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[chappie]

here is a thought that is completely insane.....................but what the heck !!!!!!!!!!!!!! could the person trying to kill michael have been in the house...and was murdered......................no no now i see i am insane lol...................well never mind.......cant say we have not tried all ideas ha ha xxxx

Well nothing suprises me anymore..... /scream/
But with a little help of a bottle propofol anything is possible....:)..

[MJonmind]

What is this body, had a prosthetic mask on....I mean one which really looks real ???..

The only problem that I have with the theory that someone else died in place of MJ, is getting someone to do it..
Who would die for him??  I mean is it even a possibility that he would even accept such an offer from someone...??? I don't think that's an option....Someone died, that looked like an asian man,
who resembled MJ....

So the ambulance transported the hospice patient earlier that day through a back entrance to Carolwood..???
/pull hair/ /pull hair/ /scream/ /scream/ /scream/

I got it..........It was a clone made of him....like "Frankenstein"  lol    /white flag/ /white flag/

Could this substitute have been someone on life support, a vegetable, with "no brain".  If the family gives consent to UCLA for medical purposes, or they sign saying which day they want life support stopped--June 25, 2009.  The propofol was injected along with Lorazapam, he stopped breathing. Ambulance was called and on and on right up to pronou_ced dead.  If Sharon has already said the patient didn't look like MJ, then he doesn't have to. Sounds like nobdy wants to listen to her complaints--calling her crazy.  Group think--everyone finally just follows orders because they don't want to be called an idiot or delusional.

Vegetable takes on new meaning!
And MJ certainly HAS been "starting something"! :lol:

[1st Verse]
I Took My Baby To The Doctor
With A Fever, But Nothing He Found
By The Time This Hit The Street
They Said She Had A Breakdown
Someone's Always Tryin' To Start My Baby Cryin'
Talkin', Squealin', Lyin'
Sayin' You Just Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'

I Said You Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Startin' Somethin'
I Said You Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
You Got To Be Startin' Somethin'
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck In The Middle (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Pain Is Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
It's Too High To Get Over (Yeah, Yeah)
Too Low To Get Under (Yeah, Yeah)
You're Stuck In The Middle (Yeah, Yeah)
And The Pain Is Thunder (Yeah, Yeah)
You're A Vegetable, You're A Vegetable
Still They Hate You, You're A Vegetable
You're Just A Buffet, You're A Vegetable
They Eat Off Of You, You're A Vegetable

[wishingstar]

Can I just add again, the paramedics report.....and what is really wrong with it...

According to the report, we have a patient dying of cancer with chest pains.....and the case is not considered an emergency.  The patient had normal pulse rate, and oxygen levels, but flatlined shortly after the paramedics attended to him...

Why did we have an extra EMS 9 car on scene, only to be sent away later??  If it was an emergency at Carolwood, then they would have stayed...

Carolwood has another two entrances, which an ambulance could have easily snuck in through while no-one was looking......We do not have any photos at all of an ambulance arriving....even though 3 fans were outside and so was Chris Weiss....Strange ???

We have real or fake documentation proving the patient was still breathing until it got to UCLA....

these are the documents, once again.

hey 2good......
I found this site just last night.  I am not sure if it's from our Lady Medic that posted here...but there is some really good stuff as far as explanations of what is what...perhaps something will stand out to you:

http://lady-medic.blogspot.com/2010_06_01_archive.html

Blessings

PS> here is some information I posted a long time ago about the paramedic's report too....it's not filled out correctly per the LAFD handbook:

http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=19392.msg335730#msg335730

[BeTheChange]

Wow...the things you miss when you finally get some sleep!

@WishingStar...good reminder of the incorrectly filled out paramedic report.  If I remember correctly, it was Senneff that filled it out?  Could that 'hint' towards him being in on it?

