TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[MJonmind]

I agree, Bec.
PureLove, I'm not saying corpse at all, but a LIVE person on life support, just brain dead.

MaryK

MJonmind I have a few questions regarding your theory:

How had the hospice patient been brought to the house and when?
Was he still on life support IN the house and someone switched it off? If so: where did the life support equipment go before the paramedics arrived?

I mentioned possibly the extra unfamiliar security guards seen on the 24^th by fans. I think he would have been on life support until the exact time period when Murray said he went to the bathroom.  Then Murray switched off the life support, unhooked everything, removed all that equipment leaving only the simple propofol IV pole etc. needed for the hoax scenario. That's when Murray said he saw that "MJ" wasn't breathing.  There was plenty of time for the hoax life support stuff to be snuck out before the house was cordoned off by LAPD.
I think all this is helped by the fact that this medic person claims ALL is authentic on the medical side of things:

Wishingstar

I found this site just last night.  I am not sure if it's from our Lady Medic that posted here...but there is some really good stuff as far as explanations of what is what...perhaps something will stand out to you:

http://lady-medic.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html

Blessings

PS> here is some information I posted a long time ago about the paramedic's report too....it's not filled out correctly per the LAFD handbook:

http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19392.msg335730#msg335730

Was it Souza or Snoopy71 talking about TS giving out disinformation about MJ to the airport?
Maybe TS is using this site to put out false information for the Illuminati who he knows are reading here as guests. Just like Lou said MJ used a dummy in an ambulance as a decoy to distract paps, just so the Illuminati maybe also watched Jermaine and his slipup, and thought MJ skipped town, allowing him to remain here with his kids. That lone airplane might have been a decoy.
I remember them saying that right after the kids moved to Encino, that someone was driving past the house and said it was being guarded like Fort Knox.  That made me think MJ was there. What about the time they were coming out of their marshal arts class and all the hiding someone with jackets?

[bec]

@Andrea, I'm still in on Live MJ. It's not debunked in the slightest. I think the majority are sidetracked by the fiction aspect.

If we REALLY were supposed to figure this all out as a team with no outside influence to prevent entrapment, it wouldn't be quite so obscure. He has ways of making things *crystal* clear to us and only us... yet as it is... 56 pages later we still haven't any clue. So this is either doomed to fail that entrapment prevention requirement or... or this is the ARG aspect. This is our story.

The stick figure should be my signature, lol.  geek/

The stick figure should be our new forum banner.

[Andrea]

Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either.  I was thinking of you when I said (not all).

[bec]

Just showing support, my friend.

[GINAFELICIA]

I agree, Bec.
PureLove, I'm not saying corpse at all, but a LIVE person on life support, just brain dead.

MaryK

MJonmind I have a few questions regarding your theory:

How had the hospice patient been brought to the house and when?
Was he still on life support IN the house and someone switched it off? If so: where did the life support equipment go before the paramedics arrived?

I mentioned possibly the extra unfamiliar security guards seen on the 24^th by fans. I think he would have been on life support until the exact time period when Murray said he went to the bathroom.  Then Murray switched off the life support, unhooked everything, removed all that equipment leaving only the simple propofol IV pole etc. needed for the hoax scenario. That's when Murray said he saw that "MJ" wasn't breathing.  There was plenty of time for the hoax life support stuff to be snuck out before the house was cordoned off by LAPD.
I think all this is helped by the fact that this medic person claims ALL is authentic on the medical side of things:

Wishingstar

I found this site just last night.  I am not sure if it's from our Lady Medic that posted here...but there is some really good stuff as far as explanations of what is what...perhaps something will stand out to you:

http://lady-medic.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html

Blessings

PS> here is some information I posted a long time ago about the paramedic's report too....it's not filled out correctly per the LAFD handbook:

http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19392.msg335730#msg335730

Was it Souza or Snoopy71 talking about TS giving out disinformation about MJ to the airport?
Maybe TS is using this site to put out false information for the Illuminati who he knows are reading here as guests. Just like Lou said MJ used a dummy in an ambulance as a decoy to distract paps, just so the Illuminati maybe also watched Jermaine and his slipup, and thought MJ skipped town, allowing him to remain here with his kids. That lone airplane might have been a decoy.
I remember them saying that right after the kids moved to Encino, that someone was driving past the house and said it was being guarded like Fort Knox.  That made me think MJ was there. What about the time they were coming out of their marshal arts class and all the hiding someone with jackets?

suspicious// suspicious// suspicious//

You know I'm so tired of not being able to trust anyone.
That scenario you describe above crossed my mind a few times in the last couple of days.If someone tried to kill MJ, wouldn't they be suspicious now that his death is a hoax? Wouldn't they "investigate", just like we think we do here? Wouldn't they try to find him and kill him now??
crash/ crash/ crash/

[Adi]

This is from TS in Level 3 (TIAI April 11) and I thought it was a good help to read again in light of what we are trying to figure out now: what went in the ambulance.

http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=18688.msg325716#msg325716

http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=475#p325011

Good eye!   <!-- s:lol: -->:lol:<!-- s:lol: -->

Although some have said that this thread is just going in circles, and nothing accomplished, yet there has been some definite progress.  There have been strong arguments presented both for and against the corpse theory (with neither side fully convincing the other).  But this can be a good thing; we will get a lot more information during the hearings, and some may find it easier to keep the faith with the corpse theory.

On the other hand, I agree with bec and others, that the corpse theory is the least desirable—and would certainly be avoided if there was any other feasible way.  Some are very strongly opposed to this idea, while others are not; and although the emotional argument holds a lot of weight on this forum (at least with some), it probably would not hold much if any weight in a court of law—which is the type of evidence we are looking for.

And yes, I did say the fewer the better, not the fewest the best; nevertheless, for the sake of the challenge if nothing else, let's examine this question from the fewest possible concept (and this is NOT the actual case, but for the purpose of making the point).

What if MJ actually died morning of 6-25-09: how many would need to be "in on it"?  NONE!  Why?  Because it would not be a hoax, and there would be no hoax for anyone to be "in on".  Then what if someone else actually died morning of 6-25-09, such as a hospice patient on life support: how many would need to be "in on it"?  None, EXCEPT the following: those at the house who knew about the hospice patient there (could be none other than MJ and Murray), and one or at most a few involved in the autopsy.

But in that case, wouldn't people realize that it was not MJ?  Scientific analysis (such as dental records) would only be done at the coroner; so this is why at least one there would need to be in.  As far as visual recognition by others (paramedics, hospital staff, etc): this might not be as big of a problem as you would think.  There are several things that would tend to distract people's attention from the recognition factor: the power of suggestion (others saying that it is MJ), reports of baldness and wigs, and recent plastic surgery, and not very many recent pictures in the news, and the intensity of an emergency situation with a high profile VIP, and other distractions such as the fire alarm, etc (distractions created by the few who are in on it).

We do know that This Scenario at least could have happened with the paramedics, since they reported not recognizing MJ.  And if it could happen with the paramedics, then why not at the hospital also?  In reality, we know that more are in on it than just Murray and the coroner; nevertheless, this should help to clarify which of the options would require the least number of people to be in on it.  Any of the other options (MJ himself, an MJ living double, a dummy, or nothing) would require that ALL of the paramedics be in on it, as well as several at the hospital.

So again, if anyone can debunk the corpse theory, please do.  But not with emotional reactions please, only documented evidence.  And there were a couple of good comments on the life support patient idea {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=175#p322797; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p323766}.

See also a similar but slightly different theory {http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=375#p324064; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=400#p324431; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18688&start=550#p325518}.

[GINAFELICIA]

@Adi thank you for posting this from above. Reading it again I think TS is an eccentric person who has all the time in the world at his disposal  smiley_spider.
Because this post from above SEEMS to support the corpse theory....yet TS said he never supported ANY of the theories.
Yet I can't wait for him/her to come and post again  WTF??

[PureLove]

PureLove, I'm not saying corpse at all, but a LIVE person on life support, just brain dead.

Ahhh, I'm sorry hun. It's my mistake. Got you. And yeah, that is possible too. But if they used a person on a life support, how did they arrange the date perfectly and pull out the plug on the 25th? But maybe that person was homeless and they got all the permission etc. That would be a long procedure imo and I think they used a corpse no matter what his face looked like. Maybe they used a wig and a little make-up or so. That would be easier and still could be enough to deceive the ones who were working on him.

[2good2btrue]

Pictures are louder than words........

[AnaMarcia]

If it is to consider what the family says, so .... which means  Jermaine say goodbye to Michael (who was looking anorexic and much lower than in May) and kissed her forehead, saying: Go in peace, brother!
What about Latoya saying he was all pierced with needles?

Who is he, TS? The doll? A double? A corpse? Michael himself? Or just an illusion or lie of Latoya and Jermaine?  /pull hair/

BTW, the theory of look-alike has not been fully unmasked, for me. If it's for security reasons .... there were 10 security guards around that ambulance!

[PureLove]

Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either.  I was thinking of you when I said (not all).

Ladies, TS wrote:

That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.  Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.

Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?

I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.

[Adi]

Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either.  I was thinking of you when I said (not all).

Ladies, TS wrote:

That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.  Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.

Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?

I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.

Actually I was wondering the same.

[GINAFELICIA]

Yes bec, I'm not convinced by the debunking of the live MJ either.  I was thinking of you when I said (not all).

Ladies, TS wrote:

That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.  Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.

Also, where are two or three strong points that MJ did go to the hospital?

I also would love to hear your strong points that MJ went to UCLA. I'm trying to understand why you are not eliminating this theory, and why you are not convinced with the 5 strong points TS wrote about MJ not going to UCLA.

Actually I was wondering the same.

Because of that confusing post about the original plan..I think...

[bec]

I gave 4 good points 25 pages ago that haven't been answered to, I don't think. I'll go dig that post up, hang on.

Some have claimed that MJ would or would not do things a certain way, merely because it does or does not fit his habits or personality.  For example, some say he would love to be in the middle of the action; and he is a prankster, therefore that fits with him riding to UCLA, sitting up in the stretcher, riding the helicopter, hopping out of the van, etc.

Although the above is correct in a general sense, it is not correct in relation to this hoax.  Please notice the following, from TII (also in the puzzle above): "LIKE YOU'VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE"!  This alone should tell us that the TII production is DIFFERENT from what we would normally expect out of MJ.  The hoax is the biggest and most important production of his life; and he would not risk having it all ruined, merely so that he could have some fun riding around town in an ambulance, helicopter, and van.

Far more important than the fun, is the SUCCESS of the project.  If the first attempt failed, there would not be another opportunity ever again.  The timing and numerology would never be as good again; and worse than that, the public would be expecting it the second time—so everyone would question his "death" on a second attempt.  And speaking of success, notice this statement about The Illusionist: "... the masterful illusion that has been so SUCCESSFULLY planned & implemented." {http://tinyurl.com/cc5bzx6}.  So let's be looking for a coherent theory, where SUCCESS is of utmost importance.

To make it as easy as possible, I'm going to go through a process of elimination here in 7b.  I am going to start by showing that MJ did not go to the hospital in the ambulance (in fact, I have already started this process, in those last two paragraphs above); then I will go through other possibilities, one at a time (living double, nobody, dummy, corpse).  And for each step in the process, I will be using at least two or three different strong points—which is a very good principle to use in all cases, not just this hoax investigation.

Live MJ:
Pros:
Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body"
Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening

There are certain key people, already collectively accepted to be in on it (bodyguards, Paramedics, 2 docs at UCLA, coroner) that would ensure MJ's safe passage that day.

Cons:
Risk of exposure if anyone unauthorized treats the body as a real cardiac arrest patient
Risk of exposure if the "corpse" is seen moving

I await your attempts at process of elimination of the Live MJ theory and I'm hoping you address some of the points I brought up, TS, because I did not include "Because it's fun" as a Pro in support of the theory. I have thrown that out in the past, in conversation, but when it comes to the nitty gritty reality of it, I set it aside... because you have to.

So, "fun" part thrown out the window, what have you addressed? It couldn't be live MJ in the ambulance because TII was billed as "different" then what we would expect from MJ? Well clearly, nearly his entire fan base would call a hoax definitely DIFFERENT then the MJ they know, as proven by their vast numbers supporting the death scenario... so MJ is already behaving DIFFERENTLY... and I do not accept that it is logical that  the byline DISCOVER THE MAN YOU NEVER KNEW was addressed only to hoaxers, especially considering the line "FOR THE FANS..." heralded the opening of the movie.

Success of the project trumps fun, agreed, which is why I didn't list FUN as a Pro in support of the Live MJ theory.

Again, change only what you need to change. MJ in that ambulance from Carrolwood--->UCLA abides by this investigation method in it's purest form. The only thing that needs to be changed is the DEAD part. Everything else stays the same.

We know Bodyguards are in on it. We know Paramedics are in on it. We know Cooper/Nyugen are in on it. I agree with Gina that Kai must be in on it because the risk of her breaking character (running upstairs) seeing something (Security NOT ALLOWED in the house) is far too great to leave her out (risk outweighs possible benefit).

Considering we are only dealing with the scene at the house and traveling to UCLA, and being unloaded just outside the door, and subsequently ushered through to the private ER wing; what witnesses are we concerned with seeing Live MJ move/breathe/cough necessitating something being used that would play dead better then MJ himself?

Those are brief potential views... extremely brief and extremely limited opportunities.

-Through a crack in the fence, as Ben's video illustrates---VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ANYTHING CLEARLY, you're not going to be able to stop and stare hard enough to see if the "patient"s chest is rising and falling (breathing). In order to see that you would have to have an uninterrupted view of the rib cage area for at least 4 full seconds (15-20 breaths/minute=average respiration rate).
-Through the ambulance window-- Again, unlikely from the start, just because it would be difficult for anyone to get past large security man and Ben's team to sneak a peak. Even if they did, again, you have the 4 second need to witness respiration.
-While being unloaded at UCLA-- We see the ambulance having backed almost directly up to the doorway of the ER, allowing Paramedics quick and direct access to getting inside. Anyone who might get  a view of the stretcher here, again, isn't going to be able to see past security and paramedics for 4 uninterrupted seconds to see MJ breathing.
-While being rushed through the ER en-route to the private wing MJ's entourage reportedly was ushered into. Again, with bodyguards and paramedics surrounding the stretcher, no one unauthorized is going to get a 4 second uninterrupted view of MJ's rib cage to determine if he is breathing or not.

I am hard pressed to find a situation from loading at Carrolwood to unloading at UCLA ("who or what went to UCLA that day") where anyone not in on the hoax would get an uninterrupted 4 second view of the "body" and thus making "possibly seeing Live MJ breathe" a major concern and therefore RISK to this theory.

Again, just focus on this one aspect: Carrolwood--->UCLA for purposes of my post and support or finding holes in the Live MJ theory. Helicopter and Coroner van are not directly related as a switch to  a corpse or dummy could be done @UCLA, and is therefore irrelevant to this post.

So, TS, I am having trouble finding the risk of this theory and consider the benefits I listed:

Allows witnesses to recall accurate detail of events
Keeps up appearances in case of unauthorized people seeing "the body" (small glimpses <4 seconds, as explained above)
Allows MJ to personally direct all the live action as it's happening

strong enough to outweigh the risks in this Live MJ theory. There is risk with every scenario presented, so "risk" alone doesn't debunk anything.

[bec]

And Andrea threw out another good, strong point in rebuttal of TS's 'Illuminati was after MJ' theory by pointing out this gives MJ an additional reason to be there himself as it was the last place TPTB would expect him to be.

Another strong point, MJ always starred in his own productions.

The movie theory really does run parallel to this Illuminati-escape theory and to me, it explains this aspect that TS talks about.

I guess I'm not convinced of the life and death aspect of a hoax that puts toys in the court room, releases videos of MJ jumping out of coroner van, has Poppa Joe selling perfume, the kids Twittering zombie videos, and LaToya Facebooking 52 times a day.

Ps. I've also never had it addressed as to why this FBI sting/vague and cryptic references to "Bad Guys" that TS always talks about seems to exactly mirror the Moonwalker film-->Smooth Criminal, which contains the lyrics that coincidentally SOUND JUST LIKE "Dr. Murray rescessitation..."