TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[bec]

The ambulance was on scene @Carrolwood for a while, paramedics were reportedly trying (and failing) to revive him at the scene. Remember initial reports that Dr. Murray was "interfering" a lot with the paramedics while they tried to work on MJ. Paramedic reportedly complaining the Murray was "in the way". Paramedics didn't rush in, load up MJ and split, they were at Carrolwood for a period of time. The phone call en route 1pm-ish would support the original suggested timeline.

[underthemoon]

Two years ago a wonder about the heli flight....they put a stretcher with two blue belts in the heli and flow away....only one heli follows this heli.
The next video we saw shows the last minutes before landing at the coroner and they put a stretcher without belts out...i surched at google maps and found out that the heli that lands at the coroner don't come from the right side....the sun was going down in the west and this heli has to fly to the east to come to the coroner, but he always fly in the west...to the sun !
Then he was so very good filmed and never rearly high...he flow over aome streets and trees....i surched back from the landing place and found out that it is possible that he came from the USC Hospital, only a fiew streets away from the coroner. from there he flow over the Alcazar Str., left in the Eastlake Ave, right in the Biggy Str. and along the N State Str. to the coroner.
There is not one reason that he have to fly so low through this roads when he came from the UCLA !
Please take a look at the map. The USC Hospital is in the north east of the coroner:
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I will put a link of the flight soon !

And for me it looks like the men from the coroner.....the older one in the lighter shirt who seams to lead the others....wraps the fingerprints away after they closed the back doors and the other touched the door without gloves he goes back and clean there gain. Same at the doors at the side....seams like they had later no chance to do this and they can't do it better because they where filmed.

I wish i could better explain, but english isn't my native language... /white flag/

[underthemoon]

Here is the link to the flight from, what i mean the USC Hospital to the coroner....i had taken some time to identify the buildings but i am sure.
The coroner buildings are getting more since 2009...they are still working on it.

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[Suzy7]

Well Bec, I didn't think they grabbed him and split lol, but considering it wasn't a real emergency that seems like quite a while.

[MJonmind]

Sounds like most are agreed then that the body was MJ alive!  That was my choice when TS first asked the body question in the other levels.  Bec has so ably presented all the stages, times and places during the 25th with a live MJ, and now it seems more plausable than ever, and Snoopy71 has been helpful seeing things.   I'm still not 100% sure though, and am still keeping open to other scenarios, since we can't know all the aspects of the illusion methods of the master magician, and we could be making false assumption or missing things. Only TS can verify if this was indeed the correct choice, since in the earlier levels he seemed to lead us to focus on the corpse, double, no body or dummy choices.  Someone said that perhaps it was a mixture of a dummy and MJ himself at different times which seems possible to me too, although I did appreciate Snoopy71’s reasoning of storage of dummy problems. 


It would be awesome if it was all him!  I’m sure MJ would have loved a good foot-rub in UCLA by Kathy Hilton! It may have been fun but a little traumatic still for the kids and Katherine at UCLA.   However weeks later if he was still the "dead" body they worked on, 9 hours of make-up with Karen Faye and LaToya while they chatted about whatever might have been a little tedious for him. :lol:  


These are some possible problems for a live MJ body:
--MJ can’t see what’s happening under the sheets; he’d like to see every part of the action himself.
--There’s the oxygen issue under the bag or sheets, but maybe it was a loose breathable cloth.
--The blue-shirt guy that looks like MJ inside the gate before the ambulance slowly backs out, would have to be quickly wrapped in the sheets and put on the gurney.
--The body does seem to be roughly handled at times, especially if any handlers were not in on the hoax, making a potential for injury.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login




I want to apologize for any trouble my earlier post led to. I just like to explore all possibilities. SimPattyK, please stay, you are needed and appreciated here! bearhug   respect/

[Mish1981]

I lost my place when reading but I wanted to ask about the coroners van. If MJ was wrapped in a sheet and transported from the helicopter into the van then wouldn't someone notice his breathing? Or what if he happened to sneeze or cough? Those are things that can't be helped and as some of you might know, the sneezing and coughing can happen at the worse times (like at a wedding for example). If those people transporting and doing the actual moving weren't involved in the hoax, MJ was taking a huge risk to be found out.

[Sarahli]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]

I am not sure what you guys are saying concerning this video but at 0:28 there is a first person who enters the van, so the guy we see lifting the body/dummy isn't doing this alone, there is someone else helping him. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[paula-c]

Sounds like most are agreed then that the body was MJ alive!  That was my choice when TS first asked the body question in the other levels.  Bec has so ably presented all the stages, times and places during the 25th with a live MJ, and now it seems more plausable than ever, and Snoopy71 has been helpful seeing things.   I'm still not 100% sure though, and am still keeping open to other scenarios, since we can't know all the aspects of the illusion methods of the master magician, and we could be making false assumption or missing things. Only TS can verify if this was indeed the correct choice, since in the earlier levels he seemed to lead us to focus on the corpse, double, no body or dummy choices.  Someone said that perhaps it was a mixture of a dummy and MJ himself at different times which seems possible to me too, although I did appreciate Snoopy71’s reasoning of storage of dummy problems. 


It would be awesome if it was all him!  I’m sure MJ would have loved a good foot-rub in UCLA by Kathy Hilton! It may have been fun but a little traumatic still for the kids and Katherine at UCLA.   However weeks later if he was still the "dead" body they worked on, 9 hours of make-up with Karen Faye and LaToya while they chatted about whatever might have been a little tedious for him. :lol:  


These are some possible problems for a live MJ body:
--MJ can’t see what’s happening under the sheets; he’d like to see every part of the action himself.
--There’s the oxygen issue under the bag or sheets, but maybe it was a loose breathable cloth.
--The blue-shirt guy that looks like MJ inside the gate before the ambulance slowly backs out, would have to be quickly wrapped in the sheets and put on the gurney.
--The body does seem to be roughly handled at times, especially if any handlers were not in on the hoax, making a potential for injury.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login




I want to apologize for any trouble my earlier post led to. I just like to explore all possibilities. SimPattyK, please stay, you are needed and appreciated here! bearhug   respect/

Rubbing the feet, that makes Tickles :lol:

[Andrea]

Like I said on the previous page, I'm fully convinced MJ was there every step on June 25th.  Watch the video Snoopy posted again - you can see the body move on it's own as the guy hefts it.  To me, it's Michael.  There is no doubt in my mind anymore that it was him all the way.  And it's the simplest explanation.  Like bec said, if the FBI is involved, they could've supplied the chopper.  Or the chopper crew (who was hanging out the open door while in flight like an action movie - very FBI-ish, lol).  In that case, no need to worry about these guys being in on it.  Let's not make this harder than it has to be.  Watch the video again and see it for yourself (for those still unsure).  The body in the sheet is Michael, alive and moving.

[curls]

I haven't been able to be around much for a few days, but have managed to catch up on this thread. Terrific posts guys and I'm in awe at how well put together your ideas are. I have trouble relaying my thoughts in a coherant manner, so I take off my hat to you brilliant wordsmiths!

I like the simple theory, as I said a few days ago, MJ being alive rather than dead is all that needs to be changed, but I'm conscious that this was 'an illusion' on 25th June, so really whatever I, or we, think we've agreed on, we may still be way off!!

I wonder when TS will let us know how we're doing!

[Snoopy71]

I think we're a majority in agreement on the ambulance sequence.

- ambulance photo is fake
- only one ambulance @Carolwood
- ambulance footage was filmed 6/25 (albeit slightly edited)
- ambulance did arrive @ UCLA 6/25

THE BODY

We seem to be split over whether or not the body is actually MJ or a dummy.



Major issue of contention for this: Why where the white sheets used instead of a body bag?



LIVE MJ vs DUMMY



Dummy:

Pros:

- can be a replica of Michael (realism/less suspicion)
- can endure rough handling (limit the number of people in on the hoax)
- could have been placed in a real body bag (unless the chemical/materials had to have air)
- possibly used for autopsy photos
- point of reference for EMS, UCLA Doctors, Coroner
- enable Michael to not have to be physically be present
- utilized in the Memorial and Burial services


Cons:

- acquisition (creation could raise suspicion)
- storage      (Carolwood, UCLA, Coroners)
- disposal*    (removal from Coroners)
- discovery    (close examination)



LiveMJ:


Pros:

- is actually himself (realism)
- control over events (directing capability)
- point of reference for EMS, UCLA Doctors, Coroner
- does not require storage



Cons:

- enduring rough handling
- inability to breathe under sheets (* airholes possibly added to assist - ANDREA)
- risk being seen moving
- possible discovery upon escape (from Coroners)


Also note the following key points to consider:

Use of white sheets versus of a body bag;

- so Michael can potentially breathe (LIVE MJ)
- prevent chemicals/materials from potential "breakdown" (DUMMY)
- to match with autopsy photos created (LIVE MJ AND DUMMY)


 Disposal & Escape;

- body was claimed/removed by the family to Forest Lawn (disposal from Coroners)(DUMMY)
- body possibly used for Memorial, Burial, Tomb (DUMMY)
- no clues offered regarding escape method after Coroners (LIVE MJ)
- no body needed for Memorial, Burial, Tomb; closed casket (LIVE MJ)



There are obviously benefits and drawbacks to both, but which option seems most credible?



*If there are other points I forgot to mention, please feel free to add it as it may help to come to a conclusion. :mrgreen:

[Snoopy71]

Okay,

So here's MY personal take of why I'm leaning towards dummy.


I question Michael's ability to breathe while wrapped in the sheets for one. Not saying it isn't possible, it just seems extreme. The second is the footage of the body being handled in the van. To me that seems pretty rough especially in combination with being wrapped in the sheets (limited breathing). Michael is not some 20year old, big meaty football player....he's pretty frail, so the injury potential seems high in this scenario.

Now true enough he could easily be medicated with a muscle relaxant or something to get through it(cause lord knows given the right medication you could take a direct hit from an gorilla and not feel it!), but to me it just seems like an unnecessary extreme.
 

[Andrea]

Snoopy I agree that Michael is not a bulked-out guy but he's not made of crystal either. The guy who lifted Michael probably said "gonna lift/move you now" or something so Michael was ready for it.  And it's not like he threw him across the room - he was shifted about a foot, maybe less? 

Small little holes could've pierced the sheet for easier breathing and also be not visible.  A live Michael also explains why they didn't use a body bag, plus it's a clue for people like us (hoaxers).  Also, having Michael there instead of a dummy means no need for disposal (like you said) and also eliminates the risk of anyone not in on it discovering the dummy before it can be disposed of.

[Snoopy71]

Snoopy I agree that Michael is not a bulked-out guy but he's not made of crystal either. The guy who lifted Michael probably said "gonna lift/move you now" or something so Michael was ready for it.  And it's not like he threw him across the room - he was shifted about a foot, maybe less? 

Small little holes could've pierced the sheet for easier breathing and also be not visible.  A live Michael also explains why they didn't use a body bag, plus it's a clue for people like us (hoaxers).  Also, having Michael there instead of a dummy means no need for disposal (like you said) and also eliminates the risk of anyone not in on it discovering the dummy before it can be disposed of.

True, very true.  :?

I added your airholes idea to the outline (I hope you don't mind)...that never occured to me 

Score 1 for LIVE MJ  :lol:

Now if I could just wrap my mind around the roughness... :|

[MsTrinity333]

Just a quick thought I had whilst outside gardening which leads from bec's post above....

Judge Pastor deliberately focussed our attention to the date June 9th 2009 when he read out the Jury Forms during the verdict. Remember the Jury had written the incorrect "death" date as June 9th 2009 and crossed it out with "squiggly lines"and then written June 25th 2009. I think he did this for a VERY good reason......to make sure we remembered that significant date again.

As we know June 9th 2009 was when MJ apparently finished filming the "top secret" Dome Project at Culver studios. ...wasn't it suggested ages ago that Dome project stood for Death of Me     :lol: !!!

We know that the scenes for Thriller, Smooth Criminal etc were filmed during the Dome Project. Perhaps as well as these, all the images, footage, photos etc we have seen from his "death" day were actually filmed too, using green screens and sets during this time of the Dome Project and released as needed. I am sure TS talked about this ages ago in another level.

Now how this works in with if an ambulance really went to Carolwood Drive and then to UCLA on June 25th to make the day more "real"and also WHAT/WHO exactly went in the ambulance and how that then ties in with who is in on it and who isn't......well....I have to think more about that whilst ripping up weeds.

OK... I'm going to stop here with Adi before I get totally overwhelmed.
Hi TS; I knew you would post on 11-11-11   /bravo/ bearhug

BeTheChange, PureLove, Bec & ImConvinced have all had great posts. I quoted many in a draft on 11-11-11 that I was going to come back to and post on pg three...  Then the weekend happened and you are all on 14!  OMG! I'm exhausted mentally, physically & spiritually at this point so forgive me for not reading to the end before posting.  I agree with Adi. (weed pulling is indeed good for the soul!)  Whether there's a body or no body; (cancer patient), the ambulance picture, court pictures, 911 call, MJ court recording, "That day and the other d...ummm ummm" THIS IS ALL PART OF THE DOME PROJECT. 
The Illusion was now set to begin 6-25-09: stage the bedroom, prepare the body etc...lights on all night.
We then had a Live Action Day with MJ directing behind the scenes; "Action" for all the realism & media frenzy needed in a celebrity death. ie Ambulance at Carlwood, hospital vigils, fans. 
Hoax: YES.
Sting: YES.
FBI: YES  mj_bad/

L.O.V.E. TO ALL  bearhug