I had thought that Blount WAS in on it because he was the one actually working the patient...but it looks like some of TS' recent posts change some things around, at least in my brain.  By my count, even without TS' filling in ALL the blanks (yet) in debunking the possibilities...we can eliminate the following: 1) Live MJ, 2) living double, 3) nothing, and 4) dummy.  All we're left with is a real corpse  errrr...my least favorable scenario.  Perhaps there are at least 3 things that point to ALL the paramedics being in on it, although I can't seem to come up with 3...but if they were NOT in on it, then the dummy theory and the 'nothing' theory fly out the window....so, that would mean someone died that day  :cry:

There's no way that MJ would agree to have someone killed just so he has a body for his hoax lol...and I highly doubt that MJ would agree to have a healthy male give up his life for his hoax, even if all they wanted was their family taken care of after their 'sacrifice'.  So, that leads me to believe it was someone who was terminally ill (hospice patient theory) and who agreed, or his family agreed, to have his 'body' used in the hoax.  Thinking back to some of TS' posts, he DID kinda hint towards this possibility and I recall some members not 'liking' the theory because of ethical reasons.  Knowing what we do know about MJ and IF this is what actually took place, I'm just about positive that he wasn't jumping for joy at the 'opportunity' and that all ethical dilemmas were sorted out beforehand.

Unless, as has been discussed many times in the past, it was simply a donated 'body' that had been kept frozen (the heated room might support that)...but I remember there being a few things 'wrong' with this theory (who the heck knows at this point  :?).

Alright...where do we go from here?  November 29 is fast approaching and we haven't wrapped up 'b' in any 'solid-type' fashion and we still have 'c' to get through  smiley_spider.  Time's a ticking TS...perhaps your presence today and tonight will help us reach the destination before the whistle blows.

With L.O.V.E. always.

[AnaMarcia]

It seems that the correct choice will be a corpse?

Well, if the FBI is in, everything can be ...

There is only one question ... If Michael's life was in danger so he would have left their children?

If people who wanted to kill him  discovered their plans, which is easy if they enter this forum, could not they threaten his children and his family, making Michael return sooner than expected?

[simalves]

This is the one photo that shows the stretcher entering UCLA emergency....not that clear, but might help us decide what went to UCLA that day...The body does look alot bigger than MJ's....
God bless

And by the way, all of this would have been caught on security camera above the emergency doors..

I wonder whether the FBI made UCLA hand over the video so that it could not be sold to the media !!!!  Or, should we be wondering why it has not been shown by now.

Well, looks like the "nothing went to UCLA" can be thrown in the trash bin. There is clearly something/someone on the stretcher.

Yes, that is one strong point against the nothing theory.  And we also have the testimony of Sharon Sidney, so that is two strong points.

A third strong point is the nothing theory would require ALL of the paramedics in on the hoax (which nobody has offered even ONE strong point, that I know of, much less two or three).  And it would also require ALL of the UCLA staff who worked the situation, to be in on it.  Again, why have so many in on it?

Some have said that the area was restricted, so they could control who came into the room.  While that is true, regarding the public and certain hospital staff; it is hard to know in advance every staff person who might be there that day, with authority to enter a restricted area (or at least thinks that they have authority, and decides to go in and "help out").  Randy said that there was a "... flurry of activity going on behind this curtain in the E -- um, emergency room ..." {33:49, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU}.

But since this whole thing asks us to look at the movie "The Illusionist" then was it just a graphic image that went to the hospital. The thing about TI(The Illusionist) or TII (This is Illusion) is that the magician was actually not present that day of his show, it was just a projection of him. So did the projection move from the bed to the floor, to the bed, and Murray could not do CPR because there was nothing to do CPR on. But then a few people would have to be in on it. The projection could also give the wrong body size at some moments.

So was wondering about TII - I have often thought that the doubles people talk about are actually Michael projections that sometimes get skewed and so the face/body is bigger/smaller. Remember that one pic of him looking at himself on stage? And on the days he was present he made sure that people knew he was around, by actually hugging each and every one of the dancers.

So Timor Steffens commenting that they could never hear Michael approach them, he just appeared at times but then later he started smelling Michael before he could have seen him, could easily be achieved by just spraying the area before the illusion appeared. That would have been perfect practice for whatever Michael planned.

[simalves]

It seems that the correct choice will be a corpse?

Well, if the FBI is in, everything can be ...

There is only one question ... If Michael's life was in danger so he would have left their children?

If people who wanted to kill him  discovered their plans, which is easy if they enter this forum, could not they threaten his children and his family, making Michael return sooner than expected?

Anna at times I did wonder if this hoax discussion is to keep the Illuminati occupied, as in trying to find him and so the children are safe and can live their normal lives. It would be the perfect sacrifice, but it would also be difficult for Michael to return.

[simalves]

You could also have a dummy made out of panels that when turned on look like Michael, like lightman, remember the abnormalities in the autopsy pic with bands of different colours. I think with all the technology available Michael could have used the most outlandish things to achieve whatever he wanted to. The 3D projections available nowadays are mindblowing.

[fordtocarr]

:P

Wow...the things you miss when you finally get some sleep!p

@WishingStar...good reminder of the incorrectly filled out paramedic report.  If I remember correctly, it was Senneff that filled it out?  Could that 'hint' towards him being in on it?

I had thought that Blount WAS in on it because he was the one actually working the patient...but it looks like some of TS' recent posts change some things around, at least in my brain.  By my count, even without TS' filling in ALL the blanks (yet) in debunking the possibilities...we can eliminate the following: 1) Live MJ, 2) living double, 3) nothing, and 4) dummy.

I just cannot believe that Michael used a corpse...unless it was NOT in his hands and the FBI ushered Michael out of the scene whenever, and took over and THEY used a corpse...  but, I am wondering as it seems so much of this speculating is simply a play on words, if it wasn't a LIVING DOUBLE, but one that was dead....as, they killed the double.  There seems to be SOMETHING OR SOMEONE that went to the hospital, so to offer proof is just not feasible as we were not there, and we have not seem WHAT when in there.  But, by eliminating the options, we can just offer a guess.  That is what I'm doing, as there are not much left we KNOW of to try to make the piece fit.  By saying this it does mean that there was a crime and not just a movie though.  And that much more involvement by authorities was used.  Also, I'd say that as none of that element has been brought to view or trials, that Michael would still have to remain hidden.  :(
I'm seriously racking my brain to figure WHAT could've gone in there if it was nothing, or Michael, or a dummy, or a LIVING double, because we KNOW it wasn't a dead Michael.

All we're left with is a real corpse  errrr...my least favorable scenario.  Perhaps there are at least 3 things that point to ALL the paramedics being in on it, although I can't seem to come up with 3...but if they were NOT in on it, then the dummy theory and the 'nothing' theory fly out the window....so, that would mean someone died that day  :cry:

There's no way that MJ would agree to have someone killed just so he has a body for his hoax lol...and I highly doubt that MJ would agree to have a healthy male give up his life for his hoax, even if all they wanted was their family taken care of after their 'sacrifice'.  So, that leads me to believe it was someone who was terminally ill (hospice patient theory) and who agreed, or his family agreed, to have his 'body' used in the hoax.  Thinking back to some of TS' posts, he DID kinda hint towards this possibility and I recall some members not 'liking' the theory because of ethical reasons.  Knowing what we do know about MJ and IF this is what actually took place, I'm just about positive that he wasn't jumping for joy at the 'opportunity' and that all ethical dilemmas were sorted out beforehand.

Unless, as has been discussed many times in the past, it was simply a donated 'body' that had been kept frozen (the heated room might support that)...but I remember there being a few things 'wrong' with this theory (who the heck knows at this point  :?).

Alright...where do we go from here?  November 29 is fast approaching and we haven't wrapped up 'b' in any 'solid-type' fashion and we still have 'c' to get through  smiley_spider.  Time's a ticking TS...perhaps your presence today and tonight will help us reach the destination before the whistle blows.

With L.O.V.E. always.

[paula-c]

Jermaine said: "He was very, very healthy but Michael was not with us, WAY BEFORE he arrived to the airport. ... I mean way before he arrived to the hospital. ... they were always after him, and he felt that his life was going to be taken." {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5OOwLcE_6Q}.

The non-believers think that this was just a random mistake (not a clue, not an accidental slip).  However, notice that shortly before saying "airport", he paused a bit; so there was ample time for him to collect his thoughts, and get the wording right.

Furthermore, if it really was just a mistake, how many words are there in the dictionary?  What are the odds that a random mistake would produce the word "airport"?  And what are the odds that the mistake happened precisely where the word "hospital" was supposed to be, and not during any one of the many other words during his interview?

I heard one non-believer try to explain it, by saying that Jermaine had recently arrived by plane; therefore, he had the "airport" on his mind when he was speaking.  I think we can buy that excuse, as soon as we find examples of people in interviews accidentally using the word "restroom"—merely because they had used the restroom, shortly before their interview started.

So if the word "airport" from Jermaine was not a random mistake: it was either an accidental slip-up, or an intentional clue.  Either way, it would be the truth.  You don't accidentally let a lie slip out, no, when you accidentally spill the beans—it is the truth.  And if it was an intentional clue, then I think we should also accept it as truth (unless we have two or three very strong reasons which show that it is not the truth).  If Jermaine was merely trying to indicate the hoax, but not trying to indicate that MJ went to the airport: then he could've easily said many other things, such as: "... way before he got out of the van, I mean way before he was taken out of the ambulance."

If we can't trust the hoax clues from the family, then we really don't have much left.  Yes, we would still have plenty of evidence that MJ himself planned and knew the exact day in advance; but the most reliable source of evidence that he succeeded in his plan, is the family.  And if we can't trust the "airport" clue from Jermaine, then how can we trust the "Illusionist" clue from La Toya—or any other hoax clues from the family?  We should either join the non-believers (and dismiss the hoax clues from the family, they are ALL merely coincidence, etc), or else we should accept that the family is leading us to the truth.

When Jermaine said "way before", this indicates that MJ left for the airport long before the ambulance went to the hospital.  And for those who have been following the hoax from the beginning: you know that almost from the very first day, it was reported that MJ flew out of LAX on a private jet.  So this "airport" belief did not get started from Jermaine's statement; instead, Jermaine VERIFIED the truthfulness of MJ flying out of LAX.

So now I have given two strong points for MJ not going to the hospital.  #1 It would be an unnecessary risk of MJ being bumped off, when the world thinks he's already dead (even if this was a low risk, it was still a risk—and an unnecessary risk, at that).  #2 Jermaine's "airport" clue, plus the very early hoax reports, point to MJ going to the airport instead of the hospital.  And I still have three more strong points on this, yet to come (total of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital).

Nobody had yet i agreed to that Michael go to the hospital. And what TS says is true, then we must stop listening to what they say Jermaine and La Toya, stop looking at the accounts of twitter in Paris and see if the spelling mistakes are like those of Front, but in general do not look any account of Twitter of the family and begin thinking as a no believer.

[Sarahli]

In the article TS posted about Sharon Sydney, we can maybe have a hint about Blount being in the know or not. Not sure how to interpret it actually.

She tells of how, at the hospital, she spoke with paramedic Blount, and how they both agreed that the person that was wheeled into the hospital was not Michael Jackson.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html

So Blount agreed with her that it wasn't Michael Jackson at the hospital, but we know he testified the contrary during the trial.
Why?? Why would he tell her that it wasn't Michael??? suspicious//

I do not think that the paramedics who worked on the "body" can be fooled by a corpse. They are real professionals and would notice that quite quickly in my opinion.

[Grace]

"A liar will not be believed, even when he speaks the truth."

This may be or become an issue once in a while ...

[Sarahli]

"A liar will not be believed, even when he speaks the truth."

This may be or become an issue once in a while ...

Yes probably!!  lolol/

When I think more about it and if we consider the court to be a kangaroo court I will say that Blount told da troot to Sharon Sydney and lied during the trial!  geek/

About the Illuminati they could have also seen this "emergency" as an opportunity to make sure that Michael would not get away from it, as he was seen as a threat to them. So even if they didn't figure out about the plan, another possible risk is that they can act on the moment. So it's safer again for Michael to not be at UCLA.

[fordtocarr]

[/size][/size]

Can anyone come up with the longest time that UCLA has worked a flat-lined patient, before calling the death?

Also might check other hospitals, for comparison.

From the way you have formed your question, I'm lead to wonder a few things, especially since you are now talking about all the various things that could've gone into ucla.
I am wondering if perhaps, this all was really done.  If there Michael was really "dead" when he went to ucla, thus none of the other options.  BUT, as you mention flatlining for a long time, say that is all these efforts, Michael was brought back...and taken into hiding..or another hospital for protection.  Who knows what his health would've been after all that.
Just a thought....

[bec]

TS says Blout was not driving?

If Blout was not driving then he must be in on the hoax because otherwise would he not pipe up and say the pic is fake? Those are clearly 2 white guys in the back.