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I have two “far-fetched” explanations that could either be separate or together. They'll probably blend together as I write this. The only “problem” is I don’t have “solid evidence” or “proof” and there are a lot of “what ifs”.
If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.
TS (my bolding):QuoteIf all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.As far as I'm aware MJ has never tried to create an illusion of a DWD patient. That would be all TS's doing methinks!
And I can't get past this also from TS (my bolding): "And please pay attention to the difference between the reasons for the FBI choosing to use a DWD patient (which we may not fully understand), and the evidences that a real DWD patient was actually used (which we should all be able to understand)."I know I keep banging on about this, but it doesn't sit easy 'blindly' accepting a theory when I can't ascertain a motive for it. It seems that the old 'have-everybody-in-on-it' cop out clause has been replaced by an 'it-was-FBI-so-we'll-never-understand' excuse, when facing the unexplainable. I'm not trying to be awkward here, I really am stuck. I'll shut up now!
And in the very unlikely chance that both patients backed out simultaneously, when there was not enough time left to bring in a third DWD patient, a dummy could still be used with no greater risk than what many on this thread already think is a very low risk method.
And these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.
I vote NO to Body, NO to DWD / HOSPICE and YES to both or either Dummy / MJ. I also vote YES to Devils Advocate! :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:.....Don't fret TS may have the ol' joker card of devils advocate... The list is NOT BS!
Why does FBI involvement automatically mean MJ was/is in danger and they were there for his protection, as some are saying here?1. There are recordings posted on Youtube with Michael saying he was afraid for his life, in various occasions.2. There are videos on Youtube with members of Michael's family saying countless times that there was a conspiracy against him, that "they were trying to murder him".If you don't believe Michael and his family, then WHO do you believe?3. TS stressed on the Illuminati theory for a reason! That means those people were infiltrated in his entourage from the music industry, trying to get his catalog/fortune/Neverland by all means!!4. Michael was framed for those 2 trials!! If "they" were capable of doing that, do you guys seriously doubt that 'they" would hesitate to murder him ??5. Do you think the FBI just sat on those false allegations and did NOTHING? Do you think they had so many files on Michael just for nothing?? It was said in those files his life was in danger!! It is said on those files that they had found nothing to incriminate Michael!!How on Earth you can doubt that his life was in danger??Do you think the FBI would get involved in Michael's hoax, just to have some fun!?? of course there was a SERIOUS MOTIVE!! Life threatening IS a serious motive!! + Financial fraud!! which most of the music industry sharks did to Michael!6. And then...don't forget about ELVIS !!! Michael wasn't the only one to have received help from the FBI to fake his death to save his life!! Elvis and his family have received numerous death threats too prior to 1977!!
yes there are or there was an investigation of the FBIQuoteHi folks,I remarked on this video several months ago and it just came to me to find it again and re-view it. It is the video of the Congressional Black Caucus Tribute to Michael Jackson and features beautifully eloquent speakers. I would encourage people who haven't seen it to watch both parts.However, what I want to draw particular attention to are the comments of Congresswoman Watson, who, in part I, @ 35:30 says the following( bold are my emphasis):"I want you to know that the Los Angeles community, the state of California, and the nation, we're all concerned about Michael Jackson's death.And uh, I'm in contact with the family, and the people who handle his career involvement, and I assured them that come out into the open becaanything untoward about Michael will use, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is involved in this lengthly investigation. So just know, you might be sitting there and saying why is it taking so long, that they are studying every intricate detail of his life, and his death, and what happened afterwards. So just know, that within a short while, justice will out, and justice will be done. Have faith."You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=banoDxROih4[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=D5EOMomQsw4[/youtube]
Hi folks,I remarked on this video several months ago and it just came to me to find it again and re-view it. It is the video of the Congressional Black Caucus Tribute to Michael Jackson and features beautifully eloquent speakers. I would encourage people who haven't seen it to watch both parts.However, what I want to draw particular attention to are the comments of Congresswoman Watson, who, in part I, @ 35:30 says the following( bold are my emphasis):"I want you to know that the Los Angeles community, the state of California, and the nation, we're all concerned about Michael Jackson's death.And uh, I'm in contact with the family, and the people who handle his career involvement, and I assured them that come out into the open becaanything untoward about Michael will use, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is involved in this lengthly investigation. So just know, you might be sitting there and saying why is it taking so long, that they are studying every intricate detail of his life, and his death, and what happened afterwards. So just know, that within a short while, justice will out, and justice will be done. Have faith."
#7 Nobody was allowed upstairs in the Carolwood home. A dummy could be kept in a locked case, until the “emergency” began; aside from a few seconds to take the dummy out of the case, and place it on the bed, there would never be any problem if someone not in the hoax went upstairs. The live MJ theory would also need little if any secrecy upstairs.
#8 Reports from MJ fans that there was a lot of extra security at Carolwood on the night of June 24/25, 2009. This would be when the DWD patient was brought into the home (and also explains a reason for the missing CCTV). Like #7 above, a locked up dummy or live MJ would not need all that extra security.
Quote from: TS_comments on November 24, 2012, 05:03:05 AMAnd these laws provide a very clear explanation for the word “alleged” in the verdict. It would be inaccurate, if not illegal, to state that the DWD patient was a “victim” of manslaughter (which is a type of homicide); but the wording “alleged victim” made it perfectly accurate and legal. On a side note: a dummy would not have any date of death, much less any need for an “alleged date” of death.A DWD patient doesn't need an alleged date of death either. The person would have died on 6/25/09. Why even include the side note? It suggests that a DWD patient is NOT being described by the verdict.Besides, by TS_comment's evidence, the victimization would not even be alleged by the California court, since he is arguing that the DWD scenario would not be illegal in CA. So I'm confused there too.
... One date I noticed TS is the date you have for the burial in the quote below. I presume this is not a mistake or a typo and you have intentionally given us the date the burial was really filmed and then later beamed to the world on 9-3-09?:Quote#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
@BTC .... So I don't see how questioning TS is undermining him or anyone supporting a different viewpoint, I find that much is learned from debate, for both 'sides'.
12 Evidences for DWDNow for a dozen evidences in support of the DWD theory. This is merely a review, so I won’t be repeating much of the details (they can be found in previous posts by me and/or others). And please pay attention to the difference between the reasons for the FBI choosing to use a DWD patient (which we may not fully understand), and the evidences that a real DWD patient was actually used (which we should all be able to understand).#1 Confusion of appearance (both with the real MJ, and also with the DWD patient); there would be no need for confusion of appearance, if a good MJ look-alike dummy was used, or live MJ.#2 The 3-5-09 WA DWD. If we dismiss this as merely a koinkidink, then why not dismiss all the other hoax koinkidinks? Besides, this is not “stand alone” evidence—it is evidence which fits perfectly into all the other points listed here.#3 Two “unknown” WA DWD death locations in 2009 (never any other “unknown” in WA, and no “unknown” in OR for the first 13 years).#4 TIAI redirected to the TMZ home page, shortly before the TMZ article that MJ killed himself (on 4-4 at 4am, 2010); and DWD patients must “ingest the medication unassisted”—they must kill themselves.#5 Paramedics said that it looked like a hospice patient (about 80% to 90% of DWD deaths were also hospice patients). Whether they are all in on the hoax, or not, there has been no good explanation for why they would lie about this.#6 The warm room on a summer day in California seems unnecessary, if it was a dummy or live MJ.#7 Nobody was allowed upstairs in the Carolwood home. A dummy could be kept in a locked case, until the “emergency” began; aside from a few seconds to take the dummy out of the case, and place it on the bed, there would never be any problem if someone not in the hoax went upstairs. The live MJ theory would also need little if any secrecy upstairs.#8 Reports from MJ fans that there was a lot of extra security at Carolwood on the night of June 24/25, 2009. This would be when the DWD patient was brought into the home (and also explains a reason for the missing CCTV). Like #7 above, a locked up dummy or live MJ would not need all that extra security.#9 The staff was dismissed, before bringing the body down to the ambulance (stated by Kai and Ben); this would not be needed, if there was a dummy that looked just like MJ in 2009 or live MJ.#10 The towel on the face (another precaution, in addition to dismissing the staff); again, this would not be needed, if there was a dummy or live MJ. This also provides another reason for staging the ambo pic in advance; if it was a dummy or live MJ, they could’ve arranged things to “accidentally” let Ben or Chris get a shot of loading MJ into the ambulance, or something. But if it was a DWD patient, a picture taken in real time would not work.#11 Sharon said that the body on the stretcher was too short for MJ. A dummy would be made to match the size of MJ, and would not be too short; and live MJ certainly would not be too short. We can try to minimize this evidence, by saying that Sharon did not have a good perspective of the patient on the stretcher, or Sharon is not a reliable witness, or whatever. However, with the DWD theory, you don’t have to come up with any such explanations—you can simply take it at face value, the patient looked shorter than Michael because the patient WAS shorter than Michael. Simple.#12 The verdict: “Superior court of California Los Angeles County. The people of the state of California plaintiff versus Conrad Robert Murray defendant. Case number SA-073164. Title of court and cause. We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. In violation of penal code section 192 subsection B alleged victim Michael Joseph Jackson alleged date of June 25th 2009 as charged in count I of the information.” The charge stated in context is “involuntary manslaughter”—not suicide, or assisted suicide; so even if the DWD patient method was illegal in CA, yet the patient would not be an actual victim of manslaughter (he would be an “alleged victim”). And especially with the FBI sting making the DWD method legal in CA, there is certainly no legal basis for the patient being an actual victim of manslaughter.We may not be able to positively verify all 12 of these points (such as the towel on the face); however, as I said already, we should take things at “face” value—unless there is good evidence that someone is lying. And in this case, all 12 evidences support the same simple conclusion; no need for any fancy back-flips, or complicated explanations. {see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}I am not listing the following as one of the twelve evidences, but La Toya did give a very clear clue less than ten minutes after TS first posted the DWD evidence: “What is everyone doing with the left overs?” {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}And clear back in March of 2010 (Update #4), TS said: “… Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died.” Notice that I did not mention a corpse in cold storage for a long time; and DWD fits exactly with a patient who had “recently died.”If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose? Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility? No doubt. However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations? Not likely.Oh, and one last very important point: almost all of these 12 evidences support the hoax theory, and do not support the literal murder theory.I rest my case. :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley: :judge-smiley:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login... One date I noticed TS is the date you have for the burial in the quote below. I presume this is not a mistake or a typo and you have intentionally given us the date the burial was really filmed and then later beamed to the world on 9-3-09?:Quote#2. Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI. In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI. The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures). And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.No, typo; my bad, sorry. :icon_pale: :errrr: :computer-losy-smiley: :Crash: :over-react-smiley:... fixed :icon_albino:Good eye! :smiley_abuv:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login@BTC .... So I don't see how questioning TS is undermining him or anyone supporting a different viewpoint, I find that much is learned from debate, for both 'sides'. I never said that questioning TS is undermining him....he, himself, has always told us to do so. We should question everything...my point was that we should not only question if info is false, but also if it's true. Sure, there's always the possibility that he's 'misleading' us...but if that's the only reason to doubt the theory, then the doubt is NOT based on the info but instead on the one providing it. It's the info that should be questioned, IMO, not the messenger....and not with personal opinions but rather with evidence that contradicts the info provided.Perhaps I just see things differently because to me this was never about a 'debate' or about being on one 'side' or another....I saw it as working together, as a team, to try to figure out as best we could, all we could. With L.O.V.E. always.
