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Grace

Re: TIAI April 11
April 18, 2011, 11:59:41 PM
Quote from: "PureLove"
What kind of helicopter flies with an open door for God's sake?  :lol:  It was too obvious that they were trying to show us the moving body inside the helicopter. :)

I have seen other footage of LASD Rescue 5 chopper rides when they had the door wide open, too.
My first thought in Michael's footage was also "why for heaven's sake?" but they seem to enjoy rides like that in L.A. Appears to be a local pleasure to fly door open.

[youtube:37r8btgn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSRp96Ep0K8&feature=related[/youtube:37r8btgn]
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[youtube:37r8btgn]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0tmWCfrjAs&feature=related[/youtube:37r8btgn]
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Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Create your day. Create the most astounding year of your life. Be the change you want to see in the world! L.O.V.E.
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Im_convincedmjalive

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Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 01:39:05 AM

"At 1811 hours, rigor mortis was not present throughout the body."

That is 6:11 p.m. That is the time E. Fleak’s looked at the body still at the hospital. The body supposedly died before going to the hospital. So hypothetically the body was dead before the 911 call at 12:21 p.m. Let’s say the death happened at 12 noon for this example. That is also in the autopsy report as the time Murray found MJ not breathing.

So the body is dead about 6 hours. Rigor can start anywhere from 30 minutes to 3 hours and spreads throughout the whole body in approximately 6 to 12 hours, before receding again after another 6 to 12 hours. E. Fleak’s states rigor is not present throughout the body at 6:11 p.m. That would be about 6 hours if the body had rigor start in 30 minutes.

Rigor should have been present throughout the body according to the info and I am going with the least amount of time. The feet are still moveable at this point because no rigor throughout the body and can be positioned in the upright position we see on the body being transported. Also in the video the feet appear to be tied by something which would keep them in position. By the time the coroner started the autopsy the next day at 10:00 a.m. the body had already gone through rigor mortis and then receded. Dead body 12 noon, 12 hours later midnight, 10 hours later autopsy. Meaning the body wasn’t stiff.

How do you think an autopsy is done? It is done on a body that can move and can easily be cut into. When I say ice it is slang I don’t mean frozen stiff. Cadavers are used for every possible research for surgical reasons and more. Podiatry research uses cadaver feet to know how to perform surgery correctly. They are not going to cut open a living human for this research and certainly not going to perform surgery with out knowing where things are in the feet or how certain positions affect their surgical procedures.

Therefore they perform research on cadaver feet and move them in positions to figure out which is the best when performing the surgery. :ugeek:

Now going to the cadaver theory being used from the house to UCLA to coroner. This cadaver had already died, was refrigerated to prevent/slow down decomp, can be used out of refrigeration for up to 10 hrs, won’t actually go through rigor because it has been dead long enough that it already went through that process, the heat in the room made the cooling of the body slow down and appear more fresh with a warm temp to the touch. This is not a frozen cadaver. 8-)  

By the time the paramedics got to it; it is movable. Then at UCLA (according to the info on rigor) hospital staff and E. Fleak would think the cadaver is going through the normal process as if the cadaver had just died. By the time the coroner did the autopsy he thought normal process of rigor and receded had happened. It makes sense because of when he did the autopsy that he waited for the body to be movable. I am still going with the least amount of time for rigor in my theory.
8-)
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Methods
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Two approaches to the problem of accessing and measuring the kinematics of individual anatomical structures in the foot have been taken, (i) static and dynamic cadaver models, and (ii) invasive in-vivo research. Cadaver models offer the advantage that there is complete access to all the tissues of the foot, but the cadaver must be manipulated and loaded in a manner which replicates how the foot would have performed when in-vivo. The key value of invasive in-vivo foot kinematics research is the validity of the description of foot kinematics, but the key difficulty is how generalisable this data is to the wider population.
Results
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Through these techniques a great deal has been learnt. We better understand the valuable contribution mid and forefoot joints make to foot biomechanics, and how the ankle and subtalar joints can have almost comparable roles. Variation between people in foot kinematics is high and normal. This includes variation in how specific joints move and how combinations of joints move. The foot continues to demonstrate its flexibility in enabling us to get from A to B via a large number of different kinematic solutions.

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Abstract
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Calcaneocuboid fusion with lengthening of the lateral column of the foot has been advocated as a method of treating flatfoot deformity. This study was designed to determine how the length of the lateral column chosen or the position of the foot selected when performing this fusion affect hindfoot kinematics in normal cadaver feet. An electromagnetic tracking system was used to monitor the positions of the talus, calcaneus, navicular, and cuboid while the intact cadaver feet were moved passively and then under reproducible loads.

Calcaneocuboid fusion was then performed on these feet first with the feet in neutral position and the lateral column of normal length, then lengthened 10 mm or shortened 5 mm, and then with the lateral column lengthened 10 mm and the feet positioned in plantar flexion and eversion or dorsiflexion and inversion. Kinematic measurements were made at each stage using the same loads. Fusing the calcaneocuboid joint with lengthening or shortening the lateral column and the feet in neutral position did not affect hindfoot joint motion compared with intact. Changing the position of the foot for fusion, however, resulted in significant decreases in motion in the talocalcaneal and talonavicular joints. Tibiotalar joint motion was unaffected. This study, therefore, demonstrates that when fusing the calcaneocuboid joint, attention should be paid to maintaining a neutral position of the foot.
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all4loveandbelieve

Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 03:48:02 AM
Quote from: "Grace"
Quote from: "PureLove"
What kind of helicopter flies with an open door for God's sake?  :lol:  It was too obvious that they were trying to show us the moving body inside the helicopter. :)

I have seen other footage of LASD Rescue 5 chopper rides when they had the door wide open, too.
My first thought in Michael's footage was also "why for heaven's sake?" but they seem to enjoy rides like that in L.A. Appears to be a local pleasure to fly door open.

[youtube:oz2fl9a4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSRp96Ep0K8&feature=related[/youtube:oz2fl9a4]
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[youtube:oz2fl9a4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0tmWCfrjAs&feature=related[/youtube:oz2fl9a4]
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Sorry but that is not security. How about if  stretcher would have  rolled out of the open door?  You might think the stretcher is secure but it could just roll out the big opening. Then what? They have a weird sense of security.blessings.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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I'm happy to be alive, I'm happy to be who I am.
Michael Jackson

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GINAFELICIA

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Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 05:26:32 AM
Quote from: "SoldierofLOVE"
A good friend of mine who's a nurse says that in the helicopter transport,  "when somebody dies they don't die with their feet totally erect. If you look at that body the feet are straight up."  :o
In this case it was a dummy in the helicopter. But this means the "body" didn't move in the helicopter... - it was just an optical illusion.
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MJhasSpoken

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Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 06:46:34 AM
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.
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PureLove

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Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 10:12:09 AM
Quote from: "Grace"

I have seen other footage of LASD Rescue 5 chopper rides when they had the door wide open, too.
My first thought in Michael's footage was also "why for heaven's sake?" but they seem to enjoy rides like that in L.A. Appears to be a local pleasure to fly door open.

 :lol:  
I see no dead body inside the helicopter. On Michael's case, I still believe they did it on purpose for people to realize the supposed dead body move. :)
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GINAFELICIA

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Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 10:27:46 AM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

right :?
ahhhh, I don't know what to think now.
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Andrea

Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 11:00:49 AM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

Who knows, maybe the paramedic portrayers were also the helicopter people too.  Maybe like the This Is It dancers also acting as funeral ushers.  We could be dealing with a limited number of players in the hoax - and each of them has more than one role.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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bec

Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 11:31:39 AM
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

I don't follow this logic at all. It's wrapped in a sheet. They're not going to go poking around in it if they're under the impression that it's a corpse. So long as "the body" has the right weight and dimensions, no one involved in the helicopter scene would suspect a thing.
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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Are you entertained?

Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

I don't follow this logic at all. It's wrapped in a sheet. They're not going to go poking around in it if they're under the impression that it's a corpse. So long as "the body" has the right weight and dimensions, no one involved in the helicopter scene would suspect a thing.


If they were'nt involved in the hoax, this is Michael Jackson we're talking about! And only wrapped in a sheet! Not secured in a unopenable solid cement box! Damn straight they'd take a peek!They have to be a part of it, like someone said they could be playing more than one part only.
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Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 11:41:26 AM
Quote from: "bec"
Quote from: "MJhasSpoken"
If we are saying it is a dummy, then that means the people in the helicopter know about the hoax as well...everyone who came in contact with the body from the helicopter to the Coroner.

I don't follow this logic at all. It's wrapped in a sheet. They're not going to go poking around in it if they're under the impression that it's a corpse. So long as "the body" has the right weight and dimensions, no one involved in the helicopter scene would suspect a thing.
Thats a strong possibility...another possibility is they could have been told it was a dummy serving as a distraction while the "real" body was being transported by van or some other method. In this case they would know it was a dummy, but would not suspect that Michael was alive. It sure would explain the disrespectful way they plopped the body onto the strecher.  :evil:

My opinion is that there was a dead body but at some point in the hospital it got switched with a dummy. OOORRR it could have gotten switched in the helicopter. I vaguely remember something about there being TWO sheet covered "bodies" in the helicopter. *skips back to my safe padded cell*
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~Souza~

Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 11:56:28 AM
I think we're a step ahead here. I agree that there would be a risk that the helicopter people would take a peek, but if  they are not involved, it doesn't mean they didn't transport a dummy or even a living person (who can sit up). They might have told them that MJ would be transported in another way for safety reasons, and that they needed to take a dummy/other person with them to distract the media. They positioned the body in the wrong place anyway, on the chairs for the crew instead of the stretcher, so we already know they didn't transport a real dead body.

I think we should focus on the ambulance first. Who was in the house, who was in the ambulance and who knows?
Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest
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~Souza~

Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 11:57:59 AM
Quote from: "StrangerInCalifornia"
Thats a strong possibility...another possibility is they could have been told it was a dummy serving as a distraction while the "real" body was being transported by van or some other method. In this case they would know it was a dummy, but would not suspect that Michael was alive. It sure would explain the disrespectful way they plopped the body onto the strecher.  :evil:

Exactly, same thoughts.
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bec

Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: "~Souza~"
I think we're a step ahead here. I agree that there would be a risk that the helicopter people would take a peek, but if  they are not involved, it doesn't mean they didn't transport a dummy or even a living person (who can sit up). They might have told them that MJ would be transported in another way for safety reasons, and that they needed to take a dummy/other person with them to distract the media. They positioned the body in the wrong place anyway, on the chairs for the crew instead of the stretcher, so we already know they didn't transport a real dead body.

I think we should focus on the ambulance first. Who was in the house, who was in the ambulance and who knows?

Thanks for the reminder, that's right, we forgot that part.

We may be ahead of ourselves but only because our Thread Starter hasn't returned to weigh in on the countless theories we have presented here.

I think we have made fine progress on our own, we just don't agree on what's proof and what's debunked. We never have in 22 months been able to reach a unanimous conclusion about any step of this hoax solo so why would that change now?  ;)

I mean, I have my own ideas and theories that I am confident in at this stage, and I'm sure each of you reading this can say the same, but when it comes to a collective mindset; that continues to allude us.
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Re: TIAI April 11
April 19, 2011, 12:08:24 PM
But, honestly, do we have to agree?  And what does agreeing get us?  Even if we attain answers that TS wants us to find, what do we get??  I think there are tons of reasons for doing all this, but I doubt that we'll ever agree.  That's why God made us all different.  To be ourselves.  Besides, it won't bring Michael back sooner, and what if when we get close to agreeing or figuring things out, he changes them?  HUMMM  :D
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