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Quote from: "bec"QuoteIn any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility. 1. The body didn't fool anyone, because the EMT's actually said the body looked like it was dead for hours. We haven't heard anything from the hospital staff, so we don't know their opinion on the body. And if the person commited assisted suicide, it can be planned on a certain date, and there would also be time (if necessary) to make the patient look a little more like MJ. But not really that much, since the EMT's had NO CLUE it was him, meaning he didnt look like him.2. We don't know if there has been a heartbeat. That was reported and also denied. But even IF there was activity, it could be because the resuscitation efforts. Even a dead heart can show activity again after endless CPR and electric shocks. It has to do with the muscles that are triggered. I am no medical expert so maybe I am explaining it wrong, so if someone knows exactly how this works, please correct me.
QuoteIn any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... _death.htm If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology.2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login ... ful-death/ also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility.
Quote from: "dom425"Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?Wow, now that's food for thought. I think that's an excellent defense to use......... But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense. Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. :oops:Michael likes to be different and go beyond what everybody else has done. Elvis' doctor went to trial and was found not guilty...if MJ wanted to make his trial even better than that he could make that Murray's defense just that...who knows?About the media, some might look at the clues like you said and realize MJ is alive...but the fans might not, they already think Murray is already rubbing salt in the wound by 'following' Janet, walking down the street like nothing happened etc.Or maybe Murray's defense will be that MJ killed himself, if this is supposed to be a contrast to MJ's trial in 2005.
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?Wow, now that's food for thought. I think that's an excellent defense to use......... But then again what if that's not in Michael's plan.I think the media would go crazy if Murray used Michael faking his death as a defense. Maybe the media will stop and take a good look at all of the clues that were in front of their faces this whole time.Hey! Michael could be planning to wake the media and in turn wake the whole world by using the hoax as Murray's defense. Now I feel like I've gone to deep into this. :oops:
I was just thinking why are we trying to prove (something that could stand up in court) that this is a hoax just before the trial?...is it that Murray's defense will be that MJ is alive?
Quote from: "bec"Quote from: "fordtocarr"This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up. I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)That's really the bottom line in my opinion.This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology. 2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility. Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.Either Docs at UCLA were:1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary) But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim. So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???Response to your #2 point bec.QuoteTS wrote5-8. Zone for MJ InfoAnother TMZ article, just a few days before, was titled: “Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA” You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. Here again, if you accept the whole story, then forget the hoax; because the whole story is discussing when MJ died (at home, or UCLA)—it’s not discussing if MJ died.Or you can connect the dots, and recognize that “Michael was alive” is the main clue—and much of the rest is unnamed or unverified “sources”. Anything that is not readily verifiable, and especially anything that is unnamed “sources”, should go straight in the garbage.This is part of what Michael is trying to teach us. We are not to blindly trust tabloid media—or even mainstream media. Yet, just like TMZ, at times there is reliable and valuable information in the media.For example, video interviews; it is very easy to fabricate false information in writing, but it is much harder to fabricate a video interview with someone. And even if someone did create a fake video interview (using a double, or a computer-generated image, etc): the real person would probably hear about it, and deny that it was really him.And at this point, I should mention that as far as possible: TIAI Revealed, and the Updates, have used the above mentioned and similar types of reliable sources for information. So don’t accept something just because TIAI says it; but on the other hand, don’t fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources and documentation. Rejecting reliable information isn’t much if any better (maybe worse) than accepting unreliable information. Some people believe everything (gullible), others believe nothing (stubborn); if we want the truth, we must find a balance between those extremes.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote from: "fordtocarr"This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up. I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)That's really the bottom line in my opinion.This is, at least in part, mission repair-image, right? Real body is counterproductive to that mission.All for L.O.V.E. with a dead dude... doesn't really work.And anyway, all I'm reading is elaborate theories to make the real body work out in the chain of events.Why??? What does a corpse accomplish? Besides complicating matters, what is the benefit? I have yet to read anything that addresses a benefit to using a real corpse over a dummy or nothing at all.In any case, I have provided 2 strong arguments against a real body that I haven't seen countered yet.1. A real, long dead and thawed out corpse wouldn't fool anyone in the medical profession. Forensic science makes that an impossibility You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login If any corpse was used, it would have to be at minimum many hours old, a freshly dead corpse being used is ruled out by the numerology. 2. Reports from March 2010 that MJ had a heartbeat at UCLA You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login also rules out the use of a corpse as this would be considered a medical miracle of modern science to revive a thawed out, long dead corpse in ER, akin to a statistical impossibility. Saying, "well the FBI are involved so that makes anything possible" is a cop out, in my opinion. I almost wish the FBI thing was thrown out of the discussion because it's like saying "well they used magical powers so anything is possible"... we might as well throw all logic and common sense out the table if we are to fall back on FBI involvement every time we hit a roadblock in hypothesis.Either Docs at UCLA were:1. Fooled (ruled out by point #1)2. Unaware (kept on need-to-know basis, "the patient did not make it"-end of briefing, leaves no trace)3. In On It (any body totally unnecessary) But I believe at least Dr. Cooper needs to be in on it, as he/she has made statements (refer to point #1) and has sat on the stand at Prelim. So I pose the open question again, who would the use of a real body be trying to fool???
This is a great theory, but I'm thinking about the end of the hoax, and I just CANNOT see Michael explaining it by, "I used a REAL dead person to hoax my own death". I can't see how the world would view him and his hoax and return then. If he was ever viewed as wacko this would surely blow the world up. I know you'll all totally disagree, but a REAL dead person and Michael Jackson? They'll say he did it for all the money he made and used a real dead man to do it.Sorry, it may be correct, but, I think he's in for real public backlash if he did that and it comes out. And it will have to be explained not only for us believers, but really for the non believers to believe it's really him.(I know I'll hear it on this, but sorry....)
TS wrote5-8. Zone for MJ InfoAnother TMZ article, just a few days before, was titled: “Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA” You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. Here again, if you accept the whole story, then forget the hoax; because the whole story is discussing when MJ died (at home, or UCLA)—it’s not discussing if MJ died.Or you can connect the dots, and recognize that “Michael was alive” is the main clue—and much of the rest is unnamed or unverified “sources”. Anything that is not readily verifiable, and especially anything that is unnamed “sources”, should go straight in the garbage.This is part of what Michael is trying to teach us. We are not to blindly trust tabloid media—or even mainstream media. Yet, just like TMZ, at times there is reliable and valuable information in the media.For example, video interviews; it is very easy to fabricate false information in writing, but it is much harder to fabricate a video interview with someone. And even if someone did create a fake video interview (using a double, or a computer-generated image, etc): the real person would probably hear about it, and deny that it was really him.And at this point, I should mention that as far as possible: TIAI Revealed, and the Updates, have used the above mentioned and similar types of reliable sources for information. So don’t accept something just because TIAI says it; but on the other hand, don’t fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources and documentation. Rejecting reliable information isn’t much if any better (maybe worse) than accepting unreliable information. Some people believe everything (gullible), others believe nothing (stubborn); if we want the truth, we must find a balance between those extremes.
PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?
Quote from: "curls"PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax.
Quote from: "PureLove"Quote from: "curls"PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax. (The coroner is in on it)For the rest, why?The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.
Quote from: "bec"Quote from: "PureLove"Quote from: "curls"PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax. (The coroner is in on it)For the rest, why?The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.IMO the ones who did the autopsy probably do not know about the hoax and a dead body would be useful again. The doctors at UCLA saw someone arrived dead with a different name. I see that a dead body would minimize the number of people who could be in on the hoax.
Quote from: "PureLove"Quote from: "bec"Quote from: "PureLove"Quote from: "curls"PureLove, like I just said, if you believe a few key people knew about the hoax, why would you need to present them with a body?The dead body wasn't used for the ones who already knew about the hoax but it was used for the ones who were not in on the hoax. If there was no dead body, the coroner, the EMTs, many hospital staff, LAFD and more needed to know about the hoax. (The coroner is in on it)For the rest, why?The patient did not make it. High profile. They saw nothing. They know nothing more. Done.IMO the ones who did the autopsy probably do not know about the hoax and a dead body would be useful again. The doctors at UCLA saw someone arrived dead with a different name. I see that a dead body would minimize the number of people who could be in on the hoax.What leads you to believe that the autopsy is real? I don't believe it is real. I believe it was fabricated. The information on the multiple pages does not all match each other, a simple example, the listed height of the subject.No doctors other then Dr. Cooper have come forward to say they saw someone dead bearing the name Michael Jackson. No staff at UCLA either. No one at the coroner's office has come forward either. Not one person.
What leads you to believe that the autopsy is real? I don't believe it is real. I believe it was fabricated. The information on the multiple pages does not all match each other, a simple example, the listed height of the subject.No doctors other then Dr. Cooper have come forward to say they saw someone dead bearing the name Michael Jackson. No staff at UCLA either. No one at the coroner's office has come forward either. Not one person.
Feel free, anyone, to poke holes in it and we can go from there. At no point in The Scenario, do I see a requirement for a real body, which begs the question, if a real body is not necessary, what would the benefit be to using one at all?
Btw, Im_, you also conveniently chose to quote the one post (I have been repeating myself on this thread admittedly) where I continued point 2 to include that if the reports are false that indicates that the Dr. is lying and if he/she is lying then he/she is in on it anyway so WHO IS THE DEAD BODY DESIGNED TO FOOL.
bec wrote:Oh for god sake don't you think I know that as well as you do? How about the reports of the warm room? What's that, gospel? How about the paramedics' statements? They are the straight dope? How about when LaToya says "Michael was murdered". Is that accurate?With all due respect Im_convinced, save your lecture for someone who deserves it. Don't patronize me.
Souza wrote:ambulance driver (does anyone know who that was? I only heard 2 names and 3 were present)
Official General Prelim Discussion threadYou are not allowed to view links. Register or LoginThen you have the witness list (see thread link above) of who testified at the pre-lim in regards to Dr. Cooper and the paramedics that showed up that day and transported the body to the hospital. Now after the jury questionnaire has been released, (see link below) it shows the full potential witness list. All 3 of the paramedics are confirmed. These are the ones who showed up that day. Richard Senneff FF/PM, Martin Blount FF/PM and Jeffrey Mills Fire Captain. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
There is a timeline link below that shows how far back some issues started and caused faulty infusion pumps to be recalled.
ANTHONY McCARTNEY,AP Entertainment WriterLOS ANGELES (AP) - Before paramedics wheeled Michael Jackson into the emergency room, Dr. Richelle Cooper was sure he was dead.More than an hour of resuscitation efforts at the Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center didn't change her opinion -- the King of Pop had died in the bedroom of his rented mansion.Based on what Jackson's personal physician told her, though, she didn't quite know why.Murray told her he had seen Jackson stop breathing and immediately started CPR, but prosecutors say that's not what happened. Instead, over three days and a dozen witnesses at a preliminary hearing, they have put forth a timeline in which Jackson died in the bedroom of his rented mansion and Murray delayed calling 911 to conceal his actions.Cooper testified she authorized paramedics to pronounce Jackson dead at 12:57 p.m., but they declined at Murray's request and because of the singer's celebrity. After an ambulance ride trailed by paparazzi and more than an hour of efforts in the ER, Cooper officially pronounced Jackson dead at 2:26 p.m. on June 25, 2009.She said that Murray never told her he had given Jackson the anesthetic propofol, which Cooper said she typically uses in the ER for patients with head trauma or serious injuries.The Houston-based cardiologist charged in Jackson's death also didn't mention several other sedatives he administered, which Cooper said could have amplified the propofol's effects and caused Jackson to stop breathing before his heart stopped beating.With Cooper and another UCLA doctor, prosecutors have elicited testimony from five witnesses who said Murray either never mentioned the all the drugs he had given Jackson, or tried to conceal them.Paramedic Martin Blount, who also testified Thursday, said he saw Murray scoop up three vials of the painkiller lidocaine from the floor of Jackson's bedroom during resuscitation efforts. Blount said he was surprised to see the medications because Murray had told him that he hadn't given the singer any drugs.Murray's attorney, Joseph Low IV, did not even question Blount's description of the lidocaine, although another defense attorney pointedly questioned the UCLA doctors about whether candid disclosures from the doctor would have saved Jackson.Cooper said while it wouldn't have changed her efforts to revive Jackson, knowing that Murray had given the singer several sedatives and propofol would have added to her understanding of why the singer had died."I would be concerned particularly if there were other medications given, that it would lead to a respiratory arrest, which would lead to a cardiac arrest," Cooper said.Nicole Alvarez, a girlfriend Murray called while riding in the ambulance to UCLA, has been ordered to appear in court on Friday. The hearing will also feature detectives, coroner's officials and experts on propofol's effects in the coming days.
Judge Michael Pastor, who will decide whether the case proceeds to trial, also heard from two physicians at Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center who treated Jackson in the emergency room.Dr. Richelle Cooper, who supervised his treatment, testified that Murray said he had "witnessed the patient arrest," which she took to mean that he had been in the room when Jackson stopped breathing. She said that when she asked him what had happened, he mentioned the singer's grueling rehearsal schedule."Dr. Murray reported the patient had been in his usual state of health, not ill, but had been working very hard, and he thought he may be dehydrated," she said.Dr. Thao Nguyen said Murray appeared "devastated" and "asked me not to give up easily and try my best to save the patient." Both doctors said that when they asked about what medication he had administered to the singer, Murray mentioned the sedative lorazepam but not propofol.