TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[fordtocarr]

I know corpses are used for research...but I don't know about bringing one HOME.  I still think that there could be laws on that for health reasons...
Honestly, I think that it's just not safe to handle dead people for hygienic reasons, and I think that's why the practice of home funerals are pretty much not done any longer.  Also, to use a corpse, as I've stated, what about rigor???  I could be wrong, and I could be wrong about what ADI said too, but WTH, it's my opinion and I have one just like everyone else, and most of our guesses will prob. be wrong. 
I just will be SHOCKED if Michael used DEAD person to stage a hoax.

[~Souza~]

@Fordtocarr your post about corpses made me LOL. It seems morbid and unnecessary at first, but it's actually not.
Before people deem a corpse as "useless" research the subject first. They are used for many things and are as plausible as a dummy.

Before telling me to do my research, maybe you should read what I wrote first. I am NOT against the corpse theory, and I am fully aware of the fact that they COULD have used one, but I have an unanswered question: WHY a corpse instead of a dummy? Why did they choose a corpse? So before telling me to do my research, come up with a coherent theory about the necessarity of a corpse first. Really, I am open to it, but I need good arguments first. Just the fact that it's possible won't do. It's also possible to have Jermaine on that stretcher, doesn't mean it happened. So tell me why and if you have good arguments, I am open to changing my mind.

[PureLove]

Pure Love didn't you listen to Ben? He says at 0:30 that DURING THOSE 40 MINUTES THE AMBULANCE WAS INSIDE THE RESIDENCE - 8 TO 10 EMPLOYEES LEFT THE PREMISES !!!


They left before the ambulance left so I don't think they saw the stretcher.

Purelove I think you are tired and I am too...I give you the exact minute where to listen and you don't hear?

I go to bed now, see you tomorrow bearhug

I watched the 5th part of her testimony and she doesn't say anything like she left the property.

It's not the fifh part, it's the 3rd part, I posted it above, listen at 13 /scream/ /scream/ /scream/ /scream/ crash/ crash/

I'm not tired gina. You are overreacting before you understand what I say. I watched the videos you posted BUT ALSO I watched the 5th part of her testimony. And she didn't say that she left the house in the 5th part too. That's what I was saying. Ben says employees left but which ones? Is Kai one of them? Maybe yes, maybe no. I'm not opposing that she left the house before the ambulance, so I don't get why you are screaming at my face. I think we should all be patient and try to understand what every each of us are trying to say. There's no need for frustration and overreacting.

[PureLove]

A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax. And if we're trying to keep as few people as we can in on the hoax, then we can skip the paramedics. They could be deceived by a corpse. I don't know about the doctors tho if they could be deceived or not but the DA has to be in on it. A corpse would explain why the room was heated in the middle of summer and why the paramedics told that they couldn't recognize MJ and told that the man was an old, fragile, Asian man. Probably the paramedics were told about the hoax later and that is the reason why they changed their statements at the trial about recognizing MJ. This is one of the corpse theories.

The second theory of mine about the corpse is; a corpse was used not because the paramedics didn't know about the hoax or the doctors but a corpse was used for them to tell what they really did with the corpse instead of pretending and saying things. Talking about the actual motions is easier to create things in your mind and pretend what you did with the body. [/b]

And for remembering real events, a dummy would do. Using a real corpse just for that reason, seems useless, it's still a dead human being you're dealing with.

Well you can not apply all the procedures on a dummy. And I do believe that a real body would be more useful for the paramedics and the doctors to apply all the procedures on it and tell about what they did instead of pretending doing all the stuff. To me this is a plausible necessarity of using a corpse.

Oh? Do you think it's easy to intubate a long dead corpse? You can do many things with a dummy. You can intubate it, perform CPR on it, give it mouth-to-mouth etc. They even have dummies these days that can give birth to a baby dummy. Handeling a dummy is much easier than using a corpse. Plus you will damage the body: break ribs, damage tissue etc. So as long as there is no valid reason to use it, it's useless.

I'm not opposing to the dummy theory. That is very plausible as well but still the corpse theory fits perfectly in my mind. I mentioned in my first post that the corpse needed to be died soon, actually on the 25th.

A corpse that was dead on the 25th would be useful if the paramedics were not in on the hoax.

And that is the reason why the room was hot, and they were trying to keep the body warm. Handeling a dummy is easier but still it doesn't give the reality for the paramedics and the doctors to tell what they did on it. I think there would be no problem at all to break the ribs etc with a donated corpse. Plus we heard that the ribs were broken during the CPR.

[bec]

@TS, I concede I see what's probably a leg where you highlighted.

Poop.

But like Andrea said, I don't agree that by itself means the Live MJ theory is debunked. Each option is fraught with risk so I don't think you can use "risk" as supportive evidence against anything. If avoiding "risk" were a major concern, MJ would have given up before he began the hoax. I'm a mess this weekend but I have to say this straight away to the current topic:

Who says the room was hot? Or should I say says who? It wasn't even testified to. I don't understand why this rumor has been elevated to accepted truth?

In any case months ago I posted a thing about how the coroner determines t.o.d. and it has to do with the body core temp vs. the ambient room temp, it's a mathematical equation, you plug the numbers in and it gives you a number of hours since death. At that time no one had recorded the room temp at Carrolwood (no record of it and no statement made) and I don't think this ever changed.

Considering the Coroner would be the one to use room temp and compare it to core temp (think meat thermometer...), and the Paramedics took no "room temp" readings to include in their report, and the Coroner showed up hours later... IF the room temp actually was elevated... it's purpose was probably more likely to prevent a dummy from being too cool to the touch... then to warm up a frozen corpse.

[PureLove]

@TS, I concede I see what's probably a leg where you highlighted.

Who says the room was hot? Or should I say says who? It wasn't even testified to. I don't understand why this rumor has been elevated to accepted truth?

There was also pictures of the room with a burning fireplace. A burning fireplace in the middle of summer. What else could it be for if it wasn't on to keep the newly dead body warm?

[bec]

Preventing a dummy from being too cool to the touch? That was my last line Purelove, you prob missed it.

Maybe the fireplace was turned on to fuel the "MJ was always cold and weak and shivering" rumors that Kenny was spreading.

And so what about a pic? We have 2 pics of MJ's supposed dead body too. Look, I'm not trying to be difficult, there's problems with this theory.

[Suzy7]

 I agree with Purelove, there is no need for frustration or overreacting. I personally am open to any theory, but given our options the most likely are a corpse and/or dummy.

 Fordtocarr, TS said we should not look at what would have happened or would not have happened based upon what we feel MJ would or wouldn't do in a general sense, but in a logical sense in order to succeed pulling off a hoax of this scale. I myself didn't like the idea of a corpse but considered it is possible, especially now. If he faked his death for serious reasons too, then it is understandable and the public would grasp the idea better.

 Souza, I wasn't implying you're dumb and should therefore do research, but if you did research you would know that the word "useless" is incorrect when applied to the corpse theory. That is saying it would have been ineffective which is wrong. Maybe more so than a dummy, a corpse would be of greater effect. If you read my posts and others, I have given a coherent theory as to why a corpse or dummy, or even both, were used. I did not say it is 100% fact, but given our options it is most plausible. And yes, it is possible Jermaine could have been on the stretcher, but not probable. There is a difference.

 Like I said, maybe both a dummy and corpse were used. In what order, I don't know, but a freshly deceased corpse would be suitable. They are able to be "experimented" on for up to 10 hrs; that is all that is needed.

[~Souza~]

Suzy7, I don't think you understood a word of what I said.

@PureLove, you have not given me one good reason why a corpse would be required. Like I said: if it is only for creating a scenario, a dummy could do the trick.

[Suzy7]

I do indeed understand what you wrote, perhaps that is vice versa.

You asked: why a corpse instead of a dummy?

I answered: It could have been both, but a corpse could have been more *effective*. Consider the fact that it's a real body and more than two personnel were present at the hospital who were most likely not in the know.

My coherent theory shows BOTH are probable. Anyway, let's not be rude, english is in fact my native language.

[bec]

Ok, that's it you two. To your separate corners, Souza and Suzy. No more off topic bickering allowed. If I have to let MissG have the last word 8 pages ago, then you can't carry on either. I just deleted your little fight.

Let that be a lesson to us all  :twisted:  argue/ bangbang

[~Souza~]

 :lol: :lol: :lol:

 /bravo/

[reasonables+luvs+MJ]

If I can recall, Kai said that Paris and Blanket were downstairs with her, praying with the other workers. And then her story changed to all three of them were in the hallway. I'm not saying that she's a 'major' part of it because maybe she had forgotten, but ... that was probably part of the stript.

[RK]

The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren’t meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.

This line from Adi's post makes sense to me. Coupled with the information we have that no employees, excluding Dr Murray,  were allowed upstairs. So that gets rid of MJ in person on the stretcher..... so  the options of a corpse or dummy remain. Or  possibly a combination of the two were used in entirety. A dummy  from Carolwood to UCLA  and a donated body from the hospital to the coroner for autopsy.[even if chief coroner is in on it]. I still think about the story of James Brown's body disappearing, along with Murray allegedly being his doctor at one stage.  :?
As for questioning if Kai is in on the hoax, I am going to say no based on the information at hand that she was sent out of the mansion with the majority of the other staff. She'll probably feel a little foolish post BAM for talking about MJ perving at her butt all over the television in the weeks after the illusion went live, along with so many others who came out of the woodwork to capitalize  on their association with MJ.
TS, your own words from your last post call the hoax..... 'a production, MJ's  biggest and most important, that has been in production for a long time'..... This is what trips us up and has us believing every man and his dog is in on it from time to time, allowing us to speculate and  envision scenarios without limit, but limited in common sense and do-ability in the real world. So bringing it all back to the need to know basis, we are left with  Murray, Alvarez , the high-fiving  body guards,   paramedics, Michael Amir, the two doctors at UCLA,  the coroner, Ben Evanstead and the other photographer Chris.
Wow, I have come full circle from no body----to a dummy / cadaver combo. Where are you I'mconvinced? 

[Grace]

Anybody having the EXIF data of the "fire in fireplace" room heating picture?
Was it the same room at all?
When was it taken? In advance or at the exact time the CPR was being performed (and who would have a camera at hand at such a moment ...) or after everybody had left the house? When family was moving stuff out?

We have learned that a picture is NO proof of anything, haven't we?
We have learned that a statement of no matter who is NO proof of anything, haven't we?

The whole hoax has been a structured publishing series of sessions that made up a movie in our mind.
These sequences in our mind make it so difficult to put ourselves into a movie production scenario.
Actors only know the script but don't know what the movie will look like because they shoot sequences in production-conform timing, not in movie-conform timing. It doesn't matter how a movie is being shot as long as the director has a plan to put the pieces together afterwards.

We did not even get a script beforehand despite our important role in this play.
That's why everything is so confusing and so hard to debunk.

As to all pictures, videos, interviews, contradicting witness testimonies and each and every paper in tabloids or overheads presented in the trial: there has been a line of garbage bins on June 25, 2009 and ever since we were given additional garbage bins. I have not counted them, but there were many.

I do not consider any of those presented materials or statement as valid, truthful or giving reality in any glimpse.
I have thrown everything that got life as "evidence" into a garbage bin that has become quite full now and is about to go to the dump. Most of what was presented was a means to make it part of the illusionary building and not to give the truth. Prop on the stage that was broadened to the world.

If we take away the veil of all that has been poured over us since 2+ years, there is little that remains and it is this:
Michael disappeared (must not have been on the 25th even).
Carolwood house was used as a stage.
An ambulance was called and drove away to UCLA.
A circus broke loose where some prepared material and distribution channels were used to induce an avalanche of imagination, speculation and illusion. Ever since, Michael has bought time to do what he intended.

I cannot take the picture of the fireplace serious as evidence since there is no proof it was showing the right room at the right time.

Whether another one died that day, a corpse or a dummy was in the house, who or what was put on the stretcher before leaving to UCLA, who or what arrived there, who or what was being treated or not treated there, who or what left with the heli, who or what arrived at the Coroner and who or what left the Coroner - all of this depends on the motivations, overall goal and objectives of the play. These we do not know as we are not MJ nor do we know whether there was a sting or not against whom. Obviously we are not only speculating but also phantasizing, at least this was mentioned.

So in order to not speculate or phantasize, I am going to call the garbage collection service now.
Btw. Michael knew a sober approach would happen sooner or later.
Or else he would have had a hole in his plan.

Still I believe that we did a great job so far, taking into consideration what we had to deal with. Proud of the family here.
It's the journey not the target.