TIAI March 9

[MJhasSpoken]

I know this has been asked again and again but where exactly are we up to in this thread.

So the rectangle? We don't know

If the paramedics are involved? We don't know

Proving the leaf pattern is PS or not PS? We don't know

[GINAFELICIA]

I know this has been asked again and again but where exactly are we up to in this thread.

So the rectangle? We don't know

If the paramedics are involved? We don't know

Proving the leaf pattern is PS or not PS? We don't know

The paramedics are involved - I think.

The rest - I don't know.

TS, I don't know if I've been conditioned or not, the fact is that I would like to see you back.

[GINAFELICIA]

!!! He was the which  manipulated the photo of the ambulance "  :lol:

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  that´s why the "leaf" pattern

Now we're finally getting somewhere! On to the next hoax project I hope.

 :lol:

I see the gorilla really knows how to use an Apple.....
....life was way much easier when apple was just a fruit  :lol:

[mjsmyheart]

Hello to all,
I’m relatively new here so this is my first post; however I have been following for quite some time so I ask that you please bare with me because I have come across so much info regarding this hoax and I’m not sure where to start other that with the topic at hand.

RIP Liz.  

I am going to let you in on another little secret.  The leaf pattern is not the most important part of the investigation.  Then why did I start with that, and why do I repeatedly bring it up?  Because it is a very good example of how to investigate—and more importantly, how NOT to investigate.  And in this one sense, the leaf pattern is extremely important.  Because if you use the wrong methods with the leaf pattern, then you will probably use wrong methods in other areas of investigation—and that is when it becomes very important.

Take for example the face that people have seen in the leaf pattern.  It is great to have and use good imagination in investigation; we should imagine any and all possibilities, on everything that we are examining.  It is okay to imagine a face, or letters, OR LEAVES!!!  But don’t stop at that point!  Once you have a theory, then you need to try and DEBUNK YOUR OWN THEORY!  And let others try to debunk it.

And if you come up with a theory that has at least two strong points in support of it, and nobody can debunk those strong points; and if nobody can come up with any other strong theories: then you PROBABLY have found the truth.  It is easy to see what we want to see; but it’s not always easy to see the truth.  MJ wants us to learn how to see the truth: “the truth will prevail”!

What I get from reading TS comments post is that he wants us to establish a solid theory that cannot be dismissed/debunked by any open-minded non-believer (although I don’t believe we are supposed to convince anyone) to the point of where there is little to no doubt starting with the possible “leaf pattern” regardless of its relevance to the whole hoax. Although this pattern has been discussed on several occasions, I haven’t seen many people trying to debunk many theories regardless of whether you agree on not. I believe that this is the goal TS and Michael are trying to achieve through this lesson... in other words when you go to school you are taught that this is the reason for that with no ifs, ands or buts about it (example: if I put 2 fingers up on my right hand and 2 fingers up on my left I will always have 4 fingers up, with no ifs, ands or buts about it) - I hope that makes since. Instead what I noticed is because of the lack of knowledge in areas such as photoshop for example people just agree with other peoples theories without fully challenging it and educating themselves in the process (which is partly what the hoax is about... as far as we know.)

Take for example the shadows on the red car.  This is one strong point, nobody has debunked, on why the ambulance photo was staged.  But this is not the only strong point, in support of the photo being staged.  Furthermore, even with the shadow, I added a second and closer picture of the shadow versus sunshine on the front left wheel area {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.  So there are two strong evidences of the shadow aspect alone; and the shadow aspect alone is only one of more than two strong points about the ambulance photo being fake (and staged).  This is how you build strong investigation.

Nobody has yet even made a serious attempt to debunk the shadow differences on the red car.  Souza said maybe a local whirlwind; but of course she was just joking.  It is theoretically possible, but very unlikely; furthermore, even if there was a whirlwind, we could probably find evidences of it in the video and/or the series of still pictures (with a whirlwind, even a split second would make a big difference in the shadows on the car—and you could probably hear it in the audio track).

Also, being early afternoon, the sun would be high in the sky; so something moving on the ground would not be in the right position to block the sunlight on the red car.  It would have to be something in the sky; but clouds move too slowly to change the shadows that much in a few seconds.  Maybe an airplane flew by just at the right second to block the sun!  Again, extremely unlikely; and even if that’s what happened, you could probably hear it (and/or see evidences of the shadow moving rapidly, while the pap was running with the camera).

I’m not trying to go back and discuss the red car and shadows again in great detail; but I am trying to show an example of solid investigation.  Some have mentioned over-analyzing (the leaf pattern, etc).  Many people are not used to heavy investigation; and if they don’t want to do it here, that is their choice.  But the leaf pattern certainly has not been over analyzed, at least not in the sense of going way beyond establishing a solid theory—because NO solid theory has been established yet!  It is possible that with some things, we will not be able to establish any solid theory; and if something comes to that, then so be it.  But I don’t think we are at that point yet with the leaf pattern.

I already gave four strong points why it’s not a part of the background image {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}.  However, did anyone give two or more strong reasons in support of there being an intentional face in the image (and not an imaginary face, like seeing things in the clouds)?  Did anyone try to debunk the face idea?  Did anyone try to debunk the theory that the pattern is Photoshopped?  And were there at least two strong reasons why it is Photoshopped?

Could it be a reflection of natural leaves during the staged photo shoot?  That would answer why they don’t move with the background image (red car); but it would probably indicate an outdoor staging, which would be an unnecessary high risk.  Also, in that case the pattern should overlap the paramedics arm (not go behind it).

Did anyone try to debunk the idea that it is an intentional leaf image?  Did anyone notice that in my very first post about it, I referred to is as “a leaf-like pattern” {You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login}?  Has anyone noticed that the leaf shapes are somewhat random, and not very artistic?  This would be expected if it was a reflection of natural leaves; but the reflection theory has some problems.

Could it be nothing more than an optical illusion, resulting from the combination of multiple lights and shadows—all bouncing off of the somewhat random, yet mostly circular ambulance interior pattern?  If you take two overlapping circles, the area that overlaps will be shaped roughly like a leaf.  Has anyone noticed that the “stem” of the main leaf pattern goes vertical, in exactly the place where the paramedics arm shadow hits the ambulance compartment wall?

I am giving far more questions here than answers; but again, far more important than the leaf pattern itself, is how we approach the process of investigation.  Yet it may have a degree of significance, in the current question of whether or not ambulance #71 was used for the staged photo (and therefore whether at least some of the paramedics are involved in the hoax).

I do want to get back to the paramedics, the FBI, etc; and hopefully we can move on to a new level soon.  But I really felt that most people still were not getting the basic concept of critical analysis.  I hope that it comes through clearer now, and that we will not forget to challenge our own theories—this is the only way that we can expect the truth to prevail!  

Here is my theory based upon TS comments last post:

To me the more I look at the face in the leaves, the more it resembles various other famous pictures of MJ including the one of him lying on the stretcher in the hoax photo but without the mouth piece (I can create a image if needed, I just can’t do it from my laptop at this time.) Now, although there is no definite way to prove that the image within the “leaf-like pattern” is a image of MJ, I believe the odds are extremely rare for one, that the leaves just so happened the be positioned in a way that resembles several of MJ’s pics within a picture of Michael Jackson.

Secondly, when I looked up the info on seeing things in the clouds this is what I found: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login According to this article “Carl Sagan hypothesized that as a survival technique, human beings are "hard-wired" from birth to identify the human face. This allows people to use only minimal details to recognize faces from a distance and in poor visibility but can also lead them to interpret random images or patterns of light and shade as being faces.”
Based upon this info, I am further convinced that it is more likely than not that the image that appears in the hoax photo was in fact manipulated into the photo because as stated above “people use only minimal details to recognize faces” and the face in the “leaf-like pattern” doesn’t just resemble any face, it resembles several photos of Michael. Furthermore, the picture actually looks more like Michael the closer you get to it vs. looking at it from a distance and the visibility in the picture I would not consider poor because you can see the difference in the shadowing and details such as where it disappears behind other objects which could not be distinguished if the picture was low quality (keep in mind this picture was supposedly taken with a high quality camera, so what are the odds of it producing a low quality photo in just that part of the picture anyways?)

In regards to it possibly being a reflection, I also researched a little on reflections and learned there are three types of reflections:
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login this site actually gives a little demo of how each type works)
1. Diffuse Reflection occurs when light strikes rough surfaces, such as pavement, foliage, clothing and vehicles. These surfaces cause the light beams to scatter in all directions.
2. Mirror Reflection occurs when light strikes surfaces that are smooth or glossy. The light reflects off the surfaces at an equal, but opposite angle to the source.
3. Retroreflection occurs when surfaces return a portion of the directed light back to its source.

 Now, I don’t believe what so ever that the “leaf-like pattern” is a reflection AT ALL because it is the only part that managed to be “reflected” onto the inside of the ambulance and not onto the window like everything else in question but even if I indulged into it possibility, it would lose all credibility because all of the reflections in the picture are mirror reflections and in order for the “leaf-like pattern” to be in the position it is in and still be a reflection the picture would have to be shot from a different angle on the other side of the ambulance. There are many reasons that I doubt that this image is not a reflection, but to keep this post as short as possible I’ll just start with those two.

As far as TS comments saying “the leaf shapes are somewhat random, and not very artistic” I would have to disagree because for one as I mentioned above this pattern looks like several of MJ’s pics therefore, for anyone to be able to manipulate that “leaf-like pattern” and make it look like MJ I would consider to be very artistic.

Regarding the optical illusion aspect, I believe this whole hoax photo is an optical illusion because the reflections and shadows etc., etc., etc. don’t add up naturally... it’s intention was to convince the general public to buy whatever they were selling NO QUESTIONS ASKED like the media does EVERY SINGLE DAY, NO MATTER WHAT.  
I don’t believe the “leaf-like pattern” is “the result from a combination of multiple lights and shadows” because of the distance between the rest of the shadows in the ambulance and the objects that they obviously came from compared to the “leaf-like pattern” that is random with no apparent source. Also, going back to the types of reflections, this would be considered a diffuse reflection but in a diffuse reflection the light would scatter in all directions and in this photo we have a very distinct image whether they are leaves or not, not an image of scattered light.  Besides, like TS comments also pointed out; “the “stem” of the main leaf pattern goes vertical, in exactly the place where the paramedic’s arm shadow hits the ambulance compartment wall”; so I suppose the other part of this pattern is just floating in mid air .

In conclusion, I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the “leaf-like pattern” was add into the photo by using photoshop because of the reasons I’ve stated above and photoshop would also explain other questionable aspects of this photo.

I believe the photo of MJ inside the real ambulance 71 was done on the other day (possible at Culver City Studios); whether MJ was actually inside the ambulance, or whether it was a dummy or whatever is irrelevant at this point right now because we’re only basing this picture off of MJ’s likeness and anyone could pull this off with or without the real MJ, any intermediate professional in photoshop could even pull this off with the right tools/equipment. I believe that on June 25 several pictures were taken to serve as the reflections whether they were taken at the window of ambulance 71, a parked car/suv, the fire truck or any other tinted window in the area is also irrelevant because all they needed was the reflection (that way the final product would definitely coincide with the time and day). This also could explain why there are different shadows on the red car. There was more than one camera person there, so it’s likely that there is more than one shot of this red car and with photoshop you can easily blend different pictures together to make it look like one solid image; actually to me the shadows looks more like a photoshop trick than anything else because they’re differences aren’t that different. Once Ben and his crew got back to their office they then cropped the background picture which is the ambulance pic (because the background picture is always the darkest), added the “leaf-like pattern” (possibly using a paint brush) which I would assume is the second layer, that’s why it looks more like a part of the background, then for the following layer(s) the reflections were added. Parts of each layer were probably then enhanced, the opacity could of possibly been changed on other parts, a gradient and/or filter could of been added to others as well as numerous other tricks that photoshop can achieve. The images were then merged together to produce the final product (jpeg) that was later released to the media.

I apologize for the long post, but this has been a long time coming and I’ve only scratched the surface of what I think about this whole hoax so I’m just going to try to be patient and let TS lead (I can’t wait to get into the FBI parts though because I have a very plausible theory for that as well.) Please, anyone that reads my post, feel free to question me on any of it, whether you agree or not...I’m not saying I’m right, but I love a challenge and I believe in turn that we will all gain a valuable learning experience.

Much love to all! Xoxo

[MJhasSpoken]

Thanks for your post and welcome...are you TS?...joke...sorry my paranoia was just wearing off.

I like your points but I still don't understand you said the leaf like pattern was the only reflection but so was the red car and the outside...even though that might be photoshopped too.

[GINAFELICIA]

Thanks for your post and welcome...are you TS?...joke...sorry my paranoia was just wearing off.

I can't take this as a joke because I had the same thought.
As I am officialy paranoid, I have no problem in asking the same.

Maybe I'll change my username to paranoid.

[MJhasSpoken]

Thanks for your post and welcome...are you TS?...joke...sorry my paranoia was just wearing off.

I can't take this as a joke because I had the same thought.
As I am officialy paranoid, I have no problem in asking the same.

Maybe I'll change my username to paranoid.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

[DREAMSandTRUTH]

Distraction. This is exactly what I have been thinking about the TS thread as a whole, but I have been hesitant to express my opinion.  Nevertheless, here it is.  Please forgive me in advance, if necessary.

I actually read through all the TIAI info as well as a number of TS’ posts and redirects a couple of months ago as a lurker on this site.  I ultimately chose not to get too wrapped up in TS’ input because it hurt my brain to think about it.

I’ll  explain.  In the past month or so, one of the MJDH members (I don’t remember who) basically posted that she was frustrated with TS’ posts because she felt like his input was just one big circle without end.   I agree.  TS seems to suggest infinite questions (problems) in need of answering and then provides clues (seeming tidbits towards solutions) that keep hoaxers’ attention continually focused on solving questions that, for the most part, can only be answered with best guesses (hence, the never-ending circle).   For one example, if all of TS’ numerology puzzles were suddenly solved, what difference would it make?  In short, what is the overall purpose of TS’ posts?  Some say his input is meant to get members to think for themselves so as not to get distracted (from a bigger picture).  However, the irony is that TS’ info potentially absorbs hoaxers’ attention/thinking (to the extent of craving his posts) to the point that the focus on comprehending his convoluted writing and riddles is in itself a distraction.  This is not to suggest that TS is deliberately creating a distraction (maybe he is, maybe he isn’t).  The point is that absorption in his posts—and thereby, absorption in his way of thinking—is contrary to thinking for one’s self.  
 
It’s all about conscious attention.   That’s my perspective, anyway.  

Thank you for your post, starchild!
I personally find it very possible that TS is deliberately creating a distraction. When I wrote above "Do you mean that someone wants to distract us so we cannot see the important thing?" I actually meant that that "someone" is TS.
Maybe we really should start a new thread about this topic, as Souza suggested. As I see, this is important to many of us.

[Starchild]

Distraction. This is exactly what I have been thinking about the TS thread as a whole, but I have been hesitant to express my opinion.  Nevertheless, here it is.  Please forgive me in advance, if necessary.

I actually read through all the TIAI info as well as a number of TS’ posts and redirects a couple of months ago as a lurker on this site.  I ultimately chose not to get too wrapped up in TS’ input because it hurt my brain to think about it.

I’ll  explain.  In the past month or so, one of the MJDH members (I don’t remember who) basically posted that she was frustrated with TS’ posts because she felt like his input was just one big circle without end.   I agree.  TS seems to suggest infinite questions (problems) in need of answering and then provides clues (seeming tidbits towards solutions) that keep hoaxers’ attention continually focused on solving questions that, for the most part, can only be answered with best guesses (hence, the never-ending circle).   For one example, if all of TS’ numerology puzzles were suddenly solved, what difference would it make?  In short, what is the overall purpose of TS’ posts?  Some say his input is meant to get members to think for themselves so as not to get distracted (from a bigger picture).  However, the irony is that TS’ info potentially absorbs hoaxers’ attention/thinking (to the extent of craving his posts) to the point that the focus on comprehending his convoluted writing and riddles is in itself a distraction.  This is not to suggest that TS is deliberately creating a distraction (maybe he is, maybe he isn’t).  The point is that absorption in his posts—and thereby, absorption in his way of thinking—is contrary to thinking for one’s self.  
 
It’s all about conscious attention.   That’s my perspective, anyway.  

Thank you for your post, starchild!
I personally find it very possible that TS is deliberately creating a distraction. When I wrote above "Do you mean that someone wants to distract us so we cannot see the important thing?" I actually meant that that "someone" is TS.
Maybe we really should start a new thread about this topic, as Souza suggested. As I see, this is important to many of us.

Thank you, DREAMSandTRUTH.  I had been thinking of giving this post a bump to generate thought.  It kind of got lost in the shuffle of more recent posts.

[mjsmyheart]

Thanks for your post and welcome...are you TS?...joke...sorry my paranoia was just wearing off.

I like your points but I still don't understand you said the leaf like pattern was the only reflection but so was the red car and the outside...even though that might be photoshopped too.

No, I'm not TS although I would give anything to trade places with him to be in touch with Michael and know all is well with him  .

What I meant is the "leaf like pattern" is the only questionable reflection on the interior of the ambulance… Everything else is a supposed reflection off of the ambulance window. I hope this makes sense.

P.S. Thanks for the warm welcome

[anewfan]

Thanks for your post and welcome...are you TS?...joke...sorry my paranoia was just wearing off.

I can't take this as a joke because I had the same thought.
As I am officialy paranoid, I have no problem in asking the same.

Maybe I'll change my username to paranoid.

Then you can have 2 accounts and be on the cool list!!  :lol:

[Kristina4LOVE]

I apologize for the long post, but this has been a long time coming and I’ve only scratched the surface of what I think about this whole hoax so I’m just going to try to be patient and let TS lead (I can’t wait to get into the FBI parts though because I have a very plausible theory for that as well.) Please, anyone that reads my post, feel free to question me on any of it, whether you agree or not...I’m not saying I’m right, but I love a challenge and I believe in turn that we will all gain a valuable learning experience.

Much love to all! Xoxo

Hello mjsmyheart!  WELCOME!!!   I really enjoyed reading your post, so here are some questions i wanted to ask you. Same as you i believe that the "leaf-like pattern" is not a reflection, but the question is WHY would they photoshop it into the picture? Why would they want us to see Michael's face in this patter?
Also i would love to hear your theory about FBI, because this thread was supposed to be about Paramedics (real, not real, involved in the hoax, not involved).

L.O.V.E to all!  

[mjsmyheart]

Hello mjsmyheart!  WELCOME!!!   I really enjoyed reading your post, so here are some questions i wanted to ask you. Same as you i believe that the "leaf-like pattern" is not a reflection, but the question is WHY would they photoshop it into the picture? Why would they want us to see Michael's face in this patter?
Also i would love to hear your theory about FBI, because this thread was supposed to be about Paramedics (real, not real, involved in the hoax, not involved).

L.O.V.E to all!  

Hello Kristina4LOVE,
I'm glad you enjoyed the post and I thank you for responding; I've been dying to express my beliefs for soooo long now but had no one to share them with so I appreciate you guys for allowing me to do that.

With regards to your questions...
I believe the "leaf-like pattern" was photoshopped into the picture to act like a pre-test I guess. My belief is based on the following comment from TS comments:

I am going to let you in on another little secret. The leaf pattern is not the most important part of the investigation. Then why did I start with that, and why do I repeatedly bring it up? Because it is a very good example of how to investigate—and more importantly, how NOT to investigate. And in this one sense, the leaf pattern is extremely important. Because if you use the wrong methods with the leaf pattern, then you will probably use wrong methods in other areas of investigation—and that is when it becomes very important.

What I understand from this comment is that the pattern has nothing to do with this hoax (or at least it's an insignificant part.) It's purpose is only to serve as a pre-test so that we can train our brains and condition our ways of thinking for the much larger part of this hoax.

I believe MJ's face was planted into the picture within the 'leaf-like pattern" to further prove that the pattern is a manipulation of photoshop. I'm not as good with numbers as TS and MJ but I would love to know what the odds are that there is clearly an image MJ within the MJ hoax photo  .

In other words what I think TS is trying to say (and I apologize if I am wrong) is how are we supposed to debunk the more serious matters of this hoax (possible FBI involvement, the judicial system, the medical field, etc. which are so much more complicated matters) if we can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that an obvious hoax photo is FAKE!

As far as the FBI, I'm gonna try to keep it breif because I've noticed that once I start writing on this thread my thoughts get ahead of me and by the time I'm done I've written a novel. lol   To be honest, I never really thought about the FBI actually being involved until I read it on this thread, but now that I consider it the FBI involvement would explain soooo much. Now, I haven't done too much reseach on this theory to build a strong case but what I believe is that the paramedics are actually FBI agents that really work as paramedics. What I mean by that, is that when the FBI is working on a mission I would assume they would have their own trained paramedics because of the nature of their cases; I don't think a regular paramedic would have the same advanced training that I assume the FBI paramedics would because the FBI are trained for some of the worst type of situations.

I'm also convinced that the FBI is more likely than not involved because it explains things such as Joe telling LK "I don't know where the body is, THEY won't tell me." Seriously, first of all who else could THEY be? What I got from reading the numerous book I have on MJ is that if Katherine knew then Joe would know too. Now what are the odds that Katherine (Michael's own beloved mother) would not know where her child's body was at all times if he was in fact dead. Besides, didn't other family members "visit the body;" now I understand Joe when he says he doesn't want to remember him like that because burying your own child has to be the hardest thing in the world but that doesn't stop one from knowing where the body is.

Ok, I gonna have to stop there for now because there are sooooo many leads that right now only the FBI could be the answer to IMO and I will be literally typing for days  :shock:

Please share with me your thoughts though because I would love to know what you think about this situation.

Much love xoxo

[GINAFELICIA]

Thanks for your post and welcome...are you TS?...joke...sorry my paranoia was just wearing off.

I can't take this as a joke because I had the same thought.
As I am officialy paranoid, I have no problem in asking the same.

Maybe I'll change my username to paranoid.

Then you can have 2 accounts and be on the cool list!!  :lol:

I thought I already was on the "cool" list for other reasons   :lol:

Anyway, I don't need 2 accounts, as I have troubles managing ONE personality   :mrgreen:

[GINAFELICIA]

@mjsmyheart I wanna tell you that MJ is my heart too

I agree with your ideas.

Oh, and hello TS, aren't you watching.......
Come on, just say hello.....