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use_your_illusion

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Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 03:57:42 AM
I love how David 'accidentally' put up that rebuttal video...of Dr.White taking the I.V cord out of his pocket, when White previously stated that it couldn't fit in a pocket.
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Do you give up yet?

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curls

Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 04:16:11 AM
Now I'm crying! This is the first thread I've clicked on this morning and feel overwhelmed at these recent wonderful comments. To top it all Im_convinced, goes and posts 'Will You Be There' - I've watched that performance countless times yet I'm still glued to it each new time - it's perfection, and it never fails to pull at my heartstrings! (Thanks Im_conv!)

Michael, I don't know where you're taking us next (post-verdict is all a total unknown to me, whatever the jury decides), but I'll be there - how could I not be?
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Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 09:13:06 AM
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
@
@fordtocarr There will be NO deliberation during the weekend.
21 hours ago

SO...the news is all speculating if the jurors will hurry for a verdict so they have their weekend free to not return. 
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Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 09:17:37 AM
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You are all amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am seeing "signs" everywhere now and it is really "freaky", but at the same time it is absolutely amazing!! Never in a million years would I have believed that anything like this was even "possible", But it was Michael who taught me to "open" my mind to all possibilities and when I did...well you guys understand. There is some "Mind" blowing stuff going on right now...Pun intended! lol

We really do create our own reality...we are "spiritual beings" living a "Human experience", and the world is changing before our eyes because of people, like us who truly "Believe".

We will be here Michael...Always and Forever! We are ONE...We are LOVE!

Sending you all LOVE...Please know how much I appreciate all of you and what you do! Remember that we are not alone!!!!!! THIS IS IT!


You took the words right out of my mouth and I couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree with every word!
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~Mish~

"Breathe in waves of doubt, bitter in your mouth" - Toad The Wet Sprocket

Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 10:09:06 AM
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@Wishingstar. I love the way your over-hoaxed mind works. Christmas milk is a new company whose advertising slogan is' the elves favourite drink' [Are smurfs elves?]It also brings to mind the christmas decorations that were still up at Carolwood. The home page for Christmas Milk has a touching story of how an adopted boy was looking for the taste of Christmas with his forever family and then discovers Christmas Milk. Then the site goes on to say never give up on your dreams no matter how big or small they are and finishes off with the statement that a percentage of profits go to children in orphanage care.
 Very Interesting. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Or maybe I am just delirious by now from lack of sleep especially since the trial has been on.

OMGosh RK......yes, I read the label about the children's fund...I actually had it mind to look it up today...wow is all I can say.  Thank you so much for taking the time to post that information...I don't even know where to go with this, lol.  It was so odd to be standing in the dairy section, thinking hoaxie thoughts.....surely not connected  :shock:
 :lol: I wouldn't' be at all surprised though.  Michael did say at one point he had cows at Neverland....that ranchers lease out the land, right?  Perhaps those were dairy cows used for this...... you neverland know about things!  Thanks again for the information...you're great!

@mjj4ever777 & Mish1981....you're the amazing ones......we are ONE....FAMILY comes first....thank you for your sweet words.......I personally appreciate you guys beyond all words, as I do all here. You are ALL great..........I LOVE YOU!!!! 

Have a very beautiful day...no matter what happens with the jury.....we will be here always with love in our hearts. 

LOVE
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paula-c

Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 10:28:17 AM
This is the vision of a person who does not believe that Michael is alive, but if  agree that yesterday during the arguments of the closing will be said phrases out of context and veiled messages.

Closing Arguments




Judge Pastor is reading a lengthy instruction to the Jury before closing arguments begin.  First notice was that he said “Michael Joseph Jackson” during his instructions to the jury.  So this is how we started off the day. 



The Prosecution


- Walgren is using the projector with power points to support his closing arguments.  His point that he is trying to make is that Murray acted not with intent to kill Michael, but with criminal negligence that caused the death, or act of failure to perform a legal duty causes death.


- Walgren says that it only needs to be proved that Murray acted in a remote matter for him to be considered guilty of manslaughter.  (This is later refuted by Chernoff below, stating there has to be direct cause for conviction).


- Walgren states that the defendant must have foreseen the consequence of the factor that caused Michael’s death and could only be considered innocent if the circumstances were unforeseeable and extraordinary.  (Agree, this is part of the Judge’s instruction).


-Walgren says Murray was conscious of guilt because he failed to share information with paramedics and doctors at the ER of the administered Propofol. (Murray did admit to this, saying forgot to mention it but did tell about the other meds).


