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[hopi]

A BIG  :bearhug: for BEC...
So sorry to hear about your foot, I know what your talking about, it happened to me too some years ago (horse jumped on my foot and a vein was bursting... the foot was blue and green all over and more than twice as much :icon_e_confused:)
Healthcare in America seems to be a BIG problem and I'm so sorry you have to go through this. Take all the positive energy you get from the members here and take your time for healing!

Oh and btw, my deepest  :smiley_abuv: for all the work you've done here and hopefully will continue to do. I always look forward to your posts, although I sometimes don't go along with your opinion. So don't bother with the "result" of TS post and be proud of what you're able to do. Love to you and healing light...  :icon_exclaim:

@TS Thank you for explaning...

[Adore]

TS - thanks for showing up :)  unfortunately I will still need to "keep watchin' " because I just don't believe the DWD theory. But I'm used to being on the other end of the spectrum so obviously if you are MJ,you and I think totally different. But that's what makes this all interesting, right? I have several pages to read yet but it looks like I'm in the minority.

Count me in, too.

I don't have any ethical issues with someone dying with dignity "for" MJ, my problem is with FBI's supposed criminal sting. In these almost 4 years after 06/25/2009 I don't remember seeing or reading anything that could relate to an FBI involvement/help in MJ's hoax. All I saw was circus and it had Michael's name and his genius humor writing all over. In my opinion, all those clues and ridiculous events that followed that day couldn't have taken place if FBI had a sting going on, and if Michael was in danger. The way I see it, as far as FBI is concerned, things are either serious are they aren't at all. I mean, in a hypothetical BAM, I cannot imagine FBI's explanation being something like: "see, we protected MJ's life and we allowed him having his "artistic" way in the meantime" (lol).

By the way, in regards with what TS said about the BAM (01.01.2013, at the latest) and the sting, now it's almost the end of 2012, and have we heard anything about a criminal investigation/revelation going on in relation with Michael ? The only "criminal" was Murray and he's "behind bars".

[RedPennylocks]

@Bec, sorry to hear about your foot. I hope you feel better soon. :bearhug:

[MJonmind]

First of all, Bec, what a sad unfortunate thing injuring your foot, and I do hope you're on the mend quickly. Hopefully it's not broken.
:bearhug:

UYI

BAM could go either way, the way we expect it or the way we don't, so we shouldn't have a definite set of expectations, although again nothing wrong with that, but if we expect that we will be disappointed if the outcome is not our own then we might not want to write our expectations in stone, but the sand.
I mean if you expect everything, you'll get disappointed by anything.

You know I just don't have a foggy clue what it will look like, anywhere from a TMZ posting of Harvey doing a live interview with the real MJ with his shades on, (Wouldn't that be awesome!) to a giant MJ hologram in the sky in 14 key cities around the world like the huge statues MJ had made for History, to MJ appearing atop the Mayan temple on 12/21/12 with cameras beaming the occasion live to TV, to another press conference in London with the same MJ, to a Youtube message like Dr. Murray's thanking his fans  :icon_lol: or a Christmas message to the world, to Jordie and Gavin giving a Youtube message that they lied and then introducing MJ,  to IDK--I've run out of ideas... :icon_e_sad: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_razz:  Hey how about all the cast of the hoax lining up on stage at the Mayan event including Murray, KO, TP, the Jacksons, and the hundred others, and then MJ comes on stage!!  Maybe you guys can think of other possibilities--I just draw a blank, and of course NOTHING might happen  :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry:

Mjjj4ever777

To me, this journey isn't about HOW Michael pulled this off, but WHY???!!! I think that there will be many many of our very own MJ Family here that will be totally shocked, when they finally realize just how massive of an undertaking this has been. This is truly going to effect the whole world...an AWAKENING of the masses on a Global scale!! this is when the "Army of LOVE" will truly be put to the "test", and when all is revealed, EVERYTHING will change, because there will be no going back to the "old" ways of thinking!!

I could be totally wrong and this is of course is just my opinion, and I am in no way downplaying any of our investigations of the last 3.5 yrs...Michael has helped us to "hone" our skills for further use, when ALL is revealed!! I still Believe that the BIGGEST Bombshell is yet to come, but if for some reason I am wrong, well hey, I am still a much better human, and a much Happier and Positive human today, then I was 3.5 yrs ago! So I have already reaped my reward. so to speak!

Nicely written! I agree!

Andrea

TS:

If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose?   Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility?  No doubt.  However, can anyone come up with solid evidence to support this idea—which is based neither upon imagination, nor upon far-fetched explanations?  Not likely.

Oooh I've got far-fetched explanations.

Well, why don't we go there? Go ahead Andrea!   :icon_lol:

Sim

To all those who base their judgments on religious/spiritual/emotional beliefs, remember what TS said more than once: leave emotions aside! use logic and existent evidence to reach to a correct conclusion, closer to reality !
Whether we like or not that reality!
And IMO, the reality is this:
- A DWD patient was indeed involved (GOD bless his soul!)
- FBI had the major say in this!
- The whole thing is perfectly covered up with a lot of info that will remain classified long time after!
- Michael had little to say in the sting operation, but he was left full authority regarding most part of the hoax (memorial, funeral, TII, Murray trial & all the the adjacent hoaxy artistic activities)
- we can't possibly ever have the answers to all our questions about this elaborated PLAN that started years ago and involved Government officials!
- those who expected to know everything and those who are disappointed in the use of a DWD patient, have 2 options: deal with it and accept the situation OR continue to whine about it.

I was acting like a happy fool all day today (of course I told my immediate family everything but no one else) like this (almost)  :icon_redface: :icon_e_sad:!

For any of the greatest people who have ever lived and contributed the most, there have likely been some uncomfortable/controversial facts that were part of the story. But these things are good when they stir up passions to change things for the better, and foster dialogue to get to the bottom of taboo topics. Controversy always followed MJ, and will likely follow him in the future, and I'm sure he's okay with that! He will always have lovers and haters, just human nature.

MissG, yes I remember Dimitrie Draghicescu, and  it was signed, Father Lingyu Fu, or Father Fooling You! Lol

[onthewingsoflove]

Well, Well, Well!!

My vote that a corpse was used wasn't off in left field after all! How 'bout that! Thank you TS!

Now I'm I waiting to see who the sting is for! Let's see if my guess on that one pans out!

Stay blessed!

OnTheWingsOfLove

[SimPattyK]

In these almost 4 years after 06/25/2009 I don't remember seeing or reading anything that could relate to an FBI involvement/help in MJ's hoax.

You missed it. Search through TS posts back in 2010 - 2011 ...about sting operation (FBI)!
And even if you hadn't read TS, you surely must have heard of all the FBI files (333 pages !) on Michael released in the media!
And what about all those autopsy, death certificate and other official documents being released? Who do you think had the authority to do that , other than FBI /police/government officials?

All I saw was circus and it had Michael's name and his genius humor writing all over.

That's the scratch of the surface. That's the cloth in which the whole hoax is 'dressed' up!

The way I see it, as far as FBI is concerned, things are either serious are they aren't at all.

Things ARE! part of them ARE FBI, part of them are MJ! they couldn't have done it one without the other!
Think of it as a tandem!
- FBI did the serious, legal, "dirty" stuff
- MJ did the artistic part of it all

I mean, in a hypothetical BAM, I cannot imagine FBI's explanation being something like: "see, we protected MJ's life and we allowed him having his "artistic" way in the meantime" (lol).

WHY NOT?
You have to remember the PURPOSES of this hoax!
This hoax was NOT done exclusively to catch the mafia in the music/pharmaceutic industry!
You need to go back to the level where the WHYs of the hoax were discussed!

and have we heard anything about a criminal investigation/revelation going on in relation with Michael ? The only "criminal" was Murray and he's "behind bars".

Patience.
Let's see the BAM first and then let's hope they will be able to give us more details about that!
Even though I highly doubt now that we will ever get to know everything!
When have you heard of the FBI releasing to the public complete/full information of their operations, especially of this caliber!?

@UYI said it best earlier on this thread! If you expect everything, you will be disappointed by anything!

[curls]

Why does FBI involvement automatically mean MJ was/is in danger and they were there for his protection, as some are saying here?

I don't understand that leap, much as I don't understand the 'whys', the motive if you like, of the DWD theory, because we aren't allowed to know them because its FBI business. I could pick holes in the DWD theory but what's the point?

I still feel frustrated after a good night's sleep, that all these levels, meticulous studying and investigation of what actually happened on 25th June were never going to reveal the truth.

I'm going back to just watching mode.

@bec, so sorry to hear about your accident, hope you'll heal quickly and feel better soon.

[SimPattyK]

Why does FBI involvement automatically mean MJ was/is in danger and they were there for his protection, as some are saying here?

1. There are recordings posted on Youtube with Michael saying he was afraid for his life, in various occasions.

2. There are videos on Youtube with members of Michael's family saying countless times that there was a conspiracy against him, that "they were trying to murder him".

If you don't believe Michael and his family, then WHO do you believe?

3. TS stressed on the Illuminati theory for a reason! That means those people were infiltrated in his entourage from the music industry, trying to get his catalog/fortune/Neverland by all means!!

4. Michael was framed for those 2 trials!! If "they" were capable of doing that, do you guys seriously doubt that 'they" would hesitate to murder him ??

5. Do you think the FBI just sat on those false allegations and did NOTHING? Do you think they had so many files on Michael just for nothing?? It was said in those files his life was in danger!! It is said on those files that they had found nothing to incriminate Michael!!

How on Earth you can doubt that his life was in danger??
Do you think the FBI would get involved in Michael's hoax, just to have some fun!?? of course there was a SERIOUS MOTIVE!! Life threatening IS a serious motive!! + Financial fraud!! which most of the music industry sharks did to Michael!

6. And then...don't forget about ELVIS !!! Michael wasn't the only one to have received help from the FBI to fake his death to save his life!! Elvis and his family have received numerous death threats too prior to 1977!!

[Australian MJ BeLIEver]

:bowdown: I love you TS,  :bowdown: I believe in you TS, but I can't get my head around DWD! Sorry... Can't swallow it...

(The following Q's are for TS or anyone else who cares to reply)

I know we are looking at things from a factual non emotional POV, but just curious, from a scriptural point of view, we know you are a biblical man / woman, is DWD scripturally ethical? Couldn't it be considered playing God? In your opinion is MJ comfortable with DWD? (Not judging here, just curious as it is one of the common arguments against DWD esp from Christians)  :icon_e_confused:

In addition, re: FBI and Entrapment. If FBI involvement is present, is there any need to protect against and avoid entrapment via MJDHI?  :suspect:

If there is FBI involvement and 'project hoax' (if it constitutes a sting) is discussed here on the forum, doesn't that compromise the security of the sting / project.  :suspect:

I vote NO to Body, NO to DWD / HOSPICE and YES to both or either Dummy / MJ. I also vote YES to Devils Advocate!  :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:

Sorry... If I am wrong, I am sorry..   :smiley-vault-misc-150:

My brain must work incorrectly. I apologize for trying to make others believe my bullshit.

@ Bec and others who may be disheartened. Hold up. Don't fret TS may have the ol' joker card of devils advocate... The list is NOT BS!

@ Bec - Just because there isn't already enough L.O.V.E for you in the room (not) ... Hope you're foot heals well and you are able to seek some kind of medical attention. I wish there was a way around that or some way we could help? Is there? It sux that access to medical care is so difficult in the self proclaimed Land of Opportunity. It makes me mad! :icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_redface: Your post makes me feel grateful to be able to walk into any of the 10 medical centers within 5 minutes drive in any desired direction, absolutely free of charge. I will remember what you said next time I am whinging to myself about the waiting time to see a doctor when I get there. Thanks for the reality check. Not being smart, just thinking how I need to chill and remember how fortunate we are here in Australia instead of moaning about trivial crap like waiting times the price of medication, etc.

Good health to you my friend.

UYI

BAM could go either way, the way we expect it or the way we don't, so we shouldn't have a definite set of expectations, although again nothing wrong with that, but if we expect that we will be disappointed if the outcome is not our own then we might not want to write our expectations in stone, but the sand.
I mean if you expect everything, you'll get disappointed by anything.

You know I just don't have a foggy clue what it will look like, anywhere from a TMZ posting of Harvey doing a live interview with the real MJ with his shades on, (Wouldn't that be awesome!) to a giant MJ hologram in the sky in 14 key cities around the world like the huge statues MJ had made for History, to MJ appearing atop the Mayan temple on 12/21/12 with cameras beaming the occasion live to TV, to another press conference in London with the same MJ, to a Youtube message like Dr. Murray's thanking his fans  :icon_lol: or a Christmas message to the world, to Jordie and Gavin giving a Youtube message that they lied and then introducing MJ,  to IDK--I've run out of ideas... :icon_e_sad: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_razz:  Hey how about all the cast of the hoax lining up on stage at the Mayan event including Murray, KO, TP, the Jacksons, and the hundred others, and then MJ comes on stage!!  Maybe you guys can think of other possibilities--I just draw a blank, and of course NOTHING might happen  :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry:

To add to that a pre-recorded message from MJ to be aired to the world, in which he explains he is alive and reason for hoax whilst holding a copy of a current dated newspaper as proof to shut up the nay-sayers!  :icon_razz: :icon_razz: :icon_razz:

[curls]

Thanks for your comments SimPatty.

[SimPattyK]

[...] I don't understand the 'whys', the motive if you like, of the DWD theory, because we aren't allowed to know them because its FBI business.
I could pick holes in the DWD theory but what's the point?

I don't know... maybe you should go ahead and say what's on your mind regarding the DWD theory!
The point would be to eliminate your doubts. Who knows maybe TS will reply to your objections and clarify things for you...

Maybe we should all, take a break from the current discussion here, just relax a bit, and then re-read most of TS posts from the very beginning! and then focus more on his last messages here in this thread. Maybe things will become clearer then... for everyone!

much LOVE to you all!  :bearhug:

[SimPattyK]

(The following Q's are for TS or anyone else who cares to reply)

I know we are looking at things from a factual non emotional POV, but just curious, from a scriptural point of view, we know you are a biblical man / woman, is DWD scripturally ethical?

I think we should make the distinction between what people THINK (personal POVs, emotions, religious beliefs, etc) and what was actually DONE! [with or without Michael's will/knowing of it!]
Just because some people don't agree with the DWD practice, it doesn't mean it wasn't used for this hoax!

And there is also this thing that @ellyd mentioned: we have here the possibility that the FBI sting was targeting the "donors/organs-dealers/mafia"!
Then think: if they manage to catch those monsters with the help of a DWD patient, do you still think it was a bad/unethical (against Scripture) thing they did?
I mean, you need to decide which thing is worse out of the two!

[Australian MJ BeLIEver]

I think we should make the distinction between what people THINK (personal POVs, emotions, religious beliefs, etc) and what was actually DONE! [with or without Michael's will/knowing of it!]
Just because some people don't agree with the DWD practice, it doesn't mean it wasn't used for this hoax!

a) I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with DWD.
b) If DWD was used in MJs own hoax I am sure he would have known about it / authorized or denied it as he is driver
c) If DWD was used (then aside all of the logical explanations for body theory) the natural thought process is that MJ is ok ethically with DWD. More of an observation not using it to 'solve' current theory investigation.
d) Regardless of the varying POV's, There is STILL NO WAY of making a distinction (as per your words) of 'what was actually DONE!' Even if TS says DWD was used doesn't mean it is so (que devils advocate)
Its just a statement / question from a scriptural and ethical point of view. Not necessarily even my point of view. (Trust me, I ain't bible bashing here) But by default if TS says that DWD was used, then by default the inference is that MJ is ethically and scripturally ok with DWD, which I just find interesting. It was just a side comment in the form of a Q that's all.
EDIT:I know that I am 'breaking the rules' even going down the scriptural / ethical road, but if DWD were used, then it does lend the question to what I raised. And perhaps I AM clutching at straws because I simply don't believe a body / DWD was used, and yet MR.ihaveananswerforeverything has trumped MJ live / Dummy theory. :icon_mrgreen:

With L.O.V.E

[Sarahli]

I pray your foot heals soon Bec,

:bearhug:

[SimPattyK]

I think we should make the distinction between what people THINK (personal POVs, emotions, religious beliefs, etc) and what was actually DONE! [with or without Michael's will/knowing of it!]
Just because some people don't agree with the DWD practice, it doesn't mean it wasn't used for this hoax!

a) I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with DWD.

But you questioned above whether DWD practice was ethical or not. To me this implies you also disagree with it. (which is your right!)

b) If DWD was used in MJs own hoax I am sure he would have known about it / authorized or denied it as he is driver

Of course TS (MJ) knew about the use of a DWD patient. TS said that MJ doesn't know everything about that day.

c) If DWD was used (then aside all of the logical explanations for body theory)

Why leave aside all the logical explanations? It seems to me you refuse to accept them. But that's of course your choice and I respect it.

the natural thought process is that MJ is ok ethically with DWD.

That's your assumption.
Maybe he is ethically OK with it, maybe he's not. Can you know the answer with certainty?
And then it's his right to agree or not with it. Who are we to judge that?

As I said... maybe he had no choice but agree with the terms of the FBI ! their way or no way! And then again you need to think at the purpose for which it was done! It was for a great , good purpose!

d) Regardless of the varying POV's, There is STILL no way of knowing or distinction (as per your words) 'what was actually DONE!' Even if TS says DWD was used doesn't mean it is so (que devils advocate)

But you mentioned at point c) here above ^^ That there are LOGICAL EXPLANATIONS!
It wasn't just TS saying that! he backed up what he says with logical explanations.
But you chose to leave them aside...

Its just a statement / question from a scriptural and ethical point of view. Not necessarily even my point of view. (Trust me, I ain't bible bashing here) But by default if TS says that DWD was used, then by default the inference is that MJ is ethically and scripturally ok with DWD, which I just find interesting.

Ok, so your point of view is that you find it interesting for MJ to be "scripturally ok with DWD".

So you leave aside the logical explanations [as you said at point c)] and stick to your point of view which is: interesting  for MJ to be "scripturally ok with DWD".
I'm sorry @Aussie, pls don't take it wrong, but you just don't make sense. At least not me.