Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators
Latest News => TIAI => The Plan (Qanon, TIAI, BACK) => TIAI & TS Discussions => Topic started by: ~Souza~ on November 28, 2010, 04:58:01 PM
-
Because there are many threads now about TS I decided to give this its own, so I don't have to repeat myself.
I see some people trying to debunk TS on assumption and speculation and I don't see many good arguments or calculations. Because people claimed before that I followed TS blindly, I took his challenge a while ago to see what the chance was that all the numerology is just a coincidence, let me repost my calculations right here:
Because some people accuse me of blindly following TS without questioning, I decided to take the challenge and calculate the chance of coincidence. I can see the chance is astronomical small without having to calculate, but maybe others are not that good with math, so here it's all calculated so you can see why I am certain it's not all coincidence. The person that gets this chance under 1 in a million, will receive an additional $999 from me. I wish you good luck! :lol:
$999 Reward!!!
On the one year anniversary of 9-9-09, this is a very fitting time to offer this $999 reward. The reward will go to the first person who can show mathematically and statistically, that there is one chance in any number less than a million (1 chance in 999,999 or 1 chance in 500,000, etc), that all the MJ numerology listed in step 3 below happened by chance.
Anyone can accept this offer, but they must do each of the following 5 steps.
Step 1: Carefully read each of the following three times: all of this post, and TIAI Updates #4b, #4c, #5a, #5d, #6 (especially #6-8 & #6-9).
Step 2: Start a post (in the TIAI subforum) titled: “$999 Claim, By John Doe [don’t use this name, use your own username]”. Include in your post steps 3 and 4, below; also, any discussion regarding step 5 should be done in this same thread.
Step 3: Show your calculations for each separate numerology (a. to l.) happening by chance {for an example, see the 12:21 phone call time, viewtopic.php?f=72&t=9994 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=9994)}.
Be sure to include:
a. The 911 call was in the first few seconds of 12:21
b. 12:21 to 2:26 is 2 hours and 5 minutes on June 25; 2 + 5 = 7
c. 1,221 + 226 = 1447; 1 + 4 + 4 + 7 = 16; 1 + 6 = 7
d. Memorial 7th day of 7th month, 7 years after will (and full moon)
e. 77 days from “death” to 9-9-09
f. 7 days from “burial” to 9-9-09 (and almost full moon)
g. THIS IS IT vowels = 999
h. HIS (HIStory and THIS IS IT) backwards = 1998
i. 1998 autograph; 1998 - 666 = 1332 / 4 = 333 + 666 = 999
j. 777 + 999 = 1776
k. All of these numbers (333, 666, 777, 999, 1221, 1776, 1998) are divisible by 111
l. 8 + 16 + 1977 = 2001; 6 + 25 + 2009 = 2040 (space intros for Elvis and MJ)
Step 4: Show your calculations for the combination of all these numerologies happening by chance. Your answer here at step 4 must be 1 chance in 999,999 or less (because one chance in a million or more does not qualify for the reward).
Step 5: Allow me to question/challenge your calculations.
If you can defend your calculations and statistics by answering my questions/challenges: then PM your mailing address to me, and I will send you $999 (U.S. dollars) via Western Union!
a. The 911 call was in the first few seconds of 12:21
At this time we didn't hear anything yet, the 911 call started the hoax. If he planned on doing the hoax on June 25 and the time is just a coincidence, we must keep in mind the following:
June 25 had 24 hours. 24 hours are 1,440 minutes which equals 86,400 seconds. The chance the 911 call was placed at exactly 12:21:04 is therefore 1 in 86,400. But the seconds are not planned, which leaves us to 1 chance in 1,440. But we need to devide that in 2, because the clock will show us 12:21 (which is the 'coincidence' here) twice every day. so we write down for our final calculation: 1/720. Let's go on...
b. 12:21 to 2:26 is 2 hours and 5 minutes on June 25; 2 + 5 = 7
Still keeping in mind that he planned his death on June 25, there are 11 hours and 39 minutes left, which equals 699 minutes. That means that it is a chance of 1 in 699. 2:26 is chosen iMO because February 26 was the date that Thriller became #1, but let's forget about that. He also could have chosen 0 hours and 7 minutes, 1 hour and 6 minutes, 3 hours and 4 minutes, 4 hours and 3 minutes 5 hours and 2 minutes, 6 hours and 1 minute and 7 hours and 0 minutes. In that case I am not taking into account the likeliness of dying withing a certain amount of time after you had a cardiac arrest. That means that after 12:21 there were 8 times of death that would reduce to 7. So the chance that the hour and minute would make 7 is 8/699.
c. 1,221 + 226 = 1447; 1 + 4 + 4 + 7 = 16; 1 + 6 = 7
This one is quite simple, the chance that a 4 digit number reduces to 7 is 1 in 9 (it can never reduce to 0). But here we have the 2:26 back. Let's see what happens if we use the other 7 possible times of death and add them to 1,221, to make sure my calculation above (point b) is correct and that 2:26 as a number should not make a difference, or that I need to change 8/699.
1,221 + 1,228 (12:28 is 0 hours and 7 minutes after 12:21) = 2,449. 2+4+4+9=19, 1+9=10, 1+0=1
1,221 + 127 (1:27 is 1 hour and 6 minutes after 12:21) = 1,348. 1+3+4+8=16, 1+6=7
1,221 + 325 (3:25 is 3 hours and 4 minutes after 12:21) = 1,546. 1+5+4+6=16, 1+6=7
1,221 + 424 (4:24 is 4 hours and 3 minutes after 12:21) = 1,645. 1+6+4+5=16, 1+6=7
1,221 + 523 (5:23 is 5 hours and 2 minutes after 12:21) = 1,744. 1+7+4+4=16, 1+6=7
1,221 + 622 (6:22 is 6 hours and 1 minutes after 12:21) = 1,843. 1+8+4+3=16, 1+6=7
1,221 + 721 (7:21 is 7 hours and 0 minutes after 12:21) = 1,942. 1+9+4+2=16, 1+6=7
So conclusion is that besides 2:26, 6 other times would make 77. All besides 7 minutes after 12:21. That does mean my former calculation under point b needs to be changed to 7/699.
d. Memorial 7th day of 7th month, 7 years after will (and full moon)
The chance that this is 777 is as follows:
chance that it is the 7th day: 1/31 (July has 31 days)
Chance that it is the 7th month: 1/12 (a year has 12 months)
chance that it is 7 years after 2002 will is impossible to calculate, because there are endless years after 2002. But to calculate with something, let's reduce the number of years to 7, which makes it more likely to be 7 years. Of course we all know that's not true, but I don't want to calculate with big numbers so people can say later that I cheated. So 1/7.
Chance that it is a full moon: 1/27 (It takes roughly 27 days for the moon to travel around the earth)
Chance that this is all happening at once: 1/31 x 1/12 x 1/7 x 1/27 = 1/70,308
e. 77 days from “death” to 9-9-09
Again, there are endless days before 9/9, but let's focus on the year he chose to 'die': 2009. September 9 is the 252nd day of the year, that means that there are 251 other days before 9/9 in 2009. The chance that the day of death is 77 to 9/9 is therefore 1/251. Because we can calculate with inclusive reckoning, we should again divide this by 2, because June 24 would be 77 days from 9/9 as well, without inclusive reckoning. So we note for our calculation a chance of 2/251
f. 7 days from “burial” to 9-9-09 (and almost full moon)
Between 'death' and 9-9-09 are 75 possible burial dates (77 days -/- June 25 itself and -/- 9/9 itself) So the chance that the burial is 7 days to 9-9-09 is 1/75. But not really, because again we should take inclusive reckoning into account, which makes the chance 2/75.
g. THIS IS IT vowels = 999
There are 3 vowels in This Is It, all the exsisting vowels in the alfabet are a, e, i, o, u & y, so 6 in total. The chance that all 3 vowels in This Is Is are one and the same (i) is therefore 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 = 1/216. In this scenario I am not looking at all at sentences that are possible, or combinations of letters to make a sentence, because my math doesn't reach that far and the chance would only become smaller. So in this case the chance that all 3 vowels in a sentence with 3 vowels in total are one and the same is 1/216.
h. HIS (HIStory and THIS IS IT) backwards = 1998
Mike chose himself to have an album/tour name like this, with 3 letters in CAPS. Again this is impossible form me to calculate because my brain is frying already, but let's say he could have chosen any 3 letters in caps in any kind of title and that this is just a coincidence.
Let's see first which combinations would make 1998:
HIS (backwards) 8-9-19
SIH 19-9-8
HIIA (backwards) 8-9-9-1
AIIH 1-9-9-8
4 different combinations are possible, although as you can see only one makes sense but I am only looking at chances here and not if words make sense, but to make the chance as likely as possible, let's calculate with the 3-letter-words.
The chance he choses 3 letters (consonant - vowel - consonant) that makes 1998 either forward or backwards:
First letter is a consonant and makes 19 or 8: 2/20 (20 consonants in total, only the H and S qualify)
Second letter is a vowel and makes 9: 1/6 (6 vowels in total, only the I makes 9)
First letter is a consonant and makes 19 or 8: 2/20 (20 consonants in total, only the H and S qualify)
So the chance that those 3 letters combined make 1998 is 2/20 x 1/6 x 2/20 = 4/2400 which reduces to 1/600.
i. 1998 autograph; 1998 - 666 = 1332 / 4 = 333 + 666 = 999
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Update%204/Update%204b/1998Dangerous.jpg)
The chance that a 4-digit number makes 999 when you calculate with this formula is 1/10,000 (0000-9,999) because 1998 is the only one that makes 999 with this formula. Try it with every 4-digit number yourself. But because people might object and say that 0000 is simply nothing and 0009 and 0999 for example would reduce to 9 and 999 and is not really a 4-digit number, let's say the chance is 1/9,000 (1,000-9,999).
j. 777 + 999 = 1776
The chance that 777 + 999 makes 1,776 is simply 1, but that's not the point. In the hoax we are constantly reminded or 3-digit numbers like 111, 333 etc. and both 777 and 999 used repeatedly in relation to TII. But let's see what the chances are that 2 3-digit numbers (3 the same numbers) makes 1,776. The only possibility is 888+888 (reminds me of Elvis...)
All the other 3-digit numbers with 3 the same numbers are: 111, 222, 333, 444, 555 and 666. This means that there are 81 different combinations possible (9x9). Only 3 combinations make 1776 (777+999, 888+888 & 999+777). So the chance that a combination would make 1776 is 3/81.
k. All of these numbers (333, 666, 777, 999, 1221, 1776, 1998) are divisible by 111
The duration time of the movie is 111 minutes, the other numbers are constantly repeating throughout the hoax. Let's say (to make the chance as likely as possible again) that 1,998 is the last number, that there are no other numbers after 1,998. What are the chances that the 7 numbers most dominant in the hoax are all divisible by 111? That would be 1,998 to the power 7 = Approx. 1/127,106,684,000,000,000,000,000 (I might have missed one or two 0's...)
l. 8 + 16 + 1977 = 2001; 6 + 25 + 2009 = 2040 (space intros for Elvis and MJ)
This is a hard one. I will have to calculate myself because I seriously can't remember the formula for this. Let's start with Elvis. What is the chance that Elvis would 'die' on a date that equals his reference to 2001 during his last concerts? For that I have checked the statistics for the avarage average life expectancy for men.
"In the U.S., average life expectancy at birth is about 79 years for women and about 72 years for men." http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/199 ... veLon.html (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/10.01/WhyWomenLiveLon.html)
So according to this Elvis had a life expectancy of 72 years from 1/8/1935 on. There are 26,663 days in between his birth date (1/8/1935) and his expected day of death (1/8/2008) http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duratio ... =1&y2=2008 (http://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?d1=08&m1=1&y1=1935&d2=8&m2=1&y2=2008). But the chance his death date would reduce to 2001 with this formula (month+date+year) is not 1/26,663, because there are more dates that make 2001. We also need to reduce the amount of days, because he was clearly not dead yet when he sang it. Let's see how many days are in between June 26, 1977 (date of his last concert) and his expected death date (1/8/2008). There are 11,153 days in between. http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duratio ... =1&y2=2008 (http://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?d1=26&m1=06&y1=1977&d2=8&m2=1&y2=2008)
So we already reduced it to 1/11,153. But all dates after 1/1/1999 won't work, because this is the last date that makes 2001, all other dates will be higher. So we can reduce it to 1/7,859 http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duratio ... =1&y2=1999 (http://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?d1=26&m1=6&y1=1977&d2=1&m2=1&y2=1999)
Here is where my math education is failing me, because I can't remember how I can find out in a quick formula to see what other dates would make 2001, so I need to do it like this, starting at June 26, 1977:
1977
2001 - 1977 = 24. Dates that make 24 after June 26, 1977 are 7/17, 8/16, 9/15, 10/14, 11/13 and 12/12. So 1977 had 6 dates that reduced to 2001.
1978
2001 - 1978 = 23. Dates that make 23 in 1978 are 1/22, 2/21, 3/20, 4/19, 5/18, 6/17, 7/16, 8/15, 9/14, 10/13, 11/12 and 12/11. So 1978 had 12 dates that reduced to 2001. This will keep this way from 1979 to 1988, because 2001 -/- one of those dates makes 13 (2001-1988) or more, which means all months have a possible date, with 12/1/1988 being the last date in December. After that each year will loose a date, for example 2001-1989=12, so 12/1 is not possible anymore, and 2001-1990=11, which means in that year both November and December have no possible date. So that means:
1979: 12 dates
1980: 12 dates
1981: 12 dates
1982: 12 dates
1983: 12 dates
1984: 12 dates
1985: 12 dates
1986: 12 dates
1987: 12 dates
1988: 12 dates
1989: 11 dates
1990: 10 dates
1991: 9 dates
1992: 8 dates
1993: 7 dates
1994: 6 dates
1995: 5 dates
1996: 4 dates
1997: 3 dates
1998: 2 dates
1999: 1 date
That means that in total there were 204 dates between June 26, 1977 and January 1, 1999. So that means that the chance that Elvis would coincidentally die on a date that would make 2001 with the formula that is used, is 204/7,859
Same calculation for Mike, with October 15, 1997 being the starting date (last HIStory gig) and August 29, 2040 being the end date (expected death).
1997
2040 - 1997 = 43. Dates that make 43 after October 15, 1997? Just one: 12/31.
1998
2040 - 1998 = 42. Dates that make 42 in 1998 is only 12/30, because 11/31 doesn't exsist.
1999
2040 - 1999 = 41. Dates that make 41 in 1999 are 12/29 and 11/30, 2 Dates
2000
2040 - 2000 = 40. Dates: 12/28, 11/29 & 10/30. 3 Dates
2001
2040 - 2001 = 39. Dates: 12/27, 11/28, 10/29 & 9/30. 4 Dates
2002
2040 - 2002 = 38. Dates: 12/26, 11/27, 10/28, 9/29, 8/30. 5 Dates
Every year a date will be added. In 2008 Februari should be added, but since Februari only had 29 days in 2008, and 2040-2008=32, February doesn't have a possible date in 2008, but January is added (1/31).
2003: 6 Dates
2004: 7 Dates
2005: 8 Dates
2006: 9 Dates
2007; 10 Dates
2008: 11 Dates
2009: 11 Dates (2040 - 2009 = 31 and because 2009 was not a leap year, there was no 2/29, so again no possible date in February)
2010: 12 Dates
Then each year will have again 12 possible dates, until 2027. So after 2010 there are 27 x 12 = 324 more possible dates.
2040 - 2028 = 12, so from this year on we will loose a date each year, because 12/0 does not exsist.
2028: 11 Dates
2029: 10 Dates
2030: 9 Dates
2031: 8 Dates
2032: 7 Dates
2033: 6 Dates
2034: 5 Dates
2035: 4 Dates
2036: 3 Dates
2037: 2 Dates
2038 1 Date (1/1/2038 as last possible date)
That means that in total there are 480 possible dates between October 15, 1997 and January 1, 2038. In total there are 14,688 days between those 2 dates http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duratio ... =1&y2=2038 (http://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?d1=15&m1=10&y1=1997&d2=1&m2=1&y2=2038), so the chance that Mike would coincidentially die on a date that would make 2040 is 480/14,688
This means that the chance that both Elvis & MJ would die on a date that made the year referred to on their concert intro, would be 204/7,859 x 480/14,688 = 97,920/115,432,992
Conclusion: I did not win the $999, because the chance that all the above were merely coincidences, is astronomical little:
Chance of a: 1/720
Chance of b: 7/699
Chance of c: 1/10
Chance of d: 1/70308
Chance of e: 2/251
Chance of f: 2/75
Chance of g: 1/216
Chance of h: 1/600
Chance of i: 1/9000
Chance of j: 1/81
Chance of k: 1/127106684000000000000000 (forget about this one for a second)
Chance of l: 97920/115432992
1/720 x 7/699 x 1/9 x 1/70308 x 2/251 x 2/75 x 1/216 x 1/600 x 1/9000 x 3/81 x 97920/115432992 =
8225280/65381426700000000000000000000000000 or in other words a chance of
0,000000000000000000000000000125804535% (http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=822 ... =&gs_rfai= (http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=8225280/65381426700000000000000000000000000&btnG=Zoeken&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=))
IF we also take point k into account, the chance would be even smaller:
8225280/65381426700000000000000000000000000 x 1/127106684000000000000000 =
8225280/8310416340000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
So actually the chance that all the above was just a coincidence is
0,00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000989755466%
That's 1 in a gaziliabilionzilliontrillion.
I know I didn't calculate parts the exact way it should, but as you can see I always tried to make the possibility as likely as possible.
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=14067&p=234983& (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=14067&p=234983&)
Maybe one of the debunkers can do the same and prove my calculations wrong or come up with a well argumented explanation for this? To me this is proof that it's not all coincidence.
To those that say that the numerology is BS and not planned by Mike but by the ones that killed him or tried to kill him, please explain why he used the numbers throughout the years himself:
(http://www.bibleetnombres.online.fr/images42/Michael_Jackson_History_777s.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5S5GJ1Hfc-M/TJegeNr1KXI/AAAAAAAAAGo/qyASZxLIsxg/s400/72723030.jpg)
(http://clickzoombytes.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/mj-777-banderola.jpg)
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy245/PhotoPlusSerif/Update%204/Update%204b/1998Dangerous.jpg)
(http://extrememichaeljackson.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/michael-jackson-white-suit.jpg)
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001082787/MJ-logo-17767396540_xlarge.png)
(http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forumpics/dangerousnumbers.jpg)
The albums Dangerous, HIStory disc 2 (new releases) and Invincible all three have a duration of approx. 77 minutes.
9 statues were built to promote HIStory: Past, Present & Future, Book 1.
(http://www.pophistorydig.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/jackson-float-uk-1-310.jpg)
So was Mike stupid and did he tell those who were after his life about the importance of the numbers? I don't think so, I think he is way to smart for that.
TS is linked to Sony? I have no doubt in my mind he is, because Mike is linked to Sony. After his 2002 London speech, you would think he would not release more albums with Sony, besides the one he still owed them, but he did.
Sony kicked Motolla out in 2003 while Mottola did a lot for the company:
During his tenure, he transformed Sony into one of the most successful global music companies, expanding its businesses into over 60 countries, while creating one of the strongest management teams in the industry. He revitalized Sony Music's publishing division by making such acquisitions as the Beatles catalogue and enabled Sony to become the first major music company to make available commercial digital downloads. He is widely well-known for signing, developing, and nurturing the careers of Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Destiny's Child, Jennifer Lopez, Shakira, Gloria Estefan, the Dixie Chicks, Marc Anthony, Barbra Streisand, Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, among others. He also worked with Michael Jackson briefly while he recorded his Invincible (2001) album. He later stated he did not like working with Tommy and that he was a racist and devil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Mottola#Sony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Mottola#Sony)
So it seems that Sony choose MJ over Mottola.
In March 2006, the main house at the Neverland Ranch was closed as a cost-cutting measure. There were numerous reports around that time that Jackson was having financial problems. Jackson had been deliquent on his repayments of a $270 million loan secured against his music publishing holdings, even though those holdings were reportedly making him as much as $75 million a year. Bank of America sold the debt to Fortress Investments. Sony reportedly proposed a restructuring deal which would give them a future option to buy half of Jackson's stake in their jointly owned publishing company (leaving Jackson with a 25% stake). Jackson agreed to a Sony-backed refinancing deal in April 2006, although the exact details were not made public. Jackson did not have a recording contract in place with Sony or any other major record label at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ja ... 80.9309.29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jackson#Final_years_.282006.E2.80.9309.29)
So Mike and Sony made a deal in 2006, but did he really sell half of stake to Sony? We don't know. I think Mike never was in dept at all, I even think he owns much much more than we can even imagine. But that aside. He and Sony made a deal and we don't know what kind of deal. Maybe Sony and MJ worked out their differences? Maybe this deal was about the hoax? Sony would get all the deals concerning MJ after his 'death' and would help Mike with this hoax. Or maybe Mike really wants to screw Sony and Sony is in this hoax without knowing they will get screwed. Both is possible, but IF Sony has bad intentions, it doesn't mean TS has bad intentions as well. Mike owns half of Sony publishing and therefore has ties with Sony as well.
Now why would TS have bad intentions? What has he actually told us? He told us Mike wants to turn 666 upside down and awaken the masses. Would Sony promote that if they are part of that themselves? Doesn't make sense. Sony wants to make $$ out of this fake hoax? Doesn't make sense at all, we are just with a few. Did Mike promote it before June 25, 2009? Yes he did. It's everywhere: in his lyrics, in his art, in his symbolism, album covers, videos, speeches, you name it. So TS is only telling us what Mike himself tried to tell us for years.
What about Elvis? Why also link to Linda Hood while Linda is now telling us Jesse told her he doesn't support the case? Is Linda telling the truth and Eliza isn't? Or is Eliza telling the truth and Linda isn't? We don't know, all we know is that Linda also thinks that Eliza's DNA proof is legit.
It is also odd that Eliza's DNA results were good enough for the judge in Memphis to allow Vernon Presley's estate to be reopened. And yes, it definitely was reopened. I followed the case on a daily basis. Did any of you know that Lisa Marie and Sandy Miller (attempted) were both contacted through the court? But all of this is not good enough for all of you.
http://www.lindahoodsigmontruth.com/page1 (http://www.lindahoodsigmontruth.com/page1)
TS knew that as well and there is a big chance TS has no idea why Linda doesn't support the case anymore. I remember Linda deleting or moving a post when TS linked to it. Why do that? Is she following TS and if so, why is she following TS/TIAI?
Linda now claims that Jesse does not want to be exposed and therefore doesn't supports Eliza's case. Eliza says he does. Now who is telling the truth? If Eliza is lying, I would like to have answers to the following questions:
-Why did Jesse provide Suzanne Stratford from FOX 8 News with a cheek swap? If he didn't intent to be revealed as being alive, why send a cheek swap to the media?
-Why would he co-write a book with that Dr. Hinton about him being still alive?
-Why would he send Eliza a licked envelope in 2008, knowing his DNA would be on it?
-Why is Linda still operating a website where she is trying to convince people that Jesse is Elvis and that he is still alive?
Here is my thought on this: Elvis/Jesse is turning 76 soon. He probably won't live for another 50 years and wants the world to know the truth. Because he doesn't want to be haunted by paparazzi anymore and doesn't want to be in the limelight anymore, he wants it to get out another way. Simply writing a letter to the media will not help because they won't even bother to analyse the handwriting because too many people claim to be Elvis. So first he tries with Dr. Hinton and the book. This was picked up by Fox news but afterwards ignored and Hinton was ridiculed. It didn't get the attention needed. Then suddenly Linda, who he has had contact with for years, opens a website where she shows why Jesse is Elvis and why he is still alive. Linda gets attacked as well and the handwriting tests are being ignored. Then Eliza shows up and there is a new possibility. She is his half-sister and Eliza would be able to prove so in court, so he sends her his DNA as well. Eliza is being ridiculed as well and people say she is a fake. Maybe Eliza knows why and how Elvis wants the world to know he is still alive and maybe that is why she is taking this to court. Fact is that we don't know the complete story and therefore we can't judge.
But what does it all have to do with MJ? What is the link and why would TS link to this case and support a media rally? To me the Elvis/Eliza case is not important to the hoax. I believe Mike faked his death from minute one and I don't need the Elvis case or thisisalsoit.com to make me believe he is alive and kicking. But I do think Mike and Elvis know each other and I also think Mike knows what is going on with the Elvis case. Elvis might support MJ because he walked the same road. The media ignored the rally completely. Probably TS knew they would, and maybe he wanted to show us how hard it is to convince people with just logic arguments and how frustrating it is when people say you´re crazy and ignore your logic thinking. Here is what the lawyer wrote:
Eliza can establish the chain of custody showing how she obtained the samples. But for people to accept it, they have to believe her tale about how she got the DNA.
In other words, what if she's making the whole thing up? That's something I've thought about at length (I am a lawyer, after all). If Eliza invented all of this, and the DNA isn't from Presley relatives but is really from her own cousins, and none of them are Elvis relations, then all of the following would have to be true:
Jesse would have to be "in on it," because his DNA matches Eliza's -- so they really are half-siblings.
That would mean either she or Jesse would have had to track the other down, despite their age difference, because Eliza was adopted as a baby and didn't know she had a brother.
They would have also had to track down cousins from both sides of Jesse's family, which again would have been tough because Eliza was adopted.
The would-be-scam would have been started back in at least 2001, because that's when the Dr. Hinton book about Elvis being alive was published.
The scammers would have had to fool Suzanne Stratford and her bosses at FOX 8 TV News (unless they're in on it, of course), because they never would have done the stories if they thought Eliza and Jesse were committing fraud.
They would had to have fooled Dr. Yates and his DNA company, as well as Shirley Mason (the graphologist), among many others -- not to mention the Missouri Attorney General.
Plus, they would have had to plan to submit the Jesse DNA to FOX 8 TV News back in 2002 and then wait to spring their master plan into action in 2008, because Eliza's 2008 sample from the pink Elvis envelope and the 2002 Jesse sample that FOX 8 TV News had tested match each other. Why begin a scam in 2001 only to wait until 2008 to see it through?
Not to mention the fact that if this was all a master scheme to defraud the public, through a court proceeding, why would they have done it knowing that it would be so easy for their plan to fall apart? Elvis Presley Enterprises simply has to march into court with the DNA of Lisa Marie, or either one of the two cousins tested for that matter, and they could prove in a snap that it's not true ... unless, of course, it IS true.
In other words, if this was a fraud, it would be so easy for the "Presley" camp to disprove it that no one would think they could get away with it Yet no one has come forward in the court case to stop Eliza.
http://www.probatelawyerblog.com/2010/0 ... -mean.html (http://www.probatelawyerblog.com/2010/05/the-elvis-presley-conspiracy-part-iv-what-does-it-all-mean.html)
I believe Eliza is telling the truth about being Elvis' half-sister. Fox news believes that as well, Andrew Mayoras believes it and also Linda believes she is. Does Elvis support her case? I believe he does when I think about all the proof he provided Hinton, Linda and Eliza with. Why is Linda claiming something else? I don't know. Maybe this is all a hoax within a hoax and is Elvis distracting the masses the same way as MJ is distracting the masses with contradicting story. Maybe there is another reason why Linda is now saying this. I don't know and maybe TS doesn't know either. Do we need legal proof to believe Eliza or TS is telling the truth? Maybe that would help for some, but let's face it: Mike was acquitted in a legal procedure and some still think he's a pedophile, so legal proof doesn't help those who have a stubborn mind either.
My conclusion after thinking for myself is that TS is genuine, supportive and close to MJ, if not MJ himself. None of the opposers has ever convinced me otherwise throughout the months, because I have never seen a genuine attempt to debunk him, I only saw agressive attacks without logic arguments. I have also never seen one of the family members oppose it by hinting that TS is a fraud, I have only seen support from them and don't say that the family doesn't know about TS, they must. This is the largest hoax site on the internet and they would have to live under a rock far into the woods if they would not be aware of this site. TS is a big subject on this forum and linked on the index, so they can't miss his posts when they visit here. My conclusion is also that Eliza is who she says she is and I also think that Elvis supports her. The harder people try to convince you that something is not true, the more you should think for yourself and question their intentions.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Were in stage two and all we have to do is keep using our brains, think for ourselves and keep the faith that one day we will be in stage three.
Lastly: should TS explain himself? I don't think so. I want to ask those who say some of us follow TS blindly, can't think for ourselves and rely to much on his posts, why they need an explanation from him so bad? Do YOU rely on him that much? Are you seeking for confirmation that he is legit because TS' posts are the only reason you believe this is a hoax? And TS doesn't owe us. He repeatedly said we had to think for ourselves and not just believe everything we are being told. He provided us with lots of valuable info and he didn't even have to do that. Do we need him to say who he is before we see the obvious? I don't. I don't need to know who he is, because when I think for myself and read his posts I know he is supporting us and Mike, and that is enough for me. I wouldn't believe him less when he said he is MJ, and I wouldn't believe him less when he said he is someone we never heard of.
TS never convinced me Mike was alive, I knew that way before TS ever posted. TS only made me think on a different level and that has helped me the past year in forming my opinion on everything in this world, not just this hoax. I became a wiser person and I learned a bunch about myself.
And maybe, just maybe he would have tried to give an explanation when people would have asked him in a more respectful way and not by accusing him of plotting with Sony against MJ.
-
Thank you. A great post.
-
Wow here is late i just can't wait to read your entire post tomorrow !!!
-
ok so thank you for sharing your views and opinions, and reminding people of MJ and numerology
may I ask what is circled in the last pic on the left, from the pic of the album cover?
-
ok so thank you for sharing your views and opinions, and reminding people of MJ and numerology
may I ask what is circled in the last pic on the left, from the pic of the album cover?
the one with Bubbles? a 7
-
AMEN SOUZA!!! APPLAUDING YOU SO LOUDLY!!! SUCH AN AMAZING POST!!! Thank you so much for such an effort, spending your time and making this very enlightening post!!!
If I could do it, I would love to applaud your post like this dude :lol:
[youtube:zoxmmzxk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ZP7fOylH4[/youtube:zoxmmzxk]
-
And about Michael's numerology, may I add this spaceship picture which directly points to the "death" date. :D
25+06+2009=2040
(http://i54.tinypic.com/ka5rnq.jpg)
-
AMEN SOUZA!!! APPLAUDING YOU SO LOUDLY!!! SUCH AN AMAZING POST!!! Thank you so much for such an effort, spending your time and making this very enlightening post!!!
If I could do it, I would love to applaud your effort like this dude :lol:
[youtube:32u6218z]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ZP7fOylH4[/youtube:32u6218z]
I would hate to get slapped by him than anyone else. :shock:
-
And about Michael's numerology, may I add this spaceship which directly points to the "death" date. :D
25+06+2009=2040
(http://i54.tinypic.com/ka5rnq.jpg)
...someone's pants are too tight! :lol: :lol: :lol:
JK... or am I?? 8-)
-
ok so thank you for sharing your views and opinions, and reminding people of MJ and numerology
may I ask what is circled in the last pic on the left, from the pic of the album cover?
the one with Bubbles? a 7
oh no , the circle on the tux
-
ok so thank you for sharing your views and opinions, and reminding people of MJ and numerology
may I ask what is circled in the last pic on the left, from the pic of the album cover?
the one with Bubbles? a 7
oh no , the circle on the tux
It's the dangerous autograph code.
-
ok so thank you for sharing your views and opinions, and reminding people of MJ and numerology
may I ask what is circled in the last pic on the left, from the pic of the album cover?
the one with Bubbles? a 7
oh no , the circle on the tux
It's the dangerous autograph code.
wow! so fascinating! ok now I say, no way in hell its all a coincidence!
-
I would hate to get slapped by him than anyone else. :shock:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
-
Souza, your post is very eloquent.
Imo, People just panic at times and can´t find clearly what they panic from.
I still don´t understand why TS involved Elvis with this hoax on the first place. The chaos starts from there.
-
AMEN SOUZA!!! APPLAUDING YOU SO LOUDLY!!! SUCH AN AMAZING POST!!! Thank you so much for such an effort, spending your time and making this very enlightening post!!!
If I could do it, I would love to applaud your effort like this dude :lol:
[youtube:1nafnj4r]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ZP7fOylH4[/youtube:1nafnj4r]
I would hate to get slapped by him than anyone else. :shock:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
-
Souza, your post is very eloquent.
Imo, People just panic at times and can´t find clearly what they panic from.
I still don´t understand why TS involved Elvis with this hoax on the first place. The chaos starts from there.
Maybe that is done intentional to see if people would loose their heads over it and stop beLIEving.
-
Could be. May be TS could redirect to the answer to the question someday.
Also I would like to know, why "LIE" in "beLIEve" are used in versals?
-
Could be. May be TS could redirect to the answer to the question someday.
Also I would like to know, why "LIE" in "beLIEve" are used in versals?
You should ask the beLIEvers who started it. I use it because we need to believe MJ being dead is a lie, along with many other things we have been fed by the media.[/color]
-
;)
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=13802&start=50 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=13802&start=50)
Hmmm, let's see...
Option 1: There is a chance he needs to wait for the Eliza case/Vernon exhumation, and the planning for his own exhumation as well. I do hope he is ready though, by that I mean he knows we're here for him when he needs us and he feels safe and supported enough to come back. I haven't seen TS redirect to Mr. Marley yet, so despite yesterday's redirect, I'm still a liddle worried. In this case Mike might have had several dates in mind, some of which have already passed, some still to come. There are many factors he can't control, so in this case he has some buffers.
Option 2: There is a part of me that thinks he has this one date in mind since he started planning this. If he is really such a perfectionist, he must have this perfect bamdate planned in advance as well. Probably impossible for us to find out, but that would make it even more perfect. In this case TS' predictions of possible bamdates are either a test for us to see if we will keep the faith no matter what, or Mike simply is the only one who knows the date.
Option 3: He is deciding if he will be back at all.
I haven't made up my mind yet. I am leaning towards option 2, but it could be option 1 as well, simply because it makes sense.
Although I would definitely understand option 3, I don't think that's the case, because then all of this would have been in vain. I don't see him starting something without finishing it, most certainly not something like this where he has put his heart and soul in.
I LIKE the combo of Option 1 and 2.
It is MY belief that when Michael began planning and preparing for this "hoax" he indeed knew the "perfect day" to "die".
Based on what I know about him and his love of numerology, he could pinpoint the "perfect day" to "die" and during his planning phase, (the years from the start, all the way up to today) he probably has added some things and deleted some things to his plan according to circumstances out of his control. Flexibility is key. ;)
Think about ALL the shit he has endured since roughly 1991.
While planning this "hoax" I am thinking he probably adjusted the original plan to include REVENGE and Personal VENDETTAS that came about as a result of The Conspiracies towards him.
These things NEED to be finished and ticked off a list before this is over. 8-)
It is my opinion that Michael indeed has a rough timeframe for his "BAM"
(whatever that means to him.)
I believe that the year 2012 is a major clue for the rough draft timeframe of a "BAM" and the intial end of the "hoax". I also believe that there are exact planned dates still to come for certain things to play out accordingly but, what happens in between those dates to this "hoax" is out of Michael's hands (kind of), he has no control over how we as "hoax" players are gonna act, or respond to any of this.
He can influence us, by clues or TS Updates, TMZ articles, his own family but, when it comes down to it THIS HOAX has a LIFE of it's own.
There is ALOT of things ALL happening and being accomplished at the same time.
What better way to Get A Message out to The World?
Fake your death and get people involved in the world's biggest classroom and educate them while entertaining them, so we don't go completely NUTS, lol.
PURE GENIUS :mrgreen:
Seriously though if Mike had done his concerts in London and it was rumoured that he wanted to use that as a platform for a message, only the people at the concerts would hear the message. Doing it the way he has, SHOCK FACTOR, by Faking his death, getting the publics attention, getting them involved in a game, ARG, teach them ALL (over the net) about ALL the corrupt shit in the world. Recruit for the ARMY of L.O.V.E.
AWESOME! :ugeek:
Lead by example, that is what Mike has done his whole LIFE, he has lead by example and he continues to LEAD right now. Just read this whole forum, look at his videos, interviews, he is leading the Army of L.O.V.E. RIGHT NOW.
Peace
sorry I am long winded this has been on my mind for a while.
We had expressed opinions about the reasons for a delay and Eliza's case back in the thread I posted. I am a firm believer in always reviewing. I review my own posts to see where my own thinking and attitude was at when I began and where is my thinking and attitude now. I use this as a comparison to gage my own changes in behaviour. Am I learning what is being taught? I think this post you did is very well thought out and if it helps all the better.
Peace
-
Could be. May be TS could redirect to the answer to the question someday.
Also I would like to know, why "LIE" in "beLIEve" are used in versals?
You should ask the beLIEvers who started it. I use it because we need to believe MJ being dead is a lie, along with many other things we have been fed by the media.[/color]
I think it started with the Criss Angel posters! what happened with that?
-
Could be. May be TS could redirect to the answer to the question someday.
Also I would like to know, why "LIE" in "beLIEve" are used in versals?
You should ask the beLIEvers who started it. I use it because we need to believe MJ being dead is a lie, along with many other things we have been fed by the media.[/color]
I think it started with the Criss Angel posters! what happened with that?
Thanks for the info.
I have no idea which believers started using it.
-
Souza -- Great Post - Great example of THINKING for YOURSELF!
You were brave to attempt the $999 rewards... having spent many years studying maths, I chose instead to try my luck at the 1 in a million coincidence test TS also had on offer... and I lost... despite the odds being significantly higher than 0,00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000989755466% !
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
We're in stage two and all we have to do is keep using our brains, think for ourselves and keep the faith that one day we will be in stage three.
It is important to keep our objectivity - "Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance." —Albert Einstein
We will find out in due time about Elvis and the full connection with TS/MJ. As it stands, we are still missing some facts to draw a final conclusion... but your theory Souza is plausible. And the romantic in me, hope it is right ... as it would create a Big shock wave before the even Bigger shock wave... call it the wake-up call before the Tsunami of Love starts....
With L.O.V.E
-
Fantastic post, Souza. I will applaud you for taking so much time out to do this!
I do not think TS came to explain everything to us and tell us everything. There's a lot of stuff TS doesn't tell us, and we figure that out on our own.
-
Well said, Souza. Thanks for the voice of reason and common sense. :)
-
I don't know if this has been pointed out but there is another triple 7 on the arm you posted. It's on the wrist.
Regarding the Jesse/Eliza/Linda case...if Lisa Marie or Pricilla speak up and say he's alive that would get peoples attention.
I have never believed that Michael is broke. I agree with you there - Michael owns a lot more than we realize. His financial struggles never added up in my mind.
-
I don't know if this has been pointed out but there is another triple 7 on the arm you posted.
That's is why I posted it. ;)
-
Kudos to you Souza! Thanks for taking the time to put this together ... it's confirmed my beliefs and strengthened my faith. Love to all xx
-
Souza, I just want to tell you what a great job you have and are doing. Whether you know it or not, you have done an outstanding job of leadership not just moderating a hoax investigation website. Once the information was gathered you never waivered in spite of all of the attacks. You've been opened to new ideas or theories when necessary but never stopped believing. You handled the naysayers when necessary. I have been follower for a long time and even I have had some doubts. But like an excellent teacher, you reminded us of all of the clues that were discovered. Thanks so much for not only taking us on an incredible journey but keeping us on the path. I would like the Bam as much as others, but I have to say this journey to the truth has been remarkable. In some ways, I will hate to see it end. I have trouble imagining any other adventure that could match let alone exceed this one.
I've no doubt that there is something great for you at the end of all of this. I've learned much from observing your leadership skills in a battle for the truth.
Thanks.
-
I don't know if this has been pointed out but there is another triple 7 on the arm you posted.
That's is why I posted it. ;)
sorry - I thought you were showing the one at the top of his arm. My bad.. :)
Question - when do you sleep....LOL.
-
I'm glad you wrote this post Souza.
I've always felt that TS is a genuine insider and I believe Eliza as well. I don't know how big a part, if any, that Elvis has to do with MJ's hoax but I imagine there has been some contact between them, both before and after June 25th. What's kinda funny is that when I first thought MJ could be alive (I think it was June 26th?), I started googling stuff and the Derek Clontz site said that MJ and Elvis were alive and in hiding together somewhere. :lol: Could've been a metaphor or something but interesting nonetheless considering all the developments in the hoax.
TS has proven himself to be a genuine insider and if people still want to question that, then that's up to them if they want to waste their time. We don't know TS's identity, but none of us know anybody's on here, for the most part. You or I could theoretically be an insider posing as a death hoax investigator. (I'm not by the way! :D )
This forum is the main source for all-things-death-hoax. TS re-directs to this forum regularly and is a member here and we are on TMZ's blogroll. I hope the arguing about TS stops so we can get on with what we do best.
And remember, it's all for LOVE!!! :)
-
I would like the Bam as much as others, but I have to say this journey to the truth has been remarkable. In some ways, I will hate to see it end. I have trouble imagining any other adventure that could match let alone exceed this one.
I get what you mean and I enjoy this journey as well for many reasons, but I am eager to go to the next step; working on a global healing. I believe it's possible as long as we stay strong.
There is something great for all of us: freedom and independency. That is our goal and that is what we must fight for, whatever barriers we may face.
-
Question - when do you sleep....LOL.
When my mind is at peace.
-
Question - when do you sleep....LOL.
When my mind is at peace.
I can relate to that!
Great post by the way. Thanks for taking the time to post all of that in one place, it really was needed.
-
origine of the beLIEver thing
(http://www.inter-activities.com/Eric_SERRA/Arthur_Vengeance_Maltazard_Cirque_Soleil_Adele_Blanc_Sec/criss_angel_believe.jpg)
-
This is a great post. I'm really sorry I'm braindead from work at the moment because I'd like to read it more critically then I was able to muster for the time being. I'll come back.
For the time being, can someone hold my hand and show me the numbers in the black and white MJ graffic logo that Souza posted in the OP? I'll see if I can copy/paste it here in an edit.
try this
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001082787/MJ-logo-17767396540_xlarge.png)
edit, I see (2) 7s but it's like an ink blot and I'm going blind along with being braindead now.
-
This is a great post. I'm really sorry I'm braindead from work at the moment because I'd like to read it more critically then I was able to muster for the time being. I'll come back.
For the time being, can someone hold my hand and show me the numbers in the black and white MJ graffic logo that Souza posted in the OP? I'll see if I can copy/paste it here in an edit.
try this
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001082787/MJ-logo-17767396540_xlarge.png)
edit, I see (2) 7s but it's like an ink blot and I'm going blind along with being braindead now.
Lol...yeah, I saw two 7's right away.
-
Which is very cool because I got this tattoo a year ago and had no idea, lol. I'm all about the 7s.
But ok, where's the 3rd? (Besides on my necklace)
-
Which is very cool because I got this tattoo a year ago and had no idea, lol. I'm all about the 7s.
But ok, where's the 3rd? (Besides on my necklace)
Well, I suppose the entire thing makes one big, fancy 7 if you wanna get creative :lol:
And that is SO cool... my cousin and I were JUST considering this when we were talking about getting matching tattoos, lol!
-
Which is very cool because I got this tattoo a year ago and had no idea, lol. I'm all about the 7s.
But ok, where's the 3rd? (Besides on my necklace)
Well, I suppose the entire thing makes one big, fancy 7 if you wanna get creative :lol:
And that is SO cool... my cousin and I were JUST considering this when we were talking about getting matching tattoos, lol!
I considered the whole thing as a 3rd 7 but I thought that's a bit of a stretch?
Dude, if there's only 2 legitimate 7s in that and I have the 3rd around my neck... that's spooky. because. the only reason I am only wearing one 7 on the necklace is because the store only had (2) 7s on the shelf when I made the necklace. I wanted 3 but had to settle for 1 because I'm thinking 2 just isn't right.
I got the tattoo last year and didn't know there were 7s in it until right now. I made the necklace just this past September and that completed the 777. I'm all spiritual and centered now on my 7ness :shock: :lol:
-
Which is very cool because I got this tattoo a year ago and had no idea, lol. I'm all about the 7s.
But ok, where's the 3rd? (Besides on my necklace)
Well, I suppose the entire thing makes one big, fancy 7 if you wanna get creative :lol:
And that is SO cool... my cousin and I were JUST considering this when we were talking about getting matching tattoos, lol!
I considered the whole thing as a 3rd 7 but I thought that's a bit of a stretch?
Dude, if there's only 2 legitimate 7s in that and I have the 3rd around my neck... that's spooky. because. the only reason I am only wearing one 7 on the necklace is because the store only had (2) 7s on the shelf when I made the necklace. I wanted 3 but had to settle for 1 because I'm thinking 2 just isn't right.
I got the tattoo last year and didn't know there were 7s in it until right now. I made the necklace just this past September and that completed the 777. I'm all spiritual and centered now on my 7ness :shock: :lol:
HAHA...omg, this made my night! Too funny! :lol:
-
The numbers can't be coincidences.
I would add as significant that TMZ told us about 7 from the beginning - they did it on purpose, so we can take notice and follow the numbers.
For me TS and MJ are one and the same person.
I think TS is also posting here under another username. He said the next update will only be after the BAM, but in the meanwhile I think he can't stay away - he has to prepare us for what's about to come.
I also think MJ was never broke.
-
Souza I have to say this:
your avatar is like a prewiew of Hold My Hand :D
-
Guess what? TS has redirected to this topic ????
Souza's first post : :o :o :o :D :D
Because there are many threads now about TS I decided to give this its own, so I don't have to repeat myself.
I see some people trying to debunk TS on assumption and speculation and I don't see many good arguments or calculations. Because people claimed before that I followed TS blindly, I took his challenge a while ago to see what the chance was that all the numerology is just a coincidence, let me repost my calculations right here:
-
I have a good feeling about this. I know something good and unique will come of this. Always stop, pause or rewind if you have too. It's natural that not every soul will agree on the same matter, that's why we must study and think for ourselves. Why is this forum always redirected by TS? Cause this is the biggest of them all IMHO. I personally don't need to go elsewhere. I can find great info here. I love been here. Even TMZ has it listed. So, let's keep studying and learning everything that is good about Michael Jackson. Remember...
"we are all here because of him, may that continue with him leading the way."
I respect everybody's opinion. Is a good feeling. ;)
-
SOUZA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I AM SO AMAZINGLY EXCITED ABOUT THIS POST! Yes for the obvious reason of presenting an incredibly well laid out in your face set of facts and logical thinking, but also for another reason.
So often I feel like I am spending so much time in hoax mode. My thoughts are always on MJ, TS, Elvis, Eliza, the state of the world, BAMsday, you name it. But if we are to live lives of excellence well that is what is required.
I can only imagine the many sleepless nights that you had toiling over things and how long it took you to put this post together. Just when I thought I was thinking for myself, your post has upped the game for me. Have you heard the phrase "iron sharpens iron"? Well Souza, you (and so many others on this board) are my iron. Thank you for raising me to new levels of thought.
And TS, once again, thank you. I know you too put in hours and hours and probably sleepless nights as well. I imagine you reading this board, figuring out how to help guide us without spoon feeding us. I am so grateful for how you have sharpened my mental skills as well.
I used to be someone that just went with the flow of things... don't rock the boat.... etc. Now I question and investigate everything and I'm not afraid to stand up for what I believe in and FIGHT!
THANK YOU!!!!
I just wanted to share with you this video in thanks and in preparation for the road ahead. I love you all!
[youtube:kyufiu5d]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6wRkzCW5qI[/youtube:kyufiu5d]
-
The MJ and Elvis connection seems so elusive. I was just noticing there were records of Elvis called "Elvis is Back". Was MJ as Back somehow connecting to this? I guess Elvis is too old to actually be BACK?
Presley returned to the United States on March 2, 1960, and was honorably discharged with the rank of sergeant on March 5.[145] The train that carried him from New Jersey to Tennessee was mobbed all the way, and Presley was called upon to appear at scheduled stops to please his fans.[146] Back in Memphis, he wasted no time in returning to the studio. Sessions in March and April yielded two of his best-selling singles, the ballads "It's Now or Never" and "Are You Lonesome Tonight?", and Elvis Is Back!
Wiki
[attachment=1:nop1zft9]ftd_elvisisback[1].jpg[/attachment:nop1zft9][attachment=0:nop1zft9]416578b[1].jpg[/attachment:nop1zft9]
-
If you haven't seen this yet, might be a good idea...listen carefully to "Ginger"
[youtube:1dhfds0v]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLSDcRYJTRo&playnext=1&list=PLBD232093DFEBCDC7&index=20[/youtube:1dhfds0v]
-
Souza, your post is very eloquent.
Imo, People just panic at times and can´t find clearly what they panic from.
I still don´t understand why TS involved Elvis with this hoax on the first place. The chaos starts from there.
Maybe that is done intentional to see if people would loose their heads over it and stop beLIEving.
I will so read all of your post Souza! LOL But I'm so sleepy right now it's not even funny. @_@
But anyway, I just wanted to add something on this real quick.
I honestly believe that the Elvis connection runs much deeper. I did not really understand it at first but I have come to believe that it is not meant to cause confusion or to test our fortitude. I have been looking into that recently and I have had some really strange but enlightening revelations concerning this. I will be making a post about that in the coming months. I'm sure it will be MUCH sooner but I do not want to make any promises. lol
I have a really big project planned and I will be contacting both you and Mo about it soon. That's kinda the reason why I have not posted on here that often. >_<;
-
Wow Souza! I read your post and I suddenly feel inspired and on a whole new level - I even put on "Breaking News" which has made me feel even more pumped. I always enjoy reading your posts because they are full of good intentions, logic and they are always well balanced. I can't debunk anything you've said there because it's all so true. I really don't know what to say, I just wish people would be more positive and as logical as you.
L.O.V.E
-
Although I know upfront that my thoughts are most likely not going to be appreciated and shut down I decided to post them anyway. Do whatever you want to do with them.
Yesterday I already pointed out to multicontextual research and countless events which hold numerology, asking if this means that all these events are planned.
Here's a nice blog to read, posted on July 3, 2009:
http://pigs-in-the-parlor.blogspot.com/ ... ology.html (http://pigs-in-the-parlor.blogspot.com/2009/07/more-on-michael-jackson-numerology.html)
In this blog numerology is already addressed, but note that this blog was posted 4 days before TMZ came up with the article "Michael Jackson -- #7".
As you can see there are a whole bunch of more synchronicities, but TS never mentioned these. Had he mentioned these as well, people simply wouldn't have understood what the heck he was talking about.
Also, it's significant that on June 25 2009 THREE celebrities reportedly died - Michael Jackson, Farrah Fawcett and Ed McMahon. In multicontextual research there's a lot connecting these three deaths, so if this is all planned by MJ then he knew upfront that these people would die on June 25 2009..? On June 28 Billy Mays died. Again a lot of synchronicities with the deaths of MJ and Farrah Fawcett. MJ knew that upfront also, right?
Here's a link to read up on the synchronicities of these deaths:
http://www.synchromysticismforum.com/vi ... ?f=5&t=930 (http://www.synchromysticismforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=930)
On to This Is It:
Take a look at this image:
(http://www.supertorchritual.com/underground/images/09b/ThisIsIt-pentacle2.gif)
The TII pose of MJ perfectly fits into an inverted pentagram. The inverted pentagram has come to be seen by many pagans as representing the dark side and it is seen as an evil symbol. In symbolism, an inverted figure always signifies a perverted power.
Now, take a look at this image:
(http://www.supertorchritual.com/underground/images/10b/Earth-penta-inv-Atlantean.gif)
The five points of the inverted pentagram all point out to significant dates and events in multicontextual research. All these days and events that occurred on these days are synchronically connected. MJ knew upfront that all these events were going to occur on or around these days..?
Also the cover of the new album "MICHAEL" fits into an inverted pentagram:
(http://www.supertorchritual.com/underground/images/10b/Michael-pentagram-crown-orbital.jpg)
(http://www.supertorchritual.com/underground/images/10b/Michael-pentagram-crown-ThisIsIt.jpg)
Multicontextual research is not something that wasn't mentioned before on this forum. I started reading up on it and researching it as from December 2009. In July Hazzely posted Goro Adachi's Moonwalker Prophecy: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12551&p=209347 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12551&p=209347). The replies show clearly that people don't understand what it's all about, and that is perfectly understandable when one is not familiar with multicontextual research.
It has been proven on this forum that holding back an important part of information or not providing clear and understandable information leads people to think in a certain direction. A perfect example is Eliza Presley's DNA evidence. Whether it was mentioned in the Mayoras blogs or not, people didn't notice it and thought Eliza's DNA evidence was solid proof until I posted the thread "Eliza Presley's DNA evidence no Legal Evidence?".
Another example would be holding back technical details about a "clue" which prove that this clue is not a clue at all due to technical research proving it could only be done ONE way, and NOT the way hoaxers claim it could have been done.
A third example is holding back important information as to how a certain "thing" was originally initiated and what its purpose would have been, but by holding back that part of the truth people again are led to think in a certain direction.
A final example is: Had I straight from the start mentioned Eliza Presley's email in which she asked Souza and me to remove our posts in the Linda Hood thread, I can't help but suspect that the reactions from our members would have been at least a little bit different from what they were like now.
Now, TS redirects to this post in which incorrect information is provided. In the post it reads: "Linda now claims that Jesse does not want to be exposed and therefore doesn't supports Eliza's case."
This is not the case. Linda doesn't claim that now all of a sudden, Linda stated this on her website in December 2009 already. That fact led me to question as to why TS wrote in his post of 9/9/10: "And Elvis/Jesse still has Linda as an informer".
So, basically what I'm saying is: by not telling everything that is important or twisting information or redirecting to incomplete or incorrect information, people are led to think into a certain direction, whatever the purpose of that might be.
Mind - I didn't say MJ DIED.
-
Hey guys!
This has probably been discussed before, regarding the 1998 autographs. There are several of similar autographs with the 1998 and arrow out there.
The 666 does look more like 000 in these pictures though and the Mickey Mouse one is from the Bad era. Any thoughts on this? :)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iq2vQY1Jeaw/SlejGk3y6cI/AAAAAAAAOIs/oT0CMpQ2JdI/s400/MJ-fedora2.jpg)
(http://thestar.com.my/archives/2009/8/25/lifeliving/f_pg04mickey.jpg)
-
Mo, you come up with again a theory and arguments based on assumptions. Has it ever occured to you that the TII poster also looks like the V for Vendetta "V"?
(http://cdn.showbizspy.com/static/36316.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_VcNkdiuUVIM/RsiT5DdkxRI/AAAAAAAAADU/614pUu4KE78/s320/logo_vendetta.gif)
And there is another poster, where he turns the devil horns upside down:
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:kM7uEuRc5d5-XM:http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d151/godintelligence/MJ_ThisIsIt_1_L.jpg&t=1)
That's mocking TPTB, would they promote that themselves?
And what is it? Are you right or am I right? Based on all I pointed out above, I think I am right, because if you are right, please explain to me why Mike promoted the numbers throughout the years himself.
You also did not answer any of the other questions I asked in my post, yet you are attacking MY point of view. "You tell me I'm wrong, then you better prove you're right". If you can't, then just accept that we do not all share your opinion and agree to disagree, instead of keep attacking every post I make that doesn't suit your new point of view regarding the hoax. You again did not convince me at all. Is this thinking for yourself, or following and relying on other people's blogs? I shared MY points, you shared other's. You come with Linda's posts, Goro's blogposts, and all other kinds of sources, but I have not seen YOUR opinion, based on your own common sense and logic thinking. Your theories are not coherent and you seem to be unable to answer my questions. Here they are again:
Maybe one of the debunkers can do the same and prove my calculations wrong or come up with a well argumented explanation for this? To me this is proof that it's not all coincidence.
To those that say that the numerology is BS and not planned by Mike but by the ones that killed him or tried to kill him, please explain why he used the numbers throughout the years himself.
Was Mike stupid and did he tell those who were after his life about the importance of the numbers?
Why would TS have bad intentions?
If Eliza is lying, I would like to have answers to the following questions:
-Why did Jesse provide Suzanne Stratford from FOX 8 News with a cheek swap? If he didn't intent to be revealed as being alive, why send a cheek swap to the media?
-Why would he co-write a book with that Dr. Hinton about him being still alive?
-Why would he send Eliza a licked envelope in 2008, knowing his DNA would be on it?
-Why is Linda still operating a website where she is trying to convince people that Jesse is Elvis and that he is still alive?
I want to ask those who say some of us follow TS blindly, can't think for ourselves and rely to much on his posts, why they need an explanation from him so bad? Do YOU rely on him that much? Are you seeking for confirmation that he is legit because TS' posts are the only reason you believe this is a hoax?
I do not want another pointless fight here so don't expect me to go "welles-nietes" here because I am done with that and I will not respond further to your posts because I already know what your reaction will be to this. You made up your mind and I never changed my mind. We have a complete different opinion, and you having another theory doesn't mean yours is right, same as I can't say mine is right. I am only explaining why mine makes more sense and I am asking you to share with us why you think yours makes more sense, because so far it's still not really clear.[/color]
-
http://lindahoodsigmontruth.com/page53 (http://lindahoodsigmontruth.com/page53)
WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 10, 2010
ANNOUNCEMENT
I have been asked some questions about why I do not support the court case, why Elvis/Jesse does not support the court case, am I sure that I am still in touch with the real Elvis Presley, why is the court case not within his approval while my web site is, etc.
I will state very briefly here a few answers...but I will not air "dirty laundry" here about this case nor why Elvis/Jesse does not support the case.
His disapproval of this case was made clearly known to each of us involved in October of last year...2009. If you will note, I have stated a number of times, when posting an update on the case that my only interest in this case was because it involved Jesse's DNA. I have not posted one word of update about anyone involved in this case.
You may recall, if you were visiting my web site back last year, that I did remove my pages regarding the party involved and the case from my site rather abruptly.
I only continued to post the court updates and Attorney Andy Mayoras's blog comments about the case on my web site because I knew that the proceedings would eventually substantiate myself and my web site.
Once it became clear this month that the judge has refused to dismiss the case, after seeing the DNA results which revolve around my friend Jesse's DNA, I feel that I and the truth which I tell on my web site have been sufficiently evidenced. No judge would allow a case to proceed in this manner without substantiating proof...by allowing the conference to convene on Nov. 30th to begin setting a trial date.
Therefore, I will no longer update anything about this case on my web site. I have been torn about even mentioning this case in the manner in which I have because Elvis/Jesse asked that I remove ALL concerning the party in the case from my web site...which I did. I knew how interested my visitors were in anything that would prove that my site is the truth...so I shared the little that I did.
Secondly, can anyone visiting my web site (and viewing all of the evidence, copies of actual letters to me from Elvis, my 54 pages of evidence...time after time documenting that I am telling the truth) seriously think that I am so dumb that after 18 years of contact, I would not know if the real Elvis has stopped being my friend and being in touch with me on the phone and in writing??? Get a grip people!!
You may not like me, you may be jealous of me, you may not like the truth about the lack of support for the court case...on and on as to your reasons for not believing me. But, I can assure everyone that I am neither naive, dumb, nor dishonest. My web site speaks volumes about me and the truth.
The man I am in touch with to this very day, the man who called me several times to check on my recovery from my recent surgery and sent me two gifts for my recent birthday IS ABSOLUTELY ELVIS PRESLEY...the very same man with whom I first became acquainted in 1992. Absolutely nothing about our friendship has changed...we still discuss the same things with references to the past, inquiries about the well being of my husband and our little dog (by name). NO, there are not two Jesse's, there are not two Elvis's...there are fakes, frauds and imposters who muddy the waters and lead others astray.
When Elvis/Jesse spoke with me in October, 2009, after he made his position on the case, etc. very clear to me. I offered to remove my web site and he told me no, that I could keep my web site. He has many times since then reaffirmed to me that he supports me 100% and that he would do anything he could to help me. I have asked nothing of him and I don't intend to. The only things I have asked of him is his permission to display some things and his approval for some of the info which I have on my site. I do very frequently print off pages from my site and send to him for his enjoyment and his opinion. He knows that if there is one word on my site which he does not like, that I will remove any and all content with just one word from him.
He also knows that if he changes his mind and wants me to take my web site down that it will be gone IMMEDIATELY. That, by the way, is the only reason that I will ever take it down. Even if there comes a time, when I no longer add to it nor update it, it will stand for at least three years. I have paid for that in advance. But, if Elvis/Jesse wants it gone, I will forfeit my money and delete the entire web site the moment he asks me to do so.
As for the reason that he opposes the court case while supporting my web site. The reason is really quite simple and obvious...aside from the fact that he and I are very close friends.
I can post the truth on my web site until doomsday and never actually PROVE that he is alive to the point that it will intrude on his personal life nor place him in any danger. As he spoke to me years ago about another situation relating to him being alive "Oh well...no body would believe him anyway." And NO, he was not referring to Dr. Hinton.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, THERE WILL NEVER BE ONE WORD ON MY WEB SITE WHICH COULD EVER LEAD ANYONE TO FIND HIM. I know public people that everyone would recognize if I were to mention their names who are currently in contact with Elvis/Jesse but I will NEVER, under any circumstances mention the name of one single individual who is currently in touch with him...public person nor private person. He will never be exposed nor tracked down via my web site.
Take note that Orion the singer, Jimmy Ellis, has passed away. Shelby Singleton the producer of the Orion records has passed away. The whole ORION the singer connection to Elvis himself ended way back in 1982...for the most part...
Orion Pictures went bankrupt and their film library was bought up by MGM. Again, that is all in the past.
You will NEVER see one word on my web site concerning Elvis/Jesse's current life...NONE WHATSOVER.
Therefore, my web site is a source of enlightenment and enjoyment to his fans, a means for me to disprove the lies told about me after the book was published and a means for me to stand up and defend Elvis/Jesse against the trash that has been put out there over the years about Elvis and then about Jesse and his book.
Elvis, did not owe one single word of explanation to anyone about what he did, why he did it, nor even one word that he is still alive today. I count myself the most blessed person in the world that he has chosen and allowed me to be his trusted friend. That is a God given honor and blessing to me. I treasure it with all of my heart and soul.
However, on the other hand, the court case will prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt that Elvis is alive and is now Jesse. The DNA already proves that. It will expose him and his family. it has already caused him some personal private problems which break my heart for him. It is being done in spite of the fact that he asked that it be stopped. The extent to which this case may go is a disgrace. A ruthless attempt to prove a point to the ultimate culmination of fame and money.
These above statements are all absolutely the truth and will be my final comments on any of this. I hope this will settle some of these questions once and for all. It should certainly be appreciated by everyone involved that I am taking the high road about all of this and refusing to air "dirty laundry" about anyone involved.
Truthfully yours,
Linda Hood Sigmon
Linda writes that she can post her prove that Elvis is alive, whithout actually prove that he is alive and place him in danger . Nobody can track down Elvis by her webside.
http://lindahoodsigmontruth.com/page47 (http://lindahoodsigmontruth.com/page47)
On page 47 Linda placed a photo of Elvis with his grandson send to her by Jesse himself. Maybe I'm wrong about that but when I see that person by coinsidence, and I read Linda hoods webside, It is possible that I think that might be Elvis Presley. When I looked for the picture on her webside I noticed that Linda changed that picture: It's more blurred now, the grandson is not anymore on the picture and the van is removed from the picture.
old picture on her webside
(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3135/elizajessebenjamin.jpg)
The next letter from Jesse was written to me in July, 1997. This letter accompanied the photo of Jesse with his grandson Benjamin.
There have been so many illogical disputes over this photo. I asked Jesse if I may display just the part of this letter which pertains to the photo. Here you will see that he writes of the plastic surgery to change his appearance.
It has always been a mystery to me why people don't want to believe that this photo is of Elvis with Ben. I have stated so many times...and shown proof...that Elvis's bone structure has not changed one iota and that the little boy in the photo matches other photos of Ben around that age.
changed picture
(http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2557/closeupclosephotoofjess.jpg)
About DNA Testing
Under most circumstances, DNA samples are collected by simply swabbing the inside of the cheeks with a special swab like a large Q-Tip. This is quick and painless. There is also the blood sampling ("pin prick") method (see next section). The Home DNA Test Kit is complete with illustrated instructions, swab or blood collection materials for each person, and a consent form to be filled out with information about each family member providing a sample.
The Home DNA Test Kit is often preferred because it is private, discrete, and allows family members to resolve doubts without the need for legal action. If there is a chance that you will want to use the results of the Home Paternity Test Kit in court proceedings, then you should order GTL’s legally binding Home Testing Kit. You may also make an appointment with us for a legally binding test.
If you have a special case, such as involving a deceased relative, cases of infidelity, or prenatal patenity testing we can also use blood and other tissue or fluid samples. Please call our Toll-Free number for more information.
Important information concerning the difference between Blood and Buccal sample collection methods
Buccal is the painless "Cheek Swab" Test and Blood testing is the "Pin Prick" method. If you're considering the blood option, it is quite important that you contact your physician for the collection of blood samples for children under 8 years of age. GTL offers this option because it is much faster and easier for you to collect.
The procedure involves a small lancet that is used to lightly pierce a finger (most don’t even feel it). A small drop of blood is then transferred to a collection card – that’s it. If the blood test is not for you please select Buccal.
For more information about how our are paternity tests are conducted, court admissibility, or for any other questions visit our test information page, or contact our customer service toll free at (866) 833-6895 or by email at http://www.gtldna.com/paternitytest.html (http://www.gtldna.com/paternitytest.html)
Legally Binding Home Testing
To be legally binding, DNA tests must be shipped to the witness and/or professional collector, backed by proof of the identities of the test participants and a chain of custody of the samples collected (provided by a witness). We now offer a legally binding version of our Home Test Kit for a small additional charge; this test qualifies as an AABB accredited test (see About Accredited Tests for an explanation of accredited vs. unaccredited tests). If you think that you may need to use the results of a test in court proceedings, then you should choose this home kit option.
This test requires that the home test kit be sent to the witness and for the witness to oversee sample collection, handling and return shipment to the lab. Full instructions and example documents are included with the kit. The results will be admissible in court (see Disclaimer below) if the instructions below are followed exactly.
* One (1) unrelated, disinterested witness is required.
* The home test kit must be shipped to the witness and/or professional collector.
* The unrelated witness takes or observes the sample collection, in accordance with the instructions provided with the home paternity test kit.
* Witness and Sample Providers must complete and sign the required paperwork as indicated on the included examples.
* Test participants must provide positive identification.
* Test Participants (or legal guardian in the case of a minor or legally incompetent adult) and witness must sign and date copies of positive identification, or original photograph.
* The witness must package and seal completed paternity test kit into the envelope provided.
* The witness must send the sealed envelope, via 2nd Day Courier or better, to GTL.
Results Shipment
With legally binding tests, the test results will always be mailed to you or a designee, per your instructions. Informational test results are always available online and an optional hardcopy result is available for a slight fee. For all internet orders, you can follow your order status and get test results over the internet as soon as they are ready. As a rule we do not give results over the phone, unless we have made prior arrangements with you to do so.
By default, we send result reports to the billing address given to us when your order was placed. If you need it sent elsewhere, arrangements can be made by contacting us.
Sample Retention
For Informational DNA Testing cases, we destroy the samples you submit to us immediately following the release of your results. Should you decide that you want us to archive your samples, we will archive them for up to six months for an additional fee. Please contact us if you need us to archive your DNA Test samples. For Court Admissible DNA Testing cases, we automatically archive your samples for three months at no additional cost.
Notes:
Acceptable proof of positive identification includes one of the following (signed and dated):
* Recent photograph, Polaroid or other that clearly identifies the individual
* Clearly legible, color copy of a Military ID
* Clearly legible, color copy of a State Drivers License
* Clearly legible, color copy of a State or Federal ID
Disclaimer: Due to differences among courts and state laws, we cannot guarantee that a judge will accept the results of this home test as qualified evidence. However, if you complete the home test following all instructions exactly, and the witness is available to testify in court as to the administration of the test, the results should be admissible in a court of law. If you are unsure of the admissibility of this home DNA test we suggest that you ask your attorney.
DNA Test Refund Policy
If samples are not submitted within one year of case initiation, the case will be closed. If filed within 15 days of the order date, refunds will be issued according to our policies (see below). Refunds for DNA or paternity test kits, Internet specials, and International orders will not be issued: all sales are final.
All refund inquiries must be accompanied by our Refund Request Form. If DNA test services are canceled before shipping and/or handling, a $35 refund processing fee and $25 administrative fee per shipment scheduled will be deducted.
If the DNA test kit has already been shipped, a 50% refund will be applied to all unused home paternity or DNA test kits once the kit and unused FedEx return envelope has been returned to GTL by US Mail (must be postmarked within 15 days of order).
All returned checks will be electronically redeposited without further notice. By paying for your DNA test kit by check, it is understood that you agree to these terms.
About Accredited (Legal DNA Paternity Tests) and Unaccredited (Non Legal DNA Paternity Tests)
Some DNA testing laboratories advertise themselves as "accredited" by the AABB (which previously stood for the American Association of Blood Banks) while others do not. GTL is Accredited by the AABB and ISO 17025. Accredited laboratories have passed a rigorous review and inspection of their testing processes and laboratory to insure that tests are being done accurately and thoroughly. Accredited laboratories also participate in proficiency DNA testing and are re-inspected annually. In order for a DNA test to be admissible in court, the DNA test must be performed by an accredited paternity testing laboratory. Purchasing a paternity test through an unaccredited laboratory is at best a gamble; it may be cheaper, but should you sacrifice quality for such an important test?
To be an "accredited legal paternity test" the AABB requires that the DNA sample kit be shipped to the unrelated witness and/or professional collector, be witnessed by a neutral third party with no interest in the outcome of the test. Furthermore, photographic proof of identity is required to be submitted with the test to verify the identity of the persons submitting the samples.
By definition, home (or "self-collected") paternity tests are not accredited unless they meet the above requirements. Many families opt for a home paternity test kit because it is more affordable and they wish to be discreet. If any laboratory advertises an "accredited home test" without these requirements they are lying and violating AABB standards.
At the GTL, our Informational Home Test does not require proof of identity and is therefore not an AABB accredited test. The Legally Binding Home Paternity Test, however, is an accredited DNA test and comes with full instructions on the duties of the witness and what qualifies as proof of identity.
You may rest assured that the only difference between informational home paternity tests and GTL-collected accredited legal paternity tests is the manner of collection. The paternity DNA test is absolutely identical and follows all AABB standards and accepted in court.
At this moment Elvis Presley is dead according the law. So officially he cannot sign with Elvis Presley. Maybe for Eliza it is enough for her to proof that she is related to Elvis by using this picture (maybe there are other pictures) along with the dna from the envelope and the other samples given by the relatives of Elvis.
This article is not MJ related, but it shows that when you cannot legaly proof that you are a daugher or family from someone, it will not say that your are a fraud. Sometimes you just need to be lucky. I
The lost son of a millionaire
Volkskrant 04/11/1910, 00:00
Jerry Winkler is the protagonist in a modern fairy tale: Until recently he was a beggar, addicted to drink and drugs. Now it seems he is the only son of a millionaire .
It was in the spring of 2010 in Cafe Wildschut in South Amsterdam that the 28-year-old Alfred Jan. Jerry Winkler - who then had another name - for the first time in his life saw a picture of his father. It was not even a real photograph, but a copy of a newspaper page from four years earlier.
Jerry had called the newspaper ten days before. In the autumn of 2006 a story in the paper was written about the settlement of the tumultuous legacy of a wealthy businessman from Bussum. This Alfred Winkler had died childless.
Jerry was urgently seeking information about the piece, so he made the Volkskrant attendant clearly. It was for him a matter of life.
One thing he felt very strongly: this could be the turning point of his life. The moment he said goodbye to his old life. From the streets houses, drugs and booze, his stepfather, and his old name. From now on he was known as Jerry Winkler. He was the son of Alfred Winkler from the article. That had to be.
In early 2010 Jerry called his father Johnnie. His second wife answered the telephone. "I have to ask," Jerry said to her. "Is Johnnie my father? I look nothing like him. I hear that all my life. I look like a Spaniard, and he was a Dutchman. "
"Johnnie is not there, but he'll explain everything later," said the woman. Johnnie called back later that day. "I must tell you something," he said. "You're right. I'm not your father. "
Jerry was from another man. But he diddn't know who his real father was.
Jerry's mother had never told anyone that her husband Johnnie was infertile when she became pregnant. The pregnancy was Johnnie a slap in his face, but he had not requested his marriage was already fragile.
Over three years later, in 1985, the inevitable happened: Jerry's parents divorced. His father left the family home in Diemen-Zuid, where the toddler Jerry Alfred- called Jerry -continued to live with his older brother Johnnie Junior and his mother .
Johnnie junior was named after his father, so much was clear. But why was Jerry's first name Alfred, the boys asked her. She said she was charmed by Alfred J. Kwak - the character from the musical by Herman's Hermits. That sounded even then as an unlikely story.
Jerry and Johnny had eight wonderful years in Diemen. They went to school, did well and played hours on the street. There was a playground and a football area for the door. Lange Frans and Baas B., who became the most famous rappers in Diemen would be their neighbor boys and friends.
But in 1990 they found out that their mother had a brain tumor. She was under the knife, survived the surgery but could not care for the boys. Jerry moved to his father and his new wife, and Johnnie junior was left alone in the house in Diemen-Zuid.
Eight years later his mother died. Jerry and Johnnie junior, who now had become a taxi driver, found her dead one morning in an assisted living in Diemen.
Jerry ran away from home on his 14th, to never return. It was the beginning of a long tour of boarding schools, shelters, homeless families and guest houses throughout the Netherlands. For twelve years he was everywhere and nowhere. Miraculously, he stayed out of the hands of the police. He used drugs, was dealing and wandered.
In 2009 Jerry broke his kneecap and half a year he could not move. He lived at the Salvation Army until his brother arranged an anti-squat house for him. He appealed to the ROC test, which proved that he could count well, and was also above average creativity. Gently he began to think about his future.
And now he had it again. Who was his father then? Why was there always lied to him? Why was the carpet under his feet each time pulled out? He had bought a bottle of whiskey, a few grams of coke, and lived in the days after the conversation with his father in the shit.
Then he found himself. So it would never work, he realized. To find answers, he had his head in order.
Jerrie diddn't remember much about the death of his mother. In the confused days after her death Jerry and his brother threw all her belongings out of the house. Jerry only had taken a silver lighter, whith the inscription "Techni Power". His mother was a secretary for the company in the time he was born.
Perhaps the company still existed, or would a former employee can help him - he fantasized.
And so Jerry on Sat afternoon at the computer, and he tapped in the random search terms into Google. The combination "Techni Power and Jerry" produced nothing, and other phrases that came up to him either.
Jerry decided to go for his first name, Alfred. He tapped "Techni Power and Alfred" in. And there appeared at the top of the list of search results, an article from the Times on events surrounding the legacy of Techni Power Director Alfred Winkler.
Why Jerry had called the Times. Therefore he was now Wildschut cafe and watched a crumpled newspaper page, with a picture of a colossal villa in Bussum - the former home of Winkler, and also the former head of Technicolor Power. Poor birds, stood above the title-page article.
But not looked at Jerry. On the newspaper page was a black and white photograph of a man an actor who disappeared from a 50s movie. The man was sitting on a boat, with a wife and a child. It was Alfred Winkler.
Handsome man, Jerry said. After ten minutes he said nothing. He thought of the years he had lived on the streets. To the filthy houses, where he had slept - if not in the park or under a bridge considered. In the pensions he had survived by being the first of these bums like him from his bed. So it worked.
After ten minutes staring at the newspaper page Jerry burst loose. How was it? People still lived who could tell him more about Alfred Winkler? What had happened? There were more photos of his father? Did he have brothers or sisters?
Four months after his first meeting with the reporter of the newspaper, sat in Café Wildschut Jerry again. He was tophumeur. He had a short-sleeved shirt so that everyone could see his impressive collection of tattoos. Look at me Wildschut, he thought. Look at me, decent people. If only they knew what was going on.
But before he would make fun of the blonde bombshell in front of him on his way to the cafe, Jerry had to handle something. He had to show that his feelings had been right. In his bag he had a document from the Academic Hospital in Leiden, which he had recently picked up at the law firm Vink & Partners, opposite the Rijksmuseum.
It was a kinship report of the Forensic Laboratory for DNA testing from August 2, 2010, with the following conclusion:
"Based on the 17 so-called autosomal DNA markers is more than 1 million times more likely that the biological child of AK82 AW36, than any other man. In other words, it is more than 99.9999% sure that mr. A. F. Winkler, born. Date: 07/27/1936, the biological father of Jerry Alfred January at. Date: 04/07/1982 "
Jerry had in his search for his father approached anyone who could tell him anything about his father. The best friend of his mother, but even they could not clarify it. No, his mother had never told her of an affair with her boss. And she did not know that Jerry's father Johnnie was sterile.
Jerry had also spoken with the people who four years before had sought publicity about the legacy of his father. He had seen the stepdaughter of Winkler (see box below on this page), and the people who had tried to help her history with Alfred Winkler above table.
He knew much more, but he was not there yet. Therefore he had a good day at the law firm rang Vink & Partners, which is housed in a large office building on the Museumplein in Amsterdam. Since the tax and legal advisers working on the foundations which his father had failed millions, he knew. He first spent one hour around the corner to gather courage, and when he felt strong enough, he had rung.
In the reception room of the historic building he had told the secretary said he wanted to talk Klaus Vink, the eponym of the office. Finch had to speak to him briefly and asked his phone number.
A week later he called and he was returned to the office. Since he had a conversation with Klaus Vink's history was revealed. And he told who he thought he is. Jerry also had a childhood photograph of Alfred Winkler shown.
Finch had never heard such a story. But he diddn't found it not credible. And what looked like Jerry on the young Alfred in the picture. So he decided, in consultation with his colleague who represented the heritage foundation, a DNA test to apply.
Since then, Jerry lives in the world upside down. He may Klaus Vink on an apartment and apply it to the skybox at the Arena, where the lawyer is chairman of the Business Club Ajax. And he is talking about how to proceed with the inheritance. He expects that he will receive money, he says, but not now and not in one go.
And besides: it's not about the millions. He wanted to know his origins, and his biological father. That he succeeded. He is the Crumb of 2010. He is the protagonist in a modern fairy tale.
He does lose a thing. He knows only too well that in all those years on the streets people hurt. Yes, he has made wrong decisions. He lied, he cheated and he gehosseld. He did not know who he was when he did so. He was not, he drank and he used.
But, that's all over. Not everything is good to talk, but with him it's fine. He wants to honestly say that everyone knows. He has respect for everyone who has helped him, and understand people who are angry with him.
He will do good things with the money from his father. Something for the homeless, something for his family. And he goes to college and start something for themselves. Thus, his father wanted.
Let me pay the ticket but said Jerry. I am the son of a millionaire.
DNA match with a tooth
Jerry Winkler (see story above) is not the only one who thought his father was Alfred Winkler. His stepsister Carla has for years taken into account that it was conceived by Winkler.
Carla was raised by Alfred Winkler, with whom her mother lived together and Winkler deathbed even got married. Partly for that reason they cared greatly to the legacy of the Bussum businessman.
Three years ago, Carla dug Winkler's body, who was buried in a spacious and well kept grave with her mother at the General Cemetery in Bussum. They wanted a DNA test performed to see if she was the daughter of the businessman, and thus would be entitled to have one million inheritance.
The excavation - exhumatie as officially called - has led to great controversy in Bussum. There was a special hearing and require approval of the mayor Bussum before Carla got permission to open grave.
Accompanied by a dentist and an official witness was the tombstone of the grave lifted and hoisted the coffin. Alfred Winkler had become a skeleton, but a stylish frame. The expensive suit in wich he was buried looked like it was purchased yesterday.
Winkler was a tooth pulled, and the coffin was closed again. The tooth was taken to University Hospital in Leiden put there and used to extract DNA material. In vain, for Carla. Alfred Winkler was not her father.
For Jerry was the history with his step sister more than a happy coincidence. The DNA samples from his father lay by the research they had carried out already stored in Leiden. He only needed a little saliva to represent the relationship testing.
Moreover, if she was not going to dig into her history, the story of Alfred Winkler never appeared in the newspaper and he had never known who his father was.
So this story is for Eliza and Mocienne (and others?) Mocienne who is still trying to proof that she is related to MJ. Question for MJ; Is it posibble that your mother saved your milk teeth in a "first teeth box"?
De verloren zoon van een miljonair
Volkskrant 04/11/10, 00:00
Jerry Winkler is de hoofdrolspeler in een modern sprookje: tot voor kort was hij een zwerver, aan de drank en drugs. Nu blijkt hij de enige zoon te zijn van een miljonair uit Bussum.
Het was in het voorjaar van 2010 in café Wildschut in Amsterdam-Zuid dat de 28-jarige Alfred Jan Jerry Winkler - die toen nog een andere achternaam had - voor het eerst van zijn leven een afbeelding van zijn vader zag. Het was niet eens een echte foto, maar een kopie van een krantenpagina uit de Volkskrant van vier jaar eerder.
Hij huilde.
Jerry had tien dagen daarvoor geëmotioneerd de krant gebeld. Er had in de herfst van 2006 een verhaal in de Volkskrant gestaan over de tumultueuze afwikkeling van de erfenis van een rijke zakenman uit Bussum, zei hij. Deze Alfred Winkler was kinderloos gestorven.
Jerry was dringend op zoek naar informatie over het stuk, zo maakte hij de Volkskrant-telefoniste duidelijk. Het was voor hem een zaak van levensbelang.
Eén ding voelde hij heel sterk: dit zou het draaipunt van zijn leven worden. Het moment dat hij afscheid nam van zijn oude bestaan. Van de straatpensions, de drugs en de drank, van zijn stiefvader, en van zijn oude achternaam. Vanaf nu heette hij Jerry Winkler. Hij was de enige zoon van de Alfred Winkler uit het artikel. Dat moest zo zijn.
Begin 2010 had Jerry zijn vader Johnnie, die hij al jaren niet meer zag, opgebeld. Diens tweede vrouw had opgenomen. 'Ik moet iets vragen', zei Jerry tegen haar. 'Is Johnnie mijn vader wel? Ik lijk in niets op hem. Dat hoor ik al mijn hele leven. Ik zie er uit als een Spanjaard, en hij als een Hollander.'
'Johnnie is er niet, maar hij zal je straks alles uitleggen', zei de vrouw. Later die dag belde Johnnie terug. 'Ik moet je iets vertellen,' zei hij. 'Je hebt gelijk. Ik ben je vader niet.' En hij gooide eruit wat hij al die jaren niet had willen zeggen.
Jerry was van een ander. Maar van wie, dat wist hij niet.
Jerry's moeder had nooit iemand verteld dat haar echtgenoot Johnnie onvruchtbaar was op het moment dat zij zwanger was geworden. De zwangerschap was voor Johnnie een slag in zijn gezicht, maar hij had niet doorgevraagd; zijn huwelijk was toch al broos.
Ruim drie jaar later, in 1985, gebeurde het onvermijdelijke: Jerry's ouders scheidden. Zijn vader verliet de eengezinswoning in Diemen-Zuid, waar de peuter Alfred Jan Jerry - roepnaam Jerry - samen met zijn acht jaar oudere broer Johnnie junior en zijn moeder bleef wonen.
Johnnie junior was vernoemd naar zijn vader, zo veel was duidelijk. Maar waarom was Jerry's eerste naam Alfred, vroegen de jongens haar. Ze vertelde dat ze gecharmeerd was van Alfred J. Kwak - het personage uit de musical van Herman van Veen. Dat klonk ook toen al als een onwaarschijnlijk verhaal.
Jerry en Johnnie kenden acht mooie jaren, in Diemen. Ze gingen naar school, hadden het goed en speelden uren op straat. Er was een speeltuin en een trapveldje voor de deur. Lange Frans en Baas B., die later de bekendste rappers uit Diemen zouden worden, waren hun buurjongens en voetbalvrienden.
Maar in 1990 sloeg het noodlot toe. Er werd bij hun moeder een hersentumor geconstateerd. Ze moest onder het mes, overleefde de operatie, maar kon niet meer voor de jongens zorgen. Jerry verhuisde naar zijn vader en diens nieuwe vrouw, en Johnnie junior bleef alleen achter in de woning in Diemen-Zuid.
Acht jaar later overleed zijn moeder. Jerry en Johnnie junior, die inmiddels taxichauffeur was geworden, troffen haar op een ochtend dood aan in een aanleunwoning in Diemen.
¿¿¿
Het boterde niet tussen de kleine Jerry en zijn vader Johnnie. Jerry liep op zijn 14de weg van huis, om er nooit meer terug te keren. Het was het begin van een lange tocht langs internaten, opvanghuizen, gastgezinnen en daklozenpensions door heel Nederland. Twaalf jaar lang was hij overal en nergens. Als door een wonder bleef hij uit de handen van de politie. Hij gebruikte, dealde en zwierf.
In 2009 brak Jerry zijn knieschijf en kon hij een half jaar geen kant op. Hij woonde bij het Leger des Heils totdat zijn broer een anti-kraakwoning voor hem regelde. Hij deed een beroepstest bij het ROC, waaruit bleek dat hij goed kon rekenen, en ook bovengemiddeld creatief was. Voorzichtig begon hij na te denken over zijn toekomst.
En nu had hij dit weer. Wie was zijn vader dan wel? Waarom was er altijd tegen hem gelogen? Waarom werd het tapijt elke keer onder zijn voeten weggetrokken? Hij had een fles whisky gekocht, een paar gram coke, en leefde in de dagen na het telefoongesprek met zijn vader in de shit.
Daarna vond hij zichzelf terug. Zo zou het nooit lukken, besefte hij. Om antwoorden te vinden, moest hij zijn hoofd op orde krijgen.
¿¿¿
Van het overlijden van zijn moeder wist Jerry weinig meer. In de warrige dagen na haar dood hadden Jerry en zijn broer het huis in Diemen kort en klein geslagen. Daarna hadden ze rigoureus opgeruimd. Papieren zeiden hen niets. Die hadden ze allemaal weggegooid, om te voorkomen dat de mensen die na hen kwamen ermee aan de haal zouden gaan. Het enige wat Jerry had meegenomen was een zilveren aansteker, waarop met blauwe letters Technipower stond. Dat was het bedrijf waar zijn moeder secretaresse was geweest toen hij werd geboren.
Misschien bestond het bedrijf nog, of zou een oud-medewerker hem kunnen helpen - fantaseerde hij.
En dus zat Jerry op een middag achter de computer, en tikte hij in het wilde weg zoektermen in bij Google. De combinatie 'Technipower en Jerry' leverde niets op, en de andere woordcombinaties die bij hem opkwamen evenmin.
Jerry besloot te gaan zoeken met zijn eerste naam, Alfred. Hij tikte 'Technipower en Alfred' in. En daar verscheen, boven aan de lijst van zoekresultaten, een artikel uit de Volkskrant over verwikkelingen rond de erfenis van Technipower-directeur Alfred Winkler.
Daarom had Jerry de Volkskrant gebeld. Daarom zat hij nu in café Wildschut en keek naar een verfrommelde krantenpagina, met daarop een foto van een kolosale villa in Bussum - de voormalige woning van Winkler, en tevens het oude hoofdkantoor van Technipower. Arme vogels, stond als titel boven het paginagrote artikel.
Maar daar keek Jerry niet naar. Op de krantenpagina stond ook een zwart-witfoto van een man, die op een acteur uit een jaren '50-film leek. De man zat op een boot, met een vrouw en een kind. Het was Alfred Winkler.
Knappe man, zei Jerry. Daarna zei hij tien minuten niets. Hij dacht aan de jaren dat hij op straat had geleefd. Aan de smerige pensions, waar hij had geslapen - als hij niet in het park of onder een brug overnachtte. In de pensions had hij overleefd door als eerste van al die zwervers zoals hij, uit zijn bed te komen. Zo werkte het.
Als hij voor 5 uur opstond, kon hij voor alle ranzige types uit douchen, en dan was hij ook op tijd om bij het ontbijt een paar plakjes broodbeleg mee te grissen. Deed ie dat niet, dan stond hij tussen hun viezigheid, zonder eten. Eenmaal buiten had Jerry twee doelen: drugs en drank. In een roes kon hij de rotzooi waarin hij leefde nog het beste aan.
Na tien minuten staren naar de krantenpagina barstte Jerry los. Hoe zat het dan? Leefden er nog mensen die hem meer konden vertellen over Alfred Winkler? Wat was er gebeurd? Waren er nog meer foto's van zijn vader? Had hij broers of zusters?
¿¿¿
Vier maanden na zijn eerste ontmoeting met de verslaggever van de krant, zat Jerry weer in café Wildschut. Hij was in tophumeur. Hij had een shirt met korte mouwen aan zodat iedereen zijn indrukwekkende verzameling tatoeages kon zien. Kijk maar naar me Wildschut, dacht hij. Kijk maar naar me, nette mensen. Ze moesten eens weten wat er speelde. Mocht hij ook een keer?
Maar voordat hij pret zou gaan maken met de blonde stoot die voor hem op weg was naar het café, moest Jerry iets afhandelen. Hij moest en zou laten zien dat zijn voorgevoel juist was geweest. In zijn tas had hij een document van het Academisch Ziekenhuis in Leiden, dat hij kort daarvoor had opgehaald bij het advocatenkantoor Vink & Partners, recht tegenover het Rijksmuseum.
Het was een verwantschapsrapport van het Forensisch Laboratorium voor DNA-onderzoek, van 2 augustus 2010, met de volgende conclusie:
'Op grond van de 17 zogenaamde autosomale DNA-kenmerken is het meer dan 1 miljoen keer waarschijnlijker dat AK82 het biologisch kind is van AW36, dan van een willekeurige andere man. Anders gezegd, het is voor meer dan 99,9999% zeker dat dhr. A. F. Winkler, geb. datum: 27-7-1936, de biologische vader is van Alfred Jan Jerry, geb. datum: 4-7-1982'
¿¿¿
Jerry had in zijn zoektocht naar zijn vader iedereen benaderd die hem iets zou kunnen vertellen over zijn vader. Ook de beste vriendin van zijn moeder, maar zelfs zij kon hem geen duidelijkheid verschaffen. Nee, zijn moeder had haar nooit verteld van een affaire met haar baas. En ze wist ook niet dat Jerry's vader Johnnie onvruchtbaar was.
Ook had Jerry gesproken met de personen die vier jaar daarvoor de publiciteit hadden gezocht over de nalatenschap van zijn vader. Hij had de stiefdochter van Winkler gezien (zie kader onder op deze pagina), en de mensen die haar hadden proberen te helpen om haar geschiedenis met Alfred Winkler boven tafel te krijgen.
Hij wist nu veel meer, maar hij was er nog niet. Daarom had hij op een goede dag aangebeld bij het advocatenkantoor Vink & Partners, dat huisde in een grote kantoorvilla aan het Museumplein in Amsterdam. Daar werkten de fiscale en juridische adviseurs van de stichtingen waaraan zijn vader miljoenen had nagelaten, wist hij. Hij had eerst een uur om de hoek gezeten, om moed te verzamelen, en toen hij zich sterk genoeg voelde, had hij aangebeld.
In de ontvangstruimte van het monumentale pand had hij tegen de secretaresse gezegd dat hij Klaus Vink wilde spreken, de naamgever van het kantoor. Vink had hem kort te woord gestaan, en zijn telefoonnummer gevraagd.
Een week later werd hij gebeld, en was hij teruggegaan naar het kantoor. Daar had hij in een gesprek met Klaus Vink zijn geschiedenis uit de doeken gedaan. En vertelde hij wie hij dacht te zijn. Jerry had ook een jeugdfoto van Alfred Winkler laten zien.
Vink had nog nooit zo'n verhaal gehoord. Maar ongeloofwaardig vond hij het niet. En wat leek Jerry op de jonge Alfred op de foto. Dus besloot hij, in overleg met zijn kantoorgenoten die de erfenisstichting vertegenwoordigden, een DNA-test aan te vragen.
¿¿¿
Sindsdien leeft Jerry in de omgekeerde wereld. Hij mag van Klaus Vink op een appartement passen en mee naar de skybox in de Arena, waar de advocaat voorzitter is van de Ajax Business Club. En hij is in gesprek over hoe het verder moet met de erfenis. Hij verwacht dat hij uiteindelijk geld krijgt, zegt hij, maar niet nu al en niet in één keer.
En trouwens: het gaat niet om de miljoenen. Hij wilde zijn afkomst weten, en zijn biologische vader. Dat is hem gelukt. Hij is de Kruimeltje van 2010. Hij is de hoofdrolspeler in een modern sprookje.
Hij wil nog één ding kwijt. Hij weet maar al te goed dat hij in al die jaren op straat mensen pijn heeft gedaan. Ja, hij heeft verkeerde beslissingen genomen. Hij heeft gelogen, hij heeft bedrogen en hij heeft gehosseld. Hij wist niet wie hij was toen hij zo deed. Hij was niet echt, hij dronk en hij gebruikte.
Maar, dat is allemaal voorbij. Niet alles is goed te praten, maar met hem is het goed gekomen. Hij wil het eerlijk zeggen zodat iedereen het weet. Hij heeft respect voor iedereen die hem heeft geholpen, en begrip voor mensen die boos op hem zijn.
Hij zal goeie dingen doen met het geld van zijn vader. Iets voor daklozen, iets voor zijn familie. En hij gaat studeren, en iets voor zichzelf beginnen. Zo moet zijn vader het gewild hebben.
Laat mij het bonnetje maar betalen, zei Jerry. Ik ben de zoon van een miljonair.
DNA-match dankzij een opgegraven tand
Jerry Winkler (zie verhaal hierboven) is niet de enige die dacht dat Alfred Winkler zijn vader was. Ook zijn stiefzus Carla heeft er jaren lang rekening mee gehouden dat zij was verwekt door Winkler.
Carla werd opgevoed door Alfred Winkler, met wie haar moeder samenwoonde en op Winklers sterfbed zelfs in het huwelijk trad. Onder meer om die reden bekommerde zij zich sterk om de erfenis van de Bussumse zakenman.
Drie jaar geleden liet Carla het lichaam van Winkler, die in één ruim en goed onderhouden graf met haar moeder begraven ligt op de Algemene Begraafplaats in Bussum, opgraven. Zij wilde een DNA-test laten uitvoeren om te zien of zij de dochter was van de zakenman, en daarmee recht zou hebben op zijn miljoenenerfenis.
De opgraving - exhumatie zoals die officieel heet - leidde tot grote ophef in Bussum. Er was een speciale hoorzitting nodig en instemming van de Bussumse burgemeester voordat Carla toestemming kreeg om het graf te openen.
Begeleid door een tandarts en een officiële getuige werd de grafsteen van het graf getild, en de kist opgetakeld. Alfred Winkler was een geraamte geworden, maar wel een stijlvol geraamte. Het dure pak waarin hij was begraven zag eruit alsof het gisteren was gekocht.
Van Winkler werd een tand getrokken, waarna de kist weer werd gesloten. De tand werd naar het Academisch Ziekenhuis in Leiden gebracht, en gebruikt om daar DNA-materiaal uit te halen. Tevergeefs, voor Carla. Alfred Winkler bleek niet haar vader te zijn.
Voor Jerry was de geschiedenis met zijn stiefzuster een meer dan gelukkig toeval. Het DNA-materiaal van zijn vader lag door het onderzoek dat zij had laten uitvoeren al opgeslagen in Leiden. Hij hoefde slechts een stukje wangslijmvlies af te staan voor het verwantschapsonderzoek.
Bovendien: als zij niet was gaan graven in haar geschiedenis, dan was het verhaal van Alfred Winkler nooit in de krant verschenen en had hij nooit geweten wie zijn vader was.
-
I never have TS disqualified because until this day I have no arguments to do so.
I do not believe in a conspiracy to assassinate SONY Michael, and that conspiracy involving the family, artists to make a few people believe that Michael is still alive, as I have said on more than one occasion that my problem with TS is not numerology, and the parallels between the "death" of Elvis and Michael, Eliza is the case, I have the same doubts and confusion. It is scientifically proved that DNA is perfect proportions for Eliza Elvis, but legally this case will not have to have a favorable decision to Eliza for the inconsistencies, as is known in the chain of custody and that is a legal fact and tested, also graphology tests are inconclusive, see the thread regarding graphology Serenitys_Dream.
I see no reason why TS can not offer an explanation on the case of Eliza, I do not believe me in an arrogant way, I understand that TS is therefore insisted all this.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=16038 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=16038)
-
*Mo* wrote:
Although I know upfront that my thoughts are most likely not going to be appreciated and shut down I decided to post them anyway. Do whatever you want to do with them.
Yesterday I already pointed out to multicontextual research and countless events which hold numerology, asking if this means that all these events are planned.
Here's a nice blog to read, posted on July 3, 2009:
http://pigs-in-the-parlor.blogspot.com/ (http://pigs-in-the-parlor.blogspot.com/) ... ology.html
In this blog numerology is already addressed, but note that this blog was posted 4 days before TMZ came up with the article "Michael Jackson -- #7".
As you can see there are a whole bunch of more synchronicities, but TS never mentioned these. Had he mentioned these as well, people simply wouldn't have understood what the heck he was talking about.
Also, it's significant that on June 25 2009 THREE celebrities reportedly died - Michael Jackson, Farrah Fawcett and Ed McMahon. In multicontextual research there's a lot connecting these three deaths, so if this is all planned by MJ then he knew upfront that these people would die on June 25 2009..? On June 28 Billy Mays died. Again a lot of synchronicities with the deaths of MJ and Farrah Fawcett. MJ knew that upfront also, right?
Here's a link to read up on the synchronicities of these deaths:
http://www.synchromysticismforum.com/vi (http://www.synchromysticismforum.com/vi) ... ?f=5&t=930
I think this is very interesting, thanks for posting
-
Jesse, get out of the closet and face the world :evil:
-
origine of the beLIEver thing
(http://www.inter-activities.com/Eric_SERRA/Arthur_Vengeance_Maltazard_Cirque_Soleil_Adele_Blanc_Sec/criss_angel_believe.jpg)
Luxor Hotel with Criss Angel beLIEve courtesy of Google Maps:
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2r6fsz5.jpg)
Luxor Hotel on google maps with Criss Angel beLIEve (http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Luxor+Las+Vegas&sll=-37.562107,143.856149&sspn=0.557362,0.884399&ie=UTF8&hq=Luxor&hnear=Las+Vegas,+Clark,+Nevada,+United+States&ll=36.09369,-115.177231&spn=0,0.021994&z=16&layer=c&cbll=36.093697,-115.173154&panoid=ZRuLaRc_TmMp8OgowalFIw&cbp=12,332.21,,0,-4.39)
Michael In Las Vegas: http://blogs.lasvegasmagazine.com/Vegas ... r-british/ (http://blogs.lasvegasmagazine.com/VegasLuxeLife/michael-jackson-to-come-out-of-hiding-from-vegas-hotel-for-british/)
Oh, to have been a fly on the wall this night... interesting article.. have a read..
Especially the part about the children... ;)
(http://blogs.lasvegasmagazine.com/VegasLuxeLife/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/l-r-2-kenny-ortega-michael-and-simon-fuller-c_o-tvt.JPG)
Kenny, Michael, and Simon Fuller in Las Vegas during a meeting on how to get MJ back his superstardom.. 8-)
About Simon Fuller: LMP is listed as an associated act on wikipedia.. and in March 2005, Fuller sold 19 Entertainment to CKX, Inc. in a cash and stock deal worth over $200 million. 19 Entertainment employs 180 people based in London, LA, New York, Nashville, and in Europe and delivered a profit of $92 million into the parent company during 2008. Fuller remained in his role as Chief Executive of 19 and became a director of CKX, a position which gave him creative control over all CKX's assets including the Elvis Presley Estate"
Back to the beLIEve - I do agree this Criss Angel poster is significant, but in my memory (and I may be wrong) 'beLIEvers' started before this posters connection was fully realised on the ill-fated original MJHD around July 09.. Once this poster was connected to other theories - such as the white rabbit/alice in wonderland, red curtain / O2 press conference and most importantly Michael's love of magic and his time spent at the Luxor in 2008 - that is when people began using the beLIEvers tag more frequently.. and having more faith in this being a hoax.
So you are right.. but perhaps beLIEve was fed to us in order for us to find this connection, and swallow the red pill...... or maybe it was the blue pill...
And, Souza, thank you for posting this thread. I absolutely loved reading the numerology involved. And now I would like to know what Simon Fuller knows.. ;)
-
Wow Souza, that was a very well put together post. Much time and thought into it, much appreciated! I see TS has re-directed to it too! Yes, I think we are in the violently apposed phase and early next year will be the reveal truth phase! I don't think bam will be on 11/30, but something big is a brewing!!! :shock: :o
-
I almost fear to tell that I agree with Souza without being labeled of a non thinking for herself person and being a blind follower of Souza...lol... okay stop the paranoia.... all I have to say is.... WAY TO GO SOUZA!
Okay I'm not gonna just say that :D For me TS has proven to be a legit informer. If people cannot see it that is fine but for me the numerology (and other things of course) is a proof. I don't know but my mind acknowledges it as a proof. And being a legit informer means that you know things about the hoax that others like us cannot know, cannot find by themselves. So we need some guidance in all this and this is what TS has given us. Don't tell me that people are supra intelligent and that they can figure things out by themselves with some clues and hints here and there without at least the help of the very person who created that hoax. No I'm not saying that TS is Michael but at least a genuine informer.
In the end we make the last decision and we're responsible of it. We cannot have everything right, this is just not possible. If it happens that I'm wrong I'm okay with that I have no problem to admit to have been wrong but sometimes we have to make a choice and take a decision. Bearing this in mind I think that some trust is not forbidden. This is how I feel, I know it goes against the motto here but I can't help it I trust TS. BUT.... it does not mean that it prevents me to use my little brain... when you trust someone it also means that you are more willing to listen to what that person has to say but always using your common sense. At this point I don't need more clues to know that Michael is alive, I have reached certainty since a while now and I see things only from this perspective. I know that some people need tons of clues and fall in the doubt again and again repeatedly, others want hard evidence or would only believe if they came to see Michael in flesh and bones but has it happened the whole matter would have been terminated.... really.
Generally people who have opposed TS have talked a lot but have not demonstrated anything. So to all those who oppose TS and say that he is maybe misleading us I just want to tell them that it is time now to prove it. But well it's not possible lol.
... blessings to all and Keep the faith! The truth is destined to prevail no matter what!! God bless you TS.
-
I read one more time TS's post TiAI update # 6: Michael & Elvis, Double-bam This Summer?!? and I see some contradictions
TS wrote: After 33 years of question and debate over whether Elvis Presley faked his death: we now have the strongest scientific proofs that he really did fake his death—and in fact, he is still alive to this very day!!!!!!!! And this is not based on some lunatic fantasy whims, that Elvis is living on a paradise island; no, this is documented evidence which is so strong, that it’s the basis for a legal case which is already in court. And to top it all off: there’s a good chance that this will all be hitting the news this summer!
This case law is not going to have to decide for Eliza for the quantity of inconsistencies.
Even now, Elvis/Jesse is not interested in the spotlight; he wants to remain in privacy. At least for Elvis, the concept of “bam” refers to the final court ruling on Eliza’s case, and/or the media reporting that he is still alive (rather than Elvis himself performing again, or even being seen by the public).
If Elvis and Jesse wants to stay in private, that want the attention of the media reporting that he is alive, that would be a worldwide news and there would be thousands of journalists doing a hunts to find the whereabouts of Elvis.
Well and if you ask me why I did not realize this before, the answer would be, not! read! with attention
Anyhow there does not stay another option that to expect to see since all that finishes.
-
Gema wrote:
Jesse, get out of the closet and face the world
:lol: :lol: :lol:
-
In a way I see value in the two perspectives on TS being a close informer/or MJ himself, or as some think as someone misleading us, because it keeps always evaluating, thinking for ourselves,and never resting on our laurels. It brings out the best in our beLIEvers' minds here such as Souza. I know it's driving people crazy, but we wouldn't be here if this was all simple. Withholding just enough information is the art behind anything stimulating to our brains.
-
I don't think bam will be on 11/30, but something big is a brewing!!! :shock: :o
Agreed!
-
Wasn´t the Eliza case going to be on November 11?
-
Wasn´t the Eliza case going to be on November 11?
No, a conference on 14 December..
-
Wasn´t the Eliza case going to be on November 11?
Typo error: November 30 I wanted to say. Got mixed up.
-
Gema wrote:
Gema wrote:
Wasn´t the Eliza case going to be on November 11?
Typo error: November 30 I wanted to say. Got mixed up.
If the conference is 30 November, is supposed to be judged and meet the lawyers to see the evidence and the steps to follow to decide the date of trial.
-
Gema wrote:
Gema wrote:
Wasn´t the Eliza case going to be on November 11?
Typo error: November 30 I wanted to say. Got mixed up.
If the conference is 30 November, is supposed to be judged and meet the lawyers to see the evidence and the steps to follow to decide the date of trial.
Thanks!
-
Gema wrote:
Gema wrote:
Wasn´t the Eliza case going to be on November 11?
Typo error: November 30 I wanted to say. Got mixed up.
If the conference is 30 November, is supposed to be judged and meet the lawyers to see the evidence and the steps to follow to decide the date of trial.
Thanks!
The conference was delayed on Dec, 14th
-
Same date than Prince ones?
-
The Song Much too soon is going to be released on December 14th as well.
-
The Song Much too soon is going to be released on December 14th as well.
So is P.Diddy's new album "Last Train To Paris", I have always thought his tweets and blogs were interesting.
-
I have no idea who P.Diddy is. I need to do some goggleing
-
P.Diddy aka Puff Daddy aka Sean "Puffy" Combs the rapper
(http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/2008/02/01-07/diddy-vote-sean-john-puffy-rap-hip-hop.jpg)
-
Thanks, I found a video on youtube. A cover of Police, Missing you.
-
Okay ....
... just back to the original topic. Numerology, that is.
Without judging anyone I`d just like to recommend to educate yourselves on statistics.
Like Walter Krämer`s books "Statistik verstehen", "So überzeugt man mit Statistik" and "So lügt man mit Statistik" (sorry these are only in german but I am certain there are similar publications in other languages out there as well).
You will learn that you can "prove" almost everything by "calculation" of numbers.
Remember, there are only eight numbers in total (1-9).
And how many ways to calculate?
- to add
- to subtract
- to multiply
- to divide
- to make a checksum
these are five already (remember!)
AND to look for BIBLE QUOTATIONS (there`s no way NOT to fin d something matching).
AND to combine each of them to each other ....
Therefore you have got seven possibilities to deal with every date and number (out of hundreds you`ll find in every person`s life).
So how sigfnificant are T.S.`s "findings"?
And, sorry, the BURDEN OF PROOF is incumbent on the one who STATES/CLAIMES something, not on the one who doubts.
P:S: T.S. should turn an honest penny at me .... for fair meta-level-debunking ...
-
Remember, there are only eight numbers in total (1-9).
That is if we were only getting single-digit numbers. But we also have 2-, 3- and 4-digit numbers (77, 99, 111, 777, 999, 1998 etc.) so that makes the odds that a number is just a coincidence a lot smaller.
-
Aren`t all numbers composed of to these 8 digits?
And aren`t - most often scaled down :) - two-digit-figures are just more likely to match anything?
You bet ....
-
Aren`t all numbers composed of to these 8 digits?
And aren`t - most often scaled down :) - two-digit-figures are just more likely to match anything?
You bet ....
You don't get what I mean, I think. The numbers clearly used in this hoax are not just single-digit numbers. Made out of the 10 exsisting ones, but the chance that a 2-digit number is 77 is just 1% (1 out of 100: 00-99). The chance that a 3-digit number is 777 is only 0.1% (1 out of 1,000; 000-999) etc. When more of these numbers come up and you have to calculate the chance that it is all just coincidence, you have to multiply them, which makes the chance even smaller, like I pointed out with my calculations.
As for the Bible quotes: I agree that you can find a fitting one for every date, but I don't think it was TS that showed the link between dates and Bible scriptures, but SeeingClues.
-
I must be really stupid or something :oops:
Surely there are 9 digits not 8?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
-
I must be really stupid or something :oops:
Surely there are 9 digits not 8?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
There are 10: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 & 9
-
I appreciate your efforts, Souza, indeed! And your quick - prima facie academic elaborated? - response. But still, I am not convinced.
What is 777 for example (without calculation) and what`s important about it?
If I`d take any 7 or 70 or 77 or 770 or 777 as a presumption of anything like
- distance of days between one day and another or
- date`s sum, checksum, factor or any other effect
- amounts or proportion or percentage of money or
- whatsoever
it wouldn`t be too hard to find matching points in ---- no matter what.
-
I must be really stupid or something :oops:
Surely there are 9 digits not 8?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
Of course you are right --- 9 digits (my typo, sorry :) ).
-
I appreciate your efforts, Souza, indeed! And your quick - prima facie academic elaborated? - response. But still, I am not convinced.
What is 777 for example (without calculation) and what`s important about it?
If I`d take any 7 or 70 or 77 or 770 or 777 as a presumption of anything like
- distance of days between one day and another or
- date`s sum, checksum, factor or any other effect
- amounts or proportion or percentage of money or
- whatsoever
it wouldn`t be too hard to find matching points in ---- no matter what.
Point is that Mike himself promoted the numbers himself and now the numbers as in time between dates, length of the TII movie etc. are used in the hoax. If he never would have promoted the numbers himself, it would indeed have meant nothing, but he did.
-
I appreciate your efforts, Souza, indeed! And your quick - prima facie academic elaborated? - response. But still, I am not convinced.
What is 777 for example (without calculation) and what`s important about it?
If I`d take any 7 or 70 or 77 or 770 or 777 as a presumption of anything like
- distance of days between one day and another or
- date`s sum, checksum, factor or any other effect
- amounts or proportion or percentage of money or
- whatsoever
it wouldn`t be too hard to find matching points in ---- no matter what.
Point is that Mike himself promoted the numbers himself and now the numbers as in time between dates, length of the TII movie etc. are used in the hoax. If he never would have promoted the numbers himself, it would indeed have meant nothing, but he did.
:D love that part,.
-
Puff » wrote:
Gema wrote:
paula-c wrote:
Gema wrote:
Gema wrote:
Wasn´t the Eliza case going to be on November 11?
Typo error: November 30 I wanted to say. Got mixed up.
If the conference is 30 November, is supposed to be judged and meet the lawyers to see the evidence and the steps to follow to decide the date of trial.
Thanks!
Serenitys_Dream » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:55 pm
Gema wrote:
No server found to me.
@serenity, is that what you get?
And this :?:
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=15181 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=15181)
-
Puff » wrote:
Gema wrote:
paula-c wrote:
Gema wrote:
Gema wrote:
Wasn´t the Eliza case going to be on November 11?
Typo error: November 30 I wanted to say. Got mixed up.
If the conference is 30 November, is supposed to be judged and meet the lawyers to see the evidence and the steps to follow to decide the date of trial.
Thanks!
Serenitys_Dream » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:55 pm
Gema wrote:
No server found to me.
@serenity, is that what you get?
And this :?:
http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 72&t=15181 (http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=15181)
http://chancerydata.shelbycountytn.gov/pls/chweb/ck_public_qry_doct.cp_dktrpt_frames?backto=P&case_id=CH-09-1696&begin_date=&end_date=
The Eliza court case was rescheduled on November 10th and is now taking place on December 14th as per the above court details (scroll to the end of the page). (The original date was November 30th)
With L.O.V.E
-
Thanks TheRunningGirl
-
TS never convinced me Mike was alive, I knew that way before TS ever posted. TS only made me think on a different level and that has helped me the past year in forming my opinion on everything in this world, not just this hoax. I became a wiser person and I learned a bunch about myself.
This is what I feel too, so thank you TS, really. No matter who you are, all what you're doing is so interesting.
This adventure is enrichen me so much: I've been woken up by Michael long time ago, and now thanks to you I'm aware of NWO, and related.
I follow you, but always thinking 4 myself. Knowledge is so important, ignorance is surrender.
Even if I fear the cospiracy theory is the most plausible for me, I DO NOT surrender. I'm collecting information, I consider them, I study them... until the truth will come out.
I'm here to search for the truth, to investigate. I'm suffering so much, I pray Mike is alive and well...and I don't want anyone to hurt him anymore...that's what I want...
God bless you all, and once more, thank you TS.
-
TS never convinced me Mike was alive, I knew that way before TS ever posted. TS only made me think on a different level and that has helped me the past year in forming my opinion on everything in this world, not just this hoax. I became a wiser person and I learned a bunch about myself.
This is what I feel too, so thank you TS, really. No matter who you are, all what you're doing is so interesting.
This adventure is enrichen me so much: I've been woken up by Michael long time ago, and now thanks to you I'm aware of NWO, and related.
I follow you, but always thinking 4 myself. Knowledge is so important, ignorance is surrender.
Even if I fear the cospiracy theory is the most plausible for me, I DO NOT surrender. I'm collecting information, I consider them, I study them... until the truth will come out.
I'm here to search for the truth, to investigate. I'm suffering so much, I pray Mike is alive and well...and I don't want anyone to hurt him anymore...that's what I want...
God bless you all, and once more, thank you TS.
same here... I'm a little sad this days, but i will be fine... god bless you all!
at least we are a little bit closer every day... love you all!
and now we have the wikileaks... :roll:
-
And about Michael's numerology, may I add this spaceship picture which directly points to the "death" date. :D
25+06+2009=2040
(http://i54.tinypic.com/ka5rnq.jpg)
O.M.G. :shock:
Coincidence is SO BIG....
** And piece by piece, by piece, Michael is revealed **
-
Postby fordtocarr » Tue May 03, 2011 1:17 pm
Well, a lot of intelligent talk on here now! :)
But, I do have to defend us with the opinion of TS, in that...I AM NOT WANTING TO BE SPOON FED.
That is nuts to me. He came into our investigating forum, a place us who love Michael and don't believe he died, came to congregate and commiserated and try to figure out and affirm he is alive. He came in authoritative. Even if he did not say "listen to me, I KNOW"..the implication is THERE!.
Think how many others have come in and out of here and we want to know how they feel they have the KNOW. How those ones are getting the info they claim. PROVE YOURSELF. Back up what you say. But, with TS, there is so much "power" implied it's as though it's almost sacrilegious to even ask or doubt him. People get all crazy it you want proof of how he knows. LOOK at all the previous posts!!
I'm just saying, don't spoon feed me then. Don't offer anything--unless you can back it up!! By saying you "get to move to the next level" implies that we are correct on something!! If we are...he should be able to back up HOW HE KNOWS THAT. Seriously. If it were someone else...ME for instance, saying "no...that's NOT correct". "You can't move on, TS is not right". You would tell me how I know. Show proof. But, we take it that it's facts that we reach now. And, seriously, what are these facts?
Here, I'm NOT saying that I don't believe TS is in the know. I actually think he knows/or simply has a great since of reasoning. BUT...I also think he needs to qualify HOW and WHY. We demand as much of anyone else and ourselves. If you claim or act as though you lead TO answers, then respond as THOUGH you know which results are correct, you need so show HOW you can prove it.
This is a HUGE point in our unity. This is a HUGE MAP in the roads we take on this entire investigating process. If someone comes in here offering you a wrong turn would you want to know why you should deviate from the path you are taking or would you just go and perhaps waste you time and never get where you are going? NO. You would not. You may never gain anything.
This is what I'm saying. Even if I never get another morsel of infor, if I DO, I want to KNOW I have a reliable source.
ISN'T THIS WHAT MICHAEL WAS ABOUT??? He talked and sang about not reading/believing all you hear or read...and here we are. Putting faith and being lead without proof. ANY iota of proof to be lead would be sufficient. It don't matter that SOME of TS's facts have proven...some have not.
It's simple. We want everyone to back up what they say. Especially someone who tells us WE ARE CORRECT!!! If you can say THAT you are saying you KNOW. If you know, say...do something to let us know you DO. Like everyone else.
Just copied this here to leave TS's thread for those willing to be active on that new level.
fordtocarr, i agree with everything you say especially the highlighted parts.
if TS doesn't answer i guess the best way to deal with is just go with your intuition.
It's funny how asking "how do you know we've made progress and where?" means asking to be spoon fed. I thought NOT asking and swallowing everything is being given means spoonfeeding.
Being an analytical mind and raising questions to everything we read is what we are adviced in the first place by the very man we are here for.
-
Damn - just took so long composing a post that I had to log-in again and lost it all!
So I was going to say that this is not a TS bashing post, but just some observations and questions. I've posted here so's not to go off topic or clutter up other threads, although unfortunately I don't expect TS will read it tucked away here!
This is an old quote that brings up a couple of interesting points that seem relevant to many of the discussions around at the moment. It comes from TIAI revealed Part 6:
viewtopic.php?f=125&t=1929#p27570 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=125&t=1929#p27570)
Then what about the MJ “Return” to public view, when will that be? Well, the sad thing is that potentially he could’ve returned at Halloween; but we were not ready. We did not understand the NWO conspiracy aspect of the hoax, or the seriousness of it; in fact, the old MJHD was forbidding discussion on this subject! And just a few days later, it went down and was out for about a week. We simply were not ready for MJ to return yet; if he had, in all the excitement, people would’ve had little or no interest in studying into the NWO aspects of the hoax.
Since people were not ready for the MJ return at Halloween: immediately after the TII movie was released, TIAI was set up. The purpose of TIAI was (and still is) to give MJ fans, and especially hoax believers, a better understanding and bigger picture of the hoax and the reasons for it; this in turn would help prepare the way for the MJ “Return”!
[/b]
Bear in mind TS wrote this in December 2009! I wonder how relevant these old posts still are.
Did MJ really expect everyone who was going to 'get it' to have 'got it' in just 4 months? (I was still in accepting he was dead mode at this time, by the way!)
Was TS saying that MJ's return depends on us, and our understanding of his hoax?
The quote above implies that it's incorrect to say, as many do, that it's MJ's hoax, not ours. I'd say it very definitely is ours, we are a part of it, if his return depends on us. It's a safety net for him, and also an escape clause - if he changes his mind and decides not to come back then it's our own fault! I'm not sure how I feel about this! I've always thought we were just innocent bystanders - maybe we're not.
So if we do have influence, and we want to see MJ back, shouldn't we be taking TS's threads with open-minds and a willingness to further our understanding, regardless of any doubts or frustrations we may have with him? (Even trolls and troublemakers have come here with interesting ideas, worthy of consideration!)
I feel sorry for TS! He takes a lot of flack, but I think he is sympathetic to our frustrations even though he doesn't/cannot give explanations.
That was a shortened version of what I wanted to say!
I shall carry on watching and reading.
-
Was TS saying that MJ's return depends on us, and our understanding of his hoax?
Yes,
and this theory makes no sense for the FBI theory. FBi's activity is not the global spiritual awakening. FBI can be at most relate to a sting operation but even in this case what TS said makes no sense. It's one or another.
When was he right? Then or now?
Bear in mind TS wrote this in December 2009! I wonder how relevant these old posts still are.
His knowledge on the reason of the hoax must be still relevant. The reason of a hoax is before a hoax. Is it a spiritual awakening or is it a cold FBI operation? If MJ's return depends on us , how can we influence a sting operation? So there's got to be one reason or another, both are nonsense.
I feel sorry for TS! He takes a lot of flack, but I think he is sympathetic to our frustrations even though he doesn't/cannot give explanations.
No one forces us to read , but no one forces him to write also. If i do feel sorry for him, i feel sorry for members too.
-
Was TS saying that MJ's return depends on us, and our understanding of his hoax?
Yes,
and this theory makes no sense for the FBI theory. FBi's activity is not the global spiritual awakening. FBI can be at most relate to a sting operation but even in this case what TS said makes no sense. It's one or another.
When was he right? Then or now?
Bear in mind TS wrote this in December 2009! I wonder how relevant these old posts still are.
His knowledge on the reason of the hoax must be still relevant. The reason of a hoax is before a hoax. Is it a spiritual awakening or is it a cold FBI operation? If MJ's return depends on us , how can we influence a sting operation? So there's got to be one reason or another, both are nonsense.
@heartphantom, I agree it is hard to see how these things can be combined, but TS said this, if it helps at all!
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=375#p314370 (http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&start=375#p314370)
"Finally: is this hoax a prank, or a Thriller II reality movie, or an ARG, or a sting operation, or a Vendetta, or an NWO/EOW warning, or a wake-up call to the gullible public (don't believe everything in the media), etc--which is it? And the answer is: all of the above! It is something that people have never seen before, at least not the combination of these things and on this scale."
-
It may be very well be any of the ones said above. Besides brainwash TS. Hey, come on ---- It`ll be up to us if - and when and how - MJ comes back? We have to deserve it?
Plleeeeeaaaasse -..... WHO is WHAT expecting from you (to do)??? Be careful! God bless.
-
WHO is WHAT expecting from you (to do)??? Be careful! God bless.
I don't understand what you mean here. Could you elaborate a bit?
-
Yes, could you please detail a little?
-
finally: is this hoax a prank, or a Thriller II reality movie, or an ARG, or a sting operation, or a Vendetta, or an NWO/EOW warning, or a wake-up call to the gullible public (don't believe everything in the media), etc--which is it? And the answer is: all of the above! It is something that people have never seen before, at least not the combination of these things and on this scale."
Curls, thank you for sharing.
And the answer is: all of the above!
That's exactly why i asked him: are you answers FACTS or ASSUMPTIONS?
I don't mind if they are opinions just don't assume the role of a knower. Because that's what Souza suggests, she told me in the chatroom "hey , i am not TS , i don't know everything". If that's not suggesting then what is?
If i say FBI is not in on hoax , i am answered no way, TS said this and that, i thought we agreed on that level etc. So the debate is locked for those who don't follow him. I am being told to debunk, debunk what. It's like i am telling someone to debunk that i am not Marie Sophie from France. It's not fair in a situation where our information is so poor, it's really a game and nothing more, tell a blind to make the puzzle. This is not a realistic investigation.
Instead of trying to debunk each other with no ending (because we don't know who's right or wrong anyway) we 'd better do the opposite and keep an eye on EVERY possibility. Maybe we'd have access to ideas we've never thought before.
-
Well, the burden of proof is always with the ones who claim a truth or anything. Therefore I don`t have to "debunk" TS (since there is no evidence ----). ;)
-
Ts isn't offering anything as far as theories, we are. TS refers to theories already in existence, and that goes for the FBI theory as well. TS also sometimes supports false theories to encourage their debunking. TS isn't uncovering the truth, we are.
-
Ts isn't offering anything as far as theories, we are. TS refers to theories already in existence, and that goes for the FBI theory as well. TS also sometimes supports false theories to encourage their debunking. TS isn't uncovering the truth, we are.
So, if TS never mentioned about the FBI and the Sting Operation we were going to find them out? I don't think so. We thought about the FBI possibility but never digged too much about it or never thought of the Sting Operation. These theories were not existed on the forum before TS told it to us. Like we never thought about the leaf pattern inside the ambulance. That one came from TS as well.
-
Instead of trying to debunk each other with no ending (because we don't know who's right or wrong anyway) we 'd better do the opposite and keep an eye on EVERY possibility.
Yup, very true! That's what I do. I have my own ideas about things, but they are only ideas, I have no proof, so I keep all the other theories filed away in little boxes in my brain, for future reference if needed!
-
Instead of trying to debunk each other with no ending (because we don't know who's right or wrong anyway) we 'd better do the opposite and keep an eye on EVERY possibility.
Yup, very true! That's what I do. I have my own ideas about things, but they are only ideas, I have no proof, so I keep all the other theories filed away in little boxes in my brain, for future reference if needed!
Right! Don`t allow any distraction to occupy your mind ... :-) Cognitive dissonance, that is what we should be aware of.
-
Ts isn't offering anything as far as theories, we are. TS refers to theories already in existence, and that goes for the FBI theory as well. TS also sometimes supports false theories to encourage their debunking. TS isn't uncovering the truth, we are.
So, if TS never mentioned about the FBI and the Sting Operation we were going to find them out? I don't think so. We thought about the FBI possibility but never digged too much about it or never thought of the Sting Operation. These theories were not existed on the forum before TS told it to us. Like we never thought about the leaf pattern inside the ambulance. That one came from TS as well.
Yes they've been kicked around since summer of 2009. Off and on, more off then on before TS mentioned it, but many have had it in their head as a "have to be involved" presence for a long time. I wasn't one of those people.
TMZ also injected FBI into the convo spring 2010 with the walking coffin pic and reference to MJs body being transported by the SWAT team. FBI also made a presence at the 2010 Grammy's when Earth Song video was played. Their special ops van was parked outside. The FBI involvement has been entrenched in the undertones of this hoax for a long time.
-
Curls, i give you a penny for each idea :)
Not all members have the energy of fighting their ideas. Or some are just relaxed and have better things to do than being in a continuous battle that leads to..nowhere.
I feel like we are losing so many opinions because of this pride contest .
-
FBI also made a presence at the 2010 Grammy's when Earth Song video was played.
And?
-
Instead of trying to debunk each other with no ending (because we don't know who's right or wrong anyway) we 'd better do the opposite and keep an eye on EVERY possibility.
Yup, very true! That's what I do. I have my own ideas about things, but they are only ideas, I have no proof, so I keep all the other theories filed away in little boxes in my brain, for future reference if needed!
Right! Don`t allow any distraction to occupy your mind ... :-) Cognitive dissonance, that is what we should be aware of.
Agrees.
-
Curls, i give you a penny for each idea :)
Not all members have the energy of fighting their ideas. Or some are just relaxed and have better things to do than being in a continuous battle that leads to..nowhere.
I feel like we are losing so many opinions because of this pride contest .
In all areas of life you get the vocal ones, who repeat themselves, won't let go or leave it be in their efforts to be heard, and you get others who quietly say what they want to and leave it at that. Most of my ideas are out there, I'm not repeating them or fighting them .... and I don't want paying!! (And the ones that aren't out there, I'm keeping to myself - some things are best not shared on a public forum! :lol: )
-
Totally understand where you come from.
I love your posts.
-
Talking it out helps to keep theories real and coherent. The best theories are still standing after getting hashed and rehashed by many minds working on the same project a the same time. It's the same reason scientists share the results of their independent research.
I'm not elevating us to the level of scientists, I'm just searching for a more eloquent way to say, it's good to talk about it with others so you don't start believing your own bullshit.
-
it's good to talk about it with others so you don't start believing your own bullshit.
:shock:
-
it's good to talk about it with others so you don't start believing your own bullshit.
:shock:
errrr as opposed to believing someone elses :?
-
@heartphantom, for someone who signed up less than a week ago and even said in the chat you haven't read TS' posts, you are very judgemental. It seems you put all your energy on this forum into ridiculing, attacking and petronizing TS and the members that participate in his threads. What exactly are you doing here?
-
Everyone talks about TS so i said what the heck.
I don't patronize members, in fact Bec patronized me.
But this is childish, let's stop pls.
I'll just stop talking about TS or in TS ' thread so Bec can play alone in that thread.
beerchug cheers
-
Everyone talks about TS so i said what the heck.
I don't patronize members, in fact Bec patronized me.
But this is childish, let's stop pls.
I'll just stop talking about TS or in TS ' thread so Bec can play alone in that thread.
beerchug cheers
Do not be so anxious to defend yourself. When people make some logical statements that oppose to the mainstream ideas, they are usually attacked in everyday life. For example, when I started my first(and last until now) thread I was supposed to have obtained a new ID in order to brainwash people of the forum. Now, you are supposed to be patronising the members of the forum.
You know, attacking the creator of some logical arguments and beliefs that oppose to your own beliefs rather than using rational arguments to defend them, has always been the main practice of dictators and controlling people. For example, Stahlin, Hitler and many many others would call their political enemies traitors and public corruptors rather than stand for their own ideas. When all the others were the "bad guys", then they were ready to sit on the throne of justice as its only righteous claimers.
Some thoughts of Democracy, because history is set in motion from small acts.
P.S. Do not accuse me that I called anybody a dictator or something, or of anything else conspiratory, because too much repetition leads to lethal boredom. I will not answer anyway.
michael-jackson/
-
Someone to criticize one of our arguments does not mean that it is criticizing our person. Challenge an idea does not entail disqualify who defends it. One of the functions of the theory of argumentation is that participating actors in a dialectical game accept that deliberative issues everything is likely to be contested. A deliberative fact, or a statement, you can admit various readings, and the more valid is the one who makes the best arguments. Despite this logic, there are hypersensitive people who plays the most insignificant comments on deliberative issues that concern you as an assault on their self-esteem. We support very bad criticism, something as common as that other person has a very different from our idea about something that may however be very opinion and therefore supports subjective reviews. Tolerance is to admit that this difference in approach is a very feasible possibility and its crystallization is not disqualification our person. But on the other way around. That someone stop to propose us a contrary argument to which we have put forward betrays some interest by us
-
PureLove
bec wrote:
Ts isn't offering anything as far as theories, we are. TS refers to theories already in existence, and that goes for the FBI theory as well. TS also sometimes supports false theories to encourage their debunking. TS isn't uncovering the truth, we are.
So, if TS never mentioned about the FBI and the Sting Operation we were going to find them out? I don't think so. We thought about the FBI possibility but never digged too much about it or never thought of the Sting Operation. These theories were not existed on the forum before TS told it to us. Like we never thought about the leaf pattern inside the ambulance. That one came from TS as well.
Everything's eerily quiet right now. Nothing from TS, TMZ, family, Dodo, etc. No big discoveries being posted. Not sure what to make of it, and then going with that is a thermometer rise in doubts from many. So that's kinda sad. I'm thinking that MJ must have a time-table/schedule of hoax events/happenings and this is a slow time. It all kinda worries me a bit, I guess that my gut feelings, intuition was wrong about hoax things--human nature I guess. But as far as my gut feelings about TS's question regarding an MJ sting court--I still don't feel that the evidence is there apart from TS saying there is, the Elvis/FBI parallel story, and the TMZ casket-legs pic. It could be MJ wants us to think it is a sting court for some reason, but it actually is not.
-
It could be MJ wants us to think it is a sting court for some reason, but it actually is not.
Do you mean as a "public reason", different than the real one?
-
"Nothing from TS, TMZ, family, Dodo, etc."
Yeah... This is really worrying.
TS does not want to meet even the so-called de Souza.
I do not know what is happening. Many were expecting a triumphant end in the next few months and now all of this slump!
TS, do you are speechless right now??
Why you disappear? confused/ confused/ confused/
-
@ bec
Talking it out helps to keep theories real and coherent. The best theories are still standing after getting hashed and rehashed by many minds working on the same project a the same time. It's the same reason scientists share the results of their independent research.
I'm not elevating us to the level of scientists, I'm just searching for a more eloquent way to say, it's good to talk about it with others so you don't start believing your own bullshit.
Very well put. :geek:
It keeps you grounded in the coherant, and on a progressive track, to soundboard each other.
I struggle with this, too, as my own "B.S." can be gloriously believable! Ha ha ha geek/
-
"Make your absence enough for someone to feel his absence, but not extend it too much for someone that does not learn to live without you."