0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

*

PureLove

  • Hoaxer
  • View Profile
  • 5890
  • To die would be an awfully big adventure.
Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 08:56:58 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I can feel his heart and soul and I believe that there's a special bond between the two of us. It's just the Heart to Heart, Soul to Soul thing.

I feel the same about the bond.
I tried to explain it to myself, why I feel the way I feel and I think it's about energy.

I'm quite a realistic person, but this part of me, which seem kind of idealistic, I just can't deny. On the contrary, I really like to explore it.

What Michael exudes is reflected in the receiver (you, me, others), creating a common energy. At this level, in this environment, we are bond. Invisible for others, just as God is for non-believers, but so real for us.

Someone who didn't get to live it this way yet, can't undestand it either from other's words.
Words are always limiting the felling to almost nothing, to an empty form.

P.S.: I'm not a stalker or an hysterically, jealous fan. Just saying.


Thank you. Well I'm a spiritual person and I believe in God, angels, fairies, destiny, signs, soulmates and so on. I'm such a very romantic one but on the other hand I'm so realistic as well. I am not living to get married with Michael like the way some think on this forum or I'm not a crazy, stalker. Mine is more like a spiritual connection, that's what I feel. If this makes me a crazy person so let me be. I don't mind it.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
PureLove, I do believe you feel a bond. I feel a bond too, and thousands of women feel a bond with Michael. I think it's a bond of love, of caring about each other. It is possible though that it's only imagination. It is also possible that this love we feel generates some material particles/vibrations that influences our spirit, gets us high, creates and invisible bond. And the next step is the ones around us believe we are crazy stalkers :icon_eek:. I mean  :WTF:??

After all - who can explain what love is made of :icon_e_geek:?

To Michael: I am sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable with my comments. But we are not here to hide something, we are here to be true to each other.

Amen Gina.  :th_bravo:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
A bond with and a bond between mean two very different things.

To say you have a bond with [someone or something] expresses only how you feel about that person or thing, it seeks to presume no reciprocation from the other person. You can have a bond with someone or something that doesn't feel bonded to you, it is a strictly personal feeling.

A bond between [you and someone or something] insinuates both parties are in mutual agreement regarding the presence of said bond. In this situation, MJ hasn't weighed in on feeling any bonds with anyone besides his children and his family and I think it is presumptive to suggest to know how he would/does feel about anything so personal as a bond with another person, much less proclaim the feeling is mutual. The whole notion seems to express a complete dismissal of his opinion in a dehumanizing fashion and I think that is troublesome.

@Purelove, if this was an English language issue then at least now you know. I will say your English is very good. I forget that you are not a native speaker when I read your posts.

Bec, God bless. Thank you girl. I didn't know the difference between 'a bond between' and 'bond with'. Thank you so much for making it clear for me.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Where is PureLove´s blog? I would like to read it.

Gema, what I posted on my blog are the same posts I posted on the 'Messages to Michael' thread 2 years ago. They're not something I wrote new or recent. So probably some of you have already read them. As I wrote to veronica, I'm such a very spiritual person and I believe in destiny. If to meet Michael is in my destiny, it will happen, if it's not then it won't happen. I'm not living to meet Michael and I DO NOT HAVE ANY EXPECTATIONS! Don't get me wrong, I wanted to write it in capital letters because some people thought that I'm an obsessive person. On the contrary I wrote that this is my last year with the hoax. I do not believe an obsessive, stalker fan could leave the hoax and this forum behind. I'll be loving Michael forever, that's another case but I have no expectations. It's all written in our destiny.

@Souza

Do I want to kill you? Absolutely not. But yesterday? Absolutely yes!  :icon_lol: I don't want this topic to get longer as this is not the place to talk about it and it's not the issue we need to talk about. Souza, we perceive things very differently. You go with your mind in most cases. You prefer to be realistic but I go with my feelings. I tried to explain above, I hope it helped you understand a little what I was trying to say. I just wish that you wrote about your concern with a PM to me instead of writing on the forum. My blog was not the issue here but it became one. It's maybe just me but I believe that a friendly concern should be presented politely and with a PM. Trust me, if I received such a PM from you, I wouldn't ignore you. And thank you for your concern. There is nothing to worry about.


