Discussion 1: Could he have done it alone? - page 5 - Other Theories - Michael Jackson Death Hoax Investigators - Page 5

Quote from: "bec"

Souza threw out a great theory that kind of turned things on their head for me re: the events of 6/25/09: Nothing went to UCLA on 6/25/09, not even an ambulance... especially in regards to developments we have made here and on the TIAI threads, it's exciting.

I think we should start a new discussion on that theory, see what others here think about it, and start testing it big time.

Here it is, I just copied the comments from the other thread. I think it's the most logical scenario. There is NO proof that there was an ambulance at all on that day.

Quote from: "~Souza~"

Quote from: "curls"
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "fordtocarr"
But, honestly, do we have to agree? And what does agreeing get us? Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get?? I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree. That's why God made us all different. To be ourselves. Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them? HUMMM

Well, the straight forward answer is that it gets us further progress in the game TS initiated that we agreed to play when we started following this thread.

When I say "game" I mean figuratively.

But 'agreeing' on something doesn't make it the truth - most of the world 'agrees' that MJ is dead! I don't think TS is waiting for us to 'agree'.

I agree (LOL).

Has TS ever said something plain out about the hoax? No. Will he? Nah, don't think so. In the end, did he tell us that the picture was photoshopped? No. He said most likely, but he didn't confirm it. I think the purpose of this 'game' is to let us present different theories, without skipping a possibility.

I have another possibility that may sound strange, but could be another possibility: there was no ambulance at all. What I still think is weird as hell is that there is only ONE video that shows the ambulance coming out of the gates, and no pictures besides the famous NPG pic. There was a tour bus full of people, people on a tour bus have cameras with them. There is a guy filming the ambulance at the beginning of this video: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login and that close to the concerts, with Mike rehearsing daily, there should have been paparazzi and fans outside the house, but I don't see them. If you freeze the video at certain points where it captures the street, there is no one, besides some fire fighters and a car. And all we've got is that HollywoodTV video and Ben's famous picture. That house was rented weeks before TMZ published it on December 22, 2008: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login so in the weeks before no one would have bothered to be around that house. It would also explain why the Christmas stuff was on the gates and the trash was outside. All you have to do in that case is make sure that fans or paps would be removed from the area on June 25 for a few minutes, so that no one can say that they have been there all morning and afternoon and never saw an ambulance. That would mean the picture of the ambulance arriving at UCLA was staged as well, which I believe anyway. Other media outlets only began reporting after he allegedly arrived at the hospital and the timeline is fucked up anyway. According to the LATimes on June 25, he died at 3:15 pm. No one knew that day what they were reporting and who the source was. It was a mess, I remember watching The Situation Room on CNN and reports were messy as hell. They didn't have a clue.

At arriving at UCLA, you close the department, set of the fire alarm and only dr. Cooper has to know, plus one or two bobos from UCLA. In this scenario the following people need to be in the know:

Staff at the house and since I think there weren't many people at the house (we have not heard all those fired staff members after June 25, probably simply because they never exsisted). In other words: Kai Chase, Murray and the bodyguards. The guy who took the 911 call, which must have known it was a fake call and that is probably why he hang up, to be able to pick up real calls. Staff driving ambulance 71 that day and the other uhhmm day, key people from LAPD/LAFD and the FBI, Dr. Cooper and one or two people at UCLA and the coroner. And of course some media: Harvey, Ben Evenstad and probably another freelance pap/undercover FBI agent who is providing media outlets with pictures and video footage.

Think about it, it would be the best to do. Wrap everything up before it happens, just to be sure it will all go well. All that had to be done that day was make the call at the right time, clear the street for a while so no paps and fans would be near the house to notice nothing happened, let the fire alarm go off at the right time at UCLA and send a distraction heli to the coroner. All you need to make it look like it actually happened is some video footage and pictures, they don't have to be made on June 25.

Quote from: "~Souza~"

Quote from: "bec"
And then we have tour bus footage. Could be an elaborate plant full of actors/actresses, but then that's a lot of people in on it.

3 scenarios besides it being a real tour bus with real tourists on June 25 (in that case: where the F are the pictures and videos from the tourists??):

- There was no ambulance on June 25, they shot it in December 2008 so people in the bus didn't bother to make a picture because they didn't know MJ lived there. In that case one would expect though that some of the tourists might have recognized themselves yet we haven't heard from any of them saying it was not on June 25.

- It wasn't recorded on June 25, but in December and the people in the tour bus are not real tourists but FBI agents.

- It was really on June 25 but the tourists were FBI agents and that is why they never made pictures.

Too many people to be agents? Just watch Breach, where there were 50 agents working on the sting against the mole in the FBI and this movie was based on a real sting. 50 agents would also mean you have 50 potential actors for this movie.

Quote from: "~Souza~"

Okay, I changed my mind completely. I think it was MJ on the stretcher in the ambulance and at the hospital, sitting up. The reason why I think so is because I think June 25 never happened. It was ALL an illusion. No entrapment if it never happened. All there was created, was an opportunity.

I have always found it strange that they wrapped up the rehearsals so close to the death date. That seems a tight deadline for a control freak like MJ. He wants everything perfect right? What if something was NOT recorded the way he wanted? There would have been no opportunity to reshoot. Never made sense to me. Unless of course, he fooled US as well, and TII was shot earlier with ADDITIONAL SCENES and June 25 simply never happened.

I might go slightly off topic here, but I have to to explain my point.

In the tourbus video there is something weird that chappie pointed out to me on the phone. At the end there is this lady on the corner of the street that is on the phone: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. Someone on the bus mentions that she is a big MJ fan. So WHY is she there? The ambulance has been in the house for ages, with the fire truck outside. Being a big MJ fan, she must have known it was Michael's house, so why didn't she go there to check out what happened? Apparently she also didn't call other fans, because the street is empty. No fans, no paparazzi, no nothing. In the video below Ben mentions that it was very quiet that day:

[youtube:212kj5ut]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2_421PgyJw[/youtube:212kj5ut]

2 female fans, 2 autograph collectors and '4 of us' (NPG). First of all, the ambulance had been there for 40!!! minutes, yet no other fan showed up to check out what happened. There were 2 fans there, plus the one on the corner of the street, but apparently they didn't notify other fans that something was going on. Cars must have been passing by and tour busses came on and off according to Ben. Since when can something happen UNNOTIFIED for 40 minutes at MJ's house that has ambulances and firetrucks involved? The most hunted man on the planet, yet that ambulance can stay there for 40 minutes without attracting zillions of fans and paparazzi? Okay...

Also notice that the only paps on the scene were from the NPG. That means the HollywoodTV video ALSO comes from Ben et al. On HollywoodTV's website it says: "Hollywood.TV obtained video of Michael Jackson as he was rushed to UCLA Medical Center" while they say about another video: "Hollywood.TV was able to confirm that Britney Spears had suffered a mental breakdown and was being rushed to the hospital. Hollywood.TV was on the spot and shot the only video of the pop star on a stretcher." This tells me that someone either sold or sent them the video and that they did not shoot it themselves. So this means to me that not only the ambulance picture was staged, but also the video. I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I hadn't thought it through yet. It makes sense.

Possible scenario:

Spring/Summer 2008: The video of the ambulance was shot with MJ himself in it. They shoot the video at the house and at the hospital, but not in between. They followed that ambulance again right before June 25, because advertisements along the road most likely had changed within the year, or any other stuff that might show it would be recent. They follow the ambulance the whole way, yet we never see them arriving. We only have a video where the ambulance is already parked there. They make the pictures with the jackets and the MJ sitting up, and done, wrapped up for the day. Or maybe they needed more days, because I read somewhere on this thread that the ambulance was seen more often in that street.

Ben also mentioned that a lot of staff was leaving. Could be any day, because the videos below are BOTH clearly cut. No LAFD seen anywhere in these shots and Ben said they were there every day. So when were the shots of the staff taken? The other day? So that staff, or whoever they are, could have left the day before or the day after. And yes, they might have recognized themselves on one of the vids, IF they have seen these, but they must have known Ben was there EVERY day and probably thought he messed up the editing. Not important anyway and even IF they thought it was strange, they would only suspect something going on, like we do.

[youtube:212kj5ut]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2_421PgyJw[/youtube:212kj5ut]
[youtube:212kj5ut]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXiLROMZaqI[/youtube:212kj5ut]

On June 25, all they had to do was block the street one way or another to make sure that there was no possibility that someone was around the house the whole day, to know nothing ever happened. There are many ways they could have accompolished that. And some people had to be in the house to call 911 at the right time and provide background noise. But actually that could have been recorded too. If LAFD is in on it, they could have simply 'created' that emergency screen. If it had to be in the records, they probably did really call 911 at 12:21, but the dispatcher must have been in on it since he hangs up after 2 minutes already, while the paramedics hadn't even arrived (probably because they never would arrive). Risky because another dispatchet could have taken the call? I don't know, they probably have ways for that, or something like a direct line or disconnecting the other phones for 3 seconds or so.

Step further, at the hospital, the fire alarm goes off. People are evacuated and therefore no one sees that nothing ever arrived. At least not the famous MJ ambulance, because ambulances arrive there multiple times a day. Department closed, Dr. Cooper has a cup of coffee and is on the phone with someone to discuss the details one more time, before she pronounces 'MJ AIR' dead at 2:26 pm. Helicopter 'decides' to make a test flight to the coroner, or bring stuff or whatever and Joe Jackson (or an 'anonymous source') tips CNN that MJ's body will be transported by helicopter to the coroner.

In on it:

LAFD firestation 71 (Chief and the paramedics involved)
NPG
UCLA Dr. Cooper and COO
Bodyguards
Murray, whoever he is
Kai Chase (only staff member present)
Coroner

Of course more are in, but this is just for those few hours.

Helicopter staff might just have been told to let the media think they followed MJ for safety reasons

As for the tour bus, Iaybe the tourbus was staged and full of FBI agents/friends involved atc. There weren't that many in that bus, so that could be possible.

Another possibility is that it is a real tour bus and that only one of the people was in on it and just took the right bus at the right time. If it would have been June 2008, it would not have been interesting enough for other people on the bus to tape it. They look, and we see no faces. They probably woul not recognize themselves, most definitely not if there is a year in between. If you weren't there, it can't be you. I know they talk about it being MJ's house, but that's just audio. I think I can at least name one person definitely 'in on it' who is quite good with audio. :lol: Again, why is the fan at the end of the street acting like nothing happened. Like: "Drive already and let me finish my phone call. I'll call you when I have time, don't be annoying."

So in summary: MJ on stretcher in abulance (so why not also MJ on ambulance pic?) and on stretcher at hospital (sitting up), but not on June 25, but the other uhhhm day. It's a hoax, it never happened. It's ALL an illusion. No one saw the ambulance that day, no one except Ben Evanstad et al. Yeah right!

You wrap up a movie before you screen it to make sure there are no mistakes that annoying hoaxers could notice. The plan needs to be perfect, waterproof. If the ambulance video was shot live on June 25, it could have been a busy paparazzi-day and Chris might not have gotten near the window to fake the picture and then the staged pic would be useless. Or another pap might have gotten lucky enough to shoot SOMETHING through the window. Not likely, but too risky. No risks at a well planned hoax like this, too much at stake.

TII must have been shot sooner too, I have always thought it was strange Timor left for LA in late 2008/early 2009 already. I think that when the auditions for the dancers were held, TII was already a wrap. But that's too far off topic.

Here is a challenge for you TS: Can you give at least 2 strong arguments that show me there was an ambulance at all on June 25, 2009?Until then, I think this could very well be the case. I don't think there is a scenario with less people involved.

It's a hoax, a magic trick, an illusion. It didn't happen on June 25, MJ AIR.

Quote from: "~Souza~"

Although I have no problem at all if a real corpse was being used, there just are some things bothering me about it. The people that had to be fooled would be the public and the media. Since we haven't seen a body at all, the body was not used to fool us or the media. So the reason to use a real corpse has to be to fool the paramedics and the doctors at UCLA and I have trouble believing they would be fooled enough to work on that body for 2 hours while they must have seen (as also testified by both paramedics and doctor Cooper) that it was dead already. If the doctors (I guess there were just two at the prelim to testify, Cooper and Nguyen) would not be in and you deliver a dead corpse at the hospital, the chance of them pronouncing the patient dead within 5 to 10 minutes would be big. Doctors are no morons, they know a dead person when they see one. The chance that the time of death would NOT fit into the well planned numerology would therefore be WAY bigger, than that they would call it at 2:26 pm, as planned. You could say they did call it earlier and the FBI changed the TOD on the papers, but in that case we have a doctor who is being kept out of the loop, has to testify and there is a very likely possibility that that subject would come up, since the doctor is not going to lie about that just like that. If she would, it would mean that the FBI has asked her to go along with it for whatever reason, and if they had to do that anyway, why not from the start? So no need to fool the docs.

If a real corpse was used, there are two options:

1-Person died before June 25 and was preserved (donor body)
2-Person died on June 25 in the morning, before 911 was called (Assisted suicide/pulling plug out of life support machines)

In both cases the paramedics AND the doctors at UCLA must have seen that the person was dead, as in really dead without chances of reviving. Rigor Mortis and Algor Mortis are not the only stages of death, there is more to determine whether someone is dead and for how long. Algor Mortis (cooling of the corpse) can be manipulated with the heated room, yet that same heated room will make Rigor Mortis set in quicker, even if a body was cooled first. The condition of the patient is also important for the onset of Rigor Mortis. A 'sick, old, frail' man will show rigor way sooner than a person with more body fat and muscles. So by heating the room they might have prevented Algor Mortis, but they sped up the Rigor Mortis. You can 'break' rigor, but not on the eyelids, you will damage the tissue visibly.

This is an excerpt of an article published in August 2009:

Quote
Dr Steven Hoefflin, a close friend of Jackson and speaking with the permission of his mother Katherine, confirmed details of the paperwork.

"I've spoken to a chief in the fire department who told me Michael was dead when they arrived," Dr Hoefflin, 63, told News of the World.

"He had no pulse and was not breathing. They gave him an electro-cardiogram but he was flatlined.

"They say he even had lividity, which meant the blood had sunk to the back, indicating his heart had stopped a couple of hours earlier.

"This is the most important aspect of the report as it means he must have been dead for over an hour, probably longer."
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Lividity is a stage of death that is very hard to prevent, without draining the blood from the body. We know they didn't do that, because the hospital allegedly took samples. Lividity sets in 1 to 2 hours after death and that means that the patient is as dead as can be and that there is NO USE in CPR or anything else.

Seneff testified during the prelim that the patient's eyes and mouth were open, eyes-dilated and dry, his hands and feet were blue.
He was cold to touch.

And Blount testified that he observed that the patient’s eyes were “blown” (large and unresponsive to light).

Let's say that the paramedics would not be in on it, and they did find a person like this. No pulse, not breathing, cold, showed lividity, eyes dried and open (which will cause Tache Noire, a black stripe in the eyes), hands and feet were blue (Cyanosis, not enough oxygen in the blood). The above indicates that the person is not only clinically dead, but also brain dead. In other words: even IF they would be able to get the organs and heart to work again (sometimes people survive clinical death), the person would never be able to lift his own finger or open his eyes.

Quote
Brain injury is likely if cardiac arrest goes untreated for more than five minutes. For the best chance of survival and neurological recovery, immediate and decisive treatment is imperative.
(Wiki)

Murray allegedly performed CPR on the bed with one hand. We can assume by the reports that immediate and decisive treatment was not given in the first 5 (most likely even more) minutes.

So if the paramedics would not be in, it is only logical that they wanted to call it and transport him to the coroner. But Murray could have overruled them and could have gotten as far as the emergency room. But over there the ER doctor is the higher authority. If a patient like that would arrive (CLEARLY dead as a doornail), there is no way a doctor keeps trying to revive that person for over an hour. Reviving a patient like that would be a medical miracle, having the patient functioning again would be simply IMPOSSIBLE). The doctor would have called it right away and not wait until 2:26 pm.

As for the bodyguards not in it: no way. They were in the room with the patient and Murray and called 911. They worked for Michael and bodyguards have extreme eye for detail. They need that to be on guard 24/7. Yet they wouldn't recognize the person they have been protecting all this time? I don't buy that at all.

So this is what is bothering me regarding the corpse. A doctor will not perform CPR on a clearly dead person. So either they are not in and called it way earlier and now lie all of a sudden about that, meaning they were read-in later, what doesn't make sense if you could do that right away, or they are in on it, which seems to make more sense.

So if the bodyguards are in, and the doctors are in when a real body is used, it would mean the same amount of people involved as when there would have been no ambulance that day, except for the two paramedics mentioned above. Using a real corpse for just two paramedics who can be easily silenced does not make sense to me.

Actually with nothing happening at all on June 25, less people would be in, since there would not be an emergency and only the two docs testifying have to be in. The emergency room could have been empty. Nothing to see, nothing to risk. The use of a real corpse would be useless, unless there would be another good reason to use a real body, but I can't think of one.

So if anyone can give me another reason for the use of a real corpse, please do so. Is what I stated above enough for a jury in a court of law? Maybe not, but it's enough for reasonable doubt. And that's all you need.

So I am back at my previous question: was there an ambulance at all on June 25?[/color]