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[curls]

Thanks iamhere, so someone called Murray's mobile from his home landline? Girlfriend probably, wouldn't you think?  Do you think there's something fishy here?

EDIT: Sorry, just reread your original post, you're saying the call from Murray's home was to Amir's mobile, not Murray's?  LOL maybe I need to unearth that part of the trial!

[Echo]

MJ is smart , and everyone knows as soon as someone dies they instantly transcend their earthly misdeeds.. or perceived misdeeds. He knew death was the only sure way he could revive his brand so his kids could have some sort of cushy life, because lord knows they were all going no where in 2009 pre-D day. With two strikes against them and having to forever bear that name, something had to be done and desperate times call for desperate measures and I think MJ was pretty desperate. His brand was in the gutter with seeming no hope of resurrection. Except for death, and he knew that, because everyone knows that. It's unspoken truth. As soon as some celebrity dies they get honored and their brand value increases, just automatically. So it's what he had to do, for his kids, for his mother, for himself.

So sure, he could have died normally, but when does MJ do anything normal? He didn't have a normal life, and it was all orchestrated and choreographed by himself post-1980 or so... so it stands to reason, just common sense here, that his death should follow suit.

Forget Murray, he's just a distraction. An actor, a player, a character. He probably did actually go to jail. What's 2 years for a couple mil? Who wouldn't do that? In my opinion, none of it matters, it's all just a show. Enjoy the gifts MJ left us, he's done. Well, done with his public "life" anyway. That's why everything has his stink all over it, because he IS in control, like he always was, but I no longer think this has any big meaning or will culminate in any big Bamsday event. It just is. Entertainment. I was entertained so I'm happy. I hope he is too, and I hope it all worked out the way he expected, but I doubt he cares because his "estate" has made a killing and that's all that mattered in the end. That was the goal, I believe, so mission accomplished.

Agreed. Mission accomplished. God Bless Michael.

[gwynned]

Mission accomplished?  Hardly.  No one would go to all this trouble to create such an absurd story just to escape.  I say he comes back.  And of course, no one believes that.  What kind of surprise would it be if everyone knew it was going to happen other than a few intrepid and crazy souls like us.

[curls]

Gwynned, I don't think bec ever said MJ did it 'just to escape'.  She's saying he did it to make money, as his 'brand' and reputation were pretty much destroyed.  Correct me if I've misunderstood you bec.

Trouble I have with this theory is that his brand and reputation were flying high in the 80s when many of us think he first started planning his hoax.

I've always thought entertainment, or maybe showmanship is a better word, is the main driving force behind his hoax, doing it just because he can.  Making money as a 'dead icon' is a happy, but much needed, as things turned out in later years, by-product IMO.

[Echo]

Mission accomplished?  Hardly.  No one would go to all this trouble to create such an absurd story just to escape.  I say he comes back.  And of course, no one believes that.  What kind of surprise would it be if everyone knew it was going to happen other than a few intrepid and crazy souls like us.

It would be quite a surprise if MJ resurfaced, however I could not stomach the colossal chaos, pressure, scrutiny and cruelty that MJ would have to sustain from the public. I admittedly would love to see MJ come back -  primarily for fundamentally selfish reasons. But it is not all about me being entertained. In this instance I cannot be selfish. MJ's joy is and always will be paramount...  :icon_e_wink:   

[curls]

Echo, do you really think that would be the reaction of the public?  I don't!  I think most would let out a few choice words in amazement and then they'd be thrilled!  Haters will always hate, the tabloids will do what tabloids do, but in something as mega as MJ returning I reckon the general public would go with their hearts, not with the tabloids.

[Echo]

Echo, do you really think that would be the reaction of the public?  I don't!  I think most would let out a few choice words in amazement and then they'd be thrilled!  Haters will always hate, the tabloids will do what tabloids do, but in something as mega as MJ returning I reckon the general public would go with their hearts, not with the tabloids.

Hello Curls, I have clarified my thoughts for your review. And thank you so much for asking, it was a prompting to compose my thoughts and feelings in a way that I have not in the past.

To me Michael was a precious gift to humanity.  As Mother Nature would have it, my gratefulness and love for Michael has grown more in his absence beyond analytical comprehension.  In my denial to accept Michaels's death, principally under the reported state of affairs that he died,  one flicker of hope is a substantiated death hoax. I think that there are four driving factors that would warrant a death hoax.

1.   A spiritual calling
2.   To assure the financial security and safety for his children
3.   An escape from the wearisome pressures of public life
4.   An escape from press & media inaccuracies; including gross exaggeration

I would be blissfully elated if Michael reemerged.  I would embrace his return with open arms in love. However, his return would be poignant. There would be an international mass media circus; a media feeding fury beyond any fraction imaginable. I have no interest in witnessing the media dissect and mutilate Michael's judgment and character.  I would loathe the cold-bloodedness and powerfully unforgiving commentary. In addition, his resurfacing would cause subsequent confrontational fallout, innocent casualties and irreparable collateral damage. This would make me sad for Michael and his children.

If this is a death hoax, I pray that Michael is living at peace in seclusion with a joyful heart. Whatever is best for him...

[iamhere4mj]

Well said echo.

I know for myself there have been highs and lows during the past 5 years but the one thing that I never wondered was if this really was a hoax. With all of the slip ups and inconsistencies it just made sense to me that the world was being played by Michael.

However, I do believe that this was and still is not a game. Something happened for Michael to have to leave.

But if Michael did die why after 5 years are there still things being said and done that just doesn't make any sense?

Granted, you can expect some discrepancies and fall out from family members when a person passes away but for all of that to happen the moment he died at 2:26 PM was just the start of what we have been given over the past 5 years. And think about the autopsy report - no mention of the burn.

I don't want to find Michael but I do want to know what happened and why it happened. Even Katherine said she just wants to know what happened to her son. And that in itself I think was a shout out to the believers.

I will continue on this great adventure with Michael leading the way.

Love you Michael!

[curls]

I maintain that we over complicate this maybe because we look at a death hoax through our own eyes, thinking about what would drive us, personally to fake our own death. That naturally leads to 'something serious'.  We forget we are dealing with an eccentric showman here, for whom a death hoax must've seemed a great personal adventure as well as 'the greatest show on earth'.

BUT ... it's only 'the greatest show on earth' if he comes back. A handful of crazy believers doesn't make for 'the greatest'!

AND ... the great personal adventure might, away from his previous reality, not be that great after all.

SO ... the hoax might be one big fail.  He may find himself now in a place far worse than any the media/haters/leeches/traitors may have put him in.

And that's what would make me sad.

[Echo]

Well said echo.

I know for myself there have been highs and lows during the past 5 years but the one thing that I never wondered was if this really was a hoax. With all of the slip ups and inconsistencies it just made sense to me that the world was being played by Michael.

However, I do believe that this was and still is not a game. Something happened for Michael to have to leave.

Thank you.

I have a been a silent observer of this board for several years. One observation that I have made, is that everyone is not on one accord relative to the definition of "hoax". A "hoax" is a malicious or humorous deception. I do not think that Michael orchestrated a hoax. I suspect that Michael is alive and agree that something happened for Michael to have to leave.

My curiosity too is peaked.  :icon_e_wink:

[Echo]

I maintain that we over complicate this maybe because we look at a death hoax through our own eyes, thinking about what would drive us, personally to fake our own death. That naturally leads to 'something serious'.  We forget we are dealing with an eccentric showman here, for whom a death hoax must've seemed a great personal adventure as well as 'the greatest show on earth'.

BUT ... it's only 'the greatest show on earth' if he comes back. A handful of crazy believers doesn't make for 'the greatest'!

AND ... the great personal adventure might, away from his previous reality, not be that great after all.

SO ... the hoax might be one big fail.  He may find himself now in a place far worse than any the media/haters/leeches/traitors may have put him in.

And that's what would make me sad.

