Hoax Recap?

[virgo75]

A lot of people on here are having doubts.
I thought it would get us going in the right direction to post a re-cap thread.
It was mentioned in another thread, so I'm stealing someone else's idea.
Hope you guys don't mind.   :oops:

Ok, maybe we could start by listing all of the "odd things" that gave us doubts about what was going on June 25th, 2009.
We can also list the pros and cons of how this could relate to either a hoax or something else.
For example:

1)The ambulance pic.
Pro - It doesn't look like a dead Mike, or even a recent Mike so it can't be real and could be hoax related.
Con - It could have been photoshopped just for money whether Michael is dead or not.

2)The 911 call.
Pro - There were inconsistancies in how the call was handled - no name mentioned, CPR on the bed, the dispatcher hung up before the EMTs arrived.
Con - From other input(particularly a member on here - LadyMedic - and others in the medical field) the way they handled the call was professional and since there was supposed to be a doctor present, they were allowed to hang up.

I'm going to try to add to the list and I'm hoping others will also add to the list and the pros and cons as well.
Thank you.  

[the arabian nights]

for me it is the helicopter and franks comments about having spoken to mike post 25/06/09

i want to review the helicopter stuff with you guys and i will be looking at all the previous threads on this and reviewing YT.

what i am hoping is that we can go further than just the pro's and cons, as you guys are all professional hoaxers now and we have had our first look now we can cold case this a bit. I know that another member of this site is interested in this aspect.

[virgo75]

for me it is the helicopter and franks comments about having spoken to mike post 25/06/09

i want to review the helicopter stuff with you guys and i will be looking at all the previous threads on this and reviewing YT.

Thanks for responding.

For me -
The helicopter:
Pro - 1)a helicopter is a not standard procedure to transport a dead body(show?) 2)the doors are open - to make sure people see?  3)Where did the photographers come from who were filming the transport and how did they know?  4)the changing sizes and weights of who/what is on the stretcher  5)the movement in the helicopter

Con - 1)could have been done to distract the media from the actual transport on the ground.  2)could have been done to further the drama and income on any endeavours AEG and/or SONY entered into to profit off of Michael's death.  3)the movement etc. could have been for show as in #1 & #2.

If anyone else has anymore or can contradict anything I wrote please chime in.  

[*Mo*]

Virgo, why don't you go through the Official Questions List first, and write a recap yourself?  I love the idea of a recap, but the way you want to do it now it will most likely turn out like another thread with numerous post, so there's still no real recap.

[virgo75]

Virgo, why don't you go through the Official Questions List first, and write a recap yourself?  I love the idea of a recap, but the way you want to do it now it will most likely turn out like another thread with numerous post, so there's still no real recap.

Ok, thank you.
This is a good idea.
I was kind of trying to get other people's views as well.
I'll go try to get through the list and share my thoughts in a little bit.

[the arabian nights]

Virgo, why don't you go through the Official Questions List first, and write a recap yourself?  I love the idea of a recap, but the way you want to do it now it will most likely turn out like another thread with numerous post, so there's still no real recap.

think we are going to do the research - but we are all at work at the moment
so i will get on to it a little later, i really dont want this to be a rehash but more than that and not a question list either, please give us a little time and please dont lock us - please mo.

[*Mo*]

Oh no, it was just a suggestion, no intentions of locking this thread..!

[ladyandbird]

for me it is the helicopter and franks comments about having spoken to mike post 25/06/09

i want to review the helicopter stuff with you guys and i will be looking at all the previous threads on this and reviewing YT.

Thanks for responding.

For me -
The helicopter:
Pro - 1)a helicopter is a not standard procedure to transport a dead body(show?) 2)the doors are open - to make sure people see?  3)Where did the photographers come from who were filming the transport and how did they know?  4)the changing sizes and weights of who/what is on the stretcher  5)the movement in the helicopter

Con - 1)could have been done to distract the media from the actual transport on the ground.  2)could have been done to further the drama and income on any endeavours AEG and/or SONY entered into to profit off of Michael's death.  3)the movement etc. could have been for show as in #1 & #2.

If anyone else has anymore or can contradict anything I wrote please chime in.  

OR, maybe he wasn't at UCLA at all that day, we have to at least consider that.

[virgo75]

for me it is the helicopter and franks comments about having spoken to mike post 25/06/09

i want to review the helicopter stuff with you guys and i will be looking at all the previous threads on this and reviewing YT.

Thanks for responding.

For me -
The helicopter:
Pro - 1)a helicopter is a not standard procedure to transport a dead body(show?) 2)the doors are open - to make sure people see?  3)Where did the photographers come from who were filming the transport and how did they know?  4)the changing sizes and weights of who/what is on the stretcher  5)the movement in the helicopter

Con - 1)could have been done to distract the media from the actual transport on the ground.  2)could have been done to further the drama and income on any endeavours AEG and/or SONY entered into to profit off of Michael's death.  3)the movement etc. could have been for show as in #1 & #2.

If anyone else has anymore or can contradict anything I wrote please chime in.  

OR, maybe he wasn't at UCLA at all that day, we have to at least consider that.

Yes, thank you, that's also possible.

There were reports of helicopters over Neverland, right?
Hmmmm.....

[virgo75]

Right now I'm trying to go through the Official Questions List as suggested, but it's kind of jumbled and random.  

I'm going to try to start by making a chronolgical list of inconsistancies that were seen as clues rather than just questions, if that makes sense.  Maybe I should start with going back to before June 25th?  Ok, thinking out loud(sorry  :oops: ) list for now and I'll try to elaborate on pros and cons afterwards.

Before June 25th:
* O2 announcement
* The concert plans - how many, where, who is involved, etc.
* The rehearsals

On June 25th:
* The timeline reports from staff & Murray
* The 911 call
* The ambulance
* The photograph of the inside of the ambulance
* Reports out of UCLA
* The media coverage of Michael's "collapse"/"coma"/"death"
* The announcement of Michael's death by Jermaine

After June 25th:
* Conflicting stories of staff
* Murray's account of what happened
* The moving van at the house
* The family's statements


I haven't even gotten to the memorial, the funeral, the interview with family & friends, Murray's background, or the trial, but I have to get back to work. lol  I'll try to continue this later.  If anyone wants to add or suggest anything, please do.  

[mjboogie]

How about the BLUE suit that Katherine wore to this week's trial. Another member pointed it out here. Katherine wore the same suit she wore at MJ's 2005 trial!! SHe wore it to this week's trial.

[the arabian nights]

The Helicopter

The thing that got me to the hoax was the helicopter; I know that I am not alone here.
[youtube:2ry4obe2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPva142GTaA[/youtube:2ry4obe2]

[youtube:2ry4obe2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmo7rFuA3n0&NR=1[/youtube:2ry4obe2]

in this vid you can i believe see as if hands are moving and then the shoulder thing and then the lift - in this vid it seems alot more marked

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but back up a bit there is a red target underneath - were they just above the ground in this shot, yes they were just about to land.

I don’t want to write a rehash of the threads, but I must be honest it may amount to that. I want us to look again, with fresh eyes, this stuff is not new to us now, and we should be hardened and not get distracted.

I want you guys to look and think,
•   have we forgotten to question anything,
•   have we missed something,
•   have we made an unreasonable assumption?

A few weeks ago I asked those who had lost faith to tell me why the helicopter is not a hoax. But no one said it was. No not mike, not anyone.

Now with my own views having shifted even further to believing that there is more chance that mike is dead, I ask myself that question. I ask you to help critically review this element of the hoax.

Remember we have said that this was part of the hoax.
 
The official view
The official view is that mike died on 25th June 2009, after the death had been confirmed (another story) and the body identified (another story), he was placed wrapped in a white sheet or white body bag (another story) and was transported via helicopter to the coroners office. It was also alleged I think in the autopsy report, that mike was accompanied by someone to the coroner’s office.

Here is the vid of the body being moved from the heli to the van - the point here i want to make is that we do not see the 3 flight guys or anyone from the flight that can be seen accompanying mike to the coroners office - so is that part of the autopsy wrong - did i imagine it.

[youtube:2ry4obe2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kzSeo08VJo[/youtube:2ry4obe2]

Normal practice or not
How often do they use the helicopter to transport bodies?

Road transportation
Was it mike in the wrapping/body bag or was it a decoy, or was he transported by road.

Was it MJ’s body in the helicopter?
First we do not know if it was his body in the helicopter save for any comments in the autopsy report (need an autopsy report hoaxer to confirm this as I only read 1 or 2 pages). The news reporters were assuming on 25th that it was mike; the autopsy reports became public only recently.

Was it the same body that was put in that was taken out? It would seem not look at the flat lack of body shape in this vid
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but this following vid the first few seconds there does seem to be a tummy shape - a body density -could this then be mike or decoy mike? also in this vid you see a man with a cream shirt going into the van ahead of the body is he the man accompanying the body?
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Firstly, the loading of the body - the French Vid is good on this. The body was pushed to the back behind the flight – guy, but when the body is taken out we see a body behind with the straps on and the body without straps taken from the side.
It is true that the body taken off did not have straps.

Secondly,  the flight guy by the open door did not go back and release any black ties,  when the body is taken out we don’t see anyone releasing the black ties, what we see I think is that a body (albeit a flatter body – or no body) being  lifted out. I also do no see anyone from the helicopter accompanying the body onto the coroners van (wasn’t that stated in the autopsy report). (working on memory here).

Thirdly, it would seem that there were 2 or more bodies.

If so what happened to the other body(ies), how and when did the other body get there, where did it go?

Or was mikes body transported by road. I have even heard/read/seen that some pp are saying that the fake Germany coroners van Vid, with mike coming out is actually a depiction of the truth (though not the real thing).

This is the faked vid (this vid has been admitted as a fake)

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The wriggle
I have looked and looked at the wriggle and all I think about is, me on an airplane with the blanket slipping off and me too lazy to fix it, so I wriggled. This seems to be the exact same move. Is this the new move that was mentioned so much?

Can a fresh(ish) corpse move like this?

Others have said that the body cannot wriggle, the body was lifted; sorry don’t see any hands lifting, or a body attached to any hands that I can’t see. Tech guys can – can you do a still and zoom to see if here are any hands or a body attached to those hands, which are moving the body?

The French Vid
Lets back up a bit the French got a good view of the helicopter, and to me there is movement from within before the flight takes off, from the back were the body is  a movement to the cockpit – or is it my eyes.

With regard to other parts of the hoax it has been a steady release of information that changes the picture, more bits of the puzzle.

But with this we have the scene but do we have all the information? What have we missed, what have we over looked, what have we made assumptions about, what is missing?

The autopsy reports says two things on memory of reading a few pages of a document I did not want to read

1.   That mike was transported by helicopter
2.   That someone accompanied the body from the helicopter to the coroners van.

So do I have an explanation –now that I believe that the chances are that mike is dead? How do I explain this helicopter wriggle?

All I can say playing your devils advocate is that this may not be how he was transported – he may have been transported by van and the helicopter thing was a decoy.

this vid - the newscasters say that they dont know if it was mike but somebody wrapped up, they said that they cannot confirm that. they said that mike was not taken by helicopter to the hospital by helicopter but by the paramedics

[youtube:2ry4obe2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3NLmHZO2XE&NR=1[/youtube:2ry4obe2]

If you want me to add the vid’s tell me and I will, I have not finished I think I will edit and add and change.


All of this is based on the belief that mike attended the hospital in the first place we have Jermaine saying that he was not with us oops comment.
[youtube:2ry4obe2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d62l6H1RwFM[/youtube:2ry4obe2]
look at this hoax vid on the opps
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question is - is it an opps and jermaine just getting the facts wrong, but was his recovery in making an error acceptable - i am still out on this one.

We have conflicting views as to how he may have entered the hospital, on the stretcher or wheeling him in. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login.
the still looks convincing  of a michael looking ponytail and a michael looking profile - is this another jackson hoax oddities

[BlessHisHeart]

The thing that got me was the two ambulance videos showing two different occurances PROVING that they had to be filmed TWICE...proving that somethin ain't right!

[virgo75]

Thank you for the responses.  

Sorry I've been M.I.A.  I shouldn't even start thread because of how busy I am.   :lol:

mjboogie - Thank you, I'll make sure to add Mrs. Jackson wearing the blue outfit when I make it up to the trial.  
the arabian nights - Thank you for your in-depth look at the helicopter situation.  It is quite questionable - especially that wiggle.  :shock:   Even if MJ wasn't in the helicopter, what was the point of that movement?  Who or what was in there?  Great questions.  Please feel free to add more when you have the time.
BlessHisHeart - Thank you for reminding me of the 2 ambulance videos. Again, what is the point of 1)filming it twice? and/or 2)allowing it to be released so others can see it?  And if it's release was unintentional, then who realeased it, and why?

I feel like I have so much work to do.
I should have started this on a weekend when I have more free time.   :lol:

[Harry]

Just check my videos, I think its a great recap.