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
About PureLove... I know you mean well  :icon_e_smile:
Hopefully she will realize that in the end...

No worries jono. I'm in a total realization mood for the past 34 years!   :icon_e_wink:
Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 09:42:00 AM by PureLove
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

*

GINAFELICIA

  • Hoaxer
  • View Profile
  • 6506
  • Playing it safe is the riskiest choice.
Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 09:13:42 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Front must be laughing her/his ass out...
I'm sure Front has a great time :ghsdf: .

Well, I hope your expectations will be fulfilled someday.
Bye!
Don't be upset veronica.
None of us knows nothing as absolute certainty, not even the ones who feel the bond with Michael. You could be right and all those connections are just coincidences. Or the others could be right and Front is indeed our man. For the moment there's no way we can know it for sure.
I am stupid enough to take the risk of being fooled. Well, I will probably get hurt in end but....well, I can accept it if it comes from such a charming fake/"fake" :icon_mrgreen:.

friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 09:31:45 AM
I've been laid up in bed for the past 24 hours due to a stomach flu...so I missed out on the bulk on the discussion.  And I know that some might feel the topic is off-topic....IF we believe that Front is Mike (or even just that Mike reads here), then I don't think that a discussion of "loving Mike" is off-topic at all, nor do I think he'd think so.  Actually, IMO, one of the reasons for the hoax...even if not a prime reason...is precisely THIS topic.  Can Mike finally KNOW that he is loved, not just for the 'persona' but also for the man?  I don't think that he was sure of that right up to his 'death' (which is incredibly sad if true)....he lived his entire life not knowing.  I can FEEL Mike on the other end of the screen sometimes...engulfed in reading our comments...and I often wonder what he FEELS on his end. 

If you are reading here Mike...I just want you to know that THIS 'fan' LOVES YOU....heart, mind, and soul (you can throw 'body' somewhere in there too  :icon_e_wink:).  I have always LOVED your 'persona'...the way watching you perform in any capacity awakens ALL my senses, to this day...NO other 'persona' has that effect on me, nor ever will.  And I have always LOVED 'the man'....which no matter how much the 'persona' shone through....'the man' was ALWAYS there too, just underneath the surface...lurking in the background (as he still is now  :icon_e_wink:).  How could the 'persona' be without 'the man' or 'the man' without the 'persona'?  I'm sure both brought the greatest of joys....and the toughest of pains. 

This hoax, for me, has 'bridged' the two together more so than ever...and I have been a fan for 35 years.  And the glue that binds them together is the intimacy that this 'adventure' has allowed.  I FEEL you've been here from the start, under several masks....and if so, I thank you for sharing yourself in THE most intimate of ways.  What higher form of intimacy is there than in being granted access to someone's heart, mind and soul?  Access that you have always longed for more of because of the love you've felt for that someone.  Meeting you physically would be one of THE best highlights of my entire life....I would carry that momment with me to my death bed.  But it's not a 'condition' on whether or not my love for you is real, nor is it necessary in order for me to say that I KNOW the persona and I KNOW the man....and that I LOVE them both.

This adventure has also been one of the best highlights of my life....one that I will also carry with me forever.  When you said 'it's all for love' and 'for the fans', you weren't kidding!  This fan thanks you and loves you more than ever.

@Wish, Love4Michael and Sim...thanks for your comments, I love you guys (even though I've never met you  :icon_e_wink:).  Wish...that gematria stuff always leaves me amazed!  Thanks for sharing your continued fascination with it  :icon_razz:

With L.O.V.E. always.
Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 09:41:45 AM by BeTheChange
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
The beauty of Michael Jackson is found in his heart and soul...his enormous talent is a bonus and what a bonus it is.

~PLAY the moments...PAUSE the memories...STOP the pain...REWIND the happiness~

*

sweetsunsetwithMJ

  • Hoaxer
  • View Profile
  • 2626
  • Michael I am looking forward to your BAM!!
Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 09:39:30 AM
TMZ is beginning to be "The Michael Zone" as somebody on this Forum once said but TMZ should change its name into TFZ "The Front Zone"  :omg: :LolLolLolLol: :abouttime:

@Front....thank you for your art!
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
I WANNA BE WHERE YOU ARE!!

*

PureLove

  • Hoaxer
  • View Profile
  • 5890
  • To die would be an awfully big adventure.
Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 09:40:23 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've been laid up in bed for the past 24 hours due to a stomach flu...so I missed out on the bulk on the discussion. 



 :bearhug:
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 10:00:22 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've been laid up in bed for the past 24 hours due to a stomach flu...so I missed out on the bulk on the discussion. 



 :bearhug:

Aww thanks PureLove...I am feeling better than I was yesterday and hopefully not as good as I'll feel tomorrow  :icon_razz:.  And thanks for being so open as to share your blog on here...I didn't even know it was there lol...but I plan on reading it.

 :bearhug:

With L.O.V.E. always.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
The beauty of Michael Jackson is found in his heart and soul...his enormous talent is a bonus and what a bonus it is.

~PLAY the moments...PAUSE the memories...STOP the pain...REWIND the happiness~

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 10:09:32 AM
I am joining the ranks of the crazy stalkers here because I love Michael unconditionally, without question.  I don’t care about his personal habits, his moods, his eccentricities.  None of that matters.  It doesn’t cloud my love for him because its deeper than the exterior.  I feel bonded to the person that I do know, and not put off by the person that I don’t.  We never know anybody entirely but ourselves because we cannot look into anyone else’s mind and see what they are thinking, or into their hearts to know how they are feeling.  We just have to love from within us and let that be the base, let that be good enough.  And that’s how I love Michael Jackson, from my heart.  I don’t love him as a woman would love a man she was dying to spend the rest of her days with.  I love him as a human being who has suffered unfairly and extremely by the hands of people who thought of him as an asset rather than a man.  I love him for being the kind of man who continued to do what he wanted with his life in the face of adversity and scandal.  I love him for standing strong and determined without losing his dignity and sense of compassion.  I love him for still being able to forgive in the face of the worse betrayals known to man.  I love him for being able to stand in front of billions and cry openly and say I love you, traits that most men would consider sissy.  I love him for being that man.  So here I stand, loving him openly.  I confess.  There are so many proven reasons to love Michael already that what ever it is, any dark secrets or revelations that I don’t know about him would not change it.  Nothing! He is a human being first and foremost.  But he has throughout his life even as a child shown that he is the kind of human being that is rare and special in that he has always allowed himself to show empathy and compassion, regardless.  That he failed to receive much in his later years and became so targeted and still remained true to himself speaks volumes for me.  That’s what I see and that’s what I love.  I L.O.V.E. Michael Jackson.  Always have and always will.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
"Don't stop this child, He's the father of man
Don't cross his way, He's part of the plan
I am that child, but so are you
You've just forgotten, Just lost the clue.”

MJ "Magical Child"
Still Rocking my World…
   and leaving me Speechless!

“True goodbyes are the ones never said

*

paula-c

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 10:17:22 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've just read Sarahli's thread about the clues that validates Front as MJ and I had a REVELATION: we're crazy!

Front must be laughing her/his ass out...

Jesus Christ!






It is necessary have care with what it is said
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

*

PureLove

  • Hoaxer
  • View Profile
  • 5890
  • To die would be an awfully big adventure.
Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 10:41:14 AM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've been laid up in bed for the past 24 hours due to a stomach flu...so I missed out on the bulk on the discussion. 



 :bearhug:

Aww thanks PureLove...I am feeling better than I was yesterday and hopefully not as good as I'll feel tomorrow  :icon_razz:.  And thanks for being so open as to share your blog on here...I didn't even know it was there lol...but I plan on reading it.

 :bearhug:

With L.O.V.E. always.

You will feel better tomorrow hon. Just take some rest and try to get vitamin c a lot.  :icon_e_smile: Ahhh I wish I never decided to take my posts on the blog thing. Actually I wish I kept them to myself. If I knew they were going to be such a problem here ... They're more like parts from my MJ diary. I'm a writer and I like to write a lot and it looks like my imagination made some people thought that I'm having MJ hallucinations and spending my entire time with it.

Anyways, get better soon girl. I'm missing you and your positive energy here.
  :bearhug:
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

*

CC

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 12:15:53 PM
Michael Jackson
MJ Drawing of the day: “Little Me” (1985).
Ver traducción

Me gusta ·  · Compartir · 11.237808330 · Hace aproximadamente una hora ·
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Some men see things as they are and say: WHY?
I dream things that never were and say: WHY NOT?

*

Its her

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 12:37:24 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I remember when Front SAID he was BACK, and SAID he was MJ, last year and we were STILL all wondering if he was or if he was TS or what :icon_exclaim: :icon_exclaim: :icon_exclaim: As I remember, Bec, YOU  :bearhug: were the one all wide eyed and stunned at what was revealed :icon_e_surprised: :icon_e_surprised: :icon_e_surprised: :icon_e_biggrin: and that NO one else was excited about it, as if it zoomed over everyone's heads, instead of getting IN. Remember that? :)

Then he just went back to playing around with his moldy cakes and pies and clues, and announcing things about the Hoax and Bam, as if it was a joke he meant   to do, because OBVIOUSLY we were not ready, yet. NOT saying his posts were not important and sincere, but, I felt like that guy was trying to DISCLOSE and DECLARE Michael Jackson :icon_e_surprised:, the real guy, then.

It's hard to explain, because he kidded around a LOT, but still, I wasn't certain myself why most everyone stepped over what he SAID. I was watching YOU, because I thought you thought you saw HIM, too, but when he went back to kidding around, we all went back to kidding around, too. He also made it sound like he was TS, but Souza said they were two different people.  :confused: :confused: So, we were all still confused.


I remember I had a few wide eyed stunned moments, yes, but I don't remember one I had that no one else got. Was it the numbers post? I remember getting all geeked out with back math and being convinced (for the first time lol) that back was in the house.

Then I think later I called him a troll again because I guessed the date right. He let me "win". I figured it was too easy.

Idk...that doesn't sound like the one I'm thinking of. It ought to be easy enough to find. It was pretty early in Front's history here.  You were saying something LIKE, "GUYS---do you know what this MEANS?????" I'll look tonight when I come back.

Bingo! A hit!

Post #981:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login 

Quote
Does anyone else realize the implications of this development?

I mean, like the staggering weight of... this?

It's not just me, right? I mean, this is... like... a big deal.

Then, within a week or so, @ post 1322 it's back to not knowing anymore.  :-\ I'm not making any judgments about you; I'm saying you were one of the firsts, if not THE first to SEE him. Then the numbers were a big thrilling confirmation...Then, little bits generated BY FRONT, made everyone unsure, again, even you.

He's twisted :thjajaja121: and seems to LIKE pushing and pulling us in opposite directions. :Pulling_hair: :screaming-7365: But the information IS THERE; He did say he (Back) never left, and since TS was the only one we heard from for years, TS must be who he was referring to. TS himself, said he had been lurking from the get-go, but only posted after a time here. Front DID, in code say, on purpose, that he is Back: "He IS here", or, "Here he is". The problem with that is that he did NOT say,"Here he is, AGAIN!" which would have resonated with something we all heard real MJ say once. It would have fit perfectly--well, maybe TOO perfectly. :icon_e_confused:

He could have forgotten "how it goes" (sheeesh, get it right, Front, ha ha :icon_rolleyes:),  but I think the fans have committed all things MJ to indelible memory--ha ha--where maybe, MJ? not so much. Ok, excused. OR, Front could have done this on  :bowdown: purpose to be ambiguous and further mess wid our heads... :Pulling_hair:

