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RK

Hi Do. I assume that the majority of members on this forum are convinced of Michael's innocence in this matter, hence the desire to see his vindication that is so evident. As well as all of the material 'out there' that we are all familiar with (from both sides), for me, what has always been overlooked is that Michael never hid his love and care for children. It was on display for the whole world to see even down to the brass statues around the grounds of Neverland that depicted boys and girls at play in many settings.
In the recently exposed cases  of  Jimmy Saville or Rolf Harris, it seems  these two hid that aspect of their lives beneath the veneer of a somewhat more 'traditional' projection of appearances, not flaunt it before the eyes of the world. If something untoward was Michael's agenda here, then being so open about his desire to be surrounded by children and childhood in general would not be a smart thing to do I  would think.
I probably would not be an impartial debater on this topic I am afraid, as this is the reason I am here in a nut shell. Because I am incensed to the very depths of my soul that a man can be vilified, crucified, ridiculed, judged, robbed and every other adjective you can think of that is applicable here because he may be a little different or eccentric. I also want to add right about here that I also don't think MJ was perfect or some saint either, he was just a person, albeit a very talented and kind person who lived in the most unusual of circumstances that we call celebrity.
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RK

Interesting reading.....
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Do

Hi Shy and RK,
Thank you for your answers, please don't think that I go with every lie that is told in the media. Up untill Robson and Safechuck came out with their accusations, I wouldn't even start to discuss this. In the cases of the Chandlers and Arvizos it was pretty evident that money was the reason behind all of it. However, after Robson (who vehemently denied abuse in the past, even testified in favor of Michael) and Safechuck (never read something about him in his adult years), and after I read some quotes of Ken Lanning (former FBI agent and now consultant in crimes against children), it is not too crazy to ask yourself the question: are these men lying or not?

Quote
Child-lover molesters almost never use violence for sex, said Lanning. Instead, they groom and seduce and manipulate and use cooperation to get what they want out of the child. "I can't tell you how many cases where there are letters from the victim written to the accused, saying, 'You're the nicest person I ever met,' or 'You've been so good to me,'" said Lanning. Many victims don't tell anyone of the inappropriate behavior because they are considered "compliant child victims." "A child can't legally consent to having sex, but some of them aren't necessarily fighting him off," said Lanning. "They're developmentally immature, and later they feel ashamed and embarrassed that they cooperated in their victimization."

Because victims of acquaintance exploitation usually have been carefully seduced and often do not realize they are victims, they repeatedly and voluntarily return to the offender. Society and the criminal-justice system have a difficult time understanding this. If a boy is molested by his neighbor, teacher, or clergy member, why does he "allow" it to continue? Most likely he may not initially realize he is a victim. Some victims are simply willing to trade sex for attention, affection, and gifts and do not believe they are victims. The sex itself might even be enjoyable. The offender may be treating them better than anyone has ever treated them.

Most of these victims never disclose their victimization. Younger children may believe they did something "wrong" or "bad" and are afraid of getting into trouble. Older children may be more ashamed and embarrassed. Many victims not only do not disclose, but they strongly deny it happened when confronted. In one case several boys took the stand and testified concerning the high moral character of the accused molester. When the accused molester changed his plea to guilty, he admitted that the boys who testified for him were also victims.

The most common reasons that victims do not disclose are stigma of homosexuality, lack of societal understanding, presence of positive feelings for the offender, embarrassment or fear over their victimization, or do not believe they are victims. Since most of the offenders are male, the stigma of homosexuality is a serious problem for male victims. Although being seduced by a male child molester does not necessarily make a boy a homosexual, the victims do not understand this. If a victim does disclose, he believes that he is risking significant ridicule by his peers and lack of acceptance by his family.

And:

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(It wouldn't let me copy and paste the text)


In the Savile case, the claims of abuse came forward almost a year after his death.

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Again, I'm NOT saying Michael was an abuser, I AM saying: how can we 1000% sure these man (Robson and Safechuck) are lying?
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"Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind."
Bertrand Russel

Hi Do,

Have you read the link i put inhere Do? vindicate MJ (what the hell is wrong with Wade Robson) ?, to me it's obvious Wade it's not telling the truth. I saw him saying that he did knew it all this time that MJ had molested him. still he was at MJ's funeral crying,  still he praised MJ and saying he felt compasion towards MJ , when the reporter asked him him how he felt towards MJ , and this was  after he acused MJ  , He gave tributes to a man who he claimed molested him fo 7 years.
He claimed it was his kid who remind him of what happened to him, still he said in that same interview he knew it all this time. He does contradict himself imo. ëxperts people who have been molested in their childhood, would nod what happend to them. But he said he did know all this time he was molested
when he did testify he was a little boy, in 2011 he wasent a little boy anymore, and the timing is very suspicious to me, he didn't get any work from the estate, infact he was replaced for another choreographer. I am not sure about this but ,wasen't he bankrupt?

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“In a world filled with hate, we must still dare to hope. In a world filled with anger, we must still dare to comfort. In a world filled with despair, we must still dare to dream. And in a world filled with distrust, we must still dare to believe.”
― Michael Jackson

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Do

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As well as all of the material 'out there' that we are all familiar with (from both sides), for me, what has always been overlooked is that Michael never hid his love and care for children. It was on display for the whole world to see even down to the brass statues around the grounds of Neverland that depicted boys and girls at play in many settings.

Both Savile (Much of Savile's career involved working with children and young people, including visiting schools and hospital wards. At the time of his death, and funeral in Leeds Cathedral, he was widely praised for his charity and voluntary activities as well as his entertainment work) and Sandusky (said he loved being around kids and started the successful Second Mile Charity) were known for their love for children.

That is why we have to be careful and not immediately call everyone a liar, as hard as this is.
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"Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind."
Bertrand Russel

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Do

Hi Shy,
Yes I scanned through the link you put up (thank you for that, it was a reeaaal long one, I have to read it again more carefully right now!) and indeed it IS all highly suspicious, however I would like to wait and hear what will happen in October, that's when a court hearing is scheduled if I remember it correctly.
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"Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind."
Bertrand Russel

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RK

Do,  Savile did infact  say he didn't like children.
"Savile claimed the key to his success on Jim'll Fix It had been that he disliked children, although he later admitted to saying it to deflect scrutiny of his personal life. He did not own a computer, as he did not want people to think he was downloading child pornography.[14] In a 1990 interview for The Independent on Sunday
^^^ this is what I was saying about being duplicitous before.

As far as I am seeing, Savile was protected from the consequences while he was alive. By whom? Well that is another whole conspiracy theory there.  Allegations against him dated back to at least 1950. None ever made it into court.
An especially vile character as his interests were for the mentally challenged children within institutions and hospitals and also necrophillia.

From his actions, I would say that Savile was telling the truth when he said he didn't like children. His actions are hate crimes.
Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 10:48:26 PM by RK
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Hi Shy,
Yes I scanned through the link you put up (thank you for that, it was a reeaaal long one, I have to read it again more carefully right now!) and indeed it IS all highly suspicious, however I would like to wait and hear what will happen in October, that's when a court hearing is scheduled if I remember it correctly.

Yes Do, :) it is a very long post, but the longer the more detailed, imo
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“In a world filled with hate, we must still dare to hope. In a world filled with anger, we must still dare to comfort. In a world filled with despair, we must still dare to dream. And in a world filled with distrust, we must still dare to believe.”
― Michael Jackson

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Do

^^^RK, it wasn't right from me to 'compare' Savile and Michael, for obvious reasons. i'm sorry for that.
Michael was displaying his love for children and I have not a single shred of doubt in my heart that his love for them wasn't pure and sincere.

Maybe I can give you another example. A female co-worker of mine had, while (happily) married, a short (and sexual) relationship with another co-worker (also married). Because people started to suspect 'something' was going on, she took a step ahead and, in some kind of 'joky' manner, 'admitted' she and him were totally in love and crazy about one another. That isn't something people expect to hear, they expect strong denials and exasperation. Thus, they concluded, they were totally wrong about their suspicion of this so called 'love-affair', because if this affair were true, she wouldn't be so 'in their face' about it.

I don't know if I have made clear what I was trying to tell you. But in short: sometimes 'in your face' is the best disguise.

And, once again, I know this is a very difficult subject and I am not accusing anyone, just trying to compare some parallels.
Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 06:24:17 AM by Do
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"Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind."
Bertrand Russel

All it takes is for one domino to fall...
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@ Do, after reading all your posts on this topic, I have to wonder what your motive is and what point you are trying to prove. Theres no point in steady beating a dead horse kwim? We are all fans here, but it seems that some "fans" are out to continue to cause division within the MJ community. And I always wonder why. Then it seems as if its from those that don't post often or had a long vacation between the posts and then suddenly pop up again with negative comments.

 Anyway I know that MJ was investigated by the FBI for over 10 years. If the FBI investigates you, believe me, if you are doing wrong, they will find out. They leave no stone unturned. Its always been that way. That speaks volumes. They found nothing on him. Neither did the police during the raid. Nothing. Zilch.

Also, if someone abused my kid, I wouldn't take a dime from them. I want them under the prison. Of course we all have to be realistic and think of the what if. But, there is no evidence of any abuse. Anybody could be accused of being a child molester, but without evidence, there is no proof. That's all we have to go on. I believe that MJ was innocent. I do think he should've made wiser choices though.

I think he was blackballed in Hollywood by the Illuminati because he didn't want to do what they said. The more he spoke out against them, the more the accusations came in the media. Wade Robson is flat broke. He was blackballed in Hollywood once he slept with Britney Spears and broke her and J. Timberlake up and had the audacity to call Justin and tell him about it. He hasn't worked since. Hes a liar, has no character and is broke. Lets not forget that ROBSON is the one who testified and said that MJ did NOTHING to him. Nobody forced him to come to that courtroom. He voluntarily came. Think about that
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 HI Michaelslady,

 Do is also a Fan or admirer of MJ, we all are,  maybe i am also not  allowed to say anything because i don't post for long times either. i have been a member from 2010 and i read almost everyday, tho there were times i felt out/ not accepted. so i didnt say anything for some time, finally i have the feeling things are different now. so i tried to post again, but remember i never left, like many of us.
And i do like the debate, and i do believe ,we all are entiltled to say what we want as long it's done in a respectfull way to other members as well  towards MJ, and to me DO did that..
Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 02:18:46 AM by ShyBleuEyes
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“In a world filled with hate, we must still dare to hope. In a world filled with anger, we must still dare to comfort. In a world filled with despair, we must still dare to dream. And in a world filled with distrust, we must still dare to believe.”
― Michael Jackson

*

Do

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@ Do, after reading all your posts on this topic, I have to wonder what your motive is and what point you are trying to prove. Theres no point in steady beating a dead horse kwim? We are all fans here, but it seems that some "fans" are out to continue to cause division within the MJ community. And I always wonder why. Then it seems as if its from those that don't post often or had a long vacation between the posts and then suddenly pop up again with negative comments.

 Anyway I know that MJ was investigated by the FBI for over 10 years. If the FBI investigates you, believe me, if you are doing wrong, they will find out. They leave no stone unturned. Its always been that way. That speaks volumes. They found nothing on him. Neither did the police during the raid. Nothing. Zilch.

Also, if someone abused my kid, I wouldn't take a dime from them. I want them under the prison. Of course we all have to be realistic and think of the what if. But, there is no evidence of any abuse. Anybody could be accused of being a child molester, but without evidence, there is no proof. That's all we have to go on. I believe that MJ was innocent. I do think he should've made wiser choices though.

I think he was blackballed in Hollywood by the Illuminati because he didn't want to do what they said. The more he spoke out against them, the more the accusations came in the media. Wade Robson is flat broke. He was blackballed in Hollywood once he slept with Britney Spears and broke her and J. Timberlake up and had the audacity to call Justin and tell him about it. He hasn't worked since. Hes a liar, has no character and is broke. Lets not forget that ROBSON is the one who testified and said that MJ did NOTHING to him. Nobody forced him to come to that courtroom. He voluntarily came. Think about that

I understand you're confused. But there are no motives an no points to prove. Just a debate about 'other scenario's'. I'm mainly pointing to the 'new' cases. Wade's accusation is highly doubtful, but what about Jimmy Safechuck's?
You said you wouldn't take a dime, but would you let your kid sleep night after night in a hotelroom in bed with an adult male, while you stayed across the street in another hotel? Some people have different morals then others. So yes, some would take the money and stay silent. To be clear, this is (again) no accusation against Michael.
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"Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind."
Bertrand Russel

*

RK

Robson is asking for $1.62 billion 
And here comes safechuck looking for a piece of that big payout day......

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Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 10:48:24 PM by RK
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RK

A list of useful links for anyone who wishes to look into this topic. Please share.

UPDATE: LINKS exposing LIES abt MJ &false allegations from @DiDimond ,Sneddon&co
RT - #Mjfam List of useful LINKS to expose the LIES about MJ & false allegations from @DiDimond ,Robson, Safechuck, Sneddon &co.
Please share and spread them whenever and wherever it will be necessary to shovel down ignorants', haters’ and liars' mouths!
______________________________________________
Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck

1. Wade Robson – When things don’t add up … [AEG involvement] - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
2. The sworn testimony that will come back to haunt Wade Robson - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
3. What does the AEG trial have to do with Wade Robson and Blanca Francia? - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
4. Mesereau on AEG trial, Wade Robson and Debbie Rowe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
5. Tom Mesereau is back on King Jordan! Talking Wade Robson, Tom Sneddon, Debbie Rowe: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
6. What the HELL is wrong with Wade Robson? The Events so far - Part 1 of 4 - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
7. Wade Robson Destroyed: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
8. Michael Jackson: Myth Vs Reality (& Jimmy Safechuck): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
9. Checkmate, Jimmy Safechuck: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
10. Diane Dimond knew days in advance before the allegation was made; Jimmy Safechuck's allegation wasn't the first one that @DiDimond got tipped off in advance: --- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ; --- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
11. Lost in Foreverland ‏@ANeverlandDream - If we all could raise our voice as ONE, We can break this CYCLE of USERS. #StopTheLiesAgainstMichaelJackson- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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Diane DIMOND

.............................“Why work when you can sue Michael Jackson?” -Tom Messereau
Why find a real job, when you can report misleading "facts" abt MJ? hummm @DiDimond ?

1. Exposing Diane Dimond - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
2. part 1-"A Dossier of Dirty Diane" @DiDimond - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
3. part 2-"A Dossier of Dirty Diane" @DiDimond - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
4. Time to stop taking Diane Dimond’s LIES for Blanca Francia’s DEPOSITION - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
5. Fact Checking Diane Dimond’s Lies from TruTV’s “In Session” - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
6. DIANE DIMOND in a case of a HOMELESS KID and a pedophile RODNEY ALLEN - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
7. Aphrodite Jones RIPPS Diane Dimond to pieces on King Jordan Radio!: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
8. Evidence of Diane Dimond's lies - clips part 1: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
9. Diane Dimond's Hypocrisy in Covering Gavin Arvizo and Jerry Sandusky's Victim: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
10. Excellent video exposing the perverted Diane DIMOND, V. Gutierez & P. Baressi! - WHO KILLED MICHAEL JACKSON ? Part 1 - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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Tom SNEDDON

............................"This prosecution was a travesty of justice and one of the most mean-spirited
..............................attacks on an innocent person in legal history.” -Tom Mesereau
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1. Sneddon manufactured false finger prints&false phone conspiracy evidence& other false allegations - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
2. New allegations against prosecutor of M. Jackson - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
3. Posts tagged ‘Tom Sneddon’ - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
4. THE COURAGE OF TRUTH vs. THE FEAR OF TOM SNEDDON - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
5. The Chronicle of Tom Sneddon’s Vendetta Against Michael Jackson. THE SAGA OF ARROGANCE AND DESPERATION - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
6. The Corrupt History of District Attorney Tom Sneddon - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login @almightyk9
7. How Many Boys Did Tom Sneddon REALLY Accuse Michael Jackson Of Molesting? - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
8. Tom Sneddon SLAMMED on LIVE TV: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
9. The truth about Tom Sneddon?: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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11. Sneddon did his own investigation of the M. Jackson allegations!: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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14. PROOF that Michael Jackson WAS NOT a child abuser and that he was FRAMED by Tom Sneddon: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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The MEDIA lies

1. The Media Gets Exposed For Lying About Michael Jackson!: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
2. One of the Most Shameful Episodes In Journalistic History - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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5. Michael Jackson was INNOCENT! PROOF! Tom Mesereau Had Witnesses Ready to Testify against Chandler - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
6. ABC Facts of Michael Jackson’s INNOCENCE - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
7. Debunking the Demonic Deception: The Story of Michael Jackson and The Truth - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
8. Michael Jackson FBI FILES RELEASE.PROOF that Michael Jackson was not a child abuser - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
9. A Vanguard for Michael – Tom Mesereau - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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12. Message-Rare Michael Jackson footage !!!!!: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
13. Vindication Day: An Article on the Most Important Day in the Michael Jackson Calendar You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
14. United Fans Calling Michael Jackson: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
15. It’s Not Up To Michael Jackson’s Fans To Prove That He Was Innocent; It’s Up To Michael Jackson’s HATERS To PROVE That He Was Guilty! - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
16. The Lynching of Michael Jackson by Jeff Koopersmith You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login via @MJJJusticePrjct
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