heard of the FBI releasing to the public complete/full information of their operations, especially of this caliber!?
@UYI said it best earlier on this thread! If you expect everything, you will be disappointed by anything!
Post by: curls on December 01, 2012, 05:34:46 AM
I don't understand that leap, much as I don't understand the 'whys', the motive if you like, of the DWD theory, because we aren't allowed to know them because its FBI business. I could pick holes in the DWD theory but what's the point?
I still feel frustrated after a good night's sleep, that all these levels, meticulous studying and investigation of what actually happened on 25th June were never going to reveal the truth.
I'm going back to just watching mode.
@bec, so sorry to hear about your accident, hope you'll heal quickly and feel better soon.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 05:52:03 AM
Why does FBI involvement automatically mean MJ was/is in danger and they were there for his protection, as some are saying here?1. There are recordings posted on Youtube with Michael saying he was afraid for his life, in various occasions.
2. There are videos on Youtube with members of Michael's family saying countless times that there was a conspiracy against him, that "they were trying to murder him".
If you don't believe Michael and his family, then WHO do you believe?
3. TS stressed on the Illuminati theory for a reason! That means those people were infiltrated in his entourage from the music industry, trying to get his catalog/fortune/Neverland by all means!!
4. Michael was framed for those 2 trials!! If "they" were capable of doing that, do you guys seriously doubt that 'they" would hesitate to murder him ??
5. Do you think the FBI just sat on those false allegations and did NOTHING? Do you think they had so many files on Michael just for nothing?? It was said in those files his life was in danger!! It is said on those files that they had found nothing to incriminate Michael!!
How on Earth you can doubt that his life was in danger??
Do you think the FBI would get involved in Michael's hoax, just to have some fun!?? of course there was a SERIOUS MOTIVE!! Life threatening IS a serious motive!! + Financial fraud!! which most of the music industry sharks did to Michael!
6. And then...don't forget about ELVIS !!! Michael wasn't the only one to have received help from the FBI to fake his death to save his life!! Elvis and his family have received numerous death threats too prior to 1977!!
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 01, 2012, 06:18:18 AM
(The following Q's are for TS or anyone else who cares to reply)
I know we are looking at things from a factual non emotional POV, but just curious, from a scriptural point of view, we know you are a biblical man / woman, is DWD scripturally ethical? Couldn't it be considered playing God? In your opinion is MJ comfortable with DWD? (Not judging here, just curious as it is one of the common arguments against DWD esp from Christians) :icon_e_confused:
In addition, re: FBI and Entrapment. If FBI involvement is present, is there any need to protect against and avoid entrapment via MJDHI? :suspect:
If there is FBI involvement and 'project hoax' (if it constitutes a sting) is discussed here on the forum, doesn't that compromise the security of the sting / project. :suspect:
I vote NO to Body, NO to DWD / HOSPICE and YES to both or either Dummy / MJ. I also vote YES to Devils Advocate! :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
Sorry... If I am wrong, I am sorry.. :smiley-vault-misc-150:
My brain must work incorrectly. I apologize for trying to make others believe my bullshit.
@ Bec and others who may be disheartened. Hold up. Don't fret TS may have the ol' joker card of devils advocate... The list is NOT BS!
@ Bec - Just because there isn't already enough L.O.V.E for you in the room (not) ... Hope you're foot heals well and you are able to seek some kind of medical attention. I wish there was a way around that or some way we could help? Is there? It sux that access to medical care is so difficult in the self proclaimed Land of Opportunity. It makes me mad! :icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_redface: Your post makes me feel grateful to be able to walk into any of the 10 medical centers within 5 minutes drive in any desired direction, absolutely free of charge. I will remember what you said next time I am whinging to myself about the waiting time to see a doctor when I get there. Thanks for the reality check. Not being smart, just thinking how I need to chill and remember how fortunate we are here in Australia instead of moaning about trivial crap like waiting times the price of medication, etc.
Good health to you my friend.
UYIQuoteBAM could go either way, the way we expect it or the way we don't, so we shouldn't have a definite set of expectations, although again nothing wrong with that, but if we expect that we will be disappointed if the outcome is not our own then we might not want to write our expectations in stone, but the sand.You know I just don't have a foggy clue what it will look like, anywhere from a TMZ posting of Harvey doing a live interview with the real MJ with his shades on, (Wouldn't that be awesome!) to a giant MJ hologram in the sky in 14 key cities around the world like the huge statues MJ had made for History, to MJ appearing atop the Mayan temple on 12/21/12 with cameras beaming the occasion live to TV, to another press conference in London with the same MJ, to a Youtube message like Dr. Murray's thanking his fans :icon_lol: or a Christmas message to the world, to Jordie and Gavin giving a Youtube message that they lied and then introducing MJ, to IDK--I've run out of ideas... :icon_e_sad: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_razz: Hey how about all the cast of the hoax lining up on stage at the Mayan event including Murray, KO, TP, the Jacksons, and the hundred others, and then MJ comes on stage!! Maybe you guys can think of other possibilities--I just draw a blank, and of course NOTHING might happen :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry:
I mean if you expect everything, you'll get disappointed by anything.
To add to that a pre-recorded message from MJ to be aired to the world, in which he explains he is alive and reason for hoax whilst holding a copy of a current dated newspaper as proof to shut up the nay-sayers! :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
Post by: curls on December 01, 2012, 06:26:27 AM
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 06:31:45 AM
[...] I don't understand the 'whys', the motive if you like, of the DWD theory, because we aren't allowed to know them because its FBI business.I don't know... maybe you should go ahead and say what's on your mind regarding the DWD theory!
I could pick holes in the DWD theory but what's the point?
The point would be to eliminate your doubts. Who knows maybe TS will reply to your objections and clarify things for you...
Maybe we should all, take a break from the current discussion here, just relax a bit, and then re-read most of TS posts from the very beginning! and then focus more on his last messages here in this thread. Maybe things will become clearer then... for everyone!
much LOVE to you all! :bearhug:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 06:38:17 AM
(The following Q's are for TS or anyone else who cares to reply)I think we should make the distinction between what people THINK (personal POVs, emotions, religious beliefs, etc) and what was actually DONE! [with or without Michael's will/knowing of it!]
I know we are looking at things from a factual non emotional POV, but just curious, from a scriptural point of view, we know you are a biblical man / woman, is DWD scripturally ethical?
Just because some people don't agree with the DWD practice, it doesn't mean it wasn't used for this hoax!
And there is also this thing that @ellyd mentioned: we have here the possibility that the FBI sting was targeting the "donors/organs-dealers/mafia"!
Then think: if they manage to catch those monsters with the help of a DWD patient, do you still think it was a bad/unethical (against Scripture) thing they did?
I mean, you need to decide which thing is worse out of the two!
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 01, 2012, 06:50:34 AM
I think we should make the distinction between what people THINK (personal POVs, emotions, religious beliefs, etc) and what was actually DONE! [with or without Michael's will/knowing of it!]
Just because some people don't agree with the DWD practice, it doesn't mean it wasn't used for this hoax!
a) I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with DWD.
b) If DWD was used in MJs own hoax I am sure he would have known about it / authorized or denied it as he is driver
c) If DWD was used (then aside all of the logical explanations for body theory) the natural thought process is that MJ is ok ethically with DWD. More of an observation not using it to 'solve' current theory investigation.
d) Regardless of the varying POV's, There is STILL NO WAY of making a distinction (as per your words) of 'what was actually DONE!' Even if TS says DWD was used doesn't mean it is so (que devils advocate)
Its just a statement / question from a scriptural and ethical point of view. Not necessarily even my point of view. (Trust me, I ain't bible bashing here) But by default if TS says that DWD was used, then by default the inference is that MJ is ethically and scripturally ok with DWD, which I just find interesting. It was just a side comment in the form of a Q that's all.
EDIT:I know that I am 'breaking the rules' even going down the scriptural / ethical road, but if DWD were used, then it does lend the question to what I raised. And perhaps I AM clutching at straws because I simply don't believe a body / DWD was used, and yet MR.ihaveananswerforeverything has trumped MJ live / Dummy theory. :icon_mrgreen:
With L.O.V.E
Post by: Sarahli on December 01, 2012, 07:09:12 AM
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4505Bcg9XmO4mjOULJto8aPRspqYpb5WMSpPVBw1mhjhykpQ4)
:bearhug:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 07:17:42 AM
I think we should make the distinction between what people THINK (personal POVs, emotions, religious beliefs, etc) and what was actually DONE! [with or without Michael's will/knowing of it!]
Just because some people don't agree with the DWD practice, it doesn't mean it wasn't used for this hoax!
a) I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with DWD.But you questioned above whether DWD practice was ethical or not. To me this implies you also disagree with it. (which is your right!)
b) If DWD was used in MJs own hoax I am sure he would have known about it / authorized or denied it as he is driverOf course TS (MJ) knew about the use of a DWD patient. TS said that MJ doesn't know everything about that day.
c) If DWD was used (then aside all of the logical explanations for body theory)Why leave aside all the logical explanations? It seems to me you refuse to accept them. But that's of course your choice and I respect it.
the natural thought process is that MJ is ok ethically with DWD.That's your assumption.
Maybe he is ethically OK with it, maybe he's not. Can you know the answer with certainty?
And then it's his right to agree or not with it. Who are we to judge that?
As I said... maybe he had no choice but agree with the terms of the FBI ! their way or no way! And then again you need to think at the purpose for which it was done! It was for a great , good purpose!
d) Regardless of the varying POV's, There is STILL no way of knowing or distinction (as per your words) 'what was actually DONE!' Even if TS says DWD was used doesn't mean it is so (que devils advocate)But you mentioned at point c) here above ^^ That there are LOGICAL EXPLANATIONS!
It wasn't just TS saying that! he backed up what he says with logical explanations.
But you chose to leave them aside...
Its just a statement / question from a scriptural and ethical point of view. Not necessarily even my point of view. (Trust me, I ain't bible bashing here) But by default if TS says that DWD was used, then by default the inference is that MJ is ethically and scripturally ok with DWD, which I just find interesting.Ok, so your point of view is that you find it interesting for MJ to be "scripturally ok with DWD".
So you leave aside the logical explanations [as you said at point c)] and stick to your point of view which is: interesting for MJ to be "scripturally ok with DWD".
I'm sorry @Aussie, pls don't take it wrong, but you just don't make sense. At least not me.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 01, 2012, 07:37:05 AM
a) I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with DWD.
But you questioned above whether DWD practice was ethical or not. To me this implies you also disagree with it. (which is your right!)No I didnt question DWD practice. My point is that I questioned whether MJ was ok with DWD. But moving on.
b) If DWD was used in MJs own hoax I am sure he would have known about it / authorized or denied it as he is driver
Of course TS (MJ) knew about the use of a DWD patient. TS said that MJ doesn't know everything about that day.
Ts has said a lot of things that could turn out to be red herrings, (strictly re: what went on that day)
c) If DWD was used (then aside all of the logical explanations for body theory)
Why leave aside all the logical explanations? It seems to me you refuse to accept them. But that's of course your choice and I respect it.
Yes, I refuse to accept them, especially when the one giving the so called logical explanations says 'oh and by the way I may just lead you down the garden path here and let you "think" this is what happened and let you "theorise" on how that a particular thing happened, and then explain back to you logically "how" it could have been done, when it may not even be the case'. In fact TS has said this on more than one occasion in the past and also just re-highlighted that again recently, obviously for a reason.
Are you laughing yet TS??? :Pulling_hair:
the natural thought process is that MJ is ok ethically with DWD.
That's your assumption. Maybe he is ethically OK with it, maybe he's not. Can you know the answer with certainty? And then it's his right to agree or not with it. Who are we to judge that?omg, sim. You are truly tiresome and impossible at times. DID I judge? NO. My opening statement said that I didn't judge. USE LOGIC yourself. If MJ is DRIVER and if MJ used DWD then LOGIC says he is ok with DWD. And no, I don't know the answer with certainty which is why I 'asked' the question for TS opinion, knowing that he probably won't answer an ethics / religious related Q anyway.
Its just a statement / question from a scriptural and ethical point of view. Not necessarily even my point of view. (Trust me, I ain't bible bashing here) But by default if TS says that DWD was used, then by default the inference is that MJ is ethically and scripturally ok with DWD, which I just find interesting.
Ok, so your point of view is that you find it interesting.
So you leave aside the logical explanations (as you said at point a) and stick to your point of view which is interesting.
I'm sorry @Aussie, pls don't take it wrong, but you just don't make sense. At least not me.
It doesn't "make sense to you" because you are making a simple sentence overly complicated. I am looking logically, which is why I still believe in the Live MJ / Dummy theory, because to me that still makes sense. And no I am not 'leaving aside logical explanations,' both the body and live MJ theories STILL have logical explanations.
Anyway, I'm done. It was just a comment and not supposed to escalate to this.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 07:42:06 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 01, 2012, 07:50:14 AM
I'm ok with being wrong abt Live MJ or Dummy theory in future if it turns out that way. But for now sticking to it. Solidly.
But yes love, agree to disagree :smiley_abuv:
Post by: Adi on December 01, 2012, 07:58:29 AM
However, I do not have a problem with it and if I were in that same situation with a terminal illness and we had the same law here in Australia I would choose it - especially after watching my mother die an agonising death from cancer when she was only 65. We don't know what Michael's beliefs are in regards to this and he is possibly a very liberal thinker...more so than alot of people might believe. People can still be very spiritual and religious and still be very liberal in their beliefs/ideas and thinking...I have a very good friend just like this.
IDK...but I think we are too far down the track that TS is deliberately throwing us red herrings......maybe a year/2years or more ago perhaps...but I have the feeling now that we are at the pointy end and we are beyond the red herring stage...anyway that is just my gut feeling/opinion.
Anyway - all you guys here are awesome and I love you all dearly...even though I have never met any of you! :icon_mrgreen:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 08:01:50 AM
Telepathic thinking!
IDK...but I think we are too far down the track that TS is deliberately throwing us red herrings......maybe a year/2years or more ago perhaps...but I have the feeling now that we are at the pointy end and we are beyond the red herring stage...anyway that is just my gut feeling/opinion.
I was just writing a private message with the same thought! :icon_e_wink:
I highly doubt TS has any time now of just 'playing" with us!
This is the end of the hoax!
And he didn't seem he was joking!! oh no!
And I agree with everything you said in your post Adi!
Post by: Adi on December 01, 2012, 08:08:19 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 01, 2012, 08:11:39 AM
Yes at pointy end. Trust me, I GET that. However just less than 24 hrs ago TS still is making posts such as "he may play devils advocate" and a day or two before that also said that even post BAM ppl still not know all of the hows. I guess my point is that although he may have seemed serious, and serving the silver platter of answers, he has left himself a loophole to lead us astray with theories.
Re: Ethical debate on DWD that's a no win argument that is bound to go no where. I didn't directly mean to raise an ethics debate. But I guess I indirectly did when I asked out of curiosity if MJ is ok with it. I remind, that I *wasn't* judging nor even *revealing* my own opinion on the subject.
I'd actually like to move right away from such a debate, because it won't be conducive to the thread and will go in circles nor was it my intention. So please forget I asked the off the cuff ill thought out Q.
Meanwhile, any comment on this:
Quote
In addition, re: FBI and Entrapment. If FBI involvement is present, is there any need to protect against and avoid entrapment via MJDHI? :suspect:
If there is FBI involvement and 'project hoax' (if it constitutes a sting) is discussed here on the forum, doesn't that compromise the security of the sting / project. :suspect:
Post by: Adi on December 01, 2012, 08:33:49 AM
as for the entrapment issue - I guess us hoaxers (including all the forums) figuring out the hoax, when everyone else in the entire world had the same info as us, guards against entrapment for "team hoax". As to your question re: the sting - maybe it happened way earlier than when we started to think there was a sting........perhaps it even started before Michael "died"... maybe years before.....perhaps by the time the Dr M trial had started, the ground work had been laid for whatever was to happen. All we have been able to ascertain is that there is most likely a serious sting component in place (and not everyone here agrees - which is probably a good thing in terms of entrapment), but what that sting is against we don't know......maybe that is where the red herrings in the past came into play...so we could not compromise a sting. On top of this, we are thought of as loonies believing that MJ is alive so also that might have served as a kind of diversion too.
Other than that I have no friggin' idea :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 08:41:37 AM
lol @sim.....I often freak my husband & kids out with my telepathic thinking....same here !! :icon_eek:
Ask Wishy! :icon_lol:
Post by: Andrea on December 01, 2012, 10:18:35 AM
AndreaQuoteTS:QuoteIf all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.Oooh I've got far-fetched explanations.
Well, why don’t we go there? Go ahead Andrea! :icon_lol:
Ok, since you asked. :icon_geek: :icon_lol:
I have two “far-fetched” explanations that could either be separate or together. They'll probably blend together as I write this. The only “problem” is I don’t have “solid evidence” or “proof” and there are a lot of “what ifs”. Although, the way I see it, there are a lot of “what ifs” with the DWD patient that don’t exactly have “proof” either. Just to be clear, the use of a DWD patient for the hoax is something that I can and will accept if MJ were to explain WHY it was necessary and I do feel for anyone who has to make that heart breaking decision to end their life while they still have the strength to do it. There’s no doubt that TS has given us a lot of truths over the years but he did say that he would sometimes support a false theory and whether that’s the case with the DWD patient theory is yet to be fully determined, imo.
There does seem to be evidence supporting the FBI’s involvement, the numerology with the 333 pages released, intended for 12/21/09 and their use of Michael Joseph Jackson ONLY when referring to MJ being dead and confirmed evidence they heavily investigated Michael over the years. I think over the years that Michael’s life has been threatened, it’s almost to be expected of someone so famous…and look at all the famous figures before him who were assassinated. Not to mention that obviously someone(s) was out to destroy him, both in 1993 and 2005.
TS had said a while ago that if someone “in” on the hoax spilled the beans and MJ’s plans for that day were revealed, it would be unwise for MJ to go to UCLA because “they” could get (kill) him then, and no one would be the wiser since it was being reported that MJ died. But if someone “in” spilled the beans, wouldn’t that also reveal any potential getaway plans – like flying out the night before or morning of?? “They” (TPTB, or whoever) would have the resources to intercept MJ before he got to the airport or once in air, or at his destination. In that case, why would the “enemy” go after MJ at UCLA when they know he’s not going to be there? So TS’ logic there could go either way. Perhaps MJ’s ORIGINAL official plans to fly away was a decoy plan, to throw “them” off.
A point TS made when rebutalling bec's list against the DWD theory about the locked doors at UCLA. TS: "Sure, you can lock doors; but some of the staff have top security clearances, and keys to all the doors. There would probably be at least three shifts of people in this category—and what if one of them happened to be at the hospital during their unscheduled hours (perhaps they forgot something from the previous shift, and came by to get it, or whatever). If they learned about MJ arriving, they would probably want to dive in and “help out”. If that person discovered a dummy, or a perfectly healthy live MJ, they could blow the whistle and spoil everything." What about MJ's bodyguards standing outside the locked door to ensure what you said doesn't happen? There were at least 2 SUVs that followed the ambulance to UCLA, presumably the rest of MJ's team which included some bodyguards. Nobody's getting past them, their job description for that day would be very specific - no one gets near MJ.
I don’t believe a real dead body was meant to fool the people who handled it based on what I know of that day, the evidence we have on hand. The “coincidences” that TS listed supporting the DWD theory could’ve been done intentionally to confuse us, the death hoax investigators. This hoax has so far lasted well over 3 years and we’ve had updates, levels and Signs from TS, among re-directs and other discussions. So it seems we're following the hoax investigation plan or agenda, meant to last a long time and not be figured out right away and if it was, then we’d need to be thrown off our game, constantly questioning what we think we know (which is good). It creates drama and controversy. :icon_e_wink:
I found this interesting. It's a breakdown of good story-telling.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage
Quote
What is this about? This wiki is a catalog of the tricks of the trade for writing fiction.
Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Trope) are devices and conventions that a writer can reasonably rely on as being present in the audience members' minds and expectations.
Quote
Merriam-Webster gives a definition of "trope" as a "figure of speech." In storytelling, a trope is just that — a conceptual figure of speech, a storytelling shorthand for a concept that the audience will recognize and understand instantly.
Here is an example of a Death Trope. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathTropes?from=Main.DeathTrope)
Someone Has to Die (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SomeoneHasToDie)
Quote
This is a specific variation of the Heroic Sacrifice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicSacrifice) where because of a MacGuffin (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin) someone has to volunteer to die so that everyone else can live. This is taking one for the team ramped up to the ultimate sacrifice. The reason may involve Life Energy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LifeEnergy) released upon their death.
In contrast to Taking the Bullet (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakingTheBullet) this is not a spur of the moment decision but one where the person making the sacrifice has time to think through a decision and usually give his Final Speech (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FinalSpeech) before making his sacrifice. Typically the speech includes the hero expressing that he knows exactly what he is doing and is willing to pay the price. Sometimes the hero even has to fight his own team for the right to die. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoreHeroThanThou)
One of the most important aspects of this trope, it only works if the person volunteers. If anyone is ordered to be the sacrifice, then either someone's a villain or you're watching a dark comedy. Occasionally, a hero will volunteer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyrWithoutACause) and someone more expendable (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoreExpendableThanYou) will stop them.
May, occasionally, diverge from a Heroic Sacrifice by way of Fridge Logic, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic) in one specific situation: Everyone is doomed unless one character makes the sacrifice. However, only one character is capable of making the sacrifice, and unless he does, everybody (including him) is doomed. Usually, the story plays it as a Heroic Sacrifice anyway. Only later does the audience realize that, wait a minute—he didn't make a Heroic Sacrifice after all; he just decided he wasn't going to take everybody else with him when he inevitably kicked the bucket.
Closely related to You Shall Not Pass, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouShallNotPass) but distinct in that there is no fight scene and death is certain. Sometimes it's justified by the person making the sacrifice having a Convenient Terminal Illness. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvenientTerminalIllness)
This is Older Than Feudalism, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanFeudalism) as it is the reason why Christ had to die in Christianity.
Something to think about anyways. I know some of you might :computer-losy-smiley: after this post, sorry! :icon_lol: I will remain open to all possibilities including the DWD one until we know for sure from MJ himself. Hopefully he will tell us. :errrr:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 10:51:23 AM
Something to think about anyways.I_DEED !! :icon_eek:
Great post Andrea! you underlined some very good points!
Post by: Dontwalkaway on December 01, 2012, 11:21:27 AM
Post by: wishingstar on December 01, 2012, 11:25:44 AM
@ADI: you said it better than I could have! (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Respect/gentleman.gif)lol @sim.....I often freak my husband & kids out with my telepathic thinking....same here !! :icon_eek:
Ask Wishy! :icon_lol:
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0xKsAqVAw3-1Z1THcRQ9KiWbsPx30xvToRe7U1ofbArRvosG5Ow)
I know what your thinking............
:thjajaja121: :thjajaja121: :thjajaja121:
LOVE
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 01, 2012, 11:57:42 AM
Quote
There does seem to be evidence supporting the FBI’s involvement, the numerology with the 333 pages released, intended for 12/21/09 and their use of Michael Joseph Jackson ONLY when referring to MJ being dead and confirmed evidence they heavily investigated Michael over the years. I think over the years that Michael’s life has been threatened, it’s almost to be expected of someone so famous…and look at all the famous figures before him who were assassinated. Not to mention that obviously someone(s) was out to destroy him, both in 1993 and 2005.
Of course there are evidences of a FBI's involvement in Michael's hoax, that's clear from the moment that Michael said it in TII: "We have 4 years to get it right" referring to Obama's term with who without his help this FBI investigation wouldn't never taken place.
Remember what Front I mean Michael wrote:
WRONGS <-----> TO GET RIGHTED
Talking about how BAM could look like:
Aussie:
Quote
To add to that a pre-recorded message from MJ to be aired to the world, in which he explains he is alive and reason for hoax whilst holding a copy of a current dated newspaper as proof to shut up the nay-sayers!
And a copy of a current DNA test on his hands because it's very possible that people will think he is an impersonator.
Post by: diggyon on December 01, 2012, 12:09:28 PM
Andrea:[/color][/color]QuoteThere does seem to be evidence supporting the FBI’s involvement, the numerology with the 333 pages released, intended for 12/21/09 and their use of Michael Joseph Jackson ONLY when referring to MJ being dead and confirmed evidence they heavily investigated Michael over the years. I think over the years that Michael’s life has been threatened, it’s almost to be expected of someone so famous…and look at all the famous figures before him who were assassinated. Not to mention that obviously someone(s) was out to destroy him, both in 1993 and 2005.
Of course there are evidences of a FBI's involvement in Michael's hoax, that's clear from the moment that Michael said in TII: "We have 4 years to get it right" referring to Obama's term with who without his help this FBI investigation wouldn't never taken place.
Remember what Front I mean Michael wrote:
WRONGS <-----> TO GET RIGHTED
Talking about how BAM could look like:
Aussie:QuoteTo add to that a pre-recorded message from MJ to be aired to the world, in which he explains he is alive and reason for hoax whilst holding a copy of a current dated newspaper as proof to shut up the nay-sayers!
[b]And a copy of a current DNA test on his hands because it's very possible that people will think he is an impersonator. [/b]
And what if we don't recognize him? What if we think he's an impersonator?? Bam is not going to be easy!! At the very beginning of the hoax many people we doubting the legetimity of TS!! Could happen to real Michael too!
Post by: bec on December 01, 2012, 01:16:35 PM
I have two “far-fetched” explanations that could either be separate or together. They'll probably blend together as I write this. The only “problem” is I don’t have “solid evidence” or “proof” and there are a lot of “what ifs”.
Doesn't matter. TS_comments didn't have any proof or solid evidence either. His whole post was debunking my "what if"s with his own "what if"s. Even IF he is playing DA, he isn't going to admit it no matter how sound the logic or reasoning, that's clear. Apparently, us guessing the right answer is not the point of the game. There are people here who supported the dead body theory or the DWD theory, why didn't he ask them to lay out their reasons? Chew on that for awhile.
Ps. thank you again, everyone, for your well wishes and positive comments, but I don't want to turn this into the poor crippled bec thread. It's all good, it could always be worse! I could be dead. I'm thankful that I still get to be here with everyone.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 01, 2012, 02:07:16 PM
As for the 'danger' in TS 'confirming' what happened that day...how is there any danger when many don't even believe that it's what happened? lol It's actually funny to see the progression of things here....human nature at its finest. People have constantly asked TS to 'help' us figure stuff out, which he has repeatedly done. So, he helps by giving us supporting evidence in favor of the corpse theory, while showing some points against other theories....ALL of which everyone was free to then research on their own, without taking his word for it. Reaction: People don't believe him. He then asks for a list to be compiled of the strongest points against the DWD theory, as well as all strong points in favor of Live MJ and/or dummy (which, btw, just based on his request, I'm not sure how people didn't/couldn't see where he was going with it....i.e. I'm surprised people were surprised by his answers lol). Most were very confident in the lists compiled...and showed their support for the points listed. The 'legal' aspects were also a 'problem' for many and I agreed with that as well (i.e. that, to me, was the biggest question and possibly the strongest point potentially against a DWD patient dying in CA). TS then replied by showing concrete proof that it is NOT illegal...as well as answering each and every point on both lists, as well as providing 12 points in favor of the corpse theory. Reaction: People don't believe him lol. Why bother asking the question if you're not going to believe the answer?
It doesn't matter one bit what our personal views are about a DWD patient having been used....nor does it matter if we believe this is what happened or not. And that's all that keeps getting posted by those who don't believe TS....page after page of personal opinions and NO solid evidence against anything TS said. As with ANY theory...it's not just a matter of trying to debunk it, any good investigation also includes trying to support it...in order to see if it is makes any sense. Those who are against the corpse theory and/or don't believe TS, IMO have not even attempted to support it and/or see the 'logic' of it (at least I haven't seen any posts showing this)....which is a clear indication of 'emotion' or 'bias' being used. In matters of investigation, 'emotion' and 'bias' are stumbling blocks and should be avoided....TS has always told us that....but maybe he was 'throwing us off' with that too.
All I know is that IF, in the end, we find out that no corpse was used....I'll be perfectly fine with any alternative. I just hope that those who are so adamant that NO corpse was used will be 'okay' IF/when we find out one WAS used. An army is only as strong as it's weakest member....and Mike will need all of us to have his back, no matter what happened 'that day'.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: curls on December 01, 2012, 02:57:45 PM
Quote
If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.
As far as I'm aware MJ has never tried to create an illusion of a DWD patient. That would be all TS's doing methinks!
And I can't get past this also from TS (my bolding):
"And please pay attention to the difference between the reasons for the FBI choosing to use a DWD patient (which we may not fully understand), and the evidences that a real DWD patient was actually used (which we should all be able to understand)."
I know I keep banging on about this, but it doesn't sit easy 'blindly' accepting a theory when I can't ascertain a motive for it. It seems that the old 'have-everybody-in-on-it' cop out clause has been replaced by an 'it-was-FBI-so-we'll-never-understand' excuse, when facing the unexplainable. I'm not trying to be awkward here, I really am stuck. I'll shut up now!
Post by: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 03:04:20 PM
@Wishy: :icon_lol:
Post by: bec on December 01, 2012, 03:29:00 PM
TS (my bolding):QuoteIf all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.
As far as I'm aware MJ has never tried to create an illusion of a DWD patient. That would be all TS's doing methinks!
Suppose he means the story line Murray told about leaving the room and coming back to find MJ dead/MJ committed suicide by self administering. But yeah, there was also the warm room story that supports the corpse theory and the original "MJ collapsed in front of Prince who thought he was just playing a prank" that supports the LiveMJ theory. But then, only the Murray leaving the room story made it to court so I suppose we are to give that more credence.
And I can't get past this also from TS (my bolding):
"And please pay attention to the difference between the reasons for the FBI choosing to use a DWD patient (which we may not fully understand), and the evidences that a real DWD patient was actually used (which we should all be able to understand)."
I know I keep banging on about this, but it doesn't sit easy 'blindly' accepting a theory when I can't ascertain a motive for it. It seems that the old 'have-everybody-in-on-it' cop out clause has been replaced by an 'it-was-FBI-so-we'll-never-understand' excuse, when facing the unexplainable. I'm not trying to be awkward here, I really am stuck. I'll shut up now!
Don't shut up. I agree. We got scolded repeatedly for using that clause last year.
Couple things I posted about before and am curious if anyone else has thoughts on (bolding mine as well):
And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
If a dummy could be used with no greater risk, why not use one? I don't understand. If TS_comments doesn't agree with "many on this thread", then why did he use this 3rd option as support for the DWD patient? So then he does agree with "many on this thread" that using a dummy carries no greater risk then using a DWD patient; if the DWD patients back out they'll just use a dummy, no problem?
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
A DWD patient doesn't need an alleged date of death either. The person would have died on 6/25/09. Why even include the side note? It suggests that a DWD patient is NOT being described by the verdict.
Besides, by TS_comment's evidence, the victimization would not even be alleged by the California court, since he is arguing that the DWD scenario would not be illegal in CA. So I'm confused there too.
Post by: jono on December 01, 2012, 05:35:32 PM
I vote NO to Body, NO to DWD / HOSPICE and YES to both or either Dummy / MJ. I also vote YES to Devils Advocate! :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
.....Don't fret TS may have the ol' joker card of devils advocate... The list is NOT BS!
:th_bravo:
Post by: paula-c on December 01, 2012, 07:29:42 PM
Quote
Why does FBI involvement automatically mean MJ was/is in danger and they were there for his protection, as some are saying here?
1. There are recordings posted on Youtube with Michael saying he was afraid for his life, in various occasions.
2. There are videos on Youtube with members of Michael's family saying countless times that there was a conspiracy against him, that "they were trying to murder him".
If you don't believe Michael and his family, then WHO do you believe?
3. TS stressed on the Illuminati theory for a reason! That means those people were infiltrated in his entourage from the music industry, trying to get his catalog/fortune/Neverland by all means!!
4. Michael was framed for those 2 trials!! If "they" were capable of doing that, do you guys seriously doubt that 'they" would hesitate to murder him ??
5. Do you think the FBI just sat on those false allegations and did NOTHING? Do you think they had so many files on Michael just for nothing?? It was said in those files his life was in danger!! It is said on those files that they had found nothing to incriminate Michael!!
How on Earth you can doubt that his life was in danger??
Do you think the FBI would get involved in Michael's hoax, just to have some fun!?? of course there was a SERIOUS MOTIVE!! Life threatening IS a serious motive!! + Financial fraud!! which most of the music industry sharks did to Michael!
6. And then...don't forget about ELVIS !!! Michael wasn't the only one to have received help from the FBI to fake his death to save his life!! Elvis and his family have received numerous death threats too prior to 1977!!
I agree, and why a congresswoman takes the trouble to mention that there was or there is an investigation of the FBI
yes there are or there was an investigation of the FBIQuoteHi folks,
I remarked on this video several months ago and it just came to me to find it again and re-view it. It is the video of the Congressional Black Caucus Tribute to Michael Jackson and features beautifully eloquent speakers.
I would encourage people who haven't seen it to watch both parts.
However, what I want to draw particular attention to are the comments of Congresswoman Watson, who, in part I, @ 35:30 says the following( bold are my emphasis):
"I want you to know that the Los Angeles community, the state of California, and the nation, we're all concerned about Michael Jackson's death.
And uh, I'm in contact with the family, and the people who handle his career involvement, and I assured them that come out into the open becaanything untoward about Michael will use, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is involved in this lengthly investigation. So just know, you might be sitting there and saying why is it taking so long, that they are studying every intricate detail of his life, and his death, and what happened afterwards. So just know, that within a short while, justice will out, and justice will be done. Have faith."
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,23480.0.html
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=banoDxROih4[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D5EOMomQsw4[/youtube]
Post by: Andrea on December 01, 2012, 07:53:22 PM
TS:
Quote
#7 Nobody was allowed upstairs in the Carolwood home. A dummy could be kept in a locked case, until the “emergency” began; aside from a few seconds to take the dummy out of the case, and place it on the bed, there would never be any problem if someone not in the hoax went upstairs. The live MJ theory would also need little if any secrecy upstairs.
Nobody was allowed upstairs, ok, but doesn’t MJ always have an area of his house that is off-limits to his staff? To ensure his own privacy and his children’s. This would not be an uncommon practice in Michael’s home. And the easiness of a dummy was included there nicely, lol.
TS:
Quote
#8 Reports from MJ fans that there was a lot of extra security at Carolwood on the night of June 24/25, 2009. This would be when the DWD patient was brought into the home (and also explains a reason for the missing CCTV). Like #7 above, a locked up dummy or live MJ would not need all that extra security.
The team was assembling together for the next day’s events. Pumping each other up, going over everything one last time, praying together.
TS ended his post on 12 DWD evidences list with “I rest my case.” But then adds one more post afterwards to say “Finally, just like last time, I may play “DA” (devil's advocate)—and try to debunk things that are true, just to keep you on your toes!”
@BTC - I totally agree that TS has repeatedly helped us figure some stuff out. There is no doubt that the forum would be vastly different without him and maybe even wouldn't still be here without him. But TS also applies a Socratic method to his teachings and sometimes he's there to debate with us to stimulate our critical thinking and sometimes he leaves it to us to hash out the opposing opinions. So I don't see how questioning TS is undermining him or anyone supporting a different viewpoint, I find that much is learned from debate, for both 'sides'.
Post by: paula-c on December 01, 2012, 08:44:14 PM
Quote
Quote from: TS_comments on November 24, 2012, 05:03:05 AM
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
A DWD patient doesn't need an alleged date of death either. The person would have died on 6/25/09. Why even include the side note? It suggests that a DWD patient is NOT being described by the verdict.
Besides, by TS_comment's evidence, the victimization would not even be alleged by the California court, since he is arguing that the DWD scenario would not be illegal in CA. So I'm confused there too.
Well, I guess it was the trial for the alleged murder of MJ, that alleged died on 25 June 2009, i believe that there are to be placed in this context, the patient DWD was the instrument,the medium which served to achieve an end,... I don't know if explained well. :icon_geek:
Post by: TS_comments on December 01, 2012, 11:16:38 PM
... One date I noticed TS is the date you have for the burial in the quote below. I presume this is not a mistake or a typo and you have intentionally given us the date the burial was really filmed and then later beamed to the world on 9-3-09?:Quote#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
No, typo; my bad, sorry. :icon_pale: :errrr: :computer-losy-smiley: :Crash: :over-react-smiley:
... fixed :icon_albino:
Good eye! :smiley_abuv:
Post by: BeTheChange on December 01, 2012, 11:43:35 PM
@BTC .... So I don't see how questioning TS is undermining him or anyone supporting a different viewpoint, I find that much is learned from debate, for both 'sides'.
I never said that questioning TS is undermining him....he, himself, has always told us to do so. We should question everything...my point was that we should not only question if info is false, but also if it's true. Sure, there's always the possibility that he's 'misleading' us...but if that's the only reason to doubt the theory, then the doubt is NOT based on the info but instead on the one providing it. It's the info that should be questioned, IMO, not the messenger....and not with personal opinions but rather with evidence that contradicts the info provided.
Perhaps I just see things differently because to me this was never about a 'debate' or about being on one 'side' or another....I saw it as working together, as a team, to try to figure out as best we could, all we could.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 01, 2012, 11:44:02 PM
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 02, 2012, 12:09:15 AM
12 Evidences for DWD
Now for a dozen evidences in support of the DWD theory. This is merely a review, so I won’t be repeating much of the details (they can be found in previous posts by me and/or others). And please pay attention to the difference between the reasons for the FBI choosing to use a DWD patient (which we may not fully understand), and the evidences that a real DWD patient was actually used (which we should all be able to understand).
#1 Confusion of appearance (both with the real MJ, and also with the DWD patient); there would be no need for confusion of appearance, if a good MJ look-alike dummy was used, or live MJ.
#2 The 3-5-09 WA DWD. If we dismiss this as merely a koinkidink, then why not dismiss all the other hoax koinkidinks? Besides, this is not “stand alone” evidence—it is evidence which fits perfectly into all the other points listed here.
#3 Two “unknown” WA DWD death locations in 2009 (never any other “unknown” in WA, and no “unknown” in OR for the first 13 years).
#4 TIAI redirected to the TMZ home page, shortly before the TMZ article that MJ killed himself (on 4-4 at 4am, 2010); and DWD patients must “ingest the medication unassisted”—they must kill themselves.
#5 Paramedics said that it looked like a hospice patient (about 80% to 90% of DWD deaths were also hospice patients). Whether they are all in on the hoax, or not, there has been no good explanation for why they would lie about this.
#6 The warm room on a summer day in California seems unnecessary, if it was a dummy or live MJ.
#7 Nobody was allowed upstairs in the Carolwood home. A dummy could be kept in a locked case, until the “emergency” began; aside from a few seconds to take the dummy out of the case, and place it on the bed, there would never be any problem if someone not in the hoax went upstairs. The live MJ theory would also need little if any secrecy upstairs.
#8 Reports from MJ fans that there was a lot of extra security at Carolwood on the night of June 24/25, 2009. This would be when the DWD patient was brought into the home (and also explains a reason for the missing CCTV). Like #7 above, a locked up dummy or live MJ would not need all that extra security.
#9 The staff was dismissed, before bringing the body down to the ambulance (stated by Kai and Ben); this would not be needed, if there was a dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009 or live MJ.
#10 The towel on the face (another precaution, in addition to dismissing the staff); again, this would not be needed, if there was a dummy or live MJ. This also provides another reason for staging the ambo pic in advance; if it was a dummy or live MJ, they could’ve arranged things to “accidentally” let Ben or Chris get a shot of loading MJ into the ambulance, or something. But if it was a DWD patient, a picture taken in real time would not work.
#11 Sharon said that the body on the stretcher was too short for MJ. A dummy would be made to match the size of MJ, and would not be too short; and live MJ certainly would not be too short. We can try to minimize this evidence, by saying that Sharon did not have a good perspective of the patient on the stretcher, or Sharon is not a reliable witness, or whatever. However, with the DWD theory, you don’t have to come up with any such explanations—you can simply take it at face value, the patient looked shorter than Michael because the patient WAS shorter than Michael. Simple.
#12 The verdict: “Superior court of California Los Angeles County. The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Conrad Robert Murray defendant. Case number SA-073164. Title of court and cause. We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. In violation of penal code section 192 subsection B alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009 as charged in count I of the information.” The charge stated in context is “involuntary manslaughter”—not suicide, or assisted suicide; so even if the DWD patient method was illegal in CA, yet the patient would not be an actual victim of manslaughter (he would be an “alleged victim”). And especially with the FBI sting making the DWD method legal in CA, there is certainly no legal basis for the patient being an actual victim of manslaughter.
We may not be able to positively verify all 12 of these points (such as the towel on the face); however, as I said already, we should take things at “face” value—unless there is good evidence that someone is lying. And in this case, all 12 evidences support the same simple conclusion; no need for any fancy back-flips, or complicated explanations. {see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor)}
I am not listing the following as one of the twelve evidences, but La Toya did give a very clear clue less than ten minutes after TS first posted the DWD evidence: “What is everyone doing with the left overs?” {https://twitter.com/latoyajackson/status/272069763553964033 (https://twitter.com/latoyajackson/status/272069763553964033)}
And clear back in March of 2010 (Update #4), TS said: “… Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died.” Notice that I did not mention a corpse in cold storage for a long time; and DWD fits exactly with a patient who had “recently died.”
If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.
Oh, and one last very important point: almost all of these 12 evidences support the hoax theory, and do not support the literal murder theory.
I rest my case.
:judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley:
Well, as I've always thought they've used a corpse, I prefer to take your words at face value TS.
edit: if I am wrong, so be it.
Post by: Adi on December 02, 2012, 12:12:22 AM
... One date I noticed TS is the date you have for the burial in the quote below. I presume this is not a mistake or a typo and you have intentionally given us the date the burial was really filmed and then later beamed to the world on 9-3-09?:Quote#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
No, typo; my bad, sorry. :icon_pale: :errrr: :computer-losy-smiley: :Crash: :over-react-smiley:
... fixed :icon_albino:
Good eye! :smiley_abuv:
Dang.....and I thought I was onto something! :LolLolLolLol:
Thanks TS :icon_albino:
Post by: Andrea on December 02, 2012, 12:26:41 AM
@BTC .... So I don't see how questioning TS is undermining him or anyone supporting a different viewpoint, I find that much is learned from debate, for both 'sides'.
I never said that questioning TS is undermining him....he, himself, has always told us to do so. We should question everything...my point was that we should not only question if info is false, but also if it's true. Sure, there's always the possibility that he's 'misleading' us...but if that's the only reason to doubt the theory, then the doubt is NOT based on the info but instead on the one providing it. It's the info that should be questioned, IMO, not the messenger....and not with personal opinions but rather with evidence that contradicts the info provided.
Perhaps I just see things differently because to me this was never about a 'debate' or about being on one 'side' or another....I saw it as working together, as a team, to try to figure out as best we could, all we could.
With L.O.V.E. always.
I see it as working together as well, debating various theories is a part of that or else we would've all agreed on a theory years ago. Not everyone is going to see things the same or take something at face value, and that's not suggesting you are, that's just the way it is. The fact that TS might be misleading us is not my only reason for doubting the DWD theory. Some of the evidence is shaky at best but same with some evidences for the live MJ/dummy theory. My point was it can go either way and I do question everything, especially lately. And you're right, you didn't say questioning TS is undermining him, I didn't word what I read correctly. I just haven't seen anything undeniable yet. A vague FBI involvement to answer the unexplainable details doesn't sit right, curls is right about it being a sort of cop-out clause so that's one reason why I question some of the evidence TS (and others) have presented. I will accept whatever happened that day, I just hope one day we'll know. You know what I mean?
Post by: SimPattyK on December 02, 2012, 01:07:03 AM
Even if he said he may play the devil's advocate.... Maybe he just threw that for "them"(forum-watchers, remember!?) , not for us! Even if BAM approaches, this is still a very delicate situation here!
Because if he still cannot give us the answers to all questions, then it means there is still a period of precaution until after the BAM!
2. If both theories are plausible, yet confusion is installed, Then why shouldn't we trust TS?
If we don't trust in him after all these years and after all the clues and evidence he provided (plus verifications from the family), then who the hell (sorry) should we trust!?
I seriously think we've all passed that period when he was teaching us to think for ourselves!
I think he left us enough time to debate/chew these theories and decide for ourselves!
Many of US have decided on which theory to go, way before TS posted his answers!
And then he comes and provides logical explanations in favor of one of those theories!
As Paris once said: "Why can't you just believe!?"
Post by: curls on December 02, 2012, 02:30:22 AM
1. I highly doubt that TS is only playing with us right now! There's no tIME left for games and for "lessons" now!
@Sim, one could argue that this is the ideal time to 'play' with us - to cause the very disturbance that is now apparent .... before the climax! Can't be having us all quietly sitting here drumming our fingers! But I'm not going to labour the point! What happened happened, what will be will be. My thoughts, and those of anyone else here, make not one jot of difference in the great scheme of things.
Post by: jono on December 02, 2012, 04:00:26 AM
:bearhug:
Happy now MJ? You prankster! :icon_lol:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 02, 2012, 04:14:49 AM
[...] What happened happened, what will be will be. My thoughts, and those of anyone else here, make not one jot of difference in the great scheme of things.Yeah, I agree with you on that one! :icon_e_wink:
Post by: MJonmind on December 02, 2012, 05:14:40 AM
Does anyone remember the story of the fans that were waiting at the house saying besides the part about the extra security and the light on in his room all night, that when MJ arrived, he was acting strange, didn’t seem his usual friendly manner towards them and was not eagerly accepting their gifts? Paula do you have that story link by chance? I’m wondering if the the DWD patient had had surgery to look more like MJ, as did the patient in Elvis’s hoax? TS seems to infer that the patient had legally changed his name to Michael Joseph Jackson to add for realism, and so people didn’t feel so much like they were lying. This DWD patient also could have been wearing a mask, wig, white MJ make-up or usual dress of MJ going home from rehearsals. Even if he needed assistance getting out of the SUV or a wheelchair, that would have been beyond the gates where fans would not see. To make a decision to end your life, you have to be clear thinking and might even be well enough to appear reasonable healthy.
I know this is Michael just grimacing really hard, but it makes me laugh. And also pics of him in the wheelchair, were all preparing people to swallow MJ looking like a hospice patient. I can do this to, while I look in the mirror, but it gives me a headache! lol
(http://login.wordpressors.com/Upload/meltdown.tv/michaeldying.jpg)
Adi
Quote
We don't know what Michael's beliefs are in regards to this and he is possibly a very liberal thinker...more so than alot of people might believe. People can still be very spiritual and religious and still be very liberal in their beliefs/ideas and thinking..
TS said he personally supports DWD. It’s interesting to me that MJ didn’t want to his security to kill a bug on stage, yet he was quite okay feeding live mice to his snakes.
Andrea, thanks for 'going there', and your arguments were good, and sparked discussion.
Quote
"Someone had to die."Great find! How many movies have this as part of the ending scenes—lots. And I always hate when the hero dies, I always feel better if a lesser involved person dies, when you’ve gotten attached to the main characters. Interesting parallel mention of Christ’s death. Would we have been happier if it was MJ who had willingly sacrificed himself for helping the world in some way? No, but if he miraculously resurrected then we’d be okay with it. So we don’t like the hero to die. There are movies I can think of where minor role characters die and save many other lives; I’m happier with those stories—like a soldier in a line of duty. Sometimes even in reality, it’s only when there’s a death of someone, that others wake up to a certain danger or problem, which leads to the solution or change.
Bec
Quote
There are people here who supported the dead body theory or the DWD theory, why didn't he ask them to lay out their reasons?I always take it that TS picks those who feel comfortable laying down strong logical arguments in an organized fashion, and you definitely have strengths there—obvious from day one. He’s not going to pick someone he thinks may feel uncomfortable being picked for the task.
Post by: marumjj on December 02, 2012, 06:01:16 AM
12 Evidences for DWD
Now for a dozen evidences in support of the DWD theory. This is merely a review, so I won’t be repeating much of the details (they can be found in previous posts by me and/or others). And please pay attention to the difference between the reasons for the FBI choosing to use a DWD patient (which we may not fully understand), and the evidences that a real DWD patient was actually used (which we should all be able to understand).
#1 Confusion of appearance (both with the real MJ, and also with the DWD patient); there would be no need for confusion of appearance, if a good MJ look-alike dummy was used, or live MJ.
#2 The 3-5-09 WA DWD. If we dismiss this as merely a koinkidink, then why not dismiss all the other hoax koinkidinks? Besides, this is not “stand alone” evidence—it is evidence which fits perfectly into all the other points listed here.
#3 Two “unknown” WA DWD death locations in 2009 (never any other “unknown” in WA, and no “unknown” in OR for the first 13 years).
#4 TIAI redirected to the TMZ home page, shortly before the TMZ article that MJ killed himself (on 4-4 at 4am, 2010); and DWD patients must “ingest the medication unassisted”—they must kill themselves.
#5 Paramedics said that it looked like a hospice patient (about 80% to 90% of DWD deaths were also hospice patients). Whether they are all in on the hoax, or not, there has been no good explanation for why they would lie about this.
#6 The warm room on a summer day in California seems unnecessary, if it was a dummy or live MJ.
#7 Nobody was allowed upstairs in the Carolwood home. A dummy could be kept in a locked case, until the “emergency” began; aside from a few seconds to take the dummy out of the case, and place it on the bed, there would never be any problem if someone not in the hoax went upstairs. The live MJ theory would also need little if any secrecy upstairs.
#8 Reports from MJ fans that there was a lot of extra security at Carolwood on the night of June 24/25, 2009. This would be when the DWD patient was brought into the home (and also explains a reason for the missing CCTV). Like #7 above, a locked up dummy or live MJ would not need all that extra security.
#9 The staff was dismissed, before bringing the body down to the ambulance (stated by Kai and Ben); this would not be needed, if there was a dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009 or live MJ.
#10 The towel on the face (another precaution, in addition to dismissing the staff); again, this would not be needed, if there was a dummy or live MJ. This also provides another reason for staging the ambo pic in advance; if it was a dummy or live MJ, they could’ve arranged things to “accidentally” let Ben or Chris get a shot of loading MJ into the ambulance, or something. But if it was a DWD patient, a picture taken in real time would not work.
#11 Sharon said that the body on the stretcher was too short for MJ. A dummy would be made to match the size of MJ, and would not be too short; and live MJ certainly would not be too short. We can try to minimize this evidence, by saying that Sharon did not have a good perspective of the patient on the stretcher, or Sharon is not a reliable witness, or whatever. However, with the DWD theory, you don’t have to come up with any such explanations—you can simply take it at face value, the patient looked shorter than Michael because the patient WAS shorter than Michael. Simple.
#12 The verdict: “Superior court of California Los Angeles County. The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Conrad Robert Murray defendant. Case number SA-073164. Title of court and cause. We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. In violation of penal code section 192 subsection B alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009 as charged in count I of the information.” The charge stated in context is “involuntary manslaughter”—not suicide, or assisted suicide; so even if the DWD patient method was illegal in CA, yet the patient would not be an actual victim of manslaughter (he would be an “alleged victim”). And especially with the FBI sting making the DWD method legal in CA, there is certainly no legal basis for the patient being an actual victim of manslaughter.
We may not be able to positively verify all 12 of these points (such as the towel on the face); however, as I said already, we should take things at “face” value—unless there is good evidence that someone is lying. And in this case, all 12 evidences support the same simple conclusion; no need for any fancy back-flips, or complicated explanations. {see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor)}
I am not listing the following as one of the twelve evidences, but La Toya did give a very clear clue less than ten minutes after TS first posted the DWD evidence: “What is everyone doing with the left overs?” {https://twitter.com/latoyajackson/status/272069763553964033 (https://twitter.com/latoyajackson/status/272069763553964033)}
And clear back in March of 2010 (Update #4), TS said: “… Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died.” Notice that I did not mention a corpse in cold storage for a long time; and DWD fits exactly with a patient who had “recently died.”
If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.
Oh, and one last very important point: almost all of these 12 evidences support the hoax theory, and do not support the literal murder theory.
I rest my case.
:judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley:
Well, as I've always thought they've used a corpse, I prefer to take your words at face value TS.
edit: if I am wrong, so be it.
Answers were given by TS with its arguments. Using a patient DWD, is simple and applicable to the hoax, and in fact, we "challenges" to present solid evidence against this theory. If there already have been filed, or not?
The debate continues, and if TS can be misleading or not, I do not know, that might only be that the theory of using a patient DWD, does not fit the image we have of MJ, or religious beliefs or simply not agree.
We may never know our power was truly like desarrolo of deception, but even if the FBI was the executor. For my theory is accepted from the beginning, and TS says I rest my case. :bearhug:
Post by: BeTheChange on December 02, 2012, 06:58:03 AM
@BTC .... So I don't see how questioning TS is undermining him or anyone supporting a different viewpoint, I find that much is learned from debate, for both 'sides'.
I never said that questioning TS is undermining him....he, himself, has always told us to do so. We should question everything...my point was that we should not only question if info is false, but also if it's true. Sure, there's always the possibility that he's 'misleading' us...but if that's the only reason to doubt the theory, then the doubt is NOT based on the info but instead on the one providing it. It's the info that should be questioned, IMO, not the messenger....and not with personal opinions but rather with evidence that contradicts the info provided.
Perhaps I just see things differently because to me this was never about a 'debate' or about being on one 'side' or another....I saw it as working together, as a team, to try to figure out as best we could, all we could.
With L.O.V.E. always.
I see it as working together as well, debating various theories is a part of that or else we would've all agreed on a theory years ago. Not everyone is going to see things the same or take something at face value, and that's not suggesting you are, that's just the way it is. The fact that TS might be misleading us is not my only reason for doubting the DWD theory. Some of the evidence is shaky at best but same with some evidences for the live MJ/dummy theory. My point was it can go either way and I do question everything, especially lately. And you're right, you didn't say questioning TS is undermining him, I didn't word what I read correctly. I just haven't seen anything undeniable yet. A vague FBI involvement to answer the unexplainable details doesn't sit right, curls is right about it being a sort of cop-out clause so that's one reason why I question some of the evidence TS (and others) have presented. I will accept whatever happened that day, I just hope one day we'll know. You know what I mean?
@Andrea...thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts...and I DO know what you, and others, mean. The discussions we've had on the forum over the years...many sparked by 'paths' TS alluded to but also 'paths'/ideas/contributions from many members here, have been amazing...and I completely agree that 'us' disagreeing on certain things along the way was perfect (if we all agreed, then perhaps we wouldn't have dug as deep as we did). And still, we don't all agree even now.
I'm 'ok' with the corpse theory....not because TS supported it or 'confirmed' it (I was 'ok' with it long before he did)....but because of all the research that was done over the years by many. As with every theory...the 'evidence' will only take us so far, since we are limited with what we 'know'. That's when 'logic' IMO kicks in and things either 'logically' make sense or they don't. To me, based on everything we do 'know', the corpse theory logically makes sense....and one of those 'dots' IS the FBI involvement. So much so that, in my mind, if there is no FBI involvement then the corpse theory wouldn't make as much sense as the other options. IMO, the FBI connection is not vague (the targets of the 'sting' might be...but not their involvement---there has been a lot of 'evidence' pointing to their involvement, mixed in with some 'logic' showing that they are helping Mike)....nor is it a 'cop-out'.
Having said that, though, I wouldn't say I'm 100% sure that's what happened lol...there's always a little room for doubt. What I am 100% sure of is that the 'script' has, and is, calling for it to look like a DWD/hospice patient DID play a role on June 25th. So, I'm left wondering WHY if it's not what happened? The only thing I can think of (and as others have mentioned)...is that it's the most 'controversial' option and 'they' want to throw us off so that we'll be totally surprised by what really happened. Still, that doesn't explain all the 'dots' along the way....both evidence and logic based....that DO point to the corpse theory.
I guess all we can do, at this point, is wait and keep watchin'...'the truth will prevail in time'. I am ready for just about anything lol....the only thing I'm not ready for, is nothing happening.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 02, 2012, 07:14:48 AM
First of all, THANK YOU TS, for posting...At this point DWD does make sense as the main barrier, that is 'legalities' has been cleared.
So the essence of your post is...
- a dwd patient used.
- FBI actively involved in the sting.
- A sting not just an artistic one, involves serious criminal investigation.
- FBI and MJ shared their responsibilities in setting up this hoax.
---------
TS:QuoteHowever, in some case, it’s true that I actually do not know for sure what happened; I said very early, that I don’t know everything about the hoax. And in this case, I do not know exactly what the FBI agents told the DWD patient—nor does MJ himself know, for that matter. And most likely, the FBI is not going to disclose those kind of details to anyone.
If the FBI did 'say' anything to the DWD patient (which would probably relate to the hoax/sting, i guess), wouldn't that again violate CA law? Because the FBI is actually talking with this patient regarding the hoax/sting.
Another point which i have raised earlier, some pages ago.
It's not guaranteed (at this point) that these DWD patients are Michael fans or admirers who would 'willingly' want to assist in the hoax, and be of a great help/significance in helping MJ and FBI in accomplishing their mission.
This DWD patient might also be any other guy, believing the media lies on Michael. ok If not Michael, why would the patient want to assist the FBI in carrying out their mission.
As it is not stated anywhere that the patient willingly agreed to be a part of the hoax, it gives room for the speculation that FBI might have convinced this patient to co-operate with them...This can violate the CA Law, as they would be providing 'advice'.
could anyone answer this for me....i posted this couple of days ago...
Post by: Andrea on December 02, 2012, 08:46:10 AM
@ BTC - I think once we understand the WHYs involved in the hoax, the HOWs will finally fall in to place, making perfect sense. For the most part it's like we've been doing the reverse, trying to figure out the hows without knowing the whys. Until we have a better understanding, we'll keep watchin'! I'm ready for anything with you my friend...hopefully it doesn't come down to nothing. :errrr:
Thanks for taking the time to talk through this with me and explaining your thoughts as well, I appreciate it and I appreciate you. :icon_e_smile:
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 02, 2012, 09:38:58 AM
1. I highly doubt that TS is only playing with us right now! There's no tIME left for games and for "lessons" now!
@Sim, one could argue that this is the ideal time to 'play' with us - to cause the very disturbance that is now apparent .... before the climax! Can't be having us all quietly sitting here drumming our fingers! But I'm not going to labour the point! What happened happened, what will be will be. My thoughts, and those of anyone else here, make not one jot of difference in the great scheme of things.
I don't think he's only playing with us.. but I do believe we should expect some playing!! :icon_razz: :icon_razz:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsvOkgnJhQ4[/youtube]
"Let me (bathe/breathe?) in my own time and I'll come back in. I'll button my shirt, jacket, or whatever this is. I'm gonna look around a little bit, play with them, snap my fingers maybe, and then bam!" :icon_cool:
Post by: BeTheChange on December 02, 2012, 09:50:09 AM
And I appreciate you as well, very much so!
:bearhug:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 02, 2012, 09:56:12 AM
And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
If a dummy could be used with no greater risk, why not use one? I don't understand. If TS_comments doesn't agree with "many on this thread", then why did he use this 3rd option as support for the DWD patient? So then he does agree with "many on this thread" that using a dummy carries no greater risk then using a DWD patient; if the DWD patients back out they'll just use a dummy, no problem?
Could anyone who believes TS_comments and supports the DWD patient theory explain this supportive evidence that he presented? Can anyone make sense of this? If a dummy is a viable ' emergency plan C', then why is it necessary to use a real person who just died at all?
Also, why did this person need an alleged date of death if they really did die on 6/25/09?
Also, lastly but not at all leastly...
can anyone hypothesize why Front posted this gif while anticipating TS_comments about to reveal the "Truth" once-and-for-all proving that a DWD patient gave his life for MJ's hoax?
(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
Enjoying the show, smiling and eating popcorn..? News about a DWD patient dying isn't entertainment. I do not agree that all the dots connect.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 02, 2012, 09:59:01 AM
Answers were given by TS with its arguments. Using a patient DWD, is simple and applicable to the hoax, and in fact, we "challenges" to present solid evidence against this theory. If there already have been filed, or not?
The debate continues, and if TS can be misleading or not, I do not know, that might only be that the theory of using a patient DWD, does not fit the image we have of MJ, or religious beliefs or simply not agree.
We may never know our power was truly like desarrolo of deception, but even if the FBI was the executor. For my theory is accepted from the beginning, and TS says I rest my case. :bearhug:
I have no problem with that. The DWD patient perfectly fits my image of MJ and even my religious beliefs. Bible describes many hoaxes that were for a good cause.
Post by: Loveunited on December 02, 2012, 10:11:33 AM
First of all, THANK YOU TS, for posting...At this point DWD does make sense as the main barrier, that is 'legalities' has been cleared.
So the essence of your post is...
- a dwd patient used.
- FBI actively involved in the sting.
- A sting not just an artistic one, involves serious criminal investigation.
- FBI and MJ shared their responsibilities in setting up this hoax.
---------
TS:QuoteHowever, in some case, it’s true that I actually do not know for sure what happened; I said very early, that I don’t know everything about the hoax. And in this case, I do not know exactly what the FBI agents told the DWD patient—nor does MJ himself know, for that matter. And most likely, the FBI is not going to disclose those kind of details to anyone.
If the FBI did 'say' anything to the DWD patient (which would probably relate to the hoax/sting, i guess), wouldn't that again violate CA law? Because the FBI is actually talking with this patient regarding the hoax/sting.
Another point which i have raised earlier, some pages ago.
It's not guaranteed (at this point) that these DWD patients are Michael fans or admirers who would 'willingly' want to assist in the hoax, and be of a great help/significance in helping MJ and FBI in accomplishing their mission.
This DWD patient might also be any other guy, believing the media lies on Michael. ok If not Michael, why would the patient want to assist the FBI in carrying out their mission.
As it is not stated anywhere that the patient willingly agreed to be a part of the hoax, it gives room for the speculation that FBI might have convinced this patient to co-operate with them...This can violate the CA Law, as they would be providing 'advice'.
could anyone answer this for me....i posted this couple of days ago...
Hi Thriller,
The way I see this, the primary issue for the DWD person is their leaving this world behind. If the FBI presented options to this person as to the where/when of doing this while ascertaining theri continued wish to be be DWD patient, and they CONSENT, and take the prescribed medications to overdoes themselves as is required, I do not see this as providing "advice".
So we have a DWD who wants to leave this world. We separately have the FBI with a need for a body to be identified as Michael JOSEPH Jackson. And we have a collaboration which results in both outcomes.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 02, 2012, 10:24:17 AM
As has happened many times in the past, I think sometimes we misinterpret what is being said...not just what TS says but also each other.
TS:
Quote
And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Notice what TS is comparing here....which is indicated AFTER the 'than', as with any instance of comparing two things. He did NOT say "no greater risk than using a real body/corpse/DWD patient". I interpret his statement as meaning IF they had to switch to Plan C....a dummy would have been no greater risk than what WE had already outlined as the risks in using one. Not sure if that makes sense.
As for Front's post...of course, it would be best for him to answer that. But, despite 'thinking' that a DWD patient was used, many of us WERE excited about TS' upcoming post. I don't think anyone, including Mike/Front/TS, would be 'excited' about a corpse....and I don't think that's what Front's excitement was about. I think the focus of the excitement was that Level 7 was about to come to a close....and he was perhaps enjoying our reactions/anticipation.
Again, this is just my interpretation and of course, I may be completely wrong lol. I do, however, think that many times we impose our interpretation of stuff TS says, when in fact he either said or meant something completely different. Kinda like with him ending it with a quote that he 'may' play devil's advocate. Some interpret that as meaning he still might be, even now with the DWD theory....but it can also be interpreted as him telling us that he never said he would, only that he 'may', since this was mentioned a few times by a few members.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 02, 2012, 11:16:27 AM
As has happened many times in the past, I think sometimes we misinterpret what is being said...not just what TS says but also each other.
TS:QuoteAnd in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Notice what TS is comparing here....which is indicated AFTER the 'than', as with any instance of comparing two things. He did NOT say "no greater risk than using a real body/corpse/DWD patient". I interpret his statement as meaning IF they had to switch to Plan C....a dummy would have been no greater risk than what WE had already outlined as the risks in using one. Not sure if that makes sense.
Oh yes, I agree, the devil is in the details and the details are in the second part of that sentence, as you rightfully pointed out, the portion of the sentence after the "than". I said something about that part earlier and I'll just quote myself:
Quote
If a dummy could be used with no greater risk, why not use one? I don't understand. If TS_comments doesn't agree with "many on this thread", then why did he use this 3rd option as support for the DWD patient? So then he does agree with "many on this thread" that using a dummy carries no greater risk then using a DWD patient; if the DWD patients back out they'll just use a dummy, no problem?