It MAY be that "Front" was dreamed up as a kind of a charming gargoyle-bouncer  >:( :affraid: persona for TS, promoting the fact that there IS a complex, well-thought-out reason and message in the Hoax, and he's here making certain people get it that he has TS' back. I think they are the same people, but I can't IMAGINE TS telling people off like Front has!! ha ha ha. I think Front is an ingenious "device" to keep MJ/TS safe, here and protect the mission of the Hoax. It's possible. It works.  8)

There is, too, the fact that Front's appearance was predicted, and nothing else came to be in that (7+7+7)three weeks EXCEPT Front...There is a verse in the Bible which says, "line upon line, precept upon precept..." which means something like that there is an unbroken thread throughout the truth of a matter; everything which rings true is connected to the other things ringing true, with each layer yielding more light on the matter.

There has always been someone steering the Hoax, and it's the ones saying the same thing, or picking up where another has left off, who are most likely all the same person, the true PuppetMaster, Michael Jackson. He may have been aping the personalities of, say T. Riley or others to throw us off, but, if anyone else IS posting FOR him, it is from a verbatim scripted directive. We do know how HANDS ON MJ has always been. Does a leopard change his spots?  :D
There are some REALLY insightful things in that thread, especially in hindsight!!!!  :icon_bounce:


I got a kick out of this one: post #983 from Andrea: 
 


Quote
This latest development is...interesting...to say the least.  I am proceeding with caution, as always.  But this is quite exciting obviously if this means what some of us may be thinking.  This could be a reason why TS has been so silent.  I'm reminded of the scene in V for Vendetta when V says ominously, "MY turn", right before kicking everyone's a$$.
:thjajaja121:
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
ONLY Believe...

*

Andrea

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 12:39:25 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Michael Jackson
MJ Drawing of the day: “Little Me” (1985).
Ver traducción

Me gusta ·  · Compartir · 11.237808330 · Hace aproximadamente una hora ·



 8)
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

*

Sarahli

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 12:41:35 PM
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Michael Jackson
MJ Drawing of the day: “Little Me” (1985).
Ver traducción

Me gusta ·  · Compartir · 11.237808330 · Hace aproximadamente una hora ·

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Excellent CC!  :th_bravo:





Front's DRAWING we received just before^^^

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


:icon_lol:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
We are here for you Michael and will always love you whatever happens.
'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them."

*

Andrea

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 12:45:25 PM
What's neat about that 'little me' drawing is Front had quoted everlastinglove who mentioned "little Michael" just recently plus it's a sketch that doesn't look as 'professional' as some of the others, like it was drawn within a few minutes...much like the monkey.
Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 01:02:21 PM by Andrea
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions

*

bec

Re: Official back & Front thread
May 18, 2012, 12:50:00 PM
@It's her:

Quote
Then, within a week or so, @ post 1322 it's back to not knowing anymore.   I'm not making any judgments about you; I'm saying you were one of the firsts, if not THE first to SEE him. Then the numbers were a big thrilling confirmation...Then, little bits generated BY FRONT, made everyone unsure, again, even you.

Yup, that was one hell of a ride those days. Back n forth n back n forth, is he/isn't he? Oy my brain hurts.

I was so scared to be wrong.

Still am, a little, but I try to just forget about that possibility.

Do or do not, there is no try!!

Ok, sometimes I do forget about it and sometimes I fail at that and do not.
friendly
0
funny
0
informative
0
agree
0
disagree
0
pwnt
0
like
0
dislike
0
late
0
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
No reactions
Are you entertained?

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
Repost: Official Dave Dave thread

Started by *Mo* « 1 2 ... 7 8 » Dave Dave

105 Replies
38001 Views
Last post February 28, 2013, 01:06:19 AM
by Girl_In_the_Mirror
550 Replies
31296 Views
Last post February 24, 2010, 05:05:11 PM
by steffmaster1
531 Replies
43637 Views
Last post July 29, 2012, 07:02:57 PM
by JesusLover05
3 Replies
4177 Views
Last post May 07, 2010, 12:11:41 AM
by MJROCKSMYSOCKSOFF
5 Replies
2572 Views
Last post May 03, 2010, 08:14:04 AM
by somekindofsign

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal