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use_your_illusion

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Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 01:29:24 AM
I think that using a dummy over a corpse would be sufficient enough, because the only medical persons who would operate on the 'patient' is the medics and the UCLA doctors (who are presumably in on it)...so why would there need to be a corpse instead, who is intended to fool?

Also using a corpse is too much harder to control, you have to actually get the corpse from somewhere and that would allow for more participants in the hoax and you have to get the corpse in the house without anyone noticing and keep it 'fresh' I guess, don't know the right word to use, so it seems to risky...and TS said something like SUCCESS is the key, which could mean, the most successful is the least riskiest...

...then you also have a corpse (if it is supposed to be seen by others who are not in the hoax) not looking like MJ...and when Blunt said he recognized MJ straight away, then it doesn't make to have a corpse because what are the chances that the corpse will look like MJ?...so it seems more fitting for there to be a dummy who looks like MJ (which would presumably fit with what Blunt said).
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curls

Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 01:49:50 AM
Nice post Grace!

(Random comment - the fire pic was supposedly in MJ's private room, not the 'death' room, if that helps anyone with their 'keeping-a-corpse-warm' theory!)

Sorry if I appear to be flogging a dead horse, so to speak, but does anyone else remember hearing someone say they covered MJ's face for privacy during transportation? I know I'm not making that up! From my memory it could have been one of the paramedics or maybe Murray who said it.

If whatever was on the stretcher was covered, no unwanted prying eyes would see anything they shouldn't - remember we're only talking Carolwood > UCLA at the moment. Logical conclusion for me is still that NOTHING was on the stretcher but that pile of ''body shaped' sheets and pillows people were laughing at a few hours ago!

Furthermore, if an event was to occur on the journey, like an accident or break-down, (which is a scenario that may well have been factored in at the planning stage) and the contents of the ambulance were revealed, 'nothing', aka a pile of sheets, is far more easily explained than a dummy, or a corpse you're trying to pretend is Michael Jackson!
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mjj4ever777

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Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 02:13:13 AM
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Anybody having the EXIF data of the "fire in fireplace" room heating picture?
Was it the same room at all?
When was it taken? In advance or at the exact time the CPR was being performed (and who would have a camera at hand at such a moment ...) or after everybody had left the house? When family was moving stuff out?

We have learned that a picture is NO proof of anything, haven't we?
We have learned that a statement of no matter who is NO proof of anything, haven't we?

The whole hoax has been a structured publishing series of sessions that made up a movie in our mind.
These sequences in our mind make it so difficult to put ourselves into a movie production scenario.
Actors only know the script but don't know what the movie will look like because they shoot sequences in production-conform timing, not in movie-conform timing. It doesn't matter how a movie is being shot as long as the director has a plan to put the pieces together afterwards.

We did not even get a script beforehand despite our important role in this play.
That's why everything is so confusing and so hard to debunk.

As to all pictures, videos, interviews, contradicting witness testimonies and each and every paper in tabloids or overheads presented in the trial: there has been a line of garbage bins on June 25, 2009 and ever since we were given additional garbage bins. I have not counted them, but there were many.

I do not consider any of those presented materials or statement as valid, truthful or giving reality in any glimpse.
I have thrown everything that got life as "evidence" into a garbage bin that has become quite full now and is about to go to the dump. Most of what was presented was a means to make it part of the illusionary building and not to give the truth. Prop on the stage that was broadened to the world.

If we take away the veil of all that has been poured over us since 2+ years, there is little that remains and it is this:
Michael disappeared (must not have been on the 25th even).
Carolwood house was used as a stage.
An ambulance was called and drove away to UCLA.
A circus broke loose where some prepared material and distribution channels were used to induce an avalanche of imagination, speculation and illusion. Ever since, Michael has bought time to do what he intended.

I cannot take the picture of the fireplace serious as evidence since there is no proof it was showing the right room at the right time.

Whether another one died that day, a corpse or a dummy was in the house, who or what was put on the stretcher before leaving to UCLA, who or what arrived there, who or what was being treated or not treated there, who or what left with the heli, who or what arrived at the Coroner and who or what left the Coroner - all of this depends on the motivations, overall goal and objectives of the play. These we do not know as we are not MJ nor do we know whether there was a sting or not against whom. Obviously we are not only speculating but also phantasizing, at least this was mentioned.

