TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[Andrea]

This was my "eureka!" moment.  Just over 2 weeks ago I saw that video footage.  Now you can't see that video anymore.  How long do you think that particular video has been around for, 2+ years would be a reasonable guess.  Coincidence?I like the Live MJ best, it seems to fit all the parameters in my eyes.  If it must be debunked, then please explain why, for all of the points suggesting that it was actually Michael that day.

Here is the vid...it's still there just prob not under that account anymore:

With L.O.V.E. always.

Lol, ok.  But still, that particular video that was on THIS THREAD is the one that stopped working.

Oh, and it's not the same video although it has some of the same footage.

[all4loveandbelieve]

I'm gonna go one further. The "missing" security footage. If there's a dead body laying there, or a life like dummy, and all the events proceeded just as they tell it why no security footage? Where'd it go? It being "missing" indicates there was something on that footage that no one was allowed to see, necessitating it's destruction. Would this footage existing not enhance the illusion of a death hoax? Dramatic footage released of Michael's last minutes attended by Murray in the bed, cut to scene of Paramedics rushing in, cut to scene of stretcher being carried out... wonderful stuff to convince the world AND The Illuminati that MJ was deader then a doornail. Surely at least they would have footage of MJ coming home the night before. But no. Nothing.

As it is, the "missing" footage arouses curiosity, which can quickly turn into suspicion, and not just by hoaxers. It's a rabbit trail that to anyone SUSPECTING that MJ might try to fake his death to escape them (Illuminati) would latch onto and investigate to death before being satisfied of actual death.

But whatever. What is a strong point? Because I think this theory is full of them. Others think TS's Illuminati theory has strong points and I'm off my tree. This whole thing is turning into my opinion against your opinion (collective).

PureLove, you posted while I was finishing this post:

We don't KNOW that the staff left the house before the ambulance did, that's just what we were told.

Does any part of this death hoax sound logical? Frankly, the only thing that sounds logical to me is that MJ hoaxed his death as a giant piece of performance art as a major comeback, because he can, and to show off for his kids. His art is his life so there is no "just" or trivial aspect to what I envision at all.

What is logical? Something with precedent. There is no precedent for this.

If Michael faked his death due to the Illuminati, don't you think they could read everything we are posting in this forum? I am just wondering what would happen if they would..

[paula-c]

I think that all this news had a reason

Michael Jackson's Body -- Hold the Plastic

While it may seem like the kind of thing Michael Jackson would do, reports that the late singer made plans to have himself "plastinated" and put on display are exaggerated.

The director of publicity for Dr. Gunther von Hagens tells TMZ someone claiming to be from Jackson's management team did contact BODY WORLDS several months ago about Jackson's interest in being preserved in plastic.

But, she says, "We can further confirm that Mr. Jackson is not now a registered body donor in the Institute for Plastination's Body Donation Program."
http://www.tmz.com/2009/06/27/michael-jacksons-body-hold-the-plastic/#.TtQ-UWVCgnI

[Grace]

Excellent reminder, Paula.

Body Worlds 2 & The Brain – Our Three Pound Gem (concerning the brain and nervous system) opened in 2005 at the California Science Center in Los Angeles.

Body Worlds 3 & The Story of the Heart (concerning the cardiovascular system) opened on February 25, 2006, at the Houston Museum of Natural Science.

The exhibit states that its purpose and mission is the education of laymen about the human body, leading to better health awareness.All the human plastinates are from people who donated their bodies for plastination via a body donation program.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Worlds

This could be another source for the "corpse theory".
As to the "threat theory": the world is ruled by fear.

[mjj4ever777]

That's the point, isn't it Andrea, all the points suggesting that it WAS MJ himself. At face value, this is exactly what happened, you look at each stage of the game and all signs point to Live MJ. Then you add fear and doubt and risk and worry and suddenly you need a 54 page elaborate discussion of "what really happened".

So all the information suggests it is Live MJ and the sole reason this cannot be is conjecture??? Not debunked.

I LOVE the way you "think" BEC!

I know I haven't been contributing to this thread much, but I LOVE sitting back watching. Keep up the great work family! I have a "feeling" that Michael is going to need us to put our "investigative" skills to use again, in the very near future.

I know that many of you are confused and frustrated, but please know that everything will make sense when all is revealed. There is so much more to come. The "hoax" is just one of the many "Life Lessons" to be learned on this "adventure". The "Hoax" will be a Global wake up call, and from there, the "lessons" will keep coming. People's "perception" of what they have Believed in all of their lives ,is about to be ROCKED to it's core! In the end it will be up to "US", to look at the world and our own Lives, with a whole new perspective. This is all about discovering who "we" really are, and about "Making a change" and living our lives with LOVE, Freedom and Unity! LOVE is Important...LOVE is the answer!

Remember..."This Is It, but it isn't IT" and  "This isn't the End...It's just the Beginning"!

Keep the Faith my Beautiful Family! Michael LOVES each and every one of us, enough so, that he "Died" to save our Lives!

I LOVE You guys and I appreciate all of your hard work!
Blessings LOVE and LIGHT!

TS...I LOVE YOU!!, Thank You for all that you do for us!
bearhug

[Suzy7]

 Why are people thinking TS is supporting a possibly "false theory", and trying to mislead people? When has he done this? Never to my knowledge. If he is supporting a false theory,  he says so, and by it being called a "false theory" it tells us that it is false and will never be true; but he is just taking on all perspectives.
We are at a crucial point in this hoax and to mislead seems like a huge waste of time, TS' time and ours, nor is it teaching anyone anything.

It also appears that people are holding on to their theories for dear life; whilst ignoring TS' posts which include evidence to back up the information. The "Live MJ" theory is exciting sure, but there is no EVIDENCE showing he was there or why. Wanting to believe it is not enough.
Also, the reason the Illuminat/NWO threat to MJ matches with his work, (i.e. Smooth Criminal/Black or White/TDRCAU) is because he was trying to get this true message across. There really is no reason this threat should be debated considering we have MJ and his family telling us over a course of years, about this conspiracy against him and artist's in general. Therefore, it is not "if" but "is", because it did and does exist. That is really what TS was trying to say, in my opinion.

Smooth Criminal was about the Illuminati/NWO etc, blinding the public's eye from the truth, hence MJ blowing dust into the camera, saying they've been "got" by a smooth criminal. Also, it shows them against him, and he blinds them the same way (blows dust into their eyes) and tells them they've been "got" by him. Like this hoax. And I could go on but you get the point.

TS redirected to a post by Serenitys_Dream on Jan. 10, for a reason. It spoke about the corpse theory and she had posted great examples of why it would be used in that thread. He always redirected to something for a reason even if it was just something small. I have been reading his posts for 2+ yrs., and have yet to see him "mislead" people.

[scorpionchik]

The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren't meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.

EXACTLY!  It is coming together now, as I said it would.  As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.

Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:

BINGO!

Someone suggested that the staff were sent away, so they would not take pictures.  Really?  In a life-and-death emergency, you are going to WAIT until the staff leaves, before taking MJ to the hospital, JUST SO NOBODY GETS A PICTURE?????  In other words, it's okay if MJ dies before we get him to the hospital, just so long as nobody gets a picture in the process!!!???!!!

Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did.  So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax.  If MJ really died, this makes no sense.

So that gets rid of MJ in person on the stretcher.....

Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.

TS, you were telling that NOTHING went to UCLA and Michael was NOT with us WAY BEFORE he arrived to the airport (by Jermain), meaning Michael left Carolwood way before staged 911 call, then he went to airport to fly somewhere.
Then WHY and what is the meaning to tell house staff to leave house NOT TO SEE WHAT WAS ON STRETCHER if you are suggesting NOTHING went to UCLA.
SEE, I FOUND INCONSISTENCY in your theory because now u say staff was let go so they  could not take a picture of BODY  on stretcher bringing down. I am confused; was there body or no?

[Suzy7]

 Just to add, I also think him (TS) saying MJ's plan was to NOT go to the hospital, is saying that he never planned to go to the hospital. Not when he planned the hoax, and not on the day of June, 25, 09.
That theory involves the highest risk of all theories.

On the ambulance pic and Blount; if Blount is not in the know, and he wanted to say something there are many people in high/key places that is enough to keep him silent. If he was "let in" after that day then it still wouldn't change anything. Ben was there on June. 25., to reinforce the power of suggestion. Paramedics and the public can see a photographer run along side the ambulance that later claimed to take the "last pic" of MJ, thus, people believe that the photo was indeed shot in real time from that day/event. Blount for example, could have also been effected by this "power of suggestion" because he could have seen Ben himself that day and therefore, not question the photo etc.

The idea that MJ stars in all of his productions, is hardly evidence that he would ride in the ambulance that day and risk everything. He is the star of this production regardless. He is the "performer who died tragically" and became the victim with all eyes on him. He didn't need to go to in the ambulance to UCLA  because this whole scenario revolves around him anyway.

And finally, the threat of the 'Illuminati' against him NOW doesn't hold much weight, only because he is I'm sure, safe and protected. The worlds eyes are on his family and if anything was to happen, huge questions would arise. Much like if he came back, everyone would be watching him AND the culprits. If he died mysteriously after the BAM, ofcourse it would raise suspicion because people would be aware of the threat. Thusly, after the BAM he is safest and protected, not just by people close to him, but the public. So even if they were to read info here or anywhere, what can they do really? Hunt him down or his family? If we believe Michael is in control, then he and his family are fine.

[BeTheChange]

Great post Susy  ::P

TS did say in the past that he may support false theories from time to time.  I'm not sure if he ever gave an exact reason for this but if I had to guess...it was to see if we'd just gobble up what he was telling us or actually research it for ourselves.  I don't think for one second he ever did it for malicious reasons...if anything, as more of a test (if he did it at all).

I am not doubting the REAL threats that were against MJ one bit...they are/were evident to anyone who looked deep enough.  What I am unsure of (and what I meant in my previous post---not sure if you were questioning something I wrote)...is whether or not a specific threat existed on June 25th.  IMO, it would make a big difference in how things were carried out depending on whether or not there was.

I tend to think that given this level was supposed to be completed by the 29th and TS went as far as saying he would complete it himself if necessary to meet this 'deadline'...that he is not misleading us now.  That's my gut feeling...but, at the same time...I'm a bit 'thrown off' because TS has never spoonfed us anything and yet all of a sudden he is kinda sorta lol.

In support of him NOT misleading us now...IMO, everything he's said so far makes sense.

At the end of the day...the scenario that would cause the LEAST amount of risk to MJ and his hoax, is the one that makes the most sense to me...the whole purpose of all this was to 'fake' his death.  Intentionally putting himself in a position that could screw things up, or worse yet make his death a reality, would defeat the purpose.

With L.O.V.E. always.

[monstertooty]

The German TV station did NOT debunk the coroner van video.  I believe Jonell Star pointed out that the "Making of..." video was BS and had several differences from the original.

Annie are you okay?  michael-jackson/

[Suzy7]

Thanks BeTheChange, and no not you specifically but everyone in general who seem uneasy.
I think TS is a bit fed up lol, so he's trying his best to point us in the right direction, but people here have done a great job in investigating every theory and have made much progress.

I also do not think there was a threat on June 25 specifically but everyday in general-if that makes sense. Considering everything happened that day according to plan and TS made reference to MJ leaving to his secret location on a plane, PRIOR to the events unfolding, than they did not "get"  him or ruin his *initial* plan in my opinion.

@monstertooty I agree the van video was not debunked at all. What I don't know, is if it happened that day in real time. If it did, it could have been a double; if not, it could have been filmed prior. Either way, it was important to the hoax considering it's release date and it's possible purpose of making people question his "death". Just like the autopsy, gurney and ambulance picture's, it could have been done again, in advance, and everything released according to plan.

[Adi]

From TS regarding  MJ not being in imminent danger on June 25th 2009:

I know TS said this hoax is because of many things but TS didn't say it was also because MJ was in danger? So is MJ not in danger or was never in danger?

This is not an important question but TS said that it was also a prank, who is it a prank to? I know MJ liked doing pranks but why is that one of the reasons? I am not trying to single out that reason or take it out of context but it just interests me.

I have always said that MJ was in danger, but it was not imminent danger on June 25.  Did he realize on the morning of June 25, that someone was hot on his tracks--and then he suddenly decided to make a dash for the airport, while planning and orchestrating the hoax by cell phone on the run?  No, he had this planned for a long time; the numerology, the "illusion", and even his statement to Randy the night before--all these show us clearly that MJ already had it planned to the exact day.  Therefore, it was not a last-minute idea to escape imminent danger.

Also just another interesting section from TS - TIAI April 11 (Level 3) about what may have or may not have gone in the ambulance which I was reading last night:

so far nobody has offered any strong support for ALL of the paramedics being in on it; and if any of them were not in on it, there would almost certainly need to be a real corpse.  Please don't dismiss this possibility too quickly; it would explain the warm room, the paramedics not recognizing MJ, he looked like a frail old man, etc—and it would also decrease the amount of people that would need to be in on it (both at the house, and at the hospital).  If someone can bring at least two strong points against the corpse theory, and nobody can debunk either of the two: fine.  And if not, then we need to be open to considering all possibilities—that is what good investigation is all about.

and then this from TIAI March 9th (Level 2)

just like last time, I may play "DA" (devil's advocate)—and try to debunk things that are true, just to keep you on your toes!  Enjoy the ride!!

But I agree.....would TS be doing this now to us again so late in the goings-on??? maybe......maybe not.... no-one really knows except TS.....

I'm going to have to use one of those bloody hair pulling smilies (which I have refused to use so far)

/pull hair/

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Suzy7]

Thanks Adi! I do highly doubt he would put us on the wrong tracks now given he wanted this done by Nov. 29. Plus, all of his other posts you posted in this thread, hint to one specific theory.

[bec]

The credibility of any information does not start and end with its source. Just because TS said it doesn't make it true.

Agreed.  That is why I am giving five different reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.  Jermaine's clue/slip is only one of the five.

Jermaine's words can only be taken for what they're worth. Just because Jermaine (or LaToya or Joe or Paris) says something, doesn't make it true. He could well have been just dropping a rabbit hole. It's a popular theory, why not a false lead? It got attention, a lot of it. And who says the diagram of the hoax is out there in the media? Sounds like theatrics designed to draw attention, but false attention. You won't be spoon fed anything and Jermaine's fake slip up proves that. First of all, even if the escape theory were the truth, MJ would have left at least the night before if not day(s) before, not the day of 6/25/09 as the context of Jermaine's slip up suggests.

The house staff being told to leave before the ambulance makes me think there was something they weren't meant to see on that stretcher. They needed the least amount of people in the house before the stretcher left the house.

EXACTLY!  It is coming together now, as I said it would.  As soon as you realize that the things in the videos actually happened on 6-25-09, then the pieces start falling into place.

Exactly, lol.

Hey, maybe that's why they waited for so long - 40 minutes - before the ambulance left Carlwood - because they waited all the staff to leave :shock: :shock:

BINGO!

Someone suggested that the staff were sent away, so they would not take pictures.  Really?  In a life-and-death emergency, you are going to WAIT until the staff leaves, before taking MJ to the hospital, JUST SO NOBODY GETS A PICTURE?????  In other words, it's okay if MJ dies before we get him to the hospital, just so long as nobody gets a picture in the process!!!???!!!

Also, they could simply ask the staff not to take any pictures, and confiscate their camera/phone if they did.  So I think that we can file this (staff sent away before bringing the body down) as another good evidence of the hoax.  If MJ really died, this makes no sense.

So that gets rid of MJ in person on the stretcher.....

Yes, that is my third of five reasons why MJ did not go to the hospital.

Pardon me but, huh?? What is reason 3? Because the staff was sent home before the stretcher was brought down? #1 we only have a random media report that the staff was sent home. Kai did not confirm that she was sent home before the stretcher came down. #2 however, even if this report is true, it does not mean that MJ wasn't there and didn't go to UCLA in the ambulance, it just means that the priority at the house was minimal witnesses.

My fourth point, on MJ not going to the hospital, is the testimony of Sharon Sidney.  She is one of the "stalker" fans, who was at Carolwood day and night; and she was there when the ambulance went to UCLA.  Ben talks about her, and you can even see a still shot of her face {see 1:15, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvr08oqpK44; compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBwcjfRkht0}.

Of course we could write this off by saying that she is in on the hoax, but why?  Or if she is not in the hoax, why would she lie?  This is not my only evidence; but it is one of them.  And the testimony of people is usually considered acceptable evidence for court cases.

A casual fan might not be able to determine whether or not it was MJ on the stretcher; but she was no casual fan.  Her purpose in following the ambulance to UCLA was to see what was or wasn't in the stretcher; so it would be very hard to say that she merely FORGOT whether or not she saw MJ on the stretcher—this would NOT be something that you might forget (such as the time of day).

"She says, there were strange cars at Michael Jackson's mansion on the night of June 24th. She felt that something covert was taking place. ... She tells of how, at the hospital, she spoke with paramedic Blount, and how they both agreed that the person that was wheeled into the hospital was not Michael Jackson. Sharon is adamant that the patient wheeled into the emergency room was much shorter than Michael. She was very upset that paramedic Blount told a completely different story when he testified for the prosecution and detailed how he and his partner handled Michael's resuscitation efforts at Carolwood."
{http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tanya-young-williams/michael-jackson-trial-dr-conrad-murray-week-2_b_1002886.html; http://www.michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/smf2.0/index.php?topic=20842.0}.

The stalker fans make poor witnesses for detail because of their level of emotional trauma that day. She was looking at a body shape covered by a sheet being wisked past her... she may think she knows a lot about what she saw, but how much realistically could she have seen? Most likely she was just mistaken. Perhaps her perception was off. Perhaps she was just hysterical. Perhaps it was a combination of all 3. Who knows. A single witness isn't really credible considering her observation goes unsubstantiated. Not only unsubstantiated by Blout who never publically confirmed this story, but also by all the images we have from 6/25/09. The "body" has been described as a lot of things by us over the years, but never as being "too short".  I don't really have to add that maybe she is just lying.

I don't believe they would kill him according to this numerology, but I have never thought about the option of them trying after the world would already think he's dead. But that would mean AFTER he was pronounced dead.

No, they probably would not follow the 12:21 and 2:26; but we are NOT discussing here if the ACTUALLY got him (and since we have these numbers, then they did not get him).  Instead, we are discussing how MJ would PLAN for things to go.  They could take him out any time after the (supposedly) "not breathing" point in time, and the world would think that MJ was already dead (or very nearly so).  The risk therefore did not start at 2:26, the risk started a couple of hours before that.

Also, I am not saying that MJ found out that they were planning to get him that day.  Rather, I'm saying he knew that there was a general threat out there (and had been there for a long time); and IF someone in the hoax leaked his plans, it would be an unnecessary risk to go to the hospital (and also escape from the hospital, with a lot of people around--not all of whom you can trust).

Yes, there was also risk while getting away in a plane, and afterwards; but much less people needed to know about the specifics of the getaway, than the people in on the hoax.  You can't eliminate all risks, but you can minimize them.

You say it would be an unnecessary risk to go the hospital, yet... the ambulance and something did go to the hospital, and then something did leave UCLA that day and it was written into the script for a reason. Considering this was a KEY action scene, again, something had to make that trip. You say it would be difficult for MJ to escape. A body "escaped" wrapped in a sheet from the room via helicopter. Even if this is NOT MJ, MJ has been making it his business to "escape" from buildings and venues and events undetected his entire life. Avoiding the paps and the crowd is nothing new for MJ. Why would 6/25/09 be any different?

If we accept that the UCLA docs are in on it, the Paramedics are in on it, the Bodyguards are in on it, and the Coroner guys are in on it, MJ had all the cover and protection he needed to do this stunt wrapped in a sheet, it now seems, Carrolwood-->Coroner. Additionally, if you accept that the FBI is involved in some facet, you accept that those Helicopter guys are under orders to look the other way.

Some have said that the area was restricted, so they could control who came into the room.  While that is true, regarding the public and certain hospital staff; it is hard to know in advance every staff person who might be there that day, with authority to enter a restricted area (or at least thinks that they have authority, and decides to go in and "help out").  Randy said that there was a "... flurry of activity going on behind this curtain in the E -- um, emergency room ..." {33:49, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEdX5HlGDU}.

I do not know what lengths you would need to go to to ensure, in advance, that an ER scenario was 100% secure before attempting this hoax but that's one of those things that a movie production layperson and non-celebrity would never know. Like the legality questions, there's certain technical aspects to the hoax that I just have to trust the proper precautions have been taken. If you like, TS, you can count this as one strong piece of evidence that supports your theory simply because I do not have the expertise to say if it's possible or not. I do know that UCLA has wings of their ER that are available for shooting movies and TV in, and the LAFD and LAPD offer assistance in the form of props and vehicles for filming Hollywood productions, but that is all I can offer.

I might go back to the stretcher .gif again. I'll concede TS successfully showed an object which is probably legs on the far side of the stretcher but I don't agree this means MJ wasn't on the stretcher and I also don't agree that it means that is not MJ's ear-face-ear/ponytail that we see for 3 frames. I don't know if it's worth arguing anymore though, the hour is late.

[scorpionchik]

The credibility of any information does not start and end with its source. Just because TS said it doesn't make it true.

Agree. But IF he/she would have been an INSIDER/KNOWER, it  suppose to be true and only true, right? Since there is only one truth and if TS source is Michael himself or family memb., then there should be NO doubts. IMO.