Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators

Latest News => Michael Jackson News => Topic started by: bec on January 08, 2011, 01:25:47 AM

Title: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 01:25:47 AM
So I was reading where the EMT testified that MJ looked like a hospice patient which is so obviously BS considering the famous ambulance pic that I decided to post that as proof that the statement is complete hogwash but I no longer have the old ambulance pic from 2009 saved on my PC. So off to Google images I went.

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&biw= ... =&gs_rfai= (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&biw=1349&bih=696&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=michael+jackson+AMBULANCE+PIC&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)

Take a look. There's a new version of the ambulance pic suddenly and silently making it's appearance on the net... and seems to be taking the place of the old one in search results.

I had to go to message boards and forums to find the old pic...

For comparison, here's the old pic, posted on this message board http://www.lipstickalley.com/f227/micha ... ke-220197/ (http://www.lipstickalley.com/f227/michael-jacksons-ambulance-photo-fake-220197/)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulanceold.jpg)

And the full new version available that I haven't noticed before today, found here: http://theuniversalseduction.com/articl ... ray-nailed (http://theuniversalseduction.com/articles/jacko-doc-conrad-murray-nailed)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancefull.jpg)

but as you see, there are many smaller, cropped versions floating around the net at other sites..

For comparison, the old cropped version:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulanceoldcrop.jpg)

and 3 random versions of new crops on the net now:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancecrop3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancecrop2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancecrop.jpg)

I noticed that not only is the new version cropped OUT, more generous, (even the smaller versions) shows us more of what's going on in the scene, especially to the left and bottom, but also that the pic is more clearly in focus/better quality then the original.

You can clearly see MJ is on a red back board. The IV clip forms a 7 and the surgical tape forms a 9. It's interesting in retrospect that neither EMT appear to be actually doing anything except sitting there, dare I say "posing". The bag isn't depressed at all and the guy doing "cpr" isn't even doing cpr at all. He has one hand on MJs chest and appears to be either missing the entire left side of his body or is craning to look in the direction of the back window.

So the answer is why? Why is the pic zoomed out now and why is it clearer? I guess I already know the answer to both of those questions, I just find it hair-stand-up-on your-neck creepy to discover it, and wanted to share.

BUT. This discovery reminds me of something. Who was it that told us recently to ZOOM OUT? Look at the bigger picture. Was it Conrad Murray Twitter? Or TS? Someone... who was it?  It was about the time of the Michael Album cover art release and the Oprah episodes. Anyone remember who suggested we Zoom Out?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: GramsGirl63 on January 08, 2011, 01:35:10 AM
Hi Bec,
Thought Michael was already dead by the time the paramedics got to the scene? He certainly doesn't look dead in this picture does he? Also, didn't Murray instruct these guys to cover Michael's face with a towel so that he couldn't be photographed??

Thank you for posting the new pic..You can tell it is a lot clearer then the old one..Very interesting.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: _Anna_ on January 08, 2011, 01:37:43 AM
Murray said it on twitter. That twitt dissappeared. He said it on 8th November when the Oprah show aired.

He said "Step back and look at the bigger picture". But I say he was referring really metaphorically. Not to look at a picture literarily. But at the "picture"- which is the situation.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 01:48:06 AM
Ifound something weird. Does this look strange to anyone else? This is part of the pic we have never seen before. Does it look to anyone else like this MJ has no right arm?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancecrop2weird.jpg)
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 01:49:25 AM
Quote from: "_Anna_"
Murray said it on twitter. That twitt dissappeared. He said it on 8th November when the Oprah show aired.

He said "Step back and look at the bigger picture". But I say he was referring really metaphorically. Not to look at a picture literarily. But at the "picture"- which is the situation.

Ok, that's good info, I knew something he tweeted around that time had been deleted since.

But someone said zoom out. Specifically, "zoom out".
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 01:52:40 AM
Quote from: "GramsGirl63"
Hi Bec,
Thought Michael was already dead by the time the paramedics got to the scene? He certainly doesn't look dead in this picture does he? Also, didn't Murray instruct these guys to cover Michael's face with a towel so that he couldn't be photographed??

Thank you for posting the new pic..You can tell it is a lot clearer then the old one..Very interesting.

They would remove any towels from his face once the ambulance doors were closed so they could work on him so that explains why his face is uncovered. And luckily too, or else we'd never have any "proof" that MJ was "dead" lol.

No he doesn't look dead at all does he. Nor does he look 50 for that matter. He looks fantastic, young, and darker complected then TII MJ.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: RunFaYaLife on January 08, 2011, 01:58:34 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulanceoldcrop.jpg)

What has always bothered me about this image....and I have not read anywhere were it was discussed is his nose....it looks like it has bubbles of flesh on it.
Can anyone explain that to me?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: curls on January 08, 2011, 01:59:09 AM
Quote from: "bec"
No he doesn't look dead at all does he. Nor does he look 50 for that matter. He looks fantastic, young, and darker complected then TII MJ.

And clean shaven! Someone mentioned this last night, so sorry I can't remember who it was to give them credit. Not like my husband looks after a long sleepless night!
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 02:03:34 AM
It's got to be a dummy.

This guy's nose looks kinda like that. Guy on the left that is... and he might not even have needed to have a left arm for this film  :lol:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulanceleavemealonedummylarge.jpg)
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: curls on January 08, 2011, 02:05:50 AM
Quote from: "bec"
It's got to be a dummy.

My thoughts exactly!
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: mdc on January 08, 2011, 02:19:47 AM
And EMTs didn't recognize THAT person as Michael Jackson? What rock had they been hiding under?  

Lies...nothing but lies. The picture is a lie, the media reports are lies, the witness testimony reports are lies.  Every time they open their mouths they're telling lies.

I'm tired of lies.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Lovely One on January 08, 2011, 02:20:18 AM
WOW!  :o
I don't see an arm there!!! Looks like a wax dummy to me....
Furthermore, I can tell you that there is something strange about the hair that I can't put my
finger on....
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: kemre on January 08, 2011, 02:30:44 AM
The hair looks too long to me!
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: 2good2btrue on January 08, 2011, 03:13:22 AM
Anna, thanks for finding those pictures....they certainly tell another story.

This is definitely not Michael Jackson, but could be Dimitriou D. who was terminally ill, and was on Diprivan.  
I can't see Michael in those pics at all.........this is DD
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: 2good2btrue on January 08, 2011, 03:32:08 AM
What about this comparison.   Even with just a eyebrow pluck, there is amazing similarities to this guy that supposedly was at respite care at Carolwood Dve under the care of Murray....the terminally ill-patient that died in place of MJ...
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Serenitys_Dream on January 08, 2011, 03:58:53 AM
A little off topic here but you do realize that you can not predict the exact date a terminally ill patient will die, right. So if a real body was used in any of this, the person would have had to die before June 25, 2009 to fit into the numerology of the hoax.

Otherwise, they would have to be an assisted suicide. I don't know what the laws are regarding that in California but Michael is a very religious person and suicide is considered a sin even for the terminally ill. Aiding someone in suicide, from a religious standpoint, is murder.

So either the "death" date is by coincidence and Michael sat around waiting for this person to die, to start his death hoax and that just so happened to occur on June 25, 2009. This seems pretty selfish no matter what the reasons may be for the hoax; lacking in compassion even. And If this is the case then there is no numerology involved at all.

Another problem with this is that Michael told Kenny Ortega that the illusion was starting on June 25. Michael would not have known that his terminally ill look-a-like was going to die the next morning. The double would have already had to pass away but again that negates the numerology. There would have been no guarantee that any ill person would pass away on or before June 25, 2009 so the date could not have been chosen ahead of time.

To me that picture looks like a much younger Michael. I think it is a photoshop or a dummy in a controlled environment and no picture of the inside of the ambulance was even taken on June 25, 2009. We can't see the paramedics faces so we can not identify them either and that is probably for good reasons.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Grace on January 08, 2011, 04:26:07 AM
EXCELLENT bec, thank you!

Look, in the second new picture, there is a closed bag around this emergency kit in front of the left leg of the EMT.
In the first old picture, the bag is open, yet the posing of all three persons is the same.
We knew there were several shots of the picture (different shadows mirrored) but this is definite proof that nothing changed in the vehicle despite opening the (canvas?) bag for use of the kit (or "active" ambience).
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: ~Souza~ on January 08, 2011, 05:11:01 AM
It could be a good idea to look at that picture again. We can clearly see the 2 pics are different, because on the first we can't see the thumb of the EMT 'performing CPR' and on the second one we do see his thumb.

It was also reported that the body was bald, yet we see hair on here. Putting on the wig doesn't make sense, but even if the would have, let's assume that ridiculous story is true, did the also glued on side burns? Or did the body have no hair but only side burns? :?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 08, 2011, 05:13:43 AM
Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
A little off topic here but you do realize that you can not predict the exact date a terminally ill patient will die, right. So if a real body was used in any of this, the person would have had to die before June 25, 2009 to fit into the numerology of the hoax.

Otherwise, they would have to be an assisted suicide. I don't know what the laws are regarding that in California but Michael is a very religious person and suicide is considered a sin even for the terminally ill. Aiding someone in suicide, from a religious standpoint, is murder.

So either the "death" date is by coincidence and Michael sat around waiting for this person to die, to start his death hoax and that just so happened to occur on June 25, 2009. This seems pretty selfish no matter what the reasons may be for the hoax; lacking in compassion even. And If this is the case then there is no numerology involved at all.

Another problem with this is that Michael told Kenny Ortega that the illusion was starting on June 25. Michael would not have known that his terminally ill look-a-like was going to die the next morning. The double would have already had to pass away but again that negates the numerology. There would have been no guarantee that any ill person would pass away on or before June 25, 2009 so the date could not have been chosen ahead of time.

To me that picture looks like a much younger Michael. I think it is a photoshop or a dummy in a controlled environment and no picture of the inside of the ambulance was even taken on June 25, 2009. We can't see the paramedics faces so we can not identify them either and that is probably for good reasons.

I believe that the ambu pic could be staged or shopped.
The body could ve been dead days in advance and kept untill the 25th. The room temperature was high, in June, and the room looked like a hospital.

I thought also about euthanasia.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: loyalfan on January 08, 2011, 05:29:58 AM
HOW in the world can this photo,POSSIBLY BE A WITHERED OLD MAN as was stated by the paramedic...............................AND HOW IS THAT NOT MICHAEL ANYWAYS ....................how much more do we need to be told by michael before we see.........................xxxx




and also that they did not realize it was MJ, and thought it looked like an old man?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: curls on January 08, 2011, 05:41:48 AM
I have huge problems with the idea of someone dying on or before 25th and the use of the corpse in this whole thing. I know that doesn't mean it may not have happened but personally I feel that's overstepping the mark of decency and respect, and MJ would have to come up with a darned good reason for doing it in order for me to feel comfortable with it.

I'm pretty sure he could've made all this happen without resorting to such macabre, gruesome plans, so, until I learn otherwise, I'm going with the (much simpler, IMO) dummy and actors scenario and wouldn't be surprised if nothing at all happened in MJ's bedroom on the morning of 25th June, other than he got up and headed out to the airport, leaving his well briefed cast to start the show. Or alternatively, he slipped on his Murray suit, got the dummy out of the cupboard and made a few phone calls to strategic players to say 'action'!
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: 2good2btrue on January 08, 2011, 05:51:22 AM
Quote from: "Gema"
Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
A little off topic here but you do realize that you can not predict the exact date a terminally ill patient will die, right. So if a real body was used in any of this, the person would have had to die before June 25, 2009 to fit into the numerology of the hoax.

Otherwise, they would have to be an assisted suicide. I don't know what the laws are regarding that in California but Michael is a very religious person and suicide is considered a sin even for the terminally ill. Aiding someone in suicide, from a religious standpoint, is murder.

So either the "death" date is by coincidence and Michael sat around waiting for this person to die, to start his death hoax and that just so happened to occur on June 25, 2009. This seems pretty selfish no matter what the reasons may be for the hoax; lacking in compassion even. And If this is the case then there is no numerology involved at all.

Another problem with this is that Michael told Kenny Ortega that the illusion was starting on June 25. Michael would not have known that his terminally ill look-a-like was going to die the next morning. The double would have already had to pass away but again that negates the numerology. There would have been no guarantee that any ill person would pass away on or before June 25, 2009 so the date could not have been chosen ahead of time.

To me that picture looks like a much younger Michael. I think it is a photoshop or a dummy in a controlled environment and no picture of the inside of the ambulance was even taken on June 25, 2009. We can't see the paramedics faces so we can not identify them either and that is probably for good reasons.

I believe that the ambu pic could be staged or shopped.
The body could ve been dead days in advance and kept untill the 25th. The room temperature was high, in June, and the room looked like a hospital.

I thought also about euthanasia.

Thanks Gema, and thanks Serenity.  I have a strong feeling about the look-a-alike theory that had died with his family the night before, and then tranferred to MJ home, and kept at a high room  temperature to ensure the body seemed like it had died for a few hours.......

It was Dimitriou and his family that chose to have him euthanased, not MJ.  The family could have been compensated well in advance, and sick as it sounds, its amazing what some people would do to help others at the right price.  The man was terminally ill and wanted to die......that is his right, and Murray could have been involved in that part, as witnesses say he was seen running away from Carolwood Dve that morning....
1.  Ben Evenstad's famous quotes.." That day and the other day"
2.  The body had been dead for some time......according to the paramedics..
And the paramedics are in court and can't lie about a wax dummy either....

So I feel, it is possible the it was Dimitriou....and the coroners who performed the autopsy, have also sworn on the bible in court..........

The numerology part of it is something that had to be planned in advance.

How would illuminous theo have known so much about this??????
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Grace on January 08, 2011, 06:44:34 AM
The said above is completely contradicting any "planned hoax" theory and the dots we have witnessed to date.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: jill on January 08, 2011, 08:42:43 AM
I believe that the ambu pic could be staged or shopped.
The body could ve been dead days in advance and kept untill the 25th. The room temperature was high, in June, and the room looked like a hospital.

I thought also about euthanasia.



This is a good point but the problem with that is if the body was kept in this warm atmosphere for few days it would deteriorate very quickly and begin to smell!  Even if a body was kept cold and them warmed up it would take a very long time to warm up the core temperature.  It just doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 08, 2011, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: "jill"
I believe that the ambu pic could be staged or shopped.
The body could ve been dead days in advance and kept untill the 25th. The room temperature was high, in June, and the room looked like a hospital.

I thought also about euthanasia.



This is a good point but the problem with that is if the body was kept in this warm atmosphere for few days it would deteriorate very quickly and begin to smell!  Even if a body was kept cold and them warmed up it would take a very long time to warm up the core temperature.  It just doesn't make sense.

The body could have been kept cold, not frozen.

Under normal temperature, rigor mortis usually occurs within 3-4 hours after clinical death.
Maximum stiffness is reached around 12-24 hours post mortem (after the death).
Depending on temperature and other conditions, rigor mortis lasts approximately 72 hours and starts fading after 12 hours.

The body was cold but the room was warm as they reported, the body was at "room temperature". Under normal conditions the body equals the room temperature after 24 hours.

If the body died hours before as they are saying, the body should have had signs of rigor mortis already...or being on the way.

The body, if died before, should have been with days in advance, after the rigor mortis fades.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 08, 2011, 09:21:09 AM
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: momof3kids on January 08, 2011, 09:55:02 AM
Quote from: "Gema"
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.

I don't know how things work in California, but here in North Dakota, this is not true.  My husbands grandma died in her home a couple of years ago, and was she taken to the hospital.  Her husband has alzheimers and didn't understand what was happening. She had passed many hours prior to him calling 911.  An ambulance came and got her and brought her to the hospital even though she was dead, and had been dead for quite while (the medics estimated about 4 hours).
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 08, 2011, 09:56:45 AM
Quote from: "momof3kids"
Quote from: "Gema"
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.

I don't know how things work in California, but here in North Dakota, this is not true.  My husbands grandma died in her home a couple of years ago, and was she taken to the hospital.  Her husband has alzheimers and didn't understand what was happening. She had passed many hours prior to him calling 911.  An ambulance came and got her and brought her to the hospital even though she was dead, and had been dead for quite while (the medics estimated about 4 hours).

But then a doctor would have proclaim her dead and then taken to the hospital.

No doctor proclaimed Michael dead at his home.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: momof3kids on January 08, 2011, 10:10:08 AM
Quote from: "Gema"
Quote from: "momof3kids"
Quote from: "Gema"
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.

I don't know how things work in California, but here in North Dakota, this is not true.  My husbands grandma died in her home a couple of years ago, and was she taken to the hospital.  Her husband has alzheimers and didn't understand what was happening. She had passed many hours prior to him calling 911.  An ambulance came and got her and brought her to the hospital even though she was dead, and had been dead for quite while (the medics estimated about 4 hours).

But then a doctor would have proclaim her dead and then taken to the hospital.

No doctor proclaimed Michael dead at his home.

Ok...I just wanted to point out that a dead peron can be rushed to the hospital in an ambulance.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: xxmjxx on January 08, 2011, 10:28:37 AM
Quote from: "Gema"
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.
Yes i never thought of that.  :?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: suspicious mind on January 08, 2011, 10:30:38 AM
keeps comming back to my mind about murry supposededly coming in eveynight and leaving in the mornings with those oxygen tanks.

also anyone know if they fingerprint a corpse, pershaps if there is some uncertaintly about things :?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 08, 2011, 10:37:13 AM
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
keeps comming back to my mind about murry supposededly coming in eveynight and leaving in the mornings with those oxygen tanks.

also anyone know if they fingerprint a corpse, pershaps if there is some uncertaintly about things :?

I copy and paste a translation of a journal:

In the criminal investigation, there are basically three ways to identify a body, which are:

Display of the corpse.

Information from witnesses.

Fingerprinting.

The first two are very useful, when the body is deformed and the possibility that some people can recognize.

The fingerprinting become important when there is an absence of witnesses who can identify the body or that it is in advanced state of putrefaction. We must take into account that the taking or harvesting of digital printing depends on the conditions he finds the corpse.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 11:12:18 AM
There's no way authorities would be fooled by a long dead body or donated corpse. *Even if* you could get it past EMTs, the coroner would know immediately if a body that supposedly died June 25th had been dead for days, even if chilled or frozen and then thawed out.

Forensic science is an advanced practice at this point in time.

Body temperature is not that crucial to determine time of death, it is only one factor plugged into a formula (equation) to determine how long since dead.

All these last 2 pages have done is rehash what we went over in 2009. Let's look at what's new.


ZOOM OUT.

What is visible in the pic that wasn't visible before?
Look at the area on this MJ in the ambulance pic that should include his  left shoulder and arm. I focused on it in a pic with yellow box on the previous page. What you see is the area around his collar bone under and to the left of the EMTs hand. beyond and below that is.... nothing. This MJ is missing his left shoulder and arm.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: mjssoulmate on January 08, 2011, 11:22:47 AM
One thing I never noticed before is that there is a BandAid above the right eyebrow.  Did he wear a BandAid during the last rehearsal?  Was it a cut, scrape, or what?  Is anything mentioned in the autopsy report that would correlate with that?  
Also it was mentioned that the face was covered with a towel, but Ben Evenstad said he could clearly see that it was Mike when they brought him out.  But then again he also said that at the time he didn't know who it was in the ambulance.  
As far as rushing a dead body to the ambulance... Well, we all know their seemed to be no rushing at all.  Murray was still clearing the room of vials, while the EMT's waited for him.  The ambulance backed out at a snail's pace.  No rush!
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Lovely One on January 08, 2011, 11:34:08 AM
My opinion on this is that IF this man died in Michael's place, then he agreed to die by propofol
injection on June 25th. Meanwhile, Michael took off and was long gone. The ambulance photos
were photoshopped of course.
I bet this look-alike's family was paid well in return. Remember the 2 million dollars that supposedly
was missing in Michael's house??
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Tarja on January 08, 2011, 11:51:18 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Anna, thanks for finding those pictures....they certainly tell another story.

This is definitely not Michael Jackson, but could be Dimitriou D. who was terminally ill, and was on Diprivan.  
I can't see Michael in those pics at all.........this is DD

You mean Dimitrie Draghicescu? the photo might be taken before he had surgeries. I know he died but a few years ago. Did he die in 2009? Although I don't believe he passed by Michael on june 25.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 11:55:10 AM
Again,

Quote from: "bec"
There's no way authorities would be fooled by a long dead body or donated corpse. *Even if* you could get it past EMTs, the coroner would know immediately if a body that supposedly died June 25th had been dead for days, even if chilled or frozen and then thawed out.

Forensic science is an advanced practice at this point in time.

Body temperature is not that crucial to determine time of death, it is only one factor plugged into a formula (equation) to determine how long since dead.

All these last 2 pages have done is rehash what we went over in 2009. Let's look at what's new.


ZOOM OUT.

What is visible in the pic that wasn't visible before?
Look at the area on this MJ in the ambulance pic that should include his  left shoulder and arm. I focused on it in a pic with yellow box on the previous page. What you see is the area around his collar bone under and to the left of the EMTs hand. beyond and below that is.... nothing. This MJ is missing his left shoulder and arm.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: ~Souza~ on January 08, 2011, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Again,

Quote from: "bec"
There's no way authorities would be fooled by a long dead body or donated corpse. *Even if* you could get it past EMTs, the coroner would know immediately if a body that supposedly died June 25th had been dead for days, even if chilled or frozen and then thawed out.

Forensic science is an advanced practice at this point in time.

Body temperature is not that crucial to determine time of death, it is only one factor plugged into a formula (equation) to determine how long since dead.

All these last 2 pages have done is rehash what we went over in 2009. Let's look at what's new.


ZOOM OUT.

What is visible in the pic that wasn't visible before?
Look at the area on this MJ in the ambulance pic that should include his  left shoulder and arm. I focused on it in a pic with yellow box on the previous page. What you see is the area around his collar bone under and to the left of the EMTs hand. beyond and below that is.... nothing. This MJ is missing his left shoulder and arm.
I still think there could have been a dead body. Maybe assistent suicide in the morning and by fucking with the heat in the room, the time of death could be hard to determine. I'm not a doctor, but it seems logical. Maybe the dead body wasn't the initial plan, but maybe that person knew about the plan, got terminally ill just by coincidence and wanted to help out. Wasn't there a rumour back then that there were 2 ambulances leaving the house? One from the other side? Ambulance 71 with the dummy could have been a distraction to get the real ambulance out safely. But I'm not sure how that works in the US. Here in Holland they are not allowed to transport a dead body in an ambulance. Sometimes they do, but then they wait with the death pronounciation until they are on their way. Maybe that is why 'MJ' was not pronounced dead at the scene? If he has help from government officials and if it is as big as we think it is, this could all be done.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 12:14:19 PM
@Souza, it's not hard to determine time of death at all, not as far as being able to tell if it's a long dead body or a newly dead body, not in the slightest bit. That's forensics, and it's an established science. Temperature is fairly irrelevant. People die in less then climate controlled environments all the time.

Pressure of the fluid in the eyeballs, presence and location and progression of rigor, and presence, location, and composition of food stuff within the digestive system render temperature of the body irrelevant.

Besides all that, just *look* at the ambulance pic. That's not a hospice patient. That's not even a 50yo man. That's not even, I think, a complete body.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: SoldierofLOVE on January 08, 2011, 12:21:28 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
It was also reported that the body was bald, yet we see hair on here. Putting on the wig doesn't make sense, but even if the would have, let's assume that ridiculous story is true, did the also glued on side burns? Or did the body have no hair but only side burns? :?


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Everything is just making me crack up today.  I mean, this is very serious business but what the media is trying to make us believe is for the RidicuLIST.

Thanks bec for this great find.  To me, this pic puts it all in perspective doesn't it?

As mdc said, the person in this ambulance pic clearly looks like Michael Jackson right?  So how did the EMT's not recognize him?  And of course, the old man comment doesn't work with this pic at all.    Souza: Sideburns is hilarious to think about.  Runfayalife points out the bubbling of the nose.  Not to mention the coloring of MJ who had vitiligo and was 4 shades lighter than this picture.  Not to mention the youthfulness.  If we saw MJ in TII from 6/24, he looked like himself right?  So he went home and no longer looked like himself?  I guess this is possible if you take off your make-up and all but how probable is it?  NOT.

And then, let's not forget the completely FLAT board covered in a white sheet.  No blue body bag and no one can look that flat on a stretcher.  It's really right in front of our face. ILLUSION.

I agree with those of you who say there was No Body. The numerology is too much for it to be a coincidence and 6/25/09 had to be the day but you couldn't have predicted that a sick person would die on that day at the right time in the afternoon even if it was expected that the person would die soon.  I'm perplexed by the oxygen tanks though.  Just a prop?  

All laughing aside, imo, this hoax  is the result of a serious matter and the coroner, EMT's, UCLA, etc. are all a part of the necessary cover-up/protection.   As to why, we'll have to Keep Watchin'
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Grace on January 08, 2011, 12:32:08 PM
OK, a closer look, zooming at both photos.
Blue circles are giving the eyes and faces, the green square is giving the position of the turn light on the red car.
Hmmmm. How could the turn light slip from exactly being centered over the tire to the left in the "new" picture?

Old photo:
[attachment=1:vpoygios]ambulance_old_eyes.jpg[/attachment:vpoygios]


"New" photo:
[attachment=0:vpoygios]ambulance_new_eyes.jpg[/attachment:vpoygios]

This is what a red Toyota Prius looks like in reality:
(http://cdn.used-car-photos.co.uk/d/used-photos/29427/400x/0/0/YH06DNU.jpg)

This is where the turn light is sitting in reality:
(http://cdn.used-car-photos.co.uk/d/used-photos/26049/400x/2/0/YA07TZH.jpg)

And this is what Ben Evenstad had to say about a red Toyota Prius:
Quote
"He left the house one time in a red Toyota Prius. And they drove around for about four hours. Michael and the kids never got out of the car once. The bodyguard would pick up the ice cream or the pizza and then put it inside the car," said Ben Evenstad, a photographer and the head of National Photo Group.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/MichaelJackson/story?id=8215396&page=2

So was the red car Michael's car or was it Ben's car that he lent to Michael for a joyride with the kids?
How entertaining is this?
 ;)
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 12:32:50 PM
Quote from: "SoldierofLOVE"
I agree with those of you who say there was No Body. The numerology is too much for it to be a coincidence and 6/25/09 had to be the day but you couldn't have predicted that a sick person would die on that day at the right time in the afternoon even if it was expected that the person would die soon.  I'm perplexed by the oxygen tanks though.  Just a prop?  [/color]

Indeed. And forensic science negates the possibility that the body was old.

Oxygen tanks: O2, hyperbaric chamber, famous photograph=classic MJ media hoax, imo.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: PeaceLoveHappiness on January 08, 2011, 12:56:05 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
It could be a good idea to look at that picture again. We can clearly see the 2 pics are different, because on the first we can't see the thumb of the EMT 'performing CPR' and on the second one we do see his thumb.

It was also reported that the body was bald, yet we see hair on here. Putting on the wig doesn't make sense, but even if the would have, let's assume that ridiculous story is true, did the also glued on side burns? Or did the body have no hair but only side burns? :?


The sideburns have always bothered me too.  I can understand maybe putting the wig on out of respect (although it would be a little hypocritical after having just killed him!), but I can see it as a possibility.  But the sideburns look pretty secure in the ambulance photo, and I had thought that the long sideburns were part of the wig.  So basically Michael goes from being a bald hospice patient with a shower cap over his head, to a hair-covered head complete with long sideburns in the ambulance, back to a semi-bald head with peach fuzz in the hospital?  That doesn't make sense to me.  And how many hospice patients wear make-up and have dark black (without a hint of gray), sculpted eyebrows?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: PeaceLoveHappiness on January 08, 2011, 12:58:03 PM
Quote from: "Gema"
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.


Yes, but the paramedics testified that Murray insisted that Michael be taken to the hospital, and as the Doctor, his say would trump that of the paramedics.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: PeaceLoveHappiness on January 08, 2011, 01:00:36 PM
Quote from: "Gema"
Quote from: "suspicious mind"
keeps comming back to my mind about murry supposededly coming in eveynight and leaving in the mornings with those oxygen tanks.

also anyone know if they fingerprint a corpse, pershaps if there is some uncertaintly about things :?

I copy and paste a translation of a journal:

In the criminal investigation, there are basically three ways to identify a body, which are:

Display of the corpse.

Information from witnesses.

Fingerprinting.

The first two are very useful, when the body is deformed and the possibility that some people can recognize.

The fingerprinting become important when there is an absence of witnesses who can identify the body or that it is in advanced state of putrefaction. We must take into account that the taking or harvesting of digital printing depends on the conditions he finds the corpse.


I suspect he wasn't fingerprinted since there were family members present saying the person was Michael.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: libra8 on January 08, 2011, 01:01:24 PM
I read that Michael collects mannequins, maybe this picture is just one of his mannequins...
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: PeaceLoveHappiness on January 08, 2011, 01:06:03 PM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "SoldierofLOVE"
I agree with those of you who say there was No Body. The numerology is too much for it to be a coincidence and 6/25/09 had to be the day but you couldn't have predicted that a sick person would die on that day at the right time in the afternoon even if it was expected that the person would die soon.  I'm perplexed by the oxygen tanks though.  Just a prop?  [/color]

Indeed. And forensic science negates the possibility that the body was old.

Oxygen tanks: O2, hyperbaric chamber, famous photograph=classic MJ media hoax, imo.


I still think there is a possibility that whoever died really did die on the 25th.  Perhaps the person had a living will and was being kept alive on life support until Michael was ready for the death.  I realize how morbid that sounds, but if someone agreed to be a dead Michael, they probably also agreed to life support until their body was needed.  Or maybe the person just died on their own on the 25th.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 08, 2011, 03:20:20 PM
With cronotanato diagnosis, which are the phenomena that occur after death, the coroner or medical examiner can diagnose the death time.

What about dehydration?.  Was said in the AR that "Michael" was dehydrated.

Dehydration appears from the eighth hour post mortem. Is given by the evaporation of body water, which is about 10 to 15 grams per kilogram of body weight per day. This is manifested by signs such as depression of the eyeballs.

An autopsy performed in a dummy? or a fake autopsy?

What if the so called autopsy is just a dramatization of the medical examination that Michael needed to pass in the past when he was accused?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 08, 2011, 03:21:40 PM
Quote from: "PeaceLoveHappiness"

I still think there is a possibility that whoever died really did die on the 25th.  Perhaps the person had a living will and was being kept alive on life support until Michael was ready for the death.  

Makes sense as well.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: still looking on January 08, 2011, 03:34:57 PM
If you recall the early autopsy report states that rigamortis had  started and blood had pooled to the back of the body. I recall something about when they lifted the body it made a crease line from bending it. It would take longer than the time frame released of early 6/25 for this to occur. But this is only if you beleive what we are told. If you have FEDERAL assistance you can tell anything to anybody at anytime. No limit to paperwork.No problem with transportation, no issue with the aftermath. If they want it done its done. What is more important to me is why would MJ do any of this? and will we EVER know the real troot?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 08, 2011, 03:37:48 PM
I need to read the AR again, and I need to read the real one.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: peterpanswendy on January 08, 2011, 03:46:36 PM
Over the past 19 months, I've learned to never say what someone would and would not do. However, I don't think there was a real corpse because that could easily be discovered, unless the coroner is involved in the hoax. Plus, there are ethical and moral reasons why I don't agree with that theory. A dummy makes a lot more sense (which means the coroner would still be involved, so would thr EMTs)

And yeah, the left side does look armless, but I would need to take a closer look.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: 2 Bad on January 08, 2011, 04:37:44 PM
Quote from: "peterpanswendy"
Over the past 19 months, I've learned to never say what someone would and would not do. However, I don't think there was a real corpse because that could easily be discovered, unless the coroner is involved in the hoax. Plus, there are ethical and moral reasons why I don't agree with that theory. A dummy makes a lot more sense (which means the coroner would still be involved, so would thr EMTs)

And yeah, the left side does look armless, but I would need to take a closer look.