Curls, I love this thread.  To clarify my position, my understanding of a hoax is malicious or humorous deception. I suspect that Michael is alive, but do not think his intent is to entertain his public. As I stated in my earlier post, I believe that Michael's departure was based on reasons for self-preservation and the safety and security of his children. I believe what we have witnessed is a masquerade.

You are right, what is complicated is the paradox of mental conception.

My feelings, thoughts and theories after 5 years?

Well...I am going to take tons of heat for this one  :compute:  :over-react-smiley:

I think that we, who think that Michael Jackson is alive for whatever reason, have lost our way. Too much time and attention is focused on mindless speculation. There needs to be more critical thinking.

[curls]

Ok Echo, lets not use the word 'hoax' then!  Does 'faked death' suit you better?

So tell me, in the spirit of critical thinking, how does needing to leave for the sake of 'self-preservation and the safety and security of his children' tie in with a 'death', so elaborate, so complicated and so meticulously planned, involving so many people, that 5 years of investigation by those who question it leads them nowhere but awash with mindless speculation?  Self-preservation surely requires no trace, no suspicions, nothing. Would he or could he even have put all this together if he had to leave?

Love this thread too, echo!

[Echo]

Hi Curls,

We certainly are on one accord that MJ lives.

My referral to critical thinking is to determine how we can better control the structure of the investigation. I think it has been a bit inefficient. However, we first must concede where we are going with the research.

What is the purpose?

Tell me something, what is your objective?

My objective is to secure conclusive evidence that MJ lives.

When do we begin to apply our energy to resolution?

I think that there are too many topics and questions that cause confusion. An important part of critical thinking is calculating both short-term and long-term outcomes for each alternative. We must figure out a way to skillfully organize our thinking and impressions. Organizational charts are in order.

Below is an overview to Problem Solving 101.

I think that we consistently miss the mark on numbers 3, 4 and 5.

What do you think we can we do better?

5 Step Problem Solving Strategy

1.   Specify the problem - a first step to
solving a problem is to identify it as specifically as possible. It involves evaluating the present state and determining how it differs from the goal state.
2.   Analyze the problem - analyzing the problem involves learning as much as you can about it. It may be necessary to look beyond the obvious, surface situation, to stretch your imagination and reach for more creative options.
o   seek other perspectives
o   be flexible in your analysis
o   consider various strands of impact
o   brainstorm about all possibilities and implications
o   research problems for which you lack complete information. Get help.
3.   Formulate possible solutions - identify a wide range of possible solutions.
o   try to think of all possible solutions
o   be creative
o   consider similar problems and how you have solved them
4.   Evaluate possible solutions - weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each solution. Think through each solution and consider how, when, and where you could accomplish each. Consider both immediate and long-term results. Mapping your solutions can be helpful at this stage.
5.   Choose a solution - consider 3 factors:
o   compatibility with your priorities
o   amount of risk
o   practicality

:icon_e_smile:

[curls]

LOL Echo, it sounds like you've been on a management training course!

I'll have to get back to you on this as I don't have time right now to properly formulate my thoughts, but my initial response is to ask why you think we have not covered all of these bullet points as our investigation has evolved and progressed over the past five years.  We may not have had a flip chart or a formal 'tick list', but that doesn't mean we haven't been thorough!

Please, now that you're no longer a silent observer, tell us exactly where we've gone wrong and if you genuinely believe it's possible from 5 Steps to get all the answers, proof and solutions you need to 'solve' MJ's death.

[michaelslady]

wow I feel like im enrolled in a university class. maybe we should be private investigators lol. Anyway, some days all the endless thoughts running thru my head on this make me wanna  :screaming-7365:.

This cannot be explained easily. Its just tooooo much to say that he simply did it for the kids. He could've done the 50 concerts and that would've provided financial security for the kids. Although I never bought the rumors of him being broke, I think the music catalogs that he owns that contain 755,000 songs will provide financially for his great great grandchildren. So I do not think he needed the money for his kids. Theres more than enough of that to go around.

Everything is too crazy in all of this. Here are my thoughts and questions in no particular order but just random:

What really happened at that house on 6/25/2009? Was it even MJ at that house? Did he ever live in that house? Did he ever even go to Bahrain as reported? If so, was it him that came back from Bahrain? Why did Murray say that Mike left the room, so he went to make a call and when he came back MJ was dead? Why no grief from the family? Why all the slipups, inconsistencies, lies? Why did Katherine tell 2 different stories regarding Murray? First she said he told her at the hospital that MJ had died. Then in an interview on tv a few months later, she specifically said that she never has seen or spoken with Murray.  :smiley-vault-misc-150:

Why was Joe Jackson promoting his record label on tv the day after the "death" and smiling saying that the family was fine? Why did the kids look oh so bored at the funeral? Why were none of MJ good close friends like Diana Ross at his memorial? Why did Janet lie and give 2 different locations as to her whereabouts when she got the news of MJ being in the hospital? Why did Kathy Hilton tell a story about MJ living at a motel during the time he was supposedly living at the house? Why is there no doctor, nurse, patient or other eyewitness account of MJ being at the hospital? Absolute silence. Why are all of MJ personal doctors all on tv revealing his confidential medical information? That is illegal here in the US. Why is his family not complaining about the docs telling his medical history out in public?  :icon_mad:

Why did Elizabeth Taylor tweet that her friend was doing well and breathing on his own on 6/25/2009? Why is the death certificate not signed? Why did the chief of police that was over this case resign what like 2 weeks after this happened? He had been on the force for what like 30 years? But he suddenly resigns in the midst of this high profile case. Why did the video of MJ stepping out of a coroners van surface? Which to me looked very real.  :WTF:

Why do many of his friends and family still speak of him in the present tense? Where in the world is Janet and her "new" hubby? For her and MJ to be so close, you never see her. Why no name on his tomb at Forest Lawn? Why did Latoya say in her book that her and her fiancé took MJ out of his coffin and sat him up so that the police could get another hair sample?  :omg: She says but she kept a sheet over his face the whole time. Then why did she say that his gloves were duct taped to his hands? hmmm. Who duct tapes gloves to a dead person? I never knew you could put a dead body in a seated position. Why the longgggg wait until the burial?

Why did Latoya say that she went back to look in his coffin more than 10 times BEFORE the burial? Why did Katherine say on tv that the kids went to view his body in the morgue at least 10 times? What child does that? What coroner allows that? Why did Latoya end her book by saying that everyday, she sits and wonders if her brothers body is really in that casket? None of the family was there when he was actually buried!!!! Why not? Are they in on it? Or is the joke on them? Why did Joe say that he didn't know where Mikes body was?  :affraid:

Is Murray even a real doctor? Why did Lisa Marie up and move to London and said she will never return to the US? Really? And her dads huge estate is here that she is heir to? Ever pay attention to her weird husband Michael, who seemed to meet and marry her out of nowhere?  :WTF: Was it really MJ at the 02 announcement in London? Why did Latoya tell us to watch the Illusionist movie?

So many unanswered questions. NOTHING adds up. All the numerology, the family being weird and evasive. Why all the toys and silliness in the courtroom during the Murray trial? Why is MJ an "alleged" victim on an "alleged" date? Why the weird missing bellybutton autopsy photo? Why the weird MJ on the gurney pic? Why Murray only serves 2 years and walks down the street with no conscious? MJ has millions of fans globally and yet this man murders MJ and walks down the street and goes to the beach like nothing happened? Maybe because it didn't.

Is there a reason MJ left us? Was it a Biblical reason? Is his message Biblical? I can elaborate more on this if necessary. Was it a "powers that be/illuminati" reason? Was he kidnapped and held against his will, but still have a means to communicate? Is he in a coma? Did the family concoct the "MJ is dead" story themselves because they were tired of the way he was being treated? Is he in a mental institution because he lost his touch with reality after all the lies and accusations? Can the Jacksons be trusted? Are they on his side? Was Dick Gregorys story true about MJ being near death and dehydrated and him taking him to the hospital before that fateful day?

I'm sure I have much more to add to this. I will have to clear my brain a bit and come back later.  :Pulling_hair: