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bec

Pardon but why not defib if he has no pulse? This is the most famous man in the world. What good reason could there possibly be to not defib him if he has no pulse and is being sent to ER?
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Quote from: "bec"
Pardon but why not defib if he has no pulse? This is the most famous man in the world. What good reason could there possibly be to not defib him if he has no pulse and is being sent to ER?
It's not a matter of why didn't they do it, it's that it is inappropriate to defibrillate someone is asystole. It's against ACLS protocols and has been proven to be ineffective.

Edit - The point of defibrillation is to STOP the heart in an attempt to get it to start beating a normal rhythm. If the patient is in asystole, their heart has already entirely stopped so there is no point to defibrillating.
For example, AEDs are automatic. They will assess the patients cardiac rhythm and determine whether or not a shock is advised. If it picks up asystole, it will not shock and it will tell you to continue CPR.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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MJJ1982

The stories just don't fit. A question (sorry if I overlooked it) but where did they say that it was asystole and not VF? I can't remember that I read that.
And if it's true that he had a pulse at hospital (which I doubt because it's hard to get someone back from asystole) he couldn't have VT because it was not higher than 100bpm.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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\'Just because it\'s in print, doesn\'t mean it\'s the gospel\'

\'A star can never die. It just turns into a smile and melts back into the cosmic music, the Dance of Life\'
You\'re just another part of me... I love YOU more...

Quote from: "MJJ1982"
The stories just don't fit. A question (sorry if I overlooked it) but where did they say that it was asystole and not VF? I can't remember that I read that.
And if it's true that he had a pulse at hospital (which I doubt because it's hard to get someone back from asystole) he couldn't have VT because it was not higher than 100bpm.
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That's the run form.

So here's why he was in asystole:
1. The paramedics report states that he was in asystole the entire time.
2. Every other source I've read stated that the medics never regained a pulse.
3. The gave atropine. You do not give atropine to V tach, V fib, or PEA (unless it's brady).
4. They were looking for orders to presume. In order to presume, the patient must have no rhythm change - e.g. they remain asystolic.

When he regained a pulse at the hospital, they said his rhythm was slow and wide. It sounds like it was just an IVR. There's a joke that you can give a steak enough epi and it'll have a pulse. Getting a pulse back and a wide, slow rhythm is not usually a sign that the patient is going to survive. Typically, in my experience, when I get someone back their heart is moving pretty quickly because of the epi and/or atropine. However, I never heard the hospital was able to defibrillate him either.

If this is not a hoax, I have no doubt that they were unable to defibrillate him. Not by choice, but because you do not defibrillate asystole. If it is a hoax, then they just didn't slip up in this case.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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ladyandbird

  • Guest
Thank you for this.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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MJJ1982

Quote from: "LadyMedic"

If this is not a hoax, I have no doubt that they were unable to defibrillate him. Not by choice, but because you do not defibrillate asystole. If it is a hoax, then they just didn't slip up in this case.

You're right. Thank you for your explanations, I've worked at cardiac surgery in the past, but it seems that I don't remember everything  ;)
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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\'Just because it\'s in print, doesn\'t mean it\'s the gospel\'

\'A star can never die. It just turns into a smile and melts back into the cosmic music, the Dance of Life\'
You\'re just another part of me... I love YOU more...

Does anyone else have any objective* questions about anything related to paramedics/ambulance/911 procedures/CPR/etc.? I'm just sort of bumping this because I keep seeing the same questions arise that I've gone over here, and I'm willing to answer and specific questions as best as I can. I also wanted to mention in regards to LAFD dispatching, I know that my company runs the same EMD  (Emergency Medical Dispatch) system.

*I say objective because things seemed to get out of hand in another forum in regards to this thread, and I really don't want to have that happen again. And as I've said above, I just want to bring this back around because there seems to be some confusion. I don't mind questions such as "Is it possible...?", but please no "Do you think...?" type questions.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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thank you for posting this...really interesting 8-)
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I love you Michael...as much as you love super soaker fights!!! xD

Quote from: "bec"
Lady Medic, please talk about how the endotracheal unit was not sitting properly on the mouth in the ambulance pic, as well as the paramedic was only using one arm to perform, presumably, CPR, as well as the choice to back out of Carrolwood instead of use the round about or turn around, as well as the obviously novice driving skills witnessed in that back out performance, as well as the fact that the paramedics left the ambulance doors wide open upon arrival at ucla as well as the complete lack of IV, cpr or any life saving techniques visible when entering ucla ER.

Because from where I'm sitting it looks like you're trying to discourage us because of the topics you chose to address and the ones you chose to omit and that makes me wonder if you're really a hoaxer. And if you are a hoaxer, what makes you believe considering your professional backround?