TS_comments said this in conjunction with "proving" the DWD theory, as in; here are the 3 layers of protection for using a DWD patient ("use", ugh). 3 layers of protection: layer one, first DWD patient-->he drops out last minute, bring in layer two, 2nd DWD patient-->he drops out last minute as well, bring in layer 3, a dummy?? Huh?
If TS_comments does not agree with "many on this thread" that the dummy option carries "no greater risk" then why did he include it in his own layers of protection in an attempt to prove his theory?
I wouldn't use "proof" I didn't agree with/didn't make sense to me when trying to validate a theory. At least not if I wanted it to be seriously considered. That would be sloppy investigative work and to say the least, TS_comments never struck me as sloppy.
Using logic, TS_comments does agree with "many on this thread" that the dummy carries "no greater risk" then a DWD patient, else he would not have used it to support his theory. Further use of logic causes me to continue to question this "Truth" that a DWD patient was involved in MJ's hoax, I'll explain. If a dummy could replace a DWD patient then this means that a real person's body was not necessary for success of the project. And if it wasn't necessary... why would they go through the trouble of involving this alleged additional person? Why would they go through the trouble of ensuring this person died with a timing that supported the numerology when using a dummy was a viable option?
I think we are being constantly redirected purposefully and I think this is part of, if not the point of, the game.
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 02, 2012, 11:18:24 AM
Post by: jono on December 02, 2012, 11:22:42 AM
As has happened many times in the past, I think sometimes we misinterpret what is being said...not just what TS says but also each other.
TS:QuoteAnd in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
Notice what TS is comparing here....which is indicated AFTER the 'than', as with any instance of comparing two things. He did NOT say "no greater risk than using a real body/corpse/DWD patient". I interpret his statement as meaning IF they had to switch to Plan C....a dummy would have been no greater risk than what WE had already outlined as the risks in using one. Not sure if that makes sense.
Oh yes, I agree, the devil is in the details and the details are in the second part of that sentence, as you rightfully pointed out, the portion of the sentence after the "than". I said something about that part earlier and I'll just quote myself:QuoteIf a dummy could be used with no greater risk, why not use one? I don't understand. If TS_comments doesn't agree with "many on this thread", then why did he use this 3rd option as support for the DWD patient? So then he does agree with "many on this thread" that using a dummy carries no greater risk then using a DWD patient; if the DWD patients back out they'll just use a dummy, no problem?
TS_comments said this in conjunction with "proving" the DWD theory, as in; here are the 3 layers of protection for using a DWD patient ("use", ugh). 3 layers of protection: layer one, first DWD patient-->he drops out last minute, bring in layer two, 2nd DWD patient-->he drops out last minute as well, bring in layer 3, a dummy?? Huh?
If TS_comments does not agree with "many on this thread" that the dummy option carries "no greater risk" then why did he include it in his own layers of protection in an attempt to prove his theory?
I wouldn't use "proof" I didn't agree with/didn't make sense to me when trying to validate a theory. At least not if I wanted it to be seriously considered. That would be sloppy investigative work and to say the least, TS_comments never struck me as sloppy.
Using logic, TS_comments does agree with "many on this thread" that the dummy carries "no greater risk" then a DWD patient, else he would not have used it to support his theory. Further use of logic causes me to continue to question this "Truth" that a DWD patient was involved in MJ's hoax, I'll explain. If a dummy could replace a DWD patient then this means that a real person's body was not necessary for success of the project. And if it wasn't necessary... why would they go through the trouble of involving this alleged additional person? Why would they go through the trouble of ensuring this person died with a timing that supported the numerology when using a dummy was a viable option?
I think we are being constantly redirected purposefully and I think this is part of, if not the point of, the game.
:th_bravo:
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 02, 2012, 11:28:43 AM
I am not saying with any conviction that Michael helped any family make that decision, but that I can see it being a good enough reason for a person in that state of emotional/financial crisis to accept real kindness in retrospect. There are no losers. There is no sacrifice. The family gets to see their loved one end their needless suffering and the rest is history. Never speak of it again. Just count the blessings. I am in no way trying to persuade anyone else to see this as possible; but asserting that nothing can convince me that the DWD option is unrealistic. Though it is not the only option by any means, it is still a very viable one IMO.
http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/michael-jackson#related-news (http://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/michael-jackson#related-news)
Michael Jackson Charity Work, Events and Causes
Michael Jackson wrote “We Are The World” with Lionel Richie in 1985 and performed it as part of an all-star single to raise money for Africa in 1985.
The Millennium-Issue of the “Guinness Book Of Records” names Michael as the “Pop Star who supports the most charity organizations”, according to JacksonAction.com, which has an extensive timeline of Jackson’s charity work.
In 1984, Jackson equiped a 19-bed-unit at Mount Senai New York Medical Center. This center is part of the T.J. Martell-Foundation for leukemia and cancer research. Later in the year, he visited the Brotman Memorial Hospital, where he had been treated when he was burned very badly during the producing of a Pepsi commercial. He donated all the money he received from Pepsi, $1.5 million, to the Michael Jackson Burn Center for Children.
In 1986, he set up the “Michael Jackson United Negro College Fund Endowed Scholarship Fund”. This $1.5 million fund is aimed towards students majoring in performance art and communications, with money given each year to students attending a UNCF member college or university.
He donated the proceeds from the sales of The Man In The Mirror to Camp Ronald McDonald for Good Times, a camp for children who suffer from cancer.
Jackson donated tickets to shows in is 1989 Bad Tour to underprivileged children. The proceeds from one of his shows in Los Angeles were donated to Childhelp USA, the biggest charity-organization against child-abuse. Childhelp of Southern California then established the “Michael Jackson International Institute for Research On Child Abuse”.
In 1992, he established the Heal The World Foundation, whose work has included airlifting 6 tons of supplies to Sarajevo, instituting drug and alcohol abuse education and donating millions of dollars to less fortunate children.
Copyright © 2012 Look to the Stars, All rights reserved.
Please also see our 40 past articles about Michael Jackson
Charities & foundations supported (18)
Michael Jackson has supported the following charities:
AIDS Project Los Angeles
American Cancer Society
Big Brothers Big Sisters
Boys & Girls Clubs of America
Childhelp USA
Children's Defense Fund
Cure4Lupus
Elizabeth Taylor AIDS Foundation
End Hunger Network
Great Ormond Street Hospital
Jane Goodall Institute
JDRF
Make-A-Wish Foundation
Prince's Trust
Ronald McDonald House Charities
Starlight Children's Foundation
TJ Martell Foundation
United Negro College Fund
Post by: bec on December 02, 2012, 11:35:52 AM
I don't question the DWD theory because of ethics or morality, several others have echoed the same sentiment repeatedly. I don't know how many different ways those of us who are questioning this can say that. There's seems to be a fixation on questioners having an issue with the morality of DWD and it is distracting from the real debate (/conversation/discussion).
The morality is not in question. The logistics of the theory are.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 02, 2012, 11:39:11 AM
And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
If a dummy could be used with no greater risk, why not use one? I don't understand. If TS_comments doesn't agree with "many on this thread", then why did he use this 3rd option as support for the DWD patient? So then he does agree with "many on this thread" that using a dummy carries no greater risk then using a DWD patient; if the DWD patients back out they'll just use a dummy, no problem?
Could anyone who believes TS_comments and supports the DWD patient theory explain this supportive evidence that he presented? Can anyone make sense of this? If a dummy is a viable ' emergency plan C', then why is it necessary to use a real person who just died at all?
Also, why did this person need an alleged date of death if they really did die on 6/25/09?
Also, lastly but not at all leastly...
can anyone hypothesize why Front posted this gif while anticipating TS_comments about to reveal the "Truth" once-and-for-all proving that a DWD patient gave his life for MJ's hoax?(http://www.sowal.com/bb/images/smilies/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif)
Enjoying the show, smiling and eating popcorn..? News about a DWD patient dying isn't entertainment. I do not agree that all the dots connect.
Bec I think you have misunderstood Front's gif because he posted it before TS started to explain us why DWD patient could fit in the hoax, Front posted his gif just after Adi asked: "Still no TS?
Maybe he is waiting for the right time to post...like 11:29 ?" Check it on page 127, and after some of us were asking about Mr. Joe Jackson's stroke (on the other thread) where somebody wrote something like: please Michael give us a sign that your father's stroke is not true and he is doing well, so that's why I understood that Front's gif with himself eating popcorn and smiling was due to he was enjoying while reading our posts where we were expecting TS' replies so badly, so this way he was confirming us that Mr. Joe Jackson was doing well and haven't had any stroke, IMHO (forgive me Michael if I am wrong and it has been true your father's stroke).
Post by: bec on December 02, 2012, 11:55:26 AM
Post by: BeTheChange on December 02, 2012, 12:19:42 PM
I just think that IF the FBI is involved (and many signs point to that)....there would've been NO way that they'd advise Mike to do ANYTHING that day that could compromise the mission....a mission MANY years in the making. Thinking along those lines...there are SO many things that could've gone wrong with using a dummy or having Mike play the part himself. Of course, using a DWD patient/corpse carries risk too...as would ANY option used that day. But when everything is factored in....a corpse DOES pose the least amount of risk and it DOES involve having the least amount of people in on it. The greatest risk, IMO, would be that someone recognizes that 'it' doesn't look like Mike. Well, that DID happen (whether or not the convo between Blount and the stalker fan actually happened doesn't even matter...what matters is that it was widely reported that Blount DID say that and no one even blinked).
I know some just don't see the 'logic' of it all....and that's fine, we're not all going to agree. We can keep discussing it til the cows come home and we won't be able to figure it all out until after BAM...and maybe not even fully then. Maybe the whole thing has been one huge mindf*ck and the FBI isn't even involved lol....but that would contradict a whole lot of what happened....a slew of 'dots' along the way point to FBI involvement. And if the FBI IS involved, then I can definitely see the 'logic' in them choosing a corpse over a dummy and/or Live MJ (again, based on all the reasons already discussed by many).
Again, I have NO clue what happened 'that day'...just trying to make sense of things like everyone else. But the fact remains that IF a dummy OR Live MJ was actually used, the 'script' DID call for a hospice patient theory to be in the mix (for some strange reason) WAY before TS even showed up on the scene (refer back to BOTH EMT's testimonies of 'that day'). I can't figure out a 'logical' reason WHY the script would call for EMT's who were in the know (and they would have to be if EITHER a dummy or Live MJ was used)...to make it seem like ANYTHING other than Mike was dying or dead 'that day', when the whole point of June 25th was to make the world believe that Mike had, in fact, died.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 02, 2012, 12:32:36 PM
I don't see the problem with a DWD patient. The patient was dying, and was going to die soon. If the patient was going to agree to participate in the DWD program, then maybe they wanted to help Michael out. Michael explained to them the reason for hoaxing his death and the person agreed to it. Michael/FBI would NOT have forced the DWD patient to do this, obviously. They could've easily said no.
Furthermore as per TS Michael only could chose date and time the rest was ONLY FBI's issues, so please AGAIN don't blame Michael in case a DWD patient was used in this hoax, DWD patient was gonna die anyway and what they did was lengthened his life some more days.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 02, 2012, 12:32:50 PM
Also, why did this person need an alleged date of death if they really did die on 6/25/09?
Remembering back to reports that were made on and following 6/25/09, I remember it being said that the temperature in the bedroom was extremely high. This of course would only confirm to most that Michael was “sick” as had been alleged by many of his fans around him during those last days; saying that he was dressed at rehearsals in layers and layers of clothes, always cold, etc. (to me, he seemed to be wearing some kind of protective shield rather than lots of clothing) Anyway, time of death on scene is usually determined by how quickly the body cools down. If the room is excessively hot, the body temperature would not drop normally. That being the case, the body could have been kept preserved until just the right time for the hoax to begin. Recalling that the paramedics actually asserted that they did not get a pulse, etc. but kept up appearances for Katherine’s sake and did not call the death until she reached UCLA, it would be an alleged date as well as an alleged time of death. No one really knows because there were too many incidentals involving time parameters. On the other hand, if people are willing to accept and believe that a fresh Michael Jackson was buried almost 3 months after death then anything is possible. :smiley-vault-misc-150:
I am still waiting for someone to confirm if there were 2 ambulances seen at different times at the residence on 6/25. If that was the case, possibly one was to bring the body to Carolwood and the other to remove it. So alleged date could mean that this body deceased prior to 12:00 a.m. on 6/25/09 but could not be verified positively because the room was so hot. Has anyone ever thought that maybe a body and a dummy were used interchangeably; the body for the purpose of the paramedics, hospital, etc. and a dummy for photos and as needed? I ask because of the physical discrepancies given by people who testified.
Post by: MJonmind on December 02, 2012, 12:36:19 PM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430596.html#msg430596
Bec, well now that you connect Front’s gif posted RIGHT before TS’s response and proofs (I don't believe connected to Joe's health), that does add a distinct measure of ‘playing with us’ before ‘snapping his fingers’ and then bam. I’ll admit my initial response to TS adding the disclaimer at the bottom of ‘playing devil’s advocate’ was the same thing as putting in ‘alleged’ twice in the courtroom. And the purpose of that ‘alleged’ was to nullify the previous judgement of CM being ‘Guilty’ of manslaughter. Not far away from my mind is the alternative pronunciation of ‘man’s laughter’. I really don’t know what to do with all this except to ‘Keep watching’. It ain’t over till it’s over. We’re not going to wring a clearer answer from TS until he’s ready to do so. Afterall, maybe he doesn’t want anyone to leave here upset that it was a DWD patient or because the riddle is solved/investigation over, yet he wants to keep the edge/controversy going to keep things red hot. Red hot has generally been MJ’s modus operandi. The basis of many a thriller movie is that the audience is led to think one way throughout and wham they’re hit with a totally different reason/’reality’ that was going on. Which reminds me that if this is Thriller 2 here and MJ’s eating popcorn in the theatre showing Thriller and MJ-werewolf, then it’s a show within a show, within a show and the ending leaves you happy but uncertain.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-6j_ha0QajE/SkRQs2GhAtI/AAAAAAAACAw/hhzC2_hj8uE/s400/dibujo_thriller-1p.jpg)
I lean towards DWD being what happened, but the 3rd dummy option keeps any 'others' reading here besides us, some measure of safe uncertainty. Perhaps that's how MJ's kept his enemies at bay all these years, especially as he worked closely and directly with even those who could be secretly out to destroy him if they see a crack of opportunity somewhere. He is a master chess player, even with us. But you're not mad at him for doing this, are you, Bec?
Or if I was a bystander watching a game of logic between two debaters, from my vantage it seems that the logic for the DWD seems a little more supported than for the dummy. My biggest personal reason for wishing he had not used a DWD is because of the, you said the word 'using' him and his death, and 'using' sounds selfish and MJ needs to clear negative monster images out of the public's mind. But then that's emotions, and emotions should not be the determining factor. We humans have been conditioned by all kinds of cultural and religious influences for thousands of years.
Post by: Sarahli on December 02, 2012, 12:41:23 PM
And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
He still said that he considers the DWD patient to be a much lower risk than a dummy:
Nevertheless, although I have never worked for the FBI in any capacity, yet it is my personal assessment that DWD is a much lower risk than a dummy. I have already gone over the appearance confusing factors with MJ, as well as with the DWD patient, so I won’t repeat them now; and I have already mentioned that reports of a patient, who does not look like MJ, would not spoil the hoax—since that actually happened, and nobody cared. And even if someone had a serious problem with a real patient, that did not look like MJ, it would be easy to explain that the real patient was a distraction factor—since real patients are readily available at UCLA, any time of any day.
Therefore my understanding is that TS doesn't work for the FBI lol and that he doesn't know how the FBI planned all of this in detail. He is bringing forward a theory like us. If the 2 patients backed out and there wasn't enough time left to have a 3rd one and the Hoax having to start they must have had an emergency plan C because it couldn't happen another day, it absolutely had to be that day. So in the last resort they would use a dummy and adapt a proper protocol. Which could have maybe not included the UCLA ride for example. This is just a big ASSumption here but it's just to give an idea of how the scenario would change if a dummy had been used instead of a DWD patient.
I think that “alleged victim” and “alleged date” cover both the DWD patient and the fact that it wasn’t MJ as everybody was thinking. Therefore the date too had to be alleged.
Post by: bec on December 02, 2012, 12:44:45 PM
He is a master chess player, even with us. But you're not mad at him for doing this, are you, Bec?
No, it's part of the game I signed up for.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 02, 2012, 12:47:34 PM
Hmm, sunset. It's possible. But if that were the case, I wonder why he didn't post it on the thread(s) devoted to the news reports of Joe's stroke? There were many people on those threads wondering if it were true and hoping these were false reports and wishing Mr. Jackson the best just in case. Yet he came to the TIAI thread where we are predominantly tossing around the DWD theory and waiting for TS, who supports the DWD theory, to post the completion of Level 7, to give us a sign that reports of Joe's stroke was BS? Most of us think TS/TS_comments?Front all work for the same team, Front must have known what TS_comments was about to post... so I don't know.
He posted on the TS thread because we were talking about Mr. Jackson's stroke on TS thread too plus the impatience we were having expecting TS' replies, Front killed two birds with one stone.
Post by: MJonmind on December 02, 2012, 12:52:03 PM
Post by: bec on December 02, 2012, 01:09:45 PM
Good, because I've been enjoying all this immensely! And boy can I ever smell smoke from all the brains fired up and working hard! :icon_lol:
Yah me too. I really dig this stuff.
I wear my heart on my sleeve, it's a character flaw, but I wouldn't trade this journey for anything.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 02, 2012, 01:25:05 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on December 02, 2012, 03:32:05 PM
It is truly thought provoking and fascinating. I’m enjoying it too, Bec :icon_e_wink:+1 :icon_e_wink:
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 02, 2012, 05:23:39 PM
It's actually funny to see the progression of things here....human nature at its finest. People have constantly asked TS to 'help' us figure stuff out, which he has repeatedly done. So, he helps by giving us supporting evidence in favor of the corpse theory, while showing some points against other theories....ALL of which everyone was free to then research on their own, without taking his word for it. Reaction: People don't believe him.
With respect BTC, I'm beginning to think it is not a negative thing. TS encouraged us in the past (can't find the quote) to doubt and not trust him in order to find truth. (not verbatim)
He encouraged this reaction.
Edit: BTC, I saw your comment re: encourage us to doubt him, on top of page 137 after I did this post :icon_e_wink:
Quote
It doesn't matter one bit what our personal views are about a DWD patient having been used....nor does it matter if we believe this is what happened or not. And that's all that keeps getting posted by those who don't believe TS....page after page of personal opinions and NO solid evidence against anything TS said.
Again, with respect. a) TS can't provide solid proof of body either. b) He precursored it with DA.
Also the disagreement with body theory (speaking for me anyways) has nothing to do with DWD opinion. Its about the doubt that has been created / encouraged by TS combined with no conclusive 'evidence' to eliminate entirely other theories or substantiate his theories. They are all just theories still with no solid evidence. Which I might add, 'evidence' or rather the 'lack of' has been a running theme through this entire hoax.
Moving on to Bec's comment previously that "The purpose isn't to find out what happened". It then makes me wonder if the (TS's) purpose is to simply create a split / multiple groups of people holding to their theories, for the simple reason of a) MJ's delight in us not knowing what really happened. You know, post Bam and all that, and you still have groups of people racking their brains how it was done. b) 'A magician never reveals his tricks' to maintain some mystery about how he did it. (Trademark MJ)
If a corpse, body, dummy, live MJ was used, it is inconsequential to 'how hoaxers feel' ... its all the same goal - entertainment / Mystery
It seems that the old 'have-everybody-in-on-it' cop out clause has been replaced by an 'it-was-FBI-so-we'll-never-understand' excuse, when facing the unexplainable.[/size] I'm not trying to be awkward here, I really am stuck. I'll shut up now!
@ Curls, agree with you. FBI involvement card is justification for everything / anything as well as a "shut down" for any non-explainables.
I do agree that MJ has friends in high places. The PR photos speak for themselves. Personally I am very iffy on FBI and Obama involvement. (If I am wrong, then so be it)
MJ is the master the driver if you will. He is in control and no doubt we know MJ is ALWAYS the star of the show. It just raised questions for me such as, : If this is for entertainment purposes, Thriller II, greatest show on earth etc, would MJ want to source the assistance of FBI / Obama? Historically, MJ is a one man show. If this was for entertainment purposes, wouldn't Obama involvement for Obama himself be risky (PR wise)?
However IT does sound logical, and IT does sound like MJ to have lots of uncertainty surrounding him all different tangents going off at once to create mystery and secrecy and keep us watching. MJ has never in the past said, oh "I was faking it in the wheel chair" or "Let me explain this publicity stunt" or "Ok, I'll reveal how I manipulated you here" He has always left us guessing.
I think the purpose of the whole dummy / Live MJ / body / FBI / clues and guessing game is to create confusion, uncertainty and preserve mystery. We don't know all of what happenned 25/6 but we do KNOW it is what MJ does. (Confusion / Uncertainty) It's why ppl are still talking about Pepsi incident in 2012. It's why we still talk about the hyperbaric chamber, its why people say he was frail and deathly around TII and yet others say in immaculate health and form.
Deliberate confusion. That is all.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 02, 2012, 05:47:19 PM
I seriously think we've all passed that period when he was teaching us to think for ourselves!
With respect Sim, I don't think that lesson EVER has an expiry date...
As Paris once said: "Why can't you just believe!?"
Again, with respect, "So we should believe everything TS, The Jackson Family say, when all together everything that different family members say amongst themselves and then further combined with what TS says is all contradiction of each other? I believe her comment is simply regarding MJ not being dead. Not about theories or TS or even what family say because it's all a jumble.
1. I highly doubt that TS is only playing with us right now! There's no tIME left for games and for "lessons" now!
@Sim, one could argue that this is the ideal time to 'play' with us - to cause the very disturbance that is now apparent .... before the climax! Can't be having us all quietly sitting here drumming our fingers! But I'm not going to labour the point! What happened happened, what will be will be. My thoughts, and those of anyone else here, make not one jot of difference in the great scheme of things.
(http://www.robot44.com/pics/ttl/ka-ching.gif)
@ curls. I think you are spot on. Perfect time to create FRESH doubt / uncertainty. Breathe new life into old theories.
Afterall he mentioned it recently that he might lead us down the wrong path or verify things that didn't really happen. I am guessing if one was just about to serve answers on a silver platter, you don't deliberately create doubt just before you get the answers... It like hearing your teacher give out the answers at the end of a test so you can grade yourself, (like in elementary school) and the teacher says "Ok, the correct answer question to the algebra question MIGHT be "8" " LOL
:icon_mrgreen:
Bec
Quote
There are people here who supported the dead body theory or the DWD theory, why didn't he ask them to lay out their reasons?
I tend to think that Body theory was the least popular and naturally most controversial. TS laying out answers for Body theory has given body theory new life, more popularity and now there are people who believe body theory that didn't before, they were solid on other theories. Goal: Confusion / uncertainty. Result: Achieved!
Sounds like our MJ huh?
Why did we ever think TS was going to give us answers on the correct theory (dummy / live or whatever it may be) Of course he is going to give us the answers on the false theory... Trademark MJ - Manipulate / Play with audience..
The more I think of it the more sense it makes that he would confirm an incorrect theory! (That's if one believes MJ is behind TS or at the least someone from MJ camp)
Meh, I reconcile TS body theory confirmation with "It's all a game / entertainment" and is more than likely another 'falsehood' which is "allowed" in the rules of entertainment / art / ARG.
Re: Heart on sleeve. It's not a flaw. It's honesty. I am much the same :icon_e_wink:
Post by: BeTheChange on December 02, 2012, 05:51:45 PM
As for MJ having pulled all this off on his own (cause 'he's a one-man show'), without the help of some high-ranking govt office(s), IMO, is the 'loftiest' theory yet when ALL the events of the last 3 1/2 years are taken into account. But I guess anything's possible.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 02, 2012, 05:56:51 PM
@Aussie...thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have shared mine in many, many posts lol...so I'm not going to rehash it all again (this back and forth over the SAME points is getting tiring, at least for me). But will say that you've taken some things I've said out of context...i.e. I never said that disagreeing was a 'negative' thing, in fact, I said the complete opposite in a further post...perhaps you missed it.
I know hun. I just edited my post before you did this post above. Please see edit note on my post.
Na not taking it out of context. Never said *you said* it was a negative thing. I was thinking to me "perhaps its not a negative thing" because of reason X that TS gave in the past.
:smiley_abuv:
It is tiring. I'm not intending to debate. Trust me don't have the energy, not up for it as its stinking hot here in Australia, LOL. I'm more commenting that perhaps the "debate / uncertainty" is the purpose rather than "solving it".
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 02, 2012, 06:00:18 PM
As for MJ having pulled all this off on his own (cause 'he's a one-man show'), without the help of some high-ranking govt office(s), IMO, is the 'loftiest' theory yet when ALL the events of the last 3 1/2 years are taken into account. But I guess anything's possible.
Agree he would need resources and resources with pull. Absolutely court / UCLA / Autopsy perhaps or perhaps not. I find Obama / FBI far fetched. If hoax plans started in Bad era, how could he have known who was going to be president in hoax period? Again, happy to be wrong. If I am, I am ok with that.
LOVE YOU MJ - THANKS FOR THE SHOW!!!! :bearhug:
Post by: BeTheChange on December 02, 2012, 06:05:14 PM
Ya, very tiring and I'm one of the ones 'okay' with the corpse theory lol, go figure. If it is all just for confusion/distraction, we do it to ourselves...and we've become masters at it :icon_lol:
Be grateful for the heat...I'm freezing my a$$ off here!
:smiley_abuv:
Edit: This time I saw your post before sending mine lol. I'm not convinced of an Obama connection either...but I do think there's been several pieces pointing to FBI involvement.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 02, 2012, 06:08:49 PM
Hmm, sunset. It's possible. But if that were the case, I wonder why he didn't post it on the thread(s) devoted to the news reports of Joe's stroke? There were many people on those threads wondering if it were true and hoping these were false reports and wishing Mr. Jackson the best just in case. Yet he came to the TIAI thread where we are predominantly tossing around the DWD theory and waiting for TS, who supports the DWD theory, to post the completion of Level 7, to give us a sign that reports of Joe's stroke was BS? Most of us think TS/TS_comments?Front all work for the same team, Front must have known what TS_comments was about to post... so I don't know.
OMG OMG OMG now I actually GET the popcorn pic.... Its all making sense.... TS confirmed wrong theory deliberately! I think you are right Bec...
I was the one who suggested popcorn pic was confirmation Joe was ok, and what the hell would I know?!?! (But no didn't ask for a sign)
P.s Sorry for post bombing this thread peeps. Pls forgive. x
Post by: SimPattyK on December 02, 2012, 06:45:20 PM
Yet you quote me today.... and I'm not gonna reply to that.
I just don't like endless contradictions, I don't like where this is going to.
I hope we can both continue to post on this thread our own different opinions without any of that ^^
@Curls said very well earlier today: "What happened happened, what will be will be. My thoughts, and those of anyone else here, make not one jot of difference in the great scheme of things."
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 02, 2012, 06:51:21 PM
@Aussie: With respect, I think we agreed to disagree... the other day...
Yet you quote me today.... and I'm not gonna reply to that.
Hun, that's what we do on the forum we quote and reply. It's not malicious. I was pointing out that there is a counter viewpoint to "thinking for yourself" I can assure you I am being genuine. If anyone else had made the comment I would have quoted it. I mean no harm.
Quote
I hope we can both continue to post on this thread our own different opinions without any of that ^^
Sim, You're the queen of quote / repsond. (not being facetious) That's why I thought you'd be ok with that style of interaction. But if I am getting that you are not ok with it then I'll be more careful how I interact with you and be more sensitive.
:bearhug:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 02, 2012, 06:52:57 PM
NO comment!
Post by: Adi on December 02, 2012, 07:30:51 PM
The popcorn gif Front posted here ......I just took it as him being a smart a*se and making fun of so many of us waiting in anticipation for TS to post...some had been hanging on all day lol.....if it does mean something else then maybe I am just cold hearted and didn't read it that way..
We could go round and round and round for ever with these musings....could be another Level perhaps :icon_lol: except I don't have any remaining energy to try to work out what that popcorn gif meant :icon_lol: :over-react-smiley:
Post by: bec on December 02, 2012, 07:56:19 PM
Hmm, sunset. It's possible. But if that were the case, I wonder why he didn't post it on the thread(s) devoted to the news reports of Joe's stroke? There were many people on those threads wondering if it were true and hoping these were false reports and wishing Mr. Jackson the best just in case. Yet he came to the TIAI thread where we are predominantly tossing around the DWD theory and waiting for TS, who supports the DWD theory, to post the completion of Level 7, to give us a sign that reports of Joe's stroke was BS? Most of us think TS/TS_comments?Front all work for the same team, Front must have known what TS_comments was about to post... so I don't know.
OMG OMG OMG now I actually GET the popcorn pic.... Its all making sense.... TS confirmed wrong theory deliberately! I think you are right Bec...
I was the one who suggested popcorn pic was confirmation Joe was ok, and what the hell would I know?!?! (But no didn't ask for a sign)
P.s Sorry for post bombing this thread peeps. Pls forgive. x
Don't apologize, rather, please continue. It's a message board. What kind of place would it be if people all posted one time and then left?? A no fun place that's what kind.
MAYBE that's what the popcorn gif was about, yes, sure, maybe he waiting to see our reaction to this allegedly contrived theory and was looking forward to it. I think we can all agree that he wasn't happily chomping popcorn over the prospects of the dearly departed being officially introduced to his dear hoaxers for the first time, that's for sure.
On the topic of FBI involvement and the signs for that, the only sign that I can think of off the top of my head is the 7 files and 333 pages of FBI files released on 12/21/09. I agree one key person needed to be cooperating with MJ to make that happen. Also, I agree that the FBI may have been contacted to grant clearance and give permission (basically) for some aspects of the hoax, court being one of them I would imagine. But as far as the FBI conducting a sting, is there anyone who supports this theory who can provide a list of reasons, or signs, of an FBI sting operation like I did for the LiveMJ theory?
Post by: bec on December 02, 2012, 08:05:07 PM
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 02, 2012, 11:10:49 PM
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 02, 2012, 11:42:56 PM
Post by: Adi on December 02, 2012, 11:44:28 PM
Reading the DWD compliance forms and info on those links I have ascertained that it may take up to 4 hours for the DWD patient to die from the time the medication is ingested. So this must have been accounted for when the 911 call was made......or more importantly when the paramedics arrived on the scene to begin working on the patient. I recall TS asking us a while ago, to find out what is the longest time a patient has been "dead" and then resuscitated....somewhere in the forum is a link to an article that was found...it was around 2 hours (or a bit more) - I would have to go back and search for the thread to find it. Dr Richelle Cooper testified she did not know the time of death of the patient. Yes she "pronounced" it at 2:26 - but that does not equate to the actual time of death.
A DWD patient ended their own life and was not the victim of manslaughter, therefore they are an "alleged victim"of manslaughter. Since there was no manslaughter there also was no date for manslaughter to occur on......therefore it is an "alleged" date.
That is my interpretation of it.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 02, 2012, 11:58:38 PM
Hey all, ok, I have cracked the mystery....
Both Body theory / Live MJ theory apply!
"MJ did intravenous propofol to put him into a psuedo deathlike state (carolwood & Paramedics - Dead) later wakes up (UCLA and beyond - Alive) - ala Juliet / Shakespeare style...
:thjajaja121: :thjajaja121: :thjajaja121:
Sorry couldn't help myself. Meanwhile when you type in "Medication to induce deathlike state" Yahoo answers comes up with something interesting.
Click here http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101228104153AAKjufz
Pretty funny considering that some of the answers (from general non believing public) regarding medication that makes you appear dead, mentions our MJ along with propofol...
:affraid:
..... ok I am hearing crickets......
I'll get out of here. Starting to get silly...
:icon_rolleyes: :icon_bounce: :icon_lol: :icon_mrgreen:
Post by: bec on December 03, 2012, 12:07:43 AM
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 03, 2012, 12:27:13 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjTuYsy7NKg[/youtube]
Lol ignore face at the end, someone has obviously played around with it for giggles.
Post by: ellyd on December 03, 2012, 12:54:00 AM
Post by: emulik on December 03, 2012, 02:18:21 AM
Furthermore as per TS Michael only could chose date and time the rest was ONLY FBI's issues, so please AGAIN don't blame Michael in case a DWD patient was used in this hoax, DWD patient was gonna die anyway and what they did was lengthened his life some more days.agree with you, sweetsunset! I can`t see the problem with DWD patient (if that is true), it is legal in some countries, so if it was someone`s decision to die bacause he was very ill (without a chance to get well), that person would did that anyway. It is almost like a salvation for some long dying persons (no more pain and suffering). But I see that it can be a hard thing to discuss for someone because of religion reasons.
Post by: bugsy on December 03, 2012, 02:21:31 AM
Post by: MJonmind on December 03, 2012, 02:22:09 AM
Chris Angel slowing his heart rate right down, I can buy, but not stopping. Elvis said he did that (with training) while laying on the bathroom floor waiting to be discovered. MJ had plenty of friends who could help him master this art of slowing his heart, and yes we've talked of various substances that could put one into a death-like state, a while back. Especially interesting was the report we were given that UCLA was known to be the hospital that could bring people back from the dead, and I remember thinking could MJ have taken such a huge risk, a death-defying Houdini feat?
Adi
Quote
Yes - true that about the rigor mortis bec. So if they wanted to avoid the onset of rigor mortis then a DWD patient possibly took the medication closer to when everything was about to begin.Yeah I wondered why TS would ask a question like that. Clearly the most wonderful option would be if MJ actually had his heart stop, and then get a Guinness World Record of longest time dead before resuscitation--I guess more than 2 hours! :icon_razz: Well, Jesus was just under 3 days so that's hard to beat. :icon_rolleyes:
Reading the DWD compliance forms and info on those links I have ascertained that it may take up to 4 hours for the DWD patient to die from the time the medication is ingested. So this must have been accounted for when the 911 call was made......or more importantly when the paramedics arrived on the scene to begin working on the patient. I recall TS asking us a while ago, to find out what is the longest time a patient has been "dead" and then resuscitated....somewhere in the forum is a link to an article that was found...it was around 2 hours (or a bit more) - I would have to go back and search for the thread to find it. Dr Richelle Cooper testified she did not know the time of death of the patient. Yes she "pronounced" it at 2:26 - but that does not equate to the actual time of death.
As far as length of time for the pills to take effect for DWD, I posted this story link earlier.
Quote
Erika, an elderly nurse, knelt down in front of Kay in her wheelchair and asked, "Are you ready?"
Kay answered, "I sure am." After filling out more paperwork in the room where Kay was going to die, the family hugged and talked and reminisced. They took a photo of themselves on the deathbed, with Kay smiling, squeezed in the middle of her beloved family.
"No one was in a hurry for anything," Lee recalled.
She said Erika "lovingly" asked Kay what she would like to do, whether she would like to talk more.
"Mom said, 'No. Let's go. I'm ready.'"
After Kay swallowed the barbiturate, Erika put her hands on her knee and said: "Have a good journey, Kay. I'll see you on the other side."
Kay fell asleep and began to snore. When Horst said Kay could probably hear what they were saying, they began reminiscing about things their mother and father had done together.
Twenty minutes later, Horst said Kay had "left us."
Erika then opened the door of the room, saying she was "letting Kay's spirit leave."
The family sat for five minutes or more. Horst asked if anyone would like cognac.
"I'd love one," Lee answered.
"We weren't sad. Just tired. We all just thought, 'Oh my God, that was the most powerful experience we could ever imagine.'"
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/fyi/death-with-dignity-and-deceit-84838012.html
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 03, 2012, 03:14:55 AM
I vote for the corpse/ DWD patient theory.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 03, 2012, 03:30:28 AM
Post by: Snoopy71 on December 03, 2012, 04:09:41 AM
Post by: Adi on December 03, 2012, 04:10:42 AM
I don't even know what theory you guys support now. I think we should have a poll about it.
I vote for the corpse/ DWD patient theory.
Stay true to whatever it is you as an individual have interpreted the evidence as being. A poll won't make any difference to that. A majority doesn't mean it is true or correct. Use your own brain to choose whatever way you think.
At the end of the day whatever we conclude here either as a group or an individual does not change what went down that day anyway.
Post by: curls on December 03, 2012, 04:12:18 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_change
"In nearly all states, a person cannot choose a name that is intended to mislead (such as adopting a celebrity's name), that is intentionally confusing, or that incites violence; nor can one adopt, as a name, a racial slur, a threat, or an obscenity."
"In California the "usage method" (changing the name at will under common law) is sufficient to change the name. Not all jurisdictions require that the new name be used exclusively.[10] Any fraudulent use or intent, such as changing the name to the same name as another person's name, may invalidate this type of name change.
Specifically in California, Code of Civil Procedure § 1279.5 and Family Code § 2082 regulate common law and court decreed name changes. Code of Civil Procedure § 1279.5 (a) reads, "Except as provided in subdivision (b), (c), (d), or (e), nothing in this title shall be construed to abrogate the common law right of any person to change his or her name." Subdivisions b through e preclude one from changing their name by common law if they are in state prison, on probation, on parole, or been a convicted sex offender. If a person is not in any of these categories, then a common law name change is allowed. Family Code § 2082 also specifically states, "Nothing in this code shall be construed to abrogate the common law right of any person to change one's name."
So does this mean a DWD patient could call himself Michael Joseph Jackson - or not? Discuss!
Post by: BeTheChange on December 03, 2012, 05:08:43 AM
A DWD patient ended their own life and was not the victim of manslaughter, therefore they are an "alleged victim"of manslaughter. Since there was no manslaughter there also was no date for manslaughter to occur on......therefore it is an "alleged" date.
That is my interpretation of it.
Yes, Adi...that makes perfect sense. TS had asked us to think of what was alleged and what wasn't. It makes sense that anything following the charge of manslaughter, which wasn't alleged, would have to be 'alleged' since there was no victim of manslaughter and no manslaughter took place on June 25th. It also makes perfect sense that if the trial was only for a movie/entertainment purposes, there would've been absolutely no need to include the use of 'alleged' in the verdict.
And I wholeheartedly agree with what you said to Gina about sticking to what she believes (although Gina has always been very good at doing that lol...I've missed you Gina! :icon_razz:)....regardless of what others think or any poll results.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 03, 2012, 07:27:22 AM
I was just curious about what people think. I wouldn't change my opinion because of a poll.I don't even know what theory you guys support now. I think we should have a poll about it.
I vote for the corpse/ DWD patient theory.
Stay true to whatever it is you as an individual have interpreted the evidence as being. A poll won't make any difference to that. A majority doesn't mean it is true or correct. Use your own brain to choose whatever way you think.
At the end of the day whatever we conclude here either as a group or an individual does not change what went down that day anyway.
And I believed that theory from the beginning, right or wrong.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 03, 2012, 08:41:17 AM
It's actually funny to see the progression of things here....human nature at its finest. People have constantly asked TS to 'help' us figure stuff out, which he has repeatedly done. So, he helps by giving us supporting evidence in favor of the corpse theory, while showing some points against other theories....ALL of which everyone was free to then research on their own, without taking his word for it. Reaction: People don't believe him.
With respect BTC, I'm beginning to think it is not a negative thing. TS encouraged us in the past (can't find the quote) to doubt and not trust him in order to find truth. (not verbatim)
He encouraged this reaction.
Edit: BTC, I saw your comment re: encourage us to doubt him, on top of page 137 after I did this post :icon_e_wink:QuoteIt doesn't matter one bit what our personal views are about a DWD patient having been used....nor does it matter if we believe this is what happened or not. And that's all that keeps getting posted by those who don't believe TS....page after page of personal opinions and NO solid evidence against anything TS said.
Again, with respect. a) TS can't provide solid proof of body either. b) He precursored it with DA.
Also the disagreement with body theory (speaking for me anyways) has nothing to do with DWD opinion. Its about the doubt that has been created / encouraged by TS combined with no conclusive 'evidence' to eliminate entirely other theories or substantiate his theories. They are all just theories still with no solid evidence. Which I might add, 'evidence' or rather the 'lack of' has been a running theme through this entire hoax.
Moving on to Bec's comment previously that "The purpose isn't to find out what happened". It then makes me wonder if the (TS's) purpose is to simply create a split / multiple groups of people holding to their theories, for the simple reason of a) MJ's delight in us not knowing what really happened. You know, post Bam and all that, and you still have groups of people racking their brains how it was done. b) 'A magician never reveals his tricks' to maintain some mystery about how he did it. (Trademark MJ)
If a corpse, body, dummy, live MJ was used, it is inconsequential to 'how hoaxers feel' ... its all the same goal - entertainment / MysteryIt seems that the old 'have-everybody-in-on-it' cop out clause has been replaced by an 'it-was-FBI-so-we'll-never-understand' excuse, when facing the unexplainable.[/size] I'm not trying to be awkward here, I really am stuck. I'll shut up now!
@ Curls, agree with you. FBI involvement card is justification for everything / anything as well as a "shut down" for any non-explainables.
I do agree that MJ has friends in high places. The PR photos speak for themselves. Personally I am very iffy on FBI and Obama involvement. (If I am wrong, then so be it)
MJ is the master the driver if you will. He is in control and no doubt we know MJ is ALWAYS the star of the show. It just raised questions for me such as, : If this is for entertainment purposes, Thriller II, greatest show on earth etc, would MJ want to source the assistance of FBI / Obama? Historically, MJ is a one man show. If this was for entertainment purposes, wouldn't Obama involvement for Obama himself be risky (PR wise)?
However IT does sound logical, and IT does sound like MJ to have lots of uncertainty surrounding him all different tangents going off at once to create mystery and secrecy and keep us watching. MJ has never in the past said, oh "I was faking it in the wheel chair" or "Let me explain this publicity stunt" or "Ok, I'll reveal how I manipulated you here" He has always left us guessing.
I think the purpose of the whole dummy / Live MJ / body / FBI / clues and guessing game is to create confusion, uncertainty and preserve mystery. We don't know all of what happenned 25/6 but we do KNOW it is what MJ does. (Confusion / Uncertainty) It's why ppl are still talking about Pepsi incident in 2012. It's why we still talk about the hyperbaric chamber, its why people say he was frail and deathly around TII and yet others say in immaculate health and form.
Deliberate confusion. That is all.
By your words I can decipher that we will never know how this hoax was pulled off, let me tell you that maybe TS told us that FBI 's investigation made him to keep silent in some of the hoax aspects because he simply didn't want to explain us how it was pulled off as well as the rest of the world won't know it either, it's a clever way to say: sorry I can't tell you more about it instead of: sorry I am not gonna tell you more about it because I wanna leave you guessing so it will remains as an undiscovered mystery the same as Pepsi burn.
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 03, 2012, 08:45:16 AM
I was just curious about what people think. I wouldn't change my opinion because of a poll.I don't even know what theory you guys support now. I think we should have a poll about it.
I vote for the corpse/ DWD patient theory.
Stay true to whatever it is you as an individual have interpreted the evidence as being. A poll won't make any difference to that. A majority doesn't mean it is true or correct. Use your own brain to choose whatever way you think.
At the end of the day whatever we conclude here either as a group or an individual does not change what went down that day anyway.
And I believed that theory from the beginning, right or wrong.
i think Gina is true, though majority never means it is correct, we could know where we stand. I think there must be some users who don't read all the posts we discuss, but only read TS's. that would not make them aware of the active discussions. We at least need to know whether the whole bunch is moving in one direction...
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 03, 2012, 08:57:11 AM
Hmm, sunset. It's possible. But if that were the case, I wonder why he didn't post it on the thread(s) devoted to the news reports of Joe's stroke? There were many people on those threads wondering if it were true and hoping these were false reports and wishing Mr. Jackson the best just in case. Yet he came to the TIAI thread where we are predominantly tossing around the DWD theory and waiting for TS, who supports the DWD theory, to post the completion of Level 7, to give us a sign that reports of Joe's stroke was BS? Most of us think TS/TS_comments?Front all work for the same team, Front must have known what TS_comments was about to post... so I don't know.
OMG OMG OMG now I actually GET the popcorn pic.... Its all making sense.... TS confirmed wrong theory deliberately! I think you are right Bec...
I was the one who suggested popcorn pic was confirmation Joe was ok, and what the hell would I know?!?! (But no didn't ask for a sign)
P.s Sorry for post bombing this thread peeps. Pls forgive. x
Sorry Bec and Aussi, so you are trying to say that Front's post with himself I mean MJ eating popcorns was due to TS' DWD theory was not true and that's why Michael is smiling about it? :icon_e_confused:
Post by: bec on December 03, 2012, 09:04:22 AM
Seems off place and the wrong emotion to convey considering what TS what about to post.
Post by: Jos on December 03, 2012, 09:10:02 AM
NOT that he was smiling about a (possible) DWD patient.
Post by: paula-c on December 03, 2012, 09:23:09 AM
Quote
There are videos on Youtube with members of Michael's family saying countless times that there was a conspiracy against him, that "they were trying to murder him".
If you don't believe Michael and his family, then WHO do you believe?
Jermaine Jackson talks about a conspiracy regarding Michael Jackson's death
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jGHWLI0491Y[/youtube]
Quote
Closed captioning of: La Toya: Dr. Murray is ‘fall guy’ in Michael’s death
we're back at 8:09 with surprising claims being made by michael jackson 's sister la toya . she dedicates a large portion of her new book " starting over " to her brother and his death, including michael 's fear that he would be targeted in an assassination plot. la toya , it's nice to see you again. good morning.
good morning. matt, how you this morning.
i'm doing well. thank you. you know now that this book is coming out a lot of people will be talking about what's in it.
sure.
you wrote, michael who confided in me years earlier that he feared assassination by those who wanted to steal his valuable publishing catalog and estate. you quote michael as saying, i'm even afraid to walk around in my own yard because i'm afraid they're going to kill me. i could never perform again because i know they're going to kill me. do you know who he's referring to?
yes, he told me exactly who he was referring to. he was terrified. he was terrified of the fact that he had this catalog and he knew they wanted it. that catalog.
catalog of music.
his publishing which he owned over -- i think it was 750,000 songs just alone. so he owned everybody's publishing --
who did he think wanted to kill him to gain control of that catalog?
women, everybody that surrounded that, that was involved in that. and he would speak about it. and he was very afraid. he said it was just a matter of time. he knew it was going to happen. when he first told me i was, michael , come on that can't be true. i didn't truly understand it in the beginning. but the more he explained it, the more i understood. not only did he tell me. he told my mother as well.
one of the things that struck me. he said he was afraid to even perform yet we know at the time of his death he was rehearsing for a major tour over seas.
that's right.
what was the problem? he apparently had lost that fear.
no, what it was, he was in a catch-22 where he knew that he had to perform and he had the perform ten dates because he was given so much. okay. i'll do this and only this. only the ten dates and that's it.
so all the attention being paid to dr. conrad murray for the death of michael , you say he is the fall guy for a much larger plot. you write, quote, i decided to investigate michael 's death and go public with what i found with the hope of getting justice for michael by identifying those who really killed him. and yet in the book, la toya , i couldn't find anywhere where you actually named someone or give proof of anyone actually killing michael .
but when you read the book and you read between the lines and you understand, you will know what exactly michael led you to that, to what was going to happen.
lead me to it.
when you read the book you understand it completely. once you read it, you will understand it. and i have to say that i was not there when he was actually murdered. however --
but you do believe that it was not dr. conrad murray responsible for his death that someone actually murdered your brother?
i believe that dr. murray was definitely the fall guy . i think that they need to invest gate this a bit more. go deeper into it.
this idea of yours, and this belief of yours, has put you at odds with other family members.
not at odds.
you write in the book how the family always came together, for example, at the trial of michael .
of course.
-- earlier in 2003 . but they're in the on page you in this.
in the beginning they were, oh, no, he's passed, let him lie to rest. you can't not let that be because his children thanks need to know what happened, they want to know what happened to their father. they were there. they understand.
have you gone to the police now with information that you have uncovered in your own investigation? are they now looking in a different area?
in the beginning i was with the detectives right there with them and i wanted the surveillance camera , i want to no everything and everyone who came in and out of that house. all of a sudden that's eradicate eradicat eradicated. they erase it but just the first three or four minutes there.
on the subject of the trial of the situation the brother found himself in on two separate occasions with accusations of molestation. you held a news conference, i think it was in tel aviv in 1993 , and you said pretty important things. quote, i can no longer be a silent collaborator of these crimes against small innocent children.
absolutely.
you now say that you were forced to say that by your former husband jack gordon . how could he force you to say something so damning about your brother?
matt, when you're in a relationship when you're being abused and very controlling, he controlled everything i did, everything that went on in my life. he was working with a group of people that were working with my brother at the time, which, in fact, i didn't know. i wasn't privy to that. i wasn't privy to watch television. i knew nothing that was going on. when i went on television and said my brother was wonderful, he would never do anything like that. he hated that. the next day, you get on. went to tel aviv . he said i was going on vacation. i thought there was an award show. we drove up, all those cameras and people there. i didn't know.
you had a complete change of heart in terms of your brother's situation with molestation.
never had a change of heart . i always knew he never did that. and that's one thing that michael and i discussed and talk about because i had to speak to him about that. he said, la toya , you don't have to mention that. i know you. i know your heart i know he was making you do this. michael knew more than i thought. he would call me and tell me to get away from him. gordon is going to murder you. what i would want to say he would tell me if i didn't do what we he wanted me to do or say he was going to kill michael .
you have also made comments about your father joe molesting you and other forms of child abuse . now you say no other man alive or dead did anything like joseph did for his family and i thank him for that.
i do.
is this a contradiction?
no, it is not. my father did a wonderful job of raising all of us. i have to tell you that when you're young, you see things differently than when you get older. when you get older and you have children and your nieces and nephews, you understand why your father disciplined you the way he did. parents beat their children back then. they don't do that today. if you do it today, you're going to jail.
but you stand by the comments you made about molestation and child abuse ?
my father is a very wonderful man, matt. i have to tell you something. my father is getting older. i love him with all my heart. michael loved my father at the end of the day . people are showing footage of michael speaking at my father the way he thought many years ago. at the end of michael 's life he called my father several times, wanted him there. he even told his children, call grandpa, he will help me get out of this situation.
you're standing by your original statements about your dad?
my father is a wonderful person and always will be. he has a great heart and, yes, i do love him and care for him a great deal.
la toya jackson , appreciate it.
.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 03, 2012, 09:26:57 AM
My comment that you quoted was more that I now think it wasn't re:joe and more about the content that TS was abt to post. Not the actual person who dwd. The fact it was going to be entertaining to watch the crap fest following.
What would I know. Probably wrong :)
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 03, 2012, 09:30:50 AM
Quote
By your words I can decipher that we will never know how this hoax was pulled off, let me tell you that maybe TS told us that FBI 's investigation made him to keep silent in some of the hoax aspects because he simply didn't want to explain us how it was pulled off as well as the rest of the world won't know it either, it's a clever way to say: sorry I can't tell you more about it instead of: sorry I am not gonna tell you more about it because I wanna leave you guessing so it will remains as an undiscovered mystery the same as Pepsi burn.
Agree with you. However on the same token I need to (TS) educate myself more abt FBI involvement. (Which I plan to re-look at)
But it is a great way to shut things down
On another note I am just grateful to be here watching / participating in this live. How lucky are we gonna feel post bam. Best opportunity ever. One in a million even if my beliefs and theories that I choose are wrong. It's just so special to be here engaging in this interaction. It's a special piece of MJ history I tell ya!
:michael-jackson:
Post by: bec on December 03, 2012, 09:48:34 AM
I'm stuck on #1. 333 pages in 7 files released by FBI on 12/21/09. And that's where the list runs dry for me. Anyone want to help?
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 03, 2012, 09:58:52 AM
I think the "popcorn"-.gif was a reaction of Front, because we wrote 3 or 4 pages full of comments, that we were so excited for TS' post.
NOT that he was smiling about a (possible) DWD patient.
Jos we are trying to explain that MJ was not smiling because a DWD patient was used but the possibility of that a DWD patient was never used but TS made us think that DWD patient could have being used, do you get it?. I know I am using a game of words, sorry for that :icon_rolleyes:
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 03, 2012, 10:08:40 AM
Was the DWD patient's name "Michael Joseph Jackson"?? or did he change it to that for the hoax?? :suspect:
He changed it for the hoax and because this patient was a terminally ill person and he would probably be very skinny that's why Michael lost weight to perform in TII, so they changed their roles, the patient took Michael's artistic name and Michael took the DWD patient's weight. :confused: :icon_question: :icon_e_confused: :icon_rolleyes: MAYBE?!?!?!?!?!?! If DWD theory is true.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 03, 2012, 10:11:24 AM
These repeated insinuations that 'people suddenly started believing/supporting the corpse theory' or that 'TS just started supporting the corpse theory' or 'dropped the DWD bomb'...are not only flat-out false (anyone who's been here awhile knows this) but they are also bordering on offensive because the underlining insinuation is that ONLY those NOT supporting the corpse theory have thought for themselves. The members of this forum---both past and present---deserve much more respect than they are being shown. Not to mention the fact that REGARDLESS of what happened on June 25th, making light of ANY DWD patient's death or the circumstances surrounding their death and/or choices....is offensive and lacks tact and class.
End of rant...
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 03, 2012, 10:26:33 AM
I want to ask again, is there anyone who supports the FBI involvement theory who can list 12 reasons/evidences for the theory?
I'm stuck on #1. 333 pages in 7 files released by FBI on 12/21/09. And that's where the list runs dry for me. Anyone want to help?
Bec, I don't really think that FBI is going to plant clues to let us know that it is helping Michael...that's kind of confidential. TS said that forums were to help Michael against any entrapment, and that's where our role starts and kind of ends ( ::) ). But I feel FBI is not gonna reveal it's involvement until Bam..
And if you really wanna talk about clues, then that 333 pages document is the only clue we are having right now...
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 03, 2012, 10:40:47 AM
I def don't believe that anyone who believes DWD / body doesn't think them themselves. Not in the slightest. That would def be offensive. So luckily it's not what is being implied.
And I'm not sure what's being taken as offensive, I'm confused about that. Maybe I missed it but I couldn't see anyone making light of DWD patient or their circumstances around their death.
With love n respect. And I do respect others right to DWD / body theory. It's just not working for me. If I'm wrong that's cool :icon_e_smile:
Peace x
EDIT: I DID however say ppl are taking on body theory after TS' post. That I shouldn't have said as there have always been body theory believers. I apologise for that. It was a poor choice of words. I was trying to highlight a possible intention of TS might be a split in groups of theories to create confusion maintain mystery. Sorry :icon_e_smile:
Post by: ellyd on December 03, 2012, 11:07:39 AM
I want to ask again, is there anyone who supports the FBI involvement theory who can list 12 reasons/evidences for the theory?
I'm stuck on #1. 333 pages in 7 files released by FBI on 12/21/09. And that's where the list runs dry for me. Anyone want to help?
[back in time mode on]
Don't know if this helps: the leaves in the ambulance photo were shopped in. We discussed the leaves were pointing to the FBI logo and involvement. If I recall correctly, these leaves showed up on the outside of an ambulance drawer.
[back in time mode off]
If the leaves were shopped in (= artificially added) and don't have any other meaning than just adding reflections, making a photo more lively and driving us crazy at the time searching an impact where there was none, then the FBI notion may be out just to test our drawers.
Post by: Love4Michael on December 03, 2012, 11:11:25 AM
Post by: bec on December 03, 2012, 11:17:55 AM
I guess my motive for wanting a list of reasons supporting FBI involvement is this: most of the reasons/evidences for the DWD theory rest upon a platform of FBI involvement, which means the validity of the DWD theory relies upon the validity of the the FBI theory and that makes me uncomfortable unless the first theory can be supported.
The reasons supporting the LiveMJ theory were also laid out over the pages of this thread, and there was an entire level devoted to who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance, yet TS_comments still asked me to compile the reasons into an organized list, which I thought was fun and interesting to do. I was just wondering if anyone would do the same for the FBI theory, since it seems to be the foundation for the DWD theory.
Post by: bec on December 03, 2012, 11:42:55 AM
I want to ask again, is there anyone who supports the FBI involvement theory who can list 12 reasons/evidences for the theory?
I'm stuck on #1. 333 pages in 7 files released by FBI on 12/21/09. And that's where the list runs dry for me. Anyone want to help?
[back in time mode on]
Don't know if this helps: the leaves in the ambulance photo were shopped in. We discussed the leaves were pointing to the FBI logo and involvement. If I recall correctly, these leaves showed up on the outside of an ambulance drawer.
[back in time mode off]
If the leaves were shopped in (= artificially added) and don't have any other meaning than just adding reflections, making a photo more lively and driving us crazy at the time searching an impact where there was none, then the FBI notion may be out just to test our drawers.
I like your back in time mode :icon_geek:
My take on the "leaf" pattern: since the pattern went over the paramedics arm, it's not part of the background pattern. Additionally, the pattern appeared in different levels of transparency in different frames. Where the pattern appeared over a shadow, it was darker. Where the pattern appeared over a light background, it was imperceptible. Since no existing on sight source for the pattern was detected, it could not be a reflection. The leaf pattern remained stationary in the frame even as the subjects changed very slight perspective (paramedic's knee/MJ's face). All of these points are proof that the pattern was layered over the background subject post-capture and not reflected. The pattern is able to effectively prove that the pic includes some sort of layering effect. Layering proves that the pic was created (altered) rather then simply captured on film during the shot.
Many US institutions contain various leaf patterns in their seals/logos. California state seal is an example. The FBI as well. US currency. But to date, the ambulance pic "leaf" pattern has not been identified as a match to any logo, seal, drawing, or existing image to date, other then also being a "leaf" type pattern. So far the pattern appears to be unique and not borrowed. It has the interesting attribute of also appearing to be a laughing or grinning man's face.
The conclusion that I accept as reasonable: the pattern was layered into the pic to provide proof that the pic was created, and not captured in the heat of the moment like the official story explains.
Post by: ellyd on December 03, 2012, 12:29:59 PM
The discussion about the leaves started here:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=550#p315088 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=550#p315088)
TS cropped the "rectangle handle part" of the drawer.
If "handle" means "execute", the leaves may represent the doing and the colouring was "grey in grey" thus hidden in twilight.
The a.m. is interpretation only, so don't go for that.
Any evidence for FBI involvement? These guys in court? Who are they?
They look familiar through the blurry effect: ressembling Mr. Schwarzenegger, Mr. Phillips and Mr. Sneddon.
(http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/files/2011/11/PX00203_91.jpg)
Post by: bec on December 03, 2012, 01:23:28 PM
I don't know, they could be anyone. The FBI generally don't go around brandishing insignia's signifying who they are so the fact that these men are adorned with some sort of uniform pin/broach is really more proof that they are not FBI agents, then proof that they are.
Here's some FBI agents at various press conferences:
(http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2012/11/20/21/47/917-h3tjZ.St.55.jpeg)
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/superphoto/11440629.jpg)
Here's an FBI agent arriving at court:
(http://www.trbimg.com/img-509c04e2/turbine/la-fbi-20121108/600)
Quote
FBI Special Agent in Charge in Phoenix, James Turgal, front, arrives at U.S. District Court
Here's an FBI agent escorting a suspect:
(http://a.abcnews.go.com/images/US/ap_clayton_osbon_jp_120402_wg.jpg)
Quote
JetBlue pilot Clayton Frederick Osbon, right, is escorted to a waiting vehicle by FBI agents
Here are a couple of agents wearing American flag pins, a common type of pin worn by officials and heads of state in the US:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--OZCFW5qRFM/UGdYqJo22pI/AAAAAAAAAro/Ly9MnBjZleE/s1600/Mack+in+custody.jpg)
Quote
Mayor Mack under arrest being transferred to federal court by FBI Agents.
FBI agent on the left exiting federal court:
(http://media.nola.com/tpphotos/photo/2011/11/10307206-large.jpg)
Quote
U.S. Attorney Jim Letten exits Federal Court to announce that former Plaquemines Parish sheriff JIff Hingle pleaded guilty to a count of conspiracy to commit mail fraud and bribery, Wednesday, November 30, 2011. With Letten are, David W. Welker, FBI, Special Agent in Charge, left and Matt Chester, Assistant U.S. Attorney, right.
Post by: MsTrinity333 on December 03, 2012, 01:37:21 PM
I just simply can't believe you guys are actually depressed and confused :icon_eek: :suspect: :animal0017: WTF!? :animal0017:you said/wrote it right Sim, there is no reason to be sad, confused or in depression. It is not over yet! we are not in the end of hoax tunnel, some time still lefts..please be patient and we will see the result of Michael`s master plan.
I guess I am the only one happy here, as I said in my long reply here to TS posts, to me there are many things that I understand better now, yet there are still some unclear things! mostly due to the FBI involvement and to the fact that as TS himself said it: not even MJ knows everything that happened "that day"!
So what more do you want? It's very clear! We won't have ALL the answers regarding what exactly happened on June 25th!
So what!??
That doesn't change the fact that Michael is alive and he's gonna BAM sooner or later by January 2013!
Come on guys cheer up!!
We've even had Front & TS acknowledging themselves on this same thread!! With TS blatantly telling us that Front = MJ!!
Isn't that reason enough to PARTY!!?? :penguin: :multiplespotting: :beerchug:
I'M WITH YOU GUYS! :michael-jackson: :multiplespotting:
IT'S NICE TO KNOW THERE'S VALIDATION FOR THOSE OF US WHO STUCK TO OUR GUNS CONCERNING THE BODY/CORPSE THEORY... :TongueOutSmiley:
NOT TO MENTION FBI INVOLVEMENT OF A REAL STING GOING DOWN, NOT JUST MICHAEL'S ARTISTIC ONE. :elvis-1405:
THANK YOU SIM FOR KEEPING ME UPDATED ON FB. :beerchug:
TO TS :th_bravo: :th_bravo: :th_bravo: THANK YOU. :bowdown:
For all the rest of you guys... :bearhug: :bearhug: :bearhug:
Sorry I haven't been around much in the last year. Most of my energy has been focused in the Michael's Army of Love sub-forum. LIFE just gets in the way of your best laid plans.
Post by: ellyd on December 03, 2012, 02:04:30 PM
And if showing them blurred (and in the background) was only meant to indicate the "grand stage" by props.
This is painting a scene from background to detail and from small to big.
Compare the photos you cited with the one from courtroom. Complete different attitude.
Those you showed us derive from journalism, giving facts.
Murray's handcuffing act is prose.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 03, 2012, 02:18:30 PM
Perfect ladies, just perfect!! :th_bravo:A DWD patient ended their own life and was not the victim of manslaughter,Yes, Adi...that makes perfect sense. TS had asked us to think of what was alleged and what wasn't. It makes sense that anything following the charge of manslaughter, which wasn't alleged, would have to be 'alleged' since there was no victim of manslaughter and no manslaughter took place on June 25th.
therefore they are an "alleged victim"of manslaughter.
Since there was no manslaughter there also was no date for manslaughter to occur on...
...therefore it is an "alleged" date.
It also makes perfect sense that if the trial was only for a movie/entertainment purposes, there would've been absolutely no need to include the use of 'alleged' in the verdict.
I think the "popcorn"-.gif was a reaction of Front, because we wrote 3 or 4 pages full of comments, that we were so excited for TS' post.+ 1 :icon_e_wink:
NOT that he was smiling about a (possible) DWD patient.
And I think one more reason for Front to post that gif, was that he was 'thrilled' and impatient to know how we'll react to TS' posts... As Teddy Riley once said in an Oprah interview (using the lovely Present Tense, as usual :icon_e_biggrin: :icon_albino: ): "Michael lives for controversy" . And I bet he's having a great time reading all our interesting strong OPPOSING opinions here! It's a continuous unexpected mood/debate around here... Nobody can complain of boredom right now, can they? :icon_geek: :icon_lol:
There was an entire level dedicated to FBI involvement and also one devoted to hoax vs. sting court. Anyone is free to take a look back [. . . . ] There's been so many contributions by so many members here that keep getting ignored/overlooked (at best)....intentionally belittled with veiled insults (at worst)...that have addressed these very points.OMGGG!! Please rant more often!!!
[ . . . ]
TS provided 12 points in support of the DWD theory...addressing many of the objections... but the same objections keep being brought up. So what's the point?
Again, for anyone genuinely interested in gaining a better understanding or different perspective...the forum is FULL of resources.
These repeated insinuations that 'people suddenly started believing/supporting the corpse theory' or that 'TS just started supporting the corpse theory' or 'dropped the DWD bomb'...are not only flat-out false (anyone who's been here awhile knows this) but they are also bordering on offensive because the underlining insinuation is that ONLY those NOT supporting the corpse theory have thought for themselves. The members of this forum---both past and present---deserve much more respect than they are being shown. Not to mention the fact that REGARDLESS of what happened on June 25th, making light of ANY DWD patient's death or the circumstances surrounding their death and/or choices....is offensive and lacks tact and class.
End of rant...
With L.O.V.E. always.
Love you sis' ! :bearhug:
Post by: mindseye on December 03, 2012, 02:58:11 PM
From Pepsi to death is 9282 days and add another 180 days that is 1-8=7 December 22, 2009 it's 9462 days =21 and 1351 weeks =10
From and including: Thursday, June 25, 2009
To and including: Tuesday, December 22, 2009
It is 181 days = 10
25 weeks = 7
From and including: Tuesday, December 22, 2009
To and including: Friday, December 21, 2012
It is 1096 days =7
156 weeks 12
I've always wondered if CM number 2926725 = 33 and MJ 073164 is 73 =10 1 64=10 = 111 or 3 means anything. :icon_e_confused:
29 mj birthday
26 7 ? if there's 333 pages released out of 600 that's the difference of 267
25 death
:icon_eek:
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 03, 2012, 03:04:43 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on December 03, 2012, 03:08:46 PM
There was an entire level dedicated to FBI involvement and also one devoted to hoax vs. sting court. Anyone is free to take a look back at the MANY posts by MANY members who either supported the theories or rejected them...it's all there for anyone interested. [....]In addition to all those dozens of forum pages ^^ ... maybe a few VISUAL arguments will help... regarding the DEATH THREATS & implicitly the FBI involvement (for those who still doubt Michael had received death threats).
Michael - death threats (FBI)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/iaminnocen.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/iaminnocen.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjdeatgug.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjdeatdkd.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjdeatdld.jpg)
ELVIS- death threats (FBI)
---> Elvis Presley death hoax - Operation Fountain Pen - FBI case that led to Witness Protection Program (https://www.facebook.com/notes/mj-elvis-are-alive-mj-lisa-the-secret/elvis-presley-death-hoax-operation-fountain-pen-fbi-case-that-led-to-witness-pro/263839363673088)
---> Elvis & Michael death hoax ~ Operation PHOENIX (https://www.facebook.com/notes/mj-elvis-are-alive-mj-lisa-the-secret/elvis-michael-death-hoax-operation-phoenix/262431690480522)
---> The Presley Commission Report ~ Timeline: August 16, 1977 (https://www.facebook.com/notes/mj-elvis-are-alive-mj-lisa-the-secret/the-presley-commission-report-timeline-august-16-1977/259105927479765)
LINK 1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=328086267248397&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&permPage=1)
LINK 2 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=328086270581730&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&permPage=1)
LINK 3 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=406338326089857&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&permPage=1)
---> Elvis Presley death hoax - Operation Fountain Pen - FBI case that led to Witness Protection Program (https://www.facebook.com/notes/mj-elvis-are-alive-mj-lisa-the-secret/elvis-presley-death-hoax-operation-fountain-pen-fbi-case-that-led-to-witness-pro/263839363673088)
---> Elvis & Michael death hoax ~ Operation PHOENIX (https://www.facebook.com/notes/mj-elvis-are-alive-mj-lisa-the-secret/elvis-michael-death-hoax-operation-phoenix/262431690480522)
---> The Presley Commission Report ~ Timeline: August 16, 1977 (https://www.facebook.com/notes/mj-elvis-are-alive-mj-lisa-the-secret/the-presley-commission-report-timeline-august-16-1977/259105927479765)
LINK 1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=328086267248397&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&permPage=1)
LINK 2 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=328086270581730&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&permPage=1)
LINK 3 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=406338326089857&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&permPage=1)
VARIOUS:
LINK 1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=258429794214045&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&theater)
LINK 2 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=208080619248963&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&theater)
LINK 3 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=206391112751247&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&theater)
LINK 4 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=208080632582295&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&theater)
LINK 5 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=263849167005441&set=a.197718843618474.48934.197418280315197&type=3&theater)
My reply to @Curls, few days ago
Why does FBI involvement automatically mean MJ was/is in danger and they were there for his protection, as some are saying here?1. There are recordings posted on Youtube with Michael saying he was afraid for his life, in various occasions.
2. There are videos on Youtube with members of Michael's family saying countless times that there was a conspiracy against him, that "they were trying to murder him".
If you don't believe Michael and his family, then WHO do you believe?
3. TS stressed on the Illuminati theory for a reason! That means those people were infiltrated in his entourage from the music industry, trying to get his catalog/fortune/Neverland by all means!!
4. Michael was framed for those 2 trials!! If "they" were capable of doing that, do you guys seriously doubt that 'they" would hesitate to murder him ??
5. Do you think the FBI just sat on those false allegations and did NOTHING? Do you think they had so many files on Michael just for nothing?? It was said in those files his life was in danger!! It is said on those files that they had found nothing to incriminate Michael!!
How on Earth you can doubt that his life was in danger??
Do you think the FBI would get involved in Michael's hoax, just to have some fun!?? of course there was a SERIOUS MOTIVE!! Life threatening IS a serious motive!! + Financial fraud!! which most of the music industry sharks did to Michael!
6. And then...don't forget about ELVIS !!! Michael wasn't the only one to have received help from the FBI to fake his death to save his life!! Elvis and his family have received numerous death threats too prior to 1977!!
Post by: Jos on December 03, 2012, 03:10:29 PM
I think the popcorn gif was just acknowledgment (by means if humor) of the huge level of suspense or anxiousness that was obviously present on the forum while everyone waited for the TS post. I thought it was funny as hell and I'm still not sure why some feel it necessary to try and over analyze the post to make it seem macabre in any way. You all should know by now that Michael or anyone that's working with him in this would never make light of another persons passing...regardless of the timing.
Indeed, that was what I was trying to say
Post by: bec on December 03, 2012, 03:16:40 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on December 03, 2012, 03:21:42 PM
There are MANY great posts in the FBI thread and the hoax vs. sting court thread, dealing with both past AND present (hoax) connections between Mike and the FBI. I'm guessing they've either been overlooked, ignored, or forgotten...and it's unfortunate because a lot of time and effort (by many) went into piecing together many 'dots'/hints/clues we were given along the way. Seeing things visually laid out is always a huge plus!
Love you too, sis :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 03, 2012, 04:16:11 PM
Post by: Andrea on December 03, 2012, 04:29:34 PM
FBI aside for a moment, I think there's so much back and forth here because there was a definite lack of a "smoking gun" in TS's support of a DWD patient being "used" that day. I'm not saying there is one for any other theory but it's not case closed yet.
Post by: MJonmind on December 03, 2012, 05:22:07 PM
TS « on: November 18, 2012, 09:23:50 PM »
Quote
Quote from: bec on November 06, 2012, 06:41:54 PMPerhaps there is a general aligning of two ultimate powers going head to head here. There are those forces including corporations and billionaires behind MJ, and those forces of equal or greater power with financial backing behind those wanting to enslave all humans and reduce the population to 500 million as per Georgia Guidestones. TS simply can't out with everything, yet we are still being let into the 'war-room', so to speak.Quote... Even the Jackson family quit talking about conspiracy and the "real" murderer over a year ago.
Yes, and TS was also silent for nearly a year. But as I said, it's time for things to start rumbling again ...
And in response to your question about this seeming inconsistency--only TS threads discussing serious things (sting, etc)--the man himself agreed that there is indeed "seriousness".
I think MJonmind put it pretty well:QuoteYou know where MJ is talking about Sony, his finances, business dealings, he would say, “It’s a very delicate situation.” And when he sings, TDRCAU, he is talking about TPTB, the NWO gang, bankers, all those in ruling positions who rob, cheat, lie, step on people to get what they want. I don’t think TS or MJ would openly say ‘they’ are a sting target—perhaps too dangerous. I think the evil people behind MJ’s false allegations and part of the ultimate target of the big STING, could be shown like a pyramid. At the bottom were Sneddon, Dimond, Grace, Even Chandler, the Arvizos. Next level could be Sony, Catholic Church, Racist powerful people. Next level possibly bankers, Bilderbergers, Illuminati. Next level IDK, alien/demonic powers. I say this because of 2 of Front’s early posts: (TS’ Sign #1 on the coming EOW and Michael Archangel=Jesus verifies this){http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg428291.html#msg428291}
Post by: Adi on December 03, 2012, 05:33:48 PM
There was an entire level dedicated to FBI involvement and also one devoted to hoax vs. sting court. Anyone is free to take a look back at the MANY posts by MANY members who either supported the theories or rejected them...it's all there for anyone interested. There's been so many contributions by so many members here that keep getting ignored/overlooked (at best)....intentionally belittled with veiled insults (at worst)...that have addressed these very points. And not just since TS' 'reappearance' a few weeks ago....in fact, the bulk of all these discussions took place years ago and culminated within the levels. TS provided 12 points in support of the DWD theory...addressing many of the objections...but the same objections keep being brought up. So what's the point? Again, for anyone genuinely interested in gaining a better understanding or different perspective...the forum is FULL of resources.
These repeated insinuations that 'people suddenly started believing/supporting the corpse theory' or that 'TS just started supporting the corpse theory' or 'dropped the DWD bomb'...are not only flat-out false (anyone who's been here awhile knows this) but they are also bordering on offensive because the underlining insinuation is that ONLY those NOT supporting the corpse theory have thought for themselves. The members of this forum---both past and present---deserve much more respect than they are being shown. Not to mention the fact that REGARDLESS of what happened on June 25th, making light of ANY DWD patient's death or the circumstances surrounding their death and/or choices....is offensive and lacks tact and class.
End of rant...
With L.O.V.E. always.
Yep - TS has been hinting at the corpse theory for a long time .....last year he asked this of us (below) but he has been suggesting not to discount the corpse theory much further back than this...
Can anyone come up with the longest time that UCLA has worked a flat-lined patient, before calling the death?
Also might check other hospitals, for comparison.
This was one of the articles found in response to this question: http://www.cpr-etc.com/michael-jackson-cpr.html
TS raised the idea of a corpse being used back in March 2010 in TIAI Update #4d: 777 + 999 = Greatest Proof Hoax, Not Murder
Quote
4-37. Hints on the “How’s” of the Hoaxhttp://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,7194.msg116959.html#msg116959
In this update, I have gone into great detail about the timing of the hoax (as well as a few other aspects). Previously, I have gone into great detail about the reasons for the hoax {http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/search.php?author_id=1440&sr=posts}. That leaves only one frontier remaining: how did MJ succeed in pulling off this massive hoax?
I’m not going to go into great detail on that now, it would be very long—and this update is already the longest update by far. But I will give some hints, to help you go in the right direction if you want to investigate it further.
For starters, maybe it is time to create a sub-forum for Coherent Theories. By this, I mean theories that start putting all the pieces together, fitting into one bigger picture. But we can’t have MJ hopping on a plane at LAX, escaping out of a tunnel in the basement of UCLA, and riding alive in the helicopter to the coroner’s office, as well as in the other helicopter—all at the same time. This would not qualify as a coherent theory.
I think we already have a huge clue from Jermaine, telling us that MJ went to the “airport”—NOT the hospital. And in fact, it would’ve been very risky and unnecessary for him to ride alive in the ambulance to UCLA, and then go into UCLA where he could be easily recognized (and hard to play dead), and then try to escape somehow. What would be the point?
Based on the planned timing of the hoax, we should now be able to see very plainly that the living MJ body double theory doesn’t work. There is no chance that a living double just happened to die on the right year, the right day, and the right hour.
This leaves us with three possibilities. There was no body at all, which would require quite a few people to be “in on it”. There was a dummy, not a real human; this reduces the number of people “in on it”, and also makes it easy to duplicate the looks of MJ (but paramedics would need to be “in on it”, because they would not be fooled by a dummy). Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died. In fact, at different times and places, there could’ve been more than one corpse and/or dummy used as needed.
Considering the corpse possibility: do you remember anything about the room being heated extra warm—in the summer of all times {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/26/jackson-time-of-death-a-mystery/}? Maybe the room was heated to make the corpse feel warm, like it had just died. And do you remember the paramedics saying that MJ had been dead for more than an hour before they arrived—and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man? {http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedics-jackson-dead-when-we-arrived/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/25/michael-jackson-dies-death-dead-cardiac-arrest/; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/26/michael-jackson-the-911-call/}
In fact in this above post from 2010 he suggests it could have been a corpse and a dummy at different stages - which is what he also wrote in response to the lists http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg430579.html#msg430579
Quote#1. MJ was reported to be “Alive at UCLA”.
#1. He was also reported as dying at UCLA. If the reports are true, then MJ is dead and there is no hoax. If the reports are partly true, then which is true and which is false? Perhaps the “alive” part is true, and the “at UCLA” part is false (along with the dying part). At best, this “alive” (at UCLA) report could be considered a clue—but a clue of what: the live MJ theory, or merely a clue that he is still alive? Also, if we went looking for clues: we could find corpse clues (in addition to dummy clues), such as the TMZ article about finding a corpse one morning at the Murray court. For the record, I’m not saying that a dummy was never used during the hoax; for example, La Toya perfectly described a dummy in the casket, that continued for weeks just as good as new! :suspect: :animal0017: :suspect: :icon_lol: So we have to be careful not to apply clues to the wrong time or event.
Post by: MJonmind on December 03, 2012, 05:39:44 PM
Quote
He changed it for the hoax and because this patient was a terminally ill person and he would probably be very skinny that's why Michael lost weight to perform in TII, so they changed their roles, the patient took Michael's artistic name and Michael took the DWD patient's weight. MAYBE?!?!?!?!?!?! If DWD theory is true.Yeppers! You worded it nicely!
Ellyd
Quote
If the leaves were shopped in (= artificially added) and don't have any other meaning than just adding reflections, making a photo more lively and driving us crazy at the time searching an impact where there was none, then the FBI notion may be out just to test our drawers.:icon_lol:
Bec, so you’re saying the leaf pattern is a signature mark, watermark? Seems like it to me too. Joint signature of FBI and MJ. This hoax/sting is historical and artistic.
One option I long thought for CM is a FBI agent.
Sim
Quote
Quote from: SimPattyK on December 01, 2012, 05:52:03 AM
Quote from: curls on December 01, 2012, 05:34:46 AM
Why does FBI involvement automatically mean MJ was/is in danger and they were there for his protection, as some are saying here?
1. There are recordings posted on Youtube with Michael saying he was afraid for his life, in various occasions.
2. There are videos on Youtube with members of Michael's family saying countless times that there was a conspiracy against him, that "they were trying to murder him".
If you don't believe Michael and his family, then WHO do you believe?
3. TS stressed on the Illuminati theory for a reason! That means those people were infiltrated in his entourage from the music industry, trying to get his catalog/fortune/Neverland by all means!!
4. Michael was framed for those 2 trials!! If "they" were capable of doing that, do you guys seriously doubt that 'they" would hesitate to murder him ??
5. Do you think the FBI just sat on those false allegations and did NOTHING? Do you think they had so many files on Michael just for nothing?? It was said in those files his life was in danger!! It is said on those files that they had found nothing to incriminate Michael!!
How on Earth you can doubt that his life was in danger??
Do you think the FBI would get involved in Michael's hoax, just to have some fun!?? of course there was a SERIOUS MOTIVE!! Life threatening IS a serious motive!! + Financial fraud!! which most of the music industry sharks did to Michael!
6. And then...don't forget about ELVIS !!! Michael wasn't the only one to have received help from the FBI to fake his death to save his life!! Elvis and his family have received numerous death threats too prior to 1977!!
This really sums things up nicely!
BTC, there are thousands of good investigative posts made by smart members (many past), but there’s also the very necessary contribution members still here can make by remembering and condensing, and giving overall statements coming from the past investigations. It’s a daunting task, and unfortunately I have such a rotten memory section of my brain. I can just barely keep up with main threads every day, do a little other investigating – never mind reread some older threads. Though I've been here since the very beginning, I am so thankful for the ones here who can so well remember obscure details from several years ago. :beerchug: I wish I could emplant a 'total recall' computer chip in my brain. :Crash: But it's teamwork, we each do what we can according to our gifts! To all:
:bearhug:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 03, 2012, 05:56:46 PM
LATOYA & FBI :icon_e_wink:
POST BY TS ----> http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg375503.html#msg375503
In this post, I’m going to be giving further evidence about one of the reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital (risk of being murdered).
[. . . . ]
The question here is whether MJ has been facing a real murder danger (at any time, not just 6-25-09), and therefore was his artwork was designed to portray this real danger through entertainment? Or was the danger just an artistic creation, designed merely for the sake of entertainment? Once we understand the “how’s” of the hoax, the answer to this question should be very clear. However, even before completing 7b, I want to show many reasons why this danger is very real; then the rest of 7b should be relatively easy to understand.
First and foremost are MJ’s beliefs about the Bible, the NWO, and the end of the world.
[. . . .]
For those who have been following the tweets from Paris, you know that she has tweeted several things about “secret societies”, the Illuminati, the eye-pyramid (with the Army of Love cutting the strings), the warning about the New World Order, etc.
Are all these things just for art and entertainment, with no real threat?
[ . . . .]
Can anyone read La Toya’s book (Starting Over), and come to the conclusion that Jack Gordon was not a real threat in her life—that she fabricated the stories, pictures of bruises, etc, just for entertainment? And if this was real, and not made up by La Toya, then it should be clear that the threats against MJ were just as real; she talks about the threats against both of them (herself and MJ) in the same context, and sometimes the same people behind the threats. In fact, it went beyond mere threats; when it came to the molestation charges, it was these same people who “got him [MJ]” (according to Jack Gordon).
“Latoya and Frank Cascio also wrote about 9/11 in their books!!! WHY do they brings this horrible attacks in their books, related to Mj, this is what I don't understand and it really disturbs me” {applehead250609, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959)}.
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
Speaking of entertainment: The Illusionist (which La Toya pleaded with us to watch, and “read between the lines”) is a good example of entertainment WHICH PORTRAYS A REAL DANGER! There was a real enemy, with a real intent to kill the person who “died”; and the plan of the illusionist included not only saving the life of the potential victim, but also exposing the criminal.
Probably everyone knows this by now, but let me remind you anyway: “Michael Jackson's FBI Files Reveal Death Threats” {http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml)}. Surely the FBI did not make this up, just to go along with MJ’s artistic creation of some imaginary enemy. The FBI was also involved with investigating La Toya’s situation (Jack Gordon, etc); during level 5, I already quoted important excerpts from her book {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0)}.
So I think we have every valid reason to believe that the FBI is helping MJ in the death hoax, for more than just movie and entertainment purposes; they are helping to create the illusion, in order to expose the criminal.
“1. He just knew! He was famous and rich from the age of 5! The fortune hunters were always after him. He is intuitive! He is God-gifted. He just knows things! 2. He got hints from Elvis who also faked his death! He knew what happened to Elvis all his life because of his celebrity! and that Elvis had also received death threats! 3. He saw what happened to John Lenon and other celebs [MLK, JFK, Lady Di, etc]! he didn't want to wait for that happening to him too!” {SimPattyK, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869)}.
Let me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30).
Nevertheless, even though I have received great opposition from many: I have never received any opposition from the hoax insiders (family, TMZ, etc); quite the opposite, both the family and TMZ have supported TS/TIAI on several occasions {including the recent Too Short article, http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0)}. And this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
I’ve said the following before, but it is worth repeating. This is the only hoax forum that I have ever posted on, and it is also the only hoax forum or website that TMZ ever linked to in their blogroll; this blogroll is no longer on their home page, but it is still on their website and still has a link to our forum on it {http://www.tmz.com/blogroll (http://www.tmz.com/blogroll)}. For a long time, many have thought that TMZ was just another unreliable tabloid media source—that they have merely been playing with hoax believers, and don’t really have any inside information about the hoax. Well, TS has always supported TMZ; and recently, La Toya also supported TMZ: “But there’s more to the story guys, and Harvey knows that; Harvey Levin knows that (don’t you Harvey).” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM)}.
I could cite many more examples, both from TMZ and the family; however, I have already done that many times in the past, so I only added a couple of newer examples here. But I will close with the following, which sums it up in short. The whole world, INCLUDING HOAX BELIEVERS, need to wake up to the reality of the seriousness of the danger—not for the sake of fear and mind-control, as some people have claimed; but rather for the sake of awareness and preparation: forewarned is forearmed!
[back in time mode on]
Don't know if this helps: the leaves in the ambulance photo were shopped in. We discussed the leaves were pointing to the FBI logo and involvement. If I recall correctly, these leaves showed up on the outside of an ambulance drawer. [ . . . ]
Regarding the LEAF-pattern that kept showing all through out the hoax,
I made some montages on this thread here: THE CLOTHES "SPEAK" clues TO US (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20312.50.html)
---> READ on PAGE 3 (replies #72, #73 ) and PAGE 4 (replies #77, #78, #89, #91
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/fbileafpat.jpg)
Police Officer Latoya
They're laughing at her, but the FACT is she really is a Police officer! :icon_e_wink:
Pay attention to what she says between minutes 04:29 and 04:53 - regarding the investigation on Michael's case! how she says she's working with them (the investigators!). Watch her face/eyes when she says 'I'm in contact with them, I'm working with them..." :icon_albino: :icon_e_biggrin:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG3aeZ1QamI[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTfygYFsJ3o[/youtube]
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/fbileajvj.jpg)
POST BY TS ---> http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18964.msg327641.html#msg327641
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Sting.jpg)
[...]
We are now at the most important level: who is the focus of The Sting? [....]
Keep in mind the possibility that more than one person or entity is the focus.
Most specifically, though, we need to investigate whether the entire court is in on the hoax, or could the court itself be the focus of the FBI investigation (or part of the investigation). Some have already proposed this possibility, while others have summarily dismissed it. As always, please do not dismiss any theory until it has been thoroughly debunked. And whatever theory you personally believe, try to debunk your own theory; many hoax investigators are still not doing this.
In favor of the court sting theory, let me point out a few things. Some say that the court did the right thing back in the 2005 acquittal, so why would it be investigated? The reality is that the defense and jury did the right thing, but what about the prosecution? We already know about Aphrodite’s testimony, and Tom Sneddon (TS :lol: ), etc.
We also know that for years the FBI investigated MJ, and the pedophile claim; but they found nothing against MJ. Could it be that in the process of this investigation, the FBI found evidence of corruption in the LA prosecution and the MJ trial? Could it be that as a result, the FBI in cooperation with MJ decided to make the LA court system the focus of a sting operation? Please remember that the “top priority” of the FBI is “public corruption” in government agencies; and their investigation specifically includes “verdicts handed down in courts”
{http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption)}.
We are also at the point, which I mentioned earlier, of running two different coherent theories in parallel. And as we try to put all the pieces together—including the research of previous levels, as well as the new information that we will get during the hearings—hopefully one of the two theories will fall into place, and the other one will fall apart.
Although there are endless minor variations within these two main coherent theories, for the purpose of this level we are only examining two basic theories: the court is in on the hoax, or the court is not in on the hoax (other than the defense, and maybe a few other key people). For the sake of discussion, we can refer to these two theories as “hoax court” and “sting court”.
In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance.
In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD).
In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.
Even though level three is still unresolved, yet we can and should start investigating level four (The Sting).
[ . . . .]
It has been suggested that this would constitute entrapment; but sting versus entrapment does not depend on using a dummy versus a corpse. It would be possible to use a dummy, and still qualify as entrapment, if the job was done so airtight that nobody could figure it out. On the other hand: it would be possible to use a corpse, and not qualify as entrapment, as long as there are plenty of clues and evidence that MJ is still alive. If the hoax forums can figure out that MJ is alive, when most of the members are not even professional investigators, then what excuse would the LA prosecution have for not figuring it out?
[ . . . .]
Post by: Adi on December 03, 2012, 06:09:11 PM
That bit in your montage about the "big Fish" reminded me of what Travis Payne says in This Is It at about 9 seconds into this video.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGDSG1dsDjA[/youtube]
Post by: BeTheChange on December 03, 2012, 06:25:25 PM
We've been building a puzzle together for 3 1/2 years...and it took a lot of teamwork to get us to a semi-coherent picture. NO MATTER WHAT we do or how much we go back and forth...the picture will NOT be complete until after the BAM. If people want to spend their time dismantling the picture we have built...then so be it (although it should've been requested in the proper/relevant thread(s), IMO, if we are trying to keep the forum streamlined). It would be nice though if people were more mindful of their comments.
@Adi & Sim...great reminders, thanks for sharing.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: MsTrinity333 on December 03, 2012, 06:42:17 PM
LATOYA & FBI :icon_e_wink:
POST BY TS ----> http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg375503.html#msg375503In this post, I’m going to be giving further evidence about one of the reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital (risk of being murdered).
[. . . . ]
The question here is whether MJ has been facing a real murder danger (at any time, not just 6-25-09), and therefore was his artwork was designed to portray this real danger through entertainment? Or was the danger just an artistic creation, designed merely for the sake of entertainment? Once we understand the “how’s” of the hoax, the answer to this question should be very clear. However, even before completing 7b, I want to show many reasons why this danger is very real; then the rest of 7b should be relatively easy to understand.
First and foremost are MJ’s beliefs about the Bible, the NWO, and the end of the world.
[. . . .]
For those who have been following the tweets from Paris, you know that she has tweeted several things about “secret societies”, the Illuminati, the eye-pyramid (with the Army of Love cutting the strings), the warning about the New World Order, etc.
Are all these things just for art and entertainment, with no real threat?
[ . . . .]
Can anyone read La Toya’s book (Starting Over), and come to the conclusion that Jack Gordon was not a real threat in her life—that she fabricated the stories, pictures of bruises, etc, just for entertainment? And if this was real, and not made up by La Toya, then it should be clear that the threats against MJ were just as real; she talks about the threats against both of them (herself and MJ) in the same context, and sometimes the same people behind the threats. In fact, it went beyond mere threats; when it came to the molestation charges, it was these same people who “got him [MJ]” (according to Jack Gordon).
“Latoya and Frank Cascio also wrote about 9/11 in their books!!! WHY do they brings this horrible attacks in their books, related to Mj, this is what I don't understand and it really disturbs me” {applehead250609, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959)}.
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
Speaking of entertainment: The Illusionist (which La Toya pleaded with us to watch, and “read between the lines”) is a good example of entertainment WHICH PORTRAYS A REAL DANGER! There was a real enemy, with a real intent to kill the person who “died”; and the plan of the illusionist included not only saving the life of the potential victim, but also exposing the criminal.
Probably everyone knows this by now, but let me remind you anyway: “Michael Jackson's FBI Files Reveal Death Threats” {http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml (http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1628762/michael-jacksons-fbi-files-reveal-death-threats.jhtml)}. Surely the FBI did not make this up, just to go along with MJ’s artistic creation of some imaginary enemy. The FBI was also involved with investigating La Toya’s situation (Jack Gordon, etc); during level 5, I already quoted important excerpts from her book {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19778.0)}.
So I think we have every valid reason to believe that the FBI is helping MJ in the death hoax, for more than just movie and entertainment purposes; they are helping to create the illusion, in order to expose the criminal.
“1. He just knew! He was famous and rich from the age of 5! The fortune hunters were always after him. He is intuitive! He is God-gifted. He just knows things! 2. He got hints from Elvis who also faked his death! He knew what happened to Elvis all his life because of his celebrity! and that Elvis had also received death threats! 3. He saw what happened to John Lenon and other celebs [MLK, JFK, Lady Di, etc]! he didn't want to wait for that happening to him too!” {SimPattyK, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869)}.
Let me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30).
Nevertheless, even though I have received great opposition from many: I have never received any opposition from the hoax insiders (family, TMZ, etc); quite the opposite, both the family and TMZ have supported TS/TIAI on several occasions {including the recent Too Short article, http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0)}. And this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects; and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
I’ve said the following before, but it is worth repeating. This is the only hoax forum that I have ever posted on, and it is also the only hoax forum or website that TMZ ever linked to in their blogroll; this blogroll is no longer on their home page, but it is still on their website and still has a link to our forum on it {http://www.tmz.com/blogroll (http://www.tmz.com/blogroll)}. For a long time, many have thought that TMZ was just another unreliable tabloid media source—that they have merely been playing with hoax believers, and don’t really have any inside information about the hoax. Well, TS has always supported TMZ; and recently, La Toya also supported TMZ: “But there’s more to the story guys, and Harvey knows that; Harvey Levin knows that (don’t you Harvey).” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0f7T8h3VTM)}.
I could cite many more examples, both from TMZ and the family; however, I have already done that many times in the past, so I only added a couple of newer examples here. But I will close with the following, which sums it up in short. The whole world, INCLUDING HOAX BELIEVERS, need to wake up to the reality of the seriousness of the danger—not for the sake of fear and mind-control, as some people have claimed; but rather for the sake of awareness and preparation: forewarned is forearmed![back in time mode on]
Don't know if this helps: the leaves in the ambulance photo were shopped in. We discussed the leaves were pointing to the FBI logo and involvement. If I recall correctly, these leaves showed up on the outside of an ambulance drawer. [ . . . ]
Regarding the LEAF-pattern that kept showing all through out the hoax,
I made some montages on this thread here: THE CLOTHES "SPEAK" clues TO US (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,20312.50.html)
---> READ on PAGE 3 (replies #72, #73 ) and PAGE 4 (replies #77, #78, #89, #91
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/fbileafpat.jpg)
Police Officer Latoya
They're laughing at her, but the FACT is she really is a Police officer! :icon_e_wink:
Pay attention to what she says between minutes 04:29 and 04:53 - regarding the investigation on Michael's case! how she says she's working with them (the investigators!). Watch her face/eyes when she says 'I'm in contact with them, I'm working with them..." :icon_albino: :icon_e_biggrin:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG3aeZ1QamI[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTfygYFsJ3o[/youtube]
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/fbileajvj.jpg)
POST BY TS ---> http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18964.msg327641.html#msg327641(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Sting.jpg)
[...]
We are now at the most important level: who is the focus of The Sting? [....]
Keep in mind the possibility that more than one person or entity is the focus.
Most specifically, though, we need to investigate whether the entire court is in on the hoax, or could the court itself be the focus of the FBI investigation (or part of the investigation). Some have already proposed this possibility, while others have summarily dismissed it. As always, please do not dismiss any theory until it has been thoroughly debunked. And whatever theory you personally believe, try to debunk your own theory; many hoax investigators are still not doing this.
In favor of the court sting theory, let me point out a few things. Some say that the court did the right thing back in the 2005 acquittal, so why would it be investigated? The reality is that the defense and jury did the right thing, but what about the prosecution? We already know about Aphrodite’s testimony, and Tom Sneddon (TS :lol: ), etc.
We also know that for years the FBI investigated MJ, and the pedophile claim; but they found nothing against MJ. Could it be that in the process of this investigation, the FBI found evidence of corruption in the LA prosecution and the MJ trial? Could it be that as a result, the FBI in cooperation with MJ decided to make the LA court system the focus of a sting operation? Please remember that the “top priority” of the FBI is “public corruption” in government agencies; and their investigation specifically includes “verdicts handed down in courts”
{http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/corruption)}.
We are also at the point, which I mentioned earlier, of running two different coherent theories in parallel. And as we try to put all the pieces together—including the research of previous levels, as well as the new information that we will get during the hearings—hopefully one of the two theories will fall into place, and the other one will fall apart.
Although there are endless minor variations within these two main coherent theories, for the purpose of this level we are only examining two basic theories: the court is in on the hoax, or the court is not in on the hoax (other than the defense, and maybe a few other key people). For the sake of discussion, we can refer to these two theories as “hoax court” and “sting court”.
In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance.
In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD).
In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.
Even though level three is still unresolved, yet we can and should start investigating level four (The Sting).
[ . . . .]
It has been suggested that this would constitute entrapment; but sting versus entrapment does not depend on using a dummy versus a corpse. It would be possible to use a dummy, and still qualify as entrapment, if the job was done so airtight that nobody could figure it out. On the other hand: it would be possible to use a corpse, and not qualify as entrapment, as long as there are plenty of clues and evidence that MJ is still alive. If the hoax forums can figure out that MJ is alive, when most of the members are not even professional investigators, then what excuse would the LA prosecution have for not figuring it out?
[ . . . .]
YOUR ROCK SIM! :bearhug: :th_bravo: I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW HOW YOU HAVE THE TIME TO FIND/REPOST THIS STUFF. :LolLolLolLol:
THANK GOD I COPIED, PASTED & TOOK NOTES ON A WORD DOC. SO I CAN GO BACK; PROBLEM IS I NEVER HAVE TIME...SO MUCH HAS BEEN COVERED.
THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK.
Post by: bec on December 03, 2012, 06:44:27 PM
Quote
Book Description
Release Date: January 6, 2009
When the students in Winchester University’s Logic and Reasoning 204 arrive for their first day of class, they are greeted not with a syllabus or texts, but with a startling assignment from Professor Williams: Find a hypothetical missing girl named Polly. If after being given a series of clues and details the class has not found her before the end of the term in six weeks, she will be murdered.
At first the students are as intrigued by the premise of their puzzle as they are wary of the strange and slightly creepy Professor Williams. But as they delve deeper into the mystery, the boundary between the classroom and the real world is blurred and the students wonder if it is their own lives they are being asked to save.
I checked it out on a tip from a friend. Interesting read, especially based on what we are doing here. I got a hard copy for about 1c with paid shipping off Amazon.
TS doesn't always tell the truth. He has been clear about that for a long time. Sometimes he supports false theories. If you strip away the evidence that has been obtained from TS_comment's quotes, what is left?
Andrea had a good post a while back on FBI numerology:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=317514&#p317514
Quote
I’ve been thinking about the FBI’s involvement, the possible clues they’ve given and numerology.
As we all know, the FBI intended to release 333 pages on Michael Jackson on 12/21 but was delayed a day.
Here is the link I found when googling “Michael Jackson 333 pages”:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/de ... son_122209
Here is the image with that article:
(http://www2.fbi.gov/headlines/mj260.jpg)
See how it clearly says “Michael Joe Jackson”. When you look at the actual 333 pages that were released, the always refer to him as “Michael Joe Jackson” or just “Michael Jackson”.
From the above link, there’s another link at the bottom of that page:
http://www.fbi.gov/foia/electronic-reading-room/michael-joseph-jacksonQuoteMichael Joseph Jackson
Michael Joseph Jackson, a celebrity pop star, was born on August 29, 1958. He died unexpectedly on June 25, 2009 at the age of 50.
Between 1993 and 1994 and separately between 2004 and 2005, Mr. Jackson was investigated by California law enforcement agencies for possible child molestation. He was acquitted of all such charges. The FBI provided technical and investigative assistance to these agencies during the cases. The Bureau also investigated threats made against Mr. Jackson and others by an individual who was later imprisoned for these crimes.
So when the FBI is referring to Michael being dead, they call him “Michael Joseph Jackson”. Very interesting, wouldn’t you say? A deliberate clue like the DC and a subtle reference to an Elvis parallel with the middle name? The Elvis/FBI involvement has been discussed in this thread and many know that his full name is Elvis Aron Presley but on the grave stone it says “Elvis Aaron Presley”.
Which is pretty good proof of FBI awareness and cooperation in the hoax; at least one person at the FBI must be cooperating with MJ in order for these numbers to be inserted into the information (333, 111, 7, 12/21) and for the name discrepancy to be so complete.
But the question that continues to nag at my thoughts is this:
Does some sort of FBI awareness/cooperation mean that a sting is going on? and does proof of the former prove the later by default?
Since TS_comment's DWD patient theory hinges on the FBI sting theory, it may be worthwhile to back track and reevaluate the evidence at the foundation of the theories.
Post by: paula-c on December 03, 2012, 06:59:03 PM
Quote
So I think we have every valid reason to believe that the FBI is helping MJ in the death hoax, for more than just movie and entertainment purposes; they are helping to create the illusion, in order to expose the criminal. “1
I have always thought of this, but so far not seen anything. The only "criminal" that is exposed and " in prison " is Murray
Post by: SimPattyK on December 03, 2012, 07:23:28 PM
I'm having another number(s) momment. :icon_lol: Not sure if this has been discussed in the past already, but I decided to look at the release date of the FBI documents, to see if there's a pattern - if it means there's a connection with FBI.
From Pepsi to death is 9282 days and add another 180 days that is 1-8=7 December 22, 2009 it's 9462 days =21 and 1351 weeks =10
From and including: Thursday, June 25, 2009
To and including: Tuesday, December 222009
It is 181 days = 10
25 weeks = 7
From and including: Tuesday, December 22, 2009
To and including: Friday, December 21, 2012
It is 1096 days =7
156 weeks 12
I've always wondered if CM number 2926725 = 33 and MJ 073164 is 73 =10 1 64=10 = 111 or 3 means anything. :icon_e_confused:
29 mj birthday
26 7 ? if there's 333 pages released out of 600 that's the difference of 267
25 death
:icon_eek:
I think you're onto something with this numerology stuff, @mindseye :icon_e_wink: The date of December 22 appears quite often on the pics I posted on the previous page...
@Sim....you rock :icon_albino::) I don't rock, WE rock !!! we ALL do !! :icon_e_wink: (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Musique/guitare-musique-hard-75.gif) (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Musique/0020.gif) :icon_lol:
Love you too, sis :icon_razz:
BTC, there are thousands of good investigative posts made by smart members (many past), but there’s also the very necessary contribution members still here can make by remembering and condensing, and giving overall statements coming from the past investigations. It’s a daunting task, and unfortunately I have such a rotten memory section of my brain. I can just barely keep up with main threads every day, do a little other investigating – never mind reread some older threads. Though I've been here since the very beginning, I am so thankful for the ones here who can so well remember obscure details from several years ago. :beerchug: I wish I could emplant a 'total recall' computer chip in my brain. :Crash:I fully agree with this whole paragraph^^ We're a TEAM :multiplespotting:(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/grouphnkn.gif) :bearhug:
But it's teamwork, we each do what we can according to our gifts! To all:
:bearhug:
Post by: Andrea on December 03, 2012, 07:36:40 PM
I've thought for quite a while that if there is a sting then it would almost have to be against the "big fish" in the world. To incorporate a sting into such an elaborate hoax would mean the target is of the "TPTB"-scale (white-collar crime to the extreme) because it's not going to take such a hoax to catch some rinky-dink crime ring or whatever. I don't think there's anyone on here who completely denies any FBI involvement in MJ's life or the hoax. It's been established.
bec:
Quote
But the question that continues to nag at my thoughts is this:
Does some sort of FBI awareness/cooperation mean that a sting is going on? and does proof of the former prove the later by default?
That's the part that gets me. How does FBI involvement = sting = DWD patient? That is a genuine question because I don't get it. A sting I can understand based on things Michael and his family have said, MJ stated when Invincible came out that there was a conspiracy against him. And of course the allegations prove that as well. So I get the need to stop these people, whoever they are exactly. But we don't know nearly enough to conclude that a DWD patient was needed for a sting to happen. We can't rely on yet-to-be-determined information/evidence we don't have. I cannot make an informed decision without all the information because to do so would be dismissing a very important lesson that Michael has been trying to teach people for years.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 03, 2012, 07:41:13 PM
YOUR ROCK SIM! :bearhug: :th_bravo: I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW HOW YOU HAVE THE TIME TO FIND/REPOST THIS STUFF. :LolLolLolLol:Thank you! :) :bearhug:
THANK GOD I COPIED, PASTED & TOOK NOTES ON A WORD DOC. SO I CAN GO BACK; PROBLEM IS I NEVER HAVE TIME...SO MUCH HAS BEEN COVERED.
THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK.
Well ...as for the time... I DON'T have time! it's 03:36 a.m. here ;) But I DO have insomia :icon_lol: I might use some "milk" right now :icon_lol:
And as for HOW I find all these things.... it's no secret.... it's easy to search through TS & TS-Comments posts when you know the approximate period when he had posted certain things and regarding my own stuff, I have it all indexed/organized on my PC, so it doesn't take too much time to find what I want.
And yes, there's been a TON of info that has come our way over the years....and it takes time to sort through it all.@BTC: (http://smileys.sur-la-toile.com/repository/Musique/0055.gif) :icon_e_wink:
What I find pointless is supplying/doing the work for those that are either 'mocking' a theory or are closed off to even giving it any credibility.
It's like trying to convince those who still think Mike's dead...and are not genuinely looking for answers or willing to do the work themselves.
Of course, everyone is free to do as they please... it's not worth my time though when genuine intent is not evident.
We've been building a puzzle together for 3 1/2 years...and it took a lot of teamwork to get us to a semi-coherent picture. NO MATTER WHAT we do or how much we go back and forth...the picture will NOT be complete until after the BAM. If people want to spend their time dismantling the picture we have built...then so be it (although it should've been requested in the proper/relevant thread(s), IMO, if we are trying to keep the forum streamlined).
It would be nice though if people were more mindful of their comments.
@Adi & Sim...great reminders, thanks for sharing.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 03, 2012, 08:03:35 PM
I don't think there's anyone on here who completely denies any FBI involvement in MJ's life or the hoax.Read a few pages back! :icon_e_wink: you missed some comments ...
That's the part that gets me. How does FBI involvement = sting = DWD patient? That is a genuine question because I don't get it.I know what you mean. But the same goes for both theories! can you proove with 100% certainty ANY of these theories that we've been discussing so far?
[ . . . . ]
But we don't know nearly enough to conclude that a DWD patient was needed for a sting to happen. We can't rely on yet-to-be-determined information/evidence we don't have.
On the other hand, I think TS has provided enough evidence in favor of the DWD theory and also debunked certain parts of the other theory. Anyway, that just my opinion.
As I've said once before, we have 2 plausible theories, right!? YET we CAN'T possibly know, with 100% certainty, which one is true! at least NOT until after the BAM.
WHat do we do in this case?
I think this is one of those moments when we need to "play" the TRUST card! and not rely entirely on reasoning!
We've done that all these past 3 + years! We've questioned/doubted, researched, investigated, denied, accepted, etc...
Now, I definitely think we should just BELIEVE and be PATIENT! The end is close...and the truth will come out!
I cannot make an informed decision without all the information because to do so would be dismissing a very important lesson that Michael has been trying to teach people for years.No matter what theory people decide to go for, nobody that has been dedicating his/her time in this hoax, all this time, nobody can say/accuse us of "dismissing Michael's lesson".
We are all winners no matter what the outcome of all this will turn out to be! :woohoo2: :bearhug: Don't worry , be happy! :multiplespotting:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 03, 2012, 08:09:53 PM
That's the part that gets me. How does FBI involvement = sting = DWD patient?Either I am too tired now or I just simply can't explain it more clear ....
But I think the answer to your question lies somewhere in those 2 quotes here below:
A DWD patient ended their own life and was not the victim of manslaughter,Yes, Adi...that makes perfect sense. TS had asked us to think of what was alleged and what wasn't. It makes sense that anything following the charge of manslaughter, which wasn't alleged, would have to be 'alleged' since there was no victim of manslaughter and no manslaughter took place on June 25th.
therefore they are an "alleged victim"of manslaughter.
Since there was no manslaughter there also was no date for manslaughter to occur on...
...therefore it is an "alleged" date.
It also makes perfect sense that if the trial was only for a movie/entertainment purposes, there would've been absolutely no need to include the use of 'alleged' in the verdict.
Post by: bec on December 03, 2012, 08:26:44 PM
I think what Andrea and are I trying to say is clues to FBI involvement do not automatically prove the existence of an FBI sting going on. Involvement could be cooperation, clearance, approval, condoning, etc. FBI cooperation, for example, doesn't have to be a sting operation. The FBI do lots of other things besides just sting operations. That's why I was asking if anyone wanted to organize a list of reasons or evidences for the sting theory, because proving it's validity is imperative to the strength of the DWD theory.
Post by: Andrea on December 03, 2012, 08:39:06 PM
That's the part that gets me. How does FBI involvement = sting = DWD patient?Either I am too tired now or I just simply can't explain it more clear ....
But I think the answer to your question lies somewhere in those 2 quotes here below:A DWD patient ended their own life and was not the victim of manslaughter,Yes, Adi...that makes perfect sense. TS had asked us to think of what was alleged and what wasn't. It makes sense that anything following the charge of manslaughter, which wasn't alleged, would have to be 'alleged' since there was no victim of manslaughter and no manslaughter took place on June 25th.
therefore they are an "alleged victim"of manslaughter.
Since there was no manslaughter there also was no date for manslaughter to occur on...
...therefore it is an "alleged" date.
It also makes perfect sense that if the trial was only for a movie/entertainment purposes, there would've been absolutely no need to include the use of 'alleged' in the verdict.
Thank you for those quotes, I had read them before as well. A sting can still happen without a dead body and that verdict can be read in a number of different ways, as shown in this thread. I understand the aspects of both theories (DWD vs no DWD), I really do. Both theories are missing that one piece of incontrovertible incriminating evidence. Which seems deliberate now that I think about it. No wonder Front got the popcorn out!
Post by: voiceforthesilent on December 03, 2012, 11:33:41 PM
There's no need to add MJ beat boxing "keep-a-watchin" to the TII billy jean intro either and they did that. There's no need to add Liberian Girl pics to the memorial slides and on the stage and booklets at the burial. There's no need for all sorts of clues and hints that have been dropped over the years other then to keep us entertained.
I think what Andrea and are I trying to say is clues to FBI involvement do not automatically prove the existence of an FBI sting going on. Involvement could be cooperation, clearance, approval, condoning, etc. FBI cooperation, for example, doesn't have to be a sting operation. The FBI do lots of other things besides just sting operations. That's why I was asking if anyone wanted to organize a list of reasons or evidences for the sting theory, because proving it's validity is imperative to the strength of the DWD theory.
Bec - you and Andrea make a great point. I've been thinking about this as well. Just because we see the FBI involvement doesn't mean it's a sting.
But what I've been thinking is this - Marlon wore the FBI hat which made us look the direction of FBI (at least it did for me). Was that before or after the files were released? Anyways, it was supposedly Charles Thomson that asked for the FBI files to be released and that has made me wonder for a long time whether he's somehow involved. I know he's somewhat controversial but he's done is part in helping with the vindication efforts.
I guess what I've pondered is that maybe the references to the FBI has more to do with the files and 333 pages released, including the intended release date then it does the actual involvement of the organization.
If it's a sting maybe the FBI has been investigating those that were trying to exhort money from MJ? I know it's been quiet and Jordan's dad committed suicide (on 11/5??) but maybe the sting/investigation is surrounding the ones that led the efforts of false accusation. I need to get to bed but will think about this even though my efforts will be weak because I don't support the sting theory.
Blessings
Post by: wishingstar on December 03, 2012, 11:59:24 PM
degella shows up on these photos, which I think we have seen listed:
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/michael-jacksons-ladies/images/22529955/title/mj-de-gella-fanart
*not my cup of tea website, btw.....I think it's kinda odd, as in really odd. But thought I'd post it.......
we have the play on the word "manslaughter" to "mans laughter" ....just thinking outside the box.
Blessings Always
Post by: emulik on December 04, 2012, 01:44:25 AM
I think the "popcorn"-.gif was a reaction of Front, because we wrote 3 or 4 pages full of comments, that we were so excited for TS' post.exactly what I was thinking!
NOT that he was smiling about a (possible) DWD patient.
@everyone..great team work, I just love your brainstorming! :bearhug:
@Sim...you are right, December 22 appears very often in your montage, it seems to be a special date :icon_razz:
Post by: ellyd on December 04, 2012, 02:35:37 AM
"alleged" backwards is "degella"
degella shows up on these photos, which I think we have seen listed:
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/michael-jacksons-ladies/images/22529955/title/mj-de-gella-fanart
*not my cup of tea website, btw.....I think it's kinda odd, as in really odd. But thought I'd post it.......
we have the play on the word "manslaughter" to "mans laughter" ....just thinking outside the box.
Blessings Always
Thanks for the laugh of the day.
Gella De
Wonder how many more masterpieces went unnoticed to date.
Post by: Adi on December 04, 2012, 02:45:29 AM
"alleged" backwards is "degella"
degella shows up on these photos, which I think we have seen listed:
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/michael-jacksons-ladies/images/22529955/title/mj-de-gella-fanart
*not my cup of tea website, btw.....I think it's kinda odd, as in really odd. But thought I'd post it.......
we have the play on the word "manslaughter" to "mans laughter" ....just thinking outside the box.
Blessings Always
Thanks for the laugh of the day.
Gella De
Wonder how many more masterpieces went unnoticed to date.
Shows off their Photo Shop skills :fresse:
Post by: MJonmind on December 04, 2012, 03:56:54 AM
The admin at MJJC apparently said MJ had sometimes visited and especially liked the threads of women telling how they felt about him... :icon_lol:
Bec, are you saying we deserve a degree in Logic and Reasoning for our 4 years of intensive study?
(http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww343/CPAPAARTHUR/BETTY%20BOOP/th_graduate.gif)
Yes, all it would take was one ‘aware’ FBI agent for MJ’s hoax, uh one who was well versed in numerology.
“Who would ever suspect that I was a federal agent.”
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycbDlP2yQQ[/youtube]
Also Murray may be an agent as well.
Voice, it was not Charles Thomson who asked for the MJ files to be released but Brian Oxman. :icon_e_smile:
TS on May 2,11
Quote
In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance.So level three is not completed because “most agree that a corpse was not used”. If we HAD agreed a corpse was used, we would have completed level 3. :affraid:
In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD).
In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.
Even though level three is still unresolved, yet we can and should start investigating level four (The Sting).
Post by: SimPattyK on December 04, 2012, 05:39:51 AM
There's no need to add MJ beat boxing "keep-a-watchin" to the TII billy jean intro either and they did that.I think the need was for Michael to create his validity/credibility as Back and Front on the forum.
I mean besides confirmations from the family, he verified himself... so to speak...
There's no need to add Liberian Girl pics to the memorial slides and on the stage and booklets at the burial.Those pics were an important comforting visual clue for the fans who were (most of them) suffering and crying! To most those pics didn't meant anything at that time, they didn't realize it then (me neither! I was still in shock...and had tears in my eyes during the most moving moments of the memorial), but I think those pics , alongside the other numerous clues had a very strong calming effect on the few, but very observant fans who noticed them right then when it all happened.
I think this was Michael's purpose: to make at least a small amount of fans feel better when seeing them.
There's no need for all sorts of clues and hints that have been dropped over the years other then to keep us entertained.i must disagree here too. I think every single detail was carefully planned and thought before hand and everything MEANT something important. Nothing was done at hazard... nothing was superficial nor superfluous. Such a minutely prepared hoax cannot have useless elements in it! At least that's how I perceive it to be, that's how I perceive Michael..as the perfectionist he is and almost obsessed with details! I highly doubt anything was done just like that... for the sake of it! Everything was intended and charged with a definite scope and effect!
I think what Andrea and are I trying to say is clues to FBI involvement do not automatically prove the existence of an FBI sting going on.Could be! maybe! perhaps!
Involvement could be cooperation, clearance, approval, condoning, etc.
IMo the evidence presented by TS (not just in his last posts, but on all his posts on the FBI sting) contains much more certainty than those doubting "could be-s", even if TS clearly didn't tell us everything! either because he doesn't know everything (as he clearly said it) OR because he CAN'T tell us everything , not YET (because "The BEST is YET to come!")
FBI cooperation, for example, doesn't have to be a sting operation. The FBI do lots of other things besides just sting operations.Yes of course, FBI operations are not uniquely/strictly focused on organizing STINGs.
But so far, throughout this hoax, we've seen many signs, clues and also direct hints made by TS and also by the family (LaToya), that at least in this death hoax, the FBI involvement is focused on a STING operation meant to reveal a conspiracy! the word conspiracy had been mentioned countless times by Michael and his family in numerous interviews!!
A conspiracy of that caliber (2 false allegation trials + money extortion + album sabotage - "Invincible" + death threats + media bashing) can only be stopped with the help/involvement of an authority such as FBI and the best "modus-operandi" in such cases is the STING!
TS dedicated 2 levels and several large posts on the subject of FBI and the STING!
I think we should NOT dismiss this as just a mere 'TS-prank/test".
he may have "played' with us here and there, throwing some small false leads to us, to check if we follow that blindly or we use our logic!
But I doubt he had invested so much time and energy on this them (FBI - sting operation) just for all to be a farse for us!
That's why the DWD theory seems to be the most plausible of all! because in such serious case, for such a sting, FBI doesn't "play with dolls/dummies and other weak materials like that! things HAD to be as REAL as possible!!! FBI never leaves place for mistakes! they don't want to compromise the work of so many people (most paid with public money) by working with "plastic-patients" !
PLUS: remember, we still don't have all the subjects targeted by this sting! Who knows what dark affairs FBI intends to uncover/prove/de-conspire through the use of the DWD practice!!
Post by: SimPattyK on December 04, 2012, 05:55:38 AM
@Sim...you are right, December 22 appears very often in your montage, it seems to be a special date :icon_razz:YEP! that date occurs quite often in hoax-related events!
I think we should pay more attention to it, even if so far December 22 didn't seem a like BAM-date!
I don't know why, but I am having this feeling... this number 22 = 11 + 11 ...this thread dated 11-11-11, then we have the 9/11 attacks...there's something about 11 ...and there are still some things that made me just ponder more on this date of 22 !! can't put my finger on it right now... But ever since I saw @mindseye's post regarding numerology of December 22... I felt like 'the penny dropped' kind of feeling, you know what I mean!?
"alleged" backwards is "degella"ROFL :thjajaja121:
degella shows up on these photos, which I think we have seen listed:
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/michael-jacksons-ladies/images/22529955/title/mj-de-gella-fanart
*not my cup of tea website, btw.....I think it's kinda odd, as in really odd. But thought I'd post it.......
we have the play on the word "manslaughter" to "mans laughter" ....just thinking outside the box.
Yes, all it would take was one ‘aware’ FBI agent for MJ’s hoax, uh one who was well versed in numerology.YES :icon_bounce: YES :icon_bounce: YES :icon_bounce:
“Who would ever suspect that I was a federal agent.”
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycbDlP2yQQ[/youtube]
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 04, 2012, 06:50:14 AM
Yes but if Michael has been threaten so many times and I am not doubting it, how the heck is he gonna reappear in public? who can tell him that he is not gonna have more threats in a future? :omg:
Agree. Jmo, but I think he will always need a tight level of security regardless if he bams or never does.
Someone of his status are always open target.
#not fair!
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 04, 2012, 07:03:44 AM
There's no need to add MJ beat boxing "keep-a-watchin" to the TII billy jean intro either and they did that. There's no need to add Liberian Girl pics to the memorial slides and on the stage and booklets at the burial. There's no need for all sorts of clues and hints that have been dropped over the years other then to keep us entertained.
I think what Andrea and are I trying to say is clues to FBI involvement do not automatically prove the existence of an FBI sting going on. Involvement could be cooperation, clearance, approval, condoning, etc. FBI cooperation, for example, doesn't have to be a sting operation. The FBI do lots of other things besides just sting operations. That's why I was asking if anyone wanted to organize a list of reasons or evidences for the sting theory, because proving it's validity is imperative to the strength of the DWD theory.
Bec - you and Andrea make a great point. I've been thinking about this as well. Just because we see the FBI involvement doesn't mean it's a sting.
But what I've been thinking is this - Marlon wore the FBI hat which made us look the direction of FBI (at least it did for me). Was that before or after the files were released? Anyways, it was supposedly Charles Thomson that asked for the FBI files to be released and that has made me wonder for a long time whether he's somehow involved. I know he's somewhat controversial but he's done is part in helping with the vindication efforts.
I guess what I've pondered is that maybe the references to the FBI has more to do with the files and 333 pages released, including the intended release date then it does the actual involvement of the organization.
If it's a sting maybe the FBI has been investigating those that were trying to exhort money from MJ? I know it's been quiet and Jordan's dad committed suicide (on 11/5??) but maybe the sting/investigation is surrounding the ones that led the efforts of false accusation. I need to get to bed but will think about this even though my efforts will be weak because I don't support the sting theory.
Blessings
@voice. Interesting post / perspective. I like :)
@adi - yeah 'memory' that's my main problem. I read a lot. Understatement! But it's retaining it all that is difficult. My ability to hold onto the fine technical (Esp numerical & names) information is a challenge for me. I admire the many on the forum who not only hold onto the information, but are able to look it up in their memory like a telefax and quote verbatim on demand. Flaws me!
My short term memory is a shocker! I am def a visual person. Love pictures and montages (thanks sim!)
@ Btc, I think a lot of the 'forgetting' isn't deliberate. There are some that genuinely struggle to remember everything.
Having said that just want to say how much I value this place and how incredible you all are and your research!
#doin MJ proud - smartest fans!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 04, 2012, 07:29:22 AM
Post by: Andrea on December 04, 2012, 08:14:16 AM
There's no need to add MJ beat boxing "keep-a-watchin" to the TII billy jean intro either and they did that. There's no need to add Liberian Girl pics to the memorial slides and on the stage and booklets at the burial. There's no need for all sorts of clues and hints that have been dropped over the years other then to keep us entertained.
I think what Andrea and are I trying to say is clues to FBI involvement do not automatically prove the existence of an FBI sting going on. Involvement could be cooperation, clearance, approval, condoning, etc. FBI cooperation, for example, doesn't have to be a sting operation. The FBI do lots of other things besides just sting operations. That's why I was asking if anyone wanted to organize a list of reasons or evidences for the sting theory, because proving it's validity is imperative to the strength of the DWD theory.
Bec - you and Andrea make a great point. I've been thinking about this as well. Just because we see the FBI involvement doesn't mean it's a sting.
But what I've been thinking is this - Marlon wore the FBI hat which made us look the direction of FBI (at least it did for me). Was that before or after the files were released? Anyways, it was supposedly Charles Thomson that asked for the FBI files to be released and that has made me wonder for a long time whether he's somehow involved. I know he's somewhat controversial but he's done is part in helping with the vindication efforts.
I guess what I've pondered is that maybe the references to the FBI has more to do with the files and 333 pages released, including the intended release date then it does the actual involvement of the organization.
If it's a sting maybe the FBI has been investigating those that were trying to exhort money from MJ? I know it's been quiet and Jordan's dad committed suicide (on 11/5??) but maybe the sting/investigation is surrounding the ones that led the efforts of false accusation. I need to get to bed but will think about this even though my efforts will be weak because I don't support the sting theory.
Blessings
I can't remember which came first, Marlon's FBI hat or the files released. I thought it was Brian Oxman who requested the FBI release their files on MJ through the Freedom of Information act. He said that as an attorney, he knew the FBI were significantly involved in MJ's life and he put his request in August 2009 to have the files released. He also said he was 99.9% sure the ambulance photo was fake. Those two together indicates the Mr. Oxman is involved in the hoax. The files were meant to be released on 12/21/09 but were delayed a day...what was the reason, weather? 12/21/09 was also the date TIAI was revealed, part 1.
I agree that FBI involvement does not absolutely have to involve a sting. But I also see that it very well could, that if the FBI are going to be involved anyways, why not catch some baddies at the same time? Either way, an actual sting is hard to prove with any certainty.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 04, 2012, 08:27:08 AM
If it's a sting maybe the FBI has been investigating those that were trying to exhort money from MJ? I know it's been quiet and Jordan's dad committed suicide (on 11/5??) but maybe the sting/investigation is surrounding the ones that led the efforts of false accusation.
My thoughts are along these lines as well. The notion that Sneddon 'worked alone' or was even the prime 'instigator' of the charges (which were ONE part of the conspiracy to destroy Mike)...is, IMO, as 'naive' as thinking that Mike would've been able to pull something of this magnitude off with help from only ONE 'key' person in the FBI. Sure, there may be ONE 'key' person in charge of things on the FBI-side of the hoax (and even that is a bit 'naive', IMO, when the enormity of the 'plan' is acknowledged)...but even if, there's no way that only ONE person would've been able to organize AND execute the plan. I'm about positive that Sneddon was paid pretty well for his 'role'....WHO was filling his pockets, I believe, has something (possibly everything) to do with the sting. And I don't think his 'dirty money' came from one source or entity....much like the hoax, the conspiracy against Mike was huge...and involved a lot of planning, time, money, and resources.
Sim:
Quote
Yes of course, FBI operations are not uniquely/strictly focused on organizing STINGs.
But so far, throughout this hoax, we've seen many signs, clues and also direct hints made by TS and also by the family (LaToya), that at least in this death hoax, the FBI involvement is focused on a STING operation meant to reveal a conspiracy! the word conspiracy had been mentioned countless times by Michael and his family in numerous interviews!!
A conspiracy of that caliber (2 false allegation trials + money extortion + album sabotage - "Invincible" + death threats + media bashing) can only be stopped with the help/involvement of an authority such as FBI and the best "modus-operandi" in such cases is the STING!
TS dedicated 2 levels and several large posts on the subject of FBI and the STING!
I think we should NOT dismiss this as just a mere 'TS-prank/test".
he may have "played' with us here and there, throwing some small false leads to us, to check if we follow that blindly or we use our logic!
But I doubt he had invested so much time and energy on this them (FBI - sting operation) just for all to be a farse for us!
That's why the DWD theory seems to be the most plausible of all! because in such serious case, for such a sting, FBI doesn't "play with dolls/dummies and other weak materials like that! things HAD to be as REAL as possible!!! FBI never leaves place for mistakes! they don't want to compromise the work of so many people (most paid with public money) by working with "plastic-patients" !
PLUS: remember, we still don't have all the subjects targeted by this sting! Who knows what dark affairs FBI intends to uncover/prove/de-conspire through the use of the DWD practice!!
I agree. Sure, the FBI engages in other activities than just sting operations, that's a given. But they also DO engage in stings, that's a fact. And when they do engage in sting operations, there is the need to ensure avoidance of entrapment. Have there been any 'signs'/clues that point to things having been put in place to avoid entrapment these past 3 1/2 years? If there is no sting, WHY the need to do anything to avoid entrapment? If there is an FBI sting in place...it is, IMO, again very 'naive' to think that amateurish scenario's would've been ok'd by them. And when everything is taken into account (the enormity of the hoax)....using a dummy in place of a 'real body' OR having MJ play the part himself 'for fun' or so he could be the 'director' (which even so...doesn't mean, in the least, that he HAD to be on-scene anyway, especially in this day and age)...would signify very amateurish planning. Based on what we do know about both the FBI and Mike....I find it very hard to envision anything 'amateurish' in their planning or execution.
As for the verdict....sure, it could be read any way we like. BUT, the fact remains that the use of 'alleged' in a verdict is NOT common practice....it, in essence, nullifies the verdict (which is why it's NEVER used in verdicts). With all the other clues we had...given to us to ease our minds during the trial....WHY would something that could be LEGALLY challenged have been used as merely a 'clue'? We can either view it's usage as merely a 'clue' for us hoaxers...or we can dig a little deeper and see that it could also AND more importantly, have been used to avoid entrapment. Which would take us back to the question of....if there is no sting, WHY the need to avoid entrapment?
@Wish...I LOVE when you chime in :icon_razz:
@Aussie...I don't doubt that some forgetfulness is genuine, not at all (there's SO much to remember!). I have always respected the fact that you dug into the hoax with both hands (and feet lol) and put the time and effort in on your own initiative :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: voiceforthesilent on December 04, 2012, 09:09:15 AM
There's no need to add MJ beat boxing "keep-a-watchin" to the TII billy jean intro either and they did that. There's no need to add Liberian Girl pics to the memorial slides and on the stage and booklets at the burial. There's no need for all sorts of clues and hints that have been dropped over the years other then to keep us entertained.
I think what Andrea and are I trying to say is clues to FBI involvement do not automatically prove the existence of an FBI sting going on. Involvement could be cooperation, clearance, approval, condoning, etc. FBI cooperation, for example, doesn't have to be a sting operation. The FBI do lots of other things besides just sting operations. That's why I was asking if anyone wanted to organize a list of reasons or evidences for the sting theory, because proving it's validity is imperative to the strength of the DWD theory.
Bec - you and Andrea make a great point. I've been thinking about this as well. Just because we see the FBI involvement doesn't mean it's a sting.
But what I've been thinking is this - Marlon wore the FBI hat which made us look the direction of FBI (at least it did for me). Was that before or after the files were released? Anyways, it was supposedly Charles Thomson that asked for the FBI files to be released and that has made me wonder for a long time whether he's somehow involved. I know he's somewhat controversial but he's done is part in helping with the vindication efforts.
I guess what I've pondered is that maybe the references to the FBI has more to do with the files and 333 pages released, including the intended release date then it does the actual involvement of the organization.
If it's a sting maybe the FBI has been investigating those that were trying to exhort money from MJ? I know it's been quiet and Jordan's dad committed suicide (on 11/5??) but maybe the sting/investigation is surrounding the ones that led the efforts of false accusation. I need to get to bed but will think about this even though my efforts will be weak because I don't support the sting theory.
Blessings
I can't remember which came first, Marlon's FBI hat or the files released. I thought it was Brian Oxman who requested the FBI release their files on MJ through the Freedom of Information act. He said that as an attorney, he knew the FBI were significantly involved in MJ's life and he put his request in August 2009 to have the files released. He also said he was 99.9% sure the ambulance photo was fake. Those two together indicates the Mr. Oxman is involved in the hoax. The files were meant to be released on 12/21/09 but were delayed a day...what was the reason, weather? 12/21/09 was also the date TIAI was revealed, part 1.
I agree that FBI involvement does not absolutely have to involve a sting. But I also see that it very well could, that if the FBI are going to be involved anyways, why not catch some baddies at the same time? Either way, an actual sting is hard to prove with any certainty.
Thanks MJonmind and Andrea - for me it's even better if it's Brian Oxman. I've always wondered why they waited until after d-day (8/2009) to have them released when they could have done this any time before? I believe the answer is probably that the skeptical world would not believe the reports or maybe think that they've been doctored by MJ's group to make it look better.
I believe they came out around Christmas time 2009, if I remember correctly.
I found out that we saw Marlon with that FBI hat on June 26, 2009 - so it was right out of the gate. He was also seen wearing it in the reality show that they did.
Have to get to work - have a blessed day!
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 09:52:07 AM
There's no need to add MJ beat boxing "keep-a-watchin" to the TII billy jean intro either and they did that.I think the need was for Michael to create his validity/credibility as Back and Front on the forum.
I mean besides confirmations from the family, he verified himself... so to speak...There's no need to add Liberian Girl pics to the memorial slides and on the stage and booklets at the burial.Those pics were an important comforting visual clue for the fans who were (most of them) suffering and crying! To most those pics didn't meant anything at that time, they didn't realize it then (me neither! I was still in shock...and had tears in my eyes during the most moving moments of the memorial), but I think those pics , alongside the other numerous clues had a very strong calming effect on the few, but very observant fans who noticed them right then when it all happened.
I think this was Michael's purpose: to make at least a small amount of fans feel better when seeing them.There's no need for all sorts of clues and hints that have been dropped over the years other then to keep us entertained.i must disagree here too. I think every single detail was carefully planned and thought before hand and everything MEANT something important. Nothing was done at hazard... nothing was superficial nor superfluous. Such a minutely prepared hoax cannot have useless elements in it! At least that's how I perceive it to be, that's how I perceive Michael..as the perfectionist he is and almost obsessed with details! I highly doubt anything was done just like that... for the sake of it! Everything was intended and charged with a definite scope and effect!I think what Andrea and are I trying to say is clues to FBI involvement do not automatically prove the existence of an FBI sting going on.Could be! maybe! perhaps!
Involvement could be cooperation, clearance, approval, condoning, etc.
IMo the evidence presented by TS (not just in his last posts, but on all his posts on the FBI sting) contains much more certainty than those doubting "could be-s", even if TS clearly didn't tell us everything! either because he doesn't know everything (as he clearly said it) OR because he CAN'T tell us everything , not YET (because "The BEST is YET to come!")FBI cooperation, for example, doesn't have to be a sting operation. The FBI do lots of other things besides just sting operations.Yes of course, FBI operations are not uniquely/strictly focused on organizing STINGs.
But so far, throughout this hoax, we've seen many signs, clues and also direct hints made by TS and also by the family (LaToya), that at least in this death hoax, the FBI involvement is focused on a STING operation meant to reveal a conspiracy! the word conspiracy had been mentioned countless times by Michael and his family in numerous interviews!!
A conspiracy of that caliber (2 false allegation trials + money extortion + album sabotage - "Invincible" + death threats + media bashing) can only be stopped with the help/involvement of an authority such as FBI and the best "modus-operandi" in such cases is the STING!
TS dedicated 2 levels and several large posts on the subject of FBI and the STING!
I think we should NOT dismiss this as just a mere 'TS-prank/test".
he may have "played' with us here and there, throwing some small false leads to us, to check if we follow that blindly or we use our logic!
But I doubt he had invested so much time and energy on this them (FBI - sting operation) just for all to be a farse for us!
That's why the DWD theory seems to be the most plausible of all! because in such serious case, for such a sting, FBI doesn't "play with dolls/dummies and other weak materials like that! things HAD to be as REAL as possible!!! FBI never leaves place for mistakes! they don't want to compromise the work of so many people (most paid with public money) by working with "plastic-patients" !
PLUS: remember, we still don't have all the subjects targeted by this sting! Who knows what dark affairs FBI intends to uncover/prove/de-conspire through the use of the DWD practice!!
I agree with you, there is/was all along a need for clues because this is a game, and the point/purpose is to think for yourself and discover the truth-- MJ isn't dead. So the beat boxing keep-a-watchin is a clue that back is valid, Liberian girl pics are a clue MJ is behind the camera and punking the audience, "alleged" is a clue to CourtTV watchers that the trial is staged. A DWD patient doesn't need an alleged date of death, they actually would have died on that day. Semantics gymnastics are needed to explain the use of alleged in conjunction with the date to make it fit with an actual DWD patient in this scenario.
Regarding all the past clues MJ dropped about "conspiracy" and "they" trying to harm him, I'd like to pose this thought to the group. It's the thought that has always given me trouble with this portion of the plot that TS_comments is selling. If MJ was in fear for his life and believed there was a conspiracy to destroy him, WHY would he not go directly to the authorities? Why would he simply drop hints about it in media interviews for YEARS? Why would he talk to a random Rabbi and allow these statements to be taped? Why would he call people who aren't particularly close to him and leave messages on answering machines about it? Why would he talk about it in situations where he was liable to be taped/recorded and his words to be then publicly broadcasted? Why not go directly to the authorities with this fear? He's MJ, the most famous face in the world, and if he's being extorted, and truly in fear for his life, talking to a Rabbi isn't going to help keep him, or his children safe.
Re: DWD theory, again, it rests upon a foundation of the FBI sting operation theory being real. If we cannot prove the sting operation, the DWD theory remains without a leg in one corner.
MJ has invested a ton of serious time and energy in this ARG so I do not believe he considers any of it frivolous. He has punked the entire world in an elaborate effort of deception. Why would he not also punk US? I think it would be foolish of us to underestimate what this man is capable of, and to proceed without eyes wide open as to the potential that we are not too smart to fall for his pranks.
Remember, the deaders say that MJ wouldn't invest so much time in energy in faking his death as a farce and fool his fans. And yet we collectively take this truth for granted.
I have long said I believe there is a sting going on... but it is against the media and the fans. In that way I do not believe it is a criminal sting; no one will go to jail, simply lessons will be learned. The clues dropped to prevent entrapment prevent the fans and media (and members of the general public) from complaining after the fact that they were fooled so completely that NO ONE could have seen through it. We, fed by these clues being dropped all along, PROVE there was no entrapment. We prove that anyone could have figured out the truth (MJ=not dead).
We may also be the targets of a sting as yet unidentified.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 04, 2012, 10:29:11 AM
1) Heavy backlash - those who 'doubted'/still doubt Mike's character or innocence, or even those 'fans' who fell for the 'death' and suffered through it...will not take having been 'punked' just for a 'game' lightly. I don't see how this will help to 'remove any stains'...rather, it will add a few more. What 'hoaxers' think won't matter...we are, and always have been, in the minority
2) Jail time - it is a federal crime to make false statements to govt officials (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements)).
If ANYTHING other than a real corpse was used AND if the FBI is not involved, then many laws have been broken in these past 3 1/2 years...ranging from making false statements, to falsifying legal documents, to using emergency resources (ambulance, EMT's, hospital) for 'fun', to perjury, to using public resources---coroner, courtroom, judge, jury, DA's office, LAFD, etc etc etc---under false pretenses. If the general backlash of the public finding out it was all just a 'game' isn't enough....he should be ready for some HEAVY backlash from taxpayers who fund these entities and, who for the most part, are trying to make ends meet in a struggling economy.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: RK on December 04, 2012, 10:46:48 AM
However, if his life was threatened and there was gov't agencies cooperating and working within the hoax, then when the truth does come out, there will not be the uproar about being lied to or fooled. After all....who could blame one for doing what is necessary to survive. FBI involvement allows MJ to BAM in the appointed and perfect timing, and come out of it all vindicated, wrongs righted and most of all blameless for the whole thing.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 04, 2012, 10:59:16 AM
If this is all only for a movie and entertainment and there was never any real conspiracy or danger to MJ, then I hope he never bams. Because the general public and some fans will not take it well.[massive understatement] There will be backlash like he's never experienced.
However, if his life was threatened and there was gov't agencies cooperating and working within the hoax, then when the truth does come out, there will not be the uproar about being lied to or fooled. After all....who could blame one for doing what is necessary to survive. FBI involvement allows MJ to BAM in the appointed and perfect timing, and come out of it all vindicated, wrongs righted and most of all blameless for the whole thing.
Completely agree with everything you said RK....from start to finish, especially the bolded part. If that's the case, that it's all just a game OR a sting against the media and fans...then for his own sake, he's better off staying 'dead' and living his life FAR away from the public eye.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 04, 2012, 11:02:00 AM
We will never completely know until Bam on whom the sting is, so we can't even try to guess...because we have not been there. Similarly we cannot prove the FBI involvement till Bam, FBI won't plant clues... that would be highly dangerous...
Post by: wishingstar on December 04, 2012, 11:02:24 AM
However, I'd never assume that it rests on our uncovering of said clues. I am sure Michael had thought of things well in advance...and most likely lead us down a garden path or two. If this is an ARG of sorts with a sting, the main "sting factor" has to be the fans and media.....in my opinion as well. I think the fallout of it may hit other's as well....pharmaceutical companies re-evaluating their ways, emergency personal training harder for faster response/better driving (lol), states looking into crooked branches of the judiciary systems, artists in the recording industry learning to protect themselves ....all sorts of things have gone on in 3.5 years, I am sure of it. All by natural fallout from Michael's supposed death. The sting and shock when he retakes the world's stage, however he chooses, is going to be a huge shift once again. His death clogged up the internet....think what his resurrection will do. For this little hoaxer, it will be redemption of the mind for sure. I feel like I have been broken into pieces. But, I know there's a light coming at the end of the tunnel. I am more calm in the anticipation of BAM, than ever before. Whatever happened June 25th, 2009, it was for the of good things......whether an escape for Michael, an adventure for us, a sting against whoever.......whether a DWD person was used, a dummy was used, Michael himself, or nothing.....it was all for good. I guess that's where faith kicks in.....just believe in it all.
Blessings Always
PS> just read you BTC and RK......great posts all the way around...thank you!
Post by: SimPattyK on December 04, 2012, 11:06:59 AM
+ 3 :icon_e_wink:i completely agree with BTC and RK, if this is just a sting against fans and media, then the public will turn sceptical and judgemental more than ever. [...]If this is all only for a movie and entertainment and there was never any real conspiracy or danger to MJ, then I hope he never bams. Because the general public and some fans will not take it well.[massive understatement] There will be backlash like he's never experienced.Completely agree with everything you said RK....from start to finish, especially the bolded part. If that's the case, that it's all just a game OR a sting against the media and fans...then for his own sake, he's better off staying 'dead' and living his life FAR away from the public eye.
However, if his life was threatened and there was gov't agencies cooperating and working within the hoax, then when the truth does come out, there will not be the uproar about being lied to or fooled. After all....who could blame one for doing what is necessary to survive. FBI involvement allows MJ to BAM in the appointed and perfect timing, and come out of it all vindicated, wrongs righted and most of all blameless for the whole thing.
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 04, 2012, 11:15:27 AM
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 11:16:41 AM
Well bec...maybe you're right and it's all just a 'game'. I have never felt it was and still don't...far from it actually. But, if your thinking is correct, then I hope Mike is ready for:
1) Heavy backlash - those who 'doubted'/still doubt Mike's character or innocence, or even those 'fans' who fell for the 'death' and suffered through it...will not take having been 'punked' just for a 'game' lightly. I don't see how this will help to 'remove any stains'...rather, it will add a few more. What 'hoaxers' think won't matter...we are, and always have been, in the minority
2) Jail time - it is a federal crime to make false statements to govt officials (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements)).
If ANYTHING other than a real corpse was used AND if the FBI is not involved, then many laws have been broken in these past 3 1/2 years...ranging from making false statements, to falsifying legal documents, to using emergency resources (ambulance, EMT's, hospital) for 'fun', to perjury, to using public resources---coroner, courtroom, judge, jury, DA's office, LAFD, etc etc etc---under false pretenses. If the general backlash of the public finding out it was all just a 'game' isn't enough....he should be ready for some HEAVY backlash from taxpayers who fund these entities and, who for the most part, are trying to make ends meet in a struggling economy.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Yes but that would be assuming that there is no FBI involvement at all, which the release of 7 files contained 333 pages on 12/21/09 suggest strongly that there is. The 333 pages would have to be a massive coincidence if it were. It's been unanimous based on the information we have at hand that this is not just a coincidence, rather there is some sort of FBI involvement.
In due diligence with his elaborate, 2 decade long planning of this project, legality would have to be insured prior, through MJ's team of lawyers, and it is reasonable to assume that the FBI involvement that we all accept, also ensures legality to proceed with the execution.
FBI involvement must be an accepted truth due to the 333 pages. The sting theory is the one I am questioning.
As far as backlash resulting from fans feeling slighted, I suppose that's a given and has been all along. He fooled them on purpose with the "fake" lyrics and slap-dash songs on Michael album. He got them all hot n bothered with KJ selling books unauthorized by the Estate. He got them all angry about his body being not buried for 70 days, his children chatting away "unsupervised" online, his father selling perfume with his unauthorized image on it. All of these things which "taint" his legacy and infuriate his fans have been done-- NOT because he was in fear for his life against mysterious and enshrouded bad guys, but because he wrote it all into the script.
I don't think the general public is going to be angry that he fooled the world for an entertainment production. I think they will be amused and amazed. I also don't believe tax payer money paid for a single thing. I think everything was staged that could be, and everything that was not was covered by the Estate (police presence for the memorial, for example, was covered by the Estate. The city of LA was reimbursed very publicly back in 2009, this may well be an example of the track record from day one in regards to who paid for what).
On the contrary, IF the FBI allowed MJ to do all this on the public dime just because his life was threatened, THEN I would expect a public backlash. The general public is going to be angry that our broke government went along with a massively expensive media hoax just to catch someone who wants to rub out MJ. What do they care about MJ? Not much, and certainly not enough to agree that this amount of tax payer money (for a fake trial and all the paper work involved with the fake documents, ect) was worth protecting MJ. Surely there's other ways. If MJ's life is indeed in danger, what's wrong with the WPP (or equivalent) like any other normal person being threatened by nefarious entities? He could quietly "disappear" while the feds investigate this conspiracy, and proceed with their investigations like they do with every other FBI involved case. The general public is not likely to agree that MJ deserves special treatment, nor will they likely agree with their tax dollars being spent on MJ perusing his numerology requirements on the public dole is a noble use of the country's money.
Post by: Love4Michael on December 04, 2012, 11:25:04 AM
Post by: BeTheChange on December 04, 2012, 11:36:14 AM
Quote
As far as backlash resulting from fans feeling slighted, I suppose that's a given and has been all along. He fooled them on purpose with the "fake" lyrics and slap-dash songs on Michael album. He got them all hot n bothered with KJ selling books unauthorized by the Estate. He got them all angry about his body being not buried for 70 days, his children chatting away "unsupervised" online, his father selling perfume with his unauthorized image on it. All of these things which "taint" his legacy and infuriate his fans have been done-- NOT because he was in fear for his life against mysterious and enshrouded bad guys, but because he wrote it all into the script.
No laws were broken in any of ^^^, as opposed to the MANY laws I listed in my previous post...huge difference. And people were 'worried' about Mike having broken the law in using/having a DWD patient die in CA? LOL Page after page and post after post of the 'fact' that DWD IS illegal in CA (when it's not) and how Mike wouldn't break the law nor want the backlash associated with breaking the law....and now it's all 'ok' that he broke many other laws cause it's all 'just a game'. The contradictions in thinking, at times, are the real 'gymnastics' being done here.
If the starting point is that it's all 'just a game'....then the chasm is FAR too wide to even continue the convo.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 04, 2012, 11:42:05 AM
Quote from: Bec
Good questions, Bec and I had thought about them too.Quote from: SimpattyKRegarding all the past clues MJ dropped about "conspiracy" and "they" trying to harm him, I'd like to pose this thought to the group. It's the thought that has always given me trouble with this portion of the plot that TS_comments is selling.FBI cooperation, for example, doesn't have to be a sting operation. The FBI do lots of other things besides just sting operations.Yes of course, FBI operations are not uniquely/strictly focused on organizing STINGs.
But so far, throughout this hoax, we've seen many signs, clues and also direct hints made by TS and also by the family (LaToya), that at least in this death hoax, the FBI involvement is focused on a STING operation meant to reveal a conspiracy! the word conspiracy had been mentioned countless times by Michael and his family in numerous interviews!!
A conspiracy of that caliber (2 false allegation trials + money extortion + album sabotage - "Invincible" + death threats + media bashing) can only be stopped with the help/involvement of an authority such as FBI and the best "modus-operandi" in such cases is the STING!
TS dedicated 2 levels and several large posts on the subject of FBI and the STING!
I think we should NOT dismiss this as just a mere 'TS-prank/test".
he may have "played' with us here and there, throwing some small false leads to us, to check if we follow that blindly or we use our logic!
But I doubt he had invested so much time and energy on this them (FBI - sting operation) just for all to be a farse for us!
That's why the DWD theory seems to be the most plausible of all! because in such serious case, for such a sting, FBI doesn't "play with dolls/dummies and other weak materials like that! things HAD to be as REAL as possible!!! FBI never leaves place for mistakes! they don't want to compromise the work of so many people (most paid with public money) by working with "plastic-patients" !
PLUS: remember, we still don't have all the subjects targeted by this sting! Who knows what dark affairs FBI intends to uncover/prove/de-conspire through the use of the DWD practice!!
1. If MJ was in fear for his life and believed there was a conspiracy to destroy him, WHY would he not go directly to the authorities?
2. Why would he simply drop hints about it in media interviews for YEARS?
3. Why would he talk to a random Rabbi and allow these statements to be taped?
4. Why would he call people who aren't particularly close to him and leave messages on answering machines about it?
5. Why would he talk about it in situations where he was liable to be taped/recorded and his words to be then publicly broadcasted?
6. Why not go directly to the authorities with this fear? He's MJ, the most famous face in the world, and if he's being extorted, and truly in fear for his life, talking to a Rabbi isn't going to help keep him, or his children safe.
I think one important reason for Michael to go out publicly and drop all these conspiracy statements were also to help him gain validity later for the purpose of faking his death!
Therefore either during the hoax or better said after the BAM! he will be able to say:
"Look, people of the world, I had drawn so many alarm signals in the past about what was happening to me!! and YET NO real measure had been taken! I had been ignored and left to deal with those problems by myself! And that's how I decided to fake my death with the help of the FBI! It was the only way to make the hate stop and to bring out the conspiracy-snakes! And since I was being forced to recur to such an extreme method, I also took advantage to make it a FUN incredible experience for my FANS and this way to bring INNOVATION in the entertainment industry! at the same time the FBI having their own share of the whole thing: catching the big sharks from the pharmaceutical industry!"
^^ JMO JMO! JMO!! loll It's just my imagination of how MJ would explain the hoax after the BAM!!
I really can't think of another possible version!!
SO @Bec everything you have enlisted in your questions here above ^^ I take it as just one more justification (safety/insurance) of a man being in despair of having to cope by himself with all that injustice!
Either he did that by his own decision or he was advised to drop those clues...slowly but surely, by his lawyers or by the people from the FBI that collaborated with him.
At least that's how I see it!
Quote from: Bec
I have long said I believe there is a sting going on... but it is against the media and the fans.I understand why the death hoax/sting is 'against the media" for all the OBVIOUS reasons!
I don't understand why a STING "against the fans"? As if the fans had done something wrong!?
I would understand though a farse/hoax/entertainment side of this whole project, being made FOR US, the fans (hoaxers + deaders) just for the sake of making us experience the adventure of a lifetime , here including the INNOVATION in the entertainment industry!
^^ THAT I can understand and I have NO doubt that IT is INDEED one of the reasons (WHYs) of Michael's death hoax.
But I don't see it as something "against the fans".
Then, moving on... From what you said in your whole message, it seems that the death hoax has only 2 purposes: 1. farse/sting/hoax against the media and 2. against the fans.
Are those 2 ^^ really the only reasons of this death hoax? Entertainment and making the media pay for their crap?
I doubt it.
This is a much more elaborated plan than just that! He wouldn't have needed 10-20 years to only plan a hoax for the media and his fans.
Things go way deeper and there is ABSOLUTELY a danger-factor (conspiracy, death threat, sting) in it all!
PLUS the following:
1. There is also an environmental factor (Save the Planet, heal the World)
2. There is a humanitarian factor (fund raising, Children's hospital, though all the hoax-products that came out and that will continue to come out even after the BAM!)
3. There is also a cleansing/clearing aspect of Michael's image!
4. There is the aspect of corruption in the Justice System, Music and Pharmaceutic Industries!
5. There is also the FBI aspect who may have 2 major interests in getting involved in this hoax: 1. make light in Michael's case of conspiracy against him and 2. some hidden/top secret purpose that would serve only the government/FBI and that we may probably never find out!
And if I left out other important aspects, pls feel free to add to the list.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 11:52:02 AM
MJ lives for (aka feeds on) drama and controversy, yes?
Consider the snake story. MJ recognizes that the snake pauses before striking because the snake enjoys the moment of the mouse's terror before the kill. Now why does MJ recognize this? Perhaps because he IDENTIFIES with the snake.
WE prevent entrapment, we have always accepted that. But what kind of entrapment are we talking about? Criminal entrapment or social/artisitc entrapment? Previously, the idea was floated that if we could figure out how it was done, we would prevent a criminal from using the defense of entrapment before a court of law. Now it turns out that we were unable to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt and TS had to step in and finish the level himself. So how does that prevent entrapment as described in this paragraph? It doesn't, rather it STRENGTHS the entrapment defense. An insider had to hold our hands and give us the answers. We were unable, using the information in the media, pin point the truth of how it was all done, without the assistance of spoon feeding. If we were unable, after all this time and effort by the loyal and dutiful members here, to sift through the BS and settle on the truth, by ourselves, it's unlikely that anyone else could have done it either.
Yes, TS_comments had to finish it himself. In the past, if someone gets the right answer, he quotes that person and comments to that fact. This time he did not. If any one had gotten the "right answer" in all 142 pages of this thread, I believe he would have quoted them, perhaps even multiple quotes from multiple people harvested from multiple pages like he has done before, to PROVE that individual members came up with the right answers on their own. As it was, he did not, rather he himself wrote out the "answers" to end the level. That doesn't prevent entrapment. That indicates that the answers were not cut and dried, and the information could not stand on it's own, and the answers were NOT just to be found by anyone given the right time and inclination. That actually proves entrapment did occur/is occurring.
Post by: Andrea on December 04, 2012, 12:04:57 PM
Do we know if the medical people involved (paramedics, doctors) were even scheduled to work that day? These people don't normally work Mon-Fri 9-5, it's shift work. If they weren't supposed to work then their part in the hoax would not take resources away from those who really needed help that day. A last minute excuse could've covered why they were there that day - doc got her schedule mixed up, or whatever. Someone from Station 71 needs to be involved in the hoax in some way since that's where the ambulance came from, presumably. I realize there's a lot of "ifs" there but there has to be an explanation. If the dead body was used to fool these people then none of those excuses would be needed but getting these people to try and revive a dead person for two hours DOES take resources away from those who need it. These people needed to be in place for the hoax and fake 911 call supports that notion, among the other evidences we have of their involvement.
I think MJ is footing the bill as well. Using tax dollars would not be right and like bec said, the Estate made sure that everyone knew they were paying back the city for the Memorial. I'm sure the hoax has paid for itself with all the renewed interest in everything MJ these last 3+ years. I'm sure an argument could even be made that his "death" helped boost the economy somehow.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 12:06:37 PM
Quote from: BecI have long said I believe there is a sting going on... but it is against the media and the fans.I understand why the death hoax/sting is 'against the media" for all the OBVIOUS reasons!
I don't understand why a STING "against the fans"? As if the fans had done something wrong!?
Well, for those who want to refer to TS_comment's own words as justification, he has more then once agreed/ flat out admitted that there is a sting on the fans, as well as the media.
I think the fan sting is to shake them up. He warned them for years not to believe the media, not believe everything they hear. To trust and have faith in him, to, whatever happens... not let go of his hand.
YET THEY DID. They collectively accept that he was a pathetic, washed up, weak, easily controlled drug addict who acted irresponsibly with his 3 young children. They ignored their lessons, they forsake all of his warnings, they refused to acknowledge his clues. They should have known better, he prepped them for this for 20 years, more, but instead they were successfully, and so easily seduced by the dark side-- the media.
All those lyrics regarding him being left by his love-object for another man? I think that is describing this situation. They left him, the REAL MJ, for the MJ being portrayed in the press, who CLEARLY isn't the MJ you and I know and love. They must be thinking of someone else. They must be grieving for another man. They left him, the prankster, and went off and worshiped the golden cow, a false prophet, the weak drug addicted dead MJ being paraded throughout the news.
That's the sting. In my opinion, based on the info to date. My mind remains open, as information can be dropped at any time, so I keep watchin' as instructed.
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 04, 2012, 12:17:37 PM
The general public largely sees the MJ fan community as obsessive fanatics. IF it turns out that MJ punked them hard core, and they end up angry about it, I bet the general public will laugh their asses off.
MJ lives for (aka feeds on) drama and controversy, yes?
Consider the snake story. MJ recognizes that the snake pauses before striking because the snake enjoys the moment of the mouse's terror before the kill. Now why does MJ recognize this? Perhaps because he IDENTIFIES with the snake.
WE prevent entrapment, we have always accepted that. But what kind of entrapment are we talking about? Criminal entrapment or social/artisitc entrapment? Previously, the idea was floated that if we could figure out how it was done, we would prevent a criminal from using the defense of entrapment before a court of law. Now it turns out that we were unable to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt and TS had to step in and finish the level himself. So how does that prevent entrapment as described in this paragraph? It doesn't, rather it STRENGTHS the entrapment defense. An insider had to hold our hands and give us the answers. We were unable, using the information in the media, pin point the truth of how it was all done, without the assistance of spoon feeding. If we were unable, after all this time and effort by the loyal and dutiful members here, to sift through the BS and settle on the truth, by ourselves, it's unlikely that anyone else could have done it either.
Yes, TS_comments had to finish it himself. In the past, if someone gets the right answer, he quotes that person and comments to that fact. This time he did not. If any one had gotten the "right answer" in all 142 pages of this thread, I believe he would have quoted them, perhaps even multiple quotes from multiple people harvested from multiple pages like he has done before, to PROVE that individual members came up with the right answers on their own. As it was, he did not, rather he himself wrote out the "answers" to end the level. That doesn't prevent entrapment. That indicates that the answers were not cut and dried, and the information could not stand on it's own, and the answers were NOT just to be found by anyone given the right time and inclination. That actually proves entrapment did occur/is occurring.
Bec, TS_comments is a username...the guy is a user, why can't we take it this way, TS is not an insider, he doesn't know the complete story himself, he's just a person discussing stuff with us.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 04, 2012, 12:20:17 PM
But in continuation of those 2 lines you quoted from my message, I had also posted this:
which is in great lines what you said, but with that final different line... I just simply don't see it as "against" the fans, rather for the fans!
Quote from: Simpattyk
I would understand though a farse/hoax/entertainment side of this whole project, being made FOR US, the fans (hoaxers + deaders) just for the sake of making us experience the adventure of a lifetime , here including the INNOVATION in the entertainment industry!
^^ THAT I can understand and I have NO doubt that IT is INDEED one of the reasons (WHYs) of Michael's death hoax.
But I don't see it as something "against the fans".
As far as backlash resulting from fans feeling slighted, I suppose that's a given and has been all along. He fooled them on purpose with the "fake" lyrics and slap-dash songs on Michael album. He got them all hot n bothered with KJ selling books unauthorized by the Estate. He got them all angry about his body being not buried for 70 days, his children chatting away "unsupervised" online, his father selling perfume with his unauthorized image on it. All of these things which "taint" his legacy and infuriate his fans have been done-- NOT because he was in fear for his life against mysterious and enshrouded bad guys, but because he wrote it all into the script.Bec, what you perfectly describe here as part of MJ's well planned script is indeed a STING! But NOT on the fans, BUT on those would try to take advantage / profit from the sales of all that you mentioned here above^^
LaToya told us: It's the money trail that we need to follow!! in order to find out WHO /WHAT exactly is the target of this STING!
And the money surely do NOT go/lead to the fans!
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 04, 2012, 12:20:35 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on December 04, 2012, 12:28:08 PM
An insider had to hold our hands and give us the answers. We were unable, using the information in the media, pin point the truth of how it was all done, without the assistance of spoon feeding. If we were unable, after all this time and effort by the loyal and dutiful members here, to sift through the BS and settle on the truth, by ourselves, it's unlikely that anyone else could have done it either.
We're back to the cop-out of 'TS gave us all the answers'? Once again, the insinuation is flat-out false, at best...bordering on offensive, at worst. Here's just ONE example, of many, of how people pieced things together BEFORE 'TS gave us all the answers'...written by Souza a year and a half ago:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=322442;topic=18688.75 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=322442;topic=18688.75)Quote from: GINAFELICIAQuote from: DatrootThe body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them. I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.
A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.
If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.
Yes he could. In the neighbour state Oregon, plus in Washington and Montana, assisted suicide is legal. There are some rules of course, but you can choose your own date of death. After going through the 'approval procedure', a doctor can prescribe the lethal medications to the terminally ill patient and then the patient has to administer it himself. I am just thinking about some articles like "Michael Jackson 6 months to live" (in order to get approval for assisted suicide, you must have a life expectation of 6 months or less), "MJ killed himself" "MJ looked like sick old frail man", add to that the painkiller addictions, which many terminally ill patients have and it's starting to look like assisted suicide. I sent an email to determine if it's possible for someone from one of those states to self-administer the drugs in a state where it's not (yet) legal. If not, it is possible that they flew the body in on the morning of June 25th, right after the person was pronounced dead by a doctor in Oregon/Washington/Montana. We still have that close-down at LAX that morning. Was it really someone leaving, or (also) someone arriving? It would also explain why the body was already cold and stiff, even though the room temp was that high. The person would have been dead for hours, and that is what the EMT's thought.
It would also mean that the EMT's in the back of the ambulance, might not even be in the know. They would certainly think something is going on, but that doesn't mean they really KNOW. We think it's all fishy, and we don't know either. They might have been told that there is a shadow investigation going on by the FBI considering MJ's death and that the ambulance picture was faked for a certain reason. That is just a thought, but point is that if their supervisor tells them to shut up because the FBI is involved, they will. I do think the driver is in the know, because he backed out that slow. There is a difference between knowing something is wrong, and really KNOW about the hoax. I think only those absolutely necessary are truly knowing what's going on, because if this is a sting, there is also something like the safety of people and the operation. Who doesn't know, can't talk.
Same goes for people in the hospital. I believe one or two people at the hospital really KNOW, the ones in the room when they brought in the body might only suspect. We haven't heard from anyone at the hospital, which shows me that they too were asked not to talk about it. And the fire alarm at the hospital made sure that only a select few would be able to see the body (damage control).
An autopsy is not required with assisted suicide, so I don't think there even was an autopsy. The cause of death on the DC will be stated as natural, with mention of the decease. No autopsy is needed. The coroner's office knows, they have to. If he didn't slice up MJ, he knows it's a hoax, so in any case the coroner is aware of the hoax. An e-mail I received today from the coroner's office confirms that for me. It was a reply to a question I sent them in October 2009, which is extremely strange. It came from the chief of public services and I am pretty sure she receives many emails, questions and requests. An email from October 2009 would definitely be buried by now, so this tells me she saved it somewhere. Why answer now after 18 months? (still mailing, I will post it if something interesting comes up).
So a real body would definitely bring the number of people in on it down.
As for a living person (MJ or double) or no one at all being in the ambulance, that would increase the people in on it. You can't perform CPR on a person that is perfectly fine or non-exsisting, which means it was all a show and anyone in the room at Carolwood, the EMT's and everyone present in the hospital are in the know. Also, MJ or the double should leave the hospital at a certain moment, and with all the fans and paparazzi present there, that would be way too risky. I don't believe that they would take such a risk.
A real body might not be 'entertaining', but if this is a sting operation, it simply might have been necessary.
On a sidenote: I think Alberto Alvarez is an FBI agent and maybe the other bodyguards as well.
So in a nutshell, here is what I think might have occured that day:
Early morning: Terminally ill patient ends his life by self-administering lethal medications. He is pronounced dead by a doctor, they made sure everything was done according to the rules, and they put him on a plane to LAX to transport him later on to Carolwood Drive. There he is placed on the bed in the heated room, the bottles of propofol, the IV and everything else was planted and Murray and Alvarez waited until 12:21 to call '911'. I think it was a fake call to make sure the right ambulance with the informed driver would be sent. Ambulance 71 goes to the mansion, EMT's see dead person, scratch themselves behind their ears but have no other choice then to try and resuscitate the body, since Murray is the higher authority. They bring the body to UCLA, where Cooper is the higher authority and can make sure death won't be called until the planned time of 2:26 pm. The body stayed at the UCLA morgue and nothing was transported to the coroner, which is why there was no need for a real body bag. It does mean the helicopter crew is in the know, plus the people present at that time at the coroner's office. The one sitting up in the helicopter could have been anyone. I think the person was buried on July 6th, since we have a video of the Jacksons at a burial at FL on that day. INFORMED about the hoax/sting on that day: Murray, bodyguards (FBI agents?), ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present), Chief of LAFD Barry (resigned on May 28th, 2009 and left office on August 1, 2009 after only 2 years: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-chief-barry-resigns,0,4528069.story)<!-- m -->) and Chief of LAPD Bratton (who resigned in August 2009, leaving in October, with 3 years left of his 5-year term: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bratton-resigns,0,6544648.story)<!-- m -->) Ben Evenstad and his colleague, Dr. Cooper, the helicopter crew and the Coroner's office. So except from the family those are mostly government agencies and only a few civilians.
This means less people in the know. Some might suspect things, but I don't think you can avoid that, but you can make sure the number of people informed about the hoax is as low as possible. Of all the options (MJ, double, dummy, real corpse or nothing) a real corpse will have the less people involved, because I really don't think professional medical experts would be fooled with a dummy and IF they could be fooled with a dummy, they would have made sure the dummy looked like MJ, but it didn't.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: TuTcurse on December 04, 2012, 12:31:17 PM
Quote from: BecI have long said I believe there is a sting going on... but it is against the media and the fans.I understand why the death hoax/sting is 'against the media" for all the OBVIOUS reasons!
I don't understand why a STING "against the fans"? As if the fans had done something wrong!?
Well, for those who want to refer to TS_comment's own words as justification, he has more then once agreed/ flat out admitted that there is a sting on the fans, as well as the media.
I think the fan sting is to shake them up. He warned them for years not to believe the media, not believe everything they hear. To trust and have faith in him, to, whatever happens... not let go of his hand.
YET THEY DID. They collectively accept that he was a pathetic, washed up, weak, easily controlled drug addict who acted irresponsibly with his 3 young children. They ignored their lessons, they forsake all of his warnings, they refused to acknowledge his clues. They should have known better, he prepped them for this for 20 years, more, but instead they were successfully, and so easily seduced by the dark side-- the media.
All those lyrics regarding him being left by his love-object for another man? I think that is describing this situation. They left him, the REAL MJ, for the MJ being portrayed in the press, who CLEARLY isn't the MJ you and I know and love. They must be thinking of someone else. They must be grieving for another man. They left him, the prankster, and went off and worshiped the golden cow, a false prophet, the weak drug addicted dead MJ being paraded throughout the news.
That's the sting. In my opinion, based on the info to date. My mind remains open, as information can be dropped at any time, so I keep watchin' as instructed.
THIS!!!!!!!! I thought I was the only one who felt this way lol.
Every fan should have straight up love and respect for Michael Jackson. Unless Michael Jackson SAYS something HIMSELF, its NO ONES business and there is no reason to believe it.
Post by: Love4Michael on December 04, 2012, 12:49:42 PM
The general public largely sees the MJ fan community as obsessive fanatics. IF it turns out that MJ punked them hard core, and they end up angry about it, I bet the general public will laugh their asses off.
MJ lives for (aka feeds on) drama and controversy, yes?
Consider the snake story. MJ recognizes that the snake pauses before striking because the snake enjoys the moment of the mouse's terror before the kill. Now why does MJ recognize this? Perhaps because he IDENTIFIES with the snake.
WE prevent entrapment, we have always accepted that. But what kind of entrapment are we talking about? Criminal entrapment or social/artisitc entrapment? Previously, the idea was floated that if we could figure out how it was done, we would prevent a criminal from using the defense of entrapment before a court of law. Now it turns out that we were unable to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt and TS had to step in and finish the level himself. So how does that prevent entrapment as described in this paragraph? It doesn't, rather it STRENGTHS the entrapment defense. An insider had to hold our hands and give us the answers. We were unable, using the information in the media, pin point the truth of how it was all done, without the assistance of spoon feeding. If we were unable, after all this time and effort by the loyal and dutiful members here, to sift through the BS and settle on the truth, by ourselves, it's unlikely that anyone else could have done it either.
Yes, TS_comments had to finish it himself. In the past, if someone gets the right answer, he quotes that person and comments to that fact. This time he did not. If any one had gotten the "right answer" in all 142 pages of this thread, I believe he would have quoted them, perhaps even multiple quotes from multiple people harvested from multiple pages like he has done before, to PROVE that individual members came up with the right answers on their own. As it was, he did not, rather he himself wrote out the "answers" to end the level. That doesn't prevent entrapment. That indicates that the answers were not cut and dried, and the information could not stand on it's own, and the answers were NOT just to be found by anyone given the right time and inclination. That actually proves entrapment did occur/is occurring.
Or conversely...TS_comments had to finish the level himself because people here were quite hesitant or unwilling to fully embrace the DWD/corpse theory possibility. How many statements have been posted listing doubt of that theory based largely on how they believe Michael would view or feel about that scenario? They aren't really thinking for themselves...they are trying to think FOR Michael (at least the Michael they think they know.) I think we were warned quite a while back that we needed to be able to think "outside the box". Perhaps this was farther "outside" than some were willing to go. I have no doubt that Michael believes in magic and miracles but I also think he's wise to the certain inevitably that we all face one day. Human bodies are not capable of sustaining life indefinitely...he's had to accept that fact when losing people he cared about over the years (as we all have). Would he rejoice in it...not a chance...but would he accept it...I think maybe so. But what the hell do I know...I'm just trying to analyze like everyone else.
I also still firmly believe that it isn't necessary for the general population or even our group to discover actual details of the illusion created on 6/25 to argue against entrapment for what it's worth. Merely recognizing that it WAS an illusion served that purpose. The $64,000.00 question still remains...entrapment from what??? IF there is a serious sting involved...Who is THEY, what are THEY doing and to whom are THEY doing it? Why was the "death" illusion needed in the first place? The problem is that discussing any details in that regard must not be safe here or we'd have been given more information/confirmation. So either my thinking is way off target or there are truly nefarious elements in all of this. :icon_e_confused:
PS Wow 7 more replies while writing this...guess I have more reading to do...lol.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 12:56:39 PM
@bec: yes i know that the fans were also a subject of receiving a "lesson" of not blindly believing in everything they hear/read, just like the general public.
But in continuation of those 2 lines you quoted from my message, I had also posted this:
which is in great lines what you said, but with that final different line... I just simply don't see it as "against" the fans, rather for the fans!Quote from: SimpattykI would understand though a farse/hoax/entertainment side of this whole project, being made FOR US, the fans (hoaxers + deaders) just for the sake of making us experience the adventure of a lifetime , here including the INNOVATION in the entertainment industry!
^^ THAT I can understand and I have NO doubt that IT is INDEED one of the reasons (WHYs) of Michael's death hoax.
But I don't see it as something "against the fans".As far as backlash resulting from fans feeling slighted, I suppose that's a given and has been all along. He fooled them on purpose with the "fake" lyrics and slap-dash songs on Michael album. He got them all hot n bothered with KJ selling books unauthorized by the Estate. He got them all angry about his body being not buried for 70 days, his children chatting away "unsupervised" online, his father selling perfume with his unauthorized image on it. All of these things which "taint" his legacy and infuriate his fans have been done-- NOT because he was in fear for his life against mysterious and enshrouded bad guys, but because he wrote it all into the script.Bec, what you perfectly describe here as part of MJ's well planned script is indeed a STING! But NOT on the fans, BUT on those would try to take advantage / profit from the sales of all that you mentioned here above^^
LaToya told us: It's the money trail that we need to follow!! in order to find out WHO /WHAT exactly is the target of this STING!
And the money surely do NOT go/lead to the fans!
Agreed. But the money trail does indeed lead to MJ and I think that's what she meant.
Post by: ellyd on December 04, 2012, 12:58:59 PM
Yes but that would be assuming that there is no FBI involvement at all, which the release of 7 files contained 333 pages on 12/21/09 suggest strongly that there is. The 333 pages would have to be a massive coincidence if it were. It's been unanimous based on the information we have at hand that this is not just a coincidence, rather there is some sort of FBI involvement.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/faqs (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/faqs)
Brian Oxman was said to have asked for the documents to be released, right?
Quote
The Freedom of Information Act allows any person—except fugitives, federal agencies, and foreign intelligence agencies—to request information about organizations, businesses, investigations, historical events, incidents, groups, or deceased persons.http://www.fbi.gov/foia/requesting-fbi-records (http://www.fbi.gov/foia/requesting-fbi-records)
Files may be requested for deceased persons only.
If MJ was under surveillance - which presumably did not end with his verdict - the FBI knows that MJ is NOT deceased.
So Brian Oxman requested files the FBI could legally not release - except if this was part of and covered by a strategy.
Which means
-either the 333 pages are baloney as to representing MJ's true files or
- they are giving only an very selected extract of the complete files that was not harmful in terms of blowing the sting.
I would even go so far to consider that the published part of MJ's files was meant to calm down those worrying about any negative findings and to make them believe nothing disturbing was detected concerning their names.
7 files were published on FBI sites:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/december/jackson_122209 (http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/december/jackson_122209)
which are called "The Vault":
http://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson (http://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson)
The files start with copies from tabloid articles in Britain.
Page 7 in file 252 contains a distinct, very familiar handwriting remarking "[...]Jan, Pls tell me they got the wrong unit on p2".
http://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson/Michael%20Jackson%20252%20File%20Part%201%20of%201/view (http://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson/Michael%20Jackson%20252%20File%20Part%201%20of%201/view)
(I don't believe that page 7 in file 252=9 is a coincidence.)
All file lead numbers add up to either 5, 8 or 9.
All of the above leads me to reflecting on whether MJ was an FBI agent himself or else the a.m. details in this combination would be a mere impossible coincidence.
If MJ is an FBI insider, the story developing as of June 25, 2009 for sure was not executed without any FBI involvement.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 01:05:22 PM
An insider had to hold our hands and give us the answers. We were unable, using the information in the media, pin point the truth of how it was all done, without the assistance of spoon feeding. If we were unable, after all this time and effort by the loyal and dutiful members here, to sift through the BS and settle on the truth, by ourselves, it's unlikely that anyone else could have done it either.
We're back to the cop-out of 'TS gave us all the answers'? Once again, the insinuation is flat-out false, at best...bordering on offensive, at worst. Here's just ONE example, of many, of how people pieced things together BEFORE 'TS gave us all the answers'...written by Souza a year and a half ago:http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=322442;topic=18688.75 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=322442;topic=18688.75)Quote from: GINAFELICIAQuote from: DatrootThe body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them. I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.
A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.
If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.
Yes he could. In the neighbour state Oregon, plus in Washington and Montana, assisted suicide is legal. There are some rules of course, but you can choose your own date of death. After going through the 'approval procedure', a doctor can prescribe the lethal medications to the terminally ill patient and then the patient has to administer it himself. I am just thinking about some articles like "Michael Jackson 6 months to live" (in order to get approval for assisted suicide, you must have a life expectation of 6 months or less), "MJ killed himself" "MJ looked like sick old frail man", add to that the painkiller addictions, which many terminally ill patients have and it's starting to look like assisted suicide. I sent an email to determine if it's possible for someone from one of those states to self-administer the drugs in a state where it's not (yet) legal. If not, it is possible that they flew the body in on the morning of June 25th, right after the person was pronounced dead by a doctor in Oregon/Washington/Montana. We still have that close-down at LAX that morning. Was it really someone leaving, or (also) someone arriving? It would also explain why the body was already cold and stiff, even though the room temp was that high. The person would have been dead for hours, and that is what the EMT's thought.
It would also mean that the EMT's in the back of the ambulance, might not even be in the know. They would certainly think something is going on, but that doesn't mean they really KNOW. We think it's all fishy, and we don't know either. They might have been told that there is a shadow investigation going on by the FBI considering MJ's death and that the ambulance picture was faked for a certain reason. That is just a thought, but point is that if their supervisor tells them to shut up because the FBI is involved, they will. I do think the driver is in the know, because he backed out that slow. There is a difference between knowing something is wrong, and really KNOW about the hoax. I think only those absolutely necessary are truly knowing what's going on, because if this is a sting, there is also something like the safety of people and the operation. Who doesn't know, can't talk.
Same goes for people in the hospital. I believe one or two people at the hospital really KNOW, the ones in the room when they brought in the body might only suspect. We haven't heard from anyone at the hospital, which shows me that they too were asked not to talk about it. And the fire alarm at the hospital made sure that only a select few would be able to see the body (damage control).
An autopsy is not required with assisted suicide, so I don't think there even was an autopsy. The cause of death on the DC will be stated as natural, with mention of the decease. No autopsy is needed. The coroner's office knows, they have to. If he didn't slice up MJ, he knows it's a hoax, so in any case the coroner is aware of the hoax. An e-mail I received today from the coroner's office confirms that for me. It was a reply to a question I sent them in October 2009, which is extremely strange. It came from the chief of public services and I am pretty sure she receives many emails, questions and requests. An email from October 2009 would definitely be buried by now, so this tells me she saved it somewhere. Why answer now after 18 months? (still mailing, I will post it if something interesting comes up).
So a real body would definitely bring the number of people in on it down.
As for a living person (MJ or double) or no one at all being in the ambulance, that would increase the people in on it. You can't perform CPR on a person that is perfectly fine or non-exsisting, which means it was all a show and anyone in the room at Carolwood, the EMT's and everyone present in the hospital are in the know. Also, MJ or the double should leave the hospital at a certain moment, and with all the fans and paparazzi present there, that would be way too risky. I don't believe that they would take such a risk.
A real body might not be 'entertaining', but if this is a sting operation, it simply might have been necessary.
On a sidenote: I think Alberto Alvarez is an FBI agent and maybe the other bodyguards as well.
So in a nutshell, here is what I think might have occured that day:
Early morning: Terminally ill patient ends his life by self-administering lethal medications. He is pronounced dead by a doctor, they made sure everything was done according to the rules, and they put him on a plane to LAX to transport him later on to Carolwood Drive. There he is placed on the bed in the heated room, the bottles of propofol, the IV and everything else was planted and Murray and Alvarez waited until 12:21 to call '911'. I think it was a fake call to make sure the right ambulance with the informed driver would be sent. Ambulance 71 goes to the mansion, EMT's see dead person, scratch themselves behind their ears but have no other choice then to try and resuscitate the body, since Murray is the higher authority. They bring the body to UCLA, where Cooper is the higher authority and can make sure death won't be called until the planned time of 2:26 pm. The body stayed at the UCLA morgue and nothing was transported to the coroner, which is why there was no need for a real body bag. It does mean the helicopter crew is in the know, plus the people present at that time at the coroner's office. The one sitting up in the helicopter could have been anyone. I think the person was buried on July 6th, since we have a video of the Jacksons at a burial at FL on that day. INFORMED about the hoax/sting on that day: Murray, bodyguards (FBI agents?), ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present), Chief of LAFD Barry (resigned on May 28th, 2009 and left office on August 1, 2009 after only 2 years: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-chief-barry-resigns,0,4528069.story)<!-- m -->) and Chief of LAPD Bratton (who resigned in August 2009, leaving in October, with 3 years left of his 5-year term: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bratton-resigns,0,6544648.story)<!-- m -->) Ben Evenstad and his colleague, Dr. Cooper, the helicopter crew and the Coroner's office. So except from the family those are mostly government agencies and only a few civilians.
This means less people in the know. Some might suspect things, but I don't think you can avoid that, but you can make sure the number of people informed about the hoax is as low as possible. Of all the options (MJ, double, dummy, real corpse or nothing) a real corpse will have the less people involved, because I really don't think professional medical experts would be fooled with a dummy and IF they could be fooled with a dummy, they would have made sure the dummy looked like MJ, but it didn't.
With L.O.V.E. always.
I am sorry you are getting very angry at me. It is not my intention to incite anger or be offensive. I am not the one who is ignoring these posts. TS_comments is the one who disregarded them all and posted his own version. TS_comments has many times in the past quoted someone or redirected to someone's post who got the right answer. Why did he not do that this time if the answers had all been posted already? Why did he not do that if it was important that we independently get the right answers? Why did he not end Level 7 last year if Souza had already posted all the right answers?
Post by: paula-c on December 04, 2012, 01:18:01 PM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxdeath.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=18754&p=599053&hilit=FBI#p599053
Quote
First of all sorry for this long post, but maybe you guys will feel like reading it, I will write it anyway:) This has always been a very irritating subject to me, as much as I try to be on Michael's side and to be proven wrong in my arguments, I can't ignore the logic side of this issue for some very clear realistic reasons seen from a citizen's point of view. I'd gladly fake my death tomorrow to escape this slavery system we all live in, but...
I'll never understand how faking your death does not generate a crime if not more. Wouldn't it be easy for all of us living like this then? Outside of a political , economical, social system where duties consisting of taxes & obeying laws(absurd sometimes) are far more numerous than the rights offered by this infected system?
The majority on forums and news sticks around the "standard" answer: "if you are trying to fraudulently obtain a financial benefit or avoid a financial obligation by faking your death, it would likely constitute a crime" or "I can't find in the book where does it say it's a crime". But this is such a simplistic and unprofesional approach. Till we get there, what do we do with that death certificate for instance? If you fake your death , you do it with the help of others, family and/or institutions in charge. Someone must lie for sure, lie in front of authorities or bribing the authorities. How is this not a crime and a major one I must add. That death certificate is not just out of the blue,it is written upon a fabricated evidence either by faker himself, by his family friends, false witnesses or without any of them, directly bribing those in charge with releasing the certificate (doctors , coroner, police, Court in some cases).
But let's simply ignore the death certificate (otherwise essential for a faked death) and let's only apply the principle which says if I don't avoid a financial obligation then it's ok. This is a false principle. When you are alive, you are held to financial and social obligations not matter what. If I am late with changing my ID while moving I pay a fine, If I'm late with paying some social taxes which i must pay because i am alive even if I never use anyway, I am being penalized big money, all this just because I exist, just because I LIVE and I am not registered dead yet.
So the idea that if I'm fake dead and I don't earn money then I don't have obligations is very deceving, very untrue and has no applying practice when it comes to real wordl. I hate this, but as alive citizens, no matter what we do, not matter how much we earn, whether we like it or not, we held to obligations applying to all people living in a society. Even when not earning a penny you must still record your paper where you say, "this year I haven't earned a penny". Otherwise you avoid the law and pay a consequence, bigger or minor, doesn't even matter, it's the principle of breaking a law I'm talking about. So despite of everything, faking your death is a crime by the way you get a false certificate and secondly generates other crimes less or more important concerning your citizen duties, duties you've managed to trick exactly because of this fake status.
Let alone if i sign a contract in which I am conditioned to pay an amount of money if I don't honor that contract; I choose to play dead instead, avoid that big penalty and escape that duties I've signed for, all at the same time. Smart, but if this isn't a fraud then what is. If such thing would be allowed, what legal power would contracts have anyway. What if the person I engage in a contract would be able to fake their death anytime they decide to escape the agreements while avoiding the clauses from our contract? Of course, this can't be ever legal and the reasons would be clear. Business deals would never exist if such thing possible and capitalism never invented. I may go too far now but I want to show the frauds a fake death generates even if the action itself is not enacted as crime.
Nowadays, under this slavery system, pretending to be dead would be a much easier living at one point, but for this you must have enough money to run your way out in a non-legal way. I know we hate this, because here we have Michael involved, but our love for him shouldn't make us less objective. This is not okay, which is why you or I can't and never will be able to do it without fearing consequence, which is why you and I never thought of it and didn't even cross our minds as a solution, not to us, not to many.
In my opinion a fake death can't generate a crime only when it's done by mistake, in exmple the family who wrongly identified a body or the police wrongly conducting a case. In situations where you deceive authorities on purpose with the intention of being registered as dead (and not as a prank or anything that doesn't involve a death certificate) it is obviously includes an illegal way. Otherwise we would be all able to just fake or deaths and deny the system we live in, no more taxes, no more state budgets, no more organized societies. But this is something the empowered people from Earth would never allow, on the contrary they don't know how to incept us more cips to locate and identify us.
"I am unaware of any federal statute that would apply to an individual who fakes their own death," FBI spokesman Bill Carter told Life's Little Mysteries. Sure, there isn't a special section in criminal law dedicated to fake death, like there isn't a special section for other billions of situations happening outthere in the real world, but the law is a living energy in a specific context, using deductions, similarities, principals, logic and rationality and the methods one uses or the consequence one generates out of an action can be enough for a crime, that action doesn't have to be a crime by itself.
This being said, I don't even want to go further and analyse Michael Jackson's faked death in its particular aspects such as the big contract he was legally bound to at the moment of his "death", the Coroner's fabricated authopsy, or the crime sentence on behalf of the imprisoned doctor upon his patient's "death". I guess the seriousness of this particular case is so obvious that it doesn't even require discussion.
There are some of you who see FBI involved so all these aspects don't matter to you from the start for this reason, but to me personally FBI helping MJ' death has always been a theory without any real mundane arguments and time helped me confirming my opinion. Besides, as much as MJ means to us, FBI has no competence of acting as personal bodyguard or favors for anyone unless it's professional. And so far I don't see the positive connection between this institution and Michael's persona. I guess if there were any, Michael's damaging trials would have never taken place.
I don't know how may of you had the patience to read my long post but I'm glad if you did, because I would really like to know your opinion if you have time or interest in this topic.
Now I have my doubts with the theory of the corpse and all the legal aspect, and in truth do not believe in movies or in sting for fanatics.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 04, 2012, 01:20:21 PM
As for your comments about TS not quoting people, there have been many updates, levels and redirects where he didn't...so I'm not sure why that would have any relevance now. Also, he DID specifically mention a post by Souza where she has mentioned the DWD theory before he ever did. I'm not 100% sure that the post I quoted from Souza is the one he meant...but it is a great example of why the insinuation is false. We all know how important 'timing' has been throughout all this...so to your second point, my guess would be that he didn't end the level a year ago because the timing wasn't right, for whatever reason.
Hope that clears up my feelings on the issue.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 01:26:21 PM
Post by: ellyd on December 04, 2012, 01:54:54 PM
Why did he not end Level 7 last year if Souza had already posted all the right answers?
Might be because Souza's findings and theory were brilliant but
a) were not 100% accurate
b) were not believed by many
c) early acknowledgement of principessa would demotivate others
d) talking 1 on 1 only was not the plan
e) would cause an end to main hoax course too early
f) would interrupt the process of keeping contact with many
g) would interfere with termination of other important project areas (business, contracts, law suits, finances, family projects etc.)
g) were simply not meeting his (time) schedule
h) ...
Post by: Sarahli on December 04, 2012, 01:58:04 PM
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams
Post by: Andrea on December 04, 2012, 02:08:43 PM
Concerning the FBI's involvment, maybe it's worth to mention again that we also had this clear hint: a story titled "Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets- A Different Kind of Scam" published on the FBI's website exactly one year after MJ's hoax funeral of September 3rd 2009:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams
Thanks for bringing that up again. This article specifies fake funerals, death certificates, paid actors and no bodies in the caskets, all for financial gain (fraud). When TS mentioned this article, it was in his post where he said "nobody" (no body) 9 times, instead of using a variation like no one, here and there. It does make me wonder if there was an intentional subtle hint there.
Post by: Sarahli on December 04, 2012, 02:11:57 PM
Concerning the FBI's involvment, maybe it's worth to mention again that we also had this clear hint: a story titled "Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets- A Different Kind of Scam" published on the FBI's website exactly one year after MJ's hoax funeral of September 3rd 2009:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams
Thanks for bringing that up again. This article specifies fake funerals, death certificates, paid actors and no bodies in the caskets, all for financial gain (fraud). When TS mentioned this article, it was in his post where he said "nobody" (no body) 9 times, instead of using a variation like no one, here and there. It does make me wonder if there was an intentional subtle hint there.
Maybe it was TS' way to play the DA? :suspect: :icon_lol:
Post by: Andrea on December 04, 2012, 02:14:42 PM
Concerning the FBI's involvment, maybe it's worth to mention again that we also had this clear hint: a story titled "Fake Funerals, Empty Caskets- A Different Kind of Scam" published on the FBI's website exactly one year after MJ's hoax funeral of September 3rd 2009:
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2010/september/funeral-scams/financial-fraud-and-funeral-scams
Thanks for bringing that up again. This article specifies fake funerals, death certificates, paid actors and no bodies in the caskets, all for financial gain (fraud). When TS mentioned this article, it was in his post where he said "nobody" (no body) 9 times, instead of using a variation like no one, here and there. It does make me wonder if there was an intentional subtle hint there.
Maybe it was TS' way to play the DA? :suspect: :icon_lol:
Or an actual bonafide coincidence? :icon_lol:
Oh TS, you so sneaky!
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 04, 2012, 02:37:38 PM
This was very ...enlightening ;). Thank you BTC.http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=322442;topic=18688.75 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=322442;topic=18688.75)Quote from: GINAFELICIAQuote from: DatrootThe body may have been a John Doe - they must have loads of John Does at the Coroner's - people who have no identity or family to mourn them. I may be way off track but it's a plausible solution for the body.
A John Doe is the most probable..... they don't have family, they are available all the time (sorry if i sound morbid) and it was easy for FBI to get it.
If there was a body, I don't think it was of a doner because in that case that doner couldn't just die on the 25th of June to make the numbers match.
Yes he could. In the neighbour state Oregon, plus in Washington and Montana, assisted suicide is legal. There are some rules of course, but you can choose your own date of death. After going through the 'approval procedure', a doctor can prescribe the lethal medications to the terminally ill patient and then the patient has to administer it himself. I am just thinking about some articles like "Michael Jackson 6 months to live" (in order to get approval for assisted suicide, you must have a life expectation of 6 months or less), "MJ killed himself" "MJ looked like sick old frail man", add to that the painkiller addictions, which many terminally ill patients have and it's starting to look like assisted suicide. I sent an email to determine if it's possible for someone from one of those states to self-administer the drugs in a state where it's not (yet) legal. If not, it is possible that they flew the body in on the morning of June 25th, right after the person was pronounced dead by a doctor in Oregon/Washington/Montana. We still have that close-down at LAX that morning. Was it really someone leaving, or (also) someone arriving? It would also explain why the body was already cold and stiff, even though the room temp was that high. The person would have been dead for hours, and that is what the EMT's thought.
It would also mean that the EMT's in the back of the ambulance, might not even be in the know. They would certainly think something is going on, but that doesn't mean they really KNOW. We think it's all fishy, and we don't know either. They might have been told that there is a shadow investigation going on by the FBI considering MJ's death and that the ambulance picture was faked for a certain reason. That is just a thought, but point is that if their supervisor tells them to shut up because the FBI is involved, they will. I do think the driver is in the know, because he backed out that slow. There is a difference between knowing something is wrong, and really KNOW about the hoax. I think only those absolutely necessary are truly knowing what's going on, because if this is a sting, there is also something like the safety of people and the operation. Who doesn't know, can't talk.
Same goes for people in the hospital. I believe one or two people at the hospital really KNOW, the ones in the room when they brought in the body might only suspect. We haven't heard from anyone at the hospital, which shows me that they too were asked not to talk about it. And the fire alarm at the hospital made sure that only a select few would be able to see the body (damage control).
An autopsy is not required with assisted suicide, so I don't think there even was an autopsy. The cause of death on the DC will be stated as natural, with mention of the decease. No autopsy is needed. The coroner's office knows, they have to. If he didn't slice up MJ, he knows it's a hoax, so in any case the coroner is aware of the hoax. An e-mail I received today from the coroner's office confirms that for me. It was a reply to a question I sent them in October 2009, which is extremely strange. It came from the chief of public services and I am pretty sure she receives many emails, questions and requests. An email from October 2009 would definitely be buried by now, so this tells me she saved it somewhere. Why answer now after 18 months? (still mailing, I will post it if something interesting comes up).
So a real body would definitely bring the number of people in on it down.
As for a living person (MJ or double) or no one at all being in the ambulance, that would increase the people in on it. You can't perform CPR on a person that is perfectly fine or non-exsisting, which means it was all a show and anyone in the room at Carolwood, the EMT's and everyone present in the hospital are in the know. Also, MJ or the double should leave the hospital at a certain moment, and with all the fans and paparazzi present there, that would be way too risky. I don't believe that they would take such a risk.
A real body might not be 'entertaining', but if this is a sting operation, it simply might have been necessary.
On a sidenote: I think Alberto Alvarez is an FBI agent and maybe the other bodyguards as well.
So in a nutshell, here is what I think might have occured that day:
Early morning: Terminally ill patient ends his life by self-administering lethal medications. He is pronounced dead by a doctor, they made sure everything was done according to the rules, and they put him on a plane to LAX to transport him later on to Carolwood Drive. There he is placed on the bed in the heated room, the bottles of propofol, the IV and everything else was planted and Murray and Alvarez waited until 12:21 to call '911'. I think it was a fake call to make sure the right ambulance with the informed driver would be sent. Ambulance 71 goes to the mansion, EMT's see dead person, scratch themselves behind their ears but have no other choice then to try and resuscitate the body, since Murray is the higher authority. They bring the body to UCLA, where Cooper is the higher authority and can make sure death won't be called until the planned time of 2:26 pm. The body stayed at the UCLA morgue and nothing was transported to the coroner, which is why there was no need for a real body bag. It does mean the helicopter crew is in the know, plus the people present at that time at the coroner's office. The one sitting up in the helicopter could have been anyone. I think the person was buried on July 6th, since we have a video of the Jacksons at a burial at FL on that day. INFORMED about the hoax/sting on that day: Murray, bodyguards (FBI agents?), ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present), Chief of LAFD Barry (resigned on May 28th, 2009 and left office on August 1, 2009 after only 2 years: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-c ... 8069.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-chief-barry-resigns,0,4528069.story)<!-- m -->) and Chief of LAPD Bratton (who resigned in August 2009, leaving in October, with 3 years left of his 5-year term: <!-- m -->http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-b ... 4648.story (http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-bratton-resigns,0,6544648.story)<!-- m -->) Ben Evenstad and his colleague, Dr. Cooper, the helicopter crew and the Coroner's office. So except from the family those are mostly government agencies and only a few civilians.
This means less people in the know. Some might suspect things, but I don't think you can avoid that, but you can make sure the number of people informed about the hoax is as low as possible. Of all the options (MJ, double, dummy, real corpse or nothing) a real corpse will have the less people involved, because I really don't think professional medical experts would be fooled with a dummy and IF they could be fooled with a dummy, they would have made sure the dummy looked like MJ, but it didn't.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 02:39:40 PM
Why did he not end Level 7 last year if Souza had already posted all the right answers?
Might be because Souza's findings and theory were brilliant but
a) were not 100% accurate
b) were not believed by many
c) early acknowledgement of principessa would demotivate others
d) talking 1 on 1 only was not the plan
e) would cause an end to main hoax course too early
f) would interrupt the process of keeping contact with many
g) would interfere with termination of other important project areas (business, contracts, law suits, finances, family projects etc.)
g) were simply not meeting his (time) schedule
h) ...
Indeed there are infinite good possibilities. But the timeline of TIAI and the Levels is and always has been under TS/TS_comment's sole control. He has always directed the conversation and choreographed the precise topics he wants to be focused on. He comes up with the talking points and he asks the relevant questions, directing the investigation, albeit gently. Why would he ask the question (who or what went to UCLA in the ambulance) if it was too early to come up with the answer? There's plenty of other things to be discussed/plenty of other truths to be discovered, minor things, to pass the time, keep us encouraged, draw things out so the master plan is enhanced rather then threatened.
I have questions, that's all. It doesn't make sense in my head. Things usually click into place. I can't get over the feeling that something isn't right so I listen to it. I have learned to listen to my gut and it's unsettled. i don't know why so I pick at things. I want to satisfy this nagging doubt.
The story that goes along with the sting theory feels like the plot of Moonwalker (the bad guys are out to get MJ) and I can't ignore that, especially when the evidence for a sting theory is stuff that isn't compelling for me. 333 pages can't be ignored, that's compelling... but that's not proof of a sting, it is only proof that the FBI are involved some way. Might be one guy, might be the whole organization, but it still doesn't prove there's a sting. Long ago someone pulled up the page on the FBI site devoted to the FBI's entertainment division, where the FBI work with producers and directors of TV and movies to help out as consultants. Did MJ take that opportunity to the extreme? The country is indeed broke. I imagine the FBI routinely charges a fee to entertainment divisions looking to retain their services through this program. What if MJ paid handsomely for this extreme level of "consulting"?
If MJ is truly afraid, I don't see him talking to the media about it (for years of apparently doing nothing otherwise), and allowing himself to be portrayed in public to TPTB as a scared prey animal looking over his shoulder all the time, not to mention giving the media vultures that kind of story to sell. Why should they profit off his very real danger? I see him, like anyone else really, going to the authorities and asking for protection. He has 3 young children, how can he risk inaction if he feels his life is in danger? He must go to the authorities. And if not in the US, why not in Bahrain where he feels safe (presumably) or Ireland where he found solace? Or Japan, who apparently are very sympathetic to and fond of MJ. It just doesn't fit with MJ's track record that he go to the media to help him with a very real danger.
@btc, I am glad you are not angry. TS_comments attested up until the very end that the body vs. dummy/liveMJ debate was not settled, and the level that sparked the debate was in fact Level 3, I think some have recalled. It makes me wonder why, then, was "who or what went in the ambulance" Level 3 if it's not to be "discovered" til Level 7 which isn't to be finished until a year and a half later in 2012? Again, infinite reasons to explain the timings and transgressions that have occurred and I don't know what purpose I intend to serve by rehashing it over and over. All of this that I offer is speculation. I don't know what's right and what's real and I may have gotten it all wrong this whole time.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 03:00:19 PM
Bec, are you saying we deserve a degree in Logic and Reasoning for our 4 years of intensive study?
(http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww343/CPAPAARTHUR/BETTY%20BOOP/th_graduate.gif)
In regards to when I asked if anyone had read Obedience? No. I asked because the book is creepily familiar. The professor in the story could be TS and the class could be TIAI. I identified with the students and their struggle to discern the truth, the story was told from their perspectives. Interesting read. I was wondering if anyone else had read it.
Post by: ellyd on December 04, 2012, 03:17:56 PM
There are people putting pegs with valerian scent rubbed onto them somewhere into the wilderness to attract wild cat to rub their body on them. The aim is to collect lost hairs with DNA to prove genealogy of wild cat population.
If this principle works there, it will work here too: if you want to allure a rat into potentially dangerous environment, you must give it something it really likes to overcome its cautiousness / fear.
A relatively successful path could be to
a) flatter the rat (risk: when will it stop falling for flattery?)
b) promise it exactly the piece of cheese it was missing so long (risk: will it look at anything else than that piece of cheese and not notice the guillotine above its head?)
c) make hampering bars appear smaller / yourself appear weaker to make the victory of the rat more probable (risk: will the rat believe you're weak? deliver more proof of it - shorten frequency of third party witness utterances that you're really weak thus increase the memory effect of your so said incapacity)
d) hold still and do nothing that could raise any questions about individual security. (risk: rat getting bored as time goes by and losing interest?)
MJ probably did all of the above in public where he would have to meet his foes. At least the "weak, fragile, 6 months to live, drugged up, easy to handle, not capable of own decisions, 'fearing for his life' wrack" goes into that category IMO.
TS did not do any of the above on this board - in my perception.
This makes sides very clear.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 04:14:02 PM
Quote
At least the "weak, fragile, 6 months to live, drugged up, easy to handle, not capable of own decisions, 'fearing for his life' wrack" goes into that category IMO.
Or was it to sell the story of his eventual death to the world and plant a bunch of back tracking rabbit holes to prompt the curious to dig deeper?
I can't imagine the FBI would launch a sting operation spanning nearly a decade to catch an entity threatening a pop star (and I can't imagine MJ would wait years to seek their assistance either, as in a scenario where he only just got them involved in 2009). Matters of national security, yes, but this is an exorbitant amount of federal funds we are talking about here to keep up a sting operation for 8 or so years. Why would the FBI allocate the funds and resources over this length of time to protecting MJ, without resulting in even one arrest?
I have great difficulty satisfying the numerology with the FBI sting theory and the DWD theory. I also have difficulty satisfying both with the concept that this has been planned for 20 years. I don't know how you can plan for a terminally ill fair complexion male MJ fan to make the choice to utilize DWD, in a year and month that works with the numerology of the event which is non-negotiable and somehow the FBI was able to locate this person and make the arrangements. I also don't know how you can plan for the FBI to launch a sting operation in which you can participate in to occur also in a year and month that works with the same non-negotiable time tables. It's just very difficult to accept all these things worked out in accordance with MJ's numerology, or that he was able to influence them all without fail unless he was the one ultimately in charge. Enter the FBI conducting a sting operation, MJ is no longer in charge.
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 04, 2012, 05:19:14 PM
Post by: mindseye on December 04, 2012, 05:26:28 PM
QuoteAt least the "weak, fragile, 6 months to live, drugged up, easy to handle, not capable of own decisions, 'fearing for his life' wrack" goes into that category IMO.
Or was it to sell the story of his eventual death to the world and plant a bunch of back tracking rabbit holes to prompt the curious to dig deeper?
I think you're right, to sell the story of his eventual death.
I can't imagine the FBI would launch a sting operation spanning nearly a decade to catch an entity threatening a pop star (and I can't imagine MJ would wait years to seek their assistance either, as in a scenario where he only just got them involved in 2009).
I can't imagine that either. I think it was a plan that evolved over the years, probably changed as events happened, especially 2003 - 05. Thinking about Front's post - "A vision, Aug 25 2006" and probably from that point plans around dates and numerology were thought out, along with approaching FBI... didn't the family talk about wanting to go after Sneddon for malicious prosecution? I remember Mesereau saying that he told MJ to leave Neverland ranch after the verdict because he learned they were angry, and going to try again to build another molestation case.
idk maybe it was that in combination with other bad ass business ppl that he decided to go to the FBI later ... and maybe we'll never know, or we'll see it in a movie someday. :icon_e_confused:
Post by: paula-c on December 04, 2012, 08:04:47 PM
Quote
Currently, the FBI's top investigative priorities are:[5]
1.Protect the United States from terrorist attacks (see counter-terrorism);
2.Protect the United States against foreign intelligence operations and espionage (see counter-intelligence);
3.Protect the United States against cyber-based attacks and high-technology crimes (see cyber-warfare);
4.Combat public corruption at all levels;
5.Protect civil rights;
6.Combat transnational/national criminal organizations and enterprises (see organized crime);
7.Combat major white-collar crime;
8.Combat significant violent crime.
Quote
Organizational Structure
The FBI is organized into five functional branches and the Office of the Director, which contains most administrative offices. Each Branch is managed by an Executive Assistant Director. Each Branch is then divided into Offices and Divisions, each headed by an Assistant Director. The various Divisions are further divided into sub Branches, led by Deputy Assisant Directors. Within these sub Branches there are various Sections headed by Section Chiefs. Section Chiefs are ranked analogous to Special Agents in Charge.
Three of the Branches report to the Deputy Director while two report to the Associate Director. The five functions Branches of the FBI are:
FBI National Security Branch
FBI Criminal, Cyber, Response, and Services Branch
FBI Science and Technology Branch
FBI Information and Technology Branch
FBI Human Resources Branch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation
http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/fbi-headquarters/org_chart/organizational_chart
Post by: Adi on December 04, 2012, 08:19:37 PM
In fact it was posted before we even learned that the trial was going to be delayed until September that year.
SO if the purpose WAS to always have a trial then why would TS give that much information away before the Dr M trial even began by redirecting to it. Especially if part of the purpose of the Dr M trial really was a sting operation. TS had been hinting at the use of a corpse before the trial, back in May 2010, but never in as much detail as that post by Souza.
Yep - TS did say it was sting against the fans and the media - but TS also said it was not only those things:
Finally: is this hoax a prank, or a Thriller II reality movie, or an ARG, or a sting operation, or a Vendetta, or an NWO/EOW warning, or a wake-up call to the gullible public (don't believe everything in the media), etc--which is it? And the answer is: all of the above! It is something that people have never seen before, at least not the combination of these things and on this scale.
I agree BTC and RK:
If this is all only for a movie and entertainment and there was never any real conspiracy or danger to MJ, then I hope he never bams. Because the general public and some fans will not take it well.[massive understatement] There will be backlash like he's never experienced.
However, if his life was threatened and there was gov't agencies cooperating and working within the hoax, then when the truth does come out, there will not be the uproar about being lied to or fooled. After all....who could blame one for doing what is necessary to survive. FBI involvement allows MJ to BAM in the appointed and perfect timing, and come out of it all vindicated, wrongs righted and most of all blameless for the whole thing.
Completely agree with everything you said RK....from start to finish, especially the bolded part. If that's the case, that it's all just a game OR a sting against the media and fans...then for his own sake, he's better off staying 'dead' and living his life FAR away from the public eye.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 08:30:49 PM
Yep - TS did say it was sting against the fans and the media - but TS also said it was not only those things:
Finally: is this hoax a prank, or a Thriller II reality movie, or an ARG, or a sting operation, or a Vendetta, or an NWO/EOW warning, or a wake-up call to the gullible public (don't believe everything in the media), etc--which is it? And the answer is: all of the above! It is something that people have never seen before, at least not the combination of these things and on this scale.
Yes but he didn't say the sting operation was on more then just the fans and the media, he said the hoax was more then just a sting on the fans and the media.
Post by: MJonmind on December 04, 2012, 08:37:47 PM
Paula quoted Strike
Quote
Besides, as much as MJ means to us, FBI has no competence of acting as personal bodyguard or favors for anyone unless it's professional. And so far I don't see the positive connection between this institution and Michael's persona. I guess if there were any, Michael's damaging trials would have never taken place.I wondered about why they didn't intervene but just let the jury do their thing, taking that chance. :icon_e_confused:
Ellyd, are you suggesting a sting on the FBI? Because since the very first time TS mentioned their involvement, my first reaction was that they were linked to the CIA, corrupt US government, 911 cover-up, banker money, and consequently Israel. Afterall doesn’t the buck stop at the FBI? Aren’t they the ones US citizens should fear, the final authority? I recall many movies with FBI playing a small part, and ALWAYS without fail, they are seen as the good guys, almost like angels. What if that is all a big fat lie? There’s many lies Hollywood has been telling us for decades, that I don’t want to get into here.
Well, the thing going on in my brain since almost the beginning, is EITHER of two ways. One, this is all of the Illuminati/TPTB’s orchestration using MJ as a mind-conrolled slave since childhood, brilliantly using numerology as they have for centuries, moving behind the scenes, creating wars, dramas, social divides, seducing the public through Hollywood and the music industry, and moving us toward a scenario where MJ fulfills their Biblical Revelation prophecy for their world domination or NWO. After-all, even the Chilean minor’s story was riddled with numerology.
Or two, MJ is using some of ‘their’ techniques to beat them at their game, and that there are (like TS says) key secret players in each strategic place that are on side in this hoax, and that MJ has some kind of super-natural power on side for him, protecting him and covering the eyes of the enemy. On many posts, Back/Front/TS have hinted at this special protection and guidance from God. I know this sounds like a cop-out answer, just like the ‘FBI doesn’t tell MJ everything’, and ‘everybody’s in on the hoax’. But otherwise I can totally understand why this whole set-up just does not jive with the info we’ve been given. We have studied in depth the rabbit trails of all the people out to get MJ behind the scenes, which has totally convinced 95% of the MJ fan base that MJ has been murdered. Has all that been made up? The underside of web connections to other shadowy people involved in the 2005 trial run very deep, we’ve talked even the Vatican being involved. The crime rings of pedophilia involve world leaders and the most wealthy/powerful on earth. I feel there’s another layer involved that simply cannot be easily revealed to us by TS. Obviously I wouldn't be here if I truly believed the first option.
Post by: Andrea on December 04, 2012, 08:38:55 PM
QuoteCurrently, the FBI's top investigative priorities are:[5]
1.Protect the United States from terrorist attacks (see counter-terrorism);
2.Protect the United States against foreign intelligence operations and espionage (see counter-intelligence);
3.Protect the United States against cyber-based attacks and high-technology crimes (see cyber-warfare);
4.Combat public corruption at all levels;
5.Protect civil rights;
6.Combat transnational/national criminal organizations and enterprises (see organized crime);
7.Combat major white-collar crime;
8.Combat significant violent crime.QuoteOrganizational Structure
The FBI is organized into five functional branches and the Office of the Director, which contains most administrative offices. Each Branch is managed by an Executive Assistant Director. Each Branch is then divided into Offices and Divisions, each headed by an Assistant Director. The various Divisions are further divided into sub Branches, led by Deputy Assisant Directors. Within these sub Branches there are various Sections headed by Section Chiefs. Section Chiefs are ranked analogous to Special Agents in Charge.
Three of the Branches report to the Deputy Director while two report to the Associate Director. The five functions Branches of the FBI are:
FBI National Security Branch
FBI Criminal, Cyber, Response, and Services Branch
FBI Science and Technology Branch
FBI Information and Technology Branch
FBI Human Resources Branch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Bureau_of_Investigation
http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/fbi-headquarters/org_chart/organizational_chart
IF there is a sting (beyond media and fans) that's been going on for years, in such an unconventional manner, it would have to be worth the FBI's while and resources. The longer the sting, the bigger the target.
Post by: Andrea on December 04, 2012, 08:54:36 PM
Andrea, maybe TS simply meant ‘no body’ in the casket or burial, yet still one on the way to UCLA. The FBI article was talking about graveyards afterall, not the 911 dying stage.
Ellyd, are you suggesting a sting on the FBI? Because since the very first time TS mentioned their involvement, my first reaction was that they were linked to the CIA, corrupt US government, 911 cover-up, banker money, and consequently Israel. Afterall doesn’t the buck stop at the FBI? Aren’t they the ones US citizens should fear, the final authority? I recall many movies with FBI playing a small part, and ALWAYS without fail, they are seen as the good guys, almost like angels. What if that is all a big fat lie? There’s many lies Hollywood has been telling us for decades, that I don’t want to get into here.
Who knows what TS really means at any given moment? :smiley-vault-misc-150: :icon_lol:
I had suggested a sting on the FBI by the FBI a while ago, based on the invasive role they played in MJ's life over the years. It was one of those thoughts just popped into my mind so I posted it, without considering it's plausibility. :icon_geek:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg427191.html#msg427191
Post by: MJonmind on December 04, 2012, 08:57:40 PM
Quote
1.Protect the United States from terrorist attacks (see counter-terrorism);
See right there is the first involvement in deception. Are they supporting that Arab terrorists with newly acquired flying licenses commandeered planes into the Trade towers. Ever since then, the US government has had the excuse/okay to up security everywhere. The many engineers/demolition/pilot experts who spoke against the official story, would agree the US Commission to look into 911 was a farce and further cover-up. Of course the whole media world was complicit.
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 08:58:11 PM
The CIA is a civilian agency department of the government run by it's director that gathers intelligence. They are a little more mysterious then the FBI, but they are not subordinate to the agency. The CIA is independent and deal directly with the White House and Congress.
Post by: MJonmind on December 04, 2012, 09:04:57 PM
Post by: iamamjbeliever on December 04, 2012, 09:09:18 PM
Can Obama over-rule them and give them a command? Then MJ needs Obama.
no the president has no government control, presidents are puppets and they do what they are told to do. Michael doesn't need Obama or any other politician because they are all sold by banks and corporations, michael needs the people to abolishing corrupt system we live in (matrix)
Post by: Andrea on December 04, 2012, 09:10:22 PM
Well, the thing going on in my brain since almost the beginning, is EITHER of two ways. One, this is all of the Illuminati/TPTB’s orchestration using MJ as a mind-conrolled slave since childhood, brilliantly using numerology as they have for centuries, moving behind the scenes, creating wars, dramas, social divides, seducing the public through Hollywood and the music industry, and moving us toward a scenario where MJ fulfills their Biblical Revelation prophecy for their world domination or NWO. After-all, even the Chilean minor’s story was riddled with numerology.
Or two, MJ is using some of ‘their’ techniques to beat them at their game, and that there are (like TS says) key secret players in each strategic place that are on side in this hoax, and that MJ has some kind of super-natural power on side for him, protecting him and covering the eyes of the enemy. On many posts, Back/Front/TS have hinted at this special protection and guidance from God. I know this sounds like a cop-out answer, just like the ‘FBI doesn’t tell MJ everything’, and ‘everybody’s in on the hoax’. But otherwise I can totally understand why this whole set-up just does not jive with the info we’ve been given. We have studied in depth the rabbit trails of all the people out to get MJ behind the scenes, which has totally convinced 95% of the MJ fan base that MJ has been murdered. Has all that been made up? The underside of web connections to other shadowy people involved in the 2005 trial run very deep, we’ve talked even the Vatican being involved. The crime rings of pedophilia involve world leaders and the most wealthy/powerful on earth. I feel there’s another layer involved that simply cannot be easily revealed to us by TS. Obviously I wouldn't be here if I truly believed the first option.
I've had very similar thoughts to you here.
Option 1 - absolute WORST case scenario. I don't believe this one.
Option 2 - absolute BEST case scenario. Good defeating evil.
Post by: iamamjbeliever on December 04, 2012, 09:13:42 PM
The FBI isn't equip to take down TPTB. For one reason, they are almost certainly under the control of TPTB. Every state law enforcement agency in the country answers to the FBI but the FBI answers to the Department of Justice in the United States and the Attorney General who is appointed by the President.Tptb controls everything, everything...corporations, banks, religions etc..
The CIA is a civilian agency department of the government run by it's director that gathers intelligence. They are a little more mysterious then the FBI, but they are not subordinate to the agency. The CIA is independent and deal directly with the White House and Congress.
Post by: MJonmind on December 04, 2012, 09:30:16 PM
Edit: took out video
And MJ can't be under mind-control when he says this, that rules out option 1 for me.
Okay sorry, that video has been removed, and I wonder by who, since the content was highly "anti-blah-blah-blah" (as Back put it) on the part of MJ.
Andrea, I remember your mention of 'who watches the FBI'.
I really believe for the Bad cover MJ requested, he intuitively was getting this message out that there is a veil of protection/mystery/camouflage covering him so 'they' can't recognize him. His producers said 'We're not going to put a schmatka (polish/yiddish) over his face; he's got to have a tough image'. It didn't make sense to them.
(http://www.positivelymichael.com/forums/customavatars/avatar334_14.gif)
Post by: bec on December 04, 2012, 09:36:55 PM
Quote
Who monitors or oversees the FBI?
The FBI’s activities are closely and regularly scrutinized by a variety of entities. Congress—through several oversight committees in the Senate and House—reviews the FBI’s budget appropriations, programs, and selected investigations. The results of FBI investigations are often reviewed by the judicial system during court proceedings. Within the U.S. Department of Justice, the FBI is responsible to the attorney general, and it reports its findings to U.S. Attorneys across the country. The FBI’s intelligence activities are overseen by the Director of National Intelligence.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 04, 2012, 10:38:11 PM
The FBI isn't equip to take down TPTB. For one reason, they are almost certainly under the control of TPTB. Every state law enforcement agency in the country answers to the FBI but the FBI answers to the Department of Justice in the United States and the Attorney General who is appointed by the President.
Possibly also some cross pollination.. but JMO. (have no proof, but tend to think these worlds collide, or at least indivuals do)
Look like there are some awesome posts here for me to read. Thanks all for your great contributions. Abt to board a plane to NZ for 4 days. (MJ pls dont bam, lol) Hope I have good wifi where I am stayn so I can hoax internationally LOL. Really intrigued by some of the posts here re FBI, but only just scan reading. Looking fwd to landing and checking in so I can read your posts thoroughly.
Peace :icon_razz:
Post by: jono on December 05, 2012, 03:54:47 AM
Andrea, maybe TS simply meant ‘no body’ in the casket or burial, yet still one on the way to UCLA. The FBI article was talking about graveyards afterall, not the 911 dying stage.
Paula quoted StrikeQuoteBesides, as much as MJ means to us, FBI has no competence of acting as personal bodyguard or favors for anyone unless it's professional. And so far I don't see the positive connection between this institution and Michael's persona. I guess if there were any, Michael's damaging trials would have never taken place.I wondered about why they didn't intervene but just let the jury do their thing, taking that chance. :icon_e_confused:
Ellyd, are you suggesting a sting on the FBI? Because since the very first time TS mentioned their involvement, my first reaction was that they were linked to the CIA, corrupt US government, 911 cover-up, banker money, and consequently Israel. Afterall doesn’t the buck stop at the FBI? Aren’t they the ones US citizens should fear, the final authority? I recall many movies with FBI playing a small part, and ALWAYS without fail, they are seen as the good guys, almost like angels. What if that is all a big fat lie? There’s many lies Hollywood has been telling us for decades, that I don’t want to get into here.
Well, the thing going on in my brain since almost the beginning, is EITHER of two ways. One, this is all of the Illuminati/TPTB’s orchestration using MJ as a mind-conrolled slave since childhood, brilliantly using numerology as they have for centuries, moving behind the scenes, creating wars, dramas, social divides, seducing the public through Hollywood and the music industry, and moving us toward a scenario where MJ fulfills their Biblical Revelation prophecy for their world domination or NWO. After-all, even the Chilean minor’s story was riddled with numerology.
Or two, MJ is using some of ‘their’ techniques to beat them at their game, and that there are (like TS says) key secret players in each strategic place that are on side in this hoax, and that MJ has some kind of super-natural power on side for him, protecting him and covering the eyes of the enemy. On many posts, Back/Front/TS have hinted at this special protection and guidance from God. I know this sounds like a cop-out answer, just like the ‘FBI doesn’t tell MJ everything’, and ‘everybody’s in on the hoax’. But otherwise I can totally understand why this whole set-up just does not jive with the info we’ve been given. We have studied in depth the rabbit trails of all the people out to get MJ behind the scenes, which has totally convinced 95% of the MJ fan base that MJ has been murdered. Has all that been made up? The underside of web connections to other shadowy people involved in the 2005 trial run very deep, we’ve talked even the Vatican being involved. The crime rings of pedophilia involve world leaders and the most wealthy/powerful on earth. I feel there’s another layer involved that simply cannot be easily revealed to us by TS. Obviously I wouldn't be here if I truly believed the first option.
:abouttime: :th_bravo:
Post by: jono on December 05, 2012, 03:57:31 AM
Quote1.Protect the United States from terrorist attacks (see counter-terrorism);
See right there is the first involvement in deception. Are they supporting that Arab terrorists with newly acquired flying licenses commandeered planes into the Trade towers. Ever since then, the US government has had the excuse/okay to up security everywhere. The many engineers/demolition/pilot experts who spoke against the official story, would agree the US Commission to look into 911 was a farce and further cover-up. Of course the whole media world was complicit.
:th_bravo:
[youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW6mJOqRDI4[/youtube]
Post by: MJonmind on December 05, 2012, 05:39:34 AM
Yet the FBI ignored scientific evidence. They may even be part of the perpetrators.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/famous-cases/9-11-investigation
Quote
They were the most lethal terrorist attacks in history, taking the lives of 3,000 Americans and international citizens and ultimately leading to far-reaching changes in anti-terror approaches and operations in the U.S. and around the globe.
Our ensuing investigation of the attacks of 9/11—code-named “PENTTBOM”—was our largest investigation ever. At the peak of the case, more than half our agents worked to identify the hijackers and their sponsors and, with other agencies, to head off any possible future attacks. We followed more than half-a-million investigative leads, including several hundred thousand tips from the public. The attack and crash sites also represented the largest crime scenes in FBI history.
For more information:
Press Release of September 27, 2001 with photographs of the 19 hijackers
American Airlines #11
American Airlines #77
United Airlines #93
United Airlines #175
Zacarias Moussaoui: In April 2005, Moussaoui pled guilty to six charges against him related to his participation in the 9/11 conspiracy. In May 2006, he was sentenced to life in prison.
Director Mueller’s Statement on the Indictment on December 11, 2001
Indictment
FBI Agent Lenny Hatton—who died in the 9/11 attacks—is presented the heroes medal of valor. Former FBI Special Agent in Charge John P. O’Neill also lost his life in the attacks.
Here's a former FBI chief speaking out and saying CIA and FBI were behind the 911 attacks to bring in laws restricting our freedoms, and planning initially started in Great Britain.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BKP5iNof5M[/youtube]
So if one former FBI chief can speak out against his own group, are there others who work inside that could be MJ's key person? Almost seems possible to me.
Post by: jono on December 05, 2012, 07:02:42 AM
Thanks Jono, I watched much of the video. Thousands of educated professionals in related fields were unanimous --all 3 buildings controlled demolition.
Yet the FBI ignored scientific evidence. They may even be part of the perpetrators.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/history/famous-cases/9-11-investigationQuoteThey were the most lethal terrorist attacks in history, taking the lives of 3,000 Americans and international citizens and ultimately leading to far-reaching changes in anti-terror approaches and operations in the U.S. and around the globe.
Our ensuing investigation of the attacks of 9/11—code-named “PENTTBOM”—was our largest investigation ever. At the peak of the case, more than half our agents worked to identify the hijackers and their sponsors and, with other agencies, to head off any possible future attacks. We followed more than half-a-million investigative leads, including several hundred thousand tips from the public. The attack and crash sites also represented the largest crime scenes in FBI history.
For more information:
Press Release of September 27, 2001 with photographs of the 19 hijackers
American Airlines #11
American Airlines #77
United Airlines #93
United Airlines #175
Zacarias Moussaoui: In April 2005, Moussaoui pled guilty to six charges against him related to his participation in the 9/11 conspiracy. In May 2006, he was sentenced to life in prison.
Director Mueller’s Statement on the Indictment on December 11, 2001
Indictment
FBI Agent Lenny Hatton—who died in the 9/11 attacks—is presented the heroes medal of valor. Former FBI Special Agent in Charge John P. O’Neill also lost his life in the attacks.
Here's a former FBI chief speaking out and saying CIA and FBI were behind the 911 attacks to bring in laws restricting our freedoms, and planning initially started in Great Britain.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BKP5iNof5M[/youtube]
So if one former FBI chief can speak out against his own group, are there others who work inside that could be MJ's key person? Almost seems possible to me.
Yes, yes! Key people in the right places... Playing their own game against them (TPTB)... :D
Btw. Now even seismic evidence implies controlled demolition on 9/11 - http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/12/seismic-evidence-prove-controlled-demolition-on-911.html (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/12/seismic-evidence-prove-controlled-demolition-on-911.html)
As I can recall, TS confirmed the story of Michael canceling a meeting at the WTC the morning of 9/11? Pretty scary! :icon_pale:
Post by: curls on December 05, 2012, 07:09:58 AM
This recent turn in discussions regarding the FBI has resonated loudly with me and gone a long way to explain, in my own mind, why I've been uneasy about things since TS's DWD posts.
Let me say a bit more: The FBI has never equalled 'the good guys' in my eyes. It is part of the system and as such will contain corrupt agents and officials as well as honest ones. Rather than the knowledge of probable FBI involvement in MJ's hoax giving me 'comfort', for want of a better word, it actually fills me with suspicion and doubt.
Then I learn that they may have orchestrated June 25th in everything but date and time, included a DWD patient, and I cannot fathom out the reason for this, because if they decided they needed a corpse (which I don't believe they did, IF they were merely executing MJ's faked death, but that's another subject altogether) there would surely have been 'easier' ways to acquire one.
Which leaves me not knowing if any FBI involvement has MJ's best interests at heart or if taking control away from him for the events of 25th June, is a sign of a hidden agenda behind it all.
Do I trust MJ? More to the point do I trust that he knows who HE can trust? At this point I feel I can only wait and see and hope that indeed he did out think 'them' and use 'them' for his own purposes.
Post by: Andrea on December 05, 2012, 08:02:05 AM
curls, I know exactly what you mean about the FBI. They are part of the "Establishment". I remember TS saying that it wouldn't be the whole FBI involved. I think if the FBI is actively helping MJ then it would be a few honest agents. What I'm not sure is if they can keep what they're doing on the DL from their superiors, unless it's a specific office where the Assistant Director is aware and is able to cover it up somehow. Sort of like how AD Skinner in the X Files did what he could for Mulder and Scully. That show is a good example of the corruption in the upper echelons of the FBI and the agents who hoped to expose them. I know it's fictional but you know what they say - truth is stranger than fiction.
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 05, 2012, 08:04:58 AM
Some amazing posts guys in the past couple of days. I'm reading a lot but haven't been posting as I didn't want to keep repeating myself!
This recent turn in discussions regarding the FBI has resonated loudly with me and gone a long way to explain, in my own mind, why I've been uneasy about things since TS's DWD posts.
Let me say a bit more: The FBI has never equalled 'the good guys' in my eyes. It is part of the system and as such will contain corrupt agents and officials as well as honest ones. Rather than the knowledge of probable FBI involvement in MJ's hoax giving me 'comfort', for want of a better word, it actually fills me with suspicion and doubt.
Then I learn that they may have orchestrated June 25th in everything but date and time, included a DWD patient, and I cannot fathom out the reason for this, because if they decided they needed a corpse (which I don't believe they did, IF they were merely executing MJ's faked death, but that's another subject altogether) there would surely have been 'easier' ways to acquire one.
Which leaves me not knowing if any FBI involvement has MJ's best interests at heart or if taking control away from him for the events of 25th June, is a sign of a hidden agenda behind it all.
Do I trust MJ? More to the point do I trust that he knows who HE can trust? At this point I feel I can only wait and see and hope that indeed he did out think 'them' and use 'them' for his own purposes.
wonderful post curls, it's true that FBI involvement may lead to 'somewhere else', healing the world, or having a criminal investigation may after all be only our assumptions.
Even if there are some honest people within the FBI helping MJ, that won't work out for too long, because the bad guys will soon discover it. FBI is definitely part of the system...and I don't know where that leaves us.
curls, I know exactly what you mean about the FBI. They are part of the "Establishment". I remember TS saying that it wouldn't be the whole FBI involved. I think if the FBI is actively helping MJ then it would be a few honest agents. What I'm not sure is if they can keep what they're doing on the DL from their superiors, unless it's a specific office where the Assistant Director is aware and is able to cover it up somehow. Sort of like how AD Skinner in the X Files did what he could for Mulder and Scully. That show is a good example of the corruption in the upper echelons of the FBI and the agents who hoped to expose them. I know it's fictional but you know what they say - truth is stranger than fiction.
No Andrea, i don't think the honest agents would be able to hide their assistance to MJ. it would found out easily...
Post by: BeTheChange on December 05, 2012, 08:12:01 AM
There was discussion awhile back on the forum of 'the two factions'...Im_convinced had some really great posts about this 'theory'. Much like a lot of other things, and ESPECIALLY if true....it would be difficult to prove with 'hands-on'/concrete evidence. However, based on 'world events' and how things have been, and are, playing out on the world stage...there is a lot of 'common sense' that can be applied to support the theory. For those interested in reading/researching the 'two factions' (what they are, what their plans are, etc)...here's a good starting point (if you google "two factions F1 F2" there's some more interesting links)... http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=41807 (http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=41807)
Of course, none of this may be true or really going on...but research I've done tells me there's some (or a lot of lol) truth to it...and my 'gut' tells me that Mike has been part of F2 for a very long time. All of it does tie in with TS/The Sign's focus on 'good vs evil', 'a war going on', 'choosing sides', 'the NWO/Illuminati', and a whole bunch more 'dots' we've had along the way. At the least, it's an interesting 'theory'.
Edited to add this link about the 'factions' and 'Pepsi' and 'Coke' ties, which is interesting considering the product placements we've had along the way at different times... http://www.shout.net/~bigred/mc030209.html (http://www.shout.net/~bigred/mc030209.html)
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 05, 2012, 08:22:50 AM
We can assume all we want about the FBI but regardless of whether or not they are involved with the hoax...IMO it's an incorrect assumption to conclude that 'they' are all bad. It would be the same as translating a 'distrust' of religion or religious groups into concluding that ALL people involved in/with religion are 'bad' or 'evil'. That is simply not true. I also don't think that the 'inner workings' of the FBI, or any other high-level govt agency, will be laid out on their websites lol.
There was discussion awhile back on the forum of 'the two factions'...Im_convinced had some really great posts about this 'theory'. Much like a lot of other things, and ESPECIALLY if true....it would be difficult to prove with 'hands-on'/concrete evidence. However, based on 'world events' and how things have been, and are, playing out on the world stage...there is a lot of 'common sense' that can be applied to support the theory. For those interested in reading/researching the 'two factions' (what they are, what their plans are, etc)...here's a good starting point (if you google "two factions F1 F2" there's some more interesting links)... http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=41807 (http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=41807)
Of course, none of this may be true or really going on...but research I've done tells me there's some (or a lot of lol) truth to it...and my 'gut' tells me that Mike has been part of F2 for a very long time. All of it does tie in with TS/The Sign's focus on 'good vs evil', 'a war going on', 'choosing sides', 'the NWO/Illuminati', and a whole bunch more 'dots' we've had along the way. At the least, it's an interesting 'theory'.
Edited to add this link about the 'factions' and 'Pepsi' and 'Coke' ties, which is interesting considering the product placements we've had along the way at different times... http://www.shout.net/~bigred/mc030209.html (http://www.shout.net/~bigred/mc030209.html)
With L.O.V.E. always.
I just read the outlines of the post, F1 being illuminati and f2 being descendants of King of Bavaria. But in today's context, how far is it possible that Michael, if he belongs to F2, pulled off this hoax without any of their knowledge or interference... ?
Post by: BeTheChange on December 05, 2012, 08:29:54 AM
Whether or not these 'factions' even exist (IMO, they do...although I wouldn't bet on all the info about them being 100% accurate)...if we have been able to figure out that Mike is alive, I'm pretty sure 'they' (whoever 'they' are) have too.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 05, 2012, 08:40:21 AM
@Thriller...based on what I've researched, F1 is well aware of F2...and is very aware that they (F2) keep throwing 'stumbling blocks' in their NWO plan.
Whether or not these 'factions' even exist (IMO, they do...although I wouldn't bet on all the info about them being 100% accurate)...if we have been able to figure out that Mike is alive, I'm pretty sure 'they' (whoever 'they' are) have too.
With L.O.V.E. always.
It is definite to me that the F1 knows Michael is alive, they might even have been the first to know. But if Michael is doing this hoax to turn the public against them, won't that be dangerous for Michael? Because Michael is doing all that he can to STOP NWO...and f1 at any cost would want a NWO established. And if they know already know MJ is against them, won't they try to stop him or even kill him? Why would they let him live and pursue in his plans with the hoax.
Post by: curls on December 05, 2012, 09:44:39 AM
We can assume all we want about the FBI but regardless of whether or not they are involved with the hoax...IMO it's an incorrect assumption to conclude that 'they' are all bad.
I don't think anyone's assuming that BTC. Note that I said: " It is part of the system and as such will contain corrupt agents and officials as well as honest ones."
Post by: BeTheChange on December 05, 2012, 09:53:48 AM
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: iamamjbeliever on December 05, 2012, 10:08:33 AM
@Thriller...based on what I've researched, F1 is well aware of F2...and is very aware that they (F2) keep throwing 'stumbling blocks' in their NWO plan.
Whether or not these 'factions' even exist (IMO, they do...although I wouldn't bet on all the info about them being 100% accurate)...if we have been able to figure out that Mike is alive, I'm pretty sure 'they' (whoever 'they' are) have too.
With L.O.V.E. always.
It is definite to me that the F1 knows Michael is alive, they might even have been the first to know. But if Michael is doing this hoax to turn the public against them, won't that be dangerous for Michael? Because Michael is doing all that he can to STOP NWO...and f1 at any cost would want a NWO established. And if they know already know MJ is against them, won't they try to stop him or even kill him? Why would they let him live and pursue in his plans with the hoax.
How you know for sure Michael trying to do that?
of course they would try to kill anyone who's against there agenda, I know there are a few people in our government who are good, and im sure they do their best to protect Michael
Post by: bec on December 05, 2012, 10:10:40 AM
The fact that we have is 333 pages of FBI files on MJ were released on 12/21/09. We collectively agree this indicates some level of FBI participation (the alternative is massive coincidence). Beyond this fact is all speculation. The point I wanted to make originally is that TS_comment's DWD theory relies on a foundation of this speculation, and that's shaky ground for any theory to rest upon.
Post by: bec on December 05, 2012, 10:12:28 AM
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 05, 2012, 10:37:10 AM
@Thriller...based on what I've researched, F1 is well aware of F2...and is very aware that they (F2) keep throwing 'stumbling blocks' in their NWO plan.
Whether or not these 'factions' even exist (IMO, they do...although I wouldn't bet on all the info about them being 100% accurate)...if we have been able to figure out that Mike is alive, I'm pretty sure 'they' (whoever 'they' are) have too.
With L.O.V.E. always.
It is definite to me that the F1 knows Michael is alive, they might even have been the first to know. But if Michael is doing this hoax to turn the public against them, won't that be dangerous for Michael? Because Michael is doing all that he can to STOP NWO...and f1 at any cost would want a NWO established. And if they know already know MJ is against them, won't they try to stop him or even kill him? Why would they let him live and pursue in his plans with the hoax.
How you know for sure Michael trying to do that?
of course they would try to kill anyone who's against there agenda, I know there are a few people in our government who are good, and im sure they do their best to protect Michael
I was just explaining in case Michael was against them, then he would be against their plans too...that's just an assumption though...
@Bec, i understand what you are trying to emphasize upon. But it really hard to prove that FBI is not just covering up but helping with a sting. I had made a list of less than half a dozen points ( only 5 points) that could prove FBI's sting operation...which I'm still not sure of.
1) Michael's speech at the end before Man In The Mirror, where he says that 'we have 4 years to get it right'. I believe he's not just talking about the environmental issue, but something bigger, supposedly a sting on someone.
2) Latoya has been constantly saying 'They murdered my brother' and they know who they are'...referring to TBTP (perhaps). I mean why would she if Michael was in collaboration with them.
3)There was Jermaine's interview, where he said, some American Conspiracy :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGHWLI0491Y[/youtube]
4) Then there was Marlon's FBI cap
(http://grabilla.com/02c05-6f95f5fd-96a9-4d87-8506-367e0597d2c3.png) (http://grabilla.com/02c05-6f95f5fd-96a9-4d87-8506-367e0597d2c3.html)
5) This point is probably nothing (but just stating) The fans (non-believers) did believe the newspapers which said Michael Jackson died...so sting on media and fans is included.
The FBI files are genuine, they are available on their website :
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/december/jackson_122209
EDIT: FBI involvement can also be explained because many people are co-operating...if this was all an individual effort would there be so many people (paramedics, ucla, coroner etc) in on it?
Post by: iamamjbeliever on December 05, 2012, 11:04:02 AM
Post by: iamamjbeliever on December 05, 2012, 11:07:37 AM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inZUDMGJsKo[/youtube]
Post by: Sarahli on December 05, 2012, 11:31:40 AM
It mentions amongst other things that :
Quote
For years, the FBI has been largely exempted from inspector general investigations and left to police itself except in rare situations.
Quote
In those few cases where the Justice Department did allow outside investigations, the FBI "made life both difficult and unpleasant" for the inspector general's personnel, former Inspector General Michael Bromwich told a Senate hearing last month. The FBI's frustrating lack of cooperation, he said, meant less and less oversight of the 11,000-agent bureau.
Therefore we cannot take what is written on their website as the ultimate truth. The reality of the terrain is much more different. Of course we may say this is an old article but I don't think that decades of FBI independence are going to be erased just like that. As an example here is a recent complain (2010) from the ACLU's website proving that things are more or less still the same:
Quote
Without an outside check, FBI agents are able to demand and obtain sensitive information at will. This is the kind of abuse that is inevitable when we broaden the government's surveillance power and don't modernize privacy standards. It has become very clear that the FBI cannot police itself. Congress must step in to institute and conduct rigorous and frequent oversight of the agency's use of NSLs and exigent letters.http://www.aclu.org/national-security/internal-report-finds-flagrant-national-security-letter-abuse-fbi
Therefore the whole governement doesn't need to know about the Hoax as the FBI seems pretty much independant and especially if we consider that just a few key people would know.
Post by: bec on December 05, 2012, 11:51:12 AM
The FBI comes under investigation periodically by the Attorney General, who himself comes under investigation periodically by Congress, who can't seem to coordinate getting ANYTHING accomplished.
The bottom line I'm seeing is that we can't even come close to proving the existence of a sting operation in this hoax.
Trust me-- I would LOVE to uncover clues pointing toward a sting on the people who arranged the allegations against MJ in 1993 and 2005. However, the fact remains, if we could find these clues, they could find them too and possibly get spooked.
Another fact that remains is that these people wouldn't need an actual physical dead body in the ambulance on 6/25/09 to be fooled into believing MJ is dead.
Post by: Sarahli on December 05, 2012, 12:20:27 PM
I wouldn't take what the ACLU says as the gospel truth either. They are pretty much the constant self-appointed Devil's Advocate.
The FBI comes under investigation periodically by the Attorney General, who himself comes under investigation periodically by Congress, who can't seem to coordinate getting ANYTHING accomplished.
The bottom line I'm seeing is that we can't even come close to proving the existence of a sting operation in this hoax.
Trust me-- I would LOVE to uncover clues pointing toward a sting on the people who arranged the allegations against MJ in 1993 and 2005. However, the fact remains, if we could find these clues, they could find them too and possibly get spooked.
Another fact that remains is that these people wouldn't need an actual physical dead body in the ambulance on 6/25/09 to be fooled into believing MJ is dead.
Well, it would be nice then to actually prove it that the FBI is so tightly monitored, but I don't believe so.
As far as the sting is concerned of course it’s not possible to know who are the targets only time can tell. We can just speculate in our position.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 05, 2012, 12:40:32 PM
Another fact that remains is that these people wouldn't need an actual physical dead body in the ambulance on 6/25/09 to be fooled into believing MJ is dead.
They wouldn't need a trial either but that took place. The corpse, if used, would've been to ensure that the hoax/sting doesn't get blown...and the whole thing would've ended abruptly if anything other than a real body was discovered by anyone who wasn't in the know.
But I do get what you're saying about the difficulty in proving the extent of FBI involvement. It's a catch-22 situation....if they are NOT involved in a sting, there won't be any evidence that they are...if they ARE involved in a sting, there won't be any (or hardly any) evidence that they are.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 05, 2012, 01:05:42 PM
Quote
Michael Jackson
Quote of the Day: "I've always wanted to be able to tell stories, you know, stories that came from my soul. I'd like to sit by a fire and tell people stories - make them see pictures, make them cry and laugh, take them anywhere emotionally with something as deceptively simple as words. I'd like to tell tales to move their souls and transform them.” (Moonwalk)
Like · · Share · 9,114484581 · about an hour ago
Story teller :suspect:
Post by: diggyon on December 05, 2012, 01:24:42 PM
The latest posted to MJ Facebook:QuoteMichael Jackson
Quote of the Day: "I've always wanted to be able to tell stories, you know, stories that came from my soul. I'd like to sit by a fire and tell people stories - make them see pictures, make them cry and laugh, take them anywhere emotionally with something as deceptively simple as words. I'd like to tell tales to move their souls and transform them.” (Moonwalk)
Like · · Share · 9,114484581 · about an hour ago
Story teller :suspect:
But this is fun! I've always enjoyed the stories my grandfather used to tell us when i was a little kid! Childhood memories! It's part of who we are.
Post by: paula-c on December 05, 2012, 02:04:44 PM
Ps. Are we SURE the 333 pages of FBI files released are legitimate? There's no way they were faked is there?
In the own site of the FBI said this, now if are false or not, I don't believe.
Quote
In response to Freedom of Information Act requests, the Bureau has released its investigative files on the late entertainer Michael Jackson, who died earlier this year.
The records total 333 pages, divided into seven files. They detail the FBI’s investigation of a man who threatened to kill Jackson, as well as various forms of assistance to California authorities in two cases involving allegations that Jackson had abused children. It should be emphasized that none of these allegations were ever proven in court.
http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/december/jackson_122209
Post by: ShyBleuEyes on December 05, 2012, 02:16:24 PM
.
Post by: Jowayria on December 05, 2012, 02:40:33 PM
Can Obama over-rule them and give them a command? Then MJ needs Obama.
no the president has no government control, presidents are puppets and they do what they are told to do. Michael doesn't need Obama or any other politician because they are all sold by banks and corporations, michael needs the people to abolishing corrupt system we live in (matrix)
Bless you ! that's so freaking true . Michael doesn't need Obama . I beLIEve that he is way rational not to make a such move !
Post by: MJonmind on December 05, 2012, 05:18:00 PM
Quote
Then, moving on... From what you said in your whole message, it seems that the death hoax has only 2 purposes: 1. farse/sting/hoax against the media and 2. against the fans.
Are those 2 ^^ really the only reasons of this death hoax? Entertainment and making the media pay for their crap?
I doubt it.
This is a much more elaborated plan than just that! He wouldn't have needed 10-20 years to only plan a hoax for the media and his fans.
Things go way deeper and there is ABSOLUTELY a danger-factor (conspiracy, death threat, sting) in it all!
PLUS the following:
1. There is also an environmental factor (Save the Planet, heal the World)
2. There is a humanitarian factor (fund raising, Children's hospital, though all the hoax-products that came out and that will continue to come out even after the BAM!)
3. There is also a cleansing/clearing aspect of Michael's image!
4. There is the aspect of corruption in the Justice System, Music and Pharmaceutic Industries!
5. There is also the FBI aspect who may have 2 major interests in getting involved in this hoax: 1. make light in Michael's case of conspiracy against him and 2. some hidden/top secret purpose that would serve only the government/FBI and that we may probably never find out!
And if I left out other important aspects, pls feel free to add to the list.
Sim, 6. There is the upper echelon of evil, TPTB/Illuminati/demonic/alien on a planetary scale where ‘Michael defeats the dragon’ talked of in Revelation. I know that seems of mythical/fanciful stuff, but Back/Front/TS/Michael have talked much about it, so it can’t be ignored altogether, though it seems irrelevant to non-religious people. And indeed TS said it was the most important reason for the hoax. Is he just making this all up to make the story more interesting? I just don't believe so, at least I don't lean that way, though I could be wrong. MJ told Oprah, "I believe in God, very much!" and believe he still thinks that way.
Post by: paula-c on December 05, 2012, 06:26:25 PM
Can Obama over-rule them and give them a command? Then MJ needs Obama.
no the president has no government control, presidents are puppets[/b] and they do what they are told to do. Michael doesn't need Obama or any other politician because they are all sold by banks and corporations, michael needs the people to abolishing corrupt system we live in (matrix)
Bless you ! that's so freaking true . Michael doesn't need Obama . I beLIEve that he is way rational not to make a such move !
On the night of the American elections, the entire world saw the results displayed in real time on the Rockefeller building which is owned by the…Rockefellers. Between the bars representing the Democratic and the Republican party is an artwork depicting a Demiurge “shaping” the world with a Masonic compass – an important gnostic symbol in Secret Societies. The symbolism of this scene is quite telling and flagrant: No matter who wins, it is the Masonic compass that will ultimately shape the world…And that’s pretty much all you need to know about politics.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/pics-of-the-month/symbolic-pics-of-the-month-1212/
(http://vigilantcitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/0c139cab62382a1f200f6a706700a40b-e1354559927143.jpg)
Post by: SimPattyK on December 05, 2012, 06:50:46 PM
It also fits with the numerology of number 11!
Remember the post made by @mindseye...few days ago? and the date of December 22 [11+11].
I definitely think there's something big in the hoax destined to this subject!! Sting or whatever it is, but there is SOMETHING to IT!!
POST BY TS ---> http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg375503.html#msg375503
[...]
First and foremost are MJ’s beliefs about the Bible, the NWO, and the end of the world. I have already documented this significantly, so I won’t repeat it here (see Update #1, for example). For MJ, these beliefs are not just entertainment; they are very real. There is a real battle between good and evil in this world; it has existed for thousands of years, but it gets much more intense near the end of the world.
And anyone who does not take sides with the evil powers, especially if they are rich and/or famous, will become prime targets of these evil powers (often referred to as the Illuminati).
[...]
For those who have been following the tweets from Paris, you know that she has tweeted several things about “secret societies”, the Illuminati, the eye-pyramid (with the Army of Love cutting the strings), the warning about the New World Order, etc. And MJ himself did the music video, while standing beside the NWO all-seeing eye {at 1:05, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q)}. And he has also talked about a “conspiracy”, more than once.
Are all these things just for art and entertainment, with no real threat? And even IF there was no real threat before such warnings were given: would not the warnings themselves generate a real danger?
Would MJ put himself and his children in the cross-hairs of real danger, just for the sake of creating entertainment about a threat that was not real—that is, not real until the entertainment was created?
[...]
“Latoya and Frank Cascio also wrote about 9/11 in their books!!! WHY do they brings this horrible attacks in their books, related to Mj, this is what I don't understand and it really disturbs me” {applehead250609, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg374959#msg374959)}.
Yes indeed, some people on this forum and elsewhere are having trouble understanding the how’s AND THE WHY’S of the hoax, because they are living in a fantasy hoax world: thinking that it’s all just fun and games, with multiple ambulances floating around in the sky—while not gripping the reality of the power and the agenda which exists in the underworld, and that they actually did try to take MJ out in the trade towers on 9-11 (but they failed). How can we be a united Army of Love, to stand up against their corrupt agendas, when so many of the soldiers think that it’s “All for E.N.T.E.R.T.A.I.N.M.E.N.T.”???
[...]
“1. He just knew! He was famous and rich from the age of 5! The fortune hunters were always after him. He is intuitive! He is God-gifted. He just knows things! 2. He got hints from Elvis who also faked his death! He knew what happened to Elvis all his life because of his celebrity! and that Elvis had also received death threats! 3. He saw what happened to John Lenon and other celebs [MLK, JFK, Lady Di, etc]! he didn't want to wait for that happening to him too!” {SimPattyK, http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21319.msg370869#msg370869)}.
Let me share a little secret, about the bitter opposition that I have received for about two years now. If I had never done anything but promote the fun and games aspects of the hoax, you can be sure that the whole hoax world would have been raving about TS for these last two years. The opposition is primarily because I support the serious aspects (Illuminati/NWO, end of the world, etc); humanity generally wants to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and all things will continue fine and dandy. This is precisely the attitude which was prevalent before the flood, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah—and Jesus warned that this would also be the attitude at the end of the world (see Luke 17:26-30).
Nevertheless, even though I have received great opposition from many: I have never received any opposition from the hoax insiders (family, TMZ, etc); quite the opposite, both the family and TMZ have supported TS/TIAI on several occasions {including the recent Too Short article, http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/ (http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/22/rapper-too-short-not-dead/); http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=21471.0)}.
And this is because I have been giving MJ’s real message, including the serious aspects;
and I have NEVER said it was only a movie, or only a sting on the fans and media.
[...]
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/269303vsv.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/debtspnrn.jpg)
Author Frank Cascio recently tweeted about the meeting at The World Trade Centre on 9/11 that Michael had supposedly missed because he overslept.
[....] (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JFM7x4UaZSY/TnjwCfFs2WI/AAAAAAAAA3g/UVpqUj0xbeU/s640/JJ+TT+meeting.png)
Quote
In a new interview, Jermaine gave Access Hollywood’s Billy Bush a preview of the candid memoir where he revealed that his brother was supposed to be in The World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001. “My mother had stayed up with him all the way until four in the morning and he just slept; he missed his appointments, which was great,” Jermaine told Billy, saying Michael — a long time sufferer of sleep deprivation — had planned to attend meetings in the Twin Towers that day.http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread848620/pg1
Quote
LATOYA JACKSON: “Well, Michael got a camper for Elizabeth to get back home from 9/11 and she was in a camper going back home and of course at that time everybody was looking out for everyone’s safety at that particular time. But you know, I never asked him if he was in that camper with her or not. I never did ask that. But I think I was told at some point and then got out. I’m not so sure. But no, Marlin Brando has always been a friend of the family and so has Elizabeth. They would always come over and watch movies with us all the time and have dinners. Elizabeth Taylor would come over and have dinners. This is when we all lived together at Hayvenhurst and yes they’ve been friends for years.”http://www.cyinterview.com/2011/07/la-toya-on-her-brother-michael-jackson%E2%80%99s-death-says-%E2%80%9Cfollow-the-money-trail%E2%80%A6%E2%80%9D-talks-about-her-book-starting-over/
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/024dlchess.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mj911.jpg)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFbqQY6nhRk&list=PLJLDoOHpxPxDsXDQPUKOVD5k56SkiEqbh&index=192[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZyJXoJJ2Lk&list=PLJLDoOHpxPxDsXDQPUKOVD5k56SkiEqbh&index=193[/youtube]
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjjackieke.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjjackxox.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjjfkladyd.jpg)
Post by: SimPattyK on December 05, 2012, 07:28:36 PM
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX-UfVXPypU&list=PLJLDoOHpxPxDsXDQPUKOVD5k56SkiEqbh&index=184[/youtube]
Post by: bec on December 05, 2012, 10:06:09 PM
As in, how'd we get from there to here? The FBI needed to be involved to make the DWD legal for "use" in the hoax, give clearance because of the sting operation. If the FBI isn't helping MJ but rather part of Illuminati and trying to take Michael out, where does the DWD patient come in?
Post by: use_your_illusion on December 06, 2012, 01:29:30 AM
I've always wondered how MJ got inside info, like how he 'just knew' some things. The fact that it seems MJ knew somewhat about the 9/11 attack (well that's what I think anyway) makes me think about who would have told him. I mean yes he is one of the biggest starts on the planet with a huge following but these 'secret societies', whatever you want to call them wouldn't tell him anything about their plans even if he was a puppet of theirs.
Those in the positions to be able to carry out that sort of thing or people in key areas (e.g. Presidents, those in high positions of government) would know this sort of thing (as everything they plan is already 'predetermined'). So I think JFK and Bobby Kennedy would have known about some of the things that they planned.I think you're right Sim, MJ could of got some insight information from JK as JFK would have told her everything, I mean she definitely knew a lot, I bet she even knew who killed JFK judging from her words and refusing to take off the pink suit that had JFK's blood all over it.
Anyway I don't want to trail off but I do think MJ had some kind of discussion with JK as well as other Kennedy's, maybe even John Jr (who spent his time looking into his father's death).
Post by: bugsy on December 06, 2012, 02:00:46 AM
Freemasons are they the same as Illuminati or separate? I have seen some believe they are the same, and others believe they are separate
Post by: MJonmind on December 06, 2012, 02:17:12 AM
Unless MJ is dead and TS is faking being a Illuminatist, then the FBI are doing this operation from a subsection of their organization, perhaps independent from the head. TS is clearly saying 911 was an inside job, and the FBI are clearly saying it was foreign terrorists, and trying to quash all truth about it—two opposite viewpoints. Elvis was clearly against corrupt government and dishonest people, yet he became a Federal agent against drugs, and perhaps more. I really believe that from the midst of evil, there can be good emerge that will contribute towards its demise or at least weakening. If God is the writer of history, how do we know that he is not sowing some kind of discord amongst staff or protection for FBI agents working with MJ on the hoax and Murray trial. Could there be something like Faction A and B in the FBI all this time carefully co-existing? Could the FBI be so focused on their sting on the say Pharmaceutical companies drugging the stars or whatever, that they don’t care what artistic thing MJ does with his ‘death’?
TS
Quote
#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
Sim, great pics on MJ and the Kennedys, and yes they could have told him much inside top secret information, as well as Princess Diana. In the video I posted, the former FBI chief said the 911 planning was coming from Great Britain. Is the US really as independent from them and their Queen, as they think they are? It’s bankers/Bilderbergers/etc that pull the presidential puppet strings. If JFK was really trying to expose the Illuminati and the way bankers would rob Americans blind by the Federal Reserve, there may be many others that stay hidden, quietly making moves.
And yes, Moonwalker is being played out in reality, perhaps on a global scale, and he will come back-- from the skies as well?? As his fans cry and wish.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 06, 2012, 07:59:01 AM
Ok so we lack proof of an FBI sting so the alternative is MJ is taking down the Illuminati and to do so he needed to break the law and use a real dead person?I don't see the Illuminati subject as an alternative to the FBI sting. But more like another facet of the cube.
Regarding the subject: DWD patient vs. dummy/live Mj - to me things are clear: both theories are plausible, but I incline to believe DWD patient theory is more valid than the other one.
I believe the FBI is very much involved in Michael's hoax and there are some bad guys to catch, otherwise FBI wouldn't have even bothered!
But that is just one aspect , just one "corridor" of the whole hoax labirint!
Michael's fight against NWO/Illuminati was OBVIOUS both before and even MORE so after June 25th, 2009.
The way I see it... Michael has a lot of highly positioned enemies, but he also has many POWERFUL friends!
At this point, all the managment/political/military/government institutions seem to be dominated/infiltrated with the bad guys (Illuminati/banker-families/bloodline leaders), including FBI, corruption is everywhere...
BUT that does not mean that there aren't some good guys too, willing to help, probably disgusted, sick and tired by the injustice, the conspiracy , the corruption that are installed right now.
Maybe the help that Michael received from the authorities (FBI, police, Justice system) isn't necessarily OFFICIALLy acknowledged in those institutions! Maybe it's done in some camouflaged form, clandestine operation.
IDK, I am just guessing... Maybe that's why things cannot be entirely revealed YET! We are only put on the waiting mode, and given a bit of orientation... If that's true, then what @MjonMind said about this possibly being a STING not only for the media, fans, Justice system, music industry, pharmaceutical industry, BUT also on the corruption inside FBI! SO a sting by the FBI on the FBI!? Wow! Sounds crazy! but not impossible!
Quote from: use Your Illusion
I mean yes he is one of the biggest stars on the planet with a huge following but these 'secret societies', whatever you want to call them wouldn't tell him anything about their plans even if he was a puppet of theirs.Just like inside government insitutions there can be good guys and bad guys, so it is inside those secret societies!
WHat if all the good people from these organizations decided to form their own "secret society" and act from the shadow against the bad guys!?
How else could anyone beat these bad guys who operate in secrecy, how else could anyone overcome them other than by using their same weapons!? Which means: conspiracy, secrecy, stings, plots, betrayal - ANYTHING that they do for their attorcious purposes, well imagine the good guys using exactly the same "methods" only to expose them, conquer them! V for Vendetta!
I am a dreamer I know! :icon_lol:
Post by: use_your_illusion on December 06, 2012, 08:21:44 AM
I get confused...
Freemasons are they the same as Illuminati or separate? I have seen some believe they are the same, and others believe they are separate
That's a complicated question to answer and isn't as straighfoward. But I guess the gist is that freemasons are from the same branch or group of the Illuminati.
I guess I'll explain it this way. You have secret societies which features different groups of societies which are kind of the same thing, just slightly different with different names. But Illuminati is pretty much a secret society with no rules, one goal and complete ruthlessness. Then something like Skull and Bones, freemasons etc. are I guess more 'tame', but have the same kind of M.O, such as rituals and the way of running it.
Having said that not everyone who is a freemason is evil or bad it usually is kind of like a fraternity would be the best way to describe it. Any society that holds some kind of masonic symbol and acts in secret usually comes from the same branch known as secret societies.
Hope that answers your questions and clears it up a bit, some people might have a different opinion but this is my opinion from what I know.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 06, 2012, 08:59:35 AM
Some relevant quotes:
Quote
What is Freemasonry?
Freemasonry is a secret order that has existed for hundreds, arguably thousands, of years and is now operating in most every country in the world.Masonry promotes itself as a philanthropic club for men of morals and they perpetuate this image through members of the first three “Blue degrees.” 97% of all Masons fall into this category and they are often upstanding citizens, pillars of the community who truly are charitable and benevolent. However, the higher degrees, the inner-circle of World Freemasonry, use the society’s influence to advance an agenda of global control.
Quote
“Although the brotherhood of Masonry appears to be relatively new, it is in reality the oldest continuous network on the planet, dating back many thousands of years, beginning when stones were first dressed. Masonry today has a generally sinister reputation, because the people suspect that this powerful brotherhood has been manipulating and exploiting them. However, the average Mason has never been ‘in the know’ and is, therefore, merely a member of a social club. Nevertheless, the higher-ups have indeed had their hand in creation on this planet on a large scale for a long time … The Masons are there, perpetually hidden behind the scenes, leaving clues to their existence as a brotherhood, some of which are evident yet still not seen.”
Quote
“The conspiracy to create a centralized global fascist state is orchestrated in the five-sense'world' by a secret network known collectively as the Illuminati or 'Illuminated ones'. They manipulate through secret societies and groupings like the Freemasons, Knights of Malta, Knights Templar and the Jesuits. These and others feed carefully chosen recruits into the Illuminati and they are installed in positions of power throughout the world, infesting all colors, races, creeds and countries. It is not that everyone in the secret societies is aware of the plot; the overwhelming majority are not. The Illuminati operate like a cancer to infiltrate and covertly control other organizations. Most Freemasons never progress higher than the bottom three levels of degree, the so-called Blue Degrees and they don't realize what their organization is being used for.”
None of this is 'fiction'....there is a TON of documented evidence that these 'secret societies' exist...and have existed for a very long time. There are also MANY signs/clues BOTH prior to June 25th and after, that Mike was WELL aware of them and may have also been a member (clothing, pins, paintings, symbols, etc). IF there was ever a plan to 'overthrow' the inner-circle (the 'bad' side), the best (and probably only) way to do so would be through infiltration...or, in other words, a sting.
Here's another interesting article highlighting "Forest Lawn" and its Masonic ties http://www.freemasoninformation.com/2009/09/more-than-just-michael-jackson%E2%80%99s-final-resting-place/ (http://www.freemasoninformation.com/2009/09/more-than-just-michael-jackson%E2%80%99s-final-resting-place/)
Quote
...despite all the hoopla of the media circus that will surround Michael Jackson’s final resting place, the cemetery of his choosing is also a quiet memorial to Freemasonry and the brothers who have come this way before.
@Sim & MJonmind...great posts/info :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 06, 2012, 10:08:16 AM
Post by: paula-c on December 06, 2012, 10:30:50 AM
Post by: diggyon on December 06, 2012, 11:13:03 AM
We have gone from investigation to pure, unabashed speculation. Ah well, we have time to kill. Have fun everybody!
I hope you're enjoying your time as we all do!
Post by: BeTheChange on December 06, 2012, 11:14:34 AM
This may not interest some or some might not agree with this line of investigation...and that's great, different/opposing views have greatly helped expand the mind throughout this whole thing...and, as always, everyone is free to skip it if not interested. IMO, we have definite reason to investigate this 'angle' based on many clues from Mike himself pre-June 25th (in his lyrics, movies, interviews, paintings, artwork, etc)...and also after his 'death' (topics brought up by TS, tweets from Paris and other Jacksons, topics raised by LaToya, Jermaine, and others in their books, interviews etc). So, while speculation is inevitable, there is undeniable evidence (NOT speculation) warranting this topic of convo/research as it could very well explain the 'why's' of the hoax.
I'm enjoying it :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 06, 2012, 11:48:04 AM
90+% of what we've done here for 3 1/2 years revolves around speculation.
Isn't that the truth.
A personal aside, 1/1/13 may be less the end of the hoax and more the beginning of getting back to real life. I've likely neglected it for too long. I am grateful to TS_comments for giving us this clear deadline so I will be able to let it go and move on to more positive pursuits.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 06, 2012, 12:10:05 PM
But damn...I want a BAM!!!!! :icon_lol:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Jowayria on December 06, 2012, 12:52:32 PM
Isn't that the truth.
A personal aside, 1/1/13 may be less the end of the hoax and more the beginning of getting back to real life. I've likely neglected it for too long. I am grateful to TS_comments for giving us this clear deadline so I will be able to let it go and move on to more positive pursuits.
The question is : Are we going to be able to move on after this experience ? I bet not !! We certainely are in a great need of a Bam ! But what if it doesn't happen ? what then ? are we going to lose hope ? to ignore all the facts that we are now sure of ? doesn't it sound goofy to do so ?
I think that moving on and letting it all go is just a sort of depriciation of Michael's message ! I know it was hard for all of you guys to gather these facts and connect the dots coz it was hard for me to get my thoughts clear after reading them , I also know that you were called mad or insane for not believing the media when Michael's 'death' was reported coz it happened to me as well ,and I know that you must have sleepless nights and lost hours of sleep investigating the hoax BUT we must keep the faith and never lose hope for we are nothing but a mixture of the two .
love
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 06, 2012, 01:15:13 PM
Post by: jam4truth on December 06, 2012, 02:38:14 PM
Quote
None of this is 'fiction'....there is a TON of documented evidence that these 'secret societies' exist...and have existed for a very long time. There are also MANY signs/clues BOTH prior to June 25th and after, that Mike was WELL aware of them and may have also been a member (clothing, pins, paintings, symbols, etc). IF there was ever a plan to 'overthrow' the inner-circle (the 'bad' side), the best (and probably only) way to do so would be through infiltration...or, in other words, a sting.
That also comes to my mind Mike "was" one of them. For sure some of them bad illuminati guys are in the music industry. So "maybe" they had mind-controlled him and told him how to act and to throw sublimal signs he wasn't really aware of:
(http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/michael-jackson-illuminati-freemason-young-eye-of-horus-satanic-murder-dead-body-death-conspiracy-rihanna-beyonce-lil-wayne-omer-bhatti-prince-paris-blanket-kids-children-5-janet-secret.jpg%3Fw%3D500%26h%3D289)
hmmm...
(http://truthquake.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/michael-jackson-young-illuminati-666-freemason-ok-black-dead-body-death-murder-conspiracy-rihanna-satanic-omer-bhatti-beyonce-lil-wayne-prince-paris-blanket-kids-janet-secret-son-nose-conrad-murray-jay-z-lady-gaga-eye-of-horus.jpg)
ok... that could also mean "ok" in sign language - or 666.
(http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/conrad-murray-freemason.jpg)
Here comes Conrad with a masonic chain. The build was first published around summer 2009 I think. So is this a metapher that Freemasons/Illuminati wanted to kill MJ?
(http://mindcontrolblackassassins.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/mj10.jpg)
(http://mindcontrolblackassassins.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/mjpolitian3.gif)
(http://mindcontrolblackassassins.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/mjmason3.gif%3Fw%3D300%26h%3D298)
Maybe Mike wants to point out this problem.....
Btw .. I was at Cirque du Soleil yesterday. Of course They don't care about us was played - but what really came to my mind was the ceremony at "Man In the Mirror". Hitler, the KKK (inspired by Templars -> degree in some Freemason rites) and JFK (he critizied secret societies) flashed in. Hitler was also rumored to be a member of a secret society (Thule Society).
Anyways a US-Flag with a double-headed Phoenix was carried in. The Scottish Rite also use a double headed bird for their 32rd Degree.
(http://mindcontrolblackassassins.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/mjscottrite.jpg)
Some high degree freemason teachings can lead into this Satanic/Luciferian belief that is contradictory to the Bible and the Christian belief:
"When the mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of LUCIFER are in his hands, and before he may step onward and upward, he must PROVE his ability to properly apply this energy (LUCIFER)"... "Lost Keys of Freemasonry", Page 48, 33rd° Manly P Hall.
From former top USA freemason Pike: "The masonic RELIGION should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the LUCIFERIAN doctrine"... "Yes LUCIFER is God and unfortunately Adonay is also God"... "The true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in LUCIFER, the equal of Adonay; but LUCIFER, the God of light and God of good, is struggling against Adonay, the God of darkness and evil"- 33rd° Albert Pike... from "Instructions to the 23 Supreme Councils of the world", July 14, 1889.
quotes of source: http://www.godlikeproductions.com/bbs/reply.php?messageid=1237428&page=1"e=20160513
There have also been other occult influences in Freemasonry like Aleister Cowly.
Remember 9 of the 10 founder of the United States of America were freemasons that in its organisation goes back to the Great Loges of England / Scottish Rite.
(http://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/dollar_bill_showing_new_world_order.gif)
See date 1776 translated from founding date of the illuminati in Germany. Coincidence??
Btw... the Jewish Rothschild family/banks not only invented the financial/paper money system that we have today they also had the first Federal Reserve Banks - that can probably be controlled by the Elite/lobbyists/shadow groups. Even the Monarchy of England had debts and were dependendant from the Rothschilds.
If you want to get a deeper view into the rabbit hole I heartly recommend the following short documentary:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33FRBdooPk4[/youtube]
Allegedly the had connections to Adam Weisshaupt (founder of the Illuminati) and told them to infiltrate secret societies.
Rothschilds buy into Rockefeller wealth business
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/30/uk-rothschild-rockefeller-idUKBRE84T01O20120530 (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/05/30/uk-rothschild-rockefeller-idUKBRE84T01O20120530)
MONEY RULES THE WORLD.. I guess there's some truth in it.
Michael Jackson exposes Jewish Conspiracy
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV73p_tj2Z0[/youtube]
Is this video authentic?
Also remember what Michael said about a conspiracy against his album in the US:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2n4MCUH2p0[/youtube]
If all of that is the real deal I really hope that Michael got out of their hands and exposes them with the help of the loving GOD.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 06, 2012, 02:50:31 PM
Actually, this is investigation...it's about investigating the possible 'why's' of the hoax. All investigation involves speculation...there'd be no need to investigate anything if all answers were known. 90+% of what we've done here for 3 1/2 years revolves around speculation.
This may not interest some or some might not agree with this line of investigation...and that's great, different/opposing views have greatly helped expand the mind throughout this whole thing...and, as always, everyone is free to skip it if not interested. IMO, we have definite reason to investigate this 'angle' based on many clues from Mike himself pre-June 25th (in his lyrics, movies, interviews, paintings, artwork, etc)...and also after his 'death' (topics brought up by TS, tweets from Paris and other Jacksons, topics raised by LaToya, Jermaine, and others in their books, interviews etc). So, while speculation is inevitable, there is undeniable evidence (NOT speculation) warranting this topic of convo/research as it could very well explain the 'why's' of the hoax.
I'm enjoying it :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
+1
Post by: SimPattyK on December 06, 2012, 02:54:05 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on December 06, 2012, 03:14:10 PM
:moonwalk_: B A M in December 2012 !
OR ......... aprox. 26 days (?) left till January 1st 2013
http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=41245
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/007fef.jpg)
Post by: SimPattyK on December 06, 2012, 03:37:38 PM
Speaking of MJ's time of "death" 12:21 ...I found this EERIE thing about Lady Diana's time of death:
another interesting connection... 12:21 pm (MJ) versus 12:23 am (Diana) ---> such close fatal hours!
Princess Diana Murder - MI5 Agent exposes truth on Sky News - Assassination or accident??? -
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwmjXMVZ_Yk&feature=related[/youtube]
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/mjdiana122.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/009.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/008glg.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/010.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/003ere.jpg)
Other montages on the subject of ~ MJ exposing the Illuminati ~
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/002rjr.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/005brb.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/006lll.jpg)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/004grg.jpg)
Post by: wishingstar on December 06, 2012, 03:45:44 PM
Actually, this is investigation...it's about investigating the possible 'why's' of the hoax. All investigation involves speculation...there'd be no need to investigate anything if all answers were known. 90+% of what we've done here for 3 1/2 years revolves around speculation.
This may not interest some or some might not agree with this line of investigation...and that's great, different/opposing views have greatly helped expand the mind throughout this whole thing...and, as always, everyone is free to skip it if not interested. IMO, we have definite reason to investigate this 'angle' based on many clues from Mike himself pre-June 25th (in his lyrics, movies, interviews, paintings, artwork, etc)...and also after his 'death' (topics brought up by TS, tweets from Paris and other Jacksons, topics raised by LaToya, Jermaine, and others in their books, interviews etc). So, while speculation is inevitable, there is undeniable evidence (NOT speculation) warranting this topic of convo/research as it could very well explain the 'why's' of the hoax.
I'm enjoying it :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
+1
Two hugs......one for each of you! Love your posts here! Thank you!
:bearhug: :bearhug:
PS>Just caught up with you Sim....your last post here too :bowdown:
Unbelievable! (ugh, I am so embarrassed though...I spelled praying/prayers wrong! :icon_redface:) Sorry World......
Post by: Billie J on December 06, 2012, 04:09:52 PM
If Michael knew why the h*** did he not speak up,he could have saved 1344 people, and why did Mj have a concert the day before 9/11 if he knew.
It scares me that some of you believe this. :over-react-smiley:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 06, 2012, 04:26:59 PM
SO Michael Jackson knew about 9/11 about 4 years BEFORE 9/11 happened??? *BullShit* and He tried to tell us by the blood on the dance floor cd cover??:icon_eek:
If Michael knew why the h*** did he not speak up,he could have saved 1344 people, and why did Mj have a concert the day before 9/11 if he knew.
Yeah , go figure this:
The world would have totally believed that the US will collapse the twins if Michael Jackson, also known as "WACKO JACKO", "the child molester", had come out in public and said so!
They would have mocked and ridiculed him even more so! probably they would have attempted to kill him faster and wouldn't have wasted time to frame him with the 2nd trial!
NobodY would have believed Michael nor anyone else who had dared to come out publicly and say it out loud! Look what happened to Bill Cooper and so many others who have said it way before in the 90's or 80s!? They all "conveniently" died!!
All that Michael could have done in order to warn us without risking his life was exactly what he did: he SUBTLY inserted clues into his ART and ultimately he "died" for the truth to come out!
It scares me that some of you believe this. :over-react-smiley:It scares me that some of you refuse to see the obvious :over-react-smiley:
Post by: wishingstar on December 06, 2012, 04:47:01 PM
I remember talking about it, but don't remember the outcome.....
Wonder what Murdoch has been up to.....things have been very quiet since his phone problems......
Just wondering.....
LOVE
Post by: SimPattyK on December 06, 2012, 04:53:22 PM
[...]Unless MJ is dead and TS is faking being a Illuminatist, then the FBI are doing this operation from a subsection of their organization, perhaps independent from the head. TS is clearly saying 911 was an inside job, and the FBI are clearly saying it was foreign terrorists, and trying to quash all truth about it—two opposite viewpoints. Elvis was clearly against corrupt government and dishonest people, yet he became a Federal agent against drugs, and perhaps more. I really believe that from the midst of evil, there can be good emerge that will contribute towards its demise or at least weakening. If God is the writer of history, how do we know that he is not sowing some kind of discord amongst staff or protection for FBI agents working with MJ on the hoax and Murray trial. Could there be something like Faction A and B in the FBI all this time carefully co-existing? Could the FBI be so focused on their sting on the say Pharmaceutical companies drugging the stars or whatever, that they don’t care what artistic thing MJ does with his ‘death’?Great points @MjonMind! :th_bravo:
Sim, great pics on MJ and the Kennedys, and yes they could have told him much inside top secret information, as well as Princess Diana. In the video I posted, the former FBI chief said the 911 planning was coming from Great Britain. Is the US really as independent from them and their Queen, as they think they are? It’s bankers/Bilderbergers/etc that pull the presidential puppet strings. If JFK was really trying to expose the Illuminati and the way bankers would rob Americans blind by the Federal Reserve, there may be many others that stay hidden, quietly making moves.Again, I fully agree with you !! :icon_e_wink:
I also think a lot of the "world strings" are [secretly] being pulled from LONDON!
[...]Two hugs......one for each of you! Love your posts here! Thank you! :bearhug: :bearhug:HUGS back :bearhug:
PS>Just caught up with you Sim....your last post here too :bowdown:
Unbelievable! (ugh, I am so embarrassed though...I spelled praying/prayers wrong! :icon_redface:) Sorry World......
...and don't worry about the spelling! lol
I also think that Murray-pic is shopped. maybe on purpose to make us pay more attention to the NWO/Illuminati aspect in the hoax.
Post by: wishingstar on December 06, 2012, 04:56:11 PM
Hugs!
LOVE
Post by: MJonmind on December 06, 2012, 05:01:44 PM
BTC
Quote
None of this is 'fiction'....there is a TON of documented evidence that these 'secret societies' exist...and have existed for a very long time. There are also MANY signs/clues BOTH prior to June 25th and after, that Mike was WELL aware of them and may have also been a member (clothing, pins, paintings, symbols, etc). IF there was ever a plan to 'overthrow' the inner-circle (the 'bad' side), the best (and probably only) way to do so would be through infiltration...or, in other words, a sting.
It also could easily be argued that Jesus was a much earlier Mason. Throughout his teaching, there is one teaching for the masses, and a withheld teaching just for the ‘initiates’ or 12 disciples. There has always been levels, and coded messages and numerology. Quote:
http://www.masoncode.com/Jesus%20Christ%20Master%20Mason.htm
Quote
In early Christianity there were two parts of the Church, the exoteric Church and the esoteric Church (or Gnostic Church). The former was open to everyone, the latter was a form of mystery religion with secret rites and initiation ceremonies.
In that same sense here on the forum, TS is the ‘master’ teacher and we are the initiates, learning things hidden from the masses and even the vast majority of MJ fans.
There is another reason WHY there is numerology behind TPTB (including Illuminati, FreeMasons, other secret societies, most world religions), because there is one God behind it all. He has created ALL things, whether evil or good. There are many Scripture verses that prove this. He has written it all in the stars seen from earth, guided the thoughts/minds of his chosen—good or evil to fulfill his purposes—fulfill His story-line—HISstory.
Quote
But damn...I want a BAM!!!!!
That has a nice ring to it! That could be our mantra!
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 06, 2012, 05:06:52 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on December 06, 2012, 05:07:38 PM
Who would have thought about Jesus from that side!? A Mason? looll :icon_lol:
I loved the part about TS and us being his initiates! i really DO feel like that! loll In that sense, then I love being a MASON lmao :icon_lol: :suspect: :suspect: :icon_lol:
@sweetsunsetwithMJ: :icon_e_wink: :icon_e_wink:
lmao :icon_lol: :icon_lol:Quote from: BTCBut damn...I want a BAM!!!!!That has a nice ring to it! That could be our mantra!
Post by: use_your_illusion on December 06, 2012, 06:42:47 PM
And of course all this is speculation, what else do you expect it to be, the truth? You're kidding yourself. Stop standing in shallow water and try walking into the deep end, you might be surprised by what you find. Before this hoax I don't think anyone would think that the Pepsi incident could have been a hoax and now some of you are considering it. If you don't allow yourself to be open minded you're not going to get anywhere.
If the opinions of others scare you so much maybe you should just shut your eyes and wait for the ride to be over, it might give you some peace of mind.
Edit: I think what sweetsunsetwithMJ said summed it up well...'so many coincidences shouldn't be ignored'.
Post by: Andrea on December 06, 2012, 07:22:22 PM
Quote
ZSA ZSA GABOR
Back to the ER
... But I Ain't Dead! (http://www.tmz.com/2012/12/06/zsa-zsa-gabor-hospitalized-surgery-feeding-tube/)
12/6/2012 3:00 PM PST BY TMZ STAFF
Zsa Zsa Gabor is ALIVE and kickin' (OK, not exactly kickin' 'cause she only has 1-and-a-half legs) but she's ALIVE ... despite another major medical scare this week.
TMZ spoke with Zsa Zsa's hubby ... the von and only Prince von Anhalt ... who tells us ZZG was rushed to UCLA medical center Wednesday morning after developing a nasty infection around her feeding tube.
We're told the 95-year-old Hollywood icon underwent surgery to treat the infection. She's still in the hospital so doctors can closely monitor her recovery.
When asked how he was handling the situation, Prince couldn't have been more clear -- "This really f**ked up our Christmas."
Back Ain't Dead...BAD. Back to the ER. ALIVE ALIVE UCLA. (Hmmm!) I suppose that's what we're getting from TMZ for December 6th. Happy 1260 days + 1 day of simmering everyone!
Poor Zsa Zsa, it's so sad when people get really old and their body starts to fail them, sometimes quite rapidly. It's happening with both of my grandmothers right now. It breaks my heart.
Post by: paula-c on December 06, 2012, 08:10:56 PM
Quote
(OK, not exactly kickin' 'cause she only has 1-and-a-half legs)
Sometimes I don't like how TMZ drafting their " news ", she is an elderly woman and sick ::)
There are other ways of saying things. i i'm sorry of your grandmothers Andrea
Post by: Adi on December 06, 2012, 08:42:38 PM
Speaking of ".'so many coincidences shouldn't be ignored'."QuoteZSA ZSA GABOR
Back to the ER
... But I Ain't Dead! (http://www.tmz.com/2012/12/06/zsa-zsa-gabor-hospitalized-surgery-feeding-tube/)
12/6/2012 3:00 PM PST BY TMZ STAFF
Zsa Zsa Gabor is ALIVE and kickin' (OK, not exactly kickin' 'cause she only has 1-and-a-half legs) but she's ALIVE ... despite another major medical scare this week.
TMZ spoke with Zsa Zsa's hubby ... the von and only Prince von Anhalt ... who tells us ZZG was rushed to UCLA medical center Wednesday morning after developing a nasty infection around her feeding tube.
We're told the 95-year-old Hollywood icon underwent surgery to treat the infection. She's still in the hospital so doctors can closely monitor her recovery.
When asked how he was handling the situation, Prince couldn't have been more clear -- "This really f**ked up our Christmas."
Back Ain't Dead...BAD. Back to the ER. ALIVE ALIVE UCLA. (Hmmm!) I suppose that's what we're getting from TMZ for December 6th. Happy 1260 days + 1 day of simmering everyone!
Poor Zsa Zsa, it's so sad when people get really old and their body starts to fail them, sometimes quite rapidly. It's happening with both of my grandmothers right now. It breaks my heart.
I saw that TMZ story earlier too Andrea and went :suspect:
Yep - seems not much at action at all on 1260 +1 day of simmering.....
@UYI - great post :icon_albino:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 06, 2012, 08:53:24 PM
Speaking of ".'so many coincidences shouldn't be ignored'."OMG! I love this!! :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce:QuoteZSA ZSA GABOR
Back to the ER
... But I Ain't Dead! (http://www.tmz.com/2012/12/06/zsa-zsa-gabor-hospitalized-surgery-feeding-tube/)
12/6/2012 3:00 PM PST BY TMZ STAFF
Zsa Zsa Gabor is ALIVE and kickin' (OK, not exactly kickin' 'cause she only has 1-and-a-half legs) but she's ALIVE ... despite another major medical scare this week.
TMZ spoke with Zsa Zsa's hubby ... the von and only Prince von Anhalt ... who tells us ZZG was rushed to UCLA medical center Wednesday morning after developing a nasty infection around her feeding tube.
We're told the 95-year-old Hollywood icon underwent surgery to treat the infection. She's still in the hospital so doctors can closely monitor her recovery.
When asked how he was handling the situation, Prince couldn't have been more clear -- "This really f**ked up our Christmas."
Back Ain't Dead...BAD. Back to the ER. ALIVE ALIVE UCLA. (Hmmm!) I suppose that's what we're getting from TMZ for December 6th. Happy 1260 days + 1 day of simmering everyone!
@UYI - great post :icon_albino:I agree!!
Post by: MJonmind on December 06, 2012, 09:16:48 PM
http://www.tmz.com/2012/05/28/zsa-zsa-gabor-house-foreclosure/
Sim, I forgot to add, thanks for all your excellent collections of pics with comments on the Secret Societies theme! You make a huge contribution by doing this, and on other MJ related themes as well. It is an important niche that no one else has filled, so good on you!
Bec, I have a question about this old email to News of the World from Study, Jesse and Lisa. It's somehow in the reverse order, right-- the person's name is below their post? Well, Study/TS is talking just like Back here in lingo. Jesse(Elvis) is giving 2 messages in what he is saying. He is telling who has returned and who Back's identity is. 'Guess who is Back', in other words, 'Back is S.T.U.D.Y'. Wouldn't that be an indicator that TS = Back/Front--one person? How do you read it?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/TStudyback.jpg)
Post by: voiceforthesilent on December 06, 2012, 09:38:47 PM
I also am enjoying the walk down memory lane - as we've been told over and over, we need to look back in order to understand. Hmmm - MJonmind, I forgot about those comments.
I know this is off topic but most of us are moving between two threads. Mods can move this if they want - just didn't know where to put it. It's just something I haven't noticed before.
I was watching a clip on youtube of MJ's personal chef Douglas B. Jones. He shared some personal stories about Michael and the kids. Something that interested me is that he used hoaxy type words and comments. For instance the type of music that played in the house was music by Dionne Warwick, or instrumentals or soundtracks of movies, like the "Magnificant 7". (4:27 in the video).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eMN2GFcfEA&feature=g-high-rec
Anyway, I did a quick search on this guy and found out that he took acting lessons.
About the Author
Douglas Jones has been a chef for over twenty-five years, working for 4 and 5 star hotels and restaurants. He received his culinary training in his hometown of Cincinnati, Ohio, while he was still in high school at Hughes high in Clifton. He moved to New York in 1977, and two days after arriving, he began his culinary career. He was hired at the waldorf Astoria Hotel and worked there from 1977 to 1979. He continued building his culinary background by accepting a culinary position at the Plaza Hotel in manhattan. While living in New York, he began studying acting at the herbert bergolf Studio Greenich Village from 1979 to 1981. He then relocated to Los Angeles, CA to further pursue his culinary and acting careers. He widened his culinary experiences in Los Angeles by working at the Beverly Hills Hotel, The Hotel Bel Air, and The Westin Bonaventure Hotel. If he has accomplished anything by being a chef of what ever level over the years, it has been a career of longevity along with the blood, sweat, and the tears, the good, the bad, and the ugly that is a reality of any demanding profession in life.
http://www.1888pressrelease.com/excite-and-delight-your-palate-chef-douglas-jones-presents-h-pr-78305.html
Post by: bec on December 06, 2012, 10:41:42 PM
SO Michael Jackson knew about 9/11 about 4 years BEFORE 9/11 happened??? *BullShit* and He tried to tell us by the blood on the dance floor cd cover??:icon_eek:
If Michael knew why the h*** did he not speak up,he could have saved 1344 people, and why did Mj have a concert the day before 9/11 if he knew.
Yeah , go figure this:
The world would have totally believed that the US will collapse the twins if Michael Jackson, also known as "WACKO JACKO", "the child molester", had come out in public and said so!
They would have mocked and ridiculed him even more so! probably they would have attempted to kill him faster and wouldn't have wasted time to frame him with the 2nd trial!
NobodY would have believed Michael nor anyone else who had dared to come out publicly and say it out loud! Look what happened to Bill Cooper and so many others who have said it way before in the 90's or 80s!? They all "conveniently" died!!
All that Michael could have done in order to warn us without risking his life was exactly what he did: he SUBTLY inserted clues into his ART and ultimately he "died" for the truth to come out!It scares me that some of you believe this. :over-react-smiley:It scares me that some of you refuse to see the obvious :over-react-smiley:
Yeah go figure this. MJ knows about this horror before it happens yet says nothing because he will be mocked and ridiculed and even more pressure will be put on him?
I don't think so. Your painting MJ as a spineless, selfish coward and I don't buy that.
Sorry, but that's how I see it.
Btw, how does the DWD patient fit into all of this or have you all completely abandoned that theory in favor of Illuminati paranoia land?
Post by: GINAFELICIA on December 07, 2012, 12:50:14 AM
Post by: diggyon on December 07, 2012, 01:16:32 AM
Does anyone know why Michael used to wear a red bracelet?
(http://ww
w.webstore.com/cache/cache_500_1_1_img_7767977_57226392e110cb5f81747e717c60fea0jpg.gif)
Isn't that a sign of Freemasonary? I watched lately a video on youtube with pictures of celebrities who are part of this Illuminati thing and all of them were wearing a red bracelet too. That picture I posted was shown. Now I'm totally confused!!
(http://www.mjinnocencebracelets.com/BBmichael-jackson-pamela-anderson.jpg)
Post by: emulik on December 07, 2012, 02:48:55 AM
I have a small question.....lot of ordinary and famous people are wearing some kind of red braceled, it is believed to be protection from evil. Also some mothers put some red ribbon/bracelet on kids wrist to protect them.
Does anyone know why Michael used to wear a red bracelet?
(http://ww
w.webstore.com/cache/cache_500_1_1_img_7767977_57226392e110cb5f81747e717c60fea0jpg.gif)
Isn't that a sign of Freemasonary? I watched lately a video on youtube with pictures of celebrities who are part of this Illuminati thing and all of them were wearing a red bracelet too. That picture I posted was shown. Now I'm totally confused!!
(http://www.mjinnocencebracelets.com/BBmichael-jackson-pamela-anderson.jpg)
I wear one, too :icon_razz:
Post by: MJonmind on December 07, 2012, 03:20:44 AM
Quote
Btw, how does the DWD patient fit into all of this or have you all completely abandoned that theory in favor of Illuminati paranoia land?on Dec 5
Quote
Ok so we lack proof of an FBI sting so the alternative is MJ is taking down the Illuminati and to do so he needed to break the law and use a real dead person?I lean towards "a few key people" in the FBI who want justice, helping MJ. But if not, and the FBI/Illuminati/TPTB are trying to take MJ out, then maybe MJ put a DWD in to fool them into thinking Murray took him out, and TS is mocking them by saying they're involved in the hoax (that's if they're reading here). MJ had Marlon wearing the hat, and Brian Oxman asking for the MJ files. :icon_e_confused: Sorry if it sounds lame.
As in, how'd we get from there to here? The FBI needed to be involved to make the DWD legal for "use" in the hoax, give clearance because of the sting operation. If the FBI isn't helping MJ but rather part of Illuminati and trying to take Michael out, where does the DWD patient come in?
For 2 equally powerful sides to take on each other--MJ and TPTB, (MJ is of love and freedom, and the other of slavery & control) they must:
--Be very intelligent, shrewd and well-read/aware of everything going on past/present around the world.
--Each have money and loyal manpower to fund and carry out whatever.
--Be intimidating, subtle or hidden, with some half-truths to keep the other side confused, if they go public.
--Each infiltrate the other to gain secret information without being detected.
--Ask for supernatural power (good or evil) to help.
Doesn't this sound like what MJ, Front, and TS have done for a very long time? Are we caught in the midst of it? Michael and the dragon...
Post by: marumjj on December 07, 2012, 04:07:23 AM
SO Michael Jackson knew about 9/11 about 4 years BEFORE 9/11 happened??? *BullShit* and He tried to tell us by the blood on the dance floor cd cover??:icon_eek:
If Michael knew why the h*** did he not speak up,he could have saved 1344 people, and why did Mj have a concert the day before 9/11 if he knew.
Yeah , go figure this:
The world would have totally believed that the US will collapse the twins if Michael Jackson, also known as "WACKO JACKO", "the child molester", had come out in public and said so!
They would have mocked and ridiculed him even more so! probably they would have attempted to kill him faster and wouldn't have wasted time to frame him with the 2nd trial!
NobodY would have believed Michael nor anyone else who had dared to come out publicly and say it out loud! Look what happened to Bill Cooper and so many others who have said it way before in the 90's or 80s!? They all "conveniently" died!!
All that Michael could have done in order to warn us without risking his life was exactly what he did: he SUBTLY inserted clues into his ART and ultimately he "died" for the truth to come out!It scares me that some of you believe this. :over-react-smiley:It scares me that some of you refuse to see the obvious :over-react-smiley:
Wow! I had a great read from my last entry, but this in particular caught my attention, if MJ knew what was going to happen and if not, just to avoid being exposed to ridicule or derision, I think not. I think MJ can not alone, against such opponents. That ubieramos made us with that information? just for a minute, I put on his shoes, and I think in that extreme situation, really scary. Course is only conjecture, but the FBI would not have protected? or maybe "this" is one of the reasons why he faked his death, and let FBI or whoever, do its job. Much can theorize and discuss, but I fear that we are limited in knowledge, and we only have access to what "they" allow us. TS put a deadline 01/01/2013. Almost there and if it does not really change anything about the Illuminati, NWO, say some, but of course this is classified information and therefore beyond our knowledge. I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and input, I love you all.
:bearhug:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 04:30:37 AM
@Bec: I think you misinterpreted a lot my comment. Nothing of what I said in my comment implies that Michael was a coward! What I said hinted to his intelligent precaution of not acting foolishly and exposing himself to an OBVIOUS unnecessary life threatening-danger!
Rather he acted as a calculated, clever man. He planned something bigger than ever to help expose those criminals!
And I also said that he didn't just sat on that top secret info without doing anything "like a coward"! He planted clues all over his ART. Michael has always been giving the world vital information hidden/masked in his work (lyrics, videos, album covers, clothing designs, etc... which I presented in my montages, too), not to mention he often hinted at "them" in many of his interviews.
BUT that was all he could have done at that time, in those circumstances! when his reputation/credibility had been damaged anyway by "them" through the tabloid media! and the false accusations!
And I also mentioned the fact that he had secretly planned the hoax (with one of the main purposes: exposing the Illuminati and their crimes), is another proof he just didn't sit on that info selfishly without warning anyone!
I just don't understand why anyone could interpret my comment other than what I explained here above ^^ :icon_rolleyes:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 05:07:31 AM
Quote from: Bec
Btw, how does the DWD patient fit into all of this or have you all completely abandoned that theory in favor of Illuminati paranoia land?:icon_eek:
So we're "hysterical"(our happy reactions at Front's mentioning the BAM party, few weeks ago) and now "paranoid".
With all due respect Bec, I don't recall any member calling you any names because of your opinions/reactions.
You may be passing through a difficult period of time, you may be angry /dissatisfied with TS' answers and with the way things are right now in the hoax. I think anybody can understand and tolerate that.
But you have no right to disrespect and offend people because of their beliefs/opinions/theories.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 07, 2012, 05:52:57 AM
Whether Mike had advance knowledge of 9/11 is probably not something we can prove concretely with the info we have...however, it is interesting that his connection with/to 9/11 made 'news' a few times after his 'death' (i.e. our attention was purposely drawn to the connection). I wouldn't be surprised to find out he did know or suspect 'something'....keeping in mind there is a big difference between knowing exactly what was going to take place and suspecting something in the works based on 'rumors' or inside info he may have had access to. In fact, he wouldn't have been the only one who had advance knowledge (and years in advance, not days, weeks or months). For starters, 9/11 (no matter who was behind it) was years in the planning....you don't just decide to fly major aircraft into tall buildings overnight, nor do you only need a few weeks to put together the resources to do so. There is a TON of evidence pointing to 9/11 being an inside job....so people in the US govt knew about it and did 'nothing' (sure, some were on the 'bad' side but I'm pretty sure some 'good' people knew about it too and just didn't have the power to do anything and/or were 'silenced').
Quote
The Chicago Sun-Times reported that:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theories)
The FBI had advance indications of plans to hijack U.S. airliners and use them as weapons, but neither acted on them nor distributed the intelligence to local police agencies. From the moment of the September 11 attacks, high-ranking federal officials insisted that the terrorists’ method of operation surprised them. Many stick to that story. Actually, elements of the hijacking plan were known to the FBI as early as 1995 and, if coupled with current information, might have uncovered the plot.”
This 'Illuminati Card Game' came out in 1995, with many interesting cards...here's two of them:
(http://www.illuminatiagenda.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/illuminati-card-game-twin-towers-pentagon.jpg)
Again, obviously some people somewhere had advance knowledge of 9/11....unless they just 'coincidentally' threw these cards in (they would also have coincidentally known about the oil spill too, though (among other things), since that's featured on another card). If those are 'coincidences', then perhaps all these instances where either 9/11 or the towers burning in movies PRIOR to 9/11 are as well:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1aifunETmU[/youtube]
Some are suggesting that if Mike knew, he would've gone public with it. Again, no one can say with 100% certainty that he did know or suspect (although there are a few 'clues' pointing to this)....and no one can prove he didn't. I do think it's interesting, though, how people still assume to 'know' what Mike would or wouldn't have done in any given situation (especially when the full details aren't known). I also find it interesting that so many claim to be 'awake' yet don't stop to ask themselves HOW he would've/could've told people IF he knew or suspected anything about 9/11. Should he have called CNN up? Or how about Fox news? Who controls everything we see and hear? His best (and probably only) way would've been during a performance in front of thousands of people. It is interesting that he just so happened to give a concert the day before in NY. So, if he knew something, he could've just warned people then right? Possibly....but the people behind 9/11 aren't bullies in a schoolyard....they are capable and willing to kill thousands without hesitation. Being 'threatened' over a whole bunch of things can go a long way in keeping people from talking. Many said Mike 'looked off' that night while performing....could just be another coincidence. Also, it's probably just another coincidence that he stopped touring in 1997.
IF Mike knew or suspected anything about 9/11...I would bet that he did all he could to try to warn people, or at least to let 'them' know that he sees through their 'games' (it wouldn't be the first time he's done either). IF this is the case...the thought of him reading some comments here make me wince....they are like a slap in his face.
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."
-- Albert Einstein
I'd rather be way off base in investigating something....than to be ignorant.
@Sim, MJonmind, UYI & Jam4truth...brilliant posts all around :icon_razz:
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 06:05:45 AM
I'd rather be way off base in investigating something....than to be ignorant.+1
Great post @BTC!
This video is with a lady (former CIA agent) who tells in great detail what happened to her because she had found out about the attacks way before they happened and she did not want to shut up then! She tells the ordeals she went through!
I just refuse to imagine what would have happened to Michael if he had dared to be more explicit about what he knew back then!! if these criminals treated this lady (one of them!!) like that! it' incredible how she escaped though! She must still have 'them" with something, otherwise i can't explain why she's still alive even after everything she testified!
Ohh she also talks about Lady Diana and her "accident"!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGI4jfwOmOk&list=PLJLDoOHpxPxDsXDQPUKOVD5k56SkiEqbh[/youtube]
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 07, 2012, 06:10:58 AM
Post by: use_your_illusion on December 07, 2012, 07:06:05 AM
It baffles me to see the lack of consistency on this forum. Although I am all for different opinions and discussions of different sides and ideas, some of the thinking that is put out on here is completely lopsided.
Just by being on here is a claim that we are open minded yet some of us ridicule others for their open-mindedness on a particular subject. People complain about being mistreated and ridiculed by unbelievers because you believe MJ is alive, yet you do the very same thing you are against. Tell me what is wrong with this picture? It surprises me to see the constant contradiction and hypocrisy. Yeah sure have your opinion but a little respect would be of benefit. I don't care what anyone's opinion is, the only problem I have with an opinion is where that comment is coming from.
I mean how did some people make it this far on a board like this, it is as open minded as you can get. I mean we've heard it all before with the unbelievers ridiculing our theories so it gets kinda old when forum members do it to, if we didn't get so much already, I mean really.
The way I see it is that the root of the problem is what people think of MJ. You see it with unbelievers, they despise the idea that MJ faked his death, it's almost like poison in their mouth every time you speak of it. And yet on top of that their only reasons are...'because he would do that to his fans', 'because he wouldn't do that to his children' etc. Same here, yeah MJ might have know the main details of 9/11 or he might only know some of it or maybe even none of it, but what is stopping some people to explore those option, is it your preconceived notion of MJ?...like BTC said (great post by the way, in fact a lot of great posts) 'I'd rather be way off base in investigating something....than to be ignorant.'
The fact of the matter is, I get the feeling (and I could be way off) is that some people see MJ as the pure/innocent and perfect human being in every way. Forget what you think you knew or thought you knew, take in what you now should know and make room to discover the man you never knew. Because I have some breaking news for you...no one ever really knew the man.
Finally I will say this, believe what you want to believe, have your say but also have some manners so as to not compromise or forfeit the respect that other members give to you. Nothing is more destructive to morale than lack of respect.
That is all I will say on the matter.
Post by: bugsy on December 07, 2012, 07:09:51 AM
I have a small question.....
Does anyone know why Michael used to wear a red bracelet?
(http://ww
w.webstore.com/cache/cache_500_1_1_img_7767977_57226392e110cb5f81747e717c60fea0jpg.gif)
Isn't that a sign of Freemasonary? I watched lately a video on youtube with pictures of celebrities who are part of this Illuminati thing and all of them were wearing a red bracelet too. That picture I posted was shown. Now I'm totally confused!!
(http://www.mjinnocencebracelets.com/BBmichael-jackson-pamela-anderson.jpg)
Red is the colour that energized, I think it's just his switch from wearing the red shirt... that's what i read anyways just wish i could find the article about it now
oh and good videos about "they"
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2cNG79r8Ig&feature=BFa&list=PL0A93790146D79930[/youtube]
Post by: diggyon on December 07, 2012, 07:24:31 AM
It seems like it is a kabbalah bracelet. You wear a ring string around your left wrist as a protection of evil. I also wear one. :icon_e_smile:??? ??? ??? ???
I thought kabbalah was evil!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Jos on December 07, 2012, 07:28:22 AM
From the day I registered on this forum to now, I never get into any of this stuff, I usually let things just go by because its easy to say something on the internet when you're not directly talking to the person face to face, which makes it common for arguments and disagreements to go back and forth and that's not the way I do things.
It baffles me to see the lack of consistency on this forum. Although I am all for different opinions and discussions of different sides and ideas, some of the thinking that is put out on here is completely lopsided.
Just by being on here is a claim that we are open minded yet some of us ridicule others for their open-mindedness on a particular subject. People complain about being mistreated and ridiculed by unbelievers because you believe MJ is alive, yet you do the very same thing you are against. Tell me what is wrong with this picture? It surprises me to see the constant contradiction and hypocrisy. Yeah sure have your opinion but a little respect would be of benefit. I don't care what anyone's opinion is, the only problem I have with an opinion is where that comment is coming from.
I mean how did some people make it this far on a board like this, it is as open minded as you can get. I mean we've heard it all before with the unbelievers ridiculing our theories so it gets kinda old when forum members do it to, if we didn't get so much already, I mean really.
The way I see it is that the root of the problem is what people think of MJ. You see it with unbelievers, they despise the idea that MJ faked his death, it's almost like poison in their mouth every time you speak of it. And yet on top of that their only reasons are...'because he would do that to his fans', 'because he wouldn't do that to his children' etc. Same here, yeah MJ might have know the main details of 9/11 or he might only know some of it or maybe even none of it, but what is stopping some people to explore that option, is it your preconceived notion of MJ?...like BTC said (great post by the way, in fact a lot of great posts) 'I'd rather be way off base in investigating something....than to be ignorant.'
The fact of the matter is, I get the feeling (and I could be way off) is that some people see MJ as the pure/innocent and perfect human being in every way. Forget what you think you knew or thought you knew, take in what you now should know and make room to discover the man you never knew. Because I have some breaking news for you...no one ever really knew the man.
Finally I will say this, believe what you want to believe, have your say but also have some manners so as to not compromise or forfeit the respect that other members give to you. Nothing is more destructive to morale than lack of respect.
That is all I will say on the matter.
:th_bravo:
Post by: wishingstar on December 07, 2012, 07:50:15 AM
From the day I registered on this forum to now, I never get into any of this stuff, I usually let things just go by because its easy to say something on the internet when you're not directly talking to the person face to face, which makes it common for arguments and disagreements to go back and forth and that's not the way I do things.
It baffles me to see the lack of consistency on this forum. Although I am all for different opinions and discussions of different sides and ideas, some of the thinking that is put out on here is completely lopsided.
Just by being on here is a claim that we are open minded yet some of us ridicule others for their open-mindedness on a particular subject. People complain about being mistreated and ridiculed by unbelievers because you believe MJ is alive, yet you do the very same thing you are against. Tell me what is wrong with this picture? It surprises me to see the constant contradiction and hypocrisy. Yeah sure have your opinion but a little respect would be of benefit. I don't care what anyone's opinion is, the only problem I have with an opinion is where that comment is coming from.
I mean how did some people make it this far on a board like this, it is as open minded as you can get. I mean we've heard it all before with the unbelievers ridiculing our theories so it gets kinda old when forum members do it to, if we didn't get so much already, I mean really.
The way I see it is that the root of the problem is what people think of MJ. You see it with unbelievers, they despise the idea that MJ faked his death, it's almost like poison in their mouth every time you speak of it. And yet on top of that their only reasons are...'because he would do that to his fans', 'because he wouldn't do that to his children' etc. Same here, yeah MJ might have know the main details of 9/11 or he might only know some of it or maybe even none of it, but what is stopping some people to explore that option, is it your preconceived notion of MJ?...like BTC said (great post by the way, in fact a lot of great posts) 'I'd rather be way off base in investigating something....than to be ignorant.'
The fact of the matter is, I get the feeling (and I could be way off) is that some people see MJ as the pure/innocent and perfect human being in every way. Forget what you think you knew or thought you knew, take in what you now should know and make room to discover the man you never knew. Because I have some breaking news for you...no one ever really knew the man.
Finally I will say this, believe what you want to believe, have your say but also have some manners so as to not compromise or forfeit the respect that other members give to you. Nothing is more destructive to morale than lack of respect.
That is all I will say on the matter.
:th_bravo:
UYI.......
:beerchug: cheers for your words!
:woohoo2: woohoo for your honesty!
:bearhug: hugs for your LOVE!
:smiley_abuv: respect to you always!
Thank you!
LOVE
Post by: Adi on December 07, 2012, 07:54:00 AM
It seems who/what went to UCLA is never going to be agreed upon as a "collective".....so the discussion moved on.
I know I am not paranoid (or hysterical) and that is all that matters. Others can think and say what they want....in the end, they own it, not me.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 07, 2012, 08:02:53 AM
From the day I registered on this forum to now, I never got into any of this stuff, I usually let things just go by because its easy to say something on the internet when you're not directly talking to the person face to face, which makes it common for arguments and disagreements to go back and forth and that's not the way I do things.
It baffles me to see the lack of consistency on this forum. Although I am all for different opinions and discussions of different sides and ideas, some of the thinking that is put out on here is completely lopsided.
Just by being on here is a claim that we are open minded yet some of us ridicule others for their open-mindedness on a particular subject. People complain about being mistreated and ridiculed by unbelievers because you believe MJ is alive, yet you do the very same thing you are against. Tell me what is wrong with this picture? It surprises me to see the constant contradiction and hypocrisy. Yeah sure have your opinion but a little respect would be of benefit. I don't care what anyone's opinion is, the only problem I have with an opinion is where that comment is coming from.
I mean how did some people make it this far on a board like this, it is as open minded as you can get. I mean we've heard it all before with the unbelievers ridiculing our theories so it gets kinda old when forum members do it to, if we didn't get so much already, I mean really.
The way I see it is that the root of the problem is what people think of MJ. You see it with unbelievers, they despise the idea that MJ faked his death, it's almost like poison in their mouth every time you speak of it. And yet on top of that their only reasons are...'because he would do that to his fans', 'because he wouldn't do that to his children' etc. Same here, yeah MJ might have know the main details of 9/11 or he might only know some of it or maybe even none of it, but what is stopping some people to explore those option, is it your preconceived notion of MJ?...like BTC said (great post by the way, in fact a lot of great posts) 'I'd rather be way off base in investigating something....than to be ignorant.'
The fact of the matter is, I get the feeling (and I could be way off) is that some people see MJ as the pure/innocent and perfect human being in every way. Forget what you think you knew or thought you knew, take in what you now should know and make room to discover the man you never knew. Because I have some breaking news for you...no one ever really knew the man.
Finally I will say this, believe what you want to believe, have your say but also have some manners so as to not compromise or forfeit the respect that other members give to you. Nothing is more destructive to morale than lack of respect.
That is all I will say on the matter.
(http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/citizen_cane.gif)
(Love that gif haha)
Excellent post UYI...although I truly dislike seeing members feeling this way, I completely understand why several are. I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt....but that 'benefit' starts to dwindle as the 'doubt' decreases with insult after insult, ridicule after ridicule, ignorant comment after ignorant comment.
Quote
...have your say but also have some manners so as to not compromise or forfeit the respect that other members give to you...
As a very wise man once said, "Respect's not given, it's earned"....and I'd add, the quickest way to lose people's respect is to not show them any.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Andrea on December 07, 2012, 08:21:39 AM
I would very much like to think that MJ is trying to take down TPTB. That possibility has been on my mind every since the TDCAU clip from the TII rehearsals was released a few days after "death" day. The fact that that particular clip was released was so very telling for me, it made sense right away to me. I was already a "conspiracy theorist" before MJ "died" so I had an "advantage" to recognize this aspect of the hoax right away.
I think many of us are getting anxious for Michael to BAM. We're coming to the "dead"line that's been hinted at since 2009. Some of us will undoubtedly question our sanity if nothing happens and if we've kept each other collectively delusional all these years. I'm not going to assume the BAM will happen and yet I have faith that it will. It's the waiting that's suddenly become almost unbearable now that we're down to crunch time.
Post by: gwynned on December 07, 2012, 08:34:13 AM
I would very much like to think that MJ is trying to take down TPTB. That possibility has been on my mind every since the TDCAU clip from the TII rehearsals was released a few days after "death" day. The fact that that particular clip was released was so very telling for me, it made sense right away to me. I was already a "conspiracy theorist" before MJ "died" so I had an "advantage" to recognize this aspect of the hoax right away.
I think many of us are getting anxious for Michael to BAM. We're coming to the "dead"line that's been hinted at since 2009. Some of us will undoubtedly question our sanity if nothing happens and if we've kept each other collectively delusional all these years. I'm not going to assume the BAM will happen and yet I have faith that it will. It's the waiting that's suddenly become almost unbearable now that we're down to crunch time.
I know EXACTLY how you feel. I feel as though I'm in a state of suspended animation on a bridge between the familiar world everyone inhabits and the one that will arise once Michael returns. However it plays out, and it may be especially for us who have been here for so long, that moment will change everything. Perhaps it's unbearable because we are so tantalizingly close we can almost taste it!
Post by: wishingstar on December 07, 2012, 08:44:14 AM
I would very much like to think that MJ is trying to take down TPTB. That possibility has been on my mind every since the TDCAU clip from the TII rehearsals was released a few days after "death" day. The fact that that particular clip was released was so very telling for me, it made sense right away to me. I was already a "conspiracy theorist" before MJ "died" so I had an "advantage" to recognize this aspect of the hoax right away.
I think many of us are getting anxious for Michael to BAM. We're coming to the "dead"line that's been hinted at since 2009. Some of us will undoubtedly question our sanity if nothing happens and if we've kept each other collectively delusional all these years. I'm not going to assume the BAM will happen and yet I have faith that it will. It's the waiting that's suddenly become almost unbearable now that we're down to crunch time.
I know EXACTLY how you feel. I feel as though I'm in a state of suspended animation on a bridge between the familiar world everyone inhabits and the one that will arise once Michael returns. However it plays out, and it may be especially for us who have been here for so long, that moment will change everything. Perhaps it's unbearable because we are so tantalizingly close we can almost taste it!
Love that!!!!
Have a great day!!!
LOVE
Post by: bugsy on December 07, 2012, 08:51:44 AM
I would very much like to think that MJ is trying to take down TPTB. That possibility has been on my mind every since the TDCAU clip from the TII rehearsals was released a few days after "death" day. The fact that that particular clip was released was so very telling for me, it made sense right away to me. I was already a "conspiracy theorist" before MJ "died" so I had an "advantage" to recognize this aspect of the hoax right away.
I think many of us are getting anxious for Michael to BAM. We're coming to the "dead"line that's been hinted at since 2009. Some of us will undoubtedly question our sanity if nothing happens and if we've kept each other collectively delusional all these years. I'm not going to assume the BAM will happen and yet I have faith that it will. It's the waiting that's suddenly become almost unbearable now that we're down to crunch time.
Completely agree with you!
my own thoughts which I keep mostly to myself because I never feel completely comfortable sharing them but
I think one aspect is possibly a sting operation.. but also another type of sting operation, not with the FBI but with Us... the people of this world, to finally wake up to the western world in it's entirety..We live in a world where we have literally put our lives and our children's lives in the hands of others, others that we as mankind have come to trust such as doctors, the manufactures of medicines, the researchers in that field, the vaccines we give our children, we put our money in to a virtual world of banking where the it's all on a computer and doesn't truly exist, we put our safety of our family and ourselves in to the hands of people we don't know, our whole life is in the hands of strangers.
If you trace back to the beginning of the companies.. there is a handful of people who control all of these things....I believe for every thing that was said in the trial was carefully put there as to investigate it.... Western Medicine VS holistic.... Animal testing... media... Justice system... Music Industry... everything.. I don't think there was one thing in the trial of Conrad Murray that when traced back didn't have corruption in one way or another.
It all leads to one thing... waking people up to who controls the majority of things in our lives, including our health. It woke me up.. It's a spiderweb of inter connected people, and it's wrapped tightly around the world.
as Latoya said... Follow the money trail....
EDIT: I think back to michael's words.. having 4 years or it's irreversible... if people don't shake out of the chains of this oppression as i like to call it, then it will be too later, his family believes in the 21st december, and i truly believe he does too, and with that in mind, if people don't wake up before the 21st and want to shake off the chains.. then it's irreversible... there is 26,000 years before it can happen again. how can love be put out in to the world if people are still asleep, living in this system where they don't control their own lives? personally that think that's the true message... 4 years to get it right.... 4 years to teach the people of this world, expose these chains and break them before it's too late. He tried exposing a small part of it, and what reception did he receive? the media mocked him... said he was paranoid... and those who don't like him agreed... what other way can someone expose it all without being called paranoid or a wacko? Showing them. At times you have to step out of the situation and not use words but actions, put it before them, allow them to connect it themselves and then wake up to it. You can't compete against the media image... the media can not call every person who bothers to research paranoid and it's only so long before more and more people start questioning and start taking on board the possibilities... making small groups of people who say conspiracy is one thing.. but when the world slowly start waking up and seeing it, like ripples turning into waves, the media is drowned out. I don't know if i've made my point clearly because once again it's hard to get out what I'm thinking and gut instincts but hoping it is clear enough
Post by: curls on December 07, 2012, 09:43:33 AM
The irony of this statement is that if one is 'way off base', then one is fundamentally 'ignorant', in the sense of lacking accurate knowledge! It's possible to learn a lot but not know anything - the last 3.5 years have proved that.
Things are getting heated in here again, which is a shame. I think we should all cut each other some slack in this highly charged time.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 09:49:43 AM
'I'd rather be way off base in investigating something....than to be ignorant.'IMO there's no irony to that statement.
The irony of this statement is that if one is 'way off base', then one is fundamentally 'ignorant', in the sense of lacking accurate knowledge![...]
It just simply says one should have the courage to explore many fields, even if some of them will take you to a dead end (being "way off base").
But some will take you to NEW fields, NEW knowledge!
The risk of remaining ignorant equals with just staying in that one safe "comfortable" place - being afraid/reluctant to go to an unknown territory.
@UseYourIllusion: :bearhug: :bearhug:
Post by: BeTheChange on December 07, 2012, 10:00:19 AM
The height of ignorance, as Einstein so brilliantly noted, is in condemning something WITHOUT investigation. The ONLY way to know if one is 'way off base' is to investigate. Based on what has been researched to date on MANY issues, including evidence directly from Mike...this line of research is far from being 'way off base'. To suggest it is, after all we have learned...or worse yet, ridicule the thought, IS very ignorant.
Comments/attitudes/actions here speak for themselves...and they speak loudly.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 07, 2012, 10:12:04 AM
Post by: bec on December 07, 2012, 11:14:49 AM
SO Michael Jackson knew about 9/11 about 4 years BEFORE 9/11 happened??? *BullShit* and He tried to tell us by the blood on the dance floor cd cover??:icon_eek:
If Michael knew why the h*** did he not speak up,he could have saved 1344 people, and why did Mj have a concert the day before 9/11 if he knew.
Yeah , go figure this:
The world would have totally believed that the US will collapse the twins if Michael Jackson, also known as "WACKO JACKO", "the child molester", had come out in public and said so!
They would have mocked and ridiculed him even more so! probably they would have attempted to kill him faster and wouldn't have wasted time to frame him with the 2nd trial!
NobodY would have believed Michael nor anyone else who had dared to come out publicly and say it out loud! Look what happened to Bill Cooper and so many others who have said it way before in the 90's or 80s!? They all "conveniently" died!!
All that Michael could have done in order to warn us without risking his life was exactly what he did: he SUBTLY inserted clues into his ART and ultimately he "died" for the truth to come out!It scares me that some of you believe this. :over-react-smiley:It scares me that some of you refuse to see the obvious :over-react-smiley:
Billie J posted this fairly innocuous comment that it scares her that some believe this and Sim, you came back and professed that your theory is the "obvious" one, and accused BillieJ of "refusing" to see.
I call it "Illuminati paranoia land" because that's where the theories take ME when I entertain them. It was an assumption that I attributed that mindset to anyone else.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with BillieJ saying she gets scared that some believe something or another. If she gets scared she gets scared. It's not an insult to anyone, it's a statement about how she feels. Presumably an honest statement. Someone being honest about their feelings should not be taken as an insult and certainly not as an invitation to attack her for it or suggesting she's "refusing to see" something.
No one's theory is the "obvious" truth. No one's.
BillyJ gets scared and Illuminati investigations make me paranoid. These are personal comments. Now it's open season? We have pages now of members posting about being called ignorant (no one called anyone ignorant) and being "way off base" (quoted as if someone said this about the topic, no one did), and accusations of hypocrisy.
I never accused anyone of refusing to see the "obvious" and there's pages here of members attacking me, yet Sim does and it's perfectly ok?
Page after page of attacks because BillieJ gets scared and I get paranoid. Is this where we want to go? Scathing posts about refusing to see the obvious and passive-aggressive insults because the current climate encourages the pile on? Come on.
There's a ton of 'irony' in many comments here....lots of hypocrisy too.
Comments/attitudes/actions here speak for themselves...and they speak loudly.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Agreed.
Post by: Jowayria on December 07, 2012, 11:29:43 AM
I have a small question.....
Does anyone know why Michael used to wear a red bracelet?
(http://ww
w.webstore.com/cache/cache_500_1_1_img_7767977_57226392e110cb5f81747e717c60fea0jpg.gif)
Isn't that a sign of Freemasonary? I watched lately a video on youtube with pictures of celebrities who are part of this Illuminati thing and all of them were wearing a red bracelet too. That picture I posted was shown. Now I'm totally confused!!
(http://www.mjinnocencebracelets.com/BBmichael-jackson-pamela-anderson.jpg)
People who know the significance of talismatic strings in Judaism would probably find it easy to answer your question . Well , The red strings are usually worn by people who belong to a sort of a theosophical branch of Judaism named " Kabbalah" which literally means " obtaining " or " having " . Kabbalah's ethics and morals are derived from Judaism and Christinaity . Kabbalists believe in the divinity of the universe , which means that they consider the universe as God , just because it can't be known and it is endless .
A lot of people wear the string without even realising its significance but I do believe that Michael wore it for the purpose for which it was created : To protect man from the Evil Eye and its negativity . I wear it too ;)
( Funny when people just wear it to immitate their Idols , and they put it on their right wrists :icon_mrgreen: )
love
Post by: BeTheChange on December 07, 2012, 12:00:21 PM
There's a ton of 'irony' in many comments here....lots of hypocrisy too.
Comments/attitudes/actions here speak for themselves...and they speak loudly.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Agreed.
At least we agree on that.
For those interested, some TS posts that are relevant to the discussion:
Quote
R9. 9/11 Truth vs Mainstream Mediahttp://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,1927.msg27565.html#msg27565 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,1927.msg27565.html#msg27565)
{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNsSn6D3CP4}
It seems as if nobody noticed that this 9-11 redirect was done intentionally on the date 11-9 (9-11 backwards); this was also the 9th redirect. This message here is basically two-fold: you can’t trust the mainstream media in general, and specifically you can’t trust what the media has told us about the 9-11 attacks.
At this point it is probably a good place to stop and talk a little bit about a common term, no doubt you have heard it: conspiracy theorists; all too often, it is used with a negative connotation, a form of ridicule. So we need to establish another term: conspiracy ridiculists! You see, conspiracy theorists use evidence in support of the theory; but when opponents can’t fight the truth with evidence, they resort to ridicule in attempts to make up for their lack of evidence.
The fact is that conspiracy theories are indeed based on theories; but at least in many cases, they are based upon true theories! If you look up “conspiracy” in the Bible, you will find ten uses of the word (KJV); and out of those ten times, exactly ten of them are real conspiracies—and not merely some far-fetched imaginary theory, invented by some insanely ignorant people. If you look up the related word “conspired”, you will find similar results.
Among many serious problems with the mainstream media’s account of 9-11 terrorism, possibly the most obvious evidence of USA government involvement, is the lack of any video showing the airplane supposedly flying into the Pentagon. Probably no building in the world has more video and camera surveillance; and yet for eight years now, our beloved government hasn’t been able to cough up the documentation from any of the numerous cameras.
Sure, we have seen the still shot of an explosion; but that could’ve been from a missile or a bomb. Where is the motion video evidence of an airliner flying into the Pentagon?? Will the conspiracy ridiculists now come forward, and answer this question—since our “trustworthy” government refuses to do so???
Many hoax believers are already aware of the 9-11 conspiracy in our government. For those who want to look into it, though, here are a couple of websites that are not from wild-eyed and uneducated lunatics; instead, they are from highly trained professionals: architects, engineers, and pilots—all agreeing that the official story about 9-11 is a big fat lie! {http://www.ae911truth.org; http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_Movement}
Of course President Bush is a big suspect in the 9-11 terrorism corruption. Here is a video where he admits that he is in the secret society called “Skull and Bones” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiisokDGbfA&NR=1}. Why do you suppose they used such a name, could it possibly have anything to do with killing? And by the way: the “conspiracy theorists” ridicule tactic was used in this clip.
Here is another video, where Bush was asked about 9-11 prior knowledge; and he was quite obviously embarrassed, and at a loss for words {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8ChWyZZAaA&NR=1}. Bush corruption will be revisited, when we examine the assassinations of JFK Sr. & Jr. (see Part 7).
Quote
1-16. The New World Order?http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,3391.msg52818.html#msg52818 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,3391.msg52818.html#msg52818)
This subject generated responses from one extreme, that the New World Order (NWO) doesn’t even exist—and in fact can’t possibly exist—all the way to the other extreme of: “We’ve known about the NWO for decades, so TIAI was just a waste of time.” Well guess what: both of these two extreme complaints can’t possibly be true! And in fact, neither of the complaints are valid.
Even if all hoax believers already understood the NWO/conspiracy aspects (and many did not, before TIAI): still, the redirects and explanations of them (TIAI Revealed) are not just for hoax investigators now—they are also for the MJ fan stampede, which will surely hit the hoax web pages once the MJ return occurs. Furthermore, there has been a major awakening on these subjects since the start of TIAI—not only on the hoax forums, but also on YouTube and other websites. The MJalive999 video on TIAI part 1 now has more than 16,000 views! {http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeFpn45po5A}
For those who thought that the NWO doesn’t even exist (because if it did, they would control the internet—and we wouldn’t be able to find any information about them): the NWO is very powerful, but not all powerful. There are still many good people in powerful positions in this world; in fact, there are some good people in the secret societies (although in the lower levels, where they don’t really understand the agenda of the upper levels).
None questioning the existence of the NWO bothered to step up to the plate, and explain why there has never been any video of an airplane flying into the Pentagon. If this doesn’t convince you of major conspiracy in our own government, then nothing will. And if you are convinced of this, then you can be certain that the NWO is very real and very powerful (USA being the most powerful government on earth); and in fact George Bush Sr. is the one who announced the “New World Order” (see again the EndGame trailer in TIAI Revealed, Part 3). Neither did any NWO skeptic bother to explain why JFK Jr’s fuel selector was shut off, during his plane crash.
Do MJ and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in conspiracies and the NWO, etc? Yes, they do! In fact, MJ specifically put the JFK conspiracy in his 1995 “Tabloid Junkie” song (which is actually about lies in all the media—not just tabloid media): “JFK exposed the CIA. Truth be told the grassy knoll” {http://http://www.lyrics007.com/Michael%20Jackson%20Lyrics/Tabloid%20Junkie%20Lyrics.html; http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid_Junkie}. You see, MJ was showing that JFK was killed for exposing conspiracies in our own government (CIA). And the “truth” about JFK is the “grassy knoll”, which is the conspiracy version of the killing—not the government’s “lone gunman” theory {http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_gunman}.
When MJ was talking in “This Is It”, about the 4 years: he said don’t wait for the government. And in the song “They Don’t Really Care About Us”, the word “they” is not primarily about the media. {http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r75j3f-IOs4; http://http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/mj-friend-he-almost-died-during-trial/;
http://http://mjkit.forumotion.net/breaking-news-f3/michaels-late-night-voice-mails-said-he-was-scared-for-his-life-t1686.htm;
http://http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1634}
The banned version of the video is about prison {http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAi3dJIJwgI}—and who runs prisons: the media, or the government? The other version has MJ singing “you can never kill me” {at 1:05, http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q}; and this is while he’s standing beside the NWO all-seeing eye, that is also on the back of the USA one dollar bill (which says Novus Ordo Seclorum under the eye, and is Latin for New World Order {http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Novus_ordo_seclorum}).
1-17. The End of the (New) World (Order)?
As we already saw above, Jehovah’s Witnesses do believe that the end of the world is near. Different people have different ideas about what will take place at the “end of the world”; but many Christians and even other religions believe that something major is very near.
MJ himself was very clear about the 4 years; and even if it was only the environment (and he never said that the 4 years is only about the environment): it would still be the end of the world, if the damage to the environment becomes irreversible.
Also, the “2012” movie came from Sony—just like “This Is It”; and Tommy Mottola is no longer with Sony {http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Mottola}. The “2012” movie came out right after “This Is It”, and the “Jackson” and many other MJ parallels in “2012” are not just coincidence. Therefore, MJ does believe that the end of the world is near.
The original “2012” trailer had a message at the end, recommending people take it seriously and not just fiction: “Find Out the Truth Google Search: 2012” {http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKbEI8pDz0A}. Currently, if you type a “2” into the Google search window (or YouTube), the very first suggestion is “2012” (and about three more suggestions below have “2012” in them). This means that a lot of people are searching for truth about the end of the world.
Yes, there are scientists who say, “Don’t worry about the end of the world”. But there are also well-known sources who say that it’s a realistic possibility. For one, the History Channel takes 2012 seriously; it shows multiple prophecies and factors pointing to the end of the world in our time—some of which even point specifically to 2012 {http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iloM0vjEAMY}.
Many people are refusing to believe in the end of the world, merely because they don’t want to believe it—not because it isn’t true (or a lack of evidence). But who are the bigger fools: the ones who believe and are ready, yet it does not come—or the ones who don’t believe and are not ready, and then it does come??
I haven't been able to go through all the posts again...but under the username "TS" alone (there are more instances under the username TS_comments and The Sign), the keywords 'NWO', "Illuminati", and "secret societies" were mentioned 74, 16 and 6 times respectively.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: bec on December 07, 2012, 12:15:24 PM
Post by: BeTheChange on December 07, 2012, 12:30:49 PM
I posted the TS quotes...yes, to highlight the fact that some STILL don't believe in the serious side of the hoax (as is evident in many flippant comments about it all being 'just a game'---note, that was only ONE paragraph out of an entire page that I quoted)...but more importantly, in the hopes of getting back to the discussion that some were engaging in....the possible 'why's' of the hoax.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 12:40:54 PM
And I'm not going to answer to your long message that tries in vain to minimize the irony that was both in your message and in Billie J comment.
Post by: bec on December 07, 2012, 12:47:41 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 12:49:47 PM
So what happens if I feel insulted? Green light to insult right back? Where does it end?Excuse me! I never insulted anyone!
You should back up what you say with exact quotes!
Post by: diggyon on December 07, 2012, 12:50:27 PM
The End
Post by: bec on December 07, 2012, 12:52:01 PM
It ends when both of you don't talk about it anymore
The End
You're right. Thank you again, diggyon.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 12:53:10 PM
It ends when both of you don't talk about it anymoreNO! It ends when people learn to respect other people regardless of their opinions on various subjects! THAT's when it ends!
The End
But as long as they ridicule and then deny ridiculing, projecting themselves as "victims" when people react to their ironies, then no it won't stop unfortunately!
Post by: Andrea on December 07, 2012, 12:56:09 PM
@everyone - let's all be friends, ok? We've got a good group of lovely people here, it's ok to have different opinions but let's not take our frustrations out on each other. Please?
Post by: diggyon on December 07, 2012, 12:56:20 PM
It ends when both of you don't talk about it anymoreNO! It ends when people learn to respect other people regardless of their opinions on various subjects! THAT's when it ends!
The End
But as long as they ridicule and they deny ridiculing, projecting themselves as "victims" when people react to their ironies, then no it won't stop unfortunately!
Sim I know it hurts when someone is ridiculed or insulted by someone else. But don't you think it is better to talk about it in private with this person? Getting nervous will make things even worse, believe me!
Post by: diggyon on December 07, 2012, 12:57:25 PM
@everyone - let's all be friends, ok? We've got a good group of lovely people here, it's ok to have different opinions but let's not take our frustrations out on each other. Please?
I love what you wrote!!
:bearhug:
Post by: mjselfsweet on December 07, 2012, 01:13:26 PM
Frank Cascio states in his book that it was him (Frank) that had the appt at the twin towers to return the million dollar watch that MJ wore at Madison square gardens shows. Not MJ. why would Frank lie? He put this out there in a book where if the facts were any different, any number of people couldve spoken out that he was lying. They were all woken up by a security guard telling them to get up and had to get out, because one of the towers had been hit.
I personally dont believe alot of what I read on here,, doesnt mean that if someone else believes it they are right and its OBVIOUS.... everything is up for interpretation since none of us are MJ or was there... except maybe Front,, IF he's MJ.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 07, 2012, 01:22:44 PM
Post by: paula-c on December 07, 2012, 01:24:13 PM
Post by: mjselfsweet on December 07, 2012, 01:24:51 PM
Just because you read it in a magazine (in this case book) or see it on a movie screen don’t make it actual, factual. Michael told us that years ago and judging on books, mags, articles I’ve seen, reviewed, read of late, he nailed it.
same goes for the internet,, just because its on the internet doesnt make it true
Post by: BeTheChange on December 07, 2012, 01:25:31 PM
Quote
Jermaine Jackson’s new book, “You Are Not Alone: Michael, Through a Brother’s Eyes,” is a look at his late brother Michael’s rise to fame and tragic death.http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44519865/ns/today-entertainment/t/was-michael-jackson-almost-wtc/#.UMJBx-Sun3J (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44519865/ns/today-entertainment/t/was-michael-jackson-almost-wtc/#.UMJBx-Sun3J)
In a new interview, Jermaine gave Access Hollywood’s Billy Bush a preview of the candid memoir where he revealed that his brother was supposed to be in The World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001.
“My mother had stayed up with him all the way until four in the morning and he just slept; he missed his appointments, which was great,” Jermaine told Billy, saying Michael — a long time sufferer of sleep deprivation — had planned to attend meetings in the Twin Towers that day.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: mjselfsweet on December 07, 2012, 01:31:33 PM
@mjselfsweet...Frank's account in his book contradicts Jermaine's version in his book. Not saying we can, therefore, conclude Jermaine is 'right'...but instead, just noting that there are conflicting stories of what took place. So, if the question 'why would Frank lie' is a fair one (and it is), so is 'why would Jermaine lie'?QuoteJermaine Jackson’s new book, “You Are Not Alone: Michael, Through a Brother’s Eyes,” is a look at his late brother Michael’s rise to fame and tragic death.http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44519865/ns/today-entertainment/t/was-michael-jackson-almost-wtc/#.UMJBx-Sun3J (http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44519865/ns/today-entertainment/t/was-michael-jackson-almost-wtc/#.UMJBx-Sun3J)
In a new interview, Jermaine gave Access Hollywood’s Billy Bush a preview of the candid memoir where he revealed that his brother was supposed to be in The World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001.
“My mother had stayed up with him all the way until four in the morning and he just slept; he missed his appointments, which was great,” Jermaine told Billy, saying Michael — a long time sufferer of sleep deprivation — had planned to attend meetings in the Twin Towers that day.
With L.O.V.E. always.
true BTC, but I, myself believe that Michael was pretty much "separated" from his brothers, by choice, for a long time,, they did their thing, he did his, and I personally believe Franks account,, I believe that maybe Jermaine didnt always know what MJ was doing, along w/the rest of his siblings.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 07, 2012, 01:34:03 PM
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 07, 2012, 01:34:43 PM
Just because you read it in a magazine (in this case book) or see it on a movie screen don’t make it actual, factual. Michael told us that years ago and judging on books, mags, articles I’ve seen, reviewed, read of late, he nailed it.
same goes for the internet,, just because its on the internet doesnt make it true
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmx4twCK3_I[/youtube]
:thjajaja121:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 01:42:20 PM
TIAI Revealed, Part 7: NWO Powers Control the Mass Media (R29 - R42)
This whole part 7 deals with the secret societies; and especially their agenda to create a one-world religion and one-world government system, called the New World Order (NWO). There are many such societies, including: Illuminati, Skull & Bones, Masons, and many more; they are bricks in the pyramid (shown on the back of the U.S. one dollar bill). Instead of trying to identify individual secret societies, the general term “NWO powers” will be used.
Michael is well aware of these NWO powers, their corruption, their tremendous power, and their conspiracies (see R29). And he knows that these powers control the mass media; which means that if you do a hoax to expose the mass media corruption, you are inherently going to come under the wrath of the powers that control the media—you can’t do one, without having the other. So he has to be very careful with when and how he returns to the public eye.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,1930.msg27572.html#msg27572
Post by: paula-c on December 07, 2012, 01:59:18 PM
Just because you read it in a magazine (in this case book) or see it on a movie screen don’t make it actual, factual. Michael told us that years ago and judging on books, mags, articles I’ve seen, reviewed, read of late, he nailed it.
same goes for the internet,, just because its on the internet doesnt make it true
On the internet that there is a lot to read to differentiate the truth of what is speculative, but the difference of the internet is that there are very good alternative media.
Post by: MJonmind on December 07, 2012, 02:15:57 PM
Hes
Quote
Just because you read it in a magazine (in this case book) or see it on a movie screen don’t make it actual, factual. Michael told us that years ago and judging on books, mags, articles I’ve seen, reviewed, read of late, he nailed it.You know, with all the books on MJ that have come out, and especially T Mesereau speaking in support of Sullivan’s controversial book, I believe each of the books likely have some falsehoods and half-truths. How do you get out information to a general population with evil people reading everything too to silence it? You hide truths amongst the garbage they are used to, just so they’ll pick it up and read it. Like I said before, it's called infiltration and camoflage tactics.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 03:03:38 PM
---> http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,1930.msg27572.html#msg27572
TIAI Revealed, Part 7: NWO Powers Control the Mass Media (R29 - R42)
[...]
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R29. MJ on Police Brutality
{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO7wOwdTwB8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO7wOwdTwB8)}
The redirect for this day was another YouTube video; it was a segment on police brutality, from the 60 minutes interview in December of 2003. It is of course very sad the way that MJ was treated; but the truly heroic part, was his humble and mild response—you have to watch it, if you haven’t already.
Later in this same interview (part 3), Michael said: “I don’t want to say too much … there’s a conspiracy, yeah; I don’t want to say too much. I’m done.” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK9jyZaCgVc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK9jyZaCgVc), at 8:20} You see, he didn’t want to say much, because he knew the danger involved in exposing the NWO powers. And no, he was not talking about some small-town conspiracy; he was talking “media” conspiracy, and “manipulating history books”, etc. Watch the following YouTube video; it has good information, even though they mistakenly think that he was murdered {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbK41pGa3IA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbK41pGa3IA)}.
[...]
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R35. Google Search on Various Conspiracy Murders
{http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1W1SUNA_en&tbo=0&q=conspiracy+%22pearl+harbor%22+jfk+rfk+mlk+%22princess+di%22+911+titanic+...&aq=f&oq=&aqi (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1W1SUNA_en&tbo=0&q=conspiracy+%22pearl+harbor%22+jfk+rfk+mlk+%22princess+di%22+911+titanic+...&aq=f&oq=&aqi)}
[...]
The list on the Google search was Pearl Harbor, JFK, RFK, MLK, Princess Di, 911, and the Titanic; Pearl Harbor was listed first, because that redirect was on December 7 (Pearl Harbor Day, 68th anniversary). Some said that other cases should’ve been included. However, there wasn’t much more room in the search box; if you looked close, though, there were three dots at the end (…) to indicate more—yes, there are many more cases. And all of the cases listed have common elements: conspiracy by corrupt powers in the government to murder their own people, and for the purpose of establishing the NWO.
Also, about half of the listed cases have close connection with MJ: he knew Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonwalk_(book) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonwalk_(book))}; here is a YouTube video with MJ and Lady Diana {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0aG8SXa-j8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0aG8SXa-j8)}; and MLK III spoke at MJ’s memorial {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPOCwa4YnMQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPOCwa4YnMQ)}.
[...]- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
R36. Aphrodite Jones and Thomas Mesereau (MJ Conspiracy)
{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwehjDPOYU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwehjDPOYU)}
[...]
Now back to the “MJ Conspiracy” book and video. Quite obviously, there was a conspiracy against MJ, even though it wasn’t a murder conspiracy. And the testimony from Aphrodite shows that people involved in a conspiracy may not even know it themselves (only the upper levels understand). And even after she recognized the conspiracy, it seems that she only saw media and money as the source of the conspiracy—not the NWO powers controlling the media.
The conspiracy did succeed to the extent of damaging MJ’s reputation; but it did not succeed to the extent of the court finding him guilty. At the end of the video clip, Aphrodite asked a very appropriate question: “Why are we still crucifying this man? He was found not guilty.”
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R37. Daniel and the Lion’s Den
{http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%206:22&version=NLT (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%206:22&version=NLT)}
“My God sent his angel to shut the lions’ mouths so that they would not hurt me, for I have been found innocent in his sight. And I have not wronged you, Your Majesty.” (Daniel 6:22, NLT).
As always, the context of the verse is important. In this case, it is the very well known story of Daniel and the lion’s den. High officials in the kingdom hated Daniel, and conspired to get rid of him; but God overruled, saved Daniel’s life, and vindicated his character. I’m sure that you can see the parallel here, with the conspiracy against MJ. God thwarted the plans of MJ’s enemies, and he was found not guilty on all charges.
Now let’s stop and think here for a minute. These NWO leaders are capable of sinking a whole ship, and killing over 1,500 people on it, just to get rid of a few people. They brought down the trade towers, which killed masses of people; they killed the US President (JFK), as well as his son—and the list goes on.
Then don’t you think they are capable of taking MJ out? So why didn’t they succeed in killing MJ before 2009? In fact, why didn’t they succeed in the child molestation charges? There is a very simple answer: as with Daniel, God shut the mouths of the lions, and thwarted the conspiracies of the government officials.
Why did God protect MJ, and not JFK, MLK, etc? Perhaps only God understands that fully; but it could well be that God has a special plan for MJ, in the final battle against the NWO. Maybe God has a mission for MJ, and has protected him from his enemies “for such a time as this” (Esther 4:14).
Then if God can protect MJ in 1993, and in 2005, and clear up to 6-25-09: then don’t you think that God can still protect him after 6-25-09? In fact, don’t you think that God could protect his life ON 6-25-09??? Then why do we keep being faithless, and thinking that he really died?
If God wants to keep MJ alive, or you, or anyone else: not all the weapons in the whole world can kill. Just like Daniel in the lion’s den: “My God sent his angel to shut the lions’ mouths so that they would not hurt me …”
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R38. “People Should Not Be Afraid of Their Governments. …”
{http://rlv.zcache.com/people_should_not_be_afraid_of_their_government_bumper_sticker-p128385723565042693trl0_400.jpg (http://rlv.zcache.com/people_should_not_be_afraid_of_their_government_bumper_sticker-p128385723565042693trl0_400.jpg)}
The full quote says: “People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.” As most already know, this is a quote from the “V for Vendetta” film. This clue was quite obvious, and didn’t need any deep investigation. Yet this had more than one reason, as usual.
Especially after the section on the Kennedys, people were saying that TIAI was trying to create fear in order to control people. It is sad that people try to find an evil motive in everything; yet with the condition of society, there is a great deal of evil out there—so it is understandable. So this redirect was given to help people see that TIAI was not trying to create fear in the people; if anything, it is intended to create fear in the corrupt leaders committing these crimes.
[...]
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R39. Michael’s Army of L.O.V.E.
{http://www.mtv.com/photos/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-frames/1621244/4251494/photo.jhtml (http://www.mtv.com/photos/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-frames/1621244/4251494/photo.jhtml)}
This clue was one of the still shots, from the TII trailer; specifically, an army of soldiers, with an “M” in the center of the background (Michael’s army). Take a look at a close up picture of the soldiers, and you will see that they are not carrying guns or weapons {http://www.mtv.com/photos/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-frames/1621244/4251493/photo.jhtml (http://www.mtv.com/photos/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-frames/1621244/4251493/photo.jhtml)}. This is because it’s an Army of L.O.V.E., not an army of violence.
These soldiers in the TII movie were filmed as part of the song “They Don’t Really Care About Us”. This army needs to stand up against the NWO corruption, the very ones that MJ is singing about—who don’t really care about us, but kill thousands of their own citizens to forward their evil agenda.
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http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,1926.msg27563.html#msg27563
TIAI Revealed, Part 3: Purpose of TIAI (R1 - R7)
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R7. Liberian Girl Video on YouTube
{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9VwJHoI3TY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9VwJHoI3TY)}
Last but not least, this video was chosen because of the title: Liberian Girl. The root word here is liberty! And once again, that is one of the main purposes for the MJ hoax and the TIAI message: to help bring awareness and freedom from the corruption in the government and in the media. “In what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom …” (see R48).
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,1929.msg27570.html#msg27570
TIAI Revealed, Part 6: “This Is It” Movie Rating (R20 - R28)
[...]
“Yes, this whole hoax and plan is for a bigger purpose than just exposing the media. It is time for everyone to STUDY peace {http://new.etonline.com/documents/mjackson_funeral_program_et_090409.pdf (http://new.etonline.com/documents/mjackson_funeral_program_et_090409.pdf)}: peace in our own lives, and peace in our world.”
[...]
Then what about the MJ “Return” to public view, when will that be? Well, the sad thing is that potentially he could’ve returned at Halloween; but we were not ready. We did not understand the NWO conspiracy aspect of the hoax, or the seriousness of it; in fact, the old MJHD was forbidding discussion on this subject! And just a few days later, it went down and was out for about a week. We simply were not ready for MJ to return yet; if he had, in all the excitement, people would’ve had little or no interest in studying into the NWO aspects of the hoax.
Since people were not ready for the MJ return at Halloween: immediately after the TII movie was released, TIAI was set up. The purpose of TIAI was (and still is) to give MJ fans, and especially hoax believers, a better understanding and bigger picture of the hoax and the reasons for it; this in turn would help prepare the way for the MJ “Return”!
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R23. Seventy Seven
{http://images.clubzone.com/company/images/3175.jpg (http://images.clubzone.com/company/images/3175.jpg)}
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/3175.jpg)
This “Seventy Seven” image had several meanings. Most obvious, is the many sevens surrounding MJ. This image also looks similar to the MJ logo; most have seen this already, but if you haven’t seen it yet: you can see it on this good website {http://www.myspace.com/thisisalsomj (http://www.myspace.com/thisisalsomj)}
Another meaning here is the upside down pyramid. The illuminati likes the regular pyramid (like on the back of the U.S. one dollar bill): with the few on top, controlling the masses below. Turning the pyramid upside down represents the masses controlling the few (government afraid of the people).
If you write “666” on a regular pyramid, and then turn it over so that you have an upside down pyramid, the numbers become “999”. You see, MJ plans to turn the NWO upside down with the hoax, revolving around the 9-9-09 date.
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http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg27579.html#msg27579
TIAI Revealed, Part 8: The End Is Near (R43 - R48)
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R48. “In What Will Go Down in HIStory
as the Greatest Demonstration for Freedom ... 999”
{http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&q=%22In%20what%20will%20go%20down%20in%20HIStory%20as%20the%20greatest%20demonstration%20for%20freedom%20...%20999%22&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&q=%22In%20what%20will%20go%20down%20in%20HIStory%20as%20the%20greatest%20demonstration%20for%20freedom%20...%20999%22&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi)}
This is a quote from Martin Luther King Junior’s speech, titled “I Have a Dream”. And as most of you know already, MJ used this in “They Don’t Really Care About Us” (in the film). Of course this could be yet another amazing coincidence; but it really seems like MJ used this phrase in that song, because the death hoax would go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom from the NWO and media control (as well as other aspects of freedom).
The “999” was put at the end, to keep any images from coming up in the search; that would keep this final message fairly simple and straightforward. Yes, there are some interesting properties of 999 {http://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu999.php (http://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu999.php)}. And finally, this “999” was included in the redirect, as one last clue about 9-9-09.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 03:05:39 PM
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1-4. Why Do You Believe the Hoax?
It’s true that a few things can happen by random coincidence; but when they keep piling one on top of another, that’s when you say it can’t all be a coincidence. In fact, this is one of the main reasons why so many believe in the MJ hoax—because there are too many “coincidences”. And if you are going to dismiss all the TIAI evidence as merely “coincidences”: then why don’t you dismiss the MJ hoax “coincidences” as well?
So we will review the TIAI (and STUDY) “coincidences”, all of which are backed up with very solid evidence. For those who want to continue opposing TIAI, you are more than welcome to do so as long as your opposition is based on solid evidence—not mere ridicule, or shallow complaints, etc. And also please step up to the plate, and explain all of these “coincidences”—instead of just ignoring them, and pretending that they don’t exist. And if you think anything is incorrect, then please document why it is wrong. People shouldn’t be expected to trust what you say, merely because you say it—anymore than people should be expected to trust what TIAI says, without solid evidence.
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1-7. Why Would the “Return” Depend on Hoaxers?
Several have asked: why would the timing of the MJ return be dependent (at least partly) upon few thousand hoax believers, and their understanding/accepting the TIAI information? A simple answer is that the reaction of the few before the return, can be a pretty good indicator of the reaction of the many after the return
{http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1991 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1991)}.
But think about it. After returning, MJ can speak publicly about the environment and other issues related to healing the world; but with some aspects, well I think you can figure things out. As soon as MJ returns, there will be a stampede on all the hoax forums; there will be tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands, suddenly interested in what we have been investigating and saying all along. So if we hoax believers now are united on the reasons for the hoax: it will be much more effective when others come asking questions, than if we are all confused and disagreeing on the reasons for the hoax.
Here is how Mo put it: “It's a process to make people AWARE of what is going on. If you don't research, read, learn and understand, you won't become aware. If S.T.U.D.Y., TS or any Anonymous poster would have told you plain out who he/she is and where all the info he/she has came from, you would not have read the full explanation and wouldn't have learned anything. TIAI pointed out to conspiracies and NWO, and those issues were rejected by a lot of people until TIAI pointed out to them. Me? Guilty as charged... I skipped the ‘Illuminati’ threads as well until TIAI forced me to look into this whole issue. After researching it, and not reading up on the conspiracies and NWO only, a lot of things became clear to me.” {http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1936&start=75 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=1936&start=75)}
So if there are any questions or objections that I have not addressed in this thread, please post them in the replies below; and I will answer them directly right here in the replies (I will watch this thread pretty closely, for the next week or two, and respond to things as needed—so as to help clear the way as far as possible for a speedy “Return”).
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1-16. The New World Order?
This subject generated responses from one extreme, that the New World Order (NWO) doesn’t even exist—and in fact can’t possibly exist—all the way to the other extreme of: “We’ve known about the NWO for decades, so TIAI was just a waste of time.” Well guess what: both of these two extreme complaints can’t possibly be true! And in fact, neither of the complaints are valid.
Even if all hoax believers already understood the NWO/conspiracy aspects (and many did not, before TIAI): still, the redirects and explanations of them (TIAI Revealed) are not just for hoax investigators now—they are also for the MJ fan stampede, which will surely hit the hoax web pages once the MJ return occurs. Furthermore, there has been a major awakening on these subjects since the start of TIAI—not only on the hoax forums, but also on YouTube and other websites. The MJalive999 video on TIAI part 1 now has more than 16,000 views! {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeFpn45po5A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeFpn45po5A)}
For those who thought that the NWO doesn’t even exist (because if it did, they would control the internet—and we wouldn’t be able to find any information about them): the NWO is very powerful, but not all powerful. There are still many good people in powerful positions in this world; in fact, there are some good people in the secret societies (although in the lower levels, where they don’t really understand the agenda of the upper levels).
None questioning the existence of the NWO bothered to step up to the plate, and explain why there has never been any video of an airplane flying into the Pentagon. If this doesn’t convince you of major conspiracy in our own government, then nothing will. And if you are convinced of this, then you can be certain that the NWO is very real and very powerful (USA being the most powerful government on earth); and in fact George Bush Sr. is the one who announced the “New World Order” (see again the EndGame trailer in TIAI Revealed, Part 3). Neither did any NWO skeptic bother to explain why JFK Jr’s fuel selector was shut off, during his plane crash.
Do MJ and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in conspiracies and the NWO, etc? Yes, they do! In fact, MJ specifically put the JFK conspiracy in his 1995 “Tabloid Junkie” song (which is actually about lies in all the media—not just tabloid media): “JFK exposed the CIA. Truth be told the grassy knoll” {http://www.lyrics007.com/Michael%20Jackson%20Lyrics/Tabloid%20Junkie%20Lyrics.html (http://www.lyrics007.com/Michael%20Jackson%20Lyrics/Tabloid%20Junkie%20Lyrics.html); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid_Junkie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid_Junkie)}. You see, MJ was showing that JFK was killed for exposing conspiracies in our own government (CIA). And the “truth” about JFK is the “grassy knoll”, which is the conspiracy version of the killing—not the government’s “lone gunman” theory {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_gunman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_gunman)}.
When MJ was talking in “This Is It”, about the 4 years: he said don’t wait for the government. And in the song “They Don’t Really Care About Us”, the word “they” is not primarily about the media. {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r75j3f-IOs4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r75j3f-IOs4); http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/mj-friend-he-almost-died-during-trial/ (http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/29/mj-friend-he-almost-died-during-trial/);
http://mjkit.forumotion.net/breaking-news-f3/michaels-late-night-voice-mails-said-he-was-scared-for-his-life-t1686.htm (http://mjkit.forumotion.net/breaking-news-f3/michaels-late-night-voice-mails-said-he-was-scared-for-his-life-t1686.htm);
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1634 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1634)}
The banned version of the video is about prison {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAi3dJIJwgI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAi3dJIJwgI)}—and who runs prisons: the media, or the government? The other version has MJ singing “you can never kill me” {at 1:05, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q)}; and this is while he’s standing beside the NWO all-seeing eye, that is also on the back of the USA one dollar bill (which says Novus Ordo Seclorum under the eye, and is Latin for New World Order {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Novus_ordo_seclorum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Novus_ordo_seclorum)}).
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1-17. The End of the (New) World (Order)?
As we already saw above, Jehovah’s Witnesses do believe that the end of the world is near. Different people have different ideas about what will take place at the “end of the world”; but many Christians and even other religions believe that something major is very near.
MJ himself was very clear about the 4 years; and even if it was only the environment (and he never said that the 4 years is only about the environment): it would still be the end of the world, if the damage to the environment becomes irreversible.
Also, the “2012” movie came from Sony—just like “This Is It”; and Tommy Mottola is no longer with Sony {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Mottola (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Mottola)}. The “2012” movie came out right after “This Is It”, and the “Jackson” and many other MJ parallels in “2012” are not just coincidence. Therefore, MJ does believe that the end of the world is near.
The original “2012” trailer had a message at the end, recommending people take it seriously and not just fiction: “Find Out the Truth Google Search: 2012” {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKbEI8pDz0A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKbEI8pDz0A)}. Currently, if you type a “2” into the Google search window (or YouTube), the very first suggestion is “2012” (and about three more suggestions below have “2012” in them). This means that a lot of people are searching for truth about the end of the world.
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What I have done, is worked hard to promote truth about MJ: “the truth will prevail”! I’m only trying to help spread the truth, Michael’s message, and help people be ready for the end of the world—nothing more, and nothing less. If that is a crime, then I will be the first one to eagerly plead guilty.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 07, 2012, 03:22:44 PM
I don't know for others, but regarding me, you have a few quotes below from previous pages!
Then IMO the subject ( DWD patient vs. dummy/live Mj ) is pretty much consumed for now, out of lack of more info and because there are clearly 2 categories of users: those who support one theory and those who support the other one. And neither of us detains enough evidence to prove their respective theories as being 100% right or wrong!
So what should we do? IF TS said he won't be posting until after the BAM, then we can either continue to contradict ourselves endlessly , we could also leave the forum until the BAM.
OR we could go on talking about other hoax theories, going back, see what we missed/forgot... whatever!
@Snoopy71: what would be your suggestion?
Michael - death threats (FBI) - http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg431152.html#msg431152
LATOYA & FBI - http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg431175.html#msg431175
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg431492.html#msg431492
[ . . .]
I don't see the Illuminati subject as an alternative to the FBI sting. But more like another facet of the cube.
Regarding the subject: DWD patient vs. dummy/live Mj - to me things are clear: both theories are plausible, but I incline to believe DWD patient theory is more valid than the other one.
I believe the FBI is very much involved in Michael's hoax and there are some bad guys to catch, otherwise FBI wouldn't have even bothered!
But that is just one aspect , just one "corridor" of the whole hoax labirint!
Michael's fight against NWO/Illuminati was OBVIOUS both before and even MORE so after June 25th, 2009.
The way I see it... Michael has a lot of highly positioned enemies, but he also has many POWERFUL friends!
At this point, all the managment/political/military/government institutions seem to be dominated/infiltrated with the bad guys (Illuminati/banker-families/bloodline leaders), including FBI, corruption is everywhere...
BUT that does not mean that there aren't some good guys too, willing to help, probably disgusted, sick and tired by the injustice, the conspiracy , the corruption that are installed right now.
Maybe the help that Michael received from the authorities (FBI, police, Justice system) isn't necessarily OFFICIALLy acknowledged in those institutions! Maybe it's done in some camouflaged form, clandestine operation.
IDK, I am just guessing... Maybe that's why things cannot be entirely revealed YET! We are only put on the waiting mode, and given a bit of orientation... If that's true, then what @MjonMind said about this possibly being a STING not only for the media, fans, Justice system, music industry, pharmaceutical industry, BUT also on the corruption inside FBI! SO a sting by the FBI on the FBI!? Wow! Sounds crazy! but not impossible!Quote from: use Your IllusionI mean yes he is one of the biggest stars on the planet with a huge following but these 'secret societies', whatever you want to call them wouldn't tell him anything about their plans even if he was a puppet of theirs.Just like inside government insitutions there can be good guys and bad guys, so it is inside those secret societies!
WHat if all the good people from these organizations decided to form their own "secret society" and act from the shadow against the bad guys!?
How else could anyone beat these bad guys who operate in secrecy, how else could anyone overcome them other than by using their same weapons!? Which means: conspiracy, secrecy, stings, plots, betrayal - ANYTHING that they do for their attorcious purposes, well imagine the good guys using exactly the same "methods" only to expose them, conquer them! V for Vendetta!
I am a dreamer I know! :icon_lol:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg431271.html#msg431271
[ . . . ]
Yes of course, FBI operations are not uniquely/strictly focused on organizing STINGs.
But so far, throughout this hoax, we've seen many signs, clues and also direct hints made by TS and also by the family (LaToya), that at least in this death hoax, the FBI involvement is focused on a STING operation meant to reveal a conspiracy! the word conspiracy had been mentioned countless times by Michael and his family in numerous interviews!!
A conspiracy of that caliber (2 false allegation trials + money extortion + album sabotage - "Invincible" + death threats + media bashing) can only be stopped with the help/involvement of an authority such as FBI and the best "modus-operandi" in such cases is the STING!
TS dedicated 2 levels and several large posts on the subject of FBI and the STING!
I think we should NOT dismiss this as just a mere 'TS-prank/test".
he may have "played' with us here and there, throwing some small false leads to us, to check if we follow that blindly or we use our logic!
But I doubt he had invested so much time and energy on this them (FBI - sting operation) just for all to be a farse for us!
That's why the DWD theory seems to be the most plausible of all! because in such serious case, for such a sting, FBI doesn't "play with dolls/dummies and other weak materials like that! things HAD to be as REAL as possible!!! FBI never leaves place for mistakes! they don't want to compromise the work of so many people (most paid with public money) by working with "plastic-patients" !
PLUS: remember, we still don't have all the subjects targeted by this sting! Who knows what dark affairs FBI intends to uncover/prove/de-conspire through the use of the DWD practice!!
[ . . . ]
I think one important reason for Michael to go out publicly and drop all these conspiracy statements were also to help him gain validity later for the purpose of faking his death!
Therefore either during the hoax or better said after the BAM! he will be able to say:
"Look, people of the world, I had drawn so many alarm signals in the past about what was happening to me!! and YET NO real measure had been taken! I had been ignored and left to deal with those problems by myself! And that's how I decided to fake my death with the help of the FBI! It was the only way to make the hate stop and to bring out the conspiracy-snakes! And since I was being forced to recur to such an extreme method, I also took advantage to make it a FUN incredible experience for my FANS and this way to bring INNOVATION in the entertainment industry! at the same time the FBI having their own share of the whole thing: catching the big sharks from the pharmaceutical industry!"
^^ JMO JMO! JMO!! loll It's just my imagination of how MJ would explain the hoax after the BAM!!
I really can't think of another possible version!!
[....]
I understand why the death hoax/sting is 'against the media" for all the OBVIOUS reasons!
I don't understand why a STING "against the fans"? As if the fans had done something wrong!?
I would understand though a farse/hoax/entertainment side of this whole project, being made FOR US, the fans (hoaxers + deaders) just for the sake of making us experience the adventure of a lifetime , here including the INNOVATION in the entertainment industry!
^^ THAT I can understand and I have NO doubt that IT is INDEED one of the reasons (WHYs) of Michael's death hoax.
But I don't see it as something "against the fans".
Then, moving on... [....]
Are those 2 ^^ really the only reasons of this death hoax? Entertainment and making the media pay for their crap? I doubt it.
This is a much more elaborated plan than just that! He wouldn't have needed 10-20 years to only plan a hoax for the media and his fans.
Things go way deeper and there is ABSOLUTELY a danger-factor (conspiracy, death threat, sting) in it all!
PLUS the following:
1. There is also an environmental factor (Save the Planet, heal the World)
2. There is a humanitarian factor (fund raising, Children's hospital, though all the hoax-products that came out and that will continue to come out even after the BAM!)
3. There is also a cleansing/clearing aspect of Michael's image!
4. There is the aspect of corruption in the Justice System, Music and Pharmaceutic Industries!
5. There is also the FBI aspect who may have 2 major interests in getting involved in this hoax: 1. make light in Michael's case of conspiracy against him and 2. some hidden/top secret purpose that would serve only the government/FBI and that we may probably never find out!
And if I left out other important aspects, pls feel free to add to the list.
Post by: Jowayria on December 07, 2012, 04:19:47 PM
Therefore either during the hoax or better said after the BAM! he will be able to say:
"Look, people of the world, I had drawn so many alarm signals in the past about what was happening to me!! and YET NO real measure had been taken! I had been ignored and left to deal with those problems by myself! And that's how I decided to fake my death with the help of the FBI! It was the only way to make the hate stop and to bring out the conspiracy-snakes! And since I was being forced to recur to such an extreme method, I also took advantage to make it a FUN incredible experience for my FANS and this way to bring INNOVATION in the entertainment industry! at the same time the FBI having their own share of the whole thing: catching the big sharks from the pharmaceutical industry!"
Just imagine Michael saying the very same speech after the Bam ! OMG that would be phenomenally phenomenal !! :woohoo2:
Post by: Snoopy71 on December 07, 2012, 08:09:50 PM
@Snoopy71: you asked how we got to talk about the NWO/Illuminati instead of the DWD-patient theory.
I don't know for others, but regarding me, you have a few quotes below from previous pages!
Then IMO the subject ( DWD patient vs. dummy/live Mj ) is pretty much consumed for now, out of lack of more info and because there are clearly 2 categories of users: those who support one theory and those who support the other one. And neither of us detains enough evidence to prove their respective theories as being 100% right or wrong!
So what should we do? IF TS said he won't be posting until after the BAM, then we can either continue to contradict ourselves endlessly , we could also leave the forum until the BAM.
OR we could go on talking about other hoax theories, going back, see what we missed/forgot... whatever!
@Snoopy71: what would be your suggestion?
Michael - death threats (FBI) - http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg431152.html#msg431152
LATOYA & FBI - http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg431175.html#msg431175
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg431492.html#msg431492
[ . . .]
I don't see the Illuminati subject as an alternative to the FBI sting. But more like another facet of the cube.
Regarding the subject: DWD patient vs. dummy/live Mj - to me things are clear: both theories are plausible, but I incline to believe DWD patient theory is more valid than the other one.
I believe the FBI is very much involved in Michael's hoax and there are some bad guys to catch, otherwise FBI wouldn't have even bothered!
But that is just one aspect , just one "corridor" of the whole hoax labirint!
Michael's fight against NWO/Illuminati was OBVIOUS both before and even MORE so after June 25th, 2009.
The way I see it... Michael has a lot of highly positioned enemies, but he also has many POWERFUL friends!
At this point, all the managment/political/military/government institutions seem to be dominated/infiltrated with the bad guys (Illuminati/banker-families/bloodline leaders), including FBI, corruption is everywhere...
BUT that does not mean that there aren't some good guys too, willing to help, probably disgusted, sick and tired by the injustice, the conspiracy , the corruption that are installed right now.
Maybe the help that Michael received from the authorities (FBI, police, Justice system) isn't necessarily OFFICIALLy acknowledged in those institutions! Maybe it's done in some camouflaged form, clandestine operation.
IDK, I am just guessing... Maybe that's why things cannot be entirely revealed YET! We are only put on the waiting mode, and given a bit of orientation... If that's true, then what @MjonMind said about this possibly being a STING not only for the media, fans, Justice system, music industry, pharmaceutical industry, BUT also on the corruption inside FBI! SO a sting by the FBI on the FBI!? Wow! Sounds crazy! but not impossible!Quote from: use Your IllusionI mean yes he is one of the biggest stars on the planet with a huge following but these 'secret societies', whatever you want to call them wouldn't tell him anything about their plans even if he was a puppet of theirs.Just like inside government insitutions there can be good guys and bad guys, so it is inside those secret societies!
WHat if all the good people from these organizations decided to form their own "secret society" and act from the shadow against the bad guys!?
How else could anyone beat these bad guys who operate in secrecy, how else could anyone overcome them other than by using their same weapons!? Which means: conspiracy, secrecy, stings, plots, betrayal - ANYTHING that they do for their attorcious purposes, well imagine the good guys using exactly the same "methods" only to expose them, conquer them! V for Vendetta!
I am a dreamer I know! :icon_lol:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg431271.html#msg431271
[ . . . ]
Yes of course, FBI operations are not uniquely/strictly focused on organizing STINGs.
But so far, throughout this hoax, we've seen many signs, clues and also direct hints made by TS and also by the family (LaToya), that at least in this death hoax, the FBI involvement is focused on a STING operation meant to reveal a conspiracy! the word conspiracy had been mentioned countless times by Michael and his family in numerous interviews!!
A conspiracy of that caliber (2 false allegation trials + money extortion + album sabotage - "Invincible" + death threats + media bashing) can only be stopped with the help/involvement of an authority such as FBI and the best "modus-operandi" in such cases is the STING!
TS dedicated 2 levels and several large posts on the subject of FBI and the STING!
I think we should NOT dismiss this as just a mere 'TS-prank/test".
he may have "played' with us here and there, throwing some small false leads to us, to check if we follow that blindly or we use our logic!
But I doubt he had invested so much time and energy on this them (FBI - sting operation) just for all to be a farse for us!
That's why the DWD theory seems to be the most plausible of all! because in such serious case, for such a sting, FBI doesn't "play with dolls/dummies and other weak materials like that! things HAD to be as REAL as possible!!! FBI never leaves place for mistakes! they don't want to compromise the work of so many people (most paid with public money) by working with "plastic-patients" !
PLUS: remember, we still don't have all the subjects targeted by this sting! Who knows what dark affairs FBI intends to uncover/prove/de-conspire through the use of the DWD practice!!
[ . . . ]
I think one important reason for Michael to go out publicly and drop all these conspiracy statements were also to help him gain validity later for the purpose of faking his death!
Therefore either during the hoax or better said after the BAM! he will be able to say:
"Look, people of the world, I had drawn so many alarm signals in the past about what was happening to me!! and YET NO real measure had been taken! I had been ignored and left to deal with those problems by myself! And that's how I decided to fake my death with the help of the FBI! It was the only way to make the hate stop and to bring out the conspiracy-snakes! And since I was being forced to recur to such an extreme method, I also took advantage to make it a FUN incredible experience for my FANS and this way to bring INNOVATION in the entertainment industry! at the same time the FBI having their own share of the whole thing: catching the big sharks from the pharmaceutical industry!"
^^ JMO JMO! JMO!! loll It's just my imagination of how MJ would explain the hoax after the BAM!!
I really can't think of another possible version!!
[....]
I understand why the death hoax/sting is 'against the media" for all the OBVIOUS reasons!
I don't understand why a STING "against the fans"? As if the fans had done something wrong!?
I would understand though a farse/hoax/entertainment side of this whole project, being made FOR US, the fans (hoaxers + deaders) just for the sake of making us experience the adventure of a lifetime , here including the INNOVATION in the entertainment industry!
^^ THAT I can understand and I have NO doubt that IT is INDEED one of the reasons (WHYs) of Michael's death hoax.
But I don't see it as something "against the fans".
Then, moving on... [....]
Are those 2 ^^ really the only reasons of this death hoax? Entertainment and making the media pay for their crap? I doubt it.
This is a much more elaborated plan than just that! He wouldn't have needed 10-20 years to only plan a hoax for the media and his fans.
Things go way deeper and there is ABSOLUTELY a danger-factor (conspiracy, death threat, sting) in it all!
PLUS the following:
1. There is also an environmental factor (Save the Planet, heal the World)
2. There is a humanitarian factor (fund raising, Children's hospital, though all the hoax-products that came out and that will continue to come out even after the BAM!)
3. There is also a cleansing/clearing aspect of Michael's image!
4. There is the aspect of corruption in the Justice System, Music and Pharmaceutic Industries!
5. There is also the FBI aspect who may have 2 major interests in getting involved in this hoax: 1. make light in Michael's case of conspiracy against him and 2. some hidden/top secret purpose that would serve only the government/FBI and that we may probably never find out!
And if I left out other important aspects, pls feel free to add to the list.
@SimPatty...to be honest, I've been away from forum sooooo long for me to offer a suggestion or opinion at this point would be downright criminal (not to mention extremely ignorant on my part). (I know better than to try to speak on something I have absolutely no clue about, especially regarding recent discoveries and research), for I'm sure I would be swiftly & severely corrected for attempting to do so.
At this point I wouldn't even remember what I commented on on any given topic in the past, so please forgive my confusion. :icon_redface:
The information you gave is a good place for me to start again, Thank You!
....I see I have quite a bit of catching up to do this weekend :icon_eek:
Post by: Adi on December 07, 2012, 09:21:06 PM
Quote
Paris JacksoηVerified
@ParisJackson
change comes from thinking thoughts you've never thought before and showing up to meet them down streets you've never walked before .
https://twitter.com/ParisJackson/status/277231608971550720
I have taken a screen shot of it too but don't know how to paste it here.
Post by: Andrea on December 07, 2012, 09:55:50 PM
@Adi - for screenshots, upload the image to hoaxpic http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxbook/simplepage/hoaxpic-uploader then copy pic url and place in the image brackets like you would with a normal internet pic.
Post by: onthewingsoflove on December 08, 2012, 12:38:18 AM
From the day I registered on this forum to now, I never got into any of this stuff, I usually let things just go by because its easy to say something on the internet when you're not directly talking to the person face to face, which makes it common for arguments and disagreements to go back and forth and that's not the way I do things.
It baffles me to see the lack of consistency on this forum. Although I am all for different opinions and discussions of different sides and ideas, some of the thinking that is put out on here is completely lopsided.
Just by being on here is a claim that we are open minded yet some of us ridicule others for their open-mindedness on a particular subject. People complain about being mistreated and ridiculed by unbelievers because you believe MJ is alive, yet you do the very same thing you are against. Tell me what is wrong with this picture? It surprises me to see the constant contradiction and hypocrisy. Yeah sure have your opinion but a little respect would be of benefit. I don't care what anyone's opinion is, the only problem I have with an opinion is where that comment is coming from.
I mean how did some people make it this far on a board like this, it is as open minded as you can get. I mean we've heard it all before with the unbelievers ridiculing our theories so it gets kinda old when forum members do it to, if we didn't get so much already, I mean really.
The way I see it is that the root of the problem is what people think of MJ. You see it with unbelievers, they despise the idea that MJ faked his death, it's almost like poison in their mouth every time you speak of it. And yet on top of that their only reasons are...'because he would do that to his fans', 'because he wouldn't do that to his children' etc. Same here, yeah MJ might have know the main details of 9/11 or he might only know some of it or maybe even none of it, but what is stopping some people to explore those option, is it your preconceived notion of MJ?...like BTC said (great post by the way, in fact a lot of great posts) 'I'd rather be way off base in investigating something....than to be ignorant.'
The fact of the matter is, I get the feeling (and I could be way off) is that some people see MJ as the pure/innocent and perfect human being in every way. Forget what you think you knew or thought you knew, take in what you now should know and make room to discover the man you never knew. Because I have some breaking news for you...no one ever really knew the man.
Finally I will say this, believe what you want to believe, have your say but also have some manners so as to not compromise or forfeit the respect that other members give to you. Nothing is more destructive to morale than lack of respect.
That is all I will say on the matter.
I love this post use_your_illusion!! I could not have said it better!
It echos much of what I have said in the past especially the fact that as you said, "no one ever really knew the man." !!!!!
Stay blessed!
OnTheWingsOfLove
Post by: ellyd on December 08, 2012, 01:21:07 AM
Quote
R39. Michael’s Army of L.O.V.E.
http://www.mtv.com/photos/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-frames/1621244/4251494/photo.jhtml (http://www.mtv.com/photos/michael-jacksons-this-is-it-trailer-frames/1621244/4251494/photo.jhtml)
This clue was one of the still shots, from the TII trailer; specifically, an army of soldiers, with an “M” in the center of the background (Michael’s army). Take a look at a close up picture of the soldiers, and you will see that they are not carrying guns or weapons
In this, I have to oppose once more. A close look reveals that the arc does not have the shape of an "M" but the shape of a "P1" which is a known abbreviation in military, digital photography, bible studies and entertainment technology.
P1 points to "global" as military batches are referring to WWII.
Just for the fun of mentioning it, there's this one with a sizzeling mission on a nine star sun and green background:
(http://thmb.inkfrog.com/thumbn/RockyCockatoo/9th_Coastal_Defense_District.JPG=600)
My interpretation of the arc is that P1 army should become a global movement, not MJ's fan movement.
We are talking BIG mission.
Fans will not be believed and the mission is likely to fail. We need "normal" John Does off the street to join P1.
Why TS mentioned obviously false details remains open for any interpretation.
In the end all that counts is what we understand, not who said what.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 08, 2012, 01:43:38 AM
Interesting tweet from Paris today (12-7-12) considering the recent discussion in this thread the past few pages:Here it is
QuoteParis JacksoηVerified @ParisJacksonhttps://twitter.com/ParisJackson/status/277231608971550720
change comes from thinking thoughts you've never thought before and showing up to meet them down streets you've never walked before .
I have taken a screen shot of it too but don't know how to paste it here.
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/paristwit.jpg)
Yeah ADI, I saw her twit last night before going to bed and thought exactly as you!
She talks about new thoughts... new streets.... reminded me of what I wrote about exploring "new fields/territory and new knowledge...." :icon_e_wink:
'I'd rather be way off base in investigating something....than to be ignorant.'IMO there's no irony to that statement.
The irony of this statement is that if one is 'way off base', then one is fundamentally 'ignorant', in the sense of lacking accurate knowledge![...]
It just simply says one should have the courage to explore many fields , even if some of them will take you to a dead end (being "way off base").
But some will take you to NEW fields, NEW knowledge!
The risk of remaining ignorant equals with just staying in that one safe "comfortable" place - being afraid/reluctant to go to an unknown territory.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 08, 2012, 06:16:30 AM
Sim, I agree with you. Actually Scripture says that "by their fruits you shall know them", whether they be good or evil. Though MJ or any person for that matter, does the secret symbols or is a member is not the key thing. We are ALL part of the system, just lower down, whether we think we are or not--we are born into it. All history is part of it, and I mean ALL. Also it doesn't mean there not are struggles going on ALL the time within all of these secret structures, divisions. And sometimes the secret societies deliberately set up 2 sides that fight against each other--elections are one example, or labor against management, etc.
BTCQuoteNone of this is 'fiction'....there is a TON of documented evidence that these 'secret societies' exist...and have existed for a very long time. There are also MANY signs/clues BOTH prior to June 25th and after, that Mike was WELL aware of them and may have also been a member (clothing, pins, paintings, symbols, etc). IF there was ever a plan to 'overthrow' the inner-circle (the 'bad' side), the best (and probably only) way to do so would be through infiltration...or, in other words, a sting.
It also could easily be argued that Jesus was a much earlier Mason. Throughout his teaching, there is one teaching for the masses, and a withheld teaching just for the ‘initiates’ or 12 disciples. There has always been levels, and coded messages and numerology. Quote:
http://www.masoncode.com/Jesus%20Christ%20Master%20Mason.htmQuoteIn early Christianity there were two parts of the Church, the exoteric Church and the esoteric Church (or Gnostic Church). The former was open to everyone, the latter was a form of mystery religion with secret rites and initiation ceremonies.
In that same sense here on the forum, TS is the ‘master’ teacher and we are the initiates, learning things hidden from the masses and even the vast majority of MJ fans.
There is another reason WHY there is numerology behind TPTB (including Illuminati, FreeMasons, other secret societies, most world religions), because there is one God behind it all. He has created ALL things, whether evil or good. There are many Scripture verses that prove this. He has written it all in the stars seen from earth, guided the thoughts/minds of his chosen—good or evil to fulfill his purposes—fulfill His story-line—HISstory.QuoteBut damn...I want a BAM!!!!!
That has a nice ring to it! That could be our mantra!
Loved your comparison of 'master'/initiates :icon_razz:
@Sim...thanks for reposting some of TS' posts, it's great to reread them now....they 'fit' better now, in my mind anyway, than they have in the past.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: BeTheChange on December 08, 2012, 06:21:10 AM
Interesting tweet from Paris today (12-7-12) considering the recent discussion in this thread the past few pages:
Quote
Paris JacksoηVerified
@ParisJackson
change comes from thinking thoughts you've never thought before and showing up to meet them down streets you've never walked before .
https://twitter.com/ParisJackson/status/277231608971550720
I have taken a screen shot of it too but don't know how to paste it here.
Nice! Love that....very wise words :icon_razz:
Thanks for sharing Adi.
With L.O.V.E. always.
Post by: Adi on December 08, 2012, 07:33:38 AM
& thanks Sim for posting a screen shot :)
Post by: SimPattyK on December 08, 2012, 07:34:57 AM
Post by: ellyd on December 08, 2012, 07:54:27 AM
Quote
It also could easily be argued that Jesus was a much earlier Mason. Throughout his teaching, there is one teaching for the masses, and a withheld teaching just for the ‘initiates’ or 12 disciples. There has always been levels, and coded messages and numerology.
There are always "inner circles" and "the masses" in whatever undertaking is being set on a slide.
A healthy organization cannot work otherwise. It is natural. Compare this to a hot water spring if you like. Water close to the source will always be hotter thus more impacted by the origin.
If a human organization wants to minimize effectiveness loss and keep their impact on people who aren't close to the initiator, you have to multiply the hot spot.
Jesus was the first effective "conspirational networker" if you like.
(http://uploads.mattersolutions.com.au/2012/11/networking.jpg)
The more followers, the longer the distance to the center, the more of the original message gets lost.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6nBJ3yc-kL6lSP-ztnltj-GY88OXFP0erokaZ3oE0i8EpDsWYHA)
This is why social networks are so important if you don't want to lose contact, impact and potential for influence.
(http://www.adviatech.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/social_network.jpg)
If you keep important heads close, thus keep the message path short and effective, you may reach 1) more people with 2) more effective communication and 3) lower risk the message gets lost due to counter activities.
(http://www.gritandglamour.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Multiplier.jpg?9d7bd4)
No matter if you organize a charity barbecue or a concert - there will always those "in the know" and visitors / spectators stopping by.
Both are required to make the event a success.
This hoax organization isn't any different.
Post by: Loveunited on December 08, 2012, 11:26:57 AM
QuoteIt also could easily be argued that Jesus was a much earlier Mason. Throughout his teaching, there is one teaching for the masses, and a withheld teaching just for the ‘initiates’ or 12 disciples. There has always been levels, and coded messages and numerology.
There are always "inner circles" and "the masses" in whatever undertaking is being set on a slide.
A healthy organization cannot work otherwise. It is natural. Compare this to a hot water spring if you like. Water close to the source will always be hotter thus more impacted by the origin.
If a human organization wants to minimize effectiveness loss and keep their impact on people who aren't close to the initiator, you have to multiply the hot spot.
Jesus was the first effective "conspirational networker" if you like.
(http://uploads.mattersolutions.com.au/2012/11/networking.jpg)
The more followers, the longer the distance to the center, the more of the original message gets lost.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6nBJ3yc-kL6lSP-ztnltj-GY88OXFP0erokaZ3oE0i8EpDsWYHA)
This is why social networks are so important if you don't want to lose contact, impact and potential for influence.
(http://www.adviatech.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/social_network.jpg)
If you keep important heads close, thus keep the message path short and effective, you may reach 1) more people with 2) more effective communication and 3) lower risk the message gets lost due to counter activities.
(http://www.gritandglamour.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Multiplier.jpg?9d7bd4)
No matter if you organize a charity barbecue or a concert - there will always those "in the know" and visitors / spectators stopping by.
Both are required to make the event a success.
This hoax organization isn't any different.
Brilliant post Ellyd; so very useful :th_bravo:
Post by: MJonmind on December 09, 2012, 05:16:56 AM
Quote
#13. Explains why MJ’s kids stopped crying when they were done seeing their dad’s body, the scene as described by LaToya. They stopped crying because they saw Dad’s not dead.TS
Quote
#13. This is a very interesting point. It indicates that the children were not initially in on the hoax, and therefore would react with real emotions—which would be very convincing for anyone at the house, and at UCLA, etc. This also explains why La Toya said MJ told Paris, on 6-24-09, what to do if he died; there would be no point in MJ saying this, if Paris already knew about the hoax for the next day. Both La Toya and Katherine said that the children never cried again, after seeing MJ in the hospital (so much for Paris crying on stage at the memorial); so this would be when they were informed of the hoax. And seeing MJ alive at UCLA would certainly stop their tears; but there is another possibility which would also stop their tears: seeing that it was a different MJ who died (as well as family members explaining the hoax to them, at that point). Oh, and one last thing here: if live MJ was on the bed at Carolwood (playing sick), or even a dummy, why did Alvarez rush the children back out of the bedroom almost before they finished entering it—what were they NOT supposed to see up close?
I was just thinking, that if none of the kids knew, and Alvarez shoed them out at the door, with them not seeing their dad or DWD with life-saving equipment, they would have at that point still thought their dad was only having trouble but not dead. At the hospital they still might have only gotten the message from those that were with them, that he was going to be alright. Perhaps at UCLA they starting hearing things being said by other people that Michael was dead, and that got them worried and really crying, but then I'm thinking that within maybe a 1/2 hour Latoya would take them in to see the DWD and tell them their Daddy hoaxed his death. What do you guys think? How do you envision it happening with the kids finding out, and how much time they actually were thinking their dad could actually be dead? That would have been horrible for them, agony, even if brief. We had been told early on that Blanket was told his daddy was on a business trip, so how would that fit in here?
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 09, 2012, 06:02:39 AM
BecQuote#13. Explains why MJ’s kids stopped crying when they were done seeing their dad’s body, the scene as described by LaToya. They stopped crying because they saw Dad’s not dead.TSQuote#13. This is a very interesting point. It indicates that the children were not initially in on the hoax, and therefore would react with real emotions—which would be very convincing for anyone at the house, and at UCLA, etc. This also explains why La Toya said MJ told Paris, on 6-24-09, what to do if he died; there would be no point in MJ saying this, if Paris already knew about the hoax for the next day. Both La Toya and Katherine said that the children never cried again, after seeing MJ in the hospital (so much for Paris crying on stage at the memorial); so this would be when they were informed of the hoax. And seeing MJ alive at UCLA would certainly stop their tears; but there is another possibility which would also stop their tears: seeing that it was a different MJ who died (as well as family members explaining the hoax to them, at that point). Oh, and one last thing here: if live MJ was on the bed at Carolwood (playing sick), or even a dummy, why did Alvarez rush the children back out of the bedroom almost before they finished entering it—what were they NOT supposed to see up close?
I was just thinking, that if none of the kids knew, and Alvarez shoed them out at the door, with them not seeing their dad or DWD with life-saving equipment, they would have at that point still thought their dad was only having trouble but not dead. At the hospital they still might have only gotten the message from those that were with them, that he was going to be alright. Perhaps at UCLA they starting hearing things being said by other people that Michael was dead, and that got them worried and really crying, but then I'm thinking that within maybe a 1/2 hour Latoya would take them in to see the DWD and tell them their Daddy hoaxed his death. What do you guys think? How do you envision it happening with the kids finding out, and how much time they actually were thinking their dad could actually be dead? That would have been horrible for them, agony, even if brief. We had been told early on that Blanket was told his daddy was on a business trip, so how would that fit in here?
That's what I think MJonmind, Latoya might have told the kids that MJ faked his death, while the two elder kids would get it, blanket was too young to be told of these, so blanket could have been told that his dad was on a holiday.
But the other side of it is, Latoya might not even have taken the kids into the room. Whatever she said on the Piers Morgan show about kids stopped crying could've been a story, something totally made up. Maybe that was a clue for us, the believers. Because I've read in some websites, that Michael would tell Paris to take care of her brothers, and that he might not be there around father's day. So it can be possible that the kids know beforehand of Michael's plan and only Blanket was unknown. The kids may or may not have been taken into the hospital room and, if taken, it could've been to explain blanket that the man lying was not his father and that his father was on a trip...
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 09, 2012, 04:12:21 PM
ps. I couldn't log into the forum for many hours, around 19 hours (I don't know if during my sleep time I was able or not, lol cause I was sleeping), what about you?
Post by: Andrea on December 09, 2012, 04:16:06 PM
BecQuote#13. Explains why MJ’s kids stopped crying when they were done seeing their dad’s body, the scene as described by LaToya. They stopped crying because they saw Dad’s not dead.TSQuote#13. This is a very interesting point. It indicates that the children were not initially in on the hoax, and therefore would react with real emotions—which would be very convincing for anyone at the house, and at UCLA, etc. This also explains why La Toya said MJ told Paris, on 6-24-09, what to do if he died; there would be no point in MJ saying this, if Paris already knew about the hoax for the next day. Both La Toya and Katherine said that the children never cried again, after seeing MJ in the hospital (so much for Paris crying on stage at the memorial); so this would be when they were informed of the hoax. And seeing MJ alive at UCLA would certainly stop their tears; but there is another possibility which would also stop their tears: seeing that it was a different MJ who died (as well as family members explaining the hoax to them, at that point). Oh, and one last thing here: if live MJ was on the bed at Carolwood (playing sick), or even a dummy, why did Alvarez rush the children back out of the bedroom almost before they finished entering it—what were they NOT supposed to see up close?
I was just thinking, that if none of the kids knew, and Alvarez shoed them out at the door, with them not seeing their dad or DWD with life-saving equipment, they would have at that point still thought their dad was only having trouble but not dead. At the hospital they still might have only gotten the message from those that were with them, that he was going to be alright. Perhaps at UCLA they starting hearing things being said by other people that Michael was dead, and that got them worried and really crying, but then I'm thinking that within maybe a 1/2 hour Latoya would take them in to see the DWD and tell them their Daddy hoaxed his death. What do you guys think? How do you envision it happening with the kids finding out, and how much time they actually were thinking their dad could actually be dead? That would have been horrible for them, agony, even if brief. We had been told early on that Blanket was told his daddy was on a business trip, so how would that fit in here?
I think Alvarez would've rushed the kids away because that would be expected in that situation. Of course the kids would want to know what's going on with their dad but to have them in the room while whatever was going on wouldn't make sense. Getting them out of the room quickly is best, it leaves less for them to witness. If they had seen more, it's possible that they could've been called upon as witnesses during the trial. Which they almost were, apparently, at least Prince. If, for example, live MJ was on the bed then floor pretending to be in distress/dead (for accurate accounts of witnesses later) that could be a distressing thing for the kids to see, even if they knew it was fake. Whatever was going on in that room, the kids didn't need to be there. Blanket would've been too young to really understand what was going on. I think Prince and Paris knew what was going on and acted according to the plan. Children are highly emotional and know how to make a "scene". Same goes for at the hospital.
I don't see how the kids could really believe their dad died, then be ok and stop crying by seeing it's a DWD patient dead and not their dad. Seeing a real dead body would make them feel better?? That's the sort of vision that would haunt a child a night. That scenario just doesn't ring true for me. Sure there would be relief that a dead body is not their dad's dead body but still, why put them through that? I don't know. Even if they weren't told of MJ's plans beforehand, they would've been told as soon as possible, for their sake.
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 09, 2012, 04:37:57 PM
Post by: paula-c on December 09, 2012, 06:15:30 PM
Post by: hesouttamylife on December 09, 2012, 06:42:09 PM
Post by: voiceforthesilent on December 09, 2012, 06:50:28 PM
We’ve come this far, and we ARE going forward as a tight-knit group who love each other after 4 years. And we do! That’s all I have to say about that. He's counting on us.
HesQuoteJust because you read it in a magazine (in this case book) or see it on a movie screen don’t make it actual, factual. Michael told us that years ago and judging on books, mags, articles I’ve seen, reviewed, read of late, he nailed it.You know, with all the books on MJ that have come out, and especially T Mesereau speaking in support of Sullivan’s controversial book, I believe each of the books likely have some falsehoods and half-truths. How do you get out information to a general population with evil people reading everything too to silence it? You hide truths amongst the garbage they are used to, just so they’ll pick it up and read it. Like I said before, it's called infiltration and camoflage tactics.
Well said! People (outside of MJ fans) aren't going to read this if it's only good news but if you mix the truth with a little fiction it will help ensure the truth to be read. It's like giving a little sugar with the medicine to help it go down a little smoother. If only the truth was written won't people dismiss it all and say that it was a biased and untruthful account of MJ? This way they aren't able to say that he is being biased yet the worst offenses are being dealt with.
Hugs
Post by: paula-c on December 09, 2012, 07:03:56 PM
How do you explain to children at these ages that a DWD is going to die for their father so he can hoax his own death? I can’t imagine that scenario.
Perhaps they told after, ..i don't know there are so many things without explanation :confused:
Post by: bec on December 09, 2012, 07:21:54 PM
Parents of young children don't even miss a recital much less a performance yet we are to accept that MJ hopped a plane outa there while his kids acted out the death scene without him on 6/25/09?
Why didn't that occur to me a month ago? No idea.
Post by: MaryK on December 09, 2012, 07:34:16 PM
Another question, why were the children even there if MJ wasn't and a DWD patient was? I don't see that they played any direct role on 6/25/09 that necessitated their presence on the "set". They could have been visiting Grandma or at Karate class or out shopping with Aunty LaToya or whatever-- they didn't need to be there. I don't think MJ would leave them to their debut acting roles in this sort of scenario alone, without him standing by.
Parents of young children don't even miss a recital much less a performance yet we are to accept that MJ hopped a plane outa there while his kids acted out the death scene without him on 6/25/09?
Why didn't that occur to me a month ago? No idea.
bec I said the exact same thing on some thread a while ago.
As a mother I can´t imagine (not even for a second) him doing that.
Post by: bec on December 09, 2012, 07:41:25 PM
Another question, why were the children even there if MJ wasn't and a DWD patient was? I don't see that they played any direct role on 6/25/09 that necessitated their presence on the "set". They could have been visiting Grandma or at Karate class or out shopping with Aunty LaToya or whatever-- they didn't need to be there. I don't think MJ would leave them to their debut acting roles in this sort of scenario alone, without him standing by.
Parents of young children don't even miss a recital much less a performance yet we are to accept that MJ hopped a plane outa there while his kids acted out the death scene without him on 6/25/09?
Why didn't that occur to me a month ago? No idea.
bec I said the exact same thing on some thread a while ago.
As a mother I can´t imagine (not even for a second) him doing that.
I'm sorry I missed it. We should have added it to the list for LiveMJ. It's a good reason. It's an especially good reason if MJ felt threatened in some way. If people wanted to get to MJ but can't, they could take his kids. Imagine they show up somewhere and see it's not MJ on that stretcher. The kids would become a kidnap target to flush him out.
Post by: MaryK on December 09, 2012, 08:15:29 PM
Another question, why were the children even there if MJ wasn't and a DWD patient was? I don't see that they played any direct role on 6/25/09 that necessitated their presence on the "set". They could have been visiting Grandma or at Karate class or out shopping with Aunty LaToya or whatever-- they didn't need to be there. I don't think MJ would leave them to their debut acting roles in this sort of scenario alone, without him standing by.
Parents of young children don't even miss a recital much less a performance yet we are to accept that MJ hopped a plane outa there while his kids acted out the death scene without him on 6/25/09?
Why didn't that occur to me a month ago? No idea.
bec I said the exact same thing on some thread a while ago.
As a mother I can´t imagine (not even for a second) him doing that.
I'm sorry I missed it. We should have added it to the list for LiveMJ. It's a good reason. It's an especially good reason if MJ felt threatened in some way. If people wanted to get to MJ but can't, they could take his kids. Imagine they show up somewhere and see it's not MJ on that stretcher. The kids would become a kidnap target to flush him out.
Never mind, it was in a different context I think.
But you have a point there!
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on December 09, 2012, 11:16:47 PM
Some great posts the past week. Have read a few pages briefly, looking fwd to making a few comments, which I will do tonight after I have read them more thoroughly.
In the meantime, just one quick comment until I read all posts properly, JMO but from looking & zooming at larger pics of CM with Masonary neck collar, I believe the picture is a fake and the collar has been shopped in.
Post by: MJonmind on December 10, 2012, 12:50:12 AM
Apparently the site was down today--was it for maintenance--does anyone know?
Mary and Bec, I agree with you guys. Circus performers, traveling musicians, or many intense occupations, involve their children from a young age, hoping they’ll continue the family business. The Jacksons are an entertainment family and would no doubt have explained what their role had been and continues in the public eye. Paris said she and her dad had done improve together.
How many people speak of seeing the kids there at UCLA, or is it one of those stories that doesn’t need verification? Alverez, Murray, Kai Chase, and Latoya (all in on the hoax) were the only ones I can think of to say the kids were there if they weren’t. The public, EMT, UCLA could all assume the kids were well guarded and just didn’t happen to see them that day. So, could they have hopped that plane with MJ early morning, or perhaps more in line with what TS is saying-- been whisked away immediately after the UCLA viewing and drama to where Daddy was for a few days. Remember the next day KJ was out buying 4 sleeping bags. Hmmm… I always thought that number 4 was interesting and maybe a deliberate clue. TS said the family always gave us true clues (except for Joe and doubles in TII), so this must be important. MJ & PPB bunking down at Neverland for a few days, nice little camping trip while the whole world is going crazy. I bet they would have loved that! TS said MJ flew possibly to another country or another location in the US, which still could be nearby Neverland.
Post by: curls on December 10, 2012, 02:49:28 AM
Another question, why were the children even there if MJ wasn't and a DWD patient was? I don't see that they played any direct role on 6/25/09 that necessitated their presence on the "set". They could have been visiting Grandma or at Karate class or out shopping with Aunty LaToya or whatever-- they didn't need to be there. I don't think MJ would leave them to their debut acting roles in this sort of scenario alone, without him standing by.
Parents of young children don't even miss a recital much less a performance yet we are to accept that MJ hopped a plane outa there while his kids acted out the death scene without him on 6/25/09?
Why didn't that occur to me a month ago? No idea.
Thing is, if we go with a 'kids-didn't-know-beforehand' scenario, then they wouldn't be acting - they'd simply be reacting to events as they happened. And if we're going with a DWD patient scenario, then there isn't even a 'set' - it's real.
So MJ left, with or without the kids knowing he'd gone, leaving them to witness or simply be in proximity to the death of a DWD patient they either knew as such, or thought was their dad. Sounds pretty traumatic whichever way you look at it. Far better, as you said, to have the kids "visiting Grandma or at Karate class or out shopping with Aunty LaToya or whatever"
But then if MJ didn't have a say in events that day, who knows? Difficult though it is, we have to keep in mind that what any of us think would be the most sensible or logical way for this thing to have happened doesn't make it how it DID happen. We have to toss common sense and logic out of the window and look purely at hard evidence, and there's precious little of that from where I'm sitting!
Post by: paula-c on December 10, 2012, 09:57:42 AM
Post by: suspicious mind on December 10, 2012, 10:34:15 AM
We’ve come this far, and we ARE going forward as a tight-knit group who love each other after 4 years. And we do! That’s all I have to say about that. He's counting on us.
HesQuoteJust because you read it in a magazine (in this case book) or see it on a movie screen don’t make it actual, factual. Michael told us that years ago and judging on books, mags, articles I’ve seen, reviewed, read of late, he nailed it.You know, with all the books on MJ that have come out, and especially T Mesereau speaking in support of Sullivan’s controversial book, I believe each of the books likely have some falsehoods and half-truths. How do you get out information to a general population with evil people reading everything too to silence it? You hide truths amongst the garbage they are used to, just so they’ll pick it up and read it. Like I said before, it's called infiltration and camoflage tactics.
Well said! People (outside of MJ fans) aren't going to read this if it's only good news but if you mix the truth with a little fiction it will help ensure the truth to be read. It's like giving a little sugar with the medicine to help it go down a little smoother. If only the truth was written won't people dismiss it all and say that it was a biased and untruthful account of MJ? This way they aren't able to say that he is being biased yet the worst offenses are being dealt with.
Hugs
perhaps mr. sullivan's book is a bit of a small miracle in all this, that he set out to do one thing and did another. ( thinking of lee stroble's a case for christ )
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 10, 2012, 10:47:50 AM
What do you mean suspicious?
Post by: bec on December 10, 2012, 10:52:47 AM
Another question, why were the children even there if MJ wasn't and a DWD patient was? I don't see that they played any direct role on 6/25/09 that necessitated their presence on the "set". They could have been visiting Grandma or at Karate class or out shopping with Aunty LaToya or whatever-- they didn't need to be there. I don't think MJ would leave them to their debut acting roles in this sort of scenario alone, without him standing by.
Parents of young children don't even miss a recital much less a performance yet we are to accept that MJ hopped a plane outa there while his kids acted out the death scene without him on 6/25/09?
Why didn't that occur to me a month ago? No idea.
Thing is, if we go with a 'kids-didn't-know-beforehand' scenario, then they wouldn't be acting - they'd simply be reacting to events as they happened. And if we're going with a DWD patient scenario, then there isn't even a 'set' - it's real.
So MJ left, with or without the kids knowing he'd gone, leaving them to witness or simply be in proximity to the death of a DWD patient they either knew as such, or thought was their dad. Sounds pretty traumatic whichever way you look at it. Far better, as you said, to have the kids "visiting Grandma or at Karate class or out shopping with Aunty LaToya or whatever"
But then if MJ didn't have a say in events that day, who knows? Difficult though it is, we have to keep in mind that what any of us think would be the most sensible or logical way for this thing to have happened doesn't make it how it DID happen. We have to toss common sense and logic out of the window and look purely at hard evidence, and there's precious little of that from where I'm sitting!
You are 100% right about that, curls, that's for sure.
Post by: ellyd on December 10, 2012, 12:51:40 PM
As to June 25, there is no evidence we can be sure of, not in the house, not at UCLA.
Quote
Michael Jackson's children cried as they watched Dr. Conrad Murray attempt to revive the king of pop's lifeless body in the bedroom of Jackson's rented mansion, the head of Jackson's security team testified today at Murray's manslaughter trial. [...] "Immediately, I was shocked just seeing him. Shortly after that, I realized that his children were standing outside of his room … the two older ones," Muhammad said.
"Paris was on the ground balled up crying and Prince ... was standing there … and he just had a real shocked, just slowly crying type of look on his face," he said.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-trial-kids-prince-paris-cried-conrad/story?id=14623265 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-trial-kids-prince-paris-cried-conrad/story?id=14623265)
Quote
It was a scene of unimaginable heartbreak. Amid the circus that surrounded Michael Jackson, three children sat in a cold anteroom off a neon-lit hospital corridor, waiting anxiously for news of their father.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195985/No-Daddy-No-screamed-Michael-Jacksons-children-manager-broke-news-death.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195985/No-Daddy-No-screamed-Michael-Jacksons-children-manager-broke-news-death.html)
As Michael Jackson’s manager Frank DiLeo walked down the white linoleum-tiled floor, he knew he had to impart the most devastating news of his life.
Walking into the family waiting room at the UCLA Medical Centre, DiLeo was greeted by the sight of Michael Jackson’s three children – Prince Michael, 12, Paris, 11, and seven-year-old Prince Michael II.
[...]
‘Michael’s mother Katherine was with them. They were waiting there together for news.
I call both "dramaturgical paintings adding artificial dynamics to a relatively simple, lonesome death / hospital scene", but I don't call both descriptions the truth. If the agency had the lead that day, for sure MJ had the lead as to his kids. Kids at UCLA means MJ was there.
However, we saw Lady Katherine arrive alone at UCLA. Who brought the kids along? The bodyguards were where the stretcher was. No photo I recall that showed the kids at UCLA.
I'd say they were with Daddy that day under agency protection while the bodyguards acted "as if" they accompanied MJ but he and the kids were not at UCLA. Unless my memory is playing jokes on me, lol.
Looking at acting, only in April 2011, Paris and Prince were officially (reported by the media) going to acting classes. However, putting them on stage began much earlier - not any different from any other parents who love to see others admire their kids.
Very cute and so well organized (and in this organizational level this little program exceeds by far what parents and nursery schools usually prepare with their kids)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmfmkSl0C4[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmfmkSl0C4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmfmkSl0C4)
There is a history of acting and getting used to the public eye for MJ's kids. All great artists start early. MJ's kids needed protection in addition. That's why the veils and masks were removed and the kids were made public figures on stage as of 2008.
Much we did not know and still don't know.
Post by: SimPattyK on December 10, 2012, 02:19:47 PM
Post by: suspicious mind on December 10, 2012, 04:19:08 PM
What if MJ's children were just doubles and the real ones were out of that scenario? After all with the children being in the house the story would look more real because I don't believe for a second that MJ's children have passed through something so painful only for the sake of his father hoax unless Michael told them in advance and what was on that stretcher was a dummy.lee went into this book project as an atheist attempting to disprove Christianity and came out of it a christian . :icon_e_wink:
What do you mean suspicious?
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 11, 2012, 08:13:01 AM
Another question, why were the children even there if MJ wasn't and a DWD patient was? I don't see that they played any direct role on 6/25/09 that necessitated their presence on the "set". They could have been visiting Grandma or at Karate class or out shopping with Aunty LaToya or whatever-- they didn't need to be there. I don't think MJ would leave them to their debut acting roles in this sort of scenario alone, without him standing by.
Parents of young children don't even miss a recital much less a performance yet we are to accept that MJ hopped a plane outa there while his kids acted out the death scene without him on 6/25/09?
Why didn't that occur to me a month ago? No idea.
That's what I said in my post earlier:
That's what I think MJonmind, Latoya might have told the kids that MJ faked his death, while the two elder kids would get it, blanket was too young to be told of these, so blanket could have been told that his dad was on a holiday.
But the other side of it is, Latoya might not even have taken the kids into the room. Whatever she said on the Piers Morgan show about kids stopped crying could've been a story, something totally made up. Maybe that was a clue for us, the believers. Because I've read in some websites, that Michael would tell Paris to take care of her brothers, and that he might not be there around father's day. So it can be possible that the kids know beforehand of Michael's plan and only Blanket was unknown. The kids may or may not have been taken into the hospital room and, if taken, it could've been to explain blanket that the man lying was not his father and that his father was on a trip...
Post by: curls on December 11, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Post by: SimPattyK on December 11, 2012, 03:17:39 PM
Off-topic but seeing as this is the 11.11.11 thread I thought I'd mention that it's 12.12.12 tomorrow! I just think it's a really cool date, nothing else intended!YEP!! Let's hope!! :icon_bounce:
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 11, 2012, 03:20:37 PM
What if MJ's children were just doubles and the real ones were out of that scenario? After all with the children being in the house the story would look more real because I don't believe for a second that MJ's children have passed through something so painful only for the sake of his father hoax unless Michael told them in advance and what was on that stretcher was a dummy.lee went into this book project as an atheist attempting to disprove Christianity and came out of it a christian . :icon_e_wink:
What do you mean suspicious?
Oh it's clear now thank you suspicious.
Post by: Jowayria on December 11, 2012, 03:31:05 PM
Off-topic but seeing as this is the 11.11.11 thread I thought I'd mention that it's 12.12.12 tomorrow! I just think it's a really cool date, nothing else intended!
Yeah , and it is cool for so many other reasons ,
check this out :
Quote
The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 12
Twelve is a perfect number, signifying perfection of government, or of governmental perfection. It is found as a multiple in all that has to do with rule. The sun which "rules" the day, and the moon and stars which "govern" the night, do so by their passage through the twelve signs of the Zodiac which completes the great circle of the heavens of 360 (12 x 30) degrees or divisions, and thus govern the year.
Twelve is the product of 3 (the perfectly Divine and heavenly number) and 4 (the earthly, the number of what is material and organic).
While seven is composed of 3 added to 4, the number twelve is 3 multiplied by 4, and hence denotes that which can scarcely be explained in words, but which the spiritual perception can at once appreciate, viz., organization, the products denoting production and multiplication and increase of all that is contained in the two numbers separately. The 4 is generally prominently seen in the twelve.
The Twelve Patriarchs
There were twelve patriarchs from (and including) Shem (the son of Noah) to Jacob:
Shem
Arphaxad
Salah
Heber
Peleg
Reu
Serug
Nahor
Terah
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
The Sons of Israel
The twelve sons of Israel, though actually thirteen in number, are never listed with 13 names in a single list.
There are about 18 enumerations altogether, but in each list one or the other sons / tribes is omitted. Generally it is Levi, but not always. In Revelation 7 both Dan and Ephraim are omitted , but the enumeration is still twelve, Levi and Joseph being introduced for this special sealing of the remnant which shall go unscathed through the great tribulation.
How is the number twelve represented in Solomon's Temple?
The temple of Solomon has twelve as the predominating factor, in contrast with the Tabernacle, which had the number five. This agrees with the grace which shines in the Tabernacle, and with the glory of the kingdom which is displayed in the Temple.
When we come to the New Testament we find the same great principle pervading the Apostolic government as we see in the Patriarchal and National, for we have the following groups of twelve:
The Apostles.
The foundations in the heavenly Jerusalem.
The gates.
The pearls.
The angels.
To me , these relationships are not a coincidence ! let's just wish for a shout instead of a whisper !
love
Post by: MJonmind on December 11, 2012, 05:06:19 PM
Ellyd
Quote
At memorial, all three kids were directed and seemed to wear earplugs. Blanket was looking up to the lamp bridges several times. At that moment they knew - an unforgettable scene for Paris on stage.At :20 seconds you see Blanket looking up at the ceiling, but during the wide angle shots of the stadium it shows the press box, and it’s so tiny far away. Could he see MJ from there or could it be a screen showing the telecast or something. I mean don’t we think MJ was Blond Lady? And I think Hat Man at Memorial was Elvis (sorry don’t want to rehash that now).
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/blanketloo.jpg)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3bxdZq24oM[/youtube]
So just re-watching a few places:
MJ called Stevie Wonder a musical prophet, and here he sings: "I never dreamed you’d leave in summer, I thought you would go and come back home… You said you would be the light in Autumn, Said you’d be the one to lead the way..." Hmm... well Bam is going to be winter not fall, but... :icon_e_wink:
And “Michael was a season ticket holder for the Lakers.”
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v-QI_r7Bzo[/youtube]
Brook Shield quoted The Little Prince, “ ‘Eyes are blind, you have to look with the heart. What’s most important is invisible.’ … Michael saw everything with his heart.”
In part 10, Bernice King (Martin Luther King), said, “And I want the world to know, that in spite of being embroiled in accusation and persecution, as a humanitarian he thought it not robbery to concern himself with one of this world’s other humanitarians, our mother during her illness, just 3 months before her death. In October 2005, I was with Mom when Michael called her all the way from the middle east. And although she couldn’t speak because of a debilitating stroke, she listened as he said to her, that he had been praying on his knees every day for her, that to him she was America’s true royalty, and he wanted her to know if music was being played in her room because of its healing effect. My only wish is that he could have seen the glow on her face. If faces could smile as we know they do, that day Michael Jackson made our mother’s face smile in spite of her condition. What an unforgettable moment.”
So many beautiful stories revealing the MJ the world hardly knew, but it makes me think how many other thousands of equally wonderful stories are yet to be told. I'm going to 'Keep watching'!
Sorry for going off topic. Well, I'm thinking that MJ left of the jet plane to anywhere including Neverland for possibly a few days. He probably has traveled all over the world since 09 with his top secret identity status, but I agree that he was at that Memorial. I don't think he'd want to miss it. Who knows perhaps he was in disguise at the small funeral for the DWD patient as well. He/it was after-all a huge gift to his hoax purposes/calling.
Post by: MJonmind on December 12, 2012, 06:05:54 AM
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,5167.msg432072.html#msg432072
Quote
I began to cry and told him I was in pain, I was tired, I was worried about fuc*king up his masterpiece, I felt lots of pressure, I missed my family and I thought I was falling apart.
I then loooked him in the eyes and said… “you seem so unbreakable and here I am crying over nothing”
He than wrapped his arms around me… (and boy, it felt good)
He told me that I was the one who was unbreakable and he can not even begin to imagine what it must be like to be away from my kids, as he can’t go a day without his… he told me that he had faith in me and that he did not question or doubt my ability to do this project with him.
And from then on, he always called me Unbreakable..
Hmm... so he can be far away from his kids after June 25, 09, no problem eh? No way jose... :icon_twisted: :icon_lol:
Post by: emulik on December 12, 2012, 06:23:24 AM
Bec, I was thinking of your statement of MJ can't be without his kids, when I read this. The whole story is posted in the Front thread. This is a conversation between a CG worker on MJ's Dome Project, and MJ:exactly MJonmind, I read that, too. he loves them more than a life, so I think/guess they meet on a daily basis, or if it is not possible, then very often :icon_razz:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,5167.msg432072.html#msg432072QuoteI began to cry and told him I was in pain, I was tired, I was worried about fuc*king up his masterpiece, I felt lots of pressure, I missed my family and I thought I was falling apart.
I then loooked him in the eyes and said… “you seem so unbreakable and here I am crying over nothing”
He than wrapped his arms around me… (and boy, it felt good)
He told me that I was the one who was unbreakable and he can not even begin to imagine what it must be like to be away from my kids, as he can’t go a day without his… he told me that he had faith in me and that he did not question or doubt my ability to do this project with him.
And from then on, he always called me Unbreakable..
Hmm... so he can be far away from his kids after June 25, 09, no problem eh? No way jose... :icon_twisted: :icon_lol:
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 12, 2012, 06:27:14 AM
Bec, I was thinking of your statement of MJ can't be without his kids, when I read this. The whole story is posted in the Front thread. This is a conversation between a CG worker on MJ's Dome Project, and MJ:
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,5167.msg432072.html#msg432072QuoteI began to cry and told him I was in pain, I was tired, I was worried about fuc*king up his masterpiece, I felt lots of pressure, I missed my family and I thought I was falling apart.
I then loooked him in the eyes and said… “you seem so unbreakable and here I am crying over nothing”
He than wrapped his arms around me… (and boy, it felt good)
He told me that I was the one who was unbreakable and he can not even begin to imagine what it must be like to be away from my kids, as he can’t go a day without his… he told me that he had faith in me and that he did not question or doubt my ability to do this project with him.
And from then on, he always called me Unbreakable..
Hmm... so he can be far away from his kids after June 25, 09, no problem eh? No way jose... :icon_twisted: :icon_lol:
That's true MJonmind, it's not necessary that Michael would be staying in some land other than U.S. He might be right there in his homeland while we all search for him elsewhere, he might be living with his kids...
But then what was the 7Bahrain And Michael (7BAM) redirect about? Why Bahrain, if Michael was living in U.S....?
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on December 12, 2012, 08:02:09 AM
At memorial, all three kids were directed and seemed to wear earplugs. Blanket was looking up to the lamp bridges several times. At that moment they knew - an unforgettable scene for Paris on stage.
As to June 25, there is no evidence we can be sure of, not in the house, not at UCLA.QuoteMichael Jackson's children cried as they watched Dr. Conrad Murray attempt to revive the king of pop's lifeless body in the bedroom of Jackson's rented mansion, the head of Jackson's security team testified today at Murray's manslaughter trial. [...] "Immediately, I was shocked just seeing him. Shortly after that, I realized that his children were standing outside of his room … the two older ones," Muhammad said.
"Paris was on the ground balled up crying and Prince ... was standing there … and he just had a real shocked, just slowly crying type of look on his face," he said.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-trial-kids-prince-paris-cried-conrad/story?id=14623265 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-trial-kids-prince-paris-cried-conrad/story?id=14623265)QuoteIt was a scene of unimaginable heartbreak. Amid the circus that surrounded Michael Jackson, three children sat in a cold anteroom off a neon-lit hospital corridor, waiting anxiously for news of their father.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195985/No-Daddy-No-screamed-Michael-Jacksons-children-manager-broke-news-death.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195985/No-Daddy-No-screamed-Michael-Jacksons-children-manager-broke-news-death.html)
As Michael Jackson’s manager Frank DiLeo walked down the white linoleum-tiled floor, he knew he had to impart the most devastating news of his life.
Walking into the family waiting room at the UCLA Medical Centre, DiLeo was greeted by the sight of Michael Jackson’s three children – Prince Michael, 12, Paris, 11, and seven-year-old Prince Michael II.
[...]
‘Michael’s mother Katherine was with them. They were waiting there together for news.
I call both "dramaturgical paintings adding artificial dynamics to a relatively simple, lonesome death / hospital scene", but I don't call both descriptions the truth. If the agency had the lead that day, for sure MJ had the lead as to his kids. Kids at UCLA means MJ was there.
However, we saw Lady Katherine arrive alone at UCLA. Who brought the kids along? The bodyguards were where the stretcher was. No photo I recall that showed the kids at UCLA.
I'd say they were with Daddy that day under agency protection while the bodyguards acted "as if" they accompanied MJ but he and the kids were not at UCLA. Unless my memory is playing jokes on me, lol.
Looking at acting, only in April 2011, Paris and Prince were officially (reported by the media) going to acting classes. However, putting them on stage began much earlier - not any different from any other parents who love to see others admire their kids.
Very cute and so well organized (and in this organizational level this little program exceeds by far what parents and nursery schools usually prepare with their kids)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmfmkSl0C4[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmfmkSl0C4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmfmkSl0C4)
There is a history of acting and getting used to the public eye for MJ's kids. All great artists start early. MJ's kids needed protection in addition. That's why the veils and masks were removed and the kids were made public figures on stage as of 2008.
Much we did not know and still don't know.
Quote
Much we did not know and still don't know.True!
Quote
No photo I recall that showed the kids at UCLA.
I can't recall one either.
There are reports that the children did ask to see their father's body at the UCLA after he was pronounced "dead". IF they went to UCLA to see their dad, it was just to see him before his hiding/flight, to be reassured he'd be allright, yet giving the media the impression to "see their dad's dead body".
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/06/29/michael.jackson/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Conrad_Murray_Trial/michael-jackson-children-kids-asked-singers-dead-body/story?id=14713306
Post by: marumjj on December 13, 2012, 04:18:06 AM
We’ve come this far, and we ARE going forward as a tight-knit group who love each other after 4 years. And we do! That’s all I have to say about that. He's counting on us.
HesQuoteJust because you read it in a magazine (in this case book) or see it on a movie screen don’t make it actual, factual. Michael told us that years ago and judging on books, mags, articles I’ve seen, reviewed, read of late, he nailed it.You know, with all the books on MJ that have come out, and especially T Mesereau speaking in support of Sullivan’s controversial book, I believe each of the books likely have some falsehoods and half-truths. How do you get out information to a general population with evil people reading everything too to silence it? You hide truths amongst the garbage they are used to, just so they’ll pick it up and read it. Like I said before, it's called infiltration and camoflage tactics.
Well said! People (outside of MJ fans) aren't going to read this if it's only good news but if you mix the truth with a little fiction it will help ensure the truth to be read. It's like giving a little sugar with the medicine to help it go down a little smoother. If only the truth was written won't people dismiss it all and say that it was a biased and untruthful account of MJ? This way they aren't able to say that he is being biased yet the worst offenses are being dealt with.
Hugs
perhaps mr. sullivan's book is a bit of a small miracle in all this, that he set out to do one thing and did another. ( thinking of lee stroble's a case for christ )
suspicious mind, what a coincidence that I mention the book just for downloading, you've read?
:bearhug:
Post by: suspicious mind on December 13, 2012, 06:35:00 AM
Post by: MJonmind on December 13, 2012, 04:25:32 PM
Quote
perhaps mr. sullivan's book is a bit of a small miracle in all this, that he set out to do one thing and did another.You know there’s something to be said for the enemy inadvertently helping the good side, called ‘putting their foot in their mouth’, or the public reaching ‘critical mass’ where they are so disgusted with the lies and maligning, that they actually won’t take it anymore. Sometimes hearing the opposite of the truth is also educational, telling us about enemy tactics. I've told people that MJ must be very dangerous to TPTB if they would spend 7 million plus and 2 decades worth of trying to destroy his image. It made me personally dig deeper to find the real MJ for 3+ years, and boy was I amply rewarded with his beauty of humanity! I believe the battle lines have been drawn, and when MJ comes back, it will be a full-scale battle between good and evil. It will show what we as friends of MJ are made of. :errrr: I love you Michael!
Post by: Andrea on December 14, 2012, 10:07:01 AM
Hey TS, looks like TMZ gave you/us a shout-out. Or they're just having/making fun of people like me who will bring attention to it. :ghsdf:
TOO SHORT
DROPS HANUKKAH JAM
Judah MaccaBIATCH!
12/14/2012 6:50 AM PST BY TMZ STAFF
He's been workin' on it for a solid year ... and now legendary rapper Too Short has finally released his long-awaited Hanukkah slow jam ... complete with latkes, dreidels and Judah MaccaBIATCH!
Short first told us he was working on the song last December, after he freestyled about the Festival of Lights on "TMZ Live."
Turns out TS was serious ... 'cause he grabbed an R&B singer, got in the studio, and spit out his very own Holiday classic.
Happy Hanukkah.
http://www.tmz.com/2012/12/14/too-short-hanukkah-rap-judah-maccabiatch-song/
:suspect:
Post by: SimPattyK on December 14, 2012, 10:41:28 AM
GREAT!
Hey TS, looks like TMZ gave you/us a shout-out. Or they're just having/making fun of people like me who will bring attention to it. :ghsdf:
TOO SHORT
DROPS HANUKKAH JAM
Judah MaccaBIATCH!
12/14/2012 6:50 AM PST BY TMZ STAFF
He's been workin' on it for a solid year ... and now legendary rapper Too Short has finally released his long-awaited Hanukkah slow jam ... complete with latkes, dreidels and Judah MaccaBIATCH!
Short first told us he was working on the song last December, after he freestyled about the Festival of Lights on "TMZ Live."
Turns out TS was serious ... 'cause he grabbed an R&B singer, got in the studio, and spit out his very own Holiday classic.
Happy Hanukkah.
http://www.tmz.com/2012/12/14/too-short-hanukkah-rap-judah-maccabiatch-song/
:suspect:
OK! So.... we have TS and ... JAM which sounds like BAM ? :suspect: :icon_lol:
AND . . . he just "happens' to wear an ORANGE t-shirt!?
OK! :icon_e_biggrin: :icon_albino:
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/hoaxpic/images/tsorange.jpg)
Post by: Andrea on December 14, 2012, 11:46:35 AM
LOL Sim, orange shirt - nice catch! I bolded the JAM because it's an MJ song, haha. And the D H for Death Hoax...probably reaching with that one. :icon_lol:
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on December 14, 2012, 02:15:31 PM
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on December 14, 2012, 06:32:10 PM
Halle Berry & Olivier Martinez
FRONT ROW
for Disney on ice
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2012/12/14/1214-nahla-halle-olivier-tmz-4.jpg)
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2012/12/14/1214-nahla-halle-olivier-tmz-4.jp) (http://ll-media.tmz.com/2012/12/14/1214-nahla-halle-olivier-tmz-4.jpg)
Halle Berry and Olivier Martinez took a break from custody fights (and physical ones) to visit the happiest place on Earth (adjacent) ... taking in a showing of Disney on Ice at the Staples Center last night.
The peaceful couple sat right up front, with Nahla seated on Halle's lap (see below).
The last time Halle had a seat that good ... her fiancé was beating her baby daddy senseless.
(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2012/12/14/1214-halle-berry-nahla-npg-3.jpg)
http://www.tmz.com/2012/12/14/halle-berry-nahla-olivier-martinez-disney-on-ice-photo/
Post by: emulik on December 15, 2012, 02:41:12 AM
Post by: MJonmind on December 15, 2012, 03:34:06 AM
So on that basis:
On the historical Judas Maccabeus who lived in the ‘silent’ period of 400 years between the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_MaccabeusTS in The Signs 1-6 talked much about Yom Kippur which he says represents the EOW.
Judah Maccabee (or Judas Maccabeus, also spelled Machabeus, or Maccabaeus, Hebrew: יהודה המכבי, Y'hudhah HamMakabi) was a Kohen and a son of theJewish priest Mattathias. He led the Maccabean revolt against the Seleucid Empire (167–160 BCE) and is acclaimed as one of the greatest warriors in Jewish historyalongside Joshua, Gideon and David.
The Jewish feast of Hanukkah ("Dedication") commemorates the restoration of Jewish worship at the temple in Jerusalem in 165 BCE, after Judah Maccabee removed the Hellenistic statuary.
Here are the lyrics to Too Short's song to the best of my hearing: (tell me if you have better words so I can correct it)
Quote
“Harvest, favorite time of the year, got past November now we’re in the clear, for the next 8 nights the festive lights, we’ll bring some hanu good cheer, it’s harvest—favorite time of year, I’m fryin’ Latkes, making’ a mess, with some Jewish girls, pinchin tuchus?, time to dust off my treadle, make some gelt?, I ate miles brisket, need to loosen my belt, mozza ball soup with plenty of chicken, all this shmaltz makes my blood thicken, I got 8 gifts coming, one for each night, it’s my favorite holiday, you better treat a player right, this ain’t Roger shana?, this ain’t Passover, it’s Hanukkah baby, now move that ass over, it’s even better than Yom Kippur, I got seven gifts and I want one more, you love Christmas, but it’s only one night, some people say it’s twelve but it’s only one night, you need to light that manorah, we do it like this, me, KB, Harvey and Judah MaccaBiatch, --harvest, favorite time of year, got past November now we’re in the clear, for the next 8 nights, the festive lights, we’ll bring some hanu good cheer, it’s harvest, favorite time of the year.Hanukkah is not a feast commanded by God but instituted by the people.
"Jew gotta hear this" is also very strange. There are African-americans that have converted to Judaism I'm sure, and Ethiopian 'Jews' living in Israel, but black hebrew Israelites is another whole story.
Post by: MJonmind on December 17, 2012, 03:04:07 PM
Harvey gets special mention!
http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_kxldqi7v/
Quote
Too Short’s AWESOME Hanukkah Song
He’s final dropping his “semi-kosher Hanukkah slow jam".
And there's this one too:
Quote
Hanukkah Rap Battle between Too Short and Jim Jones.http://www.tmz.com/2011/12/03/hanukkah-rap-jim-jones-too-short/
We got to thinkin' ... there are no real Hanukkah songs during the holidays, so a rapper who tried to crash the Jewish holiday with a good beat could score big.
HANUKKAH RAP BATTLE
It's Dreidel Time, Bitch!
Too Short (left) and Jim Jones (right) squared off Friday on TMZ Live, with their original tunes written just for us.
Listen to both, and you be the judge.
Harvey seemed to love them both! :icon_lol:
This links with Paris lighting the Menorah.
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18330.msg432540.html#msg432540
Post by: Adi on December 17, 2012, 05:25:17 PM
Post by: MJonmind on December 25, 2012, 12:18:44 AM
I have read all of the posts up to this point, and unfortunately I don't have enough time make a reply to every post.
So in the interest of finishing in the next couple of days: I would request bec, in the next day or so, to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include). You may use new reasons, and/or review previous reasons posted by yourself and/or others. Please number each point, so that I can reply to each point directly by number.
:argue:
After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM.
:affraid:
Post by: Thriller4ever on December 25, 2012, 01:00:48 AM
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on December 25, 2012, 09:51:48 PM
Hey TS, looks like TMZ gave you/us a shout-out. Or they're just having/making fun of people like me who will bring attention to it. :ghsdf:
TOO SHORT
DROPS HANUKKAH JAM
Judah MaccaBIATCH!
12/14/2012 6:50 AM PST BY TMZ STAFF
He's been workin' on it for a solid year ... and now legendary rapper Too Short has finally released his long-awaited Hanukkah slow jam ... complete with latkes, dreidels and Judah MaccaBIATCH!
Short first told us he was working on the song last December, after he freestyled about the Festival of Lights on "TMZ Live."
Turns out TS was serious ... 'cause he grabbed an R&B singer, got in the studio, and spit out his very own Holiday classic.
Happy Hanukkah.
http://www.tmz.com/2012/12/14/too-short-hanukkah-rap-judah-maccabiatch-song/
:suspect:
:icon_e_surprised:
I haven't been in this thread in forever and stopped by and am lazy so I go to the last page and this caught my eye for the first Time. lmao! I didn't know Too Short sang christmas carols? haha! Good one!
:fresse: :icon_albino: :icon_lol:
Post by: MJonmind on December 25, 2012, 10:19:21 PM
Quote
Turns out TS was seriousMaybe that's the main message.
Post by: Im_convincedmjalive on December 25, 2012, 10:38:56 PM
QuoteTurns out TS was seriousMaybe that's the main message.
100% agree. No arguing that point with me. I took my leave of absense early on cause this thread was a train wreck watching it happen in slow motion. For me personally that is. I'm not doubting that something came from all the rumbles. Yeah kinda a hard bitter pill to swallow I suppose. Thanks for being a trooper MJonline.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year if I'm not in the threads posting before that comes around. :bearhug:
Post by: curls on January 01, 2013, 01:50:34 AM
"For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777)."
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg383806.html#msg383806
Guess 10 minutes and we'll find out.
EDIT, 40 minutes later - I have my answer. He always said to go not by his words but by the evidence. Lesson learned. :icon_e_sad:
Post by: Snoopy71 on January 01, 2013, 02:31:42 AM
So was TS serious about this?:
"For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777)."
http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg383806.html#msg383806
Guess 10 minutes and we'll find out.
EDIT, 40 minutes later - I have my answer. He always said to go not by his words but by the evidence. Lesson learned. :icon_e_sad:
I thought that I would have time over the holidays for level 7 here; but that didn't happen, sorry.
Obviously, others can continue the investigation here; and I will be back here as soon as I can.
For sure, all three 7's will be done by the end of 2012: Level 7, Update 7, and Sign 7 (777).
:!: :!: :!:
:icon_question:
Post by: MJonmind on January 01, 2013, 02:40:16 AM
The silence is pretty deafening...and it seems it's deliberate on his part.
Does that mean he wants us to think of him, Paris and Latoya as "fake informers"?
Or is Bam something none of us have recognized?
I'm drawing a blank.
Curls
Quote
EDIT, 40 minutes later - I have my answer. He always said to go not by his words but by the evidence. Lesson learned. :icon_e_sad:This is a hard lesson. :icon_e_sad: :icon_e_confused:
Post by: Adi on January 01, 2013, 02:43:52 AM
I am drawing a blank too....
but I have the feeling we are being tested......to see how we react/comment
Post by: use_your_illusion on January 01, 2013, 02:51:05 AM
Post by: curls on January 01, 2013, 03:22:02 AM
but I have the feeling we are being tested......to see how we react/comment
And that would really be mean wouldn't it? Well, I'm not playing anymore - and if that means I've failed someone's creepy 'test' then so be it!
Post by: pippi713713 on January 01, 2013, 03:44:49 AM
but I have the feeling we are being tested......to see how we react/comment
I think that might also be the case. This situation we are in reminds me of an episode of Community that I watched a while ago. In the episode, a group of psychology students and their professor hold an experiment to prove that when people are placed in situations where they have no control, they will reach their breaking point. The volunteers for their experiment are placed into a waiting room where they are told that the experiment is delayed, not realizing that waiting in the room is the experiment...
Post by: Adore on January 01, 2013, 03:47:06 AM
Does that mean he wants us to think of him, Paris and Latoya as "fake informers"?
I think it's unfortunate that TS drew Paris and LaToya in this "fake informer" talk. We can assume, at least, that their twitter accounts are real and that they're obviously Michael's relatives - which cannot be said with certainty about TS. If their accounts are real, does that make them informers ? And because TS's prediction didn't come true, it means that Paris and LaToya are fake too ?! I don't know, but I fail to see the connection, or if there is one, is a forced one.
Post by: bugsy on January 01, 2013, 04:07:25 AM
I don't know who this T.S is, and I make no accusation to saying his a fake or real but I look at all views of any one situation and when looking at the possibility of being a fake, this is why a "fake" would say it etc..
Does that mean he wants us to think of him, Paris and Latoya as "fake informers"?
I think it's unfortunate that TS drew Paris and LaToya in this "fake informer" talk. We can assume, at least, that their twitter accounts are real and that they're obviously Michael's relatives - which cannot be said with certainty about TS. If their accounts are real, does that make them informers ? And because TS's prediction didn't come true, it means that Paris and LaToya are fake too ?! I don't know, but I fail to see the connection, or if there is one, is a forced one.
To use Latoya and Paris would add weight to his own statement regardless to it being true or false... there is and was a flaw to that statement and the inclusion of Latoya and Paris.. they haven't said Michael would BAM by 1/1/2013, he was the only one who gave that deadline but he included them in to make it much more convincing and "powerful" so to speak.
Post by: marumjj on January 01, 2013, 04:11:15 AM
Post by: Adore on January 01, 2013, 04:26:55 AM
To use Latoya and Paris would add weight to his own statement regardless to it being true or false... there is and was a flaw to that statement and the inclusion of Latoya and Paris.. they haven't said Michael would BAM by 1/1/2013, he was the only one who gave that deadline but he included them in to make it much more convincing and "powerful" so to speak.
I know, but it proved to be inappropriate, in the end, and kind of risky and desperate. I mean, say, if I had to choose between Paris, LaToya, and TS, I'd choose Paris and LaToya, because at least I know they're real and part of the family.
Post by: bugsy on January 01, 2013, 04:59:57 AM
Anyways as I said in the front thread, the 1st January isn't over yet, I could not see Michael doing a BAM at midnight because he would have to be up all night with the media circus outside and flying around.. not forgetting the kids and the media... I would think he would BAM later on...... when at least a majority of America is awake...to Bam and then say "Well folks... I'm alive as you can see and now i'm off home to sleep" would be a little strange JMO
Post by: Jowayria on January 01, 2013, 05:05:57 AM
To use Latoya and Paris would add weight to his own statement regardless to it being true or false... there is and was a flaw to that statement and the inclusion of Latoya and Paris.. they haven't said Michael would BAM by 1/1/2013, he was the only one who gave that deadline but he included them in to make it much more convincing and "powerful" so to speak.
I know, but it proved to be inappropriate, in the end, and kind of risky and desperate. I mean, say, if I had to choose between Paris, LaToya, and TS, I'd choose Paris and LaToya, because at least I know they're real and part of the family.
AKON posted on his official facebook page
Quote
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Love you all!!! Thank u for believing!!!
I , just like Adi , feel that our patience and faith are being tested .
TS/Front always warned us not to take their words as mere facts , but I guess we 're too wishful to do so . But we learned our lesson ..the hard way .
One thing I know and I am sure of , big boys keep their promises .
Post by: MJonmind on January 01, 2013, 05:28:46 AM
If we are only at part way in this experiment, in what condition will we be in at the end--stark raving mad??but I have the feeling we are being tested......to see how we react/comment
I think that might also be the case. This situation we are in reminds me of an episode of Community that I watched a while ago. In the episode, a group of psychology students and their professor hold an experiment to prove that when people are placed in situations where they have no control, they will reach their breaking point. The volunteers for their experiment are placed into a waiting room where they are told that the experiment is delayed, not realizing that waiting in the room is the experiment...
If this is an ARG, why would they or he (MJ) want so few to participate or finish?
If Sony wants to see how to manipulate minds to help TPTB bring in the NWO, and usher in their savior and slave rules for living, then I guess we've helped enslave mankind. How depressing. :icon_pale:
UYI
Quote
Oh I get it, the BAM is not supposed to be physical. The fact that MJ didn't BAM in "time" is the BAM (Bad Ass Michael)..he really knows how to getcha doesn't he...lol, gotta love it.If that's all it is, I'd be happy, and laugh along... :icon_lol: :icon_e_confused: :icon_lol: :icon_e_confused:
Post by: katy (MJFAN7) on January 01, 2013, 05:55:54 AM
Post by: ellyd on January 01, 2013, 06:54:39 AM
Faith.
Time to stand up, stretch out, get strong shoulders and rely on oneself only.
Be a light.
Love independently from what ANY people say.
Have a blessed New Year everybody.
Post by: everlastinglove_MJ on January 01, 2013, 07:26:34 AM
If the best is yet to come, it may not involve only cream cake but some active work from our side.
Faith.
Time to stand up, stretch out, get strong shoulders and rely on oneself only.
Be a light.
Love independently from what ANY people say.
Have a blessed New Year everybody.
Quote
Love independently from what ANY people say.
Agree.
:bearhug:
Post by: VeryLittleSusie on January 01, 2013, 07:45:54 AM
1-01-2013 is our BAMsday in a sense that we finally realise that we've been punked....
Anyway - I'm still here.... :icon_e_confused:
Post by: Thriller4ever on January 01, 2013, 08:21:01 AM
Post by: Loveunited on January 01, 2013, 08:30:48 AM
If the best is yet to come, it may not involve only cream cake but some active work from our side.
Faith.
Time to stand up, stretch out, get strong shoulders and rely on oneself only.
Be a light.
Love independently from what ANY people say.
Have a blessed New Year everybody.QuoteLove independently from what ANY people say.
Agree.
:bearhug:
+1
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on January 01, 2013, 09:32:36 AM
Maybe the idea of hoax was to make us believe MJ is alive when in fact he was not...
1-01-2013 is our BAMsday in a sense that we finally realise that we've been punked....
Anyway - I'm still here.... :icon_e_confused:
I could understand why one might go down this road of thinking. However:
Pretend you are Mamma K for a moment and that he was dead. Would you allow your dead son to be used in a hoax and stay quiet about it? Would you want that air around your sons death? We have seen some crazy, comical, hilarious, laughable stuff in this hoax. Would you be ok with that if you were Manna K?
I am a mum. I wouldn't...
We know the true answer. He is alive and just hasn't bam'd yet. And the fact he hasnt yet doesnt change anything.
btw, I am so glad you are still here ;)
Lets continue to group together and keep working on this. It's not over. Love your comment ellyd - Perhaps there is still work to do...
The only thing that will make this thing come full circle is TIME....
Even if anyone feels more comfortable eliminating TS or Front from the equation (I am not doing that yet, becuase I believe a) time will reveal more and b) give Front and TS a right of reply re: 31.12.12) However, eliminate those two, if we just look at MJ from TII - two comments, "4 yrs" and "in my own time bam" that alone gives you something to believe he will still return.
:bearhug:
Love you all, to those who are struggling, please keep the faith. It's not time yet and you've come so far.
Peace, love, health, happiness and well wishes to you all for 2013 xx
Post by: bec on January 01, 2013, 09:55:03 AM
But which parts of his INFORMation were fake?
The DWD patient most certainly for starters :icon_bounce:
The rest if my list up for consideration;
-The EOW
-The FBI Sting operation
-The Illuminati being after MJ
I'm sure there's many other points but I'll let others have a go.
Happy New Year! Let's hope the rest of 2013 is as full of truth as the first day has been so far.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on January 01, 2013, 10:00:57 AM
And we are now allowed to know that TS_comments is/was a fake informer.
But which parts of his INFORMation were fake?
The DWD patient most certainly for starters :icon_bounce:
I like that angle / take that PARTS of the INFORMation were fake, not the INFORMer himself...
Plus DWD never sat well with me. *scoff scoff, smirk smirk*
Note: Edited my previous, post. Makes more sense now.
Post by: Andrea on January 01, 2013, 10:32:55 AM
Well friends, I can't say that I'm not utterly disappointed that nothing happened because I am. It does make me wonder why so much focus was put on the end of 2012, maybe we were being punked. My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely." And that's true. I wonder if it was TS who was punked..? Maybe he was assured the BAM would happen before 2013 and was told to go with that. He did say he didn't know everything about the hoax. But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on January 01, 2013, 10:42:32 AM
My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely."
My husband and I had an identical conversation.
Meanwhile, I am starting to think that a) we may have misunderstood / incorrectly interpreted something, or b) like your self, it's not time, TS got it wrong or c) something had to be altered which pushes the date fwd...
I am keenly watching what happens with CM.... I reckon this will be the next thing that moves fwd for us prior to bam. JMO. Could be wrong.
Post by: Thriller4ever on January 01, 2013, 11:32:58 AM
Well friends, I can't say that I'm not utterly disappointed that nothing happened because I am. It does make me wonder why so much focus was put on the end of 2012, maybe we were being punked. My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely." And that's true. I wonder if it was TS who was punked..? Maybe he was assured the BAM would happen before 2013 and was told to go with that. He did say he didn't know everything about the hoax. But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.
I understand Andrea, I'm disappointed too, not for the fact that MJ didn't Bam, but for the fact that a date was given.
This is what I had said in one of my posts in 'back and front' thread: if these dates were given for mere 'testing', this better stop. It's like the whole purpose of the hoax has been shifted from "creating a better world' or 'making MJ's image better' to what!... testing our faith? is this even necessary...the believers have dissected the why's and how's of hoax in these 3.5 years...isn't this enough? if i'm offending anyone here.... I'm sorry...but this is getting more stupid.
I think we must really know who is really behind this hoax...Michael or his enemies?
Post by: iamamjbeliever on January 01, 2013, 11:38:53 AM
Agreed
Well friends, I can't say that I'm not utterly disappointed that nothing happened because I am. It does make me wonder why so much focus was put on the end of 2012, maybe we were being punked. My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely." And that's true. I wonder if it was TS who was punked..? Maybe he was assured the BAM would happen before 2013 and was told to go with that. He did say he didn't know everything about the hoax. But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.
, not for the fact that MJ didn't Bam, but for the fact that a date was given.
Post by: mattie on January 01, 2013, 11:45:46 AM
Well friends, I can't say that I'm not utterly disappointed that nothing happened because I am. It does make me wonder why so much focus was put on the end of 2012, maybe we were being punked. My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely." And that's true. I wonder if it was TS who was punked..? Maybe he was assured the BAM would happen before 2013 and was told to go with that. He did say he didn't know everything about the hoax. But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.
I understand Andrea, I'm disappointed too, not for the fact that MJ didn't Bam, but for the fact that a date was given.
This is what I had said in one of my posts in 'back and front' thread: if these dates were given for mere 'testing', this better stop. It's like the whole purpose of the hoax has been shifted from "creating a better world' or 'making MJ's image better' to what!... testing our faith? is this even necessary...the believers have dissected the why's and how's of hoax in these 3.5 years...isn't this enough? if i'm offending anyone here.... I'm sorry...but this is getting more stupid.
I think we must really know who is really behind this hoax...Michael or his enemies?
thats exactly how i feel right now also.
Post by: Andrea on January 01, 2013, 11:46:14 AM
Well friends, I can't say that I'm not utterly disappointed that nothing happened because I am. It does make me wonder why so much focus was put on the end of 2012, maybe we were being punked. My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely." And that's true. I wonder if it was TS who was punked..? Maybe he was assured the BAM would happen before 2013 and was told to go with that. He did say he didn't know everything about the hoax. But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.
I understand Andrea, I'm disappointed too, not for the fact that MJ didn't Bam, but for the fact that a date was given.
This is what I had said in one of my posts in 'back and front' thread: if these dates were given for mere 'testing', this better stop. It's like the whole purpose of the hoax has been shifted from "creating a better world' or 'making MJ's image better' to what!... testing our faith? is this even necessary...the believers have dissected the why's and how's of hoax in these 3.5 years...isn't this enough? if i'm offending anyone here.... I'm sorry...but this is getting more stupid.
I think we must really know who is really behind this hoax...Michael or his enemies?
I've come to my own realizations in the past hour or so and I think things are proceeding as they should. Maybe it's my way of coping, LOL. Is it unfair that we are being tested right now? Maybe. But we can't let disappointment suffocate us from what we already know about this hoax. It's easy to lose sight of that when we're expecting something or relying on somebody's word. I believe Michael is behind this hoax and he creates doubts for us, to motivate and inspire us to keep going forward. The hoax would become stagnant otherwise.
Post by: bec on January 01, 2013, 11:54:17 AM
Well friends, I can't say that I'm not utterly disappointed that nothing happened because I am. It does make me wonder why so much focus was put on the end of 2012, maybe we were being punked. My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely." And that's true. I wonder if it was TS who was punked..? Maybe he was assured the BAM would happen before 2013 and was told to go with that. He did say he didn't know everything about the hoax. But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.
I understand Andrea, I'm disappointed too, not for the fact that MJ didn't Bam, but for the fact that a date was given.
This is what I had said in one of my posts in 'back and front' thread: if these dates were given for mere 'testing', this better stop. It's like the whole purpose of the hoax has been shifted from "creating a better world' or 'making MJ's image better' to what!... testing our faith? is this even necessary...the believers have dissected the why's and how's of hoax in these 3.5 years...isn't this enough? if i'm offending anyone here.... I'm sorry...but this is getting more stupid.
I think we must really know who is really behind this hoax...Michael or his enemies?
I was none too happy with TS a couple weeks ago myself so I can wholly appreciate your anger.
I don't see it as a test, I see it as part of the game we are playing. But then you know my theory re: the hoax n entertainment. Maybe it's easier from that vantage point. At least it fits in better/less offensively.
If this hoax were about sting operations on bad guys out to get MJ, then testing us and our ability to discern the truth from the lies would not be necessary, nor do I believe it would be part of the proceedings here. I don't see how playing games with false information fits in with these theories but if someone else does and they'd like to explain I'd like to listen.
I play this game willingly because even on the most frustrating day, it's still vastly entertaining and overall, I believe it's been good for me.
Post by: bugsy on January 01, 2013, 12:03:00 PM
What if this date was posted as a false date to lure out the bad guys or to have them start something going be
cause by now if there was bad guys out there after him, this site isn't secret and you can read it as a guest..... if it was a sting operation I mean?
it's just a thought....
Post by: Thriller4ever on January 01, 2013, 12:09:29 PM
Well friends, I can't say that I'm not utterly disappointed that nothing happened because I am. It does make me wonder why so much focus was put on the end of 2012, maybe we were being punked. My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely." And that's true. I wonder if it was TS who was punked..? Maybe he was assured the BAM would happen before 2013 and was told to go with that. He did say he didn't know everything about the hoax. But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.
I understand Andrea, I'm disappointed too, not for the fact that MJ didn't Bam, but for the fact that a date was given.
This is what I had said in one of my posts in 'back and front' thread: if these dates were given for mere 'testing', this better stop. It's like the whole purpose of the hoax has been shifted from "creating a better world' or 'making MJ's image better' to what!... testing our faith? is this even necessary...the believers have dissected the why's and how's of hoax in these 3.5 years...isn't this enough? if i'm offending anyone here.... I'm sorry...but this is getting more stupid.
I think we must really know who is really behind this hoax...Michael or his enemies?
I've come to my own realizations in the past hour or so and I think things are proceeding as they should. Maybe it's my way of coping, LOL. Is it unfair that we are being tested right now? Maybe. But we can't let disappointment suffocate us from what we already know about this hoax. It's easy to lose sight of that when we're expecting something or relying on somebody's word. I believe Michael is behind this hoax and he creates doubts for us, to motivate and inspire us to keep going forward. The hoax would become stagnant otherwise.
Andrea, at this point i feel the need to know that this hoax does have Michael behind it. I know it's awfully silly to ask for any guarantee at this point, but i can't seem to help it. If it's known to me that it's Michael, I'm ready...but the point is, MJ's Facebook, TS, Front, and any given verified twitter cannot give such guarantee. This hoax has sure widened my knowledge about various things that I didn't even imagine would come to know, but i think everything has it's own limit. How long are we gonna convince ourselves that this hoax is just Michael testing us...and we need to be patient.
I know that I'm gonna feel exactly as you have after some time too...i know I'd say the same thing... " "Bad Ass Michael"...he's testing us that's it ", but this hoax is not limited to the believers, is it? This hoax is beyond this forum and any YouTube video here in the internet...this hoax is belong the internet, in short. And in my opinion I don't think we are the ones to let the hoax keep going, it's Michael.
He is the one who needs to come back, and do the needful, whatever we do, will not bring the required result...it's him!
And also, by now, we know so much that people think we are insane...there's nothing that we can do right now. It's time that people are given the chance to know what we know. And this does not include giving false dates...I mean 2good2betrue left...was this necessary? how hurt and disappointed she would've been that she reached such a conclusion...this is not good in my opinion.
Our curiosity, anxiety, our love for Michael, and our desire for his vindication, and the hope that it will happen one day is the force that keeps this hoax running...it's nothing else than that. So, i can't see any end to this right now...
Post by: Thriller4ever on January 01, 2013, 12:25:10 PM
Post by: Andrea on January 01, 2013, 12:29:38 PM
Well friends, I can't say that I'm not utterly disappointed that nothing happened because I am. It does make me wonder why so much focus was put on the end of 2012, maybe we were being punked. My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely." And that's true. I wonder if it was TS who was punked..? Maybe he was assured the BAM would happen before 2013 and was told to go with that. He did say he didn't know everything about the hoax. But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.
I understand Andrea, I'm disappointed too, not for the fact that MJ didn't Bam, but for the fact that a date was given.
This is what I had said in one of my posts in 'back and front' thread: if these dates were given for mere 'testing', this better stop. It's like the whole purpose of the hoax has been shifted from "creating a better world' or 'making MJ's image better' to what!... testing our faith? is this even necessary...the believers have dissected the why's and how's of hoax in these 3.5 years...isn't this enough? if i'm offending anyone here.... I'm sorry...but this is getting more stupid.
I think we must really know who is really behind this hoax...Michael or his enemies?
I've come to my own realizations in the past hour or so and I think things are proceeding as they should. Maybe it's my way of coping, LOL. Is it unfair that we are being tested right now? Maybe. But we can't let disappointment suffocate us from what we already know about this hoax. It's easy to lose sight of that when we're expecting something or relying on somebody's word. I believe Michael is behind this hoax and he creates doubts for us, to motivate and inspire us to keep going forward. The hoax would become stagnant otherwise.
Andrea, at this point i feel the need to know that this hoax does have Michael behind it. I know it's awfully silly to ask for any guarantee at this point, but i can't seem to help it. If it's known to me that it's Michael, I'm ready...but the point is, MJ's Facebook, TS, Front, and any given verified twitter cannot give such guarantee. This hoax has sure widened my knowledge about various things that I didn't even imagine would come to know, but i think everything has it's own limit. How long are we gonna convince ourselves that this hoax is just Michael testing us...and we need to be patient.
I know that I'm gonna feel exactly as you have after some time too...i know I'd say the same thing... " "Bad Ass Michael"...he's testing us that's it ", but this hoax is not limited to the believers, is it? This hoax is beyond this forum and any YouTube video here in the internet...this hoax is belong the internet, in short. And in my opinion I don't think we are the ones to let the hoax keep going, it's Michael.
He is the one who needs to come back, and do the needful, whatever we do, will not bring the required result...it's him!
And also, by now, we know so much that people think we are insane...there's nothing that we can do right now. It's time that people are given the chance to know what we know. And this does not include giving false dates...I mean 2good2betrue left...was this necessary? how hurt and disappointed she would've been that she reached such a conclusion...this is not good in my opinion.
Our curiosity, anxiety, our love for Michael, and our desire for his vindication, and the hope that it will happen one day is the force that keeps this hoax running...it's nothing else than that. So, i can't see any end to this right now...
I wish I could give you those guarantees but I really don't know anymore than you do. We have been given what we need to keep going in the past 3 1/2 years. We all have our personal limits but as of right now, the hoax is limitless. Perhaps bec is right and we are NOT being tested, that this is part of the game that we have chosen to play - which doesn't reduce the hoax to being only a game. As for what other people think, let them think what they want - you can't control that. The rest is faith and patience.
And yes, keep watchin'!
Post by: ellyd on January 01, 2013, 12:40:32 PM
I just wrote in the other thread - maybe our calendar basics / understanding of the calendar used in this project are wrong.
Post by: Thriller4ever on January 01, 2013, 12:46:35 PM
Well friends, I can't say that I'm not utterly disappointed that nothing happened because I am. It does make me wonder why so much focus was put on the end of 2012, maybe we were being punked. My Dad called me this morning and said "So no Michael Jackson then" and I said "no, not yet" and he replied "so you still have faith?" me: "Oh yes, definitely." And that's true. I wonder if it was TS who was punked..? Maybe he was assured the BAM would happen before 2013 and was told to go with that. He did say he didn't know everything about the hoax. But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.
I understand Andrea, I'm disappointed too, not for the fact that MJ didn't Bam, but for the fact that a date was given.
This is what I had said in one of my posts in 'back and front' thread: if these dates were given for mere 'testing', this better stop. It's like the whole purpose of the hoax has been shifted from "creating a better world' or 'making MJ's image better' to what!... testing our faith? is this even necessary...the believers have dissected the why's and how's of hoax in these 3.5 years...isn't this enough? if i'm offending anyone here.... I'm sorry...but this is getting more stupid.
I think we must really know who is really behind this hoax...Michael or his enemies?
I've come to my own realizations in the past hour or so and I think things are proceeding as they should. Maybe it's my way of coping, LOL. Is it unfair that we are being tested right now? Maybe. But we can't let disappointment suffocate us from what we already know about this hoax. It's easy to lose sight of that when we're expecting something or relying on somebody's word. I believe Michael is behind this hoax and he creates doubts for us, to motivate and inspire us to keep going forward. The hoax would become stagnant otherwise.
Andrea, at this point i feel the need to know that this hoax does have Michael behind it. I know it's awfully silly to ask for any guarantee at this point, but i can't seem to help it. If it's known to me that it's Michael, I'm ready...but the point is, MJ's Facebook, TS, Front, and any given verified twitter cannot give such guarantee. This hoax has sure widened my knowledge about various things that I didn't even imagine would come to know, but i think everything has it's own limit. How long are we gonna convince ourselves that this hoax is just Michael testing us...and we need to be patient.
I know that I'm gonna feel exactly as you have after some time too...i know I'd say the same thing... " "Bad Ass Michael"...he's testing us that's it ", but this hoax is not limited to the believers, is it? This hoax is beyond this forum and any YouTube video here in the internet...this hoax is belong the internet, in short. And in my opinion I don't think we are the ones to let the hoax keep going, it's Michael.
He is the one who needs to come back, and do the needful, whatever we do, will not bring the required result...it's him!
And also, by now, we know so much that people think we are insane...there's nothing that we can do right now. It's time that people are given the chance to know what we know. And this does not include giving false dates...I mean 2good2betrue left...was this necessary? how hurt and disappointed she would've been that she reached such a conclusion...this is not good in my opinion.
Our curiosity, anxiety, our love for Michael, and our desire for his vindication, and the hope that it will happen one day is the force that keeps this hoax running...it's nothing else than that. So, i can't see any end to this right now...
I wish I could give you those guarantees but I really don't know anymore than you do. We have been given what we need to keep going in the past 3 1/2 years. We all have our personal limits but as of right now, the hoax is limitless. Perhaps bec is right and we are NOT being tested, that this is part of the game that we have chosen to play - which doesn't reduce the hoax to being only a game. As for what other people think, let them think what they want - you can't control that. The rest is faith and patience.
And yes, keep watchin'!
:icon_e_geek: :icon_e_geek: :icon_e_geek:
well, i hope there'll be justice...in whatever way it comes ....
Post by: Search4Truth on January 01, 2013, 02:40:40 PM
Post by: sweetsunsetwithMJ on January 01, 2013, 04:37:49 PM
And we are now allowed to know that TS_comments is/was a fake informer.
But which parts of his INFORMation were fake?
The DWD patient most certainly for starters :icon_bounce:
The rest if my list up for consideration;
-The EOW
-The FBI Sting operation
-The Illuminati being after MJ
I'm sure there's many other points but I'll let others have a go.
Happy New Year! Let's hope the rest of 2013 is as full of truth as the first day has been so far.
I only know that I know nothing <-----> is there anyone that knows more than me? Guess I'll die in the attempt (mind games <---> mind control or whatever it is is killing me, for the moment is not being a happy new year I expect to see things more clearly by tomorrow :icon_e_sad:
Post by: marumjj on January 01, 2013, 04:47:30 PM
I'm not angry with TS now, but that's something that can change with the passage of days, depends on TS, if you return or not, to take charge of his sayings.
We object of deception, that I knew from day one, that being a believer makes us easy prey for any manipulator, we are not fools, but if people who put their faith and their time on this.
Looking back nothing has changed, what is not, is in the hands of who we are, the good guys or the bad guys?
I do not know, someone broke a promise. Even when my faith? not know, but now I can not be unfaithful to my heart, thank you for your thoughts, receive all my love :bearhug:
Post by: Australian MJ BeLIEver on January 01, 2013, 06:24:24 PM
Just remember, for those who feel that they were duped by TS, remember that millions of people have also been duped (25.06.09) with the whole hoax. We are not immune.
I equalize / reconcile TS claim of bam before 31.12.12 with "Its all part ofthe game"
We were thrown a lot of bull by family throughout this ordeal, TS and that part of his interaction with us (the dates) is no different - But it does'nt make him fake. Just like it doesnt make Paris fake when she throws out bull to us and non believers.
@ bec, I think you are right about the entertainment angle. And I am not agreeing, just because it is more easier and more paletable. I have been an entertainment believer for a while now. I must say, I am not struggling with the lack of bam one bit...
Being upset and feeing lied to by TS (JMO - for me only) is akin to reading a fantasy book, watching a fictional movie or playing a make believe adventure game on play station and become engrossed and so emotionally involved the the point that you become indignant and shattered when the reality of it being "just a game" becomes apparent. It is the book / movies / game's fault? No we opened the book, inserted the dvd, started the playstation game. We knew what we signed up for. It was our perception that changed becasue we read, watched, played so long and it was so lifelike that we lost touch with reality... Does that mean its the entertainments fault? Or does it simply mean that the entertainment was epic, because we got so engrossed that we started to believe it was real??
It's all a game. I am honestly ok with MJ no show and the lapsed bam dates... meh. Imma keep watchin'
Just don't give up people, there is more the the story. Its not up to us to write the ending of this hoax. Just wait and see what happens.
My bet is CM is the next thing to watch. Also lets be open and see what TS comes back with...
All the best people....
EDITED POST - MAKES MORE SENSE - Hate posting on iphone!
Post by: Adi on January 01, 2013, 07:02:33 PM
Quote
Last but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!
I am thinking that the redirect on 12/27/12 about all those tweets regarding the Dr M appeal brief deadline and extended/extensions, extended time, extra dose of time etc etc was TS trying to tell us that there really had been an extension of the deadline of the BAM before it happened.........kind of trying to give us a heads up in a subtle way?
Am I making sense? maybe I am just being delusional or have my head buried in the sand and can't face reality :icon_lol:
IDK....will be in watching and waiting mode...those tweets and the timing indicated still have me curious.
Post by: mjselfsweet on January 01, 2013, 07:51:38 PM
Post by: MJonmind on January 01, 2013, 09:57:28 PM
Quote
Maybe the idea of hoax was to make us believe MJ is alive when in fact he was not...Interesting way of looking at Bam. MJ's just being fair with both groups--beLIEvers and deaders. They each have their turn to feel the agony of being punked!! :'( :icon_eek: :icon_evil: :icon_e_biggrin:
1-01-2013 is our BAMsday in a sense that we finally realise that we've been punked....
:michael_jackson-1135:
Bec
Quote
And we are now allowed to know that TS_comments is/was a fake informer.Wow! Talk about taking the bull by the horns! 2013 is going to be a GREAT and interesting year here!!!
But which parts of his INFORMation were fake?
The DWD patient most certainly for starters
The rest if my list up for consideration;
-The EOW
-The FBI Sting operation
-The Illuminati being after MJ
I'm sure there's many other points but I'll let others have a go.
Happy New Year! Let's hope the rest of 2013 is as full of truth as the first day has been so far.
(http://test.specialtycomfort.com/newsletters/images/bull_rider.jpg)
Andrea
Quote
But you guys are right, it does bring into question everything TS has told us. And I agree that it could also be a test of faith or something. I feel a bit deflated but it's my own doing. I have no idea what to expect now, maybe that's how it's supposed to be.Once again, we are on the edge of our seats, hanging on for dear life…!
Iamamjbeliever and Mattie, we each can jump off the hoax train any time we wish. But when it appears to be 50/50 whether TS/Front comes from a good or evil source, then don’t we owe it to ourselves to wait it out? The odds are very good TS/Front are MJ (I still believe they are him, because of all the mountains of evidence.) Nothing’s changed for me.
Bec
Quote
I don't see how playing games with false information fits in with these theories but if someone else does and they'd like to explain I'd like to listen.Isn’t this exactly like the reality we live in, the recorded history of the world? The beliefs held dear to many? Some is true and much is not. How do we discern what’s truth and what’s deception? Again, I think MJ is mentoring us. Many people close to him, said he mentored them.
Thriller4ever, I’m glad you’re with us! Sometimes talking out our doubts, helps.
Andrea
Quote
I wish I could give you those guarantees but I really don't know anymore than you do. We have been given what we need to keep going in the past 3 1/2 years. We all have our personal limits but as of right now, the hoax is limitless.Reminds me of Front telling us about the Israelites wandering in the wilderness, and God only gave them what they needed, but he always provided and was faithful., even though they grumbled and doubted.
Sweetsunset, at least we’re here, together as a family! We're experiencing this adventure together, and can safely talk all we want about how we feel.
Aussie, Front also posted MJ’s quote: “Just because it’s in print, doesn't mean it’s the Gospel.”
Post by: paula-c on January 02, 2013, 10:01:03 AM
Quote
Trusting everyone is foolish; but don't trust anyone is neurotic clumsiness.
the previous sentence I read somewhere
Post by: MsTrinity333 on January 02, 2013, 03:04:24 PM
As we know TS did say that there is a deadline beyond which the BAM won't be extended.....QuoteLast but not least: I will say for certain that MJ will BAM before the end of 2012!!! Previously, I have given probabilities, possibilities, hints, and clues of a BAM from MJ. However, this is the very first time that I have given a BAM timing with certainty—not that I am giving an exact day or even year (could be this year or next), but I am saying that there is a deadline beyond which his BAM will not be extended. I say this with so much certainty that if MJ does not BAM by January 1, 2013: then you may know that TS is a fake informer!
I am thinking that the redirect on 12/27/12 about all those tweets regarding the Dr M appeal brief deadline and extended/extensions, extended time, extra dose of time etc etc was TS trying to tell us that there really had been an extension of the deadline of the BAM before it happened.........kind of trying to give us a heads up in a subtle way?
Am I making sense? maybe I am just being delusional or have my head buried in the sand and can't face reality :icon_lol:
IDK....will be in watching and waiting mode...those tweets and the timing indicated still have me curious.
I just finished catching up on this thread & I agree Adi. ;D
Sim & MJonmind GREAT POSTS & MONTAGES. TS spoke in detail about the PTB/NWO/ILLUMINATI.
:th_bravo:
Hang in there gag...let's see what the delay is all about. :bearhug: