TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[Suzy7]

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[mjj4ever777]

Hi MsTrinity...I've missed your gentle spirit around here the last 10 pages or so lol.  Glad to see you back  bearhug

As for the weeds....if you can't pull 'em, smoke 'em  :lol:

With L.O.V.E. always.

Good one Bethechange...I agree!!!! Anything to, "open your mind"!  lolol/  penguin/

 bearhug for EVERYONE!!! I LOVE YOU ALL!!!!!

[paula-c]

And if Michael never left Carolwood, remember that Janet go house the day 27 according to this news, enter into the house before the police, why ?










Janet Jackson arrives at Michael Jackson's LA home
Story Published: Jun 27, 2009 at 10:20 AM PST

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Janet Jackson arrived at her brother Michael Jackson's Holmby Hills estate Saturday, where moving vans arrived earlier in the day.

Janet Jackson, wearing dark glasses, drove up in a Bentley and went directly to the estate. About eight movers had taken dollies and packing equipment through the gates. It wasn't immediately known what was being taken out.

Most of Michael Jackson's family members had gathered in their Encino compound, where they are contemplating funeral arrangements and caring for his three children. They are feeling confused, upset and angry by the lack of information about those who were around the pop superstar in his final days, a person close to the family told The Associated Press.

Jackson's family wants to know more specifics about what role AEG, the concert promoter that was staging his 50-date concert series at London's 02 Arena, was playing in his life, said the person, who requested anonymity because of the delicate nature of the situation. They also want to know more about the role of his advisers and representatives, who they believe were put in place by the promoter.

AEG spokeswoman Natalie Whorms in London had no comment Saturday.

Jackson never communicated to his family who he had in place to handle his business affairs, the person said, adding that they were told by the singer's phalanx of advisers that he likely had a will, but it may be many years old. The family is distrustful of what they are being told - but they are determined to find out more, the person said.

"There are decisions going down without the family being in the loop; it's becoming an issue," the person said.

Randy Phillips, AEG Live president and chief executive, said earlier Friday that it was Jackson who insisted that Dr. Conrad Murray, a financially troubled cardiologist who was with the entertainer when he collapsed Thursday, be put on the tour payroll.

"As a company, we would have preferred not having a physician on staff full-time because it would have been cheaper without the hotels and travel, but Michael was insistent that he be hired," Phillips said. "Michael said he had a rapport with him."

Jackson collapsed Thursday at his rented home in Los Angeles. Police seized Murray's car in search of evidence, but have insisted that the doctor has been cooperative and do not consider him a criminal suspect.

Records reveal years of financial troubles for Murray, who practices medicine in California, Nevada and Texas; his Nevada medical practice, Global Cardiovascular Associates, was slapped with more than $400,000 in court judgments, and he faces at least two other pending cases and several tax liens.

The person close to the family said that while there were reports that the singer was distant from his family, Jackson spoke with his mother, Katherine, quite regularly and his father, Joe, had seen his son shortly before his death. His other eight siblings, including fellow superstar Janet, may not have talked to him recently but were not estranged.

Much of the family was holed up Friday inside the Jackson family's Encino compound, including his three children, according to the person, who described them as doing "pretty good."

"I don't think it's fully set in yet," the person said.

The pop star left behind three children: Michael Joseph Jackson Jr., known as Prince Michael, 12; Paris Michael Katherine Jackson, 11; and Prince Michael II, 7. The elder children were born to ex-wife Deborah Rowe, while the youngest is his biological son, born to a surrogate mother.

Rowe and Jackson married in 1996 and divorced in 1999.

No family members were present in the mansion when Jackson died Thursday, the person close to the family said. In the 911 call released by fire officials Friday, an unidentified caller tells a dispatcher that Jackson's doctor is performing CPR.

Asked by the dispatcher whether anyone saw what happened, the caller answers: "No, just the doctor, sir. The doctor has been the only one there."

