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Hi everyone!! I'm sure most of you have seen me around the boards. I wanted to clear up some things for those who may not have read my posts regarding the ambulance, the 911 call, CPR, and paramedics. I know I've posted some of this stuff before, but because I post on this forum and another, I may not have posted the information I thought I did on this one. So I am cross posting this between forums so I know all of this information was given to both sites.

1. The ambulance didn't have its lights or sirens on.
True and False. The ambulance DID have its lights on when leaving the residence.
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In the video (which I have no doubt you all have seen!! lol), you'll notice beginning around the :30 mark, you can see the lightbar above the back doors. The lights are on. At the 1:10 mark (especially noted at the 1:15 mark), you'll notice on the side of the ambulance has it's lights going as well.
Now about the sirens. You are correct. In the video, you do not see the sirens going. I've discussed before that it is a courtesy to not blare sirens with so many bystanders around. And because there was no traffic, there would have been no use for the sirens at that time. I've had so much respect from people on this forum that I truly appreciate it. However, I know some people doubt what I'm saying about the sirens. I want to explain something. Legally, anytime you have your lights on you really should have your sirens on as well. This refers to being in traffic and on a road. If I'm parked in someone’s driveway, just because I left my lights on doesn't mean I need to have my sirens blaring. I want that to be understood before I post this link.
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I am the starter of this thread. I wanted you all to see unbiased opinions from other paramedics and EMTs from all over regarding sirens. Some bring up that fact that textbook, you should always have your sirens on when you have your lights on. However, everyone who states that also tells what they would realistically do. One user put it perfectly
“Basically, I use it when it'll be effective and I don't when it won't be effective or safe.”
So quite honestly, it would not be effective in the situation of the ambulance backing out. There’s no traffic to move out of the way.

2. The ambulance was not in a hurry.
I talked about this WAY back when I first came into the hoax scene. My argument is that the driver needs to drive safely to the hospital. It would NOT have been safe for the driver to get hyphie and fly out of the driveway. I’m sure you all understand by now that the paramedics (and that idiot Murray) were in the back of the ambulance working on the patient. A medic is standing up doing CPR. Another medic is maintaining the airway and making sure it remains secure. They are actually working and moving back there.
It took the ambulance 6 minutes to transport to UCLA. Mapquest and Google Maps say that it should take 6-7 minutes to get from 100 North Carolwood Drive to UCLA. So it sounds like a normal time. We don’t know what traffic was like, so we can’t be sure that the ambulance didn’t have to deal with traffic and could have gotten there faster.
The biggest thing about that time that we don’t know is when the driver told dispatch they were transporting. There is no right or wrong answer to when the driver told dispatch. We don’t know if they were transporting when the ambulance began to back out, while the ambulance was backing out, or after the ambulance backed out. So technically, road transport time could be anywhere from 3-6 minutes. And 3-6 minutes is an awesome and fast transport time.

3. It’s illegal to use lights and sirens in a non-emergency.
False. What is considered an emergency is subjective. As a paramedic, I make the decision whether or not to transport with lights and sirens. What I may decide to transport with, another medic may decide to transport without. Furthermore, in my system, if we are depleted of our ambulances, our dispatch may instruct us to transport even the most stupid things with lights and sirens. So if my partner is in the back with a drunk, and we are quickly being depleted of ambulances, when I tell the dispatcher I’m transporting without, they may come back and tell me to transport with in order to free up an ambulance. But going back to Michael, they were transporting with lights at least.

4. It’s against 911 policy to hang up before the ambulance arrives.
True and False, but WAY more False. Against 911 policy? No, it’s not. If someone needs to be explained how to care for a patient, such as doing CPR, you SHOULD stay on the line. My boyfriend just went through EMD training. He is now AEMD (Advanced Emergency Medical Dispatch) certified. Benefit for me is I can get easy, straight answers from him that I know are going to be entirely reliable and updated. So here’s the thing. It is at the discretion of the dispatcher whether or not they need to hang up. A dispatcher could be talking to someone who is calling for something non-life threatening, but remains on the phone the entire time to help ease the caller. Many EMD dispatchers are also EMTs or paramedics. So when they are talking to the caller, they can kick into EMT/medic mode and ask questions about the patient. It’s a comfort thing.
Now in the case of Michael, the dispatcher was absolutely not wrong to hang up. He could have stayed on the line to ask questions, but this was not a necessity. There was no point in telling the doctor to do 600 compressions because he was already doing CPR. The point I’m trying to make is that while everyone says it is against protocol to hang up, this is not at all true.

5. The ambulance picture has been CONFIRMED fake.
No, unfortunately it has not been. I know this has been brought up many times, and not just by myself, but I’m throwing it in here because I’m talking about the ambulance and whatnot. Brian Oxman stated he BELIEVES the photo is fake. He cannot confirm it is fake. The stage picture is the picture he believes the photo was photoshopped with. In MY OPINION, that is definitely not the most convincing picture. I’ve seen other photos that look more like the ambulance photo than that one. So in MY OPINION, for him to say that’s the photo that was used discredits him because I do not feel it matches. Again, those last two portions are my opinion, but that he can not 100% confirm that it’s fake is fact.
Now, I know there are some questions related to CPR in regards to Murray. I’m not going to answer those because I think Murray is the biggest idiot, and I have no idea why he did the things he did. Why did he do CPR on the bed? Because he’s an idiot. Why didn’t he have a defibrillator on scene? Because he’s an idiot. Why didn’t he have resuscitative equipment? Because he’s an idiot. Why did he wait to call 911? Because he’s an idiot. I have no logical explanation why Murray did the things he did.

6. 42 minutes on scene is absolutely unacceptable.
Yes and no. It totally depends on the situation. 42 minutes on average, I will admit is longer than I’d want to spend on scene. However, there are calls in which you spend more time on scene than you ever imagined you could. My personal longest time was just about 3 hours ;)... and the call was featured in the New York Times  :D.
We now have more information to attribute to why the medics stayed on scene so long. This is actually courtesy of my boyfriend as he gave me the thought. This is my (and his) hypothetical time line that I’m sure you’ll agree makes sense.
5 minutes to get to MJ
25 minutes to get everything set and work him
5 minutes to call the hospital
10 minutes to get him down the stairs and loaded into the ambulance
That all totals 45 minutes.
Where am I getting these times? I gave 5 minutes to get to MJ because they would need to collect their equipment from the ambulance and bring it inside and upstairs. We know that it is protocol for LAFD to work a patient for 20 minutes before trying to call it. I allotted them the 20 minutes they are required in addition to some extra time (5 minutes) they may have worked him and in order to set up appropriate equipment and make decisions. I gave them 5 minutes to discuss with Murray to continue to work the patient and to call the hospital to explain the situation. Finally, they get 10 minutes to continue working the patient, get him downstairs, loaded into the ambulance, and the medics to get situated in the back. When you break it down, the 42 minutes doesn’t sound too farfetched.

7. Michael doesn’t look dead in the picture.
I can’t comment on whether or not it looks like Michael now or from 20 years ago. But I can say that he doesn’t not look dead… does that make sense? I read somewhere that someone questioned my saying he could look dead or alive in the picture. This was not on the forum, and the user who knows what I’m talking about is more than welcome to contact me directly if they'd like!
In a nutshell, a nurse commented on the ambulance photo. They said I was an EMT, which I am not, I am a paramedic. Schooling wise, paramedics and RNs both spend 2 years in their studies (excluding bachelor paramedic degrees and BSNs). So technically, we’re on the same level. However, the nurse made the comment that she works in PACU (or the equivalent) and has seen people in cardiac arrest and says that they are essentially not a normal skin color. Here’s where I strongly beg to differ. I’ve seen dead people in many, many stages of death; seconds to minutes to hours to days to weeks. I’ve found people who were last seen the night before who merely look like they’re sleeping and others you cannot for a second mistake that they’re dead. I remember looking at one patient who had been worked for about 2 hours (it was a witnessed arrest) and I thought to myself “that’s the most alive looking dead person I’ve ever seen”. There is no set standard to say what a person will look like when they pass. And MJ would have been only 1-2 hours passed in that picture. With CPR being performed, lividity was not likely to be on major portions of the body. Also, he was intubated and I can say from numerous personal experiences that I’ve watched people go from straight up BLUE to a normal pink skin color in less than a minute after being intubated and ventilated. (Let’s also remember the ambulance window is tinted. Things ARE going to look darker than they would in normal lighting).
Now what makes my expertise on the subject more substantial? This is the field I work in. She works with post operative patients. You won’t find someone who is days dead in an operating room. Usually not even hours dead. So let me ask you this… would you ask me about anesthesia? Or would you rather ask an anesthesiologist? Who would have the better answer? Would you ask a neurologist about your child who hasn’t been feeling well? Or would you rather ask a pediatrician? Who would have the better answer? Do you see where I’m going with that? Note that this is also why I haven’t really made comments about the autopsy report among other things. While I do understand a good amount of medical terminology and conditions, I don’t know a darn thing about how an autopsy is supposed to be written. I prefer to comment about things I know about because they are my job.

So that’s my list. I want to reiterate a couple of things. First and foremost, I am not trying to discourage believers from believing. I want you to understand the logistics of the situation. Does it mean MJ is dead? No. Does it mean he’s alive? No. It’s just information. They could come out tomorrow and admit that it was all a hoax. That's why I want my information to be as objective as possible. So when I say why 42 minutes on scene was justified, if it was staged or real, it was still justified. When I describe that a dead person could look dead or alive (haha), regardless of if it was staged or real, a dead person coudl still look dead or alive. Know what I'm saying?
Also, I know there are other things that have been discussed regarding the ambulance, CPR, medics, and the 911 call. Most other questions I feel have been discussed enough (e.g. the equipment in the ambulance, the paramedic patches, etc.)
However, if there are any questions, even if it has been brought up a million times but you want clarification, please ask me. That’s what I’m here for!
I also hope no one minds that this is cross posted. I just wanted to make sure I covered the bases in both forums and those who belong to one forum and not the other still get to read and respond to this.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Thank you very much, LadyMedic, for sharing your expertise. I think it is important to "clear the picture" of assumptions and conclusions ...
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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[size=150]L.O.V.E.  Aintnosunshine[/size]

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Thank you for your educated and objective opinion. It's difficult to hear things that may go against what we believe but fact is fact. And you are not saying that Michael is dead. You are just relaying fact about the medical process getting Michael to the hospital.

I have to ask - would there be enough room in the ambulance for Dr Murray, the patient, and both medical personnel? And, is it possible to take a picture and not get a glimpse, even a hand or arm, of Dr Murray in the ambulance photo? He's a big man and there isn't much room. Thanks.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I'm proud to be a child of God and a member of MJ's Army of L.O.V.E.
 
"Press coverage of my life is like [watching] a fictitious movie...like watching science fiction. It's not true." ~Michael Jackson (2005)

"You should not believe everything you read. You are missing the most important revelations". Craig Harvey 3-15-2012

*

bec

Lady Medic, please talk about how the endotracheal unit was not sitting properly on the mouth in the ambulance pic, as well as the paramedic was only using one arm to perform, presumably, CPR, as well as the choice to back out of Carrolwood instead of use the round about or turn around, as well as the obviously novice driving skills witnessed in that back out performance, as well as the fact that the paramedics left the ambulance doors wide open upon arrival at ucla as well as the complete lack of IV, cpr or any life saving techniques visible when entering ucla ER.

Because from where I'm sitting it looks like you're trying to discourage us because of the topics you chose to address and the ones you chose to omit and that makes me wonder if you're really a hoaxer. And if you are a hoaxer, what makes you believe considering your professional backround?

Additionally, should I just take your word for your stated expertise? Not trying to offend, just saying, you could be my next door neighbor who's a tree trimmer by trade spinning me a line of BS for all I know.

I hope you answer and take me very seriously and at face value because I am very very genuine in my line of questioning.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Are you entertained?

*

2good2btrue

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Thank you so much LadyMedic.  You have cleared up alot of questions I had.  I've worked in the Medical field also.  This never seemed an issue about the sirens, so thanks for clearing that up.  In theory,  MJ would have had expert advice before planning such an elaborate hoax.  Musn't forget that Christopher Weiss from "Associated Press", (the famous last photo) is a fully trained paramedic  :P  :P  :P   As always, with L.O.V.E  xox
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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the arabian nights

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i think it is brilliant that you have started this thread, i will be reading it with interest
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Quote from: "voiceforthesilent"
Thank you for your educated and objective opinion. It's difficult to hear things that may go against what we believe but fact is fact. And you are not saying that Michael is dead. You are just relaying fact about the medical process getting Michael to the hospital.

I have to ask - would there be enough room in the ambulance for Dr Murray, the patient, and both medical personnel? And, is it possible to take a picture and not get a glimpse, even a hand or arm, of Dr Murray in the ambulance photo? He's a big man and there isn't much room. Thanks.

I've brought this up on the other forum, but again, this is why I wanted to make this topic!!
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In summation, from the angle of the picture you would not be able to see anyone sitting on the bench seat. The bench seat is large enough to fit three adults. You can see in the last picture my boyfriend so graciously posed in the picture! He's 6'2" and weighs about 210 pounds. I don't know exactly how big Murray is, but my boy isn't a small guy!!

And I haven't read all of the replies yet on here, but because I posted something like this along with my reply on the other forum, I want to make something clear:
This doesn't mean it still wasn't a hoax. (In hoax perspective) Murray may not have been in the ambulance to begin with because it's a hoax. Or, he was, he was out of shot by default, and the whole thing was staged.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Quote from: "bec"
Lady Medic, please talk about how the endotracheal unit was not sitting properly on the mouth in the ambulance pic, as well as the paramedic was only using one arm to perform, presumably, CPR, as well as the choice to back out of Carrolwood instead of use the round about or turn around, as well as the obviously novice driving skills witnessed in that back out performance, as well as the fact that the paramedics left the ambulance doors wide open upon arrival at ucla as well as the complete lack of IV, cpr or any life saving techniques visible when entering ucla ER.

Because from where I'm sitting it looks like you're trying to discourage us because of the topics you chose to address and the ones you chose to omit and that makes me wonder if you're really a hoaxer. And if you are a hoaxer, what makes you believe considering your professional backround?

Additionally, should I just take your word for your stated expertise? Not trying to offend, just saying, you could be my next door neighbor who's a tree trimmer by trade spinning me a line of BS for all I know.

I hope you answer and take me very seriously and at face value because I am very very genuine in my line of questioning.
I had actually made a video on youtube that went over the equipment and actions in the ambulance:
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As for the other questions, I know I've discussed some of them before, but this stuff is hard because I'm going to sound incredibly biased answering some of these things. And by biased, I mean because I am familiar with doing CPR and working in the field as a medic. So let me give it a shot:

The ET tube holder -
I'm assuming you're referring to the position of the ETT holder on the mouth. The tube holder has a bite block in the side of it that many times will prevent the mouth from being entirely closed. I would not say it is out of position, but there are a couple of factors you can look at. His mouth may simply be open. I've had plenty of dead patients with mouth and eyes wide open and they stay open (despite my best efforts to keep the eyes shut when I'm at the airway). I've also had patients with trismus or even rigor starting in the jaw. It does look like it's sitting lower on his mouth. However, everyones face is different. And now I'm leaning towards it being even more realistic because TMZ reported Michael had his mouth and eyes wide open.