I'm going to agree, this is not a real body. Mj did have dummies of himself, I don't recall who has said it (many) but they said it as a fact over the years.
This scenario does involve more (Dr, EMT's etc) but the eyes are not seeing what we should be seeing in those pix, not to mention the little differences on this supposedly only photo. Different versions add to the ?? :o ?? We saw big differences early and now seeing more is so confusing.

With all the pre-trial testimony this week I'm sure I am not alone in re-living that dreadful day. I'm more calm but I am still outraged at the insensitivity from the media. I sensed "lies" back then, I am screaming "lies" right now.
Thank you for bringing this topic up again, just as the topic on the O2 announcement new points are being made every day. The past holds the key to the future I guess.

We Love you Michael but you have some of us so frazzled we are loosing our minds!
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: onemoretime on January 08, 2011, 05:08:53 PM
Quote from: "bec"
It's got to be a dummy.

This guy's nose looks kinda like that. Guy on the left that is... and he might not even have needed to have a left arm for this film  :lol:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulanceleavemealonedummylarge.jpg)

When looking at Michael's ear in this picture I see a more rounded left ear, like a cute baby has, whereas the left ear on the ambulance photo is shaped like a triangle, with the sideburns adjacent. Did Michael ever have such sideburns? I never noticed them.
I remember one impersonator had such similar shaped ear form, but do not recall his name at the moment.
The darker complexion and color of the face resembles ECas', without MJ-impersonator make-up, more Asian descent. Maybe ECas as MJ impersonator stood model for a dummy, or it was the living one on the stretcher. I don't see any resemblance to the other Dimitriu guy mentioned.
Michael's face was rather white, not to say pale as porcelain skin. The ambulance guy looks different and  younger.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: mrbigshot on January 08, 2011, 06:00:42 PM
http://www.tmz.com/2007/04/17/michael-j ... -compound/ (http://www.tmz.com/2007/04/17/michael-jackson-made-of-fiberglass-modeling-compound/)

found this article by TMZ to be rather interesting.


(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2007/04/17/0416_mj_ebay_doll-1.jpg)
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: skyways on January 08, 2011, 07:10:19 PM
Did we have CLEAR VIEW OF THE PATCH ON PARAMEDICS UNIFORM NOW ??
if everyone remember, that mystery also left unsolved...  previously =D
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Cameron on January 08, 2011, 07:13:21 PM
Quote from: "skyways"
Did we have CLEAR VIEW OF THE PATCH ON PARAMEDICS UNIFORM NOW ??
if everyone remember, that mystery also left unsolved...  previously =D

Wow, I was thinking about the logo on the uniform, but then I saw your comment, we had the same idea :)
So, is the logo the real logo of Los Angeles paramedics, or something ?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: 2 Bad on January 08, 2011, 08:08:55 PM
Loyal Fan said
" HOW in the world can this photo,POSSIBLY BE A WITHERED OLD MAN as was stated by the paramedic...............................AND HOW IS THAT NOT MICHAEL ANYWAYS ....................how much more do we need to be told by michael before we see.........................xxxx"

Yes and add this-
"The career paramedic dashed into Michael Jackson's bedroom, looked around and listened to a doctor's explanation for why the singer was ostensibly lifeless and came to the conclusion that things didn't add up.

Richard Senneff said the gaunt patient, an IV stand and bag next to the bed and the presence of Dr. Conrad Murray pointed more to a hospice patient, not an international pop superstar about to embark a series of London concerts...."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2011/ ... z1AV1lo3cd (http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2011/01/06/2011-01-06_michael_jacksons_children_watched_him_die_witness_testifies_in_trial_of_doctor_c.html#ixzz1AV1lo3cd)

So the hospice patient is who? All an illusion!!!

Talk about a 19 month roller coaster ride.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: 2good2btrue on January 08, 2011, 08:22:18 PM
Paramedic is supposedly doing


ONE HANDED CPR  :?  :?  :?


and is facing to the back of the ambulance.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: puremind on January 08, 2011, 08:37:20 PM
Doctor Who is an actor and he knows how to properly do  CPR.
So Murray must be a bad actor or a fake doctor or a real dr who got too scared because his victim was Michael or the witness is lying.
But why do paramedics follow the same one handed CPR?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on January 08, 2011, 08:44:20 PM
Quote from: "puremind"
Doctor Who is an actor and he knows how to properly do  CPR.
So Murray must be a bad actor or a fake doctor or a real dr who got too scared because his victim was Michael or the witness is lying.
But why do paramedics follow the same one handed CPR?


Like Michael did, he use to call his actor friends who drove ambulances just for jokes. So these men are his friends who are actors and who do not know how to performe CPR.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: puremind on January 08, 2011, 08:52:35 PM
oh, no oscar for them this year
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 08, 2011, 11:41:48 PM
Quote from: "skyways"
Did we have CLEAR VIEW OF THE PATCH ON PARAMEDICS UNIFORM NOW ??
if everyone remember, that mystery also left unsolved...  previously =D

Yes it was clear enough always to verify that it is the current badge. It doesn't much prove anything though because anyone can buy that patch online.
http://www.fireattire.com/Merchant2/mer ... ory_Code=P (http://www.fireattire.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FA&Product_Code=P-Off-Blk&Category_Code=P)
http://www.911patches.com/servlet/the-U ... Categories (http://www.911patches.com/servlet/the-US-Fire-and-EMS-Patches/Categories)
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: scorpionchik on January 08, 2011, 11:52:30 PM
Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
A little off topic here but you do realize that you can not predict the exact date a terminally ill patient will die, right. So if a real body was used in any of this, the person would have had to die before June 25, 2009 to fit into the numerology of the hoax.
Otherwise, they would have to be an assisted suicide. I don't know what the laws are regarding that in California but Michael is a very religious person and suicide is considered a sin even for the terminally ill. Aiding someone in suicide, from a religious standpoint, is murder.
So either the "death" date is by coincidence and Michael sat around waiting for this person to die, to start his death hoax and that just so happened to occur on June 25, 2009. This seems pretty selfish no matter what the reasons may be for the hoax; lacking in compassion even. And If this is the case then there is no numerology involved at all.
Another problem with this is that Michael told Kenny Ortega that the illusion was starting on June 25. Michael would not have known that his terminally ill look-a-like was going to die the next morning. The double would have already had to pass away but again that negates the numerology. There would have been no guarantee that any ill person would pass away on or before June 25, 2009 so the date could not have been chosen ahead of time.
To me that picture looks like a much younger Michael. I think it is a photoshop or a dummy in a controlled environment and no picture of the inside of the ambulance was even taken on June 25, 2009. We can't see the paramedics faces so we can not identify them either and that is probably for good reasons.

I disagree. Cancer patient life time can be detemined according to the stage and aggressiveness of the cancer.Hoax was planned long time ago. How do we know if Michael was not taking care of patient for a while and new when he will die. Michael would never kill him to realize hoax. It is possible that  "ILLUSION" MJ was preparing IS the HOAX, meaning everybody is in illusion believing that Michael died. In fact, the 1 single photo of MJ in ambulance is photoshop of young MJ, another illusion
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: scorpionchik on January 08, 2011, 11:57:13 PM
Quote from: "2 Bad"
Quote from: "peterpanswendy"
Over the past 19 months, I've learned to never say what someone would and would not do. However, I don't think there was a real corpse because that could easily be discovered, unless the coroner is involved in the hoax. Plus, there are ethical and moral reasons why I don't agree with that theory. A dummy makes a lot more sense (which means the coroner would still be involved, so would thr EMTs)

And yeah, the left side does look armless, but I would need to take a closer look.

I'm going to agree, this is not a real body. Mj did have dummies of himself, I don't recall who has said it (many) but they said it as a fact over the years.

I disagree to this statement as well. Remember we have autposy. Dummy could not get autopsy. Finally, paramedics did not recognize Michael, but they would distinguish real body from dummy. there was a dead body : EITHER MICHAEL OR DIMITRY.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: puremind on January 08, 2011, 11:58:57 PM
i think it was dimitrov and behind the mask and bucharest concert is a clue
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: mjssoulmate on January 09, 2011, 12:09:33 AM
According to the summary of the prelim from Thursday or Friday, one of the EMT's was a handsome black man.  On the stand he said he was sitting at the head of the patient on the ride to the hospital.  Does that arm look like it belongs to a black man?  He's seems very light to me.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 09, 2011, 01:50:31 AM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "2 Bad"
Quote from: "peterpanswendy"
Over the past 19 months, I've learned to never say what someone would and would not do. However, I don't think there was a real corpse because that could easily be discovered, unless the coroner is involved in the hoax. Plus, there are ethical and moral reasons why I don't agree with that theory. A dummy makes a lot more sense (which means the coroner would still be involved, so would thr EMTs)

And yeah, the left side does look armless, but I would need to take a closer look.

I'm going to agree, this is not a real body. Mj did have dummies of himself, I don't recall who has said it (many) but they said it as a fact over the years.

I disagree to this statement as well. Remember we have autposy. Dummy could not get autopsy. Finally, paramedics did not recognize Michael, but they would distinguish real body from dummy. there was a dead body : EITHER MICHAEL OR DIMITRY.

I don't have any reason to believe the autopsy is real. Paramedics would also distinguish a hospice patient from the guy we saw in this pic:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/fcfbec/ambulancecrop.jpg)
who is certainly not old, bald, or frail.

The EMTs haven't told an accurate account since day one, we don't have any reason to believe them.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: puremind on January 09, 2011, 01:57:42 AM
i think the autopsy is not real and most of all papers are fake. but in this case Michael goes to jail.
so it can't be that.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Serenitys_Dream on January 09, 2011, 02:01:00 AM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
A little off topic here but you do realize that you can not predict the exact date a terminally ill patient will die, right. So if a real body was used in any of this, the person would have had to die before June 25, 2009 to fit into the numerology of the hoax.
Otherwise, they would have to be an assisted suicide. I don't know what the laws are regarding that in California but Michael is a very religious person and suicide is considered a sin even for the terminally ill. Aiding someone in suicide, from a religious standpoint, is murder.
So either the "death" date is by coincidence and Michael sat around waiting for this person to die, to start his death hoax and that just so happened to occur on June 25, 2009. This seems pretty selfish no matter what the reasons may be for the hoax; lacking in compassion even. And If this is the case then there is no numerology involved at all.
Another problem with this is that Michael told Kenny Ortega that the illusion was starting on June 25. Michael would not have known that his terminally ill look-a-like was going to die the next morning. The double would have already had to pass away but again that negates the numerology. There would have been no guarantee that any ill person would pass away on or before June 25, 2009 so the date could not have been chosen ahead of time.
To me that picture looks like a much younger Michael. I think it is a photoshop or a dummy in a controlled environment and no picture of the inside of the ambulance was even taken on June 25, 2009. We can't see the paramedics faces so we can not identify them either and that is probably for good reasons.

