TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[TS_comments]

... So, let me get my flag  :smiley-vault-misc-150: and say to you that I cannot apologize enough for that and I hope you can forgive me for that.

Absolutely!

 :bearhug:

[TS_comments]

... they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain.

Often things that appear contradictory are actually just misinterpretations of what is said.   :icon_bounce:

In this case, I was joking about MJ leaving from LA on June 25, 2009, and driving directly to Bahrain in a car--that, of course, was a joke.  But just because MJ did not go direct from LA to Bahrain on 6-25-09 (via car--or even airplane or boat), does not mean that he has never once been in Bahrain since the day he "died".  Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.

[MJonmind]

I know what you’re saying BTC, and that last post you gave of TS saying he hadn’t changed his theory is the most helpful—he’s sounding like he’s being honest there.   Lol  It’s easy for him if he knows where the puzzle pieces go.  Personally I lean towards trusting him that MJ did go to the airport and they used a DWD patient, but I still want to explore ALL the options fully and not leave anything to assumptions.

In the other posts you gave, if anything TS sounds more like a sports play-by-play announcer, or like on Survivor host Jeff Probst gives the rules and then tells how each team is doing while they compete in the physical games. Then at the voting time he likes to draw out how players are feeling/thinking and how the strategy of winning is going. 

Thriller4ever, good video of Latoya--she is such a good actress. Strange how she says  MJ ‘was to go directly to the hospital but he didn’t make it’.  I know she’s talking about Lloyds of London Insurance needing to have a doctor verify his health, but still why a hospital and not a doctor's office…   And as for the kids never crying a tear again after seeing MJ dead in the hospital, NEVER could I believe that unless that was truly MJ alive they saw.  And if it was a dead DWD patient that was a stranger to them, I can't hardly imagine them kissing it, touching it and, crying and saying thanks and other things.

Yes Bec, Joe's words before I went to see it, totally influenced me picking MJ apart while watching it. Now I can laugh about it.  So he was misleading to get the hoaxers theorizing, and it wasn't the truth, although there may have been brief appearances of a double in a few spots like the stunt with the bullets, and there was the pic showing 2 MJ's dressed the same.

[paula-c]

... they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain.

Often things that appear contradictory are actually just misinterpretations of what is said.   :icon_bounce:

In this case, I was joking about MJ leaving from LA on June 25, 2009, and driving directly to Bahrain in a car--that, of course, was a joke.  But just because MJ did not go direct from LA to Bahrain on 6-25-09 (via car--or even airplane or boat), does not mean that he has never once been in Bahrain since the day he "died".  Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.

that's all? :icon_bounce:

[TS_comments]

I have read all of the posts up to this point, and unfortunately I don't have enough time make a reply to every post.

So in the interest of finishing in the next couple of days: I would request bec, in the next day or so, to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include).  You may use new reasons, and/or review previous reasons posted by yourself and/or others.  Please number each point, so that I can reply to each point directly by number.

 :argue:

After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM.

 :affraid:

[paula-c]

Sometimes I think that lately TS play with us ... i am going to lunch

[hesouttamylife]

 :icon_question: :icon_e_confused: :Crash:

[Jos]

I have read all of the posts up to this point, and unfortunately I don't have enough time make a reply to every post.

So in the interest of finishing in the next couple of days: I would request bec, in the next day or so, to compile a list of up to about a dozen reasons against the DWD and/or corpse theory—and also up to about a dozen reasons for the live MJ and/or dummy theory (or whatever other theory you want to include).  You may use new reasons, and/or review previous reasons posted by yourself and/or others.  Please number each point, so that I can reply to each point directly by number.

 :argue:

After I give my replies, others may continue to investigate on this thread as long as they wish; but I probably will not be posting here much if at all after that, at least not before BAM.

 :affraid:

And after BAM you will explain some things, so we understand it all better?

... So, let me get my flag  :smiley-vault-misc-150: and say to you that I cannot apologize enough for that and I hope you can forgive me for that.

Absolutely!

 :bearhug:

 :bearhug: thank you!

[bec]

We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ.  And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also?  In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it.  Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.

In level one, we found that the ambulance photo was staged in advance. In level two, we found that at least a few key people in the FBI are helping with the hoax (and cooperating with one or more in the LAFD).  In level three, there are still a few different ideas about who or what (if anything) went in the ambulance on the stretcher to UCLA; most agree however that a corpse was not used.

The question of whether all, some, or none of the paramedics are in on the hoax, is a question that has not yet been answered with at least two strong points which nobody can debunk. Nevertheless, between the staged ambulance photo, and especially with the FBI involvement: nearly everyone is agreed that at least one or more of the paramedics are in on it. 

On the other hand, though, so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don’t dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.

TS is very clear here about what kind of evidence is required to support Live MJ theory (and debunk corpse theory), ALL the paramedics must be in on it, and we need two strong points to prove it.

Let me see if I can stay organized this time around.

We could use process of elimination technique.

We have 4 paramedics in the room. We know this because Blount testified that 3 paramedics arrived at the scene on the firetruck, and 2 arrived in the ambulance. One man remained on the street with the firetruck; he is witnessed on the tourist video setting road cones. This leaves 4 paramedics to go into the house. We also witness 4 paramedics entering UCLA in stretcher gif. Blount testifies also to being seated in the jump seat en route to UCLA "at the head". He is not witnessed in the ambulance photo, but we know there to be additional seating on the passenger side of the cabin, rearward of the side window, which would be outside of the photo frame when shit through the perspective of that window, so we know that 3 paramedics were in the back of the ambulance en route to UCLA. That leaves one driver, so all the info makes sense thus far.

We know the driver is in on it. He backed out of the driveway allowing the famous photo to be snapped. If he wasn't in on it, he would have followed protocol, as well as responded to the pressures at the scene, with paparazzi and gawkers milling about on the street, and a roundabout driveway at his disposal, and driven forward out of the driveway.

Check one paramedic off the list and put this guy aside.

The reason we can use the ambulance pic (known to be staged) as evidence of these seating positions is because the pic went public shortly after the event and IF it depicted anything inaccurately, it would be obvious to those who were there that it was staged. If anyone unauthorized realizes that the pic is fake, this risks the hoax. Why? Because it rouses serious suspicion. Why is there a need for a fake death photo if MJ is really dead? If the pic can be proven fake, it exposes Ben to some pretty serious potential liability, namely fraud. He sold the photo to a media company for some pretty serious money. If the pic turns out to be fake he could be (and probably would be) sued. But a bigger concern that comes up should the pic be found to be fake, is it opens up the question of HOW it was staged, considering MJ is clearly laying there, and he's supposed to be (by then) dead. DID MJ know ahead of time that he would suffer a medical emergency requiring ambulance transport and have this pic staged for that event? Fishy.

If the paramedics are all in on it, that is irrelevant, as they are not going to protest what's seen in the pic as being inaccurate and blow the very hoax they are involved with.

But if they are not in on it, the pic must (or ought to) match exactly what happens. How could that be ensured?

The pic had to be staged ahead of time, as it is layered, doesn't match the sunlight cast at the scene. It was sold to Entertainment Tonight within hours of the event, and it required a subject to appear in it that matched the physical description of at least Senneff. If the paramedics weren't all in on it, and you were prepared with a fake pic to sell after the fact, what happens if, say, Blount mans the patient's airway? Or performs compressions? Then you have a $$ photo that's supposed to hit magazine covers the next morning that doesn't match the scene!

One could argue that is all irrelevant, as the pic does match what occurred, so perhaps they got lucky (unlikely to leave this up to luck, but it's what DID happen so it's a non-issue for debate purposes).

Even if luck played a hand, and not all paramedics are in on it, and the staged pic thankfully matched what ended up occurring, and depicting all the players in their proper locations (and not depicting those who it ought not), we still have a subject on that stretcher that is recognizable as the King of Pop.

So at least the three paramedics riding in the back of the ambulance, in clear view of the patient (and all three that are back there having put their hands on the patient at some point, Blount having testified to that fact, and the other 2 being witnessed working on the patient), must be aware that the patient is MJ. If not immediately (as testified) then eventually, once the news hit the airwaves, everyone knew MJ was dead following an emergency call at his residence.

Publicly, we have an ambulance pic clearly depicting MJ on the stretcher.

If a hospice patient were used for this portion of the hoax, then we have already agreed that the chances of that patient looking like MJ are statistically approaching the impossibility factor. No matter says TS and others? The public may accept that stage makeup accounts for the appearance we, the general public associate with MJ. The paramedics may simply not "notice" the patient's facial features closely enough to say it wasn't him, after all they are in the midst of lifesaving actions here, not studying his face for glimmers of recognition. That's fair.

HOWEVER...

The ambulance pic is a dead ringer for KoP and the paramedic crew get just as much time as the rest of us to study it after the fact and refer to their memory banks and decide if what they see in that pic matches what they remember from the scene.

Perhaps they just can't remember. It was a flurry of activity, after all, so much happening at once in an emergency situation, and again, they weren't studying his face. They were working on his BODY.

You know the whole problem with the patient in the ambulance pic not matching reality and only the paramedics knowing this for certain could be explained away by saying professional paramedics simply aren't going to get involved in some media scandal of fake celebrity photos sold to tabloid rags. Fine. For argument sake let's go along with this and forget his face in the ambulance pic.

Both Senneff and Blount testified that the patient looked like a hospice patient, very thin, emaciated, etc. Appeared to be "down" for sometime before they arrived. Apparently the appearance of the patient's body made quite the impression on these men, to remember so vividly the man's condition.

This photo was provided to the court as autopsy pic:


Does that look like an emaciated hospice patient to anyone? Not to mention, it's clearly MJ.

How do we explain two pieces of court submitted evidence (witness testimony and autopsy pic) that completely contradict each other?

How do we explain Senneff and Blount sitting there on the stand and testifying to something that directly contradicts submitted evidence?

We also have clearly MJ depicted still at the hospital (in case someone wants to argue that we have already established that the coroner is in on it, so what ended up in the autopsy room need not be what was worked on at UCLA).



So we have 3 images of what's clearly MJ on the stretcher/gurney in all 3 locations in question on 6/25/09 (ambulance, UCLA, coroner) and if not all the players are in on it, why is not one single person piping up to say, "hey, that's not the patient I worked on"? What are the chances?

Driver is in on it, established effectively and unprotested.

The paramedic team needed to be prearranged, as the 911 call did not come in through the usual channels and so therefore someone at LAFD needed to be in on it to enter that info into the computer (yet not enter it into official call logs for that day). Someone had to send these guys out on call.

We have a good argument for Senneff and Blount being in on it, as their testimony does not match the evidence photos, and never once has they/did they protest this fact.

The only thing I have on the 4th guy is all of the above. If the patient he put his hands on didn't match the evidence photos you'd think that would be a problem for the success of the hoax. That's merely a connection of reason, however, so if anyone wants to jump in and help out here, now's the time, lol.

[jono]

... they could also be giving out distraction clues for the many hoaxers of differing theories. Jermaine and Marlon (I think) were wearing T-shirts that said Bahrain and Ireland, hinting to hoaxers that maybe MJ was there, but now TS said he was joking that it's hard to take a car to Bahrain.

Often things that appear contradictory are actually just misinterpretations of what is said.   :icon_bounce:

In this case, I was joking about MJ leaving from LA on June 25, 2009, and driving directly to Bahrain in a car--that, of course, was a joke.  But just because MJ did not go direct from LA to Bahrain on 6-25-09 (via car--or even airplane or boat), does not mean that he has never once been in Bahrain since the day he "died".  Elvis, for example, has traveled around quite a bit during his "dead" life.

Makes me wonder... How do you know that with such certainty?   

Good to have you back TS! Although, I have to to agree with a lot of you wonderful investigators in here.. I smell BS from the DWD silver plate leftovers  :LolLolLolLol:

...But who knows?  :smiley-vault-misc-150:

[bec]

Wait, I have homework? Why just me?

I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.

Anyone wanna help?  :smiley-vault-misc-150:

[jono]

Wait, I have homework? Why just me?

I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.

Anyone wanna help?  :smiley-vault-misc-150:

 :over-react-smiley:    :LolLolLolLol:

[diggyon]

Wait, I have homework? Why just me?

I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.

Anyone wanna help?  :smiley-vault-misc-150:

Hahahaha  :thjajaja121: :thjajaja121:

bec has a homework!!!!

[BeTheChange]

I, too, believe that 'ideally' they'd want ALL the paramedics in on it.  However, proving they were ALL in on it is much harder to do (God knows we've tried lol).  First, we only had 2 of them testify...which, even with having their testimonies, we still can't figure out if they (at least) both were in on it.  Blount being from a different shift is 'curious'....but that, too, doesn't automatically mean he was in on it or that he wasn't.

Using the ambulance photo to figure it out is tough to do as well.  Sure, we can assume that IF Blount, or some other paramedic, wasn't in on it...they would've spoken up.  But that would just be an assumption....maybe they would've, maybe not (especially if they were told after the fact that they shouldn't speak up).  We do know that Blount supposedly told the stalker fan that it didn't look like MJ.  If we take that as 'fact' (that he actually did say that)...then there's two possibilities:

1) he wasn't in on it
- if he wasn't in on it, why would he lie?  He would've been telling the 'fan' what he thought/saw...and that was that it didn't look like Mike....which does tie in with his description of a hospice, frail, old man looking patient (i.e. NOT MJ looking).  If this is the case (that Blount's NOT in on it)...then the Live MJ, dummy, nothing and living double theories are out.

2) he was in on it
- if he was in on it, why would he lie?  If Blount was in the know...and therefore was following script...which called for the public to believe that it WAS Mike who was laying on the stretcher and dying...why would he AGREE with the stalker fan that it didn't look like Mike?  You'd think he'd want to reassure the 'fan' or anyone else questioning the 'official' story that they were incorrect and that it WAS MJ. 

Blount then changed his story on the stand to say he recognized it WAS MJ.  This could suggest that on June 25th, he wasn't in on it...but at some point later HAD to be brought in (hence the change in his 'recollection').  Of course, it's not 'foolproof'....like with everything else, very difficult to prove. 

Edited to add:  Just trying to 'disprove' my own thinking...IF Blount wasn't in on it and for whatever 'unknown' reason showed up that day, why wouldn't 'they' have given him a less 'hands-on' role, than the one he did get?  I do recall this line of questioning during the trial...him being asked about how their 'duties' and/or 'roles' are determined/assigned...but I'd have to go back and re-listen to what he said.  IF he wasn't in on it, maybe it was beyond their control as to which 'role' he had?  Or maybe him having a hands-on role didn't even matter (i.e. if it was a corpse)?

With L.O.V.E. always.

[Andrea]

Wait, I have homework? Why just me?

I didn't see that before I posted that novel. Hmm, ok, I shall do my best.

Anyone wanna help?  :smiley-vault-misc-150:

I'm at work so my time isn't my own, otherwise I'd help but you might be able to get at least a couple of points off some earlier posts of mine in this thread.  If you haven't posted the list when I get home from work, I'll see what I can do!