TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[Andrea]

I agree with the no body argument.  A real dead body raises too many legal, ethical, control, timing and isolation issues.  A dead body involves more people because if the point of using a dead body is to trick people to believe they are dealing with Michael Jackson’s body, it won’t work.  It won’t look like him (double or not), a driver’s license is not an acceptable form of ID – there would have been fingerprinting/DNA if there was a real body.  No body on the other hand – yes, the paramedics, doctors, and coroner need to be in on it and produce the falsified documents and accounts of what happened.  But having them in on it insures the script is followed, hence the no fingerprinting and using the driver license to ID the “body”.  As well as the middle name discrepancies on the “legal” documents saying Michael Joseph Jackson is dead.

The ambulance photo was taken the “other day” so that they could get the desired photo as it would be near impossible to get the money shot on the fly despite how slow the ambulance backed out of the driveway.

I really like the idea of Michael being there every step of the way on June 25th.  Literally right there in front of our eyes the whole time.  Maybe he didn’t even leave Los Angeles – if an autopsy report, death certificate, police and ambulance reports, etc can be falsified, then a destination unknown lone flight record can also be faked, especially if there is FBI support in some form.  A hoax of this magnitude needs certain people to pull it off but this hoax has it’s own cast and crew, much like a movie.  Everyone has their confidentiality-contracted job to do.  The ARG aspect absolves them of wrong doing and evolves with the hoax with the world's reactions.  Plus it's obvious to those who are paying close attention.  Which is wicked awesome for us.

[dragonflylilies]

This is my take on the ambulance picture.  I think Ben is in on the hoax.  He would have to be to know to photoshop MJ in the ambulance.  I don't know if anyone has ever asked this before, but when was Farrah Faucett taken to the hospital?  She is a celebrity and lived in the same area as MJ did.  Ben could have been staking out her residence and caught them on camera with her in the ambulance leaving her home.  He then could have had a conversation with MJ about getting the picture of her and MJ could have asked him to play around with the picture and put him in pic instead of Farrah.  Which could have explained the difference of reflections on the ambulance picture and the surroundings at Carolwood.
Moving on to level 7b. I still believe that MJ was helping to take care of one of his impersonaters that had fallen ill and needed round the clock care from some kind of doctor.  Which could explain why he insisted on Murray being his personal physician.  Why would he want a cardiologist, instead of a regular physican to oversee his health?  IMO, he needed Murray because he was friends with him and he knew Murray was in financial strain. He also knew that no other doctor would be willing to put their medical license and possible freedom on the line for MJ.  Which is why MJ wanted to pay Murray so much money.  I do believe that someone did die that day, but it wasnt MJ. It was his impersonator.  The reason why I think that is because of what the EMT's said about the person they saw in the bedroom.  A sick, frailed, old man, balding.  He looked like a cancer patient.  MJ was not sick, not frailed, not old looking and certainly not balding.  MJ is skinny, but not so skinny that he looks like a cancer patient.  Now lets go back to when this all went down.  Murray comes down stairs and tells the cook to get Prince and get Paris!  The kids new that something was happening but not to their daddy.  If it was MJ dying any normal human being would call 911, but they had to wait because MJ needed to get out of the house quickly which is why they waited so long to call 911.  This is when the ambulance comes in.  Ben is called there to get the pic, but Ben already had a pic of MJ that he had photoshopped from Farrah.  Ben is seen snapping the pic but used the photoshop pic instead because it had to be believeable.
So, to summerize.  The ambulance pic was taken at an earlier date from Farrah and photoshopped with MJ.  There was a person in the ambulance on 6/25, but it was not MJ, it was someone him and Murray was helping to take care of.  Murray's behavior in court after reading the verdict just confirms that Michael is alive! 
Sorry so long.