I disagree. Cancer patient life time can be detemined according to the stage and aggressiveness of the cancer.Hoax was planned long time ago. How do we know if Michael was not taking care of patient for a while and new when he will die. Michael would never kill him to realize hoax. It is possible that  "ILLUSION" MJ was preparing IS the HOAX, meaning everybody is in illusion believing that Michael died. In fact, the 1 single photo of MJ in ambulance is photoshop of young MJ, another illusion
You can not predict the EXACT date that a terminally ill patient will pass away. If you can not know the exact date then there is no numerology in this hoax, if it is a hoax.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: puremind on January 09, 2011, 02:21:59 AM
My opinion, numerology can't be related in this hoax. I don't think he could plan everything in advance at fixed dates because this hoax depended  on too many people and unexpected external events. I believe numerology is interesting but not a tool for planning things, just a tool for predicting things or analysing things from the past in their vibrational structure. i used to do tarot readings and i used to combine numerology because it helped, at that moment i know i've read a lot of books about it, but not once i have seen a chapter about planning things according to numbers. Because you can't fool the Universe by using its secrets. If you do this, then it's no symbol it's just something artificially created.
In numerology, the date 25.06 is important AFTER it happened because it happened naturally. It's like the difference between a dream and imagination.
I imagine somethings, so it's artificial, not real, not natural (or plan the day) - this doesn't mean anything as a symbol
I have a dream, it came naturally in my sleep (the event has happened) - this may be a symbol. May be.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Serenitys_Dream on January 09, 2011, 02:24:53 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Paramedic is supposedly doing

(http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/download/file.php?id=11692)

ONE HANDED CPR  :?  :?  :?

That is not one handed CPR. Only one arm is clearly visible because of the angle in which the photo was taken, the paramedics position and hand placement when doing CPR.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/CPR.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/CPR2.png)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/CPR3.png)
http://www.firstaidweb.com/adult4.html
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: puremind on January 09, 2011, 02:27:48 AM
Oh, great finding.
So it's a right CPR hmm
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: 2 Bad on January 09, 2011, 02:30:32 AM
" I don't have any reason to believe the autopsy is real. Paramedics would also distinguish a hospice patient from the guy we saw in this pic:"

Yes Souza I meant the ambulance pic could be a dummy not what the EMT's saw/say nor the autopsy report. Those are big parts of this but the ambulance pic is the most fake of pretty much all we've seen. (Except the Forrest Lawn crypt- fake)  :lol:

The new photo version is what we are discussing right? <g> Well dang how many other versions are there going to be?! Oh wait, different versions for just about everything!!!!, scuse'  :lol:  :lol:
Oh and you can get badges on ebay!  It cracks me up.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Serenitys_Dream on January 09, 2011, 02:32:32 AM
Quote from: "puremind"
My opinion, numerology can't be related in this hoax. I don't think he could plan everything in advance at fixed dates because this hoax depended  on too many people and unexpected external events. I believe numerology is interesting but not a tool for planning things, just a tool for predicting things or analysing things from the past in their vibrational structure. i used to do tarot readings and i used to combine numerology because it helped, at that moment i know i've read a lot of books about it, but not once i have seen a chapter about planning things according to numbers. Because you can't fool the Universe by using its secrets. If you do this, then it's no symbol it's just something artificially created.
In numerology, the date 25.06 is important AFTER it happened because it happened naturally. It's like the difference between a dream and imagination.
I imagine somethings (or plan the day) - this doesn't mean anything as a symbol
I have a dream (the event has happened) - this may be a symbol.
If Numerology isn't part of any hoax here then TS is not a true informer and many of things we have discovered are not relevant to any hoax that may have been perpetrated. Since there are many similarities to Elvis death, he was into numerology, and it is theorized that Elvis has hoaxed his death...if this is a hoax, than numerology can not be ruled out. There is also the number 7 as it relates to Michael, his wearing repeatedly the number 777, and dates that seem to have been purposely chosen due to a numerological significance to consider.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 09, 2011, 02:39:51 AM
No, I'm sorry SD, the pic does not show proper, by-the-book CPR technique. Only one set of fingers is visible. If the hands were placed on top of each other, two sets of fingers would be visible the right set under the left, or as per proper procedure, the fingers should be interlaced. and the heel of the top hand pressing onto the top of the other.

Even if one were to try and argue that this is one individual's personal, confident professional technique, the angle of the EMTs left hand is so positioned, that in order to have it placed on top of his right with any kind of downward leverage gained at all, he would have to dislocate his shoulders or hyper extend his elbows to stack his hands in such a way as to have the fingers face opposite directions so that the bottom set does not show in the pic. Try it yourself and you will see what I mean.

The most likely explanation for the EMT to be in this position is that at the time the pic was taken, he has stopped compressions and is reaching for something with his right hand up high and to the rear of the cabin. I don't know what is positioned there that he might be reaching for or maybe he's just no longer acting since the ambulance is pulling away from the scene and there's no further need to put on any facade, maybe he's purposefully holding a one armed pose so that the guy in the side window can get a wacky shot that is consistent with reports of Murray's one armed CPR.

Because you have to admit, it's hella ironic to have the EMT in the ambulance pic appear to be doing the same one armed CPR that Murray was ridiculed for doing in the news, and is being accused of being negligent for doing so by the witnesses and indirectly by the prosecution in the prelim hearing this past week.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: puremind on January 09, 2011, 02:45:56 AM
Serenity, I know about Michael and his 7 's.
I am also haunted by 3's and 4's, all my life i've been.
Most of my important dates happened to occur on exactly those days or combinations.
And i guess this happens to all of you here with certain numbers or dates. He was also mystical i am sure he knew what 7 meant and he liked the energy of this number.
But that doesn't mean anything for the hoax. And i think i can have an opinion since in my past it was more or less a hobby. I also know for a fact , that in both, tarot and numerology, the answer may be given by our wishes. This is why someone else, who has no idea about that specific situation, must read those numbers or cards. In numerology is even more tricky because you can obtain any number from various combinations.
I am not sure if TS is an informer or a numerologist. If he is a numerologist and a believer he may be influenced by his beliefs (this is why i stopped doing readings for Michael). If he is an informer, then i don't know why using numerology for already known facts.
PS Bec, we don't know when the shot was taken, could be before CPR or after, or as Serenity well pointed maybe the angle is tricky. Here we can not be sure of anything in such way to try to convince someone else of what we see.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Serenitys_Dream on January 09, 2011, 03:00:39 AM
Quote from: "bec"
No, I'm sorry SD, the pic does not show proper, by-the-book CPR technique. Only one set of fingers is visible. If the hands were placed on top of each other, two sets of fingers would be visible the right set under the left, or as per proper procedure, the fingers should be interlaced. and the heel of the top hand pressing onto the top of the other.
I see two arms in the picture or what appears to be 2 arms. Photoshopped to make it 2 arms maybe but it appears too thick to be just a single arm.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: all4loveandbelieve on January 09, 2011, 03:02:53 AM
Quote from: "scorpionchik"
Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
A little off topic here but you do realize that you can not predict the exact date a terminally ill patient will die, right. So if a real body was used in any of this, the person would have had to die before June 25, 2009 to fit into the numerology of the hoax.
Otherwise, they would have to be an assisted suicide. I don't know what the laws are regarding that in California but Michael is a very religious person and suicide is considered a sin even for the terminally ill. Aiding someone in suicide, from a religious standpoint, is murder.
So either the "death" date is by coincidence and Michael sat around waiting for this person to die, to start his death hoax and that just so happened to occur on June 25, 2009. This seems pretty selfish no matter what the reasons may be for the hoax; lacking in compassion even. And If this is the case then there is no numerology involved at all.
Another problem with this is that Michael told Kenny Ortega that the illusion was starting on June 25. Michael would not have known that his terminally ill look-a-like was going to die the next morning. The double would have already had to pass away but again that negates the numerology. There would have been no guarantee that any ill person would pass away on or before June 25, 2009 so the date could not have been chosen ahead of time.
To me that picture looks like a much younger Michael. I think it is a photoshop or a dummy in a controlled environment and no picture of the inside of the ambulance was even taken on June 25, 2009. We can't see the paramedics faces so we can not identify them either and that is probably for good reasons.

I disagree. Cancer patient life time can be detemined according to the stage and aggressiveness of the cancer.Hoax was planned long time ago. How do we know if Michael was not taking care of patient for a while and new when he will die. Michael would never kill him to realize hoax. It is possible that  "ILLUSION" MJ was preparing IS the HOAX, meaning everybody is in illusion believing that Michael died. In fact, the 1 single photo of MJ in ambulance is photoshop of young MJ, another illusion

I will disagree with you here. My mother was diagnosed with lung cancer last november2010 with stage 4 . She never smoked in her life. The doctor told us that it is usless for her to do chemo he gave her 6 months to live. Well my friends I have news for you she is still alive and kicking. We told her that she will do chemo and what ever treatment she needed she will do. Now she is taking chemo pills he cancer mass is shrinking but still not totally gone. You see  you cannot determined when a person can die of cancer. I think Michael knew that this person was very ill, and he does have a good heart and helped him until the end. He did plan this long before June 25, he probably said to himself that when this person dies that's when he will do his escape, just a question of timing. You know Michael is a genius right guys?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: puremind on January 09, 2011, 03:05:54 AM
Michael is a genius but not God.
You can predict a patient has 6 months to live but you can't predit he'd die on 25 june just to fit in numerology.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 09, 2011, 03:07:28 AM
Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
Quote from: "bec"
No, I'm sorry SD, the pic does not show proper, by-the-book CPR technique. Only one set of fingers is visible. If the hands were placed on top of each other, two sets of fingers would be visible the right set under the left, or as per proper procedure, the fingers should be interlaced. and the heel of the top hand pressing onto the top of the other.
I see two arms in the picture or what appears to be 2 arms. Photoshopped to make it 2 arms maybe but it appears too thick to be just a single arm.

Try it with your own arms. It's awkward at best, painful almost. Now imagine doing heavy chest compressions continuously for 10-20 min like that.

I believe what you are pointing at to be a shadow.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: curls on January 09, 2011, 03:21:50 AM
I think the simplest and most obvious explanation for this ambulance photo is that it's a dummy of MJ with actors posing for the pic. It was also probably taken before 25th June because you couldn't be sure of getting the desired result if done 'live' on 25th, and more than one would have been taken, hence any slight differences.

That may not be the most exciting explanation, but it works for me!
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Grace on January 09, 2011, 04:39:22 AM
The technical data of the "old" photograph showed EXIF Data.
Those were giving the time of the take as 18 minutes before the 911 call was made.
Always under assumption that the camera date and time were not manipulated.
There are at least 4 versions of the picture now.
It's nice that the photoshop was so prominently visible now on the "new" picture with the "shift" of the turn light on the red car.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: For All Time on January 09, 2011, 05:31:12 AM
This is so interesting .The ambulance photo look photoshoped to me, they said is not real a long time ago, didn't they ? Whatever happened on that day I'm sure Michael didn't die.But I'm thinking if there was a real dead body on that day ?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Elsa on January 09, 2011, 05:58:13 AM
Quote from: "PeaceLoveHappiness"
Quote from: "Gema"
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.


Yes, but the paramedics testified that Murray insisted that Michael be taken to the hospital, and as the Doctor, his say would trump that of the paramedics.

Yes - and didn't Dr Murray go to the hospital with the paramedics in the ambulance and in control of the patient?   Where is he in the photo?  Good grief!  Why isn't he in there doing something Doctorly! The patients dying - sure maybe he only has one arm, no neck and bubbles on his nose, but give the kid a chance Doc.  Ya gotta help him Doc - please - I'm beggin ya - get off the phone and do something!

Quote from: "puremind"
Michael is a genius but not God.
You can predict a patient has 6 months to live but you can't predit he'd die on 25 june just to fit in numerology.

Your logic about predicting the death of a real patient to the day raises an interesting point.  Ian Halperin predicted the death of Michael Jackson with unbeLIEvabe accuracy - and Michael wasn't even sick.   Mmmmm but Halperin being God doesn't fit with my hoax theory.    :?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: reading_on on January 09, 2011, 06:55:53 AM
Quote from: "bec"
No, I'm sorry SD, the pic does not show proper, by-the-book CPR technique. Only one set of fingers is visible. If the hands were placed on top of each other, two sets of fingers would be visible the right set under the left, or as per proper procedure, the fingers should be interlaced. and the heel of the top hand pressing onto the top of the other.

Even if one were to try and argue that this is one individual's personal, confident professional technique, the angle of the EMTs left hand is so positioned, that in order to have it placed on top of his right with any kind of downward leverage gained at all, he would have to dislocate his shoulders or hyper extend his elbows to stack his hands in such a way as to have the fingers face opposite directions so that the bottom set does not show in the pic. Try it yourself and you will see what I mean.

The most likely explanation for the EMT to be in this position is that at the time the pic was taken, he has stopped compressions and is reaching for something with his right hand up high and to the rear of the cabin. I don't know what is positioned there that he might be reaching for or maybe he's just no longer acting since the ambulance is pulling away from the scene and there's no further need to put on any facade, maybe he's purposefully holding a one armed pose so that the guy in the side window can get a wacky shot that is consistent with reports of Murray's one armed CPR.

Because you have to admit, it's hella ironic to have the EMT in the ambulance pic appear to be doing the same one armed CPR that Murray was ridiculed for doing in the news, and is being accused of being negligent for doing so by the witnesses and indirectly by the prosecution in the prelim hearing this past week.
 

I agree with you on the EMT reaching somewhere else at the time. In fact I actually read that somewhere.

I gotta say this all seems pretty gruesome and ghoulish picking this picture apart again and now the accusations get even worse than when it was first being picked apart. If you do it for the sake of getting to the bottom of something, I will say again I wish there was a locked area for members with a blatant warning for people who come. In case, of course, he was dead you wouldn't want his kids seeing it, would you? I wouldn't. Sorry, don't mean to offend anyone with those statements, just looking at it like an outsider.

With my big bold statement there, I would still like you to "sell" me on the idea that the body has an arm missing. All I see is something in the way of the arm being photographed. Can you point out more than that?

Thanks
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: ~Souza~ on January 09, 2011, 07:03:01 AM
Quote from: "puremind"
Serenity, I know about Michael and his 7 's.
I am also haunted by 3's and 4's, all my life i've been.
Most of my important dates happened to occur on exactly those days or combinations.
And i guess this happens to all of you here with certain numbers or dates. He was also mystical i am sure he knew what 7 meant and he liked the energy of this number.
But that doesn't mean anything for the hoax. And i think i can have an opinion since in my past it was more or less a hobby. I also know for a fact , that in both, tarot and numerology, the answer may be given by our wishes. This is why someone else, who has no idea about that specific situation, must read those numbers or cards. In numerology is even more tricky because you can obtain any number from various combinations.
I am not sure if TS is an informer or a numerologist. If he is a numerologist and a believer he may be influenced by his beliefs (this is why i stopped doing readings for Michael). If he is an informer, then i don't know why using numerology for already known facts.
PS Bec, we don't know when the shot was taken, could be before CPR or after, or as Serenity well pointed maybe the angle is tricky. Here we can not be sure of anything in such way to try to convince someone else of what we see.

Well you can win $999 if you can debunk it, so I'd say: Give it a shot! Silencing the Critics, And $999 REwarD??? You bET (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=14058&p=234443#p234443)
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: new tiux on January 09, 2011, 07:12:23 AM
Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Paramedic is supposedly doing


ONE HANDED CPR  :?  :?  :?


and is facing to the back of the ambulance.
as I mentioned about year ago, it truly seems like both paramedics had turned their heads away to be sure their faces will not be photographed. It's all staged.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: puremind on January 09, 2011, 07:12:51 AM
Elsa, so if there was another person who died, the dr couldn't possibly  know the exact date of his death - 25 june.
i was not talking about psychics but doctors. if a psychic helped them then i still doubt they took his message  for a real fact because there is no time and space for real clairvoyants and they know that.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: LadyMedic on January 09, 2011, 09:22:33 AM
Quote from: "Gema"
Quote from: "momof3kids"
Quote from: "Gema"
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.

I don't know how things work in California, but here in North Dakota, this is not true.  My husbands grandma died in her home a couple of years ago, and was she taken to the hospital.  Her husband has alzheimers and didn't understand what was happening. She had passed many hours prior to him calling 911.  An ambulance came and got her and brought her to the hospital even though she was dead, and had been dead for quite while (the medics estimated about 4 hours).

But then a doctor would have proclaim her dead and then taken to the hospital.

No doctor proclaimed Michael dead at his home.
If they're doing CPR, he's dead. You don't do CPR on a person who is alive. And no, the patient does not need to be taken to the hospital in order for an MD to pronounce death. In some areas, the medics are allowed to do it on scene without calling an MD at all. The LAFD, however, does have to call an MD. But the patient does not need to be transported.

Quote from: "PeaceLoveHappiness"
Quote from: "Gema"
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.


Yes, but the paramedics testified that Murray insisted that Michael be taken to the hospital, and as the Doctor, his say would trump that of the paramedics.
^this

Quote from: "Cameron"
Quote from: "skyways"
Did we have CLEAR VIEW OF THE PATCH ON PARAMEDICS UNIFORM NOW ??
if everyone remember, that mystery also left unsolved...  previously =D

Wow, I was thinking about the logo on the uniform, but then I saw your comment, we had the same idea :)
So, is the logo the real logo of Los Angeles paramedics, or something ?
Yes, it is the real logo.

Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Paramedic is supposedly doing


ONE HANDED CPR  :?  :?  :?


and is facing to the back of the ambulance.
Back when I took photos of my ambulance through the window, I also had my boyfriend with me. Without him ever having seen the ambulance photo, I told him to act like the ambulance was moving and he was doing CPR with one hand. This is what he did:

(http://i55.tinypic.com/2kh9pf.jpg)

As you can tell by his uniform (I edited out any identifying features), he is also a paramedic, and has done one handed CPR in a moving ambulance. He is holding onto the grab bar on the roof so he doesn't fall over. And he has himself positioned over where the patient would be in order to do CPR.

Quote from: "Elsa"
Quote from: "PeaceLoveHappiness"
Quote from: "Gema"
Also, when a person dies outside a hospital, legal procedures start right the way. A dead person is not rushed in an ambulance.

Michael was alive if he was taken to the hospital in the ambulance.


Yes, but the paramedics testified that Murray insisted that Michael be taken to the hospital, and as the Doctor, his say would trump that of the paramedics.

Yes - and didn't Dr Murray go to the hospital with the paramedics in the ambulance and in control of the patient?   Where is he in the photo?  Good grief!  Why isn't he in there doing something Doctorly! The patients dying - sure maybe he only has one arm, no neck and bubbles on his nose, but give the kid a chance Doc.  Ya gotta help him Doc - please - I'm beggin ya - get off the phone and do something!
You wouldn't see him in the picture. He would be seated on the bench seat which is not visible from that angle.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 09, 2011, 11:16:03 AM
A post I made on another thread I also thought needed to be included in this discussion.

Warming the room would have zero effect on hiding the fact that someone had died hours or days earlier.

Zero.

No effect. We need to understand that forensic science is not that simple nor easily manipulated. There are many physical factors that are used to determine time of death, presence and progression of rigor, pressure and consistency of the fluid in the eyeballs, presence and location of digested food in the gut, and more... and the media is trying to make you believe that room temperature throws a wrench in the coroner's work. It doesn't and wouldn't.

As far as the testimony, the ambulance pic doesn't even come close to matching the description the EMTs have given. In any case, the EMTs have to be actors if the 911 call was fake, which is almost certainly the case. Real EMTs don't show up after you make a fake 911 call.

We need to move past these points, we are getting tripped up on easily debunked theories.

So the EMTs are lying on the stand. The pic is proof of that.

And we can't say oh well the ambulance ic is a fake.

If the ambulance pic is fake then Ben committed fraud. He SOLD that pic to ET for est. $500K. That's federal level fraud.

So ET hasn't filed fraud complaints against Ben. No one in 19 months on the forum has been able to prove that pic is fake. No One.

I have to then draw the conclusion that the pic is real. To support the pic being real:

      -It was sold to a major news media company. Proof it was sold: photographer's spoken videotaped statement and the photo appearing 6/26/09 on the cover of commercial magazines.

      -Upon inspection, no photoshop lines or irregularities are present.

      -The badges on the EMTs arms are the correct, current LAFD badge.

      -The equipment pictured in the back round of the ambulance interior is consistent with equipment inside ambulances at current, verified by currently employed paramedics.

      -The equipment being used on the "patient" is consistent with the situation, as verified by professionals currently employed in the field.

