Official back & Front thread

[emulik]

I read this yesterday and I thought that was interesting. What a wise man he is:

The Dalai Lama. Sept. 10, 2012:

‎"All the world's major religions, with their emphasis on love, compassion, patience, tolerance, and forgiveness can and do promote inner values. But the reality of the world today is that grounding ethics in religion is no longer adequate. This is why I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether."

very actual, indeed! thanks Mary! the part of the quote that I highlighted reminds me of what Michael (or someone from his team) wrote on his official website before announcement of TII concerts: The time has come The time has come The time has come...

[marumjj]

Leilani81, good post!  There's something about religion that just reduces everything to whether you are on the saved side or damned, and trying to convince/coerce the 'damned' to be on your perception of the saved side.  But meanwhile in the whole of creation, there is the exquisite beauty of each atom, molecule, life, sunset, human essence,  energy that constantly needs to be explored and revelled in—and that could be missed while pursuing proselytizing.

Angel, about MJ's wise words, it's his heart and mind that has touched me deep inside like I've never experienced before, and so I must stay the course.

Mary, my son was reminding me the other day that Confusius had a profound moral impact on the far east with teachings such as:
"Do unto others what you want done unto you." which is the same as Jesus' words, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  Yet Confucius lived around 551 BC - 479 BC.

That's my favorite line, as also "lead by example", which conforms to all religions.  ;)

[son]

I think Donte means, "let's not let religion divide us".  Listen to what some of these prophets were "saying".  Spirituality and religion are different.  Religions are man made.   Think about the difference between the laws of men and the laws of God/nature.

God and nature are conflated. Another common theme throughout religion, spirituality, government and philosophy is trying to go beyond (or at least regulate) one's own nature. I'm pretty much a traditional Christian by most standards but I see with other religions that they become watered down as people pick and choose what part they want to follow. If you don't take any movement in it's entirety you'll never understand it. I could potentially make up a random quote and attribute it to a lot of these figures and a lot of you would believe it because it "sounds right". I think Donte is being disrespectful to his uncle by saying he is someone who is uncle didn't feel comfortable comparing himself to.

[BeTheChange]

@son...You've stated that you have a traditional Christian background and that helps to understand where you're coming from, somewhat...since that in itself can mean a whole bunch of different things (it's all interpretative and relative).  I, too, grew up in a traditional Christian atmosphere...but in my later years, disassociated myself with the 'religion' aspect of it because I couldn't swallow the hypocrisy I saw all around me.  You say that people choose what they want to believe if it 'sounds right', and I agree....I also believe that many traditional Christians lead the way in that department.

You are putting Donte down for what YOU interpret him as saying/believing.  Have you ever spoken to Donte one on one? Have you even spent time trying to understand his perspective? Do you know how much or how little influence Mike had/has on Donte and his beliefs?  In 'judging' Donte...and by all accounts you are when you say he is being disrespectful to his uncle....are you forgetting the "do not judge, lest ye be judged" (Matt 7:1) part of your traditional Christian doctrine or are you simply choosing what to believe and follow when it suits you?  If you are 'ok' in judging Donte over YOUR interpretation of what he means (which, IMO, a narrow viewpoint cannot understand correctly)...then you should also be 'ok' with being judged yourself....by Jesus' own statement.  In that regard, perhaps you are being disrespectful to Mike for passing judgement on his nephew whom you've never met and never walked a mile in his shoes....by Mike's own statement.

This is the main reason why I disassociated myself from religion...I found, and still find, that people use it as a tool/means to judge people by....which, IMO, is completely hypocritical of those who claim to follow Jesus and/or the Bible.  That quote that Mary posted by the Dalai Lama speaks volumes....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that man-made 'religions' have FAILED in achieving/fulfilling their purpose, which should have been peace, co-existence, respect, and love for all things.

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High"
~Psalm 82:6

How does that fit into traditional Christian teachings?  Or does it just not 'sound right'?

With L.O.V.E. always.

[Adi]

I'm not religious, I follow no religion. I follow God, I follow Good, peace, love and life. God is around us, He is in each of us, the birth of a new child, animal and plant. I hope no one takes offense to that but I think far too many wars, disagreements and arguements come about in people disagreeing on the scriptures. I do not disagree with any religion I just do not follow any I just follow what god wants of us, to be kind, loving, forgiving and live humble,and denie evil in any form I think that is the underline in all religions...I live my life in a way that will do him proud as a father to his child would, I live with free will to believe in him and live by all that he wishes of us because it is was his dreams/his hopes/his intentions for us when he created us, I do not fear judgement day and being casted into hell because hell can not exist if you live how he intended and give love and kindness..ultimately good into the world, I follow because my heart was created by god and in this heart he imagined great good and kindness, love and forgiveness..  I can see what Donte is saying and his belief system.

Great post leilani.

[Adi]

I think Donte's posts on his blog/tumblr are great and I want to add ...why do I have to follow any religion? To me organised "religion" is another form of control.

I can believe in God or any other spiritual higher being - whatever the name - it does not mean I have to be controlled and dictated to by the human powers that be in organised religion, regardless of the faith. I'm not picking and choosing bits and pieces at random from any religion just because it suits me and what I believe in I won't force upon others.

Many wars have been and STILL ARE being waged across the globe in the name of "religion" (and oil & "power/control" as well)

[MJonmind]

Truth should be able to tolerate profound probing, dissecting, annalyzing, and remain untouched itself.  I raised my 3, homeschooling them and super involved in the church. Now my 2 sons are basically atheists or agnostics, sounding a whole lot like Donte in their arguments, which we have many lively ones. There is nothing wrong with searching, and I encourage them in it.  God will bring them to some understanding, or there is no God (and I do believe there is a loving Creator). This learning/understanding/believing is one of the joys of being human!

[Sarahli]

As I see it it's always the human factor which is responsible for the bad things. The problem imo isn't religion itself but men and women's choices. It's like a political party or an association, people gather together because they share similar beliefs and there is nothing wrong with that but it can deteriorate and get out of control when freedoms are suppressed for example. I think that's why TS insisted on the "do you think for yourself" theme. It's extremely important. When it comes to debate and who is right or wrong: Just how many different movements do exist in every religion? Many. Healthy debate is good of course but the existence of all these different movements just shows how much people can disagree on something that is based on the same scripture. And well I believe the truth always stands out in the end that's where people can find peace in. Love, Peace and Freedom is what we need.

I thought it would be nice to re-post part of Front's poem (maybe he'll grant us a new one)  :icon_lol: oh and I loved the expression "snippet us" from Wishingstar, it's so cute.  :icon_e_biggrin:

"A collective heart
One love, one race
No matter the color of your face
Beliefs may differ along the way
Through this journey from night into day
Soldiers of L.O.V.E., hand in hand
As we trek through the desolate land
Light will emanate from below and above
Warming our souls with a religion of Love"

[blankie]

A collective heart
One love, one race
No matter the color of your face
Beliefs may differ along the way
Through this journey from night into day
Soldiers of L.O.V.E., hand in hand
As we trek through the desolate land
Light will emanate from below and above
Warming our souls with a religion of Love"

It's wonderful !!!     :bearhug:

[suspicious mind]

As I see it it's always the human factor which is responsible for the bad things. The problem imo isn't religion itself but men and women's choices. It's like a political party or an association, people gather together because they share similar beliefs and there is nothing wrong with that but it can deteriorate and get out of control when freedoms are suppressed for example. I think that's why TS insisted on the "do you think for yourself" theme. It's extremely important. When it comes to debate and who is right or wrong: Just how many different movements do exist in every religion? Many. Healthy debate is good of course but the existence of all these different movements just shows how much people can disagree on something that is based on the same scripture. And well I believe the truth always stands out in the end that's where people can find peace in. Love, Peace and Freedom is what we need.

I thought it would be nice to re-post part of Front's poem (maybe he'll grant us a new one)  :icon_lol: oh and I loved the expression "snippet us" from Wishingstar, it's so cute.  :icon_e_biggrin:

"A collective heart
One love, one race
No matter the color of your face
Beliefs may differ along the way
Through this journey from night into day
Soldiers of L.O.V.E., hand in hand
As we trek through the desolate land
Light will emanate from below and above
Warming our souls with a religion of Love"

:th_bravo: wonderful post   :bearhug:

[son]

@son...You've stated that you have a traditional Christian background and that helps to understand where you're coming from, somewhat...since that in itself can mean a whole bunch of different things (it's all interpretative and relative).  I, too, grew up in a traditional Christian atmosphere...but in my later years, disassociated myself with the 'religion' aspect of it because I couldn't swallow the hypocrisy I saw all around me.  You say that people choose what they want to believe if it 'sounds right', and I agree....I also believe that many traditional Christians lead the way in that department.

You are putting Donte down for what YOU interpret him as saying/believing.  Have you ever spoken to Donte one on one? Have you even spent time trying to understand his perspective? Do you know how much or how little influence Mike had/has on Donte and his beliefs? In 'judging' Donte...and by all accounts you are when you say he is being disrespectful to his uncle....are you forgetting the "do not judge, lest ye be judged" (Matt 7:1) part of your traditional Christian doctrine or are you simply choosing what to believe and follow when it suits you?   If you are 'ok' in judging Donte over YOUR interpretation of what he means (which, IMO, a narrow viewpoint cannot understand correctly)...then you should also be 'ok' with being judged yourself....by Jesus' own statement.  In that regard, perhaps you are being disrespectful to Mike for passing judgement on his nephew whom you've never met and never walked a mile in his shoes....by Mike's own statement.

This is the main reason why I disassociated myself from religion...I found, and still find, that people use it as a tool/means to judge people by....which, IMO, is completely hypocritical of those who claim to follow Jesus and/or the Bible.  That quote that Mary posted by the Dalai Lama speaks volumes....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that man-made 'religions' have FAILED in achieving/fulfilling their purpose, which should have been peace, co-existence, respect, and love for all things.

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High"
~Psalm 82:6

How does that fit into traditional Christian teachings?  Or does it just not 'sound right'?

With L.O.V.E. always.

You dug yourself a deeper whole and only illustrated my point when you quoted Matthew 7:1. Critics of Christianity never/seldom read the following verses  which clearly state "not to judge Hypocritically".

As far as the Psalms scripture goes, Jesus himself actually references it in the gospel of John after saying he is one with God (Read Chapter 10). Demonstrating that his claim wasn't blasphemy.

My point is religion or philosophy get a lot less subjective if people actually take the time to read it.

You could make the claim that a lack of thorough reading is one thing that still effects Michael's own public image. Would it simply be a person's opinion to believe if MJ was a pedophile? Or is it ignorance? A lot of people who think Michael was a pedophile have experiences and a perspective that many of us fans do not understand yet we're quick to correct them on that.

[bec]

ENOUGH.

<---------See the mod label?

Son, I don't know what you're trying to get at with that last paragraph but I don't like it. I think you should quit right now while you're ahead.

[son]

ENOUGH.

<---------See the mod label?

Son, I don't know what you're trying to get at with that last paragraph but I don't like it. I think you should quit right now while you're ahead.

My point is to read, everything. Not just what justifies your beliefs. Non-fans do that to MJ and there's a parallel to Jesus in that respect. I don't post that often so don't get a hissy fit.

[ellyd]

There is NO evidence for it.
People still repeating this accusation are led by their individual ignorance and unwillingness to dig to the truth. It is not even their opinion because opinion is a result of consciously weighing left and right. Too many don't do this weighing but swallow the marketed "pills of knowledge and happiness" without any question - no matter where these pills come from.

Truth is a task to ask questions on a constant basis, including questioning oneself, is meant to work and sweat for and is not a gift falling for free from the clouds. Everybody has a choice every second of his/her life.

The hoaxers here are not fans or non-fans and those do this and these do that as well as MJ is not this and has done that.
The world doesn't consist of drawers.
To those loving drawers because they make life easy: keep on digging with the love. It gets more fun, too ;-)

[BeTheChange]

@son...I agree with bec that your last paragraph doesn't 'sound right' and doesn't have a good 'energy' vibe around it.

As for the rest...you assume (and incorrectly) that I and/or others haven't read scriptures or don't understand them....or that your interpretation is the absolute truth.  You are, of course, entitled to your opinion...but that entitlement doesn't equate to 'fact'...nor do any other opinions that are grounded in faith.  I, myself, believe quite a lot that is faith driven (i.e. I can't prove it with tangible evidence)...and I've learned that the quickest way to create division is to judge people for not having the same beliefs which YOU interpret as truth.  All we can and should do is share our beliefs/experiences with others and listen to theirs with an open mind and open heart....without passing judgement...in the hopes of gaining a deeper understanding.

We can go back and forth forever and focus on the differences in our beliefs...it's what's been happening around the world for centuries, and picking up pace as of late.  Or we can CHOOSE to focus on our similar beliefs...which include love, peace and harmony for ALL.  Only then will we truly be supporting what we so easily preach...while steering clear away from hypocrisy.

With L.O.V.E. always.