Additionally, should I just take your word for your stated expertise? Not trying to offend, just saying, you could be my next door neighbor who's a tree trimmer by trade spinning me a line of BS for all I know.

I hope you answer and take me very seriously and at face value because I am very very genuine in my line of questioning.

uh-huh...yeah! :evil:
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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bec

Quote from: "LadyMedic"
Does anyone else have any objective* questions

Yeah. For the 500th time. Why are you here.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "LadyMedic"
Does anyone else have any objective* questions

Yeah. For the 500th time. Why are you here.
Because I just read a post two days ago that someone stated dispatchers are not allowed to hang up until an ambulance arrives. Finding the truth isn't about believing only what you want and ignoring fact.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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TracyK

They are saying that MJ had been dead for 5-6 hours not 1-2 hours before arriving at Carolwood. So knowing that, does he still look dead, lol. I know that's a stupid question to ask. Please look at these pics. I have asked this question about 4 times and never did get an answer to it. How bout this... Can you look at these pictures and tell me what the differences are? Maybe if you spot the differences that I am referring to, you may be able to say dead or alive.. ESPECIALLY since 5-6 hours had supposedly past. BTW, look it up on youtube Latoya says he died at like 8 that morning according to what the family had been told.

These are so small.. Sorry I tried to make them bigger but it distorted them : ( I hope you can see what I cam talking about.

Look at the forehead and tell me if you see any differences


Look at the mouth and tell me the differences that you see


This is the whole face side by side with one pic flipped to get a side by side.


Maybe I am wanting to see something that isn't there.. To me, it looks as if he is in discomfort in one of the pictures. Can someone who has been dead for 5 hours moved their facial muscles? I am being very serious cause I know they have gas sometimes and muscle twitches. But I am not sure how long after death the muscles can twitch. After 5-6 hours??? Also, the muscles twitching is different then what I am seeing here. He is pursing his lips together (the best he can with the thing in his mouth) and his forehead looks wrinkled to me like he is in some pain. Thank you so much!!!
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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bec

Quote from: "LadyMedic"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "LadyMedic"
Does anyone else have any objective* questions

Yeah. For the 500th time. Why are you here.
Because I just read a post two days ago that someone stated dispatchers are not allowed to hang up until an ambulance arrives. Finding the truth isn't about believing only what you want and ignoring fact.

Nice dodge. I mean why are you on the hoax boards at all, but you knew that.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Quote from: "TracyK"
They are saying that MJ had been dead for 5-6 hours not 1-2 hours before arriving at Carolwood. So knowing that, does he still look dead, lol. I know that's a stupid question to ask. Please look at these pics. I have asked this question about 4 times and never did get an answer to it. How bout this... Can you look at these pictures and tell me what the differences are? Maybe if you spot the differences that I am referring to, you may be able to say dead or alive.. ESPECIALLY since 5-6 hours had supposedly past. BTW, look it up on youtube Latoya says he died at like 8 that morning according to what the family had been told.

These are so small.. Sorry I tried to make them bigger but it distorted them : ( I hope you can see what I cam talking about.

Look at the forehead and tell me if you see any differences


Look at the mouth and tell me the differences that you see


This is the whole face side by side with one pic flipped to get a side by side.


Maybe I am wanting to see something that isn't there.. To me, it looks as if he is in discomfort in one of the pictures. Can someone who has been dead for 5 hours moved their facial muscles? I am being very serious cause I know they have gas sometimes and muscle twitches. But I am not sure how long after death the muscles can twitch. After 5-6 hours??? Also, the muscles twitching is different then what I am seeing here. He is pursing his lips together (the best he can with the thing in his mouth) and his forehead looks wrinkled to me like he is in some pain. Thank you so much!!!
It's really hard to say whether or not a person looks dead because it is so subjective. I couldn't definitively say whether or not the person in the picture looks dead or not. There's no golden rule about it such as the body will always turn a waxy color after 3 hours. It just depends on the person and the circumstances.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "LadyMedic"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "LadyMedic"
Does anyone else have any objective* questions

Yeah. For the 500th time. Why are you here.
Because I just read a post two days ago that someone stated dispatchers are not allowed to hang up until an ambulance arrives. Finding the truth isn't about believing only what you want and ignoring fact.

Nice dodge. I mean why are you on the hoax boards at all, but you knew that.
I didn't know that and I'm not trying to dodge anything. And I said in my intro post why I am here. You could have just searched my posts and gone to my first post on the forum. I saw some people saying some very inaccurate things regarding the ambulance photo and stumbled across this forum where I saw even MORE inaccuracies about the photo, and then it continued into paramedics and CPR and the 911 call and all of that. I wanted to clear up what people were questioning to try to help out with the confusion.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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