      -We have 3 separate video taped footages of the scene that day, from three different angles of the exact moment when the photographer takes these ambulance photos through the side window by pressing the camera against the glass. By using all 3 films, the entire sequence of events can be witnessed from start to finish.

      -The reflection visible in the photo is consistent with the scene on video.


To support the pic being fake:

      -Brian Oxman said he was "95% sure it was most likely photoshopped." This means he is speculating.

...and that's it really.


The most logical conclusion that can be reached when considering all of the information is MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ doesn't indicate that the photo is a fake, MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ in the pic only suggests that the MJ is a fake.

If rigor hadn't set in at all... the body hasn't been dead very long at all. And temp is FAR from the only way to approximate t.o.d. If you consider rigor starts with the eyelids and jaw and progressively spreads through the body, I have a very very hard time believing that a paramedic who checked pupil response and inserted the tracheal tube didn't notice rigor in the eyelids and jaw. By personal experience, I'm going to attest that rigor in the eyelids sets in FAST. Even if the EMTs simply went along with The Scenario to appease Murray, you are not going to be able to insert a trachael tube into a corpse very easily, if at all.

Lastly: If the eyes were open when EMTs arrived then they would still be open in the ambulance pic. You cannot close eyelids after death, that is a myth. Rigor prevents this and sets in within minutes in the eyelids.

So those are the facts of the situation.

The facts indicate that the EMTs are lying on the stand. So. Did they all just perjure themselves or can we all agree this is a hoax and the prelim hearing is staged?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 09, 2011, 11:22:52 AM
Reading the answers looks like Murray is a real Doctor then, a doc who can´t perform CPR..

So, what´s the resume of the story, was Michael dead or alive when he arrived to the hospital?

Something is not fitting here.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: mjssoulmate on January 09, 2011, 11:58:17 AM
The most logical conclusion that can be reached when considering all of the information is MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ doesn't indicate that the photo is a fake, MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ in the pic only suggests that the MJ is a fake.

I agree with you on that.  It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: g32 on January 09, 2011, 01:16:57 PM
ok guys i lost it.. I thought this picture was fake. And thats what i still think. There are threads explaining it..even in youtube..i cant be updated on wats happening on court cus im in another country...so id appreciate if you told me why do most of the ppl here think this pic isnt a fake now? And say now is a fake mj? Thank u s6o much in advance.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: Serenitys_Dream on January 09, 2011, 03:02:01 PM
On June 25, 2009 Ben Evanstad states that he captured video, through the fence at the Carolwood Dr. home, of Michael being loaded into the Ambulance.

[youtube:20d4bh0f]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=613h-A7RUFo[/youtube:20d4bh0f]

On Oprah, Katherine stated that Joe called her and told her that "someone left Michael's house in an ambulance and that they had the whole body covered up"

How would Joe know this and if someone present told him, why didn't they tell him it was Michael? he said "someone left Michael's house in an ambulance"

I made a video that included these things and more.

[youtube:20d4bh0f]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wVqH2ZiR2U[/youtube:20d4bh0f]

But here are some things that are in the above video and a couple more I have thought of.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/EMTLoad.png)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/ambulanceloadingGurney.png)

So the EMT's have ceased resuscitation efforts and are loading the body, completely covered by a sheet into the ambulance.

From a procedural manual for EMT's.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/terminationofCPR2.png)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/Whendeathisdetermined.png)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/jacks_516x350_100579a.jpg)

So why was the sheet removed and resuscitation efforts restarted once the gurney had been loaded? It is against procedures to stop CPR unless a patient is stable enough to move or has died. It is against procedure to remove a deceased individual from the scene and you cover a body when the individual is deceased.

Here is a close up shot of the "EMT" who is loading the gurney into the ambulance.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/EMTCloseup.png)

There are some things not right with this guy too...

Hair

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/Hair.png)

Department Library > Manual of Operation > Volume 2
.10 HAIR STANDARDS
A neat, clean and well-groomed appearance contributes to building pride essential to an effective Fire Department. A vital ingredient of the Department's effectiveness is the pride and self-discipline which each member brings to our service. It is the responsibility of each member to be properly groomed while on duty. Officers shall be accountable for the appearance of members under their direct supervision.

(this is in regards to men)
A. HAIR: There are many styles which are acceptable in the Department. As long as the style does not lessen the protection of required safety equipment or expose the member to added personal injury, the acceptability of the style will be judged by the following criteria:

While on duty or in uniform, the length and/or bulk of the hair shall not be excessive or present a ragged, unkempt or extreme appearance. Hair styling (outward flip, teased, afro, perm, block, or tapered), shall not cause hair to exceed in length or bulk the standards described in this section. Length of hair on back of the head shall not extend over the top of the collar of the dress uniform when standing with the head erect. Hair may cover part of the ear, but the lower one (1) inch of the ear (when measured from the bottom of the ear) must remain exposed. Hair bulk shall not exceed one and one-half(1 1/2) inches in depth, tapering at the sides and back to a maximum depth of one(1) inch at the top of the collar when in dress uniform and a maximum of one-fourth(1/4) of an inch beyond the outer edge of the ear. At no time shall the hair style interfere with the proper sealing of a face piece or the proper fit and appearance of approved headgear.
http://lafd.info/index.php?title=3/7_UNIFORMS#.10_HAIR_STANDARDS

This hair seems longer than these regulations but maybe I am incorrect.

Uniform
I have tried to research "Uniform Specifications" for the LA fire Department but I can not find any online. From all of the pictures I have looked at the uniform is as we see the EMT's wearing in the picture from inside the ambulance.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/jacks_516x350_100579a.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/Pancakebreakfast.jpg)
http://www.teamgoonphotos.com/Random-Happenings/Breakfast-at-Fire-Station-71/12547601_GDjsM/1/900256782_D33FF/Original

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f264/IndigoDreams0007/Shirtcolour.png)

Let me know what you think of this?  :D
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: ~Souza~ on January 09, 2011, 03:56:19 PM
Quote from: "Gema"
Reading the answers looks like Murray is a real Doctor then, a doc who can´t perform CPR..
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Every doctor knows how to perform CPR. I am not a doctor AT ALL and even I know how to perform CPR. So if Murray doesn't know how to perform CPR, he's not a ardiologist, not a doctor, not even a nurse or someone with a first aid diploma, period.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: curls on January 09, 2011, 04:33:14 PM
Quote from: "bec"

If the ambulance pic is fake then Ben committed fraud. He SOLD that pic to ET for est. $500K. That's federal level fraud.


Surely that would depend on what he claimed about the pic when he sold it and also if any money actually changed hands?  We don't KNOW any of these things - we know nothing!  Incidentally, I love the way your mind is working these days Bec - stripping things back to the bare bones.

I'm having trouble too getting my head round the legalities of much of this hoax - just who would MJ need to have on his side to avoid legal problems later for himself and others? Is there someone trustworthy, in high office, he could've asked: 'I'm planning a big reality type production, which many of the players won't know they're involved in, they'll think it's real. Can you assure me that I, and those that do know, won't have legal problems later?'
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: ~Souza~ on January 09, 2011, 04:45:23 PM
"It was a firm bed" so I assume the EMT had a "firm arm" :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Jackson Doctor's CPR Technique Explained (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/29/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-doctor/)
Originally posted Jun 29th 2009 6:27 AM PDT by TMZ Staff

Now we know why Dr. Conrad Murray administered CPR on Michael Jackson's bed, even though it's routinely performed on a hard surface -- it was a "firm bed."

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/06/29/0629_murray_abc_video-1.jpg) (http://www.tmz.com/videos?autoplay=true%20...%207c3847e566)

Murray's lawyer, Edward Chernoff, was on "GMA" this morning defending his client's actions after finding Michael unconscious in his bedroom.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: neversaynever on January 09, 2011, 05:39:14 PM
Were these the EMT's that testified?  Can anyone match them up? Anyone present at the prelim that could tell? That would certainly be the key to some of this. Who are these guys and are they the ones that testified?
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: neversaynever on January 09, 2011, 05:44:10 PM
MJ looking like mid-1980's MJ in the pic only suggests that the MJ is a fake.

Correct!  Who the hell has time to put a wig  and eyeliner on the patient. The face is perfect and the hair looks mighty placed to me. The "person" in that ambulance sure does not look like he was worked on , thrown on the floor, etc.... And he certainly does NOT look like the hospice patient they all testified they saw.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: mjisthemuses on January 09, 2011, 06:19:21 PM
Hi, It's been long time i didn't post here.
I just suddenly think, maybe this could answer the oxygen bottles there. Maybe, there was a terminal ill guy, and brain dead, so he lived with life support until June 25th with the oxygen etc in that house. It explain why Murray been there daily, just to take care of this person until June 25...
On June 25th, he just need to cut the life support in the morning...
While I think Michael has gone to the airport. Then If am not wrong, they were 2 ambulances there, one went out from back door, maybe its the real guy who has died and the one that went out from the front door was the fake one/dummy?

Or if there was just 1 ambulance, the body that covered up by white sheet was that the dead person, and the picture is not related with this scene. The picture is staged, specially made. So NO picture from inside the ambulance from that day...

And answering Bec, about ZOOM OUT, i think i red it somewhere...I think is from TS?? Sorry if am wrong, cos i read so many zoom out lately, I use zoom out and zoom in everyday doing my design things :)
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 09, 2011, 07:40:50 PM
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"

If the ambulance pic is fake then Ben committed fraud. He SOLD that pic to ET for est. $500K. That's federal level fraud.


Surely that would depend on what he claimed about the pic when he sold it and also if any money actually changed hands?  We don't KNOW any of these things - we know nothing!  Incidentally, I love the way your mind is working these days Bec - stripping things back to the bare bones.

I'm having trouble too getting my head round the legalities of much of this hoax - just who would MJ need to have on his side to avoid legal problems later for himself and others? Is there someone trustworthy, in high office, he could've asked: 'I'm planning a big reality type production, which many of the players won't know they're involved in, they'll think it's real. Can you assure me that I, and those that do know, won't have legal problems later?'

Bold: Indeed, you're right, we don't know. I am deducing this since we have a photographer taking credit for the shot, and we have the shot showing up on a commercially For Sale on-the-rack magazine billed as "the final photo of Michael Jackson". If that pic ever turns out to be a proven fake, ie. a photoshopped/compiled/altered image, every media company that ever ran it effectively committed fraud when they sold a copy (whole magazine) of it to someone. And if it is fake, it will eventually be proven. It has not been to-date. If it is proven fake someday, all those someone's who bought a magazine that ran a copy of it could file a class action suit of consumer fraud against that media company that publishes the magazine. It would be financially devistating and would surely cause the media company suffering from the expose to seek retribution from the source that defrauded them, ie. sold them the shot.

