TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[curls]

Regarding name changes, this from the Wiki article TS linked to and asked us to notice what it says about CA specifically:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_change

"In nearly all states, a person cannot choose a name that is intended to mislead (such as adopting a celebrity's name), that is intentionally confusing, or that incites violence; nor can one adopt, as a name, a racial slur, a threat, or an obscenity."

"In California the "usage method" (changing the name at will under common law) is sufficient to change the name. Not all jurisdictions require that the new name be used exclusively.[10] Any fraudulent use or intent, such as changing the name to the same name as another person's name, may invalidate this type of name change.

Specifically in California, Code of Civil Procedure § 1279.5 and Family Code § 2082 regulate common law and court decreed name changes. Code of Civil Procedure § 1279.5 (a) reads, "Except as provided in subdivision (b), (c), (d), or (e), nothing in this title shall be construed to abrogate the common law right of any person to change his or her name." Subdivisions b through e preclude one from changing their name by common law if they are in state prison, on probation, on parole, or been a convicted sex offender. If a person is not in any of these categories, then a common law name change is allowed. Family Code § 2082 also specifically states, "Nothing in this code shall be construed to abrogate the common law right of any person to change one's name."

So does this mean a DWD patient could call himself Michael Joseph Jackson - or not?  Discuss!

[BeTheChange]

A DWD patient ended their own life and was not the victim of manslaughter,  therefore they are an "alleged victim"of manslaughter. Since there was no manslaughter there also was no date for manslaughter to occur on......therefore it is an "alleged" date.

That is my interpretation of it.

Yes, Adi...that makes perfect sense.  TS had asked us to think of what was alleged and what wasn't.  It makes sense that anything following the charge of manslaughter, which wasn't alleged, would have to be 'alleged' since there was no victim of manslaughter and no manslaughter took place on June 25th.  It also makes perfect sense that if the trial was only for a movie/entertainment purposes, there would've been absolutely no need to include the use of 'alleged' in the verdict.

And I wholeheartedly agree with what you said to Gina about sticking to what she believes (although Gina has always been very good at doing that lol...I've missed you Gina!  :icon_razz:)....regardless of what others think or any poll results.

With L.O.V.E. always.

[GINAFELICIA]

I don't even know what theory you guys support now. I think we should have a poll about it.

I vote for the corpse/ DWD patient theory.

Stay true to whatever it is you as an individual have interpreted the evidence as being. A poll won't make any difference to that. A majority doesn't mean it is true or correct. Use your own brain to choose whatever way you think.

At the end of the day whatever we conclude here either as a group or an individual does not change what went down that day anyway.

I was just curious about what people think. I wouldn't change my opinion because of a poll.
And I believed that theory from the beginning, right or wrong.

[sweetsunsetwithMJ]

It's actually funny to see the progression of things here....human nature at its finest.  People have constantly asked TS to 'help' us figure stuff out, which he has repeatedly done.  So, he helps by giving us supporting evidence in favor of the corpse theory, while showing some points against other theories....ALL of which everyone was free to then research on their own, without taking his word for it.  Reaction:  People don't believe him.

With respect BTC, I'm beginning to think it is not a negative thing. TS encouraged us in the past (can't find the quote) to doubt and not trust him in order to find truth. (not verbatim)

He encouraged this reaction.

Edit: BTC, I saw your comment re: encourage us to doubt him, on top of page 137 after I did this post  :icon_e_wink:

It doesn't matter one bit what our personal views are about a DWD patient having been used....nor does it matter if we believe this is what happened or not.  And that's all that keeps getting posted by those who don't believe TS....page after page of personal opinions and NO solid evidence against anything TS said.

Again, with respect. a) TS can't provide solid proof of body either. b) He precursored it with DA.

Also the disagreement with body theory (speaking for me anyways) has nothing to do with DWD opinion. Its about the doubt that has been created / encouraged by TS combined with no conclusive 'evidence' to eliminate entirely other theories or substantiate his theories. They are all just theories still with no solid evidence. Which I might add, 'evidence' or rather the 'lack of' has been a running theme through this entire hoax.

Moving on to Bec's comment previously that "The purpose isn't to find out what happened". It then makes me wonder if the (TS's) purpose is to simply create a split / multiple groups of people holding to their theories, for the simple reason of a) MJ's delight in us not knowing what really happened. You know, post Bam and all that, and you still have groups of people racking their brains how it was done. b) 'A magician never reveals his tricks' to maintain some mystery about how he did it. (Trademark MJ)

If a corpse, body, dummy, live MJ was used, it is inconsequential to 'how hoaxers feel' ... its all the same goal -  entertainment / Mystery

It seems that the old 'have-everybody-in-on-it' cop out clause has been replaced by an 'it-was-FBI-so-we'll-never-understand' excuse, when facing the unexplainable.[/size] I'm not trying to be awkward here, I really am stuck. I'll shut up now!

