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[paula-c]

maybe a mannequin was used at home and those who know of hoax are those who have direct contact with the body or mannequin confused/

[fordtocarr]

...
I get what you are saying, but that would mean MJ's original plan was to be on the scene all the way. Or MJ's plan was never being on scene the whole day, because he already knew their plan and therefore leaked false information.

Well, I think you still didn't quite get it.

MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital, because of the POSSIBILITY that someone MIGHT leak the hoax (which would be a risk whatever his plan was, but especially IF his plan was to go to the hospital--therefore, that was not his plan).

Oh duh... that's of course the most logic explanation... That's what you get when you have too much other stuff on your mind that is EATING UP your brain cells. I am going to grow some new once and think of a scenario.

lolol/

For argument's sake...what if...MJ's 'ORIGINAL' plan included him jetting off on a plane beforehand, therefore not going to the hospital.

The key players for the events of June 25th are prepared for handling, let's say, a dummy.  Because TS said MJ's ORIGINAL plan was to NOT go to the hospital.

What if it was his secret plan though?  And he doesn't tell certain people who MIGHT leak the hoax, like the paramedics or something.

So the paramedics show up expecting MJ to be long gone to the airport and to take a dummy (or corpse..but no, I just can't with that) to the hospital, but instead of a dummy, it's Michael!  Plan proceeds as normal.

Except if anyone did happen to leak anything to say, the "Illuminati", they would already think Michael wasn't going to be there, when he actually was.

Ok, so I'll be quiet about the Live MJ thing for now, since most (not all) have dismissed it.

I was wondering sorta along these lines too.
So, TS says Michael didn't go to ucla alive.
And his ORIGINAL plan was not to go to the hosp because someone could've leaked his plan.
Now, say it WAS leaked, and they did get to Michael.
He went to the hospital, as NOT his original plan,
but  ... just as they've said.  Not alive.
But, in the hospital, they actually resuscitated him.
Now, I know that don't fit with Jermaine's slip up so I don't actually believe this plan either.

[Andrea]

Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either.  I was thinking of you when I said (not all).

Ladies, TS wrote:

That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.  Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.

Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?

I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.

Actually I was wondering the same.

Because of that confusing post about the original plan..I think...

I'll add to what bec said in her post (I might end up repeating stuff too).

1 - We see the body (MJ) sit up in the helicopter.

2 - You can see the body (again, presumably MJ) kick/move his legs after the guy hoists him in the coroner van.  This video is not as good as the one Snoopy posted but that vid is no longer available, oddly enough.  Around the minute mark.

3 - The video of Michael jumping out of the coroner van.  Yes, this was "debunked" (for the masses who already think he's dead) by a German television station that has had connections to Michael in the past.  This video was released on 8-25-09, the same day the autopsy photo was taken, even though the photo date was said to be a "mistake".

4 - Gives Michael hands on direction of his hoax.  TS said that MJ wouldn't make a double take his spot as he wouldn't put someone else in a target position like that.  And yet by believing MJ flew off on an unscheduled private jet, we are led to believe that Michael would put EVERYONE ELSE actively involved in the events of the hoax that day AT RISK??!?  While he's safely tucked away on a plane or at his destination?  I don't think so.

5 - It's a movie.  Agree with bec that MJ stars in his own films.

6 - TS said one of the seven reasons for the hoax was a 'prank'.  What better way to prank the world than play dead in front of everyone's eyes?

In my opinion, the above points along with bec's, are no less strong than the points TS gave to debunk the live MJ theory.

[PureLove]

Bec, thank you for re-posting your post.

We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).

We KNOW paramedics, the doctors and Kai are in on it? How do we know that? The staff left the house before the ambulance left, so Kai and other staff are not in on the hoax except the bodyguards.

strong enough to outweigh the risks in this Live MJ theory. There is risk with every scenario presented, so "risk" alone doesn't debunk anything.

I believe that the only risk of this all was not the threat issue but also the risk of the plan get ruined if MJ was seen alive by anyone who is not in on the hoax. Anyone in the hospital, in the ER might have got into the room and saw that he was alive. He wouldn't risk his master plan destroyed because of him.

Yes, Michael likes to starred in his productions but this is not an ordinary production of him and he is the director of this plan and therefore he doesn't need to be  in the location personally. Giving directions to the people at the location would be enough and would be less risky.

TPTB is not consist of a couple of people. They are strong and smart enough and I do not believe that they would be dismissing to control the first or the last place they expect him to be.

Your points did not convince me to believe in the MJ Live theory but TS' points are really strong and sounds more logical to me. But this is my opinion. I'm wondering what TS will be saying to your points tho. Thank you for sharing them once again bec.

[BeTheChange]

LOL @bec.  I've left a window open a crack in the off chance that this level and/or this whole hoax will end with "and that's a wrap!" Sometimes I think my own brain starts to drift into too much 'fiction-type' scenarios...but then I think 'what if'?  What IF there really was a real danger?  So for my own peace of mind (lol), I need to come up with some sort of scenario that would 'fit' that angle as well.

I really like the Live MJ theory...it suits him best and maybe TS is just trying to throw us off (I haven't lost sight of that possibility).  BUT, given that we are down to the wire and this level is supposed to end tomorrow...and TS, all of a sudden, is handing out silver cutlery on silver trays...I'm giving what he's got to say a fighting chance lol.  He's either playing with us or he's trying to get us to SEE what really happened.  I'm not sure either way...but would like to see where he's going with this.

The problem with the Live MJ theory is that the ONLY piece of 'evidence' we had was the sitting up in the stretcher pics...those have been debunked.  There's no way to know whether or not it's MJ the other times we see the 'body' (helicopter, coroner van, etc).  So all other points are conjecture...what we think MJ would do.  And that may be right, unless there really WAS something serious going on.  We know MJ LOVES being on stage (even though he doesn't like touring lol)...he's said he's most comfortable when performing...BUT, if there was ever a threat or some other serious issue, I'm sure he'd cancel.  That's just being smart.  The tricky part here is trying to figure out IF there was something serious going on and whether or not it was 'smarter' for him to be gone.

Because we don't yet know for sure...I'm running parallel theories lol...hence the 'banging the head' gif  :lol:

@WishingStar...glad you liked the 'animation'....I think a few of us are feeling like that right about now  :lol:  And great point about the power of suggestion...something TS mentioned in the post ADI posted.  It's pretty powerful on its own, but when combined with not wanting to look like the idiot for being the only one who doesn't SEE what everyone else seems to see...it can become extremely powerful.

With L.O.V.E. always.

[bec]

I'm gonna go one further. The "missing" security footage. If there's a dead body laying there, or a life like dummy, and all the events proceeded just as they tell it why no security footage? Where'd it go? It being "missing" indicates there was something on that footage that no one was allowed to see, necessitating it's destruction. Would this footage existing not enhance the illusion of a death hoax? Dramatic footage released of Michael's last minutes attended by Murray in the bed, cut to scene of Paramedics rushing in, cut to scene of stretcher being carried out... wonderful stuff to convince the world AND The Illuminati that MJ was deader then a doornail. Surely at least they would have footage of MJ coming home the night before. But no. Nothing.

As it is, the "missing" footage arouses curiosity, which can quickly turn into suspicion, and not just by hoaxers. It's a rabbit trail that to anyone SUSPECTING that MJ might try to fake his death to escape them (Illuminati) would latch onto and investigate to death before being satisfied of actual death.

But whatever. What is a strong point? Because I think this theory is full of them. Others think TS's Illuminati theory has strong points and I'm off my tree. This whole thing is turning into my opinion against your opinion (collective).

PureLove, you posted while I was finishing this post:

We don't KNOW that the staff left the house before the ambulance did, that's just what we were told.

Does any part of this death hoax sound logical? Frankly, the only thing that sounds logical to me is that MJ hoaxed his death as a giant piece of performance art as a major comeback, because he can, and to show off for his kids. His art is his life so there is no "just" or trivial aspect to what I envision at all.

What is logical? Something with precedent. There is no precedent for this.

[PureLove]

I'll add to what bec said in her post (I might end up repeating stuff too).

1 - We see the body (MJ) sit up in the helicopter.

How do we know that it is MJ in the helicopter? I agree with the moving body but it could be anyone.

3 - The video of Michael jumping out of the coroner van.  Yes, this was "debunked" (for the masses who already think he's dead) by a German television station that has had connections to Michael in the past.  This video was released on 8-25-09, the same day the autopsy photo was taken, even though the photo date was said to be a "mistake".

We again do not know if that is MJ or not. Just assuming. Maybe it was really a game of the German tv channel.

4 - Gives Michael hands on direction of his hoax.  TS said that MJ wouldn't make a double take his spot as he wouldn't put someone else in a target position like that.  And yet by believing MJ flew off on an unscheduled private jet, we are led to believe that Michael would put EVERYONE ELSE actively involved in the events of the hoax that day AT RISK??!?  While he's safely tucked away on a plane or at his destination?  I don't think so.

While everyone was thinking that he was dead, I do not think that he would be risking someone's life at risk to fly with a private jet. Especially with a fake name and a disguise.

5 - It's a movie.  Agree with bec that MJ stars in his own films.

This time he is not the actor of his film but the director of his film. Giving direction to people at the locations would be enough. Why would he need to pop in front of the camera where there was no need to? He is the invisible star and the visible star of the movie is Murray. And this is definitely not only a movie.

6 - TS said one of the seven reasons for the hoax was a 'prank'.  What better way to prank the world than play dead in front of everyone's eyes?

He doesn't need to be in front of people's eyes to make it a prank.

P.S: I'll be going to bed right now and I'll be thinking about these because these are the last things I read and will be thinking of you Andrea.  :shock:  geek/ Scared yet? :lol:

bearhug

[fordtocarr]

I have to say, that IF this is NOT about the illuminati, and it is US/TS that have brought up their involvement, wouldn't "they" be on here or someplace jumping on us about NOT being involved in KILLING Michael Jackson????
If this is a movie or hoax or sting, and NOT about the illuminati and there is SO much about their involvement, isn't this actually accusing them..and a very dangerous THEM???
AND if they ARE involved in this, how could Michael EVER return???  They do not go away!
I just DO NOT think this is about the illuminati.
BUT, who the heck am I????

[Andrea]

@ PureLove,  :shock: Yes I'm scared! :lol:

But to reply to what you said, - "How do we know that it is MJ in the helicopter? I agree with the moving body but it could be anyone." - we don't KNOW it was MJ but if we take TS's word for it that a double wasn't involved, then who else could it be? Would Michael risk someone else's life over his own?

Another thing you said PureLove - "While everyone was thinking that he was dead, I do not think that he would be risking someone's life at risk to fly with a private jet. Especially with a fake name and a disguise." - The people who were involved that day KNOW Michael's not dead.  If there was some nefarious plan to "get Michael" that day, Michael would be risking everyone's lives who were involved in pulling off the hoax, risk of being in the cross fire.  If there were no wicked murder plans that day, the hoax and everyone involved still risks exposure and once again, would Michael do that to people he trusts and are loyal to him?  To anyone?  I just don't see it, despite what we haven't discovered about the man we never knew.

To the rest of what you said, read my comment above what you said, lol.  Have a good night girl.

bearhug

[Andrea]

I have to say, that IF this is NOT about the illuminati, and it is US/TS that have brought up their involvement, wouldn't "they" be on here or someplace jumping on us about NOT being involved in KILLING Michael Jackson????
If this is a movie or hoax or sting, and NOT about the illuminati and there is SO much about their involvement, isn't this actually accusing them..and a very dangerous THEM???
AND if they ARE involved in this, how could Michael EVER return???  They do not go away!
I just DO NOT think this is about the illuminati.
BUT, who the heck am I????

If the Illuminati (I don't trust that word, I'm gonna say TPTB) didn't try to kill Michael that day, they are still not good people.  They still control mostly everything in the world.  How can Michael expose them if no one knows who they are?  How much have so many people learned here about TPTB since Michael faked his death?  I first started learning about them when I was 19, right after 9/11 happened but my knowledge has greatly increased since belonging to this forum.  The lesson may be more important than the active application. 

[Andrea]

Snoopy, I rather like that you arrived on the scene. You're really contributing here, I am glad to have you aboard. Great post. But you forget the third option; dummy/cadaver/Live MJ.

Live MJ solves the problem of storage and disposal (lol). Live MJ can disguise or hide and be ushered out of anywhere in a multitude of ways. He's been doing it his whole life, really. No different on 6/25/09 if he had to find someway to leave undetected by public or paps. Who better then MJ to leave a venue unnoticed?

Live MJ solves the problem of fooling the casual glance. If someone were to catch a glimpse of him on the stretcher; either through the Carrolwood gates or going into the ER at UCLA, it really is MJ on the stretcher so there's no problem. Appearances are kept up. Who's to say at quick glance if he's alive or dead?

Live MJ also solves the basic need for MJ to direct and oversee Day Zero, which is so crucial to the 2+ year long project which was to follow.

Live MJ lets us see him sitting up on the stretcher and sitting up in the helicopter.

Live MJ also completes the story with Van Video and coroner photoshoot in one seamless flow.

Using a Live MJ is the simplest scenario that satisfies all of the hoax needs. Live MJ also allows everyone to say it looked like MJ and it was MJ and they worked on MJ, MJ was laying there, etc. Maybe when they gave him the balloon pump they gave it to him and let him play around with it for awhile (ha). They had a couple of hours to kill.

I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.

I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.

Bec,

I would 100% agree with you....that is until about 20 minutes ago.

Now I'm a little shaky on the "live MJ" scenario.

The Cadaver/Donnor body theory is out the window for me.

I was debating with PureLove about the body transport to the van. In some instances the body appears "flat", so I reviewed the video taken that day and came across some interesting revelations.

I don't want to prejudice your perspective, so take a look and see what it looks like to you.

The video is looped, but the event occurs at :51, 4:40, 5:40 and 8:17.

Look closely inside the van.

I've seen it. I did rewatch it again but I have seen it a thousand times, and I'm probably not kidding. This wasn't missed, the topic of the man lifting the "body" in the coroner's van was tossed around at length in 2009 (no pun intended). Keep watching the tape. He uses both hands and he pics the "body" up with the knot of the sheet. He hefts what appears to be the right amount of weight in making the effort. Watch again, and again, and again. It's  spot on.

I think it's Live MJ. How fun would that be. I have always loved that theory because it's so much incredible fun even though I didn't think it was very realistic (risk), but now that we have seen trial and know that Dr. Cooper is for sure in on the hoax (tells us she worked on a dead body for over 1 hour and called t.o.d. 2:26), I'm totally fine with this theory being The One. It all fits, start to finish, in perfect lateral progression of Day Zero events.

Actually, now that I watch that particular scene again (and again and again and again) it looks like the body shifts itself to help the guy moving his body!  Especially at the 0:53 mark, if you look lower on the sheet, you can SEE someone underneath moving as well, not just the sheet itself.  OMG!!

It's Michael under that sheet, I'm sure of it now.  I always liked the scenario that it was him all the way along but now I'm convinced of it.  Holy cow!!!  This is HUGE for me.

Thank you bec for your insight as it made me watch that part again and see as you do.

Michael was there every step of the way -  Carolwood, ambulance, hospital, helicopter, coroner van - then we lost track of him after he jumped out and disappeared behind the door....although I know we've seen him since.

Bring on the next level!

This was my "eureka!" moment.  Just over 2 weeks ago I saw that video footage.  Now you can't see that video anymore.  How long do you think that particular video has been around for, 2+ years would be a reasonable guess.  Coincidence?

I like the Live MJ best, it seems to fit all the parameters in my eyes.  If it must be debunked, then please explain why, for all of the points suggesting that it was actually Michael that day.

[bec]

That's the point, isn't it Andrea, all the points suggesting that it WAS MJ himself. At face value, this is exactly what happened, you look at each stage of the game and all signs point to Live MJ. Then you add fear and doubt and risk and worry and suddenly you need a 54 page elaborate discussion of "what really happened".

So all the information suggests it is Live MJ and the sole reason this cannot be is conjecture??? Not debunked.

[Andrea]

Holy wow I just got excited!!

[Andrea]

That's the point, isn't it Andrea, all the points suggesting that it WAS MJ himself. At face value, this is exactly what happened, you look at each stage of the game and all signs point to Live MJ. Then you add fear and doubt and risk and worry and suddenly you need a 54 page elaborate discussion of "what really happened".

So all the information suggests it is Live MJ and the sole reason this cannot be is conjecture??? Not debunked.

The lions and tigers and bears oh my! aspect of following the yellow brick road.

[BeTheChange]

This was my "eureka!" moment.  Just over 2 weeks ago I saw that video footage.  Now you can't see that video anymore.  How long do you think that particular video has been around for, 2+ years would be a reasonable guess.  Coincidence?I like the Live MJ best, it seems to fit all the parameters in my eyes.  If it must be debunked, then please explain why, for all of the points suggesting that it was actually Michael that day.

Here is the vid...it's still there just prob not under that account anymore:

With L.O.V.E. always.