So Ben may have "given" it away, and never accepted any money for it, sure, it's possible. You're right, of that transaction we have zero proof. But we do know for a fact that millions of copies of this pic were sold, for $3.99 a pop, to millions of consumers. That still constitutes fraud. It's consumer fraud and there's much precedent for this in the courts and on the books.

It just starts to get 100% more complicated legally then it has to be IF this pic is shopped. That doesn't make any sense when you could easily just stage this shot with a mannequin and save everyone a bunch of legal trouble. There seems little benefit to be had by shopping 3 or 4 nearly identical copies of it, none with any shop lines or markers, when you could so easily stage it.

And considering how crucial legality is, it seems a foolish risk to circulate a shopped photo the way this one has been circulated. A staged photo is legal to sell so long as Ben didn't make any statements about WHO or WHAT was in the pic. It's a REAL photo, and Ben doesn't HAVE to make any statements in the course of this type of transaction. Michael Jackson is *the* most recognized face globally.

Underlined: Just money, lots of it, and good lawyers. In America, that's really all MJ needs to pull this off. He has both I'd be comfortable assuming.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: LadyMedic on January 09, 2011, 10:22:31 PM
Quote from: "Serenitys_Dream"
So why was the sheet removed and resuscitation efforts restarted once the gurney had been loaded? It is against procedures to stop CPR unless a patient is stable enough to move or has died. It is against procedure to remove a deceased individual from the scene and you cover a body when the individual is deceased.
Don't mean to sound rude, but do you understand how physically demanding CPR is? You cannot give good compressions, or even any, while loading a patient into and usually out of an ambulance. Not to mention someone is manually supporting the weight of the stretcher, so you don't push down onto it or it's not going to go into the ambulance and you'll break the guys back. I've occasionally done some half-assed compressions just because, but it does nothing if you can't put your body weight into it. And you can't do that while loading or unloading. Trust me. I've played that game MANY times.
And at this point, the patient isn't even viable. That long into a unwitnessed, asystolic arrest, (please take this next phrase lightly, not entirely literal) CPR does nothing. The patient isn't coming back.

Quote from: "~Souza~"
"It was a firm bed" so I assume the EMT had a "firm arm" :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Jackson Doctor's CPR Technique Explained (http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/29/michael-jackson-conrad-murray-doctor/)
Originally posted Jun 29th 2009 6:27 AM PDT by TMZ Staff

Now we know why Dr. Conrad Murray administered CPR on Michael Jackson's bed, even though it's routinely performed on a hard surface -- it was a "firm bed."

(http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/06/29/0629_murray_abc_video-1.jpg) (http://www.tmz.com/videos?autoplay=true%20...%207c3847e566)

Murray's lawyer, Edward Chernoff, was on "GMA" this morning defending his client's actions after finding Michael unconscious in his bedroom.
I don't believe it. No bed is firm enough for legit compressions. MAYBE one of those memory foam beds, but definitely not a spring bed.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: hope on January 09, 2011, 10:50:04 PM
I think what Serenitys_Dream means is...(Correct me if Im wrong Serenitys_dream).....why would they stop CPR, cover the patient (supposedly already deceased), take the time to load him, then uncover him and start CPR again. Not to mention, the paramedic is giving one handed CPR again and looking towards the back of the ambulance.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: curls on January 10, 2011, 03:32:04 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"

If the ambulance pic is fake then Ben committed fraud. He SOLD that pic to ET for est. $500K. That's federal level fraud.


Surely that would depend on what he claimed about the pic when he sold it and also if any money actually changed hands?  We don't KNOW any of these things - we know nothing!  Incidentally, I love the way your mind is working these days Bec - stripping things back to the bare bones.

I'm having trouble too getting my head round the legalities of much of this hoax - just who would MJ need to have on his side to avoid legal problems later for himself and others? Is there someone trustworthy, in high office, he could've asked: 'I'm planning a big reality type production, which many of the players won't know they're involved in, they'll think it's real. Can you assure me that I, and those that do know, won't have legal problems later?'

Bold: Indeed, you're right, we don't know. I am deducing this since we have a photographer taking credit for the shot, and we have the shot showing up on a commercially For Sale on-the-rack magazine billed as "the final photo of Michael Jackson". If that pic ever turns out to be a proven fake, ie. a photoshopped/compiled/altered image, every media company that ever ran it effectively committed fraud when they sold a copy (whole magazine) of it to someone. And if it is fake, it will eventually be proven. It has not been to-date. If it is proven fake someday, all those someone's who bought a magazine that ran a copy of it could file a class action suit of consumer fraud against that media company that publishes the magazine. It would be financially devistating and would surely cause the media company suffering from the expose to seek retribution from the source that defrauded them, ie. sold them the shot.

So Ben may have "given" it away, and never accepted any money for it, sure, it's possible. You're right, of that transaction we have zero proof. But we do know for a fact that millions of copies of this pic were sold, for $3.99 a pop, to millions of consumers. That still constitutes fraud. It's consumer fraud and there's much precedent for this in the courts and on the books.

It just starts to get 100% more complicated legally then it has to be IF this pic is shopped. That doesn't make any sense when you could easily just stage this shot with a mannequin and save everyone a bunch of legal trouble. There seems little benefit to be had by shopping 3 or 4 nearly identical copies of it, none with any shop lines or markers, when you could so easily stage it.

And considering how crucial legality is, it seems a foolish risk to circulate a shopped photo the way this one has been circulated. A staged photo is legal to sell so long as Ben didn't make any statements about WHO or WHAT was in the pic. It's a REAL photo, and Ben doesn't HAVE to make any statements in the course of this type of transaction. Michael Jackson is *the* most recognized face globally.

Underlined: Just money, lots of it, and good lawyers. In America, that's really all MJ needs to pull this off. He has both I'd be comfortable assuming.

Thanks for your well thought out comments Bec. Regarding what I've put in red: would that scenario mean that whoever bought, or was given the photo, and then published it, is the one in legal trouble for not checking the authenticity of what they were presenting as MJ's last pic?  Sounds familiar eh, not checking, just running with any tittilating garbage that comes their way. Case proven once again.

Also, I hope you're right with what I put in blue, it sounds too simple!
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MJonmind on January 10, 2011, 05:50:58 AM
Just wondering if anyone discussed the 1985 ambulance pic. I found this on another video.
[attachment=0:uwgkd1ao]MJ 85, 09.jpg[/attachment:uwgkd1ao]
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: reading_on on January 10, 2011, 06:22:33 AM
bec.. I am not 100% sure but I think the media are protected in case a picture turns up being faked. I mean, I don't think consumers can sue mass media for something they purchased in good faith.

  I have always said that I could prove the photo was faked and this far in the photo does not matter.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: mjaliveomg on January 10, 2011, 07:55:17 AM
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Just wondering if anyone discussed the 1985 ambulance pic. I found this on another video.
[attachment=0:xbf8qeww]MJ 85, 09.jpg[/attachment:xbf8qeww]

hehe "This is it"  :lol:
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: LadyMedic on January 10, 2011, 08:07:37 AM
Quote from: "hope"
I think what Serenitys_Dream means is...(Correct me if Im wrong Serenitys_dream).....why would they stop CPR, cover the patient (supposedly already deceased), take the time to load him, then uncover him and start CPR again. Not to mention, the paramedic is giving one handed CPR again and looking towards the back of the ambulance.
As a courtesy. If you have the opportunity to not let everyone see your patient naked or half naked, you try to take it. I don't blame them at all with all of the cameras around. Could you imagine if the video was able to capture a naked patient on the stretcher? That would have been terrible. I'm just saying regardless of who the patient is, this is totally not unusual.

Quote from: "MJonmind"
Just wondering if anyone discussed the 1985 ambulance pic. I found this on another video.
[attachment=0:2akq47i4]MJ 85, 09.jpg[/attachment:2akq47i4]
That's fake. It's not from 1985. Michael wasn't even in the hospital in 1985, let alone intubated in an ambulance.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 10, 2011, 12:50:50 PM
Quote from: "reading_on"
bec.. I am not 100% sure but I think the media are protected in case a picture turns up being faked. I mean, I don't think consumers can sue mass media for something they purchased in good faith.

  I have always said that I could prove the photo was faked and this far in the photo does not matter.

Then please prove it.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MJonmind on January 10, 2011, 02:36:21 PM
Finally got time to read everything. SD and Bec, your posts are so informative and I agree with you for the most part. And I've certainly always had good feelings when I see that ponytailed "medic". A dummy makes the most sense for that photo scene, although a real body would help work for the bedroom and Murray, trip to the hospital in "other" ambulance with white-sheeted "body", and the autopsy. On the other hand somehow I don't think a real body is necessary with any of it at all, particularly if key people in every stage are in on the hoax. It could increase the legal problems after BAM, ethical issues fans and public, and emotional issues for those involved particularly the children. However it does seem like TS supports the use of dummies and real dead bodies for different occasions in the hoax.

LadyMedic, I can see that the guy doing the one-armed CPR very well could be reaching with the other arm to a support on the ceiling to stablize him for ambulance movement, although when BE took the pic the vehicle wasn't moving yet.

About the numerology in the hoax, this is an established fact in 18 months of study, the foundation of TS and Elvis studies, and IMO a tarot reading is only one of many possible sources of info for understanding what is going on.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: bec on January 10, 2011, 02:41:19 PM
Quote from: "MJonmind"
Finally got time to read everything. SD and Bec, your posts are so informative and I agree with you for the most part. And I've certainly always had good feelings when I see that ponytailed "medic". A dummy makes the most sense for that photo scene, although a real body would help work for the bedroom and Murray, trip to the hospital in "other" ambulance with white-sheeted "body", and the autopsy. On the other hand somehow I don't think a real body is necessary with any of it at all, particularly if key people in every stage are in on the hoax. It could increase the legal problems after BAM, ethical issues fans and public, and emotional issues for those involved particularly the children.

LadyMedic, I can see that the guy doing the one-armed CPR very well could be reaching with the other arm to a support on the ceiling to stablize him for ambulance movement, although when BE took the pic the vehicle wasn't moving yet.

Sorry about my insert pic, and yes it would have been January 27, 1984, so I agree it sounds like that pic is fake.

Agree. In my opinion, the presence of a real body compounds difficulty in a way that seems to provide no benefit over the use of a mannequin, especially considering the culture in the US regarding death and dying.
Title: Re: New Version Ambulance Pic on the net, ZOOM OUT
Post by: MissG on January 11, 2011, 12:35:16 PM
Quote from: "LadyMedic"
I don't believe it. No bed is firm enough for legit compressions. MAYBE one of those memory foam beds, but definitely not a spring bed.

A foam bed would also be not efficient, even having the patients arm underneeth his own back as a support, the commpresions would not be 100% effective. A hard surface is needed, hard as the floor.
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