One armed CPR -
I've done CPR with one hand. Other medics have done CPR with one hand. EMTs have done CPR with one hand. When you've been doign CPR for an hour straight, you get EXHAUSTED. Yes, you do switch out, but that doesn't mean you're not getting one of the most extreme workouts you've ever had. While you won't find it written anywhere, from experience, realistcally sometimes CPR is done with one hand. The two things to look at are the ambulance was moving, so it clearly looks like the medic is bracing himself with his right arm and doing CPR with his left. The other thing is Michael is not a large guy. Once ribs are broken, it doesn't take as much force to get to the proper depth and allow for proper recoil. So for me, this is one of the most street and realistic things in the picture.

The turn around -
I don't really want to comment much on this because it's sort of null and irrelevant to the stuff I wanted to talk about. But quickly, there were cars in the roundabout. I wasn't there, I can't say why they chose to back out, but I do know from video that they could not have made the turn with the cars parked in the circle. I prefer to back in because at one of my paid jobs it's required. At my other paid job and my vollie service, we don't have to. I don't know what they're protocols were, and I can't speculate what they were thinking. Maybe they thought they'd be able to circle through. Maybe there were people waving them to pull in head first (happens all the time). Maybe they were told that there's a place for them to turn around. Or maybe Ben needed to get the shot and this was the best way to go about it. But this part is really subjective so I really can't objectively answer it. What I can say is those stupid box ambulances SUCK to back up. They have terrible turning radius and I will drive my van ambulance any day but avoid driving boxes at all costs.

Leaving doors wide open -
Honestly, I do it all the time regardless of the patient or the situation. But in a code? Absolutely I would leave the doors open. Sometimes I close them, but most of the time I just want to get inside. So I have much confidence in saying this is 100% a normal thing.

Lack of IV or CPR -
I can't see what's happening in that picture. People have speculated so many different things. IV poles are at the bottom of the stretcher and Murray is blocked the view of where it would be. Even then, I may set the bag down on top of the patient when I bring them in. I see the medics at the head maintaining the airway. I can not see whether or not there is someone doing CPR. Sometimes we have people riding the stretcher, sometimes not. In this instance, you can believe whatever you'd like  :)

And I'm not offended by your comments. I understand your concerns, I truly, truly do. I know this is a sensitive subject for a lot of you. I feel that I've built up my credibility here. I called the paramedic tape fake the second I heard it. You can confirm my information with other sources. And you're more than welcome to ask me any questions about paramedicine in general.

The problem with a lot of things are the subjectivity. That's why I'm really trying to answer things from a paramedic's view and not from a believer or non believer. If I start doing that, then my information will be obscured. So things like why didn't the ambulance turn around or where was the IV at UCLA are tough for me to answer, ya know?
But I want to assure you that I am a licensed and actively practicing paramedic.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Quote from: "2good2btrue"
Thank you so much LadyMedic.  You have cleared up alot of questions I had.  I've worked in the Medical field also.  This never seemed an issue about the sirens, so thanks for clearing that up.  In theory,  MJ would have had expert advice before planning such an elaborate hoax.  Musn't forget that Christopher Weiss from "Associated Press", (the famous last photo) is a fully trained paramedic  :P  :P  :P   As always, with L.O.V.E  xox
Ahhhhh!!!  :shock:  Chris is not, not, not a paramedic!! He claimed he was an EMT. There's a large educational and skill gap between a medic and an EMT. I am NOT putting down EMTs because I was one for years and all of my partners are EMTs. I love (most of) them. :P

But Chris seemed to have not a gosh darn clue. He said it was a load and go within 8-10 minutes? That leads to me to believe he maybe went through the course, maybe passed this test and got his certification, but I doubt he worked for a service. I can guarantee you, and assure you with the LAFD protocols, that it was not a "load and go" situation with "8-10" minutes. They worked on the patient for 20 minutes and wanted to call it. That is totally acceptable and in their protocols.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Hey LadyMedic!!

I love reading your posts.....I have a questions and I do NOT thinkit has been asked before...

If MJ was declared dead at any time at the house or even the hospital...why oh WHY didnt they use the defibs on him?
I know thats a no no even if you have a faint heartbeat and using the defibs would stop your heart but Im just wondering if at any time when his heart stopped why they wouldnt or didnt use those????
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Quote from: "THE JACKSONOLOGIST"
Hey LadyMedic!!

I love reading your posts.....I have a questions and I do NOT thinkit has been asked before...

If MJ was declared dead at any time at the house or even the hospital...why oh WHY didnt they use the defibs on him?
I know thats a no no even if you have a faint heartbeat and using the defibs would stop your heart but Im just wondering if at any time when his heart stopped why they wouldnt or didnt use those????
Awesome, excellent question!! I did bring it up somewhere else one time, but I'll do it again. (Just checked. It was on the other forum)

This isn't subjective. This is totally ACLS protocols.

There are essentially 4 lethal heart rhythms - PEA (pulseless electical acvitity), aystole (flatline), V tach (ventricular tachycardia), and V fib (ventricular fibrillation)
 *Also note in case anyone knows about this as well and is picky, you could claim that there are 5 rhythms by counting polymorphic (torsades) and monomorphic V tach differently  :P But I'm classifying them both under V tach.

Only two of those can be defibrillated, V tach and V fib. If the patient is in PEA or asystole, you do NOT defibrillate. You only do CPR.

Here's the alogrithm we follow. I'm posting the link because the picture is giantic and if I shrink it, you may not be able to read it clearly:
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On there, you'll note right at the top it states "Shockable rhythm" and then "Shockable" to the left with V tach and V fib and "Not Shockable" to the right with PEA and asystole.

Reports say that MJ was in asystole the entire time with paramedics, therefore they could not have defibrillated him.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Thank you Lm....that was very informative........

My sisters hubby had some major heart issues one day and his heart was racing so fast they actully defibbed him to slow it downor else he would have died......they ended doing heart surgery on him...there was some kind of artery that was messed up.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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*

MJJ1982

Quote from: "LadyMedic"


Reports say that MJ was in asystole the entire time with paramedics, therefore they could not have defibrillated him.

But they said he had a pulse at a time? Could that mean he went from asystole into VF (I can't remember the exact pulse but I thought it was too low for VT)? And why didn't they defibrillate him then?
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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\'Just because it\'s in print, doesn\'t mean it\'s the gospel\'

\'A star can never die. It just turns into a smile and melts back into the cosmic music, the Dance of Life\'
You\'re just another part of me... I love YOU more...

Quote from: "THE JACKSONOLOGIST"
Thank you Lm....that was very informative........

My sisters hubby had some major heart issues one day and his heart was racing so fast they actully defibbed him to slow it downor else he would have died......they ended doing heart surgery on him...there was some kind of artery that was messed up.
Synchronized cardioversion  :)
Quote from: "MJJ1982"
Quote from: "LadyMedic"


Reports say that MJ was in asystole the entire time with paramedics, therefore they could not have defibrillated him.

But they said he had a pulse at a time? Could that mean he went from asystole into VF (I can't remember the exact pulse but I thought it was too low for VT)? And why didn't they defibrillate him then?
The newest thing is that at the hospital he regained a pulse. The medics never regained a pulse. No need to defibrillate him because he had a pulse. So if he went from asystole to a rhythm with pulses, there's no need to defib.
And V fib never has pulses, but V tach can. The treatment for V tach with pulses is different than V tach without.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Interesting.....
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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