TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[all4loveandbelieve]

:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!

Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.

The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is??


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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]

Yes I saw it too he lifted the body, probably the feet or maybe to help Michael remove the bag over him.. you guys say it may be a dummy maybe not. Remember if Michael is alive he could have helped himself move when the deputy was moving him. I have no clue. It is too fast.

[Snoopy71]

Snoopy, I rather like that you arrived on the scene. You're really contributing here, I am glad to have you aboard. Great post. But you forget the third option; dummy/cadaver/Live MJ.

Live MJ solves the problem of storage and disposal (lol). Live MJ can disguise or hide and be ushered out of anywhere in a multitude of ways. He's been doing it his whole life, really. No different on 6/25/09 if he had to find someway to leave undetected by public or paps. Who better then MJ to leave a venue unnoticed?

Live MJ solves the problem of fooling the casual glance. If someone were to catch a glimpse of him on the stretcher; either through the Carrolwood gates or going into the ER at UCLA, it really is MJ on the stretcher so there's no problem. Appearances are kept up. Who's to say at quick glance if he's alive or dead?

Live MJ also solves the basic need for MJ to direct and oversee Day Zero, which is so crucial to the 2+ year long project which was to follow.

Live MJ lets us see him sitting up on the stretcher and sitting up in the helicopter.

Live MJ also completes the story with Van Video and coroner photoshoot in one seamless flow.

Using a Live MJ is the simplest scenario that satisfies all of the hoax needs. Live MJ also allows everyone to say it looked like MJ and it was MJ and they worked on MJ, MJ was laying there, etc. Maybe when they gave him the balloon pump they gave it to him and let him play around with it for awhile (ha). They had a couple of hours to kill.

I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.

I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.

Bec,

I would 100% agree with you....that is until about 20 minutes ago.

Now I'm a little shaky on the "live MJ" scenario.

The Cadaver/Donnor body theory is out the window for me.

I was debating with PureLove about the body transport to the van. In some instances the body appears "flat", so I reviewed the video taken that day and came across some interesting revelations.

I don't want to prejudice your perspective, so take a look and see what it looks like to you.

The video is looped, but the event occurs at :51, 4:40, 5:40 and 8:17.

Look closely inside the van.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]

[simplyme]

:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!

Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.

The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is??

Hi Snoopy...the gurney that Michael was on belonged to the chopper.  They removed the body from the gurney that belonged to the chopper and gave it back to the chopper crew.


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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]

[bec]

Snoopy, I rather like that you arrived on the scene. You're really contributing here, I am glad to have you aboard. Great post. But you forget the third option; dummy/cadaver/Live MJ.

Live MJ solves the problem of storage and disposal (lol). Live MJ can disguise or hide and be ushered out of anywhere in a multitude of ways. He's been doing it his whole life, really. No different on 6/25/09 if he had to find someway to leave undetected by public or paps. Who better then MJ to leave a venue unnoticed?

Live MJ solves the problem of fooling the casual glance. If someone were to catch a glimpse of him on the stretcher; either through the Carrolwood gates or going into the ER at UCLA, it really is MJ on the stretcher so there's no problem. Appearances are kept up. Who's to say at quick glance if he's alive or dead?

Live MJ also solves the basic need for MJ to direct and oversee Day Zero, which is so crucial to the 2+ year long project which was to follow.

Live MJ lets us see him sitting up on the stretcher and sitting up in the helicopter.

Live MJ also completes the story with Van Video and coroner photoshoot in one seamless flow.

Using a Live MJ is the simplest scenario that satisfies all of the hoax needs. Live MJ also allows everyone to say it looked like MJ and it was MJ and they worked on MJ, MJ was laying there, etc. Maybe when they gave him the balloon pump they gave it to him and let him play around with it for awhile (ha). They had a couple of hours to kill.

I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.

I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.

Bec,

I would 100% agree with you....that is until about 20 minutes ago.

Now I'm a little shaky on the "live MJ" scenario.

The Cadaver/Donnor body theory is out the window for me.

I was debating with PureLove about the body transport to the van. In some instances the body appears "flat", so I reviewed the video taken that day and came across some interesting revelations.

I don't want to prejudice your perspective, so take a look and see what it looks like to you.

The video is looped, but the event occurs at :51, 4:40, 5:40 and 8:17.

Look closely inside the van.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]

I've seen it. I did rewatch it again but I have seen it a thousand times, and I'm probably not kidding. This wasn't missed, the topic of the man lifting the "body" in the coroner's van was tossed around at length in 2009 (no pun intended). Keep watching the tape. He uses both hands and he pics the "body" up with the knot of the sheet. He hefts what appears to be the right amount of weight in making the effort. Watch again, and again, and again. It's  spot on.

I think it's Live MJ. How fun would that be. I have always loved that theory because it's so much incredible fun even though I didn't think it was very realistic (risk), but now that we have seen trial and know that Dr. Cooper is for sure in on the hoax (tells us she worked on a dead body for over 1 hour and called t.o.d. 2:26), I'm totally fine with this theory being The One. It all fits, start to finish, in perfect lateral progression of Day Zero events.

[bec]

And Live MJ lets everyone recant an accurate story regarding the days events in regards to MJ's body.

It WAS MJ's body. MJ's LIVE body  :lol:

[BeTheChange]

IF Mike had 'died' on June 25th....he would've been 'loaded' into the ambulance at Carolwood, wheeled into UCLA on a stretcher, he would've been 'loaded' into the helicopter, and he then would've been 'loaded' into the Coronor's van.  At least that's the progression of things that we either saw with our own eyes or were told happened (i.e. we didn't see him being loaded into the ambulance at Carolwood...it's assumed but would be a logical assumption if he had really died on June 25th).

If the main point of this level is to 'keep it simple' (as TS advised)...then the ONLY thing that would NEED to be 'different' from the 'no hoax, MJ really died' scenario to the 'hoax, MJ is alive' scenario...is that Mike DID all those things, but he was 'alive' the whole time.  Would it be 'risky'?  Sure.  But faking your death is pretty risky in itself.  Was there a NEED to have MJ under those sheets, in the helicopter, and then in the coroner van?  I'm sure that's debatable.  But maybe MJ 'wanting' to do 'it' all himself, overshadowed any 'need'.

Did any of that make sense?  :lol:  Holy crap...he may have just done it all himself  afraid/....and why not?  If a movie is involved in all this...why wouldn't he play himself in it...dead or alive?    Of course, we may come to find out he didn't lol....but if there's anyone that could pull that off AND who is enough of a prankster to do it...it would be Mike.

With L.O.V.E. always.

[use_your_illusion]

@bethechange I found it...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI1CkuuKrBc&feature=related[/youtube]

@12:08 on peoples #52 it shows a phone call made by Conrad to her residence at 1:08, and in that article it did say she got a call around 1pm, and this was when Conrad was in the ambulance....@15:42-16:24 Brazil asks Alverez, 'Was this the time he (Conrad) was in the ambulance'...she recalls that Murray was in the ambulance with Michael Jackson.

Also, I guess another way we can work it out, is to see what time the ambulance arrived at UCLA maybe.

[use_your_illusion]

IF Mike had 'died' on June 25th....he would've been 'loaded' into the ambulance at Carolwood, wheeled into UCLA on a stretcher, he would've been 'loaded' into the helicopter, and he then would've been 'loaded' into the Coronor's van.  At least that's the progression of things that we either saw with our own eyes or were told happened (i.e. we didn't see him being loaded into the ambulance at Carolwood...it's assumed but would be a logical assumption if he had really died on June 25th).

If the main point of this level is to 'keep it simple' (as TS advised)...then the ONLY thing that would NEED to be 'different' from the 'no hoax, MJ really died' scenario to the 'hoax, MJ is alive' scenario...is that Mike DID all those things, but he was 'alive' the whole time.  Would it be 'risky'?  Sure.  But faking your death is pretty risky in itself.  Was there a NEED to have MJ under those sheets, in the helicopter, and then in the coroner van?  I'm sure that's debatable.  But maybe MJ 'wanting' to do 'it' all himself, overshadowed any 'need'.

Did any of that make sense?  :lol:  Holy crap...he may have just done it all himself  afraid/....and why not?  If a movie is involved in all this...why wouldn't he play himself in it...dead or alive?    Of course, we may come to find out he didn't lol....but if there's anyone that could pull that off AND who is enough of a prankster to do it...it would be Mike.

With L.O.V.E. always.

Maybe some body swapping was going on between live MJ and a dummy. Places we think it was MJ and places with think were the dummy could be true, maybe this was done to confuse or  because only certain people knew about it...for example MJ could of been on the gurney at UCLA, so those who were not in the hoax thought it was the real thing, because it could of been too risky to use a dummy....then in the helicopter it was a dummy, because now you have less variables (people) around, those people that carried his body in the helicopter could of been in it or not, but it would of also been to risky to use the live MJ (whether the people in the helicopter knew or not, as this was televised live)...I think that's the perfect way..."fool some of the people that time (live MJ) and when you know you can't fool someone else the same way, you fool them another way (dummy)".

[BeTheChange]

@UYI...thanks for posting the vid.  The day Nicole testified was a day that I was able to watch the trial...so I do remember her saying that AND that her phone records 'line up' with her testimony.  My point, though, was 1) how much can we rely on anyone's testimony?, and 2) the phone records 'prove' a call took place between Murray and Alvarez...but there's no way to know where Murray was at the time because he was on a cell (i.e. not a residential #).

Still, I am NOT saying Murray wasn't in the ambulance.  IF an ambulance left Carolwood on June 25th (which I believe it did)...then it makes absolute sense that Murray was in it because we see him at UCLA, supposedly arriving with MJ/the 'body'.  But we can't 'prove' it by pointing to Alvarez's statement nor the phone records.

Hope that makes sense.

About the live MJ/dummy usage...and alternating between the two.  Based on my interpretation of some of TS' posts (can't remember exactly which update but it was about THIS very topic)...I had thought this was the case.  That a real-live MJ AND a dummy were used...at different times.  Now I'm not so sure anymore lol.  I'm sure about a 'live' MJ being used....but now I'm thinking it was for a lot more 'scenes' than I had originally thought.

With L.O.V.E. always.

[Andrea]

Snoopy, I rather like that you arrived on the scene. You're really contributing here, I am glad to have you aboard. Great post. But you forget the third option; dummy/cadaver/Live MJ.

Live MJ solves the problem of storage and disposal (lol). Live MJ can disguise or hide and be ushered out of anywhere in a multitude of ways. He's been doing it his whole life, really. No different on 6/25/09 if he had to find someway to leave undetected by public or paps. Who better then MJ to leave a venue unnoticed?

Live MJ solves the problem of fooling the casual glance. If someone were to catch a glimpse of him on the stretcher; either through the Carrolwood gates or going into the ER at UCLA, it really is MJ on the stretcher so there's no problem. Appearances are kept up. Who's to say at quick glance if he's alive or dead?

Live MJ also solves the basic need for MJ to direct and oversee Day Zero, which is so crucial to the 2+ year long project which was to follow.

Live MJ lets us see him sitting up on the stretcher and sitting up in the helicopter.

Live MJ also completes the story with Van Video and coroner photoshoot in one seamless flow.

Using a Live MJ is the simplest scenario that satisfies all of the hoax needs. Live MJ also allows everyone to say it looked like MJ and it was MJ and they worked on MJ, MJ was laying there, etc. Maybe when they gave him the balloon pump they gave it to him and let him play around with it for awhile (ha). They had a couple of hours to kill.

I agree with whoever said the overhead view changes the appearance of the "body". I'm so sorry I forgot who it was, it was about 2 pages back and they are right. The full sun reflects off the white surface back at the camera lens and the lens would have difficulty resolving the light balance between it and the background. Because the background is prevalent, the camera adapts as best it can and as a result, the white detail is "lost". The same effect occurs on the van, most notably that the white van appears a white blob, with no small detail to the sides/top. Only stark colors stick out against the white background. Now is it the same body that comes off as goes on? I don't know, but I disagree that comparing the two cameras still frames is proof of a switch.

I have seen the dark clothed, presumed, camera man dart into the parking garage behind the coroner van and I agree that this is who, at least is supposed to look like, filmed the van video. Is this scenario the truth? I don't know. I think so, yes, but I'm jumping ahead in levels so I'll stop now and cross that bridge when we get to it.

Bec,

I would 100% agree with you....that is until about 20 minutes ago.

Now I'm a little shaky on the "live MJ" scenario.

The Cadaver/Donnor body theory is out the window for me.

I was debating with PureLove about the body transport to the van. In some instances the body appears "flat", so I reviewed the video taken that day and came across some interesting revelations.

I don't want to prejudice your perspective, so take a look and see what it looks like to you.

The video is looped, but the event occurs at :51, 4:40, 5:40 and 8:17.

Look closely inside the van.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]

I've seen it. I did rewatch it again but I have seen it a thousand times, and I'm probably not kidding. This wasn't missed, the topic of the man lifting the "body" in the coroner's van was tossed around at length in 2009 (no pun intended). Keep watching the tape. He uses both hands and he pics the "body" up with the knot of the sheet. He hefts what appears to be the right amount of weight in making the effort. Watch again, and again, and again. It's  spot on.

I think it's Live MJ. How fun would that be. I have always loved that theory because it's so much incredible fun even though I didn't think it was very realistic (risk), but now that we have seen trial and know that Dr. Cooper is for sure in on the hoax (tells us she worked on a dead body for over 1 hour and called t.o.d. 2:26), I'm totally fine with this theory being The One. It all fits, start to finish, in perfect lateral progression of Day Zero events.

Actually, now that I watch that particular scene again (and again and again and again) it looks like the body shifts itself to help the guy moving his body!  Especially at the 0:53 mark, if you look lower on the sheet, you can SEE someone underneath moving as well, not just the sheet itself.  OMG!!

It's Michael under that sheet, I'm sure of it now.  I always liked the scenario that it was him all the way along but now I'm convinced of it.  Holy cow!!!  This is HUGE for me.

Thank you bec for your insight as it made me watch that part again and see as you do. 

Michael was there every step of the way -  Carolwood, ambulance, hospital, helicopter, coroner van - then we lost track of him after he jumped out and disappeared behind the door....although I know we've seen him since.

Bring on the next level!

[Snoopy71]

I'm still on the fence about the body.


Did they have to be so rough....he's not a piece of meat?! 



I don't like how this looks at all.  

So did he get dressed in the van?

What about the autopsy picture is that him too?

So is it really MJ or a dummy or both?


I'm more confused than ever...

[use_your_illusion]

@bethechange, I agree, that's why this is so hard, what do we have to go on either then lies (needles) buried in a haystack (hoax truths)....lol

[PureLove]

:shock: Oh Holy $@&%!

Okay...I need to see if anyone else sees this....check the video @ 4:40.

The deputy inside the van lifts something....is that what I think it is??


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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvDlZlDUvo[/youtube]

 :shock:  afraid/

This is the first time I saw this! Even if the man was that strong to hold a body with one hand, that would be too disrespectful to behave a corpse like that, no matter who that was. So the body/corpse theory goes with this. The feet part of the body first made me think of a dummy and also how flat it is. Now I'm sure that it wasn't a corpse. Very nice catch Snoopy.  /bravo/

[bec]

I agree, bring on 7c. We did 7a. and 7b. on accident as a result. TS, you told us from the beginning that once one part of the chain was proven, the rest would fall into place like dominoes. How right you were. We did it. How incredible! What a great day!

[Suzy7]

BeTheChange, I agree it would help to know we're on the right track *hint hint*, I can't imagine any other theory right now. It could be the next level is predetermined as you said. As for the body, it could have been live MJ or a dummy; it had to be something given we can see definition in the sheet at a certain angle. So yes, the sheet gives the illusion it's flat from right above, when in fact it's not because when the light hits it differently, we see shadow's; thus creating the body definition.

 From the beginning of the hoax  I assumed it was MJ participating the whole time. Who knows, that's really the illusion of June 25. It could have been both, a dummy and MJ as stated above. When I saw the part of the vid Snoopy pointed out, MJ could have been underneath as it kind of looked like he maybe moved.

 It would make everything much less complicated if it was a live MJ the whole time or again, atleast part.
So at this point we can all atleast rule out another theory? The "cadaver" and/or even just the, "cancer-stricken double who died that day" theories? Lol

 Good idea to whoever thought of finding out the time Murray called the girlfriend that day, to prove the ambulance scenario did play out. If Murray spoke to her around 1 and he was in the ambulance, it took them more than 20/30 mins to arrive at UCLA? Huh? If they reached "MJ's body" in the home at 12:27, why was he still in the ambulance at 1? That's a whole lot of time.