TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[scorpionchik]

I am not putting all my hopes on TS' replies because I am almost sure that the real hoax story will be written in a book or filmed in a movie and I am even thinking that the whole world will be able to be aware of Michael being alive but Michael himself will not be exposed to the public eye anymore for safety reasons so BAM party is being just a chimera right now for me.

ps: good job Bec!.

good point,but I  think if MJ does not appear personally, non believers will not believe announcement that MJ is alive esp. after death announcement  by Jermain, unless Obama annouces himself. So, no point to spread 'alive' news without Michael actual BAM.
Plus, remember MJ hint 'BAM' himslef in TII. /b]

[ellyd]

In my understanding, DWD do stress that their approach is not comparable to suicide but only speeding up a natural death that would occur anyway. Fine line, different matters.

Given the fact that MJ decided to die on a certain date and planned this, we are talking about his (allegorical, artistic and assisted) suicide - he used the concept of DWD. Before handing power over his life to others, he decided himself when it would be time to leave.
MJ was however not - as to my knowledge - a terminally ill person trying to speed inevitable things up. Not to mix up.
MJ's role in the script turned out to be that of willing suicide hidden by "death by negligent prescription of controlled and uncontrolled drugs" and not that of a DWD participant - but not ending and only beginning anew from that turning point.
This will be one of the outcomes of a BAM: revelation of an assisted suicide on purpose (in order to bring to daylight other crimes). No matter what legal situations are, the discussions about DWD will start as soon as MJ returns and truth is revealed.
We can calmly anticipate the heated discussions - TS brought it up in time because he's clear about the consequences and the uproar.

DWD is a controversial matter but from European perspective, we are more used to this kind of self-determined shortening of suffering. Who works in hospices will know what death looks like and it is not always very pleasant - if the people get into this supportive environment at all. We need many more hospices to keep dignity alive for dying persons.
It is the same kind of controversial discussion that was raised (and still is causing war among fundamentalists in the U.S.) about abortion. Just that fundamentalists usually do not help in a specific case, unfortunately.

It will be interesting to see the responses to MJ's "assisted suicide" and I guess we will be in duty pretty much to help explain the why's. Blessings to all.

[voiceforthesilent]

Great job everyone for contributing to that list and thank you, Bec, for doing an excellent job of outlining the details/observations. It was really helpful to see a full list like that laid out side-by-side.

I still stand by my belief that it cannot be a DWD patient but we'll see as the truth will prevail in the end.

Very interesting.

Blessings to each of you.

[bec]

In my understanding, DWD do stress that their approach is not comparable to suicide but only speeding up a natural death that would occur anyway.

[philosophical mode] Ah, but isn't that what all untimely deaths are? Time is a one way street with no loitering. [/philosophical mode]

[Love4Michael]

I know this isn't the usual place for such things but this came to me and seemed appropriate to post here while we await a response from TS.  Bec gave him LOTS of homework right back...LOL.  Anyway...much thanks to our "whisperers" along the way and to Souza for not giving up.  I know it HAD to be tempting from time to time.  So in honor of everyone...our determination and of course our brilliant minds...

We’ve peeked in every corner
Dug deep under each new rock
Wrestled with all the hints and whispers
Whether shadows or a clock

We’ve googled ‘til our minds were numb
And eyes seemed permanently crossed
We’ve kept a brave front to all who say
Our minds we surely had lost

We were promised a great adventure
And willingly accepted the ride
For the highest highs and lowest lows
And sometimes our patience was tried

But as I sit and write this little piece
My mind is pretty well certain
That all still here would never trade
One moment behind the curtain

As we near this rides conclusion
At least that’s what most believe
Seems we’re on the cusp of finding out
What The Man had up his sleeve

I pray everything’s as it needs to be
As we slowly draw back the veil
May our hearts be happy and smiles abound
As we finally, collectively exhale


At least we'll hopefully have an AH HAA moment or two and some deeper knowledge and better preparation for the finale.  I have to say that I'm excited but apprehensive all at the same time.  Oh well...I just want things to go however Michael wants them to and I want him to be happy at the outcome.

[Australian MJ BeLIEver]

@TS, I have several more reasons then a dozen. I tried to whittle the list down to the meatiest parts, but, well, it's all main course and not a single leftover. But on the plus side I gave you a whole extra day to deal with the extra work before your dead(ha)line!

Thank you to everyone who pm'ed me with good info. I hope I have done us all justice with these lists. Here goes...

12 reasons against dead body theory

• The chances of someone other then MJ that looks enough like MJ to fool everyone ( double) dying of natural means (or Propofol) in accordance with the numerology, perfectly on time, who also happened to be residing at Carrolwood that day is a statistical impossibility.
• Assisted suicide or DWD is against the law in California. California penal code section 401: Every person who deliberately aids, or advises, or encourages a person to commit suicide, is guilty of a felony. MJ, Murray, and AEG would all be guilty in accordance with the wording of the law.
• A real body would need to get into Carrolwood somehow and at some point. On 6/25/09, the staff was sent out of the house before the stretcher came down indicating that they were not in on, so therefore would need to be shielded from the body’s arrival as well.
• A real body would need to be stored until go time. Dead bodies are messy n ought not be stored in private residences and few private residences would be set up to properly house a corpse. This is a public health risk that would necessitate specific accommodations. This is also a zoning violation (at best), and potentially a small string of misdemeanors and minor felonies resulting from abuse of a corpse, tampering with a corpse, others.
• If a real body were frozen to facilitate storage, it would be at the wrong temperature to fool emergency workers, and by the time the core was thawed, the outer tissues would be mush. Additionally, once-frozen-now-thawed tissue is distinctive and shows up clearly upon autopsy.
• A fresh dead corpse would be subject to rigor mortis within minutes and lasting for hours, making entubulation of the airway/locating and tapping a vein impossible.
• It was reported that the body was ID’ed from MJ’s driver’s license at the hospital. Neither a DWD patient nor a random corpse could be ID’ed as MJ from a pic of MJ.
• UCLA spokesperson did not make a statement in the death of MJ, counter to what is typical with a high profile death at a hospital. Instead, Jermaine Jackson made the statement. UCLA specifically dodged making any kind of statement regarding MJ at all, rather printing the family’s prewritten words instead.
• No doctor came forward initially to sign the death certificate. If there were a real body entering UCLA that day, there should be no problem getting a DC for it signed.
• The body wouldn’t look like MJ and ambulance/gurney/autopsy pics clearly depict MJ, and not an apparent hospice patient as was testified by paramedics.
• Makes the entire story, start to finish, a lie. MJ was not attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ didn’t go to UCLA, MJ didn’t get transported via helicopter, MJ did not go to the coroner’s office.
• Both paramedics that testified attested that the patient looked like MJ. A DWD patient or random corpse are not going to resemble MJ enough for both paramedics to testify that they recognized him.
• No IV drip was witnessed suspended above the patient in the stretcher gif and if a real person was being attended in a medical emergency, and was reportedly already ported with an IV when paramedics arrived, after 42 minutes of attendance during which they are treating him as not dead and administering IV injections, it is extremely unlikely that the patient would not be started on fluids within that amount of time.
• The official story is that Dr. Cooper was able to rouse some heart activity in the patient at UCLA for several minutes. This would be impossible if she were working on a stored corpse, and nearing impossible on a DWD patient who had consumed suicide medication 1 hour (or more) prior.
• If the patient were a DWD patient, then rescue efforts such as those described having been administered to MJ violates ethics on the part of MJ, Murray, and AEG (and any other potential producers/financial backers of DH), for knowingly allowing a person who’s will it was to end their life peacefully under their own control, be subjected to extreme methods of resuscitation for an extended duration of time. Successful or not, this action is a direct violation of this patient’s end of life wishes.
• Because of points 4, 5, 6, and 7, the paramedics and ER emergency Dr.’s are required to be in on it, so we lack motive of who the real body is designed to fool.

12 reasons supporting Live MJ theory

• MJ was reported to be “Alive at UCLA”.
• Allows for on-the-scene direction/consultation in case anything unforeseen ocurred which required on-the-spot changes or alterations in the plan.
• Completely eliminates the risk that the hoax will be ruined by MJ being discovered safe and hiding somewhere else, or sneaking away shortly before 6/25/09, when he is supposed to be suddenly dead/dying at UCLA that day.
• MJ had to leave Carrolwood somehow, at some point, same as above, allows MJ to not be discovered/seen leaving Carrolwood anytime sooner or later then reported.
• Eliminates the need for MJ to hide, be disguised, travel to, and arrange for insiders at a 2nd or 3rd location as would be necessary to coordinate if escaping via another means.
• Allows MJ to have photos taken as reported for gurney and autopsy, ensuring that those photos cannot be discovered too early (them being discovered to be in existence pre 6/25/09 would be a big problem), nor will those photos show up too late to potentially rouse suspicion of someone in a paperwork position not in on the hoax (autopsy was performed 6/26 so those pics needed to exist by then).
• Allows emergency workers to be able to accurately recall events because MJ is really there on the stretcher (probably really wearing that gown). Live simulations could be run through, in the time allowed at each location, to allow workers to have real memories, rather then fabricated alibis. MJ is not dealing with seasoned actors here, and they’re playing the role of their lives, so it is best if people are given an opportunity to have something real to remember.
• Allows validation of the official story should anyone not in on the hoax happen to catch a quick glimpse of the stretcher going by at any point along the way, they would really see MJ.
• Allows for unforeseen occurrences to be encountered (ambulance break down, unauthorized peaks through windows in locked doors, etc) because, just as reported, MJ is indeed just where he is supposed to be.
• Shortly after the ambulance arrives, the fire alarm was pulled in the portion of UCLA that MJ was reportedly in on 6/25/09, effectively minimizing the unauthorized opportunities outlined in points 8 & 9.
• Gives MJ a perfect escape out of UCLA, because again, he could do exactly as is reported and take the helicopter to the waiting coroner van. If he chose to go a different direction, even last minute, there would be dozens of other escape plans A-Z to explore out of the highly trafficked UCLA campus.
• Gives the official story a consistently interwoven element of truth; MJ really was attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ really did go to UCLA, MJ really did get transported via helicopter, MJ really did go to the coroner’s office.
• Explains why MJ’s kids stopped crying when they were done seeing their dad’s body, the scene as described by LaToya. They stopped crying because they saw Dad’s not dead.
• Explains Jermaine’s “slip up” airport comment. Jermaine said MJ wasn’t “with us long before he went to the airport… I mean hospital.” … which is 100% accurate. Just like Jermaine said. He said he meant hospital, and if we can’t trust Jermaine’s word as a true clue, what CAN we trust? :icon_geek:
• Changes the least amount of variables from the official story. The only thing that isn’t true is MJ being dead.

 :compute:

great post. logical indeed. just sharing it now with a few fence sitting friends  :icon_razz:

thanks bec and to those who contributed

awesome stuff!  :smiley_abuv:

[RedPennylocks]

I know this isn't the usual place for such things but this came to me and seemed appropriate to post here while we await a response from TS.  Bec gave him LOTS of homework right back...LOL.  Anyway...much thanks to our "whisperers" along the way and to Souza for not giving up.  I know it HAD to be tempting from time to time.  So in honor of everyone...our determination and of course our brilliant minds...

We’ve peeked in every corner
Dug deep under each new rock
Wrestled with all the hints and whispers
Whether shadows or a clock

We’ve googled ‘til our minds were numb
And eyes seemed permanently crossed
We’ve kept a brave front to all who say
Our minds we surely had lost

We were promised a great adventure
And willingly accepted the ride
For the highest highs and lowest lows
And sometimes our patience was tried

But as I sit and write this little piece
My mind is pretty well certain
That all still here would never trade
One moment behind the curtain

As we near this rides conclusion
At least that’s what most believe
Seems we’re on the cusp of finding out
What The Man had up his sleeve

I pray everything’s as it needs to be
As we slowly draw back the veil
May our hearts be happy and smiles abound
As we finally, collectively exhale


At least we'll hopefully have an AH HAA moment or two and some deeper knowledge and better preparation for the finale.  I have to say that I'm excited but apprehensive all at the same time.  Oh well...I just want things to go however Michael wants them to and I want him to be happy at the outcome.

 :th_bravo: :bearhug:

[Australian MJ BeLIEver]

Great job, Bec!   :beerchug: I can hardly wait to read the replies from TS.

true.

mr. Ihaveananswerforeverything LOL


with  :smiley_abuv: TS .... and hearts

[mjselfsweet]

The amount of intelligent discussion about the task put before everyone is amazing, i can only read and read and go wow!


Bec your lists were great!

[Thriller4ever]

In regards to the DWD act allowing (or not) a patient to ingest the drugs in another state: I had sent an email asking that specific question to the Washington State Department of Health and I received the following answer; they confirm that it is possible:

Hello:
Thank you for contacting our office about the Washington State Death with Dignity Act.
Under the terms of the act, the participant is not restricted to a location where they must ingest the medication.  However, the laws in states in which there is not a similar comparable DWDA law differ regarding the intentional ingestion of life-ending medication.  For example,  if the participant chooses to self-administer the medication in another state, the person who certifies the death (i.e. the MD/ME who signs the death certificate and determines the cause of death) is not bound by the WA state Death with Dignity law that requires the manner of death be marked as natural and the underlying cause of death listed as the terminal disease. In other words, the certifier may use terms such as suicide or assisted suicide, and may list the cause of death as poisoning and/or overdose.    In WA State, the underlying cause of death must be listed as the terminal disease and the manner of death must be marked as ‘Natural”.
 
The WA State DWDA is also drafted to ensure the confidentiality of the families of DWDA participants who may experience emotional distress if a family member’s participation were to be disclosed.  They may also lose access to life, health, and accident insurance or annuity claims if the death is listed as “assisted suicide.”  The end-of-life choices of the participant may be disclosed if the medication is ingested outside of WA state.
 
There are a number of issues to consider if the life-ending medication is self-administered in another state that does not have a Death with Dignity law similar to WA State’s law.

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That's it !
           ...DWDA is not covered in other states other than OR/WA and it's a CRIME in California...


And that only brings us to Live MJ theory.

this is so clear, in no way Michael would have used DWDA, even if the FBI's with him (because it's not gonna go against the law)

[MJonmind]

Love4Michael, beautiful poem—fits nicely!

Ellyd

MJ's role in the script turned out to be that of willing suicide hidden by "death by negligent prescription of controlled and uncontrolled drugs" and not that of a DWD participant - but not ending and only beginning anew from that turning point.
This will be one of the outcomes of a BAM: revelation of an assisted suicide on purpose (in order to bring to daylight other crimes). No matter what legal situations are, the discussions about DWD will start as soon as MJ returns and truth is revealed.
We can calmly anticipate the heated discussions - TS brought it up in time because he's clear about the consequences and the uproar.

It's going to be interesting then.  Teddy Riley said MJ lives for controversy. 

I found this moving Canadian story of a woman who travelled to Switzerland to die. Apparently the police leave these families alone/look the other way when they come back home. However MJ, Murray and AEG are not the DWD patient's loved ones. 
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In Britain, which has anti-assisted suicide laws similar to Canada, researcher Ogden said prosecutors have consistently chosen to practise "judicial discretion" and not charge any of the loved ones who might have supported the 134 citizens who ended their days at Dignitas, including those whose cases hit the news. Ogden believes Canadian prosecutors would likely follow the same course of inaction in regards to Kay.
For her part, Lee said her mother hoped that Canadians would learn the story of her death. "She wants people in Canada to talk about it. She believes it's a choice Canadians should have."

So maybe MJ is trying to raise awareness of this.  I think abortion is more detrimental that DWD (yet perfectly legal), because it's ending a life that didn't get a chance to experience anything, and that child didn't get to choose, whereas the DWD patient chooses.

[bec]

mr. Ihaveananswerforeverything LOL

Cheers to that. I await tomorrow not having any idea what to expect.

[Adi]

Yes - I don't think anyone here should be getting too smug about the outcome of the replies which TS will give.

No-one here knows for sure what went down that day........it is all personal interpretation, conjecture, perception and speculation based on what we have been shown, told and read.....an iceberg has the the greatest percentage of it unseen and lurking under water.

[jono]

Because DWD is not legal in CA, and the CA penal code specifically lays out how the state law considers a second party's knowledge of or encouragement for suicide, it would be illegal for MJ and AEG (or equivalent--whoever is the production company working with MJ) to use a DWD patient to help MJ fake his death. They would already be guilty of failure to report, encouraging suicide, facilitating a suicide: essentially aiding and abetting a suicide. These are felony crimes.

I am looking forward to your answer on this one TS!   

[Australian MJ BeLIEver]

Yes - I don't think anyone here should be getting too smug about the outcome of the replies which TS will give.

not being smug. more comical. coz we never get it 100% right. no matter how much hoaxers deduce, imagine, fill in the gaps, think, etc etc always so close / so far.  :icon_razz:

you are right, only one person knows it all.  :bowdown:


frikken genius i must say!