- Neither of the other parties signed Conrad Murray’s employment contract (AEG, Michael Jackson), was of the understanding he would be getting 100K a month, wrote to his patients/clinics that he was leaving medicine.  (This is true via Murray’s signature on contract.)


- Walgren remarks about the two months of orders of Propofol and Lorazapam to the apartment (not clinic) of Nicole Alvarez. (not sent to a clinic – I agree)


- Walgren addresses May 10th recording of Michael slurring speech (why would Murray make such a recording?  This is on a Sunday.) Walgren addresses that Murray made this recording on his Iphone and keeps it for some unknown reason. (Not sure why Walgren added that.)


- Walgren starts repeating parts of the recording, states “My show”, “It’s amazing”, “I’ve never seen anything like this” . . . “build the greatest children’s hospital in the world”.  Walgren frames it in “he says this in a vulnerable state.  Murray sits by his side and records this on his I-phone”.  (The repeating of Michael’s statements on that tape center around “My show” and “I’ve never seen anything like this” sound more like a veiled message then a fact necessary to convict Murray.  Then Walgren adds that Murray taped this “while Murray sits by his side…” which actually presents a carrying Murray.  Odd and unnecessary information to include as a point to try and get a conviction).


- Walgren says two days later he orders another shipment of Propofol and Midazolam. (Now we’re back to normal argument!)


- Walgren touches on Ortega’s testimony about Michael being excited about the Illusion, and talking to Kenny Ortega about “the illusion the next day”.  Walgren repeated the word “Illusion” three times.  (Again, this has nothing to do with proof of guilt – another veiled message?)


- Walgren seems to be giving clues by putting both Ortega’s and Phillip’s statements up there, accentuating the Illusion and Michael’s statements “You got me this far, I can take it from here”.  (Why such emphasis on these statements?  None of this has to do with Murray.  Walgren did also mention Murray stating to Ortega that he is the director and He was the doctor and should leave Michael’s health to him.  I also thought it was odd that Ortega used the term “he left the building” . . . Elvis left the building?).


- At 4:30 Walgren says that Murray says Michael is complaining about not sleeping. (a screenshot of the powerpoint below on Murray’s timeline given to police).

- Brazil looks back toward where the Jackson’s may be and smiles and looks away

- Walgren makes a point about intent on Murray’s statement that Murray decided to give him the Propofol when Michael stated they would have to cancel the rehearsal so he could sleep past noon.  Walgren’s argument was that Murray’s INTENT was that he intended for Michael to sleep longer once Michael said he would have to cancel the rehearsals and could sleep past noon.  (I did not agree this was proof, this is speculating).


-Walgren plays the recording again of Murray telling detectives that he only left Michael to go to the bathroom. (Murray – too much information about what HE had to do in the bathroom using the words “to relieve myself . . . of urine”  (What else would he possibly relieve himself of?  Geesh!)


- Murray said Michael had a heart beat but was not breathing when he came back.  Murray did not call 911 immediately.  Calls Amir Williams at 12:12 pm.  Admits he didn’t tell Amir to call 911 when he left a voicemail.  Said he would want to know what it was about (Walgren makes a good point he was leaving voicemail and could have used that time to call 911).


- @9:23am Murray is talking to a Chanel Murray.  (???) screen shots of emails on his phone in exhibit, etc…


- This is all going on during the time Murray says Michael is complaining about not being able to sleep.  (Chernoff addresses this in his argument).

Walgren states Murray was doing what he was told, as an employee, not as a doctor to a patient but as an employee to an employer.  (I  thought this was a good comparison to make, I agree Murray should have said no, but I don’t believe Michael is an addict either.)
- Walgren talks about Anding’s testimony that 5 minutes into phone call she is getting no response from Murray, hears coughing and muffled voices. (time of call proves proof of sign of trouble and when).


-Walgren recounts that Williams states Murray tells Alvarez to grab saline bag (the one with the bottle in it) but never grabs the other one.  (No prints from Alvarez on this bag, Chernoff addresses below).


- Mentions Fleak’s picture of the bottle outside the bag, saying she took it out for the purposes of photography.  (Nice try but that was incredibly sloppy).


- Walgren states that Murray didn’t call 911 until after, Alvarez says, Murray has Alvarez put medicine bottles and the saline bag and bottle in the medical bag.


- Walgren says “what would possess a medical doctor, not to call 911 other than to put Dr. Murray first and Michael Jackson and his life, last?  (Chernoff addresses this below.  He is also rubbing his forehead a lot.  I think he needs a facial message to get rid of that headache, poor guy).


- Senneff takes Michael to the ambulance then returns upstairs to retrieve his equipment.  (???  Ambulance, sense of urgency?  There are four other people coming out of that house and none of them can get the equipment?  It’s not exactly a two-second dash into that huge house, up the stairs, across the landing, through the foyer and into the bedroom area to collect the equipment and then back down through all that!)



- ER doctors said Murray told them he only gave Michael Lorazapam and Midazolam and “overlooked” the Propofol.  (I don’t trust at least two of those doctors, but this isn’t a cause of death since Cooper stated he was already clinically dead when he got there).


- Alvarez and Muhammed state Murray wanted to go back to house to recover “cream” Michael didn’t want to the world to know about.  (This is what THEY said and Chernoff offers another explanation below.)


- Walgren says Murray was concerned about finger prints and medical bags with equipment.  (Chernoff addresses below).


- States Murray told police about the bags up in the cabinet, but Walgren suggests Murray only told them because he assumed that police had already been there (assumes?  This is not proof and it is not cause) t o get “ahead of the story”  (As I jury I would have to disregard this as evidence because it is complete fabrication).


- Steinberg, Kamangar, Shafer experts for the prosecution said they would never have done what Murray did.  (White also said this, it shouldn’t have been done.)


- Walgren states because Propofol should be used in this setting (shows hospital emergency room) not in this setting (shows pic of Michael’s bedroom).  (agreed or at least a clinic with another medical professional present and monitoring equipment.)


- Walgren states setting is the direct cause of Michael’s death. Criminal gross negligence.  (That is not the direct cause but a contributing cause.)


- Study on Propofol for sleep post-dated Michael’s death and experts stated it was just an experiment, not standard of care.  (this is false information.  There have been other studies, but the only evidence that was submitted – Sleep specialist testified it is given in intensive care for patient comfort and mild to moderate sedation for people on ventilators – was given to Michael by other doctors to Michael for sleep, but this was not submitted into evidence except by witness statements).


- Walgren goes through standards of care breeched, including lack of monitoring equipment and abandonment of patient.


- Walgren makes a good point bringing up Dr. White’s mention of variables, which is why you take the precautions because every patient reacts differently. Adds the lack of medical records (What did Fleak collect from him then?)


- Propofol bottle found in saline bag (allegedly) that the hanging tab was not used, has the spike hole and Murray’s fingerprints (but there is no propfol residue inside bag, no spike in bag, spike would not fit through both and the second infusion tubing is missing).


- Walgren talks about Witnesses testifying to Murray treating them but points out that Murray was treating them in a hospital or clinic for what Murray was trained in, hearts.  (I agree with this, good point by Walgren, however Murray IS CERTIFIED in moderate anesthesia for PROCEDURES.)


- Walgren says that Metzger testified no amount of money would convince him to give Michael Propofol.  Walgren said no doctor had until Murray . . . Immediately after that he played a portion of Cherilyn Lee’s testimony that Michael told her that doctors had given it to him, and told him it was safe (Walgren contradicts his own witness.  And I have my suspicions on Metzger thanks to Jermaine’s page 324).


- Lorazapam is a controlled substance, should have been secured, locked up.  (I agree with this, but Michael had his own prescriptions in another bedroom.  Murray can’t control what Michael does with his own medications or where he keeps them).


- Walgren has the nerve to mention White’s “financial” motivation when he himself tried to lure White away from the defense before White had committed to the defense.  Calls White’s testimony “junk science” and “garbage”. 


(This is where he loses me because Walgren himself shows vindictive motive because White wouldn’t testify for Walgren who ORIGINALLY SOUGHT HIS EXPERTISE and was told no.  He’s attacking Dr. White in his closing argument– Who’s on trial?  Suddenly his closing argument is about Dr. White and not the man on trial, Murray.  He then turns around and agrees with Dr. White’s statement that he would never administer Propofol in a bedroom and would never consider it.  Walgren, in showing the clips of White’s testimony that HE wanted the jury to hear, effectively shortened White’s answers (and for that I thank him).


- Walgren continues on a “White-Rant”, Still attacking White on the Ornelas models on the urine concentrations. White points out that White was staying at Flanagan’s house while there to testify.  (And if he accepted Walgren’s offer probably would have stayed at Walgren’s house?  Maybe he should have stayed at Dr. Shafer’s since they USED to be friends).


- Still attacking White on the articles and Models that he did not put together.  (Defense should have brought in Ornelas – defense through him under the bus on this one. Chernoff addresses this below).


- Walgren points out White hedging on the question if an infusion line could be put in someone’s pocket, then shows a clip of White pulling an infusion line out of his pocket for Flanagan to use.  (However THAT infusion line didn’t have liquid in it and was in a wrapper. Did Murray have wet pants?  Maybe he should have stayed in the bathroom longer? Sorry, sarcasm).


- Walgren makes a good point in the Simon’s article.  Walgren states that the article Shafer came back to testify to  was written in 2002 and was not critical of Simon study but rather confirmed that Simon’s 1988 study lacked the sophisticated equipment to measure that they have today.  (Good point, I agree with this).


- Closing – Michael Jackson trusted Conrad Murray with his life . . . Michael Jackson paid with his life.  States Murray didn’t want to lose this job and did what he was asked, but that’s not what he should have done as a doctor.  (not comfortable with this . . . We don’t know Michael asked for this. We only know what witnesses said and there were only two that testified to Michael asking for this . . . Murray and Lee).


Closing argument from Walgren I thought was good, persuasive even though I don’t’ agree with all the points, the ones in regard to care of Michael and abandonment are hard to explain of a doctor.


Lunch break




Chernoff Closing Arguments


- Chernoff begins by attacking Walgren’s taking of quotes out of context and Walgren’s statement that you don’t have to show exact causal to prove guilt and Chernoff says “the disturbing thing is that is EXACTLY what he has to do.  (I agree with this. Walgren should not be confusing the Jury on the judge’s instructions and the law.)


- Said Walgren spent an hour and a half talking about negligence.  Says the prosecution had to show Murray killed Michael and the only thing that came close was reference to the baggy pants.  (I hope he’s going to use better examples than that.  There were much better points to make.)


- Undisputable facts – character and nature of Propofol facts first.


Timeline – implied what was going on during phone calls when no proof there was anything going on.  Michael was found in distress at around noon after phone calls were already made and he dropped that phone call to Anding when it happened.  (I agree only because there is no proof that Murray was out of the room when he made the phone calls.)


-Sade Anding’s phone call was 11:51 and she said she listened for about 10 mintues, that’s how they can determine this happened at noon.  (Agreed.  Anding testified to hearing coughing and noises and no one else was in the room according to Murray, besides he and Michael at that time).


- Never found Michael Jackson not breathing for those 42 minutes prior that Murray was on the phone.  (Not sure I agree with this other than the statement above.  In Murray’s police STATEMENT he says he “came back in” and Michael was not breathing, unless he called Anding on his way back in from the bathroom.)


- Experts say Propofol is a ten minute drug by injection.  To keep Propofol actually working is through a drip.  Only can be administered through IV injection or drip, not orally according to both doctors, it is not viable any other way. (I agree with this.)  If injected prior to 11:18, around 11:05 am then by the time Murray left the room at 11:18, he was off the phone when he gave the injections (except calling Anding.)  No matter what Murray was doing, there was no chance of harm based on what he knew he gave Michael.  Prosecution spent 6 weeks trying to prove a drip, because without a drip, what Murray gave him would not have killed him.  (this is all from Chernoff).


- Chernoff said Walgren didn’t talk about the testimony of Shafer, Fleak or Alvarez because they were trying to create a drip that never existed.  It’s is the only thing that would have/could have killed him.  (The bolus death was disproved on models because the amount needed to kill him would have had to have been injected rapid bolus, repeatedly and even a skilled anesthesiologist would have a hard time keeping up because of the way you have to extract the Propofol from the bottle/suction.)


- Chernoff says prosecution doesn’t want to tell you that they want to convict Murray for the actions of Michael Jackson.  (Whoa.  Now I’m livid!)


- Chernoff said, Alvarez testimony talked about how hard it was for him then you learn that Alvarez has been offered 550k for a story.  He compares Alvarez telling police in June that all he did is call 911.  Yet in August he testified to hiding evidence for Murray, comforted Michael’s children, tried to breathe life into Michael. Claims Alvarez is going to cash in . . . Alvarez waits two months to tell police about the bottle in the saline bag, and said it was due to scheduling, but he was unemployed and couldn’t get work because of his involvement with the Jackson case.  (Alvarez testifies to working for Jacksons for two months before getting let go, which could account for the scheduling problem).


- Walgren addresses 911 recording that shows what Alvarez testified to helping Murray get Michael to the floor was impossible.  Alvarez testified to grabbing the bag but his fingerprints were not on the bag. The fingerprints were identifiable and they were not Alvarez’s.  No milky substance in bag, bag tested negative for any drug.  Michael Amir’s phone records reflect that Alvarez did not call Amir as no calls showed up on Amir’s phone.  (Good points here in Alvarez, all this is undebatably true.)



 Chernoff reminded Jurors that he asked Alverez if he could do all that in 30 seconds.  Alvarez’s response was ‘I’m efficient’.  Says prosecution doesn’t care because the bottle in the bag is the genesis of their infusion theory.  (very good point).


- No notes from Fleak on the bottle in the bag – she just remembers it 18 months later.  It did not appear on her reports.  (This was one of the fishiest parts of the coroner’s investigation).


- Detective Smith said he did not see a bottle in the bag) and referred to his notes.  He even put in his notes that he found a Lorazam bottle in a bag that holds an IV bag, he was that thorough but never saw a Propofol bottle in the slit IV bag.


- April 2011, They bring Alvarez in about a conversation about his testimony and changes his drawing about what he saw.  (Alvarez completely unbelievable at this point and Walgren makes a good point about him being coached).


- Chernoff is stopping just BARELY short of accusing the prosecution of coaching the witness about the vial in the bag at that April 2011 meeting with Alvarez.


- Cheroff shows that even if they go with the theory of the drip, picture of the bottle shows that Murray didn’t need the bottle in the bag, it had a hanging tab on it.  (This is also a complete slip up from the prosecution. The fact that the tab is still intact, never used and Murray would go through the trouble of slitting a bag instead of simply hanging it using the tab makes the prosecution’s theory make no sense at all.)


(Murray looks like he’s wearing makeup)


- Chernoff on the two IV line theory – “why the prosecution did that was because the problem was there was no way to show it was one tube because the tubing they had in evidence had no Propofol in it, it was clear.”  Both lines were vented, just one had the flap broken off.  The one IV line was too long and there was no Propofol in it so they had to come up with a second IV line theory.  (Chernoff is good at pointing this out.  He’s good at pointing out inconsistencies.  Walgren is good at repeating accusations until they become “truth” in the juror’s minds.  Both skilled with different tactics; Chernoff is attacking the inconsistencies, Walgren attacks the character of the witness/defendants).


- Chernoff said prosecution didn’t hire Shafer until two years after the crime.  He is a computer modeler and anesthesiologist, not a detective, and said “this is what happened” not that they were possibilities.  (I agree with this to a point.  Shafer had some good points, but Chernoff is right about his mixing of apples and oranges to try to make something stick).


- Chernoff said he wants to defend White.  “Scientists tell you what is possible but they don’t take positions – good scientist don’t do that, Schafer wasn’t being a scientist, Schafer was playing the advocate.”  White didn’t do that, he stated he would never have done what Murray did and was honest, Chernoff said.  (Both opposing attorneys vying for the integrity of their perspective experts.  I can identify with Chernoff on this because White is retired and he was completely beat up on the stand, mostly with information that was really irrelevant to what they were trying to prove.  I don’t like bullies and when I see someone getting bullied I have a tendency to call foul and I will stand up for them.  That is my crucible – well, one of many crucibles)


- None of Shafer’s models had anything to do with the facts in the case – they were all simulations and opinions.  No evidence of six injections, multiple milligrams of Propofol dripped or rapid bolus but no evidence in the trial.  Nobody ever said happened.  ( I disagree with this – ALL MODELS were simulations based on opinions, on both sides.)


- Shafer on cross-examination testified that it was impossible to determine dose from concentration because there are infinite possibilities.  (I remember this.  But White’s mistake was trying to do that with the urine levels asking another doctor to work it up on a program he was not familiar with.)


- Shows Shafer’s model of 10 Lorazapam shots, reason he came up with this simulation because there was an empty Lorazapam bottle at the scene.  10 shots every 30 minutes.  This is the same chart that is absent the line for responsive to painful stimuli.  Shafer showed shots beginning when Michael was still at staples center, so the next Day Shafer brings in a new model showing 9 shots.  (that was a slimy stunt.  I have to agree with Chernoff on that.  It wasn’t even based on fact so why did Shafer go through the trouble?)


- Chernoff reminded jurors that free Lorazapam was in the stomach which means Michael swallowed Lorazapam. Said prosecution didn’t want them to know that even though prosecution said it’s only a 32nd of a pill or 138th of a pill.  Chernoff said, but tablets dissolve and the medicine in them goes into the body.  After all that, Shafer did not show one oral Lorazapam simulation.  He said White did, and Shafer did not say anything about that on rebuttal.


- Chernoff said it again . . . don’t be afraid to say it . . . “prosecution wants you to convict Dr. Murray for the actions of Michael Jackson.  If it was anyone else besides Michael Jackson, Murray wouldn’t be sitting there.”  (This is almost word for word what Mesereau said to Jurors in the Michael Jackson trial in 2005, only Michael was the defendant on trial, sitting there through shoddy, falsified and corrupted evidence.  In 2005 Michael was on trial because he was Michael Jackson.  In 2011 Murray was on trial because the patient that died on his watch is Michael Jackson.)


- Chernoff makes a point on Murray’s patients, they’ve been patients for ten years but was last treated in 2003 or 2001 for a procedure. 


- Chernoff said the prosecution’s position is “Don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain”, that the doctors got up and looked down on Murray and said “I woudn’t have done that” and judge him without living in his shoes, but Kamangar, Shafer and Steinberg have never been in the shoes of Conrad Murray (this sounds just like Michael and what Michael would say.  I also could not believe Chernoff said “the man behind the curtain” and it really did not even fit into his statement with the rest of the sentence.  I marked it down as a veiled message – Curtain Call for Norma Jean).


- Murray’s greatest character flaw is his greatest strength.  He came into a situation believing he could help Michael, but he was wrong.  There was “too much going on in the background” and he was  “a little fish in a big dirty pond”.  (Michael is Murray, Murray is Michael???  Michael’s greatest character flaw is his greatest strength, according to Jermaine in his book.  OMGosh!  Parallels make it easier to look out the windows when traveling by train! That just made no doggone sense, did it?)


- Chernoff  - good point . . . “You’re a cardiologist trained in advanced life support, you come in and find our patient not breathing, eyes open and the first thing you do is call 911? Instead of reviving your patient?”  Even the other Dr.’s said they would take two to three minutes to revive.


- Chernoff says Murray tries to revive.  After 2 or three minutes administers Flumazenil the antidote for Lorazapam.  He runs downstairs and gets Kai chase, who knew something was wrong, because she tells prince that “something’s wrong with your father” and sends him upstairs, does NOT get security.  (That was cold.  I don’t ever want that woman near Michael again.  How could she?)


- Kai only had to go out the kitchen door about 30 feet to the security trailer and she didn’t do it.  (didn’t catch screen of picture because MOM CALLED!!!)


- Chernoff shows picture of the ambu-bag on the floor . .. asks “if he didn’t use it, why is it out?”  No evidence he did not use it.  Said during his statement to police that there was sufficient ventilation.


- Chernoff says all prosecution witnesses on board with Murray doing everything wrong.  (wait until you hear what’s coming . . . )


- Chernoff admonishes the prosecution identifying Michael’s children showing their pictures.  Says they didn’t have to bring in Nicole Alvarez in, to show what?  That she received packages of medication?  We had fed ex and Applied pharmacy receipts for that.  (I agree that this seemed to be a backdoor way to show Murray’s “personal life” which was supposed to be off limits, but this witness was allowed and Walgren was “allowed” to ask Murray’s patient Ruby Mosley about meeting Murray’s “female friends”.  She told him though, LOL! I love her!)


- Chernoff states that prosecution tried to show Murray ran from the hospital when what he did was take the direct route to the west wing for the press conference, video shows him there at 5:02.  Murray was the only one there without transportation because he rode in the ambulance.  Amir said to lock down the house he was so worried and had Faheem lie to Murray, but never said that to police.  Chernoff says again, “everybody’s on the team” “everyone is willing to go for it” (Murray’s throat? Playing into conspiracy?)


- Cheroff plays voicemail . . . Frank Dileo.  Frank says he’s “I’m Michael’s manager, the short guy with no hair . . . I think you know we had an episode last night, he’s sick and we need to get a blood test on him, we need to figure out what he’s doing.”  (Neither Kenny Ortega nor Frank Dileo in the email or voice mail refer directly to Michael as the man who is sick.  Ortega refers to “the artist” in his email forward, and Frank identifies himself as Michael’s manager, but doesn’t name him as the one who’s sick, “HE’S sick” and “test on HIM” and “figure out what HE’S doing.”)


- Chernoff said, It’s not really what he’s doing, it’s what’s being done to him. (Cryptic statement – and LOADED).


- Says Jackson under enormous pressure from AEG and appearances, not JUST related to visits to Klein’s.  (Here we bring in reference and can match it up to Gongaware’s “believed Michael’s problems originated from something OTHER than medications”  This is the tip of the iceberg).


- Chernoff said he did not give Michael a controlled substance, he gave him a medication for a specific medical condition.  Describes the prosecution describing Michael was like “a baby on a counter” and said that was the most insulting thing he could say about Michael Jackson.  (and saying Michael’s actions are what killed him isn’t insulting???  He’s not stupid and he’s NOT AN ADDICT!!!)  Michael Jackson is a grown man responsible for his children. He’s not incapable and he’s not a baby.  Chernoff states that if you are going to hold Murray responsible, don’t do it just because it is Michael Jackson.  (Cheap shot, but I also saw the parallel in this to Michael in 2005 – Mesereau – If you’re going to convict, don’t do it just because he’s Michael Jackson.”  I’m not sure those are the exact words Mesereau used, but we all know why Michael was really on trial.  At the beginning of this trial, Chernoff told Jurors that we are going to find out who Murray REALLY is . . . so?  Who is he?)


Mid afternoon Break.




Rebuttal Argument by Walgren


- Walgren gets his last licks in and starts with failures to act and actions of Conrad Murray.


- Walgren drives into jury unconscionable, grossly criminal negligent behavior.  (I’m sure he wanted to add more adjectives but the stenographer was complaining . . . just kidding).


- Walgren says “Poor Conrad Murray – everyone is to blame but Conrad Murray.”  I can’t believe it!  Walgren actually used the word “conspiracy” three times!  (Michae’s words . . . THANK YOU Walgren).


- Walgren uses the words “bizarre” for Conrad Murray’s conduct.  (???
“Everything he did was bizarre”.  (Michael Jackson’s cross he has now?)


- Walgren says, “It’s Michael Jackson’s fault”  “It’s everyone elses fault”  (This is exactly what music industry and media pundits said about Michael in regard to his album sales for Invincible – I can pull these up!)  Bizarre is used going on six times now. “Conspiracy” is used three or four times by Walgren.


- Walgren goes back to Alvarez and Fleak “just told you what they saw, this isn’t some conspiracy”  (but Fleak didn’t write it down in her report”  (He said this isn’t some “conspiracy” again).


- Walgren fumbled on his explanation of Shafer testifying that Michael could have reached up and loosened the roller clamp to resume Propofol drip, but followed up with “it is still the position of the prosecution that Murray committed criminal negligence, indifference.”  (how so if Michael did loosen roller clamps?  I don’t agree Michael did that, but we can’t have it both ways.)


- Walgren is saying Murray lied about suggesting the autopsy, lied about getting a welfare team together for the kids, that it was typical UCLA protocol.


- Walgren said “we cannot prove what happened behind those doors” . . . (if that is the case, you cannot convict – beyond the shadow of a doubt).  “If Murray cared so much for his welfare, actions speak far louder than words.”




Judge reads post trial deliberation instructions


Jury will deliberate tomorrow and we may actually have a verdict unless they are at it into next week.


I see some incredible parallel’s here to what Michael went through and what happened to him in 2005.  I also see a lot of veiled messages that are stuck in sentences that really do not fit into the arguments.


What I see, if I am right is this trial is a door to the next level.  I’m not sure if there is anything between here and September 2012 and the civil suit with AEG, but it will be interesting to see if there is an appeal of THIS case.


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Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 11:29:35 AM
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This is the vision of a person who does not believe that Michael is alive,...

- Thanks for sharing this ! Nice summary. Good observations.
I still feel for Chernoff  :lol: Defence was left with nothing in a way. He did what he could I think.
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Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 11:41:19 AM
my daughter addressed a few things yesterday that we may have to look deeper into:


She said in some parts of the police interview , Murray sounds like Michael..I kinda thought that also. the way some words were pronunciated.


Also, so much background noise...even for a hotel, there wouldnt be a "party" in the background...
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MissG

Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 01:35:08 PM
Walgren´s words :
-"bizarre, unethical, unconscionable behavior" .."That is why we are here."-

Ringing 2005 bells anyone?

I don´t know what will happen, but as the defense said (not 100% same words but same meaning) -"If would not have been MJ, would be Murray be sitted here today"-
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("Minkin güerveeeee")
Michael pls come back


"Why a four-year-old child could understand this hoax. Run out and find me a four-year-old child. I can't make head nor tail out of it"

Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 01:49:16 PM
latoyajackson La Toya Jackson
by VinniePolitan
@hlntv #MurrayTrial @issueswithjvm @vinniepolitan JUSTICE HAS TO BE SERVED ON MURRAY AND THEN WE MUST GO AFTER THE OTHER CONSPIRES!
Why don't she TELL what those other ones ARE???
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paula-c

Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 01:56:15 PM
FOR THE LOVE OF ELVIS
Dr. George Nichopoulos was charged by Memphis authorities with overprescribing drugs to Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis and nine others. While Dr. Nick, as he was known, was not charged with killing Elvis, ABC News reported that it was those prescription drugs that caused the singer’s death in 1977.

Neal’s own investigation found that Presley was getting illegal prescription drugs from several others when he couldn’t get them from Dr. Nick. He also learned that the doctor was switching many of Presley’s prescription meds with placebos in an effort to wean him from the addictive drugs.

“I discovered that if it were not for Dr. Nichopoulos, Elvis would have been dead years earlier,” says Neal. “The evidence showed that [Dr. Nick] was actually slowly reducing the amount of medicines he was giving to Elvis. He was the only person who truly cared for Elvis—a true Good Samaritan.”

While Neal had found his defense argument, he also recognized that the people of Memphis adored Presley. He wasn’t sure his client could get a fair trial due to juror prejudice. But to prove that the jury pool had been tainted, Neal hired a jury consultant to survey local citizens.

The results proved shocking. Two-thirds of Memphis residents blamed Presley himself for the drug overdose, while only one in five thought his doctor was respon­sible. Even more interesting to Neal was that only 12 percent of those polled believed that Presley’s phy­sician should have refused to treat him and should have turned the singer in to police. However, 70 percent be­lieved that the doctor should have continued treating Presley in an effort to reduce his drug dependence.

Needless to say, Neal decided to keep the trial in Memphis.

In the Dr. Nick case, as in all of his court victories, Neal waited to pounce on any prosecution mistake. The opportunity presented itself with the state’s key expert medical witness, who was called to criticize Nichopoulos’ method of treatment. On direct examination by prosecutors, the doctor testified that he had written many scholarly articles on this exact subject.

“We knew this guy was going to testify, so we checked him out at the Vanderbilt medical school library and could not find a single article he had published in any medical journal,” says Neal.

On cross-examination, Neal asked the state’s expert to name the journals in which he claimed to be published. When the witness couldn’t, Neal began naming prominent medical journals, forcing the doctor to answer no to each. He even asked the state’s witness to make phone calls during a court break to get the names of the journals. But even after the break, the expert testified he couldn’t remember the names.

“His entire testimony was discredited by that mistake,” Neal says.

The state’s expert never recovered and neither did the prosecution’s case. The five-week trial ended on Nov. 5, 1981, when the jury composed of six men and six women took only three hours to find Nichopoulos not guilty on all counts.
 
Neal admits he’s slowing down a bit. He wants to refocus his practice on helping the younger lawyers at his firm to become better trial lawyers. Asked why he thinks he’s had the privilege of trying so many high-profile and fascinating cases, Neal pauses, and then offers the briefest of explanations:

“Just damn luck. That’s all it has been.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 02:27:16 PM
WOW.  Really good posts here you guys. So many great observances.  respect/
Phrases phrases everywhere... I laugh every time I hear one such as This Is It, or man behind the curtain, Conman Murry etc. which is not a bad thing because for me dead or alive, emotions are riding high.  errrr There's so many flash backs to 2005. We all want Michael's name & reputation cleared & of course this trial brings up all the unhealed wounds of the past. But if MJ IS dead or was killed... WHO would be able to run this show with all the information, dates, & delays and STILL make the numerology etc line up? NO ONE. There's NO WAY someone else would be able to know everything MJ has been working on for all these yrs; pick it up and run with it as a prank or cover up... NO WAY.  suspicious//

HLN is running the verdict clock and emotions are running high among the fans. Lots of yelling back & forth between MJ fans and Murray supporters. Some are not being very nice.  argue/
It's been over 3 hrs. Nov 4 + 3 hrs = 7... still no verdict.  /judge/ So can we assume maybe this will be a SEVEN hour deliberation? that brings up some interesting numbers. Nov = 11th month.  It's now Nov 4th. 4+7hrs deliberation = 11. 11,11,11 That may be totally bogus, but my mind is doing all kinds of crazy combos with numbers anymore...so who knows. "Remember remember the 5th of November"... ok, but that's tomorrow, a Sat. The Jury wont deliberate as far as I know bc they are not sequestered. Would they do so voluntarily??? It's an important date so SOMETHING will happen; it has to. That brings us to Monday; Nov 7th.  Does 11-7 or 11-7-11 mean anything to anyone?  Is there anyone that beLIEves this will drag on till Nov 11th? Highly doubtful.


Will you be there?  YES always & forever.
 bearhug
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Fide Et Opera

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sigh

Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 02:38:53 PM
RE the "pay not attention to the man behind the curtain"


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXhAQS-p9yM[/youtube]

@45:35

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paula-c

Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 02:52:30 PM
The family can influence the verdict, in fact perhaps  is the idea to be repeating since 2 years ago that Michael had problems with drugs
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Re: TIAI September 27
November 04, 2011, 02:57:53 PM
On HLN; Katherine has just been summoned to the Court House for "Stand by".   /judge/
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Fide Et Opera

 

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