So in order to not speculate or phantasize, I am going to call the garbage collection service now.
Btw. Michael knew a sober approach would happen sooner or later.
Or else he would have had a hole in his plan.

Still I believe that we did a great job so far, taking into consideration what we had to deal with. Proud of the family here.
It's the journey not the target.

 /bravo/ Grace!

Blessings LOVE and LIGHT!
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Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 03:42:52 AM
Regarding the fireplace:

This was in Michael's own room I believe? Murry said in the documentary that Michael did go off into his own room that night/morning, so it is possible Michael put the fire on if he was cold. (Are LA nights cold in June?)

BUT even if he did, if this is a real log fire the logs would have burned out long before the LAPD/Coroners got in to take photos. If it is actually on in the photo then someone came and lit it again.

If this is a FAKE log fire, then it is possible is was put on during the night and was still on when they took photos.

The fire probably has no significance at all, but it has always puzzled me.  :?
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Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 03:45:25 AM
Great post Grace  /bravo/
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MJonmind

Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 04:08:04 AM
After reading everyone's excellent thinking, I'm leaning heavily towards the dummy.


--Used already for the ambulance  and autopsy pics.
--realism for all who needed to be working on a body, including “grievers” at UCLA.
--good for body shape for body bag in heli to  coroner van.
--good for risky chance that random outsiders would catch a glimpse in the inside house, ambu, UCLA, heli, coroner van.
--all procedures could be done on a high-tech dummy.
--no legal, sanitation, moral, emotional problems.
--no decaying happening for events happening weeks later such as make-up by LJ and KF.
--hint by Lou Forringi about MJ using a dummy in an ambulance to mislead paps.
--someone mentioned body could be brought into the house in sections in bags, and dismantled similarly at UCLA for removal.
--best fit for MJ’s hoax needing to be on a certain day, hard to find a matching body happening to die close to the day.

Paula-c
Quote (selected)
And who is this video of the bodyguards celebrating among them? If i remember correctly that video was recorded from the top and someone who was inside the house, it is no fans
Good question and for what purpose?  And why even release it unless for hoax purposes.  Do we know for a fact that it was even filmed on the 25th of June? I think add it to "the other day" when MJ himself could have taken it outside his window.  I think they did a TON of stuff that other day. /cook/ :lol:   

TS
Quote (selected)
all indicate that the face is actually someone walking on the far side of the stretcher.
But it is obvious that the releasing of just those 7 pics showing glimpses of someone looking like MJ sitting up, is a deliberate hoax distraction. How many similar things haven't been designed into the hoax, simply for the illusion factor. Those things have sent hoaxers crazy for 2+ years.
mj_bad/
BeTheChange
 
Quote (selected)
P.S. The Murray being MJ in disguise sure was fun while it lasted  Description: :lol:  (I can hear PureLove gloating as I type  Description: :lol:)

That only debunks MJ being Murray on the 25th of June, not on other occasions. I’m still a strong believer that there were 2 Murrays, that MJ was “Murray” on Youtube at least. Originally I thought MJ only disguised as Murray on a few occasions, so I now fall back to that, situations where long close-ups and height is not as much a factor.



Dontwalkaway and Mimi248
I know what you’re saying. I think that God usually provides miracles when it’s the last resort after natural means aren’t feasible, or where they are not realily detectable.  Often so-called miracles have a scientific basis, one that hasn’t been understood.  Possibly the supernatural elements in play on that 25th “death” day, were simply that all complex facets of the hoax went smoothly with little or no glitches (that we are aware of) and that no one spilled the beans. That’s a miracle right there! Especially with no rehearsal! If some condradictions were accidentally helpful for the hoax, maybe God was smiling down and adding his little bits! As far as the lists you gave of out-side-the-box things, I don’t know which things are valid but my guess is half may be human creations of imagination—but I’m not sure of which half. Lol  Jesus most likely was more human than we suspect, along with other similar figures for previous ages, not making it as difficult a task for MJ to become another “Jesus” type for this age—still all under God’s complete design and control, but this is not the thread for that.

RK
Quote (selected)
She'll probably feel a little foolish post BAM for talking about MJ perving at her butt all over the television in the weeks after the illusion went live, along with so many others who came out of the woodwork to capitalize  on their association with MJ.
Kai won’t feel alone!  I really think MJ’s heard just about every possible slap, desire/lust, hate, lie that could be imagined all this time.  Let the man have a little fun as a “ghost”! afraid/
And I liked your list of who might be in on the hoax.


Grace
Quote (selected)
The whole hoax has been a structured publishing series of sessions that made up a movie in our mind.
 These sequences in our mind make it so difficult to put ourselves into a movie production scenario.

 Actors only know the script but don't know what the movie will look like because they shoot sequences in production-conform timing, not in movie-conform timing. It doesn't matter how a movie is being shot as long as the director has a plan to put the pieces together afterwards.
Yes, like a magician’s slight-of-hand using distractions. The human mind automatically starts making assumptions, and fills in with the most logical conclusions.  So on the 25th, only the most visual things happened in live time, and all the other details could be been added as needed but prepared well in advance, such as Murray’s pics and videos with his non-growing child.  Many things simply didn't even need to happen such as Kathy rubbing MJ's feet, and Karen Faye doing MJ's make-up, and on and on.

I think it would be a great idea for someone to make a list of all the details we've heard or read for the 25th that supposedly happened that day, that really didn't have to be done at all, since they pertained to people in on the hoax. And things visual that didn't need to be more than photoshopped such as the fire for a supposedly hot bedroom, that no one not in on it actually witnessed.



Just some additional thoughts.
About Murray getting juice for MJ every night, and any food such as the soup on the 24th. Kai doesn’t need to be in it. We read earlier that for propofol to be given the patient cannot have any food or drink for 8 (not sure) hours before, because of the risk of aspirating while unconscious. In court they said Murray had no equipment for suctioning. This proves to me that Murray for those 6 weeks was only fake-giving him propofol and other meds. They were probably flushed down the toilet or disposed of, or how much of this also should go on the didn't need to happen list.

Another thing, can anyone remember from in court or elsewhere who all remembered meeting or ever seeing Conrad Murray besides Kenny Ortega who got into that disagreement with him over sending MJ home?  This whole thing with Murray is so cloudy. Was he really a doctor or an actor? Were those really patients or actors? Was his name really changed?

These things certainly affect how many were in on the hoax.

Just remembering something TS said a while back about this.  He said that for Elvis' hoax, only 6 people were in on it. His own father Vernon didn't get to be told because he died before he could tell him, and he had been planning to tell him soon.  Obviously MJ's hoax is much more complex and requires more in on it. So perhaps having only 30 or so in on it could be manageable-- 2-3 people in key stations, but there's a lot of stations bounce/  to man.

About the 3 kids being in, I think that Prince and Paris could have been told the day before by MJ, or they would have been hysterical. Later as the 3 were taken to Encino, Blanket could have been told about his Dad taking a trip away for a bit, until they saw signs of him questioning that.  In reality an event like that is totally traumatizing for especially children, let alone his precious ones.   Long ago, my younger brother at 14 had to witness my mother dying and called 911. I’m so thankful I wasn’t living at home at the time because I would have been  errrr .
Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 04:30:15 AM by MJonmind
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MJonmind

Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 05:13:21 AM
MJ's hoax is certainly a puzzle that we have to find and correctly place all the pieces for it to make visual sense to us.


It's also like a tapestry to me, that in process seems messy and nonsensical many times, but will show its beauty more and more near its completion.


Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 05:15:48 AM by MJonmind
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Suzy7

Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Lol Bec, your post made me laugh, but I certainly wasn't fighting with anyone ;).

Mjonmind, good post and you made good points.

As for everything else, I don't care if there was a corpse, a mummy, shrek or a goat on that stretcher; I think this chapter just needs to close already >:P.
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emulik

Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 06:47:33 AM
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MJ is really dead at the moment BUT will resurect.

...and people say believers are delusional :roll: :roll: :roll:...

good night bearhug

i know but i think it's a theorie maybe crazy of course! OMG i just really think that MJ IS Archangel Michael if you just explore this theorie and make your own opinion WITHOUT using Bible and religions! you could probably be driven to the same idea .
in my opinion, there are so many things that are going with this Archangel Michael theory..one year ago I found out that 29 th August is day when Archangel Michael is celebrated...which is also Michael Jacksons birthday..maybe coincidence, but it is interesting..
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"Please do not forget who the driver is! ...:)

MJ will get us home safely! :)

Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 07:28:12 AM
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Quote (selected)
MJ is really dead at the moment BUT will resurect.

...and people say believers are delusional :roll: :roll: :roll:...

good night bearhug

i know but i think it's a theorie maybe crazy of course! OMG i just really think that MJ IS Archangel Michael if you just explore this theorie and make your own opinion WITHOUT using Bible and religions! you could probably be driven to the same idea .
in my opinion, there are so many things that are going with this Archangel Michael theory..one year ago I found out that 29 th August is day when Archangel Michael is celebrated...which is also Michael Jacksons birthday..maybe coincidence, but it is interesting..

I think you're wrong :s Archangel Michael is celebrated on September 29 th Anyway it's also VERY near 1 MONTH OMG . AND i DO agree with you I truly think that we have to think totally OUTSIIIDE the box to find the TRUE and understand the L.I.E :) And to me, there are TOO MUCH coincidences between MJ and Jesus or Archangel Michael and this can't be ignored, otherwise, we won't find who is THE MAN we never knew :) . LOVE
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2good2btrue

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Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 07:36:09 AM
Hi all......maybe a little off topic now, but there is  footage from the Real life Crimes show re-enactment" show, that has video of a starline bus and an EMS 9 vehicle, near the other garage entrance.

In this actual video, it does show a tourist taking a few photos from the bus...

Who was behind me taking the video??  Because Ben didn't get there until 12.40pm.
We,ve been told that Chris Weiss was already there, taking still shots, who else has footage of that fateful day and why haven't they ever been released?

Also I want to listen to this tape.......it was the paramedics that gave information to the LAPD, who then, decided to investigate further.

Look at the pictures of this double acting dead......Geez his body looks soooooo much like MJ's death photo    /woohoo/

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgD4COfhrLU[/youtube]
Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 07:57:15 AM by 2good2btrue
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Adi

Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 07:51:52 AM
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As for everything else, I don't care if there was a corpse, a mummy, shrek or a goat on that stretcher; I think this chapter just needs to close already >:P.

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry - off topic I know......couldn't resist.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gjBhRn94UBo[/youtube]
Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 07:53:39 AM by Adi
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Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 09:18:01 AM
You all are my heroes!!! I don't know where you  get time and power to do your research and post your thoughts! Thank you so much for everything!  bow/
TS i am not lazy (at least that's what i think  :lol:) I really have no time to read all 44 pages of this thread, but today i did my best and i have a couple of things to add. If this has been already said, please feel free to delete my post. Again i'm sorry for not reading the entire thread! :oops:

As i understand right now we are on 7b, who/what if anything went to UCLA.
I saw here someone asked question do we know if Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen actually real doctors and they work in UCLA? I think that i found the answer. They both are real doctors and they work in UCLA.
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As far as i know they are the only doctors who testified from UCLA, which is weird, because Dr. Cooper testified that at least other 14 nurses and doctors were in the emergency room working on Michael on June 25th.
Why would they help Michael? (i think that nothing or a dummy went to UCLA) From the book written by J. Randy Taraborrelli we can see that Michael was connected with UCLA and medicine in general since 80's.
"The peculiar idea came to Michael during the time, after his burn accident, when he had become fascinated with medicine. He'd become a ravenous reader of medical books and enjoyed reading and hearing about dreadful diseases. for a while, he also became obsessed with learning about different surgeries, going so far as to witness operations at UCLA Medical Center.
'Michael's curious about surgery,' said one former associate. 'he gets off on it. he can watch for hours. He especially likes to watch plastic surgeries - tummy tucks, liposuction, he's into all of that. He has even witnessed brain surgeries."

It means that he had some VERY good ties in UCLA, because they won't just let any random person to witness surgeries and he wasn't even a medical student.
Plus UCLA can be used as a location for shooting movies, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. I think only these two doctors were more than enough to let in on it at UCLA. All blood and other tests were conducted under different name (Trauma Gershwin) as well as he was registered under this name in the hospital. The rest of emergency staff could see that something is going on but security could easily not let them in the emergency room where they were supposedly trying to save Michael.

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"What one wishes is to be touched by truth and to be able to interpret that truth so that one may use what one is feeling and experiencing, be it despair or joy, in a way that will add meaning to one\'s life and will hopefully touch others as well.
This is art in its highest form. Those moments of enlightenment are what i continue to live for." -Michael Jackson

Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 09:33:06 AM
TS told us clearly that Michael did not go to UCLA on June 25, 2009, but there are images that show that the family was there. These images were also in real time?  WTF??

Of course they needed to give more reality to the facts, but what should we think about the interviews of Mrs. Katherine, Jermaine and Latoya who described every moment of farewell among the sons of Michael? I thought for some reason Michael could be at UCLA, but now I'm very confused. I still think that  presence of a double can do sense. So the family had gone there to support him and to track the success of events. In addition, there is a picture of the litter coming to UCLA where we can see someone sitting.
The option: "nobody or nothing go to UCLA" would be much more risky than Michael himself! There are curious everywhere, is not?

In relation to people in house, all who testified, I think they're in the farce. Kai Chase has already been seen in the White House ... so maybe it is a federal agent? Maybe a chef FBI agent? In addition, she was hired a few weeks before Michael's death and was instrumental as an eyewitness of the facts, including on the oxygen tanks. Can everybody here believed in her testify??  /cook/

Alvarez and Amir seem very loyal to Michael ... they certainly are within the farce too!
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"Tell the angels no... Heaven can wait"!

Re: TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)
November 26, 2011, 09:47:20 AM
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You all are my heroes!!! I don't know where you  get time and power to do your research and post your thoughts! Thank you so much for everything!  bow/
TS i am not lazy (at least that's what i think  :lol:) I really have no time to read all 44 pages of this thread, but today i did my best and i have a couple of things to add. If this has been already said, please feel free to delete my post. Again i'm sorry for not reading the entire thread! :oops:

As i understand right now we are on 7b, who/what if anything went to UCLA.
I saw here someone asked question do we know if Dr. Cooper and Dr. Nguyen actually real doctors and they work in UCLA? I think that i found the answer. They both are real doctors and they work in UCLA.
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As far as i know they are the only doctors who testified from UCLA, which is weird, because Dr. Cooper testified that at least other 14 nurses and doctors were in the emergency room working on Michael on June 25th.
Why would they help Michael? (i think that nothing or a dummy went to UCLA) From the book written by J. Randy Taraborrelli we can see that Michael was connected with UCLA and medicine in general since 80's.
"The peculiar idea came to Michael during the time, after his burn accident, when he had become fascinated with medicine. He'd become a ravenous reader of medical books and enjoyed reading and hearing about dreadful diseases. for a while, he also became obsessed with learning about different surgeries, going so far as to witness operations at UCLA Medical Center.
'Michael's curious about surgery,' said one former associate. 'he gets off on it. he can watch for hours. He especially likes to watch plastic surgeries - tummy tucks, liposuction, he's into all of that. He has even witnessed brain surgeries."

It means that he had some VERY good ties in UCLA, because they won't just let any random person to witness surgeries and he wasn't even a medical student.
Plus UCLA can be used as a location for shooting movies, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. I think only these two doctors were more than enough to let in on it at UCLA. All blood and other tests were conducted under different name (Trauma Gershwin) as well as he was registered under this name in the hospital. The rest of emergency staff could see that something is going on but security could easily not let them in the emergency room where they were supposedly trying to save Michael.



Interesting post! Besides all the above, we still know that Arnie Klein is a director of the UCLA ... I know that not everyone likes it, but I think Klein can be in the scam and have also helped Michael.

Even Dr. Cooper and his Assistant being in farce,  they would need someone to stay in the stretcher and  bed of the emergency, for added security and to ensure that nothing went wrong. My theory of a double, it still makes sense, then. But it seems I'm alone!

We also discuss about the coroner? Whatever has gone there, he has to be 100% in the hoax, there is no other way ... unless a corpse of a double .... hum .... I think not!
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