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[suspicious mind]

ok if the focus is supposed to be on the paramedics why bring up the handle :? is that to say look at the details or to confuse ?

[Im_convincedmjalive]

suspicious mind wrote:
so then why is ts preaching to the choir?

I am not sure if you meant Why is TS the one doing the preaching. I am going to respond to this though with some posts that show Why TS is preaching to us. There are lessons to be learned and TS has been from day one trying to teach us. There is alot of information in his posts that tell us WHY. It helps to review or read for the first time all of his previous updates, posts and reveals to get a better understanding.  ;)

Peace
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&p=308964#p308964

TS_comments wrote:
In this process, I don't want anyone to accept or reject what I present merely because of who presents it; as I have always said, go by the evidence itself—regardless of who presents it. And in fact, others should bring in evidence they have found (and indeed, many are doing this already in this thread, which is good); don't just wait for me to explain everything.

To put it another way: I may challenge true theories, and/or I may lend support to false theories. In fact, I will usually have at least two different theories for each step. And as we follow the theories: we may find one hitting a dead end, while another flows nicely with no serious difficulties.

Most importantly, I want to inspire critical analysis; even more important than the subject itself, is how you approach it. Unfortunately, many hoax investigators have gone down the road of supporting the hoax with very flimsy evidence at best, and often just plain incorrect evidence. This type of approach does not help anyone; it only makes unbelievers ridicule us as crazy (well, maybe we are  ). But seriously, we want to go by solid evidence that will challenge unbelievers, and perhaps even hold up in a court of law.

Critical investigation means to approach the subject as if you were trying to DISPROVE the hoax—not trying to come up with anything and everything imaginable to support the hoax (or supposedly support it). And if you TRY to disprove something, but can't find any reasonable way around it, then you PROBABLY have some good solid evidence. Also, if you have at least two or more strong evidences pointing to the same conclusion, then that is most likely the truth. But it's not a good idea to base any conclusion on only one piece of evidence, even if it seems to be a fairly strong point.

viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&p=309638#p309638

TS_comments wrote:
As I said before, your METHOD or APPROACH to investigation is far more important than the ambulance photo or other parts of the hoax. Not merely for investigating this hoax, but for your own good in your entire life, these are extremely valuable skills--and this forum and thread give you an opportunity to learn and practice these skills in an environment that is friendly (or at least should be, and usually is). Part of the good investigation skills here, is learning how to critically examine things from the OPPOSITE perspective than your own belief (which in this case is the hoax). We have a term for people who are unwilling to look at or even consider things from somebody else's perspective, and that term is "prejudice"--and you already know what MJ thinks about prejudice.

viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18185&p=311334#p311334

TS_comments wrote:
In the previous thread, I mentioned that it's good to have at least two or more strong evidences pointing to the same conclusion; and we now have at least four strong points, indicating that the ambulance photo is fake—even after some (including me) have tried to play unbeliever, and debunk whatever we can. Here are those four strong points, with links to some of the evidence. People are still welcome to try and debunk them if they can; but please read at least the information in the links below, before trying to debunk them.

#1. Ben's slip: "Chris, and the other people that were there that day and the other d---- and uhhh, and uhhh ----"
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&start=350#p309886; viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&start=600#p311109.

#2. In the video of the ambulance, the monitor/screen is clearly on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o-yZt7yERk. In the photo, the monitor/screen is not on viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&p=310867&#p310867.

#3. The shadows on the red car in the video do not match the shadows on the red car in the photo viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&p=310880&#p310880; viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&p=310880&#p310901.

#4. The paramedics did not recognize MJ; they said it looked like an old man, maybe a hospice patient http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/27/paramedic ... e-arrived/ http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/michael-j ... ath-week1/. This report of the paramedics does not fit with the face we see in the ambulance photo. If the paramedics are in on the hoax, and what they said was scripted: then the ambulance photo is fake, one way or another. And if the paramedics are not in on the hoax, then what they said was true—and does not fit with what we see in the ambulance photo, which would still mean that it is fake viewtopic.php?f=145&t=18053&p=309760&#p309760. Either way, then (paramedics in on it or not): the photo is fake; so the only question is what method was used to make the phony photo.

The first three of these four points listed above indicate that the photo was planned and staged in advance, rather than merely editing MJ's face into a photo that was actually taken through the ambulance window on 6-25-09. This is why I started our investigation process with the ambulance photo; now we know that it was planned and staged in advance, so we have a good platform upon which we can build our next level of investigation.

Please remember to use common sense, in addition to forensic investigation and raw data analysis.

viewtopic.php?f=125&t=9891

TS wrote:
5-8. Zone for MJ Info

Another TMZ article, just a few days before, was titled: "Conrad Murray - Michael Was Alive at UCLA" http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/30/conrad-mu ... ful-death/. Here again, if you accept the whole story, then forget the hoax; because the whole story is discussing when MJ died (at home, or UCLA)—it's not discussing if MJ died.

Or you can connect the dots, and recognize that "Michael was alive" is the main clue—and much of the rest is unnamed or unverified "sources". Anything that is not readily verifiable, and especially anything that is unnamed "sources", should go straight in the garbage.

This is part of what Michael is trying to teach us. We are not to blindly trust tabloid media—or even mainstream media. Yet, just like TMZ, at times there is reliable and valuable information in the media.

For example, video interviews; it is very easy to fabricate false information in writing, but it is much harder to fabricate a video interview with someone. And even if someone did create a fake video interview (using a double, or a computer-generated image, etc): the real person would probably hear about it, and deny that it was really him.

And there are other methods to help establish what information is reliable. Twitter has a system of verifying celebrities; so a tweet from a verified account is most likely a reliable source. The Twitter for ALLJACK5ONS was not verified (it's a group account); but we know it is reliable, because other verified accounts in the family have confirmed it.

Another type of fairly reliable information, is when the media (accidentally) says things which actually support the conspiracy view of things. For example, when local media initially reported bombs found in the Murrah Federal building on April 19, 1995, and then later the mainstream media said that there were no other bombs—we know that both stories are not reliable http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B4vbO67Bp4.

Common sense tells us that the initial and local reports are reliable; but then the big guys came in and controlled the mass media, and overrode those initial reliable reports. This happened also with the JFK junior assassination, and many other cases such as 911, etc http://michaeljacksonhoaxforum.com/phpb ... 30&p=27572.

The corrupt media expects us to believe that professionals found additional bombs in the Murrah building, got equipment and experts to deactivate these bombs, and then later they realized that there were no bombs in the building! Supposedly these professionals had been unable to tell the difference between a bomb and a grilled cheese sandwich—and they didn't even catch their mistake, until they were trying to deactivate the sandwiches!!!  Sorry, but I think that this story is the cheesy one; and the first reports from the local media are far more reliable.

And at this point, I should mention that as far as possible: TIAI Revealed, and the Updates, have used the above mentioned and similar types of reliable sources for information. So don't accept something just because TIAI says it; but on the other hand, don't fail to distinguish between reliable and unreliable sources and documentation. Rejecting reliable information isn't much if any better (maybe worse) than accepting unreliable information. Some people believe everything (gullible), others believe nothing (stubborn); if we want the truth, we must find a balance between those extremes.

[MJhasSpoken]

Do I remember we were out for a proof that would stand a trial? ...

Yes, Grace, that is exactly one of my reasons for posting this.

We do want to enjoy this investigation, and get some laughs now and then--and use our imagination, etc.  However, we also need to be careful not to confuse the fun and imaginary with good solid evidence that will hold up in court.

Souza was right, I merely cropped the rectangle handle part of the Ambulance1.jpg

Are we SURE that the leaf-pattern is Photoshopped into the picture?  Is there good, SOLID evidence that leaf-pattern overlaps the handle?  Or could the mind be imagining a leaf-pattern overlap, just as others (who did not know the source of the cropped picture) saw several other things in it?

Here it is again.

Reading what TS wrote again and what Grace said, maybe we have to find how we can prove (with this rectangle pic) that the leaf pattern is photo-shopped...but we can't just do it by looking and saying 'it is photo-shopped because of this' or 'it isn't photo-shopped because of this'. We need evidence somehow such as comparing other things not just by using this photo or this image but by bringing in other things as well.

Anyone got any ideas?

[2good2btrue]

Maybe the "other day" was night time...that's why there's a shadow of the paramedics arms, near the leaf pattern....  possibly caused by using a flash of the camera !!

The real video of the Ambulance backing out, was really hard to see, but it was what I didn't see that aroused my suspicion.

There is definitely lots of similar leaf patterns inside the front entrance of MJ's house.  I believe this picture was taken before the ambulance even left the property...

People have said that there is a tunnel running from Elvis Presleys home, to Carolwood Dve...

Could it be possible that Elvis Presley actually died that day ???  MJ could have had him staying with him for a while while he was sick ???

[suspicious mind]

[youtube:1cfmf6t6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A09tRR6ppKQ&feature=player_embedded#at=32[/youtube:1cfmf6t6]

ok i am not sure where this video came into the thread or the relevance of what i think i see but it is bugging me. either i am seeing things or both of these paremedics have the same places ( beginning signs of vitaligo, as michael ) on their hands. look carefully when the one is holding the backboard at about 1;44 and then when they are going through the first aid kit. also when they are showing the blow up splint thing. have i started to see things where they are not. is vitaligo that common ? does this look like the same as we have seen pics of michaels hands or am i hoaxied. :?  :oops:  :lol:  :(

[~Souza~]

Do I remember we were out for a proof that would stand a trial? ...

Yes, Grace, that is exactly one of my reasons for posting this.

We do want to enjoy this investigation, and get some laughs now and then--and use our imagination, etc.  However, we also need to be careful not to confuse the fun and imaginary with good solid evidence that will hold up in court.

Souza was right, I merely cropped the rectangle handle part of the Ambulance1.jpg

Are we SURE that the leaf-pattern is Photoshopped into the picture?  Is there good, SOLID evidence that leaf-pattern overlaps the handle?  Or could the mind be imagining a leaf-pattern overlap, just as others (who did not know the source of the cropped picture) saw several other things in it?

Here it is again.

I think I get what you mean. When you look at the handle zoomed and pixeled like this, you see that it doesn't continue, that it doesn't overlap the transition from can door to handle.

But the leaf pattern isn't just one piece, so it doesn't have to be connected. When you zoom out a little, you see it's part of the leaf pattern, which get's darker when there is a darker background, like on the right side where it get's darker with the shadow behind it.

[~Souza~]

I don't get the people complaining in here that TS is playing games. TS never asked anyone to look if they see faces hidden anywhere, he asked if anyone coulf prove with this zoom, that the leaf pattern indeed overlaps. He is not talking BS, he is trying to make us come to a coherent theory with actual evidence. Telling non-believers that you see a face hidden in a shadow on the ambulance picture, doesn't convince anyone that MJ is still alive.

Besides that, if you don't like the discussion, simply skip it. You are calling BS without understanding what the purpose is.

[scorpionchik]

I am clueless of details of ambulance photo discussion, but I got a question.
Who would bother to photoshop original ambulance picture overlapping leafs on the door handle? Where did we get those pictures? Source. Isn't it youtube? Maybe some people have re-uploaded and changed original picture or something like that? Cause if you search "Michael Jackson ambulance picture, or photos, or video" on youtube, so many of them out there.

[2good2btrue]

I have a question.  Could this picture have been taken at night or early dusk with a flash? That would be more likely to cause a reflection inside the ambulance.

Definitely an overlap of two photos...one of the ambulance, and one of the background scenery, have been overlapped to create this illusion, and help to coverup the original patient...

[youtube:1tgw5d8f]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZyiUaQbOs&feature=player_embedded[/youtube:1tgw5d8f]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZyiUaQbOs&feature=player_embedded

[suspicious mind]

I don't get the people complaining in here that TS is playing games. TS never asked anyone to look if they see faces hidden anywhere, he asked if anyone coulf prove with this zoom, that the leaf pattern indeed overlaps. He is not talking BS, he is trying to make us come to a coherent theory with actual evidence. Telling non-believers that you see a face hidden in a shadow on the ambulance picture, doesn't convince anyone that MJ is still alive.

Besides that, if you don't like the discussion, simply skip it. You are calling BS without understanding what the purpose is.

dear dear dear souza i don't know if you are indicating me or not but since i did participate in the little bs segment if feel compelled to respond. i really don't think ts minds a little healthy scepticism. if he did he would have been gone a long time ago. besides if he is in earnest trying to teach us then he is trying to give us the tools with which to be a witness . (kind of like a preacher  ;)  ) .and if he knows anything about the bible then he surely knows about thomas  ;) now this is the part that is gonna turn your crank, it is just my opinion but it seems part of the ongoing problem with the ts thing is that everytime someone questions you come to his defense.  can you not see how that might raise a few questions in an area where some are  already  suspicious ? i hope you will consider what i am saying and not  choose to react  in a negative way.

now i have a question about this stuff that you might be able to answer. i am not techie , as i have confessed quite often  :oops:  when i look at the video from the fire station there is much reflection going on. at one point i was looking at it and stopping and starting throughtout. there was a point when the video segwayed from one part to another i happened to stop there , the images overlapped. now is it possible that someone could stop the video as i did and then do a what is it called screen shot and capture it as a still? and if that is the case could that mean that it was actually done with a video and not with the othere type of camera as it was supposed to be?  after this i guess it would be best if i do avoid this thread as i don't really understand much of the technical stuff and only find it frustrating and perhaps i in turn frustrate others.

thanks for your time and i hope your patience . :D

[AnaMarcia]

I don't get the people complaining in here that TS is playing games. TS never asked anyone to look if they see faces hidden anywhere, he asked if anyone coulf prove with this zoom, that the leaf pattern indeed overlaps. He is not talking BS, he is trying to make us come to a coherent theory with actual evidence. Telling non-believers that you see a face hidden in a shadow on the ambulance picture, doesn't convince anyone that MJ is still alive.

Besides that, if you don't like the discussion, simply skip it. You are calling BS without understanding what the purpose is.

dear dear dear souza i don't know if you are indicating me or not but since i did participate in the little bs segment if feel compelled to respond. i really don't think ts minds a little healthy scepticism. if he did he would have been gone a long time ago. besides if he is in earnest trying to teach us then he is trying to give us the tools with which to be a witness . (kind of like a preacher  ;)  ) .and if he knows anything about the bible then he surely knows about thomas  ;) now this is the part that is gonna turn your crank, it is just my opinion but it seems part of the ongoing problem with the ts thing is that everytime someone questions you come to his defense.  can you not see how that might raise a few questions in an area where some are  already  suspicious ? i hope you will consider what i am saying and not  choose to react  in a negative way.

now i have a question about this stuff that you might be able to answer. i am not techie , as i have confessed quite often  :oops:  when i look at the video from the fire station there is much reflection going on. at one point i was looking at it and stopping and starting throughtout. there was a point when the video segwayed from one part to another i happened to stop there , the images overlapped. now is it possible that someone could stop the video as i did and then do a what is it called screen shot and capture it as a still? and if that is the case could that mean that it was actually done with a video and not with the othere type of camera as it was supposed to be?  after this i guess it would be best if i do avoid this thread as i don't really understand much of the technical stuff and only find it frustrating and perhaps i in turn frustrate others.

thanks for your time and i hope your patience . :D

:o  :o  :o  :o  :o  :o  :o  :o  :o  :o  :o  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock: :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :roll:

[navibl]

Wow!!...Well, in TS and Souza's defense I would have to say, it appears as though what readers and participants are looking for are just straight out answers.  Just spelling it all out very directly and let's get on to Michael jumping out in front of the cameras and saying "Well did we have fun here"?

But as I see it there are no easy answers in this thing.  It is about Life and Death.  And in a court of law they are going to throw things out there for the defense to answer such as ...do you recognize this, or have you seen this before and can you prove your statement.  Those witnesses had better be prepared to give precise and direct evidence or someone goes to jail.

So if it appears that it is to Hot in here, this is a walk in the park compared to the real thing.  As far as the pic of the cow manure, all I can say is Thank God you were not on Michael's defense team and part of the witness list in 2005.   Patience and understanding is what it takes to uncover the truths here not sarcasm, frustration OR BS.

I would imagine if TS were to just throw it all down here today in front of everyone, there would be so many question thrown back at him and then he would still have to go through all these steps to try and give proof because that would be the next thing that people would be looking for. So I would think the logical way to handle it is to have everyone think through the proof which has many layers.  And since TS has the answers and we don't it would be better to just observe if you don't have answers than to be critical of what is presented.   I have been wrong about several ideas that I have had, but I am here to learn. Quick and easy answers will not be found.

Let's do it with L.O.V.E.
PS. I am sure I may have offended some which is not the intent, but I love you anyway. These are my thoughts.

[GINAFELICIA]

At this point I'm lost.
No graduation untill we solve the dark rectangle?

[all4loveandbelieve]

Does anyone recognize this?

Answer to come later........

Here is a clue to help you:   It rhymes with TS...  8-)

wait !!! i think i see a face in it !

And a leaf pattern.... :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I hope the munching man isn't eating what's in that pic.  :lol:
That thing is on speed.  :lol:

if it rhymes with TS CAN IT BE BS?  :lol:  :lol:

[Ijustcantstoplovingu]

At this point I'm lost.
No graduation untill we solve the dark rectangle?

I have to agree with you also,  :?   I am totally lost ;)  :roll:  :oops:

Such confusion dont it make you want to scream!!!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: