Official back & Front thread

[hopi]

Respectfully, I think it is a mistake to love unconditionally. Conditions are like boundaries and healthy boundaries are necessary in any positive relationship for a nurturing sense of respect for self. My love has value. I do not give it to anyone who does not respect me as a human being with thoughts, desires, hopes, and dreams. I believe women, in particular, really need to have a sense of good boundaries to prevent them from feeling used and disrespected, worthless and unworthy.

We give so much of ourselves in relationships with our loved ones, naturally, as women, that it is imperative that we not forget to love and respect ourselves first and foremost.

All this talk about love... don't forget to keep it real, lest we set unrealistic goals and the spend lifetimes becoming self destructive and self depreciating chasing the unattainable.

Please take time out to be good to yourself, girls. Your body, including your psyche and spirituality, self, YOU, IS your temple. Stand up for your feelings, good or bad, do not repress them.

To love unconditionally presumes YOU to be BETTER than the one who doesn't treat you right, with love, respect... For if you only love because you are loved you are no better than they, but you ONLY exchange feelings.

Michael loves Jesus because of this too: “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.”

Bec, I know where you're comming from, I've been through such a bad relationship myself. It took me YEARS to get over it and some more YEARS to find myself again. Now I know this will never happen to me again, because I take care of myself - that's the MOST requiered thing you have to do in case you want to love someone else "unconditional".
Veronicafall you might be right, but from my experience I can tell you that there are ppl that can't be loved unconditional, because they take EVERYTHING away from you in the name of love. And when they leave you're nothing - only an empty shell with NO content. So to love "unconditional" you have to be careful - just like Bec said...

Front, I love your poem, thank you for that.

[MJonmind]

Respectfully, I think it is a mistake to love unconditionally. Conditions are like boundaries and healthy boundaries are necessary in any positive relationship for a nurturing sense of respect for self. My love has value. I do not give it to anyone who does not respect me as a human being with thoughts, desires, hopes, and dreams. I believe women, in particular, really need to have a sense of good boundaries to prevent them from feeling used and disrespected, worthless and unworthy.

We give so much of ourselves in relationships with our loved ones, naturally, as women, that it is imperative that we not forget to love and respect ourselves first and foremost.

All this talk about love... don't forget to keep it real, lest we set unrealistic goals and the spend lifetimes becoming self destructive and self depreciating chasing the unattainable.

Please take time out to be good to yourself, girls. Your body, including your psyche and spirituality, self, YOU, IS your temple. Stand up for your feelings, good or bad, do not repress them.

To love unconditionally presumes YOU to be BETTER than the one who doesn't treat you right, with love, respect... For if you only love because you are loved you are no better than they, but you ONLY exchange feelings.

Michael loves Jesus because of this too: “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount.”

Thank you so much for posting these beautiful verses.  They again confirm that we need to read between the lines in understanding Scripture. These words of Jesus' go together with the love chapter of 1 Corinthians 13.  They also go with Romans 5:

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die...
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:...
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Adam's sin = all mankind damned
Jesus' death atonement =  all mankind saved
not
Adam's sin = those humans who choose sin are damned
Jesus' death atonement = those humans who choose to believe in him are saved
If something is "free", how can it still have conditions attached to it?

SimPattyK, can you say what the video was about, because it says it is blocked. Thanks!

Bec, just thinking some more about what you said about unconditional love.    If I was a spouse to someone who was abusing me emotionally/physically, I could still love that person, but not put myself in harms way, and would leave or call the police.  However, I don't think God is in any danger, with the worst man can do to him, and scripture talks a lot about his correction and disciplining of wayward people.

[Im_convincedmjalive]

If…….

if we pour a cup of kiss
and one ounce of bliss
can we reverse the poisonous concoction?
if we dare to hope
in a world filled with shattered dreams
can we heal the wounds that bleed from the shards?
if we love unconditionally
in a world filled with hate
can we cure the diseased hearts
before it's too late?
if we shine the scope of our light
in times of darkness
can we make the blind see again?
if we shelter them from the ice cold rain
can we melt their frostbitten tears
and liquify their pain?
let their cup runneth over spilling their fears
into the gutter of the darkest years
a runoff of ruin and waste
if we gently wipe the dirt off their face
and cleanse their souls of a mortal race
can we slow the madness to this haste
of chaos that humankind embrace?
do not ask "if?" but "how?"
do not say "tomorrow" but "now"
the answer is: yes we can
do it now, here we stand
joining hands across the Promised Land

I like your poem Front. There is so much muck, misery, and mind boggling things about our world that we have to process and change before we're anywhere near the promised land. I am a firm believer in actions speak louder than words. So I say I know we will make it to the promised land but we can not be blissfully ignorant to all things of this world.

Good vs. Evil will not stop just because some people find it easier to stay in denial than deal with the reality of how messed up our world is and we allowed it! It is now time to put on our waders and get down in the swamps of our so called world. Someone has to do the dirty work, clearing a path for the people to finally get to that promise land. rr/

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l89CCDyJxpM[/youtube]

Uploaded by TheForwardGaze on Jan 20, 2012

An in-depth look at America's culture of ignorance, greed, injustice, violence and war, and the threat it poses to world peace and prosperity.

This video is a not-for-profit work of serious social-political criticism and is therefore protected speech under the 1st Amendment to the constitution of the United States Of America.

There is a fine line between love and hate just like real and fake.
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[curls]

When talking about the big subject of love one needs to expand one's thoughts further than the love in (sometimes difficult) personal relationships, to the love one can have for mankind in general.

To me, love is wanting the best for others (and myself) and not wanting to harm them (or myself). This isn't a wishy washy 'you can do whatever you like to me, walk all over me and I won't complain' sort of attitude. It's more a case of 'if you treat me badly, I may well distance myself from you for my own good, I will want to see you justly punished if the circumstances warrant that, but above all I will hope for you to see the error of your ways and make appropriate changes. I will not call for you to rot in hell!'

This can be applied to any person or situation, whether it's a personal relationship or a 'wider world' situation.

What, if anything, one can or should, actually DO to lovingly improve another person/situation is a whole other subject - but what I've just talked about is the heart of how I believe love can be shown in difficult circumstances.

[hopi]

When talking about the big subject of love one needs to expand one's thoughts further than the love in (sometimes difficult) personal relationships, to the love one can have for mankind in general.

To me, love is wanting the best for others (and myself) and not wanting to harm them (or myself). This isn't a wishy washy 'you can do whatever you like to me, walk all over me and I won't complain' sort of attitude. It's more a case of 'if you treat me badly, I may well distance myself from you for my own good, I will want to see you justly punished if the circumstances warrant that, but above all I will hope for you to see the error of your ways and make appropriate changes. I will not call for you to rot in hell!'

This can be applied to any person or situation, whether it's a personal relationship or a 'wider world' situation.

What, if anything, one can or should, actually DO to lovingly improve another person/situation is a whole other subject - but what I've just talked about is the heart of how I believe love can be shown in difficult circumstances.

You are so right, but due to everyones personal experience, it's more or less difficult to see the bigger picture. I always was (and am) someone who cares much for the wolrd and mankind and I trusted everyone (just as a child), but I had to learn the hard way, that this behaviour is dangerous sometimes. It doesn't stop me from "doing good" in general and I don't carry hate in my heart. I'm just careful.
Love doesn't require the loss of mind... think while you love... with all your heart.

[suspicious mind]

When talking about the big subject of love one needs to expand one's thoughts further than the love in (sometimes difficult) personal relationships, to the love one can have for mankind in general.

To me, love is wanting the best for others (and myself) and not wanting to harm them (or myself). This isn't a wishy washy 'you can do whatever you like to me, walk all over me and I won't complain' sort of attitude. It's more a case of 'if you treat me badly, I may well distance myself from you for my own good, I will want to see you justly punished if the circumstances warrant that, but above all I will hope for you to see the error of your ways and make appropriate changes. I will not call for you to rot in hell!'

This can be applied to any person or situation, whether it's a personal relationship or a 'wider world' situation.

What, if anything, one can or should, actually DO to lovingly improve another person/situation is a whole other subject - but what I've just talked about is the heart of how I believe love can be shown in difficult circumstances.

You are so right, but due to everyones personal experience, it's more or less difficult to see the bigger picture. I always was (and am) someone who cares much for the wolrd and mankind and I trusted everyone (just as a child), but I had to learn the hard way, that this behaviour is dangerous sometimes. It doesn't stop me from "doing good" in general and I don't carry hate in my heart. I'm just careful.
Love doesn't require the loss of mind... think while you love... with all your heart.

you both have been able to somewhat verbalize what i and i was trying to get across with the article ( remember like ts just because you refer to something does not always have to mean you agree on every point).  we live in a world full of givers and takers . if we are accountable for how we spend what we have been given ( time , talent , money ect.) they are our seeds , are we not responsible to sow them in good soil?  i imagine that christ loved peter. how many times did he have to rebuke him?



you know what though imo there is no one here who is not capable of understanding that the world needs our love.  could it be that the real problem comes when government tries to or is expected to step in and take our place . to become the great equalizer. to sow the seeds we should be sowing ourselves. we all know it isn't working and is most probably making things worse. guess you could say that very system is anti-christ  jmo he did ask us to do it ourselves didn't he? if it was supposed to be done by force wouldn't he have let peter cut off the soldiers other ear  and more?  just a thought

[Starchild]

When talking about the big subject of love one needs to expand one's thoughts further than the love in (sometimes difficult) personal relationships, to the love one can have for mankind in general.

To me, love is wanting the best for others (and myself) and not wanting to harm them (or myself). This isn't a wishy washy 'you can do whatever you like to me, walk all over me and I won't complain' sort of attitude. It's more a case of 'if you treat me badly, I may well distance myself from you for my own good, I will want to see you justly punished if the circumstances warrant that, but above all I will hope for you to see the error of your ways and make appropriate changes. I will not call for you to rot in hell!'

This can be applied to any person or situation, whether it's a personal relationship or a 'wider world' situation.

What, if anything, one can or should, actually DO to lovingly improve another person/situation is a whole other subject - but what I've just talked about is the heart  of how I believe love can be shown in difficult circumstances.

You are so right, but due to everyones personal experience, it's more or less difficult to see the bigger picture. I always was (and am) someone who cares much for the wolrd and mankind and I trusted everyone (just as a child), but I had to learn the hard way, that this behaviour is dangerous sometimes. It doesn't stop me from "doing good" in general and I don't carry hate in my heart. I'm just careful.
Love doesn't require the loss of mind... think while you love... with all your heart.

Hmmm.  Sort of brings this to mind:  "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" (Matt. 10:16).  Distinguishing and using wisdom in the giving of charitable love (to mankind in general) versus the giving of warm love (to those we choose to love on a more personal level).

[veronicafall]

Veronicafall you might be right, but from my experience I can tell you that there are ppl that can't be loved unconditional, because they take EVERYTHING away from you in the name of love. And when they leave you're nothing - only an empty shell with NO content. So to love "unconditional" you have to be careful - just like Bec said...

Hopi, to love unconditionally doesn't mean you must be the guinea pig or accomplice to the one who's trying to harm you. It's more like you rise above the situation and REALLY understand WHY the other one is doing what he's doing. Turning your love into hate for that man is not a solution for yourself, your health, your balance. It's not the solution FOR YOU first of all.
If that love hurts, you should walk out that very moment, not when you already get to the point when all you can do is to hate. If this happens, whose fault is that really?!
Before the actual hate there are many signals that tell you: "hate may be on its way, do something, make a choice!".

As someone said here before: a person who is loved since their birth, they don't end up harming others.
Criminals, violent men/ women with their lovers, thieves, etc. are the result of the whole society, not just their families.

Wanna heal the world (Michael's dream)? You gotta come with even more LOVE where there is hate/ illness.
This is real challenge for me too . Can I/ Will I succeed?

[curls]

you know what though imo there is no one here who is not capable of understanding that the world needs our love.  could it be that the real problem comes when government tries to or is expected to step in and take our place . to become the great equalizer. to sow the seeds we should be sowing ourselves. we all know it isn't working and is most probably making things worse. guess you could say that very system is anti-christ  jmo he did ask us to do it ourselves didn't he? if it was supposed to be done by force wouldn't he have let peter cut off the soldiers other ear  and more?  just a thought

Ah, now you're touching on the 'blame culture' - the common idea nowadays that it always has to be someone else's fault when things aren't right, someone else's responsibility to put things right. As individual members of the human race, we need to start taking back the responsibility for ourselves and our actions that recent governments have been trying (successfully, I might add) to take away from us, and if we are parents, responsibility for the correct upbringing of our children. That's love in action. Too many are too quick to blame teachers, governments, 'society', without seeing that it's in all of our hands -  it always starts with each one of us. Hmm, now where have I heard that before?!

[sailya]

If…….

if we pour a cup of kiss
and one ounce of bliss
can we reverse the poisonous concoction?
if we dare to hope
in a world filled with shattered dreams
can we heal the wounds that bleed from the shards?
if we love unconditionally
in a world filled with hate
can we cure the diseased hearts
before it's too late?
if we shine the scope of our light
in times of darkness
can we make the blind see again?
if we shelter them from the ice cold rain
can we melt their frostbitten tears
and liquify their pain?
let their cup runneth over spilling their fears
into the gutter of the darkest years
a runoff of ruin and waste
if we gently wipe the dirt off their face
and cleanse their souls of a mortal race
can we slow the madness to this haste
of chaos that humankind embrace?
do not ask "if?" but "how?"
do not say "tomorrow" but "now"
the answer is: yes we can
do it now, here we stand
joining hands across the Promised Land

I do love your poems! They are so beautiful and resonating...like Man in the mirror. Also remind me of Michael's poems. 

[GINAFELICIA]

Veronicafall you might be right, but from my experience I can tell you that there are ppl that can't be loved unconditional, because they take EVERYTHING away from you in the name of love. And when they leave you're nothing - only an empty shell with NO content. So to love "unconditional" you have to be careful - just like Bec said...

Hopi, to love unconditionally doesn't mean you must be the guinea pig or accomplice to the one who's trying to harm you. It's more like you rise above the situation and REALLY understand WHY the other one is doing what he's doing. Turning your love into hate for that man is not a solution for yourself, your health, your balance. It's not the solution FOR YOU first of all.
If that love hurts, you should walk out that very moment, not when you already get to the point when all you can do is to hate. If this happens, whose fault is that really?!
Before the actual hate there are many signals that tell you: "hate may be on its way, do something, make a choice!".

As someone said here before: a person who is loved since their birth, they don't end up harming others.
Criminals, violent men/ women with their lovers, thieves, etc. are the result of the whole society, not just their families.

Wanna heal the world (Michael's dream)? You gotta come with even more LOVE where there is hate/ illness.
This is real challenge for me too . Can I/ Will I succeed?

I quote this because I like and I agree with your post.

[MissG]

People think that to love is simple and what is hard is to find a suitable “object” to love or to be loved by.
Mature love means union with the condition to preserve our own integrity and individuality. Love is an active power in humans, a power that crosses the barriers that separate men from his fellows and joins the others. Love enables us to overcome our feelings of isolation and separateness, and yet allows us to be ourselves and maintain our integrity.

What is giving? As simple as it seems the answer is actually full of ambiguities and complexities. The most common misconception is to assume that to give means to "give up" something, deprived ourselves of something, to sacrifice something.
People whose basic orientation is not productive, live the process of giving as if would mean impoverishment, so they  generally refuse to do so.

It is hardly necessary to emphasize the fact that the capacity to love as an act of giving depends on the person. Presupposes the achievement of a predominantly productive orientation in which the person has passed the dependency, narcissistic omnipotence, the desire to exploit others, or to accumulate, and has gained confidence in their own human powers and courage to trust his/ her ability to achieve their own ends. In the same way that we lack these qualities, are afraid to give, and, therefore, to love.

If a person loves only one other and is indifferent to the rest of his fellows, his/ her love is not love but a symbiotic relationship, or an enlarged egotism.
If I can tell someone "I love you", I must be able to say  "I love all of you, through you I love the world, in whom I also love myself."

Here is a great quote of Eckhart (hope the translation goes right):

"If you love yourself, love all others as yourself. While you love another person less than you love yourself, you will not manage to really love yourself, but if you love everyone, including yourself, will love them as a one person and that person is both God and man. Thus, it is a great and virtuous person that loving herself, loves equally all others "(Meister Eckhart).

Wasn’t this quote similar of the one from the Bible? “You will love your fellows as yourself” (can’t find the verse)

Because love depends on the relative absence of narcissism, requires the development of humility, objectivity and reason--->rational faith=rational love.

Having faith in the possibility of love as a social phenomenon and not only exceptional and individual, is to have a rational faith based on understanding the nature of man.

About faith and love we have learnt with Michael and that love learnt we can say is unconditional love.

[MissG]

Well.....the post I just wrote sounds very complicated ... I hope you understand what I mean. It is not my day...*going to my corner and stop breathing*

Just to add that "our" love to MJ is in deed unconditional. We give and get nothing really in return.

[ShyBleuEyes]

Just to add that "our" love to MJ is in deed unconditional. We give and get nothing really in return.
[/quote

the question is; Does Michael feels the same?

[MissG]

I can´t tell. Only MJ knows the answer, but, one can take a look at his concerts and see how people shout their love to him and supports him.

We need to consider that MJ born as an average human has not had an average life and with that comes also the ability to not trust people. so I guess that finding "genuine love" has been a hard task to accomplish.