Coroner's officials said they released Jackson's body to his family late Friday night. The family is still trying to determine what kind of memorial to have for Jackson and when, and are debating between the idea of having a private ceremony or a grand celebration open to the public, the person close to the family said.

Jackson appeared to have suffered a heart attack, another person with knowledge of the situation who was not authorized to speak publicly and requested anonymity told the AP on Friday. A heart attack is a blocking of the arteries that deprives the heart of adequate blood and can cause cardiac arrest.

Jackson's brother Jermaine said Thursday that it was believed the pop singer went into cardiac arrest, an interruption of the normal heartbeat that can be caused by factors other than heart attack.

The Los Angeles County coroner's office, which completed its autopsy Friday, said there were no signs of foul play or trauma, but determining the cause of death will require further tests that will take six to eight weeks.

Phillips said AEG Live held multiple insurance policies covering cancellation of the shows, and that some time in February Jackson submitted to several hours of physicals that the insurance underwriter insisted upon, and that Jackson passed them all.

"We had pretty good coverage, but a lot of it is going to depend on the toxicology results," he said. "We need to know what the cause of death was."

---

AP Writers Beth Harris and Mike Blood and AP Global Media Services Production Manager Nico Maounis in Los Angeles and Shawn Pogatchnik in London contributed to this report.
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[all4loveandbelieve]

@Andrea, Yes I've heard that from people who live in the area, so the subliminal message of "everything is trash" is likely as it was an obvious theme.

@Snoopy I saw that, but the sheets looked almost crumpled up?
 There were also too many people creating distraction, the "body" looked flat and stiff, but light. An illusion definitely took place.

Oh yeah Definitely!

 I don't care how strong you are...you are not "one arm" lifting 136lb man!!!!....or even 110lbs. :?

I don't remember seeing that guy one arm the 'body' before but I must've seen that footage a hundred times.  Weird.  Dummy?  It looks like he lifted it from the head/chin area...

What the heck,that most definitely was a dummy.Either that or a stiff corpse.U cant lift a 130 something lb man with one arm,no freaking way .Hell u cant lift a 40lb dog with one arm.Dummy,no doubt.U guys r great with ur detective skills.

So what does this mean?

Clearly it was a dummy/doll/whatever fake body thingy.....

Does this mean the helicopter transport was a decoy?

Did Michael stay on the helicopter? (was that him being unstrapped mid flight?)


....sigh....more questions than answers...

I think it was Michael himself under the sheet getting into the helicopter. And they changed and put a dummy under the sheet. That's what we see in the van moved by that guy with a single hand. Probably MJ used the helicopter to go somewhere else. The van was a good distraction. people and the media were following the van so Michael flew with the helicopter to the destination he wanted.

But what for?

The media followed the van until it went into the parking garage. So what if they follow? Let them follow. A gate closes in the garage and prevents them from following anyway. Besides, if MJ was so concerned about the media following the coroner van... why did he have the helicopter unload his "body" into a van to be driven anywhere? Why did he arrange for his "body" to be helicoptered directly to a location where it could be brought inside through the roof entrance, and transported later that evening when the whole world wasn't glued to their TV screens watching it all unfold? Perhaps while Jermaine was doing his press conference and we were watching that, if privacy and secrecy was desired... if MJ needed to "escape", again, he had many better, more secure, less risky ways to do it, that didn't involve a switch-a-roo done on live feed, David Coperfield style.

It serves no purpose at that point, for MJ to switch places with a dummy. The dummy would have to be on the helicopter already, necessitating the helicopter pilot and crewman to be in on it anyway. So this dummy would be used only to fool a couple guys fooling around for a min in the coroner van? It's not to fool the coroner we have already determined and collectively agreed upon. I don't see the point in bringing the helicopter guys in on it, as well as having a perfect MJ replica floating around out there (had to be loaded onto the helicopter at some point) just waiting for the wrong set of eyes to happen upon it (automatic jig's up! time), for the sole and specific purpose of fooling a couple of guys who handle it while wrapped in a sheet for :04 seconds.

I believe MJ could indeed play dead for that long. I believe I could so I believe anyone could who really wanted to. Remember being a kid and playing dead? It's not that hard for short periods of time. Who knows, those couple of guys might be in on it anyway. IF the FBI is involved, they probably have something to do with supplying the helicopter. Their guys don;t even have to know however. A helicopter pilot isn't going to monkey with a corpse in the back (he's flying the helicopter) and his crewman is hanging out the bloody door the whole ~5 min flight. These are the last guys who are likely to take a peak. But again, go ahead and peak, it's really MJ :lol:

I still do not believe the thing (body or dummy) that was loaded into the helicopter is the same one with the one they took off the helicopter. There is a huge difference btw the two. It wasn't necessary for Michael to be in that scene. That could be anyone who was under the sheet getting into the helicopter. It was probably to give us the clue by showing us the moving body inside the helicopter. I don't know with what other purposes would the helicopter fly with open doors.

I believe it was Michael himself under the sheet and moved inside the helicopter on purpose and then he used helicopter to fly somewhere else. He didn't need to stay in the van. As I wrote before the van was a good distraction for the media, so he could travel without people noticing him. In this case, the people inside the helicopter and the van are of course in on the hoax, as well as the DA and the doctors in the hospital. Using a dummy is not for fooling someone but it was for distraction while he was flying somewhere else.

I agree, someone was in that bag. Now I found out that the white bag have little holes so you can breathe.. My doctor friend told me, but he did not have time to explain what is the difference between that bag and the plastic bag.. Unless I am speculating here, if someone got shot and killed they are full of blood, I guess they would use the black plastic bag, and someone that dies like normal death they probably use that white bag.. I need to ask him..

[PureLove]

I thought we did have a body theory? Mj (and maybe dummy)

TS quoted Bec's statement about realism for a reason. So I think MJ was there through it all so that the paramedic's recollection of event's and everyone else involved, would be based  on a combination of both:  script + alive MJ. This would allow the testimony about the event's of June 25 to be based on much more realistic sounding occurences vs. just script + imagination.
I also think the people handling the body would be in the know, for the simple fact of unavoidable risk MJ could be in. As I mentioned before, the FBI/movie aspect would be enough to keep them quiet, and who knows if they weren't FBI and/or actor's themselves.

So the just MJ theory can be added to that ambulance theory?

On a side note, MJonMind mentioned 'blue shirt guy' and I remember us discussing him in '09; I noticed his hair is the same as the autopsy photo. It's curly and in a ponytail.

TS reminded us about bec's post which was about a real 911 call was made. bec wrote: "It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination."

I do not think TS was trying to say MJ had to be in every single place himself to make it real. If a real 911 call was made, a real autopsy might have done and this requires a real corpse. A corpse where the doctors worked on for an hour and the autopsy was done on would make everything more real. It's not because these people (doctors or DA) are not in on the hoax BUT like bec says "It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened." That would make them tell the things easily instead of pretending what they could be done, and how they could be done.

[Delia]

I think Pure Love is right. That body seems very rigid, like it was frozen. Was it indeed ?

[paula-c]

And now (drum roll) … we are at the final level—level number 7!  (7 represents completion).  Now it’s time to take everything that we have learned so far (in the previous levels, etc), and put the last few pieces of the puzzle into place.

This is the final frontier for the hoax; the “when’s” and “why’s” have already been thoroughly established, especially through the numerology—and more than a year has gone by, without anyone even making a serious attempt to claim the $999 reward.  Therefore, the only frontier left is the “how’s” of the hoax, which is exactly what we have been going through in the levels; and this is the last of the levels, therefore we are now entering the conclusion of the final frontier—THIS IS IT!

The previous levels were not a waste, because without them we would not be where we are now.  Much of the research has already been done, and some of the pieces have already come together (just like the picture above); but we still have a few major areas that need completed (just like the picture above).  As I have said already, the minor details on the “how’s” are not very important (and may never been fully understood); however, for more than one reason, the major aspects of the “how’s” should be resolved.

For example, level 3 never really got resolved (who or what, if anything, went to UCLA in the ambulance?).  I am confident that this will be resolved, though, before the end of level 7.  Another major area, that keeps popping up unresolved, is the idea that the ambulance was at Carolwood and UCLA on some day other than 6-25-09; and closely related is the fairly common idea that two or more ambulances were used (supposedly different lettering, reflector, wrong shadows, etc).

There are quite a few such theories floating around, and they all need to be thoroughly debunked for once and for all—so that we can see the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible, other than the very few things that required otherwise (such as the ambulance photo).  There would be no need whatsoever to be running ambulances and firetrucks around town, on one or more days before 6-25-09, like kids playing with their toys.  It would only create numerous opportunities to raise suspicions, at the least.  Also, to NOT have the ambulance at Carolwood and then UCLA on 6-25 would be another sure fire way to raise major suspicions.

The ambulance photo needed to be staged in advance, because of the great difficulty getting a good picture through the window “on the fly”; and if you missed the one chance, you would not get another.  But staging that photo in advance would not raise public suspicion, if it was done indoors.

Also, some seem to think that the ambulance picture was generated from nothing, in good-old “Photoshop”; but the reality is, no matter how good you are at Photoshop, you don’t just start from nothing and end up with a high resolution photograph (like the ambulance photo).  Staging the ambulance photo gives you the basic picture(s) to work from; and then you can modify it with Photoshop (such as adding the car reflection, by taking a separate photo of the car, and then layering it in Photoshop with some transparency).

So I want to start this level by debunking all the false theories about the ambulance (such as more than one ambulance, or it went to UCLA on a different day, etc).  There is little point in discussing who or what went to UCLA on June 25 in the ambulance, if we’re not even sure whether the ambulance itself went to UCLA on June 25 2009! I need your help bringing all these theories to this thread, whether you believe in them or not; but please read all the posts in this thread before posting one of these theories, and make sure that it’s not a repeat of the same basic theory already discussed and debunked.  Also, anyone can help out in the debunking process as well; this will help us get to the end faster.

8-)

Once that is done (level 7a), we’ll move on to level 7b; I probably won’t start a new thread, but I will post a picture in this thread of another puzzle piece put into place.  Level 7b will be who or what went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.  When that is resolved, I will post another step in the puzzle pieces coming together; and we will finish this level with 7c, which will be any further details about the FBI, sting, and court.  When level 7c is done, I will post a picture of the completed puzzle.

penguin/

At this point, I’m going to give you a couple of real good pointers, which should help you as we go through this final level.  Start with the fewest people possible in on it, which would actually be zero and no hoax (MJ really died); and then work backwards from that point—changing nothing from the no hoax scenario, except what is NEEDED to be changed in order to accomplish the hoax.  I already gave you an example with the ambulance: if MJ really died, then the ambulance came to Carolwood and went to UCLA on June 25, 2009.  Don’t change that for the hoax, unless there is a need for it to happen on a different day.  And use this same principle, in putting all the pieces together.

Last but not least, here is a real good statement from bec, which she posted in my recent thread about the timing of the 911 call (12:20 or 12:21?).  Keep this concept in mind, because it applies to far more than just the 911 call.  “One good reason I can think of doing an actual call that day (not 911, just a call) is for realism later. It’s very easy to keep up appearances if what you are talking about actually happened. Alvarez’s testimony and statements, Murray’s statements on this documentary, they can be describing an actual staged scene as opposed to just a figment of imagination. Recalling an actual event would give their statements a sense of realism, instead of them simply reciting lines.” {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.

[Mish1981]

Perhaps my post got lost with everyone posting at the same time. However I would like someone to read this and give their feed back.

Do you think those in the helicopter and coroners van had to be in on it if it were truly Michael himself? Here's my question if those people are NOT in on it, if it were Michael then he would be taking a huge risk by just breathing, let alone if he had to cough or sneeze. So does that mean if Michael was in fact in both the helicopter and coroners van that all parties were involved?

[neversaynever]

The guys in the helicopter that took the body to the coroner don't have to in on it at all, they could have been told that they needed to take a dummy with them and fly with an open door to make sure the predators (media) would stay distracted and that they would bring the real body with a van for safety reasons.

I believe that is so TRUE. The whole flight was a distraction for the media. When have we ever seen anything of this nature take place for a famous death? Correct me if I am wrong on this one. But they have never "staged" a flight for anyone like this. Has anyone seen this happen before with a famous person?

[Australian MJ BeLIEver]

hi all. i have been ill and therefore absent from forum for several days.

@TS. thank you for level 7a.

@ everyone. wow. just read 8 pages. so  many theories. so many fights. so many videos. so much debunking...  a lot has been written and i'm afraid i can not add anything insightful or of value to what has already been said. in addition to this, i am not decided on a few things personally, so therefore will refrain from commenting, as i dont want to make comment when i am not certain i believe what i am saying.

nevertheless. i am here. i am reading. and i applaud your diligence in quantifying what happened on 25.06.09.


@ TS. we are in need of conflict resolution. perhaps in the form of level 7b. 

[GINAFELICIA]

Perhaps my post got lost with everyone posting at the same time. However I would like someone to read this and give their feed back.

Do you think those in the helicopter and coroners van had to be in on it if it were truly Michael himself? Here's my question if those people are NOT in on it, if it were Michael then he would be taking a huge risk by just breathing, let alone if he had to cough or sneeze. So does that mean if Michael was in fact in both the helicopter and coroners van that all parties were involved?

If ti was himself in the helicopter and van, those people there should be in the hoax. And besides, why would be himself there? He could just have left away from UCLA and let things go further without him, if the coroner was already in the hoax.

[ShyBleuEyes]

Hi All4Loveandbelieve,

Have you seen my post about the Body Bag at page 14? Because i added a link there. You see that the purpose for using a body bag is for preventing that people who handled the deseased ones got infected  i. I have searched for sheets also, and the sheets are also fluid protected, so no leaking through the sheet is possible.

With LOVE Always

[patman]

I think that in the helicopter the person on the bed was the change from MJ to Dummy.  Right in front of our eyes .
There is such a big difference in the size of the body and the "thing" that left the helicopter, it has to be a dummy.
I have no explanation yet abt where and how the dummy could get away without involving 2 many people.

But i do believe that after the Van left the helicopter platform, the helicopter went to LAX (is it possible to trace that ?).  From where MJ took a plane to freedom.

What i also find interesting, is that only after 1,5 day, MJ's stuff is being taken away out of the Carolwood house. I mean...so soon already, with the investigation going on ...

Maybe i posted this in the wrong location,  apologies for that, im not posting often

[PureLove]

To me, it is impossible to believe that these two are the same body. The one they put into the van is so flat and what happened to the feet? Is he ballet dancing or what? lol

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[fordtocarr]

hi all. i have been ill and therefore absent from forum for several days.

@TS. thank you for level 7a.

@ everyone. wow. just read 8 pages. so  many theories. so many fights. so many videos. so much debunking...  a lot has been written and i'm afraid i can not add anything insightful or of value to what has already been said. in addition to this, i am not decided on a few things personally, so therefore will refrain from commenting, as i dont want to make comment when i am not certain i believe what i am saying.

nevertheless. i am here. i am reading. and i applaud your diligence in quantifying what happened on 25.06.09.


@ TS. we are in need of conflict resolution. perhaps in the form of level 7b. 

Hope you're feeling better now!!  Looking forward to your comments