@ Curls, agree with you. FBI involvement card is justification for everything / anything as well as a "shut down" for any non-explainables.
I do agree that MJ has friends in high places. The PR photos speak for themselves. Personally I am very iffy on FBI and Obama involvement. (If I am wrong, then so be it)

MJ is the master the driver if you will. He is in control and no doubt we know MJ is ALWAYS the star of the show. It just raised questions for me such as, : If this is for entertainment purposes, Thriller II, greatest show on earth etc, would MJ want to source the assistance of FBI / Obama? Historically, MJ is a one man show. If this was for entertainment purposes, wouldn't Obama involvement for Obama himself be risky (PR wise)?

However IT does sound logical, and IT does sound like MJ to have lots of uncertainty surrounding him all different tangents going off at once to create mystery and secrecy and keep us watching. MJ has never in the past said, oh "I was faking it in the wheel chair" or "Let me explain this publicity stunt" or "Ok, I'll reveal how I manipulated you here" He has always left us guessing.

I think the purpose of the whole dummy / Live MJ / body / FBI / clues and guessing game is to create confusion, uncertainty and preserve mystery. We don't know all of what happenned 25/6 but we do KNOW it is what MJ does. (Confusion / Uncertainty) It's why ppl are still talking about Pepsi incident in 2012. It's why we still talk about the hyperbaric chamber, its why people say he was frail and deathly around TII and yet others say in immaculate health and form.

Deliberate confusion. That is all.

By your words I can decipher that we will never know how this hoax was pulled off, let me tell you that maybe TS told us that FBI 's investigation made him to keep silent in some of the hoax aspects because he simply didn't want to explain us how it was pulled off as well as the rest of the world won't know it either, it's a clever way to say: sorry I can't tell you more about it instead of: sorry I am not gonna tell you more about it because I wanna leave you guessing so it will remains as an undiscovered mystery the same as Pepsi burn.

[Thriller4ever]

I don't even know what theory you guys support now. I think we should have a poll about it.

I vote for the corpse/ DWD patient theory.

Stay true to whatever it is you as an individual have interpreted the evidence as being. A poll won't make any difference to that. A majority doesn't mean it is true or correct. Use your own brain to choose whatever way you think.

At the end of the day whatever we conclude here either as a group or an individual does not change what went down that day anyway.

I was just curious about what people think. I wouldn't change my opinion because of a poll.
And I believed that theory from the beginning, right or wrong.

i think Gina is true, though majority never means it is correct, we could know where we stand. I think there must be some users who don't read all the posts we discuss, but only read TS's. that would not make them aware of the active discussions. We at least need to know whether the whole bunch is moving in one direction...

[sweetsunsetwithMJ]

Hmm, sunset. It's possible. But if that were the case, I wonder why he didn't post it on the thread(s) devoted to the news reports of Joe's stroke? There were many people on those threads wondering if it were true and hoping these were false reports and wishing Mr. Jackson the best just in case. Yet he came to the TIAI thread where we are predominantly tossing around the DWD theory and waiting for TS, who supports the DWD theory, to post the completion of Level 7, to give us a sign that reports of Joe's stroke was BS? Most of us think TS/TS_comments?Front all work for the same team, Front must have known what TS_comments was about to post... so I don't know.

OMG OMG OMG now I actually GET the popcorn pic.... Its all making sense.... TS confirmed wrong theory deliberately! I think you are right Bec...

I was the one who suggested popcorn pic was confirmation Joe was ok, and what the hell would I know?!?! (But no didn't ask for a sign)

P.s Sorry for post bombing this thread peeps. Pls forgive. x

Sorry Bec and Aussi, so you are trying to say that Front's post with himself I mean MJ eating popcorns was due to TS' DWD theory was not true and that's why Michael is smiling about it?  :icon_e_confused:

[bec]

Well I'll say that I do not believe MJ was smiling and eating popcorn over the prospect of a dearly departed DWD patient that he owed the whole success of his hoax to being finally confirmed to us once n for all.

Seems off place and the wrong emotion to convey considering what TS what about to post.

[Jos]

I think the "popcorn"-.gif was a reaction of Front, because we wrote 3 or 4 pages full of comments, that we were so excited for TS' post.
NOT that he was smiling about a (possible) DWD patient.

[paula-c]

There are videos on Youtube with members of Michael's family saying countless times that there was a conspiracy against him, that "they were trying to murder him".

If you don't believe Michael and his family, then WHO do you believe?

Jermaine Jackson talks about a conspiracy regarding Michael Jackson's death

Closed captioning of: La Toya: Dr. Murray is 'fall guy' in Michael's death
we're back at 8:09 with surprising claims being made by michael jackson 's sister la toya . she dedicates a large portion of her new book " starting over " to her brother and his death, including michael 's fear that he would be targeted in an assassination plot. la toya , it's nice to see you again. good morning.

good morning. matt, how you this morning.

i'm doing well. thank you. you know now that this book is coming out a lot of people will be talking about what's in it.

sure.

you wrote, michael who confided in me years earlier that he feared assassination by those who wanted to steal his valuable publishing catalog and estate. you quote michael as saying, i'm even afraid to walk around in my own yard because i'm afraid they're going to kill me. i could never perform again because i know they're going to kill me. do you know who he's referring to?

yes, he told me exactly who he was referring to. he was terrified. he was terrified of the fact that he had this catalog and he knew they wanted it. that catalog.

catalog of music.

his publishing which he owned over -- i think it was 750,000 songs just alone. so he owned everybody's publishing --

who did he think wanted to kill him to gain control of that catalog?

women, everybody that surrounded that, that was involved in that. and he would speak about it. and he was very afraid. he said it was just a matter of time. he knew it was going to happen. when he first told me i was, michael , come on that can't be true. i didn't truly understand it in the beginning. but the more he explained it, the more i understood. not only did he tell me. he told my mother as well.

one of the things that struck me. he said he was afraid to even perform yet we know at the time of his death he was rehearsing for a major tour over seas.

that's right.

what was the problem? he apparently had lost that fear.

no, what it was, he was in a catch-22 where he knew that he had to perform and he had the perform ten dates because he was given so much. okay. i'll do this and only this. only the ten dates and that's it.

so all the attention being paid to dr. conrad murray for the death of michael , you say he is the fall guy for a much larger plot. you write, quote, i decided to investigate michael 's death and go public with what i found with the hope of getting justice for michael by identifying those who really killed him. and yet in the book, la toya , i couldn't find anywhere where you actually named someone or give proof of anyone actually killing michael .

but when you read the book and you read between the lines and you understand, you will know what exactly michael led you to that, to what was going to happen.

lead me to it.

when you read the book you understand it completely. once you read it, you will understand it. and i have to say that i was not there when he was actually murdered. however --

but you do believe that it was not dr. conrad murray responsible for his death that someone actually murdered your brother?

i believe that dr. murray was definitely the fall guy . i think that they need to invest gate this a bit more. go deeper into it.

this idea of yours, and this belief of yours, has put you at odds with other family members.

not at odds.

you write in the book how the family always came together, for example, at the trial of michael .

of course.

-- earlier in 2003 . but they're in the on page you in this.

in the beginning they were, oh, no, he's passed, let him lie to rest. you can't not let that be because his children thanks need to know what happened, they want to know what happened to their father. they were there. they understand.

have you gone to the police now with information that you have uncovered in your own investigation? are they now looking in a different area?

in the beginning i was with the detectives right there with them and i wanted the surveillance camera , i want to no everything and everyone who came in and out of that house. all of a sudden that's eradicate eradicat eradicated. they erase it but just the first three or four minutes there.

on the subject of the trial of the situation the brother found himself in on two separate occasions with accusations of molestation. you held a news conference, i think it was in tel aviv in 1993 , and you said pretty important things. quote, i can no longer be a silent collaborator of these crimes against small innocent children.

absolutely.

you now say that you were forced to say that by your former husband jack gordon . how could he force you to say something so damning about your brother?

matt, when you're in a relationship when you're being abused and very controlling, he controlled everything i did, everything that went on in my life. he was working with a group of people that were working with my brother at the time, which, in fact, i didn't know. i wasn't privy to that. i wasn't privy to watch television. i knew nothing that was going on. when i went on television and said my brother was wonderful, he would never do anything like that. he hated that. the next day, you get on. went to tel aviv . he said i was going on vacation. i thought there was an award show. we drove up, all those cameras and people there. i didn't know.

you had a complete change of heart in terms of your brother's situation with molestation.

never had a change of heart . i always knew he never did that. and that's one thing that michael and i discussed and talk about because i had to speak to him about that. he said, la toya , you don't have to mention that. i know you. i know your heart i know he was making you do this. michael knew more than i thought. he would call me and tell me to get away from him. gordon is going to murder you. what i would want to say he would tell me if i didn't do what we he wanted me to do or say he was going to kill michael .

you have also made comments about your father joe molesting you and other forms of child abuse . now you say no other man alive or dead did anything like joseph did for his family and i thank him for that.

i do.

is this a contradiction?

no, it is not. my father did a wonderful job of raising all of us. i have to tell you that when you're young, you see things differently than when you get older. when you get older and you have children and your nieces and nephews, you understand why your father disciplined you the way he did. parents beat their children back then. they don't do that today. if you do it today, you're going to jail.

but you stand by the comments you made about molestation and child abuse ?

my father is a very wonderful man, matt. i have to tell you something. my father is getting older. i love him with all my heart. michael loved my father at the end of the day . people are showing footage of michael speaking at my father the way he thought many years ago. at the end of michael 's life he called my father several times, wanted him there. he even told his children, call grandpa, he will help me get out of this situation.

you're standing by your original statements about your dad?

my father is a wonderful person and always will be. he has a great heart and, yes, i do love him and care for him a great deal.

la toya jackson , appreciate it.
.

[Australian MJ BeLIEver]

I now take it as he was eating popcorn about to watch the show (the dwd bomb that TS was abt to drop) knowing it would cause the reaction it did.

My comment that you quoted was more that I now think it wasn't re:joe and more about the content that TS was abt to post. Not the actual person who dwd. The fact it was going to be entertaining to watch the crap fest following.

What would I know. Probably wrong :)

[Australian MJ BeLIEver]

By your words I can decipher that we will never know how this hoax was pulled off, let me tell you that maybe TS told us that FBI 's investigation made him to keep silent in some of the hoax aspects because he simply didn't want to explain us how it was pulled off as well as the rest of the world won't know it either, it's a clever way to say: sorry I can't tell you more about it instead of: sorry I am not gonna tell you more about it because I wanna leave you guessing so it will remains as an undiscovered mystery the same as Pepsi burn.

Agree with you. However on the same token I need to (TS) educate myself more abt FBI involvement. (Which I plan to re-look at)

But it is a great way to shut things down

On another note I am just grateful to be here watching / participating in this live. How lucky are we gonna feel post bam. Best opportunity ever. One in a million even if my beliefs and theories that I choose are wrong. It's just so special to be here engaging in this interaction. It's a special piece of MJ history I tell ya!

:michael-jackson:

[bec]

I want to ask again, is there anyone who supports the FBI involvement theory who can list 12 reasons/evidences for the theory?

I'm stuck on #1. 333 pages in 7 files released by FBI on 12/21/09. And that's where the list runs dry for me. Anyone want to help?

[sweetsunsetwithMJ]

I think the "popcorn"-.gif was a reaction of Front, because we wrote 3 or 4 pages full of comments, that we were so excited for TS' post.
NOT that he was smiling about a (possible) DWD patient.

Jos we are trying to explain that MJ was not smiling because a DWD patient was used but the possibility of that a DWD patient was never used but TS made us think that DWD patient could have being used, do you get it?. I know I am using a game of words, sorry for that  :icon_rolleyes:

[sweetsunsetwithMJ]

Was the DWD patient's name "Michael Joseph Jackson"?? or did he change it to that for the hoax??  :suspect:

He changed it for the hoax and because this patient was a terminally ill person and he would probably be very skinny that's why Michael lost weight to perform in TII, so they changed their roles, the patient took Michael's artistic name and Michael took the DWD patient's weight.  :confused: :icon_question: :icon_e_confused: :icon_rolleyes: MAYBE?!?!?!?!?!?! If DWD theory is true.

[BeTheChange]

There was an entire level dedicated to FBI involvement and also one devoted to hoax vs. sting court.  Anyone is free to take a look back at the MANY posts by MANY members who either supported the theories or rejected them...it's all there for anyone interested.  There's been so many contributions by so many members here that keep getting ignored/overlooked (at best)....intentionally belittled with veiled insults (at worst)...that have addressed these very points.  And not just since TS' 'reappearance' a few weeks ago....in fact, the bulk of all these discussions took place years ago and culminated within the levels.  TS provided 12 points in support of the DWD theory...addressing many of the objections...but the same objections keep being brought up.  So what's the point?  Again, for anyone genuinely interested in gaining a better understanding or different perspective...the forum is FULL of resources.

These repeated insinuations that 'people suddenly started believing/supporting the corpse theory' or that 'TS just started supporting the corpse theory' or 'dropped the DWD bomb'...are not only flat-out false (anyone who's been here awhile knows this) but they are also bordering on offensive because the underlining insinuation is that ONLY those NOT supporting the corpse theory have thought for themselves.  The members of this forum---both past and present---deserve much more respect than they are being shown.  Not to mention the fact that REGARDLESS of what happened on June 25th, making light of ANY DWD patient's death or the circumstances surrounding their death and/or choices....is offensive and lacks tact and class.

End of rant...

With L.O.V.E. always.