TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[jono]

"Finally, just like last time, I may play "DA" (devil's advocate)—and try to debunk things that are true, just to keep you on your toes!"
{http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,18185.msg311334.html#msg311334}

Love to bec, and everyone else!

:bearhug:    :bearhug:    :bearhug:

P.S. @Front: what grade do I get?  An "A", an "F", or an "N"??

:icon_lol:   :icon_lol:

I'm thinking "hmmmm" here...   :animal0017:

TS, you're a sneaky one!

:bearhug:

PS. Am I the only one still thinking "dummy"?  :icon_lol:

[sandythyme]

My mind is cluttered with life!  I have to calm down and take all of this in!  WOW!  I feel very nervous, I can tell I am not going to  get anything done today!  Thanks TS, Front and everyone else, this is definitely the greatest show on earth!  :bearhug:

[use_your_illusion]

Does everyone on here believe in the DWD theory? I think it STILL can go either way...

...I mean some points for Live MJ and some points for the DWD can be used for the opposite theory. But what I still do not see is how the patient would get into the house undetected, I mean Live MJ guarantees that there is no need for a risk in bringing this patient in. What if the patient chose to back out at the VERY LAST MINUTE while he was in the house? Yeah maybe a second person would do it, but then you'd still need to get  the first patient out of the house without arousing suspicion.

[SimPattyK]

Ok I'm glad I decided to finally go to sleep last night!! As TS posted only 6 hours later,
at 10 a.m. in the morning (Romanian time)...if that was 12 a.m. in California...
So there's a 10 hours difference!!  :icon_eek: IDK why I thought it was only a 7 or 8 hours!!

I was amazed and confused at the same time while reading TS posts! there are things that I can finally and completely understand now , but still many things that I don't understand or that still get me scratching my head  :Pulling_hair:

If the patient was already planning to take the medication, days or weeks earlier—and the FBI convinced him to wait until arriving at Carolwood—it is likely that he would voluntarily choose to take his medication, shortly after arriving (and the exact time of death is unknown, remember?).
In this case, they would not be encouraging suicide; if anything, they would be encouraging him to delay suicide (and therefore they helped him to extend his life).

Brilliant!! just freakin' genius!!

However, in some case, it's true that I actually do not know for sure what happened; I said very early, that I don't know everything about the hoax.  And in this case, I do not know exactly what the FBI agents told the DWD patient—nor does MJ himself know, for that matter.  And most likely, the FBI is not going to disclose those kind of details to anyone.

WoW! Perfect cover up! I've never thought before of this possibility of Michael not knowing entirely everything about how the sting (hoax) was done!! very interesting perspective of FBI being the only part involved that knows everything! and that probably will remain that way forever! We might probably die and still won't find out how they pulled off this giant hoax!

Question #1: Is he in violation of WA law, merely because he is not located in WA State when ingesting the medication?
Answer #1: The answer is once meds are obtained it does not matter where they are taken.

Just perfect!

However, if they were performing a serious sting operation for real criminal investigation, then CA courts would have little if any power to enforce CA state law on them.
Therefore, understanding Level 7 makes it very clear that there is real criminal sting, and not merely the FBI helping MJ to produce an artistic sting.  Does anyone remember me saying something like this before?

Amazing plan! :icon_albino: Yes I remember!

12 Reasons Against Dead Body Theory

#4.  With a DWD patient, you don't need to store a corpse until go time (see also answer to #15, below).
#6.  Rigor mortis could also occur if the real MJ died that day—so whether a DWD patient, or the real MJ, this poses no problem even if none of the paramedics were in on the hoax.

#7. It was reported that the body was ID'ed from MJ's driver's license at the hospital. Neither a DWD patient nor a random corpse could be ID'ed as MJ from a pic of MJ.

#7.  Agree.  However, this same problem exists with either a dummy or live MJ.  Somebody in the hoax is the only solution, then, for body identification.
---> I didn't quite get that!?

#8.  There were two different deaths: the DWD patient (real death), and real MJ (fake death).  The DWD patient was not a celebrity, so his real death would not be a "high profile" death—and therefore no need for UCLA to make any public statement about it.  The real MJ would be "high profile"; but UCLA did not announce it, because it was not a real death.

#9.  This is about the same as the last one.  Two deaths means two death certificates: one real DC (which we never saw), and one fake DC (not signed by the doctors in the hoax, because it was not a real death).

#11.  As already discussed in previous levels, a sting incorporates deceptive elements (along with factors to avoid entrapment).  Furthermore, the dummy theory would also have deceptive elements, as well as the live MJ theory.  However, the DWD patient provides the least deception, and the most realism and honesty—at least for the paramedics and doctors who testified.  Some of those in on it, even knowing that it was a sting, may have been reluctant or even refused to testify lies at the trial.  Providing a real patient, going through all the real steps in the process, and even giving the real name of Michael JOSEPH Jackson—these things would allow honest testimonies, with a straight face. See the following article on name changes, notice especially CA law. {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_change}

#15. People often agree to be organ donors.  While still alive, a DWD patient can give consent for his body to be used for artistic, medical, scientific, and/or other purposes, etc.

12 Reasons Supporting Live MJ Theory

#2.  Direction could also be run on the scene by the FBI.  In fact, 6-25-09 was the day that FBI had primary say over how things would be run; MJ picked the day, and time, and most of the rest was arranged by the FBI.
The memorial (7-7-09) and burial (8-3-09) were events that MJ was the primary director (these were also the events with the Liberian Girl pictures).  And even on 6-25-09, MJ could give remote directions, if needed, via encrypted e-mail {www.hushmail.com}.
---> OK, so that's clear now: FBI conducted mainly what happened on June 25th, with MJ only having certain part in it. And the rest of the major hoax-events were directed by MJ mainly. FBI being majorly involved in the events of June 25th, finally explains to me why it's still so difficult to understand everything that happened "that day" !! I am 90% sure now that we will never know all the answers! part of that info will remain classified!

#6.  Most of us have already agreed that the ambo pic was staged in advance, and edited with a little Photoshop help; so gurney and autopsy pics could also be staged in advance, and edited, without much if any more risk than the staged ambo pic.

#8. Allows validation of the official story should anyone not in on the hoax happen to catch a quick glimpse of the stretcher going by at any point along the way, they would really see MJ.

#8.  Someone did catch a quick glimpse of the stretcher (Sharon), and she reported that it did NOT look like MJ, yet the hoax was not ruined.
---> ROFL :thjajaja121:

#9.  Yes, but which unforeseen circumstances carry the most risk?  A live and healthy MJ, who can't play dead for too long?  A dummy, that would certainly look like MJ, and do a great job of playing dead (but would be disastrous if discovered by any unforeseen paramedics, doctors, or nurses)?  Or a real dead patient, who fit all the criteria of the official story (other than facial features—which were thoroughly covered and disguised, with various medical paraphernalia, etc)?  And worst case, this last option could be dismissed as a distraction or decoy if needed; but live MJ or dummy would be very difficult to explain as a decoy or distraction.
---> Perfect! PURRRFECT!! Genius!! freakin' GENIUS!! :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce: :icon_bounce:

#12. Gives the official story a consistently interwoven element of truth; MJ really was attended by paramedics at Carrolwood, MJ really did go to UCLA, MJ really did get transported via helicopter, MJ really did go to the coroner's office.

#12.  The same could be said if the DWD patient was named "Michael JOSEPH Jackson" (see #11 in the previous post, 12 Reasons Against Dead Body Theory).  In fact, this would give the story even more elements of truth: such as MJ really died, etc.
----> I LOVE this hoax! :woohoo2:

#13. Explains why MJ's kids stopped crying when they were done seeing their dad's body, the scene as described by LaToya. They stopped crying because they saw Dad's not dead.

#13.  This is a very interesting point.  It indicates that the children were not initially in on the hoax, and therefore would react with real emotions—which would be very convincing for anyone at the house, and at UCLA, etc.  This also explains why La Toya said MJ told Paris, on 6-24-09, what to do if he died; there would be no point in MJ saying this, if Paris already knew about the hoax for the next day.  Both La Toya and Katherine said that the children never cried again, after seeing MJ in the hospital (so much for Paris crying on stage at the memorial); so this would be when they were informed of the hoax.  And seeing MJ alive at UCLA would certainly stop their tears; but there is another possibility which would also stop their tears: seeing that it was a different MJ who died (as well as family members explaining the hoax to them, at that point).  Oh, and one last thing here: if live MJ was on the bed at Carolwood (playing sick), or even a dummy, why did Alvarez rush the children back out of the bedroom almost before they finished entering it—what were they NOT supposed to see up close?
---> This is the answer that I most expected!! great explanation! OMG!!

#14. Explains Jermaine's "slip up" airport comment. Jermaine said MJ wasn't "with us long before he went to the airport... I mean hospital." ... which is 100% accurate. Just like Jermaine said. He said he meant hospital, and if we can't trust Jermaine's word as a true clue, what CAN we trust?

#14.  As I've said already: we should take things at face value, unless there are strong reasons to believe otherwise.  Even the media reports of MJ's death—we only reject these things because of overwhelming evidence of the hoax.  As far as Jermaine's comment: for the public, taking it at face value means that MJ went to UCLA and not the airport (and the word "airport" was merely a blundering goof); and we should also accept this conclusion, if there were no strong evidences of the hoax.  For us, however, since we already knew about the hoax long before this statement: taking it at face value means that MJ went to the airport, and not UCLA (and the word "hospital" was used, because the interviewer asked what he meant, and he could not say the truth, that MJ flew away into hiding, without ruining the hoax).  Speaking of flying away, some even suggested that MJ went to the airport, but did not get on a plane, merely because Jermaine only said "airport".  However, people don't usually go to the airport to buy shoestrings.  And Jermaine could not get away with saying: "... long before he went to the airport, and hopped on a plane, and flew to --- oooppss, I mean hospital!"  That just would not "fly", as an accidental goof.  So Jermaine could only insert one clue word, and then he went back to the official version.  And if that word was a clue, then we should asses the purpose and meaning of the clue.  How many misleading clues have we received, from the Jackson family?  Are there any, other than Joe's allegedly false clue about doubles (and in fact doubles is a topic of wide disagreement, even among hoax believers)?
----> hummm... I don't quite get this paragraph in its entirety... I'll have to think more about this...

:suspect: :animal0017:

12 Evidences for DWD

Now for a dozen evidences in support of the DWD theory.  This is merely a review, so I won't be repeating much of the details (they can be found in previous posts by me and/or others).  And please pay attention to the difference between the reasons for the FBI choosing to use a DWD patient (which we may not fully understand), and the evidences that a real DWD patient was actually used (which we should all be able to understand).

#11 Sharon said that the body on the stretcher was too short for MJ.  A dummy would be made to match the size of MJ, and would not be too short; and live MJ certainly would not be too short.  We can try to minimize this evidence, by saying that Sharon did not have a good perspective of the patient on the stretcher, or Sharon is not a reliable witness, or whatever.  However, with the DWD theory, you don't have to come up with any such explanations—you can simply take it at face value, the patient looked shorter than Michael because the patient WAS shorter than Michael.  Simple.

Apart from what I quoted here above^^.... I didn't understand anything of this 3rd set of answers

We may not be able to positively verify all 12 of these points (such as the towel on the face); however, as I said already, we should take things at "face" value—unless there is good evidence that someone is lying.  And in this case, all 12 evidences support the same simple conclusion; no need for any fancy back-flips, or complicated explanations. {see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor}

I am not listing the following as one of the twelve evidences, but La Toya did give a very clear clue less than ten minutes after TS first posted the DWD evidence: "What is everyone doing with the left overs?" {https://twitter.com/latoyajackson/status/272069763553964033}

Even if I don't understand most of this whole "June 25th"-thing  :suspect: :animal0017: , I believe in the hoax and the "holy BAM" more than ever!  :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

And clear back in March of 2010 (Update #4), TS said: "... Or there was a real human corpse, which had recently died."  Notice that I did not mention a corpse in cold storage for a long time; and DWD fits exactly with a patient who had "recently died."
If all of this is merely the result of MJ trying to create an illusion, that it was a DWD patient—when in reality it was a dummy or live MJ—what would be the purpose?   Can someone with an active imagination come up with a far-fetched explanation, for this slight possibility?  No doubt. 

I can't find any logical nor "imaginary" reasons of why would TS/Front/MJ try to fool us into believing in a DWD illusion. From what I could grasp of this whole stuff , I think/believe that the DWD-version is much more plausible and logical than the other ones: dummy or live MJ - theories.

[Andrea]

Thanks TS for your well-thought out posts.  I need more time to reflect on them and read again.  I did notice that some of your points were, for lack of a better word, assumptions that we have no way of verifying.  Like, the DWD patient changing his name to Michael Joseph Jackson (which I've considered before) and a 2nd DC and autopsy report for a real patient.  There were also some objections that I had before that I don't feel were addressed but I won't bother you with them again because you would've replied before if you'd felt a need to.

But there is a lot in your posts that do make a lot of sense and explains things in ways I hadn't considered before.  It's only right that I give your reasons some serious consideration and I definitely will.

[paula-c]

Thanks TS for your well-thought out posts.  I need more time to reflect on them and read again.  I did notice that some of your points were, for lack of a better word, assumptions that we have no way of verifying.  Like, the DWD patient changing his name to Michael Joseph Jackson (which I've considered before) and a 2nd DC and autopsy report for a real patient.  There were also some objections that I had before that I don't feel were addressed but I won't bother you with them again because you would've replied before if you'd felt a need to.

But there is a lot in your posts that do make a lot of sense and explains things in ways I hadn't considered before.  It's only right that I give your reasons some serious consideration and I definitely will.

Why in the last few days i read again the autopsy report, purpose of the autopsy is to answer questions about the person's illness or the cause of death and its identity, this report was shouting to all that the person who died was not MJ, many fans did not listen

[Thriller4ever]

#14. Explains Jermaine's "slip up" airport comment. Jermaine said MJ wasn't "with us long before he went to the airport... I mean hospital." ... which is 100% accurate. Just like Jermaine said. He said he meant hospital, and if we can't trust Jermaine's word as a true clue, what CAN we trust?

#14.  As I've said already: we should take things at face value, unless there are strong reasons to believe otherwise.  Even the media reports of MJ's death—we only reject these things because of overwhelming evidence of the hoax.  As far as Jermaine's comment: for the public, taking it at face value means that MJ went to UCLA and not the airport (and the word "airport" was merely a blundering goof); and we should also accept this conclusion, if there were no strong evidences of the hoax.  For us, however, since we already knew about the hoax long before this statement: taking it at face value means that MJ went to the airport, and not UCLA (and the word "hospital" was used, because the interviewer asked what he meant, and he could not say the truth, that MJ flew away into hiding, without ruining the hoax).  Speaking of flying away, some even suggested that MJ went to the airport, but did not get on a plane, merely because Jermaine only said "airport".  However, people don't usually go to the airport to buy shoestrings.  And Jermaine could not get away with saying: "... long before he went to the airport, and hopped on a plane, and flew to --- oooppss, I mean hospital!"  That just would not "fly", as an accidental goof.  So Jermaine could only insert one clue word, and then he went back to the official version.  And if that word was a clue, then we should asses the purpose and meaning of the clue.  How many misleading clues have we received, from the Jackson family?  Are there any, other than Joe's allegedly false clue about doubles (and in fact doubles is a topic of wide disagreement, even among hoax believers)?
----> hummm... I don't quite get this paragraph in its entirety... I'll have to think more about this...

TS is talking about taking things at face value, unless we have solid evidence to prove against it. The world believes Michael is dead because the media said so. They took it at 'face value'. While we have a LOT of evidence to say he is alive. we know that for sure.

When Jermaine says 'airport, I mean...hospital', the public( which thinks MJ is dead) believes that MJ went to the hospital (that's face value for them)

But for us believers (since we know he is alive!) face value for us would mean 'MJ went to the airport' because this statement by Jermaine would be a clue for us...

I hope I was clear in my explanation...LOL, and correct me if I've misunderstood TS's post...

[iamamjbeliever]

What does DWD mean?

[hesouttamylife]

 :beerchug: "It's after midnight, & something evil's lurking in the dark"  Happy 30th Anniversary Thriller  :multiplespotting:

Got to catch up on what I missed after midnight  :icon_e_biggrin:  From the little I've read thus far, TS - great job!

[Thriller4ever]

What does DWD mean?

http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429827.html#msg429827

please make sure u are on the same page... L.O.V.E.!

[Jos]

@ Iamamjbeliever: Death With Dignity

[SimPattyK]

@MJ: nice to see you post in this thread!

say WHAAAT!??  1st Front post in TS-thread!  :affraid: and 1st reference by TS to Front as MJ !?? :affraid:
Lord have mercy!!  :bowdown:
Now THAT ^^ definitely makes it a mini-BAM !!! WHOOOOOOAAAOOOW

P.S. @Front: what grade do I get?  An "A", an "F", or an "N"?? :icon_lol:   :icon_lol:

TS do you really enjoy talking to yourself?
Or is this the moMment when we are supposed to have the confirmation that you guys are indeed 2 distinct persons?  :affraid:

I don't believe this!  :icon_geek: I need more proof than just that!
Until then .... Front & TS = MJ  :michael-jackson: at least in MY opinion!  :icon_lol:

For you, @TS :icon_geek: :icon_lol:

[curls]

Firstly, thanks @TS for posting when you said you would. You will have gathered we were kinda 'expectant' here!!

I have to go back and re-read several times but a general overview is as if we have 2 totally separate things going on here: a real person dying, going to UCLA, being pronounced dead, given a death certificate and autopsy (happens all the time, every day, doesn't make the news)  and Jermaine announcing MJ had died, and somehow the two stories end up getting merged together.

Without wishing to sound flippant this really reminds me of the Thriller video where the action morphs from real-life, to horror, to movie, back to supposed real-life, more horror and ending with a final shock!

Also as I have at times suspected, it would now appear TS doesn't know everything and therefore maybe we really have been helping him to work it out!  And emphasis on significant involvement of the FBI, and consequent lack of disclosure of ALL the info, conveniently leaves the main question I have unanswered, i.e. WHY?

And then...... TS has to go and end by saying he may play DA - thereby covering his ass yet again!!

Back to reading .... and digesting.

[iamamjbeliever]

What does DWD mean?

http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,21319.msg429827.html#msg429827

please make sure u are on the same page... L.O.V.E.!

thnx

[sweetsunsetwithMJ]

Wait but.

He didn't say eat in this thread he said post.

So alright then. I agree, it's nice to see MJ post in this thread. What do you think of my lists, MJ?

Yes Bec yes if TS said to @MJ nice to see POST in this tread that means that FRONT = MJ    I knew it from the start  :woohoo2: :icon_bounce: :michael-jackson: :moonwalk_: :michael_jackson-1135: