TIAI November 11 (11-11-11)

[BeTheChange]

I'm still getting stuck on WHO at Carolwood would need to be 'fooled' by either a real corpse or dummy (it seems we're down to 3 possibilites, those 2 and nothing at all going to UCLA).  Remember, the question before us is what or who left Carolwood and went to UCLA...nothing beyond that.  I'm thinking there has got to be a logical solution to this and that we're somehow missing something or thinking too much on it (kinda like 7a lol).

IF there was NO sting targeting anyone in the house, then those that saw the 'body' most likely were in on it...and I have no issue with that because there wasn't many that supposedly saw the 'body' at Carolwood.  There was Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez (TS asked us to think of WHO saw the body before the paramedics arrived).  So, at this stage anyway, if none of the above were targets of any sting, then why the need for a dummy or a corpse?

The only NEED would arise if any of the above had to be 'fooled' into thinking Mike had really died or was in the process of dying.  But even then, these are all people that spent a lot of time with MJ....whether they were presented with a dummy or a real corpse, would they not notice that something wasn't right?  I mean someone you see every single day (like a parent or sibling...would you not notice if they were replaced with a dummy or some other corpse??).  I guess the argument could be made that the dummy was so life-like and MJ looking that they were fooled...but I'm not sure about that. 

Thinking along those lines, I tend to believe that those who saw the body were in on it because if they weren't, they would've noticed that it was not MJ laying there (regardless of whether or not it was a dummy or some other corpse).  IF any of them were targets of a sting and therefore needed to be 'fooled', then the most logical solution to that IMO would be a live MJ playing the part himself (i.e. it would be the most realistic and believable scenario).  BUT, then the paramedics most definitely would have to be in on it since CPR and medications given would be dangerous to a live and healthy MJ.

However, IF they were in on it (just those that saw the body at Carolwood prior to paramedics arriving), then nothing would be needed because no one needed to be fooled.  No dummy, no live MJ, no corpse...no nothing would be NEEDED. 

At this point, the paramedics enter the picture.  IF they are NOT in on it...would a dummy fool them?  I highly doubt that, no matter how sophisticated this dummy could be.  A real corpse could explain the discrepancies in testimony...however, we have at least one paramedic saying he recognized MJ immediately.  Was he lying or telling the truth?  We can't know for sure because the testimonies vary.  However, the options are 1) ALL the paramedics were in on it, 2) NONE of them were in on it, or 3) only SOME of them were in on it.  Again, the problem with a dummy arises whether none or some of them were in on it.  If all of them were in on it, then WHY the need for anything?  A real corpse, at this point, almost seems more logical than a dummy....but that would all depend on whether or not the paramedics were in on it (or some or none).

Putting that aside for a sec...the only other reason I could think of to use either a dummy or a real corpse would be for risk of being seen during transport.  But did that risk even exist?  The ambu windows are tinted and we know no one got a shot of the inside of the ambu on June 25th.  No one saw anything being loaded into the ambulance at Carolwood (the closest thing we have is Ben's vid through the fence, which I still find confusing given the angle and proximity to the gate when compared to the circular drive of the house and the front door)....and no one saw anything, other than a stretcher, being wheeled into UCLA.

IF we are gonna SOLELY go on 'evidence' and what we can prove....I would have to say that based on what we have, mixed in with some thought processes/what makes sense....that nothing was 'loaded' into the ambulance at Carolwood (other than a stretcher and the personnel/Murray)...and the exact same (nothing) was wheeled into UCLA.

With L.O.V.E. always.

[hesouttamylife]

One thing I know for sure is that professional people do not easily admit that they have been made fools of.  If they actually unknowingly worked on a patient for over an hour trying to bring him to life, only to find out it was a dummy, then certainly they are not going to admit it, lol.  So they will go along with any scenario that takes them out of the equation.  To openly admit that you didn’t know a dummy from a real person would surely be a tad embarassing.  So I’m of the belief that they were in on it and that only a few doctors were in that room and had been briefed, the one’s who testified.  The hospital administrator had to back them up to make it look legit.  Much of the medical testimony was in response to the autopsy and lab papework.  None of those witnesses even saw the body so their testimony could be considered real and true based on the findings only.  It seemed more like a classroom lecture anyway, so possibly that is all that it was. 

[GINAFELICIA]

@Bethechange I think you just made a very good post. I am also blocked at the paramedics issue,  I just can't decide if they are in or not.

@mimi248 - as none of the theories presented here seem to match all the needed criteria, I think you could have a point -  MJ died and he will ressurect :shock: :shock: :shock:

[scorpionchik]

@scorpionchik I was thinking of your scenario too in the past. Yes maybe something really happened to him and when he was revived he just decided to remain "dead", I can imagine him telling his managers "just tell them I'm dead".

But there's one thing bugging me: why the housekeepers were sent away before the ambulance? Normally I would do that if I had something to hide from them. So what was it they had to hide from them?  My imagination doesn't help me this time.

...reminds me of one of my former employers, who i was told used to send everybody home when the tax collectors came in hmmmm... suspicious//

Or maybe it's not even this, maybe they wanted to prevent the employees to take photos of the stretcher, as simple as this.

Still, there is a problem: why would the emergency doctors at UCLA cooperate with him to let him escape, because this looks like a crime to me, no doctor in his/hers right mind would involve into such a risky unplanned thing. Could you imagine he just told them "you know docs, i would like to fake my death now" and they went like "OK Michael, you can run away through the back door".

I'll try to explain: Kai was told to go home because house should be locked when real MJ taken to hospital, they are not allowed to stay in the empty house. I don't recall Kai saying she was sent home before ambulance arrived, I remember she said she did not see whether Michael was taken, was on stretcher actually. Therefore, in the past I had a version of real corpse was taken to UCLA, but now I tend to believe it was MJ, fits more to latest events.
Why would UCLA doctor cooperate? Exactly for the reason I say: BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO ASSIST KOP GET AWAY OF ASSASINS, TO SAVE HIS LIFE. It is part of their duty. If anyone's life threaten they will cooperate with authorites and victim, and coroner writing fake autopcy also perfectly explained here. Either way doctors should be  in hoax, whether corpse was used or real Michael was in UCLA. Helping real Michael is more reasonable, don't you think?
Now, we are coming back to the earlier theory of MJ being in protective custody, but his own VIP house, not government provided. The only questionable now is whether there is sting going on to reveal assassins or they just end with involuntary manslaughter and Michael will reveal the rest. In this case, maybe only doctors invloved and no authorities, though I doubt so and not sure but possible. One thing is fact that Jermain announced MJ 'death" not doctors.

[luvandmissumike]

I agree with anna. i think this is a big production with actors, props & improv (although following a script & well versed on ur particular part). From the TII dancer/ball bearers to the emergency room & court room procedures. I think these are actors, under a confidentiality agreement. the ambo pics, bedroom pics & death pic were all done prior & somewhere else (dome/culver) I think murray, body guards, amir, chase & the children are in on it.  paris once asked mike while young, "can we be in ur next movie daddy?" the children have been taking acting classes for yrs. I once saw something that stated paris is an actress for sony? which raised doubts r these his children or are they playing a part, idk (no parent would emotionally do that to their chidren). Who or what went to UCLA I'm still not sure.  I don't believe mike was on the stretcher, the last person getting out of the ambo(where a guy raises his jacket to conceal) has his coat on backwards & hand on head, i think could be mike.  Nor do i get the feeling of an actual emergency room entrance.  UCLA was reported as having many tunnels (he could have slipped out of one of those).  Also of course, I could be wrong.  the reason for this could be to bring attention to the medical field, the judicial system/law enforcement, & the media.  Making the masses aware NOT to blindly believe what you are told......DUE DILIGENCE     

[scorpionchik]

MJ production could include in role everybody but court, attorneys and authorities. Enough.

[Starchild]

I'm still getting stuck on WHO at Carolwood would need to be 'fooled' by either a real corpse or dummy (it seems we're down to 3 possibilites, those 2 and nothing at all going to UCLA).  Remember, the question before us is what or who left Carolwood and went to UCLA...nothing beyond that.  I'm thinking there has got to be a logical solution to this and that we're somehow missing something or thinking too much on it (kinda like 7a lol).

IF there was NO sting targeting anyone in the house, then those that saw the 'body' most likely were in on it...and I have no issue with that because there wasn't many that supposedly saw the 'body' at Carolwood.  There was Murray, the kids, Amir, Mohammad and Alvarez (TS asked us to think of WHO saw the body before the paramedics arrived).  So, at this stage anyway, if none of the above were targets of any sting, then why the need for a dummy or a corpse?

The only NEED would arise if any of the above had to be 'fooled' into thinking Mike had really died or was in the process of dying.  But even then, these are all people that spent a lot of time with MJ....whether they were presented with a dummy or a real corpse, would they not notice that something wasn't right?  I mean someone you see every single day (like a parent or sibling...would you not notice if they were replaced with a dummy or some other corpse??).  I guess the argument could be made that the dummy was so life-like and MJ looking that they were fooled...but I'm not sure about that. 

Thinking along those lines, I tend to believe that those who saw the body were in on it because if they weren't, they would've noticed that it was not MJ laying there (regardless of whether or not it was a dummy or some other corpse).  IF any of them were targets of a sting and therefore needed to be 'fooled', then the most logical solution to that IMO would be a live MJ playing the part himself (i.e. it would be the most realistic and believable scenario).  BUT, then the paramedics most definitely would have to be in on it since CPR and medications given would be dangerous to a live and healthy MJ.

However, IF they were in on it (just those that saw the body at Carolwood prior to paramedics arriving), then nothing would be needed because no one needed to be fooled.  No dummy, no live MJ, no corpse...no nothing would be NEEDED. 

At this point, the paramedics enter the picture.  IF they are NOT in on it...would a dummy fool them?  I highly doubt that, no matter how sophisticated this dummy could be.  A real corpse could explain the discrepancies in testimony...however, we have at least one paramedic saying he recognized MJ immediately.  Was he lying or telling the truth?  We can't know for sure because the testimonies vary.  However, the options are 1) ALL the paramedics were in on it, 2) NONE of them were in on it, or 3) only SOME of them were in on it.  Again, the problem with a dummy arises whether none or some of them were in on it.  If all of them were in on it, then WHY the need for anything?  A real corpse, at this point, almost seems more logical than a dummy....but that would all depend on whether or not the paramedics were in on it (or some or none).

Putting that aside for a sec...the only other reason I could think of to use either a dummy or a real corpse would be for risk of being seen during transport.  But did that risk even exist?  The ambu windows are tinted and we know no one got a shot of the inside of the ambu on June 25th.  No one saw anything being loaded into the ambulance at Carolwood (the closest thing we have is Ben's vid through the fence, which I still find confusing given the angle and proximity to the gate when compared to the circular drive of the house and the front door)....and no one saw anything, other than a stretcher, being wheeled into UCLA.

IF we are gonna SOLELY go on 'evidence' and what we can prove....I would have to say that based on what we have, mixed in with some thought processes/what makes sense....that nothing was 'loaded' into the ambulance at Carolwood (other than a stretcher and the personnel/Murray)...and the exact same (nothing) was wheeled into UCLA.

With L.O.V.E. always.

Don't know if this has already been tossed in the ring as an idea, but MJ reportedly went back and forth to Klein's office in May 2009.  Could have been that half the time that "MJ" was actually a hospice patient receiving plastic surgery to look like MJ.  Just a thought. 

[GINAFELICIA]

from scorpion

Why would UCLA doctor cooperate? Exactly for the reason I say: BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO ASSIST KOP GET AWAY OF ASSASINS, TO SAVE HIS LIFE. It is part of their duty. If anyone's life threaten they will cooperate with authorites and victim, and coroner writing fake autopcy also perfectly explained here. Either way doctors should be  in hoax, whether corpse was used or real Michael was in UCLA.

Could be. But still.....let's say they revive MJ at UCLA....is it reasonable to think that a person who was just revived can realize immediately he was the victim of a murder attempt and calls the authorities?
I am not saying that you could not be right but to me it looks like it is too sudden, I mean MJ had to prove somehow to authorities in less than an hour that he is the victim of a murder attempt and the authorities have to make a quick decision to fake his death.

It's like there's not enough time to do all these in an hour and a half or less, the time between the moment he arrived at UCLA and the moment Jermaine announced MJ's death. I mean revive him, MJ realizing someone tried to murder him when under perfusion and medication, calling authorities, proving to them someone tried to kill him and convincing them to assist him in faking his death...I don't know if it is possible.

[scorpionchik]

from scorpion

Why would UCLA doctor cooperate? Exactly for the reason I say: BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO ASSIST KOP GET AWAY OF ASSASINS, TO SAVE HIS LIFE. It is part of their duty. If anyone's life threaten they will cooperate with authorites and victim, and coroner writing fake autopcy also perfectly explained here. Either way doctors should be  in hoax, whether corpse was used or real Michael was in UCLA.

Could be. But still.....let's say they revive MJ at UCLA....is it reasonable to think that a person who was just revived can realize immediately he was the victim of a murder attempt and calls the authorities?
I am not saying that you could not be right but to me it looks like it is too sudden, I mean MJ had to prove somehow to authorities in less than an hour that he is the victim of a murder attempt and the authorities have to make a quick decision to fake his death.

It's like there's not enough time to do all these in an hour and a half or less, the time between the moment he arrived at UCLA and the moment Jermaine announced MJ's death. I mean revive him, MJ realizing someone tried to murder him when under perfusion and medication, calling authorities, proving to them someone tried to kill him and convincing them to assist him in faking his death...I don't know if it is possible.

Michael could be announced dead but remain in the hospital of course and other process could go on later. The murderer was already in the ambulance with him and gave enough doubtful info to paramedics. MJ did not have to prove or realize anything in the condition he was brought to UCLA, IV in the room, etc. was enough. It is even possible La Toya/family said to doctors it is a murder attempt MJ was always afraid of, it is not an accident.
What about dummy or corpse version? Would UCLA doctors, coroner, etc. participate in foolish hoax reviving dummy/corpse and testify it was Michael Jackson? That sounds total BS to me. For that to be possible, the whole Los Angeles county must be in hoax which is NOT.

[Im_convincedmjalive]

Where are you I'mconvinced? 

I have been here the whole time reading along. I took myself/theory out of this thread for a few reasons. I wanted to see how many people would defend the corpse theory and what they would use as evidence to back it up. For me, I am still convinced a corpse was used and I have provided alot of evidence (not opinion only) to back up my theory. I have repeated my theory in many threads and for the most part I didn't think many were backing me in my theories. I felt like I was just being a parrot so this time around I took myself and my theory out of the equation. I surely can't be the only one who is competent to write a coherent theory for the corpse being used.

My theory still stands in other threads as what I believe and maybe soon I may bring that info here if TS doesn't move on to 7c to quickly.

[GINAFELICIA]

Beats me. Nothing seems to fit. None of the theories . I don't know how the hell he did it crash/ crash/ crash/.
Going to bed now, hoping that TS will post by tomorrow morning or I'll have a revealing dream /white flag/.
 bearhug to Michael, wherever you are.

the corpse theory would be good but the main problem is how to get a fresh corpse that matches
the dummy would be good but involves the paramedics
nothing is not good because involves too many people

I give up for today

[PureLove]

Suzy7, I don't think you understood a word of what I said.

@PureLove, you have not given me one good reason why a corpse would be required. Like I said: if it is only for creating a scenario, a dummy could do the trick.

I've already given a very good reason Souza. And many things that supports the theory. You can not put a chest tube into a dummy. Just an example. I believe that I explained enough, so there is no need to keep on explaining why a corpse was more useful than a dummy.

[scorpionchik]

Where are you I'mconvinced? 

I have been here the whole time reading along. I took myself/theory out of this thread for a few reasons. I wanted to see how many people would defend the corpse theory and what they would use as evidence to back it up. For me, I am still convinced a corpse was used and I have provided alot of evidence (not opinion only) to back up my theory. I have repeated my theory in many threads and for the most part I didn't think many were backing me in my theories. I felt like I was just being a parrot so this time around I took myself and my theory out of the equation. I surely can't be the only one who is competent to write a coherent theory for the corpse being used.

My theory still stands in other threads as what I believe and maybe soon I may bring that info here if TS doesn't move on to 7c to quickly.

I can back up NO corpse thoery: doctors, paramedics, bodyguards etc. WOULD NOT testify under penalty and perjury that they were trying to revive real Michael Jackson but they actually were working on somebody else's body. Simple as that.

[Dontwalkaway]

Mimi and Gina,  You know I'm with you on the resurrection possibility.  Also, remember when no one knew where the body was for a while and then Latoya said she was the one taking care of the body ?  All of that seemed odd to me. 

Also, remember the reports about another person in the hospital named Soule Shawn.  Joe said something that it was Soule Shawn or some one in the hospital.  Also, there were reports from two hospitals that are not even too close to each other.  There were reports from Mt. Sinai or somewhere as well as UCLA. 

Maybe we have two deaths and one resurrection ?  Maybe a corpse or a dummy and a faked death ?  Maybe a hospice patient that died and a resurrection from Michael ?

Sorry to throw a wrench into this, but I'm thinking like Mimi.  We have to think way outside the box during this time.  There is the spiritual, paranormal side to this that people aren't thinking about.  I didn't understand it either until I started reading.  Read about ascension, ancient egyptian pharoahs, light bodies, etc.  You'll see that there are possibilities in this world that we don't know about.

Remember Latoya saying there are two hands.  The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.  Two things going on at the same time.  But there was also the illusion like a magic trick. 
Peace and Love to all. 

 

[mimi248]

Beats me. Nothing seems to fit. None of the theories . I don't know how the hell he did it crash/ crash/ crash/.
Going to bed now, hoping that TS will post by tomorrow morning or I'll have a revealing dream /white flag/.
 bearhug to Michael, wherever you are.

the corpse theory would be good but the main problem is how to get a fresh corpse that matches
the dummy would be good but involves the paramedics
nothing is not good because involves too many people

I give up for today

Also, did you notice that june 25 th 2009 is the ONLY DATE able to cut the hoax time  in a perfection NUMEROLOGIE.

i'll explain
the 555days of the hoax is the first daythis yearJanuary 1st ( i'm sure but i think, the album Michael came out this day ) 
then, the 666 day of the hoax is the 21 april wich is the 111 day of this year. ( add 666+111= 777)
then the 777 days of te hoax is the August 10th wich is also the 222 day of this year (add 777+222=999
and to finish, on november 29 th, it wil be the 888 day of this hoax (symbolizing RESURECTION ) and also the 333 day of this year (symbolizing trinity) and then add you will be shocked. 888+333= 1221 !!!! THIS JUST BLOW MY MIND  .
so, try with with any other dates, you will NEVER find a so perfect numerologie
only june 25th is able to pulling that of .
and don't forget that pepsy incident is exactly the middle of mj life  day for day !!
So, is there a coincidence again ?i don't think so.
i try hard to find others theorie but the  real resurection seem to fit perfectly , and i tell you, i'm scared . good night all. with love