Wow,dragon,this theory is exactly what i was thinking.The sick impersonator would explain why all those drugs were in the house.The oxygen chamber,and why no one was in a hurry to call 911.This patient was expected to die anyway,if he was terminally ill with cancer.This could also explain why no one was allowed in Michael's room.I never considered the idea about Farrah,but it makes a lot of sense.You r definitely right about Murrays behavior after the verdict was read,he did not seem to be concerned at all. I also believe that the corner was in on it.

Let's not forget that when the emt came they said they saw a frail old man.. Michael didn't look frail neither old. So who was it??

[Suzy7]

 To speak on the "real body" theory, if Michael took in a cancer-stricken patient, you are implying that he was insensitive enough to 'pull the plug' at just the right time to fit the hoax numerology. Lol, how rude. :-<
And isn't assisted suicide illegal; especially in a home, with a cardiologist?!
The only reason I can think of that the real body would be needed; is to fool the hospital staff. But then, didn't the hospital staff's doctor, Dr. Cooper, pronounce him offically dead at 2:26? That fits in again, with the numerology.

 The coroner/toxicologist wouldn't need to be fooled, as he/they would be in on it either way; considering the autopsy report isn't even real, and the toxicology results can easily be fabricated.

 Im_convinced, had some good posts in the TIAI Sept. 27 thread, talking about corpses. If a corpse was used, which could be plausible and make things more realistic, it wouldn't change the people who are in the know.

 I do want to add that I did find it interesting that the DA spoke of an 'experiment on people using propofol' in court, and anesthesiology students use cadaver's to practice. Thus, making the cadaver theory a possibility.

[paula-c]

Photo of Murray out of the hospital, ..the June 25?

And all these people where they are?

[bec]

But Purelove you are undecided or I don't understand your point? bec is supporting one thing only, that there was no body - and asks us to collectively accept it.
What scenario do you support ? Sorry but I didn't understand it from your post.

I wrote about different possibilities Gina. I didn't want to go with only one of them. You pick one of them or two. ANY of us can be sure at this point which one is the right. And the answer to your question "How can all the doctors and paramedics be in on the hoax?" is inside the post I made. That's the reason why I asked you to read it.

It was more of a rhetorical question, how can they all be in it? But I really wanted to see how Bec is seeing this because she is very determined about the no body scenario.

We are all speculating here Gina. We're writing down the theories that sounds logical and plausible to us. No one knows the answers except Michael, TS and the ones who are in on the hoax. And I'm not so sure if we are going to learn every detail of this illusion which I doubt highly that we will. But we will go as further as we can and TS is guiding us. I do believe that we should consider all theories instead of focusing only one of them.

And if we come to your question, the FBI involvement explains how all the doctors and paramedics can be in on the hoax but bec doesn't believe the sting operation. So I wonder about her reply as well but probably she will be saying that Michael has friends in high authorities who solved all these problems. I can be wrong tho and she can give another answer.

Because the no body theory lines up perfectly with the movie theory and I've been very vocal about supporting that theory all along and the last couple of months in particular. I think this entire thing is a theatrical production, it's not real, not a lick of it. What we do is the ARG that accompanies it, and much like the NiN Year Zero ARG, we have been invited to play an Alternate Reality Game. That's what ARG stands for, Alternate Reality. So is the alternate reality that MJ isn't dead? No, that's reality. So what's the alternate?

I believe those voicemail tapes about someone trying to "get him" are theatrics, planted for this exact purpose, years later, this ARG and this side aspect of the hoax. I don't believe his vendetta with Sony was part of his reasons to hoax his death. I don't believe anyone was trying to kill him for his catalog, and I do believe he is too smart to get himself in a situation where he is worth more dead then alive to some little entertainment company. In regards to this, I believe the hoaxers are being hoaxed. All the little hints point in that direction. TS says we are being tested. TS says he will support false theories. Front talks about the cube and says it's all about perspective. All the little innuendos and clues and thinly veiled hints and suggestions of an elusive, evasive, intangible, mysterious "they" out to get MJ with FBI involvement is way too much like the plot of Moonwalker to be brushed off as mere coincidence, especially considering the inclusion of Smooth Criminal in that movie, the short film snippet, and the Murray lyric within.

If this is a movie, suddenly, all of this (ambulance pic, outside Carrolwood, @UCLA, paramedics, doctors, coroner being in on it, false documents, memorial, burial, filming, documentaries) is possible without government involvement and it all makes sense. Actors frequently sign non-disclosure agreements while making a movie and getting approval from govt for filming and action sequences happens all the time. Fake documents are used in movies and it's perfectly legal; they are props. There is no reason why all of these people cannot be actors paid to perform a roll. Additionally, not everyone has to know. That coroner assistant doesn't have to know. Neither does the 911 operator who testified. Nor do minor emergency room workers/doctors/nurses. I've said it forever, the same thing, everyone is on a need to know basis. Some will just be following orders and performing everyday tasks. Same as with court. When it comes to who's paying the tab, in particular @Fordtocarr, why do you believe that MJ was "broke" Ask yourself that. Where did you learn that information and that will tell you exactly how accurate it is. In addition, in general, why would anyone expect a director to pay for a film entirely themselves?

I think we should all let go of our preconceived notions about what we think is possible in the course of movie making and realize that we haven't the foggiest of clues as to what is possible if you're Michael Jackson in Hollywood.

[bec]

To speak on the "real body" theory, if Michael took in a cancer-stricken patient, you are implying that he was insensitive enough to 'pull the plug' at just the right time to fit the hoax numerology. Lol, how rude. :-<
And isn't assisted suicide illegal; especially in a home, with a cardiologist?!
The only reason I can think of that the real body would be needed; is to fool the hospital staff. But then, didn't the hospital staff's doctor, Dr. Cooper, pronounce him offically dead at 2:26? That fits in again, with the numerology.

Yes, it is illegal in the state of California to assist a suicide. It is legal to remove a feeding tube in California that results in death, but death from removal of feeding tube can take anywhere from 1 to 5 or more days. Not accurate or reliable for hoax purposes. It's also ethically sketchy as you said.

You made a great point that I forgot about Dr. Cooper calling death at 2:26 for hoax purposes. I want to take that and run with it a minute,

The argument that if the FBI is helping MJ, then using a real body would be legal, is negated by virtue. If the FBI were helping MJ then the doctors wouldn't need to be fooled (by a real body), they would do as they were told to "assist homeland security" or whatever byline they were told. If the FBI were assisting MJ, why would there need to be such an elaborate explanation of ER events such as hours of resuscitation efforts including balloon pump? Why not just have the doc attest that MJ came in DOA, they tried for 15 min to restart his heart, failed, he died, done? If the doc was fooled, why did they work for 2 hours?? That really is just ridiculous, to work on a dead man for 2 hours... he would be decomposing by then. The body would have evacuated the bowels and bladder and rigor would be starting. Think about it. 12:21-2:26=2hrs5min=7, 1+2+2+1+2+2+6=16=7 =HOAX is the purpose of reporting that they worked on him for 2 hours and 5 minutes... it certainly wasn't because it was the truth, and it certainly wasn't because it sounded realistic.

[Adi]

Just a quick thought I had whilst outside gardening which leads from bec's post above....

Judge Pastor deliberately focussed our attention to the date June 9th 2009 when he read out the Jury Forms during the verdict. Remember the Jury had written the incorrect "death" date as June 9th 2009 and crossed it out with "squiggly lines"and then written June 25th 2009. I think he did this for a VERY good reason......to make sure we remembered that significant date again.

As we know June 9th 2009 was when MJ apparently finished filming the "top secret" Dome Project at Culver studios. ...wasn't it suggested ages ago that Dome project stood for Death of Me     :lol: !!!

We know that the scenes for Thriller, Smooth Criminal etc were filmed during the Dome Project. Perhaps as well as these, all the images, footage, photos etc we have seen from his "death" day were actually filmed too, using green screens and sets during this time of the Dome Project and released as needed. I am sure TS talked about this ages ago in another level.

Now how this works in with if an ambulance really went to Carolwood Drive and then to UCLA on June 25th to make the day more "real"and also WHAT/WHO exactly went in the ambulance and how that then ties in with who is in on it and who isn't......well....I have to think more about that whilst ripping up weeds.

[all4loveandbelieve]

I will give it a shot, I may be totally off but I will try. We all heard La Toya saying to watch the Illusionist.. Now in the movie, the illusionist was in love with this woman and he faked her death, he gave her a drug so she seemed clinically dead. When they left to the hidding place the illusionist gave her the antidote to wake her up. Can it be that Michael was in the ambulance clinically dead, he did go to the hospital but in the ambulance they gave him the antidote to wake him up.If you all remember that day there was a fire alarm that was triggered at the hospital, probably he made his escape then and went to the LAX airport which was also closed.  The only thing is that Jermaine slip up stated that he was gone way long to the airport..Coincidences NOT. By the way isn't what they did to Elvis too? Gave him a pill so he could have had a heart attack? This is what Elvis doctor stated. I will stop now it is very late and I am exhausted.. The more I think about it the more I am confused.. So I will give it a rest for tonight and I will think of more clues tomorrow. blessings.

[Aidan_81]

Coroners must be part of it, how else. Real body, fake body or no body,
coroners know for sure.
That's all I know  :lol: Oh, and that helicopter body {out of helicopter} was weird.
Maybe they changed "bodies" inside helicopter. Damn I really don't know  geek/

[dazv555]

hello, i've been here since last year, but never made an account until today...i just want to give an opinion to everything we have shown in the last months, (the conrad murray trial and now this). the only thing that came out of those things was that mj is been portrayed as a sick  drug addict. we all know it is false, but i think it is michael idea to portray him as a weak person,to create an illusion. so when everyone think he was this fragile, drug addict, he'll comeback stronger than ever. he used this illusion quite often, i think he wants to take people by surprise, he wants this awe response, to see the unbelieveable. now regarding murray, he is something i cannot quite understand. we know he was found guilty, and we know/believe mj is alive. in my opinion mj wanted murray to be guilty...why, that's my problem , why  :?:maybe mj found out murray had a hidden agenda j, was really trying to harm mj...or there was  a plan to destroy/get/ mj, but he outhink them and wants everyone involved to pay... i don't know. all i know ther's too many evidence that proves mj did not die, and whatever he reasons were... the truth will prevail... at least i hope

[bec]

I will give it a shot, I may be totally off but I will try. We all heard La Toya saying to watch the Illusionist.. Now in the movie, the illusionist was in love with this woman and he faked her death, he gave her a drug so she seemed clinically dead. When they left to the hidding place the illusionist gave her the antidote to wake her up. Can it be that Michael was in the ambulance clinically dead, he did go to the hospital but in the ambulance they gave him the antidote to wake him up.If you all remember that day there was a fire alarm that was triggered at the hospital, probably he made his escape then and went to the LAX airport which was also closed.  The only thing is that Jermaine slip up stated that he was gone way long to the airport..Coincidences NOT. By the way isn't what they did to Elvis too? Gave him a pill so he could have had a heart attack? This is what Elvis doctor stated. I will stop now it is very late and I am exhausted.. The more I think about it the more I am confused.. So I will give it a rest for tonight and I will think of more clues tomorrow. blessings.

I rejected this theory because if they had used a defibrillator on MJ he could have potentially been killed. Massively risky to "play" dead. As it is, reports were that no defibrillator was used which also supports the no body theory. If the paramedics and/or the ucla docs were fooled by a dead body, what earthly reason did they have for not defib'ing the body?

Cuz you know if that really was MJ on that table they would have shocked the crap outta that corpse before throwing in the towel.

[GINAFELICIA]

the simplicity of doing everything as real as possible

SIMPLICITY - what a wonderful word bow/
..................
Too bad I've lost the ability to think is simple terms now /pull hair/ Everything has to be huge/mysterious/complicated :shock:

And I feel so stupid because I am the only one who doesn't know why we have to believe that infamous ambulance photo was staged in advance

Ginafelicia, please just keep an opened mind.. I have been reading your several post, and this is the last one that broke the camel's back.. Please stop whinning, and just put your head together and think.. I know it is hard, it is hard for me too, I am trying hard to find what happened that day, but I do not whine and be negative. I do not want to harp on you, you are an intelligent young woman you can do it girl, you can do anything you put your mind to.. MJ did it, so can we..

You know I really hate it when people tell me what to do.
If I want to whine I'll whine.
If I want to scream I'll scream.
If I want to be stupid I will be stupid.
Just let me be.
I can't live up to the standards OTHER try to impose me to live up at.
Like Bec said, just let me believe what I want to believe. Just let me go through this hoax in my own way.
I always try to be polite and not respond, but I just can't take it anymore.
When someone has logical arguments I like to listen and learn.
But when I'm just told things like I am a puppet who can be moved around where OTHERS want, like I can't think for myself - it's too much.
And if I want to cry, I'll cry. Officially Mike is missing, this is giving me reasons enough to cry.
End of it.

And for your information I'm keeping a VERY OPEN MIND, I'm sorry you and others can't notice that.
And I don't need OTHERS to tell me what I am or what I am not. Ask my husband :lol:

[bec]

@Gina: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login have at it.

[SimPattyK]

[...]
One of the first things, I believe that had to take place before the 'big day' (that would NOT have been necessary if it was a real emergency) was the staged ambulance photo.  It's been proven it was staged, so I don't think we need to rehash all that.  IMO, this didn't necessarily take place at Carolwood.  TS said it could've been taken indoors, which of course is a possibility (i.e. maybe in the garage at Carolwood?). 
[...]

Thanks for your great post !! From all of it, this passage ^^ stood out to me, especially the garage thing!! it gave me the idea that if they did it in the garage [the pic] "the other ddddday"  :lol: then this would also explain one of the first bizarre things that we couldn't explain in the first place, namely: WHY was the ambulance backing up??? lol Now we know: because maybe it pas parked there in the garage !!! The ambulance didn't come from anywhere! it was there all the time!? Could this be?  :shock:

[SimPattyK]

[...]
The chances of a double dying of a terminal disease in exact accordance with MJs multi-decade numerology hoax plan is a statistical impossibility.
[...]

But WHAT IF the terminal patient didn't died naturally? WHAT IF he wanted an euthanasia and agreed to be euthanized on the date convenient to Michael for the hoax?
Then everything else was staged accordingly...

[...]If someone really died the autopsy would be accurate.

Do we have the guaranty of what the autopsy really looked like? Especially since there were made about 3 autopsies? And no doctor signed any of them? Just LaToya! :lol:

[...]If someone really died, resuscitation attempts would not continue for 2 hours (12:21 911 call-2:26 pronounced). That's nonsense.

Oh no, that's acting. Not nonsense. Do we have the proof that the resuscitation attempts indeed continue for 2 hours? No. We were informed about that and communicated the exact hour. That's all.  So we don't know for sure how long really they resuscitated him...

[...]If someone really died, the ambulance pic would not need to be faked and would not look like MJ from 1987ish.

Why not? He faked the pic on purpose!

[...]If someone really died, it would not appear that MJ himself sat up on the stretcher entering UCLA,

Why not? he could have done it only for the show!

If someone really died, court would have no reason to be faked. [...]

Well yes. If a double died, they needed to make it look like Murray was guilty! Because the guilty verdict is there for a purpose too. So the court & trial were faked for that reason.

[...]If someone really died, why is LaToya dressing the corpse? How is Karen putting makeup on it almost 70 days later?

That is what they said they